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Nothing strikes fear into the hearts of employers or the vendors that service them quite like the threat of a lawsuit. These days, legal challenges and the opportunity to take a business to court are aplenty ... compliments of artificial intelligence. Whether it's an entire block of countries like the EU, or individual states like California and New York, the risk of new laws and regulations putting an organization at risk are higher than they've ever been. That's why we had to get Guru Sethupathy, co-founder and CEO at FairNow, a company that helps ensure your AI solutions are compliant and well-governed, on the show for a quick check-in not the current State of AI. Whether it's the UK adopting it’s own alternative approach to regulating AI, California's Safe and Secure Innovation for Frontier Artificial Intelligence Systems Act, NYC Local Law 144 or even India's latest regulations on hiring, we need a guru - yep, pun intended - to help us better understand what's going on. It's a must-listen if your hiring practices leverage AI or if your company provides such services to employers. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah. It's Dante's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always, the J to my silent Bob, Chad Sowash is in the house, and we welcome Guru Sethupathy, co-founder and CEO at FairNow Company, who helps companies ensure that their AI solutions are compliant and well-governed Guru, welcome to the podcast. [applause] Guru Sethupathy: Joel, Chad. Good to talk to you guys again. It's been a few months. How are you? Chad: It is now. Make sure that everybody understands, give us a little Twitter bio, but how long did it take you to actually get your name legally changed to Guru, and how long, is it gonna take to be able to get AI as your middle name? So Guru AI. Guru Sethupathy: That's what I'm working on. Chad: How long is that gonna take? Joel: I heard he's working on his doctorate in love so he could be Love Guru Sethupathy. No. Guru Sethupathy: Do you remember Mclovin from back in the day? Chad: How long is it gonna take us? Speaker 1: Mcguru is coming. Chad: So give us a little Twitter bio for all the listeners who didn't hear the last episode. You were on. Just little bit of love around Guru. Who is Guru. Guru Sethupathy: Thank You guys. Yeah, absolutely. So I am founder and CEO of FairNow. Basically like Joel said, we help companies, especially in the HR space, but other spaces as well. Everyone's talking about AI right now. Everyone's wanting to build AI, use AI, but as we all know, it's also a little risky. And so helping make sure that what you're putting out there is tested, it's compliant, it's fair, all of that kind of stuff. Joel: Look at you raining on the AI parade danger? Oh, no risk. No, don't say that. Guru Sethupathy: Not at all. Not at all. Chad: Now is, is Workday pounding down your door since they have a discrimination lawsuit right now? Guru Sethupathy: Man, that is a fascinating story. I don't know how many of your readers are familiar with this, but yeah. A year ago, a gentleman sued Workday. And apparently the situation was, he'd been rejected from dozens of job applicants that he'd applied for, and said, Hey, Workday was the common kind of filter in all these job applications. Now, what's interesting is a judge, just in January, throughout that lawsuit, not saying that, Workday was fair or not fair or biased, or was not adjudicating on that, but more like, Hey, what's Workday's role as part of the recruiting ecosystem here? They're not like actually a hiring company. But they've come back on February 20th, he refiled it, amended it, and so the lawsuit's back on. And so this is gonna be one of the big test cases, Chad, in terms of what's gonna happen in this space. And so we're all waiting to see what happens. Chad: Well, California, their first version of the regulations that they started pushing out actually had vendors on the hook. So I mean, do you see that actually as just kind of like the first draft and that'll fall away? Or do you think that vendors are actually going to be on the hook, the vendors and also the companies. Joel: And employers. Guru Sethupathy: I see both sides. Absolutely. And it's not just California. If you look at the EU AI Act, which is the big deal, I know we're gonna talk about that in a few minutes. Chad: Let's do it. Guru Sethupathy: But that one, New Jersey, New York State, California, all of them talk about both sides of the market. So Absolutely. Joel: Do you service mostly the employer side or the vendor side? Like who's coming to you? Is it both or just one? Obviously both will eventually start knocking on your door. But what is it right now? Guru Sethupathy: That's a good question because it's not what I would've guessed initially. 'Cause initially we went a little bit more after the employer side. Because of the New York City law and, other things. But who's actually been knocking on our door more? It's actually the vendors and here's why. Because they are getting [0:04:19.0] ____ questions from their customers. And what does a vendor care about? They care about selling to customers. And so if that's slowing down their sales cycle questions are slowing down their sales cycle, they're like, okay, we gotta find a way to answer these questions. So that's what's driving, the inbound right now. Chad: Yeah. Well that makes a hell of a lot of sense. So listen, listen, vendors, if you are fumbling and stumbling and bumbling over the answers around AI, you might wanna call a guy like Guru. But question here though, as we talked about Workday. They just acquired HiredScore who, Athena Karp, who you might know. She was amazing at explaining and defending what they were doing. So do you think this is almost like Workday's way of saying, okay, we need AI 'cause everybody's getting AI, so we need AI, but we need what everybody's calling, here we go kids, responsible AI. That's right. I used air quotes. Do you think that was pretty much like the bandaid? It's like, okay, we, can get this covered if we get Athena, her group, and people who actually know what the hell they're doing in here. Do you think that was it? Guru Sethupathy: I have a hunch. I think you're onto something there. I think both in terms of the AI journey. I think HiredScore has been around for a while And has been quite innovative in the space of AI. I actually haven't gone deep on their product with Athena, but I've talked to her about this. She and I have had multiple conversations about responsible AI. And I found her to be one of the more thoughtful peoples around this topic. So I would not be surprised if both from an AI roadmap HiredScore was attractive, but also kind of Athena and how she thinks about responsible AI, I'm sure was very attractive to working to her. Joel: Guru when you talk about these things, it's normally a big company, Workday, CVS, the little guys out there have to be freaking out. They don't have the resources to build responsible AI are you getting calls from them? And what is that conversation like? Guru Sethupathy: Again, it's about the vendor versus the the employer. So on the vendor side, we actually have small vendors. Who are customers, because again, they're trying to sell to big companies. And so big companies are like, who are you? And how do I know your shit isn't biased? So then they're like, all right, we gotta get through these sales cycle. So on the vendor side, it's big, small, medium, are all kind of, knocking on the door. Joel, on the employer side, you're right. It's the bigger companies because they're the ones who are more likely to get sued. If you're a small, medium sized company, you're like, yeah, I don't... I'm not gonna... [overlapping conversation] Joel: So are you priced for the smaller guys versus bigger vendors? Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're pricing, it's a combination of like, how many models do you have? How complex are your models? Those kinds of things. And so if you're a bigger vendor, you're probably gonna have a more complicated AI ecosystem. Chad: Well, Yeah. I mean, we just last Friday talked about how HireVue was an issue for CVS. So CVS is getting sued because of the use of the HireVue system. At least that's how it's... That's how it's drawn up. So if you're a company, well, first and foremost, if you're a HireVue, you gotta get your shit together. You gotta do it quick. But even more so, if you're a company, especially like a brand like CVS, you have to defend that brand. I mean, you have to, you have to be... Guru Sethupathy: You have to. Chad: You have to do it. And you have to be ahead of everybody else. Guru Sethupathy: That's right. Chad: Unfortunately, they were not. So are you seeing more companies being more thoughtful about, okay, we want to be able to, we have to introduce AI into the process. Because if we don't, we're gonna be left behind. So we have to be able to do it. We've gotta figure it out. But how do we get people in who actually know what the hell they're doing? Guru Sethupathy: So you covered a lot there. I want to hit on the Air Canada situation. Did you guys see that one? That's another good example. Chad: Yes. Joel: I didn't see that one. Guru Sethupathy: Where chatbot, So Joel, they had a chatbot that's basically a customer facing chatbot. And a customer asked them about their discount policies, and it made something up, basically. And so the customer then went ahead buying a ticket. Assuming that to be true. And then found out it wasn't. And it was like, wait a second, I was told explicitly, yeah, X, Y, Z and then Air Canada came back and was like, oh, no, no, no. That chatbot's a separate company like. Joel: Don't. Guru Sethupathy: And that's not, the judges rule that they were responsible and they're liable for that. So, these are the kinds of the trial and errors that we're gonna see a lot of where companies try things, they're gonna mess up. And then other companies are gonna be like, whoa, we gotta be careful here. So you're gonna see a lot of that. I think, but you're absolutely right. I think here, and this is one of the things we've started building into our platform. Is actual testing of chatbots, of LLMs, of GenAI, testing it for bias, testing it for hallucinations. Is it saying crazy stuff? Is it saying weird stuff? Like, we actually have some, capabilities to test around that. So you can test that out before you release it into the wild. Joel: I hope Google's listening after their recent, faux pas with. Guru Sethupathy: Gemini. Joel: Yeah. Gemini. Chad: That's not even a faux pas. You're asking for something and you didn't get what you want. So now you're bitching money. Joel: No, their QA was messed up. They should attest to that better. Chad: No, that's bullshit. Guru Sethupathy: That was very surprising, guys. Very, a company like Google. Chad: They're images. I mean, come on. This is a little bit different than actually outcomes and screwing somebody over because they were a female and they played softball and the AI saw that that happened. This is hurting somebody versus not hurting somebody. A little bit different. So let's talk about the actual regulations and the EU go figure is leading on this. So tell us what the EU is doing. Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. Not surprising in a way. Because the EU does operate in a more top-down fashion. It is gonna be like a multiple 100s of pages kind of legislation. They've been working on it for a while. So where we've landed since we last chatted, so back in December, there was an informal kind of agreement around the contours of the legislation. What's happening now, dribs and drabs of it have been released. And in April, I believe they're doing a final formal vote on it. And then I think 20 days after that, it goes into "effect." I put that in quotes because companies will have time. So it's kind of a lagged effect. You'll have six months to get certain things in order. You'll have a year to get kind of your bias testing in order. Guru Sethupathy: You'll have a year and a half or to two years to get your reporting infrastructure and governance layer in order. So there's different components to it, and there's different time lags to each of these things. But it's happening. It's happening. And the fines are huge. Up to 6% of your annual revenue. So this is not like the New York City law on any way, shape or form. The New York City law, I wrote a blog post on this, ended up having no teeth behind it. And part of it was the fine was $500 per, I mean, what, why am I buying? Exactly. And it was very narrow. It was focused on AEDTs, which are automated employment decisioning tools, for hiring and promotion, but only if it's automated, completely automated. Guru Sethupathy: So if you could easily come in and say, oh no, my human's in the loop. It's not automated and get around it. The EU AI act is much more broad. It even outlines kind of eight high risk areas of which guys, just so your audience knows, HR is one of the eight high risk areas. So HR is going to be in the crosshairs of this legislation. And very consistent. And I think California, New York State, others are going to have HR in the crosshairs as well. So I think HR, financial services and health are gonna be three of the domains that are gonna be in the crosshairs of all of the AI regulations going Forward. Joel: One of the things that you mentioned is the importance of upskilling. So in that time window companies should be preparing, building the skills internally. Like talk about how companies should view it upskilling as opposed to just maybe hiring a company like yours. Or should they do both? How do I prepare? Guru Sethupathy: They should do both. Because we're more of a platform company. We're a technology company. You're still gonna need humans in the loop. And making kind of really thoughtful decisions around risk, reward, trade-offs. The thing that I say is, look, at the end of the day, no one is trying to reduce risk down to zero. If you were trying to take risk down to zero, you'd never leave your bed. You'd never leave your house. So that's not how we operate. That's not how humans operate. That's not how businesses operate. But you need to know enough of the calculations to understand, okay, what's the risk of this technology? What's the reward? And are we comfortable with it? So you need both people at the junior levels who understand governance, but then you need senior stakeholders who really ultimately need to make these calls at a company wide level. Guru Sethupathy: What is our transparency policy? What is our red line? Let me give you an example. If you're thinking about something like predicting attrition at the individual level, a lot of companies have tried this. My teams have built stuff like this. It's a little bit minority report desk. If I can predict that Joel will leave his company with 70% probability, okay, what do I do with that information? Do I throw more money at him? Do I try to keep him? What if Chad's about to leave with 67%. What's the difference between 70? I mean, you start to get into situations where like, you don't know how to use these insights and what to do with it, and then people can start gaming it. So it's actually, there's a really interesting ecosystem around some of these insights around AI. And so that's where you have to, as a company, say, okay, we're not gonna use it for that purpose. It doesn't make sense. It's not gonna drive value and it's gonna break trust. So these are the really intricate conversations that you need to be having. But to do that, you need to have the talent that understands this at the detail level And at the philosophical level. And there needs to be upskilling. Chad: Well, let's talk about risk real quick. 'Cause I think this is the risk that companies are going to care about the most. If the Workday suit was brought in the EU, 6% of their global revenue equals $420 million for a Workday, that is a risk they care about, right? Guru Sethupathy: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there's two risks. I think that one, that's a pecuniary fine related risk. Now, I don't think it'll be that high. It'll be up to that amount and it'll be... But it'll be significant. But reputational risk matters. Like reputational risk matters, if you're losing customers or candidates because of some perception around how you treat your technology or how little you've tested it and those kinds of things. That one's a little harder to measure in terms of dollars, and cents, Chad. But it can add up to be even larger than that amount. Chad: Yeah. Especially from a revenue standpoint. I mean, it's not only the fine, but the perspective of lost revenue. I mean, optics. Guru Sethupathy: Lost revenue. Chad: Obviously it all factors in there. Now, as you were talking about some of the things that you're gonna have to do at the EU, like, evaluating the impact of AI. And then also ongoing, monitoring. What does, that even look like? Guru Sethupathy: So that's where kind of, we come in and help. Like, what does that look like? And when you're talking about ongoing monitoring, that's... If you're doing this manually, that ends up being, you need to hire like a big old data science team. And how many HR organizations have the capabilities to hire a big data science team. And then on top of that, they're gonna be like, wait a second. I thought you told me AI is gonna reduce my costs. Now I gotta go hire a big data science? So, this is where it gets tricky, but that's the beauty of kind of technology, like what we're building, where we can automate this. Like we have expertise in this. We've done this for many, many years. We know how to automate it. We know the ins and out, we know the details. And I think that can go a long way to helping companies, again, leverage the technology in a positive way, which again, I'm super bullish on. I think I shared this analogy with you guys last time. Like AI, like cars are an incredible technology. It transformed our societies, but at the same time, you gotta have breaks, you gotta have a dashboard, you gotta have rear view mirrors, otherwise, what are you driving? You're driving death mobile. So just put those things in place and then go fast. Joel: You talk about the EU, and as I listen to this, I realized how complicated and complex this is going to be, and I think about Europe. Yeah. Well, apparently the UK is gonna have their own sort of set of, AI regulations, talk about what they're doing and how it's different or what you expect them to do, and how it might be different from the EU and the US. Guru Sethupathy: I think part of it is, again, what one of the insights that we have is this is gonna be very patchworky. Each country and region and state is gonna have their own. In fact, they're kind of competing. I've talked to folks in various state offices who are like, oh, we gotta... What's that other state doing? Oh, what's that state doing? Well, we gotta... Exactly. So there's going to be that element of some competition amongst the regulators there. That being said, there is some common themes, and maybe that's what you're getting at Joel a little bit. The common themes are around, hey, you gotta evaluate and monitor your models. Like, that's just the thing. And especially on a couple of dimensions. One is, bias that always comes up. So evaluate bias. The other dimensions that come up are around hate, transparency and explainability. Guru Sethupathy: Can you explain what your model is doing? If it's a black box, that's kind of a problem. Especially in the hiring space and lending space, healthcare. Like these spaces, you can't just be like, oh yeah, we just rejected your loan. Good luck. We don't know why. Like, you can't, you can't do that. So things like bias explainability are gonna be really, really common in these legislations. And then when it comes to GenAI, you're talking things like data privacy and security. Can someone hack into your GenAI? There's all this stuff you guys are probably reading now, like poison attacks. I dunno if your audience has heard that, but that's where you kind of penetrate the system and basically inject it with kind of your own prompts and almost teach it to be a bad kid. And then you can do whatever, you can do nefarious things. So there's a lot of security related things, data privacy related things. And so you see kind of some of these common themes, across the different laws and legislations. Chad: And I think it makes it much harder because deep learning is a black box. And almost every case that's out there, if you take a look at some of these models, they're off learning by themselves. It wasn't something that was programmed. It was something that was a part of the process. Chad: The data that's entirely different. What data are they training off of? And I think that's where you get companies HiredScore, which was Smart Buy for a Workday, where they know exactly what their data sets are. They know exact. And that's the secret sauce. So from the standpoint of a lot of people are pointing to the AI piece, which I obviously that's going to be the output, the learning and output. But isn't the data just as if not more important in this whole scheme of things? Guru Sethupathy: It's more important. It's not even the same. It's more important. In fact, I don't know how much you follow the whole competition between Meta and Open AI and Google and all the, right, in terms of the foundation, one of the things you might be noticing is they're all converging. Their performances at least. And it's because the modeling techniques are known now. Amongst these top level data scientists at these organizations, they know what the best practices are. They know it's... Google published this famous paper called Attention Is All You Need, or something like that, which was a groundbreaking paper in this Gen AI space. And then other companies copied it. So a lot of that is not where you differentiate yourself, where you differentiate why everyone thinks eventually Google will get back on the right track and win this, is they have the most and best data out of anyone in the world. And so at the end of the day, we still expect Google to be at the top of this AI race. But to your point, that's what differentiates it. Your ability to know and have the best data and understand that data really well, and then be able to put it in a way that it's well governed. If you cannot make these mistakes, if you have amazing data and not make these mistakes, you're gonna be ahead of the game. Joel: America's unique in that it has a 50 state, set up to where everyone makes their own rules. Talk a little bit about the current state of, what certain states are doing. We've got California with SB 1047, New York Local Law 144. Anything else that we should be looking, into the future for different states doing unique things around AI? Chad: It's chaos. Guru Sethupathy: Absolutely. Chad: It's all chaos. Joel: It's cats and dogs living together. Guru Sethupathy: It's gonna be, each state's gonna have it. And that, imagine how complicated that's gonna be. But then again, our tax system is a little bit that. Each, you have a federal tax system and set up, and then each state has their own specific tax policies, tax rates, tax discounts for this thing versus that thing. And so you end up then building an ecosystem of people who specialize in that stuff. And that's what happens with regulation. Anytime you have a regulation, then you have an ecosystem of people, lawyers, and experts and consultants who then start specializing. So I expect that to be the case, Joel, here, where you're gonna have that regulatory ecosystem. So you have California, New York State is separate from the New York City local law Joel, so there's gonna, there is a New York State law as well. Maryland, is working on one right now. New Jersey has one. And then there's a bevy of other states. Massachusetts, Maine, Colorado has one that's focused on, it's fascinating, insurance companies right now. So that's a more targeted for the domain. The other ones that I mentioned, New York State, and California in particular are much broader. So that's gonna be the interesting piece, is some of these are gonna be quite broad, and some of them are gonna be domain specific. And so we're gonna see how that plays out. Joel: Similar taxes, we have local taxes, we have state taxes, and we have federal taxes. And the federal trumps all that. And we talked a little bit about politics in the green room. I was surprised to see the FCC come out with laws so quickly around robocalls. Joe Biden, famously recently called people, it wasn't him, but he was saying, don't vote. So. Chad: That was Dean Phillips, wasn't it? That was the other fucking Democrat. Guru Sethupathy: No, no, it wasn't him. It was someone on his campaign. It was someone who used to work for Dean. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: I'm sure there's stuff, we don't even know what's going on. But I was impressed to see the FCC move so fast to make this illegal, which tells me, and I commented recently that politicians are freaking out thinking that their voice could be out there saying, who knows what. So what's your take on the Feds coming down with, okay, everyone, here are the rules. All the states are gonna follow it. Are we gonna stay in this disparate state rules? Can the Fed come in and make sense of all this, in your opinion? Guru Sethupathy: I think it can on certain areas. And they have, if you saw the White House EO, I think that came out right around Halloween of 2023. There are a couple of areas where the federal government does have domain. And when it comes to things national security or things our democracy. That ends up being the federal government's domain. And it's actually concerning. And I think they moved fast because we are, we talked about this, Joel, we're in an election cycle right now. So it's not something they can wait six months to do. And you guys have seen it, this can be crazy. It's the voice stuff. It's also the image stuff. It's the videos. You can make anything now. And you saw Sora, have you guys played around with Sora? Which is, I mean, video... [laughter] Joel: Isn't that making movies. Or you can, yeah. Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. That's the one. And you can put people in there, you can put, I can put Chad in one of those movies and have him doing stuff he's never done. And in actuality. And so... Chad: No ideas, Cheeseman. Joel: I won't take the podcast, we got Guru on the show. I'm not gonna muddy it up. Don't worry. [laughter] Don't worry. Guru's too high class for that. Guru Sethupathy: So that stuff is now, and so I completely understand why they came in to try to curtail that right now. That being said, other things like, hey, how do you wanna govern software in the hiring space or the lending space? Now the thing is, there's already, so one other thing I do wanna say, and Keith talks about this a lot. There's already federal legislation involved in lending and in hiring and in health. We already have, there's rules already. So in hiring the EEOC, we have... There's this chapter, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, where you cannot be biased and it doesn't say humans can't be biased, or AI can be, it doesn't say anything. So you are... So already companies are absorbing that risk without really thinking about it. And so they should be proactively, instead of waiting for additional AI legislation, they should already be on top of this saying, hey, we need to know what's going on. Chad: We've talked about this, for... Shit. Years now with AI. It scales decision making. Joel: That's right. Chad: It scales bad decision making. It's not that humans haven't been making bad decisions. We have. It's not that humans haven't been biased. Oh, we're so biased. But now the AI is taking that bias behavioral data, some of those decisions some of the "predictors" that some of these companies use, and it's scaling it. So now if you are a company who got away with bias and all those things before, this is going to make all of that scale, and it's gonna make it much easier to identify who's fucking around. Guru Sethupathy: 100%. I think you're right on both of those accounts, it's much easier to scale bad biases and bad decision making. At the same time, it's also gonna be easier to sue. And I think that's where you were going with your second point, if I understood that correctly, in that it, you know exactly where the problem is. It's in that... [overlapping conversation] Chad: It'll be easier to see though, because it's gonna be the problem's not gonna be small because the scale was small. Guru Sethupathy: Exactly. Chad: Scale's gonna be much larger. So therefore the problem's gonna grow with the scale, and you're gonna... It's gonna be much easier to identify. So therefore you're gonna have more people pointing and saying, oh, look, there's a lawsuit. Guru Sethupathy: But I think all of that is true. I think you're more likely more... It's more gonna be more easy to sue, more easy to have a lawsuit. At the same time though, let me say, it's gonna be easier to monitor as well. Because that's what I'm gonna... My point being. When you have 50 different recruiters, and three of them aren't entering the data in the system, and six others, are... You know what I mean? It's just hard to know what's going on. [laughter] But with the model in place, it's actually easy to monitor and you can automate the monitoring. And the thing is, this has been going on for a while. I talked to you about Capital... We come from Capital One, Capital One monitors its models all constantly. It's not hard. And so HR just needs to build these practices in. They just need to have that mindset adjustment and say, hey, look, we're starting to become a technology domain, a data-driven domain. We need to then along with that, build these other practices in place. It's easier to monitor a model than it is 50 humans. Joel: Remote work, obviously in the last few years has become, incredibly popular. And we've seen sites that are platforms for managing, a diverse global workforce. The remotes, the oysters, the deals, etcetera. It seems to me recruiting on a global basis would open your company up to a lot of risk in terms of AI hiring. Going back to these different laws in different countries and states and all over the map. How confident are you that these platforms are covering companies' asses? Do you feel like companies are reluctant to go out on a global scale because of the risk? I'm just curious your thoughts on the global, state of things in AI recruiting. Guru Sethupathy: When you were talking about that made me just think of this thing that got passed in India. I don't know if you guys saw this recently, but any company that uses AI in India for anything has to get a federal approval, which is crazy to think about. Imagine something that passing here, it wouldn't. But that's a pretty onerous thing. So to your point, Joel, now, like, hey, what if you are using... What if you're a multinational company and you use AI in your hiring practices just generally. And India is one of your places. And wait a second now for India, I gotta go get special approval. And then from, so you're, so this is the thing that's gonna be hard to manage. It's like, and this is what I meant by like, you're gonna have to hire some policy folks, some lobbyists, you're gonna probably hire legal folks, compliance. You're gonna start to have this ecosystem of people to think about how these things affect you. And so that's gonna be a bit of a challenge. I totally agree. Chad: So if I'm a company, I'm out there, this is scaring the shit out of me. Go figure. I'm seeing, Workday, I'm seeing CVS, I'm seeing all these big brands that are getting thrown out all over the place. Is it feasible that I can do my business without even using AI? Especially when we're talking about hiring in a very competitive market? Guru Sethupathy: For a short time. For today, for tomorrow, for this next month, for this next year. And so at the end of the day, then it comes to how forward thinking are CHROs is what it comes down to. And if you are a short term operational CHRO, you're like, hey, that's not my problem. We're gonna be fine for this year. I'm focused on this year, I'm focused on this quarter, I gotta cut cost this quarter. So there's different types of CHROs that I've come across Chad, the ones that are strategic, visionary, forward thinking, absolutely not. They know AI. In fact, there's so many opportunities in HR. HR is the perfect domain, actually. There's so many opportunities to use Gen AI capabilities, natural language processing capabilities, predictive analytics capabilities. Guru Sethupathy: I was talking to a company the other day where they still have each recruiter manually at least check the resumes that come in. And apparently a 100,000 resume applicants last year. And I was just shocked. I'm like, really, in 2024, you know what I mean? That's just super inefficient. You can't compete, doing that. Again, you can do it for next week, you can do it for next quarter, but in 2025, 2026, how are you holding your cost down? How are you innovating? Things like, your employees, every single employee has a question about, I remember I had so many questions around vacation days, con policies, all of that stuff. You can automate all of that. There's so many opportunities. And this is, I think, some of the fun part of the conversation. Like, hey, how can you use AI to create value in HR? And there's really a lot of opportunities. So for the ones, the companies and the CHROs that are forward thinking, they're absolutely not gonna shy away from it. Joel: I keep coming back to your different... States different laws and how disparate this gets. Just curious about your industry. Typically, there's a Coke and a Pepsi, and then a bunch of Fantas and Dr. Peppers. Where does this go? Do we have local accountants where people are AI regulation experts in your local market? And it's a few people your State Farm agent. Is it a big... Are there a couple big players? And it's all software and we know all the answers in all the states in real time. Is it both of those things? How do you think this industry evolves from one of the pioneers? Guru Sethupathy: I think there's some parallels to... If you think about it, there's already compliance in HR related to hiring. Put aside AI and bias. I'm not talking about that. But when you hire, if I go hire in Canada, if I go hire in Europe, if I go hire in Asia, there are local laws that I have to follow to do that hiring. Compliance, all this stuff from how you interact with them to how you onboard them, the contracts, the pay, the salary, the level, all that stuff. And so you have these companies, payroll companies, that's how they got started. Was like, hey, you're gonna go hire over there, we'll help you. We'll deal with all the compliance. We'll take care of all that for you. And so in a sense, that's a little bit of what we're trying to do and others are gonna try to do as well, which is like, hey, we are going to become experts. One of the things we're partnering with law firms, for instance. And so we're gonna be experts on that stuff and take that off your plate and that's what, a Deel does. Or that's what a Dayforce. They take that off of your plate. And I think you're gonna see a little bit of that model, when it comes to AI regulations Joel. Chad: So in talking to our friend, a friend of the show, EEOC commissioner Sonderling, he had mentioned over a year ago that there's more than likely going to be an ISO around this, the international organization for standardizations. More than likely that's gonna be a standardization that everybody can flow into. So it's not so chaotic. And it seems we're on our way there. Can you talk about that a little bit? Guru Sethupathy: I can. I agree and I disagree. And so where I agree is, yeah, there's gonna be a standard, and it's here. I saw 42,001 was released late last year. Now it's still I think in the process of like, there could be some, amendments, some revisions and that thing. And there's still a process to be worked through there, but realize there's a difference between market standards and regulations. A market standard is great. It tells you that your product has a certain level of quality, certain level of certification that you can't take for granted. A regulation is still, like, I still got, even if I have the standard, I still gotta go satisfy that regulation if I don't wanna get fined. If I don't wanna get... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Doesn't this make it easier for regulators though, to be able to take a look at a standard and say, okay, that's the standard we're gonna get behind that. You have to do that. So it makes it much easier for a bunch of individuals, a bunch of 80-year-old individuals who they don't know a smartphone, they've got a jitterbug phone. They don't have a smartphone. So at the end of the day, is this not a smart way to just say, oh, wait a minute, those guys seem to have their shit pulled together. Let's just go ahead and jump on that train. Guru Sethupathy: There's absolutely truth to that. And in fact, a lot of the private sector companies are pushing for that. They're saying, hey guys, White House, whatever, let's develop market standards. Let's have public private partnership. Let's work together and let's develop these standards and let those standards be the things that provide the common ground around this stuff. And there's some truth to that. If you look at the White House EEO, again, the White House... What the EEO says is they put the NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology, in charge of developing some of those standards. So if you look at it in the US, that's our approach. Now, look, the states at the end of the day are gonna do their own thing. So the White House can't govern that. But from a White House perspective, I do think, other than things related to national security, which are very important. And they own the domain around that. But otherwise they, that's what they're saying, Chad. They're saying, hey, let's this, let's build some standards. NIST, you kind of, we give you power to run with this, work with private sector, work with others, and develop standards and let's go with that. So I think there's absolutely some truth to that. Joel: That is Guru Sethupathy. Everybody... Chad: There he is. Joel: Guru, for our listeners that want to know more about you, maybe they can keep up with some of this stuff. Where would you send them to learn more? Guru Sethupathy: Couple sources, follow me on LinkedIn, follow FairNow on LinkedIn. We're both... Myself, my account, FairNow's account. We're publishing a lot on these topics whenever there is, whether it's a lawsuit, whether there's a company that put out something that we think we disagree with or agree with, or laws and legislations as we've been talking about, we'll be posting on there. So please follow us as well as our website. So we have a whole area where we talk specifically about legislations, about market standards, and we talk about what's coming down the pipe and what's in these things. The EU AI Act. We have a whole page on who's affected, what's gonna happen and all that stuff. So between those two spaces, you should be able to learn a lot. Joel: Long story short, Guru's a busy guy. [laughter] Chad: The Chad and Cheese podcast has a bat phone to Guru, okay? So you can always listen to us. But yes, definitely go to FairNow. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. Thanks for keeping us up to Speed Guru. This is a complicated issue, Chad, that's another one in the can. We out? Chad: We out. [applause] Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chat, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue nacho, pepper Jack, Swiss, so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who. We try to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese, is so weird. We out.

Join us on "The Chad and Cheese Podcast" for a lively and enlightening conversation with Natalie Stones, the founder of Talent Collective. In this episode, titled "Unleashing Talent: The Natalie Stones Interview," we delve into Natalie's passion for talent acquisition, her journey from corporate recruiting to building a thriving community for women in recruiting, and her adventures in fractional recruiting. Natalie shares her insights on AI in recruiting, the challenges of unbiased hiring, and the current trends in talent acquisition. We also discuss the changing landscape of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, the rise of fractional work and its impact on women, and the evolving dynamics of the workforce post-pandemic. Don't miss Natalie's candid thoughts on LinkedIn and the role of recruiting technology in shaping the future of talent acquisition. Tune in for an episode packed with humor, snark, and thought-provoking discussions that redefine the world of recruiting. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It is Bob Hope's favorite podcast, AKA, The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joined as always, the Woodstock to my Snoopy, Chad Sowash is on the house. We are live at TA Week at the Qualifi booth... Chad: Yes. Joel: And we are giddy to welcome Natalie Stones. There's an "S" at the end like Rolling... Natalie Stones: Rolling Stones? Joel: Founder at Talent Collective. Natalie, welcome to the podcast. Natalie Stones: Thank you so much. Good morning. Joel: So... Chad: Good morning. Joel: A lot Of our listeners don't know who you are. Chad: Oh, what? Joel: Give us a Twitter bio about what makes Natalie tick. Natalie Stones: Well, what makes me tick is talent acquisition. Chad: Oh stop it. Intro: I live it, I breathe it... [laughter] Joel: Come on. We want poetry reading. We want walks on the beach... Natalie Stones: Wine tasting is definitely, yeah. Chad: Oh, there it is. Okay. Intro: Red or White? Natalie Stones: Red. Joel: Okay. Chad: There we go. Natalie Stones: Love me some Pinot Noir... Joel: Oh yes. Natalie Stones: I live in San Francisco, Napa wine country, all that thing. But who am I? I am a woman in recruiting. I've been doing it for about 20 years both agency side and in-house corporate recruiting, head-of-talent roles. And now I run a community for women, and I do fractional recruiting. And I get to do what I want, when I want. Chad: [chuckle] "I get to do what I want. She does what she wants." [laughter] [overlapping conversation] Natalie Stones: And create it how I want it. Joel: Is that a song from the '90s? Chad: I love it. [laughter] Joel: Somewhere in there. Natalie Stones: You said Twitter bio. Like, what can I fit in that short amount of time? Chad: Well you just did, so you're good. That's very good. That's very good. Natalie Stones: Done. Period. Chad: Let's talk about that. So in recruiting and now you have built this community, you're building this community. It's not built. You've got much to do, right? Natalie Stones: Yes. Yeah. Chad: How did you go from one to the next? How do you go from recruiting, corporate recruiting, to building a community? And why? Give me the why first. Why did you think this was necessary? Joel: What's your why? Chad: What's your why? [laughter] Natalie Stones: Two very specific reasons. I don't know how crass I can be on this, or if I can say bad words. [overlapping conversation] Chad: Very, yeah, of course. Yeah. Joel: As nasty as you want to be. We're like the two live crew of recruiting podcasts. [laughter] Natalie Stones: Number one, I was so fucking tired of being laid off. In the past three years I was laid off twice, and I was like, "Man, how... " This economy's just getting worse and worse and worse. I need a community. I need more people to connect with that are in TA. Hopefully that'll help me find my next job. I couldn't find the right conferences to go to where I didn't feel like, "Okay, TA's just a subset of HR." Chad: So everybody says LinkedIn's the answer. LinkedIn's not the answer. Natalie Stones: No. [laughter] Natalie Stones: I don't use LinkedIn anymore. Chad: Okay. Okay. Natalie Stones: Actually I use RecruitBot, right behind us here. So a little plug for RecruitBot. So we wanted to create something that didn't exist for ourselves, opportunities to network, get back out there post-COVID. We wanted programming that was very hyper-specific to... Chad: Yes. Natalie Stones: Recruiting, recruiting operations. We wanted to geek out about it all day. And then we wanted to create more mentorship opportunities and ways for people to collaborate. So... Chad: When you say "we," you mean women? Natalie Stones: Yes. My two co-founders and I... Chad: Yes. Natalie Stones: We were very passionate about it. But we created it specifically for women... Chad: Yes. Natalie Stones: Women+, so those who identify. But the second reason we started it is because there's so many freaking communities out there that are ran by men. No offense, we love them. [laughter] Natalie Stones: They are our male allies. They are a part of our community as speakers, panelists, contributors, partners. So they definitely play an important part in what we do. But when you look at all of the other communities side-by-side, I can't really find one that is... Joel: What's the mission of the organization? Natalie Stones: To empower, advance, and connect women in talent acquisition specifically... Joel: Okay. Natalie Stones: And we do that in the three different ways: Networking, professional development, and the mentorship. Joel: And what's membership numbers? Is there a threshold to get into the organization? Talk about that. Natalie Stones: We launched June of last year. So we're in month seven. In the Bay Area, we started as a beta test, and we now are at a little over 270 members globally, with the most being in California right now 'cause that's where we are, and then the other half across the US. And we have since launched other local communities, San Francisco, LA, Seattle. We have Orange County tomorrow. And then I'll tell you about the other ones later. But really the threshold there isn't. It's just you're a woman, and you're in talent acquisition. Joel: And benefits are? Natalie Stones: So you get the opportunity to be a part of our circle platform, bunch of resources, partner discounts. We have four to five workshops a month. We have in-person networking events, in-person speaker events. We have our partner experiences. Last night we hosted a TA leader dinner. We have boardroom peer groups, and we have mentorship programs. And that's part of our standard; we call it our "essential membership." But we also have an executive level 1. So if you're a director-level and above, then you get the amplified experiences, different exclusive events that you get invited to. Chad: What if you're on the track to be one of those, right? Because not everybody is a director; not everybody, but they could aspire to be that one day. Are there tracks to be able to get there? And I know you guys are really early in the inception. Natalie Stones: Yes, we will do that. Thank you for the idea. [laughter] Natalie Stones: No, we don't have formal tracks yet. But as part of our essential membership, we have recruiting coordinators that are in there, sourcers... And we make sure to curate the virtual experiences to make sure that it's content that could be relevant. Throughout the month, we want there to be a topic that is RecOps-focused, a staffing topic for our agency people... Chad: Right. Natalie Stones: Something that's for more junior talent, and then something that's just more of a generalist topic. So no formal track, but we try to make sure we have something for everybody throughout the month. [overlapping conversation] Chad: Okay. So how are you guys monetizing to be able to feed this? Because this is gonna take a lot of fuel to be able to get enrolled. Joel: And are you looking to be a 501-C-3 or another... Natalie Stones: Yes. Joel: Oh, okay. Natalie Stones: Yeah, we are. We're actually in the process of filing all of that right now. But early on we made a first-time founder mistake, and we started [chuckle] hosting our in-person events with the light membership dues that we had. Every single time we were running negative. So we're like, "Okay, we can't do this," but we still need to have these experiences. So we're monetizing by having partnerships with other recruiting technology companies, recruiting firms, HR tech. And so they help us co-host these events. Other things that we're gonna do is we have a partner directory. So any of these partners that wanna be featured on our platform, they pay a cost to be on the platform. We also are co-writing content with people. So mostly right now is sponsors and partners, and content collaboration. Chad: Gotcha, gotcha. Natalie Stones: In the early days, but more to come on that. Joel: In terms of conversations that the group is having, what's trending? What's the hot topics? Natalie Stones: What do you think it is? Chad: Pay equity. Pay equity. Joel: That's a trap question... [laughter] Joel: That I'm not touching whatsoever. Natalie Stones: As a non-woman in recruiting, what do you think it is? [laughter] Yeah, pay equity is one... Chad: Yeah? Natalie Stones: But it's actually not the most common one. Chad: What about leadership positions? I mean, what? Is it like 8% of Fortune 500 companies have a female CEO? Natalie Stones: Yeah. Chad: I mean, there are plenty of topics that we could talk about that should be burning topics, which... [overlapping conversation] Joel: But she's on the inside. Chad: Yes, exactly. Joel: She knows what they are. [laughter] Chad: I know, which is... Joel: And she's gonna reveal them now. Natalie Stones: Yeah. It's really like... [chuckle] Well okay, number one, is AI in recruiting. Everybody's in a frenzy about that. What is it about... Chad: Which is great from a vendor standpoint, because you can get a lot of vendors to be able to get into this community. Right? And then, again, this is an educational scenario. I mean, this is good on both sides for vendors to be able to help educate, but also for, obviously, the community to learn. Natalie Stones: The value for us in having these partners is less about the financial donation. It's about bringing the innovation to the community so that they are constantly in the know of all the technology, the innovation. 'Cause not every tool is right for every company or stage or size or person. And so having these innovative conversations and topics, is big. So AI is one. At the leadership level, they're talking more about, how do we strategically in the future hire back TA teams? Will we ever need full-time recruiting teams again? Or what about fractional? Fractional recruiting is a thing. Could there be a benefit to scaling up and down your recruiting team as you need it, as your business grows? Seasonality? So that's actually a big, big one right now. Chad: You sound like an RPO right now. [laughter] Natalie Stones: Well, we do also have Talent Refinery, which is a fractional recruiting firm. So a little plug for that on the side. But other things, yes, pay equity is a very important one. And another one, I think we're just at the most basic level right now, where just so many of our members are laid off because of the economy. We're really talking about how to create more opportunities for each other, how to partner on roles, how to make introductions to get a role to pick up a project. So a lot of it is about work and staying relevant as a recruiter right now... Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: But more will come, the more that we have more female voices and passionate things that they're excited about talking about. Joel: So I didn't answer your question, but I'm gonna tell you what I'm surprised that you didn't say in your answer. Chad and I almost weekly or at least monthly, talk about the demise of DEI, whether it's companies pulling back funding, laying off leaders, in the DEI movement. You didn't say any of that in terms of a concern with your members. But what are your thoughts on the trend of MeToo, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd? "We're going the right direction, it looks like we've backed up." Your thoughts? Natalie Stones: So what we see in recruiting is, it was like this trend and this wave. And then once everyone was doing it, then how does anyone remain relevant with their DEI initiatives without making it very specific thing that we're trying to put out there? Like having good perks and benefits, and everybody's having the snacks and the dogs at the office. Everybody's now doing the same thing, so how does anyone really diversify themselves as a DEI employer of choice? So I think what you're seeing is a lot of companies now are, if you aren't really going to make a concerted effort to continue to maintain DEI initiatives, or if you were just doing it as a trending initiative, then stop. Don't do it anymore. Because then you're not being authentic with it, and it's just becoming a thing to do because everyone else is doing it. So I think that's why you see some companies backing up with it, because they don't wanna be out there as, "Okay, we're doing what everyone else is doing." Instead, let's just focus on DEI initiatives that are important to us without having to make it a marketing-campaign type of thing. So I don't think it's going away. I think the buzz around it is demising a little bit, because it became a very big marketing thing. Chad: So to kinda like fight back a little bit on that one... Natalie Stones: Yeah. Let's fight. Chad: Before when there were marketing budgets, right? There were marketing budgets. They weren't diversity budgets, right? Natalie Stones: Yes. Chad: You had CDOs that were put in place that had no staff, they had no budget. Right? Now, this is when people were "focused" on it, right? To actually do the right thing. Which we all know is bullshit in many cases. Facebook spending millions of dollars and getting almost a bump. At the end of the day, if there's no pressure, then nothing happens. Right? So I agree with you a hundred percent. There was a smoke screen out there for years that we called DEI. Natalie Stones: Yes. Chad: And we put people in place that had no power, that had no resources. But the question is, how do we pivot into something that does matter, it is meaningful, without having an emphasis on it at all? Natalie Stones: I think what we're seeing evolve from that is unbiased hiring, right? How do we just unbiasedly consider all talent based on just purely skills and qualifications? Less on, okay, do these hires tick this box based on this diversity category? Like in my last role, we were an agency, and we really focused on unbiased hiring, but we would get a lot of clients that would say, "We only wanna hire women, so only send us panels of people that are women or a certain ethnicity," so on and so forth. And we said, "We don't do that," because we feel that's reverse diversity. Well, what about the other people that don't meet that category that are qualified for your role? So instead, we will go through an unbiased exercise. We'll present you the right talent panel, and you can choose who you want. So I think what we're seeing more, at least within our community, is how do we just create an unbiased hiring experience that could help amplify diversity without focusing on, "We need to get X more amount of whatever category that is?" I hope that answers your question. Chad: It does, but it's really hard because a lot of, let's say for instance, females who wanna be CEOs. Natalie Stones: Yeah. Chad: They don't have the standard requirements. Right? So therefore they're not qualified, 'cause they're not getting the opportunities. Right? And if you take a look at some of the statistics, to be able to get where we need to be with parity, it's gonna take 75 years. Do you think we have that long? I don't. So how do we... Natalie Stones: I think I'll be dead by then. Chad: Yeah. I know I will be. But at the end of the day, how do we make this happen without being too crazy, reverse discrimination, discrimination, whatever it is... Problem is, we're not fixing what's been broke. How do we fix that? And in your community, I would say, could be a good cornerstone to some of this. Natalie Stones: Yes. Yeah. I think, like you guys were saying, you're trying to help amplify female voices. So I can only speak to the female perspective. But having allies and people that are not from our diverse category, helping advocate for us and amplify our voices, making the right introductions, is kind of the only best right answer that I have right now. But we're trying to do everything we can to elevate the confidence level of women in recruiting specifically, trying to give them as much professional development opportunity to help them grow. And then creating that mentorship so that maybe they're getting access to more of those connections. So that's the only best solution that I have right now. Joel: Clearly no easy answer to that question. Natalie Stones: No. Chad: No. If it was easy, we would have this get fixed already, right? Yeah. [overlapping conversation] Natalie Stones: It would already be done. Yeah. Joel: I'm gonna give you another one that I'm surprised you didn't bring up in terms of trending... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Here we go again. Joel: Trending topics. So the pandemic, we know, is an imbalance of stress on women, which typically the burden of childcare goes to them. And the work-from-home movement seemed to be something that was a very big positive for women. Natalie Stones: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You see more and more stories about return to office, get back to work, and that impacting women in a negative way for sure. Is that being discussed? Your thoughts on work-from-home and companies that maybe don't consider... Run by men. [laughter] Joel: Consider the impact on women, in return to the office. Is that a topic that you guys discuss or have a opinion on? Natalie Stones: It is. And it's more like the TA leaders trying to really have concerted conversations with their stakeholders in their companies, to help them understand, really good talent is gonna be self-accountable at home, man, woman, otherwise. And so why can't we continue to have work from home? We do talk about the impact that it has on women, specifically because myself and Krista, we are single moms, and we run two businesses, and the way that we've created the opportunity for ourselves is creating our own business. Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: But not everybody can do that. Not everybody has the right access, community support, financial means, whatever. And so we really try to have conversations about, how do you advocate for yourself to push back, and/or not accept opportunities just purely because you like the company or whatnot? But does that meet your personal means? Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: I actually heard last night, someone was telling me that there's this new, I don't know if it's a movement, but there's this new concept of both parents going part-time. Let's say you're not a single parent. Both parents working part-time. Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: So that no one is off-balanced on the burden of work or the burden of at home. So they're trying to create these equal opportunities, where instead of one person not working and losing one full salary, how do we both work part-time to support the family and support your career? So I was like, "Hmm, interesting." First time I heard that. [overlapping conversation] Joel: I heard a story this week on the rise of part-time jobs. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And maybe that syncs up with what she's saying. [overlapping conversation] Natalie Stones: I need to look into that. Chad: So try working part-time and living in San Diego. [laughter] Natalie Stones: You'll be at the beach all the time. Joel: Or anywhere in California... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Not to mention... I mean, you have... I mean, here in the US. I think that's a little bit easier in Europe, because they have healthcare. Here, the way it's tied to a full-time position, right? So those are great ideas. But again, I think for some people who have the means to be able to do that, they can do that. But unfortunately, the ones who can't, they just, they don't have the availability to keep a roof over their head, food in their kid's mouths, so yeah. Natalie Stones: Yeah. The one thing that was part of that topic was, then you do away with the entire daycare expense. So that helps that family save on the cost of that. But kind of to finish answering your comment on that, what we actually are discussing the most is, so many women want to be their own decision makers. They wanna be their own bosses. They wanna have creative control of the work that they do. So many of them in our community are becoming fractional. They just wanna be solopreneurs, have a lifestyle business enough to maintain the life that they want, but still getting to pick-and-choose like standing up their own business so they become their own boss, pick and choosing the types of work that they work on... Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: And so they're amplifying themselves by taking it into their own hands. Chad: It's almost like gigs. You're fractional... Yeah, you're working gigs. Yeah. Natalie Stones: Yep. Joel: Yeah. Curious about... We're here at TA Week, we're in the exhibit hall, and there are a lot of companies on the vendor side who preach unbiased recruiting. You see sites like Fairygodboss or InHerSight that are specifically for women. You mentioned quitting LinkedIn, so feel free to expound upon that. [laughter] Joel: Are vendors, in your perspective, getting it right? Are they moving in the right direction? Or is a lot of false promises that you're seeing? Natalie Stones: I think vendors are getting it right. I think where the hesitation is, is actually on the user. Because we are still in an era where there's a variety of different generations that are used to hiring a certain way. "Please email me over the resumes. I wanna look at the resumes." And then they scroll the bottom to see, when did they graduate, or the gaps, or whatever. And so while the vendors are doing a great job to create the unbiased user experience, I think there's still a lot of resistance to it. And so there's not as much adoption as we would hope, because they still... Their brain, their muscle memories still wired to like, "I wanna see it all, I wanna know who this candidate is," and then they make their biased impressions. Chad: Well, I think you take a look at the tech stacks that are being built today. And I would say in the very near future, they're not gonna have that opportunity. The amount of scale that we see today with regards to the amount of people who can apply, and then the new apply bots that are out there, there have to be technologies that go ahead and filter out according to the requirements of the job. Right? And then allow that recruiter at some point to actually have access. So hopefully we're getting past that. And not to mention, a lot of those recruiters who've been doing the old school 1990s way of recruiting, they're not gonna last. They're gonna be gone. And the new breed will definitely take over. Natalie Stones: Not only based on generationally they're gonna be working out of the workforce, but they will also maybe not become as relevant, to your point. Chad: Yes. Natalie Stones: I feel that same way about AI. I don't think AI is going to replace recruiters, but the recruiters that don't choose to adopt that into their effective processes will become kind of dismal. Joel: I'm sorry... Natalie Stones: That's my take. [overlapping conversation] Joel: I tried to serve it up, but LinkedIn, what's up? [laughter] Joel: Is it a... Why? Natalie Stones: It's so damn expensive. Chad: Okay, all right. Natalie Stones: Gosh, you can't ever get out of the contracts. Why do I need to pay 2500... I don't even know what it costs anymore. For a license, when I can still find these same people on my own? So I'll give another plug for RecruitBot. I work on a free LinkedIn account. I don't even have to use it. They have all of the content that you can source in there. The AI will then tee up additional candidates based on how you're qualifying them. I can then put them through my emails campaign. There's a CRM piece, and then I can status them with kind of the ATS. Why do I never need to go outside? [overlapping conversation] Joel: I was like I'm morally opposed to the... Natalie Stones: I mean, sure. Joel: The Death Star that is LinkedIn, so... [laughter] [overlapping conversation] Natalie Stones: Yeah, the... Chad: There's that, there's that. Joel: So yeah. Price... Natalie Stones: The Death Star, yeah. Joel: Pricing's a little less sexy. But it is an answer that a lot of people give us. Natalie, thanks for hanging out with us today. Natalie Stones: Thank you. Joel: For our listeners that wanna know more about you and the organization, where do you send them? Natalie Stones: To talentcollective.community. That's our website. Chad: There you have it. Joel: Dot-community? That might be the first dot-community on the podcast. Natalie Stones: Yeah. It was available so I took it. Joel: We appreciate that. Chad: Dot-community. Joel: Dot-community... Natalie Stones: Exactly. So spell it all out. Joel: Slash-UK-dot-co or something. [laughter] Joel: Chad, another one in the can. Progress baby, we out. Chad: We out. Natalie Stones: Thank you. Outro: Well, thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast. With Chad. With Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses, and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grub cheese. It's so weird. We out.

The last time Chad & Cheese welcomed Jeff "The Job Board Doctor" Chasey-Dickens to the podcast, chaos ensued as Cheese's Four Horsemen of the job board apocalypse rode wild in a healthy debate on the future of job boards. This time, the doc brings his own flavor of death and destruction he sees for the job board industry, dubbed Unholy Trinity. Three isn't as much as four, but the despair is no less frightening. If you're a job board owner or employee, it's a must listen.

As usual, this week, Chad & Cheese dive into the latest news and developments in the HR and technology sectors, featuring updates on Deel, Klarna's AI integration, Google's data deal with Stack Overflow, and lots more. Drink it in: DEEL's Acquisition Spree: We start with Deel, the HR startup making waves with its recent acquisition of African-based PaySpace, following last week's purchase of Zavvy. This marks Deel's largest acquisition yet, as it aims to strengthen its presence in Africa and reach $500M in annual recurring revenue, with plans for an IPO in 2025/2026. ZipRecruiter and Appcast's Pricing Changes: While Deel celebrates its growth, others like ZipRecruiter are facing scrutiny for a nearly 74% price hike without clear additional value. Meanwhile, Appcast is transitioning its business model away from supporting customers below the $20K/mo. spend, raising questions about its strategy and impact on agencies. Klarna's Efficiency with AI: Klarna's partnership with OpenAI has resulted in significant efficiency improvements, with its chatbot managing two-thirds of customer service chats in 23 markets and 35 languages. The integration is expected to increase profits by $40 million in 2024, raising questions about the impact on recruiting. Google's Data Deal with Stack Overflow: Google's Gemini chatbot will now utilize Stack Overflow's Q&A for coding assistance, marking Stack Overflow's first customer for paid access to content used to train AI chatbots. This deal could have significant commercial implications for Stack Overflow. Indeed's Missteps: Finally, we touch on Indeed's recent controversies, including a disappointing Willy Wonka chocolate factory experience and a racist job ad that was posted on the platform. These incidents raise questions about Indeed's oversight and use of AI in job postings. It's enough to make you forget politics, global conflict and the increase in prices at Chipotle. You're welcome. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who are not quite ready to start cutting interest rates. What's up kids? You are listening to the Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel on the road again Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad flock off Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, it's Deal's world, we're all just renting space. Indeed's new Oompa-Loompa job search category. Let's do this. It's been a week, Chad. It's been a week. Chad: It doesn't feel like... Joel: I can use some Vegas time. I don't know about you. Chad: Yeah, I definitely feel some Vegas time. Yes. Vegas. Joel: You need Europe soon. I could... Like you're almost on peak, ready to get the hell out of the US. Chad: Yeah. This, I mean, it's a obviously an election year. That makes it worse. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, yeah. 'Cause all of the stupidity just gets compounded and it's just like, oh, gimme the fuck. Cow gone. Take me away. Get me the fuck outta here. [laughter] Joel: So this just drops it out, if you saw this. Netflix is going to air a boxing match. Have you seen this? Chad: Uh-uh. Joel: Any guesses on who's fighting? Chad: I have no clue. I have no clue. Joel: All right. Old guy, Mike Tyson. Chad: Yes. Okay. Joel: Versus Jake Paul in a boxing match. Live on Netflix. I, for one am here for it. I, for one. [laughter] Chad: So this is not like a premium, you have to pay additional for it. Is that what I'm hearing? Joel: If you have Netflix... Chad: Okay. Joel: You can... It's on. And, to me, this is the future of like live events because anyone in the world that has Netflix can watch it. It may be 4:00 in the morning in Malaysia or whatever, but when it airs, you don't need the local CBS, you know, affiliate. You can watch it anywhere. And for me, like YouTube and Netflix are probably the only two companies that have like a global anyone-can-watch-when-it's-on thing. And I think this is where, you know, sports and live events are going. So kudos to Netflix. I think it's pretty cool. I know, I'm gonna watch. And you'll probably watch too. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And knowing our listeners, they're all gonna watch as well. Chad: Okay. So I remember Flat Blast from the past. I remember, I think it was 1990. It had to been, 1990 when Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson. I was on the beach in Panama going through scuba diver training. Joel: Scuba diving. Chad: Scuba diver, training and it was a... I can remember it so vividly, 'cause I remember watching Mike Tyson up through high school, just batter and obliterate motherfuckers. And this guy comes outta nowhere from Columbus, Ohio and takes down Mike Tyson. I just thought that that was amazing. Joel: Tyson was the most awesome, until that moment, the most awesome boxer I had ever seen. Chad: Yeah. If you wanna see the best fight of all time, go watch Hagler, Hearns. That was probably the best, the best, I think two or three rounds of a fight [laughter] that you can get. Joel: Yeah. There's some good ones. There's some great, great boxing matches. Oh, we're so goddamn old. Chad: Oh, we are. Here we go. I'm going. I'm going. I'm gone. I gotta do this. I gotta do it. Are we ready? Joel: I'm ready. Chad: Okay. So this is a shout out to the dumb ass of the week after last week's idiot CEO at Wendy's pitched surge pricing. I mean, dynamic food pricing. This week eight... WK Kellogg's, CEO, Gary Pilnick earns the dumb ass of the weak monitor. Just watch. Speaker 4: When you think about our consumer under pressure, there's things that we could do, but most importantly, what this category could do, the cereal category has always been quite affordable, and it tends to be a great destination when consumers are under pressure. So some of the things that we're doing is first messaging. We gotta reach the consumer where they are. So we're advertising about cereal for dinner. If you think about the cost of cereal for a family versus what they might otherwise do, that's gonna be much more affordable. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad: So, while CEOs, boards and c-suite wages have skyrocketed, and people actually doing the fucking work, can't keep up with their bills, the dumb ass of the week, Gary here sees a perfect, a perfect let 'em eat cake moments. Right? Let 'em eat cereal. I mean, how fucking tone-deaf is that? While that motherfucker's having Wagyu beef three times a damn day, [laughter] it's okay that the peasant labor class is having to, you know, have his version of gruel for dinner. I just, it, this is happening every single week. And [laughter] I just don't get it, man. Joel: Where are the PR firms coming from that are advising these food companies, look... Chad: Fired, I hope. Joel: I mean, you know, I gave a better answer, I think than probably the most PR firms is like, they should have... The Wendy's thing should have been, we're gonna have pricing higher at lunchtime, but we're gonna give it back to the workers because that's when they worked the hard. Chad: They didn't intend for that, though. Joel: That would've been a great spin, right? For this move. Chad: If it's true. Joel: This move reminded me of, and as we're dating ourselves, you've obviously seen the movie Mr. Mom. Chad: Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. Joel: So, Mr. Mom, Teri Garr gets a job, which back in the day, that was, that was crazy that a woman could have an executive job. And they're selling tuna, and her thing is like, look, times are hard, we're gonna reduce the price of tuna, and when things get better, we'll go back to our old prices. But for now, we're in this together. You remember this, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: You've seen this movie. He gets little flags out and everything. Like Mr. Mom would've been a better guide for this decision than any PR firm in New York would've been. Chad: Tone deaf. Joel: And they do the, it's just like, it's such a slam dunk to compare this, to let them eat cake, that I can't believe these people with MBAs and degrees from Ivy Leagues don't put those pieces together and think this is probably a dumb thing to say. Chad: They're living an entirely different life than the rest of the world. That's the problem. Joel: Yeah. They're tone deaf. Chad: That's the problem. They're in the ivory tower, they're seeing the sunshine, you know, all that other fun stuff. And then there are the peasants in the fucking mud. And they're like... Joel: You know this fucker hasn't eaten a Froot Loop in his life, and he's telling us to eat it for dinner. Chad: Yes. Yes. Joel: All right. All right. Okay. My shout out to getting off the food thing, 'cause it's lunchtime as usual. And I'm gonna be really hangry at the end of the show if we keep up with food. So I'm gonna give a shout out to Craigslist. Chad: Okay. Joel: Yeah. That's something we don't, don't do a whole lot on the show, but AIM Group, which we do mention quite a bit on the show, they've been, analyzing Craigslist for 20 years. They go in, they know what the cost of a job posting is because it's really transparent, and they count up how many jobs, and they give a pretty good estimate about where Craigslist is in terms of how much it makes, because Craigslist is this black box. It's a private company. It's just really mysterious. Chad: Yep. Joel: So they try to uncover the dollars around this. So they just came out with their new analysis of Craigslist. So the headline or the subtext is, "Craigslist is still the number one general classified site in the US, but the dinosaur may be slowly headed to extinction." So revenue for Craigslist peaked in 2018... Chad: It's like a billion. Joel: Which is quite a long time from when it started, right? Like, it took a long time to get to a billion. That was 2018 it 'em 2 billion. Today it's about a third of that in terms of revenue, which is still a lot of money. They have about 500 employees. Their expenses is 15%. So they've got a little bit of margin of profit there in what they're doing. Chad: Yeah. Joel: In 2023, they generated the majority of the revenue as they always have with jobs, which was 40%. So that was $58 million in revenue from that. So it is slowly dying. We see a lot of competition, obviously, but it's just fun to occasionally go back to the days of Craigslist launch in '95. It was a newsletter thingy really, before the internet was a thing. Craig Newmark is this weird hippie guy. I went to go to LinkedIn to look at, for information. There's no logo. They have that like building icon like we do, because we don't have a page, that's Craigslist. This is a billion dollar at one point company. No real official LinkedIn page. It's still a mystery, but thanks to AIM Group for making some sense of it. Shout out to them as usual. Chad: Yeah. And I think, I mean, Craigslist, if you take a look at it, is really almost like a microcosm of a lot of these job sites. It was a lifestyle business, it was, and it exploded. They've embraced tech debt. They've, I mean, it's just like's one of those things like simplicity is working, when this thing dies one day, we'll all be millionaires anyway, so who gives a fuck? Right? So it's, to me, yeah, awesome. Joel: Yeah. If my math is right, every employee is bringing in "a million plus dollars". So they're doing all right. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And when they were making a billion dollars, they were doing really, really all right. Yeah, this nonprofit in San Francisco in their Birkenstocks. Chad: Oh, I love it. Joel: And their sweat socks are doing all right. Chad: I love it. Joel: Yeah. Craigslist is still trucking just like Monster and CareerBuilder, they're the walking dead among us and just getting more deader all the time. But I'd like, I like some of the death in my bank account. [laughter] Chad: Joel wanting some job board into his... Joel: Yeah. I want some job board with my Froot Loops. SFX: Shout out. Chad: I've got one. I've got a shout out to Hybrid. Joel: Okay. Bring it. Chad: So I was forwarded a head of talent acquisition job posting on LinkedIn this week from a company named Hybrid. So a TA executive sent it to me and said, hey, here's a job for another talent acquisition, you know, head of talent Acquisition at this company named Hybrid. It was an on-site only job. So... [laughter] Chad: I don't... [laughter] Chad: The irony behind something like that it's like, ooh, Hybrid. Welcome to hybrid. Okay, what days can I go home? You can't. We've got a, you can set up over here. We got a little bunk, you know, we got bunk beds or more time for activities. So yes, shout out to Hybrid for not being so hybrid. Joel: I love it. And I love good irony, which is why I'm wearing my Nikki Haley For President t-shirt today. Chad: Yes. Joel: Speaking of, of dead campaigns, Chad and the walking dead with Craigslist, you probably saw that LinkedIn was down this week, and not that kind of down. Chad: Recruiters went fucking crazy. Joel: They went nuts. They went nuts. So it was, it was down for about an hour and a half. It follows a Meta crash and Instagram, which was, was worse, which also followed an a, an AT&T down downage. So... SFX: That was big. Joel: Bring on the conspiracy theories now, because Twitter's still up and TikTok is still up. So do with that what you will conspiracy theorist. But I felt like the shout out really goes to the people on Twitter and the socials who sounded off about LinkedIn going down. So here's just a, here's just a piece of what some of the, some of the Internet's famous said. So ChristineKK94 said, "LinkedIn bros already rehearsing their, 'I'm honored to be back,' speeches for tomorrow like they just survived a digital apocalypse." Joel: Liam, LiamKillingStad tweeted, "It's crazy how LinkedIn is down, but PornHub is still working. At least that's what I heard." And our friends, our friends at HireEasy, Chad... Chad: Yes. Joel: Did not miss an opportunity to stick it to LinkedIn. They tweeted, "With LinkedIn down, it's the perfect time to embrace modern tech, to message candidates," promoting its AI email generator for recruiters products. So shout out to them for taking an opportunity to market their stuff while LinkedIn was down. Chad: Kick kick 'em. Joel: Kick 'em when they're down, Chad. Chad: Kick 'em when they're down. That's what I'm talking about. Joel: Kick 'em when they're down. Chad: That's what I'm talking about. Joel: That's right. But who's not getting kicked, Chad? Chad: The people who want free stuff, because... Joel: The free stuff. Chad: This week, and I'm gonna let the cat out of the back here, kids. This week we've been going back and forths, semi arguing about what design's gonna go on the front of the t-shirt. Okay? We've been having fun with it. There have been like 20 different iterations. So I gotta give Joel big props for that, 'cause he's been going back and forth with the designers. But our friends at Aaron app. I actually have a sticker on my, that little sloth guy. He's a cute little guy. They're our new t-shirt sponsor. So be looking for those to come out here. And any event, at any event soon. Beer, again, you gotta go to free. You gotta go Chadcheese.com/free. Register for all this stuff. Beer by Aspen Tech Labs. Whiskey by Textkernel. Get two bottles of whiskey. One from Joel, one from me. And then if it's your birthday, you know, you want a little rum from Plum or at least register to win some rum from Plum. SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? Joel: That's right. That's right. You know what that sound means? SFX: I know I can. I can feel it all the way down to my plums. Joel: Oh yeah. So celebrating another trip around the sun, I put in two weeks because we're gonna be in Vegas next week. Chad: Okay. Joel: So the list is a little bit long, so bear with me here. Chad: Okay. Joel: We got Iron Mike Schaeffer from Factory Fix, celebrating... Chad: Nice. Joel: Another birthday. Ashley Collins. Barb Francilo, Michael de Aloya, I always can never pronounce that. Mel Skasdden, Robert Williams, Tracy Morris. Jeffrey Wagner, Beat Michael Mueller. It's Beat or Beat, he's foreign. Chad: Beat. Joel: But it's Michael Jackson, Beat It, Michael Mueller. Bill Fanning, our friend, David Altman, James Cleaver, Ryan Gibbons, Remington Hampton. That's a cool name. John Middleton, Deb Ender Chuck, Leanne Chase, Dean DeCosta. Amanda Hon, Ryan Estes, Bruce Gee, Craig Watson. Chad: Wow. Joel: Down under. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And Kip Kyle Hager is celebrating another trip around the sun. So happy birthday everybody, happy birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Happy birthday. Chad: Oh geez. Well, hopefully we'll see some of those guys as we're at events. As we'd said next week, we're going to be at Transform, but then we're going to Europe. That's right. You know, synthesizers, you know, the Europeans love 'em. We're gonna be at the E-Recruitment Congress in Amsterdam, March 19th, full day in Amsterdam, dedicated to presentations and knowledge around the AI shift in recruitment and technology. We're looking forward to it. I don't know, I think it might actually be full up. I don't, not sure that there are any seats left, but just in case, go to Chadcheese.com/events. You can look to see if you can register there. You might get the last couple of, couple of seats. Joel: And I'd be remiss without mentioning, Chad, that it is the beginning of the month, which means we're gonna get our monthly report from the Feds about the job market, which means it's another episode with the Sasquatch of Statistics. Toby Dayton from Linkup is gonna hook up with you, 'cause I'm gonna be on a plane, I think en route to look over the numbers which come out tomorrow as you're listening to this. So make sure you tune into that. Only on YouTube, youtube.com/atChadCheese. Tune in. Chad: There it is. Joel: And subscribe and like, and share. SFX: Stop it! [music] Joel: All right. Chad, are you ready some, ready for some news from Africa. All right. HR startup Deel is acquiring African-based PaySpace. Its largest acquisition yet, although terms were not disclosed. That's following last week's purchase of Zavvy which we've talked about. PaySpace serves 14,000-plus customers across 44 countries, including major brands. Deel made the deal, get it? Sorry, I... Chad: Again, two weeks in a row. Joel: Yeah, it's too easy. As it aims to strengthen its presence in Africa, while it reaches 500 million, that's up from 400 million in ARR with plans for an IPO in 2025 or '26. Chad, your thoughts on one of the greatest songs, frankly, of all time... Chad: Thank you. Yes. Joel: As well as the news. The news out of Deel. Chad: Never get enough total. Africa is a huge growth market. I mean, not to mention PaySpace services over 14,000 clients in 44 countries across Europe, PaySpace is perfect for Deel, which is a global EOR, employer record company looking to pick up some great tech services anchor to a growth market, and is moving quickly to, that's right, kids, HCM, the human capital management platform side of the house. So when they go from EOR to HCM, that opens up Deel's total addressable market making Deel a global workforce HCM, along with the EOR services that they provide. How many HCM providers actually do EOR today themselves? That's native to their platform? I can't think of any off the top of my head. So I think this is big for Deel. ADP's revenue in 2023 was 18 billion. I mean, I love the subtle flex, not so subtle flex of adding $100 million... Joel: Hundred million. [laughter] Chad: To your ARR because it's just a few weeks ago we were talking about, oh, holy shit, they've got 400 million in ARR, that's pretty fucking awesome. And then a few weeks later they're like, oh, no, I'm sorry about that, [chuckle] yeah, we did, we forgot to carry a one. That's 500 million, right? So subtle flex, but there's great opportunity not just from an EOR standpoint, but opening up and really starting to, you know, take, maybe take some of the, not just the ADP revenues, but the Ripplings. There are tons and tons of big whales out there that don't have quite new tech. I mean, Rippling not one of those. They're pretty new, but there's great opportunity. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. It's big. SFX: What are you doing step bro? Joel: Chad, I'm running out of adjectives for Deel, frankly. You know, the world at large has NVIDIA, these guys might be our NVIDIA at the moment. You mentioned Rippling. There was a whole flock of these, that we talked about extensively, Remote, Oyster, et cetera. Chad: Flockitys, is that what you said? Flockity? [laughter] Joel: Any metric that's publicly available says that Deel is crushing all of these guys. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Rippling may be the closest to it, but, it's just an impressive onslaught of deals and growth that Deel is dropping on our community. I can't wait for the IPO. We're gonna talk about that a lot, obviously. [laughter] Joel: It could be the damn break. I mean, to me, this is like the next Indeed, this is the next Workday, this is the next LinkedIn. Like I think we're gonna be talking about these guys as the 800-pound gorilla in that category. And we're watching it unfold, in front of our eyes. So unless this is some like Enron level bullshit fraud, that's gonna take us all off our... Chad: Don't say that. Don't say that. Joel: No accusations. I'm just saying, unless this is like, what the hell was that? They pulled it on all of us. These guys are crushing it. Just a few numbers for you. In terms of hiring, their sales department is up 170%, in a year. Their project management is up 702% headcount on the year. Their engineering is up 328%, biz dev, the guys that make the sales, the guys, the gals doing the real work, 632% growth in the year. Look at their competition and it's nothing, no. Double digit growth is good. Oyster is shrinking like Oyster, we might as well just disregard. They might be an acquisition for Deel next to get them to a billion ARR, I don't know. Long story short, I'm running out of adjectives. They need to like slow down because I can't keep up. Joel: It's a lot of fun covering these guys. And by the way, who's doing shit in Africa? Real, like, we hardly ever talk about that. Like these guys are so large, these guys are making shit happen so aggressively. Like they're talking Africa, they're gonna talk... Antarctica. They're gonna be growing into, pretty soon. They're gonna be launching Antarctica Deel any minute now, I'm sure. But yeah, this is fun to watch. It's exciting. It's fun. I can't wait till they go public and we have public numbers to see actually what's going on and, really, really have some fun with it. Because talking about ZipRecruiter stock is a little boring, Chad. It's a little bit of a downer in my opinion. Anyway. Chad: Yes. Joel: Speaking of downers, let's go to our next story, 'cause I'm, I'm running out of words for Deel. Chad: Which is, a ZipRecruiter, and this is somewhat of a downer, especially if you are a client of ZipRecruiter. This next one comes from a friend of the show, Tim Sackett, where Tim writes, "Hello Chad and Cheese," no, just kidding... Joel: Hey, dip shits. Chad: ZipRecruiter. Yeah. Hey, assholes. "ZipRecruiter came out today and is asking for price increases for current clients. Our current contract is roughly $92,000. And to keep the exact same products, they now want roughly $160,000. They aren't even a top source for us. So we'll be saying goodbye." So Joel, is this really time for an increase? Joel: Well, if you do it right, anytime can be a time for an increase. [laughter] Chad: Oh, so should they have done surge pricing? Is that what I'm hearing? Joel: Well, I'm surging right now after talking about Deel. There's price increases and there's like desperation price increases. Like, you gotta know how to boil the frog, right? You gotta know how to do it at a degree at a time. Look, Netflix is great at this. Netflix is a great service. But over time, like before you know it, you're not paying 7.99 a month anymore. You're paying 14.99, and you're like, what the hell happened? But it didn't hurt, so like you keep doing it and pretty soon before you know it, you're paying 29 a month. And if they keep having Mike Tyson fight, it might be 99 bucks a month. But this reeks of stupidity, you don't just drop 73% increase or whatever it is on, your customers. And I'm guessing Sackett had been a customer for a really long time. Chad: He had to have been. Joel: I'm guessing. Yeah. So like, let's take one of our, let's take a customer that's been around forever, that is a figurehead in the industry that a lot of people know and let's stick him with a big price increase. And now he's gonna cancel and not come back and tell all his recruiting buddies like ZipRecruiter is full of shit. And then they're gonna think twice about using ZipRecruiter. I don't know how you walk back from this. It's kind of tough. We talked about their quarterly earnings recently, like, life is not great at ZipRecruiter and this is gonna make it a lot worse. Like, you gotta learn how to boil the frog. I mean, as much as we love Indeed, right? They stuck the price increase in the terms of service. Like the new thing made it look, did it right, At least. And before you know it, you're spending a lot more at Indeed than you would otherwise. But it doesn't feel like it because they didn't put a 73% increase on you overnight. So bad move, another bad move in the many bad moves that we talk about from ZipRecruiter on a regular basis. Chad: So if you take a look at it, same product, almost double the price, at least Indeed is trying to fake giving more value, with the new price increases. I mean, we all know it's bullshit, but they're trying to fake it, right? We'll see if that actually passes. But we say it all the time, The SMB market is a bitch. It it is. And that's where Zip that's where they, earned their bones, man was on the SMB side of the house. Zip entered the enterprise market way too late. Bigger accounts, less transactional and more sustainable, right? Expanding the total addressable market just isn't that easy, especially when you're going after it this way. Chad: Not to mention they were spending much like, and this is very reminiscent of Monster, CareerBuilder, Indeed spending loads of money on Super Bowl commercials for that SMB market to try to drive those single postings, those small job packs and whatnot. But that was more on the transactional side. Spending that kind of money is just not sustainable. Now, Zip didn't do Super Bowl commercials, but they were the biggest, and I don't know if they currently are, they were the biggest spender in podcast advertising across the globe, right? So again, to be able to meet the SMB market, you have to spend tons of cash 'cause you have to be on the top of minds of those small businesses. 'Cause they don't need you every day. Right? Enterprise need you every fucking day so that they, went kind of backwards at it. So this is, it's kicking their ass right now. Joel: In many ways and I know I've said this before, but they're a victim of their own success. They did such a good job of we're for the small guy, we're for that bar owner down the street that, you went to school with, that trying to pivot into enterprise, go public, try to be bigger than what you are, has bit them in the ass. And, yeah, if they're giving these price increases to Sackett, I can't imagine what, the bar guy down the street is thinking about the price increases. Chad: Yeah. When I was at Monster, 75% of the revenue that we actually received was from staffing company. And Tim's a staffing company, right? Yep. So I guarantee you what they're trying to do, okay, let me knock on wood. What I think they're trying to do is they're trying to juice the staffing company. Joel: Stick it to 'em? Chad: Yeah. They're trying to juice the staffing company, say, hey look, they can't live without us, so we're gonna make them pay. Well, I think what they're gonna find is that they can probably, live without you. Joel: It's good for Indeed. SFX: 60% of the time it works, every time. Joel: Well, let's go ahead and let's talk about another big name. Appcast. So a TA leader who is an avid listener and Appcast client sent me the following message from his Appcast representative, "With the acquisition of Bayard last year, we, Appcast, are currently rolling out some changes to our business model. Currently, we are transitioning away from supporting customers below a $20,000 per month spend." Whew. "With an end of March target date." So Joel, what would the response be from you if you received a message like this from your representative. SFX: Take off will ya we're doin' our movie! Don't wreck our show, you hoser! Joel: Look at what they do, not what they say. Chris Forman, CEO, founder, Appcast was on a charm offensive when they acquired Bayard saying nothing's going to change, it's all good. We love agencies, blah, blah, blah. And then you see stuff like this that says, you know what? We just want big companies with agency dollars to be our clients. And what it says to me is they're becoming competition for the shakers, the NASs, the Braden C's of the world. And if those folks aren't thinking about plan B and C, which I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they have, but they definitely should because Appcast is coming for them, period. And that's what this move says to me. Chad: So, story time. Years ago, when I was in radio advertising, I would have prospective advertisers with smaller budgets that I would have to turn down because the budget would be enough to run one 30-second commercial in drive time for the entire month. Right? And that in itself is not gonna give you the sales and/or brand expectations, brand awareness expectations that you wanted. So I would introduce them to some of our sister stations who could help them, right? With their budget size. Unlike ZipRecruiter, Appcast understands their total addressable market. That's what I'm seeing here. So, is that a bad thing? Zip is all over the place and it seems like Appcast is literally just trying to focus and be more disciplined. So, what I don't agree with is the way in which this Appcast representative handled the situation. So, I assure you Appcast does not, I repeat, does not want to be the new most hated brand in the industry. I'm sure they'd rather allow that to just stay with Indeed, right? Or in this case, ZipRecruiter. Appcast and Bayard, who know who they are, they are enterprise. And as what we talked about before, that's not a bad thing. But in the journey, they can't tell clients to save money by eating cornflakes and spending that cash with them, right? Chad: I mean, it's like, yeah, we'll just spend less over here and spend more with us. So, they're going to, and I think this is good for some of the smaller agencies, they'll be able to pick up some of those portfolios that just kind of like fall away. If they're spending $15,000 a month and they don't qualify, that's still $180,000 a year, right? That's not a bad size client. But I think, again, the difference between ZipRecruiter, who, they have no discipline. They have no fucking clue what they're doing. They are all over the place. In this case, it really feels like Appcast is trying to tighten things up. They're trying to focus. And the only way that you can do that is to have some of these very, very hard decisions. Joel: I'm not saying it's a bad decision. It's the 80/20 rule, right? It's 20% of your clients are 80% of your headaches in most cases. In most cases, those are the smaller clients where you're their only... Chad: Sometimes. Joel: You're the only game in town. You're all they're doing. They are focused on what you're doing for them. Whereas the big companies, they give money to a lot of people. They're a lot less of a headache. So I'm not saying it's a bad business decision. I think it's probably a great business decision. I just think that it's a shot over the bow of every agency that App... You need to think twice about Appcast being your programmatic solution of choice for your clients. That's all I'm saying. Chad: Well, I think this is literally Appcast targeting in on Rad agency, right? And saying, look, you guys are enterprise, we're gonna take you down, our tech's better. We've got Baird now we're, I mean, go after the the big fish, the big whale, right? Joel: Sure. But there aren't many agencies that cater to the little guy. Chad: I Mean, little guy we're talking about close to $200,000 a year, right? I mean, yeah, depending on what your scale of little guy is, it's a good market. So, yeah, I think. Joel: Sure is. And if you can take those branding dollars and those job posting dollars and, and, and it becomes a really good business, and that's what Appcast is doing. They're cutting away from the little guys that aren't like big picture, big dollars and they're focusing on the ones that are. So it's good for them. I just think it's a warning to everybody else. Chad: And again, back to my analogy, if they don't feel like they can do what they need to be able to do from an expectation standpoint for that client, it's better that I push you off to somebody else who can actually give you what you need. Joel: Do you think they should have a product for those little guys? Chad: Maybe one day, but right now they're being focused and they're being disciplined. And I really like that. I like that they're doing that. So at the end of the day, sales needs to tighten up. They need to be more diplomats than strong arming perspective clients to get them from 15,000 to 20,000 or whatever it is, right? Because that seemed more like a strong arm tactic email than anything else. But when I talked to, Appcast you know, again, you gotta own it, you gotta know who you are. And I gotta say, I kind of dig it. Joel: You Know where this is leading, Chad? Chad: Uh-oh. Joel: This is leading to that StepStone acquisition of CareerBuilder and Monster to where they have that US footprint. Chad: No. No. Joel: And they're gonna send all the little guys... Chad: No. Joel: To Monster and CareerBuilder, which they'll own for the little deals and they'll take the big deals. Chad: No. Joel: I'm telling you, Chad, I'm telling you I see it. The writing is on the wall. SFX: 60% of the time it works, everytime time. Joel: We'll be back. All right, Chad, what a great first block. We have a lot to live up to after that one. All right. Let's talk about, a recent headline from Fast Company that reads, "Klarna says it's AI assistant does the work of 700 people after it laid off 700 people." A Fortune headline reads, "Klarna froze hiring because of AI. Now it says it's chatbot does the work of 700 full-time staff." After partnering with OpenAI, Klarna has seen significant efficiency in its customer service interactions, which is likely to influence other companies around the world to follow their lead. And I think that's probably gonna be a bad thing for recruiting, but maybe we'll unfold that. Chad, what are your thoughts on Klarna's 700? Chad: So yesterday I spent 20 minutes on hold, right? And I did that 'cause I wanted to, talk to a human being customer service rep because I've used these chatbots and I've used chat on customer service for a few years now. And I don't like it, 'cause it doesn't give me what I want and what I need. I will be async on chat with a service rep for hours, hours. When I wait for 20 minutes. I know I can get on with a human being. I can generally get that taken care of within 45 minutes, right? So yes, I see this as in some cases an opportunity to be able to replace some repetitive types of positions. But the real question is why is Klarna doing this? Chad: I mean, they could easily just cut heads slowly without filling those positions and still find themselves in this situation without risking the, we like robots over people optics, 'cause that that's what they're looking for here. They're pushing for these types of optics. So why risk bad optics? I think it comes to these three letters. They're your favorite three letters, Joel Cheesman, IPO. They are trying to make a ton of splash in the media with these numbers because they want to go IPO and they want to go big. So we will have to set expectations that any jobs that are routine and repeatable are obviously at risk. Okay? That's gonna happen. But at the end of the day, these guys care more about going IPO and their bank account than any of that shit. And I mean, that's what this feels to me. Every time I hear anything about these guys, they're always pushing toward that 700, 700, 700 and go, oh, wait a minute, what are we looking to do? Oh, IPO. Okay, that makes sense. Perfect sense. Joel: Did you say IPO? SFX: I'm happy. [laughter] Joel: I agree with you. I think historically, automated customer service blows. Push one for, push two for Spanish, one for English, okay. Especially with a digital phone. And so, are you, you wanna check your balance, press one, you want, like that's an awful experience. But if you had a voice that sounded like a human and I could talk to and I didn't know the difference, maybe a little bit of nuance, here and there, which will probably be cleared up at some point. Like, I'd be okay. Just like job seekers posting, giving their resume to a company and doing a chatbot as opposed to the black hole, that's a good thing. So here's some numbers, from the story. So the bot is managing two-thirds of customer service chats, roughly 2.3 million conversations, 23 markets and 35 languages. So the bots can speak any language and apparently they're getting better about what your accent is, what region of Germany you're from. Chad: No, it'll get better. Yeah, it will. Joel: Like it gets better around there. Okay. Chad: It will. Joel: The integration is expected to increase profits by $40 million in 2024, the company said. The chatbot's efficiency has resulted in fewer errors, a 25% decrease in repeat inquiries and reduced average conversation times from 11 minutes to two minutes. So I've not talked to this bot, but at least metric wise it's better. So if companies can eliminate headcount and make the customer service experience better, everyone's going to do it. And that's the bottom line of this. Any public... Look, this is the year of efficiency. We keep talking about it. Zuckerberg proof that you can fire 20 million people or 20,000 people and your stock is going to go through the roof because you become more efficient. Joel: Twitter by still being up or X as Meta crashes and LinkedIn goes down just proves that you can cut 80% of your developer staff and you're still up, right? This is going to bleed into companies all over the place, laying off customer service, laying off sales staff because automation is the way of the future. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying this is the way that it is and this is going to impact recruiting. It's going to impact hiring. There's no doubt about it. And how fast it happens and how big of a breath that happens on a global scale, we don't know, but we're going to talk about more and more companies that are doing these kinds of things. We talked about, was it the Indian company a year ago laying off 90% of their customer service? Chad: Yeah. Joel: And that was probably some hack job, whatever automated system. This is ChatGPT integrated. Now if you listen to the All-In podcast, a more popular podcast of four really rich technical guys, they talk about this extensively. So if you want to know more and kind of their take on it, listen to what they said. But it's, any tech company is going to want to create efficiencies like this and would love to cut their customer service if they could, as well as their staff and marketing and everybody else. Chad: I do agree. The Facebook thing though, you got to stop using that. That's such a fucking red herring. 'Cause they killed VR, they killed VR and they were bloated. I mean, so they actually just, all they did was they were doing business very irresponsibly for a long time and then they're like, oh, we're going to be responsible. So what you're saying is total bullshit. It's a red herring. It doesn't make sense because they were doing bad business. Now they're doing better business. Joel: But we agree this will be a trend. We'll be talking about more of these stories. Chad: It's already a trend because we had tech bloat in the first place. So, I mean, that's what happens. It's called a cycle. Joel: Well, there's bloat and there is replacing the bloat with bots, which is different. Chad: Yeah. Well, in this case, no question, like anything that's routine, repeatable, I mean, that in itself these, this is OpenAI by the way. And they actually they partner with OpenAI about this. This is what's gonna happen. And we've talked about this on other podcasts too, is that AI is a commodity, period, right? This is all about training the AI. So you get a company like Klarna who is going all in on AI very quickly. The reason being is they know if they train it, AI is like a puppy, it's going to piss on the carpet. You got to train it. So it doesn't have stupid responses. And the next thing you know, it's doing just as well, if not better than humans. If you have it co-pilot a human, then the humans also teaching it the best responses. So, I mean, there are many models that are in place right now, but OpenAI, Gemini, Perplexity, Anthropic, some of these big names, I think they're going to be the ones that win. Joel: They, the guys on the All-In said that, wouldn't it be interesting if they made this an open-source and made it available sort of to everybody to build onto, that would be interesting. They also made a prediction. You'll find this interesting if you haven't heard. They're predicting at some point we will have a one-person unicorn or a single person will build a company around AI and automation and create a billion dollar company. Chad: The reason being is they will hype it and fund it. Joel: Well, they'll fund it. Yeah. [laughter] Chad: All four of those fuck sticks, all four of those fuck sticks will, they will fund it, they will hype it. I mean, it's just, okay. I mean, so what? So what? Joel: All right. Sticking with high tech. Stack Overflow has secured its first customer, Google, for paid access to content used to train AI chatbots. The deal allows Google's Gemini chatbot to utilize Stack Overflow's Q and A for coding assistance. Terms of the deal were not disclosed, but Stack CEO said, "This will be a meaningful commercial offering for us in the near term, medium term, and long term." Chad, what are your thoughts on Google's data deal? Chad: So I think it's interesting because I'm wondering what kind of hallucinations will happen after letting that beast loose, right? No matter. It's a very smart play by Google. We just talked about Klarna and what they're looking to do. This is all about data. This is all about walled-off data. And they're going to be playing, they're going to be paying Stack Overflow for this. And that is genius. And they are setting a precedent, which I think is awesome because there is money to be made. There's money in them Thar Hill. So Stack is one example. There are many data lakes, data oceans that are out there that I think there's going to be a race to those lakes of data from Google and Microsoft, obviously with OpenAI and so on and so forth. But people using the models, the beautiful part about it is that they're starting to understand that the large language models are not the voice of God. They are imperfect and yet still incredibly helpful at the same time. So I think at first we got in there and it was like, oh, it's a toy, let's play with it. And it was all good. And it's like, wow, this is pretty good. And then people got really serious about it. And then they were like, we're gonna snipe every single issue that we see. We need to go back to, remember, this is a puppy. It's still pissing on the carpet to some extent. Joel: Yeah, this is unfolding to be a common story. We talked about the New York Times and certain publications suing the LLMs for using their content. Now we're seeing these companies get paid for their content. And Reddit most recently, another IPO, you know how I love the IPO talk, Chad. They're doing a deal with Google that Google can access Reddit's content to then train their models to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. I think it's a three-year deal. It's non-exclusive. I'm sure they're talking exclusives with some of these, but my guess is these companies with a lot of content know their value and are going to try to get as much money as possible with as many of these high-tech, big-tech companies as possible. What I find interesting is Google's going to need a new revenue model. If Indeed Search is not going to be, here's a page of links, go to a website and click on the ads that we have on the site. If it's more of AI, talk to me, I'll give you the answer you're looking for. Then it becomes, how does Google make money on that? And subscription seems to be like where it's going. And you can already pay for Gemini... Chad: Services. Joel: You can pay for OpenAI for their better services or enterprise. Obviously, APIs will be part of that. But you look at Google, you also have to make the websites happy. Websites aren't happy if they're not clicking on a link to Google and coming to your site. That doesn't make websites happy. And they really don't like it when you take their content and put it on as the answer to the question, I don't have to go to your site, I can just stay on Google. Chad: Personally, I don't think Google at this point gives two shits about making websites happy. They're going to find a way to be able to monetize off of data that they're paying for, number one. Not to mention also, you're going to have transactional, let's say for instance, businesses who use Google One or the Google Suite, they're going to pay for additional Gemini infusion or something of that nature. I mean, there's going to be transactional and they're going to be bigger business opportunities where you're actually using the large language models with your data, much like Klarna is doing with OpenAI. So I think there are many, many different ways that they're going to be able to not just focus on search and to be able to evolve search, but it's beyond that. Right? It's all the different tentacles that they can get themselves into. Joel: All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll talk about Indeed. All right, Chad, the internet loves a good fiasco and the Glasgow Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory Experience is no exception. Let me say that again. The Glasgow Willy Wonka Chocolate Experience, Chocolate Factory Experience is no exception. The event took place in a mostly empty warehouse and the few scattered candy-themed props and actors in shoddy costumes left attendees disappointed and demanding refunds. One photo in particular caught the internet's attention, featuring an actor dressed as an Oompa Loompa in a meth lab setting. Meth lab is in quotes there. The actor, Kirsty Patterson, has since become a viral sensation and meme of 2024. Joel: And where did she find this opportunity? Well, Indeed, of course. When asked, she said, it was listed on Indeed. I don't normally get my acting jobs through Indeed, but I just thought, all right. To be honest, I was a wee bit skeptical because it was not through an agency. They were offering 500 pounds for two days of work, so I decided to go. But wait, Chad, there's more. There's more from Indeed. A racist job ad stating, "No African-Americans needed," was apparently posted on Indeed. To their credit, the ad was quickly deleted and the company claimed foul play. But one has to wonder, how in a world of AI and Indeed's immense resources does a job posting like this even see the light of day in the first place? Oompa Loompas and racism at Indeed, Chad, what are your thoughts? Chad: Was it racism against Oompa Loompas? Joel: As long as it's not racism against Oompa Loompas, because they've been through some shit, man. Chad: Poor things. Yeah, that poor kid that was a part of the Willy Wonka, I mean, she was not acting. She looked like she was just horrified to be there. I totally get that. It was also compared to like the Fyre Festival. Have you seen that? Joel: Oh, yeah. Chad: Just a low price Fyre Festival. Joel: The lunches. Yeah, the food, like a piece of cheese and a bread. Chad: It's almost impossible for an Indeed to actually take a shit scam like that and not know that it's a scam. The racism piece though, I mean, I think this literally just identifies once again that Indeed is not the leader in technology in our space. You talk about AI, I don't know what they have it doing over there, but it's definitely not going through and doing reviews or checks on the system. If it is, it really sucks at it, should probably pick another one. But yeah, at the end of the day, we're talking about the LinkedIn's of the world a lot of the times, the Indeed's of the world a lot of times, ZipRecruiters and most of them, I think Zip, Zip's a little bit more advanced, but Indeed and LinkedIn, they have old ass decrepit shit that they're still trying to sell and they can't even get the basics right. I mean, we talk about matching. You can't even do matching right. You can't do a lot of this shit. So why do we expect it to catch racism? I think we're asking too much of LinkedIn because it's kind of like that 90-year-old in a walker that has a shit ton of cash. SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: Yeah, quickly on the racism thing. Like they should be able to have some filters before a job goes public with something like, oh, let's see, what was it? No African-Americans, like that key phrase is pretty obvious. If they had done it as like... Chad: It's fairly simple. Joel: Yeah. If they had done it as like a star or an exclamation and tried to get around the filters, I get it, but the fact that that phrase got through is a little bit concerning and they should probably fix that. In terms of the Oompa Loompa, Chad, I'm going to put my PR hat on because I'm sick of these big companies making stupid mistakes. I'm going to fix Indeed's problem. So Indeed needs to hire Kirsty Patterson and have her go to Indeed to find a better job and have her graduate from Oompa Loompa land to, I don't know, an accountant or a real estate professional. I don't know. But this is a grand opportunity for Indeed to take this social phenomenon and make it something good and help her get a real job. You're welcome, Indeed. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast. The Chad, the Cheese, friend. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar. Blue. Nacho. Pepper jack. Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese.

This week on "Live from Transform," we're broadcasting straight from the heart of Las Vegas, bringing you the most sizzling updates from the business and work sector. Expect nothing less than the hottest of hot news! First up, we delve into Paradox's latest move – appointing a brand-new CEO. This change at the top has the industry buzzing, and we're here to analyze what this means for the company's future direction. Then, we're going TMZ-style, uncovering a high-profile industry veteran caught in an unexpected situation Down Under. Rumors are swirling about a potential acquisition in the works, and we've got the inside scoop that's heating up the business world. But that's not all! We're also talking about Veritone's latest strategic play, joining forces with one of the largest job board networks globally. This partnership could reshape the landscape of job seeking and recruitment, and we're breaking down all the implications. If these fiery topics don't catch your interest, you've got to ask yourself – why are you even listening? Tune in for an episode packed with insights, intrigue, and insider info from the world of work. It's all happening right here, live from Transform in Las Vegas! TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Because what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, so don't listen to a damn thing Chad says... Chad: Lies. Lies. Joel: On this podcast. What's up boys and girls? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel mind Freak Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad, not hungover, believe that shit, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show paradox gets a new head, Finnegan Begin again, and Veritone Tony Tony has done it again. Let's do this. Chad: Feels good. Emotional damage. Joel: All right, Chad. We are live from Las Vegas at the Transform Conference. I'm in day five. You are in day two I believe. Chad: Yes, yes. Joel: I'm probably showing a little more wear and tear than you at this point. Chad: God I hope so. Yes. Joel: But, yes. Good times last night. Good times last night. Chad: Amazing times. Joel: I had the giggles, apparently. Chad: Oh my God. Okay. We're just going to go right into this. So, literally, I gave Cheeseman a 5 mg gummy. Yes. Just five. Joel: Lies. Chad: He was... Joel: At least 20 was in that thing. Chad: And shout out to Workvivo because we went to the sphere. Joel: Oh, yeah. Chad: They hooked us up with sweet tickets. So we're in a suite, Joel is right into his gummy. And at the end of it, I mean, first and foremost, it was an amazing experience. Thank you Workvivo. They're owned by Zoom. Joel: Yes. Chad: Which you forgot because you were on a gummy. Joel: I had forgotten, yeah. Chad: The CIO of Zoom. The CIO of Zoom comes in. Amazing dude. He starts talking about different people that they're working with and he says, oh yeah, and then we also had an event with Tony Robbins and you said what? Joel: Did you say Kenny Loggins? [laughter] Joel: And then you said... Chad: I said danger zone and then you couldn't stop laughing. Joel: Oh my God. Check it. You're in the danger zone, my man. And I just lost it. Chad: You were so high. It was hilarious. But the event, how was it? Because you were high and I mean that could set some people into vertigo. Joel: Yeah. Think IMAX on steroids. Chad: Oh, it's amazing. Joel: If you're watching something. Chad: I fucking love it. Joel: And you get air in your face. The chairs shake when you're falling into a pit or something. Chad: Yes. Joel: Mind blowing. I mean, that part was really cool. I was transfixed and then, yeah, something snapped and I could not stop laughing man. It was awesome. Chad: And then we went to go see a friend and videographer. Joel: Yeah. Little Comedy. Chad: Then go... A standup comedy. That was a good time. Joel: That was a good show. Chad: That was a great time. Joel: Yes. Chad: Ben did a good job. He did a really good job. Joel: Yes. I am figuring out that I'm becoming a show guy, Chad, if we're extending this to Vegas... Chad: A show guy. Okay. Joel: So I made fun of the old people way back, that I go to a conference and of course I'm partying at whatever, I've got naked ladies in a pool at a hotel or whatever. And the old people would be like, "Oh, we're going to do a nice dinner. Go see a show." And I thought that was so lame. Now, I'm into it. I'm loving it. First night did a Cirque du Soleil show, I think the love show with Plum. Chad: Yes. Yeah. Last time. Oh, that was amazing. Yeah. Joel: Got me intrigued. And we did the mind freak. Chad: Oh, did you? Joel: Chris Angel. Oh, we did this thing. Chad: Oh damn. Joel: Carrot Top was in the audience. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Jesus. Joel: So every show has the chance to really drop an unexpected pleasure. Mine just happened to be Carrot Top. Chad: Yes. Well, the first night that we were here I was sucking, because we were up early, we traveled. JobPixel had this amazing event where, it was, they took over a piece of the buffet here in the Wynn and you're like "Ah, it's a buffet." That is the buffet. That's not a, but that is... If you're going to any buffet, that's the buffet. I saw a guy sitting over by the crab legs. He should have just taken the plate of crab legs. 'Cause I mean, go figure, it's all you can eat. And that's all he was eating. High quality. Joel: You know I've been known to like a good meal or two, Chad. Chad: I do. Joel: And even I was overwhelmed with the magnitude of the Wynn... Chad: Yes. Joel: Buffet. Chad: Yes. Joel: So my hat's off to Mr. Crab legs who could not stop consuming the said crab legs, because that is a real athlete my friend. Chad: Yes. Joel: Not all heroes... Chad: No. Joel: Wear capes. Chad: No. And thanks again to Omar, JobPixel, that was amazing. Both of which we're advisors for but then we're here in Transform. I have never been to a show at the Wynn before, I don't believe. Have you? Joel: I've never been at the Wynn before. Chad: This is up... That's 'cause they wouldn't let you in. Joel: Yeah, they shouldn't. Chad: This is upscale. You had a badge this time, so they let you in. Joel: Yeah. Chad: This is upscale. And it was funny because Julie on day one said every show should be at the Wynn. Joel: She did say that. She did say that. It's all right as a show... I mean, as a hotel I'm sure it's great. Chad: Yeah, it's nice. Joel: It's all right as a show conference place. Chad: I like it. Joel: It's alright. Chad: I do like Caesars Forum where... Joel: Caesars? Maybelline day... Chad: Unleash does their thing too. Joel: Does a good job too. Chad: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Vegas is a good spot. Coming here three times a year probably not what I want to do, but we'll make do. We were on stage yesterday, had three amazing practitioners. We have that show. Joel: How did we get them? Chad: Samara. Samara and Transform got us some amazing practitioners. We are going to have that actually go out as a podcast on its own. It was amazing time. We got an opportunity to talk brass tacks with three practitioners on stage and they weren't afraid. Joel: Nope. Intro: Which I love. Joel: No. A great diverse. We had Panda, which is your Panda Express... Chad: Joey. Joel: Your fast Chinese food. Chad: Joey. Joel: We had Box Tech company, storage... Chad: Jess. Yep. Jessica. Joel: That was great. And then Hungryroot, kind of your hippie... Chad: Uh-huh, Caroline. Joel: Hippie trippy health food in a Box coming to your house. Chad: Yes. Yes. Joel: So we got a really great different views... Chad: Diverse. Joel: AI, DI automation. Chad: Loved it. Joel: We tried to tackle as many issues as we could in 45 minutes. And, yeah, we'll be releasing that soon. But that was fantastic. Yeah. Chad: Whenever you get on stage, obviously, we bring on beer. It's the end of the day, we've got that happening. We both thought, at the end of the day we were like, "Nobody is going to be here. We're going to be talking to an empty crowd." Every fucking place was full. Joel: It was full. Chad: It was full. Joel: It was full. It wasn't the biggest of areas. We weren't on... Chad: Yeah, I know. Joel: If you've been to these things. There's the keynotes... Chad: We were the Expo hall. Yeah. Joel: There's the keynote with 1000 chairs. We weren't there. But we were competing with Liquor. Okay? We were competing with all the exhibitors here. And that's not always easy. So I think that we held our own. Chad: Yes. Joel: We opened it up with Little Guns N' Roses, Welcome to the jungle. Kind of set the mood... Chad: Oh, teaser, teaser. Joel: Set the mood. You poured beer on a lot of the audience members from what I remember, had a little spillage. Chad: I had a beer... Joel: A little spillage on stage. Chad: I needed a sippy cup, I needed a sippy cup. Joel: But had a good time. So my question to you is... Chad: Yes. Joel: We go to a lot of shows. Where is Transform in the big scheme of things for you? Where do they compete? How are they different? Where are they better? Your take? Chad: Well, I like to say that, first of all, I don't like to stack rank because they're so different. The shows are so different. It's kind of like RecFest is so much different than Unleash. And Transform so different than RecFest. There are a lot. I'm going to say probably 70% of the vendors that are here I have never fucking heard of. Joel: Interesting. Chad: 70, at least 70%. Joel: Interesting. Chad: A bulk. So they're obviously bringing in an entirely different crop of startups. So, again, I don't see this as better, worse, or anything. I see it as different. And especially when we're talking about the audience that they're hitting, a lot of high level practitioners. I actually had SVP of Pepsi stop me today. Ask me when she can be on the podcast. I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" Joel: Oh, nice. Chad: Yes. So... Joel: Nice. Chad: Yeah. Good stuff. Really good stuff. Joel: Good stuff. I think you mentioned Unleash and we'll be at Unleash in Vegas again in May. Chad: Yes. Joel: They seem to be really competitive with HR tech, whether that's a mental thing or just by default but to me... Chad: But I don't think they are. I don't think they are. Joel: No. HR tech is an industry integration. Chad: It's a vendor sausage fest. Joel: Yeah. Don't go to HR tech thinking you're going to fill the funnel... Chad: No. Joel: And make a lot of sales. Chad: It's... Joel: To me... Chad: Strategic alliances... Joel: This Felt more Unleashy to me, more competitive. Chad: Okay. Joel: So if I'm Unleash, I'm looking at Transform a little more than HR tech as an up and coming competitor. We know ERE is trying to sort of reimagine their conferences... Chad: They have investors who have booths here. Right? Joel: Sure. Chad: Yeah. I mean, and we should see more of that. Joel: And on stage as well. Chad: Yes. We should see more of that. And I know that Unleash is really hitting the investor and startup side of the house hard. So, yeah, I think, again, I think they're taking it at different angles which is cool... Joel: Yes. Chad: Because if they try to be the same, I mean, then it gets boring and you hear the Charlie Brown wah, wah, wah. Joel: Yep. Yep. And likewise... Chad: I see it different. Joel: RecFest's. Chad: Oh, fuck dude. Joel: Their secret sauce is just nobody is like us. Chad: No. Joel: So hat's off. Chad: Nobody is RecFest. Joel: Hat's off to them. Chad: Yes. Joel: Hat's off to them. All right, let's make a quick do of our announcements. Chad: Let's do that. Joel: Because we are live. It's typical. Chad: Ben from BrightHire. Joel: We're going to hold off on... Yes. Ben Sesser, CEO of BrightHire, just walked by. He's looking good. He's in all black. We're recording a live show so... Chad: Get out of here Ben. Joel: You are famous. Chad: We're doing stuff, Jesus. [laughter] Joel: By the way, thanks to BrightHire, one of our newest sponsors of Firing Squad. That's right. Chad: You guys love Firing Squad. Joel: You Love Teddy. You love Teddy. You love Firing Squad. Now you'll learn to love BrightHire... Chad: Our favorite country music star. Teddy Chestnut. Joel: [chuckle] Chestnut. Chad: Teddy Chestnut. Joel: And food competitor. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Food eating competitor. So we'll get to birthdays... Chad: Next week. Joel: Probably not next week, we'll be in... Chad: Oh, that's right, Amsterdam. Joel: We'll be in Europe. So it might be a couple of weeks. But shout out to Plum... Chad: Yes. Joel: Our sponsor for the birthdays. Shout out to Textkernel sponsoring bourbon selection by both of us. Aspen Tech Labs. Chad: Yes. Joel: For beer and really excited new T-shirt design just approved. We'll be printing those up soon. Chad: Oh, you're going to see it. Joel: Erin E-R-I-N is our new sponsor for T-shirts. Very excited about that. Look for that. If you haven't signed up at chadcheese.com... Chad: Sexy. Joel: /free, you're not getting a T-shirt, you're not getting bourbon, you're not getting beer. You'll probably be the most avoided person at your next social event. Chad: More than likely, yeah. Joel: So, yeah, you got to go to chadcheese.com, click that free link, put in your information and who knows, a T-shirt and some booze just might show up at your door. Chad: And you said Textkernel. We're going to see our friend Gerard Mulder. Joel: Gerard. Yes. Chad: Gerard Mulder in Amsterdam next week as we're going to the e-recruitment congress. Leaving, get ready, we expect Belgian beer, Belgian chalk, all of it my friend. I can't wait, dude. Joel: Don't throw any Heineken or Amstel Light at my ass... Chad: I'm so excited. Joel: Don't even think about it. Gerard, love Gerard. He... Chad: Oh, yes. Joel: He's a gentleman technologist and he always drops wisdom and I feel much smarter... Chad: He does. Joel: At the end of it. So if you are going to be in Amsterdam or you are going to House of HR, make sure you say hi to us. Another quick announcement, we just dropped our data... Chad: Toby. Joel: Data podcast. Toby Dayton, CEO of LinkUp, gets information that the Wall Street guys are accessing. Chad: Yes. Joel: People are making money with this information. Chad: He's the insider of insiders. Joel: And you lucky listener, no cost whatsoever. Get to know... Chad: YouTube. Joel: The wisdom... Chad: YouTube. Joel: And the data of Toby Dayton. So you can only view this on YouTube. Go to youtube.com/@ChadCheese make sure you subscribe, share, like and watch. Chad: Do it all. Do it all. Yeah. Joel: And watch. Chad: He's sharing charts and graphs and all that other fun stuff that really they don't translate well on the audio side. So go to YouTube look for Chad and Cheese podcast and listen and watch. Joel: Yeah, and you don't have to be a genius. We dumb it down for the Chad and Cheese folks. Chad: Well, it's got... Joel: Mainly for us. Chad: Mainly for us. Yeah. Joel: But, yeah, you'll understand it, you'll digest it, you'll consume it... Chad: We got to simplify it. Yes. Joel: You'll love it. Your boss will think you're great and smart just like Chad and cheese. Shall we get to topics. Chad: Topics. Joel: That's Right baby. All right, big news out of the desert this week. Chad: What? Joel: Paradox has promoted friend of the show Adam Godson to CEO with founder Aaron Matos becoming executive chairman. Godson, previously president and chief product officer, joined in 2020 and led the company's initial growth. As CEO, he aims to continue the company's culture of client care and innovation. Matos will serve as advisor and mentor to the executive team. Chad: Nice. Joel: Focusing on strategic vision and product development. Big news, Chad, your thoughts? Chad: Big news. Yeah, so it's funny because we got this news early, 'cause we've got friends... Joel: We got friends like that. Chad: We have friends. Adam is a close friend, Jay-Z, amazing. And, again, we talked about this four years ago. Jay-Z went to Paradox first, I believe, and then Adam did four years ago. And I said on the show, Aaron and I think I can say we were both at one time control freaks. Not that I'm not a control freak now. But we were both control freaks. And I said that if Aaron gets the fuck out of the way and lets these guys run, this company will explode. They threw that at me this week. Joel: Sure. Sure. Chad: But Aaron I didn't say make him CEO, but it's not a bad thing. Yeah. I think this is amazing. Paradox, it's funny because they are the alpha in this space. Joel: The apex predator I've been known to call them. Chad: They are the alpha. They have taken a chatbot to applicant tracking system. I mean, all the way through the system. And as we talk about, how do you own this market? You got to go down funnel. We talked about even the job boards. They need to go more down funnel if they want to be relevant moving on, you got to have data. Why? This whole AI thing is a thing. Paradox understands that, they understood that. They know data means everything. And then you got a guy who, he is best in class. Adam Godson, in the market. He was with RPO Cielo for years doing this exact same thing. Now he has the cash, not just duct tape and bailing wire that he had at Cielo to build products. He has the firepower to go build whatever he wanted to as the chief product officer. Now he's the fucking CEO. And then you've got Aaron still there... Joel: No. Chad: As chairman. So dude I'm excited. I'm biased as fuck, don't get me wrong, but I am excited to see where these guys go. Joel: Yeah, it is a two-way street with those guys. Chad: Yes. Joel: I think the love goes both ways... Chad: Yes. Joel: From that. And we will be in Phoenix... Chad: Yes. Joel: Soon. So hopefully... Chad: April, Jesus. Joel: I don't know if we'll be his first interview as CEO, but I'll take that gig if he wants to give it to us. So I have a special relationship with them. In the 2000s, I sold what was then a blog, SEO mobile kind of... Chad: Cheese Head. Joel: Kind of a mix up of a company. Worked for Aaron directly for a couple of years. I will echo your control freak comment. Although, I think the years, having children, life just sort of has mellowed Aaron a little bit. Chad: It does that too. Joel: A leopard doesn't change its stripes, usually. So I got three takeaways from this. Chad: Okay. Joel: Number one is, Paradox must be doing really well. Back to the control freak thing. Aaron does not let go unless it's going really, really well. And he feels like I can step away. So... Chad: Adam hasn't been president for long either. Joel: No. So as much as we know that Paradox is doing very well, my guess is it's even doing better than we think or we talk about. So that's my first takeaway. Paradox must be crushing it for Aaron to make this move. Number two, Aaron highlights the importance of CEO as your head of TA. And I don't say that lightly. He's a fantastic recruiter. He has built a team that is frankly probably unmatched in our little world of work here. And most CEOs do not focus on the recruitment side of it like Aaron has and will continue to do so. So from his board of directors, his investors, his leadership team, probably middle management and beyond, he's had a hand in that. He's had a directive in some of those. He's probably gone all out to get Adam on board to get Jay-Z on board... Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: To get these guys on board. So he exemplifies the importance of CEO as head of talent. CEO needs to be recruiting. And my third takeaway is that, he ain't going away. [chuckle] Chad: Oh, no. No. Joel: He ain't going away. Chad: I ain't leaving. Joel: Yeah, he ain't leaving. This is Wolf of Wall Street Bay. Chad: I ain't leaving. Joel: Yeah, they need to... Anyway. It will probably enable him to focus more on, he does acquisitions incredibly well. Chad: He's a smart nude. Joel: And we've talked about consolidation. We've talked about TJ Maxx clearance racks. He is going to have time to focus on these acquisitions and start knocking them down one by one, and just sort of give them to the team to run. So one, Paradox is crushing it. Two, CEO needs to be your head of recruiting. And number three, Aaron is not going anywhere and he'll be Unleashed on parts that have been less of a focus. Chad: It's scary. Joel: And that's kind of scary. Chad: It's going to be scary. Joel: That's a little scary. Chad: So there's... And I think we're missing one piece that I want to hit, we've hit before in the past, Aaron has one superpower that most CEOs in this space do not. Joel: Yep. Chad: His experience and his failure. And failure is learning. Knowing how determined Aaron is, and I don't know him as well as you do, but I'm sure that you agree how determined that dude is. He wanted to come out as the Phoenix with this Paradox, with Paradox and Olivia. And he really has. And that's one of the things that we have to understand is that, failure is a learning experience and you have to pivot off that and you have to become better. And I just think he has, I really think he has. To Adam's point of being head of TA, there's nobody in the industry that's more likable than that guy. Maybe Jay-Z. The two most likable guys. Joel: Yeah. Okay. Chad: In the industry are leaders in that organization. Amazing. Joel: Yes. And don't discount Aaron going from what was arguably a top five, six job board nationally, and starting this little bitty chatbot side project that has become what it has become. But there's a lot of humble pie... Chad: Vision. Yeah. Joel: Humble pie needs to be eaten, a lot of looks in the mirror and that's not easy to do. Chad: No. Joel: And he once commented in a meeting that, "Hey, if we're gonna be disrupted, I want to be the one that's doing the disrupting." Which is good advice for any organization. But he ate that dog food and he disrupted his own job board business. Chad: That's maturity. Joel: Yeah. Chad: That is, if anything matures you... I've failed, I've crashed and burned with products and shit like that. What I've learned out of that is immense, I mean, it is. And I feel like I've been a better person out of learning out of that. So, again, I think he has a superpower where most founders in this space, experience wise, they do not. Joel: Yeah. And knowing Aaron as I do, he's hating all this sunshine being blown up his ass. [laughter] Joel: So... Chad: Hey dude, I have been one of Aaron's biggest critics. Joel: A critic, yes. Chad: For years. We have been on opposite sides of the fence, even from litigation standpoint at a company that I was with and at a company he was with. Right? Joel: Yep. Yep. Chad: I'm not gonna blow sunshine unless... Joel: [chuckle] unless. Chad: Unless he deserves it. Right? Joel: Yeah. Okay. But he still hates it. Chad: You on the other... Joel: I'm just telling you he hates it... Chad: You on the other hand, you're a sunshine blower. Joel: He hates it and hate him thinking all his company is listening to this, is driving him crazy. Okay. Chad: Next. Joel: Well, we will take our noses out of Aaron's ass and get a word from our sponsors. Remember, kids, there is no show without sponsors. So listen to our ads and write blank checks to all the companies that are supporting the Chad Cheese podcast. Chad: Ooh. SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: All right. We are back day. Chad: We are back. Joel: Day two, Transform conference at the Wynn in beautiful Las Vegas. Chad: Yes. Joel: Nevada. Let's... Chad: Transform. Joel: To keep up with the topics. Swedish private equity investor, EQT Partners, has put up its hand for Melbourne Australia born human resources software business, PageUp, where US Tech investor, Battery Ventures, wants to part with its 80% stake. Sources told Street Talk, EQT Partners was among parties that tabled a non-binding indicative bid to SellSide advisor, William Blair, last month. British PE investor Permira is also understood to have shown interest, although it is unclear if it's submitted an offer. The Sharks are out looking for deals. Chad, what's your take on the PageUp news? Chad: Yeah. We talked about PageUp coming out publicly and saying, "Hey, we were ready to sell. We're ready to sell." I mean it, that was amazing. You never hear that, shit happens behind closed doors. And they said, "Hey, market, we want to sell." And, well, apparently they have takers. Apparently they have takers, which is awesome. Here's the cool thing, and again, this is all rumor, maybe it's, you know. Joel: This is the good stuff. Everybody. [chuckle] Chad: A social post, from Dan Finnigan. You might know this guy. Dan Finnigan, actually says, "Speaking of the Beatles, off to Melbourne for a few days, and then Sydney for a day, just so I can be back by the following Monday." So he's gone to Australia in a whirlwind tour. Dan Finnigan. Now, who's Dan Finnigan, Joel? Joel: Dan Finnigan is a mover and Shaker, CEO executive, that cut his teeth at HotJobs Yahoo. Chad: Yes. Joel: Back in the early 2000s, he took Jobvite over. Chad: Jobvite. Yes. Yes. Joel: Got them acquired, got them... Chad: Jobvite was what? Joel: Got them a pay day. Chad: An applicant tracking system. Joel: A job applicant tracking system. Yeah. And he helped oversee some acquisitions there, at least start the process. Chad: Yes. Joel: And now he's at a startup and probably knows a few money guys, and called those money guys and said, "Hey, why don't we go see what's up, see if there's an opportunity here." Chad: Could be. Could be. Joel: And our sources on the ground. Chad: Yes. [chuckle] Joel: Were like TMZ now. Chad: We're rumors. Yeah. We were getting all this, we were getting all this stuff from all of our sources. Rumor, again, there's an opportunity here. Will Dan actually prospectively take the CEO position knowing that PageUp's CEO more than likely wants to eject right now. Or at least that's what we're hearing from sources. I don't know about that. He might be on the ground for due diligence because he is an ATS CEO and he has background in that. Or could he be coming in as an advisor? Due diligence, advisory, that kind of thing. No matter what, when you've got a guy with that firepower making a world wind tour to Australia to be able to go through a... And again, this is speculation, might be coincidence, but that's fucking doubtful. What do you think? Joel: Unless he's got a pension that I have for blooming onions and a nice Foster's beer. Chad: I'm so sorry, Australians. Our friends in Australia. I'm sorry. Joel: Going to Australia and the time it takes to get there is not something that you would take lightly. So Dan right now, is at Filtered, who's raised $10 million. When he joined Jobvite, they were nobody. It was pretty shocking that someone that had been at Yahoo HotJobs would leave that to go to this little job by, it was social media. Chad: That's exciting though. Joel: Social media ATS was their pitch at the time. But Dan has these ways of joining small companies that you've never heard of, seeing promise, seeing a team that can make bigger things if they just add water. And maybe PageUp is the water that needs to be added to the company... Chad: Possibly. Joel: To make that happen. Chad: Possibly. Joel: My take was that, they were seven, eight years into the Battery Ventures money. That it was the road, the clock had run out. It was time that Battery Ventures wanted to get their money, that maybe they weren't doing as well. I think the ATS business is stressed. I think that it's tough right now to make a dollar. You normally are able to sell it on the down low where no one knows you're for sale. But to announce that we want to do this... Chad: Raise their hand. Joel: That is like, we're not getting enough buyers by the hush hush down low. We need to get a big, put a bigger net out there. So I still don't believe that PageUp is crushing it... Chad: No. Joel: And I think they are motivated sellers. And Dan or whoever comes in will get a fine property and if they can create efficiencies, build brand more globally or do something different, it could be the next Jobvite for sure, the new company or PageUp becomes something else. So I thought this was awesome, that we have people on the ground that see that, listen to the show, know who people are and like, "Hey, you guys might want to know about... Chad: Check this out. Joel: Dan Finnigan being in Australia. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. I mean, Australia is not a big enough market in itself from a growth standpoint for PE, right? Joel: No. Chad: You need to expand. They said they want to come to the US. Well, I have not seen them successfully coming to the US. Okay? So, again, Dan Finnigan, network. I don't know. Just trying to put all the dots together, kids. Joel: And by the way, he may know a few executives that want to get out of their current employer. Chad: Imagine that. Yes. Again, network man. Joel: And build a team similar to what Aaron has done at Paradox. By the way, speaking of consolidation. Chad: Yes. Joel: Knowing that Dan Finnigan and Aaron Matos are going to be on the hunt for new opportunities and acquisitions. It's going to be a fun time for the show. Chad: It will be. Joel: If that trend continues. Well, let's take another break. Chad: Okay. Joel: We'll come back and talk about our friends at Veritone. Chad: Got it. [music] Joel: Tony, Tony, Tony has done it again, Chad. Chad: Feels good. Joel: Jobiqo has relaunched the job network, touting itself as North America's largest recruitment ad network powered by their AI enabled job board platform and Veritone's programmatic ad distribution technology. Chad: Hello. Joel: Chad, there's a lot to unpack here. Your thoughts on the Veritone, Jobiqo job network marriage. Chad: Yeah, this is smart for both organizations easily. And first and foremost, Veritone, friend of the show, sponsor of the show. They've been fairly distressed lately. I mean, AI has taken a hit because of all the FAANG companies doing AI. And I mean... Joel: The stock is not going to the moon. Last time I checked. Chad: There's a ton of shit going on. Although, what does Veritone need? They need a bigger footprint. Need a bigger boat. We've always talked about this. This footprint is amazing because you're talking about like 150 plus job boards in North America plus the EU. So you've got all these, mainly dock region. But at the end of the day, man, your footprint grows. The EU is not as advanced with regard to programmatic as the US is. Although, for the Jobiqo side of the house, now they're evolving. And we've said that if job boards want to stay alive, they have to evolve. Amazing. You automatically have this programmatic performance based technology in your system. And you can offer it to every single, hundreds, thousands of job board clients. Joel: Sure. Chad: Press the button. Joel: Turnkey. Chad: And then Jobiqo, I guarantee you, has a transactional cut that they take off of it. Amazing. So they get their SaaS play, they get their transactional play. And who's the big brother of this thing? Joel: Veritone. Chad: Veritone is powering the whole fucking thing. So this, to me, again, is incredibly smart. Broadbean is in play, obviously, because of the acquisition of Veritone. So many moving parts. We've been talking really short-term that stock hasn't looked good. They have all the pieces to be able to make this work. And we've just been sitting back and saying, "What the fuck are they going to do?" This is, I think, big. Joel: Yeah. It could be for sure. And we'll keep our eye on it. The Job Network, and not to turn this into a nostalgic Aaron Matos edition of the Chad and Cheese podcast. But... Chad: Tell me a story. Joel: A guy named Scott Molitor started the Job Network way back in the day. Out of Milwaukee, built up these great domains that were all city focused, while Aaron was at Jobing in Arizona, getting all the state names and certainly rush for those local states. So the Job Network for a long time was just this juggernaut of SEO goodness, before Indeed came along and figured that out. Chad: Smashed it. Joel: They kind of owned any city jobs... Chad: Before Google changed the algorithm. Joel: Yeah, they just never kept up. Scott sold the company in 2016. Probably really good timing on his part... Chad: Yes. Joel: Because of the changes we've seen in the industry. But it has sort of been this dilapidated house just waiting for someone from the HGTV crew... Chad: It needed a refurb. Oh, yeah. Joel: Put in some new drywall, fresh coat of paint and really focus on what the business could be. And I think Veritone sees that opportunity. You and I knew early on about the Pando Veritone, the Broadbean Veritone kind of connection. And I think we saw what it could be. But we thought, like you said, they need a bigger boat. This is one of the few job board properties, networks, if you will, that they can plug and play, put our jobs through share revenue, we've got instant traffic. Now we have a line to Europe, which I think is maybe the most interesting part of the story. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: They need to SEO it, they need to like leverage every free option, social media, and the technology behind Veritone to create content, which I don't think they've even unlocked yet, to create content and video, to create content in multiple languages. Chad: Oh, God. Joel: If that opens up a whole new way... Chad: Voice. Joel: To drive traffic to these sites, that becomes pretty interesting. So... Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Our eyes gonna be on this. We know that our relationship with them, they'll keep us in tune to what's going on. But, yeah, this is one of the few moves you can see in the job board space these days, outside of Stepstone buying CareerBuilder and Monster... Chad: Not happening. Joel: Which I still contend... Chad: Is not happening. Joel: Will not happen until it does. This is definitely something something to watch. Chad: Well, and again, you talk about the SEO side of the house. So you've got Martin Lenz on the Jobiqo side of the house. They're going to be working that avenue. This is a divide and conquer type of scenario. And I love that, partnerships until you buy them. And that could happen, maybe not, I think in this point, working as two separate entities, as partners that know their shit, and they're incredibly focused and disciplined on their shit. I think it could be, it could be magic. And it could be magic for both of them. But mainly, first off for Jobiqo because all of these job board platforms that are out there are getting old and dusty. And I mean, there aren't a lot of really good up to date ones that are out there, Jobiqo is, it's top shelf. Will job boards start kicking over to their network and using this new tech instead? Joel: I think job postings are just the start. I mean, I could see where there's a pre-screening tool driven by Veritone AI, interviews... Chad: Wade and Wendy. Joel: Obviously chat, Wade and Wendy, does this chat come into play of I don't have a resume, it's a it's a warehouse job. Like Chatbot is right there to take your resume as a chat and a conversation. Chad: Answer some questions. Joel: It's mobile friendly. So I think this is just starting with posting jobs and getting more exposure for those jobs. I'm excited. This has been a fantastic show with a lot of optimism of companies... Chad: Good stuff. Joel: Doing really interesting things... Chad: Look at you not being dystopian. Joel: And we got to talk about blooming onions and Foster's and Australia. [laughter] Joel: There's a blackjack table and a lunch buffet calling my name. Chad, this has been a hell of a week. Another episode in the can, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

In this episode of the podcast, the boys dive deep into the world of talent strategy and employee satisfaction with Dr. Jim Kanichirayil, VP of growth at EngageRocket, researcher, writer, podcaster, and a seasoned professional in the tech industry. Dr. Jim sheds light on the dissatisfaction brewing among workers within traditional employment structures, pointing towards the rise of freelance work and the gig economy as potential alternatives. We explore the phenomenon known as the "Great Resignation" and its lasting impact on the workforce, uncovering underlying issues like stagnant wages, layoffs, and limited career growth opportunities. The financial toll of attrition on organizations is also brought to the forefront, highlighting the significant costs associated with replacing employees. As Chad and Joel question why talent acquisition professionals aren't taking more proactive measures to address retention and productivity concerns, Dr. Jim suggests that short-term fixes often take precedence over long-term talent management strategies. He stresses the crucial role of effective leadership and managerial support in retaining employees. Throughout the discussion, we delve into key aspects of employee retention and development, including brand integrity, onboarding processes, and the importance of clear communication. Dr. Jim draws parallels between corporate practices and military training, emphasizing the need for continuous learning and development. We also explore shifting attitudes towards stability and career paths among different generations, advocating for a more flexible and entrepreneurial approach to career management. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the importance of organizational adaptation to meet the evolving expectations and aspirations of employees, fostering long-term engagement and loyalty. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Awww yeah, it's Sean Carter's favorite podcast, aka the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel. Joined as always, the Beyonce to my Jay-Z... Chad: Yes. Joel: Chad is in the house. Help us welcome now Dr. Jim Kanichirayil, VP of Growth at Engage Rocket. He's a researcher, writer, podcaster, and just let us know, a proud Gen Xer. Dr. J, welcome to the podcast. Chad: Feral, feral Gen Xer, not just a Gen Xer. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, you forgot the feral part. [laughter] Yeah, thanks for having me out. I'm looking forward to this conversation. I've been a fan of your show for quite a while, and it's a lot of fun being on the guest side, because... Chad: Oh, go on, go on. Joel: Say more. Chad: Yeah, say more. How much do you own? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: We can start talking about the people in the HR and TA tech space that we want to kneecap, [laughter] but I don't think that's going to be an appropriate course of conversation for us. Chad: But it's fun, Jim. It is so cathartic just to be able to get out there what you really feel sometimes, which is why this podcast is so much fun. But we'll go in a different direction right now. So, tell listeners a little bit about yourself. Give us a Twitter bio. Who is Dr. Jim? When you get in nice, this soul-searching, who is Dr. Jim? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, that's an interesting question, [laughter] and it's always difficult to answer. I think in a lot of ways I can describe myself as your friendly neighborhood talent strategy nerd, [laughter] because that's typically how I open my shows. But in general, people in my circle know me as the guy that has 15 jobs, so I've spent a lot of time in the talent space. I've been a recruiter. I've always been in startup or accelerating growth organizations on the tech side, either on the talent acquisition side or TA tech or HR tech, and that's kind of where I'm at right now. I've been married for a long time, have three meathead sons [laughter] who are going to make me lose more of my hair as they get older. And beyond that, the details of my life are pretty inconsequential. [laughter] Joel: I'll add that he's showing us up from a podcaster's sort of pissing match. He has a neon sign in the back with Dr. Jim, and he has a light ring, which I can see in his glasses. So, he is showing us up already. You better bring the hurt, my friend. Chad: We're not even on video, okay? We're not even on video. [laughter] Joel: With the purple, with like the pink. And, yeah, very ace. Chad: No, it's good stuff. Yeah, up your game, Cheeseman. Up your game, Jesus. Joel: I'm kidding. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, it keeps the attention on my giant five head, [laughter] so there's that... Chad: Well, this is... I mean, it's good for TikTok, right? Because we're three Gen Xers, and I believe, and I don't know how much Cheeseman is posting yet, but I believe we're all three on TikTok. Is that correct? Are you on, Cheeseman? You're on putting stuff up, aren't you? Joel: Only because we do video, kicking and screaming. [laughter] The only thing I post are you and our show. Chad: Okay, okay. So, what about you, Dr. Jim? How often are you posting on TikTok as a feral Gen Xer? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, so that can be a bit of a problem because I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and TikTok. So, typically on TikTok I'm posting three, four times a day. Joel: God. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: I'm also on YouTube as well. And part of my strategy from just an exposure perspective is just to have much more custom content across all of my channels and grow all three at once. I'm doing the work once, so it just makes sense for me to populate it across the channels that I happen to spend a lot of time on. Chad: Agreed, agreed. Okay, let's go ahead and get into today's subject. Joel: Four times a day. Chad: Joel, he eats at least three times a day. That's the only thing he does three times a day. Joel: I'm never going that deep. [laughter] Chad: So, the great resignation is officially over. So, tell the listeners why we're going to be talking about attrition today, Dr. Jim. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, it's interesting that you phrase it that way because I would make the argument that the great resignation isn't over. Chad: It's all over the papers, man. They're all saying it's over. Don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. [laughter] Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, I mean, I don't know how to process that. I mean, I think when you look at employee sentiment across the board, I think it's safe to say that most of the working class, and if you have a job, you're in the working class, it doesn't really matter like how much you're bringing home unless you're one of those overpaid CEOs who... Chad: Don't get me started. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Anyways. Joel: Don't get him started. [laughter] Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, don't get me started either. I would make the argument that the broader workforce, especially in the US context is deeply dissatisfied with the nature of work, and it's evidenced by a lot of what you see in terms of the shifts to the gig economy. You see more and more folks out of the millennial and Gen Z class, and you'll continue to see this. Those folks are moving to more of a freelance type work because the contract, or at least the agreement that we feral Gen Xers were brought up with where you have an employer-employee agreement, that's all a bunch of crap, [laughter] and what you see now... Chad: We got suckered. Is that what you're saying? We got suckered? [laughter] Joel: It's a load of malarkey. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah. [laughter] If I say malarkey, I'm going to go like... Joel: We're sending it to the retirement home, if you say malarkey on this show. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, that's not something that's natural to me, but when you look at what's happening in the broader world of work, and you have so many layoffs that seem to make no sense, and to sit there and make the argument that the great resignation is over, I don't think it's over. I think it's going to continue, and you're going to see some pretty significant shifts in how employees in the working class view the world of work, and what role work and career has in their life going forward, unless some pretty significant things change. Joel: When you say the layoffs don't make sense to you, I'm going to push back on that a little bit. They make a lot of sense to me. Meta just reported their quarterly earnings, their year of efficiency. They've gone from like 187k employees to 167k. It seemed to work out for them. More efficiency, less headcount, we're still productive, we're better than ever, so tell me why they don't make sense. Oh, by the way, the stock is up 20% in a day. So, I'd say a few shareholders say that it's working. Why do you say it's not, or it doesn't make sense? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, no. I mean, I think that's a great point, Joel, and I think that my comment depends on the lens that you're looking at that statement from. Joel: Okay. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: If you're looking at it from the perspective of maximizing shareholder value, that makes great sense. If you're an acolyte of the Jack Welch School of Business, that makes great sense because the number one responsibility for business, or the Friedman School as well, number one responsibility of business is to maximize profits and shareholder value. So, in that lens, it makes absolute sense. But when you look at the same data points that you just mentioned, and you look at it or view that from the perspective of the average worker, you have record profits that are happening, that are going on. You have all of the stock prices that are going through the roof. And yet, you have the broader political and business landscape that is unwilling to do anything when it comes to the compensation structures in terms of how workers are paid. I mean, we saw this play out with the UAW strike. You've seen this play out in the discussions about the minimum wage. You've seen this play out over and over again, where workers are being told repeatedly that your role in life is to continue feeding our bottom line. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And then when we're tired of you, or when you reach a level that is beyond our willingness to pay, we're going to get rid of you and bring in the next class in. That's where it doesn't make sense. For a typical employee to be able to see the numbers where they are from a macroeconomic perspective, a balance sheet perspective, a stock price perspective, and then be told we don't have money for raises, we don't have money to shift you to other verticals within our organization to bring you up in skills. And if you get too lippy, we're just going to replace you with AI. So, go pound sand. So, this is where it doesn't make sense. Chad: One of the things that gets me, and I think Joel was just... He was putting that out there because that's how most Americans think. And that's how we've been trained to think, quarter to quarter, right? Incredibly short-sighted. We're worried about how the stock hits tomorrow, as opposed to the ability of the company to grow long-term, right? Sustainable growth. Also didn't mention that they just cut all the bullshit VR that they were spending millions of dollars on, right? So, there are a ton of different things. It wasn't just associated to one thing. Although, the media would want you to think that, "Oh, look, it's all about efficiency." That's total bullshit. They were spending money on a bunch of shit in the first place. I'm going to jump back to attrition. An internal memo from Amazon was leaked that said Amazon had lost $8 billion to the bottom line due to attrition. How do we start thinking about attrition, bottom line, upward mobility, retention, and how all of that actually goes to more productivity and more profits, as opposed to the short-sightedness that Joel was throwing out there? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: So, that's a really good question. And I don't think there's any one answer to that question. But if we're talking from a dollars and cents perspective, I think it's important to know, and I don't know if a lot of people actually are zoned in on this. For every instance that you have in your organization where somebody leaves, they weren't fired. They just left. You, as somebody that's watching the books in the organization, are going to burn through 250% of their annual salary, their first year annual salary in replacement costs. So, there's hard and soft costs that you are incurring because you've created an environment that's basically created a revolving door in your organization. I call it the talent attraction hamster wheel. The common complaint within organizations is we can't find enough people. And the answer to that question is multifold. I mean, where are you looking? Who are you looking for? Do you have a profile that you've defined as the ideal profile? And how realistic is that compared to what's out there in terms of overall talent? That's one part of the equation. But the other part of the equation is, who internally is looking to grow and expand their skills? And how are we positioning those people to take on these roles within our organization? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And the reason why I ask that question is when you look historically at the number or volume or percentages of internal moves or internal promotions, that's usually been around 20% of the workforce. So, if you're only presenting internal roles to... And making them available and creating this matrixed organization where people can freely move across functions, and that's only being presented at 20% of your employee landscape, that's a lot of sunk costs that you've invested in those employees that you're not utilizing, and you're actually increasing the risk that those employees leave because they see no path within the organization to grow internally. And employees aren't stupid. If the new person comes into the organization and is making $20,000, $30,000 more than what I was making in that same role, it's a pretty straightforward decision for that internal employee on how they can maximize their own income. And basically, this is, not to go on about it, I think organizations and leaders within organizations have fundamentally downplayed the value of institutional knowledge and experience within their own doors, which leads to this constant churn and this constant waste of money. Chad: Well, because it's all focused on the margin, right? I mean, we actually talk about if you can cut a boomer or an Xer and you can hire a couple of Gen Zs, hell, they'll make up whatever the boomer does or the Gen Xer does. And at the end of the day, that's just not... Again, you need to have the experience to be able to get things done in efficiencies. But the big question is, in talent acquisition, why are we not tying attrition and quit rates to productivity and then tying that productivity to the bottom line? Because we heard in the news over and over and over, when quit rates were high that we were having issues with productivity, but they were trying to tie that to remote work. They were trying to tie that to remote work. So, why, as an industry, talent acquisition, why are we not driving the narrative? Because we are not. Let's face it, kids, we are not driving the narrative, the business narrative. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: I don't have a direct line of sight into answering that question, but I think the way that I would approach it is that it's a difficult linkage to make. It's easy to draw the line between time to fill, onboarding, and all that sort of stuff. When you're asking the question, why isn't talent acquisition making the case that we should be emphasizing development and retention? At some level, that's not their job. You have to look at the broader leadership within the organization and especially the HR function to make that case. And I don't think those conversations are happening nearly enough at all levels of the organization, plus it's complex. I mean, what's an easier problem to solve? We can ask the question, how do we do a better job of developing our people? How do we do a better job of retaining our people? And there's probably 15, 20 different ways that you can impact those two elements. And you compare that to, how do we find more people? How do we get more people to apply? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: The way to get more people to apply, the way to find more people, that's a much more linear, less complex argument that you can make. So, we focus on the things that's easier to solve, the "low-hanging fruit," even though finding the right people is pretty damn complex too, because I've been on that side of it. It's not easy, but from an executive's perspective, how many CEOs have come through a talent acquisition pathway into a sizable organization? I think there's a level of blindness at that level to what is involved in the HR function when you look at people strategy in general. That's just my thought. I don't know how well that's borne out in the actual numbers of what's out there. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Do you define turnover and attrition differently? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: So, I take the approach of this, there's voluntary turnover, there's involuntary turnover. And I made the distinction when I was doing my doc, and I don't want to go, like, have people's eyes glaze over. [laughter] Voluntary turnover is when somebody that you value in the organization decides to leave. Involuntary turnover is, theoretically, they weren't good at their job, so you have to get rid of them. Getting rid of non-performers is a good thing. Now, you can make the argument and ask the question, "Well, how can we get more of our non-performers to a level of competency where they're adding value to the organization?" That's a different question. But you always want to cycle through those "misfit candidates," those candidates that aren't aligned with your organization. You want to uncover those quickly and then move them out. But the vast majority of organizations aren't doing a good job of keeping the people that they want either. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And the reason being, look at it this way. If you look at surveys over the years and you measure, like, The Top Five Reasons Why Somebody is Going to Leave an Organization, two out of those top five are going to be driven from specifically manager-related issues. Manager is not good, or the culture is bad, which is also a function of managers. But what are organizations doing to solve that? How are they equipping frontline managers to really be the connective tissue that keeps the people at the line level in the organization? They're not. Most of the time, your line-level managers, your second-line-level managers, they get promoted into those roles and they have to figure stuff out on their own. And oftentimes, they're just high performers that rose to those ranks. And then they're basically saying, "Well, this worked for me, so I'm just going to show you how I do it. Now, do it my way." That's where you get a lot of conflict. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And when you talk about your question about is there a difference between attrition and retention, I think it was what you asked. I don't talk in those terms. There's productive retention and there's unproductive retention, so voluntary turnover and involuntary turnover. And I think what you need to do is focus on how good of a job can you do within your organization to keep as many of your productive employees as possible for as long as possible. The bumper sticker version of that is cheaper to keep them, so why aren't you doing a better job of that? Joel: To me, that starts with your brand. That starts before anyone actually first applies. So, talk about your brand. Obviously, I would say that if you keep people and they're happy and they write good reviews, that's a good brand. And that's going to spill into your customer service. That's going to spill into your marketing. And that's going to obviously spill into your recruiting. So, talk about some of the steps. Brand is one. I'm sure onboarding, the hiring and recruiting process. Talk about the lifespan of what's important in keeping more employees. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: So, there's a couple of things that I want to pull out on this. So, if we're looking at the entire employee life cycle and you want to optimize it for development and retention, one of the biggest ways that you can do that is looking at what's the story that your organization is telling. And Joel, you talked about brand. But brand is beyond more than just something that you say. It's me as a candidate. Can I look into your organization and look across all levels of the organization and see people like me who are at those levels? And can I, at a quick glance, see that they have staying power and stickiness to the organization? So, brand is not something that you just say. You have to actually live in your organization. You need to speak to that just on the talent attraction side. Then when you actually interview and hire people, that needs to flow all the way through that process as well. And I think one of the big gaps that happens, and I'm approaching this from the context of professional hiring, because that's the world that I come from. So, when we're talking IT, white-collar jobs is generally the lens that I'm talking from. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: When you look at that lens and you wanna optimize for development and retention, while your interviews have to be set up that way, where you have those folks represented in your interview panels, but the big element that you need to be focused on is, what's your onboarding process look like. When you look at retention outcomes, that new hires, onboarding experience plays a massive role on whether you're gonna be able to retain them beyond that first year or not, and one of the interesting things that Yasmeen Duncan, who is the Chief People Officer at Magnolia foods, what she mentioned was that people leaders at all levels, when they have a new hire into their organization, they should be applying the PIP upfront concept in the onboarding process, and when we say PIP, everybody automatically saying, Oh, that sounds crap. No. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: It's really... You need to be crystal clear and gaining agreement with the person that's sitting across from you, what are the job expectations, what are the work styles that I prefer, what are the work styles that you prefer, how do we work through our cadence so that we're deeply aligned on what the job expectations are, what the outcomes are, and all of the stuff down the line, and that's really not happening in a lot of organizations, and then you see this experience where six months down the line, a new hire is floundering, and then we're starting with the progressive discipline or wherever to kind of improve performance. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And by that time, it's too late. So, if you're looking at optimizing for development and retention, one of the big issues is that we're not clear upfront on what the environment is, we're not clear on what the expectations are, we're not clear on what the outcomes are, and we're not actually sitting across from our employees and having those conversations and demonstrating that we care about their success, we talk about caring about their success, but we're not actually putting it into action. Chad: Well, it's interesting, in the military, we have what we call an AAR, so after every task or every mission or what have you, we do an after action review, which is one of those. Did we meet expectations? What happened? You're going through the pretty much the entire mission training session, whatever it might be, but it's continuous learning, and that's one of the things that the military does so much better than corporate America is shit at, is we constantly training and it's a two-thirds, one-third. We're training in prepping two-thirds of the time to be able to get ready for that one-third, and it doesn't seem... And again, the military is more focused on leadership. I went through more leadership schools in my 20 years in the military, then most CEOS and Fortune 500 companies have ever even thought of going through. Chad: Is because it's the part of the actual DNA of what they need in their people, whether they leave in four years or whatnot, so it's interesting now, whether you're good at it or not, that's an entirely different story, but it's like it's ingrained in the process, but why is corporate America, is it just too many resources, it takes up too much time. They just don't think it's worth it. I don't understand why it's not a part of every single corporate structure. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: That's a great question, and I wanna draw back to your experience of the after action report, so I've never served so I can't speak from it from a direct perspective, but that is a great best practice, and it's something that needs to be brought into the corporate world but what you often hear, and I empathize with line level managers because they're often under-resourced and over-staffed, meaning you have one line level manager that's supposed to like oversee and position 15, 20 people for success. So, what are those line level managers reduced to? They're reduced to a list of tasks that they need to check off, are these things done? Are these things done? So, you become a task manager and you reference leadership versus being an actual people leader, so if we look at what your core responsibility is, your responsibility as a line manager is to develop other leaders within your organization and build depth, but if you're never really coaching at that level, and you're constantly tied to just a checklist of things that need to get done in the day, how often are you having those conversations, those coaching and development conversations that demonstrate your commitment to that individual on the team and demonstrates your care for their development and your care for their career path. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: It doesn't happen. And oftentimes, you ask any manager, How's your day, Oh, I've been busy, I've been busy, I'm super busy. Everybody's busy, but the question becomes, What are you focusing your attention on, and I think Chad, you and Joel both referenced this early in the conversation, which is that short-term thinking has reduced us to taking a task-level view on everything that needs to be done from a people, strategy perspective, instead of a development view. And here's where I bring that in. You talk to any individual contributor within an organization, you ask them the question, how does the job that you do serve the broader mission of the organization or the team, and they're gonna look at you more often than not, like you have a horn coming out of your forehead, because why managers are not connecting those dots, they're not tying how the work accomplishes the broader mission vision goals of the organization. Chad: They're not trained to. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, they're not trained to. Chad: They probably don't know. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, they don't. And the interesting part about that is, I talk to executives and senior leaders all the time about this particular issue, and they say, Yeah, it's a massive issue, we don't have enough leadership capabilities at our line level managers, and I ask the question, Well, why is that? And what happens? Oh, we're getting dragged in a fire fighting all the time, and this is from the senior and the executive level, we're fire-fighting all the time. So, what are you doing to fix that? And you don't really get it much in terms of answers, you might see like, Oh, we got this tool in place. Well a tool alone isn't gonna solve anything if you have a crap process, and if you don't really have the broader people strategy along side of it, and then you throw a tool against it, it's just gonna make whatever process that you have that's already bad, worse. So, it's how are you taking the information that you're getting from your tech stack into actionable things that actually build the leadership capability at all levels of the organization. And especially focused on centering what you're doing to the broader benefit and career aspirations of that line-level individual. That's the gap that isn't being met. Joel: You mentioned tools, and listeners of our show know that there is no shortage of tools to help you engage employees, not even getting into upscaling, but just engaging, making them feel good. Are those tools working? You mentioned it doesn't work unless you have the foundation to make it work, but in your experience, whether it's 15Five, Culture Amp, I think you own our organization, are companies coming... Are they saying like, these tools are great. They're working. They're amazing. Or is it like, No, another tool it doesn't work. What are you hearing? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: I'm hearing the latter. Let me give you some context. Here's the problem, and I come from this world, so I'm gonna say some things, it's probably gonna irritate the hell out of a lot of people. Joel: Good. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Like the company I work for is a people analytics platform, so employee engagement, performance management, all that sort stuff. And the problem that exists in the broader world of tech, HR tech, TA tech, whatever, is that we as sellers within that world have been conditioned to believe that our specific tool can solve whatever problem that exists in the world of anybody that we talk to, and that's a big freaking problem because no tool is gonna solve anything, a tool can enable you one way or another, if you have a crap process, a tool can make that crap process, crappier. If you have a good process in place and you have a good people in place, then that tool is gonna enable you to take to that next level. And the reason why I mention this is that there are so many organizations that I've talked to who have more than one platform in place that's supposed to solve the same thing, and I'm not gonna call out any specific ones, but it seems to be prevalent in a lot of organizations where you'll have duplication of products and capabilities in the same environment and you have people saying, Well, none of this works, why did you get that second platform because the first one didn't work. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Well, it's not the platform's issue. You were sold into something, but did you really look at your people and your process and if that's on solid footing to take it to the next level, and I think that's the piece that gets missed. Technology like I look at it as a neutral entity, if you're not sorted on your people and process side, you're gonna have problems putting technology into that because it's just gonna make whatever you have worse. Chad: Well, it's short-sighted. Again, we're looking at things trying to hit the easy button on something that's not easy to fix. Yeah, so it's literally the behavior that we've bought into, and then you have vendors that are selling you the easy button, which is exactly what everybody wants to hear, and the next thing you know, it's just not as easy as you think it is. Joel: I don't know, it sounds like he's saying there's a chance. S?: 60% of the time, it works. Every time. Chad: Not 60%. Joel: Dr. Jay you got... I'm on the ledge, man, you're bumping me out, I'm gonna try to save this on an optimistic note, all the surveys and research that I'm seeing says that Gen Z loves security. They love stability. Maybe it's the pandemic, maybe it's just whatever. But is there hope that the Gen Z generation will embrace sort of loyalty? Stay at companies more often, like, give me something to hold on to. Here, Dr. J. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, you're seeing the people's eyebrow come up to that statement, so it's an interesting statement that you make and question that you ask, and when I think about that question, I would agree with you under this context, unlike Gen X and maybe even some older millennials, Gen Z are truly taking the CEO mindset to heart, and specifically they're taking the CEO mindset from the perspective of you're the CEO of your own career, and you need to prioritize what's important to you and your development. So, if that mindset, which means I'm not gonna be pot-committed to one employer and one job function and one salary as my pathway to security. I'm gonna look at all the different things that I can do in my skill sets and see how I can monetize that and really look at turning that into multiple revenue streams or products for myself as a professional. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And I think that's the way forward, and I tend to agree with that mindset that if you're in the world of work and you want to make yourself relevant until the day you decide you don't wanna work anymore, you should be looking at what are the skills and capabilities that I have and how can I monetize that across a number of different avenues so that I'm never overly committed to one income stream, and that's in stark contrast with what the broader corporate world tells us, they're still operating with that boomer mindset that, hey, you graduate, we're a family, we treat everybody great and blah, blah, blah, you'll be here until you retire, well, they still operate under that mindset, and at the same time, they will whack you tomorrow if earnings report doesn't look the way that it needs to look, so hats off to Gen Z for being not as stupid as Gen X are. Chad: Yeah, well so stability in and what I'm hearing, and what we've heard from a couple of people have we talked to thus far, is that the stability means something different to the generations. The boomers idea of stability is way much different than what Gen Z's look at, what stability is. They're not the same thing. That's what I'm hearing. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah. And the perfect example, so this is an interesting... And that's an interesting point that you bring out, Chad, because my mom and I have the same conversation, so we're Generation Zero immigrants. I wasn't born in the US, and my mom is from the boomer generation, and she can't wrap her head around like what my actual job is. I often say that I have 15 different jobs and I'm involved in a lot of different things. And she's like, This is a terrible accident impression of her, but she'll go time, Jimmy why don't you get a nice government job? It'll be stable. I'm like, Why would I wanna do that? So, that mindset still exists in the world of work where we were all taught Be the CEO of your own career, but what was the meaning of that when we were coming up in the world of work, the meaning of that was, you're beholden to the an employer and you just do whatever you can to stay employed there, and the real meaning of being a CEO of your own career is actually monetizing all the different skills that you have and try to be as much of a stand-alone corporation as you can. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: So, you're never overly committed to one pathway, and that actually puts you in a constant development mindset, and I think organizations would be well served to look at what's happening in younger Gen X-ers, millennials, Gen Z, and how they're approaching the world of work and bake that in to their organizational strategy, how can we get eight hours out of you for this particular job while still giving you the ability to capitalize on all these other aspects of your skill set that gives you the type of freedom that you want, and I think that's probably the way forward and the way organizations need to look at it, if they're really intentional or care about keeping their employees longer is to adopt that mindset that it's not, Hey, you work for us, it's how can we help you get to the things that are important to you? And take you to the next level and whatever your vision is for yourself. Joel: That's Dr. Jim. Can we cheer all everybody, Dr. J, for our listeners who wanna connect with you, where do you send them? Chad: TikTok. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: No. Actually, the easiest place to find me is on LinkedIn, so I'm always active there. You can find me on TikTok. You look for the cascading leadership handle on TikTok and you can find me there. But LinkedIn is the best way. Joel: Chad another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

Dive into the irreverent world of talent acquisition with Michael Goldberg, the Senior Director of TA and Sourcing at US Renal Care, on The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Recorded live from TA Week, this episode is not your typical HR talk. Michael, with over two decades in the recruiting game, shares his unfiltered take on balancing tech and human touch in the industry. Expect a mix of hard-hitting insights, candid anecdotes, and a good dose of humor as Michael talks about transforming decent recruiters into exceptional ones, all while navigating the AI-dominated future of hiring. From snarky remarks to deep dives into the soul of recruiting, this episode is a rollercoaster ride through the highs and lows of talent acquisition. Tune in for an episode that's as much about laughs as it is about learning. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up, everybody? It's Marshall Mathers' favorite podcast, aka The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined, as always, the Thelma to my Louise, Chad Sowash... Chad: Yes. Joel: Is in the house. And we are recording live from TA Week, the Qualified Booth, and we are with Michael Goldberg, Senior Director of TA and Sourcing... Chad: Where? Joel: At US Anal Care. Did I get that right? [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: No. Still not right. It is US Renal Care. Joel: Renal Care. Chad: Renal Care. Michael Goldberg: Renal care. Joel: Renal, anal. Okay. Michael Goldberg: Well, there's a difference. Chad: Joel projects a lot. Let's just... Let's say that. [chuckle] Joel: I'm stuck in dark places, let's put it that way. Let's put it that way. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Yeah, that's all right. That's all right. No. US Renal Care, it's, in the scheme of things, the third largest set of dialysis clinics. We're a billion-dollar company. Chad: Wow. Joel: I get it. You're saving lives, and I'm an asshole for making a joke. I get it. I get it. I get it. [overlapping conversation] Chad: Yes. Yeah. Everybody knows that anyway. That's why they listen. [chuckle] Michael Goldberg: My grandfather died of diabetes four days after my parents got married. [overlapping conversation] Joel: Oh here we go, just stick the knife in. Michael Goldberg: No, it's called the Jewish guilt trip. Joel: Oh, okay. [laughter] Michael Goldberg: That's what that was. Joel: Let's pivot off the guilt trips for a second. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Yes, sir. Joel: Michael, some of our listeners don't know you. Chad: What? Michael Goldberg: No. Joel: Give them the elevator pitch. Michael Goldberg: All right. So my name is Michael Goldberg, and I've been in the recruiting space for, let's just say, 20-plus years, 10 years of HR behind that. Joel: Hello. Michael Goldberg: And my goal is to go into organizations, either mostly full-time, but I've also done contract where I go in and I turn non-producers into producers. I find technology for companies to make them better, faster, more productive. And then finally, I measure. I do a lot of data analytics for the companies that I've done, that I've worked for. And so, yeah, so I believe I bring a lot of tools to the table. And you guys always share great stuff on your podcast. I'm not saying that just to kiss up... [overlapping conversation] Joel: Aw. Chad: Aw. Joel: Say more. Chad: I love this. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Yes. No, it's true. It's true. You guys make it real. Besides animal, you guys make it more real 'cause it's, you know, it's animal. Chad: Is he still... Is he still alive? [overlapping conversation] Joel: I'll take it. I'll take it. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: He is. Chad: Is he still doing some... [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Oh, no, no. Yeah. Chad: Really? Michael Goldberg: In Toronto. Joel: Not incarcerated yet. Michael Goldberg: Not yet. [overlapping conversation] Chad: I didn't know that. I've no clue. I've no clue. Michael Goldberg: No, he's in Toronto. Chad: So what brings you to TA Week? Is this your first TA Week? How many times have you been here? Michael Goldberg: This is my first time live in San Diego. Chad: Okay. Michael Goldberg: And I just finished up my keynote speaker about how to go from being a good recruiter to a great recruiter, and not relying on AI to do your job for you, but what you need to be doing productively: Being curious, being gritty, knowing your business, knowing the financial acumen of your business, being able to talk that business. And then finally, manage your X with a sense of urgency, and quit giving up so easily just because you can't find them on Indeed or LinkedIn. Chad: [laughter] Well, pretty soon, they're gonna get kicked off LinkedIn 'cause it's gonna be too damn expensive. Now, quick question though. Because you're talking about using technology to not get lazy but to do your job more super enhanced... Michael Goldberg: Effectively. I think productivity is probably the better word, right? So that's what AI does for me, is it helps me to get the thinking of ideas. And then there's something, I don't know if you guys have tried this out, but I strongly recommend it. I'm not getting paid to say this, but it's called EQBuddy. It's new. Do y'all know Marcus Sawyer? He's in the recruiting space, was a sourcer, lives in California. He created an AI tool just for recruiting... Chad: Yeah? Michael Goldberg: And I'm starting to play around with it. It actually produces some pretty good information. Chad: So question, 'cause everybody's talking about or at least we've had people talk about, recruiter's jobs gonna be gone. Michael Goldberg: No. Chad: This is all gonna be... This is gonna be processed out. Everything's gonna be done through, not just AI, but through better processes, technology, and so on and so forth. What say you, Michael Goldberg? Michael Goldberg: AI will not replace people. Chad: Okay. Michael Goldberg: AI is a tool to help recruiters and recruiting leaders and social, I guess employer brand folks, be more productive and to cut out some of the, "Let me reinvent the wheel," right? Because that's what everybody says. "Well, I wanna come up with the best thing." Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: And so they're gonna try to use AI to give them the information and make them look like a superstar. And I say, people can see through that B-S. What you shouldn't be using it for, and I have a feeling that people are using it for, is to make human decisions; to decide on candidates, putting the resume in, two resumes and say, pick the better candidate. Chad: But we've had platforms out there that have done that for years. We've had applicant tracking systems that have scoring. This is before the "AI revolution" that's been happening, right? So this isn't new, Michael. We've been trying to... [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: No, it's not. Chad: We've been trying to do this shit for years. So what makes this different? Because, again, we've been ranking candidates wrong or right for years. How is this any different? Michael Goldberg: It's different in that, again, it's about productivity. And I think it's able to pull information faster, where back in the day when we were... We'd put A or B or C, or no or yes or no. We'd write those on, not on the resumes, but somewhere... Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: Where you knew who to pick. Does that mean, what? 10 years ago, 15 years ago? Now AI is, I think you leave resumes out of it and it's just, "Hey, give me the latest BLS stats from XYZ. If I need to compare something to my data, if I need a national... And that's what I think it's for. It just, to me, it brings it up faster, but you have to... You take the data for what it is. And I still think there's just some human brain work that you have to do. We can't... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Let me push back on that a little bit. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Yeah, please. Joel: Because I buy into the statement of, "AI won't take your job, but someone who understands AI will take your job." Layoffs are happening. Companies are doing more with less. And if we have more robo-recruiters, if you will, cyborg recruiters... [laughter] Joel: Don't we need less recruiters? I understand the recruiting profession will be around, but don't you need less of them? Or are we gonna bring back all the unemployed recruiters back to recruiting? Michael Goldberg: I'm worried for the people that are looking right now, because you're right. I think that there will be some form of robo- some tool invented. [overlapping conversation] Joel: Augmented recruiter. Michael Goldberg: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: Whatever it is, right? Chad: Oh, they're out there already. There are platforms out there now that are talking about being able to at least cut the recruiter job around 80%. Michael Goldberg: Well, we're here in the Qualify Booth, or humanly or whatever... You're able to ask quite online questions by using your phone. Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: And to me, yes, that replaces things, but to me, what I don't think is gonna go away is the conversations that recruiters need to have with candidates to get specific questions. Because I know of an interesting thing that I'm not gonna talk about who, where somebody did an interview and it was an AI chatbot. Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: The candidate was the AI chatbot. Joel: Yeah. Chad: [chuckle] Yeah. Oh, yeah. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: And was able to hack into the system, record the system. Chad: Yes. Yeah. It's gonna happen on both sides. Michael Goldberg: Yes. There will be less recruiters doing the work... Joel: Okay. Michael Goldberg: But I still believe that the good ones that are... The ones that are working, and no disrespect to the people that aren't working, but AI will take those retail jobs, fast food jobs, nurses, social workers, dieticians, which are in our world, IT people, I don't think it will replace those people. I think it's, you're better off using a bot to help you recruit where you always... For Christmas or holiday time recruiting, I think that's where it's gonna flourish. Joel: Okay. So the cream will rise in your future. And if you're just some hack taking notes and... [laughter] Joel: Phone calls, your life is short in this profession. Michael Goldberg: I believe so. Joel: Is that a good summary? Okay. Michael Goldberg: That's a great summary. Chad: So in today's landscape where you're talking about building great recruiters, what is that number one priority that a great recruiter needs to focus on? On tasks or whatever it is, what do they need to focus on first? Michael Goldberg: Tangibly? Chad: Yes. Michael Goldberg: To me, in my world, what I always try to do is, I want my recruiters working on the positions that have been open the longest and there is still a need to recruit. 'Cause we ask, we'll say, "Hey, do you still... " The recruiter will say, "Do you still need the job?" Yes, we do. So if I see a position that is more than 60 days old, I'm on my recruiters saying, "This is a priority. You need to fill at least half of them." I did that two weeks ago where I've got... I had a couple of people that had 11, 12 positions that have been open on average of 120-plus days. One of my recruiters, shout-out, Natasha, filled eight of those 11 jobs in two weeks, because she knew what she had to do. She made it a priority. She went out and sourced. She used her curiosity to build search strings and bring people in. She didn't wait around for them to apply. And that's the other thing. If there are recruiters that are still waiting for people to apply, no... [laughter] Michael Goldberg: It's not gonna be around anymore. Joel: And that's not good for job boards. Michael Goldberg: No, it's not. Joel: Okay. Okay. Michael Goldberg: No it is not. Joel: So let's talk about sourcing for a second. [overlapping conversation] Chad: Depends on where they're sourcing. They could be sourcing from job boards. Michael Goldberg: Indeed. Chad: They could be sourcing from... Joel: I see what you did there with the Indeed comment. Chad: LinkedIn... Michael Goldberg: You like that? [laughter] Chad: Leading the witness. Joel: Let's talk about sourcing real quick. LinkedIn, by all accounts, is putting a stranglehold, a walled garden, a huge moat to kill the competition, funnel people into its platform sort of exclusively. They're redacting certain things now. It's becoming harder to source. And my contention is, the freaks and geeks of the sourcing world back in '05, right? The Shelly's, the Steve... [laughter] Michael Goldberg: I remember. Yeah, yeah. Joel: You know the group I'm talking about. They were sort of pushed in the background when all the sourcing tools came out: The hire tools, the HiringSolved. Now that LinkedIn has sufficiently strangled those businesses to death, are we gonna see a rise of the sourcing? You said Boolean strings, which kind of... [laughter] Michael Goldberg: It's old school. Joel: It caught my attention. Are we gonna go back to the future with sourcing, and the freaks and geeks are gonna kind of take over that world again? Michael Goldberg: That's a great question. I don't know. I think there's a possibility of that, but there's still a lot of information out there. There's still so many tools out there, that you don't have to rely on LinkedIn... Chad: But we do. Joel: Certain do. Michael Goldberg: Do you know what Steve Levy calls it? It's the OxyContin for recruiters. Chad: No, I totally get it. I totally get it. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: It's terrible, terrible reference. Chad: It's a heroin drip. I mean... [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: It is totally a drip. Chad: Yes. Michael Goldberg: And so I think it, you will have... It'll force recruiters and sourcers to start picking up the phone more... Joel: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: And try it once... 'Cause now that we can find that contact information, I know LinkedIn's gonna allegedly squeeze out the fact that they're not gonna be able to share their data or sell their... They're not gonna work with SeekOut or hireEZ. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: They'll be somebody else that comes around and work around and says, "Let me pull more information from different sources other than LinkedIn." Because in my world, LinkedIn... Joel: Well, there's no incentive to launch a company that does that. It's gonna be the individual rogue, smart recruiter... Michael Goldberg: That knows how to... Joel: That does it themselves. No one's gonna launch another SeekOut anytime soon. Michael Goldberg: No. Joel: No one's gonna launch another competitor because they've seen what happens. Michael Goldberg: True, true. Joel: It's gonna be the individual that's smart enough to figure out how to leverage Google or leverage these new search engines or ChatGPT or whatever to get to the best candidates. Yes? Michael Goldberg: Well, yeah. And you look at... What is Microsoft's new GPT? I think it's connected to ChatGPT but... Joel: Copilot or? Michael Goldberg: Copilot. Chad: Copilot. Michael Goldberg: Yeah, have y'all played around with that? It's actually kind of cool. I'm just starting to get it. But Bing, like someone said, add Bing to your phone... Joel: Yeah? Michael Goldberg: And you can get more information on Bing than you can on Google with the use of Copilot, 'cause it's smarter than what ChatGPT is doing. Joel: Yeah. And there's a new search engine, forgetting the name. Bezos just gave it a lot of money. Chad: Oh, Cloud? Joel: Perplexity or... Chad: Oh, okay. Joel: Anyway. So there will be search engines. Well, we see a resurgence in the days where Alta Vista and... Michael Goldberg: Oh my gosh. Joel: Ask Jeeves, and there's all these different search engines that can find people. Time will tell. But Google's gonna get a little bit of competition, I think, in the near future. Michael Goldberg: Absolutely. Here's my thing. Indeed and LinkedIn, they're finite sets of information. You can find twice as much information by just going to Bing, going to this new Bezos thing, which I have never heard of but I will definitely take a look at it. But also start looking at ChatGPT, the dropdown, and it gives you all these different choices, you can do Copilot creation, you can do SEO generation, the whole nine yards. That's what we need to be using AI for to help us stand out and to help us find the right types of people. 'Cause if I can put a profile together and I know who I wanna hire, I can use something like an AI tool to help me come up with the basics. But then I gotta use this to get there, and I gotta use this... Joel: He's pointing to his head, listeners, by the way. Michael Goldberg: Yes. Oh, sorry. I thought we were on camera. Joel: Oh, we're on all the mediums, baby. We're on everything. Michael Goldberg: I'm pointing to my head. But use your brain and use your heart. Because you have to give a shit. You have to care. And that's the one thing that I think is missing from recruiters these days. It's just like, "All right, I'm gonna go fill positions. That's it." Now, I'm old school so I can say that. But I don't mind picking up the phone. I don't use LinkedIn to do my sourcing. I use hireEZ, obviously 'cause we have the tool and I wanna be an example for my team to use it. They're not using it enough. They need to before that lemon is squeezed. Chad: Yes. Well, but it's gonna get squeezed. Michael Goldberg: Big time. Chad: It's gonna get squeezed. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: We just don't know the timing of it. Chad: Right. So, back to LinkedIn. This is very anti-competitive practice from a company that's owned by Microsoft. Right? Who is... Michael Goldberg: It's a total monopoly. Chad: The last organization that was hit by antitrust, right? Michael Goldberg: Right. Chad: So, I guess the question is, as a company not another vendor... 'Cause SeekOut, they have reasons, right? As a company, a hiring company, what would your words be to LinkedIn at this point? 'Cause you spend money on it. Michael Goldberg: I do. Don't do what you're threatening to do. It's not good for business. It's a pure monopoly. You'll have the antitrust law people all over you. I just think LinkedIn is shooting themselves basically in the chest. Chad: Do you think other practitioners will actually step up and say the exact same thing? Because over the years, we've seen this stupid shit happen left and right. During HighQ, the actual case against HighQ, nobody wanted to be made public, that they were behind HighQ. Right? Now we're here because of that case. And LinkedIn winning. Right? Michael Goldberg: Right. Chad: Are we finally going to get HR practitioners to get out of the goddamn corner and stand up and start to say, "This is wrong, this is bullshit?" Michael Goldberg: Absolutely. It's interesting, I was talking with Jerry Christman. I don't know if he's coming by, but he's getting through career crossroads. He's getting a set of, I think he said 30, right? 30 TA leaders. And he's talking to them next week about this very thing because they're all freaking out. I'm not freaking out because it hadn't happened yet. There's nothing I can do. But you know what? We're gonna have to be better at what we do in order to get over that hump. So what I would just implore LinkedIn is, don't do that to everybody because everybody's on OxyContin and they rely on your tool and you'll still... Yes, you can make more money. Maybe you're trying to get to four to six trillion dollars. But Jesus, how much money do you really need? Joel: How many yachts can you ski behind? [laughter] Michael Goldberg: Thank you very much. Joel: Michael, I want to go... I love your comment about the heart. And I think so many recruiters rely on technology and it's a churn and burn game. You also probably know that we're very popular with the young people, Michael. [laughter] Michael Goldberg: Not me. I'm a grandpa. Joel: And I think a lot of young recruiters are so tech-focused and not heart-focused, which is based on your comment. What advice would you give a young recruiter coming up to not just focus on tech, but the heart? Why is that important? Michael Goldberg: The heart is important because the heart shows that you care. So like I mentioned in my presentation, I started with Marriott making 6.50 an hour, right? And it taught me to have heart to care for people, to take care of people. 'Cause I didn't want my name on a Commack card going like, "What did you do, Goldberg?" Hell, I was even... Because I went out of the way for somebody that... I worked in Bethesda at the Marriott near the Mormon church. It's the only Marriott that Bill Marriott and his family owns on Pooks Hill Road. Go visit it. It's an old as hell hotel. This pastor of the Mormon church comes in. He says, "I was just in a terrible accident," but I sent him... I had a heart and I sent him cookies, 'cause they don't drink. So I sent him cookies, and I sent them some flowers, to him and his family, and I said, "I hope tomorrow is better." He put this nice Jewish young man into his sermon in front of the entire Mormon church. It's because I care. Michael Goldberg: And I think if you care about the people you're recruiting, and you're not crapping on candidate experience, and you're checking in with them and you're communicating with your hiring managers, that's your heart saying, "I really care about what I do every day." The technology, again, it's just a tool and it makes your job easier. But I don't think recruiting is as easy as everybody thinks it is. How many times have you all, have people, young folks come up to you and said, "Huh, what do you think? Should I get into recruiting?" I'm like, "Not if you don't have the heart for it." 'Cause you're gonna be beaten up. It's the most thankless job. God damn, I love waking up every day, and there is nothing that gives me pure emotional satisfaction that when I offer a job to somebody... Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: They hearing their voice of joy... Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: That's my caffeine. I drink coffee, but that's my caffeine every time. Chad: There it is, kids. We're talking about have a heart, for God's sakes. And he is talking to you, Cheesman. This is Michael Goldberg. Michael, if somebody wants to connect with you, where would you send them? Michael Goldberg: I would send them... Chad: To LinkedIn. Michael Goldberg: I would. [laughter] Michael Goldberg: But since you won't be able to find me on LinkedIn, you can connect with me on Facebook. Joel: Since he's been canceled. [laughter] Michael Goldberg: Since I've been canceled. The best way is to reach out michael.goldberg@usrenalcare.com. Feel free to email me, any folks looking. I don't know of any jobs, but I'm happy to help you network. Happy to help you think about what you want to do next because... Chad: A man with a heart, kids. Michael Goldberg: A man with a heart. [overlapping conversation] Joel: A man who cares, who works for US Renal Care. Michael Goldberg: There we go, Cheesman. Nice job, my man. [overlapping conversation] Joel: Oh, the irony. Chad, that is another one in the can. We are live from TA Week in the Qualify Booth. Michael Goldberg: Thank you. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Well, thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, with Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses, and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

In case you missed it, automation, ranking candidates, DEI and managing applicants are all pretty popular solutions in the HR tech stratosphere. But all things for a 80 percent of the non-enterprise market? Well, that's a tough task to say that least, but startup SmartRank thinks they've got the secret sauce, promising to stack-rank and filter job applicants without using a resume, and helping companies achieve their DE&I initiatives by removing unconscious bias from the screening process. That's not all, but you get the idea. Do they have a better mousetrap or just another pile of mouse droppings? Gotta listen to find out. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Like Shark Tank, then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover kids, the Chad and Cheese podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Oh yeah. It's Quentin Tarantino's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is Firing Squad. And I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. And as always, the jewels to my Vincent, Chad Sowash is in the house and we welcome victim, I mean guest, Keith Hulen to the show. [applause] Joel: Keith is founder and CEO of SmartRank. SmartRank stack-ranks and filters job applicants without using a resume. Keith, welcome to the podcast, and more importantly, welcome to Firing Squad. Keith Hulen: Appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me. Joel: You're welcome. You're welcome. So, a lot of our listeners don't know your company, but more than that probably don't know you. So let's get into a little bit about you, the person. What makes Keith tick? Keith Hulen: Yeah. So I live in Denver, Colorado. I'm married. I got two girls, 10 and 12 years old, and I've got a dog. And we love going up to the mountains and hiking and playing sports and doing all the outdoor activities you should do if you live in Colorado. Joel: How many vests do you own? [laughter] How many Patagonia North Face vests do you on there? Keith Hulen: That's not fair. Chad: Flannel. Do you have a full closet of flannel? That's the question. [laughter] Joel: It may be the law in Denver, you must own at least 10 vests. Chad: And they have to have at least two or three of them have to have weed patches on them. [laughter] Keith Hulen: Yeah. You can get away with it if you own a Subaru. That's the one exception. If you own a Subaru, then you don't have to have all those other things. Joel: Oh, oh, he's found a loophole in the Denver law system. Keith Hulen: 1980s Subaru brat. Yes, a Subaru brat. Joel: I like that. I like that. All right. All right, Keith. I like it. I like it. Well, Chad, tell him what is won by being a participant on Firing Squad. Chad: You got it. Welcome to Firing Squad, Keith. This is how it's gonna go. At the sound of the bell, you're gonna have two minutes to pitch SmartRank. At the end of two minutes, we're gonna hit you with about 20 minutes of Q&A. Be sure to be concise. You're gonna get hit by the crickets. It means tighten your shit up. At the end of Q&A, you'll receive one of these three from both of us. Big applause. Like a Mac McClung dunk contest. You're killing it. Big boy. [laughter] Golf clap. Just like unranked Ohio State men's basketball team upsetting Purdue. That's right, I said it. We're saying you have a chance. If you work hard, you got a chance. I love it. And last but not least, the Firing Squad. This is worse than the lack of defense during an NBA All Stars game for God's sake. Scrap the idea and move out my friend. Keith, are you ready for firing squad? Keith Hulen: I'm ready. Let's do it. Joel: At least he has legal weed and mushrooms to comfort the blow if he does get the squad. All right, Keith, pitch this thing in one, two. Keith Hulen: Yeah. So I think everybody knows that the hiring process is broken, right? It's inefficient, it's ineffective, it's biased, it's even expensive and the list goes on. But I mean, nobody likes it, right? And I would argue that the root cause for most of that dysfunction stems from two things. One, nobody ever defines exactly what the qualifications are that are needed for the roles. So everybody, like the hiring managers, the recruiters, the candidates, they're all interpreting qualifications differently and subjectively, and essentially everybody's kind of speaking a different language. And two, the processes and tools like legacy ATSs, resumes, job descriptions, even intake meetings, they haven't changed in decades. And so even when everything else around talent acquisitions change, like job boards and one click apply and even AI and the candidates themselves, TA has unfortunately not changed very much. So SmartRank is a next generation applicant screening and tracking software that completely automates the job applicant screening process. Keith Hulen: It stack ranks and filters every single job applicant. It provides hiring managers with the candidates that match their exact qualifications, not kind of, or sort of. And we do all this without needing or using a resume. And the recruiters are pumped because they save like upwards of 90% of their screening time. They don't have to be a subject matter expert or carry that burden. Hiring managers are only looking at the candidates that they're interviewing that are pretty much pre-qualified, so they're happier and applicants like actually having a chance at getting an interview. Crazy kind of concept there, right? So it's probably one of the reasons we have like 10 times the average completion rate. So increases productivity, increases hiring manager engagement creates actionable and meaningful DE&I, provides data analytics, it helps with compliance and legal. The list just keeps going on. Oh, and it's a better applicant experience overall. So we're the only ATS that our clients actually love, that people in TA actually love. I'll leave it at that. Joel: Recruiters are pumped, Chad. He said recruiters are pumped. SFX: Aih papi! Joel: Wow, that's a lot to live up to Keith. All right. Let's talk about the name for a second. SmartRank, pretty self-explanatory, I guess, but you got the.ai, if I go to.com, it takes me to some dynamo.com page. How'd you land land on SmartRank? Have you tried to buy the.com? Were there other names that were silver medalists in this race? Talk about it. Keith Hulen: Well, smartrank.com wasn't available unless you wanted to pay an arm and a leg. So we went with AI, but also in addition to that, we always intended to have an AI component to SmartRank. And so at first we just built the software, but then later we added in the AI components, which is really, the short of it is really based around creating really, really amazing questions and answers and scores. Joel: All right. I guess I'll go with that. You're a sales guy by history. Why this company? Why this idea? What made you so excited about it? Keith Hulen: Yeah, so I've been a hiring manager for 20 plus years and every hiring manager I ever worked alongside their least favorite part of being a leader was always the hiring process. And I was no exception to that. And that's still the case today. Like everybody that has to be involved in recruiting just hates it. Just hates it, right? The applicants are not happy. The hiring managers are never happy. And then even the recruiters themselves, they are constantly frustrated. So when I decided I wanted to start my own company, I thought this is an area that there seems to be some really low hanging fruit, because everybody hates it. Joel: All right. So you were found in 2020 according to the internets. You haven't raised money from what I can tell. You've been a bootstrapped operation. Does no one want to give you money? Is that by choice? Are you looking to raise some money? What's up with the capital situation? Keith Hulen: Yeah, so we bootstrapped for the first year and a half or so, but we did raise two rounds of, call it friends and family or pre-seed rounds. So we've raised over 1.1 million in outside funding in addition to what we've financed ourselves. Joel: Crunchbase has failed me, Chad. Crunchbase has failed me. [laughter] Keith Hulen: By the way, it's not your fault. When we first started the company and we had no idea what our name was gonna be, it was called Paradigm. So it's probably underneath a different name. So there you go. Chad: I'm not even going down that rabbit hole, stackrank dot whatever. Good move. Good move. Okay. So an ATS, everybody hates their ATS. Keith Hulen: Everyone. Chad: Except yours, apparently. But you don't need a resume. So take me through the process. How does somebody actually apply and then how do you fix the definition of qualifications? Because that doesn't happen on the candidate side. Definition of qualifications and the inability to evolve as we've seen tech over the years. What do you do to fix those problems? Keith Hulen: So I think to answer that, we gotta first look at how does pretty much every ATS on the planet work today, right? So an applicant comes in, they apply through some online job application, and they submit their resume, cover letter, and then they a lot of times end up filling out all that same information, which they also absolutely hate, right? Chad: Yes, yes. Keith Hulen: Now you can look at the recruiter side of things and what are they looking at? They're looking at a, usually almost exclusively a chronological list of applicants. So the date and time in which they came in and name. Those are the only two data points they look at. So what do they do? They start opening up each and every one of them. They have the job description. Chad: Okay. Can't go through the entire process, can't go through the entire process. What I wanna know is if you're not using a resume, what are you using? And whatever you're using, is that actual proof that the person can do the job? Keith Hulen: Yes. So it's highly specific, multiple choice or multi-select questions that have a score associated with every single answer. And those questions and answers are ultimately and this is the really important part, they're ultimately derived from the actual hiring manager for that role at that company. So for example, it would be something like a job description would say something like, must be proficient in Ruby on Rails. That means nothing totally ambiguous, totally subjective. Chad: Yes. Keith Hulen: Nobody knows what that means. Chad: So do you actually put a Ruby on Rails test on there to prove that they are, "they can pass the test, which means they're proficient?" How do you actually help them through that process? Keith Hulen: Yeah, so we would ask them a question like, which of the following best describes your level of proficiency as it relates to Ruby on Rails? And one of those answers might be like, I can build non-trivial queries with active record model associations and scopes and I'm comfortable with RSpec and dynamic text fixture generation. Now that's the level of detail the hiring managers actually want to know. And that's just what they never end up getting today. Now we can also put in skills challenges, but I do want to differentiate. We're not trying to replace coding challenges, right? I think those are great. We do have some skills-based type questions in there, but really at the end of the day, it's about stack ranking and then taking that top of the stack rank and then bringing those in for an interview, those in for the coding assessments. Chad: Okay. You can ask me questions and I can have ChatGPT on the side to be able to give me great answers. Let's say, right? Why are we not testing? Because that's what actually defines qualifications, right? Or certifications. So the question is the definition of qualifications, it gets thrown out the window when you see a great candidate, right? The question is how do you see, how do you identify a great candidate in an applicant tracking system? That's one of the biggest fuck ups that any system has today. How can you do that? Keith Hulen: Yeah. So the way that they're identified is, so you're an applicant, you answer, let's say 12 very detailed qualification questions like the Ruby on Rails example I just gave. You're literally stack ranked. So that's who they're picking, right? They're not gonna focus on the bottom of that. They're not gonna go to the bottom. The reason that like skills assessments, we're a screening solution, right? We're a screening and applicant tracking system, but screening only works if it's fast and it's easy. And it's very relevant to the role. If you ask somebody at the application stage to take a 45-minute coding assessment, you're gonna get zero applicants, right? No one's gonna do that. So you have to be able to screen them down, get that stack rank, top of the stack rank list, and then those are the ones that they're going to focus all of their time and energy on, better interviews. And that's why we have shorter time to fill in all those things because it's just practical. There's no magic happening. We just ask a 100% of the applicants, which of these qualifications do you have or do you not have? They answer them. And then the rest is pretty much up to to the software to handle the stack ranking. Chad: So the main value out of this is being able to identify who is qualified or at least meets the qualifications, stack ranking them to make it easier for recruiters to actually jump in and ask that individual into an interview. Do you have an interview portion of the applicant tracking system? Or do you send it off to a point solution? Keith Hulen: No, we have a full blown applicant tracking system. Interview, interview scorecards, offer letters, all of that exists in our system. But to be honest with you, all of that was really easy to build. That's the ATS piece of it. And that was very easy. Now, we also tried to solve some other problems that exist down there, but really the main reason that you would purchase SmartRank is because of that screening and selection process, because that is the number one most time consuming activity a recruiter has today. And I'm gonna say this and it may not be very popular, but it's also the thing that they are the least qualified to do, right? I mean, let's just face it. If you're a recruiter and you're hiring for an FP&A and a developer and a salesperson, you're not a subject matter expert in any of those roles, especially if you've never done them before. And even if you have, you're not clairvoyant, you don't know exactly what that hiring manager is looking for. Chad: So, what do we need the recruiters for at this point? Because we can just send those top smart ranked individuals directly to the hiring manager. And we can get them automatically on an interview schedule, right? What the hell do we need the recruiters for? Keith Hulen: Well, I think that there's still some areas for them as far as like, I don't think we're totally away from needing to build relationships with these candidates. I don't think we're away from them having to build relationships with the hiring managers. They are still in our system helping to facilitate creating the questions. I would say they're kind of quarterbacking everything. They just don't have to try to be in the weeds trying to do things that they're just not qualified to do. Joel: I think Chad has a good point in that we run into and talk to a lot of startups where if the buyer believes you're trying to replace them or put them out of a job, it becomes an amazing hurdle to clear to sell your product to companies if they think I'm gonna be unemployed if we buy this. Have you run into that? How do you address that when you do. Keith Hulen: If that has come up, they haven't expressed it to me. I'll say this, one of the things when I first did my analysis, we interviewed hundreds and hundreds of recruiters in the beginning and one of the things I kept hearing consistently is they work 14-hour days. And I'm like, no way. You don't work 14 hour days. What are you doing for 14 hours a day? And I heard that so often. And so then I started to dig into that a little bit further and ask why. And the reality is because almost everything they do is manual and tedious in nature, almost everything that they do. So creating this automation doesn't replace their job, but it allows for them to spend time on better things. I'll give you one example. Passive recruiting. Most of these recruiters are just dealing with the influx of the people coming in reactively, right? These are people that are applying on their website or whatever, but they're not going out and trying to find the best person at that other company and pull them away from there. Why? 'cause they don't have time. They've got 450 applicants to review. They don't even have enough time to glance at somebody else. Joel: So it's not really been a hurdle from your perspective at the company? Keith Hulen: No. No, our recruiters are happy. Yeah. Joel: So from your website, it's not super clear that you're an ATS or at least it wasn't for me. So I'm curious, do you integrate with other ATSs? By being an ATS, do you create a competitive nature with them to say like, no, we're not gonna let you integrate? Because I feel like these pre-screenings and testing solutions are best when they're integrated with the sites that people are already using on on a daily basis. What have you seen with other ATSs and competitiveness? Keith Hulen: Yeah, we're in the process of updating our website for the third time. So it's been it's been a bit of a struggle. Joel: So will the new one be clear that you're an ATS or? Keith Hulen: Yes, it will. That's like our number one initiative on this new rebranding of the website. But... Chad: How do you say you need marketing without saying you need marketing? Keith Hulen: Yes. Joel: Oh, we'll get to marketing in a second, Keith. Don't worry. Keith Hulen: Yeah. So so back to kind of the question at hand, like do we integrate? The short answer is we can integrate, we've set up an integration with a big name ATS, but the reality is that every single client that has used us has ripped out their existing ATS and put us in because there's so much overlap between what we can do as far as like you brought up earlier, like interviewing and scorecards and offer letters. And we are a full applicant tracking system, right? So we can, but I like to always kind of push our clients to be like, why? Like, what is it that you're getting out of JazzHR or whatever that you just absolutely can't live without? Well, we need interview scorecards. Great, we got those. So what else do you need? Joel: Okay. So more competitive than collaborative is the future of the company, I would say. You guys have been around going on four years now. Your headcount has barely moved. Typically, I'd like to see a headcount increase at least of salespeople that are out there pounding the pavement and hitting the phones. So, unless LinkedIn failed me, like Crunchbase did, what's up with headcount? When are you gonna start adding salespeople? Keith Hulen: Yeah. It's a good question. It's also a loaded question, so I'll... [chuckle] Joel: It's what we do. Keith Hulen: I'll give this answer. Yeah, I'll give this answer. So we've struggled to be able to really get folks to kind of rip out their ATS for many different reasons. But what I typically, the way that our meetings typically go is they'll say, these are our problems. And then we address each and every one of those very uniquely and specifically. And then I'll show them a demo and they'll say, "I love this. This is like one of the best softwares I've ever seen in this space." And then it comes time to say, "Well, great, get rid of your ATS and use ours. And they're like, "I don't know if I wanna do that." I'm like, why? Keith Hulen: What is it that's really holding you back? And there's not really any solid reasons. It's usually just kind of like, we just don't want change what we have. I think there's a lot of people that have made those changes in the past and switched an ATS and it was miserable and took them six to nine months to switch over. That has never happened with our clients, but that absolutely has happened. So I came into this and we geared up and I hired some additional people ready to go and hit it saying, all right, we're about to blow up here. And then I hit a reality check, which is a lot of the folks are just a lot more risk averse than I had anticipated, not a lot, significantly more risk averse than I anticipated that they would be. Chad: Keith, how long have you been in this industry? Keith Hulen: Well, I mean, I've been hiring people for almost, I don't know, 22, 23 years now, but I've been in this space, like, living this 14 hours a day for four years, coming up on four years now. Chad: Okay, so what about the rest of the team? Is there anybody else who has been in this space, especially from a technology standpoint, for a good amount of time, or are they somewhat newbies too? Keith Hulen: So I wouldn't say like recruiters, that are on our team, but like, tech as far as like our developers that are full-time, that have worked on our application and stuff, they have worked on similar types of HR tech. Chad: What about leadership? You've got yourself, what about other leaders? Because right out of the gate, you're talking about things that we already know, right? It's hard, cost of change, movement slow. Welcome to HR, welcome to talent acquisition, right? This is nothing new, Keith. This is what we deal with. Is there anybody who has long-standing, from a leadership standpoint, in this space? Keith Hulen: Only our advisor team. So, not a leadership team within the C-suite of our company, but from an advisor standpoint, there's some really well-known names that I showed our software to, explained our methodology and they were pretty psyched about it. Chad: So, are they on board as actual advisors with the team? Okay, great, great. So, when you're talking about the actual total addressable market, are you looking at SMB? You mentioned Jazz. Jazz is not an enterprise product. So, are you mainly SMB? Keith Hulen: SMB and I would also say mid-market. Initially, we really... And by the way, those are nebulous terms, right? What does that even mean? This is just like what I... Chad: It's not enterprise. Anything not enterprise is what it is. Keith Hulen: And what is enterprise, right? Like, see that... Chad: Big fucking companies. Keith Hulen: So, yeah, mid-market. So, call it anywhere between 500 to 2,500 employees. And then I would say that's where we focused initially. And again, we were finding that they were so entrenched with their ATS's that we went down market and we started working with more SMBs. So, call that anywhere from like 80 up to 500 employees where they're not established in their ATS. Some of them don't even have an ATS in some cases. And that we've seen quite a bit more success with. Chad: So, when you're talking about the SMB less than enterprise side of the house, how are you guys actually going to market from a sales standpoint? Are you going direct to brand? Are you trying to create partnerships? How are you guys effectively trying to penetrate the market from a sales marketing standpoint? Keith Hulen: We've had a number of partnership conversations, but I'd say it's been more of a direct kind of approach, which frankly is kind of challenging these days, right? Like email, cold calling and stuff, that's just dead. It just doesn't work anymore. So, I'd say it's less of a shotgun approach, more of a very specific scope approach where we're looking at companies that we know have these problems, introductions by our advisors and other folks that they know that these companies have a problem. And then a lot of it's coming through referrals and things like that right now. Very organic. Chad: Mainly referrals into the SMB market. Keith Hulen: Yeah. And I'd say we've struck out with the different marketing avenues we've taken. We've struck out with a lot of those. It's just been tough to kind of go at it. Chad: Yes, it's SMB. So, when you're talking about the actual business model itself, I would assume it's seats. Is it a platform fee with seats? Talk a little bit about pricing. Keith Hulen: Yeah. So, it's based on licenses, but they're recruiter licenses. So you have one person on your team, it's 300 bucks a month. We don't do annual contracts. We do quarterly contracts. It's less risk. If you love what you saw and you really want to give it a shot, you're only committed to one quarter at a time. With that being said, our clients haven't left, but I think that's just because the proof's in the pudding, right? Once you start using it changes your overall outlook. Chad: So, you're looking at revenue from an MRR standpoint as opposed to an ARR because of the way that the model rolls out. Is that correct? Keith Hulen: Yeah. That's right. Yep. And then the more recruiters they have, then we have like tiered pricing. So, like two to five recruiters, six to ten. So, we kind of gear it in there. So, it's not like nickel and diming them for every single license that they're purchasing. Chad: Okay. So, what do you see as the biggest threat for you and the organization today? Keith Hulen: Our biggest threat I think is, well, it's two things. One, it's cash, right? Cash is always kind of a very important thing for any startup. And I would say exposure. One of the biggest challenges that we have is, you brought this up earlier. I told you about our organic marketing, but that takes a long time. And referrals and building up your client bases like that just takes a long time. So, if I get a client or a prospect on with one of our actual clients that's using the software, it's usually game over at that point. They're like, yes, okay, this sounds amazing. Because our clients truly... This isn't hyperbole, they truly love, love, love our software. I just can't get it in the hands of enough people to actually use it and really kind of build that message. Joel: Let's chat about marketing. We hit sales in the last round of questions. One of the more depressing research that I did on the company was the marketing side of things. So, I'm going to read you a laundry list and you tell me what the hell is going on. Your last blog post was April of 2023. You only have 306 followers on LinkedIn after four years of business, roughly less than 100 per year. Your logos are mostly nobodies on the site. Typically, give it away for free just to get somebody that we can all recognize on the site. Your YouTube channel, which you actually have content, you have 15 subscribers. Your careers page has no jobs on it. If I knew nothing about you and I just looked at your footprint on social media and the internet, I would say, are they still in business? So, help me understand why the fall down on marketing? What are you guys doing to change it? You said you're redoing the website, but it seems like there's a real lack of focus on getting the name and building the brand. Keith Hulen: You're not wrong in any of those things you just said and it has been a challenge for us to build the brand and things. I'm not a marketing person. I'm a salesperson, but lacking any types of additional funding and things like that, you end up doing everything, right? Multiple roles. So, marketing, sales, investor relations, customer support sometimes, product. Your hands are in everything. And I would say, we are one of those types of companies where that's exactly one of our Achilles heels is my hands are in kind of everything. And I just struggle to be able to try to get a really consistent marketing theme going. Now, we have hired some agencies to help us, but like I said, we have not had any success with any of the agencies that we've hired thus far doing anything in that realm. Joel: One last question, and I think we'll hit pricing before we leave, but the competitive landscape, we talked a lot about ATSs, but the whole testing thing is huge. TestGorilla, Hiring Branch, Paradox, like a lot of companies are in this space. Are you getting hit on both fronts, like the ATS competition as well as the testing? And that seems like a really hard thing to balance. Keith Hulen: As far as like dealing against competitors like... Joel: Like is TestGorilla a competitor? Keith Hulen: I would not consider them a competitor at all. Joel: Okay. Keith Hulen: ATSs, absolutely. Greenhouse, all those folks. [overlapping conversation] Joel: All ATS competition. Interesting. Keith Hulen: For sure. I'd say we compliment them, Joel. Joel: Okay. Nice save. Keith Hulen: Those TestGorillas and those, I'd say we absolutely compliment them. If you're thinking about automating it, you take your 250 applicants, these are the seven that we're really going to focus on. Let's take these seven and have all of them go through TestGorilla, and of those, let's take the four best scores out of there and let's meet with them. That's a great hiring process, very efficient hiring process. Joel: Okay. Maybe that's a pivot for you in the future. Chad, this sounds really fucking expensive, man. ATS testing. Keith, what is this going to cost me as a company? What's the pricing breakdown? Keith Hulen: If you're a one-person shop, one HR manager, one recruiter, it's going to run you about $900 a quarter, $300 a month. If you get up into that next tier where you've got let's say four or five recruiters on your team, then you're looking at about $1,000 a month. Joel: Pretty reasonable, but not very profitable. All right, Keith, it's time to face the firing squad. Are you ready, my friend? Keith Hulen: I'm ready. Joel: All right, get comfortable. Chad, what do you think? Chad: Well, I think ATS is fucking hard. Right out of the gate, and you've already talked about your experience. A core platform, this is a core platform, Keith. Core. What does that mean? It means that everything is in it. The cost to change, not just getting rid of the platform and bringing in a new platform, but the process methodologies, getting the data in there, make sure the data is clean. Yeah, it is a bitch. And these are things that you're starting to understand now and so is your team. I like that you do have advisors in there. You should probably lean on them very, very hard because a lot of this, to me, is going to be even harder, especially when we're talking about enterprise versus SMB. And what's the big difference between those? Fairly simple. Enterprise, a lot of fucking money, right? And you have a lot of recruiters, so therefore you have a lot of seats, so therefore you have what? A lot of money just in one account versus trying to pick off an SMB for an SMB for an SMB. They are hard to find, first and foremost. Secondarily, they are hard to get on the phone to make a deal, any of that shit, right? So at the end of the day, SMB is going to be incredibly hard. Chad: Lean on your advisors heavily to be able to do this. Listen very closely. Don't do this direct shit. Start focusing on organizations, other point solutions that you go well with, like these Testgorilla types of situations, right? And start to work with them to gain penetration into their portfolio. Period. This is one on one shit, dude. These are the things that you guys need to be doing. Your threat right now, it could be cash, right? I'm not going to say that it's not, but I think your bigger threat is automation is everywhere. So if that is your superpower, guess what kid? It's everybody's superpower. So at the end of the day, I want to see you do well. I think about any applicant tracking system that comes onto this show. I'm going to challenge them incredibly hard. I hope within the next five years you guys explode. But until then, my friend, you're getting the firing squad. Joel: Ouch, ouch. Little tough love there, Keith. Little tough love from a sexy man. Chad: We got to give them the tough love. Got to. Joel: So you're four years into this. You raised about a million dollars, which is great. I would have loved to have heard you say we're on to our A series or we're like we've got some decks and conversations. We feel pretty good about raising 8-10 million dollars in the coming six months. I would have loved to have heard that from you. I didn't. Ultimately, four years into this, it just it feels like a knife in a gunfight. The ATS is an incredibly competitive space. Why anyone launches an ATS today is the only thing worse is a job board today and that'll get the Crusaders on my ass. But that's OK. The testing is incredibly difficult, especially with the money or lack of money that you have. Every metric that I can see, the lack of people, salesforce coming in. You talked about the struggle that they've had to sell this product and how risk averse everyone is. Marketing is not getting done. You're not hiring people. There's no job postings. You don't have any logos of relevance on the site that I can go, Okay, well, they've bought into it and they believe in this product. It's either pivot, you can go with Chad's thing and like embrace the testing sites and what's going on there. Joel: My opinion is you either need to sell the parts and get the hell out and get on to your next idea or seriously pivot and get this thing on some sort of track record because you're four years into this. You mentioned 14-hour days. You have two kids. I'm sure your wife is loving these 14-hour days for four years going on five. Like to me, this is a, "should I get off the pot", come to Jesus moment for you. I think you're a great guy, a nice guy. But there's another idea for you out there. But this ain't it. For me, this also is the firing squad. Nothing personal, Keith. Nothing personal. Chad: We want to see you come back with a load of cash and say you guys were wrong. And/or I took some of that advice and parlayed it into kicking ass and taking names. Joel: For our listeners who want to know more about the company. Where do you send them? Keith Hulen: Yeah. You mentioned this earlier. So YouTube, we don't have many, many subscribers there, but there's a lot of videos. There's a lot of content there. LinkedIn, finding Keith Hulen there and then our website smartrank.ai. Joel: Good luck with all that. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the firing squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Keith podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E.com.

