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This week, the boys discuss various topics including Indeed's layoffs, the ban on lab-grown meat in Alabama, Jerry Seinfeld's commencement speech, and the financial struggles of ZipRecruiter. They also dig into the introduction of Eightfold Talent Tracking, and the partnership between Stack Overflow and Indeed. They express their disappointment with ZipRecruiter's performance and call for better leadership. They criticize Eightfold for expanding too quickly and losing focus, and they mock the buzzword-filled description of their new product. They also question the strategy behind Twitter's, er, X's job recommendations and express their frustration with the lack of innovation. Finally, they discuss the controversy surrounding the Portal Project between New York and Dublin and how an OnlyFans model reminds us how much we all love boobies ... or is it potatoes? Eh, just listen. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION (blame Riverside for any imperfections :) Joel Cheesman (00:27.322) OHHHH YAAAAAAAAAAY! Joel Cheesman (00:33.082) just two guys fighting for the right to party since 1987. Hey, boys and girls, you're listening to the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Loch Ness cheeseman. Chad (00:45.842) EuroChat is back! So was. Joel Cheesman (00:48.57) And on this episode, Indeed cuts, zip drops, and New York flashes. Let's do this. Chad (00:57.966) last part. Joel Cheesman (01:01.996) Eurochad is back. Tan rested and ready. Chad (01:05.038) Baby, I am back. Yes, yes, I did. I was doing my work in Santa Fe prior, getting ready for this, getting a little tan, getting ready. Yeah, then jumped, obviously, you know, off the tower, which is apparently something that I needed to do before, you know, I did this. So yeah, no, we got back yesterday, last night, and whew, I am happy to be here. I'm so happy. Joel Cheesman (01:14.52) Yeah. Santa Fe Vegas primer was nice I'm sure. Joel Cheesman (01:32.026) Yeah. Yeah. Vegas was, I gotta tell you though, magic keeps calling, you know, magic. He just wants to hang out all the time. Now we're best friends. I don't know if he's, if you saw that or not, but yeah, magic, magic Johnson and I are BFFs. We're hanging out with MJ and bird, later tonight. We're, we're going to Chipotle for some barbacoa bowls later. Chad (01:38.606) Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Chad (01:44.942) Yeah, got a pad on the back and everything. Chad (01:51.534) Is he coming to Scotland? That's the question, because I mean, I think that is a great opportunity to get it and get magic to come to Scotland and, you know, do a little tour with magic. yeah. Joel Cheesman (02:00.122) How great are the Scots? How great, like how engaged and just like excited are the Scots? I reached out to my LinkedIn content, like you're coming here just for us. Like, yeah, dude, we're coming and the whiskey, but yeah, coming, coming for you guys. Yeah, it's going to be fun. Chad (02:08.502) yeah. Chad (02:19.15) Yeah, no, we're definitely coming for you. And if you have some whiskey, which I'm sure you do, go ahead and get it ready for. Joel Cheesman (02:26.458) Yeah, yeah, yeah, no doubt, no doubt. My liver is exercising in readiness for that, in readiness. So shout outs we got, I'm gonna go first here. Love the fans, love the fans, but one particular, Janet English, she works for Resume Library in the UK, but she's over here in the States. Had really nice things to say, I won't read the whole thing, but basically quote, Chad (02:32.61) Ehh Chad (02:37.262) shit. Okay. Chad (02:43.086) Hmm. Okay. Hello, Janet. Okay. Joel Cheesman (02:53.05) I've worked for resume library as an account manager for seven years and man, you guys make me giggle with your comments. And this is kind of a solid, consistent comment that I get. I think you do too. we're funny. I don't know. It's kind of like a grumpy old man or something. Make people laugh. We take people, they, people go walk the dog. They go do whatever and they like, just, we let them get away. We're the Cal gone. Chad (02:58.006) Wow. Chad (03:07.662) Yeah. Yeah. Chad (03:14.03) Don't go too far, okay? Joel Cheesman (03:22.596) were the Calgon of podcasts, I guess. But anyway, shout out to Janet English. Chad (03:25.998) You've got to remember, yes, shout out to Janet, no question. You got to remember though, the bar is very low for HR and tech podcasts and TA podcasts, right? So, you know, if we crack a joke every now and again, we become like the most hilarious thing in the space. But again, the bar is very low. Joel Cheesman (03:44.634) It is low, but we're competing with other podcasts. They could go listen to smart lists or Rogan or whatever, but Hey, they're listening to us. So shout out Janet. We love you. And we'll keep trying to be funny for you. Chad (03:50.154) yeah, no, that's a good point. It's a very good point. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Keep listening. yeah. And by the way, you know, if you're not subscribed to YouTube, go subscribe to YouTube. Give us a review. Love us, hate us. Doesn't matter. We love to hear the feedback. I mean, whether you like what I say, what do you like what Joel says, doesn't matter. We just love that you're listening and you're getting engaged in the discussion. And we don't ask that you agree with us. Never. Because hell, we don't even do that. Joel Cheesman (04:10.298) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (04:18.81) We're doing it wrong if everyone agrees with us, for sure. Chad (04:19.022) yes, you are 100 % right. I'm going to, I'm going to do a double Bama shout out. Are you ready for this? Joel Cheesman (04:30.362) Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready for the Bama combo. Chad (04:30.574) Yeah, I am. I am. Okay. So the first Bama shout out goes to the United Auto Workers. This from NBC News quote, workers at the Mercedes Benz plant in Alabama began voting Monday on whether to join the UAW union, a significant test of whether the labor group can maintain momentum in the historically anti -union American South end quote. VW joined the UAW in Tennessee, but Tennessee is not the deep south. Alabama is the deep south. So what do you think about this? Do you think Mercedes will end up joining in Alabama? Or do you think that the pressure is just way too much in the deep south for unions? Joel Cheesman (05:20.058) I like the unions. I like the unions everywhere. I like the UAW. I like fucking Apple, Apple union, allegedly boycotting or like picketing. I don't know what like unions are having a moment. Look, Mercedes has been in Alabama for a long time. They've spent a lot of money there. I just, I don't see any way that car companies, restaurants where like unions are having a moment until the robots take over. Chad (05:24.558) I did too. Chad (05:32.014) Yeah? Yeah? Chad (05:39.15) Yeah? Yeah. Joel Cheesman (05:48.954) I'm going to be team union on this one, whether it's in Alabama, Florida, New York, or Washington. Go unions. Chad (05:56.59) Yeah, I gotta say, Sean Fain became the UAW's president in March of 2023. It's just been over a year. It feels like he's been the president for a much longer just because of everything that he's done, because he led the union through the first simultaneous strike with GM, Ford and Stellantis, which resulted in 25 % wage increase kids and a return of cost of living adjustments for its members. So of course, Bama is going to want them some of that. Right? I mean, it's just, it's going to happen. It's going to happen. And then we'll go ahead and roll into my, my, my second Bama shout out goes to lab grown meat. Alabama is now the second state in the nation to ban the sale of cultured meat, AKA meat grown in the lab. Alabama governor Kay Ivey signed SB 23 into law making the manufacturer sale or distribution of food products produced from. cultured animal cells a class C misdemeanor as of October 1st, 2024. So, Cheeseman, are you ready for your... mean, Indiana still has the ability to do this. Are you ready to get your hands on a lab -grown meat burger? Joel Cheesman (07:12.794) You know, this, this is kind of close to home because my wife, she does a lot of work around insects as a protein. And while we're, I think we're a long way from human beings in America eating a billion, some people around the world eat bugs pretty regularly. and if we just replaced our dog, cat food, pet food, with, with insects and. Chad (07:19.854) Yeah? Yeah? Chad (07:29.774) Yeah? Yeah? Joel Cheesman (07:36.41) My dog eats it. Peepers is a young puppy at 12 and because he eats bugs. I mean, the food looks like dog food. He doesn't know any different. It's all protein. But that trend is stifled by the farming and the agriculture community and farmers, God love them. I have family members that are farmers. Like I love farmers, but they, in terms of protecting their nugget, Chad (07:37.26) Mm -hmm. Chad (07:41.39) Ha ha. Chad (07:45.412) yeah. Yeah. Chad (07:55.118) yeah. yeah. Lobby, baby. Lobby. Yep. Joel Cheesman (08:05.978) lobby Congress make these things laws where you can't grow meat in a lab or you can't like, like insects aren't subsidized meat is subsidized farming is subsidized. Like the government is behind this thing and to create laws where, we can't grow chicken in a lab. Like who cares? I mean, if you're in for animal, if you like animal welfare, there's no animals killed when you grow a chicken breast in a lab. And apparently it tastes pretty much the same. I know you're a big vegetarian. Chad (08:12.302) Mm -hmm. Chad (08:18.03) Yeah. All right. Chad (08:29.55) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (08:34.81) meat guy, but yeah, this is all just a power play to keep farmers and politicians in business and a stifling competition. I think overall it's a negative thing as much as I do love, love the farming community. I'm ready to eat whatever tastes like Chipotle. Yeah. If Chipotle can do this, I'm down. I'm down with it. I'm here for it. Chad (08:48.846) It is it is. Chad (08:55.79) thought it was interesting. I mean, I'm not personally a fan of the whole idea just thinking of animal cells in a lab that just doesn't get my appetite rolling. But did you know that US animal products are banned in other countries? US pork is banned in China, Russia and the EU. pre packaged ground beef, you know, the stuff with the pink slime is banned in the EU and US milk is banned in Japan. Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the EU. I mean, it just, because I was thinking, wow, we're banning stuff here. Do other countries ban the stuff that we do? And because of all the artificial dyes, the chemicals, the preservatives, the hormones, all that shit that we use in the US, yeah, most countries are like, no, we don't want any of that shit, right? We don't want that. So it's interesting that we have this idea of, Joel Cheesman (09:41.722) Mm -hmm. Chad (09:55.458) lab -grown meats, which again, I'm not against. I just don't find it appetizing myself. If somebody else does, that's fucking awesome. But what about the actual beef and dairy that we do here, that we have in the US? It's it's banned in other countries. Yeah, yeah. Joel Cheesman (10:10.426) Yeah, it's, it's ironic, right? We're going to ban lab grown meat, but Hey, those pesticides and preservatives. And I mean, not even just food. I know like tide is illegal in Europe because of whatever cleaning thing is in there is killing. I mean, Americans are the cockroaches of the world. Like we eat so much shit, put so much crap in our bodies. Like, Chad (10:17.358) All good. All good. Chad (10:26.286) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (10:33.338) When the world, when the shit hits the fan, the Americans are going to be left because we're the cockroaches eating and consuming all the shit in the world. We've survived all these pesticides and poisons. Everyone else is going to die and it's going to be America. America first, baby. America first. When the shit shit hits the fan. Geez. I don't know. Geez. Shout outs going long today. I'm going to make it quick. my, my second one, Jerry Seinfeld. Everyone knows Jerry, right? Seinfeld. Chad (10:34.382) Dude. Chad (10:52.046) fucking horrible. Okay. Chad (11:01.006) Yes. Joel Cheesman (11:01.57) Arguably the best show ever. definitely the best sitcom ever for my money. anyway, yeah, it's good that you say that. So show about nothing. Well, Jerry, Jerry's kind of taken stances now. Jerry's almost 70. He's, he's, he's got an opinion. The Israeli Gaza thing. he, he's obviously more vocal about, but anyway, he did the commencement speech at Duke, recently. The media made a big deal about, there were like 12 protesters and that was like the lead story. But the lead story to me was. Chad (11:06.126) Show about nothing. Yes, I loved it. Chad (11:18.19) Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah. Chad (11:31.47) Big deal. Joel Cheesman (11:31.63) Jerry was great. Like if you get a chance, go check out Jerry's commencement speech. It's very insightful. It's very funny. He defends comedy, not being too sensitive about, you know, the need to laugh as human beings to not take ourselves so seriously. I think it was a prescient, timely message. So shout out to Jerry Seinfeld. I really enjoyed his commencement speech at Duke University this week. Chad (11:47.854) Right. Mm -hmm. Chad (11:58.478) Very nice. What listeners really like is they really enjoy free stuff. You can get t -shirts by Aaron App. That's right, we've got the new t -shirt. And I don't know how many people that have actually have commented back to us that this is their favorite shirt design yet, right? So it's the Guns N' Roses, Chad and Cheese podcast design by Aaron App. And Aaron App even did their own custom. Joel Cheesman (12:06.298) Mm -hmm. Chad (12:27.83) logo on the back, which is awesome. Joel Cheesman (12:27.93) If you're on YouTube, you can see this is the actual packaging for the shirts. Look at this. We did branded. Chad (12:34.67) that's sexy. I tell you, go in the extra mile that Joel Cheeseman is, or is it Stella Cheeseman? Anyway, beer by Aspen Tech Labs. Joel Cheesman (12:46.682) Stella's just my sweatshop in the basement. That's what Stella is at the moment. Chad (12:52.462) I hope you don't put her in the basement. Beer by Aspen Tech Labs. That's right, kids. We'd love us some Aspen Tech Labs and some craft beer. Whiskey by Tex Kernel. Two bottles of whiskey from our friends at Tex Kernel. And if it's your birthday, it's a little rum from Plum. Go to ChadCheese .com slash free, register, and win. Chad (13:19.214) Clones. Joel Cheesman (13:19.29) That's that's right. Another trip around the sun for some of our listeners. Happy birthday goes to Michelle Sargent, Amy Butchko, Matt Brigham, Sarah Starkweather, Jacqueline Adair, Matt Soroka, Sean Campbell, Madison Richard, Michelle Beer, Stephanie Trisic, Maria Simelton, Bruce Carey, Tyler McEveley, Kevin Robinson, Matt Lavery, our favorite Chicagoan for the for the month. Anyway, Matt Kaiser and Richard Chad (13:44.078) Yeah, there he is. There he is. UPS baby. Joel Cheesman (13:49.146) Carlsley, I'll celebrate another trip around the sun. By the way, I just sent Rich, or Matt Slavery won the birthday this week, or this month, and I got robbed. Uber Eats, okay, I sent him, I bought a nice bottle of rum, and somehow he got a shitty bottle of Captain Morgan. Okay, nah, I ain't going. Chad (14:00.846) Mm -hmm, yeah. Chad (14:15.886) This has to be rectified. Joel Cheesman (14:17.21) I ain't going down like that. So I'm going to, I'm going to send Matt a real bottle and hope that Uber eats gets it right. and if not, I'm just going to send him some old style that he can drink while he watches the cubs lose this weekend. But Matt, I got Rob, man. We don't, we don't do that at Chad and cheese. We, we bring the good shit and I'm going to make sure you get some good shit. So, yeah, happy birthday. We'll make sure that, Matt is taken care of. Chad (14:42.862) Yes. And look for, we actually interviewed Matt during Unleash. It was an amazing, amazing, amazing interview. Matt works for UPS. He's been there for 27 years and man, he gives us a history lesson, not to mention he talks about business. We're not just talking about talent and all, I mean business. And I love that. I love when TA leaders talk about, and they understand business. And we're going to be talking to some TA leaders. Joel Cheesman (14:48.632) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (15:09.146) And a fan of unions, by the way, we're talking about unions there. That's. Chad (15:12.216) yeah, yes, yeah, because I mean, the union is pretty much a part of UPS, but we're going to be talking to some other town acquisition HR practitioners in Scotland next week in Glasgow. Chad (15:28.654) That's right. The 21st of May, Glasgow and Edinburgh on the 23rd of May. Go to truescotland .com and thank you so much. We've got to thank Daxstra. Got to thank Ashby, Willow, Poetry, Gig .ai, Solutions Driven. I mean, these guys stepped up to the plate pretty quickly with their kilts on and taking some swings. So we really appreciate that, guys. We're going to see you next week. Joel Cheesman (15:44.57) Mm, hell yeah. Chad (15:58.03) gonna have some fun pulling some content together and going to these, these true events in Scotland. Then we've got a double header coming up. Mr. Cheeseman with a rec fest happening in Nebworth Park. One day event, July 11th and then rec fest coming to Nashville, September 12th and 13th. I can't be more excited than to get back to. Joel Cheesman (16:07.97) Yep. Joel Cheesman (16:20.09) Mm. Chad (16:24.128) Wreckfest I just again, I love events I love being able to get out and see the people but Wreckfest is just a different animal and if you're a practitioner that's out there This is what this is what you need to be doing There's already a company that has and I don't know if I can tell the name yet. They've they bought like a hundred tickets a hundred tickets for their entire TA staff TA and I'm sure some of the HR staff are coming to Joel Cheesman (16:46.266) Wow. Chad (16:51.854) but a very big company because why? Because Wreckfest is a pretty much easy button for your all hands day. Bring the entire crew, bring the entire group that come out to listen, learn and have some fun. Wreckfest at Nedworth Park and also Nashville. Go to chadcheese .com slash events and you'll see the information right there. Come to both. Joel Cheesman (17:19.066) Love it. I wonder if the 100 tickets was for Indeed because at this rate that's about how many employees they're going to have at the end of the day. Which brings us to... Chad (17:29.55) Ouch. ZAPIX! Joel Cheesman (17:35.78) shit. Let's talk layoffs. Indeed .com announced a significant workforce reduction of about a thousand employees this week, which is approximately 8 % of its global workforce. CEO Chris Hyam cited the need to simplify the organization for faster decision -making and to drive revenue and hires more effectively. The layoffs are concentrated in the U S particularly affecting the R and D. and some go -to -market teams. Chad, a thousand new people need Indeed this week. Indeed they do. Your thoughts. Chad (18:14.744) Okay, so the letter that Chris Himes wrote, I'm going to give you a quote out of it, quote, I am responsible for how we got here and the entire senior leadership team is responsible for making the difficult decisions necessary to help set us up for the future. We know that these decisions will have a significant impact on people's lives. End quote. No shit, Chris. And this isn't the first time that you've had to cut heads. Your way. I don't know how many times I need to say it. He's not the guy for the job right now. He was the guy for the job for a few years, right? He's not the guy for the job now. He's not the guy who can actually take Indeed to the next level. And if you take a look at some of the SIA information that came out, the global market for online job ads fell 5%. to 34 .4 billion in 2023 compared to the previous year, again, from SIA. Still, online job advertising revenue grew 151%, 151 % between 2015 and 2023, according to the same SIA report. Only being down 5%, right? 151%, that's not sustainable. There's going to be a drop, right? But the thing is... CEOs have to learn how to grow responsibly. And when you're cutting this many heads, I know this is 8%, but this isn't the first cut, right? You've got, yeah, I mean, this is, who needs to go at this point? It needs to be the guy at the top. Why? Because he's responsible. He even said that he's responsible. So if I am a board member, I'm looking for a replacement, a capable replacement who knows. Joel Cheesman (19:55.834) It's a thousand people. It's a lot of people. Chad (20:13.774) how to drive an organization like Indeed to grow responsibly, sustainably. Chris is not the guy, I'm sorry. And it sounds like I'm calling for a lot of heads here lately as I did for Ian's at Zip. But I think both of those organizations are at the point where, I mean, you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say, hey, am I the right guy for this? There are many people are not gonna look at themselves and say, yeah, I need to go ahead and I need to find my next thing. These two, these guys are not it. And unfortunately, you know, I don't know who's going to be, be able to put a boot in their ass, but they're not going to do it to themselves. Joel Cheesman (20:55.834) That's a very interesting perspective. Recruit Holdings owns Indeed. Recruit Holdings is a staffing company. They bought Indeed 10 plus years ago. They bought Glassdoor kind of as a way to make sure ZipRecruiter didn't buy them at the time or someone else didn't. So there's a question of whether Chris is the guy to lead Indeed, but is Recruit... the right organization to run a job site. I think there's, there's ample argument to say like, recruit may not know what the fuck they're doing with, with indeed Chris from all accounts is a nice guy. He looks like if you and I had a love child, it might look a little bit like Chris Himes, but that's aside from the point. So you bring up an interesting point and I would say like, I don't know if recruit holdings knows what the hell they're doing. They're a great staffing company, billions and billions in revenue, but. Chad (21:49.294) Could be. Joel Cheesman (21:51.194) I think juries out as to whether or not that they know what the hell to do with a, with a job site. And then they just launched, like a go, on demand job site in Japan. We'll see where that goes probably nowhere. but yeah, no, it's, it's, it's in beta now. It's only, it's Japan only anyway, listen to the shred. the shred has some insight into that. I just forget, what that was. Chad (22:03.246) Yeah, indeed go wasn't it? Chad (22:12.406) Joel Cheesman (22:17.946) But to me, like you mentioned, layoffs previously, and that was back in March of 23, they laid off a 15 % of the workforce back then. It was around 2200 now, back then everyone was laying off, you know, multiple percentages of people. So maybe it was less, less big of a news, but to then come back to the table, and cut 8 % like that's significant. That's significant 15 and then 8 % of the workforce. Chad (22:42.926) It is. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (22:44.41) I point a lot of this to not only maybe mismanagement from recruit holdings and Chris being the wrong guy, but also value act, which took a stake in recruit holdings back in November of 23. let me get this right. at the time they said, the two companies were set to benefit from smarter pricing, better cost management, and shrewd modernization of the services used to run websites, translation year of efficiency, cut fat. cut heads do what private equity does and that's cut fat and increase profits. The problem is the profits aren't coming. So is this the end of the cuts? Like, I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure. From what I heard is they were waiting for this new sourcing tool to be completed before they did anything. Recruit Holdings just announced their quarterly earnings. I'm sure they had to like, Chad (23:30.158) Yeah. Chad (23:38.606) Mm. Joel Cheesman (23:41.53) put some cloud cover with their earnings, which were awful with, Hey, we cut some people, cut some staff. So this is really just bad all around. sort is sourcing going to fix it? I don't think so. I think the, the four apocalypse are in full, full effect right now. I've, you know, the, the job board doctor is really quiet these days. I can't imagine why, and as we get to our next story, it's even worse for them, but yeah, it's. Chad (23:46.222) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (24:09.082) Things are bad for indeed in getting worse. I don't see any turnaround. They need a tech savvy guy that understands the internet because these staffing guys don't know what the fuck they're doing. Chad (24:20.302) So, I mean, cutting R &D and go to market, I mean, is that a way forward? I mean, is that really the way forward? I mean, you've got a platform that's 20 years old. And we've talked about like this with LinkedIn too. You know, how do you get through this? I mean, you've got a platform that should, to be quite frank, should be really matching jobs and delivering. Joel Cheesman (24:23.166) yeah, good idea. R &D, cut that. Chad (24:48.046) qualified jobs to qualified or jobs to qualified individuals, right? You should be there already. There's no reason we should not be there as an industry and indeed should have been leading that. The problem is they still have shitty tech. I mean, it's just it's it's crazy. Just listening to some of this shit, man. It's it's it's ridiculous. I don't get it. I just don't get it. Joel Cheesman (24:51.002) Yeah. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (25:08.954) Yeah. Yeah. Usually the stories now are like, Hey, we're automating customer service. We're automating, you know, cutting sales staff and automating that process or marketing. You rarely ever hear about R and D, going, going to the wayside. So that's again, again, not a good sign, but from bad to worse, let's get to another, let's, this is our red, our red meat segment here. Chad (25:21.614) Yeah, ain't good at market. Jesus. Chad (25:33.71) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (25:34.402) All right, let's talk about zip recruiter. Good God, here we go. From bad to worse, ZipRecruiter had a difficult first quarter featuring a significant, significant revenue decline and its first net loss since Q2 of 2021. The company reported a revenue of roughly $122 million, which was a 33 % decrease. Let me repeat that, a 33 % decrease from the previous year. This financial downturn was attributed. Chad (25:53.038) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (26:05.754) to a depressed labor demand and market factors. The company also experienced a 32 % drop in the number of paying employers. Chad, you weren't a fan of Zip's CEO before this report. How do you feel about the situation at Zip Recruiter now? Chad (26:25.23) Yeah, this doesn't feel like the red meat segment. It feels like the CEO heads need to roll segments. Yeah, I mean, you just, I mean, you lined it out there. I mean, revenue down 33 .5 % net loss, net loss 230%. One more time, net loss 230%. So as I stated earlier in the segment, the market is seeing a 5 % drop. 5 % drop, single digit, right? And we're seeing 230 % net loss. Yeah, I mean, if it's not a, I just don't know what needs to happen for organizations to understand that, cutting thousands of people like Zip and Indeed both have, once you do that and that doesn't. remedy the problem, you might need to look at the top of the ivory fucking tower for God's sakes. We need better leadership in these positions. And as I'd said before, Ian, I thought was incredibly innovative until they got to IPO. I don't know if he got across that IPO finish line and just he's taken a fucking nap or what's going on. But I mean, things have gone from innovation to non -existent. Joel Cheesman (27:53.498) I'll try to be as nice about this as I can. zip recruiter right now is a pile of dog shit sprinkled with cat turds stock down 8%, which by the way, it's down quite a bit. before that look, you had a great brand, a brand that represented hourly work, seasonal work, part -time work. and it was the gold standard for that market. They lost their shit. Chad (28:22.35) Was, yeah. Joel Cheesman (28:22.586) decided to create a brand for everybody, put some Phil AI bullshit as, as their mascot slash tech, they went AI, they went enterprise and they went IPO and it's been a shit show ever since. They're not going to go back to what they were. The game is up. They're in Santa Monica, California. It's much nicer to go to the beach and hang out there than it is to like figure out this company. Chad (28:38.51) And then they went to shit. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (28:52.09) I think that your calls for Ian to go are legit. This company is going nowhere fast. And if we get into like recession territory in the greater economy, like you're going to see some real pain at a place like ZipRecruiter. If I'm an employee at ZipRecruiter right now, I'm really nervous and I'm updating my LinkedIn profile. Chad (29:01.902) Mm -hmm. Chad (29:19.502) Yeah, yeah. I mean, we take a look at sports. We see like quarterbacks who've lost a step and they just get, they get hammered. And so does the, so does the team. The CEO has got to, again, they've got to take a look. It's like, Hey, look, you've lost a step. you know, maybe you should go back and try another startup or something. You can't, you can't be in the NFL anymore. You need to be in the UFL maybe. Joel Cheesman (29:44.218) Look, Ian was great at building a brand, getting a niche and being the best service in that niche. They were a better, cooler Craigslist for that market and they have lost their way. It's time to make some serious changes at ZipRecruiter if they're going to save that thing. Chad (29:49.934) taking it to IPO. Chad (29:56.014) Yeah. Chad (29:59.436) Wow. Chad (30:04.302) Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Joel Cheesman (30:07.386) Hmm. All right. More red meat for the listeners. Eightfold has introduced Eightfold Talent Tracking, an AI native applicant tracking system aiming to streamline HR technology investments and enhance the talent acquisition process, promising to accelerate successful job offers, provide a cohesive experience for talent teams and candidates. Chad (30:15.244) Hmm. Joel Cheesman (30:35.226) and offer skills based compensation intelligence. Don't call it an ATS Chad. Your thoughts on eight folds talent tracking. Chad (30:47.31) Yeah, so when Eightfold took 125 million back in October of 2020, I said that that kind of money means that they're going to have to become some sort of platform. And my prediction was that platform is going to have to be an applicant tracking system. I doubled down when Eightfold received an additional 220 million in June of 2021, less than a year from each other. I mean, they had $345 million in less than a year. Now, taking hundreds of millions of dollars in that short amount of time means there has to be some grander vision that investors bought into. And that vision could have been owning your specialty and then landing new customers and then slowly expanding your product base organically into that portfolio. That's how you gain wallet share. That's responsible growth. But... You can also expand your offerings too fast. And I remember back in my monster days, so story time kids, we were killing the job revenue game. And then we started expanding into areas that we had no expertise. So do you remember Monster Momentum, that product? Yeah, of course you don't. Of course you don't. It was an applicant tracking system that never took off. Why didn't it take off? Joel Cheesman (32:00.122) No, I do not remember monster momentum. huh. Chad (32:10.548) Monster was a job listing service. And then the Monster staff, they were wonderful at selling and servicing and upselling those job ad accounts, but they were never an HR tech company. That's an entirely different animal. And that's why Monster Momentum never made it out of the cradle. So that's what I'm seeing here with Eightfold. Not only did they start out as a matching platform, they weren't even a leader in that specific domain. Monster was at least a leader in a domain before they started to step out of it, right? Before they failed miserably with Monster Momentum. So Eightfold takes more money and dramatically opens up their total addressable market with regard to solutions offering and expanding their geographic footprint. I just don't think Eightfold, you know, I think they're not gonna fail because they're launching. an applicant tracking system, I believe eightfold will fail because they are growing their total addressable market at an unsustainable rate. Taking too much money too fast. That can really blur your vision and your discipline goes out the window. And then you become an expert at nothing. And I was thinking about this kind of like with ZipRecruiter, but this goes along with... This goes along with eightfold too. What's the easiest way to get $100 million in your bank account? Start with $345 million. Joel Cheesman (33:49.818) Mark Twain said I went broke slowly and then all of a sudden or suddenly, you know, Chano Fernandez, the former co CEO of Workday became the co CEO of Eightfold in January of this year. So are we surprised that innovation out of Workday's fold co CEO is in is in the the form of an ATS that they somehow want to rename talent tracking. Chad (33:54.734) Hahahaha Chad (34:06.894) weird. Weird. Chad (34:16.622) yeah. Joel Cheesman (34:19.514) because we're eightfold and we're cool. So let me, let me give, let me give you the quote from the press release. Let me get this right. Okay. Quote talent tracking is our latest leap into the future. A revolutionary tool that's been designed from the ground up with responsible AI and unparalleled user experience. Top of mind that's CEO Ashutosh Gara of eightfold. Chad (34:23.342) Mmm. Joel Cheesman (34:49.752) Fuck you, it's an ATS. These guys are the masters of like shining a turd. This is what they do. They put so many buzzwords and like what the cool kids are saying and consumers are going, what the fuck did they just say? But I'm all for it because AI and revolutionary and all these cool words are using it. These... Chad (35:05.262) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm -hmm. Chad (35:11.982) Exactly. Chad (35:17.87) Buzzword bingo. Joel Cheesman (35:18.746) These guys are this is the Emperor has no clothes. This is an ATS. This is revolutionary 25 years ago. And you guys are acting like you just split the atom in 1945. Like, fuck you, man. I God, this company is so full of shit. Look, they got money, they built a product, they built a brand, they had a chance to sell it. They didn't. Okay, so now they're in a spot where let's let's hire work days guy. Let's build like everything for everybody. And just like workday, they're going to be okay for most things, but not really great at everything. And that's where this company is going. It'll be fun to watch and talk about but God the Chad (35:46.286) Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Chad (35:59.278) Yeah. Right. Joel Cheesman (36:08.346) It's so frustrating to like read this shit and know that consumers are going, I bought a cool product when you didn't. It's an A fucking T fucking S fucking eightfold man. Jenny, Jenny Kangas, man, please help me. Help me. Our friend of the show is a new employee there. Help us understand this thing because from where I sit, this is a turd with some Shinola on it and nothing else. Chad (36:22.286) So that. Chad (36:28.75) I don't know. Chad (36:38.478) Hmm. So in the interesting thing is Workday bought Hired Score, right? Who actually they did focus specifically on a domain and get that domain right. I think that it's kind of like the tale of two cities there. I mean, obviously Hired Score didn't take hundreds of millions of dollars, which I think was incredibly smart for Hired Score. But again, we're talking, you know, two tales here and Workday not buying eightfold. Right? I mean, after taking all that money, how the fuck could I mean, that's just that just crazy cash. But then being able to go after a company like Hired Score again, I mean, I just think we talked about it on the show a million fucking times. There is such a thing as taking too much money. As a matter of fact, taking too much money will probably kick you in the nuts much faster than not getting enough. Joel Cheesman (37:31.194) I'm on record. I'm not convinced work day. Isn't going to fuck up that acquisition. I'm on record. I'm on record. Well, time will tell time. We'll talk. I need a breather. Let's take a break and, go back to the future. Everybody. Chad (37:38.796) Okay. Joel Cheesman (37:49.336) All right, Chad, it's time for Back to the Future. Chad (37:50.926) get you a paper bag. Joel Cheesman (37:57.658) That's right. Just like eightfold thinking that launching an ATS is cool. Let's go back to the future with starting. Elon Musk is doubling down on recruitment X the artists formerly known as Twitter is rolling out job recommendations in the U S market. A continuation of the X hiring project that began life in July of last year and a post on the site X hiring announced quote, you can now start seeing. personalized job recommendations directly on your timelines tailored to your preferences." End quote. Chad, you've been pretty consistent on your less than glowing opinion of Musk and ex jobs. Does this one change your mind? Chad (38:46.858) We have tech companies building models that are ingesting data, contextualizing and matching jobs to candidates. We have tech companies who are building engagement and experience systems. We have large language models. We have all, I mean, multimodal. All this stuff is going on and yet this is the original job board job search agent that we had over 25 years ago. And I'm not saying that. You have to be on the razor's edge of innovation in our space. But from what I'm seeing, Twitter doesn't even understand the basics or even where to start building today's engagement platform. And that's what you need to build if you want to drive Musk -like revenue. They're not going to get there. They're lost in the sauce. If you know how to build a system from the ground up, you will look at this and say, These guys are throwing shit at the wall. They have no fucking clue what they're doing. And they're starting with 1998 job search shit, 97, 96 job search agents. This is ridiculous. Joel Cheesman (39:59.13) So let's take a quick glance at Elon's resume. The dude launches rockets and then he brings them back and lands them. Okay? The Chinese can't figure that shit out. Okay? This guy revolutionized electric vehicles. I own a Tesla. It's amazing. No matter, well, my wife owns a Tesla. She says it's amazing. And when she lets me drive it, It seems amazing. This is a guy who is giving internet to Ukraine from space as it's fighting Russia. This is a guy who's digging holes in Vegas, creating an entire like transit system under the ground in Vegas. And this, and this, this is innovation. Like this, this is what they're doing. Chad (40:43.342) I don't believe they're paying for it, yeah. Chad (40:50.446) Not anymore. Not anymore. Joel Cheesman (40:58.522) man. I mean, there's low hanging fruit. Apparently they're not getting enough subscribers to their service and jobs is low hanging fruit. I mean, he's talked shit about LinkedIn every week for the last year. Let's see some LinkedIn competitor shit. Let's see like some real shit showing me jobs in my feed. Isn't innovation dude. Like I just, I'm so Chad (40:59.374) I could do I get nothing. Chad (41:21.198) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (41:28.628) disappointed that he just he's out of his element dude, get out of hire a CEO that knows tech or has done this shit before. An ex like someone from LinkedIn, like that would be interesting and do LinkedIn stuff from LinkedIn. This is a guy who is a genius and this is what innovation is out of Twitter hiring, ex hiring, whatever the fuck we're calling it like. they might get a few more clicks from their relationship with AppCast or whoever's putting jobs on there now, but man, there seems no traction of companies like getting the gold check and get my jobs on there. Those are the releases I wanna see, not some crazy jobs in your feet, everybody. Yay. Really disappointing, really disappointing. Chad (42:17.454) Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, the biggest issue that we have here is that they know what their problem is, and that's lack of user data. OK. And we're talking about user data. We mean like LinkedIn has pretty much our whole profile on there, our whole career profile, right? Twitter doesn't have that. They're not going to gain access to it. So what are they going to do? Well, they're just going to go into tell me what you want and we'll deliver it bullshit. I mean, again, this to me, this is not where you start, okay? You have the ability to actually start building and engaging your users to get more data from them. This is not it. This is not it. Joel Cheesman (43:03.642) You know what I would be more impressed with? I would be more impressed if Twitter said, you know what? Every time someone tweets out, I hate my job. My boss is an asshole. Like fuck the man. We're going to give them jobs because we know they're pissed at their workplace and we're going to give them jobs based on where they are. Geo locate jobs. That's something that's new. Like that's something you can do that most other people can't, but no, we get, yeah. Recommended jobs in your feed. Chad (43:23.438) It's a signal. Yeah, it's a signal. That's signal. Joel Cheesman (43:32.922) everybody. That's Chad (43:34.67) Well, if they did that, and then they could also have, they could partner with companies that actually already have a lot of profile data, or they could make it easier to make their profile more robust, but they're just, they're not going through that process, and that's where you start. You don't start with this bullshit. This is not where you start. Anyway, stupid. Joel Cheesman (43:56.474) connect my Twitter email with my application at whatever company and grab my profile from the ATS, bring it into the data set of what I have on Twitter and serve me jobs based on what my resume is from my ATS application. Like there's so much cool shit they could do, but this is what they get, man. This is, it's awful. Chad (44:04.494) Mm. Chad (44:22.478) Got nothing. Joel Cheesman (44:24.898) All right. More back to the future shit. That's right. I want to play the sound by it again. Stack overflow has partnered with indeed on a quote new version of stack overflow jobs. This experiment will explore a dedicated space that puts thousands of highly relevant jobs at the fingerprints of developers. The job site is currently available in the U S and may eventually expand to more markets. Chad (44:29.294) Whoo. Joel Cheesman (44:52.73) It's a co branded job board, Chad, how innovative your thoughts? Chad (44:59.342) Yeah. Remember back in the job backfill Olympics days when Indeed and Simply Hired were literally racing to build search widgets and blog job search platforms just to say that they've got their shit out there all over the place. This is the same thing. I mean, and that was over a decade ago. So, you know, here we go again. Joel Cheesman (45:04.426) yeah. Joel Cheesman (45:10.778) Mm -hmm. Chad (45:21.966) I was a huge proponent of stack going into the jobs business because they have enough data on their user base to feed relevant jobs, which was why I was surprised when they shut it down. And now to be replaced with this seems incredibly lazy. Why is it lazy? Here's a quote off the Stack Overflow website, quote, Stack Overflow and indeed have clearly defined criteria based on job title, job title. to ensure jobs posted on Stack Overflow jobs are relevant to a technical audience, end quote. Yes, kids, job titles. Not relevance, not fit to skills, no matching, just keyword search variables. The same shit that we were doing back in the late 1990s. I don't understand this. Indeed, there's gotta be some kind of revenue play here, some form, some fashion. I'm sharing click, click money, who knows, but I mean, this is, this is just weak sauce. Joel Cheesman (46:29.178) Speaking of Back to the Future, when I worked at JobOptions, our entire marketing strategy and acquisition strategy was partnerships. I was the partnership dude at one point where we would just put a jobs link on these sites and we would create a white label, co -branded job site. People would search for jobs and then we would split revenue. If someone posted a job, they'd get 30%, we'd get 70%, whatever. Chad (46:29.194) I'm Chad (46:50.222) Right. Yep. Everybody did it. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (46:57.978) and then indeed happened and API has happened and search happened and it became really easy for someone to plug in an API and do searches and have jobs. And then on a pay per click basis, you'd get paid a portion of the click. Like AdSense kind of took that model out of, out of circulation. And I can remember paying some bigger sites, you know, quite a bit of money at the time for like the real estate. Chad (47:20.174) and killed it. Joel Cheesman (47:26.65) to have a job section. We had some portals that are no longer around, but we would pay them for that privilege for whatever reason. I indeed has killed their API thing. I don't know if it was like competitive, like put job boards out of business or like stick it to whatever. There's too much spam or maybe fraud. Maybe click fraud was a big issue. I don't know, but they killed it. And then a few months or a year later, they're like, we're doing this network thing. we have healthcare and we have tech and all these little partnerships. I'm like, you had it. So I don't know what happened to where they kind of went back and then are coming back. I agree that the stack overflow is, is a nice partnership to have. Stack overflow is very non -committal on this though. They're like, well, we're in the U S we may, may launch it somewhere else. literally the, the press release, from the CEO of Sackoverlose. Chad (48:18.548) yeah. Joel Cheesman (48:25.594) was quote, our primary goal with Stack Overflow jobs is to simply learn. Does that sound like a committed company ready to put jobs in front of the users? Probably because their users hate jobs. their users aren't like, they say that the users like jobs, but I bet like it's a thing that people don't like on Stack Overflow that want jobs to get headhunter calls all the time. I think, I think indeed is writing a check. I think indeed is writing a big check. Chad (48:36.238) No, no, no. Joel Cheesman (48:55.546) And Stack Overflow is like, we can't say no. They made them an offer they couldn't refuse. He took the deal, but he's also saying like, Hey, we're not, it's just kind of a thing. We're just learning here. We're just cashing checks. It's all good. and then indeed can go to their, their customers and go, Hey man, we got this cool network of tech people. We're on Stack Overflow, which puts more money in indeed spot. So I think, I think this is just like, Chad (49:09.07) Yeah. Yeah. Chad (49:19.18) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (49:21.754) Money and Stack Overflow, Indeed's writing a check. They're sucking it out of customers who are like, we need tech people and Indeed has this partnership with Stack Overflow. It's regurgitating the past. A lot of it is because Google traffic has slowed down. So we've got to find other ways to do it. By the way, we don't talk enough on this show about generative AI and search results on Google. Almost every Google search now is just like, here's the answer. Chad (49:47.886) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (49:50.426) I don't have to click on a site. I don't have to go anywhere. Like that's really bad, not just for big sites, but that's really bad for little sites and con like content creators. that's hitting indeed and everybody else. So they need to find ways to put jobs in front of people through these partnerships. and this is just another example of what they're doing. I expect them to hit the healthcare market pretty heavy, here in the next 12, 24 months as well. We'll be talking about those partnerships. Chad (49:55.054) And they give you the source. Chad (50:18.734) Yeah, it just seems like a couple of, once again, two markets that are not the same at all, and that indeed they're not experts in. So, you know, it'll be interesting. Again, I think this is more jazz hands than anything else. Look at what I have here. Look at what I have here. Yeah, but you don't have the people actually engaging. You don't have the outcomes. And not to mention, if you could get all that fucking data. Joel Cheesman (50:32.376) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (50:40.12) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (50:44.506) Mm -hmm. Chad (50:45.678) and you can match against it. wait a minute. Your matching sucks. I guess it doesn't matter. Joel Cheesman (50:49.178) Yeah, here's the, we learned at job options that roughly three to 5 % of the traffic actually will click on jobs. So, you know, indeed it's going to sell this as like, Hey man, everybody on stack overflow is going to the jobs and they're checking your shit out. Like, especially with this audience, I bet it's like one to 2 % are going to click over and look for jobs. So look, if. Chad (50:57.166) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (51:12.922) If you're an employer and you get a call from Indeed and they start pitching Stack Overflow and how hot it is and how cool it is, do some data dive and see what kind of percentage actual traffic from Stack Overflow is going to the jobs. Chad (51:29.87) Lots of luck kids, lots of luck. Joel Cheesman (51:30.874) Well enough of this trip down memory lane. Let's get back to what we know best. Only fans will be right back. Chad (51:43.854) All right. This is in Euro Chad mode and this has been really a downer episode because all of these companies we're talking about are doing stupid shit. Can you give me something that will uplift everybody's soul, please? Joel Cheesman (51:45.484) Yep. Joel Cheesman (51:55.738) Well, I will, I will categorize this as the why we can't have nice things, discussion, but so let's set the table here. there's a, there's an organization, they're kind of artsy charity thing. It's portals .org. I think. So they take this big circle thing. It's called the portal and they connect two communities to each other around the world. And it's like a camera, a live stream of people in an area. And you've probably seen this on the news. It's kind of a big creepy Lord of the Rings, eye in the sky thing that you can kind of see through and see people. So you've probably seen this on the news. They recently connected Dublin, Ireland with New York city. Like who thought that was a good idea? needs to like check themselves because these are two demographics. Like, let's be honest. Chad (52:27.214) It's like a big Facebook portal, right? I mean... Chad (52:45.518) No problem there. Joel Cheesman (52:52.602) are prone to a little bit of knuckleheadedness. Okay. So, so, so Ireland starts showing pictures of like the world trade center, the twin towers burning. Like they start, they, they started it. Ireland started it from what I understand. So then New Yorkers start putting like pictures of potatoes, just like stupid shit, right? Flipping them off. suck it, you know, suck it Ireland, whatever. So you know where this is going, dude. You know where this is going. A New Yorker, her name is Ava Louise, probably not her real name. She decides to flash the Dublin faithful. I don't think there were any angry customers on that, but it sparked, it sparked outrage and it has shut down the portal. for now, it probably never will come back on between Dublin and New York. It needs to be like Boise and I don't know, Cork or something. No, Cork's probably even worse. Anyway, so the joke's on us, okay? So Ava, she's on OnlyFans, imagine that, she's on OnlyFans. So there's no bad advertising, there's only good advertising. So she is, yeah, she's. Chad (54:02.446) Hey. Chad (54:08.142) Yeah. create promotion. God, no. Especially with boobies. I mean, come on. Joel Cheesman (54:16.698) She's gone from 400 ,000 Instagram followers, which was not too shabby. I think to like 450 the last time I checked for flashing her boobs and sex sells as you know, Chad. So she made it, she's increased her monthly revenue on OnlyFans after this incident, 8 ,000 pounds per month. Chad (54:32.714) yeah. Joel Cheesman (54:41.338) What is that? That's like, that's like 9 ,000, $10 ,000 in USD. yeah, this was an English English story, so I don't know. But yeah, for, for flashing Ireland, she's getting $10 ,000 more per month on, on her only fans. Thanks to her transatlantic flashing. This is why we can't have nice things, Chad. Chad (54:44.558) Wow. Yeah, yeah. Chad (55:01.614) This is, I mean, first and foremost, let's just be frank here. Everybody loves boobies. I mean, boobs are welcomed everywhere. They're universal, right? Yes. So, you know, I think she was just trying to bring the temperature down, which I appreciate. Joel Cheesman (55:13.434) Universal. Universally loved. Chad (55:24.558) And I think to be quite frank, we should probably do this whole boobies tour all over the world to bring the temperature down guys, bring the temperature down. And just so that everybody out there knows, we're going to have a Chad and cheese portal, where we're going to invite Ava and the rest of the world to bring the temperature down because Chad and cheese and all of you love boobies and we love to deescalate. Joel Cheesman (55:46.714) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (55:53.882) Chad and cheese do love boobies everybody. Her quote was that she just wanted to show Ireland her potatoes. Appropriate, appropriate. By the way, Chad, I haven't gotten a dad joke in this week. How do you make an Irishman cry? Chad (55:53.902) issues. Chad (56:02.958) Okay, I'll take it. I'll take it. Yes. Chad (56:11.566) Take away his Guinness. Joel Cheesman (56:12.186) Say last call. We out. Chad (56:15.646) We out!

Jay Polaki, CEO and founder of HR Geckos, joins the Chad and Cheese Podcast for a session of Firing Squad. HR Geckos is an HR operations co-pilot that automates key HR processes, connects all HR systems, and provides an AI-powered help desk for HR. Jay shares her personal journey in HR and the inspiration behind starting HR Geckos. The company aims to replace fragmented HR systems with a unified, digital platform that connects employees to the information and services they need. Jay discusses the competitive landscape, pricing, go-to-market strategy, and the importance of partnerships. The hosts provide feedback and advice on raising funds, building a team, and scaling the business. Does she survive the Firing Squad? Gotta listen to find out. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Joel Cheesman (00:21.115) Uhhhh YEAH!~ Come on, another Firing Squad. What's up, everybody? It's Balaque's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co -host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the key to my peel, Chad Sew Wash is in the house. And we're happy to welcome Jay Palacky, not Balaque, CEO and founder at HR Geckos, two HRs, most dangerous podcast. Jay, welcome to Firing Squad. Chad (00:36.127) Hello. Jay (00:49.934) Glad to be here and I'm ready with my bazooka, Joel and Chad. Joel Cheesman (00:54.011) she's going to fire back on us, Chad. She's ready. She's ready. So, so real quick, real quick, Jay, if there's, if there's a picture under the word persistence in the dictionary, it's Jay, because she has been lobbying so long to be on the show. so, so finally you've achieved your goal, Jay. Congratulations. You're on the podcast. Most of our listeners will not know who you are. We like to get a little flavor of what makes you tick here on Firing Squad. So give us the personal side of Jay. Chad (00:54.559) fighting back. I love it. I love it. I love it. Jay (01:23.598) Well, thank you again for accepting my numerous emails and messages to have me on the show, Joel and Chad. So glad to be here. Hi, everyone. I'm Jay Palaki, the chief gecko, AKA CEO of HR Geckos. And to keep the geckos in the conversation, I'll borrow a term from Botany. I've had a very, very gated. start to my career. I started in IO Psych. That's my background. Believe it or not, I started working for the beer giant Anheuser -Busch as an external consultant. And I've had many, many instances where I doubted whether I still wanted to be in HR. Like when I got shot at when accompanying the LASD, LA Sheriff's Department's Deputy. on a job analysis and the viewers, you know, in the middle of a chase, a car thief started shooting at our convoy. And then, yeah, so I've been in the line of gunfire, real gunfire. And, you know, I've also had the real pleasure of visiting some of the Chicago fire stations, one notable one being the one in ladder 49. Chad (02:29.055) Hello. Joel Cheesman (02:29.915) Yikes. Yeah, I draw the line at gunfire. Chad (02:38.047) Yeah. Jay (02:48.75) the Kurt Russell movie. And, you know, so that's been my variegated start in HR and I've been in HR for over 20 years. Chad (02:57.855) 5G action. Joel Cheesman (02:58.811) 5G action, yep. Jay (03:01.294) So this is HR Geckos is my baby. So I've built HR Geckos from all of my experience. Joel Cheesman (03:07.003) Okay, okay. Well, let's stop you there before you get into your baby chat. Tell her what she's won today on Firing Squad. Chad (03:16.127) Welcome Jay, this is how a firing squad is going to go today. At sound of the bell, you are going to have two minutes to pitch HR geckos. At the end of two minutes, we're going to hit you with about 20 minutes of Q and A. Be concise because if you start droning on, you're gonna hear the crickets. That's your signal to tighten it up and move out. At the end of Q and A, you will receive either big applause, gecko, no way. This is Godzilla. That's right, Jay. You're gonna make this happen. Golf clap. Well, we like it, but there's something you need to feed this gecko. It's got some legs, but you're gonna have to feed this gecko. And last but never least, the firing squad. Squish. That's the sound you're gonna hear because you're gonna have to ditch this business model. That gecko's gonna get squished. Try, try, try something else. Joel Cheesman (04:02.619) Yikes. Chad (04:12.927) That's Firing Squad, are you ready, Jay? Jay (04:17.006) Yes, I am. Joel Cheesman (04:19.259) All right, Jay, pitch this thing in three, two. Chad (04:19.263) Let's do it. Jay (04:24.302) Meet HR geckos. We make HR as agile as a gecko. We are a co -pilot for HR operations. And we automate key HR processes, connect all HR systems, and our AI -powered help desk is the only help desk built for HR by HR. The significant advantage we are bringing to HR teams is that we help them provide HR services instantly. And the big advantage for businesses is that they can comply with ever -changing laws and avoid the costs that come with manual processes and outdated technology. Our purpose is to replace fragmented systems with a unified, digital, one -stop shop that connects employees to what they need, when they need it, and where they need it. That's us, HR geckos with the Godzilla inside. So we are ready. Joel Cheesman (05:16.027) Okay. That's, that was quick for a product with a lot of stuff going on. All right. All right, Jay, let's, let's get to the name. This is what we, we cover first, HR gecko. Why the gecko? have you got a cease and desist from Geico? you're also using what looks like a Godzilla icon. Have the Godzilla folks contacted you, to change, to change things. And you have, you're very adamant about the trademark usage. So do you really have a trademark? Chad (05:21.951) I love it, I love it. Chad (05:36.063) I love it. Joel Cheesman (05:45.371) around HR geckos. Jay (05:48.398) So great question. Our origin story is we started as HR Godzilla. We didn't meet the lawyers from Godzilla, but we decided to be the smaller reptile, the gecko, because what we intend to do is transform HR. And so true to our name, HR Geckos is built to transform HR and HR processes and bring us into the 21st century. The logo is self -explanatory. Chad (06:12.703) Mm -hmm. Jay (06:18.094) We are the gecko with the Godzilla inside and no one's contacted us. I don't think we'll be ever sued. We have a trademark applied for it and it's ongoing. So yeah. Joel Cheesman (06:28.123) Well, if you, if you do well on this show, you might need one because the, the phones are going to be ringing off the hook with, with new sales. You, you, you have a robust history in HR, from your LinkedIn profile. What was the, what was the catalyst for an HR lady to start a company? Chad (06:34.047) and truly be Godzilla. Jay (06:50.062) Well, first off, I think when I turned 40, I realized that HR needs to leverage technology more. And being in organizations where I had to really go through the bureaucracy to get anything done, get any new technology implemented, I found that being on the outside, of organizations and helping to drive this transformation would work better for me. And so a couple of years before the pandemic, I picked up the gauntlet and said, here I go, HR Godzilla. And then when we went to market, we realized when we went to market to figure out the name, Godzilla has... a definite ominous ring to it. Of course, it's the king of monsters and our intention was to burn down these paper silos in HR. But we decided to be friendly and said, okay, so, you know, we are here to actually transform, not just burn down. And so Geckos was the ultimate choice. Joel Cheesman (07:53.115) Yikes. Jay (08:04.558) We had a family brainstorming event and my five -year -old nephew was one of the people who actually chose the name HR Godzilla. And then we convinced him that HR Geckos was a friendlier name as well. So, hey, he's the future of the workplace. He's 12 years old today and he loves HR Geckos. Joel Cheesman (08:21.627) What better way to name a company than to talk to the young people, Chad? So you got an undisclosed amount of money in 23. Are you prepared to tell us how much that was? And if so, great. But regardless, what have you done with the money? Are you looking to raise a real round of money, a seed round? Talk about the financial situation. Jay (08:45.326) Sure, we're fully bootstrapped. We've always been bootstrapped. The undisclosed amount of money is undisclosed to me as well. So I don't know what Crunchbase is reporting. So we were part of Mass Challenge, which is one of the global accelerators. And we were accepted into the program last year. Finalists at the PitchFest as well. And... Joel Cheesman (08:55.643) hahahaha Chad (08:57.055) HAHAHAHA Joel Cheesman (08:59.515) haha Jay (09:12.942) You know, as a company, we've grown being bootstrapped and we have a comfortable runway. Of course, you've got to start begging for money when you really don't need it, right? So we are, we have our begging bowl in hand and we are approaching investors, but we'll see how that goes. Joel Cheesman (09:22.619) Mm -hmm. Chad (09:29.375) Well, how big are you now? How many employees do you currently have? Jay (09:32.91) so we have a software development center in India and we have about five employees there. and we also have a digital marketing specialist and a business development specialist. the CTO and CEO are co -founders and my CTO is also my husband. His name is Sayan Adhata and he is a. Yeah. Yep. And he's, he's a tech genius par compare. he's just brilliant. So. Chad (09:53.759) Keep it in the family. That's good. Jay (10:01.87) I'm happy to have him on board at HR Geckos. Joel Cheesman (10:05.019) And he's dead sexy too. I'll just throw that in there. Chad (10:06.911) well, of course, of course. So... Jay (10:09.134) Yeah, Jules met him actually, right? Yeah. Chad (10:14.079) I don't want to go down that road. I'm sure there's a story there. Anyway, when did you start using the terminology copilot? Joel Cheesman (10:16.315) different podcasts. Jay (10:23.374) So we started using the terminology, I would say the beginning when we launched, when we launched in January of 2023. That's when we started using the terminology. Chad (10:36.383) Okay, so everybody's using it now. Do you think that it makes it better from an adoption standpoint or is there just way too much noise? Are you looking at, prospectively, getting out of kind of like co -pilot and going into something that maybe is more sexy, like a Godzilla pilot? I don't know. Jay (10:54.286) Good question. But you know, the word co -pilot is very prevalent among you and me, the ones who talk about this new technology and the ones who talk about HR technology a lot. But when I approach my industry segments in the small to medium business spaces, they are really not that aware of this technology. In fact, the term sometimes helps them better understand what we can do as an automation and a technology tool for HR. Chad (11:19.263) Mm. Jay (11:23.022) So I don't think there is too much noise there. I still think it's a good use of that buzzword when we go talk to people. Chad (11:30.975) okay. Okay. Also, another buzzword that's happening a lot lately is process efficiency, which I didn't hear in your pitch. Although the entire pitch to me sounded like this is just a big ball of process efficiency. So is that where you guys are really leaning hard to be a process efficiency excellence kind of technology or where are you going? Because that's what I got from the pitch. Jay (11:59.246) Absolutely. So definitely process efficiency because there is so much fragmentation in the HR tech stack in an organization. You know, employees, the two are, I'll say the three biggest problems we want to solve is that employees find it very hard to find what they want when they're looking for it in the moment that matters. And they don't know whom to contact about it. They don't have the necessary active directory kind of you know, process to figure out whom to contact for what within HR or within the business. And then, you know, they have no visibility into the status of their requests. The process is not transparent enough. The policies are not transparent enough. And the resolution is not transparent enough to the employee. So these are some of the top things we are trying to resolve with our product. Definitely the process efficiency is part of that, right? We are streamlining the HR operations with the tech. But at the end of it, we are trying to make sure that the focus remains on the human and not all of this process pushing where you're asking them to complete these different forms or different provide you with different pieces of information at the end of the day, making it look like this really cumbersome, frustrating moment for the employee, especially when they're calling you when they've had a new baby, or they're calling you in the midst of a crisis and they need resolution, or they just want to go on vacation and they just want to know how much vacation they have. Like in chat. Chad (13:25.567) Mm -hmm. Chad (13:43.295) Mm -hmm. Chad (13:49.663) Yeah. Yeah. Jay (13:51.182) Not everyone's going to Europe like you, but you know, I want to go to the beach, but I want to know how much vacation I have. And I can't get a handle of it unless someone, you know, looks up a different system and tells me, or I wait for someone to email me back. So those are some of the frustrations that we are looking into and solving. Chad (14:04.511) Okay. Chad (14:09.215) So just to be able to provide an understanding and scope of the actual technology and who it's going to serve, where do you start? Do you start after the hire and then going through onboarding and through the talent management whole process methodology or is it before that? Just help me with scope role. Jay (14:27.758) Absolutely. We start right when an applicant has offered the job and is in the process of considering and accepting it. So we start with that onboarding and that's where the automation part of our platform comes in as well, where we help digitize that part of the process as well. Yeah. Chad (14:32.511) Gotcha. Joel Cheesman (14:44.891) All right, Jay, let's talk about the Godzilla in the room. I want to get a sense from you of the competitive landscape. From where I sit, there are some well -funded, well -resourced competitors, Rippling, Bamboo, High Bob, Factorial, just to name a few. Where do you guys fit in? How do you cut through the clutter? How do you differentiate? Jay (15:10.99) Absolutely. So that's a great question. In fact, one of my board of advisors just sent me an email asking me one of those questions as well. So when you look at, you mentioned Rippling. Rippling is built primarily for payroll. And on top of that, they've added on some additional functionalities to help out. And they cater to companies apparently who even have two employees. because that's apparently where payroll comes into play. Our company is differentiated by the fact that we are using our chat pod not just to provide employee self -service, but also to help the HR team with their side of the operations. So we are tapping into knowledge center resources and knowledge bases that would help HR teams be more efficient and more... you know, productive as well. That's one of our key differentiators. No one's doing that. The chat bot's only used for employee self -service. The second thing that we are doing very well is not just building a workflow, but actually connecting everyone who needs to be a part of that workflow in one single system. We are taking away that disjointed, fragmented HR tech stack and acting as a hub for the employee, for the HR, for the business, so that they can connect easily and seamlessly with all of their technology through a single sign -on gateway, through us acting as a hub. And the third differentiator is our custom integrations. We integrate with and we build integrations with anything that has an open API or not based on the different technologies that are already in -house. We will make sure that We are connecting all of them and making it a seamless experience for the... Joel Cheesman (17:12.795) How about on pricing? Do you guys differentiate quite a bit on the pricing side as well? It feels like a product for a smaller company. Am I wrong about that? Who's your customer? What do they look like typically? Jay (17:25.678) So we are here to serve the small to medium business segment. So anywhere from 50 ,000 to 5 ,000 employee companies, that's where we sit. And the pricing, we have a freemium model for smaller companies that are less than 25 employees. In fact, we're extending that to even 50 employees or less at this point in time this year. so that we can help you with getting set up with your HR people function, because we have all of the other, you know, bells and whistles that you need as a company that's starting up org charts, job descriptions, digitizing your employee handbook, having your employee profiles in one place with all of the contact information so you can actually build the chart and look at how your organization is scaling and growing. These are things that... People say, some of the companies say they are able to provide, but they provide it in a very piecemeal fashion. Whereas we do the whole gamut of all of this that I've just mentioned. We also have survey, we have a survey tool and we have push notifications and announcements and integrations with Slack and Teams. So we do a lot of things that organizations say they do, but they really don't do it to the full extent of the process or the technology. But we are doing it to the full 100 % extent. Chad (18:51.007) Excellent. So as we talk about SMB, SMB is a very, very, very hard market to penetrate, which you've probably heard us say on this podcast a million times. It can be done. Don't get me wrong. What is your go -to -market strategy on being able to penetrate the SMB market? Jay (19:08.494) Education. First off, small to medium businesses are not aware that there are tools for the HR function. Tools in general. I mean, they don't pay attention to the service nows, the replings, they do because there is some payroll involved, but the service nows which are built for service delivery, they don't pay attention to those bigger tools because they've never needed to use them. Chad (19:17.087) Mm -hmm. Jay (19:31.63) So the education component is key in this market about educating. In fact, I was just speaking to a CHRO of a 200 people company who never thought about using AI the way HR Geckos is using it, where they have multiple channels on Slack and Teams, and they have employees in different countries at this point in time because of the way everyone's shifted to remote and can employ anyone anywhere today. And they're finding it hard to corral all of that into one place and train a chatbot. I mean, the Slackbot is not going to be able to help them because they have messages coming in through email and Teams and even voicemail and walk -ins. So our platform actually corrals all of that information. The chatbot is very, very private to the company. We are not Gen .ai, we are not ChatGPT. And I'll say that again and again, we are not ChatGPT. We are built for the company. The chatbot is very private, is trained only on your data and does not share your data outside of your organization and does not bring in outside data to be, you know, compared to your data at all. So it's a very custom built NLP machine learning bot, and it will serve the purpose of augmenting the work of say an office manager or an HR manager or an HR team of one. with 150, 200 employees who really needs that help and is resource strapped and is short on time and life is passing us by as we speak on an HR team of one. So that's the efficiency and the augmentation we are bringing with the technology and the education piece is key to this. And that's why the go -to market, the content is key. And strategically going and speaking to where these small to medium businesses are is also very key. And they're not going to attend HR technology conference. They're not going to attend these larger conferences. So we have to go where they are in the local areas, in the local networking business networking groups. And believe it or not, with all of... Yes. Chad (21:44.063) Are you partnering with companies on that? Are you partnering with companies to be able to get that kind of penetration? Talk about that because that to me is the good of market strategy. Jay (21:49.358) Yes. Yes, so we've partnered with a couple of companies already in the background screening and people analytics space. And we have a couple of HR consulting partners and a couple more who are coming on board shortly. And we are also trying to partner with the bigger companies who serve the SMB market. So we are trying to get on their marketplace as well. We have a few deals in the pipeline with these companies and hopefully we'll be on their marketplace soon so we can reach that SMB segment. Partnerships are very, very key today because how do you reach a small business owner who has 300 employees and is so busy? running the business is not even thinking about the HR piece, right? So that's one of the biggest ways also to approach this market and get into the market. Chad (22:47.455) Yeah, what about the other Godzillas in the market? Because we just talked about Chet, GPT. I mean, you've got Gemini that's out there. You've got all these different large language models that are outspending. I mean, they're pretty much buying all the GPU power. I mean, they are monopolies in themselves already, but they're going to monopolize the GPU power. In a very slim market like you are looking at compared to what they're looking at in the entire universe of data, Do you need that kind of power? Number one. Number two, can another company jump in with an open AI or, you know, a Gemini or what have you, and pretty much take you guys out much faster and scale faster. Tell me about that, that, that competition piece. Jay (23:35.566) great question. Definitely spent a lot of time on that when we were launching in January and we were asked the same question. So here's the difference. ChatGPT and other Gen .ai tools are using data from God knows where. They themselves do not know where they're getting the data from, okay, because they can. Yeah. Yeah. Chad (23:54.719) Yeah. But they can, so think about it though. I understand what you're saying, but they can, let's say for instance, you can still use those AI models with smaller data lakes, correct? So a company can actually go and they can utilize that and hit a data lake like you're talking about with these SMB companies. So let's talk about that threat, because that's the threat that I care about. I don't care about the whole universe of data. I care about them actually Jay (24:10.222) Yes. Chad (24:27.455) able to efficiently use that model against your model. Jay (24:31.182) So you are seeing Chat GPT being used in customer service today, correct? Where it can answer a query and say, OK, here's the info. So we are going a step beyond that with our chatbot. Our chatbot is not just bringing in the information. It's also acting as a place where you can. Chad (24:36.319) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Chad (24:47.231) Mm -hmm. Jay (24:55.63) evolve your HR practices, your HR handbook, your FAQ library as the chatbot is interacting with your employee populations. I don't see ChatGPT or anyone doing that at this point and they're cost prohibitive for small to medium businesses. Have you seen how much their subscription costs? It's beyond what anyone can afford for a platform like that. Our cost, our cost, we are, Chad (25:20.767) huh. Jay (25:23.95) pegged for small to medium businesses. And so we are affordable, much more affordable than any of these Gen .ai tools. Besides, when we speak to small to medium businesses, they tell us why do we need a Gen .ai tool, first of all? They can use it as a personal assistant, maybe they can write a job description with it, or maybe they can write a job posting, clever job posting with all the fun buzzwords in it. But it's really not helpful to serve their employees because by the time they train that GPT, they would have spent thousands of dollars doing that. Whereas our bot hits the ground running with the data that is in their system already with their employee handbook, with their company policies. And its training curve, its learning curve is very short and it's very private to that company. It does not share data outside of that company. And it does not bring data from outside to share with people within the company. So there is a huge difference in the way a generative AI tool is used versus an AI machine learning NLP tool is used. And that's also a differentiator that we need to educate people about because obviously everyone's caught up in this cycle of, wow, AI. Joel Cheesman (26:42.203) All right, Jay, let's, let's move on. Let's move on. let's talk about, sales and marketing. You have a team of five. I don't know if any of those are salespeople. your marketing strategy from what I can tell is you have a podcast. now I've been on the podcast, so that's obviously sound, marketing, sound marketing decision on your part, but talk about the marketing. How are you educating? How are you getting the word out? What is the sales process? It's a big world. How are you? How are you getting in front of it? Jay (27:14.382) Great, yeah, so the podcast is actually a very big educational tool on leveraging technology and talking to HR practitioners, sharing their insights and seeing how we are able to use technologies like this today in the HR function. When it comes to reaching folks, I believe in a lot of networking. And so I've been doing that outreach myself, being an HR. tech influencer myself has been helpful. I was told as a startup, you can't afford an influencer. So try to be an influencer yourself. Then I first started in the business and believe it or not, that's very true because HR tech influencers, like you guys cost a fortune and I can afford you. So, Hey. Chad (28:02.303) What? Joel Cheesman (28:04.347) True. Jay (28:06.606) I'd love to jump off the stratosphere with you, but it's going to cost me so much money. I can't afford it. You know, I'd rather just be on the outside watching you guys like, I don't know, fall. Joel Cheesman (28:16.059) You're welcome to watch. There'll be a huge crowd, I'm sure. Chad (28:18.751) Yeah, you're more than welcome to watch. Yeah, you can pop the champagne when we're done. I've got one last question for you. One last question. Yeah. Let's not, let's not go into that. Let's not go into that. Okay. So I have one last question, Jay. How much money do you want? That's follow up from early funding and the, and the, the Oliver wanting more gruel. How much money do you want? And when you get that money, what do you want to do with it? Joel Cheesman (28:23.547) You can change my diaper when I'm done. Did that go too far? That went too far, didn't it? Sorry. Jay (28:46.702) We are looking to raise a million and a half, and we are going to put that mostly into product development and marketing and sales. So we're thinking 30 % product and 70 % sales and marketing at this point in time. And our ask is very much geared towards smaller angels, investors, not big conglomerate private equity firms at this point in time. where they understand HR and they understand the future of work kind of technologies and those are the kind of investors we are looking to attract and work with in the near future. Joel Cheesman (29:28.091) Speaking of money, Chad, this product sounds a little pricey for me. Jay, you got a freemium model. It went from 25 to 50. I'm not sure that's a good sign, but talk to us about what it's gonna cost to use HR geckos. Jay (29:45.358) So at this point in time, we have a PEPM plan, which is a per employee per month plan. It's $13 .99 per employee per month to use our platform with all of the built -in customizations and all of the other tools that we have for HR teams and employees. We have slashed our prices. I'll. a number of times for our clients and we've also offered a flat rate on the annual contract instead of using the PEPA model. And that has worked for smaller teams who have some attrition, like smaller technology startups who have had a lot of attrition these past six months. So the annual contract is also very well priced and we are very flexible on the annual contract flat pricing as well. Joel Cheesman (30:35.835) All right. Well, that bell means one thing, Jay. It's time to face the firing squad. Are you ready? Well, even if you're not ready, we're doing it. Chad, Chad, have at it. Jay (30:44.494) Yes, I am! Chad (30:47.295) Too bad. Jay, all I got to say is burn it down. Burn it down, Godzilla style. So a partnership is where you went, okay? It's really the only practical way your business scales. The first thing, and as I talk to and advise startups on a daily damn basis, it's get to MVP as soon as you can. And then, especially when you're looking at trying to be SMB, right? you want to get into those bigger portfolios, right? The bamboo HRs, those types of things. The ones who need to evolve their platform. They need to evolve their technology, right? And they can't, it's better to buy than it is to try to have somebody develop it internally. We've seen that over and over because the velocity of technology right now is going so fast. Most of those companies don't have the assets to be able to. are the resources to be able to actually do that in -house, in most cases, right? And if they do, they're gonna do it half -assed. They just are, right? So that is where you win. So when you're talking about getting that funding, I would say, yes, tech is great, being able to do more with the product is great, but don't go too far. Focus on revenue, revenue, revenue. That's all that matters, right? Turn that revenue. Man, you turn 40 and the HR practitioner, and you realized it's not getting better, it's not getting faster, it's not enough. So you said, I'm gonna change it. You have the experience, your husband has the experience. I fucking love that. I fucking love that, right? And talent management is where the money is. Talent management, not talent acquisition, there's great stuff there to be able to start penetrating in the market, to be able to go down funnel, but you're already going down funnel. That's where the money is, right? So usually, Jay (32:18.542) Thank you. Chad (32:34.783) Hate the SMB market, which I said earlier, but there are tons of bigger platforms. And if you do focus, which I think you will, sticking to the co -pilot is smart. That was kind of like a trap question because to be quite frank, you want to be able to get into something that everybody understands. And if you have a company like, I don't know, Microsoft using co -pilot as a way to help adoption and understanding of what this tech is, use it. Use it, use it. Don't try to recreate the wheel, right? So I don't know if it's because I'm in Euro Chad mode, but to me, this is, I'm happy. This is great. I love this conversation. I love it. Big applause. And I believe acquisition is imminent. Acquisition is imminent. Good job, Jay. Joel Cheesman (33:20.731) way, if any, if anyone wants a loan, now's a good time to hit up Chad for some cash if you're, if you're a little low on it. All right. Yeah. If you can find them, if you can find them, he'll be, he'll be on the stratosphere next week, next Tuesday. so Jay, I was totally prepared to come into this saying that this wasn't even a knife in a gunfight. It was more like a spoon and a tank battle. and I still sort of believe that now what. Chad (33:24.639) If you can, if you can get me that's the thing. Joel Cheesman (33:48.187) What I, what I feel like your secret sauce is, is the tagline on your site, HR built, built by HR for HR. We don't get a lot of companies on firing squad that have a founder that's rooted as deeply as you are into HR. I think that's a huge benefit to this company. You're you being able to have real conversations with other HR people is should be magical for you going forward. five people, this is a skeleton crew. I'm amazed that you've been able to build all that you've been able to build. But you need, you need money. You need, you need, you got a tech guy that's probably like in the basement working 23 hours a day, right? You've got, you know, and what you need, you need, you need a chief revenue officer. You need a chief marketing officer that knows what the hell they're doing. You know, dump. Chad (34:43.615) fractional. Joel Cheesman (34:44.571) dump the stock photos on the website, like get a real professional. Cause that's kind of what lights the world. That's, that's like, you gotta have that stuff. Get some salespeople, you know, pounding the pavement and call it, you know, on the phone. I think there's a market for this. I just think you're on that ledge. And I think that 1 .5 million, which I think you'll get, there's a lot of seed money being thrown around right now. if you were looking for 50 million, I'd say maybe not. But you should be able to raise one to 2 million and seed with just what you've done so far. And I think once that happens, get some, get some people that can help you grow this thing. And then I think it's off to the races and I, and I didn't really think about it until Chad said it, but yeah, acquisition, is a real opportunity for you and at two to 3 million in funding, you should find a really nice payday, for those investors. So again, I love it. I just want to see the money. If you had the money. I'd be Euro Chad mode giving you a big applause as well, but because there's no money in the bank for me at this moment. Chad (35:49.055) golf clap, yeah? Joel Cheesman (35:50.139) We're going golf clap. We're going golf clap. So Jay, get to work, raise some money, build a team, and kick this thing into, into fourth, fifth gear. Chad (35:59.742) and thanks for coming on. Joel Cheesman (36:01.211) And thanks for coming on. I could tell by the smile on your face that you're feeling pretty good, which is great. I want you to let us know when you raise that money. For those listeners out there that want to want to know more about you, more about HR geckos, where do you send them? Jay (36:01.422) Wonderful, thank you so much. This has been a pleasure. Jay (36:17.902) I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, anywhere you are on a social media platform. I'm there, so I'm happy to connect mostly on LinkedIn though. And definitely look us up on the web or on LinkedIn. Our company pages are everywhere. Joel Cheesman (36:32.123) This is why you need a marketing person because the answer is check us out at HRgeckos .com. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out.

Strap in for another episode of HR's most irreverent show where we dive headfirst into the HR abyss. The Chad & Cheese sit down with John Baldino, a man who’s been around the HR block longer than our interns have been alive, and dissect everything that's hilariously wrong (and sometimes right) in the world of human resources. Fear Factor HR Edition: Why is HR so terrified of the C-suite? We'll explore the existential dread of asking for more budget and why HR prefers to live in the land of "No Money, Mo' Problems." Tech Wreck Tech Deck: Listen as we ridicule the shiny new HR technologies that promise the moon but deliver a piece of cheese. John breaks down why these tools often end up as expensive digital paperweights. The Boomerang Boomers: Why are retirees flooding back to the workforce? Is it for the love of the job or just because they can't afford Netflix on their pensions? We'll look at why the golden years are now being spent in cubicles rather than on cruises. Leadership or Lack Thereof: Get ready for John's rant on why today's HR leaders might just be masquerading as competent professionals. Spoiler alert: It involves a lot of snark and some uncomfortable truths about leadership (or the absence of it). Tune in for an episode that promises to be as enlightening as it is entertaining, with plenty of laughs, a few cringes, and maybe some existential questioning of your career choices. Don't forget to leave your sensibilities at the door—this ride isn’t for the faint of heart or the humorless in HR. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Podcast Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad Sowash and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody, we are live at Transform. Chad: It is bumping up in here. Joel: This is Bugsy Siegel's favorite podcast aka The Chad Sowash and Cheese podcast I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman joined as always, the David to my Copperfield, Chad Sowash is here and we welcome John Baldino to the show. John Baldino: What's up, guys? What's up? Joel: He's the president of Humareso. John Baldino: Nice, nice. Chad: Wait a minute. I thought he was tech support for Chad and Cheese. John Baldino: Just on battery duty. That's it. Joel: It doesn't pay very well. I think president of Humareso was a better gig for you. John Baldino: Look at you. I'm gonna have you do voiceover work now. [laughter] Joel: I was gonna make a Bald Dino joke, but I won't now because of this and that. John Baldino: Oh, you don't know anything about my Dino. Joel: Yeah. I got two bald guys ganging up on me. That's not nice. John Baldino: He wishes he did, though. He wishes he did. Joel: That's an Oreo I don't wanna be any part of. John, a lot of our listeners don't know you. Give them the quick Twitter bio and a little bit about the company before we get into it. John Baldino: And let's start with an insult. A lot don't know about me. That's really nice, right? Chad: Where we like to start things. We have set expectations. Joel: There are three billion people in the world, John, how many know you? John Baldino: I've only been doing this work for 30 plus years. I've been around a minute. Joel: That's a flex. I've been in this industry. [laughter] John Baldino: That's a total flex, total flex. Listen, we're here at Transform. I keep walking around and there's these 19-year-olds that are selling product. I'm like, what are you doing? Joel: There are no 19-year-olds. This is not the beverage and food industry. John Baldino: Oh, I'm sorry. First of all, don't knock beverage and food. It pays the bills. Joel: Oh, I don't knock beverage and food. I'm just saying that's where the 19-year-olds are. [laughter] John Baldino: Anyway, John Baldino. Like I said, been around a long time in HR. Currently, it's been 12 years actually for Humareso at this point, which is crazy to me. And we're just having a blast. Honestly, we're doing consulting work all over the country, international as well. Have great people working with me and for me at Humareso. Joel: What would a company come to you for? John Baldino: They're coming to us for everything from tactical to transformative work. So technology related, org design, but all the way to compliance, handbooks, administration. Joel: I think you're saying you're a good guy to interview. John Baldino: We are. Joel: That's what you're saying. Chad: That's what I'm hearing, that's what I'm hearing. John Baldino: Yeah yeah yeah. Lots of opinions That's why. Chad: Thank God. Thank God. Joel: So you are speaking at Transform, we're here in Vegas. John Baldino: Yeah, I have a panel. Yep. Joel: What's it about? What are you gonna rant about? John Baldino: So I've got a few people joining me tomorrow on really selecting HR technology when you have no budget. So it's a good talk. Joel: That'll be a lot of people. John Baldino: A lot of people. Joel: That'll be a big group. John Baldino: Really though, the focus will be a lot of HR departments, one. How do you get things done with a limited budget? Chad: Shouldn't that be prefaced with how to set your business case so that you can go get cash to actually buy technology? 'Cause a lot of these individuals, like you're saying, they don't have budget. That's total bullshit because none of these companies run without talent. Period. Right? Why are we not prefacing with, okay, here's your business case to go get cash from the C-suite? 'Cause if you don't, then guess what? Shit's gonna break. John Baldino: Yeah. So first reason we don't is 'cause of fear. Chad: Your fear or their fear? John Baldino: Their fear. Well, as a practitioner, I think we have a lot of folks who are afraid to have these conversations. Chad: Risk averse. John Baldino: Oh my gosh, yeah. Chad: Well, they should not be in leadership positions then. Joel: Well, their argument will be, well, I've touched that hot stove before. And when I sit with my director of finance or CFO, they just give me a hard time. And so I don't wanna do that anymore. Okay. Well, then you're just giving up your power. That's doesn't sound the right role for you then if you have to give up your power. 'Cause to your point, there is money, there is budget to spend on these things. Chad: Yes! John Baldino: And one of the things that's happening as you both know right now is that some of these teams have been cut a bit, right? There's been riff. A team of five is down to four, a team of four is down to three, whatever, but you still have to get that work done. And so you can offset some of that cost with the headcount that you saved, even if it's a fraction of it to say, we're gonna apply it to this in a different way. It's not, it shouldn't be a net zero. It shouldn't be like, we laid somebody off for 80 grand. Now we have 80 grand. No, no, no. That work for 80 grand still has to get done. You may have cut 80 grand, but we're gonna spend 30 of it on a piece of technology that'll help. And so you saved 50. That's what you should use. Chad: So I digress because we're talking about something entirely different today. We're going to have a different discussion about this. I'm telling you right now, because this is one of my biggest issues in our space, is we have HR leaders that are not fucking leaders in the first place, and that drives me nuts. John Baldino: Yes. That sounds harsh, but it's true. Chad: Sometimes the truth is harsh, right? But today we're gonna talk about something even more harsh, and that's the aged coming back. Joel: The return. John Baldino: The aged. [laughter] Joel: The empire strikes back. Chad: We have Methuselah coming back to take those jobs. Joel: The blue hairs are coming back to the workforce. Chad: Oh yes, yes. John Baldino: Absolutely! Joel: So say more. What are you gonna talk about in your presentation? John Baldino: The estimates kinda run the gamut right now. On the low end, 2023 saw at the low end, 2 million 65 plus returning to the workforce. High end, we're seeing numbers 7 million. Somewhere in that range. Chad: And those are the boomers. John Baldino: 65 plus returning to the workforce. A couple of things to that. One, some are part-time. So it's not full-time. It's in a capacity. Some way, shape or form, they've returned to the workforce. And we're having companies wrestle with that part-timeness because we've got some companies that are stuck. Chad: Yes. John Baldino: You can only work for us 40 hours a week. No, that's actually not true. Right? And so they're wrestling with, so I can get this person with X amount of years of experience who's looking to be useful for 15 hours a week. Can I make that work? Yes. More companies are starting to say yes. Joel: Are they returning because the retirement's not there? They're bored. There's just so much money because there's a labor shortage. Why are these folks that should be enjoying their twilight years back at work? John Baldino: It's a great question. Part of it is the 401k crap out for some people, right? They're just not able to bank on as much. Chad: Pensions went away and therefore we're in this situation. Yeah, I get it. John Baldino: Yeah. And the, look, we see what the prices are for things. Right? You go to the grocery store and you were budgeting X two years ago when you retired, and now you're like, okay, I can't afford 10 bucks, $10 eggs. Something's gotta give. Chad: Okay. So here's the problem, John. The boomers put us in this fucking situation in the first place. John Baldino: Exactly. Chad: And it's taken them so long to get out of the workforce as it is so that the Xers and millennials can actually get the leadership experience they need to run companies. John Baldino: Yeah. Chad: These guys are gonna fall off the face of the earth that, I mean, they're going to actually end up dying out of the workforce, right? John Baldino: Yeah. Chad: Then we're going to have organizations that are not prepared because they don't have the talent ready. John Baldino: Yeah. Chad: Because these assholes won't leave. John Baldino: Well, first of all, we're still at about 79 years old for the average death age. [laughter] John Baldino: So somebody who's 66 might have a couple of years left on average. Right? Chad: What kinda life is that though, right? Find a beach. John Baldino: I mean, listen, some of them are working from the beach. Joel: As we say this. 15 years from now, we'll be at this stupid podcast booth talking about [laughter] I'm still young. I can still do this shit. And we're gonna play back this episode. Chad: We're gonna bring some youth into this though. We're going to make sure that the millennials and Zs... Joel: We're gonna train the next leadership podcasters. Chad: That's exactly right. John Baldino: Well, and I think that, first of all, I think you're too kind, to be honest. I think you're too kind that they're in the way of these millennials becoming leaders. Chad: How are they not? Joel: He's too kind? John Baldino: Yeah. Yeah. That was too... Joel: Okay, so be meaner than him. John Baldino: So what I would say is, I mean, this is a whole other episode. I have millennials that are too afraid to own anything. They're so risk adversed that they don't want the positions of leadership, quite frankly. Listen, and not that I would necessarily wanna be political but I would wanna be, it is absolute tell that we have two Methuselahs who are likely to be running for president because we can't get people who want to be leaders in their 40s and 50s. They don't want that responsibility. They should. Chad: That's a big fucking responsibility though, John. John Baldino: It is a huge one. Chad: Being president. John Baldino: Absolutely. Chad: Right, you know? John Baldino: I tell this story all the time and... Joel: Hold on a second. Hold on a second. John Baldino: Yeah, yeah. Joel: Are you saying there aren't enough young people who want to be president? John Baldino: Yes. Joel: Because we had people under 70 in the primary. John Baldino: Yes. Joel: The better argument would be the people don't want younger people running things. John Baldino: I won't argue that to say that's completely wrong, but I don't know that it's a clear cut that's the reason. I would say though, look, when I was young, they used to say the flakes rise to the top. So when you look in any organization, the people who wind up in leadership positions are the ones that just sort of dumbed their way into it. [laughter] Joel: Right. 90% is just showing up. John Baldino: The other people were smart enough to get out of it and say, I'm not doing this. Chad: Yeah. Well and those people are actually the ones who got out are actually making more money because every time they switch they got a 20% raise. John Baldino: That's right. Chad: Right? John Baldino: Yep. Chad: And so the flakes, yeah, they stayed in, they were the go-to individual at the organization, but they didn't really wanna move up. John Baldino: Well, and I don't know that they know how to sell themselves as well. Joel: Yeah. John Baldino: Right? So this is connected to the older generation, 'cause when the older generation comes back and it's helpful, and I honestly, I don't know how the numbers are gonna shake out. My guess would be the largest percentage will be part-time, not full-time. And so I think that it's the wisdom in how do you use this older generation in coming back so that they're not in the way though, to your point. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: But they're mentoring and really helping people that are younger to say, this is how you have to... Chad: They're advisors. John Baldino: Yeah. Chad: They're advisors. John Baldino: This is how you have to work with the knowledge that you have as opposed to just going on your performance review and saying, I think I'm pretty good. Let me give myself all fives. What do you mean I'm meeting expectations? I'm now gonna boohoo and leave and see if I can be appreciated somewhere else. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: That's not leadership, that isn't teaching anyone how to be a leader when we allow that to happen at all. Chad: Okay. So I'm gonna generalize. I'm very good at that. John Baldino: Yep, yep, yep. Chad: The boomer generation is not a giving generation. It's a me, me, me rugged individualism fuck off if you can't do it yourself. Right? So they're not great mentors. John Baldino: So is this like a daddy issue thing for you? Chad: Yes. Yes, it definitely is. It definitely is. Not only that, having mentors or "leaders" above me for my entire career who were boomers, it's been a daddy issue from company to company to company. Right? John Baldino: Yeah. Chad: So, I mean, again, this is more generalizing. This is my story. I guess you can say I'm trying to get it all out here on the Oprah show. [laughter] Chad: But that's been my experience, man. It's been like, hey, go do it yourself. John Baldino: It's funny that you say that because what I would say statistically though is you do see more older generation softening. So you get to your 70s and you're like, I don't wanna lose my mind on things that I used to lose my mind on. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: My parents are a great example of that and I'm sure my mom will listen to this, which is gonna be awesome. [laughter] John Baldino: They were not kind people, my mom and dad. They loved me but they were not kind in that regard. Chad: No, that's not how you parented. John Baldino: And if you wronged them... That's right. And my mom still, like, if you wrong her, she's got the book from 1974. She's gone way back and is gonna tell you everything that went on, she's ready for it. My dad was tough. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: Very tough. But I will tell you, by the time the grandkids came along and his 60s, 70s hit, he was a different person than when he raised me. Right? He was a different person. And my kids had a hard time reconciling those stories of what once was with who they understood him to be now. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: So I liken that a bit to what's happening in the workforce. And I know it was, you know, a movie, but if you look at The Intern, if you remember De Niro being in that movie. [laughter] John Baldino: I guarantee you, when he was in his 30s, he was more the De Niro that we knew in that movie. But by the time he got to retirement... Chad: He was the De Niro in Heat. Yeah. John Baldino: Right. Then he got to Anne Hathaway and he's like, can I drive you somewhere? You know, like so much kinder, a lot more gentle, you know. Chad: He had a puppy. Yeah. [laughter] John Baldino: Sleeping with the massage therapist. Joel: So you also had the Irishman which computer generated him into a young man again. John Baldino: Yes. Joel: Kicking ass and taking names. John Baldino: Yes. Joel: So I want to get back to something you said earlier about maybe we don't need four, we'll have three, but automation and technology will fill in the gaps. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So I wanna go back to this executive discussion because there's a startup by the guys that started Jibe, sold to iCIMS called Fora that is sort of a executive co-pilot. John Baldino: Okay. Joel: So using large language models, what kind of decision would an executive make? So my question is, we're now bringing back the elderly part-time. John Baldino: Yep. Joel: Is there gonna be a world where we don't need them to come back because we have AI to treat us like we have executives on staff, we don't have to hire real people? Or is that fool's gold? John Baldino: No, I don't think it's fool's. Do I think it's 100%? No. I think, look, we're already seeing AI modeling working in different ways already within organizations. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. John Baldino: And so they're adopting it because in some ways they have to. And some of it is, look, I can have ChatGPT do a development model for me of a program in seven minutes, and I'm not buying three people overseas to do this anymore. Right? Joel: Yeah. John Baldino: That kind of stuff is already happening. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: So when you talk about that specific example though, I think that one of the things that's difficult for AI to get down in terms of what would their decision making be, there's still something about reading the room that I don't know that we've completely captured yet. Joel: Nuanced. John Baldino: Yes. Chad: Well, and also model, so you've got the Jack Welch model, and do we have a model based off of that? John Baldino: Right. Is that, and I don't know that you want that. Chad: That model today doesn't quite work. Right? John Baldino: Correct. Chad: So how does it actually, again, you talk about nuance. Nuance and how do you train these models? I mean, that's the hardest part of it all. John Baldino: I think culturally we have to look at this from how do we meet people where they are? But I can't develop AI modeling that's gonna meet people where they are and then keep them where they are. Some of this AI has to be able to take that person and move them forward. Chad: Yes. John Baldino: So they are gonna have to grow a set. They are gonna have to understand there's gonna be tough conversations. You're not gonna get everything you want. I love what Claude Silver yesterday shared from VaynerMedia in this session where it was supposed to be like, how do we reach out to Gen Z and make them make sure they know they're loved and cared for and clothed and fed and diapered and all that stuff. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Sounds familiar. Yeah. John Baldino: How do we do this? And it was like, well, we have to be leaders and not bosses. That's crap. Because we have to be bosses sometimes. And who's defining these words? Chad: Well, you have to do both. You have to do both. You have to lead and manage. John Baldino: Yes. Chad: Because managing something's entirely different than being a leader. John Baldino: 100%, yes. We're getting, I'm getting applause already from the background, [laughter] but it is like... Chad: I think that was for me. Thank you. John Baldino: Yeah. Okay. [laughter] Joel: He timed it perfectly. John Baldino: But the idea is like she was sharing, Claude again, that they allow people to do gigs, right? They have side gigs. We love for you to do that. Go ahead and be, have your creative outlet, but you can't do it for companies that would be competitive to your day job. And she talked about finding someone on her team who was doing work for a pharmaceutical company that wasn't one of their clients. And they had to go to this person and say, you are not allowed to do that, and your job is now in jeopardy. Now, is that a boss? Sure sounds like it to me. Joel: Yep. [laughter] John Baldino: Sure sounds like it to me. Is she wrong? No. We gotta teach people how to deal with this stuff. Chad: There are standard operating procedures. There's no question. There are guidelines. And again, you have to manage to those guidelines. John Baldino: Yep. Chad: But then you have to lead, as you're talking about before, to be able to allow to bring those people forward as opposed to just keeping them in a single level. John Baldino: And that's what, coming back to your question, Joel, that's what I think AI will struggle for a little while to do. And why some of the influence from the older generation coming back and saying, what do you see when you see this? How do you network? We, my gosh, even older folks in the business development end of things, I want them to come back. Joel: Yeah. John Baldino: Because I'm watching business development people right here, right now, standing at a booth terrified to talk to anybody walking by. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. John Baldino: What are you doing? Chad: That's never been... It's always been that way though, John. John Baldino: But we have to teach people how to do it. Nobody's doing it. Chad: I get it. But that is the company's job. John Baldino: Well, right. Chad: Right? And they still haven't fucking learned. John Baldino: I know, I know. Chad: It just, it drives me crazy. They sit behind the table. They don't come in front of the table. I mean, they're just the basics. Chad: Yes. John Baldino: Just the basics. John Baldino: But you know, you got Uncle Vinny coming to this, you bring him for 15 hours. You're like, uncle Vinny, show him how it's done. Yo, hey, yo, come here. Let me show you. Joel: Well, you know, we laugh about Jack Welch, but I guarantee you, if it hasn't been built yet, whatwouldjackdo.com. John Baldino: Yeah. Joel: Where you AI Jack's content through the years... Chad: That's a good idea. Joel: And say, what would Jack do? We're down 5%. Joel: You better look into this right away. Joel: And it will tell you what Jack would've done. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: In that way. Like, that will be a thing if it isn't already. Chad: And it would be fairly simple on every occasion it would get out the whip. Joel: Fire everyone. John Baldino: Fire everyone. Fire everyone. Chad: Yeah. And if that works for an organization, great. But I mean, again, different organizations, different cultures. Joel: So, you are in a really unique spot where you cover a lot of general issues with HR and recruiting and the whole process. Give us like a state of the industry. What are the pain points that people are talking about? What are they sort of wanting from the vendor space that they're not maybe getting? Just give us sort of an overview. John Baldino: Yeah. I think that you're watching organizations struggle with managing talent and they're depending upon software to do it. And they're starting to realize it. And I liken it a bit to, you know, you have kids, you send them to school and we wind up having this expectation of what teachers should be doing, what schools should be doing. And we pass it off and we don't parent maybe as effectively because we expect the school to do some of this stuff. I know there are schools that are doing a good job. That's not my point. And I think HR folks are starting to realize, well, we bought this software, how come my people aren't upskilled? [laughter] How are they not upskilled? I bought this thing years ago. Joel: Did you not get the magic wand that came with the subscription? Chad: That's a much deeper discussion, but yes, I totally get it, yes. Every single company, we talk about this on the podcast almost every week, they buy tech and they expect the easy button to be right there. John Baldino: That's right. Chad: And the tech to take care of everything for them. Not to mention, they buy tech that's like six years in place. Then they come back to it later and say, well, it sucks. Well, you haven't done anything to it. John Baldino: That's right. It's only as smart as the input. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: And I think that we are also seeing HR practitioners who are uncomfortable with tech, to be honest. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: And they're working with implementation teams on the software side, who, I'm not knocking them. They're lovely, whatever. But it never looks like the demo. And then they're pissed. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: And they're like, well this, I'm gonna change again. I'm gonna find another one. And it's like, no, the problem is nobody is owning this in your organization. Joel: Yeah. John Baldino: And someone has to own it. So we, you know, for, in terms of what we're seeing, we're doing a lot more of that, I would say over the last 18 months than we ever have before. We've always done it, but it's been asked for a lot more because it's a lot of lift to change or add systems. And it not to do what it is that it you bought it to do. Joel: Yep. Chad: Agreed. Agreed. John Baldino: We also have HR practitioners that are not being taught how to HR. Which is hard for me to say because I've been in it so long. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: We are not doing a great job of teaching people how to do HR. They know how to make sure the forms are filled in. They know how to make sure Jimmy knows it's a life event. You're 26 and get ready to be screwed for the rest of your life. Joel: All the automated stuff that's gonna go away. Chad: That's the admin. Yeah. The routine. John Baldino: I'm about to sit and have a nuanced conversation with a manager around how to have, you know, progressive talent management discussions. Chad: Yeah. John Baldino: They don't know how to do it. Joel: That is John Baldino everybody, president at Humareso. John, for our listeners that want to connect with you or learn more, where would you send them? John Baldino: You can go to humareso.com. Find me on LinkedIn, John Baldino HR. Either way. Joel: I love it. We are here live at Transform. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Podcast Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It is so weird. We out.

Live from Unleash in Vegas, the boys are covering the conference and all the wild 'n' wonderful things they've done with sponsors Outhire.ai, Jobpixel and Plum (while looking good in some Montreal Canadiens jerseys from HiringBranch), while also covering some of the hottest news from the week. What's that, you ask? How about Upwork crushing their quarterly earnings, a "Big Nude Boat" cruise and a roundup of all things Unleash, which included a keynote from Magic Johnson. Plus, new CEOs at VONQ and a new CTO at iCIMS. Enjoy. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Just two guys who love a rainy night. It's such a beautiful sight. Hey, kids, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Eddie Rabbit. Joel: I'm your co-host, Joel Gollum Cheeseman. [laughter] Chad: And I'm Chad, I was over served, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's episode, Chad and Cheese are unleashed Upwork crash, crushes. And who's ready for naked cruises? Chad: No. Joel: Let's do this. Eddie Rabbit, that's right. Chad: I love a rainy night. I love a rainy night. Ooh. Joel: One hit wonders from the early '80s are always fun. Chad: Yeah, dude, didn't he... I don't know. I can't remember, anyway. Joel: So much success for Eddie Rabbit. It's been a long week, hasn't it? [laughter] Chad: It has been a very, very long week. Especially for you, I mean, you were at the Kentucky Derby, that weekend was a full weekend. You were suited up, you were dudded up. Joel: I went over the top, didn't I? Yeah. Chad: Yeah. We both looked awesome. Joel: It was the 150th running of the derby. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's the oldest still running sports event in the United States. So we thought we should do it and do it right. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The first day is the Oaks, it's all the female horses. It's for females, I think breast cancer awareness. So everyone wears... Chad: Oh, sweet. Joel: Pink suits. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So I was in a pink suit. Chad: Yeah. Joel: With little horses on it. And then I rocked the powder blue... Chad: You looked good. Joel: Suit on the next day. Lots of cigars. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Lots of mint juleps. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: And then a small reprieve, and then come to Vegas. So no rest for the wicked. You on the other hand had a very restful stint in Santa Fe. Tell me about that. Chad: Lucky enough, Julie and I have never been to Santa Fe before, but we've heard amazing things. We have a friend that, our friends that actually live there, so we thought, well, the week before UNLEASH, we're on our way that way anyway. And Santa Fe, people, is fucking amazing. Joel: Yeah. Chad: The food there is amazing. I went to have some Big Nose Kate cocktails in downtown Santa Fe by the rail yard. Joel: Yep. Chad: We went to Bandelier. We did some hiking. And the indigenous people, I think... Joel: The natives? Chad: Yes. They had the pueblo, like the canyon there in Bandelier. And they had the old style ladders that you would climb up... Joel: Okay. Chad: To go up the mountain. And Julie was scared shitless. Joel: Yeah? Chad: And she went up all the way. Joel: So is this where the natives lived in, like caves within the mountain? Chad: Yep. Joel: Yeah. When I lived in Arizona, there was a tribe that did something similar. I don't know which one it was, but yeah. Chad: It was a blast. Joel: It was very cool how the way that it has remained after all these years... Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Is really incredible for sure. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: So yeah, two opposing weekends, but we're brought together here in Vegas. We got a lot to cover and a lot of people to visit here at the show. Let's get to shout outs. Chad: Okay. Joel: You got one that's pretty juicy. Chad: Yeah. I mean, right outta the gate, we found out this morning that our friend Al Smith, the iCIMS CTO is retiring, right. And this is, this to me, first and foremost, I mean, Al deserves some cocktails and a beach. Joel: Sure. Chad: The guy's been in the industry... Joel: A foot rub and a Perrier. Chad: Yeah, forever man. What an amazing dude. And if you've ever listened to episodes with Al Smith, you know he's incredibly smart and just damn personal. He automatically dumbs down the complexity, unlike most CTOs. So he's just kinda like that common dude who just has a big brain and we're gonna miss him. Joel: Yep. Chad: Although I reached out because we've shared some drinks before, I said, "Hey, look, now you're out from under the umbrella of iCIMS, let's do that again. And let's talk about tech and let's talk about inside and outside of the industry." Because he's such a smart dude. So hopefully we'll have some bourbon and a cigar and have a fun tech chat with Al Smith. Joel: Yeah. Al is a super fan. Chad: Love Al. Joel: If you'll, I think he may have worn a Chad and Cheese t-shirt on stage at an iCIMS event at some point. He will remain in an advisory role... Chad: Yeah. Joel: During the transition. But by all accounts, he will be retiring as we all hope to do at some point. Chad: Yes. But the new CTO is Joseph Benjamin. Joel: Yeah. Chad: He was a senior software engineer for IBM, listen, back in the mid 1990s. Joel: Yep. Chad: To the late 1990s, right. His first gig as a CTO was in 2001. Yeah kids, do the math, over 20 years ago with Net Identity and was group VP and CTO at Oracle from 2017-2021. And he just left Behavox, which is an enterprise platform that unifies all types of data into single data lakes, allowing users to query the data applying, listen, I bet you've never heard this before, machine learning and AI. Yeah, does that tell you anything? Joel: That's a new one. That's a new one on me. Yeah. Chad: Does that tell you anything? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, I mean, this to me, I think it was pretty awesome, Al incredibly smart, amazing dude. Joel: Yep. Chad: And it sounds like Joseph, hopefully he likes bourbon as well. So maybe all four of us can have a chat. Joel: There will be another iCIMS event. Chad: Oh, there will be. Joel: In the future. Chad: Oh, yes. Joel: Also have to mention Eric Connors is the new Chief Product Officer there... Chad: Good call. Good call. Joel: At iCIMS. He had previously worked at ICE Mortgage. Chad: Excuse me? Joel: ICE Mortgage. Chad: Excuse me? Joel: I know, right. But they're not the only company, Chad, this week that announced a new CEO. Chad: Yes, yes. Joel: Can I interest you in a shot of VONQ in your Vegas morning. Chad: I need a shot to make sure I don't get the VONQ. Joel: That's right. So Ritu Mohanka. Chad: Yes. Joel: Hopefully I said that correctly, she is the new CEO of Holland-based VONQ. The company says she's a seasoned HR tech veteran, with executive roles at IBM and LinkedIn. So, VONQ we had wondered who would replace or who would come in after Arno. Chad: Yep. Joel: We have our answer. Chad: We have our answer. The thing that I thought was interesting is that Ritu has amazing industry experience, right. She was at Brass Ring, it was acquired by IBM, then she was in leadership at IBM, LinkedIn. She actually spent a little time with our friends over at Syndio. Joel: Yep. Chad: So, I mean, really great experience and impressive career. There's one tell here, though. Joel: Tell me. Chad: Every single part of that journey was focused in EMEA. Joel: Yep. Chad: Not the United States. Joel: Yep. Chad: EMEA. So the big question is, and we've kept hearing from VONQ that they're still alive and kicking in the US, but this to me isn't proof of that. You can see that she's incredibly impressive and competent. But that is... Her expertise is EMEA, right? It's not the United States. So it's gonna be interesting to see what they do to move, if they do anything in the US or just continues to atrophy like it has. Joel: Yep. Chad: Over the past six months to a year. Joel: Yep. And I'll add that, having another female CEO... Chad: I love that. Joel: In the industry is a great thing. We spoke to Rebecca Carr at SmartRecruiters. So impressive women in our space is always a good thing. Chad: Yes. But real quick, I wanna shout out to SmartRecruiters. Take that interim off her and let her swing that bat. Right? She's the interim CEO right now. She has a great history with SmartRecruiters. She left, came back. Joel: Yep. Chad: I really, I want to see another female CEO. But we talked to her yesterday and I was blown away at just not how smart she was... Joel: Yep. Chad: But how much history that she came out with. She was talking about what... Joel: Branch out. Chad: Be known, branch out. You know, I'm like, holy shit. So anyway. Joel: She knows the space and loves it too. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Which is, which is great. Chad: Which is exactly what we need. And we've been talking about. Right? So make her the CEO goddamnit. Joel: So, you're saying that not as a SmartRecruiter's shareholder... Chad: No, no. Joel: Just as a spectator. Okay, let's just throw that out there. Chad: Just as a guy sitting back and watching this thing, look like it's on a crash course. Right? It needs leadership. And I mean, hell, I mean, somebody who loves the industry that much has been in product, I mean, pretty much in biz dev in some cases. I mean she, to me, she sounds like the perfect person. Plus she has ties to Jerome too. Joel: We don't know if she loves free booze and t-shirts, but she probably does, Chad. Tell us about that. Chad: T-shirts from ERIN app. We've got the new Guns N' Roses design, Chad and Cheese Guns N' Roses design, ERIN app on the back. They actually did this design just for the t-shirt. Joel: It's an original. Chad: Just for the t-shirt. Joel: It's an original. Your kids may wanna wear it. It's so original. Chad: Well, they will. Yeah. And it's so silky smooth. It's soft. Joel: Oh yes, it is. Chad: Beer by Aspen Tech Labs. That's right, kids. One winner a month will actually win craft beer delivered to their front door from Aspen Tech Labs and Chad and Cheese. Whiskey by Textkernel, Chad and Cheese, send Whiskey to one lucky listener a month. And if it's your birthday, you will get a chance to win, possibly rum, some high dollar rum from Plum. But you gotta go to chadcheese.com/free and register. Joel: And in case I didn't mention, Chad, we are recording Live from the Daxtra booth. Chad: We are. Joel: Here in Las Vegas. Chad: And if you're watching on YouTube, you can see. Joel: And speaking of Plum, we will pass on birthdays this week. Chad: Okay. Joel: Because we are recording live. We will catch up. Chad: Well, because they over served me last night and we can't do it anyway. Joel: Last week. So speaking of live episodes... Chad: Yes. Joel: We're gonna be live in a couple of weeks outta Scotland. Chad: Scotland. Joel: Tell us about that. Chad: So yeah, Scotland for truGlasgow and truEdinburgh. Do you know who is joining us in Scotland? Matt Alder. Joel: Yep. Chad: Daxtra. Joel: Love it. Chad: Yeah. We've got so many great companies. PayPal, Lloyds of London. Diageo, E&Y, AMS, Brooks Automation. The Scottish government. Yes, the government's gonna be there. They heard we were coming. Joel: Run, Steven. Run, Steven. Chad: They heard that we were coming, so they had to be there. But sponsors Daxtra, you see them here, Ashby Solutions, Driven, Gigged.ai, Willow and Poetry. Just go to Tru. That's truscotland.com. Register for both of them, either in Glasgow, Edinburgh, or do 'em both. Joel: Yeah. If you're in Scotland, please come on. See us. Chad: Oh come on, man. Joel: Come say hi. Chad: Come have a whiskey. Joel: Come a nice peaty dram of Scotch with Chad 'cause he loves it so much. But if you're not gonna be in Scotland, don't worry. We'll be publishing all the episodes from our thoughtful conversations with Scots. Chad: Yeah. Except for all of those that we're gonna have behind closed doors during the Tru events. Because what happens at Tru stays at Tru kids, also in Vegas. That's what I've heard. Anyway. Joel: But what doesn't stay... Chad: Yes. Joel: On the Chad and Cheese podcast does data goes out everywhere. Okay. Chad: Yes, it is. Joel: Actually not, it's only on YouTube, guys. We just recorded the monthly jobs report highlights, lowlights, predictions for next month with our friend Toby Dayton, CEO at LinkUp. Chad: Oh, man. Joel: If you haven't checked that out, go to youtube.com/atchadcheese. It's about 20 minutes. You'll be smarter, I promise. [music] Chad: Topics. It's topics, baby. Joel: All right. Layoffs. Chad: Layoffs. Joel: Good god, big G, Google has laid off 200 folks from key teams like Flutter, Dart, and Python before its IO developer conference, citing reorganization for efficiency. There it is again, Chad, the year of efficiency and aligning resources with priorities. The layoffs were part of "normal business with affected employees able to apply for other roles." Any concern here about Big G in the layoffs, Chad? Chad: Yeah, I mean, it's only 200. Google is a very, very large fucking company. So 200, not that big of a deal, but here's what I gotta say. A Google spokesperson confirmed the cuts and said, "The impacted workers will be able to apply for other open roles at the company." Right? So, thanks for working here. There's the door. Joel: Appreciate it. Chad: And feel free to apply for jobs just like every other schmuck out there. Joel: Yeah. Chad: That does not feel like a red carpet experience by any means. Right? But again, just 200. Joel: Yep. Chad: Then think about, they were talking about the efficiency side. So if Google is looking to drive efficiency and cut costs, you place an already employed Google worker inside the company, it's faster, it's cheaper than trying to find somebody from the outside. Unless this is a signal that we're getting ready to see more offshoring from Google. I'm not sure we will see. But they have leadership positions. Joel: Yep. Chad: Being off shored. Joel: Yep. Chad: Let's see what happens. Joel: It's interesting. You know, Google is really good at killing, euthanizing projects that aren't working. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We've seen it in our own space a few times. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They're really good about just killing stuff that doesn't work. So to me, that, what really stood out to me was teams from Flutter, Dart and Python were laid off. So for whatever reason, I don't know those companies very well, if at all, but I gotta think that Google said these projects aren't working. We need to reshuffle employees, lay off ones that don't work anymore. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And this was probably more of just business as usual at Google, focusing on the things that they need to do. Look, AI is an all hands on deck situation at Google. Chad: Oh, hell yeah. Joel: They've been a monopoly in six plus businesses for the last 10, 20 years. They are actually seeing some competition. Good for them for focusing. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Creating efficiencies as everyone is doing now, and giving them the best chance to compete against OpenAI and all the other AI platforms out there. Chad: It is kinda weird though, because remember when 20% time was very big. I mean, you got Gmail out of 20% time. Joel: Yeah. Chad: You got some pretty good products outta 20% time, and then they took that away, right? Joel: Yeah, they did. Chad: And that to me was literally the antithesis of what Google was. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Google was about creating new things. And the way to do that was to inspire your people to go do it. Right? And you know the kinds of tools and resources that you have in your 20% time to be able to do that. And they've literally taken away. So Google has gone from a company of innovation to a company that feels like just an old stodgy... Joel: Yeah. Chad: Shell of itself. Unfortunately. I mean, it's a money making machine. Don't get me fucking wrong, but if you want to be, I mean, one of the reasons why they got outleaped or out jumped or outpaced by OpenAI. Joel: Leapfrogged. Chad: Is because they did not innovate. They were afraid to actually put the shit out there and OpenAI could not, I mean, there was nothing for them to lose. So anyway. Joel: Yeah. Chad: I see kinda like the worm turning on them. Not that they're gonna die anytime soon because Google is gonna be around forever. Joel: Not at all. Not at all. Chad: But they used to be the innovation leader. Joel: Yeah. And you gotta think why, you know, the environment or the culture of taking risks will support these sort of creative ideas are now passé. Chad: It's part of the culture at the point. Joel: And it's just when companies get so big, they can't do that. It's also easier to start a company now. Chad: Yeah. Joel: 20 years ago, starting a company was pretty hard. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You had to have servers and build a website that cost you a hundred grand. [laughter] Chad: Server farm. Joel: Google can't just say now, we have resources for you that you can't get anywhere else. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's a lot easier for people to start companies, which is overall good for the ecosystem, but harder for Google to remain competitive on an innovation basis. And speaking of innovation, Chad, let's get to UNLEASH. We are here at the UNLEASH Conference live from the Daxtra booth. Chad: Good time. Joel: What are some takeaways? What are some highlights from you so far? What are you seeing? Chad: I have to say that the, first and foremost, we've gotta talk about the elephant in the room, and that was the 830 foot fucking fall/jump that we took. I gotta say they, we had, I think 11 people jump. Everybody did it. Joel: Yep. Chad: Some, there were different levels of anxiety and fear from one to the next. Right? Right? And you expect that. But I gotta say, man, guys like Serge, that dude was scared and he got up there and he fucking nailed it. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: I mean, so to me it was great to see guys like that. I mean, even Matt, it's funny, the CEO of Outhire. The three of us go up, right, and the guy in the elevator asked, he's like, "Who wants to go first?" I'm like, "Nah, I'll go first." Matt's like, "No, I'm going first." Right? He's like, "I'm gonna get this shit over with." Joel: Over with. Yeah. Chad: And then at the end, dude, there was so much adrenaline you could see in him. I mean, it was a blast. It was just, it was a bonding event, you know? It was really cool. Joel: Yeah. We all went through something that no one else has gone through. We'll have that bond forever. Chad: Together. Joel: Forever. Yeah. Chad: Had some Fosters after it. Joel: I quote Tom Petty, the waiting is the hardest part. Chad: Yes. Joel: The anticipation, going up the elevator, the people that are there looking at you going to jumps. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Looking at you like you're a nut ball. If you haven't seen the video, the highlights. Chad: Oh, check it out. Joel: Go out to all of our socials... Chad: YouTube. Joel: YouTube channel, like all the highlights are there. I have a new pair of Meta glasses. So I actually recorded... Chad: Those were awesome. Joel: The jump from my point of view. Chad: Those were awesome. Joel: Which is very cool. So it's a great highlight video. I would do it again, dare say, if another Outhire or sponsor. Chad: Would Christine allow you to? [laughter] Joel: I think so. Chad: Okay, okay. Joel: I think getting through it once put her mind at ease. Chad: Good. Yeah. Joel: And I could probably do again, so we'll see. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We'll see. But I'm less fearful now of doing it, now that I've done it. Chad: Yeah. Well, and we both wore our brown pants. Joel: Yes, we did. Chad: Just like Deadpool tells you to. So that was smart. Joel: Double up on the depends for me. Chad: Yes. Yes. Joel: All good. Chad: So we also went to the Ice party. Omar's Ice Castle was cold as fuck. Joel: It was cold. Chad: We stayed two hours. He owes me a pinky toe. Joel: Were you wearing the Birkenstocks? Were your feet a little chilly? Yeah. Chad: I was not, but that was, that was, the entire thing was made of ice. And then last night, you know, Neon Nights, too many drinks and gummies last night. But thanks to Plum, I mean, that was a blast. And if you haven't seen the videos, go to YouTube or TikTok or LinkedIn or what have you. Joel: Yep. Chad: That was gorgeous, man. When it got dark out. Joel: Yep. It's a great event. If you're looking for a unique event in Vegas to do, that's one of them. Personally for me, the record playing tostadas as the appetizer was my favorite. Chad: That was awesome. Joel: If you don't know what a tostada is, it's like a hardened tortilla shell. Chad: Yep, yep. Joel: It doesn't fold like a taco. They put these things on a record player, had them spin around and they put the toppings on as it's spinning around. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So it looks really nice and pretty. Chad: Oh, it was cool. Joel: But that was really clever. Chad: It was very cool. Joel: As well as the... Chad: There was a DJ down there too. Joel: I don't know, was it an escalator or kind of... Like you have the sushi that goes around that you pick, they had chicken waffles and sort of unique food that was going around. Yeah. Big ups to the Plum team. JobPixel was great. The the ice cups... Chad: That, yeah. Because I didn't, I didn't have to ask for a big rock. Joel: Yeah. Chad: 'Cause it was in a big rock. Joel: It was in a big rock, for sure. Chad: It was fricking awesome. Joel: That was great. And great people as well helped support that party. Chad: Oh dude. Yeah. Joel: Which was great. Chad: Then we did the collab work, In-N-Out Burger after, which is, it seems to be almost like a staple now. Summer Delaney has made In-N-Out Burger like a staple of almost like Chad and Cheese parties. [laughter] Joel: And Chad, I'm here for it. I'm here for In-N-Out Burgers. Trust me. I will never miss an opportunity for free In-N-Out Burgers. Chad: So, let's talk about the show. Let's say the parties have been amazing. Let's talk about what's been your favorite part about the show? Joel: Favorite part is always the people. Chad: Yeah? Joel: Whether it's reconnecting with old friends, haven't seen in a while. And there's been a few people that I haven't seen in a while... Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Joel: At this conference, obviously meeting new friends. I always love the Startup Alley. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Kiosk area. Chad: I love they put it all back in one place. Joel: Yep. Chad: Because they broke it up before. Joel: Yep. Chad: When I wanna get in startup mode, I wanna be in one place and I want to hit them all up. Right? And it makes it so much easier. Joel: Yep. So there's been some interesting startups, some that we know pretty well that have all commented favorably for that. But overall, it's the people and... Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: You know I don't get to go to many sessions anymore. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We get stopped and talked to and which is the whole reason why we do this. Chad: It's awesome. Joel: But it's the people has been a standout for me, as well as a couple of takeaways for me. One is... Chad: Okay. Joel: It feels, it feels optimistic, but conservatively so. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Cautiously optimistic. Chad: Which means a lot for HR. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Right? Joel: But even the vendors, even the parties have been a little bit, I wouldn't say downgraded, but... Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: Barenaked Ladies aren't playing at the Palms, if you remember parties past. So overall, cautiously optimistic. Opinion? I do feel like, however, the startups a lot of energy over there. Chad: Yeah. Joel: A lot of excitement, a lot of interesting products that I'm sure we'll be talking about in the months and years to come. And my final takeaway, Employ... Chad: Yeah. Joel: AKA jobvite vi AKA Jazz HR, AKA Lever, whoever else. Krispy Kreme donuts at the booth is genius. It is genius. Chad: It is genius. It is genius. Joel: Now if they can just figure out a way to have the hot... Chad: The hot sign. Joel: Krispy Kreme with the sign. Chad: If they had the hot sign. Yeah. Joel: That's a winning marketing strategy, my friend. That is a winning marketing strategy. Chad: I don't even think you had lunch yesterday 'cause you're eating Krispy Kremes. [laughter] Joel: So good. So good. Chad: For listeners, Kennedy, my stepdaughter actually runs the investor and startup programs here for UNLEASH. And so I'm a little biased, but I love the startup competition was great yesterday. I think we, you and I both picked the winner fairly easily. Joel: Imagine that. Chad: Manifest won the startup competition, that's usemanifest.com. What they did, they're a cloud-based platform, which digitizes retirement transfers to maximize retirement outcomes, which is great. Joel: Yep. Chad: The thing is, if you've ever left a company and you want to move your shit, it takes for... It sucks. Joel: Yep. Chad: It's not fun. Right. And this digitizes it all, makes it easy. I thought that was really cool. Then, like I said, over in Startup Alley, here was one thing that it almost felt like I was doing office hours for about two hours the other day. Joel: Yep. Chad: Because I was going in and going through the pitches with them, and I'm like, no, that's wrong. No, that's wrong. And this, and the founders who were there listened intently. Joel: Sure. Chad: And took notes. Right? I'm like, this is just advice. Right? But I mean, it's still somewhat problematic that we have a lot of new startups coming in who don't understand what the real problems are and don't understand the real pain points for organizations. They're focused on what they think is the problem. And in most cases, it might be a problem, but it's not a big enough problem for a company to spend money. Joel: Yep. I think your quote to me in watching the winning presentation was, this is boring as fuck, but it's a really cool business idea, it'd be a really cool company. And I agreed with you. 401Ks aren't gonna get anyone out of bed. Chad: No. Joel: But it is a big issue for people... Chad: A lot of cash. Joel: To manage those, for sure. Chad, are you a little warm in what you're wearing? I know that the people... Chad: Oh yes. Joel: Watching on YouTube probably noticed something interesting. Chad: Okay. Joel: Chad and I are donning Montreal Canadiens jerseys. Chad: Yes. Joel: We mentioned last week in shout outs that our friends at Hiring Branch, based in Montreal, got us some jerseys. You're rocking the white. Chad: Yep. Joel: Chad on the back. I'm rocking the red with Cheese on the back. Chad: Very nice. Joel: We may have to go hold hands, walk down. Thanks to Hiring Branch. [laughter] Joel: These are some legit jerseys. These aren't the iron on, you know. Chad: No. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see these are like $400 jerseys. Yeah. No shit. And I'm not talking about $400 Canadian either. I'm talking about $400 US currency. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Chad: These are not, these are not bullshit, kids. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Hiring Branch is in a kiosk. They were gonna do a 20x20, but they said the Chad and Cheese jerseys cost so much, we gotta keep it at the kiosk level. If you're interested in their services, fuck interviews, I think is their motto. Chad: Yes. Fuck interviews. Joel: Go check out hiringbranch.com. Chad: I love it. Joel: I dunno if they have a dot ca or not. I haven't checked that out. Chad: I hope not. Joel: Anything else from UNLEASH that were takeaways? Chad: Yeah. No, I mean, one of the things again, that I love about UNLEASH is that the stages in the expo hall, there's a lot of content that's happening. Joel: Yep. Chad: So that draws the HR practitioner or the TA practitioners, HR practitioners back here, and that's what vendors want. Joel: Yep. Chad: They want interaction. They want at least some type of face time. So again, UNLEASH, if you're listening, continue to do this, do more of it. I think from an ecosystem standpoint, it feels more complete. Joel: Yep. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Vendors love it. Vendors love the engagement, the energy. I had said at Transform that I felt Transform was becoming a little bit more competitive to UNLEASH than an HR tech. And I, I think I agree with that now that I've been at UNLEASH. Chad: Yeah. Joel: There seems to be Transform, UNLEASH a lot of similarities. How do they break out from that? And HR Tech continues to be kind of its own dinosaur or whale or whatever you want to call them. Chad: It's, they're both big. So... Joel: Both big. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Both big. Both big. Alright. Chad: Thanks a lot, UNLEASH. Thanks a lot for having us. Joel: Let's take a quick break, get a coffee and we'll come back and talk about UpWork. Chad: Yes. S4: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: All right, Chad, a little news from our friends at UpWork... Chad: Yes. Joel: Who are actually here at the conference. Chad: Yeah, they're right there. Joel: It's pretty rare that... Chad: They're right there. Joel: Yep, they are right there. It's a nice neon sign. Did you get that from the same company as I did yours? Chad: No, I don't know. I have no clue. Joel: This is how we work. Chad: Looks good, though. I like it. Joel: LinkedIn's not here. A lot of the big companies, they don't take the time... Chad: Indeed's here. Indeed's here. Joel: And Indeed is here, yes. Yes. I think they have a 10x10 or something. Chad: Yeah, it's not big, but it's... Joel: Modest booth, but they are here. Chad: Atlas has a big, the EOR groups. Joel: Anyway, well, the quarterly reports are coming in from companies. Chad: Okay. Joel: I actually believe ZipRecruiter's is today after we record. So expect that to be a topic next week. Chad: Is that what the loud sucking sound was that I heard earlier this morning? [laughter] Joel: That was, yeah. In California outta Santa Monica. But UpWork had a very nice quarterly earnings report. The San Francisco based freelance platform surged by 18.7% to $190.9 million this quarter, driven by flat fee pricing adoption, gross margin improved with net income up by 7.4%. Active clients rose by 5% to 872,000. The company introduced UMA AI, boosting client spending by 7%. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Revenue guidance for Q2 is set between $190 and $195 million. Stock rose nearly 5% on the news. Killing it. Your thoughts on UpWork? Chad: This is product. This is all product driven. UpWork. Somebody came into UpWork, and we need to dig into this, somebody came into UpWork and they started to assess the products that they had available and they said, we can do better from a product standpoint. These aren't gaining the traction in the market that they should. So they started to move and to change things. And that's what we're seeing here. UpWork says it's AI and machine learning category, gross sales volume has grown 50% year over year, making it once again the company's fastest growing category. And revenue ads and monetization products jump by 93% year over year, right? So, and that makes it UpWork's biggest stream, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So to me, if you're a company and you're afraid to evolve and adapt, you're gonna die. I mean, we've seen it. These guys are adapting. This is proof that they're adapting, they're evolving. They see that this AI machine learning piece, even putting UMA in there to make it easier for recruiters, for job seekers. Everybody is just, they are trying to meet the market where it is, right? And I believe they're trying to skate to where the puck's going to be. We shall see. But these are great numbers and I'm glad to see that UpWork is really embracing change. Joel: Yeah. You know, you and I have talked about UpWork as a mega trend, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: People contracting. Why hire these folks? It's a lot cheaper. I have a global universe to choose from in candidates. I became a little bearish on UpWork when ChatGPT came out and when these AI tools came out. You don't need a copywriter if you can just plug something into ChatGPT. So I thought that would really affect the knowledge worker, which is what UpWork is. Chad: Yes. Joel: It's knowledge workers. Instead, AI is taking the business to a whole 'nother level. Increasing like 7% profits on spending by clients, is huge. I don't know how they're doing that, but that's pretty awesome. They're getting more companies use the service as opposed to less. Chad: Yeah. Sticky too. Joel: So I'm a little bit gobsmacked as the British might say, as to what is going on at UpWork. They turned this AI threat on its head and they're benefiting from it. Chad: Yeah. Joel: My guess is the best workers on the platform are becoming super developers and super marketers because those people have learned AI and how to get the most productivity. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They're probably flipping more jobs. Those people are more expensive than say a low-level Ukrainian 20-year-old just getting into the business. So it feels like the best workers at UpWork are getting more jobs, they're completing tasks quicker and thus charging more and getting more money into the system. So I'm super impressed. We always thought this was a mega trend. AI's taking it to a whole different place, and it's exciting to watch, for sure. Chad: It's interesting 'cause we were just at Paradox and Scottsdale a couple of weeks ago, and their focus was obviously the conversational ATS, the conversational AI, just all the way around. UpWork, they're leaning heavily into that with this new large language model, this UMA model, with conversational AI and matching, right? So I really believe, like you'd said, this could have really struck a death blow to UpWork, but they're like, no, we're gonna innovate with this, we're gonna move faster. And if we move faster and smarter, we can get more people into jobs faster. If we get more people into jobs faster, then companies are gonna fucking love us even more and more people are gonna come and more people are gonna continue to use. So product though, man, again, they're innovating and they're changing product. And I think that to me is the key to understand how you get to again, hypergrowth again, hopefully. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Turns out that... Oh, never mind. I lost my train of thought. Chad: Okay. Joel: Let's take a quick break. I need another cup of coffee obviously, and we'll talk about, good lord, naked cruises. S5: Emotional damage. Joel: What's up everybody? We are live from the Daxtra booth at the UNLEASH Conference in Las Vegas. Chad: Well, we're not talking about naked Ted Cruz, are we? Joel: Not Ted Cruz. Chad: Okay. Joel: No, actual boats. Yeah, the boats, the boats. Chad: Okay. You said, you'd said Naked cruise and I was like, holy shit, I don't want, I don't need that. Joel: All right. It's now dubbed the Big Nude Boat cruise departing from Florida, imagine that, starting next year. They offer passengers a clothing optional experience, including at the buffet. That's right, naked buffets as well. The 11-day trip on the Norwegian Pearl includes stops at private islands and Caribbean destinations. Prices range from 2000 for an inside cabin to over 33 grand for a top room. Guests are advised to use towels in common areas and pack a swimsuit for non-clothing optional excursions. Chad, this has Euro Chad written all over it, if you ask me. What are your thoughts? Chad: You would be wrong. I have already opted out of the fully clothed versions of cruises, especially since COVID turned ships into floating coffins. So imagining a bunch of nude sweaty fat dudes at a buffet... Joel: Why do you look at me and say fat dudes on that one? That's... I'm triggered. Chad: Was I looking at you? My bad. That was bad. Anyway, that even adds to the floating petri dish kind of idea. Fat and sweaty, not to mention, can you imagine, we talk about talent. Can you imagine... Joel: Recruiting for this? [chuckle] Chad: Trying to get somebody to... Yes. To try to get some young kids to come clean up after your sweaty ass was just... Joel: Recruiting for this has gotta be a trip. This is a reality show in the making. Recruiting for naked cruises. Chad: They don't show up. They just show up one day and you're like, I'm on what cruise? Which one? You're on the nude boat. Joel: Yeah. The buffet is interesting. They should sell it as a diet cruise because watching naked people at the buffet is gonna turn you off food for the entire week, for sure. Chad: Unless that's your kink. Joel: By the way Chad, I don't know if you know this, July 14th. July 14th is National Nude Day. So if you and Julie in the privacy of your own home wanna get nuts on July 14th, it's coming soon. Chad: Ready. Ready to do that. In our own home. But we will be, in July we'll be in Europe and they've got nude and topless beaches all over the place. So we might just actually, I will go topless, I promise. Joel: Chad, did you hear about the flasher who's thinking about retiring? Chad: Oh no. Joel: He decided to stick it out for one more year. Live from the Daxtra booth at UNLEASH Chad and Cheese. We out. Chad: We out. S6: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

This week, the boys discuss various topics including their upcoming trips, shoutouts to listeners, the NFL draft, AI girlfriends, and the shutdown of Hired.com. They also touch on LinkedIn's revenue growth despite a weaker hiring environment. LinkedIn has launched three in-app games to engage users and potentially monetize through a subscriptions model. The games aim to make the platform more sticky and increase user engagement. This move is part of LinkedIn's strategy to expand beyond recruiter seats and tap into the larger market of marketing and advertising spend. While the games may not have a significant impact on revenues, they are a step towards making LinkedIn a more captivating platform. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION - (AI-generated) Joel Cheesman (00:30.244) just two guys who are too legit to quit unless it's around an hour after lunchtime. Hey kids, you are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co -host, Joel Hush Money Cheeseman. Chad Sowash This is Chad Sowash? Well, I should say almost Euro Chad Sowash. So what? Joel Cheesman: On this episode, LinkedIn crushes, Elon crashes and light them if you got them. Yeah! Let's do this. Chad Sowash (01:08.22) Oh, I'm feeling it my friend. I am feeling it. Here is, if you're watching, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see my background, unless there's way too much light and it's like over saturating, but there are mountains behind me. I mean, it is fucking crazy. And guess where I'm going tomorrow. Guess, guess. Big Nose Kate Distillery is here in Santa Fe. So. Have Santa Fe. Joel Cheesman (01:26.852) Is it New Mexico somewhere? Okay. Chad Sowash: Actually hooked up with Mel, their CEO, and she's actually hooking us up. So we're gonna go over half a few drinks and check it out. So big nose Kate Western whiskey dist... That's right, that's right, baby. Joel Cheesman (01:44.516) There's the t -shirt everybody. If you're listening or watching got the t -shirt. Uh, good stuff. So I'm, uh, I could, I could maybe one up that I'm going to the Kentucky Derby, uh, this weekend, this weekend. So most no hat, I'm not going to show up my wife. Uh, she's got some head gear apparently, but I do have some fun suits. Uh, maybe I'll post some of those on LinkedIn, uh, for listeners. Definitely show up on Facebook. If you follow me there, I've got. Chad Sowash (01:54.524) Oh, well, hello. Do you have a hat? Do you have a hat? We're going to, uh, Friday is, uh, the Oaks, which is, I think the younger Phillies, the younger horses. So I have a pink suit with horses on it. And then for the Derby, I have a, like a powder blue polka dot kind of thing going on. So, uh, it's, it's good stuff. So I've, I've been at the Derby a lot of times I'm from the area, but it's always been the infield, which is basically just drunks and boobies everywhere. Uh, so this will be my first time. Uh huh. Oh, nice. Chad Sowash (02:29.436) Ha ha! Chad Sowash (02:33.308) Yeah. Uh. Chad Sowash (02:38.908) Yes. Yeah. Pretty much NASCAR for horse racing. Yes. Yes. Yes, we're classing it up this year. We spent a little, little cabbage and, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna do it right. So I'm excited for that. I can't get too messed up though. Cause we got Vegas in our future, which we will get to, uh, in, uh, in the, in the latter segment of this, but let's get to. Nice. Chad Sowash (02:54.492) Oh dude, yeah. Woo! Chad Sowash (03:00.732) Shout outs, baby. My first shout out, here it goes, goes to Deceibo. Have no clue who this fucking company is. But anyway, they are sending the following email out to people who are attending Unleash next week. Quote, Deceibo is heading over to Vegas for Unleash from May 7th to May 9th, and we're hosting an exclusive private breakfast with Josh Burson on May 8th. Here's the link to register. Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (03:28.124) If you're in to hear from the Taylor Swift of HR, yes, they call Josh Berson the Taylor Swift of HR. What the actual fuck? I mean, have they never heard of truth in advertising for God's sakes? What the hell? The only thing they have in common is maybe body weight. He's a slight man for sure, but wow, that's a stretch. The Taylor Swift, oh man, I got nothing. He's a little guy. Yeah, he's a little guy. Oh my God. Oh my God. Ridiculous. All right. Uh, I'm going to shout out to our friends at hiring branch straight out of Montreal, uh, in Canada. Uh, as you might remember, uh, in January, the wife and I went up, took a train to Montreal, went to a Canadian's hockey game, uh, much to say, there's Boudreaux's, uh, you know, angst and they had ordered us jerseys, but they're nice jerseys, custom names and everything. And they hadn't come in yet. Now the jerseys, this is socialism for you. Okay. Chad Sowash (04:20.092) Uh -huh. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (04:27.908) The jerseys are already three or four months or five months after I visited. So these, these are awesome. Yours is like white, uh, like official Jersey with Chad Sowash and minus cheese on the back. I got the red Jersey. Now I don't know how douche it is to have Chad Sowash, uh, on your Jersey. That's kind of funny, but, uh, you don't, you don't give a shit, but yes, hiring branch. Thank you. Uh, Canadian such nice kind, uh, people, and we appreciate it. So shout out to the folks at hiring branch. Whatever. Chad Sowash (04:40.476) Very nice. Very nice. Chad Sowash (04:45.468) Who cares? Who cares? I don't care. Chad Sowash (04:55.292) Love us. Love us some hiring branch. And no, I can't skate. I cannot ice skate, especially backwards. That's just not happening. My next shout out to my sport, the NFL and the NFL draft. So getting to see these young men start their professional journey they've dreamed about for, I mean, since they've been little kids is just so awesome. And I wanted to share a couple of the press conference interviews. So. Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (05:21.692) The first one is Xavier Leggett, who was drafted by the Carolina Panthers. Check this out. It is, it's hilarious. It's awesome. You might, you might, you might. It's okay. Here we go. Am I gonna cry? Am I gonna cry? Am I? Chad Sowash (05:50.556) I told him I'm gonna be ready. Okay. And then the second one, that one went viral on the socials and so did this one. This one's Kion Coleman who was drafted by the Buffalo Bills. Do this. Come on now. Come on technology, we can do this, we can do this. Here we go. Yeah. Chad Sowash (06:14.364) All right. Chad Sowash (06:39.516) Oh my god! Chad Sowash (06:45.308) Oh my God, dude, I freaking love it. I love it. These kids, again, I call them kids. I mean, they're young men, but I mean, you can just see how happy they are. I mean, they're just, it's amazing. I can't tell you how many of these draft videos I've watched on TikTok. I just can't tell you. So anyway, shout out to the NFL Draft and these kids starting the journey in their professional career. And this is talent, man. This is talent. Yep. Joel Cheesman (06:58.404) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (07:04.324) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (07:12.388) Yeah, for sure. And like, those moments will be fleeting with NIL money. So these are kids that like have no money, grew up in probably really tough circumstances. And now they've made it. With NIL money, a lot of these kids are going to be making money and then going into the NFL. So these sort of magical moments, I fear will be fleeting with a lot of people. I couldn't... Yeah. Yeah. Chad Sowash (07:30.748) Uh. Oh yeah. Chad Sowash (07:37.788) This will be the last time, the last time that you actually see them literally come bright -eyed, bushy -tailed to a press conference. From now on, they're going to be trained. I mean, they're going to go through training in the NFL to pretty much just go by the company line, right? So this is like the last time we actually get to see them as real human beings, you know, in a good way. Yes, I love it. Heartwarming, heartwarming. And they'll also probably get a girlfriend, a real girlfriend. My shout out goes to AI girlfriends, which have made quite a ruckus on the internets this week. Apparently Meta, Instagram, other social media sites are flooded now with AI girlfriend apps asking you to download and get a girlfriend. She's not a real person, but hey, for a lot of people that's okay. Now the problem is, Oh yeah. Jesus, no, no. Chad Sowash (08:22.62) I don't get it. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (08:27.876) the real women, the only fans, millionaires, they can't advertise on Facebook, Meta and Instagram because it's trafficking their laws around it. If it's not a real person, you can do it. So it's quite an uproar that the real, the real ladies out there can't get their time in the sun on, on your Facebook feed. So shout out to the AI girlfriends out there. us. Chad Sowash (08:36.572) Ah. Chad Sowash (08:50.588) Ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous. Shout out to Free Stuff Kids. T -shirts by Aaron App, beer by Aspen Tech Labs, whiskey, you get two bottles, from Text Kernel, and if it's ya birthday, it's a little rum with plum. Go to ChadCheese .com/free and register to win like these people registered to win. Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (09:14.82) That's right, I think I heard you say plum. So that leads me to click this sound bite. Yes. Joel Cheesman (09:22.852) That's right. Some of our lucky winners go to Desiree Goldie, our friend. Uh, we interviewed recently Amanda Hall, Amanda Hall, who, by the way, uh, sometimes you really make these folks day. Sometimes they really freak out and like, I can't believe you're texting me and that you're sending me stuff. So Amanda, uh, got beer from us and got a job offer the same day. So talk about, talk about a hurricane of good news, free beer from us. Oh! She was just on it. Chad Sowash (09:36.892) Oh yeah. Chad Sowash (09:41.66) Uh huh. Yes. Chad Sowash (09:51.868) That is awesome. And a new job. So Amanda, a shout out to you for sure on that. And then, and then our friend, Jonathan Godzilla or Zilla, however you want to say it, uh, is our, is our rum with plum winter because it was his birthday. And those other people that are celebrating another trip around the sun this week go to Annie Jarvis, Glen Hill, Garvich Sharma, Jerry Frank, Peter Shapira, Shana Berthold, Keegan Osipek, Stefan Jean. Congrats, congrats Amanda. Chad Sowash (10:01.564) Yeah? Yeah. Oh, birthday. Yeah. Chad Sowash (10:20.572) Last. Sarah Addison, Bennett Sung, JT O'Donnell, AKA the mouth of Portsmouth, Robert Rayner, Alfonso Zamora, Herb Drew, Come on Eileen Kowalski, Lou Adler, and one of our favorites, I think it's fair to say, Joe Shaker, celebrating a birthday. By the way, I think he's good on betting the over on the Bears. Oh Joey shaker that's awesome Joel Cheesman (10:50.116) this coming year. I think it's at eight and a half right now. The weapons they've added, I think that's an over for me. Just FYI. Lot of weapons that they added and a lot of work for a lot of rookies. So yeah, and not to mention a rookie in the most important position being quarterback who touches the ball on every offensive play. So good luck, man. It's gonna be interesting. Oh yeah. Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (11:12.676) I love his shade of nail polish, by the way. Caleb's got some good fashion sense on the nail polish. I love a guy who is not afraid to show who he is. That's for damn sure. Yes, which you'll be doing next week at Unleash. We're going to Unleash America in Vegas on the 7th. We will be jumping off the stratosphere with Matt Bauer. That's right, Matt Bauer, the CEO of outhire .ai. You might see it here, kids. It's an over. Totally secure in his manhood. Totally secure in his manhood. I won't be secure in my manhood, jumping off the strat, trust me. Chad Sowash (11:47.772) 850 foot drop and we're going to be joined by Josh Gample, Josh Ramsey, Serge Bougereau, Joel Lagoly, Jason Putnam, Michelle Meehan and Russ Weaver. Then later that night we're hopping over to the minus five bar for Omar's Ice Castle. That's on the seventh. That's right baby, for Jopixel and Great Pea. Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (12:08.964) Nice. Sold out. Chad Sowash (12:16.348) we're gonna be basking in the neon glow at the neon boneyard with our friends from Plum for neon nights. Now, come see us when we're at Unleash and who knows there are a few passes that Joel and I have, we might be able to get you into that one. It is already locked down, but Joel and I have a couple of free passes. So if you hit us right, you might get something. Then we're going. Nice. Joel Cheesman (12:38.34) Oh Chad Sowash (12:43.9) to Scotland for true Glasgow and true Edinburgh and. And guess who's joining us in Scotland, Joel. It's a long list of Scottish players. Oh yeah, they're all over the place. Plus Matt Alder. Yep, this is going to be a recruiting future in Ched and Cheese Joint, which is going to be a blast. May 21st at the Revolucion de Cuba in Glasgow. May 23rd, the Three Sisters Bar in Edinburgh. All of our favorite Scots, yes. Chad Sowash (13:16.86) We already have some great practitioners that are lined up to be track leaders from PayPal, Lloyds of London, the Augeo, E &Y, AMS, Brooks Automation, the Scottish Government is going to show up and several more. So register for one or even both events at truscotland .com. That's T -R -U, scotland .com. Thanks to all the sponsors. Gotta love these sponsors because they're making this happen. Daxstra, Ashby. Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (13:46.396) solutions driven, gigged .ai, willow and poetry. That's right, Chad and Cheese meets, Recruiting Future in Scotland at True Glasgow and True Edinburgh. Don't miss it, don't miss it. Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (13:59.524) Very cool, very cool. So you said the government's gonna be there? Are we sure Stephen McGrath doesn't have any warrants out for his arrest? Like is it safe for him to be around government officials? Oh. The yes, the government's going to be there. Scottish government's going to be there. I got nothing, dude. I don't know. I think he probably has some contacts within the government, so I think he'll be fine. Yeah, Adam probably has some get out of jail free cards for Steven as part of his part of his employment. By the way, talk about those that are lightweights, Taylor Swift style. I'm a little worried about Sarah's jumping out of the strat. Are we sure that he's heavy enough to make it to the bottom and he's not just gonna like fly around like a whirly bird from a from a tree anyway? He's gonna need it. Yeah. Chad Sowash (14:39.58) We'll let him go first. We'll let him go first First or last one of the two one of the first or last you're the first or last search You last If you ain't first, you're last, baby. Joel Cheesman (14:54.116) All right, Chad Sowash, we got some breaking news that happened about 10 minutes before we got on the air. Uh, so sources are telling us that hired .com effectively shut down this week, laid off the entire team and said they're rolling the product into LHH, which is a global business unit of the Deco group. Uh, in case you missed it, hired had raised $133 million before being acquired by veterinary, which was acquired by a Deco. What? Chad Sowash (15:20.284) Wow. Yes. in 2018 for a reported $100 million, uh, hired founded in 2012, uh, with a great deal of fanfare, uh, and it's height was worth $500 million. Again, hire .com shutting down a few other sites. It's pretty clear that, uh, it's over. Uh, if you're looking to poach some people, check out those hired profiles on LinkedIn, because there's some people that are probably looking for a job next week. cheese Chad Sowash (15:50.332) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this, this just again, over and over and over there, there should be an organization who understands the business of recruiting and that's staffing, but a Deco obviously didn't know what the fuck they're doing. AMS with hourly, right? And Ronstadt with Monster. Those are just three. Okay. I mean, these, these are companies who understand the business of recruiting, of staffing, right? But apparently they have no fucking clue what to do and or how to productize and sell. Chad Sowash (20:05.884) Weird, weird wild stuff, weird wild stuff. Joel Cheesman: All right. Let's go to LinkedIn. Shall we company that never gets any pub on, on the podcast. LinkedIn's revenue increased by 10 % despite a weaker hiring environment. Microsoft anticipates mid to high single digit revenue growth for LinkedIn in the next quarter, leveraging AI to enhance member experiences. What kind of experiences Chad Sowash, you might ask? Well, Okay, okay. Oh my god, Jesus. Chad Sowash (20:26.3) Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (20:31.516) What? What? What? Look out, Wirtle. LinkedIn has officially, we talked about it, but they've officially launched three in -app games, Pinpoint, Queens, and Cross Climb, to engage users and potentially monetize through a subscriptions model. You'll be able to play each game once per day, and after your daily session, you'll get access to all kinds of metrics, including your high score and daily streak, different leaderboards, and who in your networks has also played. Chad Sowash, is this a silver bullet that... Uh -huh. Chad Sowash (20:58.588) Uh -huh. LinkedIn has been waiting for. What are your thoughts on the revenues and the games at LinkedIn? Yeah. Yeah, I would have thought that their revenues would be, I mean, to see them get a 20 or a 10 % lift isn't bad because I mean, if you take a look at it, the jobs that are open and being creative or created are generally not in the LinkedIn population of users, right? So yeah, 10%, that's not a bad thing. The whole Wordle thing is interesting. And really we've talked about this over the last few weeks. with, uh, with LinkedIn is they're trying to become more sticky. They want you to come back every single day. And what does Wordle have? Those motherfuckers, they get people back at least once a day. Right? So that is active and, and, and captivated audiences. Um, they, they want your average person to come back every day, uh, that will elevate their audience numbers and allow them to really focus on what we talked about before. Um, moving from, I shouldn't say moving from, but expanding from recruiter seats. to the bigger total addressable market of marketing and advertising spend. They're looking at doing videos, they're looking at doing all these different things. What do you really need to make that work? They need users that are sticky, that are coming back every day, and guys like me and you who are on it every day, they know we're gonna be there, right? They need everybody else, right? We're the 20%. They need the 80 % who are not there every day, and they are hoping and gambling on something like this. Joel Cheesman (22:21.028) Yep. Yep. Joel Cheesman (22:30.788) Yeah. I mean, I hate to say it, but it's, it's pretty smart. Uh, they need people like my wife. Uh, they have a billion users. I think maybe 200 million are on the site on any kind of regular basis. If you're not in recruiting or sales and marketing, you're probably on LinkedIn once or twice a year, updating your profile, adding a credential. Uh, and then you're done. People love this word. They love posting it on Facebook and the socials about, Hey, it only took me three tries to get the word. It is. Chad Sowash (22:51.612) Mm -hmm. Oh, they do. It's easy. Yeah. Yeah. So if they create a nice little social share thing on this, like, yeah, people will do it. People love this game shit. I'm not into it, but I know a lot of people are. In terms of the money thing, like we talked about this before, the recipe for LinkedIn is working like a charm. It's get rid of the competition, put up the moat. And I know moat has been criticized. Moat's a thing. Moat is a thing. If you can't easily duplicate it, moat is a thing. You can't just build a bridge across a moat. So. Yep. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (23:28.356) Kill the competition, get rid of the fake profiles, which I think they're trying to do. And then you become a monopoly and then you can start raising prices. So until, until Elon's LinkedIn killer comes along and gives them some competition, they're going to continue to ratchet up the prices and you Mr. And Mrs. Recruiter are going to keep paying those prices because that's what you're going to do. And as long as you keep paying it, their revenues are going to go up. That's hard. Chad Sowash (23:42.428) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (23:55.428) And this is what we're seeing on, on that side of the house. Yeah. So I wonder if they're just gonna allow the tech, which I mean is like the networking tech, just to stay the dilapidated, you know, 20 year old tech, which is what it is today. The matching sucks, the usability, I mean, it's just way too complex. And for many people who don't use it on a daily basis, it's hard to fucking navigate to do just the basic things that you wanna do other than posting, right? So yeah, I wonder because there is much more. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (24:21.796) Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (24:26.556) marketing and advertising dollars that are out there. They can, again, HR is very slow to change. They do hear their recruiters whine, whether they use LinkedIn or not, don't take away my seats. Don't take away my seats. So they might feel like they really don't have to put the money and or time into the recruitment aspect of it. They're gonna focus on where the big money is. And, you know, I don't know, but all I gotta say is the tech sucks. Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (24:40.644) Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (24:56.604) If they can make the advertising and the marketing and advertising piece good for them, I mean, the recruiter seat side of the house might just have to, you know, work with bailing wire and duct tape for the rest of their lives. Yeah. I mean, it won't be the first time a monopoly has fallen down on innovation, uh, in the history of commerce. But I mean, look, we talked about this with indeed with their healthcare channel and their tech channel, right? Like if, if LinkedIn can just get 10 % more nurses to use LinkedIn because of these games, they can go to every healthcare facility in the country and say, Oh, Yes. Chad Sowash (25:22.556) Yeah. Yep. Yep. Chad Sowash (25:29.276) Uh -huh. Joel Cheesman (25:35.556) In terms of nurses, we have an engagement of X. We have this many monthly active users that are nurses. And you know what? Hospital systems are going to pull out the blank check and pay whatever LinkedIn says because they can show some of those numbers, which they cannot right now. And if they can show tech, uh, tech people coming onto the platform and other segments, then they just create new money channels, uh, to fill the coffers. But you're right. Uh, you're a monopoly and there are little ways to dial it up. And this, I think is one of the ways to dial it up. We'll have to see if it works. Chad Sowash (27:07.1) Whew, we got it. Listen to the sponsors, everybody, because there's no show without sponsors. Joel Cheesman (27:19.908) All right, Chad Sowash, you ready for a little Elon news? No. No. Where are you going to get it? Anyway. All right. Uh, some, some, uh, some, some headlines this week from Elon, uh, I'll read them and you can comment on what struck your struck your curiosity or not. Uh, so here we go. Number one, man furious after cyber truck breaks down repeatedly in first month. Number two, Elon teases XTV saying site will be the everything app. Number three, Elon chuckles at post comparing LinkedIn users with zombies. god i know i know i know Chad Sowash (27:33.788) Mm? Joel Cheesman (27:56.164) And the last one, Tesla's senior director of HR leaves making another executive departure, just another week and all things Elon, your thoughts. Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (28:06.46) Well, we just were talking about LinkedIn, so let's go back to it. So Musk is worrying about LinkedIn and he should be worrying about threads as data from Aptopia shows that threads is seeing more daily users in the US than Twitter. Now, that's one of the things. I mean, there's a lot of sleight of hand that happens with Musk. This also the XTV and let's be clear kids, if you type in x .com into your browser, it takes you to twitter .com. So this is Twitter TV. Hmm. Chad Sowash (28:36.156) Twitter is losing trust. He wants this everything app. If you want an everything app, you have to have trust and they're losing users. They're losing trust. And he's hoping that these smoke and mirrors actually help and bring people back to the platform, much like LinkedIn's games. And last but not, I mean, the whole HR thing, he doesn't, he thinks HR is extraneous anyway, I believe. I don't think he really gives two shits about HR. But the the Cybertruck issue he cares about that Less than four thousand cyber cyber trucks have been delivered Which is I thought I thought was a very low number And then watching them break down and get stuck is all the rage on social media I saw one in town here just the other day in Santa Fe and it's just ugly as fuck. It looks like a block of wood with aluminum panels attached. I mean, I know it's more than that, but that's what it looks like. I mean, the first time I saw it, I thought, wow, that is kind of space agey and whatnot. But when I finally saw one close up and I got a good look at it, it was like, man, this thing is ugly as fuck. I mean, it'd be like driving a block of wood. Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (29:51.524) And coming from a military guy who probably drove a Hummer at some point in his life, uh, you know, and the popularity of those, um, I'll take the other side of the Cybertruck. I saw it in Phoenix twice. I think it's bad -ass. Uh, my wife won't let me buy one or even think about it. So it's, it's what it is, what it is. They need, they need to gift a Cybertruck to every rapper and pro athlete in the country and watch this thing, like go nuts. So it's just going to take a few celebrities to be in this thing. That's going to make it pop. Oh yeah, yep, that's my first vehicle actually, was a Humvee. Yep. Joel Cheesman (30:21.54) Now they have to figure out the whole breakdown. I read a story where someone, if you, they say, don't take it through a car wash. Something about the lake. It's just weird. That's like, they say wash it yourself. Cause it. They're recalling them all because of acceleration, the accelerator sticking. I mean, it's like, what the fuck? Yeah. That's, that's a problem too. Yeah. Yeah. That that's, that makes car wash problems seem really, really, um, little in comparison. So cyber truck, I think it's bad -ass, uh, whatever we'll see Twitter, Twitter. A lot of people don't remember this in 2016 Twitter aired some Thursday night football games. They're not airing them anymore. Uh, shockingly people didn't understand. I got to, I got a smart TV download Twitter app. I watched from my computer. I just don't get it. Yes, God. Joel Cheesman (31:05.188) So I'm not sure how XTV it's almost just silly to say XTV. It better, it better have good porn if it's called XTV. That's all I'm, that's all I'm saying. Uh, so, so I think that's one of his frivolous bullshit comments, uh, like he made about autonomous vehicles over a decade ago, but it was going to happen, uh, really, really soon in terms of LinkedIn man, like put up or shut up. You're going to talk shit about LinkedIn and it's not cool. And it's people are zombies on like. Smokin' Smokin' Marriors. Chad Sowash (31:16.924) XXXTV. Chad Sowash (31:21.66) Mm. Joel Cheesman (31:35.108) Let's see something like, let's see you do some LinkedIn competitor shit. I don't know what it's like. You did jobs that hasn't really set the world on fire. Uh, let's see a profile thing. So like just, just put up or shut up, uh, in terms of LinkedIn. Now the, the one thing I did think was interesting is laying off, uh, HR executive. And the reason I think it's important is because people do watch what Elon does. And when he lays off 80 % of his tech team, Mm -hmm. The year, the year of efficiency kicks in and multiple tech companies start laying off a lot of tech people. If he is in Silicon Valley, wherever saying we laid off HR, we didn't miss a beat. You don't need HR. We have automation or whatever it is. People are going to listen whether you agree with it or not. And they're going to say, do we really need an HR department? And if Elon can say, you don't need an HR department. Yes. Guess what? A lot of companies are going to go say. Oh yeah, we don't need an HR department. And you're going to see, you're going to see this trend happen where HR executives are like, Oh shit, Elon put me out of a job because he's, he told the world that you don't need an HR department. So that's the one thing that I would watch in regards to our space. Uh, hopefully people will ignore it and just say, it's just an executive. Cause it's kind of mysterious. They don't know if she resigned, if she was fired, like it's, it's sort of veiled in mystery. What happened. Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (32:54.268) Right. Joel Cheesman (32:59.012) Uh, to this person, but I do think it's a trend to watch if he comes out and says, you don't need HR. That's probably bad for HR. Yeah, I don't think that matters at all because many of the companies look at HR and they do see it as a cost center, which I've said in many cases is bullshit. But when you start taking a look at compliance and that motherfucker who takes a shit ton of government funding, taxpayer dollars, I guarantee you he with SpaceX, he has a robust HR team, compliance team. Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (33:25.348) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (33:35.268) Yeah. auditing team, I guarantee you, because that company does not exist without taxpayer dollars, period. Doesn't exist. All right, let's get into unions. Hotel workers that are unionized in 18 US and Canadian cities will rally on May day for significant pay raises as negotiations begin with Marriott International, Hilton Worldwide Holdings, and Hyatt Hotels Incorporated. The talks will cover about 40 ,000 workers seeking to reverse pandemic era staffing cuts and secure higher wages. Chad Sowash, what's good for the auto workers? Yes. Chad Sowash (34:11.356) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (34:14.948) is probably good for the hotel folks too. What are your thoughts? Yep. Yeah. I mean, having a collective voice is really the only way to go for hospitality workers. And I'm sure those 40 ,000 hospitality workers heard Sean Fain, the president of the UAW, talking about out of control CEO and executive pay versus everyday American workers getting the scraps. Plus the UAW in Domler trucks last Friday struck a tentative deal, which includes a minimum pay raise of 25 % for union employees. So these workers, are seeing the power of collective bargaining. And I mean, if you take a look at the Marriott International CEO, Anthony, was it Copiano? That is one hell of an Italian name. I love that. His total compensation via salary .com says it's 18 million and that's 506 times the median employee pay. It's out of control. So when it comes down to once again, back, In 1978, CEO pay in the US has skyrocketed from 78 to today, 1200 % while worker increases a mere 15 % in the exact same time period. So this all affects, you know, from the trickle down, AKA supplied side economics era, the money went to the top and it never trickled down. And that's what's fueling all this dissension within the corporate ranks. So. Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (35:45.724) for all those people who are using and talking about the unions are corrupt, you know, whole line of propaganda and thinking, look at the fucking numbers because without union representation, these workers are getting fucked and getting paid poverty wages and also understaffed, right? So this is something that we need. We went way too far in one direction. Mm -hmm. Chad Sowash (36:09.852) Now we've got to try to rebalance. So if it does go all the way over in the other direction to try to get it to balance, I see that's the only way to do it. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (36:21.38) So the pandemic happens, no one travels and layoffs happen. The ones that are left, the company says, look, to make it, you're going to have to take some cuts. You're going to have to swallow some pain, but when it comes back, we'll be fine. Right. So just like the auto auto industry in 2008, but this is 10 years later. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll take the deal. We'll, we'll do the what's good for the business. We want you to survive and thrive. And I still want to have a job. So I'll, I'll take whatever concessions I need. Fast forward, you know, two, three, four years later, the company hasn't made good on returning salaries back to where they were. And by the way, uh, inflation is really high for, for folks that are, that are doing the jobs that actually really suck at hotels. By the way, guests are assholes. Like the fact that people deal with that, uh, should get, get pay anyway. Staff per occupied room is down 13 % since 2019, according to the union. So they're doing more work for less pay and something's got to give. And I think the auto workers are a blueprint for like, how do we get the corporations to actually pay us a fair wage and get us to where we should be after the pandemic? And I think just like the auto workers, they're going to get what they ask for. Fuck. Chad Sowash (37:26.588) Yeah. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (37:44.516) Um, I also think there's, there's evidence to say that, that, uh, although Airbnb is robust in terms of revenues, but I think, I think brand wise, like I'm off Airbnb. I don't know about you, but like I, it was fun for awhile, but I like to have a front desk. I liked, yeah, you love it. You love it. So, but I, I, I'm off it. I won't stay at an Airbnb. Oh, I love it. I love it. I love it. Yeah. Unless I absolutely have to, uh, now you stay longer at places than, than maybe I do, but I think there's a little bit of a reaction like Airbnb wasn't the killer, which was probably part of like, Hey, Airbnb is breathing down our neck. We need to make concessions in terms of salaries. I think, I think that fear is, is, was largely bloated and exaggerated from what the reality is. So yeah, I mean, so the cities we're talking about Boston, uh, cities in California, Baltimore, Toronto, these are big cities. And if, if they win. Mm -hmm. Uh, hopefully you see a movement just like we have with, with the auto workers in Tennessee and other places. Chad Sowash (38:45.404) Yeah, and it's interesting, we talk about concessions for salaries. It's everybody below the executive ranks, right? Why are the workers always getting fucked? That's the question. And again, as a Sean Fain comes out and says, hey, look, I know what's happening. This is what's happening. Everybody's looking at him going, yeah, that's exactly what's happening. That's why you need to join in unions. So I really see the UAW getting stronger. We've been talking about this and all these other unions are going to continue to gain momentum. because many of these individuals have to work more than one job because they are getting paid poverty wages. And that to me is just, that's just inhumane. Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (39:25.572) Inhumane, unlike our sponsorship advertisements, which are very people friendly. We'll be right back. Oh yeah. Very humane. Joel Cheesman (39:40.74) All right, Chad Sowash, the Biden administration plans to reclassify marijuana as a schedule three controlled substance, recognizing its medical benefits. This move follows recommendations from the department of justice and could lead to easier access for research and changes in the cannabis industry. Despite this reclassification, marijuana will remain illegal under federal law for recreational use, but a step in the right direction. I suspect your thoughts. Yeah. Chad Sowash (40:09.084) Yes. Yeah. My thoughts are a little reefer madness. I think I want to share, I want to share something with, with, with the, the listeners and yeah, especially those watching on YouTube. So here we go. Watch this. This is a reefer madness from a 1936. This was actually a movie kids. The kids. Chad Sowash (40:37.628) innocently. Chad Sowash (40:47.772) It's in hell. Chad Sowash (40:54.972) Vicious. Chad Sowash (41:09.084) Those women. Ugh! Joel Cheesman (41:19.3) Not sure how women being looser and hornier is a way to get people to not smoke it. Oh yeah. Chad Sowash (41:27.612) He's going over the edge. Joel Cheesman (41:37.22) hahahaha Suicide. Chad Sowash (41:57.404) God. Joel Cheesman (42:04.868) So, is he having a heart attack? That's... before it's too late, reefer madness kids. So that was the kind of bullshit propaganda in the 1930s, right? So I have never, and you tell me, I've had discussions with many of my friends around this. I've never seen somebody smoke weed or do weed and get aggressive, get violent, never, or suicidal. None of that, none of that happens. It's ridiculous. Uh -huh. Joel Cheesman (42:28.004) suicidal. Joel Cheesman (42:31.972) No, no. Look, every film back then had to pass through government filter. And you don't think the tobacco companies didn't have something to say about the making of that movie. Yeah, totally ridiculous. But look, I had no idea. Marijuana up until this legislation was the same category as fentanyl, heroin. Like no common sense person would say that fentanyl is on the same. Yes. Chad Sowash (42:57.244) oxycodone ke - cocaine Yeah. Allen same level. It's less cocaine is less apparently, uh, than the marijuana. So this to me is a logical thing. Let's be frank. It's smart to do, uh, an election season. Uh, if I'm Joe Biden, I want more younger people in these States that summer swing States. Uh, hello, Michigan. Um, that would probably be a favorable to this. Um, I haven't talked about, uh, my time at the sphere, uh, with fish. I don't. Oh yeah. Joel Cheesman (43:29.636) I don't know. Uh, look, there was some hot messes. There was some hot messes at the sphere, uh, for fish. So be responsible, be responsible kids. Uh, you can't overdo it, but you can't overdose and there's no hangover. So, so there's that, uh, by the way, whiskey sales down beer, like beer wine, like the kids are, the kids are doing gummies and edibles and not doing, uh, the whiskey stuff, which, which for me, frankly, Yes. You can't remember what. Uh huh. Oh, god, yeah. Chad Sowash (43:47.164) Yes. Chad Sowash (43:52.412) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (43:58.916) is great news. It means cheaper whiskey and more available whiskey. So as far as I'm concerned, we out. Yes. Chad Sowash (44:07.132) Amen. We out.

In this episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, co-hosts Chad and Joel are joined by Kristen Boyle, the vibrant VP of Marketing at HireRoad. Recorded live on day two of the Transform conference in Las Vegas, the episode dives deep into Kristen's recent career move, the new HireRoad brand and strategic direction, and her insights on the evolving HR technology landscape. Highlights: - Kristen introduces herself, sharing her six-week tenure at HireRoad and her rich history in HR tech with companies like Amazon and Indeed. - Formerly known as Ascendre, this Australian ATS has recently been rebranded as HireRoad, aiming to make a mark in the HR tech arena with new leadership and innovative products like People Insight by HireRoad. - Kristen discusses the challenges and strategies in rebranding and marketing in a competitive industry, emphasizing understanding diverse customer bases and leveraging partnerships. - The conversation turns to the role of AI and data analytics in HR, where Kristen elaborates on HireRoad's capabilities in people analytics and predictive analytics, and how these tools aid in succession planning and talent retention. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. We are live at Transform in Las Vegas day two. Day two and it feels like Day 10. Kristen Boyle: We survived. Chad: Rough. Joel: This is Frank Sinatra's favorite podcast, AKA, The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the blue man to my group, Chad Sowash... [overlapping conversation] Joel: Is in the house, as we welcome Kristen Boyle, VP of Marketing at HireRoad. Chad: HireRoad. Joel: Aren't we a bunch of bright-eyed and bushy-tailed individuals this morning? Kristen Boyle: Have we all had our coffee yet? Chad: Yes. Joel: No, I have not. Chad: I've had some, but I need more. Kristen Boyle: Caffeinated, motivated, ready to go. Thank you guys for having me. Joel: No worries, no worries. Kris, a lot of our listeners don't know who you are. Give us a Twitter bio about you and a little bit about the company. Kristen Boyle: Yeah. Quick personal brand here. So I have been at HireRoad for about six weeks. Pretty new. Previously I was at Panda Logic before that, at Amazon advertising at Indeed. So... Joel: Indeed The Death Star. Kristen Boyle: The Death Star. Joel: How long were you there? Kristen Boyle: He who shall not be named? I was there for five years. Joel: Okay. Kristen Boyle: I was in my foray into HR, tech got me hooked. Joel: That seems about like the ceiling for most people. Five years is about... Kristen Boyle: Yeah, I'd say so. Joel: The norm. Kristen Boyle: Saw a lot of things. It was... Joel: Got it. Got it. And you reside where? Kristen Boyle: I am in New Jersey. Joel: New Jersey. Okay. Chad: New Jersey. Okay. So, HireRoad. Never heard of it. What's going on here? Kristen Boyle: That's where, that's what I'm here to fix. Chad: Thank God, you're there. Kristen Boyle: I know. Joel: How does a company like that nab a talent like you? Kristen Boyle: Well, I appreciate that they have kind of revamped all of their leadership team. HireRoad has been around rebranded from Ascendre, which is an Australian ATS. Joel: A government, ATS apparently. Kristen Boyle: A Government ATS. Joel: How exciting is that? Not just an ATS, but an Australian ATS and a government ATS. [overlapping conversation] Kristen Boyle: Yeah. Right. Things I didn't, think I'd be learning about the Australian government and. Joel: Things you'll never hear again in your life. Kristen Boyle: Right. But so HireRoad has a bunch of other products, most notably a People Insight by HireRoad, which is People Analytics also comes from another acquisition, but they rebranded to HireRoad about two years ago, a new CEO and new leadership team started in the last six months. Really strong HR, tech, talent and expertise. So it's really a good time to be here. It's good marketing challenge to come in and try to clean up our brand identity a bit. And that's why I'm here today. Joel: Yeah there are a lot of marketing folks that listen to the show. Maybe starting in the industry. Their bosses said, you gotta listen to Chad and Cheese if you wanna know what's going on. Kristen Boyle: That's, You're not wrong. Joel: They're listening to you now. What kind of tips would you give a newbie in the industry to find success, particularly with a brand that's new and hopefully growing? Kristen Boyle: It's a really good question. I'll, let you know, when I think... Joel: Haven't quite cracked that nut yet. Kristen Boyle: No. I mean, I, it's been I think a good first few weeks of just ramping up. I think you get to know your audience. I'm talking to a lot of customers from all of our different products, trying to find the commonalities I was saying earlier, yeah. You've got your Australian government and then you've got your HR ops in the us right. It's a different audience. So trying to just understand who your audiences are and how to best connect with them. Joel: But to go from Indeed where everyone returns your call, everyone knows who you are. Kristen Boyle: True. Joel: To this has to be a challenge. How do you get over that? Kristen Boyle: That's a really good point. And I think that's where, I mean, HR Tech is all about partnerships and who you know, and I think that's, events like Transform are a great opportunity. We're trying to introduce a lot of partnerships, not just tech partnerships, but referrals, resellers, all of that is gonna go a long way for HireRoad, which they haven't really had that yet. Chad: Yeah. So Ascendre has been around since 1997. Kristen Boyle: That's right. Chad: So there's a lot of baggage, but you got a new game or a new name. So talk about that a little bit. I think that would be pretty exhilarating to be able to come in. You've got an organization that's been around for a while, so obviously they're successful, right? Kristen Boyle: That's right. Chad: And you're trying to change the face. What do... I mean? What was the reason for the rebrand? Help us out. Kristen Boyle: Yeah. I mean, so we are owned by a private equity firm, and there's of course challenges that come with that, with branding and kind of consistency across the different entities that we have. HireRoad, I think, in the time we're leaning into the recruitment to the ATS products that we have, there's the play on HR HireRoad, but all decisions made before I joined, I will say. But as Ascendre has a really solid brand awareness in Australia, and we're not selling to outside of Australia to Ascendre. So that brand, as far as I'm concerned, is pretty solid. And we're continuing to build up the Ascendre brand in Australia. Chad: Gotcha, okay. Kristen Boyle: But HireRoad, it's a clean slate, and we are figuring out who we wanna be as a brand. We're leaning into our people analytics product, which is incredibly impressive. That's a lot of white space there that we're excited about. But yeah, it's sort of handling these two brands, these two different sets of solutions to different audiences. And how to connect the dots. So I'm still figuring that all out. Chad: So one is focused on the public sector, the other one's gonna be focused on the private sector. That's... I mean, that's gonna be a huge difference in marketing and messaging. And do they understand that? Do they get that? Kristen Boyle: Yeah, I would say so. And again, we're still building out. Ascendre has had the blessing of not having... Not needing a ton of marketing to be successful over the last 20 years. The Australian government from, as I'm learning quickly, is a lot about referrals. And... Chad: It's a money machine too. Kristen Boyle: Yes, it is. And we're doing quite well in the referral space. We have a lot of happy customers, which leads to more new customers. So that doesn't mean that there's not opportunity for some good marketing. And Ascendre does sell to some out non-government audiences in Australia as well. So I think there's opportunity there and to introduce people analytics to those Australian customers. So, that's where there'll be more marketing in the coming months in Australia. But right now we're really leaning into our existing customers and keeping them happy. Chad: Smart. Joel: As a marketing person and an Australian aficionado, how do we bring Foster's beer back to what it was in the 80s in the US? Chad: Which, everybody on the podcast in Australia is like, nobody drinks Fosters. Joel: I had a Bloomin' Onion for breakfast, by the way. It's a great hangover cure. Okay, for real questions. Now, you talked about data. You said it's impressive. What's some new data points that has caught your eye that might appeal to our audience? Kristen Boyle: Yeah, so I think with people analytics, it's like everyone knows it's important. You've got your different HR tech systems. I've been in the talent acquisition side of things. You've got your ATS data. You know, some good insights, cost per hire, time to hire. It's amazing what you can do when you can connect the dots across all of your different tech systems. And succession planning, I think is one that's maybe in a post COVID reality, but cross industries, we are seeing so many of our customers interested in succession planning, talent retention, internal mobility, right? To kind of go against the great resignation that we have seen. Joel: How do we tie in analytics to succession plans? How does that work? Kristen Boyle: I think it's a combination, you're identifying who your top talent is through performance data, but it's not just... You don't just stop there, right? It's what are they doing? How are they engaged? Let's look at employee engagement data. Let's look at learning and development data to see if they're getting the training and the upskilling that they need. Let's look at our turnover trends and how that's trending with our HRIS data. By, gender, by our DEI audiences, by team. What trends, how can we proactively identify some issues with turnover and get ahead of it and to prevent and kind of foster succession planning. Chad: So we've talked about everything thus far, especially the data piece. One thing you haven't said AI. Kristen Boyle: I'm jaded. I've been at an AI company. As Chad knows, I was saying it's refreshing to have a conversation without AI, but of course it's ever present. Joel: Oh yeah. Kristen Boyle: We are... Again, I think our product is, we have a new chief product officer who just came in. Really exciting roadmap of AI to come. We already recently rolled out like unstructured data analysis. So looking at data like exit survey data, right? Just hundreds of interviews. And it's more than just sentiment analysis, which for exit interviews are gonna be predominantly negative. But it's how are we kind of distilling the key insights from all of that unstructured data through AI. And then of course, some of the more exciting parts when it comes to people analytics, like predictive analytics. And generating insights from all of the analytics that we have. So all of that is coming, but I think we still have some really great data transformation through just machine learning. I think it's kind of ever present in all technology. And we very much have that with people insight. Chad: Yeah. Well, I mean, with, you've been around since 1997. Large language models love data. The secret sauce of any AI platform is data. Kristen Boyle: That's right. Chad: I mean, you've got nothing but data. I mean, obviously you've got tech stacks and whatnot, but for me, that would be incredibly exciting. Now, I understand it's gonna be more Australian data. It's not, outside of that, but at least you can start setting up models. Is that something that's pretty exciting? Because, I mean, yes, AI's not forefront in the conversation yet, but it's gonna be. Kristen Boyle: It is. And I think, I mean it, that AI story's gonna look a little different across our ATS products versus people analytics. I think the focus is for AI and people analytics where yes, we can very much connect our current products to our people insight, but it's really about our customer's data. And so that's where we're working with our customers to get every single data set that they have that they can continue feeding us. So that to your point, we can continue with the machine learning and building and collecting those insights. And we have historical data through people insights. So we're sort of focused on that. I don't know if we're pulling in our, the Australian government data into that quite yet, but it is an opportunity. Joel: You, we talked about the promotion side, the succession side. I want to go to the dark side of that and talk about layoffs and getting rid of people. For lack of a better phrase. Obviously people use the data to see the under performers or the low performers. Are we at a point where laying people off through AI and not having those hard conversations. Chad: Here we go. Joel: Do you see that coming? 'cause I do. Chad: The Amazon model. Joel: Laying people off. Kristen Boyle: No comment. Joel: Laying people off is really hard. And during the pandemic, it was convenient to have Zoom calls where people were laid off or text messages. And it seems like that could be easily automated and that discomfort could go away. You're shaking your head like, no, but why not? Kristen Boyle: I choose to be more optimistic than that. I think AI can help. Chad: Thank you. Kristen Boyle: Right. You have to be. I think AI can certainly help facilitate getting to the layoffs, right? It's uncovering skills gaps, uncovering the performance trends helping kind of the rankings or whatever you might be using for your AI, to kind of identify the lower performers. I don't know if I see AI getting us to a point where press a button and a robot's delivering the message for you. Chad: Well, we saw how that worked at Amazon, right? The optics for it, number one. And then number two, from a brand standpoint, well, in that case, you've got customer brand, right? Consumer brand, and then you have the employer brand. And it killed both of those. Kristen Boyle: Right. And you've already gotta watch yourself with unhappy people that you're laying off. You wanna protect yourself as a company. I think the company should tread lightly there, I think to watch out from a legal perspective. Joel: Well, how about the female who put some hard questions to the HR folks about why am I getting fired? You know, 90 days into this... Chad: On TikTok. Joel: I've gotten all good reviews... Yes, on TikTok. Kristen Boyle: Exactly. Joel: So you risk that. Curious, so it seems like the data would be a very good way to start seeing cracks in the pavement for employees, so you don't get to the point of no return. Kristen Boyle: Exactly. Joel: Like you can start seeing things in the data and analyzing that with AI to say like, we need to target Chad because he's falling down and we need to save him before he falls down. Do you see that with your product and your customers? Kristen Boyle: Yeah, I think we are literally seeing with people analytics, it's like what some kind of trends, some issues that might go uncovered if you're looking at them in a silo, when you can actually connect the dots and, whether it's there's Chad or it's this particular audience in our company, again, if it's certain functions or certain managers or certain demographics are suffering and we're seeing trends there, let's get ahead of it. Let's put HR practices in place to stop gap, right? And not just kind of looking at data in a silo. You might not see that full picture. So we really are... We see a lot of our customers looking at the full picture. It's us saying, it's like the... It's like going to Mayo Clinic, getting the full body scan that you can't really see in an individual doctor's appointment, if you will. So. Chad: Well, and you've got L&D, right? You've, so you've got learning development. Not to mention, I would assume, that would be amazing for coaching. This is all focused in that area. So being able to connect those dots to ensure that first and foremost, you're focusing on making sure that person gets more productive and you can retain them. Hopefully they are more productive and you can retain them. Because Lord knows it is expensive as hell to be able to not off-board somebody, but then go find somebody else and then onboard. Kristen Boyle: Exactly. The cost is incredible. And I think, we have customers using our learning product, and it's one thing for HR to be like, yep, we rolled out our L&D check that box, we're good. But then we go back to them, all right, is it working? Well, I don't know, people are taking our courses sort of, right? So, all right, let's look at the bigger picture. Let's tie it back to some other performance data. So engagement data. So yeah, it's sort of looking at the bigger picture. But I think that's the beauty of the people analytics is just connecting the dots. Joel: The experience I've had with analytics and people who use them is you have kind of two sets of users. One is like, give me the 30,000 foot view, give me the big picture. And then you have the geeks that are like, give me the spreadsheet, give me... Give it all to me now. How do you balance that as a product? Kristen Boyle: Yeah, it's a great question. And I will say, I don't think we are at the one model stage where we're ready to kind of geek out and give you all of the raw data, behind the scenes coding to kind of enable analysts. That's not our end goal. We want to be accessible, right? We want an HR professional, whether you're an HR analyst or not, we don't want you to have to work too hard. Kristen Boyle: We actually, so people Insight was built on consultancy. So we have a team of analysts who are, it's like, what are your business goals? How can we customize our data sets, our visualizations? What is the executive dashboard that you need that you need to share with your leadership? Okay, let's get that together. So it's very simple. Joel: So you customize a dashboard. Kristen Boyle: Yeah. Joel: Which is just a snapshot. If people want to get deeper, that's their thing. But your goal is if the CEO wants to log in and see, he's gonna see his stuff, head of HR is gonna see their stuff. Kristen Boyle: We've got customized dashboards, we also have the detailed reporting, right? So it's a series of visualizations, but yeah. Executive dashboard is the first thing you see when you log in. Now, if you as the user wanna go in and filter by team, by any data cut that you want, you can do that. Joel: And you have consultants to help with that. Kristen Boyle: And I think that's big because I think what we see, or what we're hearing from customers is that a lot of these people, they're not data experts. So if you tweak one thing with your data in Workday, is that gonna now screw up everything else from all the chart course it that you've built. Joel: Of course it's. Of course it's. Kristen Boyle: Right. And it's like... Joel: It's workday. Kristen Boyle: And so that's where we have great, a great team of analysts who are like, oh yeah, we've done that before. We got you. We know what to do. So that you don't have to kind of troubleshoot. It kind of just makes it easier. So, we really... We're the people's people analytics. Joel: I think it's always been the obstacle to make sense of the data. The data's pretty much for structured data's always been there, And you can lay it in front of them, but it doesn't... For most people, it doesn't make sense, right? So you've gotta make sense of the data. That sounds like what you guys are really focusing on doing. Kristen Boyle: Exactly. And I think, we're not there to... And that's where I think the predictive analytics, there's a lot of opportunities to kind of further how much we can just hand over to you. There's no work involved. But I think it's also, we can... We incorporate benchmarking data. We incorporate trend data so that we're making it really easy for you to understand what you're looking at and what does good look like? What does underperforming look like? But we're also... I think that's where our team of analysts comes in. But then it is partnering with customers say like, all right, what are you gonna do about it? Like, what changes are you going to make? And I think it's really empowering to HR to be able to make those... Come to the table with those suggestions. Joel: Incredibly competitive space. Kristen Boyle: Just a bit. Yeah. Joel: Talk about the competitive landscape, how you guys are different and how you sort of get that message to the customers. Chad: Like against the Visier, right? Because Visier is like the monolith right now for. Kristen Boyle: They are the monolith. I will say, and this is again, six weeks in, I would say compared to Visier, we are 90% of the value for 25% of the price. Joel: That's good. Kristen Boyle: Yeah, right. Chad: You must be in marketing. Kristen Boyle: I know, I mean, I'm not, I haven't got clearance for that on our website yet, but I'm saying it to you guys. We are fast and affordable, and we are, I think when talking to companies of all sizes who are taking their first step into people analytics, we started with Zendesk when they were a 1000 people, and now they've grown to six x that. And we've been able... Before they had a people analytics hire. They used us, we partnered with KPMG who said, we are gonna use you guys until we build it in house ourselves seven years later. Chad: And then they... Joel: Why? Kristen Boyle: It's still happening. So it takes a lot to invest. And if you're investing in a Visier, well, upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars potentially months of implementation, we kind of pride ourselves on get us the data. You'll see value in five days. We're up and running in five days and we integrate with everybody and we're very affordable. So that in and of itself, to me is like a no-brainer. Chad: Joel, you know what I'm hearing? Knocking on the door of the United States. Joel: Opportunities, knocking. Chad: The United States, what you guys really haven't really tried to engage and or invade, right? That's, as well as we do, that's not easy. Joel: Ain't easy. Chad: That is not easy. So what's the focus on go to market? Is it gonna be partnerships? Is it gonna be trying to go after those big brands? What are you guys gonna try to do? Kristen Boyle: Yeah, so I think we are kind of narrowing our focus on who we're going after compared to say, programmatic where there's, or recruitment in general, right? There's certain industries that have different strategies, different approaches that you have a more narrow target audience. I think people analytics can be relevant to everyone. We're really looking at smaller customers, smaller companies who are growing. Who are getting into this space, who have multiple point solutions in their tech stack and need to connect the dots. So that's where we're going after. I think partnerships are huge opportunities. Kristen Boyle: We're partnering with even like HR consultants who are like, all right, we use your data and then we go and fix the problems that you've identified in your people insights. So, I think partnerships is to me, the name of the game. Kristen Boyle: I'm here to kind of help with the brand awareness. How are we going to get in with the right groups? I think, I'm still trying to figure out with ATSs, getting in an ATS marketplace, I think there's a huge opportunity there. Just because we sell AT... I think there's historical, it's like, well you have an ATS so you're a competitor. But people analytics, again, by partnering and integrating with anybody, we're kind of a natural partner for any ATS. So I think there's big opportunities we're looking at this year. Joel: So we should be expecting the Super Bowl ad next year, is that what you're saying? Kristen Boyle: After Indeed and Amazon, I'm taking myself out of the Super Bowl. Joel: You're all over the big boys. Joel: I'm now a watcher and a fan. I'd like to not be stressed out the day of the Super Bowl. Joel: You like the feisty small company like the Rocky Balboa coming into America. Kristen Boyle: That's right. Joel: Making things happen. Kristen Boyle: Exactly. Joel: That is Kristen Boyle, everybody from HireRoad. Kristen, for our listeners who wanna know more about the company or connect with you, where do you send them? Kristen Boyle: Yes. Reach out on LinkedIn, Kristen Boyle, and, higherroad.com. Pretty straightforward. We would love to connect and thank you guys for having me. It's been really great. Chad: Thanks for coming. Kristen Boyle: Let's all get some more coffee. Joel: Someone pass the coffee. Another one is in the can Chad, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs to people you don't even know. And yet you listening, it's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue nacho, Pepper, Jack Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese is so weird. We out.

