Indeed Goes For The Kill
- Chad Sowash
- Jun 12
- 51 min read
The Trust Economy & The AI Invasion
This week on HR’s most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash, Mo, and Lieven team up for a wild ride across the shifting sands of global talent acquisition, dystopian corporate tracking, and the great AI arms race. If you thought the job market couldn’t get any weirder, pull up a chair and pour a glass of Guinness—you’re going to need it.
Here is a taste of what the crew tackles in this jam-packed episode:
Indeed Goes In For The Kill
Think your programmatic vendors and recruitment marketing agencies have your back? Think again.
IBM Says "Okay, Boomer"
Can an algorithm erase 24 years of loyal company experience? conspiracy, or just incredibly biased automation?
ChatGPT’s New Feature: Helpful Tool or "AI Job Slop"?
OpenAI announced a major partnership with Indeed, Upwork, and Appcast to introduce conversational job searching inside ChatGPT.
Meta’s Dystopian Workforce Training
Mark Zuckerberg is back with a new initiative called "America's Workforce Academy," pouring $115 million into training skilled trades. Sounds altruistic, right? Not so fast.
Bonus Content: Stick around to hear why Mo is deeply obsessed with a fictional Amazon Prime hockey captain, why Lieven refuses to disclose his salary to Europe, and a tech-themed dad joke that Mo actually understands (eventually).
Are we descending into a corporate tech dystopia, or is there a way to build ethical guardrails before the robots completely take over?
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Chad Sowash (00:30.723)
Shit, I'm supposed to be talking. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. It's HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Chad "Portugal Day" Sowash.
Maureen Clough (00:40.588)
And I'm Maureen, aka Mo. I'm in love with Garrett Graham, Wiley Clough.
Lieven (00:49.049)
And I'm Lieven "Europe tells me to be transparent about my salary, but I won't" Van Nieuwenhuyze
Maureen Clough (00:54.643)
Ha ha ha
Chad Sowash (00:55.013)
Or you need to. And on this week's show, indeed goes in for the kill. IBM says, okay, boomer. Chat GPT learns the call is coming from inside the house, and Mark Zuckerberg just wants to help America get back to work. And if you believe that, I have a data center in Mansfield, Ohio. I want to sell you. Let's do this.
Maureen Clough (01:10.636)
Ha ha.
Chad Sowash (01:22.266)
Welcome back. It's been forever since we've been on the show together, Mo. it's been way been about a month or so since you've been on, right, Lieven?
Lieven (01:24.345)
It's been forever since we've been on the show together, Mo. but we but on most of our shows since you've been on, right, maybe? At least.
Maureen Clough (01:27.554)
So good to see him. Yeah. Too long. Too long.
Chad Sowash (01:32.797)
At least, yeah. Yeah. Too long, too long. So so w as I had said, today is Portugal Day. I'm sure you all know what Portugal Day is, not. I actually had to jump into Wikip Wikipedia to find out myself today. Although I am sporting my Portuguese jersey. It's a national holiday and I'm here working. So I want this to be on the record, okay?
Maureen Clough (01:41.486)
yeah. Americans are are famous for knowing that.
Lieven (01:46.171)
Yeah.
Chad
I am sporting my Portuguese jersey. It's a national holiday and I'm here working, so I want this to be on the record. Okay.
Maureen Clough (01:55.054)
So American of you, Chad.
Chad Sowash (01:58.12)
Getting over time, double time, I think yeah no shit no shit so what what's up with this what's up with this this nickname what what was that
Maureen Clough (02:01.816)
So American.
Lieven (02:03.249)
So what up with this what's up with this this nickname but what with that? Europe tells me to be transparent about my salary. Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (02:07.944)
yeah.
Chad Sowash (02:11.225)
yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into that. I'm talking about the hockey thing. What was the hockey thing?
Maureen Clough (02:14.286)
Yeah, so Garrett Graham is not a real person. We all have to be telling ourselves this as a mantra. Garrett Graham is not real. He's a fictional character. He is a hockey captain on the not the first hockey show of the year for everybody to obsess over, but actually the second. It's called Off Campus. It's the only good thing about Amazon. Amazon Prime released this this show called Off Campus and it's all about this love story between the hockey captain and this
Lieven (02:15.419)
Huh.
Chad Sowash (02:29.509)
That's why you're
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (02:43.33)
This unassuming girl, you know, the girl who they pretend is unattractive, who is actually very No, no, this is not heated rivalry. There is another one. There's another one, and it's taking fire over across social media. And there are so many hilarious videos out there where it's like millennial midlife, you know, moms who are like,
Chad Sowash (02:47.985)
Wait a minute. This isn't the this isn't the gay this isn't the gay this isn't the gay hockey player thing.
Maureen Clough (03:05.341)
I'm I'm falling for a fictional hockey hockey player. It's like a it's a very interesting show in that it is written it was written by women, directed by women. And so they wrote all these male characters in the way we would like love them to actually be. Yeah. And I'm like, it's such a great portrayal of like masculinity that's super healthy. Anyway, it's it's a great show. You definitely should not watch it around your kids or on an airplane unless you want people to look at you and like think think something else. So
Chad Sowash (03:09.539)
my god.
Chad Sowash (03:17.713)
Fantasies.
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (03:34.08)
Not safe for work, but it's an incredible show and yeah, we all are having a blast watching it. Join on in. Yep.
Chad Sowash (03:41.275)
You I you enjoy that. You enjoy that. I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure Levin. I'm sure Levin's watching it as well.
Lieven (03:46.417)
Nope. Nope, sorry.
Chad Sowash (03:51.153)
But y you were talking about pay transparency and I know that.
Lieven (03:52.869)
Pay transparency and I know that. Is it type of shout-out? Yeah, but the shout-out actually goes about the Europe telling me to be transparent about my salary. So and actually it's a good thing. The European Pay Transparency Directive was designed to make compensation fair and clear and it's harder for companies to hide behind behind vague expressions like a competitive salary. They need to be open, they need to be in the open about what they're paying.
Chad Sowash (03:56.26)
Is is a is your shout out. So go ahead jump into that. What are you talking about?
Chad Sowash (04:09.735)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (04:19.207)
Nothing away from the
Lieven (04:22.883)
And it does not mean that I'm supposed to talk about my personal salary, but it does mean that companies will need to be transparent and they have to be transparent about pay criteria, gender pay gaps, equal pay for equal work, etc. So this was supposed to be implemented by June seventh. But Europe being Europe, we have actually four four countries which are more or less fully okay with the deadline. It's Slovakia, Slovakia.
Chad Sowash (04:41.317)
And you don't know the small girls. I used to think about
Lieven (04:51.139)
Italy, Lithuania and Malta. So the twenty three other member states are lagging behind and probably still working on convincing companies to be open, telling them how to be open, telling them what open has to be, etc. But I think it's a good idea and I like it because I wanna know what my colleagues make.
Chad Sowash (04:53.538)
that's good.
Chad Sowash (05:10.334)
Yeah. Well those th those other countries are pr still trying to implement the electronic passport control. That's why.
Maureen Clough (05:18.165)
Boy.
Lieven (05:19.131)
For example, yeah. That's maybe one of the reasons, could be.
Maureen Clough (05:23.265)
getting real weird out there, isn't it?
Chad Sowash (05:24.305)
Yes, and yes. It is yeah, it's it's it's a little weird. my shout out is it's almost time for the World Cup, and I'm going to use my shout-out this week for Omar Arten. He's the 34-year-old Somalian referee who was sent who is set to be the first Somali to referee at a World Cup final, but was denied entry to the US in Miami on Monday, even though he has a
Diplomatic passport. I don't even wanna know what one of those look like. A diplomatic passport and a single entry US visa. but in a very professional and measured fashion, Arton said that he's looking forward to refereeing in the twenty thirty World Cup. So this is a shout out to Omar Arten as I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing you referee in twenty thirty in the World Cup here in Portugal.
Lieven (06:14.981)
As I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing you referee in twenty thirty in the World Cup here in Portugal. Yeah. Is it going to be in Portugal? I don't even know.
Maureen Clough (06:22.989)
Is that worse happening? I know nothing about football.
Chad Sowash (06:26.237)
Yep. Portugal, Spain, and Morocco.
Lieven (06:30.193)
Okay. No. Why not?
Maureen Clough (06:32.509)
Awesome. Yeah, you'll be there. Sounds pretty sick. I think we need to have a chat and cheese retreat. Yeah. It's gotta happen. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (06:37.905)
Damn straight. good call. And they're they're they're building fast rail from Lisbon to Madrid for that specific event. Yeah, so you'll be able to you'll be able yeah, you'll be able to go from Lisbon to Madrid in three hours. That will be amazing. I can't I can't wait. Yeah. It's yep, that is, it is. Mo, what you got?
