HiBob Beast Mode & DOL Dismantles Worker Protections
- Chad Sowash
- 14 hours ago
- 39 min read
Naps, Tattoos, HiBob, and the "SaaSpocalypse" That Wasn't
On this episode of HR’s Most Dangerous Podcast, hosts Chad and Cheese cover a wide spectrum of workplace trends, tech investments, and controversial news:
Nap Culture & Red Carpets
Workday beats expectations
The "SaaSpocalypse" Debunked
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel Cheesman (00:35.859)
Aw yeah. Wake me up when September ends. Hey boys and girls, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co host, Joel Let Data Rain, Cheeseman.
Chad Sowash (00:47.381)
this is Chad Nap Culture Sobash.
Joel Cheesman (00:51.709)
And on this episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, Bill wants to protect humans, Bob wants to feel the full power of the force, and Benny Off is getting his mojo back. Let's do this.
Joel Cheesman (01:08.145)
Nap culture, what's that about? Nap culture.
Chad Sowash (01:08.743)
yes. Yes, yes, and yes. Well, Matt Adam once told me that he took like an eighteen minute nap every day. Every day, no matter what. It was standard nap, rejuvenated him. And I always thought, dude, that's eighteen minutes I could fucking be doing something, right? I mean, just I can I can't do it. How mu how long does it take me to get to sleep and blah, on so now, now being Euro Chad.
Joel Cheesman (01:24.712)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:35.239)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (01:38.681)
Much more relaxed. get up in the morning, play some paddle, have a little brunch, and then like around 1 30 or something like that, I'll take maybe, you know, 20, 20 minute, 30 minute nap. yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta say, Matt Adam, you put that you put that seed in my brain, not to mention Joel. I'm always talking about you and your naps. yeah, no, it's it's lovely. It is lovely.
Joel Cheesman (01:38.769)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (01:51.047)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:58.385)
Yeah, of course, of course.
Joel Cheesman (02:02.92)
Yeah, I'm a I'm a twenty two minute man. that that eighteen that twenty minute ish thing tends to be the best. Now Matt Adam, that don't and anyone that doesn't know, longtime friend of the show. It works at NAS. same age age group, I I I dare say. So the the challenge is doing the twenty minute commitment.
Chad Sowash (02:15.513)
Yep, love that guy.
Chad Sowash (02:20.219)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (02:26.513)
Like my wife can't do twenty minutes. She's too much in her head. She's too like if she naps, it's like a three hour event. So if you can do the twenty to me, it's to me it's like the old control alt delete. Like just like quick restart, clear the system out, get yourself back. I feel much better after the the twenty two minute twenty two minute nap. But that's good. And the evolution of Chad when we started this thing, n naps were no no bueno.
Chad Sowash (02:36.943)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (02:40.837)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Sowash (02:47.066)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (02:54.523)
That was not a thing that you were open to. So clearly this is the older kinder Euro Chad that's coming out just in time to come back to America.
Chad Sowash (03:03.471)
That yeah, yeah, no shit, right. That that in over a decade with Julie who's been able to really kinda like smooth out the the the rough edges, not entirely.
Joel Cheesman (03:10.777)
Mm-hmm. She's always been pretty chill, right? She's she's chilled you out, hasn't she? Okay, yeah. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (03:17.611)
yes, a lot. A lot. And and she's just like Christine with regard to if w like we'll nap. We nap together. I have to get her up. Like I she'll get another ten more ten minutes than I will, but if I don't get her up, she's gonna be three to five hours. I mean she just she can na hard nap. no.
Joel Cheesman (03:25.682)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (03:29.394)
Yeah.
Yeah, you can't you can't fade into that. Yeah. Once once the brain hits rim and once the brain like goes deep, like it's you're you're done. Yeah, you you you gotta you gotta keep it just just the tip. l little little update on me. I was at a red carpet event this weekend or this week, chat. Yeah. not quite Hollywood, not quite the Chinese man theater, but Louisville, Kentucky. Louisville, Kentucky. yeah, my
Chad Sowash (03:40.702)
dude. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (03:50.213)
Say what What?
Chad Sowash (03:56.322)
Okay.
Very nice. They have red carpets there. Okay. I get it. I thought of just red necks is red carpets. Okay. I love Kentucky. I love Kentucky.
Joel Cheesman (04:02.504)
Yeah, you can buy you can buy you can buy geez. Sorry, Kentucky. I love you. I love you. Don't listen to Chad. Don't listen to Chad. he loves your bourbon too. no, my my niece, in her twenties, has always was always a theater kid, was always good. There's certain things that people do and you watch when they're young, and you go, That's what you need to do with your life. Like that's that's your thing. And she never really pursued it.
Chad Sowash (04:14.063)
Yes, much.
Chad Sowash (04:27.717)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (04:32.483)
and mo most recently she was she still has a day job and one of her friends that used to she used to work with is a director and started a pilot or filmed a pilot of a show. It's called Second Shift. It hasn't been picked up, it's still a pilot. And I was thinking of the pulp fiction scene, where John Travolta's like, I don't have a TV, and Samuel Jack's like, Well, you know, there's an invention called the TV, and on this invention they show shows.
Chad Sowash (04:45.38)
That's cool.
Chad Sowash (04:58.959)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (05:00.615)
And there's a pilot and they sell the pilot. And if the pilot gets picked up, then the more shows are made. So they're in the pilot stage. But my niece is in this pilot and they're pitching it to like HBO, Netflix. If it gets picked up, I'll update everyone on where to watch it and and and do that. So that would be very cool. But they had sort of an official event with red carpet, a photographer, and all that good stuff. So from the just from the camera scenes, it looks like I might be in Hollywood or I might be in somewhere, you know, not.
Chad Sowash (05:11.895)
nice. Fuck yeah. Yes.
Joel Cheesman (05:29.223)
Louisville, Kentucky. and it was a ton of fun. A lot of young people. Everyone that's in the show did it voluntarily. Nobody got paid for it. It's a real bootstrap kind of thing. it's very if you like if you like Kevin Smith humor, if you like clerks and kind of that really conversational humor, kind of like meets the office. So it's a lot of like looking at the camera, sort of off-beat humor conversation. It's very raunchy.
Chad Sowash (05:40.656)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (05:50.533)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (05:58.528)
it was fun. So I did that, did that this week. And then shout out to my my son, my oldest. he turned twenty yesterday or on the first. So he's he's back in Indiana, back at IU, sophomore year. loving life. Love and life. So things are good for me. Things are good for you. Yeah. What
Chad Sowash (06:07.949)
Ooh, good God, how'd that happen?
Jesus.
Chad Sowash (06:20.037)
How could it not? Did you did you wear your derby tucks to the red the red the red carpet event?
