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Remember Suresh Naidu, the professor of economics and international and public affairs at Columbia University I, my area of specialty is economic history and particularly of, of labor markets. So I'm kind of a Jack of all trades as they come in economics. Yeah. Suresh (18m 28s): That's one of the big impetuses to this interest in economics and monopsony is that I mean, so during the Reagan times, we were pitched trickle down economics, which was supposed to feed

Chad Sowash: Well, I mean the basic economics around this is, today the average meat packing salary in

Suresh is a professor of economics and international and public affairs at Columbia University as well Needless to say, this interview is heady so prepare to take notes as we talk deep workforce economics He's a professor of Economics and International and Public Affairs at Columbia University, as well as We talk about economics in the, obviously the vein of workforce, but we don't have economic professors And so now monospony becomes the binding constraint, as we say, in economics.

Because this was going to put massive harm on the US economy, the exact same thing. Is it the individual's job to drive economic development for the entire country or Italy, the actual Chad: It's the government being lazy and not doing their job and actually doing economic development. The problem is, Italy's not doing its job and creating economic development. If you look at Milano, there are plenty of jobs and it's rich and the economy is booming.

So, one benefit of having done this for 26 years is this is my fourth economic correction that I've seen

From there, it's off to Deutschland where a recession has led Europe's largest economy to rethink immigration The survey cites economic pressures such as ballooning interest rates. Joel: So, I look at this primarily from a, I guess, macro economic perspective. The construct that we're talking about right now, the economic construct we're talking about right now We need to be thinking differently about how economics can work.

Chad Sowash and today we are just super excited to welcome back Suresh Naido Columbia professor of Economics know, the recovery from the early shutdown of 2020, and, you know, I think China's kind of continued economic And so it's kind of, you know, this strange pattern of economic growth where it's like, we are seeing It's not something that we're sort of taught in economics or that we teach very clearly. Suresh (21m 48s): I think there's a way in which like the gig economy wound up, like absorbing a lot

And I always get frustrated if you hear people say, "Oh, declining birth rates are bad for economies. They're bad for economies that depend on exploiting large amounts of underemployed people. What if people are just into the freedom of the gig economy?

It's interesting that you say the gig economy is not on your radar as a competitor. We wiped those off the map with stupid trickle-down economics, pushing everybody to be able to get a

So, so my winners, number one is gig economy platforms. platform after gig economy platform, there's precedent. So the country can get our damned economic engines running. an economic emergency with a side of virus. And then we get our fucking economy back.

zone is one about 9,000 census tracks across the U S that were selected by governors as being really economically Did you have anything that actually ties to economic growth as well? Oh, that's in our DNA as opportunities zone investors, you know, there's always a huge priority on economic So yeah, we like to think that every aspect of what we do has to have a significant focus on economic Are you tying again, back to the economics of it in the actual workforce side of the house?

Because at the center of all the economic banter is, TALENT! Joel (33s): And today we're talking economics, everybody on the show. I do love talking about data and economics and all that nerdy stuff. started to move towards worker empowerment because when you just look at the supply demand, right, economics And so it's going to take a few quarters for this to process out, but a lot of professional economic

Economic insights: surprisingly legit. Joel references Swift lyrics: against his will. And so you and so this happens in economics where there are women in economics who have, you know, gotten And they don't get to be in the mainstream economics. They have to be off to the side in a field called feminist economics. around who they are and how they perceive the world in economic models.

There's a ton of economic risk, inflation risk, tariff risk, immigrate. This so validates Gartner came out last year and said, look, this is a $480 billion knowledge creator economy Joel Cheesman (48:53.346) Yeah. goes back to the 19th century. there was an English economist named William

$1.5 trillion in student debt is breaking students backs, but it could also break the U.S. economy. and Faith Rothberg who join Chad and Julie for a look at how College affects the workforce and our economy Economy podcast. This is literally could easily cripple our economy. #College #CollegeRecruiter #Economy #Debt #Talent #SkillsGap

Economic megatrends continue to take hold. There are more job openings than ever before, and that has invigorated the gig economy and put recruiters

One interesting thing is, before I got into economics, I actually used to work in international peacekeeping You've got people at the top end of the gig economy, and people at the lower end of the gig economy. conversation, so that we can all learn more about this issue, and keep it top of mind as we go through the economic Josh: Well, we're getting a little bit abreast of economics here, and into political #Economy #GigEconomy #Economist #Research #iCims

Now, this is a turning, I guess you could say, of the socio-economic formula, where generally individuals I don't think anybody is immune to the shifting macro-economic environment. [laughter] The economics never work out. I don't know. Chad: You can't quit me. Joel: I know. Well, maybe given the economic climate that we're in, one of the stat areas that I'm really into is the

So Vette is a platform that utilizes the gig economy to phone interview applicants on behalf of businesses more velocity, which is the technology, but they don't have enough people, and so by utilizing the gig economy of the one single person, and so with that, it's not limited, it almost in a way defines the macro economics Chad: And again, taking macro economics on the podcast, she's definitely running for president, so we're

It's for people that did not study economics. I didn't study economics. Chad (03:06.735) Yeah, well, you're so how do you get from, you know, to the CNET economics desk, right But a little bit about you, though, how do you how did you get to the economics beat? And what seems to have happened since trickle down economics and Reagan and all that happy horseshit She was on the economics beat.

We'll have a whole segment of the workforce that will prefer this gig economy type work, which is very So I think we'll have this gig economy component. We've got the gig economy. It always has had an impact only at certain times in our labor economy. Joel: And what you're outlining is the recipe for a gig economy uprising.

And in our economy, we only want it to always go up. We're in an economy right now where cash is the worst asset you can have. the inequality is, if you look at the one single thing that has distorted this country's politics and economics as having a strong economy and we try to equate those two economies to being, I mean the same. #Economy #remote #Advertising #VOICES #RobertRuff

Remember with the stock markets, they move before the real economy reflects the upturn. we will start to see the central banks returning to focusing on growth as opposed to shrinking the economy

Allie Kelly (01:36.654) I really cover how economic policy impacts people's daily lives. But it's a really an oversimplification and kind of a scapegoat for what is actually a much larger economic But the real economic reason that we're seeing waves of layoffs in white collar sectors, that we're seeing Allie Kelly (24:30.012) Tariffs are a huge part of the economic narrative right now and have been for Or if they want to connect with you and talk more about all this wonderful economic stuff that you write

Joel: The growth of the gig economy. Is the gig economy on their radar? Are they afraid of it? Are their companies embracing it? lot of conversations about this, are that large companies increasingly are recognizing that the gig economy has ups and downs in certain industries, but I have to say right now we are in a reasonable, still economy #GerryTales #GerryCrispin #GigEconomy #Economy

So economically, this doesn't make a lot of sense. I have stopped looking at this from a economic point of view. America is not losing economically. Capitalism globally works for us economically. There's an economic question and there's a geopolitical question. But Smoot-Hawley was only economic. There was not a war.

And so when gig economy came in, we started thinking of gig economy as providing insurance through a Chad (07:04.202) Well, talking more to that, even before we hit this crazy economic time that we're in So to me, it really feels like in the pockets of the country that we really need robust economic restructuring , we're getting the gig economy. The paper that this podcast was sort of based on is published in the Journal of Financial Economics,

That went away, trickle down, economics happened. Doesn't happen anymore. Marc Effron (19:50.872) Yeah, I didn't know we would be veering into economic policy thoughts, which Darn straight we should be, but that also means that the economic incentives need to be there. That is a perverse economic incentive instead of saying, hey, why don't we loan you $20,000 a year to So should there be some balancing of economic investments around that? Yes.

Chad (18m 27s): They might, they should probably switch to the gig economy. So they're looking a little hard at the gig economy, no specific plans or official plans. What are your thoughts on Facebook heading into the gig economy? cannabis tax revenue into a fund for youth development, anti-violence programs, re-entry programs, economic

And your guess is good as mine, but my thesis is that it's gig economy stuff, and you'll find someone

Chad (37m 39s): The world economic forum projects is going to take 257 years at our current rate to close a business group said, quote, this would have a great impact on the already seriously deteriorated economic

to Europe to help companies like countries like Greece and Spain, to certain extent to overcome the economic

If you're looking for a different take on how the economy and tech are evolving in Europe, and particularly Hendrik Schmahl: But also economically driven, right? Joel: Yeah. Joel: But just economically is what I mean. Hendrik Schmahl: Economic footprint of having Iran... So talk about the EV revolution, [laughter] and what that is gonna mean to Germany's economy. What's your take on the companies that are being built, their impact on the German economy, how they're

Short of that, the economy will come to a grinding halt. And that will enable the consumer driven economy to continue on. Peter: Well, I think that as you pointed out earlier, the economic impulse is to create on the planet, what will then happen in Europe, another developed economy. #Automation #Robots #Dystopia #Workforce #Education #Economy #TAtech #Nexxt

pendulum and the pendulum would definitely swing back at some point in time when the market and the economy And I'm thinking this platform economy could launch a new kind of social dumping and much more difficult

Cheese for another VOICES episode where they spin through topics like: - Gaming the system with the Gig Economy Is anybody going to make money in this business from the gig economy perspective? Robert: So I'm not a big proponent of the gig economy. I think the gig economy is just another exploitation of a kind of a desperate and dispossess class in #VOICES #RobertRuff #Culture #Discrimination #Work #GigEconomy #Economy

