ZipRecruiter Trash Talk

ZipRecruiter? More Like Dip-Recruiter

The boys both turn 50-years-old this week, which means a lot of mature, grown-up, and responsible commentary on the world of work.

Ha! Just kidding, they talk trash about the ZipRecruiter IPO,

- Delta mandates the vaccine for new hires

- Amazon buying MGM

- BrightHire raising money

- Jumpstart gets cash and rebrands as Canvas

- The world losing its collective mind over WFH

...and weed in the workplace.

PLUS Chad needs

Whew! Buckle-up, this is one long-winded, meandering piece of industry goodness. As always, your favorite podcast is powered by Jobvite, JobAdx, and Sovren.


Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities.

INTRO (12s):

PHide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (32s):

Oh yeah. You down with AARP? You know me? Hey kids. It's Joel "spiraling toward a permanent dirt nap" Cheeseman.

Chad (44s):

I'm Chad, "it's my birthday and I'll drink if I want to" Sowash.

Joel (48s):

And on this week, show ZipRecruiter more like dip recruiter. Am I right? Well, the real canvas, please stand up and pot James Bond and Chad's favorite Jeff Bezos. Hold tight, we'll be right back with what will probably be our last breath.


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Joel (2m 10s):

Happy birthday, bitch. 50 man. How's that feel? Ah,

Chad (2m 17s):

Feels like 40. Yeah, I'm just, I'm not one for numbers. It's funny because Katrina Collier, she continues to like talk about only so many days until, you know, we're 50 and we were born on the same day and I'm like, would you stop the fucking countdown for God's sakes? She's like, no, no final countdown. Yeah.

Joel (2m 40s):

So for those that don't know you and I were born in the same year, a day apart. So as people are listening to this on Friday, the 28th, that will be my birthday. We're recording this on the 27th, which is your birthday. So happy birthday to both of us. This is the birthday show, I guess and remember you're sandwiching in a celebration. You were in Costa Rica for like eight days. And then you're joining me in Louisville, Kentucky, the Costa Rica of Kentucky to drink bourbon and probably forget what the hell we did in Louisville. So Costa Rica, what was that like?

Joel (3m 20s):

You met up with some industry folks like give me the Costa Rica synopsis. Yeah.

Chad (3m 25s):

So thanks. And my beautiful wife, Julie, for taking me to Costa Rica. Yeah. That was a beautiful, sexy Costa Rican trip. And, and no question major thanks to Ethan Bloomfield and his amazing wife, Veronica for having us down to their beautiful casa with a pool, beaches, mountain, top sunset, watching restaurants and the Sora Costa Rica. If you don't know, Ethan, go back. I think as a few months, and we actually did an interview with him. Guy's been in the industry for a very long time, probably one of the biggest sales minds and hustlers in this space. So the guy's awesome. And then, so we had a great time in Nosara, right?

Chad (4m 7s):

It was, it was fun because we took the back roads. And when you say back roads in Costa Rica, they're not paved, they're all dirt roads. You're actually taking a four by four through rivers. I mean, it was, it was a really good time. Got down there, enjoyed it. He's got an amazing house, a couple of horses goat. I mean, it's just fucking crazy. And then we met up with Nick Livingston of Hone It and his beautiful wife Kerryn and his baby girls. And they showed us around Tamarindo, which is a beach town. And we spent most of the week eating amazing seafood, which I know you love, bar hopping, walking on the beach, lying by the pool and having at least one shot of Chile guano at every place we visited.

Chad (4m 56s):

So it was a good time, man. They just, if you get a chance to go to Costa Rica, flying to Liberia, rent a car, it's an hour away. You're on the beach in Tamarindo. Just fucking crazy.

Joel (5m 9s):

No, these, these two guys live there and they're happy there? Like, they're good. Yeah.

Chad (5m 14s):

Fucking outstanding, dude. And once you see how you can live in Costa Rica, I mean, and there's a, there's a big variance in, in degrees for how Ethan owns his own home, has like a farm and horses has a stable across the street. I mean, it is so amazing! And then Nick and his family have lived there, actually, I think I'll year longer in Tamarindo, pretty much on the beach. A little bit different, they've bounced around Tamarindo and renting places, but they're getting ready to build. So both, I mean, both families just love it there and I don't see them leaving anytime soon.

Joel (5m 53s):

So is there a pretty heavy ex-pat influence in Costa Rica? I mean, most, I assume a lot of things are in English anyway, but do you get a sense of like, oh, there's a lot of Americans here or does it still have that feel of central America?

