Episode Search

It was feast or famine for a few companies on this week's podcast? - Paradox ate like it was at a Vegas buffet, - Glassdoor was doing its best Oliver Twist - RPO Rumors out of Indeed - ZipRecruiter's got jokes? - Long-term WFH LIVES at Google and Twitter ...and discussing "urban flight" within major metropolitan areas in America. Have a seat, get comfy, make a Carnival Cruise reservation and enjoy this week's show, powered by Canvas, JobAdx, and Sovren. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. James Ellis: James Ellis from the Talent Cast. You may not be aware of this, but a couple years ago I lost a bet, so now I'm contractually obligated to say nice things about Chad and Cheese. Well, I took that let's say lemon and turned it into lemonade. I took interviews from Chad and Cheese and turned it into a book, but I added a lot of other people you're going to want to talk to, it's called Talent Chooses You. It is Hiring Better with Employer Branding, and it is available on Amazon, June 15th, you should go and buy it. Bye. SFX: Fuck the fucking fuckers. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Nearly 3 million Americans filed for unemployment benefits last week, translating to more than 36 million Americans filing unemployment insurance claims in the past two months. Chad: God. Joel: So how's your day going? Welcome to another installment of The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Fauci Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad, get me a fucking test, Sowash. Joel: On this week show, Paradox makes it rain. Glassdoor shows employees the door. And Twitter tells employees to stay home forever. Chad: Hello. Joel: We promise this show won't last forever, it'll only feel that long. Stay tuned while we pay a few bills. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while canvas bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: What are we in, week 12 now? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Week 10 of lockdown. I'm losing count. Chad: It's been a while. It's a good thing it's been kind of rainy, but it's supposed to be nice and sunny today so we can actually get out and do some work outside. Jeez. Joel: If the calendar is right, it's May 164. Chad: Yes. Joel: It feels that way. It feels that way. Yeah, I could use some outdoor time. Winter seems to be lasting forever in the Midwest. Chad: It's starting to get nicer. We'll be able to get out. So get out there people, enjoy, soak it up. I'll see you in a couple of weeks. Joel: Just wear a mask and say, "Stay six feet away from my ass." Chad: Yeah. Just stay the fuck away from me. Joel: We're obviously a little off today. This lockdown must be wearing on us. Chad: Ooh. It's definitely wearing. The Zoom fatigue, lockdown fatigue, whatever the fuck you want to call it. The three teenagers in a house with us fatigue. That's fucking fatigue. Joel: I've been in much better spirits since the three-year-olds been in day camp for a week and a half. That's been a positive development in my world. Chad: Yes. Good for you in day camp, that's for sure. I did want to comment, I think that the newest haircut is definitely the smartest Jeremy haircut. Joel: So a little context for the listeners. My three year old, my wife decided he needed a haircut. I have a pair of clippers, little known fact about me I cut hair in college for a $1 or $2 a cut. Anyway, everybody had the same cut by the way. I didn't really transgress from what I knew. But anyway, the kid's hair was getting pretty long and the idea was like, let's just shave it all off. That was the initial idea. Anyway, he freaked out. So the first iteration of the cut was we kind of got the sides pretty well. Chad: There was Joe Dirt. Joel: Now, my wife stepped in and said, "Oh, he's crying. Let me do it. I'll be gentle, dah, dah, dah." She did some of the shaving. She mistakenly used a one guard on the side, which is shorter than the two guard that I was using. So he had some plugs near the ear. And then she decided, well, it's too long up top, so she got the scissors out, and she did sort of a Dumb and Dumber bowl on the top of the head cut like Jim Carrey. And then she ordered a new set of clippers that make no noise. And she thought that would pass the fine which it mostly did. Chad: Okay. Joel: He looks much better. But it's all even, and he looks like a human being now, so that's progress. Damn, we digressed, didn't we? Chad: Dumb and Dumber meets Joe Dirt or what? But I mean, these are the trials and tribulations that we have to go through in lockdown. Joel: I wanted the Joe exotic. I wanted to trim the sides, get some colors in there, some highlights, but the wife wasn't going for that. Chad: Ah, thank God. Thank God. On the shout-outs, I want to give a big shout-out right out of the gate to Bill Boorman, the guy never sleeps. He's always serving a multitude of communities. Big shout-out for his efforts in feeding the homeless and all those hungry people that are out there In these trying times. He had a sample of some of those foods that he's actually posted on Facebook the other day. You also can, if you're connected to Bill on Facebook or probably on the other socials as well, provide donations so that he can continue his efforts. So if you're connected to Bill, I encourage you to donate. If you're not connected to Bill, definitely get connected. I mean, he's good people, either way, Bill Boorman, good people. Not a great comic, but he's good people. Joel: Oh wow. That's Chad man. He reels you in with positivity and then just knees you right in the nuts. That's nice. That's nice. Well, speaking of bad haircuts, we had Death Match this past week which on video was a variety of contestants. I want to start out by saying big shout-out to the Death Match sponsor Joveo and KJ being on the judging