In this riotous episode, Chad and Joel are joined by Adam Posner, in what can only be described as a collaboration no one asked for but everyone will painfully endure. From discussing the endurance required to survive HR tech conferences without succumbing to the temptations of free booze and dubious gummies, to diving headfirst into the murky waters of AI and vaporware, no topic is off-limits and no vendor is safe. Whether you're an HR veteran or just trying to get through your commute without falling asleep at the wheel, tune in for a mix of brash opinions, occasional wisdom, and relentless mockery of everything the HR tech industry holds dear. Just remember, you were warned. So buckle up, it’s going to be a bumpy ride, and by the end, you might just find yourself wishing you had spent your time doing literally anything else. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad & Cheese podcast. Adam Posner: Let's do this, folks. This is a collab you never know you wanted but you're gonna have it anyway. Chad: I'm not sure I wanted it. Did you want this? Adam Posner: See, that's my goal is a podcast. Joel: Someone told me there'd be chocolate. Adam Posner: What kind of chocolate? Special chocolate? Cookies. Joel: Sexual chocolate. Adam Posner: Sexual chocolate. This is a collab that you never knew you wanted but we're gonna do it for you anyway. This is the Chad & Cheese podcast collaboration from Transform day 2. How do you get... You guys are veterans. How do you keep the stamina going, literally? Joel: Pace yourself. A lot of naps. Chad: It is a marathon. It's not a sprint. That's the big key. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint. Don't come the first day, drink your ass off, gamble your ass off. Adam Posner: Rookie mistakes. Chad: Yeah, that's rookie shit. That's rookie shit. You can't be doing that. Joel: Balance the meds. Balance the meals. Balance the time. You'll make it. Chad: Be careful on the gummies. Joel: We're professionals. We're 20-year plus veterans. Chad: Oh yeah. Be careful on the gummies. Adam Posner: And you guys are veterans so I'm gonna fangirl here for a moment here. I just want to thank both you guys for paving the way for folks like myself to... Chad: You're gonna make me tear up. Stop it. Adam Posner: To represent in this market, to have our voices shine but more importantly have our guest voices shine and shed a light on great thought leaders within the industry. So thank you guys for paving the road. And also about the relationships and bringing in sponsors and making those sponsors shine as well too. So thank you guys. So I'm done with the nice talk. Chad: Thank God. Adam Posner: Fuck that. Chad: I was tearing up over here. I'm getting verklempt. Adam Posner: What makes Transform special? This is my first. You guys have done this before. Joel: My first actually. Chad: Nope. Our first. Adam Posner: Never been to Transform? Joel: Totally. Chad: Yeah. Our first. Which is nice. So it was funny. Joel actually asked me earlier what makes this better than any show. I just think that there's big differences between, there's some likenesses between this and Unleashed. But I still think there's a huge difference because like 70% of the freaking sponsors and the booze I haven't seen anywhere else. Adam Posner: Right. So it's bringing a different, is it a different caliber, a different sector of the industry, different voices? Chad: There's so much in this industry. I mean, there's not one. HR Tech gets a shit ton of sponsors and also startups and vendors, blah, blah, blah. But they don't get them all. Neither does UNLEASH. Neither does RecFest. Joel: It makes me appreciate how big this space is that... Chad: Yeah. It's a big damn space. Joel: Guys like us who've been around for so long can walk into an exhibit hall and say, who the fuck are those guys? Chad: Also helps you understand for HR, TA people that this is a noisy fucking industry, right? Adam Posner: Yes. A lot. Chad: If we come into a space like this and we don't even, I mean, come on man. Joel: We live this stuff and we don't know these companies. Imagine a vendor, I mean it's like, a customer, how do they make sense of that? Now we try to on our show make sense of it for people but the biggest challenge for most of these companies is cutting through the clutter and getting noticed. Adam Posner: So let's talk about that word that's coming through, AI. Chad: Alright. Let's move 'cause we're gonna be walking. We're gonna be walking. Adam Posner: Let's go. He's gonna spin us around over here. Chad: We're walking. Adam Posner: So if you open up your ears for two seconds, you cannot go a second without hearing AI. AI, AI, AI. Like my show, you guys talk to a lot of thought leaders. How are you helping your listeners decipher and understand? And by listeners it could be vendors, it could be recruiters, it could be candidates, whoever's listening to the Chad and Cheese show or the podcast. How do you decipher what the hell AI is? Chad: It's all about being able to do due diligence and for the most part, most of these companies have no fucking clue what that even means without AI, right? So they've got to get companies in who specialize in the tech stack and AI, right? So they have to get somebody who knows because if they don't, they're gonna be buying shit they never wanted. Adam Posner: Like how do you decipher between what's a check to box or what is necessary for your tech stack? Or maybe your tech stack has so many pieces that you don't even need it. Chad: Well, then you don't need it, you don't need it. Joel: Yeah. Ultimately, AI means nothing. It's, what is the solution? Chad: Yep. Outcome. Adam Posner: What the problem is that you're looking to solve and is AI the right solution? Or maybe it's an existing, we'll call it a web tune set piece. Joel: Or is it vapor? Chad: Is it vaporware? Joel: That's important too. Chad: That's where the due diligence comes in, right? 'Cause there's a lot of fucking vaporware. Eightfold. That's out there. That's out there. Yeah, so I don't know. What about you? 'Cause you're seeing a lot of this too. Adam Posner: 'Cause I'm having a lot of conversations with the AI folks too and I think it really boils down to what is the problem that the company is looking to solve? Or how could AI help make it more efficient, faster, better to give a better candidate experience and empower the internal recruiters to do a better job with the human elements of recruiting? All three of us are recruiters, we're people leaders, we're in this space. So do we need it? Could it make our jobs better? And I think that's really what it's all about. What the fuck are these assholes doing in our space? We're gonna keep standing. We can stand. Chad: Alright. Everybody out. Get out. Joel: Get out. Chad: Evan. Joel: Get out. Chad: Out. Adam Posner: This guy;s, this guy... [laughter] So let's talk podcasting for a minute here. Chad: Okay. Adam Posner: Let's give us the stats here. How long have you guys been doing this? Chad: Seven years. Joel: Seven years this month. Chad: Seven years. Adam Posner: Mazel tov on that one. And how did Chad meet Cheese? How did Harry meet Sally over here? Hold on. I'm gonna switch over there. Chad: It is a very, very sexy story. No, not really. Literally, we're just in the same space, man. And we're both from, he spent time in Cleveland. I grew up south of Cleveland and Mansfield. So we just, we had like a quick bond, especially over sports, Ohio State. Joel: Very quick. [laughter] Adam Posner: Very quick. Joel: He's very quick. Chad: He's sexy. Adam Posner: He moves quick. And I love the, I mean, listen, like I've been studying you guys for a while. I'm an avid listener and it's a chemistry. Do you think that you could do it as well, as successful, without each other as a solo show? Joel: No. Chad: No, no, no, no, no, no. So, and I'll give you a great example. I don't know if you've ever heard of the radio show Bob and Tom. It was a big morning drive time show that was syndicated all across the US, Bob and Tom, right? Two incredibly different voices. They were incredibly successful and they were successful because they were funny. We're not that funny, but they were funny. Adam Posner: You guys are funny. Chad: And they also, they were no bullshit. And it was like, we could do that. Right? What does it sound like if you go to a conference, you've had a few drinks, like after Transform, what does it sound like if you're talking to your buddy and having some beers, right? That's what we wanted our podcast. Joel: Yeah. I think it's important to note that we were friends long before the podcast. Adam Posner: So you had the rapport, you had that jive, you had that snarkiness between you. Joel: The chemistry was there and there's too many people that start a podcast by just someone they know or, hey, I've met someone like, why don't we start a podcast? If you start without the foundation of we get along with each other, you're doomed to fail because that is eventually gonna come out as you work together. Adam Posner: You're trying to create something. Chad: This is work. Joel: It is work. Adam Posner: Dude, let's actually talk about the first thing. I think a lot of people, and we all talk about pod fade. Let's talk pod shop for a little bit here. I give everyone credit who wants to give this thing a try. Chad: Oh yeah. Adam Posner: But you guys have been doing it seven years. I've been doing it five years. This is a grind. This is a business. And if you don't have the stamina to do it, and if you don't have the why behind it, that's what as well. So what's your why? We're getting philosophical here as we're all tired. Like, why do you guys do this shit? Joel: Money's pretty much my why for everything. Adam Posner: But that's okay. Chad: My why is, why do this, we do this because there's so much fluff, pomp and circumstance in this fucking industry. Nobody cuts through the clutter and actually says what they mean because you're an HR, right? So it's like, my why was like, we need to fill that gap. And the very first time we went to SHRM Talent, I always thought that like the old HR ladies wouldn't like us because we're two dumb White dudes who were being dumb White dudes. But we've got some experience. They loved it. And they were saying, you're saying what we've been thinking and talking in small circles about for 30 years. And we're glad that somebody's finally doing it. Adam Posner: And I think that's why we're aligned. And that's why it was most important 'cause I felt you guys, we had the same vibe here. I go by this mantra of just off the cuff. We're gonna keep it real. We're gonna talk shop. But let's really lift up the hood and say what we really want to say that maybe as you said before, we're kind of scared to say, but we're gonna create a safe space for it and add the right amount of snark. Joel: Too many people try to be everything to everybody. Adam Posner: Then you're nothing to nobody. Joel: We could give a shit. We are who we are. That's gonna attract a lot of people, fortunately. But some people are gonna be turned off, offended, whatever. And that's okay. Do not go into podcasting, think you're gonna be liked by everybody. In fact, if you're not hated by someone, you're doing it wrong. Adam Posner: I grew up inspired by Howard Stern. Before I got into recruiting, I worked at SiriusXM for five years. And I grew up in New York. Howard Stern is my lifeblood. And that's the way I approach it. My opinion, best interviewer to walk the face of the earth because he turns an interview into a conversation. Chad: Yes. Adam Posner: And you guys do a great job of that, too. And I think that's really about what this space is. There are a lot of HR shows, and they're boring as fuck. They're boring. So you keep it real. What advice would you give podcasters out there to help find their voice? Joel: If they haven't already found it before the podcast, I'm not sure a podcast is gonna help you. Chad: No. There are a lot of people who have ideas and opinions, and that's great. But the thing is, the reason why Chad & Cheese actually worked, which I'm sure is the reason why Poz does, is because there was a gap. Somebody was not there doing what we're doing now. We identified that gap. I mean, after listening to a bunch of boring-ass HR podcasts, right? We thought, okay, we can do this, and people are gonna hate us in some cases, but who gives a shit? Let's just have fun. Adam Posner: But being polarizing is a benefit, too. Chad: Oh, obviously. Adam Posner: Yeah. You guys have a good business model going. Joel: And you should literally go into podcasting thinking, okay, if I'm a year into this and 10 people are listening, would I still do it? Chad: Yes. Joel: So don't do it for the listeners. Don't do it for the money, the fame, whatever. If that comes, great. Do it as if you're talking to one person, and you'd still do it because you love it that much. Chad: But we did go into this as a business. So we had a business plan on the way in. We committed a year right out of the gate. We had sponsors. Joel: We had a landing page. We registered. We had a sponsor before we... Chad: We had to get at least... Adam Posner: A lot of lessons learned from your business plan. Chad: At least 100 people had to say they would listen to our dumb voices, right, every week. And we also had sponsors on day one. Joel: Yeah. We had to get one company to give us any money. Chad: Yes. Adam Posner: That's a tough one as well. I mean, I talk about it very openly. It took me a full, almost a full year to break 200 listeners an episode, and then it hockey-sticked up because I was learning on the fly. I didn't have that business plan. I went into it, I like to say we fucking fucked around and find out and got to where we are today. But we had all those lessons learned. But from a business perspective, I mean, I'm learning a lot from you guys, how to bring in the right sponsors. Is there... It's probably Evan calling me. Does there have to be alignment with the sponsor or, as you said, are you just man-whores that take anything that comes your way? Chad: He's a man-whore, that's for sure. Joel: Does there have to be a line for the sponsor? I mean, I think ultimately if you're doing it right... Adam Posner: Are you doing like dick pills? Joel: You're going to attract sponsors that are in line with who you are, your message, your energy, etcetera. And we attract... Chad: We have turned down people though. Joel: Totally turned down people. And we understand that our listeners trust us not to do business with fly-by-night hack jobs. And part of understanding this expo and all the vendors is like, who has Chad & Cheese entrusted into being a sponsor with the show that I trust because these guys are giving it to me unfiltered? That's kind of the value to the sponsors. Adam Posner: That's the alignment. Joel: I don't think we've ever been with someone that we didn't like, that we thought was a douche bag, that we thought was bad. Chad: And we've blacklisted. Joel: For customers. Chad: Like Indeed, if they wanted to, I'm not saying they do 'cause I doubt they do, if Indeed came to us with money, I don't care how much it is, we wouldn't fucking do it. ZipRecruiter, same thing. Adam Posner: Oh, I can't even... Don't get me started. Joel: There is a number. Adam Posner: I mean, there's a fuck you number. Joel: It could be a solo show pretty quickly. Adam Posner: You know what though? There is a... Chad: It's the Cheeseman monolog. Joel: It's the Chad show. Chad: The Chad, yeah. Adam Posner: I think there is an appetite for that. But how do... You guys have been doing this for... How do you continue to stay sharp and innovate or you don't? Joel: Certainly for me, I think you as well. We always try to keep our finger on the pulse of the news, what's going on. People give us a, hey, did you hear about such and such? So early on, we just started a Facebook group with just us. And when we see something interesting, we put it on the feed. And at the end of the week, we're like, okay, everything we collected, pick five, what are we gonna talk about? And then we rank them and that's what we do. So we're always, we see something, we've trained ourselves to add it to the feed. So we don't have to think about, memorize, oh, what was all the news? We have it right there and we can pick and choose what we wanna talk about from the feed. Adam Posner: I love it. Chad: And the thing that is the most important is that we keep our wives happy. And mine's getting ready to get on stage. So we need to wrap that shit up. Joel: Back to the money. Adam Posner: And what about this? Today is my 14 year wedding anniversary and I'm here talking to you two guys, you two old White dudes over here. But for my audience, for the podcast audience, I want you guys to check out the Chad & Cheese show. It's absolutely fantastic. Why the hell should my audience listen to you two? Chad: If they give a shit about the industry, they should at least try one episode. If they like it, great. If they don't, great. Taste test. Joel: If they want an unfiltered commentary about the news of the day in our space, they should listen to our show. We're not bought by anybody. We're not a company affiliation for the show. Chad: Yeah. Adam Posner: Independent contractors. Joel: We aren't bought by anybody. We'll give it to you straight, chadcheese.com, subscribe today. Adam Posner: And absolutely. And for the Chad & Cheese audience out there, if you want a little bit of the raw, unfiltered, long form interviews, I chop it up. It's what I do best. Check out the pozcast.com. Gentlemen, thank you for your time. Thank you for the collaboration. Chad: Thanks, dude. Adam Posner: Thank you for inspiring. And it's been fucking great to hang out and actually get to meet you guys and chill and laugh a little bit last night. Chad: You too, dude. Joel: Love it. Awesome. We out. Adam Posner: Pozcast, Chad & Cheese out. Chad: We out. SFX: What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad & Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch...

In this episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, the boys discuss various topics including the Paradox' Analyst Day, the exit of Vonq from the US market, and the success of CV Wallet. They also touch on the news of Rippling's potential $13 billion valuation, the rebranding of Broadbean and Pandologic to Veritone Hire, and the acquisition of Cannabis Temp by Vangst. The hosts also mention the addition of a verified recruiter badge on LinkedIn profiles. The episode concludes with a discussion on the challenges and potential of Veritone Hire and the future of job distribution. In this conversation, Chad and Joel discuss various topics including the consolidation of brands, the potential of AI in the recruitment industry, the challenges of the cannabis market, and the leadership fails of ZipRecruiter, Nike, and Bayer. They also play a game of 'Who'd You Rather' and share their thoughts on recent funding rounds. Overall, the conversation highlights the importance of innovation, adaptability, and effective leadership in today's business landscape. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Joel (00:29.424) Yeah, two guys who've been through the desert on a horse with no name. Hey boys and girls, it's the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Goldwater Cheeseman. Chad (00:41.057) This is Chad, SPF 15, so watch. Joel (00:44.848) And on this week's episode, rapid fire, a breakup at zip, and who'd you rather? Let's do this. Joel (00:58.736) How's the desert treating you, Chad? Can we hurry up? The pools and cocktails are calling. Yeah, Phoenix is like Vegas without the drama and the crowds. It's very nice. Chad (00:59.425) Can we hurry up? Can we hurry up? I gotta get back to the pool. Yeah, I got a hot blonde. It is, yeah. And I've got a hot blonde waiting for me back at the pool. So I'm coming, Julie. I'm coming. Joel (01:14.704) haha Nice, nice. So we're here at Paradox, Analyst Day slash user groups, whatever they call it. They have a certain brand for it. It's basically like users of Paradox coming for stuff. We are here doing a Netflix style series of interviews on AI and I've been blown away by the content. I can't wait to release this to the world. Get excited if you care anything at all about AI and hiring. Chad (01:27.713) Innovation Day. Chad (01:45.217) Yeah, no, I totally dig it. We get to see a bunch of people and a bunch of brands that we care about. And one of the things I love about going to these types of events is that, you know, they want to show you the innovation and then you get to step back and you get to gauge the clients and say, oh, what do you think about this? Is this something you're going to be able to adopt or, you know, what have you? But also, you know, the vision, things that, you know, they're they're they have in test and beta. And then just having those discussions with, you know, industry leaders and individuals who use tech on a daily basis, what they give a shit about. And, you know, I got to say most of these companies that we've talked to, these TA leaders are well ahead of the rest of the market. You think you talk about the companies who adopt and they're kind of like they're fast followers. A lot of these companies are, and I am so surprised. and excited to actually have these conversations. That's cool. Joel (02:47.888) Yep. And no spoiler alerts, but introducing change into some of these organizations, a lot of teeth pulling and arm twisting to get some of these changes. But once changes are made, positive outcomes follow. So yeah, I'm excited to get this series out. And you mentioned companies here at Paradox. I'm still trying to track down McDonald's, Shake Shack, and Raising Canes. So far, no luck. I'm looking for... Chad (03:03.425) Amen. Joel (03:15.76) I'm looking for coupons, you know me, you know me, Chad. Chad (03:17.953) I think they've given them your photo and they're looking out for you as well. So in an entirely different way. Joel (03:23.76) Uh huh. Yeah. I'm on the black list at Shake Shack. I'm on the no -go list at, uh, at Raising Canes. I got to talk to JD. JD, hook me up with some more Raising Canes coupons. Chad (03:32.481) Yeah. Oh, he's going to do it. He's going to do it. You know what you're not on the blacklist for unless you haven't registered at ChadCheese .com slash free stuff. Free stuff. That's right. Beer from Aspen Tech Labs. Oh, some delicious, hazy. Who knows what we're going to send you? You don't even know what we're going to send you. It's going to land on your front door by Aspen Tech Labs. Love those guys. Whiskey, two bottles, two bottles from Tex Kernel. Joel (03:42.864) I've registered. Chad (04:01.057) One from Joel, one from myself. Love those guys over at Tex kernel. And we did t -shirts. You handed out some t -shirts this week. What was the reaction? Joel (04:08.72) this. Joel (04:14.64) Very positive. We upgraded the shirt material. It's a little more, at risk of getting canceled, it's slightly more female friendly. It's a little softer without giving too much weakness in the fabric. So I think we did well there. Everyone, maybe it's our age, our demographic, they know the Guns N' Roses influence, so there's definitely some comments about that. Chad (04:18.753) It is. Chad (04:24.481) Silky. Go yeah. Chad (04:38.465) Too easy. Yeah. Joel (04:41.456) as excitement, but they like, they like last year was ACDC this year's guns and roses. They like the theme. We'll, we'll keep that rolling. We'll keep that. Chad (04:49.089) Well, and thanks to Aaron App, if you take a look at the back of the t -shirt, you'll see a really cool Aaron App logo. They designed it especially for the Chad and Cheese shirt. So right on the back. Then we have, you know, kids, if it's your birthday, you got to actually register so that you can win some rum from Plum. Once again, chadcheese .com slash free. Gotta do it. Joel (05:00.752) It's an Aaron Original, that is true. Aaron Original. Joel (05:07.248) Oh yeah. Joel (05:15.376) Yeah. So the birthdays this week are a big tease because this is an abbreviated version of Chad and cheese because we are on the road and Chad has a blonde, a pool and a cocktail calling his name. But thanks as always to Plum. We will catch up on birthdays next week. Don't worry. We have not forgotten you everybody. Chad (05:36.609) But events, we gotta talk about events. We are going to jump, that's right, stratosphere, baby. We're talking about a jump, a leap, yes. Literally jumping off the top of the strat with Matt Bauer, the CEO of OutHire. It's over 800 and I think 50 feet or some shit like that. We're gonna have cameras all over the place. We're gonna have one. We're gonna have a depends camera on Cheeseman. You can nominate a friend, and again, this... Joel (05:52.656) out higher. Joel (05:57.296) Crazy Aussies. Joel (06:03.92) Call it insider trading, but I'm buying shares and depends everybody. You should do the same. It's not just the baby boomers that need them. Yeah. Chad (06:10.753) Go to ChadCheese .com. Up top in the header, go ahead and click Jump with us and you can register there. Then we're going to the minus five bar, that's right, Omar's Ice Castle with Diane and Jane from Great People and Omar from JobPixel. It's gonna be a blast. It's gonna be cold, so hopefully you're ready to snuggle, cheeseman. Then last but not least, May 8th. at the Neon Boneyard. Join us with Plum, where we are going to be basking in the neon lights. Yes, the neon lights, the old lights that they didn't send and recycle. No, they put them down in an elaborate where you can party and enjoy, right? So go to ChadCheese .com slash events and join the wait list there. We would love to see you in Vegas. No matter where it's at, we'd love to see you in Vegas. Joel (06:53.552) Uh huh. Make a museum. Joel (07:06.48) Good, good God. We are going deep in Vegas everybody. Holy crap, holy crap. Omar's Ice House. I like the sound of that. Chad (07:12.001) I gotta say though, I gotta say though, I gotta say though, Michelle over at Plum, she said she really enjoyed the eye poppy sound effect when we talked about neon nights. So just so you know, just so you know. Joel (07:16.368) Yeah. Mm -hmm. Joel (07:23.28) Hahaha Joel (07:28.72) We aim to please. We aim to please. In fact, I'll do one up and give her a step, bro. I love our sponsors. I love our sponsors. Chad (07:38.305) Love it, love it. Let's do it. Chad (07:44.385) next. Joel (07:46.256) All right. This week we had a lot of shout out a newsy topics. We're going to combine them both. We're calling it rapid fire. I'm going to read you the headlines from the week. Chad will comment on the ones that stood out to him, starting with sir Richard and Beverly's CV wallet just raised half a million dollars. By the way, I love a headline that says raised 0 .5 million dollars. Like the 0 .5 is really cute. Like 0 .5 probably fell out of their Maserati and he just decided to call it a funding round. Anyway, their total now raised is $2 million and the valuation of the company is now at $13 million. Congratulations to them. Firing Squad Casualty, if you will, Draftboard has raised $4 million. I invite you to go listen to that if you haven't. He did not fare well, but otherwise some investors did think. Think enough of the company to drop $4 million. Rippling, uh, deals favorite, uh, competitors and talks to raise it a $13 billion valuation. Broadbean and Panda logic will now be known as Veritone higher and weed job site. Vankst has acquired cannabis temp. Oh, and LinkedIn is adding a verified recruiter badge to profile picks a lot to digest here, Chad. What stood out to you from this week's. Chad (08:54.785) Mm -hmm. Joel (09:08.944) flurry of news. Chad (09:10.849) Who, did you mention Vonk in that one? Are we gonna talk about Vonk in this one? Joel (09:15.408) I probably miss Vonk, yeah. Too much sun in my eyes here in Phoenix. I might have missed that. Yes, Vonk has officially, and you have some inside information on this, I think, has exited America. Did not work out for them. Chad (09:29.953) Yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's just go ahead and hit that one up first. So Vonk pulls out of the U S in 2021, the European team over at Vonk started building a team in the U S and today there is literally no trace of that team left. A couple of classic points here. Number one, Vonk's last CEO wasn't from this industry and that generally doesn't bode well for a lot of startups. And number two, Vonk is a Dutch company trying to invade the U S. We praised Vonk in 2021 for the move to an experienced strategically aligned staff here in the US, but European leadership just couldn't get out of the damned way. The hardest issue for me is that the integrations into the platforms, the ISIMs and smart recruiters, pretty big integrations. You can't cultivate a relationship of that size from across the pond. And also, you know, their revenue in The US is poultry compared to what it is in Europe. And I'm an advisor and investor with Sonic jobs, a UK startup that's been around for about seven years. Sonic wanted to make the leap over the pond in the US and they have successfully in less less time than than Vonk has blown away their UK revenues in the US. Why? The US is a huge pot of gold, kids. UK smaller pot of gold. Yes, but smaller pot of gold in VONC's case They're all over Europe and to be quite frank We've had discussions with many companies in Europe who don't even know who the hell VONC is so I think they have issues in Europe number one and number two if they try to come back and from my understanding they're gonna try to come back to the US if they try to come back to the US if European leadership doesn't get the hell out of the way. They're going to fare pretty much the same, I feel, that they did this time. Joel (11:34.544) Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. The penicillin worked on the bonk, uh, in, in America. Uh, it didn't work out for, for new Amsterdam. Uh, and it didn't work out for another Dutch company, uh, in Vonk. Look, the business is the, the model is still there. The tech is still there. Uh, I'll, I'll give them one benefit of the doubt. I like the new leadership. Uh, I think the refocus, uh, is, is. Chad (11:37.377) What do you think? Chad (12:02.881) They don't have a CEO yet though. Joel (12:04.464) Well, Bill Fisher, right? I mean, he's, is he just sort of I CEO? So he, they're waiting. Okay. I enter him CEO. All right. Um, it's a wait and see for me. Uh, I'm not going to hold my breath that they're going to crush it in America or come back anytime soon. Look, you can run a company from Europe and still have market share in America. Maybe the model isn't to have a whole team over here. Uh, maybe it's just build great tech, integrate it and hope that it works. Chad (12:06.913) No, no, they're waiting. It's yeah. He's like in turn interim. They're gonna they're gonna get an entirely new dude Joel (12:33.04) It works for a lot of companies. It hasn't worked for VONC so far, but yeah, you're in sync with some of their leadership more than I am. And if you're not optimistic, then I don't have much reason to be optimistic either. Chad (12:47.713) Yeah, I like them a lot. The problem is it's hard when a company is your baby, right? And obviously they did, you know, Arno is gone, the CEO is gone, but that's not the entirety of the leadership. Yeah, we do. I mean, yeah, but that's not the entirety of the leadership. You've got to get somebody who's in there who's strong, who understands great market penetration, and hopefully that'll happen. Let's go ahead and get to... Joel (12:56.496) Mm -hmm. Joel (13:02.928) Who we like, who we like. Yeah. Chad (13:15.329) a more fun 0 .5 million CV wallet. I'm an investor and an advisor over there as well. A lot of news coming from people I know. What are the takeaways from the eRecruitment Congress with Bill Bormans that you actually pointed out on a podcast earlier this week is that jobs will find you. CV wallet embodies that statement. and is the newest and most advanced iteration of that tech. I'm really excited for Richard and Beverly and the team and noticed two things. Number one, reason for the quick 48 hour raise. They were growing so fast, they needed to get support people in, right? And then the amount. They didn't take too much, right? And I'm gonna give you some insider information. I'm gonna give you some insider information. They just took the tip, just the tip. Joel (13:59.76) Is that right? Okay. Joel (14:04.432) No. Okay. Give it to us. Don't breach your contract. Don't breach your agreement. Don't breach your agreement. I don't want, I don't want sir Richard mad at us. Okay. All right. Okay. Well, okay. The boss. Chad (14:13.345) No, no, I'm good. I'm good. I cleared this. I cleared this with Beverly. It's all good. So, CV Wallet launched March 1st of this year and they hit $1 million in ARR in 25 days. They're on pace to hit $2 million by next week and they're eyeing about $10 million in ARR by the end of the year. They're not even going to get a full 12 months. and they're going to be on pace for 10 million in ARR. That to me is a big fucking applause. Joel (14:42.992) Yep. Joel (14:50.064) Wow. I feel about CV Wallet sort of like I do every other crypto. I kind of get it, but I kind of, no, okay. I kind of get it, but I don't. Chad (14:59.745) They're not crypto. Stop it. Joel (15:09.104) break it down for me. It's profiles that are on the blockchain. So it's like a passport for multiple platforms to share resume assessment data, maybe background checks or eventually background checks. And how are they making money? What's the revenue model? Chad (15:26.017) So here's the thing, because this is rapid fire, I've already talked to Richard and we're gonna get him on the show and we're gonna run down all of those things. I know, but I don't wanna take a half an hour to try to explain to you infrastructure, all this other fun stuff. It's not easy stuff, not easy stuff. Joel (15:32.879) Oh. Oh. Joel (15:40.304) All right, well Richard works for me. Richard works for me. Can we get him to do the interview from the Maserati? Can he be in the Maserati while we're talking to him? Okay. Chad (15:46.529) Then... Chad (15:51.297) No, because there's, I don't know, maybe because they've got some really good noise dampening in a Maserati. The next news from Veritone, Veritone Hire, super human hiring is here again, apparently. We talked about them having all the pieces and the question is, can they pull all of those pieces together in time? Because the velocity of tech... Joel (15:57.168) Okay, all right. Moving on. Chad (16:17.729) today is moving so fast, is it going to pass them up before they actually get the puzzle put together? That's the hard part. But what's most interesting to me about this company isn't the AI, it's the ability to provide basic job distribution and more advanced performance driven job distribution. Because not all companies are ready for performance based jobs. And if you are serving global clients, you have to understand that performance based ads, aren't as well adopted across the pond, right? So they have both, they can do both. So they're ready for that transition. Then think of the prospect of using Wade and Wendy AI for pre -screening an application. It's a practical posting play combined with heightened candidate experience and a better way to collect data. The question is, again, can the maestro make this orchestra play the right tune? If so, I think it'll be a hell of a symphony. Joel (16:55.568) Mm -hmm. Joel (17:15.92) How do you feel about, because Broadbean is a long time brand, I think mostly positive and Pando's been built last 10 some years, the brand there. Do you think dumping those is a mistake or do you think it just is something that had to be done and Wade and Wendy as well, but much less so. Chad (17:26.817) Mm -hmm. Chad (17:33.313) No, I think, yeah, I think it's something that had to be done and it's gonna be happening for the most part behind the scenes. When you need a big brand, right, these are job distribution that's happening pretty much out of applicant tracking systems and then you've got performance based that's happening through ad agencies, right? So you don't really have to have a great brand for McDonald's or for Lowe's or Lockheed Martin, right? Just the... Joel (17:59.568) Yeah, it's not a consumer brand, right? So, yeah. Chad (18:01.633) Yeah, yeah, you don't need to have that. So I think it's smart. Go ahead and consolidate that. Save money on even the thought of marketing or keeping three brands and whatnot and three websites actually running. So, yeah, I think it's smart. But once again, that's all going to be water under the bridge if they just can't get this thing moving fast enough. Joel (18:24.624) Yeah, I really like the pieces that they're pulling together here. I like the leadership. I know they made some hard decisions. It's the era of AI and if this company can't make it happen in AI when it's an AI first company, like it's, it's, it's set to win. Like you're going to have to try hard to fuck this up based on what they've, they've done. I think the brand change was necessary. Consolidated all put it under one umbrella. Uh, so the, the, the market understands and they're. Chad (18:28.609) Yeah. Yeah. Joel (18:53.136) It's not like the extension of the brand is confusing. I think everyone, Veritone Hire, I think most Pando people understand the acquisition, Broadbean again, there's not much connection to the brand. So yeah, I think we're both rooting for Veritone. They are a sponsor, full disclosure. So obviously we like them to win, but it's a good story, great technology. And it's a technology that was general in how it came to our space as opposed to our space and then trying to go general. So it's really exciting to have. that dynamic in our space. So I think we should all be kind of at least rooting for them to shake things up and be successful. Chad (19:30.945) Yeah. And I think being here in paradox, we were talking about AI a lot, right? And at the end of the day, this is all about outcomes. What's the problem that you're trying to fix with whatever solution you have in place? But you've got to remember that, again, the velocity of tech today, you're going to have to have AI in your back pocket. It might not be necessary right now, but if you're not building for tomorrow, you're going to be dead kids. Joel (19:35.856) Mm -hmm. Joel (19:58.16) Yep. Any other news items catch your attention? Chad (20:02.817) Yeah, the whole draft board thing still just blows my mind. Nobody can get referrals to actually work inside a company. Now we're going to try to do it outside of a company. I mean, it's just for me, there's so many PE VC investors who they have so much money that they've been holding onto and they literally, they're just looking to spend it on anything. Again, love the guys, the team over there. Joel (20:10.352) Not in this way, yeah. Chad (20:30.432) They realize they don't have the background in this space, although they're going to push forward and they should. And they've got 4 million plus reasons to be able to do that. But again, we know where this ends. Joel (20:43.984) it has ended historically. Doesn't mean it'll end that way in the future, but odds are. History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure as hell does rhyme. Any take on the weed acquisition? Chad (20:48.225) get my crystal ball out. Crystal ball. Chad (20:57.473) And weed is interesting because it is such a big business. We should be hearing more about this, right? There's a huge, huge market. If you go to, I mean, we're here in Arizona, there's a huge market here. There's a huge market in pretty much the entire West Coast, right? I think what we're going to see, and hopefully what we're gonna see is, at least with these laws, they're gonna move forward. I mean, it's crazy how we're dragging, Joel (21:24.048) Yeah. Chad (21:26.209) uh, you know, uh, rovers is weighed out and then Arizona is going back to 1864, but, oh, you can go ahead and have weed. I mean, it's just, the signals are so mixed, but when it comes to weed, that's all about money, right? And we know here in America, politics is about what? It's about the green. It's about the lobbyists. It's about the green. Joel (21:46.96) cash. Yeah. And it is about the green in terms of until, until the federal government observes weed as a legal business, it's gotta be really hard to acquire companies and merge companies in this space. I mean, they don't have bank accounts, right? Like let alone like, let me buy a company rule of law. Do lawyers get involved with that? If it's legal business, like there's gotta be so many hurdles to making shit like this happen that, uh, The fact that it happened at all is pretty surprising to me. I know Vance is one of the more high profile. I said high profile. I said high, high profile. And they've had the most money. It's a good business, but it's also not. It hasn't really blown up until it's federally legal, until Philip Morris and Reynolds get into it and start buying up all these companies and brands. I think it's just going to be in the status quo. world of nothingness for the most part. My guess is Cannabas Temp, not exactly a brand name. I'm sure it was like some dudes that were high in the fucking basement like, let's sell the company. And it was so. Chad (22:46.337) For me though. Chad (22:56.993) I got to say that, you know, for me, and this is my personal investment strategy, I look long -term and you look for this thing to pop. And I just think that within the next, you know, five, 10 years, it's going to pop and it's going to be federal. And so, yeah, I think they're making a very smart bet on the market and what's going to happen in about 10 years. As we sit back and wait, I think anybody who buys into it personally, Joel (23:05.584) Mm -hmm. Joel (23:23.024) Yeah. Chad (23:26.145) I think it's smart. Joel (23:28.624) When this thing becomes legitimized, it's going to be like Katie bar the door. There's going to be startups galore, money galore. Yeah. Big tobacco is going to get into it. Like we'll be talking about it probably on a weekly basis, but not so much now. Chad (23:32.993) Skyrocket. Yeah. Chad (23:40.129) Oh yeah. And you'll be taking, you'll be taking more five milligram THC at the sphere. Joel (23:44.624) I don't know what you're talking about, Chad. Chad (23:51.681) Oh my God, that was funny. Joel (23:53.136) All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about who'd you rather. Joel (24:03.056) All right, Chad, are you ready for a game of who'd you rather? That's right, we take two companies that have recently gotten funding. I read a summary and Chad and I decide who we'd rather. All right, Chad, first up we have Paraform. They've raised $3 .6 million in funding. The San Fran based startup targets laid off recruiters starting their own businesses, connecting them with startups for talent sourcing with a subscription and success fee model. Paraform aims to expand globally and into new job markets just beyond tech roles into others using, you guessed it, AI. And in this corner, We have Take Two AI. New York City -based Take Two AI has raised $3 million in seed funding with participation from tech stars and HR leaders from Visa, Disney, HP, and Google. The startup aims to help companies generate tailor -made simulations of real -world sales scenarios to vet job applicants for skills, behavioral attributes, and culture fit. hoping to minimize miss hires and improving retention. That is Paraform versus Take Two Chad. Who'd you rather? Chad (25:27.297) Well, I'm going to start off with Take Two AI. So let me start out by saying, and I'm very biased when it comes to this because I advise Tadio, also a performance -based job simulation platform. But can the candidate actually perform the tasks necessary for the job? Resumes can't provide actual performance data, right? Yeah, and someone might've been the best salesperson on an already shitty team. But what happens if that... Joel (25:52.912) Mm -hmm. Chad (25:54.625) not so shitty salesperson comes to a team of high performers. You just don't know, right? So not all numbers are relative, yet performance through simulations can scale and they can really help with the hiring process. And I liken this to, because I've been in many sales interviews, sell this pen, right? You're in an interview and they do what? They sell this pen, right? This is even better because... Joel (26:19.184) Sell me this pit. Chad (26:20.513) Yeah, you can do that at scale, right? And you can also have the individual go through a CRM and go through all those different things. So I mean, that to me, it makes more sense and it's more practical. Now, Paraform, what the fuck do they actually need AI for this? I mean, this is ridiculous. It's a side hustle platform for recruiters. For me, it's way too small. I would look at it. kind of side eye and then walk past, I'm going to take to AI, sell me this pen all day. Joel (26:54.352) All right. I love it. So I agree with Paraform. This is bounty jobs. This is, this has been done for decades. It hasn't hit a marketplace for recruiters. We're in a world where we're talking about fewer recruiters. So the idea of launching a recruiting marketplace seems a little bit slow growth or no growth to me. So that one is a real, that's a real no -go for me. That's a, that's a skank in the corner that I'm not. paying any attention to on Hooger rather. Now the take two, uh, interesting name. Uh, it was a band from the nineties also, uh, from like a Brit pop band. Anyway, enough about enough about my past musical career. Um, my thing with sales is the trend of AI AIing. Is that a word of using AI to automate calls outreach to people? Um, Chad (27:47.873) Sure, why not. Joel (27:53.424) and then give them to someone who was already experienced in sales. Yes, hot leads. I've scheduled a demo, but we've heard, we've seen the air .ai demo of real calls, companies like Apple and Tesla are using these voice calls basically to try to sell computers and cars. So I don't see a huge company in training salespeople in this way. However, Chad (27:56.289) Hot leads. Hot leads. Joel (28:22.32) I do appreciate that the human touch in sales, the more you automate it is going to be important. So training like real people, salespeople that are, that are selling SaaS businesses and products that are six figure deals that you can't do with an automated voice or video, uh, in, in the process. So for me, like, I don't think it's a huge win. I love, uh, the video. If you, if, if you're interested in this business, uh, tech stars, there's a video of the presentation or demo. which is pretty cool. They have some big heavy hitters behind this company. So for those reasons, it's kind of an easy layup of who I would rather and I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna side with you and go with take two as who I'd rather. That's been another game of who'd you rather. Chad, we're gonna take another break and talk about some leadership fails. Joel (29:24.4) Chad, it was a bad week for leadership in the world of business. First, ZipRecruiter's COO, Kasim Safi, is leaving after serving in the role for just under three years. Nike CEO, John Donahoe, is blaming remote work for the company falling behind on innovation, saying that it's tough to be disruptive when people are working from home. And Bayer's... Chad (29:28.193) Hmm. Yeah. Joel (29:52.784) CEO aims to save $2 .15 billion by get this eliminating middle managers and most of the company's corporate handbook. Employees will self -manage in dynamic shared ownership teams, whatever that means, focusing on projects for 90 day stretches. Chad, Zip, Nike and Bayer aren't exactly winning this week. What are your thoughts? Chad (30:24.161) Zip hasn't been winning for a while and I don't know why the CEO left. I don't know why he left, but why not the CEO? Because think about it. Ian's vision was pretty tight before the IPO. Before the IPO, Zip, they weren't as sloppy as they are now. I mean, this is just horrible. They have had an amazing product. Joel (30:36.112) Wow. Chad (30:51.297) that was slightly ahead of everybody else. I'm not going to say they were incredibly innovative, but they were on the road, right? Yeah, they had an amazing product. They were slightly ahead of everybody else. They were putting tons of cash into AI and R &D in Israel, right? And they were delivering great results since the IPO. And again, we've talked about this before. Sometimes CEOs are good to a certain level, right? Joel (30:58.576) near their lane. Chad (31:19.681) And then they just have to know, they have to self identify, they have to pick themselves out, right? Ian, after the IPO, it just seems like this organization has fallen incredibly flat and they're starting to get lapped by a bunch of startups that are out there right now. And that's the unfortunate part. So yeah, I mean, what do you think? I know asking for Ian's head isn't great, but you know, when... Joel (31:36.464) Mm -hmm. Chad (31:49.313) The organization is in the dumper for God's sakes since IPO, I don't know what to do. Joel (31:58.416) Uh, it's a hot take, uh, calling for Ian to step down. That's for sure. We have our, we have our YouTube short, uh, for the week for sure on that one. Um, I, I, CEOs are, it's hard to dislodge them. Um, but the, if the stock doesn't turn around soon, there's going to be rumblings and look, the COO leaving any, any, any C -suite employee that leaves. It's not good. Unless they've been there for 20 years, they have a succession plan. They've been like grooming a six. Like we've talked about ice Sims, you know, CEO jump inch, like people, when they leave like this, it's bad. And the trend is when they leave more people leave the company goes through worse time. So this does not bode well for, for zip recruiter, whether or not Ian needs to step down. I don't know. Uh, uh, Kaseem was. Chad (32:29.505) Yeah. Chad (32:41.857) Yeah. Joel (32:54.704) this he was in marketing when he came in, I think five years ago, he became the chief marketing officer. So he actually over oversaw probably a lot of the cool marketing initiatives that we know and love from the, from those days at Zip Recruiter guy became COO. So he, he wasn't, uh, you know, we brought him in, it didn't work out. He's gone. He's been with the company for a while. He knew what he was getting into. I'm sure they felt really comfortable putting, putting him in that position, but look, the, Company's going nowhere. There's no, there's little to no growth. I think they've, uh, they've barely moved headcount since he took over, uh, two, two, two years and eight months ago, the stock is going sideways. He actually dumped, uh, 33 ,000 shares of the stock in December of last year. So he's kind of known the writing on the wall for a while. He's dumping shares, he's jumping ship and it is not a good sign. Chad (33:32.609) Mm. Joel (33:49.168) for ZipRecruiter that this shit is going down. It's a bad situation at ZipRecruiter, for sure. Chad (33:54.785) Well, and then you've got a great brand like Nike and you've got a total dipshit of a CEO, John Donahoe on Friday who blamed remote workers, as you'd said, for falling behind on innovation, saying it's tough to be disruptive from home. The problem is here, kids, we have a bunch of prehistoric fucking CEOs that are out there who don't understand that leadership isn't standing over somebody's shoulder, right? You're going to have to evolve. You're going to have to learn how to lead from afar. And anybody who actually has been through any type of leadership courses or mentoring or anything like that understands that you have to be diplomatic. You have to work with empathy. But you have project deadlines and goals for a reason, right? You need to start managing toward that. Not to mention, you know, we're really early, to be quite frank, in the remote work kind of, you know, time of our life. We're getting there, but we're not going to get there. Nike's not going to get there with the CEO with this type of mindset because he doesn't understand that he needs to evolve. And only, only, only when he evolves will the rest of his teams and his staff not only evolve, but they will become disruptive. They will regain the ability to be disruptive. Joel (35:18.544) Yeah. Nike, a very successful company historically is in a slow period, if you will. The stock is down about 8 % in the last six months. China's slowing for them. Growing markets historically are slowing down. And when things get bad, leadership tends to point fingers, try to find an escape valve. Chad (35:42.305) Not me. Not me. Joel (35:45.2) to explain what's going on. And an easy explanation is, well, there's no innovation because everyone's remote. You know who's been kicking Nike's butt for the last few years? Little company called Hoka and another company that makes shoes called On. Now I'm not a shoe -y guy, but I think that's how you pronounce those two. You know who has remote work? Hoka and On. So don't come to me saying, We can't innovate because of remote workers when the two companies that have been kicking your ass for the past few years have remote work. Figure it out. Quit pointing fingers. You work for Nike. Put your big boy pants on. Put your Air Jordans on and figure that shit out. Period. Chad (36:23.585) Uh huh. Chad (36:30.881) Fire yourself. Now when it comes to... Joel (36:34.096) I need the company that made aspirin because I need an aspirin after that, after those hot takes. Let's go to Bayer. Chad (36:37.441) Yes, yes, yes. So, so, so, so Bayeris really interesting because this just feels like a lazy restructure. Obviously, there was a lot of company, there was a lot of bloat and you see that in organizations. It is, you know, the CEO's job to manage that bloat, right? You have people in place to be able to know what's happening in the organization. Apparently, they got together and said, you know what, we're really bloated. Joel (36:55.792) Mm -hmm. Chad (37:04.097) And our processes are slowing us down, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That's all well and good. A restructure makes sense. But this just seems fucking lazy. We're just going to go ahead and take an entire swath just right out. OK, who are we going to take? Are we going to take these guys and we're going to throw them right out the window? Will it work? I had no clue. When you have that much bloat and I would assume that's that's the that's the problem here. Two things going to happen. Number one, you want to try to move. Joel (37:21.52) Yep. Chad (37:34.081) processes faster, so you don't want all those bottlenecks in the hierarchy. Number one. Number two, saving that much money over a billion dollars, that's short -term good for the bottom. Joel (37:48.688) Uh huh. Well, one man's lazy could be another man's bold, Chad. Chad (37:56.385) Could be. It could be. Joel (37:58.704) So I mentioned Nike stock being down 8 % in the last six months. Care to take a guess on how much Bayer stock is down in the last six months? It begins with a four and ends with a zero. That's right, 40 % down in the last six months as a pharmaceutical company. I don't know if you've read Chad, but people are getting older and taking more drugs. And if you can't make a pharmaceutical company successful, well, I can't really help you. I love the fact... Chad (38:07.201) Oh. Joel (38:24.848) I do want to love this. I do want to love it. It's such a big swing that you kind of got to love it. A company with a hundred thousand employees is going to do something like this. The guy's comment about the employee handbook is literally more pages than war and peace. That's a problem. And I know the Germans love their orders and their instruction books. Chad (38:44.033) Yeah. Oh yeah. Process. Yes. Joel (38:51.024) Maybe take a page from the Swedes and make a little more picture pages in your instruction book than what the Germans have done. So I want to love this, but it reeks of holy shit. The board wants my head share. Hell shareholders want my head. I'm just going to dump a bunch of employees and say, we're making a huge change. And I'm going to pray, pray that it, that it, that it keeps the keeps me in my job and saves the company. Otherwise, this is a huge swing. It's either going out of the park. Chad (39:06.081) Mm -hmm. Joel (39:21.264) or he's going back to the dugout and into the parking lot and he's done. But this is three companies, Zip, Nike and Bayer, that have really, really done some weird shit. And while all this is happening, Chad, I'll remind you, Art Zeal and Scott Gutz are still employed as CEOs. We out! Chad (39:43.169) Wookie out.

This week, Chad & Cheese discuss various topics including the EEOC targeting Workday, non-competes taking a hit, and the acquisition of Pivot CX by Daxtra. They also talk about their upcoming events in Scotland and Vegas, jumping off the Stratosphere, as well as the ban on TikTok. The conversation covers a range of themes including technology, acquisitions, events, and current news. They discuss recent developments at ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, and Workday. They also touch on the banning of non-compete agreements, the raising of the salary threshold for overtime eligibility, and the unionization of Volkswagen workers in Chattanooga. The conversation concludes with a discussion on a TikTok influencer partnering with Shake Shack and Chipotle's success with their new chicken offering ... take that, Chik-fil-A. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Joel Cheesman (00:26.068) OHHH YEAH! Joel Cheesman (00:30.995) Yeah, just two guys who love to stop collaborate and listen. Hi kids, you are listening to the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Van Winkle Cheeseman. Chad (00:42.35) This is Chad. Who farted? So was. Joel Cheesman (00:45.747) And on this episode, the EEOC targets Workday, non-competes take a hit, and who's ready for Chicken Sundays? Let's do this! Chad (00:54.147) Yes! Chad (00:58.614) So it's funny though, dude, guys falling asleep and farting in court. It's, it's the best. I mean, that's great. I mean, what do you expect from an old man to do? Right? Dude's almost 80. Of course, wherever he sits, he's going to fall asleep and he's going to fart. It's just, it is, it is what it is. Right. And if you put him in the court. Joel Cheesman (01:04.985) Oh, Trump. Okay. I was like, I was Joel Cheesman (01:18.627) I'm wondering, I'm wondering because he has he has that front butt, you know, like the butt in the front. I wonder where the farts come out or the is like dual exit. Yeah, dual legs. I don't know. He's so mad about he's so he's so mad about the artist rendition of him, which is funny. Like, get off my lawn and stop drawing me that way. So Chad (01:27.338) Oh, I don't want to know. It just kind of verb rates out the out. Chad (01:41.902) Don't you draw me. Joel Cheesman (01:45.531) Euro chat is clearly ready for takeoff. I appreciate like you're in such a good mood. I love it. Big plans this weekend like Scott's Yeah, that helped as well. Yeah, nice little primer there. Chad (01:51.103) Oh yes. Yeah. Scottsdale helped, yeah, and we're prepping, we're gonna be in Santa Fe next week, taking a little vacay-ish action with some friends in Santa Fe before going to Unleash, which we'll talk about later, but yeah, no, I am in total Eurochad mode because after Unleash, we're hopping on the jet plane and going to Europe. Joel Cheesman (02:05.883) Okay. Joel Cheesman (02:20.967) Well, say a prayer for me. I'm doing a mini marathon this weekend. Yes. I know that seems a little crazy, right? But yeah, it's, uh, it was, it was a tradition. So my dad was a marathon or track coach, like, and so he was doing, he would do these marathons as he got older. He downgraded to mini marathons and my sister and I said, let's do it with them. Chad (02:21.244) Mm-mm. Chad (02:27.244) Oh, I hope they have the paddles. Hope they have the paddles ready. Joel Cheesman (02:48.335) start a family thing and we kind of hope that our kids would slowly like start joining us. And my sister has four girls, two of them have done it once and no more. Obviously Cole isn't doing it. Cole's not running unless someone's chasing him. Stella maybe, maybe at some point, but so far this may, this tradition may die with my sister and I, but I'll be in Louisville. Chad (02:56.138) No. Chad (02:59.614) Okay. Yeah. Chad (03:05.118) Oh god no, yeah. Joel Cheesman (03:13.883) Louisville this weekend doing 13.1, uh, mostly walking miles. Thank God there's a lot of bourbon in Louisville to help, uh, comfort my pain that in some ibuprofen. All right, let's get to. Chad (03:23.678) Amen. A. Chad (03:29.201) Oh shit, well... Shout out. Joel Cheesman (03:34.723) All right, Chad, this one, this one pains me, but I got a shout out for the, the VR haters out there, all the VI haters that are out there. So, uh, Apple came out with the vision pro, uh, one they have since apparently cut production from 800,000 to four, 400 to 450,000 units. Uh, Sony has halted production of their VR, something with the PlayStation gaming stuff and even meta says. Chad (03:38.561) Uh oh Joel Cheesman (04:04.935) They're having a hard time keeping users engaged once they actually buy the damn thing. So, unless Vision Pro turns around on their opinion that porn should not be on the Vision Pro, I think it's a big shout out for the folks who hate VR, which I know you are one of them. But so far, the verdict on VR and headsets is not good. Chad (04:31.95) The reason being is because you're not with anybody, but you know when you're with somebody and you're really experiencing VR, you did it this weekend. You went to fish at the sphere. The sphere is how you do virtual reality. Tell me I'm wrong. Joel Cheesman (04:46.135) The sphere is another animal. Now, how many of the people at a fish concert are really there with you? A lot of them were on another planet, I'm pretty sure. There were some hot messes at the sphere concert, but yeah, it was great. Look, I'm not a big fish fan. Their live stuff is way better, and if you throw in some substances and some of the visuals that the sphere has, Chad (04:55.694) Physically, physically, yes. Metaphysically. Joel Cheesman (05:17.077) It's a pretty good time. Shout out to fish and the sphere for sure. The new VR, it just costs a lot more per ticket than the headset does. Chad (05:25.062) It's, I mean, it's you get to do it with people and that's, and that's what matters. And that's what matters. Okay. My shout out, it's not really a shout out. It's the, what the actual fuck moment of the week. So the following was reported on nola.com. A Louisville, or I'm sorry, a Louisiana committee voted Thursday to repeal a law requiring employers to give child workers lunch breaks. I'll say that again. Joel Cheesman (05:29.715) That's true. Chad (05:53.122) child workers lunch breaks and to cut unemployment benefits. Part of a push by Republicans to remove constraints on employers and reduce aid for injured and unemployed workers. That's from NOLA.com. First time state rep Roger Wilder, who sponsored the child labor measure and owns, get this, Smoothie King franchises across the deep South said he filed the bill in part because children want to work without having to take a lunch break. He questioned why Louisiana has the requirement while other states where he has smoothie king locations such as Mississippi don't have them. So what the fuck? Roger Wilder. So out of 50 states, Louisiana is rated last, dead last in a place where you want to live, quality of life, right? Worst, well in healthcare they're 46th, education 48th, economy 47th, infrastructure 47th, opportunity 48th, crime and correction 50th. Louisiana is rated the worst state in the union to live in, followed by guess what other state? Guess what state? Yes, Mississippi. Joel Cheesman (07:12.099) Mississippi, Alabama. Chad (07:17.506) So this has been your Chad and Cheese what the actual fuck moment of the week. This is, I couldn't believe it. Joel Cheesman (07:21.523) But the football is amazing and the etouffée is to die for. I'll tell you that Chad. All right, well my last shout out, if you're a TikTok user, might've been kind of a bummer this week. Congress voted to give some money to Ukraine. Yeah, but that wasn't the lead story. It was TikTok being quote unquote banned. As many listeners know, you had a bet with Jim, the indeed whisperer Durbin for a. Chad (07:27.235) Ha ha! Get in and get out. Joel Cheesman (07:50.415) bottle of bourbon. Did he ever come? Did he ever honor that bet? Did you ever get the? Okay. All right. Well, good. Chad (07:50.538) did. Oh, he did. Oh, oh yeah. No, he did. No, he did. He sent me Eagle rare. He actually, he messaged Julian. He's like, what's Chad's favorite? And he's like, no, what's your favorite? And she's like, oh, Eagle rare. So yeah, she pretty much got a bottle of burp. Joel Cheesman (07:59.604) Okay, well that's... Oh. Joel Cheesman (08:11.547) She said yours and it was like, oh, that's expensive. What's your favorite then? Eagle Rare, if you can get it. Yeah, so if he had just a few more months, he might have been able to at least argue that was happening. Now, it's probably not an all out ban. Interesting, your comments on this, your opinion on this. So they have to divest it, they have to sell it to an American firm, or outright ban. What's your prediction on what happens? Chad (08:18.335) Which is not cheap. Chad (08:26.032) We still have a while. Chad (08:41.462) Yeah, it won't get banned. I mean, there's too much money there. Way too much money. Uh, China doesn't want to give up that kind of cash because there's a huge pond of, you know, ocean of cash here in the U S so they don't want to do that. And not to mention Trump had talked about doing this before the whole divestiture thing. So they, they've been thinking about it for a while. I would say that they saw this coming. Uh, and, uh, you know, so they're gonna, they're gonna slow roll it. There's no question. They're gonna. play it smart, slow roll it, but they'll find a company to buy into it. There's no question. Joel Cheesman (09:11.503) Now, do you think that China will release? I mean, the algorithm is not coming with the deal. Do you think, and if not, is tick tock going to be the same tick tock without the algorithm? Chad (09:24.094) Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how they actually do that on separate instances. They could prospectively do updates, which what it does is just updates the algorithm in a different instance, which is what we've seen with applicant tracking systems and HCM systems and so on and so forth over the years. So whenever you do a version update, they could prospectively do an algorithm update. I don't know. So we'll see, but that will be part of the deal to understand the algorithm itself. Joel Cheesman (09:28.903) Yeah. Chad (09:54.118) impact and then obviously the data that does that's in the U S that will not leave to go to China because it'll be under, I'm sure a separate holding company. Joel Cheesman (10:03.759) Yeah, I'm gonna go kind of kind of rogue on this one. I think I think there's a good chance no one's talking about it. I think there's a decent chance China says fuck off. And they kill it. I do think that's an option. I think China doesn't give a shit. I mean, they put they put Jack Ma, they put Jack Ma in some, you know, work worker, reeducation camp. I don't think China gives a shit. They might just say fuck it. It's gone then and see what and have fun with that American government. Chad (10:19.15) That's an option. What's the percentage on that? Joel Cheesman (10:33.519) with your kids, they're already protesting on college campuses everywhere. Chad (10:36.566) Then we win. I mean, that's the last thing they want, right? I mean, they can still get cash. Let's say for instance, how the deal might be structured. I'm not sure. We're both talking out of our asses right now, but it is interesting. There's no question. Joel Cheesman (10:48.891) Band in America, band in America. But what's not banned, Chad, and never will be banned, is free shit on Chad and Cheese. That's right, tell us about that. Chad (10:53.569) Free stuff, baby. Joel Cheesman (11:05.643) Very nice Chad (11:07.286) That's right. T-shirts, free t-shirts, kids. Beer by Aspen Tech Labs. Love those kids. We're talking craft beer. At your front doorstep. That's right. UPS, FedEx, whoever sends that stuff. Going to be at your front door. Along with the prospect of whiskey from our friends at Tex Kernel. We've got two bottles from one from Chad, one from Cheese. And if it's your birthday, it's rum from Plum, but you got to go to ChadCheese.com slash free to register to win. Joel Cheesman (11:28.914) Oh, birthday time. Joel Cheesman (11:40.251) That's right, Chad. Some listeners celebrating another trip around the sun is Jonathan Zilla, Duarte Mendonca, Daniel Kazinski, Matt Lazar, Gia Johnston, Chris Brevik, Michael Simon Cowell, Steve Gilbert, Charlotte Marshall, and Lars Schmidt. All celebrating another birthday. Thanks for listening and enjoy one on us. Chad (12:01.93) Nice. Chad (12:07.206) Nice. So Lars is at like NBA headquarters or some shit like that doing like a, a photo shoot or something. I don't know. I don't know, but it must've been a birthday thing. Joel Cheesman (12:13.563) That dude is like quietly the coolest cat in our industry. He's got skateboards on the wall. He's, he's like laid back, but he's sort of DC hypercharge. I love it. Lars and Lars, not enough Lars in the world either. Chad (12:21.174) I love it, man. I gotta love it. Yep. Chill. Totally chill. Chad (12:30.714) Everybody needs a little bit more Lars. And well, maybe, I don't know, he might actually show up where? In Scotland. That's right. Because we're going to Scotland. We'll talk about Unleash in a minute. OK, but this is new. This is new. On May 21st, we're going to be at the Revolution de Cuba. That's right. In Glasgow, where we're going to, we're going to be jumping around all day with startups, with practitioners, we're going to be doing interviews, all that other fun stuff. But we're going to do a meetup. Joel Cheesman (12:31.385) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (12:36.464) Oh shit. Chad (13:00.362) at revolution day Cuba in Glasgow. Notice how I love saying that, uh, not to mention on May that's May 21st, May 23rd, we're going to the three sisters bar in Edinburgh, apparently people were killed in the dungeon of this place. I mean, that's probably everywhere in Scotland, but three sisters bar in Edinburgh, that's on the 23rd. Joel Cheesman (13:05.199) I love that. I love it. Chad (13:26.734) You can register for one or both events at truescotland.com. Thanks for all of the sponsors, for all of the help and all of the support. We've got Daxtra, got Ashby, Solutions Driven, Gigged.ai, Willow, Poetry, and we actually have some Daxtra news coming here soon. But appreciate all of the help and all of the fun and what do you think? I mean, other than whiskey, this is awesome. both our first times in Scotland. Joel Cheesman (13:57.483) Oh, I'm super excited. Uh, bringing the wife. I know you are too. Um, I think we're going to go on some sort of secret tasting, uh, expedition with our friend, Steven McGrath, who knows where the hell that's going to end up? Uh, so doing that never been to Scotland. I'm going to soak it all in. Uh, I'm, I'm shopping for kilts. Um, I'm, I'm looking for haggis, uh, at, at my local Kroger. They don't have it. So I don't know where I can get some. Chad (14:20.478) Yes! I'm not doing that. Joel Cheesman (14:28.752) So, so Scotch eggs are on the menu if I can't get some get some haggis but yeah, totally excited. You know, I love a good Scotch. Pete me up baby smoke it up. I'm excited for sure. Yeah. Love me some Scotland. Chad (14:32.462) OK, there we go. Chad (14:40.406) I know, I know. So we're excited about that. Go to truescotland.com. Again, two events, Glasgow and Edinburgh. Then, well, even before we get to Scotland, hopefully we make it to Scotland. We've got this coming and this is, this is watch everybody. This is what we're getting ready to do. We've got live from the stratosphere. Joel Cheesman (14:52.263) Mm-hmm. Chad (15:16.686) Uh oh. Apparently the winds are too high. Joel Cheesman (15:24.443) Ha ha ha. Chad (15:30.386) It's Joel Cheeseman, everybody! Joel Cheesman (15:31.204) Yeah, thanks, man. Joel Cheesman (15:44.967) Tell the listeners what they missed if they're not watching us on YouTube right now. Chad (15:45.934) Oh, that's right, kids. Yes. Well, yeah, if you're not listening, you missed super J Dave jumping off the top of the stratosphere, uh, which we're going to be doing with Matt Bauer, CEO of out higher, it's over 800 feet that we're going to be dropping. We're going to be falling in super Dave style. At least you're going to be doing super Dave style. Um, but listener, you can jump with us. Joel Cheesman (16:05.363) Mm-hmm. Chad (16:11.75) or you can nominate a friend or enemy depending on what you like. I just go to Chad, she's got.com and click on the jump with us button right there in the header. Uh, thanks to the high flying staff over at out hire. We appreciate you guys making this happen. It's going to be a blast. Joel can't wait. He's excited. Look at him. Look at his face. Joel Cheesman (16:12.563) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (16:33.395) wearing the out-hire t-shirt this week, wearing the out-hire depends on jump day, if you will. Chad (16:37.815) Very nice, you're nice. Yeah. Chad (16:43.37) Everybody, everybody buys stock and depends. That's for sure. Then we're going to go to the mine. Yeah. Well, no, we got to go to the minus five bar. That's Omar's ice castle at the minus five bar with Diane and Jane from great people and Omar from job pixel. Go ahead and if you check us out on the socials, mainly probably on LinkedIn, uh, if you haven't connected with us, go ahead and do that. Take a look at our, our stream. Joel Cheesman (16:44.995) Yeah. You ready for topics? Nope. Okay. Joel Cheesman (16:53.827) Oh yeah. Chad (17:11.858) We actually have where you can Register that's right to come have some beers with us at the ice castle Then we're going to do the neon lights with plum on the night of May 8th Come and bask in the glow of the neon boneyard with our friends from plum During neon nights kind of like boogie nights, but without the skates Joel Cheesman (17:20.858) Damn. Chad (17:35.918) Um, just go to Chad cheese.com slash events, click on the join waitlist button and cross your fingers. Kids hope you get on the waitlist. We hope that we see you there. Joel Cheesman (17:45.575) So I have a funny story about the neon graveyard. So I get a text, I don't know if you got a text. Cheeseman, it's Michelle from Plum. I need your music mind. The music at Neon Nights is designed to resonate with the generation attending. Think best dance party you attended in the 90s and early 2000s. Stuff you wanna sing along and tap your toe to, even if you're not a dancer like my friend, Jason Putnam. So. Chad (17:54.825) Oh, yeah. Joel Cheesman (18:14.811) I have been burdened with the task of going back to the 90s and the 2000s for the songs that really hit me, hit me in the, uh, the happy feet to recommend a soundtrack for the, uh, the party. So Chad (18:23.246) Okay. That's easy. Chad (18:31.298) She's doing that because she wants you to dance. She's going to say, Cheeseman, this is yours. This is yours so that you have to dance to this one. Joel Cheesman (18:32.403) Because I'm old. Joel Cheesman (18:37.539) Yeah. I have visions of a 22 year old saying, eh, we need some music. We have some old people, this thing, like, who should we ask about music? And they come to me, which I thought was pretty flattering yet a little bit insulting at the same time. What are you, what are you going to do about it? Maybe talk about. Chad (18:55.031) TOPICS! Joel Cheesman (18:56.783) All right, hot off the presses everybody. UK based Daxtra has acquired Indianapolis based Pivot CX. Daxtra says it's a specialist in high accuracy multilingual job and resume parsing, semantic search matching and recruitment automation. While Pivot touts itself as an all in one talent acquisition communications hub. The acquisition aims to provide a better candidate and recruiter experience. Chad (18:59.574) News break news break. Joel Cheesman (19:26.427) Founded in 2002, Daxtra employs 114 while Pivot founded in 2015, employs less than 10. Chad, your thoughts on the acquisition. Chad (19:39.786) Yeah, Pivot was work here.com. Remember that? They were work here, kind of like a geo-fenced kind of thing that, I mean, you know, it was kind of weird, kind of cool at the same time. But they pivoted out of that, changed leadership and got Pivot CX. Our favorite Steven Seagal, you know, from the HR industry actually works there, David Bernstein. And it's interesting because we're... Joel Cheesman (19:42.987) Oh, it's a long, strange trip that they've been on. Yes. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (19:56.368) Pun intended. Chad (20:09.022) in and around Indianapolis and they're from Scotland. Oh, what's happening? We just talked about Scotland. Eerie, eerie. Um, this, this reminds me of, of text colonels acquisition when they, they bought the, uh, the, the actual job bot or I can't remember the name of it where it was a chat bot. Yeah. It was, it was, it was an engagement engine, right? Uh, Daxtra's ability to find the most qualified candidates through parsing and matching technology. Joel Cheesman (20:16.047) Eerie. Joel Cheesman (20:25.387) Yeah, Job Boddy. Yeah, yeah. Chad (20:36.458) Adding that to Pivot's ability to quickly engage and increase candidate conversion rates. Then what did Terry do before he did this? Pando? Programmatic? All of this like kind of like comes together. So whether they do an acquisition of some type of programmatic tech, or they closely partner with an organization like Recruitics or something like that, I think from my standpoint, wait a minute, timeout. Did they not just, I think they. Joel Cheesman (20:45.043) Mm-hmm. Chad (21:05.91) They literally just partnered with a... Give me a second here. Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hivit CX, they just literally just. Go ahead. Joel Cheesman (21:13.371) about Daxtra ? Yeah, like a month ago. Joel Cheesman (21:22.279) So you mentioned work here. I think just for the annals of history, I think it's interesting to note what work here's model was. It was like Yelp-ish stickers on a business. So you go to like maybe the Applebee's down the street, you put a work here sticker, and then you have to download an app. Remember when companies asked you to download their app and you would actually do it. So you did that and then you would see jobs based on you're in this location or you, Chad (21:34.05) Yep. Uh huh. Chad (21:44.782) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Or you didn't. Joel Cheesman (21:52.219) downloaded it through a QR code or whatever. And then that didn't quite work out. Uh, companies didn't want stickers on their doors. They didn't want like all the questions that probably came with like, Oh, do you work here? You got jobs? Like, yeah, you got to download the list. That thing like what, why, why? Just give me, just tell me what's up. So anyway, so then it became kind of an interesting, uh, like they would go to Starbucks, for example. I don't know if they went to Starbucks, but everyone knows Starbucks and they would say, okay, Starbucks, you need people at this location on one 16th. And. Chad (22:16.428) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (22:22.035) and Simmons or something. And then they would like geotarget advertising with Facebook and like, we just want this certain area to get advertisements for this Starbucks for jobs, job fair, whatever. And that was pretty cool, but it doesn't scale very well, right? Like, okay, how many locations do you have? How much advertising? When is the job for over? You got to cancel it. So that was like kind of a pain in the ass. I think they went through some shuffling of leadership. Chad (22:25.815) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (22:50.307) Um, at one point and then came out with pivot, uh, CX.io. I can't believe the pivot CX.com wasn't available, but anyway, it wasn't. And there's like, we're just, we're just going to do messaging, uh, engagement shit and along comes Daxtra who does, I don't know, matching resume, parsing, et cetera. Now you need a way, a way to communicate with these folks. Terry Baker, we know, uh, Mike Seidel who we know. Howard Bates is there as well. There's an interesting cast of characters. Makes total sense that, well, I can search the resumes and find the people, but now how do I contact them? Well, here's snap of a button. Now you can message them, call them. They have video options as well. So it's a perfect kind of marriage. And my guess is Pivot took very little money. at all. So I think it was a really cheap acquisition. And Terry with the Wade and Wendy thing, I think he understood the importance of the communication element, not just finding the job or the candidate. So I think it was, like you said, Steven Seagal, everyone knows, I'm sure Terry was like making the calls and seeing who was available, kicking the tires. And Pivot was more than willing to have a conversation about, yeah, how do we get this thing done and get this marriage. Um, completed, my guess is that the pivot brand will go away. Uh, Seagal will, will be a sales guy for Daxtra in the near future. I don't know. Howard, I imagine we'll be there for a year to kind of. Transfer everything over. I don't see him sticking around. I see, I think Mike will stick around. Sidell. I think he'll, he'll be there for the ride. Hopefully local company, uh, maybe hopefully they jack up some, uh, money and hire some people here in the Hoosier state. Chad (24:28.138) If that. If that, yeah. Yes. Yep. Joel Cheesman (24:40.895) and put some money in the local economy. That would be nice. And yeah, it makes sense. I hope it works out. Chad (24:49.654) I just connected some dots right out of the gate because I just remembered a press release that came out, I think it was last week or earlier this week. First and foremost, Howard was, I think was the money guy, so I don't see him, he's going to take his payday and get the fuck out. They were just talking about a programmatic player. They partnered with Acquire ROI earlier this week or last week, and that's a new programmatic player in the space. Actually a new sponsor of Chad and Cheese. Joel Cheesman (24:50.632) Well, good. Chad (25:19.09) So now, if you think about it, you've got this engine, right? That is a search and match engine that can go against your database or other databases to be able to actually target individuals who are qualified for the job and then use PivotCX to start the engagement, right? So that's like the internal passive. Then you go after the active. How do you do that with Programmatic? Well, you've got Acquire ROI, who are the new kids on the block. Joel Cheesman (25:41.639) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chad (25:46.946) they want to start making some fucking waves. This is a great way to make some waves, right? Be a part of a much larger ecosystem. So this is, I think, good all the way around. Again, we saw a text kernel do something similar to this over in Europe, watching Daxtra do that with pivot CX and then also with acquire ROI from a engagement and then also a programmatic standpoint. I mean, this makes a hell of a lot more sense now. Joel Cheesman (26:14.211) Yep, the only pieces missing are a QR code generator and an ATS. Chad (26:23.35) That's why we talk about ZipRecruiter. Joel Cheesman (26:24.359) That's right. All right. We got, we got, I'm calling this the red meat block. Uh, our listeners love this, this shit. So we're going to throw it at them, throwing the meat in the cage, everybody. All right. ZipRecruiter CFO, uh, Tim Yarborough has sold what investing.com calls a quote, significant amount of company stock in quote, to the tune of over $60,000. Meanwhile, tech crunch has discovered and verified that LinkedIn is developing a new subscription service called LinkedIn. Chad (26:29.906) Okay, okay. So much meat, yes. Joel Cheesman (26:52.691) premium company page. That's a mouthful priced at potentially up to $99 a month. This service would provide AI driven content creation and advanced tools to increase follower numbers. But wait Chad, there's more work day faces allegations of a biased AI based applicant screening system. Our friends at the EEOC argue work day should be held accountable as an intermediary work day. Shocker denies the allegations. Chad (27:11.81) Holy! Joel Cheesman (27:22.551) ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, and Workday. How's that for red meat, everybody? Chad, your thoughts. Chad (27:29.73) Yeah. I mean, we talked a lot about ZipRecruiter last week, where I was calling for Ian's head. I hate to say it, but this is a brand in decline. I guess I don't have to say it. Everybody can see it and it's in serious need of new leadership and swagger. ZipRecruiter is giving zombie vibes at this moment. Um, on the, on the LinkedIn side of the house, let me repeat this from the, from the whole, uh, article that was out. This new LinkedIn service would provide AI driven content creation and advanced tools to increase follower numbers among other benefits to elevate a company's visibility. Two things, number one, this is exactly what we do not fucking need from AI, spam. A spam creation machine, no. Number two, fix the old dilapidated shit in your current system. Your basic matching to the... profile data that we have is horrible. You should be amazing at that. You suck at that. Fix the shit that's not working. They're throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall, which I normally love, but the problem is the shit that should be working, the base stuff, isn't even working. So why do I think that this has any longevity to it whatsoever? I'll let you go on that one. Then we'll start talking about workday because we've got to dig in on that one. Whoo, yeah. Joel Cheesman (28:47.987) Why should you? You take, you take a breather, take a breather and we'll get to work day. Cause I know you got some insight info from our friends at the EOC. So the ZipRecruiter thing, um, I thought it was pretty funny that investing.com called it a quote, significant amount of company stock. I mean, it wasn't a huge amount of stock. Um, 60 grand. I don't know. Maybe the dude's kid got into Dartmouth and needed a down payment or maybe the tax man. had some money. He still owns 180,000 plus shares, around $1.8 million. I'm sure he'd love for it to be more, but unfortunately, ZipRecruiter stock is going sideways in a bad way. The other side of that to me is like, why cash it in when you can get a loan against it and then you don't pay taxes on it? So do you think ultimately he thinks, well, it's not going up. Chad (29:18.702) It was a family trust. Joel Cheesman (29:44.655) So get rid of it now before it goes down to $8, $7, $6 a share. I don't make investment advice on the show, but the stock isn't going in the right direction. So cashing out on a little bit of it, um, makes sense. And of course we talked about last week, how the COO had sold a big chunk of stock back in December. So it's a trend worth watching. Uh, if Ian dumps a bunch of shares and maybe some, maybe the S you know, some other executives do it could be interesting, but yeah, not a company on the rise. Chad (30:08.863) and now gone. Joel Cheesman (30:14.259) In terms of LinkedIn, I'm not as mad about it as you are. I ain't mad at them. Look, you and I talked to a lot of startups. We advise a lot of startups. And these startups that have social media profiles everywhere that just have these dead, lifeless social media accounts, my recommendation is always like, until you get dedicated resources, pick one. And that one in our space is almost always LinkedIn. So focus on that. If they could... If they could manage better content being created that's relevant, don't spam people. I agree, there's a line there and people have to follow these companies and they can unfollow them as well if they blow them up with spam. But companies are looking for a way to keep these social media channels up and running. And if LinkedIn can plug in like, oh, hey, here's the best time to post. Chad (30:59.758) It's gonna go crazy. Joel Cheesman (31:11.995) Here's the best kind of content to post. Here's what's getting the most engagement. Like that could be a really good thing for companies, especially startups. It's also a warning letter to marketing people that don't keep their social media company sites active. Yeah, AI is coming for your job. So you better start thinking outside the box and being creative with the content that you're putting on social media. Otherwise your boss is gonna go. Chad (31:32.395) Get your shit together. Joel Cheesman (31:40.667) Gee, there's an AI that's $99 a month that can do what you're doing. So sayonara. So sayonara baby. Yeah. Sayonara. So it's a, it's a, it's, it's a little bit of a warning to marketing people. Again, it's back to AI won't take your job, but people who do know AI will. So leverage this new service the best you can with what you're currently doing, but marketing people need to up their game. Uh, if they're social media sites and most of them do have shitty. Chad (31:47.963) How much do you cost me? Yeah. Joel Cheesman (32:08.327) sucky voodoo, zombie-esque, uh, social media sites. They got to get on that. Chad (32:14.122) Yeah. Here's the thing. Uh, it was funny, I was talking to a TA practitioner today and she was talking about how much spam she gets in her in-mail. Oh, it's going to get worse kids. So to, to the workday side of the house, last week, we had a chance to spend some time with EEOC commissioner Sonderling. And let me tell you, after working with government for decades, he's a breath of fresh air, uh, because he's practical and he understands business. This case is none of that. Joel Cheesman (32:35.504) Yes. Chad (32:43.358) It's not practical or even in the line of basic understanding of what a system like Workday currently does for tens of thousands of companies. Now, I say currently because the velocity of tech is moving at work warp speed. And from my understanding, the EEOC is trying to liken Workday and its technology to a staffing agency. Why? A staffing agency performs hiring decisions for its clients. And if Workday or any other technology provider, um, did the same type of service for its clients as an embedded part of the, uh, the platform, then it could be seen in the same vein. Right. So I believe this case, um, it's going to be dismissed because the laws currently on the books specifically point to the employer having responsibility in a case like this, not the actual vendor. Joel Cheesman (33:33.212) Mm-hmm. Chad (33:39.222) but it does feel like foreshadowing, knowing proposed legislation in states like California have pulled the vendor into the accountability spotlight already and knowing tech companies are already gearing up to help in the decision making process. So this was a conversation we will be having regularly in the near future, but not about workday, not this time and not about workday. Had a chance to kind of like message back and forth with Keith about it. Joel Cheesman (33:58.741) Hmm. Chad (34:08.842) And he's in the same line of thinking, you know, uh, he, he doesn't think that, uh, this is going to be a case that's going to go far. Um, you know, but I really feel like this is literally a shot across, across vendors bow. So they need to start thinking about this. Joel Cheesman (34:24.915) Hmm. Yeah, I didn't know what to make of this because it did sound odd. It sounds like a loser. I don't think any person that knows is in the know thinks of workday as a staffing element or firm. But to me, it was to me, it felt a lot like the EOC has done very little and in regards to convictions. of AI. It's just hard. It's a black box. We talk about it with Keith and others a lot proving bias with AI is really challenging and AI is all over the news. I think there you know my initial reaction was I bet there's a lot of pressure on the EOC to do some shit about all this AI stuff that's freaking people out. And what better company bigger company to go after than a workday? Even though they know it's probably a loser, it's a great headline. And the headline does at least say, Oh, the EEOC is going after someone like workday, uh, to like, you know, get under the, get under the hood and figure out what's going on. So it makes for a good headline, which I think relieves some pressure off the EEOC. Um, I do think that it is going to wake employers up. A lot of CEOs are going to HR and saying, Hey, they're going after workday. Chad (35:43.735) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (35:52.387) Are we dotting our eyes and crossing our T's to make sure that we're not doing anything bad, like, and by the way, we're, we're using work day. Uh, are we in trouble? So I, part of me thinks it's a PR play and part of me thinks it is a, like, Hey, we can, we can get you if you fuck around, you're going to find out. And we're going to like be in the headlines, going after big company to make sure that you guys are well aware that we can come after you, but it feels like a total loser, um, like it may not even like. Chad (35:57.075) next? Joel Cheesman (36:21.723) dismissed, you said, um, I don't know if that's Keith's words or yours, but, um, I don't think it goes very far at all. It's just a good headline. Chad (36:31.95) I think the smarter companies, and again, we were in Scottsdale last week with Paradox and they were very, very clear. Our tech does not make decisions. It's process efficiency. It does a lot of things, but it does not make decisions. It helps the process and the human makes the decisions. Now you get a company like Hired Score, right? That could, prospectively, be making decisions, right? Joel Cheesman (36:55.843) Yeah. Oh. Chad (36:57.486) And again, if you start taking a look at just the framework of what a staffing company does, they make decisions on the types of individuals who are going to be put into your organization. A technology could prospectively do the same. And we've been talking about some companies being the operating system for staffing companies to be able to really rev this up. So this is going to be a conversation that's going to be carried forward. I think it is a legit conversation, maybe in about 18 months, but not with work day right now. Joel Cheesman (37:20.733) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (37:27.271) Do you think the hired score acquisition put them in the crosshairs of the EEOC? No. Chad (37:27.444) No way. Chad (37:33.674) Nah, nah, this was happening way before that happened. I think what will, what will be awesome about this is Athena and her team are geared for defensibility and explainability. So they're going to be ready for something like this. Uh, I don't see, again, I don't see work day being a problem, uh, because they have the right people in place. Joel Cheesman (37:55.291) Let's take a quick break guys. Listen to the sponsors because there is no show without the sponsors. And after you that leave a review for us on your favorite podcast platform of choice. Chad (38:00.162) Listen. Joel Cheesman (38:11.375) Power to the people. All right, Chad. Big news this week on non-competes. The federal government is not a fan, apparently, of them. That's right, the Federal Trade Commission issued a rule banning non-competes nationwide, saying the change would protect the fundamental freedom of workers to change jobs while increasing innovation and fostering new business formation. Chad, I'm guessing you're a fan, but what are your thoughts? Chad (38:14.743) There it is. Chad (38:23.169) hahahaha Chad (38:42.442) Yeah, I mean, you've probably had a non-compete before. I've had a non-compete before. You know, we're in industries where it's really hard to stay in the industry if you've had a non-compete, especially the types of positions we've been in. You know, digging into this one in five, U.S. workers are bound by contract clauses that prevent them from taking new jobs from a competitor. So the U.S. Federal Trade Commission on Tuesday issued a final rule. that bans most non-competes nationwide. The agency estimated by allowing people more freedom, the change would lead to the creation of 8,500 new businesses annually, lower healthcare costs, and as many as 29,000 more patents each year over the next decade, okay? By allowing more freedom. The thing is, Company protections have been weighing high over employee protections. We're starting to see a shift in that. And this is one of those shifts, really a redistribution in power. Joel Cheesman (39:52.215) Yes, I have signed a non-compete and yes, I have been sent letters to say like, watch your step, watch yourself. Um, I'm a crazy man, Chad. I'm crazy. I need, I need to be re reigned in sometimes. Uh, typically what happens, uh, in my experience and anecdotally is you get a new job, you're super excited and they go, Oh, here's this thing you need to sign. Oh, it just says you won't. Chad (40:01.111) It sucks. Yeah. Chad (40:08.487) Hahahaha Joel Cheesman (40:21.327) You know, compete, go to a competitor, da da. And most people like, yeah, I love this place. I'm not going anywhere. This is fantastic. Yeah. I'm making how much money? Oh yeah. Okay. Let's do that. And then, and then you want to leave, but then you think, oh, should I sign that thing that restricts me from doing it now? How many people, how many people stay at the job because, uh, they can't leave or don't think they can leave. I don't know. We'll, we'll never know those numbers. Chad (40:27.63) No big deal. Yeah. Chad (40:40.491) and you're trapped. Mm. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (40:48.807) How many companies actually follow through on the threats of the non-compete agreement? Probably very, very few. Um, it just creates a mess. It creates the company that just hired you. There's an, uh, the discomfort in that, Oh, that we hired someone. There's this agreement. Do we fight it? Like what happens? It's, it should, it should not be a thing really. Uh, I mean, Chad (41:07.566) Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman (41:14.383) there are non-compete and a non-disclosure are different things. And I like, so the agreement of you shouldn't go work for a competitor versus you can go work for the competitor. But the minute we find out you're giving trade secrets or you're, you know, stealing, uh, hiring, yeah, poaching. Like those, those are, you know, those are different things, but you shouldn't restrict this America, Jack. Uh, you shouldn't make you shouldn't. Chad (41:31.758) hiring people away from us. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (41:42.235) You shouldn't restrict where people can go work. Yeah. And, and, um, the, if you think about this is off the table, it will create a really interesting dynamic with people leaving companies, starting companies. That's another one too, is like, I'd love to start a competitor, but I can't cause I signed this non-compete thing. Um, competition is good for business. Uh, that's going to be a positive. More people are hired out of startups than more established companies. So it's a good thing. Now what I. Chad (41:44.398) This is un-American. Anti-freedom. Joel Cheesman (42:10.383) What I told you on our ATAP conversation is sort of my knee jerk reaction. I think it's true. Chamber of commerce is going to fight this, uh, tooth and nail. It's going to go to, it's going to go to a higher court more than likely. Um, the Supreme court is a right leaning court. Is it more business friendly? You could argue yes. Uh, in that case, where does that, where does, where does the decision go? But I think most, most Americans think, yes, you should be able to go wherever you want, you can't tell secrets. You can't. Chad (42:20.406) Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Joel Cheesman (42:39.983) like do certain things, but you shouldn't be restricted to, Oh, you can't get a job in the restaurant industry because you worked at a restaurant. Like that's just kind of silly in my mind. So I hope it passes. It's in for a long legal fight. But I think the, you know, the just the, the arc of justice will bend in the right direction when, when all is said and done on this one. Chad (43:05.73) Well, I mean, the working class has been negatively impacted by this. Employee treatment, why treat employees well? Why you don't have to if they feel like they're trapped, right? Obviously, you are from a productivity standpoint, but companies really haven't focused on productivity. Um, suppressed rate wages, it makes it easier for you not to get paid more. And I've mentioned this several times and I'll mention it again. CEO pay has soared. It has gone. Joel Cheesman (43:13.019) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chad (43:33.938) 1200% higher since 1978 to today versus typical workers rates of 15.3%, right? There are all these different things that are in place that are allowing those things to happen because workers feel like they're trapped. If they don't feel like they're trapped anymore, a lot of things can happen. Higher innovation rates, better pay, and not to mention we're in a space right now in America. There's this huge division and it's like we're not a society that's a community anymore. That's because there are a lot of people that are in poverty. If we can help them go maybe start their own company, maybe go to another company, maybe get paid more, et cetera, et cetera, people become more happy that way when they feel like they're free. And today, if you like to try. Joel Cheesman (44:22.247) Sure, sure. And CEOs, you mentioned, they're actually more likely to, you know. to go against their non-compete because they can afford to fight it. And typically the company that hires a new CEO will say, yes, we'll back you on your non-compete in fighting it. Whereas the average line manager doesn't have that option. They're just kind of trapped and they certainly shouldn't be. Well, non-competes to hell with them. In other news, the US Department of Labor raised the salary threshold for overtime eligibility for salaried workers affecting millions. Chad (44:35.078) Eject. Yep. Joel Cheesman (45:01.319) Threshold will increase to $43,888 in July and $58,656 in 2025. Employers and trade associations expressed concerns about increased cost and potential job losses. Chad, your thoughts on raising the salary threshold for overtime salaries. Chad (45:23.266) This is another one of the mechanisms that were used to keep wages low. CEO wages to the moon 1200%, you know, and then we're bumping around like 15.3%. So yes, moving positions to salary was one of the quick and easy cheat codes to fucking over employees. Give them a bigger title, a salary, slight increases over their hourly wages, and then make them work 60. Joel Cheesman (45:40.484) Yep. Chad (45:50.482) 80 hours a week without the overtime. So acting labor secretary, Julie Sue said in a statement, quote, too often lower paid salary workers are doing the same job as the hour, their hourly counterparts, but they are spending more time away from their families for no additional pay. End quote. Again, we're on this big blue ball. One time kids got to spend it with the people that we love. Not saying that we don't like people at work, but we've got. things to do, go get your feet in the sand, go enjoy time with your family. And doing this and not getting the pay, the salary pay. Again, this is about happiness and these types of moves are going to make people more happy. Joel Cheesman (46:35.523) I know I for one can't stand my coworker, but that's a different podcast altogether. Uh, you're right. Look, employers, employers are always, yeah. Thank God for that. Uh, employers are always looking for ways to skirt the rules, stick it to the man, if you will, uh, stick it to the little guy. Uh, and this is the way to do it. Like we'll put, we don't want to pay you more as an hourly. We'll make you a salaried employee and all the benefits that come with being a salaried employee. Oh, you got to work late again. Chad (46:43.009) You're not with me 40 hours a week, that's for damn sure. Joel Cheesman (47:05.295) But you're not an hourly employee, so your salary doesn't move. It's sort of a dirty game. I'm not saying all employers do that. According to this release, about 4 million workers are impacted by this new law positively. What I think is interesting is that they're saying that the income transfer from employer to employee is going to be to the tune of about $1.5 billion a year and you and I both know that historically if money goes in the hands of working people, it goes right back into the economy in the form of services and goods. If it sticks in the realm of the employer, it gets hidden away in savings, whatever. To me, I think this could be a really interesting injection of activity in the economy where this money goes right back into goods and services. I think that's something that a lot of people aren't thinking about. Chad (47:42.839) Yes. Chad (47:47.522) It's all good. Joel Cheesman (48:02.939) when we're giving money back to the working class. So good for the economy, good for those folks, and probably not all that bad for the employers, by the way. Well, and more news in the Power to the People block chat and a historic victory for the UAW, nearly three quarters of Volkswagen workers in Chattanooga, Tennessee voted to unionize, marking the first successful auto factory unionization in the South. Chad (48:14.837) Not at all. Joel Cheesman (48:32.375) Since the 1940s, this win caps off a strong year for the US labor market, which has seen increased support and organizing victories across various industries. The UAW aims to use this momentum to continue its organizing effort into the South, including at Mercedes-Benz facilities in Alabama. Chad, your thoughts. Chad (48:56.954) Yeah, Sean Fain has a message. He's actually speaking directly to the laborers and he's winning. We just talked about the again, CEO pay. That's what he's talking about. He's talked about specifically CEO pay. Why are they getting these huge raises and you guys are getting fucked and you're getting and you're paying and you're working harder for the same pay, right? So, I mean, this is all about fairness. Plus, I thought was interesting. Biden jumped on the train very quickly and he chimed in and said quote Let me be clear to the Republican governors that tried to undermine this vote There is nothing to fear from American workers using their own voice and their legal right to form a union if they so choose End quote on the back of that win for unions Biden also won the endorsement of the North America building trade union association. So After decades of employees getting fucked over, CEO pay skyrocketing while American workers accept poverty wages, trapped in jobs with non-competes, forced to work overtime without getting paid for overtime, it feels like the American worker is finally, are we getting our time? Is the time happening, Joel? Ha ha ha. Joel Cheesman (50:13.04) I'm out. Joel Cheesman (50:16.339) We're getting our time. And as one of our guests said, it's a five-year holiday from the robots taking over everything, which may or may not be true. I guess we'll find out at some point. Yeah, look, I was shocked. You know I was shocked when Detroit succumbed to, when the UAW won in Detroit, I was shocked. And frankly, that it's heading south, I'm not as shocked. Like it was a big win, winning is contagious and more and more workers are seeing what's happening in Detroit. And they want that. They want a little piece of that in the South and the West. And then even in Texas, they want a little bit of that. And, and Elon Musk, I'm sure is scared to death. I don't know if you saw what, you know, Tesla, Tesla's up too, but, uh, things are a little challenged at Tesla. So the last thing Elon wants is a union. Chad (50:57.762) Don't blame them. Joel Cheesman (51:09.175) Uprising, but this is the world we live in and this is a trend that's going to keep going and going and car companies and everyone needs to think about it. And look, even you mentioned some other news outside of that. We shared a story about Samsung and the six-day work week at Samsung for thought jobs or knowledge-based jobs. You look at Google rolling back requirements that US suppliers and staffing firms pay their employees at in a move to avoid bargaining with unions. So even companies that we don't necessarily think of as union caring are now suddenly thinking about the unions. And Samsung, like six days a week, why? I don't know. In Europe, they're giving robots days off for God's sakes. Like let's make the humans work more and we're gonna give robots some time off. So it's a trend you gotta root for, I think, no matter where you are. Politically like people that have been sucking it for a long time or finally getting their due and I think it's a good thing Chad (52:11.822) Yeah. Amen. Joel Cheesman (52:14.643) We'll be right back. Joel Cheesman (52:19.379) Can I get a little fast food news for my final block on the show? All right. Chick Chick-fil-A employee at Mary the siren was told by the chains PR team to stop posting tip talk reviews. She then partnered with Shake Shack with her first post getting over 865,000 views. The partnership coincided with Shake Shack's chicken Sundays campaign. In case you missed it. Chick-fil-A is closed. Chad (52:24.817) I think you're gonna get it. I think you're gonna get it, yeah. Joel Cheesman (52:48.727) on Sundays. Mary gained over 50,000 TikTok followers since starting her reviews in January, totaling over 105,000 followers today. Chad, your thoughts on this chicken battle? Chad (53:03.398) Okay, we're gonna we're gonna play this TikTok first and then and then we'll come back Joel Cheesman (53:18.343) That is a good looking sandwich. Chad (53:19.042) Juicy Chicken. Chad (53:33.454) Look at that chicken. Chad (53:37.362) Okay. I can't cause it's, it's almost, it's almost lunch and I, I can't do anymore. Um, Oh yeah, the review was eight minutes and I mean, Jesus chicken be damned. What idiots. And this isn't, this isn't a new story at all for all of you, Chad and cheese veteran listeners. You will remember our lightning in a paint can episode back in 2020. Joel Cheesman (53:41.19) The review is eight minutes, is that right? Chad (54:02.198) where we talked to Tony Pilsino, a former Sherwin Williams employee and TikTok superstar who was fired from Sherwin Williams for posting paint mixing videos. People were loving watching the Sherwin Williams payment and it got fired. So I'm sure Sherwin Williams, they couldn't even spell TikTok back in 2020. But four years later, everyone knows TikTok and you have an influencer under your own roof who's pimping. Jesus Chicken for free? I mean, come on, man. Joel Cheesman (54:33.479) Well, first of all, for Shake Shack. Joel Cheesman (54:39.111) Like phase one of this, like you mentioned, Sherwin Williams dumps a dude with millions of views on how to mix paints and shit. Like what he's doing now is he started his own little paint thing or something. Like if this had happened today, let's hope that Lowe's or whoever the hell else sells paint would be like, oh, we're happy to bring you into the TikTok fold over here at Lowe's until it's banned by Congress in a few weeks. But good on. Chad (54:53.622) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (55:08.015) Shake Shack for realize, you know, seeing an opportunity and grabbing it. Um, and the whole, the whole closed on Sunday thing to me, I'm shocked that no one sort of picked up on that because chicken sandwiches are huge, right? Popeyes everyone's dropping chicken sandwiches and Shake Shack. This probably isn't their brand, but if, like Burger King should have done like, uh, the hell's chicken sandwich. like only available on Sunday to kind of stick it to Chick-fil-A. But talking about chicken, Chad, I don't know if you saw Chipotle's earnings this week, but they are crushing it. But the out past or chicken, I don't know if you've tried this stuff. It's amazing. They they're selling so much of it that they're telling their employees, like don't have the chicken as your free meal because we're selling so much goddamn chicken. Chipotle is what I'm talking about, Chad. And if you can't get behind that cluck, I don't know what kind of cluck you can get behind. We out. Chad (56:19.374) We out.

Welcome to the “HAPPY REBELS,” episode a no-holds-barred journey through the chaotic, snark-filled corridors of human resources with the fearless Rika Coppens at the helm. As CEO of House of HR, Rika tears down conventional walls, sometimes literally, all while her company pulls in cool billions. Want to learn how to balance being a Happy Rebel and a powerhouse CEO? Or maybe just figure out whether chatbots are killing your vibe more than your operational inefficiencies? Dive into the depths of European HR like never before, from the comfort of your own headphones. Forget the bland and the boring—here, it’s all about shocking stats, bold strategies, and a sprinkle of HR snark, because who says employment strategies have to be dry? Not us, and certainly not Rika. Buckle up; it’s going to be a rebelliously enlightening ride! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Podcast Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcasts. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up, everybody? It is Rutger Howard's favorite podcast. Chad: Wow. Joel: AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined, as always, the red light to my district, Chad Sowash, as we welcome Rika Coppins, CEO of House of HR, to the show live from the E-recruitment Conference in beautiful Amsterdam. Is it Amsterdam, Holland? Is it Amsterdam, the Netherlands? I don't even know exactly. Rika Coppens: Officially, it's the Netherlands. Holland is a part of the Netherlands, actually. Joel: So is it Amsterdam, the Netherlands? Rika Coppens: Yes. Joel: Okay. We'll roll with that. Chad: There you go. Joel: Rika, welcome to the podcast again. Rika Coppens: Thank you so much for having me and thank you for being here at the E-recruitment Congress. Joel: Our pleasure. Our pleasure. So some of our listeners won't know you. There's kind of a lot to introduce here. Introduce yourself, introduce House of HR quickly, and introduce the Congress that we are at currently. Rika Coppens: Okay, very good. Well, my name is Rika Coppens. I'm the CEO since 2017 of House of HR. I used to be a CFO and then I entered into this famous or infamous space of HR, which I really love. It's dealing with human beings and I think that's what we like at House of HR. When we talk about House of HR, we're a collection of 50 brands and companies, all involved in the world of staffing or engineering and consulting. Very specialized, very focused on the candidate and customer experience. And we actually say HR stands for Happy Rebel. And that's what really sets us apart from everyone, because we always try to do different stuff. We try to, when everyone goes left, we wanna go right. And that's a little bit the mentality we have. And I think it's in that context we are organizing this E-recruitment Congress for everyone. Joel: How big is the footprint now? Rika Coppens: So house of HR today we are at 3.4 billion euro revenues in Europe mostly in... Joel: Love the transparency. Chad: Hello. Joel: Love the transparency. Chad: Hello. Joel: I was talking about regionally... Rika Coppens: Originally, okay. Joel: Like what countries we're talking about if you want to talk money... Chad: She's dropping the big bomb, I love it. Joel: The CFO goes right to the dollars. I love it. Rika Coppens: But we're in Belgium, Holland, France, Germany, and we also have branches in Spain, Portugal, and also in Eastern European countries. Chad: Oh, Portugal. Oh, lovely. Rika Coppens: Yeah, very nice. So we're spread over there. And as I said, our revenue has grown quite quickly. We're now at 3.4 billion euros, but a lot more profitable than the big staffers because, we do things specialized and we try to get close in terms of understanding candidates and customers' needs. And I think that's really what sets us apart from everyone else. Chad: Well, that's one thing. But I think one of the things that you've taught Joel and I as we started this relationship is that, there's a thing called a branded house. And then there's a house of brands. And you guys are a house of brands. Rika Coppens: Indeed. Chad: And in Europe, that to me, in what we've seen thus far, just allows more of that natural, state of being, as opposed to getting kicked out, like Stepstone got kicked out of France. Rika Coppens: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Chad: Because they're a German brand. And they went into France. They're like, no, get the hell out of there. You guys keep that brand, you keep the founders in many cases, the CEOs. I mean, there's really this culture that is much different than we see in the US where it's like bring everything under one brand. It's cheaper, it's more efficient. You guys have really figured that out. Rika Coppens: It's bullshit because that's actually one plus one is one strategy. That's what I call you pay a lot of money to buy a company. And then basically what you do is we buy goodwill on legs. The people run away. And so if the people don't like you as the acquirer of a company. Chad: Which we see a lot. Rika Coppens: Which is actually, in most of the cases, what's exactly happening. You try to change the culture. You're forcing the culture down. You're forcing systems, IT systems, computer systems on people. They don't like it. They say everything was better in the old days. And then they run away. And then they start up their own company. They talk to your customers and they run away. And that's what we try to prevent. And I think we're succeeding in that and trying to, the companies that we acquire, we're basically listening to them, asking them, what is it that you need from us? And then trying to help them with what they need from us and then make them grow in that way. And I think it's a much stronger proposition for founders. Chad: The thing is that generally that whole idea, that paradigm, it's hard to keep ahead of, right? And you and the entire group are really focused on innovation. So was that like the key to ensure that you don't get into atrophy and you don't just kind of like dwindle all the way, that you really focus on all brands as their own brand, but under House of HR and innovation is the biggest key. Rika Coppens: Innovation, obviously, also we help them with administrative processes and support, but indeed innovation is one of the key things where we try, especially to inspire each other, because we're all more or less in the same business. We're all dealing with candidates. We're all dealing with customers. So the idea is really that the brands amongst themselves and the founders and the people in the different companies, in the different functions, they inspire each other. And then we exchange best practices. And from those best practices, that's where the innovation comes from, because someone says, oh, I have a great idea. And then the second thing I think that I mentioned the Happy Rebel thing, and it sounds like, oh, it's just one of those things that you shout out and blah, blah. Rika Coppens: But it's really a culture that lives inside House of HR. We love to destroy ourselves. It's really something that we constantly ask ourselves, what is it that can kill House of HR? What is it that can kill your brand? And that's how NOWJOBS came about. Indeed, that's how we started NOWJOBS. But actually, NOWJOBS started in 2017 after asking that question, how to kill Accent, which was our first brand. And now we recently organized a workshop, how to kill NOWJOBS. So, I mean, this thing is continuing. So really, we're constantly trying to ask ourselves the question, what is our right of being here? And are we still entitled to exist as a company? And if not, then we need to try to invent something else. And I think this is also the spirit of the E-recruiting Congress is that we don't mind that competitors are here. Everyone is invited. We really give them insights in how we function and the technologies we use. And we really want everyone to know about it. And then probably it's also challenging us to continuously stay ahead of everyone else. Joel: Yeah. Separate brands, but there's unification in the Congress that we are currently attending. Rika Coppens: Yeah. Joel: Why do the show? Why have other people come in that aren't part of House of HR? Chad: Competitors. Joel: Yeah. What? Just talk about the genesis of this conference, where you see it going in the future, because I've been, this is my third or fourth one. It's out of Belgium this year, so you're obviously growing, extending the brand. Why do it and where is it going? Rika Coppens: I think first of all, it's challenging ourselves, right? I mean, organizing this Congress, it's getting us really out of our comfort zone and we say that's where the magic happens. So getting ourselves out of our comfort zone, constantly having our eyes and ears open about what's happening in the HR and recruiting world, but also outside of the HR and recruiting world, what could be actually impacting our business that we see in other businesses. And it's forcing us to keep our eyes and ears open so that we truly understand what's happening. And then inviting the best speakers to continue to challenge us, I think, is the second thing. We like to be challenged, by giving that knowledge also to competitors or people outside of House of HR, we know that they can also bring valuable ideas. And I mean, it's also a little bit about steal with pride. And so we don't mind also that it's better to steal good than to invent bad. And then this is also helping us to achieve that. So we invite competitors. They also give us feedback. And from that, we learn again. Joel: And where's it going? Rika Coppens: Oh, that's a very good question. I think we're... Chad: To the moon. Rika Coppens: To the moon and back. Joel: When's the American Congress coming? Rika Coppens: Oh, yeah, I think House of HR, we're a European-based company still, so we're going... Chad: I love her focus. I love her focus. Joel: Me too. Rika Coppens: Yeah, we're staying in Europe for the moment. I think there's plenty of opportunities in Europe still. We love the complexity of Europe in a way, because the complexity of Europe is also helping us deliver better service and more value add to the customers, which leads also to our profitability. I think once we are satisfied with where we are in Europe, then maybe we'll make the step to the US. Joel: By the way, the trail of dead leading from Europe to America is not pretty. Rika Coppens: Oh, yes. Chad: She's paying attention. She's paying attention. Joel: I know she is. I know she is. Chad: So as we take a look at Europe, right, and it is so different country by country, but also job by job. And we were just talking about being able to really engage with chatbots, right? And you found that there was an area that you thought would actually work, but it didn't. So you're constantly trying new things out. Can you tell us about that? Rika Coppens: Yeah. So at some point we invested in chatbot technology ourselves. It was five years ago and we launched it in our own companies. We sold it internally. Again, people had to buy it and they had to be motivated to use it. And, the complexity was it was mostly for blue-collar roles. Chad: Gotcha. Rika Coppens: That we use it with very simple questions, with must-haves and nice-to-haves. And so we got a feed of candidates. And then the difficulty was, first of all, to reach the candidates. Because at some point, some of them filled out the questionnaire. But then when you said, okay, now we are going to schedule an interview, they were unreachable, impossible to get hold of. So that actually demotivated a lot of our recruiters. So the second step was, okay, let's not put it in the day-to-day operations. Let's put it in a separate digital cell, whose only job is to contact the digitally generated candidates that we have and who can deal with the disappointment because it's kind of their role to deal with the disappointment. And it's not interfering with their day-to-day operations where customers come in and what have you. Rika Coppens: So then they did it. We had slightly better results because they were more focused, but still, they then did the interviews and then it was very difficult, and we still have that today, to get the recruiters to have those pre-screened candidates to accept them as their candidates. And it's still one of the struggles that we have today is that you have pre-screened candidates, that you get a fully filled out form, CV, all the skills are there. We say this is a top-notch candidate. We then send it to the recruiter who does the matching with the customer, and still they feel it's not my candidate. Rika Coppens: And this is a human thing where you feel that there has to be this connection between the candidate and the recruiter before they are willing to take a leap of faith to present that candidate to the customer. And that's a human thing that we need to overcome. And that's something that we're really working very hard on to get that mentality change. Like, listen, this is a perfect candidate. We've done the screening for you. You can trust it. Please, present it to your customers. So this is what was also today in some of the sessions, AI, it's not only about the machine, but it's also about your organization and the mentality change that you need to get into people. Chad: So this to me sounds a lot like a marketing qualified lead, that marketing would pass on to sales and sales would just eat up. They would say, that's mine, right? Hot lead. But you're saying recruiters are like, oh, I'm not really sure about this. Really? See, that just tells the evolution that we need to go through in our industry. I think a lot has to do with education and demonstrating, hey, other industries are doing this and they're kicking ass and taking names. You could too. Rika Coppens: Yeah. So it's indeed, it's about education. It's about information and making sure that we show successes of this, that what is in it for me, this is really things that we need to teach internally. And that will lead to acceptance. And we're not there yet. And I think like it is with a lot of things, adoption sometimes with the chatbot, maybe we were just too early, right? It's like with coffee shops in fuel stations. BP started it in 2000. No one went to buy coffee in a fuel station. Today, everyone does. So it's also about acceptance. Like, okay, there's also good quality coffee now in fuel stations. No one trusted that. Chad: Yeah. Just not sushi. Just not sushi. Rika Coppens: No, not yet. Joel: No fish. Rika Coppens: But we might get there. We might get there. Joel: No fish. Rika Coppens: We might get there. Joel: No fish. So we won't be expecting you to come to America anytime soon. Chad: Maybe vacation. Rika Coppens: But we bring America to Europe. Joel: The American money is something that you are interested in. Bain Capital invested in you a year or two ago, I believe. What is that infusion of capital meant to you? I know acquisitions or looking at companies to take in your fold has been part of your focus. But what else has the capital meant to the business? Rika Coppens: I think Bain, first of all, comes with a lot of experience, right? So they know a lot about investments and they know a lot about how can you improve businesses and how can you also market your businesses better so that investors trust and believe in what you're doing and can take you to the next step. So I think this is the first thing they bring. They bring a lot of knowledge. They bring a lot of know-how of how things should be done in our business and how to present our company. Access to capital definitely is an important one because half of our growth historically has always come from organic growth and the other half from acquisitions. So helping us detect acquisitions, identify acquisitions that could fit House of HR, and then onboard those acquisitions. I think that's the second thing. And obviously, also the financing that comes with it, to continue to grow parts that we've been on. That's what they bring. Chad: So what has really blown your mind today? Anything? Anything that... Joel: Takeaways. Chad: Yes. Rika Coppens: Takeaways, takeaways. I think a lot of things of course, but when it comes to AI in the sense that you have to be careful, there are things that you need to be in terms of bias and stuff like that. So we need to be careful with AI, implementing it, especially when humans are involved. On the other hand, I think the main takeaway is, things are moving very fast and the train has already left the station. And I think if as a company, especially in HR, if you haven't jumped on the train, there is a big chance that you'll miss it. And so we really need to think differently about how to incorporate AI technology in our day-to-day operations from an efficiency point of view, but also from a business model point of view. And I think we really need to speed things up because it will move very fast and it can change businesses rapidly, especially in our space. Chad: Talk about risk tolerance because, I mean, you can take a lot of risk, right, and then fall down right in front of everybody. Yes, that's how innovators actually work, but your clients aren't innovating that fast, which is one of the reasons why they look toward you, right? How do you actually balance that risk tolerance piece, not just for yourself, but also for your clients? Rika Coppens: I think, first of all, the advantage we have as House of HR is that we have so many brands. So we can experiment in a small corner and no one notices when we go flat face. So that's a big advantage. Second thing is also that, we do have customers in a lot of different spaces and some are more advanced than others and some are more open to new stuff. So we try to identify those and it's always those early adopters that we try to work things out with and find out if they would be open to experiment with us. And then the same for candidates. But that's also how NOWJOBS started. Also a little bit fake it till you make it, is how NOWJOBS started. It looked like an app in the beginning and as if everything was done digitally, but in the background, we had people riding bikes to put on the electricity. [laughter] So you also have to experiment and be a real entrepreneur. And I think this is the biggest danger also for House of HR, becoming bigger. Is that you try to do things too well. And if you try to set up an experiment, but all of a sudden you get security officers and you get programmers and architects. Joel: Nothing gets done. Rika Coppens: Nothing gets done and you get paralyzed. And so we need to allow in House of HR in those small corners to really look at it in a very entrepreneurial way and say like, how would a startup deal with this? Someone with no money. How would they set this up? And then start from there, and then gradually learn and fail and learn and fail, and then take it from there. Joel: Paralysis by analysis, I think is what they call it. Chad: Analysis paralysis, yes. Joel: In America, we're a little bit spoiled economically. I want you to give the listeners a sense of the economy in Europe. Germany seems to be in recession. UK seems to be struggling. France, Italy, down the line. Talk about the European economy from your point of view and how that's impacting the business. Rika Coppens: But Germany, I think, is one of the biggest engines of European economy. So the fact that they're struggling is trickling down in all the surrounding countries, especially also Belgium and Holland, who are mainly export countries towards Germany. I think France is doing not too bad. I think Macron has done quite a good job in getting France a little bit more liberalized in a way and making it a more industry friendly country. And you see that also in the balance. In terms of politics, where Merkel was really strong in Germany, now with Merkel gone, you see that actually the power has shifted to France. Rika Coppens: So I think they're not doing too bad. From our point of view, the good thing is that given that we are in so many different businesses with so many different profiles, you can clearly see that high skilled, white collar jobs, they are still going very strong. You still see the demand there. The scarcity of talent is still the main driver of demand and is still driving revenue. But you do see, especially in Germany, that's where we see the biggest struggle. I think the other countries, they are kind of, it's not growing fast, but they're kind of getting through the recession calmly. But Germany is where we see the biggest struggle for the moment. And let's hope that as from Q2, Q3, we start to see also some recovery over there because that will hit us really bad again, the scarcity. I think it will come back also with a vengeance. Joel: Is it an acquisition opportunity? Are you seeing companies strained and possible acquisitions? Rika Coppens: I think acquisition landscape is a bit slower. So there's a lot of companies preparing for sale, but I think most of them are a little bit in waiting mode to see, okay, what is '24 going to do? Joel: In limbo. Rika Coppens: We had the elections in Holland at the end of last year. We now have elections in Belgium in June. There's the US election. So there is some uncertainty going on. And I think '24, therefore, there are a lot of companies preparing and they're kind of hoping that 2023 performance will continue to be there. And I think probably second half of this year, we will see more companies again popping up for acquisitions. Joel: You'll let us know when those acquisitions. Rika Coppens: We'll definitely do that. Chad: How much of an impact does the presidential election in the US have on business here? Is there like pins and needles kind of waiting to see what the hell those idiots do across the pond? Joel: Or is it full steam ahead? Rika Coppens: Yeah, the election is not the impact, right? I think it will be more who wins the election that will give us an impact potentially in terms of what will be the attitude of the US versus Europe and how will, for example, the support be for Ukraine in terms of the war against Russia and how much uncertainty is that gonna bring on Europe? I think that's going to be the biggest question mark post-election and depending on who's winning it. Last Sunday, we had President Obama coming to Belgium. Chad: Oh, wow. Rika Coppens: So there's a supernova innovation and tech conference going on there. And yeah, I think he's also a bit scared about what the December outcome could be in terms of the attitude towards Europe. And I think Europe has now finally maybe woken up a little bit more. I think we've been too naive in thinking that US support would be there eternally. And now, obviously, we need to speed up in terms of defense spending. But it's a lot of things going on at the same time, right? There is spending for defense. There's spending on climate neutrality. Chad: Pulling out of Russian oil. I mean, there's just so many different layers. Rika Coppens: So many things going on for the moment. Joel: America is here for you, Rika. Rika Coppens: Oh, okay. Joel: America is here for you. Chad: At least these two Americans. Rika Coppens: Yeah. I know you'll advocate for us. Joel: American business is here for you, for sure. Rika Coppens: Very good. Joel: For sure. Curious your thoughts. This is a digital focus conference, innovation. And you guys, obviously manage a lot of job sites and employment sites. How do you see innovation changing how job seekers find a job in the future? Rika Coppens: I really liked Bill this morning who said that it's not gonna be job seekers finding jobs, but it's gonna be jobs finding the job seekers. And I firmly believe in that. I think that if you can get the right job to someone, at the right moment, I think this is what we should focus on much more. And indeed telling someone like, we know what your next step should be. And we can really help you build your career and give much more value to the candidates in that sense. I think this is going to be the way forward. So in a way, we should reverse job boards in the other way around and actually ask candidates more what job they would want to do instead of posting jobs and asking candidates to apply. Joel: So our listeners are aware of Cardboard Chad. You may not be, but our listeners are. Chad: Where is this going? Joel: And now we have digital twin Lieven, our listeners know Lieven, we got to meet digital twin Lieven. Chad: He speaks very good english. Rika Coppens: Yes, his english is impeccable. Joel: I'm not sure where my line of questioning goes other than will digital Lieven haunt your dreams going forward? Chad: He will mine. I know that, Jesus. Joel: Look, thoughts on, digital Lieven, should we expect more of him in digital format? Rika Coppens: Well, I think it... Joel: Was that his idea or yours? Rika Coppens: It was actually my idea. Joel: Oh, so we've no one to blame but you. Rika Coppens: Because I said, it would be great to have a digital avatar on stage and people could ask questions. Chad: And you notice it wasn't her, though. She's like, Lieven go do this. Joel: She knows how to spread the wealth. It's not about me. It's about you guys. Rika Coppens: But because of legislation, actually, we said it's probably not yet a good idea to have a digital avatar somewhere out there without having any certainty what it can be used for. Yeah. And the digital avatar is somewhere on a platform. And we don't know whoever gets that avatar in hands, what they could do with it and what they could make me say at some point. So I said, it's probably not a good idea if it's me. So then Lieven said, you know what? I'm already out there. You can abuse me. And so, happy to be abused. And so that's what we did. I know there's a lot of things going on. And I truly believe that intellectual property around digital avatars is something that should come into place really quickly, rather sooner than later. Chad: God, I hope so. Rika Coppens: I know this Belgian guy, Chris Ume, who participated in America's Got Talent. He was this Belgian guy who did, what's the guy's name in the Jury? Joel: Simon Cowell's the only one I know for the show. Rika Coppens: That's the one. Simon Cowell. Chad: Howie Mandel's the other one. Rika Coppens: And Heidi Klum, they were at some point on stage because he created their digital avatar. And so that was the spectacle. But he's working now with his company on putting an IP legislation in place so that avatars actually belong to you as a person. And then everyone who's trying to use your avatar has to pay money. Joel: Got to pay. So you mentioned Amsterdam is your favorite European city. What is your favorite thing to do in Amsterdam? Rika Coppens: My favorite thing to do in Amsterdam? It's a good question, actually. I think it's just stroll in the Nine Streets. There is this area here, this neighborhood, which is called the Nine Streets, and it's really gorgeous. It has nice shops, but it also has a very nice atmosphere, and you're strolling along the canals, and that's my favorite thing to do. Chad: That is amazing. Joel: Chad and I will be in the red light district. You can be on the Nine Streets or whatever that is. Chad: Speak for yourself. Joel: That's another one in the can, Rika Coppens. For those that want to know more about you or connect to the company, where do you send them? [applause] Rika Coppens: Well, you can go on my LinkedIn. I always respond to all the messages you send me. So it's just Rika Coppens, House of HR. And my email address is rika.coppens@houseofhr.com. Joel: There you go. Mention Chad and Cheese. That's another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Podcast Outro: Thank you for listening to what's it called? The podcast. The Chad. The Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar blue nacho Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It is so weird. We out.

In this episode, Desiree Goldey, director, talent operations & culture at ZRG Partners, dives into the transformation of talent acquisition (TA) from a cost center to a revenue driver. She underscores the pivotal role of data in showcasing TA's contribution to revenue growth through metrics like cost per hire and quality of hire. Goldey emphasizes the need for HR and TA to collaborate closely with other departments, such as marketing, to enhance overall efficiency. She also touches on the impact of automation on recruiting processes and the future of HR in a more automated and flexible landscape. Goldey advocates for updating outdated processes and embracing a hybrid work model for better talent management. She concludes with a call for data-driven decision-making in HR and TA, especially in diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Joel Cheesman (00:30.184) Yeah, it's Caitlin Clark's favorite podcast aka the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always the Lisa Leslie to my Sue Bird Chad. So wash is in the building and we welcome Desiree Goldie, director, talent operations and culture at ZRG don't call them Zerg partners Desiree welcome to the podcast. Chad (00:35.78) Thank you. Desiree Goldey (00:53.856) Welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Glad to be here. Joel Cheesman (00:58.216) Thank you. So a lot of our listeners don't know you, may not know ZRG partners. Let's get a taste about Desiree and just a little bit about the company before we get into the real business. Chad (01:03.652) Oh. Desiree Goldey (01:08.616) Yeah, I mean we could do this for forever talking about me. But I will give you the short, I can do the short bio. I do work for ZRG, which is a global talent advisory firm. So I want to explain a little bit about that. That just means that we handle all things talent, executive search, interim placement, consulting, and culture, and embedded recruiting, which is a division that I work for. Joel Cheesman (01:14.568) Me too. Desiree Goldey (01:35.524) So come to us where all your talent needs. Joel Cheesman (01:38.024) So you're saying Zerg goes pretty deep it sounds like. Okay, good. Desiree Goldey (01:41.604) Oh yeah. Bizarres. Yeah. So yeah, it's a pretty deep situation over here. It's great though. It's great. Yeah. Chad (01:50.532) So you're on the RPO side of the house. How big is the organization in total? Desiree Goldey (01:55.492) In total, ZRG is about 600 people. Yeah, so huge presence. I would say the biggest presence is an executive search. They went around the globe to acquire some companies, including ours, which was originally Hub recruiting. So. Chad (02:13.284) Gotcha. Gotcha. Well today, Denise or Desiree is, uh, she's coming to us to talk about how a broken system needs to be fixed, or maybe we're just going to talk about broken systems. Hell, I don't know. We'll find out. So Desiree, we had a, we had a great chat, kind of like green worm, great chat around, around this. Um, and being on the, and I always say this, that RPO and staffing looks at this. as a business, because it is, right? It's the business of talent where talent acquisition looks at it as a job. So we want to have a discussion today around how we can start to kind of like push more of the, the, the business mindset toward talent acquisition. And is that something that ZRG has been doing for years? Is this something that's new? Are you trying to help TA better understand the business? so that they can go ask for more budget. What really was the impetus of the push for this? Desiree Goldey (03:17.732) Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think in embedded recruiting, we're always talking about it, right? Because at the end of the day, we have to justify you bringing us on, right? So because we are we are another cost to you. But at the end of the day, what we go in and we try to figure out how we you can speak to your leaders about making this a revenue source that works for you and becoming a revenue center, improving that through data. So it's always been a mission. Chad (03:32.194) Mm. Chad (03:46.916) Wow, so let's go deep on that one. How you can start to show revenue growth. How do you usually start off with that? Because for the most part, talent acquisition, HR, I don't know how many CHROs. I've actually had, they've said to me, oh well, we're a cost center. CHROs, they say that they're a cost center. So how do you get them out of the mindset? Where do you start at? Where's the first step? Desiree Goldey (03:49.38) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (04:13.572) Yeah, for me, it's always talking to them about. what is happening within your talent acquisition team or your HR department, because I mean, how many recruiters just sit in HR, what's happening that's making the team more costive, showing more productivity and cost -effective to the business? If I fill a position in one day less, I've saved that company. an extreme amount of money, it's just proven in data. But the first part is always figuring out if they're even collecting the data, right? You know, we get into so many of these organizations, they're not even collecting the right things, right? Yeah. Yeah, right. No. Chad (04:58.052) Okay. So right there, right? Stop right there. Now we're talking about, because everybody talks about time to hire and cost per hire, right? Which the C -suite doesn't give two shits about. They want to know where that you took it to that next step, which is incredibly important. And this is different from department to department to department, because some departments know better than others what their people actually, how their people impact the bottom line on a daily basis. Right? So, Desiree Goldey (05:11.588) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (05:25.346) All right, absolutely. Chad (05:26.884) So how do you dig into that? Because I think, again, this is not an incredibly complex formula. It's a different one department by department. I get that, right? But it's not a complex formula. How do you guys go and help the TA leaders understand this and actually go after this crazy nebulous number that's out there? Desiree Goldey (05:45.986) Right. Desiree Goldey (05:51.204) Yeah, it's the crazy and again, it's not standard for everybody, right? Like you already said, right? But we can take cost per hire. We can look at days time to fill and but we also look at quality hire of that hire. What was the value? How many were screens were had? How many things got you to that finish line in a short period of time, right? I like to go in and when we bring in anyone as an embedded recruiting team, we like to say we get you to the finish line faster. Chad (05:56.034) Right. Desiree Goldey (06:21.11) and we're able to do that because we're looking at the overall strategy of what you've been doing in the past and how we can make it more efficient, right? And get you to the finish line time to hire faster. It's not that hard, but it is different for each department and each organization, right? Cause not everybody cares about the same damn thing. Just saying. Joel Cheesman (06:46.216) I wanna... Desiree Goldey (06:46.5) You know, and I have a huge issue still with quality of hire, right? I struggle with it, right? Because if you give me a year recruiter who's only been doing it a year, how am I supposed to measure the quality of that hire from somebody who's been doing it for 20? I struggle with the measurement of it, but I do think it's something that needs to be looked at, right? Joel Cheesman (07:08.232) I want to stay for the record that when I saw we were doing a podcast called, uh, broken systems, that this was going to be a therapy session for the inner turmoil that I deal with every day. So I'm a little, little disappointed in that. Desiree Goldey (07:17.652) Right? Chad (07:17.7) It says nothing to do with nothing to do with your ED. Cheeseman. It's okay. Joel Cheesman (07:20.968) I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. Sorry about that. All right, back to Desiree. Desiree, it seems as if... Desiree Goldey (07:21.572) Right? Desiree Goldey (07:26.148) Listen, we could go on and on about the brokenness of people and talent, right? But I feel like the struggle is real every day, but yeah. We'll stick with the systems. Yeah, but yeah, yeah. Joel Cheesman (07:37.138) We'll stick with the systems instead of the inner turmoil of the, of the human condition. Um, Desiree, it seems like from a metric standpoint and justifying existence and profit centers, something has to do with building bridges to the departments that are thought of as profit centers, whether that's marketing, sales, do you give any, uh, recommendations or tips or what are your thoughts on just building that bridge to marketing, building that bridge? So the numbers, it's a, it's a. Desiree Goldey (07:48.652) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (07:53.956) Yeah. Right. Joel Cheesman (08:06.024) coordinated effort instead of HR out on an island somewhere, which is I think the case for most organizations. Desiree Goldey (08:11.78) Oh, absolutely. And I always tell my recruiters when we're going in, I want you to be a strategic business partner. Right. And that means looking at everything. And so that means meeting with marketing. Right. If they have a diversity inclusion team, meeting with that team and figuring out what it means to them, figuring out competitive intelligence. These are things that I don't think we're always talking about in talent that makes us look like we're just a cost. But if we're working across those departments, we can bridge that gap. We can't be this siloed thing that's working just by ourselves. We need to be reaching out, teaching and training, and also learning. And that's how we're going to get, we're going to move the needle on this topic. Right? Joel Cheesman (08:55.976) Yeah. And I, you know, we talked to, to Jeff Lackey, we've talked to him a few times and I'm always amazed at how, how general conversations aren't happening with, with HR at the table, uh, air quotes there. Um, what, how do we make money? What's our vision for the company? What kind of tips would you give to arm HR to go into that meeting with some good questions, some good conversation starters, just to get the ball rolling. Desiree Goldey (09:00.12) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (09:10.596) Right. Desiree Goldey (09:20.548) Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the conversation that even have the meaning, right, because I think. Who wants to meet with HR and talent? Most people, they're like, oh God, another talent meeting these people. Just find me the people, right? I don't want to talk about how you need to find the people, right? But I think positioning is something we're trying to do better for you so that you can make more money at the end of the day is going to be how you get that meeting. And then when you go into that meeting, asking really questions about them and doing a lot of listening. I found that we go in and we're like, Chad (09:35.874) Just find me the people. Yeah. Desiree Goldey (09:56.086) to prove our case so much that we're not actually listening to what the business needs all the time. And so sometimes it's just listening, asking defining questions, really doing a deep dive on what's happening in their organization, in their department, because a lot of departments have their own vision for their department. What's the vision for this department? And getting to those those real deep, deep answers is going to be how you win the war. Chad (09:57.668) Mm -hmm. Chad (10:20.324) Well, it's interesting because, and again, if we arm ourselves with the data and the understanding of what it actually costs per day for just a specific position to be open, then we can actually take a look at some of the projected areas of our process. And many of those are hiring managers that could have actually cost the organization. Who knows how much? Tens of thousands of dollars just because it took them so long to get on the interview, make a decision, et cetera, et cetera. But if we don't have those numbers, we can't make any of those cases. Not to mention we can't speed up those hiring managers because we're not talking their language. If we're actually saying, look, every day it costs X, right? Let's say $2 ,000, which is a very low number, by the way. $2 ,000, right? Desiree Goldey (11:12.708) Hehehehehe Chad (11:14.976) every day that you don't do something or this doesn't move along. But the problem is we don't, we're not armed with those numbers. So how you're talking about data, how do we go after that? How do we go after that data? How do we get those numbers? Desiree Goldey (11:23.138) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (11:27.01) Yeah! I think this is a systems and technology thing too. I was talking to someone the other day about how all of these tools are out there right now for talent, right? And no one's using them effectively. I was in a great Ashby demo the other day and all the things it can do. But if you don't take the advantage of the things that it's able to do, then it's just like buying a useless tool, right? And for my startups, I'm like, I know you have an analyst, right? If you have an analyst, let him Chad (11:31.17) Uh huh. Desiree Goldey (11:57.59) do some Power BI work over there or something, right? Like you can get to the data, the numbers are there. You just need to collect them and get to them and then have someone who knows how to analyze them too, right? Because I think we struggle with that. Some people are like, oh, well, this chart looks great, but what do I do with this now? And I think there's, and definitely in our field, I think there needs to be more training around analytics. Just bottom line. Chad (12:00.066) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (12:21.33) You know this. This is funny Desiree. We were in the we were in the Ashby demo as well and we have a sound bite from that that presentation. Joel Cheesman (12:34.312) So Desiree, I feel like a lot of turning something into profit means cutting it. And we're living in the era of efficiency. Thanks, Mark Zuckerberg. And we've seen a lot of layoffs in recruiting and the departments that we're talking about today. Do you see a future where those departments come back? Desiree Goldey (12:37.826) Okay. Joel Cheesman (13:03.528) And if so, do they look different or is everyone just going to automate as much as they can to save as much money, which, oh, a penny saved is a penny earned, right? So how does the future play out with returning recruiters or not? Desiree Goldey (13:16.108) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (13:20.356) Yeah, I think it looks differently. I don't think they come back the way they were. And that's just my opinion, but I think they come back in a very different way. Listen, if I'm a leader, I don't want to do the layoff at the end of the year where I'm laying off 20 people. It's just not right for the business. It doesn't seem to make sense. So if I'm smart, I'm going in with a different view and I'm figuring out how to get all of this work done because I still have the same amount of work. in a very different way. I do think there's automation that's going to happen. I don't think it takes over talent. I'm not a believer. But I just think it's just not true. But there is going to be a different way to get this done. And that's where folks like ZRG come in to get some of that work done. We work in an embedded recruiting model that works on an hourly basis per quarter, which means you can switch us on and off. So in the times where you have this high volume that's happening, great. let's come in and do what you need to do and then we can go away and you haven't laid anybody off. I just think there's very different versions of what this looks like at the end of the day. Joel Cheesman (14:26.056) So you being on the front lines, are you getting more calls from companies saying, you know what we laid off half of our department. We need to ramp up recruiting again, but we don't want to go back to the way it was. We're going to go RPO. We're going to go out. Like, are you having more of those conversations these days? Desiree Goldey (14:42.724) Yeah, 2023 was the worst in bed of recruiting an RPO. We saw more RPOs go away because it just they were laying off people. Why would you talk to an RPO? But now that they figured out they laid off all these people, but still have the same amount of work. Duh. Right now, we need to do something about it, but I can't bring all that staff back. So, yes, our I. Joel Cheesman (14:54.056) Yeah. Chad (14:59.492) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (15:01.286) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (15:07.012) It's like 50 % higher amount of the amount of calls we've seen since the end of January till now. It's insane. Zerg is doing great. ZRT is pumped in. Joel Cheesman (15:13.416) Business is good at Zerg. I like it. Chad (15:18.692) So yeah, it's amazing. You cut that much staff and productivity drops. Oh, I wonder how that happened. I don't know because people actually do the damn work for God's sakes. It's yeah, it's amazing. But I mean, like the, the Facebooks of the world, the fan companies, they were so bloated that they could get rid of tens of thousands of people. And it wouldn't really fricking matter in the first place because their, their profit margins are so high. Um, so at the end of the day, let's talk about process process. Desiree Goldey (15:26.5) It's... Right? Chad (15:47.264) automation because everybody's talking about AI. That's all well and good. Um, whether it's RPA AI, just process automation in itself. Are you helping companies because many of these companies have the same process they had 10, 15, 20 damn years ago. Are you helping them understand right out of the gate that they need to scrap that shit and start from ground zero? Desiree Goldey (15:48.42) Sure. Yeah. Desiree Goldey (16:13.188) All the time. I can't tell you enough how many times I go in and go, what is happening here? Right? Yeah. Chad (16:20.228) Well, give me a success story. And does that include technology always? I mean, just give us kind of like a, you know, like a success story. Desiree Goldey (16:24.708) Yeah. Yeah, so... Yeah, high level client we have right now, we went in and they had no system or no process in place. So I'll use that. Or they were using a very outdated view of what was happening in the world of talent. And we went in, we said, listen, first of all, you have to get an ATS. I don't understand what's happening that you're not tracking where anybody goes through spreadsheets, right? So we were able to integrate a greenhouse actually for them. And my recruiters and Chad (16:39.812) Mm. Desiree Goldey (16:58.198) and my team then went through and talked about automation, talked about the next steps, talked about strategy, talked about interviewing, talked about all the things to rewrite the process. And right now we're three months in and it's up and running, filling jobs, getting things done, and it's working. But we had to scrap their idea, which was very, I will say this, anytime we go in with a traditional leader, it is the... hardest experience to get them to come to the other side. I can't, I can't. I think that they just believe what's working works and if we have to change everything, I mean, who likes change, right? And at the end of the day, but I just think they get stuck in this talent is just this thing that should be handled this way. And it's just not true anymore. There's just too many things going on in the world, including AI, including all the other automations, all the things that they could be doing more effectively. We actually work from a tech stack that we are able to say like this fits here and this fits there and let me help you get these tools and see if they work because that's what we love to do. We love to go in and help you get to a better place in your talent. Right? It's a hard job. Chad (17:57.634) Mm -hmm. Chad (18:14.82) So what are you guys doing with your recruiters though? Because I think that's the biggest key is the people who are actually on the ground doing the work in the trenches day by day by day, if they understand process automation, they understand how to use technologies to be more efficient, right? Then you can go in and show value almost instantaneously. So what are you guys doing to be able to continue to upgrade those recruiter skills? Because technology is, I mean, if you're not using it, it's going to kill you. There's no question. Desiree Goldey (18:44.568) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (18:49.316) Yeah, so my second part of my title is culture and that means a lot for us here in better recruiting. We are constantly having skill sessions. We are constantly bringing in speakers. We are constantly. We just did a chat. GDT one. We're having how to talk financials right now because I do believe that to be. I believe to be a strategic business partner in talent acquisition. You have to be on top of your game at every every moment. And we can't put you at a client if you aren't at this level. Because they can go get Joe Schmo recruiter. I need to have the brightest and the best to put in front of you. So we're constantly doing that here. It's necessary. It's necessary for myself. I attend more webinars and stuff than I know what to do with myself half the time. Joel Cheesman (19:31.88) Yeah. Chad (19:37.476) From my understanding, you listen to a lot of Chad and Cheese. That's how you get all your information. Desiree Goldey (19:40.132) I do. I do. I do. I do. I am a long time listener. Love you guys. Joel Cheesman (19:40.68) Oh, hello. Hey, say more about that. Yeah. And she's, that's, those are two good looking guys. Uh, Desiree, it seems like the other side of, um, bringing people back going RPO instead would be the globalization. And you talked about getting the best of the best. And one of the magic, magic elements of work from home and remote is I can get the best because I have the world to choose from. Desiree Goldey (19:55.396) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (19:59.78) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (20:07.976) What are you seeing on the front lines of companies that are bringing people back? It seems like we go back and forth like we're from home is happening. No, it's not. Returned office is happening. No, wait a minute. No, okay. What do you see on the front lines from your companies? Are they widening the net on a global level and letting people work from wherever? Or do you see like more control freakish, they're all getting back to the office and you need to work in that bubble, not the global bubble. Desiree Goldey (20:18.434) Yeah. Desiree Goldey (20:36.708) I love it. I know I see both, right? Like I see it happening in both ways. I see startups being usually the more lenient of these, right? They're like, hey, work from wherever you want. Do whatever you want to do. Work whatever schedule. But these very traditional companies are doing the hybrid thing more often than not. Seems to be the sweet spot. Joel Cheesman (20:49.382) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (20:56.328) So you see both sides. Where are you on the argument? Are you buying returned office? Are you buying work from home? Desiree Goldey (21:05.764) Hell no. If I have to see the inside of an office. Again, I'm going to be really, really sad. I am a, I am, I am. I do not believe in water cooler talk. Okay. It drives me absolutely bad. So I will say no to return to office, but I, on the front, I do believe there is a world where hybrid makes the most sense for me. My partner goes in one day a week and that's it. And it works for them. Right. I don't have a problem with that, but I'm not sitting. Chad (21:12.588) I'm gonna go. Desiree Goldey (21:39.414) in 45 minutes traffic in Austin, Texas to get to you so I can start my work day. It's just total BS. Chad (21:43.812) Oh no. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (21:47.912) See hy hy hybrids, hybrids and hybrid to me is returned to work. Isn't it? I mean, I can't live in, I can't live in Burlington, Vermont. If I got to be in the office two days a week in Miami, right. Chad (21:48.996) 45 minutes is like a mile away in Austin. Desiree Goldey (21:52.036) I know, I know. Desiree Goldey (22:00.932) Well, I agree the talent side of things says that that lessens your pool, right? Immediately. Like you no longer get the best and the brightest because you now just like shrunk your pool to this little thing. And it's ridiculous, right? So to me, if you want the best and brightest, stop. Let it work from wherever. I don't, who cares? Chad (22:08.196) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (22:08.84) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (22:19.302) Mm -hmm. Chad (22:24.74) And again, this is the business side of talent, right? And it's interesting because, you know, working a few years on the dark side over at Ronstadt, you know, RSR, everybody was remote. I mean, everybody was remote and that was the best way to keep an incredibly flexible and fluid workforce. I mean, you've got the benches that you're dealing with. You've got clients that are all over the place. You need to have individuals in different time zones. Desiree Goldey (22:28.164) Yes. Right. Chad (22:52.804) So if you're a big company actually trying to ensure that you're giving your clients the best customer service and, you know, just times, phone times or whatever it might be, having a remote force is generally the way to go. And if you see big companies who are customer focused, that's what you're saying. Desiree Goldey (23:15.812) Yeah, we have a client right now. We're doing diversity, equity, inclusion hiring. strategy with right now and I just had this argument about return to office and how it lessens the pool for them for diverse candidates. I mean you're killing my speed here right now. What do you want me to do? You want me to work in Dubuque, Iowa for like you know all the women and all the Black people? Like what is happening? Like I'm sorry. Nothing's gonna change for you. Chad (23:21.772) Uh huh. Chad (23:45.572) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Desiree Goldey (23:48.324) You know what I mean? So like these are conversations as strategic business partners that talent needs to be having, right? And HR needs to be having what is happening to the talent pool all the time. Chad (24:01.38) Well, and you're doing market research for those organizations to be able to demonstrate to them, Hey, look, the people that you're looking for aren't here, which is why we need to broaden up. And again, I think this is all around data, which we need to get really closer to on the town acquisition side of the house. Desiree Goldey (24:08.452) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Desiree Goldey (24:15.03) Yep. Desiree Goldey (24:19.78) I can't say enough that I stress to people because I geek out on data and maybe everybody doesn't need to geek out on it. But you definitely need to get to a good place where you even understand it and are providing it. I don't think we're doing that effectively across talent acquisition. I think we have really great moments in it, and others do it really well. And then there are some that just aren't doing it at all, which is kind of stressful for me. Like, how are you figuring out how to make a move? So yeah, absolutely. Chad (24:28.228) Oh, they do. Joel Cheesman (24:53.032) I'll, uh, I'll let you out on this. Desiree, you mentioned DEI and I can't let you go. Cause I know that's a focus of what you are doing. We had a big, we had a big spike in interest with George Floyd. Me too. You, you know, you know, the spiel is DEI on the down. Is it. Stabilizing is it up? Like, what are you seeing on the front lines in terms of how companies are embracing or not? Uh, diversity equity and inclusion. Desiree Goldey (25:20.548) Yeah. Yeah, it's a struggle for me, but I think this work is hard. It's always been hard. It's always been difficult. It's always sucked. No one listens. The whole jam, you know, like, I don't think this attack is any worse. I just think the political scene that we have right now makes it feel a lot tougher. I think it's always been a struggle, but. Joel Cheesman (25:36.2) Cheers. Desiree Goldey (25:46.052) from an organizational standpoint, I see there are tons of companies still that believe in this, right? Because they're seeing, again, the data that proves this works, right? That they can make a difference, right? And then there are other organizations that just have never cared, did it to check a box, and are moving on from this war, right? They're like, okay, we tried that in 2020, 2021, didn't really work out for us, we're just gonna leave that. It is a war. Again, talent falls off during layoffs, so just diversity, equity, inclusion. It goes right by the wayside. Because unless they can prove it, again, data, tell people all the time, prove it in the data, that they can prove that this worked and did something, it will stay. But if you can't prove the business case for it, you're going to lose the war every time, unfortunately. Chad (26:19.268) Mm -hmm. Chad (26:39.044) So is that the one thing that you would, any TA or HR professional listening to the podcast right now, if they walked away, what would that one takeaway be from Desiree? Desiree Goldey (26:52.548) Dig into the data. Get the data. Be about the data. That's my thing. Be about the data. Be about the data. Become the data. Okay, now we're getting crazy. I loved it. Chad (26:58.1) Be about the data. Be about the data. Joel Cheesman (27:00.776) be the data. Chad (27:03.396) Be the data. All right, Desiree. Well, we appreciate you stopping by. If somebody wants to connect with you, where would you actually send them? Desiree Goldey (27:16.164) send them to LinkedIn. It's my favorite. I spend a ton of time there guys. Come check me out. I'm always glad to connect. Chad (27:17.572) Okay? Joel Cheesman (27:23.944) LinkedIn is our favorite. How do we not dig into that? Maybe there's another show in there somewhere. Chad, that is another one in the can. We out. Chad (27:24.324) Desiree Goldie. Possibly. We out. Desiree Goldey (27:33.764) Thank you.

Brace yourselves for the roller coaster ride of snark that is the "Chad and Cheese Podcast." It's your audacious dive into the world of HR, where co-hosts Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman take no prisoners and spare no feelings. Each episode is a concoction of brash opinions, industry insights, and a healthy dose of mockery, aimed at anyone within earshot. Join us as we dissect the recruiting world, interview industry bigwigs like Blair Fambro from Hershey, and generally wreak havoc in the most delightful way possible. If you're looking for political correctness, you've taken a wrong turn somewhere. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah, what's up everybody? It is the San Diego chicken's favorite podcast, AKA... Chad: Oh, love that. Joel: The Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Chickens. Joel: I'm your co-host Joel Cheesman, joined as always the Felix to my Oscar, Chad Sowash is in the house, and we are excited to welcome Blair Fambro to the podcast. Chad: Fambro. Joel: Blair is the manager of Strategy and DEI at Hershey. That's right. Blair, welcome to the podcast. Blair Fambro: Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. Chad: One of the famous tasting companies of all of America. Joel: Still the number one chocolate bar in America, right? Blair Fambro: Yeah. Yes. Joel: I mean, so Blair, a lot of our listeners won't know who you are. They know Hershey, of course, but give them a little bit about what makes Blair tick. Blair Fambro: What makes me tick is being motivated to make an impact on our organization. It gets me motivated in the morning. What can I... About myself, so I've been in the industry for 13 years now. So all of my background has been DE&I and talent acquisition. So being based out of Detroit, Michigan, one of the things I've always been passionate about is working at the time for the auto industry, trying to make an impact there. Chad: Yeah. Blair Fambro: Being from Detroit. That's all I heard. The big three, working at the big three, and one of the things I wanted to do was work there, but I also had a passion about technology. So every company that I worked for, it had a component of IT. So that's what motivates me, but also being a diverse workforce. Something I love to do. Joel: And are you a Lions fan, Blair? Blair Fambro: Absolutely. My Lions will be back in the Super Bowl. Joel: You're off the ledge. How are you feeling about this season? Blair Fambro: I'm feeling good. You know what? It's funny because this is a deep dive into that, in my entire life, this is the furthest I've seen the Lions go. Chad: Oh yeah. Blair Fambro: So this was like a Super Bowl to me. But now let's see what they can do next year. Joel: Yeah. Is it a one-off or do you think they can repeat? Blair Fambro: I think they can repeat. Joel: Okay. Blair Fambro: I think they learned their lesson. They have a good solid coach and we'll see what happens. Joel: Optimistic, optimistic. Chad: Great coach, great coach. Blair Fambro: Yep. Definitely. Chad: I mean, a great coach, players, I was rooting for Lions 'cause Lions... Joel: If you weren't, you didn't have a soul. Chad: Exactly. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Who did not have a Super Bowl? I mean, come on, man. And then, yes, to watch... Joel: You know I was rooting for the Cleveland-Detroit Super Bowl. Chad: Yes. That would have been... Joel: That would have broken the NFL altogether. Chad: That would have broken the internet. Joel: And so I know you are a Central Michigan grad, a proud MAC conference graduate, just like me, just like me. Chad: Oh, come on, man. Come on. MAC conference. When are they joining a real conference? Anytime soon? Anyway... Joel: Chirp, chirp, bitch. All right. Chirp, chirp. Chad: Says no man ever. Okay. So real deep down personal question. Did they make you come to Hershey to actually like interview, like the town, Hershey? Blair Fambro: No. Everything for me was remote. Chad: Oh, yeah? Do you wanna go though? Because all the like documentaries when I was like... Joel: It's like Willy Wonka. Chad: I wanna go... Yes. I don't wanna be the blue boy or anything like that, but at the end of the day, that looks... Joel: The Oompa Loompa. Chad: Yes. It looks amazing. Blair Fambro: Yeah. I'm looking forward to visiting. I haven't visited yet. I've seen how they started, but this summer I'm definitely gonna go, and definitely take on the amusement park they have there, and get sugar wasted. Take the family down there. Joel: Sugar wasted. Is that what you said? Blair Fambro: Yeah. [laughter] Joel: Wow. Blair Fambro: That should fun. Chad: I love it. Joel: That's a whole wasted I haven't experienced yet. Chad: Okay. So here you're a newbie at Hershey, so we're not gonna dig into that. Okay? We're gonna give you a little time before we have you back on the show then we'll talk a little bit about Hershey. Let's talk a little bit about GM, transition to Twitter. Let's talk about that, 'cause you grew up Detroit. Blair Fambro: Yeah. Chad: Big three. That's what you knew. Blair Fambro: Yeah. Exactly. Chad: Right? And then you had a chance to go to GM. How did that feel? Did that feel like, oh man, here we go. Promised land. Joel: Was your mom proud? Blair Fambro: Yeah, they definitely were proud. Even though my family is more on the Chrysler Stellantis side, I was still proud to be a part of a GM. It was great because for me, that's all I grew up seeing either for Chrysler or GM. So working there, it was exciting because when I came in, GM was bringing everything in-house. So you think about what they'd done over the years and all the employees they hire, they always did things from an RPO perspective. Chad: Yes. Blair Fambro: So I was able to come in and be the first wave hire in 2016 to support their IT division. So being successful with that, coming into an organization and building their IT division, not only in Detroit, but Atlanta, Phoenix, and also Austin, Texas, I think that was amazing. And that pretty much spearheaded my career into other areas. So if you look at what GM is doing now with the electrification vehicles, with the electric Hummer, the Silverados, at one point I was the recruiter hiring people to design those batteries. So that was a sign to say, hey, on my resume, if you see the shift in the automotive industry, I played a huge component in that in regards to the hiring aspect of it. But then I had the opportunity to be a DE&I lead for the organization for engineering, so that's pretty much solidified every way to be well-rounded within TA and diversity, that role pretty much spearheaded where I am today. Chad: What did that consist of though? Because we've talked about, on the show, there have been a lot of DEI leads that just didn't get the resources necessary to actually move the needle. It didn't feel real, right? You were put in a position where you didn't have the resources necessary. Was it a scrap? Was it a fight? What was it about? Or did you get the resources you thought you needed to actually move the needle? Blair Fambro: It was both. And the reason I say that because GM had a strong presence in regards to diversity, and not in TA, but in regards to the global diversity team that was responsible for TA. So I had the support system there, but I pretty much had to fight to say, "Hey, if we want to make an impact from a TA perspective, we need to make some adjustments." And I had to make a business case of a certain resources, certain conferences, and to get certain visibility for my colleagues. A lot of people didn't understand diversity from a hiring perspective. A lot of people were intimidated about having those conversations. Chad: In Detroit? Blair Fambro: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: They didn't understand diversity... Blair Fambro: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: In hiring, so, but... Blair Fambro: Yeah. Where it was about 85 to 95% diversity. Chad: Yes. Blair Fambro: So it was something I was passionate about and I needed to spearhead that. And it was not focused just on Detroit. And I think a lot of people, from a location perspective, had... Didn't understand that or was intimidated by the discussion because you wanna make sure that you're being sensitive to other people's needs, but you wanna make sure that you don't cross the line when communicating with someone. And for me, I don't believe in crossing the line, I believe in having open dialogue. And I love to have those uncomfortable conversations. And one of the things, it's my pet peeve, if you feel a certain way, tell me how you feel. You don't... And just 'cause I'm a Black male or considered a minority, you don't have to walk around eggshells. I wanna know how you feel, I wanna know your perspective. So it's a learning curve for everyone. So that's what was important for me. Joel: So sticking with GM for a second, it seems like every week we talk about the United Auto Workers, another win, another notch on their belt. How do you feel being out of the industry knowing the unions and the win against the Big Three was diversity initiatives part of that maybe we didn't see in the mainstream media? What were your thoughts as the union was winning against the Big Three, the concessions? Blair Fambro: I thought that was huge for two reasons, because I think the world was pretty much watching that. So everything from supply chain, automotive, anything that has to do with plants outside of the Big Three, people were watching that. I think they pretty much spearheaded what they were doing from a manufacturing perspective. And the diversity component, more... If you look at the numbers and the statistics, more minorities and women are in those factories. So from a diversity perspective, that was a huge win for them. Chad: Okay. Blair Fambro: So getting where they needed to be. We think about the fight of people who were working there for years as contractors, not getting those raises, not getting profit sharing, I think that was huge that people made that investment to work there five or 10 years and keeping the same compensation even during inflation. So being able to bring those people on board after 90 days and getting them what they felt that they deserve, I think it's great. So that was a huge win. Joel: You were at GM during the George Floyd, the Me Too movement. What was it like being at a major corporation as these huge events, social events were happening? And how did you see maybe opinions change or processes change during that time? Blair Fambro: It was huge emotions from everyone. It was of a lack of understanding. It was confusion. It was unanswered results on what transpired for everyone. But one of the things I can say about the organization is that they made an environment for everyone to come together during that time. We had open discussions in regards to how individuals are feeling, no matter your background, what you've seen and what you believe. And I think that pretty much helped the organization come together as one. That's one thing... That's one of the things I can say I enjoyed working about at GM. When something transpired, I think we came together as an organization and even as a community to support one another. Joel: That's great. Chad: Is that the culture? I mean, the culture was like, "We are our people". Most companies talk about that. They talk a big game. But it sounds like what you're talking about, GM actually believes it. Joel: It's genuine. Blair Fambro: Yeah, I believe they believe it because of the leadership that we have. The Chief of Diversity during the time I was there, I had a close relationship with her, I believe every initiative and I believe her passion based on the equity and inclusion and belonging. So that's what made me want to stay there for the long term. I think, if you look at my background, I moved around a bit because I wanted to get every experience that I can, but if you look at my background, I stayed at GM the longest than any other organization. Chad: Good for you, opportunities pop up, you take the opportunities. Let's talk about the other side of the coin on that one, let's talk about Twitter. Okay. So because that culture changed dramatically while you were there. So what was your position while you were there? And talk a little bit about that experience. Blair Fambro: So working at Twitter, I wasn't sure if I wanted to leave, leave General Motors and go to Twitter, but I can tell you the experience... Just the interview experience blew me away. Chad: Really? Blair Fambro: Yeah. One of the things, and I've always been based in Detroit, Michigan, so working for a company that's based in San Francisco, culture was different. People were different. But going through that process and learning about the culture, and what they're looking to do, and one of the reasons why I decided to go to Twitter, because I was gonna work on something new. No one was doing machine learning like Twitter and like the Metas of the world. So I wanted to get my hands on that to be able to say, "Hey, I worked for an organization that did the electric vehicles. Now I'm working for an organization that doing machine learning." Chad: That's just forward-looking. I mean, come on, batteries, machine learning. I mean, because that was before the big drop of ChatGPT, right? Blair Fambro: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Chad: Right? So... Blair Fambro: Yeah. Right. Right before that. Chad: Yeah. Blair Fambro: So when I was at Twitter, I was doing pretty much, if you use Twitter and you notice the recommendations or who you can connect with, the news feeds, I was a senior technical sourcer there hiring the people that pretty much worked on that platform, the recommendations, news feeds and all the components of that. Chad: Are you talking about data scientists or what are we talking about with regard to the types of positions that you were actually hiring for? Blair Fambro: Data scientists were part of it, but NLP, natural language processes was one of the... So predictive text, things from that perspective, I was able to do. Before leaving Twitter, exiting Twitter, I was also a part of their security team. So anything from, if you think about the security aspect of it, if you think about safety or abuse or child abuse or anything that happens on Twitter. Chad: Yeah. Blair Fambro: I was responsible for that. Also, just the overall privacy. And one of the things is, if you create a Twitter account, and you deactivate your account, Twitter can keep your information for a year. But the government requires them to delete all that information to keep your privacy safe, so I was responsible for that, and I felt that each part of the team I worked for at Twitter was impactful, and I think it was innovative. And I pretty much enjoyed that. Chad: So Linda Yaccarino today testified in front of Congress that they had all the security protocols buttoned up. Everything was good. Although they decimated a lot of the staff, like 80% of the staff. So the question is, to the public out there, how can you stay secure with less people? Can AI help us be more secure? Because it's almost like that's how many of the companies want us to think, "We don't need people to do this. AI is gonna keep us secure." Blair Fambro: Absolutely not. I don't believe that one bit. You're gonna always have people. One of the things I like to say about AI is, is it's gonna help us work more efficiently. And it is gonna be... It is more like a Google assistant to me where it is helping you enhance your day-to-day experience, but it's not gonna take away anything that we do from a security perspective. I don't know how they're doing it with less people. I don't know how secure it is. But I think once things started to pick up again and these tech companies, that's probably gonna be the biggest area of hiring, security. I mean, without security, the platform is no good. You can have mediocre machine learning, but if you don't have security, your platform is not gonna last long. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You've been part of some incredibly competitive industries, the car industry, not just the big three, but Germany and Japan. You've gone to Silicon Valley, you've got Facebook, Google, all the other tech companies, the startup, the hot cool startups that are there. Talk about how you approached recruiting in such competitive industries and how did you think about DEI being an advantage over your competition and helping you recruit top talent? Blair Fambro: That's funny, 'cause when I... In my aspect, when I think about recruiting, I think about my style, I try to mimic a programmer. And the reason I say programmer, because although my title has been recruiter, I've always been a sourcer, so how do you find talent is being able to come up with unique site commands, unique coding to find individuals. And sometime you have to have that mentality to be able to find those individuals. And what helped me stand out opposed to other recruiters is being able to do things recruiters won't do. And for me, a lot of recruiters are excellent in regards to negotiation, in regards to other things. But in regards to finding those purple squirrels, that was my advantage, and I wanted to beat the competition by doing that. I felt that at one point I didn't have the gift or gap to have that salesman approach. So I said, what can I do behind the scenes to outwork them? Chad: Find your superpower. Blair Fambro: Yeah. And I think the sourcing aspect was always... Joel: It's like you outworked them. Blair Fambro: It was always my superpower to outwork them and find candidates that they wouldn't be able to find instead of relying on the ATS. Chad: Yeah. Blair Fambro: That was my superpower. But I can say for me, DE&I really became a passion when I started working at Hewlett-Packard. When I... And this is when I really was sitting in the tech industry outside of the staffing world. And I had never seen diverse teams. It was all male-dominated, and I seen that you know what? How are these hiring practices? How do you build diverse teams or, you had ERG groups in the organization that people weren't leveraging. So I said, "You know what, how do I work with these people?" This is back in 2013 and I was still mid in the industry. So how do I tap in with people that's already here to engage with people? How do I network with them and learn what they're doing outside of the organization so I can get engage those individuals? And I started to just do more speaking engagements, talk about diversity inclusion and in tech industry. And that's a pretty much, you know what, this is gonna be my niche. I have the background with engineering, IT, but a lot of people are not invested in the diversity aspect of it. Because the reason diversity is important because your company is more profitable. Everyone is a customer. And at the end of the day, I look at an organization, the only thing that mattered is the financial gain, when it comes to that. And when it comes to a business growing and constantly growing. Blair Fambro: But when customers, and even myself, when I see individuals that is a reflection of myself or a reflection of someone that's not myself, I think that diversity is diversity of thought. One of the things I always looked at was when I hired people at tech industries they only wanted people from tech industries. Why? You're just hiring the same people, the same thought process. Chad: Yeah. Blair Fambro: What if you bring someone from banking that does things a different manner, they have a different process, they can implement what they've done in the industry that you may not have thought of that the other companies are doing. Chad: Yeah. Blair Fambro: So I took that approach and that pretty much helped me along my journey. Joel: Recently, it seems like a lot of companies are gutting their diversity efforts. They're laying off managers or executives that have taken those roles. We obviously see the Supreme Court of the country eliminate affirmative action initiatives. What are your thoughts on the future and present of DE&I and where it's going? Is it, are you bullish on it? Are you skeptical that it can have a future? 'Cause obviously there was a lot of positivity in the wake of George Floyd, et cetera. Chad: Oh, well it evolves. Joel: But now it feels like, we're on the down slope. What's your take on that? Blair Fambro: There's two things. I will say, unfortunately with DE&I and HR to like, we're always the first to go when it comes to big layoffs in that perspective. But I think seeing that is gonna help more people gain opportunity outside of relying on the organization. I've seen more people have startup companies since these layoffs of DE&I, than anything else. I see it changing because I think the people, the customers and also the employees are gonna enforce that. They said the same thing about working remotely. "It's not gonna work, it's not gonna be impactful." People are fighting against that, but the people are actually fighting against working remotely and changing the workforce as we see today. And then you think about it, there's another generation coming up. Chad: Yeah. Blair Fambro: And with the Gen Z, they are extremely passionate about diversity, equity, and inclusion. They're also passionate about work life balance. So companies are gonna have to adjust with the generations upcoming. 'Cause they're gonna be the ones to make the make the demands. One thing I can say, once the market increases and we're seeing that diversity being cut, HRs being cut, I think in 2025 or 2026, when people start hiring again, people are gonna remember this. All the layoffs, getting laid off by emails and things from that perspective, people are gonna remember this, and I think there's gonna be a shift in the next two years. I think DE&I is gonna come back stronger than it has. Chad: People are gonna remember you, Blair. We appreciate it, my friend. Joel: Even though he didn't bring any Hershey bars to the interview. Blair Fambro: [laughter] Next time. Chad: Next time. Next time. Joel: I'm a little bitter on that. All right, next time. Chad: He's new. Joel: I give... He's new. Chad: Give him some time. Joel: I'll give a pass. Chad: Blair, if somebody wants to connect with you, where can they find you? Blair Fambro: So you can find me on LinkedIn, it's Blair Fambro, or you can find me on YouTube, I have a YouTube channel that talks about tips and tricks, interview tips. Chad: Nice. Blair Fambro: Sourcing tips. You can find, my name on there is your HR Connect. So feel free to follow me on YouTube and also just check, check me out on LinkedIn, I look forward to connecting with you all. Joel: You heard it here first. DE&I is gonna be back in '25 and the future. Another one in the can everybody, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chad, The Cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs to people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one, cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss, and so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

