Recording from downtown Nashville and nursing a hangover, the boys cover a plethora of topics, including iCIMS settling a legal battle, layoffs and “layoffs” at Indeed and Eightfold, SHRM playing kingmaker with vendors and the World’s Worst CEO. Raising money this week is Erin, Grayscale and Workstream. Pass the Hot Chicken!
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Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Oh yeah. Justelle has hired a divorce lawyer so you're saying there's a chance. Hey, Kitty's, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your cohost Joel "show me to the nearest Hatty Bees" Cheeseman.
And this is Chad "my brain hurts" Sowash.
And on this week's show, iCIMS settles, Sherman vests, and Florida is gonna Florida. Let's do this. Your head hurts, man?
My head fucking hurts, man You don't drink wine and then have bourbon. That's just stupid. And then we both did that of it. Yeah, we both did that. I was just not smart. That was dumb.
Joel (1m 9s):
The good news here. We're in downtown Nashville for those that haven't been following. And the good news is, apparently all the birds and the lime scooters lock up after around nine o'clock.
Chad (1m 20s):
Thank God for you.
Joel (1m 21s):
Because everyone I tried to get on, I don't even know what time it was last night, denied me. So I had to walk all the way back to my hotel. Thanks, Bird. Thanks.
Chad (1m 31s):
Yeah, that's a big shout out to Bird Scooters.
Joel (1m 32s):
I give them the Bird
Chad (1m 34s):
To Bird Scooters. My shout out. First shout out goes to Debbie McGrath. I really appreciate you having us here in sunny Nashville for Inspire HR. We're on stage later with KristyAnne Boyd, Andres Translavina.
Joel (1m 49s):
Chad (1m 49s):
I'm sure I didn't say that right. Steven White and Matt Charney. How did Matt get on stage with us? How'd that shit happen.
Joel (1m 58s):
He's just kind of like pilot fishing us everywhere.
Chad (2m 2s):
A dangler. He's a dangler is what he is. So yeah, we're here in Nashville, loving it and yeah, excited, excited to get on stage and talk about not quiet quitting. I fucking hate that.
Joel (2m 13s):
Yeah. I'm hoping a little barbecue or some hot chicken helps me get through today's session.
Chad (2m 19s):
We'll do that next.
Joel (2m 21s):
Somber shout out from me. This one goes out to John Zap. Anyone that's been in the space for any period of time has probably read John's work at some point.
Chad (2m 33s):
Joel (2m 34s):
Anyway, John passed away kind of suddenly last week. And this is the notice that was on ERE, John Zap an award-winning journalist who was twice nominated for a Pulitzer Prize and later helped Nightrider, Below Interactive, and the LA newspaper group developed leading online media sites, died this past week. He was 70 years old.
Chad (2m 56s):
Joel (2m 56s):
A brain tumor, apparently. Now when I was going back into my mind, a couple things here. We were set to interview John.
Chad (3m 3s):
Joel (3m 4s):
He had written two or three articles about Indeed and I think maybe Zip Recruiter. Yeah. And I had reached out to John and said, Hey man, we gotta get you on. Let's Talk. He was all scheduled, and I think the day before, he just messaged me and said, Hey, I've got some personal issues to take care of. We'll have to postpone the interview. I didn't ask anything of it. It's none of my business.
Chad (3m 25s):
Joel (3m 26s):
And of course, that interview was never rescheduled. So that's a somber memory of him. I was first introduced to John back in the early oughts with Cheesehead. He's a legitimate journalist.
Chad (3m 37s):
Yes, he is.
Joel (3m 38s):
And I know that it irked him to no end that this blogger thing could empower knuckleheads like me to write about the industry. But we had a nice, fun, competitiveness about us. He would get mad if I would scoop him. I would give him kudos for his scoops. He will be missed. And he's a dying breed. There aren't very many journalists covering our space anymore. And rest in peace. John, you'll be missed
Chad (4m 3s):
Definitely. Rest in peace. John. They so many stories from so many people he was in the industry for so long, wrote about everything.
Joel (4m 12s):
Chad (4m 12s):
Stuck his nose into everything.
Joel (4m 13s):
Chad (4m 13s):
Which was exactly what he should have been doing. It was awesome. So he was objective. He wasn't prone to hyperbole was just the facts.
