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Transforming Talent Acquisition into a Revenue Engine with Data

In this episode, Desiree Goldey, director, talent operations & culture at ZRG Partners, dives into the transformation of talent acquisition (TA) from a cost center to a revenue driver. She underscores the pivotal role of data in showcasing TA's contribution to revenue growth through metrics like cost per hire and quality of hire. Goldey emphasizes the need for HR and TA to collaborate closely with other departments, such as marketing, to enhance overall efficiency. She also touches on the impact of automation on recruiting processes and the future of HR in a more automated and flexible landscape. Goldey advocates for updating outdated processes and embracing a hybrid work model for better talent management. She concludes with a call for data-driven decision-making in HR and TA, especially in diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts.


Joel Cheesman (00:30.184)

Yeah, it's Caitlin Clark's favorite podcast aka the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always the Lisa Leslie to my Sue Bird Chad. So wash is in the building and we welcome Desiree Goldie, director, talent operations and culture at ZRG don't call them Zerg partners Desiree welcome to the podcast.

Chad (00:35.78)

Thank you.

Desiree Goldey (00:53.856)

Welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

Joel Cheesman (00:58.216)

Thank you. So a lot of our listeners don't know you, may not know ZRG partners. Let's get a taste about

Desiree and just a little bit about the company before we get into the real business.

Chad (01:03.652)


Desiree Goldey (01:08.616)

Yeah, I mean we could do this for forever talking about me. But I will give you the short, I can do the short bio. I do work for ZRG, which is a global talent advisory firm. So I want to explain a little bit about that. That just means that we handle all things talent, executive search, interim placement, consulting, and culture, and embedded recruiting, which is a division that I work for.

Joel Cheesman (01:14.568)

Me too.

Desiree Goldey (01:35.524)

So come to us where all your talent needs.

Joel Cheesman (01:38.024)

So you're saying Zerg goes pretty deep it sounds like. Okay, good.

Desiree Goldey (01:41.604)

Oh yeah. Bizarres. Yeah. So yeah, it's a pretty deep situation over here. It's great though. It's great. Yeah.

Chad (01:50.532)

So you're on the RPO side of the house. How big is the organization in total?

Desiree Goldey (01:55.492)

In total, ZRG is about 600 people. Yeah, so huge presence. I would say the biggest presence is an executive search. They went around the globe to acquire some companies, including ours, which was originally Hub recruiting. So.

Chad (02:13.284)

Gotcha. Gotcha. Well today, Denise or Desiree is, uh, she's coming to us to talk about how a broken system needs to be fixed, or maybe we're just going to talk about broken systems. Hell, I don't know. We'll find out. So Desiree, we had a, we had a great chat, kind of like green worm, great chat around, around this. Um, and being on the, and I always say this, that RPO and staffing looks at this.

as a business, because it is, right? It's the business of talent where talent acquisition looks at it as a job. So we want to have a discussion today around how we can start to kind of like push more of the, the, the business mindset toward talent acquisition. And is that something that ZRG has been doing for years? Is this something that's new? Are you trying to help TA better understand the business?

so that they can go ask for more budget. What really was the impetus of the push for this?

Desiree Goldey (03:17.732)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think in embedded recruiting, we're always talking about it, right? Because at the end of the day, we have to justify you bringing us on, right? So because we are we are another cost to you. But at the end of the day, what we go in and we try to figure out how we you can speak to your leaders about making this a revenue source that works for you and becoming a revenue center, improving that through data. So it's always been a mission.

Chad (03:32.194)


Chad (03:46.916)

Wow, so let's go deep on that one. How you can start to show revenue growth. How do you usually start off with that? Because for the most part, talent acquisition, HR, I don't know how many CHROs. I've actually had, they've said to me, oh well, we're a cost center. CHROs, they say that they're a cost center. So how do you get them out of the mindset? Where do you start at? Where's the first step?

Desiree Goldey (03:49.38)


Desiree Goldey (04:13.572)

Yeah, for me, it's always talking to them about.

what is happening within your talent acquisition team or your HR department, because I mean, how many recruiters just sit in HR, what's happening that's making the team more costive, showing more productivity and cost -effective to the business? If I fill a position in one day less, I've saved that company.

an extreme amount of money, it's just proven in data. But the first part is always figuring out if they're even collecting the data, right? You know, we get into so many of these organizations, they're not even collecting the right things, right? Yeah. Yeah, right. No.