Lieven (06:38.553)
Mm.
Lieven (06:49.219)
More specific event, yeah. Serious? Cool. Yeah. Yeah. And I love both both cities, so
Maureen Clough (06:57.933)
It's so awesome. Madrid's a sweet city.
Maureen Clough (07:04.341)
Man, your life. Your life, dude. well, I'm gonna shout out someone who I think is really important and and and and an entity, an institution that's really important. It's called the Center for Humane Technology. And one of its co-founders is Tristan Harris. And recently I've been hearing a few of their podcasts, and their podcast is called Your Undivided Attention, which as we well know is very hard to get these days. But they've put out a series of different episodes that have talked about
Lieven (07:27.921)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (07:31.278)
How this this sort of arms race towards AI development is so potentially cataclysmic for literally everyone. And we could find ourselves in a real existential crisis, right? Like it it's kind of like Terminator stuff. Like I can't believe we're talking about it. And I think that's part of part of why this is so hard to digest is like we've looked at this stuff as science fiction, but like it's real, like Claude Mythos. Did you guys hear about that? Like the the the model that leaked out. I mean, it's crazy stuff that's happening right now.
Chad Sowash (07:53.659)
Originally, but that's what I mean.
Lieven (07:57.009)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (08:01.333)
And so his assertion and Tristan's assertion on all these shows is essentially like this is the one thing that should unify literally all of us. Because if you want to live and you want your kids to live, we need to develop some safeguards and guardrails around this whole AI arms situation. Like we should have some sort of red line agreement across different nations. Because if one country develops something in the hopes that they get there first and it has
Chad Sowash (08:15.835)
Yeah, we'll close it, don't worry.
Maureen Clough (08:28.969)
adverse outcomes and it's it's you know potentially dangerous to humanity, that then leaks through the border. It it goes across the globe like that, right? And so we need to have some sort of agreement. And and I know in the wake of Mythos there was some sort of agreement around different big financial institutions and leaders and what have you, but we need that it on a like massive geopolitical scale, or we could find ourselves in a good bit of trouble. So anyway,
Chad Sowash (08:54.52)
I'm trying to.
Maureen Clough (08:56.181)
I I point that out because I think everybody should listen to these podcasts and to this to what they're doing at the Humane Center for Technology, because I think it's critically important. And we need to elevate we need to elevate AI ethics and AI regulation to the top matter of import for literally all of us. And we need to tell all of our politicians that we like this is what we care about above all else, because if we don't get this right, literally nothing else matters. So anyway, that's my two cents.
Chad Sowash (08:58.033)
Yeah, I'll scan will get the bit. you can show it.
Chad Sowash (09:08.251)
Maybe maybe over an hour. Okay, I'll bring that an eye. Okay. Yeah, they're just trying to get the money for their data centers that they're trying to build in their in their in their states. and now I know why Tristan hasn't returned my emails. I've been calling him Tristan.
Maureen Clough (09:26.116)
Mm, yeah. Mm-hmm.
What's up?
Maureen Clough (09:34.697)
I emailed him too. He didn't remain me back either.
Chad Sowash (09:36.018)
I've been yeah, I've been calling him Tristan. Yeah, that's that's my fault. I got it wrong. I gotta get his name right first. I gotta get his name right. Yes, very, very Hamilton of you to say that. and little little little little Stephen McGrath is is is up next because with little Hamilton you need a little free stuff.
Maureen Clough (09:42.549)
We we gotta keep shooting our shot, Chad. We gotta get on the show. We do.
Lieven (09:46.705)
Yes, very Barry Hamilton of you to say that. And real
Maureen Clough (09:50.133)
Ha ha ha.
Lieven (09:55.569)
Stephen McGrath is is is up next because with Will Hamilton you need more free stuff.
Maureen Clough (10:01.686)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (10:09.981)
This is Moe's favorite part of this show.
Lieven (10:10.863)
Now, you might be wondering why I'm sitting here talking this. The answer is really simple. Because I've not grabbed my free t-shirt from Erinap at Chadcheev.com yet. Let me fix that.
Maureen Clough (10:12.543)
I can't not react like this, Michael.
Maureen Clough (10:23.133)
Chad Sowash (10:24.881)
Thank God.
Maureen Clough (10:27.447)
Whew.
Maureen Clough (10:37.421)
Ha ha
Chad Sowash (10:54.318)
Well she came along with the exact union, so it's helpful thing.
Lieven (10:59.387)
But you can always go for chicken cock, baby. That's right. Not fun, but who comes for chicken cock from the lovely people at Proven Base. Now, you're not going to get any of this stuff, unless you go to chadcheese dot com forward slash free news today.
Maureen Clough (11:16.695)
So I gotta ask you, Chad, how much did you pay him to take his shirt off on the internet every week? Like I gotta I gotta know. He does it for free. That's that means.
Chad Sowash (11:17.165)
Years go by, you can't see.
I I I don't have to pay him and I've got to pay him to put a shirt on. Yes, I've got to pay him to put a shirt on. Hopefully it's a Chad and Cheese shirt, but I've got to pay him to put it on. Jesus.
Lieven (11:23.897)
have to pay him a I've gotta pay him to put a shirt on. Yes. I've got to pay him to put a shirt on. Hopefully it's Chad G shirt. But I've got to pay him to put it on. he tanks only fans is a rot on the internet.
Maureen Clough (11:34.005)
Sounds like it will be.
So funny. yeah, yeah. Let's go, Stephen.
Chad Sowash (11:42.013)
I don't yeah, I don't even want to go into that. yeah. So in e even more Steven.
So as you know, travel is always sponsored by Shaker Recruitment Marketing. first and foremost, does this whole AI thing have you tied up in knots, waking up in cold sweats? Well, just hop over to shaker.com and let the experts handle it there. That's shaker.com. And where are we traveling? we're going to wreckfest. Yeah, we're going to England July second. Mo are you going? come on. You you got so excited.
Maureen Clough (12:20.265)
No, I wanna go so badly. I know I'm so jealous. I wanna come next year so badly. Gotta plan it. FOMO. Big, big homo. man.
Chad Sowash (12:27.685)
It Levin's so close. He d Levin doesn't even come. He's like he well, he comes in yeah.
Lieven (12:32.312)
July second, it's Rockwester. It's the best rock festival in the world, really. The best in the world. It's in Belgium, Rock Rockwechter four days, and it starts July second. And I only missed one episode since I was fifteen years old, and that's two thousand and ten, when my twins were born. And then people tell me it's your own fault, you should have calculated better, but they were born three weeks early, so it's their fault, and I still blame them.
Maureen Clough (12:37.643)
Ha ha.
Chad Sowash (12:38.204)
Really?
Chad Sowash (12:56.005)
And you should. And you should. yeah. So July 2nd, kids. That's right. We're gonna be in England at Nebworth Park all damn day. Joel and I are gonna be on the disrupt stage. You're gonna have a a great time all day there. Emmy is going to be on the innovate stage, which I think is is right next to to disrupt. So you can jump back and forth if you want to. but if you've never been to a recfest, definitely you got to check it out. Go to recfest.com.
Lieven (12:57.721)
Of course.
Lieven (13:01.487)
being Queensland at Network Park at Band Day. Joel and I are gonna be on the disrupt stage. You're gonna have a a great time all day there. Emmy is going to be on the innovate stage, which I think is is right next to Disrupt. So you can jump back and forth if you want to.
But if you've never been to a recfest, definitely gotta check it out.com. Generally what happens is this is mostly TA practitioners, they bring their whole teams for a game away of learning and that's right, partying kids. That's what happens and it's it's a great time to rec fest me. You've been there before. I've been there and I loved it. It's like it's like a music festival. It lacks some music, but it's fun.
Chad Sowash (13:21.959)
com generally what happens is this is mostly TA practitioners they bring their whole teams for a day away of learning and that's right partying kids that's what happens and it's a it's a great time at Recfest. You've been there before leaving. What'd you think?
Maureen Clough (13:43.517)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (13:45.661)
Music usually DJs. At the end of the day, people are just they're pissed and yeah, ugh.