panel. This is a TAtech event that's going down on May 19th. If you haven't registered, go to TAtech.org. We had XOR.ai, Aida Fazylova. Chad: Aida. Joel: Aida shows up vaping. That wasn't on the video, but like a true Russian, she's smoking up before a competition. Chad: Awesome. Joel: Adam from Applichat, our favorite Irish Mexican is back in Ireland on his mom's couch, that was fun. Bradley Cooper out of Vancouver Chad: Clark. Joel: ... with Rectxt was there and Scot Sessions. Yeah, but we're calling him Bradley Cooper for comedy sake. And we might get more viewers if they think Bradley Cooper is going to be on. And Scot Sessions at TalVista. It was a lot of fun and it was a great Death Match. Chad: Good times. Register at TAtech.org. Again, you'll be able to see all of the pitches, the video pitches. And later on down the line we'll put them out as audio podcasts. Joel: We don't need no stinking pitches. Chad: We don't need no pitches. Joel: Shout-out to Little Richard. Most of the kids out there will have no clue who Little Richard is. But the man was Prince before there was Prince. And I encourage you to go check out, wop-bop-a-loo-mop alopbom-bom Tutti frutti, oh rutti. Anyway, that was my bad imitation of Little Richard. Chad: Horrible. Joel: But the guy was a trailblazer and he will be missed in the world of rock. Chad: Yes. And do you remember just last year when we were in Nashville, we actually met him in the lobby of the hotel we were in. I have a signed book, picture, all that stuff. He was in a wheelchair and he came, I went over Joel: Where the hell was I? I wasn't there. Chad: No, you were totally there. You're a space cadet, everybody knows that. Joel: I have not met Little Richard. Chad: Apparently you don't remember it, but I actually have the book and I remember. This is during staffing tech. But anyway, yeah, have the book that actually he signed last year, had a short conversation with him, was incredibly cool and hate to see ... The guy owned the 1950s. I mean, that's all there was to it. But hate to see him go, but got lucky enough to actually meet him. Joel: That was clearly a bad week to start sniffing glue for me. I feel like I would have remembered that. Yeah, shout-out to Airbnb's talent directory. As many listeners might know, Airbnb laid off 25%. Chad: 1800. Joel: Decided to create a directory of everyone laid off with talent, titles, LinkedIn links, GitHub links, all kinds of stuff. Chad: We've talked about Hilton and how they connected with CVS Health and some of these other organizations to be able to ensure that their employees had at least temporary gigs, if not full-time gigs from a transition standpoint. I mean, those brands will be embedded into those individuals lives and their brains forever. Same with Airbnb, I mean, you're cutting 1800 people. What can you do to make it easier and facilitate the process of having other companies looking for the type of talent that you're letting go, giving them access. And this is just, it's just incredibly smart. So yeah, big shout-out to Airbnb for that. I know somebody who would be positive for this Airbnb story would be James Ellis, around employer branding because that is a masterclass in employer brand, and he just wrote a book. Joel: I think we're in it actually. Chad: Oh yeah, I don't know. We'll have to see. Joel: Yeah. Maybe he'll send us a free signed copy. It's called Talent Chooses You, pretty deep title. The subtitle, Hire Better with Employer Branding. We wouldn't expect anything different from our buddy James Ellis, who is the foremost expert on employer brand. Chad: Yeah. James Ellis, Talent Chooses You, check it out on Amazon, buy it today. Joel: Absolutely. Shout-out to LinkedIn who launched LinkedIn polls this past week. If you're keeping count, Twitter launched polls about five years ago. But LinkedIn just launched it this past week. Chad: File that under, I don't give a fuck. Shout-out to Todd Brengel, VP, and newbie over at PandoLogic. He just wanted to comment that he's convinced that there's a correlation between their revenue forecast and the number of F bombs we dropped in their all hands call last week. So thanks Todd, I think. Joel: Nice, nice. I'm naming my shout-out since we typically touch on lockdown guilty pleasures on Netflix and others, that if you haven't checked out The Last Dance featuring The Bulls 1998 season, Chicago Bulls basketball team, as well as basically the top three players, Pippen, Jordan and Rodman's careers. It's a fascinating look into that team, that era, it's a must see if you're a sports fan, shout-out to The Last Dance. Chad: Google it. Joel: Google it and watch it. Chad: I can't believe that you're not referring to any trash TV this week. Last couple of shout-outs, Keaton Shaker, not of those shakers, head of training over at Bright Home Energy. Thanks for connecting and listening. And my last shout-out is around robot dogs patrolling Singapore parks. There's a video that shows these Black Mirror types of dogs equipped with speakers, playing a recording to remind people to social distance. So they're in the park, all these people in the park and these dogs are just roaming the park and they have these speakers reminding people, "Hey, don't forget to social distance." What's the thing going to do if I don't? Joel: This is that Boston dystopian, I mean Boston Dynamics robot, right? Chad: Yes it is. Joel: They're always churning out pleasant, not scary at all robots to be our new overlords. Chad: I would think that if there was a police officer walking beside it or something like that, might like tone it down a little bit, but no, it was all by itself just doing its thing, and it was freaky as fuck. Joel: You ready to get to the news? Chad: Topics. Joel: All right. Our buddies at Paradox made it rain this week. You did the shred on it, what's the