Blue Waves, a $6.3B Binance Hack, & Fake Job Numbers?
Midterm Hangovers, Binance Crypto Heists & The Gout Files
Hope is apparently back or maybe Mo just drank eight lattes.
This week on HR’s Most Dangerous Podcast, Chad, Joel, JT, and Mo unpack the political earthquake that flipped statehouses, dethroned Susan Collins, and finally stopped the endless political spam texts. But while Democrats celebrate and Elon licks his half-billion-dollar wounds, the gang asks the real questions: will consumer confidence revive, or are we just papering over mass tech layoffs, fake jobs, and ICE raids gutting local economies?
Along the way, we dive into:
Binance's Billion-Dollar Interview Trap
The "Jobs Nuance" Police
Who’d You Rather: Plato or Roleo
Throw in a heartfelt tribute to Coach Cheesman, an unexpected dive into Civil War hangings and marital gout chat, and two groan-worthy dad jokes and you’ve got an episode you can't afford to skip.
Tune in, pour some free bourbon, and remember: PMA.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Maureen Wiley Clough (00:04.981)
Just tell me when to go. Okay, I'll go last. Great. Perfect.
Chad Sowash (00:07.114)
you got us.
Joel Cheesman (00:07.624)
You'll go last, Mo. Here we go.
JT O'Donnell (00:07.73)
Okay.
Chad Sowash (00:14.86)
Chad Sowash (00:20.726)
Really like that. So that's like a colored easy better money.
Joel Cheesman (00:35.818)
yeah, it's ten PM. Do you know where your podcasters are? Hey boys and girls, it's the Chat and Cheese podcast. I'm your co host, Joel Blue Nami Cheesman.
Chad Sowash (00:45.324)
This is Chad Payne voted on Tuesday, so Wash.
Maureen Wiley Clough (00:47.817)
Ha.
JT O'Donnell (00:54.012)
And I'm JT. Stop saying the quiet part out loud, O'Donnell.
Maureen Wiley Clough (00:58.473)
And I'm Maureen, aka Mo. Is this hope and joy I'm feeling? Wiley Clef. Yeah. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (01:03.9)
We do tent clear.
Joel Cheesman (01:04.318)
And about eight lattes from the look on your face. on this week's episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, feeling blue, feeling icy, and who'd you rather? Let's do this.
Chad Sowash (01:09.715)
All magic was two step and
Joel Cheesman (01:20.362)
Too bad there's not much news going on, guys. Too much not not a lot going on, unfortunately.
Chad Sowash (01:20.709)
I've never seen Mo so happy. I've never seen Mo so happy.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:22.261)
Ha ha ha ha
JT O'Donnell (01:23.023)
No.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:26.335)
Yeah, I'm I'm doing okay today. So it's the light of a clear blue morning today.
Joel Cheesman (01:31.122)
What what could it be in the news cycle that's got you so excited, Mo?
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:34.387)
know, the s saving of our democracy, the preservation of hope and joy. And yeah, yeah. I just I don't know, man. I I couldn't be happier.
Chad Sowash (01:37.851)
that could be something. That could be something.
Joel Cheesman (01:39.902)
The holding of the institutions. Yes.
Chad Sowash (01:46.646)
Well, I I think I think it's important that the kids out there understand if they don't, if they if they haven't, they've been locked in a closet for a day or a week. let's get to some results here, kids. So in in that in the house, the Dems flipped twenty-nine seats and took control with five or shit, two hundred and fifty-eight seats. in the Senate, Dems have fifty-four seats, Republicans have
Joel Cheesman (01:55.956)
Fiatal position.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:58.806)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Sowash (02:13.878)
fift 44 with two seats still uncalled that's Mississippi and Alaska El Said wins Michigan Hamilton wins Kansas the first Democrat since nineteen thirty two Jackson kicks Susan's Collins ass in Maine yeah we're just talking about that JT let's talk about Georgia Osof in Georgia who's
More than likely gonna go be running for president in in 2028. Keisha Lance Bottoms as governor in Georgia. Then there's Texas, big Texas. Tal Rico beat Paxton. What an asshole. First Democrat, first first Democrat since 1988. And what's what's also nuts, we'll get right to that in a second, Chisma. But Gina Hinahoza beat Greg Abbott to become the governor of Texas. So
Joel Cheesman (02:56.307)
That was nuts.
Maureen Wiley Clough (03:12.043)
So crazy.
Chad Sowash (03:13.172)
Yeah, and then you know, then you've got Amy Acton, who was the governor of Ohio after kicking Vivek Ramasami's fucking piece of shit ass. Anyway, anyway, anyway. So the in the s in the Senate races, Iowa flipped, Kansas flipped, Maine flipped, North Carolina flipped, South Carolina flipped, and Texas flipped. So I'm gonna stop there. Thoughts?
Joel Cheesman (03:18.408)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (03:18.507)
Thank God. Ugh what an asshole.
Maureen Wiley Clough (03:36.481)
Unreal Unreal Just I'm just elated.
Joel Cheesman (03:39.474)
I I ha I have I have four thoughts if you'll if you'll if you'll yeah if you'll if you'll yeah. So so my first thought is like America won last night. I live with I'm I'm married to a Canadian. my my work wife lives in Europe and I hear on ongoing basis how awful America is and how bad it is. And I I always say like the institutions are gonna hold.
Maureen Wiley Clough (03:44.413)
Ha ha
Chad Sowash (03:45.58)
Is that like your foreskin, your four thoughts?
Joel Cheesman (04:08.605)
The the separation of powers, like it's we've been through worse, like it's gonna be okay. And this was one of those it's gonna be okay moments. And you couldn't have this in Russia, you can't have this in China, you can't have this in a lot of countries in the world. Our institutions held. Who knew that a bunch of old white guys back in the eighteenth century were gonna have such an impact on our lives today? Number two, this was not a big thumbs up to the democratic agenda.
This was people sick and tired, I think, of being sick and tired. Sick and tired of whether it's you name your issue, fill in the blank. this was like, we're not going for this. This isn't who we are. We're not playing this anymore. so it's the Democrats have been handed a gift. What they do with that gift is up to them. They need to have a nice balance of like, let's go after Hegseth, let's go after all the knuckleheads in the administration, but also like, let's put forth
legislation that Trump can veto that are like nonpartisan, like let's let's ban stock trading in Congress. How about that? Let's have let's have a minimum wage. Let's have an increase in minimum wage. Like there are a lot of things that they can do to be the common sense party and the party of the middle. number three, I want to look at this a little bit from a business perspective. I think that gridlock, it's consistency. Businesses are going to know what they're in for. They know like the tariff thing is going to chill a little bit. They know like
Chad Sowash (05:13.492)
That's easy. Hello. Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (05:14.586)
Hm.
Joel Cheesman (05:35.069)
Things aren't gonna happen and they can build their business strategies around that. For the last two years, I think businesses have frozen shit up. We don't know what's going on. So let's not just do anything. So at least now maybe the rules of the road will be more clear. And number four, Chad, I know you employ you and you've left you've left America, but this this fell down into the local races. So where I live, which is not Democrat at all, and Indiana but in general is not, our congressperson.
Victoria Sparts, who's Republican Trumper, she got ousted. I we have a new state senator. It was an open seat, but it was a Republican seat forever. And we have a new state representative, all of them being Democrats. So this wasn't just the national level. This flowed into the the state level. So it's it's a big deal. It's a huge, huge night. That's those are my four takeaways.
Chad Sowash (06:06.434)
Ow.
Chad Sowash (06:15.531)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (06:26.206)
It's a big it's a big deal, ladies. What what you got?
JT O'Donnell (06:30.174)
I'm just happy that my phone isn't gonna blow up anymore. I I mean, it's already hard in election season to watch commercial after commercial where they're just crazy what they do to, you know, to slander one another. But the the texting at the end, it was like five every 15 minutes. So to see a quiet phone this morning was really nice, I have to say. before we went live on the show, I did love your billion dollar idea. Apparently you stole it, but I think you should mention it to the world and see if the Chad and Cheese folks.
Maureen Wiley Clough (06:39.508)
we can have
Joel Cheesman (06:47.369)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (06:57.597)
I don't think we stole it. I think I think we were doing an interview and it just it's sort of evolved into this. So our our idea is you go you go vote early, vote early and you get a little QR code or like a little coupon code to opt out of all the information, all the ads everywhere. Yeah, we'd we'd have the voting we'd have the voting done by September. We we'd have it all done.
JT O'Donnell (06:59.686)
You don't you think it's original? It's it's genius, gentlemen. It's genius.
Chad Sowash (06:59.852)
Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (07:13.168)
I I would love that. I would love that.
Chad Sowash (07:15.07)
On your TV, your phone, all the stuff. Easily. Will you imagine how many people would vote? Jesus. Huh? Huh?
JT O'Donnell (07:17.892)
Yeah. Yeah. For for me Yeah, that's the thing. It's amazing. Locally
Maureen Wiley Clough (07:23.288)
It would be crazy. I know. I'm so sick of my phone blowing up. It it's gonna be great. Have some peace and quiet, man. But top top. Top.
