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Indeed's FUBAR UX

"Indeed gives zero fucks about employers!!! - Yes, that's a quote from an employer... and No you're not surprised.

What do you get when you cross Indeed desperation with Facebook hubris and throw in a dash of Google humility?

This week's podcast, of course. What's more?

As always, your favorite podcast is made possible by Jobvite, JobAdX, and Sovren.


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (21s):

Oh yeah. The least you're not in Texas, unless you are in Texas. In which case? Ouch. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Everybody. I'm your cohost, Joel "blame it on the windmills" Cheeseman

Chad (37s):

and I'm Chad "rolling blackout" Sowash.

Joel (41s):

And on this week, show Australia tells Google that's not a knife, that's a knife. Chad gets a chubby listening to Spotify and indeed proves once again that it quote "gives zero fucks about employers" end quote, we'll be right back after I finished shoveling my God damn driveway.

Sovren (1m 3s):

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Joel (2m 2s):

Good times.

Chad (2m 7s):

Welcome to America kids. The land of a rolling blackouts. What the fuck is going on, dude?

Joel (2m 13s):

Well, dude, I was sipping margaritas and hunting Marlin in the keys this early this week. So I got to leave that and come home to like a foot of snow. So I'm a little bit salty and not from the margaritas I had.

Chad (2m 27s):

Yeah, I think people in Texas are probably a little bit more pissed than you are right now.

Joel (2m 34s):

It's funny. You mentioned that because my father lives in Texas and he's still in route to get back to Texas. He lives in Austin. He has to go to Houston, which I guess apparently is thawing out quicker than the rest of the state. And then he has to go home. I'm not sure when he'll get to go home, how the roads are and whatnot. And then he gets to find out if his pipes burst or not, he's still a cold weather guy at heart, but he may or may not have electricity and keep in mind. He's 81. So yeah, life is going to be real fun for him this weekend.

Chad (3m 3s):

I'd be fucking pissed if I were a Texan, because we're talking about a state that is number eight in the GDP, worldwide. Prides themselves in being the quote/unquote "Energy state" and all forms of Texas Energy failed. I mean, I, I don't know where they fuck where'd they buy those windmills that they buy them from fucking Mattel. I mean, I don't get it here in good old Hicksville of Indiana. We have fields of windmills and those motherfuckers are cranking out megawatts. They've been doing it for years. I just can't get it. And again, being a Texan and obviously they don't pay taxes.

Chad (3m 47s):

They, obviously want, they want to have low energy costs. And I think overall it's like, guys, you gotta pay for something somehow. Fuck.

Joel (4m 1s):

And I know that we talk football on the show quite a bit. And football season is over. And our international listeners hate when we talk football, football fans will remember when the Superbowl was in Dallas a few years ago and they had this same shit happen. So not only do they say, you know, fuck it. They don't apparently learn from the past and try to fix shit. But there's another winter front coming this weekend. It's not going to get much easier anytime sooner for Texas. Shout out Texas. We love you man. No matter what, dude, are you ready for this?

Chad (4m 32s):


Joel (4m 32s):

Okay. We love Torchy's speaking of Texas. I mean love Torchy's right. So I'm talking about, we're talking about Torchy's with my sister who lives in Jeffersonville, Indiana. Sorry to get so Metta everybody, but okay. So we talked Torchy's and my sister goes, Oh, I think there's a, Torchy's moving into Jeffersonville, which is a small town of about 50,000 people. It's near Louisville, Kentucky, which is not a big city either. And it's a long way from Texas. And I'm like, get the fuck outta here. This is not, it's a different Torchy's or it's tortures or you're, you're getting it wrong. So I go to Torchy's website, I go to locations and I search Indiana. And Holy fuck.

Joel (5m 13s):

There's a Torchy's Tacos moving to Jeffersonville. So I, my friend will be tracking down to Jeff at least three or four, six, 10 times a year just to get some Torchy's Tacos. And I'm fingers crossed that they're coming to Indianapolis soon.

Chad (5m 30s):

There's just something about sitting in Austin and having a Torchy's Tacos. I think it's going to be entirely different being in Jeff, having a Torchy's Tacos.

Joel (5m 42s):

It's just a different kind of trashy. It's a different kind of trashy when you get the extra sauce on that taco.