Chad (6m 6s):

Well, it Still has the Central America feel, there's no getting away from that, which is awesome. But definitely no Nosara, I would say there's a great ex-pat community there, even though it's more, I would say rural versus Tamarindo, Tamarindo has a large ex-pat community and I mean, it's just, you can't get away from being in Central America and you don't want to, I mean, the sunsets that we saw there. Took pictures of you follow me on Instagram you're probably sick of it.

Joel (6m 33s):

Yeah, we all saw the pictures Asshole.

Chad (6m 36s):

But they were just too amazing not to share.

Joel (6m 40s):

Like your first pictures had a bunch of love, likes, and then by the, you know, 800 sunset that you shared, it was like no likes. Cause we were all pissed off at you for rubbing it in our face. And what's up with this swing. Is there just a random swing on a tree that people can swing on?

Chad (6m 56s):

So that is on the top of a mountain and you were literally swinging out if you would remember when your kids at the playground and you would like swing as far as high as you could and you would jump off.

Joel (7m 7s):


Chad (7m 7s):

If you did that, you would find yourself rolling down the side of a mountain. I mean, it was like not a cliff per se, but it was almost that. And we were at a restaurant on the top of a mountain in Nosara and watching the sunset and just getting ready to go have a nice, easy relaxing seafood dinner. It was really cool. Okay.

Joel (7m 32s):

So now those that know you pretty well know that you'll, you'll be leaving the US at some point, or at least that's still the plan. I know we haven't connected in a while, but it, it looks like it's down to Costa Rica or Portugal. And I asked you as you were gone. So, is Costa Rica now in the catbird seat for relocation, and at the time you said, well, ask me after a month in Portugal, this was at the beginning of your trip. Post-trip are you still sort of, is it still up in the air? Is Costa Rica in the poll position right now?

Chad (8m 5s):

I think, I think what Julia and I have have finally come to understand is that we want to live everywhere, right? So we want to be able to take a few years in Portugal, a few, maybe a year, maybe 18 months in Croatia, and then being able to do the same thing in Costa Rica. And if you follow all of those areas that I just mentioned, the cost of living there is pretty amazing, right? So we're not rich by any stretch of the imagination.

Joel (8m 36s):


Chad (8m 37s):

But it's one of those things where, you know, you'll get one of these on this big blue orb. So shit just, you know, go out the way you want to go out. That's how we want to go out.

Joel (8m 46s):

So as long as you can physically and financially do it, you're just going to globe hop.

Chad (8m 51s):


Joel (8m 51s):

Okay. And with the beauty of Airbnb and a few other places you can do that, I endorse that plan. So.

Chad (8m 58s):

I dig it.

Joel (8m 58s):

So which will be first Costa Rica?

Chad (9m 1s):

Probably a Portugal, more than likely still the heavy favorite, but we want to go over and spend probably about a month to figure out where on the Southern coast and the Algarve we want to plant for who knows how long, but we also want to spend a month in Croatia as well. So we'll see.

Joel (9m 22s):

Well, you, my friends suck because I have a four year old and I'm landlocked where I am for quite a while.

Chad (9m 27s):

Dude, they have international schools, they have international schools.

Joel (9m 31s):

That is true. And my wife is a professor gets to go on a, you know, I don't know, learning trips and you know, she goes and teaches places. So I'll get to travel hopefully. But I mean, not like your jet setting life of I'm in Monaco this month and next month I'm going to New Zealand and you know, whatever. So anyway, you suck, but Happy Birthday, nonetheless.

Chad (9m 53s):

Happy Birthday to you man.

Joel (9m 54s):

We'll have a good time in Louisville, I'm sure, even if it's not Costa Rica. So shout outs for me, for sure. You mentioned Katrina Collier, but it's her birthday as well. So Happy Birthday to her.

Chad (10m 8s):

Love her.

Joel (10m 9s):

The robot hater that she is. And, and I saw this as I was looking up anyone on my birthday, which there aren't really any, but I saw that Hung Lee's birthday, friend of the show is on June 2nd. So fairly early happy birthday to our favorite porn star Hun Lee.

Chad (10m 28s):

Shout out to Tyco Von Possen over at VONC for sending me some Glenlivet and Julie, some van Gogh vodka. Thanks, man. Really appreciate the birthday Vonc love, you know what?