Lieven (13:48.222)
Music, usually DJs at the end of the Yeah, yeah. But there's so much so much stages and they're not putting decent musicians on them. But you get a stage, which is cool also. Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (13:52.843)
Ha ha
Chad Sowash (13:59.766)
yeah, we get a stage. We get yeah, I'll get a stage. but after that, I'm headed to this is more personal than it is, Chad and Cheese stuff, but I'm headed to Mallorca. My best buddy Chris Long is getting married. yeah, another another one, please. getting married. So we're we're having a stag do. Having a stag do in Mallorca. So we're gonna be in at wreckfest drinking our asses off, and then a bunch of us are gonna get on a flight, go to Mallorca.
Lieven (14:08.101)
to Majorca. My best buddy is getting married. yeah, another another interview. married. So we're we're having a stagdo. Having a stagdo in Majorca. So we're gonna be in at Wreckfest, jerking our asses off. And then a bunch of us are gonna get on the flight, but a Majorca continue the party, the Wreckfest party. Even Jamie Leonard, who is CEO over at Wreckfest
Chad Sowash (14:27.815)
continue the party, the Recfest party. Even Jamie Leonard, who is CEO over at Recfest, he's gonna be there. So yeah, our Libvers are gonna be they're gonna be in trouble. They're gonna be in trouble. but we'll have plenty of time though. This is beautiful. We'll have plenty of time to get our livers back in shape for the e recruitment congress in Amsterdam. What's what what's happening there? Any updates, Leva?
Lieven (14:36.761)
He's gonna be there. So yeah, our livers are gonna they're they're gonna be in trouble. They're be in trouble. but we'll have plenty of time though. This is beautiful. We'll have plenty of time to get our livers back in shape for the e Recruit Congress in Amsterdam. What's what what's happening there? Any updates leave it? lots of updates, in fact. So
Maureen Clough (14:40.951)
Y you're in for it, man. Serious.
Chad Sowash (14:58.555)
Bring
Lieven (15:00.003)
There is no music festival during the e-recruitment congress, so you definitely can make it. No reason not to. It's October 6th in Amsterdam, like it was last time, and at Musikgebal, which is a beautiful venue. It's yes. Once again it's about music. It's really the team. Okay. But we are going to show you how robots are coming after our jobs. So I've been talking about yeah, we've been talking about AI, normal AI, and we are ready.
Chad Sowash (15:02.077)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Sowash (15:10.745)
Zika bow. it's gorgeous. Yes.
Maureen Clough (15:12.557)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (15:22.738)
What?
Lieven (15:27.885)
A greet on AI is going to take tons of white collar jobs, but we always thought blue collar jobs are are okay. But now we're going to demonstrate robots, lots of robots who are actually working at the Congress. They're going to be handing out the gift bags at the Congress, they're going to be putting chairs in a row, they'll just be working next to humans. So that's the start. So the whole idea is it's about AI and also about physical AI. So the the robot stuff. And
Chad Sowash (15:42.83)
Maureen Clough (15:44.89)
those mm mm
Lieven (15:52.911)
I need to cross my fingers. With a bit of luck, we'll have a keynote speaker from Boston Dynamics, you know, the the major company producing those Atlas robots, which are amazing.
Chad Sowash (15:56.062)
yeah. Yeah.
Mm.
Lieven (16:04.089)
Fingers crossed. they're probably the most difficult people to reach in the whole fucking universe, but I'm getting there. and then, and of course we have tons of other great speakers. it's about AI, it's about how AI is going to influence and is influencing human resources, a job, all kinds of different jobs, and how it can make our life easier. It's about augmentation, not necessarily about automation. It's going to be fun. Tons of
Chad Sowash (16:13.689)
Important. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (16:21.146)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lieven (16:31.959)
Best speakers in the world and Chad and Joel are going to be there. So maybe Mo you'll be there as well. I can put you on the guest list if you want to. And yeah, and also good to know the World Employment Confederation is sponsoring the Congress also. So they're going to to organize the global task force on AI the day before, and all those people who are present will be at the conf conference and as well. So if you want to meet people from Adeco Randstad, not only House of HR, but
Chad Sowash (16:35.773)
yeah.
Maureen Clough (16:37.357)
Sounds amazing. I love hanging with robots. Sign me up.
Chad Sowash (16:47.356)
Awesome.
Lieven (17:01.369)
Every major player within recruitment, they all be there. So I'm still looking for some sponsors. If you want to present your product, get in touch. You reach fifty two companies of House of HR and all the others.
Chad Sowash (17:08.583)
you should be. Yeah. That's right.
Maureen Clough (17:09.479)
Love it.
Chad Sowash (17:14.555)
Yeah, yeah. If you wanna get if you wanna get in good with House of HR, you gotta be at the musique about. That place is amazing.
Lieven (17:16.913)
And I can't. And if you sponsor, I like you and I can arrange some stuff later. Yeah. We're in Amsterdam, so I don't wanna know what the later
Chad Sowash (17:24.987)
Ha ha ha.
We're in Amsterdam, so I don't wanna know what the later thing is, but we'll go
Chad Sowash (17:39.43)
All right, kids, Indeed is at it again. So if you are a recruitment marketing agency running job feeds for your clients into Indeed, well, you already probably know this, but Indeed is doing their damnedest to squeeze you out of the equation entirely. And as a matter of fact, Indeed got even closer by publishing a little FAQ called Setting expectations amidst a changing landscape. Sounds ominous, right? Sounds ominous. That came out earlier this week. Lieven and Mo, any ideas? I mean, you guys got to read it. So you want me to keep going? Okay. So I'm gonna I'm gonna dig deep a little bit deeper into this. For the I've got how many points do I have here? I've got four points. First point.
Maureen Clough (18:10.39)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (18:32.771)
Is the job copy crackdown, right? So what indeed said was we are reducing job copies or duplicate roles to deliver a on our promise of quality. So what's really happening is this is a direct assassination attempt on agency managed fees and programmatic vendors, pure and simple. by flagging multi-channel feeds or agency scrapes as "duplicates or clutter", Indeed, is giving themselves the perfect excuse to switch off your client's visibility and say, hey, employer, your agency fucked up. Just give us your feed direct instead, right? So that's number one. Number two is the ecosystem play. What Indeed said was: we are rewarding employers who become true partners. True partners. I love that.
Maureen Clough (19:16.02)
Rough.
Chad Sowash (19:29.693)
Who post jobs directly in our platform or use our ATS API? What they're really saying here is Indeed wants agencies out of the equation entirely. Why? Simple answer because Indeed wants to control the relationship and cut agency commissions out entirely. That's a good 15 to 20 percent direct to Indeed's bottom line, right? Shareholders love that shit. Three budgets may spend faster.
Chad (19:34.179)
Three. Budgets may spend faster. This is fucking hilarious. What indeed said, your budgets may spend f they said this. Your budgets may set spend faster and you will receive yet higher quality candidates. Nobody's ever received higher quality candidates in indeed. They receive masses and masses of whatever. Anyway, what's really happening bullshit. You can't make this up.
Chad Sowash (19:58.984)
This is fucking hilarious. What Indeed said, your budgets may spend fast. They said this. Your budgets may spend faster, and you will receive yet higher quality candidates. Nobody's ever received higher quality candidates from Indeed. They receive masses and masses of whatever. Anyway, what's really happening? Bullshit. You can't make this up.
Maureen Clough (20:18.647)
Ooh.
Chad Sowash (20:25.991)
They're literally saying we're gonna burn through your money faster and give you less volume. But don't worry, it's a feature, not a bug. It's a fee, it's a feature, not a bug. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And last but not yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, because they're indeed. You just have to believe them. It's trust. This is the trust economy, Maureen.
Maureen Clough (20:32.661)
Mm-hmm. It'll be better. Convenient theory, convenient talking point. Mm-hmm. And how do they prove it, right?
Maureen Clough (20:46.771)
Mm-hmm. You just trust. Just trust them. Yeah, that is true. And I have none.
Lieven (20:54.255)
Well we all know Chad that indeed wouldn't do such a thing at all (sarcasm).
Chad Sowash (20:54.491)
So what Indeed said was we are doubling down on trust with bot mitigation and trust and safety practices. What's actually happening?
Chad Sowash (20:59.149)
yes, I agree. Last but not least, I'm calling bot mitigation. So, what Indeed said was we are doubling down on trust with bot mitigation and trust and safety practices. What's actually happening? This is pure irony, kids. This announcement happens after Indeed has announced having AI bots apply to jobs for job seekers, basically having the ability to have Indeed's bots.
Maureen Clough (20:59.981)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (21:17.737)
Kids, this announcement happens after Indeed has announced having AI bots apply to jobs for job seekers. Basically having the ability to have Indeed's bots add more clips and apps, driving up the revenues. So the wheels have been in motion for a very long time on this one. Any comments? I'm gonna go ahead and push myself away from the table and have a little sip of guinness.
