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without some hard-hitting industry analysis, with comparisons on the latest CEO swaps at iCIMS and SmartRecruiters

That's why we invited SmartRecruiters interim CEO and CPO Rebecca Carr to the show. Arguably SmartRecruiters did something similar too. Does SmartRecruiters come up in conversations around the world? Of course. And it hasn't come yet for SmartRecruiters. So. You've talked about consolidation, take out the crystal ball on SmartRecruiters.

It's a jungle out there. Inflation is still running rampant while unemployment remains historically low. Some companies are saying get back to the office, while some are saying never come back again. And some businesses in our space are seeing incredible carnage, while others are riding high. The real sign of the apocalypse though? LinkedIn thinks its solving the inclusion problem. It's enough to wish you had free beer. Mass hysteria, buy-or-sell, LinkedIn-sanity and free booze. You're welcome! TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. INTRO (1s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (24s): Oh yeah. Happy Labor Day America. Summer is temporary, Chad and Cheese are forever. Hey kitties. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host Joel old "dirty bastard" Cheeseman. Chad (36s): This is Chad, "and no top secret documents in my desk drawer" Sowash. Joel (41s): On this week's show Snagajob and Smart Recruiters get all shook up. LinkedIn pokes, prods, and Nudges, and free beer in Dublin. Chad (51s): Yes. Joel (51s): Yeah, let's do this. Chad (53s): I keep asking myself this question. So it, tell me what you think. If you were working for a company, let's say Lockheed Martin, a company everybody knows! Joel (1m 3s): Somebody that would never hire me. Lockheed Martin, okay. Let's talk about it. Chad (1m 7s): Okay. Okay. So, and you were a part of their super secret is skunkworks division and you left or you were fired, and you took company proprietary information or even classified information with you home. And then the company found out. What do you think the company or the government would actually do? Joel (1m 29s): Well, first of all, this is a real hypothetical cause I'm working for a defense company on super secret projects but. Chad (1m 35s): Yes. Joel (1m 35s): The answer to your question is someone in a black suit and sunglasses and probably an earpiece would come knocking on my door, looking for me. And I'd probably be in the pokey for awhile. Chad (1m 45s): Yes. Yes. It's, I mean, I just think it's interesting that we have this guy who leaves his job. Right. He was voted out, leaves his job. He takes secret documentation and everybody's like, well, it's okay. It's like, no, it's not okay. It's like, if somebody took super secret documentation from your work or proprietary information, you know those NDAs and shit that we all have to fucking sign. What do you think would happen? You would either go to go to jail, go to court, but something would happen. And everybody's like, ah, it's not a big deal. No, no. It's a big deal. Joel (2m 19s): Trump may still think he's president though. That could be a mental loophole that he could play in court. Chad (2m 26s): You still can't take those documents out of. Joel (2m 30s): I know. Chad (2m 30s): You can't. Even if you're president, that's what skiffs are for. I mean, it's just, oh my God is fucking crazy. Joel (2m 38s): The guy dances between the raindrops and he always has. And Chad (2m 42s): We shall see. Joel (2m 42s): If something happens this time? Chad (2m 44s): Let's talk about somebody who deserves to be in the limelight. That's Sabrina Williams. That's Serena Williams. That's right kids?! Nearly 41 years old. She's playing in her last tournament. 27 years, 23 grand slam titles, four Olympic gold medals, 14 grand slam doubles titles and a Serena slam. But wait, kids, there's more Serena. Just put on a clinic by knocking off the number two ranked player in the world to stay alive at the US Open, not since Jimmy Connors came back have we seen someone playing for just the pure fun of the sport? She's the greatest tennis player in history, hands down, full stop, man. Joel (3m 25s): Yep. Chad (3m 26s): I hate to see her go, but I love to see this the way it's playing out. Joel (3m 30s): Yeah. I love the interview where they said, you know, like, how do you feel about beating the number two player in the world? And she says, I'm still pretty good. And of course the crowd goes wild, but I was thinking about this cause it was asked on one of the sports radio talk shows that I listened to is who wouldn't be on your Mount Rushmore of all time athletes. Wow. I think for sure. Serena is probably on mine. The others I would put on there and, and it's tough, but just my lifetime and my experience, I, I would probably put Muhammad Ali on that mountain top. Chad (4m 2s): OK. Joel (4m 3s): I would probably put Michael Jordan on it. And it's tough between like baseball, hockey, soccer, the global number one sport. Yeah. But I would probably go Tom Brady in that four spot. How about you? Chad (4m 16s): Yeah. I'm going to go old school with Jim Thorpe. Joel (4m 23s): Oh. Chad (4m 23s): Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali. They were just amazing. And they were pure athletes, much like Serena and Venus Williams. Joel (4m 31s): So we agreed. Serena is the best female athlete of all time? Chad (4m 36s): I would say best tennis player, female but definitely, definitely. I would say top three easily, a female athlete. She might be number one. I'd have to sit and I'd have to crunch that one. Joel (4m 47s): We may have to do some bourbon and discuss this. Chad (4m 49s): That's a good call. Joel (4m 51s): Because I can tell you I've totally pissed off my Canadian in-laws by not putting Wayne Gretzky on that mountain top. Chad (4m 60s): Well Dude. I'm telling you right now, Jim Thorpe had Olympic gold medals. He played professional baseball and he played professional football. And I think there was another sport he played professionally. Joel (5m 11s): Yeah. Chad (5m 11s): We forget about some of those. Joel (5m 13s): Yeah. I mean, yeah, Babe Ruth. I mentioned Gretzky. I mean, you got like soccer, right? Pelé or I don't know where Ronaldo. I mean, there's a lot of soccer players. I'm sure our worldwide audience would, would put a soccer player on there as well. But anyway, sorry, Canada. Gretsky didn't make my list. Didn't make my list. All right. I guess we're in shout outs now? Sorry, listeners. I'm gonna give a shout out to Snap. Chad investors in the camera company. No, seriously that's what their LinkedIn profile says they are. A camera company. Chad (5m 43s): Yeah. Joel (5m 43s): Anyway, investors are wishing they could snap out of this nightmare. See what I did there? In light of their stock price declining nearly 80% this year, the company announced. sfx (5m 54s): Layoffs! Joel (5m 58s): Layoffs. That's right to the tune of 20% Chad of their workforce. That's more than 6,400 employees. Chad (6m 7s): Wow, Shit. Joel (6m 8s): Remember when we used to talk about Snap locations and Snap being a fortune recruiting well, safe to say, that's now on hold. Maybe they can pivot out of cameras and become a rotary phone landline business. Shout out to our friends at Snap. Chad (6m 26s): Somebody who loves them a rotary phone, that would be Katrina Collier. So shout out to Katrina Collier on the global publication of the newest edition of the Robot Proof Recruiter. That's right kids. It's upgraded, check out the upgraded Robot Proof podcast earlier this week, where we sat down with Katrina and also a big shout out to Charlotte Marshall for coming on the podcast to talk about compelling and re paneling candidates with your brand. Check out all of our interviews on Chadcheese.com or wherever you listen to interviews. Joel (7m 5s): Well Chad. You heard that DJ horn? Means DJ Sol. Your boy, must be in the news again. No Goldman Sachs CEO, David DJ Solomon has ordered the worker bees back to the office. The Wall Street giant lifted all COVID protocols this week that have kept some workers away as it pushes all employees to return to the office five days a week after Labor Day school's in session. And we want you in person, the New York Post reported someone at Goldman Sachs saying the party's over shout out to Goldman Sachs and the beatings will continue until morale improves. Everybody. Shout out to DJ Sol. Chad (7m 45s): Oh my God. Okay. So a big shout out to the big podcasting platform YouTube? What? Joel (7m 58s): YouTube? Chad (7m 58s): Laminate surveyed 3000 US podcasts listeners and YouTube is the most used platform for podcasts. That's what they came out with. And this comes after a Cumulus report in may where YouTube snag, the number one position platform from Spotify. sfx (8m 13s): What did you say? Chad (8m 15s): A couple of very weird points as we see Apple as our number one listening platform for podcasts, I think this deserves one of those Joel LinkedIn polls. So we should probably put one out there. See if people see a couple of things, see where people are listening. Number one, we can see that on our analytics, but just, you know, as a broad base, but then also see if they want to see, you know, a Chad and Cheese video version of the podcast. Joel (8m 43s): You missed the LinkedIn polls. Don't you Chad, you the LinkedIn calls. You have Amazon prime. Don't you? The videos? Have you seen the Val Kilmer documentary? Chad (8m 54s): No. Joel (8m 54s): That would be like Val Kilmer. Chad (8m 56s): Yes. Yes. Joel (8m 56s): Top gun. I mean, Doc Holiday, Jim Morrison's? A lot of really good stuff. Anyway, if you're interested in Val and it's a niceness nostalgic ride down the eighties and nineties, which was great for me, but I was pondering the question. What's a better Valcom or Jim Morrison or Doc Holiday? Chad (9m 12s): And Doc Holiday every single day. I mean, I think one of his best roles. Joel (9m 16s): Yeah. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, wrong Chad. Cause the answer is Jim Morrison. What he studied for painfully as you'll see in the documentary. But speaking of LinkedIn policy might have to see, which is a better Val? Doc Holiday or Jim Morrison? Chad, you might've heard it's football season. Chad (9m 37s): Yes, can't wait. Joel (9m 38s): That deserves a big applause Chad (9m 40s): Stoked. Joel (9m 40s): Stoked, stoked. The ball state Cardinals opened their season in Tennessee to play the volunteers by the way. Take the 35 and a half for Tennessee on that one. Anyway, we got fantasy football again this year, Chad and our friends at Factory Fix are sponsoring fantasy football. And time is running out as you listen to this, if you want to play, get your ass to Chadcheese.com, click the link for fantasy football and sign up. It's going to be a hell of a lot of fun. We've made some altercations to the lineups. Chad, including your flex player can actually be a quarterback. So two quarterbacks playing in the same week. How much fun is that? Joel (10m 20s): We thought about having three kickers every week, but decided against that. People's minds might blow up if that was the option, but we're, I'm pretty excited about fantasy football. I know you are too. Chad (10m 31s): Yes. And a shorten bench as well. So that I think will be the big kicker. Joel (10m 35s): Yup. Game faces and A games are what you're going to have to bring this year to fantasy football with Chad and Cheese sponsored by FactoryFix. That's not all the free shit and fun that we've got going on Chad. Chad (10m 50s): Of course not. Joel (10m 50s): We got whiskey from Textkernel, Aspen Tech Labs is sponsoring our beer drop. T-shirts are going to now have the JobGet logo. And we're frantically printing up those shirts to hopefully have them at HR Tech, which is in two weeks not to jump the shark to our travel schedule, but we're hoping to get some t-shirts there. We're doing events at HR tech with This Way Global and to Tatio is that how we pronounce it Tatio? Chad (11m 19s): Tasha Tatio? Joel (11m 20s): Patio featured on top pod TA Pod or whatever that is. If you want to get in on some of those events hit us up on the DMS, you might get an invite, but it is a red carpet exclusive event from Chadcheese. Cause you know what? We can't rent out Caesars. You know what I'm saying? Like we can't rent out a big enough place for all of our fans. We gotta be somewhat exclusive, but dammit, in two weeks, Vegas, we're gonna have a ton of fun Chad, at HR Tech and every month we have fun with free shit for our listeners. Chad (11m 50s): I think the Tuesday night event is full, but you can still reach out to us around the, that's right kids, the penthouse events with This Way Global. So we might have a few slots for that one, go ahead and reach out. But I guarantee you they won't last long. Joel (12m 7s): I feel bad. All of us, Chad, it's crazy. It's crazy. And we love our fans who are celebrating birthdays this week, Chad another year round the sun for some of our fans. Chad (12m 19s): Happy Birthday! Joel (12m 19s): Our number one fan on the list here is my son Cole Cheeseman. Chad (12m 26s): Cole Cheeseman! Joel (12m 27s): Everybody. My baby boy is celebrating 16 years on planet earth. Chad (12m 30s): Holy shit! Joel (12m 30s): He'll be driving soon. You have been warned if you went in the Indianapolis Metro area, but Happy Birthday to Cole and what he wants for his birthday Chad is a ticket