top of page
Indeed Wave.PNG

Indeed Mimics Monster

Who goes camping in the hot sticky mess of July? Joel Cheesman, that's who.

No worries, we have a smooth operator filing in for the Master of Cheese this week. Crazy and The King Podcast co-host, Executive Director of Disability Solutions, all-around badass, and my wife Julie Sowash joins as we tackle questions like:

It's the craziest market we will ever experience - so stop, listen, and participate :)

Don't forget to visit our friends over at Sovren, Jobvite, and JobAdX. They are the wind beneath our... well... you get the idea.


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad (32s):

I'm your host, Chad, the "Great awakening" Sowash, accompanied this week by the talented and lovely.

Julie (41s):

Julie "I have a super hot husband" Sowash.

Chad (44s):

Oh, you love me so much. And all this week show the economy is adding jobs, but women are still not having it. Indeed follows right in Monster's footsteps. Wait, is that a niche LinkedIn in your pocket? Are you just happy to see me and Joey Chestnut pounds a record number of wieners down his throat. Oh, did I mention robots? Yes. There's robots.

SFX (1m 10s):

Shall we play a game?

Chad (1m 12s):

We'll be right back.

JOB AD X PROMO (1m 14s):

Job advertising is pretty simple, right? Write a good ad. Find the right channel, run tests, research others translate data, optimize. Okay. Maybe it's not that simple, but there is something that helps bring it all together and put it in autopilot for you. That's programmatic job ads with JobAdX. JobAdX gathers hundreds of channels and their job seeker audiences into one place so that your ads reach far and wide without having to create a ton of new accounts, create ad campaigns with no minimum spend or results focused and based on engagements from candidates. Have full control of your job ads using the JobAdX self-serve platform. Welcome to uncomplicated job ads. Find out how you can start attracting and engaging candidates with your ads in three steps at, that's

Chad (2m 4s):

Welcome back to the show. Is this your third appearance on the show?

Julie (2m 8s):

It Is my third appearance on the show. First time guest hosting.

Chad (2m 12s):

First time guest hosting, the stress has gotta be overwhelming.

Julie (2m 16s):

I really didn't sleep last night. I mean, I was super worried. I called Joel and I said, please come and do this podcast. I'm kidding.

Chad (2m 23s):

Yeah, I know you're kidding. So do me a favor, give the listeners a little background on you. Why are you even on this podcast?

Julie (2m 30s):

Well, besides being married to you and upstairs from you right now, I am the executive director of Disability Solutions. We are basically a niche IPO for people with disabilities and veterans with disabilities. We work with 50 plus companies across the US and Canada, and we've helped them hire more than 3000 people with disabilities train, nearly 6,000 people leaders and build inclusive hiring processes and cultures.

Chad (2m 57s):


Julie (2m 58s):

Yeah, not bad. Right? I also am lucky enough to lead our parent companies, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging efforts.

Chad (3m 7s):


Julie (3m 8s):

And last but not least, I am the co-host of the Crazy and the King podcast also on the Evergreen Network with my good friend, Torn Ellis.,

Chad (3m 17s):

Right? She's legit. There's there's no question there. One of the things I love about this woman, not just because she's a hot blonde, but because she actually drives outcomes, hiring outcomes, retention, identification. Into organizations, DEI efforts, their hiring of individuals with disabilities, which cross all sections of human beings. Doesn't matter what color, doesn't matter what religion, doesn't matter what gender. One of the reasons why I love her is because she does amazing work. So my first shout out is to Joel Cheesman and his family.

Chad (3m 57s):

They went camping this week, Julie.

Julie (4m 1s):

That's so bad. That's so gross.

Chad (4m 4s):

So it's July and they went south for a camping trip. Hot, sticky, three kids, camping in tents, not even, not even glamping. Right. I could see glamping possibly, but he's probably, I don't know, I'd say probably into his second handle of vodka right about now. So shout out, shout out to Joel. Would you like to go camping sometime soon, babe?

Julie (4m 33s):

No, no. I would never ever like to sleep on the ground and I definitely would not like to do it with my children.

Chad (4m 39s):

And just for all of those out there, I, after being 16 years in the infantry, the army infantry and sleeping on the fucking ground, guess what? This guy, never going camping again. Have a nice day. My first shout outs beyond Joel and his wonderful family is to Nicole Adamson over at She is a huge fan. And I want to thank her for listening and also sharing the show. Thanks, Nicole. You got to shout out there Julie?