Chad Sowash (21:28.675)
add more clicks and apps driving up the revenues. So the wheels have been in motion for a very long time on this one. Any comments? I'm gonna go ahead and push myself away from the table and have a little sip of Guinness.
Maureen Clough (21:33.49)
my gosh. Self-healing.
Maureen Clough (21:43.736)
I mean you just have to go back to incentives every single time, right? Like where's the money and what who benefits from these statements? And of course it's indeed, right? It's their bottom line, it's their shareholders. And th like you said, this is the trust economy, and we have very little and with good reason because we are consistently proven right to be skeptical. but the fact of the matter is these these folks can say whatever they want and it it it's just I don't know, man. I
I would not be super amped about putting putting my dollars behind that based on what you've just told me.
Chad Sowash (22:15.862)
Yeah, well.
Maureen Clough (22:23.339)
that one.
Chad Sowash (22:24.071)
We've been saying it on the pod for years. Indeed does not want to share the sandbox. They don't want to work with recruitment agencies. They'd rather own the direct relationship and keep the 15 to 20 percent themselves, right? they want to kick out the middleman, control a hundred percent of the data. They want to steal your disposition data, and they're doing that right now, kids. and force hiring companies into direct selling relationships where, you know.
Chad Sowash (22:52.621)
So they can jack up prices whenever they want and they're gonna do that with bots. And I say that because the next thing that we're gonna talk about is their image campaign. this is fucking blowing my mind. I've never seen a propaganda fucking campaign like this by a company in my life. So again, we're talking about bot clicks. I mean, bots, you know, applying for job seekers, right?
Maureen Clough (23:04.533)
Hmm.
Chad Sowash (23:07.771)
I've never seen a propaganda fucking campaign like this by a company in my life. So again, we're talking about bot clicks. I mean bots, you know, applying for job seekers, right? They're they'll use bots to form their resumes better for the for the actual job itself and then they'll apply with bots and then you can sit back. So
Maureen Clough (23:09.903)
Ha ha
Chad Sowash (23:22.257)
They're they'll use bots to form their resumes better for the for the actual job itself and then they'll apply with bots and then you can sit back. So
Maureen Clough (23:33.003)
Bot world man.
Chad Sowash (23:34.754)
On LinkedIn, Maggie Hulce, who is the chief revenue officer over at Indeed, posted about Indeed's new jobs need people ad campaign built around a simple truth. Jobs need people just as much as people need jobs. So I I'm sure you guys watch this. I'm gonna go ahead and talk it through for the for the actual listeners. the ad starts out with literally text that says job search doesn't feel human anymore.
Lieven (23:35.771)
Then Maggie Hulce, who is the chief revenue officer over at Indeed, posted about Indeed's new jobs need people ad campaign built around a simple truth. Jobs need people just as much as people need jobs. So I I'm sure you guys watch this. I'm gonna go ahead and talk it through for the for the actual listeners. the ad starts out with literally text that says job search doesn't feel human anymore.
Maureen Clough (24:05.111)
That is true.
Chad Sowash (24:05.681)
Then it says, indeed, indeed is helping people feel seen again. Then it goes through some emotive videos of a software developer with a baby, a physical therapist having helping out a patient, a server serving, a mechanic under a vehicle lift. And then it says people need jobs and jobs need people.
Lieven (24:06.117)
Then it says, indeed, indeed is helping people feel seen again. Then
It goes through some emotive videos of a software developer with a baby, a physical therapist having helping out a patient, a server serving, a mechanic under a vehicle lift, and then it says people need jobs and jobs needs And when did we show when do they show the kitten the kittens on the puppies
Chad Sowash (24:35.377)
Be seen.
Maureen Clough (24:35.405)
So touching. Untouched. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Unicorns and rainbows too. I love the idea of a software engineer with a baby because the tech industry is famously all about work life balance.
Lieven (24:47.887)
Yeah. yeah. That's about family values. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sil Silicon Valley. It's all about all about family values. at last says B C
Chad Sowash (24:48.465)
yeah. It's yeah. Yeah, yeah. Silic Silicon Valley is all about all about family valleys. at the last it says be seen for all what you can do. The thing that just blew my mind is right out of the gate it says job search doesn't feel human anymore. Job search on sites like Indeed have never felt fucking human. Since when does clicking a button and filling out a form feel human?
Maureen Clough (24:51.253)
Yeah, yeah. Making the world better place. Mm.
Chad Sowash (25:05.104)
Job search doesn't feel human anymore. Job search on sites like Indeed have never felt fucking human. Since when does clicking a button and filling out a form feel human? It's never felt human. But then once again, human, you're pitching human when you're talking about box applying for jobs. Me, Mag, I I hope you understand that
Maureen Clough (25:14.029)
Strong point.
Chad Sowash (25:17.295)
It's never felt human. But then once again, human, you're pitching human when you're talking about bots applying for jobs. I mean, Maggie, I I I I hope you understand that I understand that you're in sales, right? But that's a load of shit. Not even you can sell.
Maureen Clough (25:29.311)
It's
Maureen Clough (25:34.593)
Ha ha
it's not it's not great. But I guess they're counting on people not thinking 'cause we don't do a whole lot of that in the United States these days. So maybe it'll work out for Maybe it's a really good maybe it's really good d take. I don't know.
Chad Sowash (25:48.316)
Yeah, well there's they there there is that. I have to say that, you know, the the ad was very if you're not an insider, you don't understand what Indeed actually stands for, i this could pass off as, yeah, no, this is it is very emotive. look a software with a baby. I mean
Lieven (25:48.793)
Yeah, well there's a maybe it's a really really good team. There there is that. I have to say that, you know, the the ad was ba i if you're not an insider, you don't understand what indeed actually stands for. this could pass off as, yeah, no, this is it it's very emotive. look, the software with a baby. I mean utopia
Maureen Clough (26:09.581)
Utopia as we descend into dystopia.
Chad Sowash (26:15.131)
Yeah, yeah. I all I gotta say is, wow.
Lieven (26:15.633)
Yeah.
All I gotta say is, wow, that escalated quickly. So we're gonna jump we're gonna jump to Mo's favorite, which is IBM. They they've got some things going on. This is man versus machine. And I mean literally and and and you might not remember this Mo because you were probably in diapers, but do you remember in nineteen ninety seven when IBM's Deep Blue computer beat chess grandmaster Gary Casper, yes.
Maureen Clough (26:20.438)
Mm-hmm. That's it. That's funny.
Chad Sowash (26:20.509)
okay, so we're gonna jump we're gonna jump to Mo's favorite, which is IBM. They they've got some things going on. This is man versus machine. And I mean literally, and and and you might not remember this, Mo, because you were probably in diapers, but do you remember in 1997 when IBM's deep blue computer beat chess grandmaster Gary Kasparov? Yes, right.
Maureen Clough (26:28.621)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (26:47.793)
I remember I remember.
Maureen Clough (26:49.131)
I do not. I think I was listening to InSync and the Backstreet Boys at that time, not paying attention to IBM. Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (26:52.641)
Okay, so again, well maybe not in diapers, but still very young. That was a big day for computers and IBM. Not so much for today. As IBM's computer, it's not deep blue, by the way, their applicant tracking system has them in hot waters hot water after allegedly auto rejecting a candidate that already had twenty-four years of IBM experience. That's right. A twenty four or twenty four year old
Lieven (26:53.809)
Again, well maybe not in diapers but still very. That was a big day for computers and IBM. Not so much for today. As IPM's computer, it's not deep blue by the way, their applicant tracking system has them in hot waters hotwater
Allegedly auto-rejecting a candidate that already had twenty-four years of IBM experience. That's right. A twenty-four or twenty-four-year-old IBM veteran alleges the company pushed out voter workers during layoffs and then used automated hiring tech to keep them from coming back. IBM denies wrongdoing. They deny it. And the claims are still unproven, but the case lands right in the middle of the AI.
Chad Sowash (27:21.315)
IBM veteran alleges the company pushed out older workers during layoffs and then used automated hiring tech to keep them from coming back. IBM denies wrongdoing. They they deny it. And the claims are still unproven, but the case lands right in the middle of the AI hiring hype cycle. Mo, I know you want to get on this. Tell me what you got.
