Hallelujah podcasts can't be impeached! Because Chad & Cheese are always dancing on the line of what's legal in at least 17 states, and this week is no exception.
On this week's show:
Yeah, we're not right in the head, but we go great with a nice bottle of bourbon on a cold night.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
oHide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. udible>
Thank God podcasts can't be impeached. Am I right? Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast, boys and girls. Your favorite guilty pleasure. I'm your cohost Joel "banned from Pinterest" Cheeseman.
Chad "never been on Parlor" Sowash.
And on this week's episode, Greenhouse just got a lot greener, Hirevue gets nervous and rioting on the nation's Capitol will get your ass fired even if you live with your mother, which reminds me, Hey mom is my grilled cheese ready yet?
Hang on, people.
Jobvite PROMO (58s):
Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com.
Joel (1m 30s):
Chad (1m 32s):
Joel (1m 34s):
This has me dancing. Like after the Browns won, hell yeah.
Chad (1m 41s):
This is a groove right there, man.
Joel (1m 43s):
Total groove. This is our new intro music right?
Chad (1m 45s):
That's that's that's our new group. That's all I got to say. We've got we're grooving.
Joel (1m 49s):
Chad (1m 50s):
Joel (1m 50s):
Love it? Love it. Get funky with it. That's got some stuff
Chad (1m 54s):
Talking about grooving and some stank that then, then Browns put some stank on the seat of the Steelers A Team.
Joel (2m 0s):
Holy shit. I still think it's a dream. I'm ready to wake up, but they're their reward for winning is go play the number one seed at their place Sunday afternoon. But hey, stranger things have happened. My homes, my homes is due for a bad game. My homes is due.
Chad (2m 17s):
You got to wake up from the dream sometime, unfortunately.
Joel (2m 22s):
So he liked this weekend real quick. We got a Bill's and Ravens. Who you like there?
Chad (2m 27s):
Oh, I love me some Dobbins, but the Ravens are, the Bills are hot. I I'm sorry. I still gotta go with my heart. Ravens. Gotta go with Ravens.
Joel (2m 36s):
Okay. You got Ravens there. I guess you got Chiefs based on your last comment.
Chad (2m 40s):
Joel (2m 42s):
And then we got Rams and Packers in Green Bay.
Chad (2m 45s):
Yeah the pack.
Joel (2m 46s):
Pack should roll that one. And then the old man go at it with the Buccaneers and the Saints with an average age quarterback of what? 43, 45, something like that. Who do you got there?
Chad (3m 0s):
Drew Brees has his boys back. So Camaro's back. And so is, you know, our boy Thomas. So I'm hoping they can pull it out. The problem is the saints have not been putting up the offensive numbers that we're used to seeing in past years. So, I mean, I really think that the Buccaneers that, they have the upper hand in this one.
Joel (3m 24s):
Well, considering the Buccaneers barely beat, like some dude that was packing groceries before he was quarterbacking the Washington team. Brees should have a pretty solid effort on him. But man, those Buckaneer weapons are tough. Jesus
Chad (3m 41s):
It's hopefully it'll be a good game and hopefully Brees and the Saints come out of it. But yeah, I have to think that the Buccaneers, they've got a pretty stout crew, especially on defense.
Joel (3m 53s):
And we won't speak of the college title game this week. Who you got in shout outs?
Chad (4m 1s):
Little shame going to Lockheed Martin in the United States Department of Labor because Lockheed Martin, they found out just what hiring discrimination is worth. It's about $1,137 per affected American workers. So we're talking about Lockheed Martin having the Department of Labor, the OFCCP, meet them and say, look, we see instances of hiring discrimination. And Lockheed Martin says, no, you don't. And they're like, yes we do. And they're like, no, you don't. Okay. So what's going to settle this? What settles it is and there were 616 affect affected individuals.
Chad (4m 42s):
Those individuals in total got $700,000. Now that seems like a lot of money, but for an organization with annual revenue, again, annual revenue of about $60 billion, it is total horseshit. We're talking again, $1,100 per person.
