Workday Shopping Spree & iCIMS' Panic Buy

This week, Chad, Joel, and Mo Clough go full throttle:

• Greek road trips, green wine, and gummies at the Vegas Sphere

• Layoffs at Fiverr and ZipRecruiter (a.k.a. “AI ate my R&D”)

• Workday goes on an AI shopping spree while iCIMS panic-buys whatever’s left at the bar at 3 a.m.

• Joel defends his creepy Ray-Ban Metas while Mo tries not to quit the show in disgust

• A 78-year-old job seeker becomes LinkedIn famous—and Joel suggests OnlyFans (duh)

• Gen Z “revenge quitting” meets millennial “please don’t burn that bridge”

  
  

  Plus: Free booze, birthdays, bourbon, and why RecFest is about to melt Nashville

It’s business, booze, and bad ideas—just another day in the Chad & Cheese universe.

👉 Listen now before ZipRecruiter lays off the rest of their podcast audience.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION:

Joel Cheesman (00:28.003)

Ohhhhhh yeah!

Joel Cheesman (00:33.367)

Who are you trying to get crazy with? SA? Don't you know we're loco? Hey boys and girls, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Jimmy Kimmel Cheeseman.

Maureen Clough (00:38.451)

You

Maureen Clough (00:44.121)

boy.

Chad (00:44.168)

You're so white. You're so white. This is Chad Acropolis now. So watch.

Maureen Clough (00:49.725)

And this is Maureen aka Moe locking it in Wiley-Claff.

Joel Cheesman (00:55.595)

And on this episode of HR's most dangerous podcast, acquisitions, layoffs, and whiny kids.

Maureen Clough (01:03.995)

you

Joel Cheesman (01:08.695)

Let's do this!

Maureen Clough (01:12.435)

was good.

Joel Cheesman (01:14.657)

What's up, kids? Chad looks like he's been on vacation in Greece.

Chad (01:14.766)

Woohoo!

Maureen Clough (01:16.391)

you doing?

Chad (01:20.398)

You don't say. You don't say.

Maureen Clough (01:20.4)

Mmm, he does. Looks like the party continues over there if you're watching on YouTube.

Joel Cheesman (01:24.405)

it rose all day the sew wash compound

Chad (01:25.198)

Got great Portuguese green wine, but I do have some great green wine that Alex Forlis from Veritone gave me. What a wonderful man. He lives in Greece, so it kind of makes sense.

Maureen Clough (01:37.553)

Wow, geez.

Joel Cheesman (01:38.723)

Oh my God. Eight years when we started, it would have been like a juicy IPA that you would have been drinking. And now you're drinking green wine?

Chad (01:46.675)

Yeah, still like those, still like those.

Maureen Clough (01:49.139)

evolution.

Chad (01:51.99)

I'm in wine country. So Portuguese drink more wine per capita than any country in the world. They also drink more beer per capita, just alcohol pretty much than any country in world.

Maureen Clough (01:52.551)

You guys are growing up.

Maureen Clough (02:03.547)

Wow. They got it.

Joel Cheesman (02:05.089)

Is this after you became a resident? Is that how that worked?

Chad (02:07.758)

I'm not sure. I'm not sure we have that. We're have to fact check that. Can I have to fact check? But really quick, a big happy, we've already wished Bill Borman a happy birthday, but happy birthday again. Julie and I, his wife Fran actually invited us out to Corfu, which is an island over by Albania where Bill lives.

Joel Cheesman (02:12.781)

Jeez, speaking of liquor, go ahead.

Joel Cheesman (02:26.797)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (02:28.898)

And so we got to road trip. literally landed in Athens and it's about a six hour drive. So we hopped in a car with friends of ours, Chris Long and Marin Hogan. We did a six hour drive, hopped on the ferry with the car, went over to Corfu for a few days, had a blast, spent a night in old Corfu town, did a road trip back and then did the Acropolis, which is a fucking mate. I mean, if you go to Greece, you got to do ancient Greece, right? And then we did

Joel Cheesman (02:38.627)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (02:44.333)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (02:57.027)

Isn't the whole thing ancient Greece? Is there like a neighborhood or?

Maureen Clough (02:58.354)

Hahaha

Chad (02:58.486)

geez. Yeah, it's called the Acropolis. There's even a museum and ancient agora. mean, it's just dripping with history, much like Europe is. Just much like Europe is. Yeah. Big 60.

Maureen Clough (03:04.115)

you

Maureen Clough (03:13.533)

man.

Joel Cheesman (03:14.089)

Happy birthday, Bill. Some of the photos, Bill had a good time, apparently. Speaking of good times, have you guys seen the Charlie Sheen doc on Netflix yet? my God. How that guy is still alive is a miracle. Cocaine crack. mean, it's, yeah, I don't know. He's built different. That's all I got to say. He's built different.

Maureen Clough (03:21.299)

That's a big one.

Chad (03:26.586)

No. Jesus. How much cocaine can you do in a lifetime? Is that what it's called?

Maureen Clough (03:26.823)

have not, no.

Maureen Clough (03:35.507)

There must be some benefits, I guess.

Joel Cheesman (03:43.779)

what Robert Redford speaking of movie stars passed away.

Maureen Clough (03:45.501)

Something else. yeah. RIP.

Chad (03:47.465)

dude, all the president's men, my God.

Joel Cheesman (03:51.893)

I was going to say favorite movie, him and talk about a timely movie with, I don't know, the press and free speech and all kinds of stuff getting put under fire. Kids, if you haven't watched all the presidents men about Watergate and the Washington Post, very good movie.

Chad (03:53.998)

That's it.

Chad (04:05.367)

Yeah.

Watch it twice.

Maureen Clough (04:08.699)

It will not surprise you to know that I have not watched it. There you go. There you go. Once again, failing on all the movie references that you guys throw out there. Every single one. Damn it. That's accurate. Accurate. Remember I have a goldfish attention span. Movies are too long. Movies are way too long for me now. It's 2025. 2025.

Chad (04:12.411)

gotta watch it.

Joel Cheesman (04:12.803)

But you'll, but you'll, you'll, she'll catch this out. She'll couch. She'll catch the South park edition when it comes to comedy central. Yeah. Yeah. Very.

Chad (04:17.518)

This is why we are here today.

Chad (04:29.806)

That's good

Chad (04:34.51)

If you can cut it down into 60 second increments, I might be able to get through it, yes.

Maureen Clough (04:37.799)

then I might be in, I might be in, but better hook me those first two seconds.

Joel Cheesman (04:40.771)

There's a business idea. Take classic movies that kids don't know and turn them into shorts. That's the new Quibi, Quibi relaunch.

Maureen Clough (04:46.451)

Ooh, well, hey, it's, mean, that's, I believe it. There's a TikTok channel for everything.

Chad (04:47.288)

There are...

Yeah, there are TikTok channels like that. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (04:53.259)

Are there? You better put them, put them on at the Sphere in Vegas and then people will go, people go watch it. Have you seen the, the, Lord of the, Wizard of Oz on this, at the Sphere?

Chad (04:59.328)

I beat.

Maureen Clough (05:00.307)

Yeah, that's a way to get it out. It's a way to get the message out.

Chad (05:09.194)

I haven't seen it. I saw that it's going on. bet that's, dude. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (05:09.427)

Joel Cheesman (05:10.337)

Highlights, I saw highlights and stuff. Like when the tornado comes, there's a, they reenact and leaves are blowing everywhere. Very cool.

Chad (05:17.262)

All I have to say is if you are going to the Sphere to watch The Wizard of Oz, make sure that you take a gummy, about 20 milligrams, about half an hour before the show starts. I mean, that will just make it, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (05:23.075)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (05:25.855)

Hahaha

Maureen Clough (05:30.755)

Mmm. Lit.

Joel Cheesman (05:31.275)

All right, time out on the 20 mils because you are, yeah, your system can handle that. If I did 20, I'd be comatose for a week. Be careful with the dose kids. Be careful with the dosage. Don't just listen to your uncle Chad and take 20 milligrams.

Maureen Clough (05:40.147)

You

Chad (05:48.654)

It's best for you. It's best for you.

Maureen Clough (05:50.682)

Yeah, can't imagine that would do good things to me. Yeah, but hey, whatever gets you through these end times.

Chad (05:56.833)

We had some shout outs, right? We had shout outs.

Do what?

Maureen Clough (06:02.483)

I said this should, know, hey, 20 milligrams might get you through the end of days, the end of times that we're going through. whatever it takes.

Joel Cheesman (06:09.697)

Might get you through this podcast episode as well, so feel free to...

Chad (06:09.774)

You might be okay.

Joel Cheesman (06:16.643)

Whatever it takes, kids.

Chad (06:17.902)

All right, so I've got a quick and somber shout out to our late buddy, Matt Lavery. This is on the, you know, on the heels of our Greece trip and all those things. Last weekend, Notre Dame played Texas A and Julie and I were supposed to be back in South Bend for that game. We were actually going as guests with Matt, who was a golden domer to the core. Matt, the dude had like the best tailgate set up.

Joel Cheesman (06:41.453)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (06:47.092)

known to man. We're talking about couches. We're talking about barbecues. I mean, he TVs, big screen TVs. yeah, the dude loved his football and he loved his Notre Dame fighting Irish. Matt, we miss you and we're thinking of you buddy and shout out to living every moment like it is your last. Get out there and enjoy life kids.