Who's ready for a new generation to enter the workforce? Well, like it or not, Gen Z is on their way in, and - stop me if you've heard this one before - they're different from all the preceding generations. How exactly? Well, no clue. That's why we invited Anthony Onesto, advisor, chief people officer, Gen Z & Future of Work Visionary and author of The New Employee Contract to the podcast. All kidding aside, a generation who's grown up in the shadow of 9/11, the Great Recession and a global pandemic, all while never knowing a world without internet and a smartphone are bound to introduce a wide variety of nuance to the world. And that, of course, includes recruitment and retention in new and sometimes scary ways. If you're hiring Gen Z, and hoping they stay awhile, you owe it to yourself to tune into this episode. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Chad Sowash: Oh, yeah. It's Mr. Beast's favorite podcast. What's up everybody? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joining me as always, the only to my fans, Chad Sowash is in the house. Joel Cheesman: Here we go. Chad Sowash: And please help us welcome Anthony Onesto, advisor, chief People Officer, and Gen Z and Future of Work Visionary. Anthony Onesto: Say what? Chad Sowash: He also what authored a book entitled The New Employee Contract. Anthony, welcome to the podcast. Anthony Onesto: Thank you both. I love the intro music, by the way. I was doing, air guitar as it was going on. [laughter] Chad Sowash: We do intros that the kids will enjoy. That's our goal on the show. Yeah. Anthony, a lot of our people don't know who you are, including me for the most part. Give us a little Twitter bio about you. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: It's nice to see the research was done. Wonderful. Let's just let this strange person on. I'm a Chief people officer, like you said, work for a company called Suzy. I've been in HR for quite a long time. Gray hair. I've been doing this for over 20 plus years. I advise HR tech companies. And during COVID, I was like, you got a lot of extra time in my hands. I should probably do something with that. And I said, why don't I write a book? And I picked the topic that I found interesting and could be beneficial. Gen Z in the market, in the talent market. Chad Sowash: So, real quick, you mentioned homework. I did a search on Gmail to see if we had some notes for this show. And I searched your name and amazingly, I've been spamming you for a long time. So we've known each other sort of passively, and I should know a lot about you. But unfortunately, there weren't sort of a Cliff Notes, for this show. So we're gonna wing it. We are in this for seven years so far. We are professionals. We can get through this three old, middle aged white guys talking about Gen Z. Let's do this. Anthony Onesto: Perfect. Joel Cheesman: Which leads me to the segue, what are three Gen X-ers doing, talking about Gen Z. Anthony, what actually made you focus on the Gen Z, that generation? Anthony Onesto: Yeah, it's a great question. First of all, I have to spam block you now, since you've been emailing me. So I have to make sure I do that. Chad Sowash: Oh, that's a lot of domains. You're gonna have to go through. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: Is it? Yeah. Chad Sowash: Yeah. It is. Anthony Onesto: A lot of international, icons. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: I get it. Chad Sowash: Cyprus. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: Well, when millennials came into the workforce, we were kind of surprised, right? Like, they're, we were like, oh, they don't think like us. They don't talk like us. They don't want things like us. And of course, whenever we have a new, I always say, whenever we have something new that comes into a construct, what do we do? It's like a virus, right? We attack it. They're lazy. They're this, they're that. We start name calling. I said, I really don't think that's a good strategy, especially for HR or leaders. And I knew this new generation, I have three kids. They're all Gen Z. I'm like, they're coming into this workforce. I wonder if they want something different. And guess what they do? And I said, let me write about it. Chad Sowash: Can you define them at this point? Can you sort of crystallize what they are? Anthony Onesto: IPhone forward. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: It is probably the best. I mean, other than dates, I think the iPhone was launched in 2006-ish. I believe. Chad Sowash: 2007. Anthony Onesto: Or 2007. So think about... Chad Sowash: Chad was first in line. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: Really? [laughter] Chad Sowash: Kidding. He hates Apple. Anthony Onesto: You had the... Chad Sowash: He's totally... Anthony Onesto: Oh, no. Joel Cheesman: I was a little known fact though. I did have an iPhone until I ejected, because, they made you, first and foremost, you had to buy a new phone to expand memory. I used to be able to take my battery out of the phone, which the shit would overheat all the time anyway. Anyway, I hated that Apple did that to me. So I went to Droid. Anyway, what I'm seeing here, Gen Z, just for the listeners out there, you're looking at, 1997 to, 2012. So age range of around 11 to 26. Anthony Onesto: Yeah, that's a good marker. I think easily memorable is, this generation grew up with an iPhone, in their hand, or, maybe an Android for the less sophisticated Gen, Zers. [laughter] Chad Sowash: So they can't program a VCR is what you're saying. [laughter] Chad Sowash: They cannot figure out the date and time on a VCR. Joel Cheesman: Oh. So, but yeah, most of us couldn't do that. I mean, come on. We lived during that time. Chad Sowash: X may be the only generation that can. Anthony Onesto: It's the worst thing when the power goes out. And all those devices that aren't connected to the internet are like, how do I do this again? Chad Sowash: What do I do? Help me. Anthony Onesto: It's 12 o'clock. It's blinking 12 o'clock forever now. Chad Sowash: So they've known screens their whole life. They've known the internet their whole life. And more and more social media, defines who they are and how they engage and interact and, look for fulfillment in their life. Would that be a true statement? Anthony Onesto: That's a very true statement. It's in mobile. I would even, add mobile screens. It's interesting as I watch now, this is, I've done a ton of research. I work for a company, Suzy, which is a market research platform. So we did research on Suzy. So a lot of this is built on analytics and insights, but just tangentially with my own kids, they write papers on their phones. I'm like, really? Like that is efficient. And it is. They'll talk to it. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: So mobile is the big, big piece. And I would even argue because of the proliferation of Apple, much to Chad's chagrin here, design, ease of use, that kind of stuff, is super important too. But definitely I would add mobile to that. Joel Cheesman: So, yeah, I mean, voice to text, when we were growing up, I mean, there were so many things as Gen X-ers. I mean, and let's go back real quick. We were called Slackers, right? Yeah. Gen X were, we were slackers. Anthony Onesto: I was never called a slacker. I don't know what you're talking. Chad Sowash: I was, proudly. Joel Cheesman: Sure. Chad Sowash: Proudly. Anthony Onesto: Oh heck. Joel Cheesman: Every generation is told that they're just not, they don't work as hard as the prior generation, yada, yada, yada. But a lot of the things that, that we wished we had when we were growing up, like voice to text, it's available now. It's like fucking magic. Which is amazing. Which is why I think Gen X-ers are so damn good at technology, because we had to live without it, right? I mean, we were playing pong. And then the next thing, the internet comes and just boom. I mean, technology explodes. One thing I've noticed about my kids and other their friends, is that they are not incredibly tech savvy. They know the different parts of the tech. I can definitely use my mobile phone. Anthony Onesto: But when you're starting to talk about anything that's beyond app and getting into business logic, it's really, it's hard for them. Do you find that? Is the research showing any of that? Was it just that we were in an anomaly because we wanted it so bad then it was finally there, but they've grown up with it their entire life. Do they take advantage of it or not? Anthony Onesto: I think it advantage, right? Like, if you think about how we think of electricity, like, you go into your house, you don't really think about it until it doesn't work. So for them, it is, it's so funny, I was on a podcast and I said they were born with an iPhone in their hand. And somebody called me out. I said, really? They were born? I'm like, of course I'm speaking metaphorically. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: But you always have that like, yes. Yeah. They came out and there was an iPhone in their hand and they were calling people. It's just normal to them. It's the, one of the things we found in the research is this idea of like customs. Like we all have customs. Like for Gen X-ers, we had a custom of a place before the internet. So we would go outside, we'd aggregate and build community outside. 'cause it was the only thing we knew. We wouldn't really, and we talked, listen, we all had, I remember when I was a young teenager had a girlfriend far away and was building up my phone charges. Chad Sowash: Oh, God. Anthony Onesto: And got in trouble for that too. Chad Sowash: Remember those bills that you get on a long distance phone call? Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Anthony Onesto: Fun fact, my father came into the room and, we'll just say for the storyline, just unplugged it nicely. But let's just say that's not the case. But anyway. Joel Cheesman: Not in yeah. Ripped it out of the wall. Yeah, no, I know. Anthony Onesto: Ripped it out of the wall and Yeah. And did some other stuff. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, I know. Anthony Onesto: But, I'll tell you how. So, for me, it's the norms, right? These are the, like, they just know it to be a fact. So anything other than that. And that's why I think this generation, it's interesting because there's a lot of things being thrown around. You see CEOs from major organizations saying, negative things. This is the virus, right? We're attacking the virus. But this is arguably the most diverse, not arguably the data says. So it's most diverse. A lot of Gen Zers are two or more races. In fact, it's the most diverse generation. They are have such access. You remember AOL, right? . We would dial up and hear that crackle, and then if someone got a phone call, it would kick us out. They have unprecedented access to information. Think about now with ChatGPT. Wi-Fi. Anthony Onesto: How wonderful is Wi-Fi? We take event. Like, when, by the way, Wi-Fi went down the other day, and like, it was like the, I forgot the book with the conch, right? Like, everyone was coming to me. Like, I had the Wi-Fi conch, and I had all this power. And I'm like, I don't know. Like it, Wi-Fi went out. Like, the kids world. Chad Sowash: Don't worry our buddy Elon and Starlink are gonna fix all that. Like, everything else in the world. Don't worry, don't worry. Anthony Onesto: Oh, yes, I have. Well, I listen, puts his mind to things and things happen. So. Chad Sowash: Yeah, I think to that point, employers, obviously, recruiters watch our show, and it's sort of like, how do you figure out this new animal, that's coming into the jungle? How do we recruit it, retain it. Chad and I talk on the show regularly. They're, more politically motivated, I think, than most. They're environmentally conscious, more than any other generation that I can think of. They think about college differently. We all grew up, like, you gotta go to college. Like, that's how you're successful. They think of that very differently. They have gigs that they can do and not take the traditional career track. So I think a lot of employers, and please speak to this, are trying to figure this out. And will they, or what advice would you give them to understand this generation better? Anthony Onesto: Yeah, it'd be silly for me not to say, go buy the book. So that'll be one plug there. You'll, you'll find some insights there. But, at a very summary or ChatGPT level here, it really is truly, and I don't, this is not a joke at all, but it's like understanding them, right? Like, first try to, like, oftentimes we'll make decisions or assumptions. And again, we're generalizing to a certain degree here, right? We're saying, all Gen Z does this, and, there are outliers and there's gonna be different personas within there. But for the most part, when you're thinking of recruiting, it's fundamentally everything. That's why the book is find, keep, and elevate. So it's recruiting, it's how do we engage and how do we train this generation? So it doesn't finish with recruiting, but it does start there. And it starts even before then. So let's remember mobile first, Wi-Fi, we'll put that in there. And access to global information. So when your company says, Hey, we're diverse, we're a diverse company. Yes, we are. Really? 'cause when I look in LinkedIn, all of your board of directors are white males. All of your executives are white males. All of your leaders are white. Joel Cheesman: Hello? Goldman Sachs. Yes. Chad Sowash: Nike. Anthony Onesto: Pick blank company, right? Joel Cheesman: Yes. Chad Sowash: Exactly. Anthony Onesto: Like, it's an, so they're gonna be like, that's bullshit. You know? And I'm not gonna be interested in your, so it starts even before then. And it's hard work. Nothing in the book is super easy, other than, Hey, get rid of all your ATS systems. 'cause they're all terrible. And the experience is awful. And I can track my pizza on Domino's, but I can't tell where my resume is at your company. Oh. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: That's some of the more tactical stuff like digital first. Like, if you're not on mobile, their mobile generation, if you're ATS is not on mobile or mobile friendly, or you have to fill in a form, connect your LinkedIn, add your firstborn, then add, your mom has to do a video confirming who you are. Like all these different steps we have. They're gone. Like, so even before all that process, they're looking into your company and saying, what's your work life balance? They're looking at LinkedIn and potentially looking at how many people are exiting your company so they have access to all this information. Joel Cheesman: So what about TikTok? What, what about TikTok? I mean, we we're starting to see a lot of, people come out on TikTok, talk about their jobs. I mean, it seems like Gen Z is much more transparent and they just don't give a fuck. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just like, Hey, look, this is my life. I'm working for you. I'm gonna say how it's so, and many companies have huge issues with this. And then we also hear people say, well, now that's gonna stick with you for the rest of your life. But if that's the next generation, this is what we should be getting used to. Or should we not? Or should that be tamped down? Anthony Onesto: I think there's always a middle ground with these things. So I was, you hit it. Right? So TikTok, obviously the growth of TikTok, it is the platform that this generation uses for content, right? Whether they wanna absorb. You see it in, Netflix numbers. You see it in traditional TV. TikTok is where this generation is. And whatever your position on that, it's scary. Especially if TikTok is owned by a Chinese company. But we won't get into that. They are in TikTok. And the idea of the example of cutting, eight seconds or more, or 10 seconds or 15, like this idea of really quick type of, content is really important. It's their attention spans. It's they're digital. It's that component of it. But they're non-negotiable. That is the key factor here and across, whether it's TikTok or what you're talking about, where they are recording, they're not negotiating or revising their thought process. Anthony Onesto: If you're not diverse or you're doing something wrong, they're not afraid to say it because they are not negotiable on those things. Now, I will say that when you come into the workforce, they're also coming into a time when there has been unprecedented unemployment. So it has been a talent market. And frankly, if you subscribe to Peter Zion who wrote a book, the End of the World is just a beginning about global demographics. You'll understand that it will probably always be a talent market, even with the blips of rifts that we're seeing the ne last two years. You're coming into a leveraged market on their side. When we came in, us X-ers, when we came into the market, we were told, do what you're told. You get what you get and you don't get upset. Because there were more people than jobs. And so I think there's so many different macro elements, it's their custom. So that's why you're seeing a lot of these things. So to answer your question more succinctly, I think they will adjust. They have to, you have to accommodate to the cultural norms of organizations. You just do. But they're gonna fight against that. And that's where the friction is happening. Chad Sowash: And to dot tell on that, one of the things that really surprises me is it looks as if anonymity is out the window, with Gen Z, Glassdoor was a thing and you were anonymous and you could sound off and no one could find you unless there was a court order, et cetera. Now people just drop bombs on companies on TikTok with no anonymity. That just seems like that's the future. That just, that's not a supply and demand thing. That's something that's gonna be business as usual with this generation. And the ones coming, they just don't care about privacy. Like we did. Anthony Onesto: I think experience, was it, Yoda experience is the greatest teacher? I think you're probably gonna see some of that happen and some of it drawback. 'cause there are consequences to those things. You talked about it. So there was recently someone who was fired, who recorded the entire fire and posted it on TikTok, right? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Anthony Onesto: The whole session. On her side, unfortunately, people may be second guessing whether they want to hire her in the future. Right? That's a thing. That's a real thing that will exist. And she's gonna have to taper or governor her, transparency around that stuff. And maybe she'd be like, maybe I wouldn't put my name out next time. Who knows? On the flip side, companies gotta get better. Like the more they're getting exposed, the better the experience is gonna be. Companies that get called out, we're all watching and going, oh yeah, we really need to have this locked up when we do this stuff and make sure that we're bringing the humanity to it. Make sure we're doing this in the right way. Where a rift like that was just like, Hey, go talk to the HR person. We're gonna fire you. And that's it. Chad Sowash: Does this generation though, think the fame is worth the risk? Because I see many polls that kids want to be TikTok influencers, YouTube influencers. So my question is, she got famous from that post. Yes, she took risk. And yes, she may see some retribution, but does this generation say, I got famous from it, and that's worth it? Anthony Onesto: I think there's a segment. I think those polls, I've read those polls in the research we've done. This generates it's not, it's actually one of the most misconceived notions that they just want to be TikTokers or, you know. They want to be influencers. Listen, they've seen, just like when we were, growing up or watching, we'd see Michael J. Fox in a movie go from the mail room to the CEO office in an hour, right? So we were like, oh, we want to go work for a company and get that like, so they're seeing influencers and TikTokers become famous. So of course, naturally they're like, maybe that's an opportunity for me. And it's like, there is real money. You mentioned Mr. Beast at the beginning, like, amazing. Chad Sowash: You saw what I did there. Anthony Onesto: I don't get it. My son gets it. I don't get it. Fine. I think he's amazing. I think Taylor Swift is amazing. All these, so to answer your question, I think it's not something they all want to become. They all see the path in companies. They see, right? And by the way, what we found in the research is that they are loyal. Like even though a lot of folks say millennials weren't loyal, 'cause they job jumped this generation because they've seen such change in racial equity and climate change and all this disruption here, and they've seen in 2008 their parents, some of them getting laid off or fired or whatever it is, they want stability. That's actually one of the things in my research that's a little counter to what some of the articles say that say they want to be, no, they actually want security. They just want you, they're non-negotiable on all those other things. Like, Hey, are you diverse? Are you doing good for the world? Et cetera, et cetera. Chad Sowash: Now, Joel asked about, he was on the transparency side of the people, right? They're out there, there's no anonymity. It seems also like a lot of the Gen Z transparency, just not themselves, but also around pay, around culture, around lifestyle, around the company. Do you believe this is going to force companies to be much more transparent so that they can attract that new talent into their organizations? Anthony Onesto: Oh absolutely. If you look at the value of the S&P 500 over the last couple of decades it has gone from what we call assets or tangible assets to intangible assets. So now most companies are valued by their intangible assets. Upwards of 90 I would argue 95%. What that means is people in IP and software but all that IP and software until AI can write software and do all those things it's all created by people. So I think strategically companies are... They have no choice. If your value of your company is your people you're going to have to focus and this is the next generation coming in so they're going to have to figure out how to manage this. It might not be I think the... I forget the supermarket chain that went fully transparent. I think they even published a book of everyone's salary all the way to... I think it was Wegmans years ago. I'm not suggesting that that is the right answer but some level of transparency and there is going back to Joel's comment a couple of seconds before or a couple of minutes before is this they have no shame. So they'll even call you out internally within an organization if you're not doing something which for me was like wow you're okay out on oh yeah tick-tock I get it. You're not employed but you're employed by this organization and you're calling them out. So it's going to be a really interesting time on how to manage how far or how transparent can you be versus what the expectations are. Chad Sowash: That's a big push on the power dynamic because we grew up where obviously the boomers were raised by the greatest generation and the power dynamic was we're the greatest generation. The boomers with the Xers we were raised by them. So again it was do as I say not as I do. And Gen Zs are just like well fuck if you can do it I can do it. And we're on the same level. I don't care if I'm entry level and you're the CEO we're still human beings. And to me that is fascinating. That is incredibly fascinating. Coming into an organization and having that kind of chutzpah right out of the gate. I think it's good. I think it can be tailored but from what it sounds to me and you talked about this earlier there are a lot of CEOs that are out there and most of them are still boomers right and they're just not used to this kind of lashing out but it sounds like they're going to be moving out of the workforce no matter what. But it sounds like CEOs really need to get used to that. How... As a senior leader who one day wants to be a CEO how do you get prepared for something like that other than just having those kids? Anthony Onesto: Yeah I mean. That's helpful because you get real time qualitative feedback from those kids. Again I think it's really truly understanding whether it's my book or any book or any article that's written about what this is all about. I think you have a great point in terms of X versus Z they are coming in they have no fear. They have the chutzpah as you call it but everything that they're... I was on a session of a webinar and I was talking about it and someone commented are they asking for too much? And I went through the list of like Hey they want racial diversity. They want... How is your company impacting the climate? They want compensation transparency. They want... I'm like name which one of these things that we wouldn't want. We just never asked for it I want the earth to be livable. I want racial equity in companies and everyone treated fairly. There's nothing that they're asking for that none of us would agree with. It's just how they're approaching it as this is non-negotiable. So I think as a CEO you really need to truly understand one instead of throwing that antibody at the virus understand. Why? Why is this generation like this? Why do they feel like they have the chutzpah just coming in and kind of throwing a demand on slack in front of the whole entire company? Anthony Onesto: What is it about it wrong or right? And that'll be a decision. What does that mean wrong or right? Is that wrong? I mean it feels wrong. I wouldn't do it. Joel Cheesman: I blame participation trophies but that's just me. Chad Sowash: Yeah. But if you think about it though that's the first thing in negotiations is that you ask for more than what you think you're going to get. And if we've done our jobs as Gen X parents to the Gen Z kids we've taught them that this is how the world works. If you ask for what you want you're not going to get it. You've got to be able to start negotiation wise. You've got to start up high and come down low. Everybody was giving the UAW a hard time for asking for four day work weeks and this that and the other things. Like no those are basic negotiation tactics. I think we're just surprised that these kids these young adults are negotiating better than we did when we were their age. Anthony Onesto: Surprised maybe jealous 'cause we... Again we came in. But I do think it's the power dynamic. I think you're seeing so the new employee contract the title of the book is that dynamic that macro. So that's the macro part of the book. What's happened in the economy, why are we seeing these things? What is... Is the dynamic shifting from capital to labor? And we are seeing a lot of that. We've seen that over the last couple of years and I think listen we've hit a little blip in the tech layoffs. Professor Galloway talks about the Patagonia recession which I love that reference of defence. Joel Cheesman: Patagonia vests. Yeah. Anthony Onesto: Yeah. It's that kind of stuff. I think we see a little blip. And then on the flip side unions are at the lowest level they've ever been at but we've seen some pretty incredible unionization efforts in 2023. The artist or the movie one is a little bit different fighting against AI but you're seeing this movement of activity and so yeah I think there is definitely a capital to labor dynamic that's changing. And I do believe honestly after reading Peter's book on demographics that that... I read an article in the FT yesterday about how Japan is deploying drones and robots into their fields 'cause they have a labor shortage in Japan because too many folks are getting too older. And I was like okay that's interesting. Yes there's a labor shift but what Peter argues in his book and I highly suggest it. It's a long one and it's really deep on economic history in the globe but he also talks about the consumption so even if we have robots and drones making stuff who's buying it? If there's no one everyone's getting older or dying out you have a problem here. You have a real shift in economic issues around the globe. So anyway I went really tangent there but the idea is there is a shift happening and it's a global shift. It's a macro shift. Joel Cheesman: By the way whenever I get jealous about younger generations I just think back to the magic of the eight-track tapes and know that I had it better than everyone else. Anthony I want to pivot back to your comment in regards to them wanting to be stable sort of safe which makes total sense in a generation of 9/11 and pandemics and 08 and et cetera, et cetera. With that information I would say okay the gig economy is in trouble. That's not stability is it? I would say schools are going to benefit being college 'cause that feels like a safe thing to do. And I would say that marriage should be on the upswing because having a stable family structure nuclear family seems like a safe thing to do. But all of those things are not happening. The gig economy is exploding. People aren't going to college the way that they used to and people aren't marrying the way that they used to. So can you help explain that to me how those two things can be true but also in contrast to each other? Anthony Onesto: Yeah I think part of it is understanding that maybe some of those stabilization norms are ours and not theirs. So I think there's some... One is like job and gig so I think that if there is the shift in the gig economy and I really haven't seen too much of that data. In my experience at least we have full-time employees. They're coming in. I mean there's no other path right now for kids. Years ago we had wood shop and by the way it was terrible. I almost killed my wood shop feature. [laughter] Auto shop. I cracked whatever they... Chad Sowash: Electricity. Joel Cheesman: Fargo before Fargo. Anthony Onesto: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: The wood chipper. Anthony Onesto: It was terrible. But there was a path to that kind of work and I think that went away 'cause it's... Everyone is like you got to go to college. But some of the highest paying jobs I know of is plumber electrician. I don't see the college numbers. I think college has become so expensive but I don't see a lot of kids not going. I think that's still an element. A lot of kids are going to college. They see that as the next step. I think the gig economy is because we're starting to think of jobs as skills not necessarily a job. So what I mean by that is there's a specific task. So if I am a digital marketer and I need to understand SEO there's really no university that's going to teach me how to do that. I might be able to take a course online but it's a skillset that I am going to learn. And I want to hire somebody. I don't care if you went to an Ivy League or a community college. If you know how to do SEO or you know how to media buy on LinkedIn your degree is useless to me. So I think when you think of the gig economy specifically I think it's being able to have these skill sets roll up into a full-time job. So I think it's part of the fundamental change that I talk about in the book is rethinking how we're even thinking about jobs and how jobs are performed. And we're starting to see that. We pulled education off of I think 95% of our job titles where it wasn't relevant. Anthony Onesto: We do market research. It does require some level of education some level of PhD on the data science side but for the most part we're not requiring any of that. We just want you to know and display that you can actually do the job. So I think that's an element of that. On the marriage piece I think they're finding... What I found is the shift there at least in the research and what I'm seeing even outside of the book in the work that I did is that they're not finding that as a source of stability. They're leaving churches and religion and all that other stuff. They're using the job in that environment as a pivotal point of stability and friendship like now add COVID in there and obviously no one could do anything else but I don't think they're looking at families as that end game of stability which again if you hearken back to my comments about Peter Zion that we're in trouble the US we should be okay. He predicts the US will have minor demographic challenges but a lot of folks are going to be coming into the US 'cause it's really the only beacon of economic prosperity he predicts. But so it's a bit nuanced. So I think they can exist 'cause I don't think it's a zero in one or it's linear. I think it's... These things can exist to a certain degree and I think there might be other forces that are impacting those numbers. Chad Sowash: So in a world of generative AI you have created a ChatGPT I mean literally a chatbot to be able to scale your knowledge. Tell me about the impetus of that. You were probably pretty excited and what did you use data wise to be able to train the bot so it didn't just start hallucinating and giving out crazy ass recommendations to people who're using the bot. So tell us what the bot is and then tell us how you trained it et cetera. Anthony Onesto: Yeah and just so you know you mentioned generative AI. So the AI gods will save us today. We have to say it at least once. Chad Sowash: Thank God. Anthony Onesto: So that they'll not come down on us or when the... As the group of Roman Aideman... Joel Cheesman: Skynet. Anthony Onesto: Skynet, yeah I don't know how I forgot that. So to your point... Joel Cheesman: Two out of three Gen Xers can name Skynet. We just proved that point. Anthony Onesto: Exactly, exactly with very little context. I have book debt. I wrote this when I launched it. I love books of someone will say Chad and Joel wrote this really cool book and I'll be like all right I'm going to buy it and then it sits there. It's just honestly and it's not a knock on you two. I don't even know if you have a book but... Joel Cheesman: Coloring book. Yeah. Anthony Onesto: It's just... It sits there until I'm ready to read it but I'll buy 10 books and read one. So I'm like people might be buying my book. There's one person in the Midwest that basically threw it out. She wrote a review on Amazon and said it was junk gamut. I'm like okay I'll own that. I can't make everyone happy. Chad Sowash: Transparency. Okay. Anthony Onesto: I like pulling that out by the way I screenshotted it. Because listen whatever everyone has their opinion. But folks may buy it and not really use it 'cause they're like me and they're just like oh that's an interesting book and never get to it and that's audio books too. 'Cause I ride bike and so I like audio books too. The ChatGPT was an opportunity to take the entire book infuse it into the chatbot take the research we did on Suzy all the data we put in there and said okay let me throw this in there and see what happens so when they first launched it before it went public it was sitting in the backend where I would just test it. I shared it with a couple of friends in the HR space 'cause as your point. We see I think there was one that was just spun up in the UK. It was a customer service bot that the person convinced the bot to convince them not to use the company that it was a terrible company to use. So you've got to be careful with these things. And I don't even know now that it's public there might be... I think it's controlled guidance but I thought it as an opportunity to make an extension. Okay all right if you want to buy the book yes no one's getting rich off of that but I want my knowledge to be out there. Here's another way it's another avenue. It's kind of like when the app store came on and everyone started creating apps and most of us never passed that first screen. Anthony Onesto: Well for Chad your Google phone or whatever it is you're using there. But for the iPhone we very rarely go to the second or third screens. It's the same thing right? We're going to see a proliferation of these things. Most of them are going to be useless. Mine might be useless. Hopefully someone will find value sit in a meeting with the Gen Z-er and chat while they're meeting and saying they're saying this and how do I respond? And maybe it becomes helpful to them. But it was an extension of the book in a very... I would say a unique way so that was really the spirit of it and I don't even know what'll happen with it. There's not a lot of data or transparency around this whole GPT store. I don't even anyone is using it. But that was the purpose. Let me take the book and see if I can create a different experience. Chad Sowash: Sounds like a genius way to get out of parenting. Just have your kids ask my generative AI bot what you should do and not do. And I can just watch Netflix and eat Chipotle. Chad Sowash: That might be a real world by the way. Anthony Onesto: I want to go back. You mentioned Professor Galloway 'cause he also has a professor Galloway AI that you can ask him questions but he talks a lot about young men being sort of lonely opting out of the general norms of society. I talked about college and you said that people are going to college women more so than men today. I want you to just talk about Gen Z men where their head is what they expect out of life how are they different than other generations 'cause I think that's something that's worth noting. Anthony Onesto: Yeah it's a great question. I mean I'll be perfectly honest we didn't really do too much gender split in the research. I mean there's some that came about in the research but we didn't dive heavily. We wanted more of a I would say a holistic view of the generation but specifically what we saw I think one of the elements we haven't talked about. So we talked about mobile and other things but really the gaming element with this generation is huge. And that's both male and female. Traditionally male traditionally male on the gaming side in terms of the company and the engineers. But there is a large amount of female gamers that are starting to enter the space. I think gaming has a real interesting when you think of the male and again most of it is male. They're interacting online so this is again a custom norm. We didn't have this stuff before AOL chat rooms and all that sort of stuff. So we'd have to go outside knock on a door or I think there's a great meme it said... It had a bunch of bikes in front of a house and that's how you knew where everyone was. So those were just norms we were used to where we're here the gaming and the interaction and I have this with my own son he's 17. Big gamer has always been a big gamer and we're like go outside. And I think those things are important don't get me wrong. Anthony Onesto: I think it's important for exercise get out. It's been proven. There's science behind it. But I'm not judging him for having his interactions on a gaming system. He's comfortable. I hear him in his room has his headphone which I should probably borrow for our next podcast probably gonna be helpful. And he's talking to his friends and he's laughing. But it's unusual for us because we like this. We like the in-person interaction so while I agree with Professor Galloway it's clear the numbers are there. Every active shooter that's out there it's nine times out of 10 if not 100% male. It's a young male. There is a problem there's a real issue here. A lot of folks always point to gaming and other things. I don't know I'm not that sophisticated to name that but I think from a Gen Z this is the norm. They like the gaming they like the online elements they like that kind of thing. And then I think if they do go to college or other things I think we have to figure out what is if it was church or going outside or community events I love sports. I love the idea of sports. I would infuse almost what Israel does with Professor Galloway talks about the Peace Corps and things like that. I think those are great ideas like forcing people into these things into a community where they connect as a team 'cause I think that's the element that is going to be missed. Anthony Onesto: And when you go to college that's obviously forced on you. If you don't go to college it's not. But I think it's an important element of success is that ability to have that. So there's got to be the way to infuse that. And I think young sports any sport is a great way to do that. But in the data that we're seeing they're very comfortable in that space. And it's something that I don't have a solution for but it was definitely something we saw in the data especially around the gaming elements. Chad Sowash: Excellent. Well that's Anthony Onesto everyone. So Anthony if somebody wants to buy the book write you a bad review or I don't know just connect with you where would you send them. Anthony Onesto: For the bad review you can go to the Barnes & Noble on Route nine. No. Joel Cheesman: Your local library. Anthony Onesto: Your local library and throw it in the binder in the front of it. Don't do that it's a fee and you'll get in trouble. Amazon has the book. We don't have an audio book yet. We'll get there at some point. But Amazon Kindle you can get it there. You go to my website anthonyonesto.com. You can learn more about me, you find the book all that sort of stuff. Joel Cheesman: Thank God we've stopped talking about the fucking millennials. That's another one in the can Chad we out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to what's it called a podcast the Chad the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting they talk about technology but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar blue nacho Pepper Jack Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It is so weird. We out.

Workday acquires HiredScore, legal challenges in AI hiring, Deel buys Zavvy, Indeed's pricing woes. Industry shifts and privacy debates YES, this is the kitchen sink of episodes. The stars have somehow aligned and we got news drop from all your favs this week: ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, Indeed, Deel ... and of course, OnlyFans. We even mention the likes of CareerBuilder, Monster and HotJobs. Hell, we even through background check talk along with AI lawsuits on hiring practices with some of the most well-known companies in our space. Seriously, settle in for this one, grab a bourbon and enjoy. We're about to cause chaos and rock like Amadeus. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. [music]: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh yeah, two guys who are taking time out from their day buying NVIDIA and Bitcoin to give you another show. You're welcome. What's up kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel insurrectionists band Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad surge pricing Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, Workday scores, Deel deals and OnlyFans saves lives. Let's do this. Chad, we're infiltrating the minds of young children apparently. Who sent you the video of the kids in the backseat giving our intro? I mean, I'm worried for the future enough as it is. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The fact that parents are letting their kids listen to us is really scary. Chad: So I'm not going to let that out. I don't want them having, child custody taken away from them or something like that for having them listen to Chad and Cheese, but yes, I got a video from one of our listeners and his two kids. I'd say they're probably around 10 or so 10, 12 Maybe, in the backseat of the minivan doing the Chad and Cheese Intro. So yeah, that was pretty legit. Yeah, they were good. Joel: Lock your doors... Yeah, they knew it. And we know Adam Gordon's kid has been listening to the show. By all intents and purposes, seems like a pleasant young man. So maybe it's not as bad listening to us as it would sound. Chad: Nah, it's the real world coming at you. Joel: So with this cold front in the Midwest, how much do you miss Portugal? Chad: Yeah, I don't even need a cold front to miss Portugal. Joel: That's true. Chad: But I get a cold front and then I really miss Portugal. So yeah. Joel: That's true. Chad: It's... I'm jonesing, I'm jonesing. Joel: So we were talking before the show. This is like the the aphrodisiac of a show that I'm not sure our listeners are ready for. Chad: It's packed. Joel: We have thrown almost everything into this show. Chad: Packed. Joel: Zip is in the show, LinkedIn is in the show, Workday, Background check stuff, Indeed of course is in the show. Chad: Deel, Acquisition. Joel: And obviously, OnlyFans has to be in the show. So if you're listening and you love the show, take a seat, get comfortable because this thing is a loaded baked potato to say the least. Chad: Here we go big boy, here we go. SFX: Shout Out. Joel: All right, let's get to it. The Four Horsemen keep riding on Chad, ZipRecruiter announced their earnings recently. So if you're trading the stock, and we know that all you JobBoard lovers out there, owning ZipRecruiter hand over fist, that ZIP at the NYSE. All right, so they faced challenges in 2023 due to what ZipRecruiter described as "one of the slowest hiring markets in recent memory." and other top line headwinds impacting its fourth quarter and full year earnings, the company reported a 35.4% decrease in fourth quarter revenue to $135.92 million. The number of quarterly paid employers declined by 35% year-over-year to a little over 70,000 primarily due to weakness among small and mid-sized businesses, which are the majority of ZipRecruiter's customers. Revenue per paid employer also decreased by 1% to $1922. First quarter 2024 revenue guidance is 120 million representing, yep, you guessed it, a 35% decline year-over-year. Chad: Ouch. Joel: The stock was down 10% this week. Shout out to ZipRecruiter. Chad: Amazing. I mean any types of job sites, they're gonna have to go down funnel, they need more data. This is going to be about data this is going to be about targeting, this is going to be about being able to target qualified candidates as opposed to just clicks, just bullshit clicks, which is exactly what Zip and the rest are giving. Yes, Zip has more of a matching algorithm, but still, it's not far enough down the funnel. Joel: What was their AI's guy name? The guy? What was his name? Do you remember? Chad: Was it Phil? Joel: Phil, yes, it was Phil. Phil's not working out. Phil needs to get replaced by somebody else. Cheers. Chad: Yeah, I think I think Phil's gonna get a pink slip. Anyway, I've got a shout out but this is for the dumbass of the week who goes to the fast food chain Wendy's CEO Kirk Tanner for this Indeed-like dumbass move. Yes, Indeed-like dumbass move. Here it is kids, watch it. SFX: Wendy's will soon test a plan to fluctuate its menu prices based on the time of day, the location and demand. It would be similar to the surge pricing used by ride sharing companies like Uber, raising fares during bad weather or rush hour. SFX: Wendy's Baconator. SFX: In this case, that Baconator sandwich could cost $1 more during your lunch hour. SFX: Dynamic pricing or pricing algorithms allow companies to change prices throughout the day or perhaps even throughout an hour. SFX: Wendy's CEO says digital menu boards could use artificial intelligence to raise and lower prices in real time, allowing the company to be competitive and flexible with pricing. Customers are already voicing concerns. One claiming surge pricing is just price gouging by any other name. Chad: Yeah, so hey, Kirk, buddy. The big question here is will Wendy's employees receive dynamic wage increases during the surge times? I mean, the burgers themselves, they're not going to assemble themselves. And then there was this holy fuck moment they were talking about the Baconator. Gizmodo reports that the standard price of a Wendy's Baconator in New York City costs, get ready, $12.24. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad: For a sandwich from a fast food restaurant. And that's standard pricing. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Fuck. Joel: This is the dark side of AI. When I know traffic flows, and personally, I can't wait till my wings cost $84 during the game in surge pricing. Chad: Crazy. Joel: I think it's inevitable. I think this is coming, Wendy's just did a shitty job of like, slowly boiling the frog. They just threw the frog right into the boiling pit of death and the whole world freaked out. And they've walked this back. But don't think for a second that fast food, restaurants, etcetera, are looking at ways to like increase prices when Oh, it's lunchtime. Are people going to change when they eat? Probably not. So this is kind of a built-in price increase, that doesn't look like a price increase. I guess. Chad: They will stop going. I mean, they'll stop going to fast food. I mean, people go to fast food because it's cheaper. Joel: Your lunch time is like 03:00 o'clock in the afternoon. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Because you're on your fasting thing. So everyone will be at 03:00 PM You eat at 10:00 P.M, Will be on European mealtimes. And do they increase or do they decrease? I guess would be a question. They didn't say much about, Oh, during the hours of 03:00 to 04:00. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Those nuggets are 25 cents, like watch them sell some nuggets between 03:00 and 04:00 when it's really, really low pricing. Chad: But again these poor saps, Who are the ones who have to assemble the burgers in the first place. And they have to do it faster because of surge timing, because there's so many... There's so much demand that's happening. Yeah, those dudes aren't getting paid more. They're not getting more. Joel: Yeah. Chad: This is just a way to soak the consumer. I mean, they're already getting amazing profit as it is so yeah, hopefully we'll start to see. And they did see on social media that people were like rising up and like, Fuck you, I'll go across the street. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So yeah, we'll see how it rolls out. But I don't see this. This is like gas prices. You pass and then five minutes later, you go back past it. And it's like 20 cents more. It's like what the fuck just happened? Joel: You may be onto something from a marketing perspective. If they would have come at this at like, look, our workers aren't getting paid anymore, when it's lunchtime or dinner time, they're still paid the same amount. So we are going to surge pricing, and pass that on to our workers. Chad: That might be something. Joel: Who are harder during these hours. And then they could kind of split the hair. Like we're gonna keep a little bit too and they're gonna get a little bit more. Like this could have been a home-run for Wendy's from a recruiting retention like PR standpoint, but they fucked it up. Chad: Go figure. Joel: They screwed it up. Because you and I would be celebrating if Wendy said, the burger is $1 more during lunchtime, but we're gonna give 80 cents of that to our workers and then 20% to technology or innovation or whatever, like we would have been applauding it. Instead, they're getting killed for it. Lessons in PR with Chad and Cheese kids. That's what we're doing here. Chad: All they had to do was watch Indeed. Indeed comes out with new products and then they increase prices and then they said, oh, sorry that pilot didn't work out. That was not a fucking pilot. Joel: I hope the folks at Chipotle are listening to this show on how to do it right, kids. SFX: Oh my God, I love Chipotle. SFX: Don't do it Chipotle. SFX: You took away my life. Joel: All right, since we're in the mood for playing some ads, I'm going to talk about LinkedIn's new ad campaign. They've launched their first ever brand campaign for LinkedIn premium, aiming to showcase the benefits of its subscription product. The campaign running until the end of March features three videos highlighting relatable career experiences and emphasizing LinkedIn premium as a tool to advance careers with 85% of US professionals considering a career change this year. I say bravo to getting more cash out of those damn job seekers. So if you're listening on the podcast, which a lot of you are, it's clones. Same woman, same outfit. She's in the office lobby waiting to be called for an interview. She's like, how do you stand out she opens her phone looks at LinkedIn. LinkedIn gives her magically these three guidelines to separate herself from everybody else. They pan back to the lobby. Now everyone's different, she stands out, she gets called back for the interview. You're shaking your head like you don't like this strategy Chad, you don't like the ad. Chad: Oh it's black mirror creepy as fuck. I mean you look it and you're like, I don't see myself in that bad haircut or that bad outfit. Trying to soak... I understand it's an entirely different revenue stream, but trying to soak jobseekers especially when they're looking to find another job for cash is always been just filthy, just creepy, just nasty to me. So and we actually talked about there are others who have done that before. The Marc Cenedella, the ladders of the world who just focused on hey, look, if you want access to these special jobs pay us for this, which was... Joel: No one else get's this. Chad: It was all bullshit in the first place. But again, it's just like, why are you trying to zap cash out of individuals who are looking for a job versus the companies that actually have the money and they want the talent? It's like we have this backwards in this country. It's fucked up. Joel: Yeah, it's a long tradition of taking advantage. Let's be honest, of desperate people. Chad: Fucking people over, Yes. Joel: Yeah, like I need a job and this ad tells me if I spend, what'd you say, 40 bucks a month or whatever it is now for the... Chad: Fuck. Joel: For the job seeker one like, I'll magically get a job and that's just not the case. Infact, I would say that this probably does very little to help you stand out. And get the job of your dreams. Chad: But what will help you stand out is free stuff with Chad and Cheese. You have to pay $40 a month for this shit? No way. This is great stuff. Joel: No, not on this show. Chad: New T-shirts that we're getting ready to push out design-wise that we've got a new sponsor Aaron app. I love the logo on the back of the shirt by the way, it's gonna look awesome. Joel: It's so sexy. SFX 4: Hi pappy. Chad: Beer from Aspen tech labs on your door, your step right there, FedEx, UPS however it gets there but it's going to be brought to you. Whiskey... Joel: We're not coming to your house, just so you know. It's not us. Chad: And that's from Aspen tech labs. Whiskey from Textkernel, bottle from Joel, bottle from myself. So some whiskey coming to you. And if it's your birthday, rum from Plum. SFX 5: Could you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can, I can feel it all the way down. Chad: One Lucky listener. Joel: Gotta love it. And February had an extra day. We're recording on the 29th, it's leap year, so you had a little extra chance this month to get on there. But yeah, Celebrating another trip around the sun of our listeners. Is Kristen Urban, one of our fantasy favorites? I almost got there. Vershali Umrical, Colin Parker, Adam Salsa King Chambers. Do we know where in the world he is? Now, is he still in Mexico? Is he in Vietnam? Chad: I think he's still in Mexico. It doesn't matter. Wherever Adam is. He's having a good time. Joel: That dude's a trip. All right. Christopher Chamento. John Turner, Becky Green, Molly Northern Warner. My niece, by the way. Boss Von De Etered. Bob Etheridge and our favorite PR guy. SFX: Hi Pappy. Joel: Evan White celebrates a birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: All right. Happy birthday everybody. Chad: Our friend Edward White, who we're actually going to see March 11th through the 14th at Transform. That's right, at the win in Vegas. Over 3000 attendees, a 100 plus investors, 100s of startups, 100s of speakers. So much, God, I'm tired just thinking about it right now. And we're giving away five free tickets. We're gonna shut this down sometime soon, kids. So get on Chadcheese.com/free and you can register for everything that we talked about before for beer, t-shirts, everything, and even possibly winning one of five free tickets to Transform. SFX: All right. All right. All right. Joel: Good Lord. I don't know if we're turning into Groupon or your local lottery dealer, but... Chad: A little bit of both. Joel: But man, we are out of control. By the way, our travel is sponsored by our friends at Shaker, Recruitment Marketing. And by the way, Chad, I mentioned it was the end of February. That means we're at the beginning of March, which means we'll be recording our Chad and Cheese podcast does data with Linkup, CEO. Chad: Toby. Joel: Toby Dayton. The number's a little bit weird, a little bit of estimates coming out. We'll know the numbers here in about a week or so. And you and I will be on with Toby talking about the real nitty gritty about where the markets and the economy is going. You can only view that on YouTube. So subscribe youtube.com/@ChadCheese and make sure you don't miss an episode. Chad: Excellent. Chad: Topics... Chad: And a shitload of topics. Geez. Joel: Yep, yep, yep. So much for Workday acquiring Beamery, at least not yet. Workday is acquiring HiredScore, an AI powered talent solutions provider to enhance talent management. The deal aims to offer a comprehensive talent acquisition and internal mobility solution leveraging responsible AI and focusing on human centric decision making. The acquisition is expected to be finalized by April 30th, subject to regulatory approval. Of course, Chad, your thoughts. Chad: So, congrats to Athena Karp and the HiredScore team who stayed disciplined and focused on the problem they were solving this entire time. HiredScore never played the we can do it all Vaporware Tam expansion game, which I've always respected. I've always respected that. What this all comes down to though is one thing, timing. We've seen some big names rush generative AI products into the market to meet OpenAI and ChatGPT, Amazon, Google, Facebook, and Twitter are all either launching GenAI into the market or they're taking steps to do so. So how does a HiredScore cut through all of those big names and the noise? The easy answer is they can't compete long term. They can't with those big names and those deep pockets. So this is a perfect time to sell. This is the perfect time to sell. The question is why HiredScore? When we take a look at like the Beamery and the Eightfolds and some of those other companies that are out there, why HiredScore and why now? What do you think? Joel: Because AI bleeds into everything. And if you are a public company like Workday is, and you're not talking about AI, introducing AI, using AI, profiting from AI, You're gonna be left out by the market. I mean, shareholders and people who buy the stock. I guarantee board meetings at Workday were like, where's our AI shit? Where's our AI? We need AI. And somebody said, well, we're working on that internally. And finally someone said, shit, we're not, it's not working. We need to at least buy something with AI in it and we can announce on our earning score, which wasn't awesome, by the way. That we are now, we've acquired this itty bitty AI company. The market wasn't that impressed. Apparently, the stock... Well it was earnings. I don't know if it was, it wasn't AI, but it was more earnings thing. Just, there wasn't a lot of people impressed that they had bought an AI company with 125 or 50 employees. But why'd they do it? Because the market says if you're not AI, you're not with it, man, you're not hip. It's like the 90s. Like youneeded.com. You better have a website. You better have some e-commerce shit. It's just like the future. The past is present now. Chad: Well, When ADP applies pressure like they have over the past few months and being able to talk about the GenAI that they're putting out and the data that they're actually crunching, not to mention we're talking about HiredScore has mature matching algorithms complete with what Athena would call defendability or explainability. Which is something that Workday does not have. And one of the reasons why they're in court, which we'll talk about. But this is also interesting from the standpoint of a buying binge. Does this start SAP, Oracle, ADP, will the Dominoes start to fall? And then you look at the companies that were sucker punched, in this case, Eightfold. They have close to $400 million in funding. Limited vendors out there can afford them. This is one that is off the table now. This is off the table. Now they're even limited more. Beamery, 223 million. There's no way in hell they're buying Beamery. And then the vendor that I think has the most risk that we've talked about for a while, we haven't talked about here lately is Textio. I mean, they have 42.5 million in funding. But again, these are all companies I believe are at high risk. Chad: With tech and the velocity that's out there today. If they don't sell, they're gonna be worthless. Joel: Yeah. SFX: Just the 10. Joel: HiredScore didn't take any official money VC-wise. From my understanding, they had kind of a sugar daddy or a few people that had money that kind of kept them in the early days going. Chad: Rich friends and family. Joel: This was a sweet deal for Workday. Very little risk. Probably small price tag. Compared to what you're talking about, Eightfold. They do the deal. They probably get some employees. I think Athena's probably gonna move on after her year contract or however long she's there. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: I don't see her enjoying her time at a huge ass company like Workday. And look, Google's Gemini, I'm sure you saw this, hit a huge speed bump with its graphics and producing popes that were black and Vikings that were like, people lost their minds. This is Google. I think there's real questions about if Google can't get AI right, how can a little company in the workspace get it right? I have my questions, but for Workday, it was a market situation where let's do a little risk. We can say we have an AI company. Anyone that think... A lot of our network lost their minds over this deal, that like, revolutionary, amazing. And people that we both respect. And I would caution everybody and throw some cold water on this deal and say, look, if you think that Workday a 20,000 person company, I think at the end of the day, Workday's not gonna change and HiredSolve is gone... HiredScore, sorry. See, I get them mixed up, solved, scored. Chad: I see a lot of the bigger companies really suffocating the platforms that they've bought and then they go away? Taleo is gonna go away. I mean, you take a look at Conexa. BrassRing. You take a look. A lot of these big companies that were big in our space were acquired by larger organizations. And then they were just fricking... They were strangled in the... Not in the crib, by the way, but yeah. They were strangled. Joel: Acquisitions are hard. I mean, you get company cultures, you get politics, you get things that you are not used to. Look, we both applauded when Andrea sold Opening to iCIMS. Would either of us say that iCIMS is greatly different today than it was when they bought her company? Joel: I would say from a technology standpoint internally, yeah. Joel: Greatly... Like, greatly changed the business. Chad: That's the thing is that if you have a HiredScore like this, and we can start to kinda like, push into the next Workday lawsuit, they needed to do something. Their AI was already on trial. Joel: Yeah. Or at least give the impression that we're doing something. We'll see, time will tell if this really does change the company. And iCIMS is a much smaller company than Workday, by the way. Chad: Oh, God yeah. Joel: Workday is a big, big company. All right. All right. Well, time will tell, I guess, on this one, but we agree. Athena great job. Chad: Oh God, yeah. Joel: Hopefully pay out and then in a year or so, you can go do whatever the hell you want. Good for you. Chad: That escalated quickly. Joel: All right. Let's go to lawsuits. Derek Mobley has filed a lawsuit against Workday alleging that it's AI powered hiring software discriminates based on race, age, and disability, violating federal laws. Workday denies wrongdoing, stating and ensures its products comply with laws. The case highlights concerns about AI bias in hiring. But wait, Chad, there's more. HireVue has been partially relieved from a class action lawsuit in Illinois. The court dismissed claims that HireVue profited from selling the data focusing on software sales. Instead, the case highlights legal complexity surrounding biometric data use in hiring me thinks. A trend is developing, Chad. What are your thoughts? Chad: So, Workday, we're just talking about it. Hence the HiredScore acquisition. What Workday needs at this point is a show of contrition through this acquisition with a will do better statement, and then pay a pissy little fine. And thank the Gods, this case was not filed in the EU because a 6% global revenue fine for Workday would've cost them $420 million. So hopefully, HiredScore helps Workday get through this shit together. So I see this almost as an optics play as well. It does make sense from a tech play. I don't know if it'll actually work out that way for Workday, but we'll see. Show of contrition. Sorry. We did wrong. We actually bought these guys over here who understand AI. They can explain AI, etcetera, etcetera. Now, on the HireVue side of the house, collecting biometric data on candidates. I mean, Illinois was the first state to craft what I would like to call an anti HireVue legislation. Chad: And then in Massachusetts. The plaintiff, Jesus, claims that CVS, this is not a claim against HireVue. This is what all companies should be aware of right now. The plaintiff claims CVS, not HireVue, CVS violated state law by subjecting him to an AI powered interview, HireVue that analyzed his facial expressions, eye contact voice annotation, inflection, etcetera, etcetera. So notice that once again, that was not against HireVue, it was against CVS. The bigger issue, I cannot imagine. We know people who work there. We know people who have worked there. I cannot imagine CVS would be happy with the prospect that HireVue is collecting biometric information on CVS's candidates. So the question is, is that actually happening behind the scenes? Just because that the biometric data product isn't available, or at least I don't believe it is anymore, doesn't mean that HireVue doesn't have the capability to actually collect that biometric information. Chad: And that to me is the scary part. If you are a CVS, not only can you be taken to court because of this, but wait a minute, are they collecting data that we don't know that they're collecting? And what are they using that data for? So then I reached out to a few practitioners and asked them about this, and they've freaked the out. One said, it is going to be an interesting case to follow, as it could have huge implications on the tech space. No kidding. It's a fine line between... Listen, it's a fine line between biometric data collection, sentiment analysis, which we hear a lot of companies talk about and lie detectors. SFX: Shall we play a Game? Joel: The recent news that Washington really cares about this issue is promising. It's an election year. We've talked about the chaos that could ensue with deep fakes phone calls from Joe Biden that aren't Joe Biden, that really scares politicians a lot. Well, guess who makes the laws? The politicians. So in the last 60 days, they have moved really fiercely to make sure that Meta and some of these big tech companies, number one, it's illegal now to do that. So the FTC, now, if you're a candidate and you deep fake politicians and like you could be in trouble. We're not sure what those penalties are, but at least, the government has said that's illegal. So the fact that the government cares about these issues to me is a good sign. I don't know where it will go or how fast it will evolve. Joel: But with Washington has their attention on this issue. I don't know who's representing these cases. I don't know if it's Dewey Cheatam & Howe, and our friends, Baron and Budd. But lawyers smell blood in the water. They smell an opportunity where they can go after companies like CVS has more money than HireVue. So like, let's go after them. Workday has a lot of money, LinkedIn, the lawsuit with them. So like, I think it's more lawyers targeting looking at these laws and saying, who can we get? And these are the top of the list. We need a healthy balance of laws, so that everyone knows the rules. And we need, I think a greater certification, a greater sort of third party that has everyone's trust that we're doing it the right way and FairNow. Joel: And companies like that, I think are in a really great position to say, look, we've worked with the government. We have all the AI stuff. We're making sure that every company is dotting their I's and crossing their T's. So if you take us to court, we are certified FairNow, or whoever it is, that they can go into court and say, look, we're the law of the land. We're doing this the right way. Until then, it's still the Wild West. We're gonna talk about more and more lawsuits. More and more customers like CVS are gonna be worried about using vendors that have ai because they're gonna worry about, am I gonna be dragged into court because I'm using this vendor? Well, yeah, you are. And by the way, a lot of these terms and services on these companies say, if you use our shit, you're at fault if it goes to court. Like, we're not at fault if you use our stuff. So something's gotta come to a head. Chad: HireVue specifically did that. Joel: Yes. And more and more will, because nobody wants to be sued. That's not fun. It's bad for business, so to speak. So I think government giving a shit about this is a good thing. Companies that are dedicated to like, let's make sure everyone's following the rules or let's certify people is a good thing. But until then, there's gonna be some stories like this. And more and more stories like this. Chad: Agreed. Joel: Because there's money to be made. Chad: There is. Joel: And speaking, speaking of money to be made, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about Deel doing some deals or at least one deal... Joel: Hey, Workday, hold my beer. Deel. That's D-E-E-L. A $12 billion HR business focusing on distributed workforces, is acquiring Zavvy, an AI-based people development startup. This move aligns with Deels shift towards more AI integration and expanding its service portfolio, Deel plans to make its HR tool free for all existing customers. In terms of the deal, get it, Chad? Terms of the terms of the deal? Was that not good? That was... Chad: Deal. Joel: All right. We're not disclosed, Chad, as TechCrunch says in their article, "consolidation is afoot in the world of HR services." No shit. Chad, what are your thoughts? Chad: So Deel is one of the few unicorns that are killing the game right now. So remember we reported that Deel's annual recurring revenue are over 400 million, and they have been profitable, hear that? Profitable since September, 2022. So Zavvy a people developments, performance and training programs platform, that's not something that you want to build from scratch. So use some of those unicorn blocks to buy something that actually gives you a much faster way to expand your total addressable market. Which means Deel can now go take Zavvy to their 25,000 clients and start expanding wallet share. They're gonna have a free version, it sounds like. Get out there, get the tentacles out there, and then boom, they're gonna have some paid versions. I can almost guarantee you. Let me also quickly point out that the TechCrunch article also said, "originally Deel approached Zavvy with a partnership proposal before making an offer to buy it outright." If you are a startup founder and you don't have an understanding of the power of partnership development, hire someone immediately who does. This is how deals fucking happen. Get it deals. This is how it happens. Joel: I'm not the only one making dad jokes around here people. It's interesting you mentioned partnerships like, going back to the Workday deal. Athena and her team had made a really concerted effort apparently to get into Workday and integrate and build that relationships. So yes, those relationships do pan out many, many, many times. So this is what successful companies do. And that team goes out and says, what pieces do we need? What companies can we target? This wasn't like a small deal. Joel: Zavvy's valuation was 16 million at one point. It's a small deal for Deel. Let's be honest, they were founded in 2021. So they really hadn't gotten a lot of time to get traction. I don't know what it was about them. Clearly it was a piece that they needed, maybe some of their skill sets and the talent that was on the Zavvy team really fit well into what Deel is looking for. Joel: But look, these apex predators, we've talked about it, it's clearance rack time at TJ Maxx. These companies are looking to sell, the runway is shorter than it used to be. The profits aren't what they used to be. It's time to sell. And if Zavvy's not making those calls, Deel and others with money are making those calls. And we're gonna talk a lot about consolidation this year. On the big end, like we're about to talk about, or the big eating a small fish, there's gonna be a lot of consolidation. And I think Deel is gonna be at the forefront of gobbling up some of these companies that are not super expensive, but have a lot of value and are up and coming and fill a need within Deel's feature set. Chad: To one point, Zavvy's only been around for a couple of years. And yet again, they were acquired. Timing, timing. You miss every shot, you don't take. So if you're not creating these partnerships, so if you're not trying to at least talk through, and it takes a while to get these partnerships done, integrations, those types of things doesn't matter. It's fucking worth it. Portfolio penetration. Not to mention also opportunities like this. So no matter how early you are in the funnel as a startup, start having those discussions right out of the gate. Joel: Yeah. And by the way, we talk a lot about the companies who take too much money are the ones that... Are usually the ones on the short end of the stick. Zavvy raised $4 million. That's a really nice place to be as a startup. You're still very saleable. You've got enough money to get you through some timing. So like, applaud their efforts. Going back to Eightfold, going back to Beamery. A lot of money raised, very few options when you do that, and I think that's gonna be prevalent for them in the coming months. Well, we talked about one acquisition that we like. Let's talk about another one that I don't know, I guess the jury... SFX: 60% of the time it works every time. Joel: Might be still out for opinion. Hey, Workday and Deel, hold our beer says, First Advantage, who acquires Sterling Check in a $2.2 billion cash in stock deal to bolster its background screening services. The merger aims to generate at least 50 million in cost savings and create a combined firm with around 1.5 billion in annual revenue. First Advantage, CEO Scott Staples will lead the new entity focusing on AI, tell me if you heard that one before, driven automation and growth opportunities. The deal values each share of Sterling Check at $16.73 cents a share. That's a 35% premium to its previous closing price. Chad, what are your thoughts on these two Megalodons getting together and creating one huge background check company. Chad: I first remembered back that in 2012, Findly acquired First Advantage. Remember that? Findly was a gobbling up companies and they were doing it through Symphony Talent Group money, right before they were rebranded as Symphony Talent. So back then, First Advantage was acquired in 2012. They were then First Advantage was acquired by Silver Lake in late 2019. Silver Lake has raised a total of 3.1 billion in funding over four rounds. Their last funding round on August 1st, 2023. So whether we think background checks are exciting business or not, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. So it's definitely a segment that needs disruption because the personal information a company keeps on an individual should be the individuals not stored in an applicant tracking system or a background check database somewhere. It's what we've been talking about. We've seen European legislation, GDPR and even the US signaling that the days of building resume databases and housing personal information are nearing their end. So knowing all of this, this market segments will be disrupted, much like the little old, OpenAI leaped over big names like Google and that was just in a single bound. I see something like that happening with the background check companies. Now, Silver Lake has a shit ton of cash. The question is, are they going to be looking for that disruptor or are they just gonna sit back on their piles of cash and not worry about it? Joel: I'm gonna go with the latter on that one. Look, we're gonna be going from three publicly traded background check companies to one. HireVue's now gone effectively, they're gonna be CareerBuilder by private equity. Chad: HireRight. Joel: And then these guys... HireRight. Sorry. The edibles are kicking in clearly on this episode. It's interesting that you mentioned history, because I thought back to the early job board days. There was a time where you had CareerBuilder, Monster and HotJobs. CareerBuilder got private equited, and Monster Public Company, HotJobs was public, got bought by Yahoo. Monster went in, bought HotJobs. We know how that ended, how all of that ended. Nobody was better off. Fortunately, you had a disruptor like you mentioned in Indeed at the time. Job postings aren't sexy, but they're not going anywhere. Joel: Background checks aren't sexy, but they're not going anywhere. This is a commoditized business. It's a brace to zero. But when you have two companies that are valued at 2 billion, they come together. Like you can fend off the Meteor shower in the end of days a lot longer, when you make those kinds of moves. But I was thinking about that industry. The question is, is a Checker gonna be the disruptor? I don't know. But I think it's a great opportunity for them to be the non sort of big company and in background checks. I think, we talk about Fama, there's an opportunity for Fama to go upstream where there's still tons of mom and pop background check companies. I know, 'cause I worked with a few of them at employee screen that went off and did their own little background checks. Joel: Like Fama could get more into the holistic background check and social media check business. That would be kind of interesting. But ultimately this is two dinosaurs, cuddling, hoping to fend off the end of the world. What is interesting is when I was researching this deal, both Sterling and First Advantage, well over half of their employee base are in India, which is basically sweatshop for background checks. So if they can just eliminate 40% of that workforce, like they're gonna be more profitable and take a lot of the duplication out of the business. So this will be a nice deal. But look, background checks are still boring. They're still a shitty business. It's still a race to the bottom. And now you'll have less... As a consumer, you'll have less in terms of optionality than you did before. Joel: Which means a raise in prices, which yes, opens the door for a disruptor. If I'm Checker, I'm in some serious meetings because I was less valued in 2021 at $4.6 billion and this deal at half that means we better create some value. We better get the shit in gear and start either buying or merging with companies that can help us. But Checker needs to be really strategic right now and say, this is an opportunity for us and if they take advantage of it, great. If not, we'll have other stuff to talk about. Chad: Hey Ben Mona is over at Fama. If the phone rings and you see it says Checker on it, you might want to answer it. Joel: Yeah. Ben's probably getting a few calls these days. Chad: I'm sure he is... Joel: With all this activity. Oh man... Chad: Good For him. Joel: And what a great guy. Hopefully, we're talking about Fama getting paid here soon. Speaking of getting paid though, Chad. Let's get to Indeed. Which aside from OnlyFans, I think is our full bingo card is full for all of our listeners. It seems like your Indeed resume subscription will be replaced by Indeed Smart sourcing starting on April 2nd. There are some changes to pricing and features such as a price freeze for standard subscriptions, but an increase in additional contact purchases to $5. Professional subscriptions will see a price increase to $400 per month with unlimited additional contacts and shared contacts pricing at $4. The new features in Indeed Smart sourcing, that's a mouthful, focus on automation, matching technology, team collaboration and productivity and probably AI too. Anyway, Chad, what are your thoughts on the Indeed pricing? Chad: You'd think they'd learn. Just changing the name of something doesn't mean that they can just go raise prices. They tried that with the CPSA or whatever the hell they want to call it. Cost per started apply. And that got... That went down in flames. It's like, okay, we're gonna change the name. We're gonna add some of this matching... These great matching algorithms, which we've talked about all the time. LinkedIn, Indeed. Most of these companies who should be amazing at matching candidates to jobs are shit. So all you're doing is giving me your shit tech and then you're charging me more for all of this. No, no, thank you. I wanna go back to the cheaper version, which is not gonna be available. So the question is, will this "pilot" actually be kicked to the curb after all of the people are like, no fuck you. I don't want that. I want what I had. Joel: Yeah. It's easier to get under the radar when it's part of your like terms and service. Or sort of a term terms and service still. Look, this to me is like, okay, customer, you don't want the PPA, you don't want other pricing model. We're gonna stick it to you in a much more subtle way with smart sourcing or like... Of all the names, not like a growth industry, sourcing. Why they would pick, like why not just the Indeed resume coal mining project or something. This is like, we're gonna make money no matter what. We're just gonna do it in a more covert way than we did before. As we're talking about history, Indeed's initial resume access product, you probably remember this, was a dollar per resume. Joel: If you wanted to contact the person, it cost you a dollar, which I thought was beautiful. Like, okay, I see the resume. If I wanna contact this person, I gotta pay a dollar. Like, that's easy. So this is sort of a nickel and dime. It looks small, but it's probably bigger at the end of the day than it was before. But yeah, Indeed, we see you, we see what you're doing. And now all our listeners see what you're doing too. And I hope you get to field a lot of phone calls asking about this new pricing model. This new Indeed Smart sourcing product. Tell them Chad and Cheese sent you. Chad: They'll never learn. They Just won't. Joel: They will never learn. They'll never learn. So evil. All right, man. Let's take a quick break and close them with what they want. A little OnlyFans news. Joel: All right, Chad. Drea de Matteo known for her role in the Sopranos... Chad: Oh, hello. Joel: Credits OnlyFans for saving her life. No shit. Chad: What? Joel: Stating she paid off her mortgage in five minutes joining the platform facing financial difficulties due to being out of work and caring for a parent with dementia, she turned to OnlyFans after having just $10 in her bank account. Chad, what are your thoughts on this life-saving technology called OnlyFans? Chad: Well, two things. First off, just five minutes? And secondly, if it only took five minutes, I wanna see those pictures. 'Cause they've gotta be amazing. They have to... Five minutes to be able to totally just blow away somebody's debt. They've gotta be amazing. She's 52 years old. She looks wonderful, but you'd better be able to see the Jesus toast or something like that out of this. Joel: Well, it highlights the power of OnlyFans, and how many just horny dudes are out there ready to spend some money. If if you don't know her, she was in Sons of Anarchy. She was the girlfriend or sort of the mistress of the main character, but she was also in Joey. Chad: Really? Joel: The spinoff from Friends. Do you remember Joey? Chad: I do not. I never watched it. No. Joel: Oh, did you watch Friends? Chad: Oh yeah, of course. Joel: You weren't too good for friends, were you? Chad: Yeah. Joel: So Friends is over. Joey Tribbiani, he gets his own show. He moves to LA. She played his sister in the show. Her name was Gina Tribbiani. So she was in that. So if you don't know her from the Sopranos, which nobody watched, you probably watched Joey and you remember her from that show. So she was apparently a big anti-Vaxxer. And she went on interviews and she was blackballed by Hollywood apparently, this is part of her story. I did love what she said. She says, "anybody who wants to condemn me and put me down, go for it. I just hope you never find yourself in the position I was in to take care of two little kids." Her house was in foreclosure and she had lost her mom. Like she was in bad times and this thing bailed her out. So the old adage of those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Drea, like you said, Chad is her age. 52, looks great like us. So if this isn't a sign that Chad and Cheese should finally launch our highly anticipated OnlyFans page, then I don't know what is. I mean, come on man. I got three kids still at home and you got a blossoming real estate empire in Europe. Let's do a Thalman Louise. Let's hold hands and jump off this cliff together. What do you say, lover boy? Chad: No. Joel: Shit. Chad: We out. We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Oh, maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

This week on The Chad & Cheese Podcast Does Europe, the boys dive into the world of recruitment aggregators and the challenges they face with the rise of AI in talent acquisition. They discuss how some aggregators are adapting with personalization and AI capabilities, while others struggle to evolve and invest, potentially leading to their demise. The podcast also covers the potential rise of pay-per-apply models driven by AI predictions. Plus, they share their thoughts on recent industry news, including the shutdown of Finnish HRtech startup Workfellow, the launch of Amsterdam-based Samen Slimmer AI's venture Qneiform, the legal ruling affecting anonymity of reviewers on sites like Kununu, HelloWork's impressive growth and the birth of JobiJoba (what?) and a whole lot more. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. [music] Intro: Hide your kids, lock the Doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah. Three guys who just imposed a few sanctions of their own on Russia. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, Does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel Jamieson Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad, short-form video, Sowash. Lieven: I'm Lieven, did I mention we're organizing E-recruitment Congress yet? Van Nieuwenhuyze. Joel: Once or twice. Once or twice. On this episode, AI threatens, Germany tells Kununu, ku-no-no and HelloWork, more like Hello Prophets. Am I right? Let's do this. Chad: They're not called sanctions when you do it Cheeseman, they're called spanctions. [laughter] Lieven: Step bro. Joel: Spanctions. What's up boys? Chad: Another day in paradise, kids. I'm just excited. I'm getting prepped for a little, I don't know, time in Amsterdam. Time with Lieven, huh? Joel: Hello? Lieven: Yeah. Some love in Amsterdam. SFX: What are you doing step-bro? Joel: Are you excited to see us Lieven? Lieven: I am. I actually am. It's been so long. Chad: It has been a while. Lieven: So long. Joel: Lieven parachutes in on those shows and we see him for like 12 minutes. Chad: He does. Joel: And he's out. He's James Bond of conferences. Chad: Comes in, shakes some babies, kisses some hands. Lieven: Busy, busy, busy. Joel: So Lieven, I'm curious. We're getting a lot of new stories and editorials here in the US about the two year anniversary of Ukraine. As a European what's the consensus there? What's the talk over there, across the pond about Ukraine? Lieven: We're still deciding on not letting Russia win. Macron, the French President, just for the first time mentioned sending troops to Ukraine. And that's something, yeah it's something different. It's something else than just sending our F-16, sending troops. SFX: Shoutout. Chad: All right. Shout out to the EU. That's right. This is the European podcast. It just makes sense. Joel: That's why we do this show man. Chad: The EU will investigate whether ByteDance's TikTok breached online content rules aimed at protecting children and ensuring transparent advertising. EU industry chief, Thierry Breton, stated "Today, we open an investigation into TikTok over suspected breach of transparency and obligation to protect minors." A lot behind that. TikTok's owner, ByteDance, could face fines up to 6% of its global turnover, that's global revenue for all you Americans out there, if TikTok is found guilty of breaching DSA rules. Now, expected revenues for TikTok in 2024, $9.4 billion, 6% of that would be over half a billion Euros. This! I love me some TikTok, but I love this new fine structure even better from the EU and hopefully the US looks to adopt it. Joel: All right, I skipped to my shout. Here's a teaser. SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, if it's not Scottish, it's trash. Joel: Alright, on last show, I mentioned, I gave a shout to Six Nations, the rugby tournament. There's a great Netflix documentary, which I think Chad, you just watched or watched some episodes. February, like beginning of March in the US is horrible for sports. Football's over, hockey's like right in the season. Basketball, no one cares like until March Madness, we have this gap. And thank God that Six Nations for me, I'm embracing it. We had Scotland and England. Lieven: Yeah. Joel: Which are two of the better teams apparently. It was what one, LinkedIn connection told me was a cracker, which apparently is a good game. [laughter] Joel: If it's a cracker. Cracker has a different meaning in the US but if a game is a cracker, it's a hell of a game. So I'm down with it. I got Peacock just so I can watch these things. We're gonna be in Europe for St. Patrick's Day. St. Patrick's Day, we get Ireland versus Scotland. I'm all in, I'm down with it. Another shout out to Six Nations and rugby in general. Chad: It's like Italy's get another wooden spoon. Joel: Wooden spoon. And Ireland, two years straight. Scotland could stand in the way. It's gonna be an interesting game. Chad: Ireland is a fucking juggernaut, dude. Joel: And I gotta tell you, Chad, as a parent, you try to embrace things that your kids enjoy. Chad: Yes. Joel: For whatever reason, my son loves Manchester England and he loves Man United. Chad: There we go. Joel: So we have bonded in the last few weeks over Manchester United... Chad: Dig it. Joel: Who's a pretty good team, with some pretty good players. So yeah, I'm embracing Premier League Soccer as well. God help me. Lieven: Man U are crackers. Don't you use it like that. Joel: We are crackers. Yes. Yes. Lieven: You said... Chad: Man U and crackers. Did you see what he just did there? My God. What's your shout out Lieven? Lieven: My shout out actually has something to do with recruitment. Joel: Yeah. Lieven: Which brings us back to our business. It's a shout out to Accent's new CEO, and Accent is one of our bigger companies within the group. They have new CEO and this is nothing new because we have 52 companies. There's constantly some new CEO somewhere. But this one is actually pretty interesting. His name is Stijn Vandervorst, and he used to be working for the past, I think 12 years or something in Japan where he was a president of... I keep forgetting how to pronounce the name in English. Chad: Adidas. Joel: Adidas. Lieven: Adidas. That's the one. Chad: Adidas. Lieven: Adidas. Joel: You got a premier league spot. Lieven: Maybe I should call it Nike, it's easier. But it was Adidas. And the thing I like about it is he's really experienced within e-commerce. And I've been saying for years, we should manage our recruitment like e-commerce website. Because it's about speed and it's about convenience and it's about trust. So I'm very happy now we're bringing someone with that background into our company in a senior role so we can speed the digital recruitment up a bit. So welcome Stijn and my up-sucking is finished for now. Thanks. [laughter] Joel: Love it. Love it, love it. Well, do I hear... [music] Lieven: Yeah! Chad: That's the Kebu playlist. What's going on here? Lieven: Yeah. Chad: The E-recruitment Congress Kebu playlist. I love it. Joel: Kebu. That must mean we're going to Europe to see Lieven pretty soon. I can't wait. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Lieven. Tell us about this Kebu thing, tell us about the Congress, what the hell is going on? Chad: Well, first off, first off, you can't see it because we don't have it on video. Maybe I'll pull it out. But Lieven's face just lit up as soon as the synthesizer started playing. Joel: The white guy over by with the dance hands. [laughter] Lieven: I think. I think Kebu is a cracker. [laughter] Lieven: He's a cracker. Chad: All right, so what are we doing in, what are we doing in Amsterdam? Lieven: What you'll be doing in Amsterdam? I don't know, but Kebu is cool. And by the way, you promised me not to do it before the end of the Congress. So yeah, Congress, when is it? March 19th in Amsterdam. But we were talking about Kebu, Kebu is a Finnish guy and he's absolute specialist on analog synthesizers. And his channel has over 150 million views. So he's really big in a very small community and a community of synthesizer nerds. But the guy is really cool. He has a huge collection of vintage synthesizers. He is going to start his European tour with our Congress. So he'll be bringing some numbers during the show, during the Congress, but afterwards, I think it starts at 6pm or something, he's going to bring his whole new album, which will be synthesizer legends. And you just heard, I think it was what did we hear? Miami Vice? No? Joel: Jan Hammer. Ron Kebu. [laughter] Lieven: Jan Hammer. Of course. Yeah. It was... SFX: Oops, winning. Lieven: Isn't it from Miami Vice? Isn't that the opening tune? Joel: No, that's original. I've never heard that. Chad: That's a Kebu. Lieven: Oh yeah. No, but that one was a cover from, I think from in Miami Vice somewhere. Jan Hammer composed it. Chad: Yeah, you got me. Lieven: Yeah. Jan Hammer was a Czech synthesizer guy in the '80s, I think. And he was the Miami guy opening tune composer. But I think this wasn't maybe Miami Vice. Chad: Lieven listens to synthesizer podcasts by the way, guys. Joel: Here's all we have to know. A bunch of Europeans wearing black with a disco ball, keyboard... Lieven: It's not... No, no, no. Joel: If a keytar doesn't come out, I don't want it. There better be a keytar and working the boards. Lieven: It's even better than a keytar. He is got like those roll-ons... Joel: 200 of Kebu's biggest fans. I can't wait to see these people. It's going to be nuts. Lieven: I'll be standing on the front row because it's going to be a cracker. It's gonna be a cracker. [laughter] Lieven: Okay, so Kebu, it's one of the reasons why you have to be at E-recruitment Congress. Joel: Yes. Lieven: The guy came, especially from Finland, or will be coming, especially from Finland with a van filled up to the roof. Joel: He was in a Volkswagen van from 1967. [laughter] Lieven: He is going to be driving for two days straight on to be just on time to bring his famous Kebu songs. You'll love it, you'll love it. Joel: I love it. Give us those dates again Lieven and where they can sign up? Lieven: March 19th in Muziekgebouw, Amsterdam, which is a beautiful location. It's the best concert hall in Amsterdam and the Netherlands, I'm sure. It's amazing. Also, the tech will be wow. And Chad and Cheese will be hosting, so. Chad: Yeah, and that's where you sign up. You go to chadcheese.com/events. Chadcheese.com/events. That's where you sign up. There's even a discount code that Lieven doesn't want you to use, but use it. Lieven: No, because I was just... I was just going to say it's almost sold out. So we don't actually want people using discount codes anymore. So we would like everyone to pay the full... Yeah. It's only 680 Euros and you get Kebu. Kebu, I mean. Chad: Here is the code. Joel: Kebu is in the house everybody. Lieven: Author Hilke Schellmann, maybe for some people that will be more impressive than Kebu. Hilke Schellmann who just wrote a book, The Algorithm. You had her in our podcast. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Love me some Hilke. Lieven: Love you some Hilke indeed. Chad: Love me some Hilke and some AI. [music] SFX: Topics. Lieven: Topics. Joel: Lieven, did you have a thought there? Chad: No, he was doing topics. Lieven: I said topics. Joel: Oh, you said topics. Okay. All right guys. Is AI a threat or not? Recruitment aggregators are facing change with the rise of AI and talent acquisition. Some may struggle as AI-driven candidate applications increase impacting demand and ad spend. Those adapting with personalization and AI capabilities may thrive while others could perish due to a lack of evolution and investment. Pay-per-apply models might become more prevalent as AI helps predict application volumes. Winners, losers, Chad, your thoughts. Chad: Job boards have had to, job sites, any technology in the space has had to evolve quickly. And now because of the velocity of how fast everything's moving from a technology standpoint, it's gonna be more important than ever. Being able to just focus on PPC as we saw, Indeed tried to get a pay-per-application and pay-per-start and apply. They had a false start. I see them no question in the future doing that, going down the funnel and I see every other job board or job aggregator that's out there, they're going to have to do the same. You can't just play the same on the surface level model that you did before. You're gonna have to start going down the funnel and start looking for cost-per-qualified candidates. Did the person actually meet the requirements in the job, much like an MQL. Chad: So in sales and marketing for years, they've had MQLs, the actual qualified marketing leads, right? We need to get to something like that as well. Where we're going down the funnel, we know they meet the qualifications and that is worth a hell of a lot more than just a stink and click. Candidate screening and matching, candidate testing, if you take a look at, like LinkUp for instance, they used to be an aggregator and they've pivoted into the data side of the house. So I see a lot of these smaller job boards focusing on down funnel, more qualified. And then some of these bigger organizations, like a LinkUp did, they pivoted into data. So there's be a lot of pivoting that's happening. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Let's have a little history lesson kids. So in the early days of job boards, you would generally pick a category, sales, nursing, whatever, and then you would pick a location and then it would serve you the jobs in date order, not exactly the most efficient way to look for jobs. Keyword search came into it, which also led to keyword stuffing and keyword density issues. People putting all kinds of words in job postings. The algos got better. They knew titles were more important than say like text at the bottom of the page. Long story short, we haven't gone that far from where we originated 20, 25 years ago. I talk about LinkedIn on a fairly regular basis about how bad their related searches are. LinkedIn, okay, Microsoft owned, OpenAI, connected, engaged. It still thinks that I'm looking for host jobs at my local Chili's and Applebee's because I'm a co-host of a podcast. Not exactly mind-blowing AI going on at LinkedIn. Chad: Well, you actually go to those establishments a lot. Joel: LinkedIn, it's not tracking my location, I'm sure. Chad: You don't know that. Joel: Maybe it is. Maybe it is. Listen to this week's podcast. But I just think it's sort of a silly conversation because there are only few companies that have gotten this right, like Netflix. Netflix found out that people waste 17.8 minutes on average browsing possible TV and movie options before they actually select what they wanna watch. It's much more efficient to get better about what people wanna watch. TikTok grew because I didn't have to search, I didn't have to follow anybody. It just knew that I wanted bug fights and big booty Latinas, like magically knew that about me and kept serving me that because... Chad: Magically. Chad: It's my preference. Can anyone really see a day where we go to any job site and it just serves up what we want. I don't anytime soon, maybe, maybe not, but is this a threat? To me, this is a non-issue because we're so far behind TikTok and Netflix in this game that I don't even know why it's a discussion. We're still in the dark ages in recruitment and job search and knowing what people want and how to give them what they want, even when they don't even know that they want it like TikTok. So for me, like, it's a fun post to say is AI a threat and AI is on the tip of everyone's tongue. But look, we're still basically help wanted ads in the window, but that window has become a computer screen and we're still searching much like we did 20, 25 years ago. Lieven: So I think Joel, you're saying we need kittens, more kittens in the vacancies. Joel: I said bug fights. Lieven: I'm playing... Latinos, Latinos you said, right? Joel: Maybe some more Kebu. Lieven: Kebu. Yeah. Joel: Oh my God. It's like Pavlov's dog with him, man. Lieven: Anyway, okay. So if you ask the aggregators, will AI be a threat? They'll say, of course it won't be a threat. We will use it to offer better matchmaking. And thanks to AI, aggregators will be able to offer a better user experience by integrating high quality chatbots and blah, blah, blah. But if you look at aggregators today, why are they very good? Or why are they very known? It's because of excelling in search engine marketing. They own the search engine results pages. Lieven: Indeed, for example, is top of class, at least in Europe, and I guess in the US as well, in search engine marketing. The problem is search engines, they offer you websites. If you ask something, you get a list of websites. But tools like ChatGPT and Gemini and Copilot, they offer you answers. You ask a question, you get answers. So just imagine if you ask, and I did it, if you ask Gemini and Copilot and ChatGPT, something like, give me a list of five major companies which are hiring engineers in Brussels today, have a good reputation and pay better than average, then they won't tell you to go to Indeed. They'll just offer you a list with hiring companies. And they offer you the answer. And the intermediary is cut out, they're eliminated. And this might become a problem if you ask me for those aggregators, because ChatGPT is taking over their job as a platform. And I tried it and just with the three big ones, Copilot really sucks and they suck mostly at everything today. Lieven: So, but they suck at this as well and in a bad way. Gemini gave a pretty good answer, but ChatGPT like always was the best. And it actually offered me 5 major companies in Brussels hiring maintenance engineers. And according to some websites, ChatGPT claims to have checked, offered a bigger than average salary. And I checked the sites and it was right, those companies were actually hiring. So this is still basic, basic, but it could make a very big difference. And of course, I know those companies used to be good in search engine marketing, so probably they will become very good in AI optimization. But still, it's something new and they'll have to adapt. But we were talking about Kebu, right? [music] Joel: Behavior-wise, I go, someone dies, I'm like, how old was so-and-so? And Google just gives me the answer. I don't have to go to a website about the... I don't have to go to Wikipedia and their website, it just gives me the answer. I mean, job search for the most part is still archaic. I can't just say, what are the best jobs for SEOs in Indianapolis? And it gives me the 10 best. I still have to do some stuff. It doesn't just give me the answer. But what Lieven mentions is a real possibility. At some point, AI could know so much about you on Google or wherever we are, our Copilot will know what our profile is, it'll know what the jobs are out there and it'll say like, hey, there's a perfect job for you. You want me to apply to it? Sure. And it does the interview for you and it schedules you for the whatever like that's a real... Chad: Too far. Joel: That could happen, but it's probably not going to happen out of Indeed. It's probably going to happen out of the Google or like a big big AI company. Chad: Yeah, I don't know. I really see that... Okay, so first and foremost, all these AI models we've talked about, it's a commodity. Everybody has them, everybody's going to have them. Right? So they're going to be everywhere. The thing that differentiates all of those AI models is data. That's it. So if you take a look at some of these, let's say for instance, like a niche job board. They go into their database and they go into their database of candidates and then they start training off of the jobs that they're saying on a daily basis, come into the feeds and out. Chad: So you've got the job market side of the house. Then you also have the candidate data. And then you invite them back to answer more information, that kind of thing. And then you start to create a model that's more of an engagement model than it is just sit and wait. Because that's what we have now. We just sit back and we wait for stupid LinkedIn emails to come to you. They just don't match. We have technology and everybody's gonna have the technology to be able to match that much faster and then reach out via SMS, via email, whatever it is, say this job looks perfect for you. And then since we have your information, how about a one-click apply? I think that's much closer than you think. We have, I agree, been in the dark ages, but I expect, again, with the velocity of all this tech and how fast things are moving. That a lot of these companies, we'll talk about one of them later, a lot of these companies are going to have to. They're gonna be forced to change very quickly or die. Joel: The challenge is you're on Google every day, you're on Facebook every day. I mean, people go to job sites when they need a job, and then they don't go back. I mean, LinkedIn is the most probable winner in this. Because I know you're gonna say only recruiters and salespeople go to LinkedIn. Which that's a valid point. But I personally spend way more time on LinkedIn than any job board and they still suck at it. So like... Chad: You're in this industry. So yeah. Joel: But I'm there and they still don't know that much about me, apparently. Chad: No, I agree. Joel: So how can Indeed, where I go every two or three years because I need a job, how are they gonna know what my preferences are? Like it's really hard. Chad: Again, it flips the model, it flips the model. Instead of LinkedIn sitting there waiting for you to actually come in and do your thing, it's all about being able to force engagement, right? To be able to bring people back in by giving them relevant content, which job boards have not done for years. As you'd said, co-host, right? Has nothing to do with restaurants. Joel: If Indeed could just figure out how to bring bug fights into my job search, I'd be there a lot more often. [laughter] Chad: But again, that comes down to the going down the funnel. To be able to be more sticky, you have to get more data. To be able to get more relevant, you have to get more data, right? And these companies, these job sites have to get... These technologies have to get more sticky. Joel: Lieven, any thoughts before we transition? Lieven: No, no thoughts. Joel: We'll take a break from this. And come back with some hot takes. Chad: Should hit the Kebu again. Joel: All right, you want some more Kebu? Yeah, you know our listeners want some more of this. [music] Chad: Oh yeah. This is now what we're gonna call the hot take playlist. Joel: Hot take playlist. Because nothing's hotter than Kebu's keyboard, baby. All right. Lieven: By the way I checked, and this actually is Miami Vice. It's a theme song of Miami Vice and Kebu... No, sorry, Jan Hammer, he composed it. He composed the music for 90 episodes of Miami Vice until 2006. Joel: Is he gonna show up in a white suit with some pink T-shirt and some tapered bottoms? Chad: Enough Kebu already for God's sakes, Jesus. Lieven: And a Ferrari. Joel: Let's get to some hot take. Finnish HRtech startup Workfellow has ceased operations due to challenges faced in 2023, leading to bankruptcy. Founded in 2019, the company raised $3 million in seed funding led by OpenOcean with additional backing from Icebreaker.vc, both of which sound very Finnish. As in Finland for our US listeners. And a few angel investors. Lieven, you got a few thoughts on Workfellow. What you got? Lieven: Only one, just one. They used to be Finnish, but now they're finished. Next. [laughter] Lieven: I'm so funny. Chad: A dad joke. Lieven: Kebu is Finnish too and he's not finished. Joel: Kebu brings the best out of Lieven, doesn't it? Lieven: I know. Chad: So it's interesting because it looks like a Workfellow, much like SmartRecruiters, had a botched acquisition. Lieven: A what? Chad: Botched acquisition. They had an acquisition that was starting to come through and it just fell apart, right? I went on to Crunchbase to check out more about Workfellow, because I didn't know that much about them. And this is the description of the organization. "Workfellow is a work intelligence platform to accelerate enterprise digital transformation journey. Plug and play to see the next best development cases all the time." SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad: What the fuck was that? Then you get into their areas of solution. Digital transformation. Most people don't even know what the fuck that means. Improved automation, process development in accounting, real estate, telecom, global BPO, and procurement was supposed to be coming soon. I mean, they are all over the map. One of the biggest issues we see with startups is that they overcomplicate the problem, the product, and the solution story, right? And they don't stay disciplined in a specific category. Accounting, real estate, telecom, global BPO. What the fuck man? They're all over the place. It was too broad, too fast without the funds obviously, that they need. They only had 6.1 million USD. So this doesn't surprise me. Again, we see this with startups a lot. There's not enough discipline, they go all over the place, they try to PhD the marketing, and it all just implodes. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: I echo all of that. You know, when I first started reading through it, I thought, man, these guys just timed it just badly, because it's the year of efficiency, and what these guys do is make your organization more efficient. So in a world where they should be kicking ass, they're filing for bankruptcy. So, Chad, you're right on in that startups. You're in that seed round, that pre... That three to five million dollars. Focus, focus, focus. You need to be focused, and your customers and prospects need to know what the hell you do. If you can't explain it in an elevator ride or a three by five postcard, it's too complicated. You need to dumb it down. And we find this with companies. You said PhD it to death. You get too many brains, maybe there's a little desperation like well, this product isn't working, let's focus on this market. Oh, that's not working, focus on this. And before you know it, you're a salad of chaos. And what the hell are we doing? So, yeah. Chad: And no calories. Joel: And by the way, they hired too many people. They had almost 30 people hired. I mean, you can go through a few million dollars with 30 people, 30 employees real fast. And by the way, most of those people were not salespeople bringing in cash. So this was mismanaged, it was badly marketed, and it was like too much, too fast. And now, they are Finnish'd with two Ns. Thank you, Lieven for that. Lieven: You're so welcome. Chad: Anything to add, Lieven? Did you know these guys well or at all? Lieven: No, I've never heard about them. Joel: You could have bought them for real cheap. Lieven: Yeah, I checked their website, but I didn't know them before, but if they were launched in 2019, so they had a few years to spend the three million they got. But indeed, if you hire 30 people, it goes fast. Joel: They're the most happiest country on the planet, so I think they're probably going to do just fine. SFX: Another one. Lieven: Wasn't that Norway? Could be. Joel: All right, well, from Finland to Amsterdam. Lieven: Yeah. Joel: The Amsterdam-based Samen Slimmer has launched its first venture, Qneiform. Qneiform, based in Budapest, or as Chad likes to say, Budapest, also in London and the Netherlands, aims to transform talent acquisition in finance and law. Samen Slimmer AI put in 700,000 Euros in investment and a dedicated engineering team to help startups like Qneiform bring their products to market quickly. Don't say QAnon, it's Qneiform. Chad, your thoughts? Chad: Well, if there is any segment in this industry that needs disruption, it's executive search. So using algorithms to be able to identify, engage, and place executives faster will provide an opportunity for this company to squeeze competitor margins with lower fees and still make one hell of a profit. So I think there's no question. You take a look at some of the very high margin companies that are out there, executive search has been, and I believe it will continue to be that. How do you make it faster? How do you make it stronger? How do you make it cheaper, but still get a nice size margin? I like these guys. I like these guys so much that I might book a trip to Budapest just to... SFX: Oops, winning. Joel: I knew I'd get you to say it. Budapest. All right. Okay. Front runner for worst brand ever in our space. Qneiform is awful. No one can spell that, I can barely say it. Chad: That's a very good point. Joel: Like change the name ASAP. It's a horrible name. Okay, that aside, we don't know a ton about these guys because they are an invite only. You have to get on the waitlist to sort of see behind the curtain. But clearly, they're doing things right financially. They're growing at an organic pace. If you look at their LinkedIn data, they're adding headcount at a pretty organic rate with, I assume, profits. Their CEO has experience in recruiting. He was doing it for seven years apparently prior to the organization. I do think these segments of law and others are just right for innovation and disruption. And probably my favorite thing about this company is they're not afraid to talk a little trash. This is a quote from I think their blog post. It says, "Moonhub, Eightfold, Chad's favorite, Findem, HeroHunt, PeopleGPT all promised to revolutionize recruitment yet are based on the same poor quality data that has plagued recruitment for decades." Joel: So any startup who's willing to trash Eightfold, frankly, gets gold stars in my book. So Qneiform, change the name and you're onto something my friends. Chad: Executive Search, you know a little bit about this Lieven, right? Lieven: Yeah. You just said if there is one business that needs disruption, it's executive search. I'm not sure about that, but I'm sure if there's one business that is getting disrupted right now, it's law and the business where you don't want to be in today, I think as a search and selection agency is in law profiles because all those jobs are getting automated right now. So where you used to have like one lawyer and five people helping the big lawyer, you'll only have one person helping the big lawyer right now. And there will come a day where the lawyer himself will be able to use tools like ChatGPT. So I think this is right behind translators is going down fast. I think finance is a very good runner up. So if those people, Qneiform, that's it, are specializing now in finance and in law, I wouldn't be the one investing in it, but that's only my two cents. Joel: Good enough. Good enough. SFX: Another one. Joel: All right. From Finland to Amsterdam and Budapest to Germany. In Germany, the Hamburg Higher Regional Court, which I've never been in, has ruled that companies have the right to know the identity of reviewers on sites like Kununu. For our American listeners, that's the equivalent of Glassdoor in Europe. Rejecting anonymity for reviewers, employers can also have reviews deleted, citing the need for review authenticity and employer protection against false reviews. Chad, your thoughts on the Kununu, no, no. [laughter] Chad: So in Europe, I'm sure this is a different country by country, but in Europe, I would expect that all of the worker protections that are in place would allow for employees to feel like they can be more transparent without employer retaliation, unlike here in the US when you fire somebody for looking cross-eyed at somebody. So Lieven, there are better workplace protections, especially in Germany, where they have strong unions. So why might employees feel like they need to be anonymous? Is there that fear that's there? Because you do have better protections than many, many other areas in the world. Lieven: If you're still working for the company, it's probably not a good idea to publicly complain about your employer. So then you might want to become anonymous because you want to stay there, but you also want to complain. But to be honest, I totally agree. Anonymous complaints should be banned because it's just not fair. If you want to attack a company, you have to be open with it and you have to be blunt enough to say it. It's just too easy to be anonymous and to tell all kinds of things if you can't be confronted with your talk. So I tend to agree with the banning of it. Chad: Yeah, I think the Kununus of the world, the Glassdoors of the world, one thing they can't do is ensure that that individual actually worked for the organization, right? It could be just trolls talking shit. Lieven: Yeah, of course. It could be a competitor. Chad: Yeah, that was one of the reasons why this ruling went that way, because you need to be able to prove the accuser did actually work, number one. And then secondarily, again, there are worker protections in place in Europe. But again, I think this is a much different discussion happening in the EU versus here in the US. Joel: Yeah This is from Publishers Weekly. I'm sure a publication we all read on a regular basis. Lieven: On a weekly basis, even. Joel: Weekly, sorry. Sorry. Yes. There you go. This is going to prove my point exactly. "The percent of US adults who read novels or short stories declined at a 17% rate from 45.2% in 2012 to 37.6% in 2022, the lowest share on record." Kununu doesn't have a legal problem, they have a humanity problem. No one reads anymore. These sites like Glassdoor and Kununu that rely on people literally going to a keyboard, and typing what's it like, the pros and cons of a company are so yesterday. People want to go on TikTok, they want to go on Instagram, they want to talk trash, and by the way, anonymity doesn't matter anymore. Gen Z doesn't care. They want the dopa hit of the likes and the love that they're going to get on TikTok. Joel: They don't care about upsetting a company. They'd rather get people love them on TikTok. So to me, the real threat to these guys is not the law, it's that people don't write or read anymore until they adopt some sort of video way to review these things. But even then, it's going to fail because no one's going to hang out at Kununu for video reviews. They're going to hang out on TikTok where in between the big booty Latinas, I get an occasional rant about how much it sucks working at Walmart. That's what people want to watch, that's the kind of content that people want to put on the internet. So to me, Glassdoor, Kununu, these are antiquated businesses. Who cares what the courts do? The human condition is going to put these folks out of business. They have bigger problems than the Hamburg Higher Regional Court. Chad: How long does Kununu have do you think, or even Glassdoor have before they are literally worthless? Joel: This is where I get into trouble, Sowash, because you put me on the hook for when is something going to die, and then I say it's going to die, and then you go online and say Cheeseman says Glassdoor is dead, and then all these haters come out. Chad: You love it. Joel: I love that dopa hit, and you love the dopa hit, so we're just as guilty as everyone else. But if these companies are around in 10 years, I'll be shocked. Chad: Yeah. How about you Lieven? What do you think? Lieven: Eight years. Eight years, yeah. Chad: Eight years. I'm going to bet a dollar. Go ahead. Lieven: I think we're going to cancel them all. The generation, what's it called, is going to cancel them all. Joel: Gen Z. Chad: Alpha, after them. SFX: Another one. Joel: All right. HelloWork, a France-based job board operator reported a 15.9% year-on-year revenue increase to USD 117 million in 2023, attributing its growth to acquisitions and investments in innovation. The company, which doubled in size over four years, plans further acquisitions and international expansion despite the recent passing of co-founder Jerome Armbruster which we talked about on the show. HelloWork has apparently achieved what few other job boards have done recently, continued growth and internationalization. Chad, what's your take on HelloWork? Chad: How can you have a job board with such a great name like HelloWork.com and then another one that you're talking about taking to the US, Jobijoba. Jobijoba I mean, I think it's a dot com. I can't remember. Anyway, those two sites accounted for 70% of the revenue, right? That's pretty legit. The company had previously said that it earmarked a minimum of $55 million for acquisitions between '23 and '26. So they're looking to acquire, they're looking to spread out and go to the US. But wait, there's more. Wait, there's more. Jobijoba once again is going to have a budget of several millions of Euros allocated to market it in the US. Joel: And they're going to need every penny of it. Chad: Yeah, I just don't understand why organizations who are doing incredibly well don't double down where they're doing well, because they understand that market. Taking Jobijoba... I'm making a prediction, taking Jobijoba to the US is going to crash. Right? And all the millions of Euros that they spend is going to be for naught. I hate to see this. I really hate to see this. I'd rather see HelloWork and Jobijoba stay in the EU, do really well, get better penetration. Joel: That's right. A job board success story. Chad: It is. Joel: Not so fast. Chad: It is. Joel: Not so fast, my friend. Chad: Not here. Joel: Not so fast. All right. The numbers look great, but I think they're a tad bit skewed. Chad: Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Joel: They've made acquisitions, which bring in money, but you haven't really innovated or built more customers. You've just bought companies that bring in more money. So that's great. But is it really like robust growth? I question that. Increased visibility, they quoted that in the press release. Increased visibility is Latin for a lot of advertising dollars. And like I said, they're going to need it for Jobijoba, Jabba the Hutt or whatever the fuck this job board's name is. So they're spending more. They're adding to the bottom line because they're spending more. You get the theme here, they're spending more, they're coming to different countries. Again, they're spending more money to set up shop in the UK, they're coming to Spain, Switzerland according to the press release. Look, it's pretty easy to copy and paste and open up in new countries, spend more money and hire more people there. They're falling into the same trap of Indeed, ZipRecruiter. It's this never ending cycle of spend more money, get more money in clients posting stuff. But you have to spend more money to get candidates to come to the site, which then apply to that. It's like this never ending cycle of advertising. And as soon as you shut that off, the traffic dries up. We've seen it multiple times in our... Chad: Super-bowl ads. Joel: Yeah, period in this industry. And good God, a name like Jobijoba makes Qneiform look like a good brand name. Good Lord. Who's in the marketing department at this company? We're taking Jobijoba to the US. Are you fucking kidding me, dude? Are you fucking kidding me? Chad: Wait a minute, Lieven loves him. His favorite T-shirt is his Jobijoba T-shirt. Lieven: I love myself a Jobijoba, but... Joel: I want a Jobijoba T-shirt. Hit me up. I'll give you my address in the US, and I'll be the first American to wear the Jobijoba brand on our shores, I promise. Chad: You can just send some to Lieven in Amsterdam and we'll just pick 'em up there. It'd be much easier. Joel: Yes. Give me a case of Duval and put that in the box. Lieven: So people, I feel obliged... Listeners of Chad and Cheese, I feel obliged to tell you something. Every time Jobijoba was mentioned, they'll get one bottle. They were promised by Jobijoba one bottle each time they mentioned their name. So this explains. Anyways, we were talking about HelloWork... Chad: It is fun to say. Lieven: HelloWork, not Jobijoba. Does it come for me as well? Getting the bottles? Jobijoba. But HelloWork. It's French and that's about anything positive I can say about them I feel. I prefer Jobijoba. Joel: Maybe that makes sense. It's a European name, but I'm telling you as an American my whole life, this Jobijoba is not happening in America. It ain't. Chad: Well, I mean they're looking to expand the UK. They've got all these other areas that they're looking to expand again. Joel: Unless they call Disney and get Jabba the Hutt as their spokesperson, Jobijoba is not happening... Chad: It's still not going to. Joel: In America. Chad: Still not going to work. Lieven: I love it. Chad: Something that looks like a big pile of shit. SFX: 60% of the time... Chad: Is not attracting people. SFX: It works everytime. Joel: Okay All right. Let's move on to Goot Job. Yeah. Germany's Zeit Publishing Group has acquired a majority stake... Chad: Zeit. Joel: In Berlin's GoodJobs, not Goot Jobs. Terms were not disclosed. GoodJobs ensures job postings aim to have a positive impact on the environment and society. The group sees the investment as expanding its offering to a relevant and attractive market segment, which is Latin for Gen Z. Chad, what are your thoughts on GoodJobs? Chad: I think I want to hear from Lieven on this one. This is... We talked about in podcasts past about newspapers getting behind some of these organizations, which provides more power obviously and money to them. Here in the US, we kind of laugh at that, but Lieven had actually said that that's something that actually means something over there. Give me some feedback here Lieven, what do you think about this? Lieven: So GoodJobs is focusing on social and sustainable jobs. So if you ask me, it smells like underpaid. So GoodJobs might sound good, but it's not so good paid jobs, I feel, definitely in Germany. But anyways, if you're Gen Z and you want to make yourself useful, definitely go to Goodjobs.eu and become a better person. I myself was from Gen X and I went for the money. SFX: Oops winning. Lieven: So GoodJobs you have goods, then you have better, and you have best, but you can start at GoodJobs. Chad: Yeah, I mean the only thing I can say about this is again, we're still seeing whether we like it or not, proliferation of job boards that are not just going out there as in HelloWork and the HelloWork group actually making cash, but they're getting investment. Again, the market is much different in Europe than it is in the US but still there's cash to be had and the there are hills of job boards and obviously GoodJobs is seeing some of the good cash. Joel: Yeah, I think on the weekly show, we talked about Hatch in Australia and I said yeah somebody must've been stung by a scorpion or some other poisonous, somebody at GoodJobs had some bad schnitzel in this case. Look, I know everyone wants to be the cool thing. They want to be like Gen Z darlings. This ain't your daddy's Studebaker, right? They want to be the cool thing. We're all about the environment, we're all about all those things that Gen Z loves. And unfortunately for X, all the three X'ers on this call, Gen Z is the future. They're the largest generation the world has ever seen, I believe. Anyone can correct me on that, which means they're going to be a myriad of services and products that are aimed to get their business. And for better or worse, the kids love the ESG narrative and GoodJobs and Hatch are a trend that we all get to enjoy as old white people, that this is the way that it's going to be. Is it going to be successful? I doubt it. We're talking about cold hard cash Lieven, we're talking about opportunities, we're talking about advancing your career, not saving the planet. Although that's nice to think about when you do it. Get off my lawn Sowash. Lieven: Young punk, but I think Gen Z might be the biggest population if you look at it from a global perspective. But in the West, it's definitely a small one if you compare it to the baby boomers, Gen Z, is actually it's pretty small. And I really still feel GoodJobs is a terrible name because then someone launches BetterJobs and you're totally fucked IN GoodJobs. So you never should call yourself good. Chad: And again, taking a look at Gen Z as a target market in Germany alone, you're looking at less than 14% of the German population. That's 11.5-ish, 0.6 million people. Is that a large enough segment to actually make money off of? That's the question, right? And is it too broad and are they way too entry level at that point? Because yeah, you're not going to get a great job as an entry level. Lieven: Definitely not on GoodJobs. If you only got GoodJobs, you won't find a great job. No. Chad: Do the economics actually work behind this, which is what we talked about with Hatch. Lieven: 11, or how many people did you say? 11 million or something? Chad: 11.5 million. Yeah. Lieven: That's still a lot of people. If those becomes your candidates, your client, that's a lot of clients. So. Chad: If you get 'em all, yeah, if you get 'em all. Lieven: Even if you get a small percentage of them, it's still plenty. But questions are are those people, will they... The moment they graduate and the moment they enter the job market, will they still be interested in the social part of it? I'm not sure if I look at my students, they're all very Gen Z until they start looking for a job and then they want to have cash, definitely. Joel: And there's also a bigger picture. GoodJobs is a publication. They have other good stuff that they're growing. So they're trying to build this whole monolithic holistic thing, and jobs is... Chad: Ecosystem. Joel: Yeah, like jobs is a piece of it. So they don't need to have every Gen Z person using it to call it a success. But look, historically publications that try to be a lot of things to a lot of different people usually end up being nothing to no one. See ya! See you soon Lieven. See you soon. Lieven: See you soon, Dean. Joel: And we'll also be seeing... Chad: Going out on some Kebu. Lieven: That's right. Yes. Joel: That's right. Chill the dooble. Lieven: I love it. Joel: Fire up the red light district Lieven. We're coming to Europe. Another one in the can boys. We'll see you soon. We out. SFX: We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? A podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know, and yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. This is so weird. We out.

Live from TA Week in San Diego from the Qualifi booth, the boys chat with Brian Fink, a TA partner at McAfee, and discussed the recent changes to LinkedIn and the impact on sourcing and recruiting. The conversation also touched on the competition between LinkedIn and other platforms like Google, Bing, and X. Specifically, Fink details the recent changes to the way LinkedIn displays profiles, which can affect how recruiters find and engage with potential candidates. He also highlighted the importance of using different search engines like Google and Bing to find candidates and the potential benefits of each. The role of Microsoft in the competition between LinkedIn and other platforms was also discussed, with the potential impact on recruiters and job seekers being a key point of interest. The rise of alternative platforms like Polywork and the potential for new competitors to emerge in the recruiting space were also mentioned. Fink emphasized the importance of recruiters being adaptable and not relying solely on one platform like LinkedIn for sourcing candidates. He also stressed the need for recruiters to be creative and think outside the box when it comes to finding and engaging with candidates. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide, your kids lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It's Sean Carter's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Really? Joel: I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Scooby to my Shaggy, Chad Sowash is in the house. We're recording live from the Qualified Booth at TA week, and we have with us right now, Brian Fink, TA partner at McAfee, also experience at Twitter, Apple, and AWS. Chad: Never heard of him. Joel: And an author, so you're kind of a big deal Brian. Brian Fink: I'm not a big deal. Chad: He's a big deal. Whatever. Brian Fink: No, dude. I stand on the shoulders of great people like Steve Levy or Dean Da Costa, or Shelley Stockwell. Chad: I love it. Brian Fink: Maybe that's why I'm so fired up about what we're gonna talk about today, about what we're gonna get into, about what's transforming TA, what's keeping people awake. How are you guys going? What do you think the vibe is like on this floor here today? Chad: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Joel: Simmer down for a second. Some of our listeners don't know you. Brian Fink: Oh. Joel: Give them kind of the Twitter bio about what makes Brian Fink. Chad: Just in case. Just in case. Brian Fink: Okay. So in less than 500 characters, my name is Brian Fink. I'm a TA partner at McAfee Security. We help keep people safe online. I am passionate about finding ML, NLP, Machine Learning pros who want to keep the world safe and make it a better place. What that means to me as a recruiter is that I've gotta teach other recruiters the skills that I employ so that they can do the same or better at different organizations. Joel: So you're a giver. Brian Fink: I'm a giver. I'm not a taker. Chad: He is a giver. So much heart. So much heart. Joel: A sourcing Santa Claus, if you will. Brian Fink: I like to think of myself as a Hanukkah Harry, but it's okay. Little John Levitt's here for us. Joel: We don't discriminate. Chad: He's excited. I can't keep him off of this. Joel: He's unbound, unleashed. Chad: We've been talking about this crazy LinkedIn shit that's happening and... Brian Fink: What do you mean LinkedIn? People are going to it and they're finding candidates. That's what's going on? Chad: What? Oh, okay. No, that's not it. Brian Fink: Oh Okay. So crazy LinkedIn shit. Chad: Yes. Brian Fink: So I was talking to Joel and I was really pissed off. That's where I'm at, is that there are a lot of scare tactics that are going around right now because LinkedIn made a change to the code that appears on the page of a profile page. However, in this blow up that everybody is talking about, there's this confusion about whether or not you can x-ray which is site command colon linkedin.com to find candidates or not. I'm here to tell you it still works. If you want, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm more than happy to show you how this still works. Chad: And they call this operator, an x-ray? Brian Fink: Well, they call it the site command, but X-ray was a term that was coined by the people at AERS when AERS was rolling out the CDR. Chad: Oh wow. Back in the day. Brian Fink: The way back machine. Right? Chad: Oh, AERS. Brian Fink: So if you go site command colon linkedin.com/in, it will pull up profiles of individuals around the globe. Chad: Okay. Joel: These are queries in Google, correct? Brian Fink: Google and the bing.com. Joel: And Bing. Okay. Brian Fink: And DuckDuckGo. Chad: Oh, and the bing.com. Brian Fink: And ironically, we were surfing on this on Friday with Thomas, escaping last name. Joel: That's okay. Brian Fink: Runs a recruiter meetup for sourcing and recruiters that specialize in the GovCon space. Chad: Okay. Brian Fink: So he was running that on Friday and the question came up, dude, does this still work? And I was like, yeah, let me show you. And I showed them in Google, showed them in Bing. I showed them in DuckDuckGo. And I showed it in Yahoo 'cause like, I don't know why, but Yahoo was some suddenly relevant for the conversation. Chad: Again? Brian Fink: Yeah. The yahoo.com? Joel: Pretty sure Bing runs Yahoo now. So when you say Bing, you're kind of covering DuckDuckGo and Yahoo. Brian Fink: You are. But the thing is that with Bing, Bing displays the results from LinkedIn in a different capacity, Joel. Joel: Well, they own LinkedIn, so maybe... Brian Fink: Oh! Maybe that's why it hasn't... Joel: Maybe that's why it's... Yeah. Chad: That could be it. I don't know. Brian Fink: So all this talk about using Google exclusively has me worried because it brings back different results when you use different search engines. And shout out to my friend Ronnie Bracher, who showed that it shows different results when you use different browsers, right? Like if you use, if you index Google, or use Google or use being, on Safari or on Mozilla's, Firefox, that it shows different results, right? Chad: Okay. Brian Fink: Why it shows different results, I'm a recruiter, I'm not an engineering leader. I'm not the guy that tells you why or how it indexes. [laughter] What I am gonna tell you though is that those people who are out there that are interested in selling courses on how to use LinkedIn, they are telling people that X-ray doesn't work. Okay? I'm here to tell you, I'm here to tell your listeners, I'll show your listeners that if you go and you go site command linkedin.com/in, space, "mark@gmail.com" that it's gonna pull back millions of Gmail addresses that are associated with LinkedIn profiles. Chad: And these are cached results. Brian Fink: Well, if it's cache results, that means that I've cached the entire internet on my MacBook or on my Dell Inspiron, right? Chad: No, I mean, 'cause you can actually search off of Google's cached results. They cache the information 'cause they index it. Brian Fink: Right. But more recent results will come up on Bing. So basically this is a Google cache issue with LinkedIn versus a Bing cache issue. Chad: Well, no, because it makes sense because Microsoft owns LinkedIn, right? So that ecosystem makes sense. This sounds almost like a squeeze, a Google squeeze to some extent. It almost sounds like we've uncovered, quote unquote "uncovered" a squeeze on Google because they've got the cached information. But if they can't get to the newest information, then Bing wins. Brian Fink: Chad, that's a good point where I also think there's the squeeze, and there's a monopolistic... Okay. I'm not an attorney. I didn't play attorney last night. Chad: Yes he did. Brian Fink: But I didn't stay at La-Quinta. [laughter] Joel: He played Proctologist, but that's a different podcast. Chad: Carry on. Carry on, carry on. Brian Fink: All right. So what we're looking at is there a scare tactic or is there a reality being driven to companies like RecruitBot or hireEZ or SeekOut or HireFind or Apollo to say, well, they're a cheaper alternative, but the publicly available data is not going to be publicly available anymore. Joel: Here's the ace in the hole, sorry to go back to the Proctology reference. Brian Fink: No, it's okay. I thought it was a Tappy Gilmore thing. Joel: LinkedIn will not kill Google. LinkedIn will not stop being indexed by Google. They may give different data or less data or different specifics to Google. But whereas they're more than willing to turn off a company that's scraping their data and giving it back to people for a solution, they're happy to close them down. They're never going to close Google down. So what you're basically saying is the hack to sourcing now is what's the source that LinkedIn will never turn off? And it's Google and in Bing in this case. So that will always be something that you could use. Chad: But Bing could prospectively provide more data because they have access to more data, right? So therefore, yes, LinkedIn wants to be seen by Google from a marketing standpoint, right? But do you give your other property, Bing... Brian Fink: An advantage. Chad: An advantage. Right. Exactly. Brian Fink: So the other the other question I would ask, as long as we're about indexing, why does LinkedIn have a feature inside of creator mode where you can go in and you can SEO your page or you can SEO your articles or you can SEO your newsletter, if it doesn't want that information to be indexed? Chad: Well, they want it to be seen. But again, I think it's more access. So let's say, for instance, if I can get more rich data off of Bing than I do Google, that's entirely different. So you're looking at being able to get more, especially if you're a recruiter. Let's say, for instance, if I can get more rich data about Joel's profile out of Bing, I'm going to start fucking using Bing. I'm not going to use Google anymore. Brian Fink: So I would go back to it and say, why weren't you using Bing in the first place? Because Bing has, as long as we're picking on Joel is if I go into Bing and I index him or X-ray, his profile or profiles like his on Bing, it shows me how many connects he has and how many followers he has. That's information that's not made available on Google. That's why I always say Bing has always been a richer source of information. Now, I do wonder if some of these changes that are taking place to the profile are so Bing can index things better through its use of leveraging ChatGPT and Copilot which is certainly there. Joel: If I'm getting really in the weeds on this. Chad: And we are. Brian Fink: Pull out the weed whacker, we're mowing the field. Joel: Could the LinkedIn move be a move by Microsoft to hurt Google in some way? In other words, we're going to drive more people to Bing or Microsoft properties because the data is fresher. There's more thorough data. So why would you be using Google searcher when you get much more robust data through the Bing search engine? Am I thinking too deeply into that? Brian Fink: No, I don't think you're thinking too deeply. And I would insert one four letter word. It's not a dirty word. I know you were excited. Chad: Damn it. Brian Fink: I would insert a four letter word that people have... You guys were at HR Tech and Viva, Microsoft had a huge booth for Viva. Right? Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Brian Fink: And when we think about skills based hiring and we think of Viva, how do you connect all that information and make it part of the ecosystem? Because Viva is a big play, right? Organizations that are enterprise orgs that have O 365 and have O 365 enhanced by Copilot. They're going to want to be able to take advantage of that as whether or not you believe retention is the new recruiting or promote from within happens to be a paradox that we need to explore. What about Viva? What about the ecosystem? Yeah, we're deep in the weeds. We're playing buzzword bingo. I'm here with Chad and Joel and we're having a good time. Chad: I love it. Get your dauber out. Joel: Let me dig into potential competition. Now you served some time at Twitter. Brian Fink: I did, I did, I did. Joel: And currently known as X now. Brian Fink: Yes. Joel: And Elon is on the record of saying we're going to make a LinkedIn competitor. Brian Fink: A cooler. Joel: LinkedIn killer. They obviously have profiles. They have the ability to do it. They just launched jobs. Are you bullish or bearish on Twitter/X becoming a LinkedIn competitor or job destination? Brian Fink: So for white supremacists, I think it's going to be a great tool. I think that Mr. Levy is giving me the cut it out motion. No, do I think it's... I think there's a lot of data on Twitter, but I don't think it's going to become a LinkedIn competitor. That's like looking at a tool like Polywork. I was really big on Polywork. I thought Polywork was going to be a silent killer. Chad: Me too. Joel: I was not. Brian Fink: Well, then maybe you have something if you're betting the house on Mr. Musk. But I don't think that it's going to be the resource because brands have fled from Twitter or from X or whatever they're calling it and I don't see that you're going to have a company like Disney or a company like Apple that gonna go as hard in the paint as they've gone with building their brand reputation on for employer branding on a Glassdoor or on a LinkedIn. Chad: Wait a minute. This just in, Twitter just added email alerts to their jobs. Oh my God, it's still 1999. Joel: That's called innovation check. Chad: Fuck me, man. Yes. Brian Fink: I'll fax those tweets to you later. You believe LinkedIn. Joel: I believe LinkedIn's brand is so entrenched. I don't know if anyone can be a competitor. Certainly not a startup out of the ether like Polywork. Brian Fink: I'm going to give credit where credit's due. I was on a recruiter therapy session that was sponsored by hireEZ. And Steve Levy called LinkedIn, OxyContin, because so many recruiters are addicted to doing the easy work that comes along with LinkedIn. Chad: Yeah. Brian Fink: Even though LinkedIn has all these members that are on it, I would argue that of the crowd that's here today at TA Week, we've got a great bisection of individuals that do health care recruiting. Are doctors answering LinkedIn messages? Chad: No. Brian Fink: No, they're not. Right? Are nurses on LinkedIn? No, they're on TikTok and Instagram. That's where you should go to find them. Alternatively, if you're looking for truck drivers and there is a group that's here that's from pilot centers and they market to them. Are they on LinkedIn? No. You've got to look at all these alternative resources and say, where is the best place for me to meet my candidate? Not for my candidate to meet me. Don't make the candidate come to you. Go to the candidate. Get engaged with them about their interests and speak to those. If they're active on TikTok, right, site command, tiktok.com, quotation marks "@gmail" neonatal nurse and look it up, and you'll find people that are passionate about saving babies. You're not gonna find that on LinkedIn. Chad: So are recruiters getting too lazy? Because they lean heavy on fucking LinkedIn, man. Brian Fink: I've argued that for a really long time. If you guys caught Michael Goldberg's session this morning, Michael talked about grit and resilience. I had a talk at SourceCon where I talked about curiosity, tenacity, where you have to go deep in the paint. I don't think, look, I'm gonna say something that pisses a lot of people off. I know there are a lot of recruiters that are outta work right now. We're outta work for a reason. I say we as a community is that we're out because we have a low bar to entry. People are using that low bar and they're activating LinkedIn, they now have messaging sequencing on LinkedIn. They're not doing the heavy lifting, they're not doing the pre-research. They're not going the distance to understand the business, the hiring manager, the need. They're not asking the five Y's. Joel: And what's gonna change that is, so let me give you my historical thesis here. Brian Fink: Go for it. Joel: In the mid-2000s there was a group of you, Shelley, Levy, that knew bullion strings, knew all the search engines, knew how to get the needle in the haystack because of what was in between their ears. A bevy of services launched to take out sort of the brain power into searching these profiles. Now that LinkedIn has inevitably become sort of the one stop shop, they've taken much of the competition out of the equation that the lazy recruiters, as you talk about, if they rely on LinkedIn, what's the breaking point before we go back to the future. And it's guys and gals like you that know how to really like get in the weeds on how to find people and not just leverage LinkedIn. Because I think there's gotta be a breaking point where we're just spending too much on LinkedIn to have lazy recruiters. We're gonna go to like real crackerjack recruiters, or do we still rely on LinkedIn? I guess I'm asking for your perspective on what's the breaking point to where we get off the Oxycontin. Brian Fink: Oxycontin. I don't know what the breaking point is. I look at all these different recruiters who find different ways to find candidates. Have you guys had Aaron Matthew on the show before? Chad: No. Joel: Nope. Brian Fink: Okay. Chad: Introduce us. Brian Fink: Yeah, I will be more than happy to. Aaron is at PayPal. Aaron's number one source of hire is Reddit. Chad: For the types of positions. Brian Fink: Well, she's doing executive search. Chad: Oh, okay. Brian Fink: So she's having conversations with people about what's important to them, she's finding their Reddit alias. She's connecting that to their email alias and she's driving that conversation. She's having a conversation like, she loves to talk about bad dad jokes to her candidates. Her and Goldberg have an ongoing battle about who has the worst bad dad jokes. Chad: Joel's gonna get into that one soon. Brian Fink: Okay. So you've got something to talk to Aaron about. But that's it, is making that connection. And I think that if recruiters are less transactional, which LinkedIn is a drug that helps them to be transactional, and they get more into the minutiae with their candidate, that they're gonna go deeper. Chad: Build relationships, people. Joel: My thoughts are you mentioned unemployed recruiters. My thesis is the recruiters that come back get employed as recruiters again, are gonna be like your friend Aaron who think outside the box who don't just log into LinkedIn for eight hours a day and can think outside of that. That's my own thesis. Would you agree or disagree? Brian Fink: I agree with your thesis. Joel: Okay. Chad: So what about the platforms though? Because now we have a bunch of platforms that are leaning heavily. They say that's not the only place that they go to actually source candidates. Yeah. But when they get cut off, what happens to them? You got some power search tools that are out there. Joel: They pivot. Chad: They do search, they perform search so much better than anything that LinkedIn could do. But if LinkedIn cuts them off, what happens? Brian Fink: Well, I think that's a question that... Joel: Ask HiringSolved what happens? They go out of business. Brian Fink: I was just about to say, I was thinking of HiringSolved, I was thinking about chronologically if you don't know what's next and you don't look around the corners, you're gonna be left with nothing to go on, right? I don't know per se what is going to happen to the hireEZs or to the SeekOuts or the RecruitBots of the world. I want to think that they're led by intelligent individuals like Anoop or Steven or Jeremy. And that they're aware of the changes to the profile, and that they're sitting down. I'd like to encourage them to actually work together to figure out. Joel: That's cute. Brian Fink: No, I mean... Let's do that, right? Chad: Yeah. Brian Fink: Let's have a conversation. Chad: Well, I mean, at this point they have a common enemy, so they should be fucking working together. Brian Fink: They have a common monopoly, right? And how do they overcome that monopoly? Chad: Yes. Brian Fink: It's a good question. I don't have an answer for that. Build a Google custom search engine. See how it works. See how it breaks, learn from it. Iterate, AB test. That's what I would do. Joel: Advice to a young recruiter would be what? Brian Fink: Stay out of the business. Get out of my way. Joel: And that is Brian Fink, everybody. Chad: Yes. Joel: He's the TA partner at McAfee. Brian, for our listeners who want to connect with you, where would you send them? Brian Fink: I would send them to the linkedin.com. If you type in Brian Fink, I'm the SEO to come up first. Or if you wanna get a little bit more personal, maybe you're gonna check me out @thebrianfink77 on Instagram. Chad: Oh. Brian Fink: Yeah. Chad: I like that. Brian Fink: Yeah. So we might go that route. Joel: Love it. Thank you Brian. That is another one in the can live from TA week at the Qualified Booth. Chad, we out. Chad: We out. Brian Fink: Are you listening? Whoa... Outro: Thank you for listening to what's it called? The Podcast, The Chad, The Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, Blue nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

It was another wild week in the world of work. The boys cover a wide range of topics. Here's a breakdown of some of the highlights: PageUp: U.S. tech investor Battery Ventures is looking to cash out of talent management platform PageUp, which it funded in 2018. Despite efforts to expand globally and through acquisitions, PageUp struggled to gain traction in the U.S. market. HireRight: Investment funds affiliated with General Atlantic and Stone Point Capital are acquiring background check solution HireRight for approximately $1.65 billion. The sale suggests a smart move to sell while the stock is high. Beamery: Beamery's CTO and co-founder Michael Patterson has exited the company, amid rumors of acquisition by Workday. However, Workday may wait to acquire Beamery at a lower price, as Beamery has faced layoffs and client loss. The Hatch: Australian startup The Hatch has raised approximately $4.6 million to create a job platform targeting Gen Z professionals, aiming to disrupt traditional job boards by using AI to match users with jobs based on their values and skills. In addition, Chad and Joel discuss various topics related to current events and news, including the National Labor Relations Board's disputes with Amazon, SpaceX, and Trader Joe's, LinkedIn's legal troubles, North Korean hackers using AI for phishing scams, and more. Join us for a lively discussion on labor rights, privacy, and corporate ethics! TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh. Yeah. Two guys who have never taken and will never take a cognitive test. What's up, kids? You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel person woman man Camera TV Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad sorry I'm late Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, LinkedIn feels violated a Gen Z job board hatches and page up hose down. Let's do this. What's up, man? How's the shoulder? How's the wing? How's the wing treating you? Chad: Had physical therapy for the first time this morning. All is well in the, you know, in the Sowash hood. I'm just getting used to not being able to use my dominant right arm. Number one. And sleeping is really the biggest bitch because I've gotta wear this thing. I can only sleep in one position. [laughter] Chad: And when you get into like, you know, six to eight hours, you know, you start to get sore when you can't move. So, I'm not sleeping a good eight hours. Joel: Is the one position on your back. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I've gotta wear my sling. Joel: To the back. To the back. Chad: Not the best. [laughter] Joel: So this... Chad: It works. Joel: So this is wild. So last, last week here in central Indiana, we got a little bit of snow. Chad: We did. Joel: We had the Allstar game. If you're an NBA fan. So it was kind of a busy week here. Chad: How much did you guys get? How much snow? We got about six inches. Joel: Yeah. I'm gonna say four to five. Yeah. Easily. So I go, I go to my local Kroger. I know that's your favorite store to get your products. And I'm pulling in and it's packed. And I'm thinking, oh, did I miss the apocalypse announcement? Did I mi... Like, we're gonna get a few inches of snow. This is not that bad. So I'm walking in. And there's this huge line of people, and at the end of the line is 50 Cent. 50 Cent... Chad: Oh my God. Joel: Was at my local Kroger signing bottles of... Chad: Was he on stage? Was he rapping? What was going on? Joel: No rapping. He was signing bottles of cognac. Apparently has launched a 50 Cent brand of cognac. So he was there signing bottles. Of course. It's a great trick to say, you have to buy the bottle. If I'm gonna sign it. These are probably a lot of people who hate cognac or have never had it. I personally am against the whole celebrity booze trend. I don't know how you feel about it. I know you love Ryan Reynolds. He's got a gin. Chad: Why are you against it? Joel: I just think it cheapens the whole history of the booze, man. Chad: You're turning more into a socialist day by day. Joel: Every liquor is rooted, is rooted in, you know, history. [laughter] Joel: And old people that made this stuff. And then some celebrity. It's not like 50 Cent has a distillery in his mansion, you know, brewing this stuff. He private labels it from whoever's making it. And then they try to sell it. I don't, I just, I don't buy it. If you do, that's all good. Chad: I'm not a cognac guy. Aviation gin, definitely have some of that downstairs. I mean, gin is gin. Give me a break. There's some really good gin. Joel: You and I could make some gin. Chad: Really good gin in... Joel: Chad and Cheese gin. [laughter] Chad: In Europe though. Really good gin. I think they're the storied pasts. Those are the ones who actually get more, they get more dollar value outta them. Take a look at like, some of the Snoop Dogg wines. I mean, they're going for like 14.99 or something like that. [chuckle] Joel: Martha Stewart. P Diddy. I just, I just, I can't get into it. Chad: Well, and again, it's interesting 'cause here in the US we productize the shit outta everything. Joel: Hey, I'm all for the abundance of American consumerism. I just don't like a celebrity, you know pouring in my drinks. All right. Enough of that talk. Let's get to shoutouts. My first one goes to our friends at Fama. Of course, you know, Fama is run by our friend Ben Mones. That's right. Ben Mones. So they have, if you don't know what they do for our listeners, they track Twitter, social media. So if your new hire is spouting off about Nazism or, you know, like racism, et cetera, they'll give you a heads up that, Hey, here's a red flag about this new candidate. Well, they just announced that they can now monitor TikTok videos, which I think is huge. If they can pull that off. Because I think that the Glassdoor write a three-paragraph review of the company that I work for is like, so... Chad: That shit's dead. That shit's dead. Joel: So old people shit. And... [laughter] Chad: It's Reader's Digest worthy. Joel: Video is how people are, are doing it. They're not doing it anonymously. They don't give a shit. Like they're gonna, they're gonna talk shit about your company, their boss. And if I were recruit holdings, I would back up the truck to call Ben, write a check, and put this into Glassdoor. And Indeed, because the reviews that are going on those sites and text are going down. So they need to be able to track all this video stuff outside of the text world and put that on for employers to watch. So I think personally, this is a huge innovation at Fama, way beyond text on Twitter. That stuff's easy. This stuff is hard if they can pull it off. So big shout out to our friends at Fama. [applause] Chad: I think that's how you take some of these old crotchety background check companies and you make them worthwhile. Joel: That's another one. Yeah. Chad: You absorb a Fama and then you start to do those types of things. Yeah. I think Fama has a great exit opportunities all over the place. Joel: Yeah. Checker startling. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Well, my shoutout is more around a market watch. Let's just call it that. What are you streaming these days? Are you guys watching anything? Netflix, anything like that? Joel: Sure. Better Call Saul is a big one. Streaming The Masters of the Skies or the Air? It's on Apple. It's World War II B17s flying. Yeah. The whole campaign there. For sure. Yeah. Streaming all the time. I'm mad that I can't get Six Nations easily. And we got some big matches coming up in rugby that our friend Adam has... [laughter] Joel: I can't get, I gotta get Peacock or Paramount or some shit. Like it's too much. It's too much. So like... Chad: It's too much. It is just too much. Joel: Back to your point of what am I streaming? Chad: So, I mean, we, we actually just finished up on Brothers Sun on Netflix, which is great. So check that out. But what I wanted to be able to fade into here is the streaming market. And Walmart acquires these, the smart TV company, Vizio for $2.3 billion. So I haven't personally been in a Walmart for about two to three years. Might even be four. I do remember that Vizios were very prominence in the TV section, and I thought Walmart owned them already. But the question is, how does Walmart's purchase possibly outflank the Apple TVs, Amazon, Fire Roku, and Chromecast? I mean, you take a page out of Apple's playbook, you become the OS you know, the operating system, the rails to how people actually stream. And if you've bought a TV over the past few years, you've probably purchased a smart TV, which is connected to the WiFi, has preloaded apps in an app store which means I don't need to purchase a separate Roku or Chromecast. Chad: I mean, that's really where where we're moving. Now, if you don't need to buy a streaming stick boxes or whatever the hell they come out with, will Walmart then charge a vig on purchases made through the Vizio TV? You in a movie through the Amazon app? Does Walmart get a cut? Very Apple-esque. So then there's the advertising network aspect of it, which is very large. So as the US market continues to consolidate and we have less and less choice of places to spend our dollar, as we've seen a lot of these organizations, Disney plus consolidation, pulling content off, HBO Max doing the exact same types of things. What happens when Walmart has a acquisition and a play like this in this space? I think it's pretty big. Joel: Yeah. That's pretty interesting. You know, the phone screen is that that's played, the iPad or tablet that's played? The TV and I guess maybe the car. I mean, the Internet of things really isn't happening. My refrigerator isn't a TV yet. So it is kind of open field to make a really big move. I think that Amazon recently allows you to have multiple services. So it's like one login, and then you can get Access Hulu or Netflix or all the different ones you have. So they're trying to have like, be a platform for all the streaming services. So I could definitely see a day where you buy Visio TV you give it your username for all these streaming services, and you just turn on the TV and it's all there already logged in. And then, of course, you mentioned the shopping thing. Hey, you like, you know, you like Ted Lassos, Nike's or Nike's maybe bad. [laughter] Joel: Does Walmart sell Nike's? I have no idea. But they could have something where like, Hey if you like, so and so's outfit, you know, we have it on sale, click here. And then you got your credit card in there. Chad: Then they deliver it to you. [laughter] Joel: Deliver it to you, in an Amazon van. I don't know. But that's, yeah. That's pretty interesting. Chad: A Walmart van. Joel: Good for Mo, because no one's buying the Walmart phone. I can tell you that. No one's buying. Chad: No. It and I mean, they're just trying to, they're trying to outflank each other. And while that's happening, a lot of these smaller, very innovative companies are, are getting either acquired or crushed. And again, that's what I'm talking about. Our choices here in the US are going down, down, down. These big companies are buying all of those brands. And either putting them under their umbrella or they're just absorbing them entirely. So this is definitely a space to watch. I think. Joel: Chad's new favorite store. Oops. Winning Walmart. Well, no word if only fans is gonna be on these Walmart TVs of the future, Chad, but probably you're probably familiar with Alex Navalny in Russia. Putin's... Chad: Rest in peace. Yes. Joel: Putin's doghouse for sure is one dog, lighter this week, however, there's a new Public enemy, number one in Russia. Her name is Lolita Bog Nova. Chad: Is that her real name? Joel: That's a horrible, sexy name if that is her sexy name. [laughter] Joel: She is an OnlyFans model. And two years ago she posted some pics in front of Saint Basil's Cathedral Church, which is one of the real popular, like, has those Russian top, you know, little bubble things. That you've seen online. Anyway, she... Chad: Cool architecture. Joel: Posted topless, put these things online. And two years, two, three years later, Putin is fit to be tied. Apparently, she is Public Enemy number one. She's hiding out in the US somewhere. Unlike Navalny. I don't think she's gonna go back to Russia and Face the Gulag. Uh, but, uh, for now, she's safe and happy in the us but she better watch out 'cause Putin has a way of finding you and making you pay. No word on whether or not he's subscribed to her OnlyFans channel. But I wouldn't be too surprised. Chad: Probably mad that he didn't get free access and, or this is literally just something that she made up so that she can get a story out there, which is, you know... Joel: They have pictures online, it's pixeled out for the kid-friendly websites that... Chad: I'm not saying that the pictures don't exist. [laughter] Chad: I don't say that the pictures don't exist. I'm just saying the story around the pictures. I don't know. But you know what Lolita can do? She can enjoy free stuff of Chad and Cheese. She can go to chadcheese.com/free where she could possibly have, oh, I don't know, craft beer delivered to her front door from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. Whiskey. That's two bottles of whiskey from Joel and myself, from Text Colonel, our friends over there, the AI matching machines. T-shirts from who? Who, who, Joel. Joel: We, we have a new T-shirt sponsor. Chad. We're very excited. They almost tripped over themselves to sign up... [laughter] Joel: To be the sponsor of let's be honest. Chad: I'm always there. Joel: Let's be honest. The industry's most popular t-shirt, the most popular, comfortable, cool t-shirt. Sexy is from the Chad and Cheese podcast. So we have a new design in process. We're hoping to have these for a futures conference coming up soon. But our friends, ERIN, to learn more about these guys, they do, employee referrals, just go to ERIN, that's erinapp.com and we're real excited to have them on board. Is this year's T-shirt sponsor? Chad: Yep. New designs. Looking good. Joel: Almost as happy as the birthday. The birthday folks. [laughter] SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know. I can feel it. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: That's right. Chad, I don't know if you mentioned it or if you've heard, but Plum, the folks at Plum are sponsoring a bottle of rum for one lucky winner who's celebrating. Chad: Oh, I've a birthday. I've heard. Joel: Celebrating another trip around the sun are Chad and she's listeners, Ryan Fillman. Maria and Nia. Ross Granger, Sarah Mara, Rebecca Horn, Mike Wiston, and your homeboy. Ethan Bloomfield are all celebrating. Another trip around the sun. Happy birthday everybody. Chad: Excellent. Well, and hopefully we can see some of those people when we're doing Guess what, events, kids events. That's right. We're gonna be at Transform March 11th through 14th, where we're gonna be at The Win in Vegas. Over 3000 attendees. A hundred plus investors, hundreds of startups. Shit tons of speakers. And it's gonna be a good time. We're going to give away five free tickets. Five free tickets, winnings. That's right. Just go to Chadcheese.com. In the header you'll see, just click on win free tickets. I tried to make it easy for you. Win free tickets. What you're gonna do is you're gonna register for free stuff. That's right. All the stuff we talked about before. The possibility of winning free beer, whiskey, t-shirts, maybe even on your birthday, getting run from Plum. Also, you might get an opportunity to win a free ticket into Transform. So check that out. Then play the Ki Boo. Oh yeah. [laughter] Chad: You know what that means, right? That means we are going to Amsterdam. That's right. When we dance. [laughter] Chad: We're gonna, we're gonna hop on a plane to Amsterdam. That was the official ere recruitment Congress KBU playlist or at least the start of the KBU playlist. March 19th. It's the ERE Recruitment Congress where the knowledge will be flowing, the beer will be flowing and hopefully leaving brings enough beer for everybody because I'm gonna tell you right now, we're gonna get ours. Okay. Uh, it's gonna be a full day in Amsterdam dedicated to filling your brain with all the good stuff from this industry, uh, all around the AI shift and recruitment and technology. Uh, and we also have a special discount that you can find. Listen up kids chadcheese.com. Click on the events link in the upper right-hand corner, or just go to chadcheese.com/events. We had to wrestle that discount code away from leaving. [laughter] Joel: We made him drink a six-pack of Heineken or threaten him with a six-pack of Heineken. [laughter] Joel: Or else we were gonna, we're gonna really go. [laughter] Joel: Can't wait to get back to Europe. Alright, well, before we get to some news, Chad, we've got layoff news. Oy, oy, oy. All right. The year of Efficiency marches on Chad, Nike. Nike. CEO John Donahoe took responsibility for the company's recent underperformance and announced layoffs of more than 1500 employees. To "Reignite growth" the decision reflects broader trends of companies, including Google and meta-cutting staff to enhance efficiency and address changing consumer behaviors. The stock was down on the news. Chad, your take. Chad: So I ultimately hold myself and my leadership accountable. Said John Donahoe from the CEO of of Nike. How did you hold yourself responsible? SFX: You lying lies lies. Chad: Yahoo. Finance reports. John has a market capitalization of $153 billion with the B Kids. A total annual CEO comp was reported at 33 million for last year, the year 2023. That's an increase of 14% over the year before a failure receives 14%. It took wage earners in the US 40-plus years just to hit that mark in wage increases. Took 40 years. This motherfucker did it while he was failing in one year. ZipRecruiter reports the median income of Nike employees is 56,000, which means the CEO, good old John, the failure, is paid nearly 600 times that of a Nike commoner. So that doesn't include the comp for the rest of the failed Nike leadership team. So blowing these employees off will not reignite growth. Firing yourself would provide an opportunity to get a leader in the seat who's not a pure fucking failure. [laughter] Chad: Fire two others from the leadership team and allow all of those 1500 workers to keep their damn jobs. This is the problem with the whole structure that we're in. These motherfuckers are getting paid 600 times. Some even more than the people who are actually doing the work. They look at themselves and say, "Yeah. No. I failed on this one, but I'm going to gonna cut 1500 heads." No. Fuck you. You should be out the door. This is not the way that business should work. Joel: How the hell does... How the hell is Nike not one of the most profitable companies in the wor... All I see is fucking Nike's on people from the kids to the old folks to me. Anyway, that's an aside. What I found interesting was that the stock didn't move much. I assumed with Meta doing what it did in Google, I thought firing some people would really ignite the stock. Chad: You're talking tech versus material goods. Joel: Yeah. So, so the question is, is tech the only segment that can say year of efficiency and actually get rewarded for it on Wall Street? I guess time will tell, but that surprised me. I thought there would be a domino effect of companies talking about efficiency and layoffs, and that's... And that Wall Street would go nuts unless every penny in Wall Street is going to NVIDIA, which would not surprise me at the moment... [laughter] Joel: This was kind of shocking. Yeah. NVIDIA's like Barbie for dudes. It's just... It's like... Chad: Oh, dude. Don't... I'm going to gonna tell you, and again, this is the... This is not me, this is all in my opinion. I have put some cash. Actually, Julie, we've put some cash into some NVIDIA over the last months. I mean, just watching what's happening and you know they are actually gauging demand. They know what demand is, and they're not producing to demand. They are not. They never have and they never will. Joel: We have some hidden audio from the headquarters at NVIDIA. SFX: SFX. Joel: Things are good at NVIDIA, to say the least. Chad: Super yachts and hoes. Yeah. SFX: SFX. Joel: All right, Chad. Here's a roundup of some interesting news that our listeners might enjoy. Financial review is reporting US Tech investor Battery Ventures is ready to cash out of talent management platform, PageUp, after writing a check in 2018 for an undisclosed amount. Launched way back in the 90s, PageUp is headquartered in Melbourne, but the service... But they service 190 countries. Want some more fire of-sale goodness, background check solution, HireRight is being acquired by investment funds affiliated with General Atlantic and Stone Point Capital for approximately $1.65 billion. The transaction is expected to close later this year, but wait, Chad. There's more. Chad: Oh God. Joel: Sources, particularly sources that you are connected with are telling us that Beamery, CTO, and Co-founder Michael Paterson are out and that they're primed to be acquired by Workday. Chad, everything must go. What are your thoughts? [chuckle] Chad: Let's take this one by one. PageUp. So, how do you say fire sale without saying fire sale? I think they did a really good... They had a good example there right now from the BV funding press release back in 2018. "PageUp will use some of the new funding to increase its already significant focus on product research and development. In addition, PageUp plans to continue its global expansion and may seek acquisitions to offer more products to more customers in the complimentary markets." So, we did see some acquisitions clinch, eArcu, and Path Motion. Those really didn't move the dial much. I know that they were trying to get into some of those markets. The UK markets mainly. Path Motion was a French company. It's interesting that these organizations like PageUp only took $10 million prior to this undisclosed major funding events. Why did they do that? Right? They've been around for a very long time. Were they looking to try to gain explosive growth? They might have. The problem is, if you remember, I know we talked about this, PageUp was trying to target the US. Right? An Australian company trying to target the US. Not easy. Joel: Only Outback Steakhouse has accomplished such a feat. Chad: Yeah. If you've got a blooming onion, you might be good. If you don't, you're probably fucked. They went to the UK and they did some acquisitions in the UK, which helped them, I think, from a portfolio standpoint, but it didn't really launch them like I think they thought they would be in Europe. They really had no chance in the US unless they bought something. So this doesn't surprise me, and we've been talking about this for months now. We're going to see a lot of this happening. Joel: Yeah. If Crocodile Dundee is still around, he's kicking somebody in the ass because this was a lot... Old company in internet terms. It was a company that had three, 400 employees. The average tenure is 3.7 years, which is a long time in our world. So by all accounts, you had a long-term company that had happy employees. I hear everyone's happy in Australia, but maybe that's an outlier. So 2018, we had a lot of money going into the ATS space. ICIMS was getting money, Greenhouse, SmartRecruiters, like you can go back in our archives and this was a time when a lot of money was going into these platforms. PageUp clearly said, "Oh shit. If we're going to compete, we gotta go get some money. Call up Battery Ventures in the US. Everyone... The US has the money. So, let's get some cash." Joel: This is 2018. 2024, if my math is correct, that puts us into year seven of this relationship. And clearly, things aren't going the way that Battery Ventures had hoped that they would. Queue the SmartRecruiters news from last week of a failed deal that didn't go go through. We'll talk about some other things as well. I'm sure you'll talk about Beamery. And so anyway, we you have an environment where a lot of money went in, people took that money six, seven years, henceforth, it didn't turn out. All these venture capitalists want their cash, and now it's time to pay the piper. PageUp ran out of time, they made a stupid decision when everyone was making stupid decisions and now it's time to say, either acquisition or maybe private equity comes in and chops it up. All that career builder style. But by all accounts, this was a kind of cool, happy, long-term company and bye-bye. Will it be a boomerang? I doubt it. PageUp. Chad: No. I don't think it would. Joel: Page down PageDown more like it. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? SFX: SFX. Chad: HireRight. So they raised 422.2 million. A little bit more than PageUp did. Jesus. Their net worth to date is about 960 million as of... That was February 20th. So this is the highest the stock has been in the last two years. So it's probably smart they sell as soon as humanly possible. With sales seems smart. But what about the buy in this case? What do you think? Was this a smart buy? Joel: I don't know enough about it to say if it was smart or not. I've been on record many times saying that the background check industry sucks. Chad: It's boring. I've... Yeah. Joel: It's awful. I mean, HireRight ball accounts is the number two player. Stocks hit a low about a year ago. Sterling for sure has been on an upswing since then. I think the year of efficiency, they've been very efficient in what they've done. The market cap on HireRight is $950 million. So they paid one and a half or so for that company. So, I mean, it's a good company. It's got customers that aren't leaving. Look, when you... It's like an ATS. When you select a background check provider, you stick with that provider. 'Cause it's not like there's much difference in any of them. So they have a client base that's probably not going anywhere, you're not going to gonna get a 10x return on this. So take it private, get out from under the Wall Street criticism, and it's probably a fine deal for a private equity or company that bought this deal. But the background check business sucks. I mean, they're going to gonna chop this thing up. They're going to gonna fire people. They're going to milk as much profit out of this as possible. So if you work at HireRight man, woo. Time to update that LinkedIn profile for sure. Chad: Not going to gonna be fun, kids. It's not going to gonna be fun and not... Another place where it's not going to gonna be fun. Where there is smoke, there is fire. And when there is fire, in this case, there is fire. What do I mean by that? Beamery CTO/co-founder, Michael Paterson, exited stage left earlier this year. Prior to that, in January of last year, 2023, Beamery laid off 11% and then ended the year with a 25% layoff in November. My sources say Beamery is doing their damnedest to get acquired by Workday. That's the rumor. So if the rumor is true, I would expect Workday to wait Beamery out to get more of a fire sale price. I do know that... I believe Workday does have money in there, but it's still... It's going to gonna be... It's pretty much paying yourself. So try to get that price down. And I would strongly suggest, this is just my personal opinion. Strongly suggest that any company dropping an RFP anytime soon should not include PageUp or Beamery. Okay? That's just my opinion. But turbulent vendors are not where... I would not personally spend my budget kids. Okay? And this is just end from an anonymous source out of Scotland. [chuckle] Chad: Anonymous. Quote... SFX: SFX. Chad: "Beamery was never more than Avature with a shinier pitch deck." SFX: SFX. Joel: Dude, I'm on record as Beamery is a shit show. You talked about the money that came in. Like from... It's... Yeah. I got nothing but just like... SFX: SFX. Joel: How bad the situation is. So Workday is interesting. I don't that... You're right. I think they were in on the series C. We don't know exactly how much publicly that they put in. But these were big rounds that Beamery was... Beamery was a unicorn. It ain't anymore, that's for sure [chuckle] Chad: No. Joel: Chance. So that means, most of the employees stock options are for shit. This company, from what I understand, is bleeding. Clients can't get new clients. It's just a bad scene. If Workday could buy it on the cheap, the TJ Clearance sale rack and save face... [laughter] Joel: And there may be a situation where all the other investors are like, "Come on Workday, do us a solid. Exit these guys so we can, with our dignity, get out as well." But if Workday comes in, the Beamery brand is done, everyone that works there is probably done until they segment into all the clients that are Beamery into Workday. If they're not already, they'll take some of the tech, I'm assuming. But this has all the writings of dead on arrival for Beamery. And it's just bad news. Couple other thoughts on the background check thing. Sorry. We kind of jumped around there, but... Chad: Circle. Circle. Go ahead. Joel: Checker is interesting. Checker took a ton of money. At one point in, 2019, they were valued at $4.6 billion. Nowhere near the market share of like Sterling or HireRight. And HireRight just sold for a billion and a half. So think about... Talk about bad situations. Checker is a bad situation in terms of stock options. I mean, there's no way that Checker is in that $4.6 billion universe. And by the way, Sterling, who's the biggest 800-pound gorilla in the background check business is now at a $2.5 billion market cap. So, it's not unrealistic to think that Checker has gone from four plus billion to Yeah, well under a billion in valuation. So talk about bad situations. I wanted to highlight that as well. I think Checker's in a bad spot for sure. Chad: Whew. Well, let's get into some small startups as opposed to these unicorns. These dying unicorns. Joel: Let's move away from this madness. SFX: SFX. Joel: Someone may have been bitten by a venomous insect in Australia. Australia's Hatch has raised roughly $4.6 million US dollars. Self-described as "SEEK." If you don't know what seek is, American listeners, it's sort of the equivalent of Monster in Australia anyway. SEEK for Gen Z. That's right. The platform uses AI to match Gen Z professionals with jobs based on their values and skills aiming to disrupt traditional job boards. Of course, they are. Chad, what are your thoughts on yet another job board? Chad: This is very interesting. Not just the job board aspect of it, but Australia's population is smaller than California or Canada. So around 26 million. And then they're taking that size down dramatically by targeting Gen Z, which makes their market... Their user market roughly 4.7 million at best, right? SFX: SFX. Chad: So I love me a focused company, but here's where they're going to be spending that money. Number one, product enhancements, including AI matching technology. Never heard that before. Have you? User growth, geographic growth expanding nationwide over two-year period before becoming a global platform. They're not even national yet. And then growing the Hatch team with ML and AI. So in Australia, competitors are SEEK, Indeed, and the National Workforce Australia site, right? So now, your competition are big names, although they're not excessive, and they're not going to gonna create an entirely new user experience for all job seekers across Australia instead of just target Gen Z. Chad: So my personal opinion, Hatch doesn't understand the basic math as they're too narrowly focused on a small 4.7 million cohort of possible Gen Zs. Could the same strategy fly in the US where Gen Z represents 68.6 million people in our population over twice that the entire population of Australia? Yes. It's a numbers game, kids. I don't think these guys understand numbers. My advice to them, find an MVP, sell the MVP in markets that you've already penetrated, drive revenue. That's the big key. This is the time for slow and smart growth. Plus, everybody needs a damn job. So yes. You can have those areas on the site for Gen Z, but go general. You don't have a large enough population to play this incredibly super niche game. I like the idea, but from a mass standpoint, it doesn't work. SFX: SFX. Joel: I'm glad you took it into the cerebral realm of math 'cause I'm going to gonna take it somewhere else. Seriously. Somebody smoking some poisonous frog juju. Look, history is riddled with targeting younger consumers with a cooler hip product that isn't your father's and your mother's. It works. It works. [chuckle] Chad: This isn't your mother's job board. Joel: When it works, it works. Okay? Ford released the Mustang. It's like, this ain't your daddy Studebaker. It's not the Model T. This is the car for the new generation. That works. It usually does not. I'll bring up the Cola Wars. You might remember Virgin Cola, you might remember Jolt Cola from the 80s. You probably remember... Chad: God. That was horrible. Joel: Pepsi's the choice of a new generation. Okay? All the cool kids are drinking Pepsi, right? It's all... Hopefully, it'll... It's supposed to make you look cool, make you more accessible to sexual partners like... [laughter] Joel: Sometimes it works. It doesn't. Now to think that it's going to work in the job search arena, give me a break, man. I mean, it's not your daddy's job board. That just doesn't really play to anybody. And these guys are putting like holistic job board, full self connect... They're using words that are so snowflakey. Sorry to try to... Sorry to get anti-woke on you, but it's so snowflakey. It's just, it's so bad. It's like Handshake and Polywork saying, "We're not LinkedIn, we're for the cool kids. We're the cool LinkedIn." So these are going to gonna be the cool job board, right? We're not SEEK, we're not those old fogies that listen to NXS albums from the 80s, right? I just... I think it's... You know I'm not big on job boards anyway. To launch a job board and say we're not your daddy's job board, basically, I think is a failed venture. It reminds me a lot of ADA. You remember ADA from about a year ago? You... Chad: Yahoo literally just got bought. Joel: Okay. Paul Forster invested in that and it was sort of the same thing. Like, we're different than Indeed, or we're different than these guys. What happened to Ada? They kind of like snuck away... Chad: The best thing ADA did was their advertising. That was the best thing they did. [chuckle] Joel: Which I don't even remember. It was so good I don't even know what the hell it is. [chuckle] Joel: So they kind sold in the dead of night. There wasn't even a press release, I don't think. It's like somebody found out about from some public announcement that they had been acquired by somebody. So, that's where... Chad: Yeah. UK. Joel: Hatch is going. Hatch needs to go back in the egg, go back in the uterus, and go home. 'Cause this is just not going to gonna work out well. Chad: You've been hatched. Joel: I love Australia, I love the spirit and it... The thought behind this, but yeah. This is... This is like... SFX: SFX. Joel: Beamery or any of the other crash lands that we've talked about. Oh my God. I'm... Chad: I need a break. Joel: I'm worked up. Chad, let's take a quick break. SFX: SFX. Joel: I had to have a cold fosters to chill me out there. I need... [laughter] Joel: I needed some Alice Springs. Chad: A whole oil can by yourself. Joel: Alice Spring chicken to make me feel better about myself. Chad: The bloomin onion with some Alice Springs chicken. Joel: Oh. All right, Chad. Well, no show would be complete without talk of Elon, SpaceX, Tesla, or all of the above. Chad: Oh. That's fun. Joel: So in the news this week, Amazon, SpaceX, and Trader Joe's, one of these things is not like the other, are challenging the constitutionality of the National Labor Relations Board or what the kids call the NLRB in, and disputes related to workers' rights and organizing. Amazon argues the NLRB structure violates the separation of powers and denies due process, echoing similar claims by SpaceX and Trader Joe's. Chad, your thoughts on the latest from the NLRB attack? Chad: Whew. So the National Labor Relations Board is an independent federal agency with the power to safeguard employees rights to organize and to determine whether to have unions as their bargaining representative. The agency also acts to prevent and remedy unfair labor practices committed by private sector employees and employers and union. Unfair labor practices like, I don't know employees having to piss on Amazon warehouse garbage cans, unfair labor practices like allowing children to work on construction sites, slaughter houses, and eight to 10 hours jobs instead of going to school, I mean, Amazon alone has faced over 250 complaints alleging unlawful practices. Musk's SpaceX is under fire from the NLRB for retaliating, it's not a good thing to retaliate, against eight engineers who criticize Musk in a letter to the company executives. So Seth Goldstein, who's actually an attorney who represents both Amazon labor union and the labor group, Trader Joe's United, Stated quote, since they can't defeat successful union organizers, they now want to just destroy the whole process. Goldstein also said that pending cases could emboldened other employers, to refuse to bargain with unions on the behalf of the courts. We're in an age of chaos right now, these companies are looking to try to break the system, they want this to go up to the Supreme Court in the hopes that they do the Roe versus Wade dance, and they just, they kill this too. SFX: Another one. Joel: Yeah. You took the words out of my mouth. For the most part, I think there's blood in the water and the sharks are circling, people see this as an opportunity to take a conservative leaning, heavily leaning Supreme Court and basically up turn a lot of things that have been the law of the land in this case, since the '30s and destroy it, and you mentioned Roe vs Wade affirmative action which... A couple of interviews we did this week, I don't think we appreciate the impact that it's had on companies demeanors in terms of DEI. So now it's like if we can overturn Roe in affirmative action, this should be a piece of cake. So let's get the Supreme Court one on this, let's hear this case in the Supreme Court, which is something that would have been unbelievable 10 years ago, five years ago, now is reality like this organization that you so eloquently put in terms of protecting workers that don't have unions to sort of protect them, now that could be gone. Chad: And then also, I didn't mention this, but they're also looking for... I think Musk was talking about or Trader Joe's looking for a jury trial, fuck you. All you're trying to do is extend out how long this happens, and they know that the NLRB, like any organization within the government, only has so many individuals, so they can only take on so many the cases, so if they can extend out to the amount of time those individuals are taking then they cannot enforce the law, right, so they're literally just trying to fuck the system. Joel: Tell this Trader Joe's getting involved in this mix. That shocked me. Trader Joe's, the good folks at Trader Joe's, come on, man, that's a bummer, man. Chad: Now they're being aligned with Elon Musk and Amazon. Joel: That's a party, man. That's a party. All right, let's get on to LinkedIn. Chad: Yes. Joel: Well, they've had a pretty rough month Chad, I know you're sad about that. Anyway, North Korean hackers are using AI tools like chatGPT to conduct phishing scams on LinkedIn aiming to fund their nuclear weapons program, but wait Chad there's more. A new class action lawsuit against LinkedIn alleges the company unlawfully tracked its members activities on the California DMV website to obtain personal disability information, which was then used for undisclosed purposes. The plaintiff seeks to represent a California class and claims LinkedIn violated privacy laws, demanding damages and a jury trial. So Chad, from the DMZ to the DMV. What are your thoughts on LinkedIn? No, good bummer of a month. Chad: This is about as ballsy as it gets. I mean, not only are we gonna big brother the fuck out of you, but we're gonna thumb our nose at the government while we're doing it, where LinkedIn fucked up as they did this in California if this happened in Utah or Indiana or any of the other red states, they wouldn't give a shit. They wouldn't care about it. It would go off. It wouldn't matter. Right. Whatever, they were making money, right? They add to this advertising thing, we got a GDP. It's all about GDP. California is an entirely different animal. Joel: It's the Europe of America. Chad: Yeah, the only one that keeps most of us straight, so yeah, it's interesting, it will be interesting to see how this progresses and then who gets smacked around for this. LinkedIn again, really focusing heavy on trying to generate revenue apparently they went too far. I mean, apparently, they went too far. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Chad: When nobody's watching. Joel: So let's touch on this North Korea thing. This sounds like a Seth Rogen comedy. So North Korea is utilizing AI tools to look like recruiters to contact people on LinkedIn that I don't know, have nuclear physicist and whatever else, in their title, these are not dummies or unemployed like rubes, and they're chatting them up almost like that whole, what do they call? Like pig slaughtering or whatever, when you get a random text saying like, Hey, are we still doing lunch? And then six months of chatting with this person, they're like, it's on your crypto. That's what this sounds like, that they're chatting up as a recruiter, getting you to be friends, and then I don't know, they're asking your nuclear secrets or something, or trying to hire you to North, I don't know how, that's how this isn't working because people are realizing like, "Okay, the English is a little bit off, something doesn't quite seem right here," but how far do we have to go until they do sound like they're credible, till video comes into it until actual voices come in. So this to me is a preliminary fear factor element that we should be aware of that North Koreans were trying to recruit with AI nuclear physicist to build bombs and missiles and all kinds of shit. Joel: So that's kind of scary. It's a little bit of off the beaten path in terms of like legitimacy, but it is scary. It's a little bit weird like. Watch out there kids. And by the way, we had a call with the Job Board Doctor, and we talked about threats to the industry. To me the biggest to the Job Board, whatever industry is, the call is from inside the house, whether it's... We don't do a good enough job of protecting our users, whether people are getting phished and scammed and our data is getting breached on a regular basis, to me that's the biggest threats, is they're gonna shoot themselves in the foot, And LinkedIn is walking a tight wire with stuff like this to really put itself in jeopardy. If I were LinkedIn, man, or any big tech company, this is a real threat. GDPR needs to happen in California, which it kinda has already. Chad: In the US. Joel: In the US. Chad: In the entire US. When the European Union is ahead of us, and they're so far ahead of us on all this stuff, 'cause they actually give a shit. And that's the problem that we're having, we care more about the profits that are being made other than the people who are getting fucked. Joel: And worse on that Chad, the Chinese are way ahead of us as well. Let's take a quick break. Joel: All right, Chad, as is normally our sin for the recording the show during lunchtime, let's talk about some food, Starbucks has introduced a braised pork flavored latte, let me say that again, a braised pork flavored latte in China to celebrate the Lunar New Year, priced at almost $10 USD. Reviews are mixed, with some finding it surprisingly delicious and others deeming it, "disgusting." Well, more food and beverage news, Chad, Gabriela Rodriguez, a cleaner at a top London law firm was fired after eating a leftover tuna sandwich valued about to two quid, as they say in England, from a meeting room. Devonshires Solicitors, the law firm, reportedly did not make a formal complaint, but her employer Total Clean gave her the axe anyway for stealing, Chad. UVW, a union representing migrant workers is taking legal action over claims of unfair dismissal and race discrimination. It's enough to give you indigestion Chad, am I right? What are your thoughts on our food block of stories? Chad: Salty sweet coffee? I'm gonna go ahead and eject out of that one right out of the gate, and again, there are many different tastes all over the world, right, this one just ain't for me. The sandwich thing, if she found the sandwich after hours like it was just laying there, in a conference room... Joel: For trash. Chad: Wasn't in the fridge. Joel: It was prepped for trash. I didn't have barb on it. Chad: Yeah, even if it did have barb on it. It was in a conference room. So big fucking deal. To me, again, retaliating against employees over stupid shit like this, makes no sense whatsoever, and for an... I understand a lot of businesses, they're like, well, we don't wanna lose the business, well, you also have to say, "Look, anything that you don't want us to throw away or eat or drink, get out of the fucking way." It makes no sense whatsoever. And then back to the porky coffee. Again, I don't get it. I might have Julie go get one, and then we'll see. Joel: Clearly Chad your palette is just totally wrong on this one, coffee and bacon, sign me up my friend. We already have it in the form of eggs and bacon with coffee, we're just taking a step out and throwing the bacon in the coffee. I mean, look, it's like a Bloody Mary for a new generation, instead of tomato juice and everything else, we're taking coffee and throwing everything into that. Chad: We're gonna call it the hatch. Joel: Breakfast in a cup is what this is. On-the-go breakfast, bacon in your coffee. You know what isn't better without coffee or without bacon Chad? Chad: What's that? Joel: Nothing. Everything is better with bacon. Everything is better with bacon. All right, now, let's get to our friend... Chad: Almost got a heart attack. Yeah. Joel: Let's get to our friend Gabriella, by the way, I had my physical last week and I'm good to go, man, another year of debauchery and overservice for me, my friend. So let's get to Gabriela, she's a single mother from Ecuador, she had been an employee for two years prior, so she wasn't like "Your first week on the job, get the hell out of here." This was done right around the holidays, and like I said, the sandwich was prepped for the trash, it wasn't like she stole it out of the fridge, or it was nice and hot in the microwave, it was trash. Seriously, these fuckers at Total Clean should have to eat a shit sandwich, there's no bacon on the shit sandwich Chad because it might actually be edible if you put bacon on it, my friend, it might actually be good with bacon on it, free Gabriella, I say, free Gabriella. We out. Outro: Look at you, you made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Jay's podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end, either way, there is no doubt you wish you had that time back, a valuable time you could have used to buy in a nutritious meal and Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty latinas and buck fights on TikTok. No, you hang out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful trainwreck, you can't look away and like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either.

