LinkedIn Goes Loco!
Meta's employees meltdown while LinkedIn goes looney!
In this episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast, hosts Joel Cheesman and J.T. O'Donnell unpack news across the global hiring landscape, focused on Meta, LinkedIn, Bernie Sanders, Who'd Ya' Rather and more.
Meta just reversed two internal bets: putting ICs back into management after layoffs, and pausing a monitoring program employees thought was training their AI replacements. Lean teams, a damaged talent brand, and who watches the agents.
Then a Business Insider piece on “LinkedIn lunatics.” JT is in it. Why posting now proves you know something—and why companies that police it may have a bigger problem.
Who’d You Rather: $40 million conversational-AI recruiter Jack and Jill vs. $12.7 million alumni play Boomerang HR. One host goes big. The other doesn’t.
They close on a Sanders bill to cut the work week to 32 hours. JT has already tried it. Joel asks if Slack after 5 would kill the point.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel Cheesman (00:45.052)
yeah, I'm taking it back to the old school 'cause I'm an old fool who's so cool. Hey boys and girls, it's the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co host, Joel. The AI Pocalypse is a hoax cheeseman.
JT O'Donnell (00:58.583)
And I'm JT Savi B in Summercorn O'Donnell.
Joel Cheesman (01:02.864)
And on this episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, Meta melts down, LinkedIn goes loco, and who'd you rather? Let's do this.
Joel Cheesman (01:16.924)
JT, it's been a minute. How are you?
JT O'Donnell (01:18.755)
No, what's up? Good summer? Obviously if you're drinking Wa Wan.
Joel Cheesman (01:23.46)
Well, I just yes, when I hear that I think about you. I think about you like in New England, on a lake front somewhere, enjoying enjoying a white wine. White wine. It's just just that makes me laugh every time I see it. yeah, summer's good. I've updated folks on the show but did a little Europe thing, enjoyed the backyard and you know, reading reading Barons and listening to Beastie Boys most of the summer.
JT O'Donnell (01:32.389)
It's the accent. You're thinking the New England Wa
Joel Cheesman (01:53.392)
Living the old old dad, middle aged guy life. how's how's your summer?
JT O'Donnell (01:53.55)
Nice.
JT O'Donnell (01:59.109)
Good. It was short. It was busy. Improved the golf game. A lot of outdoor time, but it's been busy. Work's been busy, busier than I expected. Mm-hmm. So no. No. I joined a club, right? So I'm a golf club member and I treated it like a I I did, but I treated it like a gym membership. I literally was there six days a week, either playing or at the range.
Joel Cheesman (02:05.581)
Improve the golf game. Say more about that. Are you taking lessons? Are you doing some augmented practice at Dicks? What are you doing?
Okay. Of course you did. That's a that's a New England requirement, isn't it? That have to join a club of some sort, country club. Okay.
JT O'Donnell (02:28.11)
Just working, working, working on the game and it worked, right? I've like, this is my first year ever playing. And so I'm happy and I'm playing in my first pro am September 28th. So my first competition. I am. So the pro of our club, he's obviously a registered pro, takes us to attorney. It's him and three amateurs. So I'm one of the amateurs on the team. And we compete against all these other club pro, you know, pros and they're three people. And so it's three ladies.
Joel Cheesman (02:32.089)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (02:36.635)
Playing in your first Pro like what does that mean?
Joel Cheesman (02:43.098)
Yep.
JT O'Donnell (02:54.558)
And our our pro and we're gonna go and we're gonna try to kick some butt. I'll keep you posted.
Joel Cheesman (02:58.607)
Does everyone hit the same amount of of holes or is it like a relay where I get one hole, you get the next hole?
JT O'Donnell (03:02.646)
You no no, you no, we all play eighteen and our scores count, right? And we all have handicaps. So that's the other thing. I had to keep a handicap this summer because we're all handicapped and then play and then they have, you know, this little computer that figures out which team scored the best based on their handicap.
Joel Cheesman (03:06.807)
Okay. Okay.
Joel Cheesman (03:16.655)
Yeah. Look at us doing like old people emptiness stuff, learning to golf and
JT O'Donnell (03:20.964)
Stuff. No, this is a huge business now. No, the ladies are getting into golf. Golf is a changed game. It's a young person's it is. It's a young person's sport now too. So I'm just getting younger, dude.
Joel Cheesman (03:26.757)
Golf is huge.
Joel Cheesman (03:31.737)
Have you have you done the pickleball thing yet? That's apparently the next
JT O'Donnell (03:34.294)
No, because I've I know two different people that tore that tore ACLs playing pickleball. I'm not a fan right now. I don't need to be ripping anything. Nope.
Joel Cheesman (03:39.404)
Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah, you and Chad. yeah. Chad's a paddle guy. He pickleball is for for for punks and suckas. so I had two topics for banter I wanted to run by you after checking in on on Summer. So the big narrative this week is AI is gonna kill us. we need we need to pause. Trump is saying like full steam ahead.
JT O'Donnell (03:45.772)
That's right, Padel. Right.
Joel Cheesman (04:03.012)
what's your take? we've been through some catastrophization in our life and things are gonna kill us from nuclear nuclear weapons to everything. So what's your take on AI?
JT O'Donnell (04:12.254)
It so I I d I did what I think probably most people did. I went to AI and said, Tell me how you're gonna kill me. I basically jumped in and said, Walk me through it. Everyone did it like walk me through this. Like and and it came down with two paths. It said, one, like you've seen in every movie, we're gonna get smarter than you and take you out. But two, more likely, people our technology is gonna get in the wrong hands and people are gonna do bad things with it, right? Like so I was like, All right, I get the basics. This is where you're going with it.
Joel Cheesman (04:21.877)
Everyone's done that. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (04:37.146)
Okay.
JT O'Donnell (04:41.44)
Then there's me who now wants to think 10 steps ahead and all of a sudden this week, what is up? Cyber stocks. Like all the stocks in technology that would help with this is through the wor roof. And you're like, So then I go, is this media at all timing? Like what's going on? Like we've known this for a while, but why why this week? Why now are we suddenly deciding and all because of one guy, you know, writing his resignation letter and claiming there's a ten percent chance we're done in at the end of the decade, right? Like that's what stirred this whole thing. Like I just
Joel Cheesman (04:49.957)
Yeah, security. Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (05:11.49)
I don't I don't know. Of course there's a real threat. I get it. I'm I'm not saying there isn't a real threat, but I just I I don't trust all this anymore, like everyone else. I just I don't know what to believe.
Joel Cheesman (05:14.245)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (05:20.901)
So your your next prompt should have been if I were gonna make a lot of money on this whole AI fear thing, what would I do? And the first step would be like AI, then data centers, and then c and security and yeah, the grift the grift is real. I I just so historically I mentioned nuclear weapons and you and I are both of the age where like we both remember the day after the the TV show that showed nuclear d Holocaust.
JT O'Donnell (05:37.092)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (05:43.844)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (05:51.5)
we've obviously been through COVID. we've been through climate change, global warming. I can remember when there was gonna be another ice age, believe it or not. I can remember that. So you and I have both been through a lot of like we're all gonna die moments. And not that there isn't bad things that happen, like wars do happen, does like all this stuff happens, but until something has to happen, like with Three Mile Island or
JT O'Donnell (06:01.411)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (06:19.343)
Chernobyl. Like there has to be a major thing that happens before anyone goes, shit, we need to do something about it. Now the the the the warning is we should do something before that happens. But human nature is until until we're shown the d the the horror of it, we don't know. Now, is AI smart enough to like lull us into a false sense of security and like slowly boil us and until we're like, holy shit, we're gone. I don't know. but yeah, I I tend to be more optimistic.
about most of this stuff, although it does go beyond my pay grade of understanding these agents and these agents swarming into sh stuff and that's scary. I saw Terminator, just like everybody else.
