ZipRecruiter Is Back, Mercor Hits $20B, and Seekout Musical Chairs
Mercor Hits $20B, ZipRecruiter Rages, and Corporate America Trims the Fat
On this episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast ("HR's Most Dangerous Podcast"), Chad, Joel, and Emi prove once again that corporate HR news goes down much smoother with a cold Guinness and zero filter.
Before diving into the industry's latest cash grabs, the gang detours through Silicon Valley honeypots, questionable substitute-teaching methods, and why single listeners should apparently pack their bags for Finland immediately. Once they finally get to business, no brand is safe:
Mercor Just doubled its valuation to $20 billion
ZipRecruiter clawed its way out of the toilet by riding the wave of universal hatred for Indeed?
Noon AI campaigns: Are TA leaders allegedly pocketing $300 to shill for AI vendors?
Amazon, Canva, Virgin Media & PepsiCo: Slashing thousands of jobs in the name of "efficiency".
SeekOut plays musical chairs with its C-suite
Talroo is movin' on up!
Boom Band's Jeff Taylor is raising cash.
Who'd Ya Rather with Bytes or Rocker
Hit play to hear HR’s sharpest tongues roast the industry's biggest headlines.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel Cheesman (00:31.026)
yeah. Anxiously awaiting the refund on my Cybertruck deposit. Hey kids, it's the Chat and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Chinese Honeypot Cheesman.
Chad Sowash (00:45.365)
Chad, hey, I need a Guinness. So what?
Emi B (00:48.47)
And this is Emi Habibi Beredigo.
Joel Cheesman (00:52.272)
And on this episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, Morecore raises, Zip Recruiter Rages, and who'd you rather? Let's do this.
Chad Sowash (00:59.307)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (01:07.004)
Chad, I I I I I'm concerned. I'm I'm really concerned. I'm concerned. So so Jeremy came home yesterday. he had a he had a he had a pack of of cigarettes and a subscription to Hustler magazine. So so I'm not sure I'm not sure what your daughter is is teaching him. she was his substitute teacher. Here's here's a here's a picture of of of Jeremy with with Kennedy. So
Chad Sowash (01:09.79)
Uh-oh.
Chad Sowash (01:29.691)
Joel Cheesman (01:32.86)
So I'm a little concerned. I don't know what's going on with Kennedy's teaching tactics, but a little little weird to see to see Jeremy carrying a hustler and a penthouse home from school.
Chad Sowash (01:33.117)
I love it.
Chad Sowash (01:38.604)
I love them. I love Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she she's she's been in she's been in Europe for a very long time. So I mean, you know, it's much more lax. You're allowed to drink earlier, you smoke earlier, you know, you know, in nudity, that's nothing. That's not a big deal. So I think, you know, you know, that she that that that's not a bad thing. And and it's hilarious because when she
Joel Cheesman (01:46.239)
Mm. Very liberal.
Emi B (01:49.262)
A bit more liberal, yeah. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (02:01.898)
So she she kind of took a break from the whole business landscape for a minute. And she's doing some substitute teaching, kind of giving back to the community. She went back to back to Indiana. Yep, yep, back to Indiana, living with grandma and grandpa for a minute while she kind of like pulls things together and she wants to go to New York or who knows where she'll go, but she'll she'll end up somewhere. But I get a message from her, Julie and I get a message from her yesterday, and that picture, and I'm like, you gotta be shitting me.
Joel Cheesman (02:05.361)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (02:08.763)
Yeah. Yeah. Moulding young minds.
Emi B (02:10.36)
Love it.
Joel Cheesman (02:30.277)
Ha ha.
Chad Sowash (02:31.531)
Awesome.
Joel Cheesman (02:33.541)
He was he was the star of the class. The star of the class. Cause she was like, My dad works with your dad on the podcast. So it became like this whole thing like Jeremy's dad is cool and he knows the substitute teacher. So yeah, he he he came home looking like Jensen Wong with the NVIDIA leather jacket and yeah, everything. By the way, if if if if Kid needs a job, I I think Chinese need spies. So maybe she can you know.
Emi B (02:36.168)
I that.
Emi B (02:45.686)
you
Chad Sowash (02:45.96)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (02:52.191)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Sowash (02:56.719)
Joel Cheesman (03:03.089)
Find opportunity there.
Chad Sowash (03:04.501)
Yeah, I d I don't know. I don't know that she could make that work. she yeah, I don't know she could make that work.
Joel Cheesman (03:09.019)
Can you imagine the army of women in Silicon Valley? Like if J Jensen's getting honeypotted, all these d all these engineers at AI companies are shagging Chinese chicks.
Chad Sowash (03:16.208)
dude. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (03:22.367)
Well, and that's the thing is like, you know, we we always we always see the like the the 000 seven kind of like spy movies. I mean the the the espionage that generally happens. I mean, yes, there there's definitely governmental espionage. And and we actually talked to a CIA agent who was a a part of that whole thing. But from from a scheme standpoint, there's so much more corporate espionage. And these are I mean, look at look at the rippling deal thing, right? That dude.
Emi B (03:23.271)
Betty, I'm waiting.
Joel Cheesman (03:28.495)
Uh-huh.
Joel Cheesman (03:33.954)
Uh-huh.
Joel Cheesman (03:49.979)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (03:50.752)
was more like Mr. Bean, right? I mean you're you're looking for and you're literally just probing for the weak points. and so it's not always as sexy as it seems or sounds. But in this case, you know, hey Jensen got his own wong.
Joel Cheesman (03:53.316)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (04:04.334)
I mean, do these in these developers good God.
Emi B (04:11.575)
my god.
Joel Cheesman (04:15.941)
I mean, you you these guys who are nerds their whole life, never got a date, are now being approached by like sexy Asian women? Like game game over. Game over. Lock me up. Yeah. Like, jeez. I don't know. So so is Jensen too big to fire? What what what's your prediction?
Emi B (04:21.134)
Suddenly they are hearts. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (04:23.425)
got ya. Zuckerberg, yeah. All right. Jesus.
Chad Sowash (04:34.847)
God. I mean th the the big question is in okay, so in the US right now, it nothing is out of bounds. I mean, we already have companies who are hacking other companies, which is against the law, but they're just saying, well, it's AI, right? And if it's AI, then it's okay. And he is NVIDIA. I mean, so I mean it's yeah, I think with this administration, he he could do whatever the hell he wants. I mean, and I don't care how many chips he sells to China. I I don't because he's not gonna not
Joel Cheesman (04:52.155)
Mm-hmm.
Emi B (04:57.74)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (05:04.265)
These guys aren't gonna do anything to him. So maybe the next administration might, you know, hold a little bit more of a a corporate guardrail, put go corporate gu guardrails in place, but th these guys won't. They're weak.
Joel Cheesman (05:13.592)
Mm-hmm.
Man, this this is an onion they're peeling and I think it's gonna get real stanky real fast. I mean, th the whole thing like Trump knew about this. I think he put it under the rug bef till the election was over because AI and well look the stu the stock market is the one thing that he's been able to raise his hand and go, I did that. And if if if this came yeah, if this came out before the election, then it's like, Okay, I don't I don't even have AI to to stand on. At least it was a risk. So I think
Chad Sowash (05:21.727)
You think so? Yeah, it could.
Emi B (05:27.48)
Did he? I didn't realise who knew.
Chad Sowash (05:35.925)
Yeah, and NVIDIA is the cornerstone.
Emi B (05:37.923)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (05:43.835)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (05:45.456)
I think Trump knew about this shit. I think he swept it under the rug. I think that the whatever was the secrets that were traded, the deals that happened with chips and I mean s companies, sa you know, I I just think it's gonna get real stinky. I think it it's really what what does NVIDIA stock do? 'Cause if this keeps getting bad and NVIDIA stock keeps to keeps tanking, like the board may have no choice, although the board is basically handpicked by Jensen.
Chad Sowash (05:47.305)
Yes, obrigado.