JT O'Donnell (07:28.038)
Yeah, definitely.
Joel Cheesman (07:29.863)
Well, when you're a pro voice on LinkedIn chat like our ladies here are, I mean it's it's enough that you've got to deal with LinkedIn messages all day and now politicians are out there coming at you.
Chad Sowash (07:33.68)
yeah.
It's it's crazy. It's crazy. Well ch
JT O'Donnell (07:38.915)
Yeah. Yeah. No, locally it was good though. I had, you know, I split my time. Obviously, I live in New Hampshire, but I do spend time in Maine. So Susan Collins, 30 years as a senator, out, you know, that was a big out gone. And the first openly gay senator in Chris Pappas. He's been a lifelong politician in New Hampshire, building his servant leadership. so those were significant events. But I'm not gonna lie, I'm glad it's over. It's just a lot in the end there. You're just done with it.
Joel Cheesman (07:49.395)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (07:54.492)
Awesome. Awesome.
Joel Cheesman (07:55.335)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (07:55.516)
Amazing.
Maureen Wiley Clough (08:01.82)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Sowash (08:03.681)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (08:04.644)
let's circle bit a little bit more on business. A couple of things I wanna get your everyone's take on. Number one is Elon Musk slash data centers. What happens there? And then the other thing is the billionaire tax got voted down in California. Any takes on those from a business perspective?
Maureen Wiley Clough (08:07.434)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (08:13.49)
dear, huge.
JT O'Donnell (08:14.341)
wow.
Maureen Wiley Clough (08:22.762)
Well, I love seeing these tech bros get the throwdown. I love that they thought that they could buy us off. I love that they thought that their their money would just continue them allowing to just go and do whatever they wanted to do. I it's so fantastic. I know, absurd, absurd. So I'm so thrilled to see a billionaire lose so hugely in in having put all that money behind an election. And I mean all these all bigly, bigly. I I mean all of these tech brogarchs, I mean, they all just
Chad Sowash (08:34.578)
Almost half a billion from Elon.
Joel Cheesman (08:36.115)
Billion dollars in Texas, yeah.
Chad Sowash (08:45.836)
Bigly.
Maureen Wiley Clough (08:52.874)
Just knelt down at the altar of Trump from the beginning of this term. And to see the repudiation of that is just it's amazing. I hope that they'll have a little bit of humility and stop thinking that, you know, they can just get whatever they want by throwing money at things. it's it's astounding. And I think this moment is so huge when it comes to AI regulation. I mean, the people have spoken really. Like they don't want these data centers everywhere. They want some, some
Joel Cheesman (08:55.304)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (08:55.446)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (09:00.032)
Yeah, we I'll two is just a research.
Joel Cheesman (09:07.71)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (09:19.806)
rigor behind what's actually happening with these AI companies. And I'm just I'm that's one of the best things about this election for me is recognizing that the people are not just going to continue to be held at the will of these like eight wannabe trillionaires when it comes to this stuff. I'm thrilled.
Joel Cheesman (09:21.545)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (09:24.704)
We could run a far pick one of them up and then we came.
Chad Sowash (09:35.212)
Joel had four things. I have one thing. this election isn't about who voted, it's about what voted on Tuesday. Pain at the gas pump voted, pain at the grocery store, pain of housing costs, pain housing costs, pain of doctor's office visits, pain of unemployment or underemployment, pain of low wages, pain of
Joel Cheesman (09:36.627)
We didn't fall for the banana and the tailpipe, Chad.
Maureen Wiley Clough (09:38.677)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (09:43.401)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (10:03.113)
Uh-huh.
Chad Sowash (10:04.422)
Ice raids, pain of watching billions of dollars spent on new wars, and pain of fucking reflecting pools taking priorities over the rest of that pain. So that pain voted on Tuesday. One of my favorite one my favorite Rocky quotes.
Maureen Wiley Clough (10:13.812)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (10:29.992)
Isn't it?
Chad Sowash (10:30.742)
Pain baby. That's what voted.
Joel Cheesman (10:31.443)
Chad, I if you remember this. Matt our our friend Matt Lavery, God rest his soul, in a prediction show, he played that as sort of his prediction. so when you when you when you added that to the show media files, I was like, I gotta wear the jersey. So I'm wearing the Matt Lavery honorary jersey. just just for that, Chad. Appreciate that.
Chad Sowash (10:35.104)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (10:52.807)
I love it.
Chad Sowash (10:53.292)
I I think I think a hundred percent when we're talking about the economy, that people, I mean companies and people have no clue what was going on, chaos. Now we have stability. Stability also can translate into confidence. Confidence goes into spending. So there's there's a lot behind that. And that's at the local level too, right? So, you know, I I I'm very hopeful, much like Mo, very hopeful.
Joel Cheesman (11:06.055)
Uh-huh.
Joel Cheesman (11:12.328)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (11:21.085)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (11:22.304)
That this can turn into confidence and it can actually be consumer confidence. Cause our consumer confidence in sa index has been shit since Trump has taken office.
Joel Cheesman (11:29.149)
Yeah. Wasn't the the gerrymandering thing a surprise? Like they they they hyped up all these districts gerrymandered, they're gonna go Republican and they didn't. It was like s there were so many surprises last night.
Maureen Wiley Clough (11:30.112)
Pretty bad.
Maureen Wiley Clough (11:34.573)
yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (11:38.001)
It's amazing.
JT O'Donnell (11:39.75)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (11:40.48)
Well, I yeah, but but the thing is when you have this much pain, I don't know if you want me to go through the list or again or not, but if you go through this much pain, you can't fucking gerrymander that much pain, dude. You can gerrymander some of it, but not all of it. And there's just so much built up pain in the US right now for for most Americans.
Joel Cheesman (11:44.637)
Yeah. Pain and anger. Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (11:46.132)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (11:58.908)
Uh-huh. Word word of a little bit of cautionary tail though. Trump has been embarrassed domestically. Do you I I fear that he's gonna his rage is going in international. Like if if you're a listener in Europe or Asia, I I think he lays vengeance into the rest of the world if he can't do it in America.
JT O'Donnell (11:59.869)
Mm.
Chad Sowash (12:18.954)
He's gonna double down on crazy. He's gonna double down on crazy. I don't know where the crazy's gonna be. I think it could be everywhere because he he can't focus. So I think it's gonna be everywhere.
Maureen Wiley Clough (12:19.136)
I was worried about that. Have you
Joel Cheesman (12:20.691)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (12:21.798)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (12:27.744)
I don't know, man. I mean, his early responses have been pretty tempered. I was shocked. He was just like, man, if I'd been on the ballot, it would have been different. Wait a minute, you told us all to vote as though you were, and we did. But like he seemed kind of like, okay, I'm gonna work with the Democrats, which was just a completely new tune for that guy. So I don't know. Yeah, I know that one was like, what? Yeah. So of course it wasn't him. Right?
Joel Cheesman (12:33.777)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (12:45.725)
Yeah. Greg Greg Abbott is a rhino. That's why he lost. Like I just I couldn't believe
Chad Sowash (12:49.356)
Yeah yeah. It wasn't him. It wasn't him. It wasn't him. No. These are just bad candidates. If you I mean, he wasn't talking about Ken Paxton's ass, was he? No, he wasn't. No, he wasn't.
Joel Cheesman (12:53.246)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (12:57.832)
Even though I picked him. Actually yeah, yeah, he yeah. That was the one ass he didn't talk about in the last couple of weeks. Un unbelievable. So humiliating.
Joel Cheesman (13:02.792)
No.
my god, the ass talk and the the pool. The pool was the most bizarre thing I've seen in my lifetime. That was so wild. I was like, here comes the five thousand dollar check talk, here comes the whatever, and it was the pool. Yeah, wild.
Maureen Wiley Clough (13:15.545)
my god.
Chad Sowash (13:17.568)
Didn't happen. Did not happen.
Maureen Wiley Clough (13:18.356)
But maybe he got all his billions for himself and his family and now he's ready to just ride off into the sunset. Maybe that's it. Like maybe he will just bow down. Who knows?
Chad Sowash (13:26.048)
Do you think he thinks that's actually going to happen when he's out of office? I mean, because they they I he was president, I get it, but everybody around him, is he just gonna have like literally a a a Bible fat sticks thick stack of pardons before he leaves? Could be. Could be, yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (13:31.463)
I don't know, it's delusional, so.
Maureen Wiley Clough (13:43.956)
Probably. Probably. I would I would count on it. But yeah, I mean I honestly that's kind of probably the best case scenario is that he he just like walks off with his billions, which is so gross, but
Joel Cheesman (13:47.889)
I don't know.
Joel Cheesman (13:52.05)
I think I think we are so ready for like some some semblance of calm. I mean when when the whole Nixon thing happened, I mean Ford came in and pardoned Nixon and just like was said, let's move on from this. So I I could see whoever's next president says, let's just say goodbye to Trumpism and MAGA and let's move forward.
Maureen Wiley Clough (13:58.666)
Dude.