Joel Cheesman (06:50.179)

Couches, liquor, top shelf.

Joel Cheesman (07:10.691)

On a less summer note in regards to Matt, the Cubs are in the playoffs for the first time in like 10 years. So there is, he is upstairs somewhere watching the Cubs make a run. And by the way, on a personal note, he and I had a bet that the Cubs would have an over under 90 game wins this season. As we record this, they're at 88. So he's only two games away from cashing in on that bet. I'll probably do a little.

Chad (07:13.806)

There we go.

Maureen Clough (07:17.618)

Hahaha.

Chad (07:20.686)

You

Chad (07:30.83)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (07:38.965)

social media celebration if the Cubs get to 90 in his honor. So always thinking of you, Matt.

Chad (07:42.478)

He's his spirit his spirit is at the cubby bear right now. That's where it's at That's where he's hanging out right now right across from Wrigley. That's where Matt's at

Joel Cheesman (07:53.699)

Cubby bears good stuff, cubby bears good stuff. We miss you, Matt. We miss you, buddy. We miss you. Follow that, Mo. Good luck.

Maureen Clough (08:01.063)

Yeah, cool. Thanks. I did not know Matt, but he sounds like he was a wonderful human being. So my loss for sure. so this next one is, it's a little bit of a feel good slash like it hits you in the gut a bit, but, you know, these, these days we want to have a little, a little uplifting stuff going here and there, right? Just to keep us propped up. So, this woman a couple of days ago posted on LinkedIn and she said essentially like, Hey, my 78 year old dad who had retired.

Joel Cheesman (08:03.681)

Hahaha!

Joel Cheesman (08:18.327)

Yeah we do, yeah we do.

Maureen Clough (08:30.907)

now has to go back to work because he can't afford his life. He ran out of savings, which unfortunately is he's not alone, right? This is happening to people and he has absolutely no idea what the job market is like today. He didn't even know what LinkedIn was, right? Like he's up against so much AI. mean, countless things in his way, right?

Joel Cheesman (08:40.045)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (08:51.694)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (08:52.019)

Um, and so she put this post up and she said, you know, Hey, I really want to help my dad out that he seems, you know, he's down on his luck and he's concerned about what he can do. And the outpouring of support was absolutely wild. So as you can imagine, like 431 connections from this guy, including, well, there I am. Hi, um, 431 connections for this guy in like two days of being on LinkedIn. That shows you how many people have rallied around this guy and people are

Chad (09:17.592)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (09:18.407)

you know, reaching out saying, Hey, I'm a career coach or Hey, I've got this job. And, and, know, he has a long sales career in his background and, hopefully a very extensive, you know, network from both life and work. And so hopefully you'll find something, but you know, obviously it's, it's pretty tough to come back in the job market after 10 years away and being 78 with, you know, ageism in the hiring process and whatnot is, a tough, tough situation, but you know, Hey, soft skills are the hardest of all. And this guy has a storied sales career in his background. So.

Joel Cheesman (09:39.189)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (09:48.316)

I'm thinking a lot of people who are going out there hanging a shingle for the first time as consultants are going for fractional stuff. They're probably going to need some sales help because a lot of those people have never done sales before. And suddenly everyone in those situations are going to need to become salespeople essentially. So anyway, hats off to Richard. I hope that he could find something. And if anybody here is listening and has something for this fella, I think you should reach out. Maybe Chad and cheese can help get them higher. When that'd be a feel good story.

Joel Cheesman (10:15.691)

I mean, I'm thinking...

Chad (10:15.798)

And if you're watching, there's his LinkedIn. There's his LinkedIn, Dick Davis, baby. There he is.

Maureen Clough (10:19.057)

Right? Let's go! Come on, come on, internet!

Joel Cheesman (10:19.139)

I'm thinking, I'm thinking we're going, we're going Dick Davis, get an only fans. are a lot of lonely women in retirement homes that would love a little Dick Davis in their, in their inbox. You know I'm saying?

Maureen Clough (10:30.663)

That's a different angle than I was gonna suggest, but TA professionals, TA professionals, hook them up. Experience matters. my Lord. I'm so sorry, Richard. I was trying to help. Trying to help. boy, boy. Anyway.

Joel Cheesman (10:35.019)

No one called me for my- my advice. But, you know, if,

Chad (10:41.528)

Fred Garvin, male prostitute. Dick Davis. Yeah, no shit.

Joel Cheesman (10:42.147)

Dick Davis, OnlyFans Celebrity.

Poor guy. We'll get the hell out of LA for one. Geez, that's an expensive town. Move to Waco or somewhere. don't know. Geez.

Chad (10:55.502)

don't do that. I do. do. Yeah. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (10:57.361)

I love when the community rallies behind someone, right? So that was lovely and I hope this man gets a job, may he get a job.

Chad (11:05.55)

Excuse me.

Joel Cheesman (11:07.861)

All right. My, my shout out guys, you guys probably saw the new Apple, products, the new, the new air iPhone and some of things pretty mixed reviews. All right. But like your boys, Zuck came through for me, Chad this week. So the, you've seen me in the wild, these are my work glasses, but my regular everyday glasses are the, Ray Ban metas.

Maureen Clough (11:07.923)

What?

Chad (11:24.945)

nice.

Maureen Clough (11:25.073)

I love him.

Joel Cheesman (11:33.751)

to my kid chagrin eternally embarrassed when dad wears the Meta's Ray-Bans. I'm not kidding. You didn't think I had these? Yeah, these are, yeah, anyway, these are it, baby. I've had a flake.

Maureen Clough (11:35.484)

You're kidding, right?

Maureen Clough (11:39.645)

dear God, you're not kidding. boy. Holy. No. This changes everything. What the? Why do you? Okay. All right, continue. All right. Withholding judgment.

Chad (11:50.241)

Uh-huh.

Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (11:53.175)

Are you impressed or disgraced in quitting the show?

Maureen Clough (11:56.308)

I'm possibly verging towards, veering towards the ladder. That, I can't, wow, okay. Hey, you know what? Educate me. Educate me.

Chad (11:56.942)

Ha

Joel Cheesman (12:01.407)

Okay, I have no shame.

Chad (12:01.752)

Well, it's okay. The other half, Mo, the other half, not having that. I'm not having that. I'm not supporting Zuckerberg or any of that shit, so.

Maureen Clough (12:08.019)

Good, good. We'll stick together.

Joel Cheesman (12:11.041)

Hey, I'm supporting Ray Ban, a good, a good us company. more than, more than meta, but anyway, the, so if you don't know the meta, the current metas, you can take pictures, you can listen to audio that it has some AI in there and whatever. But I've ever since I've been wearing glasses, I've man, eventually there's going to be some augmented shit. There's going to be stuff in the lens that I can see. So finally the new meta display glasses are going to be a step in that direction.

Maureen Clough (12:18.707)

Okay, tell us more.

Maureen Clough (12:25.105)

Not creepy at all.

Joel Cheesman (12:40.651)

So they have a display screen on the glasses so you can see restaurant reviews and this will probably get into creepy, creepy areas where you see a face and he'll tell you who it is if they're in, if you're in, if they're in your Facebook connections, right? And then they have this wristband because it's awkward to talk to the glasses and ask the glasses to do stuff. So the wristband is like a little hand control thing with the glasses. So that's very cool.

Maureen Clough (12:50.547)

We're there.

Joel Cheesman (13:07.299)

And if, if we're looking at sort of a jobs component to this, there's going to be a marketplace that they're launching around the glasses. So a lot of old-timers remember Chad, remember, remember when you could put up your phone with the camera at like downtown whatever, and it would show you like, Oh, Starbucks is hiring. And it would show you a little like on the screen. So

Maureen Clough (13:07.539)

Wait, what?

Chad (13:28.686)

You mean you mean the app that indeed that indeed like submarine? OK, sorry, my bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (13:33.195)

That was the job hunter or the job scout or something. that there's going be a whole new wave of job apps where you're got your glasses on, you're walking down the street and you'll see like who's hiring and, shit like that. So I'm excited for the glasses. I can't wait to, to sport them. I hope I can get them before, before rec fest, but that's probably, probably a little bit of a.

Chad (13:50.466)

So bad.

Chad (13:58.136)

So apprehensions, Mo, what's your apprehension of these? Is it just the Facebook glasses or is it all of them?

Maureen Clough (14:00.851)

I mean, where do I begin? Oh yeah, it's jealousy. You're right. I'm just jealous. I'm just jealous. Yeah. I just, first of all, those things, I mean, at least yours are the Ray-Ban version. I don't know if you saw, they unveiled the new versions of these things. They are ugly as sin. It's like Oakley wraparound red frames. Did you see those? They came out with them like yesterday and they are an affront to my eyes. Oh dear God.

Joel Cheesman (14:02.933)

It's jealousy. It's jealousy.

Chad (14:11.47)

Chad (14:25.827)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (14:26.039)

How bad would you feel if I said I have a pair of those too? But I don't.

Chad (14:28.942)

Bless your heart.

