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Workday A.I. vs EEOC

This week, Chad & Cheese discuss various topics including the EEOC targeting Workday, non-competes taking a hit, and the acquisition of Pivot CX by Daxtra. They also talk about their upcoming events in Scotland and Vegas, jumping off the Stratosphere, as well as the ban on TikTok. The conversation covers a range of themes including technology, acquisitions, events, and current news. They discuss recent developments at ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, and Workday. They also touch on the banning of non-compete agreements, the raising of the salary threshold for overtime eligibility, and the unionization of Volkswagen workers in Chattanooga. The conversation concludes with a discussion on a TikTok influencer partnering with Shake Shack and Chipotle's success with their new chicken offering ... take that, Chik-fil-A.


Joel Cheesman (00:26.068)


Joel Cheesman (00:30.995)

Yeah, just two guys who love to stop collaborate and listen. Hi kids, you are listening to the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Van Winkle Cheeseman.

Chad (00:42.35)

This is Chad. Who farted? So was.

Joel Cheesman (00:45.747)

And on this episode, the EEOC targets Workday, non-competes take a hit, and who's ready for Chicken Sundays? Let's do this!

Chad (00:54.147)


Chad (00:58.614)

So it's funny though, dude, guys falling asleep and farting in court. It's, it's the best. I mean, that's great. I mean, what do you expect from an old man to do? Right? Dude's almost 80. Of course, wherever he sits, he's going to fall asleep and he's going to fart. It's just, it is, it is what it is. Right. And if you put him in the court.

Joel Cheesman (01:04.985)

Oh, Trump. Okay. I was like, I was

Joel Cheesman (01:18.627)

I'm wondering, I'm wondering because he has he has that front butt, you know, like the butt in the front. I wonder where the farts come out or the is like dual exit. Yeah, dual legs. I don't know. He's so mad about he's so he's so mad about the artist rendition of him, which is funny. Like, get off my lawn and stop drawing me that way. So

Chad (01:27.338)

Oh, I don't want to know. It just kind of verb rates out the out.

Chad (01:41.902)

Don't you draw me.

Joel Cheesman (01:45.531)

Euro chat is clearly ready for takeoff. I appreciate like you're in such a good mood. I love it. Big plans this weekend like Scott's Yeah, that helped as well. Yeah, nice little primer there.

Chad (01:51.103)

Oh yes. Yeah. Scottsdale helped, yeah, and we're prepping, we're gonna be in Santa Fe next week, taking a little vacay-ish action with some friends in Santa Fe before going to Unleash, which we'll talk about later, but yeah, no, I am in total Eurochad mode because after Unleash, we're hopping on the jet plane and going to Europe.

Joel Cheesman (02:05.883)


Joel Cheesman (02:20.967)

Well, say a prayer for me. I'm doing a mini marathon this weekend. Yes. I know that seems a little crazy, right? But yeah, it's, uh, it was, it was a tradition. So my dad was a marathon or track coach, like, and so he was doing, he would do these marathons as he got older. He downgraded to mini marathons and my sister and I said, let's do it with them.

Chad (02:21.244)


Chad (02:27.244)

Oh, I hope they have the paddles. Hope they have the paddles ready.

Joel Cheesman (02:48.335)

start a family thing and we kind of hope that our kids would slowly like start joining us. And my sister has four girls, two of them have done it once and no more. Obviously Cole isn't doing it. Cole's not running unless someone's chasing him. Stella maybe, maybe at some point, but so far this may, this tradition may die with my sister and I, but I'll be in Louisville.

Chad (02:56.138)


Chad (02:59.614)

Okay. Yeah.

Chad (03:05.118)

Oh god no, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (03:13.883)

Louisville this weekend doing 13.1, uh, mostly walking miles. Thank God there's a lot of bourbon in Louisville to help, uh, comfort my pain that in some ibuprofen. All right, let's get to.

Chad (03:23.678)

Amen. A.

Chad (03:29.201)

Oh shit, well...

Shout out.

Joel Cheesman (03:34.723)

All right, Chad, this one, this one pains me, but I got a shout out for the, the VR haters out there, all the VI haters that are out there. So, uh, Apple came out with the vision pro, uh, one they have since apparently cut production from 800,000 to four, 400 to 450,000 units. Uh, Sony has halted production of their VR, something with the PlayStation gaming stuff and even meta says.

Chad (03:38.561)

Uh oh

Joel Cheesman (04:04.935)

They're having a hard time keeping users engaged once they actually buy the damn thing. So, unless Vision Pro turns around on their opinion that porn should not be on the Vision Pro, I think it's a big shout out for the folks who hate VR, which I know you are one of them. But so far, the verdict on VR and headsets is not good.

Chad (04:31.95)

The reason being is because you're not with anybody, but you know when you're with somebody and you're really experiencing VR, you did it this weekend. You went to fish at the sphere. The sphere is how you do virtual reality. Tell me I'm wrong.

Joel Cheesman (04:46.135)

The sphere is another animal. Now, how many of the people at a fish concert are really there with you? A lot of them were on another planet, I'm pretty sure. There were some hot messes at the sphere concert, but yeah, it was great. Look, I'm not a big fish fan. Their live stuff is way better, and if you throw in some substances and some of the visuals that the sphere has,

Chad (04:55.694)

Physically, physically, yes. Metaphysically.

Joel Cheesman (05:17.077)

It's a pretty good time. Shout out to fish and the sphere for sure. The new VR, it just costs a lot more per ticket than the headset does.

Chad (05:25.062)

It's, I mean, it's you get to do it with people and that's, and that's what matters. And that's what matters. Okay. My shout out, it's not really a shout out. It's the, what the actual fuck moment of the week. So the following was reported on A Louisville, or I'm sorry, a Louisiana committee voted Thursday to repeal a law requiring employers to give child workers lunch breaks. I'll say that again.

Joel Cheesman (05:29.715)

That's true.