Joel (4m 22s):
Chad (4m 22s):
And he was a breath of fresh share. He'll be missed. He will be missed. I'm gonna try to try to bring these up.
Joel (4m 27s):
Bring it back.
Chad (4m 28s):
Try to bring these up a little bit. My first shout out goes to Prime Time Jon. That's right a T-Mobile employee at a retail location. He put together some really cool TikToks about T-Mobile until get this, you've heard this one before. T-Mobile told him to stop. They didn't fire him, but they told him to stop.
Joel (4m 47s):
Chad (4m 48s):
So I, I know, I know Jon was, you know, he was making TikToks on the clock. I'm sure you know, he should have been working. There had to been something. No, the guy was doing this on his own time. Prime time Jon wasn't on the clock. He was TikToking. And yet T-Mobile said TikTok, you do stop. Shout out to prime time Jon for understanding what local promotions should look like in a big Boo to T-Mobile for being a shitty employer.
Joel (5m 16s):
I wonder if Prime Time is the name he gave himself or if he had earned that with his inner circle. Cause when you call yourself Prime Time, you really put a burden on yourself.
Chad (5m 26s):
Well that's his hashtag to bring the A game. If you wanna check it out, it's Prime Time Jon, J O N on TikTok.
Joel (5m 33s):
And the cease and desist letters from Dion Sanders are enroute. Now shout out to our recent monthly winners of free stuff.
Chad (5m 44s):
Love Free stuff.
Joel (5m 46s):
Rum with Plum. Our first winner, Karen Heatwole.
Chad (5m 51s):
Joel (5m 51s):
Yeah. She celebrated a birthday recently. iCIMS's employee. Our beer winner, this month was goes to Deb Linley. Of course, beer is sponsored by our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. And last but not least, our bourbon winner goes to Liz Newman. As our listeners know, TextKernel is our sugar daddy for the bourbon bottles that go to our listeners. Yeah, you can win too, folks, if you just head out to Chadcheese.com/free, putting your info and good things will probably happen, including free t-shirts, which I brought with me.
Chad (6m 26s):
Oh yeah. So sexy!
Joel (6m 28s):
To Nashville. Those sponsored by our friends at JobGet really nice t-shirts, high quality. Oh, they're nice. No Haynes beefy tees. Nope. In our, in our Warehouse. Nothing but good stuff as these people know that have gotten shirts, Chat cheese.com/free. Everybody.
Chad (6m 43s):
There it is. I, my, my, my last shout out goes to Low Hilton, Another talker. Yes. I am toing the hell out of this. Geez. Who shared her quote, Come back to the office on unquote company culture. Looks like Story on TikTok, her sitting in an empty office all by herself on the TikTok, you see quoted text that says, We really need everyone to come into the office at least twice a week to contribute to company culture. And that My friends was an empty fucking office for, for Low Hilton.
Joel (7m 20s):
Yeah. It reminds me of the story about people taking Zoom calls in the office. Yes. Like to go and being alone. Being alone there. All right. Well, we got some, some, some birthdays to announce. Not very many. It's a light week Okay. For us. But again, rum with plum sponsors our birthday winners. Mark Jenkins and Denise Adams. Celebrate birthdays this week. That's the list.
Chad (7m 42s):
Those are easy names too. Yeah. They didn't get any easy
Joel (7m 45s):
Names. Shortlist. This is my kind of podcast so far.
Chad (7m 49s):
Oh. As we sit here by the pool, The drewry in That's right. Kids in Nashville. We're thinking about next week when we're going to be on a rooftop.
Joel (7m 59s):
Probably won't be by a pool with country music.
Chad (8m 3s):
Probably I would say not country music, although there will be in the skyline. The Eiffel Tower. Ooh, yeah. That's right baby. We're going to catch the Vnk.
Joel (8m 11s):
Yes, we are. Yes, we're, Yes we are.
Chad (8m 12s):
Yes. We're gonna do that first. As soon as we get in town, even before the conference starts, we're catching the vnk on the top of a top hotel. Rooftop.
Joel (8m 23s):
Chad (8m 23s):
Yep. Rooftop party.