Maureen Clough (14:29.947)

Okay, thank God. But I mean, at least yours are like less sartorially offensive, but like, I don't know. Is it just me? I don't really love the concept of someone walking around taking fucking photos on their eyeglasses of me or anyone else or anything else. I think it's hella creepy and yeah, I'm not here for it. So I thought I actually, it's funny because you were, well, we were talking about shout outs, right? And I was gonna shout this out.

Chad (14:45.71)

It's very big brother. It's very big brother.

1984.

Joel Cheesman (14:50.059)

Okay, so.

I'm not.

Maureen Clough (14:56.913)

And I fully thought that your shout out was gonna be like, these things are stupid. And instead you're like, love them, stan them totally. Like, I'm just shocked.

Chad (15:01.326)

You

Joel Cheesman (15:03.733)

Okay. So, so let me, let me defend. This is great. This is great. This is why we have Mo on the show. So, so it's only recording if the light is on. So don't think that someone with the glasses are just randomly recording you or doing like they actually. Well, I won't and most people that wear them.

Maureen Clough (15:09.011)

This is Vigorous Debate.

Maureen Clough (15:15.211)

Okay.

Chad (15:18.543)

yeah, because I'm sure they won't be able to jailbreak that. Sure, yeah.

Maureen Clough (15:19.709)

So, cause, and also like, so I need to be on the lookout for people with a little, like I have to make sure that I spot said light. Solid.

Joel Cheesman (15:27.083)

If there's a light, they're recording. And if they go like this and a light goes off, they've taken a picture. Okay. But, okay. To say that everyone's with these is just walking around taking pictures of people is kind of stupid. I only take pictures. Okay. So if my kid is at soccer practice and there's a photo op and I can't reach in my pocket and like focus my camera, I just go do and I've got a, I've got a picture of the kid playing soccer.

Maureen Clough (15:34.641)

That is... my god. What the

Maureen Clough (15:42.643)

I mean, I know they're not, but like they could be.

Chad (15:43.598)

No, it's not.

Maureen Clough (15:56.456)

You know, I've lived too long, what the fuck? Do we need these things? Like get your phone out of your pocket and take...

Joel Cheesman (15:59.375)

And the best, the best thing that they're for is the audio. Cause no one hears the audio. Like, so my wife could be watching whatever serial killer documentary she's watching and I could be listening to a podcast and she doesn't even know. And that's magical. Cause I don't have to sit through another, another Ted bun, another Ted Bundy documentary. I can, I can chill out.

Maureen Clough (16:17.363)

my gosh, this is gonna make women hate their husbands even more.

Maureen Clough (16:25.612)

my God.

Chad (16:25.762)

think we should go into free stuff because this is just too much. This is too much for, we're not giving away free rebands, kids, but we are doing free stuff.

Maureen Clough (16:30.259)

I'm dying. I'm dying. Yeah, thanks. That's, we draw.

Joel Cheesman (16:32.963)

There's a small number of listeners who are intrigued by this and want to hear more, but fine, fine. Let's get to free stuff.

Maureen Clough (16:40.211)

They might be in the minority. Let's see. All right. I guess it's from me this year. I mean, we, my God, my brain. I'm telling you. All right. Apparently I need to drink and probably a lot of you do too. So who wants some free whiskey? Anyone? Anyone? All right. Yeah. The talent experts over at Van Hack got you covered. All right. If you are more into wearing.

Joel Cheesman (16:45.975)

Jealous.

Chad (16:57.078)

It helps.

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (17:06.493)

things than t-shirts are a thing that you might consider. And we have some really cool things from the, the folks who wear those weird shoes. Chad's dying. Those red shoes over at the Aaron app. Hey, you guys told me to do this. This is on you. and if you don't want to go quite as hard as whiskey, we do have beer. There's craft beer and there is a difference. And that's from Aspen tech labs. Thanks fellas.

Chad (17:23.426)

me some air nap. Go ahead, Kira.

Maureen Clough (17:34.115)

And ladies, if there are ladies there too. And if it is your birthday, we've got rum with plum.

Chad (17:36.622)

There's the light.

Maureen Clough (17:45.46)

So good. So good. All right. But you guys, chadcheese.com. man, you took the punchline from me. Sorry.

Chad (17:47.182)

But if you don't win, you can't play, which is why. You gotta go to ChadCheese.com slash free. Now do it again, do it again.

Joel Cheesman (17:52.159)

I talked to fans all the time that aren't signed up. So what are you doing? What are you doing? Chadcheese.com slash free. Get a shirt, get some shit. Like it blows me away. celebrating another, they're awesome. They're awesome. I agree. I agree. Unlike those damn Ray-Ban meta glasses. So celebrating another trip around the sun is Jim Lowe.

Maureen Clough (18:02.415)

my gosh, guys. Chad, she's...

Chad (18:07.118)

free stuff.

Maureen Clough (18:07.783)

Those t-shirts are soft, very soft. Get them, get them while they're hot. Way cooler.

Joel Cheesman (18:21.537)

Randall Emory, Eli Carstens, Ava Zills, Karen Heatwool, Michelle Palermo, Wendy Dodd, David Anglikowski, Becky Rand, Leslie LeBlanc, and Youssef Ongel. Happy birthday, everybody, and thanks for listening. Hopefully we'll see some of them out in our travels. Chad, where are we headed?

Chad (18:36.375)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (18:39.155)

Happy birthday!

Chad (18:44.878)

So, Wreckfest is almost here kids, but before that, we're heading to Chickencock Whiskey HQ in Louisville, Kentucky with our friends over at Havas People. Have you heard of Havas People? If you haven't heard of Havas People, you need to hear of Havas People. H-A-V-A-S by the way. That's right, who doesn't? Steven, and Steven's gonna be there by the way.

He's coming from Scotland, spend some time with us. it's gonna be ridiculous. I hope they don't send him back. That's the problem, the whole immigration thing.

Joel Cheesman (19:14.207)

Mm-hmm. So many reasons to attend.

Maureen Clough (19:18.523)

I'm to meet him. Let's keep him.

Joel Cheesman (19:23.107)

The bar in Kentucky is pretty high. He'd really have to go above and beyond his usual naughtiness.

Maureen Clough (19:25.831)

We.

Chad (19:29.614)

But this one's your baby Cheeseman. So tell us a little bit about what's happening on October 13th in Louisville.

Joel Cheesman (19:36.611)

Yeah. So if you're, uh, if you're in the Louisville area or you want to just make a drive, maybe you're in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, or somewhere nearby. Uh, here's a reason to come down to Louisville on October 13th. It's a Monday. It's also Columbus day. So you might have the day off. Might be a good reason to make the trip if you're not there. Uh, so chicken cock are unofficial official bourbon of the show is opening up a speakeasy.

Chad (19:52.792)

There you go.

Joel Cheesman (20:01.763)

in, in Louisville. So they are going to open this up for us. It's kind of a sneak preview before they actually open to the public. We're going to do some interviews. We're going to do some tastings. We're going to have a Steven there, hopefully have some special guests. we'll probably do an interview or two. It's from five to seven. If you'd like to join, just head out to Chad cheese.net slash Louisville hyphen event.

Chad (20:06.254)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (20:21.075)

Amen.

Joel Cheesman (20:26.915)

Or just hit me up on the socials. Uh, if you're in Louisville, it's a can't miss event. In my opinion, it's free bourbon. It's us. It's Steven McGrath. It's networking. It's easy. It's easy. It's a, it's a no brainer.

Maureen Clough (20:34.291)

That sounds amazing. Are you guys gonna do like, are you guys gonna do like a sort of a hot one style where you give people a shot of whiskey before they answer and like increase that? Have you thought about that?

Chad (20:34.88)

It's chicken cock.

Chad (20:46.118)

so I've. So so so first off, we've already planned this through at least. Julie is the DD. OK, so she's the designated driver. Yes, and and Steven and I and Joel, we're we're going to be drinking heavily. So first and foremost, we're going to show up in Louisville early. OK, we're going to hit some we're going to hit some some distilleries before even going to chicken cock.

Maureen Clough (20:53.331)

very smart.

Joel Cheesman (21:12.301)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (21:13.747)

Free game!

Chad (21:15.106)

yeah, we got a pregame. So we're going to do that. Then we're going to get a chicken cock. So yes, if you go figure, love high level top shelf whiskies, you got to be a chicken cock. Not to mention again.

Not to mention again, kids, it's not even open yet. You are going to get a sneak preview of what's going on. Then, then we're headed to Nashville for RecFest where we're emceeing the Disrupt stage on Wednesday. Plus we're also hosting talks with our friends over at Dalia, Covey, Jovio and Veritone. That's right. And here's the cool part. We're doing all of the interviews and the panelists are...

Joel Cheesman (21:47.981)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (21:58.86)

for all these four talks are practitioners from Compass Group, Rippling, yeah, you heard me, Rippling, Foley, Phantom, Interim Healthcare, People Ready, and the list goes on. So it's gonna be a blast. Disrupt Stage, day one. Then the night of day one, that's the 15th, you're go to Rock the Riviera at Redneck Riviera. That's right. Mo can't wait, she can't wait. This is our second year, by the way.

Maureen Clough (22:06.277)

You

Maureen Clough (22:27.239)

I'm seriously pumped. I'm so pumped for this.