Emi B (06:14.946)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (06:15.021)
So like it's yeah, I and this is a huge company. This is not, you know, some Joey bag of donuts. Yeah. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (06:19.869)
It is. No. I it again, it's the cornerstone. It's the cornerstone of the market. I mean, all the other AI companies are are are literally benching off of NVIDIA. So it's like a yeah, what do you do? Yeah, you go ahead and you tank this dude and the stock goes plummeting. What happens to the rest of the market? I'd fuck, I don't know. But again, it it it's the whole too big to fail scenario. And if if this does go deep.
Joel Cheesman (06:29.627)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (06:49.819)
get it. then then then who who knows what's gonna happen. I mean, seriously.
Emi B (06:51.895)
Yeah
Emi B (06:57.932)
mean, for now, I think it's fine, but yeah.
Joel Cheesman (07:01.137)
if if only we had UFC's Dana White at press briefings telling us what was what was actually going on. I don't know. Happy Veterans Day, Chad. I know you don't like to get get hot highlighted for that, but we are recording on Veterans Day and Remembrance Day, right, Emmy? That's going on ish now. So yeah, we're
Chad Sowash (07:01.163)
It's going deep.
Emi B (07:04.147)
I hope.
Chad Sowash (07:05.227)
Thank thank God we don't. Thank God we don't. Yeah. Thank you.
Emi B (07:07.694)
Thank you.
Chad Sowash (07:14.261)
Thank you. Appreciate it.
Emi B (07:19.022)
It is, it is. Remember it's Sunday. Yeah, I was in the supermarket today and I had my two minutes of silence and I was like, I actually forgot to be honest, I put my hands up and I forgot until I walked in. But I did my two minutes of silence alongside everyone else. So yeah.
Joel Cheesman (07:34.971)
Well what better way to to honor what better way to honor those who have served than shout outs?
Chad Sowash (07:35.357)
In the supermarket?
Emi B (07:36.75)
Yeah, in the supermarket. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (07:43.243)
yes.
Emi B (07:44.277)
Uh-uh.
Joel Cheesman (07:45.138)
All right, guys, I'm gonna go first. I'm I'm a little late on this one. I missed a couple October shows because my father and I we went in that last week. But but it's been a couple weeks since Halloween. but this one I came across really had me gobsmacked, as they say in the British, British Isles. So so shout out to Chavelle. Who the hell is Chevelle? I know that's what you're probably thinking. Yeah, it is it is a rock, it is a rock band. so Chevelle
Chad Sowash (07:48.148)
Okay.
Chad Sowash (08:01.491)
Mm.
Chad Sowash (08:07.403)
It's a rock band.
Chad Sowash (08:11.519)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (08:15.025)
Pulled up into a Burger King drive-thru, which who doesn't on occasion, and and pulled up to this.
Emi B (08:37.464)
jeez.
Emi B (08:56.319)
god.
Chad Sowash (08:59.507)
Joel Cheesman (08:59.693)
Okay, so for those that are on audio only, that was a Burger King employee in Blackface. this is this was this was not this was not the deep south. This was Minnesota, not really known for a lot of bad racism. But I just did a manager not see this? Did did did someone at her home go, Hey, no, what are you doing? Like what
Emi B (09:00.654)
you
Emi B (09:08.49)
in 2026.
Chad Sowash (09:09.984)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (09:29.327)
What are we what are we doing in 2026 that somebody can actually go to work and and do this? It's just it's it's incredible. So I've I thought it was a deep fake. It was not. I did a little research on this. it was legit. Burger came out Burger King came out with a with a announcement denouncing this. No word if she was fired, if the manager was like reprimanded or how this was handled, but they're they're educating everyone so that doesn't happen again. But I just
Emi B (09:36.462)
I think it's okay.
Joel Cheesman (09:58.416)
I couldn't believe in 2026 this shit happens. Like it and it it wasn't even like she's an angry white person. It was sort of like, I just don't know. And how is our how is our public school system failing so badly? They need Kennedy. They need Kennedy at the school system, educating them on what's going on. So anyway, so yeah, yeah. So anyway, anyway, I I don't know.
Emi B (10:07.458)
She just wants to be black. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (10:09.717)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (10:16.587)
Yes. no she would have fixed her. Kennedy would have fixed that chick. good God. Woof.
Emi B (10:17.302)
Joel Cheesman (10:25.167)
No word on what Chevelle ordered. Hopefully it was the new nuggets, which are delicious. But shout out to her for for capturing this and and shedding a light on so just ignorance. Total ignorance. Yeah. That's I don't know.
Emi B (10:31.064)
Yeah
Stupidity. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (10:35.211)
good God, horrible. Horrible. All right, dad I mean get us out of this.
Emi B (10:41.646)
Honestly, yeah, like we need to bring it back up. We need to bring it back up. So, okay, so I'll tell you who my shout out is. It's actually to the Finns. And I say Finns, I'm talking about actually Finnish dating. And yeah, now I'm not saying this applies to me. People from Finland. Yeah. So apparently, apparently if you are single now and if you're struggling, because I know what it's like out there, it's a hard, hard, hard dating pool out there.
Chad Sowash (10:47.915)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (10:54.961)
For American for Americans that's people from Finland. The Finnish the Finnish folk. The Finns. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (10:59.455)
Not dolphin fans, yes, no.
Joel Cheesman (11:10.001)
Girlfriend, preach.
Emi B (11:11.374)
Yeah, thank God. Luckily, I am sorted now. Fingers crossed. And it was a Beyonce. Put a ring on it, you know. So he does listen to the show. So that's why I'm putting it out there. Put the ring on it. But listen, if people are still struggling out there and you're finding that the pool is drying up, apparently, apparently.
Joel Cheesman (11:18.033)
Does does he listen to this show? Okay. All right. Dude, let's go.
Chad Sowash (11:22.917)
Stevie, put a ring on it.
Emi B (11:39.32)
Finland is the place to go. I had no idea. So this is my little tip for everyone out there. So have you got the video? Like, yeah. Yeah. Love it.
Joel Cheesman (11:44.987)
Yeah. This is the government, right? This is the government yeah, pitching for for single folks. Here we go. Finland.
Chad Sowash (11:47.477)
Show it.
Emi B (12:02.767)
Yeah.
Emi B (12:06.987)
Exactly.
Chad Sowash (12:07.241)
Ha ha
Emi B (12:24.718)
Ooh. Ooh.
Chad Sowash (12:30.995)
Mm.
Emi B (12:31.487)
You
Emi B (12:35.958)
And he's cool.
Joel Cheesman (12:36.005)
Sonas and cool people.
Emi B (12:43.672)
Do it, people. That is seductive.
Chad Sowash (12:45.747)
You your your ex would never, but a fin would. That's a good one. It's just stuck with that.
Joel Cheesman (12:47.633)
Mm-hmm.
Emi B (12:53.334)
Honestly, yeah, that is one tantalizing, seductive video. They've got Jaffling throwers. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, can you believe they actually put that out there? But I really wanna know. I really, really want people to do this and just ride into the show and just let us know.
Joel Cheesman (12:55.417)
I love I love how lakes. We we got lakes. We got lots of lakes here. Javelin throwers and heavy metal bands. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (12:58.995)
Yeah. Well, so does so does Minnesota and a and apparently they have they they have blackface too. It's just Jesus Christ. I'd rather go to Finland.
Joel Cheesman (13:12.337)
Shout out to Finland. Yeah, that's
Chad Sowash (13:12.95)
God.
Emi B (13:23.17)
Go to Finland, tell us what it's like. I need to know if works.
Chad Sowash (13:25.333)
Yeah. Not right now though, it's November in Finland. You might want to wait 'til spring or something like that.
Emi B (13:29.174)
No, but no, no, no, it's coffin season. This is the perfect season. Everyone wants to stay in and like kind of get all smugly. Yeah. No. Yeah. Comment single people. Get to Finland. Tell me about it. Never, never, ever, ever. Yeah. Yeah. really? Okay.
Joel Cheesman (13:35.665)
I'm gonna guess that Emmy has a lot more single friends than Chad and I do. So maybe you need to spread the word to your friends. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (13:35.892)
Okay.
Chad Sowash (13:39.496)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (13:46.118)
Have you have you guys been to Helsinki? Yeah, it's nice. It's nice. I yeah. It's we I was there in the summer where it's daylight for like all but an hour. and it's a party. Man, people are out like it's it's it's it's a good time. Yeah. Saunas and lots of drinks. I'm I'm down. No javelin, a lot of mosquitoes, as you go to the countryside. I ate rain I ate reindeer, had
Chad Sowash (13:48.715)
Mm mm. Nope.