Julie (5m 10s):

Yep. So on Crazy and the King, we call them name drops. So I'm going to name drop 1 billion people across the world who are celebrating disability pride month, which started July 1st. Most people don't know, but here we are, Happy Pride.

Chad (5m 26s):

So this is pride for individuals with this disability. So pride month is just rocking on?

Julie (5m 32s):

Yes, right into it.

Chad (5m 33s):

Got to love it. So quick question. Tell me what you thought of our pride, our LGBTQ+ for Dummies podcast that we did last month, we did five of them. What'd you think?

Julie (5m 45s):

I absolutely loved it. I named dropped it twice on Crazy and the King. I liked it so much. And I shared it internally with my entire parent company, the non-profit Ability Beyond. And it got rave reviews internally, too. That was fantastic.

Chad (5m 59s):

Yeah. Good. Big, big shout out to Michelle Raymond and the people over at My G Work for allowing a dumb white dude, a dumb white straight CIS gender dude to ask the uncomfortable questions that everybody wants to ask, but they're afraid to. I asked them, check out those podcasts. Next, a shout out goes to James Maley from Ireland. You would think that would be O'Malley but no, it's James Maley from Ireland. He loves our new European show. And why wouldn't you? We've got Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze who's our third wheel on the podcast. And we also have a guest host that we're starting to rotate in every other week.

Chad (6m 43s):

So if you haven't checked out the European ChadSheese podcast do so. And my last shout out is to James Phillips over at sense. So this poor dude, he was a closet listener of the Chad and Cheese podcast when he was working over at Career Builder. And I'm sure you know, why we, Career Builder was flaming left and right with that dumpster fire. And we had fun with it. Go figure, but now he can let his Chad and Cheese listener freak flag fly. Let it fly. James, let it fly, baby. So you got one, you got any left?

Julie (7m 23s):

Yep. So one more name Naomi Osaka, who is on the cover of Time Magazine today, continuing her stand for it's okay to not be okay. And taking care of her mental health and just being a badass.

Chad (7m 39s):

Yeah. She's definitely a bad ass. She's 23 years old and she said, you know what? I'm not feeling it. So I'm going to peace out for a minute and you can all fuck off if you don't like it. I love that. That is, that is some shit that we should have seen years ago, right? Years ago, I'm going to stick with sports and I cannot believe that Joel is missing this one because this is his opportunity to talk about his idol Joey Chestnut! Joey Chestnut slammed down 76 hot dogs during Nathan's hot dog eating contest. Can you believe that shit?

Julie (8m 18s):

That is so gross. Can you imagine A) eating a hot dog and B) eating 76 of them?

Chad (8m 24s):

That has to be a gastrointestinal fucking nightmare. I can't imagine how that wrecks his body for like days and days to come. So sports eating, I'm not really sure is a sport, but Hey, Cheeseman's not here. We're doing it for him. So we've been talking about you, FIFA Euro 2020, and you and I have been watching it. We've been enjoying it. What are your predictions? England just beat Denmark yesterday. I mean, Denmark, you got to love them. They were underdogs. They had a hell of a fight in them. They actually scored on England. Nobody else has in the entire tournament. Who are you picking between Italy and England?

Julie (9m 5s):

So my teams are in Portugal and France. They're obviously out. So I needed a backup team, a Crazy and the King listener, Matt Stubbs has been giving me hell all week for not rooting for England. So I'm going England just for Stubs.

Chad (9m 21s):

So I got to say Italy had a much harder draw. They were in a harder group. England was in a, it probably one of the easiest groups. Italy had to play Austria, Belgium, the number one in the world and they beat them. Spain! They showed how tired they were against Spain. So Italy is beaten up. I'm going to be rooting for Italy, but I believe England coming through the easiest group, the easiest draw, and this is a fucking home game for them, kids. England is going to bring it home. I can't wait to see it. I love the underdog and I love me some Italy. So good luck to both teams.

Chad (10m 2s):

So you and I kind of had on this next sports story, had kind of a disagreement that Shikari Richardson, fastest woman in the world this year is out of the Tokyo Olympics for weed. And I posted on Facebook. I didn't know that weed makes you faster, right? I didn't know that weed makes you faster. As a matter of fact, I thought probably slow her down some, but you know, what's the story of you?