Chad Sowash (13:59.557)
I did.
Chad Sowash (14:12.776)
See, I'm on the other side. I'm on the other side. I think if we would have hanged Jefferson Davis on the White House lawn, this Confederate bullshit, all of this stuff would not be happening today. that's the problem that I think we don't take it. And again, we I don't think we should hang him. Don't I didn't say that. I'm just talking about Jefferson Davis. He was a traitor, along with his generals. but in this case, I mean, he he deserves some type of ramifications. So just to allow them to walk off into the sunset like Nixon.
is not a fucking answer because the the next one's gonna be worse than Trump.
Maureen Wiley Clough (14:45.0)
Yeah, you're probably right.
Joel Cheesman (14:48.317)
I did not have Jefferson Davis on my bingo card for today's show chat. We j we just lost everyone under twenty nine or maybe sixty nine on the show. I don't know.
Maureen Wiley Clough (14:48.404)
Ha ha.
Maureen Wiley Clough (14:52.192)
Ha ha.
Chad Sowash (14:57.064)
Yeah. Do some fucking work, kids. It's called history. Jesus Christ. That's why they that's why they come to the Chad and Cheese.
Maureen Wiley Clough (15:00.64)
Ha ha ha.
Joel Cheesman (15:03.165)
I don't like work, Chad. I don't like work. I just wanna AI it. I just wanna AI it, Chad. I just wanna AI it. All right. are we ready to move on from the election?
Maureen Wiley Clough (15:04.81)
Get off my lawn.
Chad Sowash (15:11.596)
Wait a minute.
Joel Cheesman (15:15.875)
Okay. No, okay, that's just history lesson. History lesson. Well
Chad Sowash (15:17.172)
Nope, that's I just gave my history lesson. There you go.
Maureen Wiley Clough (15:21.44)
And and actually no, not really. I wanna bask a little bit more, but continue. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (15:24.549)
Okay. All right. I I'll I'll give you I'll give you a shout out history lesson combo, Chad, for you. it sounds like all of you are gonna bypass your shout outs and give me the stage, give me some runway, to celebrate my father for a little bit. some of you know that our friends on Facebook or other places lost my dad a couple weeks ago, to just old age really. He was eighty six, had dementia for a while.
Chad Sowash (15:24.908)
Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Chad Sowash (15:30.924)
Yes.
Chad Sowash (15:36.225)
Yes, sir.
Joel Cheesman (15:52.69)
Chad knows this more intimately than anyone, but trips to the ER, like there were a lot of things that had been happening that led to this. It was not a sudden passing. But in many ways, the election and sort of the American story, he really lived it. born in nineteen thirty nine to to Elmer and Mildred Cheesman in Terre Haute, Indiana. his father had a third grade education.
Chad Sowash (16:17.76)
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
Joel Cheesman (16:19.653)
his mother graduated high school, but was a homemaker as you were back back then. he has a sister and a brother. He played baseball, really embraced sports. he was part of a Babe Ruth League Little League World Series team in 1955. he was the first of his family to go to college. He was the first to graduate college. he got an MBA. He was a coach most all of his life, really, track cross-country football.
he was an athletic director for a short period, worked at the University of Montana. he ran 10 marathons in his life. He ran 15 or so mini marathons in his life. He made an just an amazing contribution and impact on hundreds, if not thousands, of young people in his coaching career. He still contacted from past players who thank him for the impact that he made on their lives. His, his, his phrase that he always used to
to say was PMA, which meant positive mental attitude. So he always preached PMA. every birthday card, every Christmas card at the end of it had PMA. My sister is going to get a PMA tattoo in mirroring his his his autograph from from a Christmas card that she has. So a life well lived really an American story came from nothing made a an impact on many, many lives.
Chad Sowash (17:35.815)
Awesome. Awesome.
Maureen Wiley Clough (17:36.426)
That's really sweet.
JT O'Donnell (17:37.296)
That's so cool.
Joel Cheesman (17:47.988)
He will be missed by many, many people, including me. but this shout out goes to a well deserved guy that raised me. I mean, what other what other burden can you possibly celebrate than that? shout out to Willis Franklin Cheesman, God rest his soul, rest in peace, and obviously PMA.
Maureen Wiley Clough (18:07.082)
Love it.
Chad Sowash (18:07.372)
There it is. All good. I just gotta say, coach, we're gonna we're g we're gonna miss we're gonna miss coach, but you talk about a guy who lived a life eighty six. He was did eighty six. my god, dude. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. In Texas, yeah, in Austin, yeah. they can't believe Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (18:11.091)
Sorry, I it's
Maureen Wiley Clough (18:11.381)
Love it. To your dad. Wow.
JT O'Donnell (18:12.913)
Joel Cheesman (18:17.8)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (18:23.195)
86. Funny story, Chad, because you the first time you met him, I think, was at ACL, Austin City Limits Music Festival. so I won't go into the the the coin or why it was why I was there with my dad, but my dad and I were there. He was he was in his 70s. And funny story, we took, I'm like, I'm not gonna be mosh pinning with my dad. So we took lawn chairs to this music festival, and he he he just he pulled out this ratty ass chair to take.
The first band we go see, he puts his chair up. My chair's there. I go get a beer. I come back. He's on the ground. His chair is like on top of him. And I'm thinking, my God, my dad is gonna die at ACL of a heart attack or stroke or some shit. What had happened is the chair broke. So he was on the ground from the broken chair and he was perfectly fine. But then we threw the chair away and
Maureen Wiley Clough (19:04.64)
No.
Joel Cheesman (19:17.341)
Five minutes later, the chair was gone. Somebody like, I got a free chair and the chair was out of there. So that's and then we we eventually saw Chad and his his soon to be wife, Julie, at the show, oddly enough. Oddly enough.
Chad Sowash (19:21.512)
Yes, ACL.
Chad Sowash (19:29.012)
Yeah, yeah. Happenstance, happenstance. Well be well before the podcast, kids. Well before the podcast. Yeah. Recruitment market. So much easier.
Joel Cheesman (19:30.749)
Happenstance.
Maureen Wiley Clough (19:33.482)
Really? Wow.
Joel Cheesman (19:34.599)
Yeah. If if only we had been sponsored by Shaker Recruitment Marketing during those days of travel, we would have had some chairs that actually worked. Because we do have ch we do have Shaker chairs that are actually of of high quality, which is good time to mention that they're our our travel sponsor, love them. Our travel for the season is over. we'll talk about next year, probably when next year, next year happens. but we are right in the midst of
Maureen Wiley Clough (19:38.434)
Ha ha
JT O'Donnell (19:39.434)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (19:42.49)
Ha ha ha.
JT O'Donnell (19:43.364)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (19:47.58)
Legit.
Chad Sowash (20:04.332)
Joel Cheesman (20:07.517)
Fantasy football where Joel Cheeseman is a rocket up the the charts here. But let's get thanks to Factory Fix. I'm wearing the jersey. as you know, thanks for sponsoring our unhealthy habit. But here is your first to worst for week eight, I believe. We're going into week eight, Chad. number one, he's been there the whole time. Jarrett the Joker, Joel Dursma. number two, Benjamin Franklin Kuntz. He's on fire.
Maureen Wiley Clough (20:08.966)
Ha ha ha
Chad Sowash (20:10.06)
Take into the paradigm.
Joel Cheesman (20:34.941)
Then you got Joel Pepperjack Cheeseman. yeah. Number four, we got Nicholas, Don't Call Me Horseshack, Tyshack. Number five, Rajan Cajun, Dajan Amare. Number six, Scott, Scott Clark Griswold. Then we got Nick Livin' Levita Loka Livingston, followed by Bauman Bosco Vuyatovich. Number nine, we got Chad so close, so wash. keep working at it, Chad. Number ten, last year's champ McKenzie, mad dog Maitland.
Maureen Wiley Clough (20:38.096)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (20:57.563)
Sucks.
Maureen Wiley Clough (20:58.868)
Ha ha ha ha.
JT O'Donnell (21:00.091)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (21:04.211)
Followed by Molly Slicedolone. And in the basement, we got Desiree Goldiehan, who's still, still winless, but we still love ya. We still love ya. That's right. I think Mo is gonna be on Desiree's show or Desiree's gonna be on here. Aren't you doing a show with Desire? Okay, okay.
Chad Sowash (21:04.261)
Maureen Wiley Clough (21:04.351)
Get it.
Chad Sowash (21:11.03)
Poor kid. Poor kid. Yes. We do. We love ya.
Maureen Wiley Clough (21:11.488)
bless you. She's consistent, right? Yeah, I'm I'm going I'm going on talentless. Yeah. We gotta we gotta actually I think I think I dropped that ball and need to firm up the plans. Shocking. I know. You guys are shocked that I have not threaded that needle. it's coming up. I need to thread the needle and like book it. Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (21:21.394)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (21:32.477)
Yeah. Yeah. Is that is that coming up or has that been recorded already? it's coming up. All right.
Maureen Wiley Clough (21:41.418)
But it's coming. It's coming. You're going. I love it. That's great. Fabulous. Man, all the podcasts.