to see Wu Tang, Oz, Busta Rhymes, which we are both going to see tonight. Chad (12m 47s): In Indianapolis. Yes. Joel (12m 47s): In Indianapolis. Yes. It will be more akin to a Dave Matthews concert, I think for, for Indianapolis than New York City. But yeah, we're going to step to the Wu for his 16th birthday. What could be more fun than that? Also celebrating a birthday Olivia Marquette, Matt O'Donnell, Shani Underwood Etel Feinberg. I thought that was Ethel, but it's actually Etel Adam Nelson, Stacy Shaw, reportedly Chris dollar Billets, Chris Hoyt, Bill Boorman. Chad (13m 29s): Yes! Joel (13m 29s): And Chris Murdoch all celebrating birthdays. Happy birthday to everybody. Chad (13m 32s): Hello. TOPICS! Joel (13m 33s): So you broke this late last week. What's going on with Smart Recruiters and Snagit.? Chad (13m 39s): Yep. Broke two big pieces of news last Friday about Smart Recruiters and Snagajob both were verified through multiple sources, but were not corroborated by either company at the time. Now guess what kids? We have corroboration number one, C E O of Smart Recruiters Jerome Ternynck is stepping down as CEO and into the chairman of the board of Smart Recruiters. Jerome, formally announced earlier this week through a short blog post saying quote "to lead this next phase of accelerated growth, we have agreed in partnership with our board of directors to bring in a new CEO with deep experience in leading in growing companies of our size and scale. Chad (14m 22s): This will allow me to transition to the chairman of the board so that I can continue to partner with our Smartians to make an impact on the customers every day" end quote. Jeremy Johnson, Smart Recruiters, CFO will step into the interim CEO position. Smart Recruiters had a 10% reduction in force just weeks ago. So what the hell is going on over there? Joel (14m 49s): First of all, I think it's Martians like Martians. Chad (14m 52s): Is it? Joel (14m 52s): Yeah. Yeah. That's clever. Clever. So I first met Jerome when he first launched Smart Recruiters back in, I think 2011, it was a free ATS back then I thought, yeah, good luck with all that. I don't think they would have done very well on firing squad if we had been doing firing squad at the time they went paid a play and Google launched hired, which made them go back to a more freemium based model. I think the ATS industry is seriously under pressure for a lot of these folks. No one can IPO. We're seeing a lot of consolidation, conversational AI and platforms like DEEL, and Oyster sucking out a lot of the oxygen in our space. Joel (15m 33s): And like we've talked about job boards provide a lot of the ATS functionality for free if you're a small business, it's much easier and more cost effective to use ZipRecruiter or Indeed for your ATS, if you can. And there are only so many big companies to service for the bigger ATSs. Smart Recruiters has raised $225 million and investors eventually want their money. They're on a 12 year run right now, as well as Jerome has been at the helm that long. New leadership will button that thing up and I think it will be gone in 18 months or so. I also wonder, and we won't know this until maybe after the fact, but also wonder when K1 was looking for new companies, ATS is to, to gobble up and they ended up on Lever. Joel (16m 20s): I gotta think Smart Recruiters was in that conversation. Either Jerome left it up or something happened where they were hoping for a big payday from K1 like Lever did. And that caused the board to say, hold on a second. Do we have the right guy at the helm? I think so, whoever, whoever runs this thing is going to cut, cut the fat, get this thing up to full profitability and sell the thing off. Cause I don't see them going IPO in the current state. I mean, I think we talked about this a lot. I do, you know, you're on the clock when you take money. And at that 10 year spot, which Lever and Smart Recruiters both were at, investors want their money. They want return if they don't, they get really antsy. And I think this is largely what happened here. It's not show friends, it's show business. Joel (17m 3s): And this proves once again, that that is true. Even in the employment ATS software industry. Chad (17m 9s): Yeah. I think we've got to remember that, you know, the founder, CEO generally, isn't the CEO who takes that the company to the next level, right? And the first part of his quote was to lead this next phase of accelerated growth. We saw Colin over at iCIMS, he left so that Steve Lucas could be that guy to prospectively, to IPO. But again, it's that next phase, that next stage of the rocket and we do see, and we have seen for years where CEO stay too long, you have to be incredibly interspective as a CEO so that you don't hang on too long. Chad (17m 50s): Also remember that the CEO wasn't the only position rumor to be changing. The CMO and the C T O were also part of last week's rumor. So Smart Recruiters PR was happy to send me Jerome's blog posts, although are eerily silent on the other positions. So what do you think about this? No denial whatsoever that no, this isn't happening. They're just being silent. Joel (18m 13s): No one wants to scare customers that there's like huge changes going on. So a lot of this stuff, you know, is quietly done or it happens over time or it's announced, you know, Friday at six o'clock Eastern. So everyone just sort of forgets about it. I, you know, just think this was a situation of like time ran out. They probably missed a sale opportunity to K1 and said, look, we need to make some serious changes and make some hard decisions. And that's what happened. I don't think this is a situation like, you know, the Google guys come up with a phenomenon in search and then three, four or five years down the road, they go, holy shit, we can't manage this company. It's way too big. We need, some adults to come in the room. I think Jerome is an adult, he just ran out of time. That's how I read into this, but yeah, time will tell but I think this thing will be off the board in 18 to 24 months. Chad (19m 1s): That's a prediction from Joel Cheeseman kids. Joel (19m 4s): It's hard medicine. Sometimes Chad. Chad (19m 7s): Some other hard medicine that's taken the Snagajob news was corroborated by CEO Matchu Stevenson. He said, quote, "the 40% figure was high. That was one of the percentages that we were told was high, but any reduction is painful, especially when it impacts talented individuals due to the factors outside of our control. We did have to make decisions in response to recent changes in market conditions and the uncertain economic outlook" end quote. I then asked about representing blue collar essential workers, because those jobs are exploding right now. We see tons of those. So, you know, why, are we seeing those issues? Chad (19m 47s): And then Matchu's response was quote, "Broadly it's still a robust job market in hourly that said there are pockets of hourly, such as e-commerce fulfillment that have seen a pullback in recent months as consumer behavior has evolved, quote unquote "post COVID" combined. With an uncertain economic environment where the Fed is trying to soften the labor market we need to be able to weather a potential prolonged recession" end quote. First and foremost, he's pointing out pockets in government and saying that we're in a recession. Are those diversions from a business that has been able to, to meet expectations? Because that's what I'm hearing. I really like Matchu but this response to me is more excuse than actual reason. Joel (20m 30s): Yeah. I have a coach that I think of when I hear this response. sfx (20m 34s): Way off. Joel (20m 35s): Yeah. Someone who's a little bit in denial. They're like, this is, this is spinning it for their customers. You know, the media people like us in the market. Remember when we used to talk about Snagajob as like a competitive, like tier two job site? Chad (20m 49s): Oh yeah. Joel (20m 49s): One for the kids. Yeah. We used to talk about Monster, CareerBuilder and Snagajob was the 800 pound gorilla for hourly jobs. I mean, they essentially were ZipRecruiter before ZipRecruiter and speaking of ZipRecruiter Snagajob was fighting a multiple front war that I think has really sort of come to roost here. Zip was spending tons of money on advertising, which Snagajob was not willing or able to do. Indeed was a way to search that appealed to younger folks, you know, 15 years ago. Some of us remember when Google was actually cool and cutting edge. Mobile probably caught them off guard to some degree. They seemed unprepared for social media as well. And all the, while this was happening, the gig economy was growing exponentially. Joel (21m 33s): A battle the bold style attempt to rebrand and compete in the gig economy failed. Our listeners might remember Snag when they changed their name and launched an app that failed. And now we're back to where we started and the same pressures are still there. And there may be even more than they were before because the gig economy is growing exponentially as we know, you know, zip is now a public company. Indeed is bigger than it was. So, you know, with service industry hiring so tight Snagajob should be living its best life, but the world, as far as I can see as apparently passed them by. Frankly, unless some private equity comes along to save them, it's really hard to see a future of growth and maybe even existence for Snagajob in the next five to 10 years. Joel (22m 18s): Thanks for the memories, I guess. But yeah, this is trying to put a lot of lipstick on a pig, as far as you know, their CEO's spinning this. I don't see any good news if you're a Snagajob investor, employee or customer. Chad (22m 32s): So you mentioned Zip and he actually had something to say about Zip. So quote, "while they're more of a horizontal marketplace, Zip's earnings and projections, the last couple of quarters highlight the shift. They've raised earnings at the end of Q1 and then pulled back their forecast for H2, a couple of weeks ago end quote. Look, we just came off of one of probably the best growth patterns that we've ever seen in this industry, especially for recruitment marketing, right? To be able to actually go out and try to make money on job postings. Chad (23m 12s): And we're getting ready to reduce staff dramatically. Joel (23m 14s): ZipRecruiter is a little bit of a victim of their own success. They did such a good job of being like the hourly service seasonal employer. And now they're trying to shift to being a job board for professionals. And frankly, I think, I think that's a confusion of the marketplace. I don't know. I don't think people know what the hell to do with ZipRecruiter anymore. Again, I think it's sort of like trying to, you know, Hey look at these guys over there, you know, they're having a hard time too. All the while, you know, we talk about Glassdoor and Indeed and others, you know, having pretty good quarters. And again, this is, he's pointing out a few quarters for ZipRecruiter. I'm not bullish ZipRecruiter for the long haul, but I think we're talking about macro changes that have impacted Snagajob that are a decade plus in the making. Joel (24m 0s): And they just missed step after misstep and it's coming to roost. Like it's just, you can't keep it up without, you know, paying the price at the end, unless they do some major pivot to save the company. I just, I don't see a future with Snagajob as a major player in our industry. Chad (24m 20s): Yeah. Well, good luck to Jerome to Matchu and even more so to the staff at Smart Recruiters, heads down, keep your assets working. Same at Snagajob. Good luck, good luck there. But when we come back, we're actually going to be talking a little buy or sell. So some of those new kids that are coming down the block, we're going to be talking about those in just a minute. Joel (24m 44s): Good luck with all that Snagajob. All right, Chad, I think this is week two in a row of buy or sell. I mean, how great is that? Chad (24m 55s): And we did buy or sell in the Europe show. Joel (24m 57s): Yeah, we're doing buy or sell everywhere. Yeah. We're not doing unicorns as much, but Hey, people are still getting money. So it's fun. All right, kids, you know the game, we read three companies, they usually raise money. We have one in one this week that hasn't raised money, but they just launched and we thought they were worth talking about. So I read a summary and Chad and I either buy or sell the company. Are you ready to play, Chad? Chad (25m 23s): Let's do it. Joel (25m 23s): All right, let's do it. First up is Glints. That's GLINTS. The job board based in Singapore and launched in 2013, long time ago, announced it has raised 50 million in a series D. This brings Glints total raise so far to $80 million. The platform currently has 3 million professionals in five markets, those being Indonesia, Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, and Taiwan, or as the kids call it APAC. 50,000 companies that are seeking workers use the service. The latest funding will be used to expand Glints' base in the Philippines and maybe no most notably grow demand globally. Joel (26m 5s): Chad, let's talk a little APAC. Are you buy or sell Glints? Chad (26m 11s): Yeah. Glints. Not to be confused with Glints who was acquired by LinkedIn and 2018 at call. Joel (26m 19s): Yeah. Good call. Chad (26m 19s): Total of 82.2 million Glint's trying to be the Indeed of APAC. I think it's interesting that everybody wants to know what