Chad (22:29.984)

Second year, JobPixel, Omar again, I need to JobPixel more apparently, so JobPixel. And then our friends from Havas people are also going to be there again. But one thing, one thing I wanted to go ahead and tell you, because I just got a message Joel, and this is just trying to level the playing field here for both of us. Jamie must have felt sorry for me.

Joel Cheesman (22:50.679)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (22:57.482)

for missing the Jeff Taylor interview at ERE. So he's putting me on stage to close out day two on the disrupt stage with Jeff Taylor. So guess what kids? So listeners, you're gonna get a Chad and Jeff Taylor version and then you're gonna get a Joel and Jeff Taylor version. It can't get better. It can't get any better than

Maureen Clough (23:21.107)

It's awesome.

Joel Cheesman (23:21.283)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to be in San Diego, uh, in November 4th and 5th, uh, for ERE and interviewing Jeff Taylor on stage. So my man is in a Chad and cheese sandwich. hope, uh, I he's ready. Ready for that. Good, good God. You know, Chad, uh, uh, you know, Monday after the event, uh, there's football. So we may have to just take the party from chicken cock for little football, which

Chad (23:25.314)

Yes, the only place to be.

Chad (23:34.082)

Hehehehehe

Maureen Clough (23:36.531)

That's a lot. A lot of Chad and cheese.

Chad (23:38.678)

and love it.

Chad (23:49.987)

yes, to-

Joel Cheesman (23:50.677)

It's a great segue to talk about fantasy football.

Chad (23:52.974)

Good call. had a bad week.

Joel Cheesman (23:55.907)

fantasy football. Yeah. Sponsored by our friends at factory fix. Let's, let's go through the, the power rankings after week two. Top of the of the charts we have. wait a minute. Is that me? Am I in first place? my goodness. Hello. Hello. Hello everybody. All right. Following following me is a Courtney. No nap in NAPO. Mackenzie, mad dog, Maitland doomsday, David Stiefel.

Maureen Clough (24:09.043)

So humble.

Chad (24:13.002)

It's fleeting. It's all fleeting.

Joel Cheesman (24:24.845)

Megan the Mahler Rattigan, Jada Pinkett-Wyler, Goodwill Carrington, Jason and the Argonauts Putnam, James and Ginger Dodds, Stephen the Scottish Hammer McGrath, the Chad Sowash, that's right, the Chad.

Joel Cheesman (24:46.539)

And following up at the end, Jeremy spoken class today, Roberts, that is your fantasy football power rankings after week two. If you're not in first like me, I hope week three goes better.

Maureen Clough (24:47.365)

heard that one.

Chad (24:54.19)

Mmm.

Chad (25:02.99)

In my defense, my defense, I was in Greece last week. anyway, go ahead.

Joel Cheesman (25:11.659)

I don't have to go on. I'm number one. End of story. That's it. That's it. Let's get to topics. Cause this is where we're 30 minutes into garbage before we actually get to topics. All right, here we go guys on the heels of paradox and flow wise workday announced its acquisition of Sana for $1.1 billion, highlighting the growing consolidation in the HR software sector. The acquisition will allow workday to integrate Sana's AI technology.

Maureen Clough (25:16.221)

Can't wait till I enter the fray next year.

Chad (25:22.508)

Here we go.

Joel Cheesman (25:40.277)

into its cloud-based platform, enhancing its offerings for customers. But wait, there's another acquisition. iSIMS has acquired Apply, an AI bot for frontline hiring, aiming to streamline high volume recruitment in retail, hospitality, and healthcare with conversational tools and predictive assessments. Terms of that deal were not disclosed. Workday acquires Sana and iSIMS gobbles up Apply. Chad, your take.

Chad (26:09.57)

Okay, starting with Workday, they just tripled down on AI in the last month. I mean, they acquired, hired Score about, I don't know, 18 months ago. And recently they ripped off the three acquisitions you talked about, Paradox, Flowwise, and Sana. I don't think that you can look at any of these acquisitions alone. They are together and they're connected. Now the big connectivity between these is Flowwise.

If you think about it, the hardest thing to do is get to get your users to adopt. Right. So you have to make it easy, which is what Flowwise does. Right. You buy Sana, which I'm just going to use one aspect of it. Learning and development. Right. They've got a huge AI driven, literally personally customized LND product. It looks fucking hot.

It looks sweet. And then you've got paradox, right? So you've got all of these. Well, not to mention, wait a minute. You still have hired score. So you've got all of these AI pieces and it's like, shit, how the fuck do we pull these together? Flow wise. Flow wise is like a sandbox. It's like a visual sandbox and you start to pull things together and say, let's start out with sourcing. We're gonna pull over the sourcing piece of automation and you look at your work.

Maureen Clough (27:08.903)

you

Maureen Clough (27:22.737)

Ahem.

Chad (27:37.142)

your workflow automation and that actually kicks into what? Hired score, right? Then you start through the interviewing process. What does that do? It actually kicks into your paradox piece. And then after they're already hired, they go into onboarding. What do they have to do next? Well, they go into LND or the sauna piece of it, right? So this makes it incredibly smart and easy.

because you don't have to put all these pieces together and teach people how to use all this shit. You literally have one dashboard that connects everything. And I think that Workday, all the shit we've given them over the years, it feels like they're starting to get some of this stuff right now. Now, don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. Execution is the biggest key here. If they can actually execute, we'll see. But Workday's got a shit ton of cash. So...

Joel Cheesman (28:19.907)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (28:35.02)

I think they can make it happen. On the other hand, iSIMS, I don't know if it's aptly, I don't know if it's apply. I mean, I don't think it matters because I think the brand's gonna go away like that, right? As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, SAP Workday and Engagedly, they both made acquisitions that focused on one thing, frontline hiring. So how is...

Maureen Clough (28:42.102)

Hahaha

Joel Cheesman (28:44.966)

It doesn't.

Chad (29:02.74)

Apply or apply or whatever described. They're described as a fast growing AI powered recruitment automation innovator, blah, blah, focused on what frontline hiring experience. Frontline hiring experience. What do we know about ISEMs? We know that they're not going to go IPO. We know they're not ready for that, right? So they have to look for what acquisition? Who was acquired with frontline hiring? Who?

Maureen Clough (29:04.435)

you

Joel Cheesman (29:05.069)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (29:12.428)

you

Joel Cheesman (29:15.331)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (29:24.119)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (29:31.958)

Yes, obviously, aptly apply whoever the fuck that is. Then we've got butterfly.ai who was as well. Then we've got paradox. Then we've got smart recruiter. So I think from the standpoint of trying to position yourself for acquisition, which I really feel I mean, I Sims if they're not going to go IPO, which I don't think is smart for them, especially with the market the way it is, it's chaotic as hell. They have to look at acquisition.

Joel Cheesman (29:39.618)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (30:01.826)

and I think this is a very smart move for them just from an optic standpoint, can they pull it off? That's a bunch of deep breaths. That's a bunch of deep breaths. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (30:16.075)

Yeah. Workday, workday is a very big company with very smart people spending a lot of money to make these decisions. So for us to be on a podcast with none of that and know that thing that we know the big picture, is mostly conjecture and opinion. But, but Chad and I've been around a while, look, we had conversations with paradox fairly early about paradox being a part of the entire

Chad (30:20.418)

Yes.

Chad (30:33.317)

I know the big picture.

Maureen Clough (30:34.308)

Hahaha!

Joel Cheesman (30:46.347)

enterprise process. So if I want to know what my PTO days were, I could in a chat ask Olivia or whatever your chat bots name was. to me, Sana is another piece of this all encompassing conversational experience as an employee from the minute I'm interested in a job to onboarding to I have questions about my benefits to I want to learn more about X, what

Chad (31:02.231)

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (31:15.843)

what is there that I can do because I think Sana has elite level learning solutions. But I don't think the conversational piece there is good at. So if you can take all that content and put it into a conversational component like Paradox,

Chad (31:26.605)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (31:41.057)

I mean, I think it's peanut butter and jelly. And then, and then you talk about all the other pieces that they brought into it. I mean, what work day is, is creating. And let's be honest, they've almost 10 years, they've kind of gotten their butt kicked by the likes of service now. And some of the other competitors are out there. I mean, big applause for them to take a big swing, which we always love to see big swings in this industry. I mean, this.

Chad (31:59.725)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (32:09.549)

This acquisition was almost 2 % of its market cap. So it's not like this is couch cushion money. This is serious money for them. One acquisition.

Maureen Clough (32:15.283)

That's not nothing. They're serious.

Chad (32:16.494)

This is one acquisition and paradoxes is just as much. So they were just about the same acquisition cost. And that was cash, cash, money.

Maureen Clough (32:22.227)

Damn.

Joel Cheesman (32:24.929)

Yeah. I mean, let's, let's call it over the last few years, five ish to 10 % of their evaluation. So they're making big swings. Wall street loves what's going on. Stock is crushing it. they've been upgraded by a lot of, a lot of analysts around wall street. So the street loves it. I think we love it. I do agree with you that it's, it's, it's hard to put all these pieces together as, as a big.

enterprise, a big company and make everything work. You have different cultures in these companies. have different infrastructure, different, there's a lot of different things going on. You have to pull together. We talked about indeed last week, pulling in this whole like connect to the ATS post job. It all comes together. You know what, you know what a big hurdle to that is, is indeed getting all these companies to agree to let them into their ATS.