Joel Cheesman (06:25.82)
Yeah.
Come on. Come on. You know I did. You know I did. You know I did. I didn't I didn't wear the bow tie though. I kept I kept it white t-shirt with the the crystal the sparkling white Air Force ones. So I kept it hip, but not like too hip, because I don't want to be that old guy that overdoes it. So I thought the sneakers and the t shirt.
Chad Sowash (06:41.872)
It's
Chad Sowash (06:47.803)
So so what you're saying is you're saying you're you're bringing dumb and dumber to twenty twenty six. This way okay. No, I got it. No, it's good.
Joel Cheesman (06:53.043)
I'm going I'm going full dumb in twenty twenty six for sure. Yeah. Full, full dumb, full dumb. And speaking speaking of full dumb, let's go to shout out, shall we?
Chad Sowash (07:00.656)
I love it.
Yes. Okay.
Joel Cheesman (07:06.269)
Guys, our shout outs are sponsored by yeah, you guessed it, Bourbon.
Joel Cheesman (07:13.299)
That's right. And if you love bourbon, give give thanks and praise. Proven Base, our sponsor that helps make free bourbon doable. I just sent out two bottles, Chad. Bottle from you, bottle from me. some lucky winner gets that every month. But you can't win it unless you play. You got to go to Chadcheese.com slash free to get that lovely, lovely, lovely l liquor.
Chad Sowash (07:25.375)
yeah.
Chad Sowash (07:35.714)
huh.
Joel Cheesman (07:36.519)
That comes from Kentucky, and our friends from Poov and Base. Big thank you to them for making miracles happen. Chad, what you got?
Chad Sowash (07:46.086)
Well, I've got a history lesson for my shout out. So let's go ahead. Let's let's let's get ready. Let no it's not. So Joel bef before before the smartphone, were you a big map guy? I mean, did you enjoy using maps to navigate around big cities?
Joel Cheesman (07:49.019)
stop, it's too early for a history lesson. All right, fine.
Joel Cheesman (08:04.064)
maps the fold out maps, the yeah, it sucked. Awful. It's a great it's a great skill to have when someone pulls the plug on the the grid. G Gen X is gonna be the only only a generation to survive, but
Chad Sowash (08:06.031)
Yeah, yeah.
it is. dude. dude. I I dude, I'm telling you. So after being dropped into the jungles of Panama and the swamps of Fort Polk, Louisiana, and the military, I I hello. I I began to love using maps, right? Not just to find my way through, you know, said jungles and swamp, but you know, definitely everyday travel. But back in the day, you had so many maps. You had the US map.
You had different state maps. And then when you got into larger cities, you had to get the city map. So if you did any travel whatsoever, you had a collection of big ass maps that you had to unfold, probably stored in your glove box. That's what we used to use the glove box for kids. you had to find your place. Where were you at on the map? You had to find out where you were on the map. You had to find the destination. You had to pick the route you wanted to take.
Joel Cheesman (08:55.379)
Yeah. Yep.
Chad Sowash (09:08.921)
You had to know where north was. You had to orientate the map. And then you had to read the map while driving, right? So did you remember the first time the magic of MapQuest met met your life? Do you remember that?
Joel Cheesman (09:14.035)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (09:25.213)
Sure, it was one of the many miracles of the internet. that was the next thing. Like maps. Okay. I I put in where I'm going and it tells me when to turn and like how basically roughly how much time. No, it was it was amazing. Yeah. It was great.
Chad Sowash (09:27.451)
It was. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I it so late nineteen nineties, my first time. I I I printed out, I remember printing out and stapling about ten pages of directions together instead of unfolding that huge map of, let's say, for instance, like Indianapolis. It was amazing because, like you said, all the directions were laid out, and then it came the smartphone, and unfortunately, MapQuest didn't assimilate quick enough. And Google Maps literally just became the default. So Matt
Joel Cheesman (09:52.317)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (10:01.511)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (10:06.023)
The Gar remember the Garmin? The Garmin? Yeah, people had Garmin's in their car. Yeah, that was before yeah. The Garmin.
Chad Sowash (10:06.619)
yes, yes. That's right. So so MapQuest died. wait a wait a minute. Wait a minute. Excuse me. This just in MapQuest is now the top download. What what what mapquest what the hell happened? MapQuest MapQuest refused to rename Lake Ontario to Lake America.
Joel Cheesman (10:22.097)
What? The top download? Don't these people have Minecraft? What?
Joel Cheesman (10:33.063)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (10:34.841)
Which sent MapQuest's iOS app to the number four position in the US. Yes, it reached number eight overall in the US. Over the app store with games, everything. and obviously in navigation it was number one. And in Canada, go figure. it it it was overall number two. So I want to shout out to MapQuest allowing us to have a nostalgic moment, a history lesson.
Joel Cheesman (10:39.397)
Is that right?
Joel Cheesman (10:51.24)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (11:02.553)
Due to rebellion over sheer, sheer stupidity. Thanks, MapQuest. Thank you.
Joel Cheesman (11:02.642)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (11:10.813)
So triple A, which you probably had growing up. I I can remember when we take a a vacation in the summer, my parents would like let Triple A know where we're going, what like where we're all the all the stops, and we would get a packet from Triple A of directions of where to go. We'd have coupons for, you know, the Motel Six or whatever it was. Like we would get this travel pack.
Chad Sowash (11:13.628)
yes. yeah.
Joel Cheesman (11:39.015)
Which also a little bit of history lesson in there. But yeah, maps maps and travel has been a long time challenge for human beings. And I don't think young people know know the pain of maps and going places that you didn't know where you were going.
Chad Sowash (11:40.719)
Ooh, that sounds like fun. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (11:48.859)
no, no.
Well and then reading that map, you had to be careful. You had to be careful.
Joel Cheesman (11:57.854)
Sure. the worst was like, shit, there's a there's an accident. Get the map out. We got to find an alternate route. And good luck with that. I mean, how many and then the gas station pulled over, right? And your dad never wanted to do it. And your mom is like, pull over and ask the gas station where such and such is. And I'm pretty sure people mess with you. People on the side of you like, we're gonna mess with these people. Like, yeah, you go down.
Chad Sowash (12:03.27)
Yes. Now you have to reroute.
Yep. Yep.
Chad Sowash (12:13.253)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (12:18.693)
Yeah. Yeah. Where's it at? Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (12:26.279)
Ten miles up and then over and then yeah.
Chad Sowash (12:29.051)
And then you come back five miles, then you take a right. And well, I just could have taken a left at the five anyway, anyway. Yeah. Good times. Good times. Good times.
Joel Cheesman (12:34.791)
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good that's a good shout out. I like a good I like a good history lesson. I like a good history.