Julie (10m 27s):

Yeah. So Shikari Richardson, fastest woman in the world did all of her qualifications at University of Oregon this last couple of weeks, and then got her drug test positive hit got a 30 day suspension. It ends before the Olympics yesterday. It was announced that the US Olympic team still left her off the roster. Yes.

Chad (10m 51s):

Not for PDs, for weed. So why the fuck is weed banned? Why I don't understand this at all. This feels like a reefer madness, 1936 moment, right? Does it not? A bunch of white dudes who are saying, no, you can't be taking that. I mean, this is back in before, the forties for God's sakes. We've been demonizing this drug and to be quite Frank, these athletes rip their bodies apart every single fucking day. And to be in weed actually helps in many cases. Right? So why is this a banned substance?

Julie (11m 30s):

So here's the thing, right? Like, you know, I have no problem with weed, get high everyday if you want. Enjoy your weekends, go on with your life. But for fuck's sake, she was this close to the Olympics. She just had to have a 30 day clean test. Right. And so I think it's bullshit. I think that weed should not be a banned substance. I think that we should be able to take it off of a schedule one drug, decriminalize, it, legalize it, what the hell ever. But right now in the United States, marijuana is illegal. And she had to know, like why even take the chance? You've worked your entire life for this moment.

Julie (12m 13s):

And we all wanted to see you cause you're badass. So yeah.

Chad (12m 16s):

Yeah, she tweeted, I'm sorry. I am human. I have to say that she has handled this publicly better than I would have there. There's no question. And she was also for our listeners out there. She was also battling the news that her biological mother had died. You know, she went to the weed. So I totally get that. Can't wait to see her back. The world is not just about the Olympics, but she'll be back at the next Olympics too. She's young.

Julie (12m 46s):

She will, she will. And she'll be amazing.

Chad (12m 48s):

That's right. And everybody don't forget to Chad and Cheese loves to give out free shit. So go to for the winning of free stuff. What kind of free stuff, Chad? Well, we have Chad and Cheese t-shirts by Cool custom logo that the listeners actually picked out. You can get one of those free, but you got to register. Free beer delivered to your door, sponsored by those crazy kids over at Adzuna and free bourbon by Sovren the best parsing matching tech in the business.

Chad (13m 29s):

So again, t-shirts, beer, bourbon, all free stuff from your buddies over here at Chad and Cheese. Are you ready for the news Juul?

Julie (13m 39s):

So ready Babe.

Chad (13m 42s):

OK, TOPICS! Here we go. Oh my God, Indeed. Okay. So there's an article on Yahoo finance and this is actually a Canadian article. Okay. And this is something we've kind of touched on before, but I thought it, it was time to actually dig into this. So the articles title was, "Is Indeed is ready to help companies ramp up with new Indeed hiring platform," close quote, Indeed announced the launch of the Indeed Hiring Platform, a new solution that allows employers to manage the hiring process from posting through interview directly on Indeed with no additional software.

Chad (14m 29s):

Yes, there are additional fees, but no additional software. Three steps, kids post your job. Screen and schedule. And the third one, interview. This to me is not what I would have expected from a market leader. First and foremost, it's two to three years of linked. It's really a feature, not a platform. They're actually trying to say, this is something big and it's not. Right? Not to mention. They rolled this out, I think it was like three months ago in the U S to no fanfare whatsoever. And they are not hitting, from my understanding, from my internal sources, many sources that Indeed this thing is going over, like a lead fucking balloon.

Chad (15m 12s):

What do you think?

Julie (15m 13s):

So I work for a nonprofit. We're a, you know, an SMB, we're a midsize company. For me I'm looking at it saying we have 150 open essential roles, right now, and our existing ATS is clunky and a terrible experience. If I can get $150 in or 150 bodies in the door faster by using Indeed with absolutely no wait time and no integration, like why is that a bad thing?

Chad (15m 40s):

Yeah. Well, and I think you hit the nail on the head there. This is a strike against ZipRecruiter because this is more focused to the SMB market. This is not an Enterprise product. It's not even a product to be quite Frank. It is a feature for an SMB. Here's my biggest problem. This is expected. The market leader should be moving the needle on their product. They should be evolving their product and they shouldn't be charging for it. They should be pressing the rest of the industry. We'll talk about the economics here in a minute, but overall, I'll give you a great example, back in the day when Monster bought Trovix, this is like back in '08, '09 Trovix was the best matching software out there.

