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Live Show: Recruit Philly

What happens when you get about 100 recruiters in Philly to witness a live Chad & Cheese podcast? A whole lotta trash talkin' about CareerBuilder, Monster, Ladders, Indeed and anyone else who gets out of line, apparently. Grab a Yuengling and get jawn. You're bound to enjoy this live show.

Afterwards, give love to our sponsors Sovren, Canvas and JobAdx.


Keca Ward: How many of you do listen to the Chad and Cheese Podcast? Yeah. They're going to be doing it live, and you're gonna hear this I think tomorrow, right guys? Maybe?

Joel: If Chad sobers up.

Keca Ward: Okay. Depends on the sobriety level of these guys. Please give a big, warm welcome. It is 1:15, so we can get going to Chad and Cheese.

Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark.

Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Chad: All right, Philly!

Chad: So, luckily, we got beer, because we almost left.

Joel: Yo guys, this is the weekly show, so you guys gotta represent Philly...

Chad: Right.

Joel: Because the whole world listens to our show. And all of you will be listening after today. But you gotta bring it for Philly in this weekly podcast.

Chad: Represent!

Joel: I just learned the word "jawn" so I'm going to try to work it in.

Chad: This is our jawn, so we're going to try to...

Joel: I'm a little gassy after that cheesesteak though, so I gotta work that in...

Chad: Sit over there!

Joel: How we doing, Philly? We doing all right? We have some great fans in Philly.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: For those of you who don't know, I am the Cheese segment of the duo here. My name is Joel Cheesman, believe it or not, that's not my acting porn name. This is Chad, which is pretty self-explanatory. But we do a weekly podcast, couple monthly shows, we do like a Shark Tank-style start-up interview. We travel a lot and do shows and interviews that way. Anything recruiting, you want to learn more stuff, who's out there doing cool things, we like to think that our podcast is the shiz. Or the "jawn", maybe, is what I should have...

Chad: It is, it is a jawn. It's totally the jawn. So yeah, we've got a world tour this year, it's been awesome. We just got back from Portugal, and now we're in Philly, love it, I mean, it makes sense, right? Right? But...

Joel: It's better in Philly.

Chad: What's that?

Joel: It's better in Philly.

Chad: Oh yeah, so much better in Philly. I mean, we definitely want to give some shout-outs. If you've listened to our podcast, right out of the gate, we like to give what we call shout-outs to people in the industry who give us live. Or we see some cool shit happening. Oh yeah, by the way, this is an explicit podcast/presentation, so you might have to do earmuffs every now and again.

Joel: I think we're okay in Philly.

Chad: I'm just saying.

Joel: I think Philly's all right.

Chad: Just saying. Gotta do it.

Joel: Montgomery, Alabama, that shit was bad, right?.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Montgomery didn't go very well.

Chad: I don't think we're going to Montgomery, Alabama.

Joel: Yeah, and if you guys wanna shout out questions or have anything, please feel free to engage. Our show's about forty minutes, this is an hour that we have on stage, so we're bound to run out of gas. So hopefully...

Chad: He won't run out of gas. That's for sure.

Joel: Well, not that kind of gas.

Chad: That's half a cheesesteak.

Joel: So, think of questions as we go on and we'd love to engage with you guys and have more of a conversation...

Chad: Yep.

Joel: ...than us just talking at you.

Chad: So big shout-out, first and foremost, the guys who actually brought us here. Not just the Recruit Philly peeps, because they've been kicking ass, taking names, give them a big round of applause. But Emissary.AI. They are the guys, they brought us here. Without their gas money... Yeah. So if you've seen...

Joel: My twelve-year-old told me about that app, it's awesome.

Chad: Yeah. Nancy, if you could stand up and show the...

Joel: Nancy from Philly!

Chad: Yes. Nancy from Philly.

Joel: Early fan, early fan.

Chad: There it is. Chad and Cheese Podcast.

Chad: Big Emissary logo on the back.

Joel: Nancy stocked us in the early days. We were a little freaked out by it.

Chad: Yeah, so her and Ed, who's not here. Ed, what the fuck, dude?

Joel: Everyone add Zatisky, -tasky, what's his...?

Chad: Yeah, Ed Z, right? Yeah, Ed Z.

Joel: No one knows Ed? He put this thing together.

Chad: Yeah, he's part of team. Love it, Ed's actually off his... His wife is graduating from, I believe it's nursing...

Joel: High school, right?

Chad: Yes. High school. Big round of applause. For Ed's wife.

Joel: I'm so mad he wasn't here to hear that.

Chad: Oh, he'll hear it. He'll hear it.

Joel: I know he will. Love you, Ed.

Chad: Goddammit, Ed.

Chad: Patrick. Where's Patrick at? He got us the beer.

Joel: Patrick is...

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Patrick is so jawn. Thank you, dude.

Chad: Dude, yeah. Patrick is so jawn.

Chad: I need to hear stuff from up top, too. You guys just can't be lazy and go in food comas, thank you.

Joel: We've gotta raise the roof up top. I love it. Terry Baker's on his phone, dude, he's see this..

Chad: There you go. Arsenio woof woof woof.

Chad: Jesus, dude.