I might have too. All right, sh Chad, my my shout out, I don't think I don't think Snoop has ever been on the show. Has he? I was trying to think. Have we ever had a Snoop shout out?
Chad Sowash (12:48.281)
He I I I don't know. I we've had over sixteen hundred episodes. I'm sure he was somewhere somewhere. Yes, somewhere.
Joel Cheesman (12:53.895)
For such a cultural icon for Snoop, not to be on it, surprise. So Snoop, Snoop is in the in the news for doing something in our space, which is is worth a shout out. So Deal Deal and Rippling, as we've been talking about for a while, and we'll get to HiBob in a second. they're they're in the news too. is is from my perspective, full court press on the promotion. They've they've signed a deal with Arsenal.
Chad Sowash (13:04.379)
What? I like it. Weed jobs.
Uh-huh. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (13:22.941)
the football, the English premier football team, they're on their jerseys now. Actually stopped at the Edinburgh mall when I was going down to Louisville and they have the new Arsenal with the deal logo on the on the sleeve. So so they're so which tells me like the IPO must be coming. If they're doing like the full court on the promotion it must be coming. And they've they've employed Snoop
Chad Sowash (13:24.507)
Yep. Yep.
Chad Sowash (13:31.097)
Outlet mall, yeah. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (13:37.147)
So bad.
Joel Cheesman (13:48.264)
To partner up and and have a new promotion. So without further ado, I'm just gonna play you the ad that Snoop does. It's for his ice cream company called Dr. Bombay. So he'll mention that. Never had Dr. Bombay ice cream. I don't know if it's laced with reefer or what, because it's Snoop. But but yeah, here here we go, Snoop pimp and deal.
Chad Sowash (13:53.755)
Let's do it.
Chad Sowash (13:59.728)
Okay. No? I I would dig it, yeah.
Chad Sowash (14:16.826)
WHAAA?
Joel Cheesman (14:39.197)
Ha ha ha.
Joel Cheesman (15:06.577)
And yes, I've applied, Chad. I've applied to be the ice cream tester for for Snoop. Do you think that's his real do you think that's his real dad?
Chad Sowash (15:09.989)
All right. I'm I'm going now.
I I I don't know. I don't know. I probably yeah, yeah yeah.
Joel Cheesman (15:15.667)
'Cause he looks great if it is. Like Snoop is our age, so his dad's I mean, seventy something the minimal. Like he looks great if that is his dad, which it could be.
Chad Sowash (15:24.087)
Yeah. I I yeah, I doubt it. It was a commercial, but hey, if it was awesome, if it wasn't awesome, either way. Hmm.
Joel Cheesman (15:30.791)
The the question will be, will Snoop be at the NYSE when they ring the bell or the Nasdaq? 'Cause I wanna see Snoop I wanna see Snoop on Wall Street, if I if I
Chad Sowash (15:36.429)
you know he will. You know he will. Yeah. And and I mean weed is legal in in New York, so it'll probably be smoking while he's while he's doing it. He he should be at least.
Joel Cheesman (15:49.927)
Sounds sounds like an event that maybe we should go to, Chad. I don't know.
Chad Sowash (15:52.387)
Well, just for so you kids know, travel is sponsored by Shaker Recruitment Marketing. That's right. if you are looking to try to fuse AI into your stack and you have no clue what to what you're looking for, what you need, any of that stuff, just go to your friends at shaker.com. They've been in business for 75 years. That's right. This year, their 75th year in existence. Celebrating. So go go check them out. Joel, we are going to Wreckfest in Nashville, happening September 20th.
23rd and 24th on the disrupt stage. We're gonna be doing that. the girls, Mo and JT, are going to be on the innovate stage. So we're gonna have Chad and Cheese all over the place. Chad and cheese all over the place. Now, the the first night of Wreckfest, you can you can join us on the rooftop at the bar of Ole Reds. have a drink with the Chad and Cheese. it's a different venue than the last couple of years. We actually had to upgrade, get a get a bigger
Joel Cheesman (16:36.935)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (16:49.519)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (16:54.485)
venue get a better venue so it's old reds and if you haven't seen information go to linkedin you got you you gotta know a guy for for for for the most part then i'm gonna be heading off to cabo for chris and marin's wedding have a good time there a little fun in the sun then october well wait a minute time out then i've got to go to almost forgot Dallas the very first time we've gone to an SIA event
Joel Cheesman (17:01.075)
All red's nice.
Joel Cheesman (17:06.962)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (17:21.527)
yeah. Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (17:23.899)
Collaboration X at the Omni. And there is a Shark Tank that's happening. And you know, you and I both love a good Shark Tank. Show what's up. Show them what's up.
Joel Cheesman (17:30.151)
Yeah. We love a good shark tank. All right, let's go.
Joel Cheesman (17:55.476)
It's shame if you're not watching this, because if you're just listening, it's a bunch of slides promoting the the conference. Just take our word for it.
Chad Sowash (17:58.213)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (18:02.414)
It's hype, baby. Nothing but hype. Nothing but hype. I love it. Ooh. Pedagogue, Atlas, first work. Insigna. Tenzo. Ooh, look, it's Brian.
Joel Cheesman (18:07.855)
Atlas, first work. These are the companies in the in the competition. Insigna. Tenzo. Tenznow.
Chad Sowash (18:22.073)
Happening on September thirtieth, kids. That's right.
Chad Sowash (18:28.219)
Go to collaborationx dot com. You like that? I I came up with that. I came up with that. Yeah, that's nice. Huh?
Joel Cheesman (18:28.221)
Join the AI feeding frenzy. That's nice. That's nice. That's a little fun fact. The Tenzo founder lives lives up the street from me. He went he went to HSC, which is the high school. I think he was valedictorian. he graduated in like 18 or 17, went to Stanford and obviously made good. Not that I'm pimping them or that I'm promoting them, but like a little fun fact if you meet the founder, let him know like, Fisher's.
Chad Sowash (18:40.099)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (18:46.533)
Very nice. Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (18:54.936)
that is a fun fact.
Joel Cheesman (18:57.917)
Fisher's Indiana, right? You know Cheese you know Cheesman. You live right up the street, right? Yeah. Yeah. His his dad and I are having Shake Shack later today for lunch. It's all it's all good. It's all good. I don't I don't know though if he signed up for fantasy football.
Chad Sowash (18:57.997)
I'm sure he'll be pitching. Yeah, I'm sure he'll Huh. I'm sure he'll be pitching. Yeah. You know Cheesman. loser, you're done.
Chad Sowash (19:13.445)
Shit. Yeah.
well come on now.