Chad (16m 26s):

Monster bought it. Boom. I thought this was going to be big. What Monster did is they created what they called a six sense search. And instead of evolving their search and pressing the market forward and providing this to all of their clients, as an evolved innovation in their platform, they charged for it. Guess what happened?

Julie (16m 48s):

What happened?

Chad (16m 48s):

Have you ever heard a sixth sense search before?

Julie (16m 50s):

I have not.

Chad (16m 51s):

Yeah, because it went over like a fucking lead balloon. You know why? Because they charged for it. They weren't smart as the market leader, they thought they had to monetize every single fucking thing and then guess what happened? Since they didn't innovate and they didn't press the market they got snuck up on, by Indeed. And I think this to me, and this is why I wanted to talk about this. First off is Indeed is not being Indeed. They, do not have the same kind of focus. They don't have the same type of strategy they had back in the olden days when they were kicking ass and taking names. They still are from a revenue standpoint, but they're not from an innovation standpoint. I believe this is a huge problem with leadership.

Chad (17m 36s):

I think they need to scrub the board when it comes to leaders and they need kind of like, remember when Steve Jobs came back and he just totally, I mean, they had like hundreds of products. He erased that shit. He said, we're going to focus. We're going to do this shit. Right. And we're going to be the best at what we do. Indeed's not that anymore. I think that is a leadership and a vision issue and they need to get rid of their C-suite entirely. What do you think?

Julie (18m 6s):

So I guess we always talk about, keep it simple stupid. Do what you're good at. Don't try to be everything to everyone. Is that what you're getting at is that Indeed should stick to being a job board or that they should be pushing all of these new integrated solutions as one standalone solution or product for the SMBs that are coming to use it.

Chad (18m 30s):

What Indeed did right out of the gate is they got users on the crack, right? They, it was like, oh, look at all this free traffic. Remember that? Everybody got free traffic. It was organic traffic. Oh yeah. If you want to pay for it, we can definitely boost you and so on and so forth. They're not doing that. They're not getting people hooked on the process. They're not making this a baked in process methodology. It's not a platform. Again, this whole thing is an it's maybe screening plus? No matter, no matter. They shouldn't be charging for something like this. And from an economic standpoint, if you think about it, they could actually go in with this, with this platform, start to provide it as added value for all of these SMBs.

Chad (19m 17s):

If they really want to help? Provide it as added value to these SMBs, instead of an SMB posting one job, maybe they post five, extrapolate that out, right. They start to own the market. And then as they start to strangle their competitors, what does, what did old Indeed do at that time? Then they started charging differently, right? This is what I'm saying. Leadership in Indeed today, they do not have, let's go to a Rocky term. They don't have the eye of the tiger. They are that fat dude who thought he was going to win, got in the ring and got fucking punched out.

Chad (19m 57s):

So I think they are complacent. And the problem, and the reason why they're complacent is because they have silver spoon leaders in position. They need to get back in startup mode. They need hunger in that place and they need a no bullshit attitude. I don't think that it should be mean and aggressive and broke culture. I just think they need to have focus and they don't have it.

Julie (20m 21s):

Short-term thinking that's really what we're hearing. Short-term thinking. Not always thinking that our competitors are one step behind us.

Chad (20m 28s):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's what happened to Monster. They were on top of it. They were on top of the mountain. I was there, they were on top of the mountain. I left and I actually watched them fall off the mountain because of these exact types of hubris. They need to run with their eyes wide open instead of being drunk on market power because they have so much market power right now. It's ridiculous. The problem is that's when you get knocked off the top of the fucking mountain. Now, what I do want to talk about who I think is actually pressing innovation is a company called Doximity. They are what people would call the LinkedIn for doctors.

Chad (21m 11s):

They just went public and they're worth about $10 billion. Doximity exploded on the public markets last month with an IPO that saw shared values of the physician social networking startup double in 24 hours. Since launch Doximity has 1.8 million medical professionals in the US, including 80% plus of physicians on its platform. While building out the user base the startup also created a secure way for doctors to share information with patients and other doctors. They're creating useful tools and really a community where docs have to come back on a daily basis.