one site is going to take down Indeed. We hear that all over the place. What site is it going to be? And I don't believe it's going to be any one site, rather a collective around the world. Sites like Glints, that have focused and hopefully will stay disciplined on the region they know, and win and tear away the market from sites like Indeed. We saw it happen with Monster as tried to dominate worldwide. And they lost smaller regional players. When bigger organizations like Indeed, they try to expand in many cases, they lose focus and that's what we saw with Monster. Chad (27m 2s): They lost focus. They did business the wrong way, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And they lost, they got market share ripped away from them. I think Glints will be a part of the collective that takes on Indeed. It's a buy for me. Joel (27m 19s): Ooh, Chad's buying Glints. Sorry. Chad do you know where water runs? Chad (27m 21s): Downhill. Joel (27m 21s): The path of least resistance. I think he got it right. I think they would count that right on family feud. Anyway, the story here to me is the increased demand for remote workers. Glints says remote cross border job postings grew more than three X year over year. If there's a wall that's gone up in Russia and there's uncertainty with Ukrainian talent, particularly developers. Where do you think employers are going to go? Southeast Asia apparently. This is a 10 year old company who's benefited from timing. Where have we seen that before? There's ample competition mind you, you mentioned Indeed and also Seek is in there by the way. Joel (28m 1s): Indeed is owned by a Japanese mega corporation who might have something to say about APAC as this thing grows out. But Glints to me seems to have cut out a niche that works really well in a world where Europe is well, a little bit in disarray, you should for the foreseeable future see good times at Glints, which means for me, it's also a, buy. Chad (28m 27s): Not to mention Indeed might just buy these guys. Joel (28m 29s): Recruit Holdings has some money. Chad (28m 30s): Yeah. Joel (28m 30s): They have some money. It could be a play. It's getting a little pricey for them now, but they've been known to bring out the wallet. All right, company number two is Kula that's K U L A. Recruitment automation platform Kula has raised $12 million in a seed funding round founded in 2021. This takes total funding to $15 million. The cash will be used for R and D product improvements and go to market teams across the three offices in the US, Singapore and India. The kids call those high growth markets Chad. Kula targets, SMBs and mid-market organizations with less than 1000 employees, which it says are underserved and which I say are shitty targets. Joel (29m 15s): But anyway, Chad is this company Kula than the other side of the pillow or not so hot? Buy or sell Kula? Chad (29m 23s): I see what you did there. This is really another Singapore company that is started in the US. So Singapore is hot right now. These are two Singapore companies that we've been talking about. So if you're listening right now, go to kula.ai and check out their height video. It's literally just saying what everybody knows. The recruitment process is broken. Then it takes you on a brand creation journey which lasts less than two minutes. It looks like a recruitment marketing automation system. They just talk about recruitment automation, but to be quite Frank, I mean, it is very heavily recruitment marketing. The CEO has experience in recruiting. Chad (30m 5s): Big plus. He was at Stripe, Uber, FreshWorks to name a few. One of the other co-founders has marketing automation knowledge. As we've seen from companies like CandidateID in this new world of recruiting recruitment, marketing automation isn't just a nice to have, it is a must have Kula as sexy as it is, is a buy for me. Joel (30m 30s): That's two buys for Mr. Sowash everybody. All right. Chad (30m 32s): Wow. Joel (30m 33s): That's! Let's get my take on this. All right. So let's go over the pros and cons. First, the pros. I love automation. We love automation. I think that's a good lane to be in. Number two, a feature called Kula's Circle, that's clever, consolidates, all employees networks into one dashboard, helping recruiters figure out potential candidates from first degree connections of all their employees. That sounds kind of cool. And number three, India is a billion people, strong and ripe for some homemade solutions just like this. Now let's talk about the cons. They got a lot of competition. HireEasy, SeekOut. Beamery just to name a few. Joel (31m 14s): Taking on those companies is going to be a very tall order. Number two, SMBs, suck ass. It's a shitty business. No one likes it. Everyone goes out of business in two or three years. It's just a bad churn. No one shouldn't wish us on their worst enemy and Kuma has decided to get into it. And number three, they rely a lot on LinkedIn. Hello? HighQ our listeners will know very well, which never seems to work out very well unless your CEO used to work closely with Bill Gates, SeekOut. In all, I think the cons outweigh the pros. Kula for me is a sell Chad. However, now I'm hungry for the Slayer at Koumas on Fountain Square. Joel (31m 57s): So that's nice. Number three. Laddrr. Okay. This one is spelled L a D D R R kind of like our friends at The Ladders, by the way, we should check in on their R and D department real quick. The ladders, everybody. sfx (32m 11s): Crickets. Joel (32m 12s): Yeah. That's that's innovation at the ladders as usual. All right. Step aside, Mark Cenedella There's a new ladder in town. This one again, spelled LA double D double R. Chad (32m 21s): Pat. Can I buy a vowel? That's what I'm saying. Joel (32m 25s): Yeah. Yeah. We're playing all the eighties shows shows today. The mom project has some competition. Laddrr, a resource platform for working mothers has beta launched a talent hub that matches moms to be and mothers at all stages with flexible work opportunities. They promise AI that identifies candidate skills then uses the skills for job matching. Beta launch partners include WeWork and EightFold. And speaking of EightFold, Chad, Ashutosh Garg, founder, and current CEO of Eightfold is a founding member of Laddrr. I don't know if that'll change your, your buy or sell or not, but Chad, are you ready to climb this ladder to the tippy top or is Laddrr a sell? Chad (33m 6s): Yeah. Again, Pat, can I buy a vowel? Jesus Christ people. This is is a much harder one for me than the other two. The design is horrible the logo sucks. I mean, it feels like it was created in the early two thousands. They do have a much better focus and messaging than roll share, which got flamed on last week's European show. And they are leaning very heavily on data, citing things like the motherhood penalty, where even just a year without employment moms can result in 39% lower pay. 61% of stay at home moms aren't working because of family responsibilities and the reasons why this is a great platform for a company wanting to hire more qualified females goes on and on. Chad (33m 54s): Laddrr isn't a career site. I'm gonna say that again. Laddrr isn't a career site, rather it's a resource hub. And one of those resources is jobs. I'm a big fan of creating community to build a lifestyle platform, which keeps users coming back every day. Not just when they're looking for a job, it's ugly, but I love the niche and I love the resource and I love the community that they're trying to create there. I'm a fan. It's a buy. That's three! Joel (34m 26s): You're in a good mood today. All right. So Ashutosh Garg, hopefully I say that correctly, is now officially the Jack Dorsey of our space, leading two companies at the same time. At least that's what it looks like, this smells a little fishy to me. I wonder how EightFold's brass feel about his new venture here. Anyway, it's a noble mission, but how many mom projects do we really need, Chad? And don't forget about Fairy God Boss and InHerSite. And some of the others that we've talked about on the show, maybe there's magic in that AI that they're selling, but whatever they're dropping, I am not picking up. Joel (35m 7s): Laddfr for me is a sell. That's been another episode of buy or sell everybody. I had fun. I hope that you did too. Next up on our news. LinkedIn Nudge, has there been a better brand than Nudge? Not since poke, have we been more excited about a, about a word? All right. From our friends at Aim Group, LinkedIn has added a tool to its hiring platform that provides recruiters with metrics and recommendations that help them target more gender balanced candidate pools. Quote "diversity, Nudges" end quote, pop up when a candidate search produces results that are less than 45% male or female. Joel (35m 48s): Listeners might remember LinkedIn introduced another diversity tool in August of 2021 that lets recruiters deliberately hide photos and names of job candidates with the aim of avoiding racial bias and hiring decisions. LinkedIn has solved the diversity recruiting puzzle once again, Chad, what are your thoughts on this new feature, Nudge? Chad (36m 6s): Well, most recruiters don't give a shit about gender balance, guys. They care about getting the seat filled. So this Nudge should be more about providing transparency within LinkedIn to the rest of the world around workforce composition in every company. That's what they should be doing. They should be focusing on transparency. When a user goes to a company's LinkedIn page, it should show the workforce gender balance because only public shaming will get this equality, equity ball rolling. Putting the onus on the recruiter instead of making it public, making the CEO in leadership look bad. That's the only answer. Chad (36m 47s): Stop trying to put all of the work on the recruiter you stupid assholes. Get it out there and shame the fuck out of these leadership groups. Joel (36m 54s): Companies would shit their pants. If they did that, wouldn't they? Chad (36m 58s): I fucking love it. Joel (36m 59s): You've mentioned this before bandaid on a chest wound. I think that's something that's crazy Chad (37m 1s): On a chest wound yeah. Joel (37m 2s): Sunken chest, since you're on the year in the army, I'm going to go with that. So, so this is a network. Let me remind everyone with over 800 million users that was acquired for $26 billion and is owned by Microsoft. And you're telling me that this shit is the best they can do? I mean, who the fuck is running things over there? And remember, this is also the company that can't even control racism and their own company meetings. Remember that Chad? All right, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. And they can and should do better. We wonder why LinkedIn can't dethrone Indeed? Chad (37m 39s): Yes. Joel (37m 39s): It's shit like this lipstick on a pig, which also reminds me, Chad, if we're talking about pigs, the Slayer at Kuma at Fountain Square, everybody panics, why don't we record this at lunchtime? Anyway, let's take a quick break. Everybody. I'm going to go grab some Doritos or something and we're going to talk about free beer. Chad (38m 0s): Yes. I think this story was made for us and Joel (38m 3s): It's take football, Ireland and free bear. Chad (38m 6s): Yes! Joel (38m 6s): Yeah. Maybe, maybe. Well, well we mentioned football is back and as I'm sure you'll also be watching as I will Ohio State dismantle Notre Dame this Saturday. Chad (38m 17s): Knock on wood. Yes. Joel (38m 18s): So anyway, two big 10 teams squared off in Dublin last weekend, those being Nebraska and Northwestern, two fan bases that can also put down some beer I'm sure. Not surprisingly their Irish hosts were more than happy to oblige that beer obsession. However, they ran into a snag Chad. Credit card machines went down at the Aveva stadium in Dublin. Chad (38m 41s): What would we do? Joel (38m 43s): A venue that holds 50,000 people. Chad (38m 45s): Damn. Joel (38m 46s): What's more of the stadium does not accept cash and the credit card machines could not connect to the wifi. So what did Dublin do Chad. Concession workers were left to hand out food and drinks for free. Chad (39m 2s): Yes! Joel (39m 2s): Needless to say it was St. Patrick's Day in August and picture of a giant beer snake certainly impressed yours truly on social media. If you don't know what a beer snake is, please look it up. Chad, what's your take on, on this magical heavenly occurrence that happened to these suckers, these damn bastards from Nebraska Northwestern? Chad (39m 22s): I tell you Ireland knows how to treat people. Right because if that would've happened in the US they would have just shut, shut down. They would have closed all the beer joints, all the food joints. And they would just said, sorry, here in the US we just don't give a shit. Ireland does. That's one of the reasons why I love Europe. Another reason kids, why I love Europe. Joel (39m 45s): By the way, Chad, the score in case anyone cares was Nebraska 28, Northwestern 31. Chad (39m 50s): Nobody cares. Joel (39m 51s): How did Nebraska get to sucking so quickly? God, they used to be one of the premier teams in American football. Anyway, again, reminding me how much I love the Slayer at Koumas in Dountain Square Chad, Happy Labor Day to our American brethren. Chad and Cheese (40m 9s): We out. Outro (40m 10s): Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. Outro (40m 55s): And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