JT O'Donnell (07:00.386)
Yeah. Two right. Two things come to mind when you say that. W we n we never consistently take our vitamins, but we always take the aspirin when we're in pain, right? The vitamins could be preventative. We wait to the pain. So you're right. I'm with you on that a hundred percent. and the other thing is predictions are useless. You know, it's always the thing that we didn't predict that surprises us. So we should be more concerned about what we're not realizing. We're so focused on this could happen, but it's going to be something totally different than we expected, right?
Joel Cheesman (07:09.913)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (07:20.667)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (07:28.953)
Yeah. It's also a political you mentioned the money thing, but also politically, this is one of the few issues where both parties seem to be in agreement, whether it's data centers, whether it's just AI, 'cause I don't think people are seeing the benefit of it. I think it's this sort of
JT O'Donnell (07:30.03)
So
JT O'Donnell (07:45.529)
Well, the other thing that came out, another theory, and I would agree with this one too, was even AI saying we should slow the roll, because all the predictions they made about their earnings aren't coming to fruition. So they're missing earnings marks. They're missing predictions on revenues. So when you can turn around and go, Well, we had to slow the roll. Sorry, that's why we didn't make our numbers. Mm, it's convenient.
Joel Cheesman (07:52.325)
Uh-huh.
Joel Cheesman (07:58.65)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (08:04.44)
Yeah, that's a good point. You can tell your your investors, hey, you know, we had to slow it down 'cause the government. There's a do you listen to Diary of a CEO?
JT O'Donnell (08:10.724)
Sorry.
Not all of them, but I do love Stephen Bartlett.
Joel Cheesman (08:15.661)
Okay. There's there's a guy recently I don't I don't remember his name, but he is he is a critic to say the least of these businesses and where they're going and sort of the the the roundabout of money that's funding this whole thing and that it's a house of cards. So if you if if you get a chance, I recommend Dire CEO talk AI is is destined to fail or whatever. Like these business models are not great.
JT O'Donnell (08:32.195)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (08:42.639)
to say the least. so yeah, we'll we'll see how it how it goes. But politically I think it's something that if Trump is on like we're full steam ahead, I think it's a real political winner if you get on the side of like let's slow it down and and you know, belts and suspenders.
JT O'Donnell (08:55.577)
Yeah.
All I'll say is this, a year ago we were kinda talking AI. Now on this podcast it could be a drinking game. set AI drink. set A you know, it's it's it's all we right, it's all we talk about. So it's definitely here. There's something going on.
Joel Cheesman (09:05.803)
White wine. I'm gonna have a white wine. Uh-huh.
So the the other thing I wanted to get your opinion on is I know you're an iPhone user. what's the iPhone duo? What's what's your take? Are are you gonna buy the the foldable phone? Are you is it a winner? Is it no big deal?
JT O'Donnell (09:25.214)
you know, I am one of those people that always likes to wait for version two, three, four, or five, you know. So to me, I wanna watch and see. It's interesting. I just I'm not in any rush to have one. The one I have works fine, you know. So show me reasons why I have to have it. I'll think about it, but for now it's I just think it's a novelty. What do you think?
Joel Cheesman (09:42.694)
So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna give you my take. And I know that you're you're you're a student of the human condition. So I'm curious about your take on this. So I've always thought that part of the appeal of the iPhone is a little bit sexual, a little bit of like, you'll want to mate with me because I've made good decisions in my life. Like the whole Apple brand historically has been I'm creative, I'm intelligent, I'm a little bit edgy.
I have the money to spend on this. Like when the original iPhone came out, it was five hundred dollars. And Steve Baumer famously said, No one's gonna buy a five hundred dollar phone when they can have a ninety-nine dollar, you know, Microsoft phone or whatever that was. So so if you had an iPhone, it was like, ooh, you have a little bit of money, you have a little bit of you know, clout, you have you have something going on in your life. Now, over the decades, I think that brand has been diminished because if you have a two thousand
JT O'Donnell (10:26.454)
Joel Cheesman (10:37.869)
18 iPhone, it looks about the same as the 2026 iPhone. Like there's not a ton of difference. And I can buy the five-year-old phone a lot cheaper than I can now. So my my take on this is people will buy this thing because if they can pull it out at a restaurant or a club or a conference and have that look of like, shit, they got something going on. They got two grand to spend on this thing. They're cre you know, they're creative. They're a little like I think it's going to be a like
Hey, check me out thing, that I Apple hasn't sort of embraced in a long time. So I think I think it's gonna be a huge hit. the early numbers we have is that the the other options of phones like the regular ones, the sales are pretty low. The demand is pretty low because I think everyone is waiting to for this big phone to come out so that they can get it and look like a look like a baller again like they did in 2007.
JT O'Donnell (11:31.874)
I have two thoughts on it. First of all, the group that were Apple fanatics, right? Waiting in the line for everything, they're aging. Like you said, that brand is associated with a generation. They're aging. There's not as many of them. Doesn't surprise me that the phone sales are down. Cause I think everybody's like, whoa, wait, flip phones, we're going back like everything old is new again. So they're watching that.
Joel Cheesman (11:33.296)
Yep.
Joel Cheesman (11:41.573)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (11:48.325)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (11:52.41)
Well, l what I said was demand for the so there's a whole lineup of these phones and only one of them is foldable. The demand for the regular ones is low. My my take is that they're all waiting to buy the foldable. Yeah. Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (12:05.486)
For that one. Okay. So we'll see, we'll see their prediction when it comes out. But I still stand by the idea that these there are the Apple obsessed. And so the way they describe it is it's not that I have discretionary funds. It's that my hobby, my life, my world is wrapped up in this Apple identity. I love Apple. I nerd out on it. Therefore I buy it no matter what. So I don't think it's a to me, it's not a sign of of the rich. Normally when I see somebody with it, I'm like, you have Apple everything, don't you? And they're usually nodding yes. So early adopters, first thing. Second thing is
Joel Cheesman (12:29.723)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (12:34.092)
What you referred to, the kids call LARPing, living as a rich person. So in social media, there's this whole thing about LARPing. Everybody knows when somebody's LARPing. And so I think you're not gonna kind of well looks maxing, looks maxing is, you know, trying to maximize how attractive you are. But LARPing is like really big in social world where they're all claiming they're driving these cars and flying in private planes and it's all a bunch of hoax. Like they're renting them for the day and taking these pick right.
Joel Cheesman (12:39.023)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (12:45.723)
Is that like maxing? Is that like maxing a little bit? Okay.
Joel Cheesman (13:01.947)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (13:03.522)
That's LARPing. And I think there's gonna be a lot of people going, Yeah, you can't even afford your rent, but you bought that thing to to LARP that you've got that phone, right? So they're to with the younger generations, I don't think they'll be rushing for the phone. Like I said, I think there's a very certain group of people. I think it'll work against you, you LARPers.
Joel Cheesman (13:10.701)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (13:16.025)
That's interesting.
Joel Cheesman (13:19.909)
So I'm I'm glad you said that because I I talked to my daughter who's seventeen, she's a teenager, so she's got her finger in the pulse of this stuff more than I do. And there is there is a desire with young people to embrace the analog, the the the ways of the old, right? Like whether it's nineties style, like you know, flannels back and eighties music or whatever it is. And I asked her about this phone, like, d is this cool? Like, is this something if you could afford like would you would?
JT O'Donnell (13:35.62)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (13:49.54)
And her take was simply it's just too much. It's just more of this sort of trend of high tech, AI, like the world, the kids are are are abandoning that. And so there's actually a a new phone. I think it's called nothing, the nothing phone, that's appealing to young people. And it's sort of a no-frills phone. I know foldable phones or flip phones are kind of coming back. So I I I think we're gonna go back to our
JT O'Donnell (13:56.11)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (14:16.836)
See?
Joel Cheesman (14:19.395)
you know, our TikTok feeds and our busty Latinas and bug fights, but I could be I could be wrong. I could be outdated. I don't know.
JT O'Donnell (14:26.04)
Well, ask your daughter about LARPing. She knows.