Chad (5m 48s):

Yeah. Okay. I will take that.

Joel (5m 50s):

It's way better than the Taco Bell on taste. I'm telling you that, right?

Chad (5m 54s):

God, I fucking hope so. Shout out to Daniel Fellows from get optimal. Who sent me some French gin.

Joel (6m 2s):

And sent me nothing by the way. Thanks Dan. .

Chad (6m 5s):

You don't deserve anything.

Joel (6m 7s):

I'm not worthy.

Chad (6m 8s):

Here's the thing though. I got sent the gin. Julie confiscated the gin. All I have now is I can taste her gin when she's having cocktails, because it's obviously fucking good. So yeah. Thanks. Thanks Daniel. If you could send another package, that'd be great. Thank you.

Joel (6m 25s):

Are you a gin guy now? I'm a little confused. Or do they sell, do not sell whiskey in his part of England?

Chad (6m 32s):

Daniel is a different kind of guy. He doesn't just want to give you what you want. He wants to give you something that is outside of your comfort zone. And no, I'm not a gin guy. And he's like, you will love this gin and Daniel, I bet I would love that gin, if my wife didn't steal it.

Joel (6m 50s):

Speaking of women who like liquor, shout out to my sister who got remarried on Valentine's Day. How romantic is that? She did tie the knot. I know I mentioned I was going, but it, it did. She closed the deal. It was done. And she is soon to be Holly Bricker.

Chad (7m 8s):

Very nice.

Joel (7m 9s):

On her ID in case you are looking for her on, I don't know, Snapchat or something. Yeah.

Chad (7m 15s):

Nothing, nothing like sending, sending people out to troll your, your sister. That's awesome.

Joel (7m 20s):

Yeah. She's not on Snapchat or anything else, I think.

Chad (7m 23s):

In case you missed it, we interviewed Torin Ellis on the pod this week, check it out. It's called exercising our demons. And there's more Torin to come. We did like an hour or something with them. So I cut it up into, into short bite sized clips and I've already had people saying, Hey, that was too short. So don't worry. There's more coming.

Joel (7m 46s):

Yes. Oh man. I enjoy being in the punching bag on those podcasts. So thanks everybody for asking for more Torin. That's great. That's great. I appreciate it. Well, speaking of saltiness, you're mad at Kroger again, aren't you?

Chad (7m 59s):

Kroger, again is shutting down two locations this time in Seattle, the last one was in Southern California, because they are being forced. That's right. Kids forced to pay their essential workers, $4 more an hour. And again, I would like to remind everyone we're talking about people who, if you don't have them working, hence essential workers, the shit doesn't get done. They're the people who look you in the eye and say, thank you for shopping here every day. Right. But yet, but yet the fucking CEO makes $14 million.

Chad (8m 40s):

And we're talking about revenues, Kroger revenues overall corporate wide. It was like $121 billion. So when somebody says to me, Oh yeah, but grocery profit margins are really thin. Fuck you. Okay. $14 million then fuck you. Anyway.

Joel (8m 60s):

So that means the Sowash boycott is still on Kroger and well, I've got a new boycott of my own. I think speaking of mad. Word out this week, BK, Burger King is changing the chicken sandwich and I'm tired of this movement of Popeye's, Chick-fil-A, the original chicken sandwich at Burger King was one of the reasons I fell in love with Burger King and they're changing the damn chicken sandwich. I got a problem with that Chad, but I'm going to taste it first before I give a final verdict.

Chad (9m 32s):

I actually reached out to Ellie Doty, who is the CMO of Burger King. And I asked her if we could do like a taste test because they also, I think a Popeye's as a sister. Yeah. Sister franchise, if we could do a taste test. And I think that you would definitely be in for that. So hopefully, you know, we can get that done.

Joel (9m 51s):

A little date with you for some chicken sandwiches at BK. That sounds good. Sounds good. Bring on the coupons. Bring on the coupons, Ellie.

Chad (10m 1s):

I'm ready. Excellent. Real quick. We have in a event, that's a TNG an ADA digital that's right, those crazy kids from Sweden. They're having a Digital Unbiased Day on a March 18th. Just go to TNG.SE, scroll down to the wonderful looking painted lady and register. So some of your favorite people from TNG and ADA digital will be speaking ASA, Sarah, Elan, plus my lovely wife, Julie, Bass van de Haterd and I'll be speaking as well. So get in there, register, and we'll see you soon!