Chad (05:53.122)

child workers lunch breaks and to cut unemployment benefits. Part of a push by Republicans to remove constraints on employers and reduce aid for injured and unemployed workers. That's from First time state rep Roger Wilder, who sponsored the child labor measure and owns, get this, Smoothie King franchises across the deep South said he filed the bill in part because children want to work without having to take a lunch break. He questioned why Louisiana has the requirement while other states where he has smoothie king locations such as Mississippi don't have them. So what the fuck? Roger Wilder. So out of 50 states, Louisiana is rated last, dead last in a place where you want to live, quality of life, right? Worst, well in healthcare they're 46th, education 48th, economy 47th, infrastructure 47th, opportunity 48th, crime and correction 50th. Louisiana is rated the worst state in the union to live in, followed by guess what other state? Guess what state? Yes, Mississippi.

Joel Cheesman (07:12.099)

Mississippi, Alabama.

Chad (07:17.506)

So this has been your Chad and Cheese what the actual fuck moment of the week. This is, I couldn't believe it.

Joel Cheesman (07:21.523)

But the football is amazing and the etouffée is to die for. I'll tell you that Chad. All right, well my last shout out, if you're a TikTok user, might've been kind of a bummer this week. Congress voted to give some money to Ukraine. Yeah, but that wasn't the lead story. It was TikTok being quote unquote banned. As many listeners know, you had a bet with Jim, the indeed whisperer Durbin for a.

Chad (07:27.235)

Ha ha! Get in and get out.

Joel Cheesman (07:50.415)

bottle of bourbon. Did he ever come? Did he ever honor that bet? Did you ever get the? Okay. All right. Well, good.

Chad (07:50.538)

did. Oh, he did. Oh, oh yeah. No, he did. No, he did. He sent me Eagle rare. He actually, he messaged Julian. He's like, what's Chad's favorite? And he's like, no, what's your favorite? And she's like, oh, Eagle rare. So yeah, she pretty much got a bottle of burp.

Joel Cheesman (07:59.604)

Okay, well that's...


Joel Cheesman (08:11.547)

She said yours and it was like, oh, that's expensive. What's your favorite then? Eagle Rare, if you can get it. Yeah, so if he had just a few more months, he might have been able to at least argue that was happening. Now, it's probably not an all out ban. Interesting, your comments on this, your opinion on this. So they have to divest it, they have to sell it to an American firm, or outright ban. What's your prediction on what happens?

Chad (08:18.335)

Which is not cheap.

Chad (08:26.032)

We still have a while.

Chad (08:41.462)

Yeah, it won't get banned. I mean, there's too much money there. Way too much money. Uh, China doesn't want to give up that kind of cash because there's a huge pond of, you know, ocean of cash here in the U S so they don't want to do that. And not to mention Trump had talked about doing this before the whole divestiture thing. So they, they've been thinking about it for a while. I would say that they saw this coming. Uh, and, uh, you know, so they're gonna, they're gonna slow roll it. There's no question. They're gonna.

play it smart, slow roll it, but they'll find a company to buy into it. There's no question.

Joel Cheesman (09:11.503)

Now, do you think that China will release? I mean, the algorithm is not coming with the deal. Do you think, and if not, is tick tock going to be the same tick tock without the algorithm?

Chad (09:24.094)

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how they actually do that on separate instances. They could prospectively do updates, which what it does is just updates the algorithm in a different instance, which is what we've seen with applicant tracking systems and HCM systems and so on and so forth over the years. So whenever you do a version update, they could prospectively do an algorithm update. I don't know. So we'll see, but that will be part of the deal to understand the algorithm itself.

Joel Cheesman (09:28.903)


Chad (09:54.118)

impact and then obviously the data that does that's in the U S that will not leave to go to China because it'll be under, I'm sure a separate holding company.

Joel Cheesman (10:03.759)

Yeah, I'm gonna go kind of kind of rogue on this one. I think I think there's a good chance no one's talking about it. I think there's a decent chance China says fuck off. And they kill it. I do think that's an option. I think China doesn't give a shit. I mean, they put they put Jack Ma, they put Jack Ma in some, you know, work worker, reeducation camp. I don't think China gives a shit. They might just say fuck it. It's gone then and see what and have fun with that American government.

Chad (10:19.15)

That's an option. What's the percentage on that?

Joel Cheesman (10:33.519)

with your kids, they're already protesting on college campuses everywhere.

Chad (10:36.566)

Then we win. I mean, that's the last thing they want, right? I mean, they can still get cash. Let's say for instance, how the deal might be structured. I'm not sure. We're both talking out of our asses right now, but it is interesting. There's no question.

Joel Cheesman (10:48.891)

Band in America, band in America. But what's not banned, Chad, and never will be banned, is free shit on Chad and Cheese. That's right, tell us about that.

Chad (10:53.569)

Free stuff, baby.

Joel Cheesman (11:05.643)

Very nice

Chad (11:07.286)

That's right. T-shirts, free t-shirts, kids. Beer by Aspen Tech Labs. Love those kids. We're talking craft beer. At your front doorstep. That's right. UPS, FedEx, whoever sends that stuff. Going to be at your front door. Along with the prospect of whiskey from our friends at Tex Kernel. We've got two bottles from one from Chad, one from Cheese. And if it's your birthday, it's rum from Plum, but you got to go to slash free to register to win.

Joel Cheesman (11:28.914)

Oh, birthday time.

Joel Cheesman (11:40.251)

That's right, Chad. Some listeners celebrating another trip around the sun is Jonathan Zilla, Duarte Mendonca, Daniel Kazinski, Matt Lazar, Gia Johnston, Chris Brevik, Michael Simon Cowell, Steve Gilbert, Charlotte Marshall, and Lars Schmidt. All celebrating another birthday. Thanks for listening and enjoy one on us.

Chad (12:01.93)


Chad (12:07.206)

Nice. So Lars is at like NBA headquarters or some shit like that doing like a, a photo shoot or something. I don't know. I don't know, but it must've been a birthday thing.

Joel Cheesman (12:13.563)

That dude is like quietly the coolest cat in our industry. He's got skateboards on the wall. He's, he's like laid back, but he's sort of DC hypercharge. I love it. Lars and Lars, not enough Lars in the world either.

Chad (12:21.174)

I love it, man. I gotta love it. Yep. Chill. Totally chill.