Joel (8m 24s):
We're gonna get to see the whole Eiffel Tower, not just the tip. I,
Chad (8m 26s):
Chad, I hope. Yeah. I I hope so. I hope so. It's now or never kids. I mean, if you're in or around Paris, and that means Europe, Really. I mean, come on. You gotta be there. Grab your tickets. Go to Chad cheese.com, click on events in the upper right hand corner and get 20% off of goddamn ticket kids. What? Come on. What Now? We're gonna be on the floor doing this podcast thing. We'll be on the stage doing the talking thing. So come to Paris.
Joel (8m 55s):
Also not in Paris, along with the country music, more than likely will be fantasy football, American style. Well, another week is in the books. Everybody. And here's your leaderboard powered as always by our friends at Factory Fix coming in three weeks in a row at number one. Christie killing it. And she is killing it. She faces me this week. So she's, she's outta the number one spot as far as, I'm number two, The Uck Surge Strange Brew Bre, that's easy for me to say in the number two spot. Followed by Jason Vorhees, Putnam, Joel Nacho Cheeseman, James Hatfield Gillum, Chris, come on.
Joel (9m 41s):
Manion. Dennis Tupperware. Matt Henry Hill Smoking. Joe Wilke, Chad Prince of Portugal. So watch Mike d Shafer and Dan Marino Shoemaker. Oh,
Chad (9m 51s):
So Factory Fix is not in the basement anymore.
Joel (9m 53s):
That's not in the basement anymore. Okay. They can, they can get back there this week with another epic loss By, by Mike Schaffer. Good luck to everybody. Awesome.
Chad (10m 3s):
Awesome. All right. I think it's, it's it's time, isn't it? Topic.
Joel (10m 11s):
All right. Let's talk a little isms. Spark Start. A recruitment marketing video platform announced this week that it has settled the patent infringement lawsuit. It brought against iSims. The case involved iSims video Studio product, which is built on the technology of the former All True Labs Accompany iSims acquired a few months ago, and we talked about that on the show. Chad, give us some judgment on this news.
Chad (10m 39s):
Oh my God. First and foremost, let me say that I'm not a patent lawyer and I have never played one on tv. No. So first off, I reached out to iSims and I got some attorney response mumbo jumbo Bowl shit. Yes, it was, it was, it was horrible. But then I reached out to friends. Yeah. And I asked business questions, not legal questions. And luckily we have friends over at isim, so, so I asked them, you know, whether this was gonna impact their business, if they were gonna have to change anything, et cetera, etcetera. And it was pretty much, this will not impact our roadmap or operations of the video platform. So they free and clear.
Joel (11m 20s):
Chad (11m 20s):
It's interesting though. I also reached out to, to Spark start for a comment and specificity around the settlement and was pointed to the patent, which didn't help a fucking bit. Yeah. From everything I currently understand about this, and again, not a patent lawyer, it's, it's more about the video approval process than anything else. Okay. Technically, the article says specifically and points out, quote, large enterprises need secure approval processes and the ability to manage video at scale end quote. Okay. So this was more about process instead of like infringing on trying to copy somebody's text.
Chad (12m 0s):
I don't think anybody's trying to copy Spark Star Tech.
Joel (12m 3s):
No, I mean, when I look at the, the solution, it's basically in embed code on a job description. I mean, it's generally, it's basically take a YouTube video and embed it. So I didn't, I'm glad that you, you clarified exactly what was going on. It'll be interesting to know if whether it's sort of an ongoing licensing fee that iSims has to pay to do this or whether it's a flat fee terms Were not disclosed. No. Shocker. There. Patents in our, in our space are really interesting. I remember back in the mid two thousands company called Employee on, Oh yes. Ond patent for scraping job postings company called Get the Job was founded Scraping Jobs, An Indeed competitor their time.
Joel (12m 45s):
And, and I written, I had written many letters like, Oh, they're gonna put Indeed out business, they're gonna like, you know, make 'em stop doing what they're doing. Nothing changed. No. Even though they had this patent around scraping jobs. So yeah, this to me is probably much to do about nothing. Write a check. I'm sure iSims didn't want any sort of legal issues with the potential IPO coming up and other issues that they're dealing with. So it
Chad (13m 10s):
Is interesting that she didn't launch this, that Spark start didn't launch this against all true.
