Messaging Gold Rush Rages On

On this week's show,

- Messaging apps are HOT HOTT HOTTT and flush with cash

- Facebook is feeling US user ejection

- Costco, Target, Whole Foods, Amazon, & Walmart minimum wage crossfire

- WTF is the human cloud?

- Momazonians... WTF did you can her?

- Zip pushes past Indeed's Canadian cock block


- Money flows Wade & Wendy, Paradox, Instawork, HiBob & Gem (ZenSourcer).

Oh, and the investment cash register continues to ring. Enjoy, and support our sponsors: Sovren, Canvas and JobAdX.


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Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast.

Joel: Why the hell not? We're back, yo. It's The Chad and Cheese Podcast, aka, the red-headed stepchild of recruitment news. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheesman.

Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash.

Joel: On this week's show, messaging apps stay red hot and flush with cash. More minimum wage crossfire, and what the fuck is the human cloud.

Chad: No clue.

Joel: Learn it, live it, love it. And no shirt, no shoes, no dice. We'll be right back after this word from Sovren.

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Ed: This is Ed from Philly. You're listening to the Chat and Cheese Podcast.

Chad: Yes. Ed from Philly.

Joel: Ed, you're dead to me. But I like the sound bite.

Chad: Oh, why is he dead to you? That doesn't make any sense.

Joel: I crossed the fat guy line, with me. Yeah, shout outs.

Chad: Shout outs. Okay. First and foremost, David-

Joel: David who?

Chad: ... long story short. I can't tell, you got to try to keep this a little incognito, because he's actually ... He's a talent acquisition professional, He's a VP of talent acquisition or something like that. Anyway ... And you'll understand why. David was using CareerBuilder at his company and they were looking either switching to Monster or staying with CareerBuilder. And then he heard our interview with Scott Gutz of Monster, the CEO over at Monster [crosstalk 00:02:33]. While he was negotiating with both of the companies, David wanted to know the source of some of the stats at Scott was coming up with, so he asked his Monster rep and the next thing you know, David's getting a call from Scott.

Joel: The CEO called?

Chad: Yeah, the CEO of Monster called. Needless to say-

Joel: Did he go with Monster?

Chad: David went with Monster, yeah. [crosstalk 00:02:59] Not just for that reason, but that tipped the scale and he actually said another sale closed on Chad and Cheese Podcast. Keep up the good work. Thanks David.

Joel: Does he want to remain anonymous, because he doesn't want to be known as a career builder user? Is that ...?

Chad: I'm sure he doesn't want his fucking sales dude bringing him off and saying, "Oh, I heard that this shit happen." Or something like that. Not to mention it's a very prominent organization, so he probably doesn't want to throw that out there either.

Joel: If you haven't heard the Scott Gutz interview, I think it's our best work.

Chad: That's good.

Joel: Go search the archives. However, we've got some good shit coming up to be published yet. That's also pretty good stuff too. We're in our sweet spot, man.

It's good stuff. Good stuff.

Chad: It is.

Joel: But we do have haters-

Chad: Dude, what?

Joel: ... which gets me to my ... Yeah, believe it or not. My first shout out goes to millennial Daniel Kraciun. Daniel is the chief marketing guy at,-

Chad: At where?

Joel: ... the Juggernaut of a vertical job search engine. Anyway.

Chad: Where?

Joel: Daniel doesn't like our cursing. He thinks were bullies. Now, I don't really care what he thinks about us or the show, but he seemed to somewhat give the impression that, people sponsor the show, our company sponsor the show, because they're afraid of getting like harassed or bullied by us, which is total bullshit.

Chad: Fuck you.

Joel: Our sponsors love us. We don't threaten people like, "Pay us or we're going to talk shit about you." That I have issue with. Daniel, you're way off base and you better bring facts when you say shit like that.

Chad: Not only that. It's a free country. You don't have to fucking listen to anything you don't want to listen to asshole. That makes it very simple. Now, the reason why people do listen, is because we're, and this is what our listeners tell us, we're genuine, we're authentic, and we have opinions based in combined 40 years of experience in this fucking industry. So if you don't like it, dude, that's cool. Just don't listen. Go the fuck away. [crosstalk 00:05:10]

Joel: Or just buy and beers and do intros for the show.

Ed: This is Ed from Philly, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcasts.

Chad: Ed's a millennial, not to mention Kyle from hierology who always buys us beers at the show.

