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iCIMS Takes No Prisoners

It's the podcast where the hosts are always socially distant, or at least mentally distant.

This week on The Chad & Cheese Podcast,

- iCIMS is taking no prisoners, making another acquisition,

- OutMatch says, "Two can play that game."

- Earnings out from Indeed and Glassdoor parent company Recruit Holdings, and...

- Google faces the music in Europe as job board owned take aim with accusations of antitrust.

Want more?

The boys also chat about Canadian robots, Northwest Arkansas and mountain bikes. Hold on to your poutine and grab a cold one on this Happy Hour edition of HR's most dangerous podcast, always sponsored by Sovren, JobAdx and Jobvite.


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (20s):

Poor me another beer baby. This podcast will never be locked down, but it's much better when the hosts are socially distanced.

Chad (30s):


Joel (31s):

Hey boys and girls, this is a happy hour edition of the Chad and Cheese podcast, or at least that's what we're calling ourselves after the recount. I'm your cohost Joel "Release the cracken" Cheesman

Chad (43s):

And I am Chad "Mind Hayes" Sowash.

Joel (47s):

And then on this week show iCIMS marks another one off, off of its shopping list, European job boards and Canadian robots, and forget Portugal we're moving to ArKansas and becoming little rock stars. Get it Little Rock, okay. Time to pay some bills. We'll be back.

Jobvite (1m 5s):

Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at

Chad (1m 35s):

So Joel, the why the after hours recording?

Joel (1m 38s):

Oh, sleep deprived and halfway to drunk, which is why the opening sucks so bad. So my three-year-old had a tonsillectomy yesterday, which was fun. So had to take care of him, had to restock the ice cream, you know, cuddles and cartoons. And so we're opting for the happy hour edition of the show, which I'm not hating on, cause we get to drink beer and talk shop, which is yeah.

Chad (2m 6s):

So with that being said, what are you guys looking to do for Thanksgiving? Because we're all supposed to be responsible, respectful, all that other fun stuff. What are you guys looking to do for Turkey day?

Joel (2m 18s):

Yeah. It's just the family. I'm lobbying for beef Wellington. We'll see. We'll see if I win that one or not. It's probably going to be Turkey breasts and stuffing, but you know, a boy can dream. Beef Wellingtons are my favorite.

Chad (2m 35s):

Well, I got to say a big SHOUT OUT to Julie and her team, they did a Thanksgiving alternative for her whole team that works together. It was a friend, it was a Friendsgiving and what they did was pretty awesome. So Julie's obviously the boss. So what she did was she bought food for everybody. It was all sent out to everyone. We all got on a Microsoft Team meeting. We cooked it together. Everybody was in their kitchens. After that, we played it. It showed it the beautiful plates. And then we all sat in our dining rooms and we ate together, we talked and we had a Thanksgiving, but just virtual.

Chad (3m 21s):

It was really fucking cool. I got to give a big applause to her and her team for actually coming up with something like that. Socially distant, smart, but yet to getether.

Joel (3m 33s):

So you had a Thankszooming, essentially. You need to trademark that, buy the domain, something, very nice. Well, let's get to SHOUT OUT. Shall we?

Chad (3m 42s):

Yes. Come on, man.

Joel (3m 44s):

I'll start with Craig Fisher, friend of the show, Craig Fisher our final event in person of 2019. Greg Fisher is now CEO of KNACK. That's K N A C I don't think it's Nackio, although I have a knack for adding the IO on the end. See what I did there. It's an engineering kind of job board thing is the best I can explain it. I'm sure. We'll see Craig at some point and get the dealio, but that's kind of a big deal, CEO.

Chad (4m 11s):

Kind of a big deal, start up. Yeah!

Joel (4m 12s):

Yeah. It's an also Shally Steckerl. I'll throw in a couple of old friends of the show.

Chad (4m 17s):

Dude where's he been? Jesus.

Joel (4m 19s):

So yeah, I know, right? He's a full-time employee at Newton talent RPO solution and they've joined forces to create power has taken his educational chops over to Newton to educate the folks out there that want sourcing information. But two friends of the show that have landed in alternate universes and SHOUT OUTs to both of those boys.

Chad (4m 44s):

Well Shally, hopefully after that long nap, you're ready for a new adventure. My friend, SHOUT OUT to Mike.

Joel (4m 52s):

That's not nice. Shally napping. Why is everyone napping for you? Are you like never sleeping?