SmartRecruiters and Checkr go shopping, Yardstik gets paid, the Valley is bummed about losing workers

More fun than a press conference at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping parking lot, Chad & Cheese bring plenty of red meat this week. We're talkin' big acquisitions, ousted CEOs, empowered women, and ticked-off Mexicans. It's gettin' loco out there, amigos, so take a break from the world and slide away to the sweet sounds of two middle-aged white guys from the American Midwest. It's a party, and Sovren, JobAdx, and Jobvite are bringing the appetizers. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. INTRO (2s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (21s): All right. All right. All right. Coming at, you live from the Four Seasons Total Landscaping in Philadelphia, PA it's the Chad and Cheese podcast AKA HR's most dangerous. I'm your cohost Joel "Podcaster Elect" Cheeseman. Chad (39s): And this is Chad "We're Peaking Again" Sowash. Joel (42s): And on this week show Smart Recruiters gets a new pal, Hired loses a CEO and Mexican presidents don't fuck around. Time to pay some bills, this beer is not going to by itself people. Jobvite (58s): Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com. Chad (1m 28s): Love that. SFX (1m 29s): We'll accept that. Yes. Joel (1m 32s): Which brings us to my first SHOUT OUT. Chad (1m 34s): Oh, Alex Trebek. Joel (1m 36s): Alex Trebek. Chad (1m 37s): Yeah. Oh man. My wife is hurting right now. She? Literally, I think she would, she would have left me for Alex Trebeck in a heartbeat or Sean Connery or Sean Connery. Joel (1m 48s): Does she prefer the mustachioed Trebek or the sans mustachioed Tribek. Chad (1m 53s): Do you like the mustached Trebek or the non mustached? (Chad's wife in background) Mustache? She likes the mustache. Joel (1m 59s): She likes the mustache? okay. Okay. I like the cleaner look myself. I like the, the more distinguished clean shorn Tribek and yes, Sean Connery as well. Our second favorite Scott next to Adam Gordon and entries and maybe third next to Mel Gibson are our second favorite scot. Chad (2m 20s): He's not a scot. Okay. he did play Braveheart. I get. Joel (2m 27s): Gordon gets so mad about us on Australian playing a famous Scot in history. But yes, two men that will be missed. I don't, I don't know of any like celebrity guests hosts. It was always Trebek like the dude was the iron man of game shows. Chad (2m 44s): Very impressive. Very impressive. I've got to say I'm I am sad that this week, and I know you are too Joel, that there are no listener questions. So I'd like to definitely make sure that listeners understand that joel loves to answers questions, so get some hard questions in here and we'll we'll ask Joe, he loves the, the diversity and equity questions the most though. President Trump (3m 6s): Don't be rude. Joel (3m 7s): Yeah. I love those. I love those. We allegedly have a new president here in America. The reign of terror from orange Hitler is over, we're we're hopeful. Anyway. So Biden and Kamala Kamala Harris. Dammit. I always make that mistake. Kamala Harris. Congratulations. Don't fuck it up. Chad (3m 27s): Does that mean not Nazi Barbie's not going to be on the TV anymore doing like press confeences? Joel (3m 33s): Nazi Barbie. That's nice. She has a nice leather skirt collection. I don't know. That must be a subscription model that she's yeah, the Ava Braun monthly. Chad (3m 47s): Oh, big SHOUT OUT to Nick Livingston CEO, founder, over at it's who mailed some bootleg bourbon balls. Did you get those yet? SFX (3m 58s): We'll accept that yes. Joel (3m 59s): Yes. Yes I did. I, I got to think because Nick is so square. He's so like by the rules that he wasn't going to ship alcohol for risk of like the feds showing up to his, to his house. So he, he went with the balls, the bourbon balls. So thank you. Thank you, Nick. Chad (4m 15s): I'll also in the mail Adzooma sent swag. Are you going to, are you going to go ahead and knock on the swag? Joel (4m 25s): No, you know, I'm a hard guy to fit, you know, I'm a big, I'm a big boy. I'm used to like getting XLs and then I just give it to my wife or my son is now like a large. He'll be the kid at school with like all these brands that no one knows of, which I feel for him. But yeah, it's, it's good stuff. I could always use more water bottles, pens and bottle openers. And who couldn't? Chad (4m 52s): Well, I liked it also, thanks to Adzooma for beer drop. And yesterday we had the beer drop tasting party and people, what does that? But we had Jennifer Shanahan, our first winner, she had about 20 beers that landed, dropped, beer drop on her front stoop. And we had an hour beer tasting with Chad and cheese and some of the, some of the dudes over at, at Adzooma. So we had a good time. So she had some one-on-one time with us. I don't know if that's good or bad. You're going to have to ask Jennifer. Joel (5m 26s): It was good. It was, that was fun. Like I think, I think I speak for everyone. Who's stuck in sort of a zoom business rut only talking about, you know, sales leads and you know, the bottom line. And, and it was just nice to like, I think four, eventually four of us were on this call, five of us, and it was just nice to hang out and have some beers and talk about everything from sports to weather, to clothing. To obviously we talked a little recruitment, but there's a void in my life. I think of socializing in that way. And if Chad and Cheese can help fix that void, that would be nice. But more on that later, right? Chad (6m 5s): That's right beerdropped.net kids. Because if you want to receive, you know, a bunch of beer for free on your front doorstep contactless , and then have a, have a little tasting with Chad and Cheese, a little, little, little one on two on one time, then go, go and register. Joel (6m 26s): And I think will be, we'll be selecting November's winter a couple of weeks. So there's definitely time to get into the mix here for November. Give extra Thanksgiving. If you're here in the States and you celebrate Thanksgiving in November, unlike those, those heathens in the North, Canada. Chad (6m 45s): And Steven Rothberg also sporting the Chad and Cheese t-shirt look, you're looking good. Boy, Chadcheese.com/free. That's where you can get the free Chad and Cheese emissary.ai powered t-shirts again. We are trying to make sure our listeners are getting beer making COVID a little bit easier getting Chad and Cheese t-shirts making COVID a little bit easier. Are we going to tell them about the new making COVID easier promotion? Joel (7m 15s): We sure can, but I do want to say goddammit Rothberg makes it into every show and I'm going to make sure he doesn't get in one of these weeks. Anyway, Stephen, we love you go. Vikings, right? Yes. So we're super pumped at our latest giveaway. So if you're a bourbon drinker, you already know, if you're not, you need to learn one of the most highly sought after bourbons in the world, Pappy Van Winkle's Family Reserve, this stuff is what, we've got is roughly $2,200 per bottle. And people like per bottle, that's retail. Like you pick up this stuff on the black market, you're going to pay three, four, five times that. Joel (7m 57s): All right. So who, who of our sponsors did we first think of to like back, you know, to like bank roll this thing, Robert Ruff. It was Robert, Robert Sovren. We initially wanted to give one away. He's like, yeah. Why not two, and throw in something else? So what we're doing is we're giving away one of two bottles of Pappy's and we're throwing in a Blanton's exclusive Japanese red label bottle. This thing retails for about 500 bucks. Wow. That's third place like bronze metal, my ass, give me some Blanton's Japanese exclusive. So, so if you want this, this is really easy to, to remember it's free Pappy P A P P Y.com go to freepappy.com. Joel (8m 45s): Give us your info. We'll put your name in the hat to win one of two, 2000 plus dollar bottles of Pappy's or if you're a loser. Yeah. If you're the loser, you get third place, a bottle of Blanton's that you frankly cannot find in probably any liquor store in the US yeah. Chad (9m 2s): I'm drooling over the Blanton's alone, but I got to give Robert big ups. He's always trying to up our bourbon game and it was an automatic it's like, let's talk to Robert about this. He's like, Oh, hell yeah. Pappy's? Let's do it. So once again, Chad and Cheese, given away free, t-shirts mailing to you, your front doorstep, beer front doorstep. Now Pappy Van Winkle. We have first, second and third place. The Pappy Van Winkle is $2,200 a bottle. Jesus. Anyway, we're, we're really excited. Freepappy.com. Joel (9m 40s): Have you had Pappy's before actually, Chad? Chad (9m 42s): I have not, have you? Joel (9m 43s): I have, when I was in Scottsdale, everyone's rich. Everyone's rich, but me, we had some rich friends and he had a bottle of Pappy's and it was quite nice. I can vouch for it's high dollar value. Chad (9m 55s): Like to also give a SHOUT OUT to Isabelle Kent, who is trying to turn me to the rye side of whiskey and Isabel, as soon as I can get a COVID shot, it's on. It is on, we're going to do bourbon versus rye. We're going to enjoy it. And it'll be hard to turn me to rye. I'm telling you that right now, but we're going to try this. Joel (10m 17s): Little, little boss hog might switch you over to the rye stuff. Little boss, hog, shout out to Vets. Goddammit. Veterans day in the U S was this week on Wednesday. Chad, our resident Vet. Chad (10m 31s): Thank you for everybody that did. Joel (10m 32s): You get a bunch of people say, thank you for your service. Is that, is that what happened? Chad (10m 36s): Yeah, I get, I get a bunch of that. So. Joel (10m 39s): Another SHOUT OUT for me, Jordan. Eleven's okay. We've both seen back to the future. One, two, and three, right? Part three. We got the hoverboard. We got the self-lacing Nike's well, they're, they're coming to fruition. Nike today announced the Jordan 11. This is , it laces itself up with an app. You can change the colors, like the primary colors of the shoe. I haven't seen this thing in action. I've only seen a picture, but God damn it. Nike keeps hitting it out of the park and dammit, if they're not making 2020 better, I want a pair of Jordan Eleven's except they're retailing at 500 plus dollars. Joel (11m 22s): So maybe not this year, maybe no one will wear these things except, you know, the super, super cool people with $500 to burn. But anyway, they'll eventually come down and be for dads. And there'll be like the Jordan 394 instead of the Eleven's and we'll be able to afford them. Chad (11m 40s): That is ridiculous. That is ridiculous. I'm coming back to earth here for a minute. So I'd like to give a SHOUT OUT to CVS health who have announced that Karen Lynch will be elevated to CEO making her the 40th female CEO on the Fortune 500 list, Lynch's currently the EBP of CA CVS health and president of Aetna, the insurance company that CVS bought in 2018. So great to see that seat flip per se, to a female. Joel (12m 14s): Very nice. So if you like news, if you like these alerts and things you're talking about on the show, you got to get Chad and Xheese in your pocket. Just text the letters, CC to (833) 799-0321 That's CC to (833) 799-0321 sponsored by our buddies at Emissary who provide text recruiting solutions. Now you can have us a buzzing in your pocket. Whenever a hot news story comes out about recruiting, or maybe if we're just giving away free bourbon, we'll let you know, and you can sign up. Chad (12m 47s): That's always a good thing too. One event next week, November 17th at 2:00 PM Eastern time Friendly Disclosure, Round 3, baby. The topic is robots versus humans where my buddy, Jim Stroud pleads his case on why robots, algorithms and automation will never take over recruiting. And I get to play the Andrew Yang card until Jimmy's wrong and why him and everyone else needs to get on board with universal basic income. So watch the socials and register. Joel (13m 23s): Do we have a tally? Is there a score card with you and Jim at this point? Like who's winning. Is there any kind of analytics around that? Chad (13m 31s): I don't think there's any analytics around opinion. Although if you watch, I mean, it's fairly simple. I win every time. Joel (13m 40s): Okay. So events for me, Recruiters Nation Live. This is Jovite's event that they normally have in beautiful San Francisco, California. Thanks to COVID. It is a virtual event. I'll be, doing a little 10 minute presentation with a little bit of five, five minute Q and A. So they understand that the low, you know, the low attention spans that we get online and they're shrinking the time down. So it should be a nice little, little, a little spit and a little education for people at the RNL live online. It's December 10th. I believe you can find out more at jobvite.com. GuestVoice - sounds like Ryan Reynolds (14m 15s): We'll accept that. Yes. Chad (14m 20s): Yeah. Joel (14m 20s): Smart