Maureen Clough (27:47.158)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, IBM is not new to this world of ageism discrimination claims. back in twenty eighteen there were multiple pieces done by the New York Times and and Pro Publica that were really in depth and they alleged that basically IBM had created this systemic sort of
wave of trying to lay off older workers and actually force them to retrain the to train their replacements who are all younger of course. They labeled them as quote dino babies that they wanted to quote make extinct. So this is something that has been pretty well documented within the IBM culture. And we all know that culture starts at the top and it filters on down. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if Daniel Swanson, who's the n plaintiff in this new case with the 24 years at the company,
i were absolutely true. Wouldn't be surprised at all. and the EEOC has investigated them multiple times too, and they've found adequate proof to suggest that there could have been discrimination. So it's it's something that it I think is is absolutely possible. I think with the advent of the AI and screening technology and the programmatic approach to the ATS and allowing employers to go ahead and alter those things and they're
Lieven (28:40.701)
Mm.
Chad Sowash (28:48.081)
I remember it for years but I can't work it out.
Chad Sowash (28:59.453)
See this is what we talked about, isn't it? Yeah. Meet two. Are you the balls up not for one?
Maureen Clough (28:59.689)
it's very possible that they could have put things in there like, we only want this particular, you know, number of years of experience, for example, which you don't have to actually even say, like filter out candidates who were, you know, born after 1995, right? Like or before 1995. You can like literally just say, I only want like five years of experience or whatever. So there are other ways to get around it, but workday, as you guys know, is is in engaged in litigation right now around their ATS.
Chad Sowash (29:12.946)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (29:16.281)
something floor so wasn't great. Safe and load it out. And yeah, when I was working something else at the end of the board.
Maureen Clough (29:26.547)
And the allegation that they were actually programmed to to reject, to auto-reject people of a certain age. That has happened with another company called iTutor Group. The EEOC sued them and one, they had actually programmed people to be auto-rejected at age 55 if you're women and 60 if you're men, because of course you can get older than we can. That's how it goes. so this has been documented as something that has happened. I talked to my show, It Gets Late Early, is all about.
Chad Sowash (29:39.187)
Wow Wow.
Maureen Clough (29:53.386)
ageism and the issues that people face in mid-career and I I get constant flood of stories of people facing just that like the instant rejections being told they're overqualified. But I think this case, if the allegations are true is particularly terrible because like can you imagine the indignity of working for a company for 24 years and having good performance reviews and all of that and then getting blackballed at the application stage for your old job essentially? Like that's
Chad Sowash (30:16.475)
Caraca, você é amigo.
Maureen Clough (30:21.569)
That's just ridiculous. But yeah, there's so much within that that lawsuit too that suggests that there was this systemic sort of pattern with bias at the organization. You know, they they use a lot of euphemistic language like seniority mix and like skills refresh and next generation and all that's like in right seniority mix, right? Like how do we mix up the seniority? We want
Chad Sowash (30:38.799)
Seniority mix, what does that even fucking mean? What does that mean?
Maureen Clough (30:44.905)
Experience and inexperience. I mean, it's all just it's very obvious what they mean. And that's been apparently documented within that lawsuit. So I'm obviously really interested to see what happens with this one and also of course with the workday case, which will have really widespread implications for the entire industry given how many people are on workday, right? And whether or not they're gonna be held liable for some s software that they use, right? Like if if they didn't program it themselves, if workday did.
Lieven (31:14.817)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (31:14.827)
Are they liable for discrimination? Right? So super cool. And Eightfold, that one is very interesting as well. So lots of cool stuff happening here. None of it great for us, but like hopefully we'll get it all sorted, right? Awareness is huge.
Chad Sowash (31:26.087)
We'll see. We'll see. Levin. Thoughts on you were around during the Gary Kasparov days. So you what do you think, right? Huh? Huh?
Maureen Clough (31:32.077)
Ha ha ha.
Lieven (31:32.55)
I was. I was. I was supporting Kasparov by the way, but he lost. Anyways, I think in this case we need to be careful. I mean, IBM hasn't responded yet, so this these are still allegations. it's not like a court has already established these facts or anything. And in this specific case, it's about
Chad Sowash (31:36.603)
Yes. Me too.
Maureen Clough (31:48.013)
Yep.
Lieven (31:54.711)
One person, I think it will be extremely difficult for that person to prove that it was because of his age he was fired. IBM could claim, yeah, but we are we are just replacing him with someone who's a better fit for the job could be. If it was a whole team which was constantly being replaced, older teams, that would be something else. But one individual it will be hard to prove. And the AI part is even yeah.
Maureen Clough (32:01.453)
You're not wrong.
Chad Sowash (32:14.397)
patterns.
Lieven (32:16.889)
The AI part is even harder. Saying AI rejected me isn't just enough. He has to prove that it was first of all AI who rejected him, another person. And I think even IBM won't know if it was AI and why AI rejected him or not. It's a big black box. So I don't think it will be easy to to build a case on this. If it's a pattern, that's something else. But if one individual case, someone after 25 years getting fired, and I feel sorry for the person, by the way, very sorry. But
Chad Sowash (32:22.269)
Yeah.
Lieven (32:45.219)
If I was fired by Hosovich R I'm becoming fifty this year, and I would say it's because my of my age. Yeah, it would it would be up to me to prove it. And it wouldn't be possible. Yeah, it's
Chad Sowash (32:47.029)
No, I'm just
Maureen Clough (32:54.765)
A hundred percent. You're completely right. And age discrimination is the hardest type to prove. So you have to have very clear, direct proof. I know that there were several other employees who were laid off within the same time, all of whom had at least 25 years of experience, but they have to have a very good case. So I hope this one has merit because my my sense is any time that someone comes out with an age discrimination case and it's not
Chad Sowash (32:54.779)
Yeah I'm just gonna think
Lieven (33:00.112)
No.
Lieven (33:11.045)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (33:17.121)
Had any merit. It's like people looking for something to grab onto, right? It it ends up being like a chilling effect for people who've actually experienced this and it is rampant. So I I hope, I mean, it's weird to say I hope the allegations are true, but I I hope that there is merit to them because otherwise it's just gonna set us all back. But you're absolutely right, Levin. Absolutely right.
Chad Sowash (33:19.439)
god, you didn't even do that. I didn't still got five rounds.
Lieven (33:26.597)
Mm.
Lieven (33:30.842)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (33:32.732)
Mm.
Lieven (33:36.079)
Mm.
Chad Sowash (33:37.27)
He hears that a lot. He hears that a lot. I have one thing to say. I have one thing to say.
Lieven (33:39.427)
Here's that a lot, here's that a lot. I have one thing to say. I have one thing to say.
Maureen Clough (33:40.523)
He never tires of it.
Ha ha ha.
Chad Sowash (33:46.782)
IBM, IBM. So I mean, this case was actually written up by Martin Redstone, who is over at Warden AI. And those guys actually they do auditing of systems and whatnot. They did not audit this system, just just by the way, but they they do from the outside, they they they comment on cases like this, which I love. One of the things he said, quote, from an AI governance standpoint, this exposes the vul vulnerability of predictive models used in talent management, end quote.
Lieven (33:49.617)
So I mean my this case was actually written up by
Redstone, who was over at Orton AI. Those guys actually they do auditing the systems and whatnot. They did not audit the systems, just just by the way. They they do from the outside, they they they comment on cases like this, which I love. One of the things he said, quote, from an AI governance standpoint, this exposes the vul vulnerability of predictive models used in talent and the info. Totally agree. And I believe that hiring
Chad Sowash (34:16.621)
Totally agree. And I believe that hiring companies should definitely understand their process methodologies, even as if it's just from a defensible position. but in this case, and even the the Mobley versus workday case that you talked about, Mo, I'm not convinced that this was AI. but but I don't know that it matters, right? I mean, are are are you as a hiring company going to take a chance of possibly landing
Maureen Clough (34:36.065)
May not be.
Lieven (34:38.225)
I don't know that it matters, right? I mean our our you as a hiring company is going to take a chance of possibly landing in front of a judge that can they can't text their grandkids for God's sakes and and try to prove that it's not AI. Now, much like anything that we talk about these days concerning AI
Chad Sowash (34:46.405)
In front of a judge that can they can't text their grandkids for God's sakes and and try to prove that it's not AI. I mean, that's one of the the problems that we have here. Now, much like anything that we talk about these days concerning AI, the question is, is it really AI or is it just dumb triggers? Maybe RPA, you know, robotic process, you know, automation, yeah, just basic automations.
Lieven (35:03.205)
The question is, is it really AI? Or is it just dumb triggers? Maybe RPA, w you know, robotic process you know automation, yeah. Yeah, just basic automation. to me, none of that really matters to be quite frank. I don't care if it if they say it's AI, they do that on AI, if it's biased, it's biased.