Joel: Thanks Keith. We appreciate that.

Chad: Jonathan Zoob, who was-

Joel: Great name.

Chad: ... at the TAtech AI summit. He said, Chad particularly, he was impressed with my ability to throw him a beer and not have it explode upon opening. Jonathan, I want you to know, it's taken years to actually perfect my technique. So yes, thank you sir.

Joel: Our fans are like Odell Beckham Jr. There in the stands, the newest Cleveland Brown. I had to work that in. I'm going to give a shout out to Willie Nelson for two things. He's got the coolest name ever. Works at Talroo, I'm not sure what he does there, but he had a comment. They were talking about, I guess, x new swag or new clothing that they could do. And I requested Daisy Dukes, probably Daisy Dukes and he refuted that really quickly and said, "No, Daisy Dukes on Cheesman." So-

Chad: Please.

Joel: ... You'll not see me rocking Daisy Dukes with Talroo logo, anytime soon. But I'm going to go listen to Willie Nelson's greatest hits after this.

Chad: Yes, no, Daisy Dukes on Cheesman. Period. Big shout out to Chris over at iCIMS. Quote from Chris, "I've assigned your podcast, the Chad and Cheese Podcasts, to all my new hires as mandatory listening. If they are coming from outside the industry. They love it.

Joel: I am straight. I know we have a moratorium on shoutouts that don't involve people or events.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: But I'm going to do a shout out to Tesla who launched their dog mode, which is basically leave your dog in the car and it will remain cool for the dog to stay alive and not die. I think that's just a pretty cool thing to do. One of those tech things, that make people go, "Yeah, I'm going to buy that." Because they have these little cool tech gadgets. Shout out to Tesla for giving our furry four legged friends, a little TLC.

Chad: Dog lovers unite. Shout-out ... Okay. This is to all of our employer brand faithful listeners. We love you guys, but we're shaking from shit up. We are shaking from shit up, got Douglas Atkin and Chris Neil and some other gathering podcasts, and we're trying to change the conversation and make sure that nobody gets comfortable in this space. We're thinking of being more innovative. Some of the opinions that are going to be coming out, might be different than what you're used to.

Joel: I think we need to have just sort of a smack down, throw down, punch up, with the employment brand folks, which, by the way, brings me into our TAtech employment Marketing, our recruitment marketing conference in Chicago. We're going to have some top notch brand folks on the stage and maybe we can hash out this whole employment brand, is it a thing or not topic, which you and I cover quite extensively.

Chad: It is a thing. There's a whole God damn industry and titles and shit. It's about more of a holistic conversation, I believe. And I think that is something that we could have on stage and we'll have some fun with. But as you're talking about events, are ... The next event that we're going to be at his SHRM Talent, a couple of engagements on the smart stage. It's funny they put us on the smart stage. Thanks to our-

Joel: [crosstalk 00:08:50] wouldn't come if it was the dumb ass meat head stage.

Chad: No, I think they would.

Joel: I know they probably would.

Chad: Thanks to our buddies, Jobcase for hooking us up on that one. Staffing Tec. We're going to be right across the city at Staffing Tec in Nashville as well. And while we are there, guess what kids we have the traveling with shaker backpacks. Which are going to be, they're going to be full of Chad and cheese first edition T-shirts provided by Can I hear it? Come on.

Joel: First edition.

Chad: They are putting women at a distance.

Joel: Like we're led Zeppelin albums one, three or four.

Chad: There's only going to be a hundred of these bad boys going out and then we'll do the next edition and what have you. But, they stepped up and they said, "We want to do something with you guys." And I wanted to do T-shirts and you said it couldn't be done and boom, it's done.

Joel: No, I just didn't want any part of it. So the shirts are all Chad ... Yeah, we've got more shirts, more ideas, the dude clearly has a closet that's empty because he wants more T-shirts.

Chad: I want our listeners to have our T-shirts.

Joel: They are nice shirts, I'll give you that. I'll throw in that I'll be at ERE in San Diego-

Chad: Nice.

Joel: ... in April next month, doing a thing on Google for jobs, SEO, if you will. So if you're out there for that, stop by and say hi. Come by and heckle me where you're ... Maybe I'll bring some Chad and Cheese tee shirts to ERE. Maybe that's appropriate.

Chad: I don't know. We'll talk about that one. Pods that are coming up, we've got Steven-

Joel: It's off brand Cheesman.