It’s helpful to check the pulse of the recruitment industry from time-to-time. It’s especially useful when the company rep who comes on the show has a newsletter called The Pulse. That’s why we brought industry veteran Michael Woodrow, CEO at Aspen Tech Labs, on the podcast. With over 120K source sites and 9M jobs in their kitty, Michael is able to speak from a position of deep understanding about the labor markets. We discuss job openings, popular trends (ChatGPT alert!), just how bullish Michael is on ZipRecruiter and whether or not a hard or soft landing is on the offing. Tune in and get smarter. Mike's last interview - Woody's Google for Jobs LOVE/HATE PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions connects jobseekers with disabilities with employers who value diversity and inclusion.​ Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah, if you don't know, ask your parole officer. What's up, kids? You're listening to the Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, joined us always, the Dr. Dre to my Snoop Dogg, Chad Sowash is in the house. And we welcome Michael Woodrow, President at Aspen Tech Labs. Michael, welcome back to the show. It's been a minute. Mike Woodrow: Hi guys. How's it's going? Joel: Doing well. Doing well. Those listeners who don't know you or are new in the last four years, tell them about Michael Woodrow. Mike Woodrow: So, yeah, it's Micheal Woodrow, President of Aspen Tech Labs. What Aspen Tech Labs does is we kind of power the back of the Internet job postings, the backbone. We move a lot of jobs from company sites directly to our about 300 customers, job boards, advertising platforms, etcetera. So we collect job postings daily, or more often, kind of clean them up and move them into platforms like ZipRecruiter and Dice and The Muse. Chad: Talk about you, Mike. Talk about you. You're in Cally right now. You're usually on the slopes in Aspen. Joel: Company headquartered in Aspen. Yeah, Mike has as a tough life. Mike Woodrow: I'm an executive recruiter by training. So I had an executive recruiting firm. I come from that background, so I kind of know what it takes to fill positions. I've filled hundreds of recruiting positions, senior positions. Still have involvement in a recruitment firm, but that's how I got into the space. And then in the early 2000s, I launched a little job board and used some older technology, and then in about 2005, re-launched it and met my former partner, who's Ukrainian guy. So there's a little Ukrainian story to Aspen Tech Labs, or actually a pretty big Ukrainian story to Aspen Tech Labs now. But that was, we launched Aspen Tech Labs back in 2007 as a job board platform, which we still have called JobMount. So we launched niche job boards for our customers, and then we got into the scraping business, the data collection business, probably in about 2010. Chad: Is that because you guys needed it or you had prospective clients? Mike Woodrow: Our customers were asking for it. Chad: Makes sense. Intro: They were like, "Yeah, all right, you launched this job board for me, I need jobs." And some job boards, or we like to say a lot of job boards, don't want those paid feeds. They want real jobs or they want specific jobs. So that's how we got into scraping, and then now we have about 25 people that we call spider-men and spider-women who do are scraping for us and keep track of all the data that comes in. We scrape about 130,000 companies every day, right now, in a 120 countries. Chad: Damn, that's a lot. Mike Woodrow: So that business started with a couple of customers saying, "Hey, can you scrape some jobs for us?" And we were like, "Okay, we'll figure that out," and now we collect that jobs data, and any kind of data, if you can collect it and normalize it, it's valuable today in 2023. And so we operate mostly in the job space, but we dabble a little bit in auto and in property. A little bit more than dabble in auto, but auto and property are two of our other verticals, actually, and healthcare. So we collect a lot of healthcare data too. So we're really good at collecting data, going back tomorrow, looking to see if anything's changed and then collect what's changed or aggregate it and normalize it. Joel: How many job board clients are on your software platform? How many job boards are you powering right now? Mike Woodrow: We have about 100 job board clients. Joel: Okay. Refresh my memory. The origin of that was like for SEO, I remember. Like have all your jobs search friendly and indexable. Am I right about that? It's been a while. Mike Woodrow: Yeah, that was, I used this older technology when I launched my first job board and I launched it, and nobody could find the jobs. They weren't out there. Joel: You weren't alone. Mike Woodrow: So that was a big piece of me moving over to this platform that now is JobMount, that the jobs are all very well organized and set up for Google to easily find them. Chad: Let's rehash a little bit of our last conversation, and kids, we'll have a link in the show notes on this one so you can listen to that one. But back in January of 2019, the three of us got together and we talked about some things that are still being talked about today. One of those being Google For Jobs. So there's been a huge change and shift, and will it be there, and will it go away? And then here as of late, we start to see that they're beta testing paid jobs. So your thought back then was that Google is going to be a force. Google For Jobs is going to be a force. The question is, today, do you think it's gonna be a force for good for the rest of the ecosystem? Joel: Or evil? Mike Woodrow: The ChatGPT thing is really interesting to see where that's going. Joel: Oh you jumped right into that, didn't you? Oh my God. Mike Woodrow: But it's certainly a big competitor that we didn't even think about back in 2019 about Google. But a friend of mine is a senior person at Google, and he tells me that Google cares about making it easy for people to find whatever they want on Google. They obviously make a lot of money doing that, but they wake up every morning thinking about, is it a good visitor experience for someone to come and find whatever they want; a restaurant, a job, a car, whatever? And so they're still very focused on that. So jobs fits into that. And one thing that we're seeing with them recently, I'm a big... I don't know about advocate. I'm bullish on Google For Jobs. I think it works really well. It's clean. If I were a company, and I say this all the time, make sure your jobs are getting on Google For Jobs. It's free clicks. Why pay Indeed if they're putting your jobs on Google For Jobs and your jobs aren't optimized? That's something, just it's easy to do. So I think it's super important. Mike Woodrow: I do think it's gonna be a good thing for the industry. People are putting... One thing that they're focused on these days is addresses. Most job posting surprisingly don't have street addresses, but Google wants to, between their mapping and between everything, they want the job postings to be very specific because people search on things like jobs near me or X jobs near me or something. So addresses is something that is super important and becoming more important. They're telling their most important partners, unfortunately, we're not one of them apparently, but they're telling some of our partners that you need to put street addresses on job postings. Joel: Is mapping coming, you think? Mike Woodrow: Yeah, so, man, if you think about it, you think someone would wanna say, "Hey, this is where I drive my kid to school," or, "This is where I do whatever. What jobs are gonna be near there?" Or, "What jobs are gonna be around?" And that technology should exist. So I think it's super interesting. The paid thing, I don't really think it's a big threat to the industry or anything, so I'm actually a little surprised that they're monetizing it, but they're trying to monetize it. There's no question that they're more serious about it. They've been doing updates to their algorithm. We follow really closely. They've been doing updates to their jobs algorithm about 3-4 times a year for the last two years. So they're on this. Joel: Why are you surprised they're monetizing it? Chad and I have been predicting it for about eight years now, like before the show started. Why are you surprised by that? They are a for-profit business, right? Mike Woodrow: Yeah, I don't know that it'll be super easy for them to monetize it, I guess, but maybe it will. I don't know. Joel: It's like Indeed in the early days. All I need is about a dozen clients to pay me a ton of money to get their jobs indexed or higher in the search rankings. They don't need a million clients. They need a few job boards. They already have LinkedIn and ZipRecruiter. They'll pay them a few million dollars a month, I would assume to have their jobs... Mike Woodrow: Yeah, I just don't know if that's gonna move... It's gotta be a big chunk of money to move the needle for Google, and so you're talking about, is there a $5 billion opportunity for them? I don't know, maybe. Chad: Well, which is why they got out of the APIs, what, the search APIs and Google Hire. They saw that the trajectory for Google Cloud in other aspects of business were just bigger, much bigger opportunity. So are you surprised they shut down those other two platforms and they kept this one going? Why do that? Why not just go ahead and keep search the way it is? But they can't make that kind of money if they're ejected out of this. Joel: You don't think the math nerds at Google believe that they can't make that kind of money? There are enough agencies, enterprise businesses and job boards. Chad: Did you think they thought about that when they built an applicant tracking system? Joel: Yeah, that was spaghetti at the wall. Clearly, Google For Jobs is a real business, they think, which is why they've launched a pay-per-click component to it. I think it's beyond the testing-and-see-what-happens phase. Mike Woodrow: Yeah, and I think also, if they can be successful, then maybe there's something they can do in autos or there's something they can do in some other verticals. I really thought that the Google For Jobs thing was really a keep using Google, come to Google for everything, jobs too. That's where I thought they were going with it. Chad: That makes sense. Yeah. Mike Woodrow: And that did make a lot of sense, but maybe they're trying to see if there's a big enough revenue opportunity, and then if there is, some of these other verticals, like I'm talking about autos, that'd be huge too. Chad: Does it just turn into more arbitrage though? As we're starting to cycle jobs through job board A to ZipRecruiter to Google For Jobs, has it just become a huge arbitrage game at this point? Mike Woodrow: You know, I've always been really negative on the arb game because the candidate experience is just so bad. Chad: It sucks. Oh, yeah. Mike Woodrow: And so we have a good thing in our industry, why screw it up? And so I've always been against the arb piece. It's not that easy to arb, I don't think the Google side. I think it's just the ads are expensive and so it's tougher. I think they're smart about taking a big piece of whatever they do, and so the way the arb works in our industry is there's 20 ¢, 25 ¢ here, 30 ¢ here, and there's people who can kind of scrape a little bit off the top and it works. I think with Google, it's harder to do that. Chad: Any more Google jokes? I'm gonna step to StepStone next. Joel: Go to StepStone. Chad: Okay, so last show we also talked about Europe and about StepStone. Were you surprised that StepStone bought Appcast? And if so, are you surprised what they've done with Appcast thus far? Mike Woodrow: Yeah, StepStone was very open that they were looking for a US opportunity, and they were looking all around, kicking a bunch of tires and everything, looking for a US opportunity. And I don't know the numbers or anything, but I would imagine that Appcast has been a big win for them. Again, like I said, I don't know, the numbers but Appcast numbers have to be down because Amazon was advertising just crazy for a year, a couple of years, and most of that was on the Appcast platform, and they've pulled back really significantly on that. But I think it's a great business. I think the StepStone guys were smart. A whole bunch of their businesses are our clients all over the world, our customers all over the world, Sun Group, Totaljobs, PNet in South Africa, all these are StepStone businesses, so they've got businesses kind of all over. Joel: Did they leave money on the table though? A lot of people think they sold for a little too cheaply. Mike Woodrow: Appcast? Joel: Yeah. $72 million, I think was the number. Mike Woodrow: I think had Appcast knew what was gonna happen with COVID and advertising and everything like that, sure, but... Joel: Hindsight? Mike Woodrow: $72 million for a relatively small business is a good number. Joel: It'll buy a lot of beer. Mike Woodrow: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: Well, it's interesting... Mike Woodrow: Yeah, so I think those guys did okay. We don't have to worry about them. Chad: I think it's interesting StepStone has retracted out of France. We started to see some chinks in the armor. Totaljobs, they're going through some changes. I think they're preparing for IPO. So there's some big changes, I think, happening at StepStone. Do you think we will see Appcast start to finally gain some traction from a usage standpoint in Europe? Because the US is one thing. Europe is an entirely different ball game. Mike Woodrow: I don't think I have a good perspective on that. You're right, it is. It's completely different. The UK, is kind of a solid, really established market, and then the rest of Europe is just a little bit piecemeal. But yeah, Appcast has not taken hold in Europe as strongly, but I know they're working on it. I know they're working on it. They're definitely focused on it. And I think their business model makes sense. Chad: It's kind of hard for them though, because their business model on how they actually, they won, let's just say, programmatic early, was to be the rails for agencies, for programmatic and performance-driven advertising. So they powered all of the agencies and then they were bought by StepStone. So at this point, it's kind of like, will they or won't they? You've got the RecruitX who was, obviously they bought KRT. You've got Pando that's out there. You have now all these competitors who could perspectively take advantage of some of the StepStone IPO focus, more focused on that than the actual market itself. Mike Woodrow: Yeah, Appcast is super focused on direct customers. They started with the agencies, but then moving over, and like you said before, getting the top customers, starting there first and taking that agency piece out of the equation, I think they're gonna be successful. Chad: So that didn't work for Monster and it didn't work for Careerboat. It hamstrung them. What makes you think it's gonna work for Appcast, to be able to go direct to client instead of through the agencies? Mike Woodrow: Well, yeah, I guess I don't have the full answer. I'm a big fan of Appcast. I think these guys are smart. I think that they're trying to make sure that the visitor experience is high quality. They're trying to work on things that some of the other guys don't care so much about it, and I think that over time, they're gonna build share. Chad: Last year we also talked about ZipRecruiter, and you were very bullish on them. And you said that pretty much their brut force ability is driving their success, but that brut force seems to have gone limp over the last couple of years. What the hell's happening at ZipRecruiter? Mike Woodrow: They are super focused and have been super focused on SMB, so the middle piece of the market. So they had their layoffs, Indeed had their layoffs. Once you're a public company, the game changes. And so I'm thankful, I would assume you guys are thankful you don't have to report quarterly, I'm thankful that I don't have to report quarterly, and I'll always be up over last year. Joel: My wife wants weekly reports, by the way, which can be more brutal than public markets, but that's a different show. Mike Woodrow: Yeah, so I think once you go public and you have quarterly reporting responsibilities, the game changes and you just really have to dial it down. But we work super closely with those guys. I'm still bullish on ZipRecruiter. They're smart guys. I think their advertising is pretty cool. Joel: Do you own shares? Do you own the stock? Mike Woodrow: I don't. Joel: Okay. So not that bullish. Mike Woodrow: I just feel like I'm long enough into some of our customers that I don't really need to own their shares. I've got a bigger stake than some shareholders do. Yeah, so I think to have a direct pipe into Google and some places like this, they're working on some really cool things, and I think they care about the visitor experience. I know they care about the visitor experience. I know for sure they do because we've got a product called Jobs Control, that we follow clicks through to see where they land and they're a customer on that product, so they care. They wanna know. They distribute their jobs. They wanna know what the situation is for the visitors, and that's rare. Chad: So talking about scraping, talking about labor market information and getting the pulse on what the hell is happening right now, you guys scrape... You've been scraping data forever. How long have you been warehousing that? How long have you been being able to analyze that? What's the whole back story and how much data warehousing do you have? Mike Woodrow: So we started collecting data