Recruiters gets a new pal. Yes, It's dropped today. So we we're, this is sort of breaking news for a lot of people. Chad (14m 28s): So it is JobPal chat bot solution based out in Germany, Berlin, I believe. And by the way, SHOUT OUT to our boy Bill Bormans. So Bormann, I don't know if you remember from our naughty or nice show in December from, from Dallas, which I guess was outside of Canada. Our last American event, he talked about JobPal is one of his nice companies. So Bill kind of hit this one out of the park. So JobPal who had raised up to $3 million in financing is now a native chat bot provider for Smart Recruiters, who are calling this thing, Smart Pal, real creative, real creative so-so Smart Pal, native technology for, for chat bot, scheduling interviews, et cetera, prescreening, all the good things chat bots do. Joel (15m 19s): Obviously from my perspective, this is the battle of the platforms, just like Jobvite is buying up companies and iCIMS is buying up companies, smart recruiters, sort of that third player that Dr. Pepper and the ATS game, trying to be a one platform to rule them all. And chat bot is obviously something everyone is going to have to have. I guess, at a $3 million investment that Job pal was probably snapped up a lot cheaper than some of the state state engineered chatbots. So from all, from all points of view, this is a good, good buyer and probably a good price. Chad (15m 55s): I would think so. And I think that any, this is, this is going to be table stakes. For any core platform, you have to have conversational AI/chat bot RPA. This is going to have to be a part of it because you're going to have to provide a much better candidate experience. You're going to have to provide increased candidate conversions, the automated interview scheduling piece. I mean, all those different pieces that conversational AI can provide is going to have to be table stakes for a core platform. And it was smart. I mean, JobPal was integrated or is integrated with Taleo, Workday, SAP, averager cornerstone and obviously Smart Recruiters. Chad (16m 38s): So if you take a look at the playbook and the way that we've seen startups get acquired, it's fairly simple. You focus, you, you become very narrowly focused, unlike ALeo, you become narrowly focused and you work on integrations that make sense for you. These are not all of the core platforms that are out there. These are the ones that they were focusing on. And once they had clients who, who were on, I guess the, the biggest question for me though, Joel, is, you know, why JobPal and why not a smaller chat bot here in the US? Joel (17m 13s): Well, obviously very little was sort of shared on like price. And we don't, you know, I don't know the inner workings of JobPal and I mean, $3 million is not a huge amount of money. That sounds like almost seed funding for a, an operation like this smart recruiters tends to be a little bit more global focused than some other ATSs. So it doesn't surprise me that they would look into Europe for, for sort of bargains to provide this technology. And again, like you said, I mean, the beauty of being an ATS and having a marketplace is you get to see engagement usage, you get to see all the inner workings of a technology, and then you decide like, Oh, this works pretty well and it integrates with our shit pretty nicely. Let's do a deal. I mean, these global deals I think are gonna, are going to be more and more prevalent. Joel (17m 55s): I think, you know, States the state companies buying only companies from the States is going to be less and less of a thing. You're going to see more companies cross-pollinating, you know, from Australia and Europe and South America, more and more. So I think this is a trend that we'll see more of. Chad (18m 11s): If you take a look at it, WhatsApp, We Chat, Facebook messenger, or most of the Eurasia conversational AI and RPA companies had to figure out multiple messaging, messaging platforms much faster due to the choices that candidates had for conversations in their normal daily life. So I personally believe conversational AI or chat bots or RPA companies from across the pond have an edge on American startups because right out of the gate, they have to focus on how do we, how do we meet the market? Here in the US we've met the market one way for the most part SMS, being able to be a global player right out of the gate as a conversational AI platform. Chad (18m 57s): I think in this siloed area of conversational AI that Europe and Asia, they have an edge on the U S from a programmatic standpoint, I think, you know, or, or some of the other technologies, I think it swings back to the US but in conversational AI. Definitely. I think Eurasia. Joel (19m 17s): Yeah. I think one of the advantages of just sort of natively being from somewhere other than the US is you tend to start companies thinking about other languages and cultures and how is this product going to fit into other, other ecosystems? Whereas we, I think we tend to build stuff as English only, and then we sort of plug in, you know, other languages, you know, aside from that. So I do agree that that that is very important and certainly something that people should recognize. I do. I do wonder, you mentioned SMS, where do you think conversational AI leaves, the Techs Recruits, the Emissary's sort of the one-to-one texting platforms. Do you think their Passé, do you think they fit a certain niche, maybe that hard to get, you know, professional, whereas AI or conversational stuff is more high frequency recruiting, where do you think those two co-exist or do they? Chad (20m 11s): Yeah, they do co-exist. I think that when you're talking about having a market in the US there's a lot of money and there are a lot of use cases, right? And SMS is one hell of a use case for here in the United States. That's an entirely different discussion in Europe, right. Where there could be charging in some countries charging per, per text. Right? So that's why they use WhatsApp instead. So it, and I agree, I remember being at Monster and Monster creating a model and then trying to slam that exact same model into every country. They went into and saying, no, it'll work, no it'll work. They weren't looking at culture. They weren't looking at lifestyles. Chad (20m 51s): They weren't looking at how business was more were actually done in those countries. They just tried to slam the US version into it. And I think from a JobPal's standpoint, in this case in many European companies, they have to automatically, as you said, out of the box, think of all these different countries, lifestyle, so on and so forth. So they do have an advantage in some cases. Joel (21m 15s): Yep. Getting to people the way that they communicate and not email or InMail anymore so much is obviously important. And these platforms need to have that as a tool in the toolbox. Chad (21m 25s): Yes. And there was another acquisition. Joel (21m 29s): Yes. Another big one. Speaking of tools in the toolbox, we had one in the podcast world that you got pretty excited about. Chad (21m 36s): Yeah. Spotify acquires Megaphone. And this is a major acquisition as we talk about content. I mean, if you're in this industry, you're in any industry you're talking about content, and then you talk about obviously the different players in that content and how does it, how does it actually fit in? Well, in this case, when Spotify acquired Anchor, anchor.fm up another podcasting platform, everyone took notice because Spotify was obviously cementing themselves in podcast content. Then, they upped the ante with the acquisition of Gimlet Media, with podcasts like Homecoming, which turned into an Amazon original Sandra, Crimetown and a ton of others. Chad (22m 19s): But guests who Gimlet uses to host their podcasts? Joel (22m 24s): Is it Megaphone? Chad (22m 25s): It could be Megaphone. This content acquisition play is bigger than the other two can combined. First off Megaphone is a network podcasting platform, meaning unlike Anchor, who allows anyone on their platform, you have to be a legit podcaster in a legit podcast network, which is weird because I'm not sure we fit that, but Megaphone has Wall Street Journal podcast, Slate podcasts, Disney podcast, Gimlet. We just talked about Marvel podcast, Viacom, CBS interactive, and one of my favorite podcasts of all time, Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History. Chad (23m 7s): And that's just scraping the surface. So as we think about how we do our jobs here in the employment space and how we actually press content out there, how we become more genuine, man, if you're not thinking about podcasting or at least aligning yourself with a podcast, you are way behind the fucking eight ball. Joel (23m 29s): Yeah. So this was a $235 million deal. So as excited as we were about Joe Rogan for a hundred million dollars, this, this sort of door that, you know, to me, I think in addition to the content sort of the ad marketplace that Megaphone brought the table was incredibly appealing to Spotify. And you and I are old enough to remember when blogs were born, right? When blogs became a thing. And, and I speak from experience. The first ads on blogs were sort of these one 25 by one 25 banner ads in the sidebar of your blog, or you'd have like a leaderboard or a skyscraper. And you'd go to a company and say, Hey, do you want to sponsor my blog? Joel (24m 11s): And they'd give you a banner creative and you tell them click throughs. And ultimately that became what was Google's ad sets. So all these bloggers who didn't want to actually sell stuff, just put a piece of code in their blog from Google, and then Google started serving those ads and then paying them based on clicks and impressions eventually. And similarly podcasting is sort of going through a similar evolution. So, whereas, you know, now it's a lot of going to sponsors directly. A lot of podcasters don't want to do that shit, right? They just want to record their shit. And then if they can make some money. Great. So Megaphone has a really cool sort of marketplace where as an advertiser, you know, you upload your, your commercial, you pick channels and things that you want to make sure that your ad is placed on. Joel (24m 57s): So for Spotify to sort of create an automated podcasting ad sense, if you will, where podcasts can get paid more efficiently, and companies can advertise in a more streamlined fashion, I think makes a whole lot of sense and probably will make both Spotify and podcasters a lot of money. And don't forget, a lot of advertisers that used to spend money on things like conferences are going to be looking to new alternatives like podcasting. And if they can do that easily through the Spotify platform or Megaphone or however they build it, then that's a big win for, for everybody. Chad (25m 33s): Yeah. Yeah. And Megaphone is the third platform we've actually been on. And luckily we're with Evergreen. So we can actually get on this platform and it is fucking legit dynamic insertion of ads and those types of things. So I'm really excited to see where this goes and how the Spotify brand Actually takes us further. Joel (25m 55s): Right on. Right on. JobAdX (25m 56s): Whether you're struggling to fill high volume, hourly roles or looking for longterm full time talent, your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. JobAdX (26m 37s): We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit? JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at JobAdX.com. That's JobAdX.com. Joel (27m 16s): Tale of two CEO's this week. Chad (27m 20s): Yeah. Joel (27m 21s): So, so you got tipped off about Hired's CEO. We did a, we did a shred on this. So founded in 2012, these guys have raised 133 million or so dollars. Mehul Patel who's who was the former CEO came in in 2015 and he replaced the then CEO and co-founder Matt Mickiewicz I believe is how you say his name. This to me is, so of the two that we have, this one to me is the runway was shortening. Chad (27m 51s): Yes. Joel (27m 51s): When you, when you, when you get founded in 2012, you've got a six to eight 10. If you're lucky time, period, to have it liquidation event, either go public or get sold and Hired clearly is not on pace to do that. bviously COVID was a nice hiccup and all that. But to me, this was simply the guy in there wasn't getting it done. They needed to make a move. They have not named a replacement. As far as I know, if you go to their about us page, it's still Patel that's the CEO. So if you're looking for a CEO job call up Hired, they might, they might give you an interview. Okay. Chad (28m 27s): Yeah. They're probably trying to save that salary to be quite Frank. Yeah. It, they received the series D in June of 2018. I think it was like around 30 million or something like that. And it looks like they've been on a steady downward trend of losing employees. There are around 130 now. So I, I would predict that's going to continue. And you see companies like