Chad (12:30.714)

Everybody needs a little bit more Lars. And well, maybe, I don't know, he might actually show up where? In Scotland. That's right. Because we're going to Scotland. We'll talk about Unleash in a minute. OK, but this is new. This is new. On May 21st, we're going to be at the Revolution de Cuba. That's right. In Glasgow, where we're going to, we're going to be jumping around all day with startups, with practitioners, we're going to be doing interviews, all that other fun stuff. But we're going to do a meetup.

Joel Cheesman (12:31.385)


Joel Cheesman (12:36.464)

Oh shit.

Chad (13:00.362)

at revolution day Cuba in Glasgow. Notice how I love saying that, uh, not to mention on May that's May 21st, May 23rd, we're going to the three sisters bar in Edinburgh, apparently people were killed in the dungeon of this place. I mean, that's probably everywhere in Scotland, but three sisters bar in Edinburgh, that's on the 23rd.

Joel Cheesman (13:05.199)

I love that. I love it.

Chad (13:26.734)

You can register for one or both events at Thanks for all of the sponsors, for all of the help and all of the support. We've got Daxtra, got Ashby, Solutions Driven,, Willow, Poetry, and we actually have some Daxtra news coming here soon. But appreciate all of the help and all of the fun and what do you think? I mean, other than whiskey, this is awesome.

both our first times in Scotland.

Joel Cheesman (13:57.483)

Oh, I'm super excited. Uh, bringing the wife. I know you are too. Um, I think we're going to go on some sort of secret tasting, uh, expedition with our friend, Steven McGrath, who knows where the hell that's going to end up? Uh, so doing that never been to Scotland. I'm going to soak it all in. Uh, I'm, I'm shopping for kilts. Um, I'm, I'm looking for haggis, uh, at, at my local Kroger. They don't have it. So I don't know where I can get some.

Chad (14:20.478)

Yes! I'm not doing that.

Joel Cheesman (14:28.752)

So, so Scotch eggs are on the menu if I can't get some get some haggis but yeah, totally excited. You know, I love a good Scotch. Pete me up baby smoke it up. I'm excited for sure. Yeah. Love me some Scotland.

Chad (14:32.462)

OK, there we go.

Chad (14:40.406)

I know, I know. So we're excited about that. Go to Again, two events, Glasgow and Edinburgh. Then, well, even before we get to Scotland, hopefully we make it to Scotland. We've got this coming and this is, this is watch everybody. This is what we're getting ready to do. We've got live from the stratosphere.

Joel Cheesman (14:52.263)


Chad (15:16.686)

Uh oh. Apparently the winds are too high.

Joel Cheesman (15:24.443)

Ha ha ha.

Chad (15:30.386)

It's Joel Cheeseman, everybody!

Joel Cheesman (15:31.204)

Yeah, thanks, man.

Joel Cheesman (15:44.967)

Tell the listeners what they missed if they're not watching us on YouTube right now.

Chad (15:45.934)

Oh, that's right, kids. Yes. Well, yeah, if you're not listening, you missed super J Dave jumping off the top of the stratosphere, uh, which we're going to be doing with Matt Bauer, CEO of out higher, it's over 800 feet that we're going to be dropping. We're going to be falling in super Dave style. At least you're going to be doing super Dave style. Um, but listener, you can jump with us.

Joel Cheesman (16:05.363)


Chad (16:11.75)

or you can nominate a friend or enemy depending on what you like. I just go to Chad, she's and click on the jump with us button right there in the header. Uh, thanks to the high flying staff over at out hire. We appreciate you guys making this happen. It's going to be a blast. Joel can't wait. He's excited. Look at him. Look at his face.

Joel Cheesman (16:12.563)


Joel Cheesman (16:33.395)

wearing the out-hire t-shirt this week, wearing the out-hire depends on jump day, if you will.

Chad (16:37.815)

Very nice, you're nice. Yeah.

Chad (16:43.37)

Everybody, everybody buys stock and depends. That's for sure. Then we're going to go to the mine. Yeah. Well, no, we got to go to the minus five bar. That's Omar's ice castle at the minus five bar with Diane and Jane from great people and Omar from job pixel. Go ahead and if you check us out on the socials, mainly probably on LinkedIn, uh, if you haven't connected with us, go ahead and do that. Take a look at our, our stream.

Joel Cheesman (16:44.995)

Yeah. You ready for topics? Nope. Okay.

Joel Cheesman (16:53.827)

Oh yeah.

Chad (17:11.858)

We actually have where you can Register that's right to come have some beers with us at the ice castle Then we're going to do the neon lights with plum on the night of May 8th Come and bask in the glow of the neon boneyard with our friends from plum During neon nights kind of like boogie nights, but without the skates

Joel Cheesman (17:20.858)


Chad (17:35.918)

Um, just go to Chad slash events, click on the join waitlist button and cross your fingers. Kids hope you get on the waitlist. We hope that we see you there.

Joel Cheesman (17:45.575)

So I have a funny story about the neon graveyard. So I get a text, I don't know if you got a text. Cheeseman, it's Michelle from Plum. I need your music mind. The music at Neon Nights is designed to resonate with the generation attending. Think best dance party you attended in the 90s and early 2000s. Stuff you wanna sing along and tap your toe to, even if you're not a dancer like my friend, Jason Putnam. So.

Chad (17:54.825)

Oh, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (18:14.811)

I have been burdened with the task of going back to the 90s and the 2000s for the songs that really hit me, hit me in the, uh, the happy feet to recommend a soundtrack for the, uh, the party. So

Chad (18:23.246)

Okay. That's easy.

Chad (18:31.298)

She's doing that because she wants you to dance. She's going to say, Cheeseman, this is yours. This is yours so that you have to dance to this one.

Joel Cheesman (18:32.403)

Because I'm old.

Joel Cheesman (18:37.539)

Yeah. I have visions of a 22 year old saying, eh, we need some music. We have some old people, this thing, like, who should we ask about music? And they come to me, which I thought was pretty flattering yet a little bit insulting at the same time. What are you, what are you going to do about it? Maybe talk about.

Chad (18:55.031)


Joel Cheesman (18:56.783)

All right, hot off the presses everybody. UK based Daxtra has acquired Indianapolis based Pivot CX. Daxtra says it's a specialist in high accuracy multilingual job and resume parsing, semantic search matching and recruitment automation. While Pivot touts itself as an all in one talent acquisition communications hub. The acquisition aims to provide a better candidate and recruiter experience.