Joel Cheesman (21:41.598)
then j
JT O'Donnell (21:41.864)
We're f Yeah. I'm on there Friday. I'm on their t I'm on Talentlist Friday. Yeah. Looking forward to it. Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (21:49.011)
That's her pl that's Desiree's plan, Chad. She's gonna pull Mo and JT off our show for putting her in last place in in fantasy, clearly.
Maureen Wiley Clough (21:52.512)
Ho ho ho ho So getcha back.
Chad Sowash (21:53.196)
Well she's she's trying to get me scheduled. She's trying to get me scheduled on the phones or on the on the podcast, so I don't know. I might I might have to I might have to eject out of that one. We can't we can't can't have us all gone. Shit. Jesus Christ.
JT O'Donnell (21:55.826)
She's pretty fabulous.
Maureen Wiley Clough (22:01.429)
What
Joel Cheesman (22:02.372)
Okay. I'm I'm going solo, apparently. I'm going solo, everybody. Yeah, she she doesn't want me on, so I'm I'm going solo, everybody. Fuck it.
Maureen Wiley Clough (22:06.27)
You can't have a chat and cheese show without chat. Yeah.
you can come on mine, Joel. Talk about being old.
JT O'Donnell (22:12.842)
No.
Joel Cheesman (22:15.589)
Yeah, let's let's get to topics talking about going on on shows here everybody.
Chad Sowash (22:15.722)
Joel Cheesman (22:23.421)
Guys, you know our topics today are sponsored by Proven Base. Find talent others can't reach with proven base. Love free bourbon. Well, I mean, who who doesn't really? Who doesn't love a little free cock?
Joel Cheesman (22:37.885)
That's right. Proven Base are sending two bottles, not just one. One from Chad, one for me, to a lucky winner. But you got to go to Chad's Chadcheese.com slash free to win some. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta play to to win, Chad, basically is is the rule. again, thanks to to Proven Base for that. Now to the news, everybody. Crazy ass story. A Binance, that's a company that does crypto shit. A Binance engineer was contacted.
via a job platform for a fake role. After interviews, one sharing personal social media to build trust, he downloaded a malware laced coding assignment on his work computer. This gave North Korean hackers access, leading to a six point three four billion dollar heist of Binance wallets. Fortunately the money has been returned to this point, Chad.
I do not have Binance and North Koreans on my bingo card again, in in addition to Jefferson Davis. What are your thoughts on this crazy news story?
Maureen Wiley Clough (23:34.036)
Hmm.
Chad Sowash (23:41.108)
Dude. And this is after we just talked about Bullhorn getting getting hacked, right? So I mean this is this is happening all over the place. Now this is an entirely different scenario. And I was automatically drawn to the story when I saw the words hacked and job interview in the in the article's title, right? And I automatically thought, shit, a platform got breached, but it wasn't. That wasn't it. The hackers first.
Joel Cheesman (23:46.825)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (23:56.681)
Mm.
JT O'Donnell (23:58.928)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (24:07.488)
Targeted a Binance wallet engineer and was able to get him through a free and and open source software manager called Homebrew. So he they there was there there were some holes in that software and so they they got to him that way. Binance found the malicious code and wiped it. But at that point, the the hackers started to understand the types of people who they wanted to target inside of Binance. So they created a fake company with fake jobs.
And started recruiting Binance engineers. One Binance engineer made it to the interview stage with a fake company and a fake job. And as part of the interview, as you said, Joel, he had to download an assignment, which GoFigured contained malicious code and now was on his work computer. Kids, don't work, use your work computer for this shit. Jesus fucking Christ. So it it wasn't, it wasn't a single access point.
Maureen Wiley Clough (24:45.834)
Can't
Joel Cheesman (24:51.111)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (24:59.43)
Exactly. What is he thinking?
Chad Sowash (25:05.428)
and it never really is. They accessed one engineer, learned from that. It's it's this is a probing scenario, right? You've got to probe the perimeter, you've got to figure out where the weaknesses are. And then in this case, literally, you set up a fake company, fake jobs, you have access. It's amazing. But lastly, I want to say thank God it was not an interviewing platform. Because can you imagine the paranoia that would have happened in the HR tech community after?
Maureen Wiley Clough (25:11.754)
Crazy.
Joel Cheesman (25:14.057)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (25:33.46)
Gosh.
Chad Sowash (25:34.912)
Binance got robbed of over six billion dollars. I mean just thank God that did not happen.
Maureen Wiley Clough (25:40.331)
Totally agree. Dude, so was it kind of like a numbers game for them where they're like, hey, we're gonna target a number of these in these internal employees and then one of them will be stupid enough to actually download this on their company computer? Like, isn't that like the first rule of job searching is you don't do shit on your company computer because it's all trackable? So what my gosh. So they're just they just were like, Hey, someone will do it. Wow. Stunning, stunning.
Chad Sowash (25:46.112)
Yes. Yes. Well it's it's all of Yes. Yes.
Joel Cheesman (25:51.025)
Yeah. It wa it was yeah.
Chad Sowash (25:55.852)
Yes. Yes.
Chad Sowash (26:02.528)
Yeah, yeah.
JT O'Donnell (26:05.555)
I do think though, you know, I'm the voice of the job seeker here. Everything we're gonna talk about today, it's not built for the job seeker. The job seekers on the hook. This is the second time this has happened. This is not the first time in history. It happened back in 2022, where there was a job offer made, the company was called and I did my homework on it, which was so shocking, but they lost six hundred and twenty-five million. It was called the Ronan Bridge hack. So, you know, this is happening and
It what makes me so upset is that we're still not thinking about the guardrails that need to be put in place because job seekers are desperate for jobs. And I know you're gonna say, wait a minute, this guy was a, you know, an engineer at this place. But the truth is, everyone right now is worried. Do I have a job? Will I have an income? Right. If you talk about fear in the in the elections, people are petrified. I talk to them every day. And so even if you have a good job, you're probably gonna take
Maureen Wiley Clough (26:53.386)
Fair.
JT O'Donnell (27:02.736)
that conversation just to see what's out there to cover your bets. And the fact that the sophistication level of this, the way they can create HR and interviewing. And I mean, I hear this every day of people, right? A CEO on WhatsApp, be a suspect. Just last night, just last night, somebody messaged me and said, JT, is this you? Are you searching a confidential search for a board advisory role? Immediately messenger back, nope, look at it. It's a Gmail account. I would never message you from a Gmail account.
Maureen Wiley Clough (27:07.306)
Should.
Joel Cheesman (27:13.843)
A CEO.
Joel Cheesman (27:18.013)
Yeah. And social media accounts. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (27:27.443)
Uh-huh.
Maureen Wiley Clough (27:30.623)
Yep.
JT O'Donnell (27:32.38)
But people are so desperate right now, they're willing to kind of look the other way and not do the due diligence. And quite frankly, it's so sophisticated that even if they do, there's stuff that's getting by them. And so it's frustrating to hear these stories, you know?
Maureen Wiley Clough (27:45.15)
Yeah. No, you're totally right.
Chad Sowash (27:45.246)
I agree with all of that. The only thing I don't agree with is don't use your fucking company computer. That's it. I I d d do it. Yes, do it all. Do it all. I what you said, JT, do all of that. Just don't use your c your your company computer, please.
Maureen Wiley Clough (27:50.708)
That blows my mind. I mean it would suck to get hacked on your personal computer too. That obviously would suck, but yeah.
JT O'Donnell (27:50.92)
Totally agree. T I totally agree. Totally agree. Not d no.
JT O'Donnell (28:02.105)
One hundred percent. One hundred percent. No I I get it. I get it. I mean this you know, this poor person is gonna be humiliated forever, you know.
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:02.594)
I mean yeah own goal.
Joel Cheesman (28:08.265)
You know
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:10.865)
my gosh.
Joel Cheesman (28:11.559)
His historically, I mean, job seekers have been targeted for that very reason. The desperation means they'll do anything. I'll I'll give you my soche, I'll give you like my bank account, I'll give you like whatever. And what's different is it used to be get get into their bank account, the individual. Now it's how do we get into the company accounts and how do we get in this case it's a finance company. How do we get that crypto? And if I
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:17.12)
So sad.
JT O'Donnell (28:18.728)
Right. Right. Thank you, Joel.
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:20.04)
Mm-hmm. It's really cruel. You're right.
Chad Sowash (28:34.436)
yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:35.648)
And that's a pr yeah.
Joel Cheesman (28:36.753)
If I'm any bank on the planet right now, and that includes regional banks that have a lot of money, but maybe don't have the security of a Chase or a Wells Fargo, I'm super concerned about all this because AI has made this game so fast that from from what I read in the story, like before they even knew what happened, like stuff was gone. Like the so the AI and and when quantum comes around, I guess, this shit's gonna be
JT O'Donnell (28:40.711)
Be afraid.
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:51.04)
Crazy.
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:56.896)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (29:05.085)
Faster than, you know, faster than fast. And it's like the speed at which this stuff happens, I don't know if companies can keep up. It's going to be really hard.