Live from TA Week at the Qualifi booth, the boys sit down with Carrie Corcoran, a leading expert in employment branding and recruitment marketing. With her extensive experience in the industry and her passion for helping businesses create inclusive and diverse work environments, Carrie is a force to be reckoned with. In this episode, we dive deep into the world of employer branding and discuss its importance in attracting top talent. Carrie shares her insights on how companies can leverage technology to improve the candidate experience and create a positive employer brand. As the founder of Carrie Cares Employment Brand Consulting, Carrie has helped numerous businesses develop and implement effective strategies to improve their employer brand and recruitment efforts. She is also a strong advocate for the over 50 workforce, believing that they have a wealth of knowledge and experience to offer companies. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. More The Chad & Cheese Video Podcast Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel Cheesman: Oh yeah. What's up everybody? It is Taylor Swift's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always the Patrick to my SpongeBob Chad Sowash is in the house. We are here live... Chad Sowash: I love Patrick. Joel Cheesman: At TA week from the Qualified Booth and I am just happy to welcome Carrie Corcoran to the show. She is founder of Carrie Care's Employment Brand Consulting. What a welcoming employment branding kind of business name. I like that. Chad Sowash: It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy already. Carrie Corcoran: It does. So you know, I had to incorporate the care in my logo because I manage with heart and humor. Chad Sowash: 'cause Carrie gives a shit was taken. I... What I... Right? Joel Cheesman: Carriegivesashit.com. Chad Sowash: That was taken. Joel Cheesman: Was taken. Carrie Corcoran: Yes, that was taken. I did look for that. Joel Cheesman: Most of our listeners won't know you. Give us a Twitter bio about you as the person. Then we'll dig into the business stuff. Carrie Corcoran: Okay. I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, living on Tulsa time with my husband Sean and my, and our French Bulldog Cosmopolitan girl. Chad Sowash: Cosmopolitan, what? Joel Cheesman: Is it Cosmo for short? Carrie Corcoran: Cosmo for short. Joel Cheesman: There you go. Chad Sowash: Okay. I Like it. Joel Cheesman: Cosmopolitan girl. Okay. Chad Sowash: I'm a dog guy so I love me some Cosmopolitan Girl. Joel Cheesman: Peepers need some Cosmo time at some point. Can we schedule a play date in Tulsa one of these days? Carrie Corcoran: Absolutely. She will probably ignore any dog that comes in front of her, but you can try. Chad Sowash: I don't think Peepers has the ticker for that anymore, so you should probably pull back from that. Joel Cheesman: He does not. Carrie Corcoran: I don't think Cosmo does either. Joel Cheesman: Well maybe it'll work out. So what's the state of employment branding as maybe a better... Carrie Corcoran: Ooh, that's a loaded question. I think that too many companies do not appreciate the value of what employer brand can bring and what it can do for their company. I mean, when done right it aids in retention. It also aids in attraction and it can also aid in a company's bottom line. So when you have those three things that you do well, you're gonna be more successful and you're gonna have hopefully happier people. Happier, happier employees. And so many executives are ignoring it right now. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And they're cutting employer brand people left and right and recruitment marketing. Chad Sowash: Why are they ignoring it? You said that last, that number three bullet that I hardly ever hear from talent acquisition professionals. So why are they not focusing on their brand? Carrie Corcoran: So I think it could be a couple of different reasons. Potentially. Perhaps talent acquisition doesn't own the employer brand. And marketing is running the employer brand and talent acquisition as a stakeholder, which has many challenges in and of itself. And you know, it can sit in different areas, but from my experience, it's always worked best under talent acquisition. Chad Sowash: Uh-huh. Carrie Corcoran: And honestly, they may not have the right people trying to build their employer brand. They may not be strategic enough, they may not have the right experience. And you have to continually educate people across the company what employer brand is and why they should give a shit. Chad Sowash: Well you said bottom line though and we hardly ever hear... Joel Cheesman: Show me the money. Chad Sowash: People in TA because the CEOs, the entire c-suite, the, the board, they care about the bottom line, but we don't talk about that. Carrie Corcoran: Correct. Chad Sowash: We talk about all the warm and fuzzy and fluffy stuff and, and maybe even, you know, time to hire and those things that they don't care about. Carrie Corcoran: It's true. It's true. Chad Sowash: Because we're not tying it to bottom line. That was your third bullet. That to me stands out. So what do you do to be able to help your clients, just companies all over to better understand that we have to tie to that bottom line? How do, how do you do that? Carrie Corcoran: That's a a great question. Um, I haven't quite figured all of that out yet. Chad Sowash: It's not easy. I mean. Carrie Corcoran: I was just being honest. Um. Chad Sowash: From the outside looking in, it's not easy. Right? Carrie Corcoran: It's not easy. No. Chad Sowash: But being on the inside it's a little bit easier 'cause you have those connections. Carrie Corcoran: Right. Chad Sowash: You can chat with the CRO and the CMO and see what really matters to them. Carrie Corcoran: Exactly. Chad Sowash: And how they know that they're impacting the bottom line. Right. Carrie Corcoran: And the challenge too is how do you measure that it is giving you a better ROI? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Or that it, that it is effective besides just looking at the talent acquisition data, which as you know, metrics suck. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And you can't tie anything together because systems don't talk to one another. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And so it's, it's a very hard use case to prove and educating from the highest level down... Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Is of critical importance. And if you don't have buy-in from the top down, most likely it's not gonna be very successful. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Which is why they're getting cut. Carrie Corcoran: Right. Joel Cheesman: What's your read on the pandemic's impact on employer branding? My own perspective is when everyone's in the office, you can feel the culture. You look at it every day, you can feel it. When everyone's at home working, it becomes harder to justify why are we doing things that are culture based? Why are we building a brand when everyone's at home? What's your take on that? My, because I believe it's more important than ever because people are isolated at home. A solid brand is what's gonna keep them engaged more than just being an island at home. Your thoughts? Carrie Corcoran: So been remote working for probably the past four years and I, I do think that it's important to have face-to-face connection and interaction maybe once a quarter with your team. Or maybe it's a company all hands or something like that where you really bring everybody in together and they're able to network and build those relationships with one another. Chad Sowash: Uh-huh. Carrie Corcoran: I do think that this is where companies are not doing connecting well and building connection among their employees and building that community. And that's very hard to do virtually. And there aren't many companies that that do it well. But I don't think that you're less productive when you are working virtually. Chad Sowash: Right. Carrie Corcoran: And with all of these, you know, Fortune 500, 100 bringing people back to the office, now people are saying, I'm not coming back to the office. No, I've been working with the, you know, for the past three years I've been working from home. Chad Sowash: Yeah. It's been okay then why not now? Carrie Corcoran: It was fine now. So, so what's the big deal? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And I think people are waking up to the fact that like, I'm not gonna do what you want just because you want me back in the office. Chad Sowash: Right. Carrie Corcoran: And maybe they won't quit immediately, but they're gonna look for something else. And there it's, it's bad for retention. Chad Sowash: So au-autonomy is what I'm hearing, right? That can be a big part of your employer brand and when you lose that... Carrie Corcoran: Yes. Chad Sowash: That could prospectively really dramatically impact your employer brand, right? Carrie Corcoran: I believe so. Definitely. Chad Sowash: Okay. Okay. Do you think we will see that with a lot of these big brands who are forcing employees back into the office? Do you think we will see that a lot of the, the uh, the talent who wants to... They wanna be treated like adults, they're gonna go to different brands. They, they don't need to work at a Goldman Sachs. They can work somewhere else. Carrie Corcoran: I think we will see an exodus. I don't think that it's going to happen immediately. I mean it has already started happening I think in certain aspects where, you know, maybe someone's like worked for a Fortune 500 or 100 and they're like, Hey, I've never worked for a startup before. Maybe I wanna go do that route instead and try something different. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: So I think it's already starting to happen, but you know, people have to have an income and they have to provide for their basic needs and while they have that... Chad Sowash: They're looking for something else. Carrie Corcoran: They're looking for something else, but they're not gonna quit. Chad Sowash: Gotcha. Carrie Corcoran: And potentially not have anything lined up. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: I mean, unless you're in a dual income family. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Not a lot of people can do that. Chad Sowash: Well we've seen research actually pop out this week that, uh, demonstrated that they believe people are gonna stay put in 2024, but that doesn't mean that they're not looking. Carrie Corcoran: Right. Chad Sowash: Their eyes are wide open, but they're gonna stay put 'cause they're looking for that, that stability and maybe 2025 next thing you know, we, we see job hopping supreme. Carrie Corcoran: So I, I think the next thing that people are gonna look for is, am I serving my purpose and what is that purpose. Chad Sowash: Instead of the company's purpose? Carrie Corcoran: Correct. Chad Sowash: You're focused more on, I mean 'cause as as we grew up and the boomers raised us. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Chad Sowash: We were focused on what is the company's purpose. Carrie Corcoran: Right. Chad Sowash: Not really our purpose so much. Carrie Corcoran: Right. What's your, what's the company's mission? The values? Chad Sowash: Yes. Carrie Corcoran: And no. But I think now there's more of a collective consciousness and a raising of that where people are saying what is my purpose and does this job align to what I am truly... What I should be doing? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Or is it getting cl... Me closer to my purpose and what that looks like? Chad Sowash: Feels very Gen Z. Does it not? Joel Cheesman: Yeah, it does. What's your take on technology's role in all of this? On one hand, ghosting is a huge issue. So automation, chat technologies can kind of get out of the ghost category, but also it's replacing people to do the work that technology is doing. What's your take? Is technology a good thing or a bad thing for employment brand? Carrie Corcoran: Oof. I think technology is a double-edged sword. Why I say that is you still, you're always gonna want and need the human in human relations in employer brand, in recruitment marketing. The companies that have that human touch... Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Are gonna be more successful. Chad Sowash: It's in the title. Carrie Corcoran: With their candidates. Exactly. Like keep the freaking human in HR. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And I do think that technology plays a role and it certainly can help with making things more efficient. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Most companies may be utilized 5% of technology when they purchase it. Chad Sowash: Yes. Carrie Corcoran: When it may be capable of 80% more... Chad Sowash: Right. Carrie Corcoran: Than what they're looking at. And I'm really bad at math, so I don't know if that added up to a hundred or not. Joel Cheesman: You're a brand person. It's okay. Chad Sowash: You're okay. Carrie Corcoran: And with chatGPT I mean, I'm sorry. Like if I can do a project in five minutes using chatGPT and instead of spending two hours on it... Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. Carrie Corcoran: I mean that's efficiency and I'm all about like making it as easy as possible. Chad Sowash: Do you feel like it's gonna get more vanilla though? Kind of like, uh, adult contemporary radio in the '80s, everything on the radio sounded the exact same, right? Do you think it's gonna be kinda like the same thing? Carrie Corcoran: Well, everything on the news sounds the exact same, so, uh. Chad Sowash: Are you saying they're using chatGPT and and Bard, uh, to do these things? Carrie Corcoran: Well, I wouldn't be surprised. Chad Sowash: I wouldn't, yeah. I wouldn't be either. Yes. Carrie Corcoran: Um, I, you know, I forgot the question. So. Joel Cheesman: Let me pivot to this real quick. I'm always fascinated by the generational divides of what people think are important. Chad mentioned, you know, gen X rub some dirt on it and get back out there versus the millennials and the gen uh, gen Zs are coming up. How do you think as an employment brand expert, the generations, uh, are separate or how we should be thinking about the generations in different ways? Carrie Corcoran: So I think, I mean, because I am over 50 and I am Gen X, I believe that there's a huge gap with discrimination for the over 50. And we have so much knowledge and value that we can bring to a company, but because they always say, oh, they're too much money, we don't wanna pay them to do that. Well, would you rather pay someone more money and have faster results? Or would you rather just have someone figure it out themselves who's no offense, like, you know, 25, 26 years old out of college. Chad Sowash: Right. Carrie Corcoran: And it takes them a year. Chad Sowash: Yeah. You're gonna need two or three of those individuals to actually do what one... Carrie Corcoran: Exactly. Chad Sowash: Let's a Gen X or, somebody who has more experience, right. Connections, those types of things. Carrie Corcoran: Right? So there's certainly a different divide. So the millennials, maybe they want more, they're more interested in working for innovative companies, or having a real impact on, you know, how can I help change the world by working for a company and things like that. So there's definitely a divide there with Gen Z. I mean, I, I'm petrified to death of TikTok. It is a way to reach them. But. Chad Sowash: It's, it's amazing. You should try it out. Joel Cheesman: You gotta embrace it. Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. Joel Cheesman: You gotta embrace it. Chad Sowash: The best 30 minutes of my day is on TikTok. Carrie Corcoran: One, uh, one day. Joel Cheesman: That is Carrie Corcoran. Everybody with the Carrie Cares Employment brand Consulting Business. Chad Sowash: Carrie Cares. Joel Cheesman: For those that want to connect with you, learn more about your company. Carrie, where would you send them? Carrie Corcoran: I would send them to LinkedIn. Look for Carrie Corcoran, Carrie Cares Employer Brand. And I also have a YouTube channel where... Chad Sowash: Oh, look at you. Carrie Corcoran: I have many educational videos out there. Chad Sowash: Nice. Carrie Corcoran: Carrie Cares Employment Brand on YouTube as well. Joel Cheesman: Love it. That is one in the can from the TA Tech Week conference live from the Qualify booth. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Podcast Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss is so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese, is so weird. We out.

The future of recruiting is a popular topic these days. With AI and automation tools that are on a whole other level to tech of the past, many wonder how the future will play out for the profession that has for so long been a staple of corporate strategy. Fortunately, we have wise ol' veterans who know the past, but can also see around corners better than most. Age and vision are in short supply. That's why we had Kevin Wheeler, author, speaker and founder of Global Learning Resources, to the podcast. Kevin has a new book coming out in February entitled, “Talent Acquisition Excellence: Using Digital Capabilities and Analytics to Improve Recruitment,” that will prove helpful to those hoping the navigate the future like an ancient oracle. We're talkin' predictions for 2024, the pandemic impact, labor uprisings, how the kids are alright, and much more. Listen, subscribe, like and share. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, flash brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Yeah, it's your AI copilot's favorite podcast, aka the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joined as always, the Terminator to my RoboCop, Chad Sowash is in the house. Chad: Hello. Joel: And we are super excited to welcome Kevin Wheeler, author, speaker, icon, founder of Global Learning Resources, and just all around nice guy to the show. Kevin, welcome. Chad: How you doing, Kevin? Kevin Wheeler: I'm good. A guy with no headphones. Chad: You're good. You're good. You've got headphones on. You're fine. You're fine. Joel: You sound great, Kevin. Sound great. And might I say, one of the best heads of hair for one of the veterans in the industry. Chad: Yeah it's pretty sexy. Joel: I've always been an admirer of your hair. Kevin Wheeler: I still have hair. Joel: That is good. That is good. That is good. So beyond hair, I mentioned you're an icon. I met you 15 years ago. I know that you were cracking before that. Give the listeners who don't know you a Twitter bio about Kevin. Kevin Wheeler: See, I've been in the recruiting space since the '80s. Started out as a corporate recruiter and in corporate HR and spent 17 years in the corporate world and then went out on my own, started Global Learning Resources and the Future of Talent Institute. And I run both of those organizations right now. We really focus on future trends in the HR Space, but we really focus on recruitment and learning and development. Those are our two primary areas. And so we look at what are the trends, what's going to look like in a few more years. So we try to look out as far as we can. We don't have a crystal ball. We just kind of do a trend analysis. We did a lot of work with SRI, which was the old Stanford Research Institute, and we use techniques from them and the Institute for the Future, which is where I spent some time working there when I first started out on my own. And so we use a lot of techniques that they use to do future looking forecasting. Joel: You're in Australia a lot, aren't you? Kevin Wheeler: I am. I have a business in Australia as well. Joel: Oh, have you been bitten by one of the many venomous animals in Australia? Kevin Wheeler: No. You know, it's really overrated. Their venomous animals, they're there, but they don't like the cities. So as long as you're not out in the country. Joel: Wise. Kevin Wheeler: You're pretty safe. Yeah. Joel: Wise. Chad: Joel's afraid to go. He knows he's going to be eaten by something. Anyway, Kevin, tell the kids at home. I mean, you were a recruiter back in the column inches days, back in the days when resumes were actually on paper. So talk a little bit about, I mean, we're seeing huge advancements now, but talk about the difference between advancements back from column inches to online, from today online to AI. Kevin Wheeler: Not a whole lot has changed, I mean, if I had... Chad: Holy shit! Really? Kevin Wheeler: If you were, if I had disappeared for the last 30 years and came back, it would probably take me 2 hours to get back into it again. That's how little has changed. The major change is the computer. Right. The Internet. That's really it. Instead of paper, we just, we look at paper online now. That's all. So we haven't really changed anything except we went from a physical piece of paper to a digital piece of paper. We still do everything the same way. We still interview, we still source we still, instead of cold calling, which we still do some, but now we search people on the Internet. So really other than the computer, it's been very little difference. Recruiter productivity hasn't improved. If you had a professional hires, you did 20 reqs, maybe 15-20 reqs today, same thing. Nothing's changed. Chad: But scale has changed, though, right? I mean, you would get like three applications for a job. Today you get 300. So scale has changed dramatically. And that recruiter who actually owned that req back in the day when they had three resumes, today they have 300, the workload has changed dramatically. Right? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. You'd certainly get more resumes today than you did back then. A lot more than used to get, but the difference is you can screen the ones today more quickly using the technology. If you use the technology, which most people do to some degree. Chad: You should. Kevin Wheeler: Back then, I had to read. I had to open envelopes and read every one of them. So, anyway, you had three, but it was sort of like 30 that are online. Chad: What's an envelope? What's an envelope? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah, what's an envelope? Right. Yeah, right. Then you had to read the cover letter. That was usually a piece of crap and so... Chad: Still is. Kevin Wheeler: It still is. Chad: Bard and Chat GPT, they do a hell of a cover letter today. Kevin Wheeler: They do a really good job. They do, yeah. And they make up really good resumes too. Joel: Am I hearing bullish or bearishness on the recruiting profession Kevin? As you talk, tell us about the past and the future. Kevin Wheeler: Well, I just I don't, neither really. It's neutral. I think. It hasn't done anything. It's pretty much the same as it always was. The only thing that's really happened is that we now use to some degree, not all recruiters, but many do use computers and so forth. But this small company recruiters who don't do it any differently than I did 30 years ago, they still get paper resumes. They still, it's amazing. But when you look at all the professions out there, finance, anything, it's all changed dramatically. But HR and recruiting have not changed that much. Chad: Why write a book if nothing has changed? You just wrote a book. Joel: He wrote it in 1987 and just added the Internet to where it said newspapers, so it's the same book. Kevin Wheeler: Because Chat GPT is a weapon of mass destruction. All right? Joel: Oh, let's get to the title because it's a mouthful, Kevin. So it's coming out in February, late February. It's pre-sale at Amazon, Target, all your favorites It's called Talent Acquisition Excellence, using digital capabilities and analytics to improve recruitment. Now, you co-authored this with our friend Bas in the Netherlands. Kevin Wheeler: Right. Joel: So tell us about the origin, what message you're trying to give, what preparation for the future you're hoping to relay to the reader. Kevin Wheeler: Sure. You know, Bas and I have known each other for a long time. I do a lot of work in the Netherlands with different organizations. And we were just talking about the impact that AI already has had and is going to have much more over the next few years. And we decided it was time to put down some of our thoughts on paper. So that's kind of what we did. We took, we've been working on this book for over a year, year and a half or so, and a lot changed in the time we were writing the book obviously, lots of things have changed. But Chat GPT is a game changer for many things. It's probably as powerful for recruiting, maybe more powerful than the Internet was in that it actually allows people to actually not do things that they used to have to do or think that they had to do, help find people, screen people, assess people, even engage them in conversation, things that recruiters historically believe they have to do or that nothing else can do it except them. And I think now we're finding that other things like AI can do a lot of what they do, and that's a game changer. Chad: So what is the book about? Is it literally just talking about doomsday destruction, dystopian. Hey, look, the robots are taking our stuff? Kevin Wheeler: No. Chad: So talk about it. What's the book talking about? Kevin Wheeler: All right, first of all, it talks about all the trends that are impacting talent in general. All right? Stuff like demographics, things like changing nature of work, what people are thinking about work. The pandemic was also a huge catalyst in this. All right? So there's several things that have sort of come together, the demographic, the declining populations all over the western world for sure, and in China and places like that. That's short, that's increasing the talent shortage and will exacerbate it big time over the next few years. You combine that with the impact of the pandemic, which really got people thinking differently about work. Maybe I can work from home now, maybe I don't have to do it the way I used to do it. Kevin Wheeler: Everybody, corporations, CEOs, everybody's looking at work in a different way than they did before. And again, that's enabled to a large degree by the Internet, but it's also enabled by the generative AI, the tools that exist now, and much more capability with virtual reality and other things that are about to hit the marketplace and change a lot. I mean, I think in two or three years from now, we would feel like we're sitting in the same room together because we'll have the virtual capabilities to make that reality. So that's going to change a lot of things about work, about should we go back to the office? Well, the office may be brought to you via virtual tools. So these things are all changing everything about talent, about work. Companies, organizations, governments are all faced with new challenges, like the gig-workforce, which is huge now. It's probably 20% of the workforce or more. Kevin Wheeler: And growing is people that are independent and want to stay independent. And governments are doing their best to coerce people back to full-time work. And the reason for that partly is taxes. Freelancers only pay taxes occasionally, where when you work for the man, you pay them every week. So the government has a predictable source of income coming from payroll deduction taxes. Freelancers, they don't have that. They can't predict how much they're going to get and when they're going to get it. So there's a lot of subtle things nobody talks about, nobody thinks about that have an impact on why people are pushing people back to work, why we want full-time workers and not gig-workers, because cities are suffering tax wise by not having full buildings. Professor Berkeley says for every job that we create in a company, you create five ancillary jobs. People like the restaurant owner, the waitress, the dry cleaner. So every time you lay somebody off, you've in fact laid off five people. So these are huge impacts on employment and on the tax-base in cities. So there's all kinds of things that are in-flux right now that are changing. Joel: Kevin, we hear like, this will be a net loss of jobs, but we're going to gain more jobs because of AI. Like, where are you on? Will we gain more jobs because of this technology like we have in the past, or is this time different? Kevin Wheeler: Well, I guess it depends on how you define a job. And if you define a job as working for a corporation from eight to five, we're going to lose those jobs, but we're going to gain a lot more jobs independent, working independently, working on their own schedules and using their own skill-sets the way they want to. So it's going to be really hard to say, are we going to gain or lose jobs or employment? I think in the end, most people will still find something to do to earn money. It's just going to be different than the way we used to doing it in the past. And it's not going to be a revolution. It's going to be an evolution, that's already happened. It's big time. When you've got 20% of the workforce already as a gig-worker and you look at Gen Z and Gen Alpha, which is the generation after Gen Z, they're already copping out. They're saying, I don't want to do this. I don't want to work for companies. I'm going to figure out ways to be entrepreneurial. Chad: Which is evolution, like you're talking about. I mean, the movement to remote work instead of Henry Ford nine to five, 40 hours a week, it's all about productivity and being able to hit those sales goals, those product goals, whatever they are, right? It could take somebody 20 hours a week to do what somebody else does in 40, it almost feels like CEOs are trying to stop this evolution. Can it be stopped, number one? And number two, I mean, if you are getting paid gig-wise, as long as it's not under the table, you're still going to pay those taxes. It's just going to be at the back-end and they're going to be a big ass chunk. Right? So what's bad about the evolution? And can CEOs and government stop this evolution? Kevin Wheeler: Can you stop it? No, there's no way, you can't stop revolutions. They don't get stopped. You can slow them down, you can get in the way of them, but you can't stop them. So I think it's really a matter of the, CEOs are pushing people to come back for a couple of reasons. One is political pressure that may be subtly applied through city governments and state governments to them calling them up and saying, look, guys, this is impacting our revenues, our taxes, and so forth and so on. But it's also that they're my age, they grew up in the time when everybody worked eight to five, and that's all they know. That's what they're used to. Chad: They punch the clock, they punch the clock. Right? Kevin Wheeler: They punch the clock. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, for them, that's work. That's how you define work. Right. And they can't even imagine how you can sit at home and do what you guys are doing and make money. They can't understand that. All right. Joel: We still can't understand that Kevin. Who do you hope reads the book? Is it executives? Is it recruiters? Is it the kids out there looking for career options? Kevin Wheeler: It's not going to... Joel: Who do you hope reads this? Kevin Wheeler: I don't think it's going to be the kids out there. I think hopefully it'll be recruiters. Hopefully it will be HR people, and hopefully we'll get a few CEOs to read the book. That would be great. Joel: Yeah, you better get on TikTok, Kevin, if you want the kids to notice. Kevin Wheeler: I know. I know. Joel: @Kevinwheeler, TikTok channel coming soon. Kevin Wheeler: TikTok. Yeah. I'm on TikTok, but I still can't figure out how to use it. So it's... Joel: Yeah. You wrote a post recently kind of pivoting away from the book about predictions for 2024. Any of your lists that you want to highlight that you're really, really positive or optimistic about? Kevin Wheeler: Well, I mean, obviously the first prediction was that generative AI would become a dominant player in recruitment, and it definitely will. I mean, I think you're going to find that recruiters are going to have to, there're going to be a lot fewer recruiters. We've seen massive layoffs of recruiters in the last year. That's not going to change. They're not going to get hired back. There's no reason to hire them back. Joel: So, I want to dig into that real quick. So a lot of recruiters listening to this are going, holy shit, my job is gone or I'm at risk of losing my job and I'm not coming back. That tells me that, that just really concerns me, what do you tell them in terms of what they should do? Get a new line of work, learn new skills? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. Joel: What advice would you give them after saying the jobs aren't coming back for recruiters? Kevin Wheeler: All the above. I'll put it this way. If you're a seasoned recruiter who's been doing this for a few years, you're probably going to have, you're going to be able to get a job and keep a job for a while, but you're going to need new skills to do that. You're going to need to get in-touch with, in-tune with AI and with the technology that's out there and you're going to have to let go of some of those things that you have cherished, such as only I can screen people and only I can interview people and so forth. Chad: Yes. Kevin Wheeler: We're going to have to let those things go away. If you're a new, if you've just been in recruiting for a year or two and got laid-off, go find a new job because I don't think you're going to find a long-term future in recruiting. Okay? The thing is, recruiters are going to have to reinvent their profession and that's really what it's all about. And by reinventing it, let Chat GPT and generative AI do what it can do best and then figure out what it can't do and do that. And that's really going to be the more judgment stuff, the marketing stuff, the relationship building, the influencing kind of things. All right, so if I can find for most jobs, Chat GPT or the generative AI tools will be able to find the people you're looking for, for the routine jobs, for sure. They're out there. Kevin Wheeler: So it can find them. It can assess their skills in a very objective way. If you're a coder, if you're a writer, it can look at writing samples or code samples and assess them against the job reqs and job requirements and it can present that candidate to a hiring manager. I envision the day when a hiring manager can go to their terminal and type-in that I'm looking for X and a few minutes later it appears in their screen, all pre-screened and sorted by generative AI. I think that's reality that's going to happen. Now, it may not happen for every job. It's not going to happen for maybe the senior level executive kind of jobs and so forth. But for most jobs, it's going to be a routine kind of thing. Okay? So you don't even need a recruiter at all in that. Chad: So, Kevin, the interesting thing is that, let's say for these large language models and some of these algorithms, they've been around forever. And to be able to do what you just said, go into my database and match it up against a requisition, we've been able to do that for 10 years. Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. Chad: What has been the moment that actually made everybody to say, oh, shit, we need to start adopting this because now everybody's talking about large language models. Well, we had them before, we had the data before and some of these companies have been around for years, so why now? Kevin Wheeler: Well, I'll just push back a little bit. I'll say we didn't have large language models. We had algorithms, all right? And they're different. And we had algorithms that were recipes, basically. If you see this, do this. We could look at a req, match it up against a candidate's specifically listed skill-set. But we couldn't intuit. We couldn't intuit skills. We couldn't use the capabilities that now exist in large language models to look at those skills and say, well, if this person can do this, then probably they can do this. Kevin Wheeler: All right? We couldn't do that before. It was just a one-for-one matching process and algorithms, all right? So, now we've got the ability to use more, I guess you'd call fuzzy matching tools or ability. So, I can look at you guys and say, oh, you guys do podcasts. Well, you're probably pretty good speakers. You're probably good doing a whole bunch of other things, okay? So, I could intuit that because I'm a human being and I can figure out, probably you guys have other things you could do and you're probably be pretty good at it because of what you do now. An algorithm can't do that. The large language models can do that and that's what's so powerful. And after a company has used these models for a while and they've gotten and they've learned, which is another capability that algorithms don't generally have, these are capable of learning, they can actually get and continuously improve as they get feedback and see the results of their recommendations. Kevin Wheeler: So, if they recommend three people to you with certain qualifications and none of them ever get hired, they're going to change their process. They're going to change their algorithms to become more attuned to what you're actually looking for. So, there's a lot of subtle differences in the large language models and the power that we now have in computing. Again, up until a few years ago, computing was very constricted by the amount of computing power you had. Chad: CPUs versus GPUs. GPUs and NVIDIA have kicked ass. Kevin Wheeler: Oh, kicked ass. Totally, totally changed the game, okay? So, I mean, NVIDIA's hardware has been the winner for the last few years. I think over the next few, you're going to see software gaining more and more capabilities. So, there's been real fundamental changes in what's going on. I have to talk to Alexa. Alexa, turn on the office. [laughter] Joel: I'm so happy we got Kevin Wheeler to say kick ass on a podcast. If nothing else comes of this podcast, that was great. Kevin Wheeler: Listener, you're welcome. Joel: Yeah, you're welcome, internet. You're welcome, industry. So, Kevin, Chad and I advise quite a few startups that sell this stuff, develop it. And one of the things that I hear, I'm sure Chad does as well, is that there tends to be a natural pushback on this technology because you're potentially taking my job if we buy your service. So, you have all these sort of forces working against and for. The other part of that, in light of forces of change, you in California with minimum wage laws, which I have to think are pushing more and more companies to automate and use AI because I don't have to hire anybody or pay them anything because I can get the robots to do that. Curious about your opinion of the push and pull of technology. I assume it's just going to happen, but you have government involved. You have the industry involved. These companies want to go to the CEO. They don't want to talk to HR anymore because HR isn't going to buy this thing because it might mean their job. Talk about that. Kevin Wheeler: I mean, clearly, this pushback. Obviously, nobody, very few people welcome a tool that's going to take away their job. The guys that used to dig ditches before the bulldozer didn't want the bulldozer to come. You've got the old story of John Henry, the pile driving guy who didn't want automated railroad development. These histories are not new. These have been going on. But the bottom line is stopping. Technology is not possible. It's not possible to stop it. So, inevitably, it's going to take over more and more of these roles. And a smart person looks at ways to get better than the technology or develop skills the technology doesn't have. So, I mean, I think that clearly there's going to be a huge push toward automation, partly because of costs and partly because of productivity. Kevin Wheeler: I look at the UAW agreement recently, which is a five years on parole before they're all gone. Okay, so we're going to give you we're going to give you a lot of money for five years, way more than we've ever given any union contract before, because we're going to use that five years to automate everything in the plant. And in five years, we're not going to need you guys. This is what's happening. I mean, this is the reality. They know that when they look at Japan, which is, the car manufacturing there is like 80% automated and it's going to go even more that we're going to... And General Motors is way behind. So you're going to see this acceleration and the use of automation for everything. Joel: And that's the same for the in and out worker. Like enjoy the next five years of $20 per hour, because after that, the clock strikes twelve. Kevin Wheeler: That's exactly right. So, if you're smart and you kind of look ahead and see that and what are the occupations that are coming? Well, we don't know yet. There'll be new ones. There'll be a lot of things that people do. I mean, thirty, hundred years ago, people were telephone operators and elevator operators and everything else that are long gone in history. But those people all found other things to do. So I'm pretty sure that we will continue to generate work for people. But it may be work that's done part time. It may be done freelance. It's not maybe going to be going to a factory or to an office building. So we're completely changing work. Joel: Where are you on UBI in favor? Not so much? Universal basic income, particularly in California. Kevin Wheeler: I mean, I think, again, that's some sort of that is inevitable. Just to look at if you're General Motors and I can now automate car manufacturing so I can lower my costs tremendously, which increases my profits tremendously because I'm not paying people to work. I'm not trying to pay these robots. So I'm going to generate excessive profits, which we have to. It's all about redistributing income, right? So what do we do? How do we redistribute? Chad: Always has been. Kevin Wheeler: Always has been. So if we if we can tax those organizations at the same rate or roughly the same rate they would have paid wages, then we can redistribute that to people as universal basic income. All right. Now, the experiments that have been done with UBI are very positive. It's about people don't just sit back and watch TV all day. They actually find other things to do, but they don't have to worry about, paying for their lodging and their food. So I'm not saying we give people a 100 grand a year, but you give people enough money that they don't worry about the basics in life. And then they can go and do things that they're passionate about or they love or they like to do. So I think UBI and the history of where it's worked well in many places it has is pretty positive. And Europe has a sort of UBI. I mean, they don't really call it that, but they have a pretty heavily subsidized safety net, they call it. So nobody nobody goes without housing or without medical care because the government covers that. And those countries aren't dying. They're doing okay. And I think, most other countries will follow that, will have to follow that because the automation wave is going to force that to happen. Chad: The actual taxing, I think, is going to be the the key when we start taking a look at these jobs and obviously profitability. Well, what we've seen and we don't have any guardrails on this unfortunately, is during the pandemic, profit margins just exploded. Profit margin exploded, then we want to blame inflation on people buying stuff when it's expanded profit margins. And then what happens? Then we have to play the whole economic game of now. We have to raise interest rates to hit the low wage earners and the middle wage earners. I mean, there's got to be new mechanisms to be able to help everybody in the stack, not just the top, which unfortunately we've seen. It's been fed by trickle, not non-trickle down economics for over 40 years. Kevin Wheeler: Yeah, absolutely. Chad: You think this is going to do it, though? Is this really going to push all of that out the window? Kevin Wheeler: It's definitely going to help. It may not be. I think more quite a few progressive economists and others are thinking about we have to overhaul the whole tax system, our whole way of generating government revenues. Everything is based on the 20th century eight to five workday model. That's that's what we built it on. In the golden age, back when the Rockefellers and the Carnegie Mellons and all built, 500 room mansions that they used for one month a year was because we didn't have an income tax and we didn't redistribute income. So the income tax that came in in the early 1900s was a huge, huge shift. A massive shift in how we redistribute income. And that created the 20th century world that we're used to. So we're in another massive change of how do we redistribute income again? What's the mechanism for doing that? And we have... It's probably not going to be the traditional income tax that we're used to. It's probably going to be a very different set of tools. I don't know what they are yet. I'm not an economist, but clearly we need to rethink the whole system of how we distribute income. And technology is clearly going to play a major role in that. Joel: And the US isn't in a bubble anymore. It's a global economy working remotely. Any thoughts on how that shakes out, particularly with geopolitical risks that we're coming to a head with China? Kevin Wheeler: We've got so many facing us right this moment. And who knows, we may be in a war in the Middle East and Europe before this year's out. Looking not so good every day. We've got all kinds of issues there. China has serious economic problems right now. The only place that the World Economic Forum right now is predicting GDP growth is Asia. And Asia looks pretty solid right now, especially Southeast Asia, Singapore, Indonesia, those countries, they look pretty robust. GDP, maybe 4 or 5% growth this year, where the US is predicted to be 1.2 maybe, maybe less. We've got real shifts and where the money is and where the power is. Joel: I don't want to end this on a bummer of like World War 3. I'm going to ask about a post that you wrote or at least shared. It was entitled The Future Workplace is on Campus. I found that interesting. Did you write that? And if so, what do you mean? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah, I think the younger people, college grads, maybe not just college grads, are the ones that are changing the world. They always have been and they always will be. The change is coming from them when you look at how they're reacting to work, how they're facing employment decisions. It's completely different than the way you and I thought about things when we were their age. So they're not all... Some of them are definitely applying at General Electric and Amazon for jobs. But a lot of them aren't, a whole bunch aren't? A lot of them aren't even finishing uni. They're dropping out. 60% of guys who start university don't finish within a five to six year period. Huge statistic. So we've got a lot of people just opting to do things in a very different way and go out on their own, explore their own world and develop their own careers and their own jobs. And they're going to invent a lot of new things. Joel: Thank God the millennials are making the young choices anymore. They're the old people like us. That is Kevin Wheeler, everybody. Kevin, for those who want to connect with you or you want to piss that book, where would they go to get that thing? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. Go on Amazon. Look for Talent Acquisition Excellence. You'll find it there. You can look at look me up at the futureoftalent.org website or globallearningresources.com. Happy to chat. Chad: Excellent. Joel: That's Kevin Wheeler, Chad. Another one is in the can. Let's not wait another six years before we bring Kevin onto the show again. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Kevin Wheeler: See ya. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one, cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who? Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. This is so weird. We out.

Torin Ellis, a self-described coach, consultant, and speaker specializing in diversity and inclusion joins the boys for a Black History Month check-on on the current state of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). Torin shares his perspective on the importance of universal design and organizational redesign in fostering inclusivity, addressing the backlash against "wokeism," the challenges in advancing DEI, and the need for a collective voice to combat setbacks, such as Supreme Court decision to terminate Affirmative Action. Torin emphasizes the significance of taking action and not just relying on discussions, urging organizations to address issues like pay inequality actively. The trio explores strategies to navigate the socio-political landscape and drive progress in DEI initiatives. Then we discuss a controversial statements made by Governor Ron DeSantis, equating slavery to a work training program, and emphasizing the importance of addressing racism and inequality beyond just conversations in black churches but spreading awareness in various communities. The conversation delves into the challenges of building relationships, advocating for honest discussions around diversity, equity, and inclusion. Torin shares insights into the increasing demand for diversity and inclusion education in companies, highlighting the need for CEOs to make a genuine commitment, allocate resources, and be held accountable for diversity initiatives. The discussion also touches on the performative nature of some diversity efforts and the importance of tangible outcomes. Torin reflects on the debate between Elon Musk and Mark Cuban, emphasizing the need for action in addition to public discourse. Finally, as it is Black History Month, Torin shares his personal connection to the month and encourages understanding and support from individuals, acknowledging the potential for positive change when addressing interference in achieving diversity goals. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah. It's SZA's favorite podcast, AKA The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joined as always, the Arsenio to my Eddie, Chad Sowash is in the house. And we welcome back, good friend of the show, Torin Ellis. He is the Principal of the Torin Ellis brand, one of the best speakers around, consultant, advisor, and just all around good dude. Torin, welcome again to the podcast. Torin Ellis: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I think it was back in September, 2018. I get to meet my Chad and Cheese debut. It was beautiful. And let me tell you, it was around the time where we were celebrating blockchain and artificial intelligence and machine learning. We talked a lot about cryptocurrency and some of the other attributes of change inside of the workplace. But then, Joel and Chad, we were also ignoring babies in cages. And here we are now in 2024, where it's taken more than 200 times for us to federal, on a federal level, pass an anti-lynching bill, more than 200 attempts to pass an anti-lynching bill. And yet in the last two years, we've seen more than 500 critical race theory bills in states all across the country. So we got a whole lot of work to do. Joel: So leave it to you to jump right to the... Go right to the chase. Torin Ellis: Right to the meat. Joel: Believe it or not, some of our listeners don't know you yet, Torin. Give us a quick Twitter bio about you, and then we'll dive into all this shit. Torin Ellis: Yeah, I appreciate that. Coach, consultant, speaker, all things, diversity and inclusion. Said another way, I am a frequency of humanity. I am a voice of humanity. I am an advocate of humanity. And so everything that I am attempting to do for the both of you and for the audience, everything that I'm attempting to do is to just simply make it better for people in the places in which they work. Chad: It's pretty amazing because when I first got into the, let's say for instance, the state federal government and working with them along with major Fortune 500 companies, we heard this term "universal design." And universal design meant it was good for everybody. Individuals with disabilities didn't matter, right? Whether you couldn't hear, you didn't have sight, didn't matter, right? Universal design. But the beautiful part about universal design is it didn't just make things accessible for those individuals. It made things better for everybody. So what you're talking about, and I wish we could get on this talk track, okay? This doesn't just... Everybody's talking about, they want to focus on race, they want to focus on gender, they want to focus on people who are not gendered, right? Instead of saying, "This is good for humanity. It's all good. Let's roll with it." Chad: And that being said, unfortunately, and this is out in the New York Times, there's been a backlash against what is called the "wokeism" on banning DEI programs in public universities. And even in states, there have been books, there's just been so much backlash. We had such great momentum after the tragedy of George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd, right? We had so much momentum, and we felt like we were going in the right direction. But for God's sake, what the hell happened? Torin Ellis: Yeah. So first, I want to go back to the universal design piece because for a person like myself, I tend to go into organizations and/or will stand on stage and say, or use the phrase "organizational redesign." And it's not that I feel like the universal design is short-sighted. It's not that I feel universal design is in any way dismissive or nefarious. I think it was a best attempt at that time. And I feel like it's a best attempt in the time, wherever it's... Whether it be a product, a service, some sort of access to a building, whatever, I do feel like universal design has its place in our commentary. I also feel like we should be spending a great deal of time in organizational redesign, which is where I am. And so to your question, Chad, of what happened, I feel like it's one of those situations where individuals that are in power don't want to relinquish that power. Torin Ellis: They don't feel like they can share that power, which is part of what I said in my presentations from 2021 up until now, we need a shift in that relationship with power, period. We need to find a frequency. We need to find that metal within us that allows us to speak up, to have voice in situations that are unjust or that are unfair or that are biased or that are inequitable. We absolutely have to be able to call a spade a spade. And what that means in calling that out is, there will be some sacrifice. There will be some sacrifice. People will lose promotional opportunity. They will lose favor with their bosses, the in-crowd in the workplace. You will lose choice assignments. You may lose bumps in pay or whatever. You will sacrifice when you use your voice, but it's mandatory that we use our voice because status quo honestly is killing us. Torin Ellis: It is a direct correlation between the rise in mental health and challenges that people are exhibiting and discussing in the workplace, and the fact that so many are trying to remain status quo. So I believe the callback that we are experiencing... And quite frankly, I don't even call it a callback. It's a robbery. Chad: Yeah. Torin Ellis: You know what I'm saying? Theft. We don't know who took it. It happened. We weren't there. We couldn't see them. But this right here is a robbery of the progress that we've made in diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. We see the people who are taking it from us or attempting to take it from us, and it's up to us to arrest them. Joel: How would you define the current state of DEI? There was a period where it was on the upswing. We're all sort of on the same page and moving things forward. And then as you mentioned, it got politicized. It got used as a way to garner attention or political clout or power. Where do you see it today and where do you see it 12, 24 months from now? Torin Ellis: Yeah. Where I see it today is, we still need to advocate even for our educators. The way that I opened up the show, so many people in classrooms all across this country are wrestling with, well, how do we talk about and celebrate and amplify Black History Month? And next month, it'll be Women's Month, Women's History Month. And I can guarantee you, there are going to be people who are going to be struggling with, well, how do we amplify and talk about the incredible work from this particular woman or these groups of women or whatever the case may be? So I still see DEI as potent. I see it as present. I see it as effective now as it has ever been. And where I see it in 12 to 24 months is that we will have made progress. Torin Ellis: The question, Joel, is how much progress? And what I'm tired of, if "tired" is the right descriptor, I'm tired of minimal progress. It's so small that even that tiny bit of advancement, that tiny bit of shared-ness, if you will, is something that people are trying to take back. And so I believe that we will see progress today. We'll see it at the end of 2024. We'll see it in 2025 and 2026. Question becomes, how much of it will we see? Joel: But from where you sit, minimal progress, but then from my perspective we see like huge hits. So when the Supreme Court throws out affirmative action, that's many steps back for a few steps forward from there. So you talk about progress, but what's your sense of these big hits that we're taking with, whether it's state legislation and public education, whether it's the Supreme Court? Like from where you sit, these are huge hits, yes? Torin Ellis: Yeah, they are, which is the reason why I would challenge a leader who says that we are an apolitical organization. You cannot detach the reality of how an individual grows up or how an individual is living, migrating, navigating life. And so just like you said, you bring all of that to the workplace. There are people who heard that decision who were floored. Floored. They couldn't even focus the day that that decision came out from the Supreme Court, and for days and weeks, maybe even months after that. So you can't really separate the two. They are major hits. But what I would suggest is, it's in those times that we absolutely have to be willing to exercise that voice, feeling empowered enough in our space that we can speak to that situation. Torin Ellis: We don't need to be somebody else. Just be who you are and voice to your HR team, "I don't like this. What are we going to do to make sure that we can take care of the marginalized, the underrepresented in our workplace? How can we make sure that we are protecting them?" Because while all of that is happening in the Supreme Court, what are we doing to make sure that we are protecting our employees, which in that case happen to be women? Chad: It seems, okay, so Roe v. Wade, affirmative action. We've been talking about the small victories over the years of, let's say, just focus on pay equity, right? It would take 50 years. And everybody's talking about progress. And this is what drives me so fucking crazy, is that the progress is so small that it's going to take decades for us to actually win and meet up together, right? To see equity at all. The question is, there's got to be something we can do to change the narrative to be able to bring more people under the big circus tent so that we can all work together to get to this goal, right? And the big question is, and I see what's happening from the side of the right who are actually bringing litigation lawsuits, those types of things, that they're trying to split, which they have over the years, us by race, right? Chad: So if we take a look at it, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't focus on those things, but if we take a look at all the individuals under a certain socioeconomic line and we focus on all of those people, no matter what color, no matter what gender, what have you, just to be able to drive equity, pay, those types of things, do you think that is prospectively a more successful narrative moving forward? Because we've got to find a narrative, man. We've got to. Torin Ellis: Well, it's a narrative as well as action, Chad. And so I think it's not an either/or proposition. It is that. And so to your point, when we discuss pay inequality, why do we need another report to share with us that we have pay inequality? Why can't we do what Marc Benioff did with Salesforce a few years back? And they went through and looked at compensation for the entire workforce, not once, not twice, but three times, I believe that was the year of 2019 or so. They looked at pay compensation three times in a year to get pay equity across the organization. It's a matter of, "Let's have the conversation, but then let's be willing to take action." And when you see individuals that would prefer to be an impediment to progress, when you see individuals that are being stalwarts of stalling, you have to be able to call that out. And so sometimes it's the collective voice. Torin Ellis: Torin by himself is not necessarily going to work. Torin, Chad, and Joel together is a little bit stronger. Torin, Chad, and Joel times 10 is even stronger. And so I would believe that in many of these situations, it's the collective voice that we are missing. We have too many scattered voices that are working. We need collective voices that are amplifying these disservices or injustices that exist in our marketplace. And let me just say this to you. Like I said in the beginning, 200 times to get an anti-federal lynching bill. That wasn't signed until 2022. Now what in God's green earth would make a person say hanging an individual or lynching an individual is something that I can't get behind? 2022. So it's the collective voice. Sometimes it's going to take us a little bit longer. The fight is going to be a bit more uphill. It's going to be a bit more challenging and nuanced, but we must fight. Torin Ellis: And where I believe we are missing is... And when I use "fight," I use that nicely as well. It's in our taking action. We tire from taking action. And the secret is, that's what they are predicting. That's what they are banking on. The other side is banking on, how can we distract them? How can we get them off of focusing on the pay inequality? How can we get them focused on the fact that they're not represented in boards? How can we get people focused on the fact that we're not hiring people with disabilities? How can we get them to focus on or not focus on LGBTQ issues and keep putting shiny balls in front of us when inhumanity is something that should be central for all of us? But we have a governor who pretty much said that slavery was a work training program. Joel: Yeah. Torin Ellis: That was actually said. Joel: Yep. Torin Ellis: A governor in this United States who was running for president. Joel: Not just said, but in a textbook. It wasn't just a comment. Torin Ellis: Yep. Or that they gained skills that they could use later on in life. Chad: Yeah. A work training program, yeah. So let's talk about something that... In the green room, we talked a little bit about that I think is incredibly important because you had said that, we don't need White politicians to come into Black churches and talk to us. Torin Ellis: It was a Tweet put up by Kenny Akers and he said in that post, "We don't need White politicians to come into Black churches and talk about racism. We need White politicians to go into White churches and talk about racism." Chad: Let's amplify on that. We need, and this is one of the things that you pretty much challenged Joel and I to do back in 2019 when we asked you the question, what can two White dudes actually help the DEIB? You said, speak up. But even more so, speak up in your circles. Don't just go to the NAACP local chapter and have the discussion for God's sakes. They already know that shit. Get out there and have the discussion. So I guess what I would say is, challenging everybody to do the exact same thing. Torin Ellis: Yeah. Chad: Take those beliefs beyond that of just people who have the same belief system, and get out there and have those discussions. Torin Ellis: Yeah. The truth of the matter is, that life is challenging. Building relationship, it's challenging. Everyone doesn't necessarily get along. I have people that I don't necessarily like or wish to be around or have drinks with or socialize with at networking events. And some of that is because I know who those individuals are. Some of that is I don't know who they are and I'm a bit of an introvert and I'm not willing to walk across the room and introduce myself, nor do I care if they come across and introduce themselves to me. I'm not being mean about it. It's just the way that it is. But for the most part, what it requires is that we are honest in and outside of our circles. And so yes, I do want people to have conversations around inequality and access to opportunity and shared power and resources. I want people to have those conversations at their holiday table, in their gatherings, in their community, in the car when they are carpooling. I want them to have those conversations at the water cooler when they go to Chipotle to have lunch with their colleagues. Torin Ellis: I want these conversations to be had because the bottom line is, it's not all that hard. The truth of the matter is, it's not all that hard. I've had diverse teams in every corporate space that I've been in, and my teams have always performed well. I've also had diverse teams that at some point in performance did not perform so well, whether it was they didn't get a grasp of the product, they were working on their sales pitch and trying to navigate how to reposition this new addition that we had. We go through the ebb and the flow. But for a person to have a universal theme that diversity is not good or that diversity is always good, it's something that should be challenged. We should be willing to have honest conversations point blank. I believe personally that's where the HR tech space has failed us, is that we really don't have a solid piece of business intelligence software in the HR tech space that supports the dimensions of diversity and correlates with this conversation around diverse teams are more productive and more profitable. Joel: So you mentioned Chipotle, and just for the record, don't come talking to me about anything at Chipotle 'cause there's a barbacoa burrito stuff in my mouth. [laughter] Joel: You're on the front lines of this in the perspective of the company's organizations bring you in to talk about these issues, whether it's training, education and whatnot. And what's your sense today versus last year, the year before, of company's appetites for doing this? Because my perspective is, yes, we need people to speak up, but we also need companies to sort of step up as well. You're on the ground floor of that. What's your take on company's appetite for the kind of things that you talk about in the education that you're delivering? Torin Ellis: Yeah, I appreciate the question. The appetite for me personally is increased. I grew business last year. I lost two clients. One came to the end of their mandate, another one because I opened up a conference call and used the word "shit" at the top of the call, and they didn't necessarily like that. So I ended up losing that particular client. But that's what it is. I gained business. And the reason why I feel good about that is because I have some set rules. 10 years ago, when I started working in D&I, I would have an insertion point of anyone who could get me into the organization. VP of talent. It could be a recruiting lead. It could be a hiring manager. Now, my insertion point is a little bit different. It has to be sanctioned and secured by the executive level. I can begin conversations with anyone in the organization, but if your executive team, your C-suite doesn't sign off on making this investment, then I don't do the engagement. So I have a lot of organizations where I believe they are absolutely wanting to be better. Torin Ellis: And I think, Joel, part of the reason why they want to be better is because when they engage with a person like me, yes, I am unapologetic. Yes, I am very direct. But I'm not unfair. I'm not unreasonable. I'm also not a person who takes the conversation away from business. So I talk to them about marrying the business methodology with the social imperative. I get it. People are emotionally charged and want different conversations to take place. But we are running a business. So how do we bring those two together so that all factions feel good? And in the end, Joel, I'm telling them, you can measure my efficacy by three things: Employee engagement, increases in productivity, and positive attrition. That's exactly what I say to him. Employee engagement, increase productivity, and positive attrition. Torin, what do you mean by positive attrition? I wanna be able to identify the pockets in the organization where we have incredible leaders that are historically accustomed to developing people, inspiring resourcing and supporting their people, and those individuals decide that they wanna take something else on in the organization. They don't leave, they wanna grow inside of the company. Torin Ellis: So I wanna identify those leaders in the organization, those are leaders who are for me, I am absolutely looking at, well, what's the representation numbers looking like? Because if I know that Joel is an incredible leader but he doesn't have any diversity, okay, so then let me help Joel get some more diversity on his organization, he can continue to be that incredible leader, and he will be a thrust for pushing people in the organization. How does Torin do that? If Torin's a great leader but he doesn't have any diversity or representation, how do we help him in that regard so that he can bring people in, inoculate them in his system, and help them positively grow in the organization? Three ways that we can absolutely, measure the efficacy of D&I. Joel: So my comment would be... I wasn't expecting that to be your answer, that things are improving and getting better. So my follow-up question would be, it sounds like you're confident that this isn't, I guess, a form of tokenism, just a way to say, "Hey, we are embracing this." You feel like this is real genuine change that companies wanna make from your perspective? Torin Ellis: Not feel like, I know it is. Because I signed six-figure deals. Joel: That's great. [applause] Torin Ellis: And I don't mean it as a minor flex, but I use it as an example. There is absolutely no way, when people reach out to me, "Well, Torin, can you do an engagement for 15 or 20K?" No, can't do it. Joel: Yep. Torin Ellis: I charge that much for speaking. So if you want me to actually come in to your organization and serve as a fractional or virtual chief diversity officer... Because that in many ways is what I'm doing. I'm either fractional, I'm virtual, or at the bare minimum, I'm complimentary to whatever is currently in place. If you want me to do that, then you're going to pay something similar to what you would pay a person doing this work full-time. Because I'm building it into the organization, so that when I do walk away, even in that man they... Where I use "shit" at the top of the conference call, trust me, [laughter] they are further along today than they were two years ago when they started working with me. And I'm confident in where they are today versus where they were two years ago. So you will absolutely make an investment. So to me, there is no question as to whether or not they are just box checking or if they are serious about the investment VMA. Joel: That's fucking great. Chad: The beautiful part is that you're attracting... These are the companies really that you're attracting, right? These are the ones who really want to make a change. Okay? That's not everybody. The question is, because there are a lot of companies who they just wanna step back, they don't wanna be in any political target area whatsoever, right? And you've heard a lot of the DEIB change into, "Well, let's just drop the diversity and just focus on inclusion, equity, and... " Is that a path forward? Is that a way to hopefully get away from some of these wokeism bullshit narratives, and just focus on getting shit done? Because you are dealing with a crème de la crème of companies who give a shit, right? What about all those that maybe they do, but they're afraid because they don't know what to do? What do they do? Torin Ellis: Yeah. So I will say, and I'll catch some flack for this because I've caught it in the past. Two years ago or last year, 2023, my objective when I was on stage, Chad, was to not say the phrase "diversity and inclusion." Chad: Okay. Torin Ellis: That was my team. My team said as we were doing speech prep, "Can you make it through the year, stand on stage, be the influencer that you are in this space, and not use the phrase D&I?" And I did. I was able to do it far less. It was a precipitous drop in my using that phrase. That being said, everything that I do is still focused on that theme of D&I or humanity that I mentioned in the beginning, and so I am not really a six in one hand, half-a-dozen in another. If an organization wants to change the acronym and add a J to the end, fine. If the organization wants to drop the D and only talk about inclusion and belonging, I'm fine with that. I don't care. If I genuinely know where they're coming from, their position, that's what matters to me. Torin Ellis: I think that we can get to where we need to be in terms of working with that muscle, getting that courage, being more bold and authoritative in the marketplace, being able to stand up to their geographic, regional, state-wide politicians or others that be. If we have to take a step back to be able to begin making progress, then so be it. I'm not worried about letters, I'm worried about us making progress. Chad: So is that so that you could separate yourself from the performative? Because just using the acronym doesn't mean anything. It's all about outcomes, right? We've talked about this over the years, is that there have been millions of dollars, in some cases, like Facebook, put millions of dollars into a program, they got nothing out. Right? There were no outcomes. We saw a lot of CDOs, chief diversity officers who were hired who had no resources, no staff, they could do nothing. They were pretty much just a figure head that was there, who knows what for, right? That all felt incredibly performative. Is that your way of stepping, pushing yourself away from the table and say, "This is way too performative, we've gotta focus on outcomes?" Torin Ellis: Yeah, so let me just say this to you. In March of 2019, Russell Reynolds put out a report, and I'm butchering the title of the report. It's "Finding your Next Chief Diversity Officer." And in that report... And I'm doing this purposefully, I'm not trying to get the part in any trouble, but I'm making a point. Russell Reynolds in that report said that most chief diversity officers are under-funded and under-resourced. Okay, cool. That was no surprise. What pissed me off is, organizations will continue to give that $400, $500 million retained executive search firm, diversity-related searches, they still get a pass on not providing diversity in the pipeline or under consideration. Torin Ellis: So we're talking multi-million dollar search assignments, and here we are writing a report saying that CDOs are under-resourced and under-funded, yet they are not holding themselves to a higher standard to support the diversity efforts inside of these organizations where they are taking diversity-related assignments. Not just an open rec, a diversity-related assignment. So the problem that we have is, we don't have enough accountability. We gotta have accountability with the vendors. We have to have accountability with our internal staff. And one of the things that I said is, it needs a decorative statement from a CEO, it needs a willingness of that CEO to reallocate resources, and then we need to hold people accountable. Leadership needs to be held accountable. Torin Ellis: And the bonus of that, whenever I go into an engagement, if you wanna see D&I change in your organization, all you have to do is ask every employee across the franchise, what did you do to support the CEOs a diversity initiative? And like you said, some are gonna be like, "I did this." Or someone gonna say, "I tried that." Or others are gonna say, "I didn't do anything. I didn't give a damn. I didn't care. I wanna do nothing. I don't care about it." Cool. If you care about your job, if you care about that company, your leadership, that relationship, I don't believe that people will year after year after year say that, "I didn't do anything." I believe that if you are around something long enough, you eventually, Joel, will begin to open and express your growth in that way, something that I saw you do from 2018 up until now. While you may have been a person who cared about D&I in 2015 '16, '17 and '18, and may have been silent about such or not as vocal about such, you are a totally different person now in that tenure, that tone, that amplification in 2024. Six years. Chad: We're so proud of that, yeah. [overlapping conversation] Torin Ellis: So when you are around something, you will eventually show that you care about that something. So I think that's what we're... We're missing the accountability piece. Chad: I'd say on the show, we're proud. We're proud of seeing the... Joel: I thought the growth was only in my waist line, but I appreciate that. [laughter] So I'm curious. So currently, a recently high-profile people like Elon Musk and Mark Cuban have been going back and forth on the DEI argument. Just curious, from your perspective, when you see high-profile people debating this, do you think, "What a bunch of knuckleheads looking for attention?" Or do you feel like at least there's some light being shown on this issue, and at least people are talking about it? I'm just curious of your perspective when Mark Cuban and Elon Musk go out and about this topic. Torin Ellis: Yeah, I appreciate you actually bringing that example up from a few months back. I don't look at it with a side eye, let me just say that. I tend to look at the essence of what's being exchanged and to kinda quickly determine whether or not people are genuinely doing what or saying what they... What is being said. In that case, I felt like both of them were genuine. Elon does not really support D&I, and I've gotten that both through his efforts and through friends that you and I both know that have consulted with the Tesla organization. So I know firsthand or very close to firsthand that he doesn't care. On the flip side, Mark Cuban, he had to have a couple of wake-up calls. Joel: Yeah. Torin Ellis: It took some wakeup calls for him to understand, "Wow, wait a minute, I need to do and say a bit more inside of my at least Dallas Maverick organization." So here's the deal though. In that example between Cuban and between Musk, there was this pastor on the South Side of Chicago, the pastor's name was Corey B. Brooks. And I'm gonna paraphrase what he said. He said, "It's beautiful that Mark Cuban is sticking up for D&I but the truth of the matter is that, I don't see D&I being applied to any of the young people that I'm supporting on the South Side of Chicago." Joel: Yeah. Torin Ellis: And he went on in a very long thread just simply said, "I feel like it's a hot air balloon. It's a lot of people grandstanding and talking, but they're not coming to the South Side of Chicago and working with these young people that I'm working with, to introduce them to opportunities, skill development, potential places of employment, mentor-ship, resources. They're not showing up here." So there is a flip side to the conversation. Yes, we love when the celebrities or high-flying corporate titans getting engaged in the conversation. But I also don't want us to forget the least among us where this conversation should be having some efficacy and impact. Joel: I'm gonna let you out on this. It's February, which is Black History Month. What does the month mean to you, and what would you like to say to two White guys like us in terms of how we should look at and think about Black History Month? Torin Ellis: Well, the month means everything to me because the woman who is my mother, a person who loves me, her birthday is Valentine's Day. So this is one of my favorite months of the year. It just so happens that it has some other dimensions, one of which is to include Black History Month. Listen, it's 28 days. It is what it is. I can never wake up and not acknowledge who I am and the dimensions in which I bring to this thing called life. Whether that be bad or good, whether I'm inside of a corporate quarter or sitting inside of a community, walking through a mall, relaxing in a park. I can never forget the fact that I am who I am, and I bring this with me. Sometimes that's good. Sometimes it's a laborious thought. Sometimes it's heavy. Sometimes I'm operating and moving with a bit of apprehension and fear. Torin Ellis: So what I would share to you as two White men is to just simply know that that's how it is for me. It may not be that way for other friends that you have, or whatever the case would be. I just want you two to show up and remember what I always have said: Potential minus interference equals results. When you look at the problems that we are facing, the both of you and others that are listening, when you look at the problems that we are facing, what's your potential to make a difference? Sure, you may have some interference, some roadblocks and things that are in the way. How do we get them to fuck out of the way so we can make some results? P minus I equals R. Chad: Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, this is a big shout-out to momma Ellis, by the way. Big shout-out, birthday shout-out to momma Ellis. Happy early birthday. Torin, we appreciate you coming on the show. As always, always love to having your voice around. If somebody wants to connect with you, they wanna find out what you're doing, where would you send them? Torin Ellis: @TorinEllis across all of social media, and on the web TorinEllis.com. Really simple. Joel: Love it. Chad: Love it, my man. Love it. Joel: Thank you, Torin. Chad, another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Well, thank you for listening to, what's it called? The Podcast with Chad, with Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing, just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. With so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And why you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grub cheese. It's so weird. We out!

The boys are live from TA Week in the Qualifi booth dropping more commentary from the world of work. First up, the boys cover recent updates on Google for Jobs killing off their pay-per-click (PPC) pilot with employers and agencies. Then, HireVue has a new CEO - Jeremy Friedman, bringing his tech growth expertise to the company. HireVue specializes in candidate evaluation through video interviews, boasting over 1,000 customers. In CEO updates, rumors suggest Arno Schafer is out at Vonq, the job advertising platform. Now, let's dive into tech news - ADP has launched ADP Assist, a cross-platform solution powered by generative AI, revolutionizing HR productivity. Moving on, Twitter Jobs introduces featured job ads, giving verified organizations benefits like priority posts and premium support. Now, from Japan, Indeed Plus is automating job matching by distributing postings on various job boards within Recruit Holdings. Lastly, UPS is cutting 12,000 jobs, saving approximately $1 billion after a 31.8% drop in quarterly profit. UPS CEO Carol Tomé announces the end of the hybrid work schedule, requiring employees to return to the office five days a week. Plus, over 10,000 autoworkers from non-union companies have signed union cards with the UAW. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. Two guys who don't mind a little flying Dutchman on their plates and in their bellies. What's up kids? Chad: Amen. Joel: You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel "Animal-Style" Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad "Now I know what a flying Dutchman actually is" Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, Google doesn't want your budget. Twitter needs your budget and Indeed is apparently losing your budget. Let's do this. SFX: Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast. Joel: Just one of the hiccups... Chad: Things happen. Joel: That you get on a live show. It's all good. It's all good. It's all good. We restarted because we forgot to push to record. Chad: Yeah. We being me. Joel: Yeah, I was being nice. I was... Chad: I haven't had enough beer apparently. Joel: I got your back. Chad: Fuck. Joel: I got your back on that one. Chad: Thank you. Thank you. Joel: All right. All right, kids. Well, we are here live at TA week, and we are just having a great time here in the Qualified booth. The Qualified team based in Indie, like us, great startup story. Went to the zoo on Monday, saw koala bears, saw giraffes, saw elephants, all the things that you see at a zoo. Chad: But what you want to see at the zoo is you want to see your friends and you want to create content because it's all fun. It's all rich. Joel: Lots of content. Chad: And you want to be close to a bar. Joel: Yes. Chad: We had all this. We had all this. Joel: Mitch a lotta miracles were flowing. Chad: Mitch a lotta miracles. Joel: The zoo this week. Also, Chad, you see the magic of procreation at the zoo sometimes. [laughter] And we were lucky enough to see what we dubbed the banging wallabies, making more wallabies apparently. And we figured out that in our next life we're going to start a band called The Banging Wallabies, and we're going to hope to open up for the NXS reunion tour at sometime in the future. So that was great fun. What else have we done here in sunny San Diego? Chad: Well, once again with the Qualifi crew, and if you are watching on YouTube, you can see, not to mention all the alcohol that we have available, which is why we're doing this for a second time. Joel: We are lubricated. Yes, we are... Chad: Jesus Christ. Yes. No, we had a great, the first night zoo, went out to eat, had some gummies. Joel: Tio Leo's, if you're in San Diego, hit up Tio Leo's. Chad: Oh yes. If you like lounge singers. Oh, we're talking about top shelf lounge singers. Great food. Have a gummy while you're at it because it's good. Joel: And everyone gets their own little thing of salsa, which I appreciate. Chad: I do. Yes. Joel: I think I got yours at some point and maybe someone else's. Chad: I had no clue what was going on. Joel: [laughter] Yeah. You were in a state that would make Euro Chad look like a depressed patient in a mental institution. Man, you were... Chad: I was very Happy. Joel: You were walking on sunshine, my friend. Chad: I was, I was. Joel: Walking on sunshine. Chad: Then, then we were here. We did some interviews yesterday. Had a great day at TA week, I got to say. And you mentioned earlier, the food here is amazing. Okay. For conference food. Joel: The conference food, yeah. Chad: For conference food, this was above par, way above par. It wasn't a boxed lunch, it was nothing... It was really, it was good stuff. And the experience has been great too. It's not incredibly big. Joel: It's intimate. Chad: It's the right size. It's the right size. Joel: It's the right size, just like we like it. Yeah. Yeah. The lunches are a big thing for me. I say no to the croissant which if I can, it's never something on my list. I try to make it up for it with a bag of chips that usually come with it, but typically, typically, no. Chad: But you know what else is good? A good VIP sit down dinner where you sit down, you've got the Bourguignon. Joel: Steak, potatoes were brought in. Chad: [chuckle] And you've got the Merlot. You know what we did? We didn't do that. Joel: No. Chad: We did the In-N-Out Burger. Nice. Which is so on fucking brand, and I can't believe we hadn't thought about it earlier, but our friend Evan White and CollabWORK... Joel: CollabWORK Summer. Chad: They put it together and they're like, what would Chad and Cheese do? That we're going to get wristbands. What would Chad and Cheese do? Yes. Joel: That's a real homage to the show. What would Chad and Cheese do? Chad: So this is where we found out what the Flying Dutchman is. Now, the In-N-Out Burger has a secret menu. Your favorite secret menu is? Joel: My Off the menu would be the Double Double Chopped Peppers, protein style fries well done, Animal Style you can take it or to leave it. Chad: Okay. Okay. Joel: And that's my go-to. Chad: Okay. That sounds like a lot. Joel: I didn't know the Flying Dutchman existed. Chad: I didn't either until Omar, our buddy from Jar Pixel actually messaged me. He sent me a TikTok and showed me how they actually cook the burger in mustard, wrap it in cheese, and then put it around what goes around it. Not a bread bun. No. An onion. A cooked onion, caramelized goodness was delicious. I loved it. A little oniony for you. Joel: A little too much onion for me. My palate's are a little sensitive for that. Too much whiskey, I guess. But yeah. That was... Chad: That was great. Joel: A great time. Big thanks to CollabWORK. I did mention that if there is a hell for me, there was a Chipotle on the opposite corner of In-N-Out, and I said, "If there's a hell, I'm stuck in the center and I can't move. I just have to look at In-N-Out and Chipotle." Chad: There was a Del Taco next door. Joel: Del Taco and a Jersey Mike's at some point. So either my heaven or my hell, depending on how mobile I am. But yeah, that was some San Diego goodness in the QSR category, I love it. Chad: Day 2 we're back doing interviews, having a good time. Tonight we'll go do dinner. I mean, it's been... Joel: Yeah, bonfire last night. Chad: Oh yeah, bonfire. Joel: What's more California than a beach bonfire? Chad: On the beach with beers and weed? I mean, it's just like you just can't get away from the weed. Joel: Yeah. The kids on bikes and skateboards is very California. It's sun setting in the background. Very, very, very nice. Chad: Amazing. Amazing. Joel: Well, almost as good as a bonfire on the beach in San Diego is free stuff from Chad and Cheese. Kids, if you haven't gone out to chadcheese.com, click the free link. We're talking shirts from our friends at JobGet, soon to be a new sponsor, by the way, Chad. Chad: What? Joel: We'll announce that soon, I think. Chad: Oh, damn. Joel: Aspen Tech Labs is giving away free beer if it's your birthday month. Rum from our friends at Plum could be in your hands. And of course, a bourbon selection from both you and me sponsored by TextKernel. That to me is just manna from heaven. If you can get a Blockbuster style Chad selection and a Cheese selection in your... [laughter] Joel: In your bar, you are a happy happy, person. Chad: It's like The manager selection at the Blockbuster. Joel: Totally. Chad: Yeah. No, totally is. So I've got some breaking news real quick for events. Joel: Okay. Chad: Are you ready? Joel: Hit it. Chad: So Jamie Leonard reached out. Thanks, Jamie. Appreciate it my man. Joel: Can you say Jamie Leonard in a British accent? Chad: No. Joel: No. Okay. Chad: I can't say anything in a British accent. So September 12th and 13th. That's right. Two days kids, confirmed for Bicentennial Park in Nashville. Yes. We're going back to Nashville. Joel: NashVegas baby. Chad: Fucking Nashville. Anywhere from 2000 to 2,500 TA pros. And you gotta remember, this is an entirely different animal from all the other events. Joel: Sure. Chad: Good, bad, or indifferent. Doesn't matter. This one is really attuned to have teams have your all-day event there, right? Joel: Yep. Chad: You have your bonding, your team building event. You need an easy button for that? It's called RecFest. Joel: Yep. Chad: Not to mention Nashville. I mean, come on. Joel: And there's Nashville after the show. Chad: Yes. Joel: And you and I, I don't know. We tied one on last year. We had a party. We had a bookend of parties before and after. Chad: Yes, yes. Joel: We'll try to replicate that. I think that you and I should both be considering our karaoke song of choice. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Joel: For those that know or don't know, your choice this past conference was... Chad: Michelle from Palm and I we're gonna have to retool. Yeah. We did B-52s. We did Love, Shaq. We're gonna have to see what the next is in line. Joel: You're gonna do another duo? Another duet. Chad: I think we have to. I think we have to. I think we owe the people. [laughter] Joel: You owe the people. You owe the people. Well, I went with the Vanilla Ice. Chad: Yes. Ice Ice Baby, yeah. Joel: Ice Ice Baby. So, that's gonna be hard to top. I kind of brought the house down with that one 'cause no one, no one Running Man's like a... Chad: Say you do Informer. Joel: Oh, snow. Chad: Yes. Joel: 12 inches of cheese. That'll be the extras. Oh, boy. Yeah. So that's exciting. September. We have a full packed tour this year. And it's just getting fatter and fatter. Chad: Good times. Joel: As we go through the show. So we're gonna skip birthdays. Chad: Okay. Joel: We'll make up for that. We're gonna skip future travel, I think February we're off so we get some time to kind of catch our breath. Chad: Yeah, I believe so. Joel: And then March is full on, skip some of our extra shows. Do make sure to go to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/@ChadCheese for all of our video goodness. Some shows exclusively on YouTube. But let's get to topic. SFX: Topics Joel: Google for Jobs news. Chad: Yes. Joel: Now, you and I have been predicting for a while that Google was going to offer a pay-per-click solution, which makes perfect sense. They've got the engine built, they've got the market understanding what all that is. Chad: It's what they do. Joel: It's a switch to say, hey, we got these job postings. Hey, you want better exposure? You wanna be on the top of the list? Pay us per-per-click. And it's, it's magic happens. Chad: Seems like easy money. Joel: Well, timeout. Chad: What? Joel: You have multiple sources now telling you that the pay-per-click pilot program that was launched last year, has alerted people that the pay-per-click solution is now dead and buried. What do you have to add on that news item? Chad: This just makes so much sense. It's what Google does. Everything else that they were doing in the jobs space and ATS I mean, different types of APIs and whatnot, none of that shit made sense but this just made fucking sense. And then guess what? It doesn't matter if it made sense or not. They've been having issues with regard to being able, obviously reporting back to the market. They've seen some drops, I think 6% drop. All I can say is more than likely they said, okay, enough of that playing around shit over there on the job side. Leave the job thing rolling. But we need those engineers. We need those project people over on areas and projects we know are currently making money and can make more money. Joel: Yep. Little surprise from market perspective. Google, obviously, clicks are down. This to me was an easy sort of billion dollar ad. Chad: I thought so. Yeah. Joel: To the bottom line. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That they could easily do. Chad: Totally wrong. Joel: However, similar to Facebook a couple years ago saying, Hey, we're gonna commit everything to the metaverse. Of course they pivot off of that, but at the time they closed down their jobs offering to send all hands on deck to build a Metaverse platform. To me this is very similar in that, look. OpenAI is a threat, AI is a threat. It's everywhere. We need all hands on deck to focus on that. They've had multiple rounds of layoffs. Chad: Yep. Joel: Which means they're a little shorthanded. So from that perspective, it makes sense that they would focus more on the future than classified ads and making those monetizable. Chad: And shoutout to Job Board Doctor who actually said, "I don't see this happening." I mean, and again, that was a smart call. I have no fucking clue how he called it. But at the end of the day, this is what Google does. They do clicks. They do pay-per-click. They do. I mean, this is just what they do. Joel: Yeah. Chad: And they're not going to do what they do. Joel: Yeah. So there you go. There you go. Yeah. Chad: Interesting, interesting. Joel: But man, that is a happy dance moment for Indeed, ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn and many others who I'm sure have been fearing the inevitable pay-per-click solution from Google. So, yeah. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Shoutout to them for a little bit of relief on that front. Well, who won't be getting any relief are a couple companies that are inviting new CEOs and also saying goodbye to a CEO. HireVue has appointed Jeremy Friedman as their new CEO. He'll succeed Anthony Reynolds. Friedman, former CEO of Schoology brings expertise in tech growth. That's... Chad: Schoology. Schoology. Joel: Per the company. Schoology is how I read that. Schoology. Chad: It's okay. Yeah. We're gonna need... Joel: Okay. It case you missed it, HireVue specializes in evaluating candidates and matching skills to jobs through video interviews. They tout a thousand plus customers. And in other CEO news, we're saying goodbye to one. Rumor has it that Arno Schaefer is out at VONQ. He didn't get the shot apparently after serving in that role since 2021. If you don't know, VONQ is a job advertising and distribution platform as well as a recruitment marketing service. Chad, your thoughts on all things CEO this week? Chad: Yeah, Let's go ahead and hit Jeremy up real quick. I mean, this is a guy who has no experience in this space. If you know Schoology or Schoology or whatever. Joel: Schoology. Chad: Whatever the hell they call it. They're a part of the PowerSchool platform, actually. And PowerSchool always felt like, to me, because I used it with my kids to be able to talk back and forth, communicate with teachers and look at grades and all that stuff. It always felt like an early 2000s platform that was built just for the basics. Joel: Oh, it's built for Windows 95. It still is. Chad: Yes, just for the basics. And in one of the quotes that Jeremy actually said in the article, it might have been TechCrunch, I think, he thinks that there are easy parallels between education and HR. Joel: Sure. Chad: And just, that is the most naive bullshit I think I've ever... And I hope Jeremy does well. I really do. But here's the thing, kids. When we see these CEOs come into our industry who have no fucking clue what we actually do, it's really disturbing, right? And then you've got to ask yourself where they were in the draft. Right? Joel: Yeah. How many stars did they get in their ESPN analysis? Yeah, to me, this says, this is a crappy industry to be a CEO. These are not the A-teamers that are ready to go public, that are ready to be acquired. These are like the bottom of the barrel CEOs. And we looked at iSIMS. Okay, it may be a little mean, but my point is that these are not blue chip CEOs that are taking these jobs, which at a different time, there were more sort of top notch. Chad: Steve Lucas at iSIMS. I mean, that was fucking, that was... Joel: Yeah, they have track records of taking companies public or cashing out sort of big deals. The new iSIMS CEO, the new HireVue CEO, these are companies that should be prime for IPOs. These are companies that should be big acquisitions for really big fish. And these CEOs just do not instill a lot of confidence in me that that is their future. It feels more like, let's try to get to a point where we can get a top notch CEO. So I think it's just I hope that he's successful and we never, I don't think we ever, maybe some companies we hope they fail, but most of the time we want everyone to be successful. So, but this does not instill confidence in me as someone who's been around the block a few times. The more interesting story to me is the VONQ, the VONQ news. Chad: And we got a shot for that. So we're good. Joel: We did get a shot for that twice my sophomore year. And we talk a lot, particularly on the European show of how difficult it is to go from Europe, have a successful business in Germany, Denmark, wherever, and then say, we're just going to replicate that in America. And when VONQ came to our shores, they put together an incredibly solid team of veterans, guys that we've known for a long time. It was a very impressive start. I know that they had nailed down a few really solid partners and it collapsed very quickly. People left and we don't know all the intricacies of that, but it clearly underscores how tough it is to have something successful in Europe and then just stamp it in America. Even if you pay for the talent to make it work here. Chad: I think unfortunately the Dutch just weren't patient enough. So you get a Star-Spangled banner fucking crew over here in the US and they start kicking ass, building infrastructure, taking names. Then they start falling off the face of the earth and leaving because overall, they weren't patient enough to understand that trying to penetrate the United States is not going to happen over fucking night. Now, some of the partnerships that they had, to me, happened overnight. Were they generating revenue? Probably not where they needed to, but guess what? That shit takes fucking time. Education, especially market education, so much. They also dropped the ball with Indeed at one time where they stopped the distribution to Indeed because Indeed cut them off. Joel: Yeah. Probably too many eggs in that basket as well. Chad: Unfortunately, again, Arno not from this industry, right? He was a PE guy, so pretty much put in there to just man the ship and unfortunately, didn't have the patience to allow the professionals to do their fucking job. So right now I think what they should do is do one of two things. They either allocate the resources to do what they were originally going to do in the US and have patience or get the fuck out. You can only do one. You can't half ass this and they've been half assing it for at least a year now. Joel: Yeah, I think it's an interesting textbook case of do you bring Europeans over to America to manage things or do you hire Americans to coordinate with the Europeans? And there's obviously some loss in translation. There's challenges there on both sides, but it's not just putting the product in America and it works. There's the culture, there's the team, there's so many things that go into it. Chad: It's the same thing going to Europe. You can't have Americans going into Europe and thinking that that shit's going to work either. You've got to go native, okay? It's all there is to it. If you're going into Germany, you better have a German team. If you're going into the US, you better have a US team. And unfortunately, again, I think a lot of it has to do with patience and they just didn't have it. Either that or their burn rate was way too fucking high. They couldn't have the patience. Joel: Well, from my understanding, the European business is still pretty healthy. Do we know anything about a new CEO or an interim CEO at this point? Chad: So from my understanding and from messaging back and forth with the VONQ team, again, guys, I hope you get healthy and I hope you get your shit together man, 'cause I wanna see more competition in this market. But Bill Fischer, who literally, he's been working more like a CMO, 'cause he's been putting a lot of good shit out and he's incredibly smart. Joel: Yeah, he's been around. Chad: He's the CTO, okay. So a CTO to be good at marketing, that shit never happens. So they've got a fucking unicorn there. He's gonna head the ship until they actually put a person in place. What I would say is put Bill in fucking place, okay. The dude is a fucking veteran. Put him in place. Put Bill in place and give him some fucking rope. Joel: And hopefully he doesn't hang himself. Chad: Hang himself. Joel: All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about Twitter and Indeed. Imagine that. Chad: And we're on. Joel: And in case you missed it, we are back live at TA Week in beautiful San Diego recording from the Qualifi booth. Alright Chad, we've got some news from big industry players to all kind of rapid fire and sound off on. So ADP has launched ADP Assist, that's creative. A cross-platform solution powered by, you guessed it, generative AI. Enhancing HR productivity and decision-making. It uses ADP's extensive data set to provide actionable insights in various HR aspects and is currently in early release with a planned rollout for all clients this year. ADP Assist validates payroll, simplifies smart analytics, and offers human insights with an AI-based conversational interface. That's all per ADP. Chad, your thoughts on ADP Assist? Chad: Big shoutout to Jason in PR over at ADP. I appreciate you pushing this to me early, my friend. So we've talked about ADP in, with respect to generative AI, but it wasn't about having generative AI. Everybody's gonna fucking have it. Joel: Yep. Chad: ADP probably, let me think, no, more than likely has the biggest fucking data lake, data ocean that any of the systems that we know of that are out there. Joel: Outside the government. Chad: Yes. If they wanted to use, and they've got more up-to-date data than the government, it's very fast. If they wanted to utilize generative AI to help solve pay inequality, that would be the system to do it. That would be the system. If you were SENDIA right now, you would be working with them to be able to actually tap into that, right? What about learning and development? You know skills in the market, you know what's rising, you know what's falling, you know what kind of learning development kind of content to be able to serve up. ADP is doing that to, I mean, millions, millions of people, right? This to me is probably, and again, this press release was very fluffy and kind of like it wasn't... Didn't really have any... Joel: Sure. Very biased. Chad: But at the end of the day, as they dig into this, 'cause they had to put out a press release, I guarantee you, just 'cause everybody else is, but we've talked about this before. The secret sauce to all of this LLM is data. Nobody has more. Nobody has more. Joel: Yeah, I don't have much more to add to that. Everyone's going to do this. It depends on what you feed the beast that makes it powerful or not, and ADP for sure has a formidable set of data. My question would be, is this a potential new revenue stream for them to have an API where they can feed an ecosystem of this data and what they're finding out to then feed startups or feed solutions that we talk about regularly on the show? I think this could be a whole new business opportunity for them to unleash AI and their data. Did I say unleash? Sorry. Chad: Unleash. I love it. That's good. That was good. That's good. Joel: Don't be too hyperbolic there, but yeah, I think this is an incredible opportunity. We typically do not see this kind of innovation from a company like ADP. It's a huge Titanic and turning that and doing things. It took them forever to have a marketplace. It's taken them forever to do so much. So I think this is really inspiring and the leadership team should be applauded by having this. My question will be, do they take it to another step and help power all the startups and companies that could utilize their data in a unique way with generative AI? Chad: Yeah. So from my insights and what I know, they're going to go big on this, right? This is literally just the surface. They're scratching the surface and because they realize much like our dumbasses realize that the secret sauce is data and nobody has more data than they do. So whether they have a marketplace with APIs or what have you, I think at the end of the day, if they just solely focus on the fragments of data that they can crunch with generative AI, they're gonna be able to come up with product after product after a data point for the government. Joel: Sure. Chad: They're gonna be able to do things that nobody else can. Joel: Yeah. Very impressive. Very impressive. All right. From ADP to your favorite company, let's talk about X. Chad: X. That's Twitter. That's twitter. Joel: Well, yeah. Twitter, X, whatever. I don't know. Friend of the podcast, Alex Joukowsky has an update on X- jobs. They apparently introduced featured job ads. This feature launched on January 26th. Display sponsored jobs at the top of the search results with a blue featured icon. Verified organizations get benefits like a verified badge, priority posts, premium support and monitoring per impersonation. Very innovative, right, Chad? What are your thoughts? Chad: As stupid as shit. We've talked about this and they were talking about rolling this out months ago. This is fucking stupid. Nobody, nobody. Listen, listen, nobody is going to manage their fucking jobs on Twitter. They're not. You know why, 'cause they don't have time. As we talk about talent acquisition, we talk about recruiters, we talk about all the way down. Nobody has enough time. They've got enough administrative bullshit they have to deal with and yet you want them to go into their list of thousands of fucking jobs and say, this is featured and that, fuck off. This is the stupidest shit. It's stupid, man. And again, this demonstrates that a dude that obviously who can sell companies, Lasky, the CEO of Lasky, is throwing out shit to hit 1990s version job board shit. It's horrible. Joel: While I agree with you, we're also here at a conference that sessions are being highlighted that are still talking about pay-per-click advertising on Google. Chad: No, you're right. I agree. Joel: Something that I remember doing 20 years ago. So if you're categorizing this buying audience as it's got to be innovative or else I'm not buying it, it may be smart to go back to 1999 with your strategy. It may be smart... Chad: But they can't manage it. But they can't manage it. Joel: To keep it simple for the people. The challenge is this is never gonna go enterprise. This is never gonna go big scale. Chad: It can't. It can't. Joel: This is your Y Combinator companies. This is the startup that's gonna be like, oh, we can be on X. That's who this appeals to. There's no way at its current iteration that's gonna be big enterprise companies, marketing departments won't touch X, their job departments aren't going to touch it either. I say they, it's fine. It's low-hanging fruit. They'll get some money from it. Nowhere near the 44 billion that they need. I think in our time here at the conference, their time is much better utilized by going against LinkedIn. There's a lot of animus against LinkedIn at this conference. Chad: There is. There is. Joel: A lot of people want choices, want something else. And if nothing else, at least maybe they'll push in LinkedIn to be more innovative by creating products that might threaten them because LinkedIn is fat, happy and just printing money based on its current iteration. But no, in the same podcast we have Google for Jobs is not doing pay-per-click. But X is giving you sponsored jobs. I think it's a lose-lose for the industry. Chad: Oh, God. Joel: And for most employers out there. Chad: It's horrible. It's horrible. Joel: Well, from X, let's go to Indeed. So sign of things to come possibly. Chad: I know that dude. Joel: Indeed Japan has introduced Indeed Plus, an AI powered tool to expedite job matching by automatically distributing job postings on various job boards within its parent company Recruit Holdings, also known as programmatic advertising. I believe employers can connect with recruit's AirWORK Applicant Tracking System or Indeed for automatic postings and charges are based on a pay-per-click model. Yes. You guessed it. Indeed Plus aims to diversify collaborations with job boards outside of recruit group in the future, hoping to enhance job seeking and recruiting efficiency in Japan, possibly elsewhere in the near future. Chad, what are your thoughts on Indeed Plus? Chad: Back to the future, kids. It's funny because back in my direct employer days, we actually had like over 3000 different distribution points, meaning job sites. And we would get jobs directly from corporate career sites and we would own net, code them, classify them, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Because what we did was we did dynamic distribution of jobs that were just relevant to those sites. These guys, what, three sites that they're doing this with? Joel: Well, it's a small, it's a rollout that will take some time, Chad. Chad: It's a rollout. It's a rollout. But I mean, this is 2008 shit, Twitter, this, it's all 2008 shit. Joel: Sure. We talked about this with their tech group. Chad: We just talked ADP with generative AI and we're talking about this. Joel: Imagine that. Yeah. The Titanic and the... Chad: Fuck. Joel: Aircraft carrier is doing innovation that the smaller guys aren't. So we talked about Indeed launching their tech network. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I've already heard rumblings about healthcare being piloted or starting. Their salespeople are starting to talk about. The whole network are jobs on other platforms and sites, destination sites, et cetera. It is a very old strategy. To me it's an indication of what Google and the four apocalypse, the four horsemen, the apocalypse as you know. Chad: Horsemen, the horsemen. Joel: Are stressing the business that is Indeed. And this is another way I think, is the traffic really gonna matter? I doubt it. Can they sell something new? Yes. So if I'm a salesperson, I'm on the horn with technical companies talking about our tech network. If I'm selling healthcare, I'm saying, "Hey, we're launching a health network." And these companies will pay money, they'll pay, the check will get bigger. It's like a price increase at Netflix, people are just gonna pay it. [laughter] And this thing that launched in Japan is gonna launch in America at some point. They'll just have these sites and people will, they'll bump up their spend and Indeed will make more money at the easiest way possible. No innovation. Let's just have like this smokescreen of innovation and new networks and new exposure for your jobs. And it's all a bunch of bullshit, but it has been very effective in the past and it will probably be very effective to Indeed's bottom line going into the future, in no small part to Indeed saying no to pay-per-click advertising. Maybe there was a secret deal by Indeed that said, look, we'll spend so much money on Google ads if you just not launch a pay-per-click solution. That's a conspiracy theory. I have no information on that. I need a refill. Let's take a quick break and we'll talk about some union news. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Alright, gang, we are back. We are here live from the TA week conference in sunny San Diego, California, podcasting from the Qualifi booth right here in the expo hall. We've got beers, we've got whiskey, and we're coming to the end of our show. Hopefully we can still make it. Chad: Woo. God. I hope so. Joel: Got to. Chad: It's about time for a gummy. Joel: I need something. I need a Flying Dutchman or something to get me through. Alright. Some union news to talk about, United Parcel Service, popularly known as UPS, Chad, is set to cut 12,000 jobs affecting 14% of its 85,000 full and part-time managers. The move comes after a 31.8% drop in quarterly profit and rising costs from the company's contract with the Teamsters Union, which we talked about at length last year. The layoffs are expected to save UPS approximately $1 billion. Additionally, UPS CEO, Carol Tome, I don't know if she's related to Marissa Tomei or not, different spelling, so probably not announced the end of the hybrid work schedule. That's right. She's requiring employees to return to the office, not four, not three, but five days a week starting in March. This is a double, double trouble news item for a lot of workers at UPS. Chad, what are your thoughts on the news? Chad: Marissa's older sister, she makes about $19 million in total of compensation a year. And this is happening, number one. Number two, we saw Shawn Fain not just get behind Biden last week, but also sign 10,000 new members into the UAW. This, to me, this is easy. If I'm Shawn Fain, UAW expands. Joel: Yep. Chad: And goes right into UPS. I mean, this is finally a time where the narrative of the working class is starting to rise and it's not being beat down. If you talk about Tome's $19 million a year and all these guys who are now out of work, you're gonna receive amazing favor and the next thing you know, you have a UAW or whatever version shop that happens in UPS. There are expansion opportunities with UAW. Shawn Fain is the man to do it. I'm a lover. I love that dude. Joel: Somewhere Jimmy Hoffa is smiling in his grave over the Shawn Fain. Chad: Anyway, it's, to me, it just makes sense. The stars are starting to align and Tome doing these things and other CEOs doing these things, they're not paying attention to the market and what the fuck's going on. Joel: So, some context around Chad's news on the autoworkers. So, over 10,000 autoworkers from 13 non-union companies have signed union cards with the UAW, signaling a growing movement for improved wages, benefits and workplace rights in the auto industry. Following the UAW's success, stand up striked at Ford, GM and Stellantis. Non-union autoworkers are organizing unions across the industry with workers at Volkswagen and Mercedes, to name a few, leading the campaigns. The UPS news is really unfortunate because last year we talked about their union having a victory, in terms of wages, benefits, and things going on. We recently talked to Kevin Wheeler, obviously, an old timer in this industry that's seen a few things. His comment has really resonated with me that unions that are winning these cases are on a five-year parole, I think was his comment. Chad: Short term. Short term. Yeah. Joel: So, companies are buying time. Enjoy the money while you can until we automate you and get to cut you. And we're starting to see some of that potentially with UPS making the deal and then taking a counter punch and saying, we're going to lay off 14%. Chad: We're in January. They made that deal last year when they needed those motherfuckers in the seats. It's gonna come back around full circle. They're going to need people back in the seats again. Joel: Yeah. I mean, there's nothing that says self-driving cars and trucks are coming. There's nothing saying... Now, maybe the packages and managing those can be more automated, but drones aren't gonna fly and give you packages anytime soon. Chad: No. Joel: So, this is a really interesting new story. I don't know if it's... I mean, to save a billion dollars on this is pretty significant. I believe the stock benefited from the news, which makes Marissa Tomei's sister very happy. Shawn Fain again, just amazing what he's doing. Chad: Even if he goes arm-in-arm with Teamsters. Joel: Yeah. To get UPS into the battle with the car companies and who else can join this fight is significant. And we talked, we interviewed recently where having a union was like the only sort of strength that the workforce had to make changes. So, you and I continue to root for the unions. The UPS news is definitely depressing on that front, but the UAW news is definitely inspiring. This is a push and pull between capital and labor, and we'll see who wins at the end of the day. Chad: Without labor, you don't have capital. Joel: We don't know who's gonna win, but we do know, Chad, that you and I continue to win because we've got a cooler full of beer and a bottle full of bourbon, my friends. Live from TA week, the Qualifi booth, Chad. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Chase podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch Big Booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful trainwreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

It's a Chad-less week, as Serge Boudreau of The Recruitment Flex podcast fills in. We've got some follow-up from last week's show: Google unexpectedly shut down its job-advertising test due to performance issues, leaving speculation about staffing cuts and competing priorities. In other news, Appcast analysis shows an increase in clicks and applies per job posting in 2023, but the median cost per click fell. Moving on, Fora, an Executive Relationship Management platform, has launched with $3.8 million in pre-seed funding. Featuring industry veterans like Joe Essenfeld and Susan Vitale, Fora aims to revolutionize decision-making for executives with tailored AI technology. Lyft is making waves in the U.S. ride-hailing industry with weekly earnings guarantees for drivers, aiming to attract more to its platform amidst competition with Uber. Starship Technologies has secured $90 million to expand sidewalk delivery robot operations, while the NYPD ends its AI-driven security robot deployment in Times Square. And guess who's back? NYPD's K9 robot Digidog returns to service. Lastly, Apple's Vision Pro VR headset disappoints buyers as it blocks access to VR porn. Despite anticipation, users can't access explicit content, sparking frustration on social media and Reddit. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with the breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah, because you can't spell NAFTA without T and A. What's up kids? You are listening to The Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Putin Cheeseman. Serge: And I'm Serge The Raging Acadian Boudreau. Joel: And on this episode, Google pulls out, Lyft puts out, and Apple wants to sell you a $3,500 chastity belt. Let's do this. [music] Joel: You're not Chad. You're not Chad. Serge: I'm way better looking. Way better looking, and I have hair. Joel: You hair and a great pair of glasses. Yeah. You're... This feels way too familiar almost to me, almost to me. So... Serge: But does it? Joel: So yes, for those listening, we have a stand-in for Chad. Chad is getting shoulder surgery. He's worked it too much in his lifetime. I won't go into how that happened, but Serge Boudreau from the Recruitment Flex Podcast has graced us with his presence. Serge, for those that don't know you or the Flex, like give them a quick little synopsis. Serge: Yeah, so well, thanks for having me on, and yes, my name is Serge Boudreau, I am the co-host of the Recruitment Flex with Shelley. Shelley is really the brains and the power behind this podcast, but I'm here, you know I'm joining. So a little bit about me. I am a girl dad, three daughters, including two identical twins, and I'm also the vice president at a Canadian company called CareerBeacon. Joel: Did you say Canadian? SFX: Take off will ya we're doin' our movie! Don't wreck our show, you hoser! Joel: That's right. That's right. So... Serge: That's right. Well, you're Canadian too, Joel. Like you married into Canada. Joel: Only the nice parts are Canadian. Only the nice parts. Yeah, I have learned more about Canada and your wonderful country than I ever thought that I ever would. Yeah, Strange Brew was basically... And the occasional hockey playoff game, I'd say, and CFL. I'm old enough to remember when ESPN had CFL games on a regular basis and didn't have NFL. Serge: Really? Joel: So The Argonauts and... Yeah, I remember watching that way back, way back. But the Recruitment Flex, if they haven't listened, what can they expect to get from that? Serge: So we've been doing the Recruitment Flex over 300 episodes right now, and the focus is really on the practitioner, someone that is doing the job on a daily basis. We do a little bit of industry, but industry knowledge, this is the podcast The Chad & Cheese, we're for the practitioners with a little bit of industry stuff just blended in. Joel: I gotta ask about the name. How did you get... Like flex, I think a weight lifter, I think like tough guys and Shelley's everybody's mom. So she's like the least flex that I... She's not flex at all, and I know you personally, I'm guessing you're like 165, all wet. So Recruitment Flex, well, how did that come about? Serge: You know what our first title or the first one we came up, it was actually called Slain Recruitment, and I did not know what slain meant until I started running that title with people younger and I'm like... And they lost their shit. They laughed at it, so we decided to move to the Flex and it was just like we tried 100 different names, and it's just flexing your recruitment knowledge, that was what's behind the name, and even though 165 is actually generous Joel, I do have quite the biceps when I flex, so I think it goes pretty well with myself. Joel: Is that right? Ooh, okay. Serge: That is right. Joel: You wouldn't notice it with the eight layers of Canadian winter clothing that you're sporting now, so I'll have to take your word for it. Serge: Fair enough. Joel: Now, some of our listeners, they're gonna miss Chad. They're not gonna like appreciate that he's not on, but you have been kind enough to do like a 12-second synopsis of what Chad is like on a weekly basis for those listeners that are gonna miss Chad, like why don't you hit them with that and we can get on with the show. Serge: Sounds good. Elon Musk is a douche, indeed is devil. Everyone should join the union, even the robots. And something about Josh Bersin. Did I, did I get it? Joel: I think you nailed it my friend. I think you... We could just stop recording now, I think for most of our people, however, gotta do a show because we have this thing called the sponsor, so let's get to something that we call shout-outs. Now, you are my guest, so I'm going to let you go first in the shout-outs. Serge: You know what? I'm gonna start a shout-out from, for Joel Cheeseman yourself. Joel: You can't brown-nose me that fast on the show, my friend. Serge: No, I'm not brown-nosing you. Joel: Okay. Serge: Wait. Listen here. So we recently did a listener survey on the Recruitment Flex podcast, and I personally got some really interesting feedback, and here is some of it. "Whenever Serge talks, I feel IQ points leaving my body." [laughter] Serge: "Chad and Cheese are the shit. Have them on more. Also, hockey isn't a real sport." The next one, "Dump Serge, free Shelley." Then you had to add the. Uh. So I had to do some investigative reporting here and pretty sure that was you Joel. And I'll tell you... Joel: What? Serge: When I first saw it, it really hurt my feelings. I think I started crying, but then I figured out who it was. So first shout-out to Joel Cheeseman. I appreciate the feedback. Although it's... Joel: I love it. I love it. Serge: It's bullying, man. It's bullying. Joel: If you only knew how many drams of scotch I had before filling that out. I had some good fun. It was during the holidays, right? It was kind of holiday... Serge: It was, yeah. Joel: End of your thing. Okay. Yeah. I had fun with that. All right. My first shout-out goes to podcasts, oddly enough. It was a good week for podcasts. I don't know if you saw the news. So a quick rundown, Spotify has crossed the 600 million active user mark, and they were the first to kind of really dig into exclusive podcast and getting people onboard, which leads me to my next little news item. Joe Rogan regards to how you feel about him politically, and I know that Canadians have pretty strong opinions about politics, the guy can certainly market a podcast, and Spotify has upped his contract to $250 million. Not to be outdone, the SmartLess Crew, which features at least one Canadian, Will Arnett and probably one honorary Canadian, at least one other that's around that show. I don't listen a SmartLess. Do you? Serge: No. I've listened to it once, but no. I am a fan of Joe Rogan. I definitely... Joel: Yeah. Serge: I grew up with Howard Stern. Howard Stern is really hard to listen to now. Joe Rogan, there is some episodes that are great, some are not, but I gotta give him kudos. He's giving this podcast industry... Joel: Yeah. Well, I... Serge: A massive boost. Joel: I hope he's sending you a check, 'cause he's getting a really big one for the people who listen to the show. Anyway, the SmartLess guys SiriusXM, which I didn't even know is still a thing, although my last new car was in 2017, so how would I know, but they're giving those guys a three-year deal, I believe at $100 million. So podcasts are having a great week, and I think it's obviously good for the industry as a whole. We have sponsors, of course, as do you. I have strong opinions as to why podcasts are a great choice to sponsor. With us, both of us, I think it's not about the numbers. We're not selling Casper mattresses, we're selling trust, we're selling our expertise and not doing business and sponsorship deals with hacks and fly-by night software companies, and I think our listeners appreciate the perspective that we give. So podcasts, great mediums, and this week showed that there's money, there's money in podcasting, so shout out to the podcasts. Serge: All right. Perfect. Well, my second shout-out is a Canadian crooner, so Michael Bublé, famous Canadian singer was at the NHL All-Star game this week, and he was like a team captain, like celebrity team captain. And he went to a press conference, high as fuck on mushrooms, and it was so evident, even though he admitted it during the press conference, but then tried to retract after... It was funny 'cause he was on stage with Will Arnett, we were just talking about. I don't know if you've seen it, but definitely go check it out because it is hilarious. I love me some NHL and some celebrities that are high as fuck. Joel: Check it out everybody. Check it out. So the All-Star game was this weekend, did you watch... I watched some of the skills thing... McDavid is a monster. He's really impressive. What were your thoughts as a Canadian? Is hockey on the up trend? Are you happy about its place where it is? What's going on? Serge: Yeah, I'm really happy where it is right now, obviously, my team, the Montreal Canadians are not very good, but to your point, and I'm gonna put out something and I want to get your opinion. McDavid is the best professional athlete out there. There is no one in their sports that dominates as much as Connor McDavid, and you saw him live. You notice him more than any other athlete on the ice, and that's pretty rare for most sports. So McDavid, huge fan, even though I'm not a fan of the Edmonton Oilers, he's just such a beast. So hockey is doing well. I think what we're gonna see in hockey is they're talking about approximately six more US expansion teams, which is driving a lot of Canadians crazy. Joel: And none of them in Québec City, which is a crime, in my perspective. [chuckle] Serge: It is a crime. It is. Joel: I probably disagree with McDavid, but I don't see enough of him. The real tragedy is he's in Alberta, he's in a mountain time zone, and he plays a sport that most Americans could leave or give a shit about. So... Serge: Yeah. Joel: I can't speak, but we see a lot of really good athletes here in America in a variety of sports, but I'll take your word for it. He is definitely built differently, as you know, I was at a Canadiens game a few weeks ago, and they're just, guys, when you watch in person, Ovechkin, I told you was like this, LeBron is like this. If you've ever seen these guys, they're just built differently, they're just chiseled out of a different piece of rock. I mean they are monsters, and he is one of those guys. Now, Bedard, I can't imagine you think you're high on him. I know he's like 12, but I haven't seen him, but I guess he's a similarly impressive guy. Serge: He's very impressive, but he's definitely not Connor McDavid. He's a lot smaller too. Like you've got, Connor McDavid has all the skills, but also has size, and he's proven it. Like his like 150 points in the NHL is unheard of. Like in the days of Wayne Gretzky, it wasn't, but these days, it's really odd. I see Connor Bedard as a superstar, and I think it's great for Chicago, but I don't see it... Joel: No, not that level. Serge: I don't see him at the level of Connor McDavid, not even close. Who's the guy in NFL? Like who is that beast in the NFL that you're like, they're built differently. Joel: NFL's tough, 'cause it's a different... Like I can say, Patrick Mahomes is an incredible athlete. And it's true. Josh Allen is an incredible athlete. All those guys are, but there are guys on the defense that are impressive athletes. I mean basketball has some just ridiculous athletes. I mean look at Wemby, but he's built for his sport, he's 7'4" and can, you know, like he's just ridiculous. We'll see the Olympics this summer. They're incredible athletes, but just 'cause you can like run a 4, 4, it doesn't mean you can hit a baseball, it doesn't mean you can hit a 90 mile an hour fast ball. So all these things are very different. I mean McDavid may not be able to dunk, right? But he's... That doesn't mean he's not a great athlete. Speaking of greatness my friend, that leads me to my next shout-out and our final one. My shout-out goes to Alexander Zhadan. Who the fuck is Alexander Zhadan you might ask. Well, my man has gained attention for revealing that he employed ChatGPT to operate a Tinder bot, that's the dating app that you and I know nothing about, resulting in over 5,000 matches. Let me repeat that, 5,000 matches, and ultimately helping him meet his fiance. Joel: Zhadan shared that he proposed to the girl ChatGPT had interacted with on his behalf for an entire year. Now, I bring up this dating story because it has recruiting relevance. I've said for a long time that we're eventually going to a place where robots interview robots, and the only time people actually meet is when they show up at the company for their first day. And this to me, proves that we're on track for that reality. The fact that this dude could hold conversations with 5,000 girls who are not easily duped. I've dated in the past, I mean, there are dumb girls as there are dumb guys. Joel: But most of them like you can't get past a chat bot, but this guy did it with current technology, and you can bet that they're gonna be techies, and there already have been that interview with multiple companies, and on the other side of the company, they're chatting with him with a chat bot. So this is kind of a weird world we're going to. You as a recruiter, like what are your thoughts on where this is going, is it a good place? Is it a bad place? Should we try to stop it? Is it just like it can't be stopped. What are your thoughts on robots interviewing robots? Serge: Well, in this particular case, like hats off for this guy, right? 'Cause I couldn't manage dating three girls at the same time, so obviously technology is way ahead since I was in the dating pool. But if we look at... It's not a robot interviewing a robot in this particular case, even though these ladies are going to assume we're real, even though they did get to, but we are definitely heading that way and it scares the shit out of me, Joel. If you think about it and you had Hilke on your show, and I have Hilke coming on who wrote The Algorithm, and just thinking about how we're just letting it run wild, I think we're already past the point that like we can't stuff it back in. Serge: We are going to get within the next couple of years, a couple of things. Someone is going to get hired that basically, we're a robot in the sense that they did their interviews through some type of AI program that's going to happen, and we are going to see... I think it's already happening. Like robots are interviewing robots, so yes, it is happening. Do I like it? No. But there's some elements that I like. What I do like about AI in this space is definitely removing a lot of the things that really suck to do. Like I hate booking interviews, I hate doing all the admin tasks, if you can take that off my plate, great. Serge: But the other things as far as making hiring decisions, and even the matching software, you're still like putting your hands on a scale, like you're acting like God with technology that has no clue... I know they probably train on large language models, there's a lot of data around it, but I still don't think it's accurate, and I don't think anyone after they implement these tools are actually going back and checking does it still make sense. Joel: Just wait till video, you can't tell the difference. Just wait till conversations, you can't tell the difference. There's gonna have to be filters and companies are gonna pop up that say like, no, this is an AI, this is not a human being. How you police that, I have no idea, I believe with you, I believe your comment of the toothpaste is out of the bottle, and we're not ever going back, but in light of that, my friend, almost as good as toothpaste out of the bottle is booze out of the can or booze out of the bottle, which is where I start talking about the free stuff that you can get at Chad and Cheese, that's right. If you like free t-shirts from our friends at JobGet, free beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs, and free bourbon, you get a selection from me and a selection from Chad every month. That is from our friends at Textkernel. And if it's your birthday, that's right, if it's your birthday, you could win a bottle of rum from our friends at Plum. SFX: Ooh, ooh. Really, can you feel the tension in the air right now? Serge: I love that soundbite. But I don't think Michelle at Plum loves it. Have you asked her? SFX: I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: What I've found is everyone loves it there, and it's a great hook for people to remember... Serge: I love it. Joel: Plum. Maybe it's good or bad, but anyway, it's definitely good for the people that are having a birthday because they have a chance to win some booze. So anyway, some listeners that are celebrating another trip around the Sun, include Elizabeth Dunlap, Ivan Stoyanovich, Jonathan Zube, Saif Ahmed, Adam Bergen, Jim Kurtz, Ryan Ravina, Collie Nichols, Sarah Hanson, Matt Riordan, Amadoo Bamia, Joe Essenfeld. He's on this show twice by the way, happy birthday, Joe. Tania Pittman, Ben Wagster, Mimi Jerkin, Courtney Brown, Jess Fondbank, Andrew Rothman, Jason Loritson, Dave Ralph, one of my favorite Irishman. Amanda Thomson Buffington, Dave Mendoza, and my neighbor down the street, and Indeed employee and maybe their only sign of life at employee, Scott Stum. What's up Stummy? Celebrate a birthday, and that is the birthdays. Now, just so you know, I'm wrapping in two weeks in one because we were live and skipped them from last week, so happy birthday today. Well, it's travel season, Serge, and I know you're on the road, you wanna plug any places you're gonna be here in the next couple of months or this year? Serge: Well, I'm going to make an announcement, TA Tech in Washington in May, myself and Shelley will be the official MCs of that show. Just a couple of other shows. [laughter] I love your soundbites. Joel: And that's Washington DC, not Washington State. Gotta make that clarification, so... Okay. Serge: Yes. Thanks for clarifying that. And aside from that, we'll be at Unleash, HR Tech, all the big shows, look for the good looking guy. [laughter] Joel: Such humility with the Canadian people. That's great. All right. Well, our travels are heating up as well. We're in San Diego recently, be at Transform in Vegas in March, I think that's the 11th through the 13th, and then we're headed to good old Europe, the old country, we're going to Amsterdam, to the House of HR conference, the E-recruitment conference. If you're gonna be in Amsterdam and if, or if you're in Europe and you wanna stop by, I think that's March 19th. Go to chadcheese.com, click our Events link. We have a coupon code for 50% off. Holy shit, 50%. And in Euros, I'm not sure how that equals out to dollars and Canadian dollars, but it sounds like a pretty good deal to me, no matter what. Again, our travels are sponsored by the good folks at Shaker Recruitment Marketing, and my last announcement before we get to topics, if you haven't listened to The Chad & Cheese Podcast does data with LinkUp CEO Toby Dayton. It's a great show. We do it once a month. We look at the jobs report, which I know you guys talked about recently on your show, we dig into it, we ask questions about 25 minutes. It's on YouTube only, so you gotta go to youtube.com/@chadcheese to check that out, and that is the announcements. You got anything else, Serge? You wanna make a football prediction or anything before we get to topics? Serge: That's it. Joel: SuperBowl prediction, before we get to topics? Serge: Kansas City 34-28, Kansas City over under on Taylor Swift Cutaways 12. Joel: So we did this on the monthly show, I said Kansas City 24-21, you got a lot of scoring in that game that will be interesting. That's too pretty good defenses. What's changing my mind is Mahomes' dad with the DUI. Number three, DUI. That's never good the week before a game. So he's gonna have, his head's gonna be in weird place. You never want dad with the perp shot, you never want the mug shot with your dad, it's number three, he could do jail time. Like that's... Serge: He could. Serious jail time too, right? Joel: Yeah, serious jail time. So I'm on the fence man. I had 24-21... Serge: Put your money on the QB. Joel: 24-21... I like the QB. Yeah. It's hard to, but if the goat's got some bad shit in his head, that makes me think twice. I'll stick with Kansas City 24-21, but I love the commercials and Taylor Swift, there's gonna be a lot of Taylor Swift, I'm afraid, let's get to... [music] Joel: Topics. That's right. Google for Jobs is back in the news. We talked about it last week in the show that they're taking away their pay-per-click solution that we've been talking about, they were testing it, piloting with some agencies. Well, Google unexpectedly closed its job advertising test, citing performance issues according to its participants, feedback indicated low application rates and shrinking job budgets. Google provided no explanation for the shutdown, leaving speculation about staffing cuts and competing priorities. One source said, "Performance just wasn't there." Serge, what are your thoughts on Google pulling out? Serge: I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed. I really thought this was an opportunity to kind of start taking a bite out of the Indeed monopoly, especially here in Canada, where Indeed dominates 90% of the market share. I did think it was going to be a great alternative. I am disappointed I think is the biggest word I can say right now. Joel: So I've thought about this a lot, Serge. Serge: Yeah. Joel: I've lost sleep over it, 'cause it's so perplexing to me, and I had this long soliloquy that I had prepared about how the job board business sucked and Google... It just wasn't worth Google's time, and they just... It wasn't worth it, right? And then it was great for Indeed, and like they should celebrate. And then we had a report from AppCast recently about how clicks are going down, like the number of clicks are going up, but what people are getting for the clicks is going down. And historically, when you're a middle man to any of this stuff, like it's a race to the bottom, like prices are just gonna go down eventually. And I was gonna say, Google just didn't want any part of that, but then I put my tin foil hat on, Serge. And I'm gonna be a little conspiratorial in my commentary here, and I've been in a few of these back rooms with the cigar smoke, and like it's usually five or 10 other white, old white guys talking about so and so promised this to so and so, and in return they got so and so. Joel: I have no proof of this, I have no inside information, but it would not surprise me if Google sat down in the board room and said, hey, what industry can we like scare the shit out of and get money from? Well, classifieds is an easy one, right? Job post... They know how much Indeed is spending. They know how much ZipRecruiter is spending. So what if Google said, you know what? Let's launch this job thing, it'll be easy for us, we'll put some resources behind it, and then we'll start talking about a pay-per-click thing, and we'll start talking about like we'll do pilot things and like really scare the shit out of these folks. And it's no surprise to me that Indeed was not on Google for Jobs and now they are. Indeed spends a ton of money with Google, and then you have a post by our friend, Chris Russell, who's really on the front lines of like the small niche job board folks, and he talks about how it's all big sites now. It used to be the little guys, it used to be little niche boards that were on Google for Jobs, and it's now all ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, big, like big sites, right? That spend a lot of money. Joel: So would you really put it past Google to call up Indeed, to call up LinkedIn, to call up ZipRecruiter, to call up any, Seek in Australia, whatever, right? And say, you know what? If you guys sort of commit to, I don't know, five years at a certain budget to advertise on Google, we'll forget about this whole pay-per-click thing, and we'll keep putting your jobs in the organic thing, and you'll still get a lot of exposure and traffic, but we'd like some sort of a commitment, monetary commitment in advertising. And why wouldn't Indeed, LinkedIn, and whatever take that deal? They're gonna spend it anyway, and then Google gets to go, okay, well, let's put our resources back into AI in fighting OpenAI and fighting Meta who just had a blow-out quarter. And if you think I'm crazy, Google gives Apple $6 billion a year to be the default search engine on Safari. Serge: Yeah. Joel: It would be nothing for Apple to go buy DuckDuckGo or buy some other search engine or build their own and have their own pay-per-click thing, like Apple could do it. Do they wanna do it? No, it's much easier and better to get $6 billion check written from Google and they don't have to worry about it. I think some conversations happened where the big job sites committed dollars to Google, and in return, wink wink, hush hush, Google said we're gonna get out of the job board business. That's my take on Google getting out of the pay-per-click business. Am I crazy? Serge: You're not crazy, but I don't think you're right. I think there's definitely some factors, and if we look at Google job ads, and basically for Google, it was kind of replacing the money that was being spent on SEM ads, which Indeed, LinkedIn, all of these players are massive budgets. We're talking about billions of dollars, and those dollars were just going to move into the Google job ad platform. So I didn't see a lot of upside because in reality, outside of those big job boards or ad agencies, have you ever been into one of these dashboards trying to buy an ad on Google? Like there is not a recruiter that I know would be able to do this or want do this this, right? Joel: It'd be the agencies. Serge: It'd be the agency. Joel: The agencies would buy it for them. Right? Serge: They would, but there's... Joel: Frankly, it would be going to Indeed and say, hey, you wanna sponsor your jobs? Like here's the cost. Serge: Yeah. Joel: It wouldn't be the little guy, the little recruiter buying the ads. Serge: No, there wouldn't be. Joel: And I like Google's pushed out... The dream of Google was like all the company jobs would take precedence, all the people would click on the company jobs, and we could eliminate job boards. Unfortunately, user behavior says, I know LinkedIn, I don't know this company from Adam, I gotta go through a 45-minute application ATS bullshit process, I can apply with one click from LinkedIn. So I think it just... It became a thing where everyone's going to the big job sites anyway, they're not going to the company sites like we thought, let's just... Let's get our coin. Have you read The Art of War by Sun Tzu? Serge: I have. Joel: Okay. So Sun Tzu said, "The greatest victory is that which requires no battle." Google basically won this fight, fattened up their bottom line with no battle whatsoever, just the fear that Google would launch this thing, I think got the big companies to open their wallets. Serge: I don't think that's what happened. I really do think... [laughter] Serge: I don't think that's what happened. I think the reality here, Joel, is that Google's core business is potentially in deep trouble, and we've seen some recent layoffs at Google, there's definitely... Well, they still have a ton of staff. So don't get me wrong, but I think their focus is completely different, and I do think to a couple of billion dollars and maybe not even a couple of billion is not worth the effort, it's not worth the effort in Europe, it's not worth the regulation nightmares it might come across if they actually become successful at this. And to your point, I agree ad agencies would buy this, but you think about a lot of Indeed's business is coming from that mom and pop buying that $15 a day budget, buying a job and without the ability to do that, Google is not going to be an avenue for most of the jobs is only going to be populated with the big jobs out there. So I think it has nothing to do... It's not a bad theory, but I think you've been listening to Joe Rogan and conspiracy theories a little too much. [laughter] Joel: That's right, I want a piece of that $250 million that Joe Rogan's getting. So if it takes a conspiracy theory about Google strong arming the job boards, well, I'm willing to take, I'm willing to take that bet. But you as typical, it takes a Canadian to pull down the crazy American and see some logic. Serge: Yeah, I think there's not enough money, and Google's core business is going to be their focus, it's like... It's a nasty business. Joel: It is. Serge: Like I've been in 20 years and no one wants to run a job board. I don't blame anyone for running a job board, but I don't see like aggregating all the jobs on the internet is a fucking nightmare. And I think Google finally realized that. Joel: All right. Let's move on to Fora. An executive relationship management platform or ERM has launched this week, where they focus on AI technology tailored for C-suite leaders, backed by 3.8 million in pre-seed funding, they aim to revolutionize decision making for executives by offering actionable insights amidst the daily information flow. Fora simplifies complex data providing concise insights for a strategic advantage as attested by CEO, Joe Shaker, Shaker Recruitment and Marketing, and also a proud sponsor of Chad & Cheese I might add, noteworthy here. In addition to Joe Shaker's stamp of approval is Fora bringing back Jibe leadership, Joe Essenfeld and Michael Liddell as well as iCIMS former CMO, Susan Vitale as an advisory board member, getting the band back together, if you will. You might remember. Serge: So I didn't know the My Pillow guy... Joel: Mike Liddell, yeah. Serge: Was part of this as well. I'm surprised. Joel: He's lifted a little bit and lost some hair, but yeah, it's a totally different Mike, it's Michael, Michael Liddell. Yeah. Serge: Michael. Joel: It's like Mike Cohen is... Yeah. No, Michael Cohen, 'cause he's a sleaze bag. Anyway, you remember Jibe was acquired by iCIMS, Susan was at iCIMS, Joe was at iCIMS for a while, and he's gone and launched for us. So Serge, what are your thoughts on Fora and executive relationship management? Serge: Yeah. To be completely honest, I had no clue what that meant until I had to go to ChatGPT and keep reading that article multiple times. It's a little bit different then ERM, which is enterprise relationship management, but aside, whatever it is, there's a couple of things that I look for success when a new company is launching, and it's people that have done it before and had been successful. And I had the opportunity to work a little bit with Susan Vitale, back in my Workopolis days and we were a reseller for iCIMS in Canada, and she was extremely impressive. I haven't met the other members of this team, but I feel like they have the chops, they have the chops to accomplish this, and so kudos on them. I'm still not 100% sure what an executive relationship manager does. But just reading on it, it looks like it helps people just doing decisions at a high level, it takes a lot of data and just kind of simplifies it and brings it to a way that helps you make that decision. Joel: Got it. So you're right with the jockeys and we gotta look at those before anything else. So Joe Essenfeld launched Jibe really before mobile was cool. The idea was we'll build mobile websites for career centers, and I can remember multiple people saying no one will ever search for a job on a mobile device, on a smartphone, no one will ever search, no one will ever look at jobs and no one will definitely ever apply to a job on a mobile phone. So Joe was very early in the mobile revolution, and he obviously was correct in his vision. So to be a little bit curious about what the hell is this thing, it doesn't really surprise me because Joe's always sort of been ahead of the curve to say the least on some of these things. We've talked about on the show of like AI CEOs. Do we really need CEOs? That's a little crazy. Joel: I won't go off the reservation again on you on this show. Well, I might, but who knows? But having an augmented executive is not crazy, like to say, okay, let's say I'm on a battlefield and I'm a general, like, okay, give me the AI. What could possibly happen with any move possible, and then let me decide based on the information what I think is best. So I'm still making the decision, but I'm making it more intelligently, hopefully, because I have AI behind me. I'm sure there are multiple executive decisions every day where they would love to go, okay, put this in the AI machine and tell me what I should do or tell me what my odds are, be my C-3PO, if you will, tell me what my chances are of escaping the minefield or the asteroid field, and I'll make the decision from there. So I like the idea of an augmented executive, and I think a smart executive would use something like this. I love the URL, it's fora.day, so it's Fora Day, memorable, kinda weird, kinda out there. So... Serge: I like it. Joel: 3.8 is a good start. Think Joe is a good jockey. He's a visionary. I think getting Joe Shaker on board at Shaker means that he's gonna connect that with a lot of other people, he's got a good track record. So I'm gonna watch this company carefully, I'm not necessarily ready to buy if you put my feet to the fire, but I'm definitely not selling the idea of like an augmented AI tailored a sick co-pilot for an executive, I think it's an interesting idea. Serge: Joel, if you think about it, it's the perfect tool for an executive. If you look at what a CEO's job is, is to make decisions... Joel: Manage risk. Serge: That's it. In reality, make the big decisions in some ways, I think obviously AI and this type of tool is going to have a lot more data to be able to make that decision, so it makes a lot of sense. I'm just saying, I'm gonna be looking at really closely is pretty interesting stuff, but not ready to say bye, but they've got a track record. So I'll go by that. Joel: And who wouldn't love, hey, why the hell did you do that? Oh, well, the data says this. So you're not culpable for the dumb things you do as an executive, you have AI behind you saying that you made the right move. Serge: Yeah. Well, in that case like why do we need CEO's to your point, 'cause at one particular point, they're going to make better decisions than most CEOs can, so you might be going the right track here. Joel: Someone at VC made a prediction in 2024, someone will invest like a decent chunk of money in a company and realize that the CEO is a bot or AI, and all the employees are AI-driven. But who's not AI-driven are our sponsors on the show. So let's take a quick break. Pay some bills, and we'll talk about Lyft when we get back. So Serge, are you an Uber or Lyft guy? Do you... Are you an equal opportunity rider? What's your take? Serge: So I rarely take any of it unless I'm traveling. Joel: Take the limo, right? You get the limo guy with the Boudreau sign at the airport. Serge: Yes, absolutely. It's a requirement. So usually, I'll leverage Uber for sure. I've never taken a Lyft, and Lyft is not really big here in Calgary, in my hometown. So the only option is Uber. Joel: Calgary. Well, Lyft is in the news again. They're introducing weekly earnings guarantees for drivers, a first in the US ride- hailing industry, aiming to attract more drivers to its platform amidst competition with... You guessed it, Uber. The move addresses concerns about driver earnings and aims to strengthen the sector, additionally, Lyft announced measures to improve transparency and offering incentives for drivers, including extra earnings for scheduled rides and electric vehicle usage. Serge, what are your thoughts on the move? Is this going to be a strike to Uber that really wounds the leader or not? Serge: I don't think it is. There's a couple of things I have to say here. So you had Kevin Wheeler on your podcast, I think a couple of weeks ago, and he said one thing that really stuck with me is basically five years, he was talking about UPS and be like... Or UAW, sorry, and in five years, we'll give you the money now, in five years, you're going to be replaced. Obviously, they're not saying that. I think this is very similar, 'cause the question is like when do we get to driverless cars? And this is... I don't think this business model works without being... Without that being the future of where Uber and Lyft go, that these cars are driven not by people, because we are going to run out of people. Serge: The supply chain challenges as far as when it comes to talent, to be able to staff all these cars across North America across the world, it's just not sustainable. So I think this is just a way to appease the drivers for the next 5-10 years, and I also, I have a conspiracy theory around it, and I wanna bounce it off you, I definitely think this is Lyft's... They're trying to cause Uber some pain. They're trying to cause Uber some pain to eventually get acquired. They're trying to get acquired by Uber is one of my guess, I have no clue, I don't spend any time in this space, but it kinda makes sense. Like who wants to get in the battle of paying the drivers more and more, it's just... It doesn't... No one wins, Uber or Lyft doesn't win at the end of the day, so there's gotta be another motive here is my thoughts. Joel: The motive is just to be competitive and stay alive, and Uber has done an amazing job of being the Coca-Cola of the ride-sharing, ride-hailing industry. And I remember when Netflix came out and delivered DVDs to your door, you probably remember this as well. And you put it back in the mail and you sent the CD or DVD back, you didn't have late fees, you didn't have like any of this stuff. And then Blockbuster said, Holy shit, we're getting killed, we'll do what Netflix does, and they launched this big, I think actually a Super Bowl ad at one point of like, we'll ship them to you Blockbuster, and everyone said, well, everyone knows Blockbuster, Netflix is still this fairly little company, but it didn't work. The attempt didn't work, it was desperation. Netflix, they were that brand, they were associated with mailing CD, DVDs, and Blockbuster was still the company that you got in your car and you went out and hoped that the video was there. And that you rented it. So to me, like Uber has won this branding battle, they are the 800-pound gorilla. The only thing Lyft could do would be reduce prices, and I've ridden in both, and I would say Lyft typically is much cheaper than Uber. Joel: The problem is you need rides for me to buy. So Uber is so much more available in multiple countries, they're more international, they're just easier to use, they've done a great job of integrating with like enterprise accounts and business accounts and things like that. So to me, like Lyft, applause for like trying to give back more to the drivers, make it more profitable for them, but the problem is you gotta drive people somewhere to make a dollar. And unless Lyft changes everyone's perception that Lyft is a better way to go, no one's gonna take Lyfts like they do Uber. So to me it's like it's just a failed battle, Lyft can hope to be acquired, I don't know who. Maybe a driverless car company would buy it for the brand, but to me, or maybe DoorDash could buy it and just like monopolize the drivers to do that, I don't know. I think it's a move of desperation and it's basically over for them. Serge: So why wouldn't Uber buy them? Joel: Well, you get into some monopoly issues, you'd have to go in front of Congress and say, this is not anti-competitive trust. Yeah. Serge: Well, is there room? Joel: It's better for Uber... It's better for Uber to just let Lyft die or maybe get it for parts, government doesn't care 'cause Lyft is so small, but I just... I don't think Uber wants that government intervention in their business. They're doing so well right now, why fuck it up with government like knocking on the door for anti-trust issues. Serge: Do you think there's enough room for multiple... I know there is Uber and Lyft are the two biggest. There's probably 20 different ones depending on the country that you're in. Is it just kind of a market size, well, the market is massive, but is there enough demand and enough people there are going to be driving that... There can be 100 people or 100 companies doing this. Joel: Look, Uber, Uber is great. I mean... Serge: They are. Joel: They've got a good platform. They've got scale, they got the drivers, they got the reviews, they have the security issues, they have... They got it going on. I mean what's gonna disrupt them is like a Netflix, it's gonna be someone say, we are driverless, you get in the car, you scan your QR code on your app, it takes you where you wanna go, you get out and you're done. Like that, if somebody comes along and does that, that could disrupt Uber, but another like drivers and the way it is now, I think Uber is gonna be 80% of the market. Serge: Yeah. Joel: And Lyft and others that come on will be the other 20 or so percent. They're going deep, Serge. SFX: Just the tip. Serge: Just the tip. Joel: Going deep. We have you to thank for that soundbite. Don't we? Serge: It's my voice. You didn't know that? Joel: Give you credit for that. Oh yeah. [chuckle] Let's talk about bots speaking of driverless car. So it was a good news and bad news week for bots. First, the good news, Starship Technology is a company that produces sidewalk delivery robots, has secured 90 million in funding to expand operations. The investment will fuel a geographic expansion, enhanced manufacturing capabilities and invest in software and logistics. With 6 million deliveries and 11 million miles traveled, the company is profitable, and as an Estonian-based company focused on Europe. Now to some bad news for robots, the NYPD is ending its AI-driven security robots deployment in the Times Square subway station after a pilot program. These were these 400-pound egg-shaped wheel bots created by a company called Knightscope. NYPD did not disclose the robot's crime finding efficiency. Meanwhile, going back to some good news, the NYPD's canine robot Digidog, which we've talked about on the show, returns to service... Serge: I am but it depends on which bots. Joel: After a hiatus. Serge, are you buying or selling... Serge: And definitely these delivery bots, have you seen them out in the wild? Joel: The bots? Serge: Have you ever seen one? Joel: Not only have I seen them, I've seen TikToks of people breaking them open 'cause they know food's in it, and it's... I don't wanna point fingers, but usually homeless, down-on-their-luck folks, or kids that wanna like get a meal or just fuck shit or get a fun video on TikTok, but I have seen people be really, really naughty to these robots. I assume that's a fringe case. I assume it's single-digit percentages that this happens, because they just got $90 million, which means there's some business there and they are profitable, but yes. Serge: In Estonia is the market. Joel: Well, Europe, not just Estonia, not just the Helsinki metro area. They are in other places. But, so you're bearish on wheeled R2D2 robots delivering food. Serge: No, I... Yeah. I'm definitely bearish 'cause there's no way some of these robots can survive America's inner city. Like what are you gonna do? Put like AK-47s attached to them? Like they're going to do the same shit they did with the Lime scooters, I forget what the brand is, and the bikes. We see that in Canada as well. I do not see a future in this, they're going to get vandalized, damaged in every major city. It might not happen in the country, but they're not gonna use these delivery bots in the country at all. So definitely bearish. I would not put a penny, obviously people that know a whole lot more than I do, think it will work. There's no way this works in America. Joel: It'll work in Fringe situations, big cities maybe where there's cameras and security and you can't get away with it as easily, but yeah, country, it won't work. Security, I think, makes a lot of sense. Sometimes there's equipment that's heavy and police officers don't wanna to... Like Digidog makes a lot of sense. It is a little bit dystopian, but I don't know if you saw in the news this week, a New York City cop got jumped by, I think six illegal immigrants or new immigrants, so there's a whole like political to blow up on this. But the point is that there are a lot of cops and frankly, we need all the cops we can get. Serge: I agree. Joel: Like recruiting cops is not a growth industry, and if you can plug in robotic security or augmented security where it's kind of cool to be a cop, you get a like digital dog walking with you, walking the beat with you. Or you have R2D2 with a machine gun in case you get jumped by a bunch of knuckleheads like that to me makes sense because cops need all the help they can get. We want cops to be successful. We want cops to feel safe, and we want cops to beget more and more cops for security. So from that perspective, I'm buying the canine, I'm buying the egg, whatever. Joel: I think technology will make it so that facial recognition and cameras in subways are gonna be much better, but just the presence of something that looks like, oh, I might not wanna do what I wanna do, that's a crime, because there's this thing there and I can't go beat it up because it's got a siren and a cop is with it, whatever it is, right? But security, people wanna feel safe, people are feeling scared, particularly in America in the big cities. And this to me is something that makes a lot of sense. I did like the New York Post headline about retiring the Times Square robot. It was Rust in Peace, which I thought was cute, and... Serge: I'll end it on this. I think I'm definitely bullish on bots, but I'm bullish on bots when it comes to where it makes sense, right? I'm thinking, like I saw a video this week that just blew my mind of this robot harvesting hay, I'm like, well, that's amazing. It did it like in two minutes, I see it in manufacturing, I see it in quick service restaurants. I think there will be bots, I just don't think they will be everywhere. So I am bearish and bullish depending on what the robot looks like, but definitely not those delivery bots, no way, it's not gonna happen. Joel: Something else that's not going away is sponsors on our show because we need to pay some bills. Let's take a quick break. And we'll come back and talk about Apple. All right, Serge, let's get a little naughty. A little naughty I know you Canadians like a little naughty. So Apple's Vision Pro, I'm sure you've seen this thing, I don't know if it's for sale in Canada yet, but it's big news. So their VR headset has disappointed buyers, maybe not for the reason that you think. It's disappointing buyers because it apparently blocks access to VR pornography, that's right, prompting frustration and complaints on social media and Reddit. Despite anticipation for its release, users find they cannot access explicit content leading to speculation about intentional restrictions by Apple. The headset also faces criticism for its high price of $3,500 US, dubbing it, "An overpriced chastity belt." If you need a naughty alternative, Serge, never fear, try the Meta Quest 2, not that I speak from experience... Serge: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joel: That is. Serge, your take on Apple's no porn for you. Serge: Oh imagine the shame of being caught with your dick in your hand wearing that space helmet. It would probably be the most shame that anyone could ever feel, so outside of that, you can still play PornHub in flat video, so are they upset by that? It's gotta come eventually. Right? Like it's gotta be available that you get the full VR experience. Someone's going to figure it out. I did see there's like Reddit threads, basically talking how you can bypass it. I don't know if anyone did, but I don't know, if it could. Maybe I'd get one. No, I'm kidding. But I would get one for different reasons, obviously. I love it. I think it's the coolest thing ever. Would you get one? Joel: Yeah. A VR headset? I mean I talk a lot about it on the show. Serge: Would you get this one? Joel: I just... Not for $3,500. Serge: No? Joel: I'll get the fourth generation 999 version. But the whole... So my take on this... So I learned really early in my career that the success of the Internet was based on three things PPC, not pay-per-click, pills, porn, and casinos, built the original internet. I can remember being in college in the '90s where dial-up modem at my campus, going to like playboy.com and waiting like for the pixelated nipple to show up on the screen. If Apple is gonna block porn, and they've done a good job on the app store of not having any real naughtiness, although people would argue TikTok and social media is its own porn. But this to me is a real opportunity for Meta to sort of take the lead on all the guys out there. And there are a lot of lonely men. Or not lonely, I'm not judging. I'm not judging, Serge. We don't judge in America. Serge: No. Joel: That this is an opportunity... By the way, Mark Zuckerberg is having one of the best months ever. Serge: He is. Joel: Meta stock is off the chain. The dude kind of, you know, the Congress, I don't know if you saw this. He went in front of Congress. Dude, Congress needs to make laws like, [chuckle] that's a whole other show, but like they paid a dividend to Facebook, Meta shareholders, which made him 700 million richer overnight. He's looking kinda svelte. He's growing his hair out. He's looking like an adult. He's looking sort of thoughtful. Like I think this could be the resurgence of Zuck, and I'm here for it, man. I'm here for it. VR porn or not, I'm a buyer of what Zuck is selling. And speaking of selling, the Recruitment Flex, thanks for joining me. For those that wanna listen to your secondarily nice show compared to ours, where would you send them? Serge: On all major podcast players, but also therecruitmentflex.com, you can find all our episodes. Joel, this was a ton of fun. Thank you so much for bringing me on. SFX: Take off will ya we're doin' our movie! Don't wreck our show, you hoser! Joel: We out. Serge: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to... What's it called? Podcast with Chad and Cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing, just a lot of shout-outs to people you don't even know, and yet, you're listening, it's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. They're so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode, and while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

Hold onto your resumes, wage slaves, because The Weekly Show's about to launch. This week's itinerary? Corporate drama as spicy as sriracha lattes: LinkedIn's Message to Recruiters: Our crystal ball says -- It ain't nice. Moneybags Mania: Buckle up for a cash explosion! Huler's McDucking it, Ceridian's playing Monopoly with learning platforms, and DailyPay's got a billion-dollar piggy bank. Your salary? A rounding error. Job Board Jeopardy: Hold onto your FlexJobs! Bold.com snatched it like a free croissant at a networking event. Meanwhile, Sports Illustrated might be taking a dirt nap thanks to The Arena Group's fumble. Are robots writing your news now? Google's Global Games: Across the globe, Google's playing musical chairs with its Korean employees. But guess what? They're not having it. So there you have it, work world circus in a nutshell. Laugh, cry, maybe fart a little – that's what we're here for. Tune in next week for more corporate clowning and your weekly dose of The Weekly Show. Because in this game, we're all just juggling deadlines and dodging banana peels. Keep calm and carry on… with your trusty air freshener. P.S. Spread the word, wage slaves! We're all in this crazy ride together. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who finished last in New Hampshire, so we're suspending our campaign. What's up kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel "Vision Pro" Cheesman. Chad: And this is Chad "Zombie Killer" Sowash. Joel: And on this show LinkedIn says, "Bend over." A good week for Uncle Joe, and Google may have a hostage crisis on its hands. Let's do this. SFX: Emotional damage. Joel: Chad, did you get a... Did you buy a pair of Vision Pros or are you on the waiting list? Like what... Chad: You mean the ones that cost like $3 million a piece? No. I did not. I did not get them. [laughter] Joel: 3500. Chad: Oh. Joel: So it's... Chad: Oh. Okay. Joel: It's for the people. It's a product for the people, Chad. A product for the people. Chad: Blue collar people all over the world will have them. No. Joel: They sold out. I was pretty shocked. Now maybe... Chad: They had 25 of them. Yeah. It still... Joel: There are a lot of people in the world who have more money than they know what to do with and just drop the credit card to buy them. But... Chad: And they're not line workers. I'm going to gonna say that. I'm just going to gonna go ahead and put that out there. I'm going to gonna generalize they're not line workers who have 3,500 bucks. Joel: Pretty sure the UAW is not going to gonna be putting cars together with the Apple Vision Pro on their heads. Chad: Although, I did do some zombie killing this week at the Sandbox VR this last weekend. I mean, that was only 50 bucks a pop, and it was like an hour and a half in total. Get there, check in, training, then you got equipped, get all your equipment put on. There were five of us that are fighting zombies. I mean, it was a blast. We should have a Chad and Cheese VR Zombie Killing event in Indianapolis or there are many cities across the US that we could actually do these. It'd be a blast. Good team build. Joel: Yeah. This wasn't $50 per zombie, was it? It was like 50 in all the zombies you can kill, I hope. Chad: Yes. Yes. It was a blast. Yeah. Totally. Literally and figuratively. Joel: Yeah. And speaking of zombies, I know a few Bills fans who have been walking around like they're dead after that loss... Chad: Hello, wide right. Joel: To the Chiefs. Yeah. That was so... I mean, only the Bills. Maybe the Browns or the Lions, but the Lions, of course. So those who don't know, we have our Final Four in the NFL. We have San Francisco taking on Detroit, and we have Baltimore taking on Kansas City. What's your take on how this is going to gonna play out? Chad: I mean, Kansas City, they've been playing like shit all year, but they've bumbled into wins. I mean, they've just won. And there's the Bills to show you that. The Ravens, I mean, they've been playing hot. They're a strong team. I hope to see them win. At the end of the day, I want to wanna see the Detroit Lions win. Period. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: They're the massive underdog. All the others have won before. I want to see the Lions come out of this as Super Bowl champs. It's going to gonna be hard, but I hope that's what happens. Joel: Yeah. When this thing started, I was praying for a Cleveland Detroit Super Bowl, which would probably break... Chad: So awesome. Joel: Would probably break the NFL. But if I... Chad: It would break the internet. Joel: If I can get the original Browns who are the Baltimore Ravens playing Detroit, I guess that's as close as we can do. The Lions in a Super Bowl blows me away 'cause that just doesn't happen. I read something that said that the Lions would consider bringing Barry Sanders back on a one day contract and have him play one down somehow that if they win, he can get a ring. Which I think would be a feel good story, but probably not going to gonna happen. Chad: Well, I gotta say Stafford going to the Rams, winning with the Rams, right? I mean, that was... I mean, he was obviously long time quarterback at Detroit. Now, hopefully watching that on the other side, that would be amazing with Jared Goff, right? I mean, just Detroit overall, they deserve a win. Joel: Yeah. Now, your wife is a big Packers fan, and the Packers should have won that game. She pretty... Well, she's gotta be heartened by the fact that they're the youngest team in the NFL. Jordan Love looks like a real quarterback. Chad: He does. Joel: And they should be playing this weekend. Chad: I've gotta say, the Green Bay Packers know how to bring up a quarterback, right? And they're about the only team that does it this way. They had Aaron Rogers, they got Jordan Love behind Aaron Rogers, much like they had Aaron Rogers behind Brett Favre, right? So they get them there, they get them knowing the system, knowing the play. I mean, just all the way through, they know how to build quarterbacks, which I thought was amazing, unlike Chicago, where you throw Justin Fields into the fricking lions den right out of the gate. So, yeah. I mean, I like the Packers just from the way that they look at football. I mean, they're wholly owned by Green Bay. They're just an entirely different animal when it comes to sports. And I've never liked Aaron Rogers, so I'm glad he's fucking outta out of there. [chuckle] Chad: And I hope Jordan Love kicks ass, takes names so that Aaron Rogers can just be smoked as nothing in the past. Joel: There's gotta be an employment lesson in there somewhere. Let's see. Recruit well, train well upskill and you win people. That's... Look to the Packers. Look to the Packers for guidance, everybody. Chad: Makes sense. Makes sense. Joel: Oh man. We got a lot to cover, so... Chad: Yep. Joel: Quick shout out to our friend Julie Calli. Guys listen, if you listen to the show, you know that we've done quite a few shows with Julie. We had a series on recruitment marketing. That's all in the archives. If you want to go to chadcheese.com. But Julie is now the CMO at Lensa after stint at recruitmentmarketing.com and Recruitics. She goes back to SEO days. Chad: Oh God. Yeah. Joel: In the mid 2000s. That was with six figure jobs, I think. So she's been around a while. She's going to gonna kick ass. We we're going to gonna see her at some point down the road, but shout out to Julie. Great person. I hope it's obviously a great opportunity. Go kick ass. We're cheering for you here at Chad and Cheese. Chad: Yeah. She might be in Budapest this week 'cause a lot of the leadership teams Gergo, Joey Stubbs is finding his way over there a lot, is in Budapest, which actually where my daughter lives. So hopefully she gets a chance to go over there, enjoy a little Eastern block. It's a great place to be. Congratulations. Not just to Julie, who is a fucking superstar, but also Lensa to be able to have somebody on staff with that kind of cred. Chad: All right. So, winning. You know who's winning? Our listeners are winning. It's funny because our listeners are now watching us on YouTube. So I'm getting pictures from listeners who are watching us on big screen TVs in their living room. So kids, pop some corn, pour some drinks and watch a little Chad and Cheese. But dude, seriously, this is surreal. I mean, people listening to us. That's one thing. In their cars on the train, wherever they're doing, but in their front room? Joel: Hey, TVs are in bedrooms too, Chad. SFX: What are doing, step bro? [laughter] Joel: I'm saying there may not be quite an aphrodisiac like watching the Chad Cheese podcast. I'm just saying. Chad: That's a very good point. Yeah. [laughter] Joel: Speaking of boner Killers, one company got punched in the mouth recently. Chad: Oh. Jesus. Joel: You've probably seen this on the socials. Chad: Yes. Joel: My shout out goes out to Brittany Peach. No. That apparently is not a stripper name. That is her real name. And she took her employer, I guess, past employer at this point, to the woodshed. Check out this TikTok, condensed version, the real version if you're gonna go check it out, search Brittany Peach, or it sounds like a Mario Luigi character. [laughter] Joel: Princess Peach. Britney Peach. Anyway, so let's check out that video and that soundbite from Brittany sticking it to her employer. [video playback] Chad: Ouch. Yeah. [video playback] Joel: I love that. [laughter] Joel: She might be a listener, Chad. 'Cause she dropped the whole, "You hired too many people and now you're paying for it." We've talked about that on the show many times about these companies that overhired, and now people like Brittany, who clearly shouldn't be on the chopping block, getting the axe. Chad: Four months, she's been in the job. And it's a sales job, so you've got a three-month ramp where you're going through training and all these things, that fourth month, which it sounds like was December is a hell of a month to be starting. I mean, let me just tell you, Q4 is not the easiest to start in. But CloudFlare, what did they do? They sent a couple of HR people in instead of the manager to be able to talk. And I gotta say, as a very young manager back in the day when I had to fire people, I was told by my CEO that I need to sit down, shut up, be in the room and let HR do what HR did. I learned that was wrong. That was bullshit. We are humans. We should be treating other humans like humans or we're going to get a shitty brand. And these guys, I mean, CloudFlare, I don't even know how this is going to hit her brand, but they also had many openings on their website when they were going through this process. Whew. She needs a drink. Joel: She does need a drink. Which is why she should head out to chadcheese.com, click that free link and register for a chance to win multiple prizes. But booze is one of them. We're talking a bourbon selection from each of us. Our friends at Text Kernel are powering that one free beer. Geez. A cold beer might go good with that layoff. That's from our friends at as Aspen Tech Labs. Of course we got T-shirts. We're in the development stage of getting some new stuff. So if you get a T-shirt from us, it's from our friends at JobGet. And if it's your birthday, Chad, you could win a lovely bottle of rum and that is from our friends at Plum. That's right. I said Plum. SFX: I could feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: Alright. Celebrating another trip around the sun, our listeners, Tony Leoi, Stephanie Krishnan, Matthew Miller, Ed John Zituske from Philly, Lynette Phillips, Rich Carrington, Kalia Gromlek, Shelly Cars, Ben Stewart, Chris Amato, Dandy Don Sabatino. Josh Jay-Z Roethlisberger Zwayne... Chad: There he is. Joel: And last but not least... SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, if it's no Scottish, it's crap. Joel: That's right. Our good friend Adam Gordon from Scotland celebrates another trip around the sun. Adam, I know you're listening. I know you're listening. So happy birthday. Have a little bit of scotch. The pity kind on me, my friend. Happy birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Everybody that's listening. Chad: Oh, what time is it? Oh, you know what time it is. Brought to you by Shaker Recruitment Marketing. It's time for events, kids. TA week is upon us. It is next week. And on Monday the 29th from 2:00 to 5:00, that's Pacific time, we will be with Qualify at the San Diego Zoo. Now, if you're one of the first 50 to sign up, you can actually get a free ticket to the zoo. Not to mention, have a little close and personal time with your favorite animals, The Chad and Cheese. So just go to a chadcheese.com/events. You can register. It's right there with the Koala. Looks like this. It looks like this in the header. When the events get up and running that day during TA week, we're actually going to be in the Qualify booth. So drinking, causing ruckus and doing interviews. So you can see us there at the Qualify booth. Then Tuesday night after the event, reception, drinks we're heading just a mile down the road to... Joel: Oh. [laughter] Chad: In-N-Out Burger with CollabWORK. With CollabWORK. So I'll be cheating on my diet and get over it. I'm getting a free animal style burger. Yes, Joel. I said free... Joel: I love it. Chad: In-N-Out Burger. Yep. So look for the CollabWORK team during the TA week events. They'll have stacks of these free cards that are for free In-N-Out burgers. And then again... SFX: That escalated quickly. Chad: Come to In-N-Out Burger. It's only about a mile down. We'll probably take a little walk, maybe Uber, have a little Chad and Cheese time, have a little animal style with your night and enjoy some time with the CollabWORK team. I'm pretty stoked. Joel: Double double with chopped peppers, fries well done, and a chocolate shake, that is what I'm talking about, Chad. Chad: Then we've got Transform, which is going to gonna happen in March. March 11th through 14th, where we're going to be at the win for Transform in Vegas. Our buddy EEOC Commissioner Keith Sonderling is going to gonna be there plus over 3000 attendees, 100 investors, 500 startups, 300 speakers. Damn! Joel: Damn. First time that we've been to transform and I... I'm fucking stoked. So if you guys are not a listener, listen up, go to chadcheese.com/events. If you're not going to these events, especially if you're in San Diego, go. If you're thinking about, I don't know, hitting a little Vegas time, go. Go to chadcheese.com/events and register. Joel: We're going to gonna be everywhere, guys. You're going to gonna be so sick of us when this is over. Oh, I can't. Chad: Topics. [music] Joel: Alright, Chad. LinkedIn is pissing off everybody. According to the sourcing community, LinkedIn has apparently made significant changes to public profiles removing headline about experience and education sections. This reduction could affect sourcing tools and competitors relying on LinkedIn data. While tools like Phantom Buster and Sales QL still work, LinkedIn X-Rays functionality is limited with some information, now inaccessible. Certain details such as school grades are no longer visible on public profiles. Of course, all of this drives people to LinkedIn's internal search, which requires a subscription to Recruiter, Recruiter Light or Sales Navigator for access to fuller data. This isn't a money grab is it, Chad? What are your thoughts on this news? Chad: So, after the HighQ ruling, how can anybody be surprised that this is happening? I mean, we were talking about this years ago when little bitty baby HighQ Labs was taking on LinkedIn for this same exact information grab. Right? So, the big question is, does the profile belong to... Does your profile belong to you or does it belong to LinkedIn? Well, LinkedIn won. HighQ got smashed and now, get ready, they're going to gonna be building higher walls in that wall of garden, which means higher prices. The question is, what will seek out, find them and higher EasyDo easy do if they're locked out or they get crunched with higher prices. Right? And let's face it, those platforms are superior search products compared to LinkedIn tools. So this feels like a very anti-competitive, very anti-innovation move by LinkedIn that, to be quite frank, we've all been waiting for. Will the vendors get locked out? Will prices go even higher? Hiring companies are already paying through the fucking nose when it comes to the recruiter seats. And we need competition in this space. We need new tools, we need new infrastructure, and this stifles all of that. Chad: But last but not least... [music] Chad: LinkedIn is going to say, "Hey, it's all about privacy." No. Bullshit. Don't buy the privacy excuse from LinkedIn when they throw it at you because that's bullshit. If LinkedIn was worried about privacy, they wouldn't be selling your data already. Okay? So, yes. This is really anti-competitive and I don't know. I'd be throwing the Microsoft name in there and I'd be going full antitrust. Joel: Sounds like you're wishing for our friend Elon to get his LinkedIn killer built in... Chad: No. I do not. Joel: In fast fashion. So that the trust issues go away or maybe Google could finally wake up and provide a product that's... Chad: No. Joel: That's competitive. I don't know. Yeah. Facebook, I don't know. Hey, TikTok, let China take over. Now, so higher prices for sure. No, like, you're gonna... People bitch about LinkedIn's pricing. Well, guess what? You're going to gonna really bitch when they go up next year. If I'm a service, like SeekOut, I'm really nervous. And we talk about a new relationship with Bill Gates and they're real friendly with Microsoft. Now, maybe there's a little hush hush deal where SeekOut will be okay, or they'll be able to access stuff like they normally are. Joel: But this clearly looks like a moat build, a monopoly grab by LinkedIn. And you can't blame them because everyone's letting them do it. Whether it's the justice system, the government, the consumers, this is where the... So number one on that is the prices are going to gonna go up. And unfortunately when we have monopolies, quality typically goes down. So don't expect a lot of innovation with those price increases, unfortunately at LinkedIn. Now, a little history lesson for the kids out there. Sourcing used to be this thing where the real freakazoids were doing it, right? The Shelleys, the Strouds, the Levy, like the Shannons. Joel: You'd go to these sessions in 2005 about 80 search engines to use that no one knows about to find people. And then, eventually, solutions were created to take the brainiac freakazoid sourcer out of the picture. Basically, you can be a common person, not know anything about boolean searches, and you can find people with our database. And that worked really well as long as LinkedIn played the game. LinkedIn's not playing the game anymore, so not only are the vendors gonna be at risk, but the people who are sourcers in quote, but not really sourcers like the Steve Levys of the world, what are they gonna do when they actually have to learn what those folks know? So I think we're gonna go back to the future where the freaks and geeks at SourceCon are now gonna be the ones that rule the world, 'cause you look at posters starting to go about, okay, LinkedIn has fucked us. How do we get around it? How do we do searches on Google and other places to like circumvent what's on LinkedIn? Joel: Because we all know LinkedIn's not gonna block Google's search or spiders 'cause they still need to be on linked or Google searches. So that's one thing. I think if you can leverage Google, like these folks know, then you're probably gonna be safe in terms of LinkedIn. So my points were simply like, we were super geeky. Then not so much, we're going back super geeky. Prices are going up, and I think if you're heading SourceCon, and I recently did a show with our friend Jim Strout, I think there's gonna be an escalated interest in what is sourcing tools and tricks and things are going out there, because a lot of people are gonna freak out when things they get from LinkedIn, they can't get anymore. Chad: Yeah. I think it's interesting because a lot of these tools probably have a database built that was LinkedIn in the first place. Now, the big difference is being able to enrich those profiles moving forward. But at least you have a base of information. This is going to, I believe, and I hope actually push the rest of it, the industry to stop being so fucking lazy, okay? We've talked about this several times. I remember talking to Gary Zukowski when he created TweetMyJobs, way back in the day when we were blasting jobs on Twitter. I asked Gary, I was like, "What happens, dude, if Twitter just cuts you off?" He's like, "Well, I'm fucked." [laughter] Chad: The exact same type of scenario. If you lean that hard on any other platform that you don't own or you don't have control over, you put yourself in this situation. So what this is going to do is it's gonna do a couple of different things. First and foremost, a lot of those bigger platforms already have the data. The question is, how do they now flip it into something that can be more enriching? And then we've gotta take a look at infrastructure, building new infrastructure. We've talked about that with CV Wallet. There's another reason to be able to escalate and amplify that type of platform. And last but not least, now, maybe employers, when they get stuck with this new bill, they'll start looking at who's actually using the platform, right? And they'll cut their seats in half. Joel: And hopefully this encourages or motivates employers to look at their own database that they've probably spent millions of dollars to build. That is their own little LinkedIn that they can access, as well as upskilling, training their folks so they don't leave, keeping retention high, getting off the teeth of LinkedIn is a good thing for everybody. Trust me, that evil, evil LinkedIn. SFX: I am as mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take this anymore. Joel: All right, let's go into some money and acquisition news, shall we? First up, England's Huler, I hardly even know her, has secured 1.5 million pounds in funding. The startup is a SaaS platform promising to simplify employee communications, and information access, emphasizing the goal of making work simple in the era of hybrid and remote work. The funding along with a previous round in December '22 brings Huler's total funding to 3.5 million pounds. Chad, your thoughts on Huler. Chad: Huler is doing for employee engagement through tying these atrocious UIs together or the HCM stack, let's say what Poetry is looking to do for recruiter enablement. So Adam Gordon, who we talked about earlier, happy birthday, he's building a recruiter desktop that pretty much pulls together all those different platforms so that a recruiter just has one place to go. This is a little bit deeper down the rabbit hole on the human capital management side of the house. And all of those platforms pretty much have shit UI. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Some might have halfways decent, but together, they're just horrible. So to be able to tie together great employee engagement is incredibly key in employee experience, and then in employee engagement. So I think platforms like this are incredibly smart, as we've talked about it for years, is it smart trying to become the platform that rules them all? No, I have pivoted from that hard. It is the platform that ties together all of the other platforms. It's a hell of a lot easier to build. It's not easy, but it's easier to build. And from a fluidity standpoint, tech debt standpoint, it's easier to maintain. Joel: Yeah. So this largely feels like a feature to a lot of businesses, I think, that have money that can buy products like this, you look at, you mentioned Adam Gordon. Look, this is a great product. To give employees a tool where they can take everything that they wanna know, whether it's education, other employee activities, you name it, they can bring it in one platform, they can kind of customize that to whatever they want. Being a remote or hybrid workforce, people are not in the office like they used to be. So a tool like this makes a lot of sense. I just think the goal of this company is not to be a product, but more of a feature that an ATS or a paradox potentially could create as an extension of what they are already doing. So, not a ton of money, not a lot of heat here, but I think potentially, an acquisition play in the next 48 to 72 months. Chad: I think it's genius, to be quite frank. You've got all these different UIs that are shit, you tie them together, and you make them beautiful, and that's how you get people to actually use your platforms. And that's one of the issues that we have adoption for many of the users that are out there. Why? Because it's clunky, it's shitty, it's horrible. If you have them go through the same experience, and it's nice and it's fluid. Again, we're humans. We like to look at pretty stuff. This just makes it a lot easier. Joel: All right. Ceridian, a small little company, you may have heard of them, is set to acquire Alumni, a learning experience platform provider. The move aligns with the growing global learning management system market estimated to reach 55 billion by 2032. Chad, your thoughts on this move by Ceridian. Chad: So, we're gonna start to see big lumbering systems like Ceridian gobble up other proven platforms like Alumni as a way to eject pieces, parts of their old tech into the ether. So instead of ditching an old system and building from the ground up, Ceridian is amputating a limb, and replacing it with a bionic limb. So the hard part is when Ceridian has to replace the heart of the system, because you can replace all the limbs, but the core, the heart that drives everything, that's gonna be the hard part. So what we're seeing here is a basic evolution. I like the whole $6 million man kinda scenario, but you still have to replace the core someday. How are they going to do that? That's going to be the hard part for Ceridian, but very smart. Joel: Totally agree. Look, we've talked on many episodes about this being the year of M&A. You're gonna have a lot of companies that have run out of money. A lot of startups are like, what's our next move? Raising money isn't what it was like in 2021. It's not flowing like it was. So our next move is probably an acquisition. So for these guys, a Ceridian makes perfect sense for Ceridian. It makes perfect sense as well. We talked about LinkedIn having more control, so bringing stuff back in upskilling, educating, retaining employees in the way that Alumni's product does, makes total sense. And we're gonna have a lot of stories like this going into the future. Probably, a little bit of an Acquihire as well. Big companies can bring really good employees, startup founders, et cetera to the company for a pretty small price tag from what they would normally have to do. Joel: Anyway, by the way, the market Wall Street loved this move. The stock was up quite a bit after the announcement. So Wall Street as well, likes what Ceridian is doing in addition to Chad and Cheese. All right, next up, New York based FinTech Daily Pay has raised $75 million in equity financing, and the company secured a $100 million expansion of its credit facility. The latest equity raise, valued Daily Pay at $1.75 billion on a pre-money basis, marking a 75% increase. Chad: Wow. Joel: Yeah. Daily pay, which offers an on-demand pay solution for corporate plans to use the funds to accelerate product development and expand into new markets and categories. Chad, your thoughts on getting paid daily? Chad: So this is Ceridian's next acquisition. Joel: That's a bigger acquisition. Yeah. Chad: Yes, it's a big core next gen pay system. Let's say ADP. You wanna add, again, these next gen pay systems to your stack. And again, you get rid of that old system. You put on the new system or you obviously use it in conjunction with, but at the end of the day, this is literally just an upgrade in your capabilities. And this, we're gonna see it over and over and over as these big monolith systems start to replace old, dilapidated tech. Joel: So, when Chad and I were growing up, if we wanted to watch a show, let's call it Married with Children. We wanted to watch Al Bundy and Kelly and the gang, we had to wait. We had to wait a week till the show came out. If it wasn't in season, we had to wait four months, five months for the new season to come out. Nobody thinks like that anymore. People think, I wanna watch this. Like, give it to me now. Whether I'm on the go, I'm at home, wherever, I want it right now. Chad: On demand. Joel: And pay is no different. My 17-year-old gets paid every two weeks, and on that two week, like sort of milestone, because it goes in his savings, which I control, he's on my ass asking about where's my money, bitch? He should be getting paid daily or whenever he wants after he works a shift. This is just a sign of the times, and this is where stuff is going. I think additionally, this is gonna be the brand that is the coke of the sort of daily pay on demand solutions. They're talking about IPO in 2025. I totally, like... When you are at 75% increase in valuation, clearly you have told a story that says, "We are going to grow immensely in the next year." Chad: Next gen baby. Yeah, it is. Joel: So say those nuggets, we don't give stock advice, but this is a stock that is gonna be one I think that will excite a lot of people, 'cause it goes beyond recruiting. It's like a lifestyle. This is a change. This is a sea change in how people are paid, and good on them. Good on them. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Excited, exciting company and looking forward to talking about them more in the future. Alright. Bold.com, BOLD, has acquired FlexJobs. Terms were not disclosed. FlexJobs, based in Colorado, and founded in 2007, offers a database of remote and flexible job listings that are hand-screened for legitimacy. The brand is expected to be preserved under Bold.com's ownership. Chad, your thoughts? Chad: I think the hand screen thing's gonna go away. And bold.com, that's a great domain... Joel: It's not bad. Chad: But I've never heard of these guys, have you? Joel: Out of Puerto Rico. How often do we talk about a Puerto Rican company? Chad: 700 global employees. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Just amazing. Anyway, FlexJobs launched in 2006 with a single round of funding and before a remote and hybrid was really a thing. So they waited patiently and they got their payday. And we talk a lot about startups on this show, but I'd like to say there are amazing smaller job sites and recruitment tools that have been around for years, that provide great services, and more importantly, clear mad cash every month. Not every company has to go public to be successful, so kudos to Sarah Sutton and FlexJobs. And it'd be interesting to see what Bold actually does to the site, 'cause I can guarantee you there's not gonna be hand-ringing or shifting or sifting or any of that that's gonna be happening. They're gonna make this more of an inefficient platform. Joel: Yeah, it's a curious acquisition. I remember FlexJobs when they launched back when I was writing GSAT, and it was sort of lack of better word, it was kind of bold at the time, you know, laptops, wifi at the coffee shop. We just started thinking about working remotely and being flexible with... Particularly mothers working from home, and then going like, it was a cute idea, and it took like technology where it is today, the pandemic for these guys really to get any kind of exposure. I think it was almost a lifestyle business. I don't know them that well. So this felt like they've been in business for almost 20 years. There was no big swings. There was no big raises. Even when they could've in 2021, a site called FlexJobs that had been around since the mid aughts could have raised money. No joke. Joel: So to me, this felt like a lifestyle business maybe after 20 years. She said it's time to move on, and there was a relationship there for whatever reason, and Bold came knocking. Really strange company out of Puerto Rico. I think they have Warsaw, Poland office, and somewhere else. So we should dig in a little more about bold.com and what they're doing, 'cause it is a great domain, and maybe they've just been under the radar. But yeah, this is kind of a curious one. It's not one of those round pegs in a round hole that makes sense to us. It's a little bit interesting. So yeah, I got nothing else but that. Chad: She might have enough money banked that she can just go off and do whatever the hell she wants for the rest of her life. A lot of these smaller job sites, they're raking in cash because they have low amount of employees. Not much overhead, and they are making money hand over fist with regard to obviously in proportionality of having a very small staff. Joel: Sure. Chad: So being able to sock away cash, hell, she might, who knows, she might be one of the richest people we don't know. Joel: Yeah. These are the frozen yogurt shops in your local community. The entrepreneur that has five shops and is banking $10 million net pay every year. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. It totally could be... Chad: Success baby. Joel: A story like that. Look, she was the first one, flexible job, so she had companies early 'cause she was the only game in town kind of doing this. They probably stuck with her for 20 years and then she ended up getting new customers, and maybe she said, "Screw it, I'm out. I'm done after 20 years." So good on her, if that's the case. Chad: Congrats to Sarah. Joel: Another person having a good week is President Joe Biden. Let's talk about him after the break. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Alright, Chad, let's talk about Uncle Joe. The United Auto Workers have endorsed President Joe Biden for reelection. Despite earlier resistance, the endorsement comes after Biden's support during a UAW picket line. Union boss, Shawn Fain criticized former President Trump, emphasizing Biden's commitment to the American worker. Another Biden news, robocalls went out ahead of the New Hampshire election, featuring Joe Biden's voice, and I put voice in quotes there, telling people to save their vote for November in the general election, and to skip the primary. Clearly, AI's evil hand at work. Chad, your thoughts on all things Joe, this week. Chad: Well, I thought it was pretty amazing. He wasn't even on the ballot in New Hampshire. You had to write him in, and he still won 75% of the votes. Joel: Yep. Chad: That's pretty fucking big. But when it comes to the robocall stuff, kids, strap it on, 'cause we're just getting started. The election cycle will have people questioning what's real and what's not. We, the Chad and Cheese Podcast, we're working with a reputable company, Veritone, who cloned our voices for use in Portuguese, German, Spanish, and French versions of this show. But some platforms allow you to upload any voice or video, no matter if you have rights or not. So this is just the beginning, and a lot of these AI companies are saying, well they're using the impersonators defense. Well, for years, we've had voice impersonators doing this. Chad: Well, okay, we're going to have to draw a line somewhere on where somebody owns their voice, they own their likeness, because this is going to get way, way, way out of the field very quickly. And when it comes to the UAW, the first president to join a picket line, Trump went to a non-union shop and talked shit about the Union. [laughter] So what did you expect Shawn Fain to do? And what did you expect him to do? He's already... Motherfucker's already got a chip on his shoulder as it is. And he said, Donald Trump stands against everything we stand for as a society. SFX: That escalated quickly. Chad: Damn, that's big. Now, the UAW isn't as big as they used to be, but they are on a march to get bigger. Joel: So on the the election side, we kind of talked about this that hit, sort of Biden being the figurehead and doing at least the optics of that were very positive for him. And either one of us or both of us said, look, if the UAW ends up winning this, and Biden is attached to it, it's gonna be huge for the election in Joe Biden. And here we are, right? Here we are with the endorsement. Let's make it official. Some critics said it took longer than they thought. And my guess is there's some sort of backroom negotiation, like sort of knowing how Shawn Fain operates, there might've been some real like screw it in some negotiation tactics to get something that he wanted or the union wanted. Joel: So look, news media outlets are great about, "Hey, here's the national poll. Trump is leading, it's closing the gap." People in this country, and particularly outside of the country, who is president, is basically a decision that five or so states make. And within those five or so states, it's a few precincts and counties that decide who the president is. So when you hear like national polls, who cares? It's not a popular vote, right? There's a system here, and Michigan is one of those states that's gonna decide who the president is in 2024. And Chad, as you mentioned, the Union is smaller than it used to be. Joel: However, there are old union guys and girls that may not be working, but still respect the union. There are families that are attached to these workers. So, take each worker and maybe plus five if you include family and again, whatever. So, if Fain and the Union can bring Michigan to Biden, that may be game over for the presidency. So, this is really, really huge to me for the election of 2024. Now on the AI, yeah, strap on, buckle up, bend over, whatever you wanna use. Chad: Yeah. Get ready kids. Joel: But this is just starting, man. And I can tell you, people my dad's age, our parents' age will have no clue. When they get a call from Joe Biden or Donald Trump, they're gonna freak out thinking it's really Donald Trump or Joe Biden. They won't know. By the way, governor's races, Senate races, congressional races, you don't have to be president to do this. And somebody going to call from their local congressman, you're like, "Oh shit, I've heard him on TV or heard on the news. And wow, you're really calling me?" People will not put the two and two together. Joel: So, this is super dangerous. And when you look at... Trump has been pretty clear on Ukraine funding, getting out of that situation. So, if I'm Vladimir Putin, I'm calling all my cyber punks and saying like, "How do we get people persuaded to get Trump in office?" He's also been very anti-NATO in many respects. So, Russia is going to be on the offensive on this. And by the way, who owns TikTok? Oh, the Chinese. Well, the Chinese might have a vested interest in Russia benefiting from who gets an office and what happens there. So, I foresee some crazy stuff. 80% of it won't get reported or noticed. It'll be calls to grandma that no one hears or sees. It'll be like a social media post to a newly 18-year-old that doesn't know any better. This is going to get really bad and it'll be a problem we have to address in 2028. It may potentially like rock the election this year. I'm a little scared, frankly. Chad: Well, I mean, we saw what social media did with Cambridge Analytica. And that is nothing compared to this shit. So, yeah, we shall see. And it's not just the Biden voices or the Trump voices, we're talking about celebrities that people know and love and whatnot, right? Who might have a high ranking or rating or what have you. You're just not sure. So, be aware, kids. Be aware. Joel: Yeah, it's gonna be crazy. All right, shit. All right, from one car crash to another. The future of Sports Illustrated is uncertain as publisher The Arena Group lost the license for the iconic US sports periodical slash magazine. The Arena Group, which had a 10-year licensing deal with owner Authentic Brands Group, reportedly missed a $3.7 million payment leading to the termination of the agreement. As a result, Arena announced layoffs for almost all SI staff. This comes after SI was discovered publishing pieces under fake author names, speaking of naughty AI, and profile images that were generated by AI for the quote-unquote authors. The future of SI remains uncertain, pending negotiations within the next 90 days. Chad, your take on SI and frankly, what may be a sign of things to come for media in general? Chad: Yeah, I think SI is dead at this point. And a lot of this has to do with failed business models. It doesn't have to do with content. Okay? And that's one of the things that we have to understand is that I don't believe that Bard or Chad GPT has what is necessary to make these publications rock and roll. 'Cause let's say, for instance, like SI was a staple for anyone who cared deeply about sports. How did you know what somebody loved sports? Well, you went to their house and you saw that they had a Sports Illustrated on the coffee table. They had a subscription. Joel: SI had thoughtful and knowledgeable journalists that had deep connections into teams, scouts, players, leadership. They knew what was going on. They had the DNA of sports, right? Bard's not gonna have that. Chad GPT is not gonna have that. And this is just, we're just going to talk about a microcosm of sports for all of journalism. This is the key. The tech doesn't have these types of connections, right? These relationships, these insiders or the experience. So for me, I really think that what we have to do, especially from a journalism and news outlets standpoint, is we have to take a look at these new business models because if we do lean heavy into Chad GPT and Bard or any large language model, it's just gonna all start coming out as generic shit. Chad: And that's what's gonna happen. It's kind of like music for a while on adult contemporary radio stations. It sounded like the same shit over and over and over. That's what's gonna happen. So I think we'll take a look at business models, change business models, and people will still have a role. Joel: I cannot underestimate how important Sports Illustrated was to my childhood. Only Playboy as a magazine had more of an impact on who I was. Chad: Talking about the swimsuit edition. Is that what you're talking about? Joel: Well, yeah, just that one. No. Although I didn't have to sneak SI from my dad to check it out. All you kids on Pornhub, remember how lucky you are to have on-demand porn. Anyway, I used to cut out the covers and put them on my wall. I remember Celtic Pride with Larry Bird putting on the wall. Anyway, it was a staple in my upbringing. They just didn't change with the times. We've got Barstool and other online components. You have sites and services like that that have now given us Pat McAfee and celebrities that are now putting content out that is more digestible, fun, controversial, etcetera. Joel: And there's just less room for real journalism. But I do think that more and more of this automated content creation, even if it's a hybrid of like, hey, we have enough stories that look human and are nuanced enough that we can throw in this crap and just keep the Google gods happy by creating content. So SI is just sort of the tip of the iceberg, the canary in the coal mine. I think this is going to be a story that we continue to talk about. I know the LA Times had a big layoff, I think, this week. So we're gonna see local papers. And by the way, local news media has been gutted. These political stories locally, the Castro congressman, local media knew about that. They just couldn't get it out. There wasn't a paper that everyone read that they could learn about this guy. Chad: It's all business model. It's all business model. They were paid by the fucking classifieds, which are dead. If they would have found a different stream of revenue, we would not be having this discussion. It's business model, period. Joel: It's too late. Chad: This is all great stuff. I don't think it's too late. I think there could be a revival. Joel: I love your optimism. I love your optimism. Chad: That's why I'm here. Joel: Listen to an ad and we'll be right back, people. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: All right, Chad, can I interest you in some Google as our final story? Chad: Oh, yes, please. Weird. Joel: Little pivot there. I wanted to talk about a farting airline passenger, but Chad wanted to talk about Google. So here we go. Chad: Sorry listeners, sorry. Joel: Google is attempting to reduce its workforce in South Korea, but some employees are refusing to resign. About 10 out of roughly 800 workers in Seoul accepted the company's suggestion to resign, but Korean labor laws may protect them from dismissal without just cause. Google has faced industry-wide layoffs leading to the formation of a union of 100 workers in Korea to address job security concerns. The union aims to negotiate voluntary resignations with the company rather than workers accepting recommended resignations from Big G. Chad, what are your thoughts on what sounds like an action movie from the 80s? Bruce Willis needs to come in and save these workers. What you got? Chad: We just heard Brittany earlier during shout outs talk about, well, because you over hired, now you fucked me. Bloating staff is purely irresponsible. We've seen all these companies who... A lot of the FANG companies, they bloated their ranks because they had the money to, and because they obviously trying to steal or at least keep great talent away from their competitors. That's irresponsible. They were bloating their ranks, hiring staff to keep them away from your competitors. That's anti-competitive. That is totally anti-competitive. Chad: So what has Google done here in America? Well, like all the other FANG companies, they just go to a pure layoff. If we had a system like this, they couldn't do that. They couldn't do that. They would have to be responsible. What do we do to ensure that companies like Google become responsible and curb anti-competitive measures? Well, it sounds like countries like South Korea and France have the answer. There are consequences to business actions, but unfortunately, the consequences only fall on the employee, not the employer. These types of measures would make companies think twice about who they hire, how they hire, and being more responsible. We focus way too much on the shareholder, although in this case, this brings the shareholder and the stakeholder together. We have to focus on the shareholder and we have to focus on the stakeholder, the employees, because if we don't, we might just have to keep them around. Joel: Come on, Google. Come on, Google. Chad: It's fucking awesome. Joel: So culturally, whether you agree or not, America is really good at firing people. There are very little government regulations... Chad: Not CEOs, though. Joel: Yeah. Well, yes. There are golden parachutes that workers typically don't get, but we are really good at hiring fast and firing fast. And when American companies take that mentality to Europe, parts of Asia, etcetera, and they think they can just lay off people, I love these suggestions. We're suggesting that you leave the company immediately. Chad: Yeah, you resign. Joel: Culturally, it just doesn't vibe with what Americans consider. And American companies need to start thinking, hey, if we're setting up shop in this country, what are we getting into? To Chad's point, let's slow down the hiring. Let's be thoughtful around this, because it's going to be really hard to fire these people if we make a mistake. Chad: Do that here. Joel: Oh, that's not gonna happen here. Chad: Do that here. Joel: No, it ain't happening. Chad: That's so much bullshit, though. Joel: There's no government reality that I could ever think about in America where we turn into something like that. Chad: Yeah, 'cause we don't give a shit about our employees. That's the problem. Joel: Yeah. All right, Chad, I'm pulling an audible. I'm talking about the farting guy on the airlines. Okay. Real quickly, an American Airlines flight from Phoenix to Austin was reportedly delayed when a passenger loudly passed gas and engaged in a confrontational exchange with others. [laughter] The incident led to the plane returning to the gate and the gassy passenger was removed from the flight. The confrontation caused a delay of up to 30 minutes. I mean, what a butthole. You know what I'm saying? Am I right? Can we all just breathe a sigh of relief that this issue came to a close? And by the way, when is Elon going to take us all to Uranus? We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Chase podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