Joel Cheesman (19:21.191)
That's right. We're we're picking the teams as we speak this week. We're gonna formalize the final folks that are in the competition. So next week we'll have who's in. We'll do the draft I think Sunday. I forget what day the draft is, but we should have draft grades very soon. And the games are starting, Chad. I'm pretty excited. college starts this weekend. the mighty Ball State Cardinals take on the Ohio State Buckeyes.
Chad Sowash (19:27.195)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (19:50.888)
The number one ranked Ohio State Buckeyes. I think I told you the the Ball State quarterback is 511 250. I mean, the d the dude's gonna look like Earl Campbell playing quarterback. I I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. It's a game that you normally not watch, but if you're out there, like check it out. Five eleven, two fifty quarterback could be worth could be worth watching. Could be worth watching. I don't know. It is it is a little a little bit crazy.
Chad Sowash (19:55.952)
Yes.
Chad Sowash (20:05.019)
That's fucking awesome.
Chad Sowash (20:12.963)
That's fucking crazy. Five eleven two fifty. Jesus. Wow. Wow. Here we go.
Joel Cheesman (20:19.995)
Almost as crazy as the topics we're about to cover today.
Joel Cheesman (20:26.937)
All right, let's talk about money. Salesforce has led a $166 million investment in HR platform. Hi, Bob, increasing its valuation to $3.2 billion. The strategic partnership aims to utilize workforce data for enterprise AI agents, prompting Hi Bob to defer its initial public offering until at least 2027. Chad.
Chad Sowash (20:42.277)
Hello.
Joel Cheesman (20:55.783)
The money is flowin' again, your take.
Chad Sowash (21:03.065)
This is about this is this is sexy money right here, right? And not to mention they've they they have 700 million in total funding. Okay. I think the market loves that HiBob because they're catering to businesses of all sizes. But that's kind of like where I see the problem trying to attack a total addressable market that wide globally is a pretty big effort. So they're gonna need some cash. Plus, like smart recruiters.
Joel Cheesman (21:24.999)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (21:30.703)
Who went with the all or none movement to agentic for an ATS? Hi Bob is bigger. They're an HCM. which again we talked about. They they're not they're not just a bigger platform. They are looking at a bigger TAM. So they're gonna be a lot, they're gonna need a lot more money. It's a bigger platform. the vision, the cash, they need it all. it's it's interesting that Salesforce, go figure.
Joel Cheesman (21:36.915)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Chad Sowash (21:58.38)
was was one of the companies that doubled down on these guys. I think that's smart. I think the we'll talk about it later in the show. I think the SAS pocalypse is bullshit. And I think this is just Salesforce saying, look, this is how the market is going to evolve and we're going to put the money behind HiBob. So yeah, I think I think it's a good way to head your bets.
Joel Cheesman (22:01.331)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Joel Cheesman (22:24.689)
Yeah, I I'm in agreement. we talked a couple of weeks ago about private equity coming for workday. and I think this sort of reflects the timing is right. private equity coming into workday, we'll talk about their earnings a little bit, but Salesforce coming in and partnering and and investing in HiBob makes a lot more sense to me than private equity just coming in and ripping out the the guts. So timing is right because I do think
Valuations on these SaaS companies are still low. where they will come back or bounce back, we don't know. But Salesforce smartly came and said, look, the price is right for these companies. They may have approached Deal, they may have approached Rippling and some others. My guess is the price was probably a little bit less amenable than a HiBob. it's kind of like back in the day where you could, you know, you could invest in Lyft or Uber.
Uber was way too expensive, so I'll invest in the Pepsi. HiBob might end up being the the Dr. Pepper of this whole thing, but it's probably a really good sound bet. And I think that it makes much more sense. Second piece of this is that it fits in so well with Salesforce and their AI aspirations. We've all seen the Matthew McConaughey, you know, commercials, the chat and the the you know, the AI that's coming and the agent force and all that. So
You know, HR used to be used to basically be a f org chart. It used to be sort of a maintenance thing. And because of AI, it becomes an intricate part of the entire thing. Because if you know who reports to who, what someone's paid, what their job duties actually are, then the agents in a company become way more influential because you're
you have much more data in terms of what that agent is doing within a company. So for me, like Salesforce and their agent force and what's going on there, this is a perfect fit for that. I suspect the HiBob brand will eventually be Salesforce and there'll be Salesforce, HCM, workforce, something, and it'll all fit into agent force. So I I I think this is part of a bigger picture for Salesforce. And I think it's a great opportunity for HiBob to get some extra funding.
Joel Cheesman (24:44.519)
The IPO thing is interesting. they obviously basically said, like, hey, we're gonna put this off till 2027, whereas workday you have a already public company looking to go private. So we have a little crossing of the streams there. But HiBob just became a must-watch in our space going forward. And you and I will continue to watch what they're doing and what Salesforce is doing with it.
Chad Sowash (25:06.917)
Yeah, I think PE is you're talking about the money is gonna burst the fucking dam. There are so many the the economy has been shit, which has kept companies from spending money, right? this is kind of like a leak leakage of the dam. not even from PE yet. So there's gonna be as soon as we can turn the corner and we can stop all this bullshit that's that's literally just st suffocating the economy.
Joel Cheesman (25:12.743)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (25:35.954)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (25:36.432)
There's gonna be money that's flowing. There's gonna be tons of money that's flowing. Now, on the other side of the house, talking about building agents versus buying agents, we were talking to a professor a couple of weeks ago where he really is focused on the the building of the agents. And I don't think that motherfucker understands our industry. We're not gonna build that stuff, right? We've done it before. We've we've built applicant tracking systems before. We tried to maintain that. We're like, nope shut that down, let's buy something, right?
Joel Cheesman (25:55.016)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (26:05.337)
We want experts in our space to be able to do that shit, right? Not not just the building, but also the maintenance, not to mention building new features. So I think I think from our standpoint, that is the smartest thing. And as I talked about with with smart recruiters, you take a look at one of the biggest companies, I mean, just from a business standpoint, SAP, buying smart recruiters, they see that as, I mean, a very integral part.
Joel Cheesman (26:14.141)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (26:27.335)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (26:33.611)
Agents, not just smart recruiters, but agents, building agents all the way through your business model, I think is amazing. And if they can take a look at like again, bigger companies like the work days of the world, looking at Paradox, Salesforce, perspectively looking at HiBob. If you can get that agent company to come in and start building agents throughout that actual business stack, that's fucking money, baby. And that that I think is the business of the future.
Joel Cheesman (26:49.404)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (27:02.053)
Yeah. I I think it's a really pivotal day for our space because thanks to AI and agents, the data that we have in our systems becomes essential infrastructure as opposed to like just an administrative software. This becomes a real strategic step for companies to start understanding and utilizing their talent in a way that they never have before. So I I think this move is really exciting. I I'm I'm working with a a
a startup sort of in the in the opening phases and the conversations of integrating with greenhouse and i sims or whoever, those conversations are evolving into okay, how do we integrate with Zoom and Salesforce and like these bigger platforms? And that's a very exciting evolution in my opinion, in our space. So this is something to to keep an eye on for sure.