Like it sounds really good on paper, but it's, that's going to be an incredible headache. If they can get 10 % of their companies to plug into the ATS, like that would be a feat. So it's, it's easy to talk about this in term, like theoretical terms, but practically it's going to be really challenging to do. have a lot of smart people coming together with different agendas and experiences. So it's going to be fun to watch. love the big swing. Wall street loves it. workday is a, is a good company, a great brand.

Maureen Clough (33:43.795)

you

Joel Cheesman (33:47.875)

Um, let's see if they can execute and get it done. It'll be fun to watch on the ice Sims front. Look, the fact that Chad, you and I don't know if it's a ply or a plea, uh, or whatever, like is a problem apply a plea. Well, yeah. So they've been, they've been, I mean, look, they, they've been around since 2016 and we don't know how to fucking pronounce their name. Like that's a marketing error. That's, that's not on us. That's on them. If they've been around for 10 years almost. So

Maureen Clough (33:54.067)

you

Chad (33:58.318)

Happily,

Maureen Clough (33:59.028)

You

Maureen Clough (34:02.675)

I thought it was aptly. You made it tomorrow.

Chad (34:02.712)

Doesn't matter. It's going away. It'll be go in three, two, gone.

Maureen Clough (34:16.636)

I that take.

Joel Cheesman (34:16.771)

They got about a million dollars in seed. Uh, they have about 140 employees. Um, this announcement, cause we all do homework before this show, I hope. And like the, the number of workday stories, huge, like page after page, the, the, the news on this was like their own PR and that was about it. Maybe like one or two industry folks. So there's little to no heat on this. I look at this simply as when

Maureen Clough (34:37.949)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (34:45.864)

iSimsBot text recruit.

It was a good move in part because canvas was then bought by employee. was job bite at that point. And I think, I think I knew at that, at that point, canvas was no longer going to be in the ISIM store, right? It was going to be the, the job bite texture, could whatever. So I think, I think ISIMs looks at paradox getting gobbled up and literally no, mean, very little conversational. If, if they don't have conversational, they're screwed.

Because when smart recruiter says Winston now workday has paradigm. Like there's a risk that if they don't have a solution for conversational, they're totally screwed. Totally fucked up. Totally behind the eight ball. So to me, this was simply a defensive move to say, we got to buy somebody to have this solution and a plea apply was the, was the, was the last girl at the bar at three, you know, 3am and nothing else is not much is left.

Chad (35:21.304)

Frontline hiring. That's it.

Maureen Clough (35:42.16)

You

Maureen Clough (35:47.003)

oof oof oof

Joel Cheesman (35:49.687)

Defensive move. Hopefully they can integrate it well enough that their customers love it. But to me, this, this was a hail Mary and a definite contrast from the workday strategy and acquisition strategy.

Chad (36:04.046)

What up, Mo?

Maureen Clough (36:05.523)

Well, from what I've heard from people in my audience that just around on Main Street, Workday had a little room for improvement. So it sounds like they are making some really shrewd moves here. I know that the Hired Score tool specifically is the one that's in question with the lawsuit that's being filed as a class action from people over the age of 40 who said that they were systematically denied interviews and job progression during their search from.

work day and so it'll be really interesting to see what comes from that. But you know, it sounds like something that's going to be based on what I read. It sounds as though like you said, it's a pretty end to end situation where it's like coming all the way from the interviewing and job searching process all the way through just like using an HCM at your day to day job. But what I thought was really interesting about it was that it sounded like it was almost going to be a VA for you at work.

Like it was going to serve up to relevant pieces of knowledge. was going to show you different learning pathways. Like you said, it's, moving towards being an LMS instead of being like, you know, a delivery system for videos and that sort of thing. But it sounds like you sit down at your desk and it's like today you should do X, Y, Z. And, and I'm like, wait, that sounds, that actually sounds pretty cool. As long as there's still something for me to do beyond that.

Right, and that's the question I have. If it's replacing a lot of that work and the menial tasks and whatnot, awesome, as long as there is something to fill its place, right? Because we want that for humanity. And I don't know if you guys saw, do you know who Cleo Abram is? She has a YouTube channel called Huge If True. So she's this awesome tech reporter and she had an interview with Sam Altman, which I cannot believe has not gotten more play. I mean, I guess it got like 3.6 million views, but whatever.

Chad (37:37.43)

You

Maureen Clough (37:52.596)

Sam Altman was asked on the nose, like, hey, it's five years out from now. Like, what do you foresee for entry level jobs for people and jobs in general? And he was like, I don't know. Things are changing so fast. It's hard to even say. And she's like, excuse me. She started with 10. Wow. Way to Bosch story. She started with 10 years. She's like 10 years out. Like, what do you see? And he's like, I don't know. She's like, okay, well like closer to now. He's still no idea. The thing is.

they are building these tools, they don't even know what's gonna happen in their wake. They don't care. They don't care at all. And it was stunning. was like such an obvious softball question. Like you should have an answer for that if you're building some of this technology. And he was like completely flat-footed. And it was like, whoa, this is, you know, I love all of the positivity and the optimism around like, it's gonna create jobs and all that, even though it's gonna take a while. even the people creating this technology have not thought that far out. And it's like,

Chad (38:33.504)

Yes.

Maureen Clough (38:49.64)

Shoot, this feels different. anyway, but.

Chad (38:54.488)

Well, and the different feeling is, I think that Workday is actually positioning themselves against Salesforce, right? They're looking bigger. They're not looking at Isims. not looking at, yeah, yeah, they are looking at the big fucking players that are, that are, that are much larger.

Maureen Clough (38:54.898)

You were saying.

Joel Cheesman (39:05.623)

Mm-hmm. Service now.

Maureen Clough (39:11.805)

Big dogs.

Chad (39:14.892)

They've been working in the talent space for a while, but the talent space allows you to actually reach out into sales and marketing and finance and write all of it. So if you become that core system for the entire, the entire organization, I think that's really what they're focused on. They're not focused on the little TA HR shit. They really aren't.

Maureen Clough (39:27.741)

Yeah.

You're integral. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (39:35.715)

Yeah. It's also worth noting Chad, think that this cycle of consolidation, who's going to, who's going to get left behind and who's going to get, you know, their payday and paradox payday smart recruiters payday, like eight, eightfold better be acquired. So like there are some. I Sims there, there are a few in there. Like if they don't, the clock is ticked, like the clock is ticking. I don't know what.

Maureen Clough (39:37.553)

the whole enchilada.

Chad (39:48.642)

Yes, yes.

Chad (39:54.506)

Hahahaha

Chad (40:02.956)

Yes. Yes.

Joel Cheesman (40:04.353)

what other options they have. So I think it could be a very interesting fall with the acquisitions and like who, who are the, who are the, who are, who's left at the, you who's left at the bar and who's going to get left behind. But, these cycles don't happen very often.

Maureen Clough (40:16.378)

you

Chad (40:16.799)

You take a look at

You take a look at the companies who haven't taken a lot of cash that can really be there and pivot very quickly. Fountain, Gem, Talk Push. mean, there's a good list of those. Eightfold's not a part of that. Eightfold is not a part of that. They have to go IPO because nobody's going to fucking buy that shit. It just it's not going to happen. They've taken too much money. They've taken too much money. They could. It could. Right.

Joel Cheesman (40:28.984)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (40:41.215)

I don't know man, I've seen crazier acquisitions. I've seen some crazier shit. Yeah.

Chad (40:48.032)

If you get a Salesforce or a ServiceNow or something like that where they can actually sucker them into it. But dude, I just don't see it.

Joel Cheesman (40:56.737)

We'll have to be watching the headlines for that, but also in the headlines guys. We got layoffs. We got layoffs.

Chad (40:59.086)

Well no, well no.

Chad (41:04.142)

Do we have an advert first? gotta go to an advert.

Joel Cheesman (41:07.395)

that we didn't talk about that in the, in the pre-show. No, it's all right guys. If you haven't, if you haven't subscribed, what the hell's wrong, get, get to your favorite podcast platform and make sure you sign up, leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you.

Chad (41:11.16)

Yeah, my bad.

Maureen Clough (41:17.043)

You

Chad (41:25.91)

And this is where all of our editors cut stuff out, cause I need another drink.

Maureen Clough (41:31.155)

I love it. I love it so much. Although I'm deeply jealous. Hi Trish. I hope I don't cause too much trouble for you in general. Oh no. That was, that threw me for such a loop. I thought you were going to shit on them. It was hilarious. That was really, really funny. Hey, it's good. We're having, you know, we're having a conversation, the posing views.

Joel Cheesman (41:34.071)

Sorry Trish.

Joel Cheesman (41:48.429)

No, I love it.

Joel Cheesman (41:52.567)

I love it.

Joel Cheesman (41:57.111)

We don't do the show to agree on everything.

Maureen Clough (41:59.336)

We don't, in fact it's boring if people agree on everything, I think.

Chad (42:05.624)

All right. Make sure you cut that out, Trisha and Sergey. And okay, now we're back.

Maureen Clough (42:07.367)

You boozed up?

Joel Cheesman (42:07.619)

Are we ready? we back? Trish, Trish we're back. Trish we're back in three, two.

