Like the Oscars, Emmy’s or Razzies, employers around the world await Glassdoor’s ‘Best Places to Work’ with great anticipation. Ehhh, not so much, but we’ll discuss it anyway. We’ll also dig into
- Dice CEO Art Zeile is dodging the pod
- and (serenity now!) the rise of Gen Z.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level.
Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel: Hell yeah, Die Hard is a Christmas movie. Yippee-ki-yay, motherfuckers. You're listening to Chad and Cheese, HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash.
Joel: On this week's show, straight outta beta. Hire by Google unleashes candidate discovery for the masses. Glassdoor's out with it's Best Places to Work, and Facebook is not number one. And if you thought millennials suck, and I do, wait'll you get a load of Gen Z. Mom's clickin' chicken and collard greens. We'll be right back after a word from JobAdX, who's celebrating a birthday this month.
JobAdX: With JobAdX's first birthday almost here, we are proud of all we've accomplished with advertising clients, publisher job sites, recruitment marketing agencies, and staffing firms. Thank you for all the support and trust you have placed in us. Since 2017, JobAdX has used the best of consumer ad text bidding, and ad delivery, to build an incredible programmatic job advertising exchange, and continue to rapidly grow our network of partner sites. We've also launched a feed inventory management platform called Switchboard, effectively offering our dynamic technologies to all job board partners. And, we've developed our revolutionary live alert, which eliminates latency and expired job ads via email. No more dead clicks or overages from job links whether open today, next month, or next year. For more information about our solutions please reach us at join us at JobAdX.com.
Chad: Happy birthday.
Joel: Well hopefully my audio's better this week.
Chad: You sound better, at least from my standpoint you sound better.
Joel: Do I sound sexy though?
Chad: You always sound sexy. You sound even more sexy.
Joel: That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, dude. Happy birthday, JobAdX celebrating one year. Obviously still around because they advertise on the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Chad: Well yeah. Duh.
Joel: Give me your Dice rant real quick.
Chad: Okay, so, this is pretty funny. I reached out to Dice just to be able to see if we could get Art on the show, because when we saw him down in New Orleans he pretty much ran from us. We were like, hey dude, we want to get you on the show, we want to do an interview with you. And he was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I think he just hit the eject button, got the fuck out.
Joel: Didn't he jump out of a window? No? I think I remember seeing that. Maybe. Maybe not.
Chad: He could have. But I reached out and I was like, hey, look, we'd like to get Art on the show, get an interview. Obviously we had Mike Durney before, who's the old CEO. And got the very prompt response that says pretty much, thanks but no thanks.
Joel: Yeah, that's pretty weak man. We've interviewed some decent folks, including, as you said, the former Dice CEO. I thought we were very respectable. Obviously we didn't come with softball questions.
Joel: But yeah. Art, dude. You should come out, man. It's all good. We'll be nice, we'll be fair, we'll be a little bit tough. But it's all good. The only thing I can think of is they're in the midst of a sell or something, a sale. Maybe don't want to rock the boat with some weird interview on some weird podcast with two knuckleheads.
Chad: Yeah. It's still, it's all about transparency, right? If you're afraid to actually come on a podcast where you know you're gonna get hard questions, and we're not just gonna throw fluff at you, then your game is pretty fucking weak.
Joel: Part of your job, I believe, as a CEO is to be out in the public. To be the voice of a company, to justify the vision, to frame the activities that are going on. To me, CEOs that don't do that fail in their CEO roles.
Chad: Weak man, weak.
Joel: I'm gonna give a shout out to Gap.
Joel: I'm a loyal Gap user, buyer, customer. I probably joined their email list back in the early 2000's, I still get emails. But for the first time that I can remember, I got an email from them saying basically, love Gap? We're hiring. With an email of sort of branding message, why it's a great place to work, click here to link to jobs.