Chad Sowash (35:14.823)
to me, none of that really matters, to be quite frank. I don't care if it if they say it's AI and they pin it on AI, if it's bias, it's bias, right? And I hope they don't use that, that, that AI label as a, well, it wasn't AI. So it's like, no, no, no, no. It was bias. It doesn't matter how it happened. I do like that that that Warden is shining a light on these cases, but I believe it's it's imperative that.
Maureen Clough (35:22.485)
Right. Yeah.
Lieven (35:23.043)
Right? Hope they don't use that that that AI label as a well it wasn't AI, so it's like, no, no, no, no. It was biased. It doesn't matter how it happened. I do like that that that Warden is shining a light on these cases, but I believe it's it's imperative that hiring companies map out their hiring process with output.
Maureen Clough (35:32.427)
Yep. I agree.
Chad Sowash (35:41.278)
Hiring companies map out their hiring process methodologies and they do that with the vendors that they've bought that are a part of their stack. They have to understand their blind spots. They have to understand their risks. And if it's a big tech stack, I mean, I think it's pretty simple. You go to a third party outsourced expert and you have them do everything for you, right? I mean, it's it's not just auditing your system. I think auditing your system is incredibly important.
Lieven (35:45.931)
And they do that with the vendors that they've got that are a part of their stack. They have to understand their blind spots, they have to understand their risks. And it's a big tech stack, I mean I think it's pretty simple. You go to a third party outsourced expert and you have them do everything for you, right? I mean it's it it's not just auditing your system, I think auditing your system is incredibly important. But it's also trying to understand the hiring methodologies of
Maureen Clough (35:51.767)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (36:03.501)
There we go. Brilliant.
Chad Sowash (36:11.825)
But it's also trying to understand the hiring methodologies, the processes, and those types of things. Because if you don't know what that is today, how in the hell can you defend it when somebody like this actually comes in and says, whether they're right or they're wrong, that you've been biased and they they start suing you. And what happens, much like Mobley, if it turns into a class action? That is fucking, my God. That's scary. Yeah.
Lieven (36:15.795)
processes and those types of things because if you don't know what that is today, how in the hell can you defend it when somebody like this actually comes in and says whether they're right or they're wrong that you've been biased and they they start suing you. And what happens, most like Mobly, if it turns into a class action. That is fucking my god, that's scary.
Maureen Clough (36:29.303)
Yep.
Maureen Clough (36:38.655)
No bueno. Yeah, no bueno. By the way, what you just mentioned, it almost makes me feel like we should have HR at our companies. Unlike what that bolt guy said. Did you hear that guy? He was like, dude, I mean insane. Yeah, yeah, you guys talked about it. That's right, yeah. I wish I'd been there for that one, because I would have loved to lay that. Damn it.
Lieven (36:47.729)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. We I I I I think I yeah yeah yeah. Lines, lines lines What a dickhead. What a dickhead. Yeah, okay.
Chad Sowash (36:50.919)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. We I I I I think I yeah, yeah, yeah. And I all I gotta say. What a what a dickhead. What a dickhead. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maureen Clough (37:04.033)
What an idiot. I've been at startups without HR. Trust me, they're gonna get sued. So I can't wait to watch them roll in. He definitely is about 12. But he thinks he's God. A hundred percent.
Lieven (37:10.001)
No, I'm going to follow it, sorry. I'm really curious how this will turn out.
Maureen Wiley
Yeah man, they're gonna get sued.
Chad Sowash (37:10.961)
He looked like he was twelve, by the way. It's like it your mom should be making your decisions anyway, right? Your mom should be making your decisions. So what do you think? Any any any parting blows leaving on the IBM conversation?
Okay, okay. Well, our next topic is a juicy one. last week in a post on LinkedIn, OpenAI's Chaya Nayak, who is in charge of special in a initiatives, wrote quote, When I joined OpenAI, one of the things that excited me most was the possibility of using AI, not just to make people more productive.
Chad (37:35.599)
Last week in a post on LinkedIn, OpenAI's Chaya Nayak, who's in charge of special of initiatives, wrote, quote, when I joined OpenAI, one of the things that excited me most was the possibility of using AI, not just to make people more productive, but to help create opportunity. Over the last several months, I have had the privilege of working with an incredible team to make a step toward Mat Vision by launching improved job search features in ChatGPT. This work represents something I cared deeply about since my early days with Samasource. Helping people better understand their skills, discover opportunities, and navigate an increasingly complex labor market. This next part is incredibly important kids.
Maureen Clough (37:59.406)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Sowash (38:23.065)
A special thank you to our partners, Indeed, Upwork, and Appcast for collaborating with us to build a better experience for job seekers. Mo, Levin, you guys had a chance to take a look at ChatGPT's new job search. What do you got?
Lieven (38:52.209)
The whole basic idea I like it. I mean, we come from a world where you, when you're looking for a job, you put two fields. You enter text in two fields. What are you looking for? Where are you looking for? And then you can find a job for a marketeer in Brussels, and you'll find a listing with jobs which more or less resemble your question. But using natural language, you could write the whole page designing or describing your perfect job. So I like te idea that the large language model is matching the jobs when you're searching for it. It's even better when can upload a PDF with your resume and say, This this is I, this is me. What kind of jobs do we suggest which are suited for me? And it works. So I tested the ChatGPT thing using a VPN because it's only active in the United States and I'm in Europe. So I tested it. The first thing I noticed was, of course, Indeed. Indeed succeeded in enabling
Well, I don't know how they did it. Probably they paid a lot. But next to many jobs, you'll see a button saying Indeed. And if you click on it, you go to Indeed and you can apply. It's good for Indeed. It's well played, Indeed, nice. But it's not only Indeed, you also have LinkedIn, but they are not mentioned. If you click on a if you click on a vacancy, if you click on a vacancy, you go to LinkedIn, but LinkedIn wasn't mentioned. So I guess they didn't pay, but they couldn't just show jobs from Indeed. It would get them into trouble. And the third one is
Maureen Clough (40:01.373)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (40:18.135)
Direct corporate companies. You could I had one from Caterpillar. I clicked on it, a marketeer at Caterpillar, but then I was blocked. So there is something wrong with the link from ChatGPT to Caterpillar. Yeah, even with a very funny screenshot. I still have it, I think. it said something. I'm going to put it I'm going to show here it is. Sorry, we have you sorry you have been blocked. You are unable to access happy dance.
Chad Sowash (40:28.945)
You were blocked?
Maureen Clough (40:30.893)
His VPN failed.
Lieven (40:46.747)
So it's a total it's a total clusterfuck. But the URL says careers.caterpillar.com and the whole whatever. Yeah, I'll take a screenshot. Okay. You know Caterpillar? I didn't have a clue what happy dance was about. I thought I thought it was a porn side or something, but it's probably it's always me. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (40:49.101)
Happy Dance dot website? Hmm.
Chad Sowash (40:53.357)
I'll reach out to Dave Ralph. He'll get that fixed by the end of the day, I promise. No, I know, I know, I know. Happy Dance. they're out of Ireland. They're out of Ireland, yeah. There's some good boys.
Lieven (41:15.577)
Happy dance, I mean if you hear happy dance and you happy dance dot com, but that no it makes sense.
Chad Sowash (41:20.177)
I think you're also thinking of happy sock, but that no, it makes good sense, yeah.
Lieven
No, it could be, but I was thinking about pole dancing, something like that. Okay. Anyways, so just to get back on topic, I like the whole idea that I can use ChatGPT to find a job, and I think many people will do so. If you ask Google a question, you get some websites where you might find an answer. If you ask ChatGPT a question, you'll get an answer. So if I want to find a job, I need jobs.
Maureen Clough (41:20.279)
Mm-hmm. I don't know either of these things.
Chad Sowash (41:42.631)
Yeah.
Lieven (41:45.081)
I like the idea and I tested it that I could upload my resume and I got jobs which actually were pretty decent. But they're not transparent on why indeed is mentioned with a button with its name on and the others are not. And I don't know and I couldn't find out how I from House of HR can put my jobs in there with a listing with my brand in it. And I'm willing to pay for it. I mean nobody works for free.
Chad Sowash (42:12.157)
You don't but just when you don't just take a fortune.
Lieven (42:12.729)
I couldn't figure it out, so I don't think they have a transparent business model yet. And maybe they're just experimenting. But maybe chat or or mo you know more about this than I do.
Maureen Clough (42:22.741)
Yeah, no. I on purpose don't I don't want anything to do with open AI, evil empire that it is. I I recognize that a lot of people do, but what this brings up for me though, I mean, yeah, sure, the utility of it. Yeah, sure. it knows me. The AI knows me and it's pulling in things that'd be relevant and it has my resume and blah blah blah. Like I get that.
Chad Sowash (42:23.153)
Mel?