In this podcast episode, the boys chat with Kyle Samuels, founder & CEO at Creative Talent Endeavors. The conversation revolves around the intricacies of executive search, focusing on retained executive search and its traditional practices. The discussion highlights the challenges and dynamics of the industry, including high fees, limited diversity, and the impact of remote work on recruitment. Kyle emphasizes the importance of human connection in the workplace and suggests ways for startups to navigate their first executive search. The episode concludes with a light-hearted note about Kyle's favorite Taco Bell meal. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Joel Cheesman (00:25.969) OOOOhhh Yeah, it's Bob Hope's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Leno to my Letterman, Chad Sowash is in the house. And we welcome Kyle Samuels, founder and CEO at Creative Talent Endeavors. Kyle also did time at GE Aviation, Ernst & Young, and Yum Brands, home of the greatest company of all time, Taco Bell. Kyle, welcome to the podcast. Chad (00:34.279) He's rolling over. Chad (00:53.506) Hello. Kyle (00:57.542) Thank you, gentlemen, for having me. How you doing? Joel Cheesman (00:59.577) Very nice. Very nice. Good. So our listeners, uh, likely don't know who you are. Let's, let's take a little look into the window of what is Kyle, what makes you tick, man. Chad (01:00.654) Excellent, excellent. Kyle (01:06.535) doubtful. Kyle (01:11.526) Yeah, man. So like you, I've had some familiarity with the 216, born and bred in Cleveland, Ohio. Introverted, only child who somehow has decided to base his whole career on interacting with people and strangers and making friends and talking to people all the time. And I love it, it's really weird. But no, started, thank you for the intro, started Creative Talent Endeavors seven years ago. We celebrated our seventh anniversary on February 1st of this year. Chad (01:38.514) Excellent, excellent. Well, today we're going to talk about executive search and how it is whack. And before we get to that, we got a little background, right? A little background of executive search. And then also, you know, what's changed with executive search throughout the year? Or is it just the same shit? Hit it. Kyle (01:55.75) So for those who don't know, executive search, I'm gonna speak about retained executive search. You have a need, you go to a company because you feel like internally, you cannot find that person or cannot find that person quickly enough. And so the search firm says, great, we'll absolutely find you that person and we're gonna charge you an arbitrary percentage, which is the highest percentage of their salary that we can get you to say yes to. And also by the way, we control who you see. So you can tell us that you can only afford a 250K candidate but if I tell you... all we got is this 300K joker, like, you don't know anything. And so you're going to say yes. And so it's always really, I would not, it's not a scam, but I would say it's rape. It's kind of like a C nos, right? The house always wins in this case. Yeah. And so, but to answer your question, Chad, nothing has really changed in a hundred plus years of executive search. It's still the same way. We don't use data at all in. Joel Cheesman (02:36.337) It's a profit deal. Kyle (02:51.046) various aspects of executive search. And I think that one of the reasons why it's still this like lofty, you know, gate kept system is because it is so expensive to pay for these firms to actually do these searches with you. Not every company can afford that for every role or many roles. And so what you find is it's a certain group of people and of talent that kind of just get passed around the executive search world. because they're within that gated ecosystem. Chad (03:21.762) So companies don't generally have anyone on staff who have this type of expertise because they just don't need it as often. I mean, why don't companies do this themselves? Kyle (03:33.294) it vacillates all the time, right? So one point the pendulum is, we're gonna do everything in-house because why pay all these exorbitant fees when we can just have people pay them a salary and then they execute the search work for us? That works until people are like, we're not really hiring, why are we carrying all these recruiters on our load? We don't really need them. So then it goes back to, ah, it's not strategic, TA is just like, kind of like, go find the people. So we're gonna use firms for it. So it literally goes back and forth and back and forth. Chad (03:36.331) Okay. Kyle (04:01.574) depending on honestly who's running the TA or HR department at the time. Chad (04:04.81) So does the executive candidate actually pay a fee? Kyle (04:11.526) There are some companies that will say, hey executive, pay us this money and we're gonna make introductions and help you and all that good stuff. I feel like in this day and age of internet and LinkedIn where people wanna find you, they can find you. I would not advise that. So I say typically if you're paying a fee for something that's not coaching just for introductions, eh, it smells a little weird to me. Joel Cheesman (04:32.933) So I would initially think that this system has been around for a long time because it works. However, in my research before the call, I saw surveys of like half of all executive searches fail. I'm not sure exactly what defines failure. But do you agree, disagree with that? And if it is such a bad batting average, why are we still doing it? Kyle (04:58.578) So I would say this, I'm one Chad and cheese, I can be myself. So like in like 1812, someone could be like, oh, this labor shit is really working, it's great. I don't pay anything and I get all this labor, it's awesome. So it's working for a certain group of people, yes, but is it working for everyone? No, an executive search is somewhat the same way, right? It depends what side of the equation that you're on. Another reason why people like you said, Chad (05:03.96) Yes. Kyle (05:25.894) they've been, they accept it. Is there a lot of people who honestly, these are my friends, I've talked to them at other companies, they are so excited to run to one of the big firms and be like, oh my gosh, will you please take my 100K to find this person for us? And they're like, oh, we'll do it. There's part of this is like, we've made it. We can afford to spend this much money with this company that shows that we're doing things well. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't, but at least we've reached that level. And because of the brand of those companies, you feel like maybe it was us. I know searches don't work all that well. And that honestly is the great thing about having a brand, right? Like if you are a new company and there's a mistake, it's like, Oh, I don't know about them versus your GE and you have one bad wrench, they don't make wrenches, but follow me. Um, it's like, eh, they've been there for a hundred plus years. People are going to make mistakes. And so people get. Seduced by the brand, the name and what that means. Um, and companies use that to their advantage, quite frankly. Chad (06:18.554) executive search seems to be like they're fishing in the same pool constantly, which is very old and white and male. Right. So why do companies continue to go to, uh, an old pool of the same Kyle (06:29.667) They are. Chad (06:38.734) freaking candidates. I mean, Joel calls it swapping spit for God's sakes, because it's literally, it's going from one company to the next company. It's CEO from here to their co CEO, whatever the hell else. There's no diversification. There's no upping. It just, it just seems like again, this does not seem like a good or even, even a model that you would want to get into today to be able to not just diversify, but to be able to get new talent into your organization. Kyle (07:09.234) So it's waterfalls. And I'm not talking about agile waterfall, I'm talking about TLC. People are, they're sticking to the rivers and the lakes that they're used to, for real. Like that's it. I feel comfortable with this group of people or these companies or they've been vetted by these companies. I know them. I don't know who's over there. They're different than me. They went to a different school. They look different. That's scary. I don't care about that. I'm gonna go with this group because it's easier. It's frictionless. And the other person thing to remember is that Chad (07:15.222) There we go. Uh huh. Joel Cheesman (07:21.05) Mm-hmm. Kyle (07:35.482) Let's be honest, the people who are spending money on these search firms, it's not their money, they're employees, right? They have a budget, but it's not their money. And so, especially if their CEO is like, oh, I love this firm, go work with them. Okay, because, and this is something I've talked to, because my business, right? Talked to people who hire executive search firms, they've told me, hey, Kyle, here's the thing, love you. But if we go to CTE, you know, a boutique firm, that's awesome. and it doesn't work out, my boss can be like, I've never heard of this, why would you do this? But if we go to a firm that's known, like it's the old adage, no one ever got fired for hiring IBM. It's just like, it's IBM, who knew that there was a rogue character who wasn't a good recruiter, right? And so there's a lot of CYA that goes on. It is the safer thing to again, stick with that same ecosystem. It's not innovative, but if it's successful for you at that time, you don't care. Joel Cheesman (08:06.562) Mm-hmm. Chad (08:24.238) Mm. Kyle (08:31.398) Just being honest. Joel Cheesman (08:32.737) I'd love to hear your perspective, uh, being on the front lines of this when, you know, DEI was hot for lack of a better term, uh, following, you know, George Floyd and every, you know, it seemed like everybody wanted a diverse executive or they wanted to, to widen the pool. Uh, we're, you know, we're still dealing with Mark Cuban and Elon Musk going back and forth on, on social media about what exactly is diversity in an organization. So you're just your perspective. Kyle (08:40.829) Hehehehehehe Kyle (08:49.842) Like Pokemon. Joel Cheesman (09:02.017) Is there still a demand to diversify the C-suite? Is it less than it was a year or two years ago? What's the current state of it? Talk about D&I. Kyle (09:13.574) So it's less than it was, but here's, I'm gonna shoot a lot of bill. I may have said this to you before Chad. So I'll give you an example. I think that people don't like performative things. They don't like being told if you're a CEO and you've got a job to fill in, you feel like Chad could be the perfect person, but they're like, no, yes, Chad could do the job, but we need to speak to women and minorities before we fill this role. Now, if the job you're talking about for Chad is like, the maybe the chief diversity officer, and yeah, it might make sense to get a bunch of people with different perspectives. But let's say it's like senior director of FP&A. Make me the argument that having a woman or a person of color in there is gonna make our company more profitable. It's probably not in that particular role. And so I do understand that executives feel like we're sick of this, you have to do it just for looks and it, cause it looks good or whatever when it doesn't serve your business. But what I would say is this. The problem is, is a lot of, especially during the pandemic, you had people who were just like, hey, I'm an associate brand manager, but I also happen to be Hispanic. Cool, Consuelo, you're now our head diversity officer. But I know Mark, that's cool, you're Hispanic, you want the promotion, right? And so unfortunately, she's in that position where she may be passionate about DEI, but she knows how to self-patate a ship. She doesn't know shit about DEI and she fails. So there's that. Then you've had a lot of people who were just like, they think real life is Twitter and they wanna like, you know. Chad (10:26.495) Yeah. Kyle (10:33.282) say all these cool things and not really do the work. They almost want to come into the business and be aggressive. That doesn't work either. But what I really do believe is that if you show the return on the investment for DEI, the ROI DEI, people will understand it. I'm gonna give you a perfect example. What's old boy's name from the Clippers? He had the side chick. No, no, the owner, the owner of the Clippers. Oh, I can't think of his name, but fine, that's fine. Joel Cheesman (10:55.281) Paul George, Kauai Leonard. Chad (11:00.085) The owner. Joel Cheesman (11:01.353) Oh, the owner from Microsoft? Oh. Oh yeah, okay. I'm with you. Kyle (11:02.842) Yeah, but the guy, nah, don't put that on Balmer. The dude who owned it before, he said a bunch of racist stuff. You can do your Googles. But here's the thing. So he was saying wild racist shit, wild racist stuff about players magic this and that. But guess what? Who were his players? They looked like me, mostly not y'all, because he knew, hey, I may think that white people are better than the black people, but guess what? Not in that damn court. So guess what? I'm gonna pay the best people regardless of their background because I want to win. Chad (11:17.098) Mm. Kyle (11:33.006) And so I do think with a lot of executives, if you say, our CMO must be a woman or a person of color, why are you making me do this? Why, why, why? Well, we want it to be a Latina because our biggest area or our biggest target for growth is Central and South America and we want someone who knows the culture, speaks the language, blah, blah. And we think that person can do a better job than a white guy from Omaha or a black guy from Harlem. That totally makes sense and people can see it. But I think what people push back against is just, no, because We've never had one before, now we need this right now. And honestly, in a lot of those cases, it doesn't work well for the person who's coming in because no one wants to be just like, oh, you're here because you were born this way, not because of what you can do or how you can perform. So to get back to your original question, I think that there is a lot less of a desire for it overall in most companies, but the companies who get it, they get it and they haven't stopped doing the real good work. Chad (12:28.43) Gotcha. So let's talk about the future. Okay. So we've obviously established that executive search is old. It's feeble could be running for president, the United States. Who knows? Um, at the, at the end of the day, what does the future look like? Right? I mean, you said that the, the executive search for the most part, they're not, you know, they're not, they're, they're not founded in data, in tech, in algorithms. That's what we're seeing though in the rest of the world. Are we going to move that way? Tell me what the future looks like Kyle (13:03.586) Yes, and a lot of search firms, I mean, us included, we use AI for things like back of the house job descriptions or collecting candidates and stuff like that. But one important thing to notice about all that is like companies will do that and they will tout, oh, we use AI for our sourcing and stuff. But as a customer, why do I care? Unless you're giving me a discount or you're telling me something else, like that's great that you guys have saved money but you haven't added it to me, right? And so think about what I think the future is, is this. Oftentimes, Perfect example, now that people can work remote and regions and stuff, a company's might say, hey, if you work in Manhattan, you know, you might make 15% more than someone working in Omaha, just because cost of living, stuff like that. If you have a PhD, you might make more money than the person with just a BA, right? But when you flip it, when it comes to search firms, we haven't said, wait a minute, you want us to find you an executive who needs to work in, I don't know, Butte, Montana and come into the office every day. That's going to be very hard. Chad (13:48.258) Mm. Kyle (14:02.31) versus our company is based in Manhattan, we have 40 offices around the country and you can work anywhere in the US, right? Super easy compared to that. Why are we paying the same, or why are we charging the same price for something? One is the degree of difficulty is exponentially harder, but the way things work right now, it's like going to a grocery store, you go to Trader Joe's, they give you the brown bag, and they say anything you put in here is $50. Now. Chad (14:26.41) Yeah, but nobody knows what it looks like though. Nobody knows what the landscape actually looks like. So they don't know to ask that question, right? Is it easier to find somebody in Des Moines versus New York City? Well, yes, it's easier in New York City, right? But most people don't understand that so they don't question it. So do we have enough data exposed where people can actually understand what the fuck is going on? Kyle (14:51.838) We do, but here's the, I'm just being 100% honest. If I wasn't, if we weren't a company that, you know, was nationally remote, no offices, no, you know, leases, beautiful leather chairs and aquapon and stuff like that, I wouldn't be talking about this. But the reason, the data is there, but there is no compelling reason for search firms to do that, right? Like it doesn't make sense for them. It's kind of like what you guys talk about LinkedIn and we use it and because we have to, but like. Chad (15:00.697) Hmm? Kyle (15:21.09) I've talked to people LinkedIn, it was like, from a business perspective, like, there's only so much improvement they're going to do because where are you going to go? Where are you going to go? So like, we could do all this stuff, but why? It doesn't make business sense for us. And so I think it's the same thing with the search firms. The data is out there, but people don't know. And you could talk about rationality. It's the same way that I'm looking at them all right now. You can't see it. But like, you can have a sweatshirt that costs $100, or you could put Balenciaga on it. Now it costs $2,000. But some people are so excited about it. saying that they are a part of the Balenciaga world, they will pay that premium. And I think that it's the same way with search. I see it happen with lots of vendors. You were so excited that you finally been able to get McKinsey to work with you. You're paying a premium for that, but you're okay. And sometimes you do get the value for that premium, but when you don't, you say, meh, it's McKinsey, they probably had an off day. It's okay. Chad (16:00.302) Mm. Joel Cheesman (16:04.57) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (16:11.049) What impact has work from home made on executive search? I mean, we have stories of companies saying get back in the office and we have some companies saying like you can work from anywhere at any time. Talk about what you've seen from your perspective, more companies coming in house, are they willing to have executives that don't work in an office, relocation options, like from where you sit, where does executive search sit? in the work from home phenomenon. Kyle (16:42.194) So to answer your first question, it has been much easier for us, right? Cause in the before times, before COVID, it was like, hey Chad, you live in Baltimore. We've got this great job in LA. We want you to come. Chad has to think about moving his kids. His wife has a job or whatever. Where now it's just like, hey, we're still the cool company in LA. You guys can stay here. Nothing changes for you. So in that way, it's been easier cause you don't get people rejecting the job offer because they have to move and disturb the family. That has been great. Chad (17:06.894) Mm. Kyle (17:08.654) Honestly, where I think it's been a little wavy is for candidates and employees because companies for the last few years have been playing double Dutch with return to work, right? Like four years ago, oh my goodness, you can be in 10 buck too, it's okay. Go to Tulum, log in, we're good, right? Then it was like, oh, we got, what's that? Vaccine, hey guys, why don't you come in? Just come in two days a week, why not? And then it was just like, oh wait, we got the booster, three days. And then it was like four and five and so. Joel Cheesman (17:29.829) Two days a week. Kyle (17:36.55) Then they go back and pull back. So like companies have been loathed to just plant that flag in the ground and say, hey, we think we're better together. Because of that, we are gonna be a company that comes in the office four days a week. But we're gonna make it so that you're not doing the trope of like being in the office and zooming with your teammates who are at home that day. There are still individuals who crave human connection. Like we're human people and they want to go work in offices. And I think it's super important for junior people to understand what that looks like. Chad (18:04.622) Mm. Kyle (18:04.914) But if you are wishy washy, then people are wary because they don't know if you're gonna change it all of a sudden, right? Like there are companies who have told people you can go anywhere and then they said, just kidding. Actually, not only do you need to be back here, we'll move you here permanently, but if you wanna come back once a month, you have to self fund that. And it's just like, you didn't tell me that when you said I could move. Joel Cheesman (18:22.937) So we're going back to the future. We're going back to where you have to be, where the company is. The remote thing is not happening for most executives. Kyle (18:31.45) I wouldn't say that. And I would also say for executives, it's just life, right? Like sometimes when you have that C in front of your title, do as I say, not as I do. I know companies where it's like nowhere in the office, but they don't worry about the C, blah, blah. They can do what they do, right? So there's some of that. But what I do think that has been great about this is for companies like myself and small companies, when I started the company, well actually I was in Orange County, but as I grew it, I was in Charleston, South Carolina, beautiful city. I love it, great food, but not known for having the world's best. It's not a... Chad (18:37.386) You do. Yeah. Kyle (19:01.154) industrial, like major business city. And so rather than say, let me get the best people I can in Charleston where I live, it's like, let me get the best people wherever they live. And so I think that is a huge boon for smaller companies, companies that don't have or need real estate, but for the larger companies, sometimes they forget the cost fallacy, but I do believe honestly that, especially if you're younger in your career. Chad (19:03.918) Mm. Kyle (19:25.778) the ability to be around the people you're working with and get to know them outside of work. I always joke about people when I see them, which is probably not politically correct, but I make a joke like, oh, you do have legs, just because we spend so much time seeing people from the belly button up, you know what I'm saying? So like, oh, now, like, I don't know if Chad has legs or not. So like, hopefully I'll see you guys in Transform and I'll know that, but that getting to know people and the socialization and the workplace is just so crucial. And that is one of those things. companies, even if you're remote, I think it's super important just to make sure there are connection points to get, if it's once a year, twice a year, maybe you have pods, but I'll put a pin in real quick saying this, is I tell executives when they get jobs and they're excited, like, oh, it's great. They say that I don't have to come in. I was like, ask them, and this is like when it's not a client of ours, but like ask them what their budget is, right? Because that shows you what they think about connectivity. If you're coming in at a senior level and they're like, oh no, you don't need to come in at all. Like that would give me some red flags. Chad (20:23.702) pause, little pause. So that being said, going, yeah, you don't wanna see that. You don't wanna see that. Let's go back to the, let's go back to again, the actual fees and the structures and kind of like the traditional long-term, you're gonna pay a shit ton of cash, especially when we're talking about executives who have seen, you know, 1500% pay raises over the last 40 years. And the rest of us schmucks have seen about 14%, right? So that... Joel Cheesman (20:25.581) I'm best from the belly up by the way, just in case you're wondering. Chad (20:53.386) That obviously aligns with the fees. So the fees have gone through the roof. How do you actually change it, as you were talking about earlier, it's not fair to be looking at an executive in Des Moines paying the exact same thing versus New York City or Miami or what have you. How do you actually get into a structure that way where the client can see this transparently upfront so that they can understand that there is a new like fashion forward way to look for executives that's not going to kill their fucking bottom line. Kyle (21:30.446) Yeah, there are companies out there using that data to let a client go or prospective client go and say, here's the role, here's what I wanna pay them, here's the location, here's the, is it in office, is it hybrid or not? And they can see and play around and be like, oh, interesting. And I think it's something that job, when I say job, hiring managers think about because it will, these things, these calculators can show you that, oh, wow, if I say the thing could be, the person can be remote. I might save like 15, 20% on my search. And the reason why is because if you say you have to be, I'm in Atlanta right now. If you say you have to be in Atlanta and you have to come in the office five days a week, that is limiting the number of people a recruiter can get versus you can be anywhere in the US, you've exponentially increased the amount of people we can reach out to, which means we're gonna close the search more quickly, which means we can take on another search, which means you can give that, some of that savings back to the client. But I think it's two things. I think first off, Chad (22:27.807) Mm-hmm. Kyle (22:30.786) It's the education aspect and letting people know that, surge pricing, getting your airline ticket two weeks in advance. We know there's certain things in life where if you act in a certain manner, you will save money or pay more. Allowing people to understand that it can be the same way with search. And then also just making sure that people understand that if you're getting a fair price, it doesn't mean that you're losing quality. It just means that there are companies out there who don't feel like they need to stick you up because in 2020, 2021, maybe a little 2022, There were companies out there like, if you don't have 200 grand, you better turn around and go make some other friends. I don't have time for you. And that's the interesting thing with these search firms. When times got rough, they did not lower their fees, right? Like they raised them, but when time, they weren't like, oh, let's work with you, understand times. Nope, price is the price. How may I help you? And so it. Chad (23:09.014) Wow. Joel Cheesman (23:19.901) We're seeing headlines about boomers leaving the workforce, somewhere in the vicinity of 10,000 are retiring every day. But we're also hearing about them sort of part-timing their old jobs. What's your take on sort of the generational shift that we're seeing from an executive search perspective? Chad (23:30.818) Finally! Jesus. Kyle (23:42.066) Boomers know how to work, man. Joel Cheesman (23:42.745) Is it Gen X's time? Is it our time? No. Kyle (23:46.15) the forgotten generation Gen X. Yes, but I would also say that boomers know how to work. They have a work ethic. They know how to get busy. They typically don't have as much entitlement. They knew how to do stuff without the LinkedIn and the technology. So I love it. I honestly have seen, there used to be like in years prior, more of a bias towards the young hotshot up and comer, right? Now I'm seeing more clients. I'm not saying they want someone who's, you know, about months from retirement, but they, you know, like Murtaugh and Lethal Weapon, but they do want someone who has the knowledge, has the grit, has seen it, is not going to like, you know, lose their crap over a bad quarter and things like that. That is something that I've seen change versus just like, nope, the hotshot who's got lots of potential. They haven't done it yet, but we know they can do it. Now there's a little bit more of like, no, I want someone who's battle tested because a lot of companies through the pandemic and because you couldn't interview people in person. Chad (24:16.439) Mm. Kyle (24:43.034) They hired a lot of people, they found out, oh, you weren't that good, it was just the economy, it was great and no one was checking, but in 2022, I can kind of see that you come up wanting. Joel Cheesman (24:50.897) So we're holding on to boomers as long as we can, is what I'm hearing. We're not ready. Chad (24:56.554) which screws up our talent pools. I mean, that screws up our talent pools because as soon as they're gone, we've got people with no experience whatsoever. Yeah, that's a different podcast. We don't have people with the experience in these roles because these assholes have kept them so long, right? Yeah, I mean, so... Joel Cheesman (25:01.889) and real estate prices, but that's a different. Joel Cheesman (25:11.601) Yeah. We're going to pay the piper eventually, right? Kyle (25:16.367) Which goes back to what you said about the same ecosystem of talent just moving around and chugging around. Yeah, it's time to listen to New Blood in. Chad (25:19.69) Yeah, right, right. So what do we do about that? What does the future look like? I mean, when the pool dries up, right? What do we do then? Because we are doing this to ourselves. Joel Cheesman (25:23.761) Ha ha. Kyle (25:34.466) It's, so I'm gonna talk about diversity in a different way, not what most people expect. Bubba, Bubba is a guy who graduated first in his class from the University of Nebraska in computer science. But because he went to the University of Nebraska, cool startups don't come there, the sexy consultancies don't come there. So he goes to like Cargill or Monsanto, the type of companies that hire people from University of Nebraska. Bubba would cut his left arm off to move to San Francisco, work for startup and be in the office every day. He would love it. But guess what? You're in flyover country. We don't give a crap about Bubba. But Bubba also knows things that I don't care if you're black, white, whatever. You grew up suburban, upper middle class, middle class. You went to these elite schools. You kind of have this certain thing. You don't know what people in the so-called flyover states want. Bubba might have an app for like milking cows that could be, I'm serious, being monumental, but they get overlooked. So I think that's another part of opening the aperture and looking at different types of talent is... One of the things again, you hear about people like millennials, oh, they're entitled. They want this, that, and the third. Well, that's because if you go to certain schools, you're brought up a certain way. It's like, I have a, I want to Wharton have a NBA from Stanford. Yeah, you're damn right. What can you do for me? Right. But Bubba, Bubba wants to prove some stuff. Bubba has grit and Bubba is going to possibly open up markets and opportunities that you didn't know about just because. Chad (26:47.37) Yeah. Look at my debt. Yeah. Kyle (26:58.582) Oh, wait, how much fertilize? I don't know, I'm making stuff up, right? But I think that, again, expanding it, making it more open and inclusive, always just makes everything better. And one thing I will say about a little diversity part, I have found typically that a lot of people who worked in the military are fantastic, because think about it, especially if you start 18 or younger, you're with people, races, ethnicities, economic, all this different stuff. You just, some are there because they need a job, some are there because they love their country, some of the times it's both. Joel Cheesman (27:01.881) Yeah. Kyle (27:28.582) but you have to move as a unit with people who don't necessarily look like you think, believe in the same things. So you go to corporate America, it's like, I've had bullets flying over my head. You're worried about this commercial didn't get the hits that we wanted. It'll be fine. And I can interact with any different type of person. Joel Cheesman (27:39.781) Huh. Joel Cheesman (27:44.785) Kyle, we have a lot of startups and smaller companies that listen to the podcast, maybe looking to do their first ever executive search. In a minute or less, what kind of advice would you give them in starting out with their first ever search? Then, I want you to follow up that question with your go-to meal at Taco Bell. Kyle (28:04.966) Got you. Okay, I'm not gonna do a plug. So the first thing I would honestly say, think about as a small company, because I've learned this is a small company too, bigger companies see it coming. They know you don't know crap about crap and they will finesse you. So I would look at how much does my account mean to this person, this company, right? Let's be honest, if you've got, maybe it's 50,000, 75, 100K means a lot to you, but a big company, that's just like, whatever, right? And so like, That's also gonna show how much attention and care and value they're gonna give you. Also, if you're a smaller company, even if they crush this, you may not need them for another year or two. So again, just think about how much work and care and attention are they gonna give you knowing that you may not have anything for them for another year or so, right? Whereas a smaller company, or forget smaller company, let's talk about people. Someone who's more relationship driven, ask why they're interested in your company. What do they like about your company? Why do they think this is a search that they wanna do? And you can see if they've really done the research and trust me, if it's a big old company, the big ticket, they will do it. If people haven't done the research, that's cause they really don't care. They think they can get it without even taking the time to learn your company. So ask some of those questions. Don't expect them to be an expert and know your whole origin story, but at least you wanna have that feeling that they really care and that they want to partner with you versus just like, oh, it's an account, it's a check, let's go and let's move on. That's the first thing I would say. And then Taco Bell, I'm a DLT guy, man. Chad (29:02.527) Mm. Kyle (29:33.182) I'm a DLT guy. And ranch, by the way, ranch, the LT Cool Ranch. Chad (29:40.08) Kyle, so obviously people listen to the podcast. They're gonna want some more, more info, more insights around executive search. And if they do, where can they find you? Kyle (29:52.85) They can find me on LinkedIn. They can find us at www.hire, H-I-R-E-C-T-E.com. That's our website. And you can call, no, you can't call me. But yeah, no, reach out, ping me. I will be at Transform next month, lurking around, running around, eating food, having fun, meeting people. So yeah, love to talk to people. It's my business. Chad (30:08.905) Excellent. Joel Cheesman (30:16.409) Maybe have some Taco Bell. Why in God's name did we record this at lunchtime? Chad, that is another one in the can. We out. Kyle (30:22.246) Yeah. Chad (30:23.906) way out

In this episode, the boys discuss various topics from Europe, including the growth of Job&Talent in the US market, the Automatic Wage Indexing System in Belgium, and the German court ruling that robots must take Sundays off. Job&Talent's recent success in the US market and its focus on high-volume shift work starts off the news analysis, also discussing the potential impact of immigration policies on the demand for hourly and gig workers in the US. Covering a range of timely and diverse topics, they cover additional topics including the acquisition of Orgnostic by Culture Amp, the commoditization of HR analytics platforms, and highlights from the recent E-Recruitment Congress event organized by Lieven and his team at House of HR. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION: Joel Cheesman (00:29.422) OOOOHHH Yeah, three guys forever suffering from a total eclipse of the heart. You are listening to the Chad and cheese podcast as Europe. I'm your cohost, Joel Dusseldorf Cheeseman. Chad (00:44.991) This is Chad, turn around, bright eyes, so wash. Lieven (00:49.326) And I'm leaving, not centrusted in your stupid eclipse. Funny when I am. Joel Cheesman (00:54.19) And on this episode, job and talent goes West, orgnostic gets amped up, and final thoughts from the eRecruitment conference. Let's do this. Chad (01:08.895) What do you mean you don't care about it? Was it because you were not in the path of totality, Levin? Are you jealous? Were you left out, huh? Joel Cheesman (01:13.55) He was left out. The whole con. Lieven (01:18.158) I kept staring at the sun, I didn't see one eclipse at all, so it was fake news. No eclipse... doesn't exist. Joel Cheesman (01:25.038) You pulled a Trump and stared at the sun all day. That's, that's not healthy, leaving. Not healthy. Lieven (01:27.79) I mean... Yeah, I read about it indeed. The glasses were to woke for Trump or something. You shouldn't wear them. Oh, wow. Joel Cheesman (01:36.366) Yeah. I have a theory that you and CABU were hanging out in Finland. That's my, that's my, that's my theory. Trying to watch in the Northern lights or something. Chad (01:41.023) More than life. Lieven (01:43.054) I think in Finland it's still dark. add something else than your stupid eclipse normal lights Chad (01:47.519) He doesn't. Joel Cheesman (01:53.07) You're bitter today. Look, this, so we've got like Chad, Chad's on the cusp of Euro Chad. He's like on cloud nine, riding high and, and at neon Chad, freshly shorn Chad. Uh, yeah. And leaving in all black as usual. Uh, just, just, uh, Lieven (01:55.054) No, no, no, no, I'm happy. Chad (01:55.263) HATEFUL Chad (01:59.263) Yes. I'm also Neo, Neon Chad. See this? Lieven (02:02.926) Yeah, it's nice. I didn't even see it. Damn. Cool. Chad (02:12.159) As usual, he's getting ready. He's still auditioning for sprockets. Lieven (02:13.358) This is Navy, Navy blue. I said it before, Navy blue. What is Prakets? Joel Cheesman (02:15.982) Navy blue, my bad. Midnight blue. Joel Cheesman (02:21.038) You Lieven (02:24.206) Do I wanna know what sprocket is? I don't know sprockets, no. Joel Cheesman (02:24.8) Jesus, you don't know sprockets? Oh, I don't know if you can get SNL clips on YouTube out in Europe. Can you? Well, if you, yeah, if you search sprockets, sprockets SNL from the nineties and old, an old German, old German, German skit, it's good. It's good stuff. Chad (02:26.207) Oh, Saturday Night Live. Oh, I think you can. I think you can get the sprockets. Yeah. Touch my monkey. Touch my monkey. Lieven (02:33.23) sprockets. No touch my monkey. Most definitely not touch her monkey. Chad (02:43.391) just got turned down. No, no touching. All right. I'm going to give a shout out to, to, to European wages. And this is what I mean. Uh, so a study came out and showed pretty much what every European country was getting paid, you know, from top to bottom. Not going to go through all of those. Actually, I want to compare them to, to, uh, the, the U S um, Luxembourg is $47 or Joel Cheesman (02:47.31) Chad, what you got? Chad (03:12.255) 47 euros 20 per hour compare Wow 20 47 20 yes, it's it's an average. It's an average and then the the highest paid state in the United States is and I did today's conversion is 34 25 euro, so we're talking about a pretty huge discrepancy 47 20 Lieven (03:16.462) on average. Joel Cheesman (03:19.438) Party in Luxembourg, baby. Chad (03:41.407) to 35 .25, those are the highs in both. So there are five European countries that are above Massachusetts salary per hour rate, Belgium being one of those, leaving. And there are 10 European countries that are above 30 euro salary per hour or dollars per hour rate, which is $32 an hour for all you Americans that are listening. So yeah, shout out to getting paid. Lieven (03:53.71) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (04:08.558) So, so tax tax tax, the Chousets is the highest hourly way it's tax to choose. All right. Uh, so I'm going to, I'm going to take that, uh, shout out into the gutter with my next, uh, shout out. So Chad, you and I, you and I grew up in the seventies, uh, and I'm going to assume that you were at least at one truck stop, uh, in your, in your youth. If you, if you were in a truck stop gas station bathroom, Lieven (04:08.814) Thanks a -Ju -Sits! Chad (04:12.895) Getting paid. Lieven (04:15.182) Yeah. Chad (04:26.719) Mm -hmm. Yep. Chad (04:31.135) Jesus. Sticky floor. Joel Cheesman (04:37.23) in the seventies and you were a child, you got some sex ed. You got the coin slotted French tickler. You learned that it had to be ribbed for her pleasure. Those are gone. I haven't seen any of those for decades, but thankfully Germany, these coin operated sex machines are still a thing. So. Chad (04:47.967) Condom machine. Lieven (04:51.214) French tickler, nice. Joel Cheesman (05:04.75) So let me, let me read you some of the, uh, the, the products at, in a German. I think this was a Dusseldorf that I was visiting. Uh, you've got, uh, you've got the Billy boy, which is a condom. I think you've got the love ring vibro, which looks like it's, I don't know if, I don't know if the batteries come with it or you got it like put the batteries in separately, but, but that was fun. Uh, you got, you had a minute, many, many vibrate, many vibrator, uh, and you had the, I'll, I'll, I'll mispronounce this, but the D. Lieven (05:05.199) and Chad (05:16.895) Okay. Okay. Oh. Lieven (05:19.118) Of course, that's a classic. Lieven (05:26.126) You just move it by hand. Joel Cheesman (05:34.446) Kunchstiche, Stika, vagina, which is the travel vagina. So it's a party in a German bathroom. I didn't have to go to a truck stop for this. It was just in a regular city square bathroom. So shout out to the Deutschland bathrooms. A lot of fun. Chad (05:39.999) Oh, okay. Lieven (05:40.11) Okay. Chad (05:43.039) Hmm. Chad (05:51.487) Yeah, you don't see that in puritanic, uh, America. No, only, only, only in truck stops only in trucks. Joel Cheesman (05:54.574) You used to. Back when America was great, you could have the French tickler. Joel Cheesman (06:04.27) the hubs of commercial, commercial success, truck stops. Top that one, Levin. Lieven (06:06.158) Hello. I've never seen them, so I think I don't frequent the places you do Joel, not even one in Dusseldorf now. But I don't feel like I'm missing a lot. Okay, okay, I have to admit it, I have one in my room. But... Chad (06:13.535) Imagine that. Joel Cheesman (06:18.574) Play coy with me, Leaven. The guy's got a tree house in his backyard telling me he's not freaky. Lieven (06:26.606) That's right. That's right. In fact, it's a tree mansion. We call it a tree mansion because the house is so common. OK, the House of Commons. Anyways, Chet, you were talking about those wages. Did you know in Belgium we have something called the Automatic Wage Indexing System? Is this something? This is actually pretty cool. So at the moment, the. Joel Cheesman (06:31.534) Free Manchin, nice. Chad (06:43.263) Mm -hmm. Chad (06:50.239) Did not. Joel Cheesman (06:53.294) Tell us more. Lieven (06:55.694) the life cost is increasing, then the wages are indexed automatically. So people in Belgium will always have the same buying power. That was the whole idea. So the moment there is some kind of a price index and when let's say you go to the grocery store and you put all these things in your baskets, the moment the price on average is going above certain limits, everyone's wages are indexed by 5%, 3%, whatever. So last year with the with the whole, we had to index prices, sorry, wages five times in one year, because everything was getting so expensive because of the crisis in Ukraine and people got a salary raise five times in one year. That's pretty impressive. So that's why we have the highest wages, I think, in Europe next to Luxembourg, which isn't a country at all, so we don't account them. But that's why I'm just happy to educate you, American bumpkins. You're welcome. You're welcome. Okay. My shout out goes to the German unions for the first time in my life. I'm giving a shout out to the unions and why? Because they were the first to get on the barricades and defend robots rights to take a day off. And this actually is a fact. So the German court rules robots must take Sundays off. So the legal battle was triggered by. Chad (07:57.599) Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah. Chad (08:06.303) Oh wow. Lieven (08:23.214) Yeah, I know, I know. Joel Cheesman (08:24.366) Yeah. Lieven (08:26.094) So the union fundamentally opposes Sunday shopping, arguing that retail staff needs Sunday as a guaranteed day off to spend time with family and friends. And there was a retailer in Germany who had a totally automated mini shop chain. He hadn't, no one was working for him at all. And he had to close down his automated shops on Sunday because of the robots. So he had to, they needed the day off too. And the union... Chad (08:34.847) Now, that's something. Lieven (08:54.126) triggers the whole legal battle and the court followed it. So shout out to the unions for protecting the rights of the robots. Chad (09:02.239) That's right. And then on Sundays, you can't even get them maintained because nobody's allowed to work. So, I mean, you know, it'd be different if you could have maintenance on that day. Lieven (09:07.054) Ah no, of course. No, if you ran out of coke in the vending machine then nobody is allowed to put a new one in. I wonder what they do with the bakeries on Sunday. Probably it's allowed. Should be. Yeah, of course. Not in German, you get Kaiser breads. Chad (09:25.503) We all need a good croissant. Joel Cheesman (09:25.806) What do you think they'll do about the robots and Chad (09:31.295) guys for watching guys for braida Joel Cheesman (09:32.238) What do you think Scotland will do about the robots, Chad? Anything? No. Lieven (09:37.582) I'll abuse him probably. Chad (09:37.759) Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll be amazing. Joel Cheesman (09:42.83) Yeah, yeah. Joel Cheesman (09:49.71) So some, some quick travel. Uh, we just got back from Amsterdam not too long ago, but Chad and I'll be headed to Scotland, uh, in May for a little Scotch slash interviews slash exciting conversations with exciting Scott Scottish startups. And then, uh, don't forget, uh, rec fest in July. Uh, I'll be there. Allegedly a coal cheeseman, uh, spotting will be a year number two in the making. Uh, I need someone to help pass out those t -shirts and. Chad (10:09.727) right. Chad (10:16.543) our equipment pack mule. Yes. Joel Cheesman (10:19.342) and, uh, sneak in, uh, chugs of beer while I'm not looking my seven 17. Yeah. Shh. Shh. They're listening, Chad. They're listening. They're listening. Chad. Don't, don't say anything. Don't say anything. Chad (10:24.159) Beer? More like whiskey. He was drinking everything. That kid was drinking everything. Chad (10:35.263) ZAPI! Joel Cheesman (10:38.574) All right, kids, job and talent experienced substantial growth in the U S market in 2023. Revenue came in at $450 million. That's a 22 % increase year on year. And the U S became the company's largest and fastest growing market as well as its most profitable in 2024, 2024 job and talent plans to further expand its market share in the U S by rolling out a revamped. product suite aiming to transform the interactions between businesses and workers. Chad, your thoughts on the growth of job and talent. Chad (11:15.487) Well, Joel, I've got to bring up that back in May of 2022, you pondered whether job and talent would be all in on the US regional strategy and then, you know, leave and laughed at us because they were considered a region or if they were just playing a little game of just the tip. I think we can say that they're all in, there's no question. But you also said that coming to America would be a disaster for them. It hasn't, hasn't seemed to turn out that way. Joel Cheesman (11:41.87) Hmm. Chad (11:44.127) The US job market right now is booming in all the shift work arenas, which is exactly where job and talent plays I've said it on several podcasts prior to this one not just about job and talent but the staffing company industry that are the staffing company that Uber rises shift work wins job and talent is still small and Start -up II enough to be nimble while the a decos and ronstads are way too slow and lethargic. They just can't They can't do something like this. They're just way too damn big. But what Uber is doing for rides and eats, Job and Talent is doing for a multitude of different jobs. And where Job and Talent are flourishing is around high volume jobs. So if you're in need of a new gig or just some extra cash, you can search for jobs near you, which everybody does on Google, review the hourly rate. Joel Cheesman (12:17.006) Yeah. Chad (12:41.375) watch videos of the tasks you're gonna be performing at that job and then apply. And as it says on the website, quote, no resume required, just answer some simple questions in our app and get the job. Plus you get paid in the damn app. So this is the future of shift work and job and talent announcement of 22 % year over year growth last year and generating 450 million in revenue. Joel Cheesman (13:01.838) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (13:09.774) Mm -hmm. Chad (13:10.079) feels like just the start. I'm waiting to see which companies try to buy these guys and or emulate because I mean, this is big kudos. Not many companies come to the US and do well. You even see companies who are already in the US like job .com who said they want to do this and they're having problems. Rumor mill says even making payroll right now, right? Staffing. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (13:24.686) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (13:36.302) Oh, sounds like a tease. Chad (13:39.135) Yeah, so anyway, yeah, big kudos to Job and Talent. 450 mil. Joel Cheesman (13:45.166) So you're going to call me out like that on the podcast chat. That's, that's, that's not cool. That's not cool. Uh, uh, yeah. So look, so far, so good. Uh, and when you get a, what, a million, 3 billion, uh, a hundred or $1 .3 billion in investment, you should be able to grow and come to a new country. Uh, these guys have been around since 2009. Lieven (13:48.174) Ha ha ha. Chad (13:48.255) I, hey, it's all about history. It's history. Joel Cheesman (14:08.174) You've got organic growth and you've got immense investment into this company. So you kind of have the best of both worlds there for them, which is nice. The, the, the thing that they did right though, is that this country needs hourly workers and gig workers. 76 million workers were paid on hourly rates last year. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people and whether they knew this or not coming in, uh, Chad (14:32.319) Yes. Joel Cheesman (14:37.902) It's an election year and it's looking like whichever party gets in, there's going to be a border thing. There's going to be a closing or deportation depending on who gets in. And you know what that means? That means even fewer workers than there already are to do hourly positions. So job and talent, whether they plan this or not politically is an incredibly good spot because we're ready to like shut down or slow down the immigration, which means. Chad (14:56.255) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (15:06.766) Companies are going to pay a shit ton of money to find and hire hourly workers, gig workers, et cetera. So they're not even in every state yet. Uh, they're going to roll this thing out. They've got money to advertise. I think they're going to go full steam ahead on marketing this thing. The name kind of sucks, uh, frankly. Um, so they need to market this thing to build a brand around it. But yeah, this is blue skies in part because the investment in part because 76 million people in this country are hourly workers. Lieven (15:28.942) This is Blue skies. Joel Cheesman (15:35.246) And politically we're setting this thing up on a silver platter for job and talent, uh, to crush the U S market. So congratulations, Chad, uh, and calling me out on the show and, uh, congratulations to job and talent who looks like, uh, they're going to do really well. What is the question is. They're like, what's up with zip recruiter? This is their sweet spot. It used to be. I mean, it's, it's, uh, yeah, I, yeah, maybe it's the tech. Yeah. It's it's. Lieven (15:56.27) Dude, I just told you, it's the test. It's the test that they're doing. It's the test. Chad (15:56.415) Dude, I just told you it's the tech, the tech that they're doing. It's the tech. When you, when you're a worker and you can just literally, you can go in and you can pick your shifts and you can, and you can even go to another warehouse or if you're a nurse, if you're a nurse and you want to get some more money at the, at the hospital down the road, you can do that. You can't do that shit with zip recruiter. And I know. Lieven (16:07.726) And you can pick your ships and you can even go to another warehouse or if you're a nurse, if you're a nurse and you want to get some more money at the hospital down the road, you can do that. You can't do that shit in Zipper Crew. And I know that Leaven and his people are looking at this kind of stuff. I know, Leaven. Joel Cheesman (16:19.95) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're getting it right. I know leave, leaving, let, leaving talk. He's, he's on the, yeah, he's on the front lines of this stuff. Your thoughts on job and talent. Chad (16:22.623) that Levin and his people are looking at this kind of stuff too. Because you guys are hot into tech. So talk about this, man. Lieven (16:31.47) It's very easy. It's really easy. I mean, they're just lying. It's not true. I don't believe it. I mean, they're not making 450 million in the US. That's all fake news. Joel Cheesman (16:36.302) Hahaha! Chad (16:42.431) Really? Lieven (16:44.686) I can't imagine in fact, but no, but seriously, I mean, if that's true, then of course it's true. I'm sure it's true, but that's pretty spectacular. But I wonder that they buy a company in the US that they didn't start from scratch. I can't imagine they built $450 million and two years from scratch. Chad (17:06.431) Yes, they've been acquiring staffing companies, but I don't think they have like they were in Europe. Like they bought Norway for God's sakes. We talked about that once show, but they haven't. But the thing is rolling those organizations, those staffing organizations into this tech as like their operating system. And we talked about this with job .com. That is the way forward, but they, job .com fumbled the ball. It seems like these guys might actually know what they're doing. Lieven (17:15.438) Yeah, yeah, of course. Lieven (17:35.63) Yeah, but we looked into them really good and they're not that digital as they claim to be. I mean, it's a charade that they claim to be a digital platform, but behind the scene there are tons of people actually doing the work. So it's not that digital as anyways, 450 million is impressive and my congratulations to them. And now next question. Joel Cheesman (17:56.142) But I don't believe it. I don't believe it. Okay. Well, there's opposing views on the show kids. That's why, that's why we do the show and why we have someone like leaving. Lieven (17:58.094) You don't believe it. Don't believe it. Next. No, no, no, I do. I do. It's good. But I think, I think, I think they bought revenue. They bought revenue. They didn't start using their platform from scratch. They just started from, they had a big investor and they bought something and then it's easier. It's never easy, but it's easier. Joel Cheesman (18:17.486) Yeah, leaving smells a rat, everybody. Lieven (18:21.198) Hmm... Penta don't let. Joel Cheesman (18:23.566) Maybe I can say on some Culture Amp news. Culture Amp, an employee experience platform, has announced its acquisition of Orgnostic, a Serbian people analytics company. Orgnostics helps enterprise organizations to identify actionable insights from sources of people data. The acquisition will allow Culture Amp to integrate Orgnostics data engineering and people insights into its platform. Chad (18:27.295) Oh, okay. Lieven (18:27.598) Uh huh. Joel Cheesman (18:49.55) Promising to provide customers with accessible and multi -dimensional people analytics, the product is expected to be available in the second half of 2024. Chad, your thoughts on the Orgnostic acquisition. Chad (19:04.959) Well, unless job and talent is buying underneath another company, I only see, I don't see any acquisitions since they've come to the United States. Now on to culture amp. Uh, I'm looking on, on crunch base, looking on crunch base. You had me interested. I was, it was, it was very interesting, uh, culture amp. So employee experience matters, but only after companies were smacked in the fucking face with the great resignation, productivity dropped. Lieven (19:15.758) Meh. Chad (19:34.335) The and overpriced CEOs had to start making excuses to their boards about margins shrinking. Then big data matters after GPUs and processing speeds allowed large language models to start training on massive amounts of data. All of this. You take a look at what they're doing at at Culture Amp, much like I think job and talent, they've found a wave that nobody was really riding on or even waiting. And this is around culture. This is around, um, not just, uh, you know, employee experience, but also performance management and employee development. And those products are necessary because if you are an employee, you got to know what your path is forward. And I think that that's pretty smart. Now it's a wave again, that I think it's smart to ride, but much like D E I B. I don't believe companies are gonna ride this forever. So Coltramp needs to make some noise and sell to a much bigger player in the talent ecosystem within the next 24 months. Cause I don't think this wave is going to stick around. Joel Cheesman (20:49.806) Well, first of all, they need to get rid of the Orgnostic brand because that's awful. Orgnostic needs to go away in the next six months for sure. Back to Culture Amp, which I'm no expert on, but I know that they've been around a while and I know that they were a very important product when sites didn't talk to each other. Databases didn't interact with each other. Everything was disparate. Chad (20:55.071) That's easy. Joel Cheesman (21:17.006) Culture AMP, everything you did in Culture AMP was in that. Now you have a world where everything talks to each other. You have language models now interacting with each other. So Culture AMP needed something to say, okay, we're going to be your sort of walled garden employee engagement system, your upskilling system. We'll do it all for you. And there are so many more companies now and products and services that put those pieces elsewhere. So Orgnostic, as I understand it, Chad (21:44.191) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (21:45.71) we'll bring all your ATSs, all your SaaS products together. And now they can bring that data into Culture Amp. So now Culture Amp can start speaking the language of all these other services that are out there. So in theory, it should work really well. Historically, those are pretty hard to pull off. And frankly, if you look at Orgnostics executive team, it looks like a rock band from the 70s who reunited for like one last tour. So I don't have a lot of faith that this is going to work out, but I know a few people at ColdTramp, they're pretty smart folks. Hopefully they can figure out. On paper, it makes a lot of sense. In practice, I wouldn't put any money on it. We'll see what happens. Chad (22:17.439) Nah. Chad (22:29.471) Yeah, I do have to say though, we just talked to Jason Corcello over at Acadian and we asked him what was the biggest miss he's had and he said culture ramp. I thought that was interesting that that that interview is going to come out later. Kids don't worry. Joel Cheesman (22:33.038) Mm -hmm. We did. Joel Cheesman (22:43.854) And that's Mrs. N didn't invest and wished he had. Yeah. Just want to make. Lieven (22:44.846) All right. Chad (22:46.399) Yeah. Yep. Joel Cheesman (22:50.926) Leave in your thoughts. Lieven (22:53.23) Okay, well, I totally agree with Joel about the name. Orgnastic, or what's it? Or - Orgnostic? Yeah, or - Orgnostic. Yeah, it's like agnost, but then argnost. Anyways, difficult name, but they're from Serbia. And Serbia is one of the few European countries I've never been, which says it all. But, I must say, I didn't know culture amp. Chad (23:00.095) Orgasmic is that what it was orgasmic? Joel Cheesman (23:01.166) You Joel Cheesman (23:07.438) Oh, it's, yeah, it's not good. Lieven (23:22.03) To be honest, I'm not, I can't say much about these kinds of tools because I'm into recruitment into marketing, digital marketing, but I'm not really familiar with HR analytic platforms. That's, that's after the recruitment part and that's another business, but it's not because I have a lack of knowledge that I don't have an opinion, of course. So I'll be happy to share it. But I checked our culture and websites and they claim we get the employee engagement, performance and development tools and insights you'll need to build a category defining culture. I have no idea what a category -defining culture is, but I think we want one. But I afterwards looked at the agnostic approach, and at first I must say I was a bit skeptical. It's like another HR data dashboard. But their generator -VI demo is really impressive. It's the best I've seen so far. And it's like they put their own GPT on top of the Power BI HR dashboard, whatever. And then... It actually works and you can ask lots of stupid questions and it comes up with great answers without the hassle you normally have to go through to gather all the data and put it into charts, et cetera. It does a great job. So I can imagine if you're a big company and you have lots of data and you need to prepare something for, let's say, a board meeting, this is a blessing. This is amazing. And I think this actually is a very good buy. So if this was a buy or sell, I would be happily buying. Joel Cheesman (24:27.662) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (24:43.854) Okay. Lieven (24:44.43) I liked it. I'm going to follow them. Chad (24:44.511) So question, question, even as you talk about business intelligence going into a platform like this, as we take a look at like Gemini and then Google has Looker, which has a, it's a great way to really visualize data. Do you think this, this space is going to get commoditized because a company like Google using large language models like Gemini will, will actually just own it. Lieven (24:56.622) Mm. Lieven (25:14.414) Well, you have a few companies able to do it. So you have a chat GPT, I open AI, you have Gemini, Google, you have all the others. Let's say four or five, maybe, which are upstandard now. It will be, how do you call it? Commoditized. Yeah, it's a difficult word. Commoditized. Sounds good. I need to use that word more often. I'm going to commoditize you. Yeah, of course. And now another beer. But, um... Chad (25:17.439) Mm -hmm. Chad (25:29.727) Commoditized, yeah. Joel Cheesman (25:29.998) Commoditized. Yeah. Impress your European friends. Lieven (25:44.046) No, no, I'm sure. And I'm already building these kinds of GPTs for our own usage. But I'm sure if someone who actually knows what he's doing, it's not difficult to make one, but it's probably very difficult to make the best one. So I'm sure we're going to see great commoditations. How do you say it? Well, you know, but I'm definitely sure this is a big business and this is one to follow. And actually, the first one I saw, which was really convincing, was this one. So Orgnostic is a company to follow. Orgnostic. Yeah, Orgnostics. Yes. All right. Orgnostic. Joel Cheesman (26:16.782) Leaven loves orgasm. I mean, orgnostic. Chad (26:22.783) Orgastic. Joel Cheesman (26:23.214) We'll be, we'll be right back. Chad (26:30.911) Oh, you know what that means. You thought it was over. You thought it was over. Uh -uh. Uh -uh. Joel Cheesman (26:31.182) Alright guys, just when you thought Keibu was gone, the conference was over. Oh no no. Lieven (26:32.174) KEEVOO! K, boo. Joel Cheesman (26:41.038) All right, leaving. Listeners know that we had your conference recently in Amsterdam. You look like you've recovered nicely. The surveys are in, the opinions are in. Let's talk about the conference. What were your takeaways? What were some of the survey data? What you got? Lieven (27:00.718) OK, what do we have? So maybe the most important number, if you will, we sent a survey to the participants. About 30 % actually filled in the survey, which is good. And on average, they scored the whole event 82%, which is good. People are pretty critical. Critical, that's the word, right? So 80 % is good. There were, of course, there were whining about the quality of the food, which. Chad (27:22.175) Yep. Yeah. Lieven (27:28.558) Mostly were the Belgian participants. No, I know, I know you just ate it all, but the Belgian participants. Joel Cheesman (27:29.102) That wasn't me. That wasn't me. Until I found out Chipotle, Chipotle is not in Amsterdam. Other than that, I was a little upset until I realized that. So how many people showed up? It was a full house. Chad and I were there. Chad (27:33.631) Yeah, that's why they. Lieven (27:39.502) Yeah, but. 470, 570 something, yeah, something like that. It was a full house indeed. Joel Cheesman (27:48.91) Full house there. Uh, yeah, I, this thing can grow. I mean, I told you, I think there's no reason why it can't be a lot more people, a lot more sponsors, a real, you know, kind of traditional conference. Sorry. Lieven (27:56.526) No, but I know, I know, but that's your American view. We like it's cozy and I know, I know you think, why don't you make it bigger? And then my question would be, why should I make it bigger? We're not into it for the money. We're just, it's all show off, you know, taught leadership, but also it's fun. It's sharing knowledge. Yeah. But in fact, you're right. If you put some effort in it, this could definitely be bigger, but we're still focusing on the quality of the speakers. And. Joel Cheesman (28:08.174) Okay. Joel Cheesman (28:15.342) It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. Lieven (28:26.318) We don't focus on sponsors, for example. I mean, Bullhorn was there and I think they were pretty happy and Vonk was there and some other sponsors. But it's not like I made five calls to companies, would you like to sponsor us? We're not into it for the business. We're not into organizing conferences to make money. It's about speakers. And I have the look house of HR is my main sponsor. So our main sponsor, we're organizing it. So. Joel Cheesman (28:47.854) So European. Lieven (28:54.99) They provide the money I need to get the best speakers. I mean, we could even hire you. Chat and cheese flying over from the United States to Amsterdam. Just, I know. Joel Cheesman (29:01.614) I know. That's high dollar. That's high dollar shit. Chad (29:06.783) And we have a balcony again and everything that was, uh, this setup was amazing by the way. I, this, this venue and the setup was, was amazing. And I don't care what anybody says having KBU come out after lunch when everybody just, they just got done eating, you know, you get into the after lunch kind of, you know, sleepy phase. Oh no, oh no, not when KBU comes out. Oh no. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (29:14.542) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (29:29.134) Mm -hmm. Lieven (29:33.23) Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no Chad (29:37.215) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (29:37.454) You Joel Cheesman (29:42.254) Oh, come on. Everyone knows K -Boo at this point. Finland's favorite son, K -Boo. K -Boo. Chad (29:44.639) Yeah Joel Cheesman (30:00.238) It was there. Lieven (30:02.99) After the whole Congress, he gave his whole start of the European tour, which is sold out, by the way. But it was fun. Then I'm not going to get into much detail about all the keynotes and what they said. We have a document with the three key takeaways from all speakers. I shared it on LinkedIn. You can find it somewhere. You might have to put some effort in it, but I'm sure you will. Sure, definitely. Joel Cheesman (30:07.246) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (30:24.046) Um, would you be okay if I gave some, uh, some of my takeaways just real quickly? Uh, so, so the first thing is always the question we talk about AI automation. People ask, are we in a, we're in for a world with fewer recruiters and keynotes are very good about dancing around, not saying no, we'll still need lots of recruiters. And they always look so uncomfortable talking about that. I think that it's okay to come to the realization that. Chad (30:39.743) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (30:53.582) The world will need fewer recruiters as we evolve this technology. That doesn't mean recruiters are gone and the ones that we have will be kick ass and really, really good at what they do. But the dancing around, we're not going to lose recruiters, I think is, is just false and we should stop doing that. The second thing I took away, um, the comment of, uh, people will stop looking for jobs and jobs will start looking for people or jobs will start finding people. Uh, that was, uh, one of Borman's takeaways or my takeaway from his, uh, his session that stuck with me. And I think that, uh, the thought of a co -pilot, which also came out, I think in the questioning, uh, the Q and a that Chad and I did with bill was that people will have these co -pilots and they will find restaurants for you and they will find, uh, you know, the cheapest hotel for you. And they will also potentially find the best job for you. So a world with these co -pilots. that do the work, I think is something that we should keep our eye on. And lastly, um, Hilkey, who we've interviewed on the show, a New York times reporter talked about bias and AI and the testing that goes on. I mean, she really, uh, sort of crystallize or encapsulated exactly the craziness that goes on in some of these tests. I mean, like pushing the space bar and seeing how fast you can do it as some sort of prerequisite to getting hired. It's really not just dumb. It's also incredibly, uh, prejudice against people that might have disabilities that make it harder for them to push the space bar if they can push it at all in some cases. So to me, that was super eye opening, but those were a couple of takeaways that I had, uh, from the conference being in Europe. The, the point of view is, is refreshing the way that you look at the world is a little bit different. And that's always, uh, refreshing for me as well. Chad (32:17.183) Yeah. Lieven (32:17.326) Yeah. Lieven (32:24.814) Thanks. Chad (32:44.863) Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me was convergence. I mean, what we were talking about 10 years in the US was not being talked about in Europe. It felt like two entirely different ecosystems, but today I feel like they are becoming one. And everybody understands that obviously, you know, we have turned into a global economy, but we haven't acted like it. It almost feels like on both, on both... sides of the pond that we're starting to see this convergence of what is important and what we're leaning towards. So that was amazing. I just love going to this conference mainly because of that piece so that we can learn in this case, you know, from the Dutch that were all around us, but also from the Belgians who took a train in. Lieven (33:34.35) And I agree with what you said about Hilke. She said something and she actually proved it, something I always suspected, that most of those HR tools are just full of shit. So they claim they're measuring all kinds of metrics and they give you a score and they do the matching, et cetera. It's just bullshit. And she tested it and a tool measuring or figuring out how your English skills were. Joel Cheesman (33:45.486) Mm -hmm. Lieven (34:03.694) She spoke German to it and she got a 70 .5 % English. And she confronted the makers of the tool with this ridiculous results. And they said, yeah, but it's about how convincing you sound even in German, something like that. So that's indeed that's bullshit. And it's something HR has to be always aware of that they can be scammed and they will be. But... Joel Cheesman (34:07.79) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (34:19.79) Yeah. Chad (34:27.007) Yes. Lieven (34:29.358) We have some very interesting, I always liked John Norton as well from a staffing industry analyst. He gave a great presentation about how AI is impacting already our business. And I'm talking about the staffing industry. Some others were really interesting as well. So even though it's my Congress, I'm probably biased also. And Hilke is constantly telling us not to be biased. But I liked it. It was good. You should be there next year. Joel Cheesman (34:34.573) Mm -hmm. Chad (34:56.863) Are we doing it in Amsterdam in the same place next year? That's the question. Come on, don't tease us. Joel Cheesman (34:58.318) Yeah, any insights in the next year? Lieven (35:00.078) Ah, could be, but Jovo constantly tells me I have to make it bigger so then we need a bigger location. I don't know. Joel Cheesman (35:07.246) Since when do you, since when do you or any, anybody listens to me? Jesus, Jesus. Chad (35:07.359) Yeah, last thing you need to do is listen to an American. All I got to say is I'm just happy you didn't punch us both in the face when we went out and we wouldn't stop saying, I ain't leaving. Lieven (35:11.246) I'm sorry. Lieven (35:19.534) Yeah, but I was after the Joel Cheesman (35:20.142) while drinking Red Bull and Jaegerbombs compliments of Bill Borman. Well, let's hope it's not the last sound bite that we hear from Kebu on this show. Everybody enjoyed it as usual. We out. Lieven (35:26.67) Yeah, and 15 Belgian beers. Chad (35:40.639) We out. Lieven (35:40.942) We out. Joel Cheesman (00:29.422) OOOOHHH Yeah, three guys forever suffering from a total eclipse of the heart. You are listening to the Chad and cheese podcast as Europe. I'm your cohost, Joel Dusseldorf Cheeseman. Chad (00:44.991) This is Chad, turn around, bright eyes, so wash. Lieven (00:49.326) And I'm leaving, not centrusted in your stupid eclipse. Funny when I am. Joel Cheesman (00:54.19) And on this episode, job and talent goes West, orgnostic gets amped up, and final thoughts from the eRecruitment conference. Let's do this. Chad (01:08.895) What do you mean you don't care about it? Was it because you were not in the path of totality, Levin? Are you jealous? Were you left out, huh? Joel Cheesman (01:13.55) He was left out. The whole con. Lieven (01:18.158) I kept staring at the sun, I didn't see one eclipse at all, so it was fake news. No eclipse... doesn't exist. Joel Cheesman (01:25.038) You pulled a Trump and stared at the sun all day. That's, that's not healthy, leaving. Not healthy. Lieven (01:27.79) I mean... Yeah, I read about it indeed. The glasses were to woke for Trump or something. You shouldn't wear them. Oh, wow. Joel Cheesman (01:36.366) Yeah. I have a theory that you and CABU were hanging out in Finland. That's my, that's my, that's my theory. Trying to watch in the Northern lights or something. Chad (01:41.023) More than life. Lieven (01:43.054) I think in Finland it's still dark. add something else than your stupid eclipse normal lights Chad (01:47.519) He doesn't. Joel Cheesman (01:53.07) You're bitter today. Look, this, so we've got like Chad, Chad's on the cusp of Euro Chad. He's like on cloud nine, riding high and, and at neon Chad, freshly shorn Chad. Uh, yeah. And leaving in all black as usual. Uh, just, just, uh, Lieven (01:55.054) No, no, no, no, I'm happy. Chad (01:55.263) HATEFUL Chad (01:59.263) Yes. I'm also Neo, Neon Chad. See this? Lieven (02:02.926) Yeah, it's nice. I didn't even see it. Damn. Cool. Chad (02:12.159) As usual, he's getting ready. He's still auditioning for sprockets. Lieven (02:13.358) This is Navy, Navy blue. I said it before, Navy blue. What is Prakets? Joel Cheesman (02:15.982) Navy blue, my bad. Midnight blue. Joel Cheesman (02:21.038) You Lieven (02:24.206) Do I wanna know what sprocket is? I don't know sprockets, no. Joel Cheesman (02:24.8) Jesus, you don't know sprockets? Oh, I don't know if you can get SNL clips on YouTube out in Europe. Can you? Well, if you, yeah, if you search sprockets, sprockets SNL from the nineties and old, an old German, old German, German skit, it's good. It's good stuff. Chad (02:26.207) Oh, Saturday Night Live. Oh, I think you can. I think you can get the sprockets. Yeah. Touch my monkey. Touch my monkey. Lieven (02:33.23) sprockets. No touch my monkey. Most definitely not touch her monkey. Chad (02:43.391) just got turned down. No, no touching. All right. I'm going to give a shout out to, to, to European wages. And this is what I mean. Uh, so a study came out and showed pretty much what every European country was getting paid, you know, from top to bottom. Not going to go through all of those. Actually, I want to compare them to, to, uh, the, the U S um, Luxembourg is $47 or Joel Cheesman (02:47.31) Chad, what you got? Chad (03:12.255) 47 euros 20 per hour compare Wow 20 47 20 yes, it's it's an average. It's an average and then the the highest paid state in the United States is and I did today's conversion is 34 25 euro, so we're talking about a pretty huge discrepancy 47 20 Lieven (03:16.462) on average. Joel Cheesman (03:19.438) Party in Luxembourg, baby. Chad (03:41.407) to 35 .25, those are the highs in both. So there are five European countries that are above Massachusetts salary per hour rate, Belgium being one of those, leaving. And there are 10 European countries that are above 30 euro salary per hour or dollars per hour rate, which is $32 an hour for all you Americans that are listening. So yeah, shout out to getting paid. Lieven (03:53.71) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (04:08.558) So, so tax tax tax, the Chousets is the highest hourly way it's tax to choose. All right. Uh, so I'm going to, I'm going to take that, uh, shout out into the gutter with my next, uh, shout out. So Chad, you and I, you and I grew up in the seventies, uh, and I'm going to assume that you were at least at one truck stop, uh, in your, in your youth. If you, if you were in a truck stop gas station bathroom, Lieven (04:08.814) Thanks a -Ju -Sits! Chad (04:12.895) Getting paid. Lieven (04:15.182) Yeah. Chad (04:26.719) Mm -hmm. Yep. Chad (04:31.135) Jesus. Sticky floor. Joel Cheesman (04:37.23) in the seventies and you were a child, you got some sex ed. You got the coin slotted French tickler. You learned that it had to be ribbed for her pleasure. Those are gone. I haven't seen any of those for decades, but thankfully Germany, these coin operated sex machines are still a thing. So. Chad (04:47.967) Condom machine. Lieven (04:51.214) French tickler, nice. Joel Cheesman (05:04.75) So let me, let me read you some of the, uh, the, the products at, in a German. I think this was a Dusseldorf that I was visiting. Uh, you've got, uh, you've got the Billy boy, which is a condom. I think you've got the love ring vibro, which looks like it's, I don't know if, I don't know if the batteries come with it or you got it like put the batteries in separately, but, but that was fun. Uh, you got, you had a minute, many, many vibrate, many vibrator, uh, and you had the, I'll, I'll, I'll mispronounce this, but the D. Lieven (05:05.199) and Chad (05:16.895) Okay. Okay. Oh. Lieven (05:19.118) Of course, that's a classic. Lieven (05:26.126) You just move it by hand. Joel Cheesman (05:34.446) Kunchstiche, Stika, vagina, which is the travel vagina. So it's a party in a German bathroom. I didn't have to go to a truck stop for this. It was just in a regular city square bathroom. So shout out to the Deutschland bathrooms. A lot of fun. Chad (05:39.999) Oh, okay. Lieven (05:40.11) Okay. Chad (05:43.039) Hmm. Chad (05:51.487) Yeah, you don't see that in puritanic, uh, America. No, only, only, only in truck stops only in trucks. Joel Cheesman (05:54.574) You used to. Back when America was great, you could have the French tickler. Joel Cheesman (06:04.27) the hubs of commercial, commercial success, truck stops. Top that one, Levin. Lieven (06:06.158) Hello. I've never seen them, so I think I don't frequent the places you do Joel, not even one in Dusseldorf now. But I don't feel like I'm missing a lot. Okay, okay, I have to admit it, I have one in my room. But... Chad (06:13.535) Imagine that. Joel Cheesman (06:18.574) Play coy with me, Leaven. The guy's got a tree house in his backyard telling me he's not freaky. Lieven (06:26.606) That's right. That's right. In fact, it's a tree mansion. We call it a tree mansion because the house is so common. OK, the House of Commons. Anyways, Chet, you were talking about those wages. Did you know in Belgium we have something called the Automatic Wage Indexing System? Is this something? This is actually pretty cool. So at the moment, the. Joel Cheesman (06:31.534) Free Manchin, nice. Chad (06:43.263) Mm -hmm. Chad (06:50.239) Did not. Joel Cheesman (06:53.294) Tell us more. Lieven (06:55.694) the life cost is increasing, then the wages are indexed automatically. So people in Belgium will always have the same buying power. That was the whole idea. So the moment there is some kind of a price index and when let's say you go to the grocery store and you put all these things in your baskets, the moment the price on average is going above certain limits, everyone's wages are indexed by 5%, 3%, whatever. So last year with the with the whole, we had to index prices, sorry, wages five times in one year, because everything was getting so expensive because of the crisis in Ukraine and people got a salary raise five times in one year. That's pretty impressive. So that's why we have the highest wages, I think, in Europe next to Luxembourg, which isn't a country at all, so we don't account them. But that's why I'm just happy to educate you, American bumpkins. You're welcome. You're welcome. Okay. My shout out goes to the German unions for the first time in my life. I'm giving a shout out to the unions and why? Because they were the first to get on the barricades and defend robots rights to take a day off. And this actually is a fact. So the German court rules robots must take Sundays off. So the legal battle was triggered by. Chad (07:57.599) Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah. Chad (08:06.303) Oh wow. Lieven (08:23.214) Yeah, I know, I know. Joel Cheesman (08:24.366) Yeah. Lieven (08:26.094) So the union fundamentally opposes Sunday shopping, arguing that retail staff needs Sunday as a guaranteed day off to spend time with family and friends. And there was a retailer in Germany who had a totally automated mini shop chain. He hadn't, no one was working for him at all. And he had to close down his automated shops on Sunday because of the robots. So he had to, they needed the day off too. And the union... Chad (08:34.847) Now, that's something. Lieven (08:54.126) triggers the whole legal battle and the court followed it. So shout out to the unions for protecting the rights of the robots. Chad (09:02.239) That's right. And then on Sundays, you can't even get them maintained because nobody's allowed to work. So, I mean, you know, it'd be different if you could have maintenance on that day. Lieven (09:07.054) Ah no, of course. No, if you ran out of coke in the vending machine then nobody is allowed to put a new one in. I wonder what they do with the bakeries on Sunday. Probably it's allowed. Should be. Yeah, of course. Not in German, you get Kaiser breads. Chad (09:25.503) We all need a good croissant. Joel Cheesman (09:25.806) What do you think they'll do about the robots and Chad (09:31.295) guys for watching guys for braida Joel Cheesman (09:32.238) What do you think Scotland will do about the robots, Chad? Anything? No. Lieven (09:37.582) I'll abuse him probably. Chad (09:37.759) Whatever it is, I'm sure it'll be amazing. Joel Cheesman (09:42.83) Yeah, yeah. Joel Cheesman (09:49.71) So some, some quick travel. Uh, we just got back from Amsterdam not too long ago, but Chad and I'll be headed to Scotland, uh, in May for a little Scotch slash interviews slash exciting conversations with exciting Scott Scottish startups. And then, uh, don't forget, uh, rec fest in July. Uh, I'll be there. Allegedly a coal cheeseman, uh, spotting will be a year number two in the making. Uh, I need someone to help pass out those t -shirts and. Chad (10:09.727) right. Chad (10:16.543) our equipment pack mule. Yes. Joel Cheesman (10:19.342) and, uh, sneak in, uh, chugs of beer while I'm not looking my seven 17. Yeah. Shh. Shh. They're listening, Chad. They're listening. They're listening. Chad. Don't, don't say anything. Don't say anything. Chad (10:24.159) Beer? More like whiskey. He was drinking everything. That kid was drinking everything. Chad (10:35.263) ZAPI! Joel Cheesman (10:38.574) All right, kids, job and talent experienced substantial growth in the U S market in 2023. Revenue came in at $450 million. That's a 22 % increase year on year. And the U S became the company's largest and fastest growing market as well as its most profitable in 2024, 2024 job and talent plans to further expand its market share in the U S by rolling out a revamped. product suite aiming to transform the interactions between businesses and workers. Chad, your thoughts on the growth of job and talent. Chad (11:15.487) Well, Joel, I've got to bring up that back in May of 2022, you pondered whether job and talent would be all in on the US regional strategy and then, you know, leave and laughed at us because they were considered a region or if they were just playing a little game of just the tip. I think we can say that they're all in, there's no question. But you also said that coming to America would be a disaster for them. It hasn't, hasn't seemed to turn out that way. Joel Cheesman (11:41.87) Hmm. Chad (11:44.127) The US job market right now is booming in all the shift work arenas, which is exactly where job and talent plays I've said it on several podcasts prior to this one not just about job and talent but the staffing company industry that are the staffing company that Uber rises shift work wins job and talent is still small and Start -up II enough to be nimble while the a decos and ronstads are way too slow and lethargic. They just can't They can't do something like this. They're just way too damn big. But what Uber is doing for rides and eats, Job and Talent is doing for a multitude of different jobs. And where Job and Talent are flourishing is around high volume jobs. So if you're in need of a new gig or just some extra cash, you can search for jobs near you, which everybody does on Google, review the hourly rate. Joel Cheesman (12:17.006) Yeah. Chad (12:41.375) watch videos of the tasks you're gonna be performing at that job and then apply. And as it says on the website, quote, no resume required, just answer some simple questions in our app and get the job. Plus you get paid in the damn app. So this is the future of shift work and job and talent announcement of 22 % year over year growth last year and generating 450 million in revenue. Joel Cheesman (13:01.838) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (13:09.774) Mm -hmm. Chad (13:10.079) feels like just the start. I'm waiting to see which companies try to buy these guys and or emulate because I mean, this is big kudos. Not many companies come to the US and do well. You even see companies who are already in the US like job .com who said they want to do this and they're having problems. Rumor mill says even making payroll right now, right? Staffing. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (13:24.686) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (13:36.302) Oh, sounds like a tease. Chad (13:39.135) Yeah, so anyway, yeah, big kudos to Job and Talent. 450 mil. Joel Cheesman (13:45.166) So you're going to call me out like that on the podcast chat. That's, that's, that's not cool. That's not cool. Uh, uh, yeah. So look, so far, so good. Uh, and when you get a, what, a million, 3 billion, uh, a hundred or $1 .3 billion in investment, you should be able to grow and come to a new country. Uh, these guys have been around since 2009. Lieven (13:48.174) Ha ha ha. Chad (13:48.255) I, hey, it's all about history. It's history. Joel Cheesman (14:08.174) You've got organic growth and you've got immense investment into this company. So you kind of have the best of both worlds there for them, which is nice. The, the, the thing that they did right though, is that this country needs hourly workers and gig workers. 76 million workers were paid on hourly rates last year. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people and whether they knew this or not coming in, uh, Chad (14:32.319) Yes. Joel Cheesman (14:37.902) It's an election year and it's looking like whichever party gets in, there's going to be a border thing. There's going to be a closing or deportation depending on who gets in. And you know what that means? That means even fewer workers than there already are to do hourly positions. So job and talent, whether they plan this or not politically is an incredibly good spot because we're ready to like shut down or slow down the immigration, which means. Chad (14:56.255) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (15:06.766) Companies are going to pay a shit ton of money to find and hire hourly workers, gig workers, et cetera. So they're not even in every state yet. Uh, they're going to roll this thing out. They've got money to advertise. I think they're going to go full steam ahead on marketing this thing. The name kind of sucks, uh, frankly. Um, so they need to market this thing to build a brand around it. But yeah, this is blue skies in part because the investment in part because 76 million people in this country are hourly workers. Lieven (15:28.942) This is Blue skies. Joel Cheesman (15:35.246) And politically we're setting this thing up on a silver platter for job and talent, uh, to crush the U S market. So congratulations, Chad, uh, and calling me out on the show and, uh, congratulations to job and talent who looks like, uh, they're going to do really well. What is the question is. They're like, what's up with zip recruiter? This is their sweet spot. It used to be. I mean, it's, it's, uh, yeah, I, yeah, maybe it's the tech. Yeah. It's it's. Lieven (15:56.27) Dude, I just told you, it's the test. It's the test that they're doing. It's the test. Chad (15:56.415) Dude, I just told you it's the tech, the tech that they're doing. It's the tech. When you, when you're a worker and you can just literally, you can go in and you can pick your shifts and you can, and you can even go to another warehouse or if you're a nurse, if you're a nurse and you want to get some more money at the, at the hospital down the road, you can do that. You can't do that shit with zip recruiter. And I know. Lieven (16:07.726) And you can pick your ships and you can even go to another warehouse or if you're a nurse, if you're a nurse and you want to get some more money at the hospital down the road, you can do that. You can't do that shit in Zipper Crew. And I know that Leaven and his people are looking at this kind of stuff. I know, Leaven. Joel Cheesman (16:19.95) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're getting it right. I know leave, leaving, let, leaving talk. He's, he's on the, yeah, he's on the front lines of this stuff. Your thoughts on job and talent. Chad (16:22.623) that Levin and his people are looking at this kind of stuff too. Because you guys are hot into tech. So talk about this, man. Lieven (16:31.47) It's very easy. It's really easy. I mean, they're just lying. It's not true. I don't believe it. I mean, they're not making 450 million in the US. That's all fake news. Joel Cheesman (16:36.302) Hahaha! Chad (16:42.431) Really? Lieven (16:44.686) I can't imagine in fact, but no, but seriously, I mean, if that's true, then of course it's true. I'm sure it's true, but that's pretty spectacular. But I wonder that they buy a company in the US that they didn't start from scratch. I can't imagine they built $450 million and two years from scratch. Chad (17:06.431) Yes, they've been acquiring staffing companies, but I don't think they have like they were in Europe. Like they bought Norway for God's sakes. We talked about that once show, but they haven't. But the thing is rolling those organizations, those staffing organizations into this tech as like their operating system. And we talked about this with job .com. That is the way forward, but they, job .com fumbled the ball. It seems like these guys might actually know what they're doing. Lieven (17:15.438) Yeah, yeah, of course. Lieven (17:35.63) Yeah, but we looked into them really good and they're not that digital as they claim to be. I mean, it's a charade that they claim to be a digital platform, but behind the scene there are tons of people actually doing the work. So it's not that digital as anyways, 450 million is impressive and my congratulations to them. And now next question. Joel Cheesman (17:56.142) But I don't believe it. I don't believe it. Okay. Well, there's opposing views on the show kids. That's why, that's why we do the show and why we have someone like leaving. Lieven (17:58.094) You don't believe it. Don't believe it. Next. No, no, no, I do. I do. It's good. But I think, I think, I think they bought revenue. They bought revenue. They didn't start using their platform from scratch. They just started from, they had a big investor and they bought something and then it's easier. It's never easy, but it's easier. Joel Cheesman (18:17.486) Yeah, leaving smells a rat, everybody. Lieven (18:21.198) Hmm... Penta don't let. Joel Cheesman (18:23.566) Maybe I can say on some Culture Amp news. Culture Amp, an employee experience platform, has announced its acquisition of Orgnostic, a Serbian people analytics company. Orgnostics helps enterprise organizations to identify actionable insights from sources of people data. The acquisition will allow Culture Amp to integrate Orgnostics data engineering and people insights into its platform. Chad (18:27.295) Oh, okay. Lieven (18:27.598) Uh huh. Joel Cheesman (18:49.55) Promising to provide customers with accessible and multi -dimensional people analytics, the product is expected to be available in the second half of 2024. Chad, your thoughts on the Orgnostic acquisition. Chad (19:04.959) Well, unless job and talent is buying underneath another company, I only see, I don't see any acquisitions since they've come to the United States. Now on to culture amp. Uh, I'm looking on, on crunch base, looking on crunch base. You had me interested. I was, it was, it was very interesting, uh, culture amp. So employee experience matters, but only after companies were smacked in the fucking face with the great resignation, productivity dropped. Lieven (19:15.758) Meh. Chad (19:34.335) The and overpriced CEOs had to start making excuses to their boards about margins shrinking. Then big data matters after GPUs and processing speeds allowed large language models to start training on massive amounts of data. All of this. You take a look at what they're doing at at Culture Amp, much like I think job and talent, they've found a wave that nobody was really riding on or even waiting. And this is around culture. This is around, um, not just, uh, you know, employee experience, but also performance management and employee development. And those products are necessary because if you are an employee, you got to know what your path is forward. And I think that that's pretty smart. Now it's a wave again, that I think it's smart to ride, but much like D E I B. I don't believe companies are gonna ride this forever. So Coltramp needs to make some noise and sell to a much bigger player in the talent ecosystem within the next 24 months. Cause I don't think this wave is going to stick around. Joel Cheesman (20:49.806) Well, first of all, they need to get rid of the Orgnostic brand because that's awful. Orgnostic needs to go away in the next six months for sure. Back to Culture Amp, which I'm no expert on, but I know that they've been around a while and I know that they were a very important product when sites didn't talk to each other. Databases didn't interact with each other. Everything was disparate. Chad (20:55.071) That's easy. Joel Cheesman (21:17.006) Culture AMP, everything you did in Culture AMP was in that. Now you have a world where everything talks to each other. You have language models now interacting with each other. So Culture AMP needed something to say, okay, we're going to be your sort of walled garden employee engagement system, your upskilling system. We'll do it all for you. And there are so many more companies now and products and services that put those pieces elsewhere. So Orgnostic, as I understand it, Chad (21:44.191) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (21:45.71) we'll bring all your ATSs, all your SaaS products together. And now they can bring that data into Culture Amp. So now Culture Amp can start speaking the language of all these other services that are out there. So in theory, it should work really well. Historically, those are pretty hard to pull off. And frankly, if you look at Orgnostics executive team, it looks like a rock band from the 70s who reunited for like one last tour. So I don't have a lot of faith that this is going to work out, but I know a few people at ColdTramp, they're pretty smart folks. Hopefully they can figure out. On paper, it makes a lot of sense. In practice, I wouldn't put any money on it. We'll see what happens. Chad (22:17.439) Nah. Chad (22:29.471) Yeah, I do have to say though, we just talked to Jason Corcello over at Acadian and we asked him what was the biggest miss he's had and he said culture ramp. I thought that was interesting that that that interview is going to come out later. Kids don't worry. Joel Cheesman (22:33.038) Mm -hmm. We did. Joel Cheesman (22:43.854) And that's Mrs. N didn't invest and wished he had. Yeah. Just want to make. Lieven (22:44.846) All right. Chad (22:46.399) Yeah. Yep. Joel Cheesman (22:50.926) Leave in your thoughts. Lieven (22:53.23) Okay, well, I totally agree with Joel about the name. Orgnastic, or what's it? Or - Orgnostic? Yeah, or - Orgnostic. Yeah, it's like agnost, but then argnost. Anyways, difficult name, but they're from Serbia. And Serbia is one of the few European countries I've never been, which says it all. But, I must say, I didn't know culture amp. Chad (23:00.095) Orgasmic is that what it was orgasmic? Joel Cheesman (23:01.166) You Joel Cheesman (23:07.438) Oh, it's, yeah, it's not good. Lieven (23:22.03) To be honest, I'm not, I can't say much about these kinds of tools because I'm into recruitment into marketing, digital marketing, but I'm not really familiar with HR analytic platforms. That's, that's after the recruitment part and that's another business, but it's not because I have a lack of knowledge that I don't have an opinion, of course. So I'll be happy to share it. But I checked our culture and websites and they claim we get the employee engagement, performance and development tools and insights you'll need to build a category defining culture. I have no idea what a category -defining culture is, but I think we want one. But I afterwards looked at the agnostic approach, and at first I must say I was a bit skeptical. It's like another HR data dashboard. But their generator -VI demo is really impressive. It's the best I've seen so far. And it's like they put their own GPT on top of the Power BI HR dashboard, whatever. And then... It actually works and you can ask lots of stupid questions and it comes up with great answers without the hassle you normally have to go through to gather all the data and put it into charts, et cetera. It does a great job. So I can imagine if you're a big company and you have lots of data and you need to prepare something for, let's say, a board meeting, this is a blessing. This is amazing. And I think this actually is a very good buy. So if this was a buy or sell, I would be happily buying. Joel Cheesman (24:27.662) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (24:43.854) Okay. Lieven (24:44.43) I liked it. I'm going to follow them. Chad (24:44.511) So question, question, even as you talk about business intelligence going into a platform like this, as we take a look at like Gemini and then Google has Looker, which has a, it's a great way to really visualize data. Do you think this, this space is going to get commoditized because a company like Google using large language models like Gemini will, will actually just own it. Lieven (24:56.622) Mm. Lieven (25:14.414) Well, you have a few companies able to do it. So you have a chat GPT, I open AI, you have Gemini, Google, you have all the others. Let's say four or five, maybe, which are upstandard now. It will be, how do you call it? Commoditized. Yeah, it's a difficult word. Commoditized. Sounds good. I need to use that word more often. I'm going to commoditize you. Yeah, of course. And now another beer. But, um... Chad (25:17.439) Mm -hmm. Chad (25:29.727) Commoditized, yeah. Joel Cheesman (25:29.998) Commoditized. Yeah. Impress your European friends. Lieven (25:44.046) No, no, I'm sure. And I'm already building these kinds of GPTs for our own usage. But I'm sure if someone who actually knows what he's doing, it's not difficult to make one, but it's probably very difficult to make the best one. So I'm sure we're going to see great commoditations. How do you say it? Well, you know, but I'm definitely sure this is a big business and this is one to follow. And actually, the first one I saw, which was really convincing, was this one. So Orgnostic is a company to follow. Orgnostic. Yeah, Orgnostics. Yes. All right. Orgnostic. Joel Cheesman (26:16.782) Leaven loves orgasm. I mean, orgnostic. Chad (26:22.783) Orgastic. Joel Cheesman (26:23.214) We'll be, we'll be right back. Chad (26:30.911) Oh, you know what that means. You thought it was over. You thought it was over. Uh -uh. Uh -uh. Joel Cheesman (26:31.182) Alright guys, just when you thought Keibu was gone, the conference was over. Oh no no. Lieven (26:32.174) KEEVOO! K, boo. Joel Cheesman (26:41.038) All right, leaving. Listeners know that we had your conference recently in Amsterdam. You look like you've recovered nicely. The surveys are in, the opinions are in. Let's talk about the conference. What were your takeaways? What were some of the survey data? What you got? Lieven (27:00.718) OK, what do we have? So maybe the most important number, if you will, we sent a survey to the participants. About 30 % actually filled in the survey, which is good. And on average, they scored the whole event 82%, which is good. People are pretty critical. Critical, that's the word, right? So 80 % is good. There were, of course, there were whining about the quality of the food, which. Chad (27:22.175) Yep. Yeah. Lieven (27:28.558) Mostly were the Belgian participants. No, I know, I know you just ate it all, but the Belgian participants. Joel Cheesman (27:29.102) That wasn't me. That wasn't me. Until I found out Chipotle, Chipotle is not in Amsterdam. Other than that, I was a little upset until I realized that. So how many people showed up? It was a full house. Chad and I were there. Chad (27:33.631) Yeah, that's why they. Lieven (27:39.502) Yeah, but. 470, 570 something, yeah, something like that. It was a full house indeed. Joel Cheesman (27:48.91) Full house there. Uh, yeah, I, this thing can grow. I mean, I told you, I think there's no reason why it can't be a lot more people, a lot more sponsors, a real, you know, kind of traditional conference. Sorry. Lieven (27:56.526) No, but I know, I know, but that's your American view. We like it's cozy and I know, I know you think, why don't you make it bigger? And then my question would be, why should I make it bigger? We're not into it for the money. We're just, it's all show off, you know, taught leadership, but also it's fun. It's sharing knowledge. Yeah. But in fact, you're right. If you put some effort in it, this could definitely be bigger, but we're still focusing on the quality of the speakers. And. Joel Cheesman (28:08.174) Okay. Joel Cheesman (28:15.342) It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. Lieven (28:26.318) We don't focus on sponsors, for example. I mean, Bullhorn was there and I think they were pretty happy and Vonk was there and some other sponsors. But it's not like I made five calls to companies, would you like to sponsor us? We're not into it for the business. We're not into organizing conferences to make money. It's about speakers. And I have the look house of HR is my main sponsor. So our main sponsor, we're organizing it. So. Joel Cheesman (28:47.854) So European. Lieven (28:54.99) They provide the money I need to get the best speakers. I mean, we could even hire you. Chat and cheese flying over from the United States to Amsterdam. Just, I know. Joel Cheesman (29:01.614) I know. That's high dollar. That's high dollar shit. Chad (29:06.783) And we have a balcony again and everything that was, uh, this setup was amazing by the way. I, this, this venue and the setup was, was amazing. And I don't care what anybody says having KBU come out after lunch when everybody just, they just got done eating, you know, you get into the after lunch kind of, you know, sleepy phase. Oh no, oh no, not when KBU comes out. Oh no. Yeah. Joel Cheesman (29:14.542) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (29:29.134) Mm -hmm. Lieven (29:33.23) Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no Chad (29:37.215) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (29:37.454) You Joel Cheesman (29:42.254) Oh, come on. Everyone knows K -Boo at this point. Finland's favorite son, K -Boo. K -Boo. Chad (29:44.639) Yeah Joel Cheesman (30:00.238) It was there. Lieven (30:02.99) After the whole Congress, he gave his whole start of the European tour, which is sold out, by the way. But it was fun. Then I'm not going to get into much detail about all the keynotes and what they said. We have a document with the three key takeaways from all speakers. I shared it on LinkedIn. You can find it somewhere. You might have to put some effort in it, but I'm sure you will. Sure, definitely. Joel Cheesman (30:07.246) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (30:24.046) Um, would you be okay if I gave some, uh, some of my takeaways just real quickly? Uh, so, so the first thing is always the question we talk about AI automation. People ask, are we in a, we're in for a world with fewer recruiters and keynotes are very good about dancing around, not saying no, we'll still need lots of recruiters. And they always look so uncomfortable talking about that. I think that it's okay to come to the realization that. Chad (30:39.743) Mm -hmm. Joel Cheesman (30:53.582) The world will need fewer recruiters as we evolve this technology. That doesn't mean recruiters are gone and the ones that we have will be kick ass and really, really good at what they do. But the dancing around, we're not going to lose recruiters, I think is, is just false and we should stop doing that. The second thing I took away, um, the comment of, uh, people will stop looking for jobs and jobs will start looking for people or jobs will start finding people. Uh, that was, uh, one of Borman's takeaways or my takeaway from his, uh, his session that stuck with me. And I think that, uh, the thought of a co -pilot, which also came out, I think in the questioning, uh, the Q and a that Chad and I did with bill was that people will have these co -pilots and they will find restaurants for you and they will find, uh, you know, the cheapest hotel for you. And they will also potentially find the best job for you. So a world with these co -pilots. that do the work, I think is something that we should keep our eye on. And lastly, um, Hilkey, who we've interviewed on the show, a New York times reporter talked about bias and AI and the testing that goes on. I mean, she really, uh, sort of crystallize or encapsulated exactly the craziness that goes on in some of these tests. I mean, like pushing the space bar and seeing how fast you can do it as some sort of prerequisite to getting hired. It's really not just dumb. It's also incredibly, uh, prejudice against people that might have disabilities that make it harder for them to push the space bar if they can push it at all in some cases. So to me, that was super eye opening, but those were a couple of takeaways that I had, uh, from the conference being in Europe. The, the point of view is, is refreshing the way that you look at the world is a little bit different. And that's always, uh, refreshing for me as well. Chad (32:17.183) Yeah. Lieven (32:17.326) Yeah. Lieven (32:24.814) Thanks. Chad (32:44.863) Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me was convergence. I mean, what we were talking about 10 years in the US was not being talked about in Europe. It felt like two entirely different ecosystems, but today I feel like they are becoming one. And everybody understands that obviously, you know, we have turned into a global economy, but we haven't acted like it. It almost feels like on both, on both... sides of the pond that we're starting to see this convergence of what is important and what we're leaning towards. So that was amazing. I just love going to this conference mainly because of that piece so that we can learn in this case, you know, from the Dutch that were all around us, but also from the Belgians who took a train in. Lieven (33:34.35) And I agree with what you said about Hilke. She said something and she actually proved it, something I always suspected, that most of those HR tools are just full of shit. So they claim they're measuring all kinds of metrics and they give you a score and they do the matching, et cetera. It's just bullshit. And she tested it and a tool measuring or figuring out how your English skills were. Joel Cheesman (33:45.486) Mm -hmm. Lieven (34:03.694) She spoke German to it and she got a 70 .5 % English. And she confronted the makers of the tool with this ridiculous results. And they said, yeah, but it's about how convincing you sound even in German, something like that. So that's indeed that's bullshit. And it's something HR has to be always aware of that they can be scammed and they will be. But... Joel Cheesman (34:07.79) Yeah. Joel Cheesman (34:19.79) Yeah. Chad (34:27.007) Yes. Lieven (34:29.358) We have some very interesting, I always liked John Norton as well from a staffing industry analyst. He gave a great presentation about how AI is impacting already our business. And I'm talking about the staffing industry. Some others were really interesting as well. So even though it's my Congress, I'm probably biased also. And Hilke is constantly telling us not to be biased. But I liked it. It was good. You should be there next year. Joel Cheesman (34:34.573) Mm -hmm. Chad (34:56.863) Are we doing it in Amsterdam in the same place next year? That's the question. Come on, don't tease us. Joel Cheesman (34:58.318) Yeah, any insights in the next year? Lieven (35:00.078) Ah, could be, but Jovo constantly tells me I have to make it bigger so then we need a bigger location. I don't know. Joel Cheesman (35:07.246) Since when do you, since when do you or any, anybody listens to me? Jesus, Jesus. Chad (35:07.359) Yeah, last thing you need to do is listen to an American. All I got to say is I'm just happy you didn't punch us both in the face when we went out and we wouldn't stop saying, I ain't leaving. Lieven (35:11.246) I'm sorry. Lieven (35:19.534) Yeah, but I was after the Joel Cheesman (35:20.142) while drinking Red Bull and Jaegerbombs compliments of Bill Borman. Well, let's hope it's not the last sound bite that we hear from Kebu on this show. Everybody enjoyed it as usual. We out. Lieven (35:26.67) Yeah, and 15 Belgian beers. Chad (35:40.639) We out. Lieven (35:40.942) We out.

"Leave job boards in the dust." A bold statement for sure, but Sam Beiler, CEO and co-founder at Boostpoint, believes his startup has the muscle to really stick it to the job board industry. How? With a mix of social media marketing, automation, SMS and lots more, like - of course - an AI writing assistant. A lovely cocktail, for sure, but is it enough to put Indeed out of business. Well, about that ... oh, you'll just have to listen to find out what we think of Boostpoint. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

This week, the boys discuss the recent layoffs at Checkr and the launch of connected TV (CTV) and live event ads on LinkedIn. They speculate on Checkr's future and the potential for LinkedIn to tap into the B2B market with video advertising. They also highlight the importance of targeting decision-makers and the challenges of streaming partnerships. In this conversation, Joel and Chad discuss various topics including the potential for LinkedIn to automate job ads on streaming services, the diverging paths of Job.com and Job&Talent, the acquisition of Searchlight by Multiverse, and the partnership between Waymo and UberEats for automated food delivery. They also play a game of 'Who'd You Rather' between Summer and Cariloop. Automation, recruitment, and the future of work ... throw in a fat man in a red suit and you've got Christmas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION COMETH Intro: Hide your kids lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, Yeah. Just two gangsters of love speaking on the pompitous of work. Hi kids. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Maurice Cheesman. Chad 3: This is Chad 1864 Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, checking out of Checkr LinkedIn embraces the big screen and who'd you rather, let's do this. Chad 3: Okay. Okay. Before we get into this, I have a question. So, here in Indiana, I've been trying to mole through this over the last couple of days. Here in Indiana, we've had what's called the brain drain, which means people get educated here and then they leave. So let's say we have tons of engineers that are in Purdue. Joel: Sure. Rose-Hulman, Purdue. Yeah. Chad 3: Right. They go to Purdue, they get educated, they eject. Right. They get the fuck out of Indiana Okay. And they do for a number of reasons, but the competition for companies to attract great talent to a state. Economic developments. And working with state government and working with federal government. I know that is a thing they talk about all the time. So, set this up. Joel: Set it up. Chad 3: This week, the Arizona Supreme Court ruled that a near total abortion ban from 1864 is enforceable. How do companies doing business in the state of Arizona who are trying their damn just to get the great talents into their companies, into Arizona into Phoenix, into Tempe, and into Arizona. How do they deal with this? Because this is going to be a real recruiting issue for companies trying to compete for great talent. How do they do it? Joel: Well, first off talking about college, college is recruiting students. A lot of students have. Chad 3: That's a good point. Shit. Joel: News reports coming out that students don't want to go to schools where abortion is quite frankly, illegal. Not even a gray area. It's just straight up civil War era laws. Chad 3: Think of all the fun that you have in college. Joel: All the dumb fun, all the bad decisions that you make in college, and also trying to make the Plan B pill illegal. And so. Chad 3: I don't get it, man. Joel: Yeah. Very, very confusing. I mean, I think the GOP has to be wondering, be careful what you wish for. They've been wishing for a Supreme Court to sort of strike down Roe for 30, 40, 50 years. And they've gotten it, and they may lose a whole lot of elections because of it. Trump is kind of moonwalking this issue, throwing it to the states. People are gonna vote on this. People are gonna vote on this issue like they have in certain states, and it's gonna be a loser for the GOP. But the GOP has made this... Chad 3: It has been. Joel: Made this marriage with the conservative right. Who support them in terms of canvassing houses and voting and money. And so they've made this deal with the devil, and now they have to dance with the devil. And November should be very interesting. The question is, does it stay with the states? If it does, I think more states than not are gonna vote down the laws that are there now, does it go to the federal level, which I don't think it will. I'm sure a lot of companies wish that it would, because it becomes a real game of whack-a-mole to say, what states are we gonna do business in and hire in? We've had companies say, Hey, we'll ship you to whatever state you want for this healthcare. That's a pain in the ass. Companies don't wanna do that. So, yeah. Chad 3: Well, that's just because they're there already. They won't put new locations in those states. And again, I don't wanna get away from this is... They're taking the right away from women. And that's their decision. A woman's decision. And I mean, I don't want to get away from that, but as this podcast focuses on business. The impact for these states, again, they're shooting themselves in the foot. I mean, this is... Again, I've been saying for years, we are trying to go back to 1930. I was wrong. We're trying to go back to the 18 fucking 60s. Joel: It's quite a dichotomy that you have states that are "business friendly", Arizona, Texas, Florida, low taxes, low regulation. But then you flip the script and say, oh, by the way, abortion's illegal in our state. Companies have to like, put their dollars to work and get politicians that are gonna make a more friendly environment for recruiting and retaining talent. Period. You can't lure me to Texas with low regulations in taxes, and then in the back door, tell me like, oh, by the way, women are screwed in this state. Sorry. Chad 3: Yeah. And take your rights away, Yeah. Whew. Not that Indiana's any better. Okay. Joel: We're only a fourth into 2024. We got 200 and some days left 'till the election. It'll be fun. Chad 3: Ooh, I can't wait to be on the beach. Anyway, shout out. Joel: That's true. This is messing with your vibe, man. Chad 3: Ooh. It's killing my Euro vibe man. Joel: Chad's had some Euro energy going on, and... Chad 3: Yeah, I have. Joel: This is not good for any of that. So, yeah, let's... Chad 3: Shout out. Joel: Let's get to some shout outs. All right. Number one, Adam Chambers, one of our favorite guests. One of our favorite firing squads. We didn't have video at the time, but my man was in a basement somewhere at his mom's house, maybe, I don't know. He had pillows over his head. Chad 3: He's on a WeWork. Joel: Trying to sound as good as possible on the... Which we gave him... I think we both gave him a rousing applause. That was a company called Applichat, which he pivoted into nurse recruiting. He's not the first one to see dollars in healthcare. And he made that move. We've kind lived through him. He's from Ireland. Chad 3: Oh, yeah. Joel: Belfast. He goes to Mexico. He does salsa dancing with beautiful women in South America. Chad 3: He was in Spain. Joel: Spain. He's all over the place. So, anyway, he finally got married. I don't know if we're plotting that or maybe it's a sad note of his singledom is gone, but he obviously met. Chad 3: Very happy for him. Joel: Quite a lucky woman and couldn't be happier for this kid, Adam Chambers, man good for you. Enjoy life and. Chad 3: Well. Joel: Keep doing what you're doing, man. Chad 3: I gotta say from those wedding pictures, he's definitely punching up because, he did incredibly well. So hopefully... She probably has bad eyesight, but, good luck kids. Good luck kids. Joel: That's not nice. Chad 3: Oh, Adam knows I love him. Joel: I know Adam he's fine. Chad 3: My shout out goes to shitty comms departments. The following came from an HR leader. This week directly connected to us. "SmartRecruiters has not announced that change to its customers yet about Rebecca Carr becoming the interim CEO. Also, the Blueboard disappearing Act was nuts. They never contacted us about them dissolving the company." So this is a customer in a leadership position. So to all of those vendors out there and comms departments out there, make sure your customer engagement game is tight. Okay. Your customers need to know what the fuck's going on. Joel: Yeah. Don't be stupid. 4: You're so dumb. You're really dumb. Chad 3: You're dumb. 4: For real. Joel: All right. My last shout out Seth Godin is a marketing guru, if you will, that I've been following for 20 some years. If you ever read Purple Cow it's a great book to kind of starting out in marketing. But anyway, he has launched a few things over the years. He actually launched a job site not too long ago and then shut it down eventually, if that tells you something about how hard running a job board is and how bad of a business that it is in most cases. But he just launched a site called GOODBIDS. You know, there's not really a good marketplace for giving to charity. Silent auction kind of thing. So he's building kind of a marketplace. They have some really cool bidding items. One is have your name in the next John Grisham novel. You'll be a character like Chad Sowash could be a character. Chad 3: Oh, that's cool. Joel: In a novel. Chad 3: Oh, that's cool. Joel: Fight Club movie poster signed a lot of sports memorabilia and all of that goes to charities that you select the money to go to. So goodbids.org if you wanna check it out, sign up, bid on some cool things. I highly recommend that. But Seth Godin, good job. Shout out to you for creating goodbids.org. Very nice. Very nice. Chad 3: Very nice. Well, you might not be bidding for free stuff, but at chadcheese.com/free, you get the free stuff. Look at that T-shirt Joel Cheesman's wearing right now. Look at it. If you're on YouTube, you can see that that is sexy. Joel: Welcome to The Junk. Chad 3: That's some guns and roses sex appeal right there. Joel: That is Sexy. Chad 3: Brought to you by ERIN App. That's right kids ERIN app, the referral platform, plus free craft beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. You could prospectively win free beer delivered to your door, not by us, by somebody who does that for a living. Whiskey by text Colonel bottle from Joel, bottle from myself. Great whiskey. And if it's your birthday Kids Rum from Plum. You might win. 4: Do you feel the tension. Chad 3: On your birthday month. 4: In the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: That's right Chad, a few listeners are celebrating another trip around the sun. No order if they were in the Trail of Totality this past week with the Eclipse. Chad 3: Oh, I was. Joel: But they were celebrating other trip around the sun. Stephen Rothberg, Sean Godfrey, Rick Carner, Jason Casey, Jason Crowell, Amanda Semanski, Lauren Berger, Molly Stum, Dave Lowry, and Brian Moore. All celebrate another trip. 5: Happy birthday. Joel: Around the sun this week. Happy birthday listeners. Chad 3: They just reminds me of Bad Boys. Mike Lowry. Who are you? Are you Mike Lowry? No, I'm Mike Lowry. All right. We got events. We got events. We're going to Unleash America in Vegas. That's at Caesars Forum which is a great little area. I mean. Joel: Oh yeah. 4: All right. All right. All right. Chad 3: Not only is the Forum great I think for an event, but the link is right there. You've got all the great restaurants. We are taking the leap and literally jumping off the top of the stratosphere with Matt Bauer from Outhire. That's right. CEO of Outhire. Joel: And a package of depends for me, my friend. Oh no. [music] Chad 3: Dude. It's over 800 feet. And yes, you, you can jump with us or you can nominate a friend or enemy. Just go to chadcheese.com and right on the top of the page, you can click the button that says, Jump with Us. Nominate yourself or someone else. All thanks to the high flying staff over at Outhire. So listener, you gotta let go of those outdated hiring processes and technologies. You gotta take the leap. See what I did there? Joel: I see what you did there. Chad 3: Go to outhire.ai today. Damn, I know you're excited. I know you're excited. Joel: I'm so excited. My wife is super excited too. She's like, have you done your will? Have you updated the will yet? Chad 3: Then we're going to the Minus5 bar, but before that, let's talk about this. Great people sent me a box. Did you get one? Did you get a box? Joel: And me, I didn't know who it was. Chad 3: Excellent. Joel: There was no note. Just a mysterious cigar bottle. Chad 3: I had a note. Joel: Oh, you had a note. Okay. Chad 3: You probably threw the note away because you saw the Stagg Barrel strength Bourbon. You saw a cigar, you saw the Glencairn Glass. Did you get a model of Fireball? Joel: I didn't get the Stagg. Chad 3: Did you... Fireball? Joel: I got a west. Chad 3: Mini Fireball. Joel: I didn't get a mini fireball. Is there a story there? Chad 3: I got a fireball, and I bet the Fireball is supposed to keep me warm while we are in Omaha's Ice Castle. Joel: Oh, okay. Chad 3: At the Minus5 bar with Diane and Jane from... Great people in Omaha from John Pixel. So how can you get into the party? Well follow Joel and me on LinkedIn. You can check out our latest posts where we push the registration link out there. Yeah. Gonna get you a little parka. It's gonna feel like it's Finland all in the desert. It's great. Then on May 8th at the Neon Boneyard, if you have not seen this place. Joel: Very sexy. Chad 3: You've gotta go to Google. 5: I'm Happy. Chad 3: You gotta go to Google. And it's not gonna take you to a porn site, I promise you. You type in Neon Boneyard and all the pictures that come up on Google, it is amazing. We're gonna be partying there, basking in the neon glow. But just go to chadcheese.com/events or go to the chadcheese.com, click on events in the upper right hand corner and click on the join wait list button there. Join us, our friends from Plum and it's gonna be a good time. Joel: Love it, dude. Vegas, we're getting too old for this shit, man. We gotta pace ourselves a little bit. Pace ourselves. Pace ourselves. Chad 3: Speak for yourself, Mr. I'm ready for this. Joel: All right, here we go. 5: Layoffs. Joel: Before we get to the news. 5: What? Joel: Yeah, we got some big. 5: Layoff. Joel: Layoff News, Checkr. Checkr has laid off 382 employees due to a... Chad 3: Wow. Joel: Slow down in hiring per the company. The layoff's affecting 32% of its workforce aimed to improve efficiency. There's that word again. Amid of economic challenges, in case you missed it, Checkr services include criminal record checks and identity verification with clients like Uber and Netflix. The startup, not quite a startup anymore, but they're valued at $5 billion. That was back in 2022. They've raised, $679 million in funding. Chad 3: Wow. Joel: Chad, what can only be, I guess called a train wreck of sorts. What are your thoughts on the news out of Checkr? Chad 3: Well, it seems like they're not gonna be the one buying Fama. We keep talking about all these background check companies that should be talking to Ben Mones about the buying Fama and really evolving. It doesn't look like that's happening here. Do you think we're looking at just prepping for acquisition and/or just go IPO. Joel: Oh, I don't think IPO's anywhere in the future. So we've recently talked about the three big companies in this space historically have been HireRight, they were acquired by a private equity taken off the public markets. Chad 3: Off the board. Joel: Yeah. Their valuation from the sale was $1.65 billion. And then you had Sterling and First Advantage merge, I guess like it was technically an acquisition of First Advantage over Sterling that valued the companies at $2.2 billion. So basically in 2022, investors were wise enough to think that Checkr was twice as valuable as two or bigger. Chad 3: 5 billion. Joel: Yeah. Like $5 billion. So clearly they weren't going to grow into that valuation. So they have to cut costs and needs which cut costs is, I don't know, a third of your head count off the books. Frankly, now that they've cut, they need to grow if they're gonna have any hope of getting into that valuation. So that means... I think it's a perfect time to go buy Fama. Like take some of this money that you're saving from employees and there are a ton of mom and pop background check companies with 25, 50, a 100 clients. Like start buying those companies up. Start consolidating because HireRight, Sterling, all those guys have about 12 to 18 months to figure out what the fuck they're doing with private equity and the acquisitions. You have a window now and hopefully some money in the bank to go consolidate, consolidate, consolidate, and hopefully make the dollars that you're saving worthwhile because that valuation is... Chad 3: Ridiculous. Joel: It makes life hard. We've talked about companies raising too much money. This is a case where Checkr raised too much money and now we're seeing the negative impacts of that, unfortunately for the employees. Chad 3: Good luck guys. [music] 4: Good topics. Joel: All right. LinkedIn has launched Connected TV or what the kids call CTV Chad ads and live event ads aiming to help marketers tap into the growing video consumption trend. CTV ads allow marketers to display video campaigns, campaigns on home TV sets, expanding, reach beyond the app, live event ads promote upcoming LinkedIn events in stream enhancing event awareness. These initiatives come as LinkedIn seeks to offer more video focused marketing options. Chad, is LinkedIn listening to our show? 'Cause we've been recommending them get more into videos. What are your thoughts on the news out of LinkedIn? Chad 3: Have we just become best friends? So there are two aspects I want take a look at here, and is first and foremost the platform itself and being able to target on the platform versus streaming. So, we'll take a look at LinkedIn first. So on LinkedIn's post about this move, they mention "reach, engage decision makers to help our customer's capture buyer's attention." Now, I mentioned last week that I thought LinkedIn and their latest moves were going to pivot toward marketing. And they are, knowing that those dollars available in those budgets are much larger, but would be in combination with the smaller recruitment advertising budget set. I mean, they're still going to... They're gonna have those products available. Last week, I thought they were going to go toward the B2C with the whole avocado thing that they've done before, but they didn't. They're focusing on B2B once again, the "reach engaged decision makers". So why is this smart? The value proposition goes through the roof when companies are selling higher revenue business products, which cost 100s of 1000s of dollars or millions of dollars per year versus the B2C market with avocados, Tommy John underwear and meal kits. Blue Apron meal kits the focus in revenue opportunity is much larger. Then I wanna talk about. Chad 3: The other aspect of this is, the, the streaming partnerships. So let's just take a look at Paramount Plus, 'cause they're talking about Paramount Plus, Roku, Samsung, and then also Universal Premium Streaming. So, paramount plus I watch Halo, mayor of Kingston, Kingstown, Tulsa, king Ray Donovan. They're all shows that I've enjoyed, but that seems like a huge separation from the B2B buyers on LinkedIn. How are they targeting decision makers with streaming? The short answer is they aren't. So, LinkedIn knows who the CEOs are and the business leaders are in their platform, but when they start to stream out, that's gonna be an issue. So they try to make these things one, right, we're going B2B, we're going B2B, and this is how we're getting larger distribution. One, the value proposition on the LinkedIn side of the house value proposition should be much higher because you're gonna be targeting leaders and people who actually make decisions versus the streaming aspect. I think it's interesting. I think it's definitely, a way forward. This was, I mean, the only LinkedIn news I've been excited about in the very long time. Joel: Yeah. My comment, we'll start with... Chad 3: [laughter] People can just become best friends. Joel: There's a big if, if they can pull this off. Chad 3: Yes. Joel: And you and I both know that LinkedIn don't have a great history of pulling things off. Effectively. Chad 3: They don't. They Don't. Joel: But there's a lot to be excited about this. Retargeting is something that most people, especially on the employment side, don't take advantage of. People don't understand that you can put like some code on your ATS and then serve ads on Instagram about working at your company. Like it, yeah I know agencies do it, but a lot of people just don't understand it. So the thought of having, placing an ad on LinkedIn and having retargeting code on your ATS or your site or your company site. And then having, based on that, if they can connect, I'm on LinkedIn, or I go to the website, and then I'm connected through my streaming service, that I'm watching a show. Chad 3: Right? Joel: And I've been to this site, and now I can see an ad from that company. So think about a job for a second. Say I'm really looking, somebody comes to LinkedIn, they're looking for sales jobs, and the company is posting a sales position. And now when they post the job, it says, Hey, would you like this ad to show up on, Tulsa King or whatever, or properties and you're targeting this? Maybe it's this age range, and this is who watches that show. It's... Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: I mean, the targeting could be really, really, really interesting. Most companies don't have the wherewithal to just say, yeah, let's put a video spot. Let's put a commercial on an ad. Now, what becomes really interesting to me is we've all seen these movies that are made on AI, where you just say like, show me a dog walking through a cornfield, blah, blah, blah. And it literally produces a dog walking through a cornfield. Joel: I don't know how I came up with a dog in a cornfield, but anyway, now imagine it's saying, okay, we'll create an ad based on the job posting you just put up. We have your company logo, because that's on your profile page. We have kind of what you do, where you're located, etcetera, and take all that data and create sort of a template ad, or maybe like, here are three ads that you can show touting the job position that's open at your company, and then redirect people, from that ad to go to LinkedIn and apply to the job. That becomes really interesting. If you can give a company. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: The power to automate commercials that are, that look great, that are AI produced. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: And automated LinkedIn can make a shit ton of money doing like rinse and repeating ads for jobs on these stations that people watch, and that goes into their open AI, relationship that goes into their Microsoft stuff. Chad 3: Think about targeting though, from those ads. You could have a multiple of ads. One could be that this person is a black female, and the target person in the ad is actually a black female. So you can see yourself. Joel: Sure. Chad 3: In that ad even more. So you could target those out even better. I... Joel: Sure. Chad 3: I can't see LinkedIn doing anything like that. Joel: You can't see them pulling this off. [laughter] Chad 3: I think that's a bridge too far for me. I'm just trying to get down to the basics here. And I'm having problems with them actually getting the basics done. Joel: Yeah. Chad 3: But yeah, I think that's probably a little bit much. [laughter] Joel: That is a future that employers would embrace because everybody would love to see their ad on it, on a show that people watch. They'd love to see like, oh, and then see who watched it and how many times it was seen and have people actually apply. Maybe a quick way to point, link, I don't know, point your camera and upload. I don't know how that would work, but easy apply through your phone while you're watching TV. Anyway, it's very exciting if they can pull it off. And it looks like, at least from your point of view, it's not gonna happen in that case. Well, it'll just be a big bummer of a news story. Chad 3: [laughter] Sorry to squash those dreams. Joel: Do It LinkedIn. Come on baby. Come on, come on. The Kool-Aid is getting little stale and it's starting to taste good again. Don't... Chad 3: Do The easy stuff. Okay. Get overtaken. Okay. Joel: All right. Maybe, maybe, maybe... Our next story. Let's talk tale of two companies. Chad 3: Yes. Joel: First off, Jobandtalent. Spanish based company whose 2023 revenue came in at $450 million with the US. Chad 3: Hello. Joel: Becoming the company's largest and fastest growing market. Chad 3: Yep. Joel: As well as its most profitable. And now for something completely different Job.com, who's been very quiet lately and whose most newsworthy achievement in 2024, so far as a CEO with a 7%, seven, not 77% Chad 3: Wow. Joel: Approval rating on Glassdoor. And you thought. Chad 3: Wow. Joel: Trump and Biden were crushing the favorability scores with a company rating, not much better of 19% approval featuring talk of major payroll issues. Chad, your thoughts on these two diverging companies? Chad 3: Yeah, so I mean, they're... Obviously, we can have the leadership discussion and probably have a whole fucking podcast around that. I'm gonna kind of put that to the side and just talk about model. Joel: Yep. Chad 3: It's talk a little bit about the models and we actually had Aaron Stewart, who is an amazing. Joel: Lovely guy. Chad 3: Presenter. Joel: Lovely guy. Chad 3: And pitcher. That guy... If you need somebody to pitch for you, that guy can pitch. But the model, and we actually... He was on stage with us in Austin where I think he lives in Texas. But he was on stage pitching and I just couldn't... You loved it to death. And I love him, but I just couldn't get the model. I couldn't absorb. Joel: Yeah. Chad 3: What they were gonna try to do, because their model at Job.com was to buy up staffing companies. Buy up staffing companies and infuse their tech into those staffing companies. Now, here's the big problem. Once you start buying staffing companies with a margin of 15 to 20 plus percent, to be able to take that money down to 2%, which is what they were talking about, is fucking ridiculous. That's never gonna happen. You have to flip it the other way around. And you have to become the operating system for said staffing companies for the industry. So now back to Jobandtalent. They have done some acquisitions of staffing companies. They haven't done as much as, as Job.com or yeah Job.com has. What they have done is they have created an operating system for staffing companies. And what does that mean? Very simply, there shouldn't be somebody on a phone every day talking to somebody about coming in for a warehouse fucking position. Chad 3: Those positions should be on an app that are automatically targeting individuals who have those skills. And in Jobandtalent, it's very simple. You go in, you answer a few questions. Well, first off, you can take a look at all the jobs that are available in your area. You can click the one that you want, you can ask a few questions, you can get the job right then, you get the job right then, okay, now this job could be a shift or it could be the job itself. And that's the beauty about this whole market is that if I'm already working at Amazon, but yet I wanna pick up a shift at another warehouse or something like that, I can go on Jobandtalent. I can make a little side hustle cash. If I'm a nurse and I want to pick up a little bit more cash, although everybody's... Everything, the schedules are full at the hospital that I work with or the clinic that I work with, I can look at another one that's in the next city or country or county, or not country. County close to me. Chad 3: And I can go and I can do that. This is where work is moving from a shift standpoint. And the problem is Job.com, they couldn't make that happen because of the revenue models. 20% to 2%. Jobandtalent, who's coming from Europe is smashing them. Smashing them. And how many companies come to the US and smash it? Not many. Joel: Not very many. It typically doesn't work out very well, Chad. 5: 60% of the time. It works every time. Joel: By the way, if I was gonna tell you, you have the choice of picking Job.com or Jobandtalent with an ampersand in between the two, which do you think will be the more successful company you would automatically think Job.com would? Look, tell me if you've heard this story before. Cool name, colorful founder. Chad 3: Pets.com. Joel: [laughter] Jobster, those that remember Jobster. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: Very colorful. Chad 3: Oh yeah. Joel: Little more abrasive. Chad 3: Jason. Much like Aaron. Joel: Yes. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: But a Carnival Barker. I think you've called both of of them. Chad 3: Oh, yeah. Joel: At some point. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: Great sales guys. Uh. Big personalities. Little bit of direction challenge with both. What are we gonna be when we grow up? If you remember, Job.com had some credit card thing that they gave like, [laughter] it was really confusing and they pivoted to. Chad 3: That's how they paid people. Joel: Yeah, I mean. Chad 3: They paid it through the credit card. Joel: Yeah. Chad 3: And Jobandtalent. What do you do? You pay through the App? Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Credit card versus app. Very apropos. Chad 3: Hello. Joel: Comparison there. Yeah. So, and then to go into the other Jason Goldberg a Jobster was lucky enough to not have glassdoor, when he was apparently threatening people. And I was covering this when I was blogging back in the day. They had a... Joel: Yeah. 1: Amazing team. I can't say that Job.com has an amazing team. 'Cause I don't know most of them, but. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: Poorly, poorly received. CEO, people are unhappy. There were probably issues with paying people at Jobster. What's... Like, layoffs, things like that. Now, if you look at Job.com's insights like headcount has remained pretty steady. My guess is that's because of the acquisitions. They keep adding headcount by buying these companies. But there's clearly trouble in the house. Joel: And when you have trouble in the house, like it just spills over into everything. Jobandtalent, regardless of the name, has somehow figured out the sauce of ease of use. Young people understand, this is the way that I wanna work. Give me my phone. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: Let me apply, let me work, get paid through that. And that just seems to work where people like Snap, Snagajob, Snag, not Snap, Snagajob. Chad 3: Snag. Yep. Joel: They were gonna try this. A few others. So yeah. Tale of two companies. I mean, I think you look inside management, it just seems to be a mess at Job.com, which is unfortunate. We both like Aaron a lot. I don't know what's going on there. We haven't heard from them in a long time, where we used to hear from them all the time about what's going on. Joel: Let me tell you about what we're doing. They're very, very quiet. And then we have this company coming out of Spain and just kicking ass and showing a lot of companies, how it's done. I'm wondering how like a Jobcase is looking at Jobandtalent success and saying, where did we, where can we catch this lightning? How do... 'Cause they have a lot of users and I don't know Yeah. How they're monetizing it, but... Chad 3: Yeah. Shifts. Joel: Jobcase might wanna look at Jobandtalent and how do we change our model into something more, Payable. Chad 3: Or Jobandtalent might wanna look at Jobcase from an acquisition standpoint. Joel: That's true too, that's true too. Chad 3: Just because of the size. Joel: They've raised a billion three. Chad 3: Yeah. The staffing industry in the US alone is $218 billion dollars. Joel: Yeah. Chad 3: Billion dollars. So the ability for a Jobandtalent to buy into a Jobcase that has a humongous fucking community already. Joel: Yeah. Yep. Chad 3: I think that's a very good call, Cheesman. Joel: That could be interesting. Yeah. Well, thank you. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: Thank you. Do you like that one better than StepStone buying Career Builder? Chad 3: Oh, yes. Yeah. This one makes sense. This one makes sense, Chad. [laughter] 5: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: All right, Chad, I first read this as a Marvel story when it said Multiverse, but no, no, it's not a, it's not a Marvel story. London based Multiverse, which claims to deliver a new kind of apprenticeship that combines education, work, and technology has acquired San Fran based Searchlight, which says it provides a bias free AI that filters top applicants by relevant work experience, hard skills and soft skills. Terms were not disclosed. Searchlight had previously raised $19.5 million and employs 16 people, while Multiverse has raised $418 million and employs a little over 1000 folks. Chad, your thoughts on the Multiverse Searchlight deal? Chad 3: Yeah, I see this much like Workday's acquisition of HiredScore. Workday hadn't a fucking clue about AI in training large language models, which means they didn't know how to explain and or defend them. Athena and the team at HiredScore lived and breathed it. So the tech and the acquisition made sense. In this case, Multiverse fills a gap with the Searchlight acquisition. In the same way Multiverse gains a platform geared toward IO science, culture data, hiring outcomes, basic auditing. And they've got a ton of integrations with different, different applicant tracking system platforms that are out there. I know trying to go out and actually hire individuals to build something like this for a platform that is going to take a very long time and a hell of a lot of money. This is a shortcut for them. Chad 3: Not just from the standpoint of a tech, from a tech standpoint, but also from a people standpoint, from an expertise in-house standpoint. To me, this makes a hell of a lot of sense. And since last November during Multiverse layoffs, they laid off about 30 people. Founder Euan Blair. That's right. Tony Blair's kid, stated that the US business didn't meet revenue targets and required too much financial investment. And that Multiverse would have to focus on a more tailored approach in specific sectors for the US market, which is what we talk about on every show, just about. Almost weekly. Target a sector, knock it out of the park, then expand. Now they're feeding their data into Searchlight to accelerate that process in scale in those targeted sectors, meaning they can expand much faster. So again, if you take a more focused approach, how do you get to expansion faster? This is how you do it. You expand within that sector first and then you explode out. This is, I think, a smart acquisition for them and necessary. 5: Another One. Joel: So you stole a lot of my thunder on this one. Particularly the Tony Blair relationship or relation there. I was hoping that you wouldn't mention that. So I could drop that one. Chad 3: My Bad. My bad. Joel: I could drop that Although the Searchlight founders are twins. So you didn't mention that. So I will mention that. Chad 3: Yes, yeah. Joel: They're twin ladies. Chad 3: I was kind of eerie looking at that. Was saying did a... Is that an AI thing or? No. No, they're actually twin Chad. Joel: They will be a founding team of AI, that's a billion dollar company one day. I've heard that on, on a podcast somewhere. The one thing for me is that Multiverse has been around since... They're on year eight. Chad 3: Yep. Joel: They've been around for a while. They're not profitable, the US I don't think is going the way, that they had hoped that it would. And they should be killing it. I mean, apprenticeships and that business should be doing very, very well. Chad 3: Yep. Joel: Very. So someone said, I'm sure let's get some tech in here. Let's get some people who know tech, not just Tony Blair's, is it his son? His son? Chad 3: Kid. Kid, yeah. Joel: Yeah. Just, okay, we've got a famous guy now we need people who know what the hell they're doing. So both founders are going to be an executive positions, with the company, which means they'll be helping drive the ship, which I think is good. They're not like leaving. It sounds like they're gonna be in it, at least for the next year. So. Chad 3: Yeah, lock them in. Joel: So, yeah. So lock them in. If they can bring people that know what they're doing. Bring San Francisco talent and Silicon Valley folks into this company. That has raised a ton of money. They were unicorn at one point. I don't know if they still are, but you have a lot of money. You have a high profile founder, now you have technology, you have people that know what they're doing there. They're Y Combinator, darling actually, some of the news stories that I read. So yes, it'll make sense. I mean, the apprenticeship thing with high tech stuff, there may be some growing pains there, but I think ultimately... Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: This is a much better chance of succeeding than Workday sucking up a company like HiredScore. I give this a lot better, chances of success because you don't have a Workday bureaucracy to deal with. Chad 3: Yeah. Multiverse is still a fairly flexible, small, company in relation to Workday. Chad 3: Totally agree. Totally agree. Joel: All right, Let's get to one of my favorite games. I think it's one of your favorite games as well. Chad 3: 2:00 AM in the bar. Who'd you rather? Joel: Who'd You rather everybody. Here we go. All right. Here's how we play. We talk about two companies, startups that have recently gotten funding and Chad and I choose who we'd rather. Let's play first up. We've got New York City based Summer, a workplace student loan solution provider. They've raised $9 million in funding led by Rebalance Capital and SemperVirens. The funds will be used to expand the team and enhance the technology. Summer partners with employers to provide student loan and education assistant benefits. That is Summer and corner number one. Corner number two, we have Cariloop. A Richardson, Texas-based provider of a caregiver support platform. They've raised $20 million in Series C funding. The company helps families manage their care needs by connecting them to an employer-sponsored solution. Cariloop coaches provide professional support while its digital platform offers resources and tools to support caregiving. Chad, that is Cariloop and Summer. Who'd You rather? Chad 3: I'm gonna start with Cariloop. So 43 million in total funding and have been around for 12 years. They've created a marketplace for caregivers with a concierge service built in. And since most people have no clue what fucking services are available, let alone which ones that would fit for them and their needs. Cariloop could be pretty much the technical infrastructure and operating system for partners and healthcare solutions nationwide. On the other hand, Summer, the only student repayment solution as a benefit I want to hear about is how companies can take on the burden themselves. I'm not interested in another scheme that puts a new shade of lipstick on the fucking corporate welfare pig. So it's 2:00 AM in the morning in the club, it's bumping. Who would I'd rather? I'd rather Cariloop. 5: What are you doing stepbro? Joel: All right. Cariloop. So both of these hit home, for me. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: I had student debt and I have parents... Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: That I could help give care to. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: The question for me is, partly is who's in office? 'Cause Biden is really good about excusing student loans. And if that trend continues, we may not have a need for a company called Summer because no one will have student debt. No. We'll still have student debt, but yes, I want to hear about tax benefits for companies that pay off student loans or maybe match student loan payments. Chad 3: Yes. Joel: Let's get creative around this folks. Like also on the other end of not... Reducing the cost of college, that's a bigger question than I think corporate initiatives. But let's have something... Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: That incentivizes a company to help pay off student debt for their employees. To me, that is more exciting than let's just hire a company or buy a solution that people can then access and hopefully help, pay down stuff. Now on the care stuff, baby boomers, 77 million people, 10,000 people a day are retiring. That means sickness, that means care. That means, assisted living, that means hospice. Like these are real issues for me. Chad 3: Yes. Joel: So I know there are big issues for... Chad 3: Everyday Americans. Joel: A lot of other people. Chad 3: Yes. Joel: And that also I think you could also carry, does childcare come into this? I don't know. But definitely on the aging parent thing, would I like to hire professionals to help me through that? Would I like to have that benefit as someone who has parents to deal with. So for me as well, like, I think they both deserve some applause, but yeah. Maybe it's age bias or where... I paid off my student loan 20 years ago, so I haven't really had to deal with that lately. Whereas I have an 84-year-old dad. So just recency bias. I think I'm also... 5: I'm happy. Joel: Picking Cariloop at the corner of the bar. Stepping on the sticky floor. Sticky floor. All right. That is another game of who'd you rather, we're gonna take a quick break and come back and talk a little automation. Joel: All right. Chad, Waymo and Uber. Technically Uber Eats are teaming up to launch automated Uber Eats in Waymo's Phoenix service area. Customers can opt for a robot delivery from select merchants, though they'll need to meet the vehicle outside to collect their order. No word yet if Chipotle is participating in this test market. 5: Oh my God, I love Chipotle... [overlapping conversation] Joel: But, Chipotle, we'll let you know when we find out. Chad, what are your thoughts on Waymo's marriage with Uber Eats? Chad 3: I think Waymo is definitely not the product for this. I mean, they're also partnering with Serve Robotics, which is one of those the smaller... Joel: They're 2D2. Yeah. Chad 3: Kinda like robots and go down the sidewalk. Yeah, I see those in cities. I don't see those like in rural areas where they can get beat up by baseball bats and shit like that. But, there's also Nuro, N-U-R-O, these are autonomous vehicles that are really, they're built for this. The Waymo cars are literally just built for humans to be inside. So they're great for taxis, but in this case, I think the Nuro and the little sidewalk robot are probably the smart way to go. And maybe, I don't know, we'll see some evolution of this, but I think this is really interesting. The big question is, do you care? 'Cause you currently get stuff that's delivered to your doorstep, and all you have to do is go out. Somebody delivers it to you. Joel: Oh yeah. Chad 3: You take it. Joel: It's lovely. Chad 3: But this one, you got to go out to the... You gotta put your shoes on. You gotta go out to the driveway. And I know this sounds fucking lazy, but you gotta do all those things. Open the door. It should be in the trunk. So they pop the trunk, you get the food out of the trunk, you close the trunk, and then you go back in. Is this something that you think you're gonna do? Or you're just gonna... [overlapping conversation] Joel: I would love if they have the buffet heat light in the trunk if they're keeping my food warm or not, by the way, Chad, if there's a barbacoa bowl in that trunk, I'm walking through a snake pit. Chad 3: You don't care. Joel: And an alligator. Chad 3: Okay. Joel: Yeah. To get my barbacoa bowl. Interestingly... Chad 3: Walking Through Australia. Joel: Yeah. And if there's some, if there's a bloom and onion in there, God damn it I'm fighting off, I'm fighting off Vikings and, Roman, soldiers. But we're gonna be in Phoenix, next week for the Paradox. Chad 3: Yes. Joel: Analyst meeting. And I'm gonna try this out. I'm gonna download Waymo. I'm gonna be like, take me to In-N-Out. So I'm gonna try the taxi service out. The people who have tried it that I've talked to really love it. Chad 3: Oh, yeah. Joel: So why not deliver food as part of, oh, you've already downloaded the app as our YouTube viewers can see. Check that out at youtube.com/atChadChees. Anyway, I'm a fan dude. Now I feel kind of bad. So now there's an employee that's gonna have to go take the food out to the car. Whereas today, like DoorDash goes into the restaurant and then takes so someone to pick it up. Joel: Some poor slob, flipping burgers is gonna have to like, go out to the Waymo and put the food in, and then say like, go. And then, yes, I'm gonna have to go get it. Now the good thing is the tips are refunded if you choose the Waymo. Chad 3: Yes. Joel: So I think as a consumer, more people than not will choose to have to go out to the street than. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: Pay the tip. Now that's in my suburb area. If I live in a 50 story building, I may not want to go down and, and get my food. But for the suburbs baby. Chad 3: Yeah. Joel: Bring my barbacoa bowl. Get the buffet heating light. I'm hungry. We out. Chad 3: We out. SFX: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal and Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead now. Go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

In this episode, the boys discuss the recent upgrades at Indeed, including the revamped user profile page and the introduction of AI-powered writer and smart sourcing suites. They also talk about LinkedIn's testing of TikTok-style video options. Chad criticizes Indeed for focusing on the top of the funnel and not moving down the funnel to provide better data for matching candidates. Joel sees Indeed's upgrades as a direct response to LinkedIn's shortcomings and believes that the video feature will increase engagement and interest from advertising agencies. In this episode, Chad and Joel discuss various topics including the potential for LinkedIn to compete with Twitter for advertising dollars, the buy or sell game featuring MetaView, Modal, and Home from College, the impact of minimum wage laws on fast food workers, Amazon's decision to replace its Just Walk Out technology with smart carts, and Apple's exploration of mobile robots for the home. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah, two guys sharing a drink called "loneliness," but it's better than drinking alone. Hi, kids, it's The Chad and Cheese podcast, I'm your cohost, Joel "solar eclipse" Cheesman. Chad: This is Chad "girl power" Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, LinkedIn, TikToks, Indeed Sources, and Amazon just walks out, plus, buy or sell. Let's do this. Have you heard, there's a big event in Indiana on Monday called the solar eclipse? Chad: Yeah, we've got a little town here, Columbus, Indiana, 40,000 people, and this weekend, we're supposed to have 250,000 people because we are in the direct path. It's fucking crazy. Joel: My aunt in Little Seymour, which is smaller than Columbus, they're expecting like a hundred thousand people. It'll be great for the economy, that's for sure. I hope the weather cooperates. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I mean, no matter what, it's not like people aren't gonna buy shit, right? It was funny, I was going through physical therapy this morning, the whole shoulder thing, and everybody was talking about getting your groceries, getting... It was almost like an apocalypse. Well, you gotta make sure you get your groceries, gotta get your stuff, get in... I'm like, why? I mean, you're like, well, you won't be able to get groceries. Everybody's gonna buy everything out. Joel: Four Minutes of night. Middle of the day is gonna destroy everything. As listeners know, my wife is a scientist, professor, so we're having a get-together, you don't really have parties at our age, we're having a get-together. And Sun King, a popular brewery here in Central Indiana, has an eclipse beer. Chad: They all do. Joel: I don't know what it's called, we have... It's crazy, yeah, we have two growlers ready to rock for Tuesday, we've got the glasses, yeah, yeah. I'm calling it the "Joeler eclipse." Chad: That's so bad, so bad. So how was Easter, real quick? All good? Joel: Easter Was good, Easter was also Jeremy's birthday, my now seven-year-old. So Easter was Godzilla versus King Kong. Chad: That's awesome. Joel: Or they're actually teaming up for fights. Monsters killing each other, it's great. Chad: Love it. Joel: Easter egg hunt. Had my 84-year-old dad come over, we had, by Jeremy's choice, Pizza Sammy's, select big grinders with pepperoni and pizza and cheese, which is fine with me. Chad: And Calzone. Joel: And that was it. How about you? Chad: Yeah, I went down to Clarksville, Tennessee. My brother and sister-in-Law are getting ready to move to Australia, I can't wait to go visit them. So we visit them and their three young boys. So that was a good time. And literally on Easter, we started drinking like at 10:00 AM and we didn't stop all through the day, beermosas, I mean, you name it, so. Joel: Nice. Chad: Other brother-in-Law actually did a big-as brisket and ribs, and so yeah, it was pretty awesome, it was a good send-off, let's just say that. Joel: Yeah, well, I didn't hear from you on Monday, so I assumed that you were either hung over or recovering from brisket overdose. Chad: Traveling back and trying not to fall asleep at the wheel with all that fucking brisket on my stomach. Joel: Do you have a favorite Tennessee whiskey? Chad: No, I don't, I'm not a big Tennessee whiskey fan, and there are so many bourbons in Kentucky, I just haven't pushed past it. Not to mention, I'm really looking forward to, we'll talk about this later, kids, our trip to Scotland. Joel: Yeah, tease. I like Bib & Tucker, try it out if you haven't, if you like the whiskeys. Bib & Tucker, and it's a cool bottle. Chad: Bib & Tucker. Joel: And cool bottle as well. All right. SFX: Shout-out. Chad: All right, we're gonna go first shout-out, kid, to Sebastian Dettmers, the CEO over at StepStone. So earlier this week, he posted the following on LinkedIn, "After much contemplation, I've decided to embark on a digital detox journey, and we'll be going offline for the next three months. During my absence, all standard internal and external inquiries will be in the capable, virtual hands of chatGPT, courtesy of an innovative AI CEO partnership with OpenAI." So the post goes on, but after reading this, I reached out to a couple of friends at, and I was still loopy from Easter by the way, at StepStone and Appcast. I was like, dude, what the fuck? And I got nothing but laughing emojis, and he got you. Yes, it was an April fools' joke, and yes, Sebastian, you got me, my friend, you got me. Good job. Good job on that one. I fucking hate April Fools. Joel: Maybe he's been listening to this show because we've talked about CEOs going away and being replaced by AI. So it wasn't that out of the norm for us, it was good to see something like that. Good job. Chad: That was good. That was good. That's good, that's good. Joel: My first shout-out, I'm sure you saw, Taiwan had a big earthquake this week. Chad: Yeah. Massive. Joel: And I was amazed at how well the infrastructure Handled it. They have a huge building, that was fine, bridges, it was pretty, pretty well maintained. There were a few buildings, but the buildings that fell didn't like collapse into dust, they fell off the base, most of the people were saved, it was just... Shout-out to Taiwan and their infrastructure, in contrast to us, one boat hit the base of a bridge and the whole whole thing falls down like a bridge of toothpicks. I don't know if it's too late for the infrastructure bill, but the USA is in dire need of some Taiwanese engineering. Chad: Yeah, I think any of those buildings that would've gotten hit by a container ship would've gone down. My shout-out to Girl Power, that's right. The AP is reporting that Women's Final Four tickets are on the resale market, selling for an average of, get ready, kids, $2300, which is twice as much as the Men's Final Four. And you've got Caitlyn Clark from Iowa to thank for that, Camilla over at South Carolina. God, she is big and she is like the Shaq of NCAA basketball for women. Paige Beckers, Angel Reese. But Friday matches are Iowa against Connecticut, South Carolina against North Carolina State. It's pretty awesome because I know that you remember going to girls basketball games, and like the scores would be 35 to 12, right? It was excruciating watching girls basketball, but now I like watching the girls play more than I do the dudes. It's amazing. Joel: Yeah. And to your point, that was a high-scoring affair if it was 35 to 12, that was a banger, baby, back in the day. Chad: A banger. Joel: Totally. So I have friends in Cleveland, where the Final Four is, and I can confirm that they have reached out or tried to get some second-market tickets, aftermarket tickets. And the cheapest that they found was $800 a ticket, and this is a professional arena, this isn't like a high school gym. Chad: Like 20,000. Joel: This is legit. So huge. And I'm gonna mess up some of these, but the viewership of the Iowa LSU game topped, I think the Grammys, like every award show, most of the NBA playoff games, really big viewership, and I think it's fantastic. Chad: There's a rematch of last year's final. Joel: Rematch. But great characters, great story with those two. Caitlyn Clark is very likely to be the first pick coming to Indiana next year. And as an Indiana resident, I can't be more excited to have her. They also had the first pick last year, so they could be a juggernaut of a WNBA team, they're gonna sell out the arena, which is amazing. They might outsell the Pacers on average per game, per seat. Chad: Probably not hard, but yeah. Joel: Yeah, I mean, the Pacers are pretty good still, but yeah. Chad: That's too bad, yeah. Joel: So my shout-out piggybacks on that. I think this has been the most fun March madness that I can remember a long time. And a lot of it isn't the... Even the NCAA, you mentioned the women's basketball, which I echo. The NIT is one of the most fun tournaments that I've seen in a while. Now, indiana State hasn't done anything since Larry Bird was there in the '70s, they're the number one seed, they should have been in the NCAA. But I'm glad they're not because now they're playing in the Final Four, which is in Indiana, they're playing in Butler, which if you're a midWesterner Hoosier, this is like folklore, this is Marlin, the movie Hoosiers, this is a really old, historic arena. Indiana State's basically gonna be the home team. In this thing, they beat Utah and they play Seton Hall, I think, for the championship, so it's like a biggie school playing Indiana State. That's so much fun. Joel: And they have this guy, his name is Robbie Avila, and he wears these throwback goggles, like Kareem used to wear, and Worthy. And he's about 6'9", I think, white guy. Oh, he's mixed, he's like half Hispanic, half white, and he has the best nicknames. His nicknames include "Cream," Abdul-Jabbar, not Kareem, but cream like cream soda. "Larry Nerd," Larry Bird, and "Milk Chamberlain" is another one, so great nicknames there. And then you got... And then you got DJ Horn at NC State. You mentioned the big folks in the middle, this guy, he's listed at 275. He hasn't seen 275 since eighth grade, I don't know where the hell they're getting that, but this dude has got personality, he's fun. NC State is a underdog. Purdue's in it. Purdue is like one All American and a bunch of Indiana gym rats, so that's fun to watch, a throwback to teams of the '80s and '70s. But, I think, shout-out to... Shout-out to March Madness, if last month was Six Nations, this month has been March Madness, and it's been a hell of a lot of fun. Chad: Amen, amen. Well, a shout-out. Last shout-out goes to free stuff, that's right, free t-shirts from Aaron App, free beer and whiskey that are coming to your front door, beer from AspenTech Labs, Whiskey from Textkernel, one bottle from Joel, one bottle from me. And if it's your birthday, could win rum from our pals at Plum. SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: Alright, a few listeners are celebrating another trip around the sun, eclipse, solar eclipse, I don't know, I don't know if there's any tie in there. Todd Burns, Amy English, Arno Schaefer, Derek Christensen, Rob McIntosh, Louis Nobreck, and Patrick York. SFX: Happy birthday! Joel: There we go. All celebrate a birthday this week, happy birthday to you guys. Chad: Excellent. Well, I'm not gonna be going anywhere for the eclipse because we're getting ready to go to Vegas, my friend, we're getting ready to go to Vegas. Joel: Yes, we are. Yes, we are. Joel: Unleash America is coming to Las Vegas again, May 7th through the 9th. The day before on March 6th, Joel and I are gonna get high. No, not that kind of high, we're going to the top of the stratosphere and we're jumping over 800 feet to earth with our friend Matt Bauer, the CEO from Outhire, that's right. Outhire. What's more is that Outhire is paying for our listeners to join us do the jump. So if you want to register to win or nominate maybe your boss or a friend to jump with us, go to chadcheese.com, it's right there in the hero header. Click the Jump With Us button right on the homepage. Register and come see us then. Come see us fall to earth. Then on Tuesday, May 7th, this is where Kibu comes in, we're heading to the Minus5 bar with Job Pixel and great people. More details to come, but I'm telling you right now, we're gonna feel like we're in Finland, it's gonna be cold, we're gonna have the big fluffy jackets, I guarantee you. And then last but not least, on May 8th, we're joining our friends over at Plum, at the neon boneyard, you love Little Neon, here's Little Chad and Cheese Neon, where we're gonna be drinking, eating, and basking in the evening glow of Las Vegas's iconic retired neon signs. You know those old neon signs that you thought they got rid of? Oh, they didn't get rid of them, kids, they're all in a neon boneyard. Google "neon boneyard." Check it out, it is freaking awesome. Us there with our friends from Plum, it's gonna be a great unleash. Joel: It is gonna be great, but I heard nothing after, jumping to your death, from your first segment. I'm trying... So there's a weight limit of 265, I think. I'm trying to... I'm gonna see how many burritos it takes to get to a point where I get on the scale and they're like, dude, you're too heavy, sorry, sorry. And if not, I need to invest in some Depends because I'm going to shit my pants when I jump... When I jump off this thing. Oh God, is that it for announcements? Chad: That's it. Joel: Alright, we got some red meat for the listeners this week. Indeed has revamped its user profile page, introducing an AI-powered writer to enhance work experience descriptions and supporting multiple resumes. It also launched smart sourcing suites for recruiters, including AI powered candidate summaries and custom messages aiming to reduce relevant outreach and streamline hiring processes. Chad, what are your thoughts from the latest upgrades at Indeed? Chad: This is nothing more than just window dressing at the top of the funnel. Why is Indeed making more of an effort to move down funnel? AI resumes, full of hallucinations and easy applies, that's a recipe for fucking disaster. How does any of that help companies find the right candidates? Well, it just doesn't. So if Indeed wanted to make a real impact, they would move down funnel, partner with platforms like Tavio or HackerRank to start gathering skills and performance data that actually matters. Coding tests, performance tests, gather the data that employers actually fucking need. Also, from this article, I thought it was interesting, talent.com was mentioned in the story as a competitor. Joel: It was, yeah. Chad: I mean, come on, man, so many of these aggregators are just Indeed, PilotFish, they're collecting the crumbs, they're not innovating, they're not moving the needle, and they're definitely not competitors. So if you, talent.com and "competitors," if you wanna compete with Indeed, beat them to the punch, go down funnel, collect the data that employers and LLMs, yes, large language models, will use to make relevant matches better. The reason why I hate on Indeed so hard is because they have the means to change this industry, and yet they're changing the drapes in the fucking basement. For example, interview scheduling, they talk about interview scheduling in this. In 2024, interview scheduling should be a fucking afterthought, when a candidate applies for a job, answer some prescreening, prequal questions they should meet... If they meet the requirements, they should have an "Interview now" button that pops up and it takes you directly to a qualify, a pillar, or a vet for interview. I mean, we should be cutting corners, as opposed to just playing the window dressing game. And that's all Indeed's doing, and I fucking hate that. S7: 60% of the time. It works every time. Chad: Tell us how you really feel, Chad. Chad: Both barrels. Joel: So I view this as, Google came out and struck out against the job board industry and job postings. And that seems to be alleviated for the most part. Like Google has said, we're not getting into pay-per-click, we'll let you guys still put your job postings in our search. So now it's like, what's the other front of Indeed's war that they need to think about? And that's LinkedIn, in my opinion. So to me, both of these updates are reactions to what LinkedIn is failing to do or has effectively crushed outside of its walled garden. So with job search, LinkedIn job search sucks, it's related searches or recommendations are awful. So if I'm Indeed, I already have a better job search than LinkedIn does, so what does LinkedIn do that I can do better? Well, on LinkedIn, I can have generally one profile, right? And now Indeed comes out with, oh, now you can have five resumes, so if you want one to be focused on a specific skill, you can, if you want another resume, a specific... Personally, this can go really bad, five resumes per person. Chad: It's stupid. Joel: But at least in theory, it's a strike against LinkedIn because LinkedIn only has one profile. So that is a differentiator, whether it's worthy or not of competing with LinkedIn, I guess we'll find out, but it is a move to go after LinkedIn. I think the bigger product or upgrade is the sourcing tool, which, from at least one insider that I talked to at Indeed, they're really focused on the sourcing stuff, they're really batting down the hatches, all hands on deck kind of thing. Chad: Well, that's a LinkedIn thing. They want to take away recruiter seats. Joel: And that's exactly a LinkedIn thing. So we've talked about LinkedIn effectively crushing every other third-party solution that uses its data. The SeekOuts of the world, the Hiretools, the hire... He's like... So Indeed has said, look, we can't let LinkedIn just own this sourcing thing, we have a hell of a lot of resumes too, so how do we keep people in our ecosystem searching our resumes and then sourcing, effectively messaging, et cetera, to those people? So this entire move for me from Indeed is a strike at LinkedIn. I think the sourcing is really interesting, I think the job search, like you said, is lipstick on a pig, but they've got LinkedIn in their sights, clearly, and I don't think this is the last strike that they're going to make on LinkedIn. Chad: Well, how you make sourcing better is better data for better matches. We already know their matching is shit, it's probably not as bad as LinkedIn's, but their matching is already shit. They need better data to be able to bump up against. Having five resumes is fucking stupid. I mean, it's like back to the future. How many pieces of shit can we throw out there for people to actually look at? I don't care. What I care is, do they meet the requirements, and do they have the skills, and can they perform? That's it, right? And then go ahead and get me right into the interview, and at that point, we can see if there's a match, okay? That's it, guys, it's that fucking simple. But what they're doing is they're playing up top, at the top of the funnel. And that doesn't fucking matter. None of it matters. None of it matters, so go down funnel. And again, for all the talent.coms that are out there, the Adzunas, I mean, even companies who don't even look like Indeed competitors, go down funnel, get that data because the market is all about the large language models and being able to grind that data pool, that new data that LinkedIn doesn't have, that Indeed doesn't have, get that data so you win. Joel: I don't think Chad's impressed, everybody. I don't think Chad's impressed at all. Chad: You don't think... You don't? Joel: Let's get to LinkedIn's news and see if that impresses you. LinkedIn is testing TikTok-style video options aiming to help users discover timely videos. The feature will appear next to the "Home" button and resembles TikTok and Instagram Reels. LinkedIn plans to provide more information about the new service very soon. So Chad, are you ready to karaoke and dance to LinkedIn's TikTok competitor? Chad: They had a version of Instagram Reels at one time, and then they just trashed that, why are they doing this? I mean, is TikTok stealing stickiness from them? Do they see that TikTok has stickiness that they want? And we talked about last week, it feels like Indeed is going more toward trying to be sticky for advertising dollars, right? To be able to keep people on platform, to be able to get those advertising dollars. And one of the things that we also talked about was that LinkedIn doesn't stick with some of these big projects that they put in place, they need to hire someone with discipline, focused, and damned patience, for God's sake. Some of the ideas actually do make sense if they're implemented well, but right now, I put our videos on TikTok and then I put the same ones on LinkedIn already, so I mean, I don't understand how this is gonna change behavior at all. Joel: So a couple of weeks ago, I mentioned that I thought LinkedIn bailed on video too soon, they've already tried you said, Reels, I would have called them sort of Snapchat stories, that they quickly got rid of. And I feel like with our video experience, our shorts, and you're seeing more and more shorts because every podcasting platform will create shorts for you... So we're gonna see more of that in every industry, and bailing on that was a bad idea because you could have seen where the world was going, and bailing on it was the wrong decision. It looks like now they're gonna basically relaunch some sort of video shorts system, they'll probably have it more in the main feed, they won't just have it as circles at the top that are out of the main feed area. It'll increase engagement, it'll increase interest in advertising. Agencies love these videos, small companies can make these videos really quickly. AI is gonna make a lot more videos, some of these shorts. So I think it's a good move. They never should have got out of it, in my opinion. Joel: Now, the second thing they need to do is the live video stuff because they're awful at it and they should be really good at it. By all accounts, you have to use a third party to even stream on LinkedIn, they should have their own thing. And by the way, X, which I know you love, is getting better at the live video, live conversations, and that is gonna be something that LinkedIn needs to do well. So this is the first step into video, they need to work out like having webinars and podcasts like this live, live streamed on LinkedIn. And I think they've got something that's pretty interesting. Otherwise, let's hope they don't bail on this like they did... The stories that they had six months to a year ago. Chad: Yeah, well, I see, once again, on the advertising side of the house, this gives another vehicle to be able to do ads, right? So not just for us to be able to do podcast snippets or shorts or what have you, but this is going to allow ads, those guacamole ads that we saw, that were static guacamole ads, we're gonna get a commercial on LinkedIn. So again, I really see this turning into more of an advertising platform and literally pivoting in some respects away from the recruitment space because there's a hell of a lot more money in advertising, if they can hold on to those recruiter seats, which we all know HR is really fucking slow to move in the first place, but then also go after the very quick hit of the marketing side of the house, then that does make sense. We'll see if it works, though. Joel: Look, historically, LinkedIn sucks at advertising. I mean, they still have those little like box ads on the right. It's like, come on. So yeah getting something video, something interactive, every agency will say, let's give LinkedIn another look, where we haven't done anything on there in a long time, so. Chad: Take that Twitter money, that Twitter... We've seen reports where they have actually taken Twitter money... And I say "they," those are companies who used to spend money on Twitter, and they want to spend it on platforms like LinkedIn. LinkedIn wants to give them the opportunity so that they can get that fucking Twitter cash. Joel: Yep, and integrating into advertising platforms. Look, companies are going to want to make a single TikTok ad. And how do I put it on Twitter? How do I put it on LinkedIn? So they want to be able to shotgun it everywhere. And LinkedIn needs to have something that they can put their ad... Joel: All right, let's take a quick break. Joel: All right, Chad, it's buy or sell, you know how we play the game, we listen to three companies that have recently gotten money and we read a summary and then we either buy or sell the company. And for whatever reason, I can't find my boxer. Oh, there it is. There it is, all right. All right. Now I'm in the mood to play some buy or sell. All right, number one, we got London-based Metaview, one of your faves from a recent firing squad, they're an AI assistant for streamlining hiring processes. They've raised $7 million in funding, the funds will accelerate product development and the team growth. They say they're already saving teams at least 20 hours per hire. Chad, you weren't much of a fan, like I said, but they're giving you 7 million new reasons why you should change your mind, buy or sell Metaview. Chad: Yeah, it's funny because we spoke with Jason Corsello earlier this week from Acadian Ventures, and he was talking about... On the seed side, there's a lot of... It's hot, there's a lot of money that's going to be spent on the seed side because people want to spend that money. You said it last week, just on the IPO side, right? So people want to spend money. But in a world of generative AI, platforms like Google, Microsoft, Anthropic, Mistral, and Meta are going to win unless, unless you have the secret sauce, and that secret sauce is years of data, like, for example, ATS and CRM companies, behavioral data. Metaview is way too late to the party, the beer's gone, all the hot chicks are passed out, the one thing Metaview has going for them is a great CEO, and that's not enough for me, it's still... Even with those 7 million reasons, it's still a sell for me. Joel: All right, Chad. And interview intelligence is hot, I don't know if you've heard it. I hang out with a lot of kids that are talking about interview intelligence a lot. Now, I think some solutions that have been around a while, BrightHire, full disclosure, I'm an advisor, Honeit have evolved this thing a lot longer, I think, or further along than Metaview is. But it's a wave that is going to get a lot of attention and funding, and it's going to be an acquisition target for somebody in the next two to three years. So if the mission is, sell this thing at 7 million, could they sell it for 50? I guess we'll see BrightHire probably go off first. Hineit's been around a while. Nick must just love running that business and not selling it. But for me, I think it's a buy, I think it's a wave that is easy to surf, even though the surfer in this case is maybe not the best surfer in the world. But for me, yeah, I gotta... S8: What are you doing, Stefano? Joel: I gotta buy it, I gotta buy it. All right, that is Metaview. Next up we have Modal. Chad: Modal. Joel: Modal Learning, a startup founded by two ex-Udemy executives, have secured 25 million in series A funding, which brings their total to $32 million. Modal offers a platform focused on enhancing employees' technical skills with courses on generative AI, data management, and analytics, among others. Chad buy or sell, Modal? Chad: I can't stop myself, I've got to buy, buy, buy. And let me tell you why, all companies are tech companies. We just had a great conversation with Mark Chaffey, CEO over at Hackajob earlier this week. And he said that Walmart is pretty much absorbing tech talent that guys like your buddy, Zuck, are cutting, and those tech people will need to keep their skills up to date, they will need to advance those skills because they need to stay with the velocity of today's tech. Plus there are all those other nontech technical skills that all employees will have to get trained on. Last but never the least, you mentioned it, Shimkus and Yang, ex Udemy president and CEO, are founders. This is too easy, this is exactly in their warehouse, they've sold something like this before. Buy, buy, buy. Joel: All right. Chad is a buy on Modal. Chad: Buy, buy, buy. Joel: Yeah, look, interview intelligence is hot, upscaling is even hotter, there's going to be a lot of money flowing into this. Companies want to grow their own, they're tired of spending money on recruiting and recruiters and agencies. Like, why can't we just educate our own folks and get them further up the corporate ladder? Look, this is an idea that's proven, you've got Gusto, Gloat, LinkedIn Learning, Degreed, Coursera, it's a proven model. The only risk to these guys is they just get crushed by whoever becomes Coke and Pepsi of the upskilling world, and they just become a consolidation play. I think there's going to be a lot of room for companies. They do have a pricing model that is sort of unique, they only charge companies when employees successfully complete a course. So there's little bit of like there is no risk, you're only going to pay when someone completes a course... Chad: I'll come to base. Joel: Which is going to be very favorable to a lot of companies. So yeah, for me as well, this is a winner, this is a winner. All right. Our last company, you're going to love these guys, Home From College, that's right, the name of the company is Home From College, a Los Angeles-based career platform. They've raised $5.4 million in seed funding. The platform caters to, you guessed it, Gen Z, offering part-time and full-time roles, and serves clients like Poppy, Aquifer and Steve Madden. Nothing says cool like a pair of Steve Maddens, everybody. With the cash, Home for College plans to expand the team and add more products for job seekers. Chad, buy or sell Home From College? Chad: Wow, man. $5.4 million in seed, that's a lot of cash, but the problem is, college is transient, you're in college until you're not, and then you stop using your old college job systems, then you moved on... Then you move on to LinkedIn, Indeed, Hackajob or wherever the people in your industry gravitate. So that being said, you need to either partner closely with colleges and universities or spend shit-tons of cash on marketing month after month after month to maintain market penetration, I personally have experience in building these types of college recruiting systems, nightmares, working directly with colleges, universities, career center directors, and employers who have teams that are focused on hiring from the university. And I promised myself I would never fucking do that again. This is a sell, very easily for me. Joel: Fair enough. All right, I'll make it quick because we got a lot of show left to go. I hate the name, I hate the college, I hate the college environment. You're right, every few years, there's a new player, handshake. Chad: When was the last time we heard from them? Joel: Yeah, like Monster Track or whatever the fuck that... It's just bad business, I hate targeting generationally, it just... It's silly to me. Look, there's already a resume builder out there, it's called LinkedIn, and it already has all the people who are gonna hire you on it, so don't mess around with some home from college site to build your resume. Go to LinkedIn and build your resume there and keep it updated and connect with people. It's such a much better product. Do you remember VisualCV from back in the day? Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: This thing has been tried and tried again, so for this, yeah, you can guess I'm a big sell on Home from College, at least it's a dot com, so you can remember that. Chad: That's right, kids. Grandpa says, get your profile on LinkedIn. Joel: That's right. Chad: All right, let's talk... S8: Talk about food. Joel: Talk a little food, shall we? A little fast food, a little quick-serve action. First up, we have Waffle House. The Union of Southern Service Workers has filed a petition against Waffle House, alleging the chain deducts mandatory meal costs from workers' paychecks even if the meals aren't eaten. Workers are charged at least $3 per on-shift meal, impacting those on a tipped subminimum wage. Chad, your thoughts and what's your go-to meal at Waffle House? Because I know there's about "10." Chad: Yeah, there's splattered and scattered and splattered and all that other fun stuff, but yeah, this is from the Waffle House employee manual, "Meals must be consumed at the restaurant, and no food can be taken home under the meal policy. Any food actually taken home by such an associate will be considered a to-go order and must be paid full price." Number one, any company that says that stupid shit right outta the gate, it's like, fuck off. But then the Union of Southern Services workers called it "especially alarming," since, as you had said, these workers make a subminimum wage. What is a subminimum wage, kids? It's $2.90 an hour. Yes, Europe, yes, Europe, you think you get fucked sometimes? $2.90 an hour plus tips. But it's a Waffle House, we're talking tips at a Waffle House, this is not upscale, okay? Joel: No one's ordering $200 worth of food at the Waffle House. No. Chad: No, this to me is just fucking ridiculous, where the center of gravity for where these Waffle Houses are. Georgia has 381, South Carolina, 144, North Carolina, 142, Florida, 133, and Alabama, 128. It's in the South, it's in the South, the impoverished. If you take a look at where most poverty is in the US, it's in the South. And Waffle House, you're not helping, you're not helping. S9: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Let's get these numbers right here. So Waffle House is a $4 billion a year company. Chad: Is that profit? Joel: Its chair, a guy named Joe Rogers Jr., is worth $1.7 billion. If this is true, Waffle House earns the douchebag company of the year award because Chad's right, if you haven't been to Waffle House, you're missing out kids. It's good people. Chad: Yes. Joel: A lot of times, this is the only company that will hire them. I've never had a bad experience from an employee at Waffle House. Chad: Well, okay. It's usually at 2:00 AM in the morning. Joel: The right answer is the biscuits and gravy, by the way, in terms of best thing at Waffle House. But yeah, look, if it's true, Waffle House didn't come out and say, this is not true. They didn't say, this is why, or, we make it up. So by all accounts, this is true, Waffle House hasn't come, and they have a PR department, I'm sure. So yeah, this is bullshit, I hope the union gets what they deserve, I hope this practice stops because inevitably, it's wage theft. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: At worst, and maybe at best, it's corporate greed, but it's a practice that's really stupid, it needs to stop. Chad: It's both. Joel: Let's be honest. Making a pile of pancakes at Waffle House probably costs them 30 cents, right? Chad: Maybe. Joel: And so like 3 bucks, it's just... I don't know, it's just really... It's really bad, it's really bad. Waffle House, I gotta go to IHOP now. Chad: Let's go to the other side of the pendulum. Let's talk about California. Joel: Alright, yeah. I gotta go to Cracker Barrel now. All right, in California, about half a million fast-food workers are now making at least $20 per hour, thanks to a new law that raises wages for restaurant change with more than 60 nationwide locations. The law also establishes a fast-food council, a first in the US, to annually adjust wages in line with inflation or up to 3.5%, and to address worker safety and other issues. Owners of some fast-food franchise locations have already increased prices or cut worker hours in response to the higher wages. Chad, does this drive you to Californication or is it just a little California dreaming? Chad: Yeah, so over the years, we've been told a bunch of lies, a lot of myths. If we pay these people living wages, we're gonna have to go out of business, we're going to have to raise the food rates, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Well, in November of 2013, yes, over 10 years ago, SeaTac passed Prop 1, which authorized a $15 minimum wage policy, which was phased in over several years. The policy went into effect in January of 2014. Six months later, the larger Seattle City Council expanded a similar $15 minimum wage policy to nearly 20,000 workers. So this is a great model to look at as we look at predicting outcomes because this took place more than 10 years ago. Did that kill restaurants? No. Since 2015, the number of restaurants is actually up in Seattle 5%. That's over 3200 restaurants. Annual sales increased by 20%. Seattle's job growth have outpaced the rest of Washington State. So now, let's go back to Cali. Cali, Cali. The new... Joel: Cali, I don't think so. Chad: Cali, $20 per hour minimum wage. The last time California raised the minimum wage to $16, guess what happened? Profits went up. Why? Where do you think these people buy food? When you put money in people's pockets, they fucking spend it, right? They can buy more. So owners should stop bawling up in the fetal position and start researching these models. Many Seattle restaurants are experiencing much lower turnover and higher profits because of this. This is not the shit that Milton Friedman talked about, he had fear in, oh, you're gonna lose people, and all the money has to go to the top. Fuck off, Milton, I hope you're turning over in your goddamn grave right now because you were wrong. We need to pay the people. Joel: He's with Jack Welch and not very happy about your words coming outta your mouth. There are a couple things I don't like about this, I don't like that there's a rule that if you serve just bread alone, you're immune to this... Chad: That's weird. Joel: Which means Panera... Chad: That's weird. Joel: Which means Panera bread gets a pass from this. And apparently Newsom and the Panera. So there's some politics here that I don't like particularly, but everything else you should like. Look, you have to have 60-plus locations, so that means it's not killing the mom and pop barbecue down the street, it's not killing the tacoria, favorite downtown, whatever establishment. So these are mainly big companies with a lot of money, a lot of resources. And so the fear-mongering was, the prices are gonna go insane, you're not gonna be able to afford it. So we have our first indication of what price increases mean. There was an In-N-Out burger preApril 1st and postApril 1st in terms of prices, so I think I'm paying 10 cents more for a cheeseburger, I'm paying like 5 cents more for a hamburger, maybe 20 cents more for a shake. Fries didn't go up, so potatoes must be doing very well growing wise. Chad: Cheap. Joel: So it's not like my cheeseburger went from 3.99 to 10.99. So the price increases are negligible. These folks that have a hard time making a living will now be able to do so. By the way, we know that when poor people get more money, they spend it, they spend it on food and gas and consumables and iPads and... Chad: Imagine that. Joel: Yeah, so most of this is gonna come back into the cycle. When you give rich people a lot of money, they put it in a bank or they store it. Chad: They don't spend it. Joel: They don't just spend it, so giving money to people without means is usually a good thing to keep the economy robust. Now, what will be interesting to see... So I don't think there's any Armageddon, I don't think the sky is falling, I think everything is gonna be fine. Frankly, $20 should be 25, we've talked about that a few times on the show. Chad: Especially in California. Joel: But 20 is not quite enough, especially in California. I do think they should use this as a recruiting tool to get people to move to California because of the higher minimum wage, get people leaving Texas and Florida. So who's gonna serve your Barbara Cobol if they're all in California making more money? I think that's interesting. This is being politicized big time. Chad: Go figure. Joel: The New York Post, right-wing entertaining publication, in the last... Their headline was, California Fast Food Minimum Wage Laws Already A Disaster And New York Wants Some of it Too. So this is gonna be politicized, but there's no skies falling situation in California. No one is... Now, will some people lose their job? Probably, I think the best people will stay, and maybe some of the worst will be let go, there'll be some people that are sacrificed for this. Prices don't blow up, like I think people have been fearful of. I do think it will increase or accelerate the investment in robots, I think that's inevitable no matter where we are. People just hate employing people no matter how much they're paying them. The interesting thing will be in 10 years when we're hopefully not doing the show anymore, but what do fast food places look like? Is it like a really small group of professionals that make really good salaries and they're managing the robots and the customer service. Restaurants will probably look much different than they do today. Chad: Probably. Joel: But whether we're doing the show to talk about it? I don't know. But this is a good thing, people, this is a good thing. Chad: Yeah, I'll be on the beach in Portugal, where we don't have fast food, so I won't give a fuck, no matter what. Listening to Ki Boo. Joel: Yeah. I do enjoy the occasional Burger King when I'm in Europe, though. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: In five, guys. Joel: All right, Chad, Amazon is removing Just Walk Out technology from its Amazon Fresh stores and replacing them with smart carts that allow customers to skip the checkout line but see their spending in real time. The change comes after customer feedback and is part of a revamp of the grocery chain. Just Walk Out technology will be available in Amazon Go stores and some smaller Amazon Fresh stores in the UK, as well as to third-party retailers. But by all accounts, this program is on the ropes. Chad, your thoughts on Amazon's latest move? Chad: Yeah, I think the smart carts are incredibly smart, I just hope it's not like enemy of the state, where they have cameras all over the place watching and... I mean that just gets a little bit too dystopian for me. But yeah, to be able to see innovation come to grocery shopping, the only thing that we've seen in innovation for grocery shopping, obviously, the back office stuff and then also inventory, those types of things. That makes a lot of sense, but the self-checkouts, which they're going to be scaling back on, so will this be the replacement for a self checkout possibly in the future? Don't know, but it'll be interesting to watch, that's for damn sure. Joel: Yeah. Clearly self-serve is in flux, the panacea of like, let people check themselves out, no cashiers, or just walk out the door is not really built for human beings. Human beings are like, just stand in... Stand at your local self-serve checkout area when you have some spare time. People are like, they don't scan it right, they take it off the weigh thing. Chad: Takes forever. Yeah. Joel: And they're gonna start over. Like it's six people checking out, there's one person that has to handle six people, two of them don't know what the hell they're doing, the third needs age verification because they're buying alcohol. You end up being in this infinite loop of waiting for the person to check you out and waiting for them... And then people just aren't met for self-service. And so you see Dollar Store, Target... Walmart are like, we're phasing some of this out. And I think this has been an experiment by Amazon that probably hasn't gone the way that they hoped. Look, Amazon did a lot of crazy stuff when Bezos was at the helm, whether it was like Whole Foods, MGM Studios. Why? I guess they're getting into media more, the Fire phone, remember? Nobody bought. Chad: No. Joel: And fortunately, under Jassy, they focused on three things that are really successful for them. E-commerce, AWS, and advertising. People don't understand, Amazon is like the third-largest advertising platform out there. Those are really good profitable businesses that aren't a pain in the ass. So like this whole Whole Foods checkout thing has gotta be a pain in the ass that they don't want to deal with, but they have to because they spent, how many billions on Whole Foods? So they have to think about this. I don't know if this will work, I'm not hopeful for humanity to get a... I'm gonna take a cart and it's gonna track what I put in the cart, and then I can just walk out. When do I put my credit card? You've seen videos of the Just Walk Out, where people were like, what do I do? Just walk out? Chad: Just walk out. Joel: I think there was a... There was a comedy about some black people, they were like, wait, no, no, no, I'm not just walking out. Where do I pay for this? Chad: Yeah. No shit, right? Joel: No, I'm not falling for this. Chad: Historically, historically, I'm not walking out with shit. Joel: Right. Yeah. I'm not doing that. Where's the camera? Am I getting punked here? Chad: Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking. A setup. Joel: So I think Amazon needs to focus on what they do well get rid of these hubris inducing side projects and get back to basics, but they're not the only big company having a little bit of an image problem or what the hell they're gonna be when they grow up problem. Apple, the largest company on the planet, is exploring the development of a mobile robot that can follow users around their homes and a robotic smart display for homes, but it is still in the early stages and not yet committed to releasing these products. The company has been under pressure to find new sources of revenue, and sees robotics as a potential opportunity to expand its presence in the home market. The focus on AI and machine learning is part of Apple's strategy for future growth, but the company has yet not committed to either project. Chad, are you ready for Apple robots following you around in your house? And more than that, are your dogs ready for a robot to follow you around in your house? Chad: Yeah, the only thing I could think of is the Jetsons and Rosie, their robot that followed them around. You would have thought that was really cool. Now I have my own place, my own dogs, and I don't need that. I've got robots that vacuum my carpet and can possibly mop my floor, but I don't need any of that other shit. Sometimes, I wanna unplug my Google Home just because the fucker listens to me all the time, so I think this is literally a bridge too far for me, at least, I'm just not sure how long it's gonna take for society to start... Well, first and foremost, the cost, right? So the cost is gonna be... Is gonna be a factor, but will society be comfortable with having something like that in the house all the time? I don't know. I just know that I won't. Joel: Can I have sex with a robot, and does it look like Jennifer Aniston? Is the question I guess that I have for this thing. Obviously, it's not. Chad: We'll connect with your OnlyFans page. Joel: Look, part of me feels bad for these big companies that have to make these huge swings. They can't just dabble in stuff. And Apple, post Steve Jobs, it's like AirPods and technically, the watch that have been successful, which are really extensions of the iPhone. Look, they've dabbled in TVs, they're rumored to get into that. Chad: Cars. Joel: They were rumored to have cars. Chad: Yeah. Not happening. Joel: Apple Home was a thing, CarPlay should be a thing, they just can't get it right. Chad: Nope. Joel: And this ain't it. Look, the Vision Pros, dead on arrival, I haven't heard anything about them since they launched. I wear glasses, Chad, and my latest pair is the Meta Ray-Ban glasses, which are great because you don't really know they're smart glasses. I can listen to music or podcasts as my wife yells at me about how I didn't mow the yard right. I'm just listening to that. I can take pictures and video. That's the kind of thing Apple needs to develop, they need to buy Warby Parker or partner with Prada or Dolce Gabbana and create smart glasses that are like that, that are cool, you don't really know they're there. These big swings are messing them up. I guess as a final thought, maybe Amazon and Apple could partner and create a penis rocket that can follow me around my house. That, my friends, sounds like a home run. And with that, we out. Chad: Out. S10: Wow look at you, you made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big-booty Latinas, and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads, instead now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away, and like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

In this episode of the Chad & Cheese Podcast, hosts Joel Cheeseman and Chad Sowash dive into the world of talent acquisition with Sher Zippo, a specialist from Bar Taco, a restaurant brand renowned for its upscale casual street food and innovative service model. Zippo shares insights into Bar Taco's unique approach to hiring, leveraging technology like QR codes to enhance both customer and employee experiences, and maintaining a fun, equitable work environment across their 30 locations. The conversation covers everything from the origins of Bar Taco, the challenges of scaling in the hospitality industry, to the impact of automation and the importance of human interaction in creating a memorable dining experience. Zippo emphasizes the brand's commitment to competitive salaries, team-based service, and a culture that prioritizes fun and professional growth, making Bar Taco not just a place to eat, but a place to build a career. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION COMETH Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It is Tony Gwynn's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Chad: Hello. Joel: Joined as always the Doc to my Marty, Chad Sowash... Chad: Thank you. Joel: Is in the house. Chad: Thank you. Joel: And we welcome Sheri Zippo, like the lighter. Chad: Zippo? Joel: To the show. Sheri is a talent acquisition specialist at two of my favorite words put together, a company called Bartaco. Chad: Wow. Joel: Possibly the funnest place on earth. Chad: No wait, do they have the.com? Bartaco.com. Sheri Zippo: Yes. Chad: Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Joel: Alright. Before we get to you, what is this Bartaco? I've never heard of it. Chad: Please. Joel: Is it two great tastes? It tastes great together. Chad: Of course they are. Joel: Is it only in... Where is it located? Tell us about this Bartaco. Sheri Zippo: I have so many great things to say about Bartaco. Joel: Okay. Sheri Zippo: Bartaco is upscale, casual street food, scratch, kitchen, scratch bar. We throw a party, we sell fun. Not tacos. That's our tag. We are up and down the eastern coast. We have 30 locations. Soon to be 32. Chad: When do you come to Indianapolis? That's all I care about right now. Sheri Zippo: We're hearing a lot about that at this conference. Chad: Yes. Yes. Sheri Zippo: We do have two in Colorado. So we are a little bit this way. Joel: You're getting there. Sheri Zippo: But... Chad: A little too far. Joel: You skipped us. You totally skipped. Chad: Totally fly over country is what she said. Yes. Joel: Fly over a country. We don't deserve a bar or a taco. [laughter] Joel: We only deserve single. So how was it founded and when was it founded? Sheri Zippo: 2010 in Port chester, New York. It was an old lobster shack on the water looking across to Connecticut. And it just took off from there, it's... Joel: It's running tacos, I think. New England. [laughter] Chad: She said it was a party, Joel. Joel: Oh, okay sorry. Chad: This is a party. That has tacos. Joel: Like an interview with us. Chad: Has a tacos in a bar. Yes. I mean, come on. He did... He's slow, he's slow on the uptake. Joel: I'm getting a better sense of what it is. Now let's get a better sense of who you are. Most of our listeners, if not all of them, have no clue who Sheri Zippo is. Sheri Zippo: Oh boy. Joel: What makes Sheri tick? Sheri Zippo: Oh gosh. Restaurants, hospitality. Chad: Long walks on the beach. I mean, come on. Sheri Zippo: Oh, yeah. Flip flops. Walks on the beach. Chad: Okay. There we go. There we go. Yeah. Sheri Zippo: Some good cocktails. Chad: Good call. Sheri Zippo: But no, I love the hospitality business restaurant industry. I've been in it for a really long time. I'm a new recruiter, so that's a fun fact. Joel: Please tell me Applebee's, Outback Steakhouse or Chili's is in your past. Sheri Zippo: P. F. Chang's is in my past. Joel: Close enough. Close enough. Sheri Zippo: And Tavistock is in my past. Chad: She just raised the roof. Nobody has ever raised the roof with P. F. Chang's. That was very nice. Sheri Zippo: Well, I got two from Bartaco. Chad: That was good. That was that. There you go. That's good that. I love that. Sheri Zippo: I worked for some great companies. Chad: I love that. Sheri Zippo: But yeah, I was in operations for a really long time. Retired that hat and now I am in the recruiting side of things. So what's really great is I get to hire people for the roles that I've done, so I have a good sense of what that means. Create careers for people up and coming and add value to our company. So. Chad: Amazing. Sheri Zippo: It's pretty fun. Chad: So what is the hardest thing for you as a recruiter at Bartaco? I would assume that getting people to reply to anything that says Bartaco would be easy, but I could be wrong, so help me out. Sheri Zippo: No, we're really blessed. We have a good applicant flow. We have a good backing behind us. I mean, people know our name. I mean, we're a beautiful restaurant. We're fun. When you go on the website and you look at a Bartaco and the videos and all that, that's really what you feel and see when you walk in. Chad: Experience? Yeah. Sheri Zippo: It translates. And so hopefully, I mean, the goal is they talk to us on the phone and I just get great feedback about people like when can I sign up? Like they just, it's a buy-in super quick. So I think the hardest thing. Chad: Yeah? Sheri Zippo: Oh, I don't know. Keep raising the bar. Right? Chad: Dealing with these technologies. Is that easy? Sheri Zippo: We're a big tech side. I mean we use a QR code at the table. Yeah. We don't have servers. Joel: Hello? Sheri Zippo: Yeah. We're a whole nother Joel... Joel: Hello. Speak of my love language. Sheri Zippo: Oh, boy. Joel: Little QR code action. Sheri Zippo: So the QR code adds the convenience for the guests and then we add the hospitality, so. Joel: What about for recruiting though? Is there a hiring QR code or have you started to use that yet? Sheri Zippo: I mean we have them that people can easily apply. They can easily get to our website. We have virtual business cards. All that great stuff. Joel: That's just table stakes at this point. Get it? Chad: Table stakes? Joel: It sounds like there's just a flood of people that wanna work there. Which leads me to my question of, we talk so much about employer brand, giving a brand that's separate from our main brand and Chad and I kind of go back and forth with is it better to have just a homogenous brand that translates into people wanting to work there or to have a separate brand and then the separate employment thing. It sounds like you guys have really embraced the overall fun Bartaco brand and that translates into applicant flow. Was that on purpose? Do you ever have discussions about a separate employer brand? Talk about that aspect of your recruiting. Sheri Zippo: I mean that's something that has definitely been a hot topic as of late. We're growing and learning. So in my opinion what we did, 'cause remember I'm only a year now, right? So we did five openings last year and that was when I just started. So from then until now, we're lights speeds ahead. First of all, I think we get better every day. We keep adding value to the leadership teams that are collaborative and we all want the same things. We want the best guest experience, but we also want the best employee experience. I personally think that that's a combined thing and they really can't be separated. And I feel like that's the path we're going. It comes from a very genuine place. And A players wanna work with A players like, right? Like you don't have to be perfect at your craft or your skill, but you gotta have drive and and compassion and... Chad: You gotta want it. Sheri Zippo: And want it. Joel: Gotta up your game. Sheri Zippo: Yeah. Like all those things. So for me, I look for people like that to join us, to help better us in that. And we could teach you Bartaco, easy. Joel: And you get free tacos, which helps the best... I think. Chad: I would like to be taught Bartaco, that's all I gotta say. Sheri Zippo: I have a shirt that says "If You Don't Like Tacos I'm Nacho Friend." I may or may not wear that here and there. Joel: Dad Joke alert. Chad: Nacho friend. Joel: Dad joke alert. Chad: Oh, I get it. Okay. So back to the tech question, in all of this, because I mean, we're talking about scale, because Bartaco, it's sexy, don't get me wrong. You're gonna get a lot of applicants. How do you scale through those applicants with the technology? Do you? Do you not? I mean. Joel: You manage the flood. Chad: Yeah. How do you do it? Sheri Zippo: Oh, I think that's something that... I mean, this is a great example of what we're learning, right? Chad: Yeah. Sheri Zippo: Mid last year I jumped on a few webinars with different tech companies to see if there were things that we aren't using that we could use that would make our process better, easier. Chad: Yeah. Sheri Zippo: More attractive, all those things. And so we saw a couple of here as well. So I think when we go back... Chad: Name names, who did you see that you liked? Sheri Zippo: We liked RecruitBot. Chad: Okay. Sheri Zippo: I think that that's, that could be something that could work for us. Chad: We've been hearing the name a lot around here. We have, we have. Sheri Zippo: You know, we're different too. We're restaurants, hospitality versus looking for nurses. It's not even... Chad: Yeah. Sheri Zippo: So when you talk about a certain recruiting platform, I don't wanna mention total names, but it may not hit the target audience that we're looking for our... The mass hiring. Right. Joel: What does work for you, if not the targeted solution? Sheri Zippo: Well, Indeed is a really big hub for us. Especially when we're doing new restaurant openings. And you're talking about hourly employees? I mean, we just did an event in Charlotte to open our Birkdale location, Jamie and I, and we had over 300 interviews that we interviewed and over a 20% return rate on that for two days of hire, like an event. Chad: Okay. Sheri Zippo: So we get a lot from that. But salaried is when you're cultivating who you want on your team. And you're building with what's already there. And you're poaching from P. F. Chang's, you know what I mean? [laughter] Sheri Zippo: Like the places that you respect, you respect those places and you're like, "Well, I want you to work for us." Chad: You know, the training, you know the environment, you know if it's gonna actually come out, if there are parallels. Sheri Zippo: Right. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I feel like she's saying the Taco Bell training system doesn't sync with the Bartaco. Chad: No. Sorry. Maybe Del Taco, maybe Chipotle, but no Taco Bell. Sheri Zippo: Well, to be honest, like Chipotle or Chick-fil-A or things like that. Starbucks. We've had some really good success stories with managers of which we call service leaders in our industry coming in as a start because they wanna jump over to full service. Chad: Yeah. Sheri Zippo: And we're willing to teach them. And they have all those things we talked about, the non-negotiables that we can't teach. Chad: So it's amazing... So my wife, her background is service restaurant general manager. Right. The logistics, the management. I mean, everything that you have to do going through that process as a like a manager or general manager at an organization like Bartaco, it's a great launchpad for not just staying in the industry but getting into other leadership positions. Because there's a lot of leadership that's taught, there's a lot of care and give a shit about your employees because if you don't, guess what? They don't show up the next day. It is much different than most other industries. Talk a little bit about that. I mean, because those... I feel like a lot of those individuals get looked down upon and they have skill sets that are far above many even corporates. Sheri Zippo: Which people? Individuals? Chad: Like the general managers. The managers of locations who actually have to deal with the people, not just customers, but also obviously employees. Sheri Zippo: Yeah. Well, they're boots on the ground, right? Like we are very, like we know that, you know, the RSC, the restaurant support center, some of the best collaborative group of people I've worked with in the industry as far as the support center, we know that. All of us know that, we work for them. And we are at their disposal. So we're there to support. So whether that's being available to pick up a phone or do something for them that they need. Or it's leadership and development or soft skills that we wanna help our leaders grow. I think everybody at Bartaco in that position is committed to doing that for all of our teams, which is pretty awesome. So that's what keeps me going and makes me wanna just stay and hit another year and another year because I believe in it, you know? Chad: So you see a career path? Sheri Zippo: I mean, that's why I joined. I would never have, a 100%. Joel: We talk a lot on the show about minimum wage. As you are aware, it hasn't increased in many years over a decade. And food service is struggling with paying servers and staff. Where is Bartaco's sort of strategy around salary and keeping people, it sounds like it's a great environment. There's training for retention, but talk about the salary piece of keeping people on the job. Sheri Zippo: As far as the salary positions that we have, you know, we are very competitive and the people, the powers above are very clear in stating where we wanna fall into with the percentile of, you know, a like with like, so I think we're on the cutting edge with that. Like I think we're in a good place. As far as the hourly go, that's the great thing about Bartaco. We, the service model allows us, so we don't, like I said, we don't have servers, we don't have hosts. We have a group of support team that we call Dragonflies 'cause that's our logo. Joel: Ooh. Sheri Zippo: I know. Isn't that cool? Joel: I like that. Sheri Zippo: And our management team and your bartenders, those are your front of the house staff. And then you have your typical culinary staff. Right? And because it's a... The QR code, all those gratuities that are being left are split amongst the team that worked. Right? So it creates a higher wage. Joel: Are people tipping through QR code? Sheri Zippo: Yeah. Joel: Talk about that. What... How long, what was the decision to do that? What kind of engagement do you have? 'cause... Sheri Zippo: I don't know. I don't know how much I could actually talk on it since I'm not that new, but like what do you mean? It's the use of the QR code? Joel: Well, I think that's innovative. I mean, we don't hear a lot of food service talking about tipping through a QR code. Like is it a service? Is it a vendor? Sheri Zippo: Yeah. Well we use a company called OneDine and that's who we partner with. And so you... Chad: Okay. Makes sense. Joel: You pay the bill and tip. Okay. It's not exclusively tipping. Sheri Zippo: Yes. Joel: It's paying the bill. Okay. So I got excited for no reason. Sheri Zippo: I was like, "Uh-oh" [laughter] Chad: As usual, anyway. Joel: As usual. Sheri Zippo: But you know, these line cooks and prep cooks and team members, you know, are making sometimes an average of $20 an hour, you know, and it... That's amazing. And we have a weekly pay and everybody is paid fairly and equally and it's a team environment. And if you're not a team, then it's not, if you're not willing to do that, then it's not an environment for you. And that's fine. And we're gonna find the people that wanna do that. 'Cause the more money we make, the more money they make. Joel: So automation, is another topic that's hot and we hear about more restaurants looking to automate. Certainly in my experience. And... Chad: A little robots you're talking about? Sheri Zippo: Oh, I don't know if I can answer that. [laughter] Joel: Kiosk replacing cashier workers, flippy... Sheri Zippo: I'm just a little TA girl. Joel: Flippy replacing just a little TA girl. Sheri Zippo: I don't think so. Chad: She doesn't make the robotic... Joel: So no, no thoughts on automation. Are you? Sheri Zippo: I don't, I don't know, but I don't think so. We're such a human interact... Joel: Well, is it a Brandy question? So for example, we had In-N-Out last night and I can never imagine the culture of In-N-Out being automated, whereas other restaurants, I could imagine that. Where do you think your brand is in terms of automation? Do you think it'll be something you embrace or people want the personal touch at the restaurant? Sheri Zippo: Like are you asking me if I think we're gonna get rid of people? I don't think so. I mean, who would cook that... Chad: There it is. Sheri Zippo: Who would cook that? I mean, again, I don't wanna be held accountable for that, but I don't think so. [laughter] Sheri Zippo: I dunno who's gonna cook that in easy Scratch... Chad: I don't think anybody is gonna hold you accountable. Sheri Zippo: Scratch food, you know? Joel: Yes. She's like, when I sat down, I was told that they would just talk about bars and tacos. Chad: Which is, which is... Joel: Not getting rid of all our employees. Chad: Which is my wheelhouse. Chad: Yeah. Sheri Zippo: But what I do think is that we are innovative company and we are cutting edge and we are leaning on technology. So I think we're gonna keep upping the bar. Chad: Right. Sheri Zippo: But combining it with the human, is if I had a guess. Chad: Beyond Bartaco, just basic opinion. We've heard automation, AI, blah, blah, blah, it's all over the place. Right? Do you think that is just like overrated or do you think it's literally true that some companies are... They're gonna look at trying to cut heads using automation and AI. Sheri Zippo: And see that's what's funny. Like we don't use the QR code for that. Like one might think that right off the cuff they might go, "Oh, they don't have service because they don't wanna pay that." That's not actually why we do it at all. It actually helps our employees. But I think that yes, for some concepts I think that that's the way it has to go, but not for all. Chad: Yeah. Sheri Zippo: I think it's gonna vary. I think it's... Can't be standardized. Joel: Everyone that is Sheri Zippo. Chad: Zippo. Joel: From Bartaco, Sheri. For those that are listening who want to connect with you or get on that list for when Bartaco is coming to town. Where would you send them? Chad: Indianapolis. Sheri Zippo: You can go to my LinkedIn profile. Or should I give an email address or? Chad: Whatever you want. Joel: You do you Sheri with a name like Zippo. Just let it ride. Sheri Zippo: Or szippo@bartaco.com. Joel: QR codes, bars, tacos, P. F. Chang's. Chad: I love it. [laughter] Joel: Speak of my love language Chad. Another one is in the Can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast, the Chad, The Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of of shout-outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese, it is so weird. We out.