Joel (10m 43s):

Nice by the way. Speaking of Sweden. And I've got a quick, a Netflix movie recommendation. It's called Red Dot. Yes. It would be like if a Quentin Tarantino redirected Deliverance in Sweden. Oh, that's all I'm going to say. Okay. Well, I'm going to say if that sounds appealing to you, Red Dot on Netflix and you're welcome.

Chad (11m 3s):

It's on my watch list.

Joel (11m 5s):

There you go.

Chad (11m 5s):

Don't forget if you want free beer. That AdZuna is propping up kids. Free t-shirts that Emissary is a place where you go to do text recruiting, is propping up free t-shirts or free whiskey. That's right. We're giving away free shit left and right, because Sovren, Sovren loves you go to, click on free, or just go and register. And we give shit away, because our listeners deserve free shit.

Joel (11m 38s):

Yeah. Sovereign loves you, but they hate your liver apparently. Let's get to some topics shall we?

Chad (11m 45s):


Joel (11m 46s):

Let's pile on Indeed to start the show. What better way to feel the love? What better way to feel the love? So you got some, some, some, some mad users, but you got some UX issues with what Indeed's doing right now.

Chad (12m 1s):

So remember when Indeed changed their entire user interface and model a few years ago, they used to be like Google, not Google for Jobs, but Google, when you would click on the job link, it would take you to the corporate career site where you, I mean, just directly.

Joel (12m 19s):

Like a search engine.

Chad (12m 20s):

Yeah. Like search engine.

Joel (12m 22s):

Yeah. I remember those days.

Chad (12m 24s):

Then they changed their user interface entirely, where you click on the job title, then it opens the job description on Indeed. So you can view it there. Then you click apply. Then you go to the corporate career center. So that just, that takes you to two clicks. What they just did is they created an inter-digital page that says, no, Hey, before you leave, make sure you've registered with Indeed. So this interstitial creates a three click obstacle for a candidate to apply on the corporate career site. Number one, view the job on Indeed. Number two, click apply on Indeed version of the job description.

Chad (13m 7s):

And then number three, you have to click. No, thanks on that fucking interstitial. You finally made it kids and Indeed are the one. Remember Indeed was, Oh, they're always talking about like traffic quality and content and

Joel (13m 21s):

We're not NASCAR.

Chad (13m 24s):

We don't do that because we're clean. We're easy. We're simple. We're the best user experience for a job seeker. Well, that's all gone to shit kids.

Joel (13m 34s):

Is Indeed double-dipping? That's what it sounds like. They're getting paid the click and then they're getting the user. They're getting their double dipping and those motherfuckers. I tell you why I got a problem. I'm going to pile on their super bowl ad God dammit, cause it's been a week. So the verdict's out, this ad sucks. It was in the middle of the pack in terms of scoring. I haven't seen the fricking ad since the super bowl and granted we're not in the biggest market in the world. So if you are seeing this ad a lot, please hashtag has Chadcheese. So I can, I can see what's going on. But if, if YouTube is any guide of the success of this ad or this video they've had roughly 250,000 views, which kind of is sucky anyway.

Joel (14m 16s):

But to put that in, in comparison, Fiverr, whose ad was nothing to write home about either has had 7 million views on YouTube. So Indeed hasn't even cracked a million and, or has seven million. That means your ad sucks. No one wants to watch it. No one wants to share it. No one wants to talk about it. Just throw it in the trash, chalk it up as a Mulligan and move on Indeed.

Chad (14m 38s):

And then I've got one more as we pile on, we actually had an employer send us Indeed hate mail. And let me, let me open it up. I'm going to go ahead and read it for you. Okay. Here it is.

Joel (14m 51s):

I like the sound effect. That's good. Like you really have a letter.

Chad (14m 55s):

I'm opening my email right now.

Joel (14m 57s):

Are you David Letterman right now? Your mail.

Chad (15m 1s):

Indeed gives zero fucks about employers, three exclamation marks. They do no product management and when you do provide feedback, it goes nowhere. I look forward to watching them tank for that reason" end quote.