Buzzer (5m 4s):
Chad (5m 5s):
So overall, this is one of the things that we always talk about. If the United States government is not going to slap these organizations with fines to actually make them change their behavior, they are not going to change their behavior. They can pay this kind of money all day and they don't even feel it. This is coffee money for Lockheed Martin. So yeah, this is a big shame on Lockheed Martin and an even bigger shame on the US Department of Labor. It is your job to protect individuals. And when this kind of shit happens, you send a bad, bad stank through the ranks of discrimination.
Chad (5m 46s):
Joel (5m 47s):
And speaking of saying, have you heard the new intro? Oh yeah. All right. I'm going to, I'm going to go from a big loss like you, but I'm going to go to a rebirth of a rising of the Phoenix. I want to give a shout out to QR codes. The once mighty technology fell on hard times, thanks to the pandemic. QR codes are back, baby.
Chad (6m 13s):
Such a hater.
Joel (6m 14s):
No one, no one wants a menu that they have to touch. You know, no one wants to grab anything off a shelf like QR codes are back baby, and I couldn't be any happier. So shout out to you if you QR Codes, enjoy your time in the sunlight.
Chad (6m 30s):
Excellent. Well, shout out to the new recruitment automation conference, the Weyden windy peeps, Dave and team over there. They had me on with a star studded panel, go check it out. I'm sure they have the video, the recording somewhere, but we talked about diversity, equity and inclusion. We talked about process, methodology automation. It was all over the place, but had some amazing panelists. I mean, Jen Terry, who's now at Joveo. She had 20 years at AT&TT. Had Stacy from the New York Times, she's the head of their TA function there. EA Sports, Trent Cotton, Crystal Jay.
Chad (7m 12s):
It was just, lit!
Joel (7m 13s):
It was lit. You know, I think we, we determined that you were the bat boy to that line up.
Chad (7m 18s):
I was the water boy. Yeah. I was getting coffee.
Joel (7m 21s):
Well, dude, I want to get to the news unless you got to enter the shout outs, we can sprinkle those out to show. Cause there was some big, big news that dropped today. This shit is fresh off, fresh off the press still smells like, like a
Chad (7m 35s):
Joel (7m 35s):
Yeah. Like Teen Spirit and Inc. Greenhouse popular applicant tracking system has nabbed, am I looking at this right, $500 million from TPG and Investments? Taking a majority stake in the company. This` is following a year when they laid off a bunch of employees, but also reported surging revenues. Yeah. Yeah. Thoughts?`
Chad (8m 1s):
And you know, we, we did cover when they, Daniel Chait or Marcomm or whoever the fuck did it, they put out a message to pretty much everyone in which iCIMS didn't do by the way, talking about, you know, the need to contract, right? During COVID and what they did and what many companies did was they had to focus on being able to stay sustainable. And then also, if you, if you take a look at the numbers, they had only taken, I say only, but they are a core platform. They'd only taken about a hundred million in funding. This is something that no question puts a staple in what we've seen over the past couple of years that these applicant tracking systems, aren't the old legacy types of applicant tracking systems that we once knew that just stood there withered away and became, you know, these old warehouses full of data that were really just shit to maneuver through that.
Chad (9m 6s):
They're really making a charge, Greenhouse, Jobvite, iCIMS, Smart Recruiters. I mean, they're really starting to be the new age of tech, right?
Joel (9m 17s):
Yeah. So the new valuation of the company, let's just call it a billion dollars for shits and giggles. This is super big and, and Greenhouse, I think, you know, couldn't have gone to a better company, you know, they were born out of sort of that post web 2.0 era. Whereas we talked about iCIMS, JobVite were sort of pre all that. They were sort of born out of the old technologies. Greenhouse was one of those that had the nice balance of technology from an openness platform that you could build apps upon as well as looking at how design matters in employment, whether it's the consumer side or whether they're they're hosting career sites.
