Imagine being behind the scenes during brand crisis hiring situations at Uber and WeWork. Literally the basis for "We Crashed" or "Super Pumped" mini-series. This type of experience should come with a diploma.
But seriously, Employment Brand veteran Andrew Levy joins the Cult Brand podcast crew and shares stories and tips on how to hire in a brand crisis. Plus, thoughts on unwinding and reengineering process and tech stacks, candidate rediscovery, and answering questions around global EVPs.
Welcome to baptism in brand crisis with an episode worthy enough for We Work Jesus, enjoy!
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Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
That's right, baby. Happy Cult Brand kids. Who is ready for managing a recruitment brand through hi-jinks in crisis. I know I am. When I say hi-jinks, I mean the super pumped and we crashed type of hi-jinks. Julie Calli, president of recruitmentmarketing.com and our resident employer brand expert has brought along a friend for today's podcast. Julie, who is waiting in the wings. Who do you have over there? You've got me excited. What the hell is going on?
Well, I brought with me today, someone that I've known for several years in this space and who has had a great career working with many companies that I would say you probably have as apps in your phone right now, who has had a great career, engaging with so many different companies that had such great perspective of things. I welcomed with me today Andrew Levy.
Chad (1m 20s):
Andrew Levy. Awesome. And so, okay. So we're talking about companies like Uber. We're talking about companies like WeWork. Oh my God. There's got to be stories all over the place. But before we get into that, let's hear a little bit about Andrew. You're in San Francisco, give us a little bit long walks on the wharf. How does Andrew spend his personal time? Don't get too crazy though.
Andrew (1m 42s):
Right? Totally. Yeah. I can tell some stories. So, you know, these days I've been trying to avoid San Francisco actually. So my, my partner and I have a house up in Guerneville, which is in Sonoma county nestled in the Redwoods. So we try to get up there. You know, COVID times things got a little cramped here and a loft in downtown San Francisco. So we've been going out there a lot and wine tasting, sitting by the river, hanging out by the pool, just like being out in the wild a little bit.
Julie (2m 11s):
That sounds fabulous.
Chad (2m 12s):
Nice. Okay. Okay. Okay. Enough about that. I've got to hear one of the craziest stories you've got to tell me, oh, I don't care if it's about Uber. I don't care if it's about WeWork, but I've got to hear, we've seen everybody I'm sure has already watched. We crashed and super pumped. You were there, dude. You got to tell us some stories. So what's your craziest story or stories?
Andrew (2m 32s):
I think one of the most interesting things, maybe it's not a crazy story, but like, just to give a sense of like what was going on in the minds of the talent acquisition folks at Uber at the time. You know, so like during the, you know, the crisis around Susan Fowler, you know, obviously the employment brand took a massive hit and this was the time when the company was growing most and needed to hire every single engineer you can imagine. And leadership there gave us carte blanche to just explore any tactic that we could and we came up with some of the most crazy methods of getting engineers to engage with our brand, when, you know, it was in rough shape in the US. So we ended up importing engineers from all over the world and doing like batch day events, you know, getting them interested because a lot of times you get your blinders on and you think your brand is trashed all over the world, but that's not actually the case.
Andrew (3m 25s):
You know? So in certain markets we didn't have as much issues. So we built strategies on importing people and was able to kind of keep the train rolling in terms of recruiting.
Chad (3m 36s):
So not every country has a 24 hour news real that's happening is what you're saying. Not everybody's addicted to 24 hour news?
Andrew (3m 46s):
Totally. And a lot of times like you, you know, you may overstate or over imagine the impact of a crisis in your one particular location. So like, you know, Bay areas an echo chamber. So, you know, everyone's really, really mad at your company in one particular market, but you know, that isn't the case everywhere. It's just not, so like thinking outside of like what you're just hearing by your colleagues sitting right next to you is pretty helpful there.
Chad (4m 13s):
Okay. So you got to you that that's Uber, you got to talk to me about working for WeWork Jesus. How crazy was that situation? I mean, there was a time when you really had to do a shit ton of hiring, right?