Joel Cheesman (14:29.167)
I'll ask her about LARPing. Let's get to shout outs.
Joel Cheesman (14:34.509)
All right, JT, our shout outs are sponsored by Proven Base because everyone loves free bourbon.
That's right. Thanks to Proven Base. Chad and I are able to send out a bottle of chicken cock, one from me, one from Chad to a lucky winner. you gotta go to Chadcheese.com slash free to get it. Special thanks to our friends at Proven Base. They're making miracles happen and they're helping you find talent that others can't reach. So, JT, I was a kid of the eighties, seventies, and I I loved ads.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be like an ad exec. I wasn't smart enough. I wasn't creative enough. I was in this no zone for that. But I've always loved Where's the Beef, nineteen eighty-four, you know, Apple commercials. Like I I loved the periods where a show aired and seventy percent of the country watched that same show. We all watched the same ads, like we all talked about the same stuff. The internet and everything has become so customized.
That your ads are different than my ads, are different than Chad's ads, or different than like everyone gets different ads. So I miss the days of the big ad, the the Super Bowl is great for that, right? We get the ads that everyone watches. So whenever there's a period where, like, man, a big ad just showed up, everyone's talking about it. Like, I love it. So I don't know if you've seen this, but Sydney Sweeney is doing a provocative ad for Novig, where she's a an equity holder.
And it and it's really it's really stirring the pot with everybody. So I'm gonna I'm gonna show this if you haven't seen it. for our for our listeners, I apologize, you won't get the full effect, but those of you on YouTube will appreciate this more than the audio.
Joel Cheesman (17:20.453)
So just for the record, JT, there was a shorter version of that of that ad, but I thought the full minute was really necessary to get the to get the point across. So I I yeah, I I I l love Sydney Sweeney. I love sports. I love the big ad. I love the controversy. I think this is great. It's got people talking. Look, seventy percent of sports betters are men. it's a lot of, let's be honest, women that are mad about this ad, and I don't think it
JT O'Donnell (17:30.2)
Joel, you're so predictable.
Joel Cheesman (17:48.857)
like Novig should not care because their audience is men that love sports and spetting money and they I think they hit the nail on the head, but you might have a different perspective.
JT O'Donnell (18:00.173)
Yeah, sadly I don't for you. I'm sure you wanted me to debate it out of it. And I'll probably have a lot of women in my inbox after this, but you know, I'm I'm a businesswoman and I am heavily into social media. I like you, I'm more fascinated about the psychology behind it. we're in a time right now where people, you know, shock is holds eyeballs, right? Like we we all have social ADD. And so companies realize this.
Joel Cheesman (18:18.416)
Yep.
Joel Cheesman (18:26.777)
Uh-huh.
JT O'Donnell (18:29.27)
And have to build things that are shocking. I think they're they are rolling the dice. You have some very recently, you have a lot of brands who have a problem because their ads went didn't land correctly. I don't think that this is the one. Like you said, they know their audience. Nobody's succeeding from using Novig because of it, you know? And so she knows her audience, she's invested in it. She understands exactly what she's doing in that. She's using her assets. you know, I just
Joel Cheesman (18:37.499)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (18:56.207)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (18:58.318)
To me, this is this is capitalism. This is advertising. This is what's going on right now. If anything, I think that one lands way better than the stuff I've seen. Like you know how I feel about good, good golf and Callaway, who, you know, really blew it with a domestic violence video, you know, versus this. So you know, you I think you do have to try to find a way to swing for the fences and you're gonna rattle some people. The fine line of rattling versus having everybody cancel your brand is there, but I don't they're not gonna cancel this brand.
Joel Cheesman (19:10.776)
huh. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (19:19.556)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (19:27.864)
I think I think they accomplished the goal.
Joel Cheesman (19:27.961)
You you go big like they're competing with FanDuel and DraftKings and Vegas and like so they this is going big and I think they crushed it and I just I love it. I know it upsets people, but I think that's the point.
JT O'Donnell (19:32.696)
My point.
JT O'Donnell (19:41.516)
It was. It was designed to it was designed to upset people, but it also it was exactly for the audience that was intended, you know, and so right, that the to your point. So yeah, it's it's fascinating.
Joel Cheesman (19:48.186)
Wow.
Two two thumbs up for Sydney Sweeney. That's what I'm talking about.
JT O'Donnell (19:54.958)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (19:57.243)
All right. Bring us down with your shout out.
JT O'Donnell (20:01.167)
So I was laughing so hard because you were like, What's your shout out? I'm like, I'm not going to tell you, but I was between two. So the funny thing is, the first one I was going to do, and real quick, shout out to season four of Ted Lasso and his ladies' team. So you want to keep it in the ladies theme. I am loving this season. If you're loving this season, message me. I just, there's so much to it. I keep re-watching episodes because I love it so much. But the big one I want to hit, and this is really funny, shout out to the game Hitster. If you have not played Hitster, and I'm obviously not
Joel Cheesman (20:04.998)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (20:10.97)
Okay.
JT O'Donnell (20:29.9)
Endorsing them anyway, you need to play. And it it ties into what you're talking about. You talked about 80s and what you loved. Hitster is a game where you have to guess the year of the song. So you use your app, the song starts playing. You're supposed to guess the song, but most importantly, you're supposed to decide like where on a timeline it is. So if you've got 1997 down and you get a song, you have to decide if it's before or after that. Then that card goes down and you decide where. So the more cards you get, the harder it is to fill in. When I tell you.
Joel Cheesman (20:40.377)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (20:55.469)
Okay.
JT O'Donnell (20:57.036)
It's been a long time. I love games, but it's been a long time since I've played a game where I'm obsessed and everyone can play. Like every generation can play because what you do is, like you said, you start you hear the song and you're like, what was happening that year? What do I remember? What does the music sound like? Like what ads we're playing? What like like you start reminiscing like everything? And it is such a joyful, fun game. And again, your whole your there's all the way up to 2025. So young people play it and win just as much as our generation.
Joel Cheesman (21:10.586)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (21:15.259)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (21:26.574)
Highly, highly recommend folks grab Hitster for your next family party or friend party and then message me because you're gonna love it. So there's my shout out. It's awesome.
Joel Cheesman (21:33.369)
Okay. I've I've never heard of this thing. So let me let me get some clarification here. It's a board game. It's not like an app. it isn't it's a card game. Okay, so it's a real world game in real life. It's not an app. Okay. So you get a bunch of cards and then how do you play the song?
JT O'Donnell (21:39.66)
No, it's a card game. Cards. Mm-hmm. Yep.
JT O'Donnell (21:51.151)
So imagine this. So you download the Hitster app on your phone, and there's just this big stack of cards with QR codes on the top. That's all you see. So if your turns up, Joel, I go like this. The song starts blasting. It reads the QR code, it starts blasting. You sit there and you go, All right, I think that's, you know, Cindy Lauper, time after time. I'm gonna go. It's, you know, I've got 1992 here. It's before 92. I'm putting it here. And then we flip over and see if you're right. If you're right.
Joel Cheesman (21:54.682)
Okay.
JT O'Donnell (22:18.242)
You go down and you get to keep it. If you're wrong, you're out and next player. And so
Joel Cheesman (22:21.603)
Okay. So you so you choose is it before this year or after this year? It's not like a window it's not like eighty one to eighty five and then eighty six to nine. Okay.
JT O'Donnell (22:25.484)
Right. Right. But yes, it is over time, because the more cards you get, the more times you win. Now you might have 82, 85, 87, 91. And you that song comes up and you're like, was that 86 or was that 89? And you're guessing so the more cards you get, the more the shorter the time spans get for you, and the harder it is for you to get more cards.
Joel Cheesman (22:34.267)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (22:38.628)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (22:45.774)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (22:51.855)
And do you get more points as it gets harder? First person to ten. Okay.
JT O'Donnell (22:53.922)
You gotta get the first person to ten. First person to ten cards straight. And it so it's really real you will freak for this and your whole family will love it. So you're welcome in advance. Everyone, go get hit stir. It is so good. Hit st I t s t e R. You're any place you can get games, Amazon hit stir. You got it. Thank me later.