Lieven (42:43.473)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (42:44.149)
As a utility, but what concerns me is what you said, which is the transparency aspect. And obviously anybody with half a brain knows that if indeed is popping up with a button, it's 'cause they've paid open AI money, right? Like that's how it goes. But when I think about how much of a problem this is
It like even on the web browsers now. It's like the AI overview comes up. How the hell are they sorting those results? How are they deciding which results become the basis for those summaries? And it's the same sort of thing. Like, how are how are we going to be served up the right thing for us truly? Or is it going to just be this selected thing by OpenAI by these companies?
Because they've been paid by others. So I I don't really trust it for that reason. It's not gonna surface what's best for the job seeker. It's gonna surface what they have in stock as their, you know, pay to play model. so I think it has a limited utility in that sense. I think it might be capped and I I just wish it were different. I again, like on its face, I don't have a problem with it, but the fact that it's going to serve up the pay to play model is gonna be tough.
For me, just generally speaking.
Chad Sowash (43:52.718)
Yeah, I got an easy response to that. Yeah. it the thing that I loved about the nice little call-out of Indeed, AppCast, and Upwork. Unfortunately, the job seeker experience sucks and their names are associated to it. And let me tell you why. Just last week we talked about Google for Jobs and Job Slop. Well, guess what? The same job slop.
Maureen Clough (43:59.306)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (44:10.175)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Sowash (44:19.737)
Well, guess what? The same job slop is happening on ChatGPT. So I guess you could actually call it AI job slop or job AI slop. At the end of the day, as I'd said last week, Julie and I actually received info from a solid list of TA leaders. They started noticing their jobs were listed on Google for jobs, but it wasn't their jobs. And it wasn't their feeds. They were scam jobs, they were spam jobs. They were candidate harvesting schemes. There were paywalls. And we applied to several of those jobs for companies, because we were working with the companies. They didn't receive our resumes. On many occasions, they didn't receive our resumes. So actually linking into the applicant tracking system, this was a scam. This was harvesting. This is this is horrible. The jobs are fraudulent.
Maureen Clough (44:52.205)
Dude.
Maureen Clough (45:05.215)
Awful. Humans suck.
Chad Sowash (45:16.977)
Then we heard about Chat GPT's new search capabilities. And guess what we found? The same fucking job slop. Yes. But now, but now this is the beautiful part about this whole thing. I guess thanks to Chaya's post, we now know where the job slot is coming from. Either indeed and/or appcast and/or upwork. And let me say that again. OpenAI's Chaya, who is in charge of this special projects credited to these fraudulent jobs and job slop actually called out Indeed, AppCast, and Upwork. So we know where the problem is. It's one of those three, or maybe even LinkedIn say apparently they've been added to the list. But here's the fix, kids. I did this in the early days, and you can do this again, and it's not as hard as everybody wants you to fucking believe it is.
Lieven (45:58.501)
So we know where the problem is. It's it's one of those three. Or maybe even LinkedIn say apparently they've they've been added to the list. But here's the fix, kids. I've I did this in the early days, and you can do this again, and it's not as hard as everybody wants you to fucking believe it is. You have to understand where the jobs originate, which is why open AI should start only working directly with corporate career sites and state workforce agencies, because those
Maureen Clough (46:06.133)
Two. Wow.
Maureen Clough (46:14.999)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (46:15.653)
You have to understand where the jobs originate, which is why OpenAI should start only working directly with corporate career sites and state workforce agencies, because those c those are the companies or state workforce agencies get a lot of the small to medium businesses who actually post in for free, right? if hiring companies are building chat GPT apps, well then that that's like a verified plan plus. And I think
Lieven (46:28.475)
Those are the companies state workforce agencies get a lot of the small to meet mean businesses. We're actually posting for free, right? if hiring companies are building chat GPT apps, well then that that's like a verified plan plus. And I think we try to make this shit way too complex. and that's exactly what's happening with Chat GPT to some extent. I I I believe, I can't prove, I'd like to know. Try, would you let me know? Bendeed is paying a sh
Chad Sowash (46:44.111)
We try to make this shit way too complex. and that's exactly what's happening with Chat GPT to some extent. I I I believe, I can't prove, I'd like to know. Chaya, would you let me know if Indeed is paying a shit ton of cash to get their name on the button and if those other players are actually paying as well. But I think at the end of the day, when you jump into and you dig deep, there is nothing but scam.
Maureen Clough (46:56.652)
Ha ha ha.
Lieven (47:12.517)
There is nothing but scam, spam, candidate harvesting, and paywalls. And it's it and it's bullshit. Now there are some real jobs in there too. That's what makes this even worse. Because candidates click on real jobs and they're like, these are great jobs and then they get fucked over with some of these other ones. Yeah. Anyway, I'm gonna see that. Yep.
Chad Sowash (47:13.687)
spam, candidate harvesting, and paywalls. And it's and it's bullshit. Now there are some real jobs in there too. That's what makes this even worse because candidates click on real jobs and they're like, these are great jobs. And then they get fucked over with some of these other ones. Yeah. Anyway, I'm gonna Yep.
Maureen Clough (47:26.957)
Can you tell the difference? And people are so desperate for work right now. That breaks my heart. That really sucks. Yeah, I I think we need to I mean, how much of a push has there been for these job sites to vet the opportunities that come to them? I mean, is it like sort of the way Meta's like, dude, we can't be, you know, held liable for what's set on our platform. We're just the facilitators. Are they kind of in that vein? Where they're like, they put up. Okay. Man.
Chad Sowash (47:51.623)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well we we will see, but I'm telling you right now, chat GBT.
Maureen Clough (47:57.079)
That's
Lieven (47:57.155)
see but I'm telling you right now chat GPT You're not gonna fall for the banana and the tailpipe and the tailpipe and Mo just invoked meta so we're gonna talk about them right when we come back
Chad Sowash (48:03.057)
We're not falling for the banana and tailpipe. And Mo just invoked Meta. So we're gonna talk about them right when we come back.
Maureen Clough (48:10.23)
yeah. My favorite company.
Chad Sowash (48:13.741)
Okay, kids. A BBC article says that quote, according to an internal memo sent on Tuesday, Meta is scaling back its plan to start tracking employees' computer activity. In April, the company received criticism from its own staff, imagine that, after it announced a new tool that would log their keystrokes and mouse clicks to train its own AI, also known as MCI.
Maureen Clough (48:33.963)
Hmm.
Chad Sowash (48:43.651)
Or model capability initiative. According to Reuters, new controls will allow employees to pause the data collection for get this up to 30 minutes at a time, as well as request exemptions from the initiative altogether. Meta declined to comment on the record. imagine that. In other news, Meta is launching America's Workforce Academy.
Chad Sowash (48:47.691)
According to Reuters, new controls will allow employees to pause the data collection for interest up to 30 minutes at a time, as well as request exemptions from the initiative altogether. Meta declined to comment on the record.
In other news, Meta is launching America's Workforce Academy. Meta calls it a nationwide fast track training program for skilled trades powered by an initial one hundred and fifteen million dollars first year investment. Cost-free investment that supports all participants. They learn, they they get guaranteed jobs, they graduate. I don't know how the fuck that happened.
Chad Sowash (49:11.419)
Meta calls it a nationwide fast track training program for skilled trades powered by an initial $115 million first-year investment. Cost-free investment that supports all participants. They learn, they they get guaranteed jobs if they graduate. I don't know how in the fuck that happens. graduates earn the industry-recognized National Center for Construction, Education, and Research.
Chad Sowash (49:34.561)
The industry recognized National Center for Construction, Education and Research Credential and America's Workforce Certificate, both designed to travel with the worker across sectors and state voters. Meta's got a lot going on this week. What do you think, Mo? What do you think, Mo?
Maureen Clough (49:56.814)
Well, first of all, I mean, those thirty minutes, man, what are people gonna be doing besides applying for jobs outside of Meta? my gosh. Like what my thing is even if and they said in that article as well that meta employees are allowed to, you know, raise objections and say they want to opt out of the program entirely. But the problem is anyone who does that, obviously, you know you have a target on your back. You are next on that layoff list. They don't like people who rabble raise. They want everybody to fall in line and be good little minions.
Chad Sowash (50:16.176)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (50:26.787)
Right. so that's very inherently dangerous for any employee at Meta to do. but even if they were to do that, even if they were to object, which I'm sure I would, for example, then your training models are gonna happen without you because you're not the only person doing your job at the company. Anybody who hasn't objected is going to be training said models that they want to have the capability to replace you. They are literally having people train the data, the train the agents who will then
Chad Sowash (50:27.975)
Yeah, what it is.