Chad: Mark Feffer from HCM Tech Report. He actually came down so he could meet us and actually report on this amazing event, first annual, right? First annual, right? Every year? Okay. Just making sure this wasn't a one-time go.

Joel: We won't be back, so enjoy it while we're here.

Chad: Like "fuck these guys."

Joel: By the way, saying we're from Indiana isn't very dangerous. These crazy cats from Indiana. We're gonna break shit up.

Chad: It's like stealthy.

Chad: Judge Group, and also I want to read a tweet from one of our friends, Jason Katcher. And if you don't know, and you don't listen, we hate The Ladders because it's fucking stupid. It's been around for how long...

Joel: And their CEO sucks.

Chad: I can't believe it still exists. Marc Cenedella, I know you're listening, dude, shut that shit down. Jason Katcher tweets: "The Ladders emails are like those magic birthday candles that never go out. No matter how many times I unsubscribe or mark as spam they keep on coming back." Good shit, Jason. Love it.

Joel: I see a lot of people relating to those emails.

Chad: How many people thought Ladders was like out of business, I mean like ten years ago, right?

Joel: They're not The Ladders anymore, they're just Ladders.

Chad: But if you go to

Joel: Although... Yeah if you go to, it doesn't take you to The

Ladders. So they've kind of fucked up the marketing on that one.

Chad: It takes you to, well, what you would want...

Joel: Probably a ladder store.

Chad: To buy ladders. A ladder store, right?

Joel: Which is more helpful than The Ladders, by the way.

Chad: Yeah. It doesn't make any goddamn sense. I'm going to change my name but not my URL and drive people away to buy ladders. I can't even imagine. Their marketing sucks anyway, so probably nothing.

Chad: Next events, Jobcase, we're going to be in Boston next week for Jobcase Live.

Joel: No boos for Boston? Oh, I'm impressed.

Chad: I would have thought we got some boos from Philly. Yeah, didn't get any cheers. Then we're going to Boston again for SmashFly Transform.

Chad: Ooh.

Joel: Was that for Boston or SmashFly? Who? Oh.

Chad: This is Phenom country. Okay, good call.

Joel: Phenom country.

Chad: Well, then they need to fucking invite us to their shindig or some shit, right? Oh, you did? Awesome.

Joel: She runs the show over at Phenom. I didn't know that.

Chad: I didn't know that either. It's awesome.

Joel: Screw that, she's the boss.

Chad: What's your name by the way? Jen. Jen's the boss.

Chad: And then Recfest. Who's going to London? Because there's going to be three thousand recruiters in London. We're headlining this thing. It's like the Lollapalooza of fricking recruiting events. One day, five tents, five stages, and the bar opens at noon. This is going to be ridiculous.

Joel: It'd be better if the bar's open for everybody.

Chad: The bar is open for everybody... Oh, you mean for this?

Joel: Here.

Chad: Oh, they're good.

Joel: Because Chad sounds much smarter when everyone else is drunk.

Chad: Everybody does sound smarter.

Joel: Do you guys drink Yuengling, or is that like, whack here? Whack?

Chad: It's whack.

Joel: It's not jawn, right? Okay.

Chad: It's not jawn.

Joel: Not jawn.

Joel: It's commercial time.

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Chad: It's showtime.

Chad: Okay, so we're going to jump into topics for this week. We have, over the last six months, we've talked a little bit about CareerBuilder here and there. And we have so many...

Joel: Womp womp.

Chad: Probably like fifty different contacts within CareerBuilder, not to mention Glassdoor. Just seeing what's going on...

Joel: We got insiders.

Chad: In that dumpster fire. It has now turned into, or at least we're hearing from multiple contacts, it is now turning into a dumpster in-fucking-ferno.

Joel: Watch this. Who's still using CareerBuilder in the audience? Who's using it but too ashamed to admit it.

Chad: I see one up there. I see one. Yeah, room full of people, arena. Guess what?

Joel: It's like ten years ago when you said who's still on Myspace. No one raises their hand but, they kind of were, sort of.

Chad: Friendster. I'm still on Friendster. Yeah.

Chad: So, we've actually been hearing... Getting information over the last six months about little things happening at CareerBuilder but it seems like everything's coming to a head. They're going to start selling off pieces of the business. And that, in kind of not conflicting but kind of like a range of numbers that revenues are actually

down 35 to 40 percent.

Chad: Yeah, did you hear the audible "oh"?

Joel: Ohhh.

Chad: So, it's pretty amazing as we see Apollo came in...

Joel: Yeah, does everyone know the history?

Chad: We're going to give it to you now.

Joel: So CareerBuilder acquired, a couple years ago, 2016...

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Private equity firm called Apollo who has a nice history of slashing and burning and making things profitable and selling off the pieces.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: They're doing that playbook right now.

Chad: Except for the profitability piece.

Joel: Yeah, profitability piece. Well, they keep cutting enough people, maybe they will.

Chad: It's possible.

Joel: Everyone that has been at CareerBuilder a very long time has gone. They let their CEO go about a year ago. Their new CEO is a... what did your source say? A 33-year-old finance...

Chad: Yeah, P and E... PE investor.

Joel: P.E. hack, puppet or something.