Maureen Clough (42:13.679)

We back.

Joel Cheesman (42:17.941)

All right, guys, let's talk about some layoffs in the industry. Some significant ones to highlight is Israeli based talent platform Fiverr international has laid off 250 employees to transfer into a leaner AI first company with modernized tech infrastructure and fewer management layers. But wait, there's more. ZipRecruiter is closing its development also in Israel and laying off approximately 80 employees.

Chad (42:20.568)

Yes.

Maureen Clough (42:20.947)

Something new and different.

Joel Cheesman (42:48.195)

The Tel Aviv Center focuses on software development data and artificial intelligence research with a particular emphasis on algorithm development layoffs at Fiverr and ZipRecruiter. Mo or Chad, your thoughts.

Chad (43:04.748)

I'll take it first. I'll take ZipRecruiter because I know Mo really wants to talk about Fiverr. Remember when back in the day, Joel, we were gushing all over ZipRecruiter for their AI labs in Israel? mean, yes. So mean, now that seems like forever ago. It was pre-COVID, by the way. But it felt like ZipRecruiter understood the assignment.

Joel Cheesman (43:17.421)

Totally. I still have the t-shirt. They made t-shirts for this.

Joel Cheesman (43:26.626)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (43:34.84)

I was excited because I wanted to see them moving toward a paper qualified applicant model, which is exactly what Ian was talking about. Ian was totally signaling that they were moving to that model and it never fucking happened. Why? They went fucking IPO, right? I mean, that's my whole thought was that everything went to shit after IPO. They had to get skinny. They had to get pretty and then they had to go to IPO.

Instead, ZipRecruiter created Phil, a job seeker chatbot. So instead of doubling down on crunching data and matching qualified candidates to positions and actually just like quadrupling the amount of money that could actually get per posting, they created a job seeker chatbot with little to no value. And here we are. So personally, I see this as short term thinking.

fucking over a company instead of going with the long-term vision that they had out of the gate. And it's unfortunate. I hate to see ZipRecruiter going down like this, but they are going down.

Chad (44:51.584)

And how is Ian still there? Fuck!

Joel Cheesman (44:53.923)

I'm not so upset. Uh, well, Ian's still there cause there's, there's only like five main investors in the company and his foundation is one of them. Anyway, Google check that for me. But, um, Zipper recruiter stock is down 26 % year to date. Uh, last quarter they had a net loss of $9.5 million and Phil, the big swing is a big Turkey. Uh, to, to, to, to quote me, uh, it's a

Maureen Clough (45:21.747)

You

Joel Cheesman (45:21.987)

pile of dog shit sprinkled with cat turds. And this company continues to be that and laying off, apparently the brains of the organization, was apparently someone thought that was the best move possible. So you take away the R and D department, you take away all the, stuff that's cool and things that should be innovative and like fire them and let's go back to like, just where we're the job board. Let's cut expenses. I do wonder if it is, you know, I still think.

Public private equity, go and go in private, maybe is still in the, in the cards and maybe dumping sort of excess expenses as a, a way to do that, to get the price a little bit more, amenable for private equity and to go price. So I, this may be a move to cut with a goal of going private and cutting expenses, or it could just be we suck and our R and D and our, our shot at AI, was a big Turkey. we're, shutting, shutting that down.

Similarly, Fiverr.

Upwork is killing it. and we talked about Upwork a couple of weeks ago, maybe a month or so ago about how they are. They're becoming more of like, and we talked about this last week, the fractional employee, like how to manage that and getting multiple people. So it's become less of, Hey, I need a, I need a banner ad. I'm going to hire someone to do that and becoming more of like, how do I manage an entire team of fractional professionals and run my company that way? Whereas Fiverr has been sort of stuck.

Chad (46:28.992)

staffing.

Joel Cheesman (46:52.747)

And that old world, and it shows in stock price, right? Fiverr is up around 15 % year to date. Fiverr, which by all accounts was the same business a year ago is down 22%, year to date. So to me, it's a, it's a failing company. They are a lot of under a lot of pressure from wall street to make decisions and investors are saying, look, Upwork did this and they're up. You guys are stuck in the past. So I suspect you'll see a similar Upwork strategy come out of Fiverr.

But that's what's driving that. I just think ZipRecruiter is a shit business. Fiverr has to make some serious pivots in order to come into 2025 and headed to 2026.

Chad (47:33.768)

Zip isn't a shit business. They've got a great, great fucking database. They just are in the wrong fucking model. They're not a shit business. And last week, just real quick, sorry, sorry, Mo. No, I'm not. am not. am not. So, so, so here's the thing. I don't have to invest in a company just to believe in a company, Joel. I'm not like, I'm not like you, okay? So when it comes down to

Joel Cheesman (47:49.259)

Are you invested in ZipRecruiter? Then it's a shit... It's not that great then.

Maureen Clough (47:50.322)

you're good.

Chad (48:03.694)

Really great talent. You talked about Tim Deneen last week. That's the thing. You've got to get great talent who knows how to actually model out great businesses. I got to give, mean, and they're sponsor, so, you know, little biased, but Aspen's fucking tech labs, landing Tim Deneen, that kind of talent I think is big, is really.

Joel Cheesman (48:30.883)

That was nice.

Chad (48:33.678)

Sorry Mo.

Joel Cheesman (48:36.995)

Well, your thoughts on these layoffs?

Maureen Clough (48:39.635)

I mean, with regard to Fiverr specifically, mean, the CEO, Misha, whatever, he had warned in the past, he was like, hey guys, AI is coming for your job. It's actually coming for my job too. And I made a joke a while ago, was like breaking news, Fortune 100 CEO quietly ends AI first initiative after AI recommends firing the executive team to boost shareholder value. And I'm like, yeah, that actually is feasible, I suppose, coming in the future, but.

Chad (49:08.386)

It is.

Maureen Clough (49:08.947)

So he did say it, it's just, it's so twisted, right? Because he's like, hey everybody, you gotta use AI, it's the future of the world, and it's also gonna come and replace you. So these people are in a position where they have had to use AI in their roles, and knowing that they are actually training the robots to potentially replace them, that's happening. They're letting go of 250 people, which is what, 30 % of their workforce? Very significant portion.

and then on the flip side, in terms of like its product itself, they have this thing called Fiverr Go. And that was something that they encouraged the people who were gig workers on the platform to leverage and train AI in Fiverr Go on their own creations, allegedly to help them do more with less, right. And, and create more efficiencies for these freelancers. But I mean, guys, this is like dystopian stuff. Like, I mean,

I think this is going in a really, really bad way. you know, they're, they're, while they're speaking out of both sides of their mouth at Fiverr because, know, they're saying everybody use AI, it's coming for your job. And then they're also like, nobody cares. I don't know if you guys saw that they created this whole musical parody out of AI saying, nobody cares if you use AI in your marketing, nobody cares. Like it's not a big deal. Clients just want results, et cetera. And it's like, okay, so you're saying it doesn't matter, but

it actually does have a cost, not only to your own employees, but also to those who are your freaking customers, the freelancers, that's a marketplace, Supply and demand. And you are kneecapping the supply side with these freelancers. So I just think this is a really dark moment. And it's interesting to see the difference between how Upwork is handling a similar space and Fiverr, and like you said, the difference in their performance in the market. So I don't know, it's rough.

the letter from the CEO, Misha, I forget his last name, whatever. I think he didn't sign it. Yeah, he signed it just Misha, know, because he's, you know, like whatever, Cher. So yeah, it's just, I also wonder like, did any of these people hire PR agencies to help them with this messaging? Because it's just, it's like almost across the board, just like extremely tone deaf. And...

Chad (51:12.547)

Douche.

Chad (51:26.926)

I don't feel like they think they have to because it's almost like the voice of God, right? It's ridiculous. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (51:29.783)

I don't think they give a damn. Yeah, yeah. They're beyond reproach and yeah, they're just continuing to grab power and I don't know, man. It's a, feel for people. I really do. I feel for creatives. Creatives are being increasingly replaced. People are outsourcing to these robots and I just don't think that you can ever fully replace creativity in humans. it's, I'm not saying it's Fiverr's fault. I mean,

Joel Cheesman (51:53.443)

That's not Fiverr's fault, right?

Maureen Clough (51:58.854)

Some of it is, but some of it's not, obviously. It's just the product of our times, but it just makes me sad. Like I think about all the people who are losing their roles in the creative space and how they're moving to places like Fiverr to try to find jobs. And here we are.

Chad (52:14.51)

If you think about it though, it might not be Fiverr's fault, but it's their product, right? And they should be packaging their product much better. And that's, think, the difference between Upwork and Fiverr. It's like they're adults in the room over at Upwork. And then there's just a bunch of flailing fucking kids in a kindergarten.

Maureen Clough (52:22.013)

Right.

Maureen Clough (52:26.598)

I agree.

Joel Cheesman (52:28.931)

and hopefully that's what they're trying to do.

Joel Cheesman (52:36.931)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (52:41.501)

Well put.

Chad (52:41.71)

over at Fiverr. They feel like two entirely different organizations. It's weird. It is weird.

Maureen Clough (52:50.867)

Weird stuff. Several, several in 2025. Oh, the poor kids.

