top of page
Indeed Wave.PNG

HiBob? More Like "Hi Unicorn!"

What recession? This week, we have two new unicorns and another on its way in HiBob, Incredible Health and 15Five. Needless to say, however, we're not particularly bullish on every one. What's more, Whole Foods says, "Get off my lawn," and Adam Neuman of WeWork fame goes full Svengali on his new startup, Flow, to the tune of $350 million for an idea that will allegedly take form sometime in 2023. What could possibly go wrong? Oh yeah, we even talk about LinkedIn's "crying CEO" that's blowing up the socials this week. You're welcome! Now go sign-up for a chance to win free stuff at


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (21s):

Oh yeah. New Gallup report says 60% of workers are emotionally detached at work and 19% as being miserable. Side note, it also sounds like a survey of my exes. Hey boys and girls, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host Joel "quietly quitting" Cheeseman.

Chad (42s):

And this is Chad "that was a bullshit call" Sowash.

Joel (45s):

On this week's show Whole Foods says get off my lawn. Incredible Health lives up to its name. And HiBob, more like, HiUnicorn!

sfx (55s):

Pink Fluffy Unicorns.

Joel (57s):

Let's do this! Cleveland rocks, Cleveland rocks, Cleveland rocks! Cleveland Rocks!

Chad (1m 5s):

So Dude, when did baseball add that bullshit rule about a catcher with the ball in hand, not being able to block the plate. I mean, baseball is already fucking boring enough as it is. Why do you take, why do you make that rule? That's fucking stupid.

Joel (1m 19s):

I don't know. I mean, we live in Indy or baseball is, you know, sort of, I don't know, gets no attention. We have the Reds who suck and the Cubs who suck and I can't be a White Sox fan. So I don't know. I don't keep up with baseball it remind, but when we went back to Cleveland, I remembered how much I loved baseball and going to baseball games. It's kind of a shame that we live in an area that doesn't have professional baseball.

Chad (1m 41s):

Yeah, we've got a great little little field though there, right?

Joel (1m 46s):

Oh, for sure. You know, we got a great triple AAA team. Nice little field, but I can't name one player. I don't know if they're any good. They're never on the news, so yeah. Yeah. If you wanna go see a game, you can, but they're not gonna be in the World Series.

Chad (1m 59s):

Nothing but Colts on the news now, baby. That's what it's all about.

Joel (2m 3s):

Oh, it's yeah. Full on football season. I mean we're what three weeks away now.

Chad (2m 8s):

Oh yeah, man watching pre-season I, you know, obviously you get excited cuz it's football and then you start watching pre-season and then you realize it's pre-season so you only get to see like, you know, a few plays of the guys who are actually gonna be out on the field. Yeah but pretty stoked about Matt Ryan this year. Hopefully, you know, we'll get a couple of seasons, good run outta him because I think the team is pretty stout.

Joel (2m 34s):

Yeah. By the way, going to Cleveland, reminding me of what a dumpster fire the Browns are gonna be,

Chad (2m 40s):

Oh my God.

sfx (2m 40s):

Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

Chad (2m 44s):

Then shout out to the boys at Evergreen who have to work, you know, think about that shit on the daily for God's sakes.

Joel (2m 51s):

Hold on dude. As soon as I said that the news brief came over Deshaun Watson 11 game suspension, $5 million dollars. That just came across my phone as I said that, so anyway.

Chad (3m 3s):

Good timing.

Joel (3m 4s):

Enjoy we'll see 'em at the end of the season when they're 0 and 11. So it'll be fun.

Chad (3m 8s):

Yeah, yeah, no, we got a chance this week to go to Cleveland, AKA the mothership Evergreen Podcast Network to meet with Michael and the rest of the crew there. Good times! Went to a game, had some good grub. Yeah. I enjoyed going to Cleveland. Never thought growing up in Mansfield when, I mean, Cleveland was a fucking dumpster fire.

Joel (3m 29s):


Chad (3m 29s):

At one time that we would ever say that, you know, going to Cleveland, would be looking forward to that. And, now I do, even Julie said that, which blew my mind.

Joel (3m 38s):

I was pretty inebriated the second night. And I was like, did she really say we should get a home in Cleveland? Like sell the Indy boat and move to Northeast Ohio. Idk.