In this episode, we discuss the acquisition of Pento, a Copenhagen-born payroll automation platform, by HiBob, an Israeli-based HRIS. The terms of the deal remain undisclosed, but the acquisition aims to create an all-in-one solution, streamlining the entire payroll workflow. Founded in 2017, Pento had raised around $54 million. The acquisition is expected to save time for various teams by simplifying the traditionally cumbersome payroll process. We also delve into the latest earnings reports from various companies in the HR and recruiting industry. Recruit Holdings reported a decrease in revenue due to a contraction in hiring activities in the U.S. and Europe. DHI Group, the owners of Dice and Clearance Jobs, experienced a decline in revenue, primarily driven by a decrease in revenue from Dice. Randstad reported a drop in revenue, attributing it to global economic uncertainty. Monster revenue was also down. Despite a roaring U.S. economy, these companies are facing challenges, including upskilling, less job-hopping, and the need for internal networking. In other news, the Biden administration announced a $5 billion investment to support research and development in advanced computer chips. This initiative aims to reverse the decline in the U.S. semiconductor manufacturing industry and boost domestic production of advanced semiconductors. However, companies are struggling to adapt quickly enough to a convergence of tech, generational turnover, and the fast pace of change. About 44% of workers' skills are set to be disrupted in the next five years, and about 60% of workers will require training in the next three years. Jobster, the company behind the world's first predictive job advertising platform, is making a comeback. Jobster, first famous in the mid-2000s, is now back under new ownership. The return of Jobster could signal a new programmatic ad solution in the job market. Lastly, Neon Money Club, a fintech platform, has launched a new dating app called Score, which requires users to have a credit score of at least 675. Users who are denied access will be directed to resources to improve their financial literacy and credit scores. The app has received mixed reactions due to its exclusionary nature, with some viewing it as aspirational and others seeing it as perpetuating class divides. Neon Money Club has raised over $10 million in venture capital and is the first Black-owned tech business to launch a credit card with AMEX. Intro: Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Jean podcast. [music] Joel: Ohhhh yeah. The two guys who should have been the ones interviewing Vladimir Putin. What's up, kids? You are listening to the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Rasputin Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad. One-arm bandit, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, Bob buys a Pento, Jobster is back, and Neon Money Club wants you to score. Let's do this. Welcome back Chad, we missed you last week. For our listeners that don't know, man, what was up? Chad: After years of sports and military and fighting and all that shit, my shoulder's fucked up. I got a slap tear, I got rotator cuff stuff, I need a bicep ligament thing. So my doctor said, hey, you'll be good, you'll be good, but you'll probably have to get it done in 10 years. I'm like, oh no, fuck that. I'm getting that shit done now. I'm getting it done now. So that's what I had done. Joel: And was this outpatient? Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: That sounds like a lot of stuff. Biceps, shoulder? Chad: I came home, they did a shoulder block on me, so if you do any type of shoulder surgery whatsoever, if they ask you if you want a shoulder block, say yes. That's a definite. But I had a shoulder block done, I came home, the shoulder block wore off, I thought I was gonna be in major pain. I literally have not taken any pain meds. The modern medical establishment is wonderful, at least right now, knock on wood. But I wanna thank Serge for stepping in for me. That was nice of him on a short notice. Joel: Yeah, did you appreciate his Chad impersonation? Chad: I did, no, I appreciate that. Joel: Gotcha. So a nerve block is what I should ask for. Chad: Yeah, it was just literally, there's a bundle, a nerve bundle there, and they just hit it with a bunch of pain blocker. Joel: So not the cock block is what you're saying. Chad: No, that's what you're used to, but no, I would go beyond that. Yes. Oh. [laughter] Joel: You're bad, you're so bad, you're so bad. All right, well, I hope you're okay to watch the game. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: The big Super Bowl. [overlapping conversation] Joel: What was your take? America needs to know what your takeaway was from the game. Chad: Yeah, I mean, my prediction was a lazy prediction, 21-28 Kansas City. Kansas City ended up winning 22-25. It was a defensive struggle. The first quarter was brutal. I mean, they were filling each other out. It was like a first date in a Pinto. I mean, at the drive-in. But Mahomes, he had 333 yards, eight different receivers, none of those receivers went over 100 yards. Mahomes was the rushing leader for Kansas City. Then Brock Purdy, for the 49ers, he had eight different receivers. None of them went over 100 yards. McCaffrey didn't even get 100 yards. So, I mean, that just told you how damn good those defenses were. Those quarterbacks, premier quarterbacks. And I mean, Purdy is, he's a new kid. But he's playing damn good ball. And they had to do a lot. And they had to use a lot to be able to win, especially Kansas City. Joel: So game-wise, I didn't think it'd be high scoring. I predicted 24-21. So 22-25 is pretty damn close to being exact. But I didn't... People were saying like 38-34. I said, I don't think it's gonna be, these are good defenses. Chad: Yes. Joel: I just always thought that, and this is what the best quarterbacks do when the game is on the line, when it's like, you gotta get the first down, you gotta get, like Mahomes is that guy. And when you said the rushing yards, it was that rush he had on third down, I think, that really put him in position to make the move at the end. So it was a great game. You don't see many overtimes. That was awesome. There was a lot of criticism of Romo at the end, who started like mansplaining overtime, and didn't give like the color guy the chance to really call the play, sort of a la bird steals the ball, something like really historic. So that was kind of funny for me, Romo-wise. What did you think of the commercials? Chad: You know what, I hated the fucking commercials and here's why. It seemed like they never stopped, is like CBS was, they were using their commentators and their early NFL show guys to do commercials too. So you never knew when you're in a commercial, and you're like, oh fuck, it's another commercial. So it's like they never stopped. And it's one thing that I've noticed in watching a lot of European football, is like they don't have commercials, hardly at all. So when they start watching American football, they fucking freak out, because it's nothing but commercials. And that's what I felt like. I was like, Jesus, this is the first time I've actually watched a Super Bowl where I didn't wanna see more commercials. Usually I wanna see the commercials because they're spending so much money, so much brain power. This time I'm like, fuck, this is horrible, stop this. Just play the fucking game. Joel: Well again, that's defenses. So when it's all three and out, you go to a commercial break, and then they're going to commercial breaks because the defense has played so well. I agree that they just sort of bled together. Like every time you looked up, there was more commercials. There wasn't a lot of I'm on the tip of my seat waiting for more commercials. But I will say like, I did love the BMW walk-in, talking like walk-in, partly because he's part of our show, technically. I did love the DeVito-Arnold reunion a la Twins in the state font, like a good neighbor. Oh, no it's neighbour. That way pretty good. Chad: Yeah, neighbor, no neighbor, neighbor. Joel: I felt like Bud Light got it right with comedy. That's what they should be doing, making us laugh. So the beer genie, then they threw in Peyton Manning like they should have, like he doesn't belong here, but now he is, as opposed to like, he's throwing Bud Lights to people. And then I did love, because you and I both really liked a few years back, the Audi commercial with the girl who was the race car driver. Like I certainly choked up. And this year, Dove had their Hard Knocks commercial where they talked about girls and being very conscious about the way they look and their bodies, and that 45% of girls leave sports by the age of 14. And Stella has gotten out of volleyball, oddly enough, at the age of 14. And I know Emma also, at a similar age, got out of soccer. So that kind of hit home for me, like, oh, am I missing something? Like obviously we're blind to everything. So I thought, oh man, is this a thing? So it got me really thinking, which most commercials do not. So shout out to those commercials. The halftime show, I don't know what to think of that. It was so over the top, I liked it, but then it was so over the top that I'm like, damn, just play the songs, man. He's on roller skates, he's taking his shirt off, he's got like an ab shirt that glows in the dark. Chad: I thought he was gonna totally bite it, dude. So when he came out at first and he had that, like, the mic that he had on wasn't working, and then he did a change, and then he had a handheld mic, because they're like, your shit's not working, here's a handheld mic. Then everything, I think, was awesome since then. Luda came on, I mean, you just had, I really liked it. And usually I'm not a big halftime show guy, other than Prince, Prince does, his halftime show was the best of all time, period. But I liked it. Joel: Yeah, if you're gonna do one up on Usher and skates, you gotta do high heels with Prince in a rainstorm. Like, how he didn't slip blows me away. Chad: Fucking pro, dude. Joel: I liked it because I couldn't take my eyes off of it. Usually on these things, like, I'll kinda look away, and if I know a song I like, I'll check it. I was glued, who's next, who's coming up, what's gonna blow, like, what's gonna happen. So all around it was A plus Super Bowl, I think, from the game to the, you hate the commercials, so that'll be a ding on you, but the halftime show was all, it was all good, it was all good. It's like a weekly show of Chad and Cheese. You only get it once a year. Chad: Yes, yes. But you only get it once a year. I've also gotten spoiled, because when I'm in Europe, I watch all the games in their, like, encapsulated form on YouTube, so they're like 13 minutes long. And now I'm getting kind of like in that no commercial kind of vibe. But yeah, no, it was a great game. I really enjoyed the game. I love defensive battles. Joel: All right, let's get to some shout outs. SFX: Shout outs! Joel: We've got some show to do here, Sowash, and there's a lot to talk about. I'm gonna start with Waymo. Chad, yes, the robots, the automated beings among us took another hit last week. Waymo, the self-driving car owned by Google, I don't know if you saw this, was set on fire by some rabble rousers in San Francisco. It's Lunar New Year. San Francisco has a very large Chinese population. Apparently, the car got confused by the fireworks that were going off. I can't blame the developers for not planning on fireworks and sort of planning for that, but the car stopped, got confused. People said, let's break windows, let's set fireworks off in the car, which then set the car on fire, and there's tons of images and video, like people were taking tons of video. Everyone was really good about hiding their face, so everyone's kind of onto the self-journalistic trend that's going on. But damn, Waymo, man, that sucks, and we keep talking about this, whether it's the janitorial Walmart robot that someone takes a Louisville slug or two, or the wheeled food delivery robots that people steal food out of and take a Domino's and ride around town. I mean, this is a problem. This is a big problem. This is why we can't have nice things, people. Chad: It's exactly why we can't have nice things. Son of a bitch, man. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, you think robots are gonna take over? I don't think so, because we got people with baseball bats. Okay, my shout out goes to our favorite Scott. SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, if it's no Scottish, it's crap. Chad: That is Stephen McGrath for starting a new position as Product Experience Manager, I have no fucking clue what that means, at Poetry on March 1st. And I'd like to say, Adam Gordon, my friend, for the love of God and all that's holy, please get Stephen off the damn couch and get him to work. Joel: Yeah, what's Stephen's title again? How many bottles of scotch should they go through before coming up with that? Chad: Product Experience Manager, so PXM. Joel: Sure, sure, I like it. Almost as good as Stephen McGrath's videos in getting him off the couch in a new opportunity. It's free stuff from Chad and Cheese, that's right, Chad. We're giving away t-shirts, we're giving away bourbon. Our friends at Tex Colonel are sponsoring that endeavor. Free beer from Aspen Tech Labs. We got our winners from the month to announce. We got John Middleton was our whiskey winner, Roy Schumacher of Aaron is the beer winner, and Scott Stam celebrated a birthday this month, Chad, and I don't know if I mentioned, but if it's your birthday month, you could win a bottle of rum from our friends at Plum. SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: Congratulations, Scott Stam for winning a nice bottle of rum you could be the next winner, but you gotta play if you wanna win. You gotta head out to chadcheese.com and click the free link and fill it out. Fill out the form and there's your chance to win. Also celebrating a birthday this week goes to listeners Andrew Mall, Jenny, JCK, New Earth, Charles Bretts, Laura Washington, Jim Carragher, Ted Grunewald, Nicole, Nancy McKeon, Farrah Fawcett-Reeves, Allie McBeal-Mergest, Kevin Burgess, Kristi Turnley, and Charlottes Web Ulvros, our friend out in Sweden, celebrating a birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: So have one on us, everybody. Chad: Very nice. Well, it's also time for events. We're getting ready to go out to Vegas for Transform March 11th through 14th, where we're going to be at the win. We're talking about over 3000 attendees, 100 plus investors, more than 500 startups, and over 300 speakers. Not to mention, we were just talking about free. Oh, yeah, we're giving away free tickets. Five free tickets to Transform. Just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Win Free Tickets button. SFX: Oops, winning. Chad: Win free tickets. And then register for free stuff while you're at it. Then we're going to Europe, Amsterdam, kids. [music] Chad: Yes, we're hopping on a plane. And yes, this is the official eRecruitment Congress Kibu synthesizer playlist. Joel: Is Jan Hammer not available? Is that? [laughter] Chad: Have to ask Lieven. Have to ask Lieven. He's really excited that this synthesizer guy is going to Kibu, I'm sorry, Kibu, is going to close out the session. But on March 19th, it's the eRecruitment Congress in Amsterdam, where the knowledge will be flowing. And from my understanding, so will the Belgian beer that Lieven will be bringing in a barrel or barrels. It's a full day in Amsterdam dedicated to filling your brain pan with knowledge around the AI shift in recruitment and technology. Just go to chadcheese.com/events. And guess what? Joel: What? Chad: For that event, there's also a discount code. Joel: There is? Chad: Yes. Joel: Where can I find that discount code, Chad? Chad: He wasn't very happy. It's on chadcheese.com/events. We made Lieven give us a discount code. He was not happy. They're very frugal over there in Belgium. Just go to chadcheese.com/events in the header. You're actually going to see the discount code. Register, use the discount code, ba-bam, discount. Joel: We threatened to make him drink a Heineken in Amsterdam. And he said, no, I'll give you the code. I'll give you the code. Don't make me drink a Heineken, Jesus. Chad: You're welcome, you're welcome. Joel: By the way, unleash, get Magic Johnson to speak in terms of events. Like that's huge. Chad: That's big. Joel: That's huge. Can we get an interview with Magic? [music] SFX: Stop it! Joel: Questions for Magic. Chad: I've got breaking news. I've got breaking news. Joel: What? Chad: Just coming over on the phone right before we started. Apparently, SmartRecruiters botched an acquisition. That's right. Smart recruiters botched an acquisition. I just received that news from several sources. The acquisition of SmartRecruiters last minute fell through. So to be clear, SmartRecruiters, the applicant tracking system, was looking at being acquired by another applicant tracking system, and it fell through. So this literally just dropped in my lap, and that's all the information I have. And we have reported that many key leaders on the SmartRecruiter staff have left over the past few months. So the question is, since this deal fell through, are they going to reorg? What are they going to do? Because they have to do something to pivot from this botched acquisition. Joel: So just to be clear, this wasn't an acquisition they made and announced but then fell through in the final hour. They were going to get acquired. SmartRecruiters were going to get acquired, which would have been probably our lead story had that happened. And we don't know who it was. That was the acquirer. Chad: It was another applicant tracking system. That's all I know. Joel: It wasn't a merger thingy. We're like two similar size, let's snuggle up. So the asteroid that hit us can kill us more slowly. What do they do? Obviously, I don't know what caused the deal to fall through. I mean, in these things, it could be as easily as a personality difference. So if the business is okay, and worth a look, there's no question these ATSs are going to consolidate. I mean, we're seeing it with Lever. I mean, we're seeing this, it's going to happen. Employee here at home with Jazz, it's going to happen. So someone's going to buy it. They're not going to go public. They're going to be acquired. It's probably more of a merger thing that's going to happen. ISIMS could be on. I mean, iSIMS had leadership change. I mean, they have money behind them to do that. I mean, a workday. Yeah, I don't know. But people are going to take these pieces off the board. And SmartRecruiters is one of them, apparently. It's going to happen eventually, whether it's this acquirer or not. Chad: Well, we will have more information, I'm sure, in coming weeks. But again, this literally just hit my phone. So I wanted to be able to throw it out at the listeners. Joel: This is rumor. Let's put that out there. It's nothing. So no news releases. Chad: This is rumor. I've got more than one source that came to me with this information. So it is a rumor, although I have had several sources come to me with the information. Joel: OK, interesting, interesting. Well, maybe HiBob bought, or the deal fell through with them. They're the first news story, the official news story. So Pento, Copenhagen board, London-based payroll automation platform was acquired by HiBob, an Israeli-based HRIS. The terms of the deal remain undisclosed. The acquisition promises to create an all-in-one solution, streamlining the entire payroll flow and saving time for various teams. Founded in 2017, Pento had raised around $54 million. Chad, what are your thoughts on Bob getting a brand new Pento? And a side note, I dated a girl who drove a Pinto in high school. And I got to tell you, the backseat is bigger than you think it would be, just saying. Chad: It allowed for more junk in the trunk, from what I understand. Joel: That's right. More cushion in my portion. Chad: Here's a quote from the article. "The companies did not disclose the exact value of the purchase, but it is estimated to be around 40 million in shares and cash." So as you had said, Crunchbase shows 54 million in total funding, 35 million in Series B from Tiger Global in December of 2021. And we're talking about an estimated 40 million shares in cash. So this looks to be a distressed company who needed a deal to make sure that the company could continue breathing and HiBob seems to be the respirator for Pento. And let's face it, startups all over the globe are either approaching distress or they're in distress right now. And here's a problem I saw with Pento. Their core pricing was $5 per employee per month up to 30 employees max. So let's say that all 400 customers fit into that core pricing bucket. Chad: They probably didn't, but let's just say that that's $60,000 per month, or I'm sorry, 60,000 pounds per month at 720,000 pounds per year, not even a million pounds per year. So from the Tech.eu article, "According to Pento, it reduced payment processing from weeks to minutes for more than 400 of its UK customers." So the list of Pento deliverables for a company with 30 employees or less is long, plus you're reducing the payment processing for weeks to minutes and only for only 150 pounds a month. So I understand that companies create these three-tiered pricing systems with an almost free version, and then they try to entice customers to use their product. But it costs the organization money to expend so many resources on that specific product, even if it's said to be "automation." So they have to focus on actual products that drive organization toward profitability. So here's what I expect. I expect HiBob to restructure pricing. They'll just go ahead and consume everything that Pento was. They will redistribute in new form and they will actually make it profitable for the organization. They have a large portfolio of companies that are already using the platform. This is going to be a new service. This is what I think, and they will make it so it's actually profitable. Where in this case, what I'm seeing from Pento is this was bargain basement shit, and it came and bit them in the ass. Joel: Yeah. I think the payroll business really sucks. Aside from background checks, it's a pretty shitty business that a few companies that are huge make margins on and make money on the paychecks of the world, the pay cores, etcetera. So like out of the gate, it's a really tough business. I mean, 400 companies using it with this kind of investment money is not a huge amount of customers. Chad: No. They're not. Joel: We don't know what size those customers are. Yeah. This was clearly a business that had, I guess the eight-ball in front of it from the get go. And when you look at HiBob, they probably needed this solution. It's one of the things that they don't have yet. It's probably something a few customers are asking for. They think they can move some people over. They can probably move quite a bit of the Pento folks over to HiBob the ones that are least the bigger companies. Joel: So that's probably a good move if they can get like a 100 of those companies to become HiBob customers, that'd be a good thing. The other thing that I think we probably don't pay attention to or does have a huge impact, is the fact that HiBob is an Israeli company. And Israel is, if you haven't heard in a bit of a conflict within the region. And if you look at HiBob's employees, they are largely Jerusalem, Israel, like that area... Chad: Tel Avivs. Joel: And a lot of those people were probably brought into service because I don't know the specifics of it, but if you're an Israeli citizen and there's a conflict, like you get pulled into the Army in some way. Chad: From reserves. Joel: Shape or form... The reserve, you can speak to that more than I can, but HiBob potentially lost some employees for a while. Chad: I bet This thing that they wanted to build was on the back burner. The one country they have the most sort of synergies with is the UK, in terms of employees office space. So the easy thing was like, where in the UK can we get this service we want to build? Where can we get some talent because our talent is busy or the things are going on, there's volatility. They don't have a footprint in the US yet like they want. So that wasn't an option to me. So my take on this is like, yes, we wanna build this. Our talent is strained as it is. Our resources are strained. Where can we go shopping to get people in a country we know and a service and solution that we need? And Pento to me was probably the perfect fit at, like you mentioned, the perfect price. The stars aligned and this deal was done. Chad: Right. And Pento was a UK only organization. And I know the UK is a country, but it's one country in Europe. So again, I think we were talking, and again, this is my opinion, taking a look at the pricing models, monetization models, those types of things, the money they've taken, and then also their total adjustable market being the UK. And then understanding the size of the SME market there in the UK too. It just seemed like it was not born to succeed in the first place. And this is, if I have any message to startups out there is, if you are a technical founder, that is fucking awesome. But get somebody in, who understands marketing, get somebody in who understands business models from a revenue standpoint, because you can build the most gorgeous shit all day. But if you can't fricking sell it and make a profit, you're fucked. Joel: Yeah. And I don't think you can discount the pressure that like Deal is putting on these businesses because people are looking at Deal's numbers and saying, we need to like, kick ourselves in the ass and get growing, or we're gonna fall behind the companies that are, that are doing it well. So I don't discount the pressure a company like Deal is putting on these businesses, either. All right, Chad it must be earning season. 'Cause we got some, we got some quarterly filings that happened. Recruit Holdings reported a 1.5% year on year decrease in revenue during the third quarter of '23, due to a contraction in hiring activities in the US and Europe. Revenue from the US decreased by 17.7% year over year. Total job postings on Indeed declined year over year in the US and many other countries where Indeed and Glassdoor operate, while job seeker activity as measured by traffic to, and applies on Indeed and Glassdoor increased year over year at DHI group, the owners of Dyson clearance jobs, they experienced a 6.2% year over year decline in fourth quarter revenue, primarily driven by a 12.5% decrease in revenue from Dice. Chad: Ouch. Joel: ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter releases next week, by the way. But wait, there's more, Chad. SFX: Another one. Joel: There's more. Randstad reported an 8.6% year over year drop in revenue blaming global economic uncertainty. US revenue for Randstad fell by 15% Canadian revenue by 11 and US staffing slash in-house services down by 17%. Monster revenue in case you're wondering. And I know that you were, was down 12%. So Chad, your take on the quarterly reports from some of our favorite companies. Chad: Yeah, I think we were on a tech sugar rush and you know, I believe this is the impact that you're gonna see from the tech industry and job boards and really just across the board, to be quite frank. So Dice is obviously a pure play 1990s version job board that focuses on the tech side of the house. So we can't expect a hit from them. There's no question. I mean, there is no innovation there, there's nothing. But again, 1990s job board tech, so we can't expect any much more from them. So if we're reading the tea leaves right from the Indeed side of the house, they recently expended resources to create a tech network that makes me believe a good amount of their revenue is driven off the tech sector itself. Which would make sense because again, there's drops in revenues, when you're getting higher prices for clicks on tech jobs than the rest of the jobs that are out there. Chad: And then you see it kind of like, not really fall off a cliff, but they, they come down not just from the amount of jobs technically, but also the price per click. That's a big, that's a big issue. So we were seeing a lot of these organizations, even Randstad, let's say, where they were really milking it. They were milking this tech sugar rush. So this was to be expected. Are they still gonna make a shit ton of cash? And the CEOs drive Maseratis and yachts, they're gonna be fine. Okay. But at the end of the day, this was, we saw a big tech sugar rush, and now they're just coming off the, the tech sugar rush. Joel: There's a lot going on here. And the last time we talked about the quarterly earning season, it was similarly ugly for the job board space. And those were investment discussions that we had. But these are real numbers. Again, Randstad is in some serious decreases in numbers. So we have traffic going up, revenue going down. So that tells me that there's a lot of pricing pressure, particularly probably from the programmatic players from what I'm hearing. And anytime there's a middleman in business, it's a race to the bottom. And I think with programmatic, it's like, okay, where can I get the cheapest clicks possible? And it's just like this gradual race to how low can we go on those pricing. I also think that companies are getting better at looking at their current workforce. How do we upskill these folks? Joel: How do we get them in the positions that we're looking for? I really do think that companies are getting the fact that we have people we need to do a better job of skilling them into new jobs. And I also think that companies are getting better about looking at their databases and figuring out how do we find people that were silver and bronze medalists six months ago? Chad: It's about fucking time. Joel: And bringing them in as employees, so we don't have to post a job and go through the whole hiring and, and interviewing process. I think companies are getting sort of used to the fact that LinkedIn is gonna be where we source some people. So before we post that job, let's look and see if we can find someone, on LinkedIn. And I think big picture wise, we're seeing data that's showing that the job hopping of the post pandemic world where everyone was getting a 25% increase in pay, that that is slowing down. So people are staying at the job longer. They're not jumping ship as quickly as they used to. And I think that's having an impact on companies not having to post jobs as much as they typically would. And ultimately the four horsemen and other things nipping at the heels of the job board space continue to to feed, if you will. We'll be right back. Joel: All right, Chad some economy news. Can I interest you in some of that? The Biden administration announced a $5 billion investment to support research and development in advanced computer chips. Despite local efforts to address labor market concerns, the US semiconductor manufacturing industry faces challenges in attracting and retaining talent. The new initiative aims to reverse the industry's decline and boost domestic production of advanced semiconductors. But cool your jets, man, companies are struggling to adapt quickly enough to a convergence of tech generational turnover and things just moving too damn fast. Chad, to keep up with all these demands, about 44% of workers in a recent study have skills that are set to be disrupted in the next five years. Again, that's 44% that are gonna be disrupted. And about 60% of workers will require training in the next three years. This all seems bad to me, Chad, but what are your thoughts. Chad: Well, first off, let's hit up the US government side of the house, which is doing exactly what it should regarding research and development and innovation, much like the US government and DARPA created the internet. Yeah. The US and DARPA did that kids, it's interesting that people everywhere forgot that the current velocity of today's technology can be pinned directly to the US government creating the internet, which not only help the US economy explode, but economies across the entire globe. So that's what a government's supposed to do. And that's exactly what's going on. Now, this leads to some of the bigger problems, which you talked about the skills gap, because we can have tons of great jobs, but if we don't have individuals with the skills to pay the bills, the jobs to design and produce and sales and customer service profits aren't gonna happen. Chad: So yes, the linchpin for all of this to work is the American worker who has the skills to pay the bills. So this is on you talent acquisition. This is on you, not just focusing on your current talent acquisition opportunities and also talent management opportunities. You have to think out of the box and maybe even focus a little bit more heavily on training and pay money for that. But wait a minute, wait a minute. Here comes Uncle Joe to the rescue. The National Semiconductor Technology Center is being funded through the Chips and Science Act. The center will help to fund the design and prototyping of new chips. That's cool. In addition to what, what training workers for the sector, Uncle Joe companies say they need skilled workers in order to capitalize on a separate $39 billion being provided to the government or by the government, I'm sorry, to fund new and expanded computer plants. Chad: So here's Uncle Joe to the rescue. The question is, oh, this is such a game. It drives me fucking crazy. It's like the government comes and bails out the organizations, which is exactly what's happening here. We're gonna spend money to train the people to do the shit that you should be doing. And then later we'll talk about overreach and we'll talk about how the government needs to stay out of our stuff. There's gotta be some type of balance that's happening here. Because every time the government comes into play, it seems like they're bailing you out. The companies who are making historic profits are getting bailed out. Joel: I think that my take on this is, it's trying to speed up the clock. We have geopolitical issues with China. Taiwan is the major producer of a certain chip that the world needs to do all this AI stuff. And if Taiwan goes under for some reason, the free world is kind of in a pickle to say the least. So the government does what government does, they go, okay, China's a threat. If Taiwan goes away, we're in trouble. So let's pass a bill that says we're gonna fund companies setting up shops, setting up chip making, setting up technologies here in America, which is all good. Political fodder for people that love that stuff. We're gonna set up a warehouse or a building in Ohio and they're gonna love it. And companies are gonna get behind it and it's gonna be great PR and they're gonna get their picture in the local paper and people are gonna love it. And then they found out, oh, shit, we don't have people to do the jobs that we are paying the businesses to stay in the country. So the companies go to government and say, okay, well help us get people. Help us get like, what's going on. And unfortunately Taiwan was a source for early employees. It was like, let's get some visas to these Taiwanese. Chad: Well it's 'cause they were cheap. That's why. Joel: Get there first. And lo and behold, Taiwan, well, Taiwan has their own challenges to fill seats in these organizations. So it's like, okay, well we can just wait 20 years and fill the jobs that we have and deal... Well, we don't have that much time. So government, the good part of government is like, let's speed up the clock. Let's gin this thing up. Let's inject some cash and let's get people excited and energized around this initiative. The specifics, were pretty sparse. Exactly what are we gonna do? But dude, I'm all for the onshoring or reshoring of chips and technology and robotics and all that stuff. Because if we rely on China or places that are dangerous, like that puts us in a dangerous place. And I'm not down for that. So to me, this is a security issue more than it is like, let's bail out the banks or let's bail out the car companies. Like to me, this is a genuinely important issue in terms of the security of the country. I don't know how you feel, but like to me, this is 5 billion on our security, not 5 billion to bail out companies. And it's just wasteful. Chad: But it totally is because when we take a look at when the pandemic happened, we had automakers, we had companies obviously who did, they had no contingencies in place at all. They had one place to get one part. And that part or that chip, they needed to run the entire system on a car or what have you. So we are actually doing business in an incredibly irresponsible way, although making a shit ton of cash that's going directly to the C-suite, going to the shareholders. So as we talk about economics and workforce economics, this is a pure bailout of irresponsible corporate dealings. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Speaking of crazy pills, Chad, they're back. Jobster. Yeah. I said Jobster, first made famous in the mid 2000s behind eccentric founder Jason Goldberg is back from the dead. The domain was sold around 2010 to a company called Zapoint, which is now a holding page for a WordPress blog, "about philosophy." Somewhere around 2018, Zapoint shut things down and it laid dormant until now, visitors at Jobster.com are met with the words, "welcome to Jobster, the world's first, first predictive job advertising platform open for early access registrations now." All signs seem to point to a new programmatic ad solution, but who the hell knows? Chad, what are your thoughts? Chad: It feels like ghosts of Christmas passed here. Jobster at one time went through like, I don't know, 20 iterations of, of what it could be. But that's back in 2004 to 2008, the prior version of Jobster. Programmatic distribution, realtime bidding matching. I have no fucking clue. We'll see when it comes out. But I wanted to use this time for a little story time because we both have history with Jobster. Joel: Come come along kids and hear a story from your grandpa. Chad: 2004 to 2008 Jobster received about $54 million in funding. And that was a lot back then. Joel: Which was massive back then. Chad: No, that was a lot back then. Joel: That was massive back then. Chad: So after the 2006 raise of about $18 million, Jason Goldberg, the CEO called me one day, I was the VP of Direct Employers Association, and he was totally drunk on this new funding. I mean, he thought he owned the world, which I totally get. And he said, okay, Chad, there at Direct Employers Association, I wanna know how much it's gonna take to buy you. And I said, Jason, you can't buy us. We are a nonprofit consortium of and he didn't want to hear that. So he pulled the Karen, let me talk to your manager. So he wanted to talk to the executive director. And it was just funny that we're seeing what we've seen now, a lot of these companies who are now considered unicorns who are drunk on the cash, some of them are not doing so well. And we saw this back in 2007, 2008, and it's not just because the founder was all over the place. That was part of it. But it seems like when you don't have focus and you're not managing your money and you've got your burn rate through the fucking roof, shit's gonna go bad. And that's what happened at Jobster. Joel: Everyone from that time period has a Goldberg story. I have many, but I will say that he was... So I was blogging at Cheesehead at the time. And you guys had me come down direct employers to your annual meeting, which is like in the basement of treasure Island, which were the good old days for sure. But Goldberg spoke and I said at the time, Hey, can I record you? And he is like, sure, no problem. So I had like this big Panasonic camera at the time. Chad: A camcorder. Joel: And I taped him. And this is his famous like Monster is NASCAR. Monster is a shit product. He like totally killed, killed Monster in his presentation. I had it all on tape. It's still out there. Actually, you can go to YouTube, I think, and search Jason Goldberg Monster is a crap product and see the video. Joel: But my site traffic and my brand took a spike up into the right when I published that video. But yeah, the dude, he was a dick to employees. The alumni of the old Jobster are really successful now. To many degrees now. Chad: Great talent. Joel: Just learning about Jason, Jason is now peddling Web3 stuff at a company he founded called Airstack. He's still getting funding. It's very humorous. If you look at his LinkedIn profile, you know how if a company has a logo, it's on LinkedIn and the logo's there and then the company. And if it's no company or the company's like gone or whatever, there's just a building icon. Most of his things are the building icon because the companies that he founded and ran into the ground, don't have pages anymore. Joel: So to present day here, I did a little bit of digging. This is a company owned in the Netherlands, apparently bought this thing. It's a group of three guys. They have sites like Jobbird, StudentJob they're behind a company called YoungCapital and a tech accelerator called Dash. But really we don't know a whole hell of a lot. We'll just have to watch how this thing plays out. My guess is these guys have no clue about the history of the domain that they purchased. Chad: Oh no. Joel: They probably got on a secondary market, said, oh, Jobster. That's kind of cool. That sounds good. And bought it and have no idea what kind of debt they're dealing with. But yeah, it'll be fun to see this thing come to life or not. I don't know. Netherlands maybe. Maybe they'll have some kibu on the site when you guys go to Netherlands. [music] Chad: Come to the e-recruitment Congress and let's sit down for a chat. Joel: All right, Chad let's take a quick break from all this nostalgia. All right, Chad, are you ready to score? Ready to score big? All right. Neon Money Club. Chad: I have no clue what that means. Joel: Yeah. If you see a company called Neon Money Club hide your wallet and clutch your pearls. Anyway, they're a FinTech platform and they've launched a new dating app called Score, which requires users to have a credit score of at least 675, users will be able to apply for access. And those denied will be directed to resources to improve their financial literacy and credit scores. Well, that's nice of them. That's nice of them. The app is only available for a limited time and has received mixed reactions, as you can imagine due to its exclusionary nature with some viewing it as aspirational and others seeing it as perpetuating class divides. Neon Money Club has raised over $10 million in venture capital and is the first black-owned tech business to launch a credit card with AmEx. Chad, are you ready to score or is this thing an air ball? Chad: So did I get this right. This is a dating app matching on credit score is that what I got? Joel: You can only join if you have a certain credit score or above, which is 675. Chad: Which is a dating app though, right? Joel: Yes. Chad: What's this saying about our society? I mean, we're a society that's in debt more than ever before. We're a society that some cases have to have two to three jobs just to make ends meet. And then we talk about Instagram and social media, which is bad for kids and their self-esteem. Now, newly minted adults who are deep in debt are being rated on something as arbitrary and bullshit as a credit score, as a means to tell whether you're gonna be a good mate or not. I mean I just don't understand how these ridiculous ideas get any money whatsoever. It's crazy. I mean, this is, I think an example. What is, there's so many things that are right about the entrepreneurial spirits in America. But then you think about what's wrong here it is. Here it is. Shit that should never, ever exist. Guess what? Here it is. Joel: So it's not a new idea. Exclusionary. There's this, there's a dating site called The League, which is mostly Ivy League graduates sort of an upper cross now. You get on a waiting list with them and they approve you or not. Which tells me they're probably letting a lot of women in and like only guys that have Ivy Leagues and whatever. Chad: Oh, of course. Yeah. Joel: So look, it's no secret. Women are looking for a guy who is financially secure, cancel me or whatever. But like that is, that is something that women probably look for. Chad: Dude, at 20. Were you financially secure? No fucking way. I wasn't either. Joel: Let me finish my thoughts, man. Chad: I wasn't either. [laughter] Joel: Let me finish my thoughts. So yes. Like they're gonna exclude a lot of 20 somethings. For sure. Chad: Not cool. Joel: And maybe that's their goal. Maybe their goal is like, okay, all these young guys that are horny, they're gonna fail the test and we're gonna funnel them into our financial services funnel. Maybe that's it. And that's kind of like I mean a bit of an evil genius kind of thing, if you will. Chad: Boner killer. Joel: Boner killer. But look, dude, I mean, Tinder is built on what I look like, kind of my basic interests. And if there's a physical thing, then I'm gonna swipe right and see what happens. I can't imagine the... I mean you're getting... No one's gonna choose someone just because of their credit score. Like you can't be a troll. And have an 800 credit score. Chad: I don't get it. Joel: And like, pull chicks. Like that's just not how this shit works. So I don't know man. This is gonna be like there was an app called People back in the day where you could rate individuals like professionally. And it was like Yelp for People and everyone hated it and it didn't work. And now it's gone. I assume that dating by credit score is not going to be a thing. I just hope that Apple Podcasts never require a certain credit score for this show, because the money is funny and the credit, don't get it on Chad and Cheese. You know what I'm saying? We are out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, with Chad, with Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss, there's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

Frontline workers are in high demand. They're essential to keeping the lights on for companies of all sizes. To say there's a lot of money spend on hiring and retaining those employees is an understatement, but the ability to support those initiatives will also managing that workforce is equally important. That's why Movo was built and why Jason Radisson, founder and CEO of the company came on Firing Squad. That's the good news. The bad news is there are lots of competitors with trusted brands and even deeper pockets. So is Movo a knife in a gunfight, or do they bring a special sauce the others don't. Radisson and his background at Uber may just be cooking up something unique, but we'll let the intense line of questioning answer that question. Does he survive The Squad? Gotta listen to find out. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, buzziest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids, the Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel Cheeseman: All right, all right, all right, it's your plumber's favorite podcast, everybody, AKA The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheeseman, joined as always, the Argyle to my John McLean, Chad Sowash is in the house, and it's another Firing Squad with Jason Radisson, founder and CEO of Movo... Chad Sowash: Movo. Joel Cheeseman: On a mission to transform work environments and career paths for millions of frontline workers. Jason, welcome to the Firing Squad. Jason Radisson: Hey, guys, thanks for having me on. Joel Cheeseman: No problem. No problem. Now, before we get to the business stuff, our listeners probably don't know who you are. Give them a Twitter bio. What makes Jason Radisson tick? Jason Radisson: Yeah, happy to. So Jason Radisson is my name, I live in Minneapolis, I grew up as the only child of a 16-year-old single mom, I worked all kinds of jobs coming up and I'm just really passionate about work, my family and the outdoors. And I think those three things really combine themselves super well in Minneapolis, big fan of the Twin Cities' recent transplant from Silicon Valley. Joel Cheeseman: Sixteen-year-old single mother. Wow, that's a whole podcast in and of itself. Jeez. Jason Radisson: Probably. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Probably is. Well, we're not here for the warm and fuzzy stuff, not at all. Chad, tell him what he's won today. Chad Sowash: Well, Jason, welcome to the Firing Squad, this is how it's going to go. At the sound of the bell, you are going to have 2 minutes to pitch Movo, at the end of 2 minutes, we're going to hit you up with about 20 minutes of Q and A, so be sure to be concise or we're going to hit you with the crickets, which means you need to tighten it up and move on. At the end of Q and A, you will receive one of the three, a big applause... [applause] Chad Sowash: Happy holidays for Jason's. Looks like you've unwrapped that big exit that you've always wanted. Golf clap. [applause] Chad Sowash: Keep cleaning up reindeer shit. With a good work ethic, you might get a glimpse of market adoption. And last but never least, the firing squad. Bah humbug, take a lump of coal... Joel Cheeseman: Hell no. Chad Sowash: And be happy with it, that's the Firing Squad, Jason, are you ready? Jason Radisson: Ready as I'll ever be. Joel Cheeseman: Your 2 minutes starts now. Jason Radisson: So hey, everybody, Movo is a real-time platform that your workforce, if you have a large frontline workforce, the hospitality industry, clinical staff, retail, energy, and clean tech. Movo is a platform where your entire workforce has everything about their workday all day long every day. From timekeeping to communications to a virtual social network to training opportunities and things like shift swapping, and picking up new roles internally, promotion opportunities and opportunities, mobility opportunities and things like that. Movo supports all of those use cases and our clients are largely global companies with big workforces in that space and have realized a 10 to 30 percent improvement in productivity. The initial idea we got for Movo was, I was an exec and early team member in Uber and then in two other gig economy companies, and I really saw this opportunity to take the technology of the gig economy in a modern mobile real-time platform to frontline workforces in traditional companies that weren't blessed with that same kind of technology. And I think the world's just changing, we're entering a phase where there's never going to be more workers, we've got to invest in the workforce that we have in leveling them up and removing frictions from their job. You can find out more about us, you can see client testimonials, you can see demos of the software at movo.co, that's M-O-V-O.C-O, thanks a lot. Joel Cheeseman: All right, I'm sorry. Did you say shift-swapping or wife-swapping? I didn't quite get that. Jason Radisson: We have not gotten into that yet, not yet. Chad Sowash: Not yet but it's on the roadmap, it's on the road map. Joel Cheeseman: You may have to pivot after this podcast. You may have to pivot. Jason Radisson: Might be good, might be bad for worker engagement. Joel Cheeseman: Again, another whole podcast we can get out of this. I always ask about the name, but I'm going to put a pin on that for a second. You did time at Uber. Do you have a good Uber story? Do you have a good Travis story for us before we get into everything? Jason Radisson: Sure. I got lots of them. Let me see one that I can share. Joel Cheeseman: Pick one. Jason Radisson: I think one of the biggest things we struggled with was dealing with airports, and we had a lot of these places where we struggled with the local taxi community. Joel Cheeseman: Vegas. Jason Radisson: Vegas, in particular, it was one of my cities that you guys have probably seen. Chad Sowash: It sucks. Yeah. Jason Radisson: Travis was really in a position where... I think as a company also, we just didn't want to get into a wrong position with Homeland Security and airports. And what we managed to negotiate out and never quite got blessed was a data sharing with McCarran Airport, where we didn't give away personally identifiable information and nothing that would get us in trouble with legal. And we were able to come up with this win-win-win situation that ended up being the way that ridesharing companies communicate with Homeland Security. You want to make sure that you don't have a car full of terrorists driving up to the airport... Joel Cheeseman: Very important. Jason Radisson: But you also don't want to be doing something Big Brother-like in sharing people's names and trajectories with authorities. I'll leave it at that, I won't exactly say what the technical solution was, but it's one of those... Joel Cheeseman: Bending the rules, everything we've seen in the Hulu... Jason Radisson: One of those, and Travis basically refused to go to any of the meetings, but also didn't block it. So that would be one of my Travis stories. Joel Cheeseman: Everything is true. Everything is true. Let's get to Movo. Origin of the name. It's a dot co, which 10 years ago you saw a lot of, you don't see a lot of it anymore, it's all io and ai. You guys aren't that old, you founded in 2018. So what's the origin of the name? Did you try to get the dot com? Will you be looking at getting that in the future? Talk about the name. Jason Radisson: Yeah. Yeah. Domain brokers, beware, but yeah, the origin of the name was... We wanted a name that we could really grow into, and the vision is very broad because very broadly speaking, we're essentially a data and algorithms company inside of an HR company, HR tech company. And Movo was just... It resonates and it pulled really well with the frontline workforce, clients as well, and we thought it was just a great refreshing take on the future of work and particularly gig technology, the development of the flexible workforce. That all sounds really vague, but if you boil down what's out there, I think the route of going very specific ends up getting you into a dead end because you name your company after one feature, and then it gets challenging when you start to build out your roadmap. And so I think we've got a good name from that perspective. The dot co is simply its domain-broker dynamics like dot com, it's taken, not particularly acquirable for an early stage company budget, io and a couple of the other ones as well, and yet we were able to trademark Movo, broadly speaking, for HR tech around the world. So we're pretty protected, we're doing a lot on the SEO front just to make sure that we continue to rank in the top three. Joel Cheeseman: Got it. Got it. Well, you don't hear frontline work and fresh perspective when it comes to names, so we'll leave it at that. Jason Radisson: Yea, right, right. Joel Cheeseman: Now, you don't have what I would call a core competency in recruitment, HR, etcetera. Would you agree? And if not, change my mind. But is that an advantage for what you guys are doing or do you find that it's a learning curve that you're trying to catch up to? Jason Radisson: Yeah, I would say I've got a recent one. My core competence is designing and deploying big algorithms, and I did it in the consumer space for years. I worked in telecoms, I was part of an algorithms development team in early McKinsey 25 years ago, and then we deployed a bunch of algorithms into banking, into telecoms, into a bunch of consumer businesses. I worked for Gary Loveman at Caesars Entertainment, previously at Harrah's in the rollup of the casino industry. Rolling our algorithmic system, which were a lot of like airline algorithms and otherwise and then eBay and then some of the other e-commerce companies. So I've been deploying massive algorithms like algorithms that see a billion transactions and touches a month kind of a thing going on two decades. Joel Cheeseman: So I'm going to go ahead, I'm going to bounce off of that. Chad Sowash: And I have three more points to add to that with seven subplot points. Joel Cheeseman: There are so many industries that are out there. HR is a slow-to-adopt industry, you've got all this great, fast-moving, fast-paced tech. You were on the cutting, bleeding edge with Uber. Right? You were not on the bleeding edge anymore, at least from an industry standpoint, so why? Why in the hell are you in HR now? Jason Radisson: Great question, and I think if you look at it, it's, consumer is relatively easy. Digitizing consumers relatively easy because everybody's got a mobile phone, it's got like 20 sensors on it. The problem with B2B is it doesn't exist, you have all the hardware issues and all the interoperability issues and all the corporate leadership issues and all the other things that go with it. And even you could say, The organization isn't designed to be run automatically. We went through this in e-commerce. Right? Because Walmart and Target and Best Buy's organizational structures were merchant organizations. They weren't set up with the kind of general managers that the category manager at Amazon is. So when you look at it, what are the opportunities to really digitize traditional B2B companies? Jason Radisson: It's on the front line worker, that's the place where you've got consumer kinds of dynamics, and you've got a mobile phone, frankly, in everybody's pocket, that's why we're going after that space. You'd argue ride-sharing and delivery is like a first step in that direction, if you look at what we did with Uber drivers. Right? We hired 5000 Uber drivers a week in the city, we on any given day managed 20, 30, 50,000 people in real time in a city or a small region, we were already digitizing the front line workforce. So now I think that's our bet as a company, we can take those same kind of tactics and tack and we can deploy them into the front line workforce at everybody else's company. Joel Cheeseman: So you saw that there was a gap, that there was pretty much a legacy tech in your space, and that you guys could fill that gap with more bleeding-edge tech? Is that what I'm hearing? Jason Radisson: Exactly. Yeah, I think there was a competing model out there for a few years, which was the labor marketplace. And everyone was betting on a labor marketplace and staffing platforms and that kind of thing. And I think the challenge is like you end up with coemployment, you end up with all these career challenges when people are in a temp environment. And so our bet is that that stuff is passe, labor marketplaces are passe, and really what you need to be doing is providing the best tech directly to employers to run their workforce this way. Joel Cheeseman: So you mentioned hospitality, nursing, and retail, those are incredibly different industries, so how do you cater to them all? Do you try to slam them all into the same process methodology? Because, to be quite frank, we all need to do the same thing, and if so, what is the adoption rate for companies thinking that they can just go ahead and jam their nursing process into a hospitality process? Jason Radisson: Well, I think if you... Not to go into scheduling processes versus hiring process, onboarding process or whatever, but if we stay macro, the use cases that people need really advanced tech for are really similar. So one of the biggest opportunities out there in the economy in terms of digitization is optimizing... If you look at... We don't have enough frontline workers in the country. Right? Like full stop. And population is aging, so it's not getting better, that's even creating more frontline workforce demand. Right? And we got participation down, so we got less workers to deal with, we've got to make more of the workers that we have. Everybody who's running a large company is walking around with 20, 10, 30% waste in their schedule, it's misallocated nurses, it's warehouse staff that isn't exactly matched to the ordered volume that's coming through. It's these kinds of things, these kinds of opportunities, and so right off the bat, the first thing that we usually look at is staff allocation. Chad Sowash: So your Uber driver allocation is what I'm hearing. Jason Radisson: Essentially, yeah. Joel Cheeseman: Surge pricing. Jason Radisson: Exactly. Well, surge pricing, if you're dealing with 1099s, it's surge pricing, if you're dealing with your own staff, and it may be flexing your staffing partners up and down and it may be shifting shifts... Swapping shifts, pardon me, and doing these kinds of substitutions. We have clients that literally will move 20, 30% to their staff around every week. And that's the kind of stuff that fills your staffing gap. Then if you're able to sweat your current roster, obviously you don't have the TA gap anymore. Joel Cheeseman: Jason, so you guys have raised about $10 million. What have you done with that, and what will you do with the remaining? And is there another series coming down the pipe? Talk about the cash. Jason Radisson: We've been EBITDA positive, EBITDA breakeven positive for about the last year, we did a small strategic raise last year, taking on jobs for the future JFF and SHRM. I think we're likely to continue to do those kinds of raises opportunistically, where we find the right partnerships, but our real goal is to be self-funding from this point forward. Most of what we did with the 10 million that we raised is build a platform and get engineering aligned. We built a lot of product, we've got more than 100 features in our platform. Joel Cheeseman: And speaking of engineering. So looking at your headcount info on LinkedIn, it looks like you guys have had quite a bit of a cut in the last couple of years. Unless the data is wrong, it looks like about a 28% cut. Engineering and tech and sales being two of the... Ones that were most impacted. Talk about that. Was that a cost savings? Was that a, Hey, we built the platform, we don't need these folks anymore, our sales strategy has changed? Talk about the talent pool. Jason Radisson: When we came out of... And you guys have probably seen this broadly, I think a lot of us have experienced it day-to-day, but like when we came out of the pandemic, things really shifted, and I think we didn't talk about them a lot. Right? Because during the pandemic, we were running around, we were basically an HDD shop during the pandemic, we were hiring people, we were training them, we were deploying them particularly in North America, trying to get plants back up. And we were literally running around with $200 million of orders, and we were like filling like 10% of them. And I don't think we were alone, I think we have competitors there, the staffing companies were all swamped. Jason Radisson: And as we came out of the pandemic, a lot of people just calmed down and it went to, We're making do with what we have, we have uncertain demand picture. So there was this real slowdown in hiring and talent acquisition. As we saw it, the crazy days were done like April of last year. And we made some big cuts and readjusted our business and sweat out... We really bulked up because we were hiring. We're looking at... In some months, we were putting 60,000 workers through our platform and through our hiring process. So that was a big adjustment and course correction. Then we went... Like I said, we worked last year on getting EBITDA positive and realigning for the long game that we're playing now. Joel Cheeseman: So Uber tried getting into this game and they failed. I mean they crashed and burned. So what's different this time around? Obviously, I don't think you were there that time, but what's different this time around? Jason Radisson: I think Uber Works was a flawed strategy, I think the idea that... And it's a little bit you see it with Wonolo, which is also a company... I think it's a great company, I think it has also fundamentally this flawed strategy, which is, there's the very entry level of the workforce, the unskilled worker, the very casual unskilled worker. It's just a brutal market and it's really tough to build preference with the employees. Those jobs are totally commoditized, there's not any margin in there for anybody, and then on the client side as well, they have seven or eight competitors. And by the way, a guy with fax machine is every bit is able to staff those workers in as Uber's app so it's just a tough business. And I think them going after that market at that time was just destined to end up the way it did. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. So let's talk about some of the threats and maybe even competitors in the market because we see the paradoxes and the Harrys of the world, I mean they're gobbling up market share, so. Chad Sowash: Bigger than that, like some gorillas in this space. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, they've taken up a lot of market share. So how do you compete? Or is that just a market validation that you just need to be a pilot fish? Jason Radisson: I think there's plenty of market share to go around because I think this is gonna be a big part of... Right? And we're talking about digitizing B2B. Like I don't think there's gonna be HR software and warehouse management software and other ERPs 20 years from now, I think we're gonna have a couple of platforms that you run a big part of your company on. So I think we're moving in that direction. The linchpin, the strategic pivot here is like who... Pivot point is who has worker preference and who's the app that the worker has on in their pocket all day long everyday because that gives you all the behavioral data, that gives you all the geodata to do any number of use cases and to be, frankly, the AI shop that wins. I don't think this is a chatbot thing. It's not about, Can you do customer service with a chatbot? Or, Can you replace recruiters with a chatbot? I think this is, Are you the mobile app or preference? And a lot of us are gonna compete for it and we'll have slightly different strategies and different approaches. And the world's a big place, I mean I was looking up some numbers on a different topic today. Accenture did 30 billion of SI work in the Fortune 500 in the US last year, so there's room for 20 or 30 companies here easily. And we end up being the workdays in 10 years or whatever. Chad Sowash: So you've got to be sticky, you've gotta be the lifestyle platform is what I'm hearing, you can't just be an Indeed job search app on the phone, you've gotta be more than that? Jason Radisson: Yeah. For us, I mean I'm giving away a little bit of trade secrets here, but timekeeping and scheduling is the killer app because that's what gets workers legit reason not... Right? They're not like on Facebook for work doing posts. Like with a legit reason using the app all day long everyday, and it has direct financial impact, it has direct career development impact. The internal labor marketplace is another one, surfacing those shifts that need to be swapped. Hey, my buddy, who's also cross-trained in the ER, needs to get a couple of shifts covered, so. Joel Cheeseman: Well, where do you start... Where do you start and end? I mean that's the big question. Where do you start and end? Do you start at the top of the funnel and actually do the recruiting portion of it, and then all the way through payroll and scheduling? I mean, Where do you start and end? Because that in itself, from a TAM standpoint, that is pretty broad. Chad Sowash: Or where do you want to start and end? Jason Radisson: Right. Right, the biggest lever is productivity in your existing workforce. Right? If you're a big hospital chain, you have 50,000 nurses, the big lever is getting 10% more of productivity out of that workforce. Hiring is an important application, we just have a completely gig-style hiring process. You download the app, you click through a couple of screens, and you're essentially hired, and then you show up at an orientation session. So for the super high-volume hiring that we've done in the last couple of years, that's the process. But I think it... Right? I go back to like it's mobile workforce management, if you wanna really put a wrapper on it. That's where we all should be competing because that's the unlock for the frontline workforce of the world. Joel Cheeseman: So I'm gonna dig in a little bit with the recruiting side because we have some on the recruiting side that are bleeding into the management side, what you're doing. Do you not see yourself going the other way into recruiting? Will you always be a day one and on or hired onboarding and on? Jason Radisson: Yeah. Oh, I should say we have a full-fledged recruiting automation offering, and we compete with the fountains and the levers of the world and otherwise, so. Joel Cheeseman: You don't beat your chest about it. Jason Radisson: We don't. 'cause we think it's... Joel Cheeseman: It may exist. Jason Radisson: Yeah. And like I said, I mean our stat is we hired 600,000 people in the last two years, so it's not like we have some beta that we sort of are thinking about. We know it's there, we don't think it's as strategic as workforce management. And clients will eventually ask us for it, but it's... Right? Because like we were saying, you can't hire your way out of the deficit right now, I think for that reason. Joel Cheeseman: So you dabble in recruitment, you may bulk that up a little bit as customer demand, yada yada. Okay, so you have a unique perspective on automation because Uber was really focused on automation, I think they partnered with Duquesne or something at some point. I'm going way back in my memory archives. But Uber was really focused on automated drivers and driverless taxis. Employment is the same every week, whether it's a new story about Amazon robots or driverless trucks or something. Talk about that in terms of a threat to your business. In other words, for every robot that comes on the line, every robot that takes blood pressure at a hospital, is that eating away at your profits? And if not, why not? Jason Radisson: Sure. I think the short answer is, robotics is really hard for these roles and it's gonna take a while. And I think the long game is, think 50 years in the future, 100 years in the future, there's gonna be a lot less of this type of employment. I think if you look at where automation is headed right now, it's really at entry-level white collar work, it's not at... Right? And I'm talking entry-level computer scientists, I'm talking entry-level financial analysts, entry-level lawyers, that's where automation is going to eat, probably the lunch of the next like five to 10 years. And I think it's a broader topic for HR leaders who might be listening to this show, but the broader topic is, How do you help... Joel Cheeseman: Every HR leader listens to this show? Jason, just so you know. Jason Radisson: Okay. Just so I know All of them. Jason Radisson: So it's a broader topic of, How do you help your career starters right now coming out of college? What does it look like if apprentice programs get hollowed out because your senior engineers are just using some AI assistants instead of using junior engineers anymore? Are bringing them up. Right? So we've got other topics there. But I think nursing, a lot of running highly automated factory lines, field engineering or field technician work, there's a ton of work out there that is just gonna be more tech enabled and it's just gonna level up in the same way like the PC and the internet didn't eat white collar work in the beginning, it just became an enabler and it caused all of us to gain technology skills. I think we have the same thing going on. Nursing will get more technical, and as HR leaders, we have to help the workforce get more technical. Chad Sowash: And I assume that's where your upskilling feature comes into play. Jason Radisson: Exactly. Chad Sowash: I'm not asking you a question, I'm just filling in the blanks in my own mind. Joel Cheeseman: You're sprinkling, you're sprinkling it in there. Chad Sowash: I'm sprinkling it. Yeah. Joel Cheeseman: I appreciate that. Let's talk about go-to-market. So how are we going to market? Are you going straight to brands? Are you working with different companies, being able to get into their portfolios? Being white labeled? How are you doing this? Jason Radisson: Yeah. So so far we've entirely operated under our own brand, we haven't white-labeled the platform in any market. Our go-to-market is... Our buyer is an early adopter and somebody who is down for change management, hungry for technology, and driven, concerned about helping their workforce get ahead and be higher skilled and be more productive and earn higher wages and things. Joel Cheeseman: Who are those people? What's the level of that person? That's not the VP of talent acquisition. Is it? Who is that? Who are you getting to? Jason Radisson: It's a change management CHRO and/or a change management COO or frankly A CEO. And they're not all in North America, we work pretty globally, and wherever those folks are... And internally, the way we look at it is... In every industry and every country, there's a couple of them, and we're not after late adopters or we're not looking for the middle mass of the market yet, we're really trying to work that front edge of change and helping folks digitize. Joel Cheeseman: Bleeding edge. Yeah. Jason Radisson: Really, truly, yep. And I think if you look, a great reference is Geoffrey Moore, who wrote the book on tech adoption, crossing the chasm, if folks have read that. Joel Cheeseman: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you get into reading and we're done, we're done when you talk about books and whatnot. Jason Radisson: Sorry. Joel Cheeseman: So really quickly... I know you like going on. Real quickly, what do you want to be when you grow up? Is this like we want to flip this in a few... Because you've raised money but not like the money that your competition has raised. So either you're really, really much smarter than your competition, which I'm not putting out of the realm of possibility. Or you have much lighter expectations, like you're gonna be bought by a big gorilla at some point. I don't see IPO in your future. And don't give me some work life balance stuff 'cause you work for Uber. So what do you want to... In 30 seconds, What do you want to be when you grow up? Jason Radisson: We wanna be the HR tech platform to beat for the next 10, 20 years. We literally want to take on the SAPs and the Workdays of the world and replace them with newer technology. Joel Cheeseman: So a new raise of funds is coming in the near future is what I'm hearing with that answer. Chad, this sounds expensive as hell. It sounds like it's way out of my budget. Chad Sowash: Oh it can't be. Joel Cheeseman: I don't know about yours in Portugal, maybe your European real estate empire can handle it. Chad Sowash: It's more affordable here, I'm sure, yes. Joel Cheeseman: Jason, for our listeners that wanna know, How much does this cost? Can I afford it? How do you break down the pricing? Jason Radisson: Really simple. Wherever you are in the world, it costs about what a sandwich costs to put a worker on Movo for the month. It'd be at 5, 10 bucks, somewhere in that ballpark. Joel Cheeseman: All right, Jason, it's not sexy, but it's an answer, I'm gonna go first. Jason Radisson: Okay. Joel Cheeseman: I'm giving you my 2 cents about this company. So I was initially pretty skeptical. Your background doesn't scream HR tech royalty. I love the Uber play. And you turned me on the whole driver surge pricing, for lack of a better term, of how you bring what your experience is to the workplace and scheduling and managing workers and all. So you built that bridge to me, which was great, which was a big pop in your stock in terms of what I was looking at. I initially thought, "They're gonna get destroyed by the big boys and even the ones that are hoping to be big boys with money they've raised, etcetera." I really think you gotta... I won't say you're a squirt gun at a gunfight or a knife at a gunfight, but you gotta build some tanks, brother, you gotta bring some howitzers to the party and then we can really, I think, start talking about your future. You've got big goals, I do think there's room for a lot of winners, I don't think there's a winner-take-all, Coke, Pepsi, and that's it. I think that a lot of companies are gonna be appealing to certain industries. I like that you're targeting healthcare and... What's the other one? Jason Radisson: And retail, hospitality also. Joel Cheeseman: And retail, so you're focused, again, it's a big world, a big market, I think you're global and your mental... Like your focus is global, it's not just Minneapolis or, "Hey, we want to be awesome in St. Paul and the Twin Cities." I think it's much bigger than that. So for me, it's just a money question. Can you raise the money? Can you build the army to go against from the upside, the paradoxed, the fountains, but then also the big boys, the UKGs, the ADPs, Workday I might throw in there, I don't know if you do or not. So you're stuck in this middle ground, like if you want to be the thing, you gotta raise money. So for me, like until you raise that money and build that army, it's a golf clap from me. [applause] Joel Cheeseman: But I'm super optimistic about the business and I like your Uber experience, I think it's gonna pay off in a unique way in our space. Chad, you're up. Chad Sowash: Oh, here we go. Okay, so Jason, I gotta say early adopters and down-for-change management is not the profile of the HR masses. And I know you're just looking for the bleeding-edge people, but those are gonna be very hard to find. And there's also a lot of catching up to do because one of the gorillas out there, that we mentioned earlier, they're about at 10 million users per month, you guys are around 70,000. Right? So again, there's a lot of ground to make up. Other than that, it really feels like Movo is skating to the puck. Mobile-first for frontline hiring. Mobile workforce management is a winner in the frontline space, period. Right? Hiring 600,000 people in 24 months, that's nothing to shake a stick at. Sticky apps being the actual lifestyle app, process automation, AI load balancing, some of the shit that we've never heard in this space before. I think Joel is wrong with regard to you needing to actually raise a shit ton more money, I think you are in line to be an amazing pilot fish. Definitely get some money, you don't have to go out there and get a shit ton of money, but if you are the RC Cola to the Coke and Pepsi out there, I think you're gonna do damn well. And for that reason, my friend, you're gonna get a big applause from me. [applause] Joel Cheeseman: Congratulations Jason. How do you feel? Jason Radisson: Thanks guys, it's been awesome, yeah. We're gonna raise it, it's gonna be lean. We've learned also... We've all had the hangover raising too much and maybe it's a little bit of a founder being cautious. Chad Sowash: A founder, being cautious and smart, and also, yes, hey, you're just riding a different wave, that's cool. Joel Cheeseman: Fair enough. Now, in the green room, let's talk about this new wife-swapping product that you're gonna be launching soon. Just kidding. For those out there again, Jason, where do you send them if they wanna learn more about Movo? Jason Radisson: Yeah, you can find us on LinkedIn Movo HQ, or you can find us at our website @movo.co, C-O. Joel Cheeseman: That's another firing squad. Jason is still alive and kicking. Chad, another one in the Can. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: This has been the Firing Squad, be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys @chadcheese.com today, that's W-W-W dot C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E dot com.

No one in the world of work likes form-filling, complex systems and bureaucracy. Yet, teams need to feel motivated, aligned, and accountable on the job, which usually means a lot of that stuff we hate. So what's an employer to do? OnLoop is here to turn every manager into a supercharged coach, and CEO and founder Projjal "JJ" Ghatak is on Firing Squad to try and prove his company has the juice to fulfill that promise and take it to established players like Lattice, 15five, Culture Amp and others. Does this former Uber executive's startup have what it takes to survive Chad & Cheese? Gotta listen to find out. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids, the Chad & Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Oh yeah, what's up everybody, it's your webmaster's favorite podcast, AKA The Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman, joined as always, the Luigi to my Mario... Chad: Hello. Joel: Chad Sowash is in the house, and we are happy to welcome Projjal JJ Ghatak, CEO and founder at OnLoop to the Firing Squad. JJ, welcome. Projjal Ghatak: Thank you for having me. Chad: All the way from Singapore. It's midnight. It's midnight in Singapore. This is what JJ is doing for us. Joel: We are building bridges around the world. Our first Singaporean guest. So we are excited about that, for sure. So, before we get into the nitty-gritty of the business, let our listeners know who you are, what makes JJ tick? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So, I live in Singapore with my wife where, we both grew up in Asia, so I grew up in India, and she grew up in the Philippines, but she's American, I'm Singaporean. We have our first child on the way and that's going to be one confused kid with Filipino and Indian parents and a US and Singapore passport, so we'll have fun with that. I've been to 49 countries, I have a weird accent, which is probably 75% American and 25% others. And I think what makes me tick is a general curiosity about the human condition. And in a world where Elon Musk is trying to take us to Mars, I'm trying to make humans better. And I think economies... Joel: Good luck with that. Projjal Ghatak: And technologies exist to make humans better, and so making humans better is what makes me tick. Joel: Well, that is a lofty goal. That is a lofty goal, well, Chad... Chad: The human condition. [chuckle] Joel: Yeah. Chad, why don't you tell him what he's won by being on the Firing Squad today? Chad: Alcohol helps the human condition. Welcome to Firing Squad, JJ. Here's what's gonna happen. So at the sound of the bell, you're gonna have two minutes to pitch OnLoop. At the end of two minutes, we're going to hit you up with about 20 minutes of Q and A, be sure to be concise or you're gonna get hit by the crickets, which means tighten it up. At the end of Q and A, you're gonna receive either a big applause, which means you've nailed it just like the Baltimore Ravens blowout playoff win. Get the bubbly ready because we're predicting a championship. Golf clap. Well, you squeaked one through like the Kansas City Chiefs did against the Bills. Be happy, but you still have a ton of work to do. Or, oh my God, the Firing Squad. This is worse than a Buffalo Bills wide right field goal or a Ron DeSantis smile, kids. All you can do now is hang your head, pack it up and go home. Get ready for some Firing Squad. Are you ready, Joel? Joel: Are you ready, JJ, is the better question. Chad: Let's go. Joel: Two minutes starts, now. Projjal Ghatak: Hey folks, I'm Projjal and I'm the CEO and founder of OnLoop. OnLoop is a gen AI company that is focused on increasing the effectiveness of managers globally. The company was born about three years ago in 2020, right when the world was moving from an in-office workplace to a remote workplace, to really redefine how teams of the future are assessed and developed. I spent many years at companies like Accenture and Uber running very large organizations and were increasingly frustrated by manual bureaucratic processes like performance management and a ton of learning tools that were, at best, never used, at worst, hated, by me and my teams. And through the process of the last three years, we've really come up with our own proprietary framework that we call collaborative team development. Projjal Ghatak: That's a hierarchical framework of managing each person's energy, their goals in terms of targets, projects, and skills, celebrate and improve feedback to identify superpowers and blind spots. And then finally, ongoing personalized learning based on specific goals and specific feedback. We then take the friction out of that by using AI to rewrite feedback so we can take people's raw observations, rewrite that using a standard situation behavior impact framework, as well as extracting behaviors from it, as well as make it much easier to take simple goals and sort of flush them out in terms of milestones, et cetera. And then we run a habit loop through a well-designed product and sort of formulating what we call a clarity score that takes everything that's happening around those five layers and help managers take next actions for every team member. We started with a problem and we set up the software... Joel: Your time is up, JJ. Projjal Ghatak: That's it. That's where we are. Joel: Thanks for the pitch. All right. We always start with the name, OnLoop, it sounds like a new Keanu Reeves movie. How'd you come up with it? You started with io, I think. Now you have a dot-com. Tell us the story about the name. Projjal Ghatak: Yeah, so actually, I'd come up with a company name called Curate about three and a half years ago, and so we used that when we first started. But Curate was impossible to ever get curate.com. And if people can't find you, that's a problem. And so as we thought about renaming the company, I think being able to get a dot-com was a huge factor. And in the early days, we talked a lot about fixing broken feedback loops in organizations and helping sort of managers and teams stay on-loop. And so through a narrowing process, we landed on OnLoop, both from a logistics perspective around digital identity, as well as a correlation with what we were doing with companies. Joel: Okay. So you were at Uber before OnLoop. It seems like a bit of a stretch, we usually have startups that have some recruiting experience or had a startup in recruiting before or worked for an employment or work related company, how did you make the leap from Uber to OnLoop? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So I think the common thread that goes through my entire career, starting right from Accenture back in the day, was that developing people around me was just something that I naturally did. And then while I was at Stanford doing a two-year MBA, we spoke so much about feedback and leadership being the core components of what builds great organizations. And so this sort of, this sort of aspect that people drive business outcomes and that sort of being a core job of an executive was something that was pretty ingrained early on in my career. And seeing Uber go from 9,000 to 27,000 people personally leading teams of 50-150, having to do calibrations every six months and seeing sort of the time inefficiency as well as the bias and injustice in those conversations led to a level of frustration that led me to solving this problem. Projjal Ghatak: So two weeks before... Two weeks after I left Uber, I wrote a two pager call TalentTech in terms of everything that I felt was broken from the lens of an end user leader or a manager less from a functional org like HR, and I think we've seen this in IT happen in the last 10 years, where people sort of build tools for engineers, designers, product managers directly. And unfortunately all the tools have been built for an HR use case versus a manager or leader use case. And so, you know, I decided we need to sort of tackle all of these talent problems primarily from the lens of the manager or the leader, and then secondarily from the lens of HR, which is something that we've seen happen in IT in the last 10 or 12 years. Joel: So you launched in 2020, and 2021 you raised $5.5 million it looks like. What have you done with the money? When is the next round of funding if there is gonna be one? Like talk about the investment. Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So we actually raised the pre-seed of two and then sort of stayed in stealth until we got to a product that we wanted to talk about. And then sort of, we started working with GPT3 back in 2021. And one of the first prototypes we built was taking small bits of bite-sized feedback and sort of putting that together in a coherent summary as our first iteration of an automated performance review. And we saw pretty early that that tech was gonna get mainstream and that's when we raised our three and a half, and sort of started talking publicly. And we were the first company in the world to have our automate performance reviews. And actually, if you look at McKinsey data around managers and how to make their lives easier, performance reviews comes up consistently as a use case where sort of AI is deeply helpful if it's used the right way. Projjal Ghatak: Unfortunately, it's used in the wrong way today where people just make up stuff in ChatGPT, which is not helpful. But taking sort of continual observations and sitting them together with AI in a consistent manner is actually pretty powerful. And so we sort of, sort of did a wait list launch in September, 2021. Over the course of 2021 and 2022, the platform got a whole lot better, the tech got a whole lot better. Our sort of core application got a whole lot better and really started monetizing, sort of at the beginning of 2023, we sort of 6x the business. We're sort of at about 200-300k in ARR today. We will 5x the business over the course of 2024. We are in the process of raising a $2 million round to sort of get us way past PMF and sort of build repeatability. And so we're at a stage where we've identified creative agencies and sort of post PMF impact tech companies as sort of target markets where we wanna build repeatability around. We sort of serve customers globally, but our, our core markets are the US, Singapore, Japan, Australia, and the UAE. Chad: Jesus that's broad. Joel: Are you calling the 2 million a, A round? That's real, that seems more like a bridge. Projjal Ghatak: In Singapore, it's interesting, like we raise a $2 million pre-seed, that's a Series A in Singapore for a lot of companies. And so, so you know, I think funding rounds and what to call them is [laughter] is sort of not... Joel: Got it. Projjal Ghatak: Not a thing that is... Joel: Different world. I got it. I got it. You're not in Silicon Valley anymore. Chad: Different world. Different world. Okay. So you're talking about your footprint. Your footprint is, it seems like all over the place. You just, did you just throw the US in there because it's a big pile of money because you're, you're there Asia-Pac, you've got it right there. You can go ahead and nail that and then, you know, expand in the US later. Why are you focusing all over the place? Projjal Ghatak: Yes, it's funny. So, you know, in many ways, we're primarily a US startup that has a distributed global team. And so I went full-time on the company in April, 2020, Singapore shut down on seventh April, 2020. And we sort of started fundraising largely in the US in May, 2020. And actually got inbound from Square Peg, which is Australia's largest VC who led our pre-seed at the time. And our team right from the get go was distributed across US, Canada, India, Singapore and Philippines. So, and, for me, we actually did not acquire any customers outside the US until we were clear what we were building. Projjal Ghatak: 'Cause we didn't want to accidentally build a product that wasn't for the US. And once it was clear what we were doing, we then sort of added other developed countries to the mix. And actually over the course of 2023, the US had a really tough year, and we saw sort of our APAC revenue grow a lot quicker than the US revenue and sort of having the US and developed APAC sort of makes a natural hedge one against the other, for our revenue too. So today our revenues are about 35% US, 65% APAC. I sort of expect that to be roughly 50/50 sort of moving forward long term. Chad: Okay. Okay. So OnLoop on the website it says, "As easy to use as a fitness tracker." Explain how that works. Joel: What's a fitness tracker, Chad? What's a fitness tracker? [laughter] Chad: It's underneath your Lay's potato chips. Your wife got you one, but you've never put it on. Yeah, no, it's okay. Projjal Ghatak: I saw the Oura ring on your hand and, you know, I think what fitness trackers have done is that it's really demystified what being healthy is and, broken it down into you're either not sleeping well or not eating and drinking well or not working out. And usually you're drinking way too much alcohol and which is why regular drops. And, that's usual. That's usually what happens. That's been the biggest insight from the Oura ring for me is don't drink, but you know, we've complexified what being a manager is whereby it feels like this overwhelming burden that nobody understands. And what we've done is broken it down into five constituent parts that demystifies that and then sort of showing a sense of continual progress that builds habit loops around it. Projjal Ghatak: So our app gives you a clarity score for every manager in terms of sort of how much clarity you're driving for each of your team members along the five key components and then next actions to take. And a certain team member might need help around sort of motivation or energy levels, but certain high performers might need improvement feedback to get to the next level. And if you're managing six or eight direct reports, many of which might be all over the place, it is practically impossible to keep track of all of it. And we believe that anybody can be a good manager with the right tools and approaches. We've just not given managers the right approaches to be good and therefore we bitch and moan about bad managers all the time. [laughter] Chad: Well, they don't get any training and we have shitty managers all over the place. So how does a fitness tracker-esque type of tech help a shitty manager become a better manager? Because a lot of it has to do with just caring, right? And when that's not the focus of the company, they're focusing on revenue, sales goals, marketing leads, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then it's like, oh, well, how does Johnny feel today? That's never a priority. So talk about how you can make a shitty toxic culture into a great culture. Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. I don't think anybody walks in the office in the morning and says, I'm gonna be a shit manager today. And there might be some, but I think that's the exception about them all. Chad: That's behavior. That's behavior. Projjal Ghatak: Correct. And usually, being a manager means executing with the team that you have and getting the best out of your team. And sometimes there's an issue with someone's motivation or someone's energy level, but usually where there's a huge gap is in people having clarity on what their priorities and goals are. And actually in most organizations, that is the greatest delta we can drive instead of helping every manager break work down into targets, projects, and skills that each person understands and therefore knows how to prioritize. And so in the same way that nobody who's obese wants to be obese and they're not gonna go from being obese to being Usain Bolt overnight, we can give them a roadmap of micro steps to take to get better. And if they then feel a sense of progress, they will get better over time. And so by breaking it down into what the constituent parts of being a good manager looks like and using tech to sort of drive those inputs continually, you can make a manager better one day at a time. Chad: Okay. Now, one of the things that we see with tech over and over and over and over is that great vision, great vision and kind of there's a little bit of overpromising that happen. So on the site, it says, "Prioritize individual well-being as the foundation for thriving organization." I totally get that. But does the system analyze pay equity, living wages, those types of things? Because those are the things that first prioritize employee wellness. So where do you begin and where do you end with regard to understanding wellness within an actual individual, within an organization? Projjal Ghatak: It's a great question. And for us, the starting point is understanding where people's battery levels are, right? And being intentional about it. And someone might be operating at 10% battery for a variety of reasons, and that's where, to your point, the skill of a manager and having that conversation and the app sort of would prompt you then to ask the conversation to understand what's going on. And it's impossible to predict what the ranges of those, of those things are. But the first part of it is driving awareness around it. And what we've realized as a company is that tech will not purely solve this problem. We've now built an approach and a framework to drive this in organizations and in many ways, we feel that we've built the OKR or Agile of today of what exists in a hybrid and generative AI world to give people a way to think about sort of overall performance. Projjal Ghatak: And for me, well-being is a high ROI activity to drive performance 'cause I went through clinical anxiety in 2022 as a founder and I saw what that did to my productivity and performance as a professional. And so, yes, I care about people, but for me, it's about tracking the right things to bring the best out of people. And there's enough research now shows that if your phone or a human being is running at 5% battery, no matter how powerful that battery is, it's gonna lose charge and die out. And burnout is a very specific sort of outcome that takes place. And that very much sits at the base of performance. Joel: Yeah. Wanna talk about, you had mentioned using AI wrong, but your thesis is basically that traditional performance management is broken, so dovetails into a question about competition. I mean, this feels like a lot of brand awareness with Lattice, 15Five, Culture Amp just come to the top of mind. Talk about the competition and how are they doing it incorrectly? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. Jack Altman's got out and said there is no room for generative AI in performance management. So he's being public about it. And that's because the pain of performance management and writing reviews does not lie with HR, it writes with managers and the other ones who suffer in the process. And because we serve managers above all else, we are maniacally focused on driving an experience that lead to consistently positive and fair outcomes while taking the friction out. Lattice, on the other hand is building an HRS because his HR customer wants one system. And so so ultimately what you build is a factor of who your customer is. And my competition from a performance management lens is building for a different buyer who's not necessarily asking for lower friction in how things are done, but their end user, which is the manager is, which is where I'm focused. Joel: So who's the ideal customer for you? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So it's either a GM or an MD of a business unit. So we love selling to creative agencies where there's an MD that runs an org of 50-200, where they understand that the only two levers to retaining talent is better managers or more pay. Often more pay is not doable, so better managers is the answer. Or it's a COO of a growing organization where strategic people, productivity, strategy and ops is often what it's called in tech. I spent a lot of time at Uber in strategy and ops doing a lot of work. Ultimately, my job was to make people productive. And so that function would sort of takes care of how to think about meeting company objectives from the right people. Or it can be someone who runs an org of 50-plus people. We work with the supply chain org, Beyond Meat, for a long time instead of driving motivation and outcomes at a time of rapid change, and so typically it's someone that themselves run an organization of 50-plus people. They can either own a full P&L or own a department or a full company. Joel: So as someone, a proud member of the generation that said rub some dirt on it and shut the hell up, this feels very warm and funny, very, very millennial Gen Z. Talk about the generational divide and wanting this kind of feedback and how your product supports sort of the younger, upcoming generation. Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So obviously, I think everybody wants feedback, right? Like I think the question is, what are people vocal about? And I think with the millennial and Gen Z generation has just been a lot more vocal about they want ongoing feedback. But I think sort of wanting to know where you stand is a fundamental human need that doesn't differ between someone who is millennial or Gen Z or older. But I think what we've done is that we've done things like voice input, et cetera, into the app that makes it easier for habits of what you call older generations that make the product easier from the sense of a leader 'cause ultimately we are selling into a senior exec in many ways and sort of bridging that gap between what people want and what people are comfortable doing. And so for us in our organization we serve, the leader we sell to is typically sort of in their late 30s to early 40s, but the orgs sort of they run, are anywhere between sort of people in the early 20s to ranging all the way. And so as a business, we do need to think about experientially who that applies to, and frankly, a huge benefit that we have is that we have a global diverse team and we are building for ourselves and ultimately we are representative of our market, which helps a ton in having that empathy around who we're building for. Chad: So you, or at least what I've seen from the marketing, you guys are leaning pretty heavily on hybrid work. Why? Projjal Ghatak: We just think the pain is greater, right? So when 30 people are in the same room and working outta the same office, issues around alignment, clarity, visibility, et cetera, are not a burning piece or a pain point, right? And that's why we believe this problem that we're solving is not a new problem, right? This problems existed for a very long time, but there is a double confluence of the problem becoming more acute because the clarifying loops are a lot lesser when people are working in a hybrid setting. And b, generative AI provides us a brand new way to solve an age old problem by taking a lot of the friction out around hot topics like goals and feedback. And so for us, you know, as a problem solver, like I'm a doctor, I'm looking for the most complicated patient who needs my help the most. And typically for what we solve, hybrid organizations need more help. But we have a set of customers who are not hybrid who equally see value in the work that we do. Chad: So how do you collect the performance data? So are you integrated into Salesforce, HubSpot, human capital management platforms? Where are you getting your data? Because I'm gonna need sales data, marketing leads data, attendance, promotion data, that kind of stuff. How do you get the data into your system so that your gen AI can actually mix it up and batch it into something that makes sense to me? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So what exists in other systems is what we call targets, right? So that is sort of hard metrics around what people are achieving. We have a sort of CSB way of uploading that and keeping that going. We haven't done deep integrations yet with all of those platforms, although we are talking to people like Cobalt who have sort of super APIs, that can, that can sort of connect across the board. But actually what we help quantify a lot more is sort of the softer, qualitative behavioral feedback as well as sort of project work or skills work that sort of gets input 360 into the app in a micro manner. And then we create something called a prism summary at the end of it that can exist as a PDF or editable doc or a JSON that can get pushed into an HRIS. So sort of as a platform, we will eventually bidirectionally connect with every HRIS, whereby we'll pick up sort of employee data, as input in the early part and sort of be able to then push outputs on the other end and then sort of being able to pull in targets or tasks from other sort of tools that people would use on the other side. Chad: So it sounds like right now you don't have the bidirectional that's going, so how often does somebody have to manually enter the information through spreadsheet or what, I mean if they get it, they've gotta pull it, they've gotta manually pull it from another system. They probably have to clean up the data and then push it into you guys. So there's a lot of manual work that's going on, right? How often, usually, does that happen? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So typically there's a big lift that takes place in our organization. Usually at the start of a year or the start of a planning cycle, right? So for larger organizations there's usually a planning cycle that takes place that then sort of sets KPIs or targets at some cadence and sort of uploading that at one go at onboarding is pretty straightforward. And then people sort of keep that updated as they go. Now the kind of companies we work with often don't even have that level of robustness, in terms of sort of where things are kept. And so they're fine with sort of individuals also sort of keeping things updated as they go. What we care a lot more is feedback happening on an ongoing basis and then on a quarterly basis being able to spit out a prism summary that combines goals celebrates and improves. But the core habit that's much more regular and important to drive is driving observations as an individual as well as people working on a particular project to provide observations on a regular basis, which is as simple as an unstructured voice note, which we then convert to structured feedback, and then attach it to a particular goal. Chad: Why aren't you guys focusing on the enterprise? Because the enterprise is one of the hardest performance-driven sets of organizations, number one, but the performance review still sucks. So being able to pull all of that data at scale just makes sense. Why haven't you guys focused narrowly on enterprise? Projjal Ghatak: Great question. So ultimately you build what people ask for. And so we are in the process of getting our SOC 2 certification, and we will more progressively sell to larger companies. Asana today, at 440 million, sells exclusively to CIOs, and that's how they build their business. Asana would not be Asana if they started selling to CIOs on day zero. And so it is, if you're trying to build a disruptive end user product that drives a change in how things are done, you first need to build a coalition among the people they're trying to help, and then eventually push that into a functional organization like HR and IT over time. So as a company, if we become phenomenally successful, we will only sell to HR and IT one day. But HR and IT tend to not be early adopters of products. They tend to be late adopters or laggards in how they buy. And therefore, typically if you're selling to enterprise on day zero, you're not gonna be disruptive and driving change. You will then do what that enterprise is gonna ask you to do. And we're fundamentally changing how companies operate and therefore there's a sequential sort of process on how you go about it. Joel: Chad, I don't know about you, but this sounds crazy expensive. JJ, talk about the pricing. What can a company expect to pay for OnLoop services? Projjal Ghatak: Yes. So this is, this is where when you don't have all the engineers in California, things are a whole lot cheaper. So we sort of start at $500 a month and that sort of covers organizations of up to 50. And then we scale based on organizational size. Our typical sort of sweet spot today, is serving orgs between sort of 100 and 400 people. And that's an org. It may not, it may be a larger company, was the org that we serve. And that sort of works out to about $1,500, $2,000 a month. So it works out to be an 18k to a 25 or 30k contract annually, which is not, which is actually fairly reasonable based on what I've seen people buy at what prices in larger companies. Joel: All right, JJ, that is the bell. It's time to face the Firing Squad. Are you ready, my friend? Projjal Ghatak: I am ready. Joel: All right. Chad, get him. Chad: All right, JJ, I gotta say, so performance management is broken. You are 100% right, but it hasn't been fixed thus far. And you gotta ask yourself why? Right? You gotta ask yourself why, but it's broken. Totally get it. So I understand where you're going. Because I've been in management leadership position since I've been in my early 20s. And do you know what sucks about that position? Performance review. Not just people, I mean people suck, don't get me wrong. But performance review. So using gen AI to spit out summaries, bullets or whatever format the user wants to refresh their memory on their employees wins, losses, and overall performance is unique and wonderful. I mean it's like a breath of fresh air, my friend, if you're integrated into the systems that have the performance data, that's the big key. Right? You're not quite there yet. Chad: There's still some work to get there. I believe you are leaning way too hard on hybrid because in all of those companies, I was even in the US military, we had to do those and they sucked. Right? [chuckle] So there's a lot of, I think, from what I'm listening to you here, whether it's your tam, it's your go-to-market, it's your customer profiles, all of it. It feels like you're still litmus testing. Right? And I get that, but my friend, you've been in this long enough, my advice is you pick a target, you hit that targets over and over and over until you hit that 2 million, 5 million, 6 million, then you sell this. Discipline, my friend. That's one of the things that right now you are missing. Litmus test time is over. This is, this bitch is ready to run. You're not running yet, so therefore gonna give you a golf clap. I think you're there. I just wanna see the discipline and see you just kill it, man. Joel: All right, JJ, not too shabby, but it's my turn, my friend. So buckle up. I'm gonna start with the jockey on this one. I was telling Chad before you got on the call, I said, this dude is a baller. Like look at his LinkedIn profile, you know, his advisory roles, his role at Uber, like the jockey has got it going on, and even your co-founder as well. Chad: Man crush, man crush alert, man crush. Joel: We didn't talk much about the co-founder, but she's stellar too. So, like the jockeys at this company, I think, are, from what I can tell, really really solid. And I think you're the second Uber employee that we've talked to on a startup end, so that, like whatever's in the water at Uber, in terms of people that have gone on to start companies is pretty solid. So as I move on to that into the company itself, look, I think this is where companies are moving and this is where the world is moving. I think from a generational standpoint, younger people want that constant contact. They want that feedback loop. They want it all the time. And if you don't do that as a company, you're going to fall behind. Like there's just no way around it. Joel: I think from Chad's point, managers want the same thing. They want an automated way to keep hands on their team, what's going on, check the pulse on a regular basis. I think that's all where the world is going and there is competition. I think you guys are gonna have a place in that, on that field, no question about it for me. I also think from a recruiting standpoint, people are kind of tired of being on the Jorbo wheel, hamster wheel of let's post another job that was the same job we posted six months ago. Let's like get people back in the whole system of hiring and interviewing, like just people are kind of tired of just being on that hamster wheel for eternity. They're looking at ways to upskill their people. They're looking at ways to make them feel better at work, at helping them become better, either human beings or employees. Joel: So from all those counts, for me, like in raising money, I think the money's gonna come. I think, when the news story crosses our desk that you guys have raised $20, $25 million, it's not gonna surprise me whatsoever. I think you'll be an acquisition target for sure, for a lot of ATSs and other platforms out there. So for me, like this is a no-brainer. It is a big applause. [applause] Joel: Big applause from me. So JJ, big applause from me. Golf clap from Chad. So, take that for what it's worth. But you come out of the Firing Squad with your dignity intact and your face is not bloodied or scarred. So how do you feel? Projjal Ghatak: That was great. I had a great time. Thank you. Y'all were not brutal at all. Joel: Oh, you're welcome. We aim to please. [laughter] Joel: We aim to please. All right, JJ, for our listeners that wanna know more about you, where would you send them? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. LinkedIn's probably the best. And so search for OnLoop or JJ Ghatak and you'll find me. I read every message that comes through on LinkedIn. I may not reply to everyone, but I do read it. Joel: Even the spam. All right, that is JJ Ghatak from OnLoop, Keanu Reeve's next new movie coming out this summer at onloop.com. Chad, another one in the can. We Out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been The Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad & Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face The Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.chadcheese.com.

What's on tap on this episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast Does Europe? Munich-based company Personio has laid off 101 employees, constituting 5% of its workforce, to strengthen its market position and advance its product roadmap. The layoffs primarily affected the technology and product departments. The move follows Personio's valuation at $8.5 billion, and the boys discuss the trend of venture capital and private equity focusing on headcount growth, emphasizing the importance of revenue. They predict more layoffs from other unicorns that have received substantial funding. The discussion also touches on the IPO plans for Personio and the challenges faced by companies expanding to the US, citing the example of VONQ. The podcast later features a "Who'd You Rather" segment comparing two companies, HireAra and Poetry HR, and their recent funding rounds. The hosts share their preferences, highlighting the significance of the founders in their decision-making. The episode concludes with a discussion on Amazon's French arm being fined over 27 million pounds for implementing an intrusive surveillance system to monitor staff performance. The hosts express varying opinions on the impact of the fine and the ongoing global conversation about workplace monitoring and employee privacy. Looking to attend House of HR's E-recruitment Congress in March? Use CODE CP51000 and get 50% OFF when you register at https://www.erecruitment-congress.com TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. [music] Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Ooohhhh, yeah. Three guys who feel totally violated by all the European privacy laws, and we kinda like it. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel "Jamison" Cheesman. Chad: I'm Chad "How many did they sell?" Sowash. Lieven: And I'm Lieven "Stressed until the congress" Van Nieuwenhuyze. [laughter] Joel: And on this episode, Personio Gets Laid, Who'd You Rather, and Amazon's excessive intrusiveness. Let's do this. Chad: Dude, that's laid off. That's, the laid. That's laid off. Joel: Oh. I read that headline wrong. Oh. Oh, dammit. Chad: It's okay. Joel: 'Cause those Germans get nuts. Those Germans get out of control. I know it. I know. Chad: That's what I've heard. Joel: I've seen the Oktoberfest videos on TikTok. [laughter] Joel: Lieven, have you been to Oktoberfest? Lieven: Not yet. But I'm definitely going to do it. Joel: What? No. Lieven: I'm definitely going someday. I've never been to the real one. In Munich, never. Joel: That's it. We're recording an episode at some point in Oktoberfest, at Oktoberfest. Chad: There's no reason not to. [laughter] Chad: There's no reason not to. Lieven: We should. Chad: We're manifesting it right now. Joel: That's right. Chad: We're gonna make it happen. Joel: And sponsored by Personio at this point. They don't know it yet... [laughter] Joel: But they're gonna be sponsoring our trip to Oktoberfest. Chad: They don't have to know it. They don't have to know. Joel: They don't have to know. [laughter] Chad: It's all good. It's all good. Yeah. Joel: So Lieven's been busy. I'd say we get right to his shoutout 'cause he's got a tight schedule with this conference coming up. Lieven, what's going on? Lieven: Do you know how much work it is to organize a congress? Joel: No clue. Chad: I do. Joel: Chad does know. Chad knows. Lieven: If you ever feel about maybe getting into organizing congresses, just forget about it and do something else. [laughter] Lieven: But I think everything now is more or less okay. Joel: What's Rika gonna say when she hears that? [laughter] Lieven: Hi, Rika. [laughter] Lieven: Hi, Rika. How are you? [laughter] Lieven: I don't know. She'll say, "It's your job and get on it," or something. Chad: "And get it done." Yes. Lieven: "Get it done and don't complain, don't whine." Something like that. [laughter] Lieven: That's Rika. Joel: That sounds like Rika. Lieven: But we still love her. Oh, well, so the congress, it's still March 19th. Everything is okay by now. The registrations are coming in. I saw something about, was it UNLEASH who were boasting to have 900 people? Chad: RecFest. Yeah. Yeah. Lieven: RecFest. It was RecFest. I'm sorry. Registering even before the website was up or something. We have 300 already. It's almost the same thing. It's almost the same thing. Joel: Intimacy... Chad: 'Cause you've got 750 seats only, that's correct? Lieven: Yeah, that's right. So they'll be filled. Yeah. Chad: Okay. Yep. And they can be filled at half price if you go to chadcheese.com/events. Joel: Oh yeah. Lieven: That's right. Chad: Up in the header, you're gonna see a beautiful E-recruitment Congress. It's gonna be nice. It's gonna be lovely, it's gonna be beautiful. There's gonna be a registration button. Just hit the registration button, use the discount code that'll be right there. And next thing you know, kids, half off. Joel: So sexy. Lieven: And I would prefer to sell all those seats for the full price. But... [laughter] Lieven: If you really, really insist, you can use the promo you'll find on the Chad and Cheese website. [laughter] Lieven: Anyway. Sorry, Rika. Sorry. They made me do it. Chad: Yeah, we did. Joel: Love some Rika. Love some Rika. What do you got, Chad, for shout-outs? Chad: Oh, baby. You know what time it is. Joel: Oh, no. Chad: Shout-out time for Wrexham. Shout-out time for Wrexham. [laughter] Joel: Gee, a Wrexham shout-out from Chad, shocker. Chad: If you listen to the show, you know I love me some Wrexham, you know I love me some Welcome to Wrexham. Although, Wrexham sells more than Arsenal. That's right, kids. Arsenal, in the USA. And from my understanding, Arthur Okonkwo, who is the newest keeper for Wrexham, is one of the biggest selling jerseys. So, big shout-out to Wrexham. Europe, there's one thing that America can do better than anybody else in the world. That's... Joel: Buy shit. [chuckle] Chad: Productize and monetize. Productize and monetize, and that's exactly what we did. So shout-out to Wrexham and the Premier League. Joel: And shout-out secondarily to China who sponsors Wrexham with TikTok, who clearly is probably amping the algorithm to sell more TikTok jerseys. I mean, Wrexham jerseys... [laughter] Joel: In the United States. That's a good one, Chad. Are you gonna make it to Wrexham this year? You have it in your schedule, right? You're gonna make it to Wrexham? Chad: I am right now planning, after RecFest, to be able to shoot up to Wrexham and hopefully catch a match. If not catch a match, I'll have to take a look at schedules. At least just check out the place, for God's sakes. Have a beer around the stadium. Joel: I have a sneaking suspicion that you won't be the only American walking around in Wrexham this time of year thanks to the... Chad: Yeah. With a Wrexham jersey on. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Thanks to the success of the show. I feel like there'll be a few Americans there. Well, my shout-out goes out to no Americans whatsoever. The Six Nations rugby tournament is happening as we record this podcast. Chad: What is this? Joel: So this is great. This, to our American friends and anyone else that it's probably available to, Netflix now has a documentary on Six Nations. They look at last year's tournament, they highlight each team, they highlight the best players from those teams and the coaches. And it's a real nice introductory to rugby and the Six Nations, and the countries and the personalities around it. I, for one, kind of interested in this. Ireland is a juggernaut that is looking to be a back-to-back Grand Slam champion, which has never been done apparently. They just beat France 38-17, and France is arguably the second best team. Scotland had a big comeback win this past weekend. So there's good stuff here. It's not quite as accessible in America television-wise as I would like it to be. But it is a cool deal. These countries get really fired up, as they normally do. They don't go to war anymore. They play rugby and soccer. And this is a great way to, I don't know, experience the passion around beating each other up on a rugby field because they can't do it on a battlefield. So, shout-out from me to the Six Nations rugby tournament. Chad: And then also Netflix 'cause Netflix is putting out some amazing global content. They just put out a limited series around the World Cup. Soccer, our... As you will know in Europe, is football, and focused on captains. It's entitled Captains. Following Messi, Ronaldo, all the big captains. They're doing some amazing, amazing work in being able to get that divide, across the divide for rugby, football/soccer, etcetera, etcetera. Joel: And don't forget, they just signed the WWE contract to show that on. So between that, and there's also a NASCAR documentary, we're really, really exporting Americanism to the rest of the world, thanks to Netflix. Chad: Thank God for Six Nations. [laughter] [music] Chad: Topics. Joel: All right. Let's get right to the news, everybody. Munich-based Personio has laid off 101 employees constituting 5% of its workforce, primarily from its technology and product departments. They said the move is a strategic decision to strengthen its position in the market and advance its product roadmap. In case you missed it, Personio valued at $8.5 billion specializes in providing recruitment services to SMEs and they operate in multiple locations globally, serving over 10,000 clients across Europe with a workforce of 2100 employees. Chad, what are your thoughts on the Personio headcount reduction? Chad: We've seen over the years that VC and PE really focus on headcount growth after they give out the money. They wanna see heads, they wanna see butts in seats to be able to demonstrate success. I know that, you're gonna need people to drive innovation and product. But when a lot of these unicorn companies get crazy amounts of cash, they are expected, they are expected, by VC and PE to just flush headcount growth. This is what the end result becomes in many cases. Then we look at the founder, we point our finger at the founder, say, "Why did you do this? This is ridiculous." It is, but they are at the whims, in many cases, of PE and VC. At the end of the day, this shouldn't be a surprise. And we're gonna see a lot more of this from other unicorns, which we have already, but we'll see more, that had to... They had to go down the same road. They had to, they were told to. S?: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Let me give you three letters on my commentary. I... Chad: Oh, Jesus Christ. Joel: P and O. These guys were talking about IPO a year ago in '23 of January. And it's now a year later and they've been, still been talking about IPO. We released a while back Coming to America. They've opened up an office in New York city. They continue to grow their headcount in Europe. And they need to cut some costs, if they're going to go IPO. They need to add a little bit to the bottomline. Like Chad mentioned, they are not yet profitable even after raising $724 million. Cutting headcount is a great way to boost the bottomline and look great on Wall Street. I think that's a big part of the move to lay off a fairly modest 5% of your workforce. I think the second thing to point out is that, most of the people laid off were in the technology and product departments. Joel: I have to wonder, as Meta stock goes up 20% in Mark Zuckerberg's year of efficiency, if there's not a lot of pressure from investors to say, "Hey, do we really need that much in the way of technology and product?" And that pressure is coming down on everyone and Personio is part of that. They probably overhired in '22 and '23 in the tech and product department. They are now making a change to balance that out by laying off more tech and product people. And as a side note, I think we're gonna see a lot more companies laying off their tech and product people, thanks to Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook's/Meta's year of efficiency. Time will tell if '24 is the year that we see the Personio IPO. But I think this headcount reduction is a sign that they still are on track for a 2024 IPO. Lieven: Could be, could be. But I think I read somewhere that they are planning on hiring 150 new profiles, so they're laying off 100 persons, but they are hiring more. I don't think it's budget cuts, could be. But I think when a company is growing, when they're evolving, at a certain point, they'll need different specialties and they'll need all skills than they used to need. Sometimes you can reskill people and you can have them grow with you, but sometimes those people just don't want to or they can't be reskilled. And sometimes it's just good to have new blood in the company. So I don't think it's that's weird to have 5% of your people laid off. Now, it's drastic because it's all at once. But there's a normal turnaround, 5% isn't that much. And it still sucks, of course, for the people getting laid off. It's always a blow. That didn't really strike me as something unexpected or anything. I do have a problem though, with valuation of eight billion for a company that still isn't profitable. It's absurd. There are so many companies making decent amounts of money that could use a bit of extra cash to grow even faster. But probably someone knows something I don't and they're happily investing and continue, continuously doing so. Is it known, by the way, what revenue they have? I couldn't find it immediately. Joel: Yeah, AIM Group reported they're not a profitable company yet. So wherever they got it from, we don't know revenues. Lieven: But they could have a lot of revenue, but maybe their costs are even higher. I don't know. But I'm not sure about the revenue. If the revenue was growing fast, then it would make sense to give them a real big valuation because maybe in two years they would become very profitable. Like Tesla did, for example. They've been burning money for years and suddenly they're making cash like water. But I don't think this is the case here, but I'm not sure. So for me, I don't know, whatever. Joel: I think Chad and I talked on the weekly show about VONQ, successful European company coming to America, hiring top talent and getting a team around that is by all accounts a great team. Wheels come off, talent leaves, laid off, that did not work out for VONQ. So as Personio looks to come to America, I hope they listen to that episode and look at VONQ as an example of knowing how difficult it is for a European company to come to America. I don't know where those additional staff came from, but they're gonna have to hire people in America, and hopefully for them they do it right because it has gone very wrong for many companies in Europe that are trying to come to America. Chad: Yeah. I wanna say your prediction in 2024 of no IPO, I don't see this happening in 2024. I think they're getting ready for 2025. I don't think as many people look at Zuckerberg as you'd like to think that they do, or Elon Musk. I think if they want to use them as an excuse to do something, maybe, but that's not why they're doing it. And at the end of the day, also, you're talking about the cycles, Lieven. And I agree 100%. You've got a cycle of the type of talent that you need in an organization. And we've gotta remember, these guys are still somewhat of a startup. They've got a shit ton of cash, they're a startup. And the cycle is, you build the product, and then you have that MVP and then you go to market. Well, a lot of these companies who got a shit ton of cash, after they did the MVP, they didn't turn on the revenue jets and focus on, "Okay, the product's built to an MVP level. Now let's go sell the shit out of it, get into a revenue generating cycle, and then start to build more features and whatnot later." I think a lot of these unicorns, unfortunately, they don't follow that normal cycle. And this is what we're seeing happens. PE forces headcount, headcount growth, and then also you see that they skip a few steps because they got so much fucking cash. Joel: There are probably one or two Facebook shareholders that would disagree with your sentiment on Mark Zuckerberg. [laughter] Joel: Let's take a quick break and we'll play a little game of Who'd You Rather. All right, guys, it's that time again. We all know how to play a little, Who'd You Rather. In case you don't know, we talk about two companies that have recently raised money and each of us sounds off on who we'd rather. S?: What are you doing, stepbro? [chuckle] Joel: All right. In one corner we have, London-based HireAra has raised €527,000 in seed funding for its AI-powered candidate presentation platform designed for recruitment agencies. The platform enables recruiters to showcase their brand and candidates effectively to hiring clients, thereby expediting the placement of candidates in new roles. The seed funding will support the expansion of HireAra's sales team, introduce two new content products in 2024, and advance its mission to modernize the recruitment industry. That is HireAra. And in the opposing corner, we have... S?: Welcome to All Things Scottish. Our slogan is, "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" Joel: That's right. It's Glasgow-based Poetry HR. They've successfully concluded an early stage funding round to accelerate their mission of providing talent acquisition and recruitment process outsourcing solutions to the US and UK markets. The funding will be utilized to expand the product and technology team, as well as to promote the company's 30 generative AI-powered recruiter enablement solutions through marketing campaigns. The co-founder and director and friend of the show, Adam Gordon, has also founded Candidate.ID, which was acquired by iCIMS. The startup touts over 280 companies as users. Investors in the round include Recruiting Ventures, Doug Berg, and some asshole name Chad Sowash. So, guys, that is our two... [laughter] Joel: That is our two competing companies. Chad, you are commenting on why you're investing, but not exclusive... We're just gonna guess that you're gonna rather do Poetry. Chad: Oh yeah. Duh. Yeah. Joel: Please feel free to not because it'd make for a great show. But otherwise... [laughter] Joel: Let's go to you in terms of who'd you rather, and why'd you invest in Poetry HR? Chad: Yeah. In advising founders over the years, one of the things that we've talked on the show, Firing Squad after Firing Squad is, always bet on the jockey. And there are two amazing jockeys at Poetry. You've got Adam Gordon and you've got Mike Hughes. And I was with them, an investor and also an advisor with Candidate.ID. And not only did they blow that one out of the water from an expectation standpoint, they were able to switch and go directly into something that we've been talking about for years. The recruiter desktop is a fucking mess. There are 27,000 tabs that they have open. They've got 30 different platforms they have to use, yada, yada, yada. And Joel and I, you and I have been talking about the platform to rule them all for, shit, about seven years now. Chad: At this point, the platform to rule them all is not going to exist. What's going to exist is the recruiter desktop that allows the enablement of pretty much all these systems in one screen, or at least the connectivity between that, and then being able to use AI to create that efficiency. So, two things. We've got these amazing founders who I already have experience with. And it's 2:00 AM in the bar, you're definitely going to go to the hot blonde that you already know. And then secondarily, they've got a road of success in the space, they've got connections and they know exactly where they want to go to be able to look for an exit. Which is one of the reasons why I love these guys, I'm incredibly biased, but definitely Poetry all day. S?: Ay, papi. Joel: Just for the record, the girls that I knew I had a less chance of with than the girls I didn't know... [laughter] Joel: 'Cause they knew what a jerk I was. The best companies are ones that typically become time machines. In other words, they give you time back, they save you time 'cause time is money. So if I can save you time, then you're more willing or more able or more likely to use my product than if you have to actually invest more time in your day to use the product. And frankly, that's a big problem with a lot of products in our space, is they require more time and energy to figure them out than they do save you time. Both of these services make a really hard sell to how much time they're going to save you. And if you go to HireAra's site, there's literally a calculator where you can put in your recs and your employees and put in the numbers, and it'll spit out exactly how much time you'll be saving with the product. Which is kind of cool, I like the ROI calculator. Poetry on the other hand, exclusively, or not exclusively, but they highlight extensively that they will save recruiters 31 minutes per day by using their products. So they've actually, I don't know how Adam came up, it sounds like some Scottish math to me, but I don't know how they got so granular that they can say... [laughter] Joel: 31 minutes. I'm surprised he didn't throw in like 22 seconds or something to make it more exact. So both these companies are looking to save you time. To me, this comes down to the jockey. I'll echo Chad's sentiments. Adam has a great reputation, at least out of Scotland. Within Scotland, I don't know, he's a little sketchy and shady. But outside of Scotland, I think he's a solid dude. He's got a track record. He has done a fantastic job of branding himself, as well as his organizations within the industry. He'll talk about, like, "Hey, when I'm starting a company, I'm wearing a kilt, I'm going to these crazy Firing Squad things and being nutty," because he knows how to sell a product and that's going to translate into more than likely selling this product in six months to a year, maybe a little longer for a better price. But he's in the pole position to sell his thing. So jockey-wise, Poetry is head and shoulders, I think, above the founders of HireAra. In terms of the product, for me, there's just not much of a moat to say, "Here's a CV and we're gonna translate it into a cute branded, maybe highlighted or kind of a TL;DR version of the resume and then sell that as a staffing firm." Joel: I don't see a ton of value there, and I don't see a ton of a moat where other people can't do that in a pretty quick and easy way. Particularly with AI the way that it is, to be able to take content and put it in a format that is more easily readable by your customers, I don't see a big moat there. In contrast, Poetry, more of a moat. They have competition. They're probably gonna see more. But I feel like there's more of an emotional connection because if I build my tools within Poetry, I have a connection there, it's personal. To me, it feels warm and fuzzy, it feels... The connection is there, and it's real. Both companies are priced pretty similarly. I don't feel like it's a... Both of these guys will probably be acquired at some point. The staffing space in the UK is really competitive and people are spending money there as well. But for me, as much as it pains me to give Adam Gordon more pub... [laughter] Joel: I'm gonna go with Poetry as my Who'd You Rather. Congratulations, Adam. Lieven? Lieven: Cool. Did I get it right? Adam Gordon didn't only invest in Poetry, but also in HireAra. S?: Say what? Chad: That's great. So they both are looking for an exit. [laughter] Lieven: I guess so. And Adam Gordon says about HireAra, "I've invested in HireAra because I can see that our technology is a logical adoption for every agency big and small, and that it can save thousands, blah, blah, blah." But... And they're quoting him, so it must be true. Anyways, when I was doing my homework, I said, "Okay, if Adam Gordon, my favorite Scotsman... " S?: Welcome to All Things Scottish. Our slogan is, "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" Lieven: There's one even... Whatever. He's investing in HireAra, that must be doing something good. But then I heard about Poetry and he's even launching it. So, I think I'll go for both. [laughter] Lieven: Yeah. Just like Adam did. [laughter] [music] Joel: That's right, he went for two, he went for the boats and the hoes. Everybody, that is another episode of, Who'd You Rather. Looks like Poetry is poetry in motion. All right. Let's go to a company that is not so much Chad's favorite company, Amazon. Well, France's data watchdog has fined Amazon's French arm over £27 million or €35 million, wherever you're listening from, for implementing "excessively intrusive surveillance system to monitor staff performance." The system included indicators tracking employees inactivity time and the speed of scanning items deemed illegal and excessive by investigators. Amazon disagrees with the fine and will probably appeal, asserting the necessity of industry-standard warehouse management systems for safety, quality, and efficiency. Critics say the broader context highlights the ongoing global conversation on the balance between workplace monitoring and employee privacy. Chad, what are your thoughts on Amazon getting pinched in France? Chad: I get the safety concerns. If that was the case, maybe they would slow down the belt a little bit and not force some of their employees to piss in garbage cans when they're on the line. It's a little bit of a balance here. They're trying to tiptoe around the tulips. I don't see any employee wanting to be monitored, whether it's a monitoring system that's on their computer or in a warehouse. But at the end of the day, especially in Europe, this is not going to fly. If they want these practices to work, they're just gonna have to use them in the US because we'll allow that shit all day. So I think in Europe, they need to have a much different business model and being able to ensure that their "safety" is actually happening versus the US. Joel: We talked recently about Google in South Korea, and Google behaving like an American company in Korea, which has led to people not leaving the office and just doing what Americans would not do. Chad: They were requested to resign. They were requested to resign. [laughter] Joel: Yes, requested to resign. Yeah. Go see the episode if you wanna hear about this. But my point is that, Americans coming to foreign countries, behaving like American companies and then thinking that people will behave in a similar way is now biting Amazon in the ass, just like it has Google and Facebook and others. [laughter] Joel: America, yeah, we're cool with peeing in trash cans. We're cool with monitor... We expect monitoring. Chad: No, we're not. Joel: Well... [laughter] Joel: We do it. And Amazon is still making a lot of money, and my wife is still ordering from Amazon. So, it does work from that perspective. You can't go to Europe and expect things to go the way that they do in America. The question for me is, is a 35 million euro fine a big deal to Amazon? No, it's not. But... They'll tweak their shit in France and try to get around as much as they can by still keeping. They'll appeal, like they said, they'll draw this thing out. Will other countries that Amazon is in in Europe also file suit? Probably. Is it built in to Amazon's budget? Probably. Are things really gonna change in any significant way? Not today, not tomorrow, maybe 10 years from now. But as far as I can see, this is Amazon playing the American game of, "Let's go to the courts and let's string this thing out. And if there is a fine, well, we'll just go to the couch cushions and find the money, write a check," and it's business as usual, full steam ahead for companies as big as Amazon. Lieven: I've been following the company since 2015 and it's been a whole series of stories about wrongdoing to their own employees, and it's been that way for, I guess, even longer than I've been following them. They're called a low price and low wage giant, and I've got a problem with that. If their owner is the richest man in the world, then you should grant your own colleagues something as well. And I guess the board gets lots of money and the top management gets lots of money. But I was told, I'm not sure if it's still the case, but it was definitely a few years ago, in Germany, if you wanted to work at Amazon in the warehouses, so the lowest pay jobs, you had to do a tryout, which wasn't paid for weeks, and then you might be accepted, or maybe you weren't accepted and now you didn't get any pay at all. And this is called slavery, I feel. [laughter] Lieven: So, I've got a problem with it. But I'm not sure if it's still the case, and I'm not going to look into it, but... Joel: You can still quit your job and work somewhere else in Europe, right? Lieven: Of course. But the problem is with the people working in those warehouses, they don't have that many options. Those are mostly refugees, people fleeing from some situation which was even worse. They arrive in Germany and the only job they are easily accepted for a free tryout is at Amazon. Chad: It sounds like internships here in the US. To Joel's point is, 35... The fine was nothing. But you've gotta remember, after Google was fined $2.4 billion in 2017, they started thinking twice. I think France is not a country you wanna fuck with. There are many European countries you do not wanna fuck with when it comes to fining. And I think what's gonna happen is, this is gonna be a slap on the wrist, it continues to happen, they're gonna go after a percentage of sales, and when that happens, then that will actually change the whole behavior of how Amazon starts treating this particular topic. They're still gonna screw people over in a million different ways, but in this topic, they will change, but they're gonna have to be forced to change. And I don't think playing chicken with France who is known to be the nation of rebellion, for God's sakes, that's the smart way to go. Joel: Lieven, we're gonna let you get back to work, because you've got... [laughter] Joel: A congress to prepare for. Lieven: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, Rika. Yes, Rika. I'm coming. [laughter] Joel: Boys, another one is in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Lieven: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you, you made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there is no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big-booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful trainwreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

In case you missed it, the nursing profession is going through a pretty challenging time. Whether it's COVID burnout, a severe lack of skilled workers or the Baby Boomers putting immense pressure on the health care system - just to mention a few - times are tough. It's certainly an issue Chad & Cheese aren't qualified to solve, let alone fully understand. That's why Dr. Beth A. Brooks, president of The Brooks Group, joined the boys to discuss a wide variety of topics, such as the current state of nursing, how the gig economy is impacting the profession, the power of pay transparency and if / when the robots will finally be the ones giving colonoscopies. It's a must listen for nurse recruiting professionals, healthcare networks around the country and, frankly, nurses themselves. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. It's your proctologists' favorite podcast, AKA, [laughter] The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheesman, joined as always, the Woody to my Buzz, Mr. Chad Sowash is in the house. And we are just giddy to welcome Dr. Beth A. Brooks, president of the Brooks Group. Beth, welcome to the podcast. Beth Brooks: Hi, and thank you for having me on this nice cold December day. Joel: You can't see her face on the podcast, but she was totally shocked and awed by that intro, so we'll try to bring it down a little bit for you. [laughter] Now, my intro was pretty sparse. I know you have a long resume and a lot of things that you do. So spend a few seconds on your Twitter bio to let our listeners know who you are. Beth Brooks: So I've been a nurse executive, nurse leader for, gosh, 30 years I've been a nurse, and the last probably 20 years of my career have really focused on nurse recruitment, retention, healthy work environment. I've designed a questionnaire to measure the quality of nursing work life that's been used in 50 countries, and it's been translated into 10 languages. So I kind of have a lot of expertise and knowledge around healthy work environment, work life, recruitment and retention of nurses. And it's just been my sweet spot and my passion. And we've gone through some crazy times these last couple of years with nurse recruitment and retention. Joel: Loco. Chad: Yes. Well, let's talk about the state of nursing today. We're coming on the backside of a pandemic. COVID is still out there, obviously. But we're on the backside of a pandemic that was a very large load for nurses and healthcare to actually carry. So where are we at now? Do we still have a higher attrition rate? Higher turnover? What's going on? Joel: Everything's back to normal, right? Beth Brooks: Wah... Chad: And what should we expect? What should we expect? Beth Brooks: I think we should expect not knowing what's coming next. There's a lot of talk amongst my colleagues, and a lot being written about COVID will reshape the nursing workforce in a way that we've not seen in the past. We'll have a whole segment of the workforce that will prefer this gig economy type work, which is very new for someone like me who was a baby boomer nurse who eight hours a day, five days a week, staff nurse. So I think we'll have this gig economy component. We are definitely going to have, I believe and I think some colleagues would agree, a movement away from the 12-hour shifts back to an eight-hour work shift. And that's for a couple of reasons, but primarily from fatigue and burnout. We've really learned through COVID that the 12-hour shift, and there's enough data now that we know about the impact on nurse and patient outcomes, that I see a shift in the hours that nurses work. We've got the gig economy. Beth Brooks: And then I think a whole group of nurses who have come to realize, unlike before, what their value is to the organization, and they wanna be respected, they want to be compensated fairly, and they want to be listened to. And that's sort of the message in every study that's coming out that has been. Those have been the themes. So I think it's gonna be a more demanding workforce and wanting a better work environment that we've had in the past. Chad: So are we gonna move away from the traditional? Or do you see us slowly moving away from the traditional, not just 12 hours, but also we're seeing a lot of apps that are out there that help healthcare systems really focus on being able to manage their people better. Although those people also have the opportunity as you talk about the gig economy, not just to work in their healthcare system, but also to be able to go outside of that healthcare system. And it's almost like an Uber where it's, you're calling inert, you see what shifts are open, and you go down to, let's say for instance here in Columbus, Indiana, we go to Seymour or we go to Greenwood if there's something open and they're paying a little bit more. Do you see that happening where it's a more of a traveling kind of workforce? Beth Brooks: I do. And I think there's a... But not for everybody, right? I think like anything, it's a big workforce and there are segments of the workforce that enjoy that kind of flexibility, autonomy, and freedom. What's interesting about what you said though, Chad, is there have been a couple of large organizations that have made employees sign almost like a pledge, "We're your first, and so you are employed by us, and your loyalty, if you will, is to us. And so we expect you to give your hours to us." And I'm kind of generalizing how I'm saying this. Chad: Yeah. Beth Brooks: I call it a loyalty pledge; I'm sure that's not what they call it... Chad: Yeah. Beth Brooks: But there have been organizations that are trying to... More stickiness, keeping those employees in their workforce, knowing that, yes, many nurses have another job and they're picking up a shift. And maybe that's okay. But then if that's the fifth shift of 12, then you start to ask yourself about fatigue and errors and other things. And that's something that we've never gotten our arms around. Joel: Are they paying a premium for that? Is that kind of maybe a good thing for nursing, like the best of the best get sort of brought into the fold and we're paying you more money, and we'll make it worth your while to give us sort of first ride of refusal or to be your number one opportunity? Is that a good thing maybe? Beth Brooks: I think it's a good thing when hospitals do and put in systems that allow that to work for the nurse, right? If you are going to give us your blood, sweat, and tears, we're going to offer self-scheduling so that you can have control over the schedule. We're going to try to place you on a shift that you wanna be primarily on. So I think it's that give and take about, if you're going to be loyal to our organization, we're going to sort of meet you halfway on how we offer benefits, compensation, maybe it's more continuing education dollars. So it's those kinds of other benefits besides salary that also make a difference. Joel: Do you have a sense of what percentage breakdown right now nursing is sort of contract gig work, and what percentage is the traditional hourly one employer? Beth Brooks: That, Joel, is a really good question, and I can answer it maybe in a slightly different way because I don't know that that's actually tracked. Part of the challenge we have in the country, across the country is there is no one way to identify a nurse. You have a license number, but that could be different in every state. You have some nurses have a DEA number where they can prescribe medication. Some nurses have what's called an identifier that you receive after you take the licensing exam. So it's really hard to know who the workforce is and where they're going, because we just don't have a great standard method to measure. But what we do know is how many nurses are in the Bureau of Labor Statistics category about travel nursing. So the travel nursing segment of nurses doubled during COVID. Now when I say "doubled," that sounds like, "Ah, it's a lot," but when it was 2%, it went to 4%. So that piece, we have better clarity around how many nurses are actually traveling than say I'm a full-time staff nurse versus I'm a full-time per diem nurse. Chad: Can you explain that travel nurse to everybody who might not understand what a travel nurse is versus your full-time on staff? Beth Brooks: There has always been, for as long as I've been a nurse, there's always been an opportunity to be a travel nurse. And so by that, you don't have a home institution. You work for a company that contracts with a hospital. You choose to work at that hospital on a 13-week contract. When that 13-week contract is over, sometimes the hospital will want you to renew; or sometimes the need, perhaps you were covering an LOA or an FMLA or something, and so that need is gone, so they don't renew your contract. But there are nurses who live their life as a travel nurse, and they might spend the winters in Florida working on 13-week contracts, [laughter] right? Or they spend their winters in Colorado skiing, and then they might go to California. So there's this cadre of nurses who literally move around the country going to where they're needed in 13-week increments. And they took a... Chad: Is the pay better? Beth Brooks: The pay is always better. But it's that old apples and oranges, right? You wanna compare your hourly rate to total comp. And then that's where those travel nurses have to think about housing, and they have to think about health insurance. And so that's... Maybe that hourly rate is not as much more than the full-time staff person. Chad: Gotcha. Joel: Talk about the state of recruiting for nurses. Because in this environment where it's sort of a marketplace, maybe nurses are getting reviewed by where they've worked, and you're sort of calling them on when times are, you know, need is higher than others. It's not the traditional post a job, hope to get some resumes, go hit up the schools, and try to get people in your facilities early. How is this changing the dynamics of recruiting? Beth Brooks: So I will start... Answer your question by revealing my bias. Way back in the day, nurse recruiters, talent acquisition was done by a nurse, when RNs were in HR doing recruitment. My perception, I don't have any data, better understanding of the role, better understanding of where a candidate would fit on a department or in a specific unit, and better able to do all the pre-screening down in the HR department before that candidate got to the office. So that model has changed. Healthcare has gone to what I call this retail recruitment model. You see all kinds of other folks coming in to HR in healthcare to be talent acquisition professionals, and they have no experience in healthcare. And that's not to say they can't learn, but it's a two-year learning curve. And so that process has gotten slow. Time to fill has significantly slowed. And quite frankly, we haven't modernized our workflow in HR. And so nurses, you have to be pretty quick and nimble because those candidates have many offers. They have many options. And if you're not quick with your process and bringing someone through, you're gonna lose the top candidates, and that's what we're seeing definitely. Chad: Can you tell us the impact that... Because the US used to have vocational high school programs, which were great feeders to our community healthcare systems, right? Can you tell us the impact that had? Was it a great impact? Did it really not impact that much because kids still had to go to college to be able to get their nursing degrees or their certificates or what have you? Can you tell us what kind of impact that had? Beth Brooks: It had an impact. It always has had an impact only at certain times in our labor economy. Nursing has forever gone through cyclical shortages. And so whenever we go through a cyclical shortage, there's this all-hands-on deck, let's enhance our community pipeline, let's work with the community colleges, let's have opportunities for someone who's in school to do some clinical work, and then they're a part-time employee, and then they move through their education program while they're working. So as soon as we have those downturns where there's a nursing shortage, there's all kinds of activity. And it has worked. It's worked incredibly well to even take, right now, take someone from EVS, environmental services, or someone from dietary services who wants to be a nurse, help them through school and bring them back. So yes, those programs work. Unfortunately, I don't wanna say that they're not sticky, but the urgency of the value of them changes based on where the shortage is happening for registered nurses, when we go through. Chad: Well, there's a lag time, right? I mean, because you can't just turn the spigot on and here comes nurses; you've got a lag time. Beth Brooks: Right, right. Exactly right. And there's all kinds of reason for the lag time. But yes, you're exactly right. Joel: And what's the shortage like now? My perception as an outsider is you have aging baby boomers, you have burnout from the pandemic. I have to imagine shortages are at a all time high maybe, right now? Beth Brooks: I think, yes. And what's interesting about what happened during this last COVID, so enrollment went down, graduations did not keep up where we thought it would. And as that enrollment went down a little bit, then 100,000 nurses left the job market during COVID. And everyone assumed those 100,000 RNs were baby boomers nearing retirement. Well, that wasn't the case. It was young moms and dads trying to balance homeschool [laughter] with their jobs with no daycare available. And so we lost that 100,000. So right now, the latest predictions I've seen is, 500,000 nurses by 2026, at least 500,000 nurses in the next five, six years. We need to find new in addition to the retirements. Joel: So talk to me about solutions for that gap. Chad was in the military, and we read stories about immigrants coming over. And if they are a fighting age and ability, they go to the military if they want to come to the country. Should we be thinking about immigration differently, bringing people in that want to be healthcare providers, get them in the school system, get them into the country? And also the other side of that, we talk about automation a ton. And I know that there are robotics in hospitals and in healthcare systems, but what's your take on immigrants and robots, for lack of a better term, taking some of these openings, which are gonna be a plenty? Beth Brooks: Yes. Well, I will say, and now you're... There has always been, always, always a very active pipeline of nurses coming to America from other parts of the world, right? That is always been the case. The problem with that has been that the countries where those nurses are coming from, they decimate their own health systems. And so we create another problem in other parts of the world. The nursing immigration, again, like anything, picks up when the shortage in America becomes significant and critical, then we ramp up our foreign recruitment of nurses. I've not really heard a lot about bringing young people in as an immigrant to become a nurse. That's not something I'm as familiar with. Although I have heard about, like someone who was a physician in Poland or a physician in Russia who comes to America and then can move through the nursing curriculum quickly. But I'm not familiar with just young people coming in from an immigration perspective. Beth Brooks: And it's unfortunate because we don't have enough bilingual healthcare providers, which impacts healthcare outcomes, which impacts health disparities. So if our nursing workforce, which is something we talk about, looked like the patients we serve, we would be in a much better place from a healthy nation perspective. But we don't have enough of those bilingual healthcare workers. And that would be a wonderful way to look at that. Joel: And the robots? Beth Brooks: Robots. Joel: They can speak all the languages if you want them to. Beth Brooks: Yeah. Well, they already have those, the translation little pods that they wheel around in hospitals or on carts. I don't know that I see robots certainly not as care providers per se, but... And I don't know if you wanna call... Have you heard about the electronic eICUs? I don't... Joel: No, I have not. Beth Brooks: So there's technology where a nurse, usually it's a critical care certified nurse, is sitting in a, let's call it a pod, with three or four other critical care nurses. And they are monitoring an entire ICU three towns over. It's called an eICU. So you have technology supporting remote monitoring, if you will, of hospitalized patients while there's someone in this headquarter pod. And for some reason it's totally slipping my mind what the name of the room they call it. But we do see that as a way to not replace, but... Joel: Augment. Beth Brooks: Enhance. If you don't have enough of the right staff on the unit, you do have your eICU staff that can come into a patient's room. And the technology is such that that camera in the patient's room can zoom right onto like an IV pump or an IV drip, and see what's working and then communicate with the patient. So that is helping. And we have a lot of young nurses coming into nursing right now who need a backup, someone more experienced, and they have that person, the remote ICU monitoring. But the robots, I think, you know what you see now is robots delivering supplies, delivering meals. You see robots in the pharmacy. Joel: So I won't be getting a colonoscopy from a robot anytime soon? Beth Brooks: I don't think so. [laughter] Joel: Unfortunately. Chad: Joel, that's like his major 2024 wish, Beth. He was really looking for a robot colonoscopy. [laughter] So it's funny because what you're talking about, we've actually seen in like hotels where you come in, there's nobody at the front desk, there's an iPad that's there, right? And you're checking in through the front desk. Now, this is how we fix a scale issue because humans don't scale well, right? We need that nurse in that room. But do we need that nurse in the room for all of the duties that the nurse has? Well, in this case, no. There's a command center and they check everything out. So it's very interesting. We're talking about hotels and then being able to scale this way. Let me flip the script on you here for a minute. Now, I understand there's a myth that pay transparency in the healthcare system would create significant cultural changes. What exactly is meant by that cultural changes, just by allowing everybody to know that they're getting paid fairly? Beth Brooks: Just so happens that I've written a couple of... I write a career coaching column for a nursing leadership journal. And one of the articles I wrote was about pay transparency. And one of the benefits of being very forthright with what the hourly pay is, what's the pay scale, what grade, what's the range, those kinds of things, there's three things that the science has said to us. One, it engenders more trust between the employee and the organization. Two, there's this feeling of distributive justice. Everyone's being treated fairly because we know what the compensation or what the ranges are. And actually in one study, it impacted the turnover. The turnover went down. However, it has been challenging for hospitals to have that level of pay transparency. It's not something that... Chad: Why? Beth Brooks: They've ever done. You know what? I think it's the sacred cow, honestly, that probably should be slain. [laughter] Joel: We've always done it this way. Yeah. Beth Brooks: That's what it is, honestly. And I honestly, and I don't think until me too, it really became an issue. And that there was a study that came out from UCSF like 2015. There was a $5000 difference in compensation between men and women nurses, which got everybody. Chad: Oh, yeah. Beth Brooks: So that has begun to change. But then there's, you know, you're not supposed to talk about salary, it's illegal to talk about salary. There's all these perceptions, like the employers say you can't talk about that with your peer. And that's not true. Chad: Right. Beth Brooks: So where we do have really good pay transparency is in our hospitals that have collective bargaining units. Joel: The unions. Chad: Unions, baby. Unions. [laughter] So, what it sounds like is literally we're trying to expand profits. Because the United States, as you know to the GDP, we spend more money than any other country that's out there, although nurses aren't seeing it. So where's that going? And to be able to grow that trust, which we've lost over the last decades, and we need, especially from our healthcare professionals, what do we have to change to make this actually work for our healthcare systems? Because again, Joel said it, boomers are out there, we're gonna have a bulging healthcare system, and we're not gonna have the staff to take care of it. So is that a piece of it? Is it pay transparency? Is it more pay? What do we have to do? What's the short term fix? Beth Brooks: Well, nurses would tell you they want more pay. An hospital CFO will tell you there's no more money. [laughter] So there we go. Right? Now, I don't wanna bore your listeners or either of you with why nursing is on the wrong side of the ledger and on a P&L, but there is a problem with the way nursing care is invisible and is embedded into the room charge, which makes it look like nursing is a cost and not a revenue generator. So until we are shown as generating revenue, which we do, which is a whole another conversation, I could go down that little rabbit hole, but until we show revenue in the hospital, because all the tasks we do that are coded in the computer or physicians get to bill for not the nurses. Chad: Almighty dollar, Cheesman, it's the almighty dollar. Joel: They follow the money. Joel: There's no customers if there's no nurses. I mean, [laughter] there's no customers without nurses, so. Chad: I was gonna say, no, they're going to be customers. They're just not gonna get care. Joel: Yeah. Chad: That's the big... That's the big key there. The customers are not going away... Joel: Yeah. Chad: It's just whether they get care. Beth Brooks: Yeah. So it's the money. I do think that... You said, how do we build trust back into the system? A couple of things. One, better, healthier work environments. We know that burnout is not my problem. A burnout comes from a toxic work environment. So we've got to fix our work environment. We've got to have better listening by the senior team because nurses don't feel listened to. And I think that piece of autonomy and control over your practice, that there's... You would never... One of my colleagues gives this example. If you were a CFO and you walked in and they said to you, "Oh, Joel, today you're gonna have to go work on 5 North rather than your nice office down in the... " That would never happen to a CFO. But if you're a nurse, you can show up at work and they'll say, "Oh, you're not working here today. You're going over to 3 South. See you later. Have fun." And so you have no... You feel like you're this just widget in a system. And hospitals that have worked on their work environments have leaders that listen and have nurses that have a voice in how care is provided. Those are the environments that still may have difficulty recruiting, but they have less difficulty. Joel: And what you're outlining is the recipe for a gig economy uprising. Because if that's the environment that nurses have, I would totally wanna be a freelancer or a contract worker. Because I can tell you how much you're gonna pay me, I can just decide where I'm gonna work. And I also think, I would imagine that from a pay transparency perspective, the gig economy, assuming that you publicize what you want per hour or what you're gonna pay a nurse per hour, then that sort of levels the playing field. Because I can go and say, "Look, the nurses that do exactly the same thing that I do are on the site, they're getting more than me. So I should be getting at least that." Is that happening or should it happen? Beth Brooks: It is. So whether it should or not, it is happening. That's exactly what's going on. Chad: Good. Beth Brooks: And I think it's fine. I think nurses have always been a little bit shy about talking about money, and we're all in it to take care of patients and do the right thing. And absolutely, that's true. But there's something about the work, the caring work of women that has never really been compensated appropriately. But there are nurses who bid on shifts all the time. There's shift bidding apps. We've got a shift over here at hospital A for $50 an hour, and hospital B is gonna pay 60. And you as the nurse can bid on which shift you want... Joel: Love it. Beth Brooks: And then go and do that. And really any nurse can do that as long as you have somewhere to hang your hat where you have benefits. Right? It's hard to not have health insurance. And it's hard to [chuckle] hang through your... Joel: That's a whole other podcast that we can... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Oh yeah. But I mean, we just talked about the country who spends the most in GDP on healthcare, and not all of our people are covered. Whew! That is another... Joel: It's sanity. Chad: A whole another podcast. But Dr. Beth A. Brooks, Beth, we appreciate you coming on the show. And if somebody wanted to reach out to you 'cause they want to dig a little bit deeper into this conversation, where would you send them to connect with you? Beth Brooks: I would send to LinkedIn and just find my LinkedIn profile. Easy. It's right there. Joel: Easy peasy, nacho cheesy. [laughter] Another one in the can, Chad, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Well, thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, with Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