Not not yet.
There you go. Yeah.
Emi B (13:59.662)
Emi B (14:05.752)
Did you see it? Yeah.
wow.
Joel Cheesman (14:16.421)
Yeah, what's the drink there? Shit, I'm I'm yeah. Anyway, sorry, what you got, Chad?
Chad Sowash (14:18.471)
I don't know. Moving on. Jesus Christ. Enough about Helsinki, you guys. Jeez fuck. All right. So we don't have enough Steven McGrath on this show, so I'm gonna let him do the shout-out.
Emi B (14:19.778)
HAHAHAHA
Emi B (14:27.232)
You
Joel Cheesman (14:29.409)
Okay. Just pass the buck to Steven.
Chad Sowash (15:36.779)
Called AI.
Emi B (16:14.747)
Wow.
Chad Sowash (16:14.805)
Yeah. So it it
Chad Sowash (16:21.109)
So when I first saw this, I thought, yeah, I mean, that maybe these companies are literally coming together to try to get above the noise because there are a lot of vendors that are out there, and that's just three of them. No, no, no, no. It's it looks like it was just noon AI trying to get themselves into the same categories, juice juice box and meta view, because juice box and metaview have a lot of money. So therefore it's like, hey, let's try to go ahead and streamline behind these guys. but as as
Joel Cheesman (16:29.457)
Mm-hmm.
Emi B (16:30.2)
Mm-hmm.
Emi B (16:43.246)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (16:48.165)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (16:51.019)
As Steven had said, there are a lot of TA leaders that are doing this without disclosure. And it seems to be to the tune of three hundred bucks. So is it worth it? You you think? Would you
Joel Cheesman (17:07.086)
I
Emi B (17:07.214)
It's so underhand. It's like, it's just, I can't believe this is actually the way the TA world is actually going now and people actually accepting that 300. And how they get in the way of it, obviously like, know, corporate policy, you can't accept it. That's a bribe. Wow. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (17:18.874)
Chad Sowash (17:23.081)
I mean if you're paying me direct, you don't know. Yeah. I mean it's not like you're going through my company.
Joel Cheesman (17:26.393)
I mean, look, geo look, Chad Chad and I do this to like we get paid to do this. now it's it's an ad format. We do a bump s you know, thing where we talk about a company and it's all on the up and up where we disclose like, hey, we're they're paying for this and like people know the rules of the road. unfortunately I mean that's more of a just professionalism than it is we have to.
now there are pretty strict rules around radio and traditional media about what is an ad and what isn't. There are less concrete like what is an ad and what's what's okay and what isn't. And for what my understanding is social media, like there's no law if Kim Kardashian goes on TikTok and says this is the best face cleanser on the planet, that she has to disclose, hey, this is an ad. Should she? Yeah, she probably does, just to be careful.
but traditionally companies go after influencers to talk about my product. So if if Tim Sackett says, hey, this ATS, like you kind of know that's Tim's thing. To go after TA leaders directly who aren't influencers or known for doing that that stuff, it's sort of a really interesting way to do it, but also get them in trouble if they're representing a company. Because if you're representing a company endorsing a product, like does your company is it
Are they at risk for that? So I I don't cheers to the company 'cause there's nothing illegal about it. But as a TA leader, should you be doing it? I think there's a ethical question.
Emi B (19:02.156)
Yeah, that's the thing is underhand. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (19:02.185)
Well, the the FTC just put something out though. The FTC put something out with regard to social media advertising and influencer endorsements where you have to provide disclosures. So it is something that can be I mean it it's gonna be hard to kind of like herd all of the influencer cats that are out there, no no doubt. And for three hundred bucks, is it really worth the FTC checking this out? No, I I think from the standpoint of ethics and and business ethics.
Joel Cheesman (19:05.627)
Yeah.
Emi B (19:10.414)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (19:10.501)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (19:32.101)
that's that's the big question. And you can see it all over LinkedIn. So go to LinkedIn and literally just search on Juice Box, MetaView, and Noon AI. All those together, group together, and you'll see posts that pop up that have shit tons of TA leaders that are actually doing this. So thought it was interesting.
Joel Cheesman (19:40.069)
Uh-huh.
Emi B (19:52.015)
But they're hurting their own personal brand because you know, like the way the world is going now, you're like, you know, you go to any conference, you go to a webinar, you're listening to a webinar, you want to hear from your peer, you want to hear from a practitioner, you're taking their word for it that those solutions are actually solving their real world problems. But then when you start finding out, you're actually getting paid to say this.
Chad Sowash (19:55.093)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (20:13.759)
Well, it's not just that they're getting paid that mu many of these people aren't even using the product. They might have tried a they might have tried a a a pilot or something of that nature, but they're not actually paying for the product. So it yeah, it's it's it is weird.
Emi B (20:19.022)
Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, you just.
Emi B (20:26.103)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (20:27.813)
Mm.
Emi B (20:29.13)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, no, I don't like it.
Joel Cheesman (20:30.331)
Does does does the FTC outline what disclosure means? Cause I don't think there's any hard rule like you have to provide this text or it has to say this or you have to
Chad Sowash (20:41.983)
I yeah, I don't th I I I think they just talk about disclosure, which just means you have to let people know that you're associated, just just in that case. So
Joel Cheesman (20:49.935)
Yeah. So like hashtag ad has been popular for a long time and for that maybe that's enough. yeah, I don't know. But clearly like the the the amount of dollars that are gonna go into influencers marketing products is only gonna get more. And there's ton of articles and marketing public, you know, publications that write about this, but this is only gonna be more of a thing that businesses do approach people that have a network and say, promote our shit.
Emi B (20:56.078)
Mmm.
Chad Sowash (20:56.438)
yeah. could be. Could be, yeah, could be.
Chad Sowash (21:06.069)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (21:15.304)
yeah.
Chad Sowash (21:18.591)
Well, and I'm telling right now, the let's say Q four of this year, starting in Q four of this year, we've had more incoming leads for the podcast than we had for the rest of the year. And I think a lot of that has to do with midterms and and companies literally have been kind of like saving up money waiting for the chaos to go to to go away. But yeah, there's gonna be a lot more of this. I mean, there's gonna be a lot more of this.
Joel Cheesman (21:39.568)
Yep.
Joel Cheesman (21:43.877)
Yeah. Yep. A lot more. flockety in our space, we know, basically get paid for promoting jobs and what's going on. And you get so yeah, this is yeah, it's only gonna get more pervasive in our space. Almost as pervasive, Chad, as
Chad Sowash (21:49.23)
yeah.
Chad Sowash (21:52.489)
Yeah. And influencers, yeah.
Emi B (21:59.361)
I it.
Chad Sowash (22:03.422)
yeah.
Joel Cheesman (22:04.646)
How I'm climbing the rankings, climbing the leaderboard in fantasy football. That's right. Week nine is in the books, people. Special thanks to our sponsor, Factory Fix, for sponsoring our unhealthy habit of fantasy football. We're going to do it differently this week. We're going to go from worst to first. We're going to end on a solid note. So so down in the basement here, we have Desiree Gone Girl Goldie, who has yet to win. Who has yet to win. Maybe this week is the week. Followed by Molly the Marauder Sly.
Chad Sowash (22:09.72)
Mm, good job.
Emi B (22:27.118)
again.
Chad Sowash (22:28.581)
yeah.
Joel Cheesman (22:34.489)
Nick, how you how you living, Stun? Mackenzie Mad Dog Maitland, hanging Chad Sowash in the eighth spot, just right in the middle, not showing off. number seven, we got Bosco Buya, Vuyatovich, Rajan Dejan Amari, great Scott Clark, Saint Nicholas Tyshak, Joel, your boy, cheesy does it, cheeseman, breaking Benjamin Kunz, and still number one.
Chad Sowash (22:34.731)
Still.
Emi B (22:34.798)
Come on,
Chad Sowash (22:37.924)
Ha ha
Joel Cheesman (23:02.895)
Jarrett the Joker, Joel Dersma. That's right. That is your fantasy football leaderboard, sponsored by our friends at Factory Fix. You guys.