Joel (9m 60s):
And, and you, and I think are pretty universal when we hear a startup ask us who should I integrate with, like, who should I build an app upon Greenhouse is always one of the first that we talk about one, because it's so easy, they've sort of built their business on that. It's free. That has been sort of their secret sauce in my opinion, is that the app store and their integration with companies because of that tech infrastructure and that foundation has really carried them on. And they've been a really sort of slow organic success story and hats off to them. I do think they are quickly going into that, that tier two or tier one ATS, where they're in the discussion with iCIMS and JobVite and those guys, and certainly make themselves a candidate for an IPO at some point and/or acquisition talks here in the future.
Joel (10m 56s):
So, so good on them. They did it right. They grew slowly and organically built a really fanatical user base. The customers, I know that use, them really, really like them, so good on them, good on them. And they've come out of the pandemic stronger, I think from that. And they're ready to head into the new, the new decade with a lot of fire under their ass. So it's good.
Chad (11m 18s):
And what are they going to do with that cash? So startups across the world need to have better ATS, CRM, partnership strategies. I understand if you're trying to gain proof of concept and you're working with a company here and there, but if you're beyond proof of concept, you're beyond that phase in your main focus is on partnership strategy, which includes acquisition you're in for a wild ride. These are the organizations who now have a lot of power to be able to provide you a new client base, possibly. And also if you perform well, guess what the prospect of acquisition is there too.
Joel (12m 4s):
Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, just to go back to the app store, you know, you and I both work with quite a bit of startups. And I can say that I definitely push all the ones I do that want to integrate into Greenhouse. And I can say that of the three or four that typically are the first in line Greenhouse regularly performs better than most of the others. And I think that, you know, promoting their store in the marketplace again has been a real, a real win for them. They reported growth of 30% year over year in 2020. So they're definitely a good place.
Chad (12m 38s):
It's the easy answer when you're talking about integrations.
Joel (12m 41s):
No question. No doubt. No doubt. Well, cash is raining, dude. Whew. Cash is, they're passing out money. We decided we're gonna do a little, a little rapid fire of whether we'd buy or sell these, these companies. I'm going to go through them. Give just a little explanation. If you want to talk about a more in depth, that's fine.
Chad (12m 58s):
Joel (12m 59s):
But we can just kind of flow with us. So Syndio yes, who we've interviewed before.
Chad (13m 4s):
Joel (13m 5s):
Maria. Yeah. So they scored 17.1 million. For those that don't know they do real time pay equity. They have an analysis software to help equalize the pay structure and company. So Chad, buy or sell?
Chad (13m 21s):
This is a big, big, big buy because every organization who is touting pay equity, in most cases, they're doing it with spreadsheets, right? They're doing it with calculators and shit. They don't have tech to be able to integrate to, I mean, pretty much instantly tell you where your warning signs are. This is the platform, right? And all those old time organizations that are out there that you've been using for years where it takes a month for them to actually digest your data and get back to you. Guess what they should be partnering with Syndio, if not go direct.
Joel (14m 1s):
Yeah. That's a, it's a strong buy for me as well. Just for all the reasons that you talked about there. So our number, number two here, this is the big daddy in terms of the check that was written jobandtalent.com, horrible domain but we'll digress from that just nabbed $108 million. This company is largely European and they commit to find 'consistent work with renowned companies that enjoy professional stability in a contract environment.' So it's a gig platform basically, but they're really touting that they work with well-known companies. And there's some stability in these gigs that you're getting.
Joel (14m 43s):
It's not just, you know, drive Charlie to the airport and call it a day. These are sort of real, real job contract opportunities, $108 million dollars, buy or sell?
Chad (14m 53s):
Right out of the gate, Madrid based jobandtalent.com. Never heard of them. I thought, what the hell is this? And why so much cash? Then I dove into the actual tech process and it looks like they're actually getting the whole 1099 process, right. It's app based. And it's kind of like that Uber for jobs that we've been talking about for a while, these guys, it seems are on the right path, if not already have the infrastructure in place to build that. So I was tremendously surprised and doing research on these guys, and this is a big buy for me.
Joel (15m 30s):
All right. For me, frankly, I can't get past the name, Job and Talent. So for me, fuck it. I'm selling that shit.
Chad (15m 39s):
All right. All right.