Chad (3m 51s):

That just tells you how inebriated she was.

Joel (3m 56s):

By the way you gotta tell the scotch story. Cause this is funny. So we go to Flannery's after the game and they have a nice selection of Irish scotch, etcetera. And I'm getting the gang a drink and Chad says, just get me whatever you're getting. Well, I get a nice little Laphroaig neat. So I get that for him. We sit down, you sniff it and you take it from there.

Chad (4m 21s):

I almost puked at the smell of, there was so much smoke. I swear the fire department almost fucking came. It was like chewing on fucking cow shit that was, you know, smoked in the, which I mean peat, which is pretty much what it is anyway. But yeah, that was, I can't believe I that's how drunk I was. I finished that drink. I woke up in the morning and I was like, why did you do that? You fucking idiot. You should have just handed it to Joel and went and got a real drink. That was fucking horrible.

Joel (4m 53s):

Like you smoked an old catcher's mitt when you woke up.

Chad (4m 57s):

It was so fucking horrible. I think when I breathed out in the morning, I could actually see smoke coming outta my nostrils. It was bad.

Joel (5m 3s):

Either love it or hate it. I love it.

Chad (5m 7s):

So fucking hate it!

Joel (5m 8s):

More for me. More for me. I love it. But anyway, yeah. Shout out to Cleveland and we have some more shoutouts, I guess, right? Like Roy Maurer, one of the few signs of life at SHRM.

Chad (5m 20s):

Love that man.

Joel (5m 22s):

Roy Maurer published Glassdoor ordered to out some anonymous users that featured yours truly quoting me saying "people who work for international companies will probably refrain from posting on Glassdoor or have some trepidation". I don't even know what trepidation means, but shout out to Roy Maurer at SHRM.

Chad (5m 43s):

I love when Roy makes us look smart, especially you. Cause that's not an easy job.

Joel (5m 49s):

Not easy.

Chad (5m 50s):

Thanks to Tiffany over at Work Human. She sent us some swag boxes. That was pretty nice.

Joel (5m 58s):

I wear the a hundred percent human hat, but nobody believes it. Nobody believes it. Shout out

Chad (6m 4s):


Joel (6m 5s):

Shout out to another a hundred percent human Amanda Gianelli okay. has promoted Amanda to VP of Sales in Media Alliances. Now you might think this is a shoutout about the promotion, but Chad you'd be wrong. The shout out goes to Amanda for being at Monster since 2006.

Chad and Cheese (6m 29s):

Wow. Wow.

Joel (6m 29s):

She's seen some shit! Most notably, a market cap of $8 billion in the good old days to being sold to Randstad in 2016 for a meager $429 million. Shout out to Amanda Gianelli your threshold for pain is much greater than mine is.

Chad (6m 47s):

Yeah, I can only imagine the bank account over therapist at this point. Jesus. Shout out to James Ellis. Oh boy. Sent us a t-shirt from the new gig at Employer Brand Labs. That's his new thing. So I don't quite get the t-shirt. He might have to explain it to us, but it says on its specific and attractive and different and real. So I guess the attractive was me. The different was you. I don't know what the specific or real was, but the acronym is S A D R. I'm lost.

Joel (7m 22s):

Not a more appropriate acronym for James Ellis. Could I think of than sadder? So yes. Yes. The it's a form fitting shirt that makes me look sexy. I'm sure it makes you look sexy as well. Chad.

Chad (7m 37s):


Joel (7m 37s):

All right. Shout out to Brian Wallake spelled W A L L A K E. I don't think it's Wallake. Like Bulaki one of our favorite...

Chad (7m 45s):

I do like that, Balaki. Yes.

Joel (7m 47s):

Key and peel skits. Anyway. There's no crying in baseball as we found out in Cleveland, but there is on LinkedIn. I'm betting. A lot of our listeners know about the crying CEO, Braden Wallake the CEO of HyperSocial. A marketing agency recently posted a picture of himself crying on LinkedIn sharing quote "this will be the most vulnerable thing I've ever shared. I've gone back and forth whether to post this or not. We just had to lay off a few of our employees. I've seen a lot of layoffs over the last few weeks on LinkedIn. Most of those are due to the economy or whatever other reason, ours, my fault." End quote. Out of touch, man of the people, sensitive ponytail guy, snowflake, or just plain cringy.