this, that they look really polished and they should, they've got a lot of fucking money. Joel (29m 3s): Yeah. These guys started primarily as sort of a way to find tech folks. Chad (29m 8s): Right. Joel (29m 8s): And in 2012, it was really hard to find tech people. You know, since that time we have the evolution of GetHub. We have the evolution of, of sourcing and finding pretty much anybody you want to find online. So in terms of trying to pivot and be some sort of an everything to everybody, I don't think they've ever really fit in. I mean, they should be a platform. They should have been eventually evolving into a place where they were a central technology to provide the ability to connect with all kinds of people, around the world. And they have never really gotten out of, I think, where they started. I don't think, you know, either one of us would claim to be an expert on Hired and the road that they've been on. Joel (29m 51s): But I think that their initial model has definitely faded in importance because of technology and being able to find people online. So, so good luck to them going forward. Chad (30m 1s): This should have been a tech staffing play. Joel (30m 3s): Totally. It should be stack overflow. It should have been something more competitive than what they're doing doing now. Chad (30m 9s): This should have been a play to automate for staffing to be able to increase margins. Joel (30m 13s): Yeah. Yeah. They're founder as well, I don't have his info in front of me, but he had been in some pretty high profile companies there in Silicon Valley. So a little bit, a little bit of it, might've been, you know, someone without a core competency and employment, just coming along and saying, Hey, I can raise a lot of money. I can help find tech people because we did it at my companies that I founded before. And we know that that usually doesn't end well, uncommon for a lot of people that come into our industry. Now, the second CEO that that has has left is a little bit near and dear to our hearts. So, so HiQ the, the hiQ labs versus LinkedIn drama continues. I actually just got an email back from, from one of their, their exact saying that everything is good, which I don't necessarily believe. Joel (31m 1s): They're still in court over LinkedIn, whether or not the Supreme court takes or not. I know they lost a recent battle in terms of antitrust. They tried to get LinkedIn to tie to antitrust cases, which I think the judge throughout we've sorta lost, lost track of this because of, I don't know, just various reasons, but their CEO who we've actually interviewed. So if you want to go back into the, the archives, Mark Wydick has left as CEO. Now he is full time now at a company called simple legal. I don't know if this is a case of just getting really tired from finding an 800 pound gorilla called Microsoft LinkedIn. It doesn't look good at the moment for hiQ labs. Chad (31m 44s): The hard part about any of these David and Goliath scenarios here in the United States is that the one with the most money usually wins. And that's the hard part. And as we try to talk about innovation, we try to talk about entrepreneurship. It's all really smoke and mirrors, if a big company wants to come and drink your milkshake, it's just all there is to it. So as we, you know, like to talk about David and Goliath scenarios, for the most part, if you have more money, you are going to win, much like we saw with prop 22. So I'm hoping because the SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the US), the SCOTUS decision was supposed to happen around October, sometime, obviously that didn't happen as this continues to get pushed off. Chad (32m 33s): Obviously it's much harder for a smaller organization to continue to operate. So, you know, I, again, really, we're in there for hiQ a hoping that SCOTUS can actually get a decision on this. And we can at least try to understand whether a person's information is their own or if Facebook and LinkedIn and all those other platforms actually own your shit. Joel (32m 58s): Yeah. Look, these, these big companies have armies of lawyers and their life. Their role in life is to crush anyone who doesn't have the resources to fight you. And the LinkedIn knew, even if LinkedIn isn't right, or when this court battle, they knew that if they just drag this shit out for years and years, that hiQ or any other startup wouldn't have the resources to fight them in a lengthy war and inevitably hiQ, they're going to go out of business and LinkedIn will win by default because there just won't be any case left to fight. And it's also really, it's unfortunate that there's a lot of fear in these kinds of situations. Joel (33m 40s): So anyone who's looking, anyone who gets a cease and desist from LinkedIn is really gonna think twice around, do we fight this or do we just shut the doors and go home or try to pivot somewhere else? The unfortunate truth is 99.9% are going to just close the doors or try to pivot. I applaud hiQ as I think you do as well for even fighting the fight. We'll see how it ends up. It's a real David and Goliath story, but in the real world, Goliath, 99 out of a hundred times, 999 out of a thousand times, wins this battle. And most of that time is just because of attrition. Chad (34m 15s): It's money, it's money. Joel (34m 17s): That's America. Chad (34m 18s): Well, hopefully we see something that's not running out of gas and that's women competing in the workplace. So Goldman Sachs study actually shows companies with more women in management have outperformed their male led peers. This is from Business Insider. So in a basket of 600 European stocks companies with more female leadership saw their share price outperform on average, by 2.5% a year, compared with companies with less women leaders. Having a greater proportion of women in senior senior leadership positions is not just a diversity score to target, but is associated with lower cost of equity, stronger share price performance, and lower volatility of shares. Chad (35m 13s): The hard part about this is then as we talk about CVS seating, number 40 of female CEOs, that's 8% of the fortune 500 CEO positions when just here in the US females comprise 51% of the population. And there's also another story that shows female led startups have been disproportionately low over the years and actual funding. The number of unicorn private companies valued in excess of 1 billion, headed by women have grown over five fold. Chad (35m 57s): So even though these females are getting a lot less money and there are fewer of them, they are kicking ass and taking names on the startup front as well. So the big question is why, why is there such such disparity? Joel (36m 13s): I tend not to focus on the disparity as I do the trend and everything is going on the right side of history with this. So if you look at, you know, I think it's 70, some percent of valedictorians in high school are females. I think 56% of college graduates now are females. We look at role models, whether it's the current vice president, you know, the world is trending towards women and that's going to happen regardless. I don't know if COVID, is increasing the pace at which this is happening. I guess time will tell on that. But I just, I think there are entrenched cultural behaviors that are hard to crack, but eventually they do crack and crumble and females getting into the business world in a big way and having influence in a big way. Joel (37m 6s): I think it's indicative that that Europe is such, I guess, a beacon for what's going on, whether it be in government or in corporate corporate life, that women are taking such a forceful role and an important role in terms of how companies and governments are being shaped, good old America tends to be behind trends like that. And this is no different, but I think eventually, you know, that that wall will crumble. The glass will break. I think we're seeing it happen maybe too slow for most people, but it is happening. Chad (37m 39s): The world economic forum projects is going to take 257 years at our current rate to close the gender pay gap. So should females wait another 257 years to actually close the hiring gap? I mean, I appreciate adding three seats, I think three or four seats just this year, but that at that rate, that is not something that we can applaud or get behind it. This has to happen at a faster rate and to be quite frank when we have 40 females that are a top fortune 500 companies, not one of them, zero are black females. Chad (38m 20s): So what this tells, what is this telling our kids? What is this telling the rest of the world, about us in America? Again, beating our chest saying we're so damn good at everything, but we can't even get equity done right? Joel (38m 33s): You know, vote with your wallet, buy from companies, that champion, this movement and how we do that. Exactly. The, I don't know. I mean, obviously the, the pay gap that you, that you referenced is real and it's huge, and it's unfortunate. What's going to speed that up. I'm not an expert on that topic or how that, that does. We've interviewed people that think they know, but just giving money to a certain, a certain segment of the population and saying, start businesses is harder to do than say, so it's a complex problem. And I'm not sure either one of us are gonna figure it out on an hour long podcast. Chad (39m 10s): Transparency's key. As soon as we can see the workforce composition, and we can start to see the actual angles of those individuals who are getting promoted and also those wages, then everything becomes a hell of a lot more simple. It's complex because we don't have the information. Joel (39m 28s): We don't have the data. As soon as we have that, everybody, everything becomes crystal fucking clear. Amen. Well, speaking of data, yes, let's hear from Sovren. And we'll talk about Mexico. Sovren (39m 42s): You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match. The sovereign engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren matching isn't some frustrating black box, "trust us, it's magic," Sovren (40m 25s): one shot deal. Like all the others now with Sovren matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel (40m 40s): And hopefully that dinner has Mexican food on the menu cause that's my personal favorite. Chad (40m 45s): And Pappy! Joel (40m 46s): And Pappy, yeah. Good luck, finding a restaurant outside of Kentucky with Pappy in the bar. So it's good to know that the US is not the only country that's having issues with contract workers. We talked about prop 22 last week with Uber and Lyft and others. Mexico has certain issues with, they call it outsourcing, which is essentially contract workers. And the it's so bad. The Mexican president is threatening to ban the whole thing. Like no contract workers whatsoever. Now companies are apparently really abusing the shit in terms of giving benefits and, and, you know, annual pay, pay commissions, and benefits one company that is really scrutinized at the moment, apparently off everybody that was a contract worker in November, and then hired them all back in February. Joel (41m 40s): And the reason they did that was because they, they didn't want to pay them their annual sort of commission. So that's sort of what they're dealing with there, obviously some serious pay issues in Mexico, the minimum wage, there is $5.50 cents per day, which is yes, if you're doing the math well under a dollar per hour. So anything that's cruise the workers is a big, bad thing. And the Mexican president is hoping to change that around obviously, companies aren't too happy about it. We'll see how that plays out. Chad (42m 15s): Yeah. So the Mexico's Employers Federation, a business group said, quote, this would have a great impact on the already seriously deteriorated economic situation and would mean the loss of considerable number of legitimate and properly paid jobs. So we see this exact kind of shit here in the US where companies, engineer excuses to pay people an incredibly low wage while their profit margins grow. So overall, the wage gap turns into a wage chasm and we relegate more humans to poverty. And the thing that I don't get is that, you know, we, we only get one life, right? Chad (43m 0s): I mean, all of us, unless you believe in reincarnation, but we only get one life and thinking about a family living in poverty in Mexico or United States, while others are buying yachts and multiple homes, I mean, again, I think we really have to focus on our humanity overall and making sure that we are not leaving people behind, but yet we're giving them an opportunity to lift themselves up and not paying them substandard wages. And you can see that's exactly what's happening in Mexico as well. Joel (43m 34s): Workers of the world unite, I believe in reincarnation because I want to come back as my dog because he lives large. Chad, we out. Chad (43m 44s): We out. OUTRO (44m 7s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