Chad (5m 3s):

I never sleep Cheeseman.

Joel (5m 4s):

Oh, I know.

Chad (5m 6s):

SHOUT OUT to Mike Weston for creating the Dr. Evil mini Me Hard Knock Life video using Ethan Bloomfield's face on both Dr. Evil and mini me Mike Whiston has nothing better to do, but I'm telling you right now, it was so fucking hilarious. I've already watched it like a dozen times.

Joel (5m 24s):

Do that face replace app or whatever it's called. That thing has got to go. Joe Lockwood did one. It's just like, come on man. It's yeah, I got nothing. But whoever invented that is evil. Evil, evil, evil.

Chad (5m 38s):

Evil genius.

Joel (5m 40s):

Okay. SHOUT OUT to Pfizer and Moderna, I don't know if you've heard this, but they're a, they're saving the world.

Chad (5m 46s):

Give me the shot!

Joel (5m 46s):

... with capitalism. 95% effective, coming to an arm near you, soon. 2021 if we're lucky vaccine time, baby, let's get this gets to get the show back on the road.

Chad (5m 59s):

Give me the shot motherfuckers. Again, another SHOUT OUT to Nick Livingston, the CEO of hone it. He gets a double SHOUT OUT for those crazy addictive Bourbon balls. So Julie doesn't it even like bourbon and she had two, I had to hide them. Come on, man. If anybody's out there, they're looking for holiday gift ideas. We're not getting commission guys or referral bonuses or anything like that. This is just a core

Joel (6m 25s):

Or begging for more balls.

Chad (6m 27s):

We'd like chocolate salty balls. What we're looking for, go to They are amazing. Amazing. Thanks Nick.

Joel (6m 42s):

Thanks Nick. That was good. Yeah. My wife has a chocolate hound in, but she hates bourbon. So it's the about the only chocolate treat that I've had in a while. And you know, my midsection needs more chocolate shout out to Jobboard Doctor cause I'm just sick of Steven Rothberg SHOUT OUs. He had a nice article called Tale of Two Job Boards this week where he, I don't know, he took a Dice and Upwork's recent earnings calls and talked about how one really sucks ass.

Chad (7m 9s):


Joel (7m 10s):

And Art Zeal we're still waiting for you to come on the show and Upwork gig economy, rock and rockin' the shit out of a its stock price and value. So Tale of Two Job Boards, if you haven't checked it out, go, go read that and learn something, kids.

Chad (7m 23s):

Remember when Art was at a TA tech and we like stood up and said, Hey, dude, we want to interview you. And he ran. I mean, he, it was almost like he literally, okay, so maybe it was like a, it was a power walk. Let's just say that. Didn't see the guy again.

Joel (7m 37s):

Art! More like Dart, you know what I'm saying?

Chad (7m 40s):

SHOUT OUT to Germany. So Germans put off COVID criminals Joel, and it's hilarious! Germany calls on it's young to be the COVID heroes of 2020, by staying on their sofa. This is an awesome and a smart commercial. It has this old man, and they're actually looking back to 2020 when he was 22 in college and what he did for the country, which was nothing sitting on his couch, eating pizza. It is hilarious video, but it, it is something that we need to really focus on. Yes, it is a bit staying inside, but guess what?

Chad (8m 21s):

I want to travel. We just canceled a goddamn trip to Santa Fe and in Portland. But guess what guys I'm staying home because that's the responsible and respectful thing to do. And Germany knows it.

Joel (8m 34s):

Yeah. And I was watching the news. I know that's surprising for me, but apparently Germany is getting its American on by having protests and throwing rocks because of the, the most recent lockdown. So, you know, what are you going to do? Germany. Get your shit together. SHOUT OUT to two 800 pound gorillas with some revolutionary technology. You're going to love this. We forgot to make fun of LinkedIn's new profile frames. I don't know if you've seen this, but if you're open to work, you can flip the switch and haveyour profile pic framed with a nice green "ready to work" or "open to work" icon. And if you're an employer, you can flip the switch and have your profile pic framed with "we're looking for employees."

Joel (9m 19s):

So another revolutionary, revolutionary technology from LinkedIn and also Twitter has launched Stories or they're calling them fleets. I believe Twitter fleets. So, these tweets that disappear after a while. So Twitter and LinkedIn keep on rockin' baby, the tech is awesome.