Joel (13m 15s):
Walter didn't have any money. That's exactly
Chad (13m 19s):
Joel (13m 19s):
Chad (13m 19s):
Money, they're sitting back waiting for somebody to get acquired who has cash and then lay this out. So my, my first thought was this is pretty weak. There are many patents out there that are just weak as hell. Yeah. Again, I'm not a patent guy, although from a process standpoint, it's like trying to tell somebody that can't open the, the, the door with their right hand because you have a patent on it. Right? Yeah. That's the process. I'm right-handed. What do you mean? Yeah. I reached out to a guy who owns several patents and I asked him, why wouldn't iSims just kick this in the nuts? I mean, literally just, just kill it. Yeah. And then, you know, the patent would, would fail possibly at that point. And he said, Well it might, it might actually cost less to settle Yeah.
Chad (14m 2s):
Than go to court. Not to mention the optics. Yep. But there was something else that he said that I thought was interesting is that, look, first and foremost, if it's cheaper to settle than go to court, you also have the opportunity to start to build a mote. Now all the other video platforms that are out there that might actually have a similar approval and management system, now they have to, they have to try to navigate around this. Isim doesn't
Joel (14m 29s):
Yeah. In terms of iSims buying or, or Spark starts
Chad (14m 31s):
The, the settlement actually going with the settlement and saying, Okay, let's keep the patent in place so that we don't have to worry about it because we've already paid through this, but everybody else that's out there now has to navigate around it. Yeah.
Joel (14m 43s):
Yeah. A lot of people just exist to get patents on shit and then wait around to sue people when they when they do. So that's is that, that's a business model. I remember a Shark Tank episode with a guy who patented a hole in a jacket so that you could run your headphones Yes. Through the jacket. Yeah. And literally had a, a patent on that. Now of course with Bluetooth speakers and, and AirPods and whatnot, that's kind of irrelevant, but people Yeah. Create these things and stifle innovation. I think it's a bad thing overall. Overall. Well, speaking of stifling innovation, you got some, you got some insider scoop on Eightfold and Indeed what's going on there? So there
Chad (15m 22s):
Are rumors flying around that eightfold are laying off about 20% of their staff. And we take a look, it, it says at least on LinkedIn, which is not a a, a great way to go. Best we got, but it's the best we got. Says that they have around 650 employees. So I mean, we're looking at sounds about right. Well over a hundred people that are, that are hitting the bricks and then also hearing that indeed are going through voluntary redundancy, which pretty much to me is what happens before you start laying people off. Right? Yeah. You can take the money now and run or you can, you can hope that you're not a part of a riff.
Chad (16m 4s):
Joel (16m 4s):
It's the cage free egg, the doors open if you leave, you can, you know, keep your, keep your dignity and your eggs with you. But yeah, so the first thing I thought was, I hope no one that was working the eightfold booth at HR Tech was one of the,
Chad (16m 20s):
Joel (16m 20s):
God, so much money went into that booth. Yes. And they're laying the groundwork for the, you know, certain certainty of it's the biggest booth at every HR tech that next year, you know, the decline starts happening rapidly. But yeah, I'd be really pissed if I was working the booth and saw that thing and realized that I was losing my job on the Indeed thing. I don't know, we talked about the Google for Jobs AC acquiescence last week. Yeah. And having Google do that kind of makes me think things might be cracking at Indeed. I hear that things are great there, but I also see things with my own eyes like this and the Google for Jobs thing that, that makes me think like either they're economists are saying, Hey, shit's really gonna get bad, we gotta prep forward.
Joel (17m 7s):
Or the business isn't as as robust as it used to be. I don't know. Let's keep her on Indeed and you know, we will. Yeah,
Chad (17m 13s):
Yeah, yeah. It's, it is, it is interesting, like you said, this to me just seems like the first step. It just seems like the first step. So there's going to be, there are going to be things that are happening in Indeed and you know, they're big organization who make, make a shit ton of cash. If they do falter a bit, there's gonna be changes. Yeah.
Joel (17m 31s):
Yeah. And they got a lot of real estate to kind of work through as well. I think they made some, some leases before the pandemic hit and their work from home. Totally. So let's see how that works out. Let's take a quick break. Refill these waters cuz my body needs it. Yes. And we'll talk about people getting some money.
Chad (17m 53s):
Money, money. Money, money.