Chad Sowash (27:35.28)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (27:46.213)
Yeah, yes, yes.
Chad Sowash (27:55.886)
Agreed. Agreed.
Joel Cheesman (27:59.388)
All right, speaking of high tech, Microsoft founder Bill Gates warns that artificial intelligence will severely disrupt the workforce within a decade. Stop me if you've heard this one before, placing young and blue collar workers at the highest risk of displacement. Bill Gates urges governments to implement protective measures, protecting what he calls, quote, human reserved, end quote, occupations.
Chad Sowash (28:00.219)
Please don't.
Joel Cheesman (28:25.883)
Saying we should tax AI computing and robots to fund retraining programs and prepare for the human race, prepare the human race for universal basic income. Chad, put down your flippy and let us know what you think about Bill's words of warning.
Chad Sowash (28:42.469)
Well, personally I don't think the timing of this is good. go go ahead and play that video that I that that I sent you.
Joel Cheesman (28:48.957)
You got it.
Chad Sowash (29:23.653)
So again, personally, I don't think the timing's good. Yeah, good.
Joel Cheesman (29:25.971)
Can I jump in real quick? I know some of our if you're if you're listening to the show, this the spike that happened in COVID in terms of employee pay, it went straight back down. Isn't that a shame? Like we had talked so much about like, Hey, we're back, baby, and then nope, went straight back down. Anyway, I just wanted to wanted to highlight that 'cause I thought it was interesting. And if you didn't see it on the audio version. Go ahead.
Chad Sowash (29:34.477)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Chad Sowash (29:47.706)
Yeah, I I I I I think so we're we're we're feeling the impacts of wage equality or inequality, more than ever. I mean, it's happening more than ever, which is compounded by inflation, tariffs, an economy that's paying its CEO four hundred times more than the person that's actually doing the hard work. What do we need? Well, I I don't believe the answer is the wild, wild west for AI.
Joel Cheesman (29:56.273)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (30:11.453)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (30:17.263)
Right. That that the the the approach of the wild, wild west, I don't think that's it. Unfortunately, we don't have the right leaders in place to navigate this this situation. I think that's what what what Bill's saying. And over the past two to three years, we've heard about AI taking jobs, but we've seen little real examples of that actually happen. And we've seen tasks, small subsets of jobs, automated, and we've heard CEOs boast.
That they're replacing humans with AI just to hear that they're actually offshore the jobs or they're they're bringing employees back. We're inundated with stories and surveys that scare us or make us happy, right? So I think it's important at this point to start by separating the wheat from the chaff. And because today there are so many voices that are out there.
Joel Cheesman (30:52.264)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (31:10.023)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (31:10.939)
instead of listening to them all, I think we really have to provide weight and priority to some of them. And Bill Gates, unlike most of the other billionaires and AI figureheads that are out there, I believe Bill Gates has been around. He understands and his experience is in more than just tech and that he he better understands the problems of humanity as a whole. So more importantly, as evidence of this open letter that he wrote,
Joel Cheesman (31:26.291)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (31:39.308)
he understands that humanity equipped with AI is a big problem for humanity without proper leadership. So I I believe we give way too much credit to most of the AI voices that are out there, as I said before, because they don't even understand some of the answers that they're putting out there and they're just making shit up. Or they have a vested interest in how they are creating a certain narrative. And for example, I remember Musk.
Joel Cheesman (31:46.995)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (32:07.447)
asking for a six-month AI pause, was that because he was afraid of AI progressing so fast? Or maybe he just wanted the other models to slow down while his, you know, piece of shit Nazi porn bar porn bar bar bot, sorry, caught up. Yeah. It's it's a piece of shit, dude. Anyway, those those all come down to leadership. And at this point, I believe we
Joel Cheesman (32:10.055)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (32:14.301)
Yeah. Catch up, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (32:24.563)
Are you talking about Grok? Are you are you disparaging Grok? Okay. Just wanna make sure. It's not.
Joel Cheesman (32:34.077)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (32:37.273)
Unfortunately, we're all looking to Europe for leadership because in the US we've pretty much stated this is gonna be the wild, wild west.
Chad Sowash (32:49.029)
Just a little, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (32:51.155)
So the the Bill Gates manifesto and how how s how crazy he would come out with this when the the Gates and Epstein Island conversation just became something that people are doing. Nice little pivot shift of attention. But anyway, he he writes this manifesto manifesto, I guess I would call it, and it comes off to me as very just very anti human, and also more and more familiar to your point.
In 2014, 2014, Elon Musk said, and I quote, with artificial intelligence, we are summoning the demon, end quote. So this sort of apocalyptic AI is going to kill us all, take all the jobs, is over a decade old. It's to me, it's starting to lose its, it's, you know, it's it's what?
Should I call it? It's its emphasis, it's it's threatening tone. look, radiologists were going to be out of a job five years, you know, like all these positions that are gone. customer service, we had a we recently talked about that. Like people are off, are offshoring, all of their, yeah, Klarna not replacing everybody. Like these stories of, maybe not so much are becoming much more prevalent. And now we're talking about data centers.
Chad Sowash (33:48.261)
Teeth.
Teeth, yeah.
Chad Sowash (34:02.16)
Yep. Klarna.
Joel Cheesman (34:15.671)
And people don't want data centers in their communities. And Trump is coming out with true socials about like let data rain. And if you don't have data centers, you're going to be poor and hungry and way behind, you know, humanity. And we got to keep up with China. And China's going to kick our ass if we don't do so like this narrative to me is becoming numbing. And the message of humans are going to be okay, I think is one that we can all start to embrace.
And I certainly am. I think that the hu humans' ability to adapt, humans' ability to take things, n every every every time in history where technology has improved and industrial revolutions have happened, more jobs have been created, more prosperity has been has been, you know, created as a as a part of that. I have no reason right now to think that AI is going to be any different.
There will be more jobs, more opportunities. We talk about more businesses being created ever the than ever before. I understand part of that is there there's not as many jobs, but there are gonna be companies that are born out of the tech layoffs and and other things that happen that are gonna create more jobs. So I I I'm more optimistic about sort of humankind than I have been a long time. I don't think AI is going to kill us all. It could, I don't know, but I mean you might as well cite on on optimism.
Chad Sowash (35:21.795)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (35:38.265)
in this world than pessimism and adapt accordingly. That's how humans have survived the past and it's how I think we'll survive in the future.