Chad (04:58.052)

Okay. So right there, right? Stop right there. Now we're talking about, because everybody talks about time to hire and cost per hire, right? Which the C -suite doesn't give two shits about. They want to know where that you took it to that next step, which is incredibly important. And this is different from department to department to department, because some departments know better than others what their people actually, how their people impact the bottom line on a daily basis. Right? So,

Desiree Goldey (05:11.588)


Desiree Goldey (05:25.346)

All right, absolutely.

Chad (05:26.884)

So how do you dig into that? Because I think, again, this is not an incredibly complex formula. It's a different one department by department. I get that, right? But it's not a complex formula. How do you guys go and help the TA leaders understand this and actually go after this crazy nebulous number that's out there?

Desiree Goldey (05:45.986)


Desiree Goldey (05:51.204)

Yeah, it's the crazy and again, it's not standard for everybody, right? Like you already said, right? But we can take cost per hire. We can look at days time to fill and but we also look at quality hire of that hire. What was the value? How many were screens were had? How many things got you to that finish line in a short period of time, right? I like to go in and when we bring in anyone as an embedded recruiting team, we like to say we get you to the finish line faster.

Chad (05:56.034)


Desiree Goldey (06:21.11)

and we're able to do that because we're looking at the overall strategy of what you've been doing in the past and how we can make it more efficient, right? And get you to the finish line time to hire faster. It's not that hard, but it is different for each department and each organization, right? Cause not everybody cares about the same damn thing. Just saying.

Joel Cheesman (06:46.216)

I wanna...

Desiree Goldey (06:46.5)

You know, and I have a huge issue still with quality of hire, right? I struggle with it, right? Because if you give me a year recruiter who's only been doing it a year, how am I supposed to measure the quality of that hire from somebody who's been doing it for 20? I struggle with the measurement of it, but I do think it's something that needs to be looked at, right?

Joel Cheesman (07:08.232)

I want to stay for the record that when I saw we were doing a podcast called, uh, broken systems, that this was going to be a therapy session for the inner turmoil that I deal with every day. So I'm a little, little disappointed in that.

Desiree Goldey (07:17.652)


Chad (07:17.7)

It says nothing to do with nothing to do with your ED. Cheeseman. It's okay.

Joel Cheesman (07:20.968)

I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. Sorry about that. All right, back to Desiree. Desiree, it seems as if...

Desiree Goldey (07:21.572)


Desiree Goldey (07:26.148)

Listen, we could go on and on about the brokenness of people and talent, right? But I feel like the struggle is real every day, but yeah. We'll stick with the systems. Yeah, but yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (07:37.138)

We'll stick with the systems instead of the inner turmoil of the, of the human condition. Um, Desiree, it seems like from a metric standpoint and justifying existence and profit centers, something has to do with building bridges to the departments that are thought of as profit centers, whether that's marketing, sales, do you give any, uh, recommendations or tips or what are your thoughts on just building that bridge to marketing, building that bridge? So the numbers, it's a, it's a.

Desiree Goldey (07:48.652)


Desiree Goldey (07:53.956)

Yeah. Right.

Joel Cheesman (08:06.024)

coordinated effort instead of HR out on an island somewhere, which is I think the case for most organizations.

Desiree Goldey (08:11.78)

Oh, absolutely. And I always tell my recruiters when we're going in, I want you to be a strategic business partner. Right. And that means looking at everything. And so that means meeting with marketing. Right. If they have a diversity inclusion team, meeting with that team and figuring out what it means to them, figuring out competitive intelligence. These are things that I don't think we're always talking about in talent that makes us look like we're just a cost. But if we're working across those departments, we can bridge that gap. We can't be this siloed thing that's working just by ourselves. We need to be reaching out, teaching and training, and also learning. And that's how we're going to get, we're going to move the needle on this topic. Right?