Joel (15m 19s):

So it was a, it was a love letter is what you're saying. It was a love letter that you just opened.

Chad (15m 24s):

Again, this is the sentiment that is out there. It is been out there and it's just getting worse. And if recruitment ad agencies who control a huge amount of spend, if they don't do something about who the fuck is?

Joel (15m 40s):

You know, who else gives zero fucks about employers? Let's talk about Facebook for a second. Shall we? So this is a mean show. Okay. So we got word it's sort of official. We've talked about it. It's been speculated on, but Facebook are scraping apparently sites that have not given permission, which doesn't surprise anybody that's been going on for a long time. But we had a quote come in. This is being tracked now people in their Google analytics or analytics program are seeing basically referral traffic from Facebook. Now this is a reader said, quote, "Facebook are scraping our site and company pages, indexing it to Facebook jobs. They are using the same schema as Google and they are going hard.

Joel (16m 22s):

We have no relationship with Facebook at all. They are doing it all themselves. So the bot doesn't declare itself, but it's been going at it for over a month." This sounds like a porno. Okay. And then on Friday night we started getting large amounts of traffic from Facebook. Okay, well that's nice. The spike perfectly matched this unknown scraper we were tracking. So Facebook is going in without telling people what's going on, but then people are getting great traffic. Good thing, bad thing, indifferent?

Chad (16m 51s):

None of this makes sense to me to be quite frank. I mean, seriously. If Facebook wants to go all in on jobs, then great. Do a pilot with companies with big brands, then release information and data and Harold, how awesome it is. I mean, it's like their PR team has no idea how to work optics. And, we're not just talking about jobs. You're talking about anything fucking Facebook does. The optics for Facebook right now is for shit.

Joel (17m 28s):

Yeah. Facebook has bigger issues to deal about a deal with which we'll get to in a second. But marketplace has been a strong suit for them for quite a while. They've dabbled in this jobs thing, the Slack competitor thing. Clearly there they're getting feedback from data, that marketplace is spiking. I assume with COVID that people trying to sell stuff on marketplace buying stuff because it's cheaper. So you're getting a lot more eyeballs to marketplace in some genius there said, Hey, if we just like have more jobs, we're going to get a lot more views, which means a lot more advertising, which means a lot more money. So this makes total sense from a Facebook, like let's just get more eyeballs standpoint. I'm guessing that most people that are getting scraped, don't give a shit as long as they're still getting traffic, they're not paying for it.

Joel (18m 12s):

Now at some point, Facebook might charge or upgrade jobs or boost them as part of the scraping service. But for me, it's just a par for the course, Facebook is going to do what Facebook is going to do, and it's going to take your jobs and it's going to make money from them.

Chad (18m 26s):

As we just finished talking about the, the serious, fucked up goodness of Indeed. If Facebook starts to do that, I mean, companies are looking for alternatives. That's all there is to it. They don't want to use Indeed. It feels like they have to at this point, so they're looking for alternatives. If Google does go, pay-per-click on Google for Jobs. If Facebook does ramp this up and then start the ability for targeting with jobs. I mean, those are two aspects of get me the fuck away from Indeed that companies I guarantee you will gravitate toward because they hate Facebook and Google less.

Joel (19m 8s):

Yeah. And don't think that these moves aren't like on Indeed's windshield when they're figuring out what the fuck do we do. And by the way, dropping 10, 15, whatever million on a Superbowl ad is part of that panic. And this is the stuff that we're seeing with Google and Facebook, because this stuff is coming and Indeed sees it. And part of this grab of, of candidates is part of like, well, fuck it. We're getting the traffic. We're going to try to get as many of those people into our database as possible so that we can milk them for as long as we possibly can. t

Chad (19m 37s):

As we talk about Google, we talk about Facebook. We're also talking about Australia.

Joel (19m 42s):

Oh, we love Australia.

Chad (19m 43s):

And Australia, Australia has stiffen their spine and said, no, you're not taking our shit, Google, Facebook, fuck you. You're going to pay for the content. And it seems like Google folded.