Joel (15m 40s):
Let's go to a Swyg, which makes me kind of thirsty that's SWYG.com, it is the.com though. So hats off for that. They get 1.2 million in pre-seed money, which we both kind of scratched our head about pre-seed I guess that's family and friends round. I don't know for family and friends. Yeah. So these guys actively detect and correct for bias in interviews. They're also putting a human face and sort of going after chat bots and automation, their site says, quote, "you don't want to hire robots so why have a robot do the hiring?" Question, Mark? Hmm. Buy or sell?
Chad (16m 21s):
Sell. When I started researching this, it was like, okay. Yeah, this all sounds great. But how do you provide the data? How do you, I mean, none of it made sense until I dug into it. And this is a candidates interviewing other candidates with one-on-one video type of a platform. Yup. So overall, I, I think it's, it's a great, fuzzy, wonderful, fluffy idea, but I think this just falls flat.
Joel (16m 50s):
Yeah. So if you were to go back to 2002, which by the way was when the Browns last made the playoffs, this would have been a great company, but for 2021, yeah we're selling this turkey. All right, let's get to the last one. Another great name, Employee Navigator raises 34 million in growth equity financing. Now these guys are in the exciting business of benefits, compliance and HR software. 34 million for Employee Navigator. buy or sell? It's not exciting by any means, but this is infrastructure that you have to get right. You're talking about money. You're talking about benefits. You're talking about compliance.
Chad (17m 31s):
Yes. This is a buy.
Joel (17m 33s):
Yeah. Dammit. I hate these boring, successful companies. They suck. They suck. All right. That's been a, that's been our episode of buy or sell everybody. Let's see if I got a sound bite for that one. There you go. Okay. Let's get to some acquisitions that caught our attention.
Chad (17m 51s):
Yes. So we saw that jobsintheusa.com a network of state focused job boards was actually acquired by their CEO. So this was a managed, this is, was a management buyout. I had a chance to actually speak with Saeed and he was excited to have pretty much full control and all the reigns, obviously to drive his network of 400 plus sites forward.
Joel (18m 19s):
Good for Saeed, what a good guy.
Chad (18m 22s):
I think, I think this in itself, will be able to have this kind of opportunity to take something where you have a vision, but as CEO, you have to do pretty much what you're told.
Joel (18m 33s):
Chad (18m 34s):
And in this case, you are the CEO. You are the owner. Now you have the freedom. So I'm excited to see what, what they come up with.
Joel (18m 42s):
Was he at Monster?
Chad (18m 43s):
Joel (18m 44s):
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Speaking of URLs from the past jobsintheUS.com, that might be his first order of business has changed the name. So these guys are based out of like Maine or some weird, like a state you wouldn't normally think of, I think Maine or Connecticut or somewhere, they were bought by a newspaper conglomerate, I think 10, 10 years or so ago. And newspapers can't figure out job postings for the life of it. So why not sell it to the CEO? And by the way, when you sell to the CEO, there's not a lot of due diligence. They kind of know like what they're buying. So good for him for making that probably a seamless transaction.
Joel (19m 24s):
The newspaper gets to throw off some, some profit.
Chad (19m 27s):
Joel (19m 28s):
Wonder what he paid for it? He didn't tell you did he?
Chad (19m 31s):
Joel (19m 31s):
Okay. All right. Well, whatever, maybe next time. Over a few drinks, maybe he'll tell us what he paid for it. All right. There was another acquisition. This one really got our attention. One because we know these guys, the Moonlight, the Moonlighting guys pretty well, but it was also sort of strange. So Career Gig, a site that's less than a year old. I think they officially launched in July of 2020 acquired <oonlighting, who we've talked to at least once or twice a ten-year-old com or like an eight, seven, eight year old company. They raised $8.8 million 70 some employees, according to LinkedIn. Career Gig, brand new company, less than like a dozen employees, I think.