Joel Cheesman (23:08.023)
Hitster. Okay. It's at my local what? Walmart, Target. it's everywhere. Anywhere you get games. All right. I've I heard it here first. I heard it here first.
Joel Cheesman (23:21.889)
All right. what's next? Let's get to some events here.
Joel Cheesman (23:28.825)
So everyone knows our events and our travel sponsored by the good folks at Shaker Recruitment Marketing, who we will see in Nashville next week, along with you and Mo and Chad and Cheese and everybody else. So if you're going to Recfest, come by and say hi. We'll be at the disrupt stage. You guys are at innovation, I think. Give it give us get give us the spiel on what you're doing at Recfest for the people.
JT O'Donnell (23:47.641)
We are running innovation. Yeah. Mo and I are co co-hosting Innovation Stage day one. 10 amazing groups coming on stage. it it's it's gonna be a good one. And I didn't realize how competitive Nashville Wreckfest is. Like people are throwing down on the LinkedIn, well, on LinkedIn, they're like, not like somebody wrote, look, there's a lot of stages, but just for the record, ours is the best. I'm like, whoa, those are fighting words. Okay, let's go, right? So that that little banter's been going around.
Joel Cheesman (24:03.95)
Okay. In what way?
Joel Cheesman (24:12.219)
Okay.
JT O'Donnell (24:17.686)
On day two, I am on a panel about ATS systems and I am hosting a panel as well. So yeah, busy couple days. I'm excited for it.
Joel Cheesman (24:26.775)
Okay. We tried to get Sydney Sweeney to come to our stage, but that that was a no go, unfortunately. She was not she was she was not into that at all. okay, so in addition to Nashville, also we'll we'll be doing hopefully the show the weekly show live. I mean we'll record it live and I'll go publish, but like it should be us four talking about the show and what's going on. so that'll be fun. And then October
JT O'Donnell (24:31.828)
Yeah, you're not big on her list. Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (24:48.27)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (24:52.315)
six Chad and I will be in Amsterdam for the eRecruitment Congress. if you're in Europe, it's a must see in my opinion. Go to eRecruitment dash Congress dot com to get in on that. And then on the twelfth of October, Chad and I will be at the Future of Frontline Summit in Vegas, that piggybacks on the Workday Rising conference, which is the the Paradox conference. So
A lot of travel coming up in the next few weeks. And then I'm taking like I'm chilling. I'm chilling through the holidays, Halloween with the kids. Like that's that's all that's all all good. And also playing some.
Fantasy football. That's right. That sounds means. It's time for an update on our fantasy football league, sponsored by the good folks at Factory Fix. Well, JT, week one is in the books. Here's your leaderboard. Number one, Jarrett Holderson. Hol sorry. Holdersma. I'll never get that. number two, Nicholas Tiziak. Hopefully I'm saying that one right too. I know I'm getting this one right. Number three is Scott Clark for
Nick Livingston. Number five, McKenzie Mad Dog Maitland, who won the league last year. She's off to a good start, kicking my ass this week. number six, we got Molly Sly. Seven, Dejayan Amare. Number eight, Desiree Goldade. Number nine, Bosco Vujitovich. Number ten is Chad Sowash. Followed by me. And the biggest loser in week one goes to Ben Kunz. Thanks for thanks for thanks for saving me from the basement, Ben.
But that is another update from fantasy football, sponsored by our friends at Factory Fix. Let's get to some topics, should we?
JT O'Donnell (26:38.745)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (26:43.587)
All right, JT. This week, meta reverse course on two of its most controversial internal initiatives. Number one, asking individual contributors to step back into middle management roles after cutting thousands. And number two, indefinitely suspending a highly unpopular employee monitoring program that had sparked a worker revolt. This is not the AI utopia we were promised, JT. Break down your thoughts on the my bad at
Mata.
JT O'Donnell (27:15.744)
Yeah, I mean that just this is gonna be the new mantra, right? Now we're gonna see all middle management start returning. Not everyone, but start seeing this all back because once one of the biggies is publicly says, Mea culpa, I was wrong. You know, first we have this whole, okay, we laid everybody off for AI, now we're bringing some back. You know, so d should it surprise us? Of course not, because I love how they're thought like, all adults will play just fine by themselves. Everyone could just be fine with no management. I
That's not how the world has ever worked. We know that. It's just not how it is. So it doesn't surprise me at all on that initiative. I'm more excited about the second one being rolled back. I mean, what were they thinking? This is literally with that whole monitoring thing. You know, it used to be you would talk and say, getting hired at Facebook, getting hired at Meta was everything. Like, get that on your resume, and you were set. And you and I talk a lot about this. Like, what are the career things that can kind of give you an edge? And it was forever and ever and ever.
Joel Cheesman (28:10.971)
Mm.
JT O'Donnell (28:12.898)
Saying that you worked for Meta was it. People are leaving it in droves. The best of the best are leaving. It does not hold the same cachet anymore. It does not. It just people, in fact, if you're sticking around there and you're not going other places with everything that's going on, people are like, why? What you are you not good enough to go someplace else? So you got to be careful. You really do. My point, my point. They're the best are jumping ship. And so Meta's in trouble. They've they've had this image issue for a while. It's constantly getting more magnified. They're not going to get the same talent that they used to get.
Joel Cheesman (28:29.103)
Yeah. Does does open AI not want you? What's wrong with you? Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (28:43.199)
And that's you know, that's what happens.
Joel Cheesman (28:45.679)
Yeah, I I worked for an organization once that was very linear, right? It was ever there is no hierarchy, everything is horizontal in nature, and it just it just doesn't work that well. And you know, there's there's a reason why the military is a hierarchy because it kind of works like taking direction and and so while AI can't optimize tasks, it really cannot.
JT O'Donnell (29:00.388)
It doesn't work. It doesn't work.
JT O'Donnell (29:08.429)
Facts.
Joel Cheesman (29:14.499)
replace the complex human leadership required to coordinate like massive products and projects and and the number of people that are into that. And I think that the dream of AI is that we wouldn't need people to manage that, but we actually do. If you just give everybody a gun and say go out and and defeat the enemy, it doesn't really work very well because everyone has their own sort of agenda. interestingly, the internal data revealed that extremely lean structure read
JT O'Donnell (29:33.23)
Thank ya. Thanks.
Joel Cheesman (29:41.616)
resulted in depleted teams and a 40% increase in technical incidents and and actually slower overall development. So if you just have everyone's an island, it doesn't work out very well. You need managers to do that. And I think that's interesting. The the surveillance part, it's not only that you're watching employees, and I I I went off on this last week that I think if you work for a big company, just understand that everything you do is going to be tracked.
JT O'Donnell (29:44.206)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (29:56.12)
Agreed.
Joel Cheesman (30:10.521)
Whether it's for productivity, whether it's for are you misbehaving? Are you doing what you're supposed to do? Like that is and I think for most companies it is a it is a reality. People understand all my emails are red, all my slacks are red, everything that I do on a company device is going to be tracked. The problem with the meta thing is that people were training their replacement. They were basically saying, like, we're going to look at your Google activities, your LinkedIn, your Slack, like everything even outside of Meta.
To then train your replacement slash AI to do your job. Well, shockingly, there was a revolt about that. employees realized that they were being replaced or they were training their replacement. The revolt was kind of funny. There were like internal memes apparently. There were like old school posters put in the bathroom where where no one was you know, no one's watching us in the bathroom.
So like posters were being put in the bathroom like fight the AI and do this. And we had they had eighteen hundred comp or eighteen hundred employees sign a sign a petition against this. They have since paused what they're doing. I can't imagine that they ever bring this thing back or try to bring it back in a a new and different way. this was a bad idea from the start. You're gonna be surveilled at work, but if it's surveillance to replace you, I think that's a line that most people aren't willing to to cross.