Chad (18:59.574)

News break news break.

Joel Cheesman (19:26.427)

Founded in 2002, Daxtra employs 114 while Pivot founded in 2015, employs less than 10. Chad, your thoughts on the acquisition.

Chad (19:39.786)

Yeah, Pivot was work Remember that? They were work here, kind of like a geo-fenced kind of thing that, I mean, you know, it was kind of weird, kind of cool at the same time. But they pivoted out of that, changed leadership and got Pivot CX. Our favorite Steven Seagal, you know, from the HR industry actually works there, David Bernstein. And it's interesting because we're...

Joel Cheesman (19:42.987)

Oh, it's a long, strange trip that they've been on. Yes. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (19:56.368)

Pun intended.

Chad (20:09.022)

in and around Indianapolis and they're from Scotland. Oh, what's happening? We just talked about Scotland. Eerie, eerie. Um, this, this reminds me of, of text colonels acquisition when they, they bought the, uh, the, the actual job bot or I can't remember the name of it where it was a chat bot. Yeah. It was, it was, it was an engagement engine, right? Uh, Daxtra's ability to find the most qualified candidates through parsing and matching technology.

Joel Cheesman (20:16.047)


Joel Cheesman (20:25.387)

Yeah, Job Boddy.

Yeah, yeah.

Chad (20:36.458)

Adding that to Pivot's ability to quickly engage and increase candidate conversion rates. Then what did Terry do before he did this? Pando? Programmatic? All of this like kind of like comes together. So whether they do an acquisition of some type of programmatic tech, or they closely partner with an organization like Recruitics or something like that, I think from my standpoint, wait a minute, timeout. Did they not just, I think they.

Joel Cheesman (20:45.043)


Chad (21:05.91)

They literally just partnered with a... Give me a second here. Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hivit CX, they just literally just. Go ahead.

Joel Cheesman (21:13.371)

about Daxtra ? Yeah, like a month ago.

Joel Cheesman (21:22.279)

So you mentioned work here. I think just for the annals of history, I think it's interesting to note what work here's model was. It was like Yelp-ish stickers on a business. So you go to like maybe the Applebee's down the street, you put a work here sticker, and then you have to download an app. Remember when companies asked you to download their app and you would actually do it. So you did that and then you would see jobs based on you're in this location or you,

Chad (21:34.05)

Yep. Uh huh.

Chad (21:44.782)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Or you didn't.

Joel Cheesman (21:52.219)

downloaded it through a QR code or whatever. And then that didn't quite work out. Uh, companies didn't want stickers on their doors. They didn't want like all the questions that probably came with like, Oh, do you work here? You got jobs? Like, yeah, you got to download the list. That thing like what, why, why? Just give me, just tell me what's up. So anyway, so then it became kind of an interesting, uh, like they would go to Starbucks, for example. I don't know if they went to Starbucks, but everyone knows Starbucks and they would say, okay, Starbucks, you need people at this location on one 16th. And.

Chad (22:16.428)


Joel Cheesman (22:22.035)

and Simmons or something. And then they would like geotarget advertising with Facebook and like, we just want this certain area to get advertisements for this Starbucks for jobs, job fair, whatever. And that was pretty cool, but it doesn't scale very well, right? Like, okay, how many locations do you have? How much advertising? When is the job for over? You got to cancel it. So that was like kind of a pain in the ass. I think they went through some shuffling of leadership.

Chad (22:25.815)


Joel Cheesman (22:50.307)

Um, at one point and then came out with pivot, uh, I can't believe the pivot wasn't available, but anyway, it wasn't. And there's like, we're just, we're just going to do messaging, uh, engagement shit and along comes Daxtra who does, I don't know, matching resume, parsing, et cetera. Now you need a way, a way to communicate with these folks. Terry Baker, we know, uh, Mike Seidel who we know.

Howard Bates is there as well. There's an interesting cast of characters. Makes total sense that, well, I can search the resumes and find the people, but now how do I contact them? Well, here's snap of a button. Now you can message them, call them. They have video options as well. So it's a perfect kind of marriage. And my guess is Pivot took very little money. at all. So I think it was a really cheap acquisition. And Terry with the Wade and Wendy thing, I think he understood the importance of the communication element, not just finding the job or the candidate. So I think it was, like you said, Steven Seagal, everyone knows, I'm sure Terry was like making the calls and seeing who was available, kicking the tires. And Pivot was more than willing to have a conversation about, yeah, how do we get this thing done and get this marriage.

Um, completed, my guess is that the pivot brand will go away. Uh, Seagal will, will be a sales guy for Daxtra in the near future. I don't know. Howard, I imagine we'll be there for a year to kind of. Transfer everything over. I don't see him sticking around. I see, I think Mike will stick around. Sidell. I think he'll, he'll be there for the ride. Hopefully local company, uh, maybe hopefully they jack up some, uh, money and hire some people here in the Hoosier state.

Chad (24:28.138)

If that. If that, yeah.

Yes. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (24:40.895)

and put some money in the local economy. That would be nice. And yeah, it makes sense. I hope it works out.

Chad (24:49.654)

I just connected some dots right out of the gate because I just remembered a press release that came out, I think it was last week or earlier this week. First and foremost, Howard was, I think was the money guy, so I don't see him, he's going to take his payday and get the fuck out. They were just talking about a programmatic player. They partnered with Acquire ROI earlier this week or last week, and that's a new programmatic player in the space. Actually a new sponsor of Chad and Cheese.

Joel Cheesman (24:50.632)

Well, good.

Chad (25:19.09)

So now, if you think about it, you've got this engine, right? That is a search and match engine that can go against your database or other databases to be able to actually target individuals who are qualified for the job and then use PivotCX to start the engagement, right? So that's like the internal passive. Then you go after the active. How do you do that with Programmatic? Well, you've got Acquire ROI, who are the new kids on the block.

Joel Cheesman (25:41.639)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chad (25:46.946)

they want to start making some fucking waves. This is a great way to make some waves, right? Be a part of a much larger ecosystem. So this is, I think, good all the way around. Again, we saw a text kernel do something similar to this over in Europe, watching Daxtra do that with pivot CX and then also with acquire ROI from a engagement and then also a programmatic standpoint. I mean, this makes a hell of a lot more sense now.