Andrew (4m 25s):
I mean, the expansion goals were absolutely nuts there. Yeah. I mean that there wasn't enough top of funnel to fill it. It was, it was pretty unreal. You know, some of the work that we did was a lot around, you know, storytelling and content production, getting markets warm, to just hire as many as we possibly could. You know, I mean, on the fun side WeWork, the parties were unreal, you know, going to summer camp and all that stuff. It's it is as described in the documentaries or the TV shows on Hulu or wherever they land.
Chad (4m 57s):
It did look like a cult in itself to be able to say cult brand, right.
Andrew (5m 3s):
There was definitely moments of it. But I mean, it's kind of amazing to sit back and think about it because it fell at this moment of time when like, you know, the idea of, you know, making a life, not just the living, like that really meant something to people. So like cult or not like the story
Chad (5m 19s):
It does now.
Andrew (5m 20s):
It does now absolutely. I mean, it's still resonates and then, you know, they're rebounding, so it'll be interesting to see how they grow. But I mean, rocky financials aside, you know, the story of WeWork is still a really interesting one I still think being written right now.
Chad (5m 34s):
Yeah. Okay. I got all of that out of my system so far, Julie, go ahead and take it.
Julie (5m 40s):
Of course, he wanted to ask those ones with the juicy details. And, you know, the tactical practice of that, right, when you're already facing so many challenges to attract people, to work at a company, but the employer brand right can lean into a consumer brand so people love it. Great. That makes it a lot easier to win people to the business, but if something takes a turn, now you've got a challenge that you're detracting people because of what the consumer brand has done. What have you seen that people have had great success in leading in the employer brand?
Andrew (6m 18s):
It's a great point. I mean, and so let's take Uber, for example, you know, like obviously, you know, the bad press impacted our ability to recruit, but at the same time, you know what we did at that moment, you know, we had defined an EVP before kind of the crisis moments had hit. We refreshed it. I mean, we thought pretty critically about like, what types of talent, like, what are the attributes of the talent that we actually need to survive in an environment like that? And resilience was a huge one. So, you know, we started to pull on that lever a little bit more and say like these types of people are going to be able to sit and slog through something that's really, really painful at the top and able to do their work.
Andrew (6m 59s):
So as we started to message and test around that, we got people who are self-selecting into that type of environment. So to your point, it's just as important to self-select people in as out. And we want it to weed out people that weren't willing to sit in an environment where, you know, the bad press is very real. And you're going to hear it every single day.
Julie (7m 18s):
I love what you said about leaning in, like, who do you want to hire? What do you need from them? I loved hearing you say that. That's like building a candidate profile in a way to determine who is our ideal candidate, and then, I also heard you say that you're building on top of that with how you want to target that type of person. Did you do that for all roles or just certain types?
Andrew (7m 41s):
In many cases, we did do it for all. So, you know, the EVP messaging was a lot around building. You know, it was a hyper-growth company before it was a hyper-growth company during the crisis, but you know, that messages can shift a little bit towards rebuilding and resilience and optimism. And, you know, having sat inside and see, you know, what the company was trying to do from the inside, we tried to surface as much of that to the outside, to be as transparent as possible with like what's changing and what type of person will thrive in that type of environment.
Chad (8m 14s):
So question around that, most companies, we don't see doing this, there are certain archetypes, I guess you can say that are perfect for resilience. Let's say the military, right? Pretty resilient people. We don't see companies trying to pipeline them in and train. Right. So manufacturing your own types of people per se. Right? Cause the hardest thing to train really is resilience. And to be able to say, okay, we have a pipeline of individuals who we know are resilient. Now we have to do is get them to a certain level. And then I know in some cases that's a long-term type of a plan, you can do some of your entry level and it's going to take a little while for that to grow, but aren't we supposed to be growing talent within our organizations?
Andrew (9m 0s):
Absolutely. I mean, in a lot of those cases, at least for, you know, kind of the companies through crisis, there was a compounding issue of, you know, attrition. So you want to grow, but you also want to keep, you know, so there's this very fascinating, fine line of defining a value proposition for the market, but also for the employees themselves. We did a lot of work thinking in words about like how we want to message to employees themselves, for exactly that purpose. It's like, keep the people, keep the institutional knowledge, keep them growing.
Julie (9m 34s):
I mean, I was just reading today in April, we had 6.6 million hires made. Yippeee! Three steps forward and then 4.4 million quit. Two steps back. So that's the case. You're saying there's a lot more effort on retaining people is part of the employer brand.