Chad Sowash (23:12.619)
And you're lucky and and you're welcome because I lo I knocked Scott, who was in number two, down to number five.
Joel Cheesman (23:19.407)
Yeah. Well, yeah, thank you for that. And I think I have him this week, so we'll see. We'll see how that goes. you guys doing any any holiday travel, guys? I know business is over, but any holiday stuff? Okay.
Emi B (23:19.864)
bad week.
Chad Sowash (23:25.799)
Okay. Okay. Depends on the bye week.
Chad Sowash (23:32.883)
Not until Christmas. Not until Christmas slash New Year's Eve going to San Diego.
Emi B (23:37.826)
Not until next year. I've got my cousin coming over from New York. I am, yeah, so she's spending Christmas with me. So that'd be nice. So next year, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (23:38.128)
nice.
Chad Sowash (23:41.535)
Nice.
Joel Cheesman (23:46.555)
Very, very nice. Well let's get to topic, shall we?
Chad Sowash (23:50.729)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (23:55.238)
Guys, you know our topics are sponsored by Proven Base. You love free bourbon? I know I do. how about two bottles instead of one? That's right. You get a bottle from Chad and one from from me. You gotta go to Chadcheese.com slash free to get your bottle of bourbon. Special thanks to Proven Base for letting us share the cock.
Chad Sowash (24:01.365)
Hell yeah.
Emi B (24:16.374)
I was going to say me too, but I was like no.
Chad Sowash (24:18.367)
My favorite thing to do.
Joel Cheesman (24:19.929)
All right, let's let's get let's get to some let's get to some I don't know where to go with that one. Yeah, let's get let's get to the news, everybody, and money is flowing. Dollar dollar bill, y'all. AI training and evaluation company Mercor has just raised seven hundred and fifty million dollars in a series D at a twenty billion dollar valuation that doubles its valuation from the ten billion it reached.
Chad Sowash (24:21.854)
Uh-huh.
Chad Sowash (24:30.09)
Here we go.
Chad Sowash (24:34.827)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (24:48.229)
Back in October of 2025. And for things I did not have on my bingo card, Chad, ZipRecruiters Q3 revenue rose eight percent with five point one million net income and seventeen percent adjusted. EBITA paid employers grew 10% and fill year guidance raised to five four to five percent growth. The stock, get this rocketed to a 50% increase on the news.
Cash rules everything around me. Chad, your thoughts on Mercor's Rays and ZipRecruiter's Rocket?
Chad Sowash (25:23.383)
So Mercor again for me, this is literally people getting paid peanuts to train not only their replacement, but entire industries. And and I totally get it. You know, somebody's gonna do it. So why not take the money and run? Right. no matter how little the piece of that pie is. Just go ahead and take what what's there. but let me put this into perspective.
Emi B (25:37.806)
Mm.
Chad Sowash (25:47.55)
On the site, it says a sales and marketing expert can be paid $60 $70 per hour, which sounds great, but it's not a full-time job, which means you're not getting 40 hours a week at $70 an hour. And even if you did, that's only $11,200 a month. And any expert salesperson who's excited about $11,000 a month is not an expert salesperson at all. Plus
How many do you think, you know, how how long do you think the contract is actually gonna last? It's not gonna be a year. And when you have bestowed all of your knowledge into this model, what exactly are you good for then? You're not, right? And from a scale standpoint, you literally just made an industry of your fellow salespeople good for nothing. So for a measly 11K.
A month, good for you, right? And and and we're gonna talk about it more later, but you have to remember that CEOs all over the world are trying their damnedest to get rid of headcount by scaling AI. So will this happen in 2027? I would say that, you know, it's gonna take a couple of years, but at this rate and the rate that the models are actually traveling, which is much faster than what they're used to, could actually be months for so for some for some jobs and some tasks.
Joel Cheesman (26:58.801)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (27:10.188)
but when it comes to MariCorps, I mean, I'm sure the AI models and the founders' bank accounts are just going to enjoy the hell out of these cash infusions. And
Emi B (27:18.018)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (27:23.155)
When it comes to zip recruiter, I mean, the Ian Siegel attributed the re the the primary results to product improvements designed to increase conversations between employers and job seekers, which to me is just code for saying hiring companies want to do everything they possibly can not to use Indeed because they fucking hate Indeed. and then and then they've got this this be seen thing, right? for job seekers.
Joel Cheesman (27:44.508)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (27:50.855)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (27:52.074)
Well, we all know that everybody's using like AI to apply for jobs. So if you're not first, you're last, as Ricky Bobby would say, right? So at this point, if you're not using B scene, you're probably not gonna get any responses whatsoever. So nine percent of the job seekers are using it. I would say that you will see more of this, and that's gonna push revenues up just in desperate situations.
Joel Cheesman (28:01.584)
Mm-hmm.
Emi B (28:13.225)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (28:13.478)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (28:18.237)
zip recruiter is gonna take advantage of job seekers. And that's what's happening. It's a cash grab. It's a cash grab all the way around for AI training and B scene job seeker cash grab.
Joel Cheesman (28:29.147)
Uh-huh.
Chad Sowash (28:34.249)
They are.
Joel Cheesman (28:35.142)
Mercor is just fascinating. so Mercore handshake, these companies have pivoted from their original models to basically provide in intelligence to all the LLMs and and AI companies. It it's the ultimate picks and shovels story. if you're not familiar with the eighteen forty-nine gold rush in California, where people went to San Francisco to to look for gold, the the people who really
Emi B (28:35.246)
Unfortunately.
Chad Sowash (28:39.633)
It is What a pivot.
Chad Sowash (28:57.29)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (29:03.526)
benefited from it was like Levi's who made jeans for the the gold miners and the people who made picks and shovels and sold them. And then when the gold was gone or not found, everyone went home and the people who had large bank accounts were these guys. Now I I don't know that Mercor is going to be that the big the big winner, but they are certainly benefiting from the AI gold rush that's going on. Anthropic is about to go public.
They have decreased sort of their initial expectation for what they're gonna raise in the public markets. I don't know if that'll drip down into everybody, including Mercor. it's also it's sort of like you you look at Apple, Apple is really benefited by not getting knee deep into the AI race and spending a ton of money to compete, but they're they're benefiting from it because of their own technology and people filling those gaps in. So for now, it's a hell of a deal.
Emi B (29:56.302)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (29:59.245)
as long as the AI money flows, as long as these companies keep spending tons of money, they need this data to be able to have a better, a better model than everyone else. the interesting thing that Mercor is doing now, it seems like, is they want to take that model to the enterprise level. So they want to go to a large company and say, hey, we've already like taken data from a PhD that knows, you know, forensics. Now let's take your
your customer or your your employees, let's take their what they're doing, track that, learn from it, and then have your own sort of little Mercore LLM to to benefit from. So we're we've seen companies start to get into the space. that could be a huge business for them. They they gotta go public at some point. Once Anthropic goes, the other big ones will go and then these these as yeah, these, these other businesses will go. But for now, the money is really good. I
Chad Sowash (30:48.159)
Yes. They'll wait.
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (30:55.184)
I agree with Chad. There's it's gonna run out at some point. At some point, either we know everything that we can know from everybody, or yeah, at some point the the party ends and the lights go on and and the cockroaches scatter. But until then, it let the good times roll. and speaking of good times roll, ZipRecruiter, holy cow, after hitting, you know, 200 like historic lows last year, these guys have found out the recipe to get it done.
Emi B (31:14.594)
you
Joel Cheesman (31:22.982)
Now wanna I wanna remind you, Chad, of my t one of my 2026 predictions was that ZipRecruiter would hit ten dollars a share. I think it was around three dollars when I made that prediction. So I'm well on my way to finally get a prediction right, which feels which feels pretty good. I just I need it I needed to go full AMC and GameStop to really make that happen. But basically a few things are happening here. One is like better search, which is they've put Phil to bed.
Emi B (31:34.941)
Yeah?
Joel Cheesman (31:52.029)
They've gone back to basics. They've integrated AI tools to make the the searches better, the recommended jobs better. they've cut their RND, they've they've cut headcount on like on that end. Chat GPT is is nearly double their traffic from from from advertising sources. their cost discipline has really driven this.
