Trump and job boards finally made the podcast as one story. Rejoice and all hail the podcast gods.
What else is in this week's show?
- Will Artificial Intelligence takeover Board of Director positions?
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Disability Solutions partners with employers on disability inclusion initiatives to design scalable solutions to support strategic and operational goals in staffing, training, retention, compliance and engagement.
Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel: Gobble, gobble, hidy-ho boys and girls. It's another weekly episode of Chad and Cheese. HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash.
Joel: Good to know. This week, Google is out performing Indeed. LinkedIn is on
pace for two billion, that's billion with a B. And Donald Trump loves Job Boards.
Joel: And this week's show is full of jive turkeys. Stay tuned for all the fixings right her after a word from JobAdX.
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Chad: I don't know that smarter has anything to do with this podcast by the way.
Joel: I say it's funny, but found the last remaining valley girl for their ad. Oh my God programmatic advertising.
Chad: So good.
Joel: Let's get the shout outs man. We got a long show today. I was hoping for an abbreviated version but not so lucky.
Chad: That's for next week.
Joel: I'll lead it off with Debbie Salado. I'm probably butchering that name, Citizens Bank. This is sort of self-interest. She's at Citizens Bank who I'm pitching tomorrow. However, she wasn't higher comp and we missed each other. So there is a little bit of a segue that makes sense. She is a fan of the show and we appreciate it. Thanks, Debbie.
Chad: Buy Something Debbie, please, please buy something.
Joel: Write a check Debbie, please, Christmas is coming.
Chad: Congrats to Ethan and Veronica. Now Bloomfield, they just got married. In their new home in Costa Rica. I just saw pictures of a flower laden, oxen pulling new married couple in a cart on a dirt road in Costa Rica. I mean that my friend is the life.
Joel: So romantic.
Chad: It awesome dude.
Joel: Shout out to New York City. We've done a lot of talk about higher cone from the show live this week, but the big apple never disappoints. We did the statue of Liberty, Ellis Island, Central Park at a cab. Good food. Good company. Laughs all around. And by the way, Mexico, the Mexican Barbecue Fusion Restaurant was a pleasant surprise for me at least.
Chad: Yeah. two Tecate with like TABASCO sauce and sprinkled with some ... What the hell was that?
Joel: It was a hot sauce and fused beer Tecate, as you mentioned, with a like a dusting of hot sauce. It was rather pleasant. I enjoyed it.
Chad: That was very pleasant. We went from one place which was more kind of high scale, and then we went to Mexique and that's where I think we felt pretty comfortable there.
Joel: We were much more in our element. Mexican Barbecue and Fusion Restaurant.
Chad: Yes. Shout out to Michael Ang from Job Elephant. Thanks for listening man. Sorry we weren't more heavy handed with handshake. Steven Rothberg would agree with you by the way.
Joel: What a great shout out. I wanted to talk about that when we brought up the Ed Newman to the middleman because this was a great. We did the handshake story and he came out and said handshake is a piling hot, steamy garbage pail of a site. So that was an interesting perspective, from handshake. So thanks for that.
Chad: Thanks. So thanks Michael. And a shout out to Vervoe, Vervoe, something that is not hot and steamy. Remember the Terry Tate Office Linebacker Reebok commercials. Remember those?
Joel: Men of a certain age I'll remember that commercial.
Chad: If you have never seen Terry Tate, the office linebacker go to YouTube, this very second type and Terry Tate's office linebacker. Watch those. They're fricking hilarious. So anyway, Vervoe, they put out these, this really cool ad. It was funny. It was centered around the people in the office and was really slick. It just, it reminded me of those office linebacker, without the concussions of course. But it was a really good ad. Good job for Vervoe and Omer over there.
Joel: Yeah. Australian companies are really great at not taking themselves too seriously. Shout out to thanksgiving.
Joel: May be my favorite holiday. You don't have to have show up with gifts. You can eat and drink all you want and it's totally acceptable. And there's football on TV.
