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Making Moves

Chad is reenergized and back after another stint in Europe, Joel is drinking Corona's on a beach in Mexico, and Mr. ATS (Peter Gold) slides into the guest host seat to talk news, moves, and we answer questions like....

Let's do this!


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INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad (25s):

Gonna be a path in motion. All I need is some page up cash. Take the platform high St. Elmo's fire. Holy shit. I think I blacked out there for a minute. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, where today we will be catching you up on all the news, money and acquisitions you missed out on. Okay. So that's a lot, maybe not all of that, but we'll do our best. I'm your host, Chad 'man in motion' Sowash. And today we are Cheeseless, but I am bringing the gold baby, Peter Gold. That is, and guess what? Mr. ATM, Mr. ATS himself will be joining us.

Chad (1m 5s):

So sit back, relax and stay tuned because we will be right back. Oh yeah. The eighties Peter, the eighties. Oh yeah. You know, you had that on your playlist. You have it on your Spotify playlist right now. Don't you Peter?

Peter (1m 25s):

I don't even have Spotify.

Chad (1m 27s):

Oh my God. Oh dude. So Peter, Mr. ATS Gold. How's it hanging? How are you doing?

Peter (1m 34s):

Yeah. Yeah. Not bad. Not bad. A bit tired today.

Chad (1m 37s):

Tired from what, what have you been doing that has tired you out?

Peter (1m 40s):

I've been at my bike today. It was a bit of an epic ride in it. The thing is I knew it was a big ride, but it didn't quite turn out. Well, it was kind of, it did turn out how I expected and I knew it would be bad, so it was bad. And so, but the problem is I knew I had to get back for you and I left late.

Chad (2m 1s):

Your left late, but you made it, you made it in your all knackered out.

Peter (2m 4s):

It was good even though I'll tell you, it was, it was a dilemma.

Chad (2m 7s):

Oh yeah. How so?

Peter (2m 9s):

Well, about six hours in, I was saving my cheese sandwich. And have you seen the film, the War Horse?

Chad (2m 17s):

Yeah. It's been awhile ago, but yeah.

Peter (2m 19s):

Do you remember the start where you've got the horse and the boy at the farm?

Chad (2m 25s):

Yeah, uh huh.

Peter (2m 26s):

That was filmed on location in Dartmoor?

Chad (2m 29s):

Oh, no shit.

Peter (2m 30s):

It's called Ditsworthy Warren Farm. And that's exactly where I was going today to have my cheese sandwich, But yeah, time was ticking because I was late and I'm riding along and I'm thinking I'm not going to make it to Ditsworthy and the pub and get back for Chad. And so I'm kind of riding along, I think I'm Chad or cheese? Chad or cheese? And I did not. I thought, hang on. I'm supposed to be Chad and cheese obvious. So anyway, made it to the pub. I mean the last descent down to the pub below is a real humdinger at descent, rocky gnarly, fully off type thing. And you know how you should never think about bad things happening?

Chad (3m 10s):

Yes, you'd never do that shit. Cause it's going to happen.

Peter (3m 11s):

You get a puncture coming down here. Yeah, no, I didn't. I didn't go. So I got to the pub, I had my beer. I'd already inhaled my cheese sandwich. Cause I didn't go to the Ditsworthy Warrens cause I had to get back for you. And yeah. So here I am eight hours later after riding my bike I'm here.

Chad (3m 28s):

That's how important I am people. That is how important I am. We had to come back for Chad. So that's he could, he could guest host on Chad and Cheese. So I am, I'm damned excited to be back on the mic. Cheeseman is vacationing on the beach in Mexico somewhere. I am still in a haze after being in fucking Europe for the last three weeks, which was a blast by the way. So I wanted to make sure listeners out there that I brought a guest on who had some, you know, a good amount of industry experience, but even more so opinions. So that's why I called Mr. ATS, who was just on the show about a month or so ago, was it Peter?

Chad (4m 8s):

He received some pretty damn good fanfare. I think he paid for it, but no matter it doesn't matter for all those listeners who might've missed the it's Mr. ATS podcast, first and foremost, listen to it after this, give them a quick Twitter bio about you. Who is Mr. ATS?