Joel (8m 32s):

I'll let our listeners decide, but shout out to the crying CEO, Braden Wallake.

Chad (8m 39s):

Yeah, we should buy the URL HyperShitBag and put his fucking picture on that. Shout out to another hyper shit bag. Jamie Diamond CEO of JP Morgan.

Joel (8m 51s):

Oh boy.

Chad (8m 52s):

Is at it again. This time Diamond likens remote work in Zoom as quote unquote "management by Hollywood Squares". That's right kids. The game show that started in 1965 with guests like Harvey, Korman, Zsa Zsa Gabor.

sfx (9m 7s):

What did you say?

Chad (9m 8s):

Vincent Price. Sandy Duncan, Madame, and Joan Rivers and hosted by everybody knows Pete Marshall. This old timer's reference is just another reason why Jamie Diamond should be put out to pasture as 99% of his employees have no fucking clue what Hollywood Squares even was.

Joel (9m 26s):

What did you do go to go to Wikipedia for Hollywood Squares and like copy and paste all their most famous guests on the show? Or was that from memory?

Chad (9m 34s):

I didn't copy and paste, but I did pick out ones that at least I somewhat remembered, but I knew nobody else would.

Joel (9m 43s):

Remember how sexist that show was.

Chad (9m 45s):

Dude. It was the seventies. Everything was sexist.

Joel (9m 48s):

It was think about Family Feud, where they, where he kissed. He kissed every woman on that show, like on the lips. Do you remember that show?

Chad (9m 56s):

You're saying he should have kissed the men too. I mean, what are you saying?

Joel (9m 60s):

Like shit that went down in the seventies that molded our being is really fucked up, which know explains a lot.

Chad (10m 7s):

We'll get into more of that later.

Joel (10m 11s):

Richard Dawson. That was Richard Dawson, right?

Chad (10m 14s):

It was.

Joel (10m 15s):

The Gong Show? Oh man. Anyway.

Chad (10m 17s):

Oh yeah. Chuck Barris.

Joel (10m 18s):

Let's talk fantasy football before we go too much off the ledge with its seventies references. We're doing it again this year, man.

Chad (10m 27s):

Can't wait!

Joel (10m 27s):

And we got FactoryFix ...

Chad (10m 30s):

The F F F F baby.

Joel (10m 31s):

to bankroll, the whole thing. Yes. The FFA FFA league this year. We'll be promoting that very soon. Go to, click the link and sign up for your chance to play fantasy football with Chad and Cheese and FactoryFix.

Chad (10m 47s):

And, knock Jason Putnam off the top of the fantasy football mountain kids. That's what we're gonna be doing this year. At least trying to.

Joel (10m 55s):

And while we're talking about free, Chad, we gotta talk about the other things that people could win. If they go to and click the link. We got whiskey from Textkernel, not one bottle Chad, but two, one, my choice one year is we got...

Chad (11m 8s):

And his is gonna be shit by the way. If, if he's picking drinks just buy his drink.

Joel (11m 15s):

No, no, I, I got a better win loss record than you do on that.

Chad (11m 18s):

I don't think so.

Joel (11m 21s):

We got beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. T-shirts coming soon from our friends at JobGet. We're doing the polling now! It's hotly contested. So pick your free shirt. We'll be posting that on the socials. We'll be emailing that out to our listeners and subscribers. So make sure you vote on that. And also kids, if you haven't given us a review on your platform of choice for podcast, please take 15 seconds. Go and give us a review. Give us some stars. It's our oxygen. It's the only way we get better.

Chad (11m 54s):

Love it. Events kids. All right. All right. We've got, you've heard of it before HR Tech, September 13th through the 16th. And where's that at? That's gonna be in Las Vegas kids. Then right after that, we go to Inspire HR in Nashville, Vegas and Nashville. It's ridiculous.

Joel (12m 13s):

NashVegas and Las Vegas, baby. Come on now. Hit me up.

Chad (12m 18s):

October 5th through the 7th. And then last but not least, we are wrapping up the year in Paris. That's right. Unleashed World in Paris, October 12th and 13th. For all of this information to register. Get your asses out there. People, if you haven't been to a show, go to a fucking show. If you haven't been to Paris before, go to Paris, go to Click on the events link in the upper right hand corner. All the information's there. Register.