JT O'Donnell (31:31.66)
Yeah. I I think what this really showcases is that big companies, like they have to put such crazy things in place because of the sheer size of them. And the one prediction that I will make is that AI is switching and no company's ever said, I want more employees, right? Employee humans are unpredictable, stuff happens. So I understand the theory. I think we're gonna see a lot right. I think we're gonna see leaner companies because smaller companies can be more agile.
Joel Cheesman (31:50.127)
Yeah. It's a have to. It's a have to. Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (31:58.127)
But you will need management, like you said. I just hope we see a lot more of them, you know, so everybody can work for a smaller, leaner, more interesting company as opposed to these big companies where you're a cog and where this kind of stuff goes down.
Joel Cheesman (32:09.209)
Yeah. And more and more like I get the productive productivity side. And I think if if a CEO can understand, look, have AI help me understand where are my holes, where is productivity lacking. And then I can go and understand that better. Where are my high performers? Where's my like what someone's in a role that maybe needs to be somewhere else? And I definitely understand HR understanding, okay, in the correspondence of our of our daily activities, who is a risk?
JT O'Donnell (32:22.008)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (32:38.309)
Who is like who who could who might bring a machete to work and hat you know, hack up some people? Like I understand wanting to know that. I just think what the line is, is is something that companies have to be really aware of and not cross any lines.
JT O'Donnell (32:52.598)
Agreed. Agreed.
Joel Cheesman (32:56.951)
Also, I think what agents do, going back to the AI catastrophe and and apocalypse, companies have to realize like, what are agents doing? Like the agents that got out of the sandbox and hacked up ha hugging face, that's a real thing. And look, there was a great example, I think, on Pivot this week where if if I have a pit bull and that pit bull
choose up my neighbor's kid, you know who's responsible for that? Me. My my dog's not going to jail. Like I'm going to jail or something's happening to me. So these companies, like who's responsible for agents going nuts and who's tracking all this activity? Companies are going to be held liable for this. So they better track not only what their human employees are doing, but what the hell our agents are doing because that could come back to bite them in the ass. It's a
JT O'Donnell (33:34.936)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (33:53.891)
Yeah, we have we've built human review into everything. Like we're heavily AI functioning right now in this company, my company. but there is human review in every critical stage for that exact reason. Cause it does hallucinate, it does go rogue, it does give the advice we told it not to give. There still needs to be checks and balances. And so, you know, to me that's never going to go away. But the c the things that's allowed us to do that would have taken not just four people, not just forty people.
Joel Cheesman (33:59.289)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Joel Cheesman (34:10.437)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (34:23.643)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (34:24.11)
But you know, the stuff that we're building now would I take in hundreds of people is so exciting to me. So, you know, you take the good with the bad, this opportunity is amazing, but we're still really careful about the human review aspect.
Joel Cheesman (34:36.219)
Well, you know what I say about the choices we make as humans and organizations.
Joel Cheesman (34:44.603)
All right, guys, we're going to take a quick break. If you're not following us on your podcast platform of choice or on YouTube, please do so. And we've been stuck on eighty-eight reviews on the on Apple forever. So if you're listening on Apple, give us a review. I want to hit a hundred before 2027. I want to hit we need 12 more reviews, people. We need 12 more on Apple. So please take your folded phone out, open it up, and give us a review on on Apple. We'll be right back.
Joel Cheesman (35:18.167)
LinkedIn Lunatics. I love that. Business Insider published an article entitled, Why Becoming a LinkedIn Lunatic Might Save Your Career? It features our very own JT O'Donnell and Maureen, which is very exciting. here's my here's my summary of the article. But you were in it, so I want I want you to comment on this. So, in a world of quiet hiring, people need to be active on LinkedIn while not looking too active by their employer.
and this is in light of LinkedIn cracking down on AI Slop after initially saying, Hey, we love the AI Slop, we'll help we'll actually help you write it. by the way, Chad and I are never in business insider stories, but whatever. JT, you were in this thing, you read it, for sure. What are your thoughts on the LinkedIn lunatics?
JT O'Donnell (36:09.346)
Yeah, I was really excited. So, first of all, Amanda Hoover is an awesome journalist over at Business Insider. You should read some of her other work because she really explores all sides. And that title, I laugh because she did she perfectly baited people with it, right? LinkedIn Luna, like just nailed it. it comes from a Reddit thread where they're pulling the cringiest LinkedIn posts and putting them all over there for people to laugh at and make fun of, which I think is hilarious.
Joel Cheesman (36:24.891)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (36:32.571)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (36:34.424)
For me, what I've been trying to explain to people for the longest time is in the same way I like to give people the opportunity to grow. You know, like you want to believe people are growing and changing and being different. I think you need to think about LinkedIn as a platform that has grown and evolved as well. You know, this is my 20th year on that platform. I started on in 2006. I've watched it change many, many, many times. I've seen them go in one direction, pivot back to a different direction. Some of it I've loved, some of it I hate I've hated.
But ultimately where they've landed right now is they are the one place where you can go and validate that you are real and that you know what you know. And we live in an age now where doing great at your job so that everybody that works with you knows you're great is useless. Because when you lose your job, they can't help you get it at the next one. And nobody trusts resumes anymore because they're all fake. So this platform is giving people a place to authenticate. And you're gonna see more things like, you know, you've already seen them, they've partnered with Clear, where you can validate that you're a real person.
They are talking deeply about validating recruiters. So, hey, only respond to recruiters that are, you know, have the check mark, so to speak. they're the one platform that's the furthest along in allowing this to go. And what's been most exciting to me about being a LinkedIn lunatic, by the way, I am gonna AI myself in a t-shirt that says I'm a LinkedIn lunatic, get ready for it. but they people who got pigeonholed based on their past work experience are getting jobs in new fields and in new industries.
Joel Cheesman (37:58.085)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (37:58.147)
Because they're being able to document their knowledge and show that they know what they're talking about in spite of not necessarily having the track record. And they're surfacing in the results because the algorithm is based on relevancy and frequency, not on your job titles anymore. And this is what people do not get. So if you've ever wanted to change careers or if you want a shot at someplace that you would have never had a shot at before, this is how you're doing it. And people you have confirmation bias, you've already decided you hate LinkedIn. So anything you can do to hate LinkedIn more, fine. But you're missing out.
On this very powerful career thing that's happening right now. And trust me, the moment there's something other than LinkedIn, I'll be the first to tell everybody about it. Because I you know, there shouldn't just be one, you know. everybody thought my space would be the only one. Look at us now in social media. So something is gonna come for LinkedIn at some point. But right now they've innovated and they're the place to be. And so, you know, if you're looking for a new job, you want things to happen, you wanna be in stealth mode, you want a great company to knock on your door, there's now never been an easier way to do it. But you don't like LinkedIn, so
Joel Cheesman (38:59.035)
By the way, we're still waiting on Twitter slash X to be the the LinkedIn killer that Elon promised us. it it I I love your take on the history and and I've been on it equally as long. I remember so so what's interesting is how the users have evolved. there there was a time where employers restricted employees from being on LinkedIn.
JT O'Donnell (39:03.212)
Right. There you go. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (39:26.895)
Because it's like, I don't want my competitor to see my engineers. I don't want my competitors to see my high performing salespeople. Now, over time, as people left jobs and got laid off and what they start a LinkedIn thing. So then it became well, we can't tell you to delete your LinkedIn. You got it, but like don't look too busy in it. Right. And this is before the content creation. It was just like your profile's there. If I see it updated, you know, hell, hell is following.
So if you if you updated your LinkedIn, it was like, shit, my employer got pissed off. And now you're you're active on it and you're con you're creating content. And I think the the part of the story with you was I have this side gig and my employer is concerned about I'm doing my side thing more than my real job. And they were pushing that employee to put like a hero image of their employer's brand.
on their LinkedIn profile as if to say, hey, are you committed to us or not? Are you are you in it to win it? so this this back and forth of the relationship between employees and or workers and and and companies is really interesting. And I don't have a good answer for what a company's policy should be on employees using LinkedIn. Like what's the line? I think it's probably dependent upon the company, but this is where we are. You have to be active on it. You have to be organic on it, right?