Chad: Yeah. Well, and sticking with that shout out to Ezekiel Elliott formally of the Ohio State University and currently running back with the Dallas Cowboys Zeke nailed 155 or I'm sorry, 151 yards rushing and one TD, but the big key here was hurdling over Trey Sullivan and totally poster rising him. That was pretty amazing.
Joel: Our affiliated ends aren't going to like that shout out, but-
Chad: That was especially for Ed.
Joel: I'll shut out from my wife who has Zeke on her fantasy squad who gave her a miraculous comeback on Monday night with his three touchdowns to win her the weekend fantasy. So I'll speak for her on that one.
Chad: Very nice. Very nice. Got a ven cat who you like to call big cat, CEO and founder of Job Yak. Who was on.
Joel: I thought a mere cat as well. Which when mere cat. Why didn't I think of that one?
Chad: That's so much more funny. He was on firing squad with Jobiak. So if you're going to check out the live show from New York City, do that, but also check out the newest firing squad with a big cat or mere cat from Job Yak. It's pretty awesome.
Joel: Either way, if you're a CEO out there this dude knows how to work the social aspect from an interview.
Chad: Oh yeah.
Joel: All over Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook. I mean, granted he has 60 engineers that I'll probably just do whatever the hell he says, but the number of shares and likes and everything from his stuff was really impressive. So if you're a CEO and you get interviewed, like take a tip from Meercat, How to get the most leverage from your social presence.
Chad: Not to mention he was concise. You've got to listen to the show. He was concise. He had his stuff together and he knew that Chad & Cheese podcast Firing Squad would be a great vehicle for his startup to actually sell. And obviously at the end of the day he's going to get graded by us and he could possibly get the Firing Squad. But the guy was confident. He was concise and at the end of the day had a really good show with him, but he knew how to leverage the podcast to be able to get out there.
Joel: Dude's a stud and Thank God we got away from the chat bot trend of Firing Squad. That was a nice change of pace for sure.
Chad: It was but that Russian female kind of sound wasn't bad. It made for a very good diverse effect between two dumb American guys.
Chad: My last shout out is to all of our sponsors and anybody out there listening. I had this amazing, incredibly smart idea for marketing for the holidays. And you still have time to do it. You can pull this off. You should do ugly sweaters with your logo in the ugly sweater itself. Obviously you're going to have to send something to Chad & Cheese because we came up with the idea. But that's the best swag for this time of year, don't you think?
Joel: All right, don't connect me to this bad idea.
Chad: That's a great idea.
Joel: And did you call it genius? Did I hear the word genius come out of your mouth?
Chad: Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty genius.
Joel: My last shout out goes to the book Circa 2118, which I have not read yet and we are doing an interview with Peter on the books, so I should get to reading it here pretty quickly. But I'm sure it's a great book. Everything I've heard, some of the views I've read are fantastic. So if you're in the workforce arena and we know you all are a circa 2118 is a must read for the holidays or a gift to give going into 2019,
Chad: I would say I would classify it as going from dystopia to utopia. There you go.
Joel: That's deep. That's deep.
Chad: It is a deep book.
Joel: On that, let's get to the show. What do you think?
Joel: Indeed. With some new terms of service, what's going on there?
Chad: What dumb asses. So Indeed we just had a policy on staffing, right? They're kicking all of staffing out of their organic because their jobs just aren't good enough unless you pay. And then obviously their jobs are just fine, right? You've got shitty jobs, guys. We don't want them in our organic. Oh, wait a minute, you're gonna pay us. Oh, okay. Well let's go ahead and put them back in. This time it's a policy on talent networks. So the definition of a talent network from our friends. I use that term loosely at Indeed. Here's what the definition is. A talent network is a group of candidates that have expressed their interest in a specific company's job openings. Job Seekers opt in by giving their contact information to receive updates on new job openings and the company benefits by maintaining a list of interested candidates.
Chad: In some cases, companies will take contact information from a job application and add the job seeker to their new network without the job seeker's knowledge. That's what their definition of a talent network is. There a new policy, you want to hit the new policy?