Joel Cheesman (26:14.211)

Yep, the only pieces missing are a QR code generator and an ATS.

Chad (26:23.35)

That's why we talk about ZipRecruiter.

Joel Cheesman (26:24.359)

That's right. All right. We got, we got, I'm calling this the red meat block. Uh, our listeners love this, this shit. So we're going to throw it at them, throwing the meat in the cage, everybody. All right. ZipRecruiter CFO, uh, Tim Yarborough has sold what calls a quote, significant amount of company stock in quote, to the tune of over $60,000. Meanwhile, tech crunch has discovered and verified that LinkedIn is developing a new subscription service called LinkedIn.

Chad (26:29.906)

Okay, okay. So much meat, yes.

Joel Cheesman (26:52.691)

premium company page. That's a mouthful priced at potentially up to $99 a month. This service would provide AI driven content creation and advanced tools to increase follower numbers. But wait Chad, there's more work day faces allegations of a biased AI based applicant screening system. Our friends at the EEOC argue work day should be held accountable as an intermediary work day. Shocker denies the allegations.

Chad (27:11.81)


Joel Cheesman (27:22.551)

ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, and Workday. How's that for red meat, everybody? Chad, your thoughts.

Chad (27:29.73)

Yeah. I mean, we talked a lot about ZipRecruiter last week, where I was calling for Ian's head. I hate to say it, but this is a brand in decline. I guess I don't have to say it. Everybody can see it and it's in serious need of new leadership and swagger. ZipRecruiter is giving zombie vibes at this moment. Um, on the, on the LinkedIn side of the house, let me repeat this from the, from the whole, uh, article that was out.

This new LinkedIn service would provide AI driven content creation and advanced tools to increase follower numbers among other benefits to elevate a company's visibility. Two things, number one, this is exactly what we do not fucking need from AI, spam. A spam creation machine, no. Number two, fix the old dilapidated shit in your current system. Your basic matching to the... profile data that we have is horrible. You should be amazing at that. You suck at that. Fix the shit that's not working. They're throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall, which I normally love, but the problem is the shit that should be working, the base stuff, isn't even working. So why do I think that this has any longevity to it whatsoever? I'll let you go on that one. Then we'll start talking about workday because we've got to dig in on that one. Whoo, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (28:47.987)

Why should you? You take, you take a breather, take a breather and we'll get to work day. Cause I know you got some insight info from our friends at the EOC. So the ZipRecruiter thing, um, I thought it was pretty funny that called it a quote, significant amount of company stock. I mean, it wasn't a huge amount of stock. Um, 60 grand. I don't know. Maybe the dude's kid got into Dartmouth and needed a down payment or maybe the tax man. had some money. He still owns 180,000 plus shares, around $1.8 million. I'm sure he'd love for it to be more, but unfortunately, ZipRecruiter stock is going sideways in a bad way. The other side of that to me is like, why cash it in when you can get a loan against it and then you don't pay taxes on it? So do you think ultimately he thinks, well, it's not going up.

Chad (29:18.702)

It was a family trust.

Joel Cheesman (29:44.655)

So get rid of it now before it goes down to $8, $7, $6 a share. I don't make investment advice on the show, but the stock isn't going in the right direction. So cashing out on a little bit of it, um, makes sense. And of course we talked about last week, how the COO had sold a big chunk of stock back in December. So it's a trend worth watching. Uh, if Ian dumps a bunch of shares and maybe some, maybe the S you know, some other executives do it could be interesting, but yeah, not a company on the rise.

Chad (30:08.863)

and now gone.

Joel Cheesman (30:14.259)

In terms of LinkedIn, I'm not as mad about it as you are. I ain't mad at them. Look, you and I talked to a lot of startups. We advise a lot of startups. And these startups that have social media profiles everywhere that just have these dead, lifeless social media accounts, my recommendation is always like, until you get dedicated resources, pick one. And that one in our space is almost always LinkedIn. So focus on that. If they could...

If they could manage better content being created that's relevant, don't spam people. I agree, there's a line there and people have to follow these companies and they can unfollow them as well if they blow them up with spam. But companies are looking for a way to keep these social media channels up and running. And if LinkedIn can plug in like, oh, hey, here's the best time to post.

Chad (30:59.758)

It's gonna go crazy.

Joel Cheesman (31:11.995)

Here's the best kind of content to post. Here's what's getting the most engagement. Like that could be a really good thing for companies, especially startups. It's also a warning letter to marketing people that don't keep their social media company sites active. Yeah, AI is coming for your job. So you better start thinking outside the box and being creative with the content that you're putting on social media. Otherwise your boss is gonna go.

Chad (31:32.395)

Get your shit together.

Joel Cheesman (31:40.667)

Gee, there's an AI that's $99 a month that can do what you're doing. So sayonara. So sayonara baby. Yeah. Sayonara. So it's a, it's a, it's, it's a little bit of a warning to marketing people. Again, it's back to AI won't take your job, but people who do know AI will. So leverage this new service the best you can with what you're currently doing, but marketing people need to up their game. Uh, if they're social media sites and most of them do have shitty.

Chad (31:47.963)

How much do you cost me? Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (32:08.327)

sucky voodoo, zombie-esque, uh, social media sites. They got to get on that.

Chad (32:14.122)

Yeah. Here's the thing. Uh, it was funny, I was talking to a TA practitioner today and she was talking about how much spam she gets in her in-mail. Oh, it's going to get worse kids. So to, to the workday side of the house, last week, we had a chance to spend some time with EEOC commissioner Sonderling. And let me tell you, after working with government for decades, he's a breath of fresh air, uh, because he's practical and he understands business. This case is none of that.

Joel Cheesman (32:35.504)


Chad (32:43.358)

It's not practical or even in the line of basic understanding of what a system like Workday currently does for tens of thousands of companies. Now, I say currently because the velocity of tech is moving at work warp speed. And from my understanding, the EEOC is trying to liken Workday and its technology to a staffing agency. Why? A staffing agency performs hiring decisions for its clients. And if Workday or any other technology provider, um, did the same type of service for its clients as an embedded part of the, uh, the platform, then it could be seen in the same vein. Right. So I believe this case, um, it's going to be dismissed because the laws currently on the books specifically point to the employer having responsibility in a case like this, not the actual vendor.