Chad Sowash (35:46.692)
Well, I think we've all also rebelled. And I think that's where we're about to go. Because again, we talked wage inequity more than ever. I mean, look at the video compounded by inflation, terror. I mean, again, the economy itself. So, yes, if we change the direction in which we are moving, and the direction we've been moving is to push more people lower, lower, lower into poverty and give a bunch of people I'm not a bunch of people.
Joel Cheesman (35:54.695)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (36:01.107)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (36:12.359)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (36:15.597)
A few people, most of the cash. I think if we start to give the individuals the wages they deserve for doing the hard fucking work. Yes, you had great vision. I appreciate that. You're at the top of that, you're at the top of the pyramid. You had great vision, but you didn't build that fucking shit. Okay. Somebody else did it, and they're doing it day by day by day. They're doing the hard work to actually push the profits to you. Profits are at record highs, wages are at record lows. This
Joel Cheesman (36:24.36)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (36:45.517)
This to me, I I I appreciate the optimism, but unless we actually start paying our people, there there's gonna be a problem. There's gonna be a huge problem, pitchfork types of problems.
Joel Cheesman (36:58.351)
And we're seeing it, at least I I know you've been out of outside of America for a while, but I know you keep track of, you know, the democratic socialists and like the kids are mad. The kids are pissed off. And part of that is we're not getting paid. The jobs aren't there. I mean, there's there's gonna be a political sort of reckoning in all of this. And when you when you hear talk about UBI, I think that's just bread and circuses. I think it's like if we pay people
Chad Sowash (37:06.019)
Mm. yeah. And they should be.
Chad Sowash (37:25.251)
It is. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (37:26.339)
if we are if we write a check, we can keep the party going, we can keep the data center going and and and pacify the the masses. That seems to be the strategy that they're that they're embracing. May you live in interesting times, Chad. May you live in interesting times.
Chad Sowash (37:42.319)
I want boring. Give me boring. I keep saying that. I want boring. I want happy people and boring.
Joel Cheesman (37:52.564)
All right, Chad, let's take a quick break. Guys, if you haven't subscribed to us, if you haven't shared us with your your industry friends, if you haven't left us a review, please do all of that and listen to the ads because there's no show if we don't have sponsors.
Joel Cheesman (38:12.499)
All right, Chad, this next segment is brought to you by free t shirts. I'm wearing one right now, the most recent iteration of the Chad and Cheese t shirt. and if you could see the back, you would see that it's sponsored by our friends at Aaron App. That's E-R-I-N. Better referrals through Aaron App. But you can't get it, Chad, unless you go to Chadcheese.com slash free. I've got a I've got a child labor camp going on in my basement. We're packing up t shirts.
Chad Sowash (38:17.593)
you are. It's sexy.
Chad Sowash (38:36.548)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (38:41.223)
We're sending them out to to the good listeners of the Chad and Cheese show. But you can't get it unless you go to ChadCheese.com slash free today. All right, Chad, the SAS the SAS pocalypse may be on hold. Two software giants delivered strong earnings beats last week. Salesforce posted Q two revenue of eleven point thirty five billion dollars. That's up eleven percent, and raised full year guidance, heavily boosted by investment gains from Anthropic. Meanwhile
Chad Sowash (38:41.658)
Chad Sowash (38:51.301)
Go get it.
Joel Cheesman (39:11.013)
Workday beat expectations with $2.65 billion in revenue driven by a 14% surge in subscription growth and rapid AI agent adoption. Hello, Paradox. Chad, is SAS so back? Or is this a temporary head fake?
Chad Sowash (39:29.103)
Yeah, I'm gonna focus on Workday because it's more our space. For the full the full yeah, I do. Yeah. for the full fiscal year, Workday expects subscription revenues of between 9.94 billion and nine point nine five billion. So that's a lot of money. broadly matching analysts' estimates. And AI accounted for more than 25% of new.
Joel Cheesman (39:32.947)
Do you?
Joel Cheesman (39:47.795)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (39:56.728)
Annual contract value during the quarter. Okay, so Workday has over 11,000 companies using their platform. That's a portfolio of companies that are hungry to use AI. They are hungry to find ways to extract ROI out of AI. They are hungry to take these AI usage and ROI stories to their board. And they can do
Just that with a company like Workday exposing themselves to little risk, right? Workday is a steady business, it's a big business, it's a profitable business. And to all you SaaSpocalypse chicken littles out there, I told you motherfuckers that the SAS pocalypse was bullshit. I told you that companies like Salesforce and Workday would integrate AI into their system and change their models if.
Joel Cheesman (40:47.303)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (40:50.215)
And when it's necessary. The most important thing to remember is that that companies, as you said earlier, Joel, have the gold. So workday and Salesforce have the gold of data inside their inside their system. Yes, please. I'll have another Guinness. data, mountains of motherfucking data. That's that's the gold, right? And that's what is needed to make these models home.
Joel Cheesman (40:57.981)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (41:19.053)
So to me, the market has become a whiny little baby that you can excite with a wonderful fairy tale instead of solid numbers. Workday and Salesforce are solid companies who will make big model changes slowly and only when the customers are ready. The market is just it's it's fucking bullshit, dude. It's driving me crazy. It's driving me fucking crazy. It used to be something we could look at and it made sense.
You looked at you looked at at the expectations meeting expectations. Workday met expectations and one of the analysts even dropped it was like, what the fuck is this? This makes no sense. Anyway, sorry, I'm ranting.
Joel Cheesman (41:59.761)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (42:05.236)
So there were so two there were two primary narratives in in the threats to to software. The first one was, you know what, let's get our let's get our webmaster to vibe code us a CRM. Let's get Johnny you know intern to vibe code us an ATS. Like that was sort of the narrative that was always silly. Like these these enterprise huge ass companies
Chad Sowash (42:31.589)
Yes. Yes.
Joel Cheesman (42:35.109)
Are not gonna get you know, Sally Webmaster to like vibe code some some tech, right? Like that just was not very realistic. And I think we're seeing that play out now. the second, the second narrative was, well, if your pricing is on a per seat basis and companies are laying off and agents are doing work, like how does the how does the model work in this new reality?
And well, shocker, they're all changing their pricing models from a per seat to like a consumption or how many tokens are you using, right? So like so it wasn't a real it wasn't a real tough narrative to say like, well, we'll just change how we charge for the product. We're not like bound to this seat, you know, the seat pricing model. So I think we've all I think we've both thought like it was ridiculous to think that these software companies were gonna go
Chad Sowash (43:12.507)
Aspects of it, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (43:32.711)
by the wayside. And I think, in fact, with the Salesforce HiBob, you can argue that these companies will be more important than ever before because hello, they have data and they can start aggregating data across multiple companies. And that's only a scale that a Salesforce or workday can provide. So I think all those narratives were ridiculous. I think that probably there was some algorithmic trading that said, okay, these companies have lost 15%. So let's let's keep the selling going with.