Peter (4m 26s):

Mr. ATS is me, obviously. Built an ATS back in 1999. Sold that business, been working in the industry ever since, in blogging, analysts, worked for some of the big vendors. And yeah, and I know I'm just Mr. ATS.

Chad (4m 40s):

Like who, who are some of the big vendors?

Peter (4m 43s):

Worked for Loomis and worked for Cornerstone. And I do some consulting work for, Toleo, Job Partners and some of the smaller vendors.

Chad (4m 53s):

Dropping those names. I love it. I love it. Well, shit. Let's go ahead and transition into shout outs. I want to first go and say shout out to Europe who is doing vaccination passports and proof of testing the right way. We flew into Paris. We spent a week in Malta. We spent a week in Budapest, another week in Tavira Portugal. Then a couple, a few days back in Paris before we came back to the US and I got to say, dude, it was fucking easy. And it was much different than the 1940s version that we have here in the United States, where they're like, show me your papers. It was all on your phone, all digital QR codes.

Chad (5m 36s):

It was easy shit. So I got to give a shout out to Europe for doing vaccination passports. Right? Have you traveled at all? Have you had to deal with them or?

Peter (5m 44s):

I've been to Scotland and Wales and they were different to England when it came to a COVID. I mean, of course England, Boris has done an amazing job because he's such an amazing leader.

Chad (5m 59s):


Peter (5m 59s):

Yeah, completely. Everybody's now panicking and getting the boost or trying to get the booster because there's nobody to deliver the boosters. So I went for my booster yesterday and my 2:30 appointment was going to was delayed by two hours.

Chad (6m 12s):

Wow. Damn dude. And you guys, I mean, you're above what we are here in the US with regard to a vaccination percentage. And it's weird because we, I think depending on where you are in the states, but I think this is pretty much standard throughout. If you want to go get a shot, you can get a shot. If you want your booster, you're not going to have a problem getting in to get the booster. So it's weird to hear that a country like the UK or countries like the UK are actually having issues.

Peter (6m 41s):

Yeah, well it's kind of what you'd expect from Boris really? Isn't it?

Chad (6m 47s):

So you have any Shout outs for us?

Peter (6m 48s):

Oh, I do, I was going to have a shout-out for Olivia, my favorite splat bot.

Chad (6m 53s):

Oh yeah. You're not, you're not a, you're not a paradox. Olivia splat bot fan.

Peter (6m 57s):

I don't really mind chatbots. I just think, you know, if it's not always appropriate and if you're going to use a chat bot at least get it right?

Chad (7m 4s):

Right. So what's get it right look like?

Peter (7m 4s):

Don't ask open-ended questions in a single field text box, when somebody's on their phone. You can, some of the questions, like how long have you been in the industry? And that's absolutely fine, you know, a long time or 20 years or whatever, but then say, what is it that you think makes a good XYZ? I mean, it's like, seriously, you want me to answer that to a pseudo human being chat bot? On my phone?

Chad (7m 32s):

So is there voice, is there availability for voice to text or even leaving regular voice audio messages?

Peter (7m 39s):

Nope, not that I can see anyway. I mean, maybe there is further down the process. There may be, but I just think at the top end of the application process, if you've got a job that's quite senior and you're not going to get many people apply for it anyway, really all you need is their name, their email address and their mobile number. And maybe ask them two questions. Yeah.

Chad (7m 58s):

Yeah. That's not really a Paradox/Olivia issue though. Is it that's more of a process? The company? Well, I, yeah, well, I mean the company - the company's process is all fucked up and they're asking way too many questions, especially on the front end. Yeah.

Peter (8m 11s):

But you would expect the tech vendor when it's using its own tech to be a Paragon of virtue, as far as how you set it up to be.

Chad (8m 21s):

So what you're saying is Paradox actually doing the hiring themselves. You've gone through that process and that wasn't quite as slick as you thought it would be.

Peter (8m 29s):

Correct. I thought it would be far better. And that actually I don't. I mean, if you're on LinkedIn, why not just have easier just apply on LinkedIn, but of course there'd be no need for Olivia then. And that's a real paradox, isn't it?