Chad (21m 57s):

Now, this is how they're like LinkedIn. Doximity has a two pronged approach. First prong ads, not too fond of this, but it creates a lot of cash. Drug makers market treatments to a very niche audience to doctors, go figure, while health systems promote content to doctors and number two, recruiting. Hospitals and healthcare facilities use it to fill open positions. Doximity sales hit 200 million last year. So my question is we just talked about Indeed not being innovative whatsoever, right? This to me is what I call innovative in a niche space.

Chad (22m 40s):

What do you think, do you think this is the evolution of a niche job board?

Julie (22m 44s):

I think I'm still struggling a little bit to understand exactly where Doximity plays, right? So they have hospitals solutions, telehealth solutions, talent solutions, and life science solutions. So a doc uses it every single day for telehealth services. And then we get as an added bonus, job advertising. So that part is a hundred percent, I get like we're using town serve or we're using telehealth. That's a fantastic way to capture that niche audience, by being integrated into something that they use potentially every single day. However, how much of talent solutions is actually a core part of their business versus tele-health and hospital solutions and life sciences?

Julie (23m 30s):

It again, they keep it simple, stupid theory. It just seems like a lot of stuff. And to have how much of their evaluation is actually based on talent solutions, versus what we know is going to be a huge market in telehealth as we move forward.

Chad (23m 46s):

Yeah. I think their valuations bullshit don't get me wrong. I think everything is over-valuated at this point, not to mention they're not the number one destination for job search traffic in that niche or anything like that, but here's, stick with me here for a second. Let's take Dice as an example, right? So what Doximity is doing is they are, they've created a community and resources within that community that they use on a daily basis. They have become, stick with me here, a lifestyle platform for docs and medical professionals, right? So let's pivot over to Dice real quick.

Chad (24m 25s):

Dice has failed dramatically because why? Because they have not served their community. How could they have served their community? Now, this is different than Doximity, but they could have served the tech community with the ability to have open source coding, to be able to have creditations, to be able to have communities where you could have FAQ's around different systems, updates, those types of things that would have been, are you listening, Art? You dumb shit. That could have been the place where the community had to go every single fucking day. And then guess what? They also have a careers area.

Chad (25m 8s):

The thing is here, the brilliance of this is the Google lifestyle platform. We use Google every day because it's a part of, it's interwoven in everything that we do. I have a Google home on our countertop. We use it all the time, you hate it, but you love it at the same time. I have a droid phone, right? I use Chrome, et cetera, et cetera. So what's a part of my lifestyle. Doximity is a part of a docs daily journey and how they connect with patients, how they connect with other physicians, et cetera, et cetera. Right? So that, that's my thought is that we need to create, the Dices of the world where they have gone wrong is they have tried to be that one place where all tech people go for just jobs and what they needed to be was a get hub, right?

Chad (26m 3s):

What they needed to be was a coders, like a CyberCoders. They needed to add Hacker Rank types of tech into their community, so that whether you're looking for a job or not, you are on Dice. But guess what? When you need a job, you know, we're going to fucking go. Right?

Julie (26m 22s):

Dice or Doximity.

Chad (26m 24s):

Exactly. So my question to you, because disability solutions has a job site. You have other services that are around that job site? Do you think your community and being able to evolve could actually benefit from, you know, something like this? Not exactly Doximity but something like this that is focused on resources for the community itself?

Julie (26m 51s):

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, when we look at talent acquisition and how we get the most number of people to work that we can, we start at the beginning, how does a person learn about a job? And so advertising and job boards in my opinion, are critically important. They're never going to go away, but how do I create a system where one, I can help those job seekers get as prepared as possible to rock that interview, to get that job, to understand how to apply? How can I get our 7,000 community-based organizations that we work with every day to understand and understand how to bridge the gap? I want to be the first thing they think of when they know they have people that need to get to work.

Julie (27m 36s):

And so we haven't built it in that tech way that you're talking about, but we have built credibility within our community as a go-to.

Chad (27m 46s):

You have human networks that actually do a lot of that.

Julie (27m 49s):


Chad (27m 50s):


Julie (27m 50s):

Yes we do. And we hear every single day. And that was a business decision that we made to spend time and invest in our community because we knew, and we know that they are the most valuable asset that we have at Disability Solutions, the job seekers, our brand and the community of, or the community-based organizations that help people get to work every single day. Without them I don't have a job. And so we have to build around just learning about the job and applying it to it and making sure our communities are ready to go.

Chad (28m 23s):

Yeah. Tech can't always be the answer for every single community. I appreciate that. We'll be right back.