Joel (12m 46s):

Nice. All right! Let's talk birthdays. Some fans are celebrating another trip around the sun. Happy Birthday, Candace Miller. Mark Dubel. Brian Thompson, our friend at RecTech speaking of Nashville, where we enjoyed some, some hot Nashville chicken with our Canadian friends. Marley Huckabee. Peter Suchi, Cathy McPhillips in Cleveland, actually. Jerry Crispin, holy shit, celebrating 75 years on the planet. And we're all better for it. Stephen Fogerty, former Adidas and Twitter TA icon.

Joel (13m 27s):

He's now co-founder of a restaurant called the Celery in Portland, Oregon. Imagine that a restaurant called the Celery in Portland? That's crazy. And our friend Richard Cho.

Chad (13m 36s):


Joel (13m 37s):

Who's at Gem now. Right? And we're interviewing him pretty soon.

Chad (13m 41s):


Joel (13m 41s):

Wow. Excited about that. A lot of birthdays. Happy Birthday, everybody have some Laphroaig on me while you're at it. Don't do it. Don't don't do it.

Chad (14m 2s):


Joel (14m 2s):


Chad (14m 2s):


Joel (14m 2s):

Announced a $150 million dollars!

Chad (14m 5s):


Joel (14m 6s):

Series D funding round.

Chad (14m 10s):

Oh, wow.

Joel (14m 11s):

The round takes the Tel Aviv based company to total funding of $424 million. An evaluation of $2.45 billion dollars. That's right. Unicorn alert Chad.

sfx (14m 23s):

Pink Fluffy Unicorn.

Joel (14m 24s):

They last raised $150 million in a Series C last October. HiBob reported 370 new hires since the fourth quarter and expanded its New York and London offices while opening up an office in Berlin, Deutschland. They have users in 166 countries. Chad, are you ready to say HiBob? Or would BuyBob be more appropriate?

Chad (14m 46s):

We talked about HiBob, several times over the past two years and I believe we can say that we're both fans. This type of this type of expansion though. I mean, this could be amazing and will be one of the big, big success stories or depending on obviously the economy, we could see a rocket ship fall back to earth and gravity just smash the shit out of it. But what I want to address is falling valuations. We've been talking about bloated valuations for years now, but we're seeing valuations drop in many other business sectors, but not as much in HR and TA.

Joel (15m 24s):


Chad (15m 24s):

So you, you might ask why? Well, you have to remember that HR and TA lag when it comes to adoption. And many of the automation based platforms have been installed in other sectors for about a decade or so. So they're fighting to stay a top of the mountain. While HR, they just discovered the fucking mountain, right? So this new traction in adoption is one of the major reasons why we're seeing valuations not plummeting, right? That's one of the reasons why this is new for us. So we're starting to see that rocket ship. So why companies like, Personio and HiBob getting so much traction, right? Because there's obviously a lot of HR and TA happening out there from a platform and startup standpoint.

Chad (16m 9s):

Well, because they streamline and automate the shit that nobody wants to do. I mean, wait, instead of spending hours a month on a task that takes only minutes and it really sucks. Tell me more. I want to hear more about that. Not to mention scalability, hiring companies are losing new hires during the onboarding process because humans don't scale well and systems do. So instead of tasking your recruiters with filling a position, they've already filled just two weeks ago, keep the new hire engaged and warm through automated systems in a system that allows the ability to ping them and their hiring managers.

Chad (16m 50s):

Right? So we'r looking at a new era of tech in automation that is finally being adopted.

Joel (16m 57s):

I am a fan, but I'm skeptical. This should maybe be called HiFroth instead of HiBob, because this feels super frothy. You know, we've said it before businesses don't die because they take too little money, They die because they take too much money. Big time competition from old to new companies on this one, a need to grow into new markets. It feels a little like keeping up with the Joneses. You mentioned Personio, but they have competition from Bamboo, Rippling, ADP, and a whole bunch of others. They target mid-sized to small businesses, which is dangerous Personio, which really focuses. And we love that about them. HiBob wants to be everybody's friend. So it's appropriate that he's named HiBob, but growing in a new markets is really, really tough.