news? Chad: 40 million dockets baby. Paradox makers of AI assistant, Olivia, announced 40 million in Series B funding led by Brighton Park Capital. They have 200 plus global enterprise clients, including McDonald's. Joel: Your favorite. Chad: CVS Health, Unilever, and a bunch of other ones. I mean, overall I think this says a lot with regard to conversational AI, not calling them chatbots anymore because to me it almost feels like chatbots are kind of like tactical toys. We start talking about conversational AI, we're talking about, okay, what can we do with the RPA impact, all those things. And I think overall, it's pretty amazing when you bring guys like JZ and Adam Godson in to run marketing and the overall product, you are making a statement number one. But then they get this Brighton Park money. And Mike Gregoire is the chairman of the board. And you know who Mike Gregoire is, right? Joel: I know he's an investor. Chad: Dude, he was the guy who took Taleo to Oracle and sold them to Oracle for $1.9 billion. That's who the fuck Mike Gregoire is, okay? Joel: Thanks for the history lesson. Chad: Yeah. So no understanding that not only are you bringing in the heavy hitters to be able to lead different aspects of the organization, but you're also bringing in this dude who has a ton of cash, yeah, no question, but also to be on the chairman of the board. I think just the depth of what we're seeing here from Paradox, it's pretty damn exciting. Joel: I'm happy to hear you softening a little bit on Paradox. You were certainly bitter about the whole Alexa, McDonald's thing. It's nice to see you open up the heart and start embracing these guys to see what happens. I think that's a nice gesture on your part. Chad: Well, if they stopped doing stupid shit, which I think they will. I think, like I said on several podcasts, if you let Adam and JZ run and just get the fuck out of their way, I mean, I think good things will happen, right? And that's a big kudos to Aaron in getting those individuals in to be able to run that organization. Joel: Some insight from me, those historically that don't know, Aaron can raise some money. He raised a lot of money at Jobing 20 years ago, and he's doing it again. I think the fact that he was apparently able to do it in this downturn is pretty impressive. A lot of the stories that we have are about raising money. The documents were signed before coronavirus was a thing. So that's a major kudos to him for doing that. I think that the most insightful, interesting thing for me from the press release and talking to some people was the word acquisition. You rarely see press releases about getting money, where they actually say, "We're going to acquire some people." And the press release actually talked about acquisitions as part of the strategy of what they were going to use the 40 million for. So that sort of begs the question and granted Aaron is a gangster when it comes to sort of on the cheap clearance rack acquisitions. Joel: And I've been kind of like banging my head, thinking about what could he be looking at? And I've sort of landed on the sourcing folks might be for sale really soon. I think some of the tech folks, I think he might even be able to take out some competitors in the chatbot space. I know we don't call it a chatbot, but that's still what everybody's going to call it, whether you like it or not. I think that'll be the most interesting part of the next 12, 36 months is who do they go after to add to the roles, whether it be technology, whether it be gobbling up competitors or whether it be getting some new talent into the organization to really take this thing to the next level, which I think it will do. Chad: Yeah. And this is the market to do it in, there's no question. So having the cash to be able to turn and make those deals, it's much different today than it was last quarter, right? Joel: Yeah. And knowing that Aaron, he's clearly raising money because not only he can, but it's a smart idea because obviously when you get burned in the past doing it, you're very careful and coordinated and calculated in what you do. I feel like this is going to be money well spent that he's raised. Chad: Yes, he has experience, he's from this industry. He's been there, done that. The big question is, can he do it this time? I think he's setting himself up for success, there's no question. Joel: Moving on to he might want to look for some folks from Glassdoor that were laid off late last week. Word came out in a press release reported by Business Insider, Glassdoor has laid off 30%, roughly 300 folks I think. A source that contacted me said that most of the people laid off were in the SMB sales department, as well as a lot of the international folks around the world were let go. So the other insight to that is that it looks like Indeed, no surprise here, the SMB reps from Indeed are going to be taking over some of the accounts allegedly that are in Glassdoor. And my source also said that they expect Glassdoor to start not having original content for jobs soon, but that the job content will be Indeed. And people may be able to cross-post if they want, or have some sort of an upsell to Glassdoor that's sort of uncertain at this point. But I think that the corona economy has spurred a decision to be made of like, what are we going to do with Glassdoor? Are we going to continue to burn money on that when we don't have to? And I think Indeed and Recruit Holdings is deciding that they don't have to, and they're going to start laying off Glassdoor folks, plugging in Indeed folks. Chad: It'd be interesting to see the revenues around SMB, because obviously we saw Zip cut 40%, right. And they are very heavy on the SMB side. That's one of the big impacts that we're seeing here. Being able to reallocate resources or kind of merge some of those resources from a sales