Chad: Trying to run a software company with no software experience. And that was multiple people saying, "This person does not have the experience to be able to do what's necessary." She knows how to lean up an organization. That's pretty easy, right? All you assholes are fired. But she doesn't know how to actually turn it into revenue. And that's what we're seeing from CareerBuilder, not to mention we heard so many rumblings, I think it was last year, my prediction was that either CareerBuilder or Monster was going to come back. That was so funny.

Joel: That was two years ago.

Chad: Yeah, that's two years ago. And I mean, they...

Joel: She's not really an R&D CEO.

Chad: Well, no. She slashed and burned R&D.

Joel: In fact, what's been the most innovative thing they've done in the last year?

Chad: Pokemon for jobs. Everybody know Pokemon for jobs?

Joel: Right? So you download their app and you put your camera up to downtown Philly, and they'll show you augmented reality-style, all the jobs and companies of people that are hiring. That's been the height of innovation at Career Builder in the last twelve months.

Chad: Pokemon for jobs. Yeah. So was anybody at HR Tech last year? Okay, a few people. Yeah, so had like this huge...

Joel: They were so excited.

Chad: Huge space. I think it was like, at least estimated, spent over a hundred thousand dollars. We're just not seeing CareerBuilder make smart decisions at all. And from, again, from the inside, we're hearing very soon, which is one of the reasons why we're talking about it now, because we've been hearing things, again, for the last six months, that they're actually in the process of trying to chunk up and sell off pieces of the business. And that many of the...

Joel: Probably not a ton of takers at this point.

Chad: Yeah, no. And many of the executive leadership is actually getting ready to eject as well. We've seen some very big names run. When you have companies like Broadbean and Textkernel, about five years ago, those were on-the-edge technologies to an extent, right, Distribution? But Broadbean now is pretty much what I call done-distribution. It's not programmatic, it's not focused on your needs, it's not targeted by any means. And in most cases, you can't do any type of paper performance. Right? So, it's like going back to the late nineties or early 2000s and doing the exact same thing, just pray and spray and do it over and over and over. As opposed to really be targeted and be focused.

Chad: What they have to sell off...

Joel: Quantity over quality.

Chad: We're losing great, yeah. We call that spam. So obviously the drop in revenue, you're talking about 35 percent to 40 percent prospectively, revenue. They've lost over ten thousand accounts. And again, I see a lot of head-shaking. From what I've heard...

Joel: Were any of you the account that they lost?

Chad: Yeah. From what we've heard is that even a lot of the agencies are like, "Yeah, we're kicking a lot of our clients out of CareerBuilder everyday because they're not getting the ROI." And in today's analytics-focused industry, man, that's gotta be a bitch for a company like CareerBuilder.

Joel: I'm just here to support you. I'm just the face guy.

Chad: That's some scary shit. So the funny part is, right, in my prediction two years ago, it was Monster and CareerBuilder, one of those two, they're actually going to make a charge. And this week, what happened? Monster Studios...

Joel: I'm glad you said no to drugs a couple years ago by the way.

Joel: So, Monster's on the innovation trail as well. A year ago, they announced that they were going to add videos to their job postings.

Chad: It was at HR Tech.

Joel: Yeah.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: October of last year.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: They had a hundred beta clients I believe.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: And it's only taken them a year to get it out of beta. And create Instagram for jobs, I guess is what I'm calling it. This is a company that has a new CEO, almost a year, he's a tech CEO. They have a new tech head. And the most innovation that we saw out of Monster this year was partnering with VideoMyJob to put videos on

job postings.

Chad: The big product.

Joel: That's kind of sad.

Chad: So how many of you today are actually using videos on your job descriptions? Anyone?

Joel: Or video at all.

Chad: Okay, so, very few hands raised. I mean, it's incredibly low adoption, because...

Joel: You should, haven't you guys heard all internet traffic in 2020 is going to be, like, video? You guys gotta get on TikTok immediately, is what I'm saying.

Chad: You should see him at the airport. Like thirty minutes of TikTok and he just can't get off.

Joel: Don't play like I'm the only one.

Chad: The problem we're having, that we've always had with videos, we love video, but it all comes down to adoption, and making it easy for a company to integrate these videos into their job descriptions, their websites, whatever it is. And I think that through VideoMyJob, they've been able to make it as easy as it's ever been thus far. The problem is, it's not going to do it itself, right? And until you can easily empower your people and trust your people to actually do videos that are going to be worth a shit, number one, and then also hit on all the points that you need for your brand. Because you want to make sure they're conveying the right brand experience. That's really hard, right? And I know it's easy to say, "Hey, look, we're just going to go ahead and give all of our people their phones and they're going to go out and they're going to create these videos, and then we're going to have a ton of content."

Chad: But the biggest question is, how are you going to go through the content? And can you use the content? That's the hard part, right? From my standpoint, I think that from Monster's standpoint, partnering with another company instead of trying to build, is incredibly smart. I think from a shortsighted standpoint, it's adoption. Adoption is either number one, going to be quick and easy because that's what the product is designed for, or it's going to be incredibly hard, just for the reasons that I just talked about.

Chad: You love video.

Joel: I want to talk about their shitty new ads.

Chad: Okay.

Joel: Has anyone seen the new Monster ads?

Chad: Monster, just so you know, Monster marketing guys are like curled up in fetal positions because we've been giving them shit about these things...