In this episode, join us as we sit down with Debbie Tang and Ryan Whitacre from Bridge Partners, a leading executive search firm focusing on diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives. Debbie, a former lawyer from DC, and Ryan, adopted from Seoul and raised in Flint, Michigan, share their unique journeys into executive search and their passion for DEI. We delve into why DEI is a cornerstone at Bridge Partners, tracing its roots back to the early 2000s when multiculturalism was at the forefront. Our guests discuss a recent survey they conducted on DEI initiatives in corporate America, revealing that 80% of respondents consider DEI important, with it ranking as the top priority among non-core business initiatives. The conversation also touches on the challenges faced by Chief Diversity Officers, who often have the shortest tenure in the C-suite due to a lack of support and resources within companies. Join us as we explore the evolving landscape of DEI in organizations and the future of leadership diversity. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. It's Rihanna's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the vanilla to my ice. Chad Sowash is in the house. Chad: Baby. Joel: And we welcome Debbie Tang and Ryan Whitacre to the show. Both of them are partners at Bridge Partners. Welcome to the podcast, Ryan and Debbie. Chad: Hello. Ryan Whitacre: Thanks for having us. Debbie Tang: Hi. Chad: Happy Hump day. Where are you guys coming from? Where are you guys? Are you located in the same area, work remote, different areas? Where are you guys at? Ryan Whitacre: I'm in Chicago. Debbie Tang: I'm in DC. Chad: Oh, so different areas. Definitely. Joel: Chicago. Ryan Whitacre: Chicago. Chad: Chicago and DC. Joel: White Sox or Cubs? Ryan Whitacre: Tigers. I grew up in Flint, so as I call it, the northeast suburbs of Chicago. You know. Joel: So Are you a Lions fan? Let's go there. Ryan Whitacre: I am. A long suffering Lions fan. Absolutely. Joel: Yeah. It was a good year though. Good year. Ryan Whitacre: I mean, we get one every 50 years. Joel: Yeah. So aside from bad taste in sports teams a lot of our listeners will not know who you two are at risk of being canceled. Let's go women first. Ladies first. Debbie, tell us about yourself. Debbie Tang: Well, thank you. So I am what is commonly known in the DC area as a recovering lawyer, there's a lot of us around. I am actually from the DC area, born and raised. Went away for college and law school. And when I started off, I thought that I was gonna be a human rights lawyer. Didn't quite work out that way. Ended up in big law, was a lawyer for Marriott for a while, and then did a career 180 and started doing executive search, which a lot of people, not really sure what it is, but I like to think of it as a professional matchmaker. Joel: I would not have put that puzzle together. Yeah. Chad: How long were you at Marriott? Debbie Tang: A year and a half. Chad: A year and a half. Okay. Just enough to understand and then get the hell out. Debbie Tang: Just enough. My family misses the discount a lot. Chad: So why'd you stay in DC? Debbie Tang: DC is a great city. It is vibrant. It's got all these different cultures. Any food that you want, any country, it's all here. And my family actually has a restaurant here, which Ryan has been to. Ryan Whitacre: I have. Chad: Oh. Debbie Tang: Which is amazing if I do say so myself. But. Chad: Go ahead. Give us a plug. What's the restaurant? Because if there's anything in DC that DC in New Orleans, probably my two best food places that most people don't realize. Debbie Tang: Yeah. 'cause DC's got everything and everywhere. So it's a little bit complex. Right. So my parents grew up in Taiwan, so it's kind of Taiwanese food. But they came originally from Northern China. So it's like tons of noodles. Tons of dumplings, breads not your typical Chinese. Chad: I love it. Debbie Tang: It's called A&J. Chad: A&J I love it. Debbie Tang: Yeah. Very non-Typical name for a Chinese restaurant too. Joel: Holy carb overload. Batman. Chad: Gonna need an app after that one. Cheeseman. Ryan Whitacre: I have. And I can attest. Lots of good noodles and lots of good napping. Joel: Love it. Love it. Chad: That's everything a lobbyist needs. Joel: Ryan what makes Ryan tick? Give us the lowdown on you. Ryan Whitacre: So I have much the same story, but maybe a little bit different origin story. So I'm an orphan or maybe a lucky orphan 'cause I got adopted at six months and so born outside of Seoul, found in a ditch as everyone does. And. Chad: Found in a ditch. Wait a minute. Time out. Literally. Joel: That was another bad '80s movie, wasn't it? Ryan Whitacre: Yeah. Chad: I've heard of puppies found in a ditch, but you were literally, you were found... Ryan Whitacre: I mean, literally found in a ditch. So my birthday is yeah, my birthday's an approximation. 'cause they look at 'em and say, Hey, I suppose last night. So I spent my first six months in an orphanage and then found myself at O'Hare. Picked up by a very nice white family from Flint, Michigan, and grew up as a white kid who didn't look white and then went to a big dumb cow college here in the Midwest before I too got the law bug and, and went to open off the law school and thought I was real smart. Not not smart. Spent way too long trying to be a lawyer before I stumbled into this crazy, crazy career of executive search as well. And Debbie and I crossed paths and she brought me into Bridge Partners where I am the... I run the Chicago office, which you can see it's me and the dog. Joel: Bridge Partner Sounds like a really big company. Is it? Ryan Whitacre: We are 17. Debbie Tang: Eight partners, Eight partners now. Joel: Eight Huge. Ryan Whitacre: Yeah. Huge. Chad: So eight partners, 17. And then I would assume eight locations, much like we're seeing right now. Is that correct? Ryan Whitacre: Yeah, indeed. Cover the East Coast got San Francisco and now a Miami Outpost too. Chad: Well, we're here today to talk about diversity, equity, inclusion. You guys actually created a barometer and we have the the data around 2023's version, the value of diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives. Is it a boom or is it a bust? So why is an executive search firm focusing on DEI when it's literally not the flavor of the day anymore? It seems like everybody's trying to go away from it. So why are you guys focusing on it to try to drive awareness toward it? Ryan Whitacre: I'll start. And then Debbie you know me well enough to get me to shut up. So our firm started about 20 years ago, actually, 2003, back when I think multiculturalism maybe was the word of the day before it ever became DEI. And those sorts of acronyms. It kind of started on the notion that at the time you had multicultural marketing and maybe your CPG companies, your consumer heavy ones, McDonald's. Kind of got the bread idea that, you know what? Black people buy stuff, Asian people buy stuff. Maybe we should be thinking about how do we market to them, maybe how do we think the way they think? And so we had this bit of a push to, especially in the marketing, maybe in HR, maybe in other functions, get different people and maybe think about getting some inroads into different communities. Ryan Whitacre: Our firm's founders started the place on that notion that, you know what, maybe there's something here and maybe we have a niche that we can exploit in the marketplace, thought they'd be out of business within about three years. Here we are in 2024. And why would we? We're not McKinsey, we're not a big consulting firm. Why would we commission this study? Well, over the past three years, four years, especially since George Floyd, we get asked by our clients all the time what's this DEI stuff? Or should we have a diversity chief officer? Should this be an HR person, just tell us, this isn't our bailiwick. This isn't what we we do. But because we're asked so much, we're like well, here's what we think. Ryan Whitacre: Sure. You want me to talk, I'll talk. But last year we knew that there was this case kind of bubbling up, and this is what you get when you get two recovering lawyers. This case was bubbling up to the Supreme Court, and we knew it was going after the college admissions said maybe we should actually take the temperature of corporate America and see what they think because I don't know. I can talk. Sure, but you really wanna listen to me? So we did. So we waited. We waited until that decision came down and we asked, I think we had more than 400 respondents came back. So we were the first statistically significant sample size of large companies, 25 million in revenues, or 250 in headcount and above what they thought what do you think about this DEI stuff? Ryan Whitacre: And does the Supreme Court decision affect the way that you're gonna be planning for next year? And I will tell you that when I was thinking about the results we're gonna get back, I thought it'd be 180 from where we came out. And I know you have the study and wanted to go through some of those numbers, but I was fully prepared for our respondents who are c-suite people. And then your Chief HR heads, I figured they'd come back and tell us flash in the pan. Yeah. We had a moment in 2020. We're kind of over it and we're ready to get going with the rest of the business. Joel: Was this an anonymous survey? Ryan Whitacre: It was, yes. So it was real results and we were kind of astounded. I mean, the top line is 80% came back and said, this is important stuff. Debbie Tang: We agree. Joel: 80 is a lot. Ryan Whitacre: 80 is a lot. Joel: What else did you find in the survey or what specifics if we dig into it? Ryan Whitacre: So some of the other stuff that I'd said that I'd pull out here, we also wanted to know whether DEI was itself a separate sort of thing, or was it lumped into maybe, I don't know, corporate philanthropic things or ESG or some of these other things? And one of the pieces that came out was that of all of these kind of, not the business business stuff, but maybe your philanthropic stuff. Your environmental stuff. DEI seemed to be the number one priority for these respondents as well. So that it is top of mind. It isn't sort of a back of the office thing. And then I think another thing that was interesting to us is that the way it's counted, we're talking about corporate America here, is we like count things, race, ethnicity that's how we're drawing things up. And I think that's got a lot of implications to me anyway, about backlash now and why people are kind of coming back on it. But I'm gonna shut up for a minute. Chad: Not shut up. I'm gonna say is for Debbie to take over. Joel: Debbie. Yeah. I think that's the handoff to you, Debbie. Debbie Tang: That's my cue. Joel: Yeah. Debbie Tang: Yeah. So I mean, I think going back to what we're talking about, sort of like why are we interested in this? What is the firm about? I think one of the things that's been really dramatic that we've seen even beyond the survey is in the immediate aftermath of the murder of George Floyd, we had companies coming out of the woodwork saying, Hey, will you find us our first Chief Diversity officer? Right? And so that was maybe immediately 2020, 2021. And then last year those numbers dropped dramatically in terms of who was looking for a Chief Diversity officer. Joel: And how many of those placements are still employed? Debbie Tang: Well, so that's the thing. Some of the latest surveys that have come out have said that the Chief Diversity Officer is the shortest tenured c-suite member. Joel: Ouch. Debbie Tang: It is. It is a big ouch. And I think that the average is somewhere around eight months now, which is ridiculous because what happened was so many of these companies decided, oh, everyone else is doing it. We're gonna do it too. But it was just a very hollow position with no budget, with no team, with no power. With a report to somebody three layers down in maybe HR or finance, right? And so it has been interesting to see not only the results of the survey, but then just day to day in our own searches and sort of who is actually interested in hiring a new CDO, a lot of the places who hired their first, after that person's gone, they are not hiring their second. Chad: Yeah. It's akin to many of these companies who change their logo to a rainbow logo one month out of the year. Right. And it's more optics than it is, than it is a real, so therefore, I'm gonna push back a little bit on the survey. I mean, the survey is... This is answers, these are not data points. Right? One of the things that we saw during all these CDOs coming in and companies saying they're spending a bunch of money in DEI, the outcomes weren't there. Right? The outcomes weren't there to support the dollars. And for the most part, because they were putting people in positions that weren't qualified to be in those positions, number one. Number two, they were also putting people into positions without any resources, money, people, any of that, right? So at the end of the day, how do we see DEI moving forward from this point? It's not a situation where it doesn't work because we didn't allow it to work. How do we see it moving forward and what are you guys hearing from clients and the market? Ryan Whitacre: Yeah, I agree with both those points. I think that there was too quick a trigger, right? Being pulled after 2020 and people wanted to just do something and then they, they gave it to somebody and said, well, yeah, it's their job through the chief diversity officer. Go get it. So wrong, wrong answer. And then the second part to this, I wanna go back to something else sort of the way we count. It's what's the terrible Drucker quote that's been misquoted and I guess he didn't even say it, which is what gets counted or what gets measured gets done. And he may never have said it, but it is kind of a truism at this point. And one of the things that I think we find again doing it wrong is we KPI everything to death and what's easy to count, it's easy to count our black people, our Asian people, right? And so then we put these... Chad: It is If you have them. Ryan Whitacre: True, but... And so then you tie... People start tying bonuses to these numbers. And so that's all wrong too. What do we talk about with our clients all the time is if you are seeking "diversity" that's fairly easy. You wanna go hire some Asian people, go hire some Asian people, but then you have a revolving door. 'cause those Asian people aren't gonna stick around because you're missing the other parts of that puzzle, which are the more important ones, which are the inclusion, the belonging piece. You gotta have an environment that people wanna stick around and stay. And we're constantly telling our clients that, which is get diversity out of your brain. Make your workplace a better place to be. Diversity will be an end goal if you're actually doing those things right. Debbie Tang: That's the thing. It's about culture. The culture of your work environment is more important than any other acronym that you give it. Because when people are trying to count the numbers, that's when you get in trouble legally too. Right? Ryan and I are not lawyers anymore, but I can tell you that all those companies that various organizations are going after right now, it's because they made bold proclamations. We will have 25% African American employee population by 2025. Right No, that's not what diversity is about. It's not about the numbers. The numbers... If you're just going after numbers, you're doing it all wrong. Because if you're not changing the culture and making everybody feel welcome, then yeah, you get them in the door and then they're out six months later. Joel: So help me clarify this in my own mind, George Floyd happens, me too happens. Public sentiment pivots or the pendulum swings. Companies say we have to do something. The easy something is hire someone to be in charge of our diversity initiatives so that we can tell the press and we can go to the board meetings and the steakhouse down the street that we have a diversity manager head or whatever, A year down the road we go, why do we need this person again? And what's their dollar value? And where are we now? And the public doesn't care as much anymore. We're onto like Ukraine, we're onto other stuff and like okay, we don't need that anymore. It's done. Whereas that person's job is a long-term vision for how we mold the culture to be inclusive of a lot more people than we are today. So we basically killed the fetus before it had any time to grow. And now here's where we are today, we're at basically ground zero again. Did I get that right? Debbie Tang: I think that's mainly right. I think the part that is important in terms of why the pendulum has swung so hard back the other way, it really is a lot from the Supreme Court. Joel: The affirmative action. Debbie Tang: Because even though that was only directed at universities, all the companies... Part of it was the ones who didn't really have fully developed diversity programs, they used it as an excuse to like oh, well they went after the school, so they're gonna come after us next, so we're just gonna cut everything. Right? And so I think that is a big piece of why it has swung so hard the other way. But I think that the thing that Ryan and I talk about all the time that we take away from this is when you look at the McKinsey studies and you look at year after year, they're still showing that having a leadership suite and a board that is inclusive and that reflects their customer base like that is always going to help these companies that's gonna grow profit. That piece is always still there. And so I think that for the companies that have been sort of doing it right for a longer time, they're not the ones who are gonna like knee jerk as easily the other way. Ryan Whitacre: It does stem back. I think the backlash, stems back to the Supreme Court. You get a decision point made and you can tie things back or do things or not do it and blame it on the Supreme Court. What I think is interesting is that in the last three weeks you've had two Supreme Court actions following onto that, which really call into question how powerful that decision is. Because you first had a ruling that was... Earlier this month that said, Hey, we're gonna let West Point keep race conscious admission standards in place. Supreme Court said we're not gonna really mess with that right now. So that was interesting. And then this week the Supreme Court also declined to take up another case that was a high school. That's like the number one high school in the country. Debbie Tang: That's my high school. That's where I went. Chad: Ah wow record. Joel: She's number one. Ryan Whitacre: Yeah. Debbie Tang: It's very interesting. So the high school that I went to is in the suburbs of Washington, DC And it's a magnet math and science school. And so when I was a kid, I can tell you how old I am, I'm not ashamed, I'm 45. So I graduated high school in '96. And in '96 when I went to that school, you just took a test. Right. And anybody could take the test, there was no fee. You just walk through the door and that's it. Right. In the years that have followed, there are now kids who take a prep course just to take that test like kids who move from overseas into that neighborhood to try to qualify into that school. And that's all to say that when I was a kid, it was not an Asian majority school at all. And then over the years, it's highest point was maybe 70 to 75% Asian American. Chad: Wow. Debbie Tang: Because I mean, my people care about education. Right. And that's why literally there were like families that moved from Korea to be in the boundaries of my high school. Right. Ryan Whitacre: I'm a bad Asian, by the way. I'm terrible at math. Chad: Tiger moms are a thing. You know, you grew up White. That's entirely different. Debbie Tang: But that's the thing is that people said, hey this is the best high school in the country. Why is it 75% Asian? That's not right. We're not reflecting, we're not reflecting the county that we live in. Right. Yeah. And so then the Supreme Court took that on and declined to take that case. And so now you can still use race as a factor. But it's interesting because this is sort of one of those it doesn't quite make sense, right? Because you're like, oh, okay. Joel: The affirmative action case was, I mean, the Asian population is a huge reason why affirmative action was struck. I mean, people don't kind of realize that, but the Asians were the spearhead for a lot of the movement. Debbie Tang: Yeah, so it's interesting. Chad: I would say they were pushed up front, yes. Ryan Whitacre: They were. Chad: To be the face. Debbie Tang: Yeah. Chad: I don't think they were the major push at all. Ryan Whitacre: That's right. They got some spotlight. Chad: Yeah, there's an entirely different discussion around that one. Debbie Tang: Yeah. Ryan Whitacre: Yeah. Chad: Let's talk about the evolution of DEI programs. And we've heard many opinions over the years. And in some of them, we're in this woke, anti-woke society where we're really looking to try to divide and conquer, right? We being the, let's say for instance, the upper crust, they're always trying to get us to fight each other underneath them, so we don't focus on them and what they're taking away from us. The evolution could be, and I don't know, it could be more socioeconomic if that's the case. And it is less than just saying Black, White, Asian, doesn't matter, right? It's more around poor people and we got loads of those, right? No matter whether they are what color they are. Do you think that there might be a way forward in DEIB with looking at socioeconomics as opposed to just focusing on race? I think they're both important, don't get me wrong, but to be able to get past this woke, anti-woke bullshit, we've got to find a way to do that. Do you think this might be a mechanism to be able to do that? Ryan Whitacre: Yeah, yeah. I think that's exactly where it's going. It's gonna be other factors beyond race and ethnicity. It could be zip code. Geographic factors, yeah, but your socioeconomic factors are, to me, the way it is. And that goes back again to the way we count things up. What are the KPIs that companies are going to be putting on their people to get to the benefits of DEI without getting through quotas? How do we reimagine this? I saw something where a company said, okay, if one of the outcomes we want out of quote unquote diversity is innovation, creativity, well, maybe one of our KPIs ought to be, I don't know, patent applications. How are we measuring ingenuity and spurring that creativity? Maybe that's a way to do it. Thinking outside of just, again, just kind of Benetton adding this thing to death. Debbie Tang: Yeah. So what a lot of the law firms are doing and what a lot of the companies are doing is that what had previously been a scholarship or a fellowship for maybe Black Latinx students, internship programs, some of them are turning into maybe first generation college attendees, things like that, and opening it up in different ways. So not only is it, put them out of sort of the target of some of these groups that are going after these companies but also trying to be more broad and inclusive and sort of what they're thinking about and sort of what their, what their company values. Okay. Joel: Okay. Who are the most discriminated against that we don't normally think about? I mean, we think about age, we think about disabilities, like who are we not talking about that we should? Debbie Tang: I mean, I think one of them is neurodivergence. I think that in the last couple generations there's been more studies, just more people with... It's not always just like mental health or things like that, but that is one of the areas that a lot of people aren't thinking about and that it's important because when you're thinking about the whole workforce and sort of all the people who are lost, who are kind of looked at as, oh, well they, they can't function as a customer service rep, right? So what? There's like tons of other things that person can do. Right? So that is one of the ones that is not always apparent, but I think gets sort of pushed aside. Joel: And to follow up on that, Ryan, I don't know if it's a different answer, but the return to office phenomenon, to me, the work from home movement was fantastic for disabilities, age, people that can't get to the office easily as able-bodied people. Thoughts about that and what the return to office movement has meant to discrimination? Ryan Whitacre: I think it was a great leveler in many, many respects. I remember back when I was in charge of a group of people some of the stuff that would come my way as the manager was, well X person has five kids that she's gonna get off to school in the morning. Can we give her a little leeway to get that done, come up? And 25 years ago, that was like, oh, that's a big deal. I don't know. Can't treat everybody... You got to treat everybody the same. So I don't think we can do that. And those little things that we think as little are not little. Those are real issues to somebody. And so in many respects, the work from home phenomenon for those of us who can do it from home, yeah, it's terrific for that. Ryan Whitacre: I think that there's a schism now, though, because I think about people like my brother who drives a truck or my sister who ran a restaurant, they have to show up. They have to show up and they don't get the work from home. So I think there's a gap there. And so trying to find quote unquote professional careers where you can work from home that maybe, 'cause I would say to add on to Debbie's response, another group that we don't think about are the less educated. I wouldn't say uneducated, but people who don't have a master's degree, maybe don't have a bachelor's degree, but they can do stuff and they're getting left behind in this work-from-home economy. And I think about that. While it did level for some, not for everybody. Chad: Yeah, yeah. So the survey actually had 73% of C-suite report that they are looking to expand DEI initiatives coming up. Can we call bullshit on that? Is this just somebody trying to make themselves feel good? They're looking in the mirror like, we're gonna do this. I feel good. Now we're gonna do it. And it's like, no, no, you're not. Joel: That's, darn it. People like me. Chad: No, you're not. Ryan Whitacre: So we thought the same thing, right? Okay. And there was another data set that came out in December and it's a law firm, Littler Mendelsohn. They came out with similar stuff. Okay. And I don't know the same number, but it was still an astonishingly high number of their respondents also said, yeah, we're gonna put more money into this stuff. And so, yeah, those of us who are in there talking to these folks all the time, CHROs and CEOs, you kind of sit back and go, yeah, are you though? But here's where I think it's going. There was another article on the Wall Street Journal that's akin, right? So the ESG side of things. And there was a piece that says, forget about acronyms but don't forget about the underlying importance of the actual stuff going on beneath the surface. So acronyms are gonna change and what we call things are gonna change, but the principles underlying it are sound. And so we're gonna figure out how to really make that work. And so that resonates for me. Debbie Tang: Right. So I think that when you talk about DEI initiatives, right? Take away race, take away gender, I think that the inclusion piece is very tied to culture, right? And every corporation still is longing for, especially with the hybrid work environment, especially with work from home issues, having a really vibrant culture and having a culture that people want to go to work, whether it's in their basement or at corporate headquarters, right? And so even though maybe the D part might be fading a little bit the inclusion piece is absolutely how they're trying to get people to be productive, to wanna work for their companies. Chad: So this is really almost like a rebranding, rethinking, re-narrative of what we need to do to be able to move forward as organizations so that we don't have to play with the, these stupid woke, anti-woke bullshit conversations that are happening. I mean, that's what it seems like to me, like we're trying to navigate around to that. How long do you think that's gona take? Do you think it's happening now? Or do you think there's gonna be a big movement to actually make it happen? Ryan Whitacre: I think it's happening now. Things are going underground, right? You're just not seeing the big, huge pronouncements anymore. You're not having your Twitter account go black in Black History Month or but things are going underground. And I think that the major reason why, because we can talk to the McKinsey studies and the other studies that show the underlying of correlation between diversity at the end and performance, fine. I think demographics. We Xers sitting around this podcast chuckle and laugh at how we hate the millennials and hate the boomers. No one ever gives us the time of day. But it's sheer demographics, that's why. Because we're tiny compared to the boomers that are leaving. Our kids are the millennials and now the Zs. Joel: But we are fierce. Ryan Whitacre: Yeah, fierce. But there's not enough of us, really. But the millennials and the Zs, they are the two most diverse of themselves generations ever. Yeah. And they're not letting go of this stuff. That's why it's gonna continue to move. Chad: Well, here's the problem, though. Here's the problem, though, Ryan, and you guys are right in the middle of this. We got a bunch of old White dudes at CEOs in the C-suite, right? They're all boomers. They should have been gone a long time ago. We should have had people in those seats so that they would be mature. They would be seasoned and experienced. That's not going to happen. So we're going to have a ton of individuals who are coming into the C-suite, no, none, zero, zip, nada experience because we allowed this shit to happen. So I guess from your standpoint, 'cause this is... Joel: It's all of you in executive search that are keeping these old guys in line. Chad: That's right. All your fault. All your fault. Debbie Tang: Not Ryan and I. Not Ryan and I. Ryan Whitacre: Now, you get to the heart of the point, right? Okay. Which is I think too often. And that's what Debbie and I see and what we strive against all the time. Too often, it is the same five dudes and it's always dudes. Debbie Tang: Yeah, it's a very country club mentality. Ryan Whitacre: Who get the chair, right? And they kind of circle it back and forth, right? You have to be intentional about that. You have to be intentional about breaking that cycle, which is what we're trying to do in our day to day. But you're right. I mean, too often you get that, that this is what leaders look like. This is who leaders are. And that's it. If you don't come through this funnel, then good luck to you. Chad: What's the percentage of executives you guys are pushing out into companies? Debbie Tang: In terms of our stats year to year, we place probably around 70 to 75% leaders of color in the C-suite and on boards. Chad: Damn! Debbie Tang: And it's probably 75% female last year. Chad: Damn! That is awesome. Debbie Tang: That's the difference maker, but it's also, you can't do that at all firms, right? So our firm is minority owned. You know, we got everybody rowing in the same direction. And that's just not what most firms want as their stats, right? Ryan Whitacre: And I would also say to that too, that what we're doing isn't placing diversity. That's not it. Debbie Tang: Right. Chad: Yeah. Ryan Whitacre: What we're doing is, and I go back to, again, my own stupid example. I went to a big dumb cow college. I went to a so-called Ivy League law school, and I found smart people both places. And I found dumb people both places. And so our philosophy is that there are great people everywhere, but it takes a little effort to actually find them. And that's what we do. We put a little effort into it. And so our clients then have an array of choice. And if you have an array of choice, maybe you go for something that isn't the cookie cutter. I don't know. Debbie Tang: Right. I mean, Ryan and I talk about it all the time. Why hasn't the Rooney Rule worked in the NFL? And yet all these corporations are trying to adopt the Rooney Rule in their own hiring. Yeah. And what it comes down to is when you're just there to check a box, no one's taking you seriously. Yeah. It's just for window dressing. Joel: And to me, that's the heart of this movement is expanding the pool of candidates. Right. It's not tokenism. And I think it gets in that bucket way too often. One of the data points that I found interesting was that a majority of companies don't understand that there's a backlash on DEI. We're talking about woke and all that. Well, we're in a political year. I don't know if you've heard or not, with two pretty polarizing candidates probably going to face off against one another. If a majority of companies don't know about a backlash, they're gonna know about a backlash in an election year. What do you guys foresee 2024 unfolding in regards to this movement? Are you buying or are you selling DEI in an election year? Ryan Whitacre: You're taking it underground. Debbie Tang: Yeah. So I'll start by saying that we talk to CHROs, chief diversity officers, CEOs all the time, and some very large ones, right? Like Fortune 5 companies. And they have said exactly what Ryan's saying. It's like, we're not stopping, right? We know that this is good for our bottom line. And that's what they care about is their bottom line. We don't blame them. I mean, they want their stock price to stay high and they want their business to succeed, they're still gonna do it, but they might not make the bold proclamations of, oh, we're going to donate 2 billion only to Black owned VC companies. Joel: No SuperBowl ads touting it. Debbie Tang: Right, exactly. And so I think that it's going to be a little bit more underground, but it's still going to keep moving. Ryan Whitacre: Yeah, they're going to keep their heads down. No one wants to be head above the fort, get blown off, be the target. Chad: So last question, because I mean, you guys are obviously heavily focused on ensuring that companies are getting that diverse slate. When the pool runs dry, because there aren't as many in the actual pipeline, where are you guys going? HBCUs? Are you actually going to creating training programs? What are you doing that most of those other organizations, I'm not looking for you to give away secret sauce, but where are these leaders of the future going to come from, these diverse leaders of the future? Joel: They're all at Debbie's high school, apparently. Debbie Tang: So I'll start by saying that we don't have a secret sauce, right? And for the level that Ryan and I do, 'cause we are working on C-suite, you can't go to an HBCU to find your CEO, right? And so I think that what it really is, is it's got to be what's right for the organization. And it's not like we're not done until we find you an underrepresented minority for this role, right? When I first joined Bridge, and Ryan and I laugh about this all the time, I would have old candidates and clients call me and be like, I'm an old White guy. Does this mean you're never placing me again? And I was like, no, not at all. I still place old White guys, too. I think that it's all about who's right for the position at the time. Right. And so it's not about we can't create people from whole cloth. We've had clients say, can you find me an African-American male who's got experience with soda manufacturing in the Midwest to be our next CEO? Chad: No. Debbie Tang: No, we're not like Dr. Frankenstein piecing together somebody. Right. I think that for Ryan and I, we can't help as much with the pipeline because we tend to do C-suite. But when there are up and coming folks who are like one or two levels down, oh, you can bet we're keeping our eyes on them and keeping up those relationships and following them as they go from company to company. Ryan Whitacre: Yeah. And you don't manufacture people per Debbie's take there. But what we try to do then is expand the brand of your client. Talk to that search committee, talk to that CEO. And say, okay, what are we really after here? Do they really need to have soda manufacturing experience from the Midwest? What if it was pipeline manufacturing from the Southeast? I mean, come on, seriously, what are they doing here? Let's get down to what are the five true things here? Do you need a change agent? Do you need somebody to just keep the wheels spinning? What are we after here? Because, again, there's a lot of people who could do this. You have to open up your brain to the possibility of who that leader looks like and where they come from. And so that's what we try to do is expand minds first and get you to think about talent broadly before we winnow down. Joel: Mind expansion Chad, that's what it's all about. That is Ryan Whittaker and Debbie Tang. For those of our listeners that wanna find out more about you two or the organization where do you send them? Ryan Whitacre: Www.bridgepartnersllc.com. Joel: I love it. Another one in the can Chad, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast. The Chad. The Cheese. Friend. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about Cheese. Not one. Cheddar. Blue. Nacho. Pepper Jack. Swiss. So many Cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. So weird. We out.

The podcast episode features Darrian Mikell, co-founder and CEO of Qualifi, discussing the evolution of his company and its impact on the recruiting industry. Mikell shares insights on Qualifi's journey from a simple phone interview automation tool to an end-to-end screening solution, emphasizing the importance of capturing the voice of candidates beyond resumes. He also delves into the challenges of market education and the potential of using AI and automation in recruiting while maintaining a focus on diversity and inclusion. The conversation also touches on Mikell's personal journey, his experience working with family in business, and his competitive spirit, reflecting both in his athletic background and business ambitions. Intro: Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joe: Oh, yeah. What's up, everybody? It is Ron Burgundy's favorite podcast, aka the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host... Chad: San Diego. Joe: Joel Cheeseman joined as always, the Sam to my Frodo, Chad Sowash is in the house. Chad: Hello. Joe: We are recording live from TA Week at the Qualifi booth. And what better guest to have in the Qualifi booth than the co-founder and CEO, Darrian Mikell of Qualifi. Darrian Mikell: In the flesh. Chad: In the flesh. Darrian Mikell: In the flesh. What's going on? Joe: Welcome to the podcast. You're a two-time guest on the show at this point. Darrian Mikell: I am. Joe: If you get to five, you get a velvet jacket. So stick with it. Stick with it, kid. Yeah, stick with it. Chad: Well, we got to talk about the first time though. It was on Firing Squad and it was a double applause, was it not? I think was... Darrian Mikell: I think so. Joe: Double rainbow. Darrian Mikell: Smooth. It was smooth. Joe: Double rainbow. Darrian Mikell: That's when I was pitching all the time. I was ready for it. Chad: Are you not pitching all the time now? Darrian Mikell: I'm still pitching everyday. Everyday I'm pitching. I was probably coming off a fundraiser. Chad: Everyday is... [chuckle] Darrian Mikell: So I was like, all right, I got to be all my Ps and Qs, yeah. Joe: So Darrian, a lot of our listeners don't know you, even though you've been on the show before. Those that don't know, get us acquainted with you. What makes you tick? And please mention how many kids you've brought into this world while you're at it. Darrian Mikell: I'm stuck trying to cut the train off, well we have three kids. I'll start there. Chad: You know there's a medical procedure for that. Darrian Mikell: I'm very aware of that. [laughter] Darrian Mikell: That's all I'll say about that. But yeah, I'm Darrian Mikell. This is a hell of an intro. I'm Darrian Mikell, co-founder, CEO of Qualifi. We're the phone interview company. We help capture the voice of candidates beyond the resume. We automate that phone interview step in the hiring process so that recruiting teams can get to know their candidates quicker, make decisions faster. And then now we help schedule the ones that you like and get them to live interviews that much more seamlessly as well. So we started with the phone interview and now have an end-to-end screening solution. Chad: Sexy. Joe: The pride of Indianapolis area startups, by the way. Chad: It is, I'm saying. Joe: He's being very humble. But local kid done good. We're really proud of you for sure. Proud of you. Darrian Mikell: I appreciate it. Chad: So talk about where you started and where you're on your way to, right? 'Cause you've had this evolution of who you are, what you want to be, and it can't happen overnight, right? I mean... Darrian Mikell: Certainly not. Chad: You don't have so much funding for God's sake. So where did you start? Where do you guys want to go? Darrian Mikell: Yeah, I was just literally talking to somebody at breakfast. I feel like it's been I'm still pretty young, right? But I feel like it's been a long journey. We've been at this for close to officially five years, but technically around like seven years when the idea, the inception of the idea. And it started based off a personal experience. So I was at another indie based tech startup company called Viral Launch. And I was employee number one or two there. And from starting with the CEO, myself, we grew to about 70 people on the team. And my responsibility was over like their internal operations. I was doing all the things and recruiting... Chad: As you're doing the startup? Darrian Mikell: Yeah, everyone... I would say everyone wears a lot of hats in the startup. I felt like I probably wore the most hats at that time. And the recruiting HR function was one of those hats. And that's where I saw the pain points around all of recruiting. But especially I noticed a pattern of like, hey, I'm asking these same questions over and over again in the phone interview. Why don't I just record it, send it to people, let them respond? And then the fun part, I think we're spoiled in indie. No one really has that bad of a commute. But I had like a 45 minute commute to work. Yeah, we're in California where there's like way worse than... [overlapping conversation] Chad: That's brutal. That's around the corner in California. Joe: Yeah, there's a stop sign up the street 45 minutes. Darrian Mikell: Yeah. So like 45 minutes was a long time. And I'm always efficiency driven person. I'm always looking for tools or solutions to like plug even the smallest gaps in the process. And so I was like, hey, I have this 45 minute commute to work, I listen to podcasts, like could I be more productive even in my commute? And I was like, if I had these recorded, I could listen to interviews like a podcast. And so that was where the idea started for me. And I took it to my brother who's my co-founder and it resonated with him 'cause he was doing recruiting as well in his own right, both in the food industry and in senior care, both high turnover. And so we thought that there was something there that we wanted to start with. Chad: So that was the start. Darrian Mikell: Yeah. Chad: Where are you guys? Where you went out? I mean, what's the big evolution steps been thus far? You got funding. I'm sure that fueled some of it. Darrian Mikell: Yeah. Joe: 7.7 million. Darrian Mikell: Yeah. Totally. Joe: Five years old. What's next? When's that 25 million series B coming, series A? Darrian Mikell: Hopefully at some point we're grinding right now. 2023 was a slog for a lot of companies and we made it through. Luckily we have more of that money still in the bank and we can continue to grow the company. But I think the evolution started with like a very finite idea of like, Hey, record interviews, send it to candidates. They record and send it back basically. And now I think the bigger vision centers around the totality. One of the hiring process we've since expanded, like I mentioned into the end to end screening aspects. So we added scheduling and live video interviewing. So I like to say we take you from your first interview to your last interview. But what I'm more excited about, more fascinated about is the idea that phone interviews in the traditional sense are still very traditional. Darrian Mikell: People just talk on the phone. They scribble down notes as they're talking. And I just think about how much data gets lost to the ether because people don't have a good way of capturing that information yet. There's so much more information to learn about a candidate that you can do in a phone interview beyond a resume. We have all the tools from AI perspective centered around scraping resumes, figuring out how to assess candidates there. But there's a lot of rich information that gets lost in phone reviews. And so I'm really excited about the potential there so yeah. Joe: Paint for us real quickly. If I'm a candidate, my interaction with Qualifi, walk us through that. You said from the first interview to the last. What is that like for a candidate? Darrian Mikell: Yeah. So the typical entry point for a candidate is they've already applied to specific job and what they'll receive through Qualifi is a notification saying, from the recruiter, basically either a text or an email saying, Hey, we got your application. We wanna learn more about you. We want this experience to be really convenient. So we prerecorded these questions for you, click this link to get started. So they click the link, they see a branded landing page branded to the employer with the simple instructions on what to expect in terms of this phone interview. And then ultimately when they're ready after they've read these instructions, they have now two options. We started with one they have two options now, one we'll call you. So like they can hit the start button and our system will dial their phone. Or we've now added the convenience of taking the interview right there in the web interface. Darrian Mikell: So on their mobile phone or on desktop they can still respond with their own voice and capture however they wanna sell themselves, however they wanna respond through those two convenient mechanisms. And so they'll hear the questions from the recruiter. We also have AI generated voice in the platform as well so recruiters can type out their questions and have a really polished AI voice as well. But most people are still using their own authentic voice, and they'll hear that and they can respond in a very conversational way. Yet the recruiter's not there live on the other side. And so it's pretty seamless in that way. Chad: So we need a Chad and Cheese... We've had our voices cloned, so we'll go ahead. We should talk about... Darrian Mikell: Yeah, I've always thought about having celebrity voices eventually in the platform, so if you guys wanna like... Chad: Yes. Joe: They'll be licensing of those voices for sure. Chad: Yes, exactly. Yes. Who do you want to read this out to? To your Angelina Jolie, Brad Pitt, Chad and Cheese? Darrian Mikell: I always say Snoop Dogg is the one I always reference. Chad: Who? Joe: Snoop? Chad: Oh, yes yes. Darrian Mikell: Yeah, Snoop. Like you'd just love to take a interview with Snoop, yeah. Chad: That would be amazing. He'd just put you at ease. Darrian Mikell: Yeah, exactly. Chad: I mean, that's exactly what you want. Joe: So keep going. I'm a recruiter, I've got all these candidates that I sent this invite out to. I've funneled it down to maybe two or three that I want to come in. Then what happens? Is it to schedule an interview, a live person? Does it keep being automated? Darrian Mikell: So after the phone interview, one recruiters can integrate Qualifi at any step in the journey. Typically, it's at the point of application or just after they've applied. So they take that phone interview after they've applied and then it all gets sent back to the recruiter. The recruiter dashboard allows you to see all the candidates that have completed interviews. We help score based off of the survey questions that we asked before, and then we also summarize the full interview. So you can see the highlights from each candidate and dig a little further. Chad: Is that like an LLM kind of a thing? Darrian Mikell: Yeah. Chad: You ingest all the transcript and then you hit it, okay. Darrian Mikell: Exactly. Yeah. We ingest the transcript and bring out like the top five bullet points, the highlights from that interview. And so as you're looking at all your candidates you can hover over the summary and see like, oh, this candidate has five years experience at this company doing this thing. And like has these different bullet points. You're like, oh, I wanna dig in further. Without that review time is five minutes or so anyway, it's way shorter than a standard phone interview. But that helps, bring your focus into the right candidates still. And then from there, if you're like, Hey, I wanna give this candidate the thumbs up, I wanna move them to the next steps, you can hit schedule this candidate right in the platform. And it'll send a follow up to the candidate where they can self-select the best time that works for them. And then if that next step is a live virtual panel interview we have what we call Qualifi video meetings, which is a browser based video interviewing solution to mitigate that, oh, do I have to download some app or troubleshoot with Zoom? It's just browser based. So it's by frictionless to, get in to... Joe: Is there an automated rejection component as well? Because we hear a lot about ghosting and automating from a company. Darrian Mikell: So it's not automated, but there is dispositioning in the platform. So yeah, if you don't like the candidate, you give them the thumbs down and you can just easily hit, Hey, it's not a good fit for us right now. Chad: So on the other side not the rejection but say that they had a great interview and they meet all the requirements can you just... Darrian Mikell: Automatically push them through? Chad: Yeah. Automatically push them into an interview scheduling? Darrian Mikell: Yeah. Right now we don't have that built in but that's something that, I think is very exciting on the forefront for us. It's like, how do we streamline that even further. And we've always from day one, like with AI or anything automated, wanted to be really careful because diversity and inclusion is very integral to how we operate as a company. And we don't want to be part of like, kind of our competitive, how we compete and talk about our product differentiated from other interviewing services is on the level of mitigating bias. And so we don't wanna be problematic and especially reject candidates that shouldn't have been rejected. But I think there's an opportunity to like say, Hey, we feel confident that this candidate is a strong candidate to get them scheduled. You can review them for yourself and see but I think there's an opportunity for us for sure. Chad: How much has DEI been a part of just, kinda of like the love language of pitching companies and is there still traction there because we're seeing in obviously the broader scape where it's being demonized by states, by politicians, by even some moguls, like Elon Musk, right? So is it still kinda like the love language of TA, is that still important to them or are they starting to push away from the table? Darrian Mikell: I don't feel anybody at least I haven't seen anybody pushing away. The way I talk about it is, it's definitely where we stand on but it's not the thing that we lead with. Like what it seems like is recruiters care about moving the core metric. And right now the core metric is centered around speed and efficiency. And so that's where we specialize in but when it comes to how do we differentiate from other platforms how do we shine? And for like, videos like who we typically go after. It's like, that's how we talk about ourselves differently and say, Hey, yes, video is asynchronous solution but with that you're also getting information that might not be helpful in making the best quality of decisions. And so let's mitigate that to some degree so that way you can make a better decision. I think there's like a huge opportunity for us to add more features around that. But then I think my hope is that it continues to grow in terms of importance for organizations 'cause right now it doesn't seem like it's a budgeted initiative in a lot of organizations. TA cares about it, but they're putting dollars behind other things first is what it seems like. Chad: Well, if they care about it, they will put dollars behind it. Darrian Mikell: Right. Yeah. Chad: And I think that's the big difference that we've seen over the years is that there's a lot of fluff and pomp and circumstance and it's total bullshit. It's like if you believe in it, then put money and resources into it. Darrian Mikell: Yeah. And I think at least there was a wave. So let, we will see what the wave has produced. Obviously there's more people in those positions, but one I've learned that DEI positions all have different areas of emphasis. Some is very central to recruiting some it's about the current employee experience. Some it's about vendor relationships and like who their suppliers are. And so every organization might have a different focal point when it comes to their DEI practices. And so that's been a learning curve for us too, is like figuring out is this a good point of contact for us to go you know, start a relationship with. How much influence do they have with talent acquisition? Joe: And you talk about demand from the DEI perspective. I'm curious about overall demand. We read in the news, everyday layoffs. Like huge layoffs. From your perspective as a vendor, if people are becoming more efficient, are they look in to services like yours more? Or do you feel like there's more of a pause button to see where the economy shakes out in the next 12 months or so? Darrian Mikell: Yeah, I think it's been a little bit of both. Like there's certain areas, like being a startup is like always evaluating who are we going after? Why are we going after them? And like the areas where we found a lot of results and where we tend to focus is high volume spaces like healthcare and retail. And they're consistently hiring for the same reasons as like day one. There's a lot of turnover, a lot of attrition. And even in like the recruiting ranks, there tends to be like turnover there too. And so our kind of pitch to that is, hey, we're an always on system. You don't have to retrain us. We've had teams where they've lost recruiters and they don't need to backfill or backfill as fast because they have a system in place that's working the way that it's supposed to work. So from a demand perspective, I think 2023 was very interesting for us. Obviously we grew but then there's a lot of people towards the end of the year like evaluating, looking at their full stack, wanting to see how things played out to that point. And so my hope and anticipation is they've done a lot of that in 2024. They're like, all right, we're ready to like put some new things into practice. And I think everyone's looking at AI and automation as a way to advance and compete. 'Cause I think a TA is a competitive sport. So if you're not advancing, then you're gonna lose out on your best talent. Joe: I talked to a lot of startups who say recruiters or employers don't want to talk to you because they mean I might lose my job if we hire this company. Are you seeing some of that? And if so, how are you sort of getting around that hurdle? Darrian Mikell: Yeah, that's a common question that we've gotten since day one. And what we tend to find is that when Qualifi comes in, they don't say, Hey, all right, we're cutting to like three or four recruiters. What they see is like, we're adding capacity to our existing team and now they can screen more candidates or repurpose them to take on better, like the more meaningful projects beyond just screening. 'Cause like what we try to talk to our recruiters about is like, we don't want you to be, we want you to be more of a partner to the business and not glorified or overpaid admins. And just focus on scheduling and coordinating. Your job is more important to them. And so like my hope is that we're elevating the role of what recruiting is. And I think, I think that's honestly like the future of recruiting is that role might shift in a lot of organizations. It might require more responsibilities that are more highly aligned to the end goals of the organization and not just serving the hiring manager fulfilling, you know, the coordination duties. And so that's my hope and that's how we tend to talk about it. Chad: So when it comes down to... It's impossible to get into an employer's head in the first place to know whether they're literally looking to like scale down the recruiting staff. Or if they're looking to provide them with more resources that's beyond you at that point, right? Darrian Mikell: Right. And some were very explicit. Some were like, like we've been on demo calls and they literally look at it as like a financial equation. Like yeah, I could... Chad: No shit. Darrian Mikell: Immediately cut headcount. Chad: We can cut. Darrian Mikell: And they're like say that on, or like oh, we're not saying that. Like, this is how we think of it but... Chad: Oh, I'm sorry. Did I say the quiet part out loud. No idea. Darrian Mikell: Yeah, they do that. We don't do that. We are here for recruiters, we very much care about their wellbeing. 'Cause one of the things too is, especially in like these high volume, fast-paced industries, recruiters are doing phone interviews at the dinner table, late at night, across different time zones. And so it's like, Hey, you don't have to do that anymore so we're hopefully, hopefully making their everyday life better too. Chad: Qualifi the recruiter buddy. Darrian Mikell: Yeah, exactly. Chad: That's the recruiter buddy. Darrian Mikell: Boom. Joe: So you're gonna be on stage in a little bit. What are gonna be talking about What's the focus of your presentation? Darrian Mikell: Yeah. It's about capturing the candidate voice. So title of the presentation is beyond the resume the power of candidate voice. And obviously I'm biased, that's what we do every single day and I'm really excited about it. 'Cause part of the reason I wanna talk about it is most people don't know who we are, let alone the idea behind Qualifi. I would eventually venture to guess close to a 100% of our prospects, they weren't looking for an audio phone interviewing solution. They were probably looking for a way to automate, but they didn't know audio and voice was a medium that they could use to better their hiring practices. Chad: Well, it's hard when they don't know that they have a problem. They know that there's a problem there, but they don't know what it is. And then you come in and you say you have a problem. That's a lot of market education. So are you doing that call by call? How are you guys doing that? 'cause that's not easy. We were in the industry when job boards were created back in the day. So going and educating companies on, wait a minute, first off, this is what the internet symbol looks like then this is what job, a job board is. You guys are literally doing almost the exact same thing. It's much more advanced, don't get me wrong. So how hard is that? How are you going at the market? What's the go-to market when it comes to education? Darrian Mikell: Yeah, it's very difficult and we're learning along the way. Like what that means for a while is like brute force, like just straight up cold everything. We're selling you, pitching you, like we're teaching you, like you said, call by call. Now what we're learning is that it needs that just broader market education. So we're trying to do more stuff like this, show up at events that matter, produce better content. We have tons of data now. So hundreds of thousands of candidates have been through the platform. We're learning from that. So we're trying to be able to be authoritative resource to the people that might buy us or might not in the future, but looking at content as like a way to share the word about, and not only Qualifi, but what's possible. Joe: And my guess is, from a competitive standpoint, all of you have been educating the marketplace. Darrian Mikell: Yeah. Joe: How do you look at competition? 'Cause I think a lot of people, when they hear about your solution, it's like, Oh, I hear a little bit of this. I hear a little bit of that. How do you look at the competition? Darrian Mikell: I was actually going to say that just a second ago. I wish there was more competition sometimes. Like when we first got started... Chad: Is it like market validation kind of a thing? Darrian Mikell: Yeah. When we first got started, it was like, oh, no one's doing this. It is a novel idea. And that is honestly, like what part of what motivates me still to this day is, I know one, we've seen real results that are meaningful to our customers and just more people need to know about it. But when we do, there is an existing category around interviewing that I think we are like highly associated with, but most of the associations with video. And so that's where we can differentiate within the same category. But yeah, there is some of that education, but people that have experienced video tend to have negative correlation to the interviewing space. And so there is that shifting their thinking and getting them to come around to seeing our side. So I think there's like a love hate there. In some cases like, yeah, I would love more competition to validate the market. Chad: Not just validate, but educate. Darrian Mikell: Yeah, educate. Yeah. I think that's more so what it is. It's already validated, but like educating and like we're trying to create and define a category in some regards. And so it's like, sometimes you just want that to be already there and you just go into it and pivot and be a little bit different. And so that's a little bit of the challenge, but I think we're up for it. Joe: You mentioned being in business with your brother. I think that's an interesting dynamic. What are the pros? What are the cons of going into business with family? Chad: Do you arm wrestle for like hard decisions? How does that work? Darrian Mikell: No, it actually works. People say, don't go into business family, right? I would say go in business with the right family members. So I think I could go in business. I have two brothers. I think I could go in business with both of them, but I think I started with Devin in the right way. And I think what we did well was establish things early on, probably when it didn't matter that much in terms of like, hey, who's got, or like what the equity equation looks like, who's making these types of decisions? Where do we split duties? I think we work really well in that regards. And I think we haven't really had any like major arguments. We have had disagreements for sure, but we try to keep things in the right category. Like we're brothers first and then business partner second. And we try to separate, like even down to how we communicate, we use Slack for like our team. So we send Slack messages for Slack things, then I'll text him if it's just a personal thing. So we try not to mix... Joe: Does mom have a strict no business chat over holidays? Or can you... Darrian Mikell: We try to like not, I think we, we do talk about business at all times. It's hard not to, but we try to like not talk about it as much as we can when we're just together in person, 'cause as much as we talk to each other every single day, we're not always together in like a family environment. And so we try to maximize that. Chad: The big question is who wins one-on-one on the court? Darrian Mikell: Oh, for sure, me. For sure me. [laughter] I'm the Hooper, but if he was here, he would argue. We have the debate 'cause my older brother played in the NFL and we each, and all of us played collegiate. Chad: Athletically, just rich in the DNA here. Darrian Mikell: It comes from our parents. My dad played football. My dad would say my mom was probably a better athlete too. We were all athletes and so sports are very... Chad: Was she collegiate? Darrian Mikell: She didn't, but she played basketball, volleyball, all that sort of stuff growing up. And so, ran track, but we both did track and he technically, well, not technically, this is the older brother coming out. He's jumped. He has the longer long jump marks than I do. So I'll give him that credit. Chad: So where'd you get up to on high jump? Darrian Mikell: I jumped 6'9" in high school. Chad: Holy shit! 6'9"? Darrian Mikell: Yeah. Yeah. Joe: Wow. Darrian Mikell: But I did that in high school and I didn't get higher than that in college. Chad: Oh my god. Darrian Mikell: So I peaked early. Chad: That is ridic... And you're how tall just for everybody who's listening to the audio. Darrian Mikell: I'm 6'5". No, it's not. [laughter] Darrian Mikell: I'm 5'10", though for sure. Chad: 5'10". That is ridiculous. I thought I was saying something big yesterday. I was like, I jumped 6'2", right? He's like, nothing. You got nothing. Joe: Yeah, right. You can jump over me. So obviously competitive. Curious, what does the company look like in two, three years? You're obviously looking towards the future. What does this solution look like? Chad: Acquired? Darrian Mikell: That could be... I hope to continue to grow the company. And like I said, what I'm really excited about is one, I think we have an amazing team. We're 15 full-time folks. We're a remote team. Most of us are based in the Indianapolis area, but we have folks across the country hopefully to continue to expand the team, but then from a product and evolution of the company standpoint, getting at what I was talking about earlier, making it way more intelligent. I think we fulfill a strong need around just doing the job of like the phone interview and scheduling. But like you said, adding more automation intelligently I think is what I'm really excited about and capturing data. Joe: Global growth opportunities there or? Darrian Mikell: We've already touched into international territories. I think this year we'll kind of start that in some way more deeply through like partnerships. Chad: Was that through your US portfolio though, that they were expanding out? Darrian Mikell: Yeah, like the existing need of... Chad: So it's organic. Darrian Mikell: Right. Chad: It's not forced. Darrian Mikell: Yeah. I don't think we'll like make like a headlong launch into international waters yet, unless it's by way of like partnerships or through existing customers. But we do have the ability to translate all of our existing communications. And I think that's always been something interesting to me is like, what if you have two way conversation needs? Like, I need to recruit in a different language and so I can transcribe and send back. We can each speak in our native tongue. And I can understand without understanding. Yeah. If that makes sense. Joe: Yeah. That's gotta be coming. That's gotta be coming. Well, I can say that as an Indianapolis resident, it's really fun to watch the company grow and you be successful. For those listeners out there that don't know how to connect with you, where would you send them to learn more about Qualifi? Darrian Mikell: Yeah. So first, it's qualifi.hr, Qualifi, Q-U-A-L-I-F-I.hr Follow me on LinkedIn. And then also launching is my new podcast call Future at Work where I interview other founders like myself. And it's kind of a founders on founders behind the scenes focused on TA and HR. Chad: Nice. Darrian Mikell: And so my hope is to give the audience the opportunity to be like a fly on the wall to the conversations that they might not be privy to and conversation matter that's still interesting to them and help them do their jobs better. Chad: Sounds awesome. Joe: And where people say no to a demo, they'll say yes to an interview. So there might be some sales in that funnel coming soon. That is Darrian Mikell, everybody. Chad, another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to what's it called? The podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar. Blue. Nacho. Pepper Jack. Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

In today's episode, we're diving into the world of LinkedIn, where reports suggest the platform is dipping its toes into gaming with puzzle-based experiences like "Queens" and "Inference." But is LinkedIn playing games or getting serious about engagement? We'll discuss. But first, let's talk funding. Milan's Talentware just secured €800,000 for its AI-driven SaaS platform, while NOVA, a freelancer hub, snagged $1.75M in seed funding. Talent management software is hot, folks, and NOVA's growth from a private Instagram page to a powerhouse in the freelance world is impressive. Now, onto the self-serve saga. Big retailers like Dollar General, Target, and Walmart are rethinking self-checkout due to theft concerns and customer experience woes. Dollar General's pulling out self-checkouts in some stores, while Target's implementing "express self-checkout" with item limits. Who would've thought petty crime would lead to job creation? PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. Because what happens in the Red Light District stays in the Red light district. Hey kids, you're listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Van Gogh Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad who gave me that fucking Jaeger bomb Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, LinkedIn plays games, self-checkout is fading, and who'd you rather? Let's do this. Yeah, I texted my wife that I had done a Jaeger bomb and she said, "What is it, your 21st birthday?" [laughter] Joel: Oh man, that was so bad. Chad: Yeah, when they came to the table, Thanks, Bill Boorman. Thanks Bill Boorman. They came to the table, two handfuls of Jaeger bombs. I'm like, "What is this shit? What is going on here?" I was just a welcome to Europe from Mr. Borman. Joel: I don't even remember what's in a Jaeger bomb outside of Jaeger. Is it Red Bull? Like what... Chad: I think it is. Joel: Okay. Red Bull and yeah, awesome. [laughter] Joel: Homeboy is not human. He's like the Winston Churchill. Have you ever seen the Winston Churchill daily diet? It's like scotch and cigars all day and he lived to 90. That's Bill Boorman. Chad: Yeah. Except Borman doesn't do cigars. He just doubles up on the scotch. Joel: Yeah. And the no sleep thing. I think Churchill got some sleep while he was busy fighting the Nazis. Chad: But I mean, Borman's only like 30 years old. [laughter] Joel: Not true. Chad: It's taken a toll. It's taken a toll. Joel: Yeah. He's not quite 90 yet. He only looks it. Chad: I love that guy. Love that guy. Joel: Yeah, good stuff. Chad: I also love Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze and Rika Coppens isn't too bad either. My God, we had a blast yesterday. Joel: What a great show. So yeah, we failed to mention that we're recording from Amsterdam. We were at the e-recruitment congress. Chad: Amsterdam. Joel: Which is usually in Belgium, but they put it in Amsterdam this year. What a great conference. What a hidden gem that most of people in the states have no idea. Or in Europe. Chad: The Muziekgebouw. Joel: Yeah, it's this multi-billion dollar company, Bain Capital. They're growing this Congress. It could be an up and coming thing that becomes mainstream for everybody. All our RecFest and Unleash. But great conference and I love how they utilize us. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They put us in the balcony, all old Muppet guys. And so many conferences you get a presentation and they like, Does anyone have a question in the audience? And it's this awkward sort of moment where, who's going to ask the question, what's it going to be? You got to run the microphone to the person that raises their hands. Chad: It's just awkward. Joel: Yeah. So with this setup, the presentation goes, they know they're going to get Q and A, they sit down on the couch, we hit 'em with a little banter, little questions, and I think it runs much more smoothly. I think more conferences should have journalists, podcasters, bloggers, whatever, there to ask questions right after their session. I think it's great. Chad: Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. And I am ready, just about ready, to wrap up this whirlwind tour. Julie and I went to Vegas and that's when we left the house. Then we spent a couple of days in Houston doing visa stuff for Portugal and then we came straight here from Houston. So it's been a whirlwind trip. It's been a blast. Europeans are amazing. They always make it fun and they always want to show you around. I hope I get to see everybody. If I don't, I'm sorry. I'll see you next time. Joel: It's so laid back and chill here. I love it. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So you're here for a few more days. You leave what, Saturday? Chad: Yeah, leaving Saturday afternoon. Yeah. Joel: So I'm headed out. I've never been to Germany so I'm just going to take a few days, gonna go to Dusseldorf where Bill Boorman is going to be. I'm gonna try to avoid him as much as possible. [laughter] Joel: He's got a little VOK thing there apparently. I'm try, I'm doubling down on my penicillin so I don't catch the VOK while I'm in Dusseldorf. Chad: Good call. Joel: And then I'm headed to, we call it Cologne, but apparently it's Colon or Koln. Anyway, I'll be there for a couple days, flying out of there, coming back Saturday. And then we get a good month or so off of travel. So recovery time. Chad: It is weird how we I mean, Americans, try to America-fy all the... And maybe it's not just us, maybe it's the rest of the English speaking world. But yeah, the way that you spell Cologne is K-O-L... The O has an umlaut. K-O-L-N, right? So Koln. But we call it Cologne, so have fun. Joel: Yeah, it's from like Koln. Koln. Okay, well this is an abbreviated show. We're both pretty hungover, which if you're watching on YouTube, you can figure that out. If not... Chad: Lucky bastards. Joel: It's definitely in Chad's voice. I think my voice might be a little better this morning, but we'll get back to the birthdays, but we cannot fail to mention that if you like free stuff, go to chadcheese.com, click the free link. We're getting new T-shirts printed up so those will be going out shortly. We got a bourbon selection from Textkernel, free beer from Aspen Tech Labs. And if it's your birthday month, you might just win... Chad: Rum from... Joel: Rum from Plum. And if I can find the soundbite that everybody loves, we can maybe at least give people some of that. Chad: There you go. I need that. SFX: Can you feel I need the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: I could feel a little Kebu in my plums last night. Chad: Oh God. Yeah. Joel: If you haven't enjoyed some Kebu kids, that's right. The Euro sensation. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Kebu. Alright, that's... Chad: If you're in our socials, you've probably seen the Kebu. Joel: That's enough of that this morning. Yeah, that's enough of that. Chad: [chuckle] Wanna thank Geert Jan who was here, we got to see him. And then also got to see Gerard from Textkernel, T-shirt that you're wearing if you're watching on YouTube, so... Joel: I didn't see Gerard. I didn't get my Gerard time. I'm very upset about that. So yeah, I got the TextKernel rockin'. Chad: He was ducking in, trying to duck you. Joel: He's a busy guy. I get it, I get it. He's a busy guy. Just like the news from this week. SFX: Topics. Joel: All right. Little LinkedIn goodness. Reports say LinkedIn is venturing into gaming with puzzle-based experiences like Queens and Inference. Why do this, you ask? Well, they're apparently aiming to increase user engagement and deepen connections, expanding beyond its traditional professional focus. Chad, is LinkedIn just playing games here, or are they really serious this time? Chad: Oh it's so bad. Yeah, I get the whole sticky part, but this, to me, doesn't make any sense. And this is not gonna... How's it going to deepen connections? I mean, I can see that, maybe play Wordle against... Joel: It's like a Kitty Powers dialogue, monologue. Chad: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Not to mention you're talking about professional network, which on the professional side of the house you want to stay with productivity, and productivity and games don't kind of go together. So instead of doing my jobs, my job or my project, I'm on LinkedIn playing a crossword puzzle or some stupid shit. Who knows what kind of fucked up games LinkedIn's gonna play. But I can't say it enough, LinkedIn needs to revitalize the platform itself. It needs to stop adding stupid shit on it. They've had, what, the videos and the Instagram and the podcast and all these things that just kind of were thrown there, and they haven't gotten any traction, right? I mean, you could say they've been utter failures while the infrastructure that is LinkedIn is decades old. So I don't understand why they're spending so much time with these stupid little projects when they have a big issue. When the Titanic is sinking, you don't rearrange the deck chairs. Okay? Joel: Mm-hmm. I like that. I like that. SFX: Sixty percent of the time it works, every time. Joel: So when I first read this headline, I thought, Oh, they're introducing some sort of tradeify, PlayMetrics, visual assessment gaming thing. No, no, this is like chess or checkers on LinkedIn, which is... I just don't get it. Maybe it's a 20% extra time thing, but they would be much more served if they were creating some sort of visual assessment that people could take as part of their LinkedIn experience. So that was kind of a bummer. Look, I agree with you. They need to focus on the blocking and tackling. Their job search sucks. We've talked about that pretty extensively. Stability of the platform. All that stuff can be improved for sure. Why they're wasting time and resources on games is kind of ridiculous. I mean, just open up an app store and have people develop games like Facebook, if you're going to do that. Which actually would be kind of interesting if LinkedIn opened up an app store. And you mentioned the video. I actually think they may have bailed on video too quickly. Chad: Oh, yeah. Too early. Joel: Just from our video experience, the shorts that we put out are very popular. They had shorts. Maybe they could have put it within the feed as opposed to just up at top. There are ways to increase engagement that video brings that they just scrapped. And I think that would be a much better idea to bring back stories, just do it better. Learn from what TikTok and Reels has done to get more engagement. But, yeah, I don't get the games. I think it's just really stupid. It was kind of seen in the wild. Maybe it's an experiment that got loose that shouldn't have. But if LinkedIn becomes this games platform, it could be a jump the shark moment. I don't know. Chad: Well, I think what you're seeing is it's an advertising play and they need people to stay on the platform longer to click on more shit, to at least see more shit so you get the impressions that are playing through. They're tying, it feels like they're trying their damnedest to be an advertising platform with a bunch of professionals on it. Joel: Fix the videos. Fix the shorts. Fix the shorts. Chad: You could do some things. You could do some really amazing things with videos. There are connectivity opportunities within LinkedIn. There always have been, right? Joel: That's where ads are. That's... Everyone's creating TikTok ads, Reels. Yeah, like, dude, I don't get it. Chad: The LinkedIn lives, I mean, people do them, but a lot of them, they don't really get the traction, but still they're using it. I think they could amp that up. They could use more of that. They could actually do like Riverside does. We go into Riverside after we're done, we click magic clips and it creates like 20 different snippet videos of our podcast. It's easy. Or an opus clip or something like that. They could do something like that. You would have your LinkedIn live and boom, you could turn shorts into... I mean, it could be a content generating machine, but they're doing stupid shit like playing chess. But again, if they were doing something... I don't want to talk about the popping the balloon of Pymetrics, which I think is the stupidest fucking games we've ever seen. And they say this measures your risk tolerance. Joel: Yeah. [chuckle] Chad: No, it doesn't. You're fucking stupid. We even heard Hilke Schellmann, who spoke this week, who wrote the book called Algorithm, she was on the show a few months back, even talking about how stupid that shit is. If there was something that could be used, chess, these different things, rankings and whatnot, that would help understand maybe mental fitness or something of that nature, that might make sense. But I still think it's outside of the Tam of LinkedIn. Joel: Fix video. And by the way, Microsoft owns Teams, which is a video platform. Like, it can't be that hard to integrate some video shit. Partner, I don't get it. I don't get it. Well, let's take a quick break. I need a new... I need another glass of water, and we'll talk a little, Who'd you rather? All right, Chad. It's time to play a little game that we like to call, Who'd You Rather? If you haven't heard us play this one before, we talk about two startups that have gotten funding and Chad and I decide, Who'd You Rather? SFX: Hi, Poppy. Joel: All right, let's play. Here we go, and in corner number one, we got Milan's Talentware, founded by Bain alumni. They've secured 800,000 euros for their AI-driven SaaS platform, which aids companies in talent management, development, and retention through personalized, skills-based approaches. Funding aims to enhance team and foster growth. That is Talentware. Next up, we have Nova, a freelancer hub. They've secured 1.75 million in seed funding. The startup aims to empower creative freelancers and bring gaps in talent management. The app facilitates connections, job postings, and career growth. So that gives us Talentware and Nova. Chad, Who'd You Rather? Chad: Oh, this is a hard one. I'm gonna let you go first. I'm gonna, I think. Joel: Oh, yeah? Chad: Either one of these guys, at 2:00 AM, I'm not sure which one I walk home with, so I'm gonna let you go first. I'm still thinking in my clouded brain, Jaeger brain, this morning on this one. Joel: Okay, okay. Well, I'm gonna stay consistent with Talentware. These sort of secondary players that look at bigger companies that have a lot more money, a lot more brand awareness, a lot more resources, the lattices, the deals, the gloats, the list goes on and on, Bob. Look, talent management software is a very competitive space, and you can say like, Well, they've proven the model. It's an in-demand product. But I just think when you bring a squirt gun to a gunfight, it's not gonna end very well for you. My prediction is within 24 months, these guys will probably fold up or sell to a bigger fish. Nova, I originally thought, Well, this is kind of like Camino, which has a head start, maybe... I've never quite understood why Camino hasn't taken off more than it has. They had a great start helping with some director's video production, but this thing is really interesting in the organic nature of it. Joel: In less than a year, they've started as a private Instagram page sharing job postings for freelancers. They've grown to over 19,000 followers and they filled over 8,000 jobs and say that they've helped book nearly $10,000,000 in work. They've got investors from Spotify, Tesla, and Burberry. It feels kind of like Craigslist where they just kind of threw up something and the community embraced it and they've run with it. So for me, what I think the better business might be, the talent management, I think it's way too competitive for what Talentware is doing. So for me, Nova is a supernova, my friend, and that is what I'd rather. Chad: Bad, bad. Okay, so I thought Nova was interesting, especially spinning out of Instagram, an Instagram account. Joel: Yep. Chad: I mean, that, that's just... You don't hear that much, right? "Well, this worked on Instagram." It's a great way to at least start to see if an idea gains traction. And they found traction. They did find traction. On the Talentware side of the house, you're right. Not to mention they're in Milan. They're in Italy, which means more than likely they are gonna try to take this to Europe as a whole. Italy's not a great market to try to start in. There's not a lot of cash in Italy compared to trying to start in Germany or France or the UK but then again, you have all the issues of languages and culture. And for me, again, for us learning a lot of this over the last few years here in Europe and working with a lot of European organizations, to me, with something like you said that is so competitive, number one. Number two, the TAM is so big. Number three, it's in Europe. I mean, how much more complex can you fucking get? Joel: Yeah. Chad: They do have cash. They do have backers, they have smart dudes. But I think Nova has proven itself. It is a very small TAM, by the way. But I think they can grow out of that. I think there's a there there, right? And when were talking about Camino, I think one of the hardest things is we know the guys over at Camino, love those guys. They know the people in the industry. The only problem is they don't know the recruiting in the gig industry, right? Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: That's where a lot of companies fall down. Just because you know the industry that you're going into doesn't mean that you can recruit into that industry. You can gig into that industry. You can create technology that is sticky, LinkedIn, in that industry, right? So yeah, I'm gonna go with the little, very small, although I think powerful, Nova. SFX: What are you doing, Step bro? Joel: Alright, that's two for Nova, everybody. And that closes another round of, Who'd You Rather? We're gonna take a quick break. Remember, folks, listen to the ads. There is no show without sponsors. When we get back, we'll talk a little self-service, and it may not be what you're thinking of. All right, Chad, is this the end of self-serve checkout? Big retailers like Dollar General, Target, and Walmart are scaling back on self-checkout due to theft concerns and customer experience issues. Dollar General is removing self-checkouts from some stores and limiting purchases in others. Target implements express self-checkout with a limited number of items, and Walmart is toying with Walmart Plus members only getting self-checkout. Is this the end, and is full service back in, Chad? Your thoughts. Chad: Yeah, well, first and foremost, we're in Amsterdam right now so there's no such thing as self-service. You've got full service at the Red Light District. All you got to do is go window shopping and there's full service right there. Yes, yeah, this to me, and I hate to take a dark turn here, but this is what happens when the poverty line starts moving up. People start stealing shit. People aren't doing this. We're not seeing the rise in crime and stealing shit because they want the high quality Target jeans or clothes or what have you. It's because they need the food. I mean it's one of those things. And they see gaps in security so therefore they take it. And they also called back to the article in, around the pandemic saying that the pandemic, it was great through the pandemic 'cause they didn't have to have people and obviously you had space and so on and so forth. But they were doing self-checkout way before the fucking pandemic. Joel: Yep. Chad: So I see, I think we're seeing something happen here that people are trying to, they're trying to associate to something that it's not. I think this is a poverty issue. I think that wages haven't climbed fast enough. Yes, wages are getting better, but they haven't climbed fast enough and they're definitely not climbing as fast as the fucking CEO pay that's out there. So we start seeing this kind of like spiral into the poverty. When the poverty line raises, we see these things happen. It's unfortunate, it really is, because I think this is a societal problem. And when you're talking about some of these locations like San Francisco, San Francisco is a expensive fucking place to live. I mean, it just is. And don't just think this is happening on the coast. This is happening everywhere. Joel: That escalated quickly. Chad: Sorry. Joel: So I'll try to stay away from the politics of this. The other side of that argument would be that crime punishment has declined. Anything under $1,000 you can just walk out of the store and not get prosecuted. So is it the left argument or right? The fact is it's happening. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Earnings call after earnings call is like, We're feeling this pain. There's shrinkage. Chad: If people are hungry, people are hungry. It doesn't matter. [chuckle] Joel: Doesn't matter, but it's happening. What's ironic to me is, we're gonna employ more people because of this. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We're going to employ more people checking people out as a result of whether it's crime, poverty, whatever. And I guess that's a good thing. I, not to sound elitist, I've never stepped into a Dollar General but my impression is that they are not the best places in the world to shop. They're eliminating self checkout altogether. So that means a lot more people employed by Dollar General for better or worse. Target, and I've shopped at Target, and people bring the cart to self-checkout and it is like a snake line. Chad: It's ridiculous. Joel: It's waiting and it's almost, you're almost incentivized to go to the full service 'cause there's nobody in line. So, I mean, Target, it feels just more like yes, whether it's theft, I don't think there's as much poverty at Target or people that are desperate. It's just assholes who want to checkout 48 items in the self-checkout. So good for them for saying like, Look, it's 10 items, which has probably always been 10 items, people just ignore it. The Walmart's a little odd to me. I know they want to be Amazon. I know they want these prime members, these Walmart Plus members, and it's kind of a nice little incentive. They probably have an issue there as well with people loading up the cart and then trying to get out. Ultimately this means more jobs. It probably means a better shopping experience, at least for me at Target and all the moms, the soccer moms that are there getting their fragrances and their Dockers. Joel: So yeah, I got nothing else but that. And I'm sorry, folks. I usually have a witty way to end the show. I'm hungover and I don't have one. I'm sorry, Chad. Do you got anything funny? You got anything funny to end the show? I guess we could just end in some Kebu. That might be... Chad: Oh, Kebu would be great. Joel: Yeah, Kebu? Alright. [music] Joel: You're welcome, world. Chad: You're welcome. Joel: No witty ending. Just... Chad: This is Europe, baby. Joel: Just some Kebu. Chad: I gotta say, coming out of a lunch break straight into Kebu was fricking awesome. I mean it, and for those who weren't at the Congress, it was hilarious. Everybody gets back in after lunch. We're all, you get kind of like the cloudy brain because all your breath, all the blood in your head is in your stomach. So you can't think. Well, they wheel out Kebu. Joel: Yep. Chad: And it just like amps the whole crowd up and that gets the whole afternoon, sets the tone for the afternoon. So I think at least, Lieven, if you're listening, Kebu should be a staple, should be a staple. Guy should get in his van from Finland and drive all those Korg keyboards to wherever they're having the e-recruitment congress every year. Joel: Some of the most European shit I've ever seen. I was waiting for A-ha and the Sprockets guys to come out and start. Chad: Oh, yeah. Touch my monkey. Touch my monkey. Joel: Oh my, god. Did we just do a weekly show in less than 30 minutes? Chad: Yes. Joel: That's awesome. Chad: Alright, well... Joel: We'll see you next week, everybody. We out. [applause] Joel: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. The talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It is so weird. We out.

This week on Chad & Cheese, Blueboard has shut down due to financial struggles. Indeed is rumored to be changing its policy on how employers can contact veterans, while apparently eliminating organic traffic in the US. Microsoft appoints Mustafa Suleyman as CEO of its AI division to compete with OpenAI, Google, and other Big Tech companies. Anthropic's Claude 3 Opus surpasses GPT-4 on the Chatbot Arena leaderboard, marking the first non-OpenAI model to do so. Mark Zuckerberg is also personally recruiting Google DeepMind talent for Meta AI without requiring interviews. HR AI is also on the rise, with Toronto-based Borderless AI and its HR assistant Alberni securing $27 million in seed funding. Hippocratic AI raises $53 million in Series A funding, bringing its valuation to $500 million. Economists argue that immigration has been a major boon for the economy, boosting employment and consumer spending. Policymakers like Federal Reserve Chairman Jay Powell acknowledge the benefits of migration on labor shortages. BMW is testing robot workers at its South Carolina plant, and a controversy at a Florida school over a mother's OnlyFans account sticker on her car led to the expulsion of nine students. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire. Podcast Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who eat the chocolate bunny ears first. What's up, kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Francis Scott Key Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad, is that a toxic culture? Sowash. Joel: And on this week's episode, Indeed hates veterans. The AI talent wars heat up. And Florida just keeps Florida-ing. Let's do this. Chad: Welcome home. Joel: Welcome home welcome home. So Chad, we're both married. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And we know that there tends to be some lines you can't cross where at least my wife will say look if you do X we're gonna, we're divorcing right and this is usually you know cheating, cooking meth in the basement, kicking puppies you know stuff like that. So my wife gave me a new one this week. It was if you buy shares of Truth Social, I will divorce you so this is Donald Trump's lifeline, I think, to his economic troubles. I do like the ticker symbol, which is DJT for Donald J. Trump. Chad: Anybody think it was going to be anything different? Joel: I thought that was an interesting ticker symbol to choose. Needless to say, although the stock did pretty well along with Reddit this week, although Reddit's coming back to earth, and I'm sure DJT will as well. Chad: It's a great money laundering scheme is what it is I mean, he they say that he has to wait six months to be able to cash out, in., unless the board who are all his people say that he can go ahead and cash out. So, Yeah. It's a great ultimatum. Way to go, Christine. Joel: Any thoughts on the Reddit IPO? I was really hopeful that it would sort of break the dam on IPOs, which initially I thought it would. And a lot of the pundits were saying so, but it's kind of coming back to earth. Chad: Why would it break the dam? Joel: I mean, it basically doubled this week, and now it's coming back to earth. But if any IPO that comes out that isn't Birkenstock, and it's like tech, and it does well like stripe is waiting to go public I mean they're. Chad: It's a message board. Joel: Totally. Chad: So all of these people that I hear talking about like you know this is going to be it that this is going to happen it's going to go to the moon it's like what where the fuck we're talking about AI we're talking about some of the most fluid systems of today velocity of tech moving so fast not this. This is not it, this has nothing to do with all of the really cool conversations we've been having so you I don't understand why all these "pundits" And again, I'm not giving out financial advice, but there's no way in fucking hell I'm going to put my money into a 1979 Gremlin. It doesn't make any sense. Joel: And by the way, their users hate advertising and won't pay a subscription fee for anything. Chad: It doesn't make any sense. Joel: I agree. Although selling the data could be pretty profitable. All these LLMs that need content and stuff to use for learning. Chad: Oh. Yeah. And then if that happens, guess what? All the people are going to eject, and there's not gonna be any data to be had. So, I mean, it's just, again, it's a fucking message board, dude, with sub message boards. I mean, come on this is 1990s shit. We did this... Joel: I am not pitching Reddit to you. I am not like pitching it. Chad: I just don't get it. I don't understand. I just don't understand. Joel: There's a lot of money. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Look, the IPO market's been dry for a long time. Chad: So put it in a turd. Joel: Literally, Birkenstock was the last exciting one. People want to spend money, they want an exciting IPO. Chad: Oh God, man. We'll get into that. Okay. So somebody who's not excited right now, there's some rumors over at SmartRecruiters remember a few weeks ago when SmartRecruiters's acquisition was fumbled. We called it botched, but it was fumbled my sources say that CEO Michael DeSimone is out and Chief Product Officer, Rebecca Carr, is now the interim CEO for context. Michael was announced as CEO about a year ago, April 18th, 2023. So I'm gonna surmise that the fumbled, the botched, whatever you wanna call it acquisition might have been the last straw. So good luck to Michael. Sorry, man. Shit like that happens wherever he lands. Hopefully he does well and good luck to Rebecca Carr because she's taking over a shit show right now. Getting into the head seats. I mean, it's very turbulent times at SmartRecruiters. One system that we used to see is kinda like new age applicant tracking system with all this new tech that's coming out. And then the paradoxes and the shit, the fountains and the Harry's and whatnot. I mean, they're really recreating what talent acquisition and talent management and whatnot. And now she's gotta take over this jalopy, this gremlin. I mean, good luck, Rebecca. Good luck. Joel: Take over and take off. SFX (Sound Effects): Take off Lee. We're doing our movie. Don't Wreck our show you looser. Chad: I'm not Canadian, but, okay. Joel: How many, man, my memory sucks on this, but in the last 24 months, the number of ATSs that have either lost replaced a CEO is like five-ish. I think like big names that we know so it's a tough business. There's no IPO in sight for these companies. Chad: It's gonna get tougher. Joel: I mean, iCIMs, SmartRecruiters, greenhouse, we've talked about IPOs, like there seems to be no end of the road that's positive for these ATSs. And you can see it on the management teams. But great Scoop. Great scoop. Yeah. SmartRecruiters, man. Chad: There you go. Joel: I got nothing. I got nothing. Well, let's see if I can conjure up a. SFX (Sound Effects): Shout out. Joel: For the folks. All right, Chad, we've talked about Veritone sponsor of the show, by the way. Full disclosure on that one. Their stock has been meddling to say the least for the last year or so. Well, they finally are out of the celler rat style their stock has hit 180% increase in the last month, thanks to a positive earnings report demand for its developer tools. They have a nifty API that apparently is hitting with a lot of developers. And of course, anything with AI on it is gonna be doing pretty well in the stock market. Again, we're not recommending stocks one way or the other, but this thing right now, is doing very well this year. So I know that the team over there has been struggling trying to get things back on track. So at least this month, it looks like things are looking good for Veritone. So happy for those as if they need any better news. Living in Southern California, riding a boat on the. SFX (Sound Effects): Joel: Warm waters, and... Chad: It doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt. Joel: Eating shrimp cocktail in a cob salad for lunch on Sundays. Chad: Does not hurt shout out to companies who rectify bad hiring decisions. What do I mean? What do I mean by that? Well, you might've heard that after being ousted from the Republican National Committee chair, Ronna McDaniels was then hired by NBC News as a political analyst. Imagine that. And then an employee on Air Rebellion ensued, which then met that NBC news rescinded the job offer to McDaniels NBCUniversal News Group. President Cesar Conde said the following, "I wanna personally apologize to our team members who felt we let them down end." Leadership isn't always about taking the raise when you do the right things. It's also about taking action when you fuck stuff up. And Cesar fucked some stuff up here, and his people knew, and they let him know. SFX (Sound Effects): You're so dumb. You're really dumb. For real. Joel: Yeah. This is a hot story that I haven't followed at all. My more left-leaning friends were in a tizzy about this one. And they're happy about the exodus of her. I don't know what she said. Did she have a show? Did she like crossfire somebody in a debate? Was it just her past that they said she doesn't deserve to be here? Chad: She literally was just pushed out of the RNC, just pushed out of the RNC. And not to mention, she's also, I think, a witness for a lot of the shit that's happening, even especially in Michigan. So it was pretty much a bridge too far for any journalist to say that they wanted her on the team. So whether it's right, left, doesn't matter. It's when you try to overthrow a government and you're leading the charge on that, it's probably a bridge too far. Joel: Well, from one bad hire to maybe a good hire that they could look at. I don't know if you've seen this. Mike Tyson is having a moment. Mike Tyson is having a moment. We talked about him going on Netflix this summer to fight is it Jake? Jake Paul, or Logan? Chad: One of the Pauls. Joel: One of the brothers there. Chad: Yeah. I think they actually have like a tag team set up where they can tag in and out. I could be wrong. Joel: Really? One's a legit fighter. The other one, I don't think Logan is. If it's not... I'm pretty sure it's Jake. But anyway, Mike Tyson's having a moment. He's probably had a decade or a century so far the hangover was maybe his peak. But anyway, you know that I love a good edible Chad. Oh, yeah. And based on your story from Vegas, I'm just an admirer of them. Well, Mike Tyson is as well. So New York legalized cannabis. So Tyson bites are coming to market now. You might wanna know what's unique about Tyson bites. Well, if you know anything about Mike Tyson, you know he fought Evander Holyfield back in the '90s and bit part of his ear off. So yes, Tyson Bites are in the shape of an ear. So you can do edibles in the shape of an ear and admire Mike Tyson on the packaging as you get loopy on some cannabis. Tyson Bites shout out to Mike Tyson for having a moment. We've all forgotten about the rape and the beating up of people. America's a great place to forgive and make some cash everybody. Chad: Yeah. I wonder if Evander gets any money off of this since that was his ear. So, that's a depiction of his ear, so therefore he should get a cut. I mean, makes sense. Joel: That's a great legal argument, Chad. Yeah. Makes sense. He certainly should. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And Evander's hurting for money as far as I know, having 37 kids sometimes will put you in... Chad: You know what though? If he signs up for free stuff and they all sign up for free stuff, they can get free t-shirts. Who's coming at you? From Aaron app. We have a new T-shirt design kids that we will probably release that this week so everybody can partake and they can check it out. But from my understanding, Mr. Cheeseman, they are in production. Is that correct? SFX (Sound Effects): Alright. Alright. Alright. Chad: Yes. Yes. Joel: Now we go for the free shipping so we don't get the rush order. So it will be a little bit of time. People like it's... But we'll get... The goal is it's gonna be the summer of Chad and Cheese T-shirts everyone's gonna be sporting these at the pool, at the beach, at the local Chipotle and the Dairy Queen. Chad: At the casino. Yeah. Yeah. Joel: Casino on the Stratosphere. Chad: Yes. Joel: Yes. Free. Shit. Not only T-shirts, Chad, what else can they get going to chadcheese.com and click on the free link. Chad: Beer from Aspen Tech Labs. Our friends over at Aspen Tech Labs. If you need job content and you want that all nice and scraped, all pretty, pretty much everybody goes to Aspen Tech Labs. They do the hard stuff. Whiskey from our friends at... And last but not least, if it's your birthday, you might be able to win some rum from Plum. SFX (Sound Effects): Really? Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: Oh, I've missed the roll call of birthdays being on the road chats. Let's, get to it. Chad: Like half hour. Joel: Celebrating another trip around the sun listeners Timmy Smith, Tim O Hill Horst, Josh Wayne Wright, Brian Barnes, Hayden Hughes, Derek James Bond. Melissa Malcolm in the middle. Megan Sharp. Dan Cheeseman, no relation. Oh, Elan Martin Zone. Chad: There we go. Joel: If I said that correctly, one of our favorite Swedes. James Holman. Paulo Barega, Thomas O'Hara, Simon Evans. Steve Levy, Jessica Rush, Mike Timkin, who's enjoying retirement from what I understand let's hope. Chad: And the show. Joel: And last but not least, Jeremy Cheeseman. Chad: Yes. Joel: That's right. My soon to be 7-year-old celebrates another trip around the sun. SFX (Sound Effects): Happy birthday. Joel: This year, by the way. His birthday coincides with the number of years that this stupid ass podcast has been running. So every time it's his birthday, it reminds me of my mistakes that I've made and the pendants that I have to pay every week with you. Chad: Dealing with me every single... Well, more than once a week it's event times kids. We have UNLEASH America happening in Vegas on May 7th through the ninth. Now UNLEASH is always a blast. Last year we did a VIP event on the high roller, but apparently that wasn't high enough as this year, the Chad and Cheese are jumping off the stratosphere in Vegas with Matt, the CEO of Outhire. Can you believe that shit. Now this is coming from Wikipedia. Listen to this. Sky Jump Las Vegas is located at The Strat on the Las Vegas strip. It holds the Guinness World Record for highest commercial decelerators descent with an official height. Get ready, Cheeseman 829 feet. We're gonna be jumping 829 feet. Now, if you would like to join us or nominate someone to jump, just go to chadcheese.com and right there on the homepage, click on the jump with us button. That's gonna be a blast. SFX (Sound Effects): Jump! Might as well jump. Joel: Also on Google there's only been one death jumping on the stratosphere. It was a suicide though. They weren't strapped in. Chad: Oh, that's not the same. Joel: So just make sure you hold my hand and get me strapped in before I fall to my death. Alright. Chad: Then we have a VIP event at the Neon Boneyard with Plum. What's the Neon Boneyard you might ask? SFX (Sound Effects): It's winning. Chad: It's where all of the neon signs of Vegas, pretty much of yesteryear. They go, they don't die. Oh no. It's gonna be a night event. So Plum's, attendees can marvel and bask in the glow of Neon while we drink and probably enjoy some edibles. Joel: Love the old hard rock sign, the guitar. Chad: Yeah. No. Good stuff. Yeah. Joel: And allegedly, you're my Vegas news source they're doing a hotel that's shaped like a guitar. That'll be the new Hard Rock. Is it true? You've heard that too? Chad: I've heard that, but I've heard it over and over and over. I mean, they have hotels with swimming pools, the shape of guitar they've got... It's kind of like they're shtick, so it wouldn't surprise me. Doesn't make me want to stay there anymore but... Joel: But would you stay there if they played Kabu in the lobby, would that make you reconsider. Chad: The minus five experience where you go into the cold bar and you put on the coats and stuff like that? We're gonna be doing that with Omar and Job Pixel. In that, that kabu is almost like great soundtrack for something like that. You feel like you're in Helsinki, you feel like you need to warm up and you need a little kabu. SFX (Sound Effects): All right. All right. All right. Joel: I love it. Have you been to the Ice Bar? Chad: No. Joel: No. I haven't either. Chad: I don't like cold stuff. Joel: But it looks awesome. That's very, very cool. Chad: Thanks, Omar. Joel: I don't like cold stuff. SFX (Sound Effects): Celebrate! . Joel: All right. Not necessarily breaking news, Chad, but it's breaking news to us it kind of went quietly, but... Chad: We've been away. Joel: Yeah. We have been away. So employee Reward software company, Blueboard. Have you heard of them? Maybe seen them at an expo or? Chad: They sound familiar. Joel: At some point. Yeah, they were kind of a thing 10 years ago, eight years ago. Anyway they've mysteriously disappeared, they've laid everybody off and they've gone out of business. So if you're a Blueboard client, I'm sure you're aware of this they hopefully didn't just walk away anyway, they had raised nearly $16 million in Series A funding founded back in 2014. So the 10 year runway didn't make it. I mean, the employee rewards thing we talk about a lot, and it seemed to like kind of hit its stride in the pandemic, making employees feel nice and special and apparently didn't work out for Blueboard. So I kind of wonder, all these employee engagement companies, are they on the same path as Blueboard. Blackbeard and Blueboard. Chad: A decade old company that isn't, let's say, for instance, a vital piece of tech? Yeah. I can see that kind of going away or not going IPL let's just say that. Joel: Yeah. 10 years is a pretty long runway yo end it anyway. Chad: Yeah. For a platform that's not a vital platform, it's not a vital point solution. You don't hear companies who are just, literally looking for RFPs for these types of platforms. Joel: No. But if you're looking for some folks that have some experience in this industry, go to LinkedIn, check out the Blueboard veterans, they might be looking for work, Chad. And if they're looking for work, they might be on Indeed. Which brings us to our real topics of the week. Chad: Here we go. Joel: The Indeed rumor mill keeps churning Chad, this time, they're rumored to change how employers can contact veterans sources say starting April 2nd Indeed is shifting to resume seats receiving 10 complimentary resume contacts a month for veterans down from unlimited outreach messages. But wait there's more. Indeed is rumored to be sending letters to ad agencies saying organic traffic in the US will no longer be a thing. Don't say, we didn't warn you, everybody. Chad, what are your thoughts? And you might have some additional information as I know that your phone was ringing off the hook before the show. Chad: Yes, definitely phone was blowing up late yesterday and today So on the veteran side of the house, I mean, it's to me. That's a so-what scenario They were doing it just for pomp and circumstance and fluff in the first place Not to mention, you know companies have no fucking clue what they're looking at when they're looking at military resumes. So, but to me all of this literally is nothing but a cry for help from Indeed Which is what we've seen CPA died CPSA died and then they started the the the whole tech community thing then they started the the Indeed Japan. There's just so much that they're doing right now. They are throwing every piece of spaghetti... Joel: Don't forget job tracker the Android app that didn't succeed which... Chad: All over the place, right? But this this to me, especially the the taking away of organic is just another bid to soak companies for more money They're slowly pulling the plug on organic traffic starting in in the US. All of my contacts have said get ready for organic traffic to go away entirely Which means what? Indeed is once again moving toward a 1990s pay-to-play job board model with the only caveat being CPC right because CPC didn't exist in job boards in 1990s so literally they went from a job search engine and they've reverted I mean, they've literally regressed back into a job board model Recruitment ad agencies have been instructed due to these changes if your clients jobs are receiving less traffic from the free Organic, well, you should probably sponsor jobs. Yeah, no shit Sherlock Indeed's also pitching. This is really just a rebalancing of traffic. Chad: So Obviously free has gotten too much and they needed to get more payment on clicks So they needed to push more people to clicks So from my standpoint, this isn't really a rebalancing This is an old platform that they tried and again rumors that I've heard They've tried to put a ceiling on the number of apps Candidate applications on free jobs. It didn't work. They couldn't make that work So, I guess this old dog just isn't gonna hunt what do you think about the whole CPC thing it's not surprising Not to mention. I don't think many recruitment ad agencies that aren't a part of programmatic are gonna care because this is just gonna drive Up their revenues to. SFX (Sound Effects): 60% of the time it works. Every time. Joel: My take on this is we've seen this story before Part one was called career builder when Private equity moves in to any significant degree which it did with Indeed This is what happens. They take they sharpen the pencils. They they swear. We where are we wasting money? Where can we make more money? Where can we cut costs trim fat, etcetera. That's kind of what we're seeing Like, how do we make the most off pay-per-click? How do we cut out free stuff? How do we make more money on? Contacting vets as a veteran. I'm a little surprised that you don't care about that. But that's that's cool. That's your prerogative So it's like how do we make more money? How do we cut more costs? And this is what we're saying and mark my words Layoffs are coming layoffs are coming to Indeed at some point in a significant way And this is just the the the canary in the coal mine is all this sort of how do we milk as much profit. Joel: As We possibly can you know the challenge to me they just had an investor meeting I think they published online There's articles if you guys are interested, you know, they're there Indeed is so concerned about the transactional nature of job search like how do we make applying easier. How do we like the problem with job search? Isn't that it's too hard It's that it might be that it's too easy But the transactional nature of it is to me not a winning strategy for Indeed because Programmatic is gonna out transaction probably anything that Indeed does it needs to be more personal than transactional We both knock on LinkedIn a lot and I think fairly so on You know related jobs and jobs for you and things like that The one thing that Indeed gets early LinkedIn gets right is if you search for a job on LinkedIn it will show you who you know at the company. First degrees. I went to school with this person Maybe I'm second degree and they know somebody I know. Joel: Because if you if you learn anything from us kids It's not necessarily what you know It's who you know and the transactional nature of Indeed and other job sites like takes a lot of that personal stuff out of out of The equation LinkedIn secret sauce is the people that are on the site and I know it you don't engage with it But when people change jobs look for jobs, they're good. They go to LinkedIn So that network is powerful and it does help people get jobs So LinkedIn to me is we're just in a cost-cutting efficiency game at Indeed right now and Maybe an IPO is coming in the future when they maximize profits to echo your sentiment. It's more spaghetti at the wall It's more like fear They're driven by fear and what Google's doing what app cast is doing And so it's just more being unfocused. Maybe they are more focused but in the wrong places and We're gonna see more craziness from Indeed wait till the layoffs come though that will be fine. Chad: What I'm hearing is they should buy Polywork. Joel: They should buy Stepstone and then Stepstone should buy CareerBuilder. SFX (Sound Effects): Alright. Alright. Alright. Chad: Never going to happen. So one of the things that they actually said during their virtual investor update was the global HR matching market composed of job advertising and talent sourcing direct hire Retained search internal recruitment automation and temporary staffing pretty big is almost $330 billion, right the search engine opportunity only represents a portion of that about About 10% right coming in at just over $295 billion the global marketplace total addressable market Reflects from it the remaining 90% So the HR Matching market the thing that they're trying to go after and again I just don't see it because they don't have the technology unless they actually rebuild infrastructure They can't get it done. They're matching it shit They're they don't have a network to be able to lean on like like LinkedIn does right? Everything that they could have built and or acquired. By this time they just haven't right. Chad: In it Just it drives me crazy as you see a company with this much fucking money They have tried to go down the funnel and they've done a shitty job of it They had they have an interviewing platform that just fucking flopped right and they they've pretty much given up on it You can't you've got to double down and find out what the issues are and you've got to go down funnel I just these guys I don't know who the fuck is running the ship over there But I've said it and I'll say it again Chris Himes needs to fire himself. Joel: I Love that their new motto is simplify hiring and they own simply hired Like I don't know if that was planned or or what that is, you know in between you and I cabbage patching and doing the running man in between Cabo stance at the e-congress conference and Amsterdam there was a sentiment of like people won't search for jobs anymore jobs will find them and it seems that Indeed is in this sort of misdirection of reinventing what they do and I'm not sure they should it's smoke. Give me a box Let me put in some keywords Let me go to a site and apply like back to basics wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for this company They're not Google. They don't have the resources. Chad: It's not that hard to be able to screen upfront screen to ensure that people are Qualified before they actually go on to apply which means you can charge more for that click Because you know that they're a qualified Candidate, I mean just the basic shit They can't get the basic shit, right if you want to be able to build a model Build a model to be able to charge more for it. You have to provide more value You're not providing more value providing shitty matching makes no fucking sense. Joel: Because they're slaves. They're slaves to the clicks clicks is money, so let's to pay in this shit, let's I mean... Chad: Yes. Yeah, I get it. Joel: When you're it's like it's like the bloggers slavery, you know media company slave to clicks It's ridiculous. We need the clicks. So it's not about they would they always preach. It's about the user It's. Chad: They don't give two shits about the user. Yes. Joel: And you're and your bottom line. Chad: Exactly. Exactly. Joel: Anyway, all right. All right, let's move on fucking Indeed. Let's talk about The AI Wars man shits heating up. It's great. Mustafa Suleyman Co-founder of Google's DeepMind has been appointed as CEO of Microsoft's AI division overseeing consumer products like copilot bang and edge Microsoft is competing with open AI Google and other big tech companies in the AI race and this move Strengthens its strategy. Yeah poaching from Google. That'll do it. But wait, there's more Anthropics Claude three opus large language model has surpassed open a eyes GPT-4 on the chatbot arena leaderboard. That sounds like a party, that sounds like a party everybody's leaving Reddit for the for the chatbot arena leaderboard a popular crowdsource platform for AI research researchers this marks the first time a non open AI model has taken the top spot and Chad the information is reporting Mark Zuckerberg is personally mailing Google's DeepMind talent to join meta AI Without having to interview for the company. That's a lot of warrant Chad. What are your thoughts? Chad: I just think this is a great setup for our next, you know side of topics on the HR side, this is incredibly hot. We're going to see a Convergence of technology all of this technology that we're talking about now the big names the Google's the Microsoft's, you know, whether it's cloud It's it's DeepMind Gemini it doesn't matter all of this is coming to our space Period and everything there's going to be this amazing overlap So when we talk about this outside of the HR side of the house, it's because kids it's coming. Joel: Real quickly I want to add to that, you know, if you're the number of people that do this and know it and Can build stuff around it is a small number and they have they have a nice safety net called big tech So there's a ton of there's a ton of venture capitalists in the valley and probably elsewhere that says look Yeah, you could go to Microsoft. You could go wherever but let let me give you $50 million And you guys go build whatever the hell you want and then it's yours And if it fails, you can go work it deep wherever you want if it does fail So to your point a lot of people are gonna jump ship to big tech But a lot of people are gonna say, you know what I'm smart enough to run my own company Here's someone willing to write me a check. Joel: Let's let's rock, baby And yes, you're gonna see this in HR and every other, every other field, but let's talk about what we're seeing in our space Just this week alone Toronto-based borderless AI has emerged from stealth with get this $27 million in seed seed funding for Alberni. Alberni not the best name I don't know if they're from Alberta and through and I anyway, it's HR power It's AI powered HR assistant, which automates onboarding management and payment processes for international team members and can answer employment law finance and tax queries in 170 Languages, that's a few jobs. That's a few people that do those jobs at companies. What's more powered by NVIDIA, your boy? Hippocratic AI has raised $53 million in series A funding bringing its total to $120 million with a valuation of $500 million. Think digital nurses who can answer your colonoscopy questions pre and post surgery healthcare Everything HR AI is coming for everyone Chad. What are your thoughts? Chad: Yeah, so right out of the gate the Hippocratic Holy shit, dude. Did you watch the demo? There's an AI discharge nurse who's following up after a surgery and they actually tape a call, it's amazing and it's incredibly fluid the estimated cost of This nurse discharge nurse her name is Linda. That's around $9 an hour. So I mean again not cheap Although you've got to remember Linda can scale the bot Linda can scale where the human Linda can only do one call at a time, right? So this just makes a hell of a lot of sense plus you do you said the magic word NVIDIA? I mean that NVIDIA's in I'm in it. I was I was I was impressed. I was very impressed With just the demo that they had you take a look at borderless I mean what perfect timing to play off the successive deal and their latest acquisitions and reporting that they are enjoying 500 million in ARR are borderless touts That they do payroll benefits taxes compliance all that boring shit that nobody wants to do right? Chad: And they've got the AI Agents what you talked about? I think from from our standpoint Nursing is distressed. They need help. So therefore here comes AI On the HR side, there's so many bullshit administrative tasks. Here comes AI, right? I don't see it taking jobs as much as I see it taking tasks that take those humans away from what they need to be Doing and that's being more human and working with other humans and employees and so and patients and so on and so forth So to me this is all exciting this block just watching and listening and learning about What's happening in AI? What then watching some of those things start to bleed into our space? I say a year after year after year and it's still true This year is the most exciting year in this space ever period. Joel: Those are big words. Chad: It's just getting better. Joel: So so not only can Linda help me figure out what this bump on my ass is She can also tell me what my vacation PTO time is For this year. So the digital clones are coming for for every opportunity, you know, I think you know to your point, we've done two conferences this year already and The question are we are all of our jobs gone? Is it is it is a typical theme? At these conferences and It's to me. It's amusing how much Experts dance around the issue of no, we're not losing jobs or only people who don't know AI are losing their jobs or no, you just have to know AI to augment your Your job honestly, no one probably knows the answer. Joel: But I find it hard to understand where there's not a world where there are fewer People doing some of these jobs you just I don't think you'll need as many people Now you'll you'll have to have people that understand how to use this shit and do it Well, I don't think it's just gonna be a magic wand and all these things are done That's just unfortunately not the case for anything But the point is this shit's coming and we got more stories about this and next week We'll have more stories and the week after that. We'll have more stories. Podcast Intro: It's not going away. Joel: By the way Miso robotics the flippy Company, they got new. They're still rocking. We don't talk about them much, but they're still doing their thing My concern is that we'll lose listeners because if there are more recruiters And there are more vendors doing this like... Chad: I think I think we've got a few years before we have to start worrying about that. Joel: We've got a few years, which means our advertisers Still love us everybody. We're gonna take a quick break. Make sure you listen to the ads everybody because without ads There's no Chad. There's no cheese and there's no happiness. If There's no Chad and cheese. We'll be right back. Let's talk immigration Chad, I don't know if you've watched any of the the news channels on your on your TV set but Immigration is kind of a big big story not only here but around the world. Chad: It's so scary. Joel: Yeah, so Wall Street Journal story recently kind of clarified that it's maybe not awful the story says despite Despite the debate around the merits of the current levels of immigration Economists at major firms on Wall Street argue it has been a major Boon for the economy and added trillions of dollars to US Gross domestic product the benefits of this influx have not escaped the attention of policymakers Such as Federal Reserve Chairman Jay Powell who say in who say migration has boosted employment Fueled consumer spending and eased post-pandemic labor Shortages my God, Chad. Let's all get off the ledge for a second. What are your thoughts? Chad: I think balance is key There's no question, but we've got to ask ourselves These questions does productivity stall When vital roles aren't fill, of course, they are productivity plummets Will roads pave themselves no will packages deliver themselves. No not today. Joel: Will bridges rebuild themselves. Chad: Not today, right? We can't keep pace and drive an economy if our infrastructure is worn and our products are not being created delivered and serviced And that's a problem, right? So you're talking about you know, your friend. What what should they do? They should look for the gaps Immigrants are filling the gaps in our workforce economy by filling positions and driving productivity also in Some cases immigrants are performing jobs that Americans just won't do But we need to get them done. They have to be done. So they are filling the gaps last but most importantly This is a more on a somber note. But immigrants are performing dangerous jobs like working construction on the Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore where the latest report notes all the construction workers killed When a container ship struck the bridge and it fell they were all immigrants so as we Want to build a wall and we want to vilify and we want to talk about murders and rapists and a lot of other stuff We have to remember there's a balance there. And yes, we do have to do something about immigration It can't be a free flow. That's very hard. But what we need to do is we need to understand There is a need from our standpoint and they're filling those gaps and they're driving the economy And they're probably making half that of what American would make in that in that position. Joel: Fill the gap. Chad, fill the gap. Chad: I'm all about it. SFX (Sound Effects): What are you Doing step bro? Joel: I enjoy flipping from Fox to MSNBC and and the perspective on the, the, the border. Chad: Yeah. Joel: On each is very, very different. Chad: Oh, God, yes. Joel: I don't disagree that there's some issues at the border. There's some people coming on, like, I think there's a concerted effort to like, fuck shit up. The fentanyl thing is real. Those drugs coming into the, like, that's a thing. But the bigger picture is, America needs people. I know you like to talk about the world needs less people. And that's, that's fine. If productivity, if productivity. Chad: The earth would love us so much more. Joel: Here or there. We have systems in place that rely on more people at the bottom of the pyramid than there are at the top of the pyramid. And that's becoming inverted, depending on what country you're in. And that creates some real problems. We need people to make shit. We need people to buy shit. We need people to support the things that we do in this country. And if we're not having babies the way that we used to, those people need to come from somewhere. Frankly, as American, we should be pretty happy that we're a place that people want to come. 'Cause there are a lot of places in the world that people do not want to migrate. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They do not want to go. Like, America is still a place where the perception is, if I work hard, I obey the law. I will have a better life and my children will have a better life. And we will, you know, we will, be, be citizens that are a plus instead of a minus on society. And that is still the majority of people that are walking through war zones and, fighting famine and disease and full families coming to this country because they think there's a better life here. And in many cases that there is. So let's stop vilifying immigration. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yes. There are problems to fix. Chad: Yeah. Joel: There are gaps to fill, as you say. But this is gonna, this is the number one issue in our country. This will be the, the presidential, election. If it were held today, this would be the number one issue, on the ballot. And I think that vilifying it has been horrible. By and large, these are really good people that are struggling, that wanna come to this country, make, be productive and be a plus on it. And, we need to stop focusing on the five or whatever percent that wanna, like, burn the whole place down. Amen. Chad: Amen. Amen. The question is next. Will cars build themselves? Go ahead. Joel: Will, cars build themselves. Yes. Let's go back to bots killing all of us. So back in January, reports surface that BMW's South Carolina plant would be testing robot workers. Fast forward to today, and it looks like those rumors are true. We're seeing TikToks and other social media, pundits show videos of a robot that looks is, has arms and legs like a human. It, it interacts with a human being who says, I'm hungry. What would you give me? And there's an apple on the table. So the robot knows Apple. Give to the table. It puts, it, it, it'll put dishes in racks. It will, like, it sort of is, I don't, I mean, I don't wanna say it's like, it kind of knows. It can kind of process this stuff. And BMW is putting this stuff, putting these robots in its factories. Chad: Yeah. Joel: To build cars. Your thoughts on the impending robotic, takeover, Chad? Chad: Yeah. My cousin works in that plant. So... Joel: South Carolina? Chad: Yeah. He works in that plant. He's worked, yeah, he's worked there for well over a decade, probably two decades. And I asked him, I'm like, are you worried about this? He's like, hell no. We can't find people in the first place. So, you know, it's, again, it's the, it's the immigration, it's the balance. It's, it's all of this. And, and as we start to take a look at, some companies who are, you know, paying immigrants underneath the table, which means no taxes, right? Then we have AI and robots taking jobs. What about the taxes there? We're going to have to restructure how we deal with the border, how we deal with taxes, what jobs actually look like. Are they remote? Are they hybrid? Are they this? Are they that? We have a lot of work to do and we... I don't think it's, it's, it's smart and or safe for us to hope that politicians make the right decisions there. Right? I think as experts in this space, we need to definitely have these conversations. We need to have more of these conversations, to ensure that, you know, dumb decisions aren't made moving forward. Right? They need to have the adults in the room. Joel: I couldn't help but watch and wonder how long it'll be before an affordable robot is on the market that can clean my toilets, on a regular, ongoing basis. But that's just me. Chad: Talking about Christine giving you an ultimatum of, of why leaving you, you gotta clean your own toilet. Joel: Let's not talk about what Christine is giving me or not giving me Chad. So, so part of me wants to temper, my fear slash enthusiasm for this stuff. I mean, we, we've been talking about self-driving cars for over a decade. It doesn't seem like they're gonna be on the market anytime soon. Chad: Elon's still pushing. Joel: Google. Google is. Google's creating, pictures of black Nazis, on their AI, stuff. So a lot of, there's a lot of work left to be done. But then, but then I think about, the famous Earnest Hemingway quote when they asked him, how he went bankrupt, his comment was two ways slowly and then all of a sudden. So I feel like. This this... Like this thing keeps building. It's flipping burgers. It's making tacos. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's, you're making cars. It, one of, one of these days we're gonna, we're gonna look up and it's, this stuff is gonna happen quickly because it's past all the regulation stuff or, it's finally hit a tipping point of evolution and the robots are gonna be here. I don't know when, but at some point it's gonna happen quickly and we're gonna look up and go, holy shit. Robots are everywhere. They're doing a lot of stuff. My only concern is the speed at which this is gonna happen. Human beings aren't built, to scale like this. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You know, when the, when the car was introduced, it took decades, before the car like fully became the car. Right? People had some time to adjust. I think UBI has to be on the table at some point. People that are displaced, they're gonna have to have some sort of a, a welfare upskilling, educ like educational resources. We're gonna have to really rethink how we're training our people and taking care of our people. But if this is gonna happen, it's just a matter of when. And, get yourself ready. Get yourself on LinkedIn learning and get them badges, people 'cause you're... You're gonna have to have some, some new skills or learn to podcast or some shit. Something that... Chad: Continuous learning. Joel: Doesn't take. Something that doesn't take a lot of, a lot of intelligence. Just become a, become a podcaster. All right. Chad, I know you've been missing some OnlyFans news. Chad: Dude, I was at the Red Light District. I was not missing OnlyFans. Joel: Florida Keeps Florida-ing. Chad: Yes. Joel: I made that one up. A controversy at Liberty Christian Preparatory School in Orlando has led to the expulsion of nine students over a sticker on mom's car promoting her OnlyFans account. Did I just read that? Oh my God. All right. My kids are gonna listen to these shows when I'm dead. Chad: Yeah. Joel: All right. The mother, Michelle Klein was asked to park off campus due to the sticker, and the situation escalated when another mother complained about it on TikTok. Yeah. The, the, you know, the subtle, like face-to-face complaint wasn't enough. She had to take it to TikTok. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: So both mothers, both mothers children were expelled. Oh, that's nice. The parents fight and the kids get in trouble. And, and they were given conditions for their children to be re-enrolled. The children have since been homeschooled, and I'm sure they're getting a top flight education from their mothers. Chad: Especially in Florida. Joel: Chad, what is the world coming to? Chad: Yeah. I just have to figure out you... What Mobile home park these guys are out of? This is, I mean, it's, it's Florida. I mean, they're full of them. Liberty, is it a high school. Joel: Liberty Christian Prepa... You can't write this shit. Chad: I just. Joel: This is a Netflix comedy waiting to happen. Chad: It's just the crossover of all of this shit, you know. It's like, I wanna send my kid to a good school. This one happens to be a Catholic school, a Christian school, whatever it is. Right? And then, but you know, on my time off, I've got little OnlyFans happening. Joel: Hey those private schools aren't cheap. You gotta you gotta find the money somehow. Chad: You gotta do something, right? So yeah, it's, it is, it is interesting. It is very, very interesting and funny. That's what I like. SFX (Sound Effects): Hasn't anyone told us this. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: So, so we're on a podcast, you can't see it, but the, the sticker, it looks like a home. Like she bought it on some online service. It covers the entire back window. This isn't like a bumper sticker with my OnlyFans URL. She bought like a billboard sized only OnlyFans site. And she's driving around With children, apparently, promoting her, her site. So, so there you go. OnlyFans you know, we talked about it, a while back. They had a, they brought a new CEO. They wanted to go legit. They wanted people like, normal sort of, online, celebrities to get on and, and make money through, subscriptions or whatever. I think going legit is out the door for OnlyFans. And part of their, only part of their going legit thing was like, we need to go public at some point and make a ton of money, which they would based on their, based on their, if you're watching on YouTube, Chad has pulled up the car, literally a Dodge Caravan. OnlyFans. Chad: Piper Fawn. Joel: Piper Fawn. Chad: It has like racing stripes. I mean, it's, yeah. I, this thing lives in a, in a mobile home park somewhere. Joel: Landing, landing strips, racing stripes, whatever. Take your pick, they can kiss, they can kiss the public markets goodbye. Unless of course, they get, they get Trump involved and he joins OnlyFans, and then they, they they get a spac and, and go public that way their, their ticker symbol could be DT, BJ, you know what I'm saying? Donald Trump, BJ. All right. That's, we out. We out. Chad: We out. Podcast Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads. Instead, now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

In this episode of Talent Acquisition Week 2024, Liz Owens, the Talent Acquisition Manager at West Coast Fitness, joins Chad & Cheese for a laid-back therapy session. Liz delves into the intricacies of hiring for a renowned brand within the profitable fitness sector, discusses the challenges of collaborating with HR technology providers, and educates Joel on why the phrase "Fitness pizza in my mouth" isn't an accurate application of the word 'fitness' in the workplace. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It is Lady Gaga's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, Joined as always, the Garth to my Wayne, Chad Sowash is in the house, and we are here with Liz Owens. Don't call her Elizabeth. She's the manager of talent acquisition at West Coast Fitness. And if someone knows fitness as much as me, it might be you, but I know so much Liz. In fact... Chad: No, you're about fittin' this pizza in your mouth. Joel: I curled about two in and out burgers last night. At least 10 reps of 20. Liz Owens: Wow. Just two. Yeah. Come on, Cheese. Give me more. Joel: Well, a couple of fries, animal style. Yeah. Chad: Again. Joel: Don't test my endurance on the fast food circle. Liz Owens: Well, I bow down to the king of fittin' this burger into my mouth. Chad: The only way he uses fitness in a sentence is I'm fittin' this burger in my mouth. Joel: Fittin' this burger in my mouth. So a lot of our listeners, maybe all of them don't know who you are. Give us a Twitter bio about you. Liz Owens: Likely they do not. A quick bio on me. I've been working with West Coast Fitness, which is a large ownership group of Orangetheory Fitness for four years. Orangetheory for five. I actually started with Orangetheory, working in management for them out in Australia when I lived out there for several years. Big global brand. So I can kind of move all over and landed back in Los Angeles where I was born and raised and got connected with West Coast Fitness. Moved my way around from sales and ops in management in studio to pre-sales. Then I got hooked into the HR team, and now I am the manager of Talent Acquisitions. Chad: Hello. Liz Owens: There it is. Chad: So you got stuck with the manager of TA position? [laughter] Liz Owens: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a... Joel: So you have a drama degree from NYU and you've ended up in TA. Liz Owens: Yes. Joel: How does that make you feel? Liz Owens: Well, back in NYU, TA meant a little different thing for us. [laughter] So I mean, I'm glad to... Joel: Is that T and A or just TA. Liz Owens: Exactly. Okay. I'm glad to have moved away from that area of expertise 'cause I felt like I was selling that a little bit too much. Joel: Wow. Chad: It's a thing. Liz Owens: It is a thing. Yeah. But it actually, if you think about it, acting, psychology, sales moved into restaurant work, performing, selling stuff. Chad: You were destined to be here, is what you're saying. Liz Owens: I was. Now here I am. Joel: So we're recording this at the end of January. And even I know that January is a huge month for the fitness industry. Talk a little bit about the complexities of staffing up for the holiday rush. Chad: Oh God. Yeah. Joel: What works best for recruiting? Are there professions that you pull from to be in the industry? Talk about the challenges of January in the fitness industry. Liz Owens: Well, I will say, not to brush myself off a little bit here, but bringing people on for fitness who are energetic, who are personalities and whether that's in the studio coaching the class or it's the front desk staff or even management moving into that. People with my kind of background who are performers, particularly in LA where we're based, we're gonna find a lot of energy and personality with them. Chad: Ah, so it's easier in LA. Liz Owens: Charisma. It is a little easier in LA. Joel: But a lot of competition too. Liz Owens: A lot of competition. I definitely made a lot of money in restaurants versus an hourly kind of like front desk job, I'm not gonna lie. But a lot of people get hooked on the product and then they wanna be coaches and then they become personalities and famous in their own right, in their own little communities. And then they end up being lifelong coaches as their career. So it's a thing. Joel: Competitive pay, benefits. Like what can I expect as a fitness professional? Liz Owens: Absolutely. So as a fitness professional with us, you would be looking at a nice competitive hourly wage. You're clocking in and out for all of your classes as well as a very well tiered pay system according to how many people are in your class. So if you are great at marketing yourself to the community, to outside communities, bringing new people in, you're gonna see that payout tenfold by having your classes sell out. And then you're gonna be making about a hundred dollars a class. So it's a nice little pay. Chad: So how's that different in Q1 versus Q2? 'cause you've got that big surge in Q1, right? Joel: Or Q4. [laughter] Chad: And then they start to kind of dwindle out. Liz Owens: Yeah. Well, I will say January, 2024 has been our best month for the last few years as we've been getting ourselves back out of the COVID era. Especially in California, it's been very tough. So nearly every one of our studios is hitting their goals this month and it'll be amazing to carry out into throughout Q1 into Q2. We are seeing a bit of a drop off in terms of our seasonal employees, of course. 'cause a lot of our people are in college, so they're still working and in school. So what they are doing is, they're leaving us after the winter months, are getting back into their university programs. We'll probably see them come back in the summer. So it's all about just maintaining efficiencies throughout the studio and keeping on top of backfilling those roles, knowing when they're coming up, making sure that we are communicating with our teams and our hiring managers so that we don't fall behind. Chad: So do you have boomerangs people who have been coaches and they kind of went out and they might still be a part of Orangetheory or what have you, right? But do you have the boomerangs? Joel: That sitcom pilot didn't get picked up, so now I'm back at the fitness industry. Does that happen? Liz Owens: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Yes, that does happen a lot actually. So we have a ton of people who leave for a little while whether they're going to pursue their own private PT types of things. Or they have other interests or they're in school again, they're coming, they'll go off and complete a degree, then they end up coming back either part-time 'cause they miss it. But when people are coaches, they become passionate about it. You don't just get a special certification and go through the process to get hired with us. We have a pretty rigorous training program to get in and become a coach with us because our standards are very high and you don't go through all of those things to just have it be a side job. Most of the time people are really passionate about it. They want to be doing it. They wanna be helping people. And it's a really great industry to work in because you get to watch people reach their goals every day. Chad: So let's get into the fun stuff. What's your tech stack look like? [chuckle] Liz Owens: Oh. Let me loosen up a little bit. Chad: 'Cause talent acquisition, you gotta go get them. So you need the acquisition part, right? So the postings and all that other stuff. Joel: She's got a lot of problems with you people. Chad: All the way through. Liz Owens: Oh, I don't know if we've got time for all of my... Chad: Oh, come on. Come on. This is the place right here. Liz Owens: All right guys. Do I need to pay you for therapy as well? 'cause this is what it has been turned into. Joel: We'll get to the end of this and let you know. Chad: Yeah, we'll send you an invoice. Liz Owens: You'll be sending me an a bill. Okay. Perfect. Chad: That's okay. Liz Owens: Great. Well, I've got Anthem, so hopefully they'll cover me for that. Joel: We usually work for bourbon, just so you know. Liz Owens: Oh, excellent. All right. I kind of think I can scroll a bit. Joel: Okay, good. Liz Owens: Alright. So we have been working with a company for our HRIS for several years now. We're not set up for success. I will say, just to play devil's advocate, we've been working with Paycom and we are moving systems in the next very short amount of time. Paycom does not know this, so hopefully this does not go live before we make that move. Joel: We're huge with the Paycom folks. Liz Owens: You know, if you are then... Joel: Hugely popular. Liz Owens: I would probably readjust your... Chad: Yes. Chad Richardson listens to us all the time. CEO of Paycom. Liz Owens: I love it. Well, if Barbara Corcoran's listening, look, bitch, I got a few complaints for you, so you might wanna step out that investment. Joel: Not the shark Tank lady. Liz Owens: Oh yeah. That Q-tip. Chad: Barbara. Liz Owens: I'm upset. I'm upset with her. Joel: She's all on the ads, isn't she? Liz Owens: A 100%. Every time a commercial comes on, I change the channel. I can't do it. To play devil's advocate, the system probably works well for smaller companies. And when we started with them back in like 2017 or '18, we were probably under 200 employees and we grew exponentially in the years prior to COVID and in COVID. So we went from 200 to 750 in a matter of probably a year and a half. And the system just wasn't set up for that. And no, we didn't have the team and agility to be able to make those adaptations when it happened. So COVID shut down. We had just doubled in size and when we came back online, no one took that into consideration for the HRIS. So it really, really was at a, we were at a detriment for that for a while to the point now where we can't really function in that system and we had to just move on. Chad: Woo. It sounds like a cautionary growth tale. Liz Owens: Yes. Yes. Chad: Is what it sounds like. If you grow too fast and you don't have the infrastructure to be able to take care of that growth. Liz Owens: Absolutely. Chad: AKA Paycom. So did you have conversations with them around trying to build infrastructure that would support you guys? Or you say, screw it, it's not even worth it. We're getting the hell outta here. Liz Owens: I mean look, ever since I took the role in TA, I have been looking for other systems that can help us, their backend, their communication with their teams and their reps hasn't been fantastic. And they don't play nicely with others. So anytime we found a system that could help, where I'm like, Hey, I found this ATS that gives us these features, can we integrate? They go, no, you'd have to get approval. And I'm like, okay, well what about this required ATS that we have to use working with Orangetheory? We are required to use Career Plug to get hooked into their corporate careers page. And they won't integrate. So I have to use two different systems to get all of my candidates through, and then they're having to reapply to get into Paycom where we can onboard them. It is a nightmare. Chad: So you're scraping jobs off of your system to push into another system. And then the candidate hopefully seamlessly goes into the other system. Liz Owens: Hopefully, and that's a big hopefully. Chad: Hopefully. Oh yeah, that's a bitch. Liz Owens: Absolutely. 100%. Joel: What's the fix? How did you huddle up and like tackle this? Liz Owens: Well, I did a lot of research. I found several companies that we could kind of look at and demo and talk through. We also have a very complicated payroll system. So that was obviously our priority when we're moving systems, we can't just take the ATS into consideration. We have to make sure that the whole thing is gonna run well for us. Chad: People need paid. Liz Owens: They really do. Chad: They need paid. Liz Owens: Look, I know we lost our payroll manager several months ago and I actually stepped up with the rest of my, like four people on our HR team and we are running payroll now. We're killing it. We are killing it. But we just got a payroll manager and she's being trained. But we're moving to Paycom which will integrate a lot of other systems. It will help automate a lot of our inefficiencies right now and get us back on track. Joel: How easy was the move? Was it sort of a click and move all the data over? Or was it a manual process. Liz Owens: TBD, we go live tomorrow, so we're gonna see. Chad: Okay. Yeah. You're good then. Liz Owens: We're good. It's no stress. I'm here with you guys clearly I'm fine. Joel: Stress free with Chad and Cheese. Any other vendors that you want to vent about here at the Chad Cheese therapy session? Liz Owens: Oh man, that's tough. Pain Cor has really been our big one. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Pain Cor. Joel: I'm getting that. Chad: Feeling the pain. Liz Owens: It's been the major one. Joel: Or some that you really enjoy. I mean what are some vendors and solutions that you're using to recruit, that you wanna highlight? Liz Owens: Okay. Okay. Well, the team at Career Plug has been really helpful. Chad: Career plug. Okay. Liz Owens: Career plug. The plug, I've got a plug, career plug. Chad: Gotcha. Joel: Not the kind of plug you're thinking about, Chad. Liz Owens: No, TNA plugs. You guys are on it. I love it. Chad: Wrong show Cheesman. Liz Owens: You're my kind of guys, so don't tell my husband. So I would say, I mean, Paycor team's been amazing in our transition. I really enjoyed looking at I wanna say Ripple back in the day. Chad: RippleMatch. Liz Owens: Not RippleMatch. Chad: Or just Ripple? Okay. Liz Owens: Ripple. I'm forgetting, but... Joel: They clearly made an impact. [laughter] Liz Owens: They did at the time. You know what, you're kind of catching me off guard here with your questions, but Career Plug, their team's been really wonderful. Even though it doesn't always do the things I need it to. They're always responsive, they're always helpful. They jump on onto phone calls with me. And honestly meeting the vendors here they've all been really incredible. Joel: What are your biggest challenges in recruiting? Liz Owens: Biggest challenge right now, we do own 19 studios in the Bay, and recruiting coaches up there has been the biggest challenge, I would say. It is a very, very hard industry there because the cost of living is so high. So coaches are coming in at this part-time where we talked about, hey, like, people do this as a side gig. That's where they do it. They have to have full-time jobs. They work in tech, they work in other industries. Where they can actually make, make the cheese, bring home the cheddar. And then they do this as a passion project and they say, look, I can't make this work full-time. And then we've got holes to fill, we've got gaps in our schedules, we've got people moving, coming and going, because they just can't pay the bills. And that's it. Chad: So you had a line of thinking that I think, he rudely interrupted. Liz Owens: That's okay. Chad: We're here at, TA week and there are plenty of vendors that are here. How many shows do you go to generally a year? And do you get a chance to really dig into the tech nowadays to really understand what the hell a stack looks like? Liz Owens: Well, this is my first rodeo for a conference like this. Chad: Hello. Liz Owens: And I'm really stoked. I didn't really think that the vendors would be as helpful for me because, our budget is so limited. Like, I have to use the manpower where I can. And we're just moving into a new HRIS where a lot of our new budget is going, and figuring that out, but understanding how all of these, especially new AI techs can help automate and fully integrate now into a system that allows that, can really help to loosen up some of the reigns that we have on our people to go and perform other tasks rather than focusing on these minute details of a phone screen process and the sourcing and all of those things. So it's pretty cool. Chad: Yeah. Without coaches, you don't have what? You don't have revenue. So therefore... Liz Owens: They are our product. Chad: Yeah. So therefore the CEO has to understand, Hey, unless I get this great stack in place that helps alleviate a lot of this bullshit that we're dealing with right now, I can't get you the people that you need to be able to make the money that we need to. We're having a great month. Let's go ahead and spend some money. Liz Owens: Absolutely. I love that. And when they're having a good month, my CFO is much, much easier to talk to I'll tell you that. Chad: Oh, I bet. Oh I bet. Joel: So walk me through, you get an opening a rec, what action items are there? Do you post the job? Do you go source? How do you find those people? Liz Owens: So our studio managers act as their own hiring managers through the entire process. Unless they get so slammed that they need to call up on myself or my specialist to come and help with phone screens. But we get those recs open for them. We post to all of the free job boards that are associated with Career Plug and Paycom, to get those moving if they are in a particularly, slow area, like a region that doesn't have a lot of pull from just a free post, we're getting sponsorship on there just to kind of pull in some leads. But for the most part, we're looking for entry level positions. We're looking for customer service and front desk people. The coaches, of course, we do have very high standards, as I said. So we're looking for particular certifications. We're looking for experience in group fitness. And so our hiring managers are taking a look at the candidates that come through. They're doing some phone screens or bringing them in for a class. Chad: Yeah. Liz Owens: Because if you don't get Orangetheory, if you don't understand, if you don't care about it, if you don't feel like you wanna be there and, and do the workout, then you're not gonna wanna sell it. You're not gonna wanna be there every day. Chad: I would assume that that would actually, I mean, you can grow your own at that point, right? Because you have all these people who are doing Orangetheory, they're into it. They're almost cultish in some kind of way. Liz Owens: A hundred percent. Chad: So that's a great talent pipeline for you guys to actually start pulling the ones that you see... Liz Owens: Absolutely. Chad: Who've been there. So how much of your hiring actually happens through that talent pipeline versus having to go out to the market? Liz Owens: I would say about half. We have a great referral program. So first thing is our current staff can go out and bring their friends, but also our members are our biggest advocates. They are so loyal. They love the brand. They wanna be there. Plus you get a free membership. So I mean, that helps them out, right? If they're coming over. A lot of our members, because they're older with families, they're sending their kids over. So there's 17 and 18-year-olds who are like, I'm going to school, or I've got after school, whatever. They're like, get a job, go work at Orangetheory. So that's great. And then what we have is our front desk, they end up loving the product. They're young. They don't really know what they wanna do. So they're like, Hey, I'm gonna get my certification to become a coach. And they end up being the best possible people to be running our classes because they love it. They wanna be there every day and the members know them already. So it's a win-win. Joel: You have a pretty, impressive, resume in the food service industry. Liz Owens: Thank you. Joel: Including a stint at the Beverly Hills Hotel and Nobu. Liz Owens: Yes. Joel: So first off, who's the most famous person that you waited on? Chad: Axel Foley. Of course. Joel: Secondarily, California in particular, we're seeing minimum wage rise in the service industry. I'm assuming you have at least some opinion on what's going on in California, whether right or wrong. So give me the best person you've waited on. And then what are your opinions on the rising minimum wage in the food service industry in California and the impact. Liz Owens: Sure thing. Okay. The best person I've waited on probably was Shaq, took care of him and his family on Christmas. Chad: Wow. Joel: How much food does he put down? Liz Owens: It was a lot of food. And his kids are not shy either. It was like 10 people. It was just constant chicken fingers and fries. Chad: Oh, yes. Liz Owens: Coming to the table. But he is so kind and so gentle. Chad: No cobb salad for Shaq, is that what you're saying? Liz Owens: I don't think he was having a McCarthy at the time. Yeah... But he is lovely. Bob Saget was also amazing. Chad: Oh, really? Liz Owens: Yes. And it was super cool to help him out. He liked to smoke a secret cigar on the patio that was not necessarily legal. But we hook it up for Bob Saget, God bless him, but... Chad: It's all good now. Liz Owens: Yeah. Exactly. Not a problem anymore sadly. Anywho, so to move on to your minimum wage question, I know that as in the food service industry in California, they're making a lot of money. And that is super nice. Like to the point where I'm like, damn, TA is not even, it was like, I should be going back to the Beverly Hills Hotel. Like, that's crazy because you are required to pay minimum wage. And it's very high, especially in LA, while you're also making tips at these high end restaurants. So it is a very nice industry where you're making a nice six figures, and you're able to maintain your life. Joel: Imagine that. Liz Owens: I know, a miracle. Chad: So what's the, what's the percentage that you would say that are Beverly Hills versus the rest of the state. Joel: Versus Taco Bell. Joel: Yeah. It feels kinda like shining star, it's like, oh yeah, they can make a hundred thousand plus dollars. Not a problem. What about the guy who's not in Beverly Hill? Liz Owens: Look, I lived in Australia where the minimum wage is much higher. And very livable. So as a front desk associate at Orangetheory you were making, and this was 2019, you were making $23-24 an hour. You get paid more on the weekends, you get paid more on holidays. Like a Saturday is a lower rate than Sunday even. So you're able to make a wage. Here it's significantly less. The cost of living is really high. I wish that people could get paid more everywhere. If I could make that change, I would. And the fact that it's so high in California and so low in other states, I mean obviously it's all relative, but it's not fair for anyone. No one has one job anymore. You can't do it. Except if you're working at Beverly Hills Hotel. Chad: I think the Paycom CEO he's worth like 1.7 billion. He should pay his people more. And then maybe you might get the service that you would need. Then they could have retained a client. Liz Owens: Well, I got the skinny because one of our reps from Paycor actually used to work for Paycom and apparently this guy is a little Looney Tunes because he hires people to be his reps. He refuses to hire anyone who has experience working with another HRIS for exclusivity reasons. But then you talk to these reps and they know nothing. They know nothing about HR. They know nothing about the systems they're talking about. And they barely know Paycom because they were probably receiving horrible training that has nothing to do with anything. Chad: And it's amazing 'cause a lot of these technologies we're seeing are getting new CEOs who have no experience in this space. Liz Owens: Delightful. Joel: That is Liz Owens everybody. Liz, for anyone out there listening that wants to connect with you or learn more about West Coast Fitness, where do you send them? Liz Owens: Go To LinkedIn under Liz Owens, manager of Talent Acquisitions for West Coast Fitness. Follow West Coast Fitness as well. I'm also on Instagram as @lizin_life. Play on words there. So thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate it. Joel: I like it. Lunch is coming up. Hopefully they'll have Shaqaroni Pizzas from Papa John's if we're lucky. Another one in the can. Chad, we out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast, the Chad The Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one, cheddar, blue nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

In this riveting episode of HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman take the stage at Transform in Las Vegas, Nevada, alongside a distinguished panel of HR leaders. Carolyn Frey from Hungry Root, Jessica Swank from Box, and Joey Lee from Panda share their unfiltered insights on a broad range of pressing HR topics. From leveraging AI in talent acquisition and management to navigating the complexities of remote work, this episode is packed with thought-provoking discussions. The panelists delve into how their organizations are pushing the envelope in HR technology, addressing talent shortages, and fostering diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in today's evolving workplace. Tune in for an enlightening conversation that punches the recruiting industry right where it hurts, all while offering loads of snark and invaluable perspectives on HR's future. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Chad: Hello, listener. On March 12th, Joel and I were in Las Vegas, Nevada for Transform, where we got on stage with Carolyn Frey, chief People Officer over at Hungry Root. Jessica Swank, chief People Officer at Box, and Joey Lee, head of talent acquisition at Panda. They joined Joel and myself on stage for an unfiltered discussion, which spanned several, several topics that were important to them. Enjoy. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the Doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, Yeah. What's up everybody? It's Carrot Top's Favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast? Chad: Let's spit my beer out. Joel: My name is Joel Cheesman. We got a rookie up here. Now you all know what I have to deal with. Anyway, I am your co-host, Joel Cheeseman joined as always, The mind to my freak, Chad Sowash is in the house. Somebody get him a sippy cup, please. Chad: Sippy cup. I'll take it. Joel: And we are excited to welcome Carolyn Frey. Raise your hand so we all know who you are. Chief People Officer at Hungry Root. Jessica Swank, chief People Officer at Box. And Joey Lee rounding up the starting four at Panda, also known as Panda Express and Panda inn. Correct. So there may be a coupon code for. Chad: All the pandas. Joel: For egg rolls later. Chad: Check Underneath your seat. Check under underneath your seat. That might be There. Joel: Everyone stick around. Chad: Discount code underneath your seat. Possibly. It might not be. I don't know. Joel: Alright. Alright guys, we, know your title and where you work. Some of the audience here doesn't know what the company does. Give us a quick Twitter explanation about what your companies do. Carolyn Frey: Okay. I work for Hungry Root. We're a personalized online grocery subscription service. Super cool. You should check it out. There's a coupon code in everyone's bag. I think it's HRT40. AI driven. You fill out an assessment of you and your household preferences, any allergies, dietary restrictions, and then we prefill your grocery cart with a meal component. So you have your recipes and groceries for, the week. It's amazing and healthy, healthy eating forward. So making healthy, eating easy is our mission. Jessica Swank: We'll keep trying. Okay. Persistence. Jess Swank. Great to see everybody. So I'm at Box, which is Content Cloud. So all the data that you have out there, we help you manage it in a secure way. Collaboration is at the heart of what we do, very much a SaaS company. So a little bit different than a Hungry Root, but very similar to, Joey. Joey Lee: Hey, Joey Lee, head of talent acquisition at Panda, a restaurant group. Been with Panda for about five weeks now. It's for like five years. Yeah, I'm pretty sure you guys all know about Panda with 30,000, employees deep. We're global now. And our focus to be the world leader in people development, that's one of the main reasons why I actually joined. So I'm super stoked, excited to be here. Chad: Excited until you start this. Here we go. Here we go. Okay. Jessica, first one for you. We've been hearing a lot about this whole AI thing. Quick question. Bullshit or not. Jessica Swank: Definitely Not. Chad: Or for HR? For, talent acquisition in HR. Bullshit or not. Jessica Swank: Definitely, or not. So I would say AI is here. It is the wave. It is gonna change so much of what we do, not only within businesses, but I think especially within our people, within our communities. Everything from how we hire to how we think about learning to how we think about, you know, assessing and understanding, everything from benefits and first line, how we deal with it. So I think it's gonna be a game changer and I could not be more excited. Chad: Are you using it? That's the question. Jessica Swank: Are. We are using it in so many different ways. So one, so Box, a short plug, we have our own Box AI that we actually just went out to market. And so all of the data that we have within Box, we actually then can go and query. So it's safe, it's secure. So we look at it from recruiting. So we're using it in our job descriptions. We actually are, we're in our middle of our performance management cycle and we are using it actually in writing reviews. And we did even training for our managers on how to use it in a safe way. Now, it's not gonna do it end to end, but we can really think about where and how do we best leverage it. So I think end to end, we're using it. And we're just at the start. Chad: Joey, it's gotta be different at Panda. Joey Lee: Oh gosh. AI. Chad: Are you using it? Joey Lee: Yes, absolutely. Chad: At the Panda AI. Joey Lee: Yeah. We have a virtual, a panda that walks around. No. But, in terms of AI itself, I mean, it's a game changer. And AI's been here forever. You think about Siris, you think about Alexa, you think about when you jump into your car and it knows your routes every morning at 5:00 AM. It's crazy. In terms of how Panda is currently using it, when I joined Panda about five weeks ago, they did not have, a recruiting process. So basically I leveraged AI to generate a recruiting playbook, interview guides, pretty much a recruiting workflow within two weeks. So it has expedited our process. I understand, I totally understand how AI is. It's not gonna take over the world. It's just there to support you, be your guide. Plus I actually leverage, AI at home with my 11-year-old daughter. So she comes up to me and she asks help to help with her math homework, right? So I tell her, Hey, you know what? Go on ChatGPT, put that information in. If they can't answer it, come back to me. And 100% of the time she gets the answer. So it's been crazy. Joel: By the way, the Panda Express recommendation engine always gets my order just right. Always just right. Chad: Always. Carolyn? Carolyn Frey: Yes. Oh, AI. Chad: Welcome to the show. Carolyn Frey: I know, I'm super giggly right now. Well, we're a company built on AI, so yes. AI, not bullshit. And, I'd say I run custom. Chad: So you're a company built on AI. Explain that first. Carolyn Frey: Okay. Which part? Chad: A Company that's built on AI. Carolyn Frey: Okay. Well, our algorithm is, well, it incorporates machine learning in something called Operations research, which has like hard and soft constraints. A hard constraint would be like, I'm allergic to garlic, or I'm allergic to onions, or I am, I don't eat dairy where a soft constraint is like, I don't like tomatoes. So that's kind of one component that's been implemented and now we're putting in machine learning so that it's pretty predictive. So it's like, Hey, Chad and Cheese, you love these four ginger shots on every four weeks. We're gonna pre-fill your grocery cart with that. Chad: Every four weeks. Okay. Carolyn Frey: Or whatever your preferences are. Chad: Okay. So beyond. Carolyn Frey: Or your in and out order. Joel: I Love a good ginger shot, Chad I Love a good ginger order. Chad: Where's Tim Sackett? Everybody calls him a ginger shot. So that was good, right? That was good. That was good. So talk about the talent acquisition side of the house. How are you using it there? Obviously your, business is built on it. So how, are you using it there? Carolyn Frey: I mean, from the beginning we've used it for job descriptions, job postings, but we've implemented a solution, BrightHire just to do a plug for them here. That is amazing. So helpful. Do all of our interview notes. And has actually brought a lot of like fairness and equity to the interview process. So that's most specifically, it's more around like time efficiency. So, we have a higher quality interview process and save people time. And they're awesome. Joel: Curious about AI on the other side of the equation. In other words, job seekers using AI to mass apply for jobs. Is that a concern for you guys? Are you seeing any evidence of that? More and more stories seem to be coming out about it. Carolyn Frey: I mean, I think in general, I don't know if it's AI driven, but we're definitely seeing mass supply. You know, we have a, I'm looking at someone on my team. We have a payroll position open and the candidates, I mean we have like 1800 applications and half of them have no HR payroll experience. Joel: That's fun. Carolyn Frey: I think the mass supply is an issue. I'm not sure if it's AI or other. Joel: Same with Box Panda. Jessica Swank: Plus one for sure. Chad: Yeah, it's the same thing. Joel: Yeah. So we were talking before, today and the labor shortage is a big story, for everyone. And it was really intriguing to know that two of the three of you aren't having a lot of shortage issues. So I want you each to talk about that. And if you're not, why aren't you? And if you are, what is life like for you and how are you trying to solve that problem? Let's start with Jessica. Jessica Swank: Alright. So job shortages. I would say we are not struggling with job shortage, or an applicant shortage. I think what we are grappling with, I think like many companies is finding the right person for the role. And I think what, you know, Carolyn was just mentioning for some of our jobs, we get thousands of applicants. So trying to grapple with and surf through them. And then you have other jobs, AI jobs where there is a particular shortage of a particular skillset. We also have a global organization. And so depending on where you are, what skill you have, it depends. So it's an and it's a yes and I would say so. Chad: Is there a training aspect of that? So you'd have to back down requirements a little bit so that you can get people in the seats and then start training because obviously somebody in the seat's better than nobody in the seat and their uptime might be a little bit longer, but still you can work on getting there and hopefully keeping them. Jessica Swank: I think it depends on the role. I think some roles you need more harder requirements. And yet other jobs, absolutely. We hire a lot on potential and we hire a lot on, are you a culture add? So can you bring other aspects to the role? And then how do we make sure if there are, you know, inevitable gaps or knowledge that you need to learn, then we work with you to make sure that you're both up. Joel: Joey. Joey Lee: Yeah. For us, in terms of Shortage. Joel: You have a shortage, by the way. Joey Lee: We don't have a Shortage. We have way too many applicants, but they're not qualified applicants. And what we did is we actually started doubling down on our employee value proposition. You know, really promoting our benefits. We also looked at our pay rate. So we're not the midpoint, we're above midpoint out there. We also tapped into different diversity organizations, looking at veterans, women back to work, all these different avenues. We actually went, we actually are going international as well. So looking at international talent. So casting a wider net for us is gonna truly help us, get more qualified candidates. And then our recruiters are actually using, the AI components to parse through all the resumes. 'cause we do get a lot of volume. Joel: Carolyn, you had an interesting perspective in that Poland is a focus for you. Obviously the Ukraine issue. Carolyn Frey: That was mine. Wrong person. Joel: Oh, was that Jessica? Chad: That was Jessica. Carolyn Frey: But That's okay. I can talk about our lack of talent shortage. Joel: You're not the only one that's sleep deprived. Sorry Jesse, you were talking about the Poland-Ukraine talent pool. Jessica Swank: Yeah, well I was just saying how, you know, so we have a very large engineering site in Poland. And so actually, you think about, you know, immigration issues. It's not only here in the US but it's also globally. And so where we think about diversity here in the US it looks different around the world. And so we're having to really think about where are the talent markets, where do we make sure that we need to do it, you know, kind of from an immigration following regulations. 'cause again, every country has their own regulations and yet how do we also think about diversity and diverse pools a little bit differently? Joel: Good segue. Diversity, equity and inclusion. How are you guys dealing with those challenges? Have you figured out your beer yet? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Okay. Chad: I think I'm good. Joel: Start with Joey. Diversity equity inclusion at Panda. Joey Lee: So, I think we're not, so I've been in a previous organization where DE&I was at top of the house. I think with Panda it's all about belonging, inclusive, they're starting to roll out DE&I training. So in terms of our focus is gonna be belonging and inclusive. Chad: So we've seen in the media, there's a lot of retraction of DEI initiatives. Is that something that you are seeing not just from yourself but also from your industry? Jessica Swank: So I wanna be very respectful in this conversation 'cause I think it's a very nuanced conversation. I think it is a movement and I think companies where we've seen them retract it is because they jumped on the fad of it was the in thing to do. And they, you know, did things for the bling and the press. And I think that companies where a sense of inclusion, a sense of diversity, a sense of belonging was important. I think that many companies, including Box, have just doubled down on that. Now again, we're thinking about it more from a global aspect as well. We are, as I mentioned earlier, as we have global organization, what does that look like globally? One of our values is bring your blank self to work. And so I think that sense of belonging, inclusion, it is integrated into the fabric of everything that we do. Jessica Swank: So our commitment to diversity, inclusion, belonging has been steadfast and will remain. We don't get it all perfect, right? We have our challenges as well, but I think for a lot of organizations, not to minimize the, challenges that we're seeing from some updated regulations and some very, you know, prominent figures out there unfortunately who are having a loud voice. I think we all need to come and say, no, that actually is not what we're experiencing and how do we double down and really advocate for, I think the goodness that diversity and belonging is not only for every one of us, but for the bottom line of the business. Chad: Carolyn? Carolyn Frey: I mean, I agree. It's a nuanced conversation. I mean the way I think about it's like progress is not linear. So I don't know that I describe it as a fad, but obviously was a big topic and continues to be over the last couple of years. But I would still argue we've made a lot of progress. I think we tried a lot. Like we, the collective people company community tried a lot of things after, in particular after George Floyd's murder. And I think we learned a lot. And I would agree with Jessica. I mean, my personal point of view is what I learned, I had a pretty large DEIB team at my last company was that actually we need to embed it in all the work we do and in our people strategy. And that's just a far more effective and impactful approach. So I guess I disagree that it's not important or we've like lost progress. I think we have, I just think that this, the tactic and approach is different. Chad: So we saw a lot of companies throw money at the problem. They did that in hiring CDOs chief diversity officers and then gave them no resources whatsoever. So from my standpoint, there were, the outcomes did not, were not there, So is this, is there going to be a rebirth in a more outcomes focused area, Joey? Joel: Are You guys all seeing budgets increase, steady or decrease. Joey Lee: In terms of who owns it. I think that's ownership, right? If you don't have a DEI team, who owns it If, so that's where if. Chad: Does anybody Own it? Joey Lee: Yeah. Does anybody own it? So I was just in a meeting last week and it was like playing hot potato and I just rolled up my hand. I was like, I wanna own it, right? But does it fall under TA? So who owns it? But at the end of the day, it starts at the top of the house. Everyone has to have skin in the game so it can be truly impactful. So right now I think it's that someone has to take ownership on it and it's that one team approach. Everyone has to be part of it. Chad: Yeah. So good question. Are you guys seeing resources, more resources on the DEI side of the house or has it pretty much stayed plateaued. Joel: Or cutting? Carolyn Frey: I'd say the same. Jessica Swank: Yeah. We've actually recently added, now it's one person, but every one person, but I also totally agree has to be embedded in the business. I think where, I saw peers and companies, they put one person and they said now they're gonna solve DEI for us and our organization. There's, everybody's set up to fail. I think it has to be embedded. It is embedded into our culture, it's embedded into our hiring, our development, our offboarding. It has to also be a business problem. And I think you have to have business leaders who are also held accountable. So I think again, it has to be a holistic approach. And again, we're gonna see ups and downs, but I think the trend, as Caroline was saying, I agree. I actually think the fact that the conversation that here we are still talking about it is a positive. Carolyn Frey: The only thing I'd add, I love you Joey, but I disagree with your statement, which is sort of like I was a little bit. Joel: No, I Love Joey. Joel: Yeah, I love you. I love Panda Express. And I support you. My daughter loves it. No, it's sort of like asking like who owns culture like that, question, I don't know, just like, makes me really mad. We all own culture. I think to Jesse's point, it is in the ethos. So I think... Chad: But somebody has to own it, own it though, right? It has to be under somebody for it to be, for there to be accountability. Carolyn Frey: I mean then maybe it's sort of like the CEO and executive team, but I don't think that, it would be the equivalent of saying like, the chief people officer owns culture. It's like, no, we enable culture. We're a big culture driver, but you know, we don't own culture. Culture is like a collection of a lot of different decisions at, you know, and data points and strategies across lots of different things is not just kind of from the people function. Joel: I wanna jump on the culture thing there for a second. And employment branding obviously is a big topic and you are all very different from a brand perspective. You know, granola esque, food service, high tech, you know, fast food. And Jessica, you have a really quirky CEO that I think plays into the employment brand as well. Just curious, we can start with, Carolyn, how does employment, how do you guys approach employment brand? It sounds like it's holistic at your company and that transcends into, recruiting. How do you put that message out? What's been most effective? Talk about that. Carolyn Frey: Okay. What's cool to work for a consumer brand and hopefully you all try it or have tried it is that we think about the consumer brand and the employer brand, like pretty closely linked. But it also is, I mean, the way... We're in sort of a in a grateful place Hungry, is performing really well. We have a very cool product. We have a very cool mission and story to tell. And our results are amazing and we've been profitable for a couple of years and the core business just kicks ass. So I feel like our employer brand, it sells itself because, especially sort of in this marketplace where there's so many companies restructuring not profitable, startups not making it we've been able to tell that story really well and that's kinda why we don't have a talent shortage. We've been really, really lucky. Joel: Joey Employment brand. Carolyn Frey: Joey's still mad. Joey Lee: Yeah, I'm... No, I'm super positive. Chad: Get Joey another beer. Joey Lee: Yeah. In terms of our brand it's... So our CEO it's husband and wife they really believe in putting people first. Throughout Covid, they have not laid off anybody. So they actually move individuals throughout the organizations, operators move them to different parts within different departments. They have a huge stake in developing people consistently. They're tough. I mean we call her the Tiger mom [laughter] and our CEO actually goes to the store. If there's trash on the floor, he will pick it up. So he actually leads by example and everyone does that. So everyone truly follows that same suit. Joel: Aaron Levy, how do you control that guy and how does he impact employment, if at all? Jessica Swank: Anybody who knows, Aaron knows there's no controlling, I joke, it's nudging him maybe in other directions and giving him very candid feedback. I do think though working for a founder, CEO, but also a co-founder, CFO, right? I joke that they're the brothers because they've known each other since middle school and they lead by example, right? You talked about that sense of they don't do anything that they don't ask others to do. And so that sense of we talk a lot about culture ads. The values have been seven years and going strong. The values, the culture, it's not just something that is talked about one and done. It is literally embedded into every single thing that we do. Even our performance management, we do the what? So delivering on the objectives, but the how we have four leader mindsets, business team, self and community. You have to meet a minimum threshold of both of those to be able to be successful. So again, it's not just talk, it is what do you do? I have a five and a half year old. It is all about kids learn what they live. I think people within organizations, you have to... Culture is about what we live day in and day out. It's those micro moments. It's the stories that are so important that I think actually really cultivate an incredible culture. Chad: So we recently saw... It's like a story that continues to surface where Klarna got rid of 700 customer service individuals and they replaced it with AI, right? It seems to be in some cases we're looking toward the future. How does that actually impact culture? DEI? The entire, I mean, this is something that we've gotta think about holistically when we start using these different technologies. So whoever wants to go first, [laughter] chew on that one. Joel: Is it hard to recruit when everyone thinks you're gonna lay everybody off in the near future? Carolyn Frey: That was like 10 questions in one [laughter] Chad: I'm good at those. Carolyn Frey: Okay, so the Klarna thing... Joel: Pick one. Chad: I don't think you were asking the question, but I do agree that AI, as I mentioned, I lead customer care too. We'll take away customer care jobs. In our particular situation we work with a BPO, so we work with a huge team in Mexico that aren't our employees. So they probably will be the most impacted. And I think in some ways it actually enhances culture for us. I hate to say it because our customer care agents will focus on like very high level tickets. So we'll implement it sort of just for the basic, Hey, my box wasn't delivered, or Hey, there was this damaged product. Pretty basic stuff to answer. Get customer credits, respond kindly, but much more difficult things of I got something I'm allergic to or I had a food safety issue. So they'll just be spending time on just, I guess like higher level human judgment. Maybe someone else can go and I'll think about the other questions that were thrown at me. [laughter] Jessica Swank: Well, I'll take on the actual, the layoff. So we've had a lot of internal debate, especially with during challenging times. Do we do something big and cut deeper to then reinvest in the areas of growth? And we have made a conscious decision not to. Now there's always gonna be org changes and some micro movements. However, in general, we have actually decided not to as an organization, even though the trend is there. And I think you see a lot of companies doing that because the safety, the psychological wellbeing, we think it's really important. And that fear-based culture. I ultimately don't think while you might get an improvement in short-term results, I don't think it's actually good for a healthy, long-term culture. Chad: Yeah, Productivity goes down dramatically. Not to mention retention, right? Because they're automatically looking for the next gig 'cause they think they're not gonna have theirs for long. What do you think Joey? Jessica Swank: And it impacts the team that are still there as well, right? Nobody feels good. So I think again, the tail of it, again, you can focus on the short term results, but it's a long tail. Really think carefully. Sorry Joey. Joey Lee: Yeah. We don't do layoffs. So I don't foresee Klarna doing any type of layoffs. I think one of the biggest challenges is that once we... They move people throughout the different organizations, right? But they're not skilled. They may have certain competencies, certain abilities to do certain things. For example, you take a general manager, you move them into recruiting, they've never recruited before, they've done interviews. So how do we up level them how do we get them... Provide them tools and resource to get to where they need to truly go. And that's the challenge, right? And that's why I feel like AI is gonna truly help. Because when you think about it, when you ask a recruiter how much percentage of their time do they spend on the admin side, they would say 60, 70%. So you take some of those AI components, give them at least 70% of their time to spend time with customers, spend time with hiring managers, spend time to consult. That's where we truly need to get them to. Carolyn Frey: Okay. I have a couple of thoughts. Well, on the layoffs, I mean, I think we're all people leaders or in the people space. I mean, it's really important to be very thoughtful around impact on DEIB. So we did a small restructure in January, not for cost reasons. And we transparently got a lot of heat from the company of where a lot of women were impacted. But we had to be very, very transparent around like the analysis we did. And we're a majority female company. And so as a result there are more females than males impacted. I was gonna say something else about culture, but I just lost my train of thought. Oh, I think what you said about jobs, I would guarantee if you asked anyone at Hungry they would not be fearing their job going away. And the reason is 'cause like we believe in very lean, scrappy teams. Carolyn Frey: So as I mentioned, we're about 400 million in revenue. Just to give some context, the people team is five people. And so like you want the right balance of not so resource constrained that you can't do your best work. But you also wanna be able to prioritize the most important things and everyone is tied to the impact they can have. So actually post a small restructure, we did, we've seen like engagement survey scores go up. People are just happier because they're actually more connected to the results and they're not worried about their job. Joel: Alright. Joey I'm not gonna let you off this easy. You can't just say we don't do layoffs. Without some pushback. Chad: He did. He said. Joel: And in your... He did. And your industry more than most, is it, I wouldn't say risk, but more impacted by AI and automation than most. You see robots flipping burgers, you see robots cooking food, you see drive-throughs that are AI voice. Joey Lee: Servers. Joel: You see... My local McDonald's, it's a kiosk. I haven't talked to a cashier for I don't know how long. Chad: He knows fast food. Joel: So help me understand in that environment where all your competition is automating that you guys won't, or what's your secret sauce that you don't have to? Joey Lee: No, we actually started some automation. So being in QSRs, the turnover there is about 70%. That's 70% is labor intensive, very hands-on. So we have robotics in terms of chopping vegetables, flipping the walk. The walk is heavy you do it eight, 10 hours a day it's super challenging. We're gonna double down on the customer service aspect, right? Providing the customer service aspect. We're applying to open 90 stores by next year. We're opening 180 stores. Chad: How many? Joey Lee: 180 stores. Chad: Wow. Joel: Which will employ how many people? Joey Lee: A lot [laughter] Joel: Good for you. Good for you. Chad: So let's go ahead and pivot into innovation. Three people on stage who get pitched a lot by vendors, many vendors in this room. But. Joel: How many calls a week? I'm just curious. How many calls a week do you get from a vendor, Carolyn? Carolyn Frey: Probably between like 50 to 75. Joel: 50 to 70. Chad: Woo. Jessica Swank: Yeah. Calls, emails LinkedIn. A lot. Joel: 50 to a 100? Oh, emails for sure. It'd be a lot more. Chad: In the same range. Joel: Wow. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So if vendors are listing, that's what you're competing with. A hundred calls a week from your competition. So go ahead. Innovation. Chad: Let's go high level. Indeed and LinkedIn pretty much own the market for the most part. They get a lot of cash out of all the vendors that are out there. They don't seem to be innovating much. They rename stuff, they put a different label, different lipstick on the pig and then they charge you more. What would you like to see out of vendors, whether it's them or even beyond those 75 plus that you get per week that actually means something to you? Carolyn Frey: Okay. I don't know why I'm going for it. This is not a pain point for us. The only thing in the recruiting... I think, 'cause you were specifically talking about the recruiting space, so probably in my more my field's experience and kinda like high turnover environments, we push the envelope on innovation. So I don't actually know that I have an answer, but I'd like to see more like experience based. I mean, you're right, like they haven't pushed the envelope at all. I think candidates are still sort of using the same approaches but probably like more, I don't know, something creative experience based interviewing. Chad: So question, do you use your database, your candidate database of candidates you've already paid for that have already possibly gone through interviews and those types of things? Do you use those as the first source of candidates to go through or do you just automatically post a job going to programmatic? What do you do first? Carolyn Frey: Okay. We post a job. And then we filter applications through Greenhouse. Chad: So you don't go back to database. Carolyn Frey: But we do a lot of referrals are a big source of hire for us. About 50% of our hires are referrals. So we prioritize those. And we do do sourcing for our kind of harder to fill like more technical data engineer roles or kind of dev roles. Jessica Swank: Yeah. One of the things we've done, so this past year we've spent a lot of time looking at our end-to-end tech stack and also then where the incumbents are, what our renewal dates are for each of those platforms where the kind of the upstarts are many of those in this room. And then we start having those conversations around where and how do we wanna innovate, where are the companies where we wanna make the bet, but also there's a cost to change. And then I would also say there's a fatigue of employees to having yet another system, yet another app. Where do I go to for this? Where do I go to for that? So I think the more companies that can integrate and have it be simple and make sure that it's talking and connecting with other vendors and/or other platforms, that is also, it's the push and the pull of always wanting innovation. But innovation within companies where we're already using are automatically gonna have a layback. Joel: Will you even consider a solution that isn't integrated into your primary platforms? Jessica Swank: Very few. Joel: Very few. Jessica Swank: Yes. If it is a spot solution that there's no other opportunity, but in general, I mean, I would say a number of the vendors where there's ongoing innovation within the platform and then you'll see, and what we're seeing a lot now is every vendor is trying to go broader. And so it's not only the new companies but it's the vendors pitching on, oh, but we can do this today, but we're gonna go and do X tomorrow. And understanding how all these pieces fit together is one of, I think our... As an industry and as people and communities, one of the biggest opportunities we have going forward. Chad: Do you feel in some cases that's like vaporware, oh, we're gonna do that or we're gonna do that? Jessica Swank: Oh yeah. And assessing what is vaporware and what is actually like oh no, that's coming. I promise you that's coming. Versus LinkedIn. Chad: It's on the roadmap. Jessica Swank: Is it on the roadmap? Can we actually deliver on it? Can we count on you to deliver on this? It's a tricky one, which also comes down to a lot of really digging into do you have the relationships? Do you know the chief product officer? Are you actually really understanding what the technology is and what it could be? Joel: Salespeople have a tendency of overpromising, I don't know if you guys have heard that. Chad: You mean salespeople. Joel: Salespeople, yeah. Chad: Product people. Not so much. If you can talk to product people generally you can get the right answer. Yeah. Joel: And they hate salespeople for over promising. Chad: Joey what do you think about that? Joey Lee: Yeah, so we're building our tech stack right now and I love Jessica's point in terms of it has to integrate, right? I think the two job boards out there is Indeed and LinkedIn. And if you use LinkedIn the last three, four months, it's changed. Indeed Same thing. In order to get your jobs out there, you have to sponsor them. If not, it's gonna be buried. So I would love to see another vendor compete with them, come out with work and go back to how Indeed LinkedIn started. I mean, where they were just homegrown. Carolyn Frey: I mean there's tons of vendors here and we're coming outreach, I wanna call it Remote bridge, which is one company I saw when I comment on like experience based interviewing and like pushing the envelope. And again, I mentioned it's not a huge problem for Hungryroot, but if I was back in kind of a high turnover, like harder to fill role, check them out. But it's like very cool. Like you enter Avatar land and imagine you can go and create a hiring fair for your frontline employees or for engineers who are really bought in and might be like a new and different way to interact with an interview. So that's kinda what I was talking about earlier with experience based, like wanting LinkedIn and the technology to really push the envelope. It's scary to try something new like that. But I think those breakthroughs are how we'll be able to address the broader talent shortage. Chad: So talent acquisition wasn't really an issue. What about the talent management and that whole funnel to be able to focus on productivity and then also retention. So are you seeing advancements in innovation in that? I'm sorry. Carolyn Frey: Yes. For sure I would say that area feels much more innovative I think because like performance is, yes, I will say there is innovation. A move to like simplicity to real time kinda ongoing feedback. Yes. Sorry, my brain is not working. Chad: You're good. You're good. It's the beer. We'll blame the beer. It's fine, it's fine. Joel: Remote work. [laughter] Ooh. Carolyn Frey: Am I fired? Joel: I don't know. I mean, Joey's answer might be interesting, but I'm sure like. Chad: Corporate jobs. Joel: Hybrid work, remote work solutions to help you manage a global work workforce. I think a lot of companies are struggling with, do we go hybrid, remote? Are you back in the office? How do you guys approach that question internally and how does it impact recruiting? Chad: Start with Joey. Let's start with Joey 'cause I wanna hear this. You've got corporate jobs and then obviously you've got jobs where they can't be remote. Joey Lee: Yeah. So we're required to come into the office twice a week, which is good. My first week there is funny, I was in the office, I was in back to back virtual calls, so I was like I did not leave the office one bit. So I went back to my leadership team, I was like I'm gonna move all my meetings on the days I currently work home. So I believe in that in-person, but if you're bogged down doing virtual meetings all day, it's pointless. There's no reason for that. There should be a mixture. I believe that. I like the people-people, the business interaction. Face-to-face with different executives. I enjoy that. The brainstorming element, the team building. But I do like the flexibility of the work from home. I mean, if I gotta take my daughter and pick up my kids from school, that's the beauty of it. And you just work your hours. Chad: Now is that the department by department scenario or do you have like a corporate like. Joey Lee: It's for the whole company for. Chad: Okay. The entire company. Okay. What about you guys, Jess? Jessica Swank: Yes, so we have kind of all types. So we have some roles that are in-office roles. We have some roles a lot of sales, some of the customer roles that are remote by role. And then we have a lot of people who are either remote by choice. The vast majority, about 60% of our Boxers are employees are kind of a mix of where they come into the office. And we want that. 'cause again, I'm a big believer of it. There is something different about when you can be in the office. When you can have that face-to-face in-person connection. What we're grappling with and still kind of working through is what does that exactly look like? To Joey's point we don't wanna say, Hey, come into the office and then sit on Zoom calls the entire time. Jessica Swank: That is not in anybody's best interest. So what we've been really trying to think about, so Tuesdays and Thursdays are today are what we call our IRL days. But we try and then really say during those days, don't have your Zoom calls. If you're gonna have a one-on-one, make sure it's a one-on-one with somebody who's there. Clear some of your calendar to have time to go and have the conversations in the coffee bar, in the lunchroom, whatnot. So I think we have to be more intentional. I think it is actually harder in some ways to have kinda this messy middle. But I actually think the flexibility, this whole like work life integration, which I think is incredibly important, is something that as we think about this next generation of workplaces, we also put a lot of care into our workplaces. That they exemplify our culture, that we really create that community, that sense of, again, that belonging. So when you come into the office, it actually is a place that you ideally wanna be able to come. Chad: Now being international, do you guys work with any EOR companies? Employment that employ of record platforms where you can go through them and they make it so much easier to actually hire remote people or even people on site? Do you use any of those types of organizations at all? Jessica Swank: We have tried one with mixed success. And so we are not going to at this point continue down that path because again, I think it sounds really good in theory. Haven't quite worked out the wrinkles in my opinion. Chad: So what was not successful about that? Did you have problems retaining, getting people in the door? What was the... Joel: And feel free to name names [laughter] Jessica Swank: I like being provocative. I like also being respectful. So I think what did not work, so our use case actually was during some M&A work that we did where we had employees that were part of an acquisition in countries where we were not legally set up to employ them. And so we used a vendor and again, it was just the promises that were made. And then what were delivered on in terms of the complexity in terms of they made some serious mistakes along the way. And so again, we kind of had to deal with then cleaning up their mess even though what they told us they could deliver and what they delivered there was a pretty big gap. Carolyn Frey: So It's not a panacea. Jessica Swank: Okay. This conversation makes me wanna poke my eyeballs out. We were talking at a group of CPOs last night, [laughter] about remote hybrid. So well I think Hungry is here to prove, first of all, I don't care where people work, so we're totally remote first. I do care about sort of meaningful interactions and meaningful connections and I think the coolest part about our company is while everyone else is just messing around with like are we in the office? Are we not in the office? What are the mandates? All this stuff we've just been crushing it culturally and also business results. So I think think we're a good use case to prove that, like you can do it. The other comment I'd make and sort of why it's a personal sort of like issue for me is like we've lost so many women caregivers in the workforce. Carolyn Frey: And I'm a mom of two kids in an executive position and like I'm able to do it all because I work from home. Work from home is not necessarily my happy place. It's not like I need to be at moments like this or go to New York or be with a team or with my CPO community. But I just think the data supports that. Like this is having a tough impact on females in the workforce. So on a personal level it stinks, but we from a competitive advantage are just going for it. So in our employer brand, we're like we're remote first and we're attracting amazing talent because of it. 'cause it's actually so unique. So we like that every other company is back to the office or many are. Joel: Well I think we're out of time and the bar is open real quickly. Give the audience a URL or a LinkedIn handle to where they can all connect with you. Starting with Carolyn. Carolyn Frey: Like personally connect with me. Joel: It's up to you. [laughter] Chad: Or not. Joel: Do you wanna put yourself out there that's on you. Chad: Hungryroot.com. [laughter] Joel: Jess. Jessica Swank: LinkedIn. I'm not social media so LinkedIn is the only way to catch me. Joel: Joey. Joey Lee: Same way. LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn. Joel: Let's hear it for the panel everybody give it up. Cheers everybody. Chad that is another one in the can we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way. There is no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas send bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Paying employees as soon as they clock out of a grueling day of work seems like science fiction, but it shouldn't. That's why we invited Nico Simko, founder & CEO at Clair, a company who helps employees get paid as soon as possible to the podcast. Nico's also a Forbes 30 Under 30 and a Harvard grad. Founded 2019, they've raised $194.6M, and have 80 employees. But while it's as common sense idea, it's not without its detractors, including those who claim businesses like his are just a payday loan scam preying on the poor and desperate. So, an invaluable tool to improve retention and solve the problem of absenteeism, or the devil? You decide. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel Cheesman: Oh yeah, it's Lenny and Squiggy's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always, the Laverne to my Shirley, Chad Sowash is in the house and we are welcoming Nico Simko to the show. He's founder and CEO at Clair, a company with a radical idea, getting your paycheck the minute you clock out of work. Nico, welcome to the podcast. Nico Simko: Thank you so much for having me. Chad Sowash: Nico Simko, tell me a little bit about that name. Joel Cheesman: It's his rap name. Chad Sowash: Nico Simko. Yes. Joel Cheesman: Nico Simko to the stage. Nico Simko: So I was born Nicolas Simko, but I felt that Nico Simko was, it rhymes. It's easier to say, it's short. It usually when you put it on a slide, you don't have to go to the line if you put it as Nico. Chad Sowash: So branding, this is all a branding thing. Nico Simko: This is all a branding thing. Joel Cheesman: So Nico, a lot of our listeners don't know you. A lot of them don't know the company. We'll get to the company, a second. Let's dig into you for a little bit. What makes Nico click? Chad Sowash: Deep, dark Secrets Nico, bring it. Joel Cheesman: Great taste in eyewear, by the way. Great taste in eyewear. Chad Sowash: And if you would, talk into the microphone, that would be helpful too. Nico Simko: I will try. I have to look in the distance. I have to look in the distance sometimes. Be like, what, how am I gonna answer this question? Chad Sowash: Just look into Joel's eyes. Nico Simko: Exactly. No, honestly, what makes me click is, and it's gonna sound really boring, but it's really true. It's the people. It's always about the people. If you asked me what I would put on my Twitter bio, that's what it would go. It's the people. It's the people. That's it. Joel Cheesman: It's not sexy, but it's an answer. Chad Sowash: And because people are stupid. I mean, come on, let's say you say people are stupid. So what about the people, about bringing them along, around shepherding them, around patting them on the head. I mean what? Joel Cheesman: Let's go deep. SFX: Just the tip Nico Simko: Look, we are fully social animals and we are not like normal animals. What we like to do is do things together and I think that that's one of the things that for me gets me to click. It's when you can work with a team on a really cool, ambitious project. It's when you've had a really long day and you're at home and you're decompressing around a beer with a bunch of friends. It's when you go... Chad Sowash: That's more fun, yeah. Nico Simko: You get on a plane. Exactly. You get on a plane and you go to somewhere you've never been before and people do things very differently than you did growing up or where you currently live. It's the people. Joel Cheesman: In Nico's defense, we pulled him out of his high school Econ class for this interview. So he hasn't had a lot of life experiences. So people is what he's got and what he's going for. I will add, he's being humble. You were a Forbes 30 under 30, you're a Harvard graduate and your undergrad was in Geneva of all places, correct? Nico Simko: Well, my high school was in Geneva, but I went to Harvard University for college. Yes. Joel Cheesman: There you go. Alright, enough about you. Nico Simko: Okay. Joel Cheesman: Let's get into the company. And quite frankly, one of the hottest trends in employment is this whole daily pay thing, this pay on demand. So talk about the company, the genesis. How did this thing get rolling? Nico Simko: Yeah, I'm gonna give you guys a two second gist. Can pay your friends in two seconds through Venmo, through Zelle, through whatever you want. Why can't you do this with your paycheck? Chad Sowash: Good question. Nico Simko: That's it. That's the story of the company. Chad Sowash: So why is it that companies haven't moved to this methodology already? I mean the technology, it's not like the technology's not available, it's not like all these different platforms, these human capital management platforms don't have payroll systems in them. So why is it taking so long for people to get paid? Because companies like sitting on the capital and getting the interest? I mean, what is it? Is it just that easy? Nico Simko: There's two fundamental things. If a business today wants to pay their employees immediately they're gonna face two issues. One, go to a restaurant, swipe a credit card, pay someone. That money's not gonna get into their bank account for the next two, three, four, five days depending on if it's on a Friday, if there's a holiday, whatever it is. It's gonna take time for that money to get into a bank account. So basically the business has to suddenly go and raise capital somewhere. If they're not doing that, then actually money that you owe for payroll is really great money management and treasury management because you delay your account payables and so there's no real financial incentive for the businesses to do it. Nico Simko: The second issue is the tax code. Most people in America are paid what we call W2, which is they get a paycheck in the mail and then they think their paycheck's gonna be high, but it's always lower. Why? Because there's a lot of taxes and deductions and all of this. That makes running payroll actually pretty complicated because you have to calculate all of these things, you have to account for them. It's not a very straightforward process. And with that, with the tax component is that the money doesn't travel immediately. Now, that might change with real-time payments, but still, if an employer wanted to do it, they're gonna still face the two issues, which is they have to calculate the taxes, these taxes can change. And in addition to this, somebody needs to front the capital. Joel Cheesman: And I assume you guys solve this problem. Nico Simko: Exactly. Chad Sowash: How often do the taxes change where you have to fix this formula all the time? It's not always a moving target, is it? Is this like an annual, quarterly? I mean why is this a problem? Nico Simko: It is a problem because there are things that always pop up. If you take the average worker, they will not work a fixed salary job. They will work an hourly job. If you take the average worker, they will take overtime. If you take the average job place, the hours need to be confirmed by the manager in order for this to be calculated, the manager has to confirm that those were overtime hours. They need to look at the latest list of how much is that overtime calculated for. Nico Simko: If you're working in delivery, there are laws around the idea that if it's more raining that day than another, then you should owe the person a bit more money. Those things add up to the complexity where operationally for business, it's better to do this every two weeks than to have to sit down every day and actually confirm that all of that is done. I agree, AI, a lot of technology can help with it, but it's still really complicated. Joel Cheesman: Do you guys solve that for them or are you just the financial sort of, do you guys loan them the money and they pay you back? Do the employees, is this a payday loan thing where they're on the hook for the money? Talk about I guess the backend stuff of this 'cause it sounds a bit complicated. Nico Simko: We advance the money to the consumer based on the data that we have from the employer. Because what we wanna do is say, look, employer, you wanna offer this, but you don't wanna deal with it. That's kind of every employer we talk to, that's what they tell us. And so we work backwards from the person who runs HR at an average business was like, I would love to give this to them, but look at the stack of work I have to do. So how do I do it simply? So we will front the money to the consumer. We will, all we want is the data so that we can make an underwriting decision. And then the employee repays. Now we don't charge any fees when they sign up for a bank. And that's the only way today that they can advance the money they need to sign up for a bank, put the direct deposit there. So it's basically a micro loan you give to consumers that they repay at their next paycheck without any fees. That's basically the product. Chad Sowash: So how do you get paid if there's no fees? Nico Simko: Brilliant question. What we do is we sign them up for a new bank, they put their direct deposit there and then we give them a card. It's a cute little blue card that employees can use in order to pay for certain expenses. When they do, let's say they go to Trader Joe's here in New York. Joel Cheesman: They're going to Chipotle. Nico Simko: Perfect, Chipotle. That makes even more money for us. That's great. So basically Chipotle, they buy a burrito, they get the extra guac, it costs them more than they thought. So it's $13 or $14. We are gonna receive approximately 1, 1.2, 1.3% of that transaction is gonna go back to MasterCard and MasterCard is gonna give that back to us. This is a relationship between Chipotle and MasterCard. It's just that we have an agreement with MasterCard because with the program manager, that we get most of it back to us and that's how we make money. Joel Cheesman: Are you a debit card or a credit card? Or is this a... Nico Simko: A debit card. Joel Cheesman: Okay. The company's paying you for the fee of the transaction and if they try to overspend what they have, it's like, sorry, no burrito for you, basically, just like with a... Nico Simko: No burrito for you. Joel Cheesman: Credit card. Chad Sowash: That's a sad day. Cheesman. Nico Simko: But the story is this, is that when I talk to a bunch of hourly workers, their feeling was this, look, I'm at the gas station, it's the 28th of the month, I've started paying some bills, my credit card bill and all of that, and I'm two, three days away from my paycheck arriving or sometimes it's five, six, seven, depends, and I'm at the gas station, I swipe my card and it denies, the card's denied. And that is one of the most frustrating and most painful experience you can think of. You're at the gas station, you need gas to get home. How do you do it? It has happened to many, many, many people out there. And the idea was like, hey, you've actually made a loan to your own employer. Why do I call it this way, is because you've worked and they owe you money. You're lending to them. Nico Simko: So why can't you just pull 20, $30 to get gas in the car and keep going? And that particular use case is where we said, oh my God, we're about to build the biggest financial institution in the country because we're gonna give free advances to people. On top of that, there's gonna be a great card and people are gonna love us for it. We're aligning our incentives. We're not trying to kick them when they're at the bottom. What we're trying to do is actually be there. Oh my God, this bank was awesome. Let me tell my friends. They should sign up for it because it's... And that's where the idea of Clair came up. Chad Sowash: So let's take a look at the entire kind of structure. So these are individuals who, at the end of the month, they need that cash. And we do know that at least a third of the population at the end of the month, they need that cash, right? Less than $1000 in their account at any time. So what's the incentive for anybody, let's say, for instance in the middle stack? I mean, I don't need the money, I've got more in savings. Is that actually an addressable market for you? And I'm asking that because there are some major Fortune 500 companies who employ those people who could easily obviously start using a service or a system like yours pretty quickly I would assume. And that would be a great benefit to any individual who's coming in. Nico Simko: Completely. We have people on our application that signed up for the bank, never took a wage advance. And when those cohorts three or four years ago started coming in, I went in our database and I just texted one of the user and I said, Hey, would you be willing to get on the phone with me for 20 minutes? Half of them thought there was a scam. So it took me a while to get onto the phone with someone. 'Çause like, why is the CEO of this company calling me? And honestly, I got on the phone with them and after one or two phone calls, some of them were not really fruitful. Somebody told me, was like, Hey Nico, the reason why I signed up for Clair is because I don't need the money every day. Most workers don't want the money every day. Nico Simko: That's what she told me. But knowing it's there makes me feel more financially free. And that became our mission. Make America's workforce feel financially free. It's not about you taking advances. We do not track that. An investor asked me on a board meeting, so how often do they take advances? I just actually don't know because what I care about is are they actually happily banked with us? And for us, the feature of getting your money right now is the free thing we give you so that you know can feel better at night. That's really, really... Chad Sowash: But using the card is how you guys get paid though, right? Nico Simko: Correct. Chad Sowash: I mean, at some time they have to use the card. So I would assume, and I'm sure you take a look at this because this is your revenue stream. Nico Simko: That we look at. Chad Sowash: When you take a look at actual users or percentage of the actual user base on a monthly basis, how often do they use their cards just in an average? Nico Simko: So on average, people will spend 80% of their paycheck on the Clair card. So we are their primary bank account. That for me is success, is that they trust us enough when they pull the card out of the wallet, they're like, that's the bank that I want. Although we're partnered with a bank, we're a financial technology platform on top of it, it's FDIC insured, they're called Pathward. But they really feel like the banking solution they get out of us is holistic enough that we're their primary choice. Joel Cheesman: Do you guys offer any interest on those accounts or not? Nico Simko: We do. We have a savings account we open before we advance any money to people because we want them to save. And so we give APY, it changes with the market changing. I don't exactly know what it's at right now, but it's correlated to what the Fed funds rates are at. Joel Cheesman: It can't be worse than Chase. It can't be worse than Chase. On the tax side. I'm curious. So when you work as part of the waitstaff of a restaurant, obviously you get $2 in whatever it is an hour and then you get tips on top of that. The company gives you your tax information in terms of your annual salary and then you have to report the additional tips. Does the company give you your tax information in regards to your hourly salary in this situation? So basically I have to keep tabs on, save enough for taxes. The company doesn't do it for me. Walk me through the tax situation as a worker. Nico Simko: Yeah, yeah. So this is the beauty of our system, this is where we add a lot of value, is that we remove that away from both the employer and the employee. What we'll know is, let's say, go to a restaurant worker again, I'll use your $2 an hour plus, the rest is tips, we'll know that this person makes $2 an hour. We know because of how much data we have that there is a 99% probability that giving them a dollar per hour, call it, is completely fine. And it's like we will get our money back, we will give them a dollar per hour. Now, luckily most employees will not be making $2 an hour. They'll be making seven, 15, 20, $25. So they're making more per hour. But that's the value of our algorithm is that now that we're at thousands of workplaces is we can analyze this data and get it as close as we can without taking any credit risk. Chad Sowash: And you will be able to actually provide spending habits for the entire American population who are using this card. You know when the dollars hit the bank and you know what's being bought pretty much right after those dollars hit the bank. To be able to have that data and as we take a look at generative AI and whatnot, being able to crunch that kind of data to be able to provide the kind of spending patterns back to the market, this seems like a play more for data and understanding the consumer market than it is even on the pay side. Nico Simko: That is exactly why I believe that, sure, getting your money as quickly as possible is an enormous product and we're doing it well, it's what I live for, but we're actually building the best financial institution in the country. Because what you're talking about here is you're marrying your bank to all of the information you have at work. So I can give you a list of products that do not exist today, but that could exist. One of my favorite examples today is I take the subway here in New York and I go to work. That is a pre-tax event. That is something that technically the tax code allows you to do as a pre-tax event. Why are we going to work? So there's tax... You will get tax rebates. Why can't I get that cash back immediately? Why can't I just swipe and says, oh great, we've connected all of that back to your payroll. Nico Simko: You get 10 cents back on this transaction. Why can't you actually, instead of taking wage advance, you say, please make my unpaid payroll a collateral account and then help me use that to increase my credit score. Why? Because you're like, look, I'm working my hours, my money's aside, now can I use that as a proof that I'm gonna get paid? You can get your credit score. You didn't do anything. You just went to work and your credit score goes up. There are products today that could help America's workforce get so much more ahead financially of where they are that today don't exist because the banks don't marry to your workplace. Chad Sowash: Okay, that's just a mind-blowing scenario right there. Because again, again, you're working on the base of allowing people to get money right after they've rendered services. I mean that's what it comes down to, right? When you go and you go into a store and you have somebody sharpen a saw or something like that, you pay for rendered services, right? This is exactly what you're talking about is I go to work on a daily basis, I've rendered services, therefore you pay me, right, then. Then I go and spend money or wherever it might be. You're gonna have access to all of the data to where that money has been spent from a spending habit standpoint. Not to mention, as you had said, which goes above and beyond, you know all the people who actually came through into, took the subway system, whatever, they came into work, they did work. And then there's the tax incentives that actually go back to the companies. So I mean there's a huge reason why a company would want to use this because they have proof that here's my workforce, here's what my workforce did, now give me my tax incentive money. Nico Simko: Exactly right. Chad Sowash: So there are so many different avenues of approach for you to actually use this data. Then you can actually go back to the US, the BLS, any of those departments who want data on spending habits and workflow, so on and so forth. This is exciting just from a data standpoint. Joel Cheesman: So Chad is super excited. S?: Alright, alright, alright. Chad Sowash: Super excited. Joel Cheesman: Let's look at some of the other things benefits companies get from this 'cause I got to imagine asking them to change the way they've done things forever is not easy. There are a lot of research out there and posts about absenteeism and retention improvements with a system like this. Can you talk about any data that you're seeing in terms of companies having people show up to work and not ghosting them? Anything around that that you can share? Nico Simko: We have seen that with Clair, you have 1.5, 2x more people applying for a job. I was in the subway this morning. There was a company, I don't think they work with us, but they listed why you should come at work. The only one that was bolded is get paid daily. I think people have realized that getting your advance, getting your money as soon as you finish work, which by the way, it sounds so simple to say, I have no idea why I had to start a company in this space. I feel like this should have been solved 20 years ago. I'm serious. And so I'm like, great. Somebody left this opportunity for somebody to jump in, but what the hell happened to society that nobody thought about doing this before? And so that increases people wanting that job. Nico Simko: The second thing is people, I've heard anecdotal stories and I don't know how this transform into data. I've had an employee tell me in one of the user research I've had, he's like, look, Nico, I signed up for Clair because I work at this restaurant. I won't pass the name of the restaurant. And I used to be sick at the end of the month and go drive Uber. And I said, why? Joel Cheesman: He put air quotes in there for the listeners. Nico Simko: Exactly. He told me, he was like, look Nico, I kind of just wanted to make the money right now because it gets tight at the end of the month. And then I saw this and I was like, okay, I'm not gonna call sick anymore. And he was like, I picked up more shifts and he gave me an incentive to pick up more shifts. SFX: Oops, winning. Nico Simko: And then I met a nurse who was in the suburbs of Chicago and she was telling me this story. She was like, look. Joel Cheesman: I like where this is going. He met a nurse in Chicago. Nico Simko: We were launching the product, we had the cards on site. Joel Cheesman: We know where this goes. SFX: What are you doing, step bro? Joel Cheesman: Sorry, continue. Nico Simko: Thankfully, no. So she basically was like, I had a job offer to go somewhere else across the street and to make 50 cents more per hour, which was a big deal for her. She was an assistant nurse and she told me, look, I didn't take the job because I knew that knowing I could get my paycheck at any point gave me more financial stability than a 50 cents increase. So you retain your workers a little bit longer. Now I'm not gonna be around and be like, I know exactly the number it's gonna be at your exact workplace of retention. No, no, no, no. I'm not in that business because I think it varies a lot business by business and it's hard for me to give a number. But I think the facts and the qualitative facts are there that these products are very needed for the workplace and for employers. Joel Cheesman: So Nico, this industry is not without its critics and its regulations and government interference. So Nevada and Missouri are two states that have implemented or introduced laws where you have to be licensed and you're into more of what's going on. So explain what's going on there and you simply have a lot of people pointing the fingers that this is sort of a payday loan thing, DailyPay, one of your competitors on Trustpilot. And not that that's not the be all end all, but it has one star out of five, 600 something reviews. People don't like the service. I don't know if that's the company or the actual what they're doing. So talk a little bit about the government regulations and some of the customer or critical opposition that you're getting to the business, fair or foul. Nico Simko: Look, when we started this business, it wasn't clear whether this was a loan, not a loan. I love the duck test. Not sure if you guys know what the duck test is, but if it looks like a duck. Joel Cheesman: Oh, duck, duck. Nico Simko: It walks like a duck, swims like a duck, sounds like a duck, what is it? Joel Cheesman: It's a duck. Nico Simko: It's a duck. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Nico Simko: And so whenever I would just talk to any lawyer, I'd say I would like to advance money to people based on payroll data and then for them to pay me back once they get paid. And they were like, that sounds like a loan. And every single time it was the same. So I was like, well, but everybody else doesn't call it a loan. And it seems like there are states that decided this is not a loan. And so they're like, okay, you do what you want, but this looks like a duck again. And so I sat down and I said, Hey, if I am fresh and new to this, at least from a compliance perspective, and everybody's pointing to the fact that this looks like a duck but everybody wants to ignore it, I said there might be defensibility here, there might be something that really sets us apart. Nico Simko: And so I understood why calling it a loan was actually complicated. It's because it costs a lot of money. You have to create a consumer lending program, you have to get licenses in most states, you have to get audited by most states. You have to, not only, some states require three licenses, not only one, you have to apply for each of them, you have to maintain them, you have to have an internal compliance and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can keep on going. And so I said, well, we're gonna do it. And so I went over to the investor and said, I have two options. I can do this in a way that is like, I'm pretty sure it's gonna be fine because there's laws attached to it that have been there since the Truth and Lending Act in the '70s. So we had to do it this way. Or we go cowboy. And we're like, we hope all the states are gonna agree that this is not a loan, might happen. And we decided to go the more conservative route. And so that really helped us from a business development standpoint. But it's still a debate out there, it's still a debate. Chad Sowash: Well, I mean at the end of the day, we're taking a look at the prospect of, which are out there today in some states, not all states, predatory payday loans, which used to be against the law, but they're not in some states now. But what you're saying is this is not a, we give you $20, you give us 40 when you get paid scenario, you're not getting paid a vig off of the dollars from the actual consumer/worker. You are making that money through transactions via MasterCard. Nico Simko: Exactly. That's exactly right. Chad Sowash: I can see where obviously some would want to know more because there are a lot of predatory shit that's out there. Joel Cheesman: It sounds too good to be true. Chad Sowash: Oh yeah, it does sound too good to be true until you start to get deep into the actual data play and the understanding of how the monetization works. And that's the big key. So have you been talking to legislators about this and how long did it take for you to actually educate them for them to understand that this was not something that was bad for workers? Nico Simko: We've never charged at Clair, fee for a wage advance. I think, look, when we talk to consumers, many of them don't want Clair because it requires them to get a new bank account. So consumers sometimes say, Hey, I just want this once. I just want to pay three bucks and get it right now. And it's the best thing. So I get why as theoretically in the market this should exist. And I think it's the right thing for consumers. We just for the past years, never charge a fee for this. 'Cause we're like, we wanna be a bank. Wanna be a big financial institution in the future. Yay. It's like, let's go for this big dream. And when we talk to legislators, we are a very funny horse because we're like, Hey, we went overboard on licenses. I come with a truckload of them and I did all the work. Nico Simko: And by the way, I've never charged a fee. So they're like, you never did the fee thing and you got all the licenses. Who decided this? Because it doesn't make much sense. But the reason why we did it, and the reason why I think it makes a lot of sense is because it protects us from a compliance perspective and we're doing the right thing for consumers. That's it. I just don't want to deal with some states some days having a debate and now I need to go with everybody else in the group and go tell them why... I have other fish to fry. I have a business to build. So let me pay the bill once, get all the licenses and then move on. Joel Cheesman: You had me at Chipotle. SFX: Oh my God. I want chipotle. Chipotle. Joel Cheesman: Oh, that is Nico Simko, everybody. Nico, for our listeners who wanna know more about you or the company, where do you send them? Nico Simko: Getclair.com. That's G-E-T-C-L-A-I-R.com. Joel Cheesman: Thanks. And we'll let you get back to Econ class. We appreciate your time. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out!