You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal"


like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner.

Chad (29m 31s):

Okay. So before we get into the heavy job stuff, our listeners love to hear about what we're watching on streaming services. What's your favorite throw something?

Julie (29m 42s):

Well, I restarted Schitt's Creek for, I don't know, probably the sixth time. Still cry like a baby.

Chad (29m 47s):

I know. I know, but my, my super hot show guilty pleasure embarrassed to say it right now is Lucifer.

Julie (29m 53s):


Chad (29m 54s):

And I got in trouble because you were upstairs watching Lucifer. One of the main characters died or something like that. You are actually having an ugly cry. I think I was down watching UEFA, you know, Euro 2020. I didn't hear you. And you're like, how did you not hear me? I was having a breakdown.

Julie (30m 12s):

It was an audible, physical, pained cry, and you did not come to my aid.

Chad (30m 19s):

You hear that Ladies guilty pleasure, watch Lucifer for everybody. That's out there. If you haven't watched a Bosch on Amazon. Oh my God, watch Bosch. We also just finished the first season of the Nevers or at least the first mini season on HBO Max. And I have to say, I'm sad, but it's kind of bittersweet, but Lovecraft Country, which we both loved. Second season is not coming out. I am happy because I would rather have no season as opposed to a shitty season. You're not having though?

Julie (30m 53s):

No, I think there is an incredible amount of content that HP Lovecraft left behind for the author and showrunner of Lovecraft country and all black cast. HBO's first, all black cast had amazing reviews, amazing watcher-ship. I love it. Right. I think there's going to be some blow back for HBO from the black community and allies. And I think there should be, it was a damn good show,

Chad (31m 19s):

Maybe a spinoff, who knows? Okay. So let's, let's jump into jobs. The US economy added 850,000 jobs in June. At this pace business insider calculates "the U S economy is now on track to recover all jobs lost to the pandemic in just seven months. June's growth follows a gain of 583,000 jobs in May and marks the strongest one month jump since August, it was also the sixth straight month of job gains." Do you think we're actually going we're on pace. Do you think we'll actually hit seven months?

Chad (31m 60s):

You think it's going to take longer? Because we have a labor shortage is going on. I mean, there's a lot of shit right now.

Julie (32m 5s):

When I look at the numbers, those are really the vast majority were hospitality, jobs, hotel, entertainment, restaurants, and bars. I don't know that that's a sign of a true recovery. Obviously it means people are out there spending again, they're doing those things, but those jobs are, there are too many of them to feel like that could actually be the recovery. We need to see other sectors, professional jobs, non-essential workers getting back and growing in their wages. Right? So we can't just go back to how it was before. It has to be growth and just filling restaurant jobs is not going to cut it.

Chad (32m 39s):

Great, pointing that out. It was bulk hospitality, no question. So we also know that there have been 2 million plus women who were out of the labor force, leisure and hospitality positions impacted 1.4 million women with jobs coming back. Will women actually rejoin the labor force?

Julie (33m 1s):

Yeah, so actually 3 million women have dropped out since the beginning of the pandemic. We still have 2 million women who have not rejoined the labor force. And we're seeing participation in the labor force by women still continue to drop, and there has to be infrastructure. And there has to be flexibility to be able to bring women back to the office. And companies also need to be looking at re-looking at their benefits packages for women, whether it's the doula services that Walmart just put into place for part-time and full-time associates or parental leave, maternity leave, work from home, flexibility.

Julie (33m 41s):

I think that it is a shame that companies are already pushing us back to the other extreme of get your butt in the seat that is not going to get women who have a choice back into the office. Now, the thing that's most important to remember too, is that black women, women with disabilities and women in low wage jobs were the most affected women. And so there's that balance, right? We're starting to see the economy opened back up. So some of those jobs are going to, some of women are going to go back into those jobs, but those that have the choice don't necessarily want to go back to work, or they want to find new jobs where they can use different skills and grow in their career.

Julie (34m 21s):

So I think they're going to take their time and look at re-skilling or look at applying to more when they're ready, because they just don't want to go back to the same endless hopeless place of work that they were at before.

Chad (34m 34s):

This rolls right into an NPR story about the great resignation, right? So here's an excerpt from that NPR story "As pandemic life recedes in the US people are leaving their jobs in search of more money, more flexibility, and more happiness. Many are rethinking what work means to them, how they are valued and how they spend their time." We only get one life on this fucking rock people it's leading to a dramatic increase in resignations, a record, 4 million people quit their jobs in April alone, according to the labor department. Actually posted this out on LinkedIn and got an amazing quote from Lynn Bailey, who you and I both love, super smart.