Maureen Wiley Clough (29:11.252)
doing nothing for my anxiety, I'll tell you that. I just sa I I think literally everything's a scam, so I'm like very reluctant to click on a friend will send me a link and I'll be like, is this actually you? Tell me what this is. Like I I just don't believe anything, really.
JT O'Donnell (29:11.816)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (29:19.495)
I mean, like like all yeah, I mean my my my person little personal story here. Like I I've always been concerned about identity theft and and whatever. And then I got to a point where like, well shit, like everybody's probably everywhere in the dark web. And then it it's sort of nothing ever really happened. I've gotten two in the last six months, like accounts for credit cards being opened in my name. Now fortunately
Maureen Wiley Clough (29:33.248)
We're all on the dark web, yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (29:43.713)
man.
Joel Cheesman (29:45.544)
your bank accounts, your Amex, whatever, like alert you when this stuff happens, but I have to call, hey, it's not me and then fraud and then it still dings my credit. So I I'm looking at like life lock or whatever these solutions are to protect myself. So it's happening to me, it's definitely happening to multi million dollar, billion dollar companies. And it's only going to get more sophisticated.
Maureen Wiley Clough (29:50.805)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (29:51.922)
Do the work.
Maureen Wiley Clough (29:56.991)
Yep.
Maureen Wiley Clough (30:06.204)
Absolutely. We need a ton of protections.
Chad Sowash (30:07.344)
Incredibly. Yes. Well, I mean, again, we talked about Bullhorn last week. And in Bullhorn, there's a lot of data there, there's a lot of security. So the the companies going after different things when companies are going after different data points in some of these in some of these record keeping platforms versus money, right? And I mean they're going to try to look at any any way they can link together holes to be able to access. And I mean that
Joel Cheesman (30:23.528)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (30:32.717)
huh.
Chad Sowash (30:35.188)
So that it's it's gotta be more protocols. And as we talk about creating more jobs in this new AI world, it a lot of it's gonna have to be in in cybersecurity. It's gonna have to be in in managing AI and in doing a lot of these different things.
Maureen Wiley Clough (30:46.548)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (30:46.822)
Agreed.
Joel Cheesman (30:49.405)
Yeah. And look, I a story I've heard recently, and this will kind of play into our our our hood you rather later, but more and more job seekers that I'm talking to are given projects. They're given like, hey, do this case study or do this homework for me like this one. And and a lot of it I think is like train the models and help like if I can interview someone that's high level, get them to do an assignment and my AI learns from them from a high level experien
Maureen Wiley Clough (30:51.209)
Absolutely.
Maureen Wiley Clough (30:56.33)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (31:01.407)
Yes.
Chad Sowash (31:03.712)
Like this one. Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (31:04.896)
Mm-hmm, like this very one.
Maureen Wiley Clough (31:11.456)
Mm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (31:17.322)
Free consulting. Exploitative free consulting. Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (31:18.343)
Something that's like worth tens of thousands of doll yeah, you're extorting like or getting pronounced. But if the if if the if if do this assignment for us, download this whatever, put this together and put it here, like if that becomes normalized, this danger, this risk goes goes, you know, hyperbolic in my opinion.
Chad Sowash (31:21.13)
Yes. Yes.
Chad Sowash (31:35.616)
Well, I I think it's going to because if you think about it, anybody, everybody's having AI resumes, everybody looks the same, feels the same. So you got you actually have to have interviews, but you can't because that's that's not something that you can scale with humans, right? So you have to have these different assessments just to be able to prove that you can do the job in the first place. So therefore, it it I believe it's already becoming normalized.
Joel Cheesman (31:59.208)
And hello, if agents do everything for us, then it's just agents convincing your agents to give them shit and download shit, and then you don't even then you don't even know what you're doing.
Maureen Wiley Clough (32:03.076)
my gosh. shudder. No, no, thank you. No thank you.
JT O'Donnell (32:07.992)
Yeah, yeah. I I'm with yeah, I'm with Chad. It's not a it's not an if. It's already happening. Wired did a a an article this week that just said, Look, it's going to get harder to apply to a job. It's going to have to get harder to apply to a job. We're gonna have to create more hoops, kinda hunger games, you know, in order and so like you said, those kinds of things are where the exposure lies. And in a race, the AI recruiting arms race is out of control, right? It's absolutely
Chad Sowash (32:08.128)
That's that's another step. Yeah, that's a yeah.
Joel Cheesman (32:10.332)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (32:25.353)
Friction.
JT O'Donnell (32:37.38)
Offrails, every time I open my LinkedIn feed, there's another company announcing that they've just solved all of recruiting's woes and they're the perfect solution. And none of them are talking about their exposure. Right. So I think 2027 is going to be the year where we start to see more lawsuits, more of these things in the recruiting space. And every company out there is going to ask, did we check and see about our AA tech stack? Did we make sure?
Maureen Wiley Clough (32:44.135)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (33:03.868)
Because to say, well, it's on them, it's not on them. It's on you, the employer. You should know how they're doing it. This is why I built the candidate first manifesto. This is why I'm building a candidate first scorecard. These companies need to understand their exposure. What they want to do with it is their call, but it is not fair that candidates don't understand what's happening to them.
Chad Sowash (33:06.284)
Yeah?
Maureen Wiley Clough (33:07.262)
Yep. Totally. Totally agree.
Maureen Wiley Clough (33:22.304)
Couldn't agree more.
Joel Cheesman (33:23.369)
The the new Congress is gonna have their hands full with AI on a lot of different different levels. Guys, if guys, if you're a fan, please give us a follow. Give us a review. your s podcast platform of choice. Follow us. if you like our lovely faces, check us out on YouTube, youtube dot com slash at cheese. Listen to the ads because there's no show without the money kids.
Maureen Wiley Clough (33:25.734)
Yeah. They sure are.
JT O'Donnell (33:26.184)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Agreed.
Chad Sowash (33:44.908)
At Chad cheese. At Chad cheese. At cheese. I know. I know.
Maureen Wiley Clough (33:46.378)
How it goes.
Joel Cheesman (33:49.235)
What did I say? At Chad Cheese. I don't think I don't think I don't think we own cheese.com. I think it's a totally different thing. It would be cool if we did. All right. All right. Let's take a break.
Maureen Wiley Clough (33:52.692)
All about him, all about him Can you imagine? my god. Wood
Chad Sowash (34:00.661)
It would be, yes, I agree.
Joel Cheesman (34:10.169)
U.S. job openings jumped to 7.52 million in September of 26, up 333,000 from August, and the highest since May, beating forecasts. Gains hit professional services, government manufacturing, and construction. Layoffs fell to a month month multi-month low, and quits rose, signaling firmer labor demand and a potential hiring pickup despite modest payroll growth. However,
Hire stayed modest and the overall market remains characterized by weak churn, also known as no hire, no fire. And don't forget, the survey does not scrape online listings. It asks establishments directly. So, Chad, is this report a slam dunk showing us a brighter future? Or is it another head fake?
Chad Sowash (34:46.232)
Make fifty two fifty two.
Chad Sowash (34:56.812)
it's it's it's more like horse and buggy days, right? So I mean, e even if I trusted the administration, which I don't, I don't trust the data that's constantly changing from month to month to month, because this is this is horse and buggy shit. We're not actually doing on demand information, which we've talked to Toby Dayton about for for for years now, right? So even if there weren't midterms to I bel I believe falsely sway.
JT O'Donnell (35:01.936)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (35:26.622)
I, you know, I don't trust the data, mainly because while the data is being paraded around, we're also hearing that Canva announced 22% of their workforce impacted by changes to job roles and/or being asked to relocate to centralized offices back to work or laid off, right? Microsoft, we talked about last week, 60,000 layoffs, and that's
AI future with fewer jobs. That's what Microsoft is saying as the business grows. Oracle announced November layoffs of about 2,500. Amazon carried out two additional rounds of layoffs in October. Last Thursday, Goldman Sachs warned the A that AI could eliminate jobs for 15 million American workers, according to the 10th edition of LHH's U.S. Severance and Separation Benefits Benchmark Study. That's a long one.
nearly 70%, 70% of US businesses expect layoffs or reductions in force in their organizations in the next 12 months. That's a lot. But but look. I did no, I did not. Yeah, I know there's like 300 here, 100 there. Yeah. But but but looking looking toward the positive side, last night's election results could bring back balance to the chaos in business.
Joel Cheesman (36:29.704)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (36:35.997)
Did you mention Netflix and Disney? They're in the news too for that. Yeah. So I'll I'll add a couple more. Yeah. Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (36:38.856)
Mm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (36:40.786)
So many.
Maureen Wiley Clough (36:50.239)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (36:50.364)
likes balance and stability, which again instills confidence in the market. So this could change and I believe will drive companies to start spending more outside of AI. And I believe the confidence in the market will create jobs. I can only hope trying to be positive, but there's a lot of companies that are doing these fucking layoffs andor return to work slash layoffs andor layoff this, that it means just it's it's ridiculous.