Joel: I bring this up as a shout out simply because, retailers in particular who don't take advantage of their fans to promote jobs, I think are really missing a grand opportunity. I can only imagine how many people are in Gap's database, and how many applies they probably got from this campaign. I know what you're gonna say, you're gonna say like, likewise, anyone who applies for a job for Gap should be getting marketing messages in some fashion if they opt into them from Gap. So it kinda works both ways, but kudos and shout out to Gap for at least taking that step of saying hey, you're on our list as a buyer, we'd love to have you as an employee. Or hey, forward this to someone who might be. Kudos to them for doing that.
Chad: Yeah. Well you could see in the email, I would assume they were live links, that you could obviously go and take a look at jobs, or you could shop. So it was like, hey, lets go ahead and hit this from both angles because it is the brand that you obviously like. Yeah, pretty cool.
Joel: It all took me to Gap.
Chad: All about the Gap man.
Joel: That's for sure. And I probably got a pair of socks while I was there.
Chad: Okay, so dude, we have to talk about one of the funniest things
that just happened. So, Joel and I were prepping for this call, and Joel received a call from his pre-op nurse, to talk about his colonoscopy tomorrow. And it was the funniest fucking call, ever.
Joel: The thing is, if you work in the endoscopy industry, you've gotta have a pretty good sense of humor. I will also highlight the fact that there's nothing wrong with me, knock on wood. I'm going up for my annual or whatever, not annual, but my checkup, shout out to my anus. I guess we'll bring that in there as well. This is virgin territory so I'm praying for a gentle doctor tomorrow. Otherwise, yeah, everyone goes through this particularly males that are aging in the realm that we are, I'm sure you'll be up for your inspection soon as well. And we can make fun of you when that day comes up.
Chad: Soon to be your monthly visit for your monthly colonoscopy.
Joel: Yes. By the way, we're recording in the morning, which we normally do anyway, but at two o'clock I take about a handful of Dulcolax. I will be in the toilet for the rest of the day.
Chad: Okay, too far.
Joel: On Thursday or Friday, Thursday, yeah. If you called me Thursday by the time this comes out and I didn't answer, this is why.
Chad: Too far. Lets go ahead and switch gears. So shout out to David, an engineering nerd herder at Amazon who loved Chad and Cheese chat bot episode with Quincy. Shared a picture of him listening to Chad and Cheese while walking his dog, so a double shout out, a Chad and Cheese pod fan and a dog lover. You gotta love that.
Joel: Yeah, that was a great picture. And by the way, you shared his Twitter account. Did he share it on Twitter, I believe?
Chad: Yeah, it was on Twitter.
Joel: And his Twitter bio pretty much read like the ideal Chad and Cheese fan. So aside from being the engineering nerd herder at Amazon, he's a fan of 80's hair bands, he likes the Giants, Fender guitars, and he's fueled by cookies and chocolate milk. If that doesn't say Chad and Cheese demographic, I don't know what does.
Chad: That's targeted right there. Also, talking about the chat bot episode, it almost killed Ed. For all of you that are out there, if you don't know about the chat bot drinking game for Chad and Cheese, whenever we say chat bot, that's when you're supposed to take a shot. So, I think it took Ed a week to get through just that podcast, and it nearly kill him.
Joel: If the Eagles won't kill him we probably will.
Joel: Shout out to Jobiak, a firing squad alum, recently launched w w w aremyjobsongoogle.com. You can plug in a URL of your job posting and see if it's on Google or not. The drawback of this is you have to submit your email address, which obviously becomes a sales lead for them, so be sure to prep yourself for emails and calls if you do find out if your jobs are on Google on not.
Chad: Yes. My last shout out is to Tim Sackett for thinking that his hugs aren't forced. I like how Tim is up front about how he wants to get a hug from just about everybody, but if you get in range you're getting a hug. So everybody who's out there, if you've never met Tim and you want to be able to obviously make eye contact and wave, you need to quickly wave and turn the other way and get the hell out of the AO because, you're gonna get a hug if you're not looking for one.
Joel: Yeah. I'm starting to think that this is why he wears bow ties, that he can sort of put you in a trance with his bow tie and next thing you know he's got you in a bear hug. So, we're on to you Tim, we're on to you.