Joel (17m 43s):

These numbers, valuations, and what they've raised seem a little outta bounds to me. It feels a little dangerous. Unlike another unicorn that we'll be talking about on the show, I'm a little skeptical about HiBob. I know it's a small example, but we mentioned Candace Miller in the birthday list. Candace was hired about a year ago to be, I think, VP of Lead Generation or something for HiBob. She lasted about a year there, which is always kind of a little bit of a red flag for me. Not that it speaks for the whole company, but I just I'm skeptical about HiBob, based on their plans to go global, the amount of competition that's come up and sort of like, Hey, well, everyone else has a billion plus dollar valuation we need that too.

Joel (18m 28s):

So let's go raise the money. I'm not sure that they're gonna be better for it. Time will tell. In general I like them, but I think they may have bitten off more than they can chew with this round of investment.

Chad (18m 41s):

I mean, this is a gamble, man. I agree a hundred percent, right? You either took way too much fucking money or you did it to spawn hyper growth, which actually helped you invade the US, which is exactly, you know, what they wanted to do. And they wanted to do well.

Joel (18m 58s):

Yeah. And you know, news came out this week around, you know, quarterly reports from Recruit and Zip Recruiter. They all talked about a slowdown and sort of hiring and job postings. We had Apple released a lot of contract recruiters. So I mean, timing is a little bit weird for a lot of these companies. We'll just have to see now whether I'm skeptical and HiBob is irrelevant for our next company that we're gonna talk about cause there's no skepticism on these guys. So Incredible Health sounds a little bit like my doctor following my annual checkup.

Chad (19m 39s):

Haha your colonoscopy.

Joel (19m 41s):

Yeah. My colonoscopy Incredible Health announced an $80 million Series B funding round valuing the company at $1.65 billion.

sfx (19m 47s):

Pink Fluffy Unicorn.

Joel (19m 49s):

The San Francisco based company provides a software platform that sources nurses on a permanent placement basis for hospitals. The company said it reduces the time to hire for permanent nurses to just 14 days. The company said more than 10,000 US nurses join the site's platform every week. I'll say that again, 10,000 every week and it now partners with 600 hospitals. New investors include a Workday co-CEO, an NBA player, Kaiser Permanente and John's Hopkins in addition to the likes of Dresen Horowitz. Sounds like a slam dunk, but they're not the only game in town.

Joel (20m 31s):

Chad, what are your thoughts on Incredible Health?

Chad (20m 33s):

Yeah. Hiring in the healthcare sector is obviously right for disruption and talent being nurses want flexibility and options. So wrapping in free continuing education for nurses that provides more sticky, right? They have a social network as well. And that provides more of the sticky and a feeling of the healthcare systems applying to you the nurse instead of the other way around. I believe Incredible Health has messaging right. Now, the model and the population they are serving though, I would say they're missing the traveling nurses segment. With a huge shortfall in nursing talents, I'm not sure incredible, Incredible Health can miss a huge swath of nursing talent, like that.

Chad (21m 14s):

So I really believe they're going to have to broaden up, especially with these 600 healthcare systems they added. Right? So yes, it's great from a messaging standpoint and a sales standpoint. Now it's all about deliverable. Also Incredible Health doesn't integrate into systems, meaning they pretty much wanna own the browser time and be the system of choice and record. In most sectors that would be a big no-no. We are always talking about who do you integrate with? Who do you integrate with? But the bureaucracy and tight requirements to be allowed to integrate into a healthcare system, no matter what it is, is so onerous for a startup.

Chad (21m 54s):

Plus the time it would take just to get the software approved and integrated would take years. And Incredible Health doesn't have that kind of time. So this shortens the funnel for implementation. So instead of taking years, nursing recruiters can start immediately. So I believe Incredible Health will have to broaden its footprint as I'd said, but this is a great start. And the validation of having a Kaiser Permanente come in to provide funding is pretty awesome as well.

Joel (22m 23s):

I'll also add that their founder is a woman of color, which we should celebrate as well and she's also a doctor! Imagine that a doctor with a healthcare site in our space.