Chad (9m 42s):

Then also intro, their video intro. This feature will give people a leg up in the process, apparently because they get to video themselves. The thing is, I mean, we already have enough bias in the world. The last thing we need to do is impart more, more reasons for somebody not to talk to you right? Now I appreciate video in the interview process. We've got to get a better handle on how we use these different mediums.

Joel (10m 14s):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just cause your phone has a camera it doesn't mean we have to go nuts with it people.

Chad (10m 19s):


Joel (10m 20s):

I'm going to go, I'm going to go free. Let's start the free ride. So if, if you're like free beer and who doesn't make sure you sign up for beerdrop, we've partnered with AdZooma to give free beer. And I'm not talking about a six pack of PBR people. I'm talking about a case plus of good craft beer.

Chad (10m 38s):

Yeah. Craft beer from around the globe.

Joel (10m 41s):

Good stuff. Go to Give us your address. We promise not to stalk you, only send you the gold liquid called beer, by Adzoona check it out folks. Oh man.

Chad (10m 55s):

Not to mention, we're going to go ahead and continue the alcohol trip that we're on. Why not? You can go to That's right. Free Pappy P A P P Y. And that Pappy stands for Pappy Van Winkle kids. We're talking about a bottle of bourbon you can't even find. It's mythical. It's like a goddamn dragon. You can't find the shit, but guess what? Chad and Cheese did. They're $2,200 per bottle. We have two bottles to give away. We also have third prize. Get this not steak knives. No we're talking about Red Label Blanton's Bourbon.

Joel (11m 39s):

Oh shit.

Chad (11m 42s):

It's crazy. $500!

Joel (11m 44s):

It's a win-win-win situation.

Chad (11m 46s):


Joel (11m 46s):

It's only possible because of our buddy at Sovren. Love those guys. We said, Hey, give away a bottle. They said, fuck that we're giving away three bottles. How about that? Pappy Van Winkle's Family Reserve. Even if you don't drink bourbon, just invest this shit. Put it away in a lock box and take it out in 10 years and pay for your kid's college. That's what I'm talking about.

Chad (12m 8s):

Drink the goddamn bourbon.

Joel (12m 10s):

Or drink it. Share with us.

Chad (12m 12s):

And last but not least always, you can always go to to get yourself into all of these free registrations. Not to mention, I've got to say, let me take a deep breath.

Joel (12m 27s):


Chad (12m 28s):

New Chad and Cheese website design and built by Shaker Recruitment marketing: Mindy, Keegan, Jeremy, Bob, Tom and obviously the big man, Joe Shaker for allowing his people to work with a couple of knuckleheads with a vision. We really appreciate it. We have done at total redesign of the website, Netflix style, and we're really excited for people to interact.

Joel (12m 55s):

And I'm, I'm pretty sure it still has the free page, right Chad? so if you want like a free Tee, free alcohol, free swag or given all kinds of stuff where it's the holiday season and we are giving, giving podcast or so head out to Look at the redesign, give us some feedback. I just sent out five or six t-shirts today. So that's what I'm talking about. It's a Joel Santa Claus over here and in central Indiana.

Chad (13m 22s):

Nice. Right up in the upper NAF where it says free. Yeah, just click it. There you go. Yep.

Joel (13m 27s):

And, and, and if you don't have us in your pocket, people real quickly text CC to (833) 799-0321 sponsored by Emissary. Our buddies are letting us send news alerts directly to you, which we got a lot on the show today. But if you don't want to wait until Friday to hear this stuff, get it on your phone. Text CC to (833) 799-0321.

Chad (13m 57s):

One that's right people because you've been so good to us. We're giving away T-shirts! We're giving away beer! We're giving away Pappy's and Blanton's and free texting shit! Guys. We love you. Thanks for listening! TOPICS!

Bell (14m 14s):

Ding, ding, ding!

Joel (14m 16s):

ICIMS bringing the pain.

Chad (14m 18s):

Good God.

Joel (14m 18s):

Did you, did you attend their event last week?

Chad (14m 21s):

I did! I did.

Joel (14m 21s):

While, I was dealing with tonsils, so I didn't, I wasn't able to.

Chad (14m 24s):

Yeah, no, I, I did. It was, it was very smooth. I was very impressed with the production itself. They had Richard Sherman do like a commercial for them. I'm like, what the fuck? Richard Sherman. So they had ...

Joel (14m 38s):

He plays football, Adam Gordon. He plays American football.