Joel: Oh yeah, sure. Bullet points. This is fun. Joining a talent network must be a completely optional. It must be clear that talent network is not associated with the application process. Joining a talent network must occur after the apply process is clearly finished, not before. A talent network cannot be part of a larger share talent pool. Job Seekers should not receive contexts from any third parties. Communication must be limited to the updates on new specific vacancies at your company. And I love the explanation. Give me the explanation one. Okay.
Joel: The explanation for Alex's talent networks often create a bad user experience. Candidates should not be funneled through any process other than a direct application for the position.
Chad: So my first question is, will Indeed allow jobs leading to these talent networks in their organic if they're paid postings. Right. And just a reminder, once again, In deed's doing this for staffing. Well, they're not doing it in the organic. The only way that you can get it for staffing companies in the paid area, but they're talking about this bad experience. Right? And they've done the same thing with staffing companies. Are they going to do the same thing with companies? Are they gonna say, well it's a bad experience, but guess what if you're paying us, I guess the experience really just isn't that bad.
Joel: To me this feels like Indeed is just sort of gradually screwing everybody that it can without getting really over cross the line. So the first screw was Job Boards, right?
Joel: Like, okay, your jobs are sort of duplicitous and crappy, but if you pay us like you're good to go and we're moving into like if you're staffing company you're no good if you're a Smashfly or like CRM-
Chad: Like the Phenom.
Joel: Like phenom into T like, you're no good, they're never probably going to bleed into the direct employers being no good, but they're definitely, I think sticking it to as many entities as they can to suck out as much profit as possible.
Chad: Well, okay. So that first line joining a talent network must be completely optional for the job seeker. I thought that seems doable and then I fricking smack myself and woke up and said fuck that. The direct employer pays for that talent network for the middleman, for the layer of cosmetic process, whatever the hell you want to call it, right? Who the hell is Indeed to dictate terms on how that company does business Indeed can suggest best practices and demonstrate those with case studies, Yada, yada yada. But you're not dictating anything assholes. I mean, that's the stance that a company needs to take. They are in fact impacting direct employers because employers are choosing to use those platforms for one reason or another, whether it's marketing or being able to keep candidates or individuals engaged. If they don't have a job for them now, they want to be able to keep them engaged. They use those platforms to do that now indeed saying, "Yeah, sorry employer, we know that you're paying for that, but not gonna happen." It's bullshit.
Joel: This is a big plan for them to release their own CRM that they can funnel people into.
Chad: Yeah, yeah. Well, somebody commented to me, he said it's free traffic on indeed. So Indeed can do whatever they want to do. And I agree that there's no question, but it's also content and without content indeed would be dead.
Joel: Yeah, I remember that comment. I think it was on social media that someone said that. And I totally agree with it, but there's, if you build an expectation as a service and people respond and create, build their own services around that and you pulled the rug from under them. I mean it's not like super cool. I understand that it's done and it can be done. But like for job boards, job boards were enjoying free traffic on Indeed and some paid for higher things and then Indeed pulled the rug out from under them and people were surprised at that because they've had sort of expected this service to sort of adhere to what they had always done. And people normally like when companies change stuff, so I get it. But there's also an expectation that things as they are shouldn't change too drastically. I mean, when Google does this, they sort of slowly and algorithmically change stuff. And I could see where indeed would change its algorithm to put these kinds of jobs at the page nine and 10 of the results to sort of smack them around and give them that information or that penalty passive aggressively as opposed to something like this that's a little bit more aggressive, but it's their business.
Chad: well, since all staffing jobs are going to be banned from Indeed organic at the first of the year, the search quality team isn't focused on identifying staffing companies anymore. So they're looking for other things to fuck up. Right? I mean, that's pretty much what's happening. Oh, we're not going to, we can't mess with staffing anymore because staffing is gone. They're out of the organic. So what are we going to focus on next? And last but not least, let's just be clear Indeed throws clicks and apps. Little of which are actually qualified applicants. So as they continue to do this and really cut off revenues to an extent other companies like the ZipRecruiter of the world and in other platforms that are focused on qualified, just only driving qualified candidates, they're the ones that are going to be the winner in this long term. Kind of a once again makes me feel like the monster and CareerBuilder of old when they were on the top of the mountain and they were just so proud of themselves. And then they got their ass kicked right off the top.