LinkedIn wants you to be real. They don't want AI slop. So now you have to be really good at LinkedIn, which I think is kind of what your service helps with and your blogging content helps with. You got something to say, so go ahead.
JT O'Donnell (41:03.393)
Yeah. I do. I'm so anxious about it. So years ago, I was with some glass door executives and people and they would say, Yeah, people would come to us and say, Hey, I have a glass door problem, right? I've got all these negative reviews, I have a glass door problem. And the executive looked at the CEO and said, You don't have a glass door problem, you have a retention problem. Because if you're doing things right, you wouldn't have these scores. So own it. I say to every CEO executive out there that, like, we are
Joel Cheesman (41:10.33)
I'm sorry.
Joel Cheesman (41:17.829)
Hm.
JT O'Donnell (41:30.636)
I don't want our people to use LinkedIn, we then you have a retention problem. Because if you really know you're doing a great job, your employees actually will be on LinkedIn saying, I did this cool thing this week at my company and my company won this and I did and they shouldn't have to do it all the time. You're LinkedIn, you are a business of one selling your services to an employer. So that is your brand. Protect your brand. I tell people that all the time. And if your company has some sort of agreement where you're not allowed to do this, what does that say about them? Why do they feel the need to have to have that?
Joel Cheesman (41:32.571)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (41:51.824)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (41:59.929)
Right.
JT O'Donnell (42:00.045)
And most companies are realizing now because LinkedIn's algorithm is suppressing business content. So companies aren't getting the mileage out of it that they used to, that their best asset would be to have an ambassador program of employees who are comfortable doing posting because individual posting is beating in the algorithm intentionally. They're very clear about the algorithm. So anybody out there listening, any executive, any HR person, please rethink your social strategy. You're sitting on an asset right now, an untapped asset with what's going on on LinkedIn.
Joel Cheesman (42:13.733)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (42:25.433)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (42:28.335)
For your business, not just for recruiting.
Joel Cheesman (42:28.475)
Do you th do you think cu where where do you think companies are in in accepting that reality and actually even encouraging it? Because we had a story years ago about a Sher and Williams employee, who would go on and he would mix paints and he would put like strawberries and shit in in the paint. And Sher and Williams fired him. And at the time I thought, that's so dumb. You're getting so much free advertising and great great content.
JT O'Donnell (42:41.571)
Yeah, remember that one. Pink colours.
JT O'Donnell (42:52.323)
It's ridiculous.
Joel Cheesman (42:56.643)
I don't if they had to make that decision today, I don't know if they would fire that kid. I think they would be like, do more of what you're doing. Is that your take as well that companies are actually encouraging more activity on social?
JT O'Donnell (43:01.935)
No.
JT O'Donnell (43:07.269)
I'm excited to see more and more companies understanding its power because traditional advertising channels, talking about today's the advertising theme, right? ads on TV and things like that aren't doing as well. Social's where it's at. Organic social is even more powerful. You're crazy not to build that plan and teach your employees how to create good, authentic content. You should be teaching them the guardrails. And there are, by the way, we're further enough along to know that there's five types of content that work the best.
We know everything we need to know about how to avoid it looking like AI slap. There's such an easy 45 minute tutorial that you can give people and give them the guardrails to succeed. I just, you know, it's it's a shame that companies aren't doing it. I do think it's better now than it was, not as severe, but I think more likely people are sitting on a completely untapped marketing asset, which is, you know, their loss.
Joel Cheesman (43:55.672)
Yep. But you c you can see if if my company makes bicycles and you're creating content about I'm investing in how I'm flipping houses, like that has nothing to do with my business. You're doing it outside like that that should be okay from your perspective. The company should be fine with that. Okay. All right.
JT O'Donnell (44:14.489)
Yes, one hundred percent. Yeah. Did the company wait a minute, am I getting a stipend for being a marketing arm of the company? You want to pay me to be a market like pay me extra. and by the way, there's an X thousand dollars a year for you not to do any other kind of content because I see you as the brand. If you think your employees are the brand, pay them to be the brand. If not, it's none of your business.
Joel Cheesman (44:28.814)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (44:33.271)
Okay. So so companies need to be comfortable with we're your nine to five, but we're not your only thing. Okay.
JT O'Donnell (44:39.949)
Right. I'm being paid to work here nine to five. What I do five to nine, my business.
Joel Cheesman (44:44.259)
As long as it's outside of the company, company time. So here's here's my question to you, because I know that you're I go to I go to you for all things LinkedIn. In a in a world of so LinkedIn's hiring assistant is from all accounts that I hear is is very successful. People love this sort of automated sourcing, read outreach interview like thing. They love it. Now that's automation. At some point, LinkedIn is gonna have that for the job seeker.
JT O'Donnell (44:59.683)
Mm. Very
JT O'Donnell (45:05.477)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (45:10.607)
where I have an automated reply to companies and have like that that connection I think is happening if it hasn't happened already. So in a world where humans are checking what you're doing, are are they checking content? Are they checking just the profile? Like how does how does the automated hiring assistant stuff impact LinkedIn and and what happens there from your perspective?
JT O'Donnell (45:34.071)
Yeah. Well, first of all, it can read what you've written in the feed, but as they've learned quickly, people are creating a lot of AI slop. You've probably noticed that videos are now automatically being overlaid with subtitles. Right. So if you go and look at it, that there's a reason because subtitles, transcription can be read by AI, can't it? So when you start to think about that where that's going, I think if I was behind doors, and you know, I I'm not gonna name any names, but if I was behind doors on LinkedIn right now, I would be saying, how do we get our feed to look more like
Joel Cheesman (45:46.479)
Yep. Yep. Transcription. Yep.
Joel Cheesman (45:52.526)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (46:03.907)
TikTok and Instagram. I want video. I want authentication. And how do I make people do it on my iOS or my Android? Because that is automatic authentication built into it. Right. So now I know that that's not a fake video. That's a person. That person's talking about what they know. I can then match that to opportunity. LinkedIn doesn't want to make you an influencer. It wants to match you to opportunity. So the more you give it in your feed, the more it can match you. That's the reality. And it's going to continue to build that way. So
Joel Cheesman (46:10.329)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
JT O'Donnell (46:31.149)
I see that as a future. What most people are sleeping on, and I hope you record this in the predictions episode, is that LinkedIn now understands where its big money is going to come is not from recruiting. That recruiting product's awesome, but that's not where their money is going to come from. Nope. They are now going to be the platform where millions upon millions of people can make money off their knowledge. They are going to monetize the individual. The knowledge creator economy, according to Gartner, is $480 billion and grow.
Joel Cheesman (46:41.835)
Okay. Advertising? Well no? Okay.
Joel Cheesman (46:53.455)
Okay.
JT O'Donnell (46:59.415)
They now realize that all of you have a business of one and that you could be on there monetizing in multiple different ways, the same way people do on TikTok or Instagram, but with your business knowledge, with your industry knowledge, with your skill set knowledge. Right. And so they want to give people that opportunity. And I think you're gonna see some very interesting
Joel Cheesman (47:08.069)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (47:15.129)
What does that look like? Is that is that, hey, I've got I'm posting content about this. If you want my exclusive stuff, pay me ten dollars a month and then LinkedIn takes two dollars of that. Is that the model or is it hey
JT O'Donnell (47:25.751)
It shouldn't be hard for you to it. That's just one possibility. You could be running a podcast on it, you could be running a subscription service on it, you could be doing all these things. Like people are already doing it on LinkedIn, but where does it go? Off LinkedIn. Right. So I don't know what those will specifically be. The moment I do know, I will tell you. But I just watching them and how they think, they're sitting on a literally billions of dollars that could be monetized.
Joel Cheesman (47:38.959)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (47:52.293)
Yeah.