JT O'Donnell (37:21.458)
Can I say can I dive in? Okay. So you know, we've all been in the industry long enough to know that what tech does first, every other industry does second. So when you see what Microsoft did, that some variations on that are gonna come full first. We've already seen this three times around the layoffs over the last five years. We know what's coming. What concerns me is that if you look at the Ludwig Institute's functional unemployment rate, it improved slightly last month, but it's still
Maureen Wiley Clough (37:21.503)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (37:23.319)
Yes.
Maureen Wiley Clough (37:23.891)
Get it.
JT O'Donnell (37:51.123)
25%. One in four Americans are functionally unemployed. But what we're not looking at is what percentage of those are white collar workers and how many of these people had six-figure high-paying jobs. Last month alone, the number of people that took hardship out of their 401 case went up six percent. These people are trying to hold on to three percent mortgages because they can't buy a seven percent mortgage. This is coming.
Chad Sowash (38:10.284)
Wow.
Maureen Wiley Clough (38:11.552)
Crazy.
Nope.
JT O'Donnell (38:16.284)
Full steam ahead. Microsoft just laid off 60, they're gonna lay off 60,000 people if they don't take their packages. So this is coming full force. I agree with you. I think the pain of the election, we hope that companies will create jobs, but if we realistically look at it, folks, and everything that's going on, they're not going to create that many jobs. And they're not going to create jobs at the salary ban level that these people were at. So you're talking about a massive amount of people sitting out there right now.
Maureen Wiley Clough (38:38.09)
So true.
Chad Sowash (38:40.618)
That's it.
JT O'Donnell (38:41.17)
That will never experience the pay and the level they were at before, and they built a life around it. And if you've ever lived a life and had something that severely taken away from you, it is depressed, it is so depressing. So we're gonna see a a lot of pain and hardship. And it's not being talked about, right? it's not being seen. Everybody is like so excited to profit off AI. And look, I'm I love innovation. I'm using it too. But the way we are not looking at this and not talking about it is.
Maureen Wiley Clough (38:44.404)
Ever. Exactly.
Joel Cheesman (38:44.68)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (38:44.756)
No just
Chad Sowash (38:52.712)
Once you've been aware of that visibility.
And you're just getting kicking a few bullets a week and
Maureen Wiley Clough (39:03.541)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (39:11.5)
so disheartening to me as someone that talks to these people every single day, you know? And so these j these data, these numbers are useless to me, right? They're not real numbers. You know, we're gonna see more numbers on Friday. And they don't mean anything either because nobody's talking about the nuances of WhatsApp.
Maureen Wiley Clough (39:20.468)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (39:27.434)
Thank you. More nuance now. That's what we need. And this conversation needs to take place. And I I could not agree with you any more than with what you just said, because it's just it's so true. The pain is acute for people. And we live in an acquisitive nation. We have more, we spend more. We lock ourselves into lives that we will no longer be able to afford when we see the writing on the wall for what's happening for these white-collar workers.
And these job gains and these openings, you know, they're largely happening in other industries like hospitality and education and other places that don't necessarily command the same salary. And it's not like a one-for-one swap. And also, by the way, they're openings, right? Those aren't hires, right? So you have ghost jobs everywhere, right? We all know that what up to I think Greenhouse said up to like 70% of jobs can be ghost jobs. It seems pretty high, right? Or scammers, as aforementioned, right?
Joel Cheesman (39:55.955)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (40:05.735)
Exactly.
JT O'Donnell (40:13.392)
Or scammers. Right? Or scammers that we just saw. Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (40:14.952)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (40:17.936)
so I mean this is you're absolutely right. The the picture is not being accurately painted and I think it's just gaslighting people on a major scale. And I think that just adds to all of the pain like you were talking about, Chad. It's just like insult on injury, right?
Joel Cheesman (40:32.425)
Well, you want no nuance, Mo, I'll give you some nuance. The problem is the problem is a job number is not like inclusive of every job. And you have to dig into like what types of jobs are actually rising? Well, number one, a group of people you won't hear bitching about data centers is construction workers, laborers, techn engineers, technicians. Like the labor unions are really quiet about data centers because those folks are getting paid so much money.
Maureen Wiley Clough (40:34.9)
Give me some nuance.
Chad Sowash (40:38.016)
Well.
Maureen Wiley Clough (40:42.826)
Hundred percent.
Maureen Wiley Clough (40:51.008)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (41:00.357)
And they they can't fill those seats seats fast enough. So that's almost a third of the new jobs are the construction manufacturing type jobs that we're talking about. The others are healthcare. Thanks, boomers. They're still sick. they're still in, you know, care. And and I've just lived this, you know, in real life. a lot of aging people need help. And if we close the border, we don't have immigrants to actually fill these jobs. So they just remain unfilled jobs forever as old people get.
JT O'Donnell (41:18.344)
First hand.
Maureen Wiley Clough (41:24.864)
Do these jobs.
Joel Cheesman (41:29.575)
you know, sicker and sicker. So I'll give you some nuance there from that perspective. To me, we're still in a no fire, no higher. to Chad's point, hopefully some stability or at least gridlock or what are the rules of the road, free companies to do more. Maybe immigration loosens up and ice, you know, gets smacked down budgetarily. but yeah, I I don't s a little bit of sunshine does not mean the sun is rising.
Maureen Wiley Clough (41:29.962)
Yep. Yeah. Thank you for that. Love the nuance.
Joel Cheesman (41:54.326)
and we're trying to make that happen in this jobs report, this Joltz report, and I don't I don't see it personally.
Maureen Wiley Clough (41:59.689)
One other question about that is I see, you know, with these jobs jolts reports that they're talking about people who quit, right? And the voluntary quit, that that concept I think is a little bit cloudy too, because you companies are doing these RTO mandates that are essentially quiet layoffs, right? And so how many of these people like I don't see this report and think, cool, people are really confident about their ability to get another job. I'm like, are the confident people in the room with us? Like that's not a thing that's happening right now. So is this a bunch of
JT O'Donnell (42:13.32)
Great point.
Joel Cheesman (42:14.375)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (42:26.152)
nonsense about people who, you know, got caught up in these really i mean, they they truly were more involuntary departures from their organizations. I wonder how much of that I wish we could parse through that, because that's another question I have about this report.
Joel Cheesman (42:31.741)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (42:37.877)
And by the way, I I correct me if I'm wrong. JT I'm sure knows this more intimately than I do, but if you resign versus get fired, your benefits are much different. And it's it's in the it's yeah, it's it's in the company's best
Maureen Wiley Clough (42:47.936)
Depends on the state.
JT O'Donnell (42:48.008)
Absolutely. Right. But so one of the things, yeah, one of the things we talk about with the Microsoft, if you take the buyout, then you're voluntarily leaving and you're not going to be able to apply for unemployment benefits depending on what state you're in, like you said. But at the same time, we're making it clear to people that's probably the best offer you're going to get. So if you decide, no, I'm gonna wait because I want unemployment benefits, guess what's gonna happen? When you get laid off, there's not gonna be that money there. So you really need people need to start.
Maureen Wiley Clough (42:51.891)
It's state based.
JT O'Donnell (43:15.612)
Looking closely at these buyout offers. The problem that I see is they take the buy-off and then they decide to take five months off. And they do not understand just how difficult the job search market is. I tell people it's sort of like, you know, getting on a rotary, you know, when it's really busy and you're like, Do I go? It takes a while to get in. That's how it is for a lot of job seekers. And they burn about six months before they realize something is functionally wrong with this job search. my gosh, right? And now
Maureen Wiley Clough (43:18.623)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (43:27.603)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (43:32.48)
Ha ha.
JT O'Donnell (43:43.396)
It and this is we're seeing this time and again. There's a lack of education around what's really happening again, particularly at the white collar level. And so they're burning cash, burning four one Ks, and then waking up one day and saying, What did I do wrong? And they didn't do anything wrong, other than not knowing.
Chad Sowash (43:43.774)
And it is.
Maureen Wiley Clough (43:50.496)
Totally.
Chad Sowash (43:50.58)
I don't think it's actually.
Chad Sowash (43:55.34)
I don't think there's there's things.
Maureen Wiley Clough (43:57.375)
They didn't do anything wrong. It's a system. And and it's worse if you're over if you're over fifty, if you're over forty. Like it's it's tougher and tougher the older you get and you're likely not going to make the decision to leave for yourself and you're going to make less money than you had when you were let go. So this is stuff we need to prepare for.
JT O'Donnell (44:02.78)
Thank you.
Chad Sowash (44:11.018)
There's there's another there's there's another there's another group that we need to talk about. Yes. Yes.
Joel Cheesman (44:17.241)
Immigrants, Chad. Immigrants are are hurt. And it's hurting, hurting everybody. So here go to our next news story. Ice Ice Baby. We're finally starting to get some numbers around the impact of the Trump administration's ice raids. Since 2025, intensified ice enforcement has reduced local employment in targeted cities beyond the numbers of beyond the number of arrests. Brookings research estimates roughly four to thirteen jobs lost per excess.
Maureen Wiley Clough (44:19.068)
yes, yes we do.