Joel: Are they?

Chad: They are.

Joel: Well, I assume an agency made that for them. I hope to God they didn't...

Chad: Yeah, but they're responsible.

Joel: Well, yeah, they're responsible.

Chad: Yeah, and they bought into it.

Joel: Yeah. If you haven't seen them, it's irrelevant for me to talk about. But they're really... They're shitty. They're bad. Like, if you're Monster, you roll the dice, and you say, "We're Instagram for jobs." And you can see videos from employers, and that would at least give people a reason to go to Monster and see like what are the fucking videos that they're talking about.

Chad: Yeah, yeah.

Joel: But instead, it's the same old, "Daddy, what's it like to work?"

Joel: "Well, you go to work, and your soul gets sucked out, and then you die."

Joel: Like that's basically the ad.

Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kid's going to sleep, no shit, kid's going to sleep, and the dad's walking out. And the kid says, "Daddy, what's it like to work?" And he goes into this... You want to take the kid's shoestring and belts away from him and stuff like that. This is not good, this is like suicide watch stuff. This is not... What's going on here?

Joel: It's like Super Bowl 2005 ads, that they decided to just [00:20:13].

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: And basically, it's what it feels like. It's like, these ads didn't make the cut in 2006, so let's dig 'em up and throw 'em in because we've already made 'em, and put them out there.

Chad: Remember that idea we had, back in the... Yeah, it's so shit.

Joel: Yeah, just throw that shit out.

Chad: So shit.

Chad: So, Joel is incredibly happy right now. Because we've heard, and some of you will be, Brandon's happy too. That Google Glass is actually coming back.

Joel: Crickets.

Chad: It's the stupidest shit ever, dude.

Joel: I'm a VR guy. Not necessarily a Google Glass guy.

Chad: Who said, "What is it?" There it is. See, you don't even know what Google Glass is. Tell 'em what it is.

Joel: Because you're so young you don't remember the first iteration of Google Glass.

Chad: Right. That's right.

Joel: So it was...

Chad: That's right.

Joel: Ten years ago, Google had this thing, and they go like, "We're going to put a little camera on your glasses." Oh, yeah. They didn't even have lenses. It was just like the frame part.

Chad: The frames, yeah, the frames.

Joel: So, you'd have this camera on your glasses, and the douchebag meter went through the roof, because you talk to someone with a camera on their glasses, are you recording me? What the hell's going on? So, it was like a thousand dollars to get one of these things, they dumped it. To Chad's excitement, they're relaunching Google Glass. Are they calling it Google Glass?

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: Okay.

Chad: I think it's the stupidest shit ever. But they put new frames on it. Cool frames.

Joel: Well, in their defense, it's more of an industrial... Doctors can wear it for surgeries. Industrial stuff.

Chad: So they're trying to do the Microsoft thing.

Joel: I don't think it's for the consumer.

Chad: They're trying to do the Microsoft thing.

Joel: Sure.

Chad: Okay. Has anybody seen the Microsoft heads-up display visor, which is cool as shit. And it's really awesome because it's a total visor, and it's a heads-up display,

so like you're in a cockpit. And if you have a mechanic or something like that, they can look at... It actually downloads the schematics to the glasses and you can exactly what

you should be looking for, or electronics, or things of that nature. Incredibly cool, and to be able to bring something like that VR or AR really, so augmented reality, to a segment

and make it practical, works. Unlike CareerBuilder, who's like Pokemon for jobs.

Joel: I feel like we're going towards sex robots. Is that where we're going?

Chad: Did anybody listen to...

Joel: Those weren't in the notes, were they?

Chad: No, they weren't, they weren't, but we just interviewed...

Joel: We did.

Chad: An actual interviewing robot.

Joel: Yes.

Chad: Have you guys seen this? Okay, so Tengai is a Swedish robot that...

Joel: It's made in Sweden.

Chad: It's made, yeah, well, it's a Swedish robot, it's made in Sweden, so it's a

Swedish robot.

Joel: I guess technically it's a Swedish robot.

Chad: So, about ye big.

Joel: How many girls had the Barbie bus thing...

Chad: Where you do the hair and stuff?

Joel: Where you could do Barbie's hair?

Chad: Yeah. Kind of like that size.

Joel: It's kind of like that, without the hair.

Chad: Oh yeah.

Joel: And like a screen face.

Chad: So totally, totally thought this was the creepiest thing in the world. And as you watch and you look at it...

Joel: It's pretty close.

Chad: You're like, "Oh my god, this is so creepy." But, it's being built as the unbiased interviewing system. Because it doesn't see gender, it doesn't see color, it doesn't see anything like that. And the thing that just drove me nuts was, it looks so creepy. So, we actually saw, in Portugal, and I was totally geeking out. It was one of the coolest things I've ever seen, and Adam Gordon from Candidate.ID I think encapsulated what I think will happen when this thing starts to hit interviewing rooms, is that candidates will be in there, and they'll be like this. They'll be like the robot, and they'll be like "guhhhh." Because it is so cool. You talk to it, it like tracks the person who's talking, and it like head-tilts, and there's this projection screen, it's a 3D printed face, and the face is projected from behind, so you can make different faces. And it doesn't look like a robotic mouth or anything like that. It looks really cool.