Chad (35m 20s):

She said, "I think this great awakening and power shift from employers to talent is the story of our generation." The question for me is, do you think this will actually endure? It seems like yes, wages are rising. We have ,can the opportunity of autonomy rising. We have all these things that are rising, but without any guardrails in place, what makes any of us think that this shit's not just going to snap back to where it was before?

Julie (35m 52s):

It's going to be, there's going to be some short term pain, even with half of the governors in the United States, in mostly Republican states, shutting off early unemployment or enhanced unemployment, excuse me, early, we're still not seeing an increase in applications. I'm still not seeing an increase in positions filled. So that tells me we are at a breaking point where the American worker has and is fed up with living to make other people rich and to make other people have the life that they want. And that we're standing kind of firm on that. I think that a lot of employers are really going to hammer down. There's going to be continued attrition as they try to force people back into the places that they were before to be, you know, to kind of have that corporate overlord over you.

Julie (36m 42s):

And then we're going to come to a middle, right? So we're going to have, I think, quite a bit of short-term pain for both employer and labor market.

Chad (36m 49s):

Is middle good enough?

Julie (36m 50s):


Chad (36m 51s):

I mean, to me, middle's not good enough. It's been 50 fucking years where we've been given the shaft, the middle-class and lower wage earners have been given the shaft. We're not a country that makes shit anymore. We just consume stuff. We have changed dramatically in the last 50 years as a country. The question is without guard rails, is any of this going to stick?

Julie (37m 16s):

I think that we will come to a middle. Part of it's going to stick employers who are not short-term thinkers, who don't have chicken shit C-suites that can manage people when they're not sitting right in front of them will benefit and they will grow. And there will be adaptation to some form of flexible work schedule. But the American worker is going to have to put their stake in the ground and collectively continue to do what we're doing right now and saying, I am not working for poverty wages any longer, and I'm not working a thousand hours a week to keep the lights on and food on the table. It shouldn't be expected of any American that that should be the requirement.

Julie (37m 58s):

And over and over, we're hearing the C-suite, we're hearing Wall Street, tell us that the cog just needs to get back in the wheel and suck it up and continue to make money for the man. Fuck that. No.

Chad (38m 10s):

Yeah. Work has to accommodate life, not the other way around. So after months of waiting for workers to rejoin the labor force, some businesses have had it. They're going to robots. And I think it's interesting because we've been talking about this for years now. McDonald's with their order touchscreens, you walk in, you've got the order, touchscreens, QR codes for menus, Flippy, the hamburger maker, voice recognition drive-throughs, touchscreens on your tables. When you go in, you can actually order and you can pay there as well as play games. Robot food delivery, We did Pizza Hut talking about the delivery robots on the road and Starbucks, Panera and Cracker Barrel are going to a mobile app.

Chad (38m 58s):

So instead of having a waiter, you've got that mobile app. And you know, next thing you know, you're off and away. It's I find that one interesting because Cracker Barrel better have a great Jitterbug mobile app.

SFX (39m 10s):


Chad (39m 11s):

But anyway, I shouldn't, we have been moving in this direction years ago because these are jobs that fucking people shouldn't be doing anyway. We should be, we should have jobs that are available that actually provide somebody with purpose. That's what America's lost. We've lost purpose.

Julie (39m 28s):

Yes. And, and the biggest issue is that we have failed to prepare non-college graduates to go into skilled labor or even administrative labor. The fact that companies think you need a degree to be an executive assistant or something like that is ridiculous.

Chad (39m 48s):

Or a plumber yes.

Julie (39m 49s):

Or a plumber. Right. We all need plumbers and

Chad (39m 53s):

oh God yeah we do.

Julie (39m 54s):

So we've had an entire generation, maybe two that have been left behind to work at these manual labor jobs, especially after, you know, globalization and automation in the auto industry as a country, we haven't prepared our workers to do that or to move into skilled positions. So we've become basically a service driven economy, right? That's why we're seeing that the jobs in entertainment and hospitality, and really that's not sustainable for our economic infrastructure or the continuity of, of our country, because we're going to have a doc shortage. We're going to have a skilled labor shortage.