standpoint makes a hell of a lot of sense. I mean, just does from an overhead standpoint, doesn't mean that the brand's going to go away, just means that if I'm a sales guy, I have an opportunity to sell more and perspectively make more money, and that's not a bad thing. Do you think that this is the end of the Glassdoor brand or it's just a consolidation? Joel: Yeah, I don't think it's the immediate death because of the content around employer reviews. I think as long as people still go to the site, they associate Glassdoor with finding out the nitty gritty internal, whatever about a company. They'll still go to Glassdoor. That's not going to go away, but there's no reason why the job search component can't be eliminated and just be Indeed content just like they did with workology, just like they did with Simply Hired, which both still live. They can upsell through e-commerce, they can upsell through sales folks. I think that the accounting will go away. I think the marketing will probably go away. The sales people, it looks like are starting to go away. But the actual brand and the sit will live just because it's still generating reviews and CEO reviews and all that good stuff. Chad: Again, I think depending on the amount of revenue they're making off of jobs and just that content itself will be the clear indicator. And from a sales standpoint, if I can sell, if I'm just selling jobs on Indeed that automatically make it on to Glassdoor, that's somewhat exciting because I can say, "Oh look." But it's even more exciting if I have two products and I can go in and say, "Look, you can do this and I can double your pleasure, right? Double the fun." That to me makes more sense. But again, it depends on the kind of cash that they're pulling in from jobs on Glassdoor. Joel: I think another interesting Insight for me is we've been talking for weeks now about a mass Indeed layoff. What an interesting strategy if someone said, "Hey, we don't have to lay off Indeed folk, and fuck with the culture and disrupt everything. Let's just lay off Glassdoor folks and then move those Indeed folks into Glassdoor opportunities or more work or whatever." I think from a strategic standpoint, it sucks for Glassdoor, but it's nice for Indeed if this is the strategy to say, "We're not going to lay anybody off. In fact, we're going to give you more work or more opportunity through this little site we have called Glassdoor." Chad: And maybe, I don't know, create an entirely new product. Joel: Oh, you're such a good seguest. Chad: I'm not sure that I can get behind to be quite frank. Joel: Yeah. You're the RPO guy, so we heard a rumor this week that Indeed has a thousand some strong workforce dedicated to building out an RPO. What are your thoughts around that? And sort of, what do you think the legitimacy to such a claim is? Because saying a thousand people are hired to build this thing out is, you got to feel pretty confident about that rumor. Chad: Yeah. I mean, you do. And it came from a good source. I'm just Joel: They're reputable, yeah. Chad: Again, from my standpoint having RPO, understanding that the margins for RPO are much smaller than they are for staffing. They just shut down Prime or Seen or whatever the fuck they called it. But they just shut that down. And the margins there, and again, they're more of a transactional type of an organization. So that just fit into their groove. I didn't believe long-term that this would be what they would get into from a staffing standpoint. I thought it would be more of a technical technology that they would provide prospectively to staffing companies and obviously start taking cash off of that. But this Indeed RPO rumor really threw a curve at me because it just, to me, it didn't make sense. You have to have resources that are going to be outsourced specifically for organizations. Our source said that, well, you can tie people into RPO engagements much longer, which is true, there's no question. And it is more intimate, there's no question. But the RPOs spend a shit ton of cash with Indeed right now. There would be more resources, number one, which means more head count, which means more costs. Then they would have all of these RPOs that would say, "Okay, fuck you. I'm going home. We're going to have to do something else other than Indeed which means lost revenue." So all the way around, it just doesn't work for me. Joel: How much impact sort of Google in this decision to frankly get into something that Google will never get into. Do you think that had much to do with the decision, assuming that that's what they're doing? Chad: Yeah. I have no clue why they would go in this direction. Again, Prime didn't work, right? And Prime is an easier aspect. I mean, doing staffing versus RPO, they seem like they're the same, but they're fucking not. There's so much more that you have to do in RPO. And again, the margins are much thinner. Again, it just doesn't make sense to me overall, but if they are, man, I can't wait to pop the popcorn and watch what happens. Joel: Yeah. There are a few well-funded competitors out there. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. And I assume you also think this is probably a good thing for talent.com, and that more money may flow to them in light of this. Chad: Yeah. I think anything that Indeed does, anything that actually spreads them out and gets their laser focus out from making that product better and really focusing on the experience and getting more candidate data, and really driving the technology overall. I think that helps any of Indeed's competitors, the talent.coms and whatnot. Joel: Yeah, I agree. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about staying at home. JobAdX: Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate dropoff. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team. Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing, joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@J-O-B-A-D-X.com. Attract, engage, employ, with JobAdX. Chad: Staying at home. Joel: Stay at home. Jack Dorsey, the gangster move, says, "Twitter employees can work at home forever." Google announced that employees can stay at home through the end of the year and no doubt, more and more companies big and small will be making similar statements. Your thoughts. Chad: Yeah, I think he said that they're going to, they're probably going to open up offices in September, business travel is not going to happen. It's all canceled until whenever they open everything up. They're providing more of an allowance from their people to work at home. I think Jack Dorsey, and we'll talk about Google here in a minute, they're starting to understand that the way that we've been doing work for the last, shit, forever, is like the fifties mentality of come in, clock in, leave. Now, it might be different because you can get your orange juice for free or your PowerBar or something. But yeah, I mean, we're still working in that whole control focused environment where you have to have your butt in a seat for X amount of time. I think it's good. And I think what we're seeing is many of these organizations thought that they were going to see less productivity and they didn't. Joel: Urban flight is sort of the term that's being bantered around. There was a story in the New York Times today entitled, Manhattan Faces a Reckoning if Working From Home Becomes the Norm. Business Insider had a story on San Francisco and the impact of people working from home in light of Twitter and Google. To me, this is one of the most fascinating stories that will play out in the next decade or two. And if you think about just five years ago, everyone was talking about moving to cities. Everyone is moving to cities. Retirees are moving to cities for the amenities. Young people are moving to cities for everything that was there. And we've done a total 180 and cities now have hanging over them, high cost of living and now a health threat, right? People in close contact with each other is currently a really bad thing. What does Manhattan look like? What does downtown Chicago look like? What does San Francisco and big cities like that look like if people stay at home in the suburbs and people escape, so to speak in the suburbs? Joel: And I think that that trend and desire is at odds with just sort of human nature with a lot of people. Think about when you were 25. I lived in a 700 square foot apartment, right? I wanted to go to work. I wanted to socialize. I wanted to go out to the bars afterwards. I wanted to go to concerts and sporting events that were all downtown or in close proximity to where I was. Now that I'm old, working for home is not a big deal, as long as the three-year-old isn't running around. I mean, I have a home office as do you. It's not a big desire for me to sit in traffic for an hour and go to work in an office downtown. What do downtowns look like in this reality? Do you do part-time? Do young people come in and old people stay at home? I think this is a really interesting evolution with how cities and metro areas evolve in the next 10, 20 years. Speaking of popcorn, I'm going to have mine out to see how that plays out. Chad: Yeah, I think we need to strike a balance. I mean, just trying to get in an apartment or trying to live in Manhattan or San Francisco, it's ridiculous. I mean, you could pretty much pay my home mortgage payments, probably wouldn't get me a very large apartment or space in San Francisco or Manhattan. I think there's a balance that needs to be struck. And one of the things that we're focusing too much here on is the actual city itself. I think there will be people that can pull out, but also we're thinking about the small mom and pops that are in the suburbs that will be able to gain from this, right. So will some of the businesses in downtown go away? Yes. Maybe some of the food businesses, what have you, will they pop up and will they be more prosperous in the burbs? Yes. Will companies want their younger employees in to be able to make sure that they can nurture them and they can build them and their older employees, the ones who have more experience and whatnot, out and working from home, maybe not 100% of the time, but more of the time, I think makes a hell of a lot of sense. Chad: One of the things that we're not good at as human beings is balance. It's either here or there, we're either working our asses off or we're not working hard enough, right. There's not that balance. And I think this gives us an opportunity to really focus on that balance. It gives the cities an opportunity to, yes, they're going to wither a little bit, but when they wither, other areas will grow. And we as employers have to think about how our culture can grow out of this. Joel: Sure. And there's the reality of once they have a vaccine for this thing, do we all go back to kissing trees and being in close proximity with each other? Human behavior says, yes, we are going to go back to the way that we were and maybe this experiment will end differently than I could imagine. But I think for now, it's a really fascinating study with how this disaster is going to impact cities around the world. Clearly as a hot zone, New York, won't be the same for a very long time, I can imagine. Chad: Yeah, I agree. And once again, I think employers are starting to see that they don't have to really focus on the high cost of bringing your people in to these buildings when they can work from home. I mean, just the overhead that they can save and hopefully put back into the employees instead of fucking stock buybacks or some shit like that. We can start to see that the productivity is actually there. We can get what we need