Joel (20m 0s):

Yeah. When you live in the country, that has 90% of the world's venomous like animals, you really don't give a shit when Google threatens you with shutting down. By the way, never compare Australia to California because that really is an insult, apparently, I pissed off a lot of Australians when I made that comparison. But yeah, so Google kind of played chicken with the government of Australia. Google has about 95% of the market share of search in Australia, roughly 25 million users of the service, again about size of California. But anyway, Google blinked, they said, okay, we understand this is what's going to happen. They understand data that people use their site for new search, that they want to get information that's, news-related, that's solid, you know, journalistic content.

Joel (20m 48s):

And they said, we were going to lose this fight. And we just have to come to terms with the fact that the hundreds of millions, if not billions, and maybe even bigger than that over the last couple of decades that we've been fleecing, newspapers and newspaper content is finally coming to a head and we're going to have to pay the Piper. This is what happens. I love the fact that Rupert Murdoch is kind of behind this. And I'm sure that he's been wanting to stick it to Google for a long time, but he's going to start getting checks from them, which I don't think he's gotten since Google was my was Google was MySpace is search engine and pay them a lot of money to do that back in the day. So this is sort of the reality that Google faces they're either going to pay or they're going to be out of business.

Joel (21m 32s):

And if they don't play companies like Bing and search engines like Yandex and Baidu are eventually going to move in and try and chip away at Google's dominance. So what I think is interesting is look, every country on the planet is going to do this. Like as soon as Google folded, like Canada started, you know, getting all chesty. Europe is going to get super in line to get money from Google, whether or not the US does it, I don't know. Maybe eventually I think they have more lobbyists than most States in Washington. Google does. So they'll hold that off as long as possible. And now Facebook is in the crosshairs.

Joel (22m 13s):

Facebook for the most part has said, suck it. And they have very different business models. I don't think as many people go to Facebook for news as they do pictures of family and other stuff. And I don't know how this works, where if I want to share something from news site a does Google or does Facebook say, sorry, you can't share that. Can you not share any news? Obviously that's a little bit frustrating. Facebook probably will pay in the end somehow. Yeah.

Chad (22m 41s):

Well, Google understands that if they step away, there's going to be a vacuum and they don't want that. And so they're playing the long game and they're playing smart, not to mention, they have mountains of fucking money for God sakes and they negotiated and I guarantee you, they negotiated a good deal. Facebook is painting themselves into a corner, unless they follow suit. So overall great job Australia! Way to stiffen the spine everybody's watching you. And hopefully everybody else will follow suit because content has worth.

Joel (23m 14s):

Yeah, for sure. Look, journalists have been taking it in the, you know what, for two, for 20 some years, thanks to the decline in classified revenue and the cheapening and commoditization of journalism. So the world will probably be better off by newspapers, making more money and being able to pay better journalists. My question is newspapers used to rule the world in regards to classified advertising does this inflow of money and better journalism, increase subscriptions, increase eyeballs and thus bring back more companies and employers to online newspapers. I got to think it does, right?

Chad (23m 52s):

Yeah. I'm with you.

Joel (23m 55s):

All right, man. Let's take a quick break and we'll get to acquisitions and all kinds of good stuff. We'll get a little less salty I think.

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Chad (25m 2s):

Out of the break I have, I've got breaking news. I just received a message from Recruit X. It seems like Recruit X has acquired Reverse Delta, including their FX Recruiter career site platform. I have no clue who these people are, but it sounds like a match.

Joel (25m 22s):

Sounds like a match.

Chad (25m 24s):

Yeah. So we're going to have to check this out, but yes, it RecruitX acquires Reverse Delta. Interesting. Very interesting.

Joel (25m 33s):

And we just had drinks with James Deneen. How could he not give us the scoop on that? That's some bullshit. Thanks James. Thanks James. Well, don't call it an acquisition, apparently.

Chad (25m 44s):

It's a matchup.

Joel (25m 45s):

Recruitee yeah. Acquired. This is kind of a weird, a weird deal

Chad (25m 50s):

From the Netherlands. Of course, it's weird.

Joel (25m 54s):

Obviously it's the Nordics! Amsterdam based Recruitee is combining with Helsinki based provider of core HR software in the Nordics to quote, "create a premium digital HR solutions offering the combined group will have over 4,000 customers across Europe and the U S and a team of over 250 employees, PSG leading growth equity firm, partnering with B2B software companies will back the business as the majority shareholder following its investment in Sympa in July of 2020," the CEO clarifies that this is neither a merger nor an acquisition. They just want to keep, they want to keep both companies separate here because they actually serve different regions and different customers.