Let's call it financial engineering. But to their, to their, to their credit, they've cut all the sort of the RD stuff, the Phil stuff. They've gone back to basics. They've cut headcount. they recently lost their CMO, who had been there for a decade. so they're cutting sort of the executive suite and cutting costs there. So is this a
Emi B (32:24.631)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (32:47.066)
Is this a high growth story? Is this a an innovation story where we should be in awe of ZipRecruiter? No. They've been able to engineer, they've plugged in AI, they've gotten rid of their own RD. So they're relying on like open AI and that technology. And they've engineered to cut headcount and cut costs. And their stock is benefiting from it. They've gotten two or three upgrades from analysts. So I I this thing's gonna run for a little bit throughout the throughout the end of the year.
Emi B (32:54.04)
No, no.
Joel Cheesman (33:15.622)
Congratulations to ZipRecruiter.
Chad Sowash (33:16.255)
What when you're in a toilet, when you're in the in the toilet, getting an upgrade's not that big of a deal.
Emi B (33:17.424)
Hahaha
Joel Cheesman (33:21.318)
Good fi yeah, fifty percent increase. but hey, it's
Emi B (33:25.322)
It's something.
Joel Cheesman (33:27.244)
It's yeah, it's be be seen first aca apparently is paying paying dividends. Emmy, your thoughts?
Emi B (33:30.553)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (33:31.795)
That's that's right. That's right. I mean you ready to buy some zip recuter?
Emi B (33:37.282)
Die.
Chad Sowash (33:41.908)
No.
Emi B (33:43.529)
I mean, look, I agree with both of you. Zip recruits have, they could only go up. They were so far down there. That was the only way to actually go. And I'm with you. I never expected these earnings. I never expected them to turn things around. But I don't think, like you said, I don't think it's like, an impressive story. It's a stabilizing story. They've done the right things. Obviously, I'm going to say that they've probably been listening to you two.
And that hearing what you two have been saying about as they've recruited. No, of course. Like I said, industry veterans, you know, they're probably sat there, took their notepad out and said, what is Joe and Chad saying? I need, we need to go back to basics and they have, and it has actually worked. How long will it work for? I don't know. You know, have they, have they also spent a lot of money? Yeah, they spent a huge amount still on sales and marketing to kind of get where they are. So I think it's just a case of like, can they keep doing this quarter by quarter? Can they still maintain?
Joel Cheesman (34:13.648)
stop.
Emi B (34:41.634)
the kind of upward trajectory that they're on at the moment. I'm not massively convinced, but let's see.
Joel Cheesman (34:47.29)
I I think Chad, your point of of everyone hates indeed is a good one. I think people are looking for alternatives. And also think we've we've been talking about the programmatic and decline of the programmatic solutions for a while. And I think a lot of people that were soured on programmatic have said, let's try ZipRecruiter again. And ZipRecruiter has done a good job of luring those people back to ZipRecruiter. I think. So it's kind of a it's programmatic decline, ZipRecruiter benefits from that.
Chad Sowash (34:54.165)
Mm.
Chad Sowash (35:00.595)
Margins.
Chad Sowash (35:16.587)
Yeah, we'll talk a little bit about that in the industry roundup later.
Joel Cheesman (35:20.518)
You're such a tease, man. I just I don't such a such a tease. Such a tease. All right, guys. We'll we'll be right back. if you're not following us on your favorite podcast platform of choice, please do so and leave us a review. We'd love we'd love you long time if you did that.
Emi B (35:22.286)
You're teasing me!
Chad Sowash (35:22.568)
I know. You're welcome. You're welcome.
Chad Sowash (35:33.941)
What's your problem?
Emi B (35:35.31)
dear.
Joel Cheesman (35:43.911)
Now for something way less optimistic. The tale of two economies marches on, everybody. Amazon continues corporate cuts, nearly 1,300 in October, and another 95 around the Seattle metro area. Canva is cutting over 1,200 people, representing 22% of its staff. Virgin Media now plans to make thousands of job cuts for 800 million pounds in savings amid debt restructuring. PepsiCo is eliminating a thousand people in North America.
Chad Sowash (35:46.515)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (36:13.916)
To simplify amid soft demand. But wait, there's more. Recent US grads face 42.5% underemployment despite a 5.2 unemployment rate. And UK job satisfaction, talking to you, Emmy, hit a record low of 74% with less willingness to work. Happy, happy Joy Joy, Chad. Your thoughts on the tale of two economies.
Chad Sowash (36:36.789)
Ha ha. Let's go with my favorite company first, Amazon. So from the article, quote, the company has repeatedly said the restructuring is intended to reduce management layers, improve efficiency, and allow teams to move faster. End quote. Okay, so it's really hard for me to understand the management bloat that happens at some of these large organizations. I can see
Departmental bloat like sysadmin, let's say, getting laid off because we have stopped buying, you know, physical servers and we've moved to the cloud. But layered management bloat throughout the actual organization, the entire organization is purely mismanagement from the top. The CEO, CFO, and C O O, they should be constantly managing how the company is organized and managed and saying.
quote, improve efficiency and allow teams to move faster. Isn't that your every fucking day job? Why did it take I mean how does it take this cr incredible bloat across the entire organization for to go, yeah, I forgot our job was to be more efficient and allow teams to move faster so we can make fucking money. These guys drive me fucking crazy. Then you have Virgin Media, who in some cases in the UK are a monopoly because
Some Brits don't have a choice. They either have virgin broadband or they don't. And then guess what happens? The company feels like, you know, we don't need to upgrade anymore. And we're just gonna start cutting cutting jobs by what 30% of its workforce. I that is that to me does not instill any confidence whatsoever in a company. And if I do have a choice, I'm not buying fucking virgin media.
Joel Cheesman (38:16.561)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (38:30.527)
That's it's crazy. And last but not least, this is Joel's favorite, the get off my lawn piece. how can how how can Gen Z not be pissed? I mean, seriously. I I'm that's what I'm saying. How can how can they not? That's what I'm saying. They have to be pissed. I mean, when you go to college and you work a part-time job at Starbucks and Walmart and you're still living with mom and dad, I mean, give me a fucking break, dude. I mean, it it
Joel Cheesman (38:42.076)
They are pissed. Hello election.
Emi B (38:42.914)
They are. Yeah, he said that. Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (38:48.69)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (39:00.127)
To me, you can see if you take a look at the actual voting stats for the midterms, midterms in the US, every single state in the lower demographic voted blue. They just want fucking change and they want it now. And I can understand that. And I fucking get it. So yeah, that's that's all I got, guys. I'm I'm done. I'm gonna breathe now. And can can I can I get another I I need another Guinness. I need a I need another, I need another Guinness.
Emi B (39:15.502)
Mm.
Emi B (39:21.6)
You okay? Yeah. Yeah. He needs a breather. He needs something to calm him down.
Joel Cheesman (39:24.102)
Ever
Joel Cheesman (39:30.15)
Yeah, and the the Gen Z serving Starbucks has a PhD in anthropology, right? Like that's so so definitely doing what they they should be doing. I mean, the the formula seems to be basically geopolitically governmental insanity and chaos. We don't really know what we're gonna do. So we're gonna stand pat. We're not gonna hire fire, we're gonna create more efficiencies by investing in AI and capital to to generate more output.
Emi B (39:34.769)
Honestly.
Chad Sowash (39:35.069)
Yes Ugh Whew
Joel Cheesman (39:59.793)
with the existing staff as we continue to like l get leaner and leaner on the headcount because we're spending more on AI and can't afford all these people anymore. And that seems to be the the recipe that companies are engaged in.
They're cautious about permanent hiring because they they know that like Amazon, the bots are here, but more are coming. So how do you balance more bots, fewer people? Because these layoffs aren't happening in one big chunk. They're happening in drips for a lot of these companies. And as as the automation happens, we're gonna lay more people off. We're gonna figure out if it works or not. Yeah, it works. So more and more people. And that's what we're seeing across more and more companies. And I think it's gonna
Emi B (40:33.006)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (40:46.886)
continue to filter down into the companies that aren't Amazon or high tech companies. And we're going to see it more in in in blue collar maybe jobs going forward. What's really intriguing to me is the Canva example because Canva is a company, if if we look in our own space, it's like Textio. Basically Canva helps you make images. Well you know what else helps you make images and movies and logos and everything else? Well AI. AI does that shit. So now
Emi B (41:07.329)
Yeah.