JT O'Donnell (47:52.687)
That's already there. That the the audience and the matching is already there. You just need to give individuals the tools. That gets exciting to me because I do believe we're in the digital renaissance. We're coming into a time where people are gonna be able to l make money in a lot of different ways. I just look at what's happening with AI and we're coming into this very cool second renaissance. And you're this is the one platform where that could be helpful.
Joel Cheesman (48:01.06)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (48:13.029)
So you're saying it's a profit deal?
JT O'Donnell (48:15.779)
I think so.
Joel Cheesman (48:18.235)
All right, let's play a little who'd you rather? If you don't know the rules, here's a here's what we do. We talk about two companies that have recently raised some money. Look at their business models, and then JT and I will both pick who'd we rather? You ready to play, JT? All right, first up we have Jack and Jill.
JT O'Donnell (48:39.301)
I'm ready.
Joel Cheesman (48:44.185)
When up a hill, a GENTIC recruitment startup. Jack and Jill announced it has raised $40 million in a Series A round of funding. The London based company, which was founded in early 2025, utilizes conversational AI to completely automate the initial stages of recruitment. That is Jack and Jill. And in this corner, we have Boomerang HR. They've raised $12.7 million in a seed round.
The platform helps companies maintain relationships with former employees, turning them into a network for rehires, referrals, and potential sales opportunities. So, JT, Jack and Jill or Boomerang HR, who would you rather?
JT O'Donnell (49:35.097)
I don't like the name, but I like the concept. I'm going Jack and Jill. and I'll tell you why. I I think it's a bigger play than going back to your alumni because a part of your alumni are gonna leave you and never wanna work for you again. You know, there's that piece of it there. I think that's a very specific application. conversational AI is something I've been working a lot in right now, and I have a product that's almost complete and di I never dreamed.
Joel Cheesman (49:46.991)
Uh-huh.
JT O'Donnell (50:05.143)
it could be that effortless and that conversational. it's very powerful. It's very effective. it's it's we've made so much advancements in that. And that's what people want to do. They just want to have a conversation and they want to get an answer. And as long as the it's the conversational AI is good, you don't care that it's AI. And that is what I've learned through building Mira. so she's been it's been eye opening to me. And I
Joel Cheesman (50:15.29)
Uh-huh.
JT O'Donnell (50:28.909)
I think that's something that job seekers really, truly want. Like, can I just talk to somebody is the most common thing a job seeker will say. Can I just talk to somebody? So if it's built properly, they're gonna get to talk to somebody. And you know, to me that's super powerful. So they got my vote.
Joel Cheesman (50:42.455)
Is is is your anti boomerang more complicated than just people don't want to work there? So why have in the loop?
JT O'Donnell (50:50.999)
No, I just think I you know, it's not that I don't think the business is gonna work. I'm just looking at both and saying, Where do I think the scale and the bigger opportunities? Exactly. To me, so no discount to them, it's just a smaller play. I'm I'm going bigger.
Joel Cheesman (50:56.163)
Okay, who'd you rather? That's the game. Who'd you rather? Who'd you rather? Okay.
All right, JT's check it taking Jack and Jill home for a little a little hooja rather. okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna start this off with a history lesson.
JT O'Donnell (51:13.047)
no.
Joel Cheesman (51:15.747)
So when I worked at at jobbing, now ownership changed everything. they had you don't this is going back. They had what's what was called jobbing video. So video was really hot and for a time people actually made their own video player. Like they coded that shit, they maintained it like it was a pain in the ass. Now YouTube was around, but
JT O'Donnell (51:21.83)
my god.
Joel Cheesman (51:43.718)
There was a time where we weren't sure if is it going to be YouTube? Is it going to be Vimeo? Is it going to be some other secondary player? So people just say, you what, we're going to make our own our own player. Now, over the years, YouTube added you know, 4K, different speeds, transcription, like they added all this stuff that a company like Google can do. And a job board, not so much. Like we can play the video, but my god, now we got to have 4K and mobile friendly and all this stuff.
So what eventually happened was they moved all their video over to YouTube. They saved all the money on hosting the video. They saved all the money on development. Like they they crushed it with that. so that was the decision that they made. So when I look at Jack and Jill, the parallel to that is I was on online, I'm online every day, but I saw a perplexity ad that was like, get a job. And perplexity, which is
Little smaller than Anthropic and Open AI and Gemini and some of the others, but it's in that sort of universe. You put in your you you put in your LinkedIn profile and then perplexity went to work. They went to apply to jobs for you, like source the the jobs and everything. So my point is when the history is written on this automation stuff and conversational whatever, are am I placing my bets on a niche player?
With a few hundred you know, a few million dollars in the bank, or am I putting it on anthropic perplexity, open AI, Gemini, et cetera? And ever all day I'm gonna go with the big player with the more resources and the better ability. I think Google could do this no problem. They already have the jobs, they have all the data, they know more about you than Jack and Jill ever will. So that's my problem with Jack and Jill. Now let's go to boomerang. I think it's a good idea in theory.
Right. you dump a girl. Maybe I was at the wrong time in my life. There was a different opportunity. Like just things didn't work out. But a few years later, you know, I really liked her. I'm gonna call her again. Right. That almost never works. Probably never works. It's never worked for me. I don't know if it's ever worked for you, JT. So the parallel to that is okay, when people leave a job, it's usually cause the something's not right. Like,
JT O'Donnell (53:53.252)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (54:03.482)
I got laid off, my boss is an ass, the business is failing, whatever it is. Now, according to Glassdoor, I can't believe Glassdoor has made an appearance twice on this show, but according to Glassdoor, 71% of people who leave a job have a have an improving opinion of that employer. Now, I think that's just natural your brain filtering out the bad memories and remembering the good stuff. But there is there is a universe of people.
JT O'Donnell (54:13.364)
Ha ha
JT O'Donnell (54:26.149)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (54:31.023)
Who either the company grew or pivoted or there it just it wasn't a fit and it didn't work out, who still like the company, but they parted in good on good terms, who down the road might be open to an opportunity. It's a small number. I think it's probably less than 20, 25. But whereas I think Jack and Jill is gonna get squashed by a big AI player, I do think that boomerang.
HR does have a better chance for success. So for that reason, I'm gonna choose boomerang HR. And there you have it. okay. I didn't change your mind.
JT O'Donnell (55:07.181)
Right, I wanna go back I wanna punch a hole in your theory around Jack and Jill.
Not at all. You reinforce my my theory. I I love that like I get your point. Like, hey, these big ones could build anything they want. But do you remember when Google said they were gonna wipe out everything because they were gonna build the place, the job board? How'd that go? These big companies do do the things that they do well. They should allow other businesses to build big, beautiful businesses off of them. You look at Jack and Jill and they build the right large language model, which I know personally because
Joel Cheesman (55:15.629)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (55:35.78)
Okay.
JT O'Donnell (55:40.761)
you know, of what I'm doing in career coaching and the large language model we've built, our AI products kill other people's because they don't have that. They don't have the specialty. This is where the brains behind the bots matter. So I think where Jack and Jill's gonna win if the right people are in place, is that that conversational AI is going to be so rich in its large language model and what they're doing to it, they'll be far ahead, package it up, marketing, money spent, great little 200 million, 300 million dollar business.
Joel Cheesman (55:42.606)
Okay.
JT O'Donnell (56:06.455)
Off of the backs of whoever they're using, whichever AI tool they're using. And that AI company should be fine with it because they're making money off the tokens. So let it go. Right. So to me, that's where I see the job growth coming with companies like that. That gets me super excited. and that's where you're wrong, Jewel. Sorry, you're wrong.
Joel Cheesman (56:18.991)
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (56:26.179)
I I see a future where people adapt agents and agents just become the shit that we do in life. Whether it's I want to travel to Europe, like figure it out for me and gr recommend it, or I need a job, go find me a job. Like I don't I I I just think like the monolithic agent provider, I think the battle will be is my agent open AI, is my agent grok, is my age like to me, that's the competition, and whoever wins that.