We say a lot of things on the podcast that people disagree with. Most people stop short of writing a blog post about how wrong they think one, or both, of us are. However, Jeff Dickey-Chasins, affectionately known as Job Board Doctor, decided to put the virtual pen-to-paper and express how wrong Joel was in his analysis of how job boards are facing a Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in the form of Google / LinkedIn, AI, automation and the gig economy. Just when you think the debate will get too nasty to take, Chad swoops in as peacemaker ... or is it instigator? A must listen for every job board employee and customer alike. The Doctor is IN. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash And Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. It's your therapist's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Jeff Taylor to my Richard Johnson, Chad Sowash is in the house. And today we welcome a longtime fan of the show. [applause] Joel: Jeff Dickey-Chasins. Chad: There he is. Joel: Owner of Job Board Doctor. Jeff, welcome to the podcast. Jeff: Howdy, boys and girls. I'm sorry. Howdy boys. Joel: Oh, we have girls listening, it's okay. Jeff: Oh, okay. [laughter] Joel: Boys and girls. Yep. Jeff: Thank you for inviting me on. Joel: Sure. Now, you are an icon in the industry, but some people don't know who you are. So for those listeners that don't have a clue, give us the Twitter bio, the elevator pitch on Jeff. Jeff: As an icon, I can say that I started out in the industry back in 1997 with Dice, a little tech job board, and was fortunate enough to sort of see it go public and then exit before everything blew up. I've worked with some other job boards along the way, but in 2009 actually started Job Board Doctor. I'm a business consultant that works with job boards, and no one that I saw out there was really doing that at that point. And I thought, what the hell? And to be quite honest, I've been busy ever since. I've worked with probably 750 job boards around the world. Chad: Wow. Jeff: And pretty much any niche and any location that you can imagine, I think it's really fun. I'm a self-described job board geek and quite proud of it. Joel: Does that work well at the bar when you're picking up chicks? [laughter] Jeff: Yeah. Chad: Not so much. Not so much. How about Wizard behind the job board curtain? Joel: He's the wiz. Nobody beats him. [laughter] Chad: Okay. Okay, listen. Okay. Let's get to business here. So let me set up today's discussion, banter, disagreement, whatever this turns out to be. So in an episode in early November last year entitled, Google Reveals, Indeed Falls, & Labor Wins, Joel waxed poetic on what he called the four horsemen of the job board apocalypse, which mean he believes that these are the four signs that job boards are seeing impending doom. Now then on November 21st, the job Board Doctor, you Jeff, penned an article and entitled, "the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? Sorry. No." which refutes Joel's line of thinking. So now, here at the Chad and Cheese podcast, we love snark, banter and different lines of thinking, which is why today we are going to dig into the horsemen one by one. And here are two diversion paths of thoughts. So are you both ready? Joel: I'm ready. Jeff: You betcha. Chad: Here we go. Play horseman number one. Joel: Number one is Google and LinkedIn. Google for Jobs, no matter what narrative Indeed or anyone else says, is putting a herding on the job board industry. It is a commodity that Google has sort of figured out. And we'll talk about that in our next story. But Google is a juggernaut that job boards haven't quite figured out how to leverage in any scale. And LinkedIn, let's be honest, is the place where you find people, it's where you source people. They've done a great job like it or not of... Chad: It's like crap. Joel: Pushing out the competition. Putting a walled garden around their data. And they've done a really good job of doing that. And now they have open AI thanks to Microsoft's deep pockets to now take that to another level. So the first horseman is LinkedIn and Google. Chad: There we go. That's the first horseman. Jeff, what were your thoughts around that. Joel: Hold on folks. He's chomping at the bit. [laughter] Chad: He just can't wait. Joel: Lay the smack down. Okay, Jeff, what you got? Jeff: I was frankly disappointed in Joel to trot those two out. First of all, LinkedIn has been around since 2004. Every job board that's out there has competed against LinkedIn since 2004. And coexisted and grown and done very, very well. And the ones that couldn't are no longer in the market. What's the big deal? Okay. I have a lot of admiration for LinkedIn. I actually think it is probably in my mind, the number one job board in terms of technical capabilities of what they do, far outstrips what Indeed does. But are they gonna kill the job board industry? Hey, they've had 20 years to do it so far. They haven't pulled it off. It's not gonna happen. And with Google, Google For Jobs, it's just keeps cracking me up. Jeff: Long before the pandemic, I was going to conferences where Google was trotting out saying, we're gonna do this and we're gonna do that. And then they would yank stuff back. They'd put hire out there, all these companies that sign up for it, they'd yank it back, they'd put this out, they'd take it back. And right now, people are saying, oh my God, oh my god. So if it rolls out, big effing deal, right? [laughter] Jeff: Because all it is, is a promotional device that anyone can use. And I can be absolutely positive that every job board will be pumping money into it if they want to. Every employer, if they want to, will do it. And sort of the end result of all that is just sort of a resettling with Google putting more money in their pocket. But that's a big if. Is it ever actually gonna come to market? I am pretty skeptical. I may be wrong, I am rarely wrong, but perhaps this time I'll be wrong. [laughter] Joel: So on on LinkedIn, yeah, they've been around since 2004, but they didn't have a billion people on the platform in 2004. They don't have the competition now that they had when people were scraping their content when they were regurgitating and using algorithms. They've sort of law suited their way out of that problem, they're now, kicking off all the fake profiles, which to me is kind of the second phase of cleaning up the data. To me, LinkedIn is not a job board, and I don't think most people think of it as like, I'm gonna post my job on LinkedIn. What I think LinkedIn is for is when a recruiter gets, Rec saying, hire a salesperson, whereas 20 years ago, the first inclination would be, okay, I gotta post a job on Monster and Career Builder, and where else do I need to post this job? Joel: To me, the the inclination today is either I gotta go to LinkedIn and find a salesperson and reach out to them directly, or if they're smart, I'm gonna go into my current ATS and find someone that I can hire that I've already marketed to and gotten into my system. So to me, there's an evolution of less posting and then getting a response and just kicking out the middleman and going right to the people. And I think LinkedIn has done a better job than anyone. I don't think we would argue on that, of building a directory of professionals, world, globally, that no one can really touch. Certainly no job boards database, resume database. And I'm sure some Indeed people would argue with that, but I don't think they could touch it. So for me, instead of posting jobs, you're losing job postings because I don't have to post a job. Joel: I can go right to the people that are in this directory. In terms of Google. I look at Google as... So first of all, I don't think Google is gonna get out of the job posting business. They're just launching in Germany. They seem pretty serious about this. This doesn't seem like a Google based thing to me. This doesn't seem like a hire where, oh, too much regulation. We don't wanna deal with lawsuits and whatever. Like, we're getting the hell out of it. So I don't think the business is going anywhere because they're growing it. And to me, we've seen this movie before Indeed comes along, it's free traffic, isn't this wonderful? We don't pay anything. People pay us. We get all this free traffic. It's amazing. And then what happened? They turned the spigot and they started charging for it. Joel: Okay, damn. Okay, well we gotta pay this tax, but it's still less than what our clients are paying us for, flat fee posting, monthly postings or whatever. Well, that price started, the screws starting to tighten the algorithm started pushing out job boards and highlighting more direct employers, money that would've gone to Monster now starts going to Indeed. So my perspective is the same thing is happening. And the fact that Indeed is sort of acquiesced and they're now on Google for Jobs, tells me that Google for Jobs is making an impact on their business. [laughter] Joel: As well as other things that I talked about. So for me, it's simply, employers have X amount of dollars. Where do they go? Once they realize and agencies realize we can go right to Google and pay them instead of paying Indeed to then pay Google. Let's take out the middleman, which is Indeed and every other job board, and we'll give money directly to Google. I'm not saying that they're gonna stop paying money to job boards totally, but it's gonna take a piece out of the pie. We don't know how big of a piece that's going to be. And we don't even know, honestly, if Google's going to do a pay-per-click solution, Chad and I think are both on the side of yes, they will eventually start making money off of this service. Joel: You may disagree, but to me it's like, we've seen this move before. Yes, everyone thinks it's great. All the free traffic is amazing. I love it. I'm SEOing this stuff, it's great. But at some point, when you are renting land, eventually the land holder wants to get paid and Google is going to get paid at some point. So those would be my two points on LinkedIn and Google and why they're sort of taking chunks out of the job board business. The ultimate comment on this is job boards just aren't growing. Chad: So, Google I think is definitely refocused, you talking about all the other products before Jeff. And I think that they're doing what they do, which is search, right? And again, back to what Joel was saying, isn't this how Indeed took out the Monster and CareerBuilder titans of old, right? This is exactly what they did. And I've said on the podcast time and time again, I believe that we need to focus more on strategy as opposed to the short-term cash grabs. And that's exactly what we're seeing from job boards today. They're not thinking about long-term strategy. They're not thinking about tech, and being able to, how am I going to be around five years from now? That's not their focus. It's what's coming in this month? Now on the LinkedIn side of the conversation [chuckle] I believe LinkedIn is drowning in tech debt. Intro: They don't, have great tech. They've got great data, they've got a shit ton of great data. Nobody has more data on me than LinkedIn, right? But unless Microsoft implodes the platform and rebuilds it, they're not a real threat to job boards. I don't believe. Putting open AI on LinkedIn would be like strapping a jet engine on a Cessna. It's just not gonna work. So I think these two things don't belong together. Google for Jobs and LinkedIn unless, LinkedIn ups their game. That being said, let's go ahead and jump into horseman number two. Joel: The second horseman is automation. Look, you and I just talked recently about the robots at AWS moving boxes working in the warehouse. Why would you buy stocks that are job postings to hire people when you see images about Amazon replacing everybody with robots that carry boxes, not to mention driverless cars that are eventually going to come. Look, wall Street is a forward-looking indicator and forward-looking. It looks like we're gonna need less people. So why would I invest in these companies? [laughter] Chad: Your thoughts? Jeff: I thought Joel was wrong on the first one. I thought he was dead wrong on that one. That reaction, you could go back hundreds of years over and over again in response to technological innovation. And there will be a Joel standing there saying, when we get this thing and we will not need people in the market anymore. And... Chad: So you're calling Joel a Luddite? You're calling Joel a Luddite? [laughter] Jeff: Joel would be... Yeah, well, I'm not gonna get into what Joel really is, but I think that the... [laughter] Joel: Geez. Jeff: Sort of looking at this... Well, Joel, it's your show I had to come on mean. No, seriously, I think it's crazy to look at any market and say, oh, we're not going to need humans. I think what we're gonna say is that we're gonna need humans in different places. And so let's say that our robotic future is a successful robotic future. The humans will be migrating from putting boxes on shelves to maintaining the robots, to programming the robots, to moving into other positions that don't fit well with robotics or fit well with non-human comprehension. And we are in one of those phases right now, actually, we're always in one of those phases. It had been for the last a hundred years because of the rate of change of technology where there's always a percentage of the labor force that's been thrown out. Jeff: And they're trying to figure out how to get back in and getting re-skilled, but no labor force, no, not going to happen. No people, it's not gonna happen. It's just going to show up somewhere else. And maybe that was the point you were trying to make that hey, put the money somewhere else. But you know what job boards, their job is to connect the employers and the candidates, and they don't care who the employers are. They simply want to make sure that the employers and the candidates find each other. So that equation doesn't change. Joel: Okay. Wall Street typically wants to bet on where the puck is going and with some degree of certainty, what we do know is that we're gonna lose jobs to automation. MIT reported a 400,000 job loss in the US alone and you can go Google, whatever studies you want. But there's more of a certainty that automation will take jobs. The uncertainty is will we create more jobs in response to a new technology? Historically, we have. Historically, when a car is made, there are more jobs created. Jobs change and jobs are lost, but they're gained elsewhere. It's uncertain how much automation will create new jobs. You don't know that. I don't know that Chad doesn't know that. The greater certainty is that more automated tools, robots, whatever you wanna call them, will take more jobs. The local McDonald's in my neighborhood used to have four people behind the cash register taking orders. Joel: Now there are four kiosks and the food comes out with your number on the thing. And we talk every week almost about new technology with ordering food and making cars. And obviously the Amazon example of robots moving boxes. So if I'm an investor, do I wanna invest in something that I think there'll be more jobs posted, there'll be more activity around putting jobs up. Right now, I'd say if I'm an investor, I'm betting on there's less jobs than there are in the future. So my better bet investing wise would be fewer jobs, which is why I would not put my money into a job board, because job boards grow when the economy grows and we hire more people. So that's where I think automation and, when we talk about minimum wage raising, when we talk about California, New York, that's all great things. And we talked to Kevin Wheeler recently who talked about, look, they're on a five-year parole because they have about five years to make more money than they've ever made. Until all the companies streamline processes, put automation into these jobs, and they're all outta work. His word's not mine. But the risk is there. So I'm not putting my money into something like a job board where they grow when there's more jobs to be filled, because I think more robots are gonna be filling those positions. Chad: Yeah. I think what Jeff is talking about is a migration of jobs. So let's say for instance, Amazon warehouse jobs, which you talked about, yes. They're gonna go away and thank fucking God. Those are horrible jobs. Nobody wants to be forced to work on a line pissing in goddamn garbage cans. So just because those jobs will fade away does not mean the totality of the workforce equation will be less. Amazon warehouse jobs, good riddance, the migration, which again, job boards will be popping up all over the place for these new jobs. If you take a look at like, anything that is Cyber, when Cyber was big, they just, job boards popped up all over the place. You're going to see a moving migration of need in new job boards that are placed, or new products that are actually created, which we've seen with LinkedIn and Indeed and all the big job boards with regard to Gig and whatnot. Indeed, just talking about their "new tech network" right? So there's a migration and there's a re-centering, let's say, of where the need is. So this is more, I think, migration than it is, people not doing the job. Joel: And if you could tell me these are the jobs that people are gonna fill that they're losing, then I would buy it. But I don't think we know what those jobs are and... Chad: That's not the point. That's not the point. Joel: I don't think you can just take a warehouse's worker and make them into a cybersecurity expert's point. Chad: That's not the point. Joel: Not everyone can do that. And we don't know to what degree it will fill. Is it a 100% to 100%? Is it 50% of the jobs that are lost will be filled? We just don't know. So again, if I'm an investor, I want to go where I know there's more certainty, there's more certainty around less jobs, more robots than there are more jobs, more robots. Chad: Yes. But the point is that there will always be job boards to be able to fill the need of whatever that workforce is. So therefore, it's migration. Jeff: Part of what I do, I'm at like the front line of the change because the people that are creating the new job boards that are reacting to the changes in the market, come to me and talk to me. And so I just got finished working with a job board that focuses on EV technicians. All the people that deal with EVs and they're at the cutting edge of these things. And that's been happening over and over and over again for the last 14 years. And I can tell you that it keeps moving and sometimes it moves forward and falls back. I mean, look at Dollar General, yank and Walmart yanking all those self-check lines because the loss was so bad. And the humans do a better job of checking people out than the damn machines do. So forward progress through automation is not a straight line. It goes forward, it goes backwards, and sometimes it hits a dead end. And you're right, it's very, very hard to predict. But I can guarantee you that every time there's significant change that gets embedded in the economy, there's gonna be more jobs that surround whatever that change is and will be filling other holes in the economy. Chad: Go one step forward, two steps back, and that leads us to play horseman number three. Joel: The third horseman of the apocalypse is AI. Again, if I'm looking at Elon Musk doing an interview with the Prime Minister of Britain saying that we won't even have jobs in the future. Chad: Universal high income. Joel: So why would I invest in companies if there's no growth prospects for people or even having jobs in the future, and... Chad: Jeff, is AI going to take some of those jobs? Jeff: It's inevitable that AI will take some jobs out there, but I mean, the real issue is what does it do to the job board industry? And one of the things that I've said many times, I think you guys know this is my point of view, is that job boards are sort of the great amoeba of the recruitment industry. Things happen. The job boards approach the thing that happens, they swallow it and they use it, and it's happened over and over and over again. They did it with social media. They've done it with various types of techniques like performance-based marketing, and they're already doing it with AI sort of integrating it into sort of the base functionality of what they're doing, which is bringing candidates and employers together. And is it gonna eliminate job boards? Maybe in some areas, in some places. I mean, certainly some people are placing bets on that. But in terms of really sort of wiping out a $20 billion a year business? No, it's not gonna happen. I actually think it's gonna spur growth. And based on what I've seen so far, I'm pretty positive that we will see a lot of positive changes in job board technology over the next five years or so because of AI. Joel: Swallow is not spits just to be clear, the job boards are swallowing the AI not spitting it out. So AI to me is sort of the flip side of automation. Automation I think is gonna kick the working class in the you know what. And I think AI is going to be a wake up call to the knowledge workers. And we've seen really early iterations around creative writing jobs on gig economy platforms where they're getting paid much less than they were before and there are a lot fewer of them. So a lot of the white collar knowledge based jobs that we know and love many of us will be replaced by a lot of things that AI is doing. And if you need fewer creative writers there'll be fewer jobs posted for creative writing jobs because AI can do it and I think particularly when you see solutions AI salespeople, AI customer service people. And you know Chad and I talked about a company in India that fired 90% of their people and replaced them with AI. Joel: That's going to happen. If you're a startup and you can buy a solution that will cold call sound like a human being and call through a bunch of numbers. Why would you hire a salesperson to cold call people to generate leads? And companies like Apple and Tesla are already doing this, where they retarget you. If you go to their site and fill out a form, you get a call from, it kind of sounds like a person that's only gonna get better telling you about Tesla or Apple products. And that is gonna replace sales jobs and customer service jobs. And if those jobs are replaced, you need fewer job posting platforms and things to post your job on, which means less revenue for these job sites in the future. I agree with you that they'll plug in AI, they'll be better around, hey, do a job description in seconds that's already being done by the likes of Indeed and Paradox. Joel: Write a rejection letter automatically, like do these sort of belts and suspenders, things blocking and tackling, if you will, of recruiting. Those jobs will be augmented and improved. And I think the technology around job sites will improve. I just think there are gonna be fewer people doing a lot of these jobs, which means there are fewer job postings, which is inevitably how that money is made. Now, if they wanna start making money on, hey we got this new thing that will write jobs for you, or will write... They can add money on new services to streamline the recruiting process, like that's an opportunity I think that they will do and should do. But I just think at the end of the day when people like Elon Musk say, there's not gonna be any jobs at all. You think I'm crazy? You think I'm crazy? No jobs at all. Okay. So when you hear that and you're an investor, why would you invest in a job board if there are gonna be no fricking jobs in the future? Says Elon Musk, who is smarter than me. Chad: So, yeah, well, let's talk about that soundbite. Anyone listening to Elon Musk who took a $44 billion company and thus far has lost 25 billion doesn't understand that Elon is good with engineering, rockets and EVs, not with people. And this is an people industry. So looking at Elon and thinking that he knows everything in the fucking universe, come the fuck on. Unlike the Amazon example, tech will take tasks, we've talked about this, not jobs. Jobs are going to be more co-piloted. And then we've also seen where some companies and Joel mentioned the one that's had 90% of their customer service, they also started putting people back into those jobs. Why? Because the AI was fucking up left and right. We've seen hallucinations, we've seen so much happening. Jeff, you just talked about getting rid of self check-in lines, right? There's going to be this step back and forward. Chad: But for example, the administrivia that recruiters currently have that they have to screw with day by day is going to be taken away with some of those co-pilots. Some of those process methodologies where they will be able to become brand ambassadors and usher in top talent instead of writing job descriptions and pushing electronic paper. Personally, I don't think that many of these jobs, especially short term, I mean, and I'm saying short term in the next 10 years, next decade, are going to be taken by this tech. They're going to be better because of this text. So at the end of the day, I think, I believe that these jobs, unlike Elon Musk, are still gonna be around. They're just gonna be much more fucking tolerable for God's sakes. And that's what I hope for the human race, let's say, that's my two cents. Joel: I love the optimism. Chad: Play horseman number four. Joel: The fourth horseman of the apocalypse is the gig economy. We didn't talk about those stocks. Upwork is over 20% year to date, in its share price. Uber is up almost a 100%, and DoorDash is up 80% year to date. If I'm an investor, I see people have options. I see people can do their own thing. People can gig it as a career. So those four horsemen of the apocalypse, Google and LinkedIn, AI automation and the gig economy spell trouble for ZipRecruiter, Indeed, Glassdoor and others. And I don't see any end to the pain that they are suffering. Chad: What kind of pain Jeff? What kind of pain are we gonna see? Joel: His face says, he kind of agrees with me, his face says he might be on board with this one. He might be into it. Jeff: Dream on. Dream on Joel. Dream on. Joel: Oh Okay. Jeff: No. Okay, so this argument once again has been trotted out since the very first cracking of the egg and the little gigs crawling out of the shell and starting the so-called gig economy. We all know that the gig economy has been around forever, right? There's always been people that have done work on a limited basis for payment. Joel: Never at this scale though. Jeff: Actually when you look at the percentages of people that are doing that kind of work, and you go back in history, it's not a lot different. I had a grandfather that was a union electrician, worked for a lineman. And then the second half of his life, he worked as a garage mechanic. He was a gig worker, right? There's always been a large percentage of the market that wasn't looked at Wall Street but was there. And now I'm not saying that there's not more opportunity now because of the internet remote work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm just saying that that's always been a large segment of the labor market. Now, to say that everyone can sort of get on a gig and wander off to Nirvana is ridiculous. Joel: And I don't think I said that. Jeff: You're implying that the gig economy has the potential to sort of disrupt the job board industry. The disruptions already happened. I mean, Upwork is a job board. Fiverr is a job board. They have taken their places, some of the job boards have actually made modifications to their platform. LinkedIn made a sort of a half-hearted attempt to get involved in this at one point. And Indeed did too. It's a type of work and it's a type of job board. It's doing very, very well right now for a lot of different reasons. But it's not the answer for everyone. Just like AI is not the answer for every industry that's out there. And I guess I look at this stuff holistically and I say, yeah, there's been a change in the market. Jeff: You look at it from a Wall Street perspective, they're always chasing the latest, shiny, bright thing that they think is gonna make them money. And their horizon is about four weeks. I used to work for a public company. I remember how it changed from, we were looking at three year horizons to suddenly we're looking at quarterly horizons. It totally screws with the way the company works. All I'll say about Elon is I'm hardly on Twitter anymore, and I used to be on Twitter all the time because it sucks. And he did that in the course of 12 months. I don't know how anyone can destroy an ecosystem as quickly as he did, but he did. And he'll never get it back. He's not in authority on that. Chad: We'll just agree to disagree on that Gigs in the way that they are today have been around forever. I mean, yes, they have, but we're talking about estimates that I see is 35% of Americans, or 59 million, some workers have gigged to some degree. And that was not the case before the internet. I mean, so I don't think it's... I just don't agree that there's always been gigs. And this has been the way it's been forever. I think it's a totally different animal than it was now. I was curious about, 'cause I knew you were gonna bring up Upwork as a job board. And I can't... Look, I say it's not, you say it is. So, I wanted to ask, Chad knows I loved a good LinkedIn poll. So I put out there on LinkedIn, I said is Upwork a job board? Joel: So 125 people replied, 62% said, no, it's not a job board. 38% said that it was. The flip side of that is that Fiverr is down 24% for the year. So you can look at Upwork, but you can also look at Fiverr one's obviously a much better run business than the other. But I just simply... My simple thesis is that if more people are gigging, they're not going to job boards to look for work. They're doing their own thing. They're going to a platform, they're going to Uber, DoorDash, Instacart, whatever. They're bypassing the whole process altogether. And if they're doing that, that means less jobs on job boards, which again, is how job boards grow and make money. And that's what their purpose is. So pull together, all of these four things take chunks out of the business. I don't think I ever said this is the end, or this one thing is going to replace job boards. Joel: Job boards will be around forever and they'll be good businesses for people. They're just not growth businesses. They're not spitting out dividends like a established company that has more cash than they know what to do with. They're just kind of there serving their purpose. And I think they're very challenged as we've talked about. But in terms of the gig economy, it's simply fewer people are going to job sites to look for jobs. They're going directly to whatever gig platform that they want, multiple gig platforms, and that's how they're searching for a job. Now, if your argument is Upwork is a job board, then my argument is a bit tougher. So I wanted to put some data on a survey that's non-scientific whatsoever. But there are people in the industry that do follow on LinkedIn and reply to this stuff. So the numbers I do have say that it's not a job board. It's separate from the traditional post and get responses and whatnot. Chad: Do you post a job on Upwork or Fiverr? Joel: You can post it, you can post a job, but the... Chad: You can post a job. Joel: Yes, you can. Chad: Okay. But yeah. But here's the question on monster, traditional monster back in the day and even today. Could you go and look for people in the resume database? Joel: Yep. Chad: Answer's yes. Could you post a job? Answer is yes, it's the same goddamn thing. Joel: So is monster a gig platform? Chad: If they were posting gigs, yes. Joel: We can agree to disagree. My numbers from LinkedIn support the fact that 60... Chad: Here's not bullshit numbers. Gallup gig economy research suggests that 29% of US workers have an alternative work arrangement as a primary job, 29%. That to me, is big. Now, whether you believe that gigs have always been that big or not, we weren't able to record that over history like we can today. 'cause there were so many people that were paid under the table for doing gigs, right? Today we have a couple of mechanisms. I do agree with Joel that we'll be able to scale gigs much faster, right? Much faster. The rise of the gig economy is necessary because the lower third of the US population is not making a living wage. Chad: So the gig economy only exists because people are doing everything they can to either get out of a dead end job or just making enough money to survive. I guess the question I'm asking you both because this affects the gig industry, but also the job board industry is will the US be forced to start focusing on people in living wages over profits? Because if they do, the gig economy will shrink. If people need to do less gigs because they're actually making a living wage, the gig economy will shrink substantially. So do you think that we will actually start focusing on pushing a living wage versus not because of that? And do you agree with me that gigs will shrink because of wages? Joel: I think your argument is that if I can make more money as an employee, I won't do gigs. I think that a lot of people do gigs for freedom to do whatever they want on their own time. So, I can't blanket say yes or no. I think it's a person to person situation. Some people love jobs. Chad: Do you think the amount of gigs in the market will shrink? Joel: The ultimate pain in America is health benefits. And until the gig economy fixes that, or we've as a country fix that. But I think it's a case by case basis on whether or not someone wants to gig or wants a full-time job with benefits and healthcare and all that good stuff. And certainly minimum wage increases, will pull more people out of the gig economy. They do want that. Chad: Okay. There's the answer. Okay, Jeff? Jeff: Well, I think you were asking the question, what will the country do? What would happen? And sadly, I think it'll do the bare minimum because there's a lot of corporate pushback at all levels. Companies like Uber and companies that are not Uber, that don't necessarily want to see universal healthcare, for example, because universal healthcare would really change the labor market. And if we had universal healthcare in the US even though there's plenty of job boards in countries that have that, the market is different because there's not the penalty that you pay as you move from job to job to job. And I think that that's probably not gonna happen anytime soon. But I do think that depending on what happens in November there could be progress made toward higher wages, and there could be certain segments of the market that get pumped up, that aren't getting pumped up at this point in time. Jeff: So I mean, I don't see a big change. I see gradual change. And Joel, this is just sort of a side thing that maybe you don't realize because you're not sitting where I sit, but a lot of my job board clients that are reasonably sized they are 20, 30, 40$ million are getting a lot of money from gig companies to post their jobs. A lot of those jobs roll through the job board economy. And that's been true from the very beginning. And why is that the case? Because those gig companies still need to acquire scarce labor. In your wonderful world, there's gonna be more people than jobs. Right now that's not the case. And given our birth rate and the way things are going, I don't think it's gonna be the case anytime between before any of us die. I think there's gonna be scarce labor for the jobs that are out there. Chad: Well, Jeff, thanks for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. Joel: The doctor is in the house. Chad: Great discussion. Great arguments, great disagreements, that's what this is all about. I really appreciate you bringing those on the show, Joel, thanks for being a good host all the way around. Thanks a lot guys. Really appreciate it. And until next time, we out. Joel: I need a beer. We out. [laughter] Jeff: Thanks. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Another year, another podcast full of predictions that (mostly) won't come true. Yup, it's finally 2024 and the boys have sobered up enough to give their best guesses for what will happen over the next 12 mos. And if you already long for 2023, never fear, we also review last year's hits and (mostly, again) misses. Plus, we reflect on 2023's podcast takeaways, our fantasy football champion is crowned, and travel heats up again. And what the hell is Dry January? PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who can't even spell dry January. Hey kids, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel the prophet Cheeseman. Chad: I'm Chad. Who said dry January is a thing, Sowash? Joel: And on this week's episode, we're pulling out the crystal ball and looking into what 2024 has in store, or probably not so much if history is any guide. Let's do this. What's up, man. Chad: Hello. I'm finally back in my second abode in Cabana. So I'm not on Madeira anymore. And next week I'm gonna be back in the USA. So yeah. Joel: And I think I speak for all of Facebook when I say we're not gonna miss any of your beach fronts adult mischief making photos that we had to endure for the last couple of weeks. Chad: Oh, I do it for you. I do it for you all. Joel: You do it for me. Chad: You gotta live through me or take examples or whatever. It's all good. Joel: Peepers and I had to power through to make it to midnight on New Year's Eve, but we did it. [laughter] Chad: Dude. I was, okay, the island of Madeira, it's like off the coast of Africa, but it's a Portuguese island and they have the best fireworks in all of Europe. The entire island is lit up and it's crazy. We were out on a boat, which was literally a replica of the Santa Maria. So we're like on a pirate ship, and it has nothing, but it's an open bar, snacks and booze. And we sat there and shit we were probably out till 3:00, but I mean, we were watching just this island get lit the fuck up. It was amazing. Joel: What was the drink of choice? Was it sangria? [laughter] Joel: Or was it beer? It looked like some nudist, male swingers thing that I saw. Chad: What the fuck are you talking about. [laughter] Joel: Anyway, a lot of people listening don't even follow you on Facebook, but it was wild. Chad: The drink of Madeira is Poncha and it's this very, it's fruit and it's rum that's pretty much it. It's fruit, and it's rum. And yeah, you you can get knocked out pretty quick on that shit. So we were heavy into the Poncha. That's for fucking true. Joel: Shit. Yep. That sounds about right. Well, you ready to get back to work? You're ready to focus and get back to America and embrace work, the work ethic, the puritan work ethic and get back? [laughter] Chad: What? Joel: I gotta say, I enjoyed, people listening, Chad and I take at least a week, I don't hear from him. He doesn't hear from me and it's a great sort of relaxing time for me, 'cause Chad's a bit of a pusher. He's a bit of a go like, do this shit, or let's get this thing going, or what. So it was nice to kind of relax. But I feel pretty rejuvenated. I'm ready to hit the ground running. Chad: I definitely feel rejuvenated. Joel: A lot of stuff going on. Starting with travel. Chad: Yes. We've got travel happening in late January. We're going to San Diego for TA week, the 29th of January that week. And we're gonna be at Mission Bay Resort, hanging with koalas at the San Diego Zoo with our friends from KoalaFi. Get it with the Q and the I. Koalafi? Joel: Yeah. I do. SFX: Winning! Chad: We're gonna be in their booth doing some interviews, we currently have eight events scheduled for 2024 already. Fuck! So come and see us at any and all of them. Go to chadcheese.com/events register and come get drunk with us. Joel: I do have a quick travel, a quick a Canadian travel. Chad: Oh, shit. No, you did the Canadian thing, didn't you? You did the hockey thing? Joel: We're doing that. So we're headed to Montreal next weekend. Chad: Oh, nice. Joel: If you're in Montreal, which it has a nice, vibrant, employment related community. Yeah, come out and say hi. Maybe we'll have a beer but meeting up with the hiring branch folks watching a Canadians hockey game, against the Oilers. Connor McDavid hopefully won't be injured and having a good time. So I will be representing the podcast solo in beautiful Montreal, which I've never been, but I hear it's a beautiful city. Chad: Yeah. One thing I'm not doing is going north for the winter. That's just not something I do. I don't do that. I find a sandy beach where it's nice and warm, so you enjoy that. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Well, it's almost as good as getting free stuff, but not quite as good. So we had a nice little holiday giveaway. If you haven't signed up yet, kids, you gotta go to chadcheese.com. Click the free link. We're talking Textkernel, giving away whiskey, Aspen Tech Labs, giving away beer. Of course, we got t-shirts from our friends at JobGet. And if it's your birthday, you might win a nice bottle of rum from our friends at Plum. But last month's winners, our bourbon winner was Alan Bourne. Not related to Jason Bourne, as far as I know, our beer winner was Morgan Michels. And Kelly Herivnek was our birthday winner. Chad: Nice. Joel: And I think if I hear birthday, that that usually means that we play this one. I'm little slow on the trigger, man. It's been a couple weeks. [video playback] SFX: Do you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Chad: That's what dry January does to you. Joel: Yeah. The brain is off for sure. All right. Celebrating another trip around the Sun and our listeners, Mira McDonald, Zachary Larsson, Cheryl Ford, Rob Arant, Mark Katz, Peter Brooks, Mark Becker, Mark Fogle, Keith Sedlik, William Nolan, Steve Brown, Lou Adler, Athena Carp, Peter Zalman and Lauren Sharp. One of our favorite Aussies, if not our favorite Aussie is celebrating another birthday. SFX: Happy Birthday! Chad: Who's Who? Joel: Hopefully they're not celebrating dry January on their birthday have a drink for us if anything else. Chad: Yeah. If they're smart, they're not. I wanna jump into really quick and talk a little bit about what we did in 2023 kind of like in retrospect and then move forward a little bit. What stuck out to you in what we've done over the last year or so with the Chad and Cheese? Joel: Well, aside from not killing each other after six years together. Chad: Always big. Always big. Joel: I figured 10. 10 is the breaking point where we finally walk off the stage but the travel stands out for sure. It's been so fun watching the RecFest, The Unleash crew grow, come to America, continuing to meet friends, new people, old faces some of the interviews we did live from a multitude of booze was great. The startups we always love some of the ones that stuck out like Vet, Aaron and others have been fun to watch. Certainly we'll get to it eventually but fantasy football is always a highlight for me, Chad. Always a highlight. Chad: Even though you don't perform well. [laughter] Joel: No, like the rest of my life I did not, not perform well. How about you, what stood out for you in '23? Chad: So I was taking a look at what we did over the year and we did over 60 interviews and we tackled some pretty heavy topics in 2023, who would've ever thought that we would be talking about failing child labor laws. I mean going back to the 1930s and saying, hey look we're just gonna take away all these child labor protection. So we talked to Reid Mackey about that we talked to some other incredibly smart people like Professor Ifeoma Ajunwa and Professor Mona Sloan about AI regulations. Pay transparency still a thing, gonna continue to be a thing. Maria Colacurcio and Anita Lettink. We've been talking about remote work and return to work all year because it's been kinda like this tug of war. We talked to Mary Elkordy about that. Women exiting the workplace Tracy Lovejoy and Shannon Lucas talked to us about that giving us the women's perspective. Turnover contagion with Andrea Derler and Roe versus Wade which has really impacted our lives after the SCOTUS overturn and Dr. T is what we called her but Dr. Tana Session. She was amazing. It was just great to have all of these experts come on the show and again those are just a few of the 60 plus that we have and we came out of the barrel hot in 2024 with our friend of the show, EEOC commissioner Keith Sonderling. I think this is like his third or fourth time on. SFX: Aih papi! Chad: But yeah, it's great stuff and I mean with including our YouTube only content we are over 1200 episodes pod to date. 1200. 1-2-0-0. Fuck! [applause] Joel: I think that deserves an applaud for anyone who's listened to any of those in the last six years that we've been doing it. By the way it's Tana, not Tanor so if you see her. Chad: Oh, Tana. Joel: So if you see her out there make sure that you get that right. Dude, Michigan might win a national title. Chad: Yeah, I don't wanna talk about that. We're done with that. [laughter] Joel: Let's go to fantasy football something that's great. So another season is in the books. Chad: Yes. Joel: I had a lot of fun I think everyone that participated. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: It was an all female Final four which was awesome. I think half the league was female but Dina Perro for Pyros... Chad: Boom. Joel: Is our champion for 2023, her winnings are on the way. I can't wait to see the pictures, she's already promised a good photo session with her winnings. She was followed close matchup jagged little Jill Patterson came in second. Marcy Mall Playground, Michelle Sergeant Slaughter rounded out our Final Four then we got Brent Locey, Joe Berga Dixon, Chad you came in seventh respectably right there in the center not showing off... Chad: Not good. Joel: Not falling behind, Dean Oster at eight and then everyone else sucked didn't even get into like the Constellation stuff. That would be me, Jasper, the European, Dennis last year's Champion, Tupper and then the Cellar we got Kristen Urban and that is just frankly the car crash of fantasy players. Chad: Ridiculous. Joel: We might send Dennis Tupper a little something for going from first to almost worst for this year but that is another season. Hopefully we do it next season. I'm pretty sure our friends at FactoryFix who sponsored this season and the year before are gonna be at least open-minded to doing it again. Chad: They love it. Joel: But that is Fantasy football finale. Chad: And talking about little boats and hoes. I mean YouTube, we launched a YouTube channel in 2023. Joel: We did. Chad: I kinda had to drag you kicking and screaming but at the end of the day it actually worked out pretty damn well and we got to I think Skill Scout to thank for that to make us look all pretty and sound good. [applause] Chad: We had over 30,000 video watchers or downloads, whatever the fuck they call it. Anyway over 30,000 in less than a year. Joel: We don't know the internet. Chad: Yeah, the top five YouTube videos was number five iCIMS CEO abruptly quits. Number four... Joel: Shocker. Chad: $7 Mayo might end democracy, number three Uber takes aim at TaskRabbit, number two StepStone steps in it, and number one will AI take recruiter jobs with Amy Butchko. That was it, that was a great interview as well. SFX: All right, all right, all right. Joel: Oh, Butchko. By the way Chad I'm on my way to being TikTok famous. My Full Service Sucks short, by the way, the shorts are totally surprised. Like people love us in about one minute or less intervals, which I totally understand, but my Full Service Sucks on TikTok is over 4000 views, which I'm pretty, pretty impressed with. I'm well on my way to TikTok fame. So I can finally walk away from this podcast and talk about things that old white men get angry about. I think it may be my calling. [laughter] SFX: 60% of the time it works every time. Joel: Which brings us to reviewing last year's predictions. If you haven't been paying attention, kids, this is our prediction show. If you haven't heard it before, we review our predictions from last year, see where we got it right and where we mostly got it wrong. And then we make new predictions for the new year. So Chad I don't know how you wanna do this. We can do one each. We can do all of yours, all of mine. Chad: Knock all your three out. Yours is going to be fun here. Joel: Okay. My three, my three were super specific. Chad: Yes. Joel: They were rooted in fact, if you don't believe me, go back to the archives, go to chadcheese.com and go to January for that one. So my first one was... My first prediction from last year was that Scott Gutz CEO of Monster would no longer be CEO of Monster. And for that one... Chad: Oooh. Joel: Yeah, I got that one wrong. And although he's still there, it's gotta be the worst job in our industry. Piloting a ghost ship basically in foggy uncharted waters can't be very much fun. Chad: I think the paycheck he's bringing down, he's probably okay with it right now. I think maybe being an AE there or something like that, that probably fucking sucks, but being a guy who's taking down the kind of cash he is, I think he's okay. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I guess he can cry all the way to the bank on that one. Okay. That brings us to my second prediction. Greenhouse IPO. Oh boy. Greenhouse, although they had, I think hired chief financial officer that had extensive experience in going public and had done some other things that I thought was a clear indication. Greenhouse did not go public nor did any company in our space of significance go public. So that one, that brings me at, O for two. Chad: I think we think these companies are smarter than they really are. We look really deep to try to look for their hidden kernels of what might actually to try to put the put these things together. I just don't think they're that smart. Joel: Well you know what I say about predictions, Chad, they aren't wrong, they just haven't happened yet. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel: All right. Let's get to my third prediction from 2023... UKG buys iCIMS. Yeah, that one was rooted in a, I thought some sound logic the CEO that they had hired Brian Provost had experienced selling a company to UKG and I thought what better CEO to sell to UKG than the guy who sold a previous company to UKG. Unfortunately, Brian Provost is gone while Scott Gutz continues to to drive the Monster ship. Chad: Who would have thought that Provost just would eject. I mean, out of just thin air, one day he wakes up, picks up the phone, says I quit. Who would have thought that would have happened? I guess what, again, you never know these crystal balls. Sometimes they work. And most of the times they just don't. Joel: Full disclosure. We have no idea what happened at iCIMS, so we can only project. Chad: That's what happened in my head. He woke up, yeah. Joel: That brings my take at O in three for my predictions from 2023. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: All right, Chad, are you ready? Chad: Yes. Joel: Let's do this. Chad: Oh man. I tell you what pay equity was having its moment in the sun. And I thought automatically there's one company that's out there that I know and I love that they're going to get acquired because they are a system that just makes sense for pay equity, right? They're very transparent. It's technology. It makes it easy. And Syndio did not get acquired. So that was a big, big zero for me. Although, I'm sure they're doing incredibly well still, whether they were acquired or not. Joel: Is it something you think might happen in '24 or are you putting that one off the table? Chad: You know what? I don't think so. And here's why. And I don't think it's a situation where they won't do well. I think they'll continue to do well. I just think that because DEI, pay equity, all of these things are just not cool anymore. AI is kind of taking the stage. CEO saying stupid shit. I mean, we've seen so many CEOs just come out and say the quiet parts out loud over the last couple of years, that has taken the shine off of just about all the things that we cared about, that we should be caring about. And DEI, pay equity, those types of things, unfortunately are just not getting the focus and the time that are deserved. And I feel... Joel: Which is a shame. SFX: Boo! Chad: Yeah. Like 2024 is gonna be just another year of stupid shit from the CEOs, from the C-suite, from the board of directors and unfortunately we're going to be, we're going to be focusing on the drama and not the things that actually matter. Joel: I think you're right. All right. Now let's get to your number two prediction from last year. Chad: So Web3 is alive. My prediction was that some form of blockchain-esque type of organization would actually get out there in our space and it did happen. CV Wallet did come out and I think they're doing well. I think they're doing a lot better than we had actually thought right out of the gate because they didn't focus on blockchain. They focused on process. They focused on really the issues because of all the cons that happened on blockchain and crypto and that kind of shit. And we'll give that a half. What do you think, a half maybe? SFX: All right. All right. All right. Joel: McConaughey approves. We'll go with that one. Yeah. Bitcoin's having a moment here in the new year and ending last year. Ethereum is back. Solana is striking hard. I don't know, crypto might be a hot topic in '24. And your buddy, Sir Richard, might be in for a good year. All right. Let's get to your final prediction from '23. Chad: Google for jobs paid ads. That's right. We've been talking about this for years now, kids. I think since Google for jobs came out in 2017, we've been talking about the paid ads finally happening. We haven't seen them in the wild, but we have seen testing. We've seen screenshots of testing. And therefore, I mean I think we'll probably take it off the board from now on, but... Joel: You think so? Chad: We know that it's in the process. We know that it's happening. Google for jobs paid ads. I'm going to take a win on this one. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: All right. If you're keeping score at home, Cheeseman, 0 in 3, Chad, we'll give him a one won in one. How about that? We'll give a tie to the Bitcoin. Well, let's see if we can do any better in 2024. Don't get your hopes up. We'll be right back. All right. Chad, it's time to make our 2024 predictions. Are you excited? Chad: Oh yeah, dude, I'm stoked. I am stoked. Joel: Okay. In a macro level, I'm really concerned about '24, the world is burning, global conflict, geopolitical uncertainty, we have an election year here in the US, Taiwan, has an election, Germany in recession. It's a really volatile year. I'm really scared to make predictions this year. And I've decided that this year will be my George Costanza strategy for predictions. Now, if you're not a Seinfeld fan, hopefully, there's four characters in Seinfeld and George is kind of the self-deprecating, negative one. And he has an episode where he says, if everything that I do is wrong, then the opposite must be right. Chad: Yes. Joel: If every instinct I know is wrong, then I'm going to do the opposite. So this year, I'm going to go a little George Costanza on you and go the opposite of what I would normally do on our prediction show. So with that, my first prediction is no IPOs. That's right. No IPOs of significance. And I'm not talking about some pink sheet bullshit company. I mean like significance. And we've been talking whether it's more official than others, but iCIMS, Greenhouse, Smart Recruiters, Personio, Deal for sure, HiBob, like some companies are teasing IPOs, their S1s have been like, they've almost got there. They're really close to doing it. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: But this year, I think with so much volatility, I think we were at peak IPO with Birkenstock last year. I think the IPO markets, unless Reddit, Stripe, some of these big tech companies go public and really hit it out of the park, I don't think any of our companies are going to go IPO in 2024. Now, what I hear a lot of these days is "survive till '25". I think this will be a year where we hunker down, survive, get through the elections and everything else. And then '25, you're going to see a flood of some of these companies go IPO. But for me, my first prediction, is that there will be no IPOs in our space in 2024. And that brings us to your first one, unless you have a comment. Chad: Oh, yeah. First, I mean I'd like to say that... It sounds like the year of Cheeseman not taking any big swings, you're just going to bunt and try to get on base. Joel: That's a black or white. No, that's a black or white prediction. Chad: That's a big swing. Joel: That's no gray area. That's no tie. Chad: It's not going to be a big year. We all know that. Joel: Either I'm right or I'm wrong. There's no gray area. Chad: Just because it's black or white does not make it a big swing. That's not a big swing. Joel: I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm really wrong. And we have a lot of cool shit to talk about, including IPOs. But I don't think it's going to happen. Chad: Yeah. We'll still have a lot of cool shit to talk about. But IPOs, probably not. Joel: Oh yeah. I hope it's not all cyber trucks and meta VR systems next year or this year. Chad: All right. Get ready. Yeah. I'm going to go big on this one. I'm going to talk about two acquisitions that are going to happen in 2024. Yes. I understand several clearance rack acquisitions will happen in 2024, but those are not the ones that I want to focus on. I believe there are amazing startups that are new, different and will provide market vendors, big market vendors with a market advantage that they do not have today. Here are two that are near and dear to my heart that I believe could change the TA landscape forever. The first is an early stage startup who I believe can revolutionize the talent acquisition space. And I don't mean by using a large language model. I mean by creating new rails, infrastructure, much like AppCast did, by building the programmatic advertising rails for recruitment marketing agencies and new revenue streams for job boards. Chad: Plus also creating infrastructure to make background checks faster, accreditations and references instantly available and new revenue streams for screening, testing assessments and simulation providers, just for starters. And instead of talking about PPC and PPA, how about we talk about having the data and ability to actually target qualified candidates. The ones who you know have the accreditations, they've already passed the background checks, they passed the assessments, and instead of paying for an apply or a click from a candidate that doesn't meet the requirements, they actually make sense. The only vendor currently in our space that can pull this off, call back to last year, CV Wallet. SFX: That's winning. Chad: Yes. Sir Richard and Queen Beverly, they have tremendous experience in the space, resources, and the network to pull off an acquisition in 2024. Why? Because as we saw, big names like Google, Microsoft, Amazon and many others get leapfrogged by little old OpenAI. The big names in our industry understand their rails, their infrastructure and their brand mean nothing if they're leapfrogged by a competitor who acquires a more evolved infrastructure and revenue models. That's why CV Wallet gets acquired in 2024. Joel: Oh my God. Chad: That's a big swing. Joel: As if Sir Richard and Beverly need another Maserati. Upgrade that garage, as they say in England 'cause you're gonna need a few more... Chad: Success breed success, my friend. Success breed success. So my second, in today's world, we are flooded with generative AI and vendors who are doing their damnedest to try to figure out how to wrap this AI into practical workflow for their users. And for over a decade, vendors have tried to solve the recruiter workspace problem. Hiring companies are using an average of 30 plus different technologies today and recruiters have to have at least that many browser tabs open to use that shit. So it's not just efficient and many great platforms need to be receiving adoption and they can't because they just can't get the users to use their platforms because they're all over the place. Enter Poetry. SFX: Aih papi! Chad: That's right baby. A recruiter enablement platform that wraps all of those problems into an early stage solution. Founders and our friends, Adam Gordon and Mike Hughes are both veterans in the space, they sold candidate ID to iCIMS and they are not looking to create the next platform to rule them all. Oh no. They're creating a workspace that ties all of those platforms and point solutions together. And that was always the answer. Creating a platform to rule them all was never sustainable and never the real world and practical answer, but rather a workspace that ties them together and integrates practical generative AI workflows. That's the answer and that's my friends, is why Poetry gets acquired in 2024. SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, if it's not Scottish, it's crap. Chad: Two European companies. Joel: So we get a two for one. For your first prediction in '24. Acquisitions, two companies, both European, I'm shocked that as the newest European resident that you're picking two European companies to get acquired. Chad: And that literally just came into my mind as I'm talking about. I'm like, holy shit, they're both in Europe. I didn't even think about that as I was thinking about these. Yeah, so it just popped. Joel: Just came into your head. Just came into your head. All right, kids. That brings me to my second prediction for 2024. No new unicorns in 2024. Now Chad, you remember '21 and '22, we had a parade of unicorns, tons of them. Deal, Remote, Oyster, Velocity Global, you name it. There were tons. And this past year we had HiBob, Harry, maybe, was close in that neighborhood, I don't think this year with inflation, I think is still gonna be high. Volatility's still high. I think there's a lot of investors that feel burned by putting in so much money into the workspace. Remote work is still kind of up in the air. I think that investors will be gun shy to invest in our space. I think inflation money won't be cheap, into next year. Volatility around the globe. I just don't think we'll see a billion dollar valuation and a new unicorn in 2024. And again, I hope I'm wrong about that one as well. Chad: Whew. Yeah. Well, I'll have a little to add about that later. Joel: Fair enough. All right. Well, while you think about more European companies to pimp and more European ideas and socialists ideologies to throw at us. Let's take a quick break. And remember, kids, there's no show without the sponsors, so please listen to the ads and write blank checks to these companies. All right, Chad, you've had a little time to think. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Think of new things that are going on. But this brings us to your second prediction for '24. Chad: Prediction for 2024. Twitter hiring dies. Now let me paint a picture. In December, that's where the European part comes in. In December, the European Commission has opened formal proceedings to assess whether Twitter may have breached the Digital Services Act. The investigation includes countering the dissemination of illegal content, combating information manipulation, increasing platform transparency, and examining the user interface design. This provides a huge distraction for an already undisciplined Twitter. Plus, this is happening right when Threads launches in the EU. Moreover, the economics just don't work. Enterprise advertisers are continuing to run away from Twitter, which has resulted in losses around in the billions. Then Elon tells the enterprise advertisers to go fuck yourself. Then just recently, Linda Paper Tiger Ya Carino declared that Twitter would target small to medium sized companies to replace the said enterprise dollars. Chad: Twitter then wrapped their SMB jobs thingy into the basic verified offering, which includes spotlight top roles on your profile. Who the fuck at a small to medium-sized business is going to manage that day-to-day jobs fiasco? Nobody, nobody. Number two, job sync via ATS or XML feed. Who the fuck at an SMB knows what an ATS or XML feed is? No, it's a very, very, again, it's starting to, it's starting, very thin, very thin. Last but not least, unlimited job slots published to your profile and job search at twitter.com/jobs. Who looks SMB profile on Twitter? So you have to go to the actual profile to see this shit. So all of these features, "features" are just smoke and mirrors until Twitter starts pulling jobs into their main feed. Then all fucking hell is going to break loose. Johnny's plumbing and heating, their jobs start popping up by Alex Jones tweets, and then all bets are fucking off, kids. Chad: Plus, here's the final point. Twitter just wrapped those so-called features into an already existing verification product without increasing the price of the product at all, which gives no additional revenue and actually devalues those bullshit features. So how will Twitter pay to increase SMB buyers? Much like ZipRecruiter did, they have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars as Zip demonstrated and that's not sustainable. So here's a recap. EU investigation. Facebook's threads enters into the EU. Enterprise revenues are gone. Twitter devalues its hiring platform, and much like Facebook shutting down its jobs product, remember, Facebook already tried this. Google shutting down its jobs API, and Google hire ATS. Twitter will come to the realization that without enterprise dollars, they will have to spend more money than they can make through this stupid buck and bullshit advertising to try to lure people into an SMB verification scheme. That's why in 2024, the Twitter hiring platform will die. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Just to be clear, x.com/jobs is gone when we ring in '25. Chad: Well, it doesn't exist today. If you type in x.com/jobs, it goes to twitter.com/jobs. So stop calling it X, 'cause it's not X. Twitter hiring platform will be dead. Joel: It will be... So that page won't exist. What do you think about their LinkedIn killer? Are they going to focus and pivot on that? Should LinkedIn be shaking in its boots? Or do you think they'll not do anything with that? Chad: There have been stories already that LinkedIn's revenue is jumping because they're actually getting that, all those companies that are running away from Twitter, some of them are going to LinkedIn. So LinkedIn's already siphoning some of that money off. LinkedIn is going to be in the catbird seat when this shit just drops. Well, here's what's going to happen. You're going to have all this pomp and fucking bullshit circumstance from Twitter saying that hiring's the thing, right? Then when it dies, where are they going to go? LinkedIn's going to pop in. They're going to say, come over here, guys. This is where you need to be. So you're going to get the Indeeds and the LinkedIns and whatnot, the big brands, the bigger brands, who are literally just going to siphon that dollar off. But Twitter hiring platform, that bitch is pretty much dead. Joel: Here's a prediction. Elon will be the GIF that keeps on giving to this podcast in 2024. Chad: Again, just another bunt. Jesus. Joel: All right. This brings me to my final prediction for 2024. And by the way, to piggyback on your acquisition commentary, I don't think there's going to be any big time acquisition. It'll be like Poetry, year old thing, or CV wallet. There won't be any 100 million plus acquisition. Paradox is not getting acquired in '24. Chad: Now, Paradox doesn't want to get acquired. Joel: I just pulled that out of my ass. But there won't be any huge, really newsworthy acquisitions next year. Chad: The ones that are kicking ass and taking names, Deal, Paradox, they don't want to be acquired. They don't want that. They're waiting, right? Joel: If you remember, I think in a previous episode, we talked about Deal and how they've just crushed it. I think they've earmarked $200 million for acquisitions. So these companies that are crushing it, they're going to go shopping and start picking up features and acqui-hires. That'll be hopefully, a news story that we talk about. Chad: Clearance rack in early stage startups. You get those because tech is starting to accelerate. The velocity is so fucking crazy right now. You can get some real cheap companies who really they couldn't execute, or you're going to get some amazing startups that have tech that nobody, I mean, again, this is all about leapfrogging the competition very quickly. Joel: Yep. And I think on the raising side, I think you'll see a lot of startups that are AI driven, that have two people, they'll get the five, 10, $20 million, but no unicorns in that group. All right, let's get back to my prediction. In 2024, there will be a death of a unicorn. I've already said there won't be any new unicorns, but I think we will see the death of a unicorn, someone that had previously had a billion dollar plus valuation, go by the wayside. We've already featured Beamery on previous episodes, which is frankly been a train wreck. They raised 50 something million dollars in December of '22, and then turned around and laid off 15% of their people. Then they laid off 25% of their people here just before the holiday season. I've got my DMs blowing up about my whole department was laid off, like Beamery could be in that group. Oyster is another one that raised a ton of money and has seen a lot of layoffs. I think they're running third, fourth, or fifth fiddle to the likes of Deal and Remote. To your chagrin, Eightfold will not be one of the death. Chad: They took too much money. They've got more runway. Joel: Well, that'll be the thing, but I think they're just good enough to survive, but I think there's gonna be some down here that we say goodbye. Maybe they're an acquisition on the clearance rack or maybe they just shut the doors, some other companies that we talk about. So that is my third prediction that we say goodbye to a unicorn that had previously raised one billion dollars in valuation dollars. Thoughts? Like it, don't like it? Chad: Yeah, no, I like it because the valuations were bloated. We talked about the valuations. A lot of those billion dollar valuations were literally not real world billion dollar valuations. So yeah, I could definitely see that happening, but they're gonna be like the, like you said, Eightfold. Eightfold, they took a lot of money unless they continue to buy fuckin' spaceship booths like at the HR techs and like in every fuckin' conference you know, across the world and they keep adding people, which they're not gonna do. They've got at least runway to be around for a few more years. But beyond that, I think the head shed, right? The actual CEOs or co-CEOs, I think we're gonna start to see heads roll before we start to see unicorns die. Joel: Yep. SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: All right, let's get to your third and final prediction for 2024. Chad: Third prediction for 2024. My last prediction does not have a name ascribed to it, but it is very specific. It's not a bunt. It's not a bunt. A dominant AI player will emerge in the HR and TA space. While everyone is watching ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude and all the other very general platforms fight over the next level of multimodal dominance. We will see a domain specific player in HR and TA, use OpenAI's model. And no, I don't mean Josh Burson's bullshit platform. I mean a real player with access to real data, not something that they conjured up because they were paid to conjure shit up, right? I mean very specifically an AI player that will open its platform up to the public to play with ALA, OpenAI and ChatGPT. They will provide limited, yet free access, and their brand will gain notoriety and will leapfrog many of the bigger brands that are out there in 2024. And this is where I'm gonna kind of counter what you're saying. They will have an opportunity to be a unicorn because the only thing that's making people unicorns in 2024 is AI. And if they adopt that OpenAI platform or process that OpenAI leapfrogged, I think we have some people in the space, if they take the risk that they will be able to do that. Joel: Yeah, well no doubt AI will be the sexy story. SFX: What are you doing, step bro? Joel: Probably all year. The counter to that is like the bubble bursts, AI is a fraud, Dot-com bust 2.0, and we're seeing a different tune. But yeah, I agree that AI will be the story for this year in our space. And there was someone, someone posted predictions that I read. It was that someone will get a significant amount of money invested and the investors will realize that they have no employees and the CEO is a bot. [laughter] So that'll be a fun story if we ever get that. So that is... Chad: Yes. Joel: Our predictions for 2024. To recap, I said no IPOs in our space this year. I said no new unicorns. And I said one unicorn will die in 2024. Yours were? Chad: CV Wallet and Poetry will be acquired, two early stage startups. Twitter hiring will die on the vine. And last but not least, we will see a domain AI player, obviously in our space, adopt the open AI business model and they will just fucking kill it. They will leapfrog a lot of the bigger brands in our space in 2024. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Chad: Usually not 60% of the time. Where I don't think we've got a 60%. Joel: You have a global prediction to kind of end the show. We got elections, we got sports obviously going down. Any predictions on a macro level that you want to end the show with? Chad: Yeah, I don't want to think of macro stuff at this point because there's so much dystopian things that are happening around us. I'm trying to keep it light at the first of the year, especially with this year being a big, big presidential election in the US. And again, everybody's watching. Everybody's trying to see just how fucking crazy the Americans are and we're gonna let them know at the latter part of this year. But the hardest part about this is the ride we're going to have to take from now. And I'm sorry guys, it's gonna get a little dark. The ride that we have to take starting now all the way to November, this is gonna be a dark year when it comes to news and it comes to social media. I'm probably going to have to detox several times this year. [chuckle] Joel: Well, that being said, I'm gonna give you a sunshiny ironclad prediction for 2024. Chad: Please. Joel: The Cleveland Browns win the Super Bowl. The Cleveland Browns. SFX: Winning. Joel: Win the Super Bowl. Chad: Joel Flacco. I was like, what the fuck? Joel: Flack around and find out everybody. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the chat and chase podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

News has been slow since the holidays, but things are getting back to normal. Most notably, Indeed and LinkedIn are still doing stupid stuff, and we're happy to oblige with some razor-sharp commentary. They're the gift that keeps on giving. Additionally, DJ Sol at Goldman Sachs has finally figured out and fixed racism ... hallelujah! OK, not really, but you decide. Plus, it's a Who'd Ya' Rather, pitting PerformYard against Mercor (call it the 2 a.m. edition, because neither choice is all that appealing). How can it get even better, you ask? Can we interest you in Pornhub's annual report on global porn consumption? Spoiler alert: It's a lot to swallow. Talking about the data! There are some real sickos out there. Wait, did I mention our bulging Spotify metrics? Like, Share, Subscribe and Review! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Intro (podcast Introduction): Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who will never get a ticket to Davos. What's up, kids? You are listening to the Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel DJ Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad, it's fucking cold in here, Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, Indeed, Goldman Sachs, LinkedIn, and PornHub. One of these things is not like the other. Let's do this. [laughter] SFX (sound Effects): Emotional damage. Chad: So, talking about cold, how was Canada? You went to Canada. You did the Canadian hockey thing. Joel: Canada's great. Quick shout-out to the hiring branch folks, Stefan, Kevin, Beth, very hospitable as you would imagine Canadians to be. Took us to the Canadiens game. Very passionate about that sport. There they are in the north. Edmonton was in town. The Oilers have Connor McDavid, arguably the best player there. They booed every time he got the puck. Chad: Boo! You suck! Joel: Yeah, it was good. It was good old-fashioned fun. My wife, who's from Canada, as most of our listeners know, loves the snow. She got a little bit of snow. She got cold weather. The one negative, I would say, would the train ride from basically London to Montreal. Sounds really romantic. It's sitting on a tough seat for many, many, many hours. Imagine the worst seat you've had on an airplane and do that for like eight hours plus. Chad: Really? Huh. Joel: It's a little rough. They promoted free drinks, but they limit it to like one an hour. The train engine had issues. We had to sit at a station for like three hours until they got the next train. Chad: Fuck. Joel: So the romantic trip wasn't romantic because it was dark the whole time. We were going from Toronto basically to Montreal, but never been to Montreal. It's a very nice city. A cool mix of old-time vibey, Frenchy stuff and kind of newer things. Good food there. All around good trip. And when I came home, it was colder here in the Midwest than it was in Canada, although cold on both fronts. Chad: I saw actually Stephen O'Donnell in Scotland bitching about how cold it was. Not even close to as cold as it is here. So it's like Scotland is warmer than it is here in Indiana. But I do have something. I'm gonna make you jealous. Are you ready? Joel: You got Taco Bell for lunch. Chad: No. Joel: Okay. Chad: Guess what I'm doing this weekend? Fully immersive VR experience called Sandbox. So we have one here in Indianapolis. Five of us are going and we're playing a game called Deadwood Valley, where you're a military team that's dropped into a town in the middle of nowhere that is infested with zombies and it's your job to clear it out. So saw this. We did some really cool things. I think I told you about the game that we did in London with the guys from Talent Nexus. That was the Squid Games. They've got that here too. But again, that wasn't fully immersive. This is fully immersive. So pretty stoked to go try that out. Joel: How is it more fully immersive with this VR versus the Squid Game VR? Chad: This is VR here in Indianapolis. What we did in London was, it was a room that literally had projections on the wall. So that's the big difference. So when you've got the screen on your face, they can project all this stuff like scary ass zombies and shit like that. And it's like you're there versus being in a room with just seeing projected wall stuff. Now, the projected wall stuff was really cool, but I'm really stoked to do this immersive VR experience this weekend. Joel: Yeah. They had one of these near me a few years ago, like pre-pandemic. I'm sure the pandemic put them out of business, but it was basically like a bunch of cubicles and people with headsets on, like you said, fighting zombies, shooting cowboys. And like one was a car. You were like racing through Montenegro or something. And my wife and her sister did it and they wanted to throw up after doing it. So hopefully you don't have the same reaction. Kids were fine. Kids don't have an issue. But I guess the older folks, the older folks aren't quite attuned to the things that the young kids like. But yeah, that sounds a lot of fun. Get really drunk, I guess, would be my advice. And then really soak it all in, I guess, is what you should do. Chad: Okay. I'll do it. Joel: By the way, shout out to our friend Evan, sent me a Taco Bell gift card just because I think I did something nice. He is like the PR guy. Anything you do nice for him, he sends you something. So get to know Evan if you like free shit. Chad: There's gonna be a video, unboxing video of something that Evan sent me. So you'll see, it's a little bit better than the Taco Bell. Joel: A little bit better. I have hard time, hard time thinking about that. Let's get to shout-out, shall we? Chad: Yes. Joel: My first one is, you know, we get asked all the time, what's the best ATS? What's the best chat bot? What's the best this or that? And sometimes you just got to look at look at some review sites out there. G2 is probably one of the more well-known legitimate, I guess I would say, resources out there for reviews. Anyway, they've they've dropped their Winter 2024 Best ATS's out there. And I just want to read those out for you. So the best for small business, they give to Zoho Recruit. The best for mid market, Greenhouse. I can buy that. Best for enterprise, Greenhouse. That's two for Greenhouse if you're keeping score at home. Best by G2 user satisfaction is 100Hires, which I've never heard of. I don't know if you have or not. Chad: No, no. No. Joel: Yeah. Okay. So we'll... Whatever. Best ease of use goes to Vultus Recruit, another one I have not heard of. Do you know Vultus? Chad: No. Joel: No. Okay. And the best free goes to Zoho. So if we're keeping at home, Zoho and Greenhouse are ones that we know and can at least say that it exists. And we know some people there. Vultus and 100Hires, no clue. If you're using it, love it, let us know. If not, we would say tread carefully if you're going to use those services. Chad: I'd say if you were probably talking to the Daniel, the CEO of Greenhouse, and he would say that they're not an enterprise applicant tracking system. G2, I think it's interesting, they do reviews for everything, but they know much about nothing. Joel: Yeah it's all reviewer. There's not a curated expert list the people to go in. So, yes, the system could be gamed probably pretty easily. Chad: Yes. Joel: So, yeah, use with caution. But I thought, you know, we get asked a lot, what are the best ATS's? This is what G2 says are the best ATS's. Chad: And those aren't it, other than maybe Greenhouse for, you know, small. Shout out to listeners and guests. So our Spotify rap numbers came out for 2023 and our listeners grew by 25%. Streams grew by 48% and our followers grew by 46%. So, thanks. Thanks to all guests who graced us with their voices, their experience and all of our listeners who gave us a hard time on a weekly basis. They gave us bourbon and also a lot of love and kudos. So thanks all because the industry needs to have some of these hard discussions that we have. And a lot of times we're the only ones that are having them. Thanks for listening. Thanks for connecting. Chad: Not to mention, I got to say, just last week we received messages from Bulgaria in Dubai and Shane from Dubai knows exactly how to get Cheese excited as he pitched us coming to Dubai for a McDonald's grand Big Mac, which is basically a Big Mac with quarter pounder patties. So if you're watching us on YouTube, you can probably start to see Joel is drooling right about now. Joel: So these are just Spotify numbers, right? They don't calculate from everything. Chad: No, Spotify. Joel: So that was... Yeah, I was pretty impressed. Spotify is kind of a hipper thing. I'm going to tell my kids that we have increased Spotify numbers and see if they actually finally think that I'm cool. But that's probably a long shot. By the way, thanks for everyone who commented and liked Chad's share of this image. He needs affirmation. He wasn't hugged a lot as a child. So everyone coming out and loving the things that he shares helps all of us. Chad: Nothing wrong with hugs, Cheeseman. Joel: Nothing wrong with hugs and nothing wrong, my second shout-out, to booze being delivered to your front door. And as our listeners know... Chad: My favorite. Joel: And many of the listeners that have signed up for free shit, which we'll get to in a second, know that Drizly, Drizly has been a trusted partner of ours. Chad: Yes, they have. Joel: When I say partner, I mean, we give them money and then they do the service. Chad: They do stuff. Joel: That they were paid to do. But Drizly was early on probably the only one other than like a mail service that would deliver booze within, you know, a few hours if you... Chad: Great service, too. Joel: Wanted to do that. They started in 2012. They grew organically. A couple of guys in Boston, I think, said, hey, why can't I get my beer delivered? And they're like, oh, let's create a business around this. So they did that. Chad: There we go. Joel: They're bought by Uber in '19, I think, for one point whatever billion dollars. So these guys cashed out on a great idea. Now, as many of you know, Uber Eats is a service that delivers just about everything. Instacart, DoorDash, even Total Wine here. A couple of some of the people in the US know about Total Wine, they deliver, which they use DoorDash basically when you buy from them. But anyway, the news out this week and I was originally crushed because we had a report about Bird scooters filing for bankruptcy. Joel: Drizly is getting shut down. Now, on the surface, that sounds horrible. What kind of life do we live? What kind of world do we live in if scooters and and booze at your doorstep are gone? So they're shutting the brand down, but they're going to wrap it into Uber and Uber will be delivering everything from groceries to picking you up to whatever. So it's it's not dead per se. But if you love the Drizly Grizzly, you know, I love the branding, the red. It's just great. They were actually at... Actually they were at SHRM National this year. There was a booth for Drizly. Joel: They gave me some swag. I felt a real bond with this product and now it's gone. So in that sense, it's kind of a bad news. But never fear, kids, Chad & Cheese will still be able to deliver booze to your doorstep, but you got to sign up. You got to sign up. And let's just jump right to it before your next shout-out, Chad. Go to chadcheese.com. Click the free link. Sign up. We're talking about beer from Aspen Tech Labs, a bourbon selection for both Chad and I from Textkernel and, of course, free T-shirts from our friends at JobGet, which, by the way, we're formulating our new shirts for the next year. So make sure you get that new shirt. You got to go to chadcheese.com. Click the free link for that for that good stuff that we deliver. Chad: My next shout-out, my last shout-out is going to go to the Pie2Pie podcast. Yes, I actually said that, Pie2Pie podcast. You thought we had a good name, Cheeseman. And here's why. I'm going to go ahead and share this video. Here we go. Pie2Pie Podcast: Everybody in our pizzeria makes at least 50 or $60,000 a year. And, you know, and the leadership makes close to $100,000 a year. That's what it costs to have people that are good at their job and care about it. And the reason that people don't care about their job out there in the world is because they get treated like we don't care about them. And if you don't care about your employees, what do you expect? You know what I'm saying? Like slavery is over, people. It's time to treat people well and care about them. Unfortunately, for the people that get to keep whatever's left at the end of the month, that means you've got to pay them well. You know, it would be really nice if I could just make lots of money and not care. Joel: Pizzeria, 50, 60K a year. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Did I hear that right? Chad: Yeah. But did you see what he did there, though? He equated money, paying someone a living wage, to caring about your employees. Not a high five or a pat on the back, money, money. Now, don't get me wrong. Motivating employees is important, but it's fucking hard to motivate someone who is more worried about, you know, how they're gonna, I don't know, fucking pay the next house payment, car payment, feed the kids. So if you care about your employees, pay your employees. We talked about last week on a shout-out how an HR professional said a high five or a pat on the back is just as good as a raise. That's bullshit, kids, pay them, pay them, pay them. Joel: That must be some fucking good pizza if they can give wages like that. And I was transfixed by the logo. It was the LA like Dodgers logo. And the A was a piece like a slice of pizza. That's genius. Chad: That's pretty sweet. Joel: And why the Dodgers haven't killed that, I don't know why. But yeah, good on that. Good on that. Chad: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Is it time for birthdays? I run with plum. What's going on? Outro: I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: That's right, Chad. Another year around the sun for some of our listeners. And if you've been listening to our fantasy football updates, you know that that I love a good nickname. And for some reason I can't control myself. I'm starting to give nicknames to the birthday people. So, apologies. You're just, I just, I need my fix. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. All right. So celebrating another year around the sun, we got Tom Bartles and James. See what I did there? Chris Grosjean, Chanel Nelson, Michael O'Dell, Beckham Jr., Joanne Lockwood, Chris Russell, the love muscle, Marvelous Marvin Morgan, Steve Empringham, Jason Roberts, Robbin Schooling, Michelle Cryer and Tommy Boy, Tom Eckhart are all celebrating another year around the sun. Are the nicknames too much? Should I not do... I mean, you laughed. So if you laugh, somebody else probably... Chad: Apparently, you know more about Chris Russell than we do. [laughter] Joel: His wife has a Twitter account that you should check out. Chad: Okay. Anyway, events, events. Here we go. Joel: We'll get to the PornHub stuff later, folks. Don't worry. Don't worry. Chad: So TA Week in San Diego, January 29th through the 1st of February. Join us at the San Diego Zoo. Have you ever been to the San Diego Zoo? Joel: I have not, but it's world famous. Chad: I've heard from many people listening to this podcast that it is amazing. So if you're going to be at TA Week on day zero, that's Monday, January 29th from 2:00 to 5:00 Pacific Time, we're going to be at the zoo to experience the biggest koala colony outside of Australia. There it is. Look at it, YouTube, kids. And listener, listener, you can win free tickets into the zoo by heading off to chadcheese.com, click on the events link in the upper right hand corner or just go to chadcheese.com/events. And right there on the header, you can register to go to the zoo with us on day one. And then on day two, we're going to be in the qualify booth interviewing the best and brightest practitioners that are out there. And this event is going to be a lot of fun. And I can't wait, dude, because I am totally fucking ready to leave the gray of Indiana and get some SoCal sun on my skin. You know what I mean? Joel: You've been here for a minute. You were in Portugal. Chad: I know. Joel: You're here for like... You'll be here for like a week and then... Chad: My tan is fading. This is bullshit. Then in March, 11th through 14th we're going to be at the Wynn for Transform Vegas. This is a big show. We haven't been at this one, over 3000 attendees, 100 plus investors, more than 500 startups, 300 speakers. Our first time. Once again, if you if you've never been before, we're gonna be there. It's in Vegas at the Wynn. Go to chadcheese.com/events. If you register on the site, guess what? You're going to see a discount code. That's right. Chad & Cheese always looking to save you cash. Joel: Yeah, we're expanding our footprint, Chad. We haven't been to TA Week. We haven't been to Transform, you know, so we're bulging. I like it. I like the exposure. And by the way, speaking of bulging, our travel is sponsored by our friends at Shaker Recruitment Marketing as always. Chad: I got to say real quick for them, they send one of the smartest Christmas presents or New Year's presents or holiday gifts. And here's why, kids, it's balsamic and it's olive oil. And it's got the Shaker logo on it. Now, if it was booze, you generally wouldn't leave it on your counter all year until it's used up. You go put it with your booze cabinet or what have you. But this, you put out on your counter and you have the Shaker logo until you use it all. And it takes a while to use the size bottle that they have. So that's, I thought about this week, that's incredibly smart from the kids over at Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Joel: Yeah, I keep mine in the bathroom. It's great on my skin to keep it nice and smooth, but still... Chad: I don't want to know what you use that for. Joel: It's the same point, Chad, it sits there for a while. I've got a lot of skin, but still it takes a while to empty that thing. Chad: I don't want to know. I don't want to know. Joel: That's good. Shaker in the household all year round. That's what I love. And I guess that's it. There's no more fantasy football. I feel so lonely. I need that hello darkness, my old friend soundbite. Unfortunately, I guess we don't have it. Chad: Simon & Garfunkel to start the show. Joel: So good. So good. All right. Indeed. That's right. We're starting with Indeed. I know you're surprised, has launched Tech Network, an industry-specific programmatic ad service allowing enterprise-scale customers to distribute job ads across 50 plus tech websites. The platform aims to help employers fill hard-to-find roles with a healthcare focused network coming soon. The updated service has integrations with over 300 applicant tracking systems aiming to simplify the hiring process. Employers using Tech Network in the US experience a significant increase in relevant applicants from skilled candidates. That's according to, you guessed it, Indeed. The platform is expected to expand to more markets in the near future. Chad, your thoughts on the Indeed Tech Network? Chad: Why wasn't Indeed doing this already? They bought ClickIQ how many fucking years ago. They weren't already using their advanced tech, yeah, that's sarcasm, kids, to target qualified candidates. They're literally announcing that they never were really targeting relevant candidates before. So it was all bullshit. Before this, it was all bullshit. You never got relevant stuff as it was. And if you're using Indeed, you probably knew that anyway. So this sounds like either a cry for help or even a diversion more than a new product. And seriously, how do you get the market to stop talking about your failed pay-per-apply or pay-per-started-apply products? Well, you create something they should have accomplished 10 years ago. I would label this maybe even more as an Indeed smokescreen. Also the love they gave for like having 300 plus ATS integrations, total bullshit. If you've ever worked with an applicant tracking system before, everyone in the industry knows that integrating with an ATS is fucking hard. Routine maintenance breaks it. Pixels don't work. And when you're as big of a bully as Indeed is, no applicant tracking system really wants to see you succeed. Chad: And we know that because we've had candid conversations with applicant tracking system leaders for well over a decade. They hate those motherfuckers. Last but not least, a word of warning for job sites that are involved in this new product. Ask yourself what happens when the bulk of your specialized candidates are now in Indeed's database. What happens then? What happens? Indeed cuts off your revenue stream and you die. That's what happens. There are a lot of job sites, and I got a lot of messages this morning around this, there are a lot of job sites that are not doing well right now. Joel: No. Chad: And Indeed knows that they are looking for cash. They're looking for the heroin, right? This is Indeed's way of giving that little heroin drip. And a lot of these job sites are gonna get suckered into it. They're gonna push all their specialized candidates into Indeed and then Indeed is just going to fucking boa constrictor their ass and kill them. Joel: In addition to the IQ comment about being programmatic, my second thought was why would they kill the API? They were the backfill for so many job sites for free. All they had to do was target specific niches. The other thing that popped in my head was a trip back to the future in that when I was at Job Options, our primary marketing strategy was to partner with industry sites, associations, news sites and then we would power a job site. People would click jobs if they went to whatever site and then they would see our jobs. If they applied or posted their resume that it would be posted onto our network. All the pricing stuff was... Like we powered the whole thing. Google killed it. Google killed that whole model because that was a much cheaper way to get traffic. It turns out people that go to a new site do click jobs but it's like 10% of the of the visitors whereas Google if I search jobs, like everyone's clicking those links. Joel: So that model is super old and that made me think, well now that Google for Jobs is here, Indeed is maybe back in the situation where okay well we can't rely on Google for the traffic anymore. How do we leverage what we have to do that? So they're like, let's go back to the old partner model where we'll power jobs for people, and this is also the recruitology/job case model. So you're seeing now these job case sites pop up. They're more or less on newspaper sites, so it's like locally focused. So Indeed is partnered with, I guess, Wired according to the news release, Stack Overflow and a few others like that. It reeks of we're desperate. We can't get traffic, and now let's create a new way to get money from people. So now their salespeople can call all the companies looking for tech talent and say, oh, we have 50 plus sites in our tech network. It's only gonna cost you X to be on this network. So now they're gonna get more money out of people and then when healthcare launches, like no surprise that's probably the second biggest dollar amount you can grab is healthcare. Joel: So now they're gonna call all the healthcare systems and say, oh, we have this new health network with all these sites that you know. I wouldn't be surprised if they're if they're paying Wired to have that real estate. That would be an interesting twist, is if Indeed is paying some people to have that real estate because if Wired's giving to them for free or even a rev share, I think they they are cheating themselves out of some profit. So this feels like a story from 25 plus years ago is new again because of the same issues. No search traffic and let's see how we can get more money and make it look like we're strategically helping you target these specific individuals. I think it's a big... Chad: Back to we talked about Stack Overflow actually ditching their jobs and their careers section that they wanted to go after. It didn't work, kids. Do you think putting a jobs link that didn't work before but having it powered by Indeed is going to work? It's not gonna fucking work. So what's gonna happen is they're going to charge more CPC wise because they've got these names that they're gonna throw on marketing material and it's all fucking, it's again, it's all fucking smoke and mirrors. This is the Indeed smokescreen. That's what it is. Joel: Yeah if you know the model hit us up on on the socials. Are they paying for this real estate? Are they rev sharing it? What's going on here? I'd like to know. SFX (sound Effects): Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: And more pills. Let's go to our friends at LinkedIn. They've introduced new job search features aimed at making career transitions easier for users. The new collections feature categorizes jobs based on interest such as sports or gaming, making it easier for users to discover relevant opportunities. Additionally, LinkedIn says users now have more control over their job preferences, allowing them to set criteria like employment type, pay preference, and location such as remote work. Preferences matching the users criteria are highlighted, wait for it, in green. Should the competition be green with envy, Chad? Your thoughts. Chad: So bad. So bad. Oh, you mean about LinkedIn, not the joke. Yeah. Joel: Yeah, sorry. Chad: So last week, Joel, you pondered the the power of GenAI in LinkedIn and my response is that it'll be like strapping a jet engine on a Cessna. And this week, well, they they proved me right. What kind of sorry ass search bullshit is this? We're using GenAI, and if you're watching us on, if you're not watching us on YouTube, I'm using the air quotes, kids, "GenAI." Dude you can do that with basic fucking search and match. I mean, dumbed down search and match. Not the more advanced stuff like Textkernel. So they had more advanced stuff with other vendors available to them that they just never used. So they're receiving a rise in applications because their platform sucked in the first place. They could do nothing but go up and now they've applied 2010 basic search methodology and they want to call it AI. I call bullshit. LinkedIn, listen up, your platform is old. Your tech is in heavy tech debt and here's a message to your sugar daddy, Microsoft. Microsoft, do yourself a favor and implode LinkedIn. Help them build something that works starting from the ground up and then stop that basic bitch AI narrative. It's beneath you. They've got a lot of great talent. They've got a lot of great tech. They just need to be running parallel like Monster should have done during the Indeed days to be able to build this thing up and then continue to build that moat. SFX (sound Effects): Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: If you are connected me on LinkedIn, you know that I regularly like to post related search results that I typically get from Glassdoor which tells me that I should be a janitor at my local high school or maybe making pizza pies at the local Papa John's. Now, I have nothing against Papa John's. They make a damn good pizza, and its founder is from Ball State University, but we won't go into him, because he got in a little bit of trouble a few years after that. Anyway, for the first time, I showed a related search from LinkedIn who thinks I should be a host at my local Olive Garden. Now, I don't know if it took the fact that I have... The fact that I'm a co-host on a podcast... Chad: Probably. Joel: And somehow thinks that I'm a host at a restaurant, but that is just bad AI if nothing else. Chad: It's not AI. Joel: Yeah, I don't know what the hell... I don't know what's going on. I don't know if they just... Because the OpenAI, like Microsoft and OpenAI, LinkedIn should be crushing the AI like related search. You should feel like you're on Netflix when you're on LinkedIn about jobs that are applicable to you. They clearly are not getting the job done because co-host of a podcast and hostess or host of a restaurant are really far apart from each other. I'm seeing more and more job stuff in profiles, in searches I do. Like if you worked at a certain company and you're searching someone, they'll have like jobs at that company. So they're focused more on jobs and I get the fact that, you know, a recent story, applicant... They said that applications have risen 50% in the US as well as 36% globally with 85% of working people contemplating changing jobs this year. Joel: So somebody at the high ups at LinkedIn said there's gonna be a lot of job search traffic, how do we get more people to our jobs? And the flip side of that is they're probably getting less job search traffic maybe because of Google, maybe because of people figuring other ways to get jobs like watching TikToks where people are saying they're paying 60 grand to their pizzerias. I don't know what's going on but they are clearly falling down on the job search from traffic perspective, companies are probably telling them we're not getting the traffic that we used to or that we want... So they are hell bent whether they do it right or wrong to get more traffic and try to get more people to apply to these jobs, but as my related search results show, they are failing miserably at that task. Chad: Horrible, horrible, horrible. Joel: We'll be right back. SFX (sound Effects): Just the tip. Joel: All right, Chad, who's ready for a little Who'd You Rather? That's right, that's right. Chad: Let's go, let's go. Joel: You know how it works, kids. We talk about two companies that have recently gotten a little bit of funding and Chad and I will review those companies and tell you who we'd rather. So if you're ready to play, Chad, let's get to company number one, Mercor has secured 3.6 million dollars in funding. The company introduces an AI-powered platform for automated candidate vetting. Mercor promises to pull data from various sources to create a holistic applicant profile, enabling quick, precise matches for specific roles. Founded in 2023, they claim to have achieved seven figure annual recurring revenue and boast a talent pool of 100,000 users across 25 countries. That is, Mercor! Joel: And in this corner, we have PerformYard. They secured $95 million in funding, which they say will be used to enhance their software suite and expand the team. The platform, founded in 2013, not quite a startup, offers tools for performance reviews, feedback, and employee engagement surveys. Claiming over 1500 business customers, PerformYard says it has experienced 5x revenue growth in the last four years. Chad, who'd you rather, PerformYard or Mercor? Chad: Now, Mercor, very much like parkour, got to say their explainer video was really sharp. They did a really good job on that. And here's my problem. The CEO and founder has no experience in this space. And here's an example, "our crawlers automatically pull information from resumes, GitHub, personal portfolios, websites, and more to create a picture of every applicant." So that sounds exactly like the same message a HiringSolved or Crowded had about six to seven years ago, right? Then PerformYard, PerformYard, on the other hand, really needs to start tying their retention and productivity platform to the end result that the C-suite really cares about, slow attrition and bigger revenues. They have exactly what every other platform would kill to have, but the marketing message is falling way short of the C-suite's give a shit mark. But no matter, this Who'd You Rather is pretty lopsided. And I'd rather have a more established player who needs to tweak their message over a newcomer with little to no experience. I would rather the Yard, PerformYard. [music] Joel: All right. This was a hard one to pick because they're both sort of eh in my book. So Mercor, you're right. Mercor is sourcing with a new wrapper. It's a chatbot sort of interface. You chat like, hey, I need some PHP developers. And you go through a chat kind of scenario. It's all tech-focused. And we know that tech layoffs are sort of a thing these days. So the amount of people that are hiring tech, I know, is probably at the floor and going up from here. But it's not exactly the best place to do business. At the moment, we've seen a major, major collapse of the sourcing tool, whether it's SeekOut, sort of, I don't know what they're doing currently. HiringSolved, gone. Hiretual, rebranded. There's just, it's been commoditized. So I don't know. Just making this a chat thing isn't going to change the game for sourcing. So I'm not super interested in them. And then I go to PerformYard. Joel: They've been around a long time. It hasn't happened yet, which kind of makes me a little bit concerned. They've, 95 million in funding. They got to be doing something right. Chad: A lot of cash. Joel: That says something about that. Although we know the risks of raising too much money sometimes is better than the opposite side of that. My big problem with PerformYard is the competition. You got Lattice, you got 15Five, Leapsome, Trakstar, Culture Amp. There's a lot of competition. So do I pick the company where they have little competition because all the competition is gone or rebranded? Or do I take the company that has a ton of competition and is going to have a hell of a hard time making it? So this is a really tough one. And I refuse to not pick either. So if you put a gun to my head, a virtual gun in this case, because you're going to the VR shooting zombies, I'm going to have to go with Mercor because there's nobody left. And maybe it's just timing. Maybe it's a QR code thing. Chad: Could be, could be. Joel: Everyone had QR codes for a while, and then everyone went out of business with QR codes, and then the pandemic happened, and then QR codes were cool again. So maybe Mercor is going to be cool again. Chad: Maybe. Joel: Maybe. Yeah, maybe parachute pants are back. Maybe Z cavariccis are back, and maybe sourcing for tech talent is back. So in this case, for me, Mercor. And that is another game of Who'd You Rather. All right, Chad, let's get to one of your favorite guys. Chad: Who? Joel: Goldman Sachs and DJ Sol. Goldman Sachs has ended its Launch With GS initiative, committing 1 billion to companies led by women and people of color. The bank claims to have fulfilled its goal, deploying the funds to nearly 60 investments. So I guess Goldman Sachs solved racism, Chad. I missed that headline. Chad: Yeah, I did too. Joel: Regina Green, the head of Launch With GS, announced her departure, and the bank is shifting focus to the One Million Black Women initiative, pledging $10 billion in investment capital over 10 years. The move comes amid broader challenges for diversity programs, and Goldman facing criticism for extending beyond its core business. Chad, are you picking up what DJ Sol is dropping? Chad: So I got to say, over the past weeks and months, we've seen several privileged individuals claim that they want to claw back these types of promises or programs. And instead of focusing on that, let's focus on something real world and working class. And nothing is more working class than the military. So earlier this week, on Monday, Martin Luther King Day, John Popelka shared his story on LinkedIn, and it was a lot like mine. So first off, John and I, who have never met, although we both grew up in Ohio, where racism flourished, we joined the army, where about 50% of our basic training classes were diverse. Both John and I had very influential leaders of color all throughout our careers in the military. Those leaders shaped us and the people that we are today. But I want to mimic what John writes in his post, "I thank God for the leaders in my life who deprogrammed all that bullshit out of me." He goes on to say, "love and gratitude to all of the change agents past and present who worked tirelessly to make the American dream a little more accessible to all." That last part, make the American dream a little bit more accessible to all, that just stuck with me after reading about the DEIB programs being demonized and cut our country, our success, our failures, everything happened as a melting pot. Chad: And to not understand our greatest strength, which is diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, is to not understand our history and how we got here and what America truly is. So shout out to John Popelka, who showed us a little bit of his soul this week. And then also that's the working class and how the impact actually happens, unlike a DJ Sol who is pissing and moaning at a country club, right? This is this is the real world. Joel: Yeah, I feel like a broken record on the DEI conversation because ever... And we talked about it, ever since the Supreme Court struck down affirmative action, we knew that companies would start unplugging from these initiatives, that the PR machine would pay less attention to that as a result. And it was sort of a green light to strike that down. And in accordance to your friend, these initiatives, affirmative action, for example if you're a kid of color in this country, and you hear affirmative action is gone, are you more or less likely to apply to a prestigious university? I don't know. But I would guess less, because you feel like maybe there's no way that you're going to get in. So why even bother? That may or may not be the reality. But the perception is there. And I think perception has a really strong presence in this issue. Because $10 billion over 10 years, okay, $10 billion sounds like a lot of money. $10 billion over 10 years to Goldman Sachs is not, it's a great headline. And there's nothing saying that two years from now, they don't cancel this initiative... Chad: Yes. Joel: And do something else, and then just keep moving the ball, keeping the media on their toes and what the hell's going on. You really have to look at the proof. Proof is in the pudding, right? So anytime I hear these DEI stories, and people get out or people, people are committed to it, go to their website, go to their about us page, and look at their executive team. I'm serious. Because if they don't walk the walk, then fuck them. And if you go to Goldman Sachs' about us page and their executive site, let me get these numbers right here for you, Chad. They have six white guys on their executive team. And they have two white women. I said white twice there and I didn't say color once. So if Goldman wants to really walk the walk, let's get some persons of color on the executive team. How about that? That would be that would be a good start. We'll be right back. SFX (sound Effects): I'm as mad as hell. And I'm not gonna take this anymore. Joel: Can I interest you in some PornHub data, Chad? I know you love data. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Joel: PornHub has released its annual report on global porn consumption. The report includes various data points and charts analyzing trends in online adult content consumption. Some notable findings include the popularity of certain categories linked to racial and ethnic terms highlighting issues of fetishization and sexual racism. Additionally, the report notes a rise in searches for trans porn, with baby boomers and cisgender women contributing to increased interest. The report also provides state specific data revealing unique preferences in different regions, such as Maryland's interest in glory holes, and Missouri's top search being transformation. Chad, there's a lot to swallow here. SFX (sound Effects): What are you doing, step bro? Joel: Your thoughts? Chad: Yeah, I got nothing, dude. I looked at the list and I didn't know some of the terms. I'm looking and I'm like, what the fuck? But but some of the information really didn't surprise me because they were talking about some of the more mature terms, like mature sex, porn, what have you. Joel: Sure. Chad: And again, it's baby boomers. They've got nothing to do. They've retired. They're taking these little fucking blue pills. And they're getting told no, apparently. So they got to do something. They got to do something. So it just kind of makes sense. Joel: Old dicks, young chicks never gets old. Chad: Blame the boomers. Joel: Some of my faves here, Chad, the boomers' favorite category was smoking. Are they smoking during sex? Are they smoking brisket? I don't know why smoking would be the top search term. Chad: Like the Marlboro Man? Are they looking for the Marlboro Man sex? Joel: I don't know, they're reconnecting with the '60s and '70s. Everybody smoked, like that's how they had sex, and they want to relive that, I don't know. "Star Wars" was the top movie character search, that makes total sense, unless Chewbacca is something more... Chad: Princess Leia. Joel: More popular than Princess Leia, totally get that. So the top relative searches by state when compared to other searches by those by those states. So North Dakota's number one search term was loud wet sex. SFX (sound Effects): We are experiencing technical issues. Joel: Loud wet sex in North Dakota. Go figure. Mississippi was furry. Connecticut, Connecticut. This is good. Talk about some freakazoids in Connecticut. Speaking of Chris Russell's love muscle, double vagina. Double vagina was the number one. Chad: I don't... No, stop. Joel: I don't even, I don't know. I don't even know what's going on here. So Chad, I wanted to look at our top search terms at Chad & cheese for the year because I don't think we'd get anything close to that. But so for those that are interested, layoffs and iCIMS was very good to us in 2023. We had Beamer layoffs, iCIMS layoffs, Veritone layoffs, Radancy layoffs and Deal layoffs being top terms that sent people to the site. In terms of iCIMS, iCIMS CEO resigns was a top search term as well as iCIMS CEO steps down. And my favorite, who is iCIMS CEO? Those were top search terms for our site. And the number one search term that was not Chad or Cheese, that had Chad or Cheese in it was, wanna take a guess? Chad: Indeed. Joel: Oh, close. Keep going. Indeed blank. Chad: Indeed sucks. Joel: Yes. Yes. Way to go, Chad. Chad: Yes. Yes. Joel: Indeed, the gift that keeps on giving, just like PornHub. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Like a good fight? Well, you're in luck. This episode is for you. This week, the boys are covering fights between OpenAI and The New York Times, Elon Musk and Mark Cuban, and Miller Lite and Bud Light. Good thing Chad is back from Europe and in a fighting mood. We take on challenges to DEI and the rise of minimum wages in New York and California, while beer mints are hoping to be a thing. (It's not.) What's more snarky TikTok'ers, Big Macs, and Bird scooters ... Oh, my. Grab a cold one and enjoy. Again, what the hell is Dry January? PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who will not be head coach of the Alabama Crimson Tide next season. What's up kids? You're listening to the Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Flacco Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad living in America Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, OpenAI versus the New York Times. Miller Lite versus Bud Light and Elon versus Mark Cuban. Let's do this. Joel: You're back. Chad: It's good to be back to work, my friend. Joel: You're back and it's only 38 degrees, so you're good, man. It's golden. You brought some sunshine with you to the Midwest. Very nice. Chad: Yep, some sunshine, but yes, it's fucking cold. This is not cool. This is not cool. I was prepared for this, but I wasn't prepared for this. Joel: Yeah. What, Tim, did you leave like '70s, '80s? What? Chad: Well, first off we flew back to Paris because that's where we came in. So we spent the night in Paris and we loved the Algarve and the Algarve was I don't know, it was close to 65 degrees, 70 degrees. Joel: Lovely. Chad: Nice, nice. Joel: Lovely. Chad: Flying to Paris, motherfucker, it was snowing in Paris. That's bullshit. That's bullshit. I was not ready for that, but it got me ready. So, coming back here, at least it wasn't snow as of yet. It wasn't snow so it was all good. It was all good. Got a lot of rest, slept well, got up this morning, had a pot of coffee... Joel: There you go. Chad: And I'm back in America in Chad mode right now. I am work, getting to my emails, I'm doing all this shit that I don't do when I'm in Europe. Joel: Were your dogs happy to see you? Did they remember who you are? Chad: Oh yes. Oh yes. The dogs love it, especially the first few days. 'Cause I don't let them sleep in the bed with us. We got three big dogs. The first few days though, acclimate, come on back in. And it's a good thing. So all good in the hood. One thing I do wanna say though, it's like Christmas in fucking January around this bitch. I had a ton of industry friends send gifts, mainly booze while I was gone. So it was all just piled up, ready for me. So I'll be doing some TikToks and some videos and whatnot thanking people. Joel: Yeah, some unboxing videos is that what we have to look forward to? So we're going from like... Chad: Yeah, somewhat. Joel: We're going from Club Med swinger videos in Portugal to box opening videos in Columbus, Indiana. Chad: First off, don't be projecting your wishes and your dreams on me as what... I'm doing that shit. Joel: Dude, there's a video you put up, it looks like the Grotto from the Playboy mansion, but it's big and outside. And there are dudes in Speedos relaxing on the beach and... Chad: Fucking Europe. It sounds like Europe. Joel: It's Club Med swingers action is what I'm saying. Chad: No, that's just Europe. Joel: Oh man. Oh man. Well, welcome back... Chad: Good to be back. Joel: Good for you. We go to San Diego in a couple of weeks, so you get to... Chad: Can't wait. Joel: It's gonna be a cold weekend. It's gonna be a cold weekend here in the Midwest. Chad: Thank God. Joel: I get to go to Montreal today, so that's... Chad: Lucky bastard. Joel: Oh, we'll get to that in traveling but let's get to shoutouts, 'cause we've got a lot of stuff going on this weekend. My shout-out. Chad: Hit it. Joel: Is a triple thread food shout-out. You're gonna love this. All right. Chad: Really? Okay. Joel: Number one, let's start off with this. Mikal Bridges, NBA basketball player plays for the Nets. My new favorite basketball player, and I'm sure you wanna know why. He admitted this past week that he has eaten Chipotle every day for the last 10 years. 10 years, 365 every day. I'm not sure it's every day, but it's a lot. Yes. Speaker 3: Chipotle is my life. Joel: Chad, not all heroes wear capes. Some of them order the Barbacoa bowl with extra queso. So that's my number one. My number two, Chad, as a kid of the '80s, you remember the Wendy's commercials, where's the beef? Speaker 4: Where's the beef? Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: It's really important in your burger that you have a nice balance between the beef and the bun? Speaker 4: Where's the beef? Joel: And the bun. Chad: Yes. Joel: And the Big Mac, one of probably the most known burger around the world. You can go to Big Mac in France and get a Big Mac. Chad: Special sauce. Joel: The problem with the Big Mac for me... Speaker 4: Where is the beef? Joel: Too much bread, not enough meat. You got the middle layer of the bread. You got the regular bread, and then you got the little tiny cheeseburger patty, not the quarter pounders. Speaker 4: Where is the beef? Joel: The cheeseburger. Well, McDonald's is solving that like much of the other problems in my life. They're bringing the double, basically double, double Big Mac. So two patties... Speaker 4: Where's the beef? Joel: On each side of the middle bread here for a limited time in the United States, starting January 24th. Chad: Thank God. Fuck. Joel: Guess where I'm gonna be for lunch on January 24th Chad? Eating a Big Mac... Speaker 4: Where's the beef? Joel: At McDonald's. That's my two. Number three on the food. The food goodness. We might as well be the Food Network podcast. Wendy's... Speaker 4: Where is the Beef? Joel: Has recently launched Wendy's Fresh AI. I'm sure you're wondering what that is. They partner with Google to create basically a real time automated chat in the drive-through. We've talked about this. That it's gonna happen. Wendy's has partnered with Google, buy that Google stock now 'cause it's a little bit depressed at the moment. We're talking about 22 seconds on average save time for people that go through the faster fresh AI lane, up to 99% accuracy. If you have a problem, it goes to a human being. If you start cussing out at it, a human being comes on and saves you. But my shout-out goes to three of my favorite places in the world, Chipotle, McDonald's, and Wendy's. Thanks for making life a little better. Here's to you. Speaker 4: Where's the beef? Chad: I've had so many people comment to me on how much better fast food tastes in Europe. And it's all because they don't have all the... And chemicals that we put in our food here. [laughter] So they're getting much cleaner food in their fast food. And it's not really that fast in Europe either. We're trying to get things in seconds versus minutes. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Fast food industrial complex baby. Joel: But you've been away a while. Ozempic is a big thing now. These drugs that help you lose weight. So this is clearly the fast food industry combating the Ozempic tidal wave. Like, we're gonna put more patties on the big Macs, more nuggets in the box. Like this is... Chad: We'll show you. Joel: This is how we're gonna fight back, Chad. Here's how we're gonna fight back against science. More food. Speaker 4: Where's the beef? Chad: So we're gonna move away from fast food and back to HR. So my first shout-out is to transparency. In 2024, I'd like to challenge TA and HR to be more genuine and transparent, and here's what I mean by that. A head of HR posted something on LinkedIn that I'm gonna paraphrase. I believe it was intended to be a New Year's Eve or New Year's inspirational post, but I don't think it landed that way. It said, and again, I'm gonna paraphrase. In the new year, a high five or a big thank you means more than a promotion or a raise. This year, make an effort to shout-out to those who make the workplace awesome instead of giving them cash. What are your thoughts about that, Joel? Joel: I'm not a buyer of high fives versus cash. I'm not picking up what they're dropping on that one. And I can't imagine any worker adopting that preference over cash. Chad: No. Joel: Look, money talks my friend, especially in America. Chad: Yes. Joel: Take out the wallets, write some checks, companies. The high fives aren't gonna cut it. Chad: Man. So I believe it totally lands disingenuous and it portrays HR as nothing more than a pawn to the C-Suite, and not truly giving a shit about the people they're supposed to be looking out for. It all comes down to trust. And I wanna play a little video from Simon Sinek around trust. Here we go. [video playback] Chad: So I think again, trying to pull all that stuff, all that together, if we are more genuine, and less full of shit in 2024, I think we might start regaining trust back. I think we might. So let's give a shout-out to transparency and also to being genuine this year, in 2024. Joel: This is not a new trend. Children have been seeing their parents screwed over a long, long time. But I appreciate the way that he highlights it there, Mr. Sinek. I appreciate that. Chad: Yeah, love it. Joel: And speaking of Sinek, Chad... Chad: Oh, no. Joel: I'm sure you like I remember our first ride on a scooter. Micromobility is what the kids call it, apparently. Chad: Wasn't it Austin? Didn't we do that together in Austin? Joel: It was Austin, yes. And how you lived through that, I have no idea because you have no restraint on crosswalks, my friend. But Bird scooters, you may have seen this, filed for bankruptcy. This is why we can't have nice things Chad. People are throwing these things in the river up in trees, taking them home like... Chad: And dumpsters catching shit on fire. Joel: Yeah. No, they've made some bad decisions. They went IPO through a SPAC, which we know the history of those companies. So, Bird bankruptcy, maybe they'll figure it out. Maybe Elon will come along and write a check and make them all test for scooters. Chad: Acquisition test. Joel: That would've been a better one than Twitter. Lime scooters continue to live on. They seem to be doing okay, but clearly, human beings are not ready for freewheeling scooters on the streets of big cities around the world. And I, for one, as you know, am incredibly saddened at the prospect of scooters going the way of, I don't know, bikes on... Chad: The dodo. Joel: Yeah. The dodo, the buggy whip, whatever. I will tell my grandchildren about the good old days riding the Bird scooters in downtown USA. Chad: Love ya. Love ya. All right. I'm gonna go ahead and again, another HR kind shout-out. This one's to job hopping. So in HR, we've all been programmed that job hopping is bad, but exactly who is it bad for? Well, here's Vivian too. When she appeared on the Eric Siu podcast, take a listen. [video playback] Chad: And you know, as well as I do, there are so many of those people that just hang around and they're in the job forever, and they're not the best. They're C players at best. So keeping them, is that what you're looking for? Are you looking for one of them when you're going to recruit somebody, instead of... What we're used to is nah, no job hoppers. In this case, the job hoppers are the ones that are obviously in demand. And this goes well against what we've been taught in recruiting. Why is that? Because it's bad for the company, it's not bad for the employee. Although I think it's actually better for the company and you have to get into that understanding that you're gonna have that churn. The big key is, can I keep them for four instead of two? What can I do to incentivize them to... Maybe not promote, maybe they don't wanna be promoted. Maybe they just want something else. It doesn't matter. You have to know your people better. And I think that from a company standpoint is really our superpower. We have to know our people better. Joel: And you mentioned transparency. Transparency helps this immensely because in the days where you don't know who's getting paid, it's really hard to have a conversation with your boss and saying, Hey, everyone that's coming in that's new, that is my job, is getting paid more than me. That's not fair. And that's a great negotiating point for your boss to say, you know what, you're right, you should be making what you're making. And I've seen, my wife is a college professor. She sees new professors coming in, it's a public university. They all know what everyone's getting paid. So there's a lot of resentment around newbies getting paid more than you. But there are conversations with the deans saying, "Hey, why is this new person getting paid more than me? I should be getting paid more than them." So transparency helps us a lot. And it goes down to my 17-year-old son who recognized that newbies, he's been on the job a year plus, we're getting paid more than him... Chad: Oh fuck. Joel: And good on him he went to his boss and said, it's not cool that I've been here for a year, we're talking fast food, and these new people are getting paid more than me. And he's getting a raise. So transparency and knowing, I think carries a lot of weight in that. And it's also very prescient that you showed this video, Chad, because I've been on this podcast going on seven years now, and I'm not getting any raises or any recognition or benefits. And so, [laughter] I'm gonna be turning in my resignation at the end of this. Chad: You get bourbon in the mail all the time. Joel: So anyway, all right, good shout-outs, good shout-outs. And we are transparent, Chad, with free shit. Chad: That's right. Joel: Everyone's on social media sharing it. Love doing that. It was fun during the holidays. Birthdays are always fun. But if you haven't signed up kids, chadcheese.com, click the free link. People are getting free booze, we're talking bourbon from our friends at Textkernel, Beer from Aspen Tech Labs, T-shirts from JobGet. And if it's your birthday in any particular month, you could win a nice bottle of rum from our friends at Plum. And that sound, Chad, you know... Chad: I can feed it all the way down to my plums. Joel: Means that we're gonna celebrate some birthdays this month. Chad: Birthdays. Joel: That's right. Fans that are celebrating another trip around the sun include Jagged Little Jill Patterson. You remember her from fantasy football? She's still licking her wounds from losing in the final four there. Chad: She did well. She did well. Joel: Paul Drake, Jenny Olsson, GJ Vassdarp, Rita Doshi, and Craig Fisher, AKA Fish Dogs all celebrate another trip around the Sun. Happy birthday to those listeners. Speaker 6: Happy birthday. Chad: Happy birthday. And well, it's gonna be... It's another year, which means it's another year of events. Later this month, we are going to be at TA week in San Diego where we will be hanging out with a crew from Koalafi that's like qualified. But Koala, Koalafi at the Koala colony meetup. Joel: What? Chad: Yes. We're gonna go see Koalas at the San Diego Zoo. Evan White has a ton of other VIP after hours events planned. But if you're gonna be at TA week, stop by the Koalafi booth for a T-shirt, do we have any T-shirts left? Joel: We're at the bottom of the barrel of T-shirts. And we're negotiating another deal, hopefully a new design. Pretty excited about it. We'll talk further. But people love the Hard Rock, the Rock T-shirt... We went with the AC-DC. I think we gotta go with something similar. But yeah, stay tuned for new T-shirts coming in in 2024. And by the way, Koalafi is like a dad joke a company. It's like Koala, Koalafi like so as a dad, I appreciate the Daddy jokingness. By the way, I got a good dad joke for you, Chad. Did you hear about the... Chad: Oh, geez. Joel: Did you hear about the chameleon that couldn't change colors? Chad: I did not. Joel: He had a reptile dysfunction. [laughter] Joel: That's good. That's not bad. Chad: Very on brand. Very on brand. Joel: That's not bad. Chad: Real quick. We are also going to be at Transform in Vegas March 11th through the 14th. They have over 3,000 attendees, 100 plus vendors, more than 500 startups and over 300 speakers. We have not been to TA Week or Transform before. So two new shows for the Chad and Cheese. Go to chadcheese.com/events. That's right /events in the header. We actually have a discount code for Transform. So go ahead and click on register and have at it. Hope to see you there. Joel: We are bulging into new events this year. We are bulging into new territories, which by the way, Chad, if you haven't checked out the Chad & Cheese Podcast Does Data only on YouTube. You gotta check it out. We've partnered with Toby Dayton, the Sasquatch of Statistics. Easy for me to say only, on YouTube. We look at the monthly employment report, break it down and in just three shows, Chad, the winds of change are strong. The economy can flip on a whim. And the last show to this month's show very interesting, very interesting things on the horizon. Chad: It is interesting. Joel: So you gotta check that out. Youtube.com@chadcheese. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any episodes in the Future. [music] Joel: Topics. Chad: Topics. Joel: All right, Chad, we haven't talked about layoffs for a while, so let's hit some layoffs for the new year. Chad: Coming Strong. Joel: That's right. Lever, in case you missed it, owned by Employ who also owns Jobvite has "Cut a slew of workers" but not exact numbers are known. I don't know how much a slew is, but that's what the San Francisco Standard quoted in their story. Chad: Sounds like a lot. Joel: Apparently customer service reps were the most impacted. I fear that they're not the only workforce company in the coming months to have layoffs. We will keep you abreast of that. From a macro picture, Google and your favorite Amazon have also announced some layoffs. And if you're an NFL football fan, Pete Carroll, Mike Vrabel and Bill Belichick are all looking for new jobs. Word is, they might be... Chad: Three head coaches. Joel: They might be starting a competitive podcast to take on Pat McAfee including Aaron Rogers. So we should be looking out for that. Any thoughts from you on layoffs around the country? Chad: Yeah, we're seeing a lot of these companies. I mean, even BlackRock is talking about laying off 600, 3% of their staff as well. A lot of companies, not all, are going to be impacted by AI. Not from the standpoint of AI doing somebody's job, but it just impacting business flow. In this case, Lever, I don't think has anything to do with that. I think they've been on the ropes for a little while. They were acquired, obviously on the ropes prior to that. Still on the ropes. And I think... I'm not going to say they have problems, but they do have some huge some obstacles ahead of them. They have all of these different companies. They still haven't aligned those companies from a business strategy standpoint, from a go to market standpoint. And it's incredibly hard running one company with one platform versus three fucking platforms. To me, it sounds like a goddamn nightmare. Another nightmare that I've heard of that's coming is SmartRecruiters. It sounds like the dominoes are falling there. Jeremy Johnson, CFO, out. Rachel Orston, Chief Customer Officer, out. James Chan, VP of Global Presales, out. Charlie Nelson, who's been there for eleven years, Chief Sales Officer, out. Joel: Damn. Chad: And from the intel that I'm getting, there are going to be more key players leaving in Q1. So there are a lot of changes happening. A lot of changes happening. And remember, Jerome was there for a while. We got the new CEO that came in, kind of saw that that was going to happen. But this is... The winds of change. I think you've just said it, the winds of change are happening. And when you take a look at... Those are two ATS players, I mean, shit, employs more than... They have three themselves. So they have a huge huge obstacle in front of them, multiple obstacles. So sitting back and watching what happens with them is going to be interesting. Good luck to those guys 'cause it's not going to be easy. Tech debt for one platform versus three fucking platforms. Oh, my God. SmartRecruiters, they've had... I think their biggest issue is go to market and really understanding who their customer is and who their competitors are and who their partners should be. Again, this is the time where things are going to shake out. We're going to see some big companies fall, some companies fall, and some acquisitions happen. Joel: House of brands or a branded house. It's a difficult decision for any company who's acquiring folks. And with Lever, Jobvite, Jazz, that becomes really convoluted for customers... Chad: Jazz Hands. Joel: And internally, multiple customer service, different sales teams. That's quite a mess. Chad: Fucking nightmare. Joel: Winds of change, Chad. It always comes back to The Scorpions, a la 1980s. Yes, more layoffs. Chad: Love me some scorpions. Joel: More layoffs for sure. I think Indeed, remember they had an investor, a little private equity action. I think they're probably going to get a haircut here in the next couple of months. No inside info. I'm predicting there'll be more efficiency at Indeed here at some point. Chad: Remember when Indeed said they were going to have an applicant tracking system? I mean a hiring system applicant? This is a hell of a lot harder than people think, you know what I mean? Joel: Bring back job tracker, I say. Bring back the app where I can take pictures of help wanted signs in my downtown and get money for it. Chad: No, no, no. Don't do it. Joel: All right. OpenAI is in the news, so let's talk about that. Several high profile lawsuits are challenging the legality of OpenAI's ChatGPT, and similar AI products, alleging copyright infringement and unfair competition. The New York Times, for instance, claim these chatbots use their intellectual property without permission, diverting web traffic and causing reputational damage. Ouch. OpenAI argues it's within fair use. The outcome promises to shape the future of AI and copyright law. Chad, what are your thoughts on OpenAI versus the New York Times? Chad: So, months ago I said that content or data was key to all these large language models, key to training and feeding the large language models. Everyone will have access to these large language models, but not everyone will have the data to train the models. There are tons of data lakes that are out there that are not open to the public. Think of unleashing a large language model on ADP Payroll data, could pay equity be fixed faster. What about unleashing a large language model on an applicant tracking system candidate pool you've spent millions of dollars amassing over the years. Could the data be enriched? Could candidates be matched and fast tracked into positions? Filling those positions faster, thus driving a more productive workforce? Shit, yes. But the thing is the content is the key. You need the fuel. You need the training data to be able to do that. So in this New York Times case, they understand their content is data, and data is the key to power the AI. I just hope that we in TA and HR understand our domain specific data is very specialized, which makes it golden. It is literally a pot of gold. Companies should be working closely with vendors to understand their data, clean it up, and start putting it to work ASAP. Chad: So I see this coming. I also see the New York Times and many other publishers, they were fooled once by Google in being able to give their content out for free. And now they're going after that money now, shit, 20 years later, now they're saying, fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, I'm coming after my pot of gold, motherfucker. Joel: Yeah. And not just Google, to me it's a Napster and maybe even Monster moment. If you're old enough to remember Napster, or at least seen a documentary on Netflix, the music industry, their choice was to destroy, sue Napster out of business as opposed to looking at how do we partner, make money? And then a few years later they had Steve Jobs walk in and basically bend them over for 99 cents a download per song. So that was probably the wrong decision. Google, like you mentioned, Prof. G, one of our favorites, likes to talk about when he was on the New York Times board talking about we should shut off Google, we should partner with every media, major media outlet in the country and say, unless you pay us, you're not going to be able to index our stuff. They obviously didn't do that and we're in kind of the position we are now if we're looking at in employment, how many times in the mid aughts did we say, why is Monster, CareerBuilder, hot jobs? Everybody letting... Chad: Indeed. Joel: Letting Indeed and SimplyHired and everybody else index their stuff. They could destroy them tomorrow by cutting off their content. Of course the thought of, well, this is a little shitty search engine thing, we're getting free traffic, who cares? And then look how that turned out. So yeah, there's been a lot of companies burned on, hey, our content is valuable, we should get paid for it. And it's not just the New York Times. Sarah Silverman comedian is suing ChatGPT as well. So there's going to be some big legal case as to how I think OpenAI and everyone's going to have to pay for the content and how they're making these models and spitting out information. I don't know how they get away with it. I think Google probably has the best chance to come out of this with the best partnerships, spending the most money. I mean, we'll see how it ends up, but going to be interesting. This is the moment where either OpenAI potentially dies or everyone gets rich and everyone is feeling good and feeling fine and cherry wine. Our next OpenAI story is about the GPT Store which just launched. Joel: The ChatGPT store allows users to share custom chatbots created through the GPT builder program. Over 3 million bots have been generated since November and is now available to ChatGPT plus, Enterprise, and a new paid tier called Team, catering to smaller teams at $25 per month per user or $30 per month per user, whether it's annual or monthly billing. OpenAI plans a revenue sharing program for GPT creators based on user engagement starting in Q1. Chad, what are your thoughts on the GPT store? Chad: That's interesting. I believe I saw a post and I got to reach out to Martin Lenz over at Jobiqo, where they've already created one of these chatbots and they're releasing it to the public as well. So, yes, this is going to be something that's big, and there are going to be different models, different versions. But again, we're going back to what they're trained off of, because if they're trained off of just basic data that's available to the public, who gives a fuck. If they're trained off of that secret source data that nobody else has, that's incredibly different. So I think this, to an extent right now, is all about nothing. They're just going to be a lot of same types of chatbots coming out. Chad: Will they be more specifically focused in certain areas, yeah, but you can do that yourself, especially if you're using just public data. The big difference here, I feel this is more of a diversion. Focus on something that is more specific to you. Martin Lenz and Company they have the access, they understand the type of specialized domain data in the public that they can use, but they also have their own data. So they can make that almost mixture special, source wise, what vendors are going to do that. That to me is what is more interesting. The rest of them are just kind of like, anybody can do that. I want to see the stuff that happens that's trained off of data that nobody else has. Joel: So App Stores have been a staple in the Internet ecosystem since Facebook did it 20 years ago, probably 18 years ago. And it was genius at the time. Twitter had... Build on Twitter, build on LinkedIn. Everybody opened up their platform and then just about everybody got burned for building stuff on those platforms. You probably remember, bknown, you might remember BranchOut, which made their entire business based on spamming people in your network on those social media platforms. Chad: Which is why it got killed. Joel: Yeah, which is why it got killed. All it's going to take is the App Store provider to change the rules and you're screwed. We're seeing App Store with Apple gamer companies 30% to Apple. How are you profitable on that? I think going back to the New York Times. If you are creating stuff where you have to have a license agreement with the company, whether it's through OpenAI or something else, I think it could be a really tough time for a lot of app makers if the New York Times wins and OpenAI has to pay license fees for all this content. Because that's going to funnel down to all the developers. They're going to have to pay a fee for using that content. Joel: I think where you're going with, could you use ATS data to create really interesting large language models? Could you use job postings which are basically free around the Internet? That becomes interesting. I think one of the threats to OpenAI is its relationship with Microsoft who owns LinkedIn. LinkedIn will probably have the coolest ChatGPT, whatever things, maybe they'll build them right onto LinkedIn's platform. But the fear of, I built something cool on ChatGPT and LinkedIn goes, oh, we don't really like that. And it's saying for some reason this is banned or this isn't going to happen. I think there's a real threat to building stuff that competes with LinkedIn and LinkedIn and Microsoft saying, I don't know about this. Google's definitely going to open up their stuff. Everyone with AI is going to open up their stuff, and we're going to see a flood of new apps, APIs in marketplaces work until they don't. ATS is in our space. Will there be apps built on ATSs that involved OpenAI, ChatGPT technology? There probably will. Chad: Yeah. They already are. Joel: Well, I'm just saying proceed with caution if you're a developer, if you're an investor in these companies, 'cause historically, when you build on someone else's property, they tend to raise the taxes, they tend to set up fences, they tend to make life a little more difficult than it was when you first came on the property. Chad: It'll be interesting, your LinkedIn example. I think it's funny 'cause it's like affixing a jet engine to a Cessna. You're going to see those things happen, but it's just not going to work. We've been talking about this for years. LinkedIn infrastructure is old, tech debt is a bitch, trying to do all these new things. If Microsoft helps them rebuild LinkedIn as we know it today and make it this AI powerhouse, man, it will be fucking beautiful. But if they do what you were talking about doing, you're putting a jet engine on a Cessna. That's just not going to work. Joel: Yeah, like silicone lubricant, on Clark Griswold's snow sled. Let's take a break and when we come back, we'll talk about DEI. Joel: All right, Chad, let's talk a little DEI, which some people are forecasting will become DIE. I guess time will tell. But Elon Musk and Mark Cuban are beefing over diversity, equity and inclusion. Musk criticized United Airlines Pilot Training Academy's 50% diversity goal for women and/or people of color. Cuban defended the goal, clarifying it applied to the training school, not the airline itself. Joel: Musk called Cuban a racist, reiterating his suggestion for diversity in Cuban's NBA team. What's more, Bill Ackman has labeled DEI as racist. Google is cutting DEI initiatives, and Lululemon's founder has gripes about Lulu's, "Whole diversity and inclusion thing", adding, you've got to be clear that you don't want certain customers coming in." Chad, it's been a long, strange trip for corporate diversity efforts. What are your thoughts? Chad: Over the years, we've talked about how many, not all DEIB programs were nothing but window dressing. When the chief diversity officer has limited or no staff and no budget, what the actual fuck are they supposed to do? They're literally told, hey, go out and do stuff, and you've got nobody. You've got no resources. What are you supposed to do? So seeing these departments of one go away, it's not a bad thing, because many of them, they weren't moving the needle in the first place. They couldn't. They didn't have the resources to be able to do that. But here's what I hope we see happen. I hope companies understand the business need for DEIB. And those companies start to contract people like Torin Ellis and Shaker's John Graham to not just make connections, but drive outcomes. Hire companies with like Disability Solutions like Pepsi did, to create better hiring and retention outcomes, and maybe even win an award from the US government, like Pepsi did, off the work and outcomes of those experts because they can drive those outcomes. They know how to. Chad: Literally, Pepsi received a pass on OFCCP audits because of their collaboration and outcomes with Disability Solutions. Now, I'm biased because Julie is the executive director of Disability Solutions, but they have proven themselves with outcomes. To me, this could be an opportunity for a lot of these companies who didn't know what the fuck they were doing in the first place, to call people in who know what they're doing. So to Cuban's point, your loss is my gain. You want to lose all of these programs, great. Fuck you. Great. I want them. Which means you're going to lose all that great talent, all that opportunity. You're going to lose it. Chad: I don't care, 'cause you're my competition. You might not be in the same industry, but you're still a competitor for great talent. So guess what? I love it. You do you. I'm going to do me, and I'm going to get the best talent through these programs. Joel: Yeah. It's amazing to me that we're calling something like this a racist initiative, trying to bring more people into the fold of corporate America. Chad: Reverse discrimination. Are you fucking kidding me? Joel: Yeah, it's weird. It's a surreal world that we live in. Good on Mark Cuban. Good on, Mark Cuban. When we sat down with Torin Ellis a few years ago and we asked him, hey, what can two white guys do to help the cause? And his comment was, Speak up. Put yourself out there. Defend the efforts and take on people that will attack it. So good on Cuban being one of the more high profile people to take on Elon Musk and anyone else, but... Chad: He gets it. Joel: He totally gets it. It's not about quotas and people aren't qualified, it's about expanding the net and getting more people into the fold. And he really has a great way of clarifying what the issue is. Look, the pendulum swung way on one way. Black lives Matter, Me Too, George Floyd. The media embraced it, companies were like, we're good guys and gals, we're embracing this and we're hiring DEI and then when the economy did its thing and people stopped paying attention and Ukraine... Americas attention and people's attention went away from that. And as a result, corporate America has as well. You and I called this, Chad, when the Supreme Court nixed affirmative action, we said, this is going to slip into corporate America. This is going to destroy DEI programs and initiatives at companies. We talked about the Lead at Facebook, which had nothing to do with DEI. It had everything to do with the person. But I'm sure that has something to do with the whole effort. Joel: So I like where you're going with, this is going to be a marketplace issue. It's going to take people who buy stuff to say, we're not going to buy stuff from companies who don't embrace this. It's going to take people who work for these companies to say, we're not going to work for you anymore unless you embrace these values. And it's going to embrace some of market forces that say, Hey, companies who do, and I think we have a lot of evidence already, that companies that do embrace DEI are more successful from a bottom line initiative and perspective. Elon's off the reservation example of this. I don't know if he's the normal case study, but the more companies that have the Mark Cubans that embrace this, the more employees that want it, the more customers who are saying, we're going to buy from companies that embrace this, that's going to be the change, not because CNN is reporting it and not because global sentiment says, this is what we should focus on today, tomorrow it will be something else. This needs to be a foundational change. Chad: So back to back outcomes. I'm much closer to this than most people are, not because I'm doing it, I was a veteran, I built veteran hiring programs. I understand a lot of the window dressing and bullshit that happened there. Watching Julie do this on a daily basis and understanding that companies that they're working with and they're building programs with, they're getting better retention than their "Normal, run-of-the-mill employees." These are things that, we were talking about job hopping earlier and we talked about trust earlier. You know who really trusts an organization? One that gives them a fucking chance that's never been given a chance before. One who lays it out on the line and says, hey, look, you're going to train, you're going to work, you're going to be this. We want to stand behind you and do this. That's how you build loyalty and trust. Joel: Yeah. Chad: These types of programs are the bedrock of being able to find new talent and get them trained up and keeping them for much longer, which does what? It gives you a solid firm foundation of great talent. And if you don't have that, you're not having the revenues that you want to see. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I fear it's only going to get worse. And the whole ESG movement taking a hit just gets combined with all this. But going from one injustice to possibly another, let's talk about minimum wage. Effective January 1st of '24. The minimum hourly wage will increase from $15-$16 in New York City and Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester counties and from $14-$15 per hour for the rest of the state. Meanwhile, the minimum wage in California is now $16 an hour for all employers. Later this year, fast food restaurant employees will get $20 per hour and health care facility employees will make up to $23 an hour. Chad, what are your thoughts on New York and California's initiatives? Chad: Well, I think... We talked about this, we have seen stagnant wage increases, stagnant wage levels over the years. And the market hasn't fixed it. We have got to do a couple of different things. Yes, the market will drive certain areas like tech. But it doesn't drive everything. So we actually have to have governing bodies and forces that help to ensure that we don't push more people into poverty. That's the big key. And that we're not making people shit, work more than one full time job just so that they can put a roof over their family's heads. So at the end of the day, this is about ensuring that our neighbors, the people that we live with, the people that we share communities with are taken care of. We've lost that. We've been focusing on rugged individualism ourselves. What can we do for ourselves instead of the community? Chad: And that's where a lot of the trust has been lost, unfortunately. So is there going to be a shock factor with some companies who might have to go out of business or they might have to change how they do business to be able to work with these new wages? Yes. And I'll give you a great example. Just in Paris, we were in this hotel called CitizenM and it had literally bare bone staff. You go into... You go in, you register yourself, you make your own key. You go to the bar. You want to order food? Well, guess what? You got to go stand in line, and Europe is famous for queues, so everybody's fine with a queue. They go stand in line, they order their food, they get a little buzzer like you do, the thing lights up, you go get your food, you eat wherever you're at. They are looking at trying to create an entirely different environment. Maybe you like it, maybe you don't. If you don't like it, then you don't stay there. But companies are going to have to be innovative. To try to think that companies have to do the same thing for decades and decades and decades and continue to grow. That's madness. That will not happen. Hopefully, this will jar some companies, but it will also sink some companies. Joel: Yeah. In case you missed it, the federal minimum wage in America since 2009... Chad: Still. Joel: Is $7.25 an hour. [laughter] Chad: Ridiculous. Joel: No matter how you feel about it, you could probably agree it's maybe time that we increase it from 7.25 an hour from 15 years ago. Look, there's an ongoing narrative in America that Texas, Florida, Carolina's Southwest, everyone is leaving New York, California, Chicago, the bigger traditional cities you might call blue cities to these States, largely because of opportunity, low taxes, et cetera. What I'm going to find interesting is, will there be a reverse migration by people who would rather make $20 than $10 an hour and do the math and say, wow, if I make twice as what I'm making now, my standard of living, my kids, education, my health care improves. So I'm going to leave Texas, and this is an example and I'll move to California because I know I can get twice as much as I'm getting now. And do businesses coincide with that and say, well, we need to open up more restaurants and stores and shops in California or stay open because people are making more. And by that reality, they're spending more because they have more revenue and income. Joel: So long term, this is a really interesting strategy, I'm not sure if they're doing this on purpose, to reverse migration back to cities where workers know that I'm going to make twice as much, if not more per hour, if I leave this general vicinity. I'm looking at this as sort of a reverse strategy by bigger states to stick it to the states that have grown population over the last couple of years. Back to your comment about automation, this is largely going to be a race to how quickly can we automate and get rid of people? I mentioned Wendy's at the top of the show, automating the drive through, you mentioned the hotel in Europe. Companies are going to race to automate and have fewer people working. Now, hopefully there'll be more enough jobs to cover the people that are out of work from those businesses. Joel: The other thing I see happening in some of these states, at least, is going to be taxation of the technology. There's going to be a push at some point where the workers and voters say, look, we're losing jobs and everything to these robots, this automation, do something about it, Mr. And Mrs. Politician. And the reaction to that is going to be we need to tax or get something out of the companies that are squeezing out people from their businesses. It'll be a really interesting future. Immigration plays into this as well, which is a big issue here in the States. But yeah, it's a race to automation and how politics is going to react to people losing jobs if they do. The counter argument is there'll be more jobs than ever with more technology. There'll be more GPT apps that need customer service reps and need salespeople. Joel: And so we'll see what happens. But it's a dance that I enjoy watching and I think we enjoy talking about. But good on the people who are getting more money. Look, I think both of us have fought for a national $25 an hour, maybe some exceptions for small small businesses. But there's no reason that Domino's, Papa John's, Subway's, McDonald's can't pay those wages. People will pay an extra dollar for the Big Mac, especially if it's a double Big Mac, Chad, in the future and help pay some of those salaries. Chad: Big Mac should be followed by a beer. So let's just hit that one up. Joel: Let's take a break and we'll talk about beer. Joel: It's good to be back, man. Fast food, beer. This is good stuff. There's no Onlyfans in this episode though, I'm a little sad about that. Chad: Wow. We going to have to make up for that. Joel: All right. So it's dry January. Let's talk about beer. Miller Lite is introducing beer mints for the month, allowing beer lovers to, "Enjoy the taste of Miller Lite," I don't know about that, without consuming alcohol and adding the mints offer afresh mint flavor initially, followed by the subtle taste of Miller Lite. When you chew the mint available for a limited time, thank God, each tin includes 40 mints and costs $5. Meanwhile, Bud Light on the other light spectrum has launched a new ad campaign featuring NFL royalty Peyton Manning and the Dallas Cowboys running back Emmett Smith. Chad, what are your thoughts on the current state of beer? Chad: I think nobody enjoys the taste of Miller Lite, first and foremost, they're just doing it because they want a cheap beer. So buying mints to be... I think it's funny. That's really funny. And if you're going to give them away for free, then maybe, but I'm not buying that shit for God's sakes. And then on the Miller, on the Bud Light, on the Bud Light side of the house, hello, same as it ever was. Go back to what you know. What do you know? You know football, you know who your core audience is. And that's what they're going back to. I still don't disagree with they're looking to try to hit different markets at different promotions and different times. I think they should continue to do that. They should not apologize for doing that. They should just fucking do it. Chad: And then they should run these types of campaigns during football season. You've got Peyton Manning, you got Emmett Smith. People know who they are if you're in that demographic. That's the key. And also as human beings, we need to quit being such bitches about all the ooh, it's got a rainbow bottle. Who cares? It's the same shit in the bottle. It doesn't matter. And if that offends you, then you've got a problem yourself. It has nothing to do with the beer. So anyway... Joel: Everyone has the right to drink shitty beer, Chad. Everyone should have the right to drink shitty beer. Chad: Yeah. Well, hopefully the people that are in New York and California can afford something better than fucking Miller Lite. Joel: I bring Seinfeld into this show all the time. There's an episode of Seinfeld where he buys 1,000 packs of this Chinese gum, they sit around and they chew gum and Kramer's like oh, let's sit around and chew gum. Can't you see guys watching the NFL playoffs in January with a tin of Miller Lite mints saying, "Hey, man, pass me a mint." And then passing around the mint and they're all eating mints, watching football, celebrating dry January. This is a great marketing ploy, but this is not going to take off. People have mints to get rid of the beer breath that they have before they go to see their wives or girlfriends. Joel: As far as the Peyton Manning, I hate this ad. I'm not buying that Peyton Manning is drinking Bud Light. Peyton Manning is part owner of a luxury Tennessee whiskey that I can buy. This is like Tom Brady doing ads for Hertz. Motherfucking Tom Brady is not renting a car at Hertz. Give me a fucking break. I want to see the old timey Bud Light beer commercials with Rodney Dangerfield and like Bubba Smith and Larry Csonka and those... Let's see some real blue collar, lunch pail guys that play football. Let's see the linemen. Let's see the linebackers. Let's see those dudes. I want to see those dudes drinking Bud Light. Chad: The guys who still make millions of dollars, are you kidding me? [laughter] Joel: But I know we're not going back to the Swedish bikini team. I know that those days are over, but we can go back to old comedians. Let's see Bill Burr and Dave Chappelle in a beer ad. That's what I want to see. Chad: Bill Burr I can see. Joel: I'm not buying it, Chad, but we have an announcement here, Chad. Chad: Not mints. Not mints. Joel: And in honor of this block here, Chad & Cheese are now officially marketing old style beer. Yes, since 1902, old style has been refreshing Americans all over. So everyone, old style Chad and cheese. What's better than that? The next time you listen to the podcast or watch it on YouTube, that's right, we're on YouTube now. Kick back with a good cold, old style and live life at its fullest. Welcome back to America, Chad. Cheers, my friend. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't tuck away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

With an upcoming annual conference, Lieven's been really busy, but he found some time for a chat with all the news coming out of Europe lately. First up, Stepstone is touting its best year ever, but at least one co-host if calling for peak Stepstone, meaning it's call downhill from here. Another reason for pessimism is the entry of Google for Jobs in Stepstone's backyard: Germany. It's going to be interesting, and maybe Appcast, Stepstone's shiny new toy, can save the day? We discuss. And how about a little Buy-or-Sell, reviewing startups Demando, JobCannon, and Bubty (no, it's not a new techno band out of Finland). Then we roll a grenade down the hall and give you Lieven's predictions for 2024 (spoiler alert: Goodbye SEO). TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. [music] Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Three guys who will never get admitted in to NATO. What's up boys and girls? You are listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe. I'm your co-host Joel Davos Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad I'm going Demando Sowash. Lieven: And I'm Lieven organizing congresses since 1976 Van Nieuwenhuyze. [laughter] Joel: And on this episode, Google for Jobs comes for Europe's biggest economy, Stepstone's best year ever and a little buy or sell. Let's do this. SFX: Emotional damage. Joel: Lieven, where have you been? Lieven: Ah, I've been working. Working. Joel: What? I thought it was a European vacation. One of those 18-week getaways to the Swiss Alps. But no you've been working. Huh? Chad: No, he was skiing. They were skiing in there. [laughter] Lieven: I was also in the Alps but we've been working actually on the congress. I wasn't lying about organizing congresses. I've been pretty busy organizing this one. Chad: Talk a little bit about it. We're gonna be in Amsterdam where we're in the center of everything. What's going on? Lieven: Well, this is already the fifth edition and you've been part, Joel, of three I think. And Chad was also there twice I think. Joel: Yep. Lieven: Yeah. So this is the fifth edition of the E-recruitment congress. And each year it's getting better. This time we're moving from Belgium to the Netherlands, to Amsterdam because my Dutch colleagues thinks it's where it's happening, so [laughter] we pretend to believe them. Joel: Holland, where it's cool if you're Belgian. Lieven: It's so cool to be Belgian, they love our voice. Anyways, anyways. E-recruitment congress, March 19th in Amsterdam at Muziekgebouw which is the most beautiful congress... It's not a congress location. Actually, it's a music hall, a very beautiful one. It's really impressive. Chad: Oh, nice. Lieven: Near the water. A beautiful scenery, close to the center and right next to the Amsterdam railway station, so if you... Chad: Perfect. Lieven: Come by plane or by... Yeah, it's really convenient. We have a great list of people. Also Hilke Schellmann will be... Chad: She was just on the show. Yes. Joel: There you go. There you go. Lieven: I was so busy trying to convince her to be at my show but then she was at yours. Okay, whatever. [laughter] But she'll be there and as you all know, she's written a great book, In The Algorithm. I ordered it at Amazon and I still didn't get it but I'm sure it's on its way. I should have ordered it at Amazon Belgium, not the Americas probably it takes some time there. But I've been hearing tons of good stuff about it. And what I find interesting is she's actually very... She's a critic voice about AI and jobs. And most people who are going to be talking about AI at the congress will be very enthusiastic because they're going to try to sell the audience some of their products which are all AI based of course. Chad: Imagine that. Lieven: She's probably... Yeah. She will be the more critical kind of voice which I like. Joel: She'll be a cold bucket of water for some of those folks. Lieven: I'm sure. I'm sure. [laughter] Chad: She's an investigative reporter, so she did her work. She did some digging and she found some things out. But I mean that's a good thing. That's why we have a free press, kids. Joel: The clothes can't get clean without the agitator. Right, Chad? [laughter] And Hilke is the agitator. Chad: That's what I'm talking about. Lieven: Yes. And I've been communicating with her for a few weeks now and I'm looking forward to meeting her. I haven't met her yet but looking forward to. We have lots of other people. Just check the website. It's E-recruitment congress. If you put it in Google, I'm sure we'll be on top. It should be, huh? Joel: I think it's on our events page too if you're at chadcheese.com. Chad: It is. /events. Joel: And a coupon code may be coming soon. Lieven: Yes. I was just going to mention it. If you happen to stumble upon the Chad and Cheese page, you might find entry codes which gives you access to the congress for 50%. Chad: What! Joel: Whoa! That's a deep discount. Lieven: That's a deal. I know, I know. We only have 750 places and it'll be sold out, so don't wait. Joel: Can I get Belgian beer in Holland, Lieven? 'Cause if I can't then that's a problem. Lieven: We'll bring it. We'll bring it. Joel: I can't drink Amstel Lite for a week. I just can't. I can't bring myself. Lieven: No, of course not. Or Heineken. Chad: Nobody wants Heineken. Come on. Joel: Can't do that. Chad: No, no, no, no. No. Joel: Can't do that. Lieven: The best Belgian beer we can find in large amounts... Chad: Barrels. Barrels. Barrels of beer. Joel: That's what I'm talking about. We're gonna have the college refrigerator behind our table where we're in the cheap seats there at the congress. Looking forward to it. Looking forward to it. All right. Let's get to a little business. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad: My shout out this week goes to Carrefour, one of France's biggest supermarket chains who will stop selling Pepsi products in their latest clash between retailers and their suppliers over inflated prices. The move marks an escalation in Carrefour's attempts to pressure some of the world's biggest consumer goods companies to cut their prices after hiking. It seems that greedflation is being combated with a new, what they call... Joel would know this, shrinkflation campaign. Joel: What? Chad: Where grocery stores are slapping warnings on product ranging from lint chocolates to Lipton iced tea advertising customers that say they have shrunk the size of the product but they are still charging more even though the raw materials cost less. That's right. So vive la France. Vive la révolution and shout out to Carrefour. Joel: All right, guys. I have a bit of a somber, sad shout out today. Chad: Don't be a wet towel. Joel: Jerome Armbruster... Sorry, no relation to Max. President of French-based recruitment group, HelloWork passed away last Thursday I believe. 53-years-old, married and a father of one was cycling when he was hit by a car which then drove away. Chad: Wow. Joel: The driver of the car apparently was apprehended and will face the justice system. But our hearts go out to Jerome and his family and the employees at HelloWork. So, somber shoutout. Tragedy does happen and it affects all of us in some ways. So again, hearts out to Jerome. Chad: Cycling is dangerous, kids. Make sure you're wearing that helmet. Make sure you've got all the reflective gear. A friend of mine actually was on a team that cycled over 750 miles. There were six of them on the team, they all at least got hit once by a car. At least once by a car. Joel: Geez. Chad: Be careful out there, kids. Be careful. Joel: And you think with the Tour de France that drivers would be more aware of cyclists in the country but... Chad: Apparently you haven't been driving in Europe very often. Joel: Yeah. I don't do a lot of bike riding, I'm sure that surprises you. Chad: Well, you'll see a lot of those in Amsterdam. [music] Chad: Topics Joel: I'll be lucky if I get some walking in with some wooden shoes. But other than that, not a lot of exercise for me. All right. Let's talk about Stepstone. Chad: What? Joel: They apparently experienced their best year ever in revenue back in 2023, surpassing the $1 billion mark that they hit in 2022. Despite that, CEO Sebastian Dettmers said that the long-planned initial public offering is being deferred due to current market conditions stating that the company is not in a hurry. In case you missed it, Stepstone is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Axel or 'Akwell' if you're an Eddie Murphy fan, Springer Group and operates in more than 40 job boards internationally as well as Programmatic Powerhouse, Appcast. Chad, your thoughts on Stepstone's best year ever. Chad: So all of this is obviously encompassing the Appcast money, right? Joel: Yeah, I would assume so. Chad: Okay. So one thing... I'm waiting for this to happen. I'm waiting for them to actually kick Sebastian to the curb. They rebrand, they flip it and Appcast becomes the parent company and they put Chris Forman into that position because Appcast is the future of this company. Stepstone is not the future of this company. As soon as 'Akwell' Springer understands that, I think it's gonna be fairly simple. But we've talked about this on several occasions. Is a job board going to be the future of the industry? No. Will it be, I don't know, AI and targeting and branding or recruitment marketing? I wanna see the switch, Appcast becomes the big dog and Stepstone goes where they should be, which is underneath the big dog. Joel: Yes. The 40 job boards are not the future unless you believe a franchise of frozen yogurt shops is the future of technology. No. [laughter] SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: The job board crusaders are gonna be mad about that comment. Look, they had a layoff of about 5% in 2020... Chad: Layoffs? Joel: In November, which I'm sure helped their end of year revenue number. But they got some competition coming. I agree, Appcast is the future. I don't think there's a chance they leave the Stepstone brand and Lieven can talk to this 'cause he's in Europe, Stepstone is still a big swing and you know what? In Europe, so I don't see them flipping to Appcast which no one knows... Chad: In Germany. Joel: Except the American guys for the European Podcast. Indeed is now the number one site in Germany. LinkedIn is now the number three site I believe in Germany. It's the number one site in Spain. It's coming really, really hard. And our next story will prove that Google is... Yeah, I said coming hard, Sowash. Everyone's coming hard in Europe but more than that, I don't know if we've seen peak Stepstone. You'll remember that the music industry had its best year right around Napster time. You see a lot of these companies, you saw Monster hit peak Monster right around the time Indeed started taking big chunks out of it. So I would be concerned if I'm at Stepstone that we might be at peak Stepstone. It may be just downhill from here. Joel: I think the IPO question is really interesting. I made in my prediction show, our prediction show that there would be no IPOs in 2024. I was concerned that Stepstone might be the one... Them or Personio, I thought there might be a European wild card. I don't think an IPO is gonna happen this year because you look at what's going on in Europe, Germany's in recession, UK's potentially gonna be in recession. Like it's probably not a great time to go public, so to wait a year is gonna be interesting and in that year's time, Indeed, LinkedIn and probably Google are gonna continue to take chunks out of that market share. I think we may have hit peak Stepstone. Lieven: My mother used to tell me, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So I should shut up. But I never listened to her. Concerning the IPO, there is a recession, it's not even a big one, I think we're already... It's not even a real recession, it's just a slowing down the economy in most cases. Germany had a recession but recessions normally take 12, maybe 18 months max and by the end of this year everything will be behind us or something really weird, a black swan should happen. But normally, it will be behind us. And I'm sure Stepstone by then will have thought about something new as an excuse not to do the IPO because they know it'll not succeed and if you try it once and you screw up, you can't do it again. Chad: Nope. Lieven: Because people will never ever trust you again. Joel: Unless Elon buys you, then you can do a do-over. But I don't see that happening either. Chad: No. Lieven: Not even Elon will buy Stepstone. Chad: No. Well, and again I mean the IPO, if you have Appcast as the big boy and you're going to IPO, you're talking about more advanced technologies than a job board. This is just prepping. To be able to get ready for IPO you've gotta get a narrative pulled together and the narrative of a job board leading an IPO, I'm sorry, go ahead do it. Lieven: 15 years ago they should have tried, not now. No but really. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They need to buy CareerBuilder and Monster on a 2-for-1 BOGO deal... Chad: Don't do it. Don't do it. Joel: And then put in AppCast jobs exclusively on those boards and then maybe they can go IPO on Wall Street. Chad: And then rename the company as Tech Debt Inc. Joel: Monster Cast Board Builder. Chad: Tech Debt Inc. Lieven: So if you're interested in outdated technology and an outdated business model then you should invest. Chad: No, thanks. Joel: Yeah. Chad: No. Joel: No, not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. SFX: Europe has a bunch of countries in it. Joel: All right. Well, like we said, Stepstone cannot rest because here come the Americans. I talked about Indeed and LinkedIn making big cuts into their market share. Well, Google is apparently rolling out Google for Jobs in Germany, Europe's largest economy following previous testing in Austria back in 2023. This comes on the heels of Indeed and LinkedIn, both of which are based in the US gaining ground in Germany and more broadly all across Europe in the past year with the latter overtaking new work-owned, Zing. Remember Zing, everybody? We talked about them in Germany last year to take the number three position. Hat tip to Alexander Churkovski for his fine in the wild there that he shared on LinkedIn. Chad, your thoughts on Google for Jobs opening up in Germany? Chad: Yeah. I mean it's a grind. I mean we just talked about Stepstone. It's old tech. They need something new because when you have the Indeeds of the world that literally they're just grinding, they're grinding every year and they're gaining more market share. LinkedIn, grinding, gaining more market share and then you have fucking Google, are you kidding me? I mean you've got to be able to differentiate yourself and you can't do that by going head-to-head with a Google, LinkedIn and Indeed. That's why again it just makes more sense, you're proving me right with all of this stuff. They've got to go pure AppCast and they got to do it quick. Joel: So, job postings it's largely a race to the bottom in profitability and these big companies that don't... Let's be honest, don't make their living on job postings are coming in and they have AI that you don't have, they have brand awareness that you don't have, they have reach that you don't have... Chad: Scale. Joel: It's very challenging. I mean think about it. It's Indeed, it's Stepstone, it's LinkedIn, it'll be Google soon. Zing is in there. Zing doesn't know what the hell... They don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Chad: They'll be out soon. Joel: So are you gonna compete with Google? Good luck with that. I mean, Lieven can speak to Google's brand awareness and power in Europe. I'm sure it's similar to that in the US. But look, Germany has... They're in a recession. I know it's a small one. It's an itty bitty recession. But recession means people are looking for jobs. And it makes sense if you're going to launch some job offerings, if you're Google, like do it when people are more likely to look for jobs. And I guarantee you Google has data that's saying trends in Germany are going up based on job searches. So maybe now it's a good time to do that. I also think it's really smart for Google to do this because of all the EU regulations and political issues that they have. Joel: Similar to how TikTok is really good about showing TikTok ads and how great TikTok is to help like old people commute with each other and like ministers to build their churches, that's really good to run during the GOP debates and political news that will help you build your brand. It's good for Google to go in front of EU regulators and say we're helping people get jobs. We're helping companies grow in Europe because of our Google for Jobs offering. I don't know if that'll be the spin that they put on it but I think it would be smart for them to do so. Overall, again I think we're at peak Stepstone and Google coming to town only underscores the fact that Stepstone has some serious problems in their future. Lieven: I think you said it all. And if Stepstone has a future because you were talking about their future, if they have a future I won't be in it. No future for Stepstone. No, no but I think Google for Jobs, Indeed, they're going to own Stepstone. They're still growing. We see the figures here. We measure everything. It's going more slow than I expected. I thought there would have been... The growth would have been faster but they are steadily growing. Joel: The Google growth? Lieven: Yeah. Joel: You thought it would be faster? Lieven: Yeah. I thought Google for Jobs would be more dominating faster. But it took them some time. And I'm not sure when did they launch here, four years ago, five maybe? Something like that. And we have one out of four candidates comes through Google for Jobs right now. What you have to imagine, we hired over 100,000 people last year. Chad: Wow. Lieven: So that's quite a lot. Chad: Yeah. 25% is... Lieven: Yeah. And it's not for all companies. It's like the temping companies. So for the high end search and selection agencies is different. That's mostly calling on it. It's like those people are passive job seekers. But for the active job seekers, Google for Jobs is great. Joel: Yeah. So currently they're in 40 countries. So in the, what? Seven, eight years or whatever that they've been launched, that's a pretty slow roll. I expect that it'll quicken as they roll more and more countries out. Lieven: Yeah, I guess so. Chad: But they never really launched anything. They started to just throw some UI together, they've been beta testing, et cetera, et cetera. Let's take a look at Indeed, a company that was focused and they have tried to penetrate these markets. And in many of these European markets they are still not number one, right? So it's taken Indeed this long, which this is their expertise to actually try to climb that ladder. Google, they haven't even tried yet. So when they start trying, I think we are gonna see a big dip, let's just say that in the StepStones and the Indeeds of the world. Lieven: And I always think Google should be able to do better, because they know everything about every user. Every search I've ever done has been recorded somewhere. I'm sure... They basically invented scraping. So I'm sure they've scraped my LinkedIn profile. When I log in using Google, my Google login on all kinds of websites, they know it. So they know everything about me, they have like a file, it's enormous. And they should be able to offer me the one job that I'm looking for. They know everything about me. So their matching is, to be honest, it's pretty basic right now. They could do so much better and I think they will do. The moment they take the time to improve their stuff, it'll be great. And then Stepstone is a goner. Chad: Soon as they unleash DeepMind into it, yeah. Joel: And let's be fair, like Google has a lot of legal issues in Europe. So the fact that they're moving slowly may not... Shouldn't be that big of a surprise to us. And by the way, Monster is still a thing in Europe, so Europe also is a little slow to accept new things like Google for Jobs. Lieven: Yeah. Monster, I'd prefer... I wouldn't call it still a thing. [laughter] The name still exists, but if I ask my students Monster, they say that's an energy drink. They don't know about job boards. Joel: It's the number five site in Germany, sort of like the Utz potato chip. You know, it's still around, but you only see it in a few different convenience stores. Lieven: Yeah. Chad: They're called crisps, Cheeseman. Joel: Yeah. They're called crisps. Chad: They're called crisps. Yeah. Lieven: Here, they don't even have a sales team left. They used to have a sales team in Belgium. Joel: Really? Lieven: They closed down the offices, they just left. And I think the last one put the lights out and then they were gone. [laughter] Joel: Well, speaking of lights out, let's close this topic and when we get back, we'll talk a little buy or sell. SFX: Europe has a bunch of countries in it. Joel: All right, boys. Who's up for a little buy or sell? I know... Chad: Let's do it. Joel: I sure am. All right. You know... You all know how it works. We talk about three companies that have recently gotten money and each of us will buy or sell that company. Here we go. All right. Number one, we have JobCannon. People in the US that have seen that commercial will know what I'm talking about. [laughter] UK's JobCannon has secured a $500,000 pre-seed investment. JobCannon employs AI aiming to streamline job searches and talent acquisition, focusing on assessments to validate candidates' skill, hoping to reduce hiring time and provide more efficient matches between job seekers and employers. The funding will support improving soft skills testing, incorporating hard skills tests, and collaborating with PhD level specialists for test enhancements. Chad, are you buy or sell on JobCannon? Chad: JobCannon seems to be all over the place. For example, on the site I search for data engineer jobs, they're only 12, which I understand they're very early in the game, but those jobs are from the UK, Ukraine, Cyprus, Bulgaria, and France. That's a big problem because they are still very small. So they need to pick a region for marketing and sales focus, because half a million in seed funding, that's gonna be gone before you know it. Okay? So plus, are they a tech oriented job site or general? General won't work. There's already too much noise in the market. So they need to attack a vertical, become an expert in that vertical, and then expand services in that vertical or pick another industry that's close and start to slowly expand that way. I hope these guys, they do well, but unless they stop going all over the map with everything they're doing, they just aren't going to have a chance. They need to focus on footprint, they need to focus on discipline, and until they can get there, unfortunately, kids, it's gonna be a sell for me. Joel: So their website is a trip. I didn't know if it was a pitch for glamor shots 2.0, if they were selling sunglasses and eyewear or they were selling like video game software. It's everyone's AI, everyone's wearing sunglasses. I wasn't really sure what they were aiming for with the site. I'm a real stickler for copyright dates if you're a company and they're still copyrighted 2023, so they need to fix that. That's a little thing of mine that I'm finicky about. Look, they are focused on tech right now although they're talking about expanding it to all industries or categories, which Chad, to your point is gonna make it really, really tough. And I'm not sure developing in tech right now with as much layoffs that we're seeing in tech is a great target anyway. I'd focus on healthcare if they were doing that. Joel: Another hangup I have with them is that it's an amazing amount of work for job seekers to get into the system. I hate sites where it's like, do this long form test, do this, do like this thing when they can easily click over to Indeed or LinkedIn or wherever and easily apply to jobs. They don't have to go to the site that they've never heard of called JobCannon that may or may not have any customers that will find me on this site. So I can't imagine that they're getting the best of the best developers putting in their information on the site when it takes so long to do that. And then the last strike for me was they really, really pound on their AI capabilities. Okay. Pound on your AI capabilities, but you know what, your competition has a lot bigger ammunition in that AI boat. So to me, this company really felt like a knife in a gunfight. So just like Chad, this is a sell on JobCannon. Lieven: Yeah. JobCannon. Given the fact this was founded by two Ukrainians and two Israelians, I see where they got the name from. Can imagine the cannons being top of mind. Chad: That escalated quickly. Lieven: They focus on assessment, which is nothing new. And I had the same feeling when looking at their sight as, was it Joel who said it or was it Chad? Joel: Glamor shots, selling sunglasses. Yeah. Lieven: The glamor. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed, yeah. [laughter] So it's also like this looks like something my kids could make in a weekend, but... Okay, he's very smart, I have to admit he's a very smart kid, but still in a weekend. Yeah. Anyways, anyways, so, sell. Joel: All right. Next up we have Netherlands-based Bubty. They've secured $1.9 million in seed funding. The platform utilizes AI driven technology, allowing companies to move away from traditional third party marketplaces and establish internal talent pools for managing freelancers. Claiming 240% growth in ARR over two years, the funding will support Bubty's expansion into, you guessed it, the US of A. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Bubty? Chad: 240% growth of nothing is not a lot. Let's go with a quote here, "Bubty lets companies move away from traditional third-party marketplaces and build their own internal private talent pools." Okay, let's get something straight here, Bubty. Right out of the gate, some of the biggest hiring companies in the world spend hundreds of millions of dollars in recruitment marketing to amass huge candidate databases already, and then they do nothing with them, and that's on the full-time employment side of the house, right? So, Bubty believes those companies are ready for the contractor side of the equation. No, they're not. They're not even fucking close, guys. You're selling to the wrong market, which means until they align their product with adoption and the needs of the market, this is an easy, easy, easy sell. SFX: No. God, please, no. Joel: All right. I feel a little differently about Bubty. By the way, any site that can make me think of busty is always a good start for any site. Chad: Anything that aligns with PornHub is good for Joel. Joel: Yeah, Chipotle and busts are pretty much a winner for my buy or sell ratings. [laughter] I understand this as like a white labeled Upwork or Fiverr, where you have your own private label co-branded or branded solution, you have your application's contract workers, you can manage them from inside your platform instead of Upwork or Fiverr. I like that they have their Trustpilot rating right on their site. I don't know how anyone else feels about that, but I like having some sort of a confirmation that they're a legitimate company. They have an office in New York City, so at least they have some presence. It may be a virtual office for all I know, but who cares? They're in America already, which I think is gonna be much more amenable market to them going forward. And they have a really strong integration strategy. They're integrated with pretty much everybody that you could think of that would matter. So for me, I'm gonna go the other way on this. I think Bubty is a buy. SFX: Oh, my God, I love Chipotle. Chipotle is my life. Chad: It's named Bubty. [laughter] Joel: All right, Lieven, you're the tiebreaker. Lieven: Bubty. I totally agree, if you start from scratch, 240% gain means nothing. I mean, twice nothing still is nothing. But I kind of like the industry. I mean, freelance platforms, one out of two people almost globally spoken is a freelancer. I agree, it will only grow. In some industries however, freelancers are... The wages are eroding, the salaries because of mostly AI. And that's something you have to take into account because most of those platforms, their business model is they take a small amount of the fees getting paid but if the fees are going down because of AI, then you get less. But I do believe freelance will keep on growing, and definitely in most industries, it will be a decent business. But the whole Bubty thing, it couldn't charm me. So, I think it'll be a sell. SFX: No. God, please, no. Joel: That's a sell from Lieven. All right, guys, here we go. Chad: You get Bubty. Joel: Here we go. I got Bubty'ed. I got Bubty'ed. All right. Chad's favorite name in the startup competition is Demando. All right, the Stockholm based company has raised about 700 to 15,000 US dollars. Demando focuses on passive recruitment, offering a platform that anonymizes candidates allowing employers to identify and contact them based on skills and experience. Demando claims to have over 50,000 registered candidates saying this indicates a demand for an alternative to traditional job changing methods. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Demando? Chad: So last week, Indeed announcing their move into the tech sector provided market validation for the talent tech vendors like Demando and our friends over at Hackajob. Indeed has a broad reach and they can see what industries are ripe for the picking. And they chose the tech industry. So they chose that tech industry because they know there's fucking cash there, which is a very good sign for vendors like Demando. I see these types of vendors getting acquired by staffing companies and involving the staffing model to bring a more demand projects to the tech sector. Vendors like Demando could conquer their respective regions, and in this case, really focusing on the Nordics and then get acquired by, oh, I don't know, little companies like the House of HR. I'm incredibly bullish on evolution that's happening in this sector, which is why I'm going Demando. This is a buy. [music] Joel: Wow. Man, I feel about this company similar to how I felt about Ada. I don't know if you guys remember Ada or not. Paul Forster... Lieven: Yeah. Joel: Indeed co-founder, invested in them and they were... Chad: Great marketing and that was about it. Joel: And they were acquired. Yeah. You, you, you, Ada, no. So they got acquired, but we don't know how much for, and what... It was basically a job board for the Gen Zs. Like something to make them feel cool, like this isn't your daddy's job board. To me, this is the same thing. It's a job board with a different shade of lipstick on it. They're trying to appeal to the youngins. I think the youngins are gonna go where the jobs are, not just where somebody riding a skateboard on Venice Beach is on the homepage. Like I think content is what's gonna win. And I don't think these guys have it. They'll probably get acquired by somebody for an undisclosed amount. So if that's success, then have at it. But as far as I'm concerned, that is a big no for me. This one is a sell. No Demando for you. SFX: No. God, please, no. Lieven: Nah, I feel kind of different. They focus on passive candidates, which is mostly LinkedIn's playing garden. So normally I would say, huh, good luck. They launched in 2015 and they still exist, so they must be doing something right. Maybe they just don't pay their people that much. I'm a strong believer in the importance of reaching out to passive job seekers, and if they have something interesting to offer, I might give it a look. The Nordics are an interesting region. But the reason why I will definitely buy them is because Schibsted is a very old and a very big media group, so they have tons of advertising power. And if they... If some company can keep this alive and make it even grow, it's a company like Schibsted. And those local job sites, they only survive if they have a big newspaper group behind them. And in this case Schibsted's investing, yeah, it's a buy. [music] Joel: And that's why we have Lieven on the show for that European perspective. All right, everybody, that is another round of, you guessed it, buy or sell. When we get back, Lieven's 2024 predictions. Lieven: Oh, I thought you were never going to ask. [music] Joel: All right, Lieven, listeners know that Chad and I have given our predictions for 2024, but our European listeners want to know what you think about 2024 on the prediction side of the house. On your first one, apparently you have four, unless another one has come up since we've been in the green room, but let's go to number one here. Lieven: Okay. I'm going to take my time for the predictions. [music] Lieven: Okay. For the first time, we will see the impact AI has on the study choices of young people. Job security or the lack of job security will steer study choices, and I feel blue collar educations are gaining in popularity. And it's actually happening already. For the first time in years, the nurses students or the subscriptions for those students' education, whatever, is growing. It was going down for quite some time. Now it's growing and it's not because of COVID... [foreign language] Lieven: It's because of job security. So I think AI will have an impact and this will have a big impact and we'll see it for the first time this year. Blue collar is gaining ground for the first time in centuries. Joel: I like it. I like it. By the way, you wouldn't believe the number of nursing students at my local strip club, but that's a different podcast altogether. Let's get to number two prediction for Lieven. Lieven: Okay. I think in 2024, companies will stop calling all their new AI assistants copilots because at some point they will realize it's getting confusing. It's an important one. No more copilots. Joel: Do you have a name that it will become or you're just like, no copilot? And that upsets Chad greatly 'cause he loves the term copilot. Chad: I do love copilot. Lieven: But everything is called copilot right now, it's so confusing. Chad: That's a good point. Lieven: Yeah. People are talking about copilot, but what copilot are they talking about? We are constantly arguing about stuff, which apparently is... Whatever. It's confusing. Stop it. Stop using copilot. Joel: I think they should change their name to Bubty. My Bubty is with me and ready to negotiate with you. All right, let's get to the number three prediction for Lieven. Lieven: I am sure that AI optimization is going to become a big thing this year. How to get your company mentioned in ChatGPT. And actually, it's difficult. I tried it already and like you have SEO companies, you'll have AI optimization companies and by 2041, HR will have discovered it was important, but this year marketing will jump on it. Joel: Yeah, no doubt. I know you listen to our weekly show, but the New York Times suing... Lieven: Oh, I don't. listen. Joel: Yeah, you never listen to the show. You don't even know who the hell we are. And so New York Times, OpenAI, who can use the content, who can plug it into their systems, is gonna be a big issue. I think there's a great opportunity professionally to be an agent for these content providers to... Lieven: Absolutely. Joel: To negotiate with all the AI solutions and get them the best price to access their content. I think that would be an interesting job for 2024, but that was not your prediction. Your prediction was? Lieven: People will actually use AI agencies to optimize their presence within AI. I'm going to give you an example. Recently, I needed a hotel in Amsterdam. So I checked, I asked ChatGPT, can you give me a hotel close to the airport, which has a great restaurant and a few other stuff. Enter. And it gave me a list with five hotels. And then I wondered why would that hotel be on top? It was a good choice. It was a good hotel and it had all the options I wanted. But then I thought, damn, some companies would be very happy to be on top on ChatGPT, and how can you manipulate this? And I started experimenting and it's not easy, but I think we can. Joel: SEO is so last decade. It's time for AIO. Lieven: Optimization. Joel: That's right. All right. Chad: AIO. Joel: Let's get to your fourth and final prediction. Lieven: Of course, something you will probably also predict it's Randstad once again won't find a buyer for Monster. And finally, they will sell the furniture and close everything down. [laughter] Chad: So don't you think that it's just about time that they just go ahead, call it quits and just shut it down. It just blows my... Joel: Sell it to Stepstone. Chad: It blows my mind that they're still allowing this anchor to hang around their neck and anybody else like Stepstone who wants to buy an anchor, like CareerBuilder or Monster, go ahead and do it. But why haven't they done this yet, Lieven? It's been an anchor. Lieven: I was told and maybe it was even in our show, I don't remember. Joel: Our show. Lieven: But it was the last CEO... Now it's van't Noordende, but he's a new one. But the last one, he was the one who actually wanted to buy Monster. And as long as he was present, they just couldn't close it down because then they would have to tell the CEO that his decision sucked. So they didn't dare to. And now with van't Noordende, he can clean up the ship and call it a day. Joel: I like it. Call him Lieven Domus, everybody. That is another episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe. We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? A podcast. The Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one, cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

We had employee referral software solution Real Links, and their CEO and co-founder Sam Davies, on Firing Squad four years ago. Chad gave them a rousing applause, while Cheese was a bit more tempered, giving them a gold clap. Needless to say, a lot has happened in the world since January 2020, so we thought a reunion would be apropos. When we last talked to Davies, they had just raised a little over a million bucks, employed nine people and were considering changing their domain from dot-io to a dot-com. So what's new? Ya' gotta listen to find out. Spoiler alert: LinkedIn has been as integral to their business as they thought it'd be. Visit www.reallinks.io for more. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Like Shark Tank, then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids. The Chad and Cheese podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Oh yeah. What's up kids? It's Sam the Butcher's favorite podcast, aka the Chad and Cheese podcast. I am your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Bobby to my Craig, Chad Sowash is in the house. And this is a reunion episode of The Firing Squad, and we have brought back Sam Davies, CEO and co-founder at Real Links. Sam, welcome back to the Firing Squad. Chad: Dude, nobody's gonna get that reference. Nobody's gonna get that reference. Sam the Butcher. Joel: And it's Sam Davies. Chad: Craig and Bobby. Joel: Oh yes. Sam is on the show. Chad: I'm just saying the reference. That's a great reference, but most of people aren't gonna get it. So let's tie that together. Joel: But I know that the Brady Bunch is Sam's favorite show growing up. Chad: There it is. Sam, have you ever watched the Brady Bunch? Sam Davies: I've gotta say no, sorry guys. Joel: Oh, come on. Really? But you know there's a show called The Brady Bunch? Sam Davies: I do. I've heard of the Brady Bunch. I haven't watched that yet. Chad: Sam the Butcher, that was good. Joel: There may or may not be a character named Sam the Butcher who brings home the meat to Alice, anyway that's... Sam Davies: Okay. Chad: Alice has always taken the meat. Joel: Just trust me when I say our audience for the most part gets the reference. So it's all good. It's all good. Anyway, welcome to the show, Sam. Before we get back to the pitch you gave us way back in the day and what the company's doing now, give us a little taste about you. What makes you tick, Sam? Sam Davies: Cool, thanks for doing this again. It's great to be here. So, I'm Sam Davies. I'm the founder and CEO of Real Links. I got into this business, I got a lot of stick for it last time, but after leaving corporate law, no stick this time. Good. But the good part of it was I got referred from one law firm to another and really got me thinking about sort of how you could do things differently. And then got ourselves into Real Links. And it has been one heck of a learning journey since. I don't think I have ever learned so much in my entire life as what I've been through in learning what this sector's about and how to adjust and pivot this platform. And super excited to talk to you about that today. Chad: Kids, just in case you didn't hear, back in January of 2020, yes, 2020. Sam came on the show and did Firing Squad and this is what we call Reunion Squad. We're gonna play the two minute pitch that he actually performed back then. And then we're gonna talk about what's changed, difference. Obviously we've been through a pandemic, there's been a lot of changes, but we'll talk about that. First and foremost, let's set it up. This is Sam's two-minute pitch from Firing Squad back in January of 2020. Play that beautiful bean footage. Sam Davies: Employee referrals are a great hiring solution. They lead to a 39% better retention rate and candidates who are 3-4 times more likely to be hired, to name just a few referral stats. The problem is that generally companies struggle to get more than 10% of annual hires through referrals. That's where our employee referral platform Real Links comes in. As you guys know, there are a few other players in the market, so I'm going to focus on what makes us different here. Our platform syncs an employee's connections on LinkedIn, email and Facebook, matches them to live vacancies and notifies HR teams and employees when a match is being made. Employees have huge networks, but it's too unmanageable and time consuming to search through them each time a new vacancy comes up. Our platform makes it manageable and supports diversity in the process as candidate data such as name, ethnicity, nationality and gender is anonymized in the HR view, removing any unconscious bias. Sam Davies: Ur referral methodology is another key differentiator. We use gamification and rewards. We don't take a one-size-fits-all approach. Each company is different, so we run focus groups to understand employee motivations and customize the gamification to meet their needs. It might be a raffle, it might be a point space leaderboard, but you don't know until you speak to the employees. This way, we're able to increase referral participation and longevity. We also boost participation by letting employees select whether a referral is a recommendation or an introduction. People generally only feel comfortable recommending 4-5 people as referrals, but we have big networks of contacts with relevant skills and experience. Introductions to those contacts are also valuable, allowing employees to identify what sort of referral it is, takes the stigma away from their needing to be recommendations and opens up the referral network. Addressing one of the other key reasons for low engagement, we keep employees updated during the referral journey. Employees no longer feel that their referrals end up in a black hole and there's no transparency. We're already working with a number of large organizations, including McKesson and Adecco. We white label the platform and do a two-way integration with ATSs for our clients. Find out more about us and our pilot offering at reallinks.io. Chad: Dude, I gotta say, after four years you seem so much calmer. Joel: Our listeners don't know that Sam hit the crack pipe before that episode of the Firing Squad. Sam Davies: I mean, the speed. There's, take a breath man. Take a breath. Joel: Chad, you did not speed that up, right? Chad, you did not speed that up in the editing. Yeah, that's real speed everybody. Chad: I did not speed that up. No, no, no. He was trying to slam a lot of information into two minutes, lemme tell you. Joel: How do you feel listening to that pitch here four years later? Sam Davies: Well, slightly embarrassed. The speed at which I went through that, I think I must've heard like that guys, you got a two-minute pitch. Anyway, a little bit embarrassed, but anyway, it's super interesting actually to listen back to it and actually think about forgetting for one second, how quickly I spoke or the laugh that we heard later on in the podcast, that I've also had to adjust. But actually how different the product is and it's sort of cool to look back and think about how things have changed so much. Joel: I got a few like sort of housekeeping things from our first, when we first interviewed you. Your URL is reallinks.io and you had mentioned maybe buying the dot-com, which still looks available. Any updates on that? Sam Davies: Yeah, look, the dot-io is still, it's performing well for us, if I'm honest with you, and that the people who own the dot-com are charging a ridiculous amount of money for it that's just not worthwhile given the traffic that we're seeing on the dot-io. Joel: So you're good with the i0, like we should not expect a dot-com announcement anytime soon. Also when we first spoke, you had nine employees. What are you up to now? Sam Davies: 15 of us. Yeah, it's been an interesting journey in that respect as well. Joel: All remote it sounds or mostly remote? Sam Davies: It's a combination. We've got some that are office-based in London, but we now hire particularly engineers from different areas of Europe. Yeah, it's a blend. Joel: Okay. And then the last one is you had raised roughly 1.4 million pounds when we last spoke. Sam Davies: Yep. Joel: According to CrunchBase, you have not raised any more money. Give us an update on the funding. Sam Davies: Sure. We have taken on a little bit, a strategic bump from an organization called Join Talent. They're an embedded talent solution, UK-based, got a really interesting client base. It's a combination of really cementing a strong partnership that would help us to scale, but also taking on a bit more money as well. But otherwise, our growth is fueled by the money we have coming in. Chad: Yeah. Talk a little bit about that. Because there are a lot of companies that are out there who just want to take cash, and they feel like that's going to propel them to the moon very quickly. You guys haven't done that, right? You've taken little bumps here and there, and I'm sure you've had an opportunity to take a hell of a lot more. Why have you made the decision to not take a lot of money? Sam Davies: Firstly, it's seeing sort of a path to revenue growth without it, and thinking about front and center of my mind is what that exit would likely be. And my view is, I'm not going to continue raising for vanity sake. And if I want to sell this platform in the next 2-3 years, unless I want to go on and become something much, much more, I need to think very cleverly about what money we take on and what that likely exit will be. Otherwise, the investors and myself are diluting ourselves for no good reason. That's basically the view, thinking about what exit we want and making sure that we get there in the strongest possible position. And what I mean by that is that we've all got a good amount of equity left, and we're all happy when we walk away. Chad: Amen. What have you learned over the last four years? That's a lot of tip. Over the last four years, what have you learned? What would have been the biggest learnings? Let's say top three, biggest learnings. Sam Davies: Well, biggest learning would be what I thought was the USP for our product, 100% was not the USP for our product. Chad: Okay. What's that? Sam Davies: Okay. When we, and quite rightly, looking back on it, I was critiqued quite heavily on the last podcast when I was talking about the fact that employees have the opportunity to connect their LinkedIn networks to the platform, and the platform would start matching them to live job vacancies. Way too much friction. Quicksand, I think, was the phrase that one of you used on the previous podcast. But that didn't necessarily actually end up being a problem in the sense that LinkedIn changed it, but it was way too much friction for employees. And ultimately, what we realized, to make this platform successful, we needed to solve employee engagement, fundamentally. It was an employee engagement problem that we needed to solve, whereas we were way too focused on ensuring the quality of the people that employees were eventually putting forward. But actually, we were asking way too much of them, and we needed to change that. Our USP has really shifted from a platform that was doing quite complicated bits around asking employees to connect their networks, to a platform that's all about activation. Sam Davies: How do we nail adoption? How do we activate and how do we amplify? And that shift has changed the way in which we've built our products and the way in which it works today, which I can elaborate on now if you want me to, or we can... Chad: Yeah, go ahead. No, hit it, man. I want to hear what's changed. Sam Davies: What we realized was we needed to really crack internal marketing automation. All very well having this clever matching piece that we've spoken about, but we needed to find a way of getting employees to easily share jobs with their networks. And what we realized to do that is we needed to go native. We needed to go native in the channels that employees are using on a day-to-day basis. Chad: Wait a minute. So LinkedIn wasn't really native. You're talking about... What do you mean by native? Help us out with that real quick. Sam Davies: Sure. Absolutely. When you're talking employee engagement, what we were asking employees to do previously was come to our platform. Come to the Real Links platform. On the Real links platform, that's where you're going to share your jobs. That's where you're going to share potentially content. You're going to look at your matches. You're going to get your updates. But everything required the employees coming to us, coming to the platform. I did so many focus groups with employees, the system fatigue, the numerous systems they've got to interact with on a daily basis. Sam Davies: They just don't want that. We started experimenting with the idea that, well, look, if we know our employee bases are using Slack, Teams, and email, why are we asking them to come to the Real Links platform? Why couldn't we get them doing those referral activities within those channels? We took a whole shift change and we instead focused in on building integrations with Slack, Teams, and email. It's been a game changer. Essentially, now as an employee, say you're participating in one of the referral campaigns, you receive a prompt on a Tuesday morning. Hey, Joel, we've got this job for you to refer with your network. You will be able to share that job directly from within Slack or within Teams or within email, depending on what you use. You wouldn't ever need to come to the Real Links platform. To give you an example of this, we work with HelloFresh, one of our clients now. We just ran a campaign with them. It was a three-week hiring drive campaign. 90% of the employees that participated never came to Real Links. They just clicked share, pushed out the content, pushed out the jobs directly within that channel. They got their gamification updates. Sam Davies: All of that functionality that we previously spoke about in terms of rewarding employees for the referral journey, shares, views, application, that all still exists, but they're getting those updates in the channel that they use, winning those raffles, winning those competitions in the channels that they use. We also came up with a much better way to address matching. That hasn't gone all together, but instead of asking people to do all of this friction-heavy stuff around connecting their networks. Sam Davies: Joel could receive a message on a Tuesday morning, and we're set for Tuesdays today and it would say, hey Joel, see if you've got any matches in your network. You click on the matches button, it's essentially pushing you directly to your LinkedIn. It's like a safe booty and such. So it's going to take Joel directly to his LinkedIn, to his first connections in the location where he's hiring with the job title, but excluding people at Joel's company. Sam Davies: So basically all of the risk element of are we messing with LinkedIn goes away 'cause you're just directing people to LinkedIn. One click, none of this friction-heavy stuff, and again, that's been a game changer. We see really, really good engagement with that matching functionality that we never saw with our old tool. Joel: In short, it's all about push and taking away the friction. Is that about right? Sam Davies: It's 100% right. And I was, if I look back at like the deals that we've won, like we say the likes of BT, likes of EY over this last period, it's all been because they're like, you mean that you can get our employees to do all of these referral options, but your platform could essentially be invisible. And I'm like, yeah, you can do everything in teams. And that's the excitement factor. That's where these companies are now like, yeah, we want a piece of this product because it makes so much more sense than what we were doing before. And again, it is those referral updates that I spoke about very quickly in that two-minute pitch, they're still happening but they're happening in Teams or in Slack or in email. Joel: One of the things I hear what falls down is engagement. So you're integrated, but to me, the rewards, whether it's cash or these little bets, like what have you learned in four years about what motivates employees to do this shit? Sam Davies: Really good point. So I think I spent, again, it was interesting telling you all about how you got to go and do focus groups. Imagine me going to EY and saying, "Hey, to implement this, we're going to run focus groups across your whole organization." Chad: So that went well. Yeah, no. Sam Davies: Sure, Sam, come back to me. No, so I think the point that still stands from what I said before was employees want different things. So what we now have is global reward shops, essentially. So if you were to win a raffle or a points-based leaderboard, most of our clients have it set up so you take tokens and then you spend it on what you want. For some employees, that might still be cash. For some employees, that might be like a holiday abroad. For some employees, that might be we work with a gaming company. They spend a lot of their stuff on like one of the gaming sort of voucher pieces that's included in there. We simply don't know. And employees are too broad and too varied for us to even try and work that out with as many focus groups as you want. Sam Davies: So actually streamlining it so they can choose what they want has been the big development for us. And that's working. The other thing, just quickly to, 'cause I should mention it, Joel, in answer to your question. What a lot of our clients will also have now is a charity element to it. So most campaigns that are run will have like a collective charity goal aspect to it. So for example, in this referral campaign, we're gonna run a collective goal to plant 300 trees. And essentially like activity on Slack or Teams results in more trees being planted, but it could be any charity. So it's a combination of that as well. And that tends to work really well. Joel: So just so I'm clear, you provide them the good stuff, whether it's charity donations or cash or whatever, the company just decides, okay, what we think our employees will want. And if they change it, that's totally fluid. And you guys just provide the platform to do that. Sam Davies: Sorry, more than that. So a company would assign a budget. So say you're running a referral campaign for a month, you've got a hiring drive in tech, for example. And that's the other thing about engagement. Most of our clients will run like targeted Slack or Teams or email campaigns where and when they need it, moving away from this always-on approach. But to go back to your question, when you were going with this reward shop methodology, so for a raffle, so say you had like three winners at the end of a campaign, those winners would earn tokens. So it's not like the employee's saying, I'm gonna assign these three rewards, but the employee would then say, okay, I've got 500 tokens. I'm gonna go into the reward shop and decide what I wanna spend that on. So it gives the employee complete freedom to decide what they want. Joel: But the reward shop is purely powered by you guys. Sam Davies: So we have partners, reward shop partners. So we use, we partner with a number of them, but the one that's most common is XOXOday. And we use them primarily 'cause they're the most global. So whatever country you're in around the world, be I'm based in the US, it will show you different voucher options. I'm based in India, it's gonna show you different voucher options. So again, it becomes a completely global solution. Joel: We've seen, and we are seeing companies go to sort of share the link with any, like anyone knows about a job paying $1,000 referral fee and if I know someone who might be a good fit, even though I don't work at the company, I can share that, affiliate marketing style. And if they apply and get a job, then I get paid, even though I'm not an employee at the company. Have you thought about that model? Did you vote against it and why? Where are you guys on expanding the referral stuff outside of the employee base? Sam Davies: Yeah, it's already happening with a few of our clients, although not quite to everybody. So they're using it for early careers hiring. So we've got two of our clients now that use it for early careers. And the reason I say it's beyond the employee pool is because they're trying to engage university students who are either doing apprenticeships or internships with them. So EY would be a good example of this. And they're engaging those university students to then become almost like brand ambassadors for them on campus to share those grad jobs or those apprenticeship jobs with their fellow network. So that's already happening. So that's an example of external referrals. Alumni is another example. In terms of making it work and going even bigger, one of our clients is currently considering it. We would definitely support it. There are tax implications when you're sort of rewarding people who aren't your employees, but it can be done. And we've certainly seen a huge amount of success for that early careers piece and getting interns, apprentices to start sharing jobs and content with their networks before even joining the company. Chad: So Sam, talk about the response that you started receiving from brands, from prospective customers. Once you moved from a come to Real Links to come to Teams, Slack, email, what was their response to you? Because you've been talking to these people for a while and then you switched. I mean, you pivoted, right? So what was the response at that point? And when did you know this is it? Sam Davies: So I was going back to some of the companies that we previously demoed to. So we'd previously spoken to EY, we'd previously spoken to BT, previously spoken to HelloFresh, a number of them. Chad: Ones who weren't clients? Sam Davies: Ones who weren't clients. Chad: Okay. Sam Davies: So these weren't clients and we pitched the platform to them. We then went back, we then showed them what we were doing here. It was like night and day. It was a complete transition. And I think I'm seeing more of that enterprise level because any enterprise company has just got so many systems. I think when you speak to an enterprise, they're like, that's where you've really hit a sweet spot 'cause they're like, okay, this is perfect. I can achieve what I want here, get maximum employee engagement without asking my employees to join another system. Sam Davies: That sort of idea that we could be an invisible platform. And our pipeline and our courses over the last period have been almost transformational for us. And that is simply down to the fact that we were peddling the wrong tool in lots of ways. And that's a massive learning, right? But you don't know when you're a startup and you're learning as you go. And thankfully we realized the sort of error of our ways while we had a good amount of time left and have been able to course correct. And I think the other aspect of this, guys, is not only has it helped for conversations because it appeals, but we're seeing the results. As I was having a look over some of the case studies before we jumped on here. We work with an organization called Celonis. We've increased our referral hires from 9%-33% within less than a year. I think we got them up there within sort of a six-month period. And again, it's all just about making sure your engagement is in the channels that employees are using on a daily basis. And that's absolutely fundamental. And we're seeing that across the board now. Chad: Let's talk a little bit about the perspective numbing effect though, because you get into some of these systems, right? And one of the problems we've seen, I think with referrals over the years is that you just blast your employees with these referrals over and it's every day and it's constantly, right? Sam Davies: 100% Chad: How are you going to ensure that that numbing doesn't happen? Can you? SFX: Just the tip. [laughter] Sam Davies: What we realized again was one of the other problems was exactly what you're describing. These generic automated comms going from our platform to employees being here's the latest jobs. And we thought we cracked it because we applied some relevancy to it. So we were like, the weekly email that everybody gets is going to show the jobs that are most related to that individual. So trouble is you send anybody a weekly email with jobs, they're going to switch off. So when we rebuilt the platform and it really was a rebuild of the platform, we built a campaign builder. Sam Davies: So essentially it now works that when we're talking about sending you these Slack or Teams or email comms, you're building a campaign to support whatever objective you have at that moment in time. Do I have a hiring drive in tech? Okay, let's build a campaign for tech. When you're running a hiring drive in tech, you're only adding your tech jobs or any content that's going to support that, but you're inviting employees to participate in that campaign who have relevant networks. So if we're sending these automated Slack messages to go with that example for a tech hiring campaign, those messages are only going to the product teams or the tech teams or the teams that we think would have relevant networks for those campaigns. Sam Davies: So you're running these referral campaigns where and when you need them. You're moving away from this, I'm just going to blast everybody with like the same email every week. If you take that approach, if you take what I call the always-on approach, even if you use Slack or Teams or email, you're still gonna lead to an engagement drop off. You've got to run campaigns. Campaigning is absolutely fundamental and engage employees where and when you need it. The other sort of, I guess, development that's worth mentioning to you guys is because we started seeing such good engagement in terms of employee sharing jobs, let's go with HelloFresh, for example. They're like, can we use this for content sharing? Could we use this for employer brand advocacy? And we've got as many clients now using the platform for employer brand activation, employer brand advocacy, as we do referrals. Chad: And this was their idea, not your idea? Sam Davies: Well, yeah, they had the content. So we had, again, there was a version of our platform previously that did facilitate the sharing of content. So it wasn't completely alien to them. That was there, but it was let's start funneling that content through these channels as well. And again, to give you an example of that, we've got lots of clients now that are building up ambassador programs using the platform. There's a lot of organizations now that they're trying to turn all of their employee populations into brand ambassadors or employer brand ambassadors. They'll usually do that by creating a Teams channel or a Slack channel. And that's the way in which they're manually trying to engage them to share content to support employer brand. They're now able to automate all of that via the Real Links platform. So we're seeing ambassador communities being built using the Real Links tool as well, which is awesome. And it's got that dual use, which is, again, it's helping us as a business to accelerate from a growth perspective. Joel: Sam, when we spoke four years ago, you were pretty much LinkedIn integrated. And I had a question around, what about the people who aren't on LinkedIn? Seems like there's a whole universe of folks, working class, blue collar, on the line, on the move, that are outside of the referral product. Are you still looking at that as an opportunity? Do you think it's just a waste of time to try to get them engaged as you do with companies that are on Slack, in Teams? There are a lot of companies and employees that don't use those products. Sam Davies: No, it's a great question. So we also, well, we've got a number of clients that have a number of employees that are on the shop floor or in warehouses. And it's our job to make sure that we engage them as well. There are a few different ways that we do that. One could be through, so we've got one client, they're called Expedia. It's like field marketing. So everybody's on site all the time. They'll do it through automated emails to people's personal emails and employees at their organization are able to one-click share from the email. We can also do that via WhatsApp, so automated WhatsApp messages to employees on site to the extent that a company has permissions to do that, or automated text messages. And then with other organizations as well. Sam Davies: I'm not sure if we spoke about it last time, but we do have a mobile app. So we've got companies that fall into the category you're talking about, Joel, that would have QR codes up on site as well, and employees would scan the QR code and at which point, from an activation perspective, they'll receive push notifications via the app. So when you're talking that employee group, we're really focusing on like WhatsApp, text message, email to the extent that that's gonna work. And it, and that by the way, that works super successfully for that Expedia company. Joel: So you have native apps on Android and iPhone? Sam Davies: Yes, we do. Joel: How's that engagement? How's that going? And when did that launch? Sam Davies: We launched that for a client probably about nine months ago. Joel: Okay. Sam Davies: Maybe. Joel: So new. Sam Davies: Yeah. Yeah. So relatively new. But yeah, look, it's all about, with all of that, it's about that initial adoption piece. And in order to crack that, that'd be a combination of things, posters on site, trickle downs from sort of managers and teams, team meetings to the extent that we can use email, WhatsApp and text, pushing it out that way, that that's sort of fundamental to get everybody on the app. So if you get that right, you are in a strong position but then making sure that, just like I spoke about with sort of Teams and Slack, we're doing sensible push notifications to bring them back and take the actions that we want them to take. Yes, we support LinkedIn, but these employees are primarily sharing on Facebook, on WhatsApp, on Twitter. Our goal is really to be a referral and advocacy solution for any company. We wanna be industry agnostic, and we've got success stories now to back that up. So they're excited to support different employee types. And again, to go to HelloFresh, we're in conversations with them to support them in one of their delivery centers, for example. Joel: My man loves dropping HelloFresh. Sam Davies: I do. I do. I do. [laughter] Joel: Clearly it was McKesson when we first talked. McKesson came outta your mouth a lot. Now it's HelloFresh. Okay, so you're four some years into this journey. Sam Davies: Yeah. Joel: Where do you stand on, what do you want to be when you grow up? Are we looking acquisition? Obviously I'm assuming IPO is not in the future. Is it just gonna continue to organically grow? What's your vision for the next four years? Sam Davies: So my vision would be to organically grow and ideally sell within the next four years. So we've got some growth to do over the next 2-3 years to get there. Joel: Love the honesty, by the way. I love it when people are like, eh, we're looking to sell next year, next couple years. So good for you for honesty. Sam Davies: No, I mean, look, realistically, I think, it's not something that's gonna probably happen in the next two years. Joel: And who's a good potential buyer for a referral company? Is it an ATS, is it one of these remote platforms? What do you think? Sam Davies: It's. I would say that we, yeah, the ATS route is definitely a strong path for us. I think the reality is we've got a very good referral and advocacy module now, and if an ATS snaps us up, they could easily sell that onto their customer base and make a tidy return. So, it's a good route. There's also CRMs, obviously big CRMs in the market, big HR systems, obviously you saw Radancy bought... Chad: Firstbird. Sam Davies: Firstbird, for example. So there are different routes, but yeah, I'd say the ATS route is obviously, probably what... Chad: Well, friends, that's Sam Davies. Thanks again for coming back to give us an update. Again, four years ago, who the hell, I mean, that went fast, my friend. If somebody wants to get ahold of you, they want to get away from the friction, how can they get ahold of you and where can they find more about Real Links? Sam Davies: Yeah, if you can hit up reallinks.io, not dot-com yet, Joel, reallinks.io. Or if you just wanna hit me up straight away, sam@reallinks.io. Joel: Sam the Butcher Davies Jr. Everybody. Chad, that's another reunion pod in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the Firing Squad, contact the boys@chadcheese.com today. That's www.chadcheese.com.