Chad (22m 34s):


Joel (22m 34s):

So yeah, I mean they're five years old. You mentioned they got a lot of work to do, but they they've come a long way in just five years and 2021 revenue grew 500%. I'll say it again, 10,000 US nurses are joining every week. I mentioned 600 hospitals, that's up from 200 just a year ago. They've apparently reduced the average time to hire from 14 days from an industry standard of 82 days. And they say that they save each hospital location, at least $2 million annually in travel nurse overtime and HR costs. The US is on track, let alone the rest of the world to be 1 million nurses short by the end of 2023.

Joel (23m 17s):

While 77 million baby boomers in the US are not getting any younger, which tells me there are going to be a lot of nurses.

Chad (23m 26s):


Joel (23m 26s):

Looking for a bigger, better deal. And 10,000 a week says Incredible Health may just have the secret sauce. I just hope they have the bank account to handle all the cheddar that's coming their way. I'm sure, your buddy, Jamie Diamond would be happy to service that account. Speaking of accounts in servicing, let's take a quick break and pay some bills and talk about another startup with money.

Chad (23m 53s):

So one of your favorite things, a number in a name in a URL.

Joel (23m 57s):


Chad (23m 57s):

And they're two numbers they're numbers and then they're actually, you know, 15, the number 15 and then five. I don't have a problem with this. I think it's fairly simple for anybody who understands the English language, but, but you're not a big fan.

Joel (24m 12s):

Not a big fan of that strategy for URLs. Thankfully they don't have a hyphen between 15 and 5. And I wonder if I go actually type in the word if it redirects to them or if I put in 15 and the number 5, hopefully they've covered all the bases on what their names could be. But yeah, this as a URL, I don't like it. But as a company I kind of do. So the news out this week, San Francisco based 15 five, again, that's number 15 and the word five dot com.

Chad (24m 47s):

It does redirect by the way.

Joel (24m 49s):

Oh it does. Okay, good. Thanks Chad, for doing that research while I'm reading the summary, the company pioneered continuous performance management, it's raised this week, $52 million to accelerate growth and continued innovation. Their last raise was a B round of $30.7 million. That was in 2019. This brings total funding to $94.1 million. They got their name Chad from the original idea that it would take employees about 15 minutes to fill out a feedback form and just five minutes for supervisors or business owners to review their employees' responses. Customers include the likes of Spotify, Credit Karma, and HubSpot.

Joel (25m 32s):

Founded way back in 2011.

Chad (25m 34s):


Joel (25m 34s):

15Five employs about 350 people. That's according to LinkedIn. Chad, give us your thoughts on 15Five, aside from the name and the domain.

Chad (25m 41s):

Well, I love the new talent management platforms that are coming out because we're getting new, more dynamic information analytics and those types of things where we can make decisions faster. The problem I have with talent management platforms is that they are not messaging to the real problem. The real problem is helping HR and TA create a better narrative around business performance, not retention. Don't get me wrong. Retention is huge, but that's not where the story ends and the C-suite needs to understand just how people leaving the company affects the bottom line. So when a customer service rep leaves, how does that affect service call times?

Chad (26m 23s):

Do customers have to wait and does the quality go down? How does that reflect on client attrition? HR needs to solve business problems to gain more budget and resources. Then in turn, it leads to better retention, yada yada, yada, yada. Right? So if we're speaking the business speak, then we'll get what we want. But the thing is, none of these platforms are really focused on helping HR turn that narrative into business speak. When HR can make the business case, they receive more budget, when HR receives more budget.

Joel (26m 54s):


Chad (26m 55s):

They spend it and that's exactly what platforms like 15Five want and need. So that type of not really not really pivot, but that kind of re-trajectory of a narrative and helping their clients get to where they need to, which is to the big kids table instead of the little kids table. That's something that I think we need to do. And if companies like 15Five want to survive, they have to stop the basic bitch talent management narrative.

Joel (27m 21s):

So this one's pretty nostalgic for me. It was around the time when Entelo launched. It was about the time when Text Recruit launched. It was one of those sort of simple ideas that you, you went, why didn't I fucking think of that? That's pretty clever. Well, they're still around. They spent 10 years growing organically and have really just started raising serious money in light of, you know, work from home. I'm sure. In 2019, they saw the riding on the wall where the world was going. A greater need for companies to engage their employees digitally versus face to face, because while we're working from home now, there's also greater demand for retention tools. Like you mentioned, whether it's a good one or not.