Joel: So when Chad says cool, I say cool in kind of a Swedish ABBA, IKEA, a little bit off kind of cool.

Chad: It's a little off, don't get me wrong.

Joel: It's a little weird in a Swedish kind of way.

Chad: Yeah. Don't you think candidates will love it, though? They'll be like, "Oh, this is fucking cool."

Joel: Some candidates will love it. Salespeople will not love it. Tech people will probably love it. Congratulations to them, we do a thing called Death Match, which we have four start-ups come on at a conference, TAtech, and they were one of the four.

So we're fans of theirs, we're rooting for them.

Chad: Yeah, they're innovative.

Joel: They just signed their first client.

Chad: Who else is doing a fucking interviewing robot? Anyone? Nobody? No? Yeah.

Joel: CareerBuilder's dropping Pokemon for jobs, and this little Swedish company's actually made a fucking robot to take all your jobs. And your cheesesteaks apparently.

Chad: No, just to be able to take... Who likes interviewing people? I don't like interviewing people.

Joel: Well, shockingly, recruiters are more mad about this thing than anybody else.

Chad: Really?

Joel: Which, well, you, for social media.

Chad: Yeah, well, the practicality... I think it's one of those things where you really have to experience it. And that's one of the things, you have to be in the room, and really understand it. And not to mention, if they start to make Tengai a part of the experience of being at this company, going in and having like a Tengai at the front desk, and meeting you, one of those things. So IKEA, go figure, in Sweden, and they have high turnover, they have tons of jobs, we're hoping, I know they're talking to those guys, that they'll be able to adopt and do some pilots. Though we can actually get some data around this, because we think it's entirely cool, but we've seen so many entirely cool things just crash and burn over the years, right?

Joel: In IKEA's defense, we don't really know if they have high turnover.

Chad: That's a good point.

Joel: They just might be growing.

Chad: I would say in their segment. Let's just say that.

Joel: Yes. Either way, you could agree that retail's a great venue, platform, to have a robot interviewing lots of people very quickly in an unbiased way to fill positions in a retail setting.

Chad: Yes. So it's spelled T-E-N-G-A-I. Just take a look at it.

Joel: Moving on.

Chad: Talk about Google? Okay, we're going to go into our Google segment, which is almost like a staple in our show, for god's sake.

Joel: Because people love it!

Chad: People love Google.

Joel: We see the numbers. When we talk about LinkedIn, Google, Indeed, everyone listens.

Chad: People love Google, man.

Joel: So we talk about it.

Chad: This week, another one bites the dust. And what I mean by that is, is TMP Worldwide, which you guys I'm sure know, right? They are now starting to pilot the Google talent solutions API for their job search within TalentBrew. And as we've seen...

Joel: Tell them what that is, Chad.

Chad: As we've seen, like with CareerBuilder, CareerBuilder who's been in the space for twenty years, many of these companies, even College Recruiter or what have you, who've been in the job search space for so long, have had what? They've had a shitty job search experience. Keyword, Boolean-based. I know recruiters love Boolean but I'm sorry, Boolean sucks on the search, right?

Joel: Don't you dare misspell something.

Chad: Especially when it comes to job seekers. Job seekers don't know Boolean. Right? It's really a shitty experience.

Joel: Boolean, they can't spell.

Chad: They can't spell "Boolean." Yes.

Joel: Like, what are you talking about.

Chad: Let alone "programmatic." So, from that standpoint, what most of these companies have been able to see is that Google's new search, which now powers the CareerBuilder search, Jibe search, many of the different...

Joel: Four thousand companies and job boards.

Chad: Four thousand companies and job boards. Because Google does what better than anybody else? Make money. And search. Right? They do search better than anybody else. So, most of these companies are starting to kick their search to the curb, and start to use Google's search beneath the layer. So let's say for instance the Phenoms of the world. Could be, clients would go to them and say, "Hey, we want Google search." Well that's a plug-and-play thing with an API. So they make it easy, to an extent, for companies to be able to use Google search. TalentBrew, the reason why we want to talk about it is, it's a platform that's been around for a very long time. Good, bad, or indifferent. And they now obviously are starting to use Google. The big question is, how long is it going to take until the entire recruitment search, job search, is going to be powered by Google? Four thousand sites... sites, platforms. We're talking about corporate sites like Johnson & Johnson. Johnson & Johnson, they did a case study with Google, and I believe it was Jibe, and had amazing numbers. Because the actual search is more contextual, and it's not Boolean-based.

Joel: Yeah, it's faster, it reads misspellings. It's like Google on your job board, or your company's website.

Chad: Yep.

Joel: It's very effective. We've talked to vendors that say their customer service calls have gone to zero about people calling and saying, "I can't search correctly," or "how do I search this," or "I'm not getting results." Google does all that for them. So from a customer service perspective, for vendors, it's been a real godsend for them.

Chad: How many of you have actually, or you guys have a Google power type of search behind... Anyone, anyone? No, one back that, okay.

Joel: Who are you with, ma'am?

Chad: A group.

Joel: Just a direct employer.

Chad: Dubin!

Joel: Dubin!