Joel Cheesman (08:55.976)

Yeah. And I, you know, we talked to, to Jeff Lackey, we've talked to him a few times and I'm always amazed at how, how general conversations aren't happening with, with HR at the table, uh, air quotes there. Um, what, how do we make money? What's our vision for the company? What kind of tips would you give to arm HR to go into that meeting with some good questions, some good conversation starters, just to get the ball rolling.

Desiree Goldey (09:00.12)


Desiree Goldey (09:10.596)


Desiree Goldey (09:20.548)

Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the conversation that even have the meaning, right, because I think.

Who wants to meet with HR and talent? Most people, they're like, oh God, another talent meeting these people. Just find me the people, right? I don't want to talk about how you need to find the people, right? But I think positioning is something we're trying to do better for you so that you can make more money at the end of the day is going to be how you get that meeting. And then when you go into that meeting, asking really questions about them and doing a lot of listening. I found that we go in and we're like,

Chad (09:35.874)

Just find me the people. Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (09:56.086)

to prove our case so much that we're not actually listening to what the business needs all the time. And so sometimes it's just listening, asking defining questions, really doing a deep dive on what's happening in their organization, in their department, because a lot of departments have their own vision for their department. What's the vision for this department? And getting to those those real deep, deep answers is going to be how you win the war.

Chad (09:57.668)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (10:20.324)

Well, it's interesting because, and again, if we arm ourselves with the data and the understanding of what it actually costs per day for just a specific position to be open, then we can actually take a look at some of the projected areas of our process. And many of those are hiring managers that could have actually cost the organization. Who knows how much? Tens of thousands of dollars just because it took them so long to get on the interview, make a decision, et cetera, et cetera. But if we don't have those numbers, we can't make any of those cases. Not to mention we can't speed up those hiring managers because we're not talking their language. If we're actually saying, look, every day it costs X, right? Let's say $2 ,000, which is a very low number, by the way. $2 ,000, right?

Desiree Goldey (11:12.708)


Chad (11:14.976)

every day that you don't do something or this doesn't move along. But the problem is we don't, we're not armed with those numbers. So how you're talking about data, how do we go after that? How do we go after that data? How do we get those numbers?

Desiree Goldey (11:23.138)


Desiree Goldey (11:27.01)

Yeah! I think this is a systems and technology thing too. I was talking to someone the other day about how all of these tools are out there right now for talent, right? And no one's using them effectively. I was in a great Ashby demo the other day and all the things it can do. But if you don't take the advantage of the things that it's able to do, then it's just like buying a useless tool, right? And for my startups, I'm like, I know you have an analyst, right? If you have an analyst, let him

Chad (11:31.17)

Uh huh.

Desiree Goldey (11:57.59)

do some Power BI work over there or something, right? Like you can get to the data, the numbers are there. You just need to collect them and get to them and then have someone who knows how to analyze them too, right? Because I think we struggle with that. Some people are like, oh, well, this chart looks great, but what do I do with this now? And I think there's, and definitely in our field, I think there needs to be more training around analytics. Just bottom line.

Chad (12:00.066)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (12:21.33)

You know this. This is funny Desiree. We were in the we were in the Ashby demo as well and we have a sound bite from that that presentation.

Joel Cheesman (12:34.312)

So Desiree, I feel like a lot of turning something into profit means cutting it. And we're living in the era of efficiency. Thanks, Mark Zuckerberg. And we've seen a lot of layoffs in recruiting and the departments that we're talking about today. Do you see a future where those departments come back?

Desiree Goldey (12:37.826)


Joel Cheesman (13:03.528)

And if so, do they look different or is everyone just going to automate as much as they can to save as much money, which, oh, a penny saved is a penny earned, right? So how does the future play out with returning recruiters or not?

Desiree Goldey (13:16.108)


Desiree Goldey (13:20.356)

Yeah, I think it looks differently. I don't think they come back the way they were. And that's just my opinion, but I think they come back in a very different way. Listen, if I'm a leader, I don't want to do the layoff at the end of the year where I'm laying off 20 people. It's just not right for the business. It doesn't seem to make sense. So if I'm smart, I'm going in with a different view and I'm figuring out how to get all of this work done because I still have the same amount of work.

in a very different way. I do think there's automation that's going to happen. I don't think it takes over talent. I'm not a believer. But I just think it's just not true. But there is going to be a different way to get this done. And that's where folks like ZRG come in to get some of that work done. We work in an embedded recruiting model that works on an hourly basis per quarter, which means you can switch us on and off. So in the times where you have this high volume that's happening, great.

let's come in and do what you need to do and then we can go away and you haven't laid anybody off. I just think there's very different versions of what this looks like at the end of the day.