Andrew (9m 54s):
I couldn't agree more with that statement. So, you know, I work now for, you know, an e-commerce company that focuses on pet supplies and, you know, I work on the high volume space. So the hourly workers that are working in the warehouse, you know, hard jobs that are not necessarily always in the most ideal locations to work and, you know, competing against companies like Amazon with potentially higher wages. A lot of what we're trying to do now is message and like impact the actual talent experience, make sure that it's aligned with how we're marketing ourselves out in the market so that the people coming in know what to expect at day one.
Andrew (10m 35s):
You know, we see attrition start almost immediately if people are misaligned with the job that they, you know, have signed up for. So that's actually a big focus right now is making sure that, that the funnel of people that are coming in don't immediately leave. In the high volume space it's unbelievable the velocity that you have to put into the funnel just to keep the labor orders met inside the company. It's a lot of work and it's very important to pull that retention lever.
Chad (11m 3s):
So, so on the front end of the funnel, there's a hell of a lot of ghosting going on. I mean, even after somebody has, they've started the process of actually accepting an offer, right? How do you in, within a brand actually try to minimize the ghosting piece? Obviously a lot of it has to do with communication although you have to be able to do that at scale, which is not easy, right. Especially when you're dealing with it, the amount of positions and people that you're trying to connect with. So, so talk a little bit about that. That's not easy from a brand standpoint.
Andrew (11m 38s):
It's not, it's not at all. And, you're spot on. I mean, there's a lot of it is communication and there's a lot of automation potential within that flow. What's amazing though, is like, you know, we're, we're right now uncovering that there are five or six different of communication going out from your applicant tracking system, from an SMS platform that you might have from, you know, the onboarding tool, et cetera. So some of the work that we've been doing now is process mapping that and trying to clean that up. And, you know, at scale with high volume recruiting, we are looking to automate as much as possible so that recruiters can focus on providing a good experience, not just processing recs.
Andrew (12m 18s):
There's a lot of work still be still to be done, but there are amazing tools out there to kind of get a handle on it. But it all starts with like, just understanding what you're saying to candidates to begin with. And we've uncovered some situations where we're sending, you know, 15 text messages in kind of an inconsistent way to take candidates along the way. That's not a great experience. That's not the kind of story we want to tell. So yeah, it's all about mapping what you're saying first.
Chad (12m 42s):
So well mapping what you're saying, but also there's gotta be a tech mapping as well, right? Because you're, you've got to know what systems doing what and how it works. And if there's redundancies in the system, when which one overrides the other. How much of your time have you actually had to deal with process mapping on the tech side, as well as messaging?
Andrew (13m 2s):
I personally love the tech side of things. So I insert myself in it anyway. There are, you know, there are obviously other teams that I'm partnering with, you know, like the talent operations team that helped with some of this mapping work, but it's a passion of mine. So I focus on it. But you know, another thing to think about, and I'm sure a lot of listeners will experience this at a big company is sometimes you're decentralized, you know, you might have like one TA ops team, but you know, 14 different markets that you're recruiting in with different tools and different processes and different ways of communicating. All of that comes into play here. And the work that I'm doing now with my team is to start to centralize as much as possible, particularly around like the technology and automation piece to just get away from some of that kind of potential brand issues around, you know, over-communicating, or under-communicating,
Julie (13m 50s):
You've leaned in saying that, you know, in the past, some of the companies have been able to have an EVP and lean in on that as you know, through crisis or to bring it attraction, but with having an EVP, how, how do you get a company to understand that that's important? I know a lot of people suffer there to be late. I can't get them to believe in it.
Andrew (14m 11s):
Yeah, totally. I'd love to actually take one step back and like define our terms a little bit. So yeah, I'm sure a lot of listeners know what an EVP is, but I like to describe it as like the, you know, what you get for what you give as an employee. And that's, you know, beyond just compensation so it's the experience component of work. And you have to think really hard on how that relates to the company values and also the corporate brand. Like they should all click together. But, you know, in terms of a value, there's tons of data out there that will point to, you know, the, if you have a clearly defined EVP that matches the reality of work at your company, and you do a good job of getting it in the market and weaving it through your recruiting process, your employees will ramp faster.