for our customers and configuring it for them. So if we scraped for Dice, they want the data delivered this way, if we scraped for ZipRecruiter, they want it delivered it this way. So we weren't very smart about it in the beginning. We just collected it, configured it and send it on. And then we realized we've got this huge pool of data because not only are we scraping Amazon and Walmart, but customers kind of come and go. Like this month, for instance, we added... I just looked at the report. We get a daily report, we added about 430 new scrapes and about 330 scripts were cancelled, so just customer flow. That's pretty normal. And so there's very few months that are down, so we're a few down months recently, which I think is not a big surprise with the industry. So there's always scrapes being added and scrapes being subtracted. And so what we decided to do was take all these scrapes that were being cancelled and continue scraping them and collecting the data. Now we've got this data, but we had eight fields for Dice and 10 fields we were collecting for ZipRecruiter and everything, and we looked at the data and we were like, "God, this is a mess." Mike Woodrow: So it took about two years to really figure out how we could aggregate it. Because you think of all these job postings are the same, but they're really not. They're looking at things differently. There's a couple extra fields. Somebody's adding an industry classification, someone's adding this, whatever. And so it took us a couple of years. We launched this big jobs data quality project, both for our customers and to aggregate and normalize the data. So that took a couple of years, and last year, in about the middle of 2022, we felt like we were at the point where, okay, we've got this data normalized and we can make some sense of it. And so that's where it all started. And we have some historical data going back further than that, but not too much further than the middle of last year. So now we're starting to build it and we have a big... Everything we do is AWS, Amazon Web Services. I'm a big advocate of those guys, and Amazon's a customer too. They have a job board called AWS Educate, so we work closely with those guys. Joel: Such a name dropper. Mike Woodrow: Right, you gotta throw out a couple of them. Chad: Smart man. Mike Woodrow: Google, Amazon. We have some good customers. Joel: Amazon, ZipRecruiter, I know all the famous people. Let's bring us back into 2023. The Pulse, you talked about it, a lot of data, a lot of things you guys are finding out. Give us a 30,000-foot view of the current state of employment and workforce issues. Chad: Date of the Union of Jobs. Mike Woodrow: Yeah. So we have Job Market Pulse. We're putting out quarterly reports and some other things like that. One thing that that we look at that's really interesting is we have all of the S&P 500 companies in our database. So it's easy to see, "Hey, what's going on with S&P 500 companies? Is that representative of the US or not?" Kind of think it is because it includes the Walmarts of the world and some of the big hiring companies, and then it includes Exxon and some of the Microsoft and companies like that. So back in November, they had about a million job postings out there available. And remember, all of our data comes directly from the company sites, not from job boards where maybe they're duplicating things or they're doing whatever. This is directly from the company site. Joel: Is that global or US? Just so I know. Mike Woodrow: So that's US. Joel: US? Okay. Mike Woodrow: The number I'm giving you is US, about a million jobs US in November, and now that total is dropped below 800,000 jobs. So that's a pretty big reduction in job counts. More than 20% since November, and now we're sitting here at the end of March. Joel: So what the Fed hopes to happen is happening ultimately. They want fewer... Mike Woodrow: Yeah. And so, I've been in this game for a long time, since the '90s, so my perspective really is that when employment was really ridiculously low, kitchens and everybody was short staff, okay? So everyone knows that, restaurants open four days a week, all that kind of stuff. Over the last six months, that has started to fill in, and I think that's why we're seeing very low numbers on new claims for unemployment, even though we're hearing about all these kind of layoffs. So all those positions started to kind of fill in and we're getting to the point where I think they're full. You hear about hiring is still challenging, but people have filled position. And now we've got all these IT and these kind of more senior level positions that were announced and that just takes six months or so to work their way through. Mike Woodrow: People get a couple months of pay, the big companies have to give 60 days I think, and then they pay a couple months after that. So we're still in that cycle that a lot of those people are still kind of in between, kind of working or not working whatever, and I think it's gonna be a soft landing. I really do. I think it's gonna be a soft landing and we'll end up somewhere around 4%, 4.5% unemployment, which is I think good for the country and it's certainly good for our industry. Joel: And something that's good for my life is that Taco Bell is the number one employer in the polls. So that means a lot of people are still going to Taco Bell, which is good for me. I wanted to point that out. How much of it is... All right. You mentioned ChatGPT, all these tech people are being unemployed, but we're seeing hundreds of new apps being built around ChatGPT, companies hiring AI folks. Obviously, it's gonna be a huge thing with all the big guys; Google, Facebook, Amazon. They're all gonna get in this game. How much impact are you seeing job postings for ChatGPT, job postings for AI, what are you seeing in the polls in terms of AI? Mike Woodrow: AI is you, guys have been at conferences, people have been talking about AI in our space for the last, I don't know, five or 10 years. Joel: Yes. Mike Woodrow: You don't see that much kind of coming into play. But I'll tell you what's some things that are really happening. Now, one is ChatGPT, the date is old, right? Joel: Yeah, '21. Mike Woodrow: September, 2021, and that'll come quicker and quicker and quicker. Will it get to real time, what we call realtime, one or two days old? I'm not sure how long it's gonna take to get there. That's a lot of data and processing that. So I think, for our industry, I'm not sure that it's gonna be a huge, huge deal. Here's something that's super cool though. So you ready for me to drop a few names here? Chad: Oh, let's do it. Here we go. Here we go. Mike Woodrow: So my daughter's an AI PhD student at Stanford. Chad: Oh, hello. Mike Woodrow: So serious stuff, right? She's here with me this week and she was coding and she has an extension on her computer that Stanford has access to from ChatGPT. She starts coding and it tries to finish her line of code for her, because it knows what she's doing. Seriously, I watched it. And after she does it, she'll run it through and it'll say, "Hey, here's a better way to do this." And I use this example with her, I'm like, "Is it like Google translate that if you don't really know what you're saying, you're not really sure what's coming back?" And she's like, "Exactly." But if you know what you're doing, it's telling you a better way to do something. So she's actually making a presentation to our team tomorrow about how they can use ChatGPT to be quicker with their coding and more efficient with their coding. So that's some cool stuff. SFX: Shall we play a game. Mike Woodrow: That's being used now. That's not like next year, next month Elon Musk says. Joel: So bring that into our space. Don't you think... Chad: Well, that's on demand QA/QC. That's what's happening right now, right? Joel: Yeah. Mike Woodrow: Yeah. Chad: But that could literally be taken over after it's been trained enough. Mike Woodrow: Yeah, her argument is, at this point, you still need someone who's smart enough to see what's happening. Is it doing what you want, what you really wanted it to do, or just what it thinks you wanted it to do? So that's cool. And so it's already being used and this is just literally a Chrome extension. Joel: Yeah. So bring this into our space, Mike. I mean, job postings, why couldn't... Same thing. I'm starting to write a job posting and it starts writing it for me. I mean, what vendors, what businesses in our space are gonna be disrupted by what your daughter's seeing on the ground? Mike Woodrow: It'll certainly make it easier to write a job posting and things that are important like, "Hey, could you check job posting for diversity and inclusion?" Joel: Rejection letter. Mike Woodrow: They'll say, "Hey, here's a better way to say this", or, "Here's this." The thing that I think is super interesting is it's easy to generate content. So Google is, the search engines and everyone are the really big on original content. So what is original content gonna be like starting a month ago? Joel: Well, there'll be new tools and there already are that make it sound more organic. They'll take the AI wrote this and they'll rewrite it and AI can't... It'll be like this game of Whack-a-Mole. Mike Woodrow: There's already tools that can say, "Did AI write this?" Joel: Yeah, and there are tools that will rewrite the AI, so that AI can't say that AI wrote it. [laughter] Mike Woodrow: Yeah, exactly. Chad: So, a question, are companies like Textio in mortal danger? Joel: Yes. Chad: I mean, why do I need to spend the kind of money that Textio wants me to spend when I can just hook up a Chrome extension and and have a nice day? I mean, is it pretty much their day in the sun is over or they just need to sell as soon as humanly possible? Mike Woodrow: They're gonna be under pressure, but good companies adapt to new technology. So if they can help people use AI to do a better job writing and not instead of having a 1000 customers have 10,000 and charge them half as much, I don't know. I mean that's what I would be thinking about if I were them. Joel: Michael's so diplomatic. Chad: He is. He's bright and shiny too. It's like, I'm happy just talking to him. I don't get this just having a regular conversation with Joel, Mike. Thanks, man. [laughter] Mike Woodrow: I mean, what about you guys? ChatGPT is gonna create podcast. Joel: This is our show, Mike. This is our show. [laughter] Mike Woodrow: What if they created a podcast that were actually funny? No, I'm just kidding. [laughter] Joel: Oh, damn. Chad: That's a very good question. We already have our voices cloned by Veritone, so being able to actually generate the content, and then, yeah. Joel: You literally could do our show without us at this point in multi-languages, which is crazy. Chad: Five different languages at this point. So at the end of the day, when we're talking about the actual job polls, what's the biggest insight that you saw out of this information over the past, let's say, three months? Mike Woodrow: The biggest insights that we see and the thing that we're getting the most customer attention from is from the wage benchmarking. And we say wage benchmark, it's who's hiring and what are they offering? Because the recruiters don't really have control over the pricing, the wages, but they do have input into, "Hey, we're not filling these positions." And one of the reasons is because Taco Bell is paying $2 more in our market than than we are at Walmart or wherever. So yeah, I think that's the most interesting and that's something that's still evolving, or 20% States are starting to put the regulations in, and you guys, at least I say I know this, candidates wanna see it. They wanna see what what it is. Chad: Yes, of course. Mike Woodrow: And I think recruiters really want candidates who really want the job to apply. So, even though companies don't necessarily wanna post it, the Chambers of Commerce and everyone are kind of fighting that in each State, but it's coming. And I think that's the most interesting data I think that's out there. Joel: Mike, I wanna get your take on remote. The world has changed since we last spoke and remote jobs have obviously been a big topic on our show. Talk about, are the big metros dying? Are job postings moving elsewhere around the country? Are multiple postings for the same job being posted in different areas and is that skewing the actual number of open jobs? How many jobs do you see out there that actually are remote and really promote the fact that they are remote? Talk about that. Mike Woodrow: Yeah, so we track the remote job postings and very few jobs actually put remote in the job title, less than 5%. And part of that's because you need to have a location for a job. It's just the way that the old school systems are set up. You have to put a city in or something. So that's part of that, that's why they pop the remote up in the job title. But Apple and the financial services, companies want people back in the office. So my son works for a company called Dataminr and they collect breaking news from social media. It's a big company in New York. It's like a thousand people or whatever. But they have a whole bunch of people who are fully remote forever. So I really think it's gonna be company by company. But I think Google's got people in the office, what, three days a week. They're having a little more trouble in the US than they're having in other locations. Like in France, they're in the office three days a week. That's just, everybody's in the office. Mike Woodrow: And so I think people are gonna come back into the office. I do, I think they are. I don't think it's gonna be five days a week, but I do think people will want to come back into the office, and companies, we haven't talked about the Ukraine thing at all, but when people aren't in the same place, it's a little harder to collaborate and we're constantly building new products and everything and good companies are doing that. Being together makes it easier. And just kind of you hear about these companies who are saying, "Oh yeah, we're gonna meet once a quarter in wherever and we're gonna bring everybody in from all over and do that," I don't know. That's pretty expensive and that seems like it's not really practical to do that over the long run. I think people are gonna come back in the office on some kind of a three day week basis and that's gonna become the new normal over time. That's just my perspective. Chad: So, real quick, talk about Ukraine, because you did have and probably still currently have workers that are in Ukraine. I mean, how did that disrupt business? It had to have because it disrupted their lives. How did that disrupt and and how did you at that point start to work toward a solution for them? Mike Woodrow: We have an amazing team and we kind of call it family. So there's 60 people in our company. Right before the war started, we moved a handful of people out to Portugal and Poland because I was worried about power and internet. That's what I was worried about, and that's what most of us were worried about. And then obviously this happened. So we have 45 people still in Ukraine and the people are amazing. Chad: Wow. Mike Woodrow: We have not lost a single customer over the war. So nobody was disrupted. People needed something to do other than worry about the war. So our people decided to work. And so that was awesome for our customers and for the company. The people are fatigued now. The people who are still there are really tired, really tired of this, and I could imagine it. Joel: Yeah, of course. Mike Woodrow: One of my guys is having his first baby, his wife's having her first baby in a few days, lives by an anti-missile battery. So that thing's firing at night. Joel: Geez. Mike Woodrow: Just something you just don't think about. So the people are amazing, customers have not been disrupted because of, there we go, with AWS, oh, here's another plug I'll put, Starlink is fricking awesome. Absolutely awesome. I'm not a huge Elon Musk guy. Joel: And I've got Elon on speed dial right now. Mike Woodrow: That stuff... Joel: Elon's coming out to Aspen next week. Mike Woodrow: That stuff works. And we've got a handful of those things that we put in place after the war started. So we got equipment, some of it was delivered to Ukraine, some was Portugal, we moved over to Ukraine and that stuff works great. So, resilient people and I think we did a pretty good job as soon. As a war started, we told everyone, "Move wherever you want. Take with you whoever you need and we'll pay for it until further notice." So thanks to our customers for supporting all that. But that took the pressure off I think. People felt like, if I'm staying, I'm here 'cause I wanna be, not because I have to stay and I can't figure out what to do. So yeah, so it's been tough, but the people are great and we built a good company and I think, hopefully we reward the people so that they feel like it's a quid pro quo. [applause] Joel: That's Michael Woodrow, everybody. President at Aspen Tech Labs. Michael, for our listeners that wanna connect with you or learn more, where would you send them? Mike Woodrow: Just mike@aspentechlabs.com or as Chad knows even better, at lana@aspentechlabs.com. [laughter] Chad: Lana! Mike Woodrow: Yeah, big shout out to Lana. Joel: And with that, I'm headed to Taco Bell. Chad, another one is in the can. Thank God I didn't throw my dockers away from the '90s 'cause I'm going back to the office. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to, what's it called, a podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know, and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one cheddar; blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