Emi B (41:14.058)
AI.
Chad Sowash (41:15.987)
Yes, and better.
Joel Cheesman (41:16.772)
It's like our product is foobar because AI does everything that we do. Now, what the hell do we do now? Well, let's cut off let's cut a fourth of our staff and maybe try to figure it out. Textio was like, let's cut a bunch of people and then like let's totally pivot and create a whole different company. I don't think that's going very well, but we haven't talked about them in a while. So yeah, the so and then you have, you know, yeah, the kids are employed, but they're underemployed.
Emi B (41:19.15)
Mm-hmm.
Emi B (41:34.69)
Mmm.
Chad Sowash (41:35.785)
Lavalier. no. No.
Joel Cheesman (41:43.621)
And they're working jobs that they're not, you know, trained to do because they need a job and they have to make money. And yeah, they're pissed off. And the election was, you know, number one in terms of why they're pissed off. And if you know, the Democrats don't fix it, they'll swing again to the other side. But that's that's kind of the world that we're that we're living in.
Emi B (42:02.447)
Let's keep our fingers crossed they do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing is all of this is depressing. I mean, unfortunately, and what is that Guinness? I mean, what I don't like about this. hello. What it it reminds me. Well, it just kind of is a reminder for me that we're in a world where organizations are putting profit.
Chad Sowash (42:03.99)
Fix the shit. Yes. Emmy?
Chad Sowash (42:10.985)
This is not though. Look at this. Ooh.
Joel Cheesman (42:12.603)
Emi B (42:29.13)
ahead of people. And I understand that, you know, to some extent, you know, obviously, organizations are there, they're not charities, they're there to make money, they're there to like increase their bottom line. But I feel like it's the kind of humanity is actually disappearing. People are just forgetting about the people who actually involved in this. So if you take obviously a company like Amazon, you know, yeah, you're right, this is Amazon, they should have their shit together. But
Chad Sowash (42:31.168)
Yes.
Emi B (42:56.674)
they've been making redundancies upon redundancies upon redundancies. And at the moment, what they're just announcing that they've got record margins. So you got record margins, you're making a shitload of money, but yet at exactly the same time, you're getting rid of loads of people. So why is that? What is that you going wrong? Yeah, that yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, you know.
Chad Sowash (43:15.317)
Good for the shareholders, not good for society. Not good for society.
Joel Cheesman (43:16.742)
They know exactly what they're doing. Amazon knows exactly what they're doing. Yeah.
Emi B (43:21.794)
They'll put a spin out some kind of like PR bullshit and saying, there's nothing to do with AI, but you're investing so much money into the AI side of things. So people know, people are not stupid. You you're replacing people's jobs, you know, almost the same with Virgin Media that we obviously we just talked about. I suppose the slight difference with Virgin Media is that they got a huge amount of debt that Amazon doesn't have. So maybe they're having to make the cuts for, you know, to be stable. Maybe they have no actual choice.
So, but again, it's a case of how did you get to this stage? You're putting profit over people. And then we look at the grads. Grad, like you said, back in the day, everyone was like, especially in the UK, it was like, go to university, get a good job, you'll be set up for life. That hasn't been the case for ages. It hasn't been the case. And you graduate, you're in debt, you can't get a job that's actually degree worthy. Then you think, hold on, why did I just spend three, four years at university?
And then even if they do manage to get a job, like I said, it might not be degree worthy, but then it's still hard to get those jobs because you've got organizations thinking short term and again, Hey, we've got AI. can just automate that job. So we don't need as many entry level people, but the focus by doing that, what's going to happen in five years time? Where's your talent pipeline? Where's your middle managers who are going to go into a senior management role. If you're not bringing people, no, they're not. They're just thinking short term.
Chad Sowash (44:46.343)
I'm not thinking like that.
Quarter by quarter. Quarter by quarter.
Emi B (44:50.604)
We don't need to, yeah, we don't need people now.
Joel Cheesman (44:51.558)
What they're what they're thinking is how long before co pilot becomes autopilot? How long before the people that are left can train the AI to the point where they make themselves, yeah, disposable? Yeah, Mercore. Yeah, that's
Emi B (44:57.238)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (44:57.739)
Mm-hmm.
Emi B (45:02.466)
to do the job. Yeah, exactly. And then of course, like you said, we talked about UK job satisfaction decreasing. Well, if you're in a situation where you're just having to take any old job just so you can pay the bills, then are you gonna be happy in your job? No. You have to pay the bills. You need to eat. You're staying at your parents' house for how many years. So it's a whole kind of vicious.
Chad Sowash (45:03.913)
Mare Cor. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (45:27.761)
Mm-hmm.
Emi B (45:31.338)
circle, which again, like I said, is all about organisations prioritising profit over people, thinking to short term thinking that AI is going to solve everything. And it's like, well, let's see what's going to happen in five years time, you know, 10 years time. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (45:46.866)
Time time to get that eighty bucks an hour from Mercor, Chad. Time to time to call Mercor for a little cash.
All right, gang, let's get to some industry news. some moving and shaking going on. Seakout named co-founder John Tippett, president, to lead day-to-day ops with CEO Aravind Bala shifting toward AI coworkers. Talroo is moving its Austin headquarters to a 10,000 square foot space at one uptown in December of this year. Monster.com founder Jeff Taylor is looking to raise more money for his startup Boom Band after raising 4.6 million in seed.
Chad Sowash (46:14.741)
Who hello?
Joel Cheesman (46:25.18)
For its AI talent marketplace. Chad, what industry news this week stood out to you?
Chad Sowash (46:32.465)
All did, but I mean Seakout's. I've got to take a look at Seakout's new leadership, which is it really necessary. I hated to see a noob go, but we're in a different era and some big changes need to be made quickly. And let me step back and set the table for the answer of why big changes are a necessity. So back in April of 2023, we had an episode entitled, You just talked about
Textio is Toast, which pretty much laid out how big LLMs like ChatGBT were going to kill companies like Textio. Well, back in 2023, companies like Seakout were also in danger because more powerful platforms like ChatGBT, Claude, and Gemini could provide new startups with more powerful models right off the shelf. So Textio and Seakout, they were launched in 2014 and 2018, and their price points were high.
Emi B (47:29.422)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (47:29.575)
Very high, mainly because the tech was expensive, which was a great moat for those vendors. Now, to get into the game, you had to have tons of inst institutional knowledge and cash. But now younger competitors are coming in almost as pretty much powerful and cheaper, which puts vendors like Seakout in a pinch. Do they use the new LLMs and re-engineer their product? Well, of course, yes. Will Seakout
Lower their prices. Well, that's the conundrum. Because if you have a pro a portfolio of customers, which you've built since 2018, you have an established ARR. So are you going to cut that ARR in half? You can't go back to the board and say, we're dropping prices so that you know we could stay competitive. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (48:06.63)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (48:21.274)
Investors don't want to hear that. I gave you a hundred million dollars. Like I don't wanna hear price cuts.
Chad Sowash (48:25.867)
But the newer platforms, if you don't do that, are gonna eat your lunch. So you've got to drop prices and you gotta stop, you gotta stay competitive. And you know, that's only something that new leadership can do. So the question is, will they have the backbone to do it? Of course. They will try to implement different pricing models, but when the bill comes due, the new competitors are still gonna be half the price of Seek Out. And that's that's the hard part for them.
Joel Cheesman (48:29.468)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emi B (48:55.79)
Mm.
Chad Sowash (48:55.923)
Are they going to switch? I mean, you're in a pricing model. You're you're you're you're stuck in that because you've been in it for, you know, almost a decade, for God's sakes. What are you gonna do? then you were talking about programmatic earlier. one of the things I love about what Tauru's done, and just you know, to to make sure we have disclosure here, sponsor of the show, sponsor of the show, Tao Room. I I love to see Bruce Ghee and the Tao Room team, you know, moving on up like the Jeffersons.