Joel Cheesman (33:33.212)


Chad (33:39.222)

but it does feel like foreshadowing, knowing proposed legislation in states like California have pulled the vendor into the accountability spotlight already and knowing tech companies are already gearing up to help in the decision making process. So this was a conversation we will be having regularly in the near future, but not about workday, not this time and not about workday. Had a chance to kind of like message back and forth with Keith about it.

Joel Cheesman (33:58.741)


Chad (34:08.842)

And he's in the same line of thinking, you know, uh, he, he doesn't think that, uh, this is going to be a case that's going to go far. Um, you know, but I really feel like this is literally a shot across, across vendors bow. So they need to start thinking about this.

Joel Cheesman (34:24.915)

Hmm. Yeah, I didn't know what to make of this because it did sound odd. It sounds like a loser. I don't think any person that knows is in the know thinks of workday as a staffing element or firm. But to me, it was to me, it felt a lot like the EOC has done very little and in regards to convictions. of AI. It's just hard. It's a black box. We talk about it with Keith and others a lot proving bias with AI is really challenging and AI is all over the news. I think there you know my initial reaction was I bet there's a lot of pressure on the EOC to do some shit about all this AI stuff that's freaking people out. And what better company bigger company to go after than a workday? Even though they know it's probably a loser, it's a great headline. And the headline does at least say, Oh, the EEOC is going after someone like workday, uh, to like, you know, get under the, get under the hood and figure out what's going on. So it makes for a good headline, which I think relieves some pressure off the EEOC. Um, I do think that it is going to wake employers up. A lot of CEOs are going to HR and saying, Hey, they're going after workday.

Chad (35:43.735)


Joel Cheesman (35:52.387)

Are we dotting our eyes and crossing our T's to make sure that we're not doing anything bad, like, and by the way, we're, we're using work day. Uh, are we in trouble? So I, part of me thinks it's a PR play and part of me thinks it is a, like, Hey, we can, we can get you if you fuck around, you're going to find out. And we're going to like be in the headlines, going after big company to make sure that you guys are well aware that we can come after you, but it feels like a total loser, um, like it may not even like.

Chad (35:57.075)


Joel Cheesman (36:21.723)

dismissed, you said, um, I don't know if that's Keith's words or yours, but, um, I don't think it goes very far at all. It's just a good headline.

Chad (36:31.95)

I think the smarter companies, and again, we were in Scottsdale last week with Paradox and they were very, very clear. Our tech does not make decisions. It's process efficiency. It does a lot of things, but it does not make decisions. It helps the process and the human makes the decisions. Now you get a company like Hired Score, right? That could, prospectively, be making decisions, right?

Joel Cheesman (36:55.843)

Yeah. Oh.

Chad (36:57.486)

And again, if you start taking a look at just the framework of what a staffing company does, they make decisions on the types of individuals who are going to be put into your organization. A technology could prospectively do the same. And we've been talking about some companies being the operating system for staffing companies to be able to really rev this up. So this is going to be a conversation that's going to be carried forward. I think it is a legit conversation, maybe in about 18 months, but not with work day right now.

Joel Cheesman (37:20.733)


Joel Cheesman (37:27.271)

Do you think the hired score acquisition put them in the crosshairs of the EEOC? No.

Chad (37:27.444)

No way.

Chad (37:33.674)

Nah, nah, this was happening way before that happened. I think what will, what will be awesome about this is Athena and her team are geared for defensibility and explainability. So they're going to be ready for something like this. Uh, I don't see, again, I don't see work day being a problem, uh, because they have the right people in place.

Joel Cheesman (37:55.291)

Let's take a quick break guys. Listen to the sponsors because there is no show without the sponsors. And after you that leave a review for us on your favorite podcast platform of choice.

Chad (38:00.162)


Joel Cheesman (38:11.375)

Power to the people. All right, Chad. Big news this week on non-competes. The federal government is not a fan, apparently, of them. That's right, the Federal Trade Commission issued a rule banning non-competes nationwide, saying the change would protect the fundamental freedom of workers to change jobs while increasing innovation and fostering new business formation. Chad, I'm guessing you're a fan, but what are your thoughts?

Chad (38:14.743)

There it is.

Chad (38:23.169)


Chad (38:42.442)

Yeah, I mean, you've probably had a non-compete before. I've had a non-compete before. You know, we're in industries where it's really hard to stay in the industry if you've had a non-compete, especially the types of positions we've been in. You know, digging into this one in five, U.S. workers are bound by contract clauses that prevent them from taking new jobs from a competitor. So the U.S. Federal Trade Commission on Tuesday issued a final rule. that bans most non-competes nationwide. The agency estimated by allowing people more freedom, the change would lead to the creation of 8,500 new businesses annually, lower healthcare costs, and as many as 29,000 more patents each year over the next decade, okay? By allowing more freedom. The thing is, Company protections have been weighing high over employee protections. We're starting to see a shift in that. And this is one of those shifts, really a redistribution in power.

Joel Cheesman (39:52.215)

Yes, I have signed a non-compete and yes, I have been sent letters to say like, watch your step, watch yourself. Um, I'm a crazy man, Chad. I'm crazy. I need, I need to be re reigned in sometimes. Uh, typically what happens, uh, in my experience and anecdotally is you get a new job, you're super excited and they go, Oh, here's this thing you need to sign. Oh, it just says you won't.

Chad (40:01.111)

It sucks. Yeah.

Chad (40:08.487)


Joel Cheesman (40:21.327)

You know, compete, go to a competitor, da da. And most people like, yeah, I love this place. I'm not going anywhere. This is fantastic. Yeah. I'm making how much money? Oh yeah. Okay. Let's do that. And then, and then you want to leave, but then you think, oh, should I sign that thing that restricts me from doing it now? How many people, how many people stay at the job because, uh, they can't leave or don't think they can leave. I don't know. We'll, we'll never know those numbers.

Chad (40:27.63)

No big deal. Yeah.

Chad (40:40.491)

and you're trapped.