This is where the gig economy is going. Shit's going to get crazy and that goes into our economic outlook as a whole. So I mean, this is becoming bigger than just the economy slowing. For years we've been touting the economy as it's the best that it's ever been. So I think what we're doing is we're not looking at the actual economics of work the way that we should

available workers" end quote is cited by 90% of state and local chambers of commerce as preventing economic

immigration in the U.S., covering both legal and illegal immigration, while highlighting the significant economic Every person, every person economically does five things. contribute the big five inputs to the economy the movies or going to a restaurant or sometimes maybe opening their own restaurant, which makes the economic You had a smaller economy, right? You shrunk the economic pie and people couldn't afford things. But again, the goal isn't to kick them out and shrink the economy.

Europe is surging! Travel is way up, the cash is flowing and employers of all shapes and sizes are embracing the continent, in light of Covid being in the rearview mirror. Most notably, London is the world's hottest new destination for employers and innovative companies, while Spotify is giving us a blueprint for increased retention, greater diversity and salary equality. Why, exactly? Gotta listen. And if that wasn't enough, the boys sit down with Elke Moerenhout, a marketing manager at Jobat, one of the top job boards in Belgium, to chat about the importance of employer brand and how to harness it in the fight for top talent. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. INTRO (14s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (35s): Oh yeah. A nudist group in England has seen the fastest growth in new members since it was founded in 1964. Well, that's one way to beat the heat isn't it? You're listening to the Chad Cheese podcast does Europe. I'm your co-host Joel "buff baking" Cheeseman. Chad (54s): This is Chad "first world problem" Sowash. Lieven (57s): I'm Lieven "my skills are futureproof" Van Nieuwenhuyze Joel (1m 1s): On this episode, London's expanding in my knickers. Spotify stays home in a chat with Jobbot. Let's do this. sfx (1m 11s): Europe has a bunch of countries in Chad (1m 14s): Knickers really? Knickers? Joel (1m 17s): Knickers. It's 1824 knickers. Chad (1m 21s): Ah, Jesus. Well, that's, that's how I feel because I actually had to hard line into my internet because my goddamn computer's wifi adapter is fucking blown or some shit. I don't know. Goddamn Intel. Joel (1m 32s): I love that you worked in hardwire with my nudist colony new, like that was nice. And, I had to work in fastest growth in new members. Hopefully everyone caught that one. We have a smart listenership so they should get that. Chad (1m 43s): They did now. They did now. Yeah. Joel (1m 47s): Lieven how are things in the old country? Has it cooled down a little bit? Lieven (1m 50s): It's heating up again, which is good because I have a swimming pond in my backyard, which needs heating up. Chad (1m 57s): So is it cold? Is it cold at this time right now? Lieven (2m 1s): For me it's too cold to swim. It's 22 degrees. It's Celsius. You don't know what celsius means, but it's cold. It's cold. Joel (2m 8s): That's about what my wife likes in the hotel room. It has to be between 18º and 20ºC. So 22º's not that warm. Lieven (2m 15s): No. Chad (2m 15s): I was gonna say, I was gonna say that's around 70º or is like 68 degrees, right? Lieven (2m 20s): I dunno. It's cold. Chad (2m 21s): 68º. Yeah. It's cold. sfx (2m 23s): Oh hell no. Joel (2m 24s): Not getting in that. Lieven (2m 25s): It's been pretty hot, but now it's it's okay. It's agreeable. It's a nice temperature and it's getting hot again next week. So, but I don't really mind. I like hot. Chad (2m 33s): It's been hot here. We got some rain which has made it incredibly humid. So I went out to mow the lawn yesterday and I felt like I just went swimming, in a swimming pool for God's sakes. Geez. Joel (2m 45s): It is a little soupy, soupy here in the Midwest, for sure. Lieven (2m 49s): Soupy? Joel (2m 49s): So as long as it's too hot in the hot tub, who cares what the temperature is? Chad (2m 54s): Too hot in the hot tub. Joel (2m 55s): Well, shall we get to some shoutouts gentlemen? Chad (2m 57s): Yes! Joel (2m 58s): All right. I'm gonna go first if that's okay? Chad (3m 1s): Okay. Joel (3m 1s): All right. Shout out to the European travel surge everybody. It's not just the nudists in the UK that are surging. Haha. The number of international travelers heading to Europe is surging to according to hotel giants, Hilton and Marriott quote "Europe's on fire with a huge surge in business" end quote, they added Europe is now trending above 2019. Specifically Marriott's CFO said "RevPAR that's revenue per available room". I didn't know that. And most of our listeners probably don't either. Chad (3m 38s): Nope. Joel (3m 38s): In Europe surpassed 2019 levels in June marking a 50 percentage point increase from January. Moreover Airbnb's growth in Europe is incredibly healthy with now six of the top 10 cities for Airbnb rentals. Now in Europe, shout out to surging Europe. And I'll add that Chad and I will see you all again real soon. Chad (4m 2s): Very, very soon. Lieven? Lieven (4m 3s): My shout out goes to Bernard Marr and he's a futurist and a column writer for Forbes. And he has written a book on future skills and I'm going to read the full title, Future Skills: The 20 Skills and Competencies Everyone Needs to Succeed in a Digital World. And Rika, our CEO, my boss asked me recently to write an article about future skills and about constant learning and education cetera. And because Bernard already did, I don't have to. So thank you, Bernard. Shout out Joel (4m 32s): Any of the, any of the skills you can share so that I can pass them on to my teenage kids. Lieven (4m 37s): Well, I only read 14 out of 20 and I thought, okay, I'm going to pass the test, my skills are future proof. So I stopped reading afterwards, but basically it's all digital as we thought and now it's not true. It's not true. It's about innovation and creativity and, but you have to read a book. I'm not going to give away his key takeaways because he probably wants to sell some copies. Joel (5m 3s): Does virtual reality make the list? That's really what I wanna know. Metaverse and virtual reality kids. Chad (5m 11s): Oh my God. Yeah. So, okay. My shout out's gonna align more with Joel's but well, I don't know. Future proofing energy. My shoutout is to European gas prices. Now let's put this in into context kids because here in the US, we get pissed. We get our feathers ruffled when it's above $5 a gallon. And in Europe today, it's more like $7.50. sfx (5m 37s): What did you say? Chad (5m 39s): So luckily they have amazing infrastructure for the most part, trains, boats, all that other fun stuff. Cuz $7 and 50 cents. Shit! Joel (5m 47s): And planes are cheap too. You said, you know, trip, like what is it? 25 bucks to go from? You know, England to Spain. I mean like Ryanair ? Chad (5m 57s): Ryanairs. EasyJets. Yeah. All that shit. You can get the low cost, kinda like the Spirit version, which are actually better, I think in Europe. But yeah, man, you can find some cheap deals. When we didn't get a chance to go to Belgium in November last year, we actually just rescheduled and went to Malta instead. So we flew into Paris and it was 65 euros a piece to fly to Malta, round trip. Joel (6m 25s): And I enjoy it cuz, we went to Canada this weekend and they sell it in liters. So you don't feel as bad when you pay for it in liters, but then you do the math and go, holy shit. Gas is expensive. Lieven (6m 37s): Gas is expensive Chad (6m 38s): Events, baby, where are we going? Joel (6m 39s): Where are we going? Oh, well we're gonna do some American trips, which we're still trying to get Lieven here in the new country. Chad (6m 45s): Yeah. HR tech baby. Joel (6m 47s): Update on that. But he's got Nashville and Vegas hopefully on his travel list. Any word on that? Lieven you gonna join us out there? Lieven (6m 55s): Yep. I will. I will. Chad (6m 56s): Excellent. Joel (6m 56s): Well that was easy. Chad (6m 57s): That was too easy. Joel (6m 58s): And then I dunno, Chad, you're probably going to Portugal on vacation at some point, but yeah, we've got Unleashed in Paris in October. One of our favorite shows that we do during the year. Chad (7m 10s): It's coming. Yeah, no question gonna be there in Paris and then going to take a nice little stint for Q4 in Portugal. Joel (7m 19s): Oo nice. You're basically taking the holidays off from what I understand. Chad (7m 23s): Basically the entire, after we leave Paris, I'm in Portugal until like early January and then I might come back. Joel (7m 33s): It's the Cheese podcast for two months during the holidays, everybody. Chad (7m 36s): Yeah. That's we have internet there for God's sakes. I can do this shit from anywhere I'm on the Spotify plan. TOPICS! Joel (7m 50s): Topics. Let's go to London, everybody. All right. This is from TechCrunch. Despite the downturn companies are looking to London for expansion. We talk a lot about layoffs on the show, but that isn't stopping employers from growing headcount and office space in jolly old England. TechCrunch reported "London in particular remains a key destination for international firms looking to spread their proverbial wings with US unicorns and public companies revealing inaugural or upsized offices in the UK capital and recent months. And closer to home, a bunch of smaller European tech companies have also extended their reach out across the English channel with their first UK hubs" Joel (8m 31s): end quote. And so guys, what do you make of all this loving for Londontown? Lieven (8m 38s): I think it's more like a slight recovery. I mean, so many companies closed their London offices after Brexit, then there was COVID remote work. So London was getting kind of a brain drain or a European drain and now companies are coming back and 40% of those new companies are actually returning companies, just getting back to London, thinking, okay, Brexit, isn't that terrible. They know what's happening now. They feel more secure. They're getting back. And I can also imagine now with remote work, local offices are closed down all over the world, but corporate needs a presentation and of course a presence and a major city like London is better than let's say Reykjavík in Iceland or something. Lieven (9m 22s): There's also legislation, there's tax and not being part of European Union is probably a good thing if you want to decide to lower the taxes to attract companies and all these things to get right make London attractive again. And it's still London and I mean, London is closer to Scotland than Paris is, so we all want to be in Scotland. So Chad (9m 40s): Yeah, if they don't have internet in Scotland, that's a problem. Lieven (9m 44s): They have sheep, so many beautiful sheep. Yes. Joel (9m 46s): Closer to New York too. Chad (9m 49s): Oh, geez. Yeah. Well, it's funny because we take a look at the European taxes and then we take a look at, you know, the US taxes or what we call taxes. And then all we have to do is start to roll in all of the different benefits that we have to pay for, which are really taxes in the first place. So if you actually do that and I think many companies are looking at that. If you look at the amount of money that you're spending on taxes/non-taxes in the US versus Europe, you pay less in Europe, no matter what, and they have universal healthcare and that kind of shit. So what, what I believe, and this is not just Europe, I think we're gonna see, we're gonna see an awakening where people are waking up every day, having that morning stretch, grabbing a cup of coffee, and they're coming to the realization that the American dream is alive and well in Europe. Chad (10m 39s): That's the thing. And it's really, it's blowing my mind because when we take a look at our taxes and obviously we're making kind of like a part-time move to Europe, we did these huge assessments on what's it gonna cost? What do we get? Not just from personal standpoint, but also from a company standpoint. And to me it's much easier -infrastructure, way of life. You know, you're not, greed is not good, all that other fun stuff. So yeah, companies do want to be able to squeeze as much out of their employees as they possibly can, but if they can have great employees, great talents, which is what's drawing these companies to these places, it's not the tax code as much as it's the talent, I think. Joel (11m 23s): Yeah. I'm, I'm glad that Lieven you underscored the Brexit question because I didn't know what kind of impact that had on companies, particularly in Europe and the fact that you underscored that it was a negative at first and it sort of, looks like it's become a positive in Britain being able to sort of make their own rules around taxes and regulations that maybe