Joel Cheesman (49:15.378)
Sponsor.
Emi B (49:17.826)
Chad Sowash (49:23.709)
I I also love seeing vendors creating products that focus on asking questions to qualify candidates instead of just fucking clicks, instead of just sending candidates through, right? So to be able to provide qualified candidates versus kind of like separating the wheat from the chaff, which is exactly what they're doing. And they've been doing that very well on the frontline side of the house. my two cents on Boom Band is that I love.
That Jeff Taylor is back in the game. He is such a character. And I think that he he's he's a good character for for the industry. but the game has changed so much, the old tricks just aren't going to work. I see he's going for an Airbnb kind of like experience with Boom Ban, but Airbnb was launched in 2008. So the user experience feels like it's over engineered for job search and
Joel Cheesman (50:08.05)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (50:16.316)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (50:21.183)
He he really has to think about a new wave of how you become a product in this in in this space instead of trying to be a destination. Cause I don't think that boom band can be a destination. So
Chad Sowash (50:38.665)
Love you, Jeff. I just don't think it's that's the answer, man.
Joel Cheesman (50:40.186)
yeah, I I love yeah, your your comment about Jeff. so first of all, s speaking of listening to us, Emmy, I made a comment recently about Jeff having like headphones on in his LinkedIn profile picture. And I was like, What are you, podcast guy? Are you CEO? What's so I'm I'm happy to say that maybe he listened and that picture is gone. He's got sort of a general picture. But yeah, he's he's like the fun guy. this is a picture from his LinkedIn profile. He's at a college talking
Chad Sowash (50:53.577)
No.
Emi B (50:54.83)
Is it down now? Yeah? Okay. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (51:04.554)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (51:09.948)
For whatever reason, kids have their shoes off. yeah, which which can't smell great, but whatever. but it it to me, yeah, he he just celebrated his 66th birthday, I think. He he talked about that on LinkedIn as well. when Trump I hate to make this parallel with Jeff, but so when Trump made his final pitch to the American people, he went in front of the reflecting pool and he talked about cock.
Chad Sowash (51:11.753)
He's a good guy. He's a real good guy. Yeah.
Emi B (51:12.782)
Okay.
Chad Sowash (51:16.34)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Sowash (51:26.987)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (51:39.923)
And like how he how he's repaired and how he built this thing. And what I noticed was like Trump Trump fell back into what he knew, what he was comfortable with, what you know, it wasn't like all this other stuff. He fell back into what was what was comfortable. And what I'm seeing with Jeff is a guy falling back into what he's comfortable with. He's he's doing the New England thing, he's going to colleges, he's putting on the show.
Chad Sowash (51:45.587)
You love the cock.
Emi B (51:46.786)
Ha
Chad Sowash (52:02.817)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (52:09.008)
You know, and and I think that he's he still wants to be part of the game, even though if we're being intellectually honest, boom band is not the next thing, right? It's just it's just not. But if it gives Jeff the vehicle to be like at a Red Sox game when someone goes, Hey, it's the monster guy, or it's it's that crazy guy that took his shoe off on campus, like that's what is probably gonna make him, you know, happy. He's raising more money. I don't know what it you know, like
Chad Sowash (52:10.771)
It feels good. Yeah.
Emi B (52:17.941)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (52:38.064)
More New England stuff. I like it's just weird today to launch something like it's Groupon and say, we're just in the Chicago Metro. Like, you gotta launch this shit big time. And it just feels like a a lifestyle thing for Jeff that he can live the the you know the final decade of his life in the workforce doing the thing and being in the spotlight. So anyway, congratulations, Jeff. I hope you could I hope you can make this boom bam thing huge, but at present I don't see it.
Emi B (52:59.5)
rise out the last couple of years.
Joel Cheesman (53:07.068)
But love would love that you found some new life. Tauru, they wanna put a they wanna sugarcoat this as like we're moving up, we're getting a cool new office space. It literally has a pool in this this office building. it's so it's like, yeah, it's like it's like Austin, Texas. We got a pool. Somebody somebody orders orders some water burgers and torchies and we're gonna have a good time. so I think that's part of it, obviously recruiting folks, but
Chad Sowash (53:19.851)
what I'm talking about. Bruce, we're coming. We're coming, Bruce. It's blue now. So yeah, why not?
Chad Sowash (53:32.469)
Good go. Good go.
Joel Cheesman (53:35.802)
So honestly, a lot of these real estate deals come down to the lease was up, the landlord's an asshole. look, they were literally within walking distance of Indeed's offices and headquarters for a long time. So, like to to get away from that probably was appealing. Like it could be as simple as we just needed a change of of scenery and the lease was out. But hey, man, it's got a pool. it's next to some shopping.
Chad Sowash (53:48.625)
I remember, yeah.
Emi B (53:59.936)
It's a sexy office.
Joel Cheesman (54:01.245)
We're going to get us a Hermes bag. We're going to get us some some Papacitos and have a good time at the Tao Ru HQ. As far as Seakout goes, nobody wanted this job. Like, nobody wants, they could not recruit someone from the outside to take this job. Nope. They couldn't call Microsoft or Amazon, like Anoop. Those guys are all connected. They landed on the people that were already there, which tells you like.
Emi B (54:14.562)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (54:30.202)
What are they do what are we doing? You know, what are we doing? What are we doing? I don't know. Seek out is a rudderless ship. they need to get somebody from the outside with a fresh vision. Cause if they just if they're just pulling in people, if they're just recycling the leaders that are already there, like, what are we doing? Yeah. What are we doing?
Chad Sowash (54:46.389)
Yeah, they're fucked. Yeah.
Emi B (54:48.6)
Harsh. Do you not believe in internal mobility? Promote from within?
Chad Sowash (54:54.399)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (54:55.25)
Ha ha ha.
Emi B (54:57.558)
No, not in this case. I mean, from my point of view, I think out the three pieces of news. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (54:59.637)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (55:05.712)
I mean, it's like you're you're a sports team and the head coach leaves and you just put the assistant coach in their place. Like what are we doing? What it it's the same
Emi B (55:13.44)
Maybe the assistant coach is supposed to be the best person for the job.
Joel Cheesman (55:16.784)
Are you inspired as a if as as a player to be like, we got rid of the coach, which is the assistant coach now? Like what what inspiration? All right. Maybe it'll work out. I don't know. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Emi B (55:24.142)
That's happened to me before. Maybe, yeah. I mean, to be honest, out of the three, like I said, Seek Out is the one that kind of stood out a little bit more. Maybe it's because I used Seek Out for a little while when I came here. But we no longer use Seek Out. And there's a reason for it. Yeah, there is a reason for it. There are better tools.
Chad Sowash (55:28.682)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (55:38.581)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (55:44.233)
And there's a reason, yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (55:47.814)
Now that they've recycled some executives, we're back in. We're back in, baby.
Emi B (55:51.311)
The executive was in a different role and don't forget he came from Microsoft as well. He was there for 18 years. So maybe he can bring something new. But they do need to change because all these point solutions, like obviously you mentioned Txio, they have to pivot. They're not going to be around forever. They have to be a more of a enterprise-wide destination platform, more than one feature because they won't survive in this market. So let's see.
Chad Sowash (55:51.515)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (56:05.139)
Mm-hmm.
Emi B (56:19.03)
You know, maybe he's the breath of fresh air that, you know, seek out needs, maybe the investment that they're making into the agentic AI capabilities. Maybe he's the one who's going to drive it forward. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but it has to be something better than, than what they currently have.
Chad Sowash (56:37.905)
Mm. Yes.
Emi B (56:40.022)
Yeah, and then maybe I'll try again. You never know. Maybe I'll keep seek out another chance.
Chad Sowash (56:45.995)
well
Joel Cheesman (56:46.418)
Well speaking of change guys, let's take a quick break. We'll play a little who'd you rather? Now we're talking about some change.
Emi B (56:48.311)
Chad Sowash (56:51.209)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (56:57.232)
All right, guys. It's one of my favorite games. I don't know about you guys, but let's play a little Hood You Rather. That's right. If you've never heard us play this before, we talk about two companies, startups that have recently gotten some cash. I read a summary and the coasts say who they'd rather out of the two companies. I'll let you figure out what who'd you rather actually means, baby. All right, first up.