Artificial intelligence and the world of work are strange bedfellows, especially when it comes to recruiting. It's OK if you're a bit confused, but trust us, you're not alone. We're pretty lost too, particularly when you start imagining where things could go as AI develops at lightning speeds. That's why we invited Hilke Schellmann, NYU Professor, Emmy Award-Winning Technology Journalist, and author of How AI Decides Who Gets Hired, Monitored, Promoted, and Fired and Why We Need to Fight Back Now to the podcast. Together, we cover a broad range of topics from her take on HR Tech, to bias on steroids to rampant sexism to vocal biomarkers (say what?). It's a must-listen for navigating the ever-evolving minefield that is AI in recruiting. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel Cheesman: Ohhh, yeah. It's President Biden's favorite podcast, aka The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always, the salt to my pepper, Chad Sowash is in the house. And we are just giddy... S?: Push it. Joel Cheesman: Giddy to welcome Hilke Schellmann, NYU professor and Emmy Award-winning technology journalist. Chad Sowash: What? Joel Cheesman: And author of the book, "How AI Decides Who Gets Hired, Monitored, Promoted, and Fired, and Why We Need to Fight Back Now". Hilke, was AI used in creating the title of that book? 'Cause it's a mouthful. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: It's a mouthful. Hilke Schellmann: I know, I know it was a mouthful. It wasn't created by AI, but we did try to use AI for the book cover. I ran it through all the AI image generators, and you know what, it's very sad. It's a lot of robots. It was a lot of blue and zeros and one, and I was like, "I don't want that. This is about humans, humans." So we came up with orange and yellow and a face and sort of fractaling how humans are reflected by AI and seen by AI. That's what we wanted to convey. So I worked with a human on that. Joel Cheesman: And we love humans on the show. Hilke Schellmann: Ohh. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Before we get to all the AI, let our listeners know who Hilke is. What did I miss in the intro? What do you like to do in your personal life? Give us an insight into Hilke. Hilke Schellmann: Yes, yes. I'm Hilke Schellmann. I have a funny name, hence I'm originally from Germany. It sounds very German, but it turns out the people of Germany have also never heard of my name. So... Joel Cheesman: Ye gut? [laughter] Hilke Schellmann: Sehr gut. Joel Cheesman: Sehr gut. Chad Sowash: Sehr. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: What part of Germany? Hilke Schellmann: Oh, you know what I'm actually from the northwest. It's a town called Bielefeld. It's between Hanover and Cologne. It's one of those... A fine town, mid-level size. I would not recommend you visit it. Joel Cheesman: Good place to raise a family, I guess. Hilke Schellmann: Totally. Totally. Joel Cheesman: Yes. Hilke Schellmann: But apparently, according to the German myth, Bielefeld doesn't exist. But I'm living proof that it does exist. Although now I live in New York city. I'm a reporter here, and I'm also a professor at NYU, I teach students about being a reporter. And I think everything has been driven in my life about curiosity. So I got really curious about AI a few years ago. And I also always loved math and I guess missed that. I was like, "Whoa. There is a technology that supposedly quantifies humans. I wanna know more." And the origin story is, I took a Lyft ride, 2017, at a conference in Washington DC, which was with consumer lawyers. So nothing... It has nothing to do with AI. But I took a Lyft ride from the conference to Union Station to take a train back to New York, and I talked to the driver and I asked him, "Hey, how was your day?" And he was like, "It was really weird." And I'm a reporter, I'm like, "Oh yeah, tell me more. Why was it weird?" [laughter] Hilke Schellmann: And everyone else would be like, "Ohh." And I was like, "Oh yeah, tell me more. Why was it weird?" And so he was like, "I had a job interview with a robot." And I was like, "What? A job interview with a robot? Tell me more." It turns out he had applied for a baggage handler position at a local airport and he got some pre-recorded phone message on his phone, asked him three questions, and I had never heard of that. This is like six years ago. And I was like, "What?" So I made a note like "Robot interviews," and I forgot about it. Until I went to an AI conference and somebody... There was a sparsely populated panel and somebody who had just left the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission was talking about algorithms going through people's calendars and finding how long people are absent. This was in early 2018. And she's like, "I'm worried that this will harm mothers and people with disabilities. There could be bias and discrimination here." And I was like, "Oh, I must look into this." And I talked to some people, went to my first SIOP conference, and I was just blown away by the technology, and have been fascinated by it ever since. And I've published about it a bunch. And then finally I was like, "I think somebody needs to write a book about this and look at the plethora of all these exploding tech tools and maybe dig a little deeper." Chad Sowash: Well, AI's all over the place. It's not just hiring. So why did you pick this space? It's everywhere. Why did this fascinate you? Hilke Schellmann: It's really hard to tell. At the time I was also investigating facial recognition and other technologies for the Wall Street Journal. Chad Sowash: Ah. Hilke Schellmann: But I really felt like, "Wait, no one is looking at AI in HR." And I went to HR Tech, and I know you've been there many times and, my head was hurting. [laughter] Hilke Schellmann: I was on the floor for a few hours and I was like, "Oh my God, this is incredible, all this technology." And you know what? I didn't see a lot of reporters and I was like, "Wait a second, this is really changing. It seems like HR is really changing with this AI technology and other automated tools coming into the industry and we really aren't talking about it." So I was like, "I think we really should talk about this, and we really need to know how these tools work and what's happening." I got really fascinated by it and felt... And I do think that reporters and the public spends a lot... We spend a lot of time thinking about high-stakes decision-making, facial recognition and who gets to board an airplane, how long are you gonna be sentenced to go to prison? Those are all high-stakes decisions that we use algorithms. Hilke Schellmann: And I would also put hiring in that category, or using AI at work, because it matters if I get the job. I understand that people get rejected all the time. And we often don't get the job more often than we do get a job. But I'm nervous before I go to the job interview because it matters to me if I get the job or not. And it's high-stakes for me and I can provide food for my family and a roof over our head. And a lot of people have a lot of their identity tied to their jobs and they would really like to have a job that they love. So we gotta make sure if we use technology to sort people, and reject people and put them into the next round, that that technology works. Joel Cheesman: Our heads hurt at HR Tech as well. Hilke Schellmann: Yes. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: But it's usually a morning-after hurt that our heads encountered... Chad Sowash: Oh. That's usually your head that hurts. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Your whole body hurts. Anyway, so getting into the research, how did you perform the research? Did you work directly with vendors on this research? Give us a little background of the research first and foremost, and then start diving into the book. Hilke Schellmann: I'm a reporter. My longtime home has been the Wall Street Journal. I did a couple of stories for them, so we are as a reporter in a glorious position to call up vendors and ask them questions and they show me their technology. And I got really curious and wanted to know, like, "Okay, what's under the hood? How does this work?" And you can also sign up for free trials, so some of the software I tested myself. I like to test it and understand, "Okay, if I was a job applicant, how does this feel like? How does it feel to play an AI game? What do I have to do? How does it feel to do a one-way video interview?" And I think what's also interesting, I'm a professor, I teach undergrads and graduate students and you know what they all know HireVue. If I talk to anyone over 35, they give me a blank stare and like, "What is that?" All my students know all about it because the jobs that they often apply for like video interviews are super ubiquitous, or also, the career entry-level jobs often now have AI screens. They know all about it. We have some great discussions. Joel Cheesman: I assume it's second nature. They don't think it's weird or, "Why am I talking on a vid... " It's second... Hilke Schellmann: Oh, they totally think it's weird. They totally think it's weird. Joel Cheesman: Oh, they think it's weird? Chad Sowash: Oh yeah? Hilke Schellmann: Yeah. [laughter] Hilke Schellmann: They think it's like, "Why am I speaking to myself in this video presentation?" And I think also, a lot of them really care about jobs and they wanna be doing a really meaningful job in a meaningful company. And a lot of them feel... They don't actually get to talk to the companies, and they don't get to ask questions about the company, they don't get to see the culture of the company a little bit. If you go to an office, you get a glimpse and you get to ask questions. And most of them really do not like it. And some do love it. There're some people who really love to be in their own room and it's quiet and they can just riff off why they're good at things. Chad Sowash: So it's a one-way conversation and they don't like it. Joel Cheesman: That's great insight. Hilke Schellmann: Yeah. It's like... And this is totally anecdotal, the slice of Hilke students. But I've also talked to a bunch of folks who run career centers at universities, and they had similar sentiments from their students, that most of them really don't like it and some actively run away from it. And for some, they love it. But I think especially students who have a disability, they're really worried that this will be somehow, hiring managers will see this and they don't get to explain why they maybe look off camera or something like that, or they're worried that they have a speech impairment and the AI doesn't fully grasp what they are saying. And I think what's interesting is, with prior assessments, I don't know if I used to apply for like a fire department job, I knew how much weights, I have to lug around from A to B and I can train for that. Hilke Schellmann: But now, these assessment screens, or these AI screens, a lot of people... We just don't know how we are being screened. A lot of folks that I've talked to didn't even know that they were possibly screened by AI. They just thought they'd do a one-way video interview and poor HR person has to watch the thousand of video interviews, they didn't know that maybe AI is even being used on them. We don't know how we're being scored. And I think that's actually, gives a lot of people anxiety. They're always asking me like, "Well, what can I do?" And I'm like, "I don't necessarily know that either." Chad Sowash: We didn't know how we were getting scored before, but a lot of times we would just go into a black hole. It just seems like there's bias inherent in the system no matter what. Now we're adding AI. Do you expect to get worse than what it was? Hilke Schellmann: I hope not. [laughter] Hilke Schellmann: But I'm hoping that we wouldn't replicate the human biases. I'm actually not advocating to go back to human hiring. I actually think that's very flawed as well. And you all know this, that we are happier when we have a full belly, yaddi yaddi yaddi. We all know that. We shouldn't go back to that. But my idea is like, wait, now that we are digitizing this and using AI to do a lot of the hiring, let's do this thoughtfully and let's not replicate the biases of the past and build them into these new systems and objectify them through their technology and bringing new machine bias, that also comes into the system. Let's thoughtfully really think about it and talk about, like, "How should we do hiring? Should we really base hiring on past successful employees currently in the company if we wanna diversify, is this a good idea? How can we make sure that we don't pick up what's special to these 50 people that we are looking at versus real skills that we needed on the job?" Hilke Schellmann: And I think we are not quite there yet. In my work, so I get to talk to the largest vendors, I go to HR Tech and I'm very curious how these things work. And I'm glad, I'm grateful to all the vendors who show me their technology, showcase it. I test it out, and often I get a trial run and start it. One thing I did, it was a company that I met at HR Tech when it was during the pandemic, when it was all online, and it's called Curious Thing. And they, at the time, were marketing their AI technology... Joel Cheesman: Hilke, before we get in the weeds too much with every vendor at HR Tech, trust me, we don't wanna get too far in the weeds on that. Let's talk about the book. What was the inspiration for it? What was some of the research that went behind it? What are some things that shocked you as you were going down this journey? Let's get into the book a little bit. Hilke Schellmann: Yeah. What was interesting to me, I felt like... I'm actually kind of a podcaster and a radio person and I did videos, but I actually felt like... Joel Cheesman: We won't hold that against you. [laughter] Hilke Schellmann: But I actually felt like, "Wait a second, how am I gonna explain a resume screening tool in video? I actually need words for that." So I went down the rabbit hole and had everyone and their mother explain everything to me, how their technology works, all the different ones. I played AI games, I did video interviews, I tested my resume, I worked with people who have disabilities and also asked them to go through the screens. And then I did a lot of work on how we are being tracked at work. I'm really interested in things like, "Oh, how does flight risk calculations work? What can you monitor and what can you predict out of my work habits?" I tracked myself for a couple of weeks and figured out, like, "How productive am I?" Those kinds of things. I'm really interested in the idea that we can quantify human beings and how good we are at that, that's the driving questions in all of that. I was blown away when I walked into my first... One of the first SIOP panels in 2018, and somebody was showing me how, back in the day there was the facial emotion recognition, the intonation of our voices, the words that we use and how that is all calculated to figure out how successful you are at the job, and I really was like, "Wow, this sounds like magic. Maybe we have found the key to find a way to hire people better." Joel Cheesman: Or it's total bullshit. Hilke Schellmann: Well, it turns out when you look into the tool, it's a little bit more complicated. The facial emotion recognition, we moved away from that because there isn't a whole lot of science, scientific solid underpinning on that. I think once I got started doing deeper and looked at things and talked to folks who get to also look into the black box a little bit, there are things that came up that I think show you that maybe some of the tools do more harm than they actually do good. And there was a little bit of an a-ha and an awakening moment that I felt like, "Wait a second... " Chad Sowash: Any examples? Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Hilke Schellmann: Yeah, totally. I talked to a couple of folks who get to come in when large companies test these tools and they wanna bring in vendors, they have pilot phases. And I talked to a couple of folks who looked at online resume screeners, and one of them found out... They look at their technical reports and the keywords, and they found out that one of the tools used the word "softball" to down weigh way applicants and the word "baseball" to give them a little bit more weight in the tool. Chad Sowash: Ouch. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Ouch. Hilke Schellmann: And... Joel Cheesman: What? Hilke Schellmann: That is probably gender discrimination, right, 'cause the people that put "softball" on their resume in the United States are more often than not female, and males maybe put "baseball" on their resume. And this job had nothing to do with baseball or softball or whatever, it was just a statistical prediction. And so they found that and told their clients, "I really wouldn't use that tool because you have a gender discrimination lawsuit waiting for you." That's kind of a thing, that's the problems that I kept discovering and discovering. There was another online resume screener that predicted on first names, Thomas, same thing it picked up hobbiew... [overlapping conversation] Chad Sowash: What? Hilke Schellmann: Hobbies, basketball. Apparently, if you had the word "Syria" and/or "Canada" on your resume, that was a predictor success. And these are just... Joel Cheesman: Well, I agree with that. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Canada is a definite... Whether success or not. Are you finding that sexism or racism is a bigger issue with AI? Hilke Schellmann: It's hard to tell. Probably, maybe a little bit more sexism, because I think it's easier to check, because when you do the four-fifth rule, you check men versus women. And so it comes off pretty easily, it's a pretty easily gauge if there's something wrong. And that, I heard over and over again. There's another lawyer who looked into an AI game spender. He was like, "We tried to do it in the pilot phase, slice and dice it every different way." It was always discriminating against women. And what's striking to me is that we as the public don't know about this. I don't know how many HR managers know about this. I'm sure there's... And actually, I know there are, obviously people talk and somebody who's in part of a pilot phase, but I talk to the next person and share this, but we actually don't have this public knowledge. I think what happens a lot is that, we don't push vendors and people who build this technology to do better, because we don't publicly test, we have very little transparency around this. Hilke Schellmann: So I do think, if a tool works, like, "Show me the tool, great, and let's build on that, that would be great." But more often than not, what I found, when I did the test myself or talk to other people, there were really striking things built into it that did not make it as fair as we wanted it to be. And I think another thing that people don't really look at often enough is, so there's intersectional fairness, if you are a part of two groups, if you're maybe a African American woman, that came up a couple of times as well that vendors and companies don't always look for that because they feel like, "Well, the EOC is not really mandating that." And I think that's debatable if you should do that or not. And a couple of companies that did that, it did not turn out in their favor. I think we have a lot of work to do because we know from other examples that this is a problem. And as we've seen again and again with AI, these problems keep replicating, and if we don't take a closer look and monitor these systems constantly, biases creep in all the time. Chad Sowash: Were you able to go down-funnel and better understand on not just the front-end on, let's say, for instance, keywords, but also looking down to the slates of candidates and watching, just literally the percentage of females and let's say individuals of color, were actually out, they're filtered out due to the AI? Because, to be quite frank, most of these AI models are trained on past behavior. And past behavior is... Hilke Schellmann: Exactly. Chad Sowash: Bias. None of this surprised Joel or myself because we keep seeing this over and over. Hilke Schellmann: Yes. [laughter] Hilke Schellmann: Probably no one to bisect in the industry. But the question is, if we know that, why do we keep using these tools and why do we train it on past employees or current employees? Chad Sowash: Yes. Hilke Schellmann: And that's a question... And I don't know what you mean further down the funnel. I did test video interviews... Chad Sowash: On the top of the funnel is the questions that they ask early on for the pre-assessment. And then down-funnel is the actual outcome. Who were the gold medalists, silver medalists and bronze medalists? Hilke Schellmann: Oh. Chad Sowash: Were they all three white dudes? And then what did that pool look like prior to getting to those last three, let's say? Hilke Schellmann: No one has opened their hiring funneling to me like that. Joel Cheesman: I'm shocked. Hilke Schellmann: But I actually would love to do this kind of inquiry. And I'm working with sociologists and computer science and we do these larger sample sizes, then I can just do as a journalist. I do a sample size of two or five and I think that's... I can say like, "Something is weird here." But I think more often enough, we need these larger sample sizes. And I would love to do a long-term study and understand, like, "This AI tool has labeled this person as a no-hire. Let's hire them and let's hire the people that you use with another AI filter in a traditional way and let's follow them for years, thousands of them, and figure out who is actually successful." I think that would be a real benefit to society to do this. Joel Cheesman: A real benefit, but also a really nice fantasy, I think, in most cases. You mentioned monitoring this. We've talked everything from having an audit system, whether that's government or private sector that comes in. You talk... Whistleblowers, because this is bias at scale. Chad Sowash: Oh God, yeah. Joel Cheesman: This isn't the individual... Hilke Schellmann: Yes. Yes. Joel Cheesman: Hiring manager. This is mass bias. Hilke Schellmann: And I think that's where the risk lie, right, like in traditional hiring. Chad Sowash: Oh, yeah. Joel Cheesman: Vendors don't wanna necessarily open the kimono. Employers don't wanna open their windows to what's going on. What's your thoughts on monitoring this? What's a common sense approach? What has worked or what do you see working in the future? Hilke Schellmann: I think what might be helpful is, if everyone could be a little skeptical and ask questions about accuracy. If AI is 90% accuracy, what was the training data? How did you come to that 90% accuracy? Was it a holdout of your own training dataset? Or if you don't have 90% accuracy, that's very bad, your tool probably doesn't work. It's the same dataset. Have you tested it in the wild? What other data have you used over time? How have you monitored the system? Those are pretty easy questions to ask, I think that gives you a little bit of insight. And then I think everyone should go through a pilot phase and really figure out, "Okay. Can I use biased datasets in here? Do I get biased outcomes? What happens if I use synthetic data?" And then I also think, I test these tools and I always tell people, "Steal my methods." I want people to... Obviously I want people to read my book, but I also want them to read the book and steal my methods, like how did I test the tool? Hilke Schellmann: One of the tools like that says, it can find out how good people speak English. This is for call centers abroad. When you hire people abroad, when competency is English. So when I did it, I did the interview, I spoke English and answered all the questions in English. I got an 8.5 out of 9 English competent, very competent actually. I was very proud of myself. I was like, "Oh man, English is my second language. This is great. What a great AI tool." And then I spoke to it in German. 'Cause I was like, for sure all the vendors that I always talked to talked about like, "You have to have a threshold that you have to overcome. If you have a speech impairment or there's silence, you get an error message." I was like, "I will get wanna an error message." And so I spoke to it in German, sent it off, and then I got a 6 out of 9 English competent. [laughter] Hilke Schellmann: It was all German. In fact, I read the Wikipedia entry on psychometrics in German. It's called "psychometrie." There was not one English word, but I got a competency score in English. And I did that with a couple of other interviews. And sometime... One other tools, and one actually gave me a transcription. And it was... It was just gibberish. It didn't even make sense at all in English. But I got a 73 match score for the job. Chad Sowash: Now you talked to one of these vendors after this, did you not? And... Hilke Schellmann: I talked to all of the vendors afterwards. Chad Sowash: And they gave you reasoning behind it. What was their reasoning? Hilke Schellmann: For the one that I was 6 out of 9 English competent, it was very... I was like, higher math interview. They were telling me that this is in a 5D space and in this space there was, German and English were close by and that's why this confusion in the AI tool... Chad Sowash: Like total bullshit. Hilke Schellmann: And I was so confused that I was like, "I don't know what a 5D space is and I'm just so confused." [laughter] Hilke Schellmann: And at the end it was just like, if you're in front of a judge and you have to explain why I was rejected or got the job... Made it into the next round. What... Can you just say how that happened? And it was another round of 5D and spaces that I don't understand, and I was like, "I'm not sure if you understand the developer of the tool, what your tool predicts upon." And I think that's where I feel like we really need to be skeptics about it, and really understand like, "Wait, we make high-stakes decisions on people here if they get a job or not. We need to know what we are predicting upon and how these tools do the job and how can we actually have a printout, old-school speak at the end to understand like how did the tool derive at these outcomes and at these predictions and what were taken into consideration?" 'Cause we don't want proxies, baseball, basketball or the way I speak or the way I look to be part of that, but we have to monitor these systems. Hilke Schellmann: I also talked to the company that gave me a 73% match success score rate for speaking German, and it came up with this gibberish transcript in English, and they told me that it wasn't the words that I used because clearly their transcription was gibberish. And they were like, "No, no, no, the AI tool knew that." But it was the intonation of your voice that they checked that was 73 match score to the job. And they congratulated me of having great intonation. I was like, "I don't even know what science that is built on. We really shouldn't use this for hiring. We should use methods that work." Chad Sowash: Well, they were assessing for English language. So therefore your intonation, it doesn't matter. Hilke Schellmann: Well, but they were saying the intonation, they also checked the intonation of voices, and my voice was, apparently that was the one thing that stood out to the AI tool. Chad Sowash: But to qualify, you have to be able to speak English and you did not speak English, so therefore you didn't qualify. Although they're saying you did qualify because of intonation. It makes no sense. Hilke Schellmann: It makes no sense. But that's some of the tools that I have encountered in the space. And so that makes me think, if me, somebody who has really no complex technical training or knowledge, can play with these tools and they break upon impact, we really have more work to do. And do you want me to read what came out of the transcription when I talked about psychometrie? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Hilke Schellmann: What came out of the transcription was, so this is the words I spoke in German and then the English transcription was, "So humidity is desk a beat-up. Sociology, does it iron? Mined material nematode adapt. Secure location, mesons the first half gamma their fortunes in." It goes on and on and on. But as you can tell, it's total gibberish and I got... Joel Cheesman: Crazy pills... Hilke Schellmann: A 73% match to the job. I think, I want people to use these methods too and test these tools... Joel Cheesman: Hilke, when I knew we were gonna talk to you today, I felt really confident that you were gonna clarify all this stuff, that I was gonna leave this interview... [laughter] Joel Cheesman: And be totally in sync with what's going on. But I feel less secure. I feel like the cat is out of the bag. I feel like this stuff is advancing so quickly. And we also... A lot of these are tools for individuals. We have no control for the rogue recruiter that says, "I'm gonna throw this video in some tool that isn't okayed by my company and see what it says." We talked about Google Gemini on the show last week and being able to AI from voice, sight, sound, text, everything, we're going into a full monitor mode of our employees, not just hiring, but while they're on the job. Hilke Schellmann: Oh, totally. At work, yeah, totally. Joel Cheesman: Our raises, our promotions, are gonna be driven by what AI says about us. I'm just overwhelmed by this and it sounds like you are too. Give me some hope. Give me some hope as we... [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Wind this down, that, I don't wanna jump off the ledge. Chad Sowash: Give Joel a hug. Hilke Schellmann: No, no, no, don't jump off the ledge. And in fact, I'm very hopeful that I feel like we're at the beginning of this. Joel Cheesman: Oh, good. Phew. Hilke Schellmann: It has taken over a lot of the HR space and we see 8 out of 10 of the largest companies in the US use some form of monitoring and a lot do. But I actually think now that we talk about it and we humans have still control over these systems, let's actually talk about it and have a conversation how we can do this better. So I actually feel this is exactly the time we need to talk about this. The same with audits. I've reported on audits that companies have done themselves and paid a third-party entity to do these audits. And strikingly enough, the tools work as advertised. I wonder why. Joel Cheesman: Phew. Hilke Schellmann: Because maybe there's a conflict in interest of bay. And also, we don't even really have audit standards, what are we auditing for? One of the audits was basically like a roundtable discussion. It didn't even look at the algorithms and figure it out like, "What is going on here?" The other one was a conflict of interest, people who were leaders of the company were on the scientific papers that was published about the audit. That is not clear delineation of church and state and an independent assessment. I don't actually believe that is a good way. I think what would help is transparency. And we need non-for-profits or some folks or universities or who knows, testing these tools, at large scale publishing that. And also building tools so then we actually maybe have an online resume screener that works and we can tell people, "Here's the GitHub. Take that code and build your own and manage it and monitor it." And don't just build like black boxes and the... Out there and don't share it, because that's the only way that we will actually get better and understand how these tools work. Hilke Schellmann: But I agree with you that some of it is really scary. In the book I tested vocal biomarkers, that out of our speech stream can find out, are you possibly gonna have Parkinson's? Or maybe you're already sliding into Parkinson's. But they can also find out, are we anxious? Are we depressed? And I feel like, I don't know if I want my boss to know that. But anything can be used. We could use this and run this over the vocal biomarkers. And in fact... Joel Cheesman: Ooh. Hilke Schellmann: I've done that because there're apps that you can download from these startups and I've just... Poor random people's YouTube audios and ran it through the vocal biomarker and it gives you a score, how depressed, how anxious you are. So anything can be done with these technologies, and we don't actually know if they work. We know from science that there's something in our voices, but how exactly it works and really 30 seconds at a time one day is probably not a good idea to understand... Joel Cheesman: No. Hilke Schellmann: Like how depressed or anxious you are. And maybe you just ran up a flight of stairs and you're out of breath and that's why you aroused in your voice. It's really hard to tell, maybe over a long period of time. Joel Cheesman: Some of us don't need AI to figure out that fat, drunk and stupid, is not something that needs to be analyzed by AI. Chad Sowash: Or a way to go through life, Cheesman. So it's scary... [laughter] Chad Sowash: It's muddy, but it is the algorithm. Can you tell us how AI decides who gets hired, monitored, promoted, and fired, and why we need to fight back now? How do I buy this book, Hilke? Hilke Schellmann: Oh, how do you buy it? Chad Sowash: Yes. Hilke Schellmann: You just go online and buy it. Also, there's an audio version, that I spoke. I think it's really fun because I got to reiterate my own experiments. So I think it's really fun. Chad Sowash: Nice. Hilke Schellmann: You can also listen to it and you can tell me all about it. I have social media feeds and I would love to actually hear people's feedback on my methods and what I did. I'm very open to critical feedback 'cause I wanna know, what can we do better? That includes me. Tell me what you think and what else We need to look at in the space. Joel Cheesman: The book... Hilke Schellmann: And I'm also interested in looking at these tools myself and finding ones that really work. I'm really open to that. I just need to look under the the hood. I'm just not gonna buy marketing language that this stuff works as advertised, because we know way too often that it doesn't. I'm inviting everyone to look under the hood with me. Joel Cheesman: She is a whirlwind, everybody. Go read the book. Listen to the book. She's also very active on X, the artist formerly known as Twitter. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, podcast, The Chad and Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout-outs to people you don't even know. And yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

Do the names H3, Zubka, YorZ, Jobster, Refer.com and KarmaOnef mean anything to you? How about Indeed Crowd? Still no? Well, they're all that created a referral marketplace and eventually called it quits. History does not look fondly on empowering regular people to promote jobs to their networks for money. Draftboard, however, thinks they've cracked the code. CEO and founder Zach Roseman joins the boys on a lively episode of Firing Squad. To say Zach had a mountain to climb is an understatement, but he just may sway the world into his way of thinking. We are all recruiters? Well, maybe ... maybe not. Gotta listen to see if Draftboard survives the Firing Squad. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids. The Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel Cheeseman: All right, all right, all right. What's up, everybody? It's Krampus's favorite podcast, a.k.a the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Max to my Grinch, Chad Sowash is in the house. Chad Sowash: Gello. Yes. Joel Cheeseman: And we are excited to welcome Zach Roseman, founder and CEO at a startup called Draftboard. Zach, welcome to Firing Squad. Zach Roseman: Thanks. Thanks for having me here. Excited to be here. Joel Cheeseman: No problem. No problem. Now, a lot of our listeners don't know who you are. We'll get to the business stuff after. We want to know about you. What makes Zach tick? Tell us your story. Chad Sowash: Business in the front, party in the back. [chuckle] Zach Roseman: Oh, this is gonna be fun. Yeah, my name's Zach. I grew up in New York, lived there for most of my life. I actually just moved to Tel Aviv, Israel a few months ago, so it's been an exciting, wild time... Chad Sowash: Hello. Zach Roseman: The last couple of months. Talk about moving to a new city, and it's like, "Hey, war." So that's definitely gonna... Chad Sowash: Whoof. Zach Roseman: A slap in the face, but also pretty crazy to see in a lot of ways, positive and negative. Chad Sowash: Yes. Zach Roseman: So yeah, that's been a lot of my life the last eight weeks, but I've got a beautiful wife and a lovely daughter with another one on the way. And yeah, I love what I do. I wake up every morning excited. I like working out. I like going on hikes. And yeah, I'm a pretty simple guy. Joel Cheeseman: There it is. Chad Sowash: So we generally don't ask questions on this segment, [laughter] but I want to know as an Israeli, what is life like? I mean, us in America, we see what's going on in Gaza. Is it normal? Is it business as usual? Are people scared? Talk about what it's like in Tel Aviv right now. Zach Roseman: Yeah. I mean, I'll let you guide me, but I won't go too long. But there have been phases in the first few days after the terror attack on October 7th. I live in Tel Aviv, which is like 40 miles away from the Gaza Strip, and we were wondering if there were terrorists that were gonna be coming out with AK-47s in our neighborhood, right? They're not... That seems to be a concern. And then the last seven weeks since that point, since a few days afterwards, it's been more about, "Okay, the country is sort of starting to deal with the aftermath of that. And so you've got 300,000 people in a country of 10 million called up to reserves... Army reserve duty. So in the tech space, 20 to 30 percent of pretty much every company has lost people to the front lines. And then from a living perspective, it's weird. Zach Roseman: It's kind of Twilight Zone-y, like Black Mirrory. The shops and restaurants are sort of open again during the day. Everything's closed at night. There's no nightlife to speak of, really. Most of that's because they can't find waiters and waitresses 'cause everyone's on the front lines. But also you can go to coffee and grab it with a friend, and then you stand up and there's a teddy bear sitting on a public bench that's with simulated blood and the picture of a nine-year-old has been captured and taken hostage. And so there's everyday reminders of what's going on. Chad Sowash: Whoof. Whoof. Wow. Zach Roseman: Sorry to take it dark, but that's where we are right now. Chad Sowash: Yeah, no. I mean, war is not light, my friend. Yeah. And then, sorry to hear that you and your family and other families are having to go through that. That's ridiculous. Zach Roseman: Yeah, it's not fun. But you've also seen some amazing things like really, the country is more united than ever. People helping each other in ways are just wild, and the projects that have been grassroot initiative that have got off the ground in the last two months, some of them are not public yet and some of them are. It's just mind-blowing to see what people have done and the way they're volunteering their time. Chad Sowash: Well, Zach, the Israelis are incredibly resilient. Hopefully, you will be resilient today. Because today on Firing Squad, this is how it's gonna go. At that sound of the bell, you're gonna have two minutes to pitch Draftboard. At the end of two minutes, we're going to hit you with about 20 minutes of Q&A. Be sure to be concise or you're gonna get those crickets. At the end of Q&A, you're going to receive either a big applause. Congratulations, Zach. '24 just started out with a bang in a good way. Golf club. Joel Cheeseman: Easy. Easy with the puns. [laughter] Chad Sowash: You've got some noise happening there, but you're gonna need more of an arsenal to move this market. And last but not least, the Firing Squad. Such bad things right now. Jesus. Joel Cheeseman: Metaphor. It's a metaphor. It's a metaphor. Chad Sowash: This is worse than Andy Cohen and Kathy Griffin on the New Year's Eve party. Joel Cheeseman: Ah start us on a downers, Zach, please. Chad Sowash: Just preemptively apologize and go on with something else in your life, my friend. Zach Roseman: We're going to save space though, right? We're going to say it's all good. [laughter] Everything happening outside the walls of this podcast is irrelevant for now. Chad Sowash: This is a trust tree. Trust tree, yes. Zach Roseman: Exactly. Chad Sowash: Take it away. Take it away, Cheeseman. Joel Cheeseman: All right, Zach, give us your pitch in three, two. Zach Roseman: So I founded a company called Draftboard and the basic concept is very simple. Most companies offer their employees a referral bonus if they refer a new hire. It could be $1,000, $3,000, $5,000, all the way up to $10,000 or $20,000 I've seen. And our pitch to companies is very simple and it seems to be an effective pitch. Why are you limiting that referral bonus to only your own employees? The point of a referral bonus is to incentivize people, your employees, to refer better people so that you can hire better people faster. Zach Roseman: Hire them two, four, six, eight weeks faster. So why limit it to just your employees? There's a whole wide world out there with a huge network that's much bigger than your 3-person startup or 10-person startup or 200-person startup. And so that's what we do. We're a marketplace. On one side of the marketplace, companies sign up. It takes literally 90 seconds. We integrate with applicant tracking systems like Greenhouse, Lever, Workable, and a few others. Three clicks and you're in. You decide what bonus you want for the jobs to be listed on Draftboard. You can list a bonus for some jobs, all jobs, one job. You can have different bonuses for each job. Totally up to you as the company. You can list bonuses and then take them down. You can keep them up for a long time, whatever you want. You can change them from second to second. So that's one side of the marketplace, the jobs are listed. Zach Roseman: And then the other side of the marketplace is what we call scouts. A scout is anyone in the world. It's you, me, it's your parents, your siblings, your partner, your friend, your spouses. Everyone in the world has a network. That network was built from who you went to kindergarten with, who you went to college with, who you play basketball with on the weekends. And that network is valuable to the right company at the right time for the right job. But right now, those companies have no idea that candidates that they want to reach even exists, let alone how to reach them. And so the second side of the network is scouts. And scouts are essentially, it's a fancy word for referrer, right? Zach Roseman: So I refer you, you refer someone else. I can go onto draftboard.com as a scout or anyone can. And you can see what jobs are hiring and what the referral bonus is. So literally in seconds, you can go to draftboard.com right now you can see a job for, I don't know, SeatGeek or Veer or Formlabs. Click share. And within less than 10 seconds, you can share a link to that job with your friend. Your friend clicks in the link. He sees a job application page that's hosted on draftboard.com. We've ingested it from the company's ATS, and they decide whether to apply or not. Zach Roseman: There's some magic that happens afterwards to make sure that we can maintain quality, which we'll, maybe we get to in an hour or hopefully we'll get to in the Q&A, which I think is actually the most important part of Draftboard. But that's it. The basic idea is that companies can get better distribution for their jobs by offering an incentive, because incentives do drive behavior. And scouts is this sort of new concept where we're not allowing anyone in the world to either make side hustle money 'cause they love meeting people and introducing people. Or they can build an entire business on draft board. There's a lot more to it. It's idea was heavily inspired by my wife. She would kill me if I didn't mention that. So I'll pause there. Joel Cheeseman: All right, Zach. Pretty tight, man. Pretty tight. I like it. Let's talk about the name. The good news is I really like it. I mean, it has some connotations with military, [chuckle] with professional sports. Zach Roseman: Exactly. Joel Cheeseman: I love that you have the.com, so my question is, what's the genesis of the name? Did you have to go drop some coin on the.com? I can't imagine it was available. Tell us about the story of the name. Zach Roseman: Yeah. So I came up with the idea last June, so June, 2022. And I called, this what a lot of people do, friends and said, "What do you think of this?" 'Cause I did not want to be a founder, like I came from the corporate world. I was the CEO of a large or mid-size company, depending on how you count. I didn't want to be a founder. I acquired companies with founders and they had terrible lives. And so it really took a lot of people convincing me to do it. So once I decided I was gonna do it, and I sketched out what the product would look like, then I was like, "Okay, well, in order to raise money, you need to actually have a name for it. And so I sat down and I was like, what are the best names I can come up with? And this idea of professional sports where you draft your team, they're literally the draft board in football in the rookie draft. Joel Cheeseman: Oh, we're familiar. Zach Roseman: You literally have a whiteboard. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, we're familiar. Zach Roseman: Right? Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Zach Roseman: And then you cross out names. And I thought about that a lot as when you're building a team for your company, you're drafting your team, right? You're choosing who you want. And so I liked that concept. It really meshed well, yeah. Actually, the military angle, I didn't even realize until I was talking to my wife's grandfather and he heard the name and his face, his eyes went wide and like fear. And he is like, you know the word draft board is like a very negative word for me. 'Cause those are the people that can call you to go to World War II. And I was like... Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Go to war. Yeah. [laughter] Zach Roseman: Yeah. So that's where it came from. Joel Cheeseman: And the.com, did you have to buy it or it... Zach Roseman: No, that was a story. I'll keep it simple. I got the draft code that was available. The.com was actually owned by a fantasy sports company, maybe unsurprisingly, that had failed. I found the people, I figured out a way to get in contact with them and said, "Hey, I'd love to buy this off of you." They just said, "No." And so I tried three or four times, and then finally, once I raised money, I was like, "Hey, I've got some investors. I think I might be able to do a little bit more." And so you are given a price that, for me, was a steal, but it was real money. But he was finally like, "Yeah, it's a matter... Like, "If you pay me what I bought it for, I'll sell it to you." And it worked. Chad Sowash: Oh, nice. Joel Cheeseman: That's nice. That's nice. Now you've had executive positions, I would say. You've had some finance, some wall streety positions in the past, but no sort of recruiting, no HR. Now obviously you've ran companies, so you've nibbled on that, but with no experience, why was this ideas that appealing that you would sort of dive into it? You have some experience at IAC, which is a big internet company, so you have some competency there, but you're not from recruiting this idea was just that good, I guess. Zach Roseman: Yeah. So I think there's two things I'll answer to that. One is, it touched on a lot of the pain points or some of the major pain points I had as a CEO. So my last company, I was a 500 person company. We had offices around the world. One of the biggest challenges, and I'm really serious about one of the biggest challenges, friction between hiring managers and our talent team. Our talent team were busting their butts to find great candidates. And yet they would... The hiring managers always felt like they weren't getting the best or it wasn't coming fast enough. And it created this real issue because the hiring manager committed to, "Okay, I'm gonna do X, Y, Z in this quarter and in the next quarter and by the end of the year." And they would come to me and say, "The talent team isn't sending me the right candidates. Can I hire an agency? Because otherwise I can't deliver to you as the CEO what I promised." Zach Roseman: And so they're putting me in this position. And then the talent team would say, "No, I'm sending them great candidates." They just keep saying no to everyone. And actually they didn't do like an onboarding call with me to like talk about what they actually wanted for the role. And so now they keep changing it. So it was this massive problem. And so when I had the idea, I sort of thought about that and I thought of like, incentives aren't necessarily aligned between hiring managers, talent team, talent team gets paid a salary. They're not incentivized to move as fast as an outside recruiter, but at the same point... Oh, it's boring. Okay. Joel Cheeseman: I'm sorry Zach. Let's move on to money. Now you mentioned investment. You are not on Crunchbase. So you have investors listed on the site. Talk about the money. I'm guessing this is either pre-seed or seed round. How much have you raised? Zach Roseman: Yeah. So I haven't disclosed that yet. We'll announce that pretty shortly. But for raise from some great investors, you guys are smiling for some reason. [laughter] S?: Woo. Zach Roseman: Raise for some amazing... I can tell you the funds we raised from Founder Collective, Animal Ventures, Twelve Below, Ground Up Ventures, some great early stage funds, mostly based out of New York. Joel Cheeseman: All right. You don't wanna break any news on our show? That's cool. That's cool. Zach Roseman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: Okay, Zach. So let me get this straight. Anyone can refer a candidate. So why would I want an anonymous person that's out there? I don't even know referring people to my jobs. I mean, is there any QA, QC that's involved to ensure that these people that are being referred actually meet the requirements to my job? 'Cause I already have enough shit coming into my jobs in the first place. I don't need more. I just need quality. How do you ensure that I get only quality? Zach Roseman: I couldn't agree with you more. I've literally sat on calls. People have screen shared their screens and lever and Greenhouse with 4,000 applications. 1600, 843. That number sticks in my head. The job boards do a disservice to their users, both the companies and the candidates. 'Cause they allow one-click applications. There's no friction in the process. We introduce friction. And so if you apply for a job on LinkedIn, your application goes directly to the company's Lever at Greenhouse. And the company now has to deal with sorting through all that crap. There's a 3% accept rate, right? One out every 30 resumes. The company says,"You're good enough for me to have a call with it, with someone on my talent team." With Draftboard, when a candidate submits an application. Zach Roseman: The scout who referred them, the person who sent them the link first is the line of defense. So the application gets sent to the scout first and the scout has to either approve or reject it. Now why would they reject that application? Because anyone they approve, we track the status of that application because we're in an integrated with the company's Greenhouse or Lever, whatever, ATS. And so when Scout approves an application, we send it to the Lever or Greenhouse system and we can track the status of the application. It moves through... As it moves through the recruiting funnel. So we know when it's in screen by HR or even before that resume received, first interview, second interview, third interview, all the way down through the funnel. And we can assign a score, or scouts earn a score, what we call a reputation score. And so if that score... Let's say you're a really good scout and 80% of the candidates you send are getting through the first stage of resume review. You're gonna have a 4.7 and a 5-star rating. Think of it like an Uber score, or an Airbnb rating, right? Chad Sowash: How are you tracking down that far in the funnel? Zach Roseman: Because we have permissions from the... The company gives permissions to track the candidates... Chad Sowash: But, yeah. But that doesn't matter because Lever and Greenhouse break shit all the time. So if you put a pixel in there, they're gonna break your pixel. It's gonna be a pain in the ass. So how do you specifically, do you use a Pixel? Do you use a sort... What do you do to actually ensure that you're... Zach Roseman: We have permissions within Lever and Greenhouse. We're official partners with them. We literally have permissions to track the candidates. So there's no pixel, there's no... Chad Sowash: Okay. Zach Roseman: There's no funny business, there's no data issues. There are permissions you can select within the ATS to say, "Yes, give this person permission to know what stage the candidate is at." Chad Sowash: Okay. So now once I see that, do I see the referrers review score at that point? Zach Roseman: You do. But even before that, you as a company set a minimum. You say, "I won't accept referrals and scouts with a score lower than 4.0 or 4.1 or 3.9." You can choose that. And what that does, it creates a world where the scout is really careful about who they refer. 'Cause if they refer crappy people and their metrics drop, they're not gonna be allowed to refer to companies anymore. And so it creates this nice sort of reinforcing cycle where I'm careful of who I refer. Then the companies get the best resumes and candidates and they have higher accept rates. Instead of 1 out of 30, it's about one out of six on Draftboard now. Chad Sowash: Right. All right. So from a go-to-market standpoint, it sounds like you're very closely integrated in with Lever and Greenhouse. Are you just focusing on those two ecosystems to be able to sell and penetrate into, or how are you doing that from a go-to-market standpoint? Zach Roseman: Yeah, so we're official partners with Lever, Greenhouse, Co-meet, Ashby and Workable. Those are the five we decided to start with because we're focused, in the beginning, building out a jobs marketplace or tele-marketplace, you need to focus on a particular category. We chose tech, and those are sort of the five biggest ones in tech. I'm sure you... There's other ones that of course arise, seeing that here and there. But those are the ones that sort of, opens up a whole wide swath of companies to us. Chad Sowash: Okay. So you mentioned it earlier, this feels like a side-hustle platform. So are you mainly seeing recruiters engaging in this? And then, obviously, it's kind of like a little side-hustle for them. Zach Roseman: Interestingly, it's not recruiters. We're mostly seeing doing the side hustle. So, mostly, we're seeing people who are super connectors and people who run professional communities on WhatsApp or Slack or wherever they run their communities, on Meetup, whatever it is. And so those people, for the super connectors, I'm sure you know people like this whenever they meet someone, they're like, you should meet these three other people. And they love making introductions. And when I said that the idea was inspired by my wife, she's introduced 30 people the jobs they actually got, let alone hundreds of jobs, they didn't get, the most she ever got as a thank you, was a bottle of wine. In most cases, the companies don't even send her a thank you note. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Zach Roseman: And so part of this was driven by like me productizing my wife being like, "Hold on." If she can make two grand, which is what the company's paying their own employees, she'd be rich, right? And so we're seeing a lot of people who make introduction in any way saying, "Hey, the candidate's not gonna be mad at me for making introduction?" 'Cause they want the job, right? They'll be thrilled to get the job. Joel Cheeseman: Right. Zach Roseman: The company's happy because, and because they want to hire people faster and they're more than willing to pay the two grand or three grand. 'Cause they've already decided they'll do that for their own employees. So it's a win win win. Joel Cheeseman: What is the time period by which I refer someone and I actually get a check in my account or payment in my account. Zach Roseman: So it's one of our challenges, right, is the timing issue. So I refer you, Joel, where let's say for a job, you look at the job you apply, it takes you a week. You're not gonna apply. It takes you a week to get the interview scheduled, right? Then it's four weeks of the interview process. Then you get an offer, you start two weeks later, and then we give companies the option to set a probation period. How long does the new employee have to work for you before the scout is paid? And anywhere we set it from anywhere from 0 to 90 days. So if a company chooses 90 days, you're talking about four and a half to five and a half months lag between a candidate first starting with you and us paying them. And so part of our challenge is to convince new scouts that we're good for the money, right? And so we've experimented with a bunch of different ideas. Do we give a little bit upfront to make them like, "Hey, you're actually gonna get this on the backend." We have testimonials from scouts that have actually received money already. We've had a few placements. And so yeah, it's a challenge, but they're what... We'll see, I guess that's the answer. Joel Cheeseman: Knowing that, what's the... And you're young, but what would you say is the attrition rate of scouts? Are there committed scouts that are doing it on ongoing basis or is like, "Oh, I know one person and... " I mean, we're in a get-it-now world where I order something online, I get it, in 24 hours and now... Zach Roseman: Yeah. Joel Cheeseman: With your stuff I got to wait months before I get my gratitude. Are there ways that you give badges or like... Chad Sowash: Exactly. Joel Cheeseman: Show them tracking in their account or emails like we're almost there. I mean, how do you slow down the attrition rate, which I guess that would compound. Zach Roseman: You're right about what you're suggesting. So we have... Since we see the candidate status, anytime there's a change in status, we message the scout and say, "Hey, this person moved from stage I to stage II or stage II to stage III." And that gives you that little endorphin push, like of a rush. So you're like, "Oh, that's actually moving forward." Beyond that, we haven't done it yet, but we're gonna be building a leaderboard for scouts to sort of compete with each other, right? And see who's doing the most referrals, the most quality referrals, getting the most applications. In our case, one thing I really care about is reject rate. I actually want the scouts to reject as higher percentage of candidates as possible. 'Cause that means we're sending the highest quality to the companies. Sorry, there was another part to your question that I'm blanking on right now. Joel Cheeseman: Well, it sounds like you'll... Some competitiveness, but you are tracking of every so often, "Hey, we're almost there. We got this point in the process, the payment's coming." Zach Roseman: Exactly. Exactly and you'll be... You have a dashboard where you can see, okay, this is what you have in flight, right? You have three people in interviews, you have 10 applications you need to review, and you have 15 recent activity things, meaning something has changed in the activity recently. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. Now on your site, you have some promotional language, and I'm gonna quote your website here. Earn up to $276,500 in referral bonuses by sharing jobs. Chad Sowash: Whooo. Wow. Joel Cheeseman: Come on, man. 207... Is that a real... Is that real? Or did you like just pull $276,000 out of your up your ass. Chad Sowash: And who, Who did you write a check for that much? Zach Roseman: I don't know what site you're on. Our site says 190... Our site is 197,200. And yes, that if you... We actually have 86 jobs on that, on the site right now. We've had over 200 listed since we launched a few months ago. We've had almost 500,000 of real jobs posted. These are all companies I've physically talked to and led them through the integration process and actually gotten their jobs on. Joel Cheeseman: Do you know how much the leading scout has earned on your site? Zach Roseman: Yeah. So we're super early. So we've had six placements and each one is from a different scout. So the most was $5,000. We've got a couple of people who have earned $5,000 each. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. It is a real argument. Talk about the external referrals. Zach Roseman: Most of our jobs are US. Actually, 80% of them are US. Joel Cheeseman: Well, America is number one. So, obviously, that should be the case. So external... Zach Roseman: I'm still an American citizen. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: We have external referrals and internal, right? Zach Roseman: Yeah. Joel Cheeseman: What's the percentage breakdown? It sounds like you're really focused on the external, people from outside referring inside. But there's a piece of your business that's internal. Talk about the division, the focus, the breakdown. Zach Roseman: Yeah. So right now, we're actually purely external. We have it on the product roadmap to build a feature for companies to manage their internal referral process, which would be essentially just a private label version of what we've already built. And we will build that at some point. But right now, we're focused on the external. And I think, Chad, you asked a few minutes ago, why should I trust an external person? Well, one is because of the reputation score, that it's a data-driven point that can tell you whether the person is a good or a bad scout. But two is because these people have an incentive to make sure they're sending you candidates that you're going to accept, right? It's a monetary incentive. And so it's again, incentives drive behavior. And I think that's sort of the beauty of this model, if I may say so. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Well, I guess you can. You're the CEO. So is Draftboard more than just referrals? Zach Roseman: I guess the short answer is no. Or is there a particular place you're going with that? Meaning... Chad Sowash: Yeah. Do you do more than just referrals? That's the question. [chuckle] Zach Roseman: No, I mean, we're a source of talent. That's the basic idea. We use referrals as the mechanism, but we look at the world as... Lets say like, "Okay, employee referrals tend to have super high accept rates, anywhere from 30% to 80%," right? What percentage of them... Of the candidates that you get referred as a company that you'd actually talk to? Chad Sowash: But your entire business model is predicated on referrals. Okay. Okay, good. So how do I share referrals? I get an XML feed from the applicant tracking system, or you guys scrape the board or what have you? How does that actually work? Just walk me through. You said it takes three clicks, but after those three clicks, if I import 2,000 jobs, well, let's say 500 jobs, then I've got some management to do. So talk me through that. Zach Roseman: You're talking from the company's perspective? Chad Sowash: Yes. The people who are actually spending money with you, yes. Zach Roseman: Right. So from the company's perspective, you go through our onboarding. I sit with you in the onboarding process, like say, authorize a greenhouse there's an OAuth, and then an API token with some of the other ones. It's just an OAuth click. It's literally three clicks. You see on our dashboard, you see all your jobs show up with all of the irrelevant data, the location and the job spec and everything else that's loaded in Greenhouse, that we take that. And then all you do is a screen that shows you, it says, "Okay, what bonus do you want to set for this job?" And there's a button that says list this role. And you can choose to list all your roles. There's a bulk list button, or you can choose select roles to list. And you have different bonuses for each job. And then the next part of the process is now they're listed, and any scout can refer you a candidate. But for you as the company, it's the same experience as getting an application from any other source into your ATS, right, whether it's LinkedIn or your website or Indeed, meaning it comes into Greenhouse for that particular job. The only difference is this, is the source is tagged as Draftboard instead of LinkedIn or website or whatever other source. And we also give you some information about the scout who referred it, right, the first name, the last initial. We're probably going to just give the full name. Zach Roseman: I don't really care about doing the full name if you want it. And their scout's reputation score. And so you get that additional data. But from your perspective, you're going through... You don't have to change anything about your workflow. Your workflow stays exactly the same. So it's really a set it and forget it solution. We also have the ability for companies to do something we call a job sync, where anytime they add a job to Greenhouse, it automatically gets listed on Draftboard at a certain default bonus setting. And so they can choose that bonus setting. So that way, instead of them having to manually go and update Draftboard every time they add a job, it happens automatically. Chad Sowash: Okay. But from the standpoint of being able to go in there, I can have let's say, for instance, all my tech jobs default to $5,000, all my sales jobs to $2,000, so on and so forth, correct? Zach Roseman: Exactly, exactly. Chad Sowash: Okay, okay, okay. So have you ever heard of H3 or a Jobster? Zach Roseman: Jobster, I have. H3, I haven't. Chad Sowash: Okay, how do I get my LinkedIn network involved? How can I get them integrated into this whole process? Zach Roseman: Yeah, so sneak peek of a feature we're gonna be launching called Matchmaker. You're gonna be able to download your LinkedIn connections, upload them to Draftboard, and then we're gonna do matching of your LinkedIn connections with the jobs on Draftboard and start to suggest matches for you. And that's a really critical feature because a lot of people will come to Draftboard, I think Joel, you said this earlier do you have people do one referral or do you have people doing 10 or more referrals, right? And so a lot of people say, "Okay, there's someone I have in mind, I wanna refer them to a job." And they just do that one referral. And then it's just I don't know who else, I can't remember who else is looking for a job for that particular software engineer job. With this, we're gonna be able to say to you, "Hey, these 10 people in your network are a fit for this job. Do you want to share it with them or not?" And so it turns Draftboard from a sort of pulling information out of your brain to hey, pushing information that exists somewhere else to you and sort of packaging it up and ready for you to choose an action which is sharing it with them. Chad Sowash: Okay. Joel Cheeseman: And is that an ongoing, I guess, query that you're gonna do with my network in LinkedIn? In other words, new jobs are posted all the time. Zach Roseman: Yes. Joel Cheeseman: Most of my connections may be in a certain location or maybe a certain profession, but as new jobs in my network grows, will I get an email every week like, "Hey, we scoured your LinkedIn folks and the jobs we have and here are some matches and do you wanna share those with your matches?" Zach Roseman: Exactly. Joel Cheeseman: You're shaking your head, and that's the idea. Zach Roseman: Yeah, 100%. And so there's different ways you can do it. You can either do it based on the jobs. You could say I'm interested in these types of jobs. Then we could say, "Hey, these types of jobs just came up." You have 10 people each. Or you can say, "I wanna find Joe Schmoe a job. Show me jobs for Joe Schmoe." So we'll have like a way for you to say, "Here are the 20 people I care about finding jobs." And then we'll only send you candidates for those 20. Joel Cheeseman: Got it. So Chad took a step or two down memory lane. I'll go a little... A few steps further. So H3, which you mentioned was basically a company that does what you do about 18 years ago. Jobs was another one, Zupka, Yours, Refer.com, Karma One, probably none you've ever heard of but you probably have heard of one called Indeed. So a company called Indeed, little job site global... Global footprint launched Indeed Crowd in 2016, [laughter] which is basically this idea. Companies would put a dollar amount, a bounty, if you will, people could share jobs, etcetera. Two years later, they shut it down for whatever reason. Obviously, it didn't pan out the way that they thought it would. So I guess my question is, how is this time different? How is your company different than all the companies I just named? Zach Roseman: Yeah. So the biggest change is that even five years ago, none of the big ATS, I don't wanna say none, but they either had, or it was much recruiter, they didn't have, or it was much recruiter. The API integrations took into them were much recruiter or didn't exist at all. So I was talking to the team at Greenhouse and like this didn't... The ability to do what we do today and read the stages from them didn't exist five years ago, let alone 10 years ago or 18 years ago. So that's a huge change in the infrastructure of the HR tech space, is that you know this better than me. Every company now wants to integrate with everyone else because if you don't integrate, you're losing customers. And so now everyone has open APIs, they do, and they move from APIs to OAuth and to, in order to make it easier. But this couldn't have happened. The other thing that exists today that I'm sure Indeed could have built, and maybe they did, but that there's amazing payment providers. Like we use Stripe that have literal marketplace products. So we actually don't have to build any of the payment infrastructure. Stripe handles that, right? Zach Roseman: And so when we go to a company we say to them, "Hey, you don't have to worry about issuing a... Collecting a W-9 or issuing a 1099 'cause these are scouts. You're paying the people like independent contractors. We take care of all that. And for us, we actually don't have to take care of all that. Like Stripe takes care of all that. So it's sort of this one solution. And then the other thing is, look, Indeed is Indeed, Indeed has a lot of products. Some of them are competitive with other ATSs. And so it's, it's harder, it's hard to go out and say, "Hey," you are like, "Greenhouse, play nice with me on this one product I have." I was talking to the founder, I won't name the company of a very large old school ATS. And he was saying, "LinkedIn tried to launch an ATS however many years ago." And they just were like sort of a bull in a China shop, and no one wanted to work with them. And so I think you have to be really careful who your partners are, and it helps that we're independent. Joel Cheeseman: So I used to write on this, this topic and a friend of both of Chad and I an Ohio State fan, that's just a side note. Anyway, so when he launched this, there was no social media and there was a thought that, "Well, now that people have these big networks, that that will be the thing that makes this thing work. That didn't pan out. And then I asked him when Indeed dropped its thing, what he thought the reason was. So his comment this is quote, and this is the founder of H3. Quote, "You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make him or her drink." Only 4% of people are actual connectors, perhaps proven by the fact that fewer than 4% of LinkedIn's members are in the 500 or plus connection category. So I'm hearing from you a lot of technical things, but how much is human nature part of this, like being in the job sharing? I'm gonna blast this out to people, or I'm gonna like actually put in the thought work about who would be a good... And how many are we really connected to on LinkedIn that are just sort of passive connections. So what's your opinion on human nature? I mean, I'm an old white guy, so I'm open to the fact that younger people might be more open to this. Talk about the human nature part of this business. Zach Roseman: Yeah, for sure. I don't envision this being there are 300 and what, 30 million Americans. There's no way that all 330 million are gonna be scouts, but we need to do... And I think about the... When I started fundraising, I was very clear with investors, first of all, this is like a 0 or 100. There's no middle ground here. We're a marketplace where they're gonna succeed amazingly or die. And then the second thing is, we're not the easy side of the marketplace, quote, unquote, "Is the companies," right? I've heard this literally dozens of times, why wouldn't I do this? There's no risk, there's no cost. There's no reason for me not to do this. The hard side is the scouts, as you point out, right? Who are the scouts? What's gonna motivate them? Is it just money? Is it esteem? Is it being known as the person in your network who we don't know that yet, right? But the whole vision of draft board is built around building a cohort of Super Scouts in the same way that you think about like eBay Power sellers or Airbnb Power or Super hosts, or even on Uber, right? Zach Roseman: They want their drivers to drive 40 to 50 hours a week. They're not gonna turn down the person who drives five hours a week, but it's not what their whole core business is built around. And so for us... For me, the human nature part is who are the people that have either built a skillset in sourcing talent? So AKA recruiters or former recruiters or laid off recruiters, or people who don't have enough business right now, and they're like, they have a ton of silver medalists. And I say, "Hey, come on to Draftboard and you can place them." It's people who run communities who wanna, who wanna give people in their community, a benefit, right? I have a proprietary source of jobs you can't find anywhere else. And by the way, because I have a 4.7 score, my jobs are gonna be... My referral's gonna be taken more seriously than if you apply on the company website, which is absolutely happening. Companies now look at Draftboard referrals first, 'cause there tend to be higher quality. And then the other thing is, there's super connectors who are already doing this. And so I think the human nature side is both finding the people who are already doing this and are more likely to, but also the companies. They're already offering employee referral bonuses. And so it's a very... It's sort of like they're, "We're not creating anything new under the sun. We're taking existing things and just making it a super simple, easy experience." And yeah. Chad Sowash: Okay. So let's go back to go to market. Who are you focused on, you going direct to brand on this? Are you going to recruitment ad agencies? I mean, how are you actually getting a portfolio or brand penetration. Zach Roseman: Amongst the companies? The company's listing jobs, you're saying? Chad Sowash: How are you actually getting sales? Who are you going to, are you going directly to the brands? Are you going through agencies? What's your focus? How are you doing it? Zach Roseman: Yes, so in the beginning, it was mobilizing my networks. So I spent 10 years in corporate America and built a lot of relationships. And then I had my investors and angels and whatever, and going through all of their networks, being like, "Here are our target companies. Here are the ones that can... You can make an intro to this person." And now we're hiring our first BDR who's gonna do more of like blocking and tackling, just getting... Setting up meetings. But we are... We're staying focused on startup. So really our sweet spot is 30 to 500 employees. We have a few companies that are 1,000 plus like Veer and Formlabs and SeatGeek, and then a bunch that are smaller at 10 employees that are just looking to hire the first one. Chad Sowash: So mainly SMB, you're talking about small to medium sized businesses? Zach Roseman: Yeah, I would say if you're a company over 2000 employees, we're probably not the right fit for you right now, right? Because if you put a hundred jobs on Draftboard, it's too much for us. Chad Sowash: So give me... Yeah. Give me some pricing around the... Because this is an SMB model. Joel Cheeseman: Sounds expensive. Sounds expensive, Chad. Chad Sowash: Yeah, sounds expensive for Joe's Plumbing around the corner. How much is it? Zach Roseman: No, we're not doing SMBs like Joe's plumbing. We're doing like startups. I mean, startups, like plus, I mean whether they're C-stage to series C-stage, series D-stage. Chad Sowash: Okay, still, what's the pricing? Zach Roseman: It's zero, it's free. Chad Sowash: It's free. And the only thing that you pay is you guys take... You take a commission. Joel Cheeseman: Well, companies are paying you. Zach Roseman: No, no, companies aren't paying us. Chad Sowash: So you get... You take a chunk out of the actual commission or like a commission out of the dollars that are paid. Zach Roseman: Yeah, exactly. So the companies don't ever pay us any fees. They list the jobs, it's free. If they hire a candidate, then they pay $3,000. Let's say that's the... They decide on what the bonus is. Let's say they put a three grand bonus. We take 20% of that from the scouts cut, not from the company. And so the company is never paying us a fee. And yeah, that aligns us with the company. It means that like, we don't... We're not trying to get anything more out of them. We're not trying to get them to stay longer. Chad Sowash: All right, Cheesman. Joel Cheeseman: All right, Zach. By the way, plumbers are people too, Zach. [laughter] Plumbers are people too. All right. Zach Roseman: Before I started this company, I was looking at starting a plumbing company. So have no fear, I agree. Joel Cheeseman: I refuse to show you my plumbers crack for the podcast, by the way. So let's go back early days of the internet. Amazon launches affiliate programs. Affiliate programs are huge. They make a ton of sense, right? You don't have to spend the advertising. Let people advertise for you. Let them email, put banner links on stuff. Made perfect sense. And when it came into the employment sector with H3 is the first one I remember, I'm like, "This makes perfect sense. Why spend all this money on recruiters? Why spend money on job postings?" Just empower people to share links to people and track the process. And if they make a hire, then get a check. And I literally did get a check back in 2006 from H3 for a recruiter that I referred to a job. So that was pretty exciting. And I was a little bit shocked when the company didn't pan out. Joel Cheeseman: And then I watched all the other sites that I mentioned come and go. When Indeed did it, I thought, "Man, if they can't do it, no one can do it." But the problem is I still think it's a great fucking idea. To empower people to promote your stuff, you have social media, you have people connected more than ever. But for whatever reason, Facebook didn't change. It didn't turn around. The growth of LinkedIn hasn't turned around. Now, maybe your solution of integrating with LinkedIn, and that's gonna be the secret sauce. Historically, LinkedIn doesn't love it when you create shit like that, and API... It's just rarely ends great. I like it as an internal thing better than I do an external thing, although external things sounds better. But I just... As much as I love the idea, I can't deny history. 20 years of history says this idea does not work. If you're the first one to stick it up, stick it up the ass of history, then good on you. But for me, I can't in good conscience. 20 years of history says this idea is not gonna work. So for me, Zach, again, this is not personal, man. It's a great idea. The world just isn't ready for it. Zach Roseman: I hear you, man. Joel Cheeseman: I hope you're the first Zach. I hope you're the first. Chad? Chad Sowash: Woo, woo. I'm gonna take a little bit different angle on this, Zach. First and foremost, I love that you're focusing on integrations down Funnel, Lever, Greenhouse, etcetera, etcetera. I can tell you, you've never been in HR because HR doesn't trust anyone, let alone referrals, right? I mean, they don't even trust internal, right? So... Zach Roseman: Oh, I've heard. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Not a big trusting group. But so again, I'm a big believer in referrals. I believe referrals can be executed much better and more efficiently, but most companies stumble over all of the referrals that they're getting that are coming in, and they're either number one or number two source of hire. So could the process be better? Yeah. Could we even do more referrals? Well, fuck yeah, but employee referrals aren't a perceived problem, which is why they are never a top three priority and they don't get substantial budget. Well, hopefully, you've got an answer to that by the free aspect. Joel talked about human nature. Well, this is HR nature, which is something that you really need to get your head around, especially when it comes to adoption and history. It's a solution to a problem that the industry doesn't believe really even exists. Chad Sowash: So as we talked about before, we've seen historically companies like Jobster, who I believe first... Their first iteration in 2004 was a referral platform. H3, 2007, the list goes on and on and on. H3 never evolved past just being a referral platform and they died. Jobster had an identity crisis and they died. I believe the answer is somewhere in the middle and coupling the priority pain points with referrals and then looking at different aspects of things that will actually go get you budget. Because last but not least, my friend, the straw that broke the camel's back for me is that you need to charge the damn company. They're the ones with the money. Don't charge the little guy. Don't charge the little guy. So again, from a historical standpoint, from a product and a focus standpoint, you're going to have to slowly edge open that product, Tam. But until then, it's the Firing Squad. Joel Cheeseman: God damn it, Zach. Zach Roseman: Love the feedback. Joel Cheeseman: I hope you're the first one. Zach Roseman: No, it's great. Joel Cheeseman: I hope you're the first one. Chad Sowash: Oh, I wanna see referrals work so badly. So badly, Zach. Joel Cheeseman: It's such a good idea. There's just human nature, something... Zach Roseman: I could address it, but I... It's not... Look, to your point, Chad, it's not a question. I close one-third of companies I talk to. I've talked to 150 heads of talent. It's the highest close rate my investors have ever seen. They literally tell me now, part of that is 'cause it's free. Obviously, their companies are going to close free. Chad Sowash: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's like Indeed closing, getting jobs on their site the first time they came on free, right? That's not a close rate. Zach Roseman: Right, no, but the reason I mentioned it is that all of the companies that when you talk about it, these companies, the biggest problem they have is what we talked about in the beginning. They get 4,000 applications crappy that they have to go through from their team. And as you said, no one's giving them a budget to spend 100 grand on some fancy AI tool that's gonna spot the best candidates that are not. Those tools exist. But unless you're a big corporate like IAC, you're not doing that. And so you have to have a way to filter out the crap from the diamonds. And I think that the referrals for me, again, it's a mechanism to do that. It's not the... I don't claim to have reinvented the wheel here. But yeah, look, I hear your feedback. Joel Cheeseman: Zach, the Firing Squad is over. It's over. When you knock it out of the park, you can come back on and tell us how wrong we were. But until then, my friend, I hope you're the first that proves us wrong. Make this referral thing work. Until then, let our listeners know where they can find out more. Zach Roseman: Joel, I'm gonna make it work for you, specifically, so you can finally regain faith in humanity. You can find us at www.draftboard.com. We'd love to have you on. Joel Cheeseman: In the can, Chad. Another one bites the dust. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.C-H-A-D C-H-E-E-S-E.com.

What's going to happen to all those remote-work unicorns who raised hundreds of millions during the pandemic, now that RTO is back and WFH is out? What's the current state of M&A in HR Tech in 2023, heading into 2024? And when will the IPO dam finally break and throw companies like iCIMS, Greenhouse, Personio and others to the public markets? All great questions, but ones Chad & Cheese aren't exactly proficient in answering. That's why we asked Jim Holzer, managing partner at Drake Star Partners, on the pod. Jim manages M&A and capital raising in the HR tech vertical for Drake Star. A must listen for anyone raising, selling or just surviving this turbulent market. Don't go into 2024 without checking this one out. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. It's your dog Groomer's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always the OH to my IO Chad Sowash. Chad: Yes. Joel: In the house. And today we welcome Jim Holzer, managing partner at Drake Star Partners. He manages M&A and capital raising in the HR tech vertical. Jim, welcome to the Chad Cheese Podcast. Jim Holzer: Thank you. Chad: Drake Star. Jim Holzer: Thanks Joel. [laughter] Chad: M&A. Joel: This has nothing to do with the rapper Drake, right? Let's just get that out of the way real fast. Jim Holzer: It does not, no. Joel: Okay. Chad: No, it's Drake Star... Joel: Drake is not in the M&A of HR tech companies. Just everyone wants to... Chad: That's like, it's like the death star just of M&A. Joel: It is. Chad: It's like they come in and they eat it all up. So, Jim, give us a little Twitter bio about Jim. What makes Jim tick. Jim Holzer: Helping entrepreneurs and great companies achieve their goals. I've, been a banker doing software and tech enabled services banking for several decades. And, I've worked at, some of the large full service investment banks as well as specialized M&A advisory firms. And my focus today is on HR tech. You know, it's one of the most interesting segments of the software and tech services landscape. And I've been at Drake Star for over a decade. I'm a managing partner and shareholder and behind, beyond HR tech. I have a family of two grown kids live in the New York area. And it's, I am a suffering golfer. [laughter] Chad: Aren't we all. Jim Holzer: Aren't we all. Chad: Aren't we all. Joel: Jim loves to party. I can tell that just from that con... Chad: So the HR space, why is the HR space so interesting to you? Jim Holzer: It's been an area that has, had a lot of growth and innovation for a long time. And, you see companies of all types really being able to thrive. So from the innovative, seed stage company to the large public company, there's constantly been innovation. It's been an area also where the economy, the introtech economy, you know, despite being influenced by the overall economy, has done quite well. And you see very active, very active capital markets from the early stage capital to VC to private equity and to public markets. And, so very, very interesting space where, there's always something interesting going on. Chad: So Talk about Drake Star, who, what is Drake Star, 100% percent tech-focused. Give us a little background around Drake Star. Jim Holzer: Yeah. So we're, an international tech-focused investment bank, as you mentioned, but we have local presences both in North America and Europe. There's about, eight offices. We focus on M&A and capital raising only for tech companies, over a hundred bankers. So we're really actually one of the largest dedicated tech groups out there. Like many of our clients we're employee owned. So, we get the entrepreneurial spirit and some of the challenges that entrepreneurs go through, and we try to really help them, guide them on their journey to be successful. Chad: How much is managed assets wise that, that you guys have under your umbrella? Jim Holzer: Okay. So we're not an investment firm. We're an advisory firm. So, you know, what we do is we work on behalf of companies, really two principle areas. One is mergers and acquisitions, you know, mostly, sell side M&A. We could talk about what all that means later. Sure. As well as, you know, raising capital for later stage growth stage companies. Not venture capital, but more kind of growth equity type capital. Joel: He's a matchmaker. Chad: He's a matchmaker. Joel: He's matchmaker. He makes love connections happen. [laughter] Joel: He's the Chuck Woolery, he's the Chuck Woolery of Drake Star. Chad: He's the Tinder of Drake Star. [laughter] He's gonna tell you whether you swipe left or right. And that being said, what a great segue to my hot or not, question. I'd literally like to hear Jim from you, what type of technology are you sick of seeing pitched Joe and I could go on for days around this, but what tech are you sick of seeing pitched, and then what do you see that's hot that you don't see that's pitched enough? Jim Holzer: Well, I think the obvious one that's over pitched, and maybe not, I'm not sick of it. I'm kind of waiting to see where it's gonna end up. But AI, I mean, everyone is talking about AI and, I was at... Chad: Is it in every pitch that you see though? I mean, it's just like AI this... Jim Holzer: It's AI this, AI that, you know, it's almost like, if you remember, I'm gonna date myself a bit here, but in the dotcom era, every company put dotcom at the end of their name. So no, but I, so I think, I think AI is real, but what I'd really like to see, I'm waiting for sitting at the edge of my chair is like, how are some of these solutions actually gonna take hold and add value to employers and to companies and to candidates? Chad: So what's, what, hot? What do you wanna see more of? Joel: You better say VR Jim, you better say VR. [laughter] Chad: Don't do it Jim. Jim Holzer: VR. [laughter] Chad: Don't you do it. Jim Holzer: I think, you know, one of the, some of the things that we're seeing are, you know, I guess a couple areas like skills-based hiring. I think is, is really important. One of the issues that we could talk about that's affecting HR tech, in addition to what's going on in the economy, but there's, there's been this job gap that's, that's been going on for a while. Chad: Oh, yeah. Jim Holzer: And, Right. There's more, more openings and there people to fill them. Right. And, while it's been narrowing with, you know, some of the employment numbers, it's still pretty big. And, you know, maybe it's not really a jobs gap. Maybe it's really a skills gap. Like how do, how do people get the right employees, the right talent? And so we see a lot of companies, going after that. And so I think that's very interesting. And then we're seeing other areas, you know, kind of more topical in line with the economy, like contingent labor and other things like that, that are doing doing okay right now. Doing well now. Jim Holzer: Yeah. Well, I think there's a jobs gap and a skills gap, right? I think both can be, both can be true. Where we're having kind of like a jobs gap, in let's say, for instance, hospitality. That's not really a skills gap per se, but then there are huge skills gaps in, some of the more technical spaces where we're really in need of, different types of skills. So I think that they both can exist. Joel: Jim we're on the sort of the edge of saying goodbye to 2023. What surprised you or you didn't expect in 2023 as you look back on the year? Jim Holzer: I think the thing that was kind of the unknown, and you know, now we're seems to have some light under at the end of the tunnel, is, you know, the impact of the Federal Reserve and their rate high campaign, it was just sort of an unknown and kind of seeing when inflation data, which is what they're tracking, when that would start to moderate. And so we now have seen some moderation and it seems like, a lot of prognosticators are saying that the Fed is kind of the end of their rate raising cycle, and that, you know, and that should be better for the economy. The question is how long do rates stay high? So that, I think that was kind of the big unknown. Yeah that I was been waiting to understand like, when would that, when would we see that kind of the light at the end of the tunnel? Joel: And what's your read on inflation rates? And, you know, money isn't free anymore because we had a parade of unicorns from, let's call it 2020 to 2022. The deals, the oysters, the velocity globals, the remotes got a lot of money. What's the state of those companies right now as they look into 2024? Jim Holzer: You know, if you look at venture as a whole, there is definitely, you know, a lot of money thrown at companies and, things kind of went too, maybe too far in one direction. And now what's happening is, you know, it's a lot, a lot harder to raise capital for the, some of these companies. And so there's a big emphasis on profitability and controlling your own destiny, being cashflow positive. I mean, it's, you know, with the SaaS model, you know, when that, as it's getting established, you can kind of invest in that and get some pretty, pretty amazing growth. But you also have to kind of look at like, how are we as a company, you know, what's our cash flow situation? What's our cash situation? So there's a big emphasis on that. And we've seen the market change. Jim Holzer: You know, everyone talks about the rule of 40s and, you know, which is really the sum of a company's growth rate and their profitability, their free cash flow margin. And so what's happened, there's been a massive correction in the public markets. And what you're seeing now is, you know, companies that maybe traded companies with, let's say a 20 to 30% growth rate and a 10 to 20% free cashflow margin will trade higher than one with a greater than 30% growth rate, or a less than 10% free cash flow margin. And so that's kind of a, a sign that the market is, you know, growth is still very important, but profitability is becoming important as well. Jim Holzer: And you see that in the venture marketplace, whereas the investors wanna see, you know, more, more disciplined, and the companies that were on that old model you were talking about before, some of them it's more difficult. And we've seen, you know, even with some of the IPOs that have happened, we've seen some unicorns, you know, go public at a lower valuation than their last round. Joel: Not in our space, they haven't, you've seen Instacart and some others. Jim Holzer: Yeah. Not, not yet. There haven't been any HR tech ones, but just, you know, the whole, the whole kind of, you know, software. Joel: Put a pin in the IPO question. Chad, what do you got for it? Jim Holzer: Okay. Chad: [laughter] So how will all of that money affect a lot of these big brands? I mean, because there is a thing, as we say on the show, as taking too much money. Joel: The other dynamic, Jim, also, a lot of these companies got a lot of money on the premise that the world was gonna go remote and never go back to the office. And we're seeing that they are going back to the office. So to me it's like a double whammy for these companies in terms of trying to make it your thoughts? Jim Holzer: Yeah. Well, and Venture always, you know, had the requirement that when you take that money, you have a higher hurdle for exit because the investor, you know, especially those early stages, they need to get, for their model to work, they need to get 6, 7, 8X returns. And so, as an entrepreneur, you're signing up for, to grow, to become a much bigger company. And so for some companies that, you know, that's great. If you can become a large business, you know, perhaps large enough to go public or just kind of keep on growing, you know, that could work, but it doesn't work for everybody. And, if you get too caught up in raising lots of money and, higher and higher valuations, then it's just gonna make it harder for you to have a good exit and return for everybody, all the stakeholders. Chad: So let's talk a little bit about the key data points for, acquiring or M&A from your side of the house. As founders that are out there today. They obviously would love to hear from a guy like you to know what the key data points, obviously profits, growth was big. Now it's more, you know, focusing on discipline and profits. What do you see now, and then also with the landscape down the road, is there going to be other points that you think are more important, than, you know, just pure growth. Jim Holzer: Every company's situation is unique, you know, so it's really a combination of all those factors. What you wanna see is a company that is growing and gaining traction in their market with a business model that makes sense and can generate returns. So, you know, what does that mean? It does mean profitability companies, companies can trade off profitability for growth. So a lot of attention when you're selling a company or raising capital is on things people call the SaaS metrics. So what is your gross in net retention, what is your LTV to CAC? What is your payback for CAC? And what do your margins look like? What's your channel strategy? Is it direct? Is it go, Is it partner? So how does all that work together? Jim Holzer: And then, you know, strategically, how does that fit in an ecosystem? Are you in a category that has a big enough TAM that you could be, a product onto itself? Or are you kind of a feature of some other bigger company that eventually will get consolidated? So we look at all that, you know, and the story is always unique based on the company and the segment, and there's not really one size fits all. It's really, you know, building a healthy business, you know, having, you know, a strong team. Teams are really important in technology. Jim Holzer: You know, buyers will, will look to buy a company for a position in the market to fill a product hole, but also to get talent. And a lot of our deals, the team on the company that's getting sold is a, they actually have, you know, enhanced career opportunities and a better opportunity to be part of something bigger, you know and join with other, you know, like-minded colleagues. Chad: Are you seeing a lot more of that, where it's more of an acqui-hire? Yes. They're getting the tech, yes. They're getting whatever portfolio, what have you, maybe filling a features some of a gap that they have within their current organization. Is it mainly the talent? Because I mean, that, that in itself is a pretty big buy, but that talent can also walk out the door. So I mean, there's a huge risk for a lot of companies right there, isn't it? Jim Holzer: Yeah. So we're not really that involved in acqui-hire deals. They tend to be like some of the smaller deals, you know? Chad: Okay. Jim Holzer: Perhaps we talked about some of the, you know, challenge venture back companies, you know, some of them could probably get acquired and maybe, the team might be an interesting, driver. But, you know, in a lot of our deals, it's kind of a combination of the business plus the talent is how I would say it. It's not, it's not just the talent. Chad: Gotcha. Gotcha. Joel: Let's jump into IPOs. Jim. We've been hearing for years the iCIMS, the greenhouses, were going public. The pullback from, you know, after releasing the S1, is the dam gonna break in '24? Are companies just gonna back away from all the IPO talk. I mean, Personio is one that, over in Germany that's now coming to America, they're talking about IPOs. I mean, HiBob is raising a ton of money. The IPO has to, the dam has to break, right. Jim, what's your take? Jim Holzer: So, yeah, I mean, as the economy improves, as interest rates moderate as the stock market recovers, you're gonna see more IPOs. And you know, that that should be, I'm expecting a better IPO market in 2024. You know, whether or not some of these big companies, you know, iCIMS Personio, HiBob, etcetera, the ones you mentioned, will get out, you know, is gonna be more, it'll be market specific. It'll be a better market environment, but also company specific. So it's gonna depend on where they are. You know, there are, there are also, you know, opportunities, for some of these companies to do more of a private equity type transaction to get an exit. You know, obviously iCIMS has, you know, several private equity firms in there. But obviously as you get bigger and you, as we talked about earlier, and you have, you know, really high valuations, it becomes harder to do some of those. Chad: So from the Drake Star HR tech report, let's go ahead and jump into that for, and this was just released when, Jim, this is pretty new stuff. Jim Holzer: Yeah. It came out last week. We do a quarterly, you know, HR tech report. We look at different sectors. We look at M&A activity, financing activity. Yeah. We try to spotlight, we, a lot of times we'll invite a guest and we'll try to spotlight, you know, an area that's interesting. Chad: So I think the thing that you said earlier that I thought was incredibly interesting, that is that there's innovation in this segment. And there is, there's no question. But without adoption, that really doesn't matter. And from... Jim Holzer: Absolutely. Chad: From your data, 63% of HR leaders intend on using generative AI to improve efficiency. Why only 63%? And to you, is that like a downer? I mean, because this is a large market and only 63% of the market is looking to actually go into what everybody's talking about, which is AI, and it's on every one of those fricking presentations that you see out there. Joel: And we wonder why CareerBuilder is still in business. [laughter] Jim Holzer: Yeah. I mean, I don't know why it's only 63%. You know, perhaps some of the companies have their heads down, they were focused on what they were focused on and they're are not gonna go after the AI hype. But I think, you know, really, it'll be interesting. As I said earlier, I don't know if you all have any predictions, but how will it, how will this settle out and where will we see adoption? Yeah you're right. There's innovation, but also you need the adoption for it to work. Joel: Oh, we always have predictions, Jim, and what the market says about our predictions. Joel: 60% of the time, it works every time. [laughter] Chad: And then also on the business side of the house, 37% of HR leaders are exploring AI to cut costs. You would think that that would be a much larger, I mean, especially when you're talking to the business, right? If you're trying to look for budget, the way to say that this budget's gonna help is it's here to cut costs. So do you think that HR themselves need to be schooled on what the really the aspects of business are that they should be focusing on? Because this 37%, that should be 99.9%, right? Jim Holzer: Yeah. HR and the technology landscape, we constantly see automation to improve processes, improve compliance, you know, you name it. And so yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that, the AI should be a big part of that. So yeah. I'm kind of, I'm also wondering why it's only 37% Chad: Yeah. RPA AI, whatever it is, I don't care. And I almost think, and tell me what you think is you start to look at all these presentations and you're dealing with these startups that, the process efficiencies are built in. And that's what many HR companies are looking for. They're not looking for themselves to create AI, and/or to adopt. They're just looking to have this baked into their newest platform. Jim Holzer: Yeah they're looking to have it baked in. You know, some of them, you know, board members might say, well, what's our position on AI? We need to have a position on AI. And so, you know, maybe that's why you're seeing a lot of hype 'cause all of a sudden the dam broke and people are saying, yeah, we have to do something with AI. Joel: Jim. There's been layoffs recently, most notably LinkedIn laying off some 670 or so people, we talked about Oyster, another sort of unicorn from a couple years ago that's laid off a lot of folks SeekOut, I think, recently, so I could go on and on, but how does someone in your shoes look at layoffs? Does, do you say weakness in the business? Do you say smart business decision? Do you say automation is coming in? Talk about how you look at layoffs from your point of view. Jim Holzer: Yeah I mean, the layoffs obviously are a sign that the business is not performing up to expectations whatever the budget is. And they're making adjustments for it. I think again, it's kind of case specific and what's the magnitude? Are they, is it large scale layoffs or is it, you know, some pruning, what have you. But, you know, clearly, you know, we talked about the funding market's changing, and that's one of the tools that companies and management will use to respond to that. Joel: When you say funding has changed, money isn't free anymore. Interest rates are higher. And some of the big raises that we've talked about on the show, HiBob, Harry, Employment Hire recently, these are pretty big rounds. Do you look at those and say, those are really healthy companies because to be able to raise money in this environment, you really have to have your act together. It's sort of like the real estate market from '06 to '16. Like, you had to have good credit, you had to have a job, you couldn't just get money for free. Do you look at these rounds now and say, these are really healthy companies because the hurdle they have to clear is much higher than it was in in 2020? Jim Holzer: Yeah, I mean, the companies are performing to raise capital's environment. You have to be performing. And, you know, the other thing that's, you know, implicit, you have to maybe look a little deeper into the round. These firms that have investors, the investors, you know, provide a level of support. So when they, when a brand name investor comes in, they're not just necessarily coming in for that round. They're making a commitment to support the company. So you need to look at did they raise more capital? Are there new investors involved? What is the valuation compared to the last round? That's not always, all that information isn't always public, but I mean, that would, you know, sort of indicate how they're performing. But I'd say yes, in general, you know, companies like HiBob and others that are raising capital are, you know, likely performing. Chad: I've got two quick questions to round this out Jim. So first and foremost, we're seeing a lot of companies who've taken a lot of money who have an overinflated TAM. And these are what I like to call, I don't know, lies. [laughter] I mean, you've got all of this bloat Of companies who are marketing that they have this vaporware. Now it could be aspirational, there's no question, but it seems incredibly undisciplined to me. And I would like to know what you guys see when you see these companies come in, with large valuations, but they're at a TAM, that there are no way that they can actually cover that. That's question number one. What do you guys do? Is this an advisory scenario where you have them like close and become more disciplined? What's the key there? Jim Holzer: So, yeah, I mean, that's a question an investor or buyer will ask is what your view of the TAM? And we look at that and we try to assess is it credible or not, and advise them like maybe we should change our assumptions a bit or, maybe it looks good. So, yeah, so it's an important thing and it's as important as any other aspect of the company. You need to, we need to present it in a credible way and we know what investors and buyers look at. So before we take a company to market, we spend a lot of time looking at all those different aspects, Tam being one of them, and trying to explain it in a credible and transparent way. Chad: Gotcha. Gotcha. So my last one's about founder deal breakers. So do you have any stories, anonymous stories? Joel: You can name names Jim. Chad: If he wants to. That's entirely up to him, but I wanna hear some stories, some founders like Antics are really bad decisions that just stop the deal dead. Jim Holzer: I remember once I did a deal and, it was a recap where the founder was going to, take some money off the table and get capital to grow. And he never told us that he was being audited by the IRS. Chad: So ouch. Jim Holzer: When we were like very close to closing, all of a sudden he gets a very large fine and penalty from the IRS and needless to say that, that killed the deal. [laughter] Joel: Wow. [laughter] that escalated quickly. Chad: Okay. That's a good story. Jim Holzer: And it's... Joel: Jim, my question isn't nearly as entertaining, but I asked you to look back at '23, you mentioned IPOs in '24, but gimme some predictions for '24. As we head into a new year, what do you expect to see in the M&A space and investment space? Jim Holzer: So, yeah, I think '24, and we're starting to see this happen already just based on, you know, discussions we're having and new clients that we're taking on. I think M&A is gonna be stronger. There has been, even in spite of the turbulence this year, there has been a good demand, strong demand for good companies that are performing. By definition, there's less of those. Jim Holzer: And you have, you know, strategic buyers that have growth plans and have capital that wanna make acquisitions. You have private equity that wanna make acquisitions. So, you know, even though '23, like our, the quarterly M&A volume is probably at 20% less than '21, which is a high watermark. There's still like 34% more deals in 2019. And so we're kind of, we're expecting that to continue the fundraising market on private placements has been more challenged. Jim Holzer: There's been more of a decline there, you know, both, you know, versus '21 and 2019. I think as things settle out, companies may be adapt their business models to, "the new normal". I think we'll see some improvements there, but I'm expecting probably a more active M&A market and probably an improving financing market, but still may take a while for things on the financing side to really heat up. Joel: Are there gonna be a lot of clearance rack sales? 'Cause I think that that's what everybody's looking for? Jim Holzer: I mean, there could be, but the companies that were challenged and have issues on capital, they wanna sell and they need to sell, but buyers are still pretty careful. So some of them might happen, but, the buyers out there that are active and driving the market are, want good businesses that don't necessarily wanna take on something that might be risky or, you know, maybe heading in the, continuing to head in the wrong direction. So I think there'll be a lot of companies that will see, you know, that are troubled, that will seek a sale. The question is how many of them will actually get done? Joel: Give me one company that'll IPO in '24. Chad: Drum Roll please. Jim Holzer: Good question. Chad: Just a prediction Jim, we're not gonna hold you to it. It's okay. Jim Holzer: I'm not sure. [laughter] Jim Holzer: Is that okay? Joel: Oh, come on Jim. Chad: I'm gonna call step star. I'm gonna call step star. Joel: Come on Jim. [laughter] Alright, that is, that's Jim Holzer, everybody from Drake Star Partners, he's a managing partner. Drake, for our listeners who wanna know more about you or maybe some startups out there that are looking for money or wanting to sell, where would you send them? Jim Holzer: Send them to our website, drakestar.com or to my LinkedIn profile. Joel: Easy enough. And if you ever wanna talk about '80s basketball, collegiately. Jim's your guy. If you know in the green room, Chad, that is another one in the can, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead, now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Recorded live at the HR Tech Conference from the Fuel50 booth in Las Vegas, Chad & Cheese sit down with Taylor Weiss, a Technology Investor at PeakSpan Capital. Taylor discusses her role, preferences for startups, emphasizing the importance of honest, succinct pitches. The conversation explores tech founders' ages, backing the right founder, excitement for innovative solutions in HR Tech, and leveraging AI for career advancement. Taylor stresses honesty's significance in career progression, proposing early education on self-awareness. She advises startups to align with investors' ethos and highlights PeakSpan's focus on alignment with entrepreneurs. To learn more about Fuel50, visit https://fuel50.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Chad: Coming to you live from the Fuel50 booth at the heart of HR Tech, it's the Chad and Cheese podcast. We are diving deep into the world of HR technology, tackling workforce challenges with innovative solutions, and we'd like to give special thanks to Fuel50, the scienced-based talent marketplace that bridges skills gaps, unlocks hidden potential and supports better retention and engagement. Let's do this. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah. What's up everybody? It is your poker dealer's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel. Joined as always, the Paris to my Treasure Island, Chad. Chad: Yes sir, so classic. Joel: We are recording live from the Fuel50 booth at HR Tech in Las Vegas. And we are excited to welcome Taylor Weiss, technology investor at PeakSpan Capital to the podcast. Hello Taylor. What's up? Taylor Weiss: Hello. Hello. How are you guys? Thank you so much for having me. Joel: Relax. It's okay. It's okay. Relax. [laughter] So our listeners probably don't know who you are. Taylor Weiss: Thank you. Joel: Give us the Twitter bio. Give us the elevator pitch. You get pitched all the time. Give us your pitch. Taylor Weiss: I do get pitched all the time, yeah. Joel: Tell us about Taylor though. Long walks on the beach. You like hiking? I mean, what does the inner Taylor look like? Taylor Weiss: How did you know? Joel: See, okay. Taylor Weiss: Wow. No. I'm a senior associate, at PeakSpan Capital in San Francisco, doing this for a little over half a decade, in investing growth stage software companies. I absolutely love it. And I do love long walks on the beach with my dog and... Joel: And what's your dog's name? Taylor Weiss: Asri, yeah. Joel: Asri? Taylor Weiss: Asri. Joel: Oh, okay. Taylor Weiss: Yeah. Joel: How'd you come up with Asri? Chad: Asri? Yes. Let's get... Joel: How'd you come up with the Asri. Yeah. Taylor Weiss: I was in Bali. I actually used to live there. Joel: You were in Bali? Taylor Weiss: I lived in Bali. Joel: Holy shit. That's awesome. Taylor Weiss: For a segment of my life. Joel: Wow. Taylor Weiss: A very short summer. And there's a word in Balinese called Asri a A-S-R-I. And it means a calming presence within nature. Joel: Nice. Taylor Weiss: And a sort of happiness. And I put a U in there so that Americans would be able to pronounce it correctly. [laughter] And that's what I named my dog. Joel: So what is the antithesis of that? Because that's what Joel is. Taylor Weiss: Okay. [laughter] I don't know. Chad: Be careful. We're just starting the interview. [laughter] Be nice. Taylor Weiss: Is he mean to you like this all the time? Chad: This is how this works. [laughter] It's all good. It's all good. Taylor Weiss: I thought you were the Paris to his Treasure Island. What's going on here? Joel: I know. I'm supposed... Chad: He'd like to see my treasure island. You know what I'm saying? [laughter] Taylor Weiss: When in Vegas, maybe. Joel: Moving on... Chad: Where are we? I wanna point out something for the kids. Joel: Yes. Chad: You said half a decade, which is a great way to make you sound more... Joel: Yes. Chad: More experienced. Joel: 6 years, yes. Chad: Than your... Not five year... Half. Joel: I love it. Chad: Half a decade. So for the kids out there, that's much better than five years. Joel: I love that. Chad: I love that. I do love that. Good for you. Good for you. Taylor Weiss: He's six and a half, seven years, so. Chad: Which I'm sure as the technology investor, being younger, talking to the young founders is a positive. So talk about your role as the technology investor at PeakSpan. Taylor Weiss: Yeah. Now, it's wonderful to talk to younger founders. We have a... Amazing company, that was started by some younger founders called Arist, who does learning, micro-learning in the flow of work. And being a younger founder, being a younger investor, I absolutely love it because you can really just understand exactly where they're coming from, you know what they're thinking and kind of where they came from and why they started these businesses. But it's not always a positive because when you're... Chad: Okay. [laughter] Taylor Weiss: A young investor, you're talking to folks who are a lot older, a lot more experienced. So it's... Joel: Do you have older versions of yourself where you kind of play your good cop act or? Taylor Weiss: Of course. Chad: And is this on the founders' side? Taylor Weiss: Absolutely, Chad. Joel: Yeah. Okay. Taylor Weiss: I definitely do. Joel: See. [chuckle] Chad: And this is on the founders side. Taylor Weiss: On the founders side for... Chad: That are pitching you for capital. Taylor Weiss: Yeah. We have older founders, younger founders. Chad: Yeah. So what's the average age of a tech founder these days? Taylor Weiss: That is such a great question and I haven't really thought about it. I've never gone into a meeting and thought, "Wow, this person is over the average age." Chad: Just role the dice, give me a... Taylor Weiss: Of a founder, probably... Chad: Give me a ballpark eyeball number. Taylor Weiss: Probably... Joel: 30. Taylor Weiss: I would say. Yeah. Mid thirties, forties. I would say I have seen a lot of younger founders within the more recent years. And I love it. I think folks are more empowered to start their businesses. Joel: Yes. Taylor Weiss: At a younger age, people are dropping out of college and starting their businesses right after everything happened with Stanford, Harvard, Bill Gates, all of that, so. Joel: So tell us what excites you most about talking to founders on a daily basis? Because there are... Taylor Weiss: Oh, so many things. Joel: Huge issues, huge problems that have been around for decades, centuries in some cases. What excites you about finding the solutions? Taylor Weiss: It's such a great question because there's so many things to be excited about. I think what I love about this job is getting up every single day knowing that I get to go meet, talk to, and work with some of the most brilliant minds or the most brilliant future minds of technology that's going to be advancing the world as we see it today. Joel: So what part of that excites you the most? Taylor Weiss: Oh. The eccentricity of all the founders. The constant drive. Joel: Talk to me about solutions though. All that stuff. They should all have that. Chad: But this is interesting. She's really focused on the jockey... Joel: Well, which is... Chad: And not the horse. Joel: Which I agree with 100% because I believe, personally, and tell me what you think, that founders make the company. Chad: Yeah. Is it the jockey or the horse? Where do you... Where do you stand on that? Taylor Weiss: I think in the beginning it's definitely the jockey, it's the founder, because that's really what you're backing in the beginning. You don't have much data... Chad: Yeah. Taylor Weiss: To go off of. Once you've got some data, you've gotten some customers, you've gone through a few renewal cycles, then you're backing both of them. When you're in the earlier stages like I am, you have to make sure that you're backing the right founder. So that's where we're focusing on today. Of course, being in that emerging growth category, you're kind of getting to the stage of go to market mechanization where you will be backing the horse and the jockey. But no, it's a great question. I'll go back to answering it. What am I excited about? Solutions. So we're at HR Tech, I am excited about finding companies that are able to give folks a career that they love and doing that in ways that hasn't been done before. And I think that you can do that in so many different ways, right? You can leverage AI to really just push the envelope on understanding what skills are needed for a job. You can push on, pay transparency and make sure that your entire culture is being valued and being paid correctly and equitably. You can push on engaging your employees and retaining them and making sure that you're creating a place where people wanna be. So there's multiple different segments of what people are doing to create a forever home and a forever career for folks like you. For folks like me, for folks like you. That's what excites me. Joel: So we talked earlier about like DNA, right? You want to try to sequence the DNA, right? Which I think a lot of companies have tried over the years and they failed dramatically. How do you think we get to the point where we can effectively find that DNA, that skills, DNA, that culture DNA of that person, and then start to plug it in, because I think that's a hell of a lot harder than actually mapping the genome itself, right? Taylor Weiss: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the topic that he's talking about is in medicine, you can map the genome and you know exactly what is there. And from knowing that you know it's good for, you know it's bad for you in your work and in your career, a lot of the time in a job description, it might not be the skills that are needed. Or in a career, it might not be what's best for you. So if we're able to drill down into, honestly, what are my skills? What aren't my skills, what could they be? And then from the other side, look at what does this job need? What are those skills? How can I develop that within talent? And how can I foster a culture and community that breeds transparency and happiness and engagement and continues in that flow forever? And so being able to execute on that through technology is the question. How does that get solved? I don't know. But I think AI is going to be leveraged in there somewhere. Joel: Yeah. Taylor Weiss: 100%. And the way to do it is really understanding through honesty and transparency and equality. Joel: I think honesty is the hard part, right? Taylor Weiss: Honesty is the hard part. Joel: Because what candidates are honest on their resume and through the interview and what companies are honest in what they actually need, and if they're transparent, what their real culture is. So is that really almost like the missing ingredient is honesty from both sides of the tracks? And if it is, how the hell do we get people to tell the truth? Taylor Weiss: I have an answer for you. Joel: Okay. Taylor Weiss: And I think it has come from... Chad: Just make sure it's truthful. [laughter] Taylor Weiss: It is. This is the most open and honest and vulnerable I've been, no, but I think the honest answer for you is, before you get into your career, you're not honest because you don't know yourself, right? Joel: Yeah. Taylor Weiss: When you start to get into your career, you figure out what you like, what you don't like. It's like dating, you date a few people, you figure out what you like, what you don't like. You find someone to marry you, you settle down, you figure out your life. Joel: Don't say Tinder for jobs. Don't say Tinder for jobs. [laughter] Taylor Weiss: No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. Please don't associate my name with that. [laughter] But I think as you get into your career, you figure out what you like to do and what you're good at, and you're able to become more honest with yourself maybe two years, three years, four years, five years into your career. What if we could push that into the education system when you're interviewing for jobs? So we could go to universities and we could push that, "Hey, you know what? Here's what you're good at. Here's what you're not good at." And have that life experience come a little bit earlier. And that honesty might therefore come a little bit earlier on both the applicant and the employer side. So I think just pushing that honesty earlier in that lifecycle might be a way it could happen. Chad: We have a lot of companies that listen to our show and a lot of startups who are looking to raise money, looking to get in front of people like you. What advice would you give them? One, in terms of how do I get in front of you? And how should the conversation go when I do get the facetime? Taylor Weiss: How do you get in front of me, man? Go for it. Just go for it. I really like to talk to everybody that I can. Chad: Yeah. Taylor Weiss: That's why I'm sitting here with you guys because I just love talking, as you can tell. I think the best way to get in front of an investor is to be focused on what you're doing, know your product, be able to have your elevator pitch down in like 30 seconds, two minutes or three minutes. Figure out which one you need to do. And when you do get in front of an investor, I think the most important thing is really just like I said before, just knowing exactly what you're trying to execute on and... Chad: Yeah. Taylor Weiss: Know what you're not good at and what you're asking for. Chad: So tips for a good deck that I show you. Give us some quick pointers. Taylor Weiss: Short. Chad: There it is. How short? Taylor Weiss: Easy to understand. [laughter] Chad: Give us some context. 1 slide, 5, 10? Taylor Weiss: Look, I absolutely love a thick deck that I can get into and it's really juicy and it gives me a lot of information and detail, but I also love a short one where I can understand it really quickly. So if I have maybe a three to five page deck... Joel: Okay. Taylor Weiss: That's wonderful. I think that's great. Joel: And keep the juicy deck for later. Taylor Weiss: And then we can dive in. But I think a three to five page deck that is very focused. You're laughing at me. Chad: No. Joel: It's okay. It's just because we're both... Chad: Save me Chad. Save this. Save this. Joel: We're both 12-year-old kids. Chad: Yes, we're children. Joel: So here's the thing that I think is interesting because you are not right. Right? Your funds are not right for certain founders and... Taylor Weiss: Sure. Joel: And certain organizations, how do they know which organizations, which investors to actually approach because there are so many that are out there. How do they know? I mean, are you guys pretty forthright? Like look, here's... You have to meet these five bullets. If you meet these five, we're there, is pretty much all investment firms like that or no? Taylor Weiss: No. Joel: No. Okay. Taylor Weiss: I don't think that... Joel: Okay. Taylor Weiss: All investment firms are like that. Joel: Okay. Taylor Weiss: I think a lot of investment firms are looking for the same type of thing, which is high growth, high retention, potentially profitability in the later stages. Joel: Yeah. Taylor Weiss: I think what's most important to PeakSpan is alignment with the entrepreneur. Joel: Okay. Taylor Weiss: And knowing what firm to look for and who to talk to, I think comes with conversations with folks at the firm. And you'll talk to PeakSpan and in one conversation know who PeakSpan is and you will know if... That this is the firm that's right for you or not. Joel: Should that be the standard for every founder that's out there, so they're not wasting their time with some investors? Taylor Weiss: Yeah. Joel: If they don't know from the first call, then it's probably not the one for them. Taylor Weiss: I think I can stand by that because at PeakSpan within the first call you will know, within the first 20, 30 minutes of talking to us if we're the right firm for you. Joel: Got you. Chad: Taylor, thanks for hanging out with us in the Fuel50 booth here. Joel: Yeah. Chad: For our listeners that want to get in touch with you, maybe shoot you a juicy deck, where would you send them? Taylor Weiss: You can go to my LinkedIn or you can send it to my email taylor@peakspancapital.com. Joel: Nice. Chad: This was fun, Chad. Taylor Weiss: Thank you so much for having me guys. Joel: Of course. Chad: Thanks for joining us. That's another one in the can from the Fuel50 booth at HR Tech in Las Vegas. We out. Joel: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The Podcast, the Chad the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, swiss, so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for Grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

Recorded live at the HR Tech Conference from the Fuel50 booth in Las Vegas, Chad & Cheese are joined by Keith Sonderling, EEOC Commissioner. We're talking the impact of AI and technology on HR and employment, including issues like remote work accommodations, discrimination claims, and the increasing use of generative AI. Sonderling breaks down the importance of considering the legal and ethical implications of AI in the workplace and urges HR pros to engage in the interactive process when addressing accommodation requests. He also discusses the rise in retaliation claims and shares details about the EEOC's first AI-specific case involving a hiring website. To learn more about the EEOC, visit www.eeoc.gov. Commissioner Sonderling can be found on LinkedIn at www.linkedin.com/in/keith-sonderling. To learn more about Fuel50, visit https://fuel50.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Chad: Coming to you live from the Fuel50 booth at the heart of HRTech, it's The Chad & Cheese Podcast. We are diving deep into the world of HR technology, tackling workforce challenges with innovative solutions and we'd like to give special thanks to Fuel50, the science-based talent marketplace that bridges skills gaps, unlocks hidden potential and supports better retention and engagement. Let's do this. Music Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. It's your parole officer's favorite podcast, AKA The Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman, joined as always, Chad Sowash. We are live... Chad: Hello. Joel: At HRTech from the Fuel50 booth and we are happy to welcome for his fourth appearance... Chad: Fourth! Joel: On our show, the fifth one when he gets a velvet jacket. Chad: Going for the jacket. Joel: He gets a jacket. So he's on his way. Keith Sonderling, EEOC commissioner. Keith, welcome to the podcast again. Keith Sonderling: Thank you for having me back. Chad: Friend of the show. Keith Sonderling: For the fourth time. I really appreciate it. Joel: Friend of Chad and Cheese, he's a Focker. He's a proud Focker. Keith Sonderling: And that's right. And I also have to mention, of course, at HRTech in a full suit and tie for The Chad & Cheese Podcast... Joel: Yeah, you don't stick out at all. Keith Sonderling: I see you're your cool T-shirts. Chad: So it was funny because he was coming down the escalator yesterday when we were meeting him just to kind of say, hey, we're going to check out tomorrow. Joel: It was kind of a Trumpian coming down the escalator... Chad: He's coming down the escalator. He didn't have the tie on. Joel: With the Sbarro pizza in the background. Chad: And it was funny because Joel was like I can't believe he's wearing a suit. I'm like of course he's wearing a suit. Keith Sonderling: Got to play the part. Joel: So Keith, it's your fourth show. Some people don't know you. Just give us a quick Twitter bio about you and what you do. Keith Sonderling: Sure. I'm Keith Sonderling, Commissioner at the United States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Chad: That's a mouthful. Keith Sonderling: EEOC, as you all in HR know it. Chad: There you go. There you go. Keith Sonderling: The charge of discrimination coming across your desk and that's us. Before joining the EEOC, I was the Acting and Deputy Administrator at the Wage and Hour Division. Chad: That sounds like fun. Keith Sonderling: Also something very familiar to HR professionals. And before that, I was an employment lawyer in Florida defending HR professionals... Joel: There you go. Keith Sonderling: In cases against the same government agencies. So I've seen both sides of the equations and... Chad: Both sides. Both sides. Joel: And a Florida grad. We don't have confirmation on the Tim Tebow tramp stamp, but we will eventually get him to a pool where we find out what's going on. Chad: What's the name of the mascot? What's that gator? Is that... Joel: Gators. Keith Sonderling: Albert and Alberta. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Wow, that's edgy. Chad: So do you have Albert between the shoulder blades? Keith Sonderling: That's a question I don't have to answer. Joel: Yeah. So let's jump into it. Dude, you're everywhere. You're at Salesforce. You're at LinkedIn. You're here at HRTech. That's something that most past commissioners don't do. What's your goal? What are you finding? What are you hoping to learn and get out of all this traveling? Keith Sonderling: It's really important for me to get out and leave DC because the action is happening around the country. And if I stay in the Washington DC bubble, I'm not going to be able to learn what HR professionals, what tech buyers, what tech developers, what tech funders, what the practical applications of these really advanced HR software and workplace technology tools, which as you know I believe is the future, is where all this is going. I'm not going to be able to be able to give the guidance and regulate in this area if I don't understand the community, if I don't understand what the concerns are, if I don't even understand what the products are that are being offered. Chad: Yeah. Keith Sonderling: So many times in DC, it's just hypothetical. Well, I believe tech vendors are making these kinds of products that are going to potentially discriminate and do this. And then you come to these shows and the reality of it is that technology doesn't even exist and they don't even, they can't even make programs that do what they're being accused of doing in Washington DC. Joel: Yeah. Keith Sonderling: So that's why it's so important for me to get out to talk to people to walk around these booths to really work with the vendors and help them in a sense too of saying that here's the problem in HR you're trying to solve. All of these problems as you both know have significant legal implications and how can I help give those tools and guidance based upon long-standing laws, nothing new here to actually have them be able to develop the technology to sell the technology and then more importantly the people buying the technologies, the companies, the HR departments, the questions they need answered as well when they buy all these products and suddenly it's in their portfolio. Chad: Yeah. Keith Sonderling: And then also most importantly we can't forget the users of these products, right? Who are the consumers here? It's the employees, it's applicants. Chad: Yeah. Keith Sonderling: And you know that's who we protect at the EEOC as well... Chad: For the impact, right? Keith Sonderling: The impact of that, so you can see how it really it's the entire ecosystem and it's so important for me to learn all the different perspectives that come with that or we won't be able to do our jobs in DC. Joel: Are you doing a secret shopper kind of thing, because you stick out like a sore thumb. [laughter] Keith Sonderling: I probably shouldn't have worn the full suit. Joel: Hi, I'm HR, here to ask you about your unbiased solution... Chad: Would you like a Chad & Cheese t-shirt? Keith Sonderling: Maybe I need to go a little more undercover but no. Chad: There's a lot of fear around AI. We're seeing it in DC, we're seeing it throughout practitioners are afraid. I it's one of the things where you are now digging into it. Should they be that afraid of AI and large language models? Keith Sonderling: The fear that concerns me or they shouldn't be afraid, they should just say, well, okay how are we using this? Chad: Yes. Keith Sonderling: What purpose are we using it for and how is it going to impact my workers? And that's the questions that they should be thinking about when they're buying, when they're figuring how to develop this and those are long-standing questions that HR professionals and talent acquisition has been asking for any kind of recruitment tool. Chad: Yeah. So it's no different. Keith Sonderling: But before AI, before computers, before any of this was on the internet, when you're just doing employment assessments on pencil and paper, there were considerations there. Is this actually going to make a productive workforce or is this going to be a tool that discriminates and that outside of technology has existed for a long time. We need to just go back to that thinking when it comes to these technologies. Here's what I know in HR, here's the impacts of whatever program I'm doing and now because of the scale of Generative AI, the scale of technology, it's just much higher stakes. Chad: That's the key, right? So when we moved from paper and pencil, paper and pen applications to the internet, we saw huge scale, huge in scale, so we were able to get more qualified and more candidates into our systems, but we couldn't manage that very well which is where the black hole came from and there are also regulations and things, the internet applicant rule, a lot of things happened because of that, but that scale was like step one. This is like the next step of scale, right? So we've seen this before and this is what I'm hearing from you. We've seen this before. Don't be afraid. We have to be able to understand, where you guys come in to educate and then enforce if the education's not taking. [laughter] Joel: And then arrests. Keith Sonderling: And then arrests. Wow. Joel: He has handcuffs in his back pocket. Chad: I don't think I've seen anybody... Joel: So you better behave yourself, Chad. Chad: In an orange jumpsuit, due to the EEOC. Have we? Keith Sonderling: Yet. Chad: Yet. Oh yet. [laughter] Joel: Please let us know when they're putting that out. Keith Sonderling: I'll give you a warning. But you know, in all seriousness, relating to issues like for Generative AI now and all the buzz at these conferences is how Generative AI is gonna make your workers more effective. How you'll be able to eliminate positions by incorporating Generative AI. And in your podcast, you talk about all the time, about all the newspaper articles saying X amount of employees are gonna be laid off or a company's saying, well, we're gonna completely not hire for this position anymore because we could use Generative AI. What we're seeing with some of the striking workers in Hollywood related to fears of Generative AI but let's just break that down what it's actually doing to where HR professionals and talent acquisition understand. So if you're saying, if you're in TA now and your boss is saying, okay, we're no longer going to hire for this position because we're gonna use Generative AI, or you're on the other side of the house, we're saying now we need to lay off these workers because the computers can do it faster. Joel: Yeah. Keith Sonderling: Who is that gonna impact? Right? So if you're laying off certain groups, what are the breakdowns on protected characteristics such as race, sex and ethnicity and how is it gonna impact those groups? So before you're saying, well, let's just wipe out this entire team. You think about how much money companies spend on diversity, equity and inclusion, getting in young, new, diverse, talented workers from applicant pools that they've never seen before. So you spent millions and millions of dollars and all this software to get in a diverse workforce. Now you have a decision to say, okay, we have Generative AI. We can now replace this workers who's getting impacted from these reduction in workforce. We've seen it before. Forget technology. First in, first out. Keith Sonderling: Older workers who are making a lot more than some of the younger workers because they've been there longer. And that's the same implications that's gonna happen when you're talking about using Generative AI. So if you don't do it carefully, right? A theme we've talked about before, just the amount of care and time and effort it needs to take when integrating these softwares, what are you gonna have? You're gonna lay off a whole group, which is now gonna be your most diverse group that you've just done through your recruiting. And the impacts of that are gonna be discriminatory. Or you're saying, well, the older workers, they may be impacted because they don't understand the technology as much. We don't wanna spend more resources to go out and train them. That can be age discrimination. And that is not much different than we've seen in reduction in workforces in the past. How certain groups get broken down. So I think there just needs to be a lot extra care when you're talking about the Generative AI replacing workers or even making workers more efficient, right? Think about that. Now, ChatGPT is gonna make your job 80% more efficient. Well, you need to learn how to do it and that may be difficult for disabled workers if they don't have the accommodations necessary. So again, it's a lot of those basic HR principles that we can't lose sight of just because it's new technology. Chad: So I'm gonna flip the, the script real quick. One of the reasons why disabled workers are having a moment right now is because they were able to work remote, right? Now, we have all these companies who are moving everybody back into the offices and that is not something that many of these individuals can actually do. So therefore from your standpoint, are you actually, you and the team looking at how this move back to the office is bad from a diversity, equity, and inclusion standpoint and negatively impacting individuals with disabilities who are doing the job at record levels. Joel: And these are people hired remotely. Chad: Yes. Joel: Thought their job would always be remote. Chad: Exactly. Joel: And now the switcheroo, it's not. Keith Sonderling: And you're seeing a lot of articles on that. Chad: Yeah. Keith Sonderling: And let me just take a step back. You know, at the EEOC, the federal government, we can't get involved in business decisions of whether or not your employees should work remotely or they should work in the office. The employers still have that, outside of a collective bargain agreement or a contract, which could be breach of contract claims in what you're talking about saying, well, my contract says I get to work from home, now I come to the office. Different story, right? Our perspective is whatever decision you make, whether you allow certain groups to work remotely, whether everyone has to come back in the office, that's up to you. But for those who can't come back to the office. Chad: Yes. Keith Sonderling: Because of a disability, you have to engage in that process. And what we're seeing now is so much pressure to get everyone back in the office. Chad: Well, isn't that an accommodation and something that is normal for a company to talk about? Is it a normal accommodation for an individual who needs to be able to work from home? Keith Sonderling: Right. But we never saw it before the pandemic... Chad: Because they weren't working. Keith Sonderling: Those accommodations. People weren't working remotely. Chad: Yeah. Keith Sonderling: People were coming to the office. And if you said, I don't want to come in the office five days a week, because I have fear about riding the subway system because let's just say, there's significant crime in my city now and that gives me anxiety, or I'm worried about getting the next strain of the virus, what would you say? Okay, come to work or you're fired. Get on the subway and get to work. You've never really seen those before. But now, this is really coming in to where employers can't just put those aside because they're really coming in under mental health claims, under the Americans with Disability Act, which you're alluding to. In that sense where before there was never a federally protected right to telework. Chad: Yeah. Keith Sonderling: Remote work. Now what we're seeing is that the claims are coming in because employers are saying, I can't come back to the office because I'm depressed related to coming back to my old world, that I'm so much more productive at home. I have a new life at home. That's one thing. But now, they're saying that my mental health is not allowing me to return to that world. And I've gone and sought treatment and I'm coming to UHR and saying, I am disabled under the Americans with Disability Act. And if HR departments and this is my key message when it comes to this whole conversation, if you're not empowered to go through that interactive process and if you are under pressure by your bosses to get everyone back in the office and you are ignoring those claims, because you either think they're ridiculous, they don't think they're right, that's not for you to determine. Keith Sonderling: You have to engage in that process to see if that, here's the condition, the employee's coming, what are the accommodations related to this condition working with their mental health provider Or their MD, whatever it is And saying, well, maybe a remote work schedule is what that accommodation is. Maybe it's coming in at different hours. Maybe it's alternative commuting methods. Maybe it's having noise canceling headsets or having dim lights. The answer may not be remote work. But just engaging in that process with their healthcare professionals is what HR departments need to focus on. To your point, they know how to do that, but they have to be empowered to do that even though there's such a push to return to the office Because it is going to impact disabled workers more than others and we're really seeing the mental health claims rise significantly. And what do we mean by mental health at the EEOC? The top claims are anxiety, PTSD and depression. And we're seeing those claims really increase year after year. And that's where disability discrimination has been there for a long time, but we're seeing the types of claims coming in and a lot of that is simply just not engaging in that process to see what those accommodations can be. Joel: Where is napping on the list? Because I'm waiting for that to be a disability that my employer recognizes. [laughter] Chad: 'Cause I don't recognize napping. [laughter] Joel: You guys have been in the news a lot with indictments and in cases that are being brought. What's the reason for that? Is there a trend on the kinda cases that you're seeing these days as opposed to years past? Keith Sonderling: Yeah, well, we have had an uptick in litigation, and there was an uptick in charges of discrimination. And for our fiscal year 2022 increase, which went up 20% from the year before, a lot of those were related to the post-COVID vaccination claims. So everyone was always asking, tell us how COVID has impacted the workforce. Well, we had additional 10,000 religious discrimination charges related to employers, employees who did not wanna get the vaccine, and fighting over that. So we saw that blip related to there. So that's one reason for the increase there. But as far as litigation is concerned, you are seeing an uptick in those cases. And a lot of those, again, it's related to what those trends are. And we're seeing a lot of claims related to disability discrimination increase. In addition to the number one cause of discrimination in the United States year after year is, wanna take a guess? Oh, maybe I can, I'm taking over the podcast here. Chad: Go ahead. Yeah, no, no. Keith Sonderling: That's not how it works? Chad: I'm not an expert in this. This is your job. [laughter] Joel: My gender affirming something or other. [laughter] Keith Sonderling: I was waiting for you to say something. But the number one claim of discrimination across the board, in all seriousness, is retaliation. Chad: Ah yes, yes. Keith Sonderling: And we're seeing that because it's tacked on to other claims. So you come in and say I wasn't paid the same as my coworker who's of different national origin. And the employer says, yes, you were and now you're getting paid less. Or yes, you were and now you're fired. So we really see those claims in addition to the underlying claims where you request an accommodation, or you claim you're not paid equally, or you claim you're discriminated against and then something happens to your employment. So we're seeing a combination of a lot of those in the litigations. So you have the underlying claim of discrimination and you have the retaliation and that just tacks on more causes of action for employers. Joel: And you just had your first AI specific case. Talk about that and how it ended. Keith Sonderling: So this was a case that we brought out of New York. And it was a company that was using their hiring website. And this is sort of the broader debate, which you'll hear about, what is AI? What is machine learning? Is this really AI or not? And most people would say, including me, that this was not AI. But listen to the facts here. So there was a company that offered, it was a Chinese company in New York, that offered English tutoring service in the United States. And their application system, which was just their website, somebody went and applied and they put in their birthday, immediately rejected. Same person went back... Chad: Hello. Keith Sonderling: And changed their birthday by a few years to be a few years younger and was immediately accepted. Now, none of us are machine learning PhD, MIT scientists, right? But I think the three of us collectively... Chad: Can deduce. Keith Sonderling: With our small computer brains... Joel: We could crack pretty easily. [laughter] Keith Sonderling: Could probably make that code pretty easily. Right? Chad: We could crack that code. Keith Sonderling: This is my A-team here, bring in the best investigators, Chad and Cheese on the case. But you see here, I mean, that's just basic coding. That's not sophisticated algorithms, in the sense. So there... Chad: They blamed the AI. Keith Sonderling: They blamed the computers, they blamed the system. They also said that in other countries, they're allowed to do this. Chad: It's not us. Keith Sonderling: This doesn't fly, in that sense, where that's just straight age discrimination. But it goes to a broader point, which we've talked about on earlier podcasts about how quickly, on the applicant side, that these cases can scale. So think about every person who's qualified for that job, that would have applied for that job and would have been rejected because of their age, or didn't see that advertisement because of their age, could be in a potential class of age discrimination against that employer. And that's why it's so critical in the talent acquisition space where having your systems ensuring that they're not automatically screening out people based on age, people based on gender, what these tools can allow you to do, or where you're actually doing your advertisement placements. Keith Sonderling: And there's a lot of technology out there that's gonna help with diversity recruiting, getting job ads in different places. Well, if there is, whether it's a line of code, or the algorithm is designed not to show the advertisement, which of course is federally protected to certain groups, based on race, age, sex we really see this more in the age context, like new college grads, let's just go there. Everyone who is qualified for the job can be a part of that class of saying that they were discriminated against and the employer would be liable for not potentially hiring them. There's a complicated analysis to get there. Keith Sonderling: But you see the value of these cases, how large they can get quickly. And then another part too, we did in one case, we made the employer use AI to go through in a job board to go through their system to make sure that there wasn't any discriminatory terms too close to each other that would preclude people to apply or not to apply. So you can see there's also good uses of this too, which we've talked about on the front end advertisement side. But we haven't seen the large scale cases yet. And why is that? It's because a lot of employees still don't know they're being subject to the algorithms. They don't know whether it's an interview, whether their natural language process is looking at what they're saying, that consent requirement, which we don't have yet. Keith Sonderling: Until we see that, I think it's gonna be very hard for these cases to come to us. Because don't forget when you come to the EEOC, you're just claiming discrimination based on protected category. So you're coming in saying, I was discriminated based on my age. There's not a box that says technology discrimination. Just like earlier on, there wasn't COVID discrimination. So we have to then do the investigation to see, well, was this COVID related? Was this technology related? And that takes time and resources. So until you see changes in the law and consent, or employers start doing consent, you'll start correlating some of these cases that will come in. Joel: Keith, thanks for popping in. Chad: There it is. Joel: We know you're a busy guy visiting a lot of companies and people and employers. Chad: Be on the look out. Joel: For those listeners that wanna connect with you, maybe have some questions, where would you send them? Keith Sonderling: Find me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to connect on there. Joel: Soon to be sporting a Chad & Cheese smoking jacket on his LinkedIn profile. [laughter] Joel: Chad, it's always fun to sit down with Keith. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad & Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back, like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Hallelujah! Holy sh!t! Where’s the Tylenol? This week, we’re checking it once, we’re checking it twice, and we’re going to talk about who’s been naughty, and who’s been nice in 2023. It's a combination of eight companies and individuals, so pour yourself an egg nog and enjoy. Just don't shoot your eye out! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Ohhh yeah. Hallelujah. Holy shit. Where's the tylenol? Hey, kids. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Kringle Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad. I'm feeling naughty, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's episode, we're checking it once, we're checking it twice. We're gonna find out who is naughty and Nice in 2023. Let's do this. What's up Chad. Chad: Hello. Hello. Hello. Joel: Hello. Hello. Hello. Well, you are cleanly shorn for the holidays. My man. Chad: You can only see my top half. Wait a minute. [laughter] Joel: I don't wanna know anything about those jingle bells, my friend. I don't wanna know anything about those jingle bells. That's not my department. Chad: It's a jingle bell rock, is what we call it. Joel: The podcast has not devolved into that realm quite yet. When we're that hard up for listeners, maybe we will explore... Chad: Give it time. Joel: Explore the bottom half of the shorn Chad. [laughter] Joel: Speaking of which I'm aware, he didn't make my list. Did cardboard Chad make the naughty or Nice list this year? Chad: No. I think, he definitely should have made the Nice list. But we will say honorable measure. Joel: Well, we know. He got a little naughty with cardboard Dolly Parton, at Shem, I don't know the jury's out on whether cardboard Chad was naughty or Nice this year. So anyway Chad, I think this is the fourth or fifth year that we've done this. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The news is pretty light in the holiday season. So all the podcasts and every show out there takes an opportunity to look at the past, look at the future. Which we'll certainly do, in a little bit. But we wanted to do another Naughty or Nice list. Chad and I came up with two recipients each of a naughty award and two recipients each of a Nice award from 2023 in the world of work. I know you have a beach to get to. It's already happy hour as it always is in Portugal. And I have gifts to wrap. I'm not a very proficient gift wrapper, so it takes me a long time. [laughter] Chad: That's why they made gift bags. Joel: That's right. That's right. So, here's how the format's gonna work. We're gonna go, I'm gonna go first with a Nice, then you're gonna go with a Nice, we're gonna take a break, two Nices in a row and a Naughty. And we're gonna load up the naughtiness, on the backend, which is how we always do. And then we'll call it a day. And wish everyone to do and a happy holiday break. Sound good to you? Chad: Let's do it. SFX: Oops. Winning. Joel: Alright. Number one on my Nice list here. Okay. So as of 2020, the pandemic, the work from home, the remote workforce, unicorns galore. We were always wondering like, who was gonna come out of this group the big winner. And we had Oyster, we had Remote, we had Velocity Global, we had Personio. HiBob, Eightfold is kind of trying to be in there, and by all accounts, it seems to look like Deel. D-E-E-L is the big deal. So let me give you some numbers here. They're five years old, okay? They have a woman co-founder. My list is kinda heavy on the females this year. Woman Co-founder. Chad: Love it. Joel: They've raised $679 million. They have a $7 billion valuation, by the way, a few a year ago, I think of that was it 12 billion? So if they've almost been split in half, imagine what everyone else has done in that time. Remote has a $3 billion valuation. Oyster has a $1 billion valuation. According to LinkedIn. Their headcount has grown 118% in the last six months, 236% in the last year, and 675% in the last two years. September of 2023, their hiring has ramped up. So since the fall, they've gone back into an uptrend where most others have flatlined or gone down. Joel: Customers include Dropbox, Nike, Shopify, Reddit, Subway, and your favorite, Red Bull. A story by the information says that they've hit $400 million in ARR, for 2023. That's up from 295 million in January. And in 2020 they made a meager, a modest $1.4 million. So if you wanna talk about Rocket Ships, Deel is a rocket ship. So what's up for the future? They have an I to an IPO in 2025, according to a story in Bloomberg. They have $550 million in the bank and they remain profitable to the tune of roughly $5 million per month over the next 18 months. They plan to spend as much as $200 million on acquisitions. So can you say M&A for 2024 and an IPO in 2025, Deel makes the top of my Nice list this year, and it looks like they are gonna be the big winners of the remote work trend that we saw Take hold in 2020. So, Deel very Nice. [applause] Chad: Cheers to Deel. And I'd say in comparison, Deel had a 10 by 10 booth at HR Tech in 2022. Eightfold had two spaceships for God's sakes. And it just looks like Deel is running their business, in a much better fashion, obviously than the Eightfold kids are. So, yeah. Cheers, cheers to Deel. Joel: By the way, I think their founders are both under 30. So if you wanna look at some zest and some youngins coming up, look no further than Deel. Chad: Some zest. SFX: That's winning. Chad: Alright, my first Nice, get ready. Google for jobs. That's right. In 2023, we've seen several signs of life from the Google for Jobs project. Tom Chevalier over at Appcast Labs noticed Google performing new layout tests and what I would call a public beta, providing screenshots of jobs showing up in paid ad section. You heard that. Then Alexandra Tchaikovsky shared screenshots of different Google for Jobs layouts providing more fluid user experience versus the current chunky look. Yes, it's taken forever to get here, but progress is good. Why does Google make the Nice list? Well, Indeed needed to do something to respond. So in a very out of character move, they tried forcing cost per apply and cost per apply started on the market all at once. Indeed had to get in front of Google because they've educated the market for years on CPC. And if Google was coming to the market with CPC for jobs, well, Google wins that fight. So Indeed needed to get the industry educated on their new products quickly, too quickly. So quickly, those efforts collapsed under their own weight. Yes, Indeed's inability to roll out new products just imploded because Google forced the market. So the Google for Jobs project gets placed on my Nice list for driving excitement and bumbling in the market. We're looking forward to all that Google has to bring us in 2024. SFX: Alright. Alright. Alright. Joel: Very Nice. Warming up with a couple of Nice listers. Alright, we'll take a quick break and get back to two more Nices and we'll tease you with little Naughty, and then bring it into ultimate naughtiness at the end. Alright, Chad, you're about halfway through with beer number one. I'm curious of how far we're gonna get by the end of the show. [laughter] Chad: I'm no lightweight. Joel: Before the break, I had Deel, as my first Nice list recipient. I went super big... SFX: I'm happy. Joel: On the first one, super big. You know how I like it, and on this one, I'm gonna go super small. 'Cause I wanted to kinda balance my Nice list out. Chad: I like it. Joel: Now, you and I have been doing Firing Squad. It was our first show outside of our weekly show. It was the first kind of like we wanted to do a Shark Tank kind of thing, do a lot of startups and who wanted exposure. So we've been doing Firing Squad for a long time. We've killed a lot of companies. We've lifted a lot up. But there was one last year that took me totally by surprise. And generally with Firing Squad, I look at the company, I look at CrunchBase, I look at the founders, their experience and what they've done. And I generally have a good idea of how I'm going to comment about the company, what my rating and review's gonna be. What's that? Chad: Or you think you do? Joel: Or I think I do. So this past year, a company called Vette, came on the show and Vette what they do is they have real human beings. They have a contract workforce of like 600 people. And when you apply to a job, they have an integration into Indeed. And when you apply, you get a note saying, "Hey, would you like to interview now?" And they go, "oh, okay." And then they actually get a call from a human being. I thought that sounds like the worst idea for 2023 that I've ever heard. Chatbots are taking over. Automation is taking over. AI is like... No one is going to pay for human beings to talk to people. Forget about it. So we got on the call, Amber Wanner is the founder again, we're going female on my Nice list. Joel: And they launched in 2020. They've raised about two and a half million dollars. So they're on par with that usual startup flavor, a little bit of a couple million and getting into this. And I thought, I'm gonna destroy this company. She pitch it to us, sold me on it, and I got to thinking that, man, we need some humanity in 2023. And this company, little startup is taking on the paradoxes and the big guys, and like bringing humanity to this industry. When we both gave them arousing applause. I expected to give them the guns. After we talked with them, I messaged Amber and I said, "If you want someone to help you, if you needed... Like, I wanna help your mission and your cause." Full disclosure in the time since then, I'm on with the company, so take my niceness with whatever you want, but full disclosure, I'm helping these guys. And it's real exciting the energy around what they're doing, the humanity that they're bringing to our industry, which tries to get more and more robotic every year. So for me, my second Nice list recipient goes to Vette, and that's V-E-T-T-E.io, in case you didn't know. Chad: As in Corvette. And I love the whole skipping of the interview scheduling. It's funny because that's been like, literally that was like a platform for I don't know how many startups, a couple of years ago. We kinda evolved past that, but that was one of the biggest issues. And now this platform, literally, I think it was like 80% or something like that. You probably know better than I do. Skips the interview scheduling entirely. Because as soon as you apply and you go through the little application process, you can go directly to the interview if you meet all the requirements. And that to me was just genius. SFX: That's winning. Joel: Alright, let's get to your second Nice. Chad: Well, if you've been listening to the podcast this year, kids you know, if you've been watching news you know, it's power to the people. It's the UAW is helping people understand they are stronger together. More importantly, Rugged individualism was pure bullshit. Something manufactured by the C-suite, because as individuals you can't create a movement. And movements are what scare the shit out of boards everywhere. And C-suites everywhere, which is why people like Elon Musk and Mary Barrack hate unions because one person isn't a factor. One person can't really move the needle, but hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands, now you're talking. Plus even those people who were not in the union saw a bump, which UAW, president Shawn Fain calls the UAW bump. GM is bumping non-union wages, not to mention their increasing benefits for non-union employees told Toyota, 9% wage bump, general dynamics, non-union and benefits bump while Stellantis is providing bumps and they're actually slated to build new plants in Illinois. There are plenty of unions out there doing the hard work of pulling people together and creating fair and equitable movements. But in 2023, there was one union head and shoulders above the rest, and that was Shawn Fain and the UAW. [applause] Chad: Howard of the people. Joel: Is it safe to say that if you had a person of the year, would it be Shawn Fain? Chad: Yes. 'Cause he represents more than just him, right? It's like you see a lot of these people who represent a technology and whatnot. He represents these workers, the people who do the hard work every single day. Joel: I have a sneaking suspicion that Shawn Fain might make your predictions list somewhere for 2024. I don't know. You have to tune in for that one. Alright. Enough niceness. Enough of the Nice. Let's get into the evil, the evil people. The naughtiness. The naughtiness. Okay. Making my first Naughty lister. Alright, Chad, you mentioned unions, power to the people, the rise of the worker, which was all a positive trend in 2023. The trend that I see in my Naughty list, if I'm going the opposite direction, is the powers that be having a real problem with the power that workers were garnering. And specifically in the work from home movement. Get your ass back in the office. Remote work, hybrid work conditions, like all of that came to a head. And the powers that be were not happy with what was going on. Greed always as good and it was very prevalent in 2023. So my first naughty, she's the pity city CEO. I'm gonna play the soundbite from her, which is entertaining. And then we'll talk about it on the other side. Enjoy. Andi Owens: Great question, Chris. A lot of questions came through about how can we stay motivated if we're not gonna get a bonus, what can we do? What can we do? Some of them were Nice and some of them were not so Nice. So I'm gonna address this head on. The most important win thing we can do right now is focus on the things that we can control. None of us could have predicted COVID. None of us could have predicted supply chain. None of us could have predicted bank failures. But what we can do is stay in front of our customers, provide the best customer service we can. Get our orders out our door, treat each other well. Be kind, be respectful. Focus on the future because it will be bright. It's not good to be in a situation we're in today, but we're not gonna be here forever. It is going to get better. So lead, lead by example. Treat people well. Talk to them. Be kind and get after it. Don't ask about, "What are we gonna do if we don't get a bonus?" Get the damn $26 million. Spend your time and your effort thinking about the $26 million we need, and not thinking about what you gonna do if we don't get a bonus. Alright? Can I get some commitment for that? I would appreciate that. I had an old boss who said to me one time, "You can visit pity city, but you can't live there." So people leave pity city, let's get it done. Thank you. Have a great day. Joel: So that was Andi Owens, CEO of MillerKnoll. Andi, by the way, made over $5 million last year. Only one million of that was salary. 2 million was received in stock options, and another 2 million was awarded as stock, and the rest came from other types of compensation. This was all about her and not the workers. There was such a tone deaf element to 2023. The power structure was disrupted. And the pity city, CEO, to me was the epitome of the CEO of 2023, being really unhappy with the workers, not getting the bonuses that I want, not getting paid enough while the workers had to pull the weight to get her what she wanted. Very selfish, very greedy. A very common theme for 2023. So for me, it was easy. My number one Naughty goes to Andi Owens the pity CEO of MillerKnoll. Alright, that's my first naughty. There's a lot more naughty to come. We'll be right back. Alright, Chad, let's keep the naughty going. Your first one is... Chad: Child labor. My first shout out, though, I'm gonna start this off positive, is I'd like to thank Reid Maki, the Child Labor advocacy Director at the National Consumers League and Child Labor Coalition for coming on the show and doing an interview on this topic months ago and enlightening us on this topic. So in 2023 states like Minnesota, Arkansas, New Jersey, Minnesota I said Minnesota. Missouri, [laughter] Chad: Florida, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, and many more are rolling back to the 1930s. That's right. The child labor laws, which were created in the late 1930s. They're rolling those back. And these states, politicians say it's because their labor shortage has impacted industries like meat packing and construction. Yes. Kids and slaughterhouses and construction sites. That doesn't sound dangerous at all, does it? So when Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds signed her state's new, more permissive child labor law, she said the measure would, "Allow young adults to develop their skills in the workforce." First and foremost, a 14-year-old is not a "young adult" Plus, I can guaran fucking tee you that none of Kim's kids, grandkids, or anybody who's close to her fucking DNA are working any of these jobs, okay? So she's just looking for poor people to do the work at an incredibly cheap labor. Right? More importantly, here are the economic, the living wage in Des Moines. Chad: Yes. Des Moines for a single mom with a kid is $67,000 a year. While the average meat packing salary in Iowa is less than 25k a year. Minimum wage is still set at 725 an hour, which is a pitiful 15k. So why so low? When Tyson Foods, Global Foods, JBS, National Beef Packing, and Seaboard Corp. Financial statements show a 120% collective jump in their gross profits since the pandemic and a 500% increase in net income. So these long lists Tyson Foods, Global Foods, JBS, National Beef Packing Company and Seaboard Corp. Recently also announced a $1 billion dividend and stock buyback. And on top of that, these companies paid more than 3 billion to shareholders since the pandemic began. So names of the 2023 Naughty List are Iowa Governor, I Hate Poor People, Kim Reynolds, Tyson Foods, Global Foods, JBS, national Beef Packing Company, and Seaboard Corp for turning the clock back to the 1930s. Shame on you. You're getting a lump of coal. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Alright. Starting the Naughty off on the right way. Alright. My second one is Aussie twofer. Chad. That's right. Australia. The Arkansas of the Southern Hemisphere never ceases to entertain us, which brings me to, first up we have Nicole Duncan. We've never talked about Nicole in the show. I did it in my research and this is what she had to say about work from home. Nicole Duncan: Absolutely passionate about people returning to work. This generation is just selfish. In our younger days we had to, we caught trains, buses, whatever, ferries to get to work. Yes, it did take two or three hours, but you've got to be in the office 'cause you don't know what you don't know. And until these CEOs make a decision and get bulky about this, it's not going to change 'cause the unemployment rate is still too low. So... Joel: You can't blame people for choosing to work from home if they're given an option, Nicole. But I think you'll find that more businesses are not going to give that option. Nicole Duncan: Well, that's the trouble. I mean, as you rightly said, the first question people ask is, what's your flexible work policy? And then what's the salary I'm on? And things like hotels are suffering in the city. I mean, there's less business travel. They do it all on teams, so they're suffering. There was a big article in the AFR on that last week. I mean, cleaners, people who make your coffee, your lunches, all of those sorts of things. We want a vibrant city for visitors to come to. And it needs to look busy. It needs to look vibrant. Joel: People who make the fastest... Nicole Duncan: Not to look as sort of slow and rambling. Chad: Yeah. Nicole Duncan: And we examine the city all the time and it's a very big frustration. They get distractions at home. Joel: And I used to go to school uphill both ways in the snow. I mean, like, is there more? Get off my lawn moment than Nicole Duncan. So a little bit about Nicole. She's the CEO and managing director of CR Commercial Property Group. So shockingly, she has an interest in people getting back to work and the world getting back to the way that it was. She also employs less than 50 people according to LinkedIn. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Joel: So this isn't about her company and her people. This is about the money that she's making on commercial real estate and making sure that that faucet does not dry up. She also has zero jobs posted on their website, which means she doesn't hire people. Like she's not a big hiring company that needs people in the office. It has nothing to do with her. It has everything to do with her bank account. So she's clearly talking her book in this interview, but is there a better... I couldn't find a better get off my lawn interview than I did with Nicole Duncan, but I said this was a double Aussie Naughty list Chad, and this brings me to Tim Gurner. You remember Tim Gurner who was the CEO that said out loud what everyone else was thinking. Let's hear what Tim said back in the end of summer. I believe. Tim Gurner: I think the problem that we've had is that we've... People decided that they didn't really wanna work so much anymore through COVID. And that has had a massive issue on productivity. Tradies have definitely pulled back on productivity. They have been paid a lot to do not too much in the last few years and we need to see that change. We need to see unemployment rise. Unemployment has to jump 40-50% in my view. We need to see pain in the economy. We need to remind people that they work for the employer, not the other way around. I mean, there's been a systematic change where employees feel the employer is extremely lucky to have them, as opposed to the other way around. Tim Gurner: So it's a dynamic that has to change. We've got to kill that attitude and that has to come through hurting the economy, which is what the whole global, the world is trying to do. The governments around the world are trying to increase unemployment to get that to some sort of normality. And we're seeing it. I think every employer now is saying seeing it. I mean, there is definitely massive layoffs going off. People might not be talking about it, but people are definitely laying people off and we're starting to see less arrogance in the employment market. And that has to continue 'cause that will cascade across the cost balance. Joel: So we covered on the show. I won't spend too much more time on that. By the way, Tim is one of Australia's richest men. So he knows about the little guy. He knows about the working man and woman and what they're going through. So for me, my Naughty list ends and begins in Australia in this case. But no better soundbites that I could share than those two winners. Grab an oil can of Foster's if you're in Australia, 'cause it sounds like some of the execs are pretty raw. Chad: This is gonna surprise nobody. My last Naughty list goes to Elon Musk and his killing of Twitter. I have to admit that I never really loved Twitter, but I enjoyed it and I used it daily. And about a month ago, I deleted the app from my phone. Why? Well, if you've been hiding in a closet or building a meta bunker over the last year or so, you know that Twitter was bought by Elon Musk at $44 billion price tag. And now it's about less than half that. It's worth less than half that. So how did this happen? Simple answer is Elon Musk. Long answer is it starts with Elon chasing advertisers away by allowing and trying to normalize disinformation, trolls, antisemitic tweets, and incels who now rule the fucking platform. Big companies want none of that. And they have pulled billions of dollars in advertising from Twitter for the fear of their ads being in such a toxic environment. Chad: And then Elon goes on the stage and publicly say, fuck you to those enterprise advertisers calling out specifically Bob Iger. You might know him, CEO of Disney, giving those companies a public stamp of approval to stay the fuck away from Twitter. So how does Elon Musk make up the 25 billion plus in losses without all this enterprise cash? He makes the blue check mark worthless and yet charges for it, which only drives more people away. He's planning to charge all users at least a dollar. And he plans to charge companies for a 1990s job jab board he's calling a hiring platform, something "cooler than LinkedIn". Oh, I also forgot that Linda, paper tiger Yaccarino is targeting small and medium sized businesses to fuel Twitter's future growth. And all of this while Elon rebrands as X. And then you just type in X.com. It still resolves to wait for it. Yeah. Let's write Twitter.com. That's right, kids. Chad: It's not X. It's called fucking... SFX: Just the tip. Chad: Twitter.com. And this, this is the genius we were all waiting for. SFX: This. Chad: Nope, not this guy. In 2023, Elon gets put on the Naughty list for effectively killing Twitter, a platform we all enjoyed and some guys like Joel even still loves. Joel: Elon would have made my list for his morality argument as to why people should get back in the office. And his quote that the laptop class is in la la land was one of my favorites. Chad: If he was Australian, he would have made it. Joel: Yeah. He might have. He... Born in South Africa, a few continents over, at least the same hemisphere. You know how I am with geography. Anyway, that's it. Another year in the books. Can't wait to see what happens in 2024. Destined to be a lot of Naughty with politics heating up with the election, geopolitics, and hopefully more money with interest rates going down, coming into the world of work, which Chad and I will be happy to talk about heading into next year. Any final thoughts? Chad: And there's gonna be some naughty AI coming. You know that's gonna be happening. We're already seeing it. There's gonna be even more naughty AI. Joel: I have no doubt. And it'll be a lot of fun to talk about. So what are you doing for Christmas? Chad: I am going to find a beach or some sun and some beer. And when I was 19, no, I was actually 18, born and bred in the Midwest. So I believed what I was told. The four seasons are the best. You've got to live through all four seasons. And number two, snow on Christmas was the best. I was in the jungle for Christmas. I was on a beach for Christmas. Guess what? I don't do anymore. Snow for fucking Christmas. SFX: That's winning. Joel: Well, good on you. I will be in the snow-less Midwest where we don't even get to enjoy that at Christmas time. It should be wet, and probably 50 degrees. But I will be with family. And that'll be that'll warm my heart as your dome is getting warm under the sunlight. It's been a fun year. We'll see you in 2024 with some predictions. But until then, Chad, Naughty and Nice, checking it twice. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Recorded live at the HR Tech Conference from the Fuel50 booth in Las Vegas, Chad & Cheese are joined by Heather Bussing, a legal expert in employment law. They discuss the topic of pay equity and how it impacts diversity and inclusion in the workplace. They explore how technology can help address pay equity issues and the importance of pay transparency. They also touch on the rise of unions and the impact of COVID-19 on changing perspectives in the workforce. Heather shares her insights on how employers can navigate these challenges and ensure fair compensation for their employees. To learn more about Fuel50, visit https://fuel50.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Chad: Coming to you live from the Fuel 50 booth at the heart of HR Tech. It's the Chad and Cheese podcast. We are diving deep into the world of HR technology, tackling workforce challenges with innovative solutions and we'd like to give special thanks to Fuel 50, the scienced- based talent marketplace that bridges skills gaps, unlocks hidden potential and supports better retention and engagement. Let's do this. Intro Music: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It's your parole officer's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always the black to my Jack. Chad: Yes. Joel: Chad Sowash. And we are happy to welcome Heather Bussing of Bussing Law to the show. Chad: Bussing Law. You need to like, if you do commercials, you need that Monster Truck Bussing law. Joel: Sunday. Sunday. Sunday. Sunday. Bus. Bus. Bus. Bus. Bus. Bus. It's like prestige... Chad: Prestige at Global. Joel: Prestige Global. Chad: Okay. Heather, so you have already finished your talk, which is why you're so relaxed, which is why you're so relaxed. Heather Bussing: I'm so happy. Joel: She's barefoot. Chad: And I appreciate that. Joel: Crisscrossed applesauce on the chair, man. Chad: I love it. Heather Bussing: Yes. Well, it's because my feet don't touch the floor. Chad: That's nice. That's nice. Joel: I think the chairs move up and down. I'll have to look at it later. Heather Bussing: My name is and I'm five years old. Joel: So what'd you talk about? Chad: What did you... Yeah. What'd you talk about yesterday? Heather Bussing: We talked about pay equity. Chad: Okay, that's big. Heather Bussing: We talked about how pay equity can begin to change your DE&I focus. Chad: How's that work? Okay. Because for me, this is more about equity. Heather Bussing: Yes. Chad: Than it is diversity and inclusion, right? Heather Bussing: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: So how do we get those others in there as we're working on equity? Heather Bussing: Yeah. There's a couple things. One is pay equity involves money. Chad: Yeah. Heather Bussing: So if you get that right... Chad: And/or lack of money. Yes. Heather Bussing: Yeah. Well, but money is a proxy for so many things in an organization. Chad: That's a good point. Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. Heather Bussing: A budget is a statement of values and what you pay people is... Joel: Keeping score. Heather Bussing: Keeping score. Yeah. Exactly. So if you can start to get that right, it's just math, right? So you can route around all of the, you really need to do x because you can see it. Chad: But it's just math. But that is math in many cases that actually impacts the margins so therefore, that's one of the reasons why if you can pay your people lower and this is how obviously management has fought for many, many, many, many, many years, why not get away with it? If you can pay them lower, then we get more money into our pockets, margin wise, stock buybacks, all that other fund stuff. So why not do that? So why has it taken so long? We're not a parity right now, right? Heather Bussing: Oh no. Chad: We're in 2023 and we're still seeing huge gaps. Heather Bussing: Yep. Chad: Why, if it's just a math problem, why are we still seeing this problem? Heather Bussing: Because until now we had to do multi-variate regressions on Excel spreadsheets. Joel: Bless you. What did she say? Chad: Did she say that out loud? Joel: You need to dumb it down for the Chad and Cheese show. Chad: This is a kid friendly podcast. Watch your mouth, Heather. Joel: Yeah. Watch out. Heather Bussing: So what you have to... Joel: Alright. Go, dig into that. Heather Bussing: Yeah. What you had to do was do a statistical analysis... Chad: Yes. Heather Bussing: About who was paid in what pay grades and then figure out if the outliers were correlated to a protected class. Usually gender, but race is also pretty common. Chad: Yeah. Heather Bussing: But with technology now we can do all the protected classes. Chad: Yes. Heather Bussing: So we can track that if we have the data and we don't have data on everything like LGBTQ. Chad: Right. Because not, well, not everybody identifies either. Heather Bussing: Exactly. And I don't blame them. So the statistical work is much easier and then once you have figured out how to group your comparable jobs, because what we've been doing until now is we look at people's job titles and we look at their pay grade. Chad: Okay. Heather Bussing: And then we compare their pay. And that's not really comparing whether there's equal work for equal pay. Chad: Okay. Heather Bussing: It's whether there's equal pay for equal pay. So you end up with a self licking ice cream cone that doesn't really tell you anything. But it's always good news. Joel: Again, with the potty mouth, the self licking ice cream, self licking ice cream. Chad: I think, yeah. I think that's... Joel: Give us the current state of pay equity. We had when DEI was popular and everyone was talking about it, this was a hot issue. We've seen laws passed recently. We saw Indeed require pay range. Chad: Or they inserted it. Joel: Although we've seen companies get around that. Give us the current state of the issue of pay transparency. Heather Bussing: Okay. Well first I wanna talk about Claudia Goldin who won the Nobel Prize this week. Chad: Yes. Heather Bussing: For her work on women in the workplace. And basically she said, we stalled out during the pandemic and women lost ground and pay equity and there are still tremendous gaps between men and women doing the exact same jobs. Chad: But why? Because the math is there, the platforms are there. It just seems like to me and this is, I think the missing piece, the will is not there, the will of organizations. And at this point, unless organizations are mandated to do this, it's not going to happen. So what do we do? Without the government, what are we gonna do? We're gonna sit here, we're gonna continue to have this conversation. Heather Bussing: This is where pay transparency helps, right? Chad: Yes. Heather Bussing: Because if everybody has to post legitimate pay ranges, not just wild... Joel: Not zero to 2 million. Heather Bussing: Right, exactly. Chad: But that's just on the incoming, right? What about all the disparity that's happening within the actual workforce itself? I know that's a start for people coming in and the people on the outside can look out to these jobs and say, wait a minute, I'm not getting paid that salary. So there is some of that, but that's an external, what about the current internal parity that we just can't see? Heather Bussing: Technology can help because we're getting much, much better at being able to understand the work. So, we're looking at skills, developing skills, taxonomies, figuring out what's involved in the work. It's early days, but we're also getting better job descriptions because there is technology that can help create that so that you don't have to get all the weird things out of recruiting C drives and all this stuff over at worker's comp, so once we have a really great understanding of the work, we can get really accurate analysis and assessment of what's going on with pay equity. And then it's cheaper to fix it. Joel: Yeah. Heather Bussing: It's cheaper to fix it than fight about it. It's also evidence. Chad: But if they're getting away with it now, it's not costing them anything right now. Heather Bussing: Well, California is requiring companies to report pay to the regulators and they have the same technology that we do. Chad: Yeah. So you're talking about these platforms. Give us some ideas of some platforms that you would suggest for any company who really cares about pay equity. Heather Bussing: Yeah. Well, let me make my FTC disclosure. [laughter] Joel: Sure. [laughter] Heather Bussing: I do a lot of content work for salary.com and ADP and they are both on track and doing amazing work. Chad: Now what about startups like Syndio? Those are companies that are just specifically focused, narrowly focused on pay equity. What about companies like that? Heather Bussing: It depends on how they've approached the, how do we compare the work aspect. And I don't know. Part of what I'm here to do today is go around and find out what people are doing. Chad: Great. Heather Bussing: So I will check them out. Thank you. Joel: So Chad talks about government and regulations, There's a piece of that. I think a certain segment would say the market is taking care of a lot of this. In other words... Chad: Bullshit. Joel: I know that if I have a pay range, the applicants I get are going to be more qualified 'cause they're gonna be in that pay range expectation. Obviously services like pay scale and whatnot sheds a light on what people are getting paid, that people are more informed. What do you say to the, "Well, the market is taking care of some of that," argument. Heather Bussing: I think that's right. I think we also have to look at sheer demographics because we saw labor shortage after the pandemic. We've seen job growth ever since. And the reality is that women are waiting longer to have kids. They're having fewer kids. We have immigration policies that make it very hard for people to come in and work. And we've got an aging population that is retiring. So we have a labor shortage for the foreseeable future. But how that shakes out in individual jobs is always gonna ebb and flow. Joel: Your angle on market taking care of it is that boomers are retiring at a 10,000 plus per day clip. Eventually there'll be a shortage, pay will equal out and everything will be hunky dory or closer to what it is now. Heather Bussing: Hopefully. Chad: When has that ever happened in our society... Heather Bussing: But it will. Chad: With the market 'cause the market's never fixed it before. So why do you think the market's gonna fix it now? Joel: I'm just asking our guest here. Chad: I'm asking, historically... Heather Bussing: I think it will help. Chad: The market didn't, it won't fix it. Joel: My question was, there is a segment that will say the market will take care of some of that. Chad: No, I heard that. Joel: You don't need the government to come down. I was asking her take on market forces versus... Chad: I was asking you a question as well. It's okay. Heather Bussing: Oh man. Joel: I think both are right. Heather Bussing: I agree. Chad: I think they have to work together. But the problem I think we've had, if we haven't had enough government intervention, which everybody hates to hear, but we in our history have not seen parity. So therefore we have to do something different. Joel: And look, we give Indeed a hard time almost every week. But we are both on the same page in saying... Chad: Exactly, yes. Joel: Requiring companies in their job description to put a pay range. Or if you don't, we're gonna put one in for you. Chad: So, question, do you think Indeed would've done that without all of the states making those... Heather Bussing: Of course not. Chad: Okay. Okay. So therefore, government, that was not a market pressure. That was a governmental pressure. Heather Bussing: Yeah. No. And both things are correct. But the labor shortage is also gonna make movement in DE&I because we're gonna have to hire everyone. Chad: Exactly. Heather Bussing: And we're gonna have to learn to work together. And it's not gonna be optional anymore. Joel: And that's a demographic issue. Heather Bussing: Yes. Joel: From your standpoint. Yes. Okay. Heather Bussing: Yes. And then things get real because it's not about convincing people about things that they don't think matter. It's about, look, do you wanna be in business or not? Joel: Maybe getting in the weeds. You work with a lot of companies, they come to you for questions and you have answers. What are they asking you? Is it basic stuff? Is it really detailed? What are your customers and clients asking about on this issue? Heather Bussing: Well, they're... I still get questions every... Joel: How do I not get sued? Is that... Chad: Or do I have to? Joel: How do I not have to hire Bussing Law? [laughter] Heather Bussing: Well, my clients don't hire me to do litigation 'cause I quit doing litigation. I fulfilled my lifetime quota of fighting with people a few years ago. Chad: So you're more preventative maintenance. Heather Bussing: I am preventative maintenance. Chad: Ah, I like that. Heather Bussing: And getting in there before there's trouble. And wage hour stuff is always big. And I tell people outsource your payroll to a reputable company that's gonna be here 10 years from now that understands the laws of all 50 states. COVID is still a big issue for employers and employment lawyers because the rules keep changing. And sick leave, states are changing new laws in response to all of the ones that expired. And so everyone's trying to sort that out, including me. Joel: Unions are having a moment. Heather Bussing: Yes. Joel: Talk about that because I think that is, you know, ingrained a lot in this equity issue and getting paid what I'm worth and inflation and COVID. Give us your take on the rise of the unions. And we're here in Vegas where there's a threat of... Chad: It's a good point. Joel: The service industry striking. Heather Bussing: Yeah. Well, it's the power dynamics, right? Because the employers hold the purse and the only way that at will employment, right? We don't like your classes, you're fired. And so the only way that employees can have leverage in the conversation is to join together. And then we have a framework for that in place under the National Labor Relations Act. Joel: So you're not surprised to see this rise in unions whatsoever? Heather Bussing: I am not surprised. I am not surprised. Chad: Are you surprised that it took so long? Because the unions were busted up back in the '80s and then they just started to atrophy. And then the pitchforks are now starting to come out. This is what Joel and I have been talking about for years. The pitchforks are gonna come out and now they're coming out in the form of the union. Are you surprised that it took so long? Heather Bussing: Yes, but I'll tell you what happened, COVID. Chad: As an accelerator for many things. Heather Bussing: When you decide that you are not willing to die for your employer, it turns out there's a lot of other stuff you don't wanna do either. [laughter] Heather Bussing: Right? Joel: That's a great perspective. Chad: Well, yes. Heather Bussing: And we learned that things can change on a dime and that all of the things that people were asking for suddenly became possible. Chad: Yes. Heather Bussing: Gosh. Chad: Yes. Heather Bussing: And so we don't believe that you can't do it anymore. That's what employees are thinking. Joel: Heather, we're at a show, maybe the biggest show of the year in terms of technology and TA and HR. Any takeaways so far from the show or things that you're anxious to see, any vendors that you're interested in talking to? Heather Bussing: I'm excited to just see what's going on and what people are working on. Generative AI is hot, but we'll see how that goes out. I am very skeptical. Chad: Yes. Heather Bussing: But I'm interested in that and I'm interested in figuring out how people are understanding the work. Joel: Everyone of a certain age and I'm looking at everyone at the table, is a little skeptical about all of this stuff. Heather, thanks for joining us. For our listeners who want to know more about you or connect, where would you send them? Heather Bussing: Connect with me on LinkedIn, Heather Bussing. Joel: Easy, easy. Chad: Too easy. I love it. Joel: Another one in the can, Chad. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded till to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

As you probably guessed, the week before Christmas, recruiting news is a bit light. However, that won't stop the Chad & Cheese commentary train, even if things are a little less recruit-y. Elon's Cybertruck is hitting some snags in Europe, and it's not just the narrow roads in Cork that might keep it out of bounds in the Old Country. Threads has also hit Europe, successfully maneuvering the EU regulation machine. Does that spell more trouble for Elon's X? We discuss. Sticking with Europe (why not?), it's a Who'd Ya' Rather: Ménage à Trois edition, featuring Urban Sports Club, Harriet and Mistral. What's more? How about the future of self-checkout and giving eternal life to your favorite porn stars, thanks to AI. Indeed, the happiest time of the year starts with this warm and fuzzy episode of Chad & Cheese. Hallelujah! Holy sh!t! Where's the Tylenol? PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah, I don't know what to say, but it's Christmas and we're all in Misery. What's up, kids? You're listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Shitter's full Cheeseman. Chad: And this is Chad 14th amendment Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, Cyber Trucks Threads and Pornstars, sounds a lot like my Christmas wishlist. Let's do this. Chad: So no cold open. I mean, it was all cold open, you didn't have anything leading you in, you don't have sound effects. This is not a great holiday season for Joel, right now. Joel: This is awful. It's your nirvana. It's your nirvana. No sounds no baby crying or, our software for podcasting. Chad: It took a shit. Joel: We can't play sounds, so Chad's gonna throw these in, I don't know what... I'm out of control. I don't have sounds. This is the Cole In My Stocking. But anyway, it's Christmas time. It's holiday season, our Christmas cards are out, everyone's feeling the love. Chad: Loving it. Joel: You're in, who knows where the hell you are, some sunshine coming through the window, you got bottles of booze behind you. If you haven't seen this stuff, go check us out on YouTube, you can see all the glory of Chad's backgrounds, it's not relegated to his Facebook feed. You can go on video and see the elaborate vacation spot. So where are you now and what are you doing? Chad: I am on the island of Madeira, which is a Portuguese island, but it's literally off the coast of Africa, it is pretty much a mountain in the water, so it's got just this crazy hiking trails, it's golf courses. It's pretty amazing. So we're here through Christmas and New Year's Eve, we have family coming in for New Year's Eve, we're gonna do big Airbnb. Right now I am actually at a friend's house at his bar, as you can see living the life and enjoying shorts and T-shirt weather. Joel: So I'm gonna give you a little AI scare story. So you and I, we chat on Facebook Messenger, and you put a picture on our feed about you in Madeira, and on Instagram, I'm starting to get ads about visiting Madeira for vacation. That's how scary smart this AI shit is getting. Chad: It knows. Joel: It's getting a little out of control, a little out of control. Pouring yourself a beer. That's nice. Chad: Pouring myself a Coral. Literally, this is a Madeiran beer. Yeah, so while you're here, you gotta drink this stuff, so they've got Madeiran port wine, rum, which we will have later. So yeah, we're just trying to do the most Madeiran things we can, get drunk. Eat food. Joel: So you remember last week, I said, If anyone in Chicago wants to lose some money on the Browns-Bears game, so two people took me up on that, one was Joe Shaker, which I knew would happen, and then our boy, Mike Shafer at FactoryFix. So Joe being the grizzled veteran of the betting world, took the points they gave the Bears three and a half points, the Browns won by 3. So Joe technically won in Vegas, although my Browns will be in the playoffs and his Bears will be in Bora Bora, Mike on the other hand, at FactoryFix took it straight up like a man. No points. So I came out even, I pushed on it, but I got a nice bottle of scotch from Mike and I sent Joe some nice red wine, which was his request. Chad: I like how you talk about somebody taking it like a man and going straight up and knowing that whenever you get a chance to take the points. Joel: Take the points, the best ever with Joe was Ohio State, Wisconsin, and Ohio State blew him out, but Wisconsin had so many points that I lost the bet. So... Yeah, you gotta take the points, sometimes you have to. If it's Ohio State, Wisconsin, you can't go straight up on that bet. Well, my friend, have a good holiday. I will not talk to you hopefully at all next week, take a time out. Chad: If we're luckily. Joel: And then we hit the ground running next year and spend a lot of time with each other, so let's get to shout-outs. Chad: A big shout-out to... You might know her, Penny Queller and the Mom project. This is from SIA "The Mom project a staffing provider with a special focus on mothers returning to the workforce which is what we need kids, named the long time staffing industry executive Penny Queller as its president, to lead the company through its next stage of growth." Penny was already working as an advisor to CEO Allison Robinson, who has been on the pod and will transition, Allison will transition to a new role as founder and chairwoman. So big shout out to Penny and the mom project. Joel: Love it, love it, love it. Mine is much less professional, I hope that you can bear with me... Chad: Imagine that. Joel: My shout-out goes to Aidan Maese-Czeropski. Hopefully, I said that correctly. Chad: Excuse you. Joel: Who the hell is that? You're in Europe, you may not know this, but a 25-year-old staffer, a Senate staffer this week decided to... Well, he didn't do it this week, but he shared pics recently of having sex, sexual intercourse in a Senate hearing room, the same Senate hearing room where they vet Supreme Court Justices and really important people, Aidan decided to do the nasty. He recorded it, put it on like a private group chat, didn't think this would come out. Shocker, it did, lesson for the kids, if you put it online, there's a good chance that it's gonna be found. Aidan works for an 80-year-old senator. I can't imagine what that conversation was like, 80-year-old senator who's leaving the senate, from Maryland, he was fired shockingly, and people are digging up some really interesting stuff on this cat, they're looking at his Venmo purchases, his Twitter stuff like kids if it's on the internet, it can come to bite you in the ass. Don't do it. Aidan, cautionary tale, but shout-out to you, my friend, sex in a Senate hearing room deserves a shout-out. Deserves a shout-out. If nothing else does. Chad: Yeah, well, I can tell you what the Senator said, he said, everybody's done that, but nobody's stupid enough to actually take a video and put it out there, you got caught 'cause you're an idiot. Joel: Where would be the ultimate on the down low, sex. Would it be the Oval Office? Chad: Oh God, yeah, I mean, if you could pull that off, I don't know how in the hell you'd pull something like that off, but I mean, if you're in a senate room, for God's safe, you go to a SCIF, that's where you go. Joel: I hope it was worth it, man. I hope it was worth it. Chad: Yeah, and what's better than sex in the SCIF is free stuff. Joel: Free stuff almost as good as sex in a Senate hearing room is free stuff from Chad and Cheese. We're talking t-shirts from JobGet, beer from Aspen Tech Labs, a bottle of Bourbon from Chad and myself, our pick from our friends at Textkernel, and if it's your birthday... Chad: What... Joel: And December birthdays are something special, you get a chance to win a bottle of rum from our friends at Plumb. Another trip around the sun is being celebrated by Holland McCue, Monica Abby, Nick Bradford, Mike Politich, Tina Davis, Angela Aguilar, Nick Hutchinson, Kim Grey, Lex Kramer, Ali Raza, Daniel Bailey or Daniel Bailley, Jonathan Martinez, Kelly Havanic, Aaron Matos, and our 25th, December 25th birthdays, our baby Jesus birthdays, go to Jeff Stanton and Craig Rodds who are celebrating on December 25th, which I can't imagine a worst day for a birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Chad: Anywhere inside the holiday region, I think you pretty much get screwed. Joel: Yes, yeah, my dad, who I said turns 84, his is on the 20th. When we drop this, it'll be his birthday, he bitches all the time about how much his birthday sucked because it was right near Christmas. Chad: But what doesn't suck is events, baby. That's why I travel by Shaker Recruitment Marketing. We already have eight. That's right, the Ocho conference is planned for 2024, the very first is an event in San Diego. That's right, kids. Joel: The wells you know what. Chad: Yeah, we're gonna be hanging out with koalas at the zoo, we're gonna be at the zoo with our friends from Qoalafi, that starts with a Q, ends with an I, Qoalafi. You gotta go to chadcheese.com/events. You gotta check out where we're gonna be, we're really stoked about this event, definitely stoked about working with Evan White this year because that guy is going into overdrive, so really excited about 2024. It's shaping up quick, if you wanna get in and you wanna do some booth stuff with us and VIP parties or what have you, get a hold of us ASAP 'cause they're going fast. Joel: Going fast. And by the way, it's not a Chad and Cheese event, but I will be in Montreal in January if you're in town, say Hi, I'll be seeing the HiringBranch folks gonna go see some hockey, the Canadians versus the Oilers, little Connor McDavid I'm pretty excited about that. But yeah, we got a full plate next year, I'm getting till for this shit, I don't know about you. Luckily, we have video that we can do new stuff with, and by the way, if you haven't listened to the Chad and Cheese podcast does data with our friend Toby Dayton at LinkUp, great stuff. We look at the monthly employment reports, we dig down, we simplify it for the Chad and Cheese listeners, learn some stuff, if you haven't looked at that, it's exclusively on YouTube, go to YouTube.com/@chadcheese, subscribe like and share, my friends. And while you're at it leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice, we'd like to know what we can do better and what we did well in 2023 and heading into 2024. And speaking of doing well, Chad fantasy football, fantasy football was not one of my strong suits in this season, my friend. SFX: Boo you suck. Joel: We're getting down to the end. We have our play-off line-ups set, This is our final full leaderboard for you. Top four spaces go to the playoffs for final glory, the chain, the social media, affection and love, our top four all female, all female playoff at Chad and Cheese Fantasy Football, sponsored by our friends at FactoryFix, includes Michelle Sergeant, Dina Parow, Marcy Mall and Jill Patterson pretty much right up there the whole season, those ladies are gonna battle out for the top spot. Your next four are your consolation prize, that's your boy, Chad there, Joe Bag A Dixon gets to battle it out, Dean Osner, Grent Losi and the bottom four... SFX: Boo you suck. Joel: Eliminated, annihilated. Deleted from the whole scene includes me, Jasper Spanger, Dennis I was Number One Last Year Tupper. SFX: Boo you suck. Joel: And the bottom, Kristen Urban. It was a fun season. Our season is over, you're back in the playoff for the consolation prize, I can't wait to see who comes out the winner between Michelle, Dina, Mercy and Jill. It's gonna be fun. Chad: I beat the number one team last week, I was in fifth place. I'm still in fifth place, this is bullshit. Two years in a row. Fifth place fuck. Joel: Can I just say that I hate Christian McCaffrey, I hate Christian McCaffrey. Chad: You've been making fun of Jasper this entire time, but you're just one ahead of him, and I believe he scored more than 100 points more than you did. Joel: Well, his points were calculated on the metric system, so I don't think it was the same as mine. It was much less, I'm sure, or Celsius one of the two. Chad: Touche, touche. Joel: So not Fahrenheit. Let's get to topics. Chad: Topics. Joel: All right Chad. Elon's cyber truck has hit some bumps in the road. Criticisms from organizations like the Center for Auto Safety highlight concerns about the truck's safety and potential dangers it might pose on the road, they argue that the cyber truck's design, particularly its stiff stainless steel panels could cost severe damage in accidents involving pedestrians, cyclists and other vehicles. Additionally regulatory issues in the European Union and skepticism around the truck's safety features, further field the debate across the pond. Chad You're on the waiting list for the cyber truck, I believe. What are your thoughts on these developments... Chad: I gotta go with the Center for Auto Safety who posted on Twitter "At over 6000 pounds, no one will ever doubt your manhood again, we get it, you were picked last in gym and now you want revenge, but this isn't the answer. Buying this is why you were picked last. It's desperate and dangerous to everyone else on the road, stop being picked last." SFX: No God, please no. Chad: So everybody's making fun of Elon, and we're seeing all of these trolled videos where the cyber truck was trying to take a Christmas tree and they were off road and they had to get pulled out by a Ford 150, they are now calling it the sports futility truck not utility, sports futility truck. The thing weighs three tons, almost a half ton more than the EV Ford 150, and on the Europe side of the house, which you mentioned in a Rolling Stone article, "the truck is currently not available in the European Union due in part to regulatory issues, and a Tesla VP has confirmed it's unlikely to ever be sold in the market." This literally is just an Elon... Joel: Vanity project. Chad: Testosterone project. Yeah, and people will buy it. I don't know, it's the ugliest fucking thing I think I've seen. It looks like the Land Rover from Lost in Space from the 1960s. Joel: You mentioned Europe, by the way, Keith Richards turns 80 this week, or turned 80 this week, how the hell that guy is still alive is a mystery to me, but that's a different show. I think just like the Hummer of 20 years ago, this will be a very popular vehicle with a very specific audience of male, more than likely. Have you seen the black one? The black one is totally cool, this thing will not be like the biggest selling car in the world, but there will an audience for this. And will enjoy it. They'll fix the towing stuff, the European thing is gonna be an issue though, 'cause it's a steel car, that's bullet-proof, that just reeks of European regulation to me, in America, it'll be... I think it'll be a hit with a lot of people. We do our predictions show soon, we don't do like pop culture industries like I would predict this car will be around in a decade, this will be a thing that people do embrace. The weight of it is because they want you to get the tax incentives that you do with the Land Rover or like any other big car, that's why it weighs as much as it does, although batteries don't like heavy cars, so I don't know how they kind of... I guess they kind of balance how far it can go with how much it weighs, but the tax incentive will mean a lot of... Every rapper, every CEO in Silicon Valley, this will be a hit with a certain audience, mark my words. Chad: Well, it's not gonna get obviously into Europe, not to mention Europe is starting to tighten down on their EV rebates, so there's a lot that's happening here, so we'll see the prediction show... I do you see it as kind of like a Hummer sales machine per se? The only reason it is gonna be around is because it's an Elon project and he loves this thing. Joel: Yeah, yeah, just like when Schwarzenegger had a Hummer and it took off somebody like... People will drive, they'll give it like heaven forbid, Trump gets re-elected and he drives around in a cyber truck, then it's over. I don't know. Chad: See the big difference between a Hummer and a cyber truck is the Hummer was actually a military vehicle and that motherfucker could go anywhere. I mean, you could not get that thing stuck, I know 'cause I had one and drove it in the jungle when I was 18 or 19 years old, I couldn't get that fucker stuck. Joel: Right, but how many people who bought it needed to get out of tight fixes like that, like they just drove it around downtown Manhattan or whatever, by the way, this will never go over in Ireland because the roads are like 3 feet wide. All right, from one megalomaniac to another, Meta's social media platform Threads has now been introduced in the EU after previously being available in various countries worldwide, including the US, and the UK, since July 2023. The delay in its launch was linked to complexities in complying with new regulations notably, the Digital Markets Act, aimed at regulating big tech companies and set to be effective by March of 2024, Threads is in Europe, Chad, and so are you. What are your thoughts? Chad: So I see this as really a cage match, a pseudo cage match between Zuck and Elon. So this is a Twitter versus Threads kind of scenario. The unfortunate struggle that's happening here is really between idiocracy and civility, Twitter, undergoes EU probes under the new disinformation rules, their failure to combat content disinformation and manipulation. So now we see Threads pushing into Europe and Twitter getting pulled down in Europe. So why? I don't know, because they're amplifying antisemitism. Alex Jones, and even the seditious, Donald Trump was let back on the fucking platform. Twitter's just too toxic for advertisers, billions have been lost. Elon told the advertisers to go fuck off, the blue check mark means nothing anymore, a possible $1 charge and also hiring platform fees, that won't be enough to make up for the billions that they lost in advertising. Chad: Twitter is top heavy, which means the top 10% of users account for 72% of time spent on the platform. Now, on the other hand, Thread's ability to onboard new users through Insta was great, but only if you have an Insta account. So not so good. Threads is opening up, obviously, in the EU, so they're gonna be able to have an opportunity to expand if they've got great penetration for Instagram in EU but the point of the story is that Threads won't kill Twitter. Hate speech is killing Twitter, Elon's public speaking, his tweets and his behavior is already killing Twitter. So Threads just needs to sit back and focus on creating a better product and allow Elon to continue to pour gasoline on the fire that's happening over there right now. Joel: Threads at launch grew incredibly fast, they did a great job of you leveraging Instagram and all your Instagram people are now your Threads people, and adding people was really easy. The problem has been stickiness and keeping people on, how much of that content is the same stuff that I get other places? Our friend Levin who does the European show with us, we asked his take on Threads in Europe, and his comment was tried it wasn't mean enough. Chad: Wasn't toxic enough, yeah. Joel: Well, yeah, it's too nice, people are too pleasant. So there'll be an audience. Chad: Sounds like a horrible world. Joel: And a lot of people are like I'm over Twitter the toxicity, the Elon thing, the politics so they're over it and they're going to Threads. I see us dividing into a world of like, Threads users and Twitter users. And your Twitter user is sort of a brand that's different than Threads. I mean, if you look at every, just about every major company has the gold badge or the gold, that they pay for their account and you see journalists, and. Chad: Not everybody pays for it, though. Joel: Not every... We don't know who they just give it to and who's paying. I mean but Elon, it looked like he was sort of strong arming companies. You remember some people were getting company names and buying the blue check and then posting as I was really Coca-Cola, or I was really IBM and that was a whole mess. So I think that if you're as a social media strategy, you're gonna have to be on Twitter, whether you advertise or not is different. I tend to think that if Twitter advertising actually worked, these companies would figure out an excuse for like sticking with the platform. But it's a shit show, it's sad to me because Elon's launching rockets and landing them, he's giving internet to like the whole world, he's going to Mars and he dinks around with this social media shit. Joel: It just frustrates me. I wish he would focus on this stuff. And even Tesla, right? He has a point when he says, "I've done more for like, the environment than just about anyone on the planet. And you guys are still like up my ass." We're only up his ass because he's a dick on Twitter. So, I don't know, I don't know. This thing is going to a subscription only I think maybe small businesses will advertise, maybe local people, the big guys seem to be not wanting any part of it, but I think it's gonna go more subscription, they're gonna give you more and more reasons to pay them a hundred bucks a year. And that's the business model in my opinion. Threads will monetize like Instagram and Facebook and in all this, TikTok is kicking everyone's ass. Chad: Exactly, exactly, yeah. Joel: Yeah. Which, speaking of bets have you gotten your bourbon yet from the Indeed Whisperer, Jim Durbin? [laughter] Chad: Not yet. I have not gotten it, but yeah, I will ask my people who are watching over the house to see if I've gotten it so we shall see, because TikTok still running strong in the US of A. As a matter of fact, I might even predict that, flipping this, that next year Twitter in some European countries will be nixed, because of the disinformation and how he's not managing it and EU might put a smack on and say, "we're gonna close you down in the EU." And yet Twitter will still be, or not Twitter, but, TikTok will still be running in the US. Joel: By the way TikTok genius PR campaign, Twitter could take a little bit of a hint or a tip from what TikTok is doing, marketing and PR-wise, 'cause it's Playbook Masterclass, brilliant. Chad: Elon would have to shut up, and that's never gonna happen. Joel: Yeah, it's never gonna happen, it's never gonna happen. Well, let's you and I shut up for a few seconds and pay some bills and listen to some of our sponsors, we'll be right back. SFX: A crummy commercial son of a bitch. Joel: All right, Chad, what's better to ring in the holiday season than a game of Who'd You Rather, and in honor of our friend Levin over in Europe, we're doing a ménage à trois edition of Who'd You Rather, by talking about three companies, and at the end of those summaries, talking about Who'd You Rather of those three, are you ready to play Who'd You Rather ménage à trois style? Chad: Let's do it. Joel: Let's do it, all right. First up is Berlin Urban Sports Club, they've secured 95 million Euros to strengthen their wellness market presence. Surging employee demand for wellbeing programs drives companies to invest in benefits like those offered by the Urban Sports Club. Next up, we have Harriet, a London-based AI solution for HR data management, they've secured 1.39 million euros in pre-seed funding. They focus on cleaning data, offering tailored support and easing HR tasks through its AI powered, assistant accessible via Slack teams and other platforms. And last but not least is Mistral, Paris based Mistral AI established by Meta and Google Researchers, has secured 385 million euros in funding, valued at $2 billion, pioneering AI chatbots. It focuses on open source technology, challenging major players like OpenAI and AI Advancements. The company says it's open source AI contrasts with tech giant's Guarded approach, emphasizing community driven development for safer, more robust software. Urban Sports Club, Harriet or Mistral, Chad, who'd you rather? Chad: So the sports club. This sounds like a perfect model for employees in Europe in a very fad-ish culture for the US looking for free kombucha bar, of the day idea, right? I mean, it seems like free breakfast, free kombucha, that kind of thing has been kind of like the thing, the fad in the US but they don't always last too long. I don't see something like this lasting incredibly long in the US because to be quite frank, employers don't give two shits about their employees. They act like they do, for the most part, there are some that generally do but they're looking at these organizations as a way to just try to suck some attention in to be able to prospectively pitch, their organization. Harriet, an integrated Slack system. Chad: I mean, that's really what it is, is Slack is the core vehicle for widespread and easy adoption. And then using other, much harder to navigate data repository systems like Google Drive, Notion, HiBob, Bamboo, Zapier for the accumulation and the training of that data, this is a really a keep it simple stupid model, I love it, I love it to death. This is awesome, but it feels more like a feature than a bigger LLM 'cause they're just focusing on policies, best practices, those types of things. So I really love it, but it's not as big as Mistral, European, LLM founded in May, this May, by three former Meta and Google AI researchers funded by Andreessen, Nvidia, Salesforce, BNP... Do I need to fucking go on? I mean, this has all the right ingredients to work since Europe needs another major LLM player, I'm gonna pick Who I'd rather Mistral all damn day. Joel: Mistral, you like those high, high priced, high price, companies, don't you? So, talk about David and Goliath. We got one company at 1.39, pre-seed 95 million, and then like the granddaddy here at 2 billion valuation, Mistral. So the Urban Sports Club thing, I do love businesses that like to make companies feel good about what they're doing, whether it's a diversity program, benefits program. And in this case, we let our folks go to the sports club or whatever network this is, to socialize, work out, get healthy, get balanced, etcetera. So I think they will find a very strong market, they've been around for a long time, so they've grown organically. And who better to sort of manage this than the country that invented kindergarten, out of Germany, Urban Sports Club. Joel: So I like the business, but do I like it more than the other two? Harriet total agreement that this is a feature, probably not a standalone company and that's probably how they're built, that's probably why they only have a million some in pre-seed, they are a piece to a bigger puzzle, someone like a Personio, a HiBob that someone like that should come along and gobble up someone like Harriet. I do like the name by the way, it's kind of cute. But yeah, to me this is sort of like, I don't know, scenery in a bigger picture, the real show here, the act, the name on the marquee is Mistral this thing has an amazing potential to disrupt everything. Look, open source has a pretty, pretty long and illustrious career in technology. Joel: WordPress comes to mind, PHP, Linux comes to mind, which is basically the backbone of a lot of websites and technologies that are out there. So the question is, can you take Linux and what they did and even WordPress and take this sort of community-based, development and infrastructure and compete with OpenAI and Gemini, Bard, whatever Google's gonna come out with, and I see Facebook being the backbone for a lot of new things. Our final story about porn, includes Meta and their AI, so they're in there as well. How this will impact our industry though, I think is really, we don't know yet. So this is an open source chatbot, right? How many times have we talked about chatbots? Are they ubiquitous in our industry? Whether it's Paradox, Wade and Wendy, you name it. Joel: All the ones that are out there, is this gonna make it super easy for someone to create a chatbot that will compete with Paradox? We don't know yet, but it certainly seems like the bones are there for someone to just put the meat on it to have a competitive product. Everything that Gemini's gonna build, or can this will probably be a much cheaper, much easier to use, less guarded, less walled technology that people can use to build products in our space. I'm being long-winded, but it's my short answer of saying that Mistral also, you and I can fight over Mistral as to who gets what there, in this ménage à trois edition of Who'd You Rather. But that is kind of a slam dunk for me, it wasn't really even that difficult of a decision. SFX: Shall we play a game? Joel: Which brings us to, self checkout. We've never talked about this. I don't think. This will be fun, so self checkout, promise, convenience, cost saving and efficiency. But faces criticism. Customers complain about glitches. Retailers combat theft, and some stores like Walmart and Target are testing alternatives. Labor shortage drove its expansion, yet rising frustrations and theft concerns persist despite having fans and being a technology advancement. Workers monitoring self-checkout stations face safety risks and customer hostility. Chad is self-checkout on the way out? Joel: Well, I thought it was interesting that, one of the people in the article actually talked about discounts, if I'm going to check myself out, I should at least get a 5% discount, which would be fairly simple for like a Kroger, because, you know, they're gonna raise their prices by 5%, right? And then everybody's going to pay that 5% tax at the actual human register, right? So a lot of this from a confluence standpoint doesn't make sense. Labor is gonna be hard to find to be able to do those jobs, we're already seeing that labor is hard to find as it is. Theft, they already had that into the equation when they started, they're bitching about it now, they're full of shit, their profits are higher than they've ever been. Grocery I know has, lower profit margins, but they're a lot bigger than what they have been. Chad: They're pulling in a shit ton of cash, and their CEOs are getting paid more than they ever have. Bernadette Christian, 59, a worker at Giant Food in Clinton, Maryland mans six self-service stations at once. And she's afraid to help or confront shoppers who she said had become angrier since the pandemic. And I would say even before that, we've just had more of an angry kind of a feel in the US. So yeah, you're talking about Bernadette. Bernadette doesn't wanna come up to you and say, "Hey, what's that in your coat pocket? Or wait a minute, what did you just put in your bag? Did you scan that?" Right? I mean, you're putting these people under some very, very horrible conditions, they've gotta watch six of these things. They've gotta come over to me and I've gotta wait for them to scan my driver's license so that I can get my Bourbon when I want it, there's just too many things that are happening here. So they're playing with the not enough labor, and then when you start to do these self checkouts, you have to have labor on the self checkouts, so it's literally, I think, a problem they've created for themselves. Joel: When I was growing up, my mom would get paid on Friday and she would go to the bank and deposit, like give a check to the teller and say, "I want X amount of cash back," which was the cash she had for the week. And then from there, we would go to the gas station and we would sit in line and wait for the guy who pumped the gas to eventually come over to the car and have my mom say, "fill her up." He'd fill it up, give cash, he'd have the little change thing on his belt and give money back. This was the world before self-service. Chad: He would wash your vehicle and he would check your oil too. Joel: Depending on... Well, in our neighborhood, not so much, maybe in the high class district that you lived in. But the point is like, full service sucks for a lot of people, I would much rather ATM it, not talk to anybody, pump my own gas, that's the world I prefer, and I never, ever check out from the grocery store, with the person, the cashier. I like my own stuff. I get it done quicker. I'm more efficient, and I love when I go to Costco or Sam's Club and I have an App where I can scan the product and I can pay on my phone, and I literally walk out and I have a barcode and the guy goes, boop, and he checks my thing and says, "have a nice day." Like, that's the world I wanna live in. It scares me to think that we're talking about going back to the days of old or getting rid of some of this stuff. The problem is just like the dude in Walmart with the baseball bat that wants to beat up the janitorial robot. People are gonna like, find ways around the system. How do I steal stuff? How do I raise a stink with the 22-year-old that's like overseeing 20 self-serve kiosks. What happened to the day when Amazon bought Whole Foods and we were supposed to just like walk in, and they were supposed to scan us somehow and know what we picked up off the shelf and we just walked out and it charged our Amazon account? Like when is that coming? There's gotta be a happy medium, there's gotta be a way to verify, let people go out the 5% discount. Joel: Sure, that's great., but that'll be more people in the self-serve, which will create more self-serve issues if we add discounts to that. I for one hope they don't get rid of this, or how do you secure it? 'Cause we can't go back to standing in line having the cashier scan everything and like "Al butter on aisle four need a price check," and like they go, that world sucks. I love the self-serve world, figure it out, the theft thing I think is crazy, but our tech should be such now that these aren't issues. Dammit. Chad: So here's the thing. I'm here in Europe, I go to Aldi, I go to Lidl I go to the Continent and they don't have any of these self-check aisles. You go through a person and nobody has a problem with that because they're patient and they understand that nobody's gonna die in this process. As Americans, we want it now, we want it yesterday, and that's one of the reasons why Bernadette Christian is really scared to confront people because we Americans have turned into fucking assholes. These toxic Twitter tweets have really just embodied who we've become. We care about ourselves, we don't care about the people around us, this is about our experience. And there's no reason why this can't work like it used to, I do love this self scan. I do love it, don't get me wrong. I haven't used it in three months since I've been here, you know why? 'cause I don't need to. Joel: You're right, it's a state of mind. There's a comedian that talks about Waze, the program where it helps you drive and miss traffic and he hates it because aside from the fact that it makes you go through a neighborhood you don't know and like cut through places and sort of be like... Is your life that like urgent that you can't sit in your car for 10 more minutes and listen to music or think about life or appreciate what you have? Yes, we're way too fucked up in America, but we ain't going back in America, that's for damn sure. If anything, it'll be more like delivery and I don't even wanna leave my house, I just wanna sit in my lazy boy and Netflix, Madman episodes. Chad: And what about that says community. Joel: Nothing. [laughter] Chad: Nothing, we've turned into a non-community, community. Anyway, get me the fuck out of this. Joel: I know, I know. Thank God we have Chipotle to interact with each other. [laughter] SFX: A crummy commercial. Son of bitch. Joel: All right, Chad, you took the porn stories away from me last week with the ICIMS CEO news news break. So I gotta get it in. Chad: I didn't think that ICIMS did that. Joel: Yeah, I know ICIMS did that, we gotta get that dude on the show. All right. So, Sophie Dee, a veteran porn star, she's about 38 years old, I think is collaborating with an AI company to create a digital alter ego, Sophie AI resembling her appearance and voice utilizing Meta's AI model. STXT trains the AI with explicit conversations, personal details, and AI generated images to simulate Sophie Dee. Sophie AI aims to sustain her income post performing years, offering subscribers a personalized experience at a monthly fee, drawing in around 700 users to date. While Dee anticipates ongoing success, some of the industry like Allie Rae, Allie Rae find the technology premature, premature and not lucrative enough for sex work cautioning against its hasty adoption. Chad, your take on the escalating drama of porn and AI. Chad: So scale, baby scale, and I mean, Allie Rae was, I believe the nurse who was making $30,000 a month or currently is on OnlyFans. Well, of course she doesn't wanna see this happen because this is the next move. We're gonna be able to scale from OnlyFans, which is beautiful because if you think about it, okay, so if you're a stripper and you're on on the stage, you have that time. That's it, that's all you get, but if you go to OnlyFans, you have all of the obviously content library that you've created over the years, and that's scalable. People can dig into it, they can go through it over and over and over if they want to, but you're continuing to add to that, and that scales, well. What scales better than that? Being able to create not just conversations in chats, but to be able to scale those chats to thousands of people at once with one chatbot, and then be able to use possibly looking down the road multimodal where you're actually creating videos and voice. This is the next step, and I really think that if any company is smart enough, and again, this is a Blockbuster Netflix scenario, Blockbuster should have bought Netflix. OnlyFans needs to buy one of these companies, and they need to make it a pretty much a fee for anybody who wants to use it, and they're just making transactional money, they could really explode with that kind of model. SFX: Prince Ehhhh!. Joel: Explode, explode you say? Our friend Adam Gordon and I had a small back and forth on the history of this or the future of this. And he's pretty convinced as I am as well, that they'll still be humans doing this, they'll still be humans, like real people showing skin and doing whatever, pornographic that they want to do. Chad: It'll be more. Joel: The challenge is, and it's, to me, it's... Yeah, to me it's this conflict between the new face of porn OnlyFans and spare time and showing skin and everything, and maybe a few chats here and there, versus a old aging porn star being able to leverage her brand and her portfolio of work, if you will, and being able to provide that in a virtual format for the rest of her life. Frankly, she can still be 25 and whatever when she's 75. But the key there is she's a porn star that has built a brand and an audience, whereas if I just go on OnlyFans and have not done porn or not have any kind of wide audience, the chances that I become rich are much less. And I hate the idea of competing with porn stars from the past now are producing porn, well into their golden years. Throw in the fact that you're gonna get VR at some level, you're gonna get sex robots, and this thing is gonna get strange. Chad: I know. Joel: You're gonna be able to customize, you know, the girl you dated, you know, the one night stand you had back in '98, I want to produce her and like, go back in time. Chad: That's just so fucking creepy. Joel: That's where it's going, dude or I want to like, I love Jennifer Aniston, or I love whoever Selena Gomez, I want to have her as my slave, digital slave, sex, whatever. Chad: People are going to own their own likenesses at that point, let's hope so that we don't have to play that game, oh my God. Joel: But it'll be personalized, it'll be just for me. I'm not gonna publish it anywhere, it's just for me, it's just for my... I don't know how you police that this thing is going weird, but it's too easy to scale and the costs are too low to not disrupt what OnlyFans is doing and the money that girls are making on OnlyFans that is not sustainable when you look at what technology is doing. I hope they never digitize Santa because I'm on the nice list this year Chad, and I can't wait to see what's under my tree. How about you? . Chad: Hopefully it's not an AI, girlfriend, 'cause I don't need any of that shit. Joel: Those are skeletons Chad does not need. Based on your background of booze Santa has already seen you, my friend, happy holidays we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas send bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Recorded live at the HR Tech Conference from the Fuel50 booth in Las Vegas, Chad & Cheese connect with Zachary Chertok, Market and Industry Analyst at IDC to dive into the realm of HR tech and employee experience. Chertok has a strong professional background in the Human Capital Management (HCM) space, and addresses shifts in workforce management due to the pandemic, the ever-evolving tech stack, data centralization, and the overall challenges faced by HR professionals. Chertok also highlighted the importance of aligning HR strategies with business goals and the complexities of HR navigating between advocating for employees and organizational constraints. Notably, he also shared some interesting observations from HR Tech, such as a trend towards emphasizing the data use case over functionality, and noted advancements in areas like skills taxonomy, benefits tools, and more nuanced vendor differentiation. To learn more about Fuel50, visit https://fuel50.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah! What's up everybody? It's your rabbi's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always, the Bob to my Doug McKenzie. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Chad Sowash is in the house. And we are happy, excited, giddy, to welcome Zach Chertok... Chad: Giddy. [chuckle] Joel: To the podcast. He is Research Analyst of Employee Experience at IDC. If you don't know IDC, they're a global provider of market intelligence advisory services and events for the IT telecom and consumer tech markets, summaries provided by our friends at LinkedIn. Zach, welcome to the podcast. Chad: That was in ChatGPT. [laughter] Zach Chertok: I was gonna say it's good to be here, but yeah, that's probably the most intense summary I've seen in a long time of what we do. But we kind of live at the nexus of the buyer, the investor and the vendor. So providing guidance to all three so that the cycle knows what's going on. Joel: I want listeners to know that Zach is really smart and I feel smarter before we even push record. Chad: Yes, yes. Joel: So put your thinking caps on kids. We're gonna go deep. Chad: You don't know where this is gonna go. Joel: We're gonna go... Not just the tip. We're gonna go deep in on this one. Chad: We're gonna go deep on this one. Joel: So, Zach, before we get to that, we like our listeners to know who they're listening to. So give us a little bit about you as a person and then we'll get to all the company stuff. Zach Chertok: Well, sure. So I'll start professional and then go a little bit more personal into what I do when I don't have a hat on. Joel: Do you Zack? Zach Chertok: But professionally, I've been in and around the HCM space for the last 15 years. Kind of fell civil engineering by training out of McGill, fell backwards through project management into the tech sector. Consequence of graduating in the financial crisis. Nobody builds anything when capital's slow, but... Joel: It's crazy, isn't it? Zach Chertok: Yeah, I know. Chad: Imagine that. Zach Chertok: You know from the vendor side with Kronos for four years, then went off into the analyst side and I have kind of been on all sides of the sector. So investor, developer, practitioner, analyst, the list goes on, kind of creates a unique flow of... Joel: Don't forget Virgin Pulse. You need to throw a little Virgin Pulse in there. Zach Chertok: So, the wonderful thing when you change analyst firms is when you live in a state that stands by non-competes, you tend to... Yeah, analysts tend to go into the product marketing world for a while. [laughter] So I ran end-to-end HCM coverage for Aberdeen for four and a half years. And during the pandemic, transitioned back into the product marketing world with Virgin Pulse and WorkForce Software for a bit. I got a lot of exposure to worlds... One world I hadn't necessarily been independently yet. And another one that I was kind of returning to with Virgin Pulse was the new one, mainly integrated wellbeing. And from a functional standpoint, inside organizations I always kind of knew what it was about, covered it from that vantage point, but learned a lot about its impact on the overall benefits management realm, getting exposure to the healthcare side of it and the mental stress side of it. Zach Chertok: By working and sifting through everything VP was looking at and honestly post being there, it's wonderful to see sort of how they've been evolving as well in the time now that I've been at IDC and with WorkForce Software, I really got thrown into the nexus of workforce management, employee experience. They were going through the acquisition of what is now workforce experience. And again, it was great to see how that played out and how it really filled niches and for frontline workers that were kind of really going... Statically going unmanaged by some of the broader experience space. And then got the call one day, fortunately from one of my earliest mentors in the field, Lisa Rowan, who was running HCM for IDC, they were looking for a new employee experience analyst, I agonized about it for about four days 'cause I was working for an organization that I loved, but opportunity to go work for a mentor and ultimately made the jump to IDC. Joel: Come on, Zach, give me some personal stuff. This is HR. Give me some walks on the beach, give me some poetry reading, give me something. Zach Chertok: So I will tell you that when you're covering HCM, I joke with a lot of people. The good news is market high, market low. Everybody needs to reorganize a company, so I'll never be out of a job. The bad news is nothing is transactional or rational about this. So you need borderline a degree in clinical science... In clinical psychology rather, to be able to understand which end is up. The nature of that means is that when I'm in my off time, I wanna go someplace where nobody can reach me. So I'm either hiking on a mountain or I've got my head underwater swimming. My two sort of offsite passions. Joel: I'm hanging with Aaron Rogers in a unlit doomsday machine. [laughter] Anyway, alright, so we were talking before the episode about your role at IDC, the cats that you're herding. Let's dig into that. Tell us about it. Set the table and dig in. Zach Chertok: Well, as I said earlier, at IDC, we work a lot both with the buyer, the investor and the vendor side. So we kinda have this trifecta of personas that we drive sort of to and around each other. And the last three, four years since the pandemic loosened... The restrictions loosened up, organizations started opening up, hiring, picked up, all of that have been just dramatic for transition in every corner of how the workforce is managed, how it's engaged, what the frontline looks, and how it's even defined. And what that means is within the three areas of coverage that we have at IDC, talent acquisition, modern HR, which really focuses on core HR and HCM for the HR stakeholder, and then employee experience, which is frontline automation, resource personalization, everything for the frontline and the front office. We all three spaces have been drawn really tighter together to look at how they relationally interact as the nature of the tech stack is changing for organizations. So we're moving on from kind of this functional solution proposition into the concept of the data use case. Chad: So do you guys... Do you actually help with the tech stack in being able to identify where were there redundancies? 'Cause, I mean, many, many companies have way too many solutions in their stack as it is today. Zach Chertok: Oh, yeah. Chad: You take a look at some of the core offerings from their applicant tracking system or their HCM and they've either acquired or they've created features that do what their point solutions do. It seems like there's just all this feature bloat redundancy. What do you guys... Which obviously is a great job for you to slim them down. Joel: Well, we had J and J on. All he said was three figures in terms of how many tools they had, which blew my mind. Zach Chertok: Yeah. I mean, even when you get it down into the s and b scaling... I mean, look, the pathway to automation and digital transformation still, not that they're the same thing, but still follows the traditional path of small business organically grows... Automates by need, hits the mid-level and either they can organically transition into whichever one of the major solutions that they're using a part of fulfills consolidation. But more often than not, they end up in this, okay, we gotta pivot and think strategically here and get our solutions pulled together. And then the suite play comes in. And we're dealing in a market now with Suite 2.0. 1.0 was six to 10 years ago where each functional silo had its suite and Turn-Key HR could turn the lights on and IT wasn't really needed. Zach Chertok: It turns out, oops, IT is kind of needed. 'Cause all the data sets have to talk to each other. [laughter] Because finance and ops need to know what people are doing. HR needs to know how budget is thinking and all the decisions have impacts on each other. So now we're a functional suite 2.0, where the data lake is being created cross functionally operationally, and through one mechanism or another, whether it's a functional suite box that sits on top of the lake or it's a direct reach into the lake. We're seeing the functional users still have their functionality ownership. But the data ownership is really spread organization wide. So we're seeing a lot of demand for Suite 2.0 come first from the mid-market and then scale up into the enterprise. I think the enterprise just really to the J and J example, needs to inventory their landscape. Chad: Oh God! Yes. Zach Chertok: Understand and start to consolidate their buying centers, and not necessarily say one person's gonna be in charge for a huge disparate conglomerate like that. But that there's gonna be sort of buying guidelines as to how it all needs to fit together and how the data management gets consolidated. Chad: So that data lake that you're talking about, how big of a disruption and/or just impact overall is large language models and contextualizing all that data and then being able to scale faster. How's that going to change that next suite? Zach Chertok: Yeah. So the concept of LLM, it's funny, every time I go out to San Francisco, I always catch up with a friend for dinner who works in... I just call the field a digital simplicity, 'cause it's the easiest way to describe what he does. But when I always start talking about these concepts, 'cause it's very easy to live in the HCM Tech bubble, and all that, and get wrapped up in the language. He just constantly looks at me, he says, "Okay, simplify it." And we just... We go through these cycles. He describes things like GenAI, LLMs, as really machine learning that learns from itself. So it kind of whittles it down into more of a core concept. And so when we're talking about the use of LLMs, and again, at the broader concept of GenAI in these massive data sets, we're really kind of in the early stages of what it can do. Zach Chertok: So we're using it for kind of guided speech breaking writer's block, basic guided functional recommendations. But steering away from decision frameworks, which is good, 'cause we still don't want people to be dependent. We wanna augment kind of the synthesis of information so that the decision makers can stay in the decision timing. And not in the aggregate research timing. So for the knowledge segments, the decision makers, it's a pretty powerful time reducer. What we kind of expect, kind of in the dream state, if you were to have a world's fair tomorrow, what could we do with this? Is that LLMs do potentially hold the capacity to reconcile disparate data sets without a direct data link. So when you think about could we integrate systems at the data level without literally having them physically talk to each other having a physical pathway? Zach Chertok: Could an LLM do that? Conceptually, sure. Reconcile into a common language and translate and bring the data sets together. Does that mean that we're gonna sustain a lot of solution disparity further than we should? Probably not, because then it bleeds into the functional use case and employees get unhappy. But then we have vendors like a ServiceNow, for example, who will sit over the top and build a single portal regardless of how many solutions you have. So what we're seeing is an explosion in really the opportunities for how you can come at your solution space based on how your buying centers are structured, how centralized or disaggregated your organizational decision lines are, but with the fundamental component of the fact that your data needs to be centralized. So no matter what happens, that part is becoming non-negotiable. So the data use case is driving the sale more so now than the functional use case. Joel: And I loved how you framed the issue of all the... Everyone's using the same data or you're building bridges to different departments, which I think is your role or part of your role. Talk about what IDC is using to get marketing, to talk to HR, to talk to whoever. 'cause that's gotta be a hell of a challenge. Zach Chertok: A whole lot of buyer guidance. When I have calls with buyers... Now, imagine... I mean, I've been a student and rather a snarky student of management philosophy and cycles for the last 15 years. When it came time for grad school, I kind of said, "Okay, you're not gonna do the MBA, 'cause I'm getting paid to study it. So why would I pay to study it?" Not that I don't talk to the experts. I mean, I get access to researchers at different institutions all over the place because of what I do. So still in the vein of having more questions than answers, contrary to what this sounds like. But [laughter] the first thing is when I get on the call with a buyer is I find out who's in the room to really understand and dive deep into what kind of influence do they have, just to find out what they really need. Zach Chertok: If HR is in the room without a doubt, they're gonna need a business case, otherwise they wouldn't be coming to us. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Right. Zach Chertok: But they also need a little bit of functional guidance to understand, okay, is what you're thinking you need actually what you need. So let's dig into your deeper problem and see if there is a causality that you haven't looked at yet. So that before you go down the road of this particular functional piece, is there a way that you can better connect it into your core strategy, into your inner strategy? Or is really just the extension, what you need because you've already done the rest. More often than not, they haven't done the rest. Not to their discredit, it's just that they have so many challenges that come to their desk. If it's just the HR person that they're just trying to manage through it because... Chad: They're fighting fires. Zach Chertok: Well, and their staff counts, honestly, have not increased. And we know this, and their budgets are kind of stagnant, same as they've always been. So they're trying to make the best of what they have. And I don't blame them. More often than not though, where I can, if the conversation gets to a point where I'm in violent agreement with the HR person, [laughter] okay, fine, go pull your finance person out of whatever meeting they're in and bring them to the call. Or we're gonna schedule another call. And I'm gonna talk to them about it because I can tell you about the budget need that you need to make to realize the investment on the back end. Because we've looked at this a hundred bazillion times. Finance people are fun. [laughter] I'm probably the only person that's gonna describe them as fun because I discovered the reason why they... I keep telling them what they're doing wrong and they keep coming back for more is because I was in a meeting with a vendor a couple of weeks ago and I finally heard how it was coming out of my mouth. And I realized I sound like they're mothers. It's the discipline they either did or didn't get as a child, and it dust off nostalgia, so they keep coming back for more. [laughter] Joel: Oh come on, are you gonna name some names or not? Zach Chertok: No, I will protect the innocent from this one, but... Joel: Ah, ain't no fun. Zach Chertok: But I realize that's really what it boils down to is that to take, for a lack of better words, squishy subjects in HR and people management, the behavioral stuff that finance really doesn't wanna have to care about that is not... It is too behavioral for operations, transactional management styles to take all of that and put it into language that they're gonna respond to, they need a certain air of confidence when the proverbial experts come into the room to convince them and get them over the edge, which is where HR has a challenge. I mean, when I teach students. I teach... Teaching for Columbia HCM for five years, the first thing we do is teach them the difference between an HR leader and the BHR, the Business HR. Because you have to walk in with that confidence. You have to know your numbers. You have to be able to answer these questions and develop your wit to be quick on your response. Chad: Well, you have to know what the business does. And HR doesn't understand... Again, when they're trying to go after budget, they have to understand how they impact sales, how they impact marketing, how they impact engineering. Joel: How do we make money again? That's... Chad: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Zach Chertok: But the other challenge that they face too is HR is caught between... Is caught almost in a no win win, no win sandwich here. Because I think it's cute that everybody thinks that with the advent of a CHRO, HR got a seat at the table. Chad: No. [laughter] Zach Chertok: Here's what really happened. Finance and ops moved their seats slightly further apart so the CHRO could bring a folding chair to the table. [laughter] That's what happened. So you think about the picture of fighting, fighting, fighting to get a position where your face, your visage is seen among the people at the table. But you have to toe the line or you'll be easily kicked out of the room. And so once, HR is advocating for the organization and is listening to what is bubbling up from the line of business, but is caught with just how far they can advocate for that at the table, or risk losing their seat. Zach Chertok: So even as employee experience, for example, starts to come to the fore as a line of business mandate, with the data managed between, with the HR, IT partnership, we're seeing a lot more of the responsibility for that come from line of business management as a challenge to HR's remit, because line of business management has not fought for the seat at the table. They don't have anything to lose in standing up for what the employees want and need to see. So we start to see in some organizations the HR line of business partnership forms well, in other organizations we see line of business management kind of threatening what the remit of HR should be and adopting some of those characteristics. Joel: We're here at HR Tech a big shoe where everybody samples their wear. Chad: Really, really big shoe. Joel: Why are you here? What have you seen at the show that has piqued your interest? What technologies or companies have you excited give us your HR tech experience breakdown? Zach Chertok: Well, I will admit it's colored by probably the seven conferences that I've been to before this. But on the sweet side, when we look at the big players, like I call the big three what's your Workday SAP Oracle from an integrated standpoint, they're definitely pursuing the data cap ownership across the entire operations layer. So we've seen a lot of transformation in the full tech stack from them, which has been an interesting journey. We see sort of more strategic alignment and unity. Again, the big concept really is going to market on the data use case for a lot of vendors, still promoting functionality but at the end of the day, the data use case is setting the value proposition. It's more committed to this year that than it was last year. I always joke that, what's the buzzword this year that's gonna make me wanna throw up walking on the floor? [laughter] Zach Chertok: I had a toss up between GenAI and skills. Not that either one is lacking in value. I just challenge people to say define it. [laughter] It turned out to be responsible AI. Joel: Ooh. Chad: Ooh. Zach Chertok: Now mind you, good concept, but there's no standard definition, so make me believe it. So it's the one that I kind of challenged them. "Okay. About maybe a third of you actually have a good definition for it." So that was what it turned out to be. But like last year, I'm up in the analyst room, we do a lot of briefings with vendors across the board. This is the best place for us to meet everybody all in one place. See what they're doing. Talk about our upcoming research, what else should be in the purview, and kind of have that meeting of the minds. Zach Chertok: And like last year, we're not getting a lot of marketing buzz speak from them. They're being very... All of you are being very... Fuel50, as we're sitting here being included, is being very frank with what is coming to market, what we see that they're not doing. There's a lot more humility in the room. And not just among the vendor space among both myself and the analyst too. That pretense is gone and it was gone last year. It's nice to see that it's sustaining into this year. And then at a functional level, seeing some of the gray spaces between some of these new concepts getting filled. So skills, great. It's come on the board. I get it. Organizations want better adaptability and maneuverability and skills does it, it decouples the employee's sense of value from their role to how they actually contribute. And so that there's opportunities for growth personalization, to put it short. Joel: Yeah. Zach Chertok: But organizations need guidance into building their foundational taxonomies before they can get into a dynamic skills architecture. So a lot of folks want to get there, they just don't know how to start. 'Cause a lot of HR isn't trained on the ontology framework. Joel: No. Chad: No. Zach Chertok: So we've seen some vendors come forward with guiding that foundational ontology creation, whether at a service level or an automation level, that's an example of a gray area. On the benefit side, we've seen a lot of employee dashboard guidance to decisions based on tie-ins on variable benefit structures and wellbeing alongside benefits data from historical health records. If I had a benefits tool that would allow me to equitably select my plan based on my health history and participation, oh my God, benefits would be a breeze. I wouldn't dread sifting through those 150 day page document nonsense from the insurers or even using a basic comparison tool and having to sift through 70,000 boxes. Zach Chertok: So those are the examples of the gray areas between functional peak triangles that we're seeing start to get filled in. Because the world is in transition right now, there's a lot of opportunity as more of those areas are opening up that we're seeing vendors differentiate themselves into. Even if their original core propositions are still comparable. So there's a lot more differentiation between even like vendors than we've seen in previous years. Joel: Can you dig it? I knew that you could. Chad: Amen. Joel: Zach, for our listeners who wanna know more about you, where would you send them? Zach Chertok: You can feel free to either find me on LinkedIn under just my straight last name... First and last name rather. Or you can certainly reach out at Z-C-H-E-R-T-O-K@idc.com. Joel: Big brain, lots of snark, and he says visage, not visage. [laughter] Chad: Check that. Joel: Chad, that is another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two Chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back, like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