Joel (10m 42s):

I Caught the VONC Love in college. I think we established that shot. Other than that. Yeah, I got, I got a different kind of shot for the bunk back in college, shout out to LinkedIn. Who's apparently listening to the show. They launched LinkedIn Boost this week. So if you have a company page and you're putting posts on your feed, just like Facebook used to do, you can push a boost button and without much headache, you can boost your posts to people that are like your followers, or you can target it pretty easily. So I'm glad that LinkedIn is making advertising on LinkedIn a little easier because it really sucks, historically.

Chad (11m 24s):

Big shout out to David Nicola who loves the Christopher Walken out trail. That's right, buddy, where we've actually been talking about doing some other celebrity outros. So keep listening, my friend, keep listening,

Joel (11m 37s):

Shout out to Harry and Charlie, we mentioned this on last week's podcast. So Charlie bit me, the popular YouTube video from, I don't know, 2007, the video went out for NFT as the original one was auctioned off. They for a blistering $760,000.

Chad (11m 57s):


Joel (11m 58s):

Which isn't quite what, you know, 29 million for a cyberpunk or whatever it was. But Hey, $760, will buy a lot of beer. So shout out to Harry and Charlie, I hope that finger is healed. And if not, you've got $760,000 for a new one.

Chad (12m 12s):

Jesus, Shout out to Seek Out that's right, Anup Gupta winner of Death Match. Also winner of Geek Wire's startup of the year. Great job guys.

Joel (12m 24s):

Well-deserved, well-deserved. Shout out to Vimeo, speaking of videos on YouTube, people may not even know Vimeo, but they were a upstart in the video sharing landscape a long time ago, and then YouTube stole pretty much all their thunder. Anyway, they went public this week, which is not necessarily noteworthy, but the fact that they have a diverse woman as their CEO, Anjali Sud. I'm probably not saying that correctly, but anyway, shout out to her and shout out to them. It's a big one to have another female in the C-suite on Wall Street.

Chad (12m 55s):

Shout out to an Illinois McDonald's who are so desperate for staff that they are giving away iPhones to new recruits if they stay for six months, all right. Way to go, McDonald's and then my last shout out is to Delta Airlines, my airline of choice. Thank you. They say mullet hair anti-vaxxers need not apply. Currently. 60% of Delta employees, roughly 74,000 employees are already vaccinated. And to help maintain that vaccination trajectory, Delta will mandate that those joining the company be vaccinated, unless you have an accommodation.

Chad (13m 37s):

I love seeing companies stand firm on this. Especially companies like Delta, where we could be transferring the virus obviously to other countries. So good job on Delta.

Joel (13m 48s):

Yup. And you, you know what I love to see? Whiskey, beer, and t-shirts in my mailbox. So if you love free shit, we say it every week, you got to go to We've got t-shirts from Emissary. We've got beer sponsored by AdZuna and our favorite whiskey powered by Sovren. Yes, with that Happy Birthday Bitch! All right. So you were out last week, but you've, you've got, you've got to vent a little bit about this whole chat bot feeding frenzy that went on. To set the table for you, pandoLogic acquired Wade and Wendy StepStone acquired Mya, I don't know what else do you want me to go into it?

Joel (14m 33s):

You can listen to the archives if you want to know my opinion, but Chad, what you got?

Chad (14m 39s):

It was funny because, and I don't know how you feel about it now, but it was almost kind of like, you know, you were somewhat confused. Why the hell Panda would buy Wade and Wendy? Are you still there? Or have you come out of that a little bit?

Joel (14m 51s):

I mean, I get it.

Chad (14m 52s):

Personally, I think this is a gangster move between the two, I mean, pando buys Wade and Wendy StepStone buys Maya. We'll go into that here in a minute, but I think the pando buy is a gangster move because employers suck at experience. And now at the very top of the funnel, not only are you targeting candidates better with programmatic, but now you're providing a better experience. Plus you can feed the conversation into the machine, learning beast and digest, even more signals to help better target candidates moving forward. So this to me is definitely an experience play no question, but it's a much larger data play for pando.

Chad (15m 37s):

And I think this is where StepStone could perspectively be getting it wrong. So StepStone buys Maya. And I think that this is an elementary kind of like step forward for Total Jobs, which is a job board that nobody knows here in the US right. But that's it. It's really just an evolutionary play for a job board. Oh, okay, cool. I would be more interested if they bought Maya and integrated it into AppCast, which I'm sure Chris Foreman would love to, but now pando can take more data, more signals. They can actually take all the data that they will be getting out of this chat bot, apply it to better targeting and they might actually jump ahead of AppCast because they'll have better signals in the programmatic space.