Chad (8m 41s):

It is a real paradox. It really is. More shout outs on my side. I want to shout out to listeners who connect. We appreciate you guys out there, not just listening, but also engaging whether it's connecting on Twitter, following us or connecting on LinkedIn, Antonio Arias Lopez who's the global head of talent, acquisition, and employer brand at MBCC group over in Germany. He loves the podcast. Thanks for listening, Antonio. Peer Goudsmit over in the Netherlands, connected with me on LinkedIn, said that he's a big fan and we're obviously big with the Dutch. Go figure? Sarah Calorie from Market Drayton. That's over there in England.

Chad (9m 23s):

She loves the podcast. Thanks for listening. We love our listeners all over the world. Thanks for connecting and following us on social media and keep on listening. Plus get your friends, family, coworkers, and anyone, you know, to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese wherever they listen to podcasts or go to Last but not least. I got to give a shout out to scotch. Everybody loves scotch, right?

Peter (9m 47s):

I was thinking about them as well. To be honest, he was giving away free whiskey. I've not worked out what I need to do to get some yet, but I did see that was giving free whiskey away.

Chad (9m 55s):

I'll tell you exactly what you have to do as Adam Gordon would actually put it, not just scotch it's scotch malted whiskey with a value of a thousand dollars per bottle. Go to to register for the expensive stuff. Again, a thousand bucks a bottle! We're giving away scotch the expensive stuff at If you want some bourbon, some other types of whiskey. That's cool to go to Sovren sponsors, free whiskey to your doorstep once a month. Not so much in beer from That's right. A bunch of craft beers on your doorstep or who knows?

Chad (10m 38s):

Maybe you want a comfy t-shirt ChadCheese t-shirt again, go to, or just go to Chad click on free in the upper right-hand corner. And that Peter is how you get the free shit.

Peter (10m 51s):

I'll get some free beer later then.

Chad (10m 52s):

I love it. I love it. So you ready to talk some topics?

Peter (10m 57s):

That's why we're here, I think isn't it? Is that it are or are we done now? Can I go?

Chad (11m 2s):

And you can't go because it's time for topics. All right, right out of the barrel smoking hot Page up acquires Path in Motion.

Peter (11m 12s):

PathMotion. Chad, no in

Chad (11m 14s):

Pathogen. I keep hearing the man in motion from St. Elmo's fire. That's why. Okay, so

Peter (11m 19s):

It's your Spotify list again, don't have Spotify and you won't get names wrong.

Chad (11m 23s):

Well, that's why I have guys like you to keep me straight. It's not that big of a deal. Okay. So from the press release, here we go. Quote "PageUp acquires PathMotion, a pioneering SAAS platform that allows organizations to create highly relevant employee generated content to attract and engage quality applicants. PathMotion's sophisticated AI powered discussion platform makes it easy for organizations to connect candidates to real employees and share authentic employee content. With a single click, organizations can create and share on brand employee generated content with prospective job seekers.

Chad (12m 10s):

PathMotion compliments, PageUp's, acquisition of clench recruitment, marketing software." So Peter. PageUp, do you think adding PathMotion, especially after the Clinch acquisition to the portfolio was a must?

Peter (12m 22s):

To be honest, I've never really understood PathMotion. I've never really understood the real value that it offers. And you know, you're, there'll always be anecdotal examples of where people have bought it and had a play with it. And I've had a look around some of their customers and I don't think it's particularly great experience and I don't see the point of it. And the fact that PageUp is saying Clinch and PathMotion will be integrated with their own ATS, but still available to be bought standalone, to integrate with other ATSs. I can't see that happening. To be honest, Clinch made sense. You know, Clinch is a career site, CMS, and it's kind of expected now of ATS vendors to have a career site, but there's a massive disconnect between what I would call a true CMS and what an ATS offers, you know, and I've been there with Hire Pad that was a full CMS with ATS integration.