Chad (14m 42s):

Trevor, Mindy. I mean, they had all these big names and it was very fluid with the content, not to mention they music, Lloyd, I can't remember his name, great music. I remember making lunch while he was playing his guitar. But anyway, it was a great experience.

Joel (15m 0s):

I'm sorry. Hold on. Making lunch while playing guitar.

Chad (15m 4s):

I was making lunch. Oh, they were on a break and they were playing. He was playing right. And I'm like, Oh man, this is great for lunch. So I just took him with me with my computer, went to the kitchen, made lunch while I'm sitting there listening to this amazing music.

Joel (15m 20s):

Yeah, Okay.

Chad (15m 21s):

This is about an experience and trying to pull things together and I think they did a really good job.

Joel (15m 27s):

Cool, cool. I'm sorry. I wasn't able to, to attend, but I'm sure it was awesome there. I didn't hear virtual bartender in your, in your description, but you know, that's always nice too, but they, they dropped some mad news during this week. The number one news story was their acquisition of Easy Recrue.

Chad (15m 46s):


Joel (15m 47s):

If you don't know them, they're the European leader in video interviewing and digital assessment capabilities. We just talked about Smart Recruiters, making a big chat bot acquisition while hold my beer says iCIMS. Now they have a native chat bot too, as well as an interview scheduler, the AI-driven video interviewing language assessments and career management solutions. They allow customers to optimize and digitize their hiring internal mobility and employee career development. It's like, I'm almost reading a press release. I'm so knowledgeable about this stuff. Your thoughts?

Chad (16m 22s):

So the biggest sell here is video interviewing because Easy Recrue, which the name itself I've always hated, but again, the name has nothing to do with them getting acquired. But the biggest sell here is the video interviewing slash recruitment module I believe, because remote work isn't going away, it's just going to grow. So that just made that made a lot of sense, a very smart and bold European and beyond expansion because they have offices in Paris, Milan, Madrid, Warsaw, in Dubai. They're approaching 500 clients, which probably most of them aren't iCIMS clients so that's, that's always another, another good step.

Chad (17m 5s):

Nearly a hundred and staff, a very, from my understanding and from what I'm hearing from sources, a very savvy sales organization. But I think once again, the very big key here is the interviewing piece, but also to see an American company not trying to slam their model or their tech into foreign countries, very smart to find out ways of purely pretty much finding out which companies are killing it in innovating in different countries, acquiring them instead of forcing their model. And we talked about this last week, that was one of the issues that monster had.

Chad (17m 49s):

They had American model, they tried to slam it in every single different foreign location. And it didn't work. This is finding out what works and acquiring instead of just trying to be that hammer when you need a screwdriver.

Joel (18m 4s):

Yeah. Big ups to iCIMS. I mean, they've gotten out of their Jersey comfort zone, if you will. And really, really, really grown up into a global footprint, this actually triple sort of the size of the organization, you know, a few notable acquisitions recently Text Recruit, which goes back a few years. Opening we applauded extensively our buddy Andrea, former death match winner. They really turned it up. And they've also announced today. We, we don't win. We didn't get time to sort of dig into it, but Vizier, a people analytics tool they've announced a partnership with them as well. So this, this to me goes just full on with the whole a one platform to rule them all.

Joel (18m 46s):

And these guys Smart Recruiters, iCIMS Jobvite, et cetera, are just buying up companies left and right. Shopping spree, they want to be the one solution for everybody. And thanks to the pandemic, it looks like a lot of people are open to selling and the prices are right. So this shows no signs of slowing down. The acquisitions are a happening folks.

Chad (19m 7s):

And I like to say we dropped Susan Vitale's podcast today, the interview that we had with her, had a great interview! And she actually said that we didn't give Mike Wilczak the guy who's in charge of M and A enough props. So I wanted to say, good job, great job, Mike Wilczak. This is all you, I'm sure. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. I know that the iCIMS team is, they're working on this and Mike definitely a leader in that space.

Joel (19m 35s):

Yeah. And by the way, Jobvites annual event is in December. So look out for some out announcements in early December from them.

Chad (19m 43s):

Yeah, those guys, those guys, K one roll up. I mean, it's just, there's so many cool things happening in this industry right now. I can barely, I can barely restrain myself, other than just drink my beer.

Joel (19m 56s):

Have a bourbon ball and relax my friend. Let's get to the next big acquisition this week. Out Match and Checkster. Any thoughts on that one? Or what's going on with that?