the EU hinders them with. So I'm glad that you painted that picture for me. Yeah. I think everything you guys said was certainly on the right track, you know, Hooray imperialism, I guess partly spreading English around the world has turned out to be a good thing for globalism. And as companies want to have a middle ground between America and not just America, but North America, South America, as well as having real nice access to Europe is a positive. Joel (12m 14s): And with a lot of geopolitical issues with China and Russia, I think London is becoming a much more amenable place than it has before. The language of business more and more is English. So London becomes kind of an easy center point for English speakers and being able to do business all around the world. And like you guys mentioned regulations. I mean, England is the lowest has the lowest corporate tax rate among all G seven countries. They have research and development tax credits that are really friendly to startups coming over and creating companies. Regulations also make London an ideal place for testing new technologies and product and services. Joel (12m 58s): They have kind of like a sandbox that's friendly to taxes and regulations for startups. England got really good as their empire declined with sort of financial engineering and how to make England a nice place to park money, to spend money, to put companies, just ask the Russian oligarchs that are feeling the pinch that all went to England at one point they're pretty good at this, all the houses. Yeah. And they they've rotated it from yachts, super yachts and mansions to startups and businesses around the world. So I say cheers to London and welcome this new trend to startups and companies headed to London. I think it's good for America as well as Europe. Chad (13m 40s): Okay. So question. Do you enjoy going to Europe in London, let's just say London specifically more or would you rather go to Manhattan? Lieven (13m 49s): Well, Manhattan is even farther away from Scotland, but I think for me, if I was going on a trip, I would go to Manhattan because it's more exotic to us than London is. London is pretty close and I've been to London, lots of times. I've only been to Manhattan a few times, but London is probably more fun to live in. I think so I've never lived in Manhattan. I've spent some time in London, not really living there, but I think I would prefer London. Joel (14m 13s): Is that where you'd start a company? Lieven (14m 17s): If I wanted to start a company, I expect something, I know, so probably I know Europe much better than Manhattan. Manhattan sounds even more expensive than London is. And I mean, the real estate in London used to be terrible. The prices, I mean, not real estate, but now it's getting acceptable because of the drain there has been. So now it's not affordable, it's still expensive, but it's okay. And I think Manhattan is probably one of the most expensive regions in the world, for a startup. You can't just launch something in Manhattan I feel. Chad (14m 51s): It's pretty expensive. Well, I think the lure for anybody, like you had said, it's more exotic to come to Manhattan because London's right there. I think it's the same way for individuals here in the US with London. Joel (15m 2s): It's also interesting how, you know, Dublin for a while was sort of the centerpiece for low taxes and tech companies moving there. And the luster has seemed to come off of Dublin a little bit and it's sort of transferred over to London. And I don't know if that's sort of global SmackDown on tax breaks for those kinds of companies or what exactly is going on. But Dublin to me seems to not be talked about much anymore for tax breaks and companies going over there. And, I'm curious, Lieven your take as well. Do you know, does Paris? Copenhagen? Stockholm? Do those cities and countries follow suit or do they kinda let London have this position as a startup friendly/ business friendly city? Lieven (15m 45s): I think Berlin really tried to be the most startup friendly. I mean, talking about technology, it's Berlin, it's the most hip, the most startup friendly, I guess. Paris has never been the most trendy city. It's just very cultural and it's beautiful, but I don't think they have the image of being the most innovative city. Berlin has. The Nordics all try to be innovative and they are, I guess, in their way. Yeah. So it depends. It's different. They all have their pros and cons. London is nothing that I would associate with as startups. It's more like the city is for the financial institutions. The really big companies, but now there is a new vibe in London, which is a good thing. Joel (16m 27s): Do you feel like EU hinders those countries from being sort of innovative around taxes and regulations to get companies there or are they sort of free to act on their own? Lieven (16m 36s): They can always work around, but the more rules there are the harder it is and there are many rules. Chad (16m 43s): Well, and you talk about Dublin, you know, there's a saturation rate, especially for, you know, a city, the size of Dublin. Joel (16m 52s): Yeah. Chad (16m 52s): And the amount of companies that were going into Dublin was ridiculous. So to be able to get there first and foremost, I mean the lure of lower taxes is one thing. And obviously, you know, trying to open up a footprint in Europe is, is great. If you want a launchpad? They were making it an easy launchpad, but the problem is saturation where London, you have a much larger talent pool and the infrastructure, the transportation to be able to get in and outta work and that type of thing. Yep. Joel (17m 23s): Airport. Chad (17m 24s): Yeah. Airports shit. They've got what, four major fucking airports, you know, I mean, Manhattan has two? Well, I mean, if you include Newark, which you probably should three? For me, take a look at the saturation rates. Probably why we haven't heard much from Dublin lately. Joel (17m 39s): Great point, Chad. Great point. Anything else? Chad (17m 41s): That'd be it. Joel (17m 43s): All right. Let's take a quick break. And we'll talk about Spotify in our recent interview in Belgium. sfx (17m 49s): Europe has a bunch of countries in it. Joel (17m 53s): Well guys from London, let's go to Stockholm, the home of music streaming service Spotify. While many companies saw increased turnover during the great resignation Spotify's turnover actually went down and the company improved diverse representation. Why? Three words work from anywhere. The policy lets employees determine how often they work from the office and where they work. As long as the company has an operation there. The audio streaming service also changed how it sets salary bands and Chad will get a boner over this one, calibrating them by country instead of city or region, a benefit surely appreciated by employees and not just Chad, around 6% of them moved after the policies statement. Joel (18m 46s): Shocker, I know that people prefer choice. So guys, what's your take on Spotify's success. Lieven (18m 50s): They have the perfect business to do so. I mean, they're strictly digital. They don't have any manufacturing of products or whatsoever. So there people can work from home. I mean, if you have a plant and you have a factory and you have to produce stuff, things have to be produced on the spot, there it's a different approach. So for them, it's perfect. And I can imagine it's even cost saving if you don't need so many offices. So I totally understand why they do so, but I was surprised some Joel just said something like the company lets employees decide on half and they work remote where they work from as long as the company has an operation there. So does that mean if I'm living in Belgium during summer? Lieven (19m 31s): Sorry, during winter, but I want to go snowboarding in summer in New Zealand because they have snow in New Zealand when it's summer here. I can't because they don't have an operation there? Is that the way I do I get it right? So they, you can only work from a place at home if they have an operation, there doesn't make any sense to me. Chad (19m 49s): The wording is kind of weird there, but I think if you hit a WeWork while you're snowboarding, I think you'd be okay. Lieven (19m 55s): Okay. Yeah. Doesn't make sense. Otherwise it would be kind of stupid. You can work from home, but only if your home is close to the office. It's like weird. Chad (20m 3s): I thought it was interesting that they talk about, you know, the increase, you know, in diversity and it's like, well, yeah, you got out of Sweden for God's sakes. I mean, that's all it takes you step out of the whitest area in the world and then you go somewhere else. Well, of course, you know, your diversity goes up, but the retention piece is pretty amazing. But I mean, expanding into Europe and Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, and now they're registered in 42 different US states. We're going to see a huge difference in companies who are going to demand back in the office and companies who don't demand that you do anything, but get your shit done. Chad (20m 44s): And this is to me, you know, most of those companies are clinging to a crumbling vestige of the yester century for God's sakes. It's like, can we just allow autonomy and trust to happen? And if people don't get their shit done, what happens? They get fucking fired. And the thing that kills me is, in sales for years forever, we have goals. What happens if we don't hit the fucking goals, we get put on a PIP, a performance plan, right? And if we don't hit the PIP, what happens? We get fired. Why isn't everybody held at the same exact standard? I mean, it, to me just seems incredibly simple. And from a management standpoint, you get to push off a little bit. Yes, you do need to help and provide education and guidance and, you know, mentoring, all those other fun things that you should be doing anyway. Chad (21m 33s): But it's just like, can we just finally evolve out of this old 1950s manufacturing style, punch in the clock, situation that many companies still want to go back to? Joel (21m 42s): Yeah. I think Lieven hit it on the head when he said, you know, it's a perfect business to do this. And there are more and more companies like this, that sort of deal in zeros and ones. Yeah. And those companies will have to have this model, right? Like Airbnb, Twitter, Spotify like that if you don't do that, you're gonna lose talent to your competitors. Chad (22m 5s): You're going to, if you're, like, let's say for instance, if you're an old brick and mortar organization, but you do have tech ops, right. Do you think you're gonna get the same type of talent? Top talent? Joel (22m 18s): No. So, I think what I see is sort of three buckets here. You have like the total knowledge base, we deal in software, et cetera. Those should all be work from anywhere, wherever. Then you have like your DJ Sol and you're Jamie Diamond and Wall Street. They're like, get your ass in the office. We're boiling the frog. This is the way it's gonna be. And then you have this middle ground like Tesla, right? So Tesla is like, get your ass back to work. If you're an accounting, marketing, whatever, because the people who make the cars are in here every day and everyone that supports those people need to be in the office. And those middle ground businesses are gonna be really challenged to hold on to people that don't need to be in the office. Joel (23m 2s): Like, is it, would I rather be a marketing manager at Tesla or would I rather be one at Airbnb? More than likely Airbnb. So Tesla's gonna have to make a hell of a brand message as to why you should go back in the office and work for Tesla. I think they're gonna be really challenged going forward with the workforce. Lieven (23m 24s): And he wasn't particularly subtle on it. Yeah. He wasn't. Chad (23m 26s): He's not subtle on much, especially when he is on a yacht and he looks like the stay puff marshmallow man for God's sake. Joel (23m 34s): He looked a little tan to me. I dunno what you guys are talking about. Like, I mean, there's a great line from Wall Street that says you can't be a little bit pregnant. I mean, those companies are trying to be a little bit pregnant and it's very hard to do. Yeah. Chad (23m 50s): And again, I just think again, we're hanging onto a vestige of what we believe again, it's like make America great again, make work great again. Well, well fuck you. Okay. Work wasn't great for everybody. Okay. Work sucked for a lot of mother fucking people. So why don't we, if we're gonna make it great. Let's make it try to make it great for everybody. If you're in a position where you are in manufacturing and you gotta work a line, well, yeah, you gotta go to work, right. I mean, it is what it is. But to be able to think that you can't be a little bit pregnant. I, that, to me, that parallel is not even close to what we should be talking about here. Chad (24m 31s): There should be variations and autonomy given, but