Maureen Clough (50:56.385)
hopefully in Meta's point of view, replace the very people who trained the equipment to begin with, which is just horrific and so dystopian. But so I think you're in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation at Meta. And I just I I keep questioning, like, man, is it worth it? Like I know people need to eat and like have jobs and stuff and like probably have, you know, held their hung their hat on like, I work at Meta 'cause it's like such a big name. But with all that they're doing to destroy us and have already done to destroy us, like, ooh, I don't know if I could do it. But and with regard to the data center stuff, it's like, okay, all right. So you want us to get on board with you destroying the environment and putting, you know, you like under the guise of like adding jobs like you're the good guys. Like what?
Chad Sowash (51:25.296)
A year.
Chad Sowash (51:41.477)
You just made the leap from the workforce the wonderful workforce program to data centers, Mo.
Maureen Clough (51:46.254)
I know. Very strange. Very strange. They're like, there will be so many jobs. but yeah, no, it's it's also it's just it's all of it just blows my mind. Like, do they think we don't see this stuff? Like it's so transparent. And you know, if they do train these this like fake program they've created, like to look like they're some saviors for the American out of work populace, like
What's gonna happen after those data centers are erected? Is there gonna be any sort of like economy to to like keep these people employed at that point? So, like, sure, they'll get the data centers up that that creates the AI that's gonna replace us, and then these people are gonna be with this cute little certificate, no debt, which is great, but then like will they have work? I d I don't know. I'm not sure.
Chad Sowash (52:30.397)
Yeah. I that's a that's a very that's a very good question. Levin, what do you what do you think? Hey no quick question for Levin because I here I I'm in Europe, I watch I watch the news, I watch Sky, I watch BBC, I w all the stuff, right?
Chad (52:44.409)
Lieven, what do you what do you think? That's a question for Lieven, because I hear I I'm in Europe. I watch I watch the news, I watch Sky, I watch BBC. I don't see anything about data centers here. I don't see any anything about people pushing back against data centers, which means I are they being built? you're saying a shit ton of that happening in the US. Are you are you seeing any of that? 'Cause I certainly not. I'm sure they're being built, but it's not a topic yet. I don't see anything about data centers here. I don't see anything about people pushing back against data centers, which means I are they being built? you're seeing a shit ton of that happening in the US. Are you seeing any of that? 'Cause I am not.
Lieven (53:14.343)
And it's a matter of time, I guess. But the whole MCI thing is happening here as well. I actually had a meeting yesterday with a company and they were asking me how to achieve what's Meta trying to do right now. To yeah, to replace a call center. People who work at a call center, how could we discreetly check what they're doing so we could teach the system how it works? Something like that.
Maureen Clough (53:14.453)
Interesting. Hmm. I wonder why it's taken flight here the way it has.
Chad Sowash (53:21.361)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (53:28.913)
Really?
Chad Sowash (53:36.829)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (53:41.113)
Anyways, you know, some episodes ago when I was on the show, we talked about first you had people being fired because AI was taking their job. And the next step was people being fired because a company wanted to invest in software which could replace them in the end. And now it's even worse. People aren't fired yet. They first have to train the model, which is going to make them redundant, and afterwards they'll be fired. So that's even worse if you ask me.
Chad Sowash (54:03.729)
Yes,
Maureen Clough (54:07.573)
It's awful.
Lieven (54:08.759)
But 30 minutes were kind of funny. So if you want to surf to happydance.com, you can 30 minutes a day. Something like that. Okay. Now the problem is not even that Meta is trying to automate stuff. Companies have always tried to automate repetitive tasks and automation has been around all the time. But now it's people becoming the data sets which is going to make them redundant. And it's just not it's not ethical if you ask me.
Maureen Clough (54:13.821)
Right. That's where we go.
Chad Sowash (54:14.929)
That's what I'm talking about. Yes.
Maureen Clough (54:38.679)
Mm mm.
Lieven (54:39.055)
But of course they'll go they're going to say something like, No, we're just going to teach a system to make to help you become more efficient. But in the end, people are going to lose their jobs.
Maureen Clough (54:45.407)
Exactly.
Maureen Clough (54:49.218)
Whew.
Chad Sowash (54:49.943)
So Mark Zuckerberg has to be one of the worst human beings alive. this computer tracking that feeds the AI beast, it doesn't surprise me. And if you're working for Meta, much like you were talking about Mo, I mean I don't feel bad for you because you knew it was a shit show when you joined, right? I mean, th this is not new.
Lieven (54:59.158)
that feeds the AI beast. It doesn't surprise me. And if you're working for Meta, much like you're talking about Ro and I don't feel bad for you because you knew the shit show would be job. I mean this is not new. Yeah, but back in the days, twenty, twenty five years ago, when did I start f using Facebook twenty years ago or something, it was something else. It was a different company. They're not around it.
Maureen Clough (55:10.081)
It's time.
Maureen Clough (55:18.477)
Two thousand and five ish, yeah.
Chad Sowash (55:20.103)
They they're not around anymore. Most of those people aren't around anymore.
Lieven (55:22.681)
No no no no no true. But then Facebook Facebook was kind of fun and I I I stopped the moment it became you know the echo the echo room, echo chamber, how do you call it? Where people were just yeah and then and the the the passive aggression and all the c the extreme rights etc I've I gave up. I don't use it anymore. Yeah, well I I do barely. I don't do as much as I used to.
Maureen Clough (55:23.367)
Cashed out.
Chad Sowash (55:27.046)
It was.
Chad Sowash (55:31.365)
Yeah.
Yep, echo chamber, yep.
Maureen Clough (55:34.239)
Yeah. Well put.
Maureen Clough (55:41.153)
Rough.
Chad Sowash (55:44.668)
Yeah, no well, i I I do barely. I don't do as much as I used to. but let me get to let let me get to the skilled trades real quick. So America does need skilled trade workers, right? But will a hundred and fifteen million do the trick, or is it just meta trying to grease the skids for states that wanna they where they wanna build data centers, right? This feels like a little taste of quote unquote funding.
Maureen Clough (55:44.82)
Nor do I.
Lieven (55:52.593)
Right.
Let me get to let me let me get to the skilled trades real quick. So America does need skilled trade workers, right? But will a hundred and fifteen million be the trick, or is it just meta trying to grease the skills for states that would've they where they would have built data centers, right? This feels like a little taste of quote unquote funding. And if data centers are approved then they'll spend more money in I mean this this it to to to thank you
Chad Sowash (56:14.531)
And if data centers are approved, then they'll spend more money and I mean this is th this it to to to thank you, Mo for telling me that I need to watch Silicon Valley. This sounds like a Gavin Belson move. it is Yes, saving the world is so so funny. And the only way that we can save the world today, kids, is
Lieven (56:23.027)
for for telling me that I need to watch Silicon Valley. This sounds like a Gavin Belson movie. Yes, saving the world. It's so so funny. And the only way that we can save the world today, kids, is through a dad joke. And I've got a tech dad joke today.
Maureen Clough (56:28.349)
Yes. my gosh. So saving the world, Galf Gavin Belsom. Yeah. my god. Saving the world. Making the world a better place.
Chad Sowash (56:42.781)
through a dad joke and I've got a tech dad joke today. it's it's not one of Joel's you know creepy uncle joke. It's a dad joke. so so here we go. There are only ten types of people in the world
Maureen Clough (56:44.565)
Ha ha ha
Lieven (56:48.585)
It's it's not one of Joel's you know creepy uncle joke. It's a bad joke. so so here we go. There are only ten types of people in the world those who understand binary and those who don't. Okay. For once I get the joke.
Maureen Clough (56:52.459)
I like that.
Chad Sowash (57:01.649)
Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Chad Sowash (57:08.75)
Ha ha ha ha.
Maureen Clough (57:08.983)
Okay. Okay. Ten kinds. See it. Wow. one. one's okay, I get it. It took me a minute. It took me a minute. It took me a minute. Well, I'm not I'm in business development partnerships marketing. Blah. Got it.
Chad Sowash (57:15.165)
but see, she's even in tech. She's even in tech.
Lieven (57:16.977)
See she's even in tech. She's even in tech.
Lieven (57:24.049)
I gotta say it's great having you guys together. The first time we've all been together ever. It was a great show. Had fun. And all I gotta say is one thing to say left is we out. We out.
Chad Sowash (57:24.359)
I gotta say it's great having you guys together. The first time we've all been together ever. It was a great show, had fun, and all I gotta say is one thing to say left is we out.
Maureen Clough & Lieven (57:31.713)
We Out
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