Joel: Shout out to SmashFly, who just announced with Tim, speaking of Mr. Sackett, Transform Live, SmashFly's annual conference is coming back. So in 2019 they'll do it again, Sackett is gonna be the MC. I've heard rumors that Chad Cheese might show up to some degree, but shout out to SmashFly and Josh Lane whose also been an interviewee on the show did a great job. Shout out to those guys.
Joel: And also, lastly, Chastity Melvin, the first female and African American coach, well female African American coach, at the Charlotte Hornets and the ... I'm spacing on it. Was it the WNBA team as well? Anyway, shout out to her for making another step up the ladder.
Chad: Yeah, she was on the WNBA team, but she's actually going to be coaching an NBA team, correct?
Joel: The Hornets.
Chad: Good job. That's ...
Joel: Or the Bobcats.
Chad: I don't fuckin' know.
Joel: Yeah, it's a bad city for basketball unless it's North Carolina or Duke. Good God. You wanna get to the show?
Chad: Yeah! Do this.
Joel: Do this. Google, straight outta beta with their candidate discovery tool. First talked about this in March or April. Basically, they put Google search capabilities into your own ATS. Now when you post jobs they sort of let you discover candidates that are deep inside your database that you've forgotten about. They also allow you to mass email, I'm sure through Gmail, those folks that are in that database to contact them and I'm sure, from that point, they go through the screening and the scheduling and the whole Google-y experience.
Chad: Yes. So, this is a warning flare for every recruiting platform in this space. Not just applicant tracking systems. Obviously for the applicant tracking system that don't have any type of matching technology, AI matching technology, you just allowed an upstart SMB applicant tracking system to provider better tech than you can provide. An upstart, they're not even two years old yet, are they?
Chad: Yeah, so Hire has better job search, number one, from the Google talent solutions cloud, whatever the hell that thing's called. API. So from the candidate side you're getting better job search, better matches there. And now, better candidate matching in the search. So, applicant tracking systems, if you don't see that you need to actually help companies leverage their candidate database you're gonna get your asses handed to ya.
Chad: Now for job sites, here's another thing. Job sites need to think about this as well. Anything with a candidate database. The day of CPC and CPA are really fucking over because it's all about qualified candidates. Focusing on the qualifications piece, doing this matching piece, that's where everybody needs to start stepping, because if they're not and they're just focusing on apps, then they're already behind.
Joel: You know this is a trend. You're way behind if you're not into this. Google isn't necessarily blazing a trail, UnCommon we've talked to, has sort of this automated sourcing. Ex Recruit partnered with Next to build in a sourcing tool for what they do. Crowded we've talked about, they're sort of on the forefront of some of this stuff. Leper and ATS, this is part of their stuff.
Joel: The trend is definitely going in this direction, and if you're an ATS that isn't providing this or even a job board, you're really behind the times. And LinkedIn as well, we reported a similar S and B tool where you post the job and they pull people from the LinkedIn database that are potential candidates for the job that you just posted. It's a trend that's gonna happen.
Joel: What I'm waiting for, and I think what you are as well is, when is Google gonna open this thing up to the whole internet?
Chad: Oh yeah.
Joel: Or at least internet, as much as the internet as Google can find and deliver to you as possible. Because
Joel: As much of the internet that Google can find and deliver to you as possible because that's going to happen it's just a matter of what it looks like and how much the global bureaucracy and the governmental hands can mess this thing up.
Joel: That's going to happen certainly at least in North America
Chad: Before you even get there though, I mean this is for all the talent
acquisition professionals that are listening, you've paid millions and some of you tens of millions of dollars over the years to build candidate databases in your applicant tracking system that you never leverage . I mean that data is just there, it's going to atrophy so this is the time to start demanding that that asset is used because you're spending money every single day to buy the same damn candidates over and over and over, so if you're not talking to the Entelos, Hiring Solved, Uncommons obviously then you're doing it all wrong, you're spending a bunch of money to try to obtain candidates that you already have, that makes no fucking sense what so ever. So obviously your search in your applicant tracking system in most cases sucks, totally get that that's why you need these matching technologies and these APIs to surface qualified candidates and help your sources and recruiters get to qualified people faster.