Chad Sowash (43:41.754)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (44:02.28)
with the bots and it just cascaded. And I think that we're learning that it's a it's a false narrative. And we don't give financial advice on this show, but take a look at the software companies. Like they're kind of bouncing back and they'll probably keep doing so in the near future. Yeah. There's no reason to think that they are that they are done by any any standards. Yeah. Do not yeah, do not do not fall for it, people.
Chad Sowash (44:17.935)
They're solid. They're fucking solid.
Chad Sowash (44:24.471)
solid solid as a rock
Joel Cheesman (44:33.295)
All right, Chad, this one's for you. The U.S. Department of Labor has finalized three rules dismantling longstanding affirmative action requirements for federal contractors. These updates officially rescind race and sex based mandates, eliminate the seven percent workforce hiring goal for individuals with disabilities, and update veteran contract thresholds. Though general anti-discrimination laws remain intact.
This one's yours, Chad. Get it.
Chad Sowash (45:05.603)
All right. yeah, this one's near and dear to my heart. and also Julie's. I mean, because we've worked on veteran hiring programs, individuals with disabilities, programs, and we've seen the outcomes. We've seen the the impact on these on these individuals, on these communities, right? the Trump administration is quietly tearing down the OFCCP, otherwise known as the Office of Federal Compliance Contract Programs.
Joel Cheesman (45:14.621)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (45:34.639)
Now, to quote the suit and tie lawyers over at Ogletree Deacons, quote, President Trump's proposed fiscal year 2027 budget would defund OFCCP as he proposed for the fiscal year 2026 budget and move the agency's more limited statutory functions as to individuals with disabilities and protective veterans.
to an expanded office of civil rights. End quotes. Okay, so what that means is
The OFCCP is used to force corporations to actually play fair instead of just taking your hard earned tax dollars. For example, if a defense contractor wants a fat government check funded by you, the working people, the taxpayer, they aren't supposed to just hire Uncle Bob's golf buddies and call it a fucking day. They're required to hold higher standards for hiring.
Public money should serve the public. So moving on. Why should defund the OFCCP make your blood fucking boil? Because the OFCCP is the watchdog stopping these corporate parasites from feeding off our tax dollars while discriminating discriminating whenever they want. Now let's look at the absolute comedy of where they plan to dump the scraps of the OFCCP.
They want to move the limited functions regarding disabled folk and veterans to an expanded Office of Civil Rights. Sounds cozy. Sounds like, yeah, civil rights, that's nice. Until you look at the map of where they're going to put them, it's not even under the DOL, the Department of Labor anymore. No, they're shuffling it over to the health and human services. You know, HHS, the department currently run by Robert.
Joel Cheesman (47:17.511)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (47:33.072)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (47:35.942)
corkscrew, raccoon, penis, Kennedy Jr. the guys making measles great again, right? That is where they want to bury workforce protections for individuals with disabilities and former military service members like myself in the darkest, most unhinged corners of federal government. This isn't agency reorganization. It's it's a fucking barrier.
Joel Cheesman (47:49.277)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (48:05.251)
And the Trump administration is giving a massive fuck you to veterans and people with disabilities who just want a fair shot at working, living their lives, and being a part of something, a part of society, which is what we all want to crack at and what these agencies allowed, especially since these corporations are taking our hard earned tax dollars. We should be treated fairly overall. And now that's all going away.
Joel Cheesman (48:05.321)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (48:41.531)
I I I cannot put it any better than that, but I do want to add a history lesson. Cause there's no way that you're the only one getting a history lesson in on this one. So back in 2023, the Supreme Court struck down race conscious admissions in colleges. You might remember the case, interesting, brought brought about by Asians because they felt they were being discriminated against and not getting into colleges. And at the
Chad Sowash (49:05.445)
Yep. Jesus. Yeah. in California, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (49:10.959)
At the time, I opined that it would lead to fewer fewer diversity in the applications process, not just the acceptance process. So the argument wasn't, colleges are going to discriminate. I don't think they necessarily do, but the incentive to take more diverse applicants is gone. What I thought the result would be is
If fewer black kids, Mexican kids, or Hispanic kids, kids of diversity thought, you know what? I I have no shot at getting into an Ivy League school because those those sort of protections for me are gone. Three years later, that's exactly what's happening. in the eighty-five most selective colleges in the country, black app applications are down, Hispanic applications are down.
Chad Sowash (49:57.051)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (50:05.17)
Because these kids don't think they can get in without some little bit of a leg up. So my fear in this is do people with disabilities just not apply? Because they think, well, this is gone. So why would a company hire me? I'm a black woman, I'm not even going to apply because I have no shot. That's ultimately the the damage that these laws you know impose.
Chad Sowash (50:06.403)
Sad. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (50:32.687)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (50:34.873)
imp impact onto our our society. So that's sort of my take on this. I think that the counter argument of like, well, it's not nineteen sixty-seven anymore. Like women are way more advanced than they were back then. Black Americans are way are way further ahead than they they used to be. I think disabilities is the real sad part of this. I think that they are real still really challenged in the workplace. But
I think all of that goes away when you think, Well, if the if the perception is I'm not even gonna get a chance to get this job, I'm not even going to apply, then we've really done society a disservice in my mind.
Chad Sowash (51:15.269)
Well, all those categories you you just talked about, they all get paid less than a white man. So it's not equal, right? And that was under protections. That was when. That is when we had protections, right? So when we don't have protections, and this is the thing, okay? So first and foremost, those individuals, they got a job, which is awesome because that's what we need. We need our communities to to to actually
Joel Cheesman (51:18.557)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (51:25.629)
Protections, yeah.
Chad Sowash (51:40.504)
to to get those jobs so that we can spend money in the communities and drive economic growth. Okay. That's what we need. Now, what happens when they can't get those jobs? Right? That's the thing. We had wage inequity even when we had legislation on the books. Yes. Now we have no protections. So now you know it it's like we've gone, we we've we've come so far since the sixties. Well we really have, but we still weren't equal and we were trying to work toward parity.
Joel Cheesman (51:56.487)
Protections, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (52:10.557)
Uh-huh.
Chad Sowash (52:10.745)
Right. So that the same person doing this or different people doing the same job got paid the same money. Right. We weren't there yet. We weren't even close. And now the protections are taken away. I mean, so what happens? And I think you're right. There are a lot of individuals that literally are just going to throw their hands up, like you'd said before. You want that optimist kind of view. And you had those at least at least the government's looking out for me. At least the government's looking out for me. Now, guess what? That ain't happening.