Joel Cheesman (14:26.056)

So you being on the front lines, are you getting more calls from companies saying, you know what we laid off half of our department. We need to ramp up recruiting again, but we don't want to go back to the way it was. We're going to go RPO. We're going to go out. Like, are you having more of those conversations these days?

Desiree Goldey (14:42.724)

Yeah, 2023 was the worst in bed of recruiting an RPO. We saw more RPOs go away because it just they were laying off people. Why would you talk to an RPO? But now that they figured out they laid off all these people, but still have the same amount of work. Duh. Right now, we need to do something about it, but I can't bring all that staff back. So, yes, our I.

Joel Cheesman (14:54.056)


Chad (14:59.492)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (15:01.286)


Desiree Goldey (15:07.012)

It's like 50 % higher amount of the amount of calls we've seen since the end of January till now. It's insane. Zerg is doing great. ZRT is pumped in.

Joel Cheesman (15:13.416)

Business is good at Zerg. I like it.

Chad (15:18.692)

So yeah, it's amazing. You cut that much staff and productivity drops. Oh, I wonder how that happened. I don't know because people actually do the damn work for God's sakes. It's yeah, it's amazing. But I mean, like the, the Facebooks of the world, the fan companies, they were so bloated that they could get rid of tens of thousands of people. And it wouldn't really fricking matter in the first place because their, their profit margins are so high. Um, so at the end of the day, let's talk about process process.

Desiree Goldey (15:26.5)

It's... Right?

Chad (15:47.264)

automation because everybody's talking about AI. That's all well and good. Um, whether it's RPA AI, just process automation in itself. Are you helping companies because many of these companies have the same process they had 10, 15, 20 damn years ago. Are you helping them understand right out of the gate that they need to scrap that shit and start from ground zero?

Desiree Goldey (15:48.42)

Sure. Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (16:13.188)

All the time. I can't tell you enough how many times I go in and go, what is happening here? Right? Yeah.

Chad (16:20.228)

Well, give me a success story. And does that include technology always? I mean, just give us kind of like a, you know, like a success story.

Desiree Goldey (16:24.708)

Yeah. Yeah, so... Yeah, high level client we have right now, we went in and they had no system or no process in place. So I'll use that. Or they were using a very outdated view of what was happening in the world of talent. And we went in, we said, listen, first of all, you have to get an ATS. I don't understand what's happening that you're not tracking where anybody goes through spreadsheets, right? So we were able to integrate a greenhouse actually for them. And my recruiters and

Chad (16:39.812)


Desiree Goldey (16:58.198)

and my team then went through and talked about automation, talked about the next steps, talked about strategy, talked about interviewing, talked about all the things to rewrite the process. And right now we're three months in and it's up and running, filling jobs, getting things done, and it's working. But we had to scrap their idea, which was very, I will say this, anytime we go in with a traditional leader, it is the...

hardest experience to get them to come to the other side. I can't, I can't. I think that they just believe what's working works and if we have to change everything, I mean, who likes change, right? And at the end of the day, but I just think they get stuck in this talent is just this thing that should be handled this way. And it's just not true anymore. There's just too many things going on in the world, including AI, including all the other automations, all the things that they could be doing more effectively. We actually work from a tech stack that we are able to say like this fits here and this fits there and let me help you get these tools and see if they work because that's what we love to do. We love to go in and help you get to a better place in your talent. Right? It's a hard job.

Chad (17:57.634)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (18:14.82)

So what are you guys doing with your recruiters though? Because I think that's the biggest key is the people who are actually on the ground doing the work in the trenches day by day by day, if they understand process automation, they understand how to use technologies to be more efficient, right? Then you can go in and show value almost instantaneously. So what are you guys doing to be able to continue to upgrade those recruiter skills? Because technology is, I mean, if you're not using it, it's going to kill you. There's no question.