Andrew (14m 54s):
They'll stay longer, they'll be happier, you know, and the same thing pointing that EVP internally towards your own employee experience, that's really, really important to do. The example that I love to give is actually around Airbnb. So they, you know, they're all about belonging and, you know, they host here in San Francisco and I'm assuming other offices like French toast Fridays, where anyone can come in and kind of hang out and you belong. And their office space looks like their Airbnbs like, you just get a sense in the environment that you're in Airbnb and that you belong there and that's programmed into exactly how they treat employees and how they recruit them.
Chad (15m 30s):
Yeah. As a matter of fact, the writer of the cult brand pretty much Bible Douglas Adkin, he was the guy who actually really started all that within Airbnb, which is why we got into this discussion in the first place. It all had to do with belonging and understanding and nobody in this industry was even thinking about that, which we thought was what was amazing. So it's awesome that you brought that up. So we, you talk about the talent management side now, recruiting and talent acquisition, doesn't really touch the talent management side that much. Sometimes there's kind of like almost, like a gray area and then it just falls down.
Chad (16m 13s):
Right? And you're right, from the standpoint of retention, that that is incredibly hurtful not to mention it hurts your employment brand because this is the experience that you promised and now you are not giving what you promised. So who within talent acquisition touches the talent management side to ensure that that brand promise continues on.
Andrew (16m 37s):
I love this question. So most of what the employer brand manager or leader's role is, is influencing. You may not own anything that falls under your purview. In reality, you may own some marketing and advertising budgets so at the top of the funnel, but you're right once you get into kind of HR and talent management, it is not your space. And it's all about kind of presenting with data, why they need to pay attention to it and put it on the roadmap. So, one of my favorite pieces of data that I've used in the past to influence this was actually not only employee surveys, but just Glassdoor data. So if you filter your Glassdoor data and look at like kind of the ratings of ex-employees versus the ratings of people currently employed, you can see a differential there.
Andrew (17m 23s):
And if you see that people are leaving your company and leaving a review, that's scathing, you know, like you can see in the data, if you're churning people out and making them really angry, and that will 100% make its way back into your employer brand, cause everyone's going to talk to each other. So that's a great data point to pull, to go talk to talent management and go talk to HR and say like, here are the themes that I'm seeing. Let's talk about building an HR program to address this. This is going to impact our recruiting. This is going to impact our bottom line. It's going to cost more to get people and people are going to leave. And they'll sometimes listen, they sometimes, well, but keep on the good fight.
Julie (18m 1s):
So there's data that TA cares about. TA's looking at different things and then there's HR data. They're different. Where do you see that companies are having success, looking at those as separate, or is it better to look at it together?
Andrew (18m 17s):
I mean, I would love to say that most companies should find themselves in a world where it's like a talent lifecycle and they think of, you know, the people coming in and the people exiting is all the same audience. They're all potential employees. They're all potential rebound employees or boomerang employees, but that's not necessarily a reality. I always try to look at it together, but you have no idea how unbelievably hard it is to connect let's say, source of hire to performance data. You know, it's a really hard story to tell, and we got close to it at Uber actually, to be able to tell the story of like, you know, people coming in through LinkedIn, engineers stay longer, you know, for these three markets, that type of storytelling, but to get there, it requires quite a bit of kind of connecting the dots and connecting the systems.
Andrew (19m 4s):
And sometimes it's not possible, but you can use equivalent pieces of data. So like employee surveys are fantastic for kind of teasing out how things are working, at least from like the talent experience perspective.
Julie (19m 16s):
What are some of the pieces of data that you can't live without to do your job?
Andrew (19m 22s):
Great question. So for me, there's one golden metric that I always like to go back to. And it's the percent of candidates who come in through a paid channel and make it to an onsite interview, compared to the percent of candidates who come in through the career site and make it to an onsite interview. And the reason why I focus on that one, for kind of talent attraction efforts is that's showing you that if those numbers, if those ratios are really close together, that means your paid marketing is just as pretty much just as good and efficient as your free marketing, which is your career site. So what I always try to do is optimize that paid channel to get as close to that free quote, unquote, "free channel"
Andrew (20m 4s):
as possible. And you can see in that data, you can do some comparisons and say, okay, you know, for this talent group, maybe I shouldn't be marketing on this channel anymore because it's way out of whack and they're not making it to an onsite interview. Why onsite interview? If you think about what a top of funnel talent attraction person tries to do, you fill the funnel, you try to get them through apply, et cetera. It's up to the recruiting team and the hiring panel at that point, when it gets to onsite, it's their job to make it or break it at that point.