Joel: Which leads us, I think into our next story. Getting kicked in the what... I don't think we've ever talked about before. Had a blog post up this week or last week where they are seeing evidence from their postings that Google is outperforming Indeed, which we've been predicting for a long time. A quote from the story. I'm now seeing that Google for jobs as a top three source for traffic for our clients beating Indeed in many cases. And then goes into sort of how the see, what traffic sources are the highest rank, so not a year into Google for jobs and we're seeing them beating indeed for this company's clients, which is expected.
Chad: Yeah. And it's gonna happen even more as applicant tracking system start to do markups for all their feeds as obviously the middleman. So again, this just makes the fee norms and the smash flies and the clenches and all those platforms really focus on, okay, great if you're going, if you're going to come up with those bullshit types of policies, what we're gonna do is we're going to find ways to be able to replace that traffic. And we've heard of companies replacing that traffic and just moving on saying, guess what, you're not going to get my dollar. You're not going to get my vote.
Joel: Yeah. And if just to word those of you outlet out there listening, if you're tracking your traffic and your seeing Google for jobs overtaken Indeed, we'd love to hear story hit us at chadcheese.com or #ChadCheese on Twitter.
Chad: Yeah. Or if you are from a talent network company or a direct employer ad agency and want to kind of give us some insights to this new policy and your feelings and whatnot. On the record, off the record, doesn't matter. Definitely hit us up on LinkedIn or Facebook or even on the LinkedIn Messenger.
Joel: Or just send us a random email with a fake address.
Chad: Don't do that.
Joel: And deep throat on it.
Chad: Don't do that.
Joel: All right. Facebook also vying for a nice piece of the Employment Pie. They continue to enhance their jobs component. A quick shout out to Chris Russell, friend of the show who has the most on his Rec Tech blog. The two enhancements city highlights easy share of jobs to groups and a new manage jobs tab from the pages site.
Chad: Yeah. Yeah, have you ever used Marketplace to sell anything?
Joel: I've purchased, I'm trying to think of fire sold something.
Chad: I mean I just, I just did this week. I mean it's really simple because you put it up on Marketplace and then Marketplace gives you a list of groups that you can post into. This sounds exactly like, I mean, again, it's predicated on marketplace anyway. So it just sounds like it's the same type of functionality to be able to provide more broad based distribution into groups that could be kind of niche groups that are focused on the types of jobs that you're posting.
Joel: Yeah, we actually have, now that you were talking have sold some stuff, bought some stuff. And we don't talk very much about Facebook and the impact on Craigslist, but it's got to be taking a hit Craigslist meaning, I had someone, I posted a job for a sort an odd job here around the house and I had to pay $5, which, yeah, is not a big deal, but how many people are saying, screw that. I thing $5 on Craigslist. I'm sure it's more money in certain markets, but and gravitating toward Facebook as a result. So I think everything I've heard from Facebook Marketplace has been positive, numbers out of Facebook is that one and for users on Facebook, I've looked for a job. We're hearing salespeople talk about Facebook being one of the top sort of questions and sources that companies are asking about. so yeah, we don't fall asleep on Facebook, but I think it's a lot of people are in danger of doing so. It shouldn't.
Chad: You had somebody come to your house and actually do something that you didn't want to do and it only costs five bucks and you think that's expensive. You cheap bastard.
Joel: I think I said - if you roll the tape back - that's not a lot of money.
Chad: Okay, good.
Joel: But it is very small little hurdle for people to put ... Craigslist for 15 years was free dude for just about everything and now it's not. So anyway.
Joel: Let's break up this ridiculousness with a word from sovereign and then we'll talk about, I don't know what LinkedIn, Skills Gaps. All kinds of funs.
Chad: Yep. Strike up that band Joe.
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Chad: Okay. So that was not a banjo. But next time guys at Sovren, I want to request tha