Joel (20m 12s):
So when you think about who would be the acquire of this, of this transaction, you would default to Moonlighting buying Career Gig, but that's not what happened. So something is a little bit weird about this one, but good for Moonlighting. If it's good for them, they're both really into the blockchain thing, which I know feels a little bit, 2019 or so, but they're both into that. So that's going to be something that they're going to build on. Any, any thoughts on the Career Gig, Moonlighting acquisition?
Chad (20m 44s):
Back and forth with Jeff Tennery, who was the CEO of Moonlighting? And I said, yeah. So what's up with the Moonlighting and this whole blockchain thing that we talked about a couple of years ago, and he said, yeah, the Moon bit is pretty much died in he, the SCC deaths. But, but yeah the portable blockchain verified resume, he believes still will disrupt screening companies and save hiring companies time and money. So, and freelancers will obviously get hired too. So it's that whole still conversation of trust in the blockchain itself. I think it's going to be incredible. It's going to be on the vendors, not to be able to have something that's complex, whether it's blockchain or not.
Chad (21m 30s):
It doesn't matter. It's kinda like we, we talked, we've talked about cloud computing way back in the day. Today just happens. Right. I don't give a shit how that happens. Tell me it's blockchain. It's verified. It's trusted. Great. That's all you have to tell me. I don't have to go through the entire process. Will they get there? That's the question?
Joel (21m 50s):
Yeah. I mean, we talk a lot about, you know, two dinosaurs cuddling up to stay warm when the nuclear winter hits. And this sort of feels a little bit like that. You know, the, the gig platforms are blowing up, right? Upwork's blown up Fiverr, Uber. Like all these companies are on the upswing because of the, the public markets and where the world is going. These guys are at least Moonlighting, Career Gigs, probably too new to sorta make that, that statement. But Moonlighting missed the window. They spent too much time on, on whatever Coinbase, whatever spun their wheels. And I think missed the window. And this is their fate.
Joel (22m 29s):
So I suspect Moonlighting will disappear in the next year. And Career Gig will sputter around for a while. Maybe get some money, but I don't think we'll, we'll be lighting the world on fire with this, this acquisition. We'll see,
Chad (22m 43s):
But you know, what's not going to disappear?
SOVREN (22m 54s):
Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry, the more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com, that's SOVREN.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner.
Chad (23m 19s):
You know who, I want to take the dinner? Actually, they should be taking us out to dinner.
Joel (23m 24s):
Chad (23m 24s):
Yeah, listeners, Kevin Kirkpatrick, who just took a new gig as the VP of Search Solution, but Optimum Talent and Jonathan Zhou who stepped into a VP of Sales role over at Jumpstart. Congrats guys, the beers are on you when we finally get the shots!
Joel (23m 45s):
By the way, speaking of Bitcoin, which we talked about briefly, I got a shout out for Red Balloon Security. Oh yes. So talk about your prescreening tests. Like they don't need no chat bots. So what these guys do is when someone wants to get a job at their company, they send you a little, a little puzzle kit with, if you, if you crack it open, if you hack it open, there's about $4,000 worth of Bitcoin. No, I did not say 4,000 Bitcoin. I said $4,000 worth of Bitcoin. So of the people that they send this out to that want a job at the company, roughly 1% can crack the challenge. And of course, those people get four grand in Bitcoin, but also they get a job.
Joel (24m 28s):
The CEO of the company says the money is well spent based on what other, you know, areas that we would spend money on. They do change the challenge pretty frequently. So you can't just go online and figure out the answer. So this is how one company does pre-screening and frankly, I salute them and they deserve a shout out for that's going the extra mile. That's totally a gangster Red Balloon Security, check it out, kids.
Chad (24m 53s):
In an article from Wired, it seems like Hirevue a leader, a leading provider of software for vetting job candidates based on an algorithmic assessment, said Tuesday, it is killing off a controversial feature of its software, analyzing a person's facial expressions in a video to discern certain characteristics. How did it take this long?
Joel (25m 20s):
It took a change in government to probably spur, spur everyone, to do this similar to how Twitter and Facebook realized they should bounce Trump off the platform because they realized that a democratic house, Congress and White House, and a Senate and White House are going to be in power. I keep going back to this privacy facial recognition shit as a governmental issue and state governments are coming after these companies, whether it be Illinois, we've talked about, we've talked about New York and New York continues to be on this a big time. And look, when, when governments get involved and you know, the Democrats are in power, like laws are going to be made.