Joel: Yep, the lines between marketing the recruiting continue to blur, that's why we're seeing drip campaigns from folks like Texture Crew, we're seeing these sort if wake up the dead, keep your databases active. This is all good stuff it's just recruiting as behind at the times and needs to catch up.
Chad: Yeah and Candid ID is doing that waking the dead kind of a thing too but that's more marketing centric so, yeah there's so much that's out there today that can help you leverage the money that you've already spent in building a foundation of can't qualified candidates. If you're focusing on, "Where am I gonna post my jobs?" Dude you are so fucking far out there, you're not even close to focused on what you should be targeting in on and that's your candidate database.
Joel: We're talking about waking the dead and I had deleted all of the Halloween sound bytes from our soundboard and I'm very, very upset by that. Or Glassdoors, speaking of branding and experience and all that good stuff, released their best places to work list, this is a very exciting time for many companies cause they can put little logos on their sites and advertisements and talk about how great they are. The top ten list reads as follows, this is sort of a broad list of big companies that you know probably, Facebook is not number one any more, they dropped from number one to number seven.
Joel: 4.6 is number one, Facebook is 4.5 so it's not like a huge drop that they've done from a overall standpoint but Bain & Company comes in at number one, I don't even know who that is, Zoom Video Communications, don't know who that is, number three is In-N-Out Burger, definitely know who they are, I'm craving them right now but I can't eat for the next 24 hours, number four and they're not in Indiana, number four Procore Technologies, nope don't know them, Boston Consulting, do you know them? Number six linked in the first I guess Job Site employment related company on the list, number seven is Facebook like we said, number eight is Google, number nine Lululemon which is your favorite yoga pant from what I understand and number ten South West Airlines. SO the first five are a little bit bizarre even In-N-Out Burger like to have high ratings for Glassdoor from a burger joint is kind of interesting.
Joel: They've got that going on there but any thoughts from you on that top ten list?
Chad: Yeah I mean I think Zoom is like video conferencing, I think that's one that is, I could be wrong but yeah it doesn't really surprise me especially seeing Facebook take a tumble I mean it wasn't that big of a tumble I mean Facebook rating is now 4.5 among US worker is still a full point higher than the rest of the average companies and were they really gonna be number one forever? Facebook pays top dollar, this is from one of the articles that I was reading, but the employees increasingly don't want to work for a company that runs it's business without any ethical barometer, so obviously Cambridge Analytica happened, that's still bad and yeah it might have been a while ago but it's still hurting and then the recent articles like delay, deny and deflect that came out in the New York Times that again are starting to expose that look, leadership knew that bad shit was happening and they didn't do anything about it but yet they've been preaching to us that we are the savior of the internet right and they're finding that a good amount of that's bullshit and obviously that's gonna hit their ranking.
Joel: Yeah, Facebook is kind of a mess right now, not only the stuff you mentioned but people are leaving the company, Facebook employers are really aggressively asking around who's hiring and applying to other companies around Silicon Valley which is an incredibly competitive environment, you've got the African American employees of Facebook coming out and saying that the company is very sort of unfair to African American employees to the point even I remember a story of some of the white employees would sort of put their hand over their wallets when they'd walk by, this one African American is suing the company, but that's some messed up stuff and if you have that kind of reputation people don't wanna work for you like there are a lot of other options out in Silicon Valley that aren't named Facebook that people would love to work for.
Chad: And it sounds like Facebook is turning into the career builder of the social media marketing side of the house.