Julie (20m 30s):
You can't own the results that come after, but he can make sure they get there.
Andrew (20m 35s):
You can't own it, but you can sure try to influence it. You know, like if it's a really crappy, you know, interview experience, that's your employer brand. So that's another one you probably don't own, but you should push on.
Chad (20m 47s):
Hard question when it comes to the amount of applications you get per year. So how many candidates do you have apply per year? Let's start with that.
Andrew (20m 57s):
Oh my goodness. Well, I'm thinking back. So Uber, you know, we were in the millions per year and that's at the highest volume. So my current company, we're talking, you know, tens of thousands of hires a year and it takes, you know, generally, you know, 10 to 20 applications per role. And you know, this is on kind of a high volume so it's constantly trying to push the top of the funnel. So we're talking, you know, tens and 10, multiple tens of thousands of applications a year.
Chad (21m 26s):
Okay. So how are you currently, or maybe even in the past, past organizations, how have you tried to reengage or keep those candidates that you've already paid for warm? Because this goes into candidate rediscovery because we see so many companies paying for the same candidate, 5, 6, 10 times over. You already have them. You didn't keep them warm as a matter of fact, they might be pissed off already. So what do you guys do? What's the secret sauce on trying to focus on a great experience, even if they didn't get the job and also that leading into rediscovery?
Andrew (22m 1s):
Love, love, love this question. So I don't think I know a single company who does this well yet. We as kind of talent attraction, practitioners need to learn a lot from the consumer world here. It's all about CRM. It's all about segmenting your campaigns to do exactly what you're saying, recycle the people that you already have, or not even like re-engage. You know, you can build really great, simple nurture campaigns to push people back into the funnel that may have either been silver medalists, you know, bronze medalists, or just not even reviewed. So many candidates, sit there, unreviewed in your ATS that could be piped into a CRM and re-engage for similar roles.
Andrew (22m 44s):
I am 100% guilty of paying for the same people, five, six times right now, as we speak, I've done it at every company.
Chad (22m 54s):
Andrew (22m 54s):
But from a tech perspective, you know, in past past roles, you know, I'm fairly new at my current place, so we're just standing things up, but I've had, you know, Salesforce CRM in place. Marquetto automation, you know, you name it all hooked up into the career site. You know, you get those things humming and you can get CPAs cost per hire is way down below what you were paying for, kind of at the top of the funnel.
Chad (23m 19s):
Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So do you partner with marketing in sales as well, knowing that the brand touches not just so many candidates, but those candidates for the most part are more than likely customers. Do you partner with them to be able to prospectively streamline and I dunno, maybe draw more budget into some of your campaigns and tech and whatnot?
Andrew (23m 44s):
It's a great call. So, you know, the talent organization and HR generally doesn't have the budgets for this type of work. So I definitely had my fair share of roadshow, beg borrow steal from, you know, engineering departments, marketing, sales, you name it. On the marketing side usually the partnerships are around kind of aligning our messages to the corporate brand and making sure that we're kind of playing in the right lanes. On the, you know, the sales side, actually, there's a ton to learn from them on how they utilize CRMs. They're good at this stuff. They're native to it. I'm by no means an expert there so we sit down and have quarterly meetings, monthly meetings, and like, just learn from them.
Andrew (24m 26s):
Julie (24m 26s):
So working with a company that is very large and international, it's everywhere. It's in all different markets. Does an EVP stand up on a global scale like that?
Andrew (24m 37s):
Yeah. I love that question. You know, what immediately comes to mind here is actually Uber. So, you know, we sat, we did a road show like to define the EVP focus groups in different markets all over the world and kind of landed on, you know, core grouping of messages that we wanted to be the pillars of the EVP. But to your point on, you know, recruiting in different markets, total cultural difference on how those messages might land my favorite story there was actually, we were in Southeast Asia doing video shoots and, you know, we were trying to stress these particular pillars of the EVP and, you know, a local kind of leader of a particular office said like, that's not gonna work.