Desiree Goldey (18:44.568)


Desiree Goldey (18:49.316)

Yeah, so my second part of my title is culture and that means a lot for us here in better recruiting. We are constantly having skill sessions. We are constantly bringing in speakers. We are constantly. We just did a chat. GDT one. We're having how to talk financials right now because I do believe that to be. I believe to be a strategic business partner in talent acquisition. You have to be on top of your game at every every moment.

And we can't put you at a client if you aren't at this level. Because they can go get Joe Schmo recruiter. I need to have the brightest and the best to put in front of you. So we're constantly doing that here. It's necessary. It's necessary for myself. I attend more webinars and stuff than I know what to do with myself half the time.

Joel Cheesman (19:31.88)


Chad (19:37.476)

From my understanding, you listen to a lot of Chad and Cheese. That's how you get all your information.

Desiree Goldey (19:40.132)

I do. I do. I do. I do. I am a long time listener. Love you guys.

Joel Cheesman (19:40.68)

Oh, hello. Hey, say more about that. Yeah. And she's, that's, those are two good looking guys. Uh, Desiree, it seems like the other side of, um, bringing people back going RPO instead would be the globalization. And you talked about getting the best of the best. And one of the magic, magic elements of work from home and remote is I can get the best because I have the world to choose from.

Desiree Goldey (19:55.396)


Desiree Goldey (19:59.78)


Joel Cheesman (20:07.976)

What are you seeing on the front lines of companies that are bringing people back? It seems like we go back and forth like we're from home is happening. No, it's not. Returned office is happening. No, wait a minute. No, okay. What do you see on the front lines from your companies? Are they widening the net on a global level and letting people work from wherever? Or do you see like more control freakish, they're all getting back to the office and you need to work in that bubble, not the global bubble.

Desiree Goldey (20:18.434)


Desiree Goldey (20:36.708)

I love it. I know I see both, right? Like I see it happening in both ways. I see startups being usually the more lenient of these, right? They're like, hey, work from wherever you want. Do whatever you want to do. Work whatever schedule. But these very traditional companies are doing the hybrid thing more often than not. Seems to be the sweet spot.

Joel Cheesman (20:49.382)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (20:56.328)

So you see both sides. Where are you on the argument? Are you buying returned office? Are you buying work from home?

Desiree Goldey (21:05.764)

Hell no. If I have to see the inside of an office.

Again, I'm going to be really, really sad. I am a, I am, I am. I do not believe in water cooler talk. Okay. It drives me absolutely bad. So I will say no to return to office, but I, on the front, I do believe there is a world where hybrid makes the most sense for me. My partner goes in one day a week and that's it. And it works for them. Right. I don't have a problem with that, but I'm not sitting.

Chad (21:12.588)

I'm gonna go.

Desiree Goldey (21:39.414)

in 45 minutes traffic in Austin, Texas to get to you so I can start my work day. It's just total BS.

Chad (21:43.812)

Oh no. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (21:47.912)

See hy hy hybrids, hybrids and hybrid to me is returned to work. Isn't it? I mean, I can't live in, I can't live in Burlington, Vermont. If I got to be in the office two days a week in Miami, right.

Chad (21:48.996)

45 minutes is like a mile away in Austin.

Desiree Goldey (21:52.036)

I know, I know.

Desiree Goldey (22:00.932)

Well, I agree the talent side of things says that that lessens your pool, right? Immediately. Like you no longer get the best and the brightest because you now just like shrunk your pool to this little thing. And it's ridiculous, right? So to me, if you want the best and brightest, stop. Let it work from wherever. I don't, who cares?

Chad (22:08.196)

Mm -hmm.

Joel Cheesman (22:08.84)


Joel Cheesman (22:19.302)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (22:24.74)

And again, this is the business side of talent, right? And it's interesting because, you know, working a few years on the dark side over at Ronstadt, you know, RSR, everybody was remote. I mean, everybody was remote and that was the best way to keep an incredibly flexible and fluid workforce. I mean, you've got the benches that you're dealing with. You've got clients that are all over the place. You need to have individuals in different time zones.

Desiree Goldey (22:28.164)

Yes. Right.

Chad (22:52.804)

So if you're a big company actually trying to ensure that you're giving your clients the best customer service and, you know, just times, phone times or whatever it might be, having a remote force is generally the way to go. And if you see big companies who are customer focused, that's what you're saying.