Joel: It's not that bad. So anyway here's their top ten list of like what employees said they need to have in these great work places, I'll go from ten to one Letterman-style number ten is the ability to have work life balance, number nine challenging and exciting work, number eight transparent senior leadership, we just talked about that, number seven opportunities for career advancement, number six that the company has a clear direction, number five great perks and benefits, number four competitive compensation, got to get paid, number three smart collaborative colleges, that's kind of interesting, number two employees need to feel valued, well yeah, number one a mission driven company culture. No big surprises on that list but so few companies do it well.
Chad: Yeah, I think that list in itself talk about transparency, talk about hiring the best so that you don't wanna be the smartest guy in the room because if that's the case then you're probably not in the best company in the world, so yeah that's a good list when you're building a company, it's not easy to obtain obviously but the biggest issue I would say because Facebook does pay well and they've got great benefits is that they have individuals who are coming there that really are focused on the altruistic peace of Facebook and now that has pretty much been shattered.
Joel: Yeah, it's also interesting to see Google over the years fall from this list, they used to have a pretty solid grip on not necessarily Glassdoor cause Glassdoor is not that old but I remember in the 2000s Google was consistently number one in terms of the best place to work, I mean they were the first one to sort of trail blaze free food and volley ball pits and gyms and they really set the tone for a lot of companies to improve their workplaces so to see them sorta drop is interesting I guess.
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Chad: I love the, "We keep the human, that's you"
Joel: I love that.
Chad: That's you just in case you didn't know, you're the human and we'll be getting rid of you soon.
Joel: You had a nice ride human beings, enjoy it while it lasts. Linkedin, I think this was a link shared by James Ellis our buddy Groupon employment branding expert and fellow podcaster, Linkedin is now starting to request salary data and provide salary data to their users, so if you go to the link that their promoting the salary information it sort of locks you to saying, "Tell us about your role in salary to unlock free in sites for the year, see salaries for various role, companies and more" so you have to sort of give to get with Linkedin here, they're not just going to like I don't know payscale.com or something in getting that kinda data, they're looking for sort of real time data from their users. I think this is valuable information, people want it and Linkedin is tarting to do it whether you agree with how they're doing it is up to debate but certainly having that data is gonna be valuable for them.
Chad: It doesn't matter what you think, they're getting the data because they're asking individuals to be transparent and that being said of being transparent, I don't think that James is at Groupon anymore.
Joel: Oh really?
Chad: Yeah, so salary transparency when companies aren't posting it, that's one of the issues that we've seen over the years is that companies have really kinda scaled down the information that they wanna share with the public and one of those pieces is salary and that's a pretty important piece and even Google and Google for jobs has said that that is a piece of information that they want and they need so if you're providing that information you could perspectively rank higher so there's reasons that this is happening is because we need more transparency in this industry.
Chad: So where can you get it? You get it from the employees and I went through the process, it was pretty cool, there was just a button that said, "Enter your information, enter you salary information" to get to a page that said, "See if you're being paid like other professionals" and that's how they draw you in, it's like, "Okay, are you getting screwed, why don't you see, check it out" so you go through this process and you put the information in and then it obviously gives you an average top end and bottom end of what that job title is actually getting paid in your area, so it's providing more information to the employees so that they know if they're getting screwed or not and I don't think there's anything wrong with this, I don't care if you're in town acquisition and you want to try to keep that salary away from the public, it shouldn't be, it should be a part of the process, you should know that information before you apply for a job.
Joel: And by the way we know that providing salary data is going to be good for you and Google for jobs which we talked about earlier and that companies that are more transparent, more informative, give more data are gonna just perform better on Google so you might as well do it, get used to it, get comfortable because that's what the market wants and you are correct, James is no longer at Groupon, I'm not too late on it, he left in September but he's got a lot of stuff going on man.
Chad: Busy guy.
Joel: Proactive talent, professional speaker, board member of Talent Brand Alliance so yeah, good for you James, sorry I didn't know, I didn't get the memo hat you left Groupon, apparently I'm not on mailing list.
Chad: Yeah just follow him on Twitter @thewarfortalent he's got a podcast, it's all good, he's a fan, he's a Chad Cheese favorite.
Joel: You interviewed him a while back so if you wanna know more about James check out that episode.