Chad (20m 7s):

Yeah. Rubicon, private equity firm acquired Outmatch in March. Then they acquired Launchpad in September. Now an automatic or automated reference checking platform, Checkster. I think from my standpoint, this is pretty clear. PE is trying to ball something up that they can package and sell. An end, more of like a quote unquote "end-to-end" solution on the site. It says recruitment simplified through automation and AI transform your recruitment experience without changing your applicant tracking system. The question is will an applicant tracking system buy into something like this to be able to catch up to maybe an iCIMS?

Chad (20m 51s):

Maybe? I don't know, but this is to me, makes for all the packaging for an acquisition in PE you know what they're looking for?

Joel (21m 1s):

Yeah. I mean, this was a, so they poured $8 million into this thing in 2015, just, just balls of steel. They've been buying up companies. You mentioned Launchpad, Checkster. Another one that happened in October was Furst Person Testing Company, which

Chad (21m 19s):

F U R S T, Furst, Jeff Furst,

Joel (21m 24s):

Who I knew back in the mid aughts as well as, as well as Eve at Checkster. I remember sitting down with Eve to talk about Checkster before he launched it. And it was kind of a joke because it was a play on either Jobstr or Friendster. I don't know which, but, but good for him. It's been a long time coming that, that came out. But yeah, this is like, we're gonna, we're going to swing for the fences. Outmatch CEO, Greg Moran, who balls of steel on this organization said quote, integrating Checksters technology into our talent decision platform. That's a mouthful will eliminate log jams and the recruiting process that frustrate both recruiters and candidates while infusing more data for recruiters to identify the best talent.

Joel (22m 7s):

So Outmatch is one to watch. They got some big ambitions. They're making, making a lot of moves. We'll keep our eye out on them and report on what they're doing. But yeah, they're either. Yeah. They gotta be building themselves up for a nice little acquisition or shit who knows? IPO down the road. Who knows?

Chad (22m 25s):

No, no, no, this is, this is a big, pretty bow. And it's like, come at me motherfuckers. Yes.

Joel (22m 35s):

Yeah. I guess 8 million. Isn't going to prime it for an IPO, but it's a great domain.

Chad (22m 40s):

So there there's another great domain that is attached to some, some big numbers, I guess this last week.

Joel (22m 48s):

Sure. So Recruit Holdings, Japanese company, a quartered that owns Indeed and Glassdoor, which we talk about a little bit on the show, just a little bit. So they reported earnings. They are a public company out in Japan anyway. So Recruit Holdings saw a quarterly revenue fall 6.2% a year on year, which is quite a bit of money for a company that size. While the company managed to bring operating expenses down, falling revenue caused operating income to plummet 32.7%. Ouch! Revenue and recruits quote-unquote "HR technology segment," they own a lot of companies, but this segment includes Indeed and Glassdoor fell half of half that to 3.1%.

Joel (23m 30s):

The revenue decline in the HR technology business, which again includes Indeed and Glassdoor was primarily caused, said the company by decreased demand for sponsored job advertising, no shit, candidate sourcing and screening solutions, as well as employer branding products. So little drop in demand leading to a 3.1% decline. Your thoughts.

Chad (23m 52s):

Yeah. This is momentary.

Joel (23m 53s):

A bump in the road. If you will,

Chad (23m 55s):

This is a bump. This is definitely a bump. But, but I have to say that a lot of what Indeed, a lot of the spaghetti the Indeed's been throwing on the wall, has been total shit. Yeah. You know it, and I appreciate the R and D guys I really do. And I always talk really harshly about Indeed, but I've got to say that I appreciate the R and D, but what I would like to say much, like what you're doing with flex, right, is that you are forgetting who you are. That's the problem with Indeed right now. They they've forgotten who they are. They forgotten the soul of the Trojan horse and who they should be. And I think that's their problem.

Chad (24m 36s):

Not to mention, I wonder how much money they could save if they actually sold those Austin offices that they're just newly built and allowed people to go allowed people to go, you know, remote.

Joel (24m 50s):

Torchy's and work at Torchy's.

Chad (24m 52s):

That's exactly right. Yeah. Unfortunately they, they, they are a very, a very iron fist type of a sales organization. So most people should be used to the lash by now. Oh,

Joel (25m 6s):

I'm ready for a quick break. And I'm going to open up another cold one. Let's say for JobadX, and we'll talk about something that Indeed's really excited about Google antitrust.