SmartRecruiters founder and CEO Jerome Ternynck is a true industry veteran, who's forgotten more about This is why I actually I started SmartRecruiters, right? I'm like, okay, what's next? So we know why you started SmartRecruiters. I want to talk about the book. You're not going to be interviewing on behalf of SmartRecruiters anymore. That's right, our guest, Jerome Ternynck, the CEO of SmartRecruiters wrote that book.

SmartRecruiters is hunkering down for a world of free, and so should everyone else. #Google #Monster #Skype #Dice #Indeed #SmartRecruiters

iconic in millennial terms - Matt Charney sits down with the boys for a chat about his latest role at SmartRecruiters Matt (43m 38s): Smartrecruiters.com of course, no at Matt Charney on Twitter.

conferences are competing for Darwin Awards - Staffing agencies are getting gobbled up by job sites - SmartRecruiters

Here's a taste: CareerBuilder has a new CEO, PandoLogic has been acquired and SmartRecruiters is a unicorn

CareerBuilder, Remote.com, SHRM, SmartRecruiters, and even Burger King all feel the burn. If you take a look at the website, they still have, SmartRecruiters still has 70 positions open.

Uber finally treating drivers like human beings in the UK, SmartRecruiters getting smarter, Charter kicks

Applicant Tracking Systems (ATS), love 'em or hate 'em they're the core technology of life as a Talent Acquisition and Recruiting professional. The diversification of different ATS brand visions are finally taking us past the days of tech debt heavy dinosaurs like Taleo and VirtualEdge. Madeline Laurano, Founder of Aptitude Research shares information from newly published research entitled Talent Acquisition Systems Mapping a New Path. In this episode we dig into areas many ATS vendors have never gone like: - Is Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion just fluff in an ATS? - AI matching technology become priority - All CRM's are NOT created equal - Getting serious about "Candidate Communication" - Why is Internal Mobility still an unknown? Texting amazingness brought to you by Nexxt. Wait, you're not using texting to attract talent? Get your ass to Nexxt.com now :) DOWNLOAD REPORT PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your bridge to the disability community, delivering custom solutions in outreach, recruiting, talent management and compliance. INTRO (1s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.irls. Chad (22s): Welcome everybody to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I am Chad Sowash. If you listened before you already know that one thing you're going to notice though, is we're going to have a lactose free podcast today because we have drum roll, please. Madeline Laurano, she's come back! She's the heavily acclaimed industry, expert analyst and founder of Aptitude Research. How are you doing? Madeline (52s): Hi Chad, thanks for having me back. I'm glad I didn't spoil it last time and you wanted me to come back? Chad (57s): Oh, you were a hit. I don't know if it was because Cheeseman wasn't on the podcast or just that you're so delightful. I think it's the latter or it could be a combination of both. I don't know. What are you feeling? A little deja VU. Madeline (1m 9s): I am, I am. And it's been a lot of change since we last talked and we talked about programmatic and all the new announcements to Seek Out and some of the other providers and much more has happened since then! Chad (1m 21s): Before we jump into today's research, tell me how was the programmatic research received? Madeline (1m 28s): Very well. I was very happy with it. I think, you know what we talked about last time and I think it still holds true is that I think a lot of people don't understand exactly what programmatic is. And they think that either, as you said, it's just job distribution or they think of it as something that just is going to be an added expense. And I think, you know, what we really tried to show is that this is something that can help reduce costs and streamline advertising. So I was happy with how it came out. Chad (1m 53s): Oh, you don't know how many programmatic companies and agencies. I mean, they were all over it. There were texting me. They're messaging me. They're like this research is lit. I don't say that my kids say that, but anyway, I mean, it was, it was awesome. So if you haven't seen the programmatic research go to aptituderesearch.com, right? Madeline (2m 16s): Exactly. Chad (2m 17s): And it's available there, but today we're going to be talking about your new research and this is, programmatic was big, but this is like the grand daddy, grand mama of them all. So what are we going to be talking about today? Madeline (2m 33s): We are going to be talking about the good old ATS market. And it does feel like a child because it took so long to put this research together. It feels like it feels like another child or grandchild for me. So it's been a big report. We really studied the ATS market to look at what's changed? What these providers are doing, and we profiled 13 of the leading providers in the market that met a certain criteria. Chad (2m 56s): Now, are you picking these or are these companies who are saying, Hey, we want to be involved or is it kind of like a combination of both? Madeline (3m 5s): That's a great question. It's a combination of both. I think a lot of, you know, I'll put out some tweets earlier at the end of last year and said, you know, we're going to look at doing this again. A lot of providers called right away and said, when does this start? And to me, it really had to meet a criteria and they have to be providers that come up in the interviews I do with corporations. And there were some, unfortunately that just did not meet that criteria. Chad (3m 27s): Ah, gotcha. Gotcha. So it's actually entitled Talent Acquisition Systems 2021: Mapping a New Path. What the hell does that mean? Mapping a New Path? Madeline (3m 39s): Well, I think it's interesting because I always try to think about what's the main theme and I've said it before and you know, it's always kind of been ATS is not enough. You know, the ATS itself has just a tracking engine, a workflow engine. It's not enough. We need CRM, we need onboarding. But this year the theme mapping a new path is really that every provider is going in a different direction. It's not apples to apples anymore. It's not this commoditized market. Some providers are going into talent management. Some providers are sticking with TA. Some providers are trying to do this whole skills framework, currency type of scenario. So it's, to me, it's looking at this market that's been in place for so long and seeing how everyone's trying to go in a very unique direction right now. Chad (4m 21s): So can you say, cause I can definitely say that the ATS market right now is probably the most exciting since maybe when it actually launched back in the early oughts? Madeline (4m 33s): I think so. And also I think in the 2005, 2006 timeframe, when all those acquisitions happened, Virtual Edge, Brass Ring, that was exciting too, just because of acquisitions. This is bang for another reason it's companies are spending more money. They're looking at their providers more strategically and they're replacing tons of companies, are replacing their ATS systems this year. It's crazy. Yeah. Chad (4m 54s): Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you say that back in 2005, around that timeframe, all the acquisitions had happened. They went to much larger organizations where they literally just went to die. Madeline (5m 5s): Just to die. It was like where ATS is going to die. They go to big companies and then nothing happens. And what we're seeing right now, and this will come out in the report is a lot of those larger companies that bought ATSs are and have redone them in a very significant way. I mean, ADP and Oracle are two examples. What you're going to see from their ATS is with Orr and with what ATP ADP's offering. It's really impressive. I was very impressed with bot. Chad (5m 33s): But they're a total new platform. They're not using the old plumbing at all. That technical debt is way too heavy. So they're flushing that shit that they bought down the toilet and they're actually creating from the ground up. Madeline (5m 46s): Completely. Goodbye, Virtual Edge, goodbye Tulio, we're rebuilding this whole thing and hoping to retain the Tulio-Virtual Edge customers in the process. Chad (5m 56s): It might be easier than keeping them on the same old that they are right now. Right? Madeline (6m 2s): Exactly. Chad (6m 2s): So we're going to tease, like we did the programmatic research. We're going to tease the ATS research with just bits and pieces. You have a top 10 trends, which I have a scaled down, boiled down to Chad's top five. Madeline (6m 16s): That sounds great. Okay. Okay. Chad (6m 17s): So, so I'm going to hit you with these, my top five from your report, and then we can dig into it a little bit deeper. So number one, DEI is the new AI, but DEI is a differentiator. It's never been a differentiator in ATS before. Why is it a differentiator now? And truly, is this just more of like a vapor kind of DEI? What's going on here? Madeline (6m 41s): Yeah, I think it's, I think it's all of the above. It's certainly never been a trend in the ATS market. I mean, I think I never talked about it. We'd probably always should have been a trend, but it wasn't. And I think what's happening now is you're seeing a lot of organizations. They have budget for D and I, and they're looking at their talent acquisition technology to spend some of that budget. So the ATS providers are saying, aha, let's start to market a little bit more of this into our messaging and what I mean by a differentiator, is there some providers where it's just marketing, it's just saying, this is a priority we can help you with your diversity needs. We can help you, you know, improve diversity hiring. And then there are others and it's not all of them that have really taken a strong stance to say, we're going to start internally. Madeline (7m 26s): We're going to look at our own culture. We're going to look at the diversity of our leadership. We're going to look at having a chief diversity officer. We're going to start there. Then we're going to look at the services that we are customers and partner with them. And then we're going to look at our product. And I think when you think about the product, everyone thinks matching is like these, the be all end all in diversity, it's like this, this solves the diversity question, but it's not. To me it's the analytics it's are you able to show really powerful insights that companies can see and say, wow, look what we're doing when we attract people? We're not doing enough. What can we each, how can we look at the job descriptions? How can we look at the interview process and make this more fair and inclusive? Madeline (8m 8s): And that that's very powerful. So you'll see in the report, there are some providers that are really called out for the work they're doing there. Chad (8m 16s): I have to say that in this area, there is so much vaporware number one. And then number two, if an organization, if a vendor has not eaten their own dog food, if they haven't actually started to boost their own diversity hiring efforts, they shouldn't even be talking about DEI overall. So I think from this segment, and I'm not sure that you put those disclaimers on there, if they are not really focused on diversity, equity and inclusion in their own organization, how badly do you think they really want it for you in their technology? Madeline (8m 52s): Exactly. And you know what? I'm starting to see more and more RFPs from corporations to include those questions, to say, we don't want to just know about the product. What are you doing as a provider in your company to address this? Do you have dedicated roles? What is your leadership team look like? What does your board look like? And those are appropriate questions. Chad (9m 14s): Yeah. So DEI number one, AI is my number two. AI matching is a priority and we all know that AI matching is an incredibly heavy lift. And if you're talking to an applicant tracking system one day and they don't have AI matching, but then the next day they do, they probably don't have AI matching unless they acquired somebody. So what did, what did you find in the report? Madeline (9m 38s): Yeah. I mean the, you, we both love the matching space. I mean, I think we can talk like hours and hours. We can do a series of podcasts on matching. So I love the matching space and it's very interesting to look at the ATS market right now because you've got these matching providers, like Hired Score, and Eightfold and Seek Out now that are really putting a lot into their thought on ethical AI or thinking about candidate consent. They're trying to figure out public versus internal communities of how they look for candidates. Then you've got the ATS is where it becomes more of an efficiency AI model. It's saying, Oh, we just want to, to move people across and help you make faster decisions. It's efficiency and it's free. Madeline (10m 19s): It's included in the ATS versus an investment. So I think it's becoming a very interesting area right now where some of the ATS is have made a little bit more investment in AI matching than others have, but you still have these standalone providers with very robust, you know, matching capabilities. And I think we're going to really see something happen in the next few years as to is this something that should be in our ATS and are these providers really going to make more of an investment here or is this going to be a standalone market? Chad (10m 50s): That's, that's a very good question. Because as we've seen over the years, when a bigger platform buys a point solution, does that point solution generally get better? So I'm going to say for the most part, not so much, right? So is that really the way that we should be going or much like the, a Mapping a New Path, maybe it's a, it's a, it's a new way for applicant tracking systems to start to become accountable and take responsibility for things that should be a part of a core system, much like diversity, equity and inclusion. Right? Madeline (11m 26s): Absolutely. And I think it becomes challenging. You know, I know like you're going to have to cut me off with this matching conversation, but I know it becomes challenging because when you're investing in a solution, like a third-party solution for matching you're spending money, so you can hold providers accountable, you can say, what are you doing? What's your approach to AI. We're not seeing the results we see. We want to see. But when you're looking at an ETF that includes it for free in the product, you don't really hold them accountable as much. It's free there. You know, we like our matches. We don't like matches. We don't think it works. We're not going to complain. So that, that becomes interesting too, where, you know, we're not necessarily holding the HS providers as accountable for the AI matching that we would when we make an investment. Madeline (12m 7s): Yeah. Stay tuned for a Madeline in Chad series on AI matching. I'm going to go ahead and hit one. Excellent. All CRMs are not created equal. And this is something that your research, we all, I think kind of understand, hopefully, but your research digs into this. Tell me what you found. Yeah. So I think everybody's trying to check that box, the CRM box to say, we've got it. We've got it. Right. Chad (12m 32s): These are all boxes, right? They feel, this feels like an RFP kind of like menu. I checked the box, but is it really a box checker? Okay Madeline (12m 39s): Exactly. Is it really a box checker? And I think it, everybody wants a CRM. If you're an enterprise company, you need something pre applicant. So you need a way to manage your talent pipelines. You need to be able to think about this. And the ATS are all saying we have this, but some of them have made very significant investments that we've made acquisitions and others it's, you know, Tim Sackett calls it a light CRM. And I think that's probably very accurate. Chad (13m 3s): We're seeing companies. And it's funny because I've talked to so many platforms where as soon as I say, I want to see it, they're like, well, it's kind of like, it's really a light CRM. It's like, I don't even know what that means. It just seems like most of these pieces are box checkable. But the beautiful part about this for me, and keep me honest here, is that when you dig into some of these things like DEI, CRMs, so on and so forth, you will deny those applicant tracking systems, a box check, because you don't feel like they've actually covered that base. Madeline (13m 37s): Yeah. And we called out those that have really significant, you know, significantly better CRMs. I mean, Jobvite is one example. I mean, they made a significant acquisition and telemetry, and that is a true recruitment marketing platform CRM. When you look at Avature, they started as a CRM, that's going to be very different than a provider that's just checking the box. So, and then there's others that are, they're making investments there. So it's interesting anyone that reads the report you'll see, you'll see my commentary on CRM. Chad (14m 7s): So the next one candidate communication, we're not just talking about being able to send an automated email that says thank you for applying or an automated text message that says, thank you for applying. This goes beyond that. How much more beyond that is candidate communication today? Madeline (14m 25s): Yeah. It's really interesting because to me, that's the candidate experience, right? It's the communication piece and we don't, we don't do it, especially for people rejected. Like we're not telling them until after we've already made decisions that they've even, we're sometimes not even telling them at all. So we looked at it for all the different channels of communication. I mean, everybody has a different way that they like to communicate. So we looked at the providers that have integrations with collaboration tools like Slack and Teams. iCIMs made a huge announcement with Teams this year. And then we look at those providers that have integrations with the messaging apps, WhatsApp, WeChat. Do you want to be a global provider and you don't have an integration with WeChat, that's going to be a little bit challenging. So yeah, so we really looked at all the different possibilities for communication. Madeline (15m 9s): And that to me was where there were the biggest gaps. Is the communication check boxes. Chad (15m 16s): Canvas who was acquired by Jobvite. Yep. You have JobPal, which is more across the pond. JobPal was acquired by Smart Recruiters. So you have more of a robust, I would say language focused type of experience. So we're seeing, we're seeing investment at least. Madeline (15m 33s): Yeah, exactly. And JobPal's great because they integrate with WeChat and WhatsApp, they're European provider. So we're seeing these investments being made and we're seeing, you know, whether it's text or conversational AI or the partnerships happening. And I think we'll continue to see that, but it's definitely being asked for in RFPs. So. Chad (15m 51s): What was, iCIMS the first one with text recruit, really, to start breaking into this candidate communication segment? Madeline (15m 57s): I think for sure. And I think Jobvite was not too far after that. Yeah. Chad (16m 2s): Yeah. Okay. My last one and this is because most people talk about this a lot, whether it's, I mean, people are talking about DEI and AI all the time, but we're starting to hear more about internal mobility and it seems to still be an unknown. Why is that? Madeline (16m 18s): I pulled up a report that I did when I worked at iCIMS like 13 years ago, something like that. And it was an ATS report. So it was similar. It was this monster report and a whole page from it. I took a screenshot, I'll send it to you, but it had this whole thing on internal mobility. And it was the same thing we're talking about now. And it was no coincidence. It was 2008. We're going through the recession. And everybody was worried that we all focus on internal mobility. And I think with internal mobility, there are these waves where it's a priority when we're nervous that hiring is going to be down and external hiring is going to be down or they're going to be hiring freezes. And then we sort of fall off a little bit and don't know what to do with it. I mean, it's an important area for companies, but I think, you know, it becomes more of a priority based on the economy. Madeline (17m 4s): And, you know, I don't think that's necessarily good or bad. I just think right now what I'm seeing is companies aren't talking about it as much as they were, and they're not necessarily looking at technology providers for that. A lot of the work has to be done internally. Do recruiters have to be responsible for internal mobility? Is that HR job? Do you know? It's an interesting conversation. Chad (17m 24s): Is this HRS baby, is this town acquisitions, baby? How long does talent acquisition actually own the experience until it gets pushed off to somebody else? But from my standpoint, I agree, this seems to be very, very cycle driven. Even though internal mobility should be something that we think about on an every day basis, because we want to keep, we always talk about, you know, we want to keep good talent that happens through promotions, that through the ability to find mentors, to be able to up-skill and those types of things that in itself you would think could be wrapped in an amazing experience that would start at least with the applicant tracking system. Chad (18m 4s): Right? Madeline (18m 5s): Yeah. I mean, I think that's absolutely the ideal situation. And I think, you know, the more companies can understand why it's important, not just during these cycles, but year round, the more we'll see it. And not just from the ATSs, I mean, some of the RPOs have, have made announcements with what they're doing for internal mobility and re-skilling, and up-skilling too. Chad (18m 25s): Yeah, very smart. So the last thing I want to talk to you about is there's all this amazing technology data, DEI, AI, CRM. So many acronyms, we can throw all over the place, but when a company fails to implement appropriately or they want to jam their 1990s, early two thousands process methodologies into new day tech, how do we as an industry move forward, if we're still playing old carton horse processes and trying to push new technologies. I mean, is this really something that tech can fix, I guess is the question? Madeline (19m 5s): It's a great question. I know we've talked about this so much. And the answer, I mean, I think the short answer is no. I mean, you have to think about your processes too. And if you have these broken processes from the 1990s and you haven't done much to reevaluate them, you know, DNI is a perfect example. If you're not thinking about as a core of what you're doing in recruiting to think about diversity hiring and to think about inclusivity and fairness, then you're going to have a really hard time with any technology being able to address that. And I think they, I don't think it has to be one or the other. I mean, I used to think that you have to have your processes fixed and then you invest in technology. I think it can happen at the same time, but there has to be a commitment to thinking differently about talent acquisition than what's been done in the past. Chad (19m 48s): Agreed a hundred percent. And, here's the hard question is this where we start getting marketing involved because they really focus on experience and they also have larger budgets? Madeline (20m 0s): Yes. And I think we don't take advantage of those opportunities internally, like marketing has done some of this work and marketing understands the importance of experience and, you know, programmatic was one example of that. And yet those conversations don't happen internally. I think the more that companies can facilitate those conversations with marketing, and I don't think there's, you know, a bad, a bad relationship between TA and marketing. It's just that those conversations aren't happening, you know, but I think it's a great example. Chad (20m 29s): Yeah. I think it's non-existent to some, to some degree, right? Not, not to a business impact degree. Right? Well, Madeline Larano, everybody, this report is coming out very, very soon. When is this actually coming out? Madeline (20m 44s): April 15th is the launch date and yeah. And we'll be promoting it all month so you can follow along and aptitude HCM on Twitter or Matt Tarquin on Twitter too, but we'll be, it's all free too. It's free. Chad (20m 59s): Go to aptituderesearch.com. We're going to be launching the podcast on Wednesday. So we're going to be teasing this up really, really fat and happy. We will also have the link in the show notes. So definitely click on it, download it. It is a major report and read. So if you are in talent acquisition, if you're in this space at all, and you care about core tech, this is something that you have to dig into. So Madeline, I appreciate you coming on the show. I appreciate you doing all this work because it is a gorgeous report and there are a lot of good pieces of information in here. Madeline (21m 36s): I appreciate you having me. You're the first person to see it. So I'm thrilled that you speak so highly of it. Thanks, Chad. Chad (21m 42s): I'm stoked for you coming back on and we'll talk about that, that AI matching series later. I appreciate it. We out. Outro (22m 5s): This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast, subscribe on iTunes, Google play or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show and be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more visit Chadandcheese.com. Oh yeah. You're welcome.