Chad (52:54.497)

I agree.

Joel Cheesman (52:54.819)

Let's talk about the kids. talk about the youth. Gen Z continues to dominate the headlines. Here's a taste of some of the stories this week. Long-term unemployment among college educated workers has surged with 26 % of those jobless over six months and above. There's been a 6 % drop in degree requiring job ads since 2019.

no surprise then that Gen Z's are quote unquote revenge quitting. That's a thing now. it's a public dramatic resignation shared on social media. It's also inspired the great lock in another Gen Z social media trend, urging intense productivity and self-improvement from September to December. I don't know why it's only three months, but anyway, it's a hundred and 121 day grind grind set for wealth, wellness and success amid economic woes.

Maureen Clough (53:44.019)

Because that's what we got left.

You

Joel Cheesman (53:51.657)

and loneliness. Gen Z sounds like they're over our shit. Mo, what's your take on the Utes?

Maureen Clough (53:57.063)

day.

They are over our shit and I don't blame them. I'm with them actually. If can't beat them, join them, right? And I do want to start off with a little unsolicited advice from your millennial big sister on the revenge quitting front. I get it. I get it. You have every right to be pissed off. Things suck right now, but please do not revenge quit, okay? You cannot know now that you won't need those bridges later, so don't burn them. This is something that will stick with you.

Joel Cheesman (54:13.795)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (54:28.389)

And yeah, sure, there might be someone who goes on TikTok and complains about how they were laid off or what happened in their role that was unfair, toxic or whatever. And that may land a certain percentage of them some job with a company that wants to use this as a public opportunity to say, hey, we're not like these other shitheads out there. We're one of the good guys, right? But by and large, this is going to harm you. This is not going to help you. So.

I mean, we're in a time when a lot of Gen Z isn't getting all the benefits that we as millennials and Gen Xers and beyond were able to get because the workplace is not a five day a week thing for a lot of places. Of course, that's changing and shifting, which I actually think in some ways is really excellent for Gen Z because my heart goes out to them that they haven't had mentorship. They don't know how to like.

conduct themselves in professional settings because they haven't been taught the way we were, right? We got assimilated into the workplace culture and they are just like flying solo. So I feel for them. anyway, like the point is they don't have the experience to fall back on now. So if you go out there and you blast an employer, when you're looking for a job, guess what the next employer looking at you is going to see and you're gonna be such a huge red flag. So just like, I get the inclination, I'm with you, send your story to

Chad (55:16.856)

Mm.

Maureen Clough (55:41.116)

I don't know, one of your favorite podcasters, perhaps the chat and cheese show and tell us what happened to you so we can do the dirty work for you. Don't torture your own career. Please don't do it. Like I just save yourselves. So some things are better left unsaid use your, you know, better judgment. And, you know, the other thing that I like to do is if I'm really angry about something, I sleep on it or I take a beat and I don't fire that email off. So please don't revenge quit Gen Z. That's.

Chad (55:49.856)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (56:10.867)

My plea to you. Listen, depression, skyrocketing, long-term unemployment, horrific for your health. The New York Times story that I read about this was gutting. This is a massive problem for college graduates right now. I don't know what the answer is. I know, you know, I listened to the episode last week with you and JT, Joel, and you know, I understand that...

we might have an opportunity to monetize some of our passions. I love that. I love that silver lining. And in fact, in that article that I read, there was a guy who was talking about how he couldn't find a job for like a whole year. And so he started creating board games, like one that helped people become titans of industry or something. And then another that was about another subject matter of interest to him. And he's figuring out how to make money off of that. That's great.

I think that's hard for the average person. I don't think everybody is going to have like a simple go of it doing that. But you know, that is, guess the flip side of this is that we're going to see a lot more sort of human creativity coming in and innovation, hopefully. But yeah, there is so much to contend with right now for Gen Z. And so that's why I find it. I'm threading the needle here. That's why I find it so absolutely incredible that they have this mindset around the great lock in, which is essentially like.

Joel Cheesman (57:03.499)

Hmm. Hmm.

Maureen Clough (57:27.911)

Hey, let's go. We got three months left in this year. And what they're doing here is basically saying, you know, the world's on freaking fire out there. Like we don't have control over basically anything. The world is burning. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to sit down and I'm going to focus on what I can control. so taking that personal accountability and ownership and in whatever way you can exert your agency, like putting it towards something positive. I mean, the fact that they're going through all of this and are still able to create this sort of grind set.

for personal development is I think really admirable. And I too will be freaking lock it in for the rest of the year because I don't know what the hell else to do with myself, right? Cause otherwise the opposite, I mean, the alternative is like not real cute. So hats off to Gen Z for being able to actually get themselves to do the great lock in for their own personal growth.

Chad (58:21.614)

So really quick, because I mean, you've covered it all, much, Mo, but the 6 % drop in degrees, give me a fucking break. We were adding degree requirements for no fucking reason other than filtering people out for years, right? So 6 % I think is low. Revenge quitting, here's all I have to say. Gen Z, listen up, kids.

Maureen Clough (58:40.136)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (58:49.719)

Comes Uncle Chad.

Chad (58:50.338)

You gotta have you gotta have money to actually do stuff, right? The market out there. I know if you've looked at the jobs numbers or not, but look at the jobs numbers. They're not fucking good. So do not quit unless you have an alternative, right? Don't do that. Don't do that. It might feel good in the moment. I know, right? But don't do it, right? Just feel.

Maureen Clough (58:55.091)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (59:03.933)

Mm-mm.

Maureen Clough (59:14.899)

you

Chad (59:20.418)

Get your feels out, talk to your friends, talk to your friend Mo, get your feels out, and then focus on what is best for you long-term. I know that's best probably for your mental wellness, but you'll get there, you'll get there. Make sure you have that backup plan, please, God, please.

Maureen Clough (59:24.499)

Your favorite podcasters, call us.

Maureen Clough (59:44.348)

Amen, amen.

Joel Cheesman (59:45.219)

All right, all right, it's my turn.

Maureen Clough (59:47.987)

Here comes Uncle Joel.

Chad (59:49.006)

Jesus Christ.

Joel Cheesman (59:53.065)

Are we surprised that this generation grew up with participation trophies, watched influencers on Instagram living their best life in San Tropez, watched everyone get rich quick off crypto and GameStop? I hate to break it to you kids, life is tough sometimes. When I graduated, there was a recession. And you know what? I didn't have eBay or DoorDash or Uber or Upwork.

Chad (59:54.36)

Grandpa Joel.

Maureen Clough (59:55.698)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (59:59.631)

Aw, Dirty!

Maureen Clough (01:00:20.627)

you

Joel Cheesman (01:00:21.827)

or all the other platforms out there that you can make money. I had to go like door to door and, and, and, you know, shovel snow. That's right. That's right. So I feel for you. Life is tough. AI is going to make life harder for everybody, but the parents of these kids have failed them and they have grown up in a soft environment. haven't known any hardship, most of them, and now they're getting a little hardship. Well, guess what? That's life kids. That's life. Look, my dad used to say,

Chad (01:00:25.166)

that you can take advantage of.

Chad (01:00:30.104)

So that was fun.

Maureen Clough (01:00:31.827)

you

Joel Cheesman (01:00:51.937)

The same boiling water that turns potatoes into mash also turns the egg into a hard boiled egg. You need to look in the mirror and decide, is this hot water going to turn you into mash or a hard boiled egg? That's all I got for you kids. Let's take a quick break. And when we get back, we'll talk a little Starbucks.

Chad (01:01:10.126)

You

Joel Cheesman (01:01:17.163)

that was very therapeutic for me. Thanks for, thanks for sitting back and, and digesting that, but maybe, maybe a nice, Hey, anyway, maybe nice espresso would be good. Starbucks baristas in Illinois, Colorado and California have filed lawsuits against the company's new dress code, claiming it violates state laws by requiring unreimbursed purchases of specific attire, like black shirts.

Chad (01:01:19.95)

I bet it was. I bet it was. Are you listening, Cole? Are you listening?

Maureen Clough (01:01:23.699)

I'm still.

Chad (01:01:29.038)

No, it's good, it's good.

Maureen Clough (01:01:32.231)

You

Joel Cheesman (01:01:46.719)

and waterproof shoes while banning certain tattoos and piercings. The company facing union tension says it provides two free shirts for consistency and a quote unquote warmer store vibe. Mo, you run our Seattle office. What the hell's going on at Starbucks?

Maureen Clough (01:02:08.231)

I mean, I'll say this, one of the people quoted in that article that I read about this very subject was saying that she was upset that she could no longer wear her crocs to work. To which I say, crocs are an absolute affront to humanity and should be banished from this planet. I also wanna say I have never even noticed a barista's shoes because they're behind a freaking counter, so there's that.

Chad (01:02:27.458)

Yes, yes.

Chad (01:02:34.851)

Yes.

Maureen Clough (01:02:36.295)

You know, I think it's deeply unfair for them to retroactively say, hey, no piercings, no tattoos, because those are a little bit hard to get rid of, you know? So if you're a current employee with those things, that freaking sucks. So don't like that at all. The other stuff, two shirts, cool. You know, maybe you can hook them up with a little more. I don't know about you, but I don't do laundry every two days and life's hard enough. And you know, if you really want to tamp down on people's creative expression and their attire and you want to have a unified customer experience, which

Chad (01:02:44.43)

yeah.