Peter (13m 19s):

So we would build a career site, all the extra pages, feed all of the jobs and multiple ATS into one place. The candidate had a better experience. So people like Tribepad, for example, they try to be that standalone social career sites. When they tried to get ATS integration, you know, that almost killed them off. So I said, well, if you can't beat them, join them. So they did and they became an ATS and the rest of the state's history. But I think PageUp hoovering up kind of wastes and strays won't bring them success. And for me, like I say, PathMotions never made a lot of sense. Clinch does, but PathMotion, I don't get why, I really don't.

Chad (13m 57s):

So one thing, many marketing platforms are missing is content generation. And this seems to majorly bolster the value of Clinch. Yeah, you can have a career site that you create and then you want to be able to fill it with content. But for the most part companies, they suck at creating content and they're fucking horrible at creating content. So this platform could perspectively help them get past that obstacle and being able to allow their employees to create authentic quote, unquote, "authentic" content for them to actually share not just on their website, but also to be able to press out via the socials.

Chad (14m 40s):

So do you agree that most of these quote unquote "marketing platforms" are really just infrastructure, they missed the big key of a content generation partner.

Peter (14m 50s):

You see, I don't necessarily agree that we need loads of content.

Chad (14m 53s):

What's going to bring people jobs? Is that it is that the only content?

Peter (14m 56s):

If you look at where the traffic is on a career site, it's all around job search. Now, once people get an interview, then they will go and look at content. But do you think people really believe all the kind of marketing bullshit that companies put on their career site about themselves? No. Is PathMotion the answer? I don't think so because that content needs to be kept up to date. And when I had a quick look at one, in one example, I just thought I kind of expect it to be real time and it wasn't real time. It was kind of, you know, here's a question you can ask, choose who you want to ask the question to and God send it off and they'll get back in touch with you.

Peter (15m 37s):

But it was just, the whole experience was really clunky and horrible and not really seamless. And didn't really make me think, that's impressive. It just made me think that's a bit 2003. So, and I think this whole authenticity aspect, I don't think people buy it. It's just, for the majority of jobs, people saying, I just want a job. And I think if you get to a point where if you're say somebody on a 80K a year or more, you're quite an experienced person, you're in quite a senior role, then you're more likely to talk to people in the organization and find information out or talk to your friends or go into Glassdoor.

Peter (16m 20s):

So for me, I think we need to take a step back from this massive content generation element of the career site. And just say, let's make the process as slick and easy as possible. You can look at your traffic, you can look at your data and you can say, how many people come to the career site? How many first timers, how many bounds, how many go to the job search? How many go to the content? And are they returning people which will kind of support the fact that if probably people who've already applied for jobs and they're coming back now, to look for some more information. So I just think we've got it very wrong. And if we can't get the basics, right, which is find a job, apply for a job, maybe use a chat bot to apply, find and apply for a job, get that bit right.

Peter (17m 0s):

If we can't get the basics, right? What's the point of the content?

Chad (17m 3s):

I totally agree, but I don't think this is an or scenario, right? I don't think it's content 'or' a slick process. I think what we've done over the years, is we've come up with these marketing campaigns that have been real shit. They might've been too polished. They might not have seemed genuine or authentic, but what we didn't do, which is exactly what you're saying is we didn't have a great process for once. They were interested to get in to the application process or at least into the system. So it's, it's really been a shit UX, no matter how much good content you might've put together. I think personally, this is an 'and' scenario. You need to be able to, from a recruitment marketing standpoint, you need to be able to touch those people who care and they want to learn more about you.

Chad (17m 47s):

And you've got to do it with good content.

Peter (17m 49s):

Well, you gotta have the right content. You've gotta have the right content that people want. So for example, hourly workers, and this was done, and this, I've done a survey on this. And they basically said, we'd like a pay calculator. I want to know if I apply for this job doing 20 hours a week, how much will I earn? How much would I take home? That's the kind of stuff those workers want. Whereas people who are going to work in head office, yes. They want to say, have a peek over the fence. They want to say, well, okay, let me look what it's like in your office.

Chad (18m 18s):


Peter (18m 19s):

Let me meet some people. And let me have a look at where I'll be working maybe.

Chad (18m 26s):


Peter (18m 26s):

So content is important, but it's about getting the right content that the target audience want. And I don't think we've got that right. I don't think we're intelligent enough or investigative enough to actually say, you know, this is what our target audience wants, and this is what we're going to give them. Everybody just does the same. Every career site looks the same.