Joel (28m 3s):

I think it is. And a generation that demands constant contact, thank you, millennials and generation Z. In many ways, the world has come to them in the last 10 years. I'm very bullish on the trend of employee engagement and companies. We talked to confirm this week, who will be dropping up Firing Squad with them real soon. But the whole idea of like new ways to engage employees, to increase retention, I'm really bullish on the trend. And, I don't know, I have to be bullish on the company that sort of pioneered the idea of doing that in a really simple, quick way. They've obviously evolved from the basic idea of, Hey, get employees to spend 15 minutes for bosses and business owners to spend five minutes to see what the hell their employees are thinking and what they're doing.

Joel (28m 53s):

So way ahead of the curve. The industry has come to them. They've got a great brand. They're really entrenched in technology. I mean, San Francisco, I assume they have every company tech company using them, or at least knowing about them. So congrats to them for raising the money. I think that they've done a great job over the last 10 years and will continue to do so. They're gonna get a lot more competition, which we've talked about and talked to, but I think they're gonna come out just fine and be one of the leaders in this and more than likely be an acquisition target in the next five years.

Chad (29m 30s):

Yeah. Talent management is getting bigger and bigger by the day as we start to understand the actual, you know, cost to business. So yeah, I think there's an opportunity here. Again, any company in the talent management side of the house, if they can tie it to bottom line, you're gonna get more money. You're gonna get that. You're gonna get that dollar faster. And that just means, guess what? You go to super unicorn before, you know it.

Joel (29m 56s):

Super unicorn. That's another chance to blame my favorite town by. All right, Chad, from Jamie Diamond at the top of the show to maybe one of your new boys, John Mackey, let's talk about Whole Foods. So this is from insider. The CEO of Whole Foods says younger people have to earn the right to do meaningful work. Gen Z disagrees, Whole Foods, CEO John Mackey, who is 68 years old by the way, recently said younger people quote "don't seem like they wanna work". end quote. And partly because they want meaningful jobs, he added quote, "you can expect to start with meaningful work.

Joel (30m 36s):

You're going to have to earn it" end quote. But younger workers aren't just being more selective with their jobs because they want their work to have an impact, they're also demanding the pay be equitable. Okay, Chad, once again, gen X gets to sit on the sidelines and watch the world burn between boomers and the utes. Who you got?

Chad (30m 57s):

Well, at least this asshole didn't reference the Hollywood Squares. Let's break this down about really what's happening here. You ready for this?

Joel (31m 5s):

Break it down, baby, break it down.

Chad (31m 7s):

Boomers are a product of the greatest generation and they would never live up to their parents quote unquote, "I worked in the field from sunup to sundown for a nickel a week story". So boomers always had a chip on their shoulder and then Xers like us, we had to grow up being parented by those who were still striving to live up to the greatest generation and never could, which is why Xers became rebels and kinda like, fuck all you guys. Millennials started looking for purpose. And then Zs, they're saying, Hey, if you can't give purpose, they're taking a step further if you can't gimme purpose and a living wage, well, then you can fuck off.

Chad (31m 48s):

I'll just live in with mom and dad a little bit longer. Guys like John Mackey, do not know how to manage that. They, they don't know how to manage something where they give a iron fist and somebody just doesn't do exactly what they said, right? They haven't evolved. And he, along with the Jamie diamonds of the world, need to be put out the pasture. And let's be clear boomers you bought your first house for $17,000. That new shiny car that you bought was $3,500. And the average college debt in 1970 was less than four grand. Boomers you had a great run, but if you're not going to realize that things have changed since 1970, you need to get the fuck out of the way.

Joel (32m 32s):

Remember when we talked a few weeks ago about and how your brand is what others say about you not what you say about yourself. By the way, digital staffing agency still isn't anywhere on's homepage. Anyway, side note, the same goes for employees. It's not what the CEO says workers should want. It's what workers actually want. Mackey is projecting has experienced 50 years ago and thinking it applies to people today. Sorry to break the news, but it doesn't. And like it or not, employers have to adapt. Hoping things go back to the way they were, is not a strategy.