Joel (16m 27s):

So I agree with all that. And I think just, I think the technology is going to be something that most sites have to have much, like, I think text recruiting, although that hasn't quite integrated like I thought it would. For most companies, but you know, the, the thing that I found was terms not disclosed on both of these deals. I would have loved to have seen what kind of numbers these companies went for. You'll know that Maya raised 52 million, Wade and Wendy had raised 11.5 million. Whereas AppCast was a big deal at 75 million and something else, it was basically like a hundred million dollar deal. It looks like these, these weren't as big or else they would have announced that. So I was kinda down on the space for a little bit, and then I got an email from an agency who said that there'll be announcing a chat bot who they could not name, although the list is pretty short, we could probably come up with it.

Joel (17m 20s):

They were soon going to be announcing a new round of $15 million in capital. I'm going to go with Zuora on that one. Aida, if it's you, congratulations, preliminarily, if not, we'll get the announcement and talk about who it is. Might be a Happy Recruiter over in Europe. Who knows? They were a sponsor for a short time on the show. So, yeah, I think it's smart for both of them and something that a lot of companies should have. I just would've liked to have seen those companies announce a new round of funding because their evaluations went up because I think we were both really bullish on the chat bot technology, but it looks like it's a tougher industry than we thought.

Chad (17m 56s):

I think the big difference here is one's going to be used strategically, the other one's going to use more tactically. Right? And you're talking about used pretty much on an island on a job board of total jobs, versus being able to perspectively build a much larger weapon in pando for programmatic, for a global, for global use. And I know from AppCast standpoint and from StepStone being able to start to invade the US through AppCast and that I think myself that would have made a hell of a lot more sense, but again, not every chat bot is the same and maybe Maya just a wouldn't have been the right fit for being able to feed the right information into AppCast?

Chad (18m 38s):

Who knows, who knows?

Joel (18m 40s):

I think the consensus is that a paradox is the apex predator of the chat bot world. We'll have to see?

Chad (18m 46s):

They definitely are now. There's no question.

Joel (18m 48s):

Yeah, they definitely are now. I was surprised you mentioned the European growth in the part of the press of StepStone was like, we're going to launch this in Germany and we're going to launch it in Britain, the UK, I was kind of surprised that they didn't, maybe it was a strategic thing, but not tout more of an in to the American market with the purchase of Maya who has a fairly strong awareness in the US as well as some customers that they could start leveraging for StepStone but that might've been more strategic than anything else. They're coming. Folks, they're coming to America.

Chad (19m 20s):

They are coming in

Joel (19m 21s):

Neil Diamond style.

Chad (19m 22s):

They need properties though. So I still believe that StepStone will need a property to gobble up like a Monster, which I think is ripe for the taking on the clearance rack versus CareerBuilder, who Apollo's not going to take clearance rack cash that's for sure.

Joel (19m 39s):

Yeah. Yeah. I would be surprised if there weren't some conversations with our buddy Scott Guts about a Monster.

Chad (19m 46s):

And also I gotta throw this over at Ron Stodd. Ron Stodd had money from the Ron Stodd innovation fund in Wade and Wendy. Right? And I thought, I really thought that they were going to gobble up Wade and Wendy to be able to provide more efficiencies for all of their clients on the RPO side of the house. But then that shit just felt flat. So yeah. If you need a pill for that Ron Stodd. Yeah.

Joel (20m 11s):

No doubt. No doubt. All right. Well the big news, all right, ZipRecruiter finally went public on the New York stocks stock exchange on Wednesday under the ticker Zip, that sexy and entered the market at around $20 a share, which it went and below at one point, and then creeped back up to a little over $21 a share where it's a sort of hovering at the moment. ZipRecruiter management thinks the stock is worth around $25 a share, which will give the company a $3.3 billion valuation. It seems like things have settled at a roughly $2.8 billion valuation.

Joel (20m 52s):

Some headlines really touted the spike in price one Barron's headline read, quote, "ZipRecruiter stock surges on debut," end quote. And so Chad, after the Glassdoor head fake pre pandemic IPO, are you ready to buy some Zip?

Chad (21m 8s):

I have to give it to you. You called this about three years ago, right?

Joel (21m 12s):

And every year, since then.

Chad (21m 14s):

Zip's going IPO, I've got to say setting this up Zip is far in a way, the best brand in our space, period. They have the best brand. I, and I've also said on the show many times, I also believe Zip is a better, more evolved platform than Indeed. This is what Indeed should have become, right. Instead, Indeed, regressed into the early two thousands job board that it is today where Zip is more of a relevant delivery system of talent. So that the difference in their tech and models are stunning. Right? The big difference I think that we have to also elephant in the room is revenues.