Chad: ... Steven Rothberg. He is going to be talking about some Google news that's going to drop on March 19th.

Joel: Mark your calendar.

Chad: March 19th. Google news. He's allowed to talk about this stuff. Dan Finnigan, probably going to drop next week, the CEO of Jobvite. Awesome stuff. Couple of gathering pods still out there. We just dropped another one today with Chris Kneeland, which is awesome. And we still have a secret Talroo lot of-

Joel: Super secret.

Chad: ... podcasts that are going to be dropping here. Who knows when? You're going to have to keep your eyes and ears open. Let's do this. Such an asshole.

Joel: All right, let's get into it. Facebook messaging remains hot, dude. Not only in our industry, but others. You're a big fan of Teams from Microsoft. That has come out of nowhere. Like Slack and Facebook and I ... You're really under Teams. What's up with that?

Chad: I just think it's incredibly smart for organizations like Microsoft and, as we see with Google and higher ... I mean they've, they have the Suite and then they start adding these different elements to Suite. In this case, Microsoft Teams now has more than 420,000 corporate customers and they've doubled adoption in six months. Slack has 8 million paid users and now Workplace, by Facebook has 2 million paid user. There's a lot of hotness that's happening here, but I'm hot ... I like Microsoft Teams just from the standpoint of it's part of your daily routine. Your Microsoft Suite, what you use ... Again, it's a lifestyle Suite of products that Microsoft has, where Slack isn't. It's out there by itself waiting for Google to acquire it.

Joel: Does Teams integrate with LinkedIn or do you think it will at some point?

Chad: That's a great question, because ... I don't know, I think it'd be really cool for recruiters to be able to utilize Teams within LinkedIn, possibly. Maybe they can do that now. If you're a recruiter out there and you're currently doing that with Microsoft Teams and Linkedin, let us know. But I think that would be incredibly cool for Talent Acquisition to be able to do those types of things within the Microsoft Suite, which LinkedIn is on the fringes integrated with.

Joel: InMail is so important to LinkedIn's DNA and revenue. I hear very little positive about InMail. In terms of replies and an engagement. It seems that a messaging integration at some point have to happen with LinkedIn, if it's going to keep up with everyone else that's integrating messaging tools and text messaging.

Chad: From my standpoint, you have to ask yourself why are these platforms growing? It goes back to email and old style messaging. I think number one, it's immediacy. You have all of these individuals connected into an instant messenger type of environment, where you're sharing documents and you're collaborating and so on and so forth. So, immediacy. Number two, the virtualness of work nowadays. And then number three, because we're fucking humans, immediacy. We have to have it now.

Joel: Did you just make up a word, virtualness?

Chad: Yeah, we do that around here.

Joel: Messaging is nuts. If you go to the App Store and look at the top 10 most popular apps, half of them are still messaging. It's still WeChat, it's still Facebook Messenger. Snapchat-

Chad: Whatsapp.

Joel: ... is still technically in my mind, messaging app. I mean messaging on Instagram. It's just such a huge part of what we do. Clearly the money trail that we see, all signs point to this is going to remain in the future, for the foreseeable future. And AI, I think wrapped into that and we're hearing ... In our interview at TAtech, and if you haven't heard the two part series on that, you should. We talk about this chatbot, it's had a dirty word. And I think all these platforms are moving beyond where chatbot to where we're, an entire platform for communication, et Cetera. And AI is obviously thrown out. But I saw a report this past week that they're saying that 15 trillion in revenue will be produced by 2030. So you're saying, all these solutions that ... It's just the tip of the iceberg.

Joel: This is like 1999 on the Internet, when you're looking at AI and all this stuff that's going on. But anyway, there's some some news out of the messaging app world from recruitment. It's obviously hot in general. Um, but Paradox, our friends over at Olivia, formerly jobbing, formerly recruiting, raise 13.34 million, this past week. Which is an odd number, to raise [crosstalk 00:15:26] 13.34. But anyway, in addition to that, there are also opening offices in Chicago and Dallas in addition to the office there in Phoenix. As well as a Wade and Wendy, for those of you who listen to the Shred, and if you're subscribed, you do get the Shred, raise 7.6 million. This is an in addition, of course, to Canvas and TextRecruit being acquired, the past year or two.