Julie (40m 34s):

We're going to have a shortage and neither government nor company seem interested in investing in the American worker. They're interested in keeping wages low and asking for more visas where countries are doing a good job of educating and preparing our workforce.

Chad (40m 51s):

And corporate welfare. And also just so that, you know, there's not going to be a robot plumber. Okay. Let's just go over that real quick kids. Okay. Well, we have a listener question that is specific specific for Julie. We'll be right back.

Summer-to-Evolve Jobvite PROMO (41m 8s):

Last year, Summer-to-Evolve saw us bring together some of the biggest names in talent acquisition presenting, exciting content to help us learn and grow in these evolving times. This year, we're back to do it all again, taking our eight weeks of virtual sessions on tour for the Summer-to-Evolve road trip presented by Jobvite, virtually visiting locations around the world. We're excited to share more talent acquisition tips, tricks, and best practices with you. Visit the to learn more.

Chad (41m 37s):

Okay. So this listener question came to Joel and I, and it's actually about D and I, which you are a much more of an expert than Joel or I, right. So I was going to have you answer this via, like a video recording that we would insert, but Joel is camping. You're on the show. Fuck. Let's do this.

Julie (41m 59s):

Hit me.

Chad (42m 1s):

Here's the question. What do you think the best first step is for organizations looking to build a more inclusive and diverse environment when you're essentially starting from scratch? Would it be to work with a consultant who is part of a marginalized community and specializes in DE&I, and if so, are there any consultants that you'd recommend?

Julie (42m 25s):

Absolutely fantastic question. Like it was literally written by me. It wasn't.

Chad (42m 29s):

It was not.

Julie (42m 30s):

It was not, the answer is yes, you need to work with an expert. You cannot bandaid DEI. If you want it to be an integral part of your business and just like any business driven activity, it needs an expert and it needs a strategy. And so that is critical.

Chad (42m 49s):

Isn't that the biggest issue that we're seeing from companies is that they are throwing this at HR and people who are not, and it's not their fault. It's not HR's fault. It's not talent acquisitions' fault. They are not experts in this. I remember in building military hiring programs, myself, I would talk to companies and they were like, oh yeah, we've got a veteran over there who's in charge of that. I'm like, okay, do they have any experience in this? Well, they were a veteran. Well, that doesn't mean they know how many people do, you know, actually say, oh yeah, we've got the individual with a disability over there. They're building our program.

Julie (43m 22s):

I mean, it's just a continuation of tokenism, when it's approached that way.

Chad (43m 26s):

It's not fair.

Julie (43m 27s):

And the reason that DEI programs fail is because they don't have investments and resource and expertise coming from the C-suite. That's not HRS fault. That's not talent acquisition's fault. That sits directly in the CEOs office period, end of story. So who's great at it. I'll start with Torin Ellis, my good friend and pod partner. He is a DEI B generalist expert, building strategy and, and programs for amazing companies and TA vendors. Kim Jones is (been on your show) on fire. One of the most brilliant strategists that I've seen on the street. I learn from her every single time she posts.

Julie (44m 6s):

And of course, if you're thinking disability, which you should be, because if you're not, you're not diverse and veterans with disabilities call Julie Sowash. Call Disability Solutions. We can help you do that too. Yeah.

Chad (44m 18s):

And I think that being in this work, right, just from my standpoint, working with veterans for years, being in a portion of it, understanding that when people are looking at DE&I, they're not looking at individuals with disabilities because they're not the D right? and they don't actually see that as diversity. I didn't understand until obviously you had put it in front of me that, you know, this is a humongous population of people that cross every cross section of who people are gay, straight, you know, LGBTQ community.

Chad (44m 58s):

It doesn't matter what gender you are. Doesn't matter what color you are. Doesn't matter what religion you are. If somebody does want to get a hold of you, talk to you a little bit more about this, or maybe even listen to Crazy and the King. Where can they find you?

Julie (45m 10s):

You can find me on LinkedIn, Julie Sowash, S-O-W-A-S-H. You can find our website at, and you can check out Crazy and the Ling at

Chad (45m 23s):

That's awesome. Cheesman, I hope you're not too sticky, buddy, but this is a pretty good show. Thanks for joining me, Babe.

Julie (45m 30s):

Thanks for having me, Babe.

Chad (45m 31s):

Excellent. We out.

OUTRO (46m 27s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


bottom of page