again, you've been given so much rope don't hang yourself. Joel (24m 36s): So, so part of the question to Chad is our conversation that goes back years is, you know, could the iPhone have been created in a work from home world? I don't think it could. And you think that it could. So if at some point we can make Teslas without being in the office, whether that be through automation or VR or whatever, then it becomes a situation where everybody can be at home or work wherever, whenever and however they want. And my guess is that we're gonna try to get to that world as soon as possible. Chad (25m 9s): Yeah. Joel (25m 9s): Because Tesla is gonna lose people to Airbnb and Twitter and Spotify. Lieven (25m 12s): It depends how old you are. I mean, I'm 45 and I've got my family and I've got everything here. And I like it not having to sit in my car for four hours a day and spend more time with my family and be more productive just by not losing time commuting. But my very young colleagues, they don't have a family. They live by themselves and they actually were lonely when they had to work from home because of COVID. And they tried to listen to the same radio station while working at home to get in touch together, to feel kind of bonding. So we're listening to the same music, even though we're out home. So for those people, I think it would be an advantage to offer them a corporate environment, which is a nice office and we have a bar and after work, you have a drink. Lieven (25m 57s): So we need both. And depending on who you want to hire, you have to spotlight one or the other. So you can be kind of pregnant or a bit pregnant depending on who you wanna hire. Chad (26m 8s): Oh yeah. No. And that makes a whole lot of sense though, too, because we're talking about a lot of these kids who, they don't have an experience, they don't have a network. They don't have, you know, they left their friends in high school or college. Right. They're not working with them anymore. So they need to create this new ecosystem in which they exist. And you can't do that from home. So I agree a hundred percent, but then you have to have the managers who are in and they are obviously there to mentor them and grow them. And then when they get to the point where they do have kids, they do have a house and they're sick of the fucking office and the commute, they get an opportunity to say, I'm gonna punch the button and I'm gonna work from home. Lieven (26m 49s): That's right. Joel (26m 49s): And, to me like the companies that say, all right, three days a week, we're going in and then two days, we're not. I don't, I don't think you're achieving what Spotify is by saying work whenever you want, however you want. The challenge to me is yes, young people that want to go five days a week and socialize and go to happy hour and meet people. That's great. But the executives like Lieven that are like, I don't wanna go in ever. What is the balancing act for Lieven to say, okay, I can go in this many days or this time and I'm comfortable with that, without looking like he doesn't care about the young people that he's mentoring. I think there's a balance there that will have to work itself out because I've worked at organizations where the vacation time is, well, take as much time as you want, whenever you want. Joel (27m 36s): You know, just let us know when you're gone. What happens is no one takes vacation because everyone feels guilty about it. Whereas you, if they said, okay, two weeks of the year, you have to leave or you lose it, then you feel fine taking vacation. So I'm hesitant to say, a lot of people in organizations are gonna be like, oh yeah, you can work whenever you want, wherever you want. But it's sort of understood that if you're not there, , you're fucked Lieven (28m 3s): Could be right. Definitely. Chad (28m 4s): Again, this is an evolution which the pandemic made happen and demonstrated to everybody that this shit can be done. It was done. It, you know, not to mention, we've seen wage increases those types of things. So, you know, many bad things happen during the pandemic, but this actual kick in the nuts to business, it was good. It was good. We need change. We need to get out of this comfort zone. Joel (28m 27s): Yeah. The gravitational pull to me is work wherever, whenever that's, where it's going and how it gets there. I don't know. There'll be a lot of bumps along the way. But to me, that's essentially like when Brian Chesky from Airbnb says in 10 years, this is how it's gonna be. I think he's right. But how we get there is gonna be a little ugly sometimes, a little bumpy. Yeah. Lieven (28m 47s): But for companies like Spotify, this is perfect. And I was just thinking now you were asking about, would you rather be a marketing manager at Airbnb or at, at Tesla? Whatever. I was thinking, what if I was a marketing manager today at Spotify? And I was planning on the future of Spotify, new products, how can Spotify grow, et cetera, because they are big in music, but maybe they should try new new sectors. So I thought, okay, how can they grow? And maybe they, they could go into live streaming of events around, of course they're back in podcast already, they have Chad and Cheese podcast, but maybe why not audio books like audible? They do have some audiobooks, I think but not that many. Lieven (29m 30s): So that could be a thing. Spotify learning, all those people in the car, sitting, driving, losing time, listening to Chad and Cheese, they could be learning French, let's say. Essential French for truck drivers, something like that. Joel (29m 40s): French for truck drivers, there's our next million dollar business kids. Lieven (29m 45s): Could be so cool. I mean, you sit in the truck learning how to say the gasoline is too expensive in French. I mean, it's something you need. Joel (29m 53s): And look, people have talked about Spotify as an acquisition target, right? So they've talked about Netflix buying Spotify and combining, you know, video with the audio portion. But then Netflix has separate, may have separate work situations in Spotify. So there's gonna be things like acquisitions. You know, companies are gonna hit bad times. They're gonna close offices. They're gonna produce headcount. Like all that stuff is gonna be ugly and part of the messy equation to how this thing works. But yeah, I just think the gravitational poll is leaning toward work from anywhere. Chad (30m 28s): Well, and I think our interview with Elke where she focuses to an extent on work life balance is apropo for this podcast. Joel (30m 37s): Yep. As, as Elke said in her interview quote, "my mission is to make everyone happy at work". And she goes into detail as, how companies should be looking at that. She also says she doesn't want Trump in Europe, which I think we can all get behind. Chad (30m 50s): You're wasting it. Come on. Let's get, so let's get to the interview. Joel (30m 56s): This is, so this is Elke Moerenhout how she's the Marketing Manager at Jobat in Belgium and it was a great interview. So enjoy that. We'll be back to close the show. I wanna welcome Elke Moerenhout she is Marketing Manager at Jobat.be that's J O B A T . B E Chad (31m 20s): Dot.be Joel (31m 20s): Elke, thanks for joining us. Cheers. Cheers. Elke (31m 24s): Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Well, glad to be here. Joel (31m 26s): Yes. Chad (31m 26s): Yes. Nothing like a little beer during a conference having an interview. Joel (31m 33s): Yeah and our listeners won't see this, but Elke has the coolest glasses, like Euro to the max glass collection. Chad (31m 37s): It is pretty sweet. Joel (31m 39s): On her face that I could never, ever pull off. Chad (31m 41s): You could never pull that off. Joel (31m 43s): Yeah. And unfortunately, as listening to this, she can't appreciate it. Yeah. But anyway. Chad (31m 45s): If you were here though, you should be getting, I mean, you know, we are not, so you should be definitely getting the FOMO right now. Joel (31m 52s): But then we'll figure out how to connect with Elke. Chad (31m 54s): Yes. Joel (31m 54s): And if you just want, see some cool eyewear on LinkedIn. Chad (31m 58s): That's it! Just go to LinkedIn and you can hook up. So, okay. Elke right out of the gate had a presentation earlier this morning. What was it about? Joel (32m 10s): A keynote. Chad (32m 10s): Presentation. Keynote. Elke (32m 11s): A keynote presentation. Well, I talked about recruiting in 2022. And what is it about to what it is about to find the right candidate? Because employers or recruiters are having the worst time finding the right people. Chad (32m 28s): Yeah. Elke (32m 28s): And it's because the game has changed so much. The amount of active job seekers today are so low. Chad (32m 33s): Why has that changed? Why has that changed though? I mean, we have the same people. So why has that changed? Elke (32m 42s): Well, because everybody's working, everybody's at work who can work, works. Chad (32m 47s): Okay. Elke (32m 47s): And, but what we do know is that one out of three employees is not happy in his job. Chad (32m 54s): Yeah. Elke (32m 55s): And that is something that I, Joel (32m 57s): Is it that low? Elke (33m 0s): I have difficulty understanding that. Why do you want to do something that you do every day and not be happy? So my mission is to make everyone happy at work. So, and in part of that's adding the candidates, it's also adding the recruiters of triggering, inspiring those candidates to try and to jump! Just jump, take the jump, and start actively seeking for a job that you love. Chad (33m 29s): Here's the thing. In the US we have for the last, at least 40 years have lived to work, right? In Europe it's been different. I mean, you guys do have more of an equilibrium around work, life balance, those types of things. So you can see like in the US, we've had huge problems during COVID because we're starting to call people who do essential jobs. That's what they are. They are now starting to understand that they are essential, which before they were never told they were essential. Now they know they are. Right. Yeah. And now they want more money now they're not taking the bullshit. Right they are looking for another job. Now in Europe. Elke (34m 2s): Okay. Chad (34m 2s): Trying to bridge here. How's that been? Has it been the same kind of thing? Has it been different? Tell us a little bit about that. Elke (34m 11s): Well, if I look at Belgium, I think that COVID has really changed the way we work and the work life balance has even become more important because if you look at the Netherlands there, the work life balance is much more integrated than it was in Belgium before COVID. And I think that COVID made us realize how precious time at home is and time with our family. So, and being, or having this better balance between work and home just makes it more sane in the head. And it gives you more peace. So it's like circular and you, by getting more peace or rest, well, you're more fresh to start the job the day after. Elke (34m 57s): So for me, that is one of the positive evolutions of COVID for Belgians who were, I think, a bit more work, work, work, and homework was not as integrated as it was in other countries. Chad (35m 11s): Or France. Elke (35m 12s): In the Netherlands before if France, I think it's Chad (35m 14s): They do have a balance. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. So that sounds very American. Doesn't it? A little Joel (35m 20s): A little bit, maybe we're becoming a little bit more European and they're becoming a little more American. Chad (35m 24s): We might be finding that equilibrium finally. Yes. I don't know. I don't know. You can have Trump by the way, then we'll just go ahead and we'll call it even. Elke (35m 38s): Nope. Don't want him. Joel (35m 39s): You're a branding person. Elke (35m 40s): Yeah. Joel (35m 41s): You wave that flag proudly. And we heard earlier today in a presentation, no one has loyalty to a company. The first day in, they're already thinking about how do I get outta here? Where do I go? I'm gonna leave at some point. If that is true, there's no loyalty. Then to me, it's hard to argue that brand matters. In that world the only thing that matters is what do you paying me? What's the job? Can I do what I want to do in my off hours? I assume you don't agree with that. Elke (36m 12s): I don't totally agree with that because whether you like it or not, people do like stability. And in the world, like today, where in my case, for instance, in the last 10 years, I had quite a few reorganization in the companies that I had. It's it's hard. So yes, you are seeking something you like or a job that where you are happy at. And maybe we are more on the lookout now for being happy, becoming happy in our jobs. But once we found that, I think that you do have some kind of loyalty to where you work. Elke (36m 52s): I think that being proud of where you work is also important. And, a lot of people have it. Maybe it's more questioning ourselves. Are we happy where we are now? And maybe we will change. And that is maybe because why people are saying that people aren't loyal anymore, but once you found something you like. Joel (37m 11s): But do you like the brand that you're working for? Or you do you just like the job? Elke (37m 17s): When I started looking out for this job, I was looking for a company where to feel good, where there are people where I feel good, the job at itself. Joel (37m 28s): Yeah. How important do you think like the flex is? How important is it that to be able to say, I work for Google. I work for Facebook. I work for Microsoft. Is that still important in today's world? Elke (37m 42s): No, that doesn't matter. Yeah. It matters what you love to do. That's what Jim Carroll told it's about doing something you like to do, being happy at what you're doing. Chad (37m 51s): Yeah. Elke (37m 52s): That's important. And if it's with Google or if it's at Jobat well, very nice. And, I will say proudly, I'm proud to work and I am proud to work at Jobat. That's important. Joel (38m 5s): I think with some people it's important. Yeah. Elke (38m 8s): For some, for some not. Chad (38m 10s): Boomers. Yeah. No, I get that. But, really in the question around, because we're talking about loyalty from the employee side, right? I think, and tell me what you think about this. Elke (38m 21s): Yeah. Chad (38m 21s): I think employees have seen that the employers have not been loyal. So therefore, they've just kinda said, well, if you're not gonna be loyal, there's no reason for me to be loyal. I need to be happy and I'm not happy doing this. Elke (38m 37s): Well, I think that is changing today. Chad (38m 39s): Okay. Elke (38m 39s): And that is why employer branding is such a hot topic today. Chad (38m 45s): Yeah. Elke (38m 45s): Because employers are now knowing that it is important. It's not, it's not about, you as an employer, back in the days. Chad (38m 54s): Yes. Elke (38m 54s): When I started, when I went to for job posting, it was the employer who said, I like you. I don't like you. But now it's the candidate who says, what do you have to offer me, to your employer? Chad (39m 8s): I don't like you. Elke (39m 9s): I don't like you. Chad (39m 11s): Yeah. Elke (39m 11s): And so employers are noticing that and they are knowing now that employer branding is more important to see, to show what they can offer to a candidate. Joel (39m 20s): And what does that mean to you? I think 20 years ago it was, we have a ping pong table and free lunches. Chad (39m 28s): Juices. Juice box. Joel (39m 30s): I don't think that has the same gravitas that it used to. What does that mean to you today? Is it time off? Is it maternity leave? Is it education enhancement? Like what the new ping pong table? Elke (39m 45s): For me, it depends on the stage, in which stage of life you are at at the moment. And a lot of companies today are actually offering to their employees a flex plan where you can choose in function of your life at that moment. Well, today I'm renovating the house. The kids, I wanna spend more time with the kids. Well, I'm gonna take some extra vacation days or sometimes you need more money. Well, I will replace the extra vacation days by some more salary. And that is what we're evolving to. Elke (40m 25s): It's respect for me as a person. And my boss once told me to me, Elke, it's just a job. And I was so shocked when she said that. And I said, but, but, okay. But I wanna do the . And I'm afraid that you will say that I'm not doing a good job and she just repeated. It's just a job. Chad (40m 43s): Chill out. Elke (40m 44s): Chill out, Chad (40m 44s): Chill out Elke. Elke (40m 45s): And she's right. Chad (40m 46s): Yeah. Elke (40m 47s): And it doesn't mean by saying it's just a job. It doesn't mean that you don't do well your job. Chad (40m 53s): Right. Elke (40m 54s): No, not at all. It made me realize to get a bit more rest and to start to stop working a bit earlier. Chad (41m 1s): Yes. Elke (41m 1s): Well, it made me better in the next stage. Joel (41m 3s): Sounds like you're saying customization is important. Yeah. What's great for this person isn't great for that person. And if you try to put everyone in the same box, you're going to lose. Chad (41m 11s): Which is gonna be hard for companies. Joel (41m 12s): It's gonna be really hard. Everybody wants something different. Chad (41m 14s): Yeah. Joel (41m 14s): And there's no just broad stroke of this is gonna appeal to everybody. Chad (41m 19s): Yeah. And we're good. Well, I think it's interesting though, because we talk about equity, right? Everybody gets the same, right. This is gonna be something that's different, right. Because you could actually give some salary up for more flex time or what have you. But I think one of the things that we've dealt with over the years, well I know what we've dealt with over the years, is that employers have pretty much standard standard and dictated it, standardized and dictated what everybody got. Right? And other than salaries, cuz you had negotiate for that. But in the future you're picking it. So you can't come back to me, I'm the company. You can't come back to me and say, Hey, you didn't give me X, Y, and Z. Chad (41m 59s): Well, it's like, well you didn't choose it. So doesn't this feel a good evolution. It's good for the employee, but it's also good for the company because they actually have less risk at this point. Elke (42m 12s): Absolutely. It's a good evolution. That is what we are trying to at Jobat we really want to try and make every candidate reflect on what he's doing today. Is he happy? And okay, I'm inspired by some, an article or a story that, and okay, I think I'm gonna jump. I'm gonna actively seek for that job that I love to do. That's the most important mission we have to make people reflect on that. Joel (42m 41s): We've talked recently about how bad ATSs are with applying to a job and learning more about a company. We see more about automation where candidates are interacting with chatbots or conversational AI. And most of that feedback has been positive. Elke (42m 54s): Yeah. Joel (42m 54s): Because the standard is the black hole. You apply and you hear crickets, you hear nothing. And at least you're, I mean, you may be talking to a robot, but at least you're talking to something. What tips would you give companies that are sort of at this crossroads of, well, we're looking at automation, how do we make our process better? What tips are you giving them to do it right? Elke (43m 16s): For me, I'm a balanced person and I think automation is a big and good thing. And it gives companies the time to invest in the people, on the people side, automate what you can and what does not need this human interaction. But I think COVID has learned us that human interaction is important. We need a pat on the shoulder. We need to talk to someone to have personal feedback and so use the automation to get rid of the things that you don't like to do, or don't need human interaction and use that time to invest in people. Chad (43m 51s): How do we do that in a remote society? Because again, Joel (43m 53s): How do you pat someone on the back? Chad (43m 55s): Yeah, it's hard. I mean, you, you can digitally pat somebody on the back say good job or send 'em a text or something like that. Is that something that we are just going to have to evolve and get used to, is that, you know, we have to have better connections with our employees because we're not gonna see 'em at the water cooler every day? Elke (44m 16s): I could only talk about my experience is that when I look at the younger generation, the early 20 years, I see that they are afraid to call people, even in this remote environment that we are living in. They're sending emails, they're chatting, but they're not talking to each other. And that is something, as almost being 40. I just take the phone and I call someone and I ask, what do you think of that? Or, Hey, wanna go, wanna have a team's call with video just to see each other. And, you can text, I also text and I also send emails. And, but it's about giving feedback and sending an email. Elke (44m 57s): There's some nuance that gets lost and Joel (44m 60s): Elke's outta control. She's on the phone. She's calling people. She is outta control. Chad (45m 3s): These are all things Joel does not do. Elke (45m 6s): My team members will be laughing when they hear this, because they're all so Joel (45m 12s): You need to calm down with all this calling. Elke (45m 16s): I always say, just, you can send the email, okay. Call first and then send the email. Yeah. And it works. You make, you get more connection with people by doing that. Chad (45m 26s): Yeah. Well, and if they have questions they can clarify then, and you can get through it. Elke (45m 32s): Yeah. Chad (45m 33s): As opposed to having a string of 25 emails. Elke (45m 35s): Yeah. Chad (45m 35s): Which does seem, it, that in itself is frustrating. So you take the frustration out of it as well. Elke (45m 41s): Yeah. Chad (45m 41s): So, so be more human pick up the phone. It is gonna be a different world where we're not gonna get a physical pat on the back. Joel (45m 48s): I'm waiting for that mind meld where I can just think of a number and call people in my brain. Chad (45m 57s): Musk is doing that, the pig neuro thing with the chip. Joel (45m 59s): I need it immediately. Immediately. Elke you gave a lot of tips in your presentation. Chad (46m 1s): Yeah. Joel (46m 2s): Knowing that there was some great content there, give us some of those tips that you had in your presentation that you think some of our listeners would benefit from. Elke (46m 13s): Yeah. I talked about two priorities. One priority is recruiting and within the recruitment, how to find the right candidate, I think there, the biggest tips is know your candidate. Go and do some research. If you're looking for an ICTer, well, go on on the lookout and see what do they expect? Is it training that they want? Is it a pat on the back that they want? Is it nice colleagues that they want? We have a study, we actually, we questioned 10,000 Belgians within different function profiles. Elke (46m 53s): ICT, engineering, sales and we ask them, according to their experience level, if they're a junior, a media, a senior, what they are looking for when looking for a job? And that is important, knowing your candidate, then I think it's very important that to spread the word, as there are so much passive job seekers today who are currently working and afraid to jump and to go actively seek for a new job, you need to have different touch points, spread the word, but on the right channels. And then you also need a partner that has the profile data, which is very important today. Elke (47m 35s): It's smart data, having the profiles to target the right people, with your message and employer branding, tell your authentic story to possible candidates. Chad (47m 44s): Stop being a faker. Joel (47m 45s): I'm just looking for that pat on the back and a phone call. Elke (47m 48s): I'll give you a pat on the back. Joel (47m 52s): For our listeners who want to connect with you and learn more, where would you send them? Elke (47m 60s): I would send them naturally at Jobat.be. Joel (48m 2s): That's J O B A T dot be. Elke, thank you and we appreciate it. Chad (48m 5s): Yeah. Take care. Elke (48m 7s): Yeah. Thanks. Chad (48m 7s): So, so Joel, what was your favorite part of that interview? Joel (48m 9s): My favorite part of the interview was when I asked, does brand still matter? Because so much of what we talk about is, Hey, if, if I get the pay I want? If I get the flexibility I want? I get the benefits that I want? Then that's what the individual's looking for in an employer. Whereas I tend to think, yes, they want that, but they also wanna, they also kind of wanna flex. They wanna tell their friends, I work for a Google. I work for a Microsoft. I work for a big company. And you don't. Yeah. Chad (48m 39s): I, that's where I go back to my 'okay Boomer'. I think, you know, for today is again, we're moving more toward, can I spend more time with my kids? Can I, you know, make sure that I pick 'em up from, you know, the bus? Or what, whatever it is. Right? So it's becoming more about us and less about that brand. Lieven (48m 57s): What she said about brands and what Joel is agreeing with. I tend to agree too. I wanna work for a company I can be proud of, and it doesn't have to be a big brand. It can be a little challenger, but I wanna be proud of my company. I could never work for a company with a brand that I would be ashamed to mention during conversation. Joel (49m 21s): Well, one thing we can all be proud of is being associated with this podcast. Lieven (49m 28s): Ah, we can. Joel (49m 30s): And with that, another European show in the can, boys, We out. Chad (49m 35s): We out. Lieven (49m 36s): We out. OUTRO (49m 35s): Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. OUTRO (50m 17s): And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