Joel (26m 37s):

The combined group aims to achieve unicorn status. We'll see about that in the next to six years and become quote, "one of the biggest global HR tech companies around" high aspirations in the Nordics.

Chad (26m 52s):

Oh yeah. I mean, they've got, I mean, it sounds like they've got some really good growth going on. Private equity is they're buying shit up, kids and PSG obviously saw that this startup kind of up, up and coming ATS Recruitee they're obviously gaining traction, looking at just some of the functionality of the platform. It looks, looks pretty slick. Sympa is pretty much more of a backend system. So PSG bought Sympa last year, and now they're gonna combine forces, not merger, not acquire, but this, to an extent it's an acquisition for God's sakes. People come on.

Joel (27m 32s):

It's a wonder twins, activate.

Chad (27m 34s):


Joel (27m 35s):

Acquisition. I guess something like that. Look, these European countries can only grow like locally so much. And then they have to expand. And these kinds of "partnerships" I'm using air quotes can help them do that. So good luck to them. 4,000 customers across Europe, US. Yeah. It could be a match made in heaven. It could be a, it could be a true love affair in the Nordics, everybody.

Chad (27m 59s):

Yeah. And if they're going to want, if they're going to want more brands in the US they've got to grow and obviously, you know, private equity sees that, which is why they put the money in

Joel (28m 10s):

Justin Gignac.

Chad (28m 12s):

It's Gignac.

Joel (28m 14s):


Chad (28m 16s):

It's Gignac. He's got the coolest name. How can you forget Gignac?

Joel (28m 19s):

Yeah, it's been awhile and I was, I was drunk on Canadian whiskey, I think at the time. But yeah, Fiverr, Fiverr acquires our buddies at Working, Not Working. If you guys haven't heard and a lot of you probably have an earliest forgotten. It's been a couple of years. We interviewed Justin about his company and couldn't be happier for him. What a great guy. What a great story.

Chad (28m 40s):

Yeah. It's interesting because there's a quote from Fiverr or CEO, Micah Kaufman. This acquisition expands our penetration into high quality creatives and freelancers. Yeah. I mean, this is a weird kind of a mix because Fiverr is somewhat of a race to the bottom from the stamp, from the standpoint of, I want creative cheap, right? That's where you go to Fiverr. That's what you do at Fiverr. Working, Not Working entirely different. You're going for a race to the top. You want high quality shit who, from individuals who have worked with big brands and they have an incredible portfolio.

Chad (29m 20s):

So they are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. I think this is smart for Fiverr, but I don't know that they're going to operate these two organizations separately. How does that actually work? I think Working, Not Working their pricing kind of their subscription model has to change or to fucking cheap. And I think Fiverr has cash to be able to boost them. I think it's awesome for Justin.

Joel (29m 45s):

Yeah. It's awesome. And I think, you know, keeping the brand separate to some degree, I think is going to be important. I mean, let's agree that creative folks, aren't flocking to Fiverr for like the best deal or the most money in their pocket. Justin quoted in the article that I read with Fiverr's technology and powerful insight into building a global platform, Working, Not Working our community can be at the center of that future and no matter how the creative industry shifts talent will always be a constant. So obviously Fiverr's resources are much greater than what Working, Not Working had. And the global footprint that Fiverr can deliver is going to be much greater. The release also says Working Not Working will help Fiverr in its efforts to build new products that appeal to the advertising and marketing communities.

Joel (30m 32s):

The acquisition is said to expand fibers penetration into high quality creatives and freelancers and gives them the opportunity to tap into its own technology. So yeah, I think keeping creatives happy, getting a footprint and creatives and hopefully at some level learning about how to get the most money for your people on your platform, right? Because Fiverr are still competes with Upwork. They're competing with more and more people Uber. So if they can figure out how to be the place where you're going to get the best money, then that's a huge win for them. So I'm really excited to see where this goes and really, really happy for Justin. Just a solid dude.

Chad (31m 12s):

Solid dude, solid creative, overall

Joel (31m 15s):

solid as...