Joel (17m 53s):
All right Chad, despite the economy, people are still getting lots of checks. They, they are to fund their businesses. Let's talk about a few of them. Extreme a mobile first hiring and onboarding platform for remote workers has extended its series B funding round by $60 million, bringing its total series B financing to 108 million. The funding will be used to enable the company to expand into new industries and develop new products for the increasing desk list workforce. Its customers include fast food, quick service restaurants, including some of my favorites, Burger King, Dairy Queen, and Jimmy Freaking John's.
Joel (18m 34s):
They also service hotel chains such as Marriott International. Chad, what are your thoughts on work stream? Getting some cash?
Chad (18m 38s):
Yeah, I said it before and I'll say it again. I don't understand the need to create a new term, like desk list employees, number one. Anyway, I see Work stream as another one of the, those platforms that could easily take the place of an ATS for hourly types of positions. We've seen Fountain who they have about 220 million in funding and Paradox has over 250 million in funding just to name a few. And these platforms are, are creating really just a, a new process and style for, for high volume. But I see this moving into, into other types of roles in the future as well.
Chad (19m 19s):
But I, this is, this is all the craze.
Joel (19m 22s):
Yeah. It's, it's where the world is going. I think we saw some early shakeout with the Allos and the Mayas and maybe companies that weren't sort of built for, for scale and slings and arrows too. You mentioned Fountain and Paradox. I mean, these guys are, are in the same ballpark and if, if, if the model is proven, I think it kind of is at this point. Yeah. Then it's like a matter of getting money behind players that are, are making, you know, making inroads into the business. So I think this is, you know, if, if Paradox and Fountain are looking to be Coke, Pepsi, I mean I think these guys are in a pretty good spot to be Fanta or maybe Dr. Pepper. So
Chad (20m 0s):
There's plenty, there's plenty of fucking business out
Joel (20m 3s):
There. Plenty of business. Yeah. Especially in the space about, I mean healthcare. Yeah. Lots of room for this messaging style, re recruiting and onboarding, just employee. So much sense. Yeah. Makes sense. Alright, let's go to Firing Squad Alum Gray Scale Labs.
Chad (20m 24s):
Joel (20m 25s):
Tie Abernathy. Yeah. The tech recruiting solution and Atlanta based Grace Scale Labs is raised 7.5 million in a series A bringing its grand total to 13.3 million, which also includes some debt financing. Founder Ty Abernathy said they will be investing in product enhancements in building out their team, hiring in all areas of the business, including enterprise sales, product engineering, and customer success. Chad Gray Scale's doing pretty well. What's your take on their news? I
Chad (20m 54s):
Think, I think he was a double applause, wasn't he? Yeah, I know. I gave him big applause. You gave him big applause. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, things happen for those companies who come on firing squad, right? They, they, they just, they continue to happen. Ty Ty's got great experience, very smart, very simple platform, which is what I loved, I think the most about it. And to see them get, get a little bit more cash to, to get things rolling, I think is, is awesome. And can't wait to see what they do with it.
Joel (21m 22s):
Yeah. It's amazing that we're still sort of talking about text recruiting, you know, 10, 10 years. Hence listeners will obviously know text recruit, they'll know Canvas. Gee, shocking. People are still texting. There's still 95% open rates on text messages. 80 plus percent are read within 15 minutes of receipt. I can speak as a father of some teenagers that they don't read email anymore. They don't answer the phone if they don't know who you are. Text messaging seems to be the way neither do you. Yeah, well I'm, I'm young at heart. That's why, that's why I don't do it. You know, I think the, the only threats to this business really are if, if spam gets out of, out of hand, I'm getting more spam messages sort of random and my phone, the, the, the companies do not, the carriers do not want this to become an email spam issue.
Joel (22m 16s):
So companies that enter in this business have to tread lightly, be very careful. International growth is also a challenge for companies like this. And that's why you're seeing a lot of them gravitate toward WhatsApp and messaging services because it does get really costly to do international texting. So yeah, like you said, core competency and recruitment, they've grown organically slowly. I think they probably raised just enough to grow the business the way that Ty wants. And these guys are gonna be in acquisition at some point down the road. I'm sure once the dust clears of around the, the economy and the recession fears or that sort of wanes, these guys are gonna get gobbled up and, and that investment dollar amount is gonna be really palatable for a lot of companies to go grab a text recruiting solution.