Joel (27m 48s): That's like the real negative in terms of the gig economy is these people don't get unemployment Chad (29m 4s): Because this dude is a, an economics professor at Columbia knows his shit and it's, and

To me, there's a little bit of a battle brewing in one corner, you have the gig economy and a lot of and the story quote, "sourcing and hiring hourly workers have been transformed by the rise of the gig economy

that even from childhood, we, aren't doing much to open up those communication or teach people about economics getting people into the workforce, they're being paid equally and it just has this ripple effect on the economy

Then we have to play the whole economic game of now. It's been fed by trickle, not non-trickle down economics for over 40 years. It's a global economy working remotely. China has serious economic problems right now. The only place that the World Economic Forum right now is predicting GDP growth is Asia.

and taking a piece of the, I don't know, let's call it seven to 8 billion or so market cap in the gig economy

Economic impacts? price increase largely absorbed by customers like you and me, suggesting overall it was a positive economic Republicans and we've had Democrats in office ever since Ron Reagan's dumb ass did this fucking trickle down economic participants generated 563.6 million in direct employment income for the city of Tulsa, according to their economic It's juicing the economy.

Just like trickle-down economics did. 💣 It's either China or SkyNey as Palmer Luckey is back—this time Well, epoch analyzes the economic impact of AI. and produces benchmarks for AI performance for companies argues, that having agents do all the work will actually enrich humans, not impoverish them, through economic explosion, explosive economic growth. O'Donnell (39:06.424) I have great faith in the creator economy though. I do. just, economy, right?

One of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this is because economies don't turn on a dime. So the decisions we're making today, that's what's so important because that will impact our economy, I think on this issue with the rise of the gig economy and we both agree that that's going to continue All of the studies out there point to that, how does the gig economy support or pushback gender equality #Technology #Indeed #ClickIQ #Linkedn #Movies #PayEquity #MarriageEquality #Economy #jobs #Marijuana

talent attraction, for an in-depth discussion on navigating 2025’s talent acquisition hurdles—think economic The economy, there's an election cycle, the job market's a mess.