JobAdX (25m 16s):

Your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit?

JobAdX (25m 57s):

JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at that's

Chad (26m 33s):

I think I smell acquisition there.

Joel (26m 38s):

Do you? Are you hearing, hearing some buzz around that too? Yeah, well, we'll see. We'll be the first to report it. Hopefully. Anyway, poor, poor Google, Chad, you know,

Chad (26m 50s):

Man, I feel so bad for them.

Joel (26m 52s):

More, more complaints and the, this bunch of socialists bastards. So spend the news this week, a group of 135 internet companies, including Job Boards, although we're not quite sure how many as well as 30 industry groups sent a letter to the EU commissioner for competition, raising concerns about Google and what they say are anti-competitive practices harming their business. This is a quote from the story, or actually from the letter that they sent quote, "while we compete amongst ourselves for the best consumer experience, there is one common competitor that does not compete fairly, Google. We all face strong competition from Google and our respective search services and markets.

Joel (27m 36s):

Google has entered each of these markets by leveraging its unassailable dominance in general internet search to gain a competitive headstart to quickly gain market shares."

Chad (27m 48s):

Come on, man.

Joel (27m 49s):

Quit ganging up on Google.

Chad (27m 51s):

They're comparing Google shopping with this move and from the outside, the comparison makes sense, but digging in Google shopping was fined in the EU for strong arming advertiser advertising partners with exclusivity and in blocking their competitor. So this isn't, this doesn't seem like the same thing at all. So if you're looking from the outside in you're like, Oh yeah, no, that makes sense. You dig in. You're like, no, this isn't the same thing. So who's being blocked out? I checked Google for jobs in the UK. I'd actually did a search in the UK and my search deliver jobs from Reed, total jobs, job today, and a long list of other jobs.

Chad (28m 34s):

So I don't understand what the end game here is. And I, and I really think we should bring somebody on the show. Who's a part of that list of, of companies who, who sent this letter, because I don't understand what the end game is. If you killed Google for jobs, you allow Indeed to continue to own the organic, right?

Joel (28m 53s):

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think a lot of this stems from Yelp and what Google has done to Yelp. Google by all accounts is more of an ad engine than it is a search engine, these days. And there's this thing called no click search, which is a real big thing with SEO is which basically says many Google searches. Now give you the answer within Google. So you don't even have to go to that, you know, a food network site to see what a recipe is for lasagna, which I love a good lasagna.

Chad (29m 24s):

You have to apply. That's the thing you can't apply on Google. Yeah.

Joel (29m 29s):

I mean, so that's, so that's what it is today, but what is it in the future? And I think, I think some of these companies are, are really nervous about what Google for jobs or whatever search it is in terms of the classifieds, areas, of what Google is going to be? And if it's going to be something similar to the Yelp killer that it's been at least in the US, then that is obviously going to scare some folks in the employment side. There's also this whole thing of Europe that is much friendlier to complaints like this versus the United States. So I think in part, this is like jobs just sort of jumping into the fray and signing this complaint, which is probably more relevant to other businesses because you know, why not?

Joel (30m 12s):

What's the worst that could happen. So I think ultimately Google will pay a fine, they'll put the shit in courts around Europe and not much is going to happen to it, but there's a real issue with Google, not being a search engine, like having all the answers themselves. And that's largely driven by, they're better at mobile. A lot of sites suck at mobile, the experience is a little bit better. You look at voice search. So it was asking Google, you know, what's the capital of Istanbul.

Chad (30m 36s):

You don't have a crystal ball to be able to say what they're going to do in your future. So your evidence that you have right now, okay, let's, we're not talking futurescape, we're talking about right now. What they have right now is a search within a search. And if you just go back directly, specifically to the organic, then you're pretty much giving way to Indeed. Now here in the US, some job sites have actually seen a rise in traffic from Google, for jobs after the implementation. So I mean, the question is which devil do you give into? Do you trust Indeed, fuck No, I don't trust Indeed. Do you trust Google?

Chad (31m 17s):

Well I trust Google? As long as I have evidence to trust them, because if they do make the shopping leap, then I can take them to court. But right now you don't have the evidence.