Chad (18m 47s):

And why do you think that is? Because they're all having agencies who are, like-minded putting them together for them.

Peter (18m 58s):

Yeah. And everybody and talent acquisition people are sheep.

Chad (19m 1s):

Okay. So let's, let's move toward PathMotion's, footprint, Asia, PACrim, Europe, the US, they're looking at this broad scope, right? I mean, PathMotion, PageUp is fairly big, but they're not really a household name in the US. Shouldn't it? Do you think that they should focus on specific regions and try to own those regions before trying to get a scatter shot at this? Or do you think, Hey, go for everything?

Peter (19m 28s):

I think, well, my understanding of PathMotion, of PageUp is that they are very strong in Asia Pac and typically American vendors are not strong in Asia Pac.

Chad (19m 36s):


Peter (19m 36s):

So I would focus on that region and become the defacto HCM in that region.

Chad (19m 48s):

I think a company like PathMotion, more than likely this is a clearance rack type of a buy. It's something that actually fits on the content creation end of Clinch. And again, we both think Clinch was a great buy for them, but I think they need, definitely no question, they need content creation ability, but also they need to focus on the path to application as well. Either way it doesn't matter. There's a great soundtrack for these guys.

Chad (20m 29s):

All right. Going on to our next story. Okay. Kids. So if you didn't listen to the latest European Chad and Cheese podcast, entitled TextKernel Lands a Whopper, Joel, Lieven and Hung Lee talked about this next acquisition, but I believe they left a lot of daylight in talking about the deal, not to mention Peter, I knew you were coming on and I wanted to hear what you had to think. So here it comes. Dutch recruitment software from Textkernel backed by private equity firm Main Capital Partners has acquired US parsing and matching rival Sovren, also friend and sponsor the show.

Chad (21m 12s):

Main Capital Partners said a deal that aims to expand its business across North America and Asia Pac and strengthen its technology base. Sovren based in Texas delivers a similar AI software to Textkernel will boost the Dutch firms position in the so-called search and match technology used by recruiters to screen candidates. It's private equity owner, Main Capital Partners said in the statement, the deal is valued at 30 to 40 million euros. That's about around 45 million US dollars, first and foremost, congrats to longtime sponsor Robert Ruff and the crew over at Sovren.

Chad (21m 53s):

Peter this is a much different conversation than we just had on content. Your thoughts on this space and also this acquisition.

Peter (22m 3s):

Yeah, I think it's a great acquisition for Textkernel. They're both very solid companies, obviously Sovren a very US centric. Textkernel very much MEA focused, although they have got business in the U S and they've both been doing this for 20 odd years each, so they know what they're doing. Kind of, you always have to wonder, is it two old timers that make shovels getting together to eat out the final remnants of a declining industry? You know, CV parsing, what will that even be a thing in a few years' time? Or will they pivot because the still life in the old dog and they could become the world's largest and oldest with the biggest dataset AI skills engine or something along those lines.

Chad (22m 44s):

Yeah. Well, one thing that you have to remember is that you can't get the data. If you don't parse the data. And one of the hardest things to do with all this shit data that we get from job descriptions and resumes, what's the worst content that's out there today, job descriptions and resumes, the things that matter most. Well, these two organizations Sovren and Textkernel probably are the best when it comes to parsing that data. And when we talking about parsing, we're talking about making that data available so that it can be consumed by matching engines, by AI machine learning, all that other fun stuff.

Chad (23m 27s):

Right? So from my standpoint, and again, we're close to this and I'm incredibly biased because this is my favorite segment of the industry. You can't have good matching without amazing parsing. So they're probably thousands. I would say there definitely are thousands of platforms that are actually out there today. And you who are listening today, probably use Sovren or current or Textkernel from a client standpoint, or one of your vendors uses them because they power the whole fucking world when it comes to parsing and matching.

Peter (24m 2s):

Even some of the big skills engines have a piece of Sovren or a piece of Textkernel in there doing their thing.