Chad (31m 16s):

I wouldn't go that far peaches and herb, thing like this happen. But again, when we talk to Justin about this, we talked to Gignac about this. He was like, you know, Fiverr's a race to the bottom and he's right. How can they perspectively stop that and make Fiverr in itself a better product as well, so that those individuals don't get fucked every time they have to take a, cheap ass project.

Joel (31m 44s):

Do you think our friends at Comuno are on the line with a Upwork right. About now to see what to see, what kind of deal they can make.

Chad (31m 51s):

So I think overall Communo, I mean, we know those guys pretty well. I think Communo itself has a better model from a revenue standpoint, I would assume just because they are catering to ad agencies that they're doing a hell of a lot better than what Working, Not Working was doing. Right. So it's just, again, it's models in it's a go to market strategy. And I think they were entirely different. They were on two ends of the spectrum.

Joel (32m 21s):

And Communo if nothing else is going to watch to see what Fiverr does with Working, Not Working. Even if they fuck it up, they're going to be there to try to clean up people that are wanting to leave Working, Not Working and come to Communo.

Chad (32m 33s):

Yup. And as we talk about the new distributed workforce, right, we talk about giggers, we talk about now just where you work. Spotify says work from anywhere, kids. And guess what? We're going to set a base of salary. And that salary is going to be out of San Francisco. And it doesn't matter where you live. That's how you're going to get paid. You know why? Because your time, no matter where the fuck you set, your butt is worth the same. It doesn't matter.

Joel (33m 5s):

You love this. You're being very restrained. I know you want to tell me off and in lieu of this story, so feel free to tell me I was wrong and that you're going to be right about this. And

Chad (33m 18s):

I don't know that that's the case. I just know that big brands like this need to stand up for the people, right? Facebook is looking to fuck their people over, not to mention there's a big difference in doing business back in the old days, the reason why everybody had to be in those big cities was because that's where HQ was. And everybody had to go into an office, manufacturing, plants, those types of things. They had to do that. It was all something that it was standard. That's not how we work today in 2021. Costs were high in cities because the population density now that we can distribute more, you can take that money into areas that need economic boost.

Chad (34m 8s):

So I think, I think this is good for our country, only if employers don't try to fuck people over more, like Facebook. Yeah.

Joel (34m 18s):

I live in St. Louis and get paid, like you're in Stockholm. Sounds like a pretty good deal, but yeah, it's, you know, I look at this as a major differentiator in recruiting talent. You know, if, if I knew that I could get paid as if I live in London and you know, live in London, Kentucky, that's a pretty sweet deal, man. I'm living pretty high on the hog being able to do that. And if, if every high-tech company kind of has to follow suit and pay people, you know, what a PHP developer gets and whatever major market it is, they're going to get paid that in Seymour, Indiana, or wherever they are like, that's pretty interesting. And it expands your talent pool significantly.

Joel (35m 3s):

It's also really nice when times are good that you're paying people really high wages. If streaming music ever becomes a challenge business, if it ever becomes Blockbuster, at some point, they're going to start cutting costs. And if you're paying people really well, those people are going to get cut. So it, it works really well when times are rocking more power to them. If they're going to roll the dice on this and force, everyone's hand to pay more money or not pay on, you know, a basis of where they live. That's a really powerful recruiting strategy.

Chad (35m 33s):

Yeah. Well, because of capitalism and increasing margins, which is a part of it, when it's a no guardrails, we start to hear organizations using terms like cost of living to engineer, reasons to pay people less. And personally that's bullshit. Again, I definitely behind Spotify. Base Camp is doing this as well. I stand behind that. It doesn't matter where you live. If you give 40 hours to do the same project that somebody else is doing across the United States, you deserve the same pay.

Joel (36m 14s):

We'll see how the grand experiment works. And let's take a break and we'll talk about some, some major moves in the C-suite. Hold on kids.

Jobvite (36m 23s):

You know, Steve, it feels like we keep getting pushed to hire more and better candidates with no more budget. Right? I wish there was a way to get better results from what we're doing. Actually, I heard in episode of Chad and Cheese about this framework from Jobvite. Oh yeah. Evolve. It's a technology agnostic framework to help TA teams get better results from their recruiting efforts. And we don't even have to be a Jobvite by customer to use it. I bet we would get better results if we orchestrated all of our efforts. You mean like a centralized process and all of our channels working together? For sure, whether it's job boards, social, or even texting with candidates. Let's do that.