JT O'Donnell (56:52.709)
But but yeah, but then when you talk buy versus build, one of those biggies comes along and grabs Jack and Jill for a pretty penny and tucks it right in. Right? So they just then they don't have to build it themselves. They just go grab what somebody already built out there on their platform. So again, so much opportunity. That's what excites me about right now. I know there's a lot of bad going on, but we're talking about really cool stuff that's coming down the pike.
Joel Cheesman (56:59.835)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (57:14.553)
It is very cool. And if the AI doesn't kill us all, we'll we'll be able to watch watch the show. All right, guys. That is another episode of Who Would You Rather? Stay tuned. We we'll be right back to talk some Bernie Sanders and the work week.
JT O'Donnell (57:15.929)
Mm-hmm.
We're good.
Joel Cheesman (57:34.203)
That's right. Sydney Sweeney, Bernie Sanders, and LinkedIn, Glassdoor. Here we go. Here we go. All right, here's the news. a new bill introduced by Senators Bernie Sanders and Mark Tacano, both Democrats, proposes a gradual reduction of the standard work week from forty hours to thirty-two hours over four years. The 32 hour work week act, that's very creative, aims to benefit working families.
JT O'Donnell (57:38.137)
What? The thumbnail is gonna be really interesting for the podcast this week.
Joel Cheesman (58:03.034)
By lowering the overtime threshold and preventing employers from cutting pay or benefits. What is this? Europe? JT, is America ready for such crazy ideas?
JT O'Donnell (58:16.649)
Not only are they ready, it's already working. So in 2018, I took my company from a 40 hour work week to a 35, seven hours a day, totally flexible. Just tell us when you're gonna be here, when you're not. Pandemic hit. We never went back to an office. My team retains a 35 hour work week. Tell me when you're in, tell me when you're out. And it works beautifully. Productivity went through the roof in the first year, right? Retention is very high in my company.
And the performance level and I think the satisfaction people have is unparalleled. I we do not need to be working those hours. We weren't meant to be in front of a computer. A lot of those jobs that are in front of a computer like that, you weren't meant to be on a computer eight hours a day. You just weren't. And so I I I am all for it. I've seen it work in practice. It's amazing. yeah, it's something I hope they pass, I'll be honest.
Joel Cheesman (59:04.421)
So the so the the the pushback would be, yeah, I I don't have to be in the the office that long, but I'm always plugged in. I've always got to answer emails and slacks and texts and like I work more than ever before, even though if officially I don't work as much. Like what do you what do you say about that?
JT O'Donnell (59:19.523)
I agree. I think part of the things that I did as a manager was recognize that I had to cap, you know, when I asked for things, right? So I I I love what I do. I do work on the weekends, but if I schedule emails, I schedule emails to show up in my team's inbox after 8 a.m. on Monday, right? Like and not after 5 PM. I'm not texting anybody. So it then becomes choosing your manager wisely and making sure that they're not abusing that process. That's a much different problem that the government can't control, right? But at least putting a parameter in place that says, look, legally, I'm 35 hours.
Joel Cheesman (59:33.445)
Uh-huh.
JT O'Donnell (59:48.865)
starts to give people some boundaries that they can work off of to help with that. so you know, to me it's a step in the right direction.
Joel Cheesman (59:53.583)
Yeah.
As long as there's a really strict corporate, hey, the lights the lights go off at five, the computers go off, like we're not expecting you. I think that's a really hard thing to expect. I think most CEOs, small businesses are like, we need to make money, we need to survive, you need to be available to work. like I I I worked at a company where the vacation time was like voluntary. Like if you need time, take it. There wasn't any
You get two weeks, and if you don't take it, you lose it. So you need to take it. And what happened was nobody took vacation because everyone was like, I'm gonna look bad if I take vacation, even though it was like, take whatever time you want. Like that was never the reality. The reality was like very genius, very evil genius, like, you can take all the time you want, but nobody did because they were scared about looking bad.
JT O'Donnell (01:00:49.377)
It's funny you say that. So we my team gets the week between Christmas and New Year's off and the week of fourth of July off already. They then get two additional weeks of vacation, not PTO, but vacation. But you cannot carry those, you can only carry one week forward. So my whole point is you're going at least three weeks a year, you're out. Would rather see you use up all of them, plus all your holidays and right, because of that, like exactly what you said.
Joel Cheesman (01:00:55.835)
Mm-hmm.
JT O'Donnell (01:01:15.417)
I want you out. I want you refreshed. I've just seen so much evidence that when your brain isn't burnt out, you're gonna make better decisions. How many times are people working around the clock probably doing something stupid? You know what I mean? Building something bad and like because they weren't given a chance to rest. We're not thinking about, you know, the the power of that, that compressed time, that that peak time, and then allowing people's brains to refuel. Once you've moved over, I'll just tell you, once you've built a business like it, you never go back because you just see how much better it performs. But
Joel Cheesman (01:01:23.92)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:01:35.983)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:01:41.359)
Yeah. And retention levels and satisfaction all go up. Yeah. You you you're a way better boss than Chad is. Chad's horrible. Chad Chad's a slave driver. All right. Time for another history lesson.
JT O'Donnell (01:01:45.763)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:01:56.752)
So in in 1930, kids, economist John Maidard Keynes published a famous essay essay entitled Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren. This was 1930. Well, we're about a hundred years on, and he was spot on about everything except you want to guess? The hours that we work. Keynes predicted that we would work about a 15 hour work week.
A hundred years on from nineteen thirty. We're not close to fifteen hours a week. so it in terms of technology, global wealth, like he was so spot on and all that. But the work week and the amount of time that we work, and again, I would say not only are we working 40 hours a week at at the office or hybrid or whatever, but we're also working on the weekends if we get an email from our boss, we have something going on. So I think this has to be a law.
JT O'Donnell (01:02:32.621)
I'd like to be. God.
Joel Cheesman (01:02:56.143)
to take effect. I I'm with you. I think that with AI, with productivity, like studies show if you have a four hour work week, if you have you know, three hour work three hour week work days where you work more hours, but then you get two like all these sort of ideas seem to not impact work productivity at all. In fact they improve it. so I think it's gonna take a law and it start at the federal end and like your if you have a federal job or state job, like you will only work
X amount hour, thirty five hours a week or whatever it is. I that that's probably what has to happen in order for it to take hold. But small businesses, it's not gonna happen.
JT O'Donnell (01:03:36.813)
You know, I wish it's funny when the pandemic hit and we all went remote and everybody realized how much they enjoyed working remote, especially executives. you know, they allowed remote. Now they're worried about productivity, which I understand, but they're still hanging on to flex flex time and hybrid, right? Because they still really appreciate the flexibility. So
Joel Cheesman (01:03:54.512)
I think a lot of it is a facade. I think people are working more. I think they're working after hours. I think they're always plugged in. Yeah. So so yeah, to put in laws. Yes. Yep. It's it's you saying you're gonna you take these days off because they don't roll over. Like if you don't use them, you lose them. So yeah, you're you're a trend setter. Much like my dad jokes are setting trends all over all over the world.
JT O'Donnell (01:03:58.605)
You do. Then more reason to put yeah. More reason to put it to thirty five hours. 'Cause force people into putting laws in place to get them comfortable with it.
JT O'Donnell (01:04:12.579)
Thank you.
JT O'Donnell (01:04:18.271)
jeez make stop. Make stop.
Joel Cheesman (01:04:22.917)
JT, you love Don't s just stop. JT, what do you what do you call a sad strawberry? What do you call a sad strawberry?
Joel Cheesman (01:04:34.859)
A blueberry.
JT O'Donnell (01:04:35.141)
I don't know, something
Joel Cheesman (01:04:40.421)
Time for time for a white wine.
JT O'Donnell (01:04:41.027)
Cute Why why?
see you in Nashville, everyone. See you in Nashville. We out.
Joel Cheesman (01:04:47.769)
See you in Nashville. We out.
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