Joel (26m 1s):
And when you have laws, guess what you have lawsuits. And the last thing any company wants is a lawsuit like HR exists to keep companies out of court. So the last thing they're going to do is like hire a vendor or pay money for a solution that could get them sued, which makes it very hard for companies to sell to a customer that doesn't want their product because they could end up in court, which means their job is in jeopardy. Because now the CEO is all pissed off that hiring practices got them, got them thrown into court. So Hirevue had to make some changes and which they've obviously done. They see the writing on the wall. And this is, this is, this is very foreboding for anyone in the facial recognition business, unless maybe your in security, maybe the government will overlook security issues.
Joel (26m 49s):
But yeah, if you're doing hiring where this is where bias and, and you know, racism, or, you know, run rampant, like facial recognition just does not, does not mix with that very well.
Chad (27m 1s):
Was about a year ago when Illinois actually put out the legislation to nix this shit? Not to mention, we continue to see how facial recognition doesn't work very well with individuals of color. And we already have enough discrimination as it is, but yet, but yet it took them this long to shut this shit down. I mean, that's the thing that bothers me the most. As somebody on the outside, looking in from an optic standpoint, if I'm the CEO, I shut that shit down quick, because I see from not just a diversity equity and inclusion standpoint, it's an issue, but it's also a justice issue.
Joel (27m 38s):
Chad (27m 39s):
So these guys shutting this down is a fucking layup a year ago, doing it now I look at them and say, what the fuck are you even thinking? Why even throw a press release or even let anybody know that you're shutting it down, do that shit quietly because you didn't do it fast enough.
Joel (27m 55s):
Yeah. It may be a bad sign for automation in general. So one of the story, Forbes writer, Forbes, or Fortune, I forget where we got this from. So Alex Angler, who's a fellow at the Brookings Institute, which is a left leaning think tank, if you will. He studied AI on hiring. He says the idea of using AI to determine someone's ability, whether it is based on video, audio or text is farfetched. He says that it is problematic that the public can not vet such claims. Quote "there are parts that machine learning can probably help with, but fully automated interviews where you're making inferences about job performance, that's terrible." He says, quote, "modern artificial intelligence can't make those inferences"
Joel (28m 39s):
Chad (28m 40s):
Yes, which is why New York City is proposing regulations against hiring algorithms, not just facial recognition, but hiring algorithms entirely. So this is another Wired article in 1964, the Civil Rights Act barred the humans who made hiring decisions from discriminating on the basis of sex or race. Now software often contributes to these hiring decisions, helping managers screen resumes, or interpret video interviews. So we talked to Ahena Karp from HiredScore just a few weeks ago. If you haven't heard that interview, go back, look for it. Those organizations are specializing in certain areas to ensure that bias does not creep in and they're doing that through constant auditing as well.
Chad (29m 31s):
But one thing that we have to do, and this is actually something that we talked about on the rack panel today is that none of this is a silver bullet. There's no thing as an easy button. So if you don't think that there's work involved, you just need to walk away from the table now.
Joel (29m 48s):
I want, I want to know where this rack panel is and how I can like be a part of it. Anyway. Yeah. So the story talks about HiredScore and Piametrics, which are, I think, both New York-based companies. I mean, my fear for them, and we both know Athena and Tyler Weeks who, our buddy from Intel is now at that company as well. So we feel very confident that they're doing the right thing and doing things that they need to do. My fear for them is similarly to how companies will just buy something, because it's on the checklist. Maybe it'd be a SEO, or maybe it'd be chat bots or programmatic. My fear is that there's going to be a list of things you don't buy no matter what. And if anything, that has algorithm, automation, you know, any of these words that companies think are going to get us thrown into court or get us sued.
Joel (30m 35s):
And just because you're on that list makes you a no buy. I fear that companies will get swept into that category. And that would be a shame for sure, but I fear that it could be the future.