Mm. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (40:48.807)

How many companies actually follow through on the threats of the non-compete agreement? Probably very, very few. Um, it just creates a mess. It creates the company that just hired you. There's an, uh, the discomfort in that, Oh, that we hired someone. There's this agreement. Do we fight it? Like what happens? It's, it should, it should not be a thing really. Uh, I mean,

Chad (41:07.566)


Joel Cheesman (41:14.383)

there are non-compete and a non-disclosure are different things. And I like, so the agreement of you shouldn't go work for a competitor versus you can go work for the competitor. But the minute we find out you're giving trade secrets or you're, you know, stealing, uh, hiring, yeah, poaching. Like those, those are, you know, those are different things, but you shouldn't restrict this America, Jack. Uh, you shouldn't make you shouldn't.

Chad (41:31.758)

hiring people away from us. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (41:42.235)

You shouldn't restrict where people can go work. Yeah. And, and, um, the, if you think about this is off the table, it will create a really interesting dynamic with people leaving companies, starting companies. That's another one too, is like, I'd love to start a competitor, but I can't cause I signed this non-compete thing. Um, competition is good for business. Uh, that's going to be a positive. More people are hired out of startups than more established companies. So it's a good thing. Now what I.

Chad (41:44.398)

This is un-American. Anti-freedom.

Joel Cheesman (42:10.383)

What I told you on our ATAP conversation is sort of my knee jerk reaction. I think it's true. Chamber of commerce is going to fight this, uh, tooth and nail. It's going to go to, it's going to go to a higher court more than likely. Um, the Supreme court is a right leaning court. Is it more business friendly? You could argue yes. Uh, in that case, where does that, where does, where does the decision go? But I think most, most Americans think, yes, you should be able to go wherever you want, you can't tell secrets. You can't.

Chad (42:20.406)

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Joel Cheesman (42:39.983)

like do certain things, but you shouldn't be restricted to, Oh, you can't get a job in the restaurant industry because you worked at a restaurant. Like that's just kind of silly in my mind. So I hope it passes. It's in for a long legal fight. But I think the, you know, the just the, the arc of justice will bend in the right direction when, when all is said and done on this one.

Chad (43:05.73)

Well, I mean, the working class has been negatively impacted by this. Employee treatment, why treat employees well? Why you don't have to if they feel like they're trapped, right? Obviously, you are from a productivity standpoint, but companies really haven't focused on productivity. Um, suppressed rate wages, it makes it easier for you not to get paid more. And I've mentioned this several times and I'll mention it again. CEO pay has soared. It has gone.

Joel Cheesman (43:13.019)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chad (43:33.938)

1200% higher since 1978 to today versus typical workers rates of 15.3%, right? There are all these different things that are in place that are allowing those things to happen because workers feel like they're trapped. If they don't feel like they're trapped anymore, a lot of things can happen. Higher innovation rates, better pay, and not to mention we're in a space right now in America. There's this huge division and it's like we're not a society that's a community anymore. That's because there are a lot of people that are in poverty. If we can help them go maybe start their own company, maybe go to another company, maybe get paid more, et cetera, et cetera, people become more happy that way when they feel like they're free. And today, if you like to try.

Joel Cheesman (44:22.247)

Sure, sure. And CEOs, you mentioned, they're actually more likely to, you know.

to go against their non-compete because they can afford to fight it. And typically the company that hires a new CEO will say, yes, we'll back you on your non-compete in fighting it. Whereas the average line manager doesn't have that option. They're just kind of trapped and they certainly shouldn't be. Well, non-competes to hell with them. In other news, the US Department of Labor raised the salary threshold for overtime eligibility for salaried workers affecting millions.

Chad (44:35.078)

Eject. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (45:01.319)

Threshold will increase to $43,888 in July and $58,656 in 2025. Employers and trade associations expressed concerns about increased cost and potential job losses. Chad, your thoughts on raising the salary threshold for overtime salaries.

Chad (45:23.266)

This is another one of the mechanisms that were used to keep wages low. CEO wages to the moon 1200%, you know, and then we're bumping around like 15.3%. So yes, moving positions to salary was one of the quick and easy cheat codes to fucking over employees. Give them a bigger title, a salary, slight increases over their hourly wages, and then make them work 60.

Joel Cheesman (45:40.484)


Chad (45:50.482)

80 hours a week without the overtime. So acting labor secretary, Julie Sue said in a statement, quote, too often lower paid salary workers are doing the same job as the hour, their hourly counterparts, but they are spending more time away from their families for no additional pay. End quote. Again, we're on this big blue ball. One time kids got to spend it with the people that we love. Not saying that we don't like people at work, but we've got. things to do, go get your feet in the sand, go enjoy time with your family. And doing this and not getting the pay, the salary pay. Again, this is about happiness and these types of moves are going to make people more happy.

Joel Cheesman (46:35.523)

I know I for one can't stand my coworker, but that's a different podcast altogether. Uh, you're right. Look, employers, employers are always, yeah. Thank God for that. Uh, employers are always looking for ways to skirt the rules, stick it to the man, if you will, uh, stick it to the little guy. Uh, and this is the way to do it. Like we'll put, we don't want to pay you more as an hourly. We'll make you a salaried employee and all the benefits that come with being a salaried employee. Oh, you got to work late again.

Chad (46:43.009)

You're not with me 40 hours a week, that's for damn sure.

Joel Cheesman (47:05.295)

But you're not an hourly employee, so your salary doesn't move. It's sort of a dirty game. I'm not saying all employers do that. According to this release, about 4 million workers are impacted by this new law positively. What I think is interesting is that they're saying that the income transfer from employer to employee is going to be to the tune of about $1.5 billion a year and you and I both know that historically if money goes in the hands of working people, it goes right back into the economy in the form of services and goods. If it sticks in the realm of the employer, it gets hidden away in savings, whatever. To me, I think this could be a really interesting injection of activity in the economy where this money goes right back into goods and services. I think that's something that a lot of people aren't thinking about.

Chad (47:42.839)


Chad (47:47.522)

It's all good.

Joel Cheesman (48:02.939)

when we're giving money back to the working class. So good for the economy, good for those folks, and probably not all that bad for the employers, by the way. Well, and more news in the Power to the People block chat and a historic victory for the UAW, nearly three quarters of Volkswagen workers in Chattanooga, Tennessee voted to unionize, marking the first successful auto factory unionization in the South.