Joel (31m 28s):

Sure. And that doesn't stop Donald Trump from suing everybody to try to win this election. When everyone knows the election's over. Ultimately what everyone is scared of in the classifieds category. And in regards to jobs, is that look the best place to look for a job and apply for a job and get information about a job is a company's website. And for years, those company websites have not been on Google's radar whatsoever, which is so these job boards have been able to gain the system in terms of SEO, drive the traffic to them, or pay for Google traffic, which they haven't before. So now they look at this. Now they look at this vertical search that, that Google actually says, Oh, here's the company website to apply to this job.

Joel (32m 11s):

And that fucks everybody from a financial situation. So if you're, if you're following the money, these folks are scared to death that all these job seekers are going to bypass their job board and apply directly to the company, which let's be honest, that's the best experience for the job seeker. But as a business owner, it scares you to death. And when you're scared, what do you do? You call the lawyers and try to get things, you know, resolve that way. Will it work? Probably not. Will it stall it, keep them a business for a little bit longer, probably. But yeah. Ultimately like the market is going to work out even in Europe and Google will probably still be able to have Google for jobs and they'll drive more and more traffic directly to company websites, which are good for companies because now they can save more money and job boards will, will slowly die.

Chad (32m 60s):

Yeah. I Have to say that employment employment websites are becoming better, but they're still shit for the most part, not all, but for the most part, going to these different job boards or these different job sites are actually better experiences. Yeah. They'll have to evolve. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, just from my standpoint, I don't totally understand, which is one of the reasons why I want to get some of the, one of these organizations, the CEO from one of these organizations on, because overall it's like, if you beat this and they take it off the search page, which is really what you're asking them to do, then you've lost the organic to Indeed. Or you're hoping that they come up with some kind of Panda updates that kills Indeed.

Joel (33m 47s):

Panda update. Listen to you, listen to you. Let's talk robots in Canada. So there was, there's an article out of Canada of all places. So that's this organization called Statistics Canada says domestic firms that invested in robots since the late nineties, oh, I miss the nineties, have also expanded their human workforces. The findings released this past Monday show that over two decades firms that automated some tasks had workforces 15% larger relative to other companies in the same industry, quote from the story. "The results of this study suggests that the impact of robot adoption on employment has not been apocalyptic for labour overall."

Joel (34m 31s):

And that's labour with the u, Chad, also quote "the changes in the structure of the workforce, more software and engineering people, fewer trades people and fewer managers on the factory floor. The study found that quality, not quantity was the driving force to bring robots there." Okay. My take on this is great, but methodical change since the nineties is about to go steroids with the AI of today,

Chad (34m 59s):


Joel (34m 59s):

... You can compare now late nineties to, I don't know, 2015 or so to like what we're about to see with AI and the rapid changes we're about to see. Your thoughts.

Chad (35m 11s):

It's really interesting because it seems like, and it's Canada, right? So they're trying to compare Luddites with Moore's law. In Canada, I love Canada. It's a beautiful place, especially BANFF, but I love Canada, but they are like the 10th largest nation GDPwise, I think. We have three States in the United States that are, are big as, or bigger than Canada. So I think.

Joel (35m 39s):

They're tiny.

Chad (35m 40s):

So they're tiny number one. Number two, they're also not a good representation of capitalism because they are, they love their people. Unlike America. They want to ensure that those individuals more social socialism ish, they want to make sure that those individuals are taken care of. So there's a whole focus in culture in Canada that we don't have in the US so to be able to use this study, I think is not applicable to the United States, the number one economy in the world at all.

Joel (36m 16s):

Number one, people. Suck it China.

Chad (36m 19s):

I wish we actually did business like Canada to an extent to ensure that we took care of our people, but we don't. So to be able to try to compare to Canada is, is not realistic.

Joel (36m 34s):

Oh, Canada. I need a Molson right about now let's take a break.

Chad (36m 39s):

Robot's are coming kids, just as long as I have a beer, I'll be okay. And a beach.

Joel (36m 44s):

Isn't hockey season coming around soon? So we'll be,

Sovren (36m 47s):

You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal" like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner.

Joel (37m 46s):

There's a Canadian beer called La Fin Du Monde.

Chad (37m 50s):

I have not Jo-el.

Joel (37m 52s):

It's very nice. It's very nice. You can get it at your, your local Whole Foods, I think, from Canada to Arkansas.

Chad (38m 0s):

Arkansas, get it right, dude.

Joel (38m 3s):


Chad (38m 3s):

Just a little little notes about Chad Sowash here. I spent two and a half years in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. That's only because only because Uncle Sam made me do it.