Nothing strikes fear into the hearts of employers or the vendors that service them quite like the threat of a lawsuit. These days, legal challenges and the opportunity to take a business to court are aplenty ... compliments of artificial intelligence. Whether it's an entire block of countries like the EU, or individual states like California and New York, the risk of new laws and regulations putting an organization at risk are higher than they've ever been. That's why we had to get Guru Sethupathy, co-founder and CEO at FairNow, a company that helps ensure your AI solutions are compliant and well-governed, on the show for a quick check-in not the current State of AI. Whether it's the UK adopting it’s own alternative approach to regulating AI, California's Safe and Secure Innovation for Frontier Artificial Intelligence Systems Act, NYC Local Law 144 or even India's latest regulations on hiring, we need a guru - yep, pun intended - to help us better understand what's going on. It's a must-listen if your hiring practices leverage AI or if your company provides such services to employers. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah. It's Dante's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always, the J to my silent Bob, Chad Sowash is in the house, and we welcome Guru Sethupathy, co-founder and CEO at FairNow Company, who helps companies ensure that their AI solutions are compliant and well-governed Guru, welcome to the podcast. [applause] Guru Sethupathy: Joel, Chad. Good to talk to you guys again. It's been a few months. How are you? Chad: It is now. Make sure that everybody understands, give us a little Twitter bio, but how long did it take you to actually get your name legally changed to Guru, and how long, is it gonna take to be able to get AI as your middle name? So Guru AI. Guru Sethupathy: That's what I'm working on. Chad: How long is that gonna take? Joel: I heard he's working on his doctorate in love so he could be Love Guru Sethupathy. No. Guru Sethupathy: Do you remember Mclovin from back in the day? Chad: How long is it gonna take us? Speaker 1: Mcguru is coming. Chad: So give us a little Twitter bio for all the listeners who didn't hear the last episode. You were on. Just little bit of love around Guru. Who is Guru. Guru Sethupathy: Thank You guys. Yeah, absolutely. So I am founder and CEO of FairNow. Basically like Joel said, we help companies, especially in the HR space, but other spaces as well. Everyone's talking about AI right now. Everyone's wanting to build AI, use AI, but as we all know, it's also a little risky. And so helping make sure that what you're putting out there is tested, it's compliant, it's fair, all of that kind of stuff. Joel: Look at you raining on the AI parade danger? Oh, no risk. No, don't say that. Guru Sethupathy: Not at all. Not at all. Chad: Now is, is Workday pounding down your door since they have a discrimination lawsuit right now? Guru Sethupathy: Man, that is a fascinating story. I don't know how many of your readers are familiar with this, but yeah. A year ago, a gentleman sued Workday. And apparently the situation was, he'd been rejected from dozens of job applicants that he'd applied for, and said, Hey, Workday was the common kind of filter in all these job applications. Now, what's interesting is a judge, just in January, throughout that lawsuit, not saying that, Workday was fair or not fair or biased, or was not adjudicating on that, but more like, Hey, what's Workday's role as part of the recruiting ecosystem here? They're not like actually a hiring company. But they've come back on February 20th, he refiled it, amended it, and so the lawsuit's back on. And so this is gonna be one of the big test cases, Chad, in terms of what's gonna happen in this space. And so we're all waiting to see what happens. Chad: Well, California, their first version of the regulations that they started pushing out actually had vendors on the hook. So I mean, do you see that actually as just kind of like the first draft and that'll fall away? Or do you think that vendors are actually going to be on the hook, the vendors and also the companies. Joel: And employers. Guru Sethupathy: I see both sides. Absolutely. And it's not just California. If you look at the EU AI Act, which is the big deal, I know we're gonna talk about that in a few minutes. Chad: Let's do it. Guru Sethupathy: But that one, New Jersey, New York State, California, all of them talk about both sides of the market. So Absolutely. Joel: Do you service mostly the employer side or the vendor side? Like who's coming to you? Is it both or just one? Obviously both will eventually start knocking on your door. But what is it right now? Guru Sethupathy: That's a good question because it's not what I would've guessed initially. 'Cause initially we went a little bit more after the employer side. Because of the New York City law and, other things. But who's actually been knocking on our door more? It's actually the vendors and here's why. Because they are getting [0:04:19.0] ____ questions from their customers. And what does a vendor care about? They care about selling to customers. And so if that's slowing down their sales cycle questions are slowing down their sales cycle, they're like, okay, we gotta find a way to answer these questions. So that's what's driving, the inbound right now. Chad: Yeah. Well that makes a hell of a lot of sense. So listen, listen, vendors, if you are fumbling and stumbling and bumbling over the answers around AI, you might wanna call a guy like Guru. But question here though, as we talked about Workday. They just acquired HiredScore who, Athena Karp, who you might know. She was amazing at explaining and defending what they were doing. So do you think this is almost like Workday's way of saying, okay, we need AI 'cause everybody's getting AI, so we need AI, but we need what everybody's calling, here we go kids, responsible AI. That's right. I used air quotes. Do you think that was pretty much like the bandaid? It's like, okay, we, can get this covered if we get Athena, her group, and people who actually know what the hell they're doing in here. Do you think that was it? Guru Sethupathy: I have a hunch. I think you're onto something there. I think both in terms of the AI journey. I think HiredScore has been around for a while And has been quite innovative in the space of AI. I actually haven't gone deep on their product with Athena, but I've talked to her about this. She and I have had multiple conversations about responsible AI. And I found her to be one of the more thoughtful peoples around this topic. So I would not be surprised if both from an AI roadmap HiredScore was attractive, but also kind of Athena and how she thinks about responsible AI, I'm sure was very attractive to working to her. Joel: Guru when you talk about these things, it's normally a big company, Workday, CVS, the little guys out there have to be freaking out. They don't have the resources to build responsible AI are you getting calls from them? And what is that conversation like? Guru Sethupathy: Again, it's about the vendor versus the the employer. So on the vendor side, we actually have small vendors. Who are customers, because again, they're trying to sell to big companies. And so big companies are like, who are you? And how do I know your shit isn't biased? So then they're like, all right, we gotta get through these sales cycle. So on the vendor side, it's big, small, medium, are all kind of, knocking on the door. Joel, on the employer side, you're right. It's the bigger companies because they're the ones who are more likely to get sued. If you're a small, medium sized company, you're like, yeah, I don't... I'm not gonna... [overlapping conversation] Joel: So are you priced for the smaller guys versus bigger vendors? Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're pricing, it's a combination of like, how many models do you have? How complex are your models? Those kinds of things. And so if you're a bigger vendor, you're probably gonna have a more complicated AI ecosystem. Chad: Well, Yeah. I mean, we just last Friday talked about how HireVue was an issue for CVS. So CVS is getting sued because of the use of the HireVue system. At least that's how it's... That's how it's drawn up. So if you're a company, well, first and foremost, if you're a HireVue, you gotta get your shit together. You gotta do it quick. But even more so, if you're a company, especially like a brand like CVS, you have to defend that brand. I mean, you have to, you have to be... Guru Sethupathy: You have to. Chad: You have to do it. And you have to be ahead of everybody else. Guru Sethupathy: That's right. Chad: Unfortunately, they were not. So are you seeing more companies being more thoughtful about, okay, we want to be able to, we have to introduce AI into the process. Because if we don't, we're gonna be left behind. So we have to be able to do it. We've gotta figure it out. But how do we get people in who actually know what the hell they're doing? Guru Sethupathy: So you covered a lot there. I want to hit on the Air Canada situation. Did you guys see that one? That's another good example. Chad: Yes. Joel: I didn't see that one. Guru Sethupathy: Where chatbot, So Joel, they had a chatbot that's basically a customer facing chatbot. And a customer asked them about their discount policies, and it made something up, basically. And so the customer then went ahead buying a ticket. Assuming that to be true. And then found out it wasn't. And it was like, wait a second, I was told explicitly, yeah, X, Y, Z and then Air Canada came back and was like, oh, no, no, no. That chatbot's a separate company like. Joel: Don't. Guru Sethupathy: And that's not, the judges rule that they were responsible and they're liable for that. So, these are the kinds of the trial and errors that we're gonna see a lot of where companies try things, they're gonna mess up. And then other companies are gonna be like, whoa, we gotta be careful here. So you're gonna see a lot of that. I think, but you're absolutely right. I think here, and this is one of the things we've started building into our platform. Is actual testing of chatbots, of LLMs, of GenAI, testing it for bias, testing it for hallucinations. Is it saying crazy stuff? Is it saying weird stuff? Like, we actually have some, capabilities to test around that. So you can test that out before you release it into the wild. Joel: I hope Google's listening after their recent, faux pas with. Guru Sethupathy: Gemini. Joel: Yeah. Gemini. Chad: That's not even a faux pas. You're asking for something and you didn't get what you want. So now you're bitching money. Joel: No, their QA was messed up. They should attest to that better. Chad: No, that's bullshit. Guru Sethupathy: That was very surprising, guys. Very, a company like Google. Chad: They're images. I mean, come on. This is a little bit different than actually outcomes and screwing somebody over because they were a female and they played softball and the AI saw that that happened. This is hurting somebody versus not hurting somebody. A little bit different. So let's talk about the actual regulations and the EU go figure is leading on this. So tell us what the EU is doing. Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. Not surprising in a way. Because the EU does operate in a more top-down fashion. It is gonna be like a multiple 100s of pages kind of legislation. They've been working on it for a while. So where we've landed since we last chatted, so back in December, there was an informal kind of agreement around the contours of the legislation. What's happening now, dribs and drabs of it have been released. And in April, I believe they're doing a final formal vote on it. And then I think 20 days after that, it goes into "effect." I put that in quotes because companies will have time. So it's kind of a lagged effect. You'll have six months to get certain things in order. You'll have a year to get kind of your bias testing in order. Guru Sethupathy: You'll have a year and a half or to two years to get your reporting infrastructure and governance layer in order. So there's different components to it, and there's different time lags to each of these things. But it's happening. It's happening. And the fines are huge. Up to 6% of your annual revenue. So this is not like the New York City law on any way, shape or form. The New York City law, I wrote a blog post on this, ended up having no teeth behind it. And part of it was the fine was $500 per, I mean, what, why am I buying? Exactly. And it was very narrow. It was focused on AEDTs, which are automated employment decisioning tools, for hiring and promotion, but only if it's automated, completely automated. Guru Sethupathy: So if you could easily come in and say, oh no, my human's in the loop. It's not automated and get around it. The EU AI act is much more broad. It even outlines kind of eight high risk areas of which guys, just so your audience knows, HR is one of the eight high risk areas. So HR is going to be in the crosshairs of this legislation. And very consistent. And I think California, New York State, others are going to have HR in the crosshairs as well. So I think HR, financial services and health are gonna be three of the domains that are gonna be in the crosshairs of all of the AI regulations going Forward. Joel: One of the things that you mentioned is the importance of upskilling. So in that time window companies should be preparing, building the skills internally. Like talk about how companies should view it upskilling as opposed to just maybe hiring a company like yours. Or should they do both? How do I prepare? Guru Sethupathy: They should do both. Because we're more of a platform company. We're a technology company. You're still gonna need humans in the loop. And making kind of really thoughtful decisions around risk, reward, trade-offs. The thing that I say is, look, at the end of the day, no one is trying to reduce risk down to zero. If you were trying to take risk down to zero, you'd never leave your bed. You'd never leave your house. So that's not how we operate. That's not how humans operate. That's not how businesses operate. But you need to know enough of the calculations to understand, okay, what's the risk of this technology? What's the reward? And are we comfortable with it? So you need both people at the junior levels who understand governance, but then you need senior stakeholders who really ultimately need to make these calls at a company wide level. Guru Sethupathy: What is our transparency policy? What is our red line? Let me give you an example. If you're thinking about something like predicting attrition at the individual level, a lot of companies have tried this. My teams have built stuff like this. It's a little bit minority report desk. If I can predict that Joel will leave his company with 70% probability, okay, what do I do with that information? Do I throw more money at him? Do I try to keep him? What if Chad's about to leave with 67%. What's the difference between 70? I mean, you start to get into situations where like, you don't know how to use these insights and what to do with it, and then people can start gaming it. So it's actually, there's a really interesting ecosystem around some of these insights around AI. And so that's where you have to, as a company, say, okay, we're not gonna use it for that purpose. It doesn't make sense. It's not gonna drive value and it's gonna break trust. So these are the really intricate conversations that you need to be having. But to do that, you need to have the talent that understands this at the detail level And at the philosophical level. And there needs to be upskilling. Chad: Well, let's talk about risk real quick. 'Cause I think this is the risk that companies are going to care about the most. If the Workday suit was brought in the EU, 6% of their global revenue equals $420 million for a Workday, that is a risk they care about, right? Guru Sethupathy: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there's two risks. I think that one, that's a pecuniary fine related risk. Now, I don't think it'll be that high. It'll be up to that amount and it'll be... But it'll be significant. But reputational risk matters. Like reputational risk matters, if you're losing customers or candidates because of some perception around how you treat your technology or how little you've tested it and those kinds of things. That one's a little harder to measure in terms of dollars, and cents, Chad. But it can add up to be even larger than that amount. Chad: Yeah. Especially from a revenue standpoint. I mean, it's not only the fine, but the perspective of lost revenue. I mean, optics. Guru Sethupathy: Lost revenue. Chad: Obviously it all factors in there. Now, as you were talking about some of the things that you're gonna have to do at the EU, like, evaluating the impact of AI. And then also ongoing, monitoring. What does, that even look like? Guru Sethupathy: So that's where kind of, we come in and help. Like, what does that look like? And when you're talking about ongoing monitoring, that's... If you're doing this manually, that ends up being, you need to hire like a big old data science team. And how many HR organizations have the capabilities to hire a big data science team. And then on top of that, they're gonna be like, wait a second. I thought you told me AI is gonna reduce my costs. Now I gotta go hire a big data science? So, this is where it gets tricky, but that's the beauty of kind of technology, like what we're building, where we can automate this. Like we have expertise in this. We've done this for many, many years. We know how to automate it. We know the ins and out, we know the details. And I think that can go a long way to helping companies, again, leverage the technology in a positive way, which again, I'm super bullish on. I think I shared this analogy with you guys last time. Like AI, like cars are an incredible technology. It transformed our societies, but at the same time, you gotta have breaks, you gotta have a dashboard, you gotta have rear view mirrors, otherwise, what are you driving? You're driving death mobile. So just put those things in place and then go fast. Joel: You talk about the EU, and as I listen to this, I realized how complicated and complex this is going to be, and I think about Europe. Yeah. Well, apparently the UK is gonna have their own sort of set of, AI regulations, talk about what they're doing and how it's different or what you expect them to do, and how it might be different from the EU and the US. Guru Sethupathy: I think part of it is, again, what one of the insights that we have is this is gonna be very patchworky. Each country and region and state is gonna have their own. In fact, they're kind of competing. I've talked to folks in various state offices who are like, oh, we gotta... What's that other state doing? Oh, what's that state doing? Well, we gotta... Exactly. So there's going to be that element of some competition amongst the regulators there. That being said, there is some common themes, and maybe that's what you're getting at Joel a little bit. The common themes are around, hey, you gotta evaluate and monitor your models. Like, that's just the thing. And especially on a couple of dimensions. One is, bias that always comes up. So evaluate bias. The other dimensions that come up are around hate, transparency and explainability. Guru Sethupathy: Can you explain what your model is doing? If it's a black box, that's kind of a problem. Especially in the hiring space and lending space, healthcare. Like these spaces, you can't just be like, oh yeah, we just rejected your loan. Good luck. We don't know why. Like, you can't, you can't do that. So things like bias explainability are gonna be really, really common in these legislations. And then when it comes to GenAI, you're talking things like data privacy and security. Can someone hack into your GenAI? There's all this stuff you guys are probably reading now, like poison attacks. I dunno if your audience has heard that, but that's where you kind of penetrate the system and basically inject it with kind of your own prompts and almost teach it to be a bad kid. And then you can do whatever, you can do nefarious things. So there's a lot of security related things, data privacy related things. And so you see kind of some of these common themes, across the different laws and legislations. Chad: And I think it makes it much harder because deep learning is a black box. And almost every case that's out there, if you take a look at some of these models, they're off learning by themselves. It wasn't something that was programmed. It was something that was a part of the process. Chad: The data that's entirely different. What data are they training off of? And I think that's where you get companies HiredScore, which was Smart Buy for a Workday, where they know exactly what their data sets are. They know exact. And that's the secret sauce. So from the standpoint of a lot of people are pointing to the AI piece, which I obviously that's going to be the output, the learning and output. But isn't the data just as if not more important in this whole scheme of things? Guru Sethupathy: It's more important. It's not even the same. It's more important. In fact, I don't know how much you follow the whole competition between Meta and Open AI and Google and all the, right, in terms of the foundation, one of the things you might be noticing is they're all converging. Their performances at least. And it's because the modeling techniques are known now. Amongst these top level data scientists at these organizations, they know what the best practices are. They know it's... Google published this famous paper called Attention Is All You Need, or something like that, which was a groundbreaking paper in this Gen AI space. And then other companies copied it. So a lot of that is not where you differentiate yourself, where you differentiate why everyone thinks eventually Google will get back on the right track and win this, is they have the most and best data out of anyone in the world. And so at the end of the day, we still expect Google to be at the top of this AI race. But to your point, that's what differentiates it. Your ability to know and have the best data and understand that data really well, and then be able to put it in a way that it's well governed. If you cannot make these mistakes, if you have amazing data and not make these mistakes, you're gonna be ahead of the game. Joel: America's unique in that it has a 50 state, set up to where everyone makes their own rules. Talk a little bit about the current state of, what certain states are doing. We've got California with SB 1047, New York Local Law 144. Anything else that we should be looking, into the future for different states doing unique things around AI? Chad: It's chaos. Guru Sethupathy: Absolutely. Chad: It's all chaos. Joel: It's cats and dogs living together. Guru Sethupathy: It's gonna be, each state's gonna have it. And that, imagine how complicated that's gonna be. But then again, our tax system is a little bit that. Each, you have a federal tax system and set up, and then each state has their own specific tax policies, tax rates, tax discounts for this thing versus that thing. And so you end up then building an ecosystem of people who specialize in that stuff. And that's what happens with regulation. Anytime you have a regulation, then you have an ecosystem of people, lawyers, and experts and consultants who then start specializing. So I expect that to be the case, Joel, here, where you're gonna have that regulatory ecosystem. So you have California, New York State is separate from the New York City local law Joel, so there's gonna, there is a New York State law as well. Maryland, is working on one right now. New Jersey has one. And then there's a bevy of other states. Massachusetts, Maine, Colorado has one that's focused on, it's fascinating, insurance companies right now. So that's a more targeted for the domain. The other ones that I mentioned, New York State, and California in particular are much broader. So that's gonna be the interesting piece, is some of these are gonna be quite broad, and some of them are gonna be domain specific. And so we're gonna see how that plays out. Joel: Similar taxes, we have local taxes, we have state taxes, and we have federal taxes. And the federal trumps all that. And we talked a little bit about politics in the green room. I was surprised to see the FCC come out with laws so quickly around robocalls. Joe Biden, famously recently called people, it wasn't him, but he was saying, don't vote. So. Chad: That was Dean Phillips, wasn't it? That was the other fucking Democrat. Guru Sethupathy: No, no, it wasn't him. It was someone on his campaign. It was someone who used to work for Dean. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: I'm sure there's stuff, we don't even know what's going on. But I was impressed to see the FCC move so fast to make this illegal, which tells me, and I commented recently that politicians are freaking out thinking that their voice could be out there saying, who knows what. So what's your take on the Feds coming down with, okay, everyone, here are the rules. All the states are gonna follow it. Are we gonna stay in this disparate state rules? Can the Fed come in and make sense of all this, in your opinion? Guru Sethupathy: I think it can on certain areas. And they have, if you saw the White House EO, I think that came out right around Halloween of 2023. There are a couple of areas where the federal government does have domain. And when it comes to things national security or things our democracy. That ends up being the federal government's domain. And it's actually concerning. And I think they moved fast because we are, we talked about this, Joel, we're in an election cycle right now. So it's not something they can wait six months to do. And you guys have seen it, this can be crazy. It's the voice stuff. It's also the image stuff. It's the videos. You can make anything now. And you saw Sora, have you guys played around with Sora? Which is, I mean, video... [laughter] Joel: Isn't that making movies. Or you can, yeah. Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. That's the one. And you can put people in there, you can put, I can put Chad in one of those movies and have him doing stuff he's never done. And in actuality. And so... Chad: No ideas, Cheeseman. Joel: I won't take the podcast, we got Guru on the show. I'm not gonna muddy it up. Don't worry. [laughter] Don't worry. Guru's too high class for that. Guru Sethupathy: So that stuff is now, and so I completely understand why they came in to try to curtail that right now. That being said, other things like, hey, how do you wanna govern software in the hiring space or the lending space? Now the thing is, there's already, so one other thing I do wanna say, and Keith talks about this a lot. There's already federal legislation involved in lending and in hiring and in health. We already have, there's rules already. So in hiring the EEOC, we have... There's this chapter, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, where you cannot be biased and it doesn't say humans can't be biased, or AI can be, it doesn't say anything. So you are... So already companies are absorbing that risk without really thinking about it. And so they should be proactively, instead of waiting for additional AI legislation, they should already be on top of this saying, hey, we need to know what's going on. Chad: We've talked about this, for... Shit. Years now with AI. It scales decision making. Joel: That's right. Chad: It scales bad decision making. It's not that humans haven't been making bad decisions. We have. It's not that humans haven't been biased. Oh, we're so biased. But now the AI is taking that bias behavioral data, some of those decisions some of the "predictors" that some of these companies use, and it's scaling it. So now if you are a company who got away with bias and all those things before, this is going to make all of that scale, and it's gonna make it much easier to identify who's fucking around. Guru Sethupathy: 100%. I think you're right on both of those accounts, it's much easier to scale bad biases and bad decision making. At the same time, it's also gonna be easier to sue. And I think that's where you were going with your second point, if I understood that correctly, in that it, you know exactly where the problem is. It's in that... [overlapping conversation] Chad: It'll be easier to see though, because it's gonna be the problem's not gonna be small because the scale was small. Guru Sethupathy: Exactly. Chad: Scale's gonna be much larger. So therefore the problem's gonna grow with the scale, and you're gonna... It's gonna be much easier to identify. So therefore you're gonna have more people pointing and saying, oh, look, there's a lawsuit. Guru Sethupathy: But I think all of that is true. I think you're more likely more... It's more gonna be more easy to sue, more easy to have a lawsuit. At the same time though, let me say, it's gonna be easier to monitor as well. Because that's what I'm gonna... My point being. When you have 50 different recruiters, and three of them aren't entering the data in the system, and six others, are... You know what I mean? It's just hard to know what's going on. [laughter] But with the model in place, it's actually easy to monitor and you can automate the monitoring. And the thing is, this has been going on for a while. I talked to you about Capital... We come from Capital One, Capital One monitors its models all constantly. It's not hard. And so HR just needs to build these practices in. They just need to have that mindset adjustment and say, hey, look, we're starting to become a technology domain, a data-driven domain. We need to then along with that, build these other practices in place. It's easier to monitor a model than it is 50 humans. Joel: Remote work, obviously in the last few years has become, incredibly popular. And we've seen sites that are platforms for managing, a diverse global workforce. The remotes, the oysters, the deals, etcetera. It seems to me recruiting on a global basis would open your company up to a lot of risk in terms of AI hiring. Going back to these different laws in different countries and states and all over the map. How confident are you that these platforms are covering companies' asses? Do you feel like companies are reluctant to go out on a global scale because of the risk? I'm just curious your thoughts on the global, state of things in AI recruiting. Guru Sethupathy: When you were talking about that made me just think of this thing that got passed in India. I don't know if you guys saw this recently, but any company that uses AI in India for anything has to get a federal approval, which is crazy to think about. Imagine something that passing here, it wouldn't. But that's a pretty onerous thing. So to your point, Joel, now, like, hey, what if you are using... What if you're a multinational company and you use AI in your hiring practices just generally. And India is one of your places. And wait a second now for India, I gotta go get special approval. And then from, so you're, so this is the thing that's gonna be hard to manage. It's like, and this is what I meant by like, you're gonna have to hire some policy folks, some lobbyists, you're gonna probably hire legal folks, compliance. You're gonna start to have this ecosystem of people to think about how these things affect you. And so that's gonna be a bit of a challenge. I totally agree. Chad: So if I'm a company, I'm out there, this is scaring the shit out of me. Go figure. I'm seeing, Workday, I'm seeing CVS, I'm seeing all these big brands that are getting thrown out all over the place. Is it feasible that I can do my business without even using AI? Especially when we're talking about hiring in a very competitive market? Guru Sethupathy: For a short time. For today, for tomorrow, for this next month, for this next year. And so at the end of the day, then it comes to how forward thinking are CHROs is what it comes down to. And if you are a short term operational CHRO, you're like, hey, that's not my problem. We're gonna be fine for this year. I'm focused on this year, I'm focused on this quarter, I gotta cut cost this quarter. So there's different types of CHROs that I've come across Chad, the ones that are strategic, visionary, forward thinking, absolutely not. They know AI. In fact, there's so many opportunities in HR. HR is the perfect domain, actually. There's so many opportunities to use Gen AI capabilities, natural language processing capabilities, predictive analytics capabilities. Guru Sethupathy: I was talking to a company the other day where they still have each recruiter manually at least check the resumes that come in. And apparently a 100,000 resume applicants last year. And I was just shocked. I'm like, really, in 2024, you know what I mean? That's just super inefficient. You can't compete, doing that. Again, you can do it for next week, you can do it for next quarter, but in 2025, 2026, how are you holding your cost down? How are you innovating? Things like, your employees, every single employee has a question about, I remember I had so many questions around vacation days, con policies, all of that stuff. You can automate all of that. There's so many opportunities. And this is, I think, some of the fun part of the conversation. Like, hey, how can you use AI to create value in HR? And there's really a lot of opportunities. So for the ones, the companies and the CHROs that are forward thinking, they're absolutely not gonna shy away from it. Joel: I keep coming back to your different... States different laws and how disparate this gets. Just curious about your industry. Typically, there's a Coke and a Pepsi, and then a bunch of Fantas and Dr. Peppers. Where does this go? Do we have local accountants where people are AI regulation experts in your local market? And it's a few people your State Farm agent. Is it a big... Are there a couple big players? And it's all software and we know all the answers in all the states in real time. Is it both of those things? How do you think this industry evolves from one of the pioneers? Guru Sethupathy: I think there's some parallels to... If you think about it, there's already compliance in HR related to hiring. Put aside AI and bias. I'm not talking about that. But when you hire, if I go hire in Canada, if I go hire in Europe, if I go hire in Asia, there are local laws that I have to follow to do that hiring. Compliance, all this stuff from how you interact with them to how you onboard them, the contracts, the pay, the salary, the level, all that stuff. And so you have these companies, payroll companies, that's how they got started. Was like, hey, you're gonna go hire over there, we'll help you. We'll deal with all the compliance. We'll take care of all that for you. And so in a sense, that's a little bit of what we're trying to do and others are gonna try to do as well, which is like, hey, we are going to become experts. One of the things we're partnering with law firms, for instance. And so we're gonna be experts on that stuff and take that off your plate and that's what, a Deel does. Or that's what a Dayforce. They take that off of your plate. And I think you're gonna see a little bit of that model, when it comes to AI regulations Joel. Chad: So in talking to our friend, a friend of the show, EEOC commissioner Sonderling, he had mentioned over a year ago that there's more than likely going to be an ISO around this, the international organization for standardizations. More than likely that's gonna be a standardization that everybody can flow into. So it's not so chaotic. And it seems we're on our way there. Can you talk about that a little bit? Guru Sethupathy: I can. I agree and I disagree. And so where I agree is, yeah, there's gonna be a standard, and it's here. I saw 42,001 was released late last year. Now it's still I think in the process of like, there could be some, amendments, some revisions and that thing. And there's still a process to be worked through there, but realize there's a difference between market standards and regulations. A market standard is great. It tells you that your product has a certain level of quality, certain level of certification that you can't take for granted. A regulation is still, like, I still got, even if I have the standard, I still gotta go satisfy that regulation if I don't wanna get fined. If I don't wanna get... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Doesn't this make it easier for regulators though, to be able to take a look at a standard and say, okay, that's the standard we're gonna get behind that. You have to do that. So it makes it much easier for a bunch of individuals, a bunch of 80-year-old individuals who they don't know a smartphone, they've got a jitterbug phone. They don't have a smartphone. So at the end of the day, is this not a smart way to just say, oh, wait a minute, those guys seem to have their shit pulled together. Let's just go ahead and jump on that train. Guru Sethupathy: There's absolutely truth to that. And in fact, a lot of the private sector companies are pushing for that. They're saying, hey guys, White House, whatever, let's develop market standards. Let's have public private partnership. Let's work together and let's develop these standards and let those standards be the things that provide the common ground around this stuff. And there's some truth to that. If you look at the White House EEO, again, the White House... What the EEO says is they put the NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology, in charge of developing some of those standards. So if you look at it in the US, that's our approach. Now, look, the states at the end of the day are gonna do their own thing. So the White House can't govern that. But from a White House perspective, I do think, other than things related to national security, which are very important. And they own the domain around that. But otherwise they, that's what they're saying, Chad. They're saying, hey, let's this, let's build some standards. NIST, you kind of, we give you power to run with this, work with private sector, work with others, and develop standards and let's go with that. So I think there's absolutely some truth to that. Joel: That is Guru Sethupathy. Everybody... Chad: There he is. Joel: Guru, for our listeners that want to know more about you, maybe they can keep up with some of this stuff. Where would you send them to learn more? Guru Sethupathy: Couple sources, follow me on LinkedIn, follow FairNow on LinkedIn. We're both... Myself, my account, FairNow's account. We're publishing a lot on these topics whenever there is, whether it's a lawsuit, whether there's a company that put out something that we think we disagree with or agree with, or laws and legislations as we've been talking about, we'll be posting on there. So please follow us as well as our website. So we have a whole area where we talk specifically about legislations, about market standards, and we talk about what's coming down the pipe and what's in these things. The EU AI Act. We have a whole page on who's affected, what's gonna happen and all that stuff. So between those two spaces, you should be able to learn a lot. Joel: Long story short, Guru's a busy guy. [laughter] Chad: The Chad and Cheese podcast has a bat phone to Guru, okay? So you can always listen to us. But yes, definitely go to FairNow. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. Thanks for keeping us up to Speed Guru. This is a complicated issue, Chad, that's another one in the can. We out? Chad: We out. [applause] Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chat, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue nacho, pepper Jack, Swiss, so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who. We try to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese, is so weird. We out.

Join us on "The Chad and Cheese Podcast" for a lively and enlightening conversation with Natalie Stones, the founder of Talent Collective. In this episode, titled "Unleashing Talent: The Natalie Stones Interview," we delve into Natalie's passion for talent acquisition, her journey from corporate recruiting to building a thriving community for women in recruiting, and her adventures in fractional recruiting. Natalie shares her insights on AI in recruiting, the challenges of unbiased hiring, and the current trends in talent acquisition. We also discuss the changing landscape of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, the rise of fractional work and its impact on women, and the evolving dynamics of the workforce post-pandemic. Don't miss Natalie's candid thoughts on LinkedIn and the role of recruiting technology in shaping the future of talent acquisition. Tune in for an episode packed with humor, snark, and thought-provoking discussions that redefine the world of recruiting. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It is Bob Hope's favorite podcast, AKA, The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joined as always, the Woodstock to my Snoopy, Chad Sowash is on the house. We are live at TA Week at the Qualifi booth... Chad: Yes. Joel: And we are giddy to welcome Natalie Stones. There's an "S" at the end like Rolling... Natalie Stones: Rolling Stones? Joel: Founder at Talent Collective. Natalie, welcome to the podcast. Natalie Stones: Thank you so much. Good morning. Joel: So... Chad: Good morning. Joel: A lot Of our listeners don't know who you are. Chad: Oh, what? Joel: Give us a Twitter bio about what makes Natalie tick. Natalie Stones: Well, what makes me tick is talent acquisition. Chad: Oh stop it. Intro: I live it, I breathe it... [laughter] Joel: Come on. We want poetry reading. We want walks on the beach... Natalie Stones: Wine tasting is definitely, yeah. Chad: Oh, there it is. Okay. Intro: Red or White? Natalie Stones: Red. Joel: Okay. Chad: There we go. Natalie Stones: Love me some Pinot Noir... Joel: Oh yes. Natalie Stones: I live in San Francisco, Napa wine country, all that thing. But who am I? I am a woman in recruiting. I've been doing it for about 20 years both agency side and in-house corporate recruiting, head-of-talent roles. And now I run a community for women, and I do fractional recruiting. And I get to do what I want, when I want. Chad: [chuckle] "I get to do what I want. She does what she wants." [laughter] [overlapping conversation] Natalie Stones: And create it how I want it. Joel: Is that a song from the '90s? Chad: I love it. [laughter] Joel: Somewhere in there. Natalie Stones: You said Twitter bio. Like, what can I fit in that short amount of time? Chad: Well you just did, so you're good. That's very good. That's very good. Natalie Stones: Done. Period. Chad: Let's talk about that. So in recruiting and now you have built this community, you're building this community. It's not built. You've got much to do, right? Natalie Stones: Yes. Yeah. Chad: How did you go from one to the next? How do you go from recruiting, corporate recruiting, to building a community? And why? Give me the why first. Why did you think this was necessary? Joel: What's your why? Chad: What's your why? [laughter] Natalie Stones: Two very specific reasons. I don't know how crass I can be on this, or if I can say bad words. [overlapping conversation] Chad: Very, yeah, of course. Yeah. Joel: As nasty as you want to be. We're like the two live crew of recruiting podcasts. [laughter] Natalie Stones: Number one, I was so fucking tired of being laid off. In the past three years I was laid off twice, and I was like, "Man, how... " This economy's just getting worse and worse and worse. I need a community. I need more people to connect with that are in TA. Hopefully that'll help me find my next job. I couldn't find the right conferences to go to where I didn't feel like, "Okay, TA's just a subset of HR." Chad: So everybody says LinkedIn's the answer. LinkedIn's not the answer. Natalie Stones: No. [laughter] Natalie Stones: I don't use LinkedIn anymore. Chad: Okay. Okay. Natalie Stones: Actually I use RecruitBot, right behind us here. So a little plug for RecruitBot. So we wanted to create something that didn't exist for ourselves, opportunities to network, get back out there post-COVID. We wanted programming that was very hyper-specific to... Chad: Yes. Natalie Stones: Recruiting, recruiting operations. We wanted to geek out about it all day. And then we wanted to create more mentorship opportunities and ways for people to collaborate. So... Chad: When you say "we," you mean women? Natalie Stones: Yes. My two co-founders and I... Chad: Yes. Natalie Stones: We were very passionate about it. But we created it specifically for women... Chad: Yes. Natalie Stones: Women+, so those who identify. But the second reason we started it is because there's so many freaking communities out there that are ran by men. No offense, we love them. [laughter] Natalie Stones: They are our male allies. They are a part of our community as speakers, panelists, contributors, partners. So they definitely play an important part in what we do. But when you look at all of the other communities side-by-side, I can't really find one that is... Joel: What's the mission of the organization? Natalie Stones: To empower, advance, and connect women in talent acquisition specifically... Joel: Okay. Natalie Stones: And we do that in the three different ways: Networking, professional development, and the mentorship. Joel: And what's membership numbers? Is there a threshold to get into the organization? Talk about that. Natalie Stones: We launched June of last year. So we're in month seven. In the Bay Area, we started as a beta test, and we now are at a little over 270 members globally, with the most being in California right now 'cause that's where we are, and then the other half across the US. And we have since launched other local communities, San Francisco, LA, Seattle. We have Orange County tomorrow. And then I'll tell you about the other ones later. But really the threshold there isn't. It's just you're a woman, and you're in talent acquisition. Joel: And benefits are? Natalie Stones: So you get the opportunity to be a part of our circle platform, bunch of resources, partner discounts. We have four to five workshops a month. We have in-person networking events, in-person speaker events. We have our partner experiences. Last night we hosted a TA leader dinner. We have boardroom peer groups, and we have mentorship programs. And that's part of our standard; we call it our "essential membership." But we also have an executive level 1. So if you're a director-level and above, then you get the amplified experiences, different exclusive events that you get invited to. Chad: What if you're on the track to be one of those, right? Because not everybody is a director; not everybody, but they could aspire to be that one day. Are there tracks to be able to get there? And I know you guys are really early in the inception. Natalie Stones: Yes, we will do that. Thank you for the idea. [laughter] Natalie Stones: No, we don't have formal tracks yet. But as part of our essential membership, we have recruiting coordinators that are in there, sourcers... And we make sure to curate the virtual experiences to make sure that it's content that could be relevant. Throughout the month, we want there to be a topic that is RecOps-focused, a staffing topic for our agency people... Chad: Right. Natalie Stones: Something that's for more junior talent, and then something that's just more of a generalist topic. So no formal track, but we try to make sure we have something for everybody throughout the month. [overlapping conversation] Chad: Okay. So how are you guys monetizing to be able to feed this? Because this is gonna take a lot of fuel to be able to get enrolled. Joel: And are you looking to be a 501-C-3 or another... Natalie Stones: Yes. Joel: Oh, okay. Natalie Stones: Yeah, we are. We're actually in the process of filing all of that right now. But early on we made a first-time founder mistake, and we started [chuckle] hosting our in-person events with the light membership dues that we had. Every single time we were running negative. So we're like, "Okay, we can't do this," but we still need to have these experiences. So we're monetizing by having partnerships with other recruiting technology companies, recruiting firms, HR tech. And so they help us co-host these events. Other things that we're gonna do is we have a partner directory. So any of these partners that wanna be featured on our platform, they pay a cost to be on the platform. We also are co-writing content with people. So mostly right now is sponsors and partners, and content collaboration. Chad: Gotcha, gotcha. Natalie Stones: In the early days, but more to come on that. Joel: In terms of conversations that the group is having, what's trending? What's the hot topics? Natalie Stones: What do you think it is? Chad: Pay equity. Pay equity. Joel: That's a trap question... [laughter] Joel: That I'm not touching whatsoever. Natalie Stones: As a non-woman in recruiting, what do you think it is? [laughter] Yeah, pay equity is one... Chad: Yeah? Natalie Stones: But it's actually not the most common one. Chad: What about leadership positions? I mean, what? Is it like 8% of Fortune 500 companies have a female CEO? Natalie Stones: Yeah. Chad: I mean, there are plenty of topics that we could talk about that should be burning topics, which... [overlapping conversation] Joel: But she's on the inside. Chad: Yes, exactly. Joel: She knows what they are. [laughter] Chad: I know, which is... Joel: And she's gonna reveal them now. Natalie Stones: Yeah. It's really like... [chuckle] Well okay, number one, is AI in recruiting. Everybody's in a frenzy about that. What is it about... Chad: Which is great from a vendor standpoint, because you can get a lot of vendors to be able to get into this community. Right? And then, again, this is an educational scenario. I mean, this is good on both sides for vendors to be able to help educate, but also for, obviously, the community to learn. Natalie Stones: The value for us in having these partners is less about the financial donation. It's about bringing the innovation to the community so that they are constantly in the know of all the technology, the innovation. 'Cause not every tool is right for every company or stage or size or person. And so having these innovative conversations and topics, is big. So AI is one. At the leadership level, they're talking more about, how do we strategically in the future hire back TA teams? Will we ever need full-time recruiting teams again? Or what about fractional? Fractional recruiting is a thing. Could there be a benefit to scaling up and down your recruiting team as you need it, as your business grows? Seasonality? So that's actually a big, big one right now. Chad: You sound like an RPO right now. [laughter] Natalie Stones: Well, we do also have Talent Refinery, which is a fractional recruiting firm. So a little plug for that on the side. But other things, yes, pay equity is a very important one. And another one, I think we're just at the most basic level right now, where just so many of our members are laid off because of the economy. We're really talking about how to create more opportunities for each other, how to partner on roles, how to make introductions to get a role to pick up a project. So a lot of it is about work and staying relevant as a recruiter right now... Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: But more will come, the more that we have more female voices and passionate things that they're excited about talking about. Joel: So I didn't answer your question, but I'm gonna tell you what I'm surprised that you didn't say in your answer. Chad and I almost weekly or at least monthly, talk about the demise of DEI, whether it's companies pulling back funding, laying off leaders, in the DEI movement. You didn't say any of that in terms of a concern with your members. But what are your thoughts on the trend of MeToo, Black Lives Matter, George Floyd? "We're going the right direction, it looks like we've backed up." Your thoughts? Natalie Stones: So what we see in recruiting is, it was like this trend and this wave. And then once everyone was doing it, then how does anyone remain relevant with their DEI initiatives without making it very specific thing that we're trying to put out there? Like having good perks and benefits, and everybody's having the snacks and the dogs at the office. Everybody's now doing the same thing, so how does anyone really diversify themselves as a DEI employer of choice? So I think what you're seeing is a lot of companies now are, if you aren't really going to make a concerted effort to continue to maintain DEI initiatives, or if you were just doing it as a trending initiative, then stop. Don't do it anymore. Because then you're not being authentic with it, and it's just becoming a thing to do because everyone else is doing it. So I think that's why you see some companies backing up with it, because they don't wanna be out there as, "Okay, we're doing what everyone else is doing." Instead, let's just focus on DEI initiatives that are important to us without having to make it a marketing-campaign type of thing. So I don't think it's going away. I think the buzz around it is demising a little bit, because it became a very big marketing thing. Chad: So to kinda like fight back a little bit on that one... Natalie Stones: Yeah. Let's fight. Chad: Before when there were marketing budgets, right? There were marketing budgets. They weren't diversity budgets, right? Natalie Stones: Yes. Chad: You had CDOs that were put in place that had no staff, they had no budget. Right? Now, this is when people were "focused" on it, right? To actually do the right thing. Which we all know is bullshit in many cases. Facebook spending millions of dollars and getting almost a bump. At the end of the day, if there's no pressure, then nothing happens. Right? So I agree with you a hundred percent. There was a smoke screen out there for years that we called DEI. Natalie Stones: Yes. Chad: And we put people in place that had no power, that had no resources. But the question is, how do we pivot into something that does matter, it is meaningful, without having an emphasis on it at all? Natalie Stones: I think what we're seeing evolve from that is unbiased hiring, right? How do we just unbiasedly consider all talent based on just purely skills and qualifications? Less on, okay, do these hires tick this box based on this diversity category? Like in my last role, we were an agency, and we really focused on unbiased hiring, but we would get a lot of clients that would say, "We only wanna hire women, so only send us panels of people that are women or a certain ethnicity," so on and so forth. And we said, "We don't do that," because we feel that's reverse diversity. Well, what about the other people that don't meet that category that are qualified for your role? So instead, we will go through an unbiased exercise. We'll present you the right talent panel, and you can choose who you want. So I think what we're seeing more, at least within our community, is how do we just create an unbiased hiring experience that could help amplify diversity without focusing on, "We need to get X more amount of whatever category that is?" I hope that answers your question. Chad: It does, but it's really hard because a lot of, let's say for instance, females who wanna be CEOs. Natalie Stones: Yeah. Chad: They don't have the standard requirements. Right? So therefore they're not qualified, 'cause they're not getting the opportunities. Right? And if you take a look at some of the statistics, to be able to get where we need to be with parity, it's gonna take 75 years. Do you think we have that long? I don't. So how do we... Natalie Stones: I think I'll be dead by then. Chad: Yeah. I know I will be. But at the end of the day, how do we make this happen without being too crazy, reverse discrimination, discrimination, whatever it is... Problem is, we're not fixing what's been broke. How do we fix that? And in your community, I would say, could be a good cornerstone to some of this. Natalie Stones: Yes. Yeah. I think, like you guys were saying, you're trying to help amplify female voices. So I can only speak to the female perspective. But having allies and people that are not from our diverse category, helping advocate for us and amplify our voices, making the right introductions, is kind of the only best right answer that I have right now. But we're trying to do everything we can to elevate the confidence level of women in recruiting specifically, trying to give them as much professional development opportunity to help them grow. And then creating that mentorship so that maybe they're getting access to more of those connections. So that's the only best solution that I have right now. Joel: Clearly no easy answer to that question. Natalie Stones: No. Chad: No. If it was easy, we would have this get fixed already, right? Yeah. [overlapping conversation] Natalie Stones: It would already be done. Yeah. Joel: I'm gonna give you another one that I'm surprised you didn't bring up in terms of trending... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Here we go again. Joel: Trending topics. So the pandemic, we know, is an imbalance of stress on women, which typically the burden of childcare goes to them. And the work-from-home movement seemed to be something that was a very big positive for women. Natalie Stones: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You see more and more stories about return to office, get back to work, and that impacting women in a negative way for sure. Is that being discussed? Your thoughts on work-from-home and companies that maybe don't consider... Run by men. [laughter] Joel: Consider the impact on women, in return to the office. Is that a topic that you guys discuss or have a opinion on? Natalie Stones: It is. And it's more like the TA leaders trying to really have concerted conversations with their stakeholders in their companies, to help them understand, really good talent is gonna be self-accountable at home, man, woman, otherwise. And so why can't we continue to have work from home? We do talk about the impact that it has on women, specifically because myself and Krista, we are single moms, and we run two businesses, and the way that we've created the opportunity for ourselves is creating our own business. Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: But not everybody can do that. Not everybody has the right access, community support, financial means, whatever. And so we really try to have conversations about, how do you advocate for yourself to push back, and/or not accept opportunities just purely because you like the company or whatnot? But does that meet your personal means? Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: I actually heard last night, someone was telling me that there's this new, I don't know if it's a movement, but there's this new concept of both parents going part-time. Let's say you're not a single parent. Both parents working part-time. Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: So that no one is off-balanced on the burden of work or the burden of at home. So they're trying to create these equal opportunities, where instead of one person not working and losing one full salary, how do we both work part-time to support the family and support your career? So I was like, "Hmm, interesting." First time I heard that. [overlapping conversation] Joel: I heard a story this week on the rise of part-time jobs. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And maybe that syncs up with what she's saying. [overlapping conversation] Natalie Stones: I need to look into that. Chad: So try working part-time and living in San Diego. [laughter] Natalie Stones: You'll be at the beach all the time. Joel: Or anywhere in California... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Not to mention... I mean, you have... I mean, here in the US. I think that's a little bit easier in Europe, because they have healthcare. Here, the way it's tied to a full-time position, right? So those are great ideas. But again, I think for some people who have the means to be able to do that, they can do that. But unfortunately, the ones who can't, they just, they don't have the availability to keep a roof over their head, food in their kid's mouths, so yeah. Natalie Stones: Yeah. The one thing that was part of that topic was, then you do away with the entire daycare expense. So that helps that family save on the cost of that. But kind of to finish answering your comment on that, what we actually are discussing the most is, so many women want to be their own decision makers. They wanna be their own bosses. They wanna have creative control of the work that they do. So many of them in our community are becoming fractional. They just wanna be solopreneurs, have a lifestyle business enough to maintain the life that they want, but still getting to pick-and-choose like standing up their own business so they become their own boss, pick and choosing the types of work that they work on... Chad: Yeah. Natalie Stones: And so they're amplifying themselves by taking it into their own hands. Chad: It's almost like gigs. You're fractional... Yeah, you're working gigs. Yeah. Natalie Stones: Yep. Joel: Yeah. Curious about... We're here at TA Week, we're in the exhibit hall, and there are a lot of companies on the vendor side who preach unbiased recruiting. You see sites like Fairygodboss or InHerSight that are specifically for women. You mentioned quitting LinkedIn, so feel free to expound upon that. [laughter] Joel: Are vendors, in your perspective, getting it right? Are they moving in the right direction? Or is a lot of false promises that you're seeing? Natalie Stones: I think vendors are getting it right. I think where the hesitation is, is actually on the user. Because we are still in an era where there's a variety of different generations that are used to hiring a certain way. "Please email me over the resumes. I wanna look at the resumes." And then they scroll the bottom to see, when did they graduate, or the gaps, or whatever. And so while the vendors are doing a great job to create the unbiased user experience, I think there's still a lot of resistance to it. And so there's not as much adoption as we would hope, because they still... Their brain, their muscle memories still wired to like, "I wanna see it all, I wanna know who this candidate is," and then they make their biased impressions. Chad: Well, I think you take a look at the tech stacks that are being built today. And I would say in the very near future, they're not gonna have that opportunity. The amount of scale that we see today with regards to the amount of people who can apply, and then the new apply bots that are out there, there have to be technologies that go ahead and filter out according to the requirements of the job. Right? And then allow that recruiter at some point to actually have access. So hopefully we're getting past that. And not to mention, a lot of those recruiters who've been doing the old school 1990s way of recruiting, they're not gonna last. They're gonna be gone. And the new breed will definitely take over. Natalie Stones: Not only based on generationally they're gonna be working out of the workforce, but they will also maybe not become as relevant, to your point. Chad: Yes. Natalie Stones: I feel that same way about AI. I don't think AI is going to replace recruiters, but the recruiters that don't choose to adopt that into their effective processes will become kind of dismal. Joel: I'm sorry... Natalie Stones: That's my take. [overlapping conversation] Joel: I tried to serve it up, but LinkedIn, what's up? [laughter] Joel: Is it a... Why? Natalie Stones: It's so damn expensive. Chad: Okay, all right. Natalie Stones: Gosh, you can't ever get out of the contracts. Why do I need to pay 2500... I don't even know what it costs anymore. For a license, when I can still find these same people on my own? So I'll give another plug for RecruitBot. I work on a free LinkedIn account. I don't even have to use it. They have all of the content that you can source in there. The AI will then tee up additional candidates based on how you're qualifying them. I can then put them through my emails campaign. There's a CRM piece, and then I can status them with kind of the ATS. Why do I never need to go outside? [overlapping conversation] Joel: I was like I'm morally opposed to the... Natalie Stones: I mean, sure. Joel: The Death Star that is LinkedIn, so... [laughter] [overlapping conversation] Natalie Stones: Yeah, the... Chad: There's that, there's that. Joel: So yeah. Price... Natalie Stones: The Death Star, yeah. Joel: Pricing's a little less sexy. But it is an answer that a lot of people give us. Natalie, thanks for hanging out with us today. Natalie Stones: Thank you. Joel: For our listeners that wanna know more about you and the organization, where do you send them? Natalie Stones: To talentcollective.community. That's our website. Chad: There you have it. Joel: Dot-community? That might be the first dot-community on the podcast. Natalie Stones: Yeah. It was available so I took it. Joel: We appreciate that. Chad: Dot-community. Joel: Dot-community... Natalie Stones: Exactly. So spell it all out. Joel: Slash-UK-dot-co or something. [laughter] Joel: Chad, another one in the can. Progress baby, we out. Chad: We out. Natalie Stones: Thank you. Outro: Well, thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast. With Chad. With Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses, and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grub cheese. It's so weird. We out.

The last time Chad & Cheese welcomed Jeff "The Job Board Doctor" Chasey-Dickens to the podcast, chaos ensued as Cheese's Four Horsemen of the job board apocalypse rode wild in a healthy debate on the future of job boards. This time, the doc brings his own flavor of death and destruction he sees for the job board industry, dubbed Unholy Trinity. Three isn't as much as four, but the despair is no less frightening. If you're a job board owner or employee, it's a must listen.

As usual, this week, Chad & Cheese dive into the latest news and developments in the HR and technology sectors, featuring updates on Deel, Klarna's AI integration, Google's data deal with Stack Overflow, and lots more. Drink it in: DEEL's Acquisition Spree: We start with Deel, the HR startup making waves with its recent acquisition of African-based PaySpace, following last week's purchase of Zavvy. This marks Deel's largest acquisition yet, as it aims to strengthen its presence in Africa and reach $500M in annual recurring revenue, with plans for an IPO in 2025/2026. ZipRecruiter and Appcast's Pricing Changes: While Deel celebrates its growth, others like ZipRecruiter are facing scrutiny for a nearly 74% price hike without clear additional value. Meanwhile, Appcast is transitioning its business model away from supporting customers below the $20K/mo. spend, raising questions about its strategy and impact on agencies. Klarna's Efficiency with AI: Klarna's partnership with OpenAI has resulted in significant efficiency improvements, with its chatbot managing two-thirds of customer service chats in 23 markets and 35 languages. The integration is expected to increase profits by $40 million in 2024, raising questions about the impact on recruiting. Google's Data Deal with Stack Overflow: Google's Gemini chatbot will now utilize Stack Overflow's Q&A for coding assistance, marking Stack Overflow's first customer for paid access to content used to train AI chatbots. This deal could have significant commercial implications for Stack Overflow. Indeed's Missteps: Finally, we touch on Indeed's recent controversies, including a disappointing Willy Wonka chocolate factory experience and a racist job ad that was posted on the platform. These incidents raise questions about Indeed's oversight and use of AI in job postings. It's enough to make you forget politics, global conflict and the increase in prices at Chipotle. You're welcome. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who are not quite ready to start cutting interest rates. What's up kids? You are listening to the Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel on the road again Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad flock off Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, it's Deal's world, we're all just renting space. Indeed's new Oompa-Loompa job search category. Let's do this. It's been a week, Chad. It's been a week. Chad: It doesn't feel like... Joel: I can use some Vegas time. I don't know about you. Chad: Yeah, I definitely feel some Vegas time. Yes. Vegas. Joel: You need Europe soon. I could... Like you're almost on peak, ready to get the hell out of the US. Chad: Yeah. This, I mean, it's a obviously an election year. That makes it worse. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, yeah. 'Cause all of the stupidity just gets compounded and it's just like, oh, gimme the fuck. Cow gone. Take me away. Get me the fuck outta here. [laughter] Joel: So this just drops it out, if you saw this. Netflix is going to air a boxing match. Have you seen this? Chad: Uh-uh. Joel: Any guesses on who's fighting? Chad: I have no clue. I have no clue. Joel: All right. Old guy, Mike Tyson. Chad: Yes. Okay. Joel: Versus Jake Paul in a boxing match. Live on Netflix. I, for one am here for it. I, for one. [laughter] Chad: So this is not like a premium, you have to pay additional for it. Is that what I'm hearing? Joel: If you have Netflix... Chad: Okay. Joel: You can... It's on. And, to me, this is the future of like live events because anyone in the world that has Netflix can watch it. It may be 4:00 in the morning in Malaysia or whatever, but when it airs, you don't need the local CBS, you know, affiliate. You can watch it anywhere. And for me, like YouTube and Netflix are probably the only two companies that have like a global anyone-can-watch-when-it's-on thing. And I think this is where, you know, sports and live events are going. So kudos to Netflix. I think it's pretty cool. I know, I'm gonna watch. And you'll probably watch too. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And knowing our listeners, they're all gonna watch as well. Chad: Okay. So I remember Flat Blast from the past. I remember, I think it was 1990. It had to been, 1990 when Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson. I was on the beach in Panama going through scuba diver training. Joel: Scuba diving. Chad: Scuba diver, training and it was a... I can remember it so vividly, 'cause I remember watching Mike Tyson up through high school, just batter and obliterate motherfuckers. And this guy comes outta nowhere from Columbus, Ohio and takes down Mike Tyson. I just thought that that was amazing. Joel: Tyson was the most awesome, until that moment, the most awesome boxer I had ever seen. Chad: Yeah. If you wanna see the best fight of all time, go watch Hagler, Hearns. That was probably the best, the best, I think two or three rounds of a fight [laughter] that you can get. Joel: Yeah. There's some good ones. There's some great, great boxing matches. Oh, we're so goddamn old. Chad: Oh, we are. Here we go. I'm going. I'm going. I'm gone. I gotta do this. I gotta do it. Are we ready? Joel: I'm ready. Chad: Okay. So this is a shout out to the dumb ass of the week after last week's idiot CEO at Wendy's pitched surge pricing. I mean, dynamic food pricing. This week eight... WK Kellogg's, CEO, Gary Pilnick earns the dumb ass of the weak monitor. Just watch. Speaker 4: When you think about our consumer under pressure, there's things that we could do, but most importantly, what this category could do, the cereal category has always been quite affordable, and it tends to be a great destination when consumers are under pressure. So some of the things that we're doing is first messaging. We gotta reach the consumer where they are. So we're advertising about cereal for dinner. If you think about the cost of cereal for a family versus what they might otherwise do, that's gonna be much more affordable. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad: So, while CEOs, boards and c-suite wages have skyrocketed, and people actually doing the fucking work, can't keep up with their bills, the dumb ass of the week, Gary here sees a perfect, a perfect let 'em eat cake moments. Right? Let 'em eat cereal. I mean, how fucking tone-deaf is that? While that motherfucker's having Wagyu beef three times a damn day, [laughter] it's okay that the peasant labor class is having to, you know, have his version of gruel for dinner. I just, it, this is happening every single week. And [laughter] I just don't get it, man. Joel: Where are the PR firms coming from that are advising these food companies, look... Chad: Fired, I hope. Joel: I mean, you know, I gave a better answer, I think than probably the most PR firms is like, they should have... The Wendy's thing should have been, we're gonna have pricing higher at lunchtime, but we're gonna give it back to the workers because that's when they worked the hard. Chad: They didn't intend for that, though. Joel: That would've been a great spin, right? For this move. Chad: If it's true. Joel: This move reminded me of, and as we're dating ourselves, you've obviously seen the movie Mr. Mom. Chad: Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. Joel: So, Mr. Mom, Teri Garr gets a job, which back in the day, that was, that was crazy that a woman could have an executive job. And they're selling tuna, and her thing is like, look, times are hard, we're gonna reduce the price of tuna, and when things get better, we'll go back to our old prices. But for now, we're in this together. You remember this, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: You've seen this movie. He gets little flags out and everything. Like Mr. Mom would've been a better guide for this decision than any PR firm in New York would've been. Chad: Tone deaf. Joel: And they do the, it's just like, it's such a slam dunk to compare this, to let them eat cake, that I can't believe these people with MBAs and degrees from Ivy Leagues don't put those pieces together and think this is probably a dumb thing to say. Chad: They're living an entirely different life than the rest of the world. That's the problem. Joel: Yeah. They're tone deaf. Chad: That's the problem. They're in the ivory tower, they're seeing the sunshine, you know, all that other fun stuff. And then there are the peasants in the fucking mud. And they're like... Joel: You know this fucker hasn't eaten a Froot Loop in his life, and he's telling us to eat it for dinner. Chad: Yes. Yes. Joel: All right. All right. Okay. My shout out to getting off the food thing, 'cause it's lunchtime as usual. And I'm gonna be really hangry at the end of the show if we keep up with food. So I'm gonna give a shout out to Craigslist. Chad: Okay. Joel: Yeah. That's something we don't, don't do a whole lot on the show, but AIM Group, which we do mention quite a bit on the show, they've been, analyzing Craigslist for 20 years. They go in, they know what the cost of a job posting is because it's really transparent, and they count up how many jobs, and they give a pretty good estimate about where Craigslist is in terms of how much it makes, because Craigslist is this black box. It's a private company. It's just really mysterious. Chad: Yep. Joel: So they try to uncover the dollars around this. So they just came out with their new analysis of Craigslist. So the headline or the subtext is, "Craigslist is still the number one general classified site in the US, but the dinosaur may be slowly headed to extinction." So revenue for Craigslist peaked in 2018... Chad: It's like a billion. Joel: Which is quite a long time from when it started, right? Like, it took a long time to get to a billion. That was 2018 it 'em 2 billion. Today it's about a third of that in terms of revenue, which is still a lot of money. They have about 500 employees. Their expenses is 15%. So they've got a little bit of margin of profit there in what they're doing. Chad: Yeah. Joel: In 2023, they generated the majority of the revenue as they always have with jobs, which was 40%. So that was $58 million in revenue from that. So it is slowly dying. We see a lot of competition, obviously, but it's just fun to occasionally go back to the days of Craigslist launch in '95. It was a newsletter thingy really, before the internet was a thing. Craig Newmark is this weird hippie guy. I went to go to LinkedIn to look at, for information. There's no logo. They have that like building icon like we do, because we don't have a page, that's Craigslist. This is a billion dollar at one point company. No real official LinkedIn page. It's still a mystery, but thanks to AIM Group for making some sense of it. Shout out to them as usual. Chad: Yeah. And I think, I mean, Craigslist, if you take a look at it, is really almost like a microcosm of a lot of these job sites. It was a lifestyle business, it was, and it exploded. They've embraced tech debt. They've, I mean, it's just like's one of those things like simplicity is working, when this thing dies one day, we'll all be millionaires anyway, so who gives a fuck? Right? So it's, to me, yeah, awesome. Joel: Yeah. If my math is right, every employee is bringing in "a million plus dollars". So they're doing all right. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And when they were making a billion dollars, they were doing really, really all right. Yeah, this nonprofit in San Francisco in their Birkenstocks. Chad: Oh, I love it. Joel: And their sweat socks are doing all right. Chad: I love it. Joel: Yeah. Craigslist is still trucking just like Monster and CareerBuilder, they're the walking dead among us and just getting more deader all the time. But I'd like, I like some of the death in my bank account. [laughter] Chad: Joel wanting some job board into his... Joel: Yeah. I want some job board with my Froot Loops. SFX: Shout out. Chad: I've got one. I've got a shout out to Hybrid. Joel: Okay. Bring it. Chad: So I was forwarded a head of talent acquisition job posting on LinkedIn this week from a company named Hybrid. So a TA executive sent it to me and said, hey, here's a job for another talent acquisition, you know, head of talent Acquisition at this company named Hybrid. It was an on-site only job. So... [laughter] Chad: I don't... [laughter] Chad: The irony behind something like that it's like, ooh, Hybrid. Welcome to hybrid. Okay, what days can I go home? You can't. We've got a, you can set up over here. We got a little bunk, you know, we got bunk beds or more time for activities. So yes, shout out to Hybrid for not being so hybrid. Joel: I love it. And I love good irony, which is why I'm wearing my Nikki Haley For President t-shirt today. Chad: Yes. Joel: Speaking of, of dead campaigns, Chad and the walking dead with Craigslist, you probably saw that LinkedIn was down this week, and not that kind of down. Chad: Recruiters went fucking crazy. Joel: They went nuts. They went nuts. So it was, it was down for about an hour and a half. It follows a Meta crash and Instagram, which was, was worse, which also followed an a, an AT&T down downage. So... SFX: That was big. Joel: Bring on the conspiracy theories now, because Twitter's still up and TikTok is still up. So do with that what you will conspiracy theorist. But I felt like the shout out really goes to the people on Twitter and the socials who sounded off about LinkedIn going down. So here's just a, here's just a piece of what some of the, some of the Internet's famous said. So ChristineKK94 said, "LinkedIn bros already rehearsing their, 'I'm honored to be back,' speeches for tomorrow like they just survived a digital apocalypse." Joel: Liam, LiamKillingStad tweeted, "It's crazy how LinkedIn is down, but PornHub is still working. At least that's what I heard." And our friends, our friends at HireEasy, Chad... Chad: Yes. Joel: Did not miss an opportunity to stick it to LinkedIn. They tweeted, "With LinkedIn down, it's the perfect time to embrace modern tech, to message candidates," promoting its AI email generator for recruiters products. So shout out to them for taking an opportunity to market their stuff while LinkedIn was down. Chad: Kick kick 'em. Joel: Kick 'em when they're down, Chad. Chad: Kick 'em when they're down. That's what I'm talking about. Joel: Kick 'em when they're down. Chad: That's what I'm talking about. Joel: That's right. But who's not getting kicked, Chad? Chad: The people who want free stuff, because... Joel: The free stuff. Chad: This week, and I'm gonna let the cat out of the back here, kids. This week we've been going back and forths, semi arguing about what design's gonna go on the front of the t-shirt. Okay? We've been having fun with it. There have been like 20 different iterations. So I gotta give Joel big props for that, 'cause he's been going back and forth with the designers. But our friends at Aaron app. I actually have a sticker on my, that little sloth guy. He's a cute little guy. They're our new t-shirt sponsor. So be looking for those to come out here. And any event, at any event soon. Beer, again, you gotta go to free. You gotta go Chadcheese.com/free. Register for all this stuff. Beer by Aspen Tech Labs. Whiskey by Textkernel. Get two bottles of whiskey. One from Joel, one from me. And then if it's your birthday, you know, you want a little rum from Plum or at least register to win some rum from Plum. SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? Joel: That's right. That's right. You know what that sound means? SFX: I know I can. I can feel it all the way down to my plums. Joel: Oh yeah. So celebrating another trip around the sun, I put in two weeks because we're gonna be in Vegas next week. Chad: Okay. Joel: So the list is a little bit long, so bear with me here. Chad: Okay. Joel: We got Iron Mike Schaeffer from Factory Fix, celebrating... Chad: Nice. Joel: Another birthday. Ashley Collins. Barb Francilo, Michael de Aloya, I always can never pronounce that. Mel Skasdden, Robert Williams, Tracy Morris. Jeffrey Wagner, Beat Michael Mueller. It's Beat or Beat, he's foreign. Chad: Beat. Joel: But it's Michael Jackson, Beat It, Michael Mueller. Bill Fanning, our friend, David Altman, James Cleaver, Ryan Gibbons, Remington Hampton. That's a cool name. John Middleton, Deb Ender Chuck, Leanne Chase, Dean DeCosta. Amanda Hon, Ryan Estes, Bruce Gee, Craig Watson. Chad: Wow. Joel: Down under. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And Kip Kyle Hager is celebrating another trip around the sun. So happy birthday everybody, happy birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Happy birthday. Chad: Oh geez. Well, hopefully we'll see some of those guys as we're at events. As we'd said next week, we're going to be at Transform, but then we're going to Europe. That's right. You know, synthesizers, you know, the Europeans love 'em. We're gonna be at the E-Recruitment Congress in Amsterdam, March 19th, full day in Amsterdam, dedicated to presentations and knowledge around the AI shift in recruitment and technology. We're looking forward to it. I don't know, I think it might actually be full up. I don't, not sure that there are any seats left, but just in case, go to Chadcheese.com/events. You can look to see if you can register there. You might get the last couple of, couple of seats. Joel: And I'd be remiss without mentioning, Chad, that it is the beginning of the month, which means we're gonna get our monthly report from the Feds about the job market, which means it's another episode with the Sasquatch of Statistics. Toby Dayton from Linkup is gonna hook up with you, 'cause I'm gonna be on a plane, I think en route to look over the numbers which come out tomorrow as you're listening to this. So make sure you tune into that. Only on YouTube, youtube.com/atChadCheese. Tune in. Chad: There it is. Joel: And subscribe and like, and share. SFX: Stop it! [music] Joel: All right. Chad, are you ready some, ready for some news from Africa. All right. HR startup Deel is acquiring African-based PaySpace. Its largest acquisition yet, although terms were not disclosed. That's following last week's purchase of Zavvy which we've talked about. PaySpace serves 14,000-plus customers across 44 countries, including major brands. Deel made the deal, get it? Sorry, I... Chad: Again, two weeks in a row. Joel: Yeah, it's too easy. As it aims to strengthen its presence in Africa, while it reaches 500 million, that's up from 400 million in ARR with plans for an IPO in 2025 or '26. Chad, your thoughts on one of the greatest songs, frankly, of all time... Chad: Thank you. Yes. Joel: As well as the news. The news out of Deel. Chad: Never get enough total. Africa is a huge growth market. I mean, not to mention PaySpace services over 14,000 clients in 44 countries across Europe, PaySpace is perfect for Deel, which is a global EOR, employer record company looking to pick up some great tech services anchor to a growth market, and is moving quickly to, that's right, kids, HCM, the human capital management platform side of the house. So when they go from EOR to HCM, that opens up Deel's total addressable market making Deel a global workforce HCM, along with the EOR services that they provide. How many HCM providers actually do EOR today themselves? That's native to their platform? I can't think of any off the top of my head. So I think this is big for Deel. ADP's revenue in 2023 was 18 billion. I mean, I love the subtle flex, not so subtle flex of adding $100 million... Joel: Hundred million. [laughter] Chad: To your ARR because it's just a few weeks ago we were talking about, oh, holy shit, they've got 400 million in ARR, that's pretty fucking awesome. And then a few weeks later they're like, oh, no, I'm sorry about that, [chuckle] yeah, we did, we forgot to carry a one. That's 500 million, right? So subtle flex, but there's great opportunity not just from an EOR standpoint, but opening up and really starting to, you know, take, maybe take some of the, not just the ADP revenues, but the Ripplings. There are tons and tons of big whales out there that don't have quite new tech. I mean, Rippling not one of those. They're pretty new, but there's great opportunity. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. It's big. SFX: What are you doing step bro? Joel: Chad, I'm running out of adjectives for Deel, frankly. You know, the world at large has NVIDIA, these guys might be our NVIDIA at the moment. You mentioned Rippling. There was a whole flock of these, that we talked about extensively, Remote, Oyster, et cetera. Chad: Flockitys, is that what you said? Flockity? [laughter] Joel: Any metric that's publicly available says that Deel is crushing all of these guys. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Rippling may be the closest to it, but, it's just an impressive onslaught of deals and growth that Deel is dropping on our community. I can't wait for the IPO. We're gonna talk about that a lot, obviously. [laughter] Joel: It could be the damn break. I mean, to me, this is like the next Indeed, this is the next Workday, this is the next LinkedIn. Like I think we're gonna be talking about these guys as the 800-pound gorilla in that category. And we're watching it unfold, in front of our eyes. So unless this is some like Enron level bullshit fraud, that's gonna take us all off our... Chad: Don't say that. Don't say that. Joel: No accusations. I'm just saying, unless this is like, what the hell was that? They pulled it on all of us. These guys are crushing it. Just a few numbers for you. In terms of hiring, their sales department is up 170%, in a year. Their project management is up 702% headcount on the year. Their engineering is up 328%, biz dev, the guys that make the sales, the guys, the gals doing the real work, 632% growth in the year. Look at their competition and it's nothing, no. Double digit growth is good. Oyster is shrinking like Oyster, we might as well just disregard. They might be an acquisition for Deel next to get them to a billion ARR, I don't know. Long story short, I'm running out of adjectives. They need to like slow down because I can't keep up. Joel: It's a lot of fun covering these guys. And by the way, who's doing shit in Africa? Real, like, we hardly ever talk about that. Like these guys are so large, these guys are making shit happen so aggressively. Like they're talking Africa, they're gonna talk... Antarctica. They're gonna be growing into, pretty soon. They're gonna be launching Antarctica Deel any minute now, I'm sure. But yeah, this is fun to watch. It's exciting. It's fun. I can't wait till they go public and we have public numbers to see actually what's going on and, really, really have some fun with it. Because talking about ZipRecruiter stock is a little boring, Chad. It's a little bit of a downer in my opinion. Anyway. Chad: Yes. Joel: Speaking of downers, let's go to our next story, 'cause I'm, I'm running out of words for Deel. Chad: Which is, a ZipRecruiter, and this is somewhat of a downer, especially if you are a client of ZipRecruiter. This next one comes from a friend of the show, Tim Sackett, where Tim writes, "Hello Chad and Cheese," no, just kidding... Joel: Hey, dip shits. Chad: ZipRecruiter. Yeah. Hey, assholes. "ZipRecruiter came out today and is asking for price increases for current clients. Our current contract is roughly $92,000. And to keep the exact same products, they now want roughly $160,000. They aren't even a top source for us. So we'll be saying goodbye." So Joel, is this really time for an increase? Joel: Well, if you do it right, anytime can be a time for an increase. [laughter] Chad: Oh, so should they have done surge pricing? Is that what I'm hearing? Joel: Well, I'm surging right now after talking about Deel. There's price increases and there's like desperation price increases. Like, you gotta know how to boil the frog, right? You gotta know how to do it at a degree at a time. Look, Netflix is great at this. Netflix is a great service. But over time, like before you know it, you're not paying 7.99 a month anymore. You're paying 14.99, and you're like, what the hell happened? But it didn't hurt, so like you keep doing it and pretty soon before you know it, you're paying 29 a month. And if they keep having Mike Tyson fight, it might be 99 bucks a month. But this reeks of stupidity, you don't just drop 73% increase or whatever it is on, your customers. And I'm guessing Sackett had been a customer for a really long time. Chad: He had to have been. Joel: I'm guessing. Yeah. So like, let's take one of our, let's take a customer that's been around forever, that is a figurehead in the industry that a lot of people know and let's stick him with a big price increase. And now he's gonna cancel and not come back and tell all his recruiting buddies like ZipRecruiter is full of shit. And then they're gonna think twice about using ZipRecruiter. I don't know how you walk back from this. It's kind of tough. We talked about their quarterly earnings recently, like, life is not great at ZipRecruiter and this is gonna make it a lot worse. Like, you gotta learn how to boil the frog. I mean, as much as we love Indeed, right? They stuck the price increase in the terms of service. Like the new thing made it look, did it right, At least. And before you know it, you're spending a lot more at Indeed than you would otherwise. But it doesn't feel like it because they didn't put a 73% increase on you overnight. So bad move, another bad move in the many bad moves that we talk about from ZipRecruiter on a regular basis. Chad: So if you take a look at it, same product, almost double the price, at least Indeed is trying to fake giving more value, with the new price increases. I mean, we all know it's bullshit, but they're trying to fake it, right? We'll see if that actually passes. But we say it all the time, The SMB market is a bitch. It it is. And that's where Zip that's where they, earned their bones, man was on the SMB side of the house. Zip entered the enterprise market way too late. Bigger accounts, less transactional and more sustainable, right? Expanding the total addressable market just isn't that easy, especially when you're going after it this way. Chad: Not to mention they were spending much like, and this is very reminiscent of Monster, CareerBuilder, Indeed spending loads of money on Super Bowl commercials for that SMB market to try to drive those single postings, those small job packs and whatnot. But that was more on the transactional side. Spending that kind of money is just not sustainable. Now, Zip didn't do Super Bowl commercials, but they were the biggest, and I don't know if they currently are, they were the biggest spender in podcast advertising across the globe, right? So again, to be able to meet the SMB market, you have to spend tons of cash 'cause you have to be on the top of minds of those small businesses. 'Cause they don't need you every day. Right? Enterprise need you every fucking day so that they, went kind of backwards at it. So this is, it's kicking their ass right now. Joel: In many ways and I know I've said this before, but they're a victim of their own success. They did such a good job of we're for the small guy, we're for that bar owner down the street that, you went to school with, that trying to pivot into enterprise, go public, try to be bigger than what you are, has bit them in the ass. And, yeah, if they're giving these price increases to Sackett, I can't imagine what, the bar guy down the street is thinking about the price increases. Chad: Yeah. When I was at Monster, 75% of the revenue that we actually received was from staffing company. And Tim's a staffing company, right? Yep. So I guarantee you what they're trying to do, okay, let me knock on wood. What I think they're trying to do is they're trying to juice the staffing company. Joel: Stick it to 'em? Chad: Yeah. They're trying to juice the staffing company, say, hey look, they can't live without us, so we're gonna make them pay. Well, I think what they're gonna find is that they can probably, live without you. Joel: It's good for Indeed. SFX: 60% of the time it works, every time. Joel: Well, let's go ahead and let's talk about another big name. Appcast. So a TA leader who is an avid listener and Appcast client sent me the following message from his Appcast representative, "With the acquisition of Bayard last year, we, Appcast, are currently rolling out some changes to our business model. Currently, we are transitioning away from supporting customers below a $20,000 per month spend." Whew. "With an end of March target date." So Joel, what would the response be from you if you received a message like this from your representative. SFX: Take off will ya we're doin' our movie! Don't wreck our show, you hoser! Joel: Look at what they do, not what they say. Chris Forman, CEO, founder, Appcast was on a charm offensive when they acquired Bayard saying nothing's going to change, it's all good. We love agencies, blah, blah, blah. And then you see stuff like this that says, you know what? We just want big companies with agency dollars to be our clients. And what it says to me is they're becoming competition for the shakers, the NASs, the Braden C's of the world. And if those folks aren't thinking about plan B and C, which I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they have, but they definitely should because Appcast is coming for them, period. And that's what this move says to me. Chad: So, story time. Years ago, when I was in radio advertising, I would have prospective advertisers with smaller budgets that I would have to turn down because the budget would be enough to run one 30-second commercial in drive time for the entire month. Right? And that in itself is not gonna give you the sales and/or brand expectations, brand awareness expectations that you wanted. So I would introduce them to some of our sister stations who could help them, right? With their budget size. Unlike ZipRecruiter, Appcast understands their total addressable market. That's what I'm seeing here. So, is that a bad thing? Zip is all over the place and it seems like Appcast is literally just trying to focus and be more disciplined. So, what I don't agree with is the way in which this Appcast representative handled the situation. So, I assure you Appcast does not, I repeat, does not want to be the new most hated brand in the industry. I'm sure they'd rather allow that to just stay with Indeed, right? Or in this case, ZipRecruiter. Appcast and Bayard, who know who they are, they are enterprise. And as what we talked about before, that's not a bad thing. But in the journey, they can't tell clients to save money by eating cornflakes and spending that cash with them, right? Chad: I mean, it's like, yeah, we'll just spend less over here and spend more with us. So, they're going to, and I think this is good for some of the smaller agencies, they'll be able to pick up some of those portfolios that just kind of like fall away. If they're spending $15,000 a month and they don't qualify, that's still $180,000 a year, right? That's not a bad size client. But I think, again, the difference between ZipRecruiter, who, they have no discipline. They have no fucking clue what they're doing. They are all over the place. In this case, it really feels like Appcast is trying to tighten things up. They're trying to focus. And the only way that you can do that is to have some of these very, very hard decisions. Joel: I'm not saying it's a bad decision. It's the 80/20 rule, right? It's 20% of your clients are 80% of your headaches in most cases. In most cases, those are the smaller clients where you're their only... Chad: Sometimes. Joel: You're the only game in town. You're all they're doing. They are focused on what you're doing for them. Whereas the big companies, they give money to a lot of people. They're a lot less of a headache. So I'm not saying it's a bad business decision. I think it's probably a great business decision. I just think that it's a shot over the bow of every agency that App... You need to think twice about Appcast being your programmatic solution of choice for your clients. That's all I'm saying. Chad: Well, I think this is literally Appcast targeting in on Rad agency, right? And saying, look, you guys are enterprise, we're gonna take you down, our tech's better. We've got Baird now we're, I mean, go after the the big fish, the big whale, right? Joel: Sure. But there aren't many agencies that cater to the little guy. Chad: I Mean, little guy we're talking about close to $200,000 a year, right? I mean, yeah, depending on what your scale of little guy is, it's a good market. So, yeah, I think. Joel: Sure is. And if you can take those branding dollars and those job posting dollars and, and, and it becomes a really good business, and that's what Appcast is doing. They're cutting away from the little guys that aren't like big picture, big dollars and they're focusing on the ones that are. So it's good for them. I just think it's a warning to everybody else. Chad: And again, back to my analogy, if they don't feel like they can do what they need to be able to do from an expectation standpoint for that client, it's better that I push you off to somebody else who can actually give you what you need. Joel: Do you think they should have a product for those little guys? Chad: Maybe one day, but right now they're being focused and they're being disciplined. And I really like that. I like that they're doing that. So at the end of the day, sales needs to tighten up. They need to be more diplomats than strong arming perspective clients to get them from 15,000 to 20,000 or whatever it is, right? Because that seemed more like a strong arm tactic email than anything else. But when I talked to, Appcast you know, again, you gotta own it, you gotta know who you are. And I gotta say, I kind of dig it. Joel: You Know where this is leading, Chad? Chad: Uh-oh. Joel: This is leading to that StepStone acquisition of CareerBuilder and Monster to where they have that US footprint. Chad: No. No. Joel: And they're gonna send all the little guys... Chad: No. Joel: To Monster and CareerBuilder, which they'll own for the little deals and they'll take the big deals. Chad: No. Joel: I'm telling you, Chad, I'm telling you I see it. The writing is on the wall. SFX: 60% of the time it works, everytime time. Joel: We'll be back. All right, Chad, what a great first block. We have a lot to live up to after that one. All right. Let's talk about, a recent headline from Fast Company that reads, "Klarna says it's AI assistant does the work of 700 people after it laid off 700 people." A Fortune headline reads, "Klarna froze hiring because of AI. Now it says it's chatbot does the work of 700 full-time staff." After partnering with OpenAI, Klarna has seen significant efficiency in its customer service interactions, which is likely to influence other companies around the world to follow their lead. And I think that's probably gonna be a bad thing for recruiting, but maybe we'll unfold that. Chad, what are your thoughts on Klarna's 700? Chad: So yesterday I spent 20 minutes on hold, right? And I did that 'cause I wanted to, talk to a human being customer service rep because I've used these chatbots and I've used chat on customer service for a few years now. And I don't like it, 'cause it doesn't give me what I want and what I need. I will be async on chat with a service rep for hours, hours. When I wait for 20 minutes. I know I can get on with a human being. I can generally get that taken care of within 45 minutes, right? So yes, I see this as in some cases an opportunity to be able to replace some repetitive types of positions. But the real question is why is Klarna doing this? Chad: I mean, they could easily just cut heads slowly without filling those positions and still find themselves in this situation without risking the, we like robots over people optics, 'cause that that's what they're looking for here. They're pushing for these types of optics. So why risk bad optics? I think it comes to these three letters. They're your favorite three letters, Joel Cheesman, IPO. They are trying to make a ton of splash in the media with these numbers because they want to go IPO and they want to go big. So we will have to set expectations that any jobs that are routine and repeatable are obviously at risk. Okay? That's gonna happen. But at the end of the day, these guys care more about going IPO and their bank account than any of that shit. And I mean, that's what this feels to me. Every time I hear anything about these guys, they're always pushing toward that 700, 700, 700 and go, oh, wait a minute, what are we looking to do? Oh, IPO. Okay, that makes sense. Perfect sense. Joel: Did you say IPO? SFX: I'm happy. [laughter] Joel: I agree with you. I think historically, automated customer service blows. Push one for, push two for Spanish, one for English, okay. Especially with a digital phone. And so, are you, you wanna check your balance, press one, you want, like that's an awful experience. But if you had a voice that sounded like a human and I could talk to and I didn't know the difference, maybe a little bit of nuance, here and there, which will probably be cleared up at some point. Like, I'd be okay. Just like job seekers posting, giving their resume to a company and doing a chatbot as opposed to the black hole, that's a good thing. So here's some numbers, from the story. So the bot is managing two-thirds of customer service chats, roughly 2.3 million conversations, 23 markets and 35 languages. So the bots can speak any language and apparently they're getting better about what your accent is, what region of Germany you're from. Chad: No, it'll get better. Yeah, it will. Joel: Like it gets better around there. Okay. Chad: It will. Joel: The integration is expected to increase profits by $40 million in 2024, the company said. The chatbot's efficiency has resulted in fewer errors, a 25% decrease in repeat inquiries and reduced average conversation times from 11 minutes to two minutes. So I've not talked to this bot, but at least metric wise it's better. So if companies can eliminate headcount and make the customer service experience better, everyone's going to do it. And that's the bottom line of this. Any public... Look, this is the year of efficiency. We keep talking about it. Zuckerberg proof that you can fire 20 million people or 20,000 people and your stock is going to go through the roof because you become more efficient. Joel: Twitter by still being up or X as Meta crashes and LinkedIn goes down just proves that you can cut 80% of your developer staff and you're still up, right? This is going to bleed into companies all over the place, laying off customer service, laying off sales staff because automation is the way of the future. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying this is the way that it is and this is going to impact recruiting. It's going to impact hiring. There's no doubt about it. And how fast it happens and how big of a breath that happens on a global scale, we don't know, but we're going to talk about more and more companies that are doing these kinds of things. We talked about, was it the Indian company a year ago laying off 90% of their customer service? Chad: Yeah. Joel: And that was probably some hack job, whatever automated system. This is ChatGPT integrated. Now if you listen to the All-In podcast, a more popular podcast of four really rich technical guys, they talk about this extensively. So if you want to know more and kind of their take on it, listen to what they said. But it's, any tech company is going to want to create efficiencies like this and would love to cut their customer service if they could, as well as their staff and marketing and everybody else. Chad: I do agree. The Facebook thing though, you got to stop using that. That's such a fucking red herring. 'Cause they killed VR, they killed VR and they were bloated. I mean, so they actually just, all they did was they were doing business very irresponsibly for a long time and then they're like, oh, we're going to be responsible. So what you're saying is total bullshit. It's a red herring. It doesn't make sense because they were doing bad business. Now they're doing better business. Joel: But we agree this will be a trend. We'll be talking about more of these stories. Chad: It's already a trend because we had tech bloat in the first place. So, I mean, that's what happens. It's called a cycle. Joel: Well, there's bloat and there is replacing the bloat with bots, which is different. Chad: Yeah. Well, in this case, no question, like anything that's routine, repeatable, I mean, that in itself these, this is OpenAI by the way. And they actually they partner with OpenAI about this. This is what's gonna happen. And we've talked about this on other podcasts too, is that AI is a commodity, period, right? This is all about training the AI. So you get a company like Klarna who is going all in on AI very quickly. The reason being is they know if they train it, AI is like a puppy, it's going to piss on the carpet. You got to train it. So it doesn't have stupid responses. And the next thing you know, it's doing just as well, if not better than humans. If you have it co-pilot a human, then the humans also teaching it the best responses. So, I mean, there are many models that are in place right now, but OpenAI, Gemini, Perplexity, Anthropic, some of these big names, I think they're going to be the ones that win. Joel: They, the guys on the All-In said that, wouldn't it be interesting if they made this an open-source and made it available sort of to everybody to build onto, that would be interesting. They also made a prediction. You'll find this interesting if you haven't heard. They're predicting at some point we will have a one-person unicorn or a single person will build a company around AI and automation and create a billion dollar company. Chad: The reason being is they will hype it and fund it. Joel: Well, they'll fund it. Yeah. [laughter] Chad: All four of those fuck sticks, all four of those fuck sticks will, they will fund it, they will hype it. I mean, it's just, okay. I mean, so what? So what? Joel: All right. Sticking with high tech. Stack Overflow has secured its first customer, Google, for paid access to content used to train AI chatbots. The deal allows Google's Gemini chatbot to utilize Stack Overflow's Q and A for coding assistance. Terms of the deal were not disclosed, but Stack CEO said, "This will be a meaningful commercial offering for us in the near term, medium term, and long term." Chad, what are your thoughts on Google's data deal? Chad: So I think it's interesting because I'm wondering what kind of hallucinations will happen after letting that beast loose, right? No matter. It's a very smart play by Google. We just talked about Klarna and what they're looking to do. This is all about data. This is all about walled-off data. And they're going to be playing, they're going to be paying Stack Overflow for this. And that is genius. And they are setting a precedent, which I think is awesome because there is money to be made. There's money in them Thar Hill. So Stack is one example. There are many data lakes, data oceans that are out there that I think there's going to be a race to those lakes of data from Google and Microsoft, obviously with OpenAI and so on and so forth. But people using the models, the beautiful part about it is that they're starting to understand that the large language models are not the voice of God. They are imperfect and yet still incredibly helpful at the same time. So I think at first we got in there and it was like, oh, it's a toy, let's play with it. And it was all good. And it's like, wow, this is pretty good. And then people got really serious about it. And then they were like, we're gonna snipe every single issue that we see. We need to go back to, remember, this is a puppy. It's still pissing on the carpet to some extent. Joel: Yeah, this is unfolding to be a common story. We talked about the New York Times and certain publications suing the LLMs for using their content. Now we're seeing these companies get paid for their content. And Reddit most recently, another IPO, you know how I love the IPO talk, Chad. They're doing a deal with Google that Google can access Reddit's content to then train their models to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. I think it's a three-year deal. It's non-exclusive. I'm sure they're talking exclusives with some of these, but my guess is these companies with a lot of content know their value and are going to try to get as much money as possible with as many of these high-tech, big-tech companies as possible. What I find interesting is Google's going to need a new revenue model. If Indeed Search is not going to be, here's a page of links, go to a website and click on the ads that we have on the site. If it's more of AI, talk to me, I'll give you the answer you're looking for. Then it becomes, how does Google make money on that? And subscription seems to be like where it's going. And you can already pay for Gemini... Chad: Services. Joel: You can pay for OpenAI for their better services or enterprise. Obviously, APIs will be part of that. But you look at Google, you also have to make the websites happy. Websites aren't happy if they're not clicking on a link to Google and coming to your site. That doesn't make websites happy. And they really don't like it when you take their content and put it on as the answer to the question, I don't have to go to your site, I can just stay on Google. Chad: Personally, I don't think Google at this point gives two shits about making websites happy. They're going to find a way to be able to monetize off of data that they're paying for, number one. Not to mention also, you're going to have transactional, let's say for instance, businesses who use Google One or the Google Suite, they're going to pay for additional Gemini infusion or something of that nature. I mean, there's going to be transactional and they're going to be bigger business opportunities where you're actually using the large language models with your data, much like Klarna is doing with OpenAI. So I think there are many, many different ways that they're going to be able to not just focus on search and to be able to evolve search, but it's beyond that. Right? It's all the different tentacles that they can get themselves into. Joel: All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll talk about Indeed. All right, Chad, the internet loves a good fiasco and the Glasgow Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory Experience is no exception. Let me say that again. The Glasgow Willy Wonka Chocolate Experience, Chocolate Factory Experience is no exception. The event took place in a mostly empty warehouse and the few scattered candy-themed props and actors in shoddy costumes left attendees disappointed and demanding refunds. One photo in particular caught the internet's attention, featuring an actor dressed as an Oompa Loompa in a meth lab setting. Meth lab is in quotes there. The actor, Kirsty Patterson, has since become a viral sensation and meme of 2024. Joel: And where did she find this opportunity? Well, Indeed, of course. When asked, she said, it was listed on Indeed. I don't normally get my acting jobs through Indeed, but I just thought, all right. To be honest, I was a wee bit skeptical because it was not through an agency. They were offering 500 pounds for two days of work, so I decided to go. But wait, Chad, there's more. There's more from Indeed. A racist job ad stating, "No African-Americans needed," was apparently posted on Indeed. To their credit, the ad was quickly deleted and the company claimed foul play. But one has to wonder, how in a world of AI and Indeed's immense resources does a job posting like this even see the light of day in the first place? Oompa Loompas and racism at Indeed, Chad, what are your thoughts? Chad: Was it racism against Oompa Loompas? Joel: As long as it's not racism against Oompa Loompas, because they've been through some shit, man. Chad: Poor things. Yeah, that poor kid that was a part of the Willy Wonka, I mean, she was not acting. She looked like she was just horrified to be there. I totally get that. It was also compared to like the Fyre Festival. Have you seen that? Joel: Oh, yeah. Chad: Just a low price Fyre Festival. Joel: The lunches. Yeah, the food, like a piece of cheese and a bread. Chad: It's almost impossible for an Indeed to actually take a shit scam like that and not know that it's a scam. The racism piece though, I mean, I think this literally just identifies once again that Indeed is not the leader in technology in our space. You talk about AI, I don't know what they have it doing over there, but it's definitely not going through and doing reviews or checks on the system. If it is, it really sucks at it, should probably pick another one. But yeah, at the end of the day, we're talking about the LinkedIn's of the world a lot of the times, the Indeed's of the world a lot of times, ZipRecruiters and most of them, I think Zip, Zip's a little bit more advanced, but Indeed and LinkedIn, they have old ass decrepit shit that they're still trying to sell and they can't even get the basics right. I mean, we talk about matching. You can't even do matching right. You can't do a lot of this shit. So why do we expect it to catch racism? I think we're asking too much of LinkedIn because it's kind of like that 90-year-old in a walker that has a shit ton of cash. SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: Yeah, quickly on the racism thing. Like they should be able to have some filters before a job goes public with something like, oh, let's see, what was it? No African-Americans, like that key phrase is pretty obvious. If they had done it as like... Chad: It's fairly simple. Joel: Yeah. If they had done it as like a star or an exclamation and tried to get around the filters, I get it, but the fact that that phrase got through is a little bit concerning and they should probably fix that. In terms of the Oompa Loompa, Chad, I'm going to put my PR hat on because I'm sick of these big companies making stupid mistakes. I'm going to fix Indeed's problem. So Indeed needs to hire Kirsty Patterson and have her go to Indeed to find a better job and have her graduate from Oompa Loompa land to, I don't know, an accountant or a real estate professional. I don't know. But this is a grand opportunity for Indeed to take this social phenomenon and make it something good and help her get a real job. You're welcome, Indeed. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast. The Chad, the Cheese, friend. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar. Blue. Nacho. Pepper jack. Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese.

This week on "Live from Transform," we're broadcasting straight from the heart of Las Vegas, bringing you the most sizzling updates from the business and work sector. Expect nothing less than the hottest of hot news! First up, we delve into Paradox's latest move – appointing a brand-new CEO. This change at the top has the industry buzzing, and we're here to analyze what this means for the company's future direction. Then, we're going TMZ-style, uncovering a high-profile industry veteran caught in an unexpected situation Down Under. Rumors are swirling about a potential acquisition in the works, and we've got the inside scoop that's heating up the business world. But that's not all! We're also talking about Veritone's latest strategic play, joining forces with one of the largest job board networks globally. This partnership could reshape the landscape of job seeking and recruitment, and we're breaking down all the implications. If these fiery topics don't catch your interest, you've got to ask yourself – why are you even listening? Tune in for an episode packed with insights, intrigue, and insider info from the world of work. It's all happening right here, live from Transform in Las Vegas! TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Because what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, so don't listen to a damn thing Chad says... Chad: Lies. Lies. Joel: On this podcast. What's up boys and girls? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel mind Freak Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad, not hungover, believe that shit, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show paradox gets a new head, Finnegan Begin again, and Veritone Tony Tony has done it again. Let's do this. Chad: Feels good. Emotional damage. Joel: All right, Chad. We are live from Las Vegas at the Transform Conference. I'm in day five. You are in day two I believe. Chad: Yes, yes. Joel: I'm probably showing a little more wear and tear than you at this point. Chad: God I hope so. Yes. Joel: But, yes. Good times last night. Good times last night. Chad: Amazing times. Joel: I had the giggles, apparently. Chad: Oh my God. Okay. We're just going to go right into this. So, literally, I gave Cheeseman a 5 mg gummy. Yes. Just five. Joel: Lies. Chad: He was... Joel: At least 20 was in that thing. Chad: And shout out to Workvivo because we went to the sphere. Joel: Oh, yeah. Chad: They hooked us up with sweet tickets. So we're in a suite, Joel is right into his gummy. And at the end of it, I mean, first and foremost, it was an amazing experience. Thank you Workvivo. They're owned by Zoom. Joel: Yes. Chad: Which you forgot because you were on a gummy. Joel: I had forgotten, yeah. Chad: The CIO of Zoom. The CIO of Zoom comes in. Amazing dude. He starts talking about different people that they're working with and he says, oh yeah, and then we also had an event with Tony Robbins and you said what? Joel: Did you say Kenny Loggins? [laughter] Joel: And then you said... Chad: I said danger zone and then you couldn't stop laughing. Joel: Oh my God. Check it. You're in the danger zone, my man. And I just lost it. Chad: You were so high. It was hilarious. But the event, how was it? Because you were high and I mean that could set some people into vertigo. Joel: Yeah. Think IMAX on steroids. Chad: Oh, it's amazing. Joel: If you're watching something. Chad: I fucking love it. Joel: And you get air in your face. The chairs shake when you're falling into a pit or something. Chad: Yes. Joel: Mind blowing. I mean, that part was really cool. I was transfixed and then, yeah, something snapped and I could not stop laughing man. It was awesome. Chad: And then we went to go see a friend and videographer. Joel: Yeah. Little Comedy. Chad: Then go... A standup comedy. That was a good time. Joel: That was a good show. Chad: That was a great time. Joel: Yes. Chad: Ben did a good job. He did a really good job. Joel: Yes. I am figuring out that I'm becoming a show guy, Chad, if we're extending this to Vegas... Chad: A show guy. Okay. Joel: So I made fun of the old people way back, that I go to a conference and of course I'm partying at whatever, I've got naked ladies in a pool at a hotel or whatever. And the old people would be like, "Oh, we're going to do a nice dinner. Go see a show." And I thought that was so lame. Now, I'm into it. I'm loving it. First night did a Cirque du Soleil show, I think the love show with Plum. Chad: Yes. Yeah. Last time. Oh, that was amazing. Yeah. Joel: Got me intrigued. And we did the mind freak. Chad: Oh, did you? Joel: Chris Angel. Oh, we did this thing. Chad: Oh damn. Joel: Carrot Top was in the audience. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Jesus. Joel: So every show has the chance to really drop an unexpected pleasure. Mine just happened to be Carrot Top. Chad: Yes. Well, the first night that we were here I was sucking, because we were up early, we traveled. JobPixel had this amazing event where, it was, they took over a piece of the buffet here in the Wynn and you're like "Ah, it's a buffet." That is the buffet. That's not a, but that is... If you're going to any buffet, that's the buffet. I saw a guy sitting over by the crab legs. He should have just taken the plate of crab legs. 'Cause I mean, go figure, it's all you can eat. And that's all he was eating. High quality. Joel: You know I've been known to like a good meal or two, Chad. Chad: I do. Joel: And even I was overwhelmed with the magnitude of the Wynn... Chad: Yes. Joel: Buffet. Chad: Yes. Joel: So my hat's off to Mr. Crab legs who could not stop consuming the said crab legs, because that is a real athlete my friend. Chad: Yes. Joel: Not all heroes... Chad: No. Joel: Wear capes. Chad: No. And thanks again to Omar, JobPixel, that was amazing. Both of which we're advisors for but then we're here in Transform. I have never been to a show at the Wynn before, I don't believe. Have you? Joel: I've never been at the Wynn before. Chad: This is up... That's 'cause they wouldn't let you in. Joel: Yeah, they shouldn't. Chad: This is upscale. You had a badge this time, so they let you in. Joel: Yeah. Chad: This is upscale. And it was funny because Julie on day one said every show should be at the Wynn. Joel: She did say that. She did say that. It's all right as a show... I mean, as a hotel I'm sure it's great. Chad: Yeah, it's nice. Joel: It's all right as a show conference place. Chad: I like it. Joel: It's alright. Chad: I do like Caesars Forum where... Joel: Caesars? Maybelline day... Chad: Unleash does their thing too. Joel: Does a good job too. Chad: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Vegas is a good spot. Coming here three times a year probably not what I want to do, but we'll make do. We were on stage yesterday, had three amazing practitioners. We have that show. Joel: How did we get them? Chad: Samara. Samara and Transform got us some amazing practitioners. We are going to have that actually go out as a podcast on its own. It was amazing time. We got an opportunity to talk brass tacks with three practitioners on stage and they weren't afraid. Joel: Nope. Intro: Which I love. Joel: No. A great diverse. We had Panda, which is your Panda Express... Chad: Joey. Joel: Your fast Chinese food. Chad: Joey. Joel: We had Box Tech company, storage... Chad: Jess. Yep. Jessica. Joel: That was great. And then Hungryroot, kind of your hippie... Chad: Uh-huh, Caroline. Joel: Hippie trippy health food in a Box coming to your house. Chad: Yes. Yes. Joel: So we got a really great different views... Chad: Diverse. Joel: AI, DI automation. Chad: Loved it. Joel: We tried to tackle as many issues as we could in 45 minutes. And, yeah, we'll be releasing that soon. But that was fantastic. Yeah. Chad: Whenever you get on stage, obviously, we bring on beer. It's the end of the day, we've got that happening. We both thought, at the end of the day we were like, "Nobody is going to be here. We're going to be talking to an empty crowd." Every fucking place was full. Joel: It was full. Chad: It was full. Joel: It was full. It wasn't the biggest of areas. We weren't on... Chad: Yeah, I know. Joel: If you've been to these things. There's the keynotes... Chad: We were the Expo hall. Yeah. Joel: There's the keynote with 1000 chairs. We weren't there. But we were competing with Liquor. Okay? We were competing with all the exhibitors here. And that's not always easy. So I think that we held our own. Chad: Yes. Joel: We opened it up with Little Guns N' Roses, Welcome to the jungle. Kind of set the mood... Chad: Oh, teaser, teaser. Joel: Set the mood. You poured beer on a lot of the audience members from what I remember, had a little spillage. Chad: I had a beer... Joel: A little spillage on stage. Chad: I needed a sippy cup, I needed a sippy cup. Joel: But had a good time. So my question to you is... Chad: Yes. Joel: We go to a lot of shows. Where is Transform in the big scheme of things for you? Where do they compete? How are they different? Where are they better? Your take? Chad: Well, I like to say that, first of all, I don't like to stack rank because they're so different. The shows are so different. It's kind of like RecFest is so much different than Unleash. And Transform so different than RecFest. There are a lot. I'm going to say probably 70% of the vendors that are here I have never fucking heard of. Joel: Interesting. Chad: 70, at least 70%. Joel: Interesting. Chad: A bulk. So they're obviously bringing in an entirely different crop of startups. So, again, I don't see this as better, worse, or anything. I see it as different. And especially when we're talking about the audience that they're hitting, a lot of high level practitioners. I actually had SVP of Pepsi stop me today. Ask me when she can be on the podcast. I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" Joel: Oh, nice. Chad: Yes. So... Joel: Nice. Chad: Yeah. Good stuff. Really good stuff. Joel: Good stuff. I think you mentioned Unleash and we'll be at Unleash in Vegas again in May. Chad: Yes. Joel: They seem to be really competitive with HR tech, whether that's a mental thing or just by default but to me... Chad: But I don't think they are. I don't think they are. Joel: No. HR tech is an industry integration. Chad: It's a vendor sausage fest. Joel: Yeah. Don't go to HR tech thinking you're going to fill the funnel... Chad: No. Joel: And make a lot of sales. Chad: It's... Joel: To me... Chad: Strategic alliances... Joel: This Felt more Unleashy to me, more competitive. Chad: Okay. Joel: So if I'm Unleash, I'm looking at Transform a little more than HR tech as an up and coming competitor. We know ERE is trying to sort of reimagine their conferences... Chad: They have investors who have booths here. Right? Joel: Sure. Chad: Yeah. I mean, and we should see more of that. Joel: And on stage as well. Chad: Yes. We should see more of that. And I know that Unleash is really hitting the investor and startup side of the house hard. So, yeah, I think, again, I think they're taking it at different angles which is cool... Joel: Yes. Chad: Because if they try to be the same, I mean, then it gets boring and you hear the Charlie Brown wah, wah, wah. Joel: Yep. Yep. And likewise... Chad: I see it different. Joel: RecFest's. Chad: Oh, fuck dude. Joel: Their secret sauce is just nobody is like us. Chad: No. Joel: So hat's off. Chad: Nobody is RecFest. Joel: Hat's off to them. Chad: Yes. Joel: Hat's off to them. All right, let's make a quick do of our announcements. Chad: Let's do that. Joel: Because we are live. It's typical. Chad: Ben from BrightHire. Joel: We're going to hold off on... Yes. Ben Sesser, CEO of BrightHire, just walked by. He's looking good. He's in all black. We're recording a live show so... Chad: Get out of here Ben. Joel: You are famous. Chad: We're doing stuff, Jesus. [laughter] Joel: By the way, thanks to BrightHire, one of our newest sponsors of Firing Squad. That's right. Chad: You guys love Firing Squad. Joel: You Love Teddy. You love Teddy. You love Firing Squad. Now you'll learn to love BrightHire... Chad: Our favorite country music star. Teddy Chestnut. Joel: [chuckle] Chestnut. Chad: Teddy Chestnut. Joel: And food competitor. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Food eating competitor. So we'll get to birthdays... Chad: Next week. Joel: Probably not next week, we'll be in... Chad: Oh, that's right, Amsterdam. Joel: We'll be in Europe. So it might be a couple of weeks. But shout out to Plum... Chad: Yes. Joel: Our sponsor for the birthdays. Shout out to Textkernel sponsoring bourbon selection by both of us. Aspen Tech Labs. Chad: Yes. Joel: For beer and really excited new T-shirt design just approved. We'll be printing those up soon. Chad: Oh, you're going to see it. Joel: Erin E-R-I-N is our new sponsor for T-shirts. Very excited about that. Look for that. If you haven't signed up at chadcheese.com... Chad: Sexy. Joel: /free, you're not getting a T-shirt, you're not getting bourbon, you're not getting beer. You'll probably be the most avoided person at your next social event. Chad: More than likely, yeah. Joel: So, yeah, you got to go to chadcheese.com, click that free link, put in your information and who knows, a T-shirt and some booze just might show up at your door. Chad: And you said Textkernel. We're going to see our friend Gerard Mulder. Joel: Gerard. Yes. Chad: Gerard Mulder in Amsterdam next week as we're going to the e-recruitment congress. Leaving, get ready, we expect Belgian beer, Belgian chalk, all of it my friend. I can't wait, dude. Joel: Don't throw any Heineken or Amstel Light at my ass... Chad: I'm so excited. Joel: Don't even think about it. Gerard, love Gerard. He... Chad: Oh, yes. Joel: He's a gentleman technologist and he always drops wisdom and I feel much smarter... Chad: He does. Joel: At the end of it. So if you are going to be in Amsterdam or you are going to House of HR, make sure you say hi to us. Another quick announcement, we just dropped our data... Chad: Toby. Joel: Data podcast. Toby Dayton, CEO of LinkUp, gets information that the Wall Street guys are accessing. Chad: Yes. Joel: People are making money with this information. Chad: He's the insider of insiders. Joel: And you lucky listener, no cost whatsoever. Get to know... Chad: YouTube. Joel: The wisdom... Chad: YouTube. Joel: And the data of Toby Dayton. So you can only view this on YouTube. Go to youtube.com/@ChadCheese make sure you subscribe, share, like and watch. Chad: Do it all. Do it all. Yeah. Joel: And watch. Chad: He's sharing charts and graphs and all that other fun stuff that really they don't translate well on the audio side. So go to YouTube look for Chad and Cheese podcast and listen and watch. Joel: Yeah, and you don't have to be a genius. We dumb it down for the Chad and Cheese folks. Chad: Well, it's got... Joel: Mainly for us. Chad: Mainly for us. Yeah. Joel: But, yeah, you'll understand it, you'll digest it, you'll consume it... Chad: We got to simplify it. Yes. Joel: You'll love it. Your boss will think you're great and smart just like Chad and cheese. Shall we get to topics. Chad: Topics. Joel: That's Right baby. All right, big news out of the desert this week. Chad: What? Joel: Paradox has promoted friend of the show Adam Godson to CEO with founder Aaron Matos becoming executive chairman. Godson, previously president and chief product officer, joined in 2020 and led the company's initial growth. As CEO, he aims to continue the company's culture of client care and innovation. Matos will serve as advisor and mentor to the executive team. Chad: Nice. Joel: Focusing on strategic vision and product development. Big news, Chad, your thoughts? Chad: Big news. Yeah, so it's funny because we got this news early, 'cause we've got friends... Joel: We got friends like that. Chad: We have friends. Adam is a close friend, Jay-Z, amazing. And, again, we talked about this four years ago. Jay-Z went to Paradox first, I believe, and then Adam did four years ago. And I said on the show, Aaron and I think I can say we were both at one time control freaks. Not that I'm not a control freak now. But we were both control freaks. And I said that if Aaron gets the fuck out of the way and lets these guys run, this company will explode. They threw that at me this week. Joel: Sure. Sure. Chad: But Aaron I didn't say make him CEO, but it's not a bad thing. Yeah. I think this is amazing. Paradox, it's funny because they are the alpha in this space. Joel: The apex predator I've been known to call them. Chad: They are the alpha. They have taken a chatbot to applicant tracking system. I mean, all the way through the system. And as we talk about, how do you own this market? You got to go down funnel. We talked about even the job boards. They need to go more down funnel if they want to be relevant moving on, you got to have data. Why? This whole AI thing is a thing. Paradox understands that, they understood that. They know data means everything. And then you got a guy who, he is best in class. Adam Godson, in the market. He was with RPO Cielo for years doing this exact same thing. Now he has the cash, not just duct tape and bailing wire that he had at Cielo to build products. He has the firepower to go build whatever he wanted to as the chief product officer. Now he's the fucking CEO. And then you've got Aaron still there... Joel: No. Chad: As chairman. So dude I'm excited. I'm biased as fuck, don't get me wrong, but I am excited to see where these guys go. Joel: Yeah, it is a two-way street with those guys. Chad: Yes. Joel: I think the love goes both ways... Chad: Yes. Joel: From that. And we will be in Phoenix... Chad: Yes. Joel: Soon. So hopefully... Chad: April, Jesus. Joel: I don't know if we'll be his first interview as CEO, but I'll take that gig if he wants to give it to us. So I have a special relationship with them. In the 2000s, I sold what was then a blog, SEO mobile kind of... Chad: Cheese Head. Joel: Kind of a mix up of a company. Worked for Aaron directly for a couple of years. I will echo your control freak comment. Although, I think the years, having children, life just sort of has mellowed Aaron a little bit. Chad: It does that too. Joel: A leopard doesn't change its stripes, usually. So I got three takeaways from this. Chad: Okay. Joel: Number one is, Paradox must be doing really well. Back to the control freak thing. Aaron does not let go unless it's going really, really well. And he feels like I can step away. So... Chad: Adam hasn't been president for long either. Joel: No. So as much as we know that Paradox is doing very well, my guess is it's even doing better than we think or we talk about. So that's my first takeaway. Paradox must be crushing it for Aaron to make this move. Number two, Aaron highlights the importance of CEO as your head of TA. And I don't say that lightly. He's a fantastic recruiter. He has built a team that is frankly probably unmatched in our little world of work here. And most CEOs do not focus on the recruitment side of it like Aaron has and will continue to do so. So from his board of directors, his investors, his leadership team, probably middle management and beyond, he's had a hand in that. He's had a directive in some of those. He's probably gone all out to get Adam on board to get Jay-Z on board... Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: To get these guys on board. So he exemplifies the importance of CEO as head of talent. CEO needs to be recruiting. And my third takeaway is that, he ain't going away. [chuckle] Chad: Oh, no. No. Joel: He ain't going away. Chad: I ain't leaving. Joel: Yeah, he ain't leaving. This is Wolf of Wall Street Bay. Chad: I ain't leaving. Joel: Yeah, they need to... Anyway. It will probably enable him to focus more on, he does acquisitions incredibly well. Chad: He's a smart nude. Joel: And we've talked about consolidation. We've talked about TJ Maxx clearance racks. He is going to have time to focus on these acquisitions and start knocking them down one by one, and just sort of give them to the team to run. So one, Paradox is crushing it. Two, CEO needs to be your head of recruiting. And number three, Aaron is not going anywhere and he'll be Unleashed on parts that have been less of a focus. Chad: It's scary. Joel: And that's kind of scary. Chad: It's going to be scary. Joel: That's a little scary. Chad: So there's... And I think we're missing one piece that I want to hit, we've hit before in the past, Aaron has one superpower that most CEOs in this space do not. Joel: Yep. Chad: His experience and his failure. And failure is learning. Knowing how determined Aaron is, and I don't know him as well as you do, but I'm sure that you agree how determined that dude is. He wanted to come out as the Phoenix with this Paradox, with Paradox and Olivia. And he really has. And that's one of the things that we have to understand is that, failure is a learning experience and you have to pivot off that and you have to become better. And I just think he has, I really think he has. To Adam's point of being head of TA, there's nobody in the industry that's more likable than that guy. Maybe Jay-Z. The two most likable guys. Joel: Yeah. Okay. Chad: In the industry are leaders in that organization. Amazing. Joel: Yes. And don't discount Aaron going from what was arguably a top five, six job board nationally, and starting this little bitty chatbot side project that has become what it has become. But there's a lot of humble pie... Chad: Vision. Yeah. Joel: Humble pie needs to be eaten, a lot of looks in the mirror and that's not easy to do. Chad: No. Joel: And he once commented in a meeting that, "Hey, if we're gonna be disrupted, I want to be the one that's doing the disrupting." Which is good advice for any organization. But he ate that dog food and he disrupted his own job board business. Chad: That's maturity. Joel: Yeah. Chad: That is, if anything matures you... I've failed, I've crashed and burned with products and shit like that. What I've learned out of that is immense, I mean, it is. And I feel like I've been a better person out of learning out of that. So, again, I think he has a superpower where most founders in this space, experience wise, they do not. Joel: Yeah. And knowing Aaron as I do, he's hating all this sunshine being blown up his ass. [laughter] Joel: So... Chad: Hey dude, I have been one of Aaron's biggest critics. Joel: A critic, yes. Chad: For years. We have been on opposite sides of the fence, even from litigation standpoint at a company that I was with and at a company he was with. Right? Joel: Yep. Yep. Chad: I'm not gonna blow sunshine unless... Joel: [chuckle] unless. Chad: Unless he deserves it. Right? Joel: Yeah. Okay. But he still hates it. Chad: You on the other... Joel: I'm just telling you he hates it... Chad: You on the other hand, you're a sunshine blower. Joel: He hates it and hate him thinking all his company is listening to this, is driving him crazy. Okay. Chad: Next. Joel: Well, we will take our noses out of Aaron's ass and get a word from our sponsors. Remember, kids, there is no show without sponsors. So listen to our ads and write blank checks to all the companies that are supporting the Chad Cheese podcast. Chad: Ooh. SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: All right. We are back day. Chad: We are back. Joel: Day two, Transform conference at the Wynn in beautiful Las Vegas. Chad: Yes. Joel: Nevada. Let's... Chad: Transform. Joel: To keep up with the topics. Swedish private equity investor, EQT Partners, has put up its hand for Melbourne Australia born human resources software business, PageUp, where US Tech investor, Battery Ventures, wants to part with its 80% stake. Sources told Street Talk, EQT Partners was among parties that tabled a non-binding indicative bid to SellSide advisor, William Blair, last month. British PE investor Permira is also understood to have shown interest, although it is unclear if it's submitted an offer. The Sharks are out looking for deals. Chad, what's your take on the PageUp news? Chad: Yeah. We talked about PageUp coming out publicly and saying, "Hey, we were ready to sell. We're ready to sell." I mean it, that was amazing. You never hear that, shit happens behind closed doors. And they said, "Hey, market, we want to sell." And, well, apparently they have takers. Apparently they have takers, which is awesome. Here's the cool thing, and again, this is all rumor, maybe it's, you know. Joel: This is the good stuff. Everybody. [chuckle] Chad: A social post, from Dan Finnigan. You might know this guy. Dan Finnigan, actually says, "Speaking of the Beatles, off to Melbourne for a few days, and then Sydney for a day, just so I can be back by the following Monday." So he's gone to Australia in a whirlwind tour. Dan Finnigan. Now, who's Dan Finnigan, Joel? Joel: Dan Finnigan is a mover and Shaker, CEO executive, that cut his teeth at HotJobs Yahoo. Chad: Yes. Joel: Back in the early 2000s, he took Jobvite over. Chad: Jobvite. Yes. Yes. Joel: Got them acquired, got them... Chad: Jobvite was what? Joel: Got them a pay day. Chad: An applicant tracking system. Joel: A job applicant tracking system. Yeah. And he helped oversee some acquisitions there, at least start the process. Chad: Yes. Joel: And now he's at a startup and probably knows a few money guys, and called those money guys and said, "Hey, why don't we go see what's up, see if there's an opportunity here." Chad: Could be. Could be. Joel: And our sources on the ground. Chad: Yes. [chuckle] Joel: Were like TMZ now. Chad: We're rumors. Yeah. We were getting all this, we were getting all this stuff from all of our sources. Rumor, again, there's an opportunity here. Will Dan actually prospectively take the CEO position knowing that PageUp's CEO more than likely wants to eject right now. Or at least that's what we're hearing from sources. I don't know about that. He might be on the ground for due diligence because he is an ATS CEO and he has background in that. Or could he be coming in as an advisor? Due diligence, advisory, that kind of thing. No matter what, when you've got a guy with that firepower making a world wind tour to Australia to be able to go through a... And again, this is speculation, might be coincidence, but that's fucking doubtful. What do you think? Joel: Unless he's got a pension that I have for blooming onions and a nice Foster's beer. Chad: I'm so sorry, Australians. Our friends in Australia. I'm sorry. Joel: Going to Australia and the time it takes to get there is not something that you would take lightly. So Dan right now, is at Filtered, who's raised $10 million. When he joined Jobvite, they were nobody. It was pretty shocking that someone that had been at Yahoo HotJobs would leave that to go to this little job by, it was social media. Chad: That's exciting though. Joel: Social media ATS was their pitch at the time. But Dan has these ways of joining small companies that you've never heard of, seeing promise, seeing a team that can make bigger things if they just add water. And maybe PageUp is the water that needs to be added to the company... Chad: Possibly. Joel: To make that happen. Chad: Possibly. Joel: My take was that, they were seven, eight years into the Battery Ventures money. That it was the road, the clock had run out. It was time that Battery Ventures wanted to get their money, that maybe they weren't doing as well. I think the ATS business is stressed. I think that it's tough right now to make a dollar. You normally are able to sell it on the down low where no one knows you're for sale. But to announce that we want to do this... Chad: Raise their hand. Joel: That is like, we're not getting enough buyers by the hush hush down low. We need to get a big, put a bigger net out there. So I still don't believe that PageUp is crushing it... Chad: No. Joel: And I think they are motivated sellers. And Dan or whoever comes in will get a fine property and if they can create efficiencies, build brand more globally or do something different, it could be the next Jobvite for sure, the new company or PageUp becomes something else. So I thought this was awesome, that we have people on the ground that see that, listen to the show, know who people are and like, "Hey, you guys might want to know about... Chad: Check this out. Joel: Dan Finnigan being in Australia. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. I mean, Australia is not a big enough market in itself from a growth standpoint for PE, right? Joel: No. Chad: You need to expand. They said they want to come to the US. Well, I have not seen them successfully coming to the US. Okay? So, again, Dan Finnigan, network. I don't know. Just trying to put all the dots together, kids. Joel: And by the way, he may know a few executives that want to get out of their current employer. Chad: Imagine that. Yes. Again, network man. Joel: And build a team similar to what Aaron has done at Paradox. By the way, speaking of consolidation. Chad: Yes. Joel: Knowing that Dan Finnigan and Aaron Matos are going to be on the hunt for new opportunities and acquisitions. It's going to be a fun time for the show. Chad: It will be. Joel: If that trend continues. Well, let's take another break. Chad: Okay. Joel: We'll come back and talk about our friends at Veritone. Chad: Got it. [music] Joel: Tony, Tony, Tony has done it again, Chad. Chad: Feels good. Joel: Jobiqo has relaunched the job network, touting itself as North America's largest recruitment ad network powered by their AI enabled job board platform and Veritone's programmatic ad distribution technology. Chad: Hello. Joel: Chad, there's a lot to unpack here. Your thoughts on the Veritone, Jobiqo job network marriage. Chad: Yeah, this is smart for both organizations easily. And first and foremost, Veritone, friend of the show, sponsor of the show. They've been fairly distressed lately. I mean, AI has taken a hit because of all the FAANG companies doing AI. And I mean... Joel: The stock is not going to the moon. Last time I checked. Chad: There's a ton of shit going on. Although, what does Veritone need? They need a bigger footprint. Need a bigger boat. We've always talked about this. This footprint is amazing because you're talking about like 150 plus job boards in North America plus the EU. So you've got all these, mainly dock region. But at the end of the day, man, your footprint grows. The EU is not as advanced with regard to programmatic as the US is. Although, for the Jobiqo side of the house, now they're evolving. And we've said that if job boards want to stay alive, they have to evolve. Amazing. You automatically have this programmatic performance based technology in your system. And you can offer it to every single, hundreds, thousands of job board clients. Joel: Sure. Chad: Press the button. Joel: Turnkey. Chad: And then Jobiqo, I guarantee you, has a transactional cut that they take off of it. Amazing. So they get their SaaS play, they get their transactional play. And who's the big brother of this thing? Joel: Veritone. Chad: Veritone is powering the whole fucking thing. So this, to me, again, is incredibly smart. Broadbean is in play, obviously, because of the acquisition of Veritone. So many moving parts. We've been talking really short-term that stock hasn't looked good. They have all the pieces to be able to make this work. And we've just been sitting back and saying, "What the fuck are they going to do?" This is, I think, big. Joel: Yeah. It could be for sure. And we'll keep our eye on it. The Job Network, and not to turn this into a nostalgic Aaron Matos edition of the Chad and Cheese podcast. But... Chad: Tell me a story. Joel: A guy named Scott Molitor started the Job Network way back in the day. Out of Milwaukee, built up these great domains that were all city focused, while Aaron was at Jobing in Arizona, getting all the state names and certainly rush for those local states. So the Job Network for a long time was just this juggernaut of SEO goodness, before Indeed came along and figured that out. Chad: Smashed it. Joel: They kind of owned any city jobs... Chad: Before Google changed the algorithm. Joel: Yeah, they just never kept up. Scott sold the company in 2016. Probably really good timing on his part... Chad: Yes. Joel: Because of the changes we've seen in the industry. But it has sort of been this dilapidated house just waiting for someone from the HGTV crew... Chad: It needed a refurb. Oh, yeah. Joel: Put in some new drywall, fresh coat of paint and really focus on what the business could be. And I think Veritone sees that opportunity. You and I knew early on about the Pando Veritone, the Broadbean Veritone kind of connection. And I think we saw what it could be. But we thought, like you said, they need a bigger boat. This is one of the few job board properties, networks, if you will, that they can plug and play, put our jobs through share revenue, we've got instant traffic. Now we have a line to Europe, which I think is maybe the most interesting part of the story. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: They need to SEO it, they need to like leverage every free option, social media, and the technology behind Veritone to create content, which I don't think they've even unlocked yet, to create content and video, to create content in multiple languages. Chad: Oh, God. Joel: If that opens up a whole new way... Chad: Voice. Joel: To drive traffic to these sites, that becomes pretty interesting. So... Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Our eyes gonna be on this. We know that our relationship with them, they'll keep us in tune to what's going on. But, yeah, this is one of the few moves you can see in the job board space these days, outside of Stepstone buying CareerBuilder and Monster... Chad: Not happening. Joel: Which I still contend... Chad: Is not happening. Joel: Will not happen until it does. This is definitely something something to watch. Chad: Well, and again, you talk about the SEO side of the house. So you've got Martin Lenz on the Jobiqo side of the house. They're going to be working that avenue. This is a divide and conquer type of scenario. And I love that, partnerships until you buy them. And that could happen, maybe not, I think in this point, working as two separate entities, as partners that know their shit, and they're incredibly focused and disciplined on their shit. I think it could be, it could be magic. And it could be magic for both of them. But mainly, first off for Jobiqo because all of these job board platforms that are out there are getting old and dusty. And I mean, there aren't a lot of really good up to date ones that are out there, Jobiqo is, it's top shelf. Will job boards start kicking over to their network and using this new tech instead? Joel: I think job postings are just the start. I mean, I could see where there's a pre-screening tool driven by Veritone AI, interviews... Chad: Wade and Wendy. Joel: Obviously chat, Wade and Wendy, does this chat come into play of I don't have a resume, it's a it's a warehouse job. Like Chatbot is right there to take your resume as a chat and a conversation. Chad: Answer some questions. Joel: It's mobile friendly. So I think this is just starting with posting jobs and getting more exposure for those jobs. I'm excited. This has been a fantastic show with a lot of optimism of companies... Chad: Good stuff. Joel: Doing really interesting things... Chad: Look at you not being dystopian. Joel: And we got to talk about blooming onions and Foster's and Australia. [laughter] Joel: There's a blackjack table and a lunch buffet calling my name. Chad, this has been a hell of a week. Another episode in the can, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

In this episode of the podcast, the boys dive deep into the world of talent strategy and employee satisfaction with Dr. Jim Kanichirayil, VP of growth at EngageRocket, researcher, writer, podcaster, and a seasoned professional in the tech industry. Dr. Jim sheds light on the dissatisfaction brewing among workers within traditional employment structures, pointing towards the rise of freelance work and the gig economy as potential alternatives. We explore the phenomenon known as the "Great Resignation" and its lasting impact on the workforce, uncovering underlying issues like stagnant wages, layoffs, and limited career growth opportunities. The financial toll of attrition on organizations is also brought to the forefront, highlighting the significant costs associated with replacing employees. As Chad and Joel question why talent acquisition professionals aren't taking more proactive measures to address retention and productivity concerns, Dr. Jim suggests that short-term fixes often take precedence over long-term talent management strategies. He stresses the crucial role of effective leadership and managerial support in retaining employees. Throughout the discussion, we delve into key aspects of employee retention and development, including brand integrity, onboarding processes, and the importance of clear communication. Dr. Jim draws parallels between corporate practices and military training, emphasizing the need for continuous learning and development. We also explore shifting attitudes towards stability and career paths among different generations, advocating for a more flexible and entrepreneurial approach to career management. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the importance of organizational adaptation to meet the evolving expectations and aspirations of employees, fostering long-term engagement and loyalty. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Awww yeah, it's Sean Carter's favorite podcast, aka the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel. Joined as always, the Beyonce to my Jay-Z... Chad: Yes. Joel: Chad is in the house. Help us welcome now Dr. Jim Kanichirayil, VP of Growth at Engage Rocket. He's a researcher, writer, podcaster, and just let us know, a proud Gen Xer. Dr. J, welcome to the podcast. Chad: Feral, feral Gen Xer, not just a Gen Xer. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, you forgot the feral part. [laughter] Yeah, thanks for having me out. I'm looking forward to this conversation. I've been a fan of your show for quite a while, and it's a lot of fun being on the guest side, because... Chad: Oh, go on, go on. Joel: Say more. Chad: Yeah, say more. How much do you own? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: We can start talking about the people in the HR and TA tech space that we want to kneecap, [laughter] but I don't think that's going to be an appropriate course of conversation for us. Chad: But it's fun, Jim. It is so cathartic just to be able to get out there what you really feel sometimes, which is why this podcast is so much fun. But we'll go in a different direction right now. So, tell listeners a little bit about yourself. Give us a Twitter bio. Who is Dr. Jim? When you get in nice, this soul-searching, who is Dr. Jim? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, that's an interesting question, [laughter] and it's always difficult to answer. I think in a lot of ways I can describe myself as your friendly neighborhood talent strategy nerd, [laughter] because that's typically how I open my shows. But in general, people in my circle know me as the guy that has 15 jobs, so I've spent a lot of time in the talent space. I've been a recruiter. I've always been in startup or accelerating growth organizations on the tech side, either on the talent acquisition side or TA tech or HR tech, and that's kind of where I'm at right now. I've been married for a long time, have three meathead sons [laughter] who are going to make me lose more of my hair as they get older. And beyond that, the details of my life are pretty inconsequential. [laughter] Joel: I'll add that he's showing us up from a podcaster's sort of pissing match. He has a neon sign in the back with Dr. Jim, and he has a light ring, which I can see in his glasses. So, he is showing us up already. You better bring the hurt, my friend. Chad: We're not even on video, okay? We're not even on video. [laughter] Joel: With the purple, with like the pink. And, yeah, very ace. Chad: No, it's good stuff. Yeah, up your game, Cheeseman. Up your game, Jesus. Joel: I'm kidding. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, it keeps the attention on my giant five head, [laughter] so there's that... Chad: Well, this is... I mean, it's good for TikTok, right? Because we're three Gen Xers, and I believe, and I don't know how much Cheeseman is posting yet, but I believe we're all three on TikTok. Is that correct? Are you on, Cheeseman? You're on putting stuff up, aren't you? Joel: Only because we do video, kicking and screaming. [laughter] The only thing I post are you and our show. Chad: Okay, okay. So, what about you, Dr. Jim? How often are you posting on TikTok as a feral Gen Xer? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, so that can be a bit of a problem because I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and TikTok. So, typically on TikTok I'm posting three, four times a day. Joel: God. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: I'm also on YouTube as well. And part of my strategy from just an exposure perspective is just to have much more custom content across all of my channels and grow all three at once. I'm doing the work once, so it just makes sense for me to populate it across the channels that I happen to spend a lot of time on. Chad: Agreed, agreed. Okay, let's go ahead and get into today's subject. Joel: Four times a day. Chad: Joel, he eats at least three times a day. That's the only thing he does three times a day. Joel: I'm never going that deep. [laughter] Chad: So, the great resignation is officially over. So, tell the listeners why we're going to be talking about attrition today, Dr. Jim. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, it's interesting that you phrase it that way because I would make the argument that the great resignation isn't over. Chad: It's all over the papers, man. They're all saying it's over. Don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. [laughter] Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, I mean, I don't know how to process that. I mean, I think when you look at employee sentiment across the board, I think it's safe to say that most of the working class, and if you have a job, you're in the working class, it doesn't really matter like how much you're bringing home unless you're one of those overpaid CEOs who... Chad: Don't get me started. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Anyways. Joel: Don't get him started. [laughter] Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, don't get me started either. I would make the argument that the broader workforce, especially in the US context is deeply dissatisfied with the nature of work, and it's evidenced by a lot of what you see in terms of the shifts to the gig economy. You see more and more folks out of the millennial and Gen Z class, and you'll continue to see this. Those folks are moving to more of a freelance type work because the contract, or at least the agreement that we feral Gen Xers were brought up with where you have an employer-employee agreement, that's all a bunch of crap, [laughter] and what you see now... Chad: We got suckered. Is that what you're saying? We got suckered? [laughter] Joel: It's a load of malarkey. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah. [laughter] If I say malarkey, I'm going to go like... Joel: We're sending it to the retirement home, if you say malarkey on this show. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, that's not something that's natural to me, but when you look at what's happening in the broader world of work, and you have so many layoffs that seem to make no sense, and to sit there and make the argument that the great resignation is over, I don't think it's over. I think it's going to continue, and you're going to see some pretty significant shifts in how employees in the working class view the world of work, and what role work and career has in their life going forward, unless some pretty significant things change. Joel: When you say the layoffs don't make sense to you, I'm going to push back on that a little bit. They make a lot of sense to me. Meta just reported their quarterly earnings, their year of efficiency. They've gone from like 187k employees to 167k. It seemed to work out for them. More efficiency, less headcount, we're still productive, we're better than ever, so tell me why they don't make sense. Oh, by the way, the stock is up 20% in a day. So, I'd say a few shareholders say that it's working. Why do you say it's not, or it doesn't make sense? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, no. I mean, I think that's a great point, Joel, and I think that my comment depends on the lens that you're looking at that statement from. Joel: Okay. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: If you're looking at it from the perspective of maximizing shareholder value, that makes great sense. If you're an acolyte of the Jack Welch School of Business, that makes great sense because the number one responsibility for business, or the Friedman School as well, number one responsibility of business is to maximize profits and shareholder value. So, in that lens, it makes absolute sense. But when you look at the same data points that you just mentioned, and you look at it or view that from the perspective of the average worker, you have record profits that are happening, that are going on. You have all of the stock prices that are going through the roof. And yet, you have the broader political and business landscape that is unwilling to do anything when it comes to the compensation structures in terms of how workers are paid. I mean, we saw this play out with the UAW strike. You've seen this play out in the discussions about the minimum wage. You've seen this play out over and over again, where workers are being told repeatedly that your role in life is to continue feeding our bottom line. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And then when we're tired of you, or when you reach a level that is beyond our willingness to pay, we're going to get rid of you and bring in the next class in. That's where it doesn't make sense. For a typical employee to be able to see the numbers where they are from a macroeconomic perspective, a balance sheet perspective, a stock price perspective, and then be told we don't have money for raises, we don't have money to shift you to other verticals within our organization to bring you up in skills. And if you get too lippy, we're just going to replace you with AI. So, go pound sand. So, this is where it doesn't make sense. Chad: One of the things that gets me, and I think Joel was just... He was putting that out there because that's how most Americans think. And that's how we've been trained to think, quarter to quarter, right? Incredibly short-sighted. We're worried about how the stock hits tomorrow, as opposed to the ability of the company to grow long-term, right? Sustainable growth. Also didn't mention that they just cut all the bullshit VR that they were spending millions of dollars on, right? So, there are a ton of different things. It wasn't just associated to one thing. Although, the media would want you to think that, "Oh, look, it's all about efficiency." That's total bullshit. They were spending money on a bunch of shit in the first place. I'm going to jump back to attrition. An internal memo from Amazon was leaked that said Amazon had lost $8 billion to the bottom line due to attrition. How do we start thinking about attrition, bottom line, upward mobility, retention, and how all of that actually goes to more productivity and more profits, as opposed to the short-sightedness that Joel was throwing out there? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: So, that's a really good question. And I don't think there's any one answer to that question. But if we're talking from a dollars and cents perspective, I think it's important to know, and I don't know if a lot of people actually are zoned in on this. For every instance that you have in your organization where somebody leaves, they weren't fired. They just left. You, as somebody that's watching the books in the organization, are going to burn through 250% of their annual salary, their first year annual salary in replacement costs. So, there's hard and soft costs that you are incurring because you've created an environment that's basically created a revolving door in your organization. I call it the talent attraction hamster wheel. The common complaint within organizations is we can't find enough people. And the answer to that question is multifold. I mean, where are you looking? Who are you looking for? Do you have a profile that you've defined as the ideal profile? And how realistic is that compared to what's out there in terms of overall talent? That's one part of the equation. But the other part of the equation is, who internally is looking to grow and expand their skills? And how are we positioning those people to take on these roles within our organization? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And the reason why I ask that question is when you look historically at the number or volume or percentages of internal moves or internal promotions, that's usually been around 20% of the workforce. So, if you're only presenting internal roles to... And making them available and creating this matrixed organization where people can freely move across functions, and that's only being presented at 20% of your employee landscape, that's a lot of sunk costs that you've invested in those employees that you're not utilizing, and you're actually increasing the risk that those employees leave because they see no path within the organization to grow internally. And employees aren't stupid. If the new person comes into the organization and is making $20,000, $30,000 more than what I was making in that same role, it's a pretty straightforward decision for that internal employee on how they can maximize their own income. And basically, this is, not to go on about it, I think organizations and leaders within organizations have fundamentally downplayed the value of institutional knowledge and experience within their own doors, which leads to this constant churn and this constant waste of money. Chad: Well, because it's all focused on the margin, right? I mean, we actually talk about if you can cut a boomer or an Xer and you can hire a couple of Gen Zs, hell, they'll make up whatever the boomer does or the Gen Xer does. And at the end of the day, that's just not... Again, you need to have the experience to be able to get things done in efficiencies. But the big question is, in talent acquisition, why are we not tying attrition and quit rates to productivity and then tying that productivity to the bottom line? Because we heard in the news over and over and over, when quit rates were high that we were having issues with productivity, but they were trying to tie that to remote work. They were trying to tie that to remote work. So, why, as an industry, talent acquisition, why are we not driving the narrative? Because we are not. Let's face it, kids, we are not driving the narrative, the business narrative. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: I don't have a direct line of sight into answering that question, but I think the way that I would approach it is that it's a difficult linkage to make. It's easy to draw the line between time to fill, onboarding, and all that sort of stuff. When you're asking the question, why isn't talent acquisition making the case that we should be emphasizing development and retention? At some level, that's not their job. You have to look at the broader leadership within the organization and especially the HR function to make that case. And I don't think those conversations are happening nearly enough at all levels of the organization, plus it's complex. I mean, what's an easier problem to solve? We can ask the question, how do we do a better job of developing our people? How do we do a better job of retaining our people? And there's probably 15, 20 different ways that you can impact those two elements. And you compare that to, how do we find more people? How do we get more people to apply? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: The way to get more people to apply, the way to find more people, that's a much more linear, less complex argument that you can make. So, we focus on the things that's easier to solve, the "low-hanging fruit," even though finding the right people is pretty damn complex too, because I've been on that side of it. It's not easy, but from an executive's perspective, how many CEOs have come through a talent acquisition pathway into a sizable organization? I think there's a level of blindness at that level to what is involved in the HR function when you look at people strategy in general. That's just my thought. I don't know how well that's borne out in the actual numbers of what's out there. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Do you define turnover and attrition differently? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: So, I take the approach of this, there's voluntary turnover, there's involuntary turnover. And I made the distinction when I was doing my doc, and I don't want to go, like, have people's eyes glaze over. [laughter] Voluntary turnover is when somebody that you value in the organization decides to leave. Involuntary turnover is, theoretically, they weren't good at their job, so you have to get rid of them. Getting rid of non-performers is a good thing. Now, you can make the argument and ask the question, "Well, how can we get more of our non-performers to a level of competency where they're adding value to the organization?" That's a different question. But you always want to cycle through those "misfit candidates," those candidates that aren't aligned with your organization. You want to uncover those quickly and then move them out. But the vast majority of organizations aren't doing a good job of keeping the people that they want either. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And the reason being, look at it this way. If you look at surveys over the years and you measure, like, The Top Five Reasons Why Somebody is Going to Leave an Organization, two out of those top five are going to be driven from specifically manager-related issues. Manager is not good, or the culture is bad, which is also a function of managers. But what are organizations doing to solve that? How are they equipping frontline managers to really be the connective tissue that keeps the people at the line level in the organization? They're not. Most of the time, your line-level managers, your second-line-level managers, they get promoted into those roles and they have to figure stuff out on their own. And oftentimes, they're just high performers that rose to those ranks. And then they're basically saying, "Well, this worked for me, so I'm just going to show you how I do it. Now, do it my way." That's where you get a lot of conflict. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And when you talk about your question about is there a difference between attrition and retention, I think it was what you asked. I don't talk in those terms. There's productive retention and there's unproductive retention, so voluntary turnover and involuntary turnover. And I think what you need to do is focus on how good of a job can you do within your organization to keep as many of your productive employees as possible for as long as possible. The bumper sticker version of that is cheaper to keep them, so why aren't you doing a better job of that? Joel: To me, that starts with your brand. That starts before anyone actually first applies. So, talk about your brand. Obviously, I would say that if you keep people and they're happy and they write good reviews, that's a good brand. And that's going to spill into your customer service. That's going to spill into your marketing. And that's going to obviously spill into your recruiting. So, talk about some of the steps. Brand is one. I'm sure onboarding, the hiring and recruiting process. Talk about the lifespan of what's important in keeping more employees. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: So, there's a couple of things that I want to pull out on this. So, if we're looking at the entire employee life cycle and you want to optimize it for development and retention, one of the biggest ways that you can do that is looking at what's the story that your organization is telling. And Joel, you talked about brand. But brand is beyond more than just something that you say. It's me as a candidate. Can I look into your organization and look across all levels of the organization and see people like me who are at those levels? And can I, at a quick glance, see that they have staying power and stickiness to the organization? So, brand is not something that you just say. You have to actually live in your organization. You need to speak to that just on the talent attraction side. Then when you actually interview and hire people, that needs to flow all the way through that process as well. And I think one of the big gaps that happens, and I'm approaching this from the context of professional hiring, because that's the world that I come from. So, when we're talking IT, white-collar jobs is generally the lens that I'm talking from. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: When you look at that lens and you wanna optimize for development and retention, while your interviews have to be set up that way, where you have those folks represented in your interview panels, but the big element that you need to be focused on is, what's your onboarding process look like. When you look at retention outcomes, that new hires, onboarding experience plays a massive role on whether you're gonna be able to retain them beyond that first year or not, and one of the interesting things that Yasmeen Duncan, who is the Chief People Officer at Magnolia foods, what she mentioned was that people leaders at all levels, when they have a new hire into their organization, they should be applying the PIP upfront concept in the onboarding process, and when we say PIP, everybody automatically saying, Oh, that sounds crap. No. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: It's really... You need to be crystal clear and gaining agreement with the person that's sitting across from you, what are the job expectations, what are the work styles that I prefer, what are the work styles that you prefer, how do we work through our cadence so that we're deeply aligned on what the job expectations are, what the outcomes are, and all of the stuff down the line, and that's really not happening in a lot of organizations, and then you see this experience where six months down the line, a new hire is floundering, and then we're starting with the progressive discipline or wherever to kind of improve performance. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And by that time, it's too late. So, if you're looking at optimizing for development and retention, one of the big issues is that we're not clear upfront on what the environment is, we're not clear on what the expectations are, we're not clear on what the outcomes are, and we're not actually sitting across from our employees and having those conversations and demonstrating that we care about their success, we talk about caring about their success, but we're not actually putting it into action. Chad: Well, it's interesting, in the military, we have what we call an AAR, so after every task or every mission or what have you, we do an after action review, which is one of those. Did we meet expectations? What happened? You're going through the pretty much the entire mission training session, whatever it might be, but it's continuous learning, and that's one of the things that the military does so much better than corporate America is shit at, is we constantly training and it's a two-thirds, one-third. We're training in prepping two-thirds of the time to be able to get ready for that one-third, and it doesn't seem... And again, the military is more focused on leadership. I went through more leadership schools in my 20 years in the military, then most CEOS and Fortune 500 companies have ever even thought of going through. Chad: Is because it's the part of the actual DNA of what they need in their people, whether they leave in four years or whatnot, so it's interesting now, whether you're good at it or not, that's an entirely different story, but it's like it's ingrained in the process, but why is corporate America, is it just too many resources, it takes up too much time. They just don't think it's worth it. I don't understand why it's not a part of every single corporate structure. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: That's a great question, and I wanna draw back to your experience of the after action report, so I've never served so I can't speak from it from a direct perspective, but that is a great best practice, and it's something that needs to be brought into the corporate world but what you often hear, and I empathize with line level managers because they're often under-resourced and over-staffed, meaning you have one line level manager that's supposed to like oversee and position 15, 20 people for success. So, what are those line level managers reduced to? They're reduced to a list of tasks that they need to check off, are these things done? Are these things done? So, you become a task manager and you reference leadership versus being an actual people leader, so if we look at what your core responsibility is, your responsibility as a line manager is to develop other leaders within your organization and build depth, but if you're never really coaching at that level, and you're constantly tied to just a checklist of things that need to get done in the day, how often are you having those conversations, those coaching and development conversations that demonstrate your commitment to that individual on the team and demonstrates your care for their development and your care for their career path. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: It doesn't happen. And oftentimes, you ask any manager, How's your day, Oh, I've been busy, I've been busy, I'm super busy. Everybody's busy, but the question becomes, What are you focusing your attention on, and I think Chad, you and Joel both referenced this early in the conversation, which is that short-term thinking has reduced us to taking a task-level view on everything that needs to be done from a people, strategy perspective, instead of a development view. And here's where I bring that in. You talk to any individual contributor within an organization, you ask them the question, how does the job that you do serve the broader mission of the organization or the team, and they're gonna look at you more often than not, like you have a horn coming out of your forehead, because why managers are not connecting those dots, they're not tying how the work accomplishes the broader mission vision goals of the organization. Chad: They're not trained to. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, they're not trained to. Chad: They probably don't know. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, they don't. And the interesting part about that is, I talk to executives and senior leaders all the time about this particular issue, and they say, Yeah, it's a massive issue, we don't have enough leadership capabilities at our line level managers, and I ask the question, Well, why is that? And what happens? Oh, we're getting dragged in a fire fighting all the time, and this is from the senior and the executive level, we're fire-fighting all the time. So, what are you doing to fix that? And you don't really get it much in terms of answers, you might see like, Oh, we got this tool in place. Well a tool alone isn't gonna solve anything if you have a crap process, and if you don't really have the broader people strategy along side of it, and then you throw a tool against it, it's just gonna make whatever process that you have that's already bad, worse. So, it's how are you taking the information that you're getting from your tech stack into actionable things that actually build the leadership capability at all levels of the organization. And especially focused on centering what you're doing to the broader benefit and career aspirations of that line-level individual. That's the gap that isn't being met. Joel: You mentioned tools, and listeners of our show know that there is no shortage of tools to help you engage employees, not even getting into upscaling, but just engaging, making them feel good. Are those tools working? You mentioned it doesn't work unless you have the foundation to make it work, but in your experience, whether it's 15Five, Culture Amp, I think you own our organization, are companies coming... Are they saying like, these tools are great. They're working. They're amazing. Or is it like, No, another tool it doesn't work. What are you hearing? Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: I'm hearing the latter. Let me give you some context. Here's the problem, and I come from this world, so I'm gonna say some things, it's probably gonna irritate the hell out of a lot of people. Joel: Good. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Like the company I work for is a people analytics platform, so employee engagement, performance management, all that sort stuff. And the problem that exists in the broader world of tech, HR tech, TA tech, whatever, is that we as sellers within that world have been conditioned to believe that our specific tool can solve whatever problem that exists in the world of anybody that we talk to, and that's a big freaking problem because no tool is gonna solve anything, a tool can enable you one way or another, if you have a crap process, a tool can make that crap process, crappier. If you have a good process in place and you have a good people in place, then that tool is gonna enable you to take to that next level. And the reason why I mention this is that there are so many organizations that I've talked to who have more than one platform in place that's supposed to solve the same thing, and I'm not gonna call out any specific ones, but it seems to be prevalent in a lot of organizations where you'll have duplication of products and capabilities in the same environment and you have people saying, Well, none of this works, why did you get that second platform because the first one didn't work. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Well, it's not the platform's issue. You were sold into something, but did you really look at your people and your process and if that's on solid footing to take it to the next level, and I think that's the piece that gets missed. Technology like I look at it as a neutral entity, if you're not sorted on your people and process side, you're gonna have problems putting technology into that because it's just gonna make whatever you have worse. Chad: Well, it's short-sighted. Again, we're looking at things trying to hit the easy button on something that's not easy to fix. Yeah, so it's literally the behavior that we've bought into, and then you have vendors that are selling you the easy button, which is exactly what everybody wants to hear, and the next thing you know, it's just not as easy as you think it is. Joel: I don't know, it sounds like he's saying there's a chance. S?: 60% of the time, it works. Every time. Chad: Not 60%. Joel: Dr. Jay you got... I'm on the ledge, man, you're bumping me out, I'm gonna try to save this on an optimistic note, all the surveys and research that I'm seeing says that Gen Z loves security. They love stability. Maybe it's the pandemic, maybe it's just whatever. But is there hope that the Gen Z generation will embrace sort of loyalty? Stay at companies more often, like, give me something to hold on to. Here, Dr. J. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah, you're seeing the people's eyebrow come up to that statement, so it's an interesting statement that you make and question that you ask, and when I think about that question, I would agree with you under this context, unlike Gen X and maybe even some older millennials, Gen Z are truly taking the CEO mindset to heart, and specifically they're taking the CEO mindset from the perspective of you're the CEO of your own career, and you need to prioritize what's important to you and your development. So, if that mindset, which means I'm not gonna be pot-committed to one employer and one job function and one salary as my pathway to security. I'm gonna look at all the different things that I can do in my skill sets and see how I can monetize that and really look at turning that into multiple revenue streams or products for myself as a professional. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: And I think that's the way forward, and I tend to agree with that mindset that if you're in the world of work and you want to make yourself relevant until the day you decide you don't wanna work anymore, you should be looking at what are the skills and capabilities that I have and how can I monetize that across a number of different avenues so that I'm never overly committed to one income stream, and that's in stark contrast with what the broader corporate world tells us, they're still operating with that boomer mindset that, hey, you graduate, we're a family, we treat everybody great and blah, blah, blah, you'll be here until you retire, well, they still operate under that mindset, and at the same time, they will whack you tomorrow if earnings report doesn't look the way that it needs to look, so hats off to Gen Z for being not as stupid as Gen X are. Chad: Yeah, well so stability in and what I'm hearing, and what we've heard from a couple of people have we talked to thus far, is that the stability means something different to the generations. The boomers idea of stability is way much different than what Gen Z's look at, what stability is. They're not the same thing. That's what I'm hearing. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: Yeah. And the perfect example, so this is an interesting... And that's an interesting point that you bring out, Chad, because my mom and I have the same conversation, so we're Generation Zero immigrants. I wasn't born in the US, and my mom is from the boomer generation, and she can't wrap her head around like what my actual job is. I often say that I have 15 different jobs and I'm involved in a lot of different things. And she's like, This is a terrible accident impression of her, but she'll go time, Jimmy why don't you get a nice government job? It'll be stable. I'm like, Why would I wanna do that? So, that mindset still exists in the world of work where we were all taught Be the CEO of your own career, but what was the meaning of that when we were coming up in the world of work, the meaning of that was, you're beholden to the an employer and you just do whatever you can to stay employed there, and the real meaning of being a CEO of your own career is actually monetizing all the different skills that you have and try to be as much of a stand-alone corporation as you can. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: So, you're never overly committed to one pathway, and that actually puts you in a constant development mindset, and I think organizations would be well served to look at what's happening in younger Gen X-ers, millennials, Gen Z, and how they're approaching the world of work and bake that in to their organizational strategy, how can we get eight hours out of you for this particular job while still giving you the ability to capitalize on all these other aspects of your skill set that gives you the type of freedom that you want, and I think that's probably the way forward and the way organizations need to look at it, if they're really intentional or care about keeping their employees longer is to adopt that mindset that it's not, Hey, you work for us, it's how can we help you get to the things that are important to you? And take you to the next level and whatever your vision is for yourself. Joel: That's Dr. Jim. Can we cheer all everybody, Dr. J, for our listeners who wanna connect with you, where do you send them? Chad: TikTok. Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: No. Actually, the easiest place to find me is on LinkedIn, so I'm always active there. You can find me on TikTok. You look for the cascading leadership handle on TikTok and you can find me there. But LinkedIn is the best way. Joel: Chad another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

Dive into the irreverent world of talent acquisition with Michael Goldberg, the Senior Director of TA and Sourcing at US Renal Care, on The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Recorded live from TA Week, this episode is not your typical HR talk. Michael, with over two decades in the recruiting game, shares his unfiltered take on balancing tech and human touch in the industry. Expect a mix of hard-hitting insights, candid anecdotes, and a good dose of humor as Michael talks about transforming decent recruiters into exceptional ones, all while navigating the AI-dominated future of hiring. From snarky remarks to deep dives into the soul of recruiting, this episode is a rollercoaster ride through the highs and lows of talent acquisition. Tune in for an episode that's as much about laughs as it is about learning. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up, everybody? It's Marshall Mathers' favorite podcast, aka The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined, as always, the Thelma to my Louise, Chad Sowash... Chad: Yes. Joel: Is in the house. And we are recording live from TA Week, the Qualified Booth, and we are with Michael Goldberg, Senior Director of TA and Sourcing... Chad: Where? Joel: At US Anal Care. Did I get that right? [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: No. Still not right. It is US Renal Care. Joel: Renal Care. Chad: Renal Care. Michael Goldberg: Renal care. Joel: Renal, anal. Okay. Michael Goldberg: Well, there's a difference. Chad: Joel projects a lot. Let's just... Let's say that. [chuckle] Joel: I'm stuck in dark places, let's put it that way. Let's put it that way. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Yeah, that's all right. That's all right. No. US Renal Care, it's, in the scheme of things, the third largest set of dialysis clinics. We're a billion-dollar company. Chad: Wow. Joel: I get it. You're saving lives, and I'm an asshole for making a joke. I get it. I get it. I get it. [overlapping conversation] Chad: Yes. Yeah. Everybody knows that anyway. That's why they listen. [chuckle] Michael Goldberg: My grandfather died of diabetes four days after my parents got married. [overlapping conversation] Joel: Oh here we go, just stick the knife in. Michael Goldberg: No, it's called the Jewish guilt trip. Joel: Oh, okay. [laughter] Michael Goldberg: That's what that was. Joel: Let's pivot off the guilt trips for a second. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Yes, sir. Joel: Michael, some of our listeners don't know you. Chad: What? Michael Goldberg: No. Joel: Give them the elevator pitch. Michael Goldberg: All right. So my name is Michael Goldberg, and I've been in the recruiting space for, let's just say, 20-plus years, 10 years of HR behind that. Joel: Hello. Michael Goldberg: And my goal is to go into organizations, either mostly full-time, but I've also done contract where I go in and I turn non-producers into producers. I find technology for companies to make them better, faster, more productive. And then finally, I measure. I do a lot of data analytics for the companies that I've done, that I've worked for. And so, yeah, so I believe I bring a lot of tools to the table. And you guys always share great stuff on your podcast. I'm not saying that just to kiss up... [overlapping conversation] Joel: Aw. Chad: Aw. Joel: Say more. Chad: I love this. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Yes. No, it's true. It's true. You guys make it real. Besides animal, you guys make it more real 'cause it's, you know, it's animal. Chad: Is he still... Is he still alive? [overlapping conversation] Joel: I'll take it. I'll take it. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: He is. Chad: Is he still doing some... [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Oh, no, no. Yeah. Chad: Really? Michael Goldberg: In Toronto. Joel: Not incarcerated yet. Michael Goldberg: Not yet. [overlapping conversation] Chad: I didn't know that. I've no clue. I've no clue. Michael Goldberg: No, he's in Toronto. Chad: So what brings you to TA Week? Is this your first TA Week? How many times have you been here? Michael Goldberg: This is my first time live in San Diego. Chad: Okay. Michael Goldberg: And I just finished up my keynote speaker about how to go from being a good recruiter to a great recruiter, and not relying on AI to do your job for you, but what you need to be doing productively: Being curious, being gritty, knowing your business, knowing the financial acumen of your business, being able to talk that business. And then finally, manage your X with a sense of urgency, and quit giving up so easily just because you can't find them on Indeed or LinkedIn. Chad: [laughter] Well, pretty soon, they're gonna get kicked off LinkedIn 'cause it's gonna be too damn expensive. Now, quick question though. Because you're talking about using technology to not get lazy but to do your job more super enhanced... Michael Goldberg: Effectively. I think productivity is probably the better word, right? So that's what AI does for me, is it helps me to get the thinking of ideas. And then there's something, I don't know if you guys have tried this out, but I strongly recommend it. I'm not getting paid to say this, but it's called EQBuddy. It's new. Do y'all know Marcus Sawyer? He's in the recruiting space, was a sourcer, lives in California. He created an AI tool just for recruiting... Chad: Yeah? Michael Goldberg: And I'm starting to play around with it. It actually produces some pretty good information. Chad: So question, 'cause everybody's talking about or at least we've had people talk about, recruiter's jobs gonna be gone. Michael Goldberg: No. Chad: This is all gonna be... This is gonna be processed out. Everything's gonna be done through, not just AI, but through better processes, technology, and so on and so forth. What say you, Michael Goldberg? Michael Goldberg: AI will not replace people. Chad: Okay. Michael Goldberg: AI is a tool to help recruiters and recruiting leaders and social, I guess employer brand folks, be more productive and to cut out some of the, "Let me reinvent the wheel," right? Because that's what everybody says. "Well, I wanna come up with the best thing." Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: And so they're gonna try to use AI to give them the information and make them look like a superstar. And I say, people can see through that B-S. What you shouldn't be using it for, and I have a feeling that people are using it for, is to make human decisions; to decide on candidates, putting the resume in, two resumes and say, pick the better candidate. Chad: But we've had platforms out there that have done that for years. We've had applicant tracking systems that have scoring. This is before the "AI revolution" that's been happening, right? So this isn't new, Michael. We've been trying to... [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: No, it's not. Chad: We've been trying to do this shit for years. So what makes this different? Because, again, we've been ranking candidates wrong or right for years. How is this any different? Michael Goldberg: It's different in that, again, it's about productivity. And I think it's able to pull information faster, where back in the day when we were... We'd put A or B or C, or no or yes or no. We'd write those on, not on the resumes, but somewhere... Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: Where you knew who to pick. Does that mean, what? 10 years ago, 15 years ago? Now AI is, I think you leave resumes out of it and it's just, "Hey, give me the latest BLS stats from XYZ. If I need to compare something to my data, if I need a national... And that's what I think it's for. It just, to me, it brings it up faster, but you have to... You take the data for what it is. And I still think there's just some human brain work that you have to do. We can't... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Let me push back on that a little bit. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: Yeah, please. Joel: Because I buy into the statement of, "AI won't take your job, but someone who understands AI will take your job." Layoffs are happening. Companies are doing more with less. And if we have more robo-recruiters, if you will, cyborg recruiters... [laughter] Joel: Don't we need less recruiters? I understand the recruiting profession will be around, but don't you need less of them? Or are we gonna bring back all the unemployed recruiters back to recruiting? Michael Goldberg: I'm worried for the people that are looking right now, because you're right. I think that there will be some form of robo- some tool invented. [overlapping conversation] Joel: Augmented recruiter. Michael Goldberg: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: Whatever it is, right? Chad: Oh, they're out there already. There are platforms out there now that are talking about being able to at least cut the recruiter job around 80%. Michael Goldberg: Well, we're here in the Qualify Booth, or humanly or whatever... You're able to ask quite online questions by using your phone. Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: And to me, yes, that replaces things, but to me, what I don't think is gonna go away is the conversations that recruiters need to have with candidates to get specific questions. Because I know of an interesting thing that I'm not gonna talk about who, where somebody did an interview and it was an AI chatbot. Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: The candidate was the AI chatbot. Joel: Yeah. Chad: [chuckle] Yeah. Oh, yeah. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: And was able to hack into the system, record the system. Chad: Yes. Yeah. It's gonna happen on both sides. Michael Goldberg: Yes. There will be less recruiters doing the work... Joel: Okay. Michael Goldberg: But I still believe that the good ones that are... The ones that are working, and no disrespect to the people that aren't working, but AI will take those retail jobs, fast food jobs, nurses, social workers, dieticians, which are in our world, IT people, I don't think it will replace those people. I think it's, you're better off using a bot to help you recruit where you always... For Christmas or holiday time recruiting, I think that's where it's gonna flourish. Joel: Okay. So the cream will rise in your future. And if you're just some hack taking notes and... [laughter] Joel: Phone calls, your life is short in this profession. Michael Goldberg: I believe so. Joel: Is that a good summary? Okay. Michael Goldberg: That's a great summary. Chad: So in today's landscape where you're talking about building great recruiters, what is that number one priority that a great recruiter needs to focus on? On tasks or whatever it is, what do they need to focus on first? Michael Goldberg: Tangibly? Chad: Yes. Michael Goldberg: To me, in my world, what I always try to do is, I want my recruiters working on the positions that have been open the longest and there is still a need to recruit. 'Cause we ask, we'll say, "Hey, do you still... " The recruiter will say, "Do you still need the job?" Yes, we do. So if I see a position that is more than 60 days old, I'm on my recruiters saying, "This is a priority. You need to fill at least half of them." I did that two weeks ago where I've got... I had a couple of people that had 11, 12 positions that have been open on average of 120-plus days. One of my recruiters, shout-out, Natasha, filled eight of those 11 jobs in two weeks, because she knew what she had to do. She made it a priority. She went out and sourced. She used her curiosity to build search strings and bring people in. She didn't wait around for them to apply. And that's the other thing. If there are recruiters that are still waiting for people to apply, no... [laughter] Michael Goldberg: It's not gonna be around anymore. Joel: And that's not good for job boards. Michael Goldberg: No, it's not. Joel: Okay. Okay. Michael Goldberg: No it is not. Joel: So let's talk about sourcing for a second. [overlapping conversation] Chad: Depends on where they're sourcing. They could be sourcing from job boards. Michael Goldberg: Indeed. Chad: They could be sourcing from... Joel: I see what you did there with the Indeed comment. Chad: LinkedIn... Michael Goldberg: You like that? [laughter] Chad: Leading the witness. Joel: Let's talk about sourcing real quick. LinkedIn, by all accounts, is putting a stranglehold, a walled garden, a huge moat to kill the competition, funnel people into its platform sort of exclusively. They're redacting certain things now. It's becoming harder to source. And my contention is, the freaks and geeks of the sourcing world back in '05, right? The Shelly's, the Steve... [laughter] Michael Goldberg: I remember. Yeah, yeah. Joel: You know the group I'm talking about. They were sort of pushed in the background when all the sourcing tools came out: The hire tools, the HiringSolved. Now that LinkedIn has sufficiently strangled those businesses to death, are we gonna see a rise of the sourcing? You said Boolean strings, which kind of... [laughter] Michael Goldberg: It's old school. Joel: It caught my attention. Are we gonna go back to the future with sourcing, and the freaks and geeks are gonna kind of take over that world again? Michael Goldberg: That's a great question. I don't know. I think there's a possibility of that, but there's still a lot of information out there. There's still so many tools out there, that you don't have to rely on LinkedIn... Chad: But we do. Joel: Certain do. Michael Goldberg: Do you know what Steve Levy calls it? It's the OxyContin for recruiters. Chad: No, I totally get it. I totally get it. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: It's terrible, terrible reference. Chad: It's a heroin drip. I mean... [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: It is totally a drip. Chad: Yes. Michael Goldberg: And so I think it, you will have... It'll force recruiters and sourcers to start picking up the phone more... Joel: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: And try it once... 'Cause now that we can find that contact information, I know LinkedIn's gonna allegedly squeeze out the fact that they're not gonna be able to share their data or sell their... They're not gonna work with SeekOut or hireEZ. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: They'll be somebody else that comes around and work around and says, "Let me pull more information from different sources other than LinkedIn." Because in my world, LinkedIn... Joel: Well, there's no incentive to launch a company that does that. It's gonna be the individual rogue, smart recruiter... Michael Goldberg: That knows how to... Joel: That does it themselves. No one's gonna launch another SeekOut anytime soon. Michael Goldberg: No. Joel: No one's gonna launch another competitor because they've seen what happens. Michael Goldberg: True, true. Joel: It's gonna be the individual that's smart enough to figure out how to leverage Google or leverage these new search engines or ChatGPT or whatever to get to the best candidates. Yes? Michael Goldberg: Well, yeah. And you look at... What is Microsoft's new GPT? I think it's connected to ChatGPT but... Joel: Copilot or? Michael Goldberg: Copilot. Chad: Copilot. Michael Goldberg: Yeah, have y'all played around with that? It's actually kind of cool. I'm just starting to get it. But Bing, like someone said, add Bing to your phone... Joel: Yeah? Michael Goldberg: And you can get more information on Bing than you can on Google with the use of Copilot, 'cause it's smarter than what ChatGPT is doing. Joel: Yeah. And there's a new search engine, forgetting the name. Bezos just gave it a lot of money. Chad: Oh, Cloud? Joel: Perplexity or... Chad: Oh, okay. Joel: Anyway. So there will be search engines. Well, we see a resurgence in the days where Alta Vista and... Michael Goldberg: Oh my gosh. Joel: Ask Jeeves, and there's all these different search engines that can find people. Time will tell. But Google's gonna get a little bit of competition, I think, in the near future. Michael Goldberg: Absolutely. Here's my thing. Indeed and LinkedIn, they're finite sets of information. You can find twice as much information by just going to Bing, going to this new Bezos thing, which I have never heard of but I will definitely take a look at it. But also start looking at ChatGPT, the dropdown, and it gives you all these different choices, you can do Copilot creation, you can do SEO generation, the whole nine yards. That's what we need to be using AI for to help us stand out and to help us find the right types of people. 'Cause if I can put a profile together and I know who I wanna hire, I can use something like an AI tool to help me come up with the basics. But then I gotta use this to get there, and I gotta use this... Joel: He's pointing to his head, listeners, by the way. Michael Goldberg: Yes. Oh, sorry. I thought we were on camera. Joel: Oh, we're on all the mediums, baby. We're on everything. Michael Goldberg: I'm pointing to my head. But use your brain and use your heart. Because you have to give a shit. You have to care. And that's the one thing that I think is missing from recruiters these days. It's just like, "All right, I'm gonna go fill positions. That's it." Now, I'm old school so I can say that. But I don't mind picking up the phone. I don't use LinkedIn to do my sourcing. I use hireEZ, obviously 'cause we have the tool and I wanna be an example for my team to use it. They're not using it enough. They need to before that lemon is squeezed. Chad: Yes. Well, but it's gonna get squeezed. Michael Goldberg: Big time. Chad: It's gonna get squeezed. [overlapping conversation] Michael Goldberg: We just don't know the timing of it. Chad: Right. So, back to LinkedIn. This is very anti-competitive practice from a company that's owned by Microsoft. Right? Who is... Michael Goldberg: It's a total monopoly. Chad: The last organization that was hit by antitrust, right? Michael Goldberg: Right. Chad: So, I guess the question is, as a company not another vendor... 'Cause SeekOut, they have reasons, right? As a company, a hiring company, what would your words be to LinkedIn at this point? 'Cause you spend money on it. Michael Goldberg: I do. Don't do what you're threatening to do. It's not good for business. It's a pure monopoly. You'll have the antitrust law people all over you. I just think LinkedIn is shooting themselves basically in the chest. Chad: Do you think other practitioners will actually step up and say the exact same thing? Because over the years, we've seen this stupid shit happen left and right. During HighQ, the actual case against HighQ, nobody wanted to be made public, that they were behind HighQ. Right? Now we're here because of that case. And LinkedIn winning. Right? Michael Goldberg: Right. Chad: Are we finally going to get HR practitioners to get out of the goddamn corner and stand up and start to say, "This is wrong, this is bullshit?" Michael Goldberg: Absolutely. It's interesting, I was talking with Jerry Christman. I don't know if he's coming by, but he's getting through career crossroads. He's getting a set of, I think he said 30, right? 30 TA leaders. And he's talking to them next week about this very thing because they're all freaking out. I'm not freaking out because it hadn't happened yet. There's nothing I can do. But you know what? We're gonna have to be better at what we do in order to get over that hump. So what I would just implore LinkedIn is, don't do that to everybody because everybody's on OxyContin and they rely on your tool and you'll still... Yes, you can make more money. Maybe you're trying to get to four to six trillion dollars. But Jesus, how much money do you really need? Joel: How many yachts can you ski behind? [laughter] Michael Goldberg: Thank you very much. Joel: Michael, I want to go... I love your comment about the heart. And I think so many recruiters rely on technology and it's a churn and burn game. You also probably know that we're very popular with the young people, Michael. [laughter] Michael Goldberg: Not me. I'm a grandpa. Joel: And I think a lot of young recruiters are so tech-focused and not heart-focused, which is based on your comment. What advice would you give a young recruiter coming up to not just focus on tech, but the heart? Why is that important? Michael Goldberg: The heart is important because the heart shows that you care. So like I mentioned in my presentation, I started with Marriott making 6.50 an hour, right? And it taught me to have heart to care for people, to take care of people. 'Cause I didn't want my name on a Commack card going like, "What did you do, Goldberg?" Hell, I was even... Because I went out of the way for somebody that... I worked in Bethesda at the Marriott near the Mormon church. It's the only Marriott that Bill Marriott and his family owns on Pooks Hill Road. Go visit it. It's an old as hell hotel. This pastor of the Mormon church comes in. He says, "I was just in a terrible accident," but I sent him... I had a heart and I sent him cookies, 'cause they don't drink. So I sent him cookies, and I sent them some flowers, to him and his family, and I said, "I hope tomorrow is better." He put this nice Jewish young man into his sermon in front of the entire Mormon church. It's because I care. Michael Goldberg: And I think if you care about the people you're recruiting, and you're not crapping on candidate experience, and you're checking in with them and you're communicating with your hiring managers, that's your heart saying, "I really care about what I do every day." The technology, again, it's just a tool and it makes your job easier. But I don't think recruiting is as easy as everybody thinks it is. How many times have you all, have people, young folks come up to you and said, "Huh, what do you think? Should I get into recruiting?" I'm like, "Not if you don't have the heart for it." 'Cause you're gonna be beaten up. It's the most thankless job. God damn, I love waking up every day, and there is nothing that gives me pure emotional satisfaction that when I offer a job to somebody... Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: They hearing their voice of joy... Chad: Yeah. Michael Goldberg: That's my caffeine. I drink coffee, but that's my caffeine every time. Chad: There it is, kids. We're talking about have a heart, for God's sakes. And he is talking to you, Cheesman. This is Michael Goldberg. Michael, if somebody wants to connect with you, where would you send them? Michael Goldberg: I would send them... Chad: To LinkedIn. Michael Goldberg: I would. [laughter] Michael Goldberg: But since you won't be able to find me on LinkedIn, you can connect with me on Facebook. Joel: Since he's been canceled. [laughter] Michael Goldberg: Since I've been canceled. The best way is to reach out michael.goldberg@usrenalcare.com. Feel free to email me, any folks looking. I don't know of any jobs, but I'm happy to help you network. Happy to help you think about what you want to do next because... Chad: A man with a heart, kids. Michael Goldberg: A man with a heart. [overlapping conversation] Joel: A man who cares, who works for US Renal Care. Michael Goldberg: There we go, Cheesman. Nice job, my man. [overlapping conversation] Joel: Oh, the irony. Chad, that is another one in the can. We are live from TA Week in the Qualify Booth. Michael Goldberg: Thank you. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Well, thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, with Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses, and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