Joel (23m 7s):
Next up we have Aaron Pittsburgh based Aaron, an employee referral platform is raised 5 million in a series A round. The startup touts over 1.5 million employees in a hundred countries, including companies like Pinterest and GoDaddy. The company says it offers an advanced feature set that allows customers to completely automate employee referrals from the point of referral through bonus payment. Chad, no one's really made it big in the referral business. Is Aaron gonna break through and be the first?
Chad (23m 38s):
That's a good question. Okay. So I was, I was wrong in blaming Deb for my hangover. It should actually be Mike because we met Mike, the ceo, founder, CEO last night, and he gave us drink tickets, kept feeding us drink tickets. So I blame Mike. It's a good question with regard to employee referrals. Because employee referrals, the biggest issue that the whole process or any platform has had is stickiness, is engagement, right? So if you can get somebody to use the platform once, that's awesome, but how the fuck are you gonna get 'em back, right? Yeah. So you have to get that engagement, It has to be a part of a process that continually pings you about friends or your LinkedIn contacts or things like that that might be good, good fits.
Chad (24m 25s):
You have to get that interaction. And that is, that's where these platforms have fall fallen down over the years. So, you know, if Mike and team can get that shit straight, maybe, but it's not easy. It's not easy.
Joel (24m 37s):
Yeah. We've been kind of front row in the evolution of this space. You and I both remember H three, which was the first, I guess internet technology introduction into referrals. And I thought it was a fantastic idea. I actually got money for referring someone a check showed up at my door, which was pretty cool. And then that business collapsed. The next phase of it was, social media is gonna be the next referral engine and people are just gonna share jobs on social media,
Chad (25m 8s):
Be known. And
Joel (25m 8s):
You know, unbeknownst to them that, gee, it's not really cool to just share jobs randomly on social media. So a lot of those players went by the wayside. Yep. This new, new crop of referral solutions, and I think that Aaron is, is in a good spot if it does happen, is number one, the native applications that they provide for their companies. So literally when your company signs up, you download the app on the app store, Android or iPhone. So it's a native experience, which is good. It's branded to the company. I think that they are doing a good job with giving little, little rewards, right? So they, they try, it's their, their play is mobile and gamification.
Joel (25m 54s):
So little bits of gift cards, donations, you know, things that are little to kind of keep people engaged. They're hoping they're gonna be able to take, take that to the bank and have a successful company. Time will tell, but they're off to a good start. Nice Series A a little low I guess for Series A. Maybe that's a series A for 2022. These, maybe these, these series A are gonna be a little less robust than they, they typically are. But yeah, three, three pretty good companies there that we covered and three trends that we see, you know, being hot in 2022 and 2023. I think as we talk about upskilling, people trying to keep their employees, I think that referrals are gonna continue to be hot because companies want to leverage their own employees to get more people in the door.
Joel (26m 39s):
And speaking of more people in the door, let's talk about Sherm for a second.
Chad (26m 44s):
Okay. Do we have to,
Joel (26m 46s):
We do. This one really caught my attention. So Sherm, for those who don't know, the Society for Human Resource Management has acquired a company called Linkage Inc. Their leadership development firm based in Boston Linkage is used by more than 250 clients across many industries. Sherm said in a release that Linkage is committed to advancing women and accelerating inclusion in leaders and organizations. Your buddy Johnny Taylor, Jr. President and CEO Sherm said this acquisition strengthens sherms position as the go-to global organization for all things work workers and the workplace. And quote, the linkage deal follows two recent investments by SHRM in Virgil, HR and HR compliance platform and gig and take who we recently talked about a startup that manages flexible workforces, both Virgil HR and Gig and take received a hundred grand from shrm.
Joel (27m 43s):
Chad, what's your take on this Sherm News?
Chad (27m 45s):
Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting because Sherm is a nonprofit, They don't act or run like a nonprofit.
Joel (27m 53s):
So they have a nonprofit arm, but they themselves aren't nonprofit. Yeah.
Chad (27m 58s):
It's, it is interesting that they're sherm the Society of Human Resource, you know, management,
Joel (28m 5s):
They are the association.
Chad (28m 6s):
They're, they're the association, but they're also picking winners and losers at this point. Right. I don't know how people feel about that. You know, they are a company, but then again, they are more than a company. You know, they're supposed to represent the HR industry and is this going too far? That, that might be the question.