Chad: Second time with SmartRecruiters too. Rebecca: Second time with SmartRecruiters. At the time, SmartRecruiters was going through a bit of transition. As a good example, we use Slack almost entirely here at SmartRecruiters. At SmartRecruiters, it helps just by investing in representation. Rebecca: Smartrecruiters.com. Joel: Easy enough. Rebecca: Easy enough.

And they say, "Oh, I work at SmartRecruiters." And they're like, "Oh, really?" "I was one of the founding engineers of SmartRecruiters." What, what does SmartRecruiters become? What is next for SmartRecruiters inside of SAP? experience, but building the SmartRecruiters experience of the future.

Allyn Bailey from SmartRecruiters joins Chad & Cheese to explain why breaking your ATS is a feature And we welcome Allyn Bailey, Senior Director of Communications at SmartRecruiters. Well, I mean, I think I've always, one of the things, I was a big proponent of SmartRecruiters before And I think SmartRecruiters has been a company that has been very welcoming of that. Chad Sowash: So SmartRecruiters is also open to a very large pivot.

Live from the SmartRecruiters booth at HR Tech in Las Vegas, this one is all beef, no filler. Joel: You're almost in Euro Chad mode here in the SmartRecruiters booth. Joel: My shout out to SmartRecruiters. What an amazing imagery design that they've given us here. SmartRecruiters, thanks so much. We're going to be at Paradox Client board. Joel: We are live from the SmartRecruiters booth at HR Tech.

What, what's the, what's the future look like for SmartRecruiters to be able to get away from multiple Chad Sowash: So a hiring manager doesn't have to go into SmartRecruiters. , some aspects of their, their, their business over into SmartRecruiters." So, we, we actually, the way we, we did it internally, we told customers, right, uh, "We're SmartRecruiters into this integration product, you can start to do, you know, obviously other point solutions into SmartRecruiters

In this episode, Allyn Bailey , Senior Director of Comms at SmartRecruiters, sits down with Chad Sowash Uh, and SmartRecruiters had its, a different superpower this time last year. And so these point solutions, SmartRecruiters is one of them, umm, came into the door and said, "We can the organization, but full cooperation from a much larger organization that could literally balloon SmartRecruiters order for us to build successfully, instead of us being two camps, SAP SuccessFactors engineers and SmartRecruiters

TECH ISN'T THE PROBLEM In this episode of Mallorca Talks, Chad Sowash and Rebecca Carr, CEO of SmartRecruiters I see a great opportunity for SmartRecruiters in the SAP world because it covers so many verticals of Is there a perceivable model where SmartRecruiters or the connective tissue of the... The... Yeah. 0:37:06.0 Chad Sowash: I'll ask you to step outside of your SmartRecruiters CEO body. I look at how we've transformed SmartRecruiters.

escaped the clutches of Kenexa BrassRing (aka the AOL dial-up of recruiting systems) and slid into SmartRecruiters Winston, SmartRecruiters’ new AI sidekick, and why trust is harder to earn than a free breadstick. So as we work with SmartRecruiters, as an example, we were early adopters of their matching tool. As we work with SmartRecruiters, the message has been, "Look, the outputs of these things have to be

Next up, it’s SmartRecruiters’ Winston AI squaring off against those crusty old ATS relics—think Rocky While SmartRecruiters had a live on stage Apple iPhone unveiling of Winston. SmartRecruiters went the iPhone route because it was big, right? SmartRecruiters is the only one I believe who is committed to doing just that. Joel Cheesman (43:00.172) I love what SmartRecruiters is doing.

Apparently, SmartRecruiters botched an acquisition. That's right. The acquisition of SmartRecruiters last minute fell through. So to be clear, SmartRecruiters, the applicant tracking system, was looking at being acquired by another And we have reported that many key leaders on the SmartRecruiter staff have left over the past few months And SmartRecruiters is one of them, apparently.

That's where popular ATS solution SmartRecruiters comes in. So we're really trying to say, look, we have a thousand enterprises using SmartRecruiters some huge names So that's kind of a lot of people that are actually going through SmartRecruiters software every month You mentioned how many applicants SmartRecruiters gets, how many resumes you're you're processing? We're not meaning to make this as much SmartRecruiters initiatives. So go there and be part of it.

We spoke to Rebecca Carr at SmartRecruiters. But real quick, I wanna shout out to SmartRecruiters. She has a great history with SmartRecruiters. She left, came back. Joel: Yep. Joel: So, you're saying that not as a SmartRecruiter's shareholder... Chad: No, no.

Recorded live from the SmartRecruiters booth at the HR Tech conference, this episode features an engaging HR Tech, the SmartRecruiters booth. I'm Cheese, he's Chad, and we are here with Stefan Premdas.

So somebody who's not excited right now, there's some rumors over at SmartRecruiters remember a few weeks ago when SmartRecruiters's acquisition was fumbled. I mean, it's very turbulent times at SmartRecruiters. Joel: I mean, iCIMs, SmartRecruiters, greenhouse, we've talked about IPOs, like there seems to be no SmartRecruiters, man. Chad: There you go. Joel: I got nothing. I got nothing.

Rebecca Carr , CEO at SmartRecruiters: Because recruiting needs to be smart, obviously. She's the CEO at SmartRecruiters. They both had something to say about tech trends in 2024. you're seeing, the amount of growth, any kind of cool technologies that you're seeing being built onto SmartRecruiters There's actually, some of the coolest and most interesting to SmartRecruiters are the people doing things

tech is racing toward consolidation and convergence Featuring voices from Glean, Marriott, Domino’s, SmartRecruiters was filmed on stage in Madrid and is called AI for HR Transforming Hiring with Rebecca Carr, CEO of Smartrecruiters ain't broke, break it. 0:18:18.2 S8: Yeah. 0:18:21.6 S2: And that's exactly what you're doing with Smartrecruiters Well, Allyn Bailey, senior director of comms at Smartrecruiters, she has some answers.

We are live at HR Tech from the SmartRecruiters booth. Chad, that is another one in the can live from the SmartRecruiters booth at HR Tech. We out.

[laughter] Omar Khateeb: And then the one that we're gonna be announcing very soon is SmartRecruiters We're gonna become SmartRecruiters official video provider to all their clients. If you partner with SmartRecruiters for example, first before anyone else, you tend to get their customers

SAP just bought SmartRecruiters—because nothing says “innovation” like a 52-year-old German ERP giant In this episode: SAP shells out for SmartRecruiters—will it be a glow-up or a graveyard?

ICIMS was getting money, Greenhouse, SmartRecruiters, like you can go back in our archives and this was Queue the SmartRecruiters news from last week of a failed deal that didn't go go through.

Another nightmare that I've heard of that's coming is SmartRecruiters. SmartRecruiters, they've had...

She actually has three legs of her trip, but what she's doing today is she's in San Francisco with SmartRecruiters Again, that's a SmartRecruiters event, so good on SmartRecruiters.

We are live from the SmartRecruiters booth at HR Tech in beautiful Las Vegas. Yes.

ZipRecruiter and Breakroom, Workday and HiredScore. '23, we started seeing this with Lever going to Employ, SmartRecruiters

We've hosted webinars and events with them that extends to ATS platforms, Greenhouse, SmartRecruiters

We can do a stand alone, but we highly recommend that our clients integrate with Taleo, Connexus, SmartRecruiters

We've just announced our partnership with SmartRecruiters, it was in Yahoo! SmartRecruiters.

"SmartRecruiters has not announced that change to its customers yet about Rebecca Carr becoming the interim

In this episode, Chad, JT & Emi break down how Workday + Paradox and/or SAP + SmartRecruiters could go

Chad: So it's interesting because it looks like a Workfellow, much like SmartRecruiters, had a botched

Shout out to SmartRecruiters, we always fall for this. Chad: We're suckers. So they were pretty nice, SmartRecruiters said, quote, "The show listens like classic morning radio with

Have you read SmartRecruiters' "Diversity Hiring Report"? Just go to SmartRecruiters.com and you'll see the link to the toolkit. Those are free assessments, and they can be taken online at smartrecruiters.com. So thank you.

What's SmartRecruiters move? Etcetera. It's gonna be a lot of fun to watch.

So as iCIMS sees Paradox go to Workday, SmartRecruiters go to SAP. They see two major potential...

But, so no, I think we partner with them, and then, I can see go a little upstream, you have SmartRecruiters

SmartRecruiters. What does that mean to a job seeker? I know what Glassdoor is.

As for the mainstream ones, it's Taleo, SmartRecruiters, iCIMS, Greenhouse, Lever, and a coupe of others