Chad (24m 10s):

Yeah. Yeah. So Textkernel the big dog in Europe, EMEA Sovren, you know, the big dog here in the states. I see this as a huge coup for Textkernel to be able to, they are now there's no question. They are the top dog in the world. And number two is no where in sight, I mean, you've got great companies like DaXtra, and, and, and some, some, some others that are out there, but they're nowhere close to what now what Textkernel is. And then you have to take a look at, go to market, Eight-fold is trying to become a core talent platform.

Peter (24m 52s):


Chad (24m 53s):

While a new global juggernaut being, you know, Textkernel is poised to power, all of Eightfold's competitors. I mean, from my standpoint, this is a genius way to actually own the market, instead of going out and having the biggest brand and spending millions of dollars on creating a platform that you will compete against the entire world with both of these organizations said, fuck that, you don't need to know my name, but you do need to use my tech. So they they're powering everything out there today.

Peter (25m 24s):

Yeah. They're not Intel. They will be in every HCM stack.

Chad (25m 28s):


Peter (25m 28s):

And I think it's where, where else would they go? Because it's not just about recruitment or not, let's say head, office type recruitment matching skills to jobs. It's also, if you think about temporary work or gig workers, freelancers, if you can then look at saying what, okay as say, somebody like Manpower, let's say, or, or Alexander Mann, they've got thousands of temporary workers and they're having to find somebody to do one job. So it's like, Hey, find me somebody to do this one job. Well, if the machine can actually say, well, we can not only find the person that's got the right skills. We know where they've worked before the matching becomes even more finite in actually picking people out for contract type jobs.

Peter (26m 11s):

I think the opportunity is in the massive high volume, hourly paid space, temp space, freelancers, you know, actually going beyond just, you've got these skills, you could also do this job at saying availability, match, location. All of those kinds of things.

Chad (26m 26s):

You're talking about 70% of the market is what you're talking about.

Peter (26m 31s):


Chad (26m 32s):

So yes, I agree. I agree. A hundred percent. And, but I, again, I believe one of the things that we have done as an industry shit is we have spent hundreds of millions, billions of dollars on attracting candidates into our own personal databases. And then we allowed them to sit there and fucking atrophy. They just went into a black hole and faded away. When, if you had tech like this to parse and match against new jobs, new wrecks that actually popped up. That's where the money is people. So I'm pretty excited about this and very excited about seeing what Textkernel has next. So we'll be talking more about this, there's no question, cause this is an exciting space, but until then, we're going to go ahead and take a quick break.

Chad (27m 22s):

And we're going to be back to talk about threatening things toward the friends over at Indeed. Be right back. All right, Peter. So when we talk about this industry today, Indeed is the major player. Am I wrong?

Peter (27m 34s):

They are.

Chad (27m 38s):

Yeah. They're the major player. The question is how did they get where they are today? The next thing that I want to talk about is Appcast versus Indeed. But seriously, it's really a gang effort to be quite Frank, more major programmatic players versus Indeed these days. The next one caught our eye as this update came straight from the smart job board website. It's not an earth shattering announcement, unless you start to connect the dots, and this is a message to job sites, employers and vendors listen close, because here it goes, quote, "Here at Smart job board, we've been working hard to offer an option to import jobs from our partner network, to all of our customers.

Chad (28m 24s):

It's a great option to populate your job board with jobs. And in case you experience a lack of job content partner networks, such as Appcast will quickly and easily populate your job board by importing jobs from the network to backfill jobs, these jobs will look like native job postings. We will include the job alerts to job seekers and also be counted in jobs by city, state, category, widget." So Peter, why is this a big deal?

Peter (28m 51s):

I'm not convinced it is to be honest. I don't think, I don't think that's where the issue is going to be. First of all, Indeed are not going away any day soon. I don't see it.

Chad (29m 4s):


Peter (29m 4s):

They're too big. And the reason they they're so big as they are frictionless, you know, a recruiter doesn't have to do a thing to get their jobs onto Indeed nothing.

Chad (29m 12s):

Other than pay, other than pay. Yeah.

Peter (29m 14s):

Organically don't know. But that's how they got so big. And the organic features always been free.

Chad (29m 19s):

That was a long time ago. Yeah. That's how they're lev