Maureen Clough (01:03:05.201)

By the way, is their right, this is their business, they can decree what people want to wear or whatever, or what they want people to wear rather. But like, why don't you just give them a uniform? Like at this point, if you really care about this, just provide them with ample uniforms, because right now you're leaving the door open for a lot of different interpretation and styles and a lot of different, you know, really annoying and extremely avoidable confrontations between employees and their management, right? Like there's just...

seems like such an own goal to me. Like just hook them up. And you know, if you really do want to let them make this call on their own, which it sounds like you don't, it sounds like you want them to look a certain way, then freaking just give them a little money. You know, a lot of these people are living paycheck to paycheck, right? Like hook them up. It's your Starbucks, okay? Like you can afford it. And this just, this whole hullabaloo is just so avoidable. And it's really...

Chad (01:03:36.302)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (01:03:58.278)

shitty press for Starbucks on top of the other shitty press they've gotten with, know, Brian Nichols flying to the headquarters on company jet while he tells everybody else in the corporate office to get their tails back in. I mean, it's just, this is a known goal. There's no reason why this should be happening. And, you know, I'm glad they have unions to be able to go to bat, but it's just like, this is just, in my opinion, like very clear management failure.

Chad (01:04:16.034)

Yeah.

Chad (01:04:29.388)

Welcome to the control economy, which feels like we're in. This actually reminds me of the military recruitment standards. For instance, if you have a face tattoo, you will not be recruited into the United States military. What? Unless we're at war. wait a minute, wait a minute. Or we're dramatically falling short of our recruitment goals. And then we use this thing we call a waiver to allow those individuals into the military.

Maureen Clough (01:04:33.0)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (01:04:43.155)

Thank

What?

Maureen Clough (01:04:50.403)

that makes sense.

Maureen Clough (01:04:56.423)

Chad (01:04:58.848)

until it's good for the US military, right? They don't want you. They don't want, and if you look at the current landscape today, the unemployment landscape is high. So people need jobs. And a new quote unquote dress code standards, yes I'm doing the air quotes kids, dress code standards make it easier for a company to discriminate with the use of the term company standards.

Maureen Clough (01:05:19.955)

You

Chad (01:05:28.398)

Right? This is nothing but discrimination masquerading as another set of corporate standards. Not to mention, you want to paint a broad brush? If you've ever been to Eugene, Oregon, they have a Starbucks. You try to find somebody from Oregon University, the Ducks, who, I don't know, they don't have tattoos. They don't have face piercings or what have you. This is, we're talking hippie

Maureen Clough (01:05:28.903)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (01:05:35.283)

Mm.

Chad (01:05:58.196)

USA, right? I understand this is the edge case, but I'm not sure that again, this is an own goal for them. It doesn't make sense. And at the end of the day, I really see this as kind of like the college standards that I was just talking about earlier. They're just going to move the bar whenever they can, whenever they need to, and they're allowed to because they're a company. But that doesn't mean that we can't see Brian Nicol as an asshole because we do.

Maureen Clough (01:06:25.587)

Cause we do. Sorry buddy. He'll cry into his millions of dollars.

Chad (01:06:31.874)

You

Joel Cheesman (01:06:35.139)

Alright guys, I'm sorry, I'm still on the porch. I'm yelling at the kids. I'm still salty. Okay, let's get to...

Chad (01:06:35.31)

Private jet.

Maureen Clough (01:06:47.667)

goody.

Joel Cheesman (01:06:48.481)

history lesson. One summer in college, I went to work for a restaurant in Houston, Texas called Papa Citos, which people in Texas will know Papa Citos and appreciate that. And when I went to go work for Papa Citos, they told me you have to wear black dungarees or dockers, whatever those pants are, which are awful. And you have to buy

Maureen Clough (01:06:52.371)

I love this. I love this.

Maureen Clough (01:07:00.561)

Amazing.

Joel Cheesman (01:07:13.155)

non-slip shoes because we're waiters. We're carrying around stuff. You don't want to slip on the floor and like hurt yourself and then hurt somebody else. They didn't give me shoes and pants. said, look, a prerequisite to work here is you have to buy these things. If you don't, there are plenty of other restaurants that you can go work for. Okay. Starbucks is not the only coffee house in the country. Okay. Go work somewhere else. Chipotle is hiring Taco Bell's hiring. Lots of people are hiring. You shouldn't expect.

Chad (01:07:17.356)

Whatever that means, yeah.

Maureen Clough (01:07:39.366)

I'm

Joel Cheesman (01:07:42.867)

shirts and shoes and all this attire. If you work there. Now, if you're competing with, with, with Starbucks, if you want the baristas to come work for you, if you're Dunkin' Donuts, maybe you're, you're, you're Luke and coffee from China is trying to break into the U S then go market to these folks and say, we'll give you the shoes. We'll give you the pants and start poaching, start poaching the Starbucks baristas and build your own business. But

Maureen Clough (01:07:47.699)

I don't know, man.

Joel Cheesman (01:08:08.301)

This to me, this is total whiny shit that you expect the company to buy your clothes. It's not the only job in town. It's not the only job in Eugene or Portland or anywhere else. Like Starbucks does not owe you a uniform if they don't want to. And you have options people, you have options.

Maureen Clough (01:08:26.739)

But sometimes they don't have options. Exactly. That's a privileged perspective. Yeah.

Chad (01:08:27.322)

Not all these people have options. They don't have options. And that's the thing that Joel doesn't get, right? Small town USA, small town USA doesn't have a lot of fucking options, period. And if you have a fucking face tattoo, this is not just about the bullshit fucking dungarees, Cheezmen. This is about motherfuckers who already have fucking holes in their face, holes in their, I mean, they already...

Maureen Clough (01:08:38.532)

Mm-mm. No.

Joel Cheesman (01:08:50.999)

Companies have every right to not hire you if you have a face tattoo.

Chad (01:08:54.254)

They've already been hired, but now the standards have been changed, right? Not to mention in the military where they do have these biased discrimination pieces, they still give you fucking stipends for uniforms. For uniforms. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, if you want to go ahead and, you know, learn how to learn how to dodge a bullet. Anyway, at the end of the day, to be able to think that everybody

Joel Cheesman (01:09:06.243)

It's a government employer. Different animal. Different animal.

Chad (01:09:23.362)

should walk in your path and your shoes because you had to do it is fucking bullshit. And we need to stop that kind of thought process. And I'm gonna go ahead and allow a little moment of silence while Mo gets ready to tear into you. Carry on.

Maureen Clough (01:09:36.851)

You

Joel Cheesman (01:09:39.213)

Well, let me interject this chat. I've been to every every city in the country and they all have Arby's. So there is opportunity at the Arby's.

Maureen Clough (01:09:45.243)

my god.

That's amazing. Not so much. Thankfully. I mean, we don't need more Arby's on this planet. yeah, I just, I feel like, like I get what you're saying, but I want to double down on everything that Chad said. mean, not everybody is set up to go and purchase said garments and you know, Hey, like, sure. You could be a Dick employer and be like, yeah, we only want the people who have enough money to, to buy this shit before they come work for us. But.

Chad (01:09:49.55)

I would say not so much, but go ahead.

Joel Cheesman (01:09:58.251)

Lies.

Maureen Clough (01:10:19.025)

Is that the kind of world we want? mean, sure, they have the right to, but is it right? I don't know. And so, I don't know, I would love to see, I don't know how we fix this. It just bumps me out, I gotta say.

Chad (01:10:32.654)

It goes back. OK, so let's take a look at college debt, right? All these motherfuckers are like, well, I had to pay. Well, it's like, yeah, but if you didn't, wouldn't it be fucking great? Wouldn't it? Would it not have been great? Yes. So so, yeah, because because because you went through those fucking hardships and you had to pay the stupidity fucking tax. Right. Now everybody does. And it's total fucking bullshit. Anyway.

Maureen Clough (01:10:39.195)

Yeah, yeah, Right? Like, don't wish ill on... Yes. Exactly. Can we have progress? Progress is good. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (01:10:53.789)

hate that.

Maureen Clough (01:10:58.087)

We should have progress. Yeah, I agree. Think about others. Golden rule. okay. I'm bracing myself, bracing myself.

Joel Cheesman (01:11:01.443)

Free shit for everybody and free dad jokes for everybody. Free dad jokes for everybody, kids.

Chad (01:11:06.216)

I believe in the free dad jokes. Yes, free dad jokes.

No, he's got the book.

Maureen Clough (01:11:12.658)

Ha ha!

Joel Cheesman (01:11:12.803)

What do you call a million rabbits walking backwards?

Joel Cheesman (01:11:24.585)

A receding hairline.

Chad (01:11:25.016)

I don't

Maureen Clough (01:11:26.387)

That was PG. loved it. Good job, Joel. Love. Love.

Chad (01:11:31.224)

See? Very good.

Joel Cheesman (01:11:33.953)

You're welcome kids, you're welcome kids. Now get off my lawn, god damn it.

Joel Cheesman (01:11:43.233)

We out.

Maureen Clough (01:11:43.838)

We out.

Chad (01:11:43.894)

We out.