Chad: There it is. Thanks, Isabel. Isabel from JobAdX everyone. So yeah, so Google is also moving into many different facets of what we know. And one of them being Google for Jobs, which I'm sure most of you know about. Show of hands? Google for Jobs?

Joel: Please say you all know that Google is indexing jobs and sticking it to Indeed. Like, hard.

Chad: Google for Jobs experience isn't going great in some areas. They just launched in Germany.

Joel: Ja. Nicht gut.

Chad: Nicht gut. It's also, we're starting to see some spammy kind of things happening here in the U.S. Jobiak, which is a company that helps companies, helps hiring companies get their jobs into Google for Jobs, actually did research on...

Joel: Is it

Chad: Something like that.

Joel: If you're wondering if your jobs are on Google, I think the URL is You can throw in a URL and see if they actually are or not.

Chad: So Jobiak did research over 2.5 million jobs in 500 different cities, and it actually showed that 40 percent of those jobs required two to four steps before job seekers could actually apply. Now the promise of Google for Jobs was what?

Joel: Efficiency.

Chad: Getting job seekers to the job ASAP. Getting them directly to the job so that they... Well, first and foremost, to be able to use Google search, to help them, a better search, just like everybody else is going to, a better search but on Google, to find great jobs. But at that point, it's user experience. Because Google doesn't give a shit about your employers. They don't. They care about the user. The end user actually doing the job search. Because if they do that, and they do a great job, what's going to happen? You're going to pay money to be able to boost your jobs. Right? It makes sense. I don't care about what employers want, that's just dumb, because the experience matters. The problem is they're screwing the experience up right now. Because there's way too many steps. And, how many companies and job boards, are actually using Google for Jobs?

Joel: A lot.

Chad: A shit ton. Yeah.

Joel: Now, in fairness to Google, they're still relatively new at this. They've shown in the past that they've fucked search up before. And they've eventually figured it out.

Chad: To an extent.

Joel: So let's not bury them just yet.

Chad: I think... Don't want to bury Google because the first thing that we're seeing from Google now that we didn't see before. Who remembers Google Base? Which was just a literal piece of shit. That had no focus on any type of revenues whatsoever. These products that they're putting out today, like the ones that are actually powering the job sites and whatnot, there's a moneymaking model behind the API. So that gives us all hope that they're really going to focus on getting this right, getting all the spammy shit out of there.

Joel: Yeah, and here's the thing, Google has more competition for ad dollars, now than they've ever had before, so money's going towards social media. Amazon's getting into the game, so if you look at quarterly reports from Google, their last report, they took about a ten percent haircut on their stock price because the number of clicks and the dollars they're getting for those clicks are going down. So Google's in a position where like, okay, how do we make more money in the most quickest efficient manner. So they're verticalizing searches, right? They're doing travel and whatever, cars, and apartments.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: And jobs is obviously a component of that. And with G Suite, which means your email's being powered by Google, et cetera...

Chad: Who uses G Suite?

Joel: They can easily now integrate the job and the hiring stuff...

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: To G Suite, which we're starting to see, which I think we'll probably talk about a little bit today. That's a fairly short bridge for them to cross, to where then they can start making money. Which, by the way, their ATS product is a revenue generator, their API, which we just talked about, is a revenue generator. And eventually, as Chad said, their job search component will be a revenue generator as well.

Chad: Yeah, and there are other products that are gonna pop out as well. But in Germany, they just launched Google for Jobs, and believe it or not, a good portion of the actual job descriptions that are out there, are in PDF. Yeah. So the experience in Germany pretty much sucks right now, because Google's not being able to index.

Joel: Does that stand for Pretty Darn Fantastic?

Chad: Pretty... Yeah, no.

Joel: No.

Chad: So, the actual... They're trying to figure it out, right? And they're trying to figure it out globally. And then, all of this happens, and then we have a hack from your favorite.

Joel: Yeah, PPC. Porn, Pills, and Casinos, have taken over Google for Jobs in Germany apparently.

Joel: It's commercial time.

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Chad: It's showtime.

Chad: There was actually a report put out that there was a porn site that started to hijack certain companies. And what would happen is, if you know Google for Jobs, you do a search and they allow you to apply with different mechanisms, right? So you have the corporate careers site. If you posted to a CareerBuilder or whatever, Glassdoor, then you could apply through that mechanism. Well, what happened was, this porn site piggybacked on that, and they had a button at the end, where it would take you directly to a porn site. So, again, Google's going to figure this out. But this is...

Joel: You're all thinking, "Damn, that's smart."

Chad: It was less than twenty-four hours, it was down. Go figure. Any other company would have probably taken about a week to be able to figure it out.

Joel: They're still on CareerBuilder in Germany, I think. And the emails from The Ladders are still going out for porn jobs.

Chad: Yeah. But, yeah, no, thanks to Alex Chukovski, because we can't see...

Chukovski I think? In Germany, because we can't see German jobs over here.

Joel: Nein.

Chad: So we're getting a lot of intel from across the pond. But it's important to understand all these things that are happening from a tech standpoint, to be able to level that out because we have organization, or we serve organizations, or we're a vendor to organizations, that are not just in this country. Pretty important. So we have to be apprised of all that stuff.

Joel: And there's a good chance some of you hire globally. Right?

Chad: And if you do hire globally...