When the Chad's away, the Cheese will play. With Sowash taking a PTO day, Cheese welcomes guest co-host Jim Stroud, editor at SourceCon to fill-in. We're talkin' the state of sourcing, Indeed's double moonwalk from pricing and employees, a drop in the jobs report, Remote launching an Upwork competitor (or is it Fiverr?). Plus, life imitates art at Chipotle, Minnesota strippers and plenty of rizz. Enjoy, ya' filthy animals. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Joel Cheesman (00:47.156) two guys who are just dripping with Riz. What's up kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Bunker Cheesman. Jim Stroud (00:51.486) Hahaha Jim Stroud (00:57.714) And I'm Jim Heisenberg Stroud. Joel Cheesman (01:00.292) And on this episode, Indeed backtracks the state of sourcing and US job openings dropped to a two year low. Let's do this. Jim Stroud (01:11.159) Woop woop! Joel Cheesman (01:14.244) All right, guys, programmatic is all the rage. All the kids are doing it. It's dripping with Riz, like I said in the intro. Well, if you're into programmatic advertising, you gotta check out JobAdX. JobAdX is a programmatic solution that will help put your jobs on ludicrous speed for the best talent that you can possibly find. Now, in our last episode, we talked about Twitter getting into the job board game. Well, guess who backfills Twitter jobs? It's appcast. And I know a lot of you out there using appcast, but do you want your jobs on Twitter with the whole cesspool of garbage content that's out there? Well, if you don't, you owe it to yourself to look at some new programmatic uh, solutions and you owe it yourself to check out job ad X one of our longest standing sponsors, we love them. And we know that you will love them too. Find out more by going to job at X that's J O B A D and the letter X. dot com. Joel Cheesman (02:19.228) All right. So this is a special snow Chad bootleg edition of the Chad and cheese podcast. Now, for those of you don't know, Chad is gone. He's he's building his European real estate empire. He's MCing London events, etc. So so it's just me and a co host, which I'll get to in a second. But this is not going to be edited whatsoever. If we screw up, we screw up. If we say something like there's no turning back, right? This is like your favorite Pearl Jam bootleg from 1996. It's going to have scratches. It's going to have, you know, the couple in the back making out. It's going to have the dog barking, like all things are going to. So, so be, be warned. This is what you signed up for today. And with that, I want to introduce our special, special cohost. Jim Stroud, the man, the myth, the legend is here with me today. Jim, welcome to the podcast. Jim Stroud (03:12.982) Whoop whoop! Thank you sir for having me, I do appreciate it. Joel Cheesman (03:18.212) You bet. So for those of our listeners that don't know, man, your, your career has been Toad's wild ride. Uh, give us, give us like a 32nd, uh, career of gym. And we'll get to the present day stuff. Jim Stroud (03:33.646) Sure, 20 years in the biz, sort of an OG, worked for Microsoft, Google, Siemens, string of startup companies. At one point I was the global head of recruiting and sourcing strategy for Ransat SourceWrite. When I was not doing that, I was writing books, producing crazy videos and podcasts, and it brought me all to the job that I have today and I'm so excited about it. Joel Cheesman (04:00.688) we will get to in a second. But yeah, you and I met 18 years ago or so. You haven't aged a bit and I look like Gandalf from Lord of the Rings now. So yeah, right, right. What? Anyway, I won't get canceled on this episode. I refuse to do it. You worked at MCI, which I didn't. Jim Stroud (04:02.379) Yes. Jim Stroud (04:07.014) Yeah? Well, this is a filter, so you know. Jim Stroud (04:19.79) Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe Yes, that was my first gig in sourcing 1997. Stone Age. Joel Cheesman (04:28.08) And that create in college or in high school, I think I used to try to get people to sign up on MCI and I would get like a penny for every call they made or something like, I don't remember exactly what it was, but yeah, MCI, which became sprint, I think. Yeah. So long. Jim Stroud (04:37.405) Oh. Jim Stroud (04:41.678) Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, yeah, British telecom bought them and then I think sold them to Sprint Something like that. Yeah Joel Cheesman (04:48.324) Yeah, we're old basically. That's, that's what we're saying. That's what we're saying. Well, Jim, I, I appreciate you coming on the show. Uh, don't try to don't, don't fuck it up. Okay. We'll, we'll figure this out. We'll figure this out. But so Jim, Jim is going to walk through the show, uh, with me and I'm going to guide him through this, but we have this thing called shout outs, Jim, and we have little shout outs, little things, little tidbits that have piqued our interest, but don't quite qualify as a, as serious news. So my, my first shout out, uh, goes to Riz. Jim Stroud (04:59.228) No promises. Joel Cheesman (05:18.224) Riz, which I mentioned on the show. So dad joke alert. So my kids, I have two teenagers and a six year old, and we have them fill out their Christmas list every year. And this year I thought I'd make a good, a dad joke. There's no good dad jokes. Well, I made a dad joke and I said, hey kids, did you add Riz to your Christmas list? Because I hear all the kids are looking for Riz. Okay. And they didn't like, they booed me, I guess. So anyway. Jim Stroud (05:46.231) hahahaha Joel Cheesman (05:47.464) It's Oxford's word of the year. It's short for charisma. So if you have Riz, you have charisma. In an effort to make this shout out relevant to recruiting, I said, wouldn't it be fun if I went out to your favorite search engines for jobs and looked for Riz to see if there are any job postings with the word Riz in it? Unfortunately, there are no jobs with the word Riz in it. So there's an opportunity for you employers out there Jim Stroud (05:50.886) Mm. Joel Cheesman (06:16.52) People are searching Riz. They're gonna find your job if you just add the keyword Riz into it. However, LinkedIn, LinkedIn did not let me down, Jim. LinkedIn, some creative profiles. Let me say that. So a few profile titles that I found, one said Riz King. He's an up and comer for sure. Director of Riz was one that I saw. The master of Skimity Riz. Jim Stroud (06:37.483) Hmm. Joel Cheesman (06:45.648) Not sure what his core competency was. And my, my favorite, uh, profile on LinkedIn with the word Riz was certified Riz master at your mom's house. So that was, that was, that was, that was certainly, that was my favorite one. So anyway, uh, it beat out prompt. Situation ship, which I'm not quite sure what that is. And Swifty, which with. Jim Stroud (06:48.641) Skippy the Riz. Jim Stroud (06:57.71) hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah Jim Stroud (07:08.419) Mmm. Joel Cheesman (07:13.896) the year Taylor Swift has had. She was just named Time Magazine's person of the year. So Swiftie got beat out by Riz, but my shout out goes out to Riz. What you got? Jim Stroud (07:19.082) Yeah. Jim Stroud (07:24.734) Wow, wow. My shout out goes to Aitana. I think I'm pronouncing it right. She is the first digital influencer who is of Spanish descent, if that's the right way to say it these days. And, now she has pink hair and she has a million followers on Instagram. And not only that, she's had deals with Dolce & Gabbana. She has deals with Couture and some other big names. And the person behind it, the company behind it, they were having issues with the female influencers that they were trying to employ, being late, not taking the job seriously enough, whatever. So they say, you know what? Forget all that. Joel Cheesman (08:12.41) Uh huh. Jim Stroud (08:17.226) Let's just get a digital influencer that we can control, who will always be on time, work 24-7, and it worked. So, Aytana is really just one of several digital influencers out there, believe it or not. So I see this as a shot across the bow to OnlyFans, for sure. Shot across the bow to adult entertainers, because these digital... Joel Cheesman (08:20.293) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (08:36.274) Yeah. Jim Stroud (08:45.558) people are only going to get more and more realistic. So after a while, a lot of people will have to get a real job, so to speak. This is, yeah. Joel Cheesman (08:57.188) No doubt. And I've called for this on the show for a while. And it's gonna take time. But look, dudes don't know the, either they don't know the difference or they don't give a shit. And we've covered this on the show. Jim Stroud (09:09.143) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (09:11.432) women and not just pictures, but video and the conversation is getting better. And like, there's going to be a day where only fans is out of business because you can go to whatever it becomes unless only fans becomes this where you pay, you know, 9.99 a month to have as many girls do whatever the hell you want with whomever they want all the time, uh, at your fingertips. And when VR becomes a thing, And the audio is like a human. I mean, uh, yeah, this is going to a place where. Making millions on only fans showing your ass is, is it's on the clock because AI is going to take this stuff over. We can talk about the, uh, what this means for the human race and dating and the demise of like civilization, but we'll, we'll save that for the next time you're on, uh, five years from now, we're probably going to be an Armageddon, uh, by, by then anyway, and, and speaking of. Jim Stroud (09:38.807) Yeah. Jim Stroud (09:55.79) Heh heh. Jim Stroud (10:05.354) Yeah, truly. Joel Cheesman (10:07.016) of nakedness in real life. My next shout out goes to the Minneapolis stripper awards. Yes, you probably know that there were stripper awards, let alone that there are local stripper awards. So around 100 strippers gathered for the Minneapolis stripper awards this week. The event aimed to celebrate strippers while also highlighting the need to unionize. See, I brought it back to employment, which is what we do on the show. The awards had nine categories. including the prestigious Miss New Boobies Award. This is for dancers who have been performing for less than a year. The Meg V. Stallion Award for performers working toward a degree, which we've all met those strippers in school working on their nursing degree, I'm sure. And the most sought after award of the night was the HBIC Award. If you don't know it, go Google HBIC, because again, I don't want to get canceled on this week's show without Chad here. So that is my next shout out. The Minneapolis stripper awards. Jim Stroud (11:15.03) I'm going to have to do some research to verify your claims. So I'll look that up to Atlanta. Oh, that's the stripper capital. Yeah, Atlanta. I'm sure there is. There's no shortage of. Joel Cheesman (11:18.448) You're in Atlanta, right? Are you in Atlanta? There's gotta be a Strip Awards in Atlanta. That might be the national, either there or Tampa or Houston or Vegas maybe, or the Strip Awards. Yeah. Jim Stroud (11:31.582) Yeah, yeah, there's no shortage of those clubs that I've heard of. I don't frequent them. I've just heard of several of them within proximity of my home. Research is what it is. Yes, yes, yes. I do actually, I'm going to give a shout out to Sam Altman. He's been through the fire and now he's out with all the drama, you know, that heard about him leaving OpenAI, going to Microsoft and OpenAI said, Hey, we sorry, come back. Joel Cheesman (11:37.917) Of course not. Research, research. You got another shout out? Jim Stroud (12:01.398) You know, and now he's facing a competition from Google that released a new AI, Gemini, I believe it is. And yeah, word on the street is that the Gemini large language model is better than chat GPT, who knows who cares, maybe it's spin, but I like it because it's going to produce, bring it back to jobs, new jobs, new careers, because when you have this kind of cutthroat competition, these companies that want to... Joel Cheesman (12:24.064) Mm-hmm. Jim Stroud (12:29.29) are going to want to hire the best, which is going to just raise the game up for everyone. So it's good to have a growth industry. Joel Cheesman (12:34.885) Yeah. Like it. Well, better than chat GPT, but is it better than free stuff? Jim, uh, probably not. So I want to talk to our audience about free stuff from Chad and cheese. That's right. If you love free t-shirts and free booze, you're at the right podcast. We got t-shirts from our friends at, uh, at job get, we've got bourbon, a selection from Chad one for me from text kernel. Jim Stroud (12:39.662) Yep. Jim Stroud (12:45.307) Mm. Joel Cheesman (13:03.56) We got free beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. And if it's your birthday in any particular month, we have Rum with Plum. That's right, if it's your birthday month, you could win a great bottle of rum from our friends at Plum. Joel Cheesman (13:25.284) That's right. And that brings us to this week's birthdays. That's right. Another trip around the sun for our fans, Matt Miller, Kim Stewart, Lars Kuhs, Chase Johnson, Patrick Hodgdon, Lana Schuman, Craig Anderson, Bob Scruggs, Matt Stubbsy Stubbs, Jeff King, Brandi Dawson, Tanya Truelove, Anoop Gupta, CEO of Seeked Out, and apparently some chick. named Julie and so wash celebrate a birthday this week. So happy birthday to them. By the way, Chad is in London this week. He's finishing up a stint with TA tech, which will end our travels for this year. But if you want to find out where we're going to be the usual suspects, Jim Stroud (13:55.947) Who? Joel Cheesman (14:21.212) Go to ChadCheese.com, click the events link to keep track of where Chad and I are going. And also while I'm doing a little housekeeping here, every month we do a show called the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Data. We've partnered with Toby Dayton at LinkUp to go over the jobs report every month. We look into his data, which is used by some of the best Wall Street firms out there. We dig into what's going on from a molecular level. And what's we bring it down to the Chad and cheese audience. We take away the, the wall street speak and bring it down to main street. Uh, if you haven't checked that out, it's only on YouTube. Uh, so check out youtube.com, uh, at Chad cheese. We do that because we have the best charts and graphs in the business, which we can't really relay over audio, but make sure that you check that out. Uh, a new one is coming out this week as a new report is being released. Joel Cheesman (15:24.164) Which brings us to our fantasy football leaderboard of the week. Do you play fantasy, Jim? Jim Stroud (15:32.046) Nah, not football. Different fantasy leagues. Ask me after the show. Joel Cheesman (15:36.968) Board games? I don't know, I don't want to get into it. Okay, what kind of sick games, kind of sick fantasy games are you playing? Okay, so we play fantasy football, sponsored by our friends at Factory Fix. The season's almost over. The top four get to the playoffs. This is really the final week of the regular season. Here is your top 12 leaderboard. And number one, she's been there almost the whole season. Michelle Sargent-Peppers is right there, followed by Marcy Mall-Rat. Uh, Dina Pero for pyros at number three, jagged little Jill Patterson at number four, uh, Chad bought so wash, uh, no one wants to have a conversation with that Chad bought by the way, uh, FYI. Uh, number six, Joe bag of Dixon is, uh, is in that spot. Number seven, Brent, Brent Losey, uh, number seven, uh, number, number eight Joel. It's all good achievement. That's me. Jim Stroud (16:22.911) I'm sorry. Joel Cheesman (16:32.776) Number nine, cool. Mo Dean Osner number 10 Jasper, uh, the last European to make it into the league, uh, span Jart, cause he frankly just sucked after whining about why won't you let a European play fantasy football? Number 11, Dennis breakfast, lunch and Tupper number 12, the Caboose Kristen champagne air Bona. And that is your fantasy football leaderboard. Well, Jim, when I have a co-host on, I like to talk, just dig a little bit about what you're doing. You've been around for a long time, have some great insight. Let's talk about sourcing. And I'm gonna give my historical perspective on sourcing, and then I'm gonna hand it to you to give us the current state of sourcing and the future of sourcing. So sourcing for me goes back really to like shally business, like foldable business card with Boolean strings. Jim Stroud (17:12.738) Yes. Joel Cheesman (17:29.404) And search engines, no one knew about and don't exist anymore, uh, that you could use to find people that evolved into companies, hiring, solved hire tool that had all the people data and then all the bullion was built in. Like, what do you need? Of course, LinkedIn is growing this whole, this whole time. Uh, LinkedIn sues everybody, uh, throws out cease and desist. You can't take our data. Um, and basically effectively puts a lot of people out of business. Um, there's a big pivot in the industry, uh, profiles become commoditized. You have, uh, you know, for nine 99, you can access a hundred million profiles. That brings the price down for everybody. Higher tool becomes higher, easy, more of a marketing platform. Uh, hiring saw goes out of business. Uh, seek out is I think kind of finding its way around. They went through around layoffs recently. So from my perspective, the sourcing profession. is in a real state of flux right now. So I'm gonna pass it to you to kind of give us the state of sourcing, your role at SourceCon, what the show has become, the future of the conference, and maybe the future of the profession. Jim Stroud (18:42.082) Sure, sure. I think you summed up sourcing in a very, very accurate way. We are in a state of flux. Yeah. Sourcing is in a state of flux. I think a lot of people are concerned. I hear it when I'm at the conference. I talk to people virtually and in person. And if they're in the recruiting Joel Cheesman (18:50.6) This is why I have an award-winning podcast, Jim, for six years running. Yeah. Because I'm old. That's why. Jim Stroud (19:12.262) industry, there is a lot of concern. People are looking at the AI technology out there and they're thinking, wow, AI is here, so my days are numbered. And I say, well, not necessarily. So I just think that when new technology is introduced, some jobs will be displaced, but then new ones will replace them. Just as Netflix took out Blockbuster back in the day, for you young folks, there used to be a time when you got DVDs in the mail and it wasn't streamed. But now with Netflix, you have the streaming technology. And so that brought about a bunch of new jobs, content creation, digital marketing, data analysis, software development, cybersecurity stuff, just name a few. So there will be new jobs that I think sourcing will morph into or will also incorporate. And I'll make a prediction on three different jobs, if I may. of the future, which you'll probably start to begin to see next year. One job that I predict that's going to appear in 2024 or shortly thereafter is what I'm calling the algorithmic recruiting analyst. Joel Cheesman (20:01.908) Sure. Jim Stroud (20:16.906) And that's somebody who analyzes the performance and effectiveness of AI algorithms using HR tech tools. Someone who optimizes algorithms for better outcomes, maybe tweaking the dials a little bit for more diversity or provide more insight. Sort of like, it's sort of an old school comparison. Tweaking the Boolean strings to make sure that the AI is getting the right candidates or as many candidates as possible. Another prediction I've seen in the very near future is the ethical AI compliance officer. All right. And that's somebody who makes sure that AI tools are in compliance with local, state, and federal regulations. You know, President Biden recently issued an executive order on AI to promote, as a quote, safe, secure, and trustworthy development of the use of artificial intelligence. And when I heard that... Joel Cheesman (20:48.815) Okay. Joel Cheesman (21:00.052) Mm-hmm. Jim Stroud (21:10.598) that just tells me that new regulations are on the horizon. And you already have a few out there, like New York City Local Law 144 and others, but there's gonna be a whole bunch. And when you're not in compliance of all these regulations, it's gonna cost you money. So I think it's gonna be a job where someone's whole job is to make sure that you protect the company from having to pay fines. And then third, which I know for sure I will likely see next year. is something I'm calling the AI recruitment trainer. That's somebody who comes in and trains sourcing teams on how to use AI tools and platforms. There are so many tools out there. And this person is going to come in and say, hey, you know what? Let's connect ChatGPT to Zapier and look at all the things you can do. Look how much time it's going to save you. And this is by doing these things that I'm going to train you on, your team is going to be more efficient. You'll be able to do more with less, that kind of thing. So somebody like Eric Jacob, if you're listening Eric shout out to you. Eric Jacob or Ronnie Bratcher or somebody like that, or any number of people from what are called the source kind OGs could do a really good job with this. So those are my three predictions there. Joel Cheesman (22:18.789) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (22:25.134) So let's get to SourceCon real quick. If memory serves me, and again I'm old, there is no SourceCon without you. Were you one of the original? Am I off base on that? Jim Stroud (22:28.81) Yeah, yeah. Jim Stroud (22:37.124) You flatter me, sir. You flatter me. Well, back in the day, back in the day, it was Leslie O'Connor, Rob McIntosh, Earl Mann and myself. We were the four horsemen, so to speak, behind it. I didn't put the money up, so I almost feel kind of sketchy saying that I'm a wonderful horseman, but I was. Joel Cheesman (22:46.074) Yeah? Yeah. Jim Stroud (22:58.998) the emcee for SourceCon and promoted it for the first few years. So a lot of people still remember me from back then to now because I really got into video promotions, producing videos to promote SourceCon back then. And I've been back several times over the years, keynoting at the event. And as Luck or Providence, whatever you want to call it, has have it, I am now the editor of SourceCon. Joel Cheesman (23:00.068) Yeah, yeah. Joel Cheesman (23:05.437) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (23:23.229) Yeah. Jim Stroud (23:23.466) which means that I helped to plan the event. I helped to create the content on the event. And I also promote and manage the online community of really, really talented people who have a love for sourcing. I'm very, very blessed. Shout out to the SourceCon community. Shout out to the good folks over at ERE. One love. Joel Cheesman (23:46.428) You know, uh, real quickly, the, the conference universe fascinates me and I've been around for a while again, uh, back to me being old, but you know, ERE used to be the go-to conference for everybody. SourceCon was like the freak show, you know, the, the people. I mean, I say that, I say that it's, it was like, Jim Stroud (24:04.331) Hahaha Jim Stroud (24:08.382) Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sort of like Comic-Con. Joel Cheesman (24:10.524) It was like the S it was like the SEOs back in marketing, right? Like all the SEOs got together and like, and they were the freaks, right? But they, it was like, they knew something other people didn't. And source con always felt like that to me. They, they had, they spoke each other's language. They saw things that other people didn't see. Um, and it was always fun. Pandemic hits. You know, there's a new, a new crop of conferences, the unleashes, the rec fasts, um, what's the state of the conference? Jim Stroud (24:14.485) Yeah. Jim Stroud (24:20.894) Exactly. I think what? Jim Stroud (24:27.392) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (24:40.04) What, how, how were the vendors changing? Like you talked about your predictions. The vendors used to be pretty straightforward, like pro search profiles and like, uh, or contract people to do searches. How are the vendors different and how is, how is the conference different? And where do you hope to take it with a whole new crop of competition out there to, to get people's mind share? Jim Stroud (25:00.31) Sure. Well, with the sponsors, we just announced the first ever AI product showcase. So what we're going to do is we're going to have several vendors, five minutes, to showcase what they do and give the audience five minutes to ask them questions. There are so many tools out there, and we're going to allow a select few to present to the community. Shout out to Danielle at ere.net if someone's interested in that. But we're going to have them just sort of showcase because a lot of the tools out now, everything is powered by artificial intelligence in some matter. So there's that. In terms of the look and feel of SourceCon, originally back in the day, it would have been a fair comparison to say SourceCon was to recruiting conferences as DefCon. Joel Cheesman (25:42.482) Yeah. Jim Stroud (25:56.258) what's the security industry or Comic-Con. So if you can combine Comic-Con, that's the conference for people in comics and Marvel movies, things like that. If you combine Comic-Con with DefCon and add in recruiting and sourcing, you would have SourceCon. Over time, it felt like it was sort of straying away, sort of lost its sort of mojo in that sense, but I'm trying to bring sexy back, so to speak. So... Joel Cheesman (26:06.14) Uh huh. Joel Cheesman (26:20.633) Yeah. Jim Stroud (26:27.103) These sound effects. So bringing it back to that old school source con vibe where you have the, to your point, the weird people or the people who are just really passionate about sourcing, really passionate about AI and recruiting and sourcing and showing them the latest tools and tricks all in one place. It is the place to be for that. Joel Cheesman (26:34.737) Okay. Joel Cheesman (26:46.64) Okay. Well, with AI, I know a lot of people have questions. They have a lot of ideas or how AI can work and making me a better sorcerer. So I'm kind of with you. I think there'll be some new and inventive ways that we, I can't even see that vendors and people will come up with, uh, to take sourcing to a whole different place. Uh, give us, give us the, where the win, uh, and any discounts, uh, that you might have for the, the Chad and cheese listeners. Jim Stroud (27:06.216) Mm-hmm. Jim Stroud (27:14.57) Sure, you can get all the information at sourcecon.com. That's S-O-U-R-C-E-C-O-N.com. And you can get 10% off by using the discount code sourcecon10. And you can also get 100% off if you contribute four articles to the SourceCon blog. Those articles will be peer reviewed by a lot of the SourceCon OGs. So if you want 100% off, write a very, very good article for very, very good articles and submit them. And once they're peer reviewed, you'll get free tickets. Joel Cheesman (27:50.736) All right. Jim Stroud (27:54.52) Hehe. Joel Cheesman (27:55.292) Well, thanks, Jim. Where can they learn more about SourceCon? Jim Stroud (27:59.018) Yeah, go to SourceCon.com. S-O-U-R-C-E-C-O-N.com. Joel Cheesman (28:04.368) Easy enough. Easy enough. Joel Cheesman (28:10.616) Now to the news in no particular order. Indeed, my God, we never talk about indeed on the show, Jim. Indeed is discontinuing pay per application, or what the kids are calling PPA pricing, set to end in less than two weeks. Wow, that was a quick decision. After replacing pay per click for most employers, Jim Stroud (28:20.049) Never. Joel Cheesman (28:34.82) Initially favored by smaller employers, PPA faced criticism for complexity and unexpected chargers despite changes. Indeed cited it as an unsuccessful experiment focusing now on pay for performance models, Jim, I know you don't have a lot to say about this particular. Uh, item, but do you have any, any thoughts on indeed what the community thinks about indeed? And maybe about this, this confusion with pricing. Jim Stroud (29:05.158) I think that indeed could learn something from McDonald's. McDonald's has been around for a while, but they have the same basic menu. Even though people still, it amazes me people walk into McDonald's and they sit there and look at the menu. Like it hadn't changed in 20 years. Basically unless they bring back the McRib or something. It's something about keeping your business process as simple, keeping it simple for the customers. Joel Cheesman (29:22.057) Uh huh. Jim Stroud (29:32.426) It's cool to introduce something new every now and then, but there's something to be said about consistency. You know, they'll make it difficult. The easier you make it for someone to give you money, the easier it is for you to get their money. So that's what I say about that. Joel Cheesman (29:45.756) Yeah. And pay-per-click 20 years on is kind of a universal thing. People understand you click on my ad and I pay you money for the traffic. Every time you try to throw in complexity, you're going to get a lot of money. Joel Cheesman (30:05.784) So we talked about this when they launched it. And the fact is Google can't make this work. Google back in the mid 2000s had like, you know, pay per purchase. So someone clicks on an ad and if they buy your pair of shoes, then you only pay us for people buying the shoes or you pay us a percentage of what people spent. You can imagine the level of fraud, deception that people tried to get. Jim Stroud (30:06.134) Hehehehe Jim Stroud (30:10.09) Hmm. Jim Stroud (30:29.186) Right. Joel Cheesman (30:35.536) like less, like not pay Google or people that were using AdSense. Forget it. So if Google can't figure out a pay per acquisition model, uh, then it should tell you something that you can't either, uh, indeed is going through a real period of hubris right now. Uh, they're going through a period of, of fear, frankly, uh, with, with Google for jobs with LinkedIn growing. with programmatic, uh, appcast and others breathing down their neck. Um, indeed is making some really dumb decisions. And I think this was one of them to think that they could just do this, uh, really reeks of hubris. I understand the idea of it because it's hard to have a conversation as an indeed salesperson and say, look, I know you're paying, uh, appcast 12 cents a click and you're paying us 84 cents a click, but we're, we're better. Right? Like that's a hard conversation to have. Like, why should I pay you double for the click that I'm giving someone else when I'm still getting the results that I need? So they, they wanted to create confusion of like, well, no, it's not per click. It's per applicant or it's per interested, interested candidate or whatever, whatever model. So they want to sort of dilute the waters and confuse people. Well, it looks like they went too far. Uh, and our, our backtracking on, on what they they've had to do. Um, Jim Stroud (31:46.565) Hmm Jim Stroud (32:01.458) It could be... Joel Cheesman (32:01.608) The other thing is there's a company, a private equity firm called value act that just gave a bunch of money to recruit holdings, which is indeed parent company. Well, you know that when private equity comes in the door, they take a magnet, you know, magnifying glass to everything and they say, okay, what's, what's frivolous, what isn't working, what is working, how do we cut costs? Um, clearly there was a strategy meeting where someone said, why are we doing this? We're, we're losing customers. They don't understand it. So maybe there was at least some. Jim Stroud (32:06.373) Hmm. Jim Stroud (32:11.171) Hmm Joel Cheesman (32:31.512) Uh, some focus or refocus with, uh, with the private equity coming in, uh, that made them, uh, make this move. I don't think it's the end of bad moves for indeed. I think they're going to continue because the world isn't going to change. Google is still going to march on LinkedIn is still going to march on programmatic is still only going to get bigger. Appcast is buying agencies and so IPOs are going to come down the pike. It's only going to get tougher for indeed. So, uh, I don't, I'm not sure what they're going to do, but I think Dumber moves are going to come in by them. Maybe new products, new brands, new extensions, maybe consulting, maybe more recruiting and staffing. Uh, but the, the paper click life only has so much to live at this point. And the PPA didn't work. And, uh, I think the PPC lifespan is limited at this point. Jim Stroud (33:19.698) I think when you're so big, to your point about the hubris, you get so big you figure you can do whatever you want. But I do think that the way things are, what indeed needs to be looking at in the corner of their eye, is companies merging and being acquired. I heard about there's some talk about Paramount Plus doing some kind of deal with Apple Plus. Joel Cheesman (33:44.749) With Apple? Mm-hmm. Jim Stroud (33:46.11) Yeah, because they're both hurting on the streaming wars and their library is really lacking compared to Amazon and Netflix. So if a lot of companies, because of these interesting times, start teaming up and merging and they start coming together like Voltron and robot or something, it might be big enough at some point to take on indeed. I think the real problem is no major competitor. Or not. Joel Cheesman (33:51.889) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (34:05.108) Mm-hmm. Jim Stroud (34:15.19) big enough to really cause them to shift what they're doing. It needs more competition, is what I'm saying. Joel Cheesman (34:20.117) Yeah. Well, back to sourcing, right? Like at one point profiles became commodities, like they're out there, you know, like LinkedIn has built a walled garden around their stuff and they've done a good job of protecting that, but there's no protection for job postings. Companies don't give a shit if you scrape their cut, their ATS and grab their job and throw it out there. Now they may care, but they're not doing anything about it. So as jobs get to become commodities, it's like, it's a race to the bottom. Jim Stroud (34:25.003) Yeah. Jim Stroud (34:41.792) All right. Joel Cheesman (34:46.256) of pricing and to me the programmatic, you know, uh, wave that's, that's happened is, is a mirror image of what's going on with any commodity out there as a race to the bottom. So for me, um, indeed has, has nowhere to go except like milk this thing for as long as they can, unless they do come up with some miraculous, uh, you know, ninth fourth, fourth quarter comeback. I think they're going to share a faith that Monster shared. I mean, how many times do we talk about Monster hubris? You know, 15 years ago, you know, 10 years ago. Jim Stroud (35:20.704) Yeah. I never would have thought Monster would be gone. I always thought Monster would reign supreme forever from back in the day, you know? But it happens. Joel Cheesman (35:32.848) I mean, like we're going to talk about job openings, uh, in our next story, job boards should be crushing it, crushing it like Zipper, crude or indeed like every job site should be crushing it. Unfortunately they're not. Um, and it's that race to the bottom, uh, for job advertising, but enough about indeed, we'll get back to them in a, in a second. Let's, let's talk really quickly about job openings. So in October, us job openings fell to 8.7 million. Jim Stroud (35:39.912) you would think. Joel Cheesman (36:02.844) the lowest since March of 2021, indicating a slower hiring pace amidst higher interest rates. Despite declines, job availability remains historically high. Hiring slowed from previous years, yet added 239,000 jobs monthly in 2023, reflecting a resilient job market amid rising borrowing costs and easing inflation. To put this in context, job openings reached a record of more than 12 million in March of 2022. The last time job openings hovered around 9 million like it is now was in the spring of 2021. Jim, what do you make of the drop and how should recruiters be looking at the news? Jim Stroud (36:48.766) Every time I hear a news report these days about job market, jobs down, but it's not really that bad because you have this over here, my thinking is that my inner Senate comes out and I'm thinking, okay, it's a presidential election year, right? Election season, right? So there's going to be spin all over the place. I think that we are in a recession, whether it's an official recession per se. Joel Cheesman (37:05.481) Mm-hmm. Jim Stroud (37:17.898) When I go to the grocery store, I think recession. I see gas prices happening, thinking recession. I could be wrong, but it just feels like we're in one. So any report that I see, I take off a grain of salt because I said, you know, people in power want things to look a certain way. Now, after the election is over, then we may see a bit more reality of how things are. But there's that. But... That and also how I get a lot of requests from other recruiters and people in the business, hey, do you know who's hiring, that kind of thing. It took a minute for me to land the gig that I have now, so I know that although jobs may be plentiful, as they say in the media, I know it's not quite the story for everyone. That being said, I would like to throw out a couple tips for recruiters who are looking for work, if I may. So this is something that recruiters and sourcers, pretty much anyone can do. Go over to Google News or any news site for that matter and do a search on series B in quotes and funding, right? Or series C in quotes and funding. When companies are raising money and then they're in their series B or series C round. that means that they're in a position to expand their operations. Usually when you get the series B and C, they are going to do more hiring. They're going to buy more products so they can sell more stuff. So those are companies that are poised to expand. Those are companies you want to pursue because they got money and they're growing. So, um, if you do a search, I did a search just a while ago and I saw several, uh, companies there. Now in Google, you can refine your search by recent or past week or past month, whatever. Do a search for recent week and you got fresh meat, so to speak, of companies that may not even have a job for a recruiter posted because it's so new, but now is the time to network and sort of get your way in that way. Also what you may want to do if you're currently working and you're concerned about how long you're going to continue working there. Jim Stroud (39:35.334) I would say diversify your skill set as much as possible. Maybe ask somebody how you can help with workforce planning or employer branding, that kind of thing. And then if you are in management, I would say strongly, this is the time to really hire, actually, believe it or not. Joel Cheesman (39:45.552) Mm-hmm. Jim Stroud (39:57.578) Because when you have a recession or at least it feels like recession to a lot of people, a lot of people are going to be nervous. So a lot of the A players that normally wouldn't even look your way, they may be open to an email to a conversation because they're thinking, okay, I'm working now, but things are kind of iffy. Yeah, maybe I will entertain an offer or at least talk to someone about that. And then if they happen to be laid off, then you may be able to get them at a lower salary. Joel Cheesman (40:01.501) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (40:20.132) Yeah, yeah. Jim Stroud (40:26.774) that you can afford versus you probably wouldn't be able to afford them if the economy was doing great. And then, of course, when recession is over, a lot of your A talent, they might be recruited away to other places for higher salaries. But at that time, your company might be in a better position because of all the contributions of the A players that got you to that point. So that's my rant on that. Your soundbites. Joel Cheesman (40:34.098) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (40:48.028) Got it. So my perspective is what's happening is exactly what the Fed wants to happen. Look, we flooded the house with money during COVID, what, $6 trillion, whatever it is. So we had a big party and we're coming down from that. So inflation, we gotta get that under control. At least inflation has stopped growing. Jim Stroud (40:58.06) Mm. Jim Stroud (41:08.15) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (41:14.668) Uh, the market needs to cool down. Jobs need to come down. Like more houses need to like everything needs to slow the hell down or we're going to overheat. We talked about, uh, this on the chat and cheese podcast does, uh, does data with Toby Dayton, what's happening is what the, what the feds want to have happen. Um, so from my perspective, 12 million jobs is ludicrous. I mean, that was, that was nuts. It was like three opens, three openings for every human being that can work. Like that is not sustainable. I don't know how many were actual real jobs. I think there was a lot of fraud in the system that we may never know about. Yeah, things are getting under control. I think it's normalizing. This doesn't scare me at all. You can throw in the word Goldilocks. It's like not too hot, not too cold. It's kind of just right. I'm glad that the labor market is holding up. We're hearing Jamie Dimon and some other big banks talk about recession. I think you're right in that we've seen a rolling recession. Jim Stroud (41:47.522) There you go. Embrace your inner cynic. Jim Stroud (41:57.567) Mm. Jim Stroud (42:13.212) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (42:13.264) I think if you're in tech a year ago, it was a recession. Uh, if you're an energy now, it's a risk. So like it's hit different, uh, industries at different times. It hasn't kind of hit all of us at the same time. Uh, but yeah, you're right. What's the old adage? Uh, if you're, if your neighbor's out of work, it's a recession. If you're out of work, it's a depression. Uh, so depending on where you are, uh, it could mean a totally different thing. Well, let's keep this thing going. Uh, when we get back from the, uh, the break, we'll talk more about. Indeed. Jim Stroud (42:33.486) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (42:45.232) Well, people probably know text kernel, uh, as the best resume parsing solution out there. Uh, they bought sovereign a long time, uh, chat and cheese sponsor a few years ago. And they're still the best parser, but they're branching out. They're into matching semantic search, sourcing APIs, you name it. And they're diving into AI. Like their hair is on fire, leveraging LLMs for recruitment, whether you're a staffing agency, corporate HR, staffing vendor, or management consultancy. You gotta be using text kernel. Okay. Customers like Ronstadt, Manpower and Kelly are already using text kernel and they have been for a while. Uh, and you can be in really good company, by the way, uh, they acquired a company called Jabati a few months back to take things to a whole new level when it comes to conversational AI and enhancements and technology guys, you owe it to yourself. To check out text kernel. If you care at all. about evolving your TA strategy. Learn more today by going to textkernel.com. That's T-E-X-T-K-E-R-N-E-L.com. Joel Cheesman (43:57.564) All right, Jim, it's an indeed double rainbow on this week's episode. So indeed following the pandemic is discontinuing their monthly and I'm using air quotes, you days. That's why oh you days. These are mental health days for employees globally stating reduced vacation bookings. The move aligns with a trend of companies reevaluating pandemic introduced perks due to budget constraints. Jim Stroud (43:59.139) Mm. Hehehehehehe Jim Stroud (44:12.494) Mmm. Joel Cheesman (44:27.74) Despite this, Indeed maintains unlimited paid time off and remote work options, also extending parental leave to 26 weeks. Jim, it's a double rainbow for Indeed, featuring our favorite company, or at least one of them. Again, what are your thoughts on Indeed trashing you days? Jim Stroud (44:48.682) I understand the business case for dropping that benefit, but my concern or my hope is that it doesn't spill over into other mental health benefits. And I said it because there was a survey that was published this week, actually, I think it was this week, by the American Psychological Association. And they reported that over 56% of the psychologists they surveyed had no openings for new patients. 56%. And among those who keep waitlists, the average wait times were three months or longer. And nearly 40% of those said their waitlists had grown in the past year. So there is clearly a need for mental health assistance. That mental health benefits are needed across the board. So I sort of shudder when I hear a company saying they're not going to offer as many mental health benefits. So I just again, I understand their business case for dropping it But I hope it doesn't spill over to other built-in health businesses putting them benefits putting those in danger because they are needed Joel Cheesman (45:57.956) Yeah. So I'm going to give them an applause on the 26 week parental leave. Uh, most companies aren't doing, uh, something. So yeah, 26 weeks for parental leave. Uh, they're extending, extending that, uh, now everyone in Europe and Canada is like, that's still not long enough, but at least in America, we're, we're making some progress on that end. Um, I always have a problem. If. Jim Stroud (46:08.782) 26 weeks? Wow, that's commendable. Joel Cheesman (46:25.636) If you are a market leader in solutions for HR, you should be a model of what treating employees correctly should look like, because all of your customers are in this industry. And if we can't get employee care right, why should we expect our customers that are doing this to get it right? So from that perspective, Jim Stroud (46:40.427) Mm. Joel Cheesman (46:53.584) I think Indeed is falling down a little bit on what they could have been this like beacon of this is how you treat employees. Here's how we do it and you can do it the same way. To be cutting something like this, I think just is a little bit short-sighted and leaving I think what is an obligation to be a model of what it is to treat employees well. They've done a pretty good PR job of saying like, well, we've... put back the things that we lost during the pandemic. So we're taking away some of the stuff that we gave during the pandemic. That's a really nice slick PR move to kind of cover your asses. Companies that have unlimited time off, generally have no time off. I've worked at companies where there's no two week period or you got to take it or you lose it. It's just kind of like, hey, you're an adult, take whatever time off you want. And what happens is nobody takes time off because they feel like, well, I'm letting the team down or I'm slacking. I'm certainly going to take more than the next person over. So everyone just ends up working like slaves and no one takes time off. What I've learned is you have to have a period and say, You got to take the time off or you lose it. And then everybody takes their vacation time. So I, I don't, I don't trust companies are like, we have unlimited time off because you, you basically have no time off when you have that, uh, that is your thing. The other thing again, back to value act, their, their private equity firm. Again, there was a meeting and they said, how do we cut shit out? How do we get people more, uh, more productive? How do we get, how do we kick the people in the ass and get them back to work? And this was, I'm sure one of those things that they took out and was easy. If I'm an Indeed employee, I'm looking for more cost cutting efforts coming down the pike from value acts. Uh, I don't want to say layoffs, but would I be surprised if some layoffs come, come down the pike? No, I would not. So for me, like, this is maybe the tip of the iceberg for Indeed's cost cutting. It starts with you days. And it's pretty soon. There are no happy days whatsoever. If you know what I'm saying, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Jim Stroud (49:04.226) Did they have this link, does Indeed have RTO policy, return to office policy? Joel Cheesman (49:04.41) Okay, sorry. Joel Cheesman (49:10.972) They are pretty, well, they are pretty, I'm sure they do, I don't know it offhand, but they are pretty flexible with the time away from the office. Although they've spent a lot of money on real estate, particularly in Austin, to get people into an office. So I think they're on a hybrid model at the moment. Jim Stroud (49:24.608) Yeah. Jim Stroud (49:30.678) Would I hear a big company? Jim Stroud (49:37.031) I feel like when companies are, oh yeah, go ahead. Oh, oh yeah, I'll point, yeah. I was gonna say that I feel that when a large company like that announces return to office, in the back of my mind, the cynical side of my brain says, tell me you're laying off without saying you're laying off. Get people to quit so you don't have to pay unemployment insurance or severance packages. Joel Cheesman (49:37.392) You had a point there before I cut you off. Go ahead. Okay. Well, yeah. Joel Cheesman (49:56.487) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (50:00.556) Yep. Jim Stroud (50:02.794) It's a win-win from a competition perspective. So. Joel Cheesman (50:05.36) Yep. And Chad and I talk all the time about boiling the frog. It just, it starts slowly and like before you know it, you're back to work five days a week. Your benefits are the way they used like everything is back to the way it was before the world changed. Jim Stroud (50:14.571) Yep. Jim Stroud (50:19.674) Have you heard of this thing called the wall of worry? You heard a term I just came across yesterday. So there's a low demand for office space these days. And it's been called a one trillion wall of worry. People in the office space leasing thing, because that's how much think they're going to be losing by end of 2024. A trillion dollars. Joel Cheesman (50:31.045) Yeah. Jim Stroud (50:46.026) and they're concerned about it and all the banks that they're in debt to are concerned about it is interesting. So I think RTO is going to continue for a lot of reasons, not just to lay people off. But yeah. Joel Cheesman (50:49.596) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (50:59.undefined) Who do you think owns those commercial buildings, Jim? The rich people do. Who owns the companies? The rich people. The rich people want you back in the offices that they own. I mean, it just makes sense. They're just gonna make it as slow and steady as they can. I think cities like New York, Chicago, bigger cities, you're just gonna go back to work. I think that stuff is gonna be good. Where I worry about the Clevelands, the Detroits, the smaller, do those downtowns ever come back? Jim Stroud (51:05.934) Yeah. Hmm Joel Cheesman (51:28.858) Um, we'll see. Jim Stroud (51:30.626) Well, there's a movement now going on, I think it's in New York and parts of Chicago, they're trying to kick it off where they want to convert the office buildings into residential. Some of those office buildings could be turned into residential, but the problem with that is that some people don't want to go back to the big city anymore because there's too much drama for some folks, depending on what city. Joel Cheesman (51:43.272) Yeah. Jim Stroud (51:54.803) If you know, you know and sort of thinking like I want to say I hear the birds because they get a little crazy there In the city, so I don't know if it's gonna work Joel Cheesman (51:59.952) Yeah. Plus a lot of those buildings aren't zoned for plumbing or, you know, the things that we think of in apartments. Uh, so you have to change the laws and the zoning regulation. So it's, it's a big pain in the ass for sure. It's, it's not a flip the switch and, and have a high luxury apartments, you know, in downtown New York, it just doesn't quite work like that. Jim Stroud (52:05.334) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (52:21.968) All right, let's get from one job site to another, or at least a new one anyway. Remote has launched Remote Talent, a marketplace integrated with its HR platform. Employers access global talent for local, hybrid, and fully remote roles, handling onboarding and compliance seamlessly. Job seekers find remote roles with detailed filters. The platform soon integrating AI and global knowledge tools. caters to remote work aiming for what it calls a better hiring experience. Remote also recently launched freelancer hub, a platform for freelancers to manage operational tasks. Upwork and Fiverr are losing sleep over remote talent, but Jim, what are your thoughts on remotes move into job board status? Jim Stroud (53:12.814) I think it's a good move for them. I scanned over their website just a little while ago. And I probably missed a couple of things here and there. But if I were them, I would do my best to position Remote as the number one champion of the digital nomad movement. If I wanted to be a digital nomad and just go from place to place working different exotic locations around the world, Remote.com should be the number one place to go for that. I should see information on how to get travel visas, guides on working abroad. I think they do have some guides on working abroad. But the number one thing I would do, probably before even doing all that, is either hire or create a travel influencer to produce videos about working all over the world. I saw their, I looked at their YouTube channel. That's free advice. I looked at their YouTube channel, and I expected to see. Someone say, hey, this is me and I'm in Bali and I'm working here as a software developer and then I go to the beach and then I do this kind of stuff. That kind of video would go viral outside of the job secret market and that would really promote their brand. It probably worked for any of their competitors, but I'm thinking remote. So something like that, they should be all over that. I was surprised not to see that. Maybe I overlooked it, but they should be doing that. Joel Cheesman (54:17.053) Uh huh. Joel Cheesman (54:29.416) Mm-hmm. Wow. Joel Cheesman (54:40.244) Jim likes it, Jim likes it. I do not like it. And here's why. So historically, companies that get a lot of money like Remote has does some dumb shit. They lose focus, they get into stuff that they shouldn't be getting into. They start diluting their talent and what they're thinking about and how they innovate the main product. I'm reminded of... Jim Stroud (54:44.634) Ah. Jim Stroud (54:54.231) Hmm. Joel Cheesman (55:07.02) Simply hired a company, you, you know, as well as I do. And, and back in the day, indeed, and simply hired were sort of both companies coming up in vertical search, jobster was there, but we'll, we'll save them for a different day and. We're indeed was super focused on speed ease of use, basically being Google for jobs. Jim Stroud (55:19.084) Yeah. Jim Stroud (55:22.395) Ha ha Joel Cheesman (55:31.536) Simply hired was like, well, we have 50 million. We have five X what indeed has in funding. What do we, what else do we get into? Like let's throw banner ads up. Let's do a resume, a writing help. Let's do like all these things that were unfocused and not like court of the business, you could argue that it was a fringe function of it. But to me, like an HR platform for everything, uh, remote Jim Stroud (55:31.692) Yep. Joel Cheesman (55:58.196) to like being a job marketplace where employers can find people is totally taking your eye off the ball. And you're competing with Deal and Rippling and Oyster and some big, you know, high dollar competition. You can't afford to be unfocused. I'm also reminded of Handshake, the college recruiting site out there. The last round of funding they got, they talked about taking on LinkedIn. Uh, which is just stupid, but it's also unfocused and taking your mind off or your, your eye off the ball. It's pretty common. You get a bunch of money. Investors go, okay, how are we going to add a billion dollars to the, to the bottom line and you go, well, let's see, let's add jobs, let's take on LinkedIn. Let's, uh, be a streaming service. Like people just lose their minds when they get a lot of money. And from my perspective, This is a dangerous road for remote to be on. I don't think they should be getting into the Upwork Fiverr business. They should stay laser focused on what they do, being the best at it. They already have the best name, arguably, for what they do. Now, if they had started out as a remote work thing, then that's one thing, but they didn't start out that way. I think they're at real risk of screwing it up. But what do I know? I've only been around, I've only been around for 20, 25 years. Jim Stroud (56:54.571) Hmm. Jim Stroud (57:17.938) Time will tell. Joel Cheesman (57:20.072) Let's take another quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about, well, one of my favorite topics. Joel Cheesman (57:39.316) Well, we talked about a job at X's programmatic advertising and text kernels AI. I want you to now meet Pando IQ, which brings two great tastes together, programmatic and AI. That's right. Amplify your recruitment reach and target more qualified candidates with PandoLogic's programmatic job advertising platform, Pando IQ. Pando IQ, a best in class programmatic job advertising platform. with a candidate management dashboard and conversational AI. That's a chat bot to you and I, Jim, for a deeper level of engagement without the heavy lifting or hassles. And Panda was acquired by Veritone, a pioneer in AI who also recently acquired Broadbean, the leader in job distribution. So how many flavors can you actually put onto one solution and have it still taste great? That's Panda IQ. More than enough reasons. Jim Stroud (58:13.646) Hmm. Joel Cheesman (58:36.456) to give them a look. Everything that Pandologic has to offer is something that you should be looking into. You can learn more by just going to pandologic.com. That's P-A-N-D-O-L-O-G-I-C.com. Joel Cheesman (58:57.404) All right, Jim, it's Chipotle time. Jim Stroud (58:59.072) Mm. Joel Cheesman (59:05.852) All right, so this one's straight out of sitcom land. Rosemary Hain, 39 year old, received a minimal sentence for assaulting a Chipotle worker in Ohio. Judge Gilligan, is his name, criticized her behavior offering her an alternative to reduce her jail time, working 20 hours a week at a fast food place for two months. The victim, Emily Russell, left Chipotle Jim Stroud (59:09.545) Mmm. Joel Cheesman (59:35.024) Supported by public donations and a new job. Jim, does the punishment fit the crime on this one? What are your thoughts? Jim Stroud (59:43.39) Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. I love this story. I think it sends a message and hopefully this message will change the entitled culture that we tend to live in these days. What happened to basic manners? You know, what happened to just, you know, saying please and thank you and having a little bit of patience. You know, everything doesn't have to be done in 30 seconds or less. You know, if you have someone that makes a mistake, show a little grace. You know, I think if I traveled through time and let's say that the, if I came back from the nineties and saw that happening, I would be totally shocked. I would think that person is just totally nuts and should be, you know, put it, put aside somewhere to, to get some mental health assistance. But nowadays it seems so common to see these kinds of outbursts. Joel Cheesman (01:00:22.484) Mm-hmm. Jim Stroud (01:00:43.426) And it is really unnerving. It makes me concerned about future generations when you don't have any interpersonal skills, that you can't have any empathy with somebody who's doing the best they can or just having a rough day. In the big scheme of things, someone gets your order wrong. Is it really worth all of that? Just send it back and get what you want. I mean, it's, yeah. I'm so glad it happened to that person. Joel Cheesman (01:01:08.616) Jim, you're bringing us down and we don't do that on Chad and Chi. So I'm going to bring us back up. I'm reminded of a Seinfeld episode where George and Jerry are pitching to NBC. The idea of a show where a guy commits a crime of some sort and the judge, uh, makes him someone's butler for a year. And it's like, the whole show is based on this guy becoming a butler instead of going to jail. So I thought. Jim Stroud (01:01:12.364) Hahaha! Okay. Jim Stroud (01:01:17.72) Mm. Joel Cheesman (01:01:37.18) boy, art imitating life on this one. This person that chunks a bowl at a Chipotle employee is now forced to work fast food as punishment. Now, a little known fact about me, McDonald's was my first real job. This was back in the 80s, and they had the McDLT. Do you remember the McDLT? It was like the hot stays hot and the cold stays cold. Jim Stroud (01:01:39.851) Hmm. Jim Stroud (01:01:54.802) OK. I remember that. Jim Stroud (01:02:01.25) tastes cold. Joel Cheesman (01:02:02.428) The styrofoam boxes they came in clearly destroyed much of the world back in the 80s, but that's neither here nor there. So another side note, George Costanza, not as George Costanza, is in the commercial for the McDLT. So we're bringing this full circle with Seinfeld and my experience at McDLT and McDonald's. And frankly, all this talk about McDonald's and Chipotle is making me... Jim Stroud (01:02:19.774) Wow. Joel Cheesman (01:02:29.744) Very hungry. So let's wrap this thing up, Jim, let people know where they can find out more about SourceCon and give them that discount code again. Jim Stroud (01:02:32.843) Yes. Jim Stroud (01:02:38.166) Sure, you just go to www.sourcecon.com. That's S-O-U-R-C-E-C-O-N.com. Use the code sourcecon10 to get 10% off. Or you can submit four articles to me. My email is jim at sourcecon.com. And four articles that are peer reviewed on the site will get you a free ticket. So that's 100% off. Can't beat that. Joel Cheesman (01:03:00.904) Can't beat that. Another one in the can. Chad will be back next week, unless I get lucky and he falls in the channel or something. And happy birthday to his beautiful wife, Julie Sowash. Jim, give it to me. We out. Jim Stroud (01:03:07.19) Hehehehehehe Jim Stroud (01:03:13.675) Yes. We out! Ho, ho!

Chad is back this week following a week of British hospitality and has some things to add to last week's discussion around Indeed and Appcast. Then it's on to Google's Gemini, they're answer to taking AI up a notch, including multimodal intelligence. That's text, images, audio, video and even code, if you didn't know. What else? Well, LinkedIn's campaign to kill fake accounts and the companies that create them is in high gear, as legal cases are closing, and fines are coming. Plus, Facebook fraudster Barbara Furlow-Smiles, a former global diversity executive at Facebook, comes into view and might explain why the social network's diversity strategy has seemed so out of whack lately. And because we love you, dear listener, so much, we drop some breaking news out of iCIMS to close the show, along with some commentary (of course). Enjoy, and be sure to check us out on YouTube, where we're publishing some really cool content, including the weekly podcast. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snack. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh. Yeah. Like the Jelly of the Month Club. We're the gift that keeps on giving the whole year. What's up, kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Impeachment Cheesman. Chad: This is Chad. What day is it? Joel: Sowash. And on this episode, Appcast strikes back, LinkedIn fights on and Gemini. It's not just the astrological sign of your favorite podcasters. Let's do this. What's up, Chad? Chad: I was trying to figure out what day it is. Spent a week in London and we were stacked. London in December is London in December. I'm just, get that out there. Cold, rainy... Joel: Kinda like London in August. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Yeah. But cold but full of warm pubs, which is fucking amazing. And great people we know, the holiday lights throughout London were just fricking beautiful. And thanks to Peter Weddle and Steven O'Donnell and Bill Fanning for having Julie and I out to the event. We had some great Indian food the first night with Fanning and Stubbsy. Then we went to lunch with Alex Fourlus, who bestowed a couple of bottles of Greek wine upon us. Sushi with our friend, Mikel from Sonic Jobs. Dinner with Sir Richard and Lady Beverly Collins at a pretty swanky Instagram ready Italian restaurant. Joel: Oh yeah. It was Swanky. [laughter] Chad: A night of drinking, Squid Games, dinner and more drinking with Gem, Thomas and Rob from, the guys from Talent Nexus. And a really cool last night out with Sam and the Real Links Board of Advisors at the Groucho Club in Soho. Last but never least, Alex Tchaikovsky brought me some Oktoberfest German beer right from Germany. And I also got a bottle of 12 year reserve single malt Bushmills from our friend. Joel: Okay. Chad: Michael Blakely. So delicious. So delicious. Joel: So I'm surprised you don't know what day it is with all the alcohol and food that you consumed last week. Chad: I'm sorry. Joel: Squid Games. You're gonna have, I know Squid Game the show. Chad: Yeah. Joel: What do you mean you had, you did Squid games? Chad: So they, they've got this immersive game where you literally go into a box. It's a room, but it's a box. You put on these little visors and they've got like these little nodes on them and you play the game on the wall and... Joel: Yeah. Chad: Like green lights. There are just a bunch of different games that you can play. And then you score, you score as a team against other teams, but then you also score against each other. So it was fun. And whenever we go to London, I have to say one of the most fun times we have all the time is with the guys from Talent Nexus 'cause they always take us out to play games. Joel: Sure. Chad: Drink, eat, and then drink again. Joel: Yeah. So was this like a Netflix sanctioned... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Thing... Sponsored or powered by Netflix. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Squid Game. And you went in a thing and it was, had Squid Games branding on it and everything. Chad: Yep. Joel: Oh, shit. That's kinda cool. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It was really cool. An extension. I like it. I like it. And there was a bar there? Chad: Yeah, as a matter of fact. Joel: You could drink and play Green Light? Chad: It's funny because between games, right on the wall, it asks you if you want more alcohol, and then you just go up and you touch the wall and what you want. Right? And I want two IPAs and I want a fizzy drink for Thomas or something like that. And then you put order and two minutes later they come in, they put them down in the little drink holders and you go back to playing the game. SFX: Alright, alright, alright. Chad: Genius. Joel: I'm not hating on that. Not hating on that. SFX: Shout out. Joel: At all. At all. Let's get to some shout outs. Chad: Let's do it. Joel: Shall we? I know you've, you gave a whole bunch in your little explanation of last week's activities. But my first shout out goes out to Checkr. You think Checkr is a background check company? Well, think again, Chad. They've expanded the platform with the launch of Checkr Pay and Checkr Onboard addressing the needs of growing flexible and mobile First Workforce. This stuff reeks of desperation to me. [laughter] Joel: We look at Handshake going after LinkedIn. Last week we talked about Remote taking on Upwork and Fiverr. This kind of dilution of the brand and the services, almost never works out very well. It confuses the consumer. It divides the workforce. It creates confusion. Checkr says background check. It's a great brand. Checkr does not say onboarding solution. They're fucking up. This is what happens when you take too much money when your valuation is too high, you start doing crazy stuff like this. And I think Checkr is going to regret it. However, shout out to them, for doing something, I guess. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's smart because they're going down funnel, whether they can do it successfully or not. That's, we will see. But they definitely have to open up the total addressable market with the money that they took. So they have to do something. The question is, were these the right, the right things to do. Background check into onboarding. Man, there's a good synergy there. The thing is they've gotta go down. Joel: Yeah. Chad: They've gotta go down funnel. That was one of the things that we talked about where LinkedIn is really, they're really stuck, is there at the top of the funnel. And if they come down the funnel, then they have more data. They have, more of an ecosystem. Right now. The ecosystem is just on the top of the funnel. So I don't know. We'll see what they can do. It's, I kinda like those guys. I'm not a big background check guy, but I kinda like those guys. Joel: Yeah. It's a shitty business. So you kind of gotta start doing new stuff, I guess. If you want to support your, what is it, $6 billion valuation or whatever the hell it is. Chad: I don't know. I don't know. Joel: It's crazy. It's crazy. Chad, anyone? It's crazy. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Chad: I've got a Mary Fix Miss. This is from our factory fix guys. We'll talk about fantasy football later, but... Joel: Oh shit. Chad: Big, big shout out to the Cumberland Hotel in London right by Marble Arch where Julie and I stayed. Shout out because they played NFL football every Sunday, which coincidentally also came during their drag show brunch, which was amazing. We had football going on and drag over there. It was like a melding of the communities. Did they actually meet? It doesn't matter. They were together. It was pretty cool. Joel: That escalated quickly. Okay. Moving on. Chad: Yes. Joel: Shout out to Doritos. Chad: Oh, no. Joel: Who doesn't love Doritos? What's your favorite flavor of Doritos? Chad: I love Cool Ranch. I'm big Cool Ranch Dorito guy. Joel: Cool Ranch. Cool Ranch. You gotta, you can't lose with cool ranch. Chad: No. Joel: For sure. The sweet chili is really solid as well. Anyway, can I interest you in a nacho cheddar Doritos flavored liquor drink? Chad: God, no. Oh, that sounds horrible. Joel: Think Cheddar cheese. Vodka. Chad: That thing sounds horrible. Joel: Okay. Chad: Oh my God. Joel: So, so... Chad: I'm about ready to throw up right now. Joel: Doritos PepsiCo is partnered with Empirical, who's a big, booze, booze, booze maker. And they have fused nacho cheese Dorito flavor. Chad: Yeah. Joel: With vodka. Chad: Wow. Wow. Joel: The reviews of people who have had it is that it's good. Now PepsiCo needs to get in bed with Taco Bell and get this nacho Doritos drink with some Taco Bell. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And your boy here is in Nirvana. Okay. I don't know about the hangover, beer shits the next morning. But for the night, that sounds like a pretty good time to me. Shout out to... Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Doritos Liqueur coming in January at the low low price, Chad, of $65 a bottle. So skip the Old Forester, skip the Bib and Tucker, skip. Yeah. Chad: No. Joel: Go to the Doritos $65 aisle for that one. Chad: I will not. Joel: For that one. Chad: That sounds like a very high price tag to puke my guts out. Joel: It's very expensive. Chad: Oh, that's crazy. Joel: Especially for vodka. Chad: That's crazy. So I'm gonna shout out to infrastructure. Shout out to high speed rail. And it's about time in the US, announced Friday the largest federal investment in passenger trains in decades with 8.2 billion in new funding for high speed rail and other projects nationwide. Infrastructure, baby. And it's about fucking time. Joel, have you ever been on high speed rail? Joel: Yeah. It's called European transportation. Chad: There it is. Yes. Yes, you have more space. There's no TSA, no long lines. It's just a better experience than flying when you're not crossing an ocean. Europe is bigger than the US. China is bigger than the US. Guess what? They both have high speed fucking rail. It's about time. So big shout out to the US and high speed rail. Joel: Yeah. I hope this works. We've talked about Europe, it's like half the size and twice the population. So rail makes a ton of sense. Everything is close by, ton of people. And... Chad: Landmass wise, it's bigger than the US. Joel: I thought it was half the size, but twice the population. Chad: Nope. Landmass wise. Europe, European, Europe. Joel: We need Adam Gordon to chime in on this. Adam Gordon. Chime in on this. Chad: It's fairly simple. You can just go to Google and do a search on landmass. Joel: What's Google again? Anyway, so we're in Indianapolis. Chad: ChatGPT. Joel: There should be a Chicago Indie, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, regional makes a ton of sense. Both of those, all those cities would benefit greatly if there was like a... Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: High speed train that took you to downtown. The center of downtown of all those places. But Americans love their cars, so we'll, see what happens. Chad: Well. We love the cars 'cause we've been forced to use cars. We in Indianapolis have been trying to get fucking light rail forever. And the Koch brothers have been down on that shit. They've been spending money against it so that we keep buying oil. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So this a lot. Joel: Yeah. Chad: It doesn't have to do with us loving cars, it has to do with what we have available to us. Joel: Yeah. Car and oil had better lobbyists than the railroads did back in the day. But yeah. Chad: Very much. Joel: Yeah. The high-speed train is sexy. I'd like to see it. SFX: Ay papi. [laughter] Joel: I'd like to see it at least in my, I wanna get to Chicago easier and faster and cheaper. Chad: Exactly. You know what's even better than fast rail? Free stuff. T-shirts from JobGet. Beer, Aspen Tech Labs. God, I love those guys. Whiskey, I don't know if you've seen Textkernel's new logo. Have you seen it? Go to textkernel.com. New logo, new brand. Pretty amazing. And if it's your birthday kid, if it's your birthday, Hey listener. Rum with Plum. SFX: [laughter] Joel: Oh shit. SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down to my plums. Joel: So before we get to this week's, your wife celebrated a birthday last week. Chad: Yes. Joel: Do you wanna say anything nice about her or what you guys did? Chad: Oh, did I not go through the long laundry list of what we did in London? Not to mention. Joel: Oh, so you wrapped that into her birthday? Chad: Yes. Not to mention she came back with three more pairs of Vejas. So she has three sets of Vejas for Europe and three sets of Vejas for the US. Joel: Do all Vejas have the V and the, on the sneaker or do they like. Chad: I think so. Joel: Have like boots and... Chad: I'm not a Veja expert, although I know all of hers have the V's. Joel: Yeah. Got it, got it. All right, well, let's get to this week's birthdays. Chad: Okay. Joel: Some fans are celebrating another trip around the sun that includes Jack Mahoney, Lars Coos, Allison Paget, Fozzie Imtiaz, Alex Micklin, Phil Larkins, Christina Lowry, Aaron Stevens, Rathin Sinha, Max Armbruster. Chad: There he is. Joel: Your boy? Jonathan Duarte. And a very special birthday by my father, Will. Chad: Yes. Joel: Cheesman is celebrating. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Number 84 on planet Earth. Happy birthday everybody. Happy birthday. Chad: Happy birthday. Joel: Before you ask. He loves Popcorn. So we're getting him every imagine... Maybe, maybe Doritos flavored liquor, popcorn. I don't know. We're gonna get all the kind of popcorn that my dad can eat with the seven remaining teeth that are still his original teeth. Chad: Get all the popcorn. If you have to, put it in the blunder, just make sure he gets the popcorn. Okay? Joel: Toothpicks for days. Chad: Yes. Joel: Getting those kernels out. Good lord. Joel: Oh my God. So events, kids. Travel powered by Shaker Recruitment marketing. We already have eight conferences planned for 2024. The very first is the event in San Diego. That's right. TA week where we're going to be hanging out with koalas. Yeah. No shit. Koalas at the zoo. We're going to the zoo. Why? Because we are hanging with the guys and girls and crew from Qualifi. That's the one that starts with the Q ends with the I. Qualifi. If you wanna check it out, go to chadcheese.com/events. We're really stoked. Evan White has been, he's been in high fucking gear putting together events and doing some really, really cool work. So I'm excited to work with him this year. Joel: Yeah. Evan is out of control. [vocalization] Chad: [laughter] Joel: I have a Canadian update on one of my travels. So our friends at HiringBranch were at HR Tech this past year. Chad: Nice. Joel: We did the high roller with them at Unleash earlier in the year. And I was talking to him about living in Montreal. Everyone listens regularly knows my wife is Canadian. I have Canadian in-Laws. Chad: Yep. Joel: And my father-in-law's a big Montreal Canadiens fan. So I was asking if he went to games, was it hard to get tickets? He is like, well, I share season tickets with a few other guys, blah, blah, blah. Long story short, the wife and I are gonna drop the kid off in London, Ontario, take a train. We talked about trains. Take a nice little train ride all the way to Montreal. We're gonna have dinner, I think, with some of his team, the night before. And then the night of, go to the game, we're gonna get to see the Oilers. Connor McDavid arguably the best hockey player in the world. So I'm pumped for that. But that's my travel. It's sorta business, sorta not. Chad: I love it. Joel: You're not involved. You don't have to be, but yeah, HiringBranch. Thank you. We'll see you. We'll see you in a few weeks. For sure. Chad: Beautiful. Joel: For sure. Chad: Are you just trying not to talk about fantasy football and your ass whipping last week? I'm just, I'm not sure. [laughter] Joel: All right. So I've split with you. Okay. I split with you. [music] Joel: Well, all right. Let's, okay. Chad: Well, your record wouldn't show that. So. Joel: That's, oh, all right. Okay, everybody. Fantasy football is winding down. Chad, like me is not in the playoffs at this point. Chad: I'm five again. Last year I was number five. Fuck. Joel: Praying. Yeah. Praying he does not make the playoffs because he will be really hard to live with if he does. Here's your leaderboard. For the, I think final week of the regular season. This has been sponsored by our friends at FactoryFix. Can't thank them enough for supporting our unhealthy addictions, like fantasy football. And Chad is showing, his FactoryFix sweater Christmas sweater. Chad: On our YouTube. Yeah. Joel: If you're not watching us on YouTube... Chad: This is like a jersey. Joel: You gotta go to YouTube. Chad: It's like jersey quality. Joel: Yeah. @ChadCheese. Chad bought an ugly sweater of our podcast, like the first or second year that we did this. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I assume you still have that. Chad: Oh God. Yeah 'cause it is fucking epic. Joel: He's like, Well, let's sell this. I'm like, no one's gonna buy this shit. I don't know. Maybe we need to do like a special... Chad: Everybody loved it. Joel: Christmas sweater. Yeah. Sponsored by somebody. Chad: Get with Mike from FactoryFix. See if he can do it in this kind of, this is like jersey material. This is fucking legit, thick. Nice. Joel: It looks comfortable. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: It doesn't look itchy at all. It looks really nice. Chad: Perfect. Joel: It looks really nice. Okay. Here's your leaderboard everybody. Probably the last week that we'd go through the whole thing before the playoffs. [laughter] Joel: Number one, she's been there all year. Pretty much... Chad: Kicking ass. Joel: Michelle, Sergeant Slaughter. Chad: Yes. Joel: And number one. Number two, she's been there just about the whole season. It's Marcy Playground Mall. Number three, funky Cold Medina Perro. Number four, Jagged Little Jill Patterson. Chad, just on the line at number five. Chad Future Ball Cheese Sowash. Number six. Joe Bagga Dixon. He's there, he's right there. He's the sixth one. Joel: Number seven, Brent Musburger. Number eight. Billy Joel Cheesman. Number nine, Dean Wizard of Ossner. Number 10, Jasper The friendly ghost Spanjaart. Number 11, Dennis the Menace Tupper. And he's tied with Kristen Duncan Sheik Urban. That's right. She's barely, barely breathing at. [laughter] Joel: At number 12, but I'm more excited to see who's in the cellar at the end of the year. Then who's in the playoffs because Tupper and Urban are fighting for that last spot. And if Tupper goes from first to worst, we're gonna have to get him an epic something to like showcase as the loser, for the season. Chad: Like a broom. Joel: Also. Chad: A toilet brush. Joel: Also, notably, we will likely have an all female playoff, this season, which I think is fucking awesome. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So fucking awesome. So fucking awesome. Chad: Yep. Joel: All right. That is your Fantasy Fix leaderboard once again. Sponsored by our friends at FactoryFix. By the way, the Browns play The Bears this week. If any of the FactoryFix people wanna lose some money, just hit me up on the DMs and we can figure that out, friends. [music] Joel: Alright, Chad, well missing last week. I know you're chomping at the bit to talk about a few of the items that we discussed. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Jim Stroud was nice enough to join me, take some time off from SourceCon and fill in for you. But you have some stuff on your chest you want to get off? What's up? Chad: Well, first off, yeah. So Jim, thanks again for guest hosting my friend, known Jim forever, but you might not remember... [applause] Chad: You might remember Jim was our very first guest host in April of 2017, when Jeremy was being born, he stepped in and we were very, very early into this fucking journey, so... Jim's the OG. Yeah, he's the OG. So I have to say it was quite refreshing to kinda sit back, listen to last week's show, digest it, and then pull together some comments, because the dumping of CPA seems to be just a big retreat by Indeed. Two quick points number one, a history lesson. How did Indeed take Organic away, the free traffic away first and foremost, or I guess, I'm sorry, transition to moving everybody to paid traffic. Chad: They started with job boards first and they made them pay for traffic, so it was... They took that little piece out, it was a third of it, they took them out, they made them pay for traffic, then Indeed waited patiently. Then staffing company's jobs were taken out of the free feed and they had to pay the Indeed piper, right? After the dust settled on that one with staffing companies, then hiring companies were next, so how was that successful rollout different than what we experienced this year? Joel: Tell me, Chad. Chad: They did it all at once. They weren't fucking around, they didn't follow their tried and true trojan horse model, the indeed crew has grown cocky and sloppy. So why do you think that is? It just blew my mind seeing Raj Mukherji talk about, Well, things are getting better and employers are starting to like it and it's very new. Joel: Sure. Chad: And then we go back and now it's an experiment, so why are they getting so cocky and sloppy. Joel: So we talked about this, so I'll give you, I guess, three reasons. One is hubris, you mentioned it when you just get cocky and confident in you can't lose, then you just do stuff and think everyone's gonna love it. And that rarely works. The other one is they have a new sugar daddy, they have a new private equity firm that's probably forcing them to look at what's working and what isn't, and this probably wasn't working the way that it should, and somebody, a grown up in the room hopefully said, This needs to go... Because it's not the direction that we need to go. And I think the third one is a little bit of fear. I... Regardless of what people say, I think Google for Jobs is growing, I think once they start pay-per-click, some advertising solution there, it's gonna pull money away from Indeed, so doing things out of fear like this. Also programmatic, it's really hard to have a conversation as an Indeed salesperson and talk about like, I'm paying 12 cents a click here, but I'm paying you 84 cents like... Chad: A click. Joel: Why am I doing that? And that's a really hard conversation to have, if you create confusion in this new model that, No, it's not clicks, it's applicant or it's interested candidate, then you create confusion and then people just go, "Oh, okay." Then it's not 14 cents versus 52 cents. It's something different. Chad: So that was point number one. They just seemed to be sloppy and cocky because they've been able to roll these things out very effectively before. Number two, you made a Google comparison to Indeed, which was pretty apples and oranges, and let me hit this up, so Google doesn't control the product and they never did. They were like the marketplace, but they never controlled the product. Indeed controls the entire ecosystem, right? That's a huge difference, indeed. I'm predicting they can and they will do CPA, why? They have no fucking choice with Google for Jobs and LinkedIn breathing down their necks, once Indeed finally invest cash in a system that can actually match candidates against experiences and skills to do job requirements. It's a done deal, and that's not complex at all, as a matter of fact, ZipRecruiter should have productized this already, I can't believe they didn't. You want 10 candidates that meet your requirements to apply, done, then the ad shuts off after 10 applies happen. It's not hard. We've gotten the information, we know their qualified... Boom, you got what you asked for. They might not be exactly what you want. But it doesn't matter. Chad: You wanted qualified applicants, you got 10 qualified applicants. What's hard is Indeed's matching technology is shit, and their back-end system is in legacy status, I spoke with some people last week when I was in London, and they pointed directly at Indeed getting fat and lazy like Monster did, and that their back-end literally not changing for seven years. So Indeed will have to spend the money, they have plenty, they've gotta do it to retool to make CPA happen, the cost per started apply, that's another mess and another story, but I think CPA. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Which they say they dumped. I think that's coming, they just have to do a shit ton of retooling on the back-end, because with their forced registration right now they're gaining more candidates into their database, they need to start asking more information of those candidates, create richer profiles, and then they need a better matching system. In the end, I don't know, maybe they try to buy Textkernel or something like that. Somebody who actually works... SFX: 60% of the time, it's crazy. [laughter] Joel: Now you're getting crazy. Now, you're getting crazy, I would love to see when Google launches their paid product or they're paid option, if they go like bottom feeder per click pricing, talking $0.05 a click, I'll talking disrupt the Programmatic people. Disrupt Indeed. Totally throw a grenade down the hallway of the job board industry. I don't think they'll do that, but it would be really fun to watch. The other thing is there's a technical side to this, and there's a human side to it, because people can do the math in their head saying, "Okay, I pay this many for this many clicks and I got this many candidates, and okay... " they've somehow adjusted to the cost of that, and they're okay with it. When they start paying tens of dollars for an applicant, if that applicant is not great, the math on that is tougher because I'm paying dollars as opposed to cents for garbage, and there's a mental human thing that they have to have to figure out if they can. The technical part is one of it, but if you can't convince people that I'm cool with paying for an applicant, I'm cool paying this much for it, then it's not gonna work, so that's a bigger problem for me with them than it is the tech side. Joel: Or do they have something else that's different. It's gonna be fun to watch. I think they're stuck between a rock and a hard place, and if Google comes out with bottom dweller pricing, it's gonna be really, really interesting, and if they start putting those ads in your Gmail, they start putting job postings on YouTube and other places in their network that's gonna shake up the programmatic folks, it's gotta be fun. Come on Google, let's get it done. Chad: I see Indeed buying a lot of that real estate, by the way. Joel: They already are. Chad: And then secondarily talking about Appcast and Twitter and Greenhouse and Lever a couple of weeks ago. So our discussion, were you dug into the jobs feed of the Twitter's new "hiring platform". Yes, if you're not watching on YouTube, I'm using air quotes, hiring platform. Chad: Had us scratching our head and wondering what the actual fuck is going on over there. I mean, huge brands have directed their big marketing agencies to pull all advertising from Twitter, but what happens if those same companies' jobs start showing up beside antisemitic posts powered by jobs feed given to them by Greenhouse, Lever, Appcast, whomever, right? So we receive tons of opinions, which we always do from listeners, and that's great, and a response from the man with the million dollar smile, the COO over at Appcast, that's Matt Molinari. Matt posted, "Hey all, I'd like to clarify a few points. On behalf of Appcast, we have always empowered our customers to direct us to remove sites and channels from their job advertising strategy, Appcast customers, with jobs distributed to X. Twitter, have been made aware and have the choice if they'd like to continue doing so, that said Appcast remains committed to staying at the cutting edge of job ad distribution. Yada, yada, yada, yada, a bunch of policy stuff. Joel: Yada, yada, yada, yada. Chad: I totally love it, the latter part was more I think legal, than it was Matt. I love it. But why is this a big deal? So there was a bit of gaslighting on the socials last week, and running parallels between LinkedIn and Indeed job postings with these Twitter postings, and let me qualify why this is so different, antisemitic tweets, social posts will not show up in the Indeed or LinkedIn feed next to your employer's jobs, the end goal of the Twitter hiring platform is to add job content into the main Twitter feed, this is where all the toxic posts are happening, there's a huge difference in saying that I wanna use Indeed, I just... I don't like their pricing model versus I don't wanna use Twitter because they've got antisemitic posts. Those are entirely different. So that was last week. And remember jobs are not yet in with the tweets. They're not there yet, but they will be. So just imagine your brand showing up beside a purely toxic tweet or maybe I don't know. A tweet from Alex Jones. That's right, kids. Alex Jones was allowed back on Twitter this week, the very anniversary of Sandy Hook School massacre. Who's Alex Jones, you might ask? Chad: Well, if you forgot, Alex Jones claimed for years that the killing of 20 students and six staff members at Sandy Hook Elementary school, elementary school, in Newton, Connecticut was staged with actors as a part of a government plot to cease Americans guns. So yes, I do trust Matt's words 'cause I trust Matt, he's an awesome dude. But I'm also a huge believer in trust, but verify, make sure you know where your fucking jobs are showing up, the jobs are not co-mingling yet in the actual Twitter feed, but when that shit starts happening, stay diligent, kids. SFX: Another one. Joel: So we talked about this pretty extensively, talked about Appcast providing backfill for Twitter, which it still is as well as Greenhouse and others, and Matt was quick to point out that advertisers have control over where their jobs show up, yada, yada, and that's great that he reached out. A lot of companies don't reach out or publicly explain what's going on, and that's their right. I would say when you get to a certain size, you should have a team or somebody dedicated to giving a heads up to the industry media, the bloggers, the podcasters, whatever, and by doing that, you and I or one of us should have gotten a heads up like, Hey guys, they never reached out to me, the PR, like the PR person. Chad: Well, I just wanna say that I reached out to somebody of one of the big companies who actually had their marketing pulled off Twitter to ask TA if they received anything from their applicant tracking system or anything like that about this whole thing, received nothing. But yes, we definitely need to receive that shit, but before we do, the companies do. Joel: The customers do, yeah... Chad: Yeah, when we start actually being the ones who are heading all of these conversations, which we shouldn't be, but... Fuck it. That's who we are. Joel: That's it. If you wanna control the narrative, you have to communicate with the people who talk about this stuff, and then you're not stuck on LinkedIn with your COO talking about like, "Oh, here's the policy, guys" or "Here's what's going on, in case there are any questions". We should have known before the deal was done, "Hey, we're doing this, anyone that doesn't wanna be on Twitter can not be on it, we've let our customers know." So we could have gone on the show and said, Hey, this has happened, and Appcast is there, but they've done the due diligence of letting their companies get off if they don't wanna be on the Twitter platform. There's nothing on their website that I saw that says anything about customers can control where the stuff goes. I'm sure it's there, maybe when you log in, but when you get to a certain size as a company, have people, have one person dedicated to building a bridge to all the media that's industry-wide, give us a call, we'll give you... We'll give you the first dozen... Chad: We know those people well already. Joel: It's not a big community, but let them know because I can tell you I've never gotten anything from Appcast like, "Hey, this is coming. Here's a news release, we're dropping on whatever", nothing. So Appcast, you bought an agency, agencies do this for a living, empower them to reach out to the industry media and anybody that's a certain size, think about people like us because we talk and your customers listen, your partners listen, and it could save you a lot of headaches, if you control the message before it drops. Chad: No question. Joel: No question. Alright, well, somebody who generally does get the message but does not reach out to us. SFX: Chad: [laughter] Joel: Google is in the news, let's talk about Google's Gemini, they've, making some waves in the tech world, to say the least, it's designed to be a multi-modal, which means it can understand and work in various types of information such as text, images, audio, video and code, Google has big plans for Gemini, they're integrating it into many of their products, including search, their ad platform and their web browser, Chrome. It's largely been celebrated as an ambitious project that has the potential to change the way we interact with technology. Chad, my favorite. Gemini, by the way, what are your thoughts on Gemini? Chad: Question. Did you see the promotional video? Joel: I did, I did. Chad: It was a promotional video, was not a demo, but it was pretty astounding, I think we need to stand in awe of where we've come in just the last year, ChatGPT was opened up to the public a little over a year ago, and we're now, we were marveling over poems and image generation because it was fucking cool. So when you start taking a look at multi-modal, why I tell you what, we talked about this, and just like to let you know that the Chad and Cheese brought this to you back in July, kids, go ahead and play that beautiful bean footage, Joel. Joel: Yep, have a listen. SFX: Chad: The big key here that I think through these three; inflection, runway and typeface is multi-modal, and when you're talking about multi-modal models, it's not just consuming text, but you're also consuming audio and video. So if you wanna contextualize the data, which is really what this is all about, You need all aspects of that data, so think about it, if you're reading something, you gain some context, if you're listening to it, then you gain more context than reading, listening than watching, you're just continual starting to understand how AI can learn. Chad: So we're getting past just the text aspect. Joel: Bingo. Boom. Chad: Again, we talked about multi-modal, so Gemini is the first model to outperform humans on what they call an MMLU, a massive multi-task language understanding, there are so many fucking acronyms in this shit. One of the most popular methods to test the knowledge and problem solving of any AI model, Gemini beats ChatGPT-4 in every general AI reasoning, math and code category, only ChatGPT-4 was better in reasoning, one of the subsets, common sense reasoning for everyday tasks. So they have three offerings, one is nano, which is gonna be for my droid phone, which is gonna be awesome. Chrome and some of the devices. Then you've got Pro, which I'm assuming is gonna be more of an SMB model, and then Enterprise, which is where every... Those big companies are gonna start grinding data. Two weeks ago, we talked about how these large language models are cars, and the data you feed into them are the fuel. What's happening is the car is evolving from a Model T to Ferrari in record fucking pace, so what you can do with that data is going to be amazing, it's gonna be mind-boggling to be quite frank. Chad: So with these numbers, Google just leap frogged OpenAI, aka Microsoft. Get ready because Microsoft's answer, then maybe Amazon or Anthropic's answer is gonna be a leap frogging Google. This is going to be the race, kids, and it's not gonna be who wins because this race is just going to fucking continue and those big three players, Amazon, Google, and Microsoft, they're gonna stay in the race. Anthropic, we'll see who actually gobbles them up, 'cause somebody's going to. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Yeah, Google went deep on this. [laughter] Joel: To explain the video if you haven't seen it, there's a developer and a voice, the voice is the AI, and he starts by drawing a squiggly line and the voice says... And he says, "What's this?" He's like, "It looks like a squiggly line," and then he finishes it. It looks like a duck. And the voice says, "Oh, it looks like a duck." He draws water, the AI is like, "Oh, the duck is in water," and it kinda keeps going, different shapes. It shows like a rubber ducky, and then it says, it has a duck, a rubber duck and has two roads, one ends in a bear, one ends in another duck and they're like, "Which road should I take?" And it says, "One of them looks like there's a bear, the other one is duck, so ducks are friendly, go to the duck," that's kind of where this thing is going, and it's pretty mind-blowing, and I think about how that could impact our space. Look, you could see a world where a video camera watches you at work all day, and then the AI says at the end of the year, did they deserve a raise or not based on what they saw, what... Joel: How much work they did, facial expressions, whatever, how much of a raise should they get, how do they compare with the other workers in their department because we've been watching them the whole time. You could see a world where this thing watches an interview and says which candidate they would hire as part of it, and why would they do that. Are there ones that they thought were sketchy, and this gets into higher view facial recognition stuff, this gets our friend Keith Sonderling interested, I'm sure in terms of how this could play into exclusivity and racism and bias. Joel: So this is cool, but it's gonna do some really weird, interesting things for the workforce, because I could see a day where Big Brother is watching you all day and giving a report to everybody about what it saw, what it thinks about what your job is, that gets into Minority Report status, predicting what you're gonna do like how you are gonna respond to stuff, it could be sales process, it could be like going into a store, could be... Think about school shootings, you mentioned Sandy Hook, imagine a video camera outside of every school that says, "Oh, this looks like a bad guy" for whatever reason, and then locks the doors until there's some approval process, so you could look at security very differently than we do now. But yeah, very impressive. I'm anxious to see where this goes, it's slightly scary. I was really hoping that he was gonna set down like a dildo or draw some boobs to see what the AI, if it could recognize those or not, but unfortunately, it wasn't a 12-year-old boy doing the demos for AI. Chad: Maybe next time. Joel: People are gonna abuse this thing, have fun with it, joke around with it, but yeah, it is impressive technology, and it is gonna change the way work is done and how people are evaluated and how people are hired for sure. Chad: I can see contextualized AI videos, contextualized AI interviews. So video creation, audio creation, a lot of stuff you're talking about is very dystopian, trying to look at the little stuff, the things that we can see in our space and how these models could perspectively create just a better experience for recruiters and for job seekers. Joel: We're talking about augmented stuff, it's like literally assistant watching and looking and seeing things as they are, like voice, video, audio, all that stuff being gobbled up and chewed up and spit out in an intelligent way. Alright, well, my mind's a little bit blown. Let's take a break and we'll talk about LinkedIn when we get back. Alright, Chad, let's talk a little LinkedIn. LinkedIn continues its fight against fake accounts by winning a legal case against top social and social BD24. The defendants were found to have created over 400,000 fake LinkedIn accounts and were ordered to pay damages and prohibited from offering fake followers, likes, views, comments or connections. Sarah white, a VP of Legal at LinkedIn said, "We're encouraged by our decisive win and will continue to leverage all available tools, including legal action when necessary to ensure the LinkedIn community remains trusted and authentic." Finally, I feel safe using LinkedIn. Chad, what are your thoughts on the news out of our favorite social business network? Chad: Damn. So I think this is a pretty amazing precedent that's being set, but $43,000 for damages, that's a slap on the wrist. $430,000 would provide a punch in the mouth that I think this deserves. This is a shot over the bow to companies out there that are inflating their company size with fake employees on LinkedIn, and it's happening. And we're seeing it happen. Why are they doing that? Number one to bloat what people think the size of their organization is. Number one, not to mention sharing content, commenting on content, bloating really all the commenting segments and engagement segments with fake engagement. I don't see this just as these companies who are nailed with a pissy ass fine, there are companies that are out there today that hopefully, LinkedIn has a reporting methodology to ensure that they can start to prove that some of these people are actually real, instead of just finding an image on Midjourney and are creating a image on Midjourney and starting to create profiles. Joel: So here's the LinkedIn playbook as I see it, Chad. Step one, keep everyone out of your house, this is sue everyone scraping your profiles, everyone that's using it to create new services and solutions, the HighQ legal case has kinda solved that for the most part, in combination with like playing whack-a-mole with spiders and scrapers that come to the site. But for the most part, the products and services created to scrape LinkedIn has subsided, so step one has been achieved, I think for the most part, number two is just what happened is legitimize your data, if people can't get to the data, but the data is garbage, then it's not worth as much as if it's legitimized and original content. So step two is taking place, who's putting fake profiles? Joel: How do we identify those? Get them out. Step two is en route, and there's a lot of... If these knuckle heads were putting out $400,000 fake accounts, imagine somebody who's serious about this and what they could do to the data that's in there. Once they've achieved that, and by the way, they've partnered with Clear and other services to try to help legitimize the profiles that are there, if they can get to a point where 85, 90-plus percent of the profiles are all original or even closer to 100%, then it's like turn on the money printing machine because you have achieved Xanadu in terms of what they do, look, Microsoft pay $26 billion not for the job board, not for the learning up-scaling solution that they have, they did it for the people that are on LinkedIn. The directory of professionals is highly monetizable, but they gotta get those in line with being legitimate people who are real, so this is their next step, if they get to step three, think about what you're gonna be paying for LinkedIn, you think you're paying a lot now, if they feel like they have a high level of real people and profiles on the platform, what you pay now for LinkedIn is gonna be a pittance for what you're gonna be paying for it in the future. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Three steps to the money making machine, the money printing machine at LinkedIn, it's happening, people. It's happening. Chad: [laughter] With their old ass tech, it's happening. Joel: But good for them. LinkedIn is better if it's real people. Chad: No, agree 100%. Agree 100%. Joel: No one can be pissed off about, Yeah, get all the fake stuff off, that's perfectly great. Chad: Yeah, they can be pissed off about Facebook though. Joel: Yes, they can definitely pissed off by Facebook, yeah. That's... SFX: Does anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Alright, a little Facebook fraud. Can I interest you in that? Chad: Let's do that. [overlapping conversation] Joel: Barbra Furlow-Smiles, a former Global Diversity Executive at Facebook has pleaded guilty to stealing over $4 million from the company through an elaborate scheme involving fraudulent vendors, fictitious charges and cash kickbacks. She used her position to make Facebook pay numerous individuals for goods and services that were never provided and then received kickbacks from them. She also caused Facebook to onboard vendors owned by friends and associates who paid her kickbacks after receiving payment from Facebook. She used the stolen money to live a luxurious lifestyle in California and Georgia. I guess as luxurious as Georgia can be, she lived it. She is scheduled to be sentenced in March of 2024. Just in time for March Madness. Chad, what are your thoughts on fraud at Facebook? Chad: Yeah. So Barbara Furlow-Smiles served as a lead strategist, global head of employee resource groups and diversity engagement at Facebook. This is her own community, this is her own fucking community that she's fucking over. No wonder why the damn DEIB initiative over there failed, we've been making fun of it for years, they spent all this money and nothing happened, this is why. It was rotting from the fucking head, it was rotting from this Barbara Furlow-Smiles. She deserves the orange jumpsuit for 2023. She gets the orange jumpsuit award. Her and ol' girl from Joonko. This has been the year of fraud for a couple of females in leadership positions, which just... I am fucking floored. Joel: What she had going on was one hell of a fucking like OG Capone style racket going on, and the sad thing to me is people are gonna connect DEI person with criminal, and that's just wrong. And I encourage any company that's listening to separate the two, DEI is not her, she's not representative of Facebook and what they have been doing. Take out what Facebook's been doing for the last five years in DEI off the table. Separate the two from your brain because they have nothing to do with each other, and it's sad that it will. People will connect the two. And it sucks for the movement, for sure. Joel: Damn it. I need to take a break and maybe talk about strippers, maybe that'll make me feel better, I don't know. We'll be right back, everybody. Chad: Well, Joel, unfortunately, I'm going to go ahead and actually bust in with some breaking news, so we're not gonna talk about strippers this week, I'm sorry. ICIMS is following a thorough search to ensure they bring in the right leader to lead iCIMS into the next chapter. They have identified their new CEO, Jason Edelboim will be the CEO effective January 2nd. He brings nearly two decades of experience in data technology and enterprise software and previously held senior leadership positions at Cision, PR at Newswire and Bloomberg. He's a PR guy. He most recently served as President and COO at Data Miner, an AI platform company that pioneer technology for the real-time detection of events and business critical information for public data sources to corporate enterprises and government organizations. That's right, kids. January 2nd, iCIMS will have a new CEO, that's fucking awesome. But yes, this literally just came into my email and it is hot off the presses. What do you think? Joel: So a few things in there, Data Miner, a public company, I believe that went IPO fairly recently, I don't know if this guy was part of that process, but if iCIMS wants to go public, having someone with that experience obviously makes a lot of sense, and I thought that was one of the reasons why they had the last two CEOs. Certainly took enough time, so I hope they vetted everyone and had long conversations, and... Chad: After the last one, they had to take the time. Joel: Hopefully this guy sticks around a while. Hopefully he sticks around a while. Cision you said was the company that he's coming from, I don't know anything about Cision, so I don't know... Chad: He's from Data Miner so Cision is... Joel: So Data Miner is his most recent gig. Chad: One of the PR groups, one of the actual PR marketing groups. Joel: But yeah, I'm sure everyone at iCIMS is just happy to have a captain of the ship again. Chad: Well, breaking news, and hopefully next week you can talk about strippers. Joel: Can I give you a stripper joke though? Chad: Sure. Joel: The worst stripper joke. What's the difference between a waitress at a strip club and a stripper? A waitress at a strip club and a stripper. What's the difference? Chad: One's topless and the other one isn't? Joel: About two weeks, we out. Chad: Oh. We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you, you made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there is no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back, like an awful train wreck, you can't look away and like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either. We out.

It's earnings season, which means our show's usual suspects are opening up the books and showing off their numbers. Unfortunately, unless your name is Upwork, Uber and DoorDash - darlings of the gig economy - the numbers aren't all that exciting. Spoiler alert: Indeed, Glassdoor, ZipRecruiter and Dice disappointed pretty much every shareholder. While job sites are losing, however, labor continue to win in light of the recent UAW smackdown of Detroit's Big Three. In addition to carmakers, airlines are getting in on the act, and don't be surprised if more segments start blowing up, thanks to so much China hating going on at the moment in the West. What's more? Google for Jobs keeps evolving, RTO policies keep sucking, especially for mental health disabilities and challenges and Russia continues to ruin everything. This is why we can't have nice things, but at least we still have podcasts like this one to spread joy around the world. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who start every day with a green smoothie. The bartender says it's a margarita. Whatever. What's up, kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel "Footchball" Cheesman. Chad: This is Chad "You've been Rick rolled" Sowash. Joel: And on this show, Google for Jobs is not a nonprofit. HR Tech is having a hard time finding profits, and US worker's paychecks are raining profits. Let's do this. Chad: Okay, I want to clear the air here, okay? So Jasper Spanjaart, who thinks he knows something about Portuguese, we're in Paris for Unleash. Is that where it was? It was, right. Okay. And he tells you that the way that they say football in Portuguese is, footchball. What the fuck is that? Joel: This was an 18-minute conversation about how to pronounce football. Chad: He comes back later and says, yeah, I was totally wrong. That's not how you pronounce it. I'm like, yeah, no shit, asshole. Joel: It's fun to say, though, footchball. Intro: It is very fun to say. So I have to thank Jasper for that one, because that was a funny 18-minute conversation about nothing, which is kind of like just about the length of a Seinfeld episode. Joel: Yeah. Wasn't this before he ate some bad fish and spent like the next eight hours on the toilet? Chad: It was not good. It was not good for poor Jasper. Joel: Yeah, it was not good at all. Unlike the meals you're having in Portugal, by the way. Chad: Oh, dude, yes. It is beautiful. It is like a wonderful 75 degrees. I was just on the water, kind of clearing my head before I had time with you and here we are. So yeah, let's get this over with. Joel: Time with me. Time with me. Clearly, there's no Olive Garden in Portugal. Chad: No. No, but we do have olive trees everywhere. Joel: That's where the fried stuff with cheese was. So that's the whole point. Chad: Yes, exactly. Joel: Well, I'm glad you're having a good time. You're there through the holidays. So everyone, if you're sick of Chad living his best life pictures on Facebook, well, guess what? They're not going to stop. Chad: Yeah, pause. Pause me on Facebook if you don't want to see my pictures, and Instagram if you don't want to see my pictures. Joel: If you don't see them, you'll run into Cardboard Chad on a Zoom call near you, at some point. Chad: Thanks to ERIN app. Yes. All right, let's jump into these shout outs 'cause I know everybody wants to hear them. My first shout out goes to senior recruiters who are getting Rick rolled by resumes. SFX: Never going to give you up. Never going to let you down. Never going to run around and desert you. Chad: That's right. Recruiters should obviously take more than seven seconds to review a resume. Why, you might ask? Why? Well, Angelina Lee, a software engineer, totally duped recruiters with a hilarious resume with bullet points that got her immediate interviews. Here are some of those bullet points. While at Instagram, she was a full stack engineer that led teams, a team of six engineers to mine Bitcoin on company servers. At Zillow, as a senior full stack engineer, she organized team bonding through a company potato sack race, resulting in increased team bonding and cohesivity. At LinkedIn as a software engineer, she connected with Reid Hoffman on LinkedIn and slid into the DMs. Joel: That was her skill. That was on the resume. Sliding into Reid Hoffman's... Chad: Yep. SFX: That escalated quickly. Chad: At the University of Berkeley, California, she set the Phi Beta Phi fraternity record for most vodka shots in one night. That is all. That's a bullet. And last but never least, all the links in her resume lead to a video of a YouTube video. Rick Astley, never going to give you up. Yes, she Rick rolled recruiters from Atlassian, GitHub, GrubHub, Bolt, scale.ai, Reddit, Airtable, and Wattpad. They all wanted to interview her immediately with these fucking bullet points on her resume. Joel: Clearly, she has cracked the algorithm code of passing the pre-screen. Chad: Oh, it's fucking awesome. Joel: Wow. All right. Well, my first shout out goes to Walmart, something they also probably don't have in Portugal, if I'm guessing. Well, anyway, Walmart is introducing daily sensory friendly hours. I didn't even know this was a thing, across its stores nationwide, which will involve lowering the lights, turning off the radio and replacing TV displays with static images. These hours are designed to accommodate individuals with sensory processing issues such as autism, ADHD, PTSD et cetera. Walmart sensory friendly hours will run from 8 to 10 AM At your local Walmart in the US and also Puerto Rico stores. There is no no end date that's been named. So I think this is a great thing. I didn't, I mean, like, I don't know how this came up or... Chad: Should adopt it for everybody. Joel: I don't feel like you need to have a disorder to enjoy this. I'd love to go to Walmart without the TVs. And if they could get rid of the greeter, that'd be great. That'd be great. Chad: We all because of all of the, you know, all the time on our phones, as you can see on YouTube, I'm holding up my phone. We have so much information coming into us at once. Walmart could be kind of like a getaway from all of that for everybody all the time. They can just get rid of all of that shit. Always. I think it'd be great. Joel: I think this is sexy. SFX: Ai, papi. Chad: So shout out to Twitter who are selling Twitter handles, which I thought was interesting. Joel: It's called X now, Chad. Chad: Going to continue to call it Twitter. How do you know when your business model and company is in the tank? Well, here's a key indicator. Twitter has begun work on a handle marketplace for the purchase of account names left unused by the people who originally registered them. Earlier this year, Twitter began purging defunct accounts from its site and Musk posted that he planned to free up as many. As 1.5 billion usernames soon. It seems interesting, almost like selling domains. Joel: Oh, it's totally like selling domains. And it's also strong arming all the corporations and personalities that have said, I'm not going to buy a blue check. I'm not going to do all that stuff because to me, it's sort of strong arming people like, you could lose your stuff if you don't pay up, if you're not active anymore. If you're, I mean. So to me, it's a play to like strong arm people into paying. But yeah, there are a lot of domains or not domains, but handles that I assume that people would pay big money for. Most of them probably pornographic, nevertheless, would probably pay a lot of money. The dude needs to make some sort of return on his $44 billion. This is one way to do it, I guess. He won't make many friends, but it is one way to to make some money. Maybe not... Chad: It just seems like he keeps... He can't see the burning forest for the flames, for me. It's just like it's crazy. It's like he's driving this business further and further into the ground. It's because to be quite frank for me, this just means that more people can buy names that aren't them and they control. I mean, just the whole validity of why would I give this guy my credit card information? This is another big fuck you. I'm not doing it. There's no way. Joel: This is another thing. I mean, so we both are familiar with dot jobs, right? So when dot jobs came out, you had to sort of apply and they proved it and everything else. There could be a case where any new company startup, new Hollywood darling that Twitter just keeps a wrap on their handle and you got to go submit a request to have the handle. So this could be a thing going forward, like if you're famous or a company or in the public domain, that you'll have to go to Twitter, X for approval of the said handle to get it. This could be a definite whole new business for X going forward. Chad: Yeah, I think it's going to be a business that just runs people away and they'll go to other mediums like TikTok and Threads and who knows? Joel: Well, Elon overload warning, kids. If you thought that was too much, Elon, I've got another shout out for Elon. It may not even matter the handles, Chad. Elon sat down with Britain's prime minister this week on the BBC and talked about AI and he says universal basic income is so 2020, he's talking about universal high income. Here's the soundbite from the interview. Enjoy. Elon Musk: We have for the first time, we will have the first time something that is smarter than the smartest human. And that, I mean, it's hard to say exactly what that moment is, but there will come a point where no job is needed. You can have a job if you want to have a job for sort of personal satisfaction. The AI will be able to do everything. I don't know if that makes people comfortable or uncomfortable. It's hard. When there's new technology, it tends to usually follow an S curve. In this case, we're going to be on the exponential portion of the S curve for a long time. And we have to actually be able to ask for anything and it won't be and we won't have universal basic income. We'll have universal high income. So in some sense, it'll be somewhat of a leveler or an equalizer, because really, I think everyone will have access to this magic genie. SFX: All right, all right, all right. Joel: That's right, baby. We're all getting high incomes, no education, no nothing. Just universal high income. Sounds like a good time, Chad. Chad: It's Wally. Yeah, no, it's a great time. But I mean, until that happens, people love free stuff, so they can go to chadcheese.com/free where you can get your T-shirts, free T-shirts, kids, from JobGet. Beer, you can prospectively win beer. We give one away, not one beer, but one big pack of craft beer left. Joel and I drink the rest of it. We just give you one beer. Joel: You know times are tough when we give away one can of beer every month, everybody. Chad: That's from Aspen Tech Labs. Just know they are sending a big, big thing of craft beer to you. Two fifths of whiskey from Textkernel. And when it's your birthday, you know, baby, it's time for a little rum with our friends over at Plum.io. Yeah. SFX: Did you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: That's right. Another year around the sun for some of our listeners and biggest fans, Chad. It's a short list this week. So, you know, it'll be quick. So Alicia Bichler, Lucas Roscoe, Katie Gentry, John Tehan, Kevin Lowe, Alan Bourne and Laura Martinelli are all celebrating a birthday this week. So shout out to you guys. Have a good time. Chad: Lucas Roscoe, probably one of the most American names I can think of. Joel: Isn't he a senator from Mississippi? Chad: Probably Louisiana. Joel: Vote Lucas Roscoe for congress. Chad: Vote Lucas Roscoe. Now that voting is over, it's time for events, kids. And when we do events, we do it with Shaker Recruitment Marketing. That's right. They fuel our travel. I'm going to be going to TAtech in Europe in London, that is. December 4th through the 6th. I'm going to be emceeing the stage for a few days with Kirstie Kelly. It's a good time. It's going to be really focused heavily on tech in our space. Going to have a lot of tech leaders from our space talking about what's going on and even sir Richard and Queen Beverly are going to be there, so I'll give them your regards, Joel. SFX: Bros and hoes, bros and hoes, I gotta have me and my bros and hoes. Joel: That's not just for them, also FactoryFix powered fantasy football, Chad. That's right. Chad: Oh, that's sexy. Joel: Halfway through the season and here is your leaderboard going into week 10, I believe. Number one, she can't be stopped, she is a juggernaut in fantasy, Michelle Sergeant slaughter at number one still. Followed by Marcy Darth maul, Joe Mason Dixon line, funky cold Medina Perro, jagged little Jill Patterson, Jasper the friendly ghost Spanjaart, Billy Joel Cheeseman, Chad so washed up, Dean Streets Osner, Brent Losi gosi, sorry Lucy goosey or something like that. I made these up at about midnight last night. Dennis Quaid Tupper and kristin urban Dana. Round out the 12 players in fantasy football. That is your leaderboard powered by our friends at FactoryFix. Chad: I beat Michelle Sergeant, the number one team last week by 40 points, four zero. I think she has two losses. Four zero points, 40 points and it didn't even phase her. I mean, she's scored that many points she is still on top. But you know who else is on top? Joel: Who's on top? Chad: Data, baby. Data's on top. If you're a data geek, you gotta check out this new Youtube series that we have. It's happening monthly. Every time the jobs report comes out, the BLS spits out their jobs report, our friends over at LinkUp who have a shit ton of labor market information, we get Toby Dayton who's a CEO over there, we get him on the line and we talk about the jobs report, we talk about landscape, we talk about the economy, those types of things. We put our first one out this week and it caught fire. It caught fire. I was really excited about it. Chad: It caught fire because we go deep, Chad. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: That's right. That's right, we go deep on this one. All right, Chad. A lot of companies in our space reported quarterly earnings this week and it wasn't all that pretty. Here's a quick breakdown. Revenue fell at Indeed and Glassdoor amid uncertain economic conditions and the new pricing model at Indeed that I know you love helped push down paid job ads according to their owner, Recruit Holdings. Indeed's paid job ads fell 50 year over year heading out to DHI group that stock ticker symbol DHX. Home of Dice and ClearanceJobs reported third quarter revenue fell 2.8 year over year. The stock is down a whopping 20 plus percent since reporting. Ouch. Veritone who acquired PandoLogic and Broadbean, plunged over 20%, that's their share price on Wednesday as Craig-Hallum, a Wall Street analyst downgraded the stock to a sell rating after their earnings report. Background check company, Sterling, missed on earnings and revenue estimates. The silver lining perhaps was ZipRecruiter beating on earnings and revenue, of course that's after being down over 30% year to date. Chad, it's ugly out there. Your thoughts. Chad: It's ugly and last thing I want to talk about is Dice, for God's sakes. But Indeed, right? Let's talk about the big guys in the space. Much like Monster, Indeed hasn't evolved their revenue model with innovative products. Monster and Crew Builder didn't evolve and Indeed, a more evolved platform at that time, knocked them both off the mountain. So since Indeed's inception, they have needed to do something different. All they have done is rename the exact same goddamn products that they have so that they can raise prices on them. All that they are doing is taking a search engine and turning it into a job board with mandatory registration for job seekers, right? This is the shit that we were doing in the late '90s other than the you know the performance click piece. I mean, they're starting to look at mandatory registration which is, it was something that even was a no-no back in the late '90s so they haven't evolved and they have actually devolved and only demonstrating to us that this is not a sustainable model. They need to be able to create new products not put lipstick on the fucking pig. Create new products and evolve their model. Chad: This to me is something that you're going to see across the board but when you see a big industry player like this, you understand that hey, that's market validation. You've got to pivot and you've got to do something new quickly. Joel: So there was a time when Monster was a public company, Yahoo, not Yahoo but HotJobs. When the economy was good, these stocks did very well. In any given vacuum, times are good. If you watch the Chad and Cheese Does Data show with Toby, things are improving and getting better so it's kind of curious why these stocks aren't doing well or at least going sideways. They're doing pretty poorly. I think the fact is, people are finding people in different ways. There's, there are disparate ways that people are finding work, finding people to fill jobs because there clearly are jobs that need to be filled that's in the news on a regular basis. Joel: So I have outlined what I call the four horsemen of the apocalypse to the job board or the jobs industry, job posting industry. You ready, Chad? So number one in my four horsemen of the apocalypse for the job board industry, number one is Google and LinkedIn. Google for Jobs, no matter what narrative Indeed or anyone else says, is putting a hurting on the job board industry. I mean, it is a commodity that Google has sort of figured out and we'll talk about that in our next story. But Google is a juggernaut that job boards haven't quite figured out how to leverage in any scale and LinkedIn, let's be honest, is the place where you find people. It's where you source people. They've done a great job, like it or not, of pushing out the competition. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Putting a walled garden around their data and they have done a really good job of doing it and now they have OpenAI thanks to Microsoft's deep pockets to now take that to another level. So the first horseman is LinkedIn and Google. The second horseman is automation. Look, you and I just talked recently about the robots at AWS moving boxes, working in the warehouse. Why would you buy stocks that are job postings to hire people when you see images about Amazon replacing everybody with robots that carry boxes, not to mention driverless cars that are eventually going to come? Look, Wall Street is a forward looking indicator and forward looking, it looks like we are going to need less people. So why would I invest in these companies? The third horseman of the apocalypse is AI. Again, if I am looking at Elon Musk doing an interview with the Prime Minister of Britain, saying that we won't even have jobs in the future. Chad: Universal high income. Joel: Why would I invest in companies if there is no growth prospects for people or even having jobs in the future? And the fourth horseman of the apocalypse is the gig economy. We didn't talk about those stocks. Upwork is over 20% year to date in its share price. Uber is up almost 100% and DoorDash is up 80% year to date. If I am an investor, I see people have options. I see people can do their own thing. People can gig it as a career. So those four horsemen of the apocalypse, Google and LinkedIn, AI, automation and the gig economy spell trouble for ZipRecruiter, Indeed, Glassdoor and others. And I don't see any end to the pain that they are suffering. Chad: Pain, the pain. [laughter] SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Chad: What Indeed has been trying to do is obviously raise prices and everybody at this point is trying to do what marketing has been doing for about 10-15 years, which is the qualified marketing light or MQL. That's what everybody is trying to do. I think that's the next pot of gold. But again, that's going to go away. So automation, I agree 100% on being able to get incredibly targeted. We just talked about in the shout outs where a resume was fooling recruiters. We need to be able to actually have proof positive that these individuals can do the job. Just because they say they can, doesn't mean they can. So for companies like Indeed to just continue to do the exact same thing over and over and over and call it something new, I think the market is starting to understand it's all bullshit. Joel: Well, I mentioned Google in my summary and Google is in the news. Google is in the news. They're making changes to their free service, Google for Jobs, which may impact organic traffic to job postings in favor of sponsored jobs by some accounts. The alterations have been observed in Germany, the Netherlands and parts of the US and they involve reducing the prominence of Google for Jobs in search results. The modifications could lead to a decrease in free traffic to job boards, aggregators, ATS operators, and employers. Some experts believe this is in preparation for the launch of Google job ads, aiming to direct more traffic to paid ads while others think it's intended to enhance the user experience. Chad, you were interviewed for the AIM Group story. I assume you have some thoughts on Google's move on Google for Jobs. Chad: Yeah, so I'm here in Portugal and I'm not seeing any changes. Even when I VPN into the states or even parts of the EU, I haven't seen any changes. So this is obviously still somewhat in beta, maybe A/B testing. But regardless, Alex Tchaikovsky actually did a video which showed the changes that they don't seem like an effort to slow organic traffic personally, although we will see in the numbers as it's rolled out. It seems like a more streamlined approach because Google for Jobs is ugly as fuck in the first place, right? So them to try to streamline it, to make it look better, more aesthetically pleasing, I think is incredibly smart. Plus, we're not 100% sure just how they're going to roll out paid ads. We think we know, but we really don't know yet. So personally, I see the changes, maybe the A/B testing, no matter whether it means that they're spending time to try to figure out whether these changes, these tests are better for job seekers and or the actual ads. When they start rolling out paid ads, I think we're really going to understand how this looks, feels, and there's going to be a lot of adjustments that are made. And with the Indeed and Glassdoor numbers down, it will be incredibly interesting to see how Google paid ads impact the entire market. Joel: Yeah. I mean, the pay-per-click thing is going to happen. I think we've been predicting that for like three or four prediction shows. It's going to happen. Look, we talked about stock price. Google has been sort of under pressure to monetize. They're sort of getting AI a little bit weird and investors are asking questions. An easy billion dollars is getting into this job posting space in a big way and making Indeed, Glassdoor, ZipRecruiter all pay a nice little tax to get their jobs on Google because they're all going to pay that tax, just like all the job boards and niche sites back in the day had to pay Indeed a tax to get their jobs on Indeed. The monetization thing is definitely going to happen. Google's really good about looking at user behavior, what people do, streamlining stuff. They cut out stuff that people aren't using. So the little tabs on the top, Google probably knows people aren't using those. So let's get rid of them. I think part of the commentary was that, oh, they've gotten rid of bookmarks and they've gotten rid of the email alerts. Well, Google might know that no one uses those. Such a small percentage get job alerts that why even have them. And frankly, I think we have overestimated the value of email alerts for job postings. Joel: I remember back in the day where I was like, everyone's always looking for a job. They want to get that email every day about all the new jobs. Well, it turns out they're not that excited about a new life insurance sales position or being a state farm agent every day. People just tune that shit out and we've gotten a lot better at filtering out stuff. So Google may just know like, this is not that important. Let's get rid of it. It's getting people away from what we want them to do in the process. The other thing is it shows that Google cares. Google wants to make this work. Google isn't just throwing spaghetti at the wall and like, oh, maybe this will happen. This is 2007, I think they launched this. So this is over five years that they've been doing this. It works. They clearly are on board with job postings. Now they're going to monetize this thing. They care. That's what this move tells me about what Google did. Then the last thing is Google tests a lot of stuff. Certainly search results in my old SEO days, there would be, oh my God, in the wild, Google has different search results. Or, oh my God, they're putting a new story in the regular search results. Or, oh my God, they put in a YouTube video. Google tests this stuff to see how people respond to it. Do people use it? Joel: So I wouldn't necessarily say this is gospel that this is what Google's going to do. They're probably in the testing phase. They may go back to certain things. They'll look at user activity. Don't get too excited that this is the end all of what Google for jobs is going to be. It may just be a test that they're running in a few countries and they may revert back to other stuff that they've done before. Chad: Yeah, I think it was 2017, not 2007 for Google for jobs. Joel: '17 is what I meant. It's too early, Chad. The coffee's wearing off. [laughter] The coffee's wearing off. Chad: The thing that is going to be interesting is that Indeed won the SEO battle early on because it was easy. They gave Google exactly what they wanted. I know that as we tried to fight Indeed with dot jobs and launching 40,000 domains of pure corporate content against their single site of content. Google was looking for easy. There are some other things there too. The big question is going to be for me is that, can Indeed come back in like they did in the early days and find a way to game the system? Ones that Google likes and which will give them a rise in the search engine rankings, in the Google for Jobs search engine rankings. We will see. Hopefully, we will finally get to see corporate jobs rise organically because that is the source of truth. That is where the job starts. That's where it ends. There are no purveyors at that point. It's exactly what it is. We're going to see. There's still a lot to be shaken out here. Joel: It is really interesting. I occasionally just look at search results just to see what's what and who's there. Maybe I didn't notice. It's just kind of a curiosity for me. I will say that corporate jobs are creeping up into higher rankings. Part of that might be... Chad: Time, time in history? Joel: All the niche boards are gone. That might be part of what this is. But these corporate sites that have been around since the dawn of the internet, they're starting to figure out optimization, the Targets of the world, the Walmarts, the UPSs. The big brands that we know are starting to creep up in some of these results. And I think they're creeping into the Google for Jobs stuff. Anyway, you're right. I think ultimately, Indeed, Glassdoor, they're all going to have to pay. They're already paying anyway to be above the Google for Jobs listings. That's not cheap. They're pricing themselves out a lot of this. I haven't seen an Indeed commercial in I don't know how long, so they're clearly shifting money. Or a ZipRecruiter ad. Now, I know I don't live in a big metro area, but those ads used to be really common and they're not anymore. Take that for what it's worth, but they're going to have to pay Google if they want to be found on Google. Otherwise, they're going to keep paying a lot of money on ads, which they don't want to do either. Chad: Yeah. I think domains have had the time and trust, which is one of the things that have been like the recipe or the biggest ingredients for the recipe of good SEO is time and trust. Do they trust the domain? How much time? How much history is within the domain? Hopefully, we will see that shift because again, in the early Google days, they really had nothing to balance out against. Now, I think they know better, but we shall see. Who knows? They can still fuck this up. Joel: The wild card is employers/ATSs need to make it a lot easier to apply to jobs because I think users know if I go to XYZ Inc., I got to go through 45 minutes of bullshit, apply to a job. If I go to Indeed or LinkedIn, they already have my profile, I can easily apply. Yeah, so until the corporation, if the corporation's figured it out and their ATS is figured out, then it's probably game over from an organic search result, but it still is a pain in the ass to apply to most jobs. Chad: We shall see. Joel: I need coffee. Everybody, listen to our sponsors. There is no show without them. We'll be right back. All right, Chad, can I interest you in some return to office news? Chad: Oh my God, so many fights. Joel: And some discrimination, a dash of discrimination. Yeah, I know this is one of your favorites. All right, the battle over the return to office between workers and employers is intensifying as more workers are filing charges of disability discrimination to federal and state agencies. A growing portion of these charges is related to mental health conditions like anxiety, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder. The increase in such charges is in part driven by employers requiring employees to return to the workplace and denying some of their requests for accommodations. The return to office policy has become a contentious issue in workforce management with potential discrimination claims arising from denying accommodation requests related to mental health diagnoses. Chad, your thoughts. Chad: So, we actually talked about this a couple of weeks ago and this article came out in the Wall Street Journal like the very next day. So I said it then, I'm going to say it again, the Jamie Dimons, the David Solomons of the world, they just don't give a flying fuck about diversity, equity, and inclusion. So this is really not, this is going to fall on deaf ears to the likes of them. But I believe there are many CEOs that really do care and they want to understand the consequences of jamming everyone back into fucking cubicles, especially after we're seeing historic record lows of unemployment for people with disabilities and even women who can get back to full-time work because they have the autonomy to work from home. Earlier this week, I actually spoke with a CEO that specifically wanted to talk to me about this topic. He didn't even think about the impact of forcing people back into cubicles that would have on his workforce. And then we talked a little bit about the article where Brittany Lenhart, she was actually a face that you could put to it. Not to mention, it's very scary because then these four letters come into play. The EEOC and EEOC discrimination cases around this topic are exploding. Chad: In September, the EEOC sued a Georgia employer for declining to allow a digital marketing manager with anxiety and other mental health disorders to work remotely three days a week. The company fired the employee soon after she requested the accommodation. We've become so used to a culture of control that it's hard for leadership to understand that you can actually manage and lead people from afar. And not everybody can do that. So it's going to take special managers. Not every company can do it. Not every company is not going to be able to do it, especially if they're very sales-focused and they need to have that control, let's say. But there are many companies that are out there that I think that will be able to get an amazing talent that is remote and even hybrid talent that are going to be just fleeing away from companies like this. Joel: The harsh reality is most employers, they want you to show up, shut up, and buck up. Most of them are from a generation like us where the mentality is like, rub some dirt on it and fucking get back out there. Mental health is going to be a tough one. Look, if I'm hearing impaired, I'm visually impaired, I've been blind my whole life, that's easy to prove. That's visible to everyone. That is a much cleaner decision or debate to have. When you throw mental health in it, it's a really gray area right now. My guess is, companies don't want to deal with it. That's why your case study was fired. To go to court on that, to go EEOC on that, proving that is tougher, I guess, I would guess, than I have a hearing disability or I have a disability that is sort of culturally known, acceptable as a disability. There's a certain mentality of people in America, certainly, that will not embrace mental health issues as a thing to be accommodated by employers. The EEOC, we have to have some really strict rules, some really clear rules around what is mental health, what is a disability, is it a doctor's note, is it something more clinical? I don't know. This is more your lane than mine. Until we start treating mental health disabilities like we do hearing, visual, mobility, et cetera, this is going to be a really gray area and most companies aren't going to be really open to addressing the issues of mental health with workers. Chad: Instead of just focusing on, well, are they really disabled? Other than them getting accommodations and needing accommodations, then we give them that, but who cares? The person, the human, they're doing a job. Moms who are working from home, that's not a disability. Being a mom is not a disability, but guess what? We're treating them like they have a disability because they're being mommy-tracked because they have to be there to pick the kids up or they have to do X, Y or Z. It's total bullshit. We need to understand that the great talent is out there and being able to provide them a little autonomy and treat them like fucking adults is where we need to be, whether it's disability, diversity, gender, doesn't matter. That's where our head needs to be. A lot of these discussions really tend to focus on one specific area. Fuck all of that. We need to focus on performance. Joel: Yeah. One of the great tragedies of the return to office is the folks who were super happy and productive and content doing their job from home and taking care of kids, they're not dealing with exterior issues, those people are so screwed in this return to office trend that's happening. It's unfortunate. Chad: And again, whether you have a disability or not, it doesn't matter. Just the human themselves, can they perform? Joel: Well, from kind of a bummer conversation, let's talk about some winning. SFX: Perhaps winning. [laughter] Joel: All right. Labor continues their winning ways. We've talked about the UAW and the big three. Toyota Motors said this past week that it is raising the wages of non-union US factory workers just days after the UAW union won a major win against that big three. Members at the General Dynamics plants in Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania have voted to ratify a new tentative agreement for salary increases. How's this for a little worker leverage, Chad? American Airlines is now offering $250,000 cash bonuses to poach FedEx and UPS pilots to join their ranks. So much winning, Chad. I can't stand it. SFX: Perhaps winning. Joel: What are your thoughts? Chad: [laughter] So I watched an interview with Shawn Fain, the head of the UAW this week, and he mentioned this as the UAW bump, which I think is pretty cool because, again, GM is bumping non-union wages. Not to mention, they're doing a company match increase from 4-6% on 401K plans, right? Toyota 9% wage bump, General Dynamics, UAW, Stellantis, they're actually building new plants in Illinois, right? So as we were talking about this months ago, it was like, well, shit, they're just going to move everything away. Well, the UAW is like, no, nothing's getting done. We're doing more here in America. And from an optics standpoint, nobody has gotten this done right over the past 40 years. Shawn Fain and the UAW have done it. Not only are we seeing wage gross, but they're also planning, again, on building more in the US. So I'll say it again. I love this. I love this. As CEOs received 1500% increases while American workers turned in to the working poor with 18% increases that, for the most part, was less than inflation in many parts of the United States. While guys like Milton Freeman and now Josh Berson and Johnny Taylor are a proxy mouthpiece for the rich, we finally have a mouthpiece. We have a mouthpiece for the people who are doing the work on the front line. So these moves are a collective middle finger to those assholes saying, fuck you, I deserve more. Joel: Yeah. Shawn Fain has made the rounds on TV. You being in Portugal maybe don't get as much as we do, but he is a popular guy on the news shows. And his new statement is, the next time we do this, it won't be the big three, it'll be the big five or six, which is a shot across the bowel of Toyota, Honda, the German car company, and... Chad: Tesla. Joel: Maybe most importantly, Tesla. And those companies are going to have to either you know, get ahead of this, raise salaries now. I imagine at some point Tesla is going to use their stock leverage to keep workers happy or keep them from striking or unionizing. Salary increases will probably be part of that, but they're going to make the stock options really juicy, I think, on Tesla workers. Also being in Europe, you probably don't get quite the attention to the Republican debate that happened this week. And let's say anti-China sentiment and anti-producing things outside of the US and our allies is a very popular topic amongst the Republican candidates. And it is with Joe Biden who... Chad: It's popular with everybody. Joel: Had the great photo op with UAW. Like look, the sentiment, the rhetoric for the next year is going to be America, America, America, China bad, rest of the world bad, we need to build stuff here. The Intel chip, you and I, hearts are close to Ohio. Ohio is going to benefit greatly from this move, the Intel plan in Columbus. Yes, workers are going to win for the next decade because industry, production, everything is coming back to our shores. Globalization is like so last decade. The airline thing is really interesting to me. We can't just pull pilots out of the sky like we can probably auto workers. So these certain degrees and certain professions are going to be super hot. I have a 17-year-old at home. He'll hear about this 'cause I'll talk about it. You don't think a lot of kids now are going to want to go to flight school knowing that they're getting quarter of a million dollar bonuses for coming to work there. So really great time to be in labor. Capital is going to have to kind of suck it up and figure stuff out. Automation will be part of that. But anyway, let's enjoy the moment. Workers are winning. And maybe the biggest win is we get to play Charlie Sheen. SFX: Perhaps winning. Joel: We'll be right back. Chad, the Russians have finally gone too far. [laughter] A Russian doctor claimed in a TikTok video this week that oral sex poses a greater risk of causing throat cancer than smoking or drinking alcohol. Chad: Bastard. Joel: To support the argument, the CDC notes that HPV can be transmitted during oral sex with men being more likely to develop cancer from the disease while women are more likely to carry the virus. What's more, Michael Douglas, yeah, Gordon Gekko, previously claimed that oral sex caused his throat cancer. Chad, this is why we can't have nice things. What are your thoughts? Chad: Everything kills us. We're all here on this planet for a short amount of time. Do the things that make you happy, just as long as they're not illegal. Come enjoy some sunny shores somewhere, whether it's on the US, it's in France, it's in Italy. It doesn't matter. You get one of these, kids. Enjoy every single bit of it. And if it has to do, some of it has to do with some oral sex, have at it. Please enjoy yourself. Joel: Party at Casa de Sowash, everybody. SFX: What are you doing, stepbro? [laughter] Joel: Okay. So, Chad, you and I are proud Gen Xers. You and I grew up with sex is going to kill you because of AIDS. Drugs are going to kill you. Remember this is your brain on drugs, the frying egg. Smoking obviously is going to kill you. How many ads of throatless people and lung, black lungs do we see? Drunkenness is going to kill you. Remember, mothers against drunk driving. Everyone's going to die from drinking, sex. Everything fun is going to kill you. What's next? Listening to podcasts are going to kill you? [laughter] SFX: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Joel: But like, throwing oral sex will kill you is not going to move the needle for Gen X. And I doubt that it's going to do much for the millennials or the Zs. Chad: No. Joel: And the boomers really don't give a fuck at this point. So look, kids, like Chad said, we're looking at Biden versus Trump 2.0. We're looking at World War III. And more than anything, we're looking at more annoying pictures of Euro Chad enjoying his best life. We can all use a little more oral sex. We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