Joel Cheesman (52:38.44)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (52:39.931)
'Cause they don't give a fuck. And a Department of Labor, you can go fuck yourself.
Joel Cheesman (52:45.029)
Elections have consequences, Chad. interestingly, HBCU applications have gone up. The diff the difference is college applicants feel like there's somewhere that they can go if they can't go to Ivy League schools or elite schools. The difference is the difference is like disabled people don't have an outlet. They don't have like an HBCU.
Chad Sowash (52:47.952)
Let's hope.
Chad Sowash (52:54.528)
I bet. Yeah?
Chad Sowash (53:03.907)
And it feels like segregation again though, right?
Joel Cheesman (53:12.241)
Like where do they go? So I think that's it's just a real shame.
Chad Sowash (53:15.929)
yeah, all the way round. All the way around. God's hope, please.
Joel Cheesman (53:17.179)
Elections have consequences. And so do breaks in the show chat. Let's take a breath. We'll be right back.
Chad Sowash (53:22.725)
Whew!
Joel Cheesman (53:30.663)
Let's lighten things up a little bit, Chad. Let's last month, AI startup LemonLime sparked online backlash after offering fast-tracked job interviews to attendees who got tattoos at an unofficial Y Combinator after party. Critiques called the stunt exploitative. No shit. co-founder and 20-something Jordan Zietz.
Chad Sowash (53:30.915)
All right, cap this off.
Joel Cheesman (53:56.08)
apologized for the poor judgment and off offered to cover full removal costs of the tattoos for those that wanted it. Chad Crazy Pills, what you got?
Chad Sowash (54:11.739)
I don't get it. I I I mean, I I I really don't get it. And and to have a a founder say, Well, you know, I we we really didn't think this through. I mean, th that's that's an understatement. It's a true understatement because you have individuals who really I mean, again, a a lot of individuals are looking for jobs, the the job market's not that great. and to be able to do this just so that you can, you know, I don't know.
Joel Cheesman (54:23.803)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (54:40.175)
Feed your family. That's just total bullshit, man. And it and again, it seems very tech bro-ish. a not thinking about anybody but themselves. it's it's a very musk kind of kind of thing to do. Yeah. Jesus Christ. I yeah. It's just it it it's horrible. As as a guy who now has two tattoos, just you've chatted up. just
Joel Cheesman (54:41.511)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (54:45.757)
Uh-huh.
Joel Cheesman (54:53.349)
Animal spirits, yeah. Lizard brain.
Joel Cheesman (55:02.867)
Yeah, you were tatted up now. Tatted up. The sleeve is coming, don't worry.
Chad Sowash (55:08.891)
yeah, no, I'm gonna work on that. I'm gonna work on that. to to be able to to go through kind of like that whole interview bait and switch kind of thing. Because I I I wonder how many people actually got hired and how many people in the company, because you I mean, you do get into those almost like we work kind of cult, you know. I wonder how many people at the company actually got it. Anyway, it's that's it's weird.
Joel Cheesman (55:25.843)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (55:30.301)
Sure. Sure.
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (55:38.58)
So seven people got a tattoo from this. six of the seven got the logo, I think, the company logo. another person just got kind of an artsy thing, not exactly sure. look, this is a this founder is young, to say the least. I'm sure everyone there was twenty-something. I'm sure drinks were flowing. We've all done stupid shit. so I'm willing I'm willing to give him a little bit of a pass.
on the stupidity and realizing like, okay, that was really dumb. Cause I've been at some conferences where people have done some really dumb shit for money or for companies. So, so I I get it. Hopefully he learns from this and moves forward. It is not, it is not, it is not, nope. it is not uncommon. Do you remember Golden Palace in the mid two like early 2000s? They paid people 10 grand to tattoo their logo on your forehead.
Chad Sowash (56:19.419)
Say more. Say more.
Chad Sowash (56:37.911)
I mean come on.
Joel Cheesman (56:39.355)
And people did it. Like, I know that this is this is this is our space. This is interviewing for a job. And so but I but I don't I don't think this was a this is not a company sanctioned like get a tat get a tattoo and get an interview. I think this was a party with drunk young people doing stupid shit and someone unfortunately the CEO and co-founder said, Hey, let's get tattoos for an automatic interview. and has since has since he has since backed it up.
Chad Sowash (56:41.839)
Ten grand, yeah.
Chad Sowash (57:00.013)
If the CEO says it.
Chad Sowash (57:04.483)
If the CEO co founder says it, it is company sanctioned.
Joel Cheesman (57:08.805)
I do I do think, however, there's a trend worth watching of using jobs to market. In other words, marketing is hard. Getting people to your site, getting people to your brand, embracing it is hard. And I think I think more and more people are finding out that if we post jobs everywhere for free, people will find out about us, people will come to the site, people will like engage with us and and learn who our brand is.
Chad Sowash (57:23.077)
Bay.
Joel Cheesman (57:35.803)
Mr. Beast, interestingly, if you're watching, if you're following Joel Alge on social media, he's calling out Mr. Beast for ghost jobs. apparently there's a job they have for a recruiter. and Joel knows someone at at Mr. Beast. Apparently, like over 30,000 people have applied to this job. Not that Mr. Beast needs it, but that's 30,000 people that now are in the system to be marketed to or to be you know be in the system of the Mr. Beast world.
Chad Sowash (57:35.961)
Hence ghost jobs. Ghost jobs. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (57:45.518)
Joel Cheesman (58:05.639)
I think more more companies are catching on to this and saying, let's just post jobs everywhere and get people in the system. We can market to them. It's like free advertising. So I do think that this is a little bit of a it it just smells of this new, hey, let's use jobs to market. Let's use interviewing or getting into the system from an employment perspective. No, we're not hiring anybody. unless they're unless they're family or child labor. We have no we have no interest.
Chad Sowash (58:24.165)
Are you teeing up a job for the Chat and Cheese podcast? I mean I don't know where's this going? Okay, okay, okay, good. Okay, okay. Unless they're family.
Joel Cheesman (58:35.683)
In hiring you for right now. at some point, however, Chad, we may need someone to help write these dad jokes because every week, every week other all right, this this one's good. This one's awesome. Why why couldn't the chili pepper participate in an archery competition? Why couldn't the chili pepper participate in the archery competition?
Chad Sowash (58:47.983)
That's why you have Grok.
Chad Sowash (59:05.189)
I don't know. This this sounds like a good one.
Joel Cheesman (59:08.305)
He didn't have habanero. He didn't habanero.
Chad Sowash (59:12.743)
that is bad.
Joel Cheesman (59:19.717)
Another Guinness Barkeep. We out.
Chad Sowash (59:21.753)
Yes. We out.
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