Joel: Something to think about.

Chad: Yeah, and if you do hire globally, who loves their applicant tracking system? I don't see... Not one hand.

Joel: Are there any ATS vendors in the audience? 'Cause we're about to offend you if you are.

Chad: Yeah. Probably already offended a bunch of people already. So we actually had, and there will be a podcast that dives deeper into this, we had an interview...

Joel: Teaser.

Chad: With one of very first Enterprise customers of Hire by Google. Does everybody know what Hire by Google is? It is Google's applicant tracking system that was an SMB, small-medium-sized business model, that, guess what they did really quick? They went to Enterprise.

Joel: BigCo.

Chad: Quick. So they're now an Enterprise platform. And we were able to sit down with one of these organizations, which is on the small side of Enterprise, three thousand employees, and talk to them about the case study that they pulled the other, with Google.

Joel: I was prepared for her to be a fan. I was not prepared for her to be as much of a fan as she was.

Chad: A super fan.

Joel: She did stop short of saying, "I love my ATS." Because I said, "Are you willing to go on record as the first employer ever..."

Chad: You're ruining the whole podcast, stop it.

Joel: No, no, there's lot more good stuff in there. "Are you on to go on record as the first employer in history to love their ATS?" And she said, "I like it a lot." If you want to know the problem she had with it, you'll have to listen. Was that good?

Chad: Yeah, that's better, that's better.

Joel: Okay. That's my teaser. But loved it. There were G Suite users, which I think is a huge, huge plus for Google.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: They're gonna get into those million-plus companies globally that are using it.

Chad: Oh yeah, yeah.

Joel: And it just syncs up well. She talked at length about the scheduling syncing up, that it was sort of one platform. And if you listen to our podcast, you know that we talk a lot about Microsoft and LinkedIn and Google, and to a lesser degree recently, Facebook, trying to sort of a one platform for all your employment needs. And I would say, after our interview...

Chad: Nah.

Joel: I know you disagree with it, but like, she was all in on one place for all this stuff.

Chad: Yeah. I think there are many companies that could be, to an extent. The problem is, is like the experience, the experience is very dry, you know. They are many different aspects that companies need to focus on when they're talking about brand. Talking about being able to nurture individuals. The guy who was on stage earlier, said "junk", where's he at? What does "junk" mean when you're talking about a human being?

Joel: Yeah, we love following charts and graphs, guys, because we look a lot better after following them.

Chad: I have one slide, that's all I need. So yeah, on the Hire by Google side of the house, and this is a thing that really kind of stoked my flames per se, is that they had 50 percent greater adoption by hiring managers.

Joel: Now who's ruining the podcast?

Chad: Well, I'm not going to tell them why.

Joel: Okay.

Chad: I'm not going to tell you why, you have to listen. But they had 50 percent higher adoption rate by hiring managers. When's the last time you had... It's not easy to get a hiring manager to do anything, right? I mean, it literally, it sucks trying to get... Can you please talk to this candidate, can you please schedule this candidate that you want to actually fill this position for god's sakes?

Joel: And by the way, if they're more engaged, guess what? The candidates have a better experience.

Chad: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, when we start talking about these big names, which I think is amazing, and Joel always talks about this meteor that hit our recruitment industry kind of landscape when Microsoft spent 26.2 buh-buh-buh-billion dollars on LinkedIn. And that woke up a lot of fucking people, right? Not just Google, not just all these big names, but also, take a look at all these start-ups that are out there today? Some of these start-ups are just flat-out amazing. Some of them might not know the practical way to actually use their platform, but let's say for instance, like TextRecruit and iCIMS. We were actually at iCIMS Influence, and one of the clients of TextRecruit was actually showing TextRecruit the best ways, more practical ways, to utilize their platform. It was incredibly powerful.

Chad: And again, I'm going to say, if you're not using texting to recruit, you're dumb. But at the end of the day, when you look at this, there are definitely different ways that you can use these products to make your job so much easier. Not take the job away, but so many mundane tasks that you have to do, that do not have to be done today.

Joel: And don't forget exciting start-ups like Chad and Cheese sponsors Emissary and JobAdX here in the audience as well today. They're sort of the mammals that are surviving the asteroid, and will be the next big companies to talk about.

Chad: Yeah, well, and it's forcing all these companies, now, and again, going back to the iCIMS and the TextRecruit, which I think is awesome for like an Emissary because it's like, look at that fucking validation. Then, you have Canvas and Jobvite. That's validation number two. If you don't know that you should be text to recruit then c'mon guys, look at all the validation that's out there. But, it's forcing...

Joel: Commercials aside, if you're not using text messaging or messaging to connect with candidates, you're really shit.

Chad: Yeah, yeah, but no, this isn't commercial. If you take a look at what's happening. They're not buying these companies just for the hell of it. They're not spending millions of dollars, Jobvite didn't spend millions of dollars for the hell of it. Neither did iCIMS. They are trying to battle back, to an extent, what's happening with Google, what's happening with Microsoft, and they have to do something. And these are some of the things they're actually doing, so yeah.

Joel: If they can't be Coke or Pepsi, they might as well be Dr. Pepper, Dr. Pepper or Fanta, right?