Chad (21m 58s):

Indeed is obviously still killing it, but I'd buy there's no question you buy it now, buy it. Now, buy it fast because you have to remember, there's a lot of jobs that are going to be needed to fill. This is the time, right? So maybe early next year, take your buyout and sell all your stock.

Joel (22m 19s):

So this is when we say Chad and I are not financial experts or advisors, and don't take stock tips from us. Don't call us or tweet at us. Or sue us for God's sake.

Chad (22m 29s):

That'd be dumb.

Joel (22m 31s):

All right. So I have three takeaways from the ZipRecruiter IPO. I'm not nearly as bullish as you are. So my first take is, you know, this was not a disaster, but it also, wasn't a major firework show either. And I think that's indicative of the market we're in now in terms of you being a job site. And, I'll talk about brand for a second. And I think number three, but anyway, so this wasn't a disaster. You know, one of my takeaways was, you know, if Glassdoor sold for 1.5 billion a couple of years ago when I think investors. So I think investors are struggling with putting a $3 billion valuation on ZipRecruiter. And I think that sorta came out in the IPO.

Joel (23m 12s):

There's also significant competition. You mentioned Indeed killing it. And they are. So they have a lot of challenges in terms of finding growth. Although the economy is growing. I think they're going to have a nice 12 to 24 months to do that. They're also dealing with, we mentioned people coming to America. So whereas in ZipRecruiter is going to have to grow internationally where established players are. They're also going to have to, you know, manage the beachhead here in the U is you have players like Vonc and StepStone sort of knocking, knocking at the door. So, you know, it was sort of a meh 1st day. My second takeaway was that it was just sort of meh. So the Stock Twitch, was StockTwits, which is a pretty popular site where people talk about stocks and people can follow stocks.

Joel (23m 56s):

Now this is not a scientific commentary, but it was very telling that a name like ZipRecruiter, which is a brand name, people have seen the ads, they've heard the ads. They know, they know the name. There are out there. There are only about 400 people following ZipRecruiter at the end of yesterday, which is less than actually are following Dice.

Chad (24m 14s):


Joel (24m 14s):

Which I thought was interesting people, people like Roadblocks and Slack and some of the more recent names have tens of thousands of followers. So I thought that was sort of telling of the market just saying like, eh, a job board. Okay, great. I think people would rather invest in Roadblocks or Snowflake or Snap or even Bitcoin. I think a job site IPO in the nineties, it was cool. It It was, you know, where the, where the world was going. There was no social media, there was no AI and all this other shit. So today I just don't think it's that exciting. Number three is I think this goes back to your point of tech, is that I think they're, I think they're losing the narrative that they're not a job board.

Joel (24m 55s):

I mean, they want to grab the quote "marketplace matchmaker", which was a quote that I had said in many interviews, but I'm not so sure the market is buying it until they're viewed as a tech company, they're gonna have a hard time capturing the interest of today's investor. So all these ads that people know of, you know, the bar owner with the flags of colleges in the background saying, Hey, I posted a job on ZipRecruiter. And I had, you know, the woman that was hired walks in, like everyone knows these ads, right? They need to, they need a marketing campaign to get people thinking of them as, you know, Workday or LinkedIn or a tech. Because as long as they're in this job board posting thing, I think it's going to be really hard for them to break out of that.

Joel (25m 39s):

So those are my three takeaways from Zip. I would, I would not buy. A that, not that I give advice. It might be a hold at this point. I think it probably hovers around the twenties for awhile. Maybe gets up to 30 if the economy really fires up and they have some good, some good quarterly earnings report, but it was exciting to see an IPO. And I think bigger picture is like, is, is this going to spur, you know,, who's rumored to be going public, or iCIMS, who's been who's been rumored to go public. Does this motivate them to do it quicker? I don't think it scared them, but I don't think it was awesome. I don't think it was, oh shit, we got to do it today. Kind of thing.

Chad (26m 18s):

I think iCIMS is going there. No matter what.

Joel (26m 20s):

Yeah. iCIMS is more in that Workday bubble then ZipRecruiter is like post jobs. Post jobs Isn't getting anybody excited on Wall Street. Yeah.

Chad (26m 30s):

They've got to be seen as, instead of a board, which is really a single dimension into more of a multi-dimensional type of platform. That's what people want to see, the tech the platform, instead of just like Trump's social media platform that turned into a blog.

Joel (26m 50s):