In case you missed it, automation, ranking candidates, DEI and managing applicants are all pretty popular solutions in the HR tech stratosphere. But all things for a 80 percent of the non-enterprise market? Well, that's a tough task to say that least, but startup SmartRank thinks they've got the secret sauce, promising to stack-rank and filter job applicants without using a resume, and helping companies achieve their DE&I initiatives by removing unconscious bias from the screening process. That's not all, but you get the idea. Do they have a better mousetrap or just another pile of mouse droppings? Gotta listen to find out. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Like Shark Tank, then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover kids, the Chad and Cheese podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Oh yeah. It's Quentin Tarantino's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is Firing Squad. And I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. And as always, the jewels to my Vincent, Chad Sowash is in the house and we welcome victim, I mean guest, Keith Hulen to the show. [applause] Joel: Keith is founder and CEO of SmartRank. SmartRank stack-ranks and filters job applicants without using a resume. Keith, welcome to the podcast, and more importantly, welcome to Firing Squad. Keith Hulen: Appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me. Joel: You're welcome. You're welcome. So, a lot of our listeners don't know your company, but more than that probably don't know you. So let's get into a little bit about you, the person. What makes Keith tick? Keith Hulen: Yeah. So I live in Denver, Colorado. I'm married. I got two girls, 10 and 12 years old, and I've got a dog. And we love going up to the mountains and hiking and playing sports and doing all the outdoor activities you should do if you live in Colorado. Joel: How many vests do you own? [laughter] How many Patagonia North Face vests do you on there? Keith Hulen: That's not fair. Chad: Flannel. Do you have a full closet of flannel? That's the question. [laughter] Joel: It may be the law in Denver, you must own at least 10 vests. Chad: And they have to have at least two or three of them have to have weed patches on them. [laughter] Keith Hulen: Yeah. You can get away with it if you own a Subaru. That's the one exception. If you own a Subaru, then you don't have to have all those other things. Joel: Oh, oh, he's found a loophole in the Denver law system. Keith Hulen: 1980s Subaru brat. Yes, a Subaru brat. Joel: I like that. I like that. All right. All right, Keith. I like it. I like it. Well, Chad, tell him what is won by being a participant on Firing Squad. Chad: You got it. Welcome to Firing Squad, Keith. This is how it's gonna go. At the sound of the bell, you're gonna have two minutes to pitch SmartRank. At the end of two minutes, we're gonna hit you with about 20 minutes of Q&A. Be sure to be concise. You're gonna get hit by the crickets. It means tighten your shit up. At the end of Q&A, you'll receive one of these three from both of us. Big applause. Like a Mac McClung dunk contest. You're killing it. Big boy. [laughter] Golf clap. Just like unranked Ohio State men's basketball team upsetting Purdue. That's right, I said it. We're saying you have a chance. If you work hard, you got a chance. I love it. And last but not least, the Firing Squad. This is worse than the lack of defense during an NBA All Stars game for God's sake. Scrap the idea and move out my friend. Keith, are you ready for firing squad? Keith Hulen: I'm ready. Let's do it. Joel: At least he has legal weed and mushrooms to comfort the blow if he does get the squad. All right, Keith, pitch this thing in one, two. Keith Hulen: Yeah. So I think everybody knows that the hiring process is broken, right? It's inefficient, it's ineffective, it's biased, it's even expensive and the list goes on. But I mean, nobody likes it, right? And I would argue that the root cause for most of that dysfunction stems from two things. One, nobody ever defines exactly what the qualifications are that are needed for the roles. So everybody, like the hiring managers, the recruiters, the candidates, they're all interpreting qualifications differently and subjectively, and essentially everybody's kind of speaking a different language. And two, the processes and tools like legacy ATSs, resumes, job descriptions, even intake meetings, they haven't changed in decades. And so even when everything else around talent acquisitions change, like job boards and one click apply and even AI and the candidates themselves, TA has unfortunately not changed very much. So SmartRank is a next generation applicant screening and tracking software that completely automates the job applicant screening process. Keith Hulen: It stack ranks and filters every single job applicant. It provides hiring managers with the candidates that match their exact qualifications, not kind of, or sort of. And we do all this without needing or using a resume. And the recruiters are pumped because they save like upwards of 90% of their screening time. They don't have to be a subject matter expert or carry that burden. Hiring managers are only looking at the candidates that they're interviewing that are pretty much pre-qualified, so they're happier and applicants like actually having a chance at getting an interview. Crazy kind of concept there, right? So it's probably one of the reasons we have like 10 times the average completion rate. So increases productivity, increases hiring manager engagement creates actionable and meaningful DE&I, provides data analytics, it helps with compliance and legal. The list just keeps going on. Oh, and it's a better applicant experience overall. So we're the only ATS that our clients actually love, that people in TA actually love. I'll leave it at that. Joel: Recruiters are pumped, Chad. He said recruiters are pumped. SFX: Aih papi! Joel: Wow, that's a lot to live up to Keith. All right. Let's talk about the name for a second. SmartRank, pretty self-explanatory, I guess, but you got the.ai, if I go to.com, it takes me to some dynamo.com page. How'd you land land on SmartRank? Have you tried to buy the.com? Were there other names that were silver medalists in this race? Talk about it. Keith Hulen: Well, smartrank.com wasn't available unless you wanted to pay an arm and a leg. So we went with AI, but also in addition to that, we always intended to have an AI component to SmartRank. And so at first we just built the software, but then later we added in the AI components, which is really, the short of it is really based around creating really, really amazing questions and answers and scores. Joel: All right. I guess I'll go with that. You're a sales guy by history. Why this company? Why this idea? What made you so excited about it? Keith Hulen: Yeah, so I've been a hiring manager for 20 plus years and every hiring manager I ever worked alongside their least favorite part of being a leader was always the hiring process. And I was no exception to that. And that's still the case today. Like everybody that has to be involved in recruiting just hates it. Just hates it, right? The applicants are not happy. The hiring managers are never happy. And then even the recruiters themselves, they are constantly frustrated. So when I decided I wanted to start my own company, I thought this is an area that there seems to be some really low hanging fruit, because everybody hates it. Joel: All right. So you were found in 2020 according to the internets. You haven't raised money from what I can tell. You've been a bootstrapped operation. Does no one want to give you money? Is that by choice? Are you looking to raise some money? What's up with the capital situation? Keith Hulen: Yeah, so we bootstrapped for the first year and a half or so, but we did raise two rounds of, call it friends and family or pre-seed rounds. So we've raised over 1.1 million in outside funding in addition to what we've financed ourselves. Joel: Crunchbase has failed me, Chad. Crunchbase has failed me. [laughter] Keith Hulen: By the way, it's not your fault. When we first started the company and we had no idea what our name was gonna be, it was called Paradigm. So it's probably underneath a different name. So there you go. Chad: I'm not even going down that rabbit hole, stackrank dot whatever. Good move. Good move. Okay. So an ATS, everybody hates their ATS. Keith Hulen: Everyone. Chad: Except yours, apparently. But you don't need a resume. So take me through the process. How does somebody actually apply and then how do you fix the definition of qualifications? Because that doesn't happen on the candidate side. Definition of qualifications and the inability to evolve as we've seen tech over the years. What do you do to fix those problems? Keith Hulen: So I think to answer that, we gotta first look at how does pretty much every ATS on the planet work today, right? So an applicant comes in, they apply through some online job application, and they submit their resume, cover letter, and then they a lot of times end up filling out all that same information, which they also absolutely hate, right? Chad: Yes, yes. Keith Hulen: Now you can look at the recruiter side of things and what are they looking at? They're looking at a, usually almost exclusively a chronological list of applicants. So the date and time in which they came in and name. Those are the only two data points they look at. So what do they do? They start opening up each and every one of them. They have the job description. Chad: Okay. Can't go through the entire process, can't go through the entire process. What I wanna know is if you're not using a resume, what are you using? And whatever you're using, is that actual proof that the person can do the job? Keith Hulen: Yes. So it's highly specific, multiple choice or multi-select questions that have a score associated with every single answer. And those questions and answers are ultimately and this is the really important part, they're ultimately derived from the actual hiring manager for that role at that company. So for example, it would be something like a job description would say something like, must be proficient in Ruby on Rails. That means nothing totally ambiguous, totally subjective. Chad: Yes. Keith Hulen: Nobody knows what that means. Chad: So do you actually put a Ruby on Rails test on there to prove that they are, "they can pass the test, which means they're proficient?" How do you actually help them through that process? Keith Hulen: Yeah, so we would ask them a question like, which of the following best describes your level of proficiency as it relates to Ruby on Rails? And one of those answers might be like, I can build non-trivial queries with active record model associations and scopes and I'm comfortable with RSpec and dynamic text fixture generation. Now that's the level of detail the hiring managers actually want to know. And that's just what they never end up getting today. Now we can also put in skills challenges, but I do want to differentiate. We're not trying to replace coding challenges, right? I think those are great. We do have some skills-based type questions in there, but really at the end of the day, it's about stack ranking and then taking that top of the stack rank and then bringing those in for an interview, those in for the coding assessments. Chad: Okay. You can ask me questions and I can have ChatGPT on the side to be able to give me great answers. Let's say, right? Why are we not testing? Because that's what actually defines qualifications, right? Or certifications. So the question is the definition of qualifications, it gets thrown out the window when you see a great candidate, right? The question is how do you see, how do you identify a great candidate in an applicant tracking system? That's one of the biggest fuck ups that any system has today. How can you do that? Keith Hulen: Yeah. So the way that they're identified is, so you're an applicant, you answer, let's say 12 very detailed qualification questions like the Ruby on Rails example I just gave. You're literally stack ranked. So that's who they're picking, right? They're not gonna focus on the bottom of that. They're not gonna go to the bottom. The reason that like skills assessments, we're a screening solution, right? We're a screening and applicant tracking system, but screening only works if it's fast and it's easy. And it's very relevant to the role. If you ask somebody at the application stage to take a 45-minute coding assessment, you're gonna get zero applicants, right? No one's gonna do that. So you have to be able to screen them down, get that stack rank, top of the stack rank list, and then those are the ones that they're going to focus all of their time and energy on, better interviews. And that's why we have shorter time to fill in all those things because it's just practical. There's no magic happening. We just ask a 100% of the applicants, which of these qualifications do you have or do you not have? They answer them. And then the rest is pretty much up to to the software to handle the stack ranking. Chad: So the main value out of this is being able to identify who is qualified or at least meets the qualifications, stack ranking them to make it easier for recruiters to actually jump in and ask that individual into an interview. Do you have an interview portion of the applicant tracking system? Or do you send it off to a point solution? Keith Hulen: No, we have a full blown applicant tracking system. Interview, interview scorecards, offer letters, all of that exists in our system. But to be honest with you, all of that was really easy to build. That's the ATS piece of it. And that was very easy. Now, we also tried to solve some other problems that exist down there, but really the main reason that you would purchase SmartRank is because of that screening and selection process, because that is the number one most time consuming activity a recruiter has today. And I'm gonna say this and it may not be very popular, but it's also the thing that they are the least qualified to do, right? I mean, let's just face it. If you're a recruiter and you're hiring for an FP&A and a developer and a salesperson, you're not a subject matter expert in any of those roles, especially if you've never done them before. And even if you have, you're not clairvoyant, you don't know exactly what that hiring manager is looking for. Chad: So, what do we need the recruiters for at this point? Because we can just send those top smart ranked individuals directly to the hiring manager. And we can get them automatically on an interview schedule, right? What the hell do we need the recruiters for? Keith Hulen: Well, I think that there's still some areas for them as far as like, I don't think we're totally away from needing to build relationships with these candidates. I don't think we're away from them having to build relationships with the hiring managers. They are still in our system helping to facilitate creating the questions. I would say they're kind of quarterbacking everything. They just don't have to try to be in the weeds trying to do things that they're just not qualified to do. Joel: I think Chad has a good point in that we run into and talk to a lot of startups where if the buyer believes you're trying to replace them or put them out of a job, it becomes an amazing hurdle to clear to sell your product to companies if they think I'm gonna be unemployed if we buy this. Have you run into that? How do you address that when you do. Keith Hulen: If that has come up, they haven't expressed it to me. I'll say this, one of the things when I first did my analysis, we interviewed hundreds and hundreds of recruiters in the beginning and one of the things I kept hearing consistently is they work 14-hour days. And I'm like, no way. You don't work 14 hour days. What are you doing for 14 hours a day? And I heard that so often. And so then I started to dig into that a little bit further and ask why. And the reality is because almost everything they do is manual and tedious in nature, almost everything that they do. So creating this automation doesn't replace their job, but it allows for them to spend time on better things. I'll give you one example. Passive recruiting. Most of these recruiters are just dealing with the influx of the people coming in reactively, right? These are people that are applying on their website or whatever, but they're not going out and trying to find the best person at that other company and pull them away from there. Why? 'cause they don't have time. They've got 450 applicants to review. They don't even have enough time to glance at somebody else. Joel: So it's not really been a hurdle from your perspective at the company? Keith Hulen: No. No, our recruiters are happy. Yeah. Joel: So from your website, it's not super clear that you're an ATS or at least it wasn't for me. So I'm curious, do you integrate with other ATSs? By being an ATS, do you create a competitive nature with them to say like, no, we're not gonna let you integrate? Because I feel like these pre-screenings and testing solutions are best when they're integrated with the sites that people are already using on on a daily basis. What have you seen with other ATSs and competitiveness? Keith Hulen: Yeah, we're in the process of updating our website for the third time. So it's been it's been a bit of a struggle. Joel: So will the new one be clear that you're an ATS or? Keith Hulen: Yes, it will. That's like our number one initiative on this new rebranding of the website. But... Chad: How do you say you need marketing without saying you need marketing? Keith Hulen: Yes. Joel: Oh, we'll get to marketing in a second, Keith. Don't worry. Keith Hulen: Yeah. So so back to kind of the question at hand, like do we integrate? The short answer is we can integrate, we've set up an integration with a big name ATS, but the reality is that every single client that has used us has ripped out their existing ATS and put us in because there's so much overlap between what we can do as far as like you brought up earlier, like interviewing and scorecards and offer letters. And we are a full applicant tracking system, right? So we can, but I like to always kind of push our clients to be like, why? Like, what is it that you're getting out of JazzHR or whatever that you just absolutely can't live without? Well, we need interview scorecards. Great, we got those. So what else do you need? Joel: Okay. So more competitive than collaborative is the future of the company, I would say. You guys have been around going on four years now. Your headcount has barely moved. Typically, I'd like to see a headcount increase at least of salespeople that are out there pounding the pavement and hitting the phones. So, unless LinkedIn failed me, like Crunchbase did, what's up with headcount? When are you gonna start adding salespeople? Keith Hulen: Yeah. It's a good question. It's also a loaded question, so I'll... [chuckle] Joel: It's what we do. Keith Hulen: I'll give this answer. Yeah, I'll give this answer. So we've struggled to be able to really get folks to kind of rip out their ATS for many different reasons. But what I typically, the way that our meetings typically go is they'll say, these are our problems. And then we address each and every one of those very uniquely and specifically. And then I'll show them a demo and they'll say, "I love this. This is like one of the best softwares I've ever seen in this space." And then it comes time to say, "Well, great, get rid of your ATS and use ours. And they're like, "I don't know if I wanna do that." I'm like, why? Keith Hulen: What is it that's really holding you back? And there's not really any solid reasons. It's usually just kind of like, we just don't want change what we have. I think there's a lot of people that have made those changes in the past and switched an ATS and it was miserable and took them six to nine months to switch over. That has never happened with our clients, but that absolutely has happened. So I came into this and we geared up and I hired some additional people ready to go and hit it saying, all right, we're about to blow up here. And then I hit a reality check, which is a lot of the folks are just a lot more risk averse than I had anticipated, not a lot, significantly more risk averse than I anticipated that they would be. Chad: Keith, how long have you been in this industry? Keith Hulen: Well, I mean, I've been hiring people for almost, I don't know, 22, 23 years now, but I've been in this space, like, living this 14 hours a day for four years, coming up on four years now. Chad: Okay, so what about the rest of the team? Is there anybody else who has been in this space, especially from a technology standpoint, for a good amount of time, or are they somewhat newbies too? Keith Hulen: So I wouldn't say like recruiters, that are on our team, but like, tech as far as like our developers that are full-time, that have worked on our application and stuff, they have worked on similar types of HR tech. Chad: What about leadership? You've got yourself, what about other leaders? Because right out of the gate, you're talking about things that we already know, right? It's hard, cost of change, movement slow. Welcome to HR, welcome to talent acquisition, right? This is nothing new, Keith. This is what we deal with. Is there anybody who has long-standing, from a leadership standpoint, in this space? Keith Hulen: Only our advisor team. So, not a leadership team within the C-suite of our company, but from an advisor standpoint, there's some really well-known names that I showed our software to, explained our methodology and they were pretty psyched about it. Chad: So, are they on board as actual advisors with the team? Okay, great, great. So, when you're talking about the actual total addressable market, are you looking at SMB? You mentioned Jazz. Jazz is not an enterprise product. So, are you mainly SMB? Keith Hulen: SMB and I would also say mid-market. Initially, we really... And by the way, those are nebulous terms, right? What does that even mean? This is just like what I... Chad: It's not enterprise. Anything not enterprise is what it is. Keith Hulen: And what is enterprise, right? Like, see that... Chad: Big fucking companies. Keith Hulen: So, yeah, mid-market. So, call it anywhere between 500 to 2,500 employees. And then I would say that's where we focused initially. And again, we were finding that they were so entrenched with their ATS's that we went down market and we started working with more SMBs. So, call that anywhere from like 80 up to 500 employees where they're not established in their ATS. Some of them don't even have an ATS in some cases. And that we've seen quite a bit more success with. Chad: So, when you're talking about the SMB less than enterprise side of the house, how are you guys actually going to market from a sales standpoint? Are you going direct to brand? Are you trying to create partnerships? How are you guys effectively trying to penetrate the market from a sales marketing standpoint? Keith Hulen: We've had a number of partnership conversations, but I'd say it's been more of a direct kind of approach, which frankly is kind of challenging these days, right? Like email, cold calling and stuff, that's just dead. It just doesn't work anymore. So, I'd say it's less of a shotgun approach, more of a very specific scope approach where we're looking at companies that we know have these problems, introductions by our advisors and other folks that they know that these companies have a problem. And then a lot of it's coming through referrals and things like that right now. Very organic. Chad: Mainly referrals into the SMB market. Keith Hulen: Yeah. And I'd say we've struck out with the different marketing avenues we've taken. We've struck out with a lot of those. It's just been tough to kind of go at it. Chad: Yes, it's SMB. So, when you're talking about the actual business model itself, I would assume it's seats. Is it a platform fee with seats? Talk a little bit about pricing. Keith Hulen: Yeah. So, it's based on licenses, but they're recruiter licenses. So you have one person on your team, it's 300 bucks a month. We don't do annual contracts. We do quarterly contracts. It's less risk. If you love what you saw and you really want to give it a shot, you're only committed to one quarter at a time. With that being said, our clients haven't left, but I think that's just because the proof's in the pudding, right? Once you start using it changes your overall outlook. Chad: So, you're looking at revenue from an MRR standpoint as opposed to an ARR because of the way that the model rolls out. Is that correct? Keith Hulen: Yeah. That's right. Yep. And then the more recruiters they have, then we have like tiered pricing. So, like two to five recruiters, six to ten. So, we kind of gear it in there. So, it's not like nickel and diming them for every single license that they're purchasing. Chad: Okay. So, what do you see as the biggest threat for you and the organization today? Keith Hulen: Our biggest threat I think is, well, it's two things. One, it's cash, right? Cash is always kind of a very important thing for any startup. And I would say exposure. One of the biggest challenges that we have is, you brought this up earlier. I told you about our organic marketing, but that takes a long time. And referrals and building up your client bases like that just takes a long time. So, if I get a client or a prospect on with one of our actual clients that's using the software, it's usually game over at that point. They're like, yes, okay, this sounds amazing. Because our clients truly... This isn't hyperbole, they truly love, love, love our software. I just can't get it in the hands of enough people to actually use it and really kind of build that message. Joel: Let's chat about marketing. We hit sales in the last round of questions. One of the more depressing research that I did on the company was the marketing side of things. So, I'm going to read you a laundry list and you tell me what the hell is going on. Your last blog post was April of 2023. You only have 306 followers on LinkedIn after four years of business, roughly less than 100 per year. Your logos are mostly nobodies on the site. Typically, give it away for free just to get somebody that we can all recognize on the site. Your YouTube channel, which you actually have content, you have 15 subscribers. Your careers page has no jobs on it. If I knew nothing about you and I just looked at your footprint on social media and the internet, I would say, are they still in business? So, help me understand why the fall down on marketing? What are you guys doing to change it? You said you're redoing the website, but it seems like there's a real lack of focus on getting the name and building the brand. Keith Hulen: You're not wrong in any of those things you just said and it has been a challenge for us to build the brand and things. I'm not a marketing person. I'm a salesperson, but lacking any types of additional funding and things like that, you end up doing everything, right? Multiple roles. So, marketing, sales, investor relations, customer support sometimes, product. Your hands are in everything. And I would say, we are one of those types of companies where that's exactly one of our Achilles heels is my hands are in kind of everything. And I just struggle to be able to try to get a really consistent marketing theme going. Now, we have hired some agencies to help us, but like I said, we have not had any success with any of the agencies that we've hired thus far doing anything in that realm. Joel: One last question, and I think we'll hit pricing before we leave, but the competitive landscape, we talked a lot about ATSs, but the whole testing thing is huge. TestGorilla, Hiring Branch, Paradox, like a lot of companies are in this space. Are you getting hit on both fronts, like the ATS competition as well as the testing? And that seems like a really hard thing to balance. Keith Hulen: As far as like dealing against competitors like... Joel: Like is TestGorilla a competitor? Keith Hulen: I would not consider them a competitor at all. Joel: Okay. Keith Hulen: ATSs, absolutely. Greenhouse, all those folks. [overlapping conversation] Joel: All ATS competition. Interesting. Keith Hulen: For sure. I'd say we compliment them, Joel. Joel: Okay. Nice save. Keith Hulen: Those TestGorillas and those, I'd say we absolutely compliment them. If you're thinking about automating it, you take your 250 applicants, these are the seven that we're really going to focus on. Let's take these seven and have all of them go through TestGorilla, and of those, let's take the four best scores out of there and let's meet with them. That's a great hiring process, very efficient hiring process. Joel: Okay. Maybe that's a pivot for you in the future. Chad, this sounds really fucking expensive, man. ATS testing. Keith, what is this going to cost me as a company? What's the pricing breakdown? Keith Hulen: If you're a one-person shop, one HR manager, one recruiter, it's going to run you about $900 a quarter, $300 a month. If you get up into that next tier where you've got let's say four or five recruiters on your team, then you're looking at about $1,000 a month. Joel: Pretty reasonable, but not very profitable. All right, Keith, it's time to face the firing squad. Are you ready, my friend? Keith Hulen: I'm ready. Joel: All right, get comfortable. Chad, what do you think? Chad: Well, I think ATS is fucking hard. Right out of the gate, and you've already talked about your experience. A core platform, this is a core platform, Keith. Core. What does that mean? It means that everything is in it. The cost to change, not just getting rid of the platform and bringing in a new platform, but the process methodologies, getting the data in there, make sure the data is clean. Yeah, it is a bitch. And these are things that you're starting to understand now and so is your team. I like that you do have advisors in there. You should probably lean on them very, very hard because a lot of this, to me, is going to be even harder, especially when we're talking about enterprise versus SMB. And what's the big difference between those? Fairly simple. Enterprise, a lot of fucking money, right? And you have a lot of recruiters, so therefore you have a lot of seats, so therefore you have what? A lot of money just in one account versus trying to pick off an SMB for an SMB for an SMB. They are hard to find, first and foremost. Secondarily, they are hard to get on the phone to make a deal, any of that shit, right? So at the end of the day, SMB is going to be incredibly hard. Chad: Lean on your advisors heavily to be able to do this. Listen very closely. Don't do this direct shit. Start focusing on organizations, other point solutions that you go well with, like these Testgorilla types of situations, right? And start to work with them to gain penetration into their portfolio. Period. This is one on one shit, dude. These are the things that you guys need to be doing. Your threat right now, it could be cash, right? I'm not going to say that it's not, but I think your bigger threat is automation is everywhere. So if that is your superpower, guess what kid? It's everybody's superpower. So at the end of the day, I want to see you do well. I think about any applicant tracking system that comes onto this show. I'm going to challenge them incredibly hard. I hope within the next five years you guys explode. But until then, my friend, you're getting the firing squad. Joel: Ouch, ouch. Little tough love there, Keith. Little tough love from a sexy man. Chad: We got to give them the tough love. Got to. Joel: So you're four years into this. You raised about a million dollars, which is great. I would have loved to have heard you say we're on to our A series or we're like we've got some decks and conversations. We feel pretty good about raising 8-10 million dollars in the coming six months. I would have loved to have heard that from you. I didn't. Ultimately, four years into this, it just it feels like a knife in a gunfight. The ATS is an incredibly competitive space. Why anyone launches an ATS today is the only thing worse is a job board today and that'll get the Crusaders on my ass. But that's OK. The testing is incredibly difficult, especially with the money or lack of money that you have. Every metric that I can see, the lack of people, salesforce coming in. You talked about the struggle that they've had to sell this product and how risk averse everyone is. Marketing is not getting done. You're not hiring people. There's no job postings. You don't have any logos of relevance on the site that I can go, Okay, well, they've bought into it and they believe in this product. It's either pivot, you can go with Chad's thing and like embrace the testing sites and what's going on there. Joel: My opinion is you either need to sell the parts and get the hell out and get on to your next idea or seriously pivot and get this thing on some sort of track record because you're four years into this. You mentioned 14-hour days. You have two kids. I'm sure your wife is loving these 14-hour days for four years going on five. Like to me, this is a, "should I get off the pot", come to Jesus moment for you. I think you're a great guy, a nice guy. But there's another idea for you out there. But this ain't it. For me, this also is the firing squad. Nothing personal, Keith. Nothing personal. Chad: We want to see you come back with a load of cash and say you guys were wrong. And/or I took some of that advice and parlayed it into kicking ass and taking names. Joel: For our listeners who want to know more about the company. Where do you send them? Keith Hulen: Yeah. You mentioned this earlier. So YouTube, we don't have many, many subscribers there, but there's a lot of videos. There's a lot of content there. LinkedIn, finding Keith Hulen there and then our website smartrank.ai. Joel: Good luck with all that. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the firing squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Keith podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E.com.

Who's ready for a new generation to enter the workforce? Well, like it or not, Gen Z is on their way in, and - stop me if you've heard this one before - they're different from all the preceding generations. How exactly? Well, no clue. That's why we invited Anthony Onesto, advisor, chief people officer, Gen Z & Future of Work Visionary and author of The New Employee Contract to the podcast. All kidding aside, a generation who's grown up in the shadow of 9/11, the Great Recession and a global pandemic, all while never knowing a world without internet and a smartphone are bound to introduce a wide variety of nuance to the world. And that, of course, includes recruitment and retention in new and sometimes scary ways. If you're hiring Gen Z, and hoping they stay awhile, you owe it to yourself to tune into this episode. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Chad Sowash: Oh, yeah. It's Mr. Beast's favorite podcast. What's up everybody? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joining me as always, the only to my fans, Chad Sowash is in the house. Joel Cheesman: Here we go. Chad Sowash: And please help us welcome Anthony Onesto, advisor, chief People Officer, and Gen Z and Future of Work Visionary. Anthony Onesto: Say what? Chad Sowash: He also what authored a book entitled The New Employee Contract. Anthony, welcome to the podcast. Anthony Onesto: Thank you both. I love the intro music, by the way. I was doing, air guitar as it was going on. [laughter] Chad Sowash: We do intros that the kids will enjoy. That's our goal on the show. Yeah. Anthony, a lot of our people don't know who you are, including me for the most part. Give us a little Twitter bio about you. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: It's nice to see the research was done. Wonderful. Let's just let this strange person on. I'm a Chief people officer, like you said, work for a company called Suzy. I've been in HR for quite a long time. Gray hair. I've been doing this for over 20 plus years. I advise HR tech companies. And during COVID, I was like, you got a lot of extra time in my hands. I should probably do something with that. And I said, why don't I write a book? And I picked the topic that I found interesting and could be beneficial. Gen Z in the market, in the talent market. Chad Sowash: So, real quick, you mentioned homework. I did a search on Gmail to see if we had some notes for this show. And I searched your name and amazingly, I've been spamming you for a long time. So we've known each other sort of passively, and I should know a lot about you. But unfortunately, there weren't sort of a Cliff Notes, for this show. So we're gonna wing it. We are in this for seven years so far. We are professionals. We can get through this three old, middle aged white guys talking about Gen Z. Let's do this. Anthony Onesto: Perfect. Joel Cheesman: Which leads me to the segue, what are three Gen X-ers doing, talking about Gen Z. Anthony, what actually made you focus on the Gen Z, that generation? Anthony Onesto: Yeah, it's a great question. First of all, I have to spam block you now, since you've been emailing me. So I have to make sure I do that. Chad Sowash: Oh, that's a lot of domains. You're gonna have to go through. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: Is it? Yeah. Chad Sowash: Yeah. It is. Anthony Onesto: A lot of international, icons. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: I get it. Chad Sowash: Cyprus. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: Well, when millennials came into the workforce, we were kind of surprised, right? Like, they're, we were like, oh, they don't think like us. They don't talk like us. They don't want things like us. And of course, whenever we have a new, I always say, whenever we have something new that comes into a construct, what do we do? It's like a virus, right? We attack it. They're lazy. They're this, they're that. We start name calling. I said, I really don't think that's a good strategy, especially for HR or leaders. And I knew this new generation, I have three kids. They're all Gen Z. I'm like, they're coming into this workforce. I wonder if they want something different. And guess what they do? And I said, let me write about it. Chad Sowash: Can you define them at this point? Can you sort of crystallize what they are? Anthony Onesto: IPhone forward. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: It is probably the best. I mean, other than dates, I think the iPhone was launched in 2006-ish. I believe. Chad Sowash: 2007. Anthony Onesto: Or 2007. So think about... Chad Sowash: Chad was first in line. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: Really? [laughter] Chad Sowash: Kidding. He hates Apple. Anthony Onesto: You had the... Chad Sowash: He's totally... Anthony Onesto: Oh, no. Joel Cheesman: I was a little known fact though. I did have an iPhone until I ejected, because, they made you, first and foremost, you had to buy a new phone to expand memory. I used to be able to take my battery out of the phone, which the shit would overheat all the time anyway. Anyway, I hated that Apple did that to me. So I went to Droid. Anyway, what I'm seeing here, Gen Z, just for the listeners out there, you're looking at, 1997 to, 2012. So age range of around 11 to 26. Anthony Onesto: Yeah, that's a good marker. I think easily memorable is, this generation grew up with an iPhone, in their hand, or, maybe an Android for the less sophisticated Gen, Zers. [laughter] Chad Sowash: So they can't program a VCR is what you're saying. [laughter] Chad Sowash: They cannot figure out the date and time on a VCR. Joel Cheesman: Oh. So, but yeah, most of us couldn't do that. I mean, come on. We lived during that time. Chad Sowash: X may be the only generation that can. Anthony Onesto: It's the worst thing when the power goes out. And all those devices that aren't connected to the internet are like, how do I do this again? Chad Sowash: What do I do? Help me. Anthony Onesto: It's 12 o'clock. It's blinking 12 o'clock forever now. Chad Sowash: So they've known screens their whole life. They've known the internet their whole life. And more and more social media, defines who they are and how they engage and interact and, look for fulfillment in their life. Would that be a true statement? Anthony Onesto: That's a very true statement. It's in mobile. I would even, add mobile screens. It's interesting as I watch now, this is, I've done a ton of research. I work for a company, Suzy, which is a market research platform. So we did research on Suzy. So a lot of this is built on analytics and insights, but just tangentially with my own kids, they write papers on their phones. I'm like, really? Like that is efficient. And it is. They'll talk to it. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: So mobile is the big, big piece. And I would even argue because of the proliferation of Apple, much to Chad's chagrin here, design, ease of use, that kind of stuff, is super important too. But definitely I would add mobile to that. Joel Cheesman: So, yeah, I mean, voice to text, when we were growing up, I mean, there were so many things as Gen X-ers. I mean, and let's go back real quick. We were called Slackers, right? Yeah. Gen X were, we were slackers. Anthony Onesto: I was never called a slacker. I don't know what you're talking. Chad Sowash: I was, proudly. Joel Cheesman: Sure. Chad Sowash: Proudly. Anthony Onesto: Oh heck. Joel Cheesman: Every generation is told that they're just not, they don't work as hard as the prior generation, yada, yada, yada. But a lot of the things that, that we wished we had when we were growing up, like voice to text, it's available now. It's like fucking magic. Which is amazing. Which is why I think Gen X-ers are so damn good at technology, because we had to live without it, right? I mean, we were playing pong. And then the next thing, the internet comes and just boom. I mean, technology explodes. One thing I've noticed about my kids and other their friends, is that they are not incredibly tech savvy. They know the different parts of the tech. I can definitely use my mobile phone. Anthony Onesto: But when you're starting to talk about anything that's beyond app and getting into business logic, it's really, it's hard for them. Do you find that? Is the research showing any of that? Was it just that we were in an anomaly because we wanted it so bad then it was finally there, but they've grown up with it their entire life. Do they take advantage of it or not? Anthony Onesto: I think it advantage, right? Like, if you think about how we think of electricity, like, you go into your house, you don't really think about it until it doesn't work. So for them, it is, it's so funny, I was on a podcast and I said they were born with an iPhone in their hand. And somebody called me out. I said, really? They were born? I'm like, of course I'm speaking metaphorically. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: But you always have that like, yes. Yeah. They came out and there was an iPhone in their hand and they were calling people. It's just normal to them. It's the, one of the things we found in the research is this idea of like customs. Like we all have customs. Like for Gen X-ers, we had a custom of a place before the internet. So we would go outside, we'd aggregate and build community outside. 'cause it was the only thing we knew. We wouldn't really, and we talked, listen, we all had, I remember when I was a young teenager had a girlfriend far away and was building up my phone charges. Chad Sowash: Oh, God. Anthony Onesto: And got in trouble for that too. Chad Sowash: Remember those bills that you get on a long distance phone call? Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Anthony Onesto: Fun fact, my father came into the room and, we'll just say for the storyline, just unplugged it nicely. But let's just say that's not the case. But anyway. Joel Cheesman: Not in yeah. Ripped it out of the wall. Yeah, no, I know. Anthony Onesto: Ripped it out of the wall and Yeah. And did some other stuff. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, I know. Anthony Onesto: But, I'll tell you how. So, for me, it's the norms, right? These are the, like, they just know it to be a fact. So anything other than that. And that's why I think this generation, it's interesting because there's a lot of things being thrown around. You see CEOs from major organizations saying, negative things. This is the virus, right? We're attacking the virus. But this is arguably the most diverse, not arguably the data says. So it's most diverse. A lot of Gen Zers are two or more races. In fact, it's the most diverse generation. They are have such access. You remember AOL, right? . We would dial up and hear that crackle, and then if someone got a phone call, it would kick us out. They have unprecedented access to information. Think about now with ChatGPT. Wi-Fi. Anthony Onesto: How wonderful is Wi-Fi? We take event. Like, when, by the way, Wi-Fi went down the other day, and like, it was like the, I forgot the book with the conch, right? Like, everyone was coming to me. Like, I had the Wi-Fi conch, and I had all this power. And I'm like, I don't know. Like it, Wi-Fi went out. Like, the kids world. Chad Sowash: Don't worry our buddy Elon and Starlink are gonna fix all that. Like, everything else in the world. Don't worry, don't worry. Anthony Onesto: Oh, yes, I have. Well, I listen, puts his mind to things and things happen. So. Chad Sowash: Yeah, I think to that point, employers, obviously, recruiters watch our show, and it's sort of like, how do you figure out this new animal, that's coming into the jungle? How do we recruit it, retain it. Chad and I talk on the show regularly. They're, more politically motivated, I think, than most. They're environmentally conscious, more than any other generation that I can think of. They think about college differently. We all grew up, like, you gotta go to college. Like, that's how you're successful. They think of that very differently. They have gigs that they can do and not take the traditional career track. So I think a lot of employers, and please speak to this, are trying to figure this out. And will they, or what advice would you give them to understand this generation better? Anthony Onesto: Yeah, it'd be silly for me not to say, go buy the book. So that'll be one plug there. You'll, you'll find some insights there. But, at a very summary or ChatGPT level here, it really is truly, and I don't, this is not a joke at all, but it's like understanding them, right? Like, first try to, like, oftentimes we'll make decisions or assumptions. And again, we're generalizing to a certain degree here, right? We're saying, all Gen Z does this, and, there are outliers and there's gonna be different personas within there. But for the most part, when you're thinking of recruiting, it's fundamentally everything. That's why the book is find, keep, and elevate. So it's recruiting, it's how do we engage and how do we train this generation? So it doesn't finish with recruiting, but it does start there. And it starts even before then. So let's remember mobile first, Wi-Fi, we'll put that in there. And access to global information. So when your company says, Hey, we're diverse, we're a diverse company. Yes, we are. Really? 'cause when I look in LinkedIn, all of your board of directors are white males. All of your executives are white males. All of your leaders are white. Joel Cheesman: Hello? Goldman Sachs. Yes. Chad Sowash: Nike. Anthony Onesto: Pick blank company, right? Joel Cheesman: Yes. Chad Sowash: Exactly. Anthony Onesto: Like, it's an, so they're gonna be like, that's bullshit. You know? And I'm not gonna be interested in your, so it starts even before then. And it's hard work. Nothing in the book is super easy, other than, Hey, get rid of all your ATS systems. 'cause they're all terrible. And the experience is awful. And I can track my pizza on Domino's, but I can't tell where my resume is at your company. Oh. [laughter] Anthony Onesto: That's some of the more tactical stuff like digital first. Like, if you're not on mobile, their mobile generation, if you're ATS is not on mobile or mobile friendly, or you have to fill in a form, connect your LinkedIn, add your firstborn, then add, your mom has to do a video confirming who you are. Like all these different steps we have. They're gone. Like, so even before all that process, they're looking into your company and saying, what's your work life balance? They're looking at LinkedIn and potentially looking at how many people are exiting your company so they have access to all this information. Joel Cheesman: So what about TikTok? What, what about TikTok? I mean, we we're starting to see a lot of, people come out on TikTok, talk about their jobs. I mean, it seems like Gen Z is much more transparent and they just don't give a fuck. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just like, Hey, look, this is my life. I'm working for you. I'm gonna say how it's so, and many companies have huge issues with this. And then we also hear people say, well, now that's gonna stick with you for the rest of your life. But if that's the next generation, this is what we should be getting used to. Or should we not? Or should that be tamped down? Anthony Onesto: I think there's always a middle ground with these things. So I was, you hit it. Right? So TikTok, obviously the growth of TikTok, it is the platform that this generation uses for content, right? Whether they wanna absorb. You see it in, Netflix numbers. You see it in traditional TV. TikTok is where this generation is. And whatever your position on that, it's scary. Especially if TikTok is owned by a Chinese company. But we won't get into that. They are in TikTok. And the idea of the example of cutting, eight seconds or more, or 10 seconds or 15, like this idea of really quick type of, content is really important. It's their attention spans. It's they're digital. It's that component of it. But they're non-negotiable. That is the key factor here and across, whether it's TikTok or what you're talking about, where they are recording, they're not negotiating or revising their thought process. Anthony Onesto: If you're not diverse or you're doing something wrong, they're not afraid to say it because they are not negotiable on those things. Now, I will say that when you come into the workforce, they're also coming into a time when there has been unprecedented unemployment. So it has been a talent market. And frankly, if you subscribe to Peter Zion who wrote a book, the End of the World is just a beginning about global demographics. You'll understand that it will probably always be a talent market, even with the blips of rifts that we're seeing the ne last two years. You're coming into a leveraged market on their side. When we came in, us X-ers, when we came into the market, we were told, do what you're told. You get what you get and you don't get upset. Because there were more people than jobs. And so I think there's so many different macro elements, it's their custom. So that's why you're seeing a lot of these things. So to answer your question more succinctly, I think they will adjust. They have to, you have to accommodate to the cultural norms of organizations. You just do. But they're gonna fight against that. And that's where the friction is happening. Chad Sowash: And to dot tell on that, one of the things that really surprises me is it looks as if anonymity is out the window, with Gen Z, Glassdoor was a thing and you were anonymous and you could sound off and no one could find you unless there was a court order, et cetera. Now people just drop bombs on companies on TikTok with no anonymity. That just seems like that's the future. That just, that's not a supply and demand thing. That's something that's gonna be business as usual with this generation. And the ones coming, they just don't care about privacy. Like we did. Anthony Onesto: I think experience, was it, Yoda experience is the greatest teacher? I think you're probably gonna see some of that happen and some of it drawback. 'cause there are consequences to those things. You talked about it. So there was recently someone who was fired, who recorded the entire fire and posted it on TikTok, right? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Anthony Onesto: The whole session. On her side, unfortunately, people may be second guessing whether they want to hire her in the future. Right? That's a thing. That's a real thing that will exist. And she's gonna have to taper or governor her, transparency around that stuff. And maybe she'd be like, maybe I wouldn't put my name out next time. Who knows? On the flip side, companies gotta get better. Like the more they're getting exposed, the better the experience is gonna be. Companies that get called out, we're all watching and going, oh yeah, we really need to have this locked up when we do this stuff and make sure that we're bringing the humanity to it. Make sure we're doing this in the right way. Where a rift like that was just like, Hey, go talk to the HR person. We're gonna fire you. And that's it. Chad Sowash: Does this generation though, think the fame is worth the risk? Because I see many polls that kids want to be TikTok influencers, YouTube influencers. So my question is, she got famous from that post. Yes, she took risk. And yes, she may see some retribution, but does this generation say, I got famous from it, and that's worth it? Anthony Onesto: I think there's a segment. I think those polls, I've read those polls in the research we've done. This generates it's not, it's actually one of the most misconceived notions that they just want to be TikTokers or, you know. They want to be influencers. Listen, they've seen, just like when we were, growing up or watching, we'd see Michael J. Fox in a movie go from the mail room to the CEO office in an hour, right? So we were like, oh, we want to go work for a company and get that like, so they're seeing influencers and TikTokers become famous. So of course, naturally they're like, maybe that's an opportunity for me. And it's like, there is real money. You mentioned Mr. Beast at the beginning, like, amazing. Chad Sowash: You saw what I did there. Anthony Onesto: I don't get it. My son gets it. I don't get it. Fine. I think he's amazing. I think Taylor Swift is amazing. All these, so to answer your question, I think it's not something they all want to become. They all see the path in companies. They see, right? And by the way, what we found in the research is that they are loyal. Like even though a lot of folks say millennials weren't loyal, 'cause they job jumped this generation because they've seen such change in racial equity and climate change and all this disruption here, and they've seen in 2008 their parents, some of them getting laid off or fired or whatever it is, they want stability. That's actually one of the things in my research that's a little counter to what some of the articles say that say they want to be, no, they actually want security. They just want you, they're non-negotiable on all those other things. Like, Hey, are you diverse? Are you doing good for the world? Et cetera, et cetera. Chad Sowash: Now, Joel asked about, he was on the transparency side of the people, right? They're out there, there's no anonymity. It seems also like a lot of the Gen Z transparency, just not themselves, but also around pay, around culture, around lifestyle, around the company. Do you believe this is going to force companies to be much more transparent so that they can attract that new talent into their organizations? Anthony Onesto: Oh absolutely. If you look at the value of the S&P 500 over the last couple of decades it has gone from what we call assets or tangible assets to intangible assets. So now most companies are valued by their intangible assets. Upwards of 90 I would argue 95%. What that means is people in IP and software but all that IP and software until AI can write software and do all those things it's all created by people. So I think strategically companies are... They have no choice. If your value of your company is your people you're going to have to focus and this is the next generation coming in so they're going to have to figure out how to manage this. It might not be I think the... I forget the supermarket chain that went fully transparent. I think they even published a book of everyone's salary all the way to... I think it was Wegmans years ago. I'm not suggesting that that is the right answer but some level of transparency and there is going back to Joel's comment a couple of seconds before or a couple of minutes before is this they have no shame. So they'll even call you out internally within an organization if you're not doing something which for me was like wow you're okay out on oh yeah tick-tock I get it. You're not employed but you're employed by this organization and you're calling them out. So it's going to be a really interesting time on how to manage how far or how transparent can you be versus what the expectations are. Chad Sowash: That's a big push on the power dynamic because we grew up where obviously the boomers were raised by the greatest generation and the power dynamic was we're the greatest generation. The boomers with the Xers we were raised by them. So again it was do as I say not as I do. And Gen Zs are just like well fuck if you can do it I can do it. And we're on the same level. I don't care if I'm entry level and you're the CEO we're still human beings. And to me that is fascinating. That is incredibly fascinating. Coming into an organization and having that kind of chutzpah right out of the gate. I think it's good. I think it can be tailored but from what it sounds to me and you talked about this earlier there are a lot of CEOs that are out there and most of them are still boomers right and they're just not used to this kind of lashing out but it sounds like they're going to be moving out of the workforce no matter what. But it sounds like CEOs really need to get used to that. How... As a senior leader who one day wants to be a CEO how do you get prepared for something like that other than just having those kids? Anthony Onesto: Yeah I mean. That's helpful because you get real time qualitative feedback from those kids. Again I think it's really truly understanding whether it's my book or any book or any article that's written about what this is all about. I think you have a great point in terms of X versus Z they are coming in they have no fear. They have the chutzpah as you call it but everything that they're... I was on a session of a webinar and I was talking about it and someone commented are they asking for too much? And I went through the list of like Hey they want racial diversity. They want... How is your company impacting the climate? They want compensation transparency. They want... I'm like name which one of these things that we wouldn't want. We just never asked for it I want the earth to be livable. I want racial equity in companies and everyone treated fairly. There's nothing that they're asking for that none of us would agree with. It's just how they're approaching it as this is non-negotiable. So I think as a CEO you really need to truly understand one instead of throwing that antibody at the virus understand. Why? Why is this generation like this? Why do they feel like they have the chutzpah just coming in and kind of throwing a demand on slack in front of the whole entire company? Anthony Onesto: What is it about it wrong or right? And that'll be a decision. What does that mean wrong or right? Is that wrong? I mean it feels wrong. I wouldn't do it. Joel Cheesman: I blame participation trophies but that's just me. Chad Sowash: Yeah. But if you think about it though that's the first thing in negotiations is that you ask for more than what you think you're going to get. And if we've done our jobs as Gen X parents to the Gen Z kids we've taught them that this is how the world works. If you ask for what you want you're not going to get it. You've got to be able to start negotiation wise. You've got to start up high and come down low. Everybody was giving the UAW a hard time for asking for four day work weeks and this that and the other things. Like no those are basic negotiation tactics. I think we're just surprised that these kids these young adults are negotiating better than we did when we were their age. Anthony Onesto: Surprised maybe jealous 'cause we... Again we came in. But I do think it's the power dynamic. I think you're seeing so the new employee contract the title of the book is that dynamic that macro. So that's the macro part of the book. What's happened in the economy, why are we seeing these things? What is... Is the dynamic shifting from capital to labor? And we are seeing a lot of that. We've seen that over the last couple of years and I think listen we've hit a little blip in the tech layoffs. Professor Galloway talks about the Patagonia recession which I love that reference of defence. Joel Cheesman: Patagonia vests. Yeah. Anthony Onesto: Yeah. It's that kind of stuff. I think we see a little blip. And then on the flip side unions are at the lowest level they've ever been at but we've seen some pretty incredible unionization efforts in 2023. The artist or the movie one is a little bit different fighting against AI but you're seeing this movement of activity and so yeah I think there is definitely a capital to labor dynamic that's changing. And I do believe honestly after reading Peter's book on demographics that that... I read an article in the FT yesterday about how Japan is deploying drones and robots into their fields 'cause they have a labor shortage in Japan because too many folks are getting too older. And I was like okay that's interesting. Yes there's a labor shift but what Peter argues in his book and I highly suggest it. It's a long one and it's really deep on economic history in the globe but he also talks about the consumption so even if we have robots and drones making stuff who's buying it? If there's no one everyone's getting older or dying out you have a problem here. You have a real shift in economic issues around the globe. So anyway I went really tangent there but the idea is there is a shift happening and it's a global shift. It's a macro shift. Joel Cheesman: By the way whenever I get jealous about younger generations I just think back to the magic of the eight-track tapes and know that I had it better than everyone else. Anthony I want to pivot back to your comment in regards to them wanting to be stable sort of safe which makes total sense in a generation of 9/11 and pandemics and 08 and et cetera, et cetera. With that information I would say okay the gig economy is in trouble. That's not stability is it? I would say schools are going to benefit being college 'cause that feels like a safe thing to do. And I would say that marriage should be on the upswing because having a stable family structure nuclear family seems like a safe thing to do. But all of those things are not happening. The gig economy is exploding. People aren't going to college the way that they used to and people aren't marrying the way that they used to. So can you help explain that to me how those two things can be true but also in contrast to each other? Anthony Onesto: Yeah I think part of it is understanding that maybe some of those stabilization norms are ours and not theirs. So I think there's some... One is like job and gig so I think that if there is the shift in the gig economy and I really haven't seen too much of that data. In my experience at least we have full-time employees. They're coming in. I mean there's no other path right now for kids. Years ago we had wood shop and by the way it was terrible. I almost killed my wood shop feature. [laughter] Auto shop. I cracked whatever they... Chad Sowash: Electricity. Joel Cheesman: Fargo before Fargo. Anthony Onesto: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: The wood chipper. Anthony Onesto: It was terrible. But there was a path to that kind of work and I think that went away 'cause it's... Everyone is like you got to go to college. But some of the highest paying jobs I know of is plumber electrician. I don't see the college numbers. I think college has become so expensive but I don't see a lot of kids not going. I think that's still an element. A lot of kids are going to college. They see that as the next step. I think the gig economy is because we're starting to think of jobs as skills not necessarily a job. So what I mean by that is there's a specific task. So if I am a digital marketer and I need to understand SEO there's really no university that's going to teach me how to do that. I might be able to take a course online but it's a skillset that I am going to learn. And I want to hire somebody. I don't care if you went to an Ivy League or a community college. If you know how to do SEO or you know how to media buy on LinkedIn your degree is useless to me. So I think when you think of the gig economy specifically I think it's being able to have these skill sets roll up into a full-time job. So I think it's part of the fundamental change that I talk about in the book is rethinking how we're even thinking about jobs and how jobs are performed. And we're starting to see that. We pulled education off of I think 95% of our job titles where it wasn't relevant. Anthony Onesto: We do market research. It does require some level of education some level of PhD on the data science side but for the most part we're not requiring any of that. We just want you to know and display that you can actually do the job. So I think that's an element of that. On the marriage piece I think they're finding... What I found is the shift there at least in the research and what I'm seeing even outside of the book in the work that I did is that they're not finding that as a source of stability. They're leaving churches and religion and all that other stuff. They're using the job in that environment as a pivotal point of stability and friendship like now add COVID in there and obviously no one could do anything else but I don't think they're looking at families as that end game of stability which again if you hearken back to my comments about Peter Zion that we're in trouble the US we should be okay. He predicts the US will have minor demographic challenges but a lot of folks are going to be coming into the US 'cause it's really the only beacon of economic prosperity he predicts. But so it's a bit nuanced. So I think they can exist 'cause I don't think it's a zero in one or it's linear. I think it's... These things can exist to a certain degree and I think there might be other forces that are impacting those numbers. Chad Sowash: So in a world of generative AI you have created a ChatGPT I mean literally a chatbot to be able to scale your knowledge. Tell me about the impetus of that. You were probably pretty excited and what did you use data wise to be able to train the bot so it didn't just start hallucinating and giving out crazy ass recommendations to people who're using the bot. So tell us what the bot is and then tell us how you trained it et cetera. Anthony Onesto: Yeah and just so you know you mentioned generative AI. So the AI gods will save us today. We have to say it at least once. Chad Sowash: Thank God. Anthony Onesto: So that they'll not come down on us or when the... As the group of Roman Aideman... Joel Cheesman: Skynet. Anthony Onesto: Skynet, yeah I don't know how I forgot that. So to your point... Joel Cheesman: Two out of three Gen Xers can name Skynet. We just proved that point. Anthony Onesto: Exactly, exactly with very little context. I have book debt. I wrote this when I launched it. I love books of someone will say Chad and Joel wrote this really cool book and I'll be like all right I'm going to buy it and then it sits there. It's just honestly and it's not a knock on you two. I don't even know if you have a book but... Joel Cheesman: Coloring book. Yeah. Anthony Onesto: It's just... It sits there until I'm ready to read it but I'll buy 10 books and read one. So I'm like people might be buying my book. There's one person in the Midwest that basically threw it out. She wrote a review on Amazon and said it was junk gamut. I'm like okay I'll own that. I can't make everyone happy. Chad Sowash: Transparency. Okay. Anthony Onesto: I like pulling that out by the way I screenshotted it. Because listen whatever everyone has their opinion. But folks may buy it and not really use it 'cause they're like me and they're just like oh that's an interesting book and never get to it and that's audio books too. 'Cause I ride bike and so I like audio books too. The ChatGPT was an opportunity to take the entire book infuse it into the chatbot take the research we did on Suzy all the data we put in there and said okay let me throw this in there and see what happens so when they first launched it before it went public it was sitting in the backend where I would just test it. I shared it with a couple of friends in the HR space 'cause as your point. We see I think there was one that was just spun up in the UK. It was a customer service bot that the person convinced the bot to convince them not to use the company that it was a terrible company to use. So you've got to be careful with these things. And I don't even know now that it's public there might be... I think it's controlled guidance but I thought it as an opportunity to make an extension. Okay all right if you want to buy the book yes no one's getting rich off of that but I want my knowledge to be out there. Here's another way it's another avenue. It's kind of like when the app store came on and everyone started creating apps and most of us never passed that first screen. Anthony Onesto: Well for Chad your Google phone or whatever it is you're using there. But for the iPhone we very rarely go to the second or third screens. It's the same thing right? We're going to see a proliferation of these things. Most of them are going to be useless. Mine might be useless. Hopefully someone will find value sit in a meeting with the Gen Z-er and chat while they're meeting and saying they're saying this and how do I respond? And maybe it becomes helpful to them. But it was an extension of the book in a very... I would say a unique way so that was really the spirit of it and I don't even know what'll happen with it. There's not a lot of data or transparency around this whole GPT store. I don't even anyone is using it. But that was the purpose. Let me take the book and see if I can create a different experience. Chad Sowash: Sounds like a genius way to get out of parenting. Just have your kids ask my generative AI bot what you should do and not do. And I can just watch Netflix and eat Chipotle. Chad Sowash: That might be a real world by the way. Anthony Onesto: I want to go back. You mentioned Professor Galloway 'cause he also has a professor Galloway AI that you can ask him questions but he talks a lot about young men being sort of lonely opting out of the general norms of society. I talked about college and you said that people are going to college women more so than men today. I want you to just talk about Gen Z men where their head is what they expect out of life how are they different than other generations 'cause I think that's something that's worth noting. Anthony Onesto: Yeah it's a great question. I mean I'll be perfectly honest we didn't really do too much gender split in the research. I mean there's some that came about in the research but we didn't dive heavily. We wanted more of a I would say a holistic view of the generation but specifically what we saw I think one of the elements we haven't talked about. So we talked about mobile and other things but really the gaming element with this generation is huge. And that's both male and female. Traditionally male traditionally male on the gaming side in terms of the company and the engineers. But there is a large amount of female gamers that are starting to enter the space. I think gaming has a real interesting when you think of the male and again most of it is male. They're interacting online so this is again a custom norm. We didn't have this stuff before AOL chat rooms and all that sort of stuff. So we'd have to go outside knock on a door or I think there's a great meme it said... It had a bunch of bikes in front of a house and that's how you knew where everyone was. So those were just norms we were used to where we're here the gaming and the interaction and I have this with my own son he's 17. Big gamer has always been a big gamer and we're like go outside. And I think those things are important don't get me wrong. Anthony Onesto: I think it's important for exercise get out. It's been proven. There's science behind it. But I'm not judging him for having his interactions on a gaming system. He's comfortable. I hear him in his room has his headphone which I should probably borrow for our next podcast probably gonna be helpful. And he's talking to his friends and he's laughing. But it's unusual for us because we like this. We like the in-person interaction so while I agree with Professor Galloway it's clear the numbers are there. Every active shooter that's out there it's nine times out of 10 if not 100% male. It's a young male. There is a problem there's a real issue here. A lot of folks always point to gaming and other things. I don't know I'm not that sophisticated to name that but I think from a Gen Z this is the norm. They like the gaming they like the online elements they like that kind of thing. And then I think if they do go to college or other things I think we have to figure out what is if it was church or going outside or community events I love sports. I love the idea of sports. I would infuse almost what Israel does with Professor Galloway talks about the Peace Corps and things like that. I think those are great ideas like forcing people into these things into a community where they connect as a team 'cause I think that's the element that is going to be missed. Anthony Onesto: And when you go to college that's obviously forced on you. If you don't go to college it's not. But I think it's an important element of success is that ability to have that. So there's got to be the way to infuse that. And I think young sports any sport is a great way to do that. But in the data that we're seeing they're very comfortable in that space. And it's something that I don't have a solution for but it was definitely something we saw in the data especially around the gaming elements. Chad Sowash: Excellent. Well that's Anthony Onesto everyone. So Anthony if somebody wants to buy the book write you a bad review or I don't know just connect with you where would you send them. Anthony Onesto: For the bad review you can go to the Barnes & Noble on Route nine. No. Joel Cheesman: Your local library. Anthony Onesto: Your local library and throw it in the binder in the front of it. Don't do that it's a fee and you'll get in trouble. Amazon has the book. We don't have an audio book yet. We'll get there at some point. But Amazon Kindle you can get it there. You go to my website anthonyonesto.com. You can learn more about me, you find the book all that sort of stuff. Joel Cheesman: Thank God we've stopped talking about the fucking millennials. That's another one in the can Chad we out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to what's it called a podcast the Chad the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting they talk about technology but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar blue nacho Pepper Jack Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It is so weird. We out.

Workday acquires HiredScore, legal challenges in AI hiring, Deel buys Zavvy, Indeed's pricing woes. Industry shifts and privacy debates YES, this is the kitchen sink of episodes. The stars have somehow aligned and we got news drop from all your favs this week: ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, Indeed, Deel ... and of course, OnlyFans. We even mention the likes of CareerBuilder, Monster and HotJobs. Hell, we even through background check talk along with AI lawsuits on hiring practices with some of the most well-known companies in our space. Seriously, settle in for this one, grab a bourbon and enjoy. We're about to cause chaos and rock like Amadeus. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. [music]: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh yeah, two guys who are taking time out from their day buying NVIDIA and Bitcoin to give you another show. You're welcome. What's up kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel insurrectionists band Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad surge pricing Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, Workday scores, Deel deals and OnlyFans saves lives. Let's do this. Chad, we're infiltrating the minds of young children apparently. Who sent you the video of the kids in the backseat giving our intro? I mean, I'm worried for the future enough as it is. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The fact that parents are letting their kids listen to us is really scary. Chad: So I'm not going to let that out. I don't want them having, child custody taken away from them or something like that for having them listen to Chad and Cheese, but yes, I got a video from one of our listeners and his two kids. I'd say they're probably around 10 or so 10, 12 Maybe, in the backseat of the minivan doing the Chad and Cheese Intro. So yeah, that was pretty legit. Yeah, they were good. Joel: Lock your doors... Yeah, they knew it. And we know Adam Gordon's kid has been listening to the show. By all intents and purposes, seems like a pleasant young man. So maybe it's not as bad listening to us as it would sound. Chad: Nah, it's the real world coming at you. Joel: So with this cold front in the Midwest, how much do you miss Portugal? Chad: Yeah, I don't even need a cold front to miss Portugal. Joel: That's true. Chad: But I get a cold front and then I really miss Portugal. So yeah. Joel: That's true. Chad: It's... I'm jonesing, I'm jonesing. Joel: So we were talking before the show. This is like the the aphrodisiac of a show that I'm not sure our listeners are ready for. Chad: It's packed. Joel: We have thrown almost everything into this show. Chad: Packed. Joel: Zip is in the show, LinkedIn is in the show, Workday, Background check stuff, Indeed of course is in the show. Chad: Deel, Acquisition. Joel: And obviously, OnlyFans has to be in the show. So if you're listening and you love the show, take a seat, get comfortable because this thing is a loaded baked potato to say the least. Chad: Here we go big boy, here we go. SFX: Shout Out. Joel: All right, let's get to it. The Four Horsemen keep riding on Chad, ZipRecruiter announced their earnings recently. So if you're trading the stock, and we know that all you JobBoard lovers out there, owning ZipRecruiter hand over fist, that ZIP at the NYSE. All right, so they faced challenges in 2023 due to what ZipRecruiter described as "one of the slowest hiring markets in recent memory." and other top line headwinds impacting its fourth quarter and full year earnings, the company reported a 35.4% decrease in fourth quarter revenue to $135.92 million. The number of quarterly paid employers declined by 35% year-over-year to a little over 70,000 primarily due to weakness among small and mid-sized businesses, which are the majority of ZipRecruiter's customers. Revenue per paid employer also decreased by 1% to $1922. First quarter 2024 revenue guidance is 120 million representing, yep, you guessed it, a 35% decline year-over-year. Chad: Ouch. Joel: The stock was down 10% this week. Shout out to ZipRecruiter. Chad: Amazing. I mean any types of job sites, they're gonna have to go down funnel, they need more data. This is going to be about data this is going to be about targeting, this is going to be about being able to target qualified candidates as opposed to just clicks, just bullshit clicks, which is exactly what Zip and the rest are giving. Yes, Zip has more of a matching algorithm, but still, it's not far enough down the funnel. Joel: What was their AI's guy name? The guy? What was his name? Do you remember? Chad: Was it Phil? Joel: Phil, yes, it was Phil. Phil's not working out. Phil needs to get replaced by somebody else. Cheers. Chad: Yeah, I think I think Phil's gonna get a pink slip. Anyway, I've got a shout out but this is for the dumbass of the week who goes to the fast food chain Wendy's CEO Kirk Tanner for this Indeed-like dumbass move. Yes, Indeed-like dumbass move. Here it is kids, watch it. SFX: Wendy's will soon test a plan to fluctuate its menu prices based on the time of day, the location and demand. It would be similar to the surge pricing used by ride sharing companies like Uber, raising fares during bad weather or rush hour. SFX: Wendy's Baconator. SFX: In this case, that Baconator sandwich could cost $1 more during your lunch hour. SFX: Dynamic pricing or pricing algorithms allow companies to change prices throughout the day or perhaps even throughout an hour. SFX: Wendy's CEO says digital menu boards could use artificial intelligence to raise and lower prices in real time, allowing the company to be competitive and flexible with pricing. Customers are already voicing concerns. One claiming surge pricing is just price gouging by any other name. Chad: Yeah, so hey, Kirk, buddy. The big question here is will Wendy's employees receive dynamic wage increases during the surge times? I mean, the burgers themselves, they're not going to assemble themselves. And then there was this holy fuck moment they were talking about the Baconator. Gizmodo reports that the standard price of a Wendy's Baconator in New York City costs, get ready, $12.24. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad: For a sandwich from a fast food restaurant. And that's standard pricing. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Fuck. Joel: This is the dark side of AI. When I know traffic flows, and personally, I can't wait till my wings cost $84 during the game in surge pricing. Chad: Crazy. Joel: I think it's inevitable. I think this is coming, Wendy's just did a shitty job of like, slowly boiling the frog. They just threw the frog right into the boiling pit of death and the whole world freaked out. And they've walked this back. But don't think for a second that fast food, restaurants, etcetera, are looking at ways to like increase prices when Oh, it's lunchtime. Are people going to change when they eat? Probably not. So this is kind of a built-in price increase, that doesn't look like a price increase. I guess. Chad: They will stop going. I mean, they'll stop going to fast food. I mean, people go to fast food because it's cheaper. Joel: Your lunch time is like 03:00 o'clock in the afternoon. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Because you're on your fasting thing. So everyone will be at 03:00 PM You eat at 10:00 P.M, Will be on European mealtimes. And do they increase or do they decrease? I guess would be a question. They didn't say much about, Oh, during the hours of 03:00 to 04:00. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Those nuggets are 25 cents, like watch them sell some nuggets between 03:00 and 04:00 when it's really, really low pricing. Chad: But again these poor saps, Who are the ones who have to assemble the burgers in the first place. And they have to do it faster because of surge timing, because there's so many... There's so much demand that's happening. Yeah, those dudes aren't getting paid more. They're not getting more. Joel: Yeah. Chad: This is just a way to soak the consumer. I mean, they're already getting amazing profit as it is so yeah, hopefully we'll start to see. And they did see on social media that people were like rising up and like, Fuck you, I'll go across the street. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So yeah, we'll see how it rolls out. But I don't see this. This is like gas prices. You pass and then five minutes later, you go back past it. And it's like 20 cents more. It's like what the fuck just happened? Joel: You may be onto something from a marketing perspective. If they would have come at this at like, look, our workers aren't getting paid anymore, when it's lunchtime or dinner time, they're still paid the same amount. So we are going to surge pricing, and pass that on to our workers. Chad: That might be something. Joel: Who are harder during these hours. And then they could kind of split the hair. Like we're gonna keep a little bit too and they're gonna get a little bit more. Like this could have been a home-run for Wendy's from a recruiting retention like PR standpoint, but they fucked it up. Chad: Go figure. Joel: They screwed it up. Because you and I would be celebrating if Wendy said, the burger is $1 more during lunchtime, but we're gonna give 80 cents of that to our workers and then 20% to technology or innovation or whatever, like we would have been applauding it. Instead, they're getting killed for it. Lessons in PR with Chad and Cheese kids. That's what we're doing here. Chad: All they had to do was watch Indeed. Indeed comes out with new products and then they increase prices and then they said, oh, sorry that pilot didn't work out. That was not a fucking pilot. Joel: I hope the folks at Chipotle are listening to this show on how to do it right, kids. SFX: Oh my God, I love Chipotle. SFX: Don't do it Chipotle. SFX: You took away my life. Joel: All right, since we're in the mood for playing some ads, I'm going to talk about LinkedIn's new ad campaign. They've launched their first ever brand campaign for LinkedIn premium, aiming to showcase the benefits of its subscription product. The campaign running until the end of March features three videos highlighting relatable career experiences and emphasizing LinkedIn premium as a tool to advance careers with 85% of US professionals considering a career change this year. I say bravo to getting more cash out of those damn job seekers. So if you're listening on the podcast, which a lot of you are, it's clones. Same woman, same outfit. She's in the office lobby waiting to be called for an interview. She's like, how do you stand out she opens her phone looks at LinkedIn. LinkedIn gives her magically these three guidelines to separate herself from everybody else. They pan back to the lobby. Now everyone's different, she stands out, she gets called back for the interview. You're shaking your head like you don't like this strategy Chad, you don't like the ad. Chad: Oh it's black mirror creepy as fuck. I mean you look it and you're like, I don't see myself in that bad haircut or that bad outfit. Trying to soak... I understand it's an entirely different revenue stream, but trying to soak jobseekers especially when they're looking to find another job for cash is always been just filthy, just creepy, just nasty to me. So and we actually talked about there are others who have done that before. The Marc Cenedella, the ladders of the world who just focused on hey, look, if you want access to these special jobs pay us for this, which was... Joel: No one else get's this. Chad: It was all bullshit in the first place. But again, it's just like, why are you trying to zap cash out of individuals who are looking for a job versus the companies that actually have the money and they want the talent? It's like we have this backwards in this country. It's fucked up. Joel: Yeah, it's a long tradition of taking advantage. Let's be honest, of desperate people. Chad: Fucking people over, Yes. Joel: Yeah, like I need a job and this ad tells me if I spend, what'd you say, 40 bucks a month or whatever it is now for the... Chad: Fuck. Joel: For the job seeker one like, I'll magically get a job and that's just not the case. Infact, I would say that this probably does very little to help you stand out. And get the job of your dreams. Chad: But what will help you stand out is free stuff with Chad and Cheese. You have to pay $40 a month for this shit? No way. This is great stuff. Joel: No, not on this show. Chad: New T-shirts that we're getting ready to push out design-wise that we've got a new sponsor Aaron app. I love the logo on the back of the shirt by the way, it's gonna look awesome. Joel: It's so sexy. SFX 4: Hi pappy. Chad: Beer from Aspen tech labs on your door, your step right there, FedEx, UPS however it gets there but it's going to be brought to you. Whiskey... Joel: We're not coming to your house, just so you know. It's not us. Chad: And that's from Aspen tech labs. Whiskey from Textkernel, bottle from Joel, bottle from myself. So some whiskey coming to you. And if it's your birthday, rum from Plum. SFX 5: Could you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can, I can feel it all the way down. Chad: One Lucky listener. Joel: Gotta love it. And February had an extra day. We're recording on the 29th, it's leap year, so you had a little extra chance this month to get on there. But yeah, Celebrating another trip around the sun of our listeners. Is Kristen Urban, one of our fantasy favorites? I almost got there. Vershali Umrical, Colin Parker, Adam Salsa King Chambers. Do we know where in the world he is? Now, is he still in Mexico? Is he in Vietnam? Chad: I think he's still in Mexico. It doesn't matter. Wherever Adam is. He's having a good time. Joel: That dude's a trip. All right. Christopher Chamento. John Turner, Becky Green, Molly Northern Warner. My niece, by the way. Boss Von De Etered. Bob Etheridge and our favorite PR guy. SFX: Hi Pappy. Joel: Evan White celebrates a birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: All right. Happy birthday everybody. Chad: Our friend Edward White, who we're actually going to see March 11th through the 14th at Transform. That's right, at the win in Vegas. Over 3000 attendees, a 100 plus investors, 100s of startups, 100s of speakers. So much, God, I'm tired just thinking about it right now. And we're giving away five free tickets. We're gonna shut this down sometime soon, kids. So get on Chadcheese.com/free and you can register for everything that we talked about before for beer, t-shirts, everything, and even possibly winning one of five free tickets to Transform. SFX: All right. All right. All right. Joel: Good Lord. I don't know if we're turning into Groupon or your local lottery dealer, but... Chad: A little bit of both. Joel: But man, we are out of control. By the way, our travel is sponsored by our friends at Shaker, Recruitment Marketing. And by the way, Chad, I mentioned it was the end of February. That means we're at the beginning of March, which means we'll be recording our Chad and Cheese podcast does data with Linkup, CEO. Chad: Toby. Joel: Toby Dayton. The number's a little bit weird, a little bit of estimates coming out. We'll know the numbers here in about a week or so. And you and I will be on with Toby talking about the real nitty gritty about where the markets and the economy is going. You can only view that on YouTube. So subscribe youtube.com/@ChadCheese and make sure you don't miss an episode. Chad: Excellent. Chad: Topics... Chad: And a shitload of topics. Geez. Joel: Yep, yep, yep. So much for Workday acquiring Beamery, at least not yet. Workday is acquiring HiredScore, an AI powered talent solutions provider to enhance talent management. The deal aims to offer a comprehensive talent acquisition and internal mobility solution leveraging responsible AI and focusing on human centric decision making. The acquisition is expected to be finalized by April 30th, subject to regulatory approval. Of course, Chad, your thoughts. Chad: So, congrats to Athena Karp and the HiredScore team who stayed disciplined and focused on the problem they were solving this entire time. HiredScore never played the we can do it all Vaporware Tam expansion game, which I've always respected. I've always respected that. What this all comes down to though is one thing, timing. We've seen some big names rush generative AI products into the market to meet OpenAI and ChatGPT, Amazon, Google, Facebook, and Twitter are all either launching GenAI into the market or they're taking steps to do so. So how does a HiredScore cut through all of those big names and the noise? The easy answer is they can't compete long term. They can't with those big names and those deep pockets. So this is a perfect time to sell. This is the perfect time to sell. The question is why HiredScore? When we take a look at like the Beamery and the Eightfolds and some of those other companies that are out there, why HiredScore and why now? What do you think? Joel: Because AI bleeds into everything. And if you are a public company like Workday is, and you're not talking about AI, introducing AI, using AI, profiting from AI, You're gonna be left out by the market. I mean, shareholders and people who buy the stock. I guarantee board meetings at Workday were like, where's our AI shit? Where's our AI? We need AI. And somebody said, well, we're working on that internally. And finally someone said, shit, we're not, it's not working. We need to at least buy something with AI in it and we can announce on our earning score, which wasn't awesome, by the way. That we are now, we've acquired this itty bitty AI company. The market wasn't that impressed. Apparently, the stock... Well it was earnings. I don't know if it was, it wasn't AI, but it was more earnings thing. Just, there wasn't a lot of people impressed that they had bought an AI company with 125 or 50 employees. But why'd they do it? Because the market says if you're not AI, you're not with it, man, you're not hip. It's like the 90s. Like youneeded.com. You better have a website. You better have some e-commerce shit. It's just like the future. The past is present now. Chad: Well, When ADP applies pressure like they have over the past few months and being able to talk about the GenAI that they're putting out and the data that they're actually crunching, not to mention we're talking about HiredScore has mature matching algorithms complete with what Athena would call defendability or explainability. Which is something that Workday does not have. And one of the reasons why they're in court, which we'll talk about. But this is also interesting from the standpoint of a buying binge. Does this start SAP, Oracle, ADP, will the Dominoes start to fall? And then you look at the companies that were sucker punched, in this case, Eightfold. They have close to $400 million in funding. Limited vendors out there can afford them. This is one that is off the table now. This is off the table. Now they're even limited more. Beamery, 223 million. There's no way in hell they're buying Beamery. And then the vendor that I think has the most risk that we've talked about for a while, we haven't talked about here lately is Textio. I mean, they have 42.5 million in funding. But again, these are all companies I believe are at high risk. Chad: With tech and the velocity that's out there today. If they don't sell, they're gonna be worthless. Joel: Yeah. SFX: Just the 10. Joel: HiredScore didn't take any official money VC-wise. From my understanding, they had kind of a sugar daddy or a few people that had money that kind of kept them in the early days going. Chad: Rich friends and family. Joel: This was a sweet deal for Workday. Very little risk. Probably small price tag. Compared to what you're talking about, Eightfold. They do the deal. They probably get some employees. I think Athena's probably gonna move on after her year contract or however long she's there. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: I don't see her enjoying her time at a huge ass company like Workday. And look, Google's Gemini, I'm sure you saw this, hit a huge speed bump with its graphics and producing popes that were black and Vikings that were like, people lost their minds. This is Google. I think there's real questions about if Google can't get AI right, how can a little company in the workspace get it right? I have my questions, but for Workday, it was a market situation where let's do a little risk. We can say we have an AI company. Anyone that think... A lot of our network lost their minds over this deal, that like, revolutionary, amazing. And people that we both respect. And I would caution everybody and throw some cold water on this deal and say, look, if you think that Workday a 20,000 person company, I think at the end of the day, Workday's not gonna change and HiredSolve is gone... HiredScore, sorry. See, I get them mixed up, solved, scored. Chad: I see a lot of the bigger companies really suffocating the platforms that they've bought and then they go away? Taleo is gonna go away. I mean, you take a look at Conexa. BrassRing. You take a look. A lot of these big companies that were big in our space were acquired by larger organizations. And then they were just fricking... They were strangled in the... Not in the crib, by the way, but yeah. They were strangled. Joel: Acquisitions are hard. I mean, you get company cultures, you get politics, you get things that you are not used to. Look, we both applauded when Andrea sold Opening to iCIMS. Would either of us say that iCIMS is greatly different today than it was when they bought her company? Joel: I would say from a technology standpoint internally, yeah. Joel: Greatly... Like, greatly changed the business. Chad: That's the thing is that if you have a HiredScore like this, and we can start to kinda like, push into the next Workday lawsuit, they needed to do something. Their AI was already on trial. Joel: Yeah. Or at least give the impression that we're doing something. We'll see, time will tell if this really does change the company. And iCIMS is a much smaller company than Workday, by the way. Chad: Oh, God yeah. Joel: Workday is a big, big company. All right. All right. Well, time will tell, I guess, on this one, but we agree. Athena great job. Chad: Oh God, yeah. Joel: Hopefully pay out and then in a year or so, you can go do whatever the hell you want. Good for you. Chad: That escalated quickly. Joel: All right. Let's go to lawsuits. Derek Mobley has filed a lawsuit against Workday alleging that it's AI powered hiring software discriminates based on race, age, and disability, violating federal laws. Workday denies wrongdoing, stating and ensures its products comply with laws. The case highlights concerns about AI bias in hiring. But wait, Chad, there's more. HireVue has been partially relieved from a class action lawsuit in Illinois. The court dismissed claims that HireVue profited from selling the data focusing on software sales. Instead, the case highlights legal complexity surrounding biometric data use in hiring me thinks. A trend is developing, Chad. What are your thoughts? Chad: So, Workday, we're just talking about it. Hence the HiredScore acquisition. What Workday needs at this point is a show of contrition through this acquisition with a will do better statement, and then pay a pissy little fine. And thank the Gods, this case was not filed in the EU because a 6% global revenue fine for Workday would've cost them $420 million. So hopefully, HiredScore helps Workday get through this shit together. So I see this almost as an optics play as well. It does make sense from a tech play. I don't know if it'll actually work out that way for Workday, but we'll see. Show of contrition. Sorry. We did wrong. We actually bought these guys over here who understand AI. They can explain AI, etcetera, etcetera. Now, on the HireVue side of the house, collecting biometric data on candidates. I mean, Illinois was the first state to craft what I would like to call an anti HireVue legislation. Chad: And then in Massachusetts. The plaintiff, Jesus, claims that CVS, this is not a claim against HireVue. This is what all companies should be aware of right now. The plaintiff claims CVS, not HireVue, CVS violated state law by subjecting him to an AI powered interview, HireVue that analyzed his facial expressions, eye contact voice annotation, inflection, etcetera, etcetera. So notice that once again, that was not against HireVue, it was against CVS. The bigger issue, I cannot imagine. We know people who work there. We know people who have worked there. I cannot imagine CVS would be happy with the prospect that HireVue is collecting biometric information on CVS's candidates. So the question is, is that actually happening behind the scenes? Just because that the biometric data product isn't available, or at least I don't believe it is anymore, doesn't mean that HireVue doesn't have the capability to actually collect that biometric information. Chad: And that to me is the scary part. If you are a CVS, not only can you be taken to court because of this, but wait a minute, are they collecting data that we don't know that they're collecting? And what are they using that data for? So then I reached out to a few practitioners and asked them about this, and they've freaked the out. One said, it is going to be an interesting case to follow, as it could have huge implications on the tech space. No kidding. It's a fine line between... Listen, it's a fine line between biometric data collection, sentiment analysis, which we hear a lot of companies talk about and lie detectors. SFX: Shall we play a Game? Joel: The recent news that Washington really cares about this issue is promising. It's an election year. We've talked about the chaos that could ensue with deep fakes phone calls from Joe Biden that aren't Joe Biden, that really scares politicians a lot. Well, guess who makes the laws? The politicians. So in the last 60 days, they have moved really fiercely to make sure that Meta and some of these big tech companies, number one, it's illegal now to do that. So the FTC, now, if you're a candidate and you deep fake politicians and like you could be in trouble. We're not sure what those penalties are, but at least, the government has said that's illegal. So the fact that the government cares about these issues to me is a good sign. I don't know where it will go or how fast it will evolve. Joel: But with Washington has their attention on this issue. I don't know who's representing these cases. I don't know if it's Dewey Cheatam & Howe, and our friends, Baron and Budd. But lawyers smell blood in the water. They smell an opportunity where they can go after companies like CVS has more money than HireVue. So like, let's go after them. Workday has a lot of money, LinkedIn, the lawsuit with them. So like, I think it's more lawyers targeting looking at these laws and saying, who can we get? And these are the top of the list. We need a healthy balance of laws, so that everyone knows the rules. And we need, I think a greater certification, a greater sort of third party that has everyone's trust that we're doing it the right way and FairNow. Joel: And companies like that, I think are in a really great position to say, look, we've worked with the government. We have all the AI stuff. We're making sure that every company is dotting their I's and crossing their T's. So if you take us to court, we are certified FairNow, or whoever it is, that they can go into court and say, look, we're the law of the land. We're doing this the right way. Until then, it's still the Wild West. We're gonna talk about more and more lawsuits. More and more customers like CVS are gonna be worried about using vendors that have ai because they're gonna worry about, am I gonna be dragged into court because I'm using this vendor? Well, yeah, you are. And by the way, a lot of these terms and services on these companies say, if you use our shit, you're at fault if it goes to court. Like, we're not at fault if you use our stuff. So something's gotta come to a head. Chad: HireVue specifically did that. Joel: Yes. And more and more will, because nobody wants to be sued. That's not fun. It's bad for business, so to speak. So I think government giving a shit about this is a good thing. Companies that are dedicated to like, let's make sure everyone's following the rules or let's certify people is a good thing. But until then, there's gonna be some stories like this. And more and more stories like this. Chad: Agreed. Joel: Because there's money to be made. Chad: There is. Joel: And speaking, speaking of money to be made, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about Deel doing some deals or at least one deal... Joel: Hey, Workday, hold my beer. Deel. That's D-E-E-L. A $12 billion HR business focusing on distributed workforces, is acquiring Zavvy, an AI-based people development startup. This move aligns with Deels shift towards more AI integration and expanding its service portfolio, Deel plans to make its HR tool free for all existing customers. In terms of the deal, get it, Chad? Terms of the terms of the deal? Was that not good? That was... Chad: Deal. Joel: All right. We're not disclosed, Chad, as TechCrunch says in their article, "consolidation is afoot in the world of HR services." No shit. Chad, what are your thoughts? Chad: So Deel is one of the few unicorns that are killing the game right now. So remember we reported that Deel's annual recurring revenue are over 400 million, and they have been profitable, hear that? Profitable since September, 2022. So Zavvy a people developments, performance and training programs platform, that's not something that you want to build from scratch. So use some of those unicorn blocks to buy something that actually gives you a much faster way to expand your total addressable market. Which means Deel can now go take Zavvy to their 25,000 clients and start expanding wallet share. They're gonna have a free version, it sounds like. Get out there, get the tentacles out there, and then boom, they're gonna have some paid versions. I can almost guarantee you. Let me also quickly point out that the TechCrunch article also said, "originally Deel approached Zavvy with a partnership proposal before making an offer to buy it outright." If you are a startup founder and you don't have an understanding of the power of partnership development, hire someone immediately who does. This is how deals fucking happen. Get it deals. This is how it happens. Joel: I'm not the only one making dad jokes around here people. It's interesting you mentioned partnerships like, going back to the Workday deal. Athena and her team had made a really concerted effort apparently to get into Workday and integrate and build that relationships. So yes, those relationships do pan out many, many, many times. So this is what successful companies do. And that team goes out and says, what pieces do we need? What companies can we target? This wasn't like a small deal. Joel: Zavvy's valuation was 16 million at one point. It's a small deal for Deel. Let's be honest, they were founded in 2021. So they really hadn't gotten a lot of time to get traction. I don't know what it was about them. Clearly it was a piece that they needed, maybe some of their skill sets and the talent that was on the Zavvy team really fit well into what Deel is looking for. Joel: But look, these apex predators, we've talked about it, it's clearance rack time at TJ Maxx. These companies are looking to sell, the runway is shorter than it used to be. The profits aren't what they used to be. It's time to sell. And if Zavvy's not making those calls, Deel and others with money are making those calls. And we're gonna talk a lot about consolidation this year. On the big end, like we're about to talk about, or the big eating a small fish, there's gonna be a lot of consolidation. And I think Deel is gonna be at the forefront of gobbling up some of these companies that are not super expensive, but have a lot of value and are up and coming and fill a need within Deel's feature set. Chad: To one point, Zavvy's only been around for a couple of years. And yet again, they were acquired. Timing, timing. You miss every shot, you don't take. So if you're not creating these partnerships, so if you're not trying to at least talk through, and it takes a while to get these partnerships done, integrations, those types of things doesn't matter. It's fucking worth it. Portfolio penetration. Not to mention also opportunities like this. So no matter how early you are in the funnel as a startup, start having those discussions right out of the gate. Joel: Yeah. And by the way, we talk a lot about the companies who take too much money are the ones that... Are usually the ones on the short end of the stick. Zavvy raised $4 million. That's a really nice place to be as a startup. You're still very saleable. You've got enough money to get you through some timing. So like, applaud their efforts. Going back to Eightfold, going back to Beamery. A lot of money raised, very few options when you do that, and I think that's gonna be prevalent for them in the coming months. Well, we talked about one acquisition that we like. Let's talk about another one that I don't know, I guess the jury... SFX: 60% of the time it works every time. Joel: Might be still out for opinion. Hey, Workday and Deel, hold our beer says, First Advantage, who acquires Sterling Check in a $2.2 billion cash in stock deal to bolster its background screening services. The merger aims to generate at least 50 million in cost savings and create a combined firm with around 1.5 billion in annual revenue. First Advantage, CEO Scott Staples will lead the new entity focusing on AI, tell me if you heard that one before, driven automation and growth opportunities. The deal values each share of Sterling Check at $16.73 cents a share. That's a 35% premium to its previous closing price. Chad, what are your thoughts on these two Megalodons getting together and creating one huge background check company. Chad: I first remembered back that in 2012, Findly acquired First Advantage. Remember that? Findly was a gobbling up companies and they were doing it through Symphony Talent Group money, right before they were rebranded as Symphony Talent. So back then, First Advantage was acquired in 2012. They were then First Advantage was acquired by Silver Lake in late 2019. Silver Lake has raised a total of 3.1 billion in funding over four rounds. Their last funding round on August 1st, 2023. So whether we think background checks are exciting business or not, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. So it's definitely a segment that needs disruption because the personal information a company keeps on an individual should be the individuals not stored in an applicant tracking system or a background check database somewhere. It's what we've been talking about. We've seen European legislation, GDPR and even the US signaling that the days of building resume databases and housing personal information are nearing their end. So knowing all of this, this market segments will be disrupted, much like the little old, OpenAI leaped over big names like Google and that was just in a single bound. I see something like that happening with the background check companies. Now, Silver Lake has a shit ton of cash. The question is, are they going to be looking for that disruptor or are they just gonna sit back on their piles of cash and not worry about it? Joel: I'm gonna go with the latter on that one. Look, we're gonna be going from three publicly traded background check companies to one. HireVue's now gone effectively, they're gonna be CareerBuilder by private equity. Chad: HireRight. Joel: And then these guys... HireRight. Sorry. The edibles are kicking in clearly on this episode. It's interesting that you mentioned history, because I thought back to the early job board days. There was a time where you had CareerBuilder, Monster and HotJobs. CareerBuilder got private equited, and Monster Public Company, HotJobs was public, got bought by Yahoo. Monster went in, bought HotJobs. We know how that ended, how all of that ended. Nobody was better off. Fortunately, you had a disruptor like you mentioned in Indeed at the time. Job postings aren't sexy, but they're not going anywhere. Joel: Background checks aren't sexy, but they're not going anywhere. This is a commoditized business. It's a brace to zero. But when you have two companies that are valued at 2 billion, they come together. Like you can fend off the Meteor shower in the end of days a lot longer, when you make those kinds of moves. But I was thinking about that industry. The question is, is a Checker gonna be the disruptor? I don't know. But I think it's a great opportunity for them to be the non sort of big company and in background checks. I think, we talk about Fama, there's an opportunity for Fama to go upstream where there's still tons of mom and pop background check companies. I know, 'cause I worked with a few of them at employee screen that went off and did their own little background checks. Joel: Like Fama could get more into the holistic background check and social media check business. That would be kind of interesting. But ultimately this is two dinosaurs, cuddling, hoping to fend off the end of the world. What is interesting is when I was researching this deal, both Sterling and First Advantage, well over half of their employee base are in India, which is basically sweatshop for background checks. So if they can just eliminate 40% of that workforce, like they're gonna be more profitable and take a lot of the duplication out of the business. So this will be a nice deal. But look, background checks are still boring. They're still a shitty business. It's still a race to the bottom. And now you'll have less... As a consumer, you'll have less in terms of optionality than you did before. Joel: Which means a raise in prices, which yes, opens the door for a disruptor. If I'm Checker, I'm in some serious meetings because I was less valued in 2021 at $4.6 billion and this deal at half that means we better create some value. We better get the shit in gear and start either buying or merging with companies that can help us. But Checker needs to be really strategic right now and say, this is an opportunity for us and if they take advantage of it, great. If not, we'll have other stuff to talk about. Chad: Hey Ben Mona is over at Fama. If the phone rings and you see it says Checker on it, you might want to answer it. Joel: Yeah. Ben's probably getting a few calls these days. Chad: I'm sure he is... Joel: With all this activity. Oh man... Chad: Good For him. Joel: And what a great guy. Hopefully, we're talking about Fama getting paid here soon. Speaking of getting paid though, Chad. Let's get to Indeed. Which aside from OnlyFans, I think is our full bingo card is full for all of our listeners. It seems like your Indeed resume subscription will be replaced by Indeed Smart sourcing starting on April 2nd. There are some changes to pricing and features such as a price freeze for standard subscriptions, but an increase in additional contact purchases to $5. Professional subscriptions will see a price increase to $400 per month with unlimited additional contacts and shared contacts pricing at $4. The new features in Indeed Smart sourcing, that's a mouthful, focus on automation, matching technology, team collaboration and productivity and probably AI too. Anyway, Chad, what are your thoughts on the Indeed pricing? Chad: You'd think they'd learn. Just changing the name of something doesn't mean that they can just go raise prices. They tried that with the CPSA or whatever the hell they want to call it. Cost per started apply. And that got... That went down in flames. It's like, okay, we're gonna change the name. We're gonna add some of this matching... These great matching algorithms, which we've talked about all the time. LinkedIn, Indeed. Most of these companies who should be amazing at matching candidates to jobs are shit. So all you're doing is giving me your shit tech and then you're charging me more for all of this. No, no, thank you. I wanna go back to the cheaper version, which is not gonna be available. So the question is, will this "pilot" actually be kicked to the curb after all of the people are like, no fuck you. I don't want that. I want what I had. Joel: Yeah. It's easier to get under the radar when it's part of your like terms and service. Or sort of a term terms and service still. Look, this to me is like, okay, customer, you don't want the PPA, you don't want other pricing model. We're gonna stick it to you in a much more subtle way with smart sourcing or like... Of all the names, not like a growth industry, sourcing. Why they would pick, like why not just the Indeed resume coal mining project or something. This is like, we're gonna make money no matter what. We're just gonna do it in a more covert way than we did before. As we're talking about history, Indeed's initial resume access product, you probably remember this, was a dollar per resume. Joel: If you wanted to contact the person, it cost you a dollar, which I thought was beautiful. Like, okay, I see the resume. If I wanna contact this person, I gotta pay a dollar. Like, that's easy. So this is sort of a nickel and dime. It looks small, but it's probably bigger at the end of the day than it was before. But yeah, Indeed, we see you, we see what you're doing. And now all our listeners see what you're doing too. And I hope you get to field a lot of phone calls asking about this new pricing model. This new Indeed Smart sourcing product. Tell them Chad and Cheese sent you. Chad: They'll never learn. They Just won't. Joel: They will never learn. They'll never learn. So evil. All right, man. Let's take a quick break and close them with what they want. A little OnlyFans news. Joel: All right, Chad. Drea de Matteo known for her role in the Sopranos... Chad: Oh, hello. Joel: Credits OnlyFans for saving her life. No shit. Chad: What? Joel: Stating she paid off her mortgage in five minutes joining the platform facing financial difficulties due to being out of work and caring for a parent with dementia, she turned to OnlyFans after having just $10 in her bank account. Chad, what are your thoughts on this life-saving technology called OnlyFans? Chad: Well, two things. First off, just five minutes? And secondly, if it only took five minutes, I wanna see those pictures. 'Cause they've gotta be amazing. They have to... Five minutes to be able to totally just blow away somebody's debt. They've gotta be amazing. She's 52 years old. She looks wonderful, but you'd better be able to see the Jesus toast or something like that out of this. Joel: Well, it highlights the power of OnlyFans, and how many just horny dudes are out there ready to spend some money. If if you don't know her, she was in Sons of Anarchy. She was the girlfriend or sort of the mistress of the main character, but she was also in Joey. Chad: Really? Joel: The spinoff from Friends. Do you remember Joey? Chad: I do not. I never watched it. No. Joel: Oh, did you watch Friends? Chad: Oh yeah, of course. Joel: You weren't too good for friends, were you? Chad: Yeah. Joel: So Friends is over. Joey Tribbiani, he gets his own show. He moves to LA. She played his sister in the show. Her name was Gina Tribbiani. So she was in that. So if you don't know her from the Sopranos, which nobody watched, you probably watched Joey and you remember her from that show. So she was apparently a big anti-Vaxxer. And she went on interviews and she was blackballed by Hollywood apparently, this is part of her story. I did love what she said. She says, "anybody who wants to condemn me and put me down, go for it. I just hope you never find yourself in the position I was in to take care of two little kids." Her house was in foreclosure and she had lost her mom. Like she was in bad times and this thing bailed her out. So the old adage of those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Drea, like you said, Chad is her age. 52, looks great like us. So if this isn't a sign that Chad and Cheese should finally launch our highly anticipated OnlyFans page, then I don't know what is. I mean, come on man. I got three kids still at home and you got a blossoming real estate empire in Europe. Let's do a Thalman Louise. Let's hold hands and jump off this cliff together. What do you say, lover boy? Chad: No. Joel: Shit. Chad: We out. We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Oh, maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

This week on The Chad & Cheese Podcast Does Europe, the boys dive into the world of recruitment aggregators and the challenges they face with the rise of AI in talent acquisition. They discuss how some aggregators are adapting with personalization and AI capabilities, while others struggle to evolve and invest, potentially leading to their demise. The podcast also covers the potential rise of pay-per-apply models driven by AI predictions. Plus, they share their thoughts on recent industry news, including the shutdown of Finnish HRtech startup Workfellow, the launch of Amsterdam-based Samen Slimmer AI's venture Qneiform, the legal ruling affecting anonymity of reviewers on sites like Kununu, HelloWork's impressive growth and the birth of JobiJoba (what?) and a whole lot more. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. [music] Intro: Hide your kids, lock the Doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah. Three guys who just imposed a few sanctions of their own on Russia. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, Does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel Jamieson Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad, short-form video, Sowash. Lieven: I'm Lieven, did I mention we're organizing E-recruitment Congress yet? Van Nieuwenhuyze. Joel: Once or twice. Once or twice. On this episode, AI threatens, Germany tells Kununu, ku-no-no and HelloWork, more like Hello Prophets. Am I right? Let's do this. Chad: They're not called sanctions when you do it Cheeseman, they're called spanctions. [laughter] Lieven: Step bro. Joel: Spanctions. What's up boys? Chad: Another day in paradise, kids. I'm just excited. I'm getting prepped for a little, I don't know, time in Amsterdam. Time with Lieven, huh? Joel: Hello? Lieven: Yeah. Some love in Amsterdam. SFX: What are you doing step-bro? Joel: Are you excited to see us Lieven? Lieven: I am. I actually am. It's been so long. Chad: It has been a while. Lieven: So long. Joel: Lieven parachutes in on those shows and we see him for like 12 minutes. Chad: He does. Joel: And he's out. He's James Bond of conferences. Chad: Comes in, shakes some babies, kisses some hands. Lieven: Busy, busy, busy. Joel: So Lieven, I'm curious. We're getting a lot of new stories and editorials here in the US about the two year anniversary of Ukraine. As a European what's the consensus there? What's the talk over there, across the pond about Ukraine? Lieven: We're still deciding on not letting Russia win. Macron, the French President, just for the first time mentioned sending troops to Ukraine. And that's something, yeah it's something different. It's something else than just sending our F-16, sending troops. SFX: Shoutout. Chad: All right. Shout out to the EU. That's right. This is the European podcast. It just makes sense. Joel: That's why we do this show man. Chad: The EU will investigate whether ByteDance's TikTok breached online content rules aimed at protecting children and ensuring transparent advertising. EU industry chief, Thierry Breton, stated "Today, we open an investigation into TikTok over suspected breach of transparency and obligation to protect minors." A lot behind that. TikTok's owner, ByteDance, could face fines up to 6% of its global turnover, that's global revenue for all you Americans out there, if TikTok is found guilty of breaching DSA rules. Now, expected revenues for TikTok in 2024, $9.4 billion, 6% of that would be over half a billion Euros. This! I love me some TikTok, but I love this new fine structure even better from the EU and hopefully the US looks to adopt it. Joel: All right, I skipped to my shout. Here's a teaser. SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, if it's not Scottish, it's trash. Joel: Alright, on last show, I mentioned, I gave a shout to Six Nations, the rugby tournament. There's a great Netflix documentary, which I think Chad, you just watched or watched some episodes. February, like beginning of March in the US is horrible for sports. Football's over, hockey's like right in the season. Basketball, no one cares like until March Madness, we have this gap. And thank God that Six Nations for me, I'm embracing it. We had Scotland and England. Lieven: Yeah. Joel: Which are two of the better teams apparently. It was what one, LinkedIn connection told me was a cracker, which apparently is a good game. [laughter] Joel: If it's a cracker. Cracker has a different meaning in the US but if a game is a cracker, it's a hell of a game. So I'm down with it. I got Peacock just so I can watch these things. We're gonna be in Europe for St. Patrick's Day. St. Patrick's Day, we get Ireland versus Scotland. I'm all in, I'm down with it. Another shout out to Six Nations and rugby in general. Chad: It's like Italy's get another wooden spoon. Joel: Wooden spoon. And Ireland, two years straight. Scotland could stand in the way. It's gonna be an interesting game. Chad: Ireland is a fucking juggernaut, dude. Joel: And I gotta tell you, Chad, as a parent, you try to embrace things that your kids enjoy. Chad: Yes. Joel: For whatever reason, my son loves Manchester England and he loves Man United. Chad: There we go. Joel: So we have bonded in the last few weeks over Manchester United... Chad: Dig it. Joel: Who's a pretty good team, with some pretty good players. So yeah, I'm embracing Premier League Soccer as well. God help me. Lieven: Man U are crackers. Don't you use it like that. Joel: We are crackers. Yes. Yes. Lieven: You said... Chad: Man U and crackers. Did you see what he just did there? My God. What's your shout out Lieven? Lieven: My shout out actually has something to do with recruitment. Joel: Yeah. Lieven: Which brings us back to our business. It's a shout out to Accent's new CEO, and Accent is one of our bigger companies within the group. They have new CEO and this is nothing new because we have 52 companies. There's constantly some new CEO somewhere. But this one is actually pretty interesting. His name is Stijn Vandervorst, and he used to be working for the past, I think 12 years or something in Japan where he was a president of... I keep forgetting how to pronounce the name in English. Chad: Adidas. Joel: Adidas. Lieven: Adidas. That's the one. Chad: Adidas. Lieven: Adidas. Joel: You got a premier league spot. Lieven: Maybe I should call it Nike, it's easier. But it was Adidas. And the thing I like about it is he's really experienced within e-commerce. And I've been saying for years, we should manage our recruitment like e-commerce website. Because it's about speed and it's about convenience and it's about trust. So I'm very happy now we're bringing someone with that background into our company in a senior role so we can speed the digital recruitment up a bit. So welcome Stijn and my up-sucking is finished for now. Thanks. [laughter] Joel: Love it. Love it, love it. Well, do I hear... [music] Lieven: Yeah! Chad: That's the Kebu playlist. What's going on here? Lieven: Yeah. Chad: The E-recruitment Congress Kebu playlist. I love it. Joel: Kebu. That must mean we're going to Europe to see Lieven pretty soon. I can't wait. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Lieven. Tell us about this Kebu thing, tell us about the Congress, what the hell is going on? Chad: Well, first off, first off, you can't see it because we don't have it on video. Maybe I'll pull it out. But Lieven's face just lit up as soon as the synthesizer started playing. Joel: The white guy over by with the dance hands. [laughter] Lieven: I think. I think Kebu is a cracker. [laughter] Lieven: He's a cracker. Chad: All right, so what are we doing in, what are we doing in Amsterdam? Lieven: What you'll be doing in Amsterdam? I don't know, but Kebu is cool. And by the way, you promised me not to do it before the end of the Congress. So yeah, Congress, when is it? March 19th in Amsterdam. But we were talking about Kebu, Kebu is a Finnish guy and he's absolute specialist on analog synthesizers. And his channel has over 150 million views. So he's really big in a very small community and a community of synthesizer nerds. But the guy is really cool. He has a huge collection of vintage synthesizers. He is going to start his European tour with our Congress. So he'll be bringing some numbers during the show, during the Congress, but afterwards, I think it starts at 6pm or something, he's going to bring his whole new album, which will be synthesizer legends. And you just heard, I think it was what did we hear? Miami Vice? No? Joel: Jan Hammer. Ron Kebu. [laughter] Lieven: Jan Hammer. Of course. Yeah. It was... SFX: Oops, winning. Lieven: Isn't it from Miami Vice? Isn't that the opening tune? Joel: No, that's original. I've never heard that. Chad: That's a Kebu. Lieven: Oh yeah. No, but that one was a cover from, I think from in Miami Vice somewhere. Jan Hammer composed it. Chad: Yeah, you got me. Lieven: Yeah. Jan Hammer was a Czech synthesizer guy in the '80s, I think. And he was the Miami guy opening tune composer. But I think this wasn't maybe Miami Vice. Chad: Lieven listens to synthesizer podcasts by the way, guys. Joel: Here's all we have to know. A bunch of Europeans wearing black with a disco ball, keyboard... Lieven: It's not... No, no, no. Joel: If a keytar doesn't come out, I don't want it. There better be a keytar and working the boards. Lieven: It's even better than a keytar. He is got like those roll-ons... Joel: 200 of Kebu's biggest fans. I can't wait to see these people. It's going to be nuts. Lieven: I'll be standing on the front row because it's going to be a cracker. It's gonna be a cracker. [laughter] Lieven: Okay, so Kebu, it's one of the reasons why you have to be at E-recruitment Congress. Joel: Yes. Lieven: The guy came, especially from Finland, or will be coming, especially from Finland with a van filled up to the roof. Joel: He was in a Volkswagen van from 1967. [laughter] Lieven: He is going to be driving for two days straight on to be just on time to bring his famous Kebu songs. You'll love it, you'll love it. Joel: I love it. Give us those dates again Lieven and where they can sign up? Lieven: March 19th in Muziekgebouw, Amsterdam, which is a beautiful location. It's the best concert hall in Amsterdam and the Netherlands, I'm sure. It's amazing. Also, the tech will be wow. And Chad and Cheese will be hosting, so. Chad: Yeah, and that's where you sign up. You go to chadcheese.com/events. Chadcheese.com/events. That's where you sign up. There's even a discount code that Lieven doesn't want you to use, but use it. Lieven: No, because I was just... I was just going to say it's almost sold out. So we don't actually want people using discount codes anymore. So we would like everyone to pay the full... Yeah. It's only 680 Euros and you get Kebu. Kebu, I mean. Chad: Here is the code. Joel: Kebu is in the house everybody. Lieven: Author Hilke Schellmann, maybe for some people that will be more impressive than Kebu. Hilke Schellmann who just wrote a book, The Algorithm. You had her in our podcast. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Love me some Hilke. Lieven: Love you some Hilke indeed. Chad: Love me some Hilke and some AI. [music] SFX: Topics. Lieven: Topics. Joel: Lieven, did you have a thought there? Chad: No, he was doing topics. Lieven: I said topics. Joel: Oh, you said topics. Okay. All right guys. Is AI a threat or not? Recruitment aggregators are facing change with the rise of AI and talent acquisition. Some may struggle as AI-driven candidate applications increase impacting demand and ad spend. Those adapting with personalization and AI capabilities may thrive while others could perish due to a lack of evolution and investment. Pay-per-apply models might become more prevalent as AI helps predict application volumes. Winners, losers, Chad, your thoughts. Chad: Job boards have had to, job sites, any technology in the space has had to evolve quickly. And now because of the velocity of how fast everything's moving from a technology standpoint, it's gonna be more important than ever. Being able to just focus on PPC as we saw, Indeed tried to get a pay-per-application and pay-per-start and apply. They had a false start. I see them no question in the future doing that, going down the funnel and I see every other job board or job aggregator that's out there, they're going to have to do the same. You can't just play the same on the surface level model that you did before. You're gonna have to start going down the funnel and start looking for cost-per-qualified candidates. Did the person actually meet the requirements in the job, much like an MQL. Chad: So in sales and marketing for years, they've had MQLs, the actual qualified marketing leads, right? We need to get to something like that as well. Where we're going down the funnel, we know they meet the qualifications and that is worth a hell of a lot more than just a stink and click. Candidate screening and matching, candidate testing, if you take a look at, like LinkUp for instance, they used to be an aggregator and they've pivoted into the data side of the house. So I see a lot of these smaller job boards focusing on down funnel, more qualified. And then some of these bigger organizations, like a LinkUp did, they pivoted into data. So there's be a lot of pivoting that's happening. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Let's have a little history lesson kids. So in the early days of job boards, you would generally pick a category, sales, nursing, whatever, and then you would pick a location and then it would serve you the jobs in date order, not exactly the most efficient way to look for jobs. Keyword search came into it, which also led to keyword stuffing and keyword density issues. People putting all kinds of words in job postings. The algos got better. They knew titles were more important than say like text at the bottom of the page. Long story short, we haven't gone that far from where we originated 20, 25 years ago. I talk about LinkedIn on a fairly regular basis about how bad their related searches are. LinkedIn, okay, Microsoft owned, OpenAI, connected, engaged. It still thinks that I'm looking for host jobs at my local Chili's and Applebee's because I'm a co-host of a podcast. Not exactly mind-blowing AI going on at LinkedIn. Chad: Well, you actually go to those establishments a lot. Joel: LinkedIn, it's not tracking my location, I'm sure. Chad: You don't know that. Joel: Maybe it is. Maybe it is. Listen to this week's podcast. But I just think it's sort of a silly conversation because there are only few companies that have gotten this right, like Netflix. Netflix found out that people waste 17.8 minutes on average browsing possible TV and movie options before they actually select what they wanna watch. It's much more efficient to get better about what people wanna watch. TikTok grew because I didn't have to search, I didn't have to follow anybody. It just knew that I wanted bug fights and big booty Latinas, like magically knew that about me and kept serving me that because... Chad: Magically. Chad: It's my preference. Can anyone really see a day where we go to any job site and it just serves up what we want. I don't anytime soon, maybe, maybe not, but is this a threat? To me, this is a non-issue because we're so far behind TikTok and Netflix in this game that I don't even know why it's a discussion. We're still in the dark ages in recruitment and job search and knowing what people want and how to give them what they want, even when they don't even know that they want it like TikTok. So for me, like, it's a fun post to say is AI a threat and AI is on the tip of everyone's tongue. But look, we're still basically help wanted ads in the window, but that window has become a computer screen and we're still searching much like we did 20, 25 years ago. Lieven: So I think Joel, you're saying we need kittens, more kittens in the vacancies. Joel: I said bug fights. Lieven: I'm playing... Latinos, Latinos you said, right? Joel: Maybe some more Kebu. Lieven: Kebu. Yeah. Joel: Oh my God. It's like Pavlov's dog with him, man. Lieven: Anyway, okay. So if you ask the aggregators, will AI be a threat? They'll say, of course it won't be a threat. We will use it to offer better matchmaking. And thanks to AI, aggregators will be able to offer a better user experience by integrating high quality chatbots and blah, blah, blah. But if you look at aggregators today, why are they very good? Or why are they very known? It's because of excelling in search engine marketing. They own the search engine results pages. Lieven: Indeed, for example, is top of class, at least in Europe, and I guess in the US as well, in search engine marketing. The problem is search engines, they offer you websites. If you ask something, you get a list of websites. But tools like ChatGPT and Gemini and Copilot, they offer you answers. You ask a question, you get answers. So just imagine if you ask, and I did it, if you ask Gemini and Copilot and ChatGPT, something like, give me a list of five major companies which are hiring engineers in Brussels today, have a good reputation and pay better than average, then they won't tell you to go to Indeed. They'll just offer you a list with hiring companies. And they offer you the answer. And the intermediary is cut out, they're eliminated. And this might become a problem if you ask me for those aggregators, because ChatGPT is taking over their job as a platform. And I tried it and just with the three big ones, Copilot really sucks and they suck mostly at everything today. Lieven: So, but they suck at this as well and in a bad way. Gemini gave a pretty good answer, but ChatGPT like always was the best. And it actually offered me 5 major companies in Brussels hiring maintenance engineers. And according to some websites, ChatGPT claims to have checked, offered a bigger than average salary. And I checked the sites and it was right, those companies were actually hiring. So this is still basic, basic, but it could make a very big difference. And of course, I know those companies used to be good in search engine marketing, so probably they will become very good in AI optimization. But still, it's something new and they'll have to adapt. But we were talking about Kebu, right? [music] Joel: Behavior-wise, I go, someone dies, I'm like, how old was so-and-so? And Google just gives me the answer. I don't have to go to a website about the... I don't have to go to Wikipedia and their website, it just gives me the answer. I mean, job search for the most part is still archaic. I can't just say, what are the best jobs for SEOs in Indianapolis? And it gives me the 10 best. I still have to do some stuff. It doesn't just give me the answer. But what Lieven mentions is a real possibility. At some point, AI could know so much about you on Google or wherever we are, our Copilot will know what our profile is, it'll know what the jobs are out there and it'll say like, hey, there's a perfect job for you. You want me to apply to it? Sure. And it does the interview for you and it schedules you for the whatever like that's a real... Chad: Too far. Joel: That could happen, but it's probably not going to happen out of Indeed. It's probably going to happen out of the Google or like a big big AI company. Chad: Yeah, I don't know. I really see that... Okay, so first and foremost, all these AI models we've talked about, it's a commodity. Everybody has them, everybody's going to have them. Right? So they're going to be everywhere. The thing that differentiates all of those AI models is data. That's it. So if you take a look at some of these, let's say for instance, like a niche job board. They go into their database and they go into their database of candidates and then they start training off of the jobs that they're saying on a daily basis, come into the feeds and out. Chad: So you've got the job market side of the house. Then you also have the candidate data. And then you invite them back to answer more information, that kind of thing. And then you start to create a model that's more of an engagement model than it is just sit and wait. Because that's what we have now. We just sit back and we wait for stupid LinkedIn emails to come to you. They just don't match. We have technology and everybody's gonna have the technology to be able to match that much faster and then reach out via SMS, via email, whatever it is, say this job looks perfect for you. And then since we have your information, how about a one-click apply? I think that's much closer than you think. We have, I agree, been in the dark ages, but I expect, again, with the velocity of all this tech and how fast things are moving. That a lot of these companies, we'll talk about one of them later, a lot of these companies are going to have to. They're gonna be forced to change very quickly or die. Joel: The challenge is you're on Google every day, you're on Facebook every day. I mean, people go to job sites when they need a job, and then they don't go back. I mean, LinkedIn is the most probable winner in this. Because I know you're gonna say only recruiters and salespeople go to LinkedIn. Which that's a valid point. But I personally spend way more time on LinkedIn than any job board and they still suck at it. So like... Chad: You're in this industry. So yeah. Joel: But I'm there and they still don't know that much about me, apparently. Chad: No, I agree. Joel: So how can Indeed, where I go every two or three years because I need a job, how are they gonna know what my preferences are? Like it's really hard. Chad: Again, it flips the model, it flips the model. Instead of LinkedIn sitting there waiting for you to actually come in and do your thing, it's all about being able to force engagement, right? To be able to bring people back in by giving them relevant content, which job boards have not done for years. As you'd said, co-host, right? Has nothing to do with restaurants. Joel: If Indeed could just figure out how to bring bug fights into my job search, I'd be there a lot more often. [laughter] Chad: But again, that comes down to the going down the funnel. To be able to be more sticky, you have to get more data. To be able to get more relevant, you have to get more data, right? And these companies, these job sites have to get... These technologies have to get more sticky. Joel: Lieven, any thoughts before we transition? Lieven: No, no thoughts. Joel: We'll take a break from this. And come back with some hot takes. Chad: Should hit the Kebu again. Joel: All right, you want some more Kebu? Yeah, you know our listeners want some more of this. [music] Chad: Oh yeah. This is now what we're gonna call the hot take playlist. Joel: Hot take playlist. Because nothing's hotter than Kebu's keyboard, baby. All right. Lieven: By the way I checked, and this actually is Miami Vice. It's a theme song of Miami Vice and Kebu... No, sorry, Jan Hammer, he composed it. He composed the music for 90 episodes of Miami Vice until 2006. Joel: Is he gonna show up in a white suit with some pink T-shirt and some tapered bottoms? Chad: Enough Kebu already for God's sakes, Jesus. Lieven: And a Ferrari. Joel: Let's get to some hot take. Finnish HRtech startup Workfellow has ceased operations due to challenges faced in 2023, leading to bankruptcy. Founded in 2019, the company raised $3 million in seed funding led by OpenOcean with additional backing from Icebreaker.vc, both of which sound very Finnish. As in Finland for our US listeners. And a few angel investors. Lieven, you got a few thoughts on Workfellow. What you got? Lieven: Only one, just one. They used to be Finnish, but now they're finished. Next. [laughter] Lieven: I'm so funny. Chad: A dad joke. Lieven: Kebu is Finnish too and he's not finished. Joel: Kebu brings the best out of Lieven, doesn't it? Lieven: I know. Chad: So it's interesting because it looks like a Workfellow, much like SmartRecruiters, had a botched acquisition. Lieven: A what? Chad: Botched acquisition. They had an acquisition that was starting to come through and it just fell apart, right? I went on to Crunchbase to check out more about Workfellow, because I didn't know that much about them. And this is the description of the organization. "Workfellow is a work intelligence platform to accelerate enterprise digital transformation journey. Plug and play to see the next best development cases all the time." SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad: What the fuck was that? Then you get into their areas of solution. Digital transformation. Most people don't even know what the fuck that means. Improved automation, process development in accounting, real estate, telecom, global BPO, and procurement was supposed to be coming soon. I mean, they are all over the map. One of the biggest issues we see with startups is that they overcomplicate the problem, the product, and the solution story, right? And they don't stay disciplined in a specific category. Accounting, real estate, telecom, global BPO. What the fuck man? They're all over the place. It was too broad, too fast without the funds obviously, that they need. They only had 6.1 million USD. So this doesn't surprise me. Again, we see this with startups a lot. There's not enough discipline, they go all over the place, they try to PhD the marketing, and it all just implodes. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: I echo all of that. You know, when I first started reading through it, I thought, man, these guys just timed it just badly, because it's the year of efficiency, and what these guys do is make your organization more efficient. So in a world where they should be kicking ass, they're filing for bankruptcy. So, Chad, you're right on in that startups. You're in that seed round, that pre... That three to five million dollars. Focus, focus, focus. You need to be focused, and your customers and prospects need to know what the hell you do. If you can't explain it in an elevator ride or a three by five postcard, it's too complicated. You need to dumb it down. And we find this with companies. You said PhD it to death. You get too many brains, maybe there's a little desperation like well, this product isn't working, let's focus on this market. Oh, that's not working, focus on this. And before you know it, you're a salad of chaos. And what the hell are we doing? So, yeah. Chad: And no calories. Joel: And by the way, they hired too many people. They had almost 30 people hired. I mean, you can go through a few million dollars with 30 people, 30 employees real fast. And by the way, most of those people were not salespeople bringing in cash. So this was mismanaged, it was badly marketed, and it was like too much, too fast. And now, they are Finnish'd with two Ns. Thank you, Lieven for that. Lieven: You're so welcome. Chad: Anything to add, Lieven? Did you know these guys well or at all? Lieven: No, I've never heard about them. Joel: You could have bought them for real cheap. Lieven: Yeah, I checked their website, but I didn't know them before, but if they were launched in 2019, so they had a few years to spend the three million they got. But indeed, if you hire 30 people, it goes fast. Joel: They're the most happiest country on the planet, so I think they're probably going to do just fine. SFX: Another one. Lieven: Wasn't that Norway? Could be. Joel: All right, well, from Finland to Amsterdam. Lieven: Yeah. Joel: The Amsterdam-based Samen Slimmer has launched its first venture, Qneiform. Qneiform, based in Budapest, or as Chad likes to say, Budapest, also in London and the Netherlands, aims to transform talent acquisition in finance and law. Samen Slimmer AI put in 700,000 Euros in investment and a dedicated engineering team to help startups like Qneiform bring their products to market quickly. Don't say QAnon, it's Qneiform. Chad, your thoughts? Chad: Well, if there is any segment in this industry that needs disruption, it's executive search. So using algorithms to be able to identify, engage, and place executives faster will provide an opportunity for this company to squeeze competitor margins with lower fees and still make one hell of a profit. So I think there's no question. You take a look at some of the very high margin companies that are out there, executive search has been, and I believe it will continue to be that. How do you make it faster? How do you make it stronger? How do you make it cheaper, but still get a nice size margin? I like these guys. I like these guys so much that I might book a trip to Budapest just to... SFX: Oops, winning. Joel: I knew I'd get you to say it. Budapest. All right. Okay. Front runner for worst brand ever in our space. Qneiform is awful. No one can spell that, I can barely say it. Chad: That's a very good point. Joel: Like change the name ASAP. It's a horrible name. Okay, that aside, we don't know a ton about these guys because they are an invite only. You have to get on the waitlist to sort of see behind the curtain. But clearly, they're doing things right financially. They're growing at an organic pace. If you look at their LinkedIn data, they're adding headcount at a pretty organic rate with, I assume, profits. Their CEO has experience in recruiting. He was doing it for seven years apparently prior to the organization. I do think these segments of law and others are just right for innovation and disruption. And probably my favorite thing about this company is they're not afraid to talk a little trash. This is a quote from I think their blog post. It says, "Moonhub, Eightfold, Chad's favorite, Findem, HeroHunt, PeopleGPT all promised to revolutionize recruitment yet are based on the same poor quality data that has plagued recruitment for decades." Joel: So any startup who's willing to trash Eightfold, frankly, gets gold stars in my book. So Qneiform, change the name and you're onto something my friends. Chad: Executive Search, you know a little bit about this Lieven, right? Lieven: Yeah. You just said if there is one business that needs disruption, it's executive search. I'm not sure about that, but I'm sure if there's one business that is getting disrupted right now, it's law and the business where you don't want to be in today, I think as a search and selection agency is in law profiles because all those jobs are getting automated right now. So where you used to have like one lawyer and five people helping the big lawyer, you'll only have one person helping the big lawyer right now. And there will come a day where the lawyer himself will be able to use tools like ChatGPT. So I think this is right behind translators is going down fast. I think finance is a very good runner up. So if those people, Qneiform, that's it, are specializing now in finance and in law, I wouldn't be the one investing in it, but that's only my two cents. Joel: Good enough. Good enough. SFX: Another one. Joel: All right. From Finland to Amsterdam and Budapest to Germany. In Germany, the Hamburg Higher Regional Court, which I've never been in, has ruled that companies have the right to know the identity of reviewers on sites like Kununu. For our American listeners, that's the equivalent of Glassdoor in Europe. Rejecting anonymity for reviewers, employers can also have reviews deleted, citing the need for review authenticity and employer protection against false reviews. Chad, your thoughts on the Kununu, no, no. [laughter] Chad: So in Europe, I'm sure this is a different country by country, but in Europe, I would expect that all of the worker protections that are in place would allow for employees to feel like they can be more transparent without employer retaliation, unlike here in the US when you fire somebody for looking cross-eyed at somebody. So Lieven, there are better workplace protections, especially in Germany, where they have strong unions. So why might employees feel like they need to be anonymous? Is there that fear that's there? Because you do have better protections than many, many other areas in the world. Lieven: If you're still working for the company, it's probably not a good idea to publicly complain about your employer. So then you might want to become anonymous because you want to stay there, but you also want to complain. But to be honest, I totally agree. Anonymous complaints should be banned because it's just not fair. If you want to attack a company, you have to be open with it and you have to be blunt enough to say it. It's just too easy to be anonymous and to tell all kinds of things if you can't be confronted with your talk. So I tend to agree with the banning of it. Chad: Yeah, I think the Kununus of the world, the Glassdoors of the world, one thing they can't do is ensure that that individual actually worked for the organization, right? It could be just trolls talking shit. Lieven: Yeah, of course. It could be a competitor. Chad: Yeah, that was one of the reasons why this ruling went that way, because you need to be able to prove the accuser did actually work, number one. And then secondarily, again, there are worker protections in place in Europe. But again, I think this is a much different discussion happening in the EU versus here in the US. Joel: Yeah This is from Publishers Weekly. I'm sure a publication we all read on a regular basis. Lieven: On a weekly basis, even. Joel: Weekly, sorry. Sorry. Yes. There you go. This is going to prove my point exactly. "The percent of US adults who read novels or short stories declined at a 17% rate from 45.2% in 2012 to 37.6% in 2022, the lowest share on record." Kununu doesn't have a legal problem, they have a humanity problem. No one reads anymore. These sites like Glassdoor and Kununu that rely on people literally going to a keyboard, and typing what's it like, the pros and cons of a company are so yesterday. People want to go on TikTok, they want to go on Instagram, they want to talk trash, and by the way, anonymity doesn't matter anymore. Gen Z doesn't care. They want the dopa hit of the likes and the love that they're going to get on TikTok. Joel: They don't care about upsetting a company. They'd rather get people love them on TikTok. So to me, the real threat to these guys is not the law, it's that people don't write or read anymore until they adopt some sort of video way to review these things. But even then, it's going to fail because no one's going to hang out at Kununu for video reviews. They're going to hang out on TikTok where in between the big booty Latinas, I get an occasional rant about how much it sucks working at Walmart. That's what people want to watch, that's the kind of content that people want to put on the internet. So to me, Glassdoor, Kununu, these are antiquated businesses. Who cares what the courts do? The human condition is going to put these folks out of business. They have bigger problems than the Hamburg Higher Regional Court. Chad: How long does Kununu have do you think, or even Glassdoor have before they are literally worthless? Joel: This is where I get into trouble, Sowash, because you put me on the hook for when is something going to die, and then I say it's going to die, and then you go online and say Cheeseman says Glassdoor is dead, and then all these haters come out. Chad: You love it. Joel: I love that dopa hit, and you love the dopa hit, so we're just as guilty as everyone else. But if these companies are around in 10 years, I'll be shocked. Chad: Yeah. How about you Lieven? What do you think? Lieven: Eight years. Eight years, yeah. Chad: Eight years. I'm going to bet a dollar. Go ahead. Lieven: I think we're going to cancel them all. The generation, what's it called, is going to cancel them all. Joel: Gen Z. Chad: Alpha, after them. SFX: Another one. Joel: All right. HelloWork, a France-based job board operator reported a 15.9% year-on-year revenue increase to USD 117 million in 2023, attributing its growth to acquisitions and investments in innovation. The company, which doubled in size over four years, plans further acquisitions and international expansion despite the recent passing of co-founder Jerome Armbruster which we talked about on the show. HelloWork has apparently achieved what few other job boards have done recently, continued growth and internationalization. Chad, what's your take on HelloWork? Chad: How can you have a job board with such a great name like HelloWork.com and then another one that you're talking about taking to the US, Jobijoba. Jobijoba I mean, I think it's a dot com. I can't remember. Anyway, those two sites accounted for 70% of the revenue, right? That's pretty legit. The company had previously said that it earmarked a minimum of $55 million for acquisitions between '23 and '26. So they're looking to acquire, they're looking to spread out and go to the US. But wait, there's more. Wait, there's more. Jobijoba once again is going to have a budget of several millions of Euros allocated to market it in the US. Joel: And they're going to need every penny of it. Chad: Yeah, I just don't understand why organizations who are doing incredibly well don't double down where they're doing well, because they understand that market. Taking Jobijoba... I'm making a prediction, taking Jobijoba to the US is going to crash. Right? And all the millions of Euros that they spend is going to be for naught. I hate to see this. I really hate to see this. I'd rather see HelloWork and Jobijoba stay in the EU, do really well, get better penetration. Joel: That's right. A job board success story. Chad: It is. Joel: Not so fast. Chad: It is. Joel: Not so fast, my friend. Chad: Not here. Joel: Not so fast. All right. The numbers look great, but I think they're a tad bit skewed. Chad: Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Joel: They've made acquisitions, which bring in money, but you haven't really innovated or built more customers. You've just bought companies that bring in more money. So that's great. But is it really like robust growth? I question that. Increased visibility, they quoted that in the press release. Increased visibility is Latin for a lot of advertising dollars. And like I said, they're going to need it for Jobijoba, Jabba the Hutt or whatever the fuck this job board's name is. So they're spending more. They're adding to the bottom line because they're spending more. You get the theme here, they're spending more, they're coming to different countries. Again, they're spending more money to set up shop in the UK, they're coming to Spain, Switzerland according to the press release. Look, it's pretty easy to copy and paste and open up in new countries, spend more money and hire more people there. They're falling into the same trap of Indeed, ZipRecruiter. It's this never ending cycle of spend more money, get more money in clients posting stuff. But you have to spend more money to get candidates to come to the site, which then apply to that. It's like this never ending cycle of advertising. And as soon as you shut that off, the traffic dries up. We've seen it multiple times in our... Chad: Super-bowl ads. Joel: Yeah, period in this industry. And good God, a name like Jobijoba makes Qneiform look like a good brand name. Good Lord. Who's in the marketing department at this company? We're taking Jobijoba to the US. Are you fucking kidding me, dude? Are you fucking kidding me? Chad: Wait a minute, Lieven loves him. His favorite T-shirt is his Jobijoba T-shirt. Lieven: I love myself a Jobijoba, but... Joel: I want a Jobijoba T-shirt. Hit me up. I'll give you my address in the US, and I'll be the first American to wear the Jobijoba brand on our shores, I promise. Chad: You can just send some to Lieven in Amsterdam and we'll just pick 'em up there. It'd be much easier. Joel: Yes. Give me a case of Duval and put that in the box. Lieven: So people, I feel obliged... Listeners of Chad and Cheese, I feel obliged to tell you something. Every time Jobijoba was mentioned, they'll get one bottle. They were promised by Jobijoba one bottle each time they mentioned their name. So this explains. Anyways, we were talking about HelloWork... Chad: It is fun to say. Lieven: HelloWork, not Jobijoba. Does it come for me as well? Getting the bottles? Jobijoba. But HelloWork. It's French and that's about anything positive I can say about them I feel. I prefer Jobijoba. Joel: Maybe that makes sense. It's a European name, but I'm telling you as an American my whole life, this Jobijoba is not happening in America. It ain't. Chad: Well, I mean they're looking to expand the UK. They've got all these other areas that they're looking to expand again. Joel: Unless they call Disney and get Jabba the Hutt as their spokesperson, Jobijoba is not happening... Chad: It's still not going to. Joel: In America. Chad: Still not going to work. Lieven: I love it. Chad: Something that looks like a big pile of shit. SFX: 60% of the time... Chad: Is not attracting people. SFX: It works everytime. Joel: Okay All right. Let's move on to Goot Job. Yeah. Germany's Zeit Publishing Group has acquired a majority stake... Chad: Zeit. Joel: In Berlin's GoodJobs, not Goot Jobs. Terms were not disclosed. GoodJobs ensures job postings aim to have a positive impact on the environment and society. The group sees the investment as expanding its offering to a relevant and attractive market segment, which is Latin for Gen Z. Chad, what are your thoughts on GoodJobs? Chad: I think I want to hear from Lieven on this one. This is... We talked about in podcasts past about newspapers getting behind some of these organizations, which provides more power obviously and money to them. Here in the US, we kind of laugh at that, but Lieven had actually said that that's something that actually means something over there. Give me some feedback here Lieven, what do you think about this? Lieven: So GoodJobs is focusing on social and sustainable jobs. So if you ask me, it smells like underpaid. So GoodJobs might sound good, but it's not so good paid jobs, I feel, definitely in Germany. But anyways, if you're Gen Z and you want to make yourself useful, definitely go to Goodjobs.eu and become a better person. I myself was from Gen X and I went for the money. SFX: Oops winning. Lieven: So GoodJobs you have goods, then you have better, and you have best, but you can start at GoodJobs. Chad: Yeah, I mean the only thing I can say about this is again, we're still seeing whether we like it or not, proliferation of job boards that are not just going out there as in HelloWork and the HelloWork group actually making cash, but they're getting investment. Again, the market is much different in Europe than it is in the US but still there's cash to be had and the there are hills of job boards and obviously GoodJobs is seeing some of the good cash. Joel: Yeah, I think on the weekly show, we talked about Hatch in Australia and I said yeah somebody must've been stung by a scorpion or some other poisonous, somebody at GoodJobs had some bad schnitzel in this case. Look, I know everyone wants to be the cool thing. They want to be like Gen Z darlings. This ain't your daddy's Studebaker, right? They want to be the cool thing. We're all about the environment, we're all about all those things that Gen Z loves. And unfortunately for X, all the three X'ers on this call, Gen Z is the future. They're the largest generation the world has ever seen, I believe. Anyone can correct me on that, which means they're going to be a myriad of services and products that are aimed to get their business. And for better or worse, the kids love the ESG narrative and GoodJobs and Hatch are a trend that we all get to enjoy as old white people, that this is the way that it's going to be. Is it going to be successful? I doubt it. We're talking about cold hard cash Lieven, we're talking about opportunities, we're talking about advancing your career, not saving the planet. Although that's nice to think about when you do it. Get off my lawn Sowash. Lieven: Young punk, but I think Gen Z might be the biggest population if you look at it from a global perspective. But in the West, it's definitely a small one if you compare it to the baby boomers, Gen Z, is actually it's pretty small. And I really still feel GoodJobs is a terrible name because then someone launches BetterJobs and you're totally fucked IN GoodJobs. So you never should call yourself good. Chad: And again, taking a look at Gen Z as a target market in Germany alone, you're looking at less than 14% of the German population. That's 11.5-ish, 0.6 million people. Is that a large enough segment to actually make money off of? That's the question, right? And is it too broad and are they way too entry level at that point? Because yeah, you're not going to get a great job as an entry level. Lieven: Definitely not on GoodJobs. If you only got GoodJobs, you won't find a great job. No. Chad: Do the economics actually work behind this, which is what we talked about with Hatch. Lieven: 11, or how many people did you say? 11 million or something? Chad: 11.5 million. Yeah. Lieven: That's still a lot of people. If those becomes your candidates, your client, that's a lot of clients. So. Chad: If you get 'em all, yeah, if you get 'em all. Lieven: Even if you get a small percentage of them, it's still plenty. But questions are are those people, will they... The moment they graduate and the moment they enter the job market, will they still be interested in the social part of it? I'm not sure if I look at my students, they're all very Gen Z until they start looking for a job and then they want to have cash, definitely. Joel: And there's also a bigger picture. GoodJobs is a publication. They have other good stuff that they're growing. So they're trying to build this whole monolithic holistic thing, and jobs is... Chad: Ecosystem. Joel: Yeah, like jobs is a piece of it. So they don't need to have every Gen Z person using it to call it a success. But look, historically publications that try to be a lot of things to a lot of different people usually end up being nothing to no one. See ya! See you soon Lieven. See you soon. Lieven: See you soon, Dean. Joel: And we'll also be seeing... Chad: Going out on some Kebu. Lieven: That's right. Yes. Joel: That's right. Chill the dooble. Lieven: I love it. Joel: Fire up the red light district Lieven. We're coming to Europe. Another one in the can boys. We'll see you soon. We out. SFX: We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? A podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know, and yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. This is so weird. We out.

Live from TA Week in San Diego from the Qualifi booth, the boys chat with Brian Fink, a TA partner at McAfee, and discussed the recent changes to LinkedIn and the impact on sourcing and recruiting. The conversation also touched on the competition between LinkedIn and other platforms like Google, Bing, and X. Specifically, Fink details the recent changes to the way LinkedIn displays profiles, which can affect how recruiters find and engage with potential candidates. He also highlighted the importance of using different search engines like Google and Bing to find candidates and the potential benefits of each. The role of Microsoft in the competition between LinkedIn and other platforms was also discussed, with the potential impact on recruiters and job seekers being a key point of interest. The rise of alternative platforms like Polywork and the potential for new competitors to emerge in the recruiting space were also mentioned. Fink emphasized the importance of recruiters being adaptable and not relying solely on one platform like LinkedIn for sourcing candidates. He also stressed the need for recruiters to be creative and think outside the box when it comes to finding and engaging with candidates. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide, your kids lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It's Sean Carter's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Really? Joel: I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Scooby to my Shaggy, Chad Sowash is in the house. We're recording live from the Qualified Booth at TA week, and we have with us right now, Brian Fink, TA partner at McAfee, also experience at Twitter, Apple, and AWS. Chad: Never heard of him. Joel: And an author, so you're kind of a big deal Brian. Brian Fink: I'm not a big deal. Chad: He's a big deal. Whatever. Brian Fink: No, dude. I stand on the shoulders of great people like Steve Levy or Dean Da Costa, or Shelley Stockwell. Chad: I love it. Brian Fink: Maybe that's why I'm so fired up about what we're gonna talk about today, about what we're gonna get into, about what's transforming TA, what's keeping people awake. How are you guys going? What do you think the vibe is like on this floor here today? Chad: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Joel: Simmer down for a second. Some of our listeners don't know you. Brian Fink: Oh. Joel: Give them kind of the Twitter bio about what makes Brian Fink. Chad: Just in case. Just in case. Brian Fink: Okay. So in less than 500 characters, my name is Brian Fink. I'm a TA partner at McAfee Security. We help keep people safe online. I am passionate about finding ML, NLP, Machine Learning pros who want to keep the world safe and make it a better place. What that means to me as a recruiter is that I've gotta teach other recruiters the skills that I employ so that they can do the same or better at different organizations. Joel: So you're a giver. Brian Fink: I'm a giver. I'm not a taker. Chad: He is a giver. So much heart. So much heart. Joel: A sourcing Santa Claus, if you will. Brian Fink: I like to think of myself as a Hanukkah Harry, but it's okay. Little John Levitt's here for us. Joel: We don't discriminate. Chad: He's excited. I can't keep him off of this. Joel: He's unbound, unleashed. Chad: We've been talking about this crazy LinkedIn shit that's happening and... Brian Fink: What do you mean LinkedIn? People are going to it and they're finding candidates. That's what's going on? Chad: What? Oh, okay. No, that's not it. Brian Fink: Oh Okay. So crazy LinkedIn shit. Chad: Yes. Brian Fink: So I was talking to Joel and I was really pissed off. That's where I'm at, is that there are a lot of scare tactics that are going around right now because LinkedIn made a change to the code that appears on the page of a profile page. However, in this blow up that everybody is talking about, there's this confusion about whether or not you can x-ray which is site command colon linkedin.com to find candidates or not. I'm here to tell you it still works. If you want, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm more than happy to show you how this still works. Chad: And they call this operator, an x-ray? Brian Fink: Well, they call it the site command, but X-ray was a term that was coined by the people at AERS when AERS was rolling out the CDR. Chad: Oh wow. Back in the day. Brian Fink: The way back machine. Right? Chad: Oh, AERS. Brian Fink: So if you go site command colon linkedin.com/in, it will pull up profiles of individuals around the globe. Chad: Okay. Joel: These are queries in Google, correct? Brian Fink: Google and the bing.com. Joel: And Bing. Okay. Brian Fink: And DuckDuckGo. Chad: Oh, and the bing.com. Brian Fink: And ironically, we were surfing on this on Friday with Thomas, escaping last name. Joel: That's okay. Brian Fink: Runs a recruiter meetup for sourcing and recruiters that specialize in the GovCon space. Chad: Okay. Brian Fink: So he was running that on Friday and the question came up, dude, does this still work? And I was like, yeah, let me show you. And I showed them in Google, showed them in Bing. I showed them in DuckDuckGo. And I showed it in Yahoo 'cause like, I don't know why, but Yahoo was some suddenly relevant for the conversation. Chad: Again? Brian Fink: Yeah. The yahoo.com? Joel: Pretty sure Bing runs Yahoo now. So when you say Bing, you're kind of covering DuckDuckGo and Yahoo. Brian Fink: You are. But the thing is that with Bing, Bing displays the results from LinkedIn in a different capacity, Joel. Joel: Well, they own LinkedIn, so maybe... Brian Fink: Oh! Maybe that's why it hasn't... Joel: Maybe that's why it's... Yeah. Chad: That could be it. I don't know. Brian Fink: So all this talk about using Google exclusively has me worried because it brings back different results when you use different search engines. And shout out to my friend Ronnie Bracher, who showed that it shows different results when you use different browsers, right? Like if you use, if you index Google, or use Google or use being, on Safari or on Mozilla's, Firefox, that it shows different results, right? Chad: Okay. Brian Fink: Why it shows different results, I'm a recruiter, I'm not an engineering leader. I'm not the guy that tells you why or how it indexes. [laughter] What I am gonna tell you though is that those people who are out there that are interested in selling courses on how to use LinkedIn, they are telling people that X-ray doesn't work. Okay? I'm here to tell you, I'm here to tell your listeners, I'll show your listeners that if you go and you go site command linkedin.com/in, space, "mark@gmail.com" that it's gonna pull back millions of Gmail addresses that are associated with LinkedIn profiles. Chad: And these are cached results. Brian Fink: Well, if it's cache results, that means that I've cached the entire internet on my MacBook or on my Dell Inspiron, right? Chad: No, I mean, 'cause you can actually search off of Google's cached results. They cache the information 'cause they index it. Brian Fink: Right. But more recent results will come up on Bing. So basically this is a Google cache issue with LinkedIn versus a Bing cache issue. Chad: Well, no, because it makes sense because Microsoft owns LinkedIn, right? So that ecosystem makes sense. This sounds almost like a squeeze, a Google squeeze to some extent. It almost sounds like we've uncovered, quote unquote "uncovered" a squeeze on Google because they've got the cached information. But if they can't get to the newest information, then Bing wins. Brian Fink: Chad, that's a good point where I also think there's the squeeze, and there's a monopolistic... Okay. I'm not an attorney. I didn't play attorney last night. Chad: Yes he did. Brian Fink: But I didn't stay at La-Quinta. [laughter] Joel: He played Proctologist, but that's a different podcast. Chad: Carry on. Carry on, carry on. Brian Fink: All right. So what we're looking at is there a scare tactic or is there a reality being driven to companies like RecruitBot or hireEZ or SeekOut or HireFind or Apollo to say, well, they're a cheaper alternative, but the publicly available data is not going to be publicly available anymore. Joel: Here's the ace in the hole, sorry to go back to the Proctology reference. Brian Fink: No, it's okay. I thought it was a Tappy Gilmore thing. Joel: LinkedIn will not kill Google. LinkedIn will not stop being indexed by Google. They may give different data or less data or different specifics to Google. But whereas they're more than willing to turn off a company that's scraping their data and giving it back to people for a solution, they're happy to close them down. They're never going to close Google down. So what you're basically saying is the hack to sourcing now is what's the source that LinkedIn will never turn off? And it's Google and in Bing in this case. So that will always be something that you could use. Chad: But Bing could prospectively provide more data because they have access to more data, right? So therefore, yes, LinkedIn wants to be seen by Google from a marketing standpoint, right? But do you give your other property, Bing... Brian Fink: An advantage. Chad: An advantage. Right. Exactly. Brian Fink: So the other the other question I would ask, as long as we're about indexing, why does LinkedIn have a feature inside of creator mode where you can go in and you can SEO your page or you can SEO your articles or you can SEO your newsletter, if it doesn't want that information to be indexed? Chad: Well, they want it to be seen. But again, I think it's more access. So let's say, for instance, if I can get more rich data off of Bing than I do Google, that's entirely different. So you're looking at being able to get more, especially if you're a recruiter. Let's say, for instance, if I can get more rich data about Joel's profile out of Bing, I'm going to start fucking using Bing. I'm not going to use Google anymore. Brian Fink: So I would go back to it and say, why weren't you using Bing in the first place? Because Bing has, as long as we're picking on Joel is if I go into Bing and I index him or X-ray, his profile or profiles like his on Bing, it shows me how many connects he has and how many followers he has. That's information that's not made available on Google. That's why I always say Bing has always been a richer source of information. Now, I do wonder if some of these changes that are taking place to the profile are so Bing can index things better through its use of leveraging ChatGPT and Copilot which is certainly there. Joel: If I'm getting really in the weeds on this. Chad: And we are. Brian Fink: Pull out the weed whacker, we're mowing the field. Joel: Could the LinkedIn move be a move by Microsoft to hurt Google in some way? In other words, we're going to drive more people to Bing or Microsoft properties because the data is fresher. There's more thorough data. So why would you be using Google searcher when you get much more robust data through the Bing search engine? Am I thinking too deeply into that? Brian Fink: No, I don't think you're thinking too deeply. And I would insert one four letter word. It's not a dirty word. I know you were excited. Chad: Damn it. Brian Fink: I would insert a four letter word that people have... You guys were at HR Tech and Viva, Microsoft had a huge booth for Viva. Right? Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Brian Fink: And when we think about skills based hiring and we think of Viva, how do you connect all that information and make it part of the ecosystem? Because Viva is a big play, right? Organizations that are enterprise orgs that have O 365 and have O 365 enhanced by Copilot. They're going to want to be able to take advantage of that as whether or not you believe retention is the new recruiting or promote from within happens to be a paradox that we need to explore. What about Viva? What about the ecosystem? Yeah, we're deep in the weeds. We're playing buzzword bingo. I'm here with Chad and Joel and we're having a good time. Chad: I love it. Get your dauber out. Joel: Let me dig into potential competition. Now you served some time at Twitter. Brian Fink: I did, I did, I did. Joel: And currently known as X now. Brian Fink: Yes. Joel: And Elon is on the record of saying we're going to make a LinkedIn competitor. Brian Fink: A cooler. Joel: LinkedIn killer. They obviously have profiles. They have the ability to do it. They just launched jobs. Are you bullish or bearish on Twitter/X becoming a LinkedIn competitor or job destination? Brian Fink: So for white supremacists, I think it's going to be a great tool. I think that Mr. Levy is giving me the cut it out motion. No, do I think it's... I think there's a lot of data on Twitter, but I don't think it's going to become a LinkedIn competitor. That's like looking at a tool like Polywork. I was really big on Polywork. I thought Polywork was going to be a silent killer. Chad: Me too. Joel: I was not. Brian Fink: Well, then maybe you have something if you're betting the house on Mr. Musk. But I don't think that it's going to be the resource because brands have fled from Twitter or from X or whatever they're calling it and I don't see that you're going to have a company like Disney or a company like Apple that gonna go as hard in the paint as they've gone with building their brand reputation on for employer branding on a Glassdoor or on a LinkedIn. Chad: Wait a minute. This just in, Twitter just added email alerts to their jobs. Oh my God, it's still 1999. Joel: That's called innovation check. Chad: Fuck me, man. Yes. Brian Fink: I'll fax those tweets to you later. You believe LinkedIn. Joel: I believe LinkedIn's brand is so entrenched. I don't know if anyone can be a competitor. Certainly not a startup out of the ether like Polywork. Brian Fink: I'm going to give credit where credit's due. I was on a recruiter therapy session that was sponsored by hireEZ. And Steve Levy called LinkedIn, OxyContin, because so many recruiters are addicted to doing the easy work that comes along with LinkedIn. Chad: Yeah. Brian Fink: Even though LinkedIn has all these members that are on it, I would argue that of the crowd that's here today at TA Week, we've got a great bisection of individuals that do health care recruiting. Are doctors answering LinkedIn messages? Chad: No. Brian Fink: No, they're not. Right? Are nurses on LinkedIn? No, they're on TikTok and Instagram. That's where you should go to find them. Alternatively, if you're looking for truck drivers and there is a group that's here that's from pilot centers and they market to them. Are they on LinkedIn? No. You've got to look at all these alternative resources and say, where is the best place for me to meet my candidate? Not for my candidate to meet me. Don't make the candidate come to you. Go to the candidate. Get engaged with them about their interests and speak to those. If they're active on TikTok, right, site command, tiktok.com, quotation marks "@gmail" neonatal nurse and look it up, and you'll find people that are passionate about saving babies. You're not gonna find that on LinkedIn. Chad: So are recruiters getting too lazy? Because they lean heavy on fucking LinkedIn, man. Brian Fink: I've argued that for a really long time. If you guys caught Michael Goldberg's session this morning, Michael talked about grit and resilience. I had a talk at SourceCon where I talked about curiosity, tenacity, where you have to go deep in the paint. I don't think, look, I'm gonna say something that pisses a lot of people off. I know there are a lot of recruiters that are outta work right now. We're outta work for a reason. I say we as a community is that we're out because we have a low bar to entry. People are using that low bar and they're activating LinkedIn, they now have messaging sequencing on LinkedIn. They're not doing the heavy lifting, they're not doing the pre-research. They're not going the distance to understand the business, the hiring manager, the need. They're not asking the five Y's. Joel: And what's gonna change that is, so let me give you my historical thesis here. Brian Fink: Go for it. Joel: In the mid-2000s there was a group of you, Shelley, Levy, that knew bullion strings, knew all the search engines, knew how to get the needle in the haystack because of what was in between their ears. A bevy of services launched to take out sort of the brain power into searching these profiles. Now that LinkedIn has inevitably become sort of the one stop shop, they've taken much of the competition out of the equation that the lazy recruiters, as you talk about, if they rely on LinkedIn, what's the breaking point before we go back to the future. And it's guys and gals like you that know how to really like get in the weeds on how to find people and not just leverage LinkedIn. Because I think there's gotta be a breaking point where we're just spending too much on LinkedIn to have lazy recruiters. We're gonna go to like real crackerjack recruiters, or do we still rely on LinkedIn? I guess I'm asking for your perspective on what's the breaking point to where we get off the Oxycontin. Brian Fink: Oxycontin. I don't know what the breaking point is. I look at all these different recruiters who find different ways to find candidates. Have you guys had Aaron Matthew on the show before? Chad: No. Joel: Nope. Brian Fink: Okay. Chad: Introduce us. Brian Fink: Yeah, I will be more than happy to. Aaron is at PayPal. Aaron's number one source of hire is Reddit. Chad: For the types of positions. Brian Fink: Well, she's doing executive search. Chad: Oh, okay. Brian Fink: So she's having conversations with people about what's important to them, she's finding their Reddit alias. She's connecting that to their email alias and she's driving that conversation. She's having a conversation like, she loves to talk about bad dad jokes to her candidates. Her and Goldberg have an ongoing battle about who has the worst bad dad jokes. Chad: Joel's gonna get into that one soon. Brian Fink: Okay. So you've got something to talk to Aaron about. But that's it, is making that connection. And I think that if recruiters are less transactional, which LinkedIn is a drug that helps them to be transactional, and they get more into the minutiae with their candidate, that they're gonna go deeper. Chad: Build relationships, people. Joel: My thoughts are you mentioned unemployed recruiters. My thesis is the recruiters that come back get employed as recruiters again, are gonna be like your friend Aaron who think outside the box who don't just log into LinkedIn for eight hours a day and can think outside of that. That's my own thesis. Would you agree or disagree? Brian Fink: I agree with your thesis. Joel: Okay. Chad: So what about the platforms though? Because now we have a bunch of platforms that are leaning heavily. They say that's not the only place that they go to actually source candidates. Yeah. But when they get cut off, what happens to them? You got some power search tools that are out there. Joel: They pivot. Chad: They do search, they perform search so much better than anything that LinkedIn could do. But if LinkedIn cuts them off, what happens? Brian Fink: Well, I think that's a question that... Joel: Ask HiringSolved what happens? They go out of business. Brian Fink: I was just about to say, I was thinking of HiringSolved, I was thinking about chronologically if you don't know what's next and you don't look around the corners, you're gonna be left with nothing to go on, right? I don't know per se what is going to happen to the hireEZs or to the SeekOuts or the RecruitBots of the world. I want to think that they're led by intelligent individuals like Anoop or Steven or Jeremy. And that they're aware of the changes to the profile, and that they're sitting down. I'd like to encourage them to actually work together to figure out. Joel: That's cute. Brian Fink: No, I mean... Let's do that, right? Chad: Yeah. Brian Fink: Let's have a conversation. Chad: Well, I mean, at this point they have a common enemy, so they should be fucking working together. Brian Fink: They have a common monopoly, right? And how do they overcome that monopoly? Chad: Yes. Brian Fink: It's a good question. I don't have an answer for that. Build a Google custom search engine. See how it works. See how it breaks, learn from it. Iterate, AB test. That's what I would do. Joel: Advice to a young recruiter would be what? Brian Fink: Stay out of the business. Get out of my way. Joel: And that is Brian Fink, everybody. Chad: Yes. Joel: He's the TA partner at McAfee. Brian, for our listeners who want to connect with you, where would you send them? Brian Fink: I would send them to the linkedin.com. If you type in Brian Fink, I'm the SEO to come up first. Or if you wanna get a little bit more personal, maybe you're gonna check me out @thebrianfink77 on Instagram. Chad: Oh. Brian Fink: Yeah. Chad: I like that. Brian Fink: Yeah. So we might go that route. Joel: Love it. Thank you Brian. That is another one in the can live from TA week at the Qualified Booth. Chad, we out. Chad: We out. Brian Fink: Are you listening? Whoa... Outro: Thank you for listening to what's it called? The Podcast, The Chad, The Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, Blue nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

It was another wild week in the world of work. The boys cover a wide range of topics. Here's a breakdown of some of the highlights: PageUp: U.S. tech investor Battery Ventures is looking to cash out of talent management platform PageUp, which it funded in 2018. Despite efforts to expand globally and through acquisitions, PageUp struggled to gain traction in the U.S. market. HireRight: Investment funds affiliated with General Atlantic and Stone Point Capital are acquiring background check solution HireRight for approximately $1.65 billion. The sale suggests a smart move to sell while the stock is high. Beamery: Beamery's CTO and co-founder Michael Patterson has exited the company, amid rumors of acquisition by Workday. However, Workday may wait to acquire Beamery at a lower price, as Beamery has faced layoffs and client loss. The Hatch: Australian startup The Hatch has raised approximately $4.6 million to create a job platform targeting Gen Z professionals, aiming to disrupt traditional job boards by using AI to match users with jobs based on their values and skills. In addition, Chad and Joel discuss various topics related to current events and news, including the National Labor Relations Board's disputes with Amazon, SpaceX, and Trader Joe's, LinkedIn's legal troubles, North Korean hackers using AI for phishing scams, and more. Join us for a lively discussion on labor rights, privacy, and corporate ethics! TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh. Yeah. Two guys who have never taken and will never take a cognitive test. What's up, kids? You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel person woman man Camera TV Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad sorry I'm late Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, LinkedIn feels violated a Gen Z job board hatches and page up hose down. Let's do this. What's up, man? How's the shoulder? How's the wing? How's the wing treating you? Chad: Had physical therapy for the first time this morning. All is well in the, you know, in the Sowash hood. I'm just getting used to not being able to use my dominant right arm. Number one. And sleeping is really the biggest bitch because I've gotta wear this thing. I can only sleep in one position. [laughter] Chad: And when you get into like, you know, six to eight hours, you know, you start to get sore when you can't move. So, I'm not sleeping a good eight hours. Joel: Is the one position on your back. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I've gotta wear my sling. Joel: To the back. To the back. Chad: Not the best. [laughter] Joel: So this... Chad: It works. Joel: So this is wild. So last, last week here in central Indiana, we got a little bit of snow. Chad: We did. Joel: We had the Allstar game. If you're an NBA fan. So it was kind of a busy week here. Chad: How much did you guys get? How much snow? We got about six inches. Joel: Yeah. I'm gonna say four to five. Yeah. Easily. So I go, I go to my local Kroger. I know that's your favorite store to get your products. And I'm pulling in and it's packed. And I'm thinking, oh, did I miss the apocalypse announcement? Did I mi... Like, we're gonna get a few inches of snow. This is not that bad. So I'm walking in. And there's this huge line of people, and at the end of the line is 50 Cent. 50 Cent... Chad: Oh my God. Joel: Was at my local Kroger signing bottles of... Chad: Was he on stage? Was he rapping? What was going on? Joel: No rapping. He was signing bottles of cognac. Apparently has launched a 50 Cent brand of cognac. So he was there signing bottles. Of course. It's a great trick to say, you have to buy the bottle. If I'm gonna sign it. These are probably a lot of people who hate cognac or have never had it. I personally am against the whole celebrity booze trend. I don't know how you feel about it. I know you love Ryan Reynolds. He's got a gin. Chad: Why are you against it? Joel: I just think it cheapens the whole history of the booze, man. Chad: You're turning more into a socialist day by day. Joel: Every liquor is rooted, is rooted in, you know, history. [laughter] Joel: And old people that made this stuff. And then some celebrity. It's not like 50 Cent has a distillery in his mansion, you know, brewing this stuff. He private labels it from whoever's making it. And then they try to sell it. I don't, I just, I don't buy it. If you do, that's all good. Chad: I'm not a cognac guy. Aviation gin, definitely have some of that downstairs. I mean, gin is gin. Give me a break. There's some really good gin. Joel: You and I could make some gin. Chad: Really good gin in... Joel: Chad and Cheese gin. [laughter] Chad: In Europe though. Really good gin. I think they're the storied pasts. Those are the ones who actually get more, they get more dollar value outta them. Take a look at like, some of the Snoop Dogg wines. I mean, they're going for like 14.99 or something like that. [chuckle] Joel: Martha Stewart. P Diddy. I just, I just, I can't get into it. Chad: Well, and again, it's interesting 'cause here in the US we productize the shit outta everything. Joel: Hey, I'm all for the abundance of American consumerism. I just don't like a celebrity, you know pouring in my drinks. All right. Enough of that talk. Let's get to shoutouts. My first one goes to our friends at Fama. Of course, you know, Fama is run by our friend Ben Mones. That's right. Ben Mones. So they have, if you don't know what they do for our listeners, they track Twitter, social media. So if your new hire is spouting off about Nazism or, you know, like racism, et cetera, they'll give you a heads up that, Hey, here's a red flag about this new candidate. Well, they just announced that they can now monitor TikTok videos, which I think is huge. If they can pull that off. Because I think that the Glassdoor write a three-paragraph review of the company that I work for is like, so... Chad: That shit's dead. That shit's dead. Joel: So old people shit. And... [laughter] Chad: It's Reader's Digest worthy. Joel: Video is how people are, are doing it. They're not doing it anonymously. They don't give a shit. Like they're gonna, they're gonna talk shit about your company, their boss. And if I were recruit holdings, I would back up the truck to call Ben, write a check, and put this into Glassdoor. And Indeed, because the reviews that are going on those sites and text are going down. So they need to be able to track all this video stuff outside of the text world and put that on for employers to watch. So I think personally, this is a huge innovation at Fama, way beyond text on Twitter. That stuff's easy. This stuff is hard if they can pull it off. So big shout out to our friends at Fama. [applause] Chad: I think that's how you take some of these old crotchety background check companies and you make them worthwhile. Joel: That's another one. Yeah. Chad: You absorb a Fama and then you start to do those types of things. Yeah. I think Fama has a great exit opportunities all over the place. Joel: Yeah. Checker startling. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Well, my shoutout is more around a market watch. Let's just call it that. What are you streaming these days? Are you guys watching anything? Netflix, anything like that? Joel: Sure. Better Call Saul is a big one. Streaming The Masters of the Skies or the Air? It's on Apple. It's World War II B17s flying. Yeah. The whole campaign there. For sure. Yeah. Streaming all the time. I'm mad that I can't get Six Nations easily. And we got some big matches coming up in rugby that our friend Adam has... [laughter] Joel: I can't get, I gotta get Peacock or Paramount or some shit. Like it's too much. It's too much. So like... Chad: It's too much. It is just too much. Joel: Back to your point of what am I streaming? Chad: So, I mean, we, we actually just finished up on Brothers Sun on Netflix, which is great. So check that out. But what I wanted to be able to fade into here is the streaming market. And Walmart acquires these, the smart TV company, Vizio for $2.3 billion. So I haven't personally been in a Walmart for about two to three years. Might even be four. I do remember that Vizios were very prominence in the TV section, and I thought Walmart owned them already. But the question is, how does Walmart's purchase possibly outflank the Apple TVs, Amazon, Fire Roku, and Chromecast? I mean, you take a page out of Apple's playbook, you become the OS you know, the operating system, the rails to how people actually stream. And if you've bought a TV over the past few years, you've probably purchased a smart TV, which is connected to the WiFi, has preloaded apps in an app store which means I don't need to purchase a separate Roku or Chromecast. Chad: I mean, that's really where where we're moving. Now, if you don't need to buy a streaming stick boxes or whatever the hell they come out with, will Walmart then charge a vig on purchases made through the Vizio TV? You in a movie through the Amazon app? Does Walmart get a cut? Very Apple-esque. So then there's the advertising network aspect of it, which is very large. So as the US market continues to consolidate and we have less and less choice of places to spend our dollar, as we've seen a lot of these organizations, Disney plus consolidation, pulling content off, HBO Max doing the exact same types of things. What happens when Walmart has a acquisition and a play like this in this space? I think it's pretty big. Joel: Yeah. That's pretty interesting. You know, the phone screen is that that's played, the iPad or tablet that's played? The TV and I guess maybe the car. I mean, the Internet of things really isn't happening. My refrigerator isn't a TV yet. So it is kind of open field to make a really big move. I think that Amazon recently allows you to have multiple services. So it's like one login, and then you can get Access Hulu or Netflix or all the different ones you have. So they're trying to have like, be a platform for all the streaming services. So I could definitely see a day where you buy Visio TV you give it your username for all these streaming services, and you just turn on the TV and it's all there already logged in. And then, of course, you mentioned the shopping thing. Hey, you like, you know, you like Ted Lassos, Nike's or Nike's maybe bad. [laughter] Joel: Does Walmart sell Nike's? I have no idea. But they could have something where like, Hey if you like, so and so's outfit, you know, we have it on sale, click here. And then you got your credit card in there. Chad: Then they deliver it to you. [laughter] Joel: Deliver it to you, in an Amazon van. I don't know. But that's, yeah. That's pretty interesting. Chad: A Walmart van. Joel: Good for Mo, because no one's buying the Walmart phone. I can tell you that. No one's buying. Chad: No. It and I mean, they're just trying to, they're trying to outflank each other. And while that's happening, a lot of these smaller, very innovative companies are, are getting either acquired or crushed. And again, that's what I'm talking about. Our choices here in the US are going down, down, down. These big companies are buying all of those brands. And either putting them under their umbrella or they're just absorbing them entirely. So this is definitely a space to watch. I think. Joel: Chad's new favorite store. Oops. Winning Walmart. Well, no word if only fans is gonna be on these Walmart TVs of the future, Chad, but probably you're probably familiar with Alex Navalny in Russia. Putin's... Chad: Rest in peace. Yes. Joel: Putin's doghouse for sure is one dog, lighter this week, however, there's a new Public enemy, number one in Russia. Her name is Lolita Bog Nova. Chad: Is that her real name? Joel: That's a horrible, sexy name if that is her sexy name. [laughter] Joel: She is an OnlyFans model. And two years ago she posted some pics in front of Saint Basil's Cathedral Church, which is one of the real popular, like, has those Russian top, you know, little bubble things. That you've seen online. Anyway, she... Chad: Cool architecture. Joel: Posted topless, put these things online. And two years, two, three years later, Putin is fit to be tied. Apparently, she is Public Enemy number one. She's hiding out in the US somewhere. Unlike Navalny. I don't think she's gonna go back to Russia and Face the Gulag. Uh, but, uh, for now, she's safe and happy in the us but she better watch out 'cause Putin has a way of finding you and making you pay. No word on whether or not he's subscribed to her OnlyFans channel. But I wouldn't be too surprised. Chad: Probably mad that he didn't get free access and, or this is literally just something that she made up so that she can get a story out there, which is, you know... Joel: They have pictures online, it's pixeled out for the kid-friendly websites that... Chad: I'm not saying that the pictures don't exist. [laughter] Chad: I don't say that the pictures don't exist. I'm just saying the story around the pictures. I don't know. But you know what Lolita can do? She can enjoy free stuff of Chad and Cheese. She can go to chadcheese.com/free where she could possibly have, oh, I don't know, craft beer delivered to her front door from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. Whiskey. That's two bottles of whiskey from Joel and myself, from Text Colonel, our friends over there, the AI matching machines. T-shirts from who? Who, who, Joel. Joel: We, we have a new T-shirt sponsor. Chad. We're very excited. They almost tripped over themselves to sign up... [laughter] Joel: To be the sponsor of let's be honest. Chad: I'm always there. Joel: Let's be honest. The industry's most popular t-shirt, the most popular, comfortable, cool t-shirt. Sexy is from the Chad and Cheese podcast. So we have a new design in process. We're hoping to have these for a futures conference coming up soon. But our friends, ERIN, to learn more about these guys, they do, employee referrals, just go to ERIN, that's erinapp.com and we're real excited to have them on board. Is this year's T-shirt sponsor? Chad: Yep. New designs. Looking good. Joel: Almost as happy as the birthday. The birthday folks. [laughter] SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know. I can feel it. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: That's right. Chad, I don't know if you mentioned it or if you've heard, but Plum, the folks at Plum are sponsoring a bottle of rum for one lucky winner who's celebrating. Chad: Oh, I've a birthday. I've heard. Joel: Celebrating another trip around the sun are Chad and she's listeners, Ryan Fillman. Maria and Nia. Ross Granger, Sarah Mara, Rebecca Horn, Mike Wiston, and your homeboy. Ethan Bloomfield are all celebrating. Another trip around the sun. Happy birthday everybody. Chad: Excellent. Well, and hopefully we can see some of those people when we're doing Guess what, events, kids events. That's right. We're gonna be at Transform March 11th through 14th, where we're gonna be at The Win in Vegas. Over 3000 attendees. A hundred plus investors, hundreds of startups. Shit tons of speakers. And it's gonna be a good time. We're going to give away five free tickets. Five free tickets, winnings. That's right. Just go to Chadcheese.com. In the header you'll see, just click on win free tickets. I tried to make it easy for you. Win free tickets. What you're gonna do is you're gonna register for free stuff. That's right. All the stuff we talked about before. The possibility of winning free beer, whiskey, t-shirts, maybe even on your birthday, getting run from Plum. Also, you might get an opportunity to win a free ticket into Transform. So check that out. Then play the Ki Boo. Oh yeah. [laughter] Chad: You know what that means, right? That means we are going to Amsterdam. That's right. When we dance. [laughter] Chad: We're gonna, we're gonna hop on a plane to Amsterdam. That was the official ere recruitment Congress KBU playlist or at least the start of the KBU playlist. March 19th. It's the ERE Recruitment Congress where the knowledge will be flowing, the beer will be flowing and hopefully leaving brings enough beer for everybody because I'm gonna tell you right now, we're gonna get ours. Okay. Uh, it's gonna be a full day in Amsterdam dedicated to filling your brain with all the good stuff from this industry, uh, all around the AI shift and recruitment and technology. Uh, and we also have a special discount that you can find. Listen up kids chadcheese.com. Click on the events link in the upper right-hand corner, or just go to chadcheese.com/events. We had to wrestle that discount code away from leaving. [laughter] Joel: We made him drink a six-pack of Heineken or threaten him with a six-pack of Heineken. [laughter] Joel: Or else we were gonna, we're gonna really go. [laughter] Joel: Can't wait to get back to Europe. Alright, well, before we get to some news, Chad, we've got layoff news. Oy, oy, oy. All right. The year of Efficiency marches on Chad, Nike. Nike. CEO John Donahoe took responsibility for the company's recent underperformance and announced layoffs of more than 1500 employees. To "Reignite growth" the decision reflects broader trends of companies, including Google and meta-cutting staff to enhance efficiency and address changing consumer behaviors. The stock was down on the news. Chad, your take. Chad: So I ultimately hold myself and my leadership accountable. Said John Donahoe from the CEO of of Nike. How did you hold yourself responsible? SFX: You lying lies lies. Chad: Yahoo. Finance reports. John has a market capitalization of $153 billion with the B Kids. A total annual CEO comp was reported at 33 million for last year, the year 2023. That's an increase of 14% over the year before a failure receives 14%. It took wage earners in the US 40-plus years just to hit that mark in wage increases. Took 40 years. This motherfucker did it while he was failing in one year. ZipRecruiter reports the median income of Nike employees is 56,000, which means the CEO, good old John, the failure, is paid nearly 600 times that of a Nike commoner. So that doesn't include the comp for the rest of the failed Nike leadership team. So blowing these employees off will not reignite growth. Firing yourself would provide an opportunity to get a leader in the seat who's not a pure fucking failure. [laughter] Chad: Fire two others from the leadership team and allow all of those 1500 workers to keep their damn jobs. This is the problem with the whole structure that we're in. These motherfuckers are getting paid 600 times. Some even more than the people who are actually doing the work. They look at themselves and say, "Yeah. No. I failed on this one, but I'm going to gonna cut 1500 heads." No. Fuck you. You should be out the door. This is not the way that business should work. Joel: How the hell does... How the hell is Nike not one of the most profitable companies in the wor... All I see is fucking Nike's on people from the kids to the old folks to me. Anyway, that's an aside. What I found interesting was that the stock didn't move much. I assumed with Meta doing what it did in Google, I thought firing some people would really ignite the stock. Chad: You're talking tech versus material goods. Joel: Yeah. So, so the question is, is tech the only segment that can say year of efficiency and actually get rewarded for it on Wall Street? I guess time will tell, but that surprised me. I thought there would be a domino effect of companies talking about efficiency and layoffs, and that's... And that Wall Street would go nuts unless every penny in Wall Street is going to NVIDIA, which would not surprise me at the moment... [laughter] Joel: This was kind of shocking. Yeah. NVIDIA's like Barbie for dudes. It's just... It's like... Chad: Oh, dude. Don't... I'm going to gonna tell you, and again, this is the... This is not me, this is all in my opinion. I have put some cash. Actually, Julie, we've put some cash into some NVIDIA over the last months. I mean, just watching what's happening and you know they are actually gauging demand. They know what demand is, and they're not producing to demand. They are not. They never have and they never will. Joel: We have some hidden audio from the headquarters at NVIDIA. SFX: SFX. Joel: Things are good at NVIDIA, to say the least. Chad: Super yachts and hoes. Yeah. SFX: SFX. Joel: All right, Chad. Here's a roundup of some interesting news that our listeners might enjoy. Financial review is reporting US Tech investor Battery Ventures is ready to cash out of talent management platform, PageUp, after writing a check in 2018 for an undisclosed amount. Launched way back in the 90s, PageUp is headquartered in Melbourne, but the service... But they service 190 countries. Want some more fire of-sale goodness, background check solution, HireRight is being acquired by investment funds affiliated with General Atlantic and Stone Point Capital for approximately $1.65 billion. The transaction is expected to close later this year, but wait, Chad. There's more. Chad: Oh God. Joel: Sources, particularly sources that you are connected with are telling us that Beamery, CTO, and Co-founder Michael Paterson are out and that they're primed to be acquired by Workday. Chad, everything must go. What are your thoughts? [chuckle] Chad: Let's take this one by one. PageUp. So, how do you say fire sale without saying fire sale? I think they did a really good... They had a good example there right now from the BV funding press release back in 2018. "PageUp will use some of the new funding to increase its already significant focus on product research and development. In addition, PageUp plans to continue its global expansion and may seek acquisitions to offer more products to more customers in the complimentary markets." So, we did see some acquisitions clinch, eArcu, and Path Motion. Those really didn't move the dial much. I know that they were trying to get into some of those markets. The UK markets mainly. Path Motion was a French company. It's interesting that these organizations like PageUp only took $10 million prior to this undisclosed major funding events. Why did they do that? Right? They've been around for a very long time. Were they looking to try to gain explosive growth? They might have. The problem is, if you remember, I know we talked about this, PageUp was trying to target the US. Right? An Australian company trying to target the US. Not easy. Joel: Only Outback Steakhouse has accomplished such a feat. Chad: Yeah. If you've got a blooming onion, you might be good. If you don't, you're probably fucked. They went to the UK and they did some acquisitions in the UK, which helped them, I think, from a portfolio standpoint, but it didn't really launch them like I think they thought they would be in Europe. They really had no chance in the US unless they bought something. So this doesn't surprise me, and we've been talking about this for months now. We're going to see a lot of this happening. Joel: Yeah. If Crocodile Dundee is still around, he's kicking somebody in the ass because this was a lot... Old company in internet terms. It was a company that had three, 400 employees. The average tenure is 3.7 years, which is a long time in our world. So by all accounts, you had a long-term company that had happy employees. I hear everyone's happy in Australia, but maybe that's an outlier. So 2018, we had a lot of money going into the ATS space. ICIMS was getting money, Greenhouse, SmartRecruiters, like you can go back in our archives and this was a time when a lot of money was going into these platforms. PageUp clearly said, "Oh shit. If we're going to compete, we gotta go get some money. Call up Battery Ventures in the US. Everyone... The US has the money. So, let's get some cash." Joel: This is 2018. 2024, if my math is correct, that puts us into year seven of this relationship. And clearly, things aren't going the way that Battery Ventures had hoped that they would. Queue the SmartRecruiters news from last week of a failed deal that didn't go go through. We'll talk about some other things as well. I'm sure you'll talk about Beamery. And so anyway, we you have an environment where a lot of money went in, people took that money six, seven years, henceforth, it didn't turn out. All these venture capitalists want their cash, and now it's time to pay the piper. PageUp ran out of time, they made a stupid decision when everyone was making stupid decisions and now it's time to say, either acquisition or maybe private equity comes in and chops it up. All that career builder style. But by all accounts, this was a kind of cool, happy, long-term company and bye-bye. Will it be a boomerang? I doubt it. PageUp. Chad: No. I don't think it would. Joel: Page down PageDown more like it. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? SFX: SFX. Chad: HireRight. So they raised 422.2 million. A little bit more than PageUp did. Jesus. Their net worth to date is about 960 million as of... That was February 20th. So this is the highest the stock has been in the last two years. So it's probably smart they sell as soon as humanly possible. With sales seems smart. But what about the buy in this case? What do you think? Was this a smart buy? Joel: I don't know enough about it to say if it was smart or not. I've been on record many times saying that the background check industry sucks. Chad: It's boring. I've... Yeah. Joel: It's awful. I mean, HireRight ball accounts is the number two player. Stocks hit a low about a year ago. Sterling for sure has been on an upswing since then. I think the year of efficiency, they've been very efficient in what they've done. The market cap on HireRight is $950 million. So they paid one and a half or so for that company. So, I mean, it's a good company. It's got customers that aren't leaving. Look, when you... It's like an ATS. When you select a background check provider, you stick with that provider. 'Cause it's not like there's much difference in any of them. So they have a client base that's probably not going anywhere, you're not going to gonna get a 10x return on this. So take it private, get out from under the Wall Street criticism, and it's probably a fine deal for a private equity or company that bought this deal. But the background check business sucks. I mean, they're going to gonna chop this thing up. They're going to gonna fire people. They're going to milk as much profit out of this as possible. So if you work at HireRight man, woo. Time to update that LinkedIn profile for sure. Chad: Not going to gonna be fun, kids. It's not going to gonna be fun and not... Another place where it's not going to gonna be fun. Where there is smoke, there is fire. And when there is fire, in this case, there is fire. What do I mean by that? Beamery CTO/co-founder, Michael Paterson, exited stage left earlier this year. Prior to that, in January of last year, 2023, Beamery laid off 11% and then ended the year with a 25% layoff in November. My sources say Beamery is doing their damnedest to get acquired by Workday. That's the rumor. So if the rumor is true, I would expect Workday to wait Beamery out to get more of a fire sale price. I do know that... I believe Workday does have money in there, but it's still... It's going to gonna be... It's pretty much paying yourself. So try to get that price down. And I would strongly suggest, this is just my personal opinion. Strongly suggest that any company dropping an RFP anytime soon should not include PageUp or Beamery. Okay? That's just my opinion. But turbulent vendors are not where... I would not personally spend my budget kids. Okay? And this is just end from an anonymous source out of Scotland. [chuckle] Chad: Anonymous. Quote... SFX: SFX. Chad: "Beamery was never more than Avature with a shinier pitch deck." SFX: SFX. Joel: Dude, I'm on record as Beamery is a shit show. You talked about the money that came in. Like from... It's... Yeah. I got nothing but just like... SFX: SFX. Joel: How bad the situation is. So Workday is interesting. I don't that... You're right. I think they were in on the series C. We don't know exactly how much publicly that they put in. But these were big rounds that Beamery was... Beamery was a unicorn. It ain't anymore, that's for sure [chuckle] Chad: No. Joel: Chance. So that means, most of the employees stock options are for shit. This company, from what I understand, is bleeding. Clients can't get new clients. It's just a bad scene. If Workday could buy it on the cheap, the TJ Clearance sale rack and save face... [laughter] Joel: And there may be a situation where all the other investors are like, "Come on Workday, do us a solid. Exit these guys so we can, with our dignity, get out as well." But if Workday comes in, the Beamery brand is done, everyone that works there is probably done until they segment into all the clients that are Beamery into Workday. If they're not already, they'll take some of the tech, I'm assuming. But this has all the writings of dead on arrival for Beamery. And it's just bad news. Couple other thoughts on the background check thing. Sorry. We kind of jumped around there, but... Chad: Circle. Circle. Go ahead. Joel: Checker is interesting. Checker took a ton of money. At one point in, 2019, they were valued at $4.6 billion. Nowhere near the market share of like Sterling or HireRight. And HireRight just sold for a billion and a half. So think about... Talk about bad situations. Checker is a bad situation in terms of stock options. I mean, there's no way that Checker is in that $4.6 billion universe. And by the way, Sterling, who's the biggest 800-pound gorilla in the background check business is now at a $2.5 billion market cap. So, it's not unrealistic to think that Checker has gone from four plus billion to Yeah, well under a billion in valuation. So talk about bad situations. I wanted to highlight that as well. I think Checker's in a bad spot for sure. Chad: Whew. Well, let's get into some small startups as opposed to these unicorns. These dying unicorns. Joel: Let's move away from this madness. SFX: SFX. Joel: Someone may have been bitten by a venomous insect in Australia. Australia's Hatch has raised roughly $4.6 million US dollars. Self-described as "SEEK." If you don't know what seek is, American listeners, it's sort of the equivalent of Monster in Australia anyway. SEEK for Gen Z. That's right. The platform uses AI to match Gen Z professionals with jobs based on their values and skills aiming to disrupt traditional job boards. Of course, they are. Chad, what are your thoughts on yet another job board? Chad: This is very interesting. Not just the job board aspect of it, but Australia's population is smaller than California or Canada. So around 26 million. And then they're taking that size down dramatically by targeting Gen Z, which makes their market... Their user market roughly 4.7 million at best, right? SFX: SFX. Chad: So I love me a focused company, but here's where they're going to be spending that money. Number one, product enhancements, including AI matching technology. Never heard that before. Have you? User growth, geographic growth expanding nationwide over two-year period before becoming a global platform. They're not even national yet. And then growing the Hatch team with ML and AI. So in Australia, competitors are SEEK, Indeed, and the National Workforce Australia site, right? So now, your competition are big names, although they're not excessive, and they're not going to gonna create an entirely new user experience for all job seekers across Australia instead of just target Gen Z. Chad: So my personal opinion, Hatch doesn't understand the basic math as they're too narrowly focused on a small 4.7 million cohort of possible Gen Zs. Could the same strategy fly in the US where Gen Z represents 68.6 million people in our population over twice that the entire population of Australia? Yes. It's a numbers game, kids. I don't think these guys understand numbers. My advice to them, find an MVP, sell the MVP in markets that you've already penetrated, drive revenue. That's the big key. This is the time for slow and smart growth. Plus, everybody needs a damn job. So yes. You can have those areas on the site for Gen Z, but go general. You don't have a large enough population to play this incredibly super niche game. I like the idea, but from a mass standpoint, it doesn't work. SFX: SFX. Joel: I'm glad you took it into the cerebral realm of math 'cause I'm going to gonna take it somewhere else. Seriously. Somebody smoking some poisonous frog juju. Look, history is riddled with targeting younger consumers with a cooler hip product that isn't your father's and your mother's. It works. It works. [chuckle] Chad: This isn't your mother's job board. Joel: When it works, it works. Okay? Ford released the Mustang. It's like, this ain't your daddy Studebaker. It's not the Model T. This is the car for the new generation. That works. It usually does not. I'll bring up the Cola Wars. You might remember Virgin Cola, you might remember Jolt Cola from the 80s. You probably remember... Chad: God. That was horrible. Joel: Pepsi's the choice of a new generation. Okay? All the cool kids are drinking Pepsi, right? It's all... Hopefully, it'll... It's supposed to make you look cool, make you more accessible to sexual partners like... [laughter] Joel: Sometimes it works. It doesn't. Now to think that it's going to work in the job search arena, give me a break, man. I mean, it's not your daddy's job board. That just doesn't really play to anybody. And these guys are putting like holistic job board, full self connect... They're using words that are so snowflakey. Sorry to try to... Sorry to get anti-woke on you, but it's so snowflakey. It's just, it's so bad. It's like Handshake and Polywork saying, "We're not LinkedIn, we're for the cool kids. We're the cool LinkedIn." So these are going to gonna be the cool job board, right? We're not SEEK, we're not those old fogies that listen to NXS albums from the 80s, right? I just... I think it's... You know I'm not big on job boards anyway. To launch a job board and say we're not your daddy's job board, basically, I think is a failed venture. It reminds me a lot of ADA. You remember ADA from about a year ago? You... Chad: Yahoo literally just got bought. Joel: Okay. Paul Forster invested in that and it was sort of the same thing. Like, we're different than Indeed, or we're different than these guys. What happened to Ada? They kind of like snuck away... Chad: The best thing ADA did was their advertising. That was the best thing they did. [chuckle] Joel: Which I don't even remember. It was so good I don't even know what the hell it is. [chuckle] Joel: So they kind sold in the dead of night. There wasn't even a press release, I don't think. It's like somebody found out about from some public announcement that they had been acquired by somebody. So, that's where... Chad: Yeah. UK. Joel: Hatch is going. Hatch needs to go back in the egg, go back in the uterus, and go home. 'Cause this is just not going to gonna work out well. Chad: You've been hatched. Joel: I love Australia, I love the spirit and it... The thought behind this, but yeah. This is... This is like... SFX: SFX. Joel: Beamery or any of the other crash lands that we've talked about. Oh my God. I'm... Chad: I need a break. Joel: I'm worked up. Chad, let's take a quick break. SFX: SFX. Joel: I had to have a cold fosters to chill me out there. I need... [laughter] Joel: I needed some Alice Springs. Chad: A whole oil can by yourself. Joel: Alice Spring chicken to make me feel better about myself. Chad: The bloomin onion with some Alice Springs chicken. Joel: Oh. All right, Chad. Well, no show would be complete without talk of Elon, SpaceX, Tesla, or all of the above. Chad: Oh. That's fun. Joel: So in the news this week, Amazon, SpaceX, and Trader Joe's, one of these things is not like the other, are challenging the constitutionality of the National Labor Relations Board or what the kids call the NLRB in, and disputes related to workers' rights and organizing. Amazon argues the NLRB structure violates the separation of powers and denies due process, echoing similar claims by SpaceX and Trader Joe's. Chad, your thoughts on the latest from the NLRB attack? Chad: Whew. So the National Labor Relations Board is an independent federal agency with the power to safeguard employees rights to organize and to determine whether to have unions as their bargaining representative. The agency also acts to prevent and remedy unfair labor practices committed by private sector employees and employers and union. Unfair labor practices like, I don't know employees having to piss on Amazon warehouse garbage cans, unfair labor practices like allowing children to work on construction sites, slaughter houses, and eight to 10 hours jobs instead of going to school, I mean, Amazon alone has faced over 250 complaints alleging unlawful practices. Musk's SpaceX is under fire from the NLRB for retaliating, it's not a good thing to retaliate, against eight engineers who criticize Musk in a letter to the company executives. So Seth Goldstein, who's actually an attorney who represents both Amazon labor union and the labor group, Trader Joe's United, Stated quote, since they can't defeat successful union organizers, they now want to just destroy the whole process. Goldstein also said that pending cases could emboldened other employers, to refuse to bargain with unions on the behalf of the courts. We're in an age of chaos right now, these companies are looking to try to break the system, they want this to go up to the Supreme Court in the hopes that they do the Roe versus Wade dance, and they just, they kill this too. SFX: Another one. Joel: Yeah. You took the words out of my mouth. For the most part, I think there's blood in the water and the sharks are circling, people see this as an opportunity to take a conservative leaning, heavily leaning Supreme Court and basically up turn a lot of things that have been the law of the land in this case, since the '30s and destroy it, and you mentioned Roe vs Wade affirmative action which... A couple of interviews we did this week, I don't think we appreciate the impact that it's had on companies demeanors in terms of DEI. So now it's like if we can overturn Roe in affirmative action, this should be a piece of cake. So let's get the Supreme Court one on this, let's hear this case in the Supreme Court, which is something that would have been unbelievable 10 years ago, five years ago, now is reality like this organization that you so eloquently put in terms of protecting workers that don't have unions to sort of protect them, now that could be gone. Chad: And then also, I didn't mention this, but they're also looking for... I think Musk was talking about or Trader Joe's looking for a jury trial, fuck you. All you're trying to do is extend out how long this happens, and they know that the NLRB, like any organization within the government, only has so many individuals, so they can only take on so many the cases, so if they can extend out to the amount of time those individuals are taking then they cannot enforce the law, right, so they're literally just trying to fuck the system. Joel: Tell this Trader Joe's getting involved in this mix. That shocked me. Trader Joe's, the good folks at Trader Joe's, come on, man, that's a bummer, man. Chad: Now they're being aligned with Elon Musk and Amazon. Joel: That's a party, man. That's a party. All right, let's get on to LinkedIn. Chad: Yes. Joel: Well, they've had a pretty rough month Chad, I know you're sad about that. Anyway, North Korean hackers are using AI tools like chatGPT to conduct phishing scams on LinkedIn aiming to fund their nuclear weapons program, but wait Chad there's more. A new class action lawsuit against LinkedIn alleges the company unlawfully tracked its members activities on the California DMV website to obtain personal disability information, which was then used for undisclosed purposes. The plaintiff seeks to represent a California class and claims LinkedIn violated privacy laws, demanding damages and a jury trial. So Chad, from the DMZ to the DMV. What are your thoughts on LinkedIn? No, good bummer of a month. Chad: This is about as ballsy as it gets. I mean, not only are we gonna big brother the fuck out of you, but we're gonna thumb our nose at the government while we're doing it, where LinkedIn fucked up as they did this in California if this happened in Utah or Indiana or any of the other red states, they wouldn't give a shit. They wouldn't care about it. It would go off. It wouldn't matter. Right. Whatever, they were making money, right? They add to this advertising thing, we got a GDP. It's all about GDP. California is an entirely different animal. Joel: It's the Europe of America. Chad: Yeah, the only one that keeps most of us straight, so yeah, it's interesting, it will be interesting to see how this progresses and then who gets smacked around for this. LinkedIn again, really focusing heavy on trying to generate revenue apparently they went too far. I mean, apparently, they went too far. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Chad: When nobody's watching. Joel: So let's touch on this North Korea thing. This sounds like a Seth Rogen comedy. So North Korea is utilizing AI tools to look like recruiters to contact people on LinkedIn that I don't know, have nuclear physicist and whatever else, in their title, these are not dummies or unemployed like rubes, and they're chatting them up almost like that whole, what do they call? Like pig slaughtering or whatever, when you get a random text saying like, Hey, are we still doing lunch? And then six months of chatting with this person, they're like, it's on your crypto. That's what this sounds like, that they're chatting up as a recruiter, getting you to be friends, and then I don't know, they're asking your nuclear secrets or something, or trying to hire you to North, I don't know how, that's how this isn't working because people are realizing like, "Okay, the English is a little bit off, something doesn't quite seem right here," but how far do we have to go until they do sound like they're credible, till video comes into it until actual voices come in. So this to me is a preliminary fear factor element that we should be aware of that North Koreans were trying to recruit with AI nuclear physicist to build bombs and missiles and all kinds of shit. Joel: So that's kind of scary. It's a little bit of off the beaten path in terms of like legitimacy, but it is scary. It's a little bit weird like. Watch out there kids. And by the way, we had a call with the Job Board Doctor, and we talked about threats to the industry. To me the biggest to the Job Board, whatever industry is, the call is from inside the house, whether it's... We don't do a good enough job of protecting our users, whether people are getting phished and scammed and our data is getting breached on a regular basis, to me that's the biggest threats, is they're gonna shoot themselves in the foot, And LinkedIn is walking a tight wire with stuff like this to really put itself in jeopardy. If I were LinkedIn, man, or any big tech company, this is a real threat. GDPR needs to happen in California, which it kinda has already. Chad: In the US. Joel: In the US. Chad: In the entire US. When the European Union is ahead of us, and they're so far ahead of us on all this stuff, 'cause they actually give a shit. And that's the problem that we're having, we care more about the profits that are being made other than the people who are getting fucked. Joel: And worse on that Chad, the Chinese are way ahead of us as well. Let's take a quick break. Joel: All right, Chad, as is normally our sin for the recording the show during lunchtime, let's talk about some food, Starbucks has introduced a braised pork flavored latte, let me say that again, a braised pork flavored latte in China to celebrate the Lunar New Year, priced at almost $10 USD. Reviews are mixed, with some finding it surprisingly delicious and others deeming it, "disgusting." Well, more food and beverage news, Chad, Gabriela Rodriguez, a cleaner at a top London law firm was fired after eating a leftover tuna sandwich valued about to two quid, as they say in England, from a meeting room. Devonshires Solicitors, the law firm, reportedly did not make a formal complaint, but her employer Total Clean gave her the axe anyway for stealing, Chad. UVW, a union representing migrant workers is taking legal action over claims of unfair dismissal and race discrimination. It's enough to give you indigestion Chad, am I right? What are your thoughts on our food block of stories? Chad: Salty sweet coffee? I'm gonna go ahead and eject out of that one right out of the gate, and again, there are many different tastes all over the world, right, this one just ain't for me. The sandwich thing, if she found the sandwich after hours like it was just laying there, in a conference room... Joel: For trash. Chad: Wasn't in the fridge. Joel: It was prepped for trash. I didn't have barb on it. Chad: Yeah, even if it did have barb on it. It was in a conference room. So big fucking deal. To me, again, retaliating against employees over stupid shit like this, makes no sense whatsoever, and for an... I understand a lot of businesses, they're like, well, we don't wanna lose the business, well, you also have to say, "Look, anything that you don't want us to throw away or eat or drink, get out of the fucking way." It makes no sense whatsoever. And then back to the porky coffee. Again, I don't get it. I might have Julie go get one, and then we'll see. Joel: Clearly Chad your palette is just totally wrong on this one, coffee and bacon, sign me up my friend. We already have it in the form of eggs and bacon with coffee, we're just taking a step out and throwing the bacon in the coffee. I mean, look, it's like a Bloody Mary for a new generation, instead of tomato juice and everything else, we're taking coffee and throwing everything into that. Chad: We're gonna call it the hatch. Joel: Breakfast in a cup is what this is. On-the-go breakfast, bacon in your coffee. You know what isn't better without coffee or without bacon Chad? Chad: What's that? Joel: Nothing. Everything is better with bacon. Everything is better with bacon. All right, now, let's get to our friend... Chad: Almost got a heart attack. Yeah. Joel: Let's get to our friend Gabriella, by the way, I had my physical last week and I'm good to go, man, another year of debauchery and overservice for me, my friend. So let's get to Gabriela, she's a single mother from Ecuador, she had been an employee for two years prior, so she wasn't like "Your first week on the job, get the hell out of here." This was done right around the holidays, and like I said, the sandwich was prepped for the trash, it wasn't like she stole it out of the fridge, or it was nice and hot in the microwave, it was trash. Seriously, these fuckers at Total Clean should have to eat a shit sandwich, there's no bacon on the shit sandwich Chad because it might actually be edible if you put bacon on it, my friend, it might actually be good with bacon on it, free Gabriella, I say, free Gabriella. We out. Outro: Look at you, you made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Jay's podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end, either way, there is no doubt you wish you had that time back, a valuable time you could have used to buy in a nutritious meal and Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty latinas and buck fights on TikTok. No, you hang out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful trainwreck, you can't look away and like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either.