Chad Sowash (57:05.835)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (57:24.25)
Reality Bytes. That's right. Bytes, an AI-powered frontline employee training platform, has raised 40 million in a Series A, bringing its total funding to $55 million. The platform delivers short video-based training directly to deskless workers through existing communication channels like WhatsApp, SMS, and Slack. That is Bytes. And in this corner, we have Rocker. Rocker has raised $12.85 million.
million dollars founded last year by former Google and Stripe leaders. The startup builds a proactive AI work assistant coordinate to coordinate product projects, decisions, and workflows across organizations. Investors include the likes of Anthropic and Stripe. That is Rocker. So Chad, Rocker versus Bites. Who you got? Hmm
Chad Sowash (57:58.315)
Mm.
Emi B (58:13.858)
Mmmmm
Chad Sowash (58:14.067)
Duh.
Chad Sowash (58:19.711)
So two AM, two AM in the morning at the bar, drinking my last Guinness. Who am I going home with?
So rocker is just a basic bitch. I mean, there's so many, so many of these rockers around. There's so many assistants. There are a dime a dozen. They're all over the place. I totally get it. But bites, that's some sexy shit. We literally just talked to Dr. Stephanie Larson yesterday, a principal analyst over at Ceramount, about AI's value breakdown. And one of the biggest takeaways for me was how quickly AI was forcing hiring companies to evolve their learning and development.
Joel Cheesman (58:42.384)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (58:58.175)
Programs. A vendor like Bytes could digest your training documents in PowerPoints, spit out snackable training videos. So instead of throwing a training manual or a shitty PowerPoint at employees for onboarding or new product training, sales or whatever, you can send them a link to a series of short training videos. So whenever I need to learn how to do something, I don't go to Google to, you know.
look for a manual, right? I don't search for manuals. No, no, I go to YouTube and I look for the videos. And it might sound kinky, but I'm going with I'm going home with bites.
Joel Cheesman (59:28.39)
Read it.
Chad Sowash (59:43.883)
That's right, baby.
Joel Cheesman (59:44.014)
All right, reality bites again, baby. Bite me where you all right, so little story here. dare dare I say it's a history lesson.
Emi B (59:45.27)
Healthy!
Emi B (59:55.15)
I
Joel Cheesman (59:58.611)
So the nineteen eighties, I worked for McDonald's. fun fact about me. I made the McDLTs. if you remember the McDLTs, outs, yeah, in yeah, cold side, hot, cold side, cold, hot side, hot. So anyway, my my training for McDonald's was they put me in the training room, and I had two or three days of watching VHS tapes. They might have been Betamax at the time. Watching like literally the manager comes in, pops, pops in the VHS tape, and says, enjoy.
Chad Sowash (01:00:05.461)
Hot side hot. Cold side cold.
Chad Sowash (01:00:18.175)
Yeah.
Emi B (01:00:18.958)
my lord!
Chad Sowash (01:00:22.741)
Betamax.
Emi B (01:00:23.468)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:00:27.43)
gives me a a cheeseburger and that was my training. And from that, from that few hours, I was supposed to be a professional burger flipper, as a result. It sucked. It was awful. I didn't retain anything. It was like, I didn't have a question. It was like, just force feed me this shit. Fortunately, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just good at my job and and eating. So so it worked out. So fast forward, fast forward to today and whether it's AI making videos, sort of on demand,
Chad Sowash (01:00:29.161)
You lucky bastard. that's great.
Chad Sowash (01:00:38.955)
stop.
Emi B (01:00:46.958)
He's a pro, he's a fast learner.
Joel Cheesman (01:00:57.176)
any any language on your mobile device, on the platforms you already use, like this is the future of training and onboarding and keeping keeping employees current on what's going on in the marketplace. I talked to a startup recently that did this for interviewing. So they basically put you in a situation, maybe it's a bartender or something, and like how would you respond? Sort of a choose your own adventure
Here's the video. What would you do? So this is this is sort of the future of where this is all going and training employees. So I think I think bytes is is very cool, and you're gonna see a lot more of this. On the rocker site, there's not a whole lot there. It's it's a lot of like, you know, lot, you know, join and and we'll let you know when we're ready for you, kind of thing. so there's not a lot I can comment, but I always go back to and we talk about this, debate this chat. Is the future of agents going to be Jack and Jill?
Chad Sowash (01:01:26.472)
yeah. Tadio does that, yeah.
Chad Sowash (01:01:43.71)
Bam. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:01:55.121)
Or is it going to be Gemini and Grok and others? And so to me, Rocker is this do you want to have your own little enterprise AI that knows your company? Are you just going to have like the anthropic contract that does everything? Right. And I think more and more companies will gravitate toward we're we just have a big ass contract with open AI or whatever it is, and not these sort of segmented solutions. So
Rocker, some good DNA, some good leadership over there. But I just I just really like to take a bite out of out of bites, actually. That's that's that's where I'm going with my my hooja rather. Two votes for bites, and are you gonna make it a a a clean sweep, a hat trip? Are you gonna you're gonna throw us a yeah.
Emi B (01:02:27.425)
Out of bite.
Chad Sowash (01:02:29.683)
Mm.
Emi B (01:02:32.078)
Chad Sowash (01:02:32.724)
Emi B (01:02:37.678)
See you next time.
Chad Sowash (01:02:38.547)
You're making a menage à toi.
Emi B (01:02:40.832)
Let me tell you what it's going to be. This is not a menage-a-trois. This is a four-sim because me, Joe, Chad and Bytes.
Chad Sowash (01:02:45.195)
Ooh!
Chad Sowash (01:02:50.667)
Too easy. I'm gonna puke, but too easy. Okay. Cheesman's in the room. I can't
Emi B (01:02:55.054)
What? What you mean?
Joel Cheesman (01:02:56.082)
The the dark the room had that had better be a really dark room. That better be a really dark room. Holy shit.
Emi B (01:03:00.622)
I thought you were talking about me. Yeah. Honestly, no, do know what? I agree with you. I love the idea because, and I'll tell you why I love it, because this is a challenge that we're constantly trying to solve in my day job. Like part of my job is to like kind of give out, know, develop, deliver, recruit and learn it, you know? But at the end of the day, people need to know how to use the tools. People need to understand the best practices.
Chad Sowash (01:03:03.945)
Ha ha.
Emi B (01:03:30.21)
We need to upskill interviewers on how to like cope with a candidate that's too chatty or just doesn't talk or, know what mean? And we're sitting there all the time going, well, how do we make this fun? How do we not make this a uni lecture when we're in a world of TikTok or Instagram where you just want to watch something for 30 seconds and know what you need to do without reading a Bible on it. So for me, this is perfect. This is similar to something that we're doing at the moment.
where we're saying, okay, we're going to have this little one minute video where you actually interact with an avatar and you're going to role play how to interview a candidate. You know, that's something that we just came up with in the last two weeks. We're like, maybe this will work. We've got good feedback on it so far. So I love this idea. It solves that solution. People need to learn, but they want to learn quickly. They don't want to sit in the lecture.
Chad Sowash (01:04:21.919)
What they don't want is a dad joke, but we're gonna get it.
Joel Cheesman (01:04:22.066)
Sounds like a thruple to me, Chad.
Emi B (01:04:25.176)
Da na na na. Da na na na na. Wee!
Chad Sowash (01:04:29.723)
Joel Cheesman (01:04:31.44)
All right, let's close this thing out with a bang. Who wants a dad joke?
Chad Sowash (01:04:35.305)
Nobody. Nobody. Nobody wants to die jug.
Joel Cheesman (01:04:40.23)
What did the sushi say to the bee? What did the sushi say to the bee? What's what's up, bee? What's up, bee?
Emi B (01:04:45.998)
Thing me done? Lord, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:04:51.698)
What's up, B?
Chad Sowash (01:04:52.905)
What's that?
Emi B (01:04:54.606)
I was trying to be too clever with that there, yeah?
Chad Sowash (01:04:55.723)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:04:57.446)
Happy Veterans Day, happy remembrance day. We out.
Emi B (01:04:59.759)
We out! Yay!
Chad Sowash (01:05:00.469)
We out.
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