Desiree Goldey (23:15.812)

Yeah, we have a client right now. We're doing diversity, equity, inclusion hiring.

strategy with right now and I just had this argument about return to office and how it lessens the pool for them for diverse candidates. I mean you're killing my speed here right now. What do you want me to do? You want me to work in Dubuque, Iowa for like you know all the women and all the Black people? Like what is happening? Like I'm sorry. Nothing's gonna change for you.

Chad (23:21.772)

Uh huh.

Chad (23:45.572)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Desiree Goldey (23:48.324)

You know what I mean? So like these are conversations as strategic business partners that talent needs to be having, right? And HR needs to be having what is happening to the talent pool all the time.

Chad (24:01.38)

Well, and you're doing market research for those organizations to be able to demonstrate to them, Hey, look, the people that you're looking for aren't here, which is why we need to broaden up. And again, I think this is all around data, which we need to get really closer to on the town acquisition side of the house.

Desiree Goldey (24:08.452)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Desiree Goldey (24:15.03)


Desiree Goldey (24:19.78)

I can't say enough that I stress to people because I geek out on data and maybe everybody doesn't need to geek out on it. But you definitely need to get to a good place where you even understand it and are providing it. I don't think we're doing that effectively across talent acquisition. I think we have really great moments in it, and others do it really well. And then there are some that just aren't doing it at all, which is kind of stressful for me. Like, how are you figuring out how to make a move? So yeah, absolutely.

Chad (24:28.228)

Oh, they do.

Joel Cheesman (24:53.032)

I'll, uh, I'll let you out on this. Desiree, you mentioned DEI and I can't let you go. Cause I know that's a focus of what you are doing. We had a big, we had a big spike in interest with George Floyd. Me too. You, you know, you know, the spiel is DEI on the down. Is it. Stabilizing is it up? Like, what are you seeing on the front lines in terms of how companies are embracing or not? Uh, diversity equity and inclusion.

Desiree Goldey (25:20.548)

Yeah. Yeah, it's a struggle for me, but I think this work is hard. It's always been hard. It's always been difficult. It's always sucked. No one listens. The whole jam, you know, like, I don't think this attack is any worse. I just think the political scene that we have right now makes it feel a lot tougher. I think it's always been a struggle, but.

Joel Cheesman (25:36.2)


Desiree Goldey (25:46.052)

from an organizational standpoint, I see there are tons of companies still that believe in this, right? Because they're seeing, again, the data that proves this works, right? That they can make a difference, right? And then there are other organizations that just have never cared, did it to check a box, and are moving on from this war, right? They're like, okay, we tried that in 2020, 2021, didn't really work out for us, we're just gonna leave that. It is a war. Again, talent falls off during layoffs, so just diversity, equity, inclusion. It goes right by the wayside. Because unless they can prove it, again, data, tell people all the time, prove it in the data, that they can prove that this worked and did something, it will stay. But if you can't prove the business case for it, you're going to lose the war every time, unfortunately.

Chad (26:19.268)

Mm -hmm.

Chad (26:39.044)

So is that the one thing that you would, any TA or HR professional listening to the podcast right now, if they walked away, what would that one takeaway be from Desiree?

Desiree Goldey (26:52.548)

Dig into the data. Get the data. Be about the data. That's my thing. Be about the data. Be about the data. Become the data. Okay, now we're getting crazy. I loved it.

Chad (26:58.1)

Be about the data. Be about the data.

Joel Cheesman (27:00.776)

be the data.

Chad (27:03.396)

Be the data. All right, Desiree. Well, we appreciate you stopping by. If somebody wants to connect with you, where would you actually send them?

Desiree Goldey (27:16.164)

send them to LinkedIn. It's my favorite. I spend a ton of time there guys. Come check me out. I'm always glad to connect.

Chad (27:17.572)


Joel Cheesman (27:23.944)

LinkedIn is our favorite. How do we not dig into that? Maybe there's another show in there somewhere. Chad, that is another one in the can. We out.

Chad (27:24.324)

Desiree Goldie. Possibly.

We out.

Desiree Goldey (27:33.764)

Thank you.


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