and we can have happier people. And if we have happier people then they stay longer, yada, yada, yada. Joel: Yeah, fascinating changes. Let's take a quick break and hear from Sovren. And then we'll talk about that Carnival Cruise that we both booked for next month. Chad: Oh God. Sovren: Sovren parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: This next one is filed under humans are stupid. And talking about, will we just go back to our old routines? Well, last week Carnival announced that some of its cruises could resume in August. And since that announcement, Carnival's bookings shot up 600%. Now that's compared to just the previous three days, right? When nobody was doing anything in the first place. But here's the big comparison, it's up, August, 2020, bookings are up 200% over August, 2019, bookings. Back when nobody was worried about death ships, right? Joel: Right. Chad: This is ridiculous, I mean seriously. Now, some of these people, and I know, I was actually giving a friend shit the other day, because she's already booked a Carnival Cruise or some type of cruise. But we're talking about cruises for as low as $28 a night. And I guess a floating Petri dish, if it's cheap is okay. Fuck, I don't know. Joel: Did they talk about throwing in a free month of lockdown as part of people being sick on the boat as part of the reservation? Yeah. I think that when we look at pent-up demand for this stuff, you can't really underestimate the stupidity of people and feeling bulletproof. Obviously a lot of these people are probably young and are stupid. But August is a really quick turnaround to just get on a boat with a pandemic going on in the world. Chad: Yes. Joel: If it was August 2021, I could see, yeah, okay, let's roll the dice on 28 bucks a night. And we can cancel if the world is still ending at that point. But August is really early for this shit to go down. But it also goes in contrast to people, people on CNN and MSNBC were talking about, "Oh, we'll open and nobody will go because there'll be scared." Well, no, things are opening and people don't give a shit. I mean, there are scenes of bars in Wisconsin, no masks, bars open, people hugging like nothing is going on. And we're going to see a spike again and maybe people will learn at that point. Or we may just decide, you know what? Mother Nature is going to take some of us out and that's the price of being born, and we're going to move on with our lives as we always have. And damn it, that's the American way. If we're willing to do that, that's fine. As personal choices, I, myself, am going to be a lot more careful than taking cruises in August. People have the right to choose and live their lives. If they want to do it on a boat and put everyone at risk, do you outlaw that? Do you make it ... I mean, it's a tough to call for the governments, right? And by the way, Carnival Cruises, all their corporations are set up in the Caribbean and tax havens. I don't even know if they're under the same rules and regulations. Chad: No is the quick answer. I think we also have to think about, since these cruise lines haven't been filling the skies with all plumes of smoke. Take a look at the water, take a look at the skies. I mean, everything, again, when we the human beings who seem to be the virus on this fucking planet right now, when we just have to lock down for a few months, the earth starts to heal itself. We start seeing jellyfish in Italy in the canals. Will we ever learn? And I guess the answer is no. Joel: Mother Nature is historically a pretty strident teacher in lessons. And whether it's either war, famine or disease, nature has a way of balancing out everything on the planet. Chad: That's what a virus will do, it'll bounce some shit out. Joel: You're bringing me down, man. ZipRecruiter new logo joke we think happened this week. Chad: It's got to be. Joel: Ian, the CEO, posted in LinkedIn or Twitter, or maybe both, a mythical new logo for ZipRecruiter. That is a couch with a cat on it, which I assume is a work from home reference. The logo has not changed on their own website, which makes us think it's a joke. Although it's potentially a little tone deaf after you just laid off a lot of people, thoughts. Chad: It has to be a joke. Yes, it would be tone deaf, but there's no way that Ian in ZipRecruiter could follow CareerBuilder, cut 40% of your people and then spend money on new branding and shit. And we saw that from CareerBuilder. I mean as soon as, one week, they chopped heads, the next week they came out with a new slogan and they were spending money on ads, on TV ads. Overall, upticks from that is shit. If I'm a company, I'm a hiring company, I don't want to be associated and/or affiliated with any organization that can do that. I hope this is a joke, because if this is real, you and Arina are having drinks somewhere. Joel: Where the puck is going, the famous great one, Wayne Gretzky quote. Maybe this is how Ian deals with stress. Some people make jokes and laugh about stuff that's stressful. Maybe this is just his way of venting and feeling better about things. But he probably could have done it on a private network or an email to his mom or something as opposed to publicly putting it out there. But live and learn man, live and learn. Chad: That's right. Everybody just take a deep breath right now. We're going to get through this, unless you're on a Carnival Cruise. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Chester: Thank you for listening to podcast with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out. #Paradox #Chatbots #AI #Glassdoor #Indeed #IndeedPrime #RPO #ZipRecruiter #Google #Twitter