Chad: Definitely, you take a look at messaging in our space. It's different from the overarching Teams and slack and so on and so forth, but it's the same from the standpoint of immediacy for candidates, and you've got all these ... Again, talk about Canvas and Jobvite, being acquired by Jobvite, TextRecruit being acquired by iCIMS and then you have some other big players out there, Maya, Olivia, Wade & Wendy, Emissary and our buddies over there at Talkpush, they're more on the global scale, which is really cool. But dude, it's amazing, the amount of money that's being focused into the messaging space. From my standpoint, and I've said this before, I am really excited about the matching auto sourcing side of the house, but you're just not seeing the love as much as you are with messaging.

Joel: Yeah. What I'm hearing around messaging is, you're going to start seeing 100 million plus acquisition price tags on some of these folks. That's a prediction, but it's by someone that I respect. So don't be shocked to see those kinds of numbers coming down the pike. And it makes sense. Look, we know that 95% open rates are real. We know that. We know that 90% respond within 15 minutes of receipt. We know that conquering ghosting is a thing with messaging. That's real dollars and cents that companies are benefiting from by using these services. Now my question is, every job board has an ATS now. When is every job site going to have like a messaging component as part of its offering. Because I think that's coming as well.

Chad: Yeah. You have to take a look at some of those. I think Indeed would be the first one that would want to look at something like that to make it easier to have those communications. So if you're out there Indeed, yeah, it's probably a good idea, if you haven't yet. I don't know, why don't you give us a call? We'll talk about it.

Joel: Or give us a call anyway.

Chad: The monster ecosystems of 10 years ago or 15 years ago were much different than they are today. I don't see them as big of players, so I don't know. I think integrations is really where it's at. They're not going to look at acquiring CareerBuilder or Monster not acquiring these types of platforms, but going through integrations to make it easier within the applicant tracking system. I don't see any of that happening. It's all around partnership right now. Because they don't have the cash to do it.

Joel: To me it seems like a no brainer. Instead of CareerBuilder creating augmented reality where you point your camera, your phone at the street, and you see jobs. Why don't they integrate a messaging app? Where you could look at candidates on CareerBuilder, and if they download the app, online, you get a green light, and then you can message them directly through the CareerBuilder app. To me that seems like a much better use of your tech talent than doing some augmented reality bullshit.

Chad: I think the platforms that we're doing really well on are the working not working platform. We talked to Justin Gignac, who is the founder of Working Not Working. It's a freelancer type of platform, but it is incredibly niche and it's only for the design and creative types, for agencies to be able to reach out to them very quickly. I think that is perfect. The perfect opportunity to be able to do those types of integrations. I just don't know that the general job boards per say right now, they have so much technical debt and to be able to, to start to integrate something like this, I just don't see it happening. Again, they're focusing on virtual reality or augmented reality and putting videos on job postings.

Joel: But you agree it would be smart, maybe, to do that. If I have the Monster app and I'm getting messages from recruiters and I'm messaging them through the Monster app, that seems smart to me.

Chad: It's hard. It's really hard for me to see that.

Joel: Are you surprised and impressed that Facebook at work has 2 million paid user or paying users.

Chad: I'm very surprised. Again, to see Microsoft turned flipped the switch. To see Facebook flipped the switch. This to me definitely demonstrates that the Canvas and TextRecruit, what we're seeing right now, especially in our industry, it is just starting to heat up. Because the applicant tracking systems or the CRMs or the RMPs or the ecosystems that don't have these types of platforms. They need to have them now.

Joel: 15 trillion by 2030. Get on the AI bus. All is not rosy for Facebook, however, my friend.

Chad: No, it's not.

Joel: follically challenged friend.

Chad: They're sleeping.

Joel: News out of this week, they're losing members at a pretty rapid pace. They have 15 million fewer over 2017. You had a great chart, which we can't show on a podcast, but it shows ... I think it shows from 2015ish maybe, the decline and growth of Facebook. The good news for them is Instagram continues to grow at a pretty healthy pace. Snapchat is growing fairly slowly, I think over that period and Twitter is like just dead. I mean it's just not moving at all. But if you are Facebook, what do you do? You had a friend that quit because there's no joy in Facebook. Which I tend to agree. I go to Facebook because I get alerts saying I was tagged in a photo or family, keeping up with family, but I'm usually tagged in photos or mentioned, photos of kids. But the new story sharing and stuff, it's getting tired, I guess</