Joel (38m 18s):

Northwest. So specifically, Northwest Arkansas, were you in Northwest Arkansas?

Chad (38m 22s):

It was not Northwest Arkansas. Did visit Northwest Arkansas. Pine Bluff is about an hour south of Little Rock.

Joel (38m 30s):

Have you been to Bentonville?

Chad (38m 32s):

Oh yeah.

Joel (38m 33s):

Walmart is it nice? I've never been, it's got a nice airport apparently.

Chad (38m 36s):

Well it was, it was in the early nineties, my friend. Anyway, Forbes, Northwest Arkansas has just announced that it will pay new residents, $10,000 to move to an area that is known as one of the best places in best places to live in America, thanks to its low cost of living, outdoor activities, world-class arts institutions and a per capita income that's 14% higher than the national average. It's a similar program created by a village in Italy, which I mean, come on, how do you compare that?

Chad (39m 17s):

City of Tulsa, Oklahoma, and the state of Vermont, which, has grabbed headlines here lately. This to me is a hell of a brain share grab. A market share grab. And also this is good for a tax base.

Joel (39m 37s):

Sure. And did you mention that you get a free mountain bike with this move to Arkansas? So yeah, this includes a street, a street or a mountain bike. It's important to segment those two so that new residents can explore the area's 162 miles of paved trails and 3.2 miles of mountain biking trails, not to mention the Ozark mountains, by the way, that's a great Netflix show.

Chad (40m 2s):


Joel (40m 2s):

Not into biking. You can choose an annual membership to one of the local cultural institutions like the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art, which was started by Wal-Mart heiress, Alice Walton, America's richest art collector.

Chad (40m 16s):

Yeah. This is awesome because we're looking at a more distributed workforce, right? So you can do these things. You can move wherever the fuck you want. So these aren't only US programs, many countries other than Italy, are making it easier for Americans to find a new home and work remotely. So I think, I think the distributed workforce in itself is going to allow us human beings to enjoy this one life we have a little bit easier.

Joel (40m 47s):

Look, I think it's great. You know, my father used to say strike while the iron is hot and in a world where everyone works from home, all these companies are saying, Hey, you know, we're not coming back until 2024 the opportunity to live wherever the hell you want is open to everybody. And all these folks that are paying mortgages in Chicago and New York and Boston are saying, you know what, what's the rest of the world got? And when you can roll out 10K and a free mountain bike, goddammit, to some young professional in Philadelphia, who's sick of pan, you know, excessive rents, go to Northwest Arkansas and a route on the Razorbacks.

Joel (41m 31s):

I say, why the hell not? I think you're going to see a lot more of this from States you wouldn't normally think about moving to because, Hey, everyone's got something to offer.

Chad (41m 41s):

Amen. And I say, Do it just as long as you're not working for Facebook.

Joel (41m 47s):

Again with the Facebook, what's, what's wrong with Facebook now?

Chad (41m 52s):

Well again, what we're doing is we're allowing people to be more distributed, right? And they're doing the same work they were before. It's not where like we're asking anything less, right? So Facebook, it's interesting. They've had a couple of things happen. Obviously we've talked about the Facebook rule of them wanting to deduct 20%, which is total bullshit for anybody who moves outside of Silicon Valley. But they also are creating these directors of remote. And I see it as a way for big companies to split upper management into different ways of leading like different regions.

Chad (42m 33s):

And th these regions being remote. So, you know, it's just putting a 2020 spin on something. A leader should already be equipped to handle in the first place. We're in 2020. If you need to be face-to-face to lead, then you should be back in 1980.

Joel (42m 54s):

I became president to lead, not to read. I think this is a position that will, will become popular, like director of remote work. Don't you? It feels like it's going to happen. There's no reason for it to have though. I mean,

Chad (43m 9s):

Think of it right now. Right? So we have managers who were already managing people who were in physical locations before they're learning how to do it remotely. Right? So why have a manager to be able to, I mean, other than analytics for a much larger organization for strategy, maybe? There's a possibility there, there's a possibility there, but overall, we as leaders need to be better at not having to be face-to-face to have real human conversations.

Joel (43m 45s):

I feel a little bit like you've been the Chad and Cheese director of remote work. Since about the time we started, don't you?

Chad (43m 54s):

I have no clue what you're talking about. We out.

Joel (43m 56s):

We out.

OUTRO (44m 42s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


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