JT O'Donnell (44:19.164)
Yeah, let's go there.
Joel Cheesman (44:44.165)
Arrest totaling hundreds of thousands across high surge metros, including among US born workers, via chilling effects, business disruptions, and lower spending, especially in construction and related sectors, with no clear short term gains or natives seeing any benefits. Chad, I want you to stop, collaborate, and listen to what's going on here. Give us your take. Thank you.
Maureen Wiley Clough (45:05.173)
Mm.
That was cute. Pat tip.
Chad Sowash (45:08.901)
I think we were we were overwhelmed by the optics of these ice raids. I mean, and I don't need to get into it. People died, into some kids in cages, that kind of stuff. I I don't want to get into that. We were overwhelmed by that as well we should have been, right? But I don't believe that we that anyone thought about the local economies and how they would react and the actual impact they would feel. So the data shows.
That an arrest to jobs loss ratio of roughly one arrest equaled four jobs lost in these cities that ICE operated. So after 11 months, they actually went back to see if there was a rebound. Were the jobs shortfall? Did it get better? No, it got worse. It got worse. So here's the point that stuck with me: the economic shock rippled through business operations and local consumer demand, debunking the
Joel Cheesman (45:41.033)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (46:01.426)
One-to-one job replacement by Americans. So if you get rid of an immigrant, then Americans gonna take it over, it's all gonna be fine. No. Here are the three things that I see that happened. Immigrants with jobs and money are run out of town not to return. Number two, that loss of money impacted low so local businesses. Those people were not buying stuff anymore. Not only were they not working, they weren't buying stuff anymore. And less buying means you need less workers.
Maureen Wiley Clough (46:05.502)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (46:31.024)
Or you close up shop and because your your customers are gone, right? So now think about the H one B visa bullshit that fucking Sonderling's doing, right? This is talent that won't come to the US. Scientists will go to Europe, developers will go to Canada, and the list goes on and on and on, which means that money that's not only spent in our local economies, but the taxes that are paid by immigrants to the tune of nearly a hundred
Joel Cheesman (46:35.292)
Mm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (46:50.122)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (46:58.121)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (47:00.812)
100 b billion dollars a year all goes away. So when when the talent doesn't exist, where are you looking for it? And and for example, I'll give you a great example. If you can't find developers in Des Moines, Iowa, well, you go to another city or another state, or wait a minute, kids, you offshore to another fucking country, right? Less tax dollars means less money for education, less police officers, less fire department.
Maureen Wiley Clough (47:24.181)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (47:29.46)
Less roads construction for you know filling potholes and shit like that, we become dumber and less safe. The decision to send ice shock troops into cities was wrong in so many ways, and nobody was talking about the economic ramifications. This talks about their economic ra ramifications. And Joel, just to to preview, I've already reached out to Professor Zeke at Wharton.
Joel Cheesman (47:43.283)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (47:52.549)
Uh-huh. Okay.
Chad Sowash (47:55.562)
Who's an expert in immigration? He's written a fifty page document along with his peers, and we're gonna get him on the show to talk specifically about this economic impact. I'm teasing. I'm teasing.
Maureen Wiley Clough (48:03.169)
It's gonna be fascinating.
Joel Cheesman (48:05.854)
You're not teasing me, are you?
Maureen Wiley Clough (48:11.838)
That is gonna be a great episode, my gosh.
Joel Cheesman (48:11.859)
Well look, this this look, this election was about affordability and and good first of all, good point on the H one Bs, because I think that we tend to put ice raids with the folks that are on the the essential jobs and those types, but also these are college educated in some cases and doing really high level work. But if you look at what is expensive, housing's too expensive. Okay, well, who's building the houses? Immigrants. Okay. So if we can't find workers, we gotta pay more. That's more expensive. What else is expensive? Food.
JT O'Donnell (48:14.184)
I agree.
Joel Cheesman (48:41.053)
Food's too expensive. Okay. Well, if no one's there to pick crops, manage livestock, that's a problem. And number three, healthcare. Healthcare is too expensive. We've already talked about elderly care. No one is these aren't nurses. These aren't people that are taking care of these folks. So the three things that are the most expensive all tie back to immigration. And until we loosen that up, these things are going to remain expensive and get more expensive.
JT O'Donnell (49:04.404)
Yeah, I c can I just say I agree with all of this and and I just want to give a hypothetical out there. Okay, so you open up a bunch of construction jobs, a bunch of bricklayer jobs, and you're telling me that the fifty something year old with a master's and MBA and a long career track record, who also has knee and back pain, is racing to fill that job at one fifth of what they ever made first. One fifth of what they ever made first, right? I mean, it just
Joel Cheesman (49:22.377)
Are you are you in my bedroom? Are you in my bedroom?
Chad Sowash (49:24.38)
yeah. quickly. yeah. yeah.
JT O'Donnell (49:32.06)
I listen to it every day. Like to think that to think that, they can just go get ask these people. They're going. They're like, I can't even get a job at my local grocery store or fast food chain. Like, we know. And Mo, you speak to this. my gosh. Like it just it is so ridiculous. The abstract way they just say, you know, one for one. And it's like, it I I can't even right now. I can't.
Maureen Wiley Clough (49:32.16)
It's absurd.
Maureen Wiley Clough (49:36.298)
Just get a job in construction. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (49:42.572)
Is that the pillow talk you have, Cheeseman?
Maureen Wiley Clough (49:42.816)
Yep.
Maureen Wiley Clough (49:53.439)
So true.
Joel Cheesman (49:56.138)
Don't don't underestimate how excited the fairer sex can get when you talk about gout, Chad. It's it's can't really put it put it into words.
Chad Sowash (49:56.15)
I know they're
Maureen Wiley Clough (50:03.022)
Ho God.
Chad Sowash (50:07.008)
All I have to say is Iodine.
Maureen Wiley Clough (50:10.196)
my gosh. my gosh. Yeah, it's almost like they didn't think this through, and rather they were kind of pandering to an extremist part of the base.
Chad Sowash (50:20.204)
It's like fixing a reflecting pool. Anyway, anyway. Anyway.
Joel Cheesman (50:23.187)
All right, so we've we've been up with the election. We've been sorta down with all this stuff. We're we're about to get sexy. With some who'd you rather and well it's it's it's time to have a little fun with who'd you rather when we get back, gang.
Chad Sowash (50:30.44)
yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (50:31.678)
It was all that gout talk, wasn't it, Joel?
Maureen Wiley Clough (50:39.903)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (50:44.241)
All right, one of our favorite games for sure. Who'd you rather?
JT O'Donnell (50:49.464)
No.
Joel Cheesman (50:49.769)
All right, if you don't know how it works, we talk about two companies, startups that have recently gotten funding. And we all go around the table and say who we'd rather. That's right, everybody. And in this corner, we have Play Doh.
Play-doh raised a $16 million Series A round by round led by Nava Ventures, bringing its total funding to 19 million. Founded back in 2025, the San Francisco startup builds simulated corporate environments to safely train and evaluate AI agents. They will use the capital to expand their workplace simulation library. That is Play-Doh.
Maureen Wiley Clough (51:26.036)
That sounds like hell.
Maureen Wiley Clough (51:33.34)
Ha ha ha.
Joel Cheesman (51:34.985)
And in this corner, we have Roleo, an Estonian startup that's raised 2.9 million euros. Total funding now is at 3.46 million euros. It's free agent, monitors European tech jobs, and connects passive professionals directly with employers without traditional applications. Users already include people from Google, Amazon, Stripe, and Spotify. That is Roleo.
Chad, we got Plato versus Roleo. Who'd you rather?
Chad Sowash (52:06.252)
So it's really interesting because Roleo is literally just a job board with agentic wrapping on it. I started digging into it and you use your LinkedIn, it consumes your LinkedIn, then you go into an interview. So it's literally an interview with with an AI bot, right? They take more information from you, etc. etc. This is this is today's job board.
I mean, it's really what it is. It's it's just an evolution to some extent. so that's what it is. Play-doh, on the other hand, is an AI training platform, but it's more than that because Play Doh checks both the end result and how an agent got there, including whether it followed the rules. So remember when OpenAI's agents hacked Hugging Face? That's because the agents weren't monitored. There was really no QAQC. They just sent them off to to do shit, right?
Joel Cheesman (52:56.489)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (53:03.916)
Plato fixes that problem, shuts down iterations that don't follow the rules, and in an age of rogue agents, we need more Play Doh, and I'm going home with Play Doh.
Maureen Wiley Clough (53:13.552)
Joel Cheesman (53:15.356)
Joel Cheesman (53:18.697)
All right, J T, who'd you rather?
JT O'Donnell (53:21.448)
So this is interesting because I think as the voice of the candidate, everyone's going to automatically assume I'm gonna choose Roleo. But I did my homework. I did the candidate first scorecard, I took a look at them, and here's some things everybody needs to know before you step foot on that dang platform. Number one, transparency. The chat with the AI is recorded, it's transcribed and scored, and it shapes what employers see. That's the terms and privacy policy, not a sign-up screen. That's just kind of buried in there, okay?