Joel (33m 14s):

I was actually surprised a hippie dippy company, like Whole Foods was saying such things, then I remembered they were owned by Amazon and that kind of set me straight. Personally, I think he's probably right, but he doesn't have to sell me, he has to sell the people who work for Whole Foods and those apparently are gen Zs who feel much differently than I do. Get with the times, Whole Foods and CEO, John Mackey.

Chad (33m 42s):

Well, and then also the article from CNBC, job happiness is at a staggering all time low. And, in the article it says, this is not just an HR issue, but a bottom line one as well. Yeah, no shit. There are two very important messages here, kids. Number one, we can't lead and work like we used to. Number two, HR needs to take this quote "is not an HR issue, but a bottom line issue" and run with it. Our HR leaders must be more business savvy and stop talking about cost per hire, retention, and other shit, unless it actually ties to cost, to performance, to bottom line.

Chad (34m 24s):

That's all that matters. How can an empty position perform? It can't. Right. And that's one of the things that you need to be talking about that empty position can't perform. So what is the cost of all of those empty positions to our bottom line? What additional budget do we need to ensure that we can rectify that issue? We need to have those discussions and we need to be leaders as opposed to just following around and getting in the fetal position in the corner and hoping that the C-suite throws some scraps our way.

Joel (34m 52s):

Amazon did not get your memo Chad. Amazon did not get your memo.

Chad (34m 56s):

They did not.

Joel (34m 57s):

So let's take a second. Let's send Jeff Bezos of fax and let him know and when we get back, we'll talk about the gift that keeps on giving

Chad (35m 6s):

I'll page him.

Joel (35m 7s):

All right, Chad, like I said, it's the gift that keeps on giving. WeWork's Adam Neuman no longer with WeWork, but founder of the company. If you haven't watched or listened to We Crash, by the way, I highly recommend both of those.

Chad (35m 28s):

Do it.

Joel (35m 28s):

Anyway, Neuman secured this week, $350 million in funding. Thanks, Andresen Horowitz for his new real estate company Flow. There's no real product yet. So let's call this a $350 million idea. Flow's website does not give much information about the company. Only saying it is scheduled to debut sometime in 2023. We do know that it deals with residential real estate and according to court documents compiled by the Wall Street Journal Neuman has acquired majority stakes in over 4,000 apartments in places like Miami, Nashville, and Fort Lauderdale. These properties are valued at more than $1 billion according to the Wall Street Journal.

Joel (36m 11s):

Chad stopped me if you've heard this one before, how is this going to play out?

Chad (36m 19s):

Well, this is very simple. We already have writers waiting to be able to do we crashed again. The guy's a carnival Barker. He's selling elixir and he made millions off his last disaster. Why would anybody ever back this guy? It's just like the CEO from Rippling. He crashed his last company, right? Stupidity. Crashed the last company. Why are you going to believe in a guy who doesn't even have a product yet? He has an idea. He sold plenty of people on the idea of WeWork before. And he left with millions in millions, in millions of dollars. While the company crashed before a real CEO got in there to start managing it.

Chad (37m 1s):

This to me just demonstrates first and foremost, the inequity within our system. We have so many great black and female and individuals of color, founders that are out there who are struggling just to get fucking funding. And you get a guy who's a good looking guy. WeWork Jesus and he has notoriety, but I don't know how you can trust him. Doesn't

sfx (37m 27s):

Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Joel (37m 34s):

Just when you thought he'd be spokesperson for Chick-fil-A Chad, he went this way. One word, one word Svengali Oxford defines Svengali "as a person who exercises a controlling or mesmeric influence on another". Andreeson said quote "Adam returns to the theme of connecting people through transforming their physical spaces and building communities where people spend the most time, their homes" end quote. Replace people with companies and this looks like WeWork 2.0. There are people who have a natural ability to raise emotion and crush logic in the process. Our own industry has Rippling, like you mentioned, but also Jason Goldberg.

Chad (38m 16s):

Oh God yes.

Joel (38m 17s):

These guys get millions for handful of failed companies. One of which in Goldberg's case, was a huge flame out. And they have an ability to convince people to open their wallets and write checks. It's sort of like awe-inspiring and yet confusing and depressing. And Neuman is a master of this, much like the Cleveland Brown season Chad. I do not expect this to end well.

Chad and Cheese (38m 47s):

We out, we out.

OUTRO (39m 26s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


bottom of page