King Kong vs. Godzilla. Rocky vs. Apollo Creed. Democrat vs. Republican. People love a good showdown, and the world of work is no different. This week's show highlights the trending conflicts between Google against OpenAI, Deel against Rippling, RTO against WFH, Labor against Capital ... and most importantly, Elon against Everybody. Beyond that, the boys are talkin' layoffs at Beamery, Josh Bersin's Galileo™, and Twitter ... er, X's new job search design. With Thanksgiving in America right around the corner, consider this week's show a solid appetizer for what's sure to be an overrated meal of dry turkey, runny potatoes, and undercooked stuffing. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. When it comes to females, Cosmo ain't got nothing to do with our selection. What's up kids? You are listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Factory of Sadness Cheeseman. Chad: Chad, it's Friendsgiving time. Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, deal is kind of wait for it a big deal. Poaching gone wild in Silicon Valley and unions just keep winning. Chad: Oops. Winning. Joel: Let's do this. Chad: Dude. Joel: What's up man? I don't know if you're aware of this in Europe, but it's Thanksgiving next week. Chad: Oh, yes. Of course. No we actually had Friendsgiving last night and, for all of you who don't know what Friendsgiving is, remember, that, you don't always have to go to a family's house because sometimes that's a pain in the ass. You can just go have Thanksgiving with friends. But during the pandemic, we couldn't get out and do Thanksgiving, right? So we did a Friendsgiving with Julie's team and it was virtual. And Amanda, who runs sales, her husband is a chef. So Chef Gabe, who lives in Washington State and is also a fishmonger, picks and packs fresh fish and seafood in dry ice along with veggies, risotto, and a great bottle of wine, and gets those packages out to everyone on Julie's staff overnight. Chad: Then, just like a cooking show, Gabe teaches us all how to cook the meal together via Microsoft Teams. And last night, he literally had a stove top camera, like from the top so you could see the whole stove top. And then you also had a Chef Gabe cam, and he taught us how to cook a wonderful meal, a wonderful, wonderful meal. And this to me is just another way that we can demonstrate how if you are remote, you can be together. You can have a great time. And thanks to Amanda and Gabe for once again, creating an amazing night with fabulous food for the team at Disability Solutions. That was a blast. [applause] Joel: So basically you had Chef Gabe from the Food Network, showing you how to cook fresh seafood for Thanksgiving or Friendsgiving. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Whatever, you were calling it. So I'm guessing there was no turkey dressing and mashed potatoes... Chad: No. Joel: On the menu. Chad: That'll be happening during Thanksgiving though, so we can get a best of both worlds. Joel: Yeah. I'm shaking it up this year. The wife is going to New York City for the Macy's Day Parade with her sister and mother. Chad: Okay. Joel: So it's me, my 84 year old dad, my six year old son and maybe an appearance from my 17 year old son. Chad: Oh, dude. Joel: You know how that works with teenagers. But we're gonna do barbecue. We're gonna do, there's a barbecue place in town. We're gonna get some rib. Chad: I love it. Joel: Some brisket. That's gonna be our Thanksgiving. Chad: I love it. Joel: We're gonna mix it up. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I mean, Thanksgiving dinner is pretty overrated. In my mind, turkey is a pain in the ass. I mean, stuffings can be good or bad. Chad: It takes forever. Joel: Mashed potato. Yeah. It takes forever. Like by the end of it, the wife is pissed off. Everyone cooking is mad, like the kids won't eat. The kids just eat the roll, right? Chad: Yes. Joel: You put all this work in for the kid to eat a roll, it's just not good. So football, pajamas and barbecue is gonna be my... Chad: It sounds like a blast. Well, hopefully all you listeners out there are either having Friendsgiving and/or a traditional Thanksgiving as well. And if you're not in the US hell, you can still have one. I mean, we were in London last year, and we had Thanksgiving in London. They actually had a menu that had Thanksgiving meal on it. So just go enjoy it, whether it's American holiday or not, go have a good meal and enjoy yourself. Joel: Yep. And by the way, we'll be airing our Jive Turkeys episode next year in lieu of the weekly show, which is one of the more... Chad: Next week. Yes. Joel: Fun episodes, I think. We're getting into like Naughty and Nice, Jive Turkeys, Predictions. Chad: Oh, it is the fun part. Joel: Like, this is our time of the year where we get to review and look at the past year... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Fun time of the year. Chad: So that'll be fun. But let's get into stuff... SFX: Shout out. Joel: That's happening today. You got a shout out for me? Chad: Twitter is hiring platform. That's my shout out baby. So let's make a deal real quick. I will start calling Twitter X when they actually start using the x.com domain. Because it's still on Twitter, right? So it's still Twitter. Joel: That is true. Chad: You go, yeah. You go to X and it's fucking Twitter. Okay. So that sounds fair. Right? But according to Adrian Carbone, who is the, who actually I guess a product designer at Twitter and working on the hiring platform over there, they have just unveiled how they are going to deliver jobs on Twitter. Can I get a drum roll? Can you get a drum roll out there? Joel: Oh, we do baby. Chad: There it is. There it is. It's Job Search. That's right. It's just basically they're gonna have a Job Search on Twitter. That's right cool kids. Driving innovation through 1990s Basic Job Search functionality. How many times have we seen this go wrong? How, and I mean, hey, let's just slap a Job Search on there. Put a tab there that says jobs. And it just, it dies. Joel: They should just partner with SimplyHired, to backfill their Job Search. MySpace back in '06 or whenever it was. Chad: Back in the day. Back in the day. But if you... Joel: Back in the day. Chad: Want to try out the search, Adrian... Joel: Yeah. Chad: Once again Carbone, go check him out on Twitter. And he said, if you're interested on the early access in kicking the tires, go ahead and DM him. So I did. And I said, put your job search where your mouth is and let's take a look at this thing. So let's see. See if he responds. I am very doubtful that he does. Joel: Oh, I can't wait. I cant wait for your review of Twitter's new Job Search. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Chad: I don't see it happening. Joel: All right, Chad. Well, I have a triple threat down under shout out for you. So this is including New Zealand and Australia and you know how much Australia in equal parts scares the shit out of me and fascinates me. So here we go. So New Zealand McDonald's, they've apparently launched the worst menu item since the McDLT. Do you remember the McDLT, Chad? You had the hot side hot, the cool side cool. Chad: Cool side cool. Yeah. Joel: Little known fact about me. I worked at McDonald's for about a minute and I was the McDLT guy, so I was making McDLTs back in the '80s. Chad: No wonder they failed. Joel: Anyway, their law... No, that's true. And George Costanza was their pitchman on the commercial. So they're launching, get this, the McSalad burger. Now, when I read this, I thought, oh, there's probably an impossible burger on it. It's just, it's a vegetarian thing. No, no, no, no, no. It's got tomato, shredded lettuce, slivered onions, American cheese. At least they got that part right. Two pickles, peppery chicken sauce on a toasted sesame seed bun. So it's basically a salad. Chad: On a bun. Joel: On a couple of buns for that. Yeah, no impossible burger, nothing with parents on this thing, just veggies on a bun. Okay. So there's more from down under. It gets better than that. Okay. So I'm reading headlines last week, and I read the following headline, "World's most dangerous bird emerges from ocean, stunning onlookers." And I said to myself, it's gotta be Australia. And sure enough, I opened the story and it's in Australia. So the world's deadliest bird doesn't come out of a tree, doesn't come out of like the forest or some shit. It comes out of the ocean in Australia. That's how crazy this continent is. This country continent is nuts. Anyway. So, my triple hat trick here for Australia, this is great. So on social media, there's a show called Love Island, Australia Version. I guess there's a version in every country, but I got a soundbite for you. You haven't heard this? Chad: No. Joel: I didn't play it for you in the green room. So you'll be with everyone else that hasn't heard this. Check out this soundbite from Love Island, Australia. [video playback] [laughter] Joel: And that is... Chad: Humans. Joel: My down under triple threat. Chad: Oh Jesus. Joel: Shout out. Chad: Oh my God. Joel: Maybe when you're on the bottom of the earth... Chad: Oh my God. Joel: It does look that much bigger. I don't know. Chad: When we are getting dumber as species, the human race is getting dumber as a species. Let's just, I mean, we've got really, really smart people. And then we've got the really, really dumb people. And there's like, the division is just getting so much bigger. It's ridiculous. Joel: Yeah. Australia is the Florida of the Southern hemisphere. I'm convinced. Chad: I'm going to one up you with this one. Then when we talk about shock factor, we're going to give a shout out to the HR nightmare of the week. The following HR nightmare is brought to you by Solera, a global leader in vehicle life cycle management. A video has been circulating of a mass layoff via zoom. Not only is a zoom layoff incredibly impersonal, obviously, but you choose not to give a shit when you have a mass layoff, then you don't mute the fucking mics. The mics weren't muted and all hell breaks loose. Plus someone records it and guess what? It finds its way to the socials. Go ahead and take a listen. Joel: And it finds it's way on The Chad and Cheese podcast. [video playback] Joel: Poor David, man. Chad: David might be the problem though. She might just be calling it out. Joel: Oh my God. And the HR, the HR lady who was on the call was just gobsmacked. Chad: Nothing she could do. Joel: No clue how to react to any of this. And it was contagious. Everyone starts going in. Like some of the sound wasn't good enough to put on the show, but man... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Ouch, Ouch. Chad: And they, and Solera currently has 203 jobs open. So if you are looking for a job, I would tread lightly. If you look at a Solera job, if that pops up, you just might want to go ahead and click no. Joel: Yeah, job at Solera. All right, Chad. The shout outs. It's going to get better. Believe it or not. Chad: Okay. Good. Good. Joel: Your boy's has done it again. That's right. Josh Bersin has partnered with Sana to power "the world's first expert assistant for HR". Chad: Oh my God. Joel: Brought to you by The Josh Bersin Company. It's called Galileo and it's already got a trademark on it. So don't even try to use it for anything... Chad: Galileo. Joel: Devious. It's basically ChatGPT, but only using Bersin's content. Pretty high on his own supply. Bersin said in the release, "This paradigm shattering offering will change the way companies run their HR organization and manage their people, enabling any professional to operate like a world-class expert in a short period of time." Was Josh not hugged very much as a child? I'm starting to think that he wasn't. How long before this egomaniac clones himself and boxes himself up to be your company's robo HR manager and puts you out of a job. Shout out to Galileo, but don't forget the trademark TM at the end. Chad: Just so we need more Android, like old white dudes in HR. That'll change everything. And you know what will change something, getting free stuff. That always change, and it changes my mood when something comes to the door... Joel: Oh yes. Chad: And I've got some free stuff, you can get some t-shirts, the Chad and Cheese t-shirts, the newest one, which is sponsored by JobGet, you can get a big pack of craft beer by Aspen tech labs. You know the guys who do the job sites and the spidering and all that cool tech shit. Whiskey by Textkernel, two bottles of whiskey by Textkernel. And if it is your birthday, you could possibly win some rum from plum.io. SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? Chad: Oh yeah. Chad: I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: That's right, Chad, another trip around the sun. And since we're not broadcasting next week, I'm going to just finish out the month of November with birthdays. So we got Jim Lowe, Randall Emery Emory, Eva Zils. Betsy, Chuck Norris, Robert St. Jacques, Karen Hewell, Michelle Palermo, Sean Lutians... Chad: Lutians. Joel: Valerie Doyle. John Chirio, not Chirio, Wendy Dod, Jason Stevens, Tony Lee, Matt Charny, Kevin Wheeler, and last but not least, Chad, near and dear to your heart, Kennedy Cook is celebrating a birthday, so... SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Happy birthday, everybody. What'd you get her? Chad: Kennedy turns 24. She's living in Budapest. She's in the UK this week. What the fuck did she do? You need to get... She's fine. She's fine. No, happy birthday Kennedy. Way to go out there, kick ass, be a girl boss, and can't wait to see you soon. We're gonna see her... She's actually gonna come to Madeira, the island of Madeira... Joel: Nice. Chad: For new year. Yeah, she doesn't have a bad life, that kid. Joel: She's doing all right. I think she's gonna be fine. Chad: She's good. Joel: I think she's gonna be gonna be fine. Almost as fine Chad, as our new show. If you haven't tuned into The Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Data with Toby Dayton of Linkup, that comes at you every month, only on YouTube. Go to youtube.com/@chadcheese. We called it this month. We called it Goldilocks. Things are back. You look at the markets, the CPI numbers, your 401K is looking a lot better since we did the show. I'm not taking credit for it. Chad: Thank God for us, yeah. Joel: But some of the data was right on this month, and every month we're gonna look at that. I think it's gonna be great information, but check that out. Only on YouTube, just like Chad is only gonna be in England next month on our travel schedule. Tell us about that, Chad. Chad: That's right. December 4th through the 6th, gonna be at TAtech Europe in London. Kirsty Kelly and I will emceeing the show. Alex Tchaikovsky is gonna be presenting his latest findings on Google for Jobs. He's always coming up with shit around Google for Jobs. Hung Lee's gonna be performing a Brainfood live session. Who knows what that means, but it should be a blast. Adam Gordon's gonna be there. Matt, that British guy, Alder, my lovely wife, Julie Sowash, Andrea Wade, the smart people just keep coming. That's all I'm saying. If you live in London and you don't already have a ticket, go to chadcheese.com/events and register. Even if you're outside of London, take the train in, take the day off. Take a couple of days off. Take the train in, come see us. Joel: Not to mention porn stars. Someone said Hang Lee everybody. SFX: What are doing step bro? Joel: And speaking of that, let's talk a little... Oh yeah, that's right. Week 10 is in the books. Heading into week 11, we got Fantasy Football with Chad and Cheese, powered by our friends at FactoryFix. Here's your leaderboard Chad. Michelle Sargent is outta the number one spot, replaced by Marcy Project Small. Michelle Sergeant Slaughter is in second place, followed by Dina Perro Fopyros, Joe Mixon Dixon, Chad Smith Sowash, Jagged Little Jill, Pat Patterson, Jimmy Dean Ossner, Jasper Spic and Spaniard, Brent. I'm Brent. I'm a lousy baby so why don't you kill me? Number 10 is Joel Rifkin Cheeseman. Number 11, Dennis Tupperware. And the caboose crisscross. Kristen Aribon. Y'all are gonna make a jump. Jump follows out the 10 on fantasy football, everybody. [music] Joel: Which brings us to a little bit of... SFX: Layoffs. Chad: Layoffs. Joel: That's right, Chad. We got some layoffs. Well, it's been quite a car crash this year for the folks at Beamery, Chad. A little history. In December of last year, Beamery became a unicorn after raising a series D at $50 million. Then a month later, they laid off 12% of their staff. That's just a month later... SFX: Wow. Dope. Joel: Then in March of this year, again, Josh Bersin alert, your boy wrote a post entitled "HR GPT arriving now. Beamery starts the generative AI revolution in HR." Yeah. Maybe not Josh, maybe not. Word is, this week, another round of layoffs went down, with some rumors, putting the number at 35%. I asked around from one former employee who preferred to remain anonymous, of course, "Beamery is not doing well. Used to work there. They did big layoffs in '22. Then a bunch of us left at the end of the year. They just dropped their west VP, east VP, central VP left, head of strategic sales, left." Chad: Shit. Joel: "Director of engineering, left, sales consulting director, left. 80% of their AEs have left. Yes, it's that bad." I asked if it was the business or the leadership, and my source answered, "Both." [laughter] Another source said, "They plan to eliminate 25% of the global workforce in an effort to reduce costs by 35%. Sales have been terrible all year, so no big surprises from the news." That's Beamery. But from a big picture perspective, big tech continues to cut headcount. It was reported the likes of Google, Amazon, Zillow, and Snap will continue to downsize heading into '24. Analysts say it's most likely connected to an uncertain economic outlook. Snap, co-founder and CEO Evan Spiegel is apparently pushing a, "Hardcore work culture". By the way, Chad, any thoughts on Beamery or big tech layoffs? Chad: Yeah. I think we saw this ship sinking, the Beamery ship sinking. We've been talking about it for a while. They, again, and you say it all the time, they're, you can take too much money, and they did take too much money because it forces you to spread the TAM. It forces you to do a lot of things that you wouldn't regularly do. And unfortunately, when you take the kinda cash that they took, it doesn't always work out well. But we're gonna talk about Google more here in a few minutes, in their new designs, as I believe that they're shifting talent needs towards sexy, large language models, Bard and Gemini. Chad: Ian Sherr, a tech reporter and analyst pointed out that some of the layoffs aren't always related to economic issues. Companies may have a division or products that are no longer viable. So they decide to cut those jobs, or to my point, they're ramping up hiring in different areas. We saw this with not Google for Jobs, but all the other Google platforms that they had on TA. They had an applicant tracking system, they were doing these different APIs, and then they cut all of that shit because they needed more resources over in Cloud. This kind of thing is gonna happen, especially when you are out flanked, and they were by OpenAI and ChatGPT. So a lot of this doesn't surprise me. There's gonna be some ramping up of hiring in some other areas. Joel: I have nothing to add except for the fact that I was critical of Beamery, I think a year or so ago. And our buddy Matt Adam Gordon. SFX: Welcome to [laughter] 'All Things Scottish our slogan is, 'If it's no Scottish, it's crap.' Joel: Mr. Gordon gave me a hard time about my criticism of Beamery. Chad: Really? Joel: Well, it looks like I might be getting the last lap on the Beamery question. Adam, still love you though, still love you though. [music] Chad: TOPICS. Joel: All right, let's get into it. Here's a headline for you, Chad. OpenAI's New Weapon in Talent War with Google, $10 million pay packages. "The recruiting fight between OpenAI and Google is growing fiercer as OpenAI proceeds with an employee share sale that would nearly triple the startups valuation to more than $80 billion. Its recruiters are courting top artificial intelligent employees at Google with millions of dollars and a message. Join us now to lock in a stock package at the current valuation of $27 billion in benefit from the impending increase. As part of their pitch OpenAI recruiters have claimed researchers would have regular access to computing resources, including the specialized chips staff rely on to run experiments and develop new techniques for AI models according to people with knowledge of the claims." Chad, we talked about American Airlines poaching UPS pilots to the tune of $250,000. Chad: Champ change. Joel: But this takes poaching to a whole new level. What are your thoughts? Chad: Put your money where your AI is baby. So a quote from the article in October, "OpenAI leased nearly half a million square feet of office space from Uber in San Francisco. However, some employees have moved in the opposite direction from OpenAI to Google, indicating that the talent wars are just warming up." We're going to see, especially these huge Titans when it comes to technology, they're gonna be fighting over the just top talent. If you've seen the Blackberry movie, if you haven't, you should watch it. This is something that is really interesting because you see Blackberry at one time, going after talent with these huge $10 million packages. Right? The only difference was they were postdating the stock. Joel: They broke the law. Chad: Yeah, they broke the law. [laughter] Chad: Big difference there. But still, I mean... Joel: Damn Canadians. Chad: It's one of those things. This isn't something that's new, right? You start to pull in big talent because you wanna change the world. There are so many people in the world that can actually help you do that. And I'll give you a quote from the movie, he said, "I thought we had all the best engineers in the world here at Blackberry." He was like, "No, I said, we had all the best engineers here in Canada." SFX: Take off, Lee, we're doing our movie. Don't wreck our show you hoser. Chad: These guys are going everywhere. Joel: Gotta love a good Blackberry reference. So if you were on the fence about AI being the future, well. Chad: Wake up. Joel: Everything this might make you commit to the fact that it is the future. Look, do you think back in the early 2000s, Google wasn't poaching techies from Microsoft, Oracle and whoever else with the promise of stock riches? The difference is Google didn't necessarily break the law, or didn't break the law like Blackberry did. Now they're getting a taste of their own medicine, Frankly. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Look, this is some Sun Tzu shit. [laughter] Joel: When your enemy is... When you're fighting Goliath you gotta be quicker. You gotta have a faster stone coming outta your gun or whatever the analogy is. But this is how the game works. And applause to OpenAI for playing the game. On a side note, AI giveth and AI taketh away. There was a story in the Financial Times this week about how much generative AI has impacted freelance workers in the content creation space. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Let's just say the picture showed a cliff dive in terms of revenues and opportunities for people in the gig economy to find that work. So it works both ways. I have kids on the cusp of college, and I'm doing my best to make sure they don't get AI'ed out of existence. [laughter] Making sure they take the right roads. So the winners will win big time. And it looks like the losers might lose an equal measure. But this shit's just starting to heat up. Wait till Facebook gets into it, wait till Amazon, wait till China starts poking around. Europe could get involved, this shit's just starting and a lot of people are gonna get really, really rich. It reminds me a little bit of the '90s and the rush for developers and people who could code. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And be webmasters. I remember visiting the headquarters of a company in San Francisco, and there was a nice Porsche 959 in the lobby. Chad: Lord Jesus! Joel: That when people would come in for interviews, they would see this and be like, this could be yours if you just joined the company today and last for 90, whatever it was last for a year, you get a free Porsche. So that's the kind of crazy shit that we're gonna see going forward. And I'm here for it, baby, I'm here for it. Chad: Very boiler room. Yes and I mean, if the kids are good with their hands, plumbers, carpenters, HVACs. Yes, I don't know what to do with my hands. [laughter] If they do know what to do with their hands, then guess what? They're still gonna be jobs that are out there that are going to be AI proof. Good luck to all the rest of them. And hopefully... Joel: That's right. Chad: They don't come after podcasts anytime soon. [laughter] Joel: Like Elon says, the laptop class is living in la-la land. SFX: La escalated quickly. Chad: Fuck Elon. [laughter] Joel: All right. Well, from one big Deel to another Deel, that's D-E-E-L, last valued at $12 billion, has hit $400 million in annual recurring revenue, a senior sales director at the startup said last month, up from a pace of $295 million in January, according to a story in the information this week. In case you missed it, Deel reached $295 million in annual recurring revenue by the end of 2022. So that's less than a year that they've had the increase. The company's co-founder and CEO told TechCrunch at the time, and that was up 417.5% from $57 million in ARR achieved at the end of 2021. Joel: So we're doing the math here, 57, 295, 400. Deel says it has been profitable since September of last year, and they claim a profit margin of 85%. They claim over 15,000 customers, including Nike, Subway, Reebok, Forever 21, one of my favorite places to shop, Shopify, Dropbox, and Klarna. [laughter] The information highlighted a growing rivalry between Deel and Rippling. Chad, you know what's coming. Big Deel, little Deel, or no Deel? Chad: The big Deel. I mean, they're obviously pulling in the cash. And the funny part about this is you might remember two HR techs ago when we were laughing at them because they had a little 10 by 10 booth at HR tech, right? Joel: [laughter] I had forgot about that. Yeah. Chad: Remember that? They had a little 10 by 10 booth. And then Eightfold had this humongous fucking spaceship, right? And yeah, we see where they're going. Looks like that spaceship might have a hard landing. But we've talked about the stupidity of return to office movements, but it's still gaining momentum. So here's a question. Deel is a platform that helps manage remote contractors. So how is Deel killing the game right now? Does that mean that the future of remote work is contract work? Is return to office only prominent in the US or is return to work just a mirage? Because Deel's numbers are not a fucking mirage. So what's happening here? Joel: I think that I look to the commercial real estate market and news around that to get a clearer picture around this. From what I can tell, and we've talked about New York City, we've talked about some other bigger cities doing really well in terms of commercial real estate, people refurbishing spaces, some making it apartments or lifestyle places where you work, live, shop, whatever. But the cities we should probably be worrying about are the Detroit's, the Cleveland's, the Pittsburgh's, you know, in terms of going back to work there. I do think there is certainly a global remote work, the ability or the need to have payroll and benefits and understanding the tax structures and everything else that goes on in employing a global workforce. But if you wanna have a global talent pool, you have to have remote workers. You can't just have people in Bangladesh move to Boston that easily. So remote work may not be what we think it's gonna be, but it is going to be a part of the world. And we're starting to see who's going to win in this space and who isn't. I mean, I think when we... You and I were real curious when we had the unicorn parade. Chad: Oh God. Joel: A couple of years ago of like who was gonna make it, who was gonna to come out of this, who was gonna thrive. And I think we're starting to get some clarity around who is gonna be the big winner and who isn't. And just looking at things like either news stories or maybe insights on LinkedIn in terms of headcount, Deel, Rippling and Remote are all doing very well in multiple parameters. Chad: Yes. Joel: Now the ones that are stabilized, maybe just for being really smart with their money, you've got the Paradoxes, the Fountains continues to do really well. Fountain to your chagrin is, is holding pretty steady, we'll see if that continues to hold. They have a lot of money to keep the lights on for a while. And then you look at who are the losers. And I think, Oyster layoffs that we talked about them recently. They seem to be challenged. Velocity Global, out of Denver, it seems to be struggling a little bit. Talent.com. We talked about some big layoffs there, pretty much the whole job board sector. If it's not declining, it's barely sort of keeping its head above water. But the unicorn slaughterhouse and who's going to be big made into mincemeat... Chad: Clearing up. Joel: Is starting to come to clarity. Deel is gonna, at least at this point, look like one of the winners. Now, I think both of us are super interested and excited anticipating the IPO flood that should eventually come with the Deels, the Personios, the HiBobs, the ATS' that we know and love that is gonna be really interesting. And who doesn't have the S1 to go public and what's gonna happen to those companies. At this time, it looks like the Oysters, the Talents and etcetera, are gonna be, on the chopping block in the IPO parade of unicorns that get steered into the slaughterhouse and not the fun house. Chad: Yeah. I'd really like to dig into a lot of these companies because the go to market obviously is different from company to company to company. And it would be nice to dissect the differences between what happened and where. I mean, that to me is the most important. Talking about Velocity Global that's out of the US. Right? You've got a Deel, out of Europe. I would say intrinsically remote is going to be big in Europe. Right. You've got all of these different countries and then you need workers. So you need that EOR system in Europe, and that's a great way to start. And then to be able to expand over into the US, just through your portfolio, just through wallet expansion. So we'll see, I don't know if that's the case, but we shall see. It'll be interesting to dissect. Joel: Yeah. The information also highlights the impending rivalry between Rippling and Deel. [laughter] If you look at both of those metrics, they're really, really similar. But yeah your point about taking too much money and we know what happens when you take too much money. SFX: 60% of the time it works every time. Joel: All right, Chad, a little RTO news, which we've had quite frequently lately. Can I interest you, Chad, in higher revenue growth in return for autonomy as a worker? Chad: I'll take it. Joel: A new report released this week by Scoop, a company that compiles data, completed an analysis of remote work policies and revenue growth at 554 public companies done in partnership with Boston Consulting Group. It found that the average public company that gives employees choice over whether to come into an office outperformed on revenue growth over the past three years by 16 percentage points compared to companies with more restrictive policies. Companies with fully flexible policies achieved a 21% industry adjusted revenue growth rate compared to only 5% for those with more restrictive policies mandating office attendance. Chad, your thoughts? Chad: So, Scoop, this is kind of... You think it's kind of like biased information just because it's, what Scoop does and they wanna push their platform. But if you take a look at the data... Joel: Public companies. Chad: They do have a great point, right? Joel: Yup. Chad: And not only that, but they have data policies from 7,500 companies. So they can see the trends from a much larger data pool. But then they get obviously even more data around the public companies, which I thought was amazing. But remote and hybrid, as this is coming to fruition, all means fewer commutes, which is less wasted windshield time and better for the environment, more autonomy. Employees feel like you're treating them like a fucking adult, greater productivity because I don't have Jeffrey barging into my office every 10 minutes with a new meme he wants to show me. And we've talked about this for like the last few weeks. Diversity, expanding your talent pool outside your norm gives you more diversity and allows women to manage their own damn day. So let's face it. We need more women back in the workplace. How are we going to do that? I don't know. Maybe give them more autonomy over their damn day, right? If they're... Chad: We've got to focus on performance and all this equals to higher revenue growth. I think they do have a point here. There is, you could see possibly some of a little bit of a bias, but it's not black or white, but this is a lot of good damn data that pushes toward at least a hybrid structure and starting to provide at least a little bit more autonomy to the work-force. Because they're adults and you pay them because you trust them. And if you don't trust them, that's why you manage them. And if you can't manage them, then that's your fucking fault. Joel: Dare I say sexy... SFX: I am happy. [laughter] Joel: Data, Chad, in case you missed it, this also this week, 41% of workers would rather quit than return to working in the office full time. That's according to poll results released from our friends at Monster. Yes, they're still around and doing surveys. [laughter] If you're keeping score at home, and Chad highlighted this, fully remote work means greater productivity, helps the environment with fewer commuters pumping CO2 into the air, improves diversity, broaden the talent pool. As Chad said, improves your brand and increases the number of candidates who actually apply to your job. Chad: Sounds good, right? Joel: So you know that from LinkedIn postings. Yeah. And now we're adding growing proof that it means higher revenue growth. So other than that, remote work kinda sucks, I guess. [laughter] Some more numbers from the Monster poll. These are fun. 66% say their overall mental health and well-being has improved working from home. 58% have increased focus due to reduced social distractions. 47% have reduced stress from avoiding a toxic work atmosphere. Maybe those are some of the Solera workers that we heard from earlier. Chad: Could be. Could be. Joel: 67% say their growth opportunities are not limited by working remotely. 46% say that working from home actually improves their work relationships. 43% feel more energized when working remotely. So a lot of the numbers around remote work are looking pretty good. So if you're an employer on the fence of what we're going to do in terms of hybrid, full on back to the office or remote, you might want to take a second look at remote if you are negative on it at the moment. [chuckle] And from remote work to some people on the job, we got some unions, union news. On the heels of the UAW when against the big three Las Vegas hospitality unions negotiating for better pay and benefits struck a historic tentative deal with Caesars Entertainment this week, averting a 10,000 worker strike. The proposed five-year contract promises wage hikes, health care and pension support, reduced workloads and advocacy for non-union workers. Talks continue with MGM Resorts and Wynn Resorts impacting some 25,000 workers amidst expectations for significant pay increases. Joel: The unions represent around 53,000 Vegas-based employees. Meanwhile, SAG-AFTRA's 118-day strike with the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers has ended, yielding a billion-dollar deal, addressing AI threats, streaming and actor rights, re-shaping Hollywood in the process. But wait, Chad, there's more. Tesla, Tesla faces worker strikes in Europe, particularly in Sweden. [laughter] Chad: Sweden. Joel: Challenging the company's refusal to negotiate collective agreements. Experts think European Union successes might influence US organizing efforts. You think? You think, Chad? So much union-winning. SFX: Opps. Winning. Joel: Your thoughts? Chad: The last story we just talked about, remote work. This is all power to the people. There's a huge shift and the union side of the house. Hell, we're talking about non-union workers who are getting the UAW bump, right? And you'll see the same thing from the Vegas hospitality. Anybody who's not a part of the union, they're going to get a bump. But what do you think that's gonna make them think about? Should I join the Union? Toyota 9% bump? Should I join the union? Maybe I could have got more. Should I join the union? You take a look at Tesla after Elon's bullshit in Sweden, and Swedish Tesla workers are on strike. But even better, dock workers are refusing to let Teslas into the country in solidarity. Why? Because they're like, you know what? That might not be my job. I might not be a Tesla worker, but they're a worker just like I am. Right? Joel: Yup. Chad: And that's the thing. In the US, what we've done is we've put focus on this rugged individualism and it has exploded finally. And we're finally getting to the point where it's like, hey, I can feel your pain. And I understand that that could be me. Forever we've been like, well, sucks to be them. Right? Joel: Yup. Chad: That is a term that we use regularly in the US. Sucks to be you, sucks to be them. Now you've gotta understand they are you. And that's exactly what Sean Fane, the UAW and all of these unions are doing. And to watch us as a society become more, again, individualists has really splintered our trust in just about everything, in religion, in politics, in friendships, in family. If we get back to understanding that, hey, look, this is us together as community, we can fix those things. And I feel like, and I'm hopeful, I'm very hopeful that this is the road to fixing those things. Joel: Go unions. SFX: All right. All right. All right. Joel: By the way, in every boardroom in the world, they're saying, how quick can we get the robots up and running? How quickly can we get the robots up and running? We knew this would be contagious if the UAW could pull this off. And they did, to my surprise, maybe less so for yours. Unionizing is the new black baby. If you go to Google and search unionizing in the news section, everyone's using a unionizing, restaurant workers, rail workers, healthcare workers, hell, there's a lighthouse workers [laughter] union percolating for goodness sake. Chad: They are still lighthouse workers? Joel: I didn't even know lighthouse workers is a thing, and they're unionizing. This thing is gonna be all the rage going forward, employers, companies are obviously freaking out. What do we do? How do we nip this in the bud? How do we get robots to take these jobs as soon as possible? Which again, goes back to the $10 million payouts for AI that OpenAI is paying people because companies are gonna wanna replace these workers as quickly as possible. But for the time being, if robots never happen, if AI never happens to take certain jobs, there are gonna be people getting paid and it's gonna be the union workers that are cashing in big time. Chad: And then we're gonna have universal high income. Joel: That's right. Thanks, Elon. Thanks Elon. Speaking of, when we come back, it's the all Elon closing. All right, Chad, from oral sex last week to Elon Musk this week. Sorry about that, everybody. Well, speaking of unions, the fifth circuit court in the US of appeals has ruled that Tesla's ban on pro union t-shirts at its Fremont, California plant did not violate labor laws. The defense Tesla does allow union stickers instead of t-shirts. So back to work, motherfuckers. And here's more Elon for you, Chad. Neuralink, Elon Musk's brain chip startup, garnered interest from thousands of brain implants after FDA approval for human trials. Musk aims to implant 11 people next year, targeting 22,000 people by 2030, envisioning a brain machine symbiosis, whatever the hell that means. Joel: Hungry for more, Elon, Chad? Tesla is constructing a unique diner and drive in movie theater combined with a supercharger station in Hollywood. The plan initially set for Santa Monica. Oh, that's where Zip Recruiter is. [laughter] They will feature a two story restaurant... Also, our friend Evan, by the way, 32 charging stalls, movie screens and a rooftop bar. This project could potentially signal the start of a nationwide chain of dine and charge stations for EV users. Chad, so much Elon, so much to digest, if you will. What are your thoughts? Chad: So you know what all of this is leading to, right? It's a town, a company town where Elon is the mayor. Everyone eats Elon burgers. Dogecoin is the currency. Everyone has a Neuralink chip in their head. And X marks the spot on Mars where this town is gonna be built. It's all coming to fruition. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! [laughter] Joel: Okay. On the T-shirts, Tesla's team wear policy, required employees to wear black shirts imprinted with the Tesla logo. The company said the policy was necessary to ensure that vehicles were not damaged during assembly. They thought the union T-shirts might damage the cars. That sounds like a lot of BS to me. Chad: Whatever. Yeah. Sure. Joel: On Neuralink. Nope, I got nothing else, but nope, I'm not on board with that. On a Tesla diner, however, Chad, I'm in. I'm in it to win it, baby. What do you think is gonna be on the menu? I have an idea. You ready? Chad: Okay. Hit me. Joel: Here we go. They're gonna have a laptop class club, a universal high income Italian beef and a dessert with Cybertruck sopapillas on the menu. Chad, count me in. Thanksgiving is around the corner. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Chad and Cheese, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Thanksgiving week means it's time for our annual Jive Turkeys edition of the podcast. This year, the boys take on Twitter's failed hiring platform after Elon Musk's acquisition, Kid Rock's inconsistent behavior and impact on Bud Light, Grindr and Xing's questionable shifts into job matching, Joonko's collapse due to unethical practices, and OpenAI's leadership upheaval with Sam Altman and Greg Brockman quitting abruptly. Next up: iCIMS' CEO's sudden resignation of Brian Provost, and Silk Road's rebranding to Rival-HR ... this after multiple leadership changes. It's a fun-filled episode of industry missteps, unethical behavior and sudden, drastic changes within these companies or individuals ... ultimately labeling them as our Jive Turkeys for 2023. Gobble! Gobble! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. Just a couple of guys who like legs and breasts. Of course, I'm talking about Thanksgiving dinner, you bunch of sickos. Hi, kids. This is The Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host Joel, never convicted, Cheeseman. Chad: Chad Turducken Sowash. Joel: And on this episode. SFX: It ain't cool being no jive turkey so close to Thanksgiving. Joel: Yeah. Let's do this. Happy Turkey Day week, Chad. Chad: Pretty stoked. Here in Europe you can do just about whatever you want with whatever food you want. The thing that's beautiful though is, I think you talked about it, is we don't have to put a turkey in the oven for eight fucking hours. We can just eat whatever we want, which is great. It's great being an adult. Joel: Sometimes it's great being an adult. Middle age, by the way, is the most thankless time of your life. Why's that? Your aging parents aren't thankful. They're mad about everything. Your kids hate you. They're mad about everything. Everyone just expects you to be on, keep the ATM full and just shut your mouth and do your job. That's middle age, everybody, in case you haven't gotten there yet. Chad: I'm not feeling that. I don't know what your problem is. Joel: Yeah, empty nester probably changes things and you haven't had any parental issues. Illness, death? Chad: Both my mom and dad have had medical issues, but they've gotten through it. They're continuing to get through it, so. Yeah, it's... Joel: Do they still live independently? Chad: Part of life. Yeah. Joel: It's coming for you. Chad: Thanks. I appreciate that. Something to be thankful for. Joel: So this episode, everybody, if you're a new listener, the holidays are just... They just hit different for us. We do this Jive Turkeys episode. We will do Naughty and Nice. We'll do Predictions. We'll do all kinds of stuff for the holidays, which is really an excuse for us not to work. We just do these fun episodes, 'cause I think everyone kinda likes... Chad: This is still work. I don't know what you did. I don't know what you did, but I worked. Joel: As the Portuguese sun beats down on your bald head, yeah, definitely work that we're doing. So we usually go to shoutouts, but I have some thankful fors and you have shoutouts of your own. So why don't you go and just hammer out your shoutouts and then we can be thankful for some stuff. Chad: Yeah. My shoutout and being thankful, all in one, is for having American football in the Algarve. Yes, I am five hours behind Eastern Standard Time. Yes, I do get the abundance of amazing European football from all the different leagues around here. But one of the thanks, my favorite bar has American football. And that to me is just something even more to be thankful for. Not only do they have an amazing whiskey selection, they have American football. Joel: Now I'm feeling like that's Latin for I get to watch the Ohio State and Michigan game this week. Is that what that means? Will this bar have Ohio State and Michigan on? Chad: Yeah. That one might be a little bit hard. NCAA's hits a little bit different, but I will ask. I will ask. Because if they can get it, they will get it. Joel: 'Cause you probably see this on your feed, but all kinds of drama. Harbaugh is a dirty boy. Michigan is naughty. Yeah, Michigan is on our naughty or nice list as a naughty. Ryan Day is under pressure. 'Cause if he can't, if it's a third straight loss to Michigan, Harbaugh's not on the sidelines. So Ryan Day is under pressure. They're talking about him being on the hot seat if he doesn't win. Chad: Whatever. Joel: This is number two versus number three in the nation. Huge repercussions for this game. And most importantly, for me, my wife is going to New York City for the holiday, for the Macy's Day parade. She's meeting her at her sister there. So I get guilt free, unhindered viewing of Ohio State and Michigan this year, which is usually a bit of a hurdle for me to clear. So Thursday football. Friday, they have now what they're calling Black Friday, which they have football now on Friday, NFL football. And then Saturday is college football galore. So I'm gonna be really happy for the next week or so. Chad: Football, football, football. Joel: Football, football. And we're not doing dinner. We did dinner at my sister's, the Thanksgiving thing. Chad: Nice, nice. Joel: At this house, we're going barbecue. I'm going down to... Chad: Good call. Joel: The barbecue shop. We're getting ribs. We're getting some chili. Maybe some sausages, some mac and cheese, some mashed potatoes. It'll be really good. Chad: Get it all. Joel: I'm gonna have my 84-year-old dad over and my six-year-old son. That's the threesome. That's the three stooges that are gonna be watching TV. So anyway, enough about me. Football's great. I'm glad you get to watch. I hope you get to watch Ohio State, Michigan, if not, well, you're in Portugal and it's life is okay either way. Chad: I'll soldier through. Joel: Yeah, I'm gonna skip the shoutouts and I'm gonna be really stereotypical and just do thankfuls. Chad: Okay. Don't make me cry. Joel: Number one, our fans. Dude, we're two middle-aged knuckleheads. To see people wear the shirts, to share the booze, to reach out, certainly I think both of us get contacted. Love the show, where you have your open office hours or whatever, where you take calls. So I'm sure you hear people... It's just fantastic, the little podcast that we've built. But it wouldn't be anything without the fans. So I gotta thank the fans. It also wouldn't be anything without the sponsors. I'm continually just amazed at the people who will write checks to be sponsors of the show. Certainly we think we have a great show and our listeners do as well, but our sponsors stick with us. They become friends, they become supporters, and it's just really great to have them around. Other than that, I think you and I are both really blessed. We have great families, great friends, and damnit, Chad, I'm thankful for you too. I'm thankful for you. Chad: I knew you were gonna try to make me cry. Joel: Yeah, I don't wanna make you cry. Chad: I knew it was coming. I could feel that. Joel: I didn't wanna bring you off the Wham, the Careless Whisper. But goddammit. I'm thankful for so much. I think we complain a lot on the show. We complain a lot in our everyday lives. Give thanks. Think about how grateful you are, how lucky you are. Your country is hopefully not at war. You're hopefully not dealing with any kind of trials and tribulations. Hopefully you have a lot to be grateful for and you can give thanks even if you're not American. Take time to give thanks this week. Chad: Yeah. Well, and also would like to thank all the listeners/watchers who are watching us on YouTube. In a very short amount of time we have almost 750 subscribers. We have great sponsor participation, people watching the shorts, people watching the full episodes. You and I both thought, "This is good audio. Anybody really going to want to look at our ugly mugs?" And they do. Joel: We never thought it was good video. That's for sure. We never thought, "This is going to make some great video." Chad: Well, thankful for the team at Skillscout for making us look good, and so good that now we have a second series on YouTube under the Chad and Cheese YouTube handle. Just youtube.com/@chadcheese, where Toby Dayton from LinkUp once a month connects with us and goes over the job numbers, goes over the landscape, goes over a lot of things, and tries to talk it down, kindergarten style, to us and to our listeners. So really, again, thankful for all of that. If you haven't subscribed, check us out on YouTube. Just search for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Absolutely. And thanks to the European show that's still voice only. That may change. Levin's just too... Chad: It might. Joel: Good looking to keep boxed up in a speaker forever. So look out for that. I don't know. I don't know. No promises, everybody. Chad: Oh, you know he wants it. Joel: By the way, speaking of sponsors, if you haven't signed up, go to ChadCheese.com. Free t-shirts from our friends at JobGet, bourbon, one from Chad, one from me. That's our friends at Textkernel. We got free beer from our homies at AspenTechLabs. And if it's your birthday, you could win a chance to win some really good ram from our friends at Plum. And if you listened to last week's show you know that I went through the rest of the month's birthday, so I wouldn't have to read them on the show. But however, I'm thankful for this sound bite. SFX: Can you feel the tension... Chad: Yes. SFX: In the air right now? Joel: Oh, I can feel it. SFX: I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plum. Joel: And if you love that one, oh yeah, you're gonna love this one too. This is our fantasy football sound bite. And Tuesday means we have a new leaderboard, Chad, and we're recording this on Tuesday. So I wanna read our top 12 leaderboard in fantasy football. Number one, Marcy Mall continues to crush it, just like number two, Michelle Sargent. Chad: Killing it. Joel: Killing it. It'll be a travesty if neither one of them win the league. But anything can happen. Anything can happen. Dean Aparro. Chad, you're number four now, which puts you in a playoff spot. If you can hold on to this, then happy days for you, my friend. Chad: That's a big if. Joel: The following list is Joe Dixon, Dean Osner, Jill Patterson. I come in at number eight, which is up from number 10, so watch out for me. I stuck it to Jasper, which makes me feel good. I think I beat him, I beat Tupper, and I think I beat you this year, which is really all I need from fantasy football. Number 10, Brent Losey. Dennis Tupper continues to drag on the bottom. Chad: Winner last year. Joel: He's a bottom feeder. He loves it, apparently. And Kristen Urban, just a string of bad luck for her. But that is our fantasy football list. [music] Joel: And with that, Chad, are you ready for a little jive turkey time? Chad: Bring it. Joel: So if you're a new listener, here's what we do. We each pick three or four companies, people in the industry, that just deserve to be called out as jive turkeys. They've either broken a law, they've disgraced themselves, they've destroyed share value, something or other. Chad: Themselves, their families. Joel: They've just embarrassed themselves, and there's just no fun... Speaker 4: It ain't cool being no jive turkey so close to Thanksgiving. Joel: For jive turkeys this close to Thanksgiving. So Chad, let's have you start with your first jive turkey of 2023. Chad: This will not surprise anyone right out of the gate. My first jive turkey goes to the Twitter hiring platform. Twitter was bought at a $44 billion price tag by Elon Musk, and now it's worth $19 billion. So how does Elon make up that $25 billion in losses? Well, it's easy. You start a job board. Apparently, that's how you do it. Earlier this year, Twitter's announcement of a hiring platform after acquiring Laskie, it got us thinking. Since Laskie was a job matching engine, how would Twitter match people to jobs? Unlike LinkedIn, Twitter doesn't have a person's career information, expertise, skills or anything really regarding occupation. So what corpus of data would they use to match these users to jobs? We were really racking our brains on this. Well, I guess we thought way too deep on this because Twitter launched their first version of job cards, doing what everybody's been doing on Twitter for years, blasting jobs into their feed. Top five job listings on corporate profiles. That's innovative. And last but not least, we just heard last week a basic 1990 style job search. So Elon compared what was coming to a new and cooler version of LinkedIn. Well, Elon, maybe in 2006, but not in 2023. So this early version of Twitter hiring platform gets a jive turkey from me. Joel: Oh, boy. And Twitter/X gave us plenty to talk about in 2023, Chad. You picked obviously the most relevant one to the industry. How do companies pick their top five? It's like MySpace when you had to pick your top friends. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: I don't know how they come up with their five. But, yes, the search box... Chad: And how do you manage it? Joel: Let's hope that comes in '24. Let's hope the LinkedIn killer gets launched by Elon, because that'll be a lot of fun to talk about. Chad: Talk a little bit more about that later. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. Yeah. This was bad for sure. Chad: I don't think it's gonna be Twitter, though. SFX: It ain't cool being no jive turkey so close to Thanksgiving. Joel: All right. That brings me to my first turkey of 2023. Well, Chad, we talk a lot about brand integrity, walking the walk, if you're gonna talk the talk if you will. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Well, let's look at how not to do that by focusing on Kid Rock from 2023. By the way, do you have a favorite Rock, Chad? We got the Rock, Chris Rock, Kid Rock, Plymouth Rock. Do you have a favorite Rock? Chad: Do I have a favorite Rock? I like Pet Rock. That thing. Yeah. Joel: Pet Rock. Okay. Go '70s. I'll go Chris Rock. Just generational comedian. Anyway, so back in April, the right wing lost its mind When Dylan Mulvaney promoted Bud Light as a trans celebrity. Here's Kid Rock going to Twitter with a really big gun showing the world what he thinks about Bud Light and Dylan Mulvaney's relationship. S6: Let me say something to all you and be as clear and concise as possible. Fuck Bud Light and fuck Anheuser-Busch. Have a terrific day. Joel: [laughter] Have a great day. Anyway, pretty tough guy. He was on brand, everyone on the right, the mega knuckleheads all cheered him. However, in August, Chad, just a few months later, he was sighted online enjoying a Bud Light at a Nashville bar. Oops. That's... SFX: That's winning. Joel: That's not winning, Chad, by the way. So Twitter cried treason, of course, highlighting his flip flop. [laughter] Joel: Then, Chad, just this month, he goes on Hannity, and for those of you who don't know Hannity, he is a Fox News celebrity, and says that he never called for a boycott of the beer, and he feels bad about the people who lost their jobs because of his stunt. For the record, Bud Light's stock has almost back up to pre Kid Rock and pre boycott levels. No word on the hundreds of people who did lose their job when the stock did tank. But for all this and more, the flopping, the idiocy, just the relevant knuckleheadedness of America, Kid Rock gets my first jive turkey of 2023. Speaker 4: It ain't cool being no jive turkey so close to Thanksgiving. Chad: So much fake outrage in 2023. There's just so much of it. People are so pissed and they're so mad, and you try to ask them, "About what? What are you really mad at?" Joel: He should be mad about not making a hit in the last 20 years. That's what he should be mad about. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was a diversion. Joel: Bawitdaba was a long time ago, Mr. Rock. Bawitdaba was a long time ago. Chad: Nobody is paying attention to him. And he wants somebody to pay attention to him. So therefore, fake outrage gets him attention, apparently not the attention that he wanted. Joel: Before we get to yours, and I know everyone is really excited, let's take a quick break, pay some bills and we'll be right back with Chad's jive turkey of 2023, number two. Joel: All right, Chad, it's our Jive Turkey episode. You've already given us one, Elon and Twitter/X. Now give us your number two jive Turkey of 2023. Chad: Well, Joel, my next turkey is what I would like to call a shared dining experience, where a portion of this is gonna go to Grindr, a location-based social networking and online dating application targeted towards gay, bisexual, and transgender people. Why Grindr? SFX: Just a tip. Chad: That's right. Because Grindr targeted LinkedIn by saying their location-based matching platform would double as a hiring platform. Joel: Say what? Chad: Yes. A dating app doubling as a hiring app. Anyone with half a brain will understand that using a hookup app is not a smart move for hiring. Seriously, what company wants to have a hookup culture in the office? And the final portion of this turkey dinner goes to Zing. Zing is reversing course and turning itself from a LinkedIn style platform, mainly in Germany, into a job board. So literally, instead of just adding job search matching and engagement capabilities into their social platform, they decreased their tam dramatically along with any valuation they had. So this shared dining experience is a combo platter for Grindr and Zing served up by our friends at LinkedIn. Joel: Look at you with the puns. S8: Has anyone noticed this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. [laughter] Joel: And you accused me of the dad jokes. My favorite part about the Grindr story was it happened when we were live at Shaker headquarters. [laughter] Joel: And we bring Joe Shaker to an interview and the first thing we say is, "So Grindr for jobs, man, are you guys pushing that to your customers?" And of course, Joe had to be as diplomatic as possible and say... Chad: He took it like a champ. He took it like a champ. Joel: Yeah, something like, "We look at all the advertising mediums and we look at them, objectively," yada, yada, yada, yada. But you could tell he really appreciated that he was on the Grindr episode. He really appreciated that. SFX: What are you doing, step bro? Joel: All right. Well, that's gobble number two from Chad. My number two gobbler goes to Joonko, yeah, a company we didn't talk about a lot. That's J-O-O-N-K-O. And they got KO this year, if you will. A little bit about them. Founded in 2016, they focused on helping underrepresented candidates get hired. Well, that was pretty hot back in 2020, '21, '22. A noble go for sure. They were spearheaded by Ilit Raz, their founder and CEO. Well, in September of '22, they raised $25 million and things looked pretty great for the company. Now, fast forward to June of this year, and Raz is in trouble as the company faces collapse... And in fact, they have collapsed. We'll get to that in a second. Due to allegations that it misled investors. An internal probe revealed Raz's involvement in unethical practices, exaggerating the company's business size. She allegedly claimed partnerships with 150 companies than the actual number was much lower than that. The scheme involved fake invoices, fake wire transfers, and fake bank accounts. Oi! Chad: Jesus. Oh, my God. Joel: Raz, who resigned following these findings, has not commented on the allegations. They also, Chad, if you want more, claimed 500% sales growth for the two years following the investment. They lied about partnerships with American Express, PayPal, and Accenture. As of today, the website is kaput. It's down, it's out. Sorry for the employees that got behind this company and this leader, including our friend, Albrey Brown, who's been on the show at least once. Turkey number two for me goes to Joonko and its founder. Oi! Chad: How is she not in jail? She took money, she faked invoices, she faked wire transfers, bank information. How is she not in jail? That's the question. Joel: I wanna know when her Hulu series is coming out. Forget jail. [laughter] Joel: These people go to TV when they do this kind of shit. We work. Chad: Well, I think if she went to jail... Joel: We work Uber. She should face justice for sure. We'll follow this story. But yeah, everything has been erased minus their LinkedIn page which they still have. Chad: Yeah. That's fraud. I don't know how they don't go to jail. Joel: Every year something like this happens. Whether it's the oil rig guy from a year or so ago, whether it's Zenefits. Chad: Rigzone. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. The fraud isn't just for Theranos and WeWork and the companies that get Hulu series. They happen in our industry too. And hopefully, we're there to highlight it and talk about it in 24 when it happens with whoever. Whatever unicorn defrauds investors next year, we'll be there to talk about it a year from now. But that is my turkey number two, Chad. What do you got next? Chad: I've got the biggest turkey. So let me go ahead and set this up for you. You might know a guy by the name of Sam Altman and also Greg Brockman. They did what every other founder was afraid to do. While every other founder keeps their products behind the demo wall, Sam Altman and Greg Brockman gave everyone access to the product. No charge. Go play with it. Have fun. Rate it. Talk about it. Tell your friends, family, your peers at work. Just use it. Use ChatGPT. Joel: This is sounding pretty good so far, Chad. Does this turn take a turn for the worst? What... Chad: It's getting there. It's getting there. This is why it's a big Turkey. I need a big setup. Overnight ChatGPT and OpenAI became household names and catapulted into a position as the leader in generative AI, a company most of the population had never heard of before. They became the leader in AI overnight. Sam Altman was constantly featured in stories, on stages all over the world. He was the new tech wunderkind. Joel: Poster child. Yep. Chad: So an overnight success. And remember most people had no clue who the fuck he or OpenAI was just a year ago. Microsoft sees its chance, funds OpenAI with $13 billion, that's billion with a B, $13 billion. All Microsoft products are now infused with OpenAI generative AI. Yeah, exactly. Google is caught off guard, fumbles the release of its ChatGPT competitor, Bard. Who makes Google stumble and look like it's amateur hour? Nobody does, but Greg and Sam did. Last Friday, this is where it comes. Last Friday, a year after ChatGPT was opened up to the masses, OpenAI's board sacked Sam Altman and Greg Brockman quit in solidarity. Microsoft only received word about two minutes before the press release was dropped. That's right. Microsoft, the same close partner, the one that has $13 billion, injecting OpenAI tech even into their product suite. No heads up. So in a baller move, Microsoft brings Altman and Brockman both to the head of Microsoft's new AI venture. That's right. The new CEO of OpenAI will have to report to its big biggest partner and customer, Sam and Greg. [laughter] Chad: So meanwhile, 550 out of 700 employees at OpenAI have signed a letter telling the board to resign, or they're going to leave and go to Microsoft with Altman and Brockman. OpenAI, no doubt, is the biggest turkey of the year. Joel: And more directly, the board, I guess, and whoever made these decisions. SFX: 60% of the time it works. Chad: Three people left on the board. Three people left on the board. They're going to have to go ahead and commit Harry Carey. They're gonna have to restock the board. There's gonna have to be something that happens. But what does Microsoft do? Do they just sit back and watch or do they just go ahead and and buy this thing up? That's the question. Joel: Yeah. This is fascinating. Chad: It is. Joel: This is news. This is like unfolding as we record and more news will come out about this. There was word of trying to bring Sam back. There are obviously employment agreements in place. These people in California, where there is no agreement. There is no non compete. Chad: Exactly. Joel: How many are in states that do. The board has egg on its face just immensely. The payouts by Microsoft, as I understand it, are due to milestones that the company hits, and so it wasn't like they just backed up the Brinks truck and said, "Here's billions and billions of dollars." Chad: But it's their waiting, right? Joel: Yeah. [laughter] Microsoft may have just bought this company or the brain power of this company. They're already doing the server power. They've already integrated it into their stuff. Microsoft may have pulled off the biggest coup in corporate history, 'cause Zuck and Google and Amazon was all on the phone trying to get Sam to come... Chad: Oh God. Yeah. Joel: Do something at... Chad: Easily. Joel: The only few companies that have the power that can do the things that OpenAI does. But anyway, yeah. This may go down in history as Microsoft's greatest takeover by acquisition. I don't know. It's very interesting. The board looks really stupid and we criticize Zuck for having total control of Facebook. We criticize Elon for basically having no board. He just calls the shots. This is kinda what happens when a founder or guy that is in charge has no stake in the company. He's on record saying, "I don't want any share of the company. This is an open project," yada yada. This looks like a hissy fit. This looks like a knee jerk reaction. Chad: Easily. Yes. Joel: It looks like billionaires that are having a hissy fit are throwing a tantrum over something. But it's very odd. Very odd. Very odd. Chad: Well, I've gotta give you one more quick story. So Julie and I, we went to a Google developer conference in Lagos this last weekend. On our way back, we were listening to one of the "emergency podcasts" from one of my favorite podcasts called Hard Fork. And I'm sitting here listening to it and I look at Julie and I said, "You know what I would do if I was Satya? I would hire Altman and I would... " That is a baller move if you can get him. Because then whoever comes in at OpenAI is going to be literally reporting to Altman at that point. And the next thing you know, Julie comes out yesterday and she's like, "Did you see the news?" I'm like, "No. What?" "Yeah. They did exactly what you said they were gonna do." [laughter] SFX: Oops. Winning. [laughter] Joel: Yes. It's very, very bizarre. Well, from one corporate gobbler to another, my third gobbler of the year. And this pains me, Chad. It pains me, 'cause... I think I speak for both of us when I say that we love iCIMS. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Early supporter. Analyst day. We knew the early people, the early folks. We were there in the acquisition. Some of the people there are our biggest fans, we're some of their biggest fans, but there's really no getting around that they did a real jive turkey move this year. So in fall of '22, they announced at their annual show a new CEO, Brian Provost, who gets ultimately my Jive Turkey of the Year award. So '22 fall, they announced Provost as CEO. By '23 fall, he is out, resigned abruptly as CEO of iCIMS. The company cited personal reasons. You and I went on the show on the weekly edition and said thoughts and prayers if this is something personal that he just couldn't get out of, just like an emergency thing. Joel: And the more I talked to other people that I trust and sort of been around a while and I thought about it myself, if it was a personal reason, when CEOs leave for personal reason, even when Steve Jobs left for cancer and dealing with that, they had an interim CEO, and typically, "I'm gonna come back once we've beaten this thing," or, "Once the personal thing is resolved, I'll come back." But until then let's get a plan together. Who's gonna be interim? Who's gonna be the new whatever? There's a plan laid out. It's not like an abrupt, "I'm out of here for personal reasons." So clearly, just like OpenAI, multi-billion dollar valued company has hissy fits on the board, has CEOs that abruptly leave. There's no way of getting around it. Brian Provost bounced on iCIMS. We don't know why. We can speculate. They were supposed to go public. Maybe that was part of the vision and the company did a u-turn on that. Maybe he got into the business and said, "Oops, this wasn't what I expected." We don't really know. And unfortunately, I don't think we ever will know. To this day, iCIMS is still without a CEO. Or at least I haven't seen anything across the wire. And I think that I would if I did. I don't think they've announced a date for their annual event. I think that's on ice. Chad: Yeah, I think it's in May. Joel: Okay. So tentatively next year it'll hopefully happen. And we'd love to attend. We did their keynote, I guess, or one of their big stage... We had a nice stage presence last year. Anyway, this guy comes on at the annual event. He talks about his family. He is a hockey guy, kind of a tough guy, Minnesota salt of the earth. And then he just bounces from the organization. According to his LinkedIn profile he is now a board member at Zenwork and Border Foods. I don't know, Border Foods, but Zenwork deals with taxes and regulation reporting, and they just got $163 million in investment. So I'm guessing Mr. Provost will land on his feet there at Zenwork in some form or fashion while iCIMS sits sort of stagnant without a CEO. And for that reason, my number three gobbler of the year goes to iCIMS' former CEO, Brian Provost. Chad: A guy like Brian Provost, you expect more. And at this point, the only thing I can say is from the outside looking in, he just didn't give a shit. [laughter] Chad: He just didn't give a shit. He either has enough money in the bank, which I'm sure he does. He has enough connections. He was part of this PE portfolio. He just didn't give a shit. And that to me is sad because, again, it impacts a company, hundreds of people, thousands, especially if you're talking about customers. Joel: People we know and love. Chad: Yeah. So personally for me, I'm going to say, "Fuck that guy." [laughter] Joel: Always you to mince words, Chad. Always you to dance around the topic. But yeah, look, you don't take this job without being an adult, and that did not happen here. And that is very unfortunate. ICIMS will land on their feet though. ICIMS will land on their feet. Chad: I think they will. Joel: And we will land on our feet after we take a quick break before we get to Chad's final gobbler of 2023. Joel: All right, Chad, we've gone through a long list of turkeys, my friend. I'm almost full. I'm almost done with turkey. I almost can't take it anymore, but I think you might save us with a new menu item. What you got? Chad: Yes. Well, for those who don't like turkey, I've chosen to add a little ham to the menu. Joel: Ooh. Chad: A couple of weeks ago, SilkRoad changed their name to, wait for it, Rival and their domain, they changed their domain name from silkroad.com, that's a damn good domain name. Joel: Yep. Don't say it. Chad: To rival-hr.com, a very less... Joel: Oh, no. Chad: Less amazing name. So this is... Joel: No. Did you say hyphen, dash? Chad: Yes. Joel: Oh, no. No. Chad: So this is quite odd as SilkRoad Technology was founded in 2003. Yeah, they're 20 years old, so why the change? If you're an established and well recognized player in the space, why change? Well, I think that's the problem. SilkRoad isn't a widely recognized player. After 20 years as a core talent platform, something had to change, and it did. Remember that SilkRoad acquired Entelo right off the clearance rack a little over a year ago, and then elevated Entelo's clearance rack CEO, Robert Tsao, to the CEO of SilkRoad. And I think we were both kind of mesmerized about, "What the fuck is going on here?" So how does a point solution clearance rack CEO ascend to become the CEO of the acquiring organization? Well, let's go back to 2021, when HighBar Partners acquired SilkRoad, there it is. PE wanted, no, they needed a change. So acquire some new cool tech off the clearance rack, kick out the current CEO, elevate the clearance rack CEO. We're all good. We're on our way. Well, apparently not all change is good because Robert Tsao was replaced by Greg DiTullio, I think that's how you say it. Joel: R2-D2. What? Chad: Yeah, if you are R2-D2. And SilkRoad can now be found at rival-hr.com. High Partners is slapping more lipstick on their pig than Indeed, which is why High Partners receives the 2023 Little Piggy award. That's soo bad. Joel: That's a lot of ham right there, baby. Chad: That's so bad. Joel: That's a lot of ham. Chad, I'm impressed. You stayed focused. You didn't go to Johnny Taylor. You did. You stayed away from Indeed. We both did. Chad: No, Josh Bersin. Joel: No, Josh. That was my next one. No Bersin. So you've spared a lot of people this year, and they should be thankful for that, my friend, as they sit down for dinner. Any other honorable mentions that you can think of? I'll throw out one. Chad: Go ahead. Joel: ZipRecruiter's Ant-Man promotion almost made my turkeys. Chad: Oh, Jeez. Joel: If you remember the Ant-Man commercials that did not feature Paul Rudd's voice. I'm sure they couldn't afford Paul Rudd's voice as part of the promotion, but they did a... Chad: Ridiculous. Joel: Promotion with Ant-Man and put no Ant-Man stuff on the website. There was nothing on the website that was like partnering with Ant-Man, searching for jobs. So ZipRecruiter almost made my list of turkeys and shit. Chad: So did their marketing team get totally cut prior to that? Because this is like there's... It was like there was nobody at home. Joel: If they had just had the Marvels and the blockbuster Marvel film that just came out, that's a whole other podcast that I'm sure you have opinion on. You also stayed away from Wrexham, which I'm guessing is gonna be in our Christmas naughty or nice episode. I'm guessing we're gonna hear some Ryan Reynolds... Chad: There's a possibility. Joel: At Christmas time. But until then, Chad, happy Thanksgiving, happy Turkey day. However, you celebrate or don't celebrate. Chad: Happy barbecue. Joel: Barbecue, football, hopefully for you, Ohio State in a route of that team up north. I will talk to you, my friend, after the week. I'm gonna miss you, man. I'm gonna miss you. Chad: Miss you. Joel: Miss you so much, dude. Get the fuck out of here. Joel: All right. Enough of that. We out. Chad: We out. OUTRO: Thank you for listening to... What's it called? The podcast. The Chad, The Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know, and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It is so weird. We out.

Can't get no satisfaction with those other podcasts? Well, you've come to the right place. This week was one helluva news cycle, including an 'F bomb' from our favorite billionaire nut job, Elon Musk, to go along with a job board launch out of Twitter, er, X. Spoiler alert: Indeed's probably not losing a lot of sleep over it, but if employers don't want jobs on a platform with antisemitic content, they may want to pay attention. (Talkin' to you, too, Appcast.) Plus, Amazon is officially in the ChatGPT competition game, with something HR should be paying attention to, LinkedIn has finally figured out it can make money in healthcare, unions keep winning, and Machine Gun Kelly is hoping to poach NFL star Travis Kelce back to his hometown Cleveland. Who says you can't always get what you want? Not our listeners. We even throw in some AARP-inspired "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up" jokes to talk about The Rolling Stones recent ticket pre-sale on AARP's website. Don't want to spoil it for you, but the computer screen was 'painted black' for a lot of would-be ticket buyers. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh Yeah. We gave up drinking whiskey this week. It was the worst 20 minutes of our entire lives. What's up kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Kissinger Cheeseman. Chad: And this is Chad. Get the popcorn ready Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, Amazon has a queue. LinkedIn hits on nurses and boomers can't get no satisfaction. Let's do this. What's up. Chad, were you, were you overserved last night on the beach? Chad: Oh my God, man, it wasn't my intent to go out last night. I was going to stay home 'cause, Julie, has trash TV night with the girls They watch Too hot to handle. Joel: Is this the points game or the money game? Where if you like. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like if you. Joel: Get naughty. Chad: If you kiss or you screw or whatever, they take money away from it. Yeah. It's stupid. Joel: Is it people from multiple countries this season? Chad: I Don't know. I don't know. Joel: Yeah. Chad: I don't know. But it's, I mean, it's like brainless TV, which is. Joel: Sure. Chad: You got hot people on TV. It's totally brainless. You don't have to think about anything. Well, I was just gonna watch Blue Samurai, Blue-Eyed Samurai, which is awesome on Netflix if you haven't watched it. It's really fucking. Joel: I haven't. Chad: It's awesome. It is awesome. You gotta watch it. Joel: Not Spoiling it. What's it about? Chad: I'm not gonna, I'm not even gonna tell you when you get into it. You will get sucked right into it. Joel: Blue-eyed Samurai. Chad: Blue-Eyed Samurai. Joel: Okay. Chad: Anyway, so I was lured down to the bar, which is not hard. And yeah, I didn't, we didn't, I didn't get home till 3:00 AM So, that being said, [laughter] Yeah. [laughter] Joel: Well, it sounds like you my friend, need one of our favorite sound bites to feel better. Have a listen. S4: Like That thing's giant. How many times bigger is it than Earth? Like. S5: The moon? S4: Yeah. S5: No, no Not bigger [laughter] S4: Here it is. Joel: I wish we had a visual on this. 'Cause you could see the guy like, okay, do I wanna screw this up? Okay. Maybe it is. Maybe it's, maybe it is bigger. Chad: Maybe I just go with it. Depends on how hot she is apparently. S4: The moon is bigger than Earth. Joel: Oh. Yeah. That's why we need the visual to really appreciate. Chad: Has to be. [laughter] Joel: I love Australia. Australia is just the gift that keeps on giving. It is the Florida of the Southern Hemisphere. Chad: I know. It definitely is. It definitely is. It definitely is. Joel: Alright. Well, can you gather the strength for some shout outs? Chad: I think I can. I think I can. Joel: Maybe. One. Can we get one shout out. I'll, I'll give one if you give one. Chad: Let's give a shout out to Canadian Journalism's win over Google. That's right. Over the years we've talked about how the internet, mainly Google at this point, has killed journalism. Well, not in Canada. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau stated quote, "after months of holding strong and demonstrating our commitment to local journalism, to strong, independent journalism getting paid for their work, Google has agreed to properly support journalists including local journalism." End quote. What does that mean? Well, the Canadian government had estimated earlier this year that Google's compensation to news outlets should be about $172 million. Google's estimates were a little bit lower, around a hundred billion. It's still chump change for Google, but remember, many other countries are watching very closely for the outcome of this fight. And they're going to want their piece of Google. S6: Take off. Lee. We're doing our movie. Don't wreck our show. You Hoser. Chad: To the great white North. Joel: Google calls that lunch money. Chad: Oh, yeah. [laughter] Chad: How many times are they gonna have to do this though? From country to country to country to country. Joel: Yeah. I mean, the, the defense on this, and, and Zuckerberg basically said, Zuckoff, to Justin Trudeau. I think from this whole process, I saw a story a few weeks ago about how little referral traffic news stories get now. On Facebook, which basically says like, okay, you want money, we're just gonna take you off the platform. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So very few tra... Very little traffic now comes from Facebook. Google It's a little bit tough because it's a search engine and those are trusted stories. And, but like Facebook, you can kind of get away with it 'cause you're sharing pictures of, of babies. And. Chad: My sunset. Yeah. Joel: You're drunk a night out with your wife and your, and your, and your your food on the beach in Portugal. Like, that's what I have to deal with on Facebook now instead of, instead of... Chad: That's news [laughter] Joel: That's a good one. That's news. That's news. And so is this even much less? Less so, but yes. Travis Kelce's been in the news, a lot. Chad: Taylor Swift. Joel: He's dating someone named Taylor Swift. I, haven't heard of her, but she's kind of a big deal apparently. Well, Kelce, Travis and his brother have a podcast. We talk a lot about poaching on the show. You remember, American Airlines going after UPS and FedEx pilots with $250,000 to get them to. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: To come to American Airlines. Well, machine Gun Kelly, another Clevelander as is Kelce, took poaching to a whole new level. I wanna play you, something from their, their podcast this week. Kelce Travis: Kel's What's Good Dog. Machine Gun Kelly: I'm sure you get asked this question behind closed doors a lot. Chad: Oh shit. Machine Gun Kelly: But I would be, remissed if due to the nature of our friendship and just as a clevelander that I did not insert this question personally. Joel: Okay. Chad: I don't even know What's... Machine Gun Kelly: I will give you $500,000 cash upon arrival just for shopping or whatever you want, as well as matching that same amount as a donation to both of our high schools. Both Shaker Heights and Cleveland Heights, as well as every day breakfast and coffee delivery from my restaurant [laughter] Joel: Oh. Chad: Oh my Gosh. Machine Gun Kelly: If you would just come home and put on these colors right here and. [laughter] Kelce Travis: You mother, you know, that was the original Dream Dog. [laughter] Joel: So Machine Gun Kelly 500K Cash money, tax free. Chad: Breakfast. Joel: Basically. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Breakfast in bed coffee for Taylor Swift, from his restaurant. It's great. So Shaker Heights is Machine Gun Kelly, Cleveland Heights. I lived in University Heights for a long time, which is wedged in between the two. So this one hit close to home as a Browns fan and, and as a still clevelander in many, in many ways. But this takes poaching to a whole new level. And I wanna see more of this in sports. Chad: Well they've gotta get somebody to throw him the ball in Cleveland and they just don't have that. So, I mean, there's no reason for him to go there in the first place. 'Cause he can't throw himself the ball. Okay. So it's unfortunate, but it's just, it's just the case. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. Joel: He goes on to say like, I'm not gonna lie to you. I got, I got it pretty good in Kansas City. So he goes, he goes on to say like, it's not too bad, but you know what they say about quarterbacks in Cleveland. S9: 60% of the time it works every time. Chad: It's more like 10% of the time it works every time. [laughter] Joel: Well, you know, who's winning is people who sign up for free Shit. Chad: Our Listeners are winning. That's right. If you go to chadcheese.com/free, you can get yourself a T-shirt, from our friends at JobGet, beer, craft beer delivered to your doorstep. Not by us. It's gonna be UPS or or somebody like that. FedEx from Aspen Tech Labs. Our friends over at Aspen Tech Labs Whiskey two bottles. I don't want to think about Whiskey. SFX: I Happy. Chad: I wanna think about whiskey right now, but two bottles you're gonna get delivered from Textkernel. That's right. Our friend's at Textkernel. And if it's your birthday, it's rumwithplum.io. S11: Really? Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can [laughter] I can feel it all the way down in my plum. Chad: Sounds like he needs to take that plum assessment is what it sounds like he needs. Joel: Yeah. Best, best sponsorship ever. [laughter] alright, so, rum with Plum, if it's your birthday this month, you could win a, a great bottle of rum from our friends at Plum. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So celebrating another trip around the sun this week. Listeners Deidre Pitts, Frank Wittenauer, Mary Kelly, Michael Cox, Nathan Budziak, Terry Kaler, Steven Branch, Andy Parker, Kyle Pollard, Alex Murphy. Chad: Oh. Joel: Ryan Irwin, Mason Wong and Matt Grafflin. And our friend Torin Ellis all take another trip around the sun. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: This week. Happy birthday to them. And by the way, Chad, we're working on our Christmas cards for the year, which you can only get if you sign up as a fan. So... Chad: Free stuff. Joel: If you want the Christmas card this year, you don't wanna just have FOMO on social media. Go out to chadcheese.com, click the free link and, sign up for our stuff. Chad: We send cool stuff. And it's for free. Gotta say it's gonna be great next week. Yeah, it is. Next week. Jesus gonna fly out on Saturday. I'm really looking forward to seeing all my friends and people in London for TA Tech Europe next week. I'm especially interested to see what a room full of tech vendors think innovation looks like these days. Chat GPT was launched, to the public about a year ago. And I mean, it's gonna be, it's really gonna be interesting to see large language models and data sets, those types of things. I wanna see these brains working. So this is my challenge to you. Everybody coming to TA Tech don't come with the basic bullshit stuff. Okay. I don't wanna hear about emails. Okay. I don't want to hear about, I wanna hear about the really cool innovation that you guys are bringing to the market. Joel: I think you're saying not not too much fish and chips. Not too much [laughter] Not too many pints before you come. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Come to play. 'Cause Chad's got his game face on. Chad: That's right. Joel: Chad, we got, we got a lot of great shows, but we got another one. SFX: Another one. Joel: That maybe people don't know about. We're doing the Chad and Cheese podcast does data with Toby Dayton from Linkup. We look every month at the Fed numbers, employment numbers, economic numbers, and we dive in. We give it a Chad and Cheese spin to it. But if you, if you haven't, plugged into that, it's only on YouTube, check us out at youtube.com/at Chad Cheese and get all the economic goodness from our, our friend Sasquatch of Statistics, Toby Dayton. SFX: Economic goodness. Joel: That's right. That's right. Chad: Oh, no. Joel: Oh, it's winding down Chad. And not looking good for me. Chad: Oh no. Joel: I'm gonna just have to root for you. [laughter] Well, fantasy football. Fantasy football. Again, our friends at Factory Fix, we appreciate it. Not looking good for me. Chad is looking pretty good here in week 13, I think. But here's your, here's your leaderboard. I feel pretty good about my nicknames this Chad, you ready? [laughter] Chad: Okay. Joel: And number one, we got Marcy Mallrat, number two. Michelle, Sergeant Peppers. Number three, Vitamin Dina Perro. Number four. Chad, GPT Sowash. Oh, that was pretty good. [laughter] That was after about three grams of, of Scotch. Number five Bag of Dixon [laughter] That's Joe Bag of Dixon, by the way. Number six. Cyprus Jill Patterson for the Cypress Hill fans. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Number seven. Cool Modine Ossner. Chad: Very nice. Joel: Number eight, Brent Locey How much you could save bundling your home in auto. You may not get that 'cause you're not in the US anymore. [laughter] but if you watch football, you know that one. Number nine, Joel Gargan Zola Cheeseman. By the way, Chad, did you know that there is 1,871 types of cheese in the world? I didn't know that. Chad: I did not. Yeah. Joel: Number 10. Jasper Eyewear Spanx Spanjar [laughter] number 11, Dennis Quaid Tupper. And number 12, the caboose. Kristin Urban Dictionary. And that is our factory fix. Fantasy football leaderboard. Put me outta my misery. The season is almost over. Intro: Topics. Oh, that Hurt. Joel: What's topics This bitch. And what better way to start our topics than Elon Musk. Elon Musk speaking at the 2023 Deal book Summit. Defiantly addressed advertisers leaving X formerly Twitter due to anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic. Chad: Yes. Joel: Did I say that right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Posts. He boosted Musk told them to go fuck yourself and threatened to expose their actions. He admitted posting foolish content and denied being anti-Semitic. Musk, discussed unions. China's influence and voiced AI concerns. I couldn't believe that he actually said, go fuck yourself. So we had to go to the audio Chad. [laughter], enjoy it. Bob Iger: You don't want them to advertise? Elon Musk: No. Bob Iger: What do you mean? Elon Musk: If somebody's gonna try to blackmail me with advertising, blackmail me with money, go fuck yourself. Bob Iger: But. Elon Musk: Go fuck yourself, [laughter] Is that clear? I hope it is. Hey, Bob. Joel: So there you go, Chad. Go fuck yourself. In job site news, however, x.com/jobs is now live. Yes. It redirects to twitter.com. 'Cause x.com isn't working currently. But, whatever, whatever, dude. If you, if you had quote, it'll look like Indeed Circa 2008. Well, you've, you win. Because it looks just like indeed Circa 2008 reviews of the new job board. Vertical search, I don't know. Job search engine, are mostly positive, but this whole effort is barely halfway to first base. Chad, your thoughts on all things Elon this week? Chad: Yeah. Alright. Let's, let's go to the, the, the things that matter most, and it kind of trickle down. So kids were watching the richest man in the world melt down right in front of our eyes. The high Bob comments at the end was for Bob Iger, CEO of Disney, who pulled Disney's ad budget from Twitter after some of Musk's controversial tweets. Retweets boosting that kinda shit. But Disney isn't the only advertiser finding the exit. IBM, Warner Brothers Discovery. Sony, Comcast, NBC, Universal and Lionsgate are some who have left the burning building. I think it's fairly simple brands and people don't want to associate with a platform full of antisemitism conspiracy theories and division. For starters, the optics are bad and the moral dilemma is even worse when advertising dollars go to fuel this hate machine. Right. So the following is from, a Slate article, just last month quote, since Musk bought Twitter in October, 2022. Chad: Can't believe it was only that long ago. It's lost approximately 13% of its apps daily active users. According to new data from mobile research firm, Apptopia and its rebrand as X only accelerated the decline end quote. So blue checks ad dollars, a thousand dollars monthly business accounts and 1990 style job boards. It, they can't save this dumpster fire. They are throwing everything at the wall, but the thing that everybody's hearing one of the smartest, richest man in the world looking like a total fucking ass. Every, it's, it's, it feels like it's almost every single day. So, I mean, who wants to be a part of this, this, this fucking dumpster fire? I mean, obviously these big brands don't, and it's their prerogative not to. And since he told them to fuck off, I guess they, they sure the hell don't have to come back. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: You remember the movie Brewster's Millions? Chad: Yes. Joel: So for the kids out there that don't know Richard Pryor, John Candy's in it. Anyway, it's kind of a, it's a forgettable movie, but the premise is, Richard Pryor, if he can spend I think a million dollars over 30 days, he gets. Chad: I think it was 30 million or something like that, but it was a lot of money. He had to spend a shit ton of cash. Joel: Like a million dollars a day for 30 days or something. Chad: Yeah. Something like that. Joel: So anyway, he had to spend a ton of money. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Which in 1980, whatever. Was a lot of like, that was like, he was buying teams. He was buying like real estate and crazy stuff. Chad: Yep. Joel: And he was given money to employ people. Everyone knew that it was gonna end badly. Chad: Well, and he couldn't have any assets at the end of it. Joel: Oh, that was it. Yeah. Get rid of the money and the, yeah. So. Chad: And he couldn't have any assets. Yeah. Joel: Anyway, the point of it is, it was entertaining as hell. Chad: Yeah. Joel: To watch this guy spin down the toilet and know that, know that the whole shit show is gonna end badly and that it was at least gonna be entertaining for everybody. And no one was really gonna get hurt other than him. Chad: Yeah. Joel: There's an element of this to me that's incredibly entertaining in a Brewster's millions type way. [laughter], I mean, you always think about having so much money that you don't give a shit. Elon Musk has so much money, he doesn't give a shit. And we get to watch it every day with crazy shit like going on CNBC and saying, go fuck yourself to like the top companies in the world, frankly. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Joel: So that's, it's very entertaining. If you don't like Twitter or X go somewhere else. I don't feel like, like unlike Facebook, Twitter's not destroying teens from what I can tell. Unlike TikTok, it's not the greatest propaganda machine for the, for the CCP of all time. You don't like Twitter, get the hell off it otherwise, or don't advertise on it. Don't watch it. But it's a fun train wreck for me at this point to watch. We enjoyed the hell talking about it. Let's talk about the jobs thing for a second. We didn't know what it would look like. Would it look like a little, little search bar on top of Twitter? Would it be in the sidebar? But that's hard because mobile is most of what Twitter is. So now it looks like it's a standalone x.com/jobs, and it's basically put in your keyword and put in your location. You can click the little map icon to get where you are. Chad: It's a job search. It's all it is. Joel: It's a job search. So there's, there's no, you can share a job. There's no bookmarking, there are no job alerts. All, all the sort of traditional things you think about when you think about these things. You can't really join like your Twitter account, it doesn't really wrap into applying. Chad: Why are they wasting their money on this? I don't understand. Joel: They've certainly partnered with Appcast to provide content. 'Cause most of the jobs I clicked on were Appcast. So they're at least making money on the clicks from Appcast. It looks like there's a deal with Greenhouse because a lot of, a lot of the jobs are Greenhouse, so maybe they're plugged into Greenhouse XXML feed or something. Chad: ATS feed. Yeah. Joel: Tesla jobs are all over the place, which I thought was interesting. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You know, all of Elon's stuff is gonna get preferential, treatment. Will it make 10 million a year? I like, are they gonna promote this thing, you can't post jobs on it. I assume if you have, if you pay for the job posting thing, those jobs are on the board. But the applies sometimes go directly to the job description. Sometimes they go just to the job search page. Chad: It's a mess. Joel: Which is a whole list of jobs, which you then have to go and find what job I was applying to. There's no direct apply. They should have called jib sink to like, direct apply to all these things. It's a mess. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it's early, they still are a big platform with a lot of people. This feels a lot like when Facebook had jobs for a while, and then it was just a mess. If they ever open the floodgates of you can, you can put a job up for free or for some cost, then it's just Craigslist, then it's just like, then it's just chaos and anarchy, which maybe Elon wants, but it's nothing to get excited about at this point. Go see if your jobs are there, I guess. And see how, how you feel about that. And does antisemitism come into play with your jobs being on this platform? Chad: That's the thing right there is. Joel: That's the thing, right? Chad: Yeah. Oh, I mean, it, it, think about it. All these companies who are literally, they're leaving. They, they're not interacting or engaging on, Twitter anymore. I mean, you've seen some of these, these marketing departments from some of these big companies. They've gone radio silent. Right? They, they're just not engaging anymore because they can't be a part of it, not just pulling down ad dollars. So what if you're using Lever or Greenhouse or, or one of these applicant tracking systems and your jobs just magically show up on Twitter? I would go fucking nuts. Joel: Yeah. Do you think Appcast has had a call yet around, why is my job on Twitter Because they're gonna get those calls. Chad: To this yeah. Oh, I'm gonna be reaching out to 'them after this, because I think about all the ad agencies that are using Appcast and whatnot. Do they know that their clients could prospectively be going to Twitter? Right? I mean, dude, there are just so many bad optics that are happening here for, for any brand, right? Unless you're a red balloon kind of company. Okay, great. Right? That's good for you. That's, that's awesome for you. But a lot of these companies do not wanna be associated with, with this bullshit. And they might be, their brand might be included, and they have no fucking idea that their brand is included. So, reach out to Greenhouse, to our friends at Appcast and so on and so forth to see, if, if they're getting the okay from these companies to be able to actually push them to Twitter. Because if they're not, oh, that's gonna, we're gonna have a, we're gonna have a whole fucking segment around that. Joel: Yeah. If you're listening and you're a blogger, if you need a good blog post [laughter], go look at all the advertisers that have, like left Twitter for this shit and see if their jobs are on the job board. And that that'll be a great post for you to get traffic about, all the companies that are on Twitter with jobs, even though they're not advertising with the company. Oh, it's just, it's just fun to watch. Chad: Whew. My headache just got worse. Joel: Alright. From one car crash to the other let's go to Amazon. Well, they finally have an answer to ChatGPT Chat. Amazon launched Q a generative AI powered business chatbot responding to competitors like OpenAIs ChatGPT, that was this week. I'm sure the folks at, 007, have nothing to say about the name Q as a, as a brand anyway. It, it aims to synthesize content, streamline communications, and assist with tasks. Q can do things like synthesize content. I just read that. I think. [laughter] Joel: Q can do things like synthesize content, streamline day-to-day communications, and help employees with tasks like generating blog posts. As well as aid employees with tasks like support tickets and policy inquiries priced at $20 per user monthly. It competes with Microsoft's and Google's enterprise Chatbots resources discuss AI management in the workplace and its potential in HR tasks. The first 100 customers get a complimentary toy penis rocket from Blue Origin [laughter] Okay, I made that last part up. But seriously, Chad, big deal. Little deal, or no deal. Chad: Yeah. I mean, late to the party's not a big deal for them because they, they have so much data to train on in the first place. I mean, this is just going to be a suite of services for all of these companies. I mean, you take a look at Microsoft, take a look at Google. This is gonna be a part of a, a part of the suite of services. I I really believe though, that the new big evolution of these large language models, is actually gonna be just around the data piece. So a large language model, if you think about it, is like a car. And the data is like the fuel. And much like the walled garden platform that have cut Google out of indexing their content over the years, the exact same thing's gonna happen here. So go back to the, my earlier shout out where journalists will start getting paid for their work on Google. Chad: Assessing training data or accessing training. Training data will, be the evolution of this same situation. You want to access the news. You pay, you wanna access the data you pay. Knowledge is power and access to that knowledge is gonna cost money. So who wins in the war? Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Anthropic. And much like the Canadians are doing, for journalists, we're going to have to build legislation around this as well. Just because I'm using Google, Gmail, G Suite, that doesn't mean I'm allowing Google to use my data to train their LLM. Same goes for Microsoft Windows 365 and all their other products. This is not just a, a conversation around the really cool AI, it's what's fueling the AI. And that's a lot of the contents like we're talking about again, for, for Google being shut out, and a lot of these, these walled gardens, how are they gonna pay? We need regulations. And that's gonna be the next evolution, I think. SFX: What are you doing step-bro? Joel: Do you remember when smartphones were all the rage? Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: After Apple made the iPhone, Android came out, which made sense. Open, you know, open source and all that. But then Microsoft had a phone. Amazon had a phone. Facebook had a phone. They did the software on it. And we sit here today with Coke and Pepsi, Android and iPhone for the most part. And AI to me is no different. You had open AI come the floodgates open, by the way, him coming back to the company. We, like, we touched on that on the, the Turkey show. But like, it's like, back to the future. It's all back to normal. We'll get a new board. We'll make a ton of money. It's all good. Anyway so to me, it's like, if you don't have AI, then you're just screwed. You look like a backwaters hick from an Australian dating show... Chad: Everybody's gonna have it. Joel: So, so all these companies are like, we gotta have an AI. So open AI, Google has barred, Llama or whatever, Lambda, Llama Lambda Alpha Lambda Lambda. Chad: Anyway, Lambda Lambda Lambda. Yeah. Joel: Revenge of the Nerds. I'll reference for those of you Gen Xers out there. Yeah. And now Amazon has to have, this chat bot. Now what's interesting is it's a, it's an enterprise work-related chatbot. So they're, coming at a different angle. Their one benefit is the AWS spin on it, because a lot of companies have their sites hosted on AWS. So if they push this thing to all the techies, all the CTOs out there, like, Hey, you're already using AWS here's this really cool workplace chat bot. We already have your content through your database that we're running on AWS, like, why not make a cool sort of conversational thing? And that uses all your data, from the company that you want some that does whatever they want. I don't know how that'll work. But that is the one in, they don't have to advertise this on TV. Like, Hey, if you got a, if you're at work, like use the AWS chatbot at work, they can just like wrap this in to a company's AWS account. And that way it could work. But I don't see a ton of people like getting all juiced up about Aw. About Q, Enterprise, chatbot. I just don't see it getting all that excited. Chad: Yeah. No, I, but, but I mean, it, it, think about it, this is just gonna be like cloud computing wise. It was, it was like everybody has it now. It's, it's just how you do business. These co-pilots are going to, to get better. All of those companies have cloud services. Right. AWS, Azure, Google Cloud. I mean, they all have cloud services. So Yeah. I mean, this is just gonna be something that everybody has. The biggest question is, once again, are they going to be able to use your data in the larger scheme of things to be able to train their large language models? That to me is, that's going to be the big question. Joel: Similar to the, the mobile wars, I guess. It really became a game of who has the apps that people want. Like where are people developing the apps? And that ultimately was the iPhone and Android. Blackberry's marketplace sucked. Everyone else sucked or didn't have enough traffic. So AI similar in that if you don't have the data, then it's kind of worthless. And if I were. Chad: It's like a car with no fuel. Joel: Like I, I argued back in the day that Microsoft should just give the best apps like a bucket of money and say you're gonna exclusively put Angry Birds. Or any, whatever was hot back then on Microsoft's platform and no other platform. So people would start buying Microsoft phones because that's where Angry Birds was. Chad: Xbox and Halo back in the day. Joel: And we're seeing this happen. If I'm the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, whatever, I'm going to all these companies and saying, who wants it? Who wants all their data trained on this stuff, on this great content? And it'll basically potentially strangle or suffocate all the other AI services or make them become niche around internal content or whatever. That could be a play. We'll see. But to me it's similar, like the apps or who's gonna win the data is who's gonna win if this thing becomes more of a commodity, who's gonna develop on it? Let's take a break and come right back and talk about LinkedIn. SFX: Alright. Alright. Alright. Joel: Alright, Chad, well let me start by saying congratulations on your 20th anniversary with, with LinkedIn this week. Chad: [laughter] Yes. Joel: You, my friend joined two years before me. 'cause I had to go check. I wanted to say 2005. Was when I got on LinkedIn. Now, at the time it was mostly a sales thing. You were a sales guy. I was, you know, I was marketing guy at the time, so I could see where you would be more, in tune with it than I was. But anyway, they've added a new feature. They're going after New Market. LinkedIn has enhanced its job search features, specifically for nurses aiming to cater to the 3 million nursing professionals on the platform. The updates include specialized filters for job searches, adding over 65 nursing credentials, and 35 skills to user profiles with nurse shortages and increasing demand. Various job sites, including Shift Key and Shift Med, have garnered significant investments reflecting the industry's growth. Chad, celebrate that anniversary and tell us what you think about LinkedIn's move into healthcare. Chad: Yeah, I mean, adding some filters here and there, credentials, and I mean, for, for a segment of their working population who doesn't frequent LinkedIn that much in the first place, I, I don't think it really matters. Right, what does make sense though, is becoming the lifestyle app for these workers. So, for example, as you can see, I actually wore my Harri gear today, but for example, like, Harri, they are an app that employees use on a daily basis. Why do they use it on a daily basis? When I want to check my work schedule, where do I go? I go to the Harri app. What about clocking in and clocking out the Harri app? What if I go, what if I'm in the ICU and I need to message my boss who's in their office and they're three floors away? Chad: Well, I go to the Harri app and, and I, I message them there. Right? That's how you become a lifestyle platform, right? And then, and then you build an ecosystem around that. Then you also have companies like Paradox who have started to move toward that applicant tracking system, right. Being the applicant tracking system being more of the actual, system for those workers, the frontline workers, these companies, these, these, the, the Harri's, the, the, the paradoxes, what have you. They're going to beat the shit out of, mark my words, the LinkedIns and the the Indeeds because they're going to be sticky and the employees are going to be there the entire time. They can build ecosystems, not just for employers, but for the entire frontline ecosystem itself. So if I want to get a shift and I'm working, you know, at this hospital today, and I want to go get a shift and I see that there's open, they already have my information, I'm in the system, I can pop over and I can run a shift shift over there. That's what tomorrow's workforce is definitely gonna look like for, for, for nurses. Right. And really a lot of frontline employees. So I don't think this does anything to move the needle at all for LinkedIn. You know, it's cute, it's nice. But to be quite frank, at the end of the day, it's just not gonna do what LinkedIn needs it to do. They need to move down the funnel. Joel: Yeah. By the way, we have some hidden footage from, the meeting where LinkedIn decided to, sort of get into the space. S4: Like that thing's giant. How many times bigger is it than Earth? Like. Joel: Okay, the part about the filters. Remember when Google came out with the ad about veteran... Chad: Oh God. Yeah. Joel: Categories is the wrong word they had filters for like, number, you know, you know this, this is your lane. Chad: Yeah. It was, it was a military occupation coach. And they fucked it up. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. It sounded great. Like as a non, a non-veteran, I watched, I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. That seems really, really awesome. And then you like, you, you peed on, peed in my Cheerios and said like, now this is bullshit [laughter] So I gotta think at some point, nurses are gonna look at these filters and whatever LinkedIn has done and said like, well this is stupid. This is bullshit. So techies hate LinkedIn. Developers hate LinkedIn. That's why they're on GitHub and all the other places. Because all they do on LinkedIn is get hit up by recruiters. They get no value out of being on LinkedIn other than I get recruited. So the people that don't want 18 calls a day from recruiters. Just say, I'm not on fucking LinkedIn. [laughter] And LinkedIn has pretty minimal privacy stuff. So it's like if you're on LinkedIn, you're gonna get hit up. I gotta think nurses either feel the same way or are going to feel the same way. The 3 million that they have, that's really a small number for someone like LinkedIn who has a global footprint the way they do. I gotta think the only people on LinkedIn and like our, our recent nurses, people that just got outta school and like heard you gotta be on LinkedIn, they're getting hit up... Chad: Or they're administrators. Joel: On the regular from, from recruiters. Yeah. So it's like nurses just like developers are not gonna like flock to LinkedIn because they have new filters for job search or whatever. Chad: No. Joel: So it's like really stupid. Now I will give them this, they will be able to go to every hospital, every healthcare system in the country, probably the world and get half of them to be like, yes, we want the new nursing, whatever, because we need nurses. So it's like... Chad: 'cause they're suckers. Yeah. Joel: They're gonna make money from this, they're gonna like, get companies use it and like Monster back in the day. And indeed today no one gets fired. 'cause they use LinkedIn, so they're gonna get people write checks to this. So in that, in that case, it's a win. But five years from now, we're not gonna be talking about LinkedIn as like this juggernaut healthcare, nursing, platform. Chad: No. Joel: Like it's, it's total. It's a, it's a, it's a really quick money play. It's like Twitter launching jobs. It's like people, the, you know, the strategy meeting at LinkedIn was like, how do we get a quick hundred million dollars? And someone said, nursing, let's target nurses [laughter] in the next 12, 24 months. They will make that, you know, a hundred million dollars or whatever. And then they'll be like, it's a big success. And then it'll, it'll fizzle out and like it'll be done. Chad: It Was the same, it was the exact same conversation that they had in the boardroom at Twitter. How are we gonna make some more money? Job search. We'll start our job board. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. We have that tape too from, from X. SFX: Just the two [laughter] Joel: All right. So, let's go to our next story. Unions are back in the news. SFX: Winning. Joel: Well, after smacking around Detroit's big three, the UAW has launched an unprecedented organizing campaign. Unprecedented is saying a lot for the unions. By the way, Chad, aiming to unionize thousands of non-union auto workers at over a dozen automakers in the us including Rivian, Lucid, and pretty much everything out of Japan and Germany. It covers nearly 150,000 workers, since winning, winning big. SFX: Oops. Winning. Joel: There it is. Since winning big various automakers have responded by raising pay, but the UAW asserts that non-union workers still lag behind in benefits and rights. Chad, your thoughts on this year's cinematic hit, the union strikes back. Chad: So Sean Fain is for real, and we called this a couple of weeks ago, so I'm not just gonna go ahead and, and retread this. Just go ahead and play the audio from earlier this month. Joel: Yeah. Right. Chad: This is all power to the people, there's a huge shift and the union side of the house. Hell, we're talking about non-union workers who are getting the UAW bump, right? Anybody who's not a part of the union, they're gonna get a bump. But what do you think that's gonna make them think about? Should I join the union? Toyota, 9% bump. Should I join the union? Maybe I could have got more. Should I join the union? You take a look at Tesla after, you know, Elon's bullshit in Sweden and Swedish Tesla workers are on strike. But even better dock workers are refusing to let Teslas into the country in solidarity. Why? Because they're like, you know what? That might not be my job. I might not be a Tesla worker, but they're a worker just like I am. I think we're finally getting to the point where it's like, Hey, I can actually feel your pain. Chad: And I understand that that could be me. Okay, so one word, momentum. Sean Fain has it, and Elon Musk does not. I mean, can you imagine the meltdown Elon would have if Tesla workers unionize? I mean, get the popcorn ready, kids. No shit. And as you'd said in, in a video, Fein points out that electric vehicle makers, Tesla, Rivian, and Lucid, they've reported huge profits then Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, 470 billion in profits over the, the past decade. So, I mean, he's, he's looking at the numbers. He, he's incredibly smart. He's being transparent about all this. And he's saying, look, we know what you're making. We know not only what you're making from a profit standpoint, but we know what you're making and you're actually pushing up in salaries, in bonuses to the people who aren't doing the work. And that's the fucking c-suite that people are doing the work deserve the, more pay. Chad: Right. And I mean, so this is, this is something that again, I really believe is resonating all over the United States. We used to be the individualism is, is key you know, contrary. And we see that, that did nothing but fuck us at the bottom line while other people were, were getting paid millions and millions and millions and more dollars. And they're like, wait a minute. That's why they want us to just think about ourselves. Right? 'cause when we do that, and we're not together, we're not as strong. So now they're starting to coalesce, they're starting to come together, and they're becoming stronger, and they're going to get more money out of it. I, I think it's, I think it's, it's just gonna happen. And I, I can't wait to see the, the union boom. Joel: Yeah. I can hear Elon saying, go fuck yourself to all his workers, yeah. As we speak. Chad: Good, good luck with that one. Joel: [laughter] Yeah. We're, we're capitalists on the way up in Socialists on the way down. Chad: [laughter] Can we find a middle ground? I mean, seriously. Joel: It's really interesting to me you remember when Meta launched, their metaverse thing, like they changed their name. They, they were all in on the metaverse. Until they found out the metaverse wasn't like gonna happen. At least not in the way that, that I and Zuckerberg, thought it would... Chad: [laughter] wanted it to. Joel: So what did they do? So what did they do? They said, we're gonna cut the budget for Metaverse. We're gonna get efficient around, our profits. We're gonna get serious about what we do Well, and their stock is like fucking blown to the moon. And their quarterly earnings report was insane in terms of like cutting costs, but making more money. It was ridiculous. So it's no surprise to me that this week we had news outta GM that they're cutting the budget of the cruise, the cruise department or cruise business. For better or worse companies are, the car companies are gonna be forced to look at what is profitable and what is like R&D money pit down the toilet investments. And it, to me, it bodes, it's not a great sign for automated driverless cars that they're getting out of this for, I mean, not getting out of it, but they're cutting the budget, and also reports that, electric vehicles aren't exactly what, the market thought it would be, or the government or, you know, like a lot of budgets that Ford and, and car companies are talking about spending on EVs is now getting pulled back. 'cause they find out, well, EVs look like shit. That's my own opinion. Tesla, Rivian, Fisker, they're the only ones that look good. I look at a Mustang EV and I want to puke [laughter] because I was of a, I'm at a certain age where Mustang to me is like 66 Mustang pa... Like muscle car speed. Joel: And I look at this, this CRV basically Mustang and I wanna puke. So anyway, EVs aren't happening. Automated driverless cars aren't happening. So companies, car companies are like, look, we got the union, tsunami coming. We need to start like getting serious about our business, start cutting costs, start, stop doing frivolous stuff. Leave that to the startups and the crazy ones, as Steve Jobs would say. So the good news is, I guess companies are like getting serious about paying workers because they know the unions are coming and they can't be spending frivolously on stuff that's not working, so for me, that's a good sign. Media's going through the same thing, right? Disney, we gotta get into streaming. Well, shit, streaming is like, not as much as this cash machine that we have over here, do we dump streaming? So companies are really coming to Jesus about what makes money, what doesn't, and shareholders are forcing their hand. But it's great to see that unions, in addition to getting workers what they're, they're due. They're making the marketplace work as it should and only put money behind the things that are actually working. And in this case, that means people. And that's a great thing for civilization and, America. Chad: Yes. Yes. And yes. Joel: And what else is great for America, Chad? Oh, the Rolling Stones are back. [laughter] Let's take a quick break. Alright, Chad, the Rolling Stones revealed their 2024 North American Hackney Diamonds Tour sponsored by Wait for it AARP. That's right. The organization for Americans aged 50 and above that includes us, Chad [laughter], with Mick Jagger at 80, Keith Richards at 79. How is that dude Still still pumping. Okay. Ronnie Woods at 76, the band released their first album since losing their original drummer, Charlie Watts back in 21. The tour span 16 cities with an exclusive presale for AARP members of which I am not Chad, I won't, I won't speak for you, but I refuse to join AARP the, the result of this presale. Well, that's right. You can guess. You can guess it. Chad [laughter], I've fallen and I can't get up. The AARP site crashed inspiring boomers everywhere to lament the days of camping out for multiple nights in real life to score tickets. I'm sure all those AOL dial-up accounts that still exist didn't help either. Talk about, can't get no satisfaction Chad, what are your thoughts on the Rolling Stones tour? Chad: Talk about prolific being able, not just to put out fricking music, but to be able to perform on stage. And I don't care if they, they don't have the energy that they used to or what have you. No fucking kidding. Mick Jagger's 80 years old so yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's amazing. I think, first and foremost, it, it, I can't believe it's taken them so long AARP to get them to get Rolling Stones on board, or at least an older act like them on board, and then the whole ticket sales thing. I mean, did we not learn from Taylor Swift? I mean, and her, like, just like buckling the internet for God's sakes. This shit's gonna happen. I mean, it, it reminds me back in the day when, monster and HotJobs did the, the Super Bowl commercials and HotJobs literally just went away. It went away for like a day because it [laughter] 'cause the traffic broke it. Right, this is what happened here. I don't, I don't know, understand why they can't be ready for load balancing and traffic these days. It's, it's crazy. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Chad. Chad: What? Joel: Hey, Chad. Chad: What? Joel: You can't always get what you want. [laughter] We out. Chad: We out. S16: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Chase podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas send bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads. Instead, now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Recorded live at the HR Tech Conference from the Fuel50 booth in Las Vegas, Chad & Cheese interviewed Jack Berkowitz, the Chief Data Officer at ADP. They discuss various topics such as ADP's data-driven approach, AI strategy, skills graph, personalized employee experiences, and the intersection of HR and marketing. Berkowitz highlights the importance of treating employees as consumers, leveraging data for talent acquisition and management, and the role of ADP Ventures in engaging startups. He emphasizes ADP's focus on data flow and its impact on delivering cohesive experiences across various HR functions. The conversation delves into ADP's commitment to respecting data rights, collaborating with government entities, and their excitement about AI advancements in their Gen.AI project. Berkowitz also mentions companies like Vizier and Workday, discussing their impact and contributions to the HR tech ecosystem. Overall, the interview emphasizes ADP's data-centric approach and its evolution towards personalized, impactful HR solutions. To learn more about Fuel50, visit https://fuel50.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Chad: Coming to you live from the Fuel50 booth at the heart of HR Tech, it's the Chad and Cheese podcast. We are diving deep into the world of HR technology, tackling workforce challenges with innovative solutions. And we'd like to give special thanks to Fuel50, the scienced-based talent marketplace that bridges skills gaps, unlocks hidden potential and supports better retention and engagement. Let's do this. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. What's up everybody? It's your bookies' favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel, joined as always, the dean to my Sinatra, Chad Sowash is in the house. We are recording live from the Fuel50 booth at HR Tech in Las Vegas. And we are happy to welcome Jack Berkowitz, chief Data Officer at ADP. Jack, I bet that works really well with the ladies at the bar. So a lot of people know ADP, a lot of people know data. Tell us about Jack, what makes you tick? Jack Berkowitz: What makes Jack tick? Well, I like hanging around paddling on the Chattahoochee drinking bourbon with friends. Joel: All work, no play makes you a dull boy. Jack Berkowitz: Yeah, exactly. Joel: Jack's my guy. Jack Berkowitz: A little bit of that, but then I also get into data, it's my job. So I do three things at ADP. One of them, probably most important thing is I build products for people. And so really interested in building data products that people enjoy to use, which is kind of hard. Chad: They'll actually adopt? Jack Berkowitz: Yeah, actually adopt and use. Second thing I do is I build the data platforms and work on things like that. And, now I'm working on our AI strategy across the company. And so we just launched some stuff called ADP Assist, which I just was talking about a few minutes ago, and keeps me busy. Chad: So many consumers are split, in my experience, in two groups. One that wants infographics and pictures to tell a story, and the others who want... Joel: Dashboards. Chad: Unlimited spreadsheets to geek out on. So how do you balance those two markets? Jack Berkowitz: Well, they're not really even different markets, and particularly with the new technologies, more of a continuum. Right? So think about it this way. I could sit down and I can ask the system to give me an answer or I could then easily pivot into the exploration and then pivot back. It used to be two markets, in fact, two totally different groups, but what we're seeing now in the technology is gonna be continuum, basically go across the surface and dive in. Joel: Gotcha. Jack Berkowitz: And I think that that's gonna be an interesting thing not just for HR people but for operational people that have HR concerns. I have several hundred people that work for me. I have more HR concerns than my HR team does. Chad: And how will generative AI play into that? So if you look at the travel industry, Expedia's building tools, Google, etcetera. Like, Hey, plan a trip for me to Greece between these days. Find me the cheapest hotel. Are we gonna be able to do that with data on the employment side as well? Jack Berkowitz: Yeah, we just did this example the other day. Show me people affected by the new 401k rules. Send them a message. Let them know that their deductions are gonna go up. Tell you what? Make it more personal. Don't make it sound like corporate America. Make it something personal so that they understand it. Give them some indications. So that'll be the type of experience that we give, won't maybe be as exciting as a trip, but again, it'll help people get the job done and let HR people get back to being HR people as opposed to being clerks. Joel: Let's geek out a little bit real quick. Let's go back to the days when big data was like the hot topic, big data. But at some point, all of that data, we didn't have the processing power to actually dig into. Are we finally there with GPUs, AI? I mean all these, different acronyms now that we have around data and tech, are we finally there where we can dig into that massive amount of data and actually make it mean something? Jack Berkowitz: Yeah. Yeah. I think we're close. Right? You hit it on the last part, the processing needed to be there and everything else. What is the meaning? Like what does that data mean? Because otherwise, you just had it sitting there and you had to do something with it, you had to spend hours and hours putting meaning on top of it. Joel: Trying To contextualize? Jack Berkowitz: Contextualize it. Even that example of a contribution plan, what's a contribution plan? You and I know what it is. Computer doesn't know what it is. And so technology's coming together now so that computer actually knows what a contribution plan is. Oh, you're talking about a 401k or a 403b? Oh, I meant a 403b. Oh, okay, here's the columns in this database associated with a 403b. I can start to bring it out. So it's the processing, but it's also this ability to drape the meaning across things in the context that you and I have as opposed to a computer. Joel: Gotcha. Chad: We talked a little bit about the HR side. We have a lot of recruiters listen to the show, a lot of TA professionals. Are you working on data points where I can say, "Find me a PHP developer, English-speaking, X amount of experience?" Is that recruiting process happening at ADP as well in terms of what you guys are building out? Jack Berkowitz: Yes. One of the things that we really focused on past couple of years was using all the data that flows through our systems to build a skills graph. And that skills graph... I mean they were talking about it on stage earlier, but that skills graph is 100% data-driven. And so it's just based on the people, the licensing, certifications, things like that. And our ability to ask that question now is spot on. I can even ask, "Tell you what? Find me people that help me balance my DE and I program out. Find me people that give me coverage for the customers I have." So I can... "Here's where my customers are. Help me find people that can cover those customers." So the system can automatically say, "Well, within 50 miles." It knows that, I don't have to tell it, it would just know these things. And so we're working on all of that stuff right now. Chad: Sounds like a very unbiased way of finding people. Talk about that and how you're trying to... Joel: Skills, certifications. Chad: Yeah, just data, it's only when the people get involved that shit gets messed up. Jack Berkowitz: Exactly. So that's pretty funny. We started the skills-based hiring because of DE and I and all the things about three years ago. And so since that time now, we can tell you not only about the skills, we can tell you what the skills add to somebody's paycheck. So what happens if a nurse gets a new license? I can tell you that she's going to make another $5230. Joel: Now, is that something that you can actually display to the employee so that they could actually see career-path wise? Jack Berkowitz: Yeah, exactly. So we're doing both of those. We're, A, giving it to the manager, but we're also giving it to the employee so the employee understands when they're taking training what's the benefit to them. It's great as a benefit to the company. Right? But that relationship between employee and company is transitioning. And you're seeing it. Right? Joel: Market power. Jack Berkowitz: We see market power. When we see it in the data even, you're seeing a shift of employees to smaller businesses. To you guys. Right? And you're seeing that shift because people have choices. And we want to create that environment so that the employee and employer have a balance in that. Joel: Well, in that case, we're seeing a ton of turnover. Attrition is ridiculous. Amazon was at $8 billion in attrition, that impacted the bottom line. Are companies finally focusing on internal in retention and being able to push people up through the ranks and being able to provide the internal opportunities today? Jack Berkowitz: So, yes, tech vendors, we're building tools for them, but we're actually seeing the companies do it. Joel: Well, that's the thing, is the adoption piece. Right? Jack Berkowitz: Yeah. So the nice thing for us is we got a million clients so we can actually see the impact of all this stuff happening across the population. Joel: A million clients. Jack Berkowitz: A million clients. Joel: That's scale. Chad: What a tough problem to have. Joel: I mean just the data, though. Think about the amount of fucking data. Jack Berkowitz: Yeah. Exactly. And we can see... Like one of our big things we did a couple of years here ago about DE and I, we can see pay equity gaps being closed. And we can see 1.5, $1.8 billion in gaps closed 'cause we can look across the client base. We can see, for example, companies adopting certain technologies, certain strategy, their time to fill decreasing by half. We can see boomerangs increasing by certain companies taking certain steps. So we know what people do. So what we're seeing in the data now isn't just the technology, but we're actually seeing the step-up in companies being smart HR companies, not HR technology providers, but individual companies being smart about their HR. We just bought a company two months ago called Sora, all about the experience, about people onboarding, or the journeys through, and making it a human experience, as opposed to a form letter experience, making it very personalized. Companies that do that... And they have great customer names like Etsy and Plaid. Right? Companies that do that have happy employees, boom, you get this retention, you get higher productivity, we cross-correlate that, we go get public numbers on companies' performance, and we can see it in the data. Chad: What you're talking about sounds a lot like marketing. Are you having conversations with companies' marketing departments? Are recruitment ad agencies looking at the data differently? In terms of these questions around retention and better marketing to these folks, talk about the bridge that the data can take to marketing and what kind of questions companies should be asking. Jack Berkowitz: I don't know that we're having enough conversations like that yet, but you're spot on as to where we all need to go. Right? HR departments need to market. They're the representative of the company. Joel: They're the beating heart of the entire organization. Yes. Jack Berkowitz: I looked at... I was looking at marketing technology in HR recently, and I was super interested in... There's a company, Pandologic out there. Right? And so Terry Baker was the CEO, I got to know him really well. And I was super interested in the way they were using marketing technology and applying it to sourcing. Sora is actually a spin out of a marketing technology company to do marketing internal. Their architecture looks like an e-commerce marketing company, but we're doing it for HR. And I think HR people thinking about themselves in that way, it'll be a bit of an adjustment. That's exactly where the industry needs to go. Joel: So as Keith Sonderling, the EEOC commissioner pops by... Jack Berkowitz: Yeah, Keith's sitting right there, He's waving. Joel: He was on the show earlier. How much of an impact do you see government driving development, new product, and really the focus of your customers? Jack Berkowitz: Well, it's really a partnership. Right? I think the best thing, and it's great to see Keith 'cause it's on my mind. Chad: He can't quit us, by the way. He can't quit us. Joel: He just can't quit. Jack Berkowitz: But it's that partnership between the regulators of the government for doing what's right for people. Joel: But are you guys engaging them because you know that you've got to be a part of the discussion? Jack Berkowitz: Definitely, we're part of the discussion. We, just ourselves, Indeed, Workday, just issued a joint statement about data rights and personal protections of employees. We took a decision as a company a few years ago to treat the employees of our clients as consumers. Right? As consumers with all the consumer rights associated with that. So it's a partnership with the government, it's not so much we're reacting, it's the right thing to do. And so we're going to be right out in front, making sure at any point through your career, you're going to be going through an ADP system. We have a responsibility to make sure that we're treating that data with respect and that we're treating people with respect 'cause otherwise, get out of the human business. Right? Leave human resources, leave human... Right? It's about people. Right? Our new tagline, "always designing for people," it's because we think about that person at the center of everything we do. Joel: What's the most exciting product that you are working on right now? 'cause you've got a ton of products. You're a big frickin' organization. Right? What is the thing that, really, you get up in the morning and the first thing you think about is that project? Jack Berkowitz: Well, I got to be honest with you. Since the step change that we saw with GPT-3 and 4 eight, nine months ago, I am 100% working on GenAI and our ADP Assist product every single day. And I'm so jazzed because I was telling somebody after my talk today, we had built a whole bunch of components, but they were all these sort of separate things, you went to this part of the app or that part of the app. And now our ability to actually just start to combine these components, we get freaked out because new capabilities emerge. We're suddenly asking it things, and it's responding because it's using these components collaboratively. Now, obviously our engineers are hooking it up, but wow, look at this! So every day, every single day, I'm learning more and more about the technology we had built. I'm super excited to see people using it. We fielded some of our first GenAI stuff back in July, and so now we got the first iteration of people using it and seeing the questions that they're using. That's what jazzing me every single morning. Chad: It's a little early, but you guys just announced ADP Ventures, which will be an investment arm. What kind of access, engagement... Will you be working with some of these startups? Will they have access to what you're learning and what the data is telling you? Jack Berkowitz: Yeah, so we're putting that all together. Like you said, it's a little bit early, but definitely, we're going to be a little bit more active with those startups in terms of bringing them together. Look, we have a great startup environment to begin with. Our marketplace has 400 different companies on the marketplace. They all have access to ADP customers. We cosell, and people get these great emergent experiences. Imagine that on steroids. Right? So we made a few investments, we'll be making some more investments, we'll be talking about when data needs to play in those things, I'll spend time with them. Usman Khan, Oz, is the guy running that. He's my peer. We both work for the same dude, and we're super excited about that. Oz and I were at dinner last night, just so pumped up about this move by the company. Joel: So you have so many products across the board, I mean from end to end. How do you keep it straight? I mean not to mention, you've got all of these data points that could follow through from talent acquisition to talent management, upskilling, reskilling, all these things. How do you keep all of that for your million-plus customers? How do you keep that straight? Chad: Jack is really, really smart, Chad. Jack Berkowitz: No, no. Look, First of all... Joel: Yeah. I hope. Jack Berkowitz: First of all, I got a great team. One of the things that we did was really that point of that flow. We thought about data differently, I think. A lot of people think about data as sort of landing and staying in places. We think about it as flowing. Right? We move over $3 trillion a year, flowing through our systems to pay paychecks and taxes and stuff. So for us, it's all about data flow. So we built a data layer that flows, data flows through all those experiences. So you come in and you say, "Hey, here's my skills." Well, guess what? When you show up, your learning system is already ready for you that first day. Right? Your 401k starts to figure out, "Oh, here's the things that you need to do." So all those pieces start to come together in a pretty cohesive thing tied together through that data layer. Right? Now, some of the products are a little bit more mature, less mature. And so some of those things will disappear, like the old products people are used to, but that data layer becomes the enabler for all of that to happen. We're getting better and better at what we should be doing, which is providing the right expertise along with the right products for our customers. Chad: Jack, we're here at HR Tech. Big show, a lot of vendors, a lot of technology. Curious if there are any companies that have piqued your interest. And if you don't want to drop any names of companies, are there any themes that have piqued your interest or curiosity? Jack Berkowitz: It's crazy. I was talking to somebody a little while ago. I remember coming here in 2014, I think it was. Maybe 2015, it was about two booths, a card table, and some crackers. Obviously, the ones that are using AI get my attention simply because... Professional jealousy. Chad: So everyone here. Jack Berkowitz: Well, some professional jealousy. Joel: Well, but that's the question, though, because there's a lot of AI talk, but is there really a lot of AI happening? Chad: A lot of sizzle or is there some stake out here? Joel: Yeah. Is there some stake out there? Jack Berkowitz: There's some stake out there. I mean I'll talk about a couple of them, and I compete against them, but at the same time, I can respect them. I'm always respectful of what Visier is doing. Right? When it was all about visualizations, they had the best visualizations. Think about 10 years ago. And now you look at V, and it's like, That's nice. Now I can get my time-to-value much faster than them. So there's always give and take. I always like Eightfold. I think they bring something interesting to the table. And I spent my years at Oracle, I'm always respectful of Oracle. And we announced a big partnership with Workday a couple of weeks ago, So I think Workday does great work, but I'm more interested in just watching the industry grow because, really, it's about the ecosystem. ADP really is the center of the ecosystem. So for us, it's really about seeing all of this grow and seeing all the... Look at the number of people that were in Burson's keynote this morning. Right? There must have been 6-8000 people there. I was amazed by that. And so for us, we just want the ecosystem to grow. The ecosystem grows and things are fantastic. Chad: You're the center of the ecosystem and Chad and I are just a couple of satellites in the distance. Joel: Oh, yeah. Chad: Thanks for hanging out with us in the Fuel50 booth, Jack. For our listeners who want to know more about you or connect, where should they go? Jack Berkowitz: Well, LinkedIn is always good. @jpberkowitz on Twitter, and I've a lot of Twitter followers, but find me on LinkedIn, retail on LinkedIn, best way to get me. Joel: Excellent. Chad: Love it. Well, all this sizzle and steak talk has me a little hungry, Chad. When's dinner? Gotta be soon. That's another one in the can. We out. Joel: We out. INTRO: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Recorded live at the HR Tech Conference from the Fuel50 booth in Las Vegas, Chad & Cheese sit down for a candid conversation with Philip Dur, co-founder of Peakspan Capital. They discuss partnering with growth-stage companies post-product market fit, offering domain expertise and capital. Dur also highlights focus, talent, and scalability challenges for startups on our space, and they also delve into investment strategies, avoiding trendy markets, focusing on high-impact solutions, and foreseeing societal responsibility in HR tech. To learn more about Fuel50, visit https://fuel50.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Chad: Coming to you live from the Fuel50 booth at the heart of HR Tech, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. We are diving deep into the world of HR technology, tackling workforce challenges with innovative solutions. And we'd like to give special thanks to Fuel50, the science-based talent marketplace that bridges skills gaps, unlocks hidden potential and supports better retention and engagement. Let's do this. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It's your blackjack table's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman, joined as always, the Siegfried to my Roy, Chad Sowash. We are recording live from the HR Tech Show in Las Vegas from the Fuel50 booth. Chad: Tigers everywhere. [applause] Joel: And we're excited to welcome Philip Dur. Chad: He's a Tiger. [laughter] Joel: He is... Phil Dur: I wish I was wearing stripes. Joel: The co-founder and managing partner at PeakSpan Capital. Chad: Woo. Joel: That sounds really fancy. Chad: Like those glasses. That doesn't... Joel: And the jacket. Phil Dur: It's awesome to be here with the two of you. Joel: You didn't have to take off the ascot for our show, by the way. [laughter] Joel: You could have kept it on. Phil Dur: Well, it's a little warm in here. Chad: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a very good point. Joel: Oh, it's gonna get hotter in this episode. Phil Dur: Oh boy. Here we go. Chad: So give us a little, Twitter bio of you. Phil Dur: Yeah, yeah. So I've been partnering with entrepreneurs for 26 years. Just joined my 41st board, which is amazing. Chad: Holy shit, 41st? Phil Dur: And I see that... Isn't that crazy? Chad: Wow. How do you keep it together after that? Phil Dur: Well, they're not all at the same time. Chad: Okay, good. Joel: It's not like women. Phil Dur: Wow. Chad: Oh, okay. [laughter] Phil Dur: Oh, my gosh. Joel: Which you have, anyway... Chad: I can only, I can only take care of one, okay? Joel: Back to Philip, back to Philip. Chad: Too much. Phil Dur: 26 years working with entrepreneurs, which is amazing. I pinched myself that I get the privilege to work with these incredible pioneers and innovators. My firm is 27 Folks in New York at Silicon Valley. We've got a billion dollars of committed capital, $585 million most recent fund. And we, I think we fill a gap in the market. We partner with what I call emerging growth stage companies. So it's when you're through the product-market-fit woods. Chad: Gotcha. Phil Dur: And it was really hard. Like you really had to focus to get through those woods. Chad: So we talking A stage? Phil Dur: It's funny 'cause our companies will typically bootstrap or quasi bootstrap to five to 10 million in revenue, so even though they have real scale, we're usually their first institutional investor. And they're bringing us in because they've gotten through those product-market-fit woods, and now they find themselves at the foot of a mountain called go to market scaling and mechanization. And that's where we come in with capital and more importantly, domain expertise and experience and an awesome network to help them crush that. Chad: Now, do you find at that point that many startups, you've got a lot of startup founders that are out there, great people, great vision, but once you get to growth, that's an entirely different animal. Do you find that at that point you have to have a hard discussion and say, "We need to bring... " Joel: Are you the one that brings the adults in the room, is the question. Chad: [laughter] Do you bring bring the adults in the room? That's a great way to say it, Joel, because this is very hard for many founders to understand that it's just a different animal going from founder stage to growth stage to IPO, etcetera, etcetera. Phil Dur: It's a really excellent question. I would say most founders think that establishing product-market-fit is the hardest challenge they're gonna see in their journey. [laughter] Phil Dur: And I tell them no, it is a hard challenge. But scaling your business with real repeatability is even harder unfortunately. I'd say that one of the things that we do a lot of is kind of increasing talent density, right? So typically when we partner with our founders, they're torch jugglers, they're running sales, they're running product. They're the part-time CFO. And so over time we'll help augment that team so that we can really kind of concentrate and reinforce their superpowers, if that makes sense. And different founders will have different... I've had some founders who are the best strategic salespeople on the planet. I have other founders whose superpower is their product. And so it's all about identifying where can you have the most impact as a leader in your business and complementing you at the right team members. Chad: Right. Some founders are revenue sales focused... Phil Dur: That's right. Absolutely. In their DNA, like they're amazing at it. Chad: And some are tech and they're developers. Phil Dur: That's right. Chad: Does it matter to you guys? Is there really a sweet spot for you guys when you're looking at a founder that you want to... Joel: I'm guessing the best is both. Phil Dur: Yeah. But you rarely see it, right? Like most people, unfortunately, are not polymaths when it comes to being excellent at all things at the same time. [laughter] Chad: Yes. Phil Dur: I'd say that we always wanna start with a couple of essential ingredients. One is you gotta have a good product. Second, we try and avoid whatever's in the white hot chewy center of whatever Silicon Valley based venture capital's interested in. [laughter] Phil Dur: Because Silicon Valley venture capital is like, they're like rabbit farmers, right? They get excited about a category. And then if you fast forward like eight quarters, there's 12,000 companies that are all going after the same small addressable market. So we look for entrepreneurs that have a great product. They live in a relatively dense meaning favorable competitive environment. And what they're doing is something that matters and has impact. And those tend to be the best partners for PeakSpan. Joel: Name some names. Give us some of your like big exits, your most sort of... Chad: Portfolio, baby. Portfolio. Joel: High profile. Yeah. Phil Dur: I'll give you some early hits in my career. So one of my first investments that I ever worked on was in a business called Plateau Systems, which was a great LMS, not a great name for a software company, Plateau Systems, but great software business that was acquired by Success Factors and now is SAP's LMS. Joel: Okay. Chad: Nice. Phil Dur: I was privileged to join the board of at the time, small business called HireVue, and they were about 3 million in revenue scale. And it's great to see them as one of the leaders and pioneers here now. Within the PeakSpan portfolio, Fuel50 is obviously an amazing partner of ours, but we also work with a number of other businesses. There's a company called Epignosis. Their flagship product is called TalentLMS. And they have probably 11x'ed revenue scale in the four and a half years that we've been partners. Chad: That's two LMSs right out of the gate. Is there a focus on the LMS side of the house? Phil Dur: So I'm not... I don't need to be particularly clever. I look for big pain points. Chad: Yes. Phil Dur: And we lean into those. So we think that if you look at the shortage of talent that is facing North American, Western European companies in particular, over the next several decades, there's gonna continue to be a massive focus on re-skilling and up-skilling, and how I can be super creative about addressing those needs, yes, with external candidates, but also with the folks that work for me currently. So we've made investments in businesses like TalentLMS, which is a high velocity LMS for departmental and mid-size businesses. We're partnered with an incredible business called Arist that serves enterprises with a continuous learning solution. The flow of work, they basically break down your content into micro courses, and they deliver that through Slack Teams and text. It's almost like putting your reps in every day as opposed to sitting in front of a screen for two hours. We work with a business called Bongo Learn that does video based training and assessment with AI to... Joel: I'm sensing a theme here, Chad. A lot of L words. Phil Dur: We also obviously... I mean, Fuel50 is right at the forefront of helping you develop your internal talent to meet your future needs. Joel: I think one of the criticisms of investment firms is that they tend to chase the shiny thing. So if CNBC's talking about AI, well, we gotta get into AI. If they're talking about remote work, well, God, we gotta get headfirst in remote work. It sounds like you guys are a little more disciplined in that. Talk to the shiny thing trend and how you guys stay focused on apparently the learning side of development and employment. Phil Dur: My analogy for what you just described, have you all seen the movie? I've got an 18-year-old and a 20-year-old, but when they were tiny, tiny, I embarked on a wonderful relationship with the Disney franchise. There's a movie called "Finding Nemo" that you probably have heard of. Chad: Oh, yeah. Phil Dur: Great scene in that movie... Joel: Just keep swimming Phil. Chad: Swimming baby, Dory. Phil Dur: Great scene in that movie where Dory pops up out of the water near a pier and there's a bunch of seagulls sitting there and one Seagull sees her, and she says, "Mine." And then all the other seagulls go, "Mine, mine, mine, mine, mine." That is the US venture capital industry in a hot second. [laughter] So what happens in my industry is something gets hot and I can actually show it to you in the data. We can actually go back and look at company starts and media mentions. Right now it's GenAI. Before that it was e-scooters. Before that it was big data. [laughter] And as soon as that topic gets hot, everybody's gotta have their play. Chad: Yes. Phil Dur: And so you see this massive increase in the number of companies going after the same opportunity. And if you fast forward three or four years later, sadly there's like two or three players that own 80% of the segment value and the rest are struggling to find a home. It's not a great way for entrepreneurs to build value. Not a great way for us to harvest and accrue value for our stakeholders. So we tend to look for business, I'll use Fuel50 as an example. If you look at the competitive set going after their segment of talent, marketplaces, intro mobility, and career pathing, you've got some really credible players, Gloat and Eightfold and Fuel50, but given the size and quality of the market opportunity, you don't have like 60 that you can rattle off. Right? Chad: Right. Phil Dur: And we as investors and partners find that when we're working with our teams to be an exceptionally compelling dynamic, got a huge market opportunity, it's something that's hard to do. So there's natural walls and moats. And there's very few vendors that are actually doing it with grace and elegance. Chad: Well, talk a little bit about the due diligence, if you would, because we've seen, and we will continue to see a shit ton of vaporware that's out there. There's a over promise, under deliver, and a lot of that has to do with the sugar rush of the cash that came in in the first place. Phil Dur: Yeah, you bet. Chad: And the explosion of some of these TAMs and we'll say Eightfold for... They started off with a very short, small TAM that was focused on parsing and matching. And now they do everything, which to me, come on, how can you explode that fast? So you see those types of things every single day. If I'm a founder and I want to go after cash and funding and I get cash and funding, what does that TAM, how do you play with that TAM from founder to founder to founder? Because sometimes it just explodes. But then you see some organizations that stay hyperfocused. What's the right answer? Is there a right answer? Phil Dur: There's no perfect right answer. I think if you try as a small business to go after too large an addressable market early in your development, in my experience, in my quarter century doing this, it's a little bit like when your kids try and play 10 sports at the same time. [laughter] The odds of them being good at any of them go down dramatically. Whereas when you see people that are really exceptional in what they do, they wake up every morning and they just try and get a little bit better at that sport. The other analogy I use with my entrepreneurs is, I'm not telling you that you can't go after that big grand vision someday. But it's a little bit like dropping a pebble in a pond. Let's not go after the sixth ring first, let's focus on that immediate ring that we created right around the pebble. Phil Dur: And once we've really crushed that ring, then we expand to the next ring. And the beauty of that to your question is your team wakes up every morning and they know exactly what they're doing. Product knows who they serve. Customer success has seen all the problems and objections. They know how to speak the language of the customer. Your sales team knows how to sell to that ICP in their sleep. Your marketing team is making the same content over and over again, so they get really good at it. It's like anything else in life. Practice makes perfect and focus trumps in expertise. So, I'm a huge believer in focus first for most businesses. Chad: Gotcha. Joel: I wanna touch on societal responsibility. Phil Dur: Sure. Joel: And we touched on chasing the next shiny thing. There was a period in our business where diversity, equity, and inclusion was a hot topic. The George Floyd murders, the Me Too movement. There was a lot of money going into companies focused on inclusivity and diversity. That seems to have dried up, that seems to have hit companies where Wall Street Journal reported a lot of companies are laying off their DEI management team or whoever's in charge of that. Does capital have a responsibility to continue to push the envelope around these social issues? Or is it strictly a market decision to say the money's not there anymore, we're gonna go somewhere else? Phil Dur: I actually prefer to be an optimist. And when you said that... Joel: Well, that's no fun. [laughter] Phil Dur: When you said that, what immediately went through my head was actually some conversations that we've been having. In my role, we don't need to be that smart. We talk to buyers. So we talk to CHROs, we talk to people leaders and we stitch together those conversations and pattern match. And that's how we get excited about new and emerging themes where we feel like innovators and pioneers can have an impact. One of the areas that I'm hearing CHROs talk a ton about even in this market, which is a tough market because budgets have been slashed and people are feeling a lot of constraint. They felt abundance two years ago, and they're not feeling abundance today. The couple of the key areas that we hear people talking about over and over again that I think are exciting is, one is pay equity. Pay equity is a super important and hot topic right now, which I think is encouraging. Chad: Yes. Phil Dur: And by the way, way overdue and needed. Second is we hear people talking about a real desire to have better workforce analytics. So, before we can address some of the questions and problems that you're talking about, we first need to understand what the heck is the state of play. And what's embarrassing is I think most mid-market enterprise people leaders would tell you if they were being honest, they have no clue what their organization looks like. And so I think we first need to make sure that we understand what does the state of the union look like. And then I prefer to be optimistic and think that leaders have good intent and that we will correct these things over time. That's my view. It keeps me energized. Chad: You know where intention takes you, right? Phil Dur: You're gonna be negative now, aren't you? I'm just a guy. Chad: I'm just saying... So from our standpoint, intent has been wonderful, but it hasn't moved the ball. It hasn't. We love to talk about pay equity, but the only way we're gonna get there is through government intervention. If it wouldn't have been, then we would've done it years ago. Phil Dur: But that's coming too. So we see EU and US states moving more and more to transparency which is I think an essential ingredient to pay equity. And you've got some amazing vendors. There's businesses here like Compa that are crushing it with an awesome novel approach to providing that transparency and decisioning for enterprises. There's companies Figures in Europe that are doing the same for the European market. So look, I hear you all, I'm not in any way ignoring or taking any currency from your observation, but I'm in the business of being an optimist. That's how I wake up every day and get motivated. And so I do think we're gonna hit these issues and see improvement. Joel: Does government regulation drive investment decisions and should it? Chad: Hell, yes. [chuckle] Phil Dur: Government regulation can be a massive catalyst to investment decisions because it will drive customer behavior. Chad: Oh, yeah. Phil Dur: And vendors will respond to customer behavior, we see that all the time. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So we've seen a massive shift. We saw '20 to '22 free money, unicorns everywhere in every industry. That's dried up. We're starting to see some cracking of the ice with HiBob getting investments, Harry just got a big investment. I just wanna get your take on the world that was, the world that is and the world that will be in terms of how money is being freed up. Phil Dur: Yeah. So, one benefit of having done this for 26 years is this is my fourth economic correction that I've seen as an investor, that 2020 to 2021 period was the most buoyant that I've seen in my career. I think referencing that as a baseline or as a comp is probably not the right mentality for an entrepreneur to have. Chad: No. [laughter] Phil Dur: But I think that there are things that are just true. So going back to our comment around focus, focused vendors I think will always trump. People that have the best product in their category will always have access to capital. I think we went through a period and you guys were referring to as sugar rush. We went through a period where people were looking for candy all the time. And what they learned, unfortunately is that candy is not good for you. [laughter] Phil Dur: It feels good, in the moment, but it's not good for you. Chad: Yeah. Phil Dur: We're here at Vegas. Joel: Everything's good for you here. Phil Dur: The all-you-can-eat dessert buffet looks good, but it's not good for you guys. Joel: Wait, where's that? [laughter] Joel: Where's that? [laughter] Chad: Don't tell him. Phil Dur: So I'd say, a lot of the companies that we work with are bootstrapped or hyper capital efficient before we show up. And you should see the return that these companies are able to glean from the capital that we contribute because they're athletic. Their DNA is around taking any dollar they get and really making it go far. Chad: Oh, yeah. Phil Dur: And the beauty of that is that you can create the most extraordinary wins for everyone, for your employees, certainly for the founders and for your investors at outcomes that are very different than what some of the valley companies require to make everybody feel satisfied. Chad: Yeah. Phil Dur: Sometimes those expectations are very hard to meet. Joel: Phil, thanks for hanging out with us here in the Fuel50 booth. Phil Dur: This is awesome. You guys rock. This is so much fun. Chad: Thanks, Phil. Joel: For our listeners and particularly those startups out there that may be looking for some capital, where would you send them? How can they connect with you? Phil Dur: Come, see us, reach out to us. All of our contact detail is at peakspancapital.com, and I wanna thank the two of you. This is awesome. Chad: Thanks, man. Phil Dur: And if I can ever rejoin you, I'd love to do it. So thanks for your time. Chad: Amen. Joel: Philip McCracken, I mean, Philip Dur, everybody. He's the co-founder and managing partner at PeakSpan. That is another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Recorded live at the HR Tech Conference from the Fuel50 booth in Las Vegas, Chad & Cheese interview Doug Shagam, Head of People Data and Insights at Johnson & Johnson. Shagam shares his unconventional journey from aspiring drummer to data analytics, emphasizing the power of people analytics and storytelling in HR. He discusses integrating multiple HR platforms, democratizing data, and shaping J&J's talent acquisition. Highlighting their J&J Learn program, he explores skills inference, employee growth, and the significance of sharing the company's vision with its workforce. Shagam's insights reflect the intersection of data, technology, and employee experience in HR. To learn more about Fuel50, visit https://fuel50.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Chad: Coming to you live from the Fuel50 booth at the heart of HR Tech, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. We are diving deep into the world of HR technology, tackling workforce challenges with innovative solutions. And we'd like to give special thanks to Fuel50, the science-based talent marketplace that bridges skills gaps, unlocks hidden potential and supports better retention and engagement. Let's do this. Chad: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It's your bookie's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman, joined as always, The Edge to my Bono, Chad Sowash [chuckle] and we are recording live from the Fuel50 booth at HR Tech in Las Vegas. So we are excited to welcome Doug Shagam, Head of People Data and Insights at Johnson & Johnson. Doug, welcome to the podcast. Doug: Thanks so much. It's a privilege to be here. Joel: Did you know that your last name, Shagam, auto-corrects to Shazam? Doug: I did but most people remember me because of Austin Powers. [laughter] And it's Shagam, baby. Joel: Shagam, wow. Chad: Shagam, baby. That's a good call. That's a very good call. Joel: If only your parents knew that one day their last name would default to Shazam. [laughter] So anyway a lot of our listeners don't know you, I'm guessing. Give us a quick Twitter bio about what makes Doug tick. Doug: Truly on Twitter you can see that I am a guy who really is a drummer by training. I started out my career at Julliard. And then my parents said, all right so how are you gonna actually live, like pay for your family, pay expenses, do things? I'm like, oh, all right. Joel: Did you say have you not known like Keith Moon, John Bonham? Like you could make... Doug: Yeah, I pointed out like there are some pretty cool drummers who have been very successful. And they're like, no we're gonna give you four choices. They start with letters A, B, C or D. You could be an attorney, you could be a banker, investment type preferably, C, CPA or doctor or dentist. So admittedly I tried for the whole doctor thing until I realized that you actually need a higher GPA than a BAC [laughter] to get into one of these medical schools things. So I said all right that's not gonna work. So spent an extra year degree in political science and realized well I could work at Blockbuster back then. Not exactly gonna provide stable... Good idea but then is it gonna work? Chad: Great access to films, I mean. Doug: Tons. And watched plenty, trust me. I went to school in Buffalo right across Niagara Falls. So easy access to... Joel: I need to interject that he went to a MAC school, I attended Ball State so little brothers in arms here for the MAC. Doug: Love it. Love it. Love it. Joel: A little shout out to the MAC. Yeah, go ahead. Keep going. Chad: I love the MAC. Doug: So ended up getting my MBA and fortunately I had a little help from a friend, namely a family member who was a chief medical officer at GE. Chad: Ah. Hello. Joel: Again proving it's not what you know, it's who you know. Doug: It's always about who you know. Got into GE in their FMB program and realized after the two years of training, very nice to meet Jack Welsh, brilliant man, learned a whole lot but also realized I am not a finance dude. So it started there and a lot of my learning and lessons came from that and progressed into analytics, people analytics and love the fact that work that I and my team does can actually make an impact on people where they spend a lot of their life really. Joel: So you were a blast at parties. You went from aspiring drummer to data guy. Doug: Yeah. And I'm now like 10,000 Malcolm Gladwell hours, dude. [laughter] I'm the guy who, no joke, like saw in the sixth grade some dude playing drums and I'm like, wow, he's got a lot of people watching him. I wanna be that guy. Went into training band the next day, met my guidance counselor, signed up and he's like, shit, he's good. [laughter] So turned out... I went through some lessons, figured out that I had this thing called relative perfect pitch, I can play anything on a piano if I've heard it and... Joel: No. Doug: Honestly. Joel: Really? Doug: Great bar trick especially after a couple of bourbons. Really good. Joel: Well, we love going down this musical party avenue. [laughter] But let's talk about your role at J&J and what you're doing that's exciting. Doug: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm the Head of People Data and Insights which really sounds exciting. It's more people analytics really if I break it down into two words. And from the start of just gathering what are the right data elements to collect, the right variables. What are the questions that people really wanna know answers to, to what actions will they take from that and making sure that it's democratized. We don't wanna keep data in jail. I've always said most of these core systems that exist, they're powerful, they're huge. But how many people can really access them and understand them? And when we talk about an employee's lifecycle that's what we care about. Understanding what are those moments where we can access data to really help improve impact and drive outcomes. Chad: Well, and then actually tell the story around that data. 'Cause data doesn't tell its own story. You've got to tell that story. Doug: So true. Data's unemotional. And nobody wants to read pivot charts for a living. Chad: No. Doug: Right. Nobody does. Chad: Some people do but they're boring as hell. Doug: Well, yeah. I mean come on. Joel: They don't wanna be drummers. [chuckle] Doug: Who wants to do that. I mean come on. So you've got to have people who are great storytellers who can influence and make decisions and bring it to life. It's like reading a book is great, it's important, you need to do it but when you have somebody who can tell the story of the book, now that's powerful. And that's what we wanna create, a culture. And we wanna make sure that not just the HR people who are great, do that, we want business leaders. These are people who manage P&Ls. We want them to do the same. And they're very willing to do the same with human capital data. We want people who are... Even our employees to know, well, how many people do we have in the company? Are we hiring more people? Tell us about how many more we've made. So basic stuff like that is so important to us. Doug: And when we think about talent acquisition that's our big play right now. For the next three years, this is our big focus area. And bringing not the old school way of thinking about TA but understanding, people have skills, people have experiences, people have all these different attributes that we wanna bring at this front, not at the back to the table for our recruiters, our hiring managers to help make better more informed decisions. Because that's where the gold is. I mean heck, I'm sure ChatGPT could write a great resume for me. No question about it. But I'm old school and I don't wanna just take a job description and have ChatGPT do it. I wanna understand what's reality. I wanna measure it. I wanna do a side by side. My dream, I want... All right, maybe two monitors, I'm a little old but two screens. I wanna have one screen that shows my internals, one shows my externals and I wanna be able to understand tell me when I measure all these different pieces who should I be selecting for? 'Cause I got 578 people apply for one job that I had. Chad: Yeah. Because of scale. So back in the day when we were passing around paper resumes and applications and those types of things we didn't have to deal with the scale that we deal with today. And now we've got the opportunity of new scale with AI. So you being able to scale, a lot of this can't happen just in one platform. So how many platforms are you trying to sew together to create this ability to tell that story that you're talking about? Joel: How many cats are you herding? Doug: If I told you we are close to triple digits I'd probably be... Joel: Oh, my God. Chad: Of tech platforms? Joel: Of tools? Doug: Of general HR platforms. Chad: Okay. Doug: TA is not up there. They're in the double digits in fairness but... Joel: Totally. Doug: There's overlaps between different things and we don't use them as probably as bestly as we should. And that's where we've got opportunities. So part of why we look to figure out what's next on our horizon is just for these reasons. It's because... There's some great companies out there who have outstanding things but how does it all tie together? 'Cause I don't wanna use somebody who just does video recruiting to have to go to somebody else who just does skills assessment to somebody else who just does this or somebody else who does that. Which is probably how many companies have done it and admittedly how we have too. Can I find somebody who can integrate these things, bring it together and give me that whole experience in one so that it's easy, it's simple and we place the candidate at the center and that's what matters most to us. Joel: Are there any of those tools that are invaluable that you couldn't live without? And is there any effort at J&J to build your own tools in terms of the data that you're collecting and how you're analyzing it? Doug: I always think there's opportunities to explore or build strategy but what I've learned across 25 years of experience is building is hard unless you're a tech firm. If you're a tech firm you can probably build all the great stuff. But it's so much easier when you find people who are experts in their craft at knowing this thing. And there's always trade-offs. Like they may not be perfect at that but they're experts at that. So when you can figure those things out and help push them and admittedly we're 150,000 employees, we've got close to 100,000 contractors, 70,000 contractors gross. Those are the areas where we say all right how do we do this better? Why does it take 12 steps sometimes to get somebody from A to Z? Why can't we do that in four? I mean unless you're some super top executive where of course there's gonna be more interviews, of course there's gonna be more... But for most of our people you don't need 12 steps or some magic number. Joel: Just to be clear. You're dealing with data on the front end with incoming candidates as well as the current employees upskilling opportunities, where should people be moving? So you're using tools on both sides of the fence. What kind of stories are you telling with the data and specifically I think data helps talent HR tell a story about profitability in the organization. Are you doing that at J&J and how? Doug: Yeah. So something we're super proud of is launching, we call it J&J Learn. And a lot of it is based on some of the work we've done in partnership with you folks as well. And the fact is we're already seeing those returns. We think about the fact that now we don't have separate training that takes place within our firm group, within our MedTech group. It's all under the umbrella now of J&J Learn. And I love it because I think about what I experienced at GE at Crotonville. Where you bring people together whether they're in aircraft engines or in capital, sure, there's some specialized groups that existed back when I started years and years and years ago but most of the training really happens right there at the center, at J&J Learn in our specialized campus in Orlando. And what I love about the fact is we not only have cost benefit from bringing all that together but more importantly we're seeing people already who are taking classes who are not only gaining skills but working with others that they've never worked with before. Doug: And that cross-pollination plus the benefit of going through the classes, completing them, seeing how their talent velocity whether lateral moves, promotions are occurring and this is early stages. We're just beginning one year in, imagine what this is gonna look like three years in. We think about retention, we think about that talent velocity score, we think about return on investment, what it costs us and what we'll get back later on. These are huge opportunities for us. And it's certainly one of our big rocks if you could use that phrase. But it's something we're very proud of. Sandra Humbles is our chief learning officer. Joel: Dig into the ROI part of your statement. What does that look like at J&J? Who are you sharing that with? What does it look like? Doug: Well, I could tell you our CFO is certainly interested in something like that. Joel: That's good. I fear that's unique in not too many companies so that's a good problem to have. Doug: Oh, yeah. I mean, these are things that really matter to us. And we want... I remember back when we started to do some pilots and people were asking questions like wow you can infer skills. That's pretty cool. Pretty cool except for the people on the factory floors in our supply chain organization at the time where they don't have equipped laptops to put in what skills they have and how we can measure them and all this stuff through inference. So we had to come up with other strategies. There's lots of ways to measure skills, lots of ways to go through content but how do we make sure it's good and equitable for everyone? Doug: And what we cared about was, are we seeing employees getting value out of this? It wasn't just the dollars and the cents at first. It was really about the employee experience. Are they growing? Do they have aspirations? Are we helping them to get to their aspirations? And you've got to have a hook. It can't just be well we're gonna save the company money. It's got to be about well what can... The old, tune into the radio station WIIFM, what's in it for me? And that's really what helped us get started. Don't you wanna grow? We posted, here's what we're playing for. And when you post that and then you start realizing, well, oh, I have some of these but not all of these, I better start focusing on some of these. They matter to the company. We're not saying we're gonna throw you out or kick you out or not keep you up but what we are saying is you should know what we're playing for. And a lot of people got on that bandwagon real quickly. Chad: Yeah. I bet so. Joel: You are listed as a top 10 influencer via CIOLook. Chad: Top 10. Joel: I'm not a reader of the publication but how do you get to be a top 10 influencer for someone who wants to follow in your footsteps? Doug: Well, I would always say this... So thank you for bringing that up. I appreciate it. It's certainly something that I'm honored and humbled by. So let me start there. And what I would say is this, you've got to have learning agility. If you think that what you learn now and what you know now is something that is always there, you better realize that it's not. Chad: Amen. Amen. Joel: Well, Doug, thanks for sitting down with us here at the Fuel50 booth at HR Tech. For anyone who wants to connect with you or learn more, where would you send them? Doug: Hit me up on LinkedIn. Joel: Easy. That is Doug Shazam if you're in auto-correct plan... Chad: AKA Shagam. Joel: AKA Shagam. He is the Head of People Data and Insights at Johnson & Johnson. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell or enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western you can't quit them either. We out.

The Dutch Trump is something we never thought would be uttered on our podcast, yet here we are. This episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast (Does Europe) starts with a lesson in European politics and the rise of mini-Trumps around the in places like Italy, France and, yes, Holland. That's followed by a breakdown of recent tech news, including London-born startup Artisan and it's AI, named Ava, raising funds, Ukraine's Jooble quietly winning and Spain's Manuel making moves on Paradox's Olivia (Is she interested? We discuss.) Then it's off to startup land where companies are refocused on retention and pay equity in light of higher interest rates and a dead IPO market. From there, it's off to Deutschland where a recession has led Europe's largest economy to rethink immigration ... assuming you're the "right" kind of immigrant, of course. Chad opines that "there's too many stupid humans" in the world. He's not talking about our listeners, of course. Enjoy this wunderbar episode. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. [music] Chad: Hide your kids, lock the Doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah, three guys who look amazing in lederhosen. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast Does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel, stuck in second Geert Cheeseman. Chad: And this is Chad "Blame the Dutch" Sowash. Lieven: I'm Lieven, making public affairs sound like fun, Van Nieuwenhuyze. [laughter] Joel: And on this episode, move over Paradox. Retention is in and Germany wants you. Let's do this. What's up, boys? Chad: What is up? It's time to blame the Dutch, kids. Joel: Don't steal my thunder Sowash I got a shout-out. I got a shout-out. I'm sure it'll 'cause some conversation. I'll mispronounce this, Geert Wilders, it looks like Geert Wilders, for those Americans. Chad: Yes. That's a much better movie. Joel: The media is calling him The Dutch Trump, and he's in a good position to become Holland's next prime minister. He's well known for his strong anti-immigration, anti-Islam and Euro skepticism. The Netherlands would join Italy, Germany and France, and also Argentina, although it's not in Europe, embracing a more right wing nationalistic position. That's all happened in the past few years. Wilders secured 25% of the Vil, which is a lot, apparently, so he'll have to play nice with other parties to become the prime minister. But what do I know? I'm just an American. Lieven, please enlighten us on the Dutch Trump. Lieven: Yeah. Enlightening is something he needs. Okay. Geert Wilders is the head man of a party called PVV Part Vryheid, Party for Freedom. And he's been in parliament for over 25 years. He's pretty, he's experienced. But now what is a problem? They have to find capable people to fill in those seats because they don't have... Nobody who is in his right mind is going to openly admit he's promoting Geert Wilders. [laughter] Chad: Well, nobody who's decent would actually join that party in the first place, is what I'm hearing. Lieven: Definitely not. And they would never admit it. Some people I'm sure will vote because deep inside they are against Islam or against whatever, but they would never, not many people would tell it to their friends even that they voted for PVV. Joel: Ireland had some shit go down this week. Lieven: Also right wing extremists, people burning whatever they [laughter] could burn. Yeah. Chad: You gotta love how these movements like the Party for Freedom is nothing less than, there's no freedom. Lieven: Nothing at all. [laughter] Chad: At all. It's like in the US we had Citizens United, which literally was nothing but corporations. [laughter] It's like, none of this shit makes sense. The question is, does he have a chance to actually become prime minister? Because the votes are transparent; you have to know who voted. Or can they actually vote behind closed doors for prime minister? Lieven: Most European countries, it's like this. The party who wins the elections, they get the chance to first try to make a coalition with other parties to get some kind of majority and then they can agree on who's going to be the prime minister. And I thought the second party, VVD it's called, was going to make a deal with Geert Wilders' party. And the deal could be Geert Wilders would say, I'm going to to settle down a bit and I'm going to be a bit more demographic... No, democratic, democracy. Yeah. And then if you join me, and then we can have a majority, and then you can become the prime minister because nobody would accept Geert Wilders as a prime minister, but VVD decided we don't want to work with him. We're going to, we want to join the coalition. Now it's a problem because he only has 37 seats and he's the biggest party, but it's only 37. Now he has to find people who are willing to work with him and I don't think it will happen. So he probably will never become a prime minister, even though he would love to. Joel: Has this come to Portugal yet, Chad, has this trend come to Portugal? Chad: I think the trend is everywhere. You have far right people all over the place. But the Portuguese, because we are in the beautiful country of Portugal where everything is wonderful, it's just not as bad, it's just not as bad. But yeah, this happens everywhere. Joel: Interesting times in Europe, for sure. Chad: Do you have a shout-out, Lieven? Lieven: Yeah, my shout-out goes to VDAB, which is the Flemish Department of Labor and they have a job board, the vdab.bejobboard. And according to a survey done by Intelligence Group, VDAB is the biggest job board in Flanders beating both LinkedIn and Indeed, so they should be sponsoring my congress now, because our congress, House of HR's congress, because we only work with the best. And since they are the biggest, I'll contact them. Joel: They are the biggest. [music] Chad: That's hilarious. We're talking about events. Next week, I'm gonna be in London for TA Tech happening on Tuesday and Wednesday where I will be MCing the event with Kirsty Kelly. People in the room will be guys like Matt, that British guy Alder, Hong our favorite porn star Lee, the lovely and talented Julie Sowash, Death Match winner, Andrea Wade and a list of other smart and talented people. If you're in the UK or oh shit, maybe you can hop on a quick flight to London. Go to chadcheese.com and register. It's gonna be a great event. Plus Cheeseman, this is where you're gonna get envious, my friend. We are scheduled to have and record a multi podcast episode in a proper English pub. Joel: Whoa. Chad: A few hours before the reception with Alder, Hong Lee, Julie, Chris, Murdoch, James Whitlock, and myself. We'll be dropping that in the holiday stream sometime soon. Joel: Did you say, did you say Hong Lee? [laughter] Joel: By the way. Didn't a certain Scot in our lives have some big news this week? Speaker 4: Welcome to all things Scottish. Of course it is, if it's no Scottish, it's crap! Chad: Oh he did. Yeah, and I guess it's public now. So Stephen McGrath with this little baby ginger girl, and he's assuring us it's gonna be a ginger girl, [laughter], and yeah, so he's home with Natasha as long as she will have him until she kicks his ass out of the door to go back to work again. So we're really, really excited for him and that little baby girl. Joel: Rumor is he's spiking the bottle with Aberfeldy. I don't know if that's true or not, but hey, I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility. Chad: She's Scottish. I think that's normal. Joel: [laughter] It's already running through the blood, so why not put it in the liver while you're at it? Holy shit. Happy. Congratulations, Steven. The world couldn't use a better sperm donor than you, my friend. Chad: Our favorite Scot, yes. Topics! Joel: Alright, we got a tech block out of Europe this week. Chad: Hello. Joel: Let's get on three stories and we will comment appropriately. First up, Artisan has raised $2.3 million to create human-like digital workers launching artisans like Ava, a sales rep, automating tasks while aiding human workers. Founded by a 22-year-old CEO from London, they claim to have 3000 users, and that's all in just the first six months of launch. Chad, what's your take on Artisan? Chad: So Ava, this AI sales rep's gonna have access to 265 million contacts, which she can just blast and start the cold calling process, the cold outreach process. I think Artisan is smart to start with sales because that's where most of the massive budgets reside. Sales leaders should be expected and excited about this tech because as a guy with sales background myself, prospecting and cold calling takes a ton of time away from the actual dollar-making sales activities. So actually talking to interested humans with problems, this gives sales reps the time to better research companies and then engage in meaningful conversations, opening up that wallet even further and doing more of what you should be doing as a salesperson. We talk about this in recruiting, all the minuscule, the kinda tasks that are happening that take you away from the actual human interaction. Chad: That's what I think Artisan is doing here. The cool thing, onboarding only takes about 10 minutes with a back and forth conversation. So you're actually having a conversation with the AI, for the integrations itself to talk about domain specific skills required for Slack, Teams, and integrations to HubSpot, Salesforce, MailChimp and others. So I can see, and I will predict that in 2024, we will definitely see companies using these co-pilots as SDRs and co-pilots for sales. So, they're also gonna have Noah, the AI designer, and Liam, the AI marketer that are gonna be coming out in 2024. So... Joel: All good English names for those chat bots. S?: Alright. Joel: So my man is 22, he's straight out of like casting for the next... Chad: Love it. Joel: Nolan film about, you know, tech. They got accepted to Y Combinator, which accepts 1% I think of startups. So right there you got a story made out of Hollywood, right? Like 22-year-old founder. And by the way, this guy is, you know, good looking. There's some topless photos. He's a guy, so it's all good. So I mean, he's like kind of sexy. He's British, he's young, he's got this cool tech startup. They moved to San Francisco. Y Combinator, like everything is going right for this company. They got a PhD on the other side of the co-founder equation. It's a great start. I mean it's from, what I read it's all email based at the moment which, how many of us get spam emails from "salespeople," quite a few of us on a regular basis. [laughter] Joel: Now it can have a conversation via email where it answers and has a back and forth, which at some point I assume goes to a human being to actually close the sale or get the contract signed. Companies like Air, air.ai, which we've talked about actually will call people in terms of having a conversation. So there are companies in my view that are way ahead of where this is going. Artisan is at a good place, but they need to get to voice really quickly. They need to get to text really quickly, which assuming, with Y Combinator's help and funds, they will do. But this has the undertones of a really cool story in our space, because this guy is straight out of central casting for a startup. Chad: But do you think, I mean, adoption for a voice that you know is not human is going to be, is gonna be good, especially on the sales side? I think like for a candidate, because they just want interaction in the first place, companies are getting way too much fucking interaction from salespeople as it is. [laughter] So I don't want calls all the goddamn time from salespeople. So I mean, I think it's almost like a difference in industry and also who you're trying to use this outreach for. So I agree with you there are some that are ahead of them, but I'm just not sure on the adoption curve if Air is gonna make it happen or not with voice. Joel: I mean, time will tell. I mean Air sounds really human. It's not like you're talking to a robot on the phone. Now there is, like Tesla does this, Apple does this, some big companies do this. Now it's on the consumer side, so it's not a B2B transaction, which is what, you know, you may or may not be looking at with Artisan. So I guess time will tell whether buyers on the corporate enterprise side of the house will be like, whatever, and hang up, or if they'll actually have conversations. I think they'll get more human sounding. Joel: People may test them, have fun with, oh, let's see if this is really robot, and like test it with questions. Just like the people in Walmart with bats that will beat up a robot janitor, people will have fun with this. Will it work? I think the sad truth is sales in our space is a numbers game. Like, if you're not making a 100 calls a day outbound, it's really hard to make a difference in a company. And startups, if I'm a startup in this space or any space, and I can have a software that will email hundreds of people on millions of users, in terms of leads, would I do that if it's a lot cheaper than hiring an STR or a sales person? Yeah, I'm gonna do that. Now, if after six months I got nothing, then I gotta go back to plan B or go back to plan A. But a lot of companies are gonna start the sales process with this automation solution, and I guess time will tell as to whether it'll work or not. Chad: Are you gonna equip your staff with it over there at house of HR Lieven? Lieven: Already doing it, I think. But it's a very interesting concept, Artisan, I liked it and I'm a big believer of the whole hybrid teams concepts. I think in the very near future, teams will consist of both people and robots. And you'll have to manage both and make sure they work together. This Artisan concept with launching bots like Ava now for sales, but they will haves several personas doing different things, they actually are first step towards that hybrid team concept. I love it. And actually they seem to have the right background. I mean, and the sexy CEO who's 22. If it was only him, I would have my doubts, but the CTO has a PhD in astrophysics from Oxford University. So this combination could be cool. I mean, a young guy, who's really enthusiastic and who probably has great ideas. And then a CTO who's been around and who has a... Chad: Grounds him. Lieven: And then those two forces working together might actually achieve something. And I read they will participate in the Y Combinators winter batch, meaning that's where Sam Altman came from, Y Combinators. So, I think they're circulating in the right circles. Joel: Yeah. Interestingly, recruiting was not one of the verticals that they're getting into, Chad, that you mentioned, Liam and others... [overlapping conversation] Joel: But the opportunity in our space to put retargeting code on an ATS for someone who's already applied, to see them come back to the site and then contact them in this fashion is gonna be huge. I don't know of companies doing it. Chad: I agree. Joel: But there will be somebody that figures out that process and it'll be huge, for sure. Chad: Yeah. HR needs bigger budgets. I mean, we deserve it in the first place. Recruiting deserves it in the first place, that should be happening. I agree 100%. But they're going after the big cash first, which is sales, obviously, and marketing. Joel: Oh, for sure. Market and sales. Yeah. There's, there's money in them, in them hills to start this thing up. Well, that's not the end of our tech news... S?: Another one. Joel: Out of Europe. Ukrainian job search platform Jooble has made an investment in Treaz Work, a service that facilitates the outsourcing of hiring freelance recruiters. The investment amount has not been disclosed, but the platform currently has over 800 registered recruiters and more than 500 daily users. Chad, what's your take on the move by Jooble? Chad: So, Jooble must be making a lot of money off of paid ads and arbitrage in East Europe. So good for them. That's awesome. 'Cause this is their, like their second, their second or third time they've actually invested. Tarah's Work is a freelance marketplace, and they're trying to penetrate more of Western Europe labor types of positions like rigor, mechanic, electricians, chefs, drivers, security guards, people who cannot be remote workers, which I thought was interesting. So I originally thought Tarah's work would be an SME player for companies with smaller recruiting staffs and smaller recruiting budgets. But those two just don't quite jive in my head. So I was thinking Lieven's gonna know more about this than we do, and you've forgotten more about this than we know, Lieven. So, would SMEs recruit talent from Eastern Europe into Western Europe? Or is this literally just a play for larger brands and companies? Lieven: It's always kind of difficult to move those people from Eastern European countries and to integrate them in western European countries. So it's mostly done by bigger companies who have, who can facilitate this. But there are plenty of companies who are doing this for SMEs. We, for example, in the Netherlands, have a company called Covebo, and they specialize in hiring and training people from Eastern European countries, mostly with skilled blue collar workers within construction. And they retrain them to work in western European countries and also at SMEs. So there's definitely a need, but those SMEs can't do it by themselves. So they're helped by people like Covebo doing the hassle for them. Chad: Do they become their employer of record? Does Covebo become their employer of record, or do they just... Lieven: Yeah. Chad: Okay, okay. So they're like an EOR company for skilled labor. That's really, really interesting. Lieven: And in the Netherlands, they even provide housing. Chad: Ah, smart. Lieven: They facilitate everything. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Send them to Chad's Airbnb in Portugal if you ever run out of room in... Like you mentioned, Chad, Jooble's like a secret success over in Europe. I mean this acquisition, it's their third... Chad: During a war. They're in Kyiv. Joel: That's my other point. But they acquired JJ an online edtech company and Adsy, a recruiting ad service. Their leadership team outside of their PR guy who's from Sweden, apparently, they're all in Kyiv or Ukraine. That's incredible based on what's going on in Ukraine right now. So big applause for them for all that. But... [applause] Joel: If you're looking for ways to donate money indirectly to Ukraine, put some money in Jooble, promote some jobs. They've got other companies that they're working with, like there's a company to support in the world in our space outside of Jooble, some Israeli companies that we've talked about on the show, TaTiO, HiBob, ZipRecruiter, etcetera. The fact that this company is still rocking in the heart of Ukraine... Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Is just really cool. Really cool. Chad: Yeah. It's inspiring. I mean it really is. Joel: Totally, totally. Lieven: It's amazing. Life goes on even during a war and business goes on. Joel: That's a good point. We Americans at least, we're so pampered and cushy and plump and fat. We don't think about some countries just are used to crazy shit going down. I guess Eastern... Chad: We're protected by oceans. [laughter] Joel: Eastern Bloc might be one of those sectors. Well, that's not the end of our tech breakdown, guys. Let's talk about someone else. S?: Another one. [automated voice] Joel: Let me get to my notes real quick. Alright, Move Over Paradox. An AI driven chatbot named Manuel based in Madrid and led by some HR pros has developed a chatbot out of the company named HR Bot Factory. They've helped deliver a major recruiting effort to a Spain company at the tune of 3200 seasonal workers during peak season. The company has secured 1 million Euros in funding, that was earlier this year, and they generate income exceeding €500,000 back in 2022. Chad, what's your take on Manuel by HR Bot Factory? Not to be confused with CNC Music Factory. Chad: HR Bot Factory. It does sound pretty cool, especially if you do know CNC Music Factory. But seriously, it's just a basic candidate application flow chatbot, I mean the kind of stuff that Paradox and Talkpush do in their sleep. Now, I'm not sure where the AI comes in or is needed here, but since everything today comes with a side of AI, I guess we shouldn't be surprised. Anyway, I say good luck, but this seems like a chatbot pitch that we heard from about seven years ago. So I'm gonna give this an eight out of 10 on the yawn factor. [laughter] Joel: How are you gonna buzzkill our final tech story? Gonna make you sweat till you bleed, Sowash. [laughter] Chad: Sorry guys. Joel: Yeah. If Paradox hasn't acquired these guys already, maybe they should just for the talent and the footprint. Because they apparently are in a lot of different countries. If you look at their website, they've got little pins in South America, throughout Europe, etcetera. So if they have some sort of client base that can be turned onto some real tech like Paradox is slinging, that could be a real opportunity for them. You'll remember Paradox bought Spetz out of Israel back in '21, so it's about time for them to acquire another European company. So hey, Paradox, get in that couch, get some loose change and go buy... [laughter] Joel: Go buy Manuel, which is a pretty sexy chatbot name at least. Chad: I think Aaron will just want to crush them. [laughter] Joel: Probably, probably. No clue what Paradox's footprint is in Europe. It's probably not bad. Do you run into Paradox in Europe, Lieven, chatbots? Lieven: Nope. Joel: No. [laughter] Chad: What about Sewer? [laughter] Lieven: Okay, Sewer. Sewer. Just having some technical issues, but I'm fixing them as we speak. Joel: We can hear you and you can hear us. So that's... Lieven: Okay. Chad: Building the plane in flight. Yes. Lieven: Okay. Joel: Lieven has a whole studio, by the way. Chad and I have like a mic plugged into the computer. [laughter] Lieven: Yeah. But need to make up for everything else I lack. So okay, chatbots, we were talking about chatbots, right? Chad: Yes. Joel: European chatbots. Lieven: And it was Sewer. Was it Sewer? I twas Sewer. I think until one year ago or something, when talking about AI and chatbots, I always thought about very artificial and hardly intelligent. But now with everything based on ChatGPT, it's getting really intelligent and it sounds really... It doesn't sound artificial anymore. So I think recruitment using bots as a proven concept, but suddenly it became more effective, I think, and I'm a believer, I think it will work. And I kind of like the name where... Were we talking about Manuel before I had those issues? Joel: Manuel, yes. Lieven: Manuel, you know Fawlty Towers in the US? No? A television series by John Cleese. No? You know John Cleese? Joel: Fawlty Towers sounds like a great name for a business. Yeah. I'm gonna buy some Fawlty Towers. [laughter] Lieven: It was the name of a hotel, Fawlty Towers. And there was one waiter working there, his name was Manuel. And he was famous for the quote, "I know nothing. I'm from Barcelona," so whatever went wrong, he knew nothing because he was from Barcelona and he was working in the United Kingdom in a hotel called Fawlty Towers. But the fun part was in the whole of Europe, this was a very popular series, and everyone knew Manuel and everyone, if you said, "I know nothing," they would answer, "I'm from Barcelona," but only in Spain the name Manuel was changed to Pablo. And Pablo came from Naples, Napoli, because the Spanish people here they didn't really saw the fun in Manuel. Okay, so but this is totally irrelevant, just came up. Anyways we were talking about chatbots. S?: Does anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Lieven: Manuel. Okay, please go on. [laughter] Chad: Yeah, I'm gonna go with a Hogan's Heroes reference, and that's Sergeant Schultz, who, I know nothing, I know nothing, I know nothing. Joel: Absolutely. Lieven's gotta stop pounding the Belgian brews when we record this podcast. Lieven: The Belgian brews. Joel: Let's take a quick break and talk a little European startup tech hiring. We'll be right back. All right guys, let's talk startup tech hiring. A new report on European tech startups from Ravio indicates a shift from hiring surges to a focus on retention, highlighting decreased hiring rates by nearly 40% to 50%. Yikes. The report says startups are retaining talent through increased salaries, addressing gender pay gaps and promoting equitable work environments. Why is this happening? The survey cites economic pressures such as ballooning interest rates. The report stresses the need for non-cash incentives, like, shocker, equity. Chad, what's your take on the news on startup in the tech space? Chad: So this is coming out of an article from tech.eu, and let's focus on the byline here for a minute, "In response to market conditions, European startups are increasingly focusing on employee retention and pay equality." When times are good and money is flowing, good business practices always suffer. When talent is abundant, companies feel like they have license to treat their people like shit, because talent can easily be replaced. But when times are tight, money isn't flowing so freely, talent isn't as easy to come by, attrition is killing overall productivity, business starts the, "Our employees are the greatest asset bullshit." So this is just a normal cycle of business. And sitting back to watch it over and over is fucking maddening at times. This should be a specific business problem that is taught in business schools. Then there's the pay equity and representation problem that plagues businesses as well, that was in this article. If women are doing the same work and not receiving equal pay, it's going to be harder to retain them. If women are only seen as a low percentage of leadership roles in a company, why would any woman want to stay? Why would any female want to stay? So more business problems that I don't believe we tackle early stage of learning with whether it's startups, whether it's in university or what have you. So this to me, has nothing to do with hiring. It has to do with just shitty leadership and shitty business products or processes. S?: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel: So, I look at this primarily from a, I guess, macro economic perspective. So when a lot of these startups, or when startups in general in the past few years have been founded, they've been flush with cash, money is free, the IPO market was open and available to startups. That's really turned around. So the appeal to get the best and the brightest to come to your company isn't shares of... Isn't stock options and a payday during, for an IPO or a big acquisition, they gotta come up with something better. And if they can't hire because their salaries aren't better than big tech companies can pay, then they gotta spin it as equity. They gotta spin it as we'll retain you and keep you in some form or fashion. Like, here's how we're gonna do it. Joel: Whether it's better work environments or better flexibility, that depends on the startup, but they can't just rely on shares of stock, they can't just rely on a big payday to attract the best people. So when those people leave or there's a threat to leave, well, we got to retain them better. I think the pay equity thing is PR for the most part. It's like, hey, let's just throw in pay equity. Let's keep the women we have. The study also showed, I think, a fairly decreased amount of salary for women at these companies. So they're actually just getting to equal from where they are, which is pretty far down. So they are making a difference there, but I think a lot of it's PR, we'll keep you by paying you what you're worth. Joel: Oh, gee, thanks. That's really nice of you to do that. Also a big problem is the down rounds, which we don't see with private companies, but the shares of stock that these people had with down rounds and revaluing these companies, some of these stock options are underwater. They're worth nothing because of the revalue of the company. Not everyone is open AI. No one's revaluing at $87 billion or whatever it is. So these startups have to be creative. Good on them to actually think about retention and how we keep people and paying women fairly. That's a luxury you didn't have to deal with when money was free. Now you have to deal with it. Yeah. Congratulations. Yeah, this is... Chad: They don't give a shit when everything's good. That's the thing. It's like you always have to think about this. Joel: Yeah. Inflation, competitive marketplace, big companies with a lot of money, like, welcome to the world. Yeah. Lieven? Lieven: For it to be stupid from my point of view to promote retention. I think you should constantly hire new people and preferably through us. But these days, it's not like you can open a can with potential candidates and they will just jump out. You have to find something to attract them and also to keep them, of course. And I think being part of an equity program definitely works for us. At House of HR we have over 300 people who are part of some kind of long-term investment scheme, or a plan, a scheme doesn't sound right, long-term investment plan. Chad: Scheme, yeah, bad word choice. Yeah, plan. Lieven: But it's a lost in translation, a long-term investment plan, and that definitely helps to keep people involved. They all say something like, as a small shareholder, I don't think this is a good idea. And it's funny, but it's a way to keep people involved. And also, of course, it's a nice bonus if everything turns out right. And people won't leave if they have something to look forward to. So I do believe in equity and giving people a fair share of the profits. Joel: Lieven, did you see many people or any people leave when Bain came in and made such a move to acquire so many shares of the company? Or was it like, oh, we're coming in and the promise is an even bigger payout at some certain point? So retention has been easy at House of HR, I'm guessing. Lieven: It became easier. It's never easy, of course. I mean, but it became easier and people definitely did not leave because Bain bought them. But there was a big long-term investment plan and it paid off when Bain entered and then there was a new one. So, even if the company grows, everyone can grow with the company, which is something personally I love. Many companies have many different ways to motivate people, but in the end, money is always important. And there is a certain moment where a few thousand euros more doesn't make much difference. But for normal people, it does make a difference. It's a difference between having an extra holiday or just being able to pay the bills. Joel: Yeah. 'Cause Europeans need more holidays. Lieven: Some European countries. Chad: Yeah, them living their lives just suck, Cheeseman. Yeah, it's horrible. Man, I don't know why we do that. Joel: Politically, it's kind of dicey right now. Like immigration, what countries will let people in, how hard is it to get people in, I think that's gonna play into it as well. Which takes us into our next story out of Germany, everybody. So Europe's largest economy, AKA Germany has relaxed regulations for non-EU nationals seeking employment, emphasizing a shortage of skills With the current pool of candidates. Revised legislation effective from November 18th Facilitates residency for those with a university degree and a job offer, lowering the income threshold to around 44,000 euros annually. Specific fields like STEM require earnings of approximately 40,000 euros. IT specialists without a degree need three years' experience. Permanent residence permits can be obtained In as little as 21 months With German language proficiency, ja. The changes aim to aid international companies In recruiting skilled workers and bolster German competitiveness. Studies reveal that most EU Blue Card holders, which I'm guessing is the equivalent of the Green Card in America, Lieven can enlighten me on that one, they tend to stay longer term. So there's more incentive to get them into the country. Chad or Lieven, what are your thoughts on Germany's move to get some brain power back into the country? Lieven: I think it's the only way, I mean, we need the people. And the whole population's aging. So we're going to have a big problem within 10 years if we don't find new, to say it's a new blood to keep us young. So I think this is the way to go. And this is exactly the opposite of what they are proposing in the Netherlands. The party we were just talking about from Geert Wilders actually is trying to stop labor immigration. It's the total opposite. And I think in this case, Germany is right. Chad: Yeah, I don't know if this is the answer to what the real problem is. But I know it's not more people. And I'll give you an example here in a minute. I'm a huge fan of immigration because it brings culture, new ideas, productivity. Although we need to start talking about sustainability first. And growing Germany's population is not sustainable. I'm going to give you an example That I think everybody will understand. It's comparing Germany to California, the US's best producing state, so stick with me. So we have to take a look at literally the size of the country. So by landmass, Germany is about 350,000 square kilometers. California is bigger, 423, almost 424,000 square kilometers. By population, Germany's population is 83 million people. California's is 34 million people. That's a huge fucking difference. By GDP, Germany's GDP is 4.4 trillion. California's is 3.8 trillion, right behind them, they're one state in the US. California has almost a third of the size of the population of Germany. California has bigger landmass, about by 75,000 square kilometers. This is not a people equation. It's a revenue generating equation. Population growth in Germany and most places in Europe is not just, it's not sustainable. Chad: And Lieven, this one's for you, my friend. Belgium is only about a third of the size of Indiana land mass-wise, and that's where Joel and I both live. And yet, Belgium has twice the population of Indiana. There are already too many fucking people in Indiana, okay? I cannot imagine why, why all these European countries are so pissed off because they have too many fucking people. It's too crowded, it's not sustainable. So to be able to say that we have to grow population, I think is just maddening, to be quite frank. We have to think a different way to actually ensure that, again, take a look at Germany. Germany has 83 million people, 83 million. So that's a hell of a lot more than California's 34 million. And California is making just about as much GDP as Germany. There's a different problem here and this is not gonna solve it. More people's not gonna solve it. Joel: If only Hitler's Lebensraum campaign would have panned out, then they would have had plenty of land. This is why they don't grow almonds and wine in Germany. Lieven: By the way, I think in Indiana your gardens are just too big. Chad: They could be, but we don't have as many people. [chuckle] Joel: Well, it's interesting, I mean, Americans don't consider, Europe is like half the land mass and twice the people as America. So that's why they have trains. US trains don't make sense because you gotta go long ways to... Chad: High-speed trains would make sense, but go ahead. Joel: Yes. Lieven: Only a few lines, of course. Joel: Elon's boring company will save us from that. Chad: Hyperloop. Lieven: I agree, I mean, one of the... The guy who won the Dutch election, his slogan even was, "The Netherlands are full. And according to what Chad is saying, he's right. I mean, there are so many people. But if you want to keep our potential growths, if we want to keep it, then we need the people to do the work, to pay all those pensions for those who have been working for the past 40 years. So if you want to keep the current system intact, we need new people. And since we don't make them like our Scottish friend is doing, then we need to say it may be rudely, important. The problem is in the Netherlands, for example, there is a housing shortage. Houses are becoming extremely expensive. For normal people it's becoming impossible to buy a house, definitely not in the popular regions. And those people say, if we import 300,000 new people, that's 300,000 new houses, which make it even harder for the... Chad: Again, that's why we don't need more people. Joel: Germany wants the "right people." They want they want educated people who make a lot of money and can buy stuff and can pay taxes and can support the aging population. Lieven: Of course. Joel: The immigrants they don't want, they don't want, so it's like have our cake and eat it too. Chad: That's always been the case. That's always been the case with Germany. Lieven: But not only with Germany, I mean with the whole of Europe right now. This is why extreme right is gaining so much because the social system is going to collapse if we just open the gates to, Let's say the whole of Africa. Chad: So, is AI the answer? That's the question, we need less people... Joel: It might be! Chad: We need less people... Lieven: Definitely. Chad: We need to generate more revenue and that revenue goes back into the system to pay for the old people. That's what I'm saying. The construct that we're talking about right now, the economic construct we're talking about right now is a 1920s construct. It's much like when inflation rises. What do we do? We raise the interest rates. That's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard of in my life. It's a 1920s construct. We need to be thinking differently about how economics can work. They don't have to be the 1920s version. Joel: And in 1920 people lived to be 65, which is why the retirement age is around 65. Unfortunately people are living longer, but they still need care. Chad: Eighty-one is the life expectancy in Germany. Joel: And now, by the way, Europe's paying more for their defense, which means more in taxes to pay for bombs and tanks. So who's gonna pay for that? It's not people that are retired. It's young people that are paying for the retired and paying for the new stuff. So it's like, how do we balance this to keep our way of living so our politicians can stay can stay in business? And so it's this really incredibly difficult balancing act and... Chad: It is... Joel: Like Lieven talked about the demographics. It's gonna, like it's gonna be so top-heavy with old people, that young people aren't gonna be around. So you either produce more people, have more sex, which sounds like a great solution to me, but apparently young people don't agree. And number two is you either let immigrants in... Lieven: I'm sure they have lots of sex, but they use birth control. Joel: I don't know what's going on. Talk to Steven, he knows how to do it. And I think all of us on this call know how to do it too. But anyway, I digress. So it's either, have more sex and more people, have immigrants, which they're trying to like, let's have the right immigrants, but not the wrong kind of immigrants. Lieven: That sounds... Joel: Or you become more productive. To Chad's point, the economy comes such that you needs fewer people to produce more goods and consume more shit. And so it could be a balance of all that, it could be one or the other. We just don't know about productivity and AI as to where that'll be the the panacea or not. Chad: I don't know if that's gonna be the panacea. I just know that creating more stupid humans is not a panacea. Joel: We have no other choice at the moment. Chad: We have plenty of choices. We just don't... We just don't choose. Joel: Yeah. We cane pull the plug on the old people and say you're on your own. There's no health, there's no Medicare, there's no like, there's no safety net and in a 100 years, it'll balance itself. Chad: Or we can make sure that CEOs aren't making like 1500% more than everybody else. I mean, there are things that we can do. It's not just one thing. We don't just pull the plug on one factor. Joel: Well, you can tax the rich more to support that, I guess, you could... Chad: There's that. There's that. Lieven: In this case, it's not a money thing. It's just a people thing. I mean, which is the... Chad: It is a money thing because you got to pay for those people who are living 20 years longer than what they did in the 1920s. Lieven: One out of six active people are having a job in care right now in the Netherlands, because all those people becoming older demographics. We're going to need one out of four people, but we also need those people to work in IT. We also need them to become a fire agent, etcetera. So we we just need more people to do all the jobs which need to be done and mostly within health care. Joel: Or you need more robots to take blood pressures and... Chad: We need Jedi robots, is what we need. We watch Star Wars, get... [overlapping conversation] Lieven: We have to make choices, for real. Joel: As soon as the Amazon robots are filled, all the warehouses are filled up, they can start caring for the for the elderly. Lieven: We'll see. We'll see. Joel: Which by the way is real opportunity. My dad's in a retirement home. Like those people would love conversation, whether it's a robot or a cat. They just want to talk. I'm digressing, but there's there's a lot of opportunity for companies to make a lot of money on the demographic collapse of Europe and most of the rest of the world. Lieven's empty, he needs another one and I need one after this conversation. Boys, it was fun. We'll see you again in a couple weeks. We out! Chad: We out. Speaker 5: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

How could the boys head to Europe for UNLEASH World and not get a hot take on the current state of the continent when it comes to the world of work? European businesses like Personio, HiBob, Job&Talent and others are shaking things up, and it goes both ways with the likes of Appcast reshaping European stalwarts like Stepstone. That's why we invited Hendrik Schmahl, Partner at EY in Berlin to the Textkernel booth for a chat. Schmahl is busy leading the consulting practice advancing HR transformation and digitization, but found some time for Chad & Cheese. If you're looking for a different take on how the economy and tech are evolving in Europe, and particularly in Germany, then this interview is a must. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh. Yeah. What's up everybody? It's your sous-chef's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Eiffel to my tower, Chad Sowash is in the house. And we are happy live from the Textkernel booth at Unleash in Paris to welcome Hendrick Schmall... Chad: Schmall? Joel: Partner at Ernst and Young or EY in the wonderful city of Berlin. Welcome to the show, Hendrick. Hendrik Schmahl: Thank you, thank you. You're welcome too. Yeah, of course. Joel: Thank you. Thank you. So our listeners unlikely know who you are. So give us a Twitter bio about Hendrick. Hendrik Schmahl: A Twitter bio. It's more, it's more like that I'm doing 30 years almost on consulting in HR particular. Joel: Okay. Hendrik Schmahl: Made a perfect consulting career from Accenture to Deloitte to Korn Ferry to Ernst and Young. And in particular focusing on the issues that CHROs are actually having. Joel: Oh yeah? You have any kids? Chad: Yeah, where's the personal stuff? Hendrik Schmahl: I have three kids. Joel: You have three kids? Okay. Hendrik Schmahl: I have three kids, yeah. Joel: Three kids. Chad: How many pairs of Lederhosen do you all... [laughter] Hendrik Schmahl: Actually two. Yeah, after... Chad: Zwei, zwei. Hendrik Schmahl: Zwei. Chad: I love it, I love it, I love it. Joel: So your focus is on Germany for sure, but I wanna get your take on Europe because we have a European show. We're two dumb Americans. Give us and other dumb Americans that listen to the podcast and even some Europeans, the state of the business in Europe as a whole, from how you see it. Chad: It has a bunch of countries in it. Joel: It does have a lot of countries in it. Hendrik Schmahl: Yeah. A lot of countries. Chad: We don't want a state or country by country breakdown. Just give us a 30,000 foot view. Hendrik Schmahl: What we're usually facing is that a one size fits all logic, which is coming globally quite often from America. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: Then they have boundaries when they're facing the challenges in EMEA, in Europe. And that's mainly driven about the different cultures we have within such European region. The regulations, of course, it's a major topic. Quite different country by country, even state by state. Chad: Right. Hendrik Schmahl: And then coming back to the culture. Yeah. It's not as... The culture is something we are very proud of. And I think in Italians very proud of the Italian culture. The French guy is very French and the German is very German. And how to tackle this as a business, even with the one size fits all logic. And then you have your challenges. Joel: So you're saying the EU hasn't brought everyone together in harmony in Europe. [laughter] Chad: Is that what you're saying? Hendrik Schmahl: No. We are trying hard. Yeah. But we respect each other. Chad: You're trying hard. Chad: Trying hard. Hendrik Schmahl: That's for sure. Joel: All under one note. Chad: And then Britain leaves and screws it all up. Damn it. Joel: Fuck them. That's all I gotta say. Hendrik Schmahl: But also economically driven, right? Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: That's a difference. So one has a recession, then you have the industry logic where the one country is larger in the pharmaceutical companies and industry rather than the production. The production is suffering right now. Joel: Why is it suffering? Is it a supply chain thing? Why is it suffering? Chad: Is it a Russia thing? Hendrik Schmahl: They all came a lot with the Ukraine war too. Joel: Yep. Hendrik Schmahl: Of course. But overall recession, when they're suffering, they're suffering on the talent shortage. Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: That's really something where you have to move actually your production to different countries. Joel: Yes. Hendrik Schmahl: To source talents over there. That's a major topic. And then of course, the increases of all the prices with the oil, with the energy. That's a topic. Joel: Yes. What about Israel and Hamas? Do you think that's gonna be a big impact as well? I mean, 'cause it feels like we're clawing our way out. Hendrik Schmahl: Yes. Joel: Right? And then something else happens, right? We had Ukraine, Russia invades Ukraine, and then that obviously impacted dramatically for Europe. No question. Right? Do you think this war is going to impact as well? Hendrik Schmahl: Emotionally, of course. Joel: Oh of course. Hendrik Schmahl: I'm not a politician but having just... Joel: But just economically is what I mean. Hendrik Schmahl: Economic footprint of having Iran... Joel: Yes. Hendrik Schmahl: Jordanian and all the stuff. And then in the end of the day, talking with the Americans and the Russians, again, I think that must have an impact. Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: Then entering Africa, which is a market to go anyway. Joel: Yes. Hendrik Schmahl: More or less soon. And then you have the problems. Chad: I wanna dig into the talent shortage that you mentioned in Germany. Are we talking service sector? Are we talking healthcare? Are we talking tech? Hendrik Schmahl: We're talking everywhere. Chad: Are we talking all of it? And what is Germany doing to remedy that? Are they opening up the borders? Hendrik Schmahl: Yeah. I'm not sure whether you have seen our votes last week. So, no a major topic is immigration. Or migration actually. Joel: Yes. Hendrik Schmahl: And we were always quite bad in handling this. Yeah? And also even turning people coming to Germany into the logic of getting them, educating, getting them integrated into the business and so on so forth. Joel: Into society. Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: It's a society topic since 30, 40 years. And no, we are not doing that well. Now it's really lying on the companies. Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: They say, okay, what kind of integration approach, inclusion approach we are really doing? Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: Who is applicable for what kind of work? And then of course there's blue collar work where it's getting more and more into the logic too. Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: But it is company by company. It's less about the society or the Germany is taken care of. Chad: How has the EV revolution impacted Germany? Because Germany is a juggernaut in producing autos, luxury autos, Volkswagens and Tesla's making inroads to building Teslas in Germany. You're smiling. So talk about the EV revolution, [laughter] and what that is gonna mean to Germany's economy. Hendrik Schmahl: I'm from Berlin, so Elon Musk made a Tesla factory just next to Berlin or even still in Berlin. However, I think that this, in the end of the day, it is driving us for having more innovation. So keeping up the speed of this innovation coming from everywhere. Chad: Yes. Hendrik Schmahl: And then it's more like research and development and then really applying it into your production and supply chain. So it's changing actually jobs, products, and in my opinion, it's a very good logic to get more and more pushed to innovation rather than relying on the existing and making a couple of evolvements rather than revolutions. Joel: So Germany historically has been very union heavy. Right? Elon Musk, historically not union heavy. How's that gonna work out? Hendrik Schmahl: I think he's facing a couple of challenges in Germany. So as each company has to deal with it. Yeah. And the unions is not, not a bad thing about it, it's more like having a dialogue, getting them involved. Then you get also the support. Joel: Yes. Hendrik Schmahl: And at the end of the day, it's about the workforce and the human beings. And then we have the protection logic. We have a logic of being kind, keeping development, but also having the sort of job secureness. Which is a bit difficult for Americans to deal with. Yeah. So rather than saying, Hey, you're terminated and then... Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: And it's a different story. So you have to do a different kind of workforce planning and also along with this, with budget and expenses. Chad: So Germany is at the center of a lot of interesting activity in the vendor space in employment. Personio is a company that we talk about quite a bit on the European show, which is a German company. You have... Joel: Deutschland. Chad: You have Ronstadt buying Appcast, which was the 800 pound gorilla of programmatic advertising from the United States, and then bought Baird and created Appcast One. So there are a lot of things happening in Germany. What's your take on the companies that are being built, their impact on the German economy, how they're looked at from a brand perspective? Germany's having a moment. So bask in it and let us know your thoughts. Hendrik Schmahl: Yeah. First of all, I'm very proud that German offers this room for startups. And then really not only being a startup with a smaller platform, but really then getting larger and larger and larger. And when you look at our decks to our most 30 valued companies, then half of them are former startups. Joel: Really? Hendrik Schmahl: So they really exchanged... Joel: Half of them? Hendrik Schmahl: Half of them. Joel: Wow. Hendrik Schmahl: If you compare it 10 years ago or 20 years ago. Yeah. Then the names just disappeared and went into the M Ducks, D Ducks and so on. Joel: Wow. Hendrik Schmahl: So like delivery or... And something like this. So Ronstadt is the one thing which is just doing a expansion by inorganic growth. So they have to do this anyhow, otherwise they are getting just not recognized anymore. And you want to keep business. And Personio is a great example So it's still called a startup, even though they are, I don't know, existing since... Joel: Unicorn, yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: Yeah. Yes. Or something like this, but the logic on the momentum... Joel: Yes. Hendrik Schmahl: Maybe from SAP, HCM and Workday and as a potential Newlogic and with the Oracle stuff and so on. So it was like, okay, there was a momentum. Chad: Yes. Hendrik Schmahl: And I think there were growing successfully and now they have one and 1,500 employees or something like this. I'm not so quite sure, but, so they're getting recognizable. Joel: They're getting ready to expand into the US. Chad: Coming to America baby. Joel: And that's a big, big, big step. Chad: Yep. Joel: That's Neil Diamond right there. Chad: That is Neil Diamond worthy. So we work remotely. Is there, is education in Germany focused on startups? Are governments focused on giving money to companies? Like what's in the water in Germany that's starting all these companies? Because this is something new in our industry. Hendrik Schmahl: I think first of all Berlin is quite creative in the major hub for startups in Germany, followed by Munich. And now it's Hamburg I think. Chad: Is that capital money? Is that investment? Hendrik Schmahl: No. Chad: Private money? Hendrik Schmahl: It's private investment money. Joel: Okay. Hendrik Schmahl: But for me, it's a source, it's a creative people. So we are quite international in those cities. So it's not all about there's a German starting a startup. Yeah. It's more I don't care where they're coming from, but there's the environment, there's the ecosystem, and there are a lot of platforms you can exchange to learn from each other. And then you collaborate. And then I think ideas are getting larger and larger and then it becomes a company. Joel: Well, when you don't have to go to Silicon Valley to get money, that makes a big difference. And we're seeing this happen in Europe, and we talk about it quite a bit on the show. Chad: Yeah. But it's not... I mean, the Silicon Valley money, I mean Personio, they got a lot of cash. Right? But it's almost like they're spending cash better in Europe than they are in the US. I mean they're getting so much cash, or at least they were. Right? We were on that sugar rush for a while, and then there were nothing but fricking unicorns being manufactured. Do you think that as we take a look at all of these startups who got a lot of money, that we're gonna see a lot of dead unicorns soon? Hendrik Schmahl: I hope [laughter] actually. I hope. Joel: You hope? Hendrik Schmahl: I hope. Joel: Explain, explain. Hendrik Schmahl: Yeah. For me it's... In my particular profession, if you look what are kind of startups and unicorns over there then there are quite a lot of similarities across the startups. And like everything which is quite often there must be a consolidation. And then I even think that they're either making it together or then they're just disappearing. But for sure that they will be using the new technologies, the new logics and possibilities. Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: There must be unicorns. Yeah. And there's something becoming a unicorn maybe next year. And then there's getting commodity after three years. Yeah? So it's more like, I think there's a pace and the passion of technique and possibilities, they are just... They're there. They're just able to use it. Joel: I want to pivot us. Chad: Pivot. Joel: I want to pivot us to something that the HR practitioners out there need to hear, they probably want to hear, is around business and being more focused on business. Now, I know that, I mean, that's really, that's your wheelhouse. One of the things that we haven't been able to do, a lot of CHROs see themselves as cost centers instead of the actual people who are the heart and soul of the organization that make things work. 'Cause without talent, can't build cars. You can't develop cars, you can't... Right? You can't do any of this. So what are you doing to be able to help those companies get past time to hire, cost per hire and get all the way to the bottom line? Because the bottom line is the only thing that the board and the CEO and the C-suite care about, all the rest of those, they don't care. So what are you doing to help them? Hendrik Schmahl: We are helping them by the portfolio and the impact of the P&L. Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: As we're really talking about, okay, what is necessary, either in your supply chain, in your whole value chain. And what is it meant to be influenced by HR or by the workforce, by the people, by the skills you have or not have anymore, and so on. So it's more about becoming the business partner. That's an old fashioned word. Yeah. Like a buzzword. But understanding the business is first, listening to the business, is even weird. But that's a necessity. And then we are consulting CHROs or the HR organization that's more like a, should we really talk with a business or do they really know what they are expecting from HR? Joel: Right. Hendrik Schmahl: They say, Exactly. Listen to this, understand it, and then get the sense for the P&L impact. That's not about getting the payroll right. Yeah. So that's commodity. But it's even hiring. Yeah. As we hire as the best people in the short time when they are really necessary and on time, on sequence, we would say. Yeah. That's something that has an impact. If you're looking for salesperson and then they're not there, then you are not selling anything. Chad: Well and especially vital roles, right. Because we just saw many of the FANG organizations, the Facebook, the Amazons, the Googles, they were bloated. They did... These were not vital positions. They were hoarding talent. Right? And now they're flushing talent out. And then we're starting to see more companies and more companies doing that, who were trying to keep up with them before. Are we going to start focusing on the vital roles as opposed to just because the CRO wants to fill more roles, we know that the roles that we are focusing on are vital as opposed to we're just, we're just burning cash. Hendrik Schmahl: Yeah. And the other perspective. Yeah, you have a platform where people are working and all aiming for the same target. And that's great. There's creativity in the room, and then you develop something. But how to make out of a platform, a real functioning organization? That's something most of the countries are not capable to do. You may have incubators Yeah. And becoming a new business unit with new ideas with new people. Yeah? That there's something like that. But we have the governance in place that has to be applied for this too. Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: We have all those procedures and so on. But then they are starting to struggle, and then they are losing the talent again. It's more like a platform capability. And I don't want call it agile organization. Yeah. It's more like, it's really a platform. It's a competence. And then being able to distinguish between your hardcore production stuff. Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: Where there's crazy ideas. My new products, my new innovation actually. Joel: That sounds fancy. Platform. Chad: We're here at the Unleash World Conference in Paris. We're here in the Textkernel booth. What are some of your early takeaways and insights from the conference? Hendrik Schmahl: As I'm very impressed by all the startups I don't know. Joel: Yes. Hendrik Schmahl: So I really, I'm here actually to run around getting known each of the companies, of the startups to be just ahead of the new wave of innovations coming up. It's more like, you know, the standard softwares. Joel: Yeah. Hendrik Schmahl: And what they're capable. I love Textkernel. Yeah. I was really grateful for all the skill management and recruiting stuff. There are so many add-ons. Yeah. So many actually using AI stuff to make lovely work perfect and even smarter. That's actually why I'm here. And I'm very excited. So I met already 20 companies, I was not aware of them. Joel: Excellent. Chad: What an optimistic, feel good way to close this interview with Hendrik Schmahl everybody. He's the partner at EY. If they wanna know more about you Hendrik where would you send them? Hendrik Schmahl: To LinkedIn actually. Chad: LinkedIn. Joel: LinkedIn. Chad: That's Hendrik Schmahl everybody. We out. Joel: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. Outro: No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.