Jobvite (37m 3s):

I'll send you the link. Cool. I'm going to finish watching this episode of Bridgerton.

Joel (37m 8s):

Still need to watch that Bridgerton. Dammit. I'm not going to watch. Have you watched this thing?

Chad (37m 15s):


Joel (37m 15s):

Are you going to watch it?

Chad (37m 16s):


Joel (37m 17s):

Okay. I tried to give Downton Abbey about two episodes and I couldn't do it. So no, no way am I doing this.

Chad (37m 24s):

No. We have movement kids. We have movements.

Joel (37m 32s):

That shit I got back in college. No way. That's a different, different log

Chad (37m 36s):

For that. Right? VONQ . One of the leading European recruitment technology companies announced today, the appointment of Arno Schaefer as CEO earlier this week, VONQ is stepping back. Although he will remain involved as a shareholder. If you remember kids, there was an acquisition slash majority shareholder swap with the private equity firm, capital D in October of 2019, VONQ acquired IGB last year. And it's obviously time to move capital D people into place.

Chad (38m 19s):

Not to mention, to be quite Frank. I think too many co-founders and CEOs of startups stick around way too long. Really good startup startup phase is so much different than running the business, when you're out of startup phase and you're in regular business mode. And I think this is probably a very smart move by a co-founder. Yeah.

Joel (38m 44s):

Yeah. I mean, these VONQ has been around since 2006, so they've had a little bit of time for this co-founder to get things right. He got a little bit of money last year or two years ago. Interestingly, it was an undisclosed Series A in 2014 that they got around the money. So basically the clock has ticked down on his regime and they bring in Arno Schaffer who looks like one of the bad guys from the original Diehard. That's always fun, but he's in there. He's apparently sold a company, a successful exit.

Joel (39m 24s):

The grownups are in town. Now, kids at VONQ , and they're gonna tighten this ship and they're hell or high water. They're gonna liquidate this thing in some form or fashion, or they're going to go, I don't know, on the public markets.

Chad (39m 36s):

Take that money. You still have stock in the company, relax, enjoy your kids, take a breath. And then who knows what's next?

Joel (39m 46s):

And who knows what's going to happen to Intello? Chad, they're a hot mess, aren't they?

Chad (39m 50s):

We received an anonymous message that said, quote, "the downward spiral is still on. Mark Landwer CRO just left to go to a competitor Phenom from my standpoint, if, and I don't think he was, I don't think Landwehr was actually there that long, was he?

Joel (40m 9s):

Six long months, Chad, a real investment in the hire real investment.

Chad (40m 15s):

Yeah. I mean, if you, if you get into, if you get into a position as C R O, and then leave to go to another startup as a VP there's obviously some C-suite issues. And we know that the CEO just changed over not even what a year ago?

Joel (40m 35s):

Yeah. That was a new CEO Robert Sao, if I'm pronouncing that rightly correctly, he won't come on the show to tell us how to pronounce his name, but he's always welcome if he wants to explain what's going on at Intello. So he's been there since May, 2020. So if my math is right about four months into it, he hired Mark. Mark had been at CareerBuilder for 13 years. I think he was at a staffing company before that. So definitely a veteran knew the industry knew what he was getting into by no means is a lightweight. And in six short months, he figured out this dumpster fire isn't for me, I was at CareerBuilder for 13 years. I don't need any more time doing that shit.

Joel (41m 16s):

I'm going to go jump over to Phenom.

Chad (41m 18s):

This is very telling, I mean, you don't leave this type of, of a position in six months. There there's obviously pressure from investors again and not to mention Danielle left late last year, as well, I mean the chief product officer. So, you know, they they've had some, some great talent leave. It sounds like it's winding down rather quickly.

Joel (41m 44s):

Which is really challenging for their social media department, because most of their social media is celebrating people's anniversaries. And eventually there won't be anybody to celebrate for their anniversary, so they've got to get a new social media strategy over at Intello pretty soon.

Chad (41m 58s):

Well, my, my strategy to celebrate is that this podcast is over and I can have a fucking beer. We out.

Joel (42m 5s):

We out.

Chad (42m 6s):

We out.

OUTRO (42m 6s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode.

OUTRO (42m 51s):

And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


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