Andrew (25m 18s):
You're talking to the totally wrong people here. Like you're talking directly to the candidate, you should be talking to the families. You know, convincing mom and dad that it's okay to join this kind of unknown American startup in Indonesia. And that kind of realization, you know, I thought I had covered my bases by doing focus groups all over the world. Oh yeah, that's enough. Absolutely not. You know, like you need to be able to pivot your messaging and like the audience that you're speaking to pretty frequently based on where you're doing your recruiting. And we did that. I mean, we changed the message to be more like, kind of a target to the family. And it did work, you know, like we got more engagement with those pieces of content.
Julie (25m 60s):
So when you're crafting your messaging, right, so you want to put out messaging to attract people and we were just talking about nurturing, right? So you have all these candidates in local markets. What kind of things do you have to consider when you're adjusting messaging for all the different types of segments that you have to communicate to?
Andrew (26m 15s):
Yeah. You know, a lot of it starts with kind of understanding the profile of person you're trying to recruit or like the vertical, the talent segment I'd say. So, you know, engineers are a great example there versus kind of your ops people at the front of the house. They, you know, in their careers might be motivated by very different things. Then you might try to define your EVP as these four or five pillars, but underneath it, you might have to pull much harder on one pillar, like, you know, the scope and scale of the problem that you'll be working on for engineers versus like the growth velocity for an ops person. They may fit into different pillars, but like you, you stress those points a little bit differently. So, you know, digging in with your current hires on like what motivates you to stay here and stay here in your career.
Andrew (27m 3s):
I personally don't think it's valuable to stick to your guns completely on an EVP. You know, you really do have to speak to the people you're speaking to
Julie (27m 12s):
Some more personalization in your communication.
Chad (27m 14s):
Give 'em a love that nurture. So, Andrew, last question for me, when it comes down to tips and tricks and priorities, what is the highest priority that you would give to anybody that sits in your seat when it comes to being able to do your job?
Andrew (27m 32s):
I'd say, you know, like don't boil the ocean. There's so much work to do in this space, always regardless of how big your company is. And you're probably a person of one, you know, or maybe you have a very, very small team. One of my favorite questions that I get from, you know, a stakeholder or someone looking to engage the talent attraction team is like, Hey, we should be out on TikTok or something like that. I live my biggest piece of advice. When you are given a question like that is flip it around on them and have them tell you and get a really good understanding of what the actual talent demand from the business is and tailor your campaigns to meet that talent demand. So it's not about the channels.
Andrew (28m 13s):
It's about solving the business problem, which is the actual hiring. So I personally usually focus on the funnel first and not the brand side of things first. Getting a hold of people flowing into reqs so that the process can continue and people can hire. So a lot of that is for me, at least for the larger companies that have scale, it's programmatic advertising using a vendor that can help kind of get a book of media together in one spot, you get great analytics around it. They have expertise on managing and optimizing that spend. If you can get that piece done first, you will be loved by the business and especially if you are driving the right people into the right reqs of right time.
Chad (28m 56s):
Julie, any partying blows?
Julie (28m 58s):
Oh, I don't know what to say. I'd love to, you know, hear in some of those things that you shared, I think people listening are going to take some notes on your key metric there that you use. I think that's really going to change some people's lives and how they view their data.
Chad (29m 14s):
Agreed. Agreed. Well, Andrew, we appreciate you taking the time again, keep those shipments coming. My dogs are your biggest fans. I promise if anybody wants to actually connect with you on LinkedIn or maybe you have your own website who knows you might be on the TikToks and you want people to follow you, where would you actually send them to connect with you?
Andrew (29m 35s):
Yeah, I am way too old for TikTok. I would love for people to reach out to me on LinkedIn. That's the spot.
Chad (29m 45s):
Very easy. Andrew Levy is it Levy or Levy? Which one?
Andrew (29m 48s):
It's actually Levy, but I will respond to both.
Chad (29m 51s):
But much, much like the Schitt's Creek. Okay. Very nice. Julie, that's another one in the can. Thanks for bringing such a great guest, but you know what? Got to close it up. We out.
Julie (30m 5s):
OUTRO (30m 55s):
Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.