Live from TA Week at the Qualifi booth, the boys sit down with Carrie Corcoran, a leading expert in employment branding and recruitment marketing. With her extensive experience in the industry and her passion for helping businesses create inclusive and diverse work environments, Carrie is a force to be reckoned with. In this episode, we dive deep into the world of employer branding and discuss its importance in attracting top talent. Carrie shares her insights on how companies can leverage technology to improve the candidate experience and create a positive employer brand. As the founder of Carrie Cares Employment Brand Consulting, Carrie has helped numerous businesses develop and implement effective strategies to improve their employer brand and recruitment efforts. She is also a strong advocate for the over 50 workforce, believing that they have a wealth of knowledge and experience to offer companies. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. More The Chad & Cheese Video Podcast Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel Cheesman: Oh yeah. What's up everybody? It is Taylor Swift's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always the Patrick to my SpongeBob Chad Sowash is in the house. We are here live... Chad Sowash: I love Patrick. Joel Cheesman: At TA week from the Qualified Booth and I am just happy to welcome Carrie Corcoran to the show. She is founder of Carrie Care's Employment Brand Consulting. What a welcoming employment branding kind of business name. I like that. Chad Sowash: It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy already. Carrie Corcoran: It does. So you know, I had to incorporate the care in my logo because I manage with heart and humor. Chad Sowash: 'cause Carrie gives a shit was taken. I... What I... Right? Joel Cheesman: Carriegivesashit.com. Chad Sowash: That was taken. Joel Cheesman: Was taken. Carrie Corcoran: Yes, that was taken. I did look for that. Joel Cheesman: Most of our listeners won't know you. Give us a Twitter bio about you as the person. Then we'll dig into the business stuff. Carrie Corcoran: Okay. I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, living on Tulsa time with my husband Sean and my, and our French Bulldog Cosmopolitan girl. Chad Sowash: Cosmopolitan, what? Joel Cheesman: Is it Cosmo for short? Carrie Corcoran: Cosmo for short. Joel Cheesman: There you go. Chad Sowash: Okay. I Like it. Joel Cheesman: Cosmopolitan girl. Okay. Chad Sowash: I'm a dog guy so I love me some Cosmopolitan Girl. Joel Cheesman: Peepers need some Cosmo time at some point. Can we schedule a play date in Tulsa one of these days? Carrie Corcoran: Absolutely. She will probably ignore any dog that comes in front of her, but you can try. Chad Sowash: I don't think Peepers has the ticker for that anymore, so you should probably pull back from that. Joel Cheesman: He does not. Carrie Corcoran: I don't think Cosmo does either. Joel Cheesman: Well maybe it'll work out. So what's the state of employment branding as maybe a better... Carrie Corcoran: Ooh, that's a loaded question. I think that too many companies do not appreciate the value of what employer brand can bring and what it can do for their company. I mean, when done right it aids in retention. It also aids in attraction and it can also aid in a company's bottom line. So when you have those three things that you do well, you're gonna be more successful and you're gonna have hopefully happier people. Happier, happier employees. And so many executives are ignoring it right now. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And they're cutting employer brand people left and right and recruitment marketing. Chad Sowash: Why are they ignoring it? You said that last, that number three bullet that I hardly ever hear from talent acquisition professionals. So why are they not focusing on their brand? Carrie Corcoran: So I think it could be a couple of different reasons. Potentially. Perhaps talent acquisition doesn't own the employer brand. And marketing is running the employer brand and talent acquisition as a stakeholder, which has many challenges in and of itself. And you know, it can sit in different areas, but from my experience, it's always worked best under talent acquisition. Chad Sowash: Uh-huh. Carrie Corcoran: And honestly, they may not have the right people trying to build their employer brand. They may not be strategic enough, they may not have the right experience. And you have to continually educate people across the company what employer brand is and why they should give a shit. Chad Sowash: Well you said bottom line though and we hardly ever hear... Joel Cheesman: Show me the money. Chad Sowash: People in TA because the CEOs, the entire c-suite, the, the board, they care about the bottom line, but we don't talk about that. Carrie Corcoran: Correct. Chad Sowash: We talk about all the warm and fuzzy and fluffy stuff and, and maybe even, you know, time to hire and those things that they don't care about. Carrie Corcoran: It's true. It's true. Chad Sowash: Because we're not tying it to bottom line. That was your third bullet. That to me stands out. So what do you do to be able to help your clients, just companies all over to better understand that we have to tie to that bottom line? How do, how do you do that? Carrie Corcoran: That's a a great question. Um, I haven't quite figured all of that out yet. Chad Sowash: It's not easy. I mean. Carrie Corcoran: I was just being honest. Um. Chad Sowash: From the outside looking in, it's not easy. Right? Carrie Corcoran: It's not easy. No. Chad Sowash: But being on the inside it's a little bit easier 'cause you have those connections. Carrie Corcoran: Right. Chad Sowash: You can chat with the CRO and the CMO and see what really matters to them. Carrie Corcoran: Exactly. Chad Sowash: And how they know that they're impacting the bottom line. Right. Carrie Corcoran: And the challenge too is how do you measure that it is giving you a better ROI? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Or that it, that it is effective besides just looking at the talent acquisition data, which as you know, metrics suck. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And you can't tie anything together because systems don't talk to one another. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And so it's, it's a very hard use case to prove and educating from the highest level down... Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Is of critical importance. And if you don't have buy-in from the top down, most likely it's not gonna be very successful. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Which is why they're getting cut. Carrie Corcoran: Right. Joel Cheesman: What's your read on the pandemic's impact on employer branding? My own perspective is when everyone's in the office, you can feel the culture. You look at it every day, you can feel it. When everyone's at home working, it becomes harder to justify why are we doing things that are culture based? Why are we building a brand when everyone's at home? What's your take on that? My, because I believe it's more important than ever because people are isolated at home. A solid brand is what's gonna keep them engaged more than just being an island at home. Your thoughts? Carrie Corcoran: So been remote working for probably the past four years and I, I do think that it's important to have face-to-face connection and interaction maybe once a quarter with your team. Or maybe it's a company all hands or something like that where you really bring everybody in together and they're able to network and build those relationships with one another. Chad Sowash: Uh-huh. Carrie Corcoran: I do think that this is where companies are not doing connecting well and building connection among their employees and building that community. And that's very hard to do virtually. And there aren't many companies that that do it well. But I don't think that you're less productive when you are working virtually. Chad Sowash: Right. Carrie Corcoran: And with all of these, you know, Fortune 500, 100 bringing people back to the office, now people are saying, I'm not coming back to the office. No, I've been working with the, you know, for the past three years I've been working from home. Chad Sowash: Yeah. It's been okay then why not now? Carrie Corcoran: It was fine now. So, so what's the big deal? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And I think people are waking up to the fact that like, I'm not gonna do what you want just because you want me back in the office. Chad Sowash: Right. Carrie Corcoran: And maybe they won't quit immediately, but they're gonna look for something else. And there it's, it's bad for retention. Chad Sowash: So au-autonomy is what I'm hearing, right? That can be a big part of your employer brand and when you lose that... Carrie Corcoran: Yes. Chad Sowash: That could prospectively really dramatically impact your employer brand, right? Carrie Corcoran: I believe so. Definitely. Chad Sowash: Okay. Okay. Do you think we will see that with a lot of these big brands who are forcing employees back into the office? Do you think we will see that a lot of the, the uh, the talent who wants to... They wanna be treated like adults, they're gonna go to different brands. They, they don't need to work at a Goldman Sachs. They can work somewhere else. Carrie Corcoran: I think we will see an exodus. I don't think that it's going to happen immediately. I mean it has already started happening I think in certain aspects where, you know, maybe someone's like worked for a Fortune 500 or 100 and they're like, Hey, I've never worked for a startup before. Maybe I wanna go do that route instead and try something different. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: So I think it's already starting to happen, but you know, people have to have an income and they have to provide for their basic needs and while they have that... Chad Sowash: They're looking for something else. Carrie Corcoran: They're looking for something else, but they're not gonna quit. Chad Sowash: Gotcha. Carrie Corcoran: And potentially not have anything lined up. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: I mean, unless you're in a dual income family. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Not a lot of people can do that. Chad Sowash: Well we've seen research actually pop out this week that, uh, demonstrated that they believe people are gonna stay put in 2024, but that doesn't mean that they're not looking. Carrie Corcoran: Right. Chad Sowash: Their eyes are wide open, but they're gonna stay put 'cause they're looking for that, that stability and maybe 2025 next thing you know, we, we see job hopping supreme. Carrie Corcoran: So I, I think the next thing that people are gonna look for is, am I serving my purpose and what is that purpose. Chad Sowash: Instead of the company's purpose? Carrie Corcoran: Correct. Chad Sowash: You're focused more on, I mean 'cause as as we grew up and the boomers raised us. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Chad Sowash: We were focused on what is the company's purpose. Carrie Corcoran: Right. Chad Sowash: Not really our purpose so much. Carrie Corcoran: Right. What's your, what's the company's mission? The values? Chad Sowash: Yes. Carrie Corcoran: And no. But I think now there's more of a collective consciousness and a raising of that where people are saying what is my purpose and does this job align to what I am truly... What I should be doing? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Or is it getting cl... Me closer to my purpose and what that looks like? Chad Sowash: Feels very Gen Z. Does it not? Joel Cheesman: Yeah, it does. What's your take on technology's role in all of this? On one hand, ghosting is a huge issue. So automation, chat technologies can kind of get out of the ghost category, but also it's replacing people to do the work that technology is doing. What's your take? Is technology a good thing or a bad thing for employment brand? Carrie Corcoran: Oof. I think technology is a double-edged sword. Why I say that is you still, you're always gonna want and need the human in human relations in employer brand, in recruitment marketing. The companies that have that human touch... Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Are gonna be more successful. Chad Sowash: It's in the title. Carrie Corcoran: With their candidates. Exactly. Like keep the freaking human in HR. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: And I do think that technology plays a role and it certainly can help with making things more efficient. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Carrie Corcoran: Most companies may be utilized 5% of technology when they purchase it. Chad Sowash: Yes. Carrie Corcoran: When it may be capable of 80% more... Chad Sowash: Right. Carrie Corcoran: Than what they're looking at. And I'm really bad at math, so I don't know if that added up to a hundred or not. Joel Cheesman: You're a brand person. It's okay. Chad Sowash: You're okay. Carrie Corcoran: And with chatGPT I mean, I'm sorry. Like if I can do a project in five minutes using chatGPT and instead of spending two hours on it... Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. Carrie Corcoran: I mean that's efficiency and I'm all about like making it as easy as possible. Chad Sowash: Do you feel like it's gonna get more vanilla though? Kind of like, uh, adult contemporary radio in the '80s, everything on the radio sounded the exact same, right? Do you think it's gonna be kinda like the same thing? Carrie Corcoran: Well, everything on the news sounds the exact same, so, uh. Chad Sowash: Are you saying they're using chatGPT and and Bard, uh, to do these things? Carrie Corcoran: Well, I wouldn't be surprised. Chad Sowash: I wouldn't, yeah. I wouldn't be either. Yes. Carrie Corcoran: Um, I, you know, I forgot the question. So. Joel Cheesman: Let me pivot to this real quick. I'm always fascinated by the generational divides of what people think are important. Chad mentioned, you know, gen X rub some dirt on it and get back out there versus the millennials and the gen uh, gen Zs are coming up. How do you think as an employment brand expert, the generations, uh, are separate or how we should be thinking about the generations in different ways? Carrie Corcoran: So I think, I mean, because I am over 50 and I am Gen X, I believe that there's a huge gap with discrimination for the over 50. And we have so much knowledge and value that we can bring to a company, but because they always say, oh, they're too much money, we don't wanna pay them to do that. Well, would you rather pay someone more money and have faster results? Or would you rather just have someone figure it out themselves who's no offense, like, you know, 25, 26 years old out of college. Chad Sowash: Right. Carrie Corcoran: And it takes them a year. Chad Sowash: Yeah. You're gonna need two or three of those individuals to actually do what one... Carrie Corcoran: Exactly. Chad Sowash: Let's a Gen X or, somebody who has more experience, right. Connections, those types of things. Carrie Corcoran: Right? So there's certainly a different divide. So the millennials, maybe they want more, they're more interested in working for innovative companies, or having a real impact on, you know, how can I help change the world by working for a company and things like that. So there's definitely a divide there with Gen Z. I mean, I, I'm petrified to death of TikTok. It is a way to reach them. But. Chad Sowash: It's, it's amazing. You should try it out. Joel Cheesman: You gotta embrace it. Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. Joel Cheesman: You gotta embrace it. Chad Sowash: The best 30 minutes of my day is on TikTok. Carrie Corcoran: One, uh, one day. Joel Cheesman: That is Carrie Corcoran. Everybody with the Carrie Cares Employment brand Consulting Business. Chad Sowash: Carrie Cares. Joel Cheesman: For those that want to connect with you, learn more about your company. Carrie, where would you send them? Carrie Corcoran: I would send them to LinkedIn. Look for Carrie Corcoran, Carrie Cares Employer Brand. And I also have a YouTube channel where... Chad Sowash: Oh, look at you. Carrie Corcoran: I have many educational videos out there. Chad Sowash: Nice. Carrie Corcoran: Carrie Cares Employment Brand on YouTube as well. Joel Cheesman: Love it. That is one in the can from the TA Tech Week conference live from the Qualify booth. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Podcast Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss is so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese, is so weird. We out.

The future of recruiting is a popular topic these days. With AI and automation tools that are on a whole other level to tech of the past, many wonder how the future will play out for the profession that has for so long been a staple of corporate strategy. Fortunately, we have wise ol' veterans who know the past, but can also see around corners better than most. Age and vision are in short supply. That's why we had Kevin Wheeler, author, speaker and founder of Global Learning Resources, to the podcast. Kevin has a new book coming out in February entitled, “Talent Acquisition Excellence: Using Digital Capabilities and Analytics to Improve Recruitment,” that will prove helpful to those hoping the navigate the future like an ancient oracle. We're talkin' predictions for 2024, the pandemic impact, labor uprisings, how the kids are alright, and much more. Listen, subscribe, like and share. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, flash brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Yeah, it's your AI copilot's favorite podcast, aka the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joined as always, the Terminator to my RoboCop, Chad Sowash is in the house. Chad: Hello. Joel: And we are super excited to welcome Kevin Wheeler, author, speaker, icon, founder of Global Learning Resources, and just all around nice guy to the show. Kevin, welcome. Chad: How you doing, Kevin? Kevin Wheeler: I'm good. A guy with no headphones. Chad: You're good. You're good. You've got headphones on. You're fine. You're fine. Joel: You sound great, Kevin. Sound great. And might I say, one of the best heads of hair for one of the veterans in the industry. Chad: Yeah it's pretty sexy. Joel: I've always been an admirer of your hair. Kevin Wheeler: I still have hair. Joel: That is good. That is good. That is good. So beyond hair, I mentioned you're an icon. I met you 15 years ago. I know that you were cracking before that. Give the listeners who don't know you a Twitter bio about Kevin. Kevin Wheeler: See, I've been in the recruiting space since the '80s. Started out as a corporate recruiter and in corporate HR and spent 17 years in the corporate world and then went out on my own, started Global Learning Resources and the Future of Talent Institute. And I run both of those organizations right now. We really focus on future trends in the HR Space, but we really focus on recruitment and learning and development. Those are our two primary areas. And so we look at what are the trends, what's going to look like in a few more years. So we try to look out as far as we can. We don't have a crystal ball. We just kind of do a trend analysis. We did a lot of work with SRI, which was the old Stanford Research Institute, and we use techniques from them and the Institute for the Future, which is where I spent some time working there when I first started out on my own. And so we use a lot of techniques that they use to do future looking forecasting. Joel: You're in Australia a lot, aren't you? Kevin Wheeler: I am. I have a business in Australia as well. Joel: Oh, have you been bitten by one of the many venomous animals in Australia? Kevin Wheeler: No. You know, it's really overrated. Their venomous animals, they're there, but they don't like the cities. So as long as you're not out in the country. Joel: Wise. Kevin Wheeler: You're pretty safe. Yeah. Joel: Wise. Chad: Joel's afraid to go. He knows he's going to be eaten by something. Anyway, Kevin, tell the kids at home. I mean, you were a recruiter back in the column inches days, back in the days when resumes were actually on paper. So talk a little bit about, I mean, we're seeing huge advancements now, but talk about the difference between advancements back from column inches to online, from today online to AI. Kevin Wheeler: Not a whole lot has changed, I mean, if I had... Chad: Holy shit! Really? Kevin Wheeler: If you were, if I had disappeared for the last 30 years and came back, it would probably take me 2 hours to get back into it again. That's how little has changed. The major change is the computer. Right. The Internet. That's really it. Instead of paper, we just, we look at paper online now. That's all. So we haven't really changed anything except we went from a physical piece of paper to a digital piece of paper. We still do everything the same way. We still interview, we still source we still, instead of cold calling, which we still do some, but now we search people on the Internet. So really other than the computer, it's been very little difference. Recruiter productivity hasn't improved. If you had a professional hires, you did 20 reqs, maybe 15-20 reqs today, same thing. Nothing's changed. Chad: But scale has changed, though, right? I mean, you would get like three applications for a job. Today you get 300. So scale has changed dramatically. And that recruiter who actually owned that req back in the day when they had three resumes, today they have 300, the workload has changed dramatically. Right? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. You'd certainly get more resumes today than you did back then. A lot more than used to get, but the difference is you can screen the ones today more quickly using the technology. If you use the technology, which most people do to some degree. Chad: You should. Kevin Wheeler: Back then, I had to read. I had to open envelopes and read every one of them. So, anyway, you had three, but it was sort of like 30 that are online. Chad: What's an envelope? What's an envelope? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah, what's an envelope? Right. Yeah, right. Then you had to read the cover letter. That was usually a piece of crap and so... Chad: Still is. Kevin Wheeler: It still is. Chad: Bard and Chat GPT, they do a hell of a cover letter today. Kevin Wheeler: They do a really good job. They do, yeah. And they make up really good resumes too. Joel: Am I hearing bullish or bearishness on the recruiting profession Kevin? As you talk, tell us about the past and the future. Kevin Wheeler: Well, I just I don't, neither really. It's neutral. I think. It hasn't done anything. It's pretty much the same as it always was. The only thing that's really happened is that we now use to some degree, not all recruiters, but many do use computers and so forth. But this small company recruiters who don't do it any differently than I did 30 years ago, they still get paper resumes. They still, it's amazing. But when you look at all the professions out there, finance, anything, it's all changed dramatically. But HR and recruiting have not changed that much. Chad: Why write a book if nothing has changed? You just wrote a book. Joel: He wrote it in 1987 and just added the Internet to where it said newspapers, so it's the same book. Kevin Wheeler: Because Chat GPT is a weapon of mass destruction. All right? Joel: Oh, let's get to the title because it's a mouthful, Kevin. So it's coming out in February, late February. It's pre-sale at Amazon, Target, all your favorites It's called Talent Acquisition Excellence, using digital capabilities and analytics to improve recruitment. Now, you co-authored this with our friend Bas in the Netherlands. Kevin Wheeler: Right. Joel: So tell us about the origin, what message you're trying to give, what preparation for the future you're hoping to relay to the reader. Kevin Wheeler: Sure. You know, Bas and I have known each other for a long time. I do a lot of work in the Netherlands with different organizations. And we were just talking about the impact that AI already has had and is going to have much more over the next few years. And we decided it was time to put down some of our thoughts on paper. So that's kind of what we did. We took, we've been working on this book for over a year, year and a half or so, and a lot changed in the time we were writing the book obviously, lots of things have changed. But Chat GPT is a game changer for many things. It's probably as powerful for recruiting, maybe more powerful than the Internet was in that it actually allows people to actually not do things that they used to have to do or think that they had to do, help find people, screen people, assess people, even engage them in conversation, things that recruiters historically believe they have to do or that nothing else can do it except them. And I think now we're finding that other things like AI can do a lot of what they do, and that's a game changer. Chad: So what is the book about? Is it literally just talking about doomsday destruction, dystopian. Hey, look, the robots are taking our stuff? Kevin Wheeler: No. Chad: So talk about it. What's the book talking about? Kevin Wheeler: All right, first of all, it talks about all the trends that are impacting talent in general. All right? Stuff like demographics, things like changing nature of work, what people are thinking about work. The pandemic was also a huge catalyst in this. All right? So there's several things that have sort of come together, the demographic, the declining populations all over the western world for sure, and in China and places like that. That's short, that's increasing the talent shortage and will exacerbate it big time over the next few years. You combine that with the impact of the pandemic, which really got people thinking differently about work. Maybe I can work from home now, maybe I don't have to do it the way I used to do it. Kevin Wheeler: Everybody, corporations, CEOs, everybody's looking at work in a different way than they did before. And again, that's enabled to a large degree by the Internet, but it's also enabled by the generative AI, the tools that exist now, and much more capability with virtual reality and other things that are about to hit the marketplace and change a lot. I mean, I think in two or three years from now, we would feel like we're sitting in the same room together because we'll have the virtual capabilities to make that reality. So that's going to change a lot of things about work, about should we go back to the office? Well, the office may be brought to you via virtual tools. So these things are all changing everything about talent, about work. Companies, organizations, governments are all faced with new challenges, like the gig-workforce, which is huge now. It's probably 20% of the workforce or more. Kevin Wheeler: And growing is people that are independent and want to stay independent. And governments are doing their best to coerce people back to full-time work. And the reason for that partly is taxes. Freelancers only pay taxes occasionally, where when you work for the man, you pay them every week. So the government has a predictable source of income coming from payroll deduction taxes. Freelancers, they don't have that. They can't predict how much they're going to get and when they're going to get it. So there's a lot of subtle things nobody talks about, nobody thinks about that have an impact on why people are pushing people back to work, why we want full-time workers and not gig-workers, because cities are suffering tax wise by not having full buildings. Professor Berkeley says for every job that we create in a company, you create five ancillary jobs. People like the restaurant owner, the waitress, the dry cleaner. So every time you lay somebody off, you've in fact laid off five people. So these are huge impacts on employment and on the tax-base in cities. So there's all kinds of things that are in-flux right now that are changing. Joel: Kevin, we hear like, this will be a net loss of jobs, but we're going to gain more jobs because of AI. Like, where are you on? Will we gain more jobs because of this technology like we have in the past, or is this time different? Kevin Wheeler: Well, I guess it depends on how you define a job. And if you define a job as working for a corporation from eight to five, we're going to lose those jobs, but we're going to gain a lot more jobs independent, working independently, working on their own schedules and using their own skill-sets the way they want to. So it's going to be really hard to say, are we going to gain or lose jobs or employment? I think in the end, most people will still find something to do to earn money. It's just going to be different than the way we used to doing it in the past. And it's not going to be a revolution. It's going to be an evolution, that's already happened. It's big time. When you've got 20% of the workforce already as a gig-worker and you look at Gen Z and Gen Alpha, which is the generation after Gen Z, they're already copping out. They're saying, I don't want to do this. I don't want to work for companies. I'm going to figure out ways to be entrepreneurial. Chad: Which is evolution, like you're talking about. I mean, the movement to remote work instead of Henry Ford nine to five, 40 hours a week, it's all about productivity and being able to hit those sales goals, those product goals, whatever they are, right? It could take somebody 20 hours a week to do what somebody else does in 40, it almost feels like CEOs are trying to stop this evolution. Can it be stopped, number one? And number two, I mean, if you are getting paid gig-wise, as long as it's not under the table, you're still going to pay those taxes. It's just going to be at the back-end and they're going to be a big ass chunk. Right? So what's bad about the evolution? And can CEOs and government stop this evolution? Kevin Wheeler: Can you stop it? No, there's no way, you can't stop revolutions. They don't get stopped. You can slow them down, you can get in the way of them, but you can't stop them. So I think it's really a matter of the, CEOs are pushing people to come back for a couple of reasons. One is political pressure that may be subtly applied through city governments and state governments to them calling them up and saying, look, guys, this is impacting our revenues, our taxes, and so forth and so on. But it's also that they're my age, they grew up in the time when everybody worked eight to five, and that's all they know. That's what they're used to. Chad: They punch the clock, they punch the clock. Right? Kevin Wheeler: They punch the clock. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, for them, that's work. That's how you define work. Right. And they can't even imagine how you can sit at home and do what you guys are doing and make money. They can't understand that. All right. Joel: We still can't understand that Kevin. Who do you hope reads the book? Is it executives? Is it recruiters? Is it the kids out there looking for career options? Kevin Wheeler: It's not going to... Joel: Who do you hope reads this? Kevin Wheeler: I don't think it's going to be the kids out there. I think hopefully it'll be recruiters. Hopefully it will be HR people, and hopefully we'll get a few CEOs to read the book. That would be great. Joel: Yeah, you better get on TikTok, Kevin, if you want the kids to notice. Kevin Wheeler: I know. I know. Joel: @Kevinwheeler, TikTok channel coming soon. Kevin Wheeler: TikTok. Yeah. I'm on TikTok, but I still can't figure out how to use it. So it's... Joel: Yeah. You wrote a post recently kind of pivoting away from the book about predictions for 2024. Any of your lists that you want to highlight that you're really, really positive or optimistic about? Kevin Wheeler: Well, I mean, obviously the first prediction was that generative AI would become a dominant player in recruitment, and it definitely will. I mean, I think you're going to find that recruiters are going to have to, there're going to be a lot fewer recruiters. We've seen massive layoffs of recruiters in the last year. That's not going to change. They're not going to get hired back. There's no reason to hire them back. Joel: So, I want to dig into that real quick. So a lot of recruiters listening to this are going, holy shit, my job is gone or I'm at risk of losing my job and I'm not coming back. That tells me that, that just really concerns me, what do you tell them in terms of what they should do? Get a new line of work, learn new skills? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. Joel: What advice would you give them after saying the jobs aren't coming back for recruiters? Kevin Wheeler: All the above. I'll put it this way. If you're a seasoned recruiter who's been doing this for a few years, you're probably going to have, you're going to be able to get a job and keep a job for a while, but you're going to need new skills to do that. You're going to need to get in-touch with, in-tune with AI and with the technology that's out there and you're going to have to let go of some of those things that you have cherished, such as only I can screen people and only I can interview people and so forth. Chad: Yes. Kevin Wheeler: We're going to have to let those things go away. If you're a new, if you've just been in recruiting for a year or two and got laid-off, go find a new job because I don't think you're going to find a long-term future in recruiting. Okay? The thing is, recruiters are going to have to reinvent their profession and that's really what it's all about. And by reinventing it, let Chat GPT and generative AI do what it can do best and then figure out what it can't do and do that. And that's really going to be the more judgment stuff, the marketing stuff, the relationship building, the influencing kind of things. All right, so if I can find for most jobs, Chat GPT or the generative AI tools will be able to find the people you're looking for, for the routine jobs, for sure. They're out there. Kevin Wheeler: So it can find them. It can assess their skills in a very objective way. If you're a coder, if you're a writer, it can look at writing samples or code samples and assess them against the job reqs and job requirements and it can present that candidate to a hiring manager. I envision the day when a hiring manager can go to their terminal and type-in that I'm looking for X and a few minutes later it appears in their screen, all pre-screened and sorted by generative AI. I think that's reality that's going to happen. Now, it may not happen for every job. It's not going to happen for maybe the senior level executive kind of jobs and so forth. But for most jobs, it's going to be a routine kind of thing. Okay? So you don't even need a recruiter at all in that. Chad: So, Kevin, the interesting thing is that, let's say for these large language models and some of these algorithms, they've been around forever. And to be able to do what you just said, go into my database and match it up against a requisition, we've been able to do that for 10 years. Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. Chad: What has been the moment that actually made everybody to say, oh, shit, we need to start adopting this because now everybody's talking about large language models. Well, we had them before, we had the data before and some of these companies have been around for years, so why now? Kevin Wheeler: Well, I'll just push back a little bit. I'll say we didn't have large language models. We had algorithms, all right? And they're different. And we had algorithms that were recipes, basically. If you see this, do this. We could look at a req, match it up against a candidate's specifically listed skill-set. But we couldn't intuit. We couldn't intuit skills. We couldn't use the capabilities that now exist in large language models to look at those skills and say, well, if this person can do this, then probably they can do this. Kevin Wheeler: All right? We couldn't do that before. It was just a one-for-one matching process and algorithms, all right? So, now we've got the ability to use more, I guess you'd call fuzzy matching tools or ability. So, I can look at you guys and say, oh, you guys do podcasts. Well, you're probably pretty good speakers. You're probably good doing a whole bunch of other things, okay? So, I could intuit that because I'm a human being and I can figure out, probably you guys have other things you could do and you're probably be pretty good at it because of what you do now. An algorithm can't do that. The large language models can do that and that's what's so powerful. And after a company has used these models for a while and they've gotten and they've learned, which is another capability that algorithms don't generally have, these are capable of learning, they can actually get and continuously improve as they get feedback and see the results of their recommendations. Kevin Wheeler: So, if they recommend three people to you with certain qualifications and none of them ever get hired, they're going to change their process. They're going to change their algorithms to become more attuned to what you're actually looking for. So, there's a lot of subtle differences in the large language models and the power that we now have in computing. Again, up until a few years ago, computing was very constricted by the amount of computing power you had. Chad: CPUs versus GPUs. GPUs and NVIDIA have kicked ass. Kevin Wheeler: Oh, kicked ass. Totally, totally changed the game, okay? So, I mean, NVIDIA's hardware has been the winner for the last few years. I think over the next few, you're going to see software gaining more and more capabilities. So, there's been real fundamental changes in what's going on. I have to talk to Alexa. Alexa, turn on the office. [laughter] Joel: I'm so happy we got Kevin Wheeler to say kick ass on a podcast. If nothing else comes of this podcast, that was great. Kevin Wheeler: Listener, you're welcome. Joel: Yeah, you're welcome, internet. You're welcome, industry. So, Kevin, Chad and I advise quite a few startups that sell this stuff, develop it. And one of the things that I hear, I'm sure Chad does as well, is that there tends to be a natural pushback on this technology because you're potentially taking my job if we buy your service. So, you have all these sort of forces working against and for. The other part of that, in light of forces of change, you in California with minimum wage laws, which I have to think are pushing more and more companies to automate and use AI because I don't have to hire anybody or pay them anything because I can get the robots to do that. Curious about your opinion of the push and pull of technology. I assume it's just going to happen, but you have government involved. You have the industry involved. These companies want to go to the CEO. They don't want to talk to HR anymore because HR isn't going to buy this thing because it might mean their job. Talk about that. Kevin Wheeler: I mean, clearly, this pushback. Obviously, nobody, very few people welcome a tool that's going to take away their job. The guys that used to dig ditches before the bulldozer didn't want the bulldozer to come. You've got the old story of John Henry, the pile driving guy who didn't want automated railroad development. These histories are not new. These have been going on. But the bottom line is stopping. Technology is not possible. It's not possible to stop it. So, inevitably, it's going to take over more and more of these roles. And a smart person looks at ways to get better than the technology or develop skills the technology doesn't have. So, I mean, I think that clearly there's going to be a huge push toward automation, partly because of costs and partly because of productivity. Kevin Wheeler: I look at the UAW agreement recently, which is a five years on parole before they're all gone. Okay, so we're going to give you we're going to give you a lot of money for five years, way more than we've ever given any union contract before, because we're going to use that five years to automate everything in the plant. And in five years, we're not going to need you guys. This is what's happening. I mean, this is the reality. They know that when they look at Japan, which is, the car manufacturing there is like 80% automated and it's going to go even more that we're going to... And General Motors is way behind. So you're going to see this acceleration and the use of automation for everything. Joel: And that's the same for the in and out worker. Like enjoy the next five years of $20 per hour, because after that, the clock strikes twelve. Kevin Wheeler: That's exactly right. So, if you're smart and you kind of look ahead and see that and what are the occupations that are coming? Well, we don't know yet. There'll be new ones. There'll be a lot of things that people do. I mean, thirty, hundred years ago, people were telephone operators and elevator operators and everything else that are long gone in history. But those people all found other things to do. So I'm pretty sure that we will continue to generate work for people. But it may be work that's done part time. It may be done freelance. It's not maybe going to be going to a factory or to an office building. So we're completely changing work. Joel: Where are you on UBI in favor? Not so much? Universal basic income, particularly in California. Kevin Wheeler: I mean, I think, again, that's some sort of that is inevitable. Just to look at if you're General Motors and I can now automate car manufacturing so I can lower my costs tremendously, which increases my profits tremendously because I'm not paying people to work. I'm not trying to pay these robots. So I'm going to generate excessive profits, which we have to. It's all about redistributing income, right? So what do we do? How do we redistribute? Chad: Always has been. Kevin Wheeler: Always has been. So if we if we can tax those organizations at the same rate or roughly the same rate they would have paid wages, then we can redistribute that to people as universal basic income. All right. Now, the experiments that have been done with UBI are very positive. It's about people don't just sit back and watch TV all day. They actually find other things to do, but they don't have to worry about, paying for their lodging and their food. So I'm not saying we give people a 100 grand a year, but you give people enough money that they don't worry about the basics in life. And then they can go and do things that they're passionate about or they love or they like to do. So I think UBI and the history of where it's worked well in many places it has is pretty positive. And Europe has a sort of UBI. I mean, they don't really call it that, but they have a pretty heavily subsidized safety net, they call it. So nobody nobody goes without housing or without medical care because the government covers that. And those countries aren't dying. They're doing okay. And I think, most other countries will follow that, will have to follow that because the automation wave is going to force that to happen. Chad: The actual taxing, I think, is going to be the the key when we start taking a look at these jobs and obviously profitability. Well, what we've seen and we don't have any guardrails on this unfortunately, is during the pandemic, profit margins just exploded. Profit margin exploded, then we want to blame inflation on people buying stuff when it's expanded profit margins. And then what happens? Then we have to play the whole economic game of now. We have to raise interest rates to hit the low wage earners and the middle wage earners. I mean, there's got to be new mechanisms to be able to help everybody in the stack, not just the top, which unfortunately we've seen. It's been fed by trickle, not non-trickle down economics for over 40 years. Kevin Wheeler: Yeah, absolutely. Chad: You think this is going to do it, though? Is this really going to push all of that out the window? Kevin Wheeler: It's definitely going to help. It may not be. I think more quite a few progressive economists and others are thinking about we have to overhaul the whole tax system, our whole way of generating government revenues. Everything is based on the 20th century eight to five workday model. That's that's what we built it on. In the golden age, back when the Rockefellers and the Carnegie Mellons and all built, 500 room mansions that they used for one month a year was because we didn't have an income tax and we didn't redistribute income. So the income tax that came in in the early 1900s was a huge, huge shift. A massive shift in how we redistribute income. And that created the 20th century world that we're used to. So we're in another massive change of how do we redistribute income again? What's the mechanism for doing that? And we have... It's probably not going to be the traditional income tax that we're used to. It's probably going to be a very different set of tools. I don't know what they are yet. I'm not an economist, but clearly we need to rethink the whole system of how we distribute income. And technology is clearly going to play a major role in that. Joel: And the US isn't in a bubble anymore. It's a global economy working remotely. Any thoughts on how that shakes out, particularly with geopolitical risks that we're coming to a head with China? Kevin Wheeler: We've got so many facing us right this moment. And who knows, we may be in a war in the Middle East and Europe before this year's out. Looking not so good every day. We've got all kinds of issues there. China has serious economic problems right now. The only place that the World Economic Forum right now is predicting GDP growth is Asia. And Asia looks pretty solid right now, especially Southeast Asia, Singapore, Indonesia, those countries, they look pretty robust. GDP, maybe 4 or 5% growth this year, where the US is predicted to be 1.2 maybe, maybe less. We've got real shifts and where the money is and where the power is. Joel: I don't want to end this on a bummer of like World War 3. I'm going to ask about a post that you wrote or at least shared. It was entitled The Future Workplace is on Campus. I found that interesting. Did you write that? And if so, what do you mean? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah, I think the younger people, college grads, maybe not just college grads, are the ones that are changing the world. They always have been and they always will be. The change is coming from them when you look at how they're reacting to work, how they're facing employment decisions. It's completely different than the way you and I thought about things when we were their age. So they're not all... Some of them are definitely applying at General Electric and Amazon for jobs. But a lot of them aren't, a whole bunch aren't? A lot of them aren't even finishing uni. They're dropping out. 60% of guys who start university don't finish within a five to six year period. Huge statistic. So we've got a lot of people just opting to do things in a very different way and go out on their own, explore their own world and develop their own careers and their own jobs. And they're going to invent a lot of new things. Joel: Thank God the millennials are making the young choices anymore. They're the old people like us. That is Kevin Wheeler, everybody. Kevin, for those who want to connect with you or you want to piss that book, where would they go to get that thing? Kevin Wheeler: Yeah. Go on Amazon. Look for Talent Acquisition Excellence. You'll find it there. You can look at look me up at the futureoftalent.org website or globallearningresources.com. Happy to chat. Chad: Excellent. Joel: That's Kevin Wheeler, Chad. Another one is in the can. Let's not wait another six years before we bring Kevin onto the show again. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Kevin Wheeler: See ya. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one, cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who? Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. This is so weird. We out.

Torin Ellis, a self-described coach, consultant, and speaker specializing in diversity and inclusion joins the boys for a Black History Month check-on on the current state of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). Torin shares his perspective on the importance of universal design and organizational redesign in fostering inclusivity, addressing the backlash against "wokeism," the challenges in advancing DEI, and the need for a collective voice to combat setbacks, such as Supreme Court decision to terminate Affirmative Action. Torin emphasizes the significance of taking action and not just relying on discussions, urging organizations to address issues like pay inequality actively. The trio explores strategies to navigate the socio-political landscape and drive progress in DEI initiatives. Then we discuss a controversial statements made by Governor Ron DeSantis, equating slavery to a work training program, and emphasizing the importance of addressing racism and inequality beyond just conversations in black churches but spreading awareness in various communities. The conversation delves into the challenges of building relationships, advocating for honest discussions around diversity, equity, and inclusion. Torin shares insights into the increasing demand for diversity and inclusion education in companies, highlighting the need for CEOs to make a genuine commitment, allocate resources, and be held accountable for diversity initiatives. The discussion also touches on the performative nature of some diversity efforts and the importance of tangible outcomes. Torin reflects on the debate between Elon Musk and Mark Cuban, emphasizing the need for action in addition to public discourse. Finally, as it is Black History Month, Torin shares his personal connection to the month and encourages understanding and support from individuals, acknowledging the potential for positive change when addressing interference in achieving diversity goals. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah. It's SZA's favorite podcast, AKA The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joined as always, the Arsenio to my Eddie, Chad Sowash is in the house. And we welcome back, good friend of the show, Torin Ellis. He is the Principal of the Torin Ellis brand, one of the best speakers around, consultant, advisor, and just all around good dude. Torin, welcome again to the podcast. Torin Ellis: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I think it was back in September, 2018. I get to meet my Chad and Cheese debut. It was beautiful. And let me tell you, it was around the time where we were celebrating blockchain and artificial intelligence and machine learning. We talked a lot about cryptocurrency and some of the other attributes of change inside of the workplace. But then, Joel and Chad, we were also ignoring babies in cages. And here we are now in 2024, where it's taken more than 200 times for us to federal, on a federal level, pass an anti-lynching bill, more than 200 attempts to pass an anti-lynching bill. And yet in the last two years, we've seen more than 500 critical race theory bills in states all across the country. So we got a whole lot of work to do. Joel: So leave it to you to jump right to the... Go right to the chase. Torin Ellis: Right to the meat. Joel: Believe it or not, some of our listeners don't know you yet, Torin. Give us a quick Twitter bio about you, and then we'll dive into all this shit. Torin Ellis: Yeah, I appreciate that. Coach, consultant, speaker, all things, diversity and inclusion. Said another way, I am a frequency of humanity. I am a voice of humanity. I am an advocate of humanity. And so everything that I am attempting to do for the both of you and for the audience, everything that I'm attempting to do is to just simply make it better for people in the places in which they work. Chad: It's pretty amazing because when I first got into the, let's say for instance, the state federal government and working with them along with major Fortune 500 companies, we heard this term "universal design." And universal design meant it was good for everybody. Individuals with disabilities didn't matter, right? Whether you couldn't hear, you didn't have sight, didn't matter, right? Universal design. But the beautiful part about universal design is it didn't just make things accessible for those individuals. It made things better for everybody. So what you're talking about, and I wish we could get on this talk track, okay? This doesn't just... Everybody's talking about, they want to focus on race, they want to focus on gender, they want to focus on people who are not gendered, right? Instead of saying, "This is good for humanity. It's all good. Let's roll with it." Chad: And that being said, unfortunately, and this is out in the New York Times, there's been a backlash against what is called the "wokeism" on banning DEI programs in public universities. And even in states, there have been books, there's just been so much backlash. We had such great momentum after the tragedy of George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd, right? We had so much momentum, and we felt like we were going in the right direction. But for God's sake, what the hell happened? Torin Ellis: Yeah. So first, I want to go back to the universal design piece because for a person like myself, I tend to go into organizations and/or will stand on stage and say, or use the phrase "organizational redesign." And it's not that I feel like the universal design is short-sighted. It's not that I feel universal design is in any way dismissive or nefarious. I think it was a best attempt at that time. And I feel like it's a best attempt in the time, wherever it's... Whether it be a product, a service, some sort of access to a building, whatever, I do feel like universal design has its place in our commentary. I also feel like we should be spending a great deal of time in organizational redesign, which is where I am. And so to your question, Chad, of what happened, I feel like it's one of those situations where individuals that are in power don't want to relinquish that power. Torin Ellis: They don't feel like they can share that power, which is part of what I said in my presentations from 2021 up until now, we need a shift in that relationship with power, period. We need to find a frequency. We need to find that metal within us that allows us to speak up, to have voice in situations that are unjust or that are unfair or that are biased or that are inequitable. We absolutely have to be able to call a spade a spade. And what that means in calling that out is, there will be some sacrifice. There will be some sacrifice. People will lose promotional opportunity. They will lose favor with their bosses, the in-crowd in the workplace. You will lose choice assignments. You may lose bumps in pay or whatever. You will sacrifice when you use your voice, but it's mandatory that we use our voice because status quo honestly is killing us. Torin Ellis: It is a direct correlation between the rise in mental health and challenges that people are exhibiting and discussing in the workplace, and the fact that so many are trying to remain status quo. So I believe the callback that we are experiencing... And quite frankly, I don't even call it a callback. It's a robbery. Chad: Yeah. Torin Ellis: You know what I'm saying? Theft. We don't know who took it. It happened. We weren't there. We couldn't see them. But this right here is a robbery of the progress that we've made in diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. We see the people who are taking it from us or attempting to take it from us, and it's up to us to arrest them. Joel: How would you define the current state of DEI? There was a period where it was on the upswing. We're all sort of on the same page and moving things forward. And then as you mentioned, it got politicized. It got used as a way to garner attention or political clout or power. Where do you see it today and where do you see it 12, 24 months from now? Torin Ellis: Yeah. Where I see it today is, we still need to advocate even for our educators. The way that I opened up the show, so many people in classrooms all across this country are wrestling with, well, how do we talk about and celebrate and amplify Black History Month? And next month, it'll be Women's Month, Women's History Month. And I can guarantee you, there are going to be people who are going to be struggling with, well, how do we amplify and talk about the incredible work from this particular woman or these groups of women or whatever the case may be? So I still see DEI as potent. I see it as present. I see it as effective now as it has ever been. And where I see it in 12 to 24 months is that we will have made progress. Torin Ellis: The question, Joel, is how much progress? And what I'm tired of, if "tired" is the right descriptor, I'm tired of minimal progress. It's so small that even that tiny bit of advancement, that tiny bit of shared-ness, if you will, is something that people are trying to take back. And so I believe that we will see progress today. We'll see it at the end of 2024. We'll see it in 2025 and 2026. Question becomes, how much of it will we see? Joel: But from where you sit, minimal progress, but then from my perspective we see like huge hits. So when the Supreme Court throws out affirmative action, that's many steps back for a few steps forward from there. So you talk about progress, but what's your sense of these big hits that we're taking with, whether it's state legislation and public education, whether it's the Supreme Court? Like from where you sit, these are huge hits, yes? Torin Ellis: Yeah, they are, which is the reason why I would challenge a leader who says that we are an apolitical organization. You cannot detach the reality of how an individual grows up or how an individual is living, migrating, navigating life. And so just like you said, you bring all of that to the workplace. There are people who heard that decision who were floored. Floored. They couldn't even focus the day that that decision came out from the Supreme Court, and for days and weeks, maybe even months after that. So you can't really separate the two. They are major hits. But what I would suggest is, it's in those times that we absolutely have to be willing to exercise that voice, feeling empowered enough in our space that we can speak to that situation. Torin Ellis: We don't need to be somebody else. Just be who you are and voice to your HR team, "I don't like this. What are we going to do to make sure that we can take care of the marginalized, the underrepresented in our workplace? How can we make sure that we are protecting them?" Because while all of that is happening in the Supreme Court, what are we doing to make sure that we are protecting our employees, which in that case happen to be women? Chad: It seems, okay, so Roe v. Wade, affirmative action. We've been talking about the small victories over the years of, let's say, just focus on pay equity, right? It would take 50 years. And everybody's talking about progress. And this is what drives me so fucking crazy, is that the progress is so small that it's going to take decades for us to actually win and meet up together, right? To see equity at all. The question is, there's got to be something we can do to change the narrative to be able to bring more people under the big circus tent so that we can all work together to get to this goal, right? And the big question is, and I see what's happening from the side of the right who are actually bringing litigation lawsuits, those types of things, that they're trying to split, which they have over the years, us by race, right? Chad: So if we take a look at it, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't focus on those things, but if we take a look at all the individuals under a certain socioeconomic line and we focus on all of those people, no matter what color, no matter what gender, what have you, just to be able to drive equity, pay, those types of things, do you think that is prospectively a more successful narrative moving forward? Because we've got to find a narrative, man. We've got to. Torin Ellis: Well, it's a narrative as well as action, Chad. And so I think it's not an either/or proposition. It is that. And so to your point, when we discuss pay inequality, why do we need another report to share with us that we have pay inequality? Why can't we do what Marc Benioff did with Salesforce a few years back? And they went through and looked at compensation for the entire workforce, not once, not twice, but three times, I believe that was the year of 2019 or so. They looked at pay compensation three times in a year to get pay equity across the organization. It's a matter of, "Let's have the conversation, but then let's be willing to take action." And when you see individuals that would prefer to be an impediment to progress, when you see individuals that are being stalwarts of stalling, you have to be able to call that out. And so sometimes it's the collective voice. Torin Ellis: Torin by himself is not necessarily going to work. Torin, Chad, and Joel together is a little bit stronger. Torin, Chad, and Joel times 10 is even stronger. And so I would believe that in many of these situations, it's the collective voice that we are missing. We have too many scattered voices that are working. We need collective voices that are amplifying these disservices or injustices that exist in our marketplace. And let me just say this to you. Like I said in the beginning, 200 times to get an anti-federal lynching bill. That wasn't signed until 2022. Now what in God's green earth would make a person say hanging an individual or lynching an individual is something that I can't get behind? 2022. So it's the collective voice. Sometimes it's going to take us a little bit longer. The fight is going to be a bit more uphill. It's going to be a bit more challenging and nuanced, but we must fight. Torin Ellis: And where I believe we are missing is... And when I use "fight," I use that nicely as well. It's in our taking action. We tire from taking action. And the secret is, that's what they are predicting. That's what they are banking on. The other side is banking on, how can we distract them? How can we get them off of focusing on the pay inequality? How can we get them focused on the fact that they're not represented in boards? How can we get people focused on the fact that we're not hiring people with disabilities? How can we get them to focus on or not focus on LGBTQ issues and keep putting shiny balls in front of us when inhumanity is something that should be central for all of us? But we have a governor who pretty much said that slavery was a work training program. Joel: Yeah. Torin Ellis: That was actually said. Joel: Yep. Torin Ellis: A governor in this United States who was running for president. Joel: Not just said, but in a textbook. It wasn't just a comment. Torin Ellis: Yep. Or that they gained skills that they could use later on in life. Chad: Yeah. A work training program, yeah. So let's talk about something that... In the green room, we talked a little bit about that I think is incredibly important because you had said that, we don't need White politicians to come into Black churches and talk to us. Torin Ellis: It was a Tweet put up by Kenny Akers and he said in that post, "We don't need White politicians to come into Black churches and talk about racism. We need White politicians to go into White churches and talk about racism." Chad: Let's amplify on that. We need, and this is one of the things that you pretty much challenged Joel and I to do back in 2019 when we asked you the question, what can two White dudes actually help the DEIB? You said, speak up. But even more so, speak up in your circles. Don't just go to the NAACP local chapter and have the discussion for God's sakes. They already know that shit. Get out there and have the discussion. So I guess what I would say is, challenging everybody to do the exact same thing. Torin Ellis: Yeah. Chad: Take those beliefs beyond that of just people who have the same belief system, and get out there and have those discussions. Torin Ellis: Yeah. The truth of the matter is, that life is challenging. Building relationship, it's challenging. Everyone doesn't necessarily get along. I have people that I don't necessarily like or wish to be around or have drinks with or socialize with at networking events. And some of that is because I know who those individuals are. Some of that is I don't know who they are and I'm a bit of an introvert and I'm not willing to walk across the room and introduce myself, nor do I care if they come across and introduce themselves to me. I'm not being mean about it. It's just the way that it is. But for the most part, what it requires is that we are honest in and outside of our circles. And so yes, I do want people to have conversations around inequality and access to opportunity and shared power and resources. I want people to have those conversations at their holiday table, in their gatherings, in their community, in the car when they are carpooling. I want them to have those conversations at the water cooler when they go to Chipotle to have lunch with their colleagues. Torin Ellis: I want these conversations to be had because the bottom line is, it's not all that hard. The truth of the matter is, it's not all that hard. I've had diverse teams in every corporate space that I've been in, and my teams have always performed well. I've also had diverse teams that at some point in performance did not perform so well, whether it was they didn't get a grasp of the product, they were working on their sales pitch and trying to navigate how to reposition this new addition that we had. We go through the ebb and the flow. But for a person to have a universal theme that diversity is not good or that diversity is always good, it's something that should be challenged. We should be willing to have honest conversations point blank. I believe personally that's where the HR tech space has failed us, is that we really don't have a solid piece of business intelligence software in the HR tech space that supports the dimensions of diversity and correlates with this conversation around diverse teams are more productive and more profitable. Joel: So you mentioned Chipotle, and just for the record, don't come talking to me about anything at Chipotle 'cause there's a barbacoa burrito stuff in my mouth. [laughter] Joel: You're on the front lines of this in the perspective of the company's organizations bring you in to talk about these issues, whether it's training, education and whatnot. And what's your sense today versus last year, the year before, of company's appetites for doing this? Because my perspective is, yes, we need people to speak up, but we also need companies to sort of step up as well. You're on the ground floor of that. What's your take on company's appetite for the kind of things that you talk about in the education that you're delivering? Torin Ellis: Yeah, I appreciate the question. The appetite for me personally is increased. I grew business last year. I lost two clients. One came to the end of their mandate, another one because I opened up a conference call and used the word "shit" at the top of the call, and they didn't necessarily like that. So I ended up losing that particular client. But that's what it is. I gained business. And the reason why I feel good about that is because I have some set rules. 10 years ago, when I started working in D&I, I would have an insertion point of anyone who could get me into the organization. VP of talent. It could be a recruiting lead. It could be a hiring manager. Now, my insertion point is a little bit different. It has to be sanctioned and secured by the executive level. I can begin conversations with anyone in the organization, but if your executive team, your C-suite doesn't sign off on making this investment, then I don't do the engagement. So I have a lot of organizations where I believe they are absolutely wanting to be better. Torin Ellis: And I think, Joel, part of the reason why they want to be better is because when they engage with a person like me, yes, I am unapologetic. Yes, I am very direct. But I'm not unfair. I'm not unreasonable. I'm also not a person who takes the conversation away from business. So I talk to them about marrying the business methodology with the social imperative. I get it. People are emotionally charged and want different conversations to take place. But we are running a business. So how do we bring those two together so that all factions feel good? And in the end, Joel, I'm telling them, you can measure my efficacy by three things: Employee engagement, increases in productivity, and positive attrition. That's exactly what I say to him. Employee engagement, increase productivity, and positive attrition. Torin, what do you mean by positive attrition? I wanna be able to identify the pockets in the organization where we have incredible leaders that are historically accustomed to developing people, inspiring resourcing and supporting their people, and those individuals decide that they wanna take something else on in the organization. They don't leave, they wanna grow inside of the company. Torin Ellis: So I wanna identify those leaders in the organization, those are leaders who are for me, I am absolutely looking at, well, what's the representation numbers looking like? Because if I know that Joel is an incredible leader but he doesn't have any diversity, okay, so then let me help Joel get some more diversity on his organization, he can continue to be that incredible leader, and he will be a thrust for pushing people in the organization. How does Torin do that? If Torin's a great leader but he doesn't have any diversity or representation, how do we help him in that regard so that he can bring people in, inoculate them in his system, and help them positively grow in the organization? Three ways that we can absolutely, measure the efficacy of D&I. Joel: So my comment would be... I wasn't expecting that to be your answer, that things are improving and getting better. So my follow-up question would be, it sounds like you're confident that this isn't, I guess, a form of tokenism, just a way to say, "Hey, we are embracing this." You feel like this is real genuine change that companies wanna make from your perspective? Torin Ellis: Not feel like, I know it is. Because I signed six-figure deals. Joel: That's great. [applause] Torin Ellis: And I don't mean it as a minor flex, but I use it as an example. There is absolutely no way, when people reach out to me, "Well, Torin, can you do an engagement for 15 or 20K?" No, can't do it. Joel: Yep. Torin Ellis: I charge that much for speaking. So if you want me to actually come in to your organization and serve as a fractional or virtual chief diversity officer... Because that in many ways is what I'm doing. I'm either fractional, I'm virtual, or at the bare minimum, I'm complimentary to whatever is currently in place. If you want me to do that, then you're going to pay something similar to what you would pay a person doing this work full-time. Because I'm building it into the organization, so that when I do walk away, even in that man they... Where I use "shit" at the top of the conference call, trust me, [laughter] they are further along today than they were two years ago when they started working with me. And I'm confident in where they are today versus where they were two years ago. So you will absolutely make an investment. So to me, there is no question as to whether or not they are just box checking or if they are serious about the investment VMA. Joel: That's fucking great. Chad: The beautiful part is that you're attracting... These are the companies really that you're attracting, right? These are the ones who really want to make a change. Okay? That's not everybody. The question is, because there are a lot of companies who they just wanna step back, they don't wanna be in any political target area whatsoever, right? And you've heard a lot of the DEIB change into, "Well, let's just drop the diversity and just focus on inclusion, equity, and... " Is that a path forward? Is that a way to hopefully get away from some of these wokeism bullshit narratives, and just focus on getting shit done? Because you are dealing with a crème de la crème of companies who give a shit, right? What about all those that maybe they do, but they're afraid because they don't know what to do? What do they do? Torin Ellis: Yeah. So I will say, and I'll catch some flack for this because I've caught it in the past. Two years ago or last year, 2023, my objective when I was on stage, Chad, was to not say the phrase "diversity and inclusion." Chad: Okay. Torin Ellis: That was my team. My team said as we were doing speech prep, "Can you make it through the year, stand on stage, be the influencer that you are in this space, and not use the phrase D&I?" And I did. I was able to do it far less. It was a precipitous drop in my using that phrase. That being said, everything that I do is still focused on that theme of D&I or humanity that I mentioned in the beginning, and so I am not really a six in one hand, half-a-dozen in another. If an organization wants to change the acronym and add a J to the end, fine. If the organization wants to drop the D and only talk about inclusion and belonging, I'm fine with that. I don't care. If I genuinely know where they're coming from, their position, that's what matters to me. Torin Ellis: I think that we can get to where we need to be in terms of working with that muscle, getting that courage, being more bold and authoritative in the marketplace, being able to stand up to their geographic, regional, state-wide politicians or others that be. If we have to take a step back to be able to begin making progress, then so be it. I'm not worried about letters, I'm worried about us making progress. Chad: So is that so that you could separate yourself from the performative? Because just using the acronym doesn't mean anything. It's all about outcomes, right? We've talked about this over the years, is that there have been millions of dollars, in some cases, like Facebook, put millions of dollars into a program, they got nothing out. Right? There were no outcomes. We saw a lot of CDOs, chief diversity officers who were hired who had no resources, no staff, they could do nothing. They were pretty much just a figure head that was there, who knows what for, right? That all felt incredibly performative. Is that your way of stepping, pushing yourself away from the table and say, "This is way too performative, we've gotta focus on outcomes?" Torin Ellis: Yeah, so let me just say this to you. In March of 2019, Russell Reynolds put out a report, and I'm butchering the title of the report. It's "Finding your Next Chief Diversity Officer." And in that report... And I'm doing this purposefully, I'm not trying to get the part in any trouble, but I'm making a point. Russell Reynolds in that report said that most chief diversity officers are under-funded and under-resourced. Okay, cool. That was no surprise. What pissed me off is, organizations will continue to give that $400, $500 million retained executive search firm, diversity-related searches, they still get a pass on not providing diversity in the pipeline or under consideration. Torin Ellis: So we're talking multi-million dollar search assignments, and here we are writing a report saying that CDOs are under-resourced and under-funded, yet they are not holding themselves to a higher standard to support the diversity efforts inside of these organizations where they are taking diversity-related assignments. Not just an open rec, a diversity-related assignment. So the problem that we have is, we don't have enough accountability. We gotta have accountability with the vendors. We have to have accountability with our internal staff. And one of the things that I said is, it needs a decorative statement from a CEO, it needs a willingness of that CEO to reallocate resources, and then we need to hold people accountable. Leadership needs to be held accountable. Torin Ellis: And the bonus of that, whenever I go into an engagement, if you wanna see D&I change in your organization, all you have to do is ask every employee across the franchise, what did you do to support the CEOs a diversity initiative? And like you said, some are gonna be like, "I did this." Or someone gonna say, "I tried that." Or others are gonna say, "I didn't do anything. I didn't give a damn. I didn't care. I wanna do nothing. I don't care about it." Cool. If you care about your job, if you care about that company, your leadership, that relationship, I don't believe that people will year after year after year say that, "I didn't do anything." I believe that if you are around something long enough, you eventually, Joel, will begin to open and express your growth in that way, something that I saw you do from 2018 up until now. While you may have been a person who cared about D&I in 2015 '16, '17 and '18, and may have been silent about such or not as vocal about such, you are a totally different person now in that tenure, that tone, that amplification in 2024. Six years. Chad: We're so proud of that, yeah. [overlapping conversation] Torin Ellis: So when you are around something, you will eventually show that you care about that something. So I think that's what we're... We're missing the accountability piece. Chad: I'd say on the show, we're proud. We're proud of seeing the... Joel: I thought the growth was only in my waist line, but I appreciate that. [laughter] So I'm curious. So currently, a recently high-profile people like Elon Musk and Mark Cuban have been going back and forth on the DEI argument. Just curious, from your perspective, when you see high-profile people debating this, do you think, "What a bunch of knuckleheads looking for attention?" Or do you feel like at least there's some light being shown on this issue, and at least people are talking about it? I'm just curious of your perspective when Mark Cuban and Elon Musk go out and about this topic. Torin Ellis: Yeah, I appreciate you actually bringing that example up from a few months back. I don't look at it with a side eye, let me just say that. I tend to look at the essence of what's being exchanged and to kinda quickly determine whether or not people are genuinely doing what or saying what they... What is being said. In that case, I felt like both of them were genuine. Elon does not really support D&I, and I've gotten that both through his efforts and through friends that you and I both know that have consulted with the Tesla organization. So I know firsthand or very close to firsthand that he doesn't care. On the flip side, Mark Cuban, he had to have a couple of wake-up calls. Joel: Yeah. Torin Ellis: It took some wakeup calls for him to understand, "Wow, wait a minute, I need to do and say a bit more inside of my at least Dallas Maverick organization." So here's the deal though. In that example between Cuban and between Musk, there was this pastor on the South Side of Chicago, the pastor's name was Corey B. Brooks. And I'm gonna paraphrase what he said. He said, "It's beautiful that Mark Cuban is sticking up for D&I but the truth of the matter is that, I don't see D&I being applied to any of the young people that I'm supporting on the South Side of Chicago." Joel: Yeah. Torin Ellis: And he went on in a very long thread just simply said, "I feel like it's a hot air balloon. It's a lot of people grandstanding and talking, but they're not coming to the South Side of Chicago and working with these young people that I'm working with, to introduce them to opportunities, skill development, potential places of employment, mentor-ship, resources. They're not showing up here." So there is a flip side to the conversation. Yes, we love when the celebrities or high-flying corporate titans getting engaged in the conversation. But I also don't want us to forget the least among us where this conversation should be having some efficacy and impact. Joel: I'm gonna let you out on this. It's February, which is Black History Month. What does the month mean to you, and what would you like to say to two White guys like us in terms of how we should look at and think about Black History Month? Torin Ellis: Well, the month means everything to me because the woman who is my mother, a person who loves me, her birthday is Valentine's Day. So this is one of my favorite months of the year. It just so happens that it has some other dimensions, one of which is to include Black History Month. Listen, it's 28 days. It is what it is. I can never wake up and not acknowledge who I am and the dimensions in which I bring to this thing called life. Whether that be bad or good, whether I'm inside of a corporate quarter or sitting inside of a community, walking through a mall, relaxing in a park. I can never forget the fact that I am who I am, and I bring this with me. Sometimes that's good. Sometimes it's a laborious thought. Sometimes it's heavy. Sometimes I'm operating and moving with a bit of apprehension and fear. Torin Ellis: So what I would share to you as two White men is to just simply know that that's how it is for me. It may not be that way for other friends that you have, or whatever the case would be. I just want you two to show up and remember what I always have said: Potential minus interference equals results. When you look at the problems that we are facing, the both of you and others that are listening, when you look at the problems that we are facing, what's your potential to make a difference? Sure, you may have some interference, some roadblocks and things that are in the way. How do we get them to fuck out of the way so we can make some results? P minus I equals R. Chad: Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, this is a big shout-out to momma Ellis, by the way. Big shout-out, birthday shout-out to momma Ellis. Happy early birthday. Torin, we appreciate you coming on the show. As always, always love to having your voice around. If somebody wants to connect with you, they wanna find out what you're doing, where would you send them? Torin Ellis: @TorinEllis across all of social media, and on the web TorinEllis.com. Really simple. Joel: Love it. Chad: Love it, my man. Love it. Joel: Thank you, Torin. Chad, another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Well, thank you for listening to, what's it called? The Podcast with Chad, with Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing, just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. With so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And why you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grub cheese. It's so weird. We out!

The boys are live from TA Week in the Qualifi booth dropping more commentary from the world of work. First up, the boys cover recent updates on Google for Jobs killing off their pay-per-click (PPC) pilot with employers and agencies. Then, HireVue has a new CEO - Jeremy Friedman, bringing his tech growth expertise to the company. HireVue specializes in candidate evaluation through video interviews, boasting over 1,000 customers. In CEO updates, rumors suggest Arno Schafer is out at Vonq, the job advertising platform. Now, let's dive into tech news - ADP has launched ADP Assist, a cross-platform solution powered by generative AI, revolutionizing HR productivity. Moving on, Twitter Jobs introduces featured job ads, giving verified organizations benefits like priority posts and premium support. Now, from Japan, Indeed Plus is automating job matching by distributing postings on various job boards within Recruit Holdings. Lastly, UPS is cutting 12,000 jobs, saving approximately $1 billion after a 31.8% drop in quarterly profit. UPS CEO Carol Tomé announces the end of the hybrid work schedule, requiring employees to return to the office five days a week. Plus, over 10,000 autoworkers from non-union companies have signed union cards with the UAW. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. Two guys who don't mind a little flying Dutchman on their plates and in their bellies. What's up kids? Chad: Amen. Joel: You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel "Animal-Style" Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad "Now I know what a flying Dutchman actually is" Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, Google doesn't want your budget. Twitter needs your budget and Indeed is apparently losing your budget. Let's do this. SFX: Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast. Joel: Just one of the hiccups... Chad: Things happen. Joel: That you get on a live show. It's all good. It's all good. It's all good. We restarted because we forgot to push to record. Chad: Yeah. We being me. Joel: Yeah, I was being nice. I was... Chad: I haven't had enough beer apparently. Joel: I got your back. Chad: Fuck. Joel: I got your back on that one. Chad: Thank you. Thank you. Joel: All right. All right, kids. Well, we are here live at TA week, and we are just having a great time here in the Qualified booth. The Qualified team based in Indie, like us, great startup story. Went to the zoo on Monday, saw koala bears, saw giraffes, saw elephants, all the things that you see at a zoo. Chad: But what you want to see at the zoo is you want to see your friends and you want to create content because it's all fun. It's all rich. Joel: Lots of content. Chad: And you want to be close to a bar. Joel: Yes. Chad: We had all this. We had all this. Joel: Mitch a lotta miracles were flowing. Chad: Mitch a lotta miracles. Joel: The zoo this week. Also, Chad, you see the magic of procreation at the zoo sometimes. [laughter] And we were lucky enough to see what we dubbed the banging wallabies, making more wallabies apparently. And we figured out that in our next life we're going to start a band called The Banging Wallabies, and we're going to hope to open up for the NXS reunion tour at sometime in the future. So that was great fun. What else have we done here in sunny San Diego? Chad: Well, once again with the Qualifi crew, and if you are watching on YouTube, you can see, not to mention all the alcohol that we have available, which is why we're doing this for a second time. Joel: We are lubricated. Yes, we are... Chad: Jesus Christ. Yes. No, we had a great, the first night zoo, went out to eat, had some gummies. Joel: Tio Leo's, if you're in San Diego, hit up Tio Leo's. Chad: Oh yes. If you like lounge singers. Oh, we're talking about top shelf lounge singers. Great food. Have a gummy while you're at it because it's good. Joel: And everyone gets their own little thing of salsa, which I appreciate. Chad: I do. Yes. Joel: I think I got yours at some point and maybe someone else's. Chad: I had no clue what was going on. Joel: [laughter] Yeah. You were in a state that would make Euro Chad look like a depressed patient in a mental institution. Man, you were... Chad: I was very Happy. Joel: You were walking on sunshine, my friend. Chad: I was, I was. Joel: Walking on sunshine. Chad: Then, then we were here. We did some interviews yesterday. Had a great day at TA week, I got to say. And you mentioned earlier, the food here is amazing. Okay. For conference food. Joel: The conference food, yeah. Chad: For conference food, this was above par, way above par. It wasn't a boxed lunch, it was nothing... It was really, it was good stuff. And the experience has been great too. It's not incredibly big. Joel: It's intimate. Chad: It's the right size. It's the right size. Joel: It's the right size, just like we like it. Yeah. Yeah. The lunches are a big thing for me. I say no to the croissant which if I can, it's never something on my list. I try to make it up for it with a bag of chips that usually come with it, but typically, typically, no. Chad: But you know what else is good? A good VIP sit down dinner where you sit down, you've got the Bourguignon. Joel: Steak, potatoes were brought in. Chad: [chuckle] And you've got the Merlot. You know what we did? We didn't do that. Joel: No. Chad: We did the In-N-Out Burger. Nice. Which is so on fucking brand, and I can't believe we hadn't thought about it earlier, but our friend Evan White and CollabWORK... Joel: CollabWORK Summer. Chad: They put it together and they're like, what would Chad and Cheese do? That we're going to get wristbands. What would Chad and Cheese do? Yes. Joel: That's a real homage to the show. What would Chad and Cheese do? Chad: So this is where we found out what the Flying Dutchman is. Now, the In-N-Out Burger has a secret menu. Your favorite secret menu is? Joel: My Off the menu would be the Double Double Chopped Peppers, protein style fries well done, Animal Style you can take it or to leave it. Chad: Okay. Okay. Joel: And that's my go-to. Chad: Okay. That sounds like a lot. Joel: I didn't know the Flying Dutchman existed. Chad: I didn't either until Omar, our buddy from Jar Pixel actually messaged me. He sent me a TikTok and showed me how they actually cook the burger in mustard, wrap it in cheese, and then put it around what goes around it. Not a bread bun. No. An onion. A cooked onion, caramelized goodness was delicious. I loved it. A little oniony for you. Joel: A little too much onion for me. My palate's are a little sensitive for that. Too much whiskey, I guess. But yeah. That was... Chad: That was great. Joel: A great time. Big thanks to CollabWORK. I did mention that if there is a hell for me, there was a Chipotle on the opposite corner of In-N-Out, and I said, "If there's a hell, I'm stuck in the center and I can't move. I just have to look at In-N-Out and Chipotle." Chad: There was a Del Taco next door. Joel: Del Taco and a Jersey Mike's at some point. So either my heaven or my hell, depending on how mobile I am. But yeah, that was some San Diego goodness in the QSR category, I love it. Chad: Day 2 we're back doing interviews, having a good time. Tonight we'll go do dinner. I mean, it's been... Joel: Yeah, bonfire last night. Chad: Oh yeah, bonfire. Joel: What's more California than a beach bonfire? Chad: On the beach with beers and weed? I mean, it's just like you just can't get away from the weed. Joel: Yeah. The kids on bikes and skateboards is very California. It's sun setting in the background. Very, very, very nice. Chad: Amazing. Amazing. Joel: Well, almost as good as a bonfire on the beach in San Diego is free stuff from Chad and Cheese. Kids, if you haven't gone out to chadcheese.com, click the free link. We're talking shirts from our friends at JobGet, soon to be a new sponsor, by the way, Chad. Chad: What? Joel: We'll announce that soon, I think. Chad: Oh, damn. Joel: Aspen Tech Labs is giving away free beer if it's your birthday month. Rum from our friends at Plum could be in your hands. And of course, a bourbon selection from both you and me sponsored by TextKernel. That to me is just manna from heaven. If you can get a Blockbuster style Chad selection and a Cheese selection in your... [laughter] Joel: In your bar, you are a happy happy, person. Chad: It's like The manager selection at the Blockbuster. Joel: Totally. Chad: Yeah. No, totally is. So I've got some breaking news real quick for events. Joel: Okay. Chad: Are you ready? Joel: Hit it. Chad: So Jamie Leonard reached out. Thanks, Jamie. Appreciate it my man. Joel: Can you say Jamie Leonard in a British accent? Chad: No. Joel: No. Okay. Chad: I can't say anything in a British accent. So September 12th and 13th. That's right. Two days kids, confirmed for Bicentennial Park in Nashville. Yes. We're going back to Nashville. Joel: NashVegas baby. Chad: Fucking Nashville. Anywhere from 2000 to 2,500 TA pros. And you gotta remember, this is an entirely different animal from all the other events. Joel: Sure. Chad: Good, bad, or indifferent. Doesn't matter. This one is really attuned to have teams have your all-day event there, right? Joel: Yep. Chad: You have your bonding, your team building event. You need an easy button for that? It's called RecFest. Joel: Yep. Chad: Not to mention Nashville. I mean, come on. Joel: And there's Nashville after the show. Chad: Yes. Joel: And you and I, I don't know. We tied one on last year. We had a party. We had a bookend of parties before and after. Chad: Yes, yes. Joel: We'll try to replicate that. I think that you and I should both be considering our karaoke song of choice. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Joel: For those that know or don't know, your choice this past conference was... Chad: Michelle from Palm and I we're gonna have to retool. Yeah. We did B-52s. We did Love, Shaq. We're gonna have to see what the next is in line. Joel: You're gonna do another duo? Another duet. Chad: I think we have to. I think we have to. I think we owe the people. [laughter] Joel: You owe the people. You owe the people. Well, I went with the Vanilla Ice. Chad: Yes. Ice Ice Baby, yeah. Joel: Ice Ice Baby. So, that's gonna be hard to top. I kind of brought the house down with that one 'cause no one, no one Running Man's like a... Chad: Say you do Informer. Joel: Oh, snow. Chad: Yes. Joel: 12 inches of cheese. That'll be the extras. Oh, boy. Yeah. So that's exciting. September. We have a full packed tour this year. And it's just getting fatter and fatter. Chad: Good times. Joel: As we go through the show. So we're gonna skip birthdays. Chad: Okay. Joel: We'll make up for that. We're gonna skip future travel, I think February we're off so we get some time to kind of catch our breath. Chad: Yeah, I believe so. Joel: And then March is full on, skip some of our extra shows. Do make sure to go to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/@ChadCheese for all of our video goodness. Some shows exclusively on YouTube. But let's get to topic. SFX: Topics Joel: Google for Jobs news. Chad: Yes. Joel: Now, you and I have been predicting for a while that Google was going to offer a pay-per-click solution, which makes perfect sense. They've got the engine built, they've got the market understanding what all that is. Chad: It's what they do. Joel: It's a switch to say, hey, we got these job postings. Hey, you want better exposure? You wanna be on the top of the list? Pay us per-per-click. And it's, it's magic happens. Chad: Seems like easy money. Joel: Well, timeout. Chad: What? Joel: You have multiple sources now telling you that the pay-per-click pilot program that was launched last year, has alerted people that the pay-per-click solution is now dead and buried. What do you have to add on that news item? Chad: This just makes so much sense. It's what Google does. Everything else that they were doing in the jobs space and ATS I mean, different types of APIs and whatnot, none of that shit made sense but this just made fucking sense. And then guess what? It doesn't matter if it made sense or not. They've been having issues with regard to being able, obviously reporting back to the market. They've seen some drops, I think 6% drop. All I can say is more than likely they said, okay, enough of that playing around shit over there on the job side. Leave the job thing rolling. But we need those engineers. We need those project people over on areas and projects we know are currently making money and can make more money. Joel: Yep. Little surprise from market perspective. Google, obviously, clicks are down. This to me was an easy sort of billion dollar ad. Chad: I thought so. Yeah. Joel: To the bottom line. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That they could easily do. Chad: Totally wrong. Joel: However, similar to Facebook a couple years ago saying, Hey, we're gonna commit everything to the metaverse. Of course they pivot off of that, but at the time they closed down their jobs offering to send all hands on deck to build a Metaverse platform. To me this is very similar in that, look. OpenAI is a threat, AI is a threat. It's everywhere. We need all hands on deck to focus on that. They've had multiple rounds of layoffs. Chad: Yep. Joel: Which means they're a little shorthanded. So from that perspective, it makes sense that they would focus more on the future than classified ads and making those monetizable. Chad: And shoutout to Job Board Doctor who actually said, "I don't see this happening." I mean, and again, that was a smart call. I have no fucking clue how he called it. But at the end of the day, this is what Google does. They do clicks. They do pay-per-click. They do. I mean, this is just what they do. Joel: Yeah. Chad: And they're not going to do what they do. Joel: Yeah. So there you go. There you go. Yeah. Chad: Interesting, interesting. Joel: But man, that is a happy dance moment for Indeed, ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn and many others who I'm sure have been fearing the inevitable pay-per-click solution from Google. So, yeah. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Shoutout to them for a little bit of relief on that front. Well, who won't be getting any relief are a couple companies that are inviting new CEOs and also saying goodbye to a CEO. HireVue has appointed Jeremy Friedman as their new CEO. He'll succeed Anthony Reynolds. Friedman, former CEO of Schoology brings expertise in tech growth. That's... Chad: Schoology. Schoology. Joel: Per the company. Schoology is how I read that. Schoology. Chad: It's okay. Yeah. We're gonna need... Joel: Okay. It case you missed it, HireVue specializes in evaluating candidates and matching skills to jobs through video interviews. They tout a thousand plus customers. And in other CEO news, we're saying goodbye to one. Rumor has it that Arno Schaefer is out at VONQ. He didn't get the shot apparently after serving in that role since 2021. If you don't know, VONQ is a job advertising and distribution platform as well as a recruitment marketing service. Chad, your thoughts on all things CEO this week? Chad: Yeah, Let's go ahead and hit Jeremy up real quick. I mean, this is a guy who has no experience in this space. If you know Schoology or Schoology or whatever. Joel: Schoology. Chad: Whatever the hell they call it. They're a part of the PowerSchool platform, actually. And PowerSchool always felt like, to me, because I used it with my kids to be able to talk back and forth, communicate with teachers and look at grades and all that stuff. It always felt like an early 2000s platform that was built just for the basics. Joel: Oh, it's built for Windows 95. It still is. Chad: Yes, just for the basics. And in one of the quotes that Jeremy actually said in the article, it might have been TechCrunch, I think, he thinks that there are easy parallels between education and HR. Joel: Sure. Chad: And just, that is the most naive bullshit I think I've ever... And I hope Jeremy does well. I really do. But here's the thing, kids. When we see these CEOs come into our industry who have no fucking clue what we actually do, it's really disturbing, right? And then you've got to ask yourself where they were in the draft. Right? Joel: Yeah. How many stars did they get in their ESPN analysis? Yeah, to me, this says, this is a crappy industry to be a CEO. These are not the A-teamers that are ready to go public, that are ready to be acquired. These are like the bottom of the barrel CEOs. And we looked at iSIMS. Okay, it may be a little mean, but my point is that these are not blue chip CEOs that are taking these jobs, which at a different time, there were more sort of top notch. Chad: Steve Lucas at iSIMS. I mean, that was fucking, that was... Joel: Yeah, they have track records of taking companies public or cashing out sort of big deals. The new iSIMS CEO, the new HireVue CEO, these are companies that should be prime for IPOs. These are companies that should be big acquisitions for really big fish. And these CEOs just do not instill a lot of confidence in me that that is their future. It feels more like, let's try to get to a point where we can get a top notch CEO. So I think it's just I hope that he's successful and we never, I don't think we ever, maybe some companies we hope they fail, but most of the time we want everyone to be successful. So, but this does not instill confidence in me as someone who's been around the block a few times. The more interesting story to me is the VONQ, the VONQ news. Chad: And we got a shot for that. So we're good. Joel: We did get a shot for that twice my sophomore year. And we talk a lot, particularly on the European show of how difficult it is to go from Europe, have a successful business in Germany, Denmark, wherever, and then say, we're just going to replicate that in America. And when VONQ came to our shores, they put together an incredibly solid team of veterans, guys that we've known for a long time. It was a very impressive start. I know that they had nailed down a few really solid partners and it collapsed very quickly. People left and we don't know all the intricacies of that, but it clearly underscores how tough it is to have something successful in Europe and then just stamp it in America. Even if you pay for the talent to make it work here. Chad: I think unfortunately the Dutch just weren't patient enough. So you get a Star-Spangled banner fucking crew over here in the US and they start kicking ass, building infrastructure, taking names. Then they start falling off the face of the earth and leaving because overall, they weren't patient enough to understand that trying to penetrate the United States is not going to happen over fucking night. Now, some of the partnerships that they had, to me, happened overnight. Were they generating revenue? Probably not where they needed to, but guess what? That shit takes fucking time. Education, especially market education, so much. They also dropped the ball with Indeed at one time where they stopped the distribution to Indeed because Indeed cut them off. Joel: Yeah. Probably too many eggs in that basket as well. Chad: Unfortunately, again, Arno not from this industry, right? He was a PE guy, so pretty much put in there to just man the ship and unfortunately, didn't have the patience to allow the professionals to do their fucking job. So right now I think what they should do is do one of two things. They either allocate the resources to do what they were originally going to do in the US and have patience or get the fuck out. You can only do one. You can't half ass this and they've been half assing it for at least a year now. Joel: Yeah, I think it's an interesting textbook case of do you bring Europeans over to America to manage things or do you hire Americans to coordinate with the Europeans? And there's obviously some loss in translation. There's challenges there on both sides, but it's not just putting the product in America and it works. There's the culture, there's the team, there's so many things that go into it. Chad: It's the same thing going to Europe. You can't have Americans going into Europe and thinking that that shit's going to work either. You've got to go native, okay? It's all there is to it. If you're going into Germany, you better have a German team. If you're going into the US, you better have a US team. And unfortunately, again, I think a lot of it has to do with patience and they just didn't have it. Either that or their burn rate was way too fucking high. They couldn't have the patience. Joel: Well, from my understanding, the European business is still pretty healthy. Do we know anything about a new CEO or an interim CEO at this point? Chad: So from my understanding and from messaging back and forth with the VONQ team, again, guys, I hope you get healthy and I hope you get your shit together man, 'cause I wanna see more competition in this market. But Bill Fischer, who literally, he's been working more like a CMO, 'cause he's been putting a lot of good shit out and he's incredibly smart. Joel: Yeah, he's been around. Chad: He's the CTO, okay. So a CTO to be good at marketing, that shit never happens. So they've got a fucking unicorn there. He's gonna head the ship until they actually put a person in place. What I would say is put Bill in fucking place, okay. The dude is a fucking veteran. Put him in place. Put Bill in place and give him some fucking rope. Joel: And hopefully he doesn't hang himself. Chad: Hang himself. Joel: All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about Twitter and Indeed. Imagine that. Chad: And we're on. Joel: And in case you missed it, we are back live at TA Week in beautiful San Diego recording from the Qualifi booth. Alright Chad, we've got some news from big industry players to all kind of rapid fire and sound off on. So ADP has launched ADP Assist, that's creative. A cross-platform solution powered by, you guessed it, generative AI. Enhancing HR productivity and decision-making. It uses ADP's extensive data set to provide actionable insights in various HR aspects and is currently in early release with a planned rollout for all clients this year. ADP Assist validates payroll, simplifies smart analytics, and offers human insights with an AI-based conversational interface. That's all per ADP. Chad, your thoughts on ADP Assist? Chad: Big shoutout to Jason in PR over at ADP. I appreciate you pushing this to me early, my friend. So we've talked about ADP in, with respect to generative AI, but it wasn't about having generative AI. Everybody's gonna fucking have it. Joel: Yep. Chad: ADP probably, let me think, no, more than likely has the biggest fucking data lake, data ocean that any of the systems that we know of that are out there. Joel: Outside the government. Chad: Yes. If they wanted to use, and they've got more up-to-date data than the government, it's very fast. If they wanted to utilize generative AI to help solve pay inequality, that would be the system to do it. That would be the system. If you were SENDIA right now, you would be working with them to be able to actually tap into that, right? What about learning and development? You know skills in the market, you know what's rising, you know what's falling, you know what kind of learning development kind of content to be able to serve up. ADP is doing that to, I mean, millions, millions of people, right? This to me is probably, and again, this press release was very fluffy and kind of like it wasn't... Didn't really have any... Joel: Sure. Very biased. Chad: But at the end of the day, as they dig into this, 'cause they had to put out a press release, I guarantee you, just 'cause everybody else is, but we've talked about this before. The secret sauce to all of this LLM is data. Nobody has more. Nobody has more. Joel: Yeah, I don't have much more to add to that. Everyone's going to do this. It depends on what you feed the beast that makes it powerful or not, and ADP for sure has a formidable set of data. My question would be, is this a potential new revenue stream for them to have an API where they can feed an ecosystem of this data and what they're finding out to then feed startups or feed solutions that we talk about regularly on the show? I think this could be a whole new business opportunity for them to unleash AI and their data. Did I say unleash? Sorry. Chad: Unleash. I love it. That's good. That was good. That's good. Joel: Don't be too hyperbolic there, but yeah, I think this is an incredible opportunity. We typically do not see this kind of innovation from a company like ADP. It's a huge Titanic and turning that and doing things. It took them forever to have a marketplace. It's taken them forever to do so much. So I think this is really inspiring and the leadership team should be applauded by having this. My question will be, do they take it to another step and help power all the startups and companies that could utilize their data in a unique way with generative AI? Chad: Yeah. So from my insights and what I know, they're going to go big on this, right? This is literally just the surface. They're scratching the surface and because they realize much like our dumbasses realize that the secret sauce is data and nobody has more data than they do. So whether they have a marketplace with APIs or what have you, I think at the end of the day, if they just solely focus on the fragments of data that they can crunch with generative AI, they're gonna be able to come up with product after product after a data point for the government. Joel: Sure. Chad: They're gonna be able to do things that nobody else can. Joel: Yeah. Very impressive. Very impressive. All right. From ADP to your favorite company, let's talk about X. Chad: X. That's Twitter. That's twitter. Joel: Well, yeah. Twitter, X, whatever. I don't know. Friend of the podcast, Alex Joukowsky has an update on X- jobs. They apparently introduced featured job ads. This feature launched on January 26th. Display sponsored jobs at the top of the search results with a blue featured icon. Verified organizations get benefits like a verified badge, priority posts, premium support and monitoring per impersonation. Very innovative, right, Chad? What are your thoughts? Chad: As stupid as shit. We've talked about this and they were talking about rolling this out months ago. This is fucking stupid. Nobody, nobody. Listen, listen, nobody is going to manage their fucking jobs on Twitter. They're not. You know why, 'cause they don't have time. As we talk about talent acquisition, we talk about recruiters, we talk about all the way down. Nobody has enough time. They've got enough administrative bullshit they have to deal with and yet you want them to go into their list of thousands of fucking jobs and say, this is featured and that, fuck off. This is the stupidest shit. It's stupid, man. And again, this demonstrates that a dude that obviously who can sell companies, Lasky, the CEO of Lasky, is throwing out shit to hit 1990s version job board shit. It's horrible. Joel: While I agree with you, we're also here at a conference that sessions are being highlighted that are still talking about pay-per-click advertising on Google. Chad: No, you're right. I agree. Joel: Something that I remember doing 20 years ago. So if you're categorizing this buying audience as it's got to be innovative or else I'm not buying it, it may be smart to go back to 1999 with your strategy. It may be smart... Chad: But they can't manage it. But they can't manage it. Joel: To keep it simple for the people. The challenge is this is never gonna go enterprise. This is never gonna go big scale. Chad: It can't. It can't. Joel: This is your Y Combinator companies. This is the startup that's gonna be like, oh, we can be on X. That's who this appeals to. There's no way at its current iteration that's gonna be big enterprise companies, marketing departments won't touch X, their job departments aren't going to touch it either. I say they, it's fine. It's low-hanging fruit. They'll get some money from it. Nowhere near the 44 billion that they need. I think in our time here at the conference, their time is much better utilized by going against LinkedIn. There's a lot of animus against LinkedIn at this conference. Chad: There is. There is. Joel: A lot of people want choices, want something else. And if nothing else, at least maybe they'll push in LinkedIn to be more innovative by creating products that might threaten them because LinkedIn is fat, happy and just printing money based on its current iteration. But no, in the same podcast we have Google for Jobs is not doing pay-per-click. But X is giving you sponsored jobs. I think it's a lose-lose for the industry. Chad: Oh, God. Joel: And for most employers out there. Chad: It's horrible. It's horrible. Joel: Well, from X, let's go to Indeed. So sign of things to come possibly. Chad: I know that dude. Joel: Indeed Japan has introduced Indeed Plus, an AI powered tool to expedite job matching by automatically distributing job postings on various job boards within its parent company Recruit Holdings, also known as programmatic advertising. I believe employers can connect with recruit's AirWORK Applicant Tracking System or Indeed for automatic postings and charges are based on a pay-per-click model. Yes. You guessed it. Indeed Plus aims to diversify collaborations with job boards outside of recruit group in the future, hoping to enhance job seeking and recruiting efficiency in Japan, possibly elsewhere in the near future. Chad, what are your thoughts on Indeed Plus? Chad: Back to the future, kids. It's funny because back in my direct employer days, we actually had like over 3000 different distribution points, meaning job sites. And we would get jobs directly from corporate career sites and we would own net, code them, classify them, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Because what we did was we did dynamic distribution of jobs that were just relevant to those sites. These guys, what, three sites that they're doing this with? Joel: Well, it's a small, it's a rollout that will take some time, Chad. Chad: It's a rollout. It's a rollout. But I mean, this is 2008 shit, Twitter, this, it's all 2008 shit. Joel: Sure. We talked about this with their tech group. Chad: We just talked ADP with generative AI and we're talking about this. Joel: Imagine that. Yeah. The Titanic and the... Chad: Fuck. Joel: Aircraft carrier is doing innovation that the smaller guys aren't. So we talked about Indeed launching their tech network. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I've already heard rumblings about healthcare being piloted or starting. Their salespeople are starting to talk about. The whole network are jobs on other platforms and sites, destination sites, et cetera. It is a very old strategy. To me it's an indication of what Google and the four apocalypse, the four horsemen, the apocalypse as you know. Chad: Horsemen, the horsemen. Joel: Are stressing the business that is Indeed. And this is another way I think, is the traffic really gonna matter? I doubt it. Can they sell something new? Yes. So if I'm a salesperson, I'm on the horn with technical companies talking about our tech network. If I'm selling healthcare, I'm saying, "Hey, we're launching a health network." And these companies will pay money, they'll pay, the check will get bigger. It's like a price increase at Netflix, people are just gonna pay it. [laughter] And this thing that launched in Japan is gonna launch in America at some point. They'll just have these sites and people will, they'll bump up their spend and Indeed will make more money at the easiest way possible. No innovation. Let's just have like this smokescreen of innovation and new networks and new exposure for your jobs. And it's all a bunch of bullshit, but it has been very effective in the past and it will probably be very effective to Indeed's bottom line going into the future, in no small part to Indeed saying no to pay-per-click advertising. Maybe there was a secret deal by Indeed that said, look, we'll spend so much money on Google ads if you just not launch a pay-per-click solution. That's a conspiracy theory. I have no information on that. I need a refill. Let's take a quick break and we'll talk about some union news. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Alright, gang, we are back. We are here live from the TA week conference in sunny San Diego, California, podcasting from the Qualifi booth right here in the expo hall. We've got beers, we've got whiskey, and we're coming to the end of our show. Hopefully we can still make it. Chad: Woo. God. I hope so. Joel: Got to. Chad: It's about time for a gummy. Joel: I need something. I need a Flying Dutchman or something to get me through. Alright. Some union news to talk about, United Parcel Service, popularly known as UPS, Chad, is set to cut 12,000 jobs affecting 14% of its 85,000 full and part-time managers. The move comes after a 31.8% drop in quarterly profit and rising costs from the company's contract with the Teamsters Union, which we talked about at length last year. The layoffs are expected to save UPS approximately $1 billion. Additionally, UPS CEO, Carol Tome, I don't know if she's related to Marissa Tomei or not, different spelling, so probably not announced the end of the hybrid work schedule. That's right. She's requiring employees to return to the office, not four, not three, but five days a week starting in March. This is a double, double trouble news item for a lot of workers at UPS. Chad, what are your thoughts on the news? Chad: Marissa's older sister, she makes about $19 million in total of compensation a year. And this is happening, number one. Number two, we saw Shawn Fain not just get behind Biden last week, but also sign 10,000 new members into the UAW. This, to me, this is easy. If I'm Shawn Fain, UAW expands. Joel: Yep. Chad: And goes right into UPS. I mean, this is finally a time where the narrative of the working class is starting to rise and it's not being beat down. If you talk about Tome's $19 million a year and all these guys who are now out of work, you're gonna receive amazing favor and the next thing you know, you have a UAW or whatever version shop that happens in UPS. There are expansion opportunities with UAW. Shawn Fain is the man to do it. I'm a lover. I love that dude. Joel: Somewhere Jimmy Hoffa is smiling in his grave over the Shawn Fain. Chad: Anyway, it's, to me, it just makes sense. The stars are starting to align and Tome doing these things and other CEOs doing these things, they're not paying attention to the market and what the fuck's going on. Joel: So, some context around Chad's news on the autoworkers. So, over 10,000 autoworkers from 13 non-union companies have signed union cards with the UAW, signaling a growing movement for improved wages, benefits and workplace rights in the auto industry. Following the UAW's success, stand up striked at Ford, GM and Stellantis. Non-union autoworkers are organizing unions across the industry with workers at Volkswagen and Mercedes, to name a few, leading the campaigns. The UPS news is really unfortunate because last year we talked about their union having a victory, in terms of wages, benefits, and things going on. We recently talked to Kevin Wheeler, obviously, an old timer in this industry that's seen a few things. His comment has really resonated with me that unions that are winning these cases are on a five-year parole, I think was his comment. Chad: Short term. Short term. Yeah. Joel: So, companies are buying time. Enjoy the money while you can until we automate you and get to cut you. And we're starting to see some of that potentially with UPS making the deal and then taking a counter punch and saying, we're going to lay off 14%. Chad: We're in January. They made that deal last year when they needed those motherfuckers in the seats. It's gonna come back around full circle. They're going to need people back in the seats again. Joel: Yeah. I mean, there's nothing that says self-driving cars and trucks are coming. There's nothing saying... Now, maybe the packages and managing those can be more automated, but drones aren't gonna fly and give you packages anytime soon. Chad: No. Joel: So, this is a really interesting new story. I don't know if it's... I mean, to save a billion dollars on this is pretty significant. I believe the stock benefited from the news, which makes Marissa Tomei's sister very happy. Shawn Fain again, just amazing what he's doing. Chad: Even if he goes arm-in-arm with Teamsters. Joel: Yeah. To get UPS into the battle with the car companies and who else can join this fight is significant. And we talked, we interviewed recently where having a union was like the only sort of strength that the workforce had to make changes. So, you and I continue to root for the unions. The UPS news is definitely depressing on that front, but the UAW news is definitely inspiring. This is a push and pull between capital and labor, and we'll see who wins at the end of the day. Chad: Without labor, you don't have capital. Joel: We don't know who's gonna win, but we do know, Chad, that you and I continue to win because we've got a cooler full of beer and a bottle full of bourbon, my friends. Live from TA week, the Qualifi booth, Chad. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Chase podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch Big Booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful trainwreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

It's a Chad-less week, as Serge Boudreau of The Recruitment Flex podcast fills in. We've got some follow-up from last week's show: Google unexpectedly shut down its job-advertising test due to performance issues, leaving speculation about staffing cuts and competing priorities. In other news, Appcast analysis shows an increase in clicks and applies per job posting in 2023, but the median cost per click fell. Moving on, Fora, an Executive Relationship Management platform, has launched with $3.8 million in pre-seed funding. Featuring industry veterans like Joe Essenfeld and Susan Vitale, Fora aims to revolutionize decision-making for executives with tailored AI technology. Lyft is making waves in the U.S. ride-hailing industry with weekly earnings guarantees for drivers, aiming to attract more to its platform amidst competition with Uber. Starship Technologies has secured $90 million to expand sidewalk delivery robot operations, while the NYPD ends its AI-driven security robot deployment in Times Square. And guess who's back? NYPD's K9 robot Digidog returns to service. Lastly, Apple's Vision Pro VR headset disappoints buyers as it blocks access to VR porn. Despite anticipation, users can't access explicit content, sparking frustration on social media and Reddit. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with the breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah, because you can't spell NAFTA without T and A. What's up kids? You are listening to The Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Putin Cheeseman. Serge: And I'm Serge The Raging Acadian Boudreau. Joel: And on this episode, Google pulls out, Lyft puts out, and Apple wants to sell you a $3,500 chastity belt. Let's do this. [music] Joel: You're not Chad. You're not Chad. Serge: I'm way better looking. Way better looking, and I have hair. Joel: You hair and a great pair of glasses. Yeah. You're... This feels way too familiar almost to me, almost to me. So... Serge: But does it? Joel: So yes, for those listening, we have a stand-in for Chad. Chad is getting shoulder surgery. He's worked it too much in his lifetime. I won't go into how that happened, but Serge Boudreau from the Recruitment Flex Podcast has graced us with his presence. Serge, for those that don't know you or the Flex, like give them a quick little synopsis. Serge: Yeah, so well, thanks for having me on, and yes, my name is Serge Boudreau, I am the co-host of the Recruitment Flex with Shelley. Shelley is really the brains and the power behind this podcast, but I'm here, you know I'm joining. So a little bit about me. I am a girl dad, three daughters, including two identical twins, and I'm also the vice president at a Canadian company called CareerBeacon. Joel: Did you say Canadian? SFX: Take off will ya we're doin' our movie! Don't wreck our show, you hoser! Joel: That's right. That's right. So... Serge: That's right. Well, you're Canadian too, Joel. Like you married into Canada. Joel: Only the nice parts are Canadian. Only the nice parts. Yeah, I have learned more about Canada and your wonderful country than I ever thought that I ever would. Yeah, Strange Brew was basically... And the occasional hockey playoff game, I'd say, and CFL. I'm old enough to remember when ESPN had CFL games on a regular basis and didn't have NFL. Serge: Really? Joel: So The Argonauts and... Yeah, I remember watching that way back, way back. But the Recruitment Flex, if they haven't listened, what can they expect to get from that? Serge: So we've been doing the Recruitment Flex over 300 episodes right now, and the focus is really on the practitioner, someone that is doing the job on a daily basis. We do a little bit of industry, but industry knowledge, this is the podcast The Chad & Cheese, we're for the practitioners with a little bit of industry stuff just blended in. Joel: I gotta ask about the name. How did you get... Like flex, I think a weight lifter, I think like tough guys and Shelley's everybody's mom. So she's like the least flex that I... She's not flex at all, and I know you personally, I'm guessing you're like 165, all wet. So Recruitment Flex, well, how did that come about? Serge: You know what our first title or the first one we came up, it was actually called Slain Recruitment, and I did not know what slain meant until I started running that title with people younger and I'm like... And they lost their shit. They laughed at it, so we decided to move to the Flex and it was just like we tried 100 different names, and it's just flexing your recruitment knowledge, that was what's behind the name, and even though 165 is actually generous Joel, I do have quite the biceps when I flex, so I think it goes pretty well with myself. Joel: Is that right? Ooh, okay. Serge: That is right. Joel: You wouldn't notice it with the eight layers of Canadian winter clothing that you're sporting now, so I'll have to take your word for it. Serge: Fair enough. Joel: Now, some of our listeners, they're gonna miss Chad. They're not gonna like appreciate that he's not on, but you have been kind enough to do like a 12-second synopsis of what Chad is like on a weekly basis for those listeners that are gonna miss Chad, like why don't you hit them with that and we can get on with the show. Serge: Sounds good. Elon Musk is a douche, indeed is devil. Everyone should join the union, even the robots. And something about Josh Bersin. Did I, did I get it? Joel: I think you nailed it my friend. I think you... We could just stop recording now, I think for most of our people, however, gotta do a show because we have this thing called the sponsor, so let's get to something that we call shout-outs. Now, you are my guest, so I'm going to let you go first in the shout-outs. Serge: You know what? I'm gonna start a shout-out from, for Joel Cheeseman yourself. Joel: You can't brown-nose me that fast on the show, my friend. Serge: No, I'm not brown-nosing you. Joel: Okay. Serge: Wait. Listen here. So we recently did a listener survey on the Recruitment Flex podcast, and I personally got some really interesting feedback, and here is some of it. "Whenever Serge talks, I feel IQ points leaving my body." [laughter] Serge: "Chad and Cheese are the shit. Have them on more. Also, hockey isn't a real sport." The next one, "Dump Serge, free Shelley." Then you had to add the. Uh. So I had to do some investigative reporting here and pretty sure that was you Joel. And I'll tell you... Joel: What? Serge: When I first saw it, it really hurt my feelings. I think I started crying, but then I figured out who it was. So first shout-out to Joel Cheeseman. I appreciate the feedback. Although it's... Joel: I love it. I love it. Serge: It's bullying, man. It's bullying. Joel: If you only knew how many drams of scotch I had before filling that out. I had some good fun. It was during the holidays, right? It was kind of holiday... Serge: It was, yeah. Joel: End of your thing. Okay. Yeah. I had fun with that. All right. My first shout-out goes to podcasts, oddly enough. It was a good week for podcasts. I don't know if you saw the news. So a quick rundown, Spotify has crossed the 600 million active user mark, and they were the first to kind of really dig into exclusive podcast and getting people onboard, which leads me to my next little news item. Joe Rogan regards to how you feel about him politically, and I know that Canadians have pretty strong opinions about politics, the guy can certainly market a podcast, and Spotify has upped his contract to $250 million. Not to be outdone, the SmartLess Crew, which features at least one Canadian, Will Arnett and probably one honorary Canadian, at least one other that's around that show. I don't listen a SmartLess. Do you? Serge: No. I've listened to it once, but no. I am a fan of Joe Rogan. I definitely... Joel: Yeah. Serge: I grew up with Howard Stern. Howard Stern is really hard to listen to now. Joe Rogan, there is some episodes that are great, some are not, but I gotta give him kudos. He's giving this podcast industry... Joel: Yeah. Well, I... Serge: A massive boost. Joel: I hope he's sending you a check, 'cause he's getting a really big one for the people who listen to the show. Anyway, the SmartLess guys SiriusXM, which I didn't even know is still a thing, although my last new car was in 2017, so how would I know, but they're giving those guys a three-year deal, I believe at $100 million. So podcasts are having a great week, and I think it's obviously good for the industry as a whole. We have sponsors, of course, as do you. I have strong opinions as to why podcasts are a great choice to sponsor. With us, both of us, I think it's not about the numbers. We're not selling Casper mattresses, we're selling trust, we're selling our expertise and not doing business and sponsorship deals with hacks and fly-by night software companies, and I think our listeners appreciate the perspective that we give. So podcasts, great mediums, and this week showed that there's money, there's money in podcasting, so shout out to the podcasts. Serge: All right. Perfect. Well, my second shout-out is a Canadian crooner, so Michael Bublé, famous Canadian singer was at the NHL All-Star game this week, and he was like a team captain, like celebrity team captain. And he went to a press conference, high as fuck on mushrooms, and it was so evident, even though he admitted it during the press conference, but then tried to retract after... It was funny 'cause he was on stage with Will Arnett, we were just talking about. I don't know if you've seen it, but definitely go check it out because it is hilarious. I love me some NHL and some celebrities that are high as fuck. Joel: Check it out everybody. Check it out. So the All-Star game was this weekend, did you watch... I watched some of the skills thing... McDavid is a monster. He's really impressive. What were your thoughts as a Canadian? Is hockey on the up trend? Are you happy about its place where it is? What's going on? Serge: Yeah, I'm really happy where it is right now, obviously, my team, the Montreal Canadians are not very good, but to your point, and I'm gonna put out something and I want to get your opinion. McDavid is the best professional athlete out there. There is no one in their sports that dominates as much as Connor McDavid, and you saw him live. You notice him more than any other athlete on the ice, and that's pretty rare for most sports. So McDavid, huge fan, even though I'm not a fan of the Edmonton Oilers, he's just such a beast. So hockey is doing well. I think what we're gonna see in hockey is they're talking about approximately six more US expansion teams, which is driving a lot of Canadians crazy. Joel: And none of them in Québec City, which is a crime, in my perspective. [chuckle] Serge: It is a crime. It is. Joel: I probably disagree with McDavid, but I don't see enough of him. The real tragedy is he's in Alberta, he's in a mountain time zone, and he plays a sport that most Americans could leave or give a shit about. So... Serge: Yeah. Joel: I can't speak, but we see a lot of really good athletes here in America in a variety of sports, but I'll take your word for it. He is definitely built differently, as you know, I was at a Canadiens game a few weeks ago, and they're just, guys, when you watch in person, Ovechkin, I told you was like this, LeBron is like this. If you've ever seen these guys, they're just built differently, they're just chiseled out of a different piece of rock. I mean they are monsters, and he is one of those guys. Now, Bedard, I can't imagine you think you're high on him. I know he's like 12, but I haven't seen him, but I guess he's a similarly impressive guy. Serge: He's very impressive, but he's definitely not Connor McDavid. He's a lot smaller too. Like you've got, Connor McDavid has all the skills, but also has size, and he's proven it. Like his like 150 points in the NHL is unheard of. Like in the days of Wayne Gretzky, it wasn't, but these days, it's really odd. I see Connor Bedard as a superstar, and I think it's great for Chicago, but I don't see it... Joel: No, not that level. Serge: I don't see him at the level of Connor McDavid, not even close. Who's the guy in NFL? Like who is that beast in the NFL that you're like, they're built differently. Joel: NFL's tough, 'cause it's a different... Like I can say, Patrick Mahomes is an incredible athlete. And it's true. Josh Allen is an incredible athlete. All those guys are, but there are guys on the defense that are impressive athletes. I mean basketball has some just ridiculous athletes. I mean look at Wemby, but he's built for his sport, he's 7'4" and can, you know, like he's just ridiculous. We'll see the Olympics this summer. They're incredible athletes, but just 'cause you can like run a 4, 4, it doesn't mean you can hit a baseball, it doesn't mean you can hit a 90 mile an hour fast ball. So all these things are very different. I mean McDavid may not be able to dunk, right? But he's... That doesn't mean he's not a great athlete. Speaking of greatness my friend, that leads me to my next shout-out and our final one. My shout-out goes to Alexander Zhadan. Who the fuck is Alexander Zhadan you might ask. Well, my man has gained attention for revealing that he employed ChatGPT to operate a Tinder bot, that's the dating app that you and I know nothing about, resulting in over 5,000 matches. Let me repeat that, 5,000 matches, and ultimately helping him meet his fiance. Joel: Zhadan shared that he proposed to the girl ChatGPT had interacted with on his behalf for an entire year. Now, I bring up this dating story because it has recruiting relevance. I've said for a long time that we're eventually going to a place where robots interview robots, and the only time people actually meet is when they show up at the company for their first day. And this to me, proves that we're on track for that reality. The fact that this dude could hold conversations with 5,000 girls who are not easily duped. I've dated in the past, I mean, there are dumb girls as there are dumb guys. Joel: But most of them like you can't get past a chat bot, but this guy did it with current technology, and you can bet that they're gonna be techies, and there already have been that interview with multiple companies, and on the other side of the company, they're chatting with him with a chat bot. So this is kind of a weird world we're going to. You as a recruiter, like what are your thoughts on where this is going, is it a good place? Is it a bad place? Should we try to stop it? Is it just like it can't be stopped. What are your thoughts on robots interviewing robots? Serge: Well, in this particular case, like hats off for this guy, right? 'Cause I couldn't manage dating three girls at the same time, so obviously technology is way ahead since I was in the dating pool. But if we look at... It's not a robot interviewing a robot in this particular case, even though these ladies are going to assume we're real, even though they did get to, but we are definitely heading that way and it scares the shit out of me, Joel. If you think about it and you had Hilke on your show, and I have Hilke coming on who wrote The Algorithm, and just thinking about how we're just letting it run wild, I think we're already past the point that like we can't stuff it back in. Serge: We are going to get within the next couple of years, a couple of things. Someone is going to get hired that basically, we're a robot in the sense that they did their interviews through some type of AI program that's going to happen, and we are going to see... I think it's already happening. Like robots are interviewing robots, so yes, it is happening. Do I like it? No. But there's some elements that I like. What I do like about AI in this space is definitely removing a lot of the things that really suck to do. Like I hate booking interviews, I hate doing all the admin tasks, if you can take that off my plate, great. Serge: But the other things as far as making hiring decisions, and even the matching software, you're still like putting your hands on a scale, like you're acting like God with technology that has no clue... I know they probably train on large language models, there's a lot of data around it, but I still don't think it's accurate, and I don't think anyone after they implement these tools are actually going back and checking does it still make sense. Joel: Just wait till video, you can't tell the difference. Just wait till conversations, you can't tell the difference. There's gonna have to be filters and companies are gonna pop up that say like, no, this is an AI, this is not a human being. How you police that, I have no idea, I believe with you, I believe your comment of the toothpaste is out of the bottle, and we're not ever going back, but in light of that, my friend, almost as good as toothpaste out of the bottle is booze out of the can or booze out of the bottle, which is where I start talking about the free stuff that you can get at Chad and Cheese, that's right. If you like free t-shirts from our friends at JobGet, free beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs, and free bourbon, you get a selection from me and a selection from Chad every month. That is from our friends at Textkernel. And if it's your birthday, that's right, if it's your birthday, you could win a bottle of rum from our friends at Plum. SFX: Ooh, ooh. Really, can you feel the tension in the air right now? Serge: I love that soundbite. But I don't think Michelle at Plum loves it. Have you asked her? SFX: I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: What I've found is everyone loves it there, and it's a great hook for people to remember... Serge: I love it. Joel: Plum. Maybe it's good or bad, but anyway, it's definitely good for the people that are having a birthday because they have a chance to win some booze. So anyway, some listeners that are celebrating another trip around the Sun, include Elizabeth Dunlap, Ivan Stoyanovich, Jonathan Zube, Saif Ahmed, Adam Bergen, Jim Kurtz, Ryan Ravina, Collie Nichols, Sarah Hanson, Matt Riordan, Amadoo Bamia, Joe Essenfeld. He's on this show twice by the way, happy birthday, Joe. Tania Pittman, Ben Wagster, Mimi Jerkin, Courtney Brown, Jess Fondbank, Andrew Rothman, Jason Loritson, Dave Ralph, one of my favorite Irishman. Amanda Thomson Buffington, Dave Mendoza, and my neighbor down the street, and Indeed employee and maybe their only sign of life at employee, Scott Stum. What's up Stummy? Celebrate a birthday, and that is the birthdays. Now, just so you know, I'm wrapping in two weeks in one because we were live and skipped them from last week, so happy birthday today. Well, it's travel season, Serge, and I know you're on the road, you wanna plug any places you're gonna be here in the next couple of months or this year? Serge: Well, I'm going to make an announcement, TA Tech in Washington in May, myself and Shelley will be the official MCs of that show. Just a couple of other shows. [laughter] I love your soundbites. Joel: And that's Washington DC, not Washington State. Gotta make that clarification, so... Okay. Serge: Yes. Thanks for clarifying that. And aside from that, we'll be at Unleash, HR Tech, all the big shows, look for the good looking guy. [laughter] Joel: Such humility with the Canadian people. That's great. All right. Well, our travels are heating up as well. We're in San Diego recently, be at Transform in Vegas in March, I think that's the 11th through the 13th, and then we're headed to good old Europe, the old country, we're going to Amsterdam, to the House of HR conference, the E-recruitment conference. If you're gonna be in Amsterdam and if, or if you're in Europe and you wanna stop by, I think that's March 19th. Go to chadcheese.com, click our Events link. We have a coupon code for 50% off. Holy shit, 50%. And in Euros, I'm not sure how that equals out to dollars and Canadian dollars, but it sounds like a pretty good deal to me, no matter what. Again, our travels are sponsored by the good folks at Shaker Recruitment Marketing, and my last announcement before we get to topics, if you haven't listened to The Chad & Cheese Podcast does data with LinkUp CEO Toby Dayton. It's a great show. We do it once a month. We look at the jobs report, which I know you guys talked about recently on your show, we dig into it, we ask questions about 25 minutes. It's on YouTube only, so you gotta go to youtube.com/@chadcheese to check that out, and that is the announcements. You got anything else, Serge? You wanna make a football prediction or anything before we get to topics? Serge: That's it. Joel: SuperBowl prediction, before we get to topics? Serge: Kansas City 34-28, Kansas City over under on Taylor Swift Cutaways 12. Joel: So we did this on the monthly show, I said Kansas City 24-21, you got a lot of scoring in that game that will be interesting. That's too pretty good defenses. What's changing my mind is Mahomes' dad with the DUI. Number three, DUI. That's never good the week before a game. So he's gonna have, his head's gonna be in weird place. You never want dad with the perp shot, you never want the mug shot with your dad, it's number three, he could do jail time. Like that's... Serge: He could. Serious jail time too, right? Joel: Yeah, serious jail time. So I'm on the fence man. I had 24-21... Serge: Put your money on the QB. Joel: 24-21... I like the QB. Yeah. It's hard to, but if the goat's got some bad shit in his head, that makes me think twice. I'll stick with Kansas City 24-21, but I love the commercials and Taylor Swift, there's gonna be a lot of Taylor Swift, I'm afraid, let's get to... [music] Joel: Topics. That's right. Google for Jobs is back in the news. We talked about it last week in the show that they're taking away their pay-per-click solution that we've been talking about, they were testing it, piloting with some agencies. Well, Google unexpectedly closed its job advertising test, citing performance issues according to its participants, feedback indicated low application rates and shrinking job budgets. Google provided no explanation for the shutdown, leaving speculation about staffing cuts and competing priorities. One source said, "Performance just wasn't there." Serge, what are your thoughts on Google pulling out? Serge: I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed. I really thought this was an opportunity to kind of start taking a bite out of the Indeed monopoly, especially here in Canada, where Indeed dominates 90% of the market share. I did think it was going to be a great alternative. I am disappointed I think is the biggest word I can say right now. Joel: So I've thought about this a lot, Serge. Serge: Yeah. Joel: I've lost sleep over it, 'cause it's so perplexing to me, and I had this long soliloquy that I had prepared about how the job board business sucked and Google... It just wasn't worth Google's time, and they just... It wasn't worth it, right? And then it was great for Indeed, and like they should celebrate. And then we had a report from AppCast recently about how clicks are going down, like the number of clicks are going up, but what people are getting for the clicks is going down. And historically, when you're a middle man to any of this stuff, like it's a race to the bottom, like prices are just gonna go down eventually. And I was gonna say, Google just didn't want any part of that, but then I put my tin foil hat on, Serge. And I'm gonna be a little conspiratorial in my commentary here, and I've been in a few of these back rooms with the cigar smoke, and like it's usually five or 10 other white, old white guys talking about so and so promised this to so and so, and in return they got so and so. Joel: I have no proof of this, I have no inside information, but it would not surprise me if Google sat down in the board room and said, hey, what industry can we like scare the shit out of and get money from? Well, classifieds is an easy one, right? Job post... They know how much Indeed is spending. They know how much ZipRecruiter is spending. So what if Google said, you know what? Let's launch this job thing, it'll be easy for us, we'll put some resources behind it, and then we'll start talking about a pay-per-click thing, and we'll start talking about like we'll do pilot things and like really scare the shit out of these folks. And it's no surprise to me that Indeed was not on Google for Jobs and now they are. Indeed spends a ton of money with Google, and then you have a post by our friend, Chris Russell, who's really on the front lines of like the small niche job board folks, and he talks about how it's all big sites now. It used to be the little guys, it used to be little niche boards that were on Google for Jobs, and it's now all ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, big, like big sites, right? That spend a lot of money. Joel: So would you really put it past Google to call up Indeed, to call up LinkedIn, to call up ZipRecruiter, to call up any, Seek in Australia, whatever, right? And say, you know what? If you guys sort of commit to, I don't know, five years at a certain budget to advertise on Google, we'll forget about this whole pay-per-click thing, and we'll keep putting your jobs in the organic thing, and you'll still get a lot of exposure and traffic, but we'd like some sort of a commitment, monetary commitment in advertising. And why wouldn't Indeed, LinkedIn, and whatever take that deal? They're gonna spend it anyway, and then Google gets to go, okay, well, let's put our resources back into AI in fighting OpenAI and fighting Meta who just had a blow-out quarter. And if you think I'm crazy, Google gives Apple $6 billion a year to be the default search engine on Safari. Serge: Yeah. Joel: It would be nothing for Apple to go buy DuckDuckGo or buy some other search engine or build their own and have their own pay-per-click thing, like Apple could do it. Do they wanna do it? No, it's much easier and better to get $6 billion check written from Google and they don't have to worry about it. I think some conversations happened where the big job sites committed dollars to Google, and in return, wink wink, hush hush, Google said we're gonna get out of the job board business. That's my take on Google getting out of the pay-per-click business. Am I crazy? Serge: You're not crazy, but I don't think you're right. I think there's definitely some factors, and if we look at Google job ads, and basically for Google, it was kind of replacing the money that was being spent on SEM ads, which Indeed, LinkedIn, all of these players are massive budgets. We're talking about billions of dollars, and those dollars were just going to move into the Google job ad platform. So I didn't see a lot of upside because in reality, outside of those big job boards or ad agencies, have you ever been into one of these dashboards trying to buy an ad on Google? Like there is not a recruiter that I know would be able to do this or want do this this, right? Joel: It'd be the agencies. Serge: It'd be the agency. Joel: The agencies would buy it for them. Right? Serge: They would, but there's... Joel: Frankly, it would be going to Indeed and say, hey, you wanna sponsor your jobs? Like here's the cost. Serge: Yeah. Joel: It wouldn't be the little guy, the little recruiter buying the ads. Serge: No, there wouldn't be. Joel: And I like Google's pushed out... The dream of Google was like all the company jobs would take precedence, all the people would click on the company jobs, and we could eliminate job boards. Unfortunately, user behavior says, I know LinkedIn, I don't know this company from Adam, I gotta go through a 45-minute application ATS bullshit process, I can apply with one click from LinkedIn. So I think it just... It became a thing where everyone's going to the big job sites anyway, they're not going to the company sites like we thought, let's just... Let's get our coin. Have you read The Art of War by Sun Tzu? Serge: I have. Joel: Okay. So Sun Tzu said, "The greatest victory is that which requires no battle." Google basically won this fight, fattened up their bottom line with no battle whatsoever, just the fear that Google would launch this thing, I think got the big companies to open their wallets. Serge: I don't think that's what happened. I really do think... [laughter] Serge: I don't think that's what happened. I think the reality here, Joel, is that Google's core business is potentially in deep trouble, and we've seen some recent layoffs at Google, there's definitely... Well, they still have a ton of staff. So don't get me wrong, but I think their focus is completely different, and I do think to a couple of billion dollars and maybe not even a couple of billion is not worth the effort, it's not worth the effort in Europe, it's not worth the regulation nightmares it might come across if they actually become successful at this. And to your point, I agree ad agencies would buy this, but you think about a lot of Indeed's business is coming from that mom and pop buying that $15 a day budget, buying a job and without the ability to do that, Google is not going to be an avenue for most of the jobs is only going to be populated with the big jobs out there. So I think it has nothing to do... It's not a bad theory, but I think you've been listening to Joe Rogan and conspiracy theories a little too much. [laughter] Joel: That's right, I want a piece of that $250 million that Joe Rogan's getting. So if it takes a conspiracy theory about Google strong arming the job boards, well, I'm willing to take, I'm willing to take that bet. But you as typical, it takes a Canadian to pull down the crazy American and see some logic. Serge: Yeah, I think there's not enough money, and Google's core business is going to be their focus, it's like... It's a nasty business. Joel: It is. Serge: Like I've been in 20 years and no one wants to run a job board. I don't blame anyone for running a job board, but I don't see like aggregating all the jobs on the internet is a fucking nightmare. And I think Google finally realized that. Joel: All right. Let's move on to Fora. An executive relationship management platform or ERM has launched this week, where they focus on AI technology tailored for C-suite leaders, backed by 3.8 million in pre-seed funding, they aim to revolutionize decision making for executives by offering actionable insights amidst the daily information flow. Fora simplifies complex data providing concise insights for a strategic advantage as attested by CEO, Joe Shaker, Shaker Recruitment and Marketing, and also a proud sponsor of Chad & Cheese I might add, noteworthy here. In addition to Joe Shaker's stamp of approval is Fora bringing back Jibe leadership, Joe Essenfeld and Michael Liddell as well as iCIMS former CMO, Susan Vitale as an advisory board member, getting the band back together, if you will. You might remember. Serge: So I didn't know the My Pillow guy... Joel: Mike Liddell, yeah. Serge: Was part of this as well. I'm surprised. Joel: He's lifted a little bit and lost some hair, but yeah, it's a totally different Mike, it's Michael, Michael Liddell. Yeah. Serge: Michael. Joel: It's like Mike Cohen is... Yeah. No, Michael Cohen, 'cause he's a sleaze bag. Anyway, you remember Jibe was acquired by iCIMS, Susan was at iCIMS, Joe was at iCIMS for a while, and he's gone and launched for us. So Serge, what are your thoughts on Fora and executive relationship management? Serge: Yeah. To be completely honest, I had no clue what that meant until I had to go to ChatGPT and keep reading that article multiple times. It's a little bit different then ERM, which is enterprise relationship management, but aside, whatever it is, there's a couple of things that I look for success when a new company is launching, and it's people that have done it before and had been successful. And I had the opportunity to work a little bit with Susan Vitale, back in my Workopolis days and we were a reseller for iCIMS in Canada, and she was extremely impressive. I haven't met the other members of this team, but I feel like they have the chops, they have the chops to accomplish this, and so kudos on them. I'm still not 100% sure what an executive relationship manager does. But just reading on it, it looks like it helps people just doing decisions at a high level, it takes a lot of data and just kind of simplifies it and brings it to a way that helps you make that decision. Joel: Got it. So you're right with the jockeys and we gotta look at those before anything else. So Joe Essenfeld launched Jibe really before mobile was cool. The idea was we'll build mobile websites for career centers, and I can remember multiple people saying no one will ever search for a job on a mobile device, on a smartphone, no one will ever search, no one will ever look at jobs and no one will definitely ever apply to a job on a mobile phone. So Joe was very early in the mobile revolution, and he obviously was correct in his vision. So to be a little bit curious about what the hell is this thing, it doesn't really surprise me because Joe's always sort of been ahead of the curve to say the least on some of these things. We've talked about on the show of like AI CEOs. Do we really need CEOs? That's a little crazy. Joel: I won't go off the reservation again on you on this show. Well, I might, but who knows? But having an augmented executive is not crazy, like to say, okay, let's say I'm on a battlefield and I'm a general, like, okay, give me the AI. What could possibly happen with any move possible, and then let me decide based on the information what I think is best. So I'm still making the decision, but I'm making it more intelligently, hopefully, because I have AI behind me. I'm sure there are multiple executive decisions every day where they would love to go, okay, put this in the AI machine and tell me what I should do or tell me what my odds are, be my C-3PO, if you will, tell me what my chances are of escaping the minefield or the asteroid field, and I'll make the decision from there. So I like the idea of an augmented executive, and I think a smart executive would use something like this. I love the URL, it's fora.day, so it's Fora Day, memorable, kinda weird, kinda out there. So... Serge: I like it. Joel: 3.8 is a good start. Think Joe is a good jockey. He's a visionary. I think getting Joe Shaker on board at Shaker means that he's gonna connect that with a lot of other people, he's got a good track record. So I'm gonna watch this company carefully, I'm not necessarily ready to buy if you put my feet to the fire, but I'm definitely not selling the idea of like an augmented AI tailored a sick co-pilot for an executive, I think it's an interesting idea. Serge: Joel, if you think about it, it's the perfect tool for an executive. If you look at what a CEO's job is, is to make decisions... Joel: Manage risk. Serge: That's it. In reality, make the big decisions in some ways, I think obviously AI and this type of tool is going to have a lot more data to be able to make that decision, so it makes a lot of sense. I'm just saying, I'm gonna be looking at really closely is pretty interesting stuff, but not ready to say bye, but they've got a track record. So I'll go by that. Joel: And who wouldn't love, hey, why the hell did you do that? Oh, well, the data says this. So you're not culpable for the dumb things you do as an executive, you have AI behind you saying that you made the right move. Serge: Yeah. Well, in that case like why do we need CEO's to your point, 'cause at one particular point, they're going to make better decisions than most CEOs can, so you might be going the right track here. Joel: Someone at VC made a prediction in 2024, someone will invest like a decent chunk of money in a company and realize that the CEO is a bot or AI, and all the employees are AI-driven. But who's not AI-driven are our sponsors on the show. So let's take a quick break. Pay some bills, and we'll talk about Lyft when we get back. So Serge, are you an Uber or Lyft guy? Do you... Are you an equal opportunity rider? What's your take? Serge: So I rarely take any of it unless I'm traveling. Joel: Take the limo, right? You get the limo guy with the Boudreau sign at the airport. Serge: Yes, absolutely. It's a requirement. So usually, I'll leverage Uber for sure. I've never taken a Lyft, and Lyft is not really big here in Calgary, in my hometown. So the only option is Uber. Joel: Calgary. Well, Lyft is in the news again. They're introducing weekly earnings guarantees for drivers, a first in the US ride- hailing industry, aiming to attract more drivers to its platform amidst competition with... You guessed it, Uber. The move addresses concerns about driver earnings and aims to strengthen the sector, additionally, Lyft announced measures to improve transparency and offering incentives for drivers, including extra earnings for scheduled rides and electric vehicle usage. Serge, what are your thoughts on the move? Is this going to be a strike to Uber that really wounds the leader or not? Serge: I don't think it is. There's a couple of things I have to say here. So you had Kevin Wheeler on your podcast, I think a couple of weeks ago, and he said one thing that really stuck with me is basically five years, he was talking about UPS and be like... Or UAW, sorry, and in five years, we'll give you the money now, in five years, you're going to be replaced. Obviously, they're not saying that. I think this is very similar, 'cause the question is like when do we get to driverless cars? And this is... I don't think this business model works without being... Without that being the future of where Uber and Lyft go, that these cars are driven not by people, because we are going to run out of people. Serge: The supply chain challenges as far as when it comes to talent, to be able to staff all these cars across North America across the world, it's just not sustainable. So I think this is just a way to appease the drivers for the next 5-10 years, and I also, I have a conspiracy theory around it, and I wanna bounce it off you, I definitely think this is Lyft's... They're trying to cause Uber some pain. They're trying to cause Uber some pain to eventually get acquired. They're trying to get acquired by Uber is one of my guess, I have no clue, I don't spend any time in this space, but it kinda makes sense. Like who wants to get in the battle of paying the drivers more and more, it's just... It doesn't... No one wins, Uber or Lyft doesn't win at the end of the day, so there's gotta be another motive here is my thoughts. Joel: The motive is just to be competitive and stay alive, and Uber has done an amazing job of being the Coca-Cola of the ride-sharing, ride-hailing industry. And I remember when Netflix came out and delivered DVDs to your door, you probably remember this as well. And you put it back in the mail and you sent the CD or DVD back, you didn't have late fees, you didn't have like any of this stuff. And then Blockbuster said, Holy shit, we're getting killed, we'll do what Netflix does, and they launched this big, I think actually a Super Bowl ad at one point of like, we'll ship them to you Blockbuster, and everyone said, well, everyone knows Blockbuster, Netflix is still this fairly little company, but it didn't work. The attempt didn't work, it was desperation. Netflix, they were that brand, they were associated with mailing CD, DVDs, and Blockbuster was still the company that you got in your car and you went out and hoped that the video was there. And that you rented it. So to me, like Uber has won this branding battle, they are the 800-pound gorilla. The only thing Lyft could do would be reduce prices, and I've ridden in both, and I would say Lyft typically is much cheaper than Uber. Joel: The problem is you need rides for me to buy. So Uber is so much more available in multiple countries, they're more international, they're just easier to use, they've done a great job of integrating with like enterprise accounts and business accounts and things like that. So to me, like Lyft, applause for like trying to give back more to the drivers, make it more profitable for them, but the problem is you gotta drive people somewhere to make a dollar. And unless Lyft changes everyone's perception that Lyft is a better way to go, no one's gonna take Lyfts like they do Uber. So to me it's like it's just a failed battle, Lyft can hope to be acquired, I don't know who. Maybe a driverless car company would buy it for the brand, but to me, or maybe DoorDash could buy it and just like monopolize the drivers to do that, I don't know. I think it's a move of desperation and it's basically over for them. Serge: So why wouldn't Uber buy them? Joel: Well, you get into some monopoly issues, you'd have to go in front of Congress and say, this is not anti-competitive trust. Yeah. Serge: Well, is there room? Joel: It's better for Uber... It's better for Uber to just let Lyft die or maybe get it for parts, government doesn't care 'cause Lyft is so small, but I just... I don't think Uber wants that government intervention in their business. They're doing so well right now, why fuck it up with government like knocking on the door for anti-trust issues. Serge: Do you think there's enough room for multiple... I know there is Uber and Lyft are the two biggest. There's probably 20 different ones depending on the country that you're in. Is it just kind of a market size, well, the market is massive, but is there enough demand and enough people there are going to be driving that... There can be 100 people or 100 companies doing this. Joel: Look, Uber, Uber is great. I mean... Serge: They are. Joel: They've got a good platform. They've got scale, they got the drivers, they got the reviews, they have the security issues, they have... They got it going on. I mean what's gonna disrupt them is like a Netflix, it's gonna be someone say, we are driverless, you get in the car, you scan your QR code on your app, it takes you where you wanna go, you get out and you're done. Like that, if somebody comes along and does that, that could disrupt Uber, but another like drivers and the way it is now, I think Uber is gonna be 80% of the market. Serge: Yeah. Joel: And Lyft and others that come on will be the other 20 or so percent. They're going deep, Serge. SFX: Just the tip. Serge: Just the tip. Joel: Going deep. We have you to thank for that soundbite. Don't we? Serge: It's my voice. You didn't know that? Joel: Give you credit for that. Oh yeah. [chuckle] Let's talk about bots speaking of driverless car. So it was a good news and bad news week for bots. First, the good news, Starship Technology is a company that produces sidewalk delivery robots, has secured 90 million in funding to expand operations. The investment will fuel a geographic expansion, enhanced manufacturing capabilities and invest in software and logistics. With 6 million deliveries and 11 million miles traveled, the company is profitable, and as an Estonian-based company focused on Europe. Now to some bad news for robots, the NYPD is ending its AI-driven security robots deployment in the Times Square subway station after a pilot program. These were these 400-pound egg-shaped wheel bots created by a company called Knightscope. NYPD did not disclose the robot's crime finding efficiency. Meanwhile, going back to some good news, the NYPD's canine robot Digidog, which we've talked about on the show, returns to service... Serge: I am but it depends on which bots. Joel: After a hiatus. Serge, are you buying or selling... Serge: And definitely these delivery bots, have you seen them out in the wild? Joel: The bots? Serge: Have you ever seen one? Joel: Not only have I seen them, I've seen TikToks of people breaking them open 'cause they know food's in it, and it's... I don't wanna point fingers, but usually homeless, down-on-their-luck folks, or kids that wanna like get a meal or just fuck shit or get a fun video on TikTok, but I have seen people be really, really naughty to these robots. I assume that's a fringe case. I assume it's single-digit percentages that this happens, because they just got $90 million, which means there's some business there and they are profitable, but yes. Serge: In Estonia is the market. Joel: Well, Europe, not just Estonia, not just the Helsinki metro area. They are in other places. But, so you're bearish on wheeled R2D2 robots delivering food. Serge: No, I... Yeah. I'm definitely bearish 'cause there's no way some of these robots can survive America's inner city. Like what are you gonna do? Put like AK-47s attached to them? Like they're going to do the same shit they did with the Lime scooters, I forget what the brand is, and the bikes. We see that in Canada as well. I do not see a future in this, they're going to get vandalized, damaged in every major city. It might not happen in the country, but they're not gonna use these delivery bots in the country at all. So definitely bearish. I would not put a penny, obviously people that know a whole lot more than I do, think it will work. There's no way this works in America. Joel: It'll work in Fringe situations, big cities maybe where there's cameras and security and you can't get away with it as easily, but yeah, country, it won't work. Security, I think, makes a lot of sense. Sometimes there's equipment that's heavy and police officers don't wanna to... Like Digidog makes a lot of sense. It is a little bit dystopian, but I don't know if you saw in the news this week, a New York City cop got jumped by, I think six illegal immigrants or new immigrants, so there's a whole like political to blow up on this. But the point is that there are a lot of cops and frankly, we need all the cops we can get. Serge: I agree. Joel: Like recruiting cops is not a growth industry, and if you can plug in robotic security or augmented security where it's kind of cool to be a cop, you get a like digital dog walking with you, walking the beat with you. Or you have R2D2 with a machine gun in case you get jumped by a bunch of knuckleheads like that to me makes sense because cops need all the help they can get. We want cops to be successful. We want cops to feel safe, and we want cops to beget more and more cops for security. So from that perspective, I'm buying the canine, I'm buying the egg, whatever. Joel: I think technology will make it so that facial recognition and cameras in subways are gonna be much better, but just the presence of something that looks like, oh, I might not wanna do what I wanna do, that's a crime, because there's this thing there and I can't go beat it up because it's got a siren and a cop is with it, whatever it is, right? But security, people wanna feel safe, people are feeling scared, particularly in America in the big cities. And this to me is something that makes a lot of sense. I did like the New York Post headline about retiring the Times Square robot. It was Rust in Peace, which I thought was cute, and... Serge: I'll end it on this. I think I'm definitely bullish on bots, but I'm bullish on bots when it comes to where it makes sense, right? I'm thinking, like I saw a video this week that just blew my mind of this robot harvesting hay, I'm like, well, that's amazing. It did it like in two minutes, I see it in manufacturing, I see it in quick service restaurants. I think there will be bots, I just don't think they will be everywhere. So I am bearish and bullish depending on what the robot looks like, but definitely not those delivery bots, no way, it's not gonna happen. Joel: Something else that's not going away is sponsors on our show because we need to pay some bills. Let's take a quick break. And we'll come back and talk about Apple. All right, Serge, let's get a little naughty. A little naughty I know you Canadians like a little naughty. So Apple's Vision Pro, I'm sure you've seen this thing, I don't know if it's for sale in Canada yet, but it's big news. So their VR headset has disappointed buyers, maybe not for the reason that you think. It's disappointing buyers because it apparently blocks access to VR pornography, that's right, prompting frustration and complaints on social media and Reddit. Despite anticipation for its release, users find they cannot access explicit content leading to speculation about intentional restrictions by Apple. The headset also faces criticism for its high price of $3,500 US, dubbing it, "An overpriced chastity belt." If you need a naughty alternative, Serge, never fear, try the Meta Quest 2, not that I speak from experience... Serge: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joel: That is. Serge, your take on Apple's no porn for you. Serge: Oh imagine the shame of being caught with your dick in your hand wearing that space helmet. It would probably be the most shame that anyone could ever feel, so outside of that, you can still play PornHub in flat video, so are they upset by that? It's gotta come eventually. Right? Like it's gotta be available that you get the full VR experience. Someone's going to figure it out. I did see there's like Reddit threads, basically talking how you can bypass it. I don't know if anyone did, but I don't know, if it could. Maybe I'd get one. No, I'm kidding. But I would get one for different reasons, obviously. I love it. I think it's the coolest thing ever. Would you get one? Joel: Yeah. A VR headset? I mean I talk a lot about it on the show. Serge: Would you get this one? Joel: I just... Not for $3,500. Serge: No? Joel: I'll get the fourth generation 999 version. But the whole... So my take on this... So I learned really early in my career that the success of the Internet was based on three things PPC, not pay-per-click, pills, porn, and casinos, built the original internet. I can remember being in college in the '90s where dial-up modem at my campus, going to like playboy.com and waiting like for the pixelated nipple to show up on the screen. If Apple is gonna block porn, and they've done a good job on the app store of not having any real naughtiness, although people would argue TikTok and social media is its own porn. But this to me is a real opportunity for Meta to sort of take the lead on all the guys out there. And there are a lot of lonely men. Or not lonely, I'm not judging. I'm not judging, Serge. We don't judge in America. Serge: No. Joel: That this is an opportunity... By the way, Mark Zuckerberg is having one of the best months ever. Serge: He is. Joel: Meta stock is off the chain. The dude kind of, you know, the Congress, I don't know if you saw this. He went in front of Congress. Dude, Congress needs to make laws like, [chuckle] that's a whole other show, but like they paid a dividend to Facebook, Meta shareholders, which made him 700 million richer overnight. He's looking kinda svelte. He's growing his hair out. He's looking like an adult. He's looking sort of thoughtful. Like I think this could be the resurgence of Zuck, and I'm here for it, man. I'm here for it. VR porn or not, I'm a buyer of what Zuck is selling. And speaking of selling, the Recruitment Flex, thanks for joining me. For those that wanna listen to your secondarily nice show compared to ours, where would you send them? Serge: On all major podcast players, but also therecruitmentflex.com, you can find all our episodes. Joel, this was a ton of fun. Thank you so much for bringing me on. SFX: Take off will ya we're doin' our movie! Don't wreck our show, you hoser! Joel: We out. Serge: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to... What's it called? Podcast with Chad and Cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing, just a lot of shout-outs to people you don't even know, and yet, you're listening, it's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. They're so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode, and while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

Hold onto your resumes, wage slaves, because The Weekly Show's about to launch. This week's itinerary? Corporate drama as spicy as sriracha lattes: LinkedIn's Message to Recruiters: Our crystal ball says -- It ain't nice. Moneybags Mania: Buckle up for a cash explosion! Huler's McDucking it, Ceridian's playing Monopoly with learning platforms, and DailyPay's got a billion-dollar piggy bank. Your salary? A rounding error. Job Board Jeopardy: Hold onto your FlexJobs! Bold.com snatched it like a free croissant at a networking event. Meanwhile, Sports Illustrated might be taking a dirt nap thanks to The Arena Group's fumble. Are robots writing your news now? Google's Global Games: Across the globe, Google's playing musical chairs with its Korean employees. But guess what? They're not having it. So there you have it, work world circus in a nutshell. Laugh, cry, maybe fart a little – that's what we're here for. Tune in next week for more corporate clowning and your weekly dose of The Weekly Show. Because in this game, we're all just juggling deadlines and dodging banana peels. Keep calm and carry on… with your trusty air freshener. P.S. Spread the word, wage slaves! We're all in this crazy ride together. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who finished last in New Hampshire, so we're suspending our campaign. What's up kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel "Vision Pro" Cheesman. Chad: And this is Chad "Zombie Killer" Sowash. Joel: And on this show LinkedIn says, "Bend over." A good week for Uncle Joe, and Google may have a hostage crisis on its hands. Let's do this. SFX: Emotional damage. Joel: Chad, did you get a... Did you buy a pair of Vision Pros or are you on the waiting list? Like what... Chad: You mean the ones that cost like $3 million a piece? No. I did not. I did not get them. [laughter] Joel: 3500. Chad: Oh. Joel: So it's... Chad: Oh. Okay. Joel: It's for the people. It's a product for the people, Chad. A product for the people. Chad: Blue collar people all over the world will have them. No. Joel: They sold out. I was pretty shocked. Now maybe... Chad: They had 25 of them. Yeah. It still... Joel: There are a lot of people in the world who have more money than they know what to do with and just drop the credit card to buy them. But... Chad: And they're not line workers. I'm going to gonna say that. I'm just going to gonna go ahead and put that out there. I'm going to gonna generalize they're not line workers who have 3,500 bucks. Joel: Pretty sure the UAW is not going to gonna be putting cars together with the Apple Vision Pro on their heads. Chad: Although, I did do some zombie killing this week at the Sandbox VR this last weekend. I mean, that was only 50 bucks a pop, and it was like an hour and a half in total. Get there, check in, training, then you got equipped, get all your equipment put on. There were five of us that are fighting zombies. I mean, it was a blast. We should have a Chad and Cheese VR Zombie Killing event in Indianapolis or there are many cities across the US that we could actually do these. It'd be a blast. Good team build. Joel: Yeah. This wasn't $50 per zombie, was it? It was like 50 in all the zombies you can kill, I hope. Chad: Yes. Yes. It was a blast. Yeah. Totally. Literally and figuratively. Joel: Yeah. And speaking of zombies, I know a few Bills fans who have been walking around like they're dead after that loss... Chad: Hello, wide right. Joel: To the Chiefs. Yeah. That was so... I mean, only the Bills. Maybe the Browns or the Lions, but the Lions, of course. So those who don't know, we have our Final Four in the NFL. We have San Francisco taking on Detroit, and we have Baltimore taking on Kansas City. What's your take on how this is going to gonna play out? Chad: I mean, Kansas City, they've been playing like shit all year, but they've bumbled into wins. I mean, they've just won. And there's the Bills to show you that. The Ravens, I mean, they've been playing hot. They're a strong team. I hope to see them win. At the end of the day, I want to wanna see the Detroit Lions win. Period. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: They're the massive underdog. All the others have won before. I want to see the Lions come out of this as Super Bowl champs. It's going to gonna be hard, but I hope that's what happens. Joel: Yeah. When this thing started, I was praying for a Cleveland Detroit Super Bowl, which would probably break... Chad: So awesome. Joel: Would probably break the NFL. But if I... Chad: It would break the internet. Joel: If I can get the original Browns who are the Baltimore Ravens playing Detroit, I guess that's as close as we can do. The Lions in a Super Bowl blows me away 'cause that just doesn't happen. I read something that said that the Lions would consider bringing Barry Sanders back on a one day contract and have him play one down somehow that if they win, he can get a ring. Which I think would be a feel good story, but probably not going to gonna happen. Chad: Well, I gotta say Stafford going to the Rams, winning with the Rams, right? I mean, that was... I mean, he was obviously long time quarterback at Detroit. Now, hopefully watching that on the other side, that would be amazing with Jared Goff, right? I mean, just Detroit overall, they deserve a win. Joel: Yeah. Now, your wife is a big Packers fan, and the Packers should have won that game. She pretty... Well, she's gotta be heartened by the fact that they're the youngest team in the NFL. Jordan Love looks like a real quarterback. Chad: He does. Joel: And they should be playing this weekend. Chad: I've gotta say, the Green Bay Packers know how to bring up a quarterback, right? And they're about the only team that does it this way. They had Aaron Rogers, they got Jordan Love behind Aaron Rogers, much like they had Aaron Rogers behind Brett Favre, right? So they get them there, they get them knowing the system, knowing the play. I mean, just all the way through, they know how to build quarterbacks, which I thought was amazing, unlike Chicago, where you throw Justin Fields into the fricking lions den right out of the gate. So, yeah. I mean, I like the Packers just from the way that they look at football. I mean, they're wholly owned by Green Bay. They're just an entirely different animal when it comes to sports. And I've never liked Aaron Rogers, so I'm glad he's fucking outta out of there. [chuckle] Chad: And I hope Jordan Love kicks ass, takes names so that Aaron Rogers can just be smoked as nothing in the past. Joel: There's gotta be an employment lesson in there somewhere. Let's see. Recruit well, train well upskill and you win people. That's... Look to the Packers. Look to the Packers for guidance, everybody. Chad: Makes sense. Makes sense. Joel: Oh man. We got a lot to cover, so... Chad: Yep. Joel: Quick shout out to our friend Julie Calli. Guys listen, if you listen to the show, you know that we've done quite a few shows with Julie. We had a series on recruitment marketing. That's all in the archives. If you want to go to chadcheese.com. But Julie is now the CMO at Lensa after stint at recruitmentmarketing.com and Recruitics. She goes back to SEO days. Chad: Oh God. Yeah. Joel: In the mid 2000s. That was with six figure jobs, I think. So she's been around a while. She's going to gonna kick ass. We we're going to gonna see her at some point down the road, but shout out to Julie. Great person. I hope it's obviously a great opportunity. Go kick ass. We're cheering for you here at Chad and Cheese. Chad: Yeah. She might be in Budapest this week 'cause a lot of the leadership teams Gergo, Joey Stubbs is finding his way over there a lot, is in Budapest, which actually where my daughter lives. So hopefully she gets a chance to go over there, enjoy a little Eastern block. It's a great place to be. Congratulations. Not just to Julie, who is a fucking superstar, but also Lensa to be able to have somebody on staff with that kind of cred. Chad: All right. So, winning. You know who's winning? Our listeners are winning. It's funny because our listeners are now watching us on YouTube. So I'm getting pictures from listeners who are watching us on big screen TVs in their living room. So kids, pop some corn, pour some drinks and watch a little Chad and Cheese. But dude, seriously, this is surreal. I mean, people listening to us. That's one thing. In their cars on the train, wherever they're doing, but in their front room? Joel: Hey, TVs are in bedrooms too, Chad. SFX: What are doing, step bro? [laughter] Joel: I'm saying there may not be quite an aphrodisiac like watching the Chad Cheese podcast. I'm just saying. Chad: That's a very good point. Yeah. [laughter] Joel: Speaking of boner Killers, one company got punched in the mouth recently. Chad: Oh. Jesus. Joel: You've probably seen this on the socials. Chad: Yes. Joel: My shout out goes out to Brittany Peach. No. That apparently is not a stripper name. That is her real name. And she took her employer, I guess, past employer at this point, to the woodshed. Check out this TikTok, condensed version, the real version if you're gonna go check it out, search Brittany Peach, or it sounds like a Mario Luigi character. [laughter] Joel: Princess Peach. Britney Peach. Anyway, so let's check out that video and that soundbite from Brittany sticking it to her employer. [video playback] Chad: Ouch. Yeah. [video playback] Joel: I love that. [laughter] Joel: She might be a listener, Chad. 'Cause she dropped the whole, "You hired too many people and now you're paying for it." We've talked about that on the show many times about these companies that overhired, and now people like Brittany, who clearly shouldn't be on the chopping block, getting the axe. Chad: Four months, she's been in the job. And it's a sales job, so you've got a three-month ramp where you're going through training and all these things, that fourth month, which it sounds like was December is a hell of a month to be starting. I mean, let me just tell you, Q4 is not the easiest to start in. But CloudFlare, what did they do? They sent a couple of HR people in instead of the manager to be able to talk. And I gotta say, as a very young manager back in the day when I had to fire people, I was told by my CEO that I need to sit down, shut up, be in the room and let HR do what HR did. I learned that was wrong. That was bullshit. We are humans. We should be treating other humans like humans or we're going to get a shitty brand. And these guys, I mean, CloudFlare, I don't even know how this is going to hit her brand, but they also had many openings on their website when they were going through this process. Whew. She needs a drink. Joel: She does need a drink. Which is why she should head out to chadcheese.com, click that free link and register for a chance to win multiple prizes. But booze is one of them. We're talking a bourbon selection from each of us. Our friends at Text Kernel are powering that one free beer. Geez. A cold beer might go good with that layoff. That's from our friends at as Aspen Tech Labs. Of course we got T-shirts. We're in the development stage of getting some new stuff. So if you get a T-shirt from us, it's from our friends at JobGet. And if it's your birthday, Chad, you could win a lovely bottle of rum and that is from our friends at Plum. That's right. I said Plum. SFX: I could feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: Alright. Celebrating another trip around the sun, our listeners, Tony Leoi, Stephanie Krishnan, Matthew Miller, Ed John Zituske from Philly, Lynette Phillips, Rich Carrington, Kalia Gromlek, Shelly Cars, Ben Stewart, Chris Amato, Dandy Don Sabatino. Josh Jay-Z Roethlisberger Zwayne... Chad: There he is. Joel: And last but not least... SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, if it's no Scottish, it's crap. Joel: That's right. Our good friend Adam Gordon from Scotland celebrates another trip around the sun. Adam, I know you're listening. I know you're listening. So happy birthday. Have a little bit of scotch. The pity kind on me, my friend. Happy birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Everybody that's listening. Chad: Oh, what time is it? Oh, you know what time it is. Brought to you by Shaker Recruitment Marketing. It's time for events, kids. TA week is upon us. It is next week. And on Monday the 29th from 2:00 to 5:00, that's Pacific time, we will be with Qualify at the San Diego Zoo. Now, if you're one of the first 50 to sign up, you can actually get a free ticket to the zoo. Not to mention, have a little close and personal time with your favorite animals, The Chad and Cheese. So just go to a chadcheese.com/events. You can register. It's right there with the Koala. Looks like this. It looks like this in the header. When the events get up and running that day during TA week, we're actually going to be in the Qualify booth. So drinking, causing ruckus and doing interviews. So you can see us there at the Qualify booth. Then Tuesday night after the event, reception, drinks we're heading just a mile down the road to... Joel: Oh. [laughter] Chad: In-N-Out Burger with CollabWORK. With CollabWORK. So I'll be cheating on my diet and get over it. I'm getting a free animal style burger. Yes, Joel. I said free... Joel: I love it. Chad: In-N-Out Burger. Yep. So look for the CollabWORK team during the TA week events. They'll have stacks of these free cards that are for free In-N-Out burgers. And then again... SFX: That escalated quickly. Chad: Come to In-N-Out Burger. It's only about a mile down. We'll probably take a little walk, maybe Uber, have a little Chad and Cheese time, have a little animal style with your night and enjoy some time with the CollabWORK team. I'm pretty stoked. Joel: Double double with chopped peppers, fries well done, and a chocolate shake, that is what I'm talking about, Chad. Chad: Then we've got Transform, which is going to gonna happen in March. March 11th through 14th, where we're going to be at the win for Transform in Vegas. Our buddy EEOC Commissioner Keith Sonderling is going to gonna be there plus over 3000 attendees, 100 investors, 500 startups, 300 speakers. Damn! Joel: Damn. First time that we've been to transform and I... I'm fucking stoked. So if you guys are not a listener, listen up, go to chadcheese.com/events. If you're not going to these events, especially if you're in San Diego, go. If you're thinking about, I don't know, hitting a little Vegas time, go. Go to chadcheese.com/events and register. Joel: We're going to gonna be everywhere, guys. You're going to gonna be so sick of us when this is over. Oh, I can't. Chad: Topics. [music] Joel: Alright, Chad. LinkedIn is pissing off everybody. According to the sourcing community, LinkedIn has apparently made significant changes to public profiles removing headline about experience and education sections. This reduction could affect sourcing tools and competitors relying on LinkedIn data. While tools like Phantom Buster and Sales QL still work, LinkedIn X-Rays functionality is limited with some information, now inaccessible. Certain details such as school grades are no longer visible on public profiles. Of course, all of this drives people to LinkedIn's internal search, which requires a subscription to Recruiter, Recruiter Light or Sales Navigator for access to fuller data. This isn't a money grab is it, Chad? What are your thoughts on this news? Chad: So, after the HighQ ruling, how can anybody be surprised that this is happening? I mean, we were talking about this years ago when little bitty baby HighQ Labs was taking on LinkedIn for this same exact information grab. Right? So, the big question is, does the profile belong to... Does your profile belong to you or does it belong to LinkedIn? Well, LinkedIn won. HighQ got smashed and now, get ready, they're going to gonna be building higher walls in that wall of garden, which means higher prices. The question is, what will seek out, find them and higher EasyDo easy do if they're locked out or they get crunched with higher prices. Right? And let's face it, those platforms are superior search products compared to LinkedIn tools. So this feels like a very anti-competitive, very anti-innovation move by LinkedIn that, to be quite frank, we've all been waiting for. Will the vendors get locked out? Will prices go even higher? Hiring companies are already paying through the fucking nose when it comes to the recruiter seats. And we need competition in this space. We need new tools, we need new infrastructure, and this stifles all of that. Chad: But last but not least... [music] Chad: LinkedIn is going to say, "Hey, it's all about privacy." No. Bullshit. Don't buy the privacy excuse from LinkedIn when they throw it at you because that's bullshit. If LinkedIn was worried about privacy, they wouldn't be selling your data already. Okay? So, yes. This is really anti-competitive and I don't know. I'd be throwing the Microsoft name in there and I'd be going full antitrust. Joel: Sounds like you're wishing for our friend Elon to get his LinkedIn killer built in... Chad: No. I do not. Joel: In fast fashion. So that the trust issues go away or maybe Google could finally wake up and provide a product that's... Chad: No. Joel: That's competitive. I don't know. Yeah. Facebook, I don't know. Hey, TikTok, let China take over. Now, so higher prices for sure. No, like, you're gonna... People bitch about LinkedIn's pricing. Well, guess what? You're going to gonna really bitch when they go up next year. If I'm a service, like SeekOut, I'm really nervous. And we talk about a new relationship with Bill Gates and they're real friendly with Microsoft. Now, maybe there's a little hush hush deal where SeekOut will be okay, or they'll be able to access stuff like they normally are. Joel: But this clearly looks like a moat build, a monopoly grab by LinkedIn. And you can't blame them because everyone's letting them do it. Whether it's the justice system, the government, the consumers, this is where the... So number one on that is the prices are going to gonna go up. And unfortunately when we have monopolies, quality typically goes down. So don't expect a lot of innovation with those price increases, unfortunately at LinkedIn. Now, a little history lesson for the kids out there. Sourcing used to be this thing where the real freakazoids were doing it, right? The Shelleys, the Strouds, the Levy, like the Shannons. Joel: You'd go to these sessions in 2005 about 80 search engines to use that no one knows about to find people. And then, eventually, solutions were created to take the brainiac freakazoid sourcer out of the picture. Basically, you can be a common person, not know anything about boolean searches, and you can find people with our database. And that worked really well as long as LinkedIn played the game. LinkedIn's not playing the game anymore, so not only are the vendors gonna be at risk, but the people who are sourcers in quote, but not really sourcers like the Steve Levys of the world, what are they gonna do when they actually have to learn what those folks know? So I think we're gonna go back to the future where the freaks and geeks at SourceCon are now gonna be the ones that rule the world, 'cause you look at posters starting to go about, okay, LinkedIn has fucked us. How do we get around it? How do we do searches on Google and other places to like circumvent what's on LinkedIn? Joel: Because we all know LinkedIn's not gonna block Google's search or spiders 'cause they still need to be on linked or Google searches. So that's one thing. I think if you can leverage Google, like these folks know, then you're probably gonna be safe in terms of LinkedIn. So my points were simply like, we were super geeky. Then not so much, we're going back super geeky. Prices are going up, and I think if you're heading SourceCon, and I recently did a show with our friend Jim Strout, I think there's gonna be an escalated interest in what is sourcing tools and tricks and things are going out there, because a lot of people are gonna freak out when things they get from LinkedIn, they can't get anymore. Chad: Yeah. I think it's interesting because a lot of these tools probably have a database built that was LinkedIn in the first place. Now, the big difference is being able to enrich those profiles moving forward. But at least you have a base of information. This is going to, I believe, and I hope actually push the rest of it, the industry to stop being so fucking lazy, okay? We've talked about this several times. I remember talking to Gary Zukowski when he created TweetMyJobs, way back in the day when we were blasting jobs on Twitter. I asked Gary, I was like, "What happens, dude, if Twitter just cuts you off?" He's like, "Well, I'm fucked." [laughter] Chad: The exact same type of scenario. If you lean that hard on any other platform that you don't own or you don't have control over, you put yourself in this situation. So what this is going to do is it's gonna do a couple of different things. First and foremost, a lot of those bigger platforms already have the data. The question is, how do they now flip it into something that can be more enriching? And then we've gotta take a look at infrastructure, building new infrastructure. We've talked about that with CV Wallet. There's another reason to be able to escalate and amplify that type of platform. And last but not least, now, maybe employers, when they get stuck with this new bill, they'll start looking at who's actually using the platform, right? And they'll cut their seats in half. Joel: And hopefully this encourages or motivates employers to look at their own database that they've probably spent millions of dollars to build. That is their own little LinkedIn that they can access, as well as upskilling, training their folks so they don't leave, keeping retention high, getting off the teeth of LinkedIn is a good thing for everybody. Trust me, that evil, evil LinkedIn. SFX: I am as mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take this anymore. Joel: All right, let's go into some money and acquisition news, shall we? First up, England's Huler, I hardly even know her, has secured 1.5 million pounds in funding. The startup is a SaaS platform promising to simplify employee communications, and information access, emphasizing the goal of making work simple in the era of hybrid and remote work. The funding along with a previous round in December '22 brings Huler's total funding to 3.5 million pounds. Chad, your thoughts on Huler. Chad: Huler is doing for employee engagement through tying these atrocious UIs together or the HCM stack, let's say what Poetry is looking to do for recruiter enablement. So Adam Gordon, who we talked about earlier, happy birthday, he's building a recruiter desktop that pretty much pulls together all those different platforms so that a recruiter just has one place to go. This is a little bit deeper down the rabbit hole on the human capital management side of the house. And all of those platforms pretty much have shit UI. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Some might have halfways decent, but together, they're just horrible. So to be able to tie together great employee engagement is incredibly key in employee experience, and then in employee engagement. So I think platforms like this are incredibly smart, as we've talked about it for years, is it smart trying to become the platform that rules them all? No, I have pivoted from that hard. It is the platform that ties together all of the other platforms. It's a hell of a lot easier to build. It's not easy, but it's easier to build. And from a fluidity standpoint, tech debt standpoint, it's easier to maintain. Joel: Yeah. So this largely feels like a feature to a lot of businesses, I think, that have money that can buy products like this, you look at, you mentioned Adam Gordon. Look, this is a great product. To give employees a tool where they can take everything that they wanna know, whether it's education, other employee activities, you name it, they can bring it in one platform, they can kind of customize that to whatever they want. Being a remote or hybrid workforce, people are not in the office like they used to be. So a tool like this makes a lot of sense. I just think the goal of this company is not to be a product, but more of a feature that an ATS or a paradox potentially could create as an extension of what they are already doing. So, not a ton of money, not a lot of heat here, but I think potentially, an acquisition play in the next 48 to 72 months. Chad: I think it's genius, to be quite frank. You've got all these different UIs that are shit, you tie them together, and you make them beautiful, and that's how you get people to actually use your platforms. And that's one of the issues that we have adoption for many of the users that are out there. Why? Because it's clunky, it's shitty, it's horrible. If you have them go through the same experience, and it's nice and it's fluid. Again, we're humans. We like to look at pretty stuff. This just makes it a lot easier. Joel: All right. Ceridian, a small little company, you may have heard of them, is set to acquire Alumni, a learning experience platform provider. The move aligns with the growing global learning management system market estimated to reach 55 billion by 2032. Chad, your thoughts on this move by Ceridian. Chad: So, we're gonna start to see big lumbering systems like Ceridian gobble up other proven platforms like Alumni as a way to eject pieces, parts of their old tech into the ether. So instead of ditching an old system and building from the ground up, Ceridian is amputating a limb, and replacing it with a bionic limb. So the hard part is when Ceridian has to replace the heart of the system, because you can replace all the limbs, but the core, the heart that drives everything, that's gonna be the hard part. So what we're seeing here is a basic evolution. I like the whole $6 million man kinda scenario, but you still have to replace the core someday. How are they going to do that? That's going to be the hard part for Ceridian, but very smart. Joel: Totally agree. Look, we've talked on many episodes about this being the year of M&A. You're gonna have a lot of companies that have run out of money. A lot of startups are like, what's our next move? Raising money isn't what it was like in 2021. It's not flowing like it was. So our next move is probably an acquisition. So for these guys, a Ceridian makes perfect sense for Ceridian. It makes perfect sense as well. We talked about LinkedIn having more control, so bringing stuff back in upskilling, educating, retaining employees in the way that Alumni's product does, makes total sense. And we're gonna have a lot of stories like this going into the future. Probably, a little bit of an Acquihire as well. Big companies can bring really good employees, startup founders, et cetera to the company for a pretty small price tag from what they would normally have to do. Joel: Anyway, by the way, the market Wall Street loved this move. The stock was up quite a bit after the announcement. So Wall Street as well, likes what Ceridian is doing in addition to Chad and Cheese. All right, next up, New York based FinTech Daily Pay has raised $75 million in equity financing, and the company secured a $100 million expansion of its credit facility. The latest equity raise, valued Daily Pay at $1.75 billion on a pre-money basis, marking a 75% increase. Chad: Wow. Joel: Yeah. Daily pay, which offers an on-demand pay solution for corporate plans to use the funds to accelerate product development and expand into new markets and categories. Chad, your thoughts on getting paid daily? Chad: So this is Ceridian's next acquisition. Joel: That's a bigger acquisition. Yeah. Chad: Yes, it's a big core next gen pay system. Let's say ADP. You wanna add, again, these next gen pay systems to your stack. And again, you get rid of that old system. You put on the new system or you obviously use it in conjunction with, but at the end of the day, this is literally just an upgrade in your capabilities. And this, we're gonna see it over and over and over as these big monolith systems start to replace old, dilapidated tech. Joel: So, when Chad and I were growing up, if we wanted to watch a show, let's call it Married with Children. We wanted to watch Al Bundy and Kelly and the gang, we had to wait. We had to wait a week till the show came out. If it wasn't in season, we had to wait four months, five months for the new season to come out. Nobody thinks like that anymore. People think, I wanna watch this. Like, give it to me now. Whether I'm on the go, I'm at home, wherever, I want it right now. Chad: On demand. Joel: And pay is no different. My 17-year-old gets paid every two weeks, and on that two week, like sort of milestone, because it goes in his savings, which I control, he's on my ass asking about where's my money, bitch? He should be getting paid daily or whenever he wants after he works a shift. This is just a sign of the times, and this is where stuff is going. I think additionally, this is gonna be the brand that is the coke of the sort of daily pay on demand solutions. They're talking about IPO in 2025. I totally, like... When you are at 75% increase in valuation, clearly you have told a story that says, "We are going to grow immensely in the next year." Chad: Next gen baby. Yeah, it is. Joel: So say those nuggets, we don't give stock advice, but this is a stock that is gonna be one I think that will excite a lot of people, 'cause it goes beyond recruiting. It's like a lifestyle. This is a change. This is a sea change in how people are paid, and good on them. Good on them. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Excited, exciting company and looking forward to talking about them more in the future. Alright. Bold.com, BOLD, has acquired FlexJobs. Terms were not disclosed. FlexJobs, based in Colorado, and founded in 2007, offers a database of remote and flexible job listings that are hand-screened for legitimacy. The brand is expected to be preserved under Bold.com's ownership. Chad, your thoughts? Chad: I think the hand screen thing's gonna go away. And bold.com, that's a great domain... Joel: It's not bad. Chad: But I've never heard of these guys, have you? Joel: Out of Puerto Rico. How often do we talk about a Puerto Rican company? Chad: 700 global employees. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Just amazing. Anyway, FlexJobs launched in 2006 with a single round of funding and before a remote and hybrid was really a thing. So they waited patiently and they got their payday. And we talk a lot about startups on this show, but I'd like to say there are amazing smaller job sites and recruitment tools that have been around for years, that provide great services, and more importantly, clear mad cash every month. Not every company has to go public to be successful, so kudos to Sarah Sutton and FlexJobs. And it'd be interesting to see what Bold actually does to the site, 'cause I can guarantee you there's not gonna be hand-ringing or shifting or sifting or any of that that's gonna be happening. They're gonna make this more of an inefficient platform. Joel: Yeah, it's a curious acquisition. I remember FlexJobs when they launched back when I was writing GSAT, and it was sort of lack of better word, it was kind of bold at the time, you know, laptops, wifi at the coffee shop. We just started thinking about working remotely and being flexible with... Particularly mothers working from home, and then going like, it was a cute idea, and it took like technology where it is today, the pandemic for these guys really to get any kind of exposure. I think it was almost a lifestyle business. I don't know them that well. So this felt like they've been in business for almost 20 years. There was no big swings. There was no big raises. Even when they could've in 2021, a site called FlexJobs that had been around since the mid aughts could have raised money. No joke. Joel: So to me, this felt like a lifestyle business maybe after 20 years. She said it's time to move on, and there was a relationship there for whatever reason, and Bold came knocking. Really strange company out of Puerto Rico. I think they have Warsaw, Poland office, and somewhere else. So we should dig in a little more about bold.com and what they're doing, 'cause it is a great domain, and maybe they've just been under the radar. But yeah, this is kind of a curious one. It's not one of those round pegs in a round hole that makes sense to us. It's a little bit interesting. So yeah, I got nothing else but that. Chad: She might have enough money banked that she can just go off and do whatever the hell she wants for the rest of her life. A lot of these smaller job sites, they're raking in cash because they have low amount of employees. Not much overhead, and they are making money hand over fist with regard to obviously in proportionality of having a very small staff. Joel: Sure. Chad: So being able to sock away cash, hell, she might, who knows, she might be one of the richest people we don't know. Joel: Yeah. These are the frozen yogurt shops in your local community. The entrepreneur that has five shops and is banking $10 million net pay every year. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. It totally could be... Chad: Success baby. Joel: A story like that. Look, she was the first one, flexible job, so she had companies early 'cause she was the only game in town kind of doing this. They probably stuck with her for 20 years and then she ended up getting new customers, and maybe she said, "Screw it, I'm out. I'm done after 20 years." So good on her, if that's the case. Chad: Congrats to Sarah. Joel: Another person having a good week is President Joe Biden. Let's talk about him after the break. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Alright, Chad, let's talk about Uncle Joe. The United Auto Workers have endorsed President Joe Biden for reelection. Despite earlier resistance, the endorsement comes after Biden's support during a UAW picket line. Union boss, Shawn Fain criticized former President Trump, emphasizing Biden's commitment to the American worker. Another Biden news, robocalls went out ahead of the New Hampshire election, featuring Joe Biden's voice, and I put voice in quotes there, telling people to save their vote for November in the general election, and to skip the primary. Clearly, AI's evil hand at work. Chad, your thoughts on all things Joe, this week. Chad: Well, I thought it was pretty amazing. He wasn't even on the ballot in New Hampshire. You had to write him in, and he still won 75% of the votes. Joel: Yep. Chad: That's pretty fucking big. But when it comes to the robocall stuff, kids, strap it on, 'cause we're just getting started. The election cycle will have people questioning what's real and what's not. We, the Chad and Cheese Podcast, we're working with a reputable company, Veritone, who cloned our voices for use in Portuguese, German, Spanish, and French versions of this show. But some platforms allow you to upload any voice or video, no matter if you have rights or not. So this is just the beginning, and a lot of these AI companies are saying, well they're using the impersonators defense. Well, for years, we've had voice impersonators doing this. Chad: Well, okay, we're going to have to draw a line somewhere on where somebody owns their voice, they own their likeness, because this is going to get way, way, way out of the field very quickly. And when it comes to the UAW, the first president to join a picket line, Trump went to a non-union shop and talked shit about the Union. [laughter] So what did you expect Shawn Fain to do? And what did you expect him to do? He's already... Motherfucker's already got a chip on his shoulder as it is. And he said, Donald Trump stands against everything we stand for as a society. SFX: That escalated quickly. Chad: Damn, that's big. Now, the UAW isn't as big as they used to be, but they are on a march to get bigger. Joel: So on the the election side, we kind of talked about this that hit, sort of Biden being the figurehead and doing at least the optics of that were very positive for him. And either one of us or both of us said, look, if the UAW ends up winning this, and Biden is attached to it, it's gonna be huge for the election in Joe Biden. And here we are, right? Here we are with the endorsement. Let's make it official. Some critics said it took longer than they thought. And my guess is there's some sort of backroom negotiation, like sort of knowing how Shawn Fain operates, there might've been some real like screw it in some negotiation tactics to get something that he wanted or the union wanted. Joel: So look, news media outlets are great about, "Hey, here's the national poll. Trump is leading, it's closing the gap." People in this country, and particularly outside of the country, who is president, is basically a decision that five or so states make. And within those five or so states, it's a few precincts and counties that decide who the president is. So when you hear like national polls, who cares? It's not a popular vote, right? There's a system here, and Michigan is one of those states that's gonna decide who the president is in 2024. And Chad, as you mentioned, the Union is smaller than it used to be. Joel: However, there are old union guys and girls that may not be working, but still respect the union. There are families that are attached to these workers. So, take each worker and maybe plus five if you include family and again, whatever. So, if Fain and the Union can bring Michigan to Biden, that may be game over for the presidency. So, this is really, really huge to me for the election of 2024. Now on the AI, yeah, strap on, buckle up, bend over, whatever you wanna use. Chad: Yeah. Get ready kids. Joel: But this is just starting, man. And I can tell you, people my dad's age, our parents' age will have no clue. When they get a call from Joe Biden or Donald Trump, they're gonna freak out thinking it's really Donald Trump or Joe Biden. They won't know. By the way, governor's races, Senate races, congressional races, you don't have to be president to do this. And somebody going to call from their local congressman, you're like, "Oh shit, I've heard him on TV or heard on the news. And wow, you're really calling me?" People will not put the two and two together. Joel: So, this is super dangerous. And when you look at... Trump has been pretty clear on Ukraine funding, getting out of that situation. So, if I'm Vladimir Putin, I'm calling all my cyber punks and saying like, "How do we get people persuaded to get Trump in office?" He's also been very anti-NATO in many respects. So, Russia is going to be on the offensive on this. And by the way, who owns TikTok? Oh, the Chinese. Well, the Chinese might have a vested interest in Russia benefiting from who gets an office and what happens there. So, I foresee some crazy stuff. 80% of it won't get reported or noticed. It'll be calls to grandma that no one hears or sees. It'll be like a social media post to a newly 18-year-old that doesn't know any better. This is going to get really bad and it'll be a problem we have to address in 2028. It may potentially like rock the election this year. I'm a little scared, frankly. Chad: Well, I mean, we saw what social media did with Cambridge Analytica. And that is nothing compared to this shit. So, yeah, we shall see. And it's not just the Biden voices or the Trump voices, we're talking about celebrities that people know and love and whatnot, right? Who might have a high ranking or rating or what have you. You're just not sure. So, be aware, kids. Be aware. Joel: Yeah, it's gonna be crazy. All right, shit. All right, from one car crash to another. The future of Sports Illustrated is uncertain as publisher The Arena Group lost the license for the iconic US sports periodical slash magazine. The Arena Group, which had a 10-year licensing deal with owner Authentic Brands Group, reportedly missed a $3.7 million payment leading to the termination of the agreement. As a result, Arena announced layoffs for almost all SI staff. This comes after SI was discovered publishing pieces under fake author names, speaking of naughty AI, and profile images that were generated by AI for the quote-unquote authors. The future of SI remains uncertain, pending negotiations within the next 90 days. Chad, your take on SI and frankly, what may be a sign of things to come for media in general? Chad: Yeah, I think SI is dead at this point. And a lot of this has to do with failed business models. It doesn't have to do with content. Okay? And that's one of the things that we have to understand is that I don't believe that Bard or Chad GPT has what is necessary to make these publications rock and roll. 'Cause let's say, for instance, like SI was a staple for anyone who cared deeply about sports. How did you know what somebody loved sports? Well, you went to their house and you saw that they had a Sports Illustrated on the coffee table. They had a subscription. Joel: SI had thoughtful and knowledgeable journalists that had deep connections into teams, scouts, players, leadership. They knew what was going on. They had the DNA of sports, right? Bard's not gonna have that. Chad GPT is not gonna have that. And this is just, we're just going to talk about a microcosm of sports for all of journalism. This is the key. The tech doesn't have these types of connections, right? These relationships, these insiders or the experience. So for me, I really think that what we have to do, especially from a journalism and news outlets standpoint, is we have to take a look at these new business models because if we do lean heavy into Chad GPT and Bard or any large language model, it's just gonna all start coming out as generic shit. Chad: And that's what's gonna happen. It's kind of like music for a while on adult contemporary radio stations. It sounded like the same shit over and over and over. That's what's gonna happen. So I think we'll take a look at business models, change business models, and people will still have a role. Joel: I cannot underestimate how important Sports Illustrated was to my childhood. Only Playboy as a magazine had more of an impact on who I was. Chad: Talking about the swimsuit edition. Is that what you're talking about? Joel: Well, yeah, just that one. No. Although I didn't have to sneak SI from my dad to check it out. All you kids on Pornhub, remember how lucky you are to have on-demand porn. Anyway, I used to cut out the covers and put them on my wall. I remember Celtic Pride with Larry Bird putting on the wall. Anyway, it was a staple in my upbringing. They just didn't change with the times. We've got Barstool and other online components. You have sites and services like that that have now given us Pat McAfee and celebrities that are now putting content out that is more digestible, fun, controversial, etcetera. Joel: And there's just less room for real journalism. But I do think that more and more of this automated content creation, even if it's a hybrid of like, hey, we have enough stories that look human and are nuanced enough that we can throw in this crap and just keep the Google gods happy by creating content. So SI is just sort of the tip of the iceberg, the canary in the coal mine. I think this is going to be a story that we continue to talk about. I know the LA Times had a big layoff, I think, this week. So we're gonna see local papers. And by the way, local news media has been gutted. These political stories locally, the Castro congressman, local media knew about that. They just couldn't get it out. There wasn't a paper that everyone read that they could learn about this guy. Chad: It's all business model. It's all business model. They were paid by the fucking classifieds, which are dead. If they would have found a different stream of revenue, we would not be having this discussion. It's business model, period. Joel: It's too late. Chad: This is all great stuff. I don't think it's too late. I think there could be a revival. Joel: I love your optimism. I love your optimism. Chad: That's why I'm here. Joel: Listen to an ad and we'll be right back, people. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: All right, Chad, can I interest you in some Google as our final story? Chad: Oh, yes, please. Weird. Joel: Little pivot there. I wanted to talk about a farting airline passenger, but Chad wanted to talk about Google. So here we go. Chad: Sorry listeners, sorry. Joel: Google is attempting to reduce its workforce in South Korea, but some employees are refusing to resign. About 10 out of roughly 800 workers in Seoul accepted the company's suggestion to resign, but Korean labor laws may protect them from dismissal without just cause. Google has faced industry-wide layoffs leading to the formation of a union of 100 workers in Korea to address job security concerns. The union aims to negotiate voluntary resignations with the company rather than workers accepting recommended resignations from Big G. Chad, what are your thoughts on what sounds like an action movie from the 80s? Bruce Willis needs to come in and save these workers. What you got? Chad: We just heard Brittany earlier during shout outs talk about, well, because you over hired, now you fucked me. Bloating staff is purely irresponsible. We've seen all these companies who... A lot of the FANG companies, they bloated their ranks because they had the money to, and because they obviously trying to steal or at least keep great talent away from their competitors. That's irresponsible. They were bloating their ranks, hiring staff to keep them away from your competitors. That's anti-competitive. That is totally anti-competitive. Chad: So what has Google done here in America? Well, like all the other FANG companies, they just go to a pure layoff. If we had a system like this, they couldn't do that. They couldn't do that. They would have to be responsible. What do we do to ensure that companies like Google become responsible and curb anti-competitive measures? Well, it sounds like countries like South Korea and France have the answer. There are consequences to business actions, but unfortunately, the consequences only fall on the employee, not the employer. These types of measures would make companies think twice about who they hire, how they hire, and being more responsible. We focus way too much on the shareholder, although in this case, this brings the shareholder and the stakeholder together. We have to focus on the shareholder and we have to focus on the stakeholder, the employees, because if we don't, we might just have to keep them around. Joel: Come on, Google. Come on, Google. Chad: It's fucking awesome. Joel: So culturally, whether you agree or not, America is really good at firing people. There are very little government regulations... Chad: Not CEOs, though. Joel: Yeah. Well, yes. There are golden parachutes that workers typically don't get, but we are really good at hiring fast and firing fast. And when American companies take that mentality to Europe, parts of Asia, etcetera, and they think they can just lay off people, I love these suggestions. We're suggesting that you leave the company immediately. Chad: Yeah, you resign. Joel: Culturally, it just doesn't vibe with what Americans consider. And American companies need to start thinking, hey, if we're setting up shop in this country, what are we getting into? To Chad's point, let's slow down the hiring. Let's be thoughtful around this, because it's going to be really hard to fire these people if we make a mistake. Chad: Do that here. Joel: Oh, that's not gonna happen here. Chad: Do that here. Joel: No, it ain't happening. Chad: That's so much bullshit, though. Joel: There's no government reality that I could ever think about in America where we turn into something like that. Chad: Yeah, 'cause we don't give a shit about our employees. That's the problem. Joel: Yeah. All right, Chad, I'm pulling an audible. I'm talking about the farting guy on the airlines. Okay. Real quickly, an American Airlines flight from Phoenix to Austin was reportedly delayed when a passenger loudly passed gas and engaged in a confrontational exchange with others. [laughter] The incident led to the plane returning to the gate and the gassy passenger was removed from the flight. The confrontation caused a delay of up to 30 minutes. I mean, what a butthole. You know what I'm saying? Am I right? Can we all just breathe a sigh of relief that this issue came to a close? And by the way, when is Elon going to take us all to Uranus? We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Chase podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