Chad (48:14.837)

Not at all.

Joel Cheesman (48:32.375)

Since the 1940s, this win caps off a strong year for the US labor market, which has seen increased support and organizing victories across various industries. The UAW aims to use this momentum to continue its organizing effort into the South, including at Mercedes-Benz facilities in Alabama. Chad, your thoughts.

Chad (48:56.954)

Yeah, Sean Fain has a message. He's actually speaking directly to the laborers and he's winning. We just talked about the again, CEO pay. That's what he's talking about. He's talked about specifically CEO pay. Why are they getting these huge raises and you guys are getting fucked and you're getting and you're paying and you're working harder for the same pay, right? So, I mean, this is all about fairness. Plus, I thought was interesting. Biden jumped on the train very quickly and he chimed in and said quote Let me be clear to the Republican governors that tried to undermine this vote There is nothing to fear from American workers using their own voice and their legal right to form a union if they so choose End quote on the back of that win for unions Biden also won the endorsement of the North America building trade union association. So

After decades of employees getting fucked over, CEO pay skyrocketing while American workers accept poverty wages, trapped in jobs with non-competes, forced to work overtime without getting paid for overtime, it feels like the American worker is finally, are we getting our time? Is the time happening, Joel? Ha ha ha.

Joel Cheesman (50:13.04)

I'm out.

Joel Cheesman (50:16.339)

We're getting our time. And as one of our guests said, it's a five-year holiday from the robots taking over everything, which may or may not be true. I guess we'll find out at some point. Yeah, look, I was shocked. You know I was shocked when Detroit succumbed to, when the UAW won in Detroit, I was shocked. And frankly, that it's heading south, I'm not as shocked. Like it was a big win, winning is contagious and more and more workers are seeing what's happening in Detroit. And they want that. They want a little piece of that in the South and the West. And then even in Texas, they want a little bit of that. And, and Elon Musk, I'm sure is scared to death. I don't know if you saw what, you know, Tesla, Tesla's up too, but, uh, things are a little challenged at Tesla. So the last thing Elon wants is a union.

Chad (50:57.762)

Don't blame them.

Joel Cheesman (51:09.175)

Uprising, but this is the world we live in and this is a trend that's going to keep going and going and car companies and everyone needs to think about it. And look, even you mentioned some other news outside of that. We shared a story about Samsung and the six-day work week at Samsung for thought jobs or knowledge-based jobs. You look at Google rolling back requirements that US suppliers and staffing firms pay their employees at in a move to avoid bargaining with unions. So even companies that we don't necessarily think of as union caring are now suddenly thinking about the unions. And Samsung, like six days a week, why? I don't know. In Europe, they're giving robots days off for God's sakes. Like let's make the humans work more and we're gonna give robots some time off. So it's a trend you gotta root for, I think, no matter where you are. Politically like people that have been sucking it for a long time or finally getting their due and I think it's a good thing

Chad (52:11.822)

Yeah. Amen.

Joel Cheesman (52:14.643)

We'll be right back.

Joel Cheesman (52:19.379)

Can I get a little fast food news for my final block on the show? All right. Chick Chick-fil-A employee at Mary the siren was told by the chains PR team to stop posting tip talk reviews. She then partnered with Shake Shack with her first post getting over 865,000 views. The partnership coincided with Shake Shack's chicken Sundays campaign. In case you missed it. Chick-fil-A is closed.

Chad (52:24.817)

I think you're gonna get it. I think you're gonna get it, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (52:48.727)

on Sundays. Mary gained over 50,000 TikTok followers since starting her reviews in January, totaling over 105,000 followers today. Chad, your thoughts on this chicken battle?

Chad (53:03.398)

Okay, we're gonna we're gonna play this TikTok first and then and then we'll come back

Joel Cheesman (53:18.343)

That is a good looking sandwich.

Chad (53:19.042)

Juicy Chicken.

Chad (53:33.454)

Look at that chicken.

Chad (53:37.362)

Okay. I can't cause it's, it's almost, it's almost lunch and I, I can't do anymore. Um, Oh yeah, the review was eight minutes and I mean, Jesus chicken be damned. What idiots. And this isn't, this isn't a new story at all for all of you, Chad and cheese veteran listeners. You will remember our lightning in a paint can episode back in 2020.

Joel Cheesman (53:41.19)

The review is eight minutes, is that right?

Chad (54:02.198)

where we talked to Tony Pilsino, a former Sherwin Williams employee and TikTok superstar who was fired from Sherwin Williams for posting paint mixing videos. People were loving watching the Sherwin Williams payment and it got fired. So I'm sure Sherwin Williams, they couldn't even spell TikTok back in 2020. But four years later, everyone knows TikTok and you have an influencer under your own roof who's pimping.

Jesus Chicken for free? I mean, come on, man.

Joel Cheesman (54:33.479)

Well, first of all, for Shake Shack.

Joel Cheesman (54:39.111)

Like phase one of this, like you mentioned, Sherwin Williams dumps a dude with millions of views on how to mix paints and shit. Like what he's doing now is he started his own little paint thing or something. Like if this had happened today, let's hope that Lowe's or whoever the hell else sells paint would be like, oh, we're happy to bring you into the TikTok fold over here at Lowe's until it's banned by Congress in a few weeks. But good on.

Chad (54:53.622)


Joel Cheesman (55:08.015)

Shake Shack for realize, you know, seeing an opportunity and grabbing it. Um, and the whole, the whole closed on Sunday thing to me, I'm shocked that no one sort of picked up on that because chicken sandwiches are huge, right? Popeyes everyone's dropping chicken sandwiches and Shake Shack. This probably isn't their brand, but if, like Burger King should have done like, uh, the hell's chicken sandwich.

like only available on Sunday to kind of stick it to Chick-fil-A. But talking about chicken, Chad, I don't know if you saw Chipotle's earnings this week, but they are crushing it. But the out past or chicken, I don't know if you've tried this stuff. It's amazing. They they're selling so much of it that they're telling their employees, like don't have the chicken as your free meal because we're selling so much goddamn chicken. Chipotle is what I'm talking about, Chad. And if you can't get behind that cluck, I don't know what kind of cluck you can get behind. We out.

Chad (56:19.374)

We out.


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