Kennedy data control, great. You can delete your account, but you can't see what the AI concluded about you, or you fit can't fix it. Okay, let's be clear on that, right? Data use and privacy says, quote, we never sell your data. Your data trains the AI with no opt-in. The policy says data stays in the EU, but their vendor list names two US companies, one for audio and one for video. Fairness and accountability, the AI ranks who employers see. No public bias testing, no way to see your score, no way to appeal.
Candidate value, no sign to hear back when an employer passes on you. You don't get anything. And the coaching tools are coming in 2027. Honest marketing, GDRP compliant and EU AI Act compliant badges with nothing public behind them. Nothing. Friends get paid a referral bonus if you're hired and nothing makes them tell you. You don't even know if a friend got money for referring you. Employer checks, no public word on how they check that employer and if the job is real. That scares the daylights out of me right now.
Right? Anybody can get on there. So think buy-in buy-in's all over again. So the reality is they're building a product for the candidate, which you know, and normally I would get excited about, but it doesn't do anything to protect the candidate. This is a beautiful example of what everybody's building out there right now. Everybody's just grabbing money. And by the way, who pays for this? The employer. Again, we keep making everything for the employer because I get it, they pay the bills. But if you don't think legislation is going to come in 2027,
Joel Cheesman (54:59.795)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (55:17.798)
And if you don't think you need to be checking what you use, be careful, employers. Please be careful, right? Don't just grab it because it's cheaper. Just because we can build it with AI doesn't mean we should, right? So shockingly, even though you'd think it that way, I'm also going with Play-Doh for the reasons that Chad talked about. I think at least I'm seeing somebody put some effort in to check and balance.
Joel Cheesman (55:40.969)
All right, Mo. That sounds like a tr that sounds like the vote. I hate Trump so much I'm voting for this one. Like you hate Roleo so much that Plato just wins. Plato gets my vote. All right.
Chad Sowash (55:45.996)
Hey, it's it's two AM. Yeah. Well it's it's two AM. Rolia was a little bit too loud, too boisterous. You know, I w I needed somebody a little bit chill. What about Mo? Tell us Mo. Come on, Mo.
JT O'Donnell (55:49.048)
Don't like the lie. I don't like the lie. We're pro-candidate. We're pro-candidate. They're not. They're not like it's mm-mm.
JT O'Donnell (56:02.963)
Flashy we don't know what's underneath.
Joel Cheesman (56:04.202)
All right. All right, Mo. We got we got two it's two to zero.
Maureen Wiley Clough (56:06.645)
Y'all. Guys, I'm sorry. I'm Irish exiting out of this bar tonight. I I want nothing. I want nothing tonight, is what I'll say. I yeah, I mean there's so many reasons that you all just detailed why I would not be super pumped about ending up with either of these. So I I I think I'm just gonna abstain. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna call it. It's been a good night. Everybody had a good time. We're just gonna go home. I'm gonna take
JT O'Donnell (56:32.764)
Going home alone.
Chad Sowash (56:33.909)
S super pumped. Wasn't that a Netflix series or something?
Maureen Wiley Clough (56:35.54)
Taken Advil. yeah, that was a great series. That was a great series. Highly recommend. That was about Uber. That was about Travis Kalinick. And with my favorite actor, Joseph Gordon Levitt, who's also like a very huge advocate for ethical and responsible AI. So also, also one of my first crushes ever. So, you know. nice! Yeah, we share that. We share that. So I'll go home with Joseph Gordon Levitt and neither of those companies. How about that?
Chad Sowash (56:50.732)
Very smart dude.
Joel's too. Joel's too. Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (57:01.065)
I don't know that we've ever had someone just bow out of the competition, Chad. I don't know that
Maureen Wiley Clough (57:03.624)
No, you don't I just have you? Okay, well yeah, there we go. I'm I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't really I can't really get down. Okay. Ir Irish accent.
Chad Sowash (57:04.48)
yeah. Yeah we have. Yeah we have. Yeah. We've had a we've we've had menage a tois, we've had a bowout, we've had all this stuff, yeah.
JT O'Donnell (57:06.086)
Independent thinker. There's a first.
Joel Cheesman (57:08.477)
Have we? All right. Well I'll
JT O'Donnell (57:13.296)
Irish goodbye. I like it.
Joel Cheesman (57:15.689)
Bastiality, cats and dogs living together. We've done a we we've had we've had some dogs. We've had some dogs in this competition. All right. well goddammit, you guys you guys went a direction I didn't think you were gonna go. And I I was I was like I was gonna kinda come around to this whole Jack and Jill thing. so I I I don't love the AI training thing.
Maureen Wiley Clough (57:18.086)
God. man, this is taking a turn. Let's go back to gout. Gout. dear God. dear God.
Chad Sowash (57:18.582)
Whoa ho He just takes it too.
Chad Sowash (57:26.72)
back to gout.
Maureen Wiley Clough (57:31.184)
Ha ha
Joel Cheesman (57:45.322)
when you say basically you're gonna train your replacement. Like we're gonna track all your shit you do at your job, and then at some point it's gonna take you over. And well, it doesn't mean you have to like it. it may be very profitable. I mean, look, it's like handshake or Mercor, this whole industry of let's train the AI and people that do that are going to make a lot of money. Well at some point the AI doesn't need training anymore, it needs a lot less and people lose their jobs when that happens. And when I roll in the whole
Chad Sowash (57:52.044)
That's
Maureen Wiley Clough (57:53.128)
Meta's been doing that. Yeah, exactly. Lots of companies have been doing that. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (58:13.469)
Hey, it's a job application, but we're gonna give you some homework and you're gonna do this assignment. So, like you're able to train your AI on people that are high level on all these jobs without actually hiring these people. You just train the AI on what they already know. So I was I'm pretty out on the Play-Doh thing. I don't love it from that perspective. The Roleo as it exists now, I think is a little bit troublesome, but I hear so many stories about I interview with the AI and
Maureen Wiley Clough (58:17.108)
Mm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (58:22.889)
Not cool.
Joel Cheesman (58:43.407)
Or on both sides, right? Like I got an interview with an AI, it's very impersonable. I don't trust anything. I don't know what's going on. I'm getting ghosted. Like there's a horrible experience from the job seekers seeker side. But then also the employers are dealing with this tsunami of applicants, robots that are applying that are perfect. So if if a step toward a solution to that world, which I think is is not going to is belong for this world, if part of that is
We're going to match you, but then automatically through the matching connect you with a human being to actually sort of interview with a human on the fly. If that is part of the solution to this whole robots interviewing robots, then I kind of got to go with Roleo. I'm not super excited about it, but if it's a step toward that solution, then
I'd rather Roleo. You know what I'm saying? I'd rather Roleo. So we got a two to one and an abst we got an abstainment. Yeah. There you go. You're out of it. You were out of it. But what what I think we can all want to go home with after a long night of drinks is a dad joke. Is a dad joke. And I've been off for a couple of weeks, so I'm pretty excited. I'm pretty excited about this, guys. I've been I've been really excited about it. Here we go.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:30.303)
Ha ha.
Chad Sowash (59:34.08)
Maybe I want to actually find something you're just saying.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:34.78)
I mean yeah, I receit, yeah.
I'm out. I'm just out.
JT O'Donnell (59:45.936)
No we don't. No we don't. No, no we don't. No we don't. No we don't.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:46.752)
I'm worried. Mm
Chad Sowash (59:47.338)
We don't. We do not. No, we don't. Yeah, all I all I can say.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:53.721)
n boy. Pent up dad joke energy. Yeah. boy. All right.
Joel Cheesman (01:00:01.501)
Guys, why was Han Solo unhappy with his stake? Why was Han Solo unhappy with his stake?
Chad Sowash (01:00:08.716)
Because it was too chewy.
Joel Cheesman (01:00:11.173)
It was too chewy.
Chad Sowash (01:00:12.544)
Yes, yes. Boom.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:00:13.824)
Wow I that's amazing
JT O'Donnell (01:00:16.328)
Chad.
Joel Cheesman (01:00:19.333)
Chad Sowash (01:00:20.896)
Pain baby.
JT O'Donnell (01:00:21.842)
Pain.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:00:22.368)
Do you win an award for that? Yeah. You gotta stump us.
Joel Cheesman (01:00:22.941)
Alright, I got another one. I can't I can't go out I can't go out like that. Guys, what what do you what do you call what do you call a cow's knees? What do you call a cow's knees?
Chad Sowash (01:00:33.036)
beefy joints. I don't know. burger! I was close! I was so close! God, this is my day. This is my dad joke day.
Joel Cheesman (01:00:36.357)
A burger joint.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:00:38.209)
Okay, that's that's cute. I like that one. Approved. Woohoo! Cheers. We out.
JT O'Donnell (01:00:38.77)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:00:39.431)
You're close. You're close. To the blue Nami, everybody. Have a drink and celebrate. We out.
JT O'Donnell (01:00:47.27)
We out.
Chad Sowash (01:00:47.338)
We out.
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