In this episode, we discuss the acquisition of Pento, a Copenhagen-born payroll automation platform, by HiBob, an Israeli-based HRIS. The terms of the deal remain undisclosed, but the acquisition aims to create an all-in-one solution, streamlining the entire payroll workflow. Founded in 2017, Pento had raised around $54 million. The acquisition is expected to save time for various teams by simplifying the traditionally cumbersome payroll process. We also delve into the latest earnings reports from various companies in the HR and recruiting industry. Recruit Holdings reported a decrease in revenue due to a contraction in hiring activities in the U.S. and Europe. DHI Group, the owners of Dice and Clearance Jobs, experienced a decline in revenue, primarily driven by a decrease in revenue from Dice. Randstad reported a drop in revenue, attributing it to global economic uncertainty. Monster revenue was also down. Despite a roaring U.S. economy, these companies are facing challenges, including upskilling, less job-hopping, and the need for internal networking. In other news, the Biden administration announced a $5 billion investment to support research and development in advanced computer chips. This initiative aims to reverse the decline in the U.S. semiconductor manufacturing industry and boost domestic production of advanced semiconductors. However, companies are struggling to adapt quickly enough to a convergence of tech, generational turnover, and the fast pace of change. About 44% of workers' skills are set to be disrupted in the next five years, and about 60% of workers will require training in the next three years. Jobster, the company behind the world's first predictive job advertising platform, is making a comeback. Jobster, first famous in the mid-2000s, is now back under new ownership. The return of Jobster could signal a new programmatic ad solution in the job market. Lastly, Neon Money Club, a fintech platform, has launched a new dating app called Score, which requires users to have a credit score of at least 675. Users who are denied access will be directed to resources to improve their financial literacy and credit scores. The app has received mixed reactions due to its exclusionary nature, with some viewing it as aspirational and others seeing it as perpetuating class divides. Neon Money Club has raised over $10 million in venture capital and is the first Black-owned tech business to launch a credit card with AMEX. Intro: Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Jean podcast. [music] Joel: Ohhhh yeah. The two guys who should have been the ones interviewing Vladimir Putin. What's up, kids? You are listening to the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Rasputin Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad. One-arm bandit, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, Bob buys a Pento, Jobster is back, and Neon Money Club wants you to score. Let's do this. Welcome back Chad, we missed you last week. For our listeners that don't know, man, what was up? Chad: After years of sports and military and fighting and all that shit, my shoulder's fucked up. I got a slap tear, I got rotator cuff stuff, I need a bicep ligament thing. So my doctor said, hey, you'll be good, you'll be good, but you'll probably have to get it done in 10 years. I'm like, oh no, fuck that. I'm getting that shit done now. I'm getting it done now. So that's what I had done. Joel: And was this outpatient? Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: That sounds like a lot of stuff. Biceps, shoulder? Chad: I came home, they did a shoulder block on me, so if you do any type of shoulder surgery whatsoever, if they ask you if you want a shoulder block, say yes. That's a definite. But I had a shoulder block done, I came home, the shoulder block wore off, I thought I was gonna be in major pain. I literally have not taken any pain meds. The modern medical establishment is wonderful, at least right now, knock on wood. But I wanna thank Serge for stepping in for me. That was nice of him on a short notice. Joel: Yeah, did you appreciate his Chad impersonation? Chad: I did, no, I appreciate that. Joel: Gotcha. So a nerve block is what I should ask for. Chad: Yeah, it was just literally, there's a bundle, a nerve bundle there, and they just hit it with a bunch of pain blocker. Joel: So not the cock block is what you're saying. Chad: No, that's what you're used to, but no, I would go beyond that. Yes. Oh. [laughter] Joel: You're bad, you're so bad, you're so bad. All right, well, I hope you're okay to watch the game. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: The big Super Bowl. [overlapping conversation] Joel: What was your take? America needs to know what your takeaway was from the game. Chad: Yeah, I mean, my prediction was a lazy prediction, 21-28 Kansas City. Kansas City ended up winning 22-25. It was a defensive struggle. The first quarter was brutal. I mean, they were filling each other out. It was like a first date in a Pinto. I mean, at the drive-in. But Mahomes, he had 333 yards, eight different receivers, none of those receivers went over 100 yards. Mahomes was the rushing leader for Kansas City. Then Brock Purdy, for the 49ers, he had eight different receivers. None of them went over 100 yards. McCaffrey didn't even get 100 yards. So, I mean, that just told you how damn good those defenses were. Those quarterbacks, premier quarterbacks. And I mean, Purdy is, he's a new kid. But he's playing damn good ball. And they had to do a lot. And they had to use a lot to be able to win, especially Kansas City. Joel: So game-wise, I didn't think it'd be high scoring. I predicted 24-21. So 22-25 is pretty damn close to being exact. But I didn't... People were saying like 38-34. I said, I don't think it's gonna be, these are good defenses. Chad: Yes. Joel: I just always thought that, and this is what the best quarterbacks do when the game is on the line, when it's like, you gotta get the first down, you gotta get, like Mahomes is that guy. And when you said the rushing yards, it was that rush he had on third down, I think, that really put him in position to make the move at the end. So it was a great game. You don't see many overtimes. That was awesome. There was a lot of criticism of Romo at the end, who started like mansplaining overtime, and didn't give like the color guy the chance to really call the play, sort of a la bird steals the ball, something like really historic. So that was kind of funny for me, Romo-wise. What did you think of the commercials? Chad: You know what, I hated the fucking commercials and here's why. It seemed like they never stopped, is like CBS was, they were using their commentators and their early NFL show guys to do commercials too. So you never knew when you're in a commercial, and you're like, oh fuck, it's another commercial. So it's like they never stopped. And it's one thing that I've noticed in watching a lot of European football, is like they don't have commercials, hardly at all. So when they start watching American football, they fucking freak out, because it's nothing but commercials. And that's what I felt like. I was like, Jesus, this is the first time I've actually watched a Super Bowl where I didn't wanna see more commercials. Usually I wanna see the commercials because they're spending so much money, so much brain power. This time I'm like, fuck, this is horrible, stop this. Just play the fucking game. Joel: Well again, that's defenses. So when it's all three and out, you go to a commercial break, and then they're going to commercial breaks because the defense has played so well. I agree that they just sort of bled together. Like every time you looked up, there was more commercials. There wasn't a lot of I'm on the tip of my seat waiting for more commercials. But I will say like, I did love the BMW walk-in, talking like walk-in, partly because he's part of our show, technically. I did love the DeVito-Arnold reunion a la Twins in the state font, like a good neighbor. Oh, no it's neighbour. That way pretty good. Chad: Yeah, neighbor, no neighbor, neighbor. Joel: I felt like Bud Light got it right with comedy. That's what they should be doing, making us laugh. So the beer genie, then they threw in Peyton Manning like they should have, like he doesn't belong here, but now he is, as opposed to like, he's throwing Bud Lights to people. And then I did love, because you and I both really liked a few years back, the Audi commercial with the girl who was the race car driver. Like I certainly choked up. And this year, Dove had their Hard Knocks commercial where they talked about girls and being very conscious about the way they look and their bodies, and that 45% of girls leave sports by the age of 14. And Stella has gotten out of volleyball, oddly enough, at the age of 14. And I know Emma also, at a similar age, got out of soccer. So that kind of hit home for me, like, oh, am I missing something? Like obviously we're blind to everything. So I thought, oh man, is this a thing? So it got me really thinking, which most commercials do not. So shout out to those commercials. The halftime show, I don't know what to think of that. It was so over the top, I liked it, but then it was so over the top that I'm like, damn, just play the songs, man. He's on roller skates, he's taking his shirt off, he's got like an ab shirt that glows in the dark. Chad: I thought he was gonna totally bite it, dude. So when he came out at first and he had that, like, the mic that he had on wasn't working, and then he did a change, and then he had a handheld mic, because they're like, your shit's not working, here's a handheld mic. Then everything, I think, was awesome since then. Luda came on, I mean, you just had, I really liked it. And usually I'm not a big halftime show guy, other than Prince, Prince does, his halftime show was the best of all time, period. But I liked it. Joel: Yeah, if you're gonna do one up on Usher and skates, you gotta do high heels with Prince in a rainstorm. Like, how he didn't slip blows me away. Chad: Fucking pro, dude. Joel: I liked it because I couldn't take my eyes off of it. Usually on these things, like, I'll kinda look away, and if I know a song I like, I'll check it. I was glued, who's next, who's coming up, what's gonna blow, like, what's gonna happen. So all around it was A plus Super Bowl, I think, from the game to the, you hate the commercials, so that'll be a ding on you, but the halftime show was all, it was all good, it was all good. It's like a weekly show of Chad and Cheese. You only get it once a year. Chad: Yes, yes. But you only get it once a year. I've also gotten spoiled, because when I'm in Europe, I watch all the games in their, like, encapsulated form on YouTube, so they're like 13 minutes long. And now I'm getting kind of like in that no commercial kind of vibe. But yeah, no, it was a great game. I really enjoyed the game. I love defensive battles. Joel: All right, let's get to some shout outs. SFX: Shout outs! Joel: We've got some show to do here, Sowash, and there's a lot to talk about. I'm gonna start with Waymo. Chad, yes, the robots, the automated beings among us took another hit last week. Waymo, the self-driving car owned by Google, I don't know if you saw this, was set on fire by some rabble rousers in San Francisco. It's Lunar New Year. San Francisco has a very large Chinese population. Apparently, the car got confused by the fireworks that were going off. I can't blame the developers for not planning on fireworks and sort of planning for that, but the car stopped, got confused. People said, let's break windows, let's set fireworks off in the car, which then set the car on fire, and there's tons of images and video, like people were taking tons of video. Everyone was really good about hiding their face, so everyone's kind of onto the self-journalistic trend that's going on. But damn, Waymo, man, that sucks, and we keep talking about this, whether it's the janitorial Walmart robot that someone takes a Louisville slug or two, or the wheeled food delivery robots that people steal food out of and take a Domino's and ride around town. I mean, this is a problem. This is a big problem. This is why we can't have nice things, people. Chad: It's exactly why we can't have nice things. Son of a bitch, man. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, you think robots are gonna take over? I don't think so, because we got people with baseball bats. Okay, my shout out goes to our favorite Scott. SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, if it's no Scottish, it's crap. Chad: That is Stephen McGrath for starting a new position as Product Experience Manager, I have no fucking clue what that means, at Poetry on March 1st. And I'd like to say, Adam Gordon, my friend, for the love of God and all that's holy, please get Stephen off the damn couch and get him to work. Joel: Yeah, what's Stephen's title again? How many bottles of scotch should they go through before coming up with that? Chad: Product Experience Manager, so PXM. Joel: Sure, sure, I like it. Almost as good as Stephen McGrath's videos in getting him off the couch in a new opportunity. It's free stuff from Chad and Cheese, that's right, Chad. We're giving away t-shirts, we're giving away bourbon. Our friends at Tex Colonel are sponsoring that endeavor. Free beer from Aspen Tech Labs. We got our winners from the month to announce. We got John Middleton was our whiskey winner, Roy Schumacher of Aaron is the beer winner, and Scott Stam celebrated a birthday this month, Chad, and I don't know if I mentioned, but if it's your birthday month, you could win a bottle of rum from our friends at Plum. SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: Congratulations, Scott Stam for winning a nice bottle of rum you could be the next winner, but you gotta play if you wanna win. You gotta head out to chadcheese.com and click the free link and fill it out. Fill out the form and there's your chance to win. Also celebrating a birthday this week goes to listeners Andrew Mall, Jenny, JCK, New Earth, Charles Bretts, Laura Washington, Jim Carragher, Ted Grunewald, Nicole, Nancy McKeon, Farrah Fawcett-Reeves, Allie McBeal-Mergest, Kevin Burgess, Kristi Turnley, and Charlottes Web Ulvros, our friend out in Sweden, celebrating a birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: So have one on us, everybody. Chad: Very nice. Well, it's also time for events. We're getting ready to go out to Vegas for Transform March 11th through 14th, where we're going to be at the win. We're talking about over 3000 attendees, 100 plus investors, more than 500 startups, and over 300 speakers. Not to mention, we were just talking about free. Oh, yeah, we're giving away free tickets. Five free tickets to Transform. Just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Win Free Tickets button. SFX: Oops, winning. Chad: Win free tickets. And then register for free stuff while you're at it. Then we're going to Europe, Amsterdam, kids. [music] Chad: Yes, we're hopping on a plane. And yes, this is the official eRecruitment Congress Kibu synthesizer playlist. Joel: Is Jan Hammer not available? Is that? [laughter] Chad: Have to ask Lieven. Have to ask Lieven. He's really excited that this synthesizer guy is going to Kibu, I'm sorry, Kibu, is going to close out the session. But on March 19th, it's the eRecruitment Congress in Amsterdam, where the knowledge will be flowing. And from my understanding, so will the Belgian beer that Lieven will be bringing in a barrel or barrels. It's a full day in Amsterdam dedicated to filling your brain pan with knowledge around the AI shift in recruitment and technology. Just go to chadcheese.com/events. And guess what? Joel: What? Chad: For that event, there's also a discount code. Joel: There is? Chad: Yes. Joel: Where can I find that discount code, Chad? Chad: He wasn't very happy. It's on chadcheese.com/events. We made Lieven give us a discount code. He was not happy. They're very frugal over there in Belgium. Just go to chadcheese.com/events in the header. You're actually going to see the discount code. Register, use the discount code, ba-bam, discount. Joel: We threatened to make him drink a Heineken in Amsterdam. And he said, no, I'll give you the code. I'll give you the code. Don't make me drink a Heineken, Jesus. Chad: You're welcome, you're welcome. Joel: By the way, unleash, get Magic Johnson to speak in terms of events. Like that's huge. Chad: That's big. Joel: That's huge. Can we get an interview with Magic? [music] SFX: Stop it! Joel: Questions for Magic. Chad: I've got breaking news. I've got breaking news. Joel: What? Chad: Just coming over on the phone right before we started. Apparently, SmartRecruiters botched an acquisition. That's right. Smart recruiters botched an acquisition. I just received that news from several sources. The acquisition of SmartRecruiters last minute fell through. So to be clear, SmartRecruiters, the applicant tracking system, was looking at being acquired by another applicant tracking system, and it fell through. So this literally just dropped in my lap, and that's all the information I have. And we have reported that many key leaders on the SmartRecruiter staff have left over the past few months. So the question is, since this deal fell through, are they going to reorg? What are they going to do? Because they have to do something to pivot from this botched acquisition. Joel: So just to be clear, this wasn't an acquisition they made and announced but then fell through in the final hour. They were going to get acquired. SmartRecruiters were going to get acquired, which would have been probably our lead story had that happened. And we don't know who it was. That was the acquirer. Chad: It was another applicant tracking system. That's all I know. Joel: It wasn't a merger thingy. We're like two similar size, let's snuggle up. So the asteroid that hit us can kill us more slowly. What do they do? Obviously, I don't know what caused the deal to fall through. I mean, in these things, it could be as easily as a personality difference. So if the business is okay, and worth a look, there's no question these ATSs are going to consolidate. I mean, we're seeing it with Lever. I mean, we're seeing this, it's going to happen. Employee here at home with Jazz, it's going to happen. So someone's going to buy it. They're not going to go public. They're going to be acquired. It's probably more of a merger thing that's going to happen. ISIMS could be on. I mean, iSIMS had leadership change. I mean, they have money behind them to do that. I mean, a workday. Yeah, I don't know. But people are going to take these pieces off the board. And SmartRecruiters is one of them, apparently. It's going to happen eventually, whether it's this acquirer or not. Chad: Well, we will have more information, I'm sure, in coming weeks. But again, this literally just hit my phone. So I wanted to be able to throw it out at the listeners. Joel: This is rumor. Let's put that out there. It's nothing. So no news releases. Chad: This is rumor. I've got more than one source that came to me with this information. So it is a rumor, although I have had several sources come to me with the information. Joel: OK, interesting, interesting. Well, maybe HiBob bought, or the deal fell through with them. They're the first news story, the official news story. So Pento, Copenhagen board, London-based payroll automation platform was acquired by HiBob, an Israeli-based HRIS. The terms of the deal remain undisclosed. The acquisition promises to create an all-in-one solution, streamlining the entire payroll flow and saving time for various teams. Founded in 2017, Pento had raised around $54 million. Chad, what are your thoughts on Bob getting a brand new Pento? And a side note, I dated a girl who drove a Pinto in high school. And I got to tell you, the backseat is bigger than you think it would be, just saying. Chad: It allowed for more junk in the trunk, from what I understand. Joel: That's right. More cushion in my portion. Chad: Here's a quote from the article. "The companies did not disclose the exact value of the purchase, but it is estimated to be around 40 million in shares and cash." So as you had said, Crunchbase shows 54 million in total funding, 35 million in Series B from Tiger Global in December of 2021. And we're talking about an estimated 40 million shares in cash. So this looks to be a distressed company who needed a deal to make sure that the company could continue breathing and HiBob seems to be the respirator for Pento. And let's face it, startups all over the globe are either approaching distress or they're in distress right now. And here's a problem I saw with Pento. Their core pricing was $5 per employee per month up to 30 employees max. So let's say that all 400 customers fit into that core pricing bucket. Chad: They probably didn't, but let's just say that that's $60,000 per month, or I'm sorry, 60,000 pounds per month at 720,000 pounds per year, not even a million pounds per year. So from the Tech.eu article, "According to Pento, it reduced payment processing from weeks to minutes for more than 400 of its UK customers." So the list of Pento deliverables for a company with 30 employees or less is long, plus you're reducing the payment processing for weeks to minutes and only for only 150 pounds a month. So I understand that companies create these three-tiered pricing systems with an almost free version, and then they try to entice customers to use their product. But it costs the organization money to expend so many resources on that specific product, even if it's said to be "automation." So they have to focus on actual products that drive organization toward profitability. So here's what I expect. I expect HiBob to restructure pricing. They'll just go ahead and consume everything that Pento was. They will redistribute in new form and they will actually make it profitable for the organization. They have a large portfolio of companies that are already using the platform. This is going to be a new service. This is what I think, and they will make it so it's actually profitable. Where in this case, what I'm seeing from Pento is this was bargain basement shit, and it came and bit them in the ass. Joel: Yeah. I think the payroll business really sucks. Aside from background checks, it's a pretty shitty business that a few companies that are huge make margins on and make money on the paychecks of the world, the pay cores, etcetera. So like out of the gate, it's a really tough business. I mean, 400 companies using it with this kind of investment money is not a huge amount of customers. Chad: No. They're not. Joel: We don't know what size those customers are. Yeah. This was clearly a business that had, I guess the eight-ball in front of it from the get go. And when you look at HiBob, they probably needed this solution. It's one of the things that they don't have yet. It's probably something a few customers are asking for. They think they can move some people over. They can probably move quite a bit of the Pento folks over to HiBob the ones that are least the bigger companies. Joel: So that's probably a good move if they can get like a 100 of those companies to become HiBob customers, that'd be a good thing. The other thing that I think we probably don't pay attention to or does have a huge impact, is the fact that HiBob is an Israeli company. And Israel is, if you haven't heard in a bit of a conflict within the region. And if you look at HiBob's employees, they are largely Jerusalem, Israel, like that area... Chad: Tel Avivs. Joel: And a lot of those people were probably brought into service because I don't know the specifics of it, but if you're an Israeli citizen and there's a conflict, like you get pulled into the Army in some way. Chad: From reserves. Joel: Shape or form... The reserve, you can speak to that more than I can, but HiBob potentially lost some employees for a while. Chad: I bet This thing that they wanted to build was on the back burner. The one country they have the most sort of synergies with is the UK, in terms of employees office space. So the easy thing was like, where in the UK can we get this service we want to build? Where can we get some talent because our talent is busy or the things are going on, there's volatility. They don't have a footprint in the US yet like they want. So that wasn't an option to me. So my take on this is like, yes, we wanna build this. Our talent is strained as it is. Our resources are strained. Where can we go shopping to get people in a country we know and a service and solution that we need? And Pento to me was probably the perfect fit at, like you mentioned, the perfect price. The stars aligned and this deal was done. Chad: Right. And Pento was a UK only organization. And I know the UK is a country, but it's one country in Europe. So again, I think we were talking, and again, this is my opinion, taking a look at the pricing models, monetization models, those types of things, the money they've taken, and then also their total adjustable market being the UK. And then understanding the size of the SME market there in the UK too. It just seemed like it was not born to succeed in the first place. And this is, if I have any message to startups out there is, if you are a technical founder, that is fucking awesome. But get somebody in, who understands marketing, get somebody in who understands business models from a revenue standpoint, because you can build the most gorgeous shit all day. But if you can't fricking sell it and make a profit, you're fucked. Joel: Yeah. And I don't think you can discount the pressure that like Deal is putting on these businesses because people are looking at Deal's numbers and saying, we need to like, kick ourselves in the ass and get growing, or we're gonna fall behind the companies that are, that are doing it well. So I don't discount the pressure a company like Deal is putting on these businesses, either. All right, Chad it must be earning season. 'Cause we got some, we got some quarterly filings that happened. Recruit Holdings reported a 1.5% year on year decrease in revenue during the third quarter of '23, due to a contraction in hiring activities in the US and Europe. Revenue from the US decreased by 17.7% year over year. Total job postings on Indeed declined year over year in the US and many other countries where Indeed and Glassdoor operate, while job seeker activity as measured by traffic to, and applies on Indeed and Glassdoor increased year over year at DHI group, the owners of Dyson clearance jobs, they experienced a 6.2% year over year decline in fourth quarter revenue, primarily driven by a 12.5% decrease in revenue from Dice. Chad: Ouch. Joel: ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter releases next week, by the way. But wait, there's more, Chad. SFX: Another one. Joel: There's more. Randstad reported an 8.6% year over year drop in revenue blaming global economic uncertainty. US revenue for Randstad fell by 15% Canadian revenue by 11 and US staffing slash in-house services down by 17%. Monster revenue in case you're wondering. And I know that you were, was down 12%. So Chad, your take on the quarterly reports from some of our favorite companies. Chad: Yeah, I think we were on a tech sugar rush and you know, I believe this is the impact that you're gonna see from the tech industry and job boards and really just across the board, to be quite frank. So Dice is obviously a pure play 1990s version job board that focuses on the tech side of the house. So we can't expect a hit from them. There's no question. I mean, there is no innovation there, there's nothing. But again, 1990s job board tech, so we can't expect any much more from them. So if we're reading the tea leaves right from the Indeed side of the house, they recently expended resources to create a tech network that makes me believe a good amount of their revenue is driven off the tech sector itself. Which would make sense because again, there's drops in revenues, when you're getting higher prices for clicks on tech jobs than the rest of the jobs that are out there. Chad: And then you see it kind of like, not really fall off a cliff, but they, they come down not just from the amount of jobs technically, but also the price per click. That's a big, that's a big issue. So we were seeing a lot of these organizations, even Randstad, let's say, where they were really milking it. They were milking this tech sugar rush. So this was to be expected. Are they still gonna make a shit ton of cash? And the CEOs drive Maseratis and yachts, they're gonna be fine. Okay. But at the end of the day, this was, we saw a big tech sugar rush, and now they're just coming off the, the tech sugar rush. Joel: There's a lot going on here. And the last time we talked about the quarterly earning season, it was similarly ugly for the job board space. And those were investment discussions that we had. But these are real numbers. Again, Randstad is in some serious decreases in numbers. So we have traffic going up, revenue going down. So that tells me that there's a lot of pricing pressure, particularly probably from the programmatic players from what I'm hearing. And anytime there's a middleman in business, it's a race to the bottom. And I think with programmatic, it's like, okay, where can I get the cheapest clicks possible? And it's just like this gradual race to how low can we go on those pricing. I also think that companies are getting better at looking at their current workforce. How do we upskill these folks? Joel: How do we get them in the positions that we're looking for? I really do think that companies are getting the fact that we have people we need to do a better job of skilling them into new jobs. And I also think that companies are getting better about looking at their databases and figuring out how do we find people that were silver and bronze medalists six months ago? Chad: It's about fucking time. Joel: And bringing them in as employees, so we don't have to post a job and go through the whole hiring and, and interviewing process. I think companies are getting sort of used to the fact that LinkedIn is gonna be where we source some people. So before we post that job, let's look and see if we can find someone, on LinkedIn. And I think big picture wise, we're seeing data that's showing that the job hopping of the post pandemic world where everyone was getting a 25% increase in pay, that that is slowing down. So people are staying at the job longer. They're not jumping ship as quickly as they used to. And I think that's having an impact on companies not having to post jobs as much as they typically would. And ultimately the four horsemen and other things nipping at the heels of the job board space continue to to feed, if you will. We'll be right back. Joel: All right, Chad some economy news. Can I interest you in some of that? The Biden administration announced a $5 billion investment to support research and development in advanced computer chips. Despite local efforts to address labor market concerns, the US semiconductor manufacturing industry faces challenges in attracting and retaining talent. The new initiative aims to reverse the industry's decline and boost domestic production of advanced semiconductors. But cool your jets, man, companies are struggling to adapt quickly enough to a convergence of tech generational turnover and things just moving too damn fast. Chad, to keep up with all these demands, about 44% of workers in a recent study have skills that are set to be disrupted in the next five years. Again, that's 44% that are gonna be disrupted. And about 60% of workers will require training in the next three years. This all seems bad to me, Chad, but what are your thoughts. Chad: Well, first off, let's hit up the US government side of the house, which is doing exactly what it should regarding research and development and innovation, much like the US government and DARPA created the internet. Yeah. The US and DARPA did that kids, it's interesting that people everywhere forgot that the current velocity of today's technology can be pinned directly to the US government creating the internet, which not only help the US economy explode, but economies across the entire globe. So that's what a government's supposed to do. And that's exactly what's going on. Now, this leads to some of the bigger problems, which you talked about the skills gap, because we can have tons of great jobs, but if we don't have individuals with the skills to pay the bills, the jobs to design and produce and sales and customer service profits aren't gonna happen. Chad: So yes, the linchpin for all of this to work is the American worker who has the skills to pay the bills. So this is on you talent acquisition. This is on you, not just focusing on your current talent acquisition opportunities and also talent management opportunities. You have to think out of the box and maybe even focus a little bit more heavily on training and pay money for that. But wait a minute, wait a minute. Here comes Uncle Joe to the rescue. The National Semiconductor Technology Center is being funded through the Chips and Science Act. The center will help to fund the design and prototyping of new chips. That's cool. In addition to what, what training workers for the sector, Uncle Joe companies say they need skilled workers in order to capitalize on a separate $39 billion being provided to the government or by the government, I'm sorry, to fund new and expanded computer plants. Chad: So here's Uncle Joe to the rescue. The question is, oh, this is such a game. It drives me fucking crazy. It's like the government comes and bails out the organizations, which is exactly what's happening here. We're gonna spend money to train the people to do the shit that you should be doing. And then later we'll talk about overreach and we'll talk about how the government needs to stay out of our stuff. There's gotta be some type of balance that's happening here. Because every time the government comes into play, it seems like they're bailing you out. The companies who are making historic profits are getting bailed out. Joel: I think that my take on this is, it's trying to speed up the clock. We have geopolitical issues with China. Taiwan is the major producer of a certain chip that the world needs to do all this AI stuff. And if Taiwan goes under for some reason, the free world is kind of in a pickle to say the least. So the government does what government does, they go, okay, China's a threat. If Taiwan goes away, we're in trouble. So let's pass a bill that says we're gonna fund companies setting up shops, setting up chip making, setting up technologies here in America, which is all good. Political fodder for people that love that stuff. We're gonna set up a warehouse or a building in Ohio and they're gonna love it. And companies are gonna get behind it and it's gonna be great PR and they're gonna get their picture in the local paper and people are gonna love it. And then they found out, oh, shit, we don't have people to do the jobs that we are paying the businesses to stay in the country. So the companies go to government and say, okay, well help us get people. Help us get like, what's going on. And unfortunately Taiwan was a source for early employees. It was like, let's get some visas to these Taiwanese. Chad: Well it's 'cause they were cheap. That's why. Joel: Get there first. And lo and behold, Taiwan, well, Taiwan has their own challenges to fill seats in these organizations. So it's like, okay, well we can just wait 20 years and fill the jobs that we have and deal... Well, we don't have that much time. So government, the good part of government is like, let's speed up the clock. Let's gin this thing up. Let's inject some cash and let's get people excited and energized around this initiative. The specifics, were pretty sparse. Exactly what are we gonna do? But dude, I'm all for the onshoring or reshoring of chips and technology and robotics and all that stuff. Because if we rely on China or places that are dangerous, like that puts us in a dangerous place. And I'm not down for that. So to me, this is a security issue more than it is like, let's bail out the banks or let's bail out the car companies. Like to me, this is a genuinely important issue in terms of the security of the country. I don't know how you feel, but like to me, this is 5 billion on our security, not 5 billion to bail out companies. And it's just wasteful. Chad: But it totally is because when we take a look at when the pandemic happened, we had automakers, we had companies obviously who did, they had no contingencies in place at all. They had one place to get one part. And that part or that chip, they needed to run the entire system on a car or what have you. So we are actually doing business in an incredibly irresponsible way, although making a shit ton of cash that's going directly to the C-suite, going to the shareholders. So as we talk about economics and workforce economics, this is a pure bailout of irresponsible corporate dealings. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Speaking of crazy pills, Chad, they're back. Jobster. Yeah. I said Jobster, first made famous in the mid 2000s behind eccentric founder Jason Goldberg is back from the dead. The domain was sold around 2010 to a company called Zapoint, which is now a holding page for a WordPress blog, "about philosophy." Somewhere around 2018, Zapoint shut things down and it laid dormant until now, visitors at Jobster.com are met with the words, "welcome to Jobster, the world's first, first predictive job advertising platform open for early access registrations now." All signs seem to point to a new programmatic ad solution, but who the hell knows? Chad, what are your thoughts? Chad: It feels like ghosts of Christmas passed here. Jobster at one time went through like, I don't know, 20 iterations of, of what it could be. But that's back in 2004 to 2008, the prior version of Jobster. Programmatic distribution, realtime bidding matching. I have no fucking clue. We'll see when it comes out. But I wanted to use this time for a little story time because we both have history with Jobster. Joel: Come come along kids and hear a story from your grandpa. Chad: 2004 to 2008 Jobster received about $54 million in funding. And that was a lot back then. Joel: Which was massive back then. Chad: No, that was a lot back then. Joel: That was massive back then. Chad: So after the 2006 raise of about $18 million, Jason Goldberg, the CEO called me one day, I was the VP of Direct Employers Association, and he was totally drunk on this new funding. I mean, he thought he owned the world, which I totally get. And he said, okay, Chad, there at Direct Employers Association, I wanna know how much it's gonna take to buy you. And I said, Jason, you can't buy us. We are a nonprofit consortium of and he didn't want to hear that. So he pulled the Karen, let me talk to your manager. So he wanted to talk to the executive director. And it was just funny that we're seeing what we've seen now, a lot of these companies who are now considered unicorns who are drunk on the cash, some of them are not doing so well. And we saw this back in 2007, 2008, and it's not just because the founder was all over the place. That was part of it. But it seems like when you don't have focus and you're not managing your money and you've got your burn rate through the fucking roof, shit's gonna go bad. And that's what happened at Jobster. Joel: Everyone from that time period has a Goldberg story. I have many, but I will say that he was... So I was blogging at Cheesehead at the time. And you guys had me come down direct employers to your annual meeting, which is like in the basement of treasure Island, which were the good old days for sure. But Goldberg spoke and I said at the time, Hey, can I record you? And he is like, sure, no problem. So I had like this big Panasonic camera at the time. Chad: A camcorder. Joel: And I taped him. And this is his famous like Monster is NASCAR. Monster is a shit product. He like totally killed, killed Monster in his presentation. I had it all on tape. It's still out there. Actually, you can go to YouTube, I think, and search Jason Goldberg Monster is a crap product and see the video. Joel: But my site traffic and my brand took a spike up into the right when I published that video. But yeah, the dude, he was a dick to employees. The alumni of the old Jobster are really successful now. To many degrees now. Chad: Great talent. Joel: Just learning about Jason, Jason is now peddling Web3 stuff at a company he founded called Airstack. He's still getting funding. It's very humorous. If you look at his LinkedIn profile, you know how if a company has a logo, it's on LinkedIn and the logo's there and then the company. And if it's no company or the company's like gone or whatever, there's just a building icon. Most of his things are the building icon because the companies that he founded and ran into the ground, don't have pages anymore. Joel: So to present day here, I did a little bit of digging. This is a company owned in the Netherlands, apparently bought this thing. It's a group of three guys. They have sites like Jobbird, StudentJob they're behind a company called YoungCapital and a tech accelerator called Dash. But really we don't know a whole hell of a lot. We'll just have to watch how this thing plays out. My guess is these guys have no clue about the history of the domain that they purchased. Chad: Oh no. Joel: They probably got on a secondary market, said, oh, Jobster. That's kind of cool. That sounds good. And bought it and have no idea what kind of debt they're dealing with. But yeah, it'll be fun to see this thing come to life or not. I don't know. Netherlands maybe. Maybe they'll have some kibu on the site when you guys go to Netherlands. [music] Chad: Come to the e-recruitment Congress and let's sit down for a chat. Joel: All right, Chad let's take a quick break from all this nostalgia. All right, Chad, are you ready to score? Ready to score big? All right. Neon Money Club. Chad: I have no clue what that means. Joel: Yeah. If you see a company called Neon Money Club hide your wallet and clutch your pearls. Anyway, they're a FinTech platform and they've launched a new dating app called Score, which requires users to have a credit score of at least 675, users will be able to apply for access. And those denied will be directed to resources to improve their financial literacy and credit scores. Well, that's nice of them. That's nice of them. The app is only available for a limited time and has received mixed reactions, as you can imagine due to its exclusionary nature with some viewing it as aspirational and others seeing it as perpetuating class divides. Neon Money Club has raised over $10 million in venture capital and is the first black-owned tech business to launch a credit card with AmEx. Chad, are you ready to score or is this thing an air ball? Chad: So did I get this right. This is a dating app matching on credit score is that what I got? Joel: You can only join if you have a certain credit score or above, which is 675. Chad: Which is a dating app though, right? Joel: Yes. Chad: What's this saying about our society? I mean, we're a society that's in debt more than ever before. We're a society that some cases have to have two to three jobs just to make ends meet. And then we talk about Instagram and social media, which is bad for kids and their self-esteem. Now, newly minted adults who are deep in debt are being rated on something as arbitrary and bullshit as a credit score, as a means to tell whether you're gonna be a good mate or not. I mean I just don't understand how these ridiculous ideas get any money whatsoever. It's crazy. I mean, this is, I think an example. What is, there's so many things that are right about the entrepreneurial spirits in America. But then you think about what's wrong here it is. Here it is. Shit that should never, ever exist. Guess what? Here it is. Joel: So it's not a new idea. Exclusionary. There's this, there's a dating site called The League, which is mostly Ivy League graduates sort of an upper cross now. You get on a waiting list with them and they approve you or not. Which tells me they're probably letting a lot of women in and like only guys that have Ivy Leagues and whatever. Chad: Oh, of course. Yeah. Joel: So look, it's no secret. Women are looking for a guy who is financially secure, cancel me or whatever. But like that is, that is something that women probably look for. Chad: Dude, at 20. Were you financially secure? No fucking way. I wasn't either. Joel: Let me finish my thoughts, man. Chad: I wasn't either. [laughter] Joel: Let me finish my thoughts. So yes. Like they're gonna exclude a lot of 20 somethings. For sure. Chad: Not cool. Joel: And maybe that's their goal. Maybe their goal is like, okay, all these young guys that are horny, they're gonna fail the test and we're gonna funnel them into our financial services funnel. Maybe that's it. And that's kind of like I mean a bit of an evil genius kind of thing, if you will. Chad: Boner killer. Joel: Boner killer. But look, dude, I mean, Tinder is built on what I look like, kind of my basic interests. And if there's a physical thing, then I'm gonna swipe right and see what happens. I can't imagine the... I mean you're getting... No one's gonna choose someone just because of their credit score. Like you can't be a troll. And have an 800 credit score. Chad: I don't get it. Joel: And like, pull chicks. Like that's just not how this shit works. So I don't know man. This is gonna be like there was an app called People back in the day where you could rate individuals like professionally. And it was like Yelp for People and everyone hated it and it didn't work. And now it's gone. I assume that dating by credit score is not going to be a thing. I just hope that Apple Podcasts never require a certain credit score for this show, because the money is funny and the credit, don't get it on Chad and Cheese. You know what I'm saying? We are out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, the podcast, with Chad, with Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss, there's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

Frontline workers are in high demand. They're essential to keeping the lights on for companies of all sizes. To say there's a lot of money spend on hiring and retaining those employees is an understatement, but the ability to support those initiatives will also managing that workforce is equally important. That's why Movo was built and why Jason Radisson, founder and CEO of the company came on Firing Squad. That's the good news. The bad news is there are lots of competitors with trusted brands and even deeper pockets. So is Movo a knife in a gunfight, or do they bring a special sauce the others don't. Radisson and his background at Uber may just be cooking up something unique, but we'll let the intense line of questioning answer that question. Does he survive The Squad? Gotta listen to find out. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, buzziest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids, the Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel Cheeseman: All right, all right, all right, it's your plumber's favorite podcast, everybody, AKA The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheeseman, joined as always, the Argyle to my John McLean, Chad Sowash is in the house, and it's another Firing Squad with Jason Radisson, founder and CEO of Movo... Chad Sowash: Movo. Joel Cheeseman: On a mission to transform work environments and career paths for millions of frontline workers. Jason, welcome to the Firing Squad. Jason Radisson: Hey, guys, thanks for having me on. Joel Cheeseman: No problem. No problem. Now, before we get to the business stuff, our listeners probably don't know who you are. Give them a Twitter bio. What makes Jason Radisson tick? Jason Radisson: Yeah, happy to. So Jason Radisson is my name, I live in Minneapolis, I grew up as the only child of a 16-year-old single mom, I worked all kinds of jobs coming up and I'm just really passionate about work, my family and the outdoors. And I think those three things really combine themselves super well in Minneapolis, big fan of the Twin Cities' recent transplant from Silicon Valley. Joel Cheeseman: Sixteen-year-old single mother. Wow, that's a whole podcast in and of itself. Jeez. Jason Radisson: Probably. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Probably is. Well, we're not here for the warm and fuzzy stuff, not at all. Chad, tell him what he's won today. Chad Sowash: Well, Jason, welcome to the Firing Squad, this is how it's going to go. At the sound of the bell, you are going to have 2 minutes to pitch Movo, at the end of 2 minutes, we're going to hit you up with about 20 minutes of Q and A, so be sure to be concise or we're going to hit you with the crickets, which means you need to tighten it up and move on. At the end of Q and A, you will receive one of the three, a big applause... [applause] Chad Sowash: Happy holidays for Jason's. Looks like you've unwrapped that big exit that you've always wanted. Golf clap. [applause] Chad Sowash: Keep cleaning up reindeer shit. With a good work ethic, you might get a glimpse of market adoption. And last but never least, the firing squad. Bah humbug, take a lump of coal... Joel Cheeseman: Hell no. Chad Sowash: And be happy with it, that's the Firing Squad, Jason, are you ready? Jason Radisson: Ready as I'll ever be. Joel Cheeseman: Your 2 minutes starts now. Jason Radisson: So hey, everybody, Movo is a real-time platform that your workforce, if you have a large frontline workforce, the hospitality industry, clinical staff, retail, energy, and clean tech. Movo is a platform where your entire workforce has everything about their workday all day long every day. From timekeeping to communications to a virtual social network to training opportunities and things like shift swapping, and picking up new roles internally, promotion opportunities and opportunities, mobility opportunities and things like that. Movo supports all of those use cases and our clients are largely global companies with big workforces in that space and have realized a 10 to 30 percent improvement in productivity. The initial idea we got for Movo was, I was an exec and early team member in Uber and then in two other gig economy companies, and I really saw this opportunity to take the technology of the gig economy in a modern mobile real-time platform to frontline workforces in traditional companies that weren't blessed with that same kind of technology. And I think the world's just changing, we're entering a phase where there's never going to be more workers, we've got to invest in the workforce that we have in leveling them up and removing frictions from their job. You can find out more about us, you can see client testimonials, you can see demos of the software at movo.co, that's M-O-V-O.C-O, thanks a lot. Joel Cheeseman: All right, I'm sorry. Did you say shift-swapping or wife-swapping? I didn't quite get that. Jason Radisson: We have not gotten into that yet, not yet. Chad Sowash: Not yet but it's on the roadmap, it's on the road map. Joel Cheeseman: You may have to pivot after this podcast. You may have to pivot. Jason Radisson: Might be good, might be bad for worker engagement. Joel Cheeseman: Again, another whole podcast we can get out of this. I always ask about the name, but I'm going to put a pin on that for a second. You did time at Uber. Do you have a good Uber story? Do you have a good Travis story for us before we get into everything? Jason Radisson: Sure. I got lots of them. Let me see one that I can share. Joel Cheeseman: Pick one. Jason Radisson: I think one of the biggest things we struggled with was dealing with airports, and we had a lot of these places where we struggled with the local taxi community. Joel Cheeseman: Vegas. Jason Radisson: Vegas, in particular, it was one of my cities that you guys have probably seen. Chad Sowash: It sucks. Yeah. Jason Radisson: Travis was really in a position where... I think as a company also, we just didn't want to get into a wrong position with Homeland Security and airports. And what we managed to negotiate out and never quite got blessed was a data sharing with McCarran Airport, where we didn't give away personally identifiable information and nothing that would get us in trouble with legal. And we were able to come up with this win-win-win situation that ended up being the way that ridesharing companies communicate with Homeland Security. You want to make sure that you don't have a car full of terrorists driving up to the airport... Joel Cheeseman: Very important. Jason Radisson: But you also don't want to be doing something Big Brother-like in sharing people's names and trajectories with authorities. I'll leave it at that, I won't exactly say what the technical solution was, but it's one of those... Joel Cheeseman: Bending the rules, everything we've seen in the Hulu... Jason Radisson: One of those, and Travis basically refused to go to any of the meetings, but also didn't block it. So that would be one of my Travis stories. Joel Cheeseman: Everything is true. Everything is true. Let's get to Movo. Origin of the name. It's a dot co, which 10 years ago you saw a lot of, you don't see a lot of it anymore, it's all io and ai. You guys aren't that old, you founded in 2018. So what's the origin of the name? Did you try to get the dot com? Will you be looking at getting that in the future? Talk about the name. Jason Radisson: Yeah. Yeah. Domain brokers, beware, but yeah, the origin of the name was... We wanted a name that we could really grow into, and the vision is very broad because very broadly speaking, we're essentially a data and algorithms company inside of an HR company, HR tech company. And Movo was just... It resonates and it pulled really well with the frontline workforce, clients as well, and we thought it was just a great refreshing take on the future of work and particularly gig technology, the development of the flexible workforce. That all sounds really vague, but if you boil down what's out there, I think the route of going very specific ends up getting you into a dead end because you name your company after one feature, and then it gets challenging when you start to build out your roadmap. And so I think we've got a good name from that perspective. The dot co is simply its domain-broker dynamics like dot com, it's taken, not particularly acquirable for an early stage company budget, io and a couple of the other ones as well, and yet we were able to trademark Movo, broadly speaking, for HR tech around the world. So we're pretty protected, we're doing a lot on the SEO front just to make sure that we continue to rank in the top three. Joel Cheeseman: Got it. Got it. Well, you don't hear frontline work and fresh perspective when it comes to names, so we'll leave it at that. Jason Radisson: Yea, right, right. Joel Cheeseman: Now, you don't have what I would call a core competency in recruitment, HR, etcetera. Would you agree? And if not, change my mind. But is that an advantage for what you guys are doing or do you find that it's a learning curve that you're trying to catch up to? Jason Radisson: Yeah, I would say I've got a recent one. My core competence is designing and deploying big algorithms, and I did it in the consumer space for years. I worked in telecoms, I was part of an algorithms development team in early McKinsey 25 years ago, and then we deployed a bunch of algorithms into banking, into telecoms, into a bunch of consumer businesses. I worked for Gary Loveman at Caesars Entertainment, previously at Harrah's in the rollup of the casino industry. Rolling our algorithmic system, which were a lot of like airline algorithms and otherwise and then eBay and then some of the other e-commerce companies. So I've been deploying massive algorithms like algorithms that see a billion transactions and touches a month kind of a thing going on two decades. Joel Cheeseman: So I'm going to go ahead, I'm going to bounce off of that. Chad Sowash: And I have three more points to add to that with seven subplot points. Joel Cheeseman: There are so many industries that are out there. HR is a slow-to-adopt industry, you've got all this great, fast-moving, fast-paced tech. You were on the cutting, bleeding edge with Uber. Right? You were not on the bleeding edge anymore, at least from an industry standpoint, so why? Why in the hell are you in HR now? Jason Radisson: Great question, and I think if you look at it, it's, consumer is relatively easy. Digitizing consumers relatively easy because everybody's got a mobile phone, it's got like 20 sensors on it. The problem with B2B is it doesn't exist, you have all the hardware issues and all the interoperability issues and all the corporate leadership issues and all the other things that go with it. And even you could say, The organization isn't designed to be run automatically. We went through this in e-commerce. Right? Because Walmart and Target and Best Buy's organizational structures were merchant organizations. They weren't set up with the kind of general managers that the category manager at Amazon is. So when you look at it, what are the opportunities to really digitize traditional B2B companies? Jason Radisson: It's on the front line worker, that's the place where you've got consumer kinds of dynamics, and you've got a mobile phone, frankly, in everybody's pocket, that's why we're going after that space. You'd argue ride-sharing and delivery is like a first step in that direction, if you look at what we did with Uber drivers. Right? We hired 5000 Uber drivers a week in the city, we on any given day managed 20, 30, 50,000 people in real time in a city or a small region, we were already digitizing the front line workforce. So now I think that's our bet as a company, we can take those same kind of tactics and tack and we can deploy them into the front line workforce at everybody else's company. Joel Cheeseman: So you saw that there was a gap, that there was pretty much a legacy tech in your space, and that you guys could fill that gap with more bleeding-edge tech? Is that what I'm hearing? Jason Radisson: Exactly. Yeah, I think there was a competing model out there for a few years, which was the labor marketplace. And everyone was betting on a labor marketplace and staffing platforms and that kind of thing. And I think the challenge is like you end up with coemployment, you end up with all these career challenges when people are in a temp environment. And so our bet is that that stuff is passe, labor marketplaces are passe, and really what you need to be doing is providing the best tech directly to employers to run their workforce this way. Joel Cheeseman: So you mentioned hospitality, nursing, and retail, those are incredibly different industries, so how do you cater to them all? Do you try to slam them all into the same process methodology? Because, to be quite frank, we all need to do the same thing, and if so, what is the adoption rate for companies thinking that they can just go ahead and jam their nursing process into a hospitality process? Jason Radisson: Well, I think if you... Not to go into scheduling processes versus hiring process, onboarding process or whatever, but if we stay macro, the use cases that people need really advanced tech for are really similar. So one of the biggest opportunities out there in the economy in terms of digitization is optimizing... If you look at... We don't have enough frontline workers in the country. Right? Like full stop. And population is aging, so it's not getting better, that's even creating more frontline workforce demand. Right? And we got participation down, so we got less workers to deal with, we've got to make more of the workers that we have. Everybody who's running a large company is walking around with 20, 10, 30% waste in their schedule, it's misallocated nurses, it's warehouse staff that isn't exactly matched to the ordered volume that's coming through. It's these kinds of things, these kinds of opportunities, and so right off the bat, the first thing that we usually look at is staff allocation. Chad Sowash: So your Uber driver allocation is what I'm hearing. Jason Radisson: Essentially, yeah. Joel Cheeseman: Surge pricing. Jason Radisson: Exactly. Well, surge pricing, if you're dealing with 1099s, it's surge pricing, if you're dealing with your own staff, and it may be flexing your staffing partners up and down and it may be shifting shifts... Swapping shifts, pardon me, and doing these kinds of substitutions. We have clients that literally will move 20, 30% to their staff around every week. And that's the kind of stuff that fills your staffing gap. Then if you're able to sweat your current roster, obviously you don't have the TA gap anymore. Joel Cheeseman: Jason, so you guys have raised about $10 million. What have you done with that, and what will you do with the remaining? And is there another series coming down the pipe? Talk about the cash. Jason Radisson: We've been EBITDA positive, EBITDA breakeven positive for about the last year, we did a small strategic raise last year, taking on jobs for the future JFF and SHRM. I think we're likely to continue to do those kinds of raises opportunistically, where we find the right partnerships, but our real goal is to be self-funding from this point forward. Most of what we did with the 10 million that we raised is build a platform and get engineering aligned. We built a lot of product, we've got more than 100 features in our platform. Joel Cheeseman: And speaking of engineering. So looking at your headcount info on LinkedIn, it looks like you guys have had quite a bit of a cut in the last couple of years. Unless the data is wrong, it looks like about a 28% cut. Engineering and tech and sales being two of the... Ones that were most impacted. Talk about that. Was that a cost savings? Was that a, Hey, we built the platform, we don't need these folks anymore, our sales strategy has changed? Talk about the talent pool. Jason Radisson: When we came out of... And you guys have probably seen this broadly, I think a lot of us have experienced it day-to-day, but like when we came out of the pandemic, things really shifted, and I think we didn't talk about them a lot. Right? Because during the pandemic, we were running around, we were basically an HDD shop during the pandemic, we were hiring people, we were training them, we were deploying them particularly in North America, trying to get plants back up. And we were literally running around with $200 million of orders, and we were like filling like 10% of them. And I don't think we were alone, I think we have competitors there, the staffing companies were all swamped. Jason Radisson: And as we came out of the pandemic, a lot of people just calmed down and it went to, We're making do with what we have, we have uncertain demand picture. So there was this real slowdown in hiring and talent acquisition. As we saw it, the crazy days were done like April of last year. And we made some big cuts and readjusted our business and sweat out... We really bulked up because we were hiring. We're looking at... In some months, we were putting 60,000 workers through our platform and through our hiring process. So that was a big adjustment and course correction. Then we went... Like I said, we worked last year on getting EBITDA positive and realigning for the long game that we're playing now. Joel Cheeseman: So Uber tried getting into this game and they failed. I mean they crashed and burned. So what's different this time around? Obviously, I don't think you were there that time, but what's different this time around? Jason Radisson: I think Uber Works was a flawed strategy, I think the idea that... And it's a little bit you see it with Wonolo, which is also a company... I think it's a great company, I think it has also fundamentally this flawed strategy, which is, there's the very entry level of the workforce, the unskilled worker, the very casual unskilled worker. It's just a brutal market and it's really tough to build preference with the employees. Those jobs are totally commoditized, there's not any margin in there for anybody, and then on the client side as well, they have seven or eight competitors. And by the way, a guy with fax machine is every bit is able to staff those workers in as Uber's app so it's just a tough business. And I think them going after that market at that time was just destined to end up the way it did. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. So let's talk about some of the threats and maybe even competitors in the market because we see the paradoxes and the Harrys of the world, I mean they're gobbling up market share, so. Chad Sowash: Bigger than that, like some gorillas in this space. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, they've taken up a lot of market share. So how do you compete? Or is that just a market validation that you just need to be a pilot fish? Jason Radisson: I think there's plenty of market share to go around because I think this is gonna be a big part of... Right? And we're talking about digitizing B2B. Like I don't think there's gonna be HR software and warehouse management software and other ERPs 20 years from now, I think we're gonna have a couple of platforms that you run a big part of your company on. So I think we're moving in that direction. The linchpin, the strategic pivot here is like who... Pivot point is who has worker preference and who's the app that the worker has on in their pocket all day long everyday because that gives you all the behavioral data, that gives you all the geodata to do any number of use cases and to be, frankly, the AI shop that wins. I don't think this is a chatbot thing. It's not about, Can you do customer service with a chatbot? Or, Can you replace recruiters with a chatbot? I think this is, Are you the mobile app or preference? And a lot of us are gonna compete for it and we'll have slightly different strategies and different approaches. And the world's a big place, I mean I was looking up some numbers on a different topic today. Accenture did 30 billion of SI work in the Fortune 500 in the US last year, so there's room for 20 or 30 companies here easily. And we end up being the workdays in 10 years or whatever. Chad Sowash: So you've got to be sticky, you've gotta be the lifestyle platform is what I'm hearing, you can't just be an Indeed job search app on the phone, you've gotta be more than that? Jason Radisson: Yeah. For us, I mean I'm giving away a little bit of trade secrets here, but timekeeping and scheduling is the killer app because that's what gets workers legit reason not... Right? They're not like on Facebook for work doing posts. Like with a legit reason using the app all day long everyday, and it has direct financial impact, it has direct career development impact. The internal labor marketplace is another one, surfacing those shifts that need to be swapped. Hey, my buddy, who's also cross-trained in the ER, needs to get a couple of shifts covered, so. Joel Cheeseman: Well, where do you start... Where do you start and end? I mean that's the big question. Where do you start and end? Do you start at the top of the funnel and actually do the recruiting portion of it, and then all the way through payroll and scheduling? I mean, Where do you start and end? Because that in itself, from a TAM standpoint, that is pretty broad. Chad Sowash: Or where do you want to start and end? Jason Radisson: Right. Right, the biggest lever is productivity in your existing workforce. Right? If you're a big hospital chain, you have 50,000 nurses, the big lever is getting 10% more of productivity out of that workforce. Hiring is an important application, we just have a completely gig-style hiring process. You download the app, you click through a couple of screens, and you're essentially hired, and then you show up at an orientation session. So for the super high-volume hiring that we've done in the last couple of years, that's the process. But I think it... Right? I go back to like it's mobile workforce management, if you wanna really put a wrapper on it. That's where we all should be competing because that's the unlock for the frontline workforce of the world. Joel Cheeseman: So I'm gonna dig in a little bit with the recruiting side because we have some on the recruiting side that are bleeding into the management side, what you're doing. Do you not see yourself going the other way into recruiting? Will you always be a day one and on or hired onboarding and on? Jason Radisson: Yeah. Oh, I should say we have a full-fledged recruiting automation offering, and we compete with the fountains and the levers of the world and otherwise, so. Joel Cheeseman: You don't beat your chest about it. Jason Radisson: We don't. 'cause we think it's... Joel Cheeseman: It may exist. Jason Radisson: Yeah. And like I said, I mean our stat is we hired 600,000 people in the last two years, so it's not like we have some beta that we sort of are thinking about. We know it's there, we don't think it's as strategic as workforce management. And clients will eventually ask us for it, but it's... Right? Because like we were saying, you can't hire your way out of the deficit right now, I think for that reason. Joel Cheeseman: So you dabble in recruitment, you may bulk that up a little bit as customer demand, yada yada. Okay, so you have a unique perspective on automation because Uber was really focused on automation, I think they partnered with Duquesne or something at some point. I'm going way back in my memory archives. But Uber was really focused on automated drivers and driverless taxis. Employment is the same every week, whether it's a new story about Amazon robots or driverless trucks or something. Talk about that in terms of a threat to your business. In other words, for every robot that comes on the line, every robot that takes blood pressure at a hospital, is that eating away at your profits? And if not, why not? Jason Radisson: Sure. I think the short answer is, robotics is really hard for these roles and it's gonna take a while. And I think the long game is, think 50 years in the future, 100 years in the future, there's gonna be a lot less of this type of employment. I think if you look at where automation is headed right now, it's really at entry-level white collar work, it's not at... Right? And I'm talking entry-level computer scientists, I'm talking entry-level financial analysts, entry-level lawyers, that's where automation is going to eat, probably the lunch of the next like five to 10 years. And I think it's a broader topic for HR leaders who might be listening to this show, but the broader topic is, How do you help... Joel Cheeseman: Every HR leader listens to this show? Jason, just so you know. Jason Radisson: Okay. Just so I know All of them. Jason Radisson: So it's a broader topic of, How do you help your career starters right now coming out of college? What does it look like if apprentice programs get hollowed out because your senior engineers are just using some AI assistants instead of using junior engineers anymore? Are bringing them up. Right? So we've got other topics there. But I think nursing, a lot of running highly automated factory lines, field engineering or field technician work, there's a ton of work out there that is just gonna be more tech enabled and it's just gonna level up in the same way like the PC and the internet didn't eat white collar work in the beginning, it just became an enabler and it caused all of us to gain technology skills. I think we have the same thing going on. Nursing will get more technical, and as HR leaders, we have to help the workforce get more technical. Chad Sowash: And I assume that's where your upskilling feature comes into play. Jason Radisson: Exactly. Chad Sowash: I'm not asking you a question, I'm just filling in the blanks in my own mind. Joel Cheeseman: You're sprinkling, you're sprinkling it in there. Chad Sowash: I'm sprinkling it. Yeah. Joel Cheeseman: I appreciate that. Let's talk about go-to-market. So how are we going to market? Are you going straight to brands? Are you working with different companies, being able to get into their portfolios? Being white labeled? How are you doing this? Jason Radisson: Yeah. So so far we've entirely operated under our own brand, we haven't white-labeled the platform in any market. Our go-to-market is... Our buyer is an early adopter and somebody who is down for change management, hungry for technology, and driven, concerned about helping their workforce get ahead and be higher skilled and be more productive and earn higher wages and things. Joel Cheeseman: Who are those people? What's the level of that person? That's not the VP of talent acquisition. Is it? Who is that? Who are you getting to? Jason Radisson: It's a change management CHRO and/or a change management COO or frankly A CEO. And they're not all in North America, we work pretty globally, and wherever those folks are... And internally, the way we look at it is... In every industry and every country, there's a couple of them, and we're not after late adopters or we're not looking for the middle mass of the market yet, we're really trying to work that front edge of change and helping folks digitize. Joel Cheeseman: Bleeding edge. Yeah. Jason Radisson: Really, truly, yep. And I think if you look, a great reference is Geoffrey Moore, who wrote the book on tech adoption, crossing the chasm, if folks have read that. Joel Cheeseman: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you get into reading and we're done, we're done when you talk about books and whatnot. Jason Radisson: Sorry. Joel Cheeseman: So really quickly... I know you like going on. Real quickly, what do you want to be when you grow up? Is this like we want to flip this in a few... Because you've raised money but not like the money that your competition has raised. So either you're really, really much smarter than your competition, which I'm not putting out of the realm of possibility. Or you have much lighter expectations, like you're gonna be bought by a big gorilla at some point. I don't see IPO in your future. And don't give me some work life balance stuff 'cause you work for Uber. So what do you want to... In 30 seconds, What do you want to be when you grow up? Jason Radisson: We wanna be the HR tech platform to beat for the next 10, 20 years. We literally want to take on the SAPs and the Workdays of the world and replace them with newer technology. Joel Cheeseman: So a new raise of funds is coming in the near future is what I'm hearing with that answer. Chad, this sounds expensive as hell. It sounds like it's way out of my budget. Chad Sowash: Oh it can't be. Joel Cheeseman: I don't know about yours in Portugal, maybe your European real estate empire can handle it. Chad Sowash: It's more affordable here, I'm sure, yes. Joel Cheeseman: Jason, for our listeners that wanna know, How much does this cost? Can I afford it? How do you break down the pricing? Jason Radisson: Really simple. Wherever you are in the world, it costs about what a sandwich costs to put a worker on Movo for the month. It'd be at 5, 10 bucks, somewhere in that ballpark. Joel Cheeseman: All right, Jason, it's not sexy, but it's an answer, I'm gonna go first. Jason Radisson: Okay. Joel Cheeseman: I'm giving you my 2 cents about this company. So I was initially pretty skeptical. Your background doesn't scream HR tech royalty. I love the Uber play. And you turned me on the whole driver surge pricing, for lack of a better term, of how you bring what your experience is to the workplace and scheduling and managing workers and all. So you built that bridge to me, which was great, which was a big pop in your stock in terms of what I was looking at. I initially thought, "They're gonna get destroyed by the big boys and even the ones that are hoping to be big boys with money they've raised, etcetera." I really think you gotta... I won't say you're a squirt gun at a gunfight or a knife at a gunfight, but you gotta build some tanks, brother, you gotta bring some howitzers to the party and then we can really, I think, start talking about your future. You've got big goals, I do think there's room for a lot of winners, I don't think there's a winner-take-all, Coke, Pepsi, and that's it. I think that a lot of companies are gonna be appealing to certain industries. I like that you're targeting healthcare and... What's the other one? Jason Radisson: And retail, hospitality also. Joel Cheeseman: And retail, so you're focused, again, it's a big world, a big market, I think you're global and your mental... Like your focus is global, it's not just Minneapolis or, "Hey, we want to be awesome in St. Paul and the Twin Cities." I think it's much bigger than that. So for me, it's just a money question. Can you raise the money? Can you build the army to go against from the upside, the paradoxed, the fountains, but then also the big boys, the UKGs, the ADPs, Workday I might throw in there, I don't know if you do or not. So you're stuck in this middle ground, like if you want to be the thing, you gotta raise money. So for me, like until you raise that money and build that army, it's a golf clap from me. [applause] Joel Cheeseman: But I'm super optimistic about the business and I like your Uber experience, I think it's gonna pay off in a unique way in our space. Chad, you're up. Chad Sowash: Oh, here we go. Okay, so Jason, I gotta say early adopters and down-for-change management is not the profile of the HR masses. And I know you're just looking for the bleeding-edge people, but those are gonna be very hard to find. And there's also a lot of catching up to do because one of the gorillas out there, that we mentioned earlier, they're about at 10 million users per month, you guys are around 70,000. Right? So again, there's a lot of ground to make up. Other than that, it really feels like Movo is skating to the puck. Mobile-first for frontline hiring. Mobile workforce management is a winner in the frontline space, period. Right? Hiring 600,000 people in 24 months, that's nothing to shake a stick at. Sticky apps being the actual lifestyle app, process automation, AI load balancing, some of the shit that we've never heard in this space before. I think Joel is wrong with regard to you needing to actually raise a shit ton more money, I think you are in line to be an amazing pilot fish. Definitely get some money, you don't have to go out there and get a shit ton of money, but if you are the RC Cola to the Coke and Pepsi out there, I think you're gonna do damn well. And for that reason, my friend, you're gonna get a big applause from me. [applause] Joel Cheeseman: Congratulations Jason. How do you feel? Jason Radisson: Thanks guys, it's been awesome, yeah. We're gonna raise it, it's gonna be lean. We've learned also... We've all had the hangover raising too much and maybe it's a little bit of a founder being cautious. Chad Sowash: A founder, being cautious and smart, and also, yes, hey, you're just riding a different wave, that's cool. Joel Cheeseman: Fair enough. Now, in the green room, let's talk about this new wife-swapping product that you're gonna be launching soon. Just kidding. For those out there again, Jason, where do you send them if they wanna learn more about Movo? Jason Radisson: Yeah, you can find us on LinkedIn Movo HQ, or you can find us at our website @movo.co, C-O. Joel Cheeseman: That's another firing squad. Jason is still alive and kicking. Chad, another one in the Can. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: This has been the Firing Squad, be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys @chadcheese.com today, that's W-W-W dot C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E dot com.

No one in the world of work likes form-filling, complex systems and bureaucracy. Yet, teams need to feel motivated, aligned, and accountable on the job, which usually means a lot of that stuff we hate. So what's an employer to do? OnLoop is here to turn every manager into a supercharged coach, and CEO and founder Projjal "JJ" Ghatak is on Firing Squad to try and prove his company has the juice to fulfill that promise and take it to established players like Lattice, 15five, Culture Amp and others. Does this former Uber executive's startup have what it takes to survive Chad & Cheese? Gotta listen to find out. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids, the Chad & Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Oh yeah, what's up everybody, it's your webmaster's favorite podcast, AKA The Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman, joined as always, the Luigi to my Mario... Chad: Hello. Joel: Chad Sowash is in the house, and we are happy to welcome Projjal JJ Ghatak, CEO and founder at OnLoop to the Firing Squad. JJ, welcome. Projjal Ghatak: Thank you for having me. Chad: All the way from Singapore. It's midnight. It's midnight in Singapore. This is what JJ is doing for us. Joel: We are building bridges around the world. Our first Singaporean guest. So we are excited about that, for sure. So, before we get into the nitty-gritty of the business, let our listeners know who you are, what makes JJ tick? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So, I live in Singapore with my wife where, we both grew up in Asia, so I grew up in India, and she grew up in the Philippines, but she's American, I'm Singaporean. We have our first child on the way and that's going to be one confused kid with Filipino and Indian parents and a US and Singapore passport, so we'll have fun with that. I've been to 49 countries, I have a weird accent, which is probably 75% American and 25% others. And I think what makes me tick is a general curiosity about the human condition. And in a world where Elon Musk is trying to take us to Mars, I'm trying to make humans better. And I think economies... Joel: Good luck with that. Projjal Ghatak: And technologies exist to make humans better, and so making humans better is what makes me tick. Joel: Well, that is a lofty goal. That is a lofty goal, well, Chad... Chad: The human condition. [chuckle] Joel: Yeah. Chad, why don't you tell him what he's won by being on the Firing Squad today? Chad: Alcohol helps the human condition. Welcome to Firing Squad, JJ. Here's what's gonna happen. So at the sound of the bell, you're gonna have two minutes to pitch OnLoop. At the end of two minutes, we're going to hit you up with about 20 minutes of Q and A, be sure to be concise or you're gonna get hit by the crickets, which means tighten it up. At the end of Q and A, you're gonna receive either a big applause, which means you've nailed it just like the Baltimore Ravens blowout playoff win. Get the bubbly ready because we're predicting a championship. Golf clap. Well, you squeaked one through like the Kansas City Chiefs did against the Bills. Be happy, but you still have a ton of work to do. Or, oh my God, the Firing Squad. This is worse than a Buffalo Bills wide right field goal or a Ron DeSantis smile, kids. All you can do now is hang your head, pack it up and go home. Get ready for some Firing Squad. Are you ready, Joel? Joel: Are you ready, JJ, is the better question. Chad: Let's go. Joel: Two minutes starts, now. Projjal Ghatak: Hey folks, I'm Projjal and I'm the CEO and founder of OnLoop. OnLoop is a gen AI company that is focused on increasing the effectiveness of managers globally. The company was born about three years ago in 2020, right when the world was moving from an in-office workplace to a remote workplace, to really redefine how teams of the future are assessed and developed. I spent many years at companies like Accenture and Uber running very large organizations and were increasingly frustrated by manual bureaucratic processes like performance management and a ton of learning tools that were, at best, never used, at worst, hated, by me and my teams. And through the process of the last three years, we've really come up with our own proprietary framework that we call collaborative team development. Projjal Ghatak: That's a hierarchical framework of managing each person's energy, their goals in terms of targets, projects, and skills, celebrate and improve feedback to identify superpowers and blind spots. And then finally, ongoing personalized learning based on specific goals and specific feedback. We then take the friction out of that by using AI to rewrite feedback so we can take people's raw observations, rewrite that using a standard situation behavior impact framework, as well as extracting behaviors from it, as well as make it much easier to take simple goals and sort of flush them out in terms of milestones, et cetera. And then we run a habit loop through a well-designed product and sort of formulating what we call a clarity score that takes everything that's happening around those five layers and help managers take next actions for every team member. We started with a problem and we set up the software... Joel: Your time is up, JJ. Projjal Ghatak: That's it. That's where we are. Joel: Thanks for the pitch. All right. We always start with the name, OnLoop, it sounds like a new Keanu Reeves movie. How'd you come up with it? You started with io, I think. Now you have a dot-com. Tell us the story about the name. Projjal Ghatak: Yeah, so actually, I'd come up with a company name called Curate about three and a half years ago, and so we used that when we first started. But Curate was impossible to ever get curate.com. And if people can't find you, that's a problem. And so as we thought about renaming the company, I think being able to get a dot-com was a huge factor. And in the early days, we talked a lot about fixing broken feedback loops in organizations and helping sort of managers and teams stay on-loop. And so through a narrowing process, we landed on OnLoop, both from a logistics perspective around digital identity, as well as a correlation with what we were doing with companies. Joel: Okay. So you were at Uber before OnLoop. It seems like a bit of a stretch, we usually have startups that have some recruiting experience or had a startup in recruiting before or worked for an employment or work related company, how did you make the leap from Uber to OnLoop? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So I think the common thread that goes through my entire career, starting right from Accenture back in the day, was that developing people around me was just something that I naturally did. And then while I was at Stanford doing a two-year MBA, we spoke so much about feedback and leadership being the core components of what builds great organizations. And so this sort of, this sort of aspect that people drive business outcomes and that sort of being a core job of an executive was something that was pretty ingrained early on in my career. And seeing Uber go from 9,000 to 27,000 people personally leading teams of 50-150, having to do calibrations every six months and seeing sort of the time inefficiency as well as the bias and injustice in those conversations led to a level of frustration that led me to solving this problem. Projjal Ghatak: So two weeks before... Two weeks after I left Uber, I wrote a two pager call TalentTech in terms of everything that I felt was broken from the lens of an end user leader or a manager less from a functional org like HR, and I think we've seen this in IT happen in the last 10 years, where people sort of build tools for engineers, designers, product managers directly. And unfortunately all the tools have been built for an HR use case versus a manager or leader use case. And so, you know, I decided we need to sort of tackle all of these talent problems primarily from the lens of the manager or the leader, and then secondarily from the lens of HR, which is something that we've seen happen in IT in the last 10 or 12 years. Joel: So you launched in 2020, and 2021 you raised $5.5 million it looks like. What have you done with the money? When is the next round of funding if there is gonna be one? Like talk about the investment. Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So we actually raised the pre-seed of two and then sort of stayed in stealth until we got to a product that we wanted to talk about. And then sort of, we started working with GPT3 back in 2021. And one of the first prototypes we built was taking small bits of bite-sized feedback and sort of putting that together in a coherent summary as our first iteration of an automated performance review. And we saw pretty early that that tech was gonna get mainstream and that's when we raised our three and a half, and sort of started talking publicly. And we were the first company in the world to have our automate performance reviews. And actually, if you look at McKinsey data around managers and how to make their lives easier, performance reviews comes up consistently as a use case where sort of AI is deeply helpful if it's used the right way. Projjal Ghatak: Unfortunately, it's used in the wrong way today where people just make up stuff in ChatGPT, which is not helpful. But taking sort of continual observations and sitting them together with AI in a consistent manner is actually pretty powerful. And so we sort of, sort of did a wait list launch in September, 2021. Over the course of 2021 and 2022, the platform got a whole lot better, the tech got a whole lot better. Our sort of core application got a whole lot better and really started monetizing, sort of at the beginning of 2023, we sort of 6x the business. We're sort of at about 200-300k in ARR today. We will 5x the business over the course of 2024. We are in the process of raising a $2 million round to sort of get us way past PMF and sort of build repeatability. And so we're at a stage where we've identified creative agencies and sort of post PMF impact tech companies as sort of target markets where we wanna build repeatability around. We sort of serve customers globally, but our, our core markets are the US, Singapore, Japan, Australia, and the UAE. Chad: Jesus that's broad. Joel: Are you calling the 2 million a, A round? That's real, that seems more like a bridge. Projjal Ghatak: In Singapore, it's interesting, like we raise a $2 million pre-seed, that's a Series A in Singapore for a lot of companies. And so, so you know, I think funding rounds and what to call them is [laughter] is sort of not... Joel: Got it. Projjal Ghatak: Not a thing that is... Joel: Different world. I got it. I got it. You're not in Silicon Valley anymore. Chad: Different world. Different world. Okay. So you're talking about your footprint. Your footprint is, it seems like all over the place. You just, did you just throw the US in there because it's a big pile of money because you're, you're there Asia-Pac, you've got it right there. You can go ahead and nail that and then, you know, expand in the US later. Why are you focusing all over the place? Projjal Ghatak: Yes, it's funny. So, you know, in many ways, we're primarily a US startup that has a distributed global team. And so I went full-time on the company in April, 2020, Singapore shut down on seventh April, 2020. And we sort of started fundraising largely in the US in May, 2020. And actually got inbound from Square Peg, which is Australia's largest VC who led our pre-seed at the time. And our team right from the get go was distributed across US, Canada, India, Singapore and Philippines. So, and, for me, we actually did not acquire any customers outside the US until we were clear what we were building. Projjal Ghatak: 'Cause we didn't want to accidentally build a product that wasn't for the US. And once it was clear what we were doing, we then sort of added other developed countries to the mix. And actually over the course of 2023, the US had a really tough year, and we saw sort of our APAC revenue grow a lot quicker than the US revenue and sort of having the US and developed APAC sort of makes a natural hedge one against the other, for our revenue too. So today our revenues are about 35% US, 65% APAC. I sort of expect that to be roughly 50/50 sort of moving forward long term. Chad: Okay. Okay. So OnLoop on the website it says, "As easy to use as a fitness tracker." Explain how that works. Joel: What's a fitness tracker, Chad? What's a fitness tracker? [laughter] Chad: It's underneath your Lay's potato chips. Your wife got you one, but you've never put it on. Yeah, no, it's okay. Projjal Ghatak: I saw the Oura ring on your hand and, you know, I think what fitness trackers have done is that it's really demystified what being healthy is and, broken it down into you're either not sleeping well or not eating and drinking well or not working out. And usually you're drinking way too much alcohol and which is why regular drops. And, that's usual. That's usually what happens. That's been the biggest insight from the Oura ring for me is don't drink, but you know, we've complexified what being a manager is whereby it feels like this overwhelming burden that nobody understands. And what we've done is broken it down into five constituent parts that demystifies that and then sort of showing a sense of continual progress that builds habit loops around it. Projjal Ghatak: So our app gives you a clarity score for every manager in terms of sort of how much clarity you're driving for each of your team members along the five key components and then next actions to take. And a certain team member might need help around sort of motivation or energy levels, but certain high performers might need improvement feedback to get to the next level. And if you're managing six or eight direct reports, many of which might be all over the place, it is practically impossible to keep track of all of it. And we believe that anybody can be a good manager with the right tools and approaches. We've just not given managers the right approaches to be good and therefore we bitch and moan about bad managers all the time. [laughter] Chad: Well, they don't get any training and we have shitty managers all over the place. So how does a fitness tracker-esque type of tech help a shitty manager become a better manager? Because a lot of it has to do with just caring, right? And when that's not the focus of the company, they're focusing on revenue, sales goals, marketing leads, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then it's like, oh, well, how does Johnny feel today? That's never a priority. So talk about how you can make a shitty toxic culture into a great culture. Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. I don't think anybody walks in the office in the morning and says, I'm gonna be a shit manager today. And there might be some, but I think that's the exception about them all. Chad: That's behavior. That's behavior. Projjal Ghatak: Correct. And usually, being a manager means executing with the team that you have and getting the best out of your team. And sometimes there's an issue with someone's motivation or someone's energy level, but usually where there's a huge gap is in people having clarity on what their priorities and goals are. And actually in most organizations, that is the greatest delta we can drive instead of helping every manager break work down into targets, projects, and skills that each person understands and therefore knows how to prioritize. And so in the same way that nobody who's obese wants to be obese and they're not gonna go from being obese to being Usain Bolt overnight, we can give them a roadmap of micro steps to take to get better. And if they then feel a sense of progress, they will get better over time. And so by breaking it down into what the constituent parts of being a good manager looks like and using tech to sort of drive those inputs continually, you can make a manager better one day at a time. Chad: Okay. Now, one of the things that we see with tech over and over and over and over is that great vision, great vision and kind of there's a little bit of overpromising that happen. So on the site, it says, "Prioritize individual well-being as the foundation for thriving organization." I totally get that. But does the system analyze pay equity, living wages, those types of things? Because those are the things that first prioritize employee wellness. So where do you begin and where do you end with regard to understanding wellness within an actual individual, within an organization? Projjal Ghatak: It's a great question. And for us, the starting point is understanding where people's battery levels are, right? And being intentional about it. And someone might be operating at 10% battery for a variety of reasons, and that's where, to your point, the skill of a manager and having that conversation and the app sort of would prompt you then to ask the conversation to understand what's going on. And it's impossible to predict what the ranges of those, of those things are. But the first part of it is driving awareness around it. And what we've realized as a company is that tech will not purely solve this problem. We've now built an approach and a framework to drive this in organizations and in many ways, we feel that we've built the OKR or Agile of today of what exists in a hybrid and generative AI world to give people a way to think about sort of overall performance. Projjal Ghatak: And for me, well-being is a high ROI activity to drive performance 'cause I went through clinical anxiety in 2022 as a founder and I saw what that did to my productivity and performance as a professional. And so, yes, I care about people, but for me, it's about tracking the right things to bring the best out of people. And there's enough research now shows that if your phone or a human being is running at 5% battery, no matter how powerful that battery is, it's gonna lose charge and die out. And burnout is a very specific sort of outcome that takes place. And that very much sits at the base of performance. Joel: Yeah. Wanna talk about, you had mentioned using AI wrong, but your thesis is basically that traditional performance management is broken, so dovetails into a question about competition. I mean, this feels like a lot of brand awareness with Lattice, 15Five, Culture Amp just come to the top of mind. Talk about the competition and how are they doing it incorrectly? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. Jack Altman's got out and said there is no room for generative AI in performance management. So he's being public about it. And that's because the pain of performance management and writing reviews does not lie with HR, it writes with managers and the other ones who suffer in the process. And because we serve managers above all else, we are maniacally focused on driving an experience that lead to consistently positive and fair outcomes while taking the friction out. Lattice, on the other hand is building an HRS because his HR customer wants one system. And so so ultimately what you build is a factor of who your customer is. And my competition from a performance management lens is building for a different buyer who's not necessarily asking for lower friction in how things are done, but their end user, which is the manager is, which is where I'm focused. Joel: So who's the ideal customer for you? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So it's either a GM or an MD of a business unit. So we love selling to creative agencies where there's an MD that runs an org of 50-200, where they understand that the only two levers to retaining talent is better managers or more pay. Often more pay is not doable, so better managers is the answer. Or it's a COO of a growing organization where strategic people, productivity, strategy and ops is often what it's called in tech. I spent a lot of time at Uber in strategy and ops doing a lot of work. Ultimately, my job was to make people productive. And so that function would sort of takes care of how to think about meeting company objectives from the right people. Or it can be someone who runs an org of 50-plus people. We work with the supply chain org, Beyond Meat, for a long time instead of driving motivation and outcomes at a time of rapid change, and so typically it's someone that themselves run an organization of 50-plus people. They can either own a full P&L or own a department or a full company. Joel: So as someone, a proud member of the generation that said rub some dirt on it and shut the hell up, this feels very warm and funny, very, very millennial Gen Z. Talk about the generational divide and wanting this kind of feedback and how your product supports sort of the younger, upcoming generation. Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So obviously, I think everybody wants feedback, right? Like I think the question is, what are people vocal about? And I think with the millennial and Gen Z generation has just been a lot more vocal about they want ongoing feedback. But I think sort of wanting to know where you stand is a fundamental human need that doesn't differ between someone who is millennial or Gen Z or older. But I think what we've done is that we've done things like voice input, et cetera, into the app that makes it easier for habits of what you call older generations that make the product easier from the sense of a leader 'cause ultimately we are selling into a senior exec in many ways and sort of bridging that gap between what people want and what people are comfortable doing. And so for us in our organization we serve, the leader we sell to is typically sort of in their late 30s to early 40s, but the orgs sort of they run, are anywhere between sort of people in the early 20s to ranging all the way. And so as a business, we do need to think about experientially who that applies to, and frankly, a huge benefit that we have is that we have a global diverse team and we are building for ourselves and ultimately we are representative of our market, which helps a ton in having that empathy around who we're building for. Chad: So you, or at least what I've seen from the marketing, you guys are leaning pretty heavily on hybrid work. Why? Projjal Ghatak: We just think the pain is greater, right? So when 30 people are in the same room and working outta the same office, issues around alignment, clarity, visibility, et cetera, are not a burning piece or a pain point, right? And that's why we believe this problem that we're solving is not a new problem, right? This problems existed for a very long time, but there is a double confluence of the problem becoming more acute because the clarifying loops are a lot lesser when people are working in a hybrid setting. And b, generative AI provides us a brand new way to solve an age old problem by taking a lot of the friction out around hot topics like goals and feedback. And so for us, you know, as a problem solver, like I'm a doctor, I'm looking for the most complicated patient who needs my help the most. And typically for what we solve, hybrid organizations need more help. But we have a set of customers who are not hybrid who equally see value in the work that we do. Chad: So how do you collect the performance data? So are you integrated into Salesforce, HubSpot, human capital management platforms? Where are you getting your data? Because I'm gonna need sales data, marketing leads data, attendance, promotion data, that kind of stuff. How do you get the data into your system so that your gen AI can actually mix it up and batch it into something that makes sense to me? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So what exists in other systems is what we call targets, right? So that is sort of hard metrics around what people are achieving. We have a sort of CSB way of uploading that and keeping that going. We haven't done deep integrations yet with all of those platforms, although we are talking to people like Cobalt who have sort of super APIs, that can, that can sort of connect across the board. But actually what we help quantify a lot more is sort of the softer, qualitative behavioral feedback as well as sort of project work or skills work that sort of gets input 360 into the app in a micro manner. And then we create something called a prism summary at the end of it that can exist as a PDF or editable doc or a JSON that can get pushed into an HRIS. So sort of as a platform, we will eventually bidirectionally connect with every HRIS, whereby we'll pick up sort of employee data, as input in the early part and sort of be able to then push outputs on the other end and then sort of being able to pull in targets or tasks from other sort of tools that people would use on the other side. Chad: So it sounds like right now you don't have the bidirectional that's going, so how often does somebody have to manually enter the information through spreadsheet or what, I mean if they get it, they've gotta pull it, they've gotta manually pull it from another system. They probably have to clean up the data and then push it into you guys. So there's a lot of manual work that's going on, right? How often, usually, does that happen? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. So typically there's a big lift that takes place in our organization. Usually at the start of a year or the start of a planning cycle, right? So for larger organizations there's usually a planning cycle that takes place that then sort of sets KPIs or targets at some cadence and sort of uploading that at one go at onboarding is pretty straightforward. And then people sort of keep that updated as they go. Now the kind of companies we work with often don't even have that level of robustness, in terms of sort of where things are kept. And so they're fine with sort of individuals also sort of keeping things updated as they go. What we care a lot more is feedback happening on an ongoing basis and then on a quarterly basis being able to spit out a prism summary that combines goals celebrates and improves. But the core habit that's much more regular and important to drive is driving observations as an individual as well as people working on a particular project to provide observations on a regular basis, which is as simple as an unstructured voice note, which we then convert to structured feedback, and then attach it to a particular goal. Chad: Why aren't you guys focusing on the enterprise? Because the enterprise is one of the hardest performance-driven sets of organizations, number one, but the performance review still sucks. So being able to pull all of that data at scale just makes sense. Why haven't you guys focused narrowly on enterprise? Projjal Ghatak: Great question. So ultimately you build what people ask for. And so we are in the process of getting our SOC 2 certification, and we will more progressively sell to larger companies. Asana today, at 440 million, sells exclusively to CIOs, and that's how they build their business. Asana would not be Asana if they started selling to CIOs on day zero. And so it is, if you're trying to build a disruptive end user product that drives a change in how things are done, you first need to build a coalition among the people they're trying to help, and then eventually push that into a functional organization like HR and IT over time. So as a company, if we become phenomenally successful, we will only sell to HR and IT one day. But HR and IT tend to not be early adopters of products. They tend to be late adopters or laggards in how they buy. And therefore, typically if you're selling to enterprise on day zero, you're not gonna be disruptive and driving change. You will then do what that enterprise is gonna ask you to do. And we're fundamentally changing how companies operate and therefore there's a sequential sort of process on how you go about it. Joel: Chad, I don't know about you, but this sounds crazy expensive. JJ, talk about the pricing. What can a company expect to pay for OnLoop services? Projjal Ghatak: Yes. So this is, this is where when you don't have all the engineers in California, things are a whole lot cheaper. So we sort of start at $500 a month and that sort of covers organizations of up to 50. And then we scale based on organizational size. Our typical sort of sweet spot today, is serving orgs between sort of 100 and 400 people. And that's an org. It may not, it may be a larger company, was the org that we serve. And that sort of works out to about $1,500, $2,000 a month. So it works out to be an 18k to a 25 or 30k contract annually, which is not, which is actually fairly reasonable based on what I've seen people buy at what prices in larger companies. Joel: All right, JJ, that is the bell. It's time to face the Firing Squad. Are you ready, my friend? Projjal Ghatak: I am ready. Joel: All right. Chad, get him. Chad: All right, JJ, I gotta say, so performance management is broken. You are 100% right, but it hasn't been fixed thus far. And you gotta ask yourself why? Right? You gotta ask yourself why, but it's broken. Totally get it. So I understand where you're going. Because I've been in management leadership position since I've been in my early 20s. And do you know what sucks about that position? Performance review. Not just people, I mean people suck, don't get me wrong. But performance review. So using gen AI to spit out summaries, bullets or whatever format the user wants to refresh their memory on their employees wins, losses, and overall performance is unique and wonderful. I mean it's like a breath of fresh air, my friend, if you're integrated into the systems that have the performance data, that's the big key. Right? You're not quite there yet. Chad: There's still some work to get there. I believe you are leaning way too hard on hybrid because in all of those companies, I was even in the US military, we had to do those and they sucked. Right? [chuckle] So there's a lot of, I think, from what I'm listening to you here, whether it's your tam, it's your go-to-market, it's your customer profiles, all of it. It feels like you're still litmus testing. Right? And I get that, but my friend, you've been in this long enough, my advice is you pick a target, you hit that targets over and over and over until you hit that 2 million, 5 million, 6 million, then you sell this. Discipline, my friend. That's one of the things that right now you are missing. Litmus test time is over. This is, this bitch is ready to run. You're not running yet, so therefore gonna give you a golf clap. I think you're there. I just wanna see the discipline and see you just kill it, man. Joel: All right, JJ, not too shabby, but it's my turn, my friend. So buckle up. I'm gonna start with the jockey on this one. I was telling Chad before you got on the call, I said, this dude is a baller. Like look at his LinkedIn profile, you know, his advisory roles, his role at Uber, like the jockey has got it going on, and even your co-founder as well. Chad: Man crush, man crush alert, man crush. Joel: We didn't talk much about the co-founder, but she's stellar too. So, like the jockeys at this company, I think, are, from what I can tell, really really solid. And I think you're the second Uber employee that we've talked to on a startup end, so that, like whatever's in the water at Uber, in terms of people that have gone on to start companies is pretty solid. So as I move on to that into the company itself, look, I think this is where companies are moving and this is where the world is moving. I think from a generational standpoint, younger people want that constant contact. They want that feedback loop. They want it all the time. And if you don't do that as a company, you're going to fall behind. Like there's just no way around it. Joel: I think from Chad's point, managers want the same thing. They want an automated way to keep hands on their team, what's going on, check the pulse on a regular basis. I think that's all where the world is going and there is competition. I think you guys are gonna have a place in that, on that field, no question about it for me. I also think from a recruiting standpoint, people are kind of tired of being on the Jorbo wheel, hamster wheel of let's post another job that was the same job we posted six months ago. Let's like get people back in the whole system of hiring and interviewing, like just people are kind of tired of just being on that hamster wheel for eternity. They're looking at ways to upskill their people. They're looking at ways to make them feel better at work, at helping them become better, either human beings or employees. Joel: So from all those counts, for me, like in raising money, I think the money's gonna come. I think, when the news story crosses our desk that you guys have raised $20, $25 million, it's not gonna surprise me whatsoever. I think you'll be an acquisition target for sure, for a lot of ATSs and other platforms out there. So for me, like this is a no-brainer. It is a big applause. [applause] Joel: Big applause from me. So JJ, big applause from me. Golf clap from Chad. So, take that for what it's worth. But you come out of the Firing Squad with your dignity intact and your face is not bloodied or scarred. So how do you feel? Projjal Ghatak: That was great. I had a great time. Thank you. Y'all were not brutal at all. Joel: Oh, you're welcome. We aim to please. [laughter] Joel: We aim to please. All right, JJ, for our listeners that wanna know more about you, where would you send them? Projjal Ghatak: Yeah. LinkedIn's probably the best. And so search for OnLoop or JJ Ghatak and you'll find me. I read every message that comes through on LinkedIn. I may not reply to everyone, but I do read it. Joel: Even the spam. All right, that is JJ Ghatak from OnLoop, Keanu Reeve's next new movie coming out this summer at onloop.com. Chad, another one in the can. We Out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been The Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad & Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face The Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.chadcheese.com.

What's on tap on this episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast Does Europe? Munich-based company Personio has laid off 101 employees, constituting 5% of its workforce, to strengthen its market position and advance its product roadmap. The layoffs primarily affected the technology and product departments. The move follows Personio's valuation at $8.5 billion, and the boys discuss the trend of venture capital and private equity focusing on headcount growth, emphasizing the importance of revenue. They predict more layoffs from other unicorns that have received substantial funding. The discussion also touches on the IPO plans for Personio and the challenges faced by companies expanding to the US, citing the example of VONQ. The podcast later features a "Who'd You Rather" segment comparing two companies, HireAra and Poetry HR, and their recent funding rounds. The hosts share their preferences, highlighting the significance of the founders in their decision-making. The episode concludes with a discussion on Amazon's French arm being fined over 27 million pounds for implementing an intrusive surveillance system to monitor staff performance. The hosts express varying opinions on the impact of the fine and the ongoing global conversation about workplace monitoring and employee privacy. Looking to attend House of HR's E-recruitment Congress in March? Use CODE CP51000 and get 50% OFF when you register at https://www.erecruitment-congress.com TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. [music] Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Ooohhhh, yeah. Three guys who feel totally violated by all the European privacy laws, and we kinda like it. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel "Jamison" Cheesman. Chad: I'm Chad "How many did they sell?" Sowash. Lieven: And I'm Lieven "Stressed until the congress" Van Nieuwenhuyze. [laughter] Joel: And on this episode, Personio Gets Laid, Who'd You Rather, and Amazon's excessive intrusiveness. Let's do this. Chad: Dude, that's laid off. That's, the laid. That's laid off. Joel: Oh. I read that headline wrong. Oh. Oh, dammit. Chad: It's okay. Joel: 'Cause those Germans get nuts. Those Germans get out of control. I know it. I know. Chad: That's what I've heard. Joel: I've seen the Oktoberfest videos on TikTok. [laughter] Joel: Lieven, have you been to Oktoberfest? Lieven: Not yet. But I'm definitely going to do it. Joel: What? No. Lieven: I'm definitely going someday. I've never been to the real one. In Munich, never. Joel: That's it. We're recording an episode at some point in Oktoberfest, at Oktoberfest. Chad: There's no reason not to. [laughter] Chad: There's no reason not to. Lieven: We should. Chad: We're manifesting it right now. Joel: That's right. Chad: We're gonna make it happen. Joel: And sponsored by Personio at this point. They don't know it yet... [laughter] Joel: But they're gonna be sponsoring our trip to Oktoberfest. Chad: They don't have to know it. They don't have to know. Joel: They don't have to know. [laughter] Chad: It's all good. It's all good. Yeah. Joel: So Lieven's been busy. I'd say we get right to his shoutout 'cause he's got a tight schedule with this conference coming up. Lieven, what's going on? Lieven: Do you know how much work it is to organize a congress? Joel: No clue. Chad: I do. Joel: Chad does know. Chad knows. Lieven: If you ever feel about maybe getting into organizing congresses, just forget about it and do something else. [laughter] Lieven: But I think everything now is more or less okay. Joel: What's Rika gonna say when she hears that? [laughter] Lieven: Hi, Rika. [laughter] Lieven: Hi, Rika. How are you? [laughter] Lieven: I don't know. She'll say, "It's your job and get on it," or something. Chad: "And get it done." Yes. Lieven: "Get it done and don't complain, don't whine." Something like that. [laughter] Lieven: That's Rika. Joel: That sounds like Rika. Lieven: But we still love her. Oh, well, so the congress, it's still March 19th. Everything is okay by now. The registrations are coming in. I saw something about, was it UNLEASH who were boasting to have 900 people? Chad: RecFest. Yeah. Yeah. Lieven: RecFest. It was RecFest. I'm sorry. Registering even before the website was up or something. We have 300 already. It's almost the same thing. It's almost the same thing. Joel: Intimacy... Chad: 'Cause you've got 750 seats only, that's correct? Lieven: Yeah, that's right. So they'll be filled. Yeah. Chad: Okay. Yep. And they can be filled at half price if you go to chadcheese.com/events. Joel: Oh yeah. Lieven: That's right. Chad: Up in the header, you're gonna see a beautiful E-recruitment Congress. It's gonna be nice. It's gonna be lovely, it's gonna be beautiful. There's gonna be a registration button. Just hit the registration button, use the discount code that'll be right there. And next thing you know, kids, half off. Joel: So sexy. Lieven: And I would prefer to sell all those seats for the full price. But... [laughter] Lieven: If you really, really insist, you can use the promo you'll find on the Chad and Cheese website. [laughter] Lieven: Anyway. Sorry, Rika. Sorry. They made me do it. Chad: Yeah, we did. Joel: Love some Rika. Love some Rika. What do you got, Chad, for shout-outs? Chad: Oh, baby. You know what time it is. Joel: Oh, no. Chad: Shout-out time for Wrexham. Shout-out time for Wrexham. [laughter] Joel: Gee, a Wrexham shout-out from Chad, shocker. Chad: If you listen to the show, you know I love me some Wrexham, you know I love me some Welcome to Wrexham. Although, Wrexham sells more than Arsenal. That's right, kids. Arsenal, in the USA. And from my understanding, Arthur Okonkwo, who is the newest keeper for Wrexham, is one of the biggest selling jerseys. So, big shout-out to Wrexham. Europe, there's one thing that America can do better than anybody else in the world. That's... Joel: Buy shit. [chuckle] Chad: Productize and monetize. Productize and monetize, and that's exactly what we did. So shout-out to Wrexham and the Premier League. Joel: And shout-out secondarily to China who sponsors Wrexham with TikTok, who clearly is probably amping the algorithm to sell more TikTok jerseys. I mean, Wrexham jerseys... [laughter] Joel: In the United States. That's a good one, Chad. Are you gonna make it to Wrexham this year? You have it in your schedule, right? You're gonna make it to Wrexham? Chad: I am right now planning, after RecFest, to be able to shoot up to Wrexham and hopefully catch a match. If not catch a match, I'll have to take a look at schedules. At least just check out the place, for God's sakes. Have a beer around the stadium. Joel: I have a sneaking suspicion that you won't be the only American walking around in Wrexham this time of year thanks to the... Chad: Yeah. With a Wrexham jersey on. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Thanks to the success of the show. I feel like there'll be a few Americans there. Well, my shout-out goes out to no Americans whatsoever. The Six Nations rugby tournament is happening as we record this podcast. Chad: What is this? Joel: So this is great. This, to our American friends and anyone else that it's probably available to, Netflix now has a documentary on Six Nations. They look at last year's tournament, they highlight each team, they highlight the best players from those teams and the coaches. And it's a real nice introductory to rugby and the Six Nations, and the countries and the personalities around it. I, for one, kind of interested in this. Ireland is a juggernaut that is looking to be a back-to-back Grand Slam champion, which has never been done apparently. They just beat France 38-17, and France is arguably the second best team. Scotland had a big comeback win this past weekend. So there's good stuff here. It's not quite as accessible in America television-wise as I would like it to be. But it is a cool deal. These countries get really fired up, as they normally do. They don't go to war anymore. They play rugby and soccer. And this is a great way to, I don't know, experience the passion around beating each other up on a rugby field because they can't do it on a battlefield. So, shout-out from me to the Six Nations rugby tournament. Chad: And then also Netflix 'cause Netflix is putting out some amazing global content. They just put out a limited series around the World Cup. Soccer, our... As you will know in Europe, is football, and focused on captains. It's entitled Captains. Following Messi, Ronaldo, all the big captains. They're doing some amazing, amazing work in being able to get that divide, across the divide for rugby, football/soccer, etcetera, etcetera. Joel: And don't forget, they just signed the WWE contract to show that on. So between that, and there's also a NASCAR documentary, we're really, really exporting Americanism to the rest of the world, thanks to Netflix. Chad: Thank God for Six Nations. [laughter] [music] Chad: Topics. Joel: All right. Let's get right to the news, everybody. Munich-based Personio has laid off 101 employees constituting 5% of its workforce, primarily from its technology and product departments. They said the move is a strategic decision to strengthen its position in the market and advance its product roadmap. In case you missed it, Personio valued at $8.5 billion specializes in providing recruitment services to SMEs and they operate in multiple locations globally, serving over 10,000 clients across Europe with a workforce of 2100 employees. Chad, what are your thoughts on the Personio headcount reduction? Chad: We've seen over the years that VC and PE really focus on headcount growth after they give out the money. They wanna see heads, they wanna see butts in seats to be able to demonstrate success. I know that, you're gonna need people to drive innovation and product. But when a lot of these unicorn companies get crazy amounts of cash, they are expected, they are expected, by VC and PE to just flush headcount growth. This is what the end result becomes in many cases. Then we look at the founder, we point our finger at the founder, say, "Why did you do this? This is ridiculous." It is, but they are at the whims, in many cases, of PE and VC. At the end of the day, this shouldn't be a surprise. And we're gonna see a lot more of this from other unicorns, which we have already, but we'll see more, that had to... They had to go down the same road. They had to, they were told to. S?: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Let me give you three letters on my commentary. I... Chad: Oh, Jesus Christ. Joel: P and O. These guys were talking about IPO a year ago in '23 of January. And it's now a year later and they've been, still been talking about IPO. We released a while back Coming to America. They've opened up an office in New York city. They continue to grow their headcount in Europe. And they need to cut some costs, if they're going to go IPO. They need to add a little bit to the bottomline. Like Chad mentioned, they are not yet profitable even after raising $724 million. Cutting headcount is a great way to boost the bottomline and look great on Wall Street. I think that's a big part of the move to lay off a fairly modest 5% of your workforce. I think the second thing to point out is that, most of the people laid off were in the technology and product departments. Joel: I have to wonder, as Meta stock goes up 20% in Mark Zuckerberg's year of efficiency, if there's not a lot of pressure from investors to say, "Hey, do we really need that much in the way of technology and product?" And that pressure is coming down on everyone and Personio is part of that. They probably overhired in '22 and '23 in the tech and product department. They are now making a change to balance that out by laying off more tech and product people. And as a side note, I think we're gonna see a lot more companies laying off their tech and product people, thanks to Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook's/Meta's year of efficiency. Time will tell if '24 is the year that we see the Personio IPO. But I think this headcount reduction is a sign that they still are on track for a 2024 IPO. Lieven: Could be, could be. But I think I read somewhere that they are planning on hiring 150 new profiles, so they're laying off 100 persons, but they are hiring more. I don't think it's budget cuts, could be. But I think when a company is growing, when they're evolving, at a certain point, they'll need different specialties and they'll need all skills than they used to need. Sometimes you can reskill people and you can have them grow with you, but sometimes those people just don't want to or they can't be reskilled. And sometimes it's just good to have new blood in the company. So I don't think it's that's weird to have 5% of your people laid off. Now, it's drastic because it's all at once. But there's a normal turnaround, 5% isn't that much. And it still sucks, of course, for the people getting laid off. It's always a blow. That didn't really strike me as something unexpected or anything. I do have a problem though, with valuation of eight billion for a company that still isn't profitable. It's absurd. There are so many companies making decent amounts of money that could use a bit of extra cash to grow even faster. But probably someone knows something I don't and they're happily investing and continue, continuously doing so. Is it known, by the way, what revenue they have? I couldn't find it immediately. Joel: Yeah, AIM Group reported they're not a profitable company yet. So wherever they got it from, we don't know revenues. Lieven: But they could have a lot of revenue, but maybe their costs are even higher. I don't know. But I'm not sure about the revenue. If the revenue was growing fast, then it would make sense to give them a real big valuation because maybe in two years they would become very profitable. Like Tesla did, for example. They've been burning money for years and suddenly they're making cash like water. But I don't think this is the case here, but I'm not sure. So for me, I don't know, whatever. Joel: I think Chad and I talked on the weekly show about VONQ, successful European company coming to America, hiring top talent and getting a team around that is by all accounts a great team. Wheels come off, talent leaves, laid off, that did not work out for VONQ. So as Personio looks to come to America, I hope they listen to that episode and look at VONQ as an example of knowing how difficult it is for a European company to come to America. I don't know where those additional staff came from, but they're gonna have to hire people in America, and hopefully for them they do it right because it has gone very wrong for many companies in Europe that are trying to come to America. Chad: Yeah. I wanna say your prediction in 2024 of no IPO, I don't see this happening in 2024. I think they're getting ready for 2025. I don't think as many people look at Zuckerberg as you'd like to think that they do, or Elon Musk. I think if they want to use them as an excuse to do something, maybe, but that's not why they're doing it. And at the end of the day, also, you're talking about the cycles, Lieven. And I agree 100%. You've got a cycle of the type of talent that you need in an organization. And we've gotta remember, these guys are still somewhat of a startup. They've got a shit ton of cash, they're a startup. And the cycle is, you build the product, and then you have that MVP and then you go to market. Well, a lot of these companies who got a shit ton of cash, after they did the MVP, they didn't turn on the revenue jets and focus on, "Okay, the product's built to an MVP level. Now let's go sell the shit out of it, get into a revenue generating cycle, and then start to build more features and whatnot later." I think a lot of these unicorns, unfortunately, they don't follow that normal cycle. And this is what we're seeing happens. PE forces headcount, headcount growth, and then also you see that they skip a few steps because they got so much fucking cash. Joel: There are probably one or two Facebook shareholders that would disagree with your sentiment on Mark Zuckerberg. [laughter] Joel: Let's take a quick break and we'll play a little game of Who'd You Rather. All right, guys, it's that time again. We all know how to play a little, Who'd You Rather. In case you don't know, we talk about two companies that have recently raised money and each of us sounds off on who we'd rather. S?: What are you doing, stepbro? [chuckle] Joel: All right. In one corner we have, London-based HireAra has raised €527,000 in seed funding for its AI-powered candidate presentation platform designed for recruitment agencies. The platform enables recruiters to showcase their brand and candidates effectively to hiring clients, thereby expediting the placement of candidates in new roles. The seed funding will support the expansion of HireAra's sales team, introduce two new content products in 2024, and advance its mission to modernize the recruitment industry. That is HireAra. And in the opposing corner, we have... S?: Welcome to All Things Scottish. Our slogan is, "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" Joel: That's right. It's Glasgow-based Poetry HR. They've successfully concluded an early stage funding round to accelerate their mission of providing talent acquisition and recruitment process outsourcing solutions to the US and UK markets. The funding will be utilized to expand the product and technology team, as well as to promote the company's 30 generative AI-powered recruiter enablement solutions through marketing campaigns. The co-founder and director and friend of the show, Adam Gordon, has also founded Candidate.ID, which was acquired by iCIMS. The startup touts over 280 companies as users. Investors in the round include Recruiting Ventures, Doug Berg, and some asshole name Chad Sowash. So, guys, that is our two... [laughter] Joel: That is our two competing companies. Chad, you are commenting on why you're investing, but not exclusive... We're just gonna guess that you're gonna rather do Poetry. Chad: Oh yeah. Duh. Yeah. Joel: Please feel free to not because it'd make for a great show. But otherwise... [laughter] Joel: Let's go to you in terms of who'd you rather, and why'd you invest in Poetry HR? Chad: Yeah. In advising founders over the years, one of the things that we've talked on the show, Firing Squad after Firing Squad is, always bet on the jockey. And there are two amazing jockeys at Poetry. You've got Adam Gordon and you've got Mike Hughes. And I was with them, an investor and also an advisor with Candidate.ID. And not only did they blow that one out of the water from an expectation standpoint, they were able to switch and go directly into something that we've been talking about for years. The recruiter desktop is a fucking mess. There are 27,000 tabs that they have open. They've got 30 different platforms they have to use, yada, yada, yada. And Joel and I, you and I have been talking about the platform to rule them all for, shit, about seven years now. Chad: At this point, the platform to rule them all is not going to exist. What's going to exist is the recruiter desktop that allows the enablement of pretty much all these systems in one screen, or at least the connectivity between that, and then being able to use AI to create that efficiency. So, two things. We've got these amazing founders who I already have experience with. And it's 2:00 AM in the bar, you're definitely going to go to the hot blonde that you already know. And then secondarily, they've got a road of success in the space, they've got connections and they know exactly where they want to go to be able to look for an exit. Which is one of the reasons why I love these guys, I'm incredibly biased, but definitely Poetry all day. S?: Ay, papi. Joel: Just for the record, the girls that I knew I had a less chance of with than the girls I didn't know... [laughter] Joel: 'Cause they knew what a jerk I was. The best companies are ones that typically become time machines. In other words, they give you time back, they save you time 'cause time is money. So if I can save you time, then you're more willing or more able or more likely to use my product than if you have to actually invest more time in your day to use the product. And frankly, that's a big problem with a lot of products in our space, is they require more time and energy to figure them out than they do save you time. Both of these services make a really hard sell to how much time they're going to save you. And if you go to HireAra's site, there's literally a calculator where you can put in your recs and your employees and put in the numbers, and it'll spit out exactly how much time you'll be saving with the product. Which is kind of cool, I like the ROI calculator. Poetry on the other hand, exclusively, or not exclusively, but they highlight extensively that they will save recruiters 31 minutes per day by using their products. So they've actually, I don't know how Adam came up, it sounds like some Scottish math to me, but I don't know how they got so granular that they can say... [laughter] Joel: 31 minutes. I'm surprised he didn't throw in like 22 seconds or something to make it more exact. So both these companies are looking to save you time. To me, this comes down to the jockey. I'll echo Chad's sentiments. Adam has a great reputation, at least out of Scotland. Within Scotland, I don't know, he's a little sketchy and shady. But outside of Scotland, I think he's a solid dude. He's got a track record. He has done a fantastic job of branding himself, as well as his organizations within the industry. He'll talk about, like, "Hey, when I'm starting a company, I'm wearing a kilt, I'm going to these crazy Firing Squad things and being nutty," because he knows how to sell a product and that's going to translate into more than likely selling this product in six months to a year, maybe a little longer for a better price. But he's in the pole position to sell his thing. So jockey-wise, Poetry is head and shoulders, I think, above the founders of HireAra. In terms of the product, for me, there's just not much of a moat to say, "Here's a CV and we're gonna translate it into a cute branded, maybe highlighted or kind of a TL;DR version of the resume and then sell that as a staffing firm." Joel: I don't see a ton of value there, and I don't see a ton of a moat where other people can't do that in a pretty quick and easy way. Particularly with AI the way that it is, to be able to take content and put it in a format that is more easily readable by your customers, I don't see a big moat there. In contrast, Poetry, more of a moat. They have competition. They're probably gonna see more. But I feel like there's more of an emotional connection because if I build my tools within Poetry, I have a connection there, it's personal. To me, it feels warm and fuzzy, it feels... The connection is there, and it's real. Both companies are priced pretty similarly. I don't feel like it's a... Both of these guys will probably be acquired at some point. The staffing space in the UK is really competitive and people are spending money there as well. But for me, as much as it pains me to give Adam Gordon more pub... [laughter] Joel: I'm gonna go with Poetry as my Who'd You Rather. Congratulations, Adam. Lieven? Lieven: Cool. Did I get it right? Adam Gordon didn't only invest in Poetry, but also in HireAra. S?: Say what? Chad: That's great. So they both are looking for an exit. [laughter] Lieven: I guess so. And Adam Gordon says about HireAra, "I've invested in HireAra because I can see that our technology is a logical adoption for every agency big and small, and that it can save thousands, blah, blah, blah." But... And they're quoting him, so it must be true. Anyways, when I was doing my homework, I said, "Okay, if Adam Gordon, my favorite Scotsman... " S?: Welcome to All Things Scottish. Our slogan is, "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" Lieven: There's one even... Whatever. He's investing in HireAra, that must be doing something good. But then I heard about Poetry and he's even launching it. So, I think I'll go for both. [laughter] Lieven: Yeah. Just like Adam did. [laughter] [music] Joel: That's right, he went for two, he went for the boats and the hoes. Everybody, that is another episode of, Who'd You Rather. Looks like Poetry is poetry in motion. All right. Let's go to a company that is not so much Chad's favorite company, Amazon. Well, France's data watchdog has fined Amazon's French arm over £27 million or €35 million, wherever you're listening from, for implementing "excessively intrusive surveillance system to monitor staff performance." The system included indicators tracking employees inactivity time and the speed of scanning items deemed illegal and excessive by investigators. Amazon disagrees with the fine and will probably appeal, asserting the necessity of industry-standard warehouse management systems for safety, quality, and efficiency. Critics say the broader context highlights the ongoing global conversation on the balance between workplace monitoring and employee privacy. Chad, what are your thoughts on Amazon getting pinched in France? Chad: I get the safety concerns. If that was the case, maybe they would slow down the belt a little bit and not force some of their employees to piss in garbage cans when they're on the line. It's a little bit of a balance here. They're trying to tiptoe around the tulips. I don't see any employee wanting to be monitored, whether it's a monitoring system that's on their computer or in a warehouse. But at the end of the day, especially in Europe, this is not going to fly. If they want these practices to work, they're just gonna have to use them in the US because we'll allow that shit all day. So I think in Europe, they need to have a much different business model and being able to ensure that their "safety" is actually happening versus the US. Joel: We talked recently about Google in South Korea, and Google behaving like an American company in Korea, which has led to people not leaving the office and just doing what Americans would not do. Chad: They were requested to resign. They were requested to resign. [laughter] Joel: Yes, requested to resign. Yeah. Go see the episode if you wanna hear about this. But my point is that, Americans coming to foreign countries, behaving like American companies and then thinking that people will behave in a similar way is now biting Amazon in the ass, just like it has Google and Facebook and others. [laughter] Joel: America, yeah, we're cool with peeing in trash cans. We're cool with monitor... We expect monitoring. Chad: No, we're not. Joel: Well... [laughter] Joel: We do it. And Amazon is still making a lot of money, and my wife is still ordering from Amazon. So, it does work from that perspective. You can't go to Europe and expect things to go the way that they do in America. The question for me is, is a 35 million euro fine a big deal to Amazon? No, it's not. But... They'll tweak their shit in France and try to get around as much as they can by still keeping. They'll appeal, like they said, they'll draw this thing out. Will other countries that Amazon is in in Europe also file suit? Probably. Is it built in to Amazon's budget? Probably. Are things really gonna change in any significant way? Not today, not tomorrow, maybe 10 years from now. But as far as I can see, this is Amazon playing the American game of, "Let's go to the courts and let's string this thing out. And if there is a fine, well, we'll just go to the couch cushions and find the money, write a check," and it's business as usual, full steam ahead for companies as big as Amazon. Lieven: I've been following the company since 2015 and it's been a whole series of stories about wrongdoing to their own employees, and it's been that way for, I guess, even longer than I've been following them. They're called a low price and low wage giant, and I've got a problem with that. If their owner is the richest man in the world, then you should grant your own colleagues something as well. And I guess the board gets lots of money and the top management gets lots of money. But I was told, I'm not sure if it's still the case, but it was definitely a few years ago, in Germany, if you wanted to work at Amazon in the warehouses, so the lowest pay jobs, you had to do a tryout, which wasn't paid for weeks, and then you might be accepted, or maybe you weren't accepted and now you didn't get any pay at all. And this is called slavery, I feel. [laughter] Lieven: So, I've got a problem with it. But I'm not sure if it's still the case, and I'm not going to look into it, but... Joel: You can still quit your job and work somewhere else in Europe, right? Lieven: Of course. But the problem is with the people working in those warehouses, they don't have that many options. Those are mostly refugees, people fleeing from some situation which was even worse. They arrive in Germany and the only job they are easily accepted for a free tryout is at Amazon. Chad: It sounds like internships here in the US. To Joel's point is, 35... The fine was nothing. But you've gotta remember, after Google was fined $2.4 billion in 2017, they started thinking twice. I think France is not a country you wanna fuck with. There are many European countries you do not wanna fuck with when it comes to fining. And I think what's gonna happen is, this is gonna be a slap on the wrist, it continues to happen, they're gonna go after a percentage of sales, and when that happens, then that will actually change the whole behavior of how Amazon starts treating this particular topic. They're still gonna screw people over in a million different ways, but in this topic, they will change, but they're gonna have to be forced to change. And I don't think playing chicken with France who is known to be the nation of rebellion, for God's sakes, that's the smart way to go. Joel: Lieven, we're gonna let you get back to work, because you've got... [laughter] Joel: A congress to prepare for. Lieven: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, Rika. Yes, Rika. I'm coming. [laughter] Joel: Boys, another one is in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Lieven: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you, you made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there is no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big-booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful trainwreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

In case you missed it, the nursing profession is going through a pretty challenging time. Whether it's COVID burnout, a severe lack of skilled workers or the Baby Boomers putting immense pressure on the health care system - just to mention a few - times are tough. It's certainly an issue Chad & Cheese aren't qualified to solve, let alone fully understand. That's why Dr. Beth A. Brooks, president of The Brooks Group, joined the boys to discuss a wide variety of topics, such as the current state of nursing, how the gig economy is impacting the profession, the power of pay transparency and if / when the robots will finally be the ones giving colonoscopies. It's a must listen for nurse recruiting professionals, healthcare networks around the country and, frankly, nurses themselves. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. It's your proctologists' favorite podcast, AKA, [laughter] The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheesman, joined as always, the Woody to my Buzz, Mr. Chad Sowash is in the house. And we are just giddy to welcome Dr. Beth A. Brooks, president of the Brooks Group. Beth, welcome to the podcast. Beth Brooks: Hi, and thank you for having me on this nice cold December day. Joel: You can't see her face on the podcast, but she was totally shocked and awed by that intro, so we'll try to bring it down a little bit for you. [laughter] Now, my intro was pretty sparse. I know you have a long resume and a lot of things that you do. So spend a few seconds on your Twitter bio to let our listeners know who you are. Beth Brooks: So I've been a nurse executive, nurse leader for, gosh, 30 years I've been a nurse, and the last probably 20 years of my career have really focused on nurse recruitment, retention, healthy work environment. I've designed a questionnaire to measure the quality of nursing work life that's been used in 50 countries, and it's been translated into 10 languages. So I kind of have a lot of expertise and knowledge around healthy work environment, work life, recruitment and retention of nurses. And it's just been my sweet spot and my passion. And we've gone through some crazy times these last couple of years with nurse recruitment and retention. Joel: Loco. Chad: Yes. Well, let's talk about the state of nursing today. We're coming on the backside of a pandemic. COVID is still out there, obviously. But we're on the backside of a pandemic that was a very large load for nurses and healthcare to actually carry. So where are we at now? Do we still have a higher attrition rate? Higher turnover? What's going on? Joel: Everything's back to normal, right? Beth Brooks: Wah... Chad: And what should we expect? What should we expect? Beth Brooks: I think we should expect not knowing what's coming next. There's a lot of talk amongst my colleagues, and a lot being written about COVID will reshape the nursing workforce in a way that we've not seen in the past. We'll have a whole segment of the workforce that will prefer this gig economy type work, which is very new for someone like me who was a baby boomer nurse who eight hours a day, five days a week, staff nurse. So I think we'll have this gig economy component. We are definitely going to have, I believe and I think some colleagues would agree, a movement away from the 12-hour shifts back to an eight-hour work shift. And that's for a couple of reasons, but primarily from fatigue and burnout. We've really learned through COVID that the 12-hour shift, and there's enough data now that we know about the impact on nurse and patient outcomes, that I see a shift in the hours that nurses work. We've got the gig economy. Beth Brooks: And then I think a whole group of nurses who have come to realize, unlike before, what their value is to the organization, and they wanna be respected, they want to be compensated fairly, and they want to be listened to. And that's sort of the message in every study that's coming out that has been. Those have been the themes. So I think it's gonna be a more demanding workforce and wanting a better work environment that we've had in the past. Chad: So are we gonna move away from the traditional? Or do you see us slowly moving away from the traditional, not just 12 hours, but also we're seeing a lot of apps that are out there that help healthcare systems really focus on being able to manage their people better. Although those people also have the opportunity as you talk about the gig economy, not just to work in their healthcare system, but also to be able to go outside of that healthcare system. And it's almost like an Uber where it's, you're calling inert, you see what shifts are open, and you go down to, let's say for instance here in Columbus, Indiana, we go to Seymour or we go to Greenwood if there's something open and they're paying a little bit more. Do you see that happening where it's a more of a traveling kind of workforce? Beth Brooks: I do. And I think there's a... But not for everybody, right? I think like anything, it's a big workforce and there are segments of the workforce that enjoy that kind of flexibility, autonomy, and freedom. What's interesting about what you said though, Chad, is there have been a couple of large organizations that have made employees sign almost like a pledge, "We're your first, and so you are employed by us, and your loyalty, if you will, is to us. And so we expect you to give your hours to us." And I'm kind of generalizing how I'm saying this. Chad: Yeah. Beth Brooks: I call it a loyalty pledge; I'm sure that's not what they call it... Chad: Yeah. Beth Brooks: But there have been organizations that are trying to... More stickiness, keeping those employees in their workforce, knowing that, yes, many nurses have another job and they're picking up a shift. And maybe that's okay. But then if that's the fifth shift of 12, then you start to ask yourself about fatigue and errors and other things. And that's something that we've never gotten our arms around. Joel: Are they paying a premium for that? Is that kind of maybe a good thing for nursing, like the best of the best get sort of brought into the fold and we're paying you more money, and we'll make it worth your while to give us sort of first ride of refusal or to be your number one opportunity? Is that a good thing maybe? Beth Brooks: I think it's a good thing when hospitals do and put in systems that allow that to work for the nurse, right? If you are going to give us your blood, sweat, and tears, we're going to offer self-scheduling so that you can have control over the schedule. We're going to try to place you on a shift that you wanna be primarily on. So I think it's that give and take about, if you're going to be loyal to our organization, we're going to sort of meet you halfway on how we offer benefits, compensation, maybe it's more continuing education dollars. So it's those kinds of other benefits besides salary that also make a difference. Joel: Do you have a sense of what percentage breakdown right now nursing is sort of contract gig work, and what percentage is the traditional hourly one employer? Beth Brooks: That, Joel, is a really good question, and I can answer it maybe in a slightly different way because I don't know that that's actually tracked. Part of the challenge we have in the country, across the country is there is no one way to identify a nurse. You have a license number, but that could be different in every state. You have some nurses have a DEA number where they can prescribe medication. Some nurses have what's called an identifier that you receive after you take the licensing exam. So it's really hard to know who the workforce is and where they're going, because we just don't have a great standard method to measure. But what we do know is how many nurses are in the Bureau of Labor Statistics category about travel nursing. So the travel nursing segment of nurses doubled during COVID. Now when I say "doubled," that sounds like, "Ah, it's a lot," but when it was 2%, it went to 4%. So that piece, we have better clarity around how many nurses are actually traveling than say I'm a full-time staff nurse versus I'm a full-time per diem nurse. Chad: Can you explain that travel nurse to everybody who might not understand what a travel nurse is versus your full-time on staff? Beth Brooks: There has always been, for as long as I've been a nurse, there's always been an opportunity to be a travel nurse. And so by that, you don't have a home institution. You work for a company that contracts with a hospital. You choose to work at that hospital on a 13-week contract. When that 13-week contract is over, sometimes the hospital will want you to renew; or sometimes the need, perhaps you were covering an LOA or an FMLA or something, and so that need is gone, so they don't renew your contract. But there are nurses who live their life as a travel nurse, and they might spend the winters in Florida working on 13-week contracts, [laughter] right? Or they spend their winters in Colorado skiing, and then they might go to California. So there's this cadre of nurses who literally move around the country going to where they're needed in 13-week increments. And they took a... Chad: Is the pay better? Beth Brooks: The pay is always better. But it's that old apples and oranges, right? You wanna compare your hourly rate to total comp. And then that's where those travel nurses have to think about housing, and they have to think about health insurance. And so that's... Maybe that hourly rate is not as much more than the full-time staff person. Chad: Gotcha. Joel: Talk about the state of recruiting for nurses. Because in this environment where it's sort of a marketplace, maybe nurses are getting reviewed by where they've worked, and you're sort of calling them on when times are, you know, need is higher than others. It's not the traditional post a job, hope to get some resumes, go hit up the schools, and try to get people in your facilities early. How is this changing the dynamics of recruiting? Beth Brooks: So I will start... Answer your question by revealing my bias. Way back in the day, nurse recruiters, talent acquisition was done by a nurse, when RNs were in HR doing recruitment. My perception, I don't have any data, better understanding of the role, better understanding of where a candidate would fit on a department or in a specific unit, and better able to do all the pre-screening down in the HR department before that candidate got to the office. So that model has changed. Healthcare has gone to what I call this retail recruitment model. You see all kinds of other folks coming in to HR in healthcare to be talent acquisition professionals, and they have no experience in healthcare. And that's not to say they can't learn, but it's a two-year learning curve. And so that process has gotten slow. Time to fill has significantly slowed. And quite frankly, we haven't modernized our workflow in HR. And so nurses, you have to be pretty quick and nimble because those candidates have many offers. They have many options. And if you're not quick with your process and bringing someone through, you're gonna lose the top candidates, and that's what we're seeing definitely. Chad: Can you tell us the impact that... Because the US used to have vocational high school programs, which were great feeders to our community healthcare systems, right? Can you tell us the impact that had? Was it a great impact? Did it really not impact that much because kids still had to go to college to be able to get their nursing degrees or their certificates or what have you? Can you tell us what kind of impact that had? Beth Brooks: It had an impact. It always has had an impact only at certain times in our labor economy. Nursing has forever gone through cyclical shortages. And so whenever we go through a cyclical shortage, there's this all-hands-on deck, let's enhance our community pipeline, let's work with the community colleges, let's have opportunities for someone who's in school to do some clinical work, and then they're a part-time employee, and then they move through their education program while they're working. So as soon as we have those downturns where there's a nursing shortage, there's all kinds of activity. And it has worked. It's worked incredibly well to even take, right now, take someone from EVS, environmental services, or someone from dietary services who wants to be a nurse, help them through school and bring them back. So yes, those programs work. Unfortunately, I don't wanna say that they're not sticky, but the urgency of the value of them changes based on where the shortage is happening for registered nurses, when we go through. Chad: Well, there's a lag time, right? I mean, because you can't just turn the spigot on and here comes nurses; you've got a lag time. Beth Brooks: Right, right. Exactly right. And there's all kinds of reason for the lag time. But yes, you're exactly right. Joel: And what's the shortage like now? My perception as an outsider is you have aging baby boomers, you have burnout from the pandemic. I have to imagine shortages are at a all time high maybe, right now? Beth Brooks: I think, yes. And what's interesting about what happened during this last COVID, so enrollment went down, graduations did not keep up where we thought it would. And as that enrollment went down a little bit, then 100,000 nurses left the job market during COVID. And everyone assumed those 100,000 RNs were baby boomers nearing retirement. Well, that wasn't the case. It was young moms and dads trying to balance homeschool [laughter] with their jobs with no daycare available. And so we lost that 100,000. So right now, the latest predictions I've seen is, 500,000 nurses by 2026, at least 500,000 nurses in the next five, six years. We need to find new in addition to the retirements. Joel: So talk to me about solutions for that gap. Chad was in the military, and we read stories about immigrants coming over. And if they are a fighting age and ability, they go to the military if they want to come to the country. Should we be thinking about immigration differently, bringing people in that want to be healthcare providers, get them in the school system, get them into the country? And also the other side of that, we talk about automation a ton. And I know that there are robotics in hospitals and in healthcare systems, but what's your take on immigrants and robots, for lack of a better term, taking some of these openings, which are gonna be a plenty? Beth Brooks: Yes. Well, I will say, and now you're... There has always been, always, always a very active pipeline of nurses coming to America from other parts of the world, right? That is always been the case. The problem with that has been that the countries where those nurses are coming from, they decimate their own health systems. And so we create another problem in other parts of the world. The nursing immigration, again, like anything, picks up when the shortage in America becomes significant and critical, then we ramp up our foreign recruitment of nurses. I've not really heard a lot about bringing young people in as an immigrant to become a nurse. That's not something I'm as familiar with. Although I have heard about, like someone who was a physician in Poland or a physician in Russia who comes to America and then can move through the nursing curriculum quickly. But I'm not familiar with just young people coming in from an immigration perspective. Beth Brooks: And it's unfortunate because we don't have enough bilingual healthcare providers, which impacts healthcare outcomes, which impacts health disparities. So if our nursing workforce, which is something we talk about, looked like the patients we serve, we would be in a much better place from a healthy nation perspective. But we don't have enough of those bilingual healthcare workers. And that would be a wonderful way to look at that. Joel: And the robots? Beth Brooks: Robots. Joel: They can speak all the languages if you want them to. Beth Brooks: Yeah. Well, they already have those, the translation little pods that they wheel around in hospitals or on carts. I don't know that I see robots certainly not as care providers per se, but... And I don't know if you wanna call... Have you heard about the electronic eICUs? I don't... Joel: No, I have not. Beth Brooks: So there's technology where a nurse, usually it's a critical care certified nurse, is sitting in a, let's call it a pod, with three or four other critical care nurses. And they are monitoring an entire ICU three towns over. It's called an eICU. So you have technology supporting remote monitoring, if you will, of hospitalized patients while there's someone in this headquarter pod. And for some reason it's totally slipping my mind what the name of the room they call it. But we do see that as a way to not replace, but... Joel: Augment. Beth Brooks: Enhance. If you don't have enough of the right staff on the unit, you do have your eICU staff that can come into a patient's room. And the technology is such that that camera in the patient's room can zoom right onto like an IV pump or an IV drip, and see what's working and then communicate with the patient. So that is helping. And we have a lot of young nurses coming into nursing right now who need a backup, someone more experienced, and they have that person, the remote ICU monitoring. But the robots, I think, you know what you see now is robots delivering supplies, delivering meals. You see robots in the pharmacy. Joel: So I won't be getting a colonoscopy from a robot anytime soon? Beth Brooks: I don't think so. [laughter] Joel: Unfortunately. Chad: Joel, that's like his major 2024 wish, Beth. He was really looking for a robot colonoscopy. [laughter] So it's funny because what you're talking about, we've actually seen in like hotels where you come in, there's nobody at the front desk, there's an iPad that's there, right? And you're checking in through the front desk. Now, this is how we fix a scale issue because humans don't scale well, right? We need that nurse in that room. But do we need that nurse in the room for all of the duties that the nurse has? Well, in this case, no. There's a command center and they check everything out. So it's very interesting. We're talking about hotels and then being able to scale this way. Let me flip the script on you here for a minute. Now, I understand there's a myth that pay transparency in the healthcare system would create significant cultural changes. What exactly is meant by that cultural changes, just by allowing everybody to know that they're getting paid fairly? Beth Brooks: Just so happens that I've written a couple of... I write a career coaching column for a nursing leadership journal. And one of the articles I wrote was about pay transparency. And one of the benefits of being very forthright with what the hourly pay is, what's the pay scale, what grade, what's the range, those kinds of things, there's three things that the science has said to us. One, it engenders more trust between the employee and the organization. Two, there's this feeling of distributive justice. Everyone's being treated fairly because we know what the compensation or what the ranges are. And actually in one study, it impacted the turnover. The turnover went down. However, it has been challenging for hospitals to have that level of pay transparency. It's not something that... Chad: Why? Beth Brooks: They've ever done. You know what? I think it's the sacred cow, honestly, that probably should be slain. [laughter] Joel: We've always done it this way. Yeah. Beth Brooks: That's what it is, honestly. And I honestly, and I don't think until me too, it really became an issue. And that there was a study that came out from UCSF like 2015. There was a $5000 difference in compensation between men and women nurses, which got everybody. Chad: Oh, yeah. Beth Brooks: So that has begun to change. But then there's, you know, you're not supposed to talk about salary, it's illegal to talk about salary. There's all these perceptions, like the employers say you can't talk about that with your peer. And that's not true. Chad: Right. Beth Brooks: So where we do have really good pay transparency is in our hospitals that have collective bargaining units. Joel: The unions. Chad: Unions, baby. Unions. [laughter] So, what it sounds like is literally we're trying to expand profits. Because the United States, as you know to the GDP, we spend more money than any other country that's out there, although nurses aren't seeing it. So where's that going? And to be able to grow that trust, which we've lost over the last decades, and we need, especially from our healthcare professionals, what do we have to change to make this actually work for our healthcare systems? Because again, Joel said it, boomers are out there, we're gonna have a bulging healthcare system, and we're not gonna have the staff to take care of it. So is that a piece of it? Is it pay transparency? Is it more pay? What do we have to do? What's the short term fix? Beth Brooks: Well, nurses would tell you they want more pay. An hospital CFO will tell you there's no more money. [laughter] So there we go. Right? Now, I don't wanna bore your listeners or either of you with why nursing is on the wrong side of the ledger and on a P&L, but there is a problem with the way nursing care is invisible and is embedded into the room charge, which makes it look like nursing is a cost and not a revenue generator. So until we are shown as generating revenue, which we do, which is a whole another conversation, I could go down that little rabbit hole, but until we show revenue in the hospital, because all the tasks we do that are coded in the computer or physicians get to bill for not the nurses. Chad: Almighty dollar, Cheesman, it's the almighty dollar. Joel: They follow the money. Joel: There's no customers if there's no nurses. I mean, [laughter] there's no customers without nurses, so. Chad: I was gonna say, no, they're going to be customers. They're just not gonna get care. Joel: Yeah. Chad: That's the big... That's the big key there. The customers are not going away... Joel: Yeah. Chad: It's just whether they get care. Beth Brooks: Yeah. So it's the money. I do think that... You said, how do we build trust back into the system? A couple of things. One, better, healthier work environments. We know that burnout is not my problem. A burnout comes from a toxic work environment. So we've got to fix our work environment. We've got to have better listening by the senior team because nurses don't feel listened to. And I think that piece of autonomy and control over your practice, that there's... You would never... One of my colleagues gives this example. If you were a CFO and you walked in and they said to you, "Oh, Joel, today you're gonna have to go work on 5 North rather than your nice office down in the... " That would never happen to a CFO. But if you're a nurse, you can show up at work and they'll say, "Oh, you're not working here today. You're going over to 3 South. See you later. Have fun." And so you have no... You feel like you're this just widget in a system. And hospitals that have worked on their work environments have leaders that listen and have nurses that have a voice in how care is provided. Those are the environments that still may have difficulty recruiting, but they have less difficulty. Joel: And what you're outlining is the recipe for a gig economy uprising. Because if that's the environment that nurses have, I would totally wanna be a freelancer or a contract worker. Because I can tell you how much you're gonna pay me, I can just decide where I'm gonna work. And I also think, I would imagine that from a pay transparency perspective, the gig economy, assuming that you publicize what you want per hour or what you're gonna pay a nurse per hour, then that sort of levels the playing field. Because I can go and say, "Look, the nurses that do exactly the same thing that I do are on the site, they're getting more than me. So I should be getting at least that." Is that happening or should it happen? Beth Brooks: It is. So whether it should or not, it is happening. That's exactly what's going on. Chad: Good. Beth Brooks: And I think it's fine. I think nurses have always been a little bit shy about talking about money, and we're all in it to take care of patients and do the right thing. And absolutely, that's true. But there's something about the work, the caring work of women that has never really been compensated appropriately. But there are nurses who bid on shifts all the time. There's shift bidding apps. We've got a shift over here at hospital A for $50 an hour, and hospital B is gonna pay 60. And you as the nurse can bid on which shift you want... Joel: Love it. Beth Brooks: And then go and do that. And really any nurse can do that as long as you have somewhere to hang your hat where you have benefits. Right? It's hard to not have health insurance. And it's hard to [chuckle] hang through your... Joel: That's a whole other podcast that we can... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Oh yeah. But I mean, we just talked about the country who spends the most in GDP on healthcare, and not all of our people are covered. Whew! That is another... Joel: It's sanity. Chad: A whole another podcast. But Dr. Beth A. Brooks, Beth, we appreciate you coming on the show. And if somebody wanted to reach out to you 'cause they want to dig a little bit deeper into this conversation, where would you send them to connect with you? Beth Brooks: I would send to LinkedIn and just find my LinkedIn profile. Easy. It's right there. Joel: Easy peasy, nacho cheesy. [laughter] Another one in the can, Chad, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Well, thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, with Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

We say a lot of things on the podcast that people disagree with. Most people stop short of writing a blog post about how wrong they think one, or both, of us are. However, Jeff Dickey-Chasins, affectionately known as Job Board Doctor, decided to put the virtual pen-to-paper and express how wrong Joel was in his analysis of how job boards are facing a Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in the form of Google / LinkedIn, AI, automation and the gig economy. Just when you think the debate will get too nasty to take, Chad swoops in as peacemaker ... or is it instigator? A must listen for every job board employee and customer alike. The Doctor is IN. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash And Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. It's your therapist's favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Jeff Taylor to my Richard Johnson, Chad Sowash is in the house. And today we welcome a longtime fan of the show. [applause] Joel: Jeff Dickey-Chasins. Chad: There he is. Joel: Owner of Job Board Doctor. Jeff, welcome to the podcast. Jeff: Howdy, boys and girls. I'm sorry. Howdy boys. Joel: Oh, we have girls listening, it's okay. Jeff: Oh, okay. [laughter] Joel: Boys and girls. Yep. Jeff: Thank you for inviting me on. Joel: Sure. Now, you are an icon in the industry, but some people don't know who you are. So for those listeners that don't have a clue, give us the Twitter bio, the elevator pitch on Jeff. Jeff: As an icon, I can say that I started out in the industry back in 1997 with Dice, a little tech job board, and was fortunate enough to sort of see it go public and then exit before everything blew up. I've worked with some other job boards along the way, but in 2009 actually started Job Board Doctor. I'm a business consultant that works with job boards, and no one that I saw out there was really doing that at that point. And I thought, what the hell? And to be quite honest, I've been busy ever since. I've worked with probably 750 job boards around the world. Chad: Wow. Jeff: And pretty much any niche and any location that you can imagine, I think it's really fun. I'm a self-described job board geek and quite proud of it. Joel: Does that work well at the bar when you're picking up chicks? [laughter] Jeff: Yeah. Chad: Not so much. Not so much. How about Wizard behind the job board curtain? Joel: He's the wiz. Nobody beats him. [laughter] Chad: Okay. Okay, listen. Okay. Let's get to business here. So let me set up today's discussion, banter, disagreement, whatever this turns out to be. So in an episode in early November last year entitled, Google Reveals, Indeed Falls, & Labor Wins, Joel waxed poetic on what he called the four horsemen of the job board apocalypse, which mean he believes that these are the four signs that job boards are seeing impending doom. Now then on November 21st, the job Board Doctor, you Jeff, penned an article and entitled, "the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? Sorry. No." which refutes Joel's line of thinking. So now, here at the Chad and Cheese podcast, we love snark, banter and different lines of thinking, which is why today we are going to dig into the horsemen one by one. And here are two diversion paths of thoughts. So are you both ready? Joel: I'm ready. Jeff: You betcha. Chad: Here we go. Play horseman number one. Joel: Number one is Google and LinkedIn. Google for Jobs, no matter what narrative Indeed or anyone else says, is putting a herding on the job board industry. It is a commodity that Google has sort of figured out. And we'll talk about that in our next story. But Google is a juggernaut that job boards haven't quite figured out how to leverage in any scale. And LinkedIn, let's be honest, is the place where you find people, it's where you source people. They've done a great job like it or not of... Chad: It's like crap. Joel: Pushing out the competition. Putting a walled garden around their data. And they've done a really good job of doing that. And now they have open AI thanks to Microsoft's deep pockets to now take that to another level. So the first horseman is LinkedIn and Google. Chad: There we go. That's the first horseman. Jeff, what were your thoughts around that. Joel: Hold on folks. He's chomping at the bit. [laughter] Chad: He just can't wait. Joel: Lay the smack down. Okay, Jeff, what you got? Jeff: I was frankly disappointed in Joel to trot those two out. First of all, LinkedIn has been around since 2004. Every job board that's out there has competed against LinkedIn since 2004. And coexisted and grown and done very, very well. And the ones that couldn't are no longer in the market. What's the big deal? Okay. I have a lot of admiration for LinkedIn. I actually think it is probably in my mind, the number one job board in terms of technical capabilities of what they do, far outstrips what Indeed does. But are they gonna kill the job board industry? Hey, they've had 20 years to do it so far. They haven't pulled it off. It's not gonna happen. And with Google, Google For Jobs, it's just keeps cracking me up. Jeff: Long before the pandemic, I was going to conferences where Google was trotting out saying, we're gonna do this and we're gonna do that. And then they would yank stuff back. They'd put hire out there, all these companies that sign up for it, they'd yank it back, they'd put this out, they'd take it back. And right now, people are saying, oh my God, oh my god. So if it rolls out, big effing deal, right? [laughter] Jeff: Because all it is, is a promotional device that anyone can use. And I can be absolutely positive that every job board will be pumping money into it if they want to. Every employer, if they want to, will do it. And sort of the end result of all that is just sort of a resettling with Google putting more money in their pocket. But that's a big if. Is it ever actually gonna come to market? I am pretty skeptical. I may be wrong, I am rarely wrong, but perhaps this time I'll be wrong. [laughter] Joel: So on on LinkedIn, yeah, they've been around since 2004, but they didn't have a billion people on the platform in 2004. They don't have the competition now that they had when people were scraping their content when they were regurgitating and using algorithms. They've sort of law suited their way out of that problem, they're now, kicking off all the fake profiles, which to me is kind of the second phase of cleaning up the data. To me, LinkedIn is not a job board, and I don't think most people think of it as like, I'm gonna post my job on LinkedIn. What I think LinkedIn is for is when a recruiter gets, Rec saying, hire a salesperson, whereas 20 years ago, the first inclination would be, okay, I gotta post a job on Monster and Career Builder, and where else do I need to post this job? Joel: To me, the the inclination today is either I gotta go to LinkedIn and find a salesperson and reach out to them directly, or if they're smart, I'm gonna go into my current ATS and find someone that I can hire that I've already marketed to and gotten into my system. So to me, there's an evolution of less posting and then getting a response and just kicking out the middleman and going right to the people. And I think LinkedIn has done a better job than anyone. I don't think we would argue on that, of building a directory of professionals, world, globally, that no one can really touch. Certainly no job boards database, resume database. And I'm sure some Indeed people would argue with that, but I don't think they could touch it. So for me, instead of posting jobs, you're losing job postings because I don't have to post a job. Joel: I can go right to the people that are in this directory. In terms of Google. I look at Google as... So first of all, I don't think Google is gonna get out of the job posting business. They're just launching in Germany. They seem pretty serious about this. This doesn't seem like a Google based thing to me. This doesn't seem like a hire where, oh, too much regulation. We don't wanna deal with lawsuits and whatever. Like, we're getting the hell out of it. So I don't think the business is going anywhere because they're growing it. And to me, we've seen this movie before Indeed comes along, it's free traffic, isn't this wonderful? We don't pay anything. People pay us. We get all this free traffic. It's amazing. And then what happened? They turned the spigot and they started charging for it. Joel: Okay, damn. Okay, well we gotta pay this tax, but it's still less than what our clients are paying us for, flat fee posting, monthly postings or whatever. Well, that price started, the screws starting to tighten the algorithm started pushing out job boards and highlighting more direct employers, money that would've gone to Monster now starts going to Indeed. So my perspective is the same thing is happening. And the fact that Indeed is sort of acquiesced and they're now on Google for Jobs, tells me that Google for Jobs is making an impact on their business. [laughter] Joel: As well as other things that I talked about. So for me, it's simply, employers have X amount of dollars. Where do they go? Once they realize and agencies realize we can go right to Google and pay them instead of paying Indeed to then pay Google. Let's take out the middleman, which is Indeed and every other job board, and we'll give money directly to Google. I'm not saying that they're gonna stop paying money to job boards totally, but it's gonna take a piece out of the pie. We don't know how big of a piece that's going to be. And we don't even know, honestly, if Google's going to do a pay-per-click solution, Chad and I think are both on the side of yes, they will eventually start making money off of this service. Joel: You may disagree, but to me it's like, we've seen this move before. Yes, everyone thinks it's great. All the free traffic is amazing. I love it. I'm SEOing this stuff, it's great. But at some point, when you are renting land, eventually the land holder wants to get paid and Google is going to get paid at some point. So those would be my two points on LinkedIn and Google and why they're sort of taking chunks out of the job board business. The ultimate comment on this is job boards just aren't growing. Chad: So, Google I think is definitely refocused, you talking about all the other products before Jeff. And I think that they're doing what they do, which is search, right? And again, back to what Joel was saying, isn't this how Indeed took out the Monster and CareerBuilder titans of old, right? This is exactly what they did. And I've said on the podcast time and time again, I believe that we need to focus more on strategy as opposed to the short-term cash grabs. And that's exactly what we're seeing from job boards today. They're not thinking about long-term strategy. They're not thinking about tech, and being able to, how am I going to be around five years from now? That's not their focus. It's what's coming in this month? Now on the LinkedIn side of the conversation [chuckle] I believe LinkedIn is drowning in tech debt. Intro: They don't, have great tech. They've got great data, they've got a shit ton of great data. Nobody has more data on me than LinkedIn, right? But unless Microsoft implodes the platform and rebuilds it, they're not a real threat to job boards. I don't believe. Putting open AI on LinkedIn would be like strapping a jet engine on a Cessna. It's just not gonna work. So I think these two things don't belong together. Google for Jobs and LinkedIn unless, LinkedIn ups their game. That being said, let's go ahead and jump into horseman number two. Joel: The second horseman is automation. Look, you and I just talked recently about the robots at AWS moving boxes working in the warehouse. Why would you buy stocks that are job postings to hire people when you see images about Amazon replacing everybody with robots that carry boxes, not to mention driverless cars that are eventually going to come. Look, wall Street is a forward-looking indicator and forward-looking. It looks like we're gonna need less people. So why would I invest in these companies? [laughter] Chad: Your thoughts? Jeff: I thought Joel was wrong on the first one. I thought he was dead wrong on that one. That reaction, you could go back hundreds of years over and over again in response to technological innovation. And there will be a Joel standing there saying, when we get this thing and we will not need people in the market anymore. And... Chad: So you're calling Joel a Luddite? You're calling Joel a Luddite? [laughter] Jeff: Joel would be... Yeah, well, I'm not gonna get into what Joel really is, but I think that the... [laughter] Joel: Geez. Jeff: Sort of looking at this... Well, Joel, it's your show I had to come on mean. No, seriously, I think it's crazy to look at any market and say, oh, we're not going to need humans. I think what we're gonna say is that we're gonna need humans in different places. And so let's say that our robotic future is a successful robotic future. The humans will be migrating from putting boxes on shelves to maintaining the robots, to programming the robots, to moving into other positions that don't fit well with robotics or fit well with non-human comprehension. And we are in one of those phases right now, actually, we're always in one of those phases. It had been for the last a hundred years because of the rate of change of technology where there's always a percentage of the labor force that's been thrown out. Jeff: And they're trying to figure out how to get back in and getting re-skilled, but no labor force, no, not going to happen. No people, it's not gonna happen. It's just going to show up somewhere else. And maybe that was the point you were trying to make that hey, put the money somewhere else. But you know what job boards, their job is to connect the employers and the candidates, and they don't care who the employers are. They simply want to make sure that the employers and the candidates find each other. So that equation doesn't change. Joel: Okay. Wall Street typically wants to bet on where the puck is going and with some degree of certainty, what we do know is that we're gonna lose jobs to automation. MIT reported a 400,000 job loss in the US alone and you can go Google, whatever studies you want. But there's more of a certainty that automation will take jobs. The uncertainty is will we create more jobs in response to a new technology? Historically, we have. Historically, when a car is made, there are more jobs created. Jobs change and jobs are lost, but they're gained elsewhere. It's uncertain how much automation will create new jobs. You don't know that. I don't know that Chad doesn't know that. The greater certainty is that more automated tools, robots, whatever you wanna call them, will take more jobs. The local McDonald's in my neighborhood used to have four people behind the cash register taking orders. Joel: Now there are four kiosks and the food comes out with your number on the thing. And we talk every week almost about new technology with ordering food and making cars. And obviously the Amazon example of robots moving boxes. So if I'm an investor, do I wanna invest in something that I think there'll be more jobs posted, there'll be more activity around putting jobs up. Right now, I'd say if I'm an investor, I'm betting on there's less jobs than there are in the future. So my better bet investing wise would be fewer jobs, which is why I would not put my money into a job board, because job boards grow when the economy grows and we hire more people. So that's where I think automation and, when we talk about minimum wage raising, when we talk about California, New York, that's all great things. And we talked to Kevin Wheeler recently who talked about, look, they're on a five-year parole because they have about five years to make more money than they've ever made. Until all the companies streamline processes, put automation into these jobs, and they're all outta work. His word's not mine. But the risk is there. So I'm not putting my money into something like a job board where they grow when there's more jobs to be filled, because I think more robots are gonna be filling those positions. Chad: Yeah. I think what Jeff is talking about is a migration of jobs. So let's say for instance, Amazon warehouse jobs, which you talked about, yes. They're gonna go away and thank fucking God. Those are horrible jobs. Nobody wants to be forced to work on a line pissing in goddamn garbage cans. So just because those jobs will fade away does not mean the totality of the workforce equation will be less. Amazon warehouse jobs, good riddance, the migration, which again, job boards will be popping up all over the place for these new jobs. If you take a look at like, anything that is Cyber, when Cyber was big, they just, job boards popped up all over the place. You're going to see a moving migration of need in new job boards that are placed, or new products that are actually created, which we've seen with LinkedIn and Indeed and all the big job boards with regard to Gig and whatnot. Indeed, just talking about their "new tech network" right? So there's a migration and there's a re-centering, let's say, of where the need is. So this is more, I think, migration than it is, people not doing the job. Joel: And if you could tell me these are the jobs that people are gonna fill that they're losing, then I would buy it. But I don't think we know what those jobs are and... Chad: That's not the point. That's not the point. Joel: I don't think you can just take a warehouse's worker and make them into a cybersecurity expert's point. Chad: That's not the point. Joel: Not everyone can do that. And we don't know to what degree it will fill. Is it a 100% to 100%? Is it 50% of the jobs that are lost will be filled? We just don't know. So again, if I'm an investor, I want to go where I know there's more certainty, there's more certainty around less jobs, more robots than there are more jobs, more robots. Chad: Yes. But the point is that there will always be job boards to be able to fill the need of whatever that workforce is. So therefore, it's migration. Jeff: Part of what I do, I'm at like the front line of the change because the people that are creating the new job boards that are reacting to the changes in the market, come to me and talk to me. And so I just got finished working with a job board that focuses on EV technicians. All the people that deal with EVs and they're at the cutting edge of these things. And that's been happening over and over and over again for the last 14 years. And I can tell you that it keeps moving and sometimes it moves forward and falls back. I mean, look at Dollar General, yank and Walmart yanking all those self-check lines because the loss was so bad. And the humans do a better job of checking people out than the damn machines do. So forward progress through automation is not a straight line. It goes forward, it goes backwards, and sometimes it hits a dead end. And you're right, it's very, very hard to predict. But I can guarantee you that every time there's significant change that gets embedded in the economy, there's gonna be more jobs that surround whatever that change is and will be filling other holes in the economy. Chad: Go one step forward, two steps back, and that leads us to play horseman number three. Joel: The third horseman of the apocalypse is AI. Again, if I'm looking at Elon Musk doing an interview with the Prime Minister of Britain saying that we won't even have jobs in the future. Chad: Universal high income. Joel: So why would I invest in companies if there's no growth prospects for people or even having jobs in the future, and... Chad: Jeff, is AI going to take some of those jobs? Jeff: It's inevitable that AI will take some jobs out there, but I mean, the real issue is what does it do to the job board industry? And one of the things that I've said many times, I think you guys know this is my point of view, is that job boards are sort of the great amoeba of the recruitment industry. Things happen. The job boards approach the thing that happens, they swallow it and they use it, and it's happened over and over and over again. They did it with social media. They've done it with various types of techniques like performance-based marketing, and they're already doing it with AI sort of integrating it into sort of the base functionality of what they're doing, which is bringing candidates and employers together. And is it gonna eliminate job boards? Maybe in some areas, in some places. I mean, certainly some people are placing bets on that. But in terms of really sort of wiping out a $20 billion a year business? No, it's not gonna happen. I actually think it's gonna spur growth. And based on what I've seen so far, I'm pretty positive that we will see a lot of positive changes in job board technology over the next five years or so because of AI. Joel: Swallow is not spits just to be clear, the job boards are swallowing the AI not spitting it out. So AI to me is sort of the flip side of automation. Automation I think is gonna kick the working class in the you know what. And I think AI is going to be a wake up call to the knowledge workers. And we've seen really early iterations around creative writing jobs on gig economy platforms where they're getting paid much less than they were before and there are a lot fewer of them. So a lot of the white collar knowledge based jobs that we know and love many of us will be replaced by a lot of things that AI is doing. And if you need fewer creative writers there'll be fewer jobs posted for creative writing jobs because AI can do it and I think particularly when you see solutions AI salespeople, AI customer service people. And you know Chad and I talked about a company in India that fired 90% of their people and replaced them with AI. Joel: That's going to happen. If you're a startup and you can buy a solution that will cold call sound like a human being and call through a bunch of numbers. Why would you hire a salesperson to cold call people to generate leads? And companies like Apple and Tesla are already doing this, where they retarget you. If you go to their site and fill out a form, you get a call from, it kind of sounds like a person that's only gonna get better telling you about Tesla or Apple products. And that is gonna replace sales jobs and customer service jobs. And if those jobs are replaced, you need fewer job posting platforms and things to post your job on, which means less revenue for these job sites in the future. I agree with you that they'll plug in AI, they'll be better around, hey, do a job description in seconds that's already being done by the likes of Indeed and Paradox. Joel: Write a rejection letter automatically, like do these sort of belts and suspenders, things blocking and tackling, if you will, of recruiting. Those jobs will be augmented and improved. And I think the technology around job sites will improve. I just think there are gonna be fewer people doing a lot of these jobs, which means there are fewer job postings, which is inevitably how that money is made. Now, if they wanna start making money on, hey we got this new thing that will write jobs for you, or will write... They can add money on new services to streamline the recruiting process, like that's an opportunity I think that they will do and should do. But I just think at the end of the day when people like Elon Musk say, there's not gonna be any jobs at all. You think I'm crazy? You think I'm crazy? No jobs at all. Okay. So when you hear that and you're an investor, why would you invest in a job board if there are gonna be no fricking jobs in the future? Says Elon Musk, who is smarter than me. Chad: So, yeah, well, let's talk about that soundbite. Anyone listening to Elon Musk who took a $44 billion company and thus far has lost 25 billion doesn't understand that Elon is good with engineering, rockets and EVs, not with people. And this is an people industry. So looking at Elon and thinking that he knows everything in the fucking universe, come the fuck on. Unlike the Amazon example, tech will take tasks, we've talked about this, not jobs. Jobs are going to be more co-piloted. And then we've also seen where some companies and Joel mentioned the one that's had 90% of their customer service, they also started putting people back into those jobs. Why? Because the AI was fucking up left and right. We've seen hallucinations, we've seen so much happening. Jeff, you just talked about getting rid of self check-in lines, right? There's going to be this step back and forward. Chad: But for example, the administrivia that recruiters currently have that they have to screw with day by day is going to be taken away with some of those co-pilots. Some of those process methodologies where they will be able to become brand ambassadors and usher in top talent instead of writing job descriptions and pushing electronic paper. Personally, I don't think that many of these jobs, especially short term, I mean, and I'm saying short term in the next 10 years, next decade, are going to be taken by this tech. They're going to be better because of this text. So at the end of the day, I think, I believe that these jobs, unlike Elon Musk, are still gonna be around. They're just gonna be much more fucking tolerable for God's sakes. And that's what I hope for the human race, let's say, that's my two cents. Joel: I love the optimism. Chad: Play horseman number four. Joel: The fourth horseman of the apocalypse is the gig economy. We didn't talk about those stocks. Upwork is over 20% year to date, in its share price. Uber is up almost a 100%, and DoorDash is up 80% year to date. If I'm an investor, I see people have options. I see people can do their own thing. People can gig it as a career. So those four horsemen of the apocalypse, Google and LinkedIn, AI automation and the gig economy spell trouble for ZipRecruiter, Indeed, Glassdoor and others. And I don't see any end to the pain that they are suffering. Chad: What kind of pain Jeff? What kind of pain are we gonna see? Joel: His face says, he kind of agrees with me, his face says he might be on board with this one. He might be into it. Jeff: Dream on. Dream on Joel. Dream on. Joel: Oh Okay. Jeff: No. Okay, so this argument once again has been trotted out since the very first cracking of the egg and the little gigs crawling out of the shell and starting the so-called gig economy. We all know that the gig economy has been around forever, right? There's always been people that have done work on a limited basis for payment. Joel: Never at this scale though. Jeff: Actually when you look at the percentages of people that are doing that kind of work, and you go back in history, it's not a lot different. I had a grandfather that was a union electrician, worked for a lineman. And then the second half of his life, he worked as a garage mechanic. He was a gig worker, right? There's always been a large percentage of the market that wasn't looked at Wall Street but was there. And now I'm not saying that there's not more opportunity now because of the internet remote work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm just saying that that's always been a large segment of the labor market. Now, to say that everyone can sort of get on a gig and wander off to Nirvana is ridiculous. Joel: And I don't think I said that. Jeff: You're implying that the gig economy has the potential to sort of disrupt the job board industry. The disruptions already happened. I mean, Upwork is a job board. Fiverr is a job board. They have taken their places, some of the job boards have actually made modifications to their platform. LinkedIn made a sort of a half-hearted attempt to get involved in this at one point. And Indeed did too. It's a type of work and it's a type of job board. It's doing very, very well right now for a lot of different reasons. But it's not the answer for everyone. Just like AI is not the answer for every industry that's out there. And I guess I look at this stuff holistically and I say, yeah, there's been a change in the market. Jeff: You look at it from a Wall Street perspective, they're always chasing the latest, shiny, bright thing that they think is gonna make them money. And their horizon is about four weeks. I used to work for a public company. I remember how it changed from, we were looking at three year horizons to suddenly we're looking at quarterly horizons. It totally screws with the way the company works. All I'll say about Elon is I'm hardly on Twitter anymore, and I used to be on Twitter all the time because it sucks. And he did that in the course of 12 months. I don't know how anyone can destroy an ecosystem as quickly as he did, but he did. And he'll never get it back. He's not in authority on that. Chad: We'll just agree to disagree on that Gigs in the way that they are today have been around forever. I mean, yes, they have, but we're talking about estimates that I see is 35% of Americans, or 59 million, some workers have gigged to some degree. And that was not the case before the internet. I mean, so I don't think it's... I just don't agree that there's always been gigs. And this has been the way it's been forever. I think it's a totally different animal than it was now. I was curious about, 'cause I knew you were gonna bring up Upwork as a job board. And I can't... Look, I say it's not, you say it is. So, I wanted to ask, Chad knows I loved a good LinkedIn poll. So I put out there on LinkedIn, I said is Upwork a job board? Joel: So 125 people replied, 62% said, no, it's not a job board. 38% said that it was. The flip side of that is that Fiverr is down 24% for the year. So you can look at Upwork, but you can also look at Fiverr one's obviously a much better run business than the other. But I just simply... My simple thesis is that if more people are gigging, they're not going to job boards to look for work. They're doing their own thing. They're going to a platform, they're going to Uber, DoorDash, Instacart, whatever. They're bypassing the whole process altogether. And if they're doing that, that means less jobs on job boards, which again, is how job boards grow and make money. And that's what their purpose is. So pull together, all of these four things take chunks out of the business. I don't think I ever said this is the end, or this one thing is going to replace job boards. Joel: Job boards will be around forever and they'll be good businesses for people. They're just not growth businesses. They're not spitting out dividends like a established company that has more cash than they know what to do with. They're just kind of there serving their purpose. And I think they're very challenged as we've talked about. But in terms of the gig economy, it's simply fewer people are going to job sites to look for jobs. They're going directly to whatever gig platform that they want, multiple gig platforms, and that's how they're searching for a job. Now, if your argument is Upwork is a job board, then my argument is a bit tougher. So I wanted to put some data on a survey that's non-scientific whatsoever. But there are people in the industry that do follow on LinkedIn and reply to this stuff. So the numbers I do have say that it's not a job board. It's separate from the traditional post and get responses and whatnot. Chad: Do you post a job on Upwork or Fiverr? Joel: You can post it, you can post a job, but the... Chad: You can post a job. Joel: Yes, you can. Chad: Okay. But yeah. But here's the question on monster, traditional monster back in the day and even today. Could you go and look for people in the resume database? Joel: Yep. Chad: Answer's yes. Could you post a job? Answer is yes, it's the same goddamn thing. Joel: So is monster a gig platform? Chad: If they were posting gigs, yes. Joel: We can agree to disagree. My numbers from LinkedIn support the fact that 60... Chad: Here's not bullshit numbers. Gallup gig economy research suggests that 29% of US workers have an alternative work arrangement as a primary job, 29%. That to me, is big. Now, whether you believe that gigs have always been that big or not, we weren't able to record that over history like we can today. 'cause there were so many people that were paid under the table for doing gigs, right? Today we have a couple of mechanisms. I do agree with Joel that we'll be able to scale gigs much faster, right? Much faster. The rise of the gig economy is necessary because the lower third of the US population is not making a living wage. Chad: So the gig economy only exists because people are doing everything they can to either get out of a dead end job or just making enough money to survive. I guess the question I'm asking you both because this affects the gig industry, but also the job board industry is will the US be forced to start focusing on people in living wages over profits? Because if they do, the gig economy will shrink. If people need to do less gigs because they're actually making a living wage, the gig economy will shrink substantially. So do you think that we will actually start focusing on pushing a living wage versus not because of that? And do you agree with me that gigs will shrink because of wages? Joel: I think your argument is that if I can make more money as an employee, I won't do gigs. I think that a lot of people do gigs for freedom to do whatever they want on their own time. So, I can't blanket say yes or no. I think it's a person to person situation. Some people love jobs. Chad: Do you think the amount of gigs in the market will shrink? Joel: The ultimate pain in America is health benefits. And until the gig economy fixes that, or we've as a country fix that. But I think it's a case by case basis on whether or not someone wants to gig or wants a full-time job with benefits and healthcare and all that good stuff. And certainly minimum wage increases, will pull more people out of the gig economy. They do want that. Chad: Okay. There's the answer. Okay, Jeff? Jeff: Well, I think you were asking the question, what will the country do? What would happen? And sadly, I think it'll do the bare minimum because there's a lot of corporate pushback at all levels. Companies like Uber and companies that are not Uber, that don't necessarily want to see universal healthcare, for example, because universal healthcare would really change the labor market. And if we had universal healthcare in the US even though there's plenty of job boards in countries that have that, the market is different because there's not the penalty that you pay as you move from job to job to job. And I think that that's probably not gonna happen anytime soon. But I do think that depending on what happens in November there could be progress made toward higher wages, and there could be certain segments of the market that get pumped up, that aren't getting pumped up at this point in time. Jeff: So I mean, I don't see a big change. I see gradual change. And Joel, this is just sort of a side thing that maybe you don't realize because you're not sitting where I sit, but a lot of my job board clients that are reasonably sized they are 20, 30, 40$ million are getting a lot of money from gig companies to post their jobs. A lot of those jobs roll through the job board economy. And that's been true from the very beginning. And why is that the case? Because those gig companies still need to acquire scarce labor. In your wonderful world, there's gonna be more people than jobs. Right now that's not the case. And given our birth rate and the way things are going, I don't think it's gonna be the case anytime between before any of us die. I think there's gonna be scarce labor for the jobs that are out there. Chad: Well, Jeff, thanks for coming on the show. We really appreciate it. Joel: The doctor is in the house. Chad: Great discussion. Great arguments, great disagreements, that's what this is all about. I really appreciate you bringing those on the show, Joel, thanks for being a good host all the way around. Thanks a lot guys. Really appreciate it. And until next time, we out. Joel: I need a beer. We out. [laughter] Jeff: Thanks. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.