Joel: So you're kind of mad at the muse in digi.me, talk about that or their new name, what is it? TS49 or something.
Chad: Okay so help me understand this, we'll get into all of the whole naming and what not but help me understand this, so if I got to the muse and I want them to create video content for me like job previews, company overviews you know like culture videos whatever well they create the content, they charge you for the content and that seems pretty standard right? But here's where it gets weird, they own the content, the employer doesn't own it so you know I've been kind of on some boards Facebook groups.
Chad: Oh you know, I've been kind of on some boards, Facebook groups and things and doing a little research back and forth. And it's interesting because I know that JSTN, which is what they used to be called, they're now called Digi-Me, used to have the same kind of practice where it was like, "Hey look, we'll create content for you, Mr. Customer, but guess what, you don't own it."
Chad: What the fuck is happening out there?
Joel: That's so like 2003 when you would get videos. Like before YouTube you would get videos created about whatever.
Joel: It could be culture, "Hey, we want to sell some stuff." And then the company that would provide the camera and the studio and the video and then they would edit the video and provide the final product. And then they would host the video. Then they would charge you like a monthly fee to host the video.
Joel: And then YouTube came along and was like, "Oh you can just put it on YouTube for free." And we've even seen this in our industry back in the day with a ... like Jobing did it, I want to say whoever did Monster's original videos I'm blanking on the ... who did that, but that was their kind of model, right?
Joel: It wasn't so much making it and the creation of the video, but it was like hosting was like huge money that they were getting just consecutively month after month. That's some old stuff, man. If you're using a provider like the MUSE and those guys and they're doing videos for you and charging you for like ownership and they're hosting it or they're kind of keeping it under lock and key, that's pretty messed up, man. And they're actually ... I know like Firefox's browser ... there are ways you can go and like grab a video so you don't have to like mess ... like you can grab it from, directly from the site and it's yours and you can have a file and do whatever you want with it. That wasn't necessarily available to do back in the day, but the video should be yours. I don't know if they're having something in the contract that says, "Hey, we own this video. We own this content." But that's some ... that's garbage.
Chad: Yeah. I think it's licensing, but companies are having to negotiate for ownership of their own content. Hearing about this just pissed me off right out of the gate. And that companies would kind say, "Oh yeah, well you know I had to negotiate for my video." It's like bullshit. That's your content. If you want to put it on YouTube, it you want to ... it doesn't matter where you want to put it. This is your brand. This is your message. This is your content.
Chad: So if you go into a conversation, "Oh, I have to negotiate for my content." Turn the fuck around and get outta there. There are many other video content providers who can do this without this crazy, stupid, 1990s early 2000s bullshit ransom.
Joel: Don't out think the room. Like I'm serious. Go to your local Craig's List site. Look at videographers. Talk to them. Super cheap, super professional. You don't have to fly them in. You don't have to like ship their equipment. Get a nice video produced. Have your marketing team you know produce the content, the script, storyboard it out. Like this is not rocket science. I know that it's easier to just hire you know an industry vendor, but don't think in terms of that. Think in terms of like, who's local, who's a videographer, who can do this professionally. And by god, I mean Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, like the platforms are out there to put these videos online and get exposure. Don't get a headache over the actual production and professionalism of the video.
Chad: That being said, I did an interview the same time, the same timeframe that I did with James Ellis with Elena Valentine over at Skill Scout and I believe Skill Scout, "The content's all yours." I don't think they play those games. So if you wanna go local, that's cool. If you wanna go with somebody's who's more professional, that's cool too. But I would say look for companies who aren't playing this bullshit, "You don't own the content." Game.
Joel: Yep. Totally agree. Totally agree. Well let's take a break here from Sovren and good god, we'll talk about Millennials and Gen Z and some Japanese extensions. I dig it.
Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market. Because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank and sort the best matches according to your criteria.
Sovren: Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them. And offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine.
Joel: Chad, are you ready for the Gen Z experts?
Chad: I am not.