Chad: Yeah, yeah. So what applicant tracking system has a double-digit growth...

Joel: Market share?

Chad: Yeah, market share, that's it.

Joel: Maybe one or two, right?

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: And they're quickly going to single digits.

Chad: Yeah. Single digits. So that means, what do they have to do? They have to offer you better products. Not to mention, it makes it easier for you that most of these

companies, like we're getting ready to talk about...

Joel: Restless Bandit.

Chad: Restless, that's it.

Joel: Yeah, I knew what you meant.

Chad: Restless.

Joel: They're relentless, and restless.

Chad: Relentless so much that they got acquired.

Joel: Yeah.

Chad: These organizations need to be embedded in your everyday process.

Because who needs another platform for your recruiters to go into? I mean, seriously.

Joel: Are you sure?

Chad: It's like they're bouncing from here... You don't need that. You need a

process, you need a simple process.

Joel: They're competing with TikTok for god's sakes.

Chad: Exactly. So talk about, you know more about the...

Joel: Relentless, restless, restless bandit.

Chad: Restless. Restless Bandit. I think I like relentless better.

Joel: Any Restless Bandit users out there? Any hardcore recruiters out there?

Chad: Yeah, no, that's why.

Joel: This is interesting. So, I would say we were fairly high on a trend about a year ago of bringing back the dead from your resume database, right? So, companies had these resume databases, they had contacts that were years and years old, if not maybe decades-plus old.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: And they were just sitting there. So there were companies that came out, like Crowded, Restless Bandit, that their goal was to go in algorithmically, see the jobs you currently have, and say, "Okay, who were your B players that didn't quite make it, let's get them back into the loop and get them activated, and get them back into applying for jobs and sort of reinvigorate them."

Joel: It's commercial time.

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Chad: It's showtime.

Joel: Crowded, who we were both high on, has had some issues, aside from the technology, with sort of a shyster CEO. They've sort of gone by the wayside. And Restless Bandit was another sort of hot company back in the day that raised about ten million dollars to do this sort of thing. And this past week, they have sort of quietly gone away. They've been acquired or partnered with trustaff, a healthcare staffing company out of Cincinnati, which is a really weird acquisition or merger or partnership that these guys have gone. But if you go to Restless Bandit today, there's no, like, get a free demo, there's no "Contact Us" that can get you a salesperson on the call. So, as far as I'm concerned, there's been no public announcement. I've made a few phone calls that have gone sort of unanswered. But it sounds like they're sort of gone.

Joel: By the way, the founder of Restless Bandit was the founder of Bright, which if you remember back in the day, they were acquired by LinkedIn for a bucket of money, so lightning did not strike twice with this guy. Restless Bandit has, I would say, gone by the wayside. He'll probably go and do something else in a year after his contract is up to be with the company. But I don't know if this buries the whole "bring your resumes back from the dead" thing or what it does, because we're seeing with Google, Google will say, "Okay, here's a job you're posting, here are current resumes that you have. Go contact those people on a one-on-one basis." Whereas Restless Bandit was sort of, let's just spam everybody and hope that we get the algorithm right and the jobs actually match what they're doing now, and hope that they come back.

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: But I tend to think what Google and maybe LinkedIn and sort of like... "Hey, post a job, and here's who's currently good, that's in your database, go contact them" is a better model than just Jobster 2.0 and let's spam everybody and hope that ten percent come back to the top.

Chad: Just stamping on the grave...

Joel: The graves of dot coms.

Chad: Jason Goldberg.

Joel: Yes.

Chad: Yes.

Joel: No one knows who that is.

Chad: If you take a look at, again, Hire by Google, automatically when you post a rec, it jumps into your applicant tracking system, and it surfaces candidates that it believes actually fit the rec. One of the issues that we've had over the years, and I know you guys know this, because you don't use your resume databases in your applicant tracking systems because the search sucks, is that how much money have you actually spent in building that database that you never go back to? Hundreds of millions of dollars for just one company in some cases. How many times have you bought that same candidate over and over and over and over? We've gotten incredibly lazy and unfortunately because of our tech being dilapidated and old, it hasn't worked.

Chad: But now we have, again, the opportunity to be able to partner with the Googles of the world. Their system, automatically, again, does this. Then you have all these different platforms like the Restless Bandits of the world, the Uncommons of the world, the Entelos of the world, that if you can get integrated into your applicant tracking system so you don't have to go into another platform, you can start to utilize all that money that you spent over the years. And stop this active outreach, at least the amount of money that you're spending on active outreach, and really focus on first, primarily passive outreach into your database. And then, starting to message them to see if they're interested.

Chad: At that point, what happens, they apply to the job, magic! Right? So these are the things that, again, we're seeing in the industry that we really need companies to start driving. These are great platforms. In many cases, the companies do know, or they don't know, the best route. You guys don't need another platform to jump into. But you do need to be more cost-effective. Because who's getting more money for recruiting this year? Right? Nobody's getting more. Budget's are getting tighter, and all that other fun stuff, but we need to hire more people. They're in your database. You have the tools for that.

Chad: Thanks.

Joel: You guys have been awesome.

Chad: Thanks to Emissary.

Joel: Thank you, guys. Let the world hear Philly!

Chad: Thanks, guys.

Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors, because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit

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