It's the damned Wild West out there. - Job boards gaming Google for Jobs - Indeed possibly hitting the panic button? - A "jobs data store"? All on this episode of VOICES with Venkat Janapareddy, CEO of Jobiak. Brought to you by Chad and Cheese - HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Subscribe at chadcheese.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Morgan: Voices, we hear them every day. Some voices like mine are smooth and comforting. While on the other hand, The Chad and Cheese Podcast is like listening to a Nickelback album. You rather stab yourself in the ears with an ice pick. Anyway, you’re now listening to Voices, a podcast series from Chad and Cheese, that features the most important and influential voices within the recruitment industry. Try not to fuck it up boys. Joel: And Indeed is still not playing with Google for Jobs, correct? Chad: Yet. Venkat: Not yet. They could be. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Welcome back. We're picking the conversation up with entrepreneur and CEO of Jobiak, Venkat Janapareddy. Joel: We know that much of the success of Google in terms of just their searches, external factors, backlinking obviously was sort of their original way that they became Google, right? Sites linking to you were basically votes saying that you're a good site. How much of that is going on with Google for Jobs? One example that I'm thinking of is, maybe does having a good rating on Glassdoor, Indeed reviews or CareerBliss or whatever, do those play into ranking well on Google for Jobs? What externally is there a factor of if any? Venkat: Yeah, so the company reviews, if you put a link with list of reviews from Glassdoor, that's a big, big, big jump to you. Of course, you have good reviews, if you have bad ones obviously you're not going to do well. Some of these RMPs, even us when we publish our jobs, we get the reviews from Indeed or Glassdoor and we show up, that's given. If you put in the reviews, if you put in the salary estimates you tend to do well. As far as backlinking, this is where the job ads did a phenomenal job. As I said, if you look at sales jobs on Google right now, page one is always job ads. First one, second one, of course first is Google for Jobs. The second one is Indeed and then ZipRecruiter. Those guys have invested lots of lots of money in SEO. And a single job whether it's Jobble, LinkedIn or Glassdoor, if I go and create a job there, they create a hundred different backlinking pages for that one job. Venkat: If I am putting a Java developer for Fidelity Investments in Boston, what they do is, okay, Boston tech jobs, Fidelity jobs, Boston Java jobs, Boston local jobs, they're just creating this hundreds and hundreds of backlinking pages and publishing them to Google. Now Google thinks, wow, this job is linked elsewhere. And of course [inaudible 00:03:32.14] and Indeed have good publisher programs. Now these are also getting distributed hundreds and hundreds of job ads and they have backlinking going on. And SEO, Indeed has become so powerful because they've invested significant money. Google today they still get almost 140 million visits per month from Google. So the backlinking does really help. That really helps in terms of if you have six jobs, same job coming from six of them, the site that owns, let's say you post a job from Fidelity Investment and the job is coming from LinkedIn, Glassdoor, some other site, the backlinking the site apparently is what plays a role and who's going to show up on first. Of course there are other secrets, but one of the big one is how powerful are you? Who owns the original content and how powerful are you in terms of SEO authority? And a lot of that SEO authority depends on backlinking. Joel: Now did you say Indeed gets 140 million visitors a month through Google organic? Venkat: Yes. Right now they're getting almost 450 million visits and 40% of the traffic is still coming for Google organic. And as I said at the beginning, the visit, the Google for Jobs visit is now taken 38%. It started with 5%, last year it was around 20% to 30%, but as it picks up Indeed is going to have a serious problem because the traffic is going to slow down. And of course, now it's live everywhere worldwide. So if 38% could become 70%, 80%, then that will be a huge loss to Indeed. Joel: How do you know that number? Venkat: It is from SimilarWeb, SEM rush, the two apps, if you go there it's public information, they tell you. Especially SimilarWeb is free. If you go there, they give you all the traffic and how much they're getting from organic. Joel: And Indeed is still not playing with Google for Jobs, correct? Chad: Yet. Venkat: Not yet. They could be. Joel: In some countries we've seen it, but not big ones. Chad: Now, it was a recommended search. It wasn't actually in the feed. Joel: Okay. Chad: That was something that Google recommended, that wasn't something that Indeed actually had anything to do with. Joel: And we've heard rumors that Indeed is sort of backdooring getting onto Google for Jobs by putting them on Glassdoor. Do you see any evidence of that? Venkat: Not on Glassdoor. Simply Hired, we used to see them at some point. I think they're being shut down. They were pushing lots of jobs for Simply Hired even though it's part of Indeed. The reason why we think Indeed is going to get on to Google for Jobs is organic. When Google for Jobs was launched, organic is still Indeed. And now these jobs are starting to show up. The jobs that you push on Google for Jobs, you can find them. So if Microsoft is pushing a thousand jobs on Google for Jobs. If I am looking for Microsoft tech jobs or Microsoft sales job, you actually don't see Indeed name or being the second one. You actually see those jobs. That's where the biggest fear is. Chad: On the organic? Venkat: On organic. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Very interesting. Venkat: The details, the jobs are coming on the organic, then they'll panic and they'll have no choice but to work with Google for Jobs to stabilize the overall traffic. Chad: How long do you think that's going to take? I mean because you've seen a jump from 5% to 38%. I mean that's a huge dent in Indeed's traffic and that's all they are. I mean Indeed is just a traffic engine. I remember when I was working with Randstad Sourceright, the RPO, Indeed came in, did a presentation and they said don't even buy ad words, right? Don't do any SEM whatsoever because we're going to out buy you. We're putting more money into SEM than you can, right? So that was their whole role on that side of the house. And I understand the SEM is different than the SEO, but they also rode very heavily on the SEO piece. What's their strategy and how long do you think it's going to take for them to actually jump into on the Google for Jobs bandwagon? Venkat: I think very soon. My guess is because of this organic traffic going down. But it's going to be interesting if they decide to jump on Google for Jobs because Indeed has probably, in the US alone they have 3.5 million jobs. But worldwide I expect that to be 20 to 30 million jobs. And Indeed dump all of them on Google for Jobs. I think the whole experience with Google is going to take a hit because imagine you go to Google for Jobs, every other job now says apply on Indeed, because Indeed is the king of SEO. Everything I just talked about Google for Jobs becoming SEO for jobs, if they jump onto it, it's good for Indeed, but I think Google for Jobs is going to take a major hit because it's just going to ruin the candidate experience. Because the reason Google for Jobs was born, because they're sick and tired of seeing the same job ads on page one. You never see the initial landing pages on page one, but now Indeed jumps on it, they're just going back to the way before Google for Jobs. Chad: Yeah, but don't you think they will put a governor on that per se. I mean if they have that kind of like wave of content coming in, I can't imagine that they'll just allow that to happen, can you? Venkat: Actually that's a good question. I was going to ask you guys. I don't know because Chad: I don't think they'll let it happen. I think they'll allow the jobs in. I just don't think they will allow them to flush up into the top six and just own Google for Jobs. I don't think they will allow that. Venkat: Again, Google, as long as you have a good landing page, they just can't discriminate, hey, if you are from Indeed I'm not going to show up in top six. That'll create lots of problems for Google, but again, Indeed overnight they can create phenomenal landing pages given their SEO knowledge and automatically they show up. Again, that's going to be interesting, actually I'd love to see your thoughts. There is no way Google can say no because then they'll sue. It'll become a huge antitrust issue if they say no to Indeed, but it's going to be interesting. Chad: I don't think they say no, I just think that they come up with a different algorithm that does not allow a flood of these jobs into the top six. Now if you continue to search and you go past the top six, then you start seeing Indeed jobs. So there it is, there's proof. There's indeed jobs, they're in, they're available, but they're not in the top six. Whatever that reason could be from Google, I just can't imagine them allowing Indeed to just flush and again own like they used to own the organic, to own Google for Jobs. I mean it would ... why in the hell have Google for Jobs in the first place? Venkat: Yeah, that's a good point Chad. My thinking is if you look at job ads right now, they are kind of abusing Google for Jobs. The apply process is very, very confusing for candidates. Chad: Registrations, all that shit. Venkat: Yeah, some of these applies. Even LinkedIn which I used to have a lot of respect. You click on apply on LinkedIn from Google for Jobs. You land on LinkedIn, you click on apply, you go to some other job ad, they take your resume information, then they toss you back to another job ad. It takes almost two to three steps before you land on career page. And that's more than Indeed, it's a huge problem because Google brand is starting to take a hit right now. A lot of candidates are not happy with this whole multistep approach and some candidates actually think it's Google and the employer doing and forcing them to go through all these job ads, they don't understand the way why these jobs are all going through this multistep process. Again, the Valley told Google that it's a huge, huge problem this multistep process. Either Indeed come or not, they have to do something like what Craigslist did. Venkat: Job seekers should be able to find, hey, show me only jobs directly from employers. Craigslist you can go and say, "Hey, no third party, just show me people who are selling directly from owners." If they don't do something like that, this Google for Jobs is not going to get any better than Indeed. The job ads is a mess. I hope they do something because not only did they duplicate LinkedIn and some of these job ads. They're not doing a good job on deduping, so some of our customer's job, the same job shows of five different variations. If you have a registered nurse, there'll be another job registered nurse hyphen Boston [inaudible 00:13:03.20]. Chad: Yeah, they're gaming. Venkat: They're gaming and they're not in, Google for Jobs is not really their priority right now for Google. So the deduping is become a huge problem. We have already informed Google about this multistep approach in deduping. I'm sure they're working on it, but right now it's a big problem for job seekers. Joel: So if I could chime in here for a second. So if I'm Google, and one of the things that we're saying in terms of a broad SEO and commentary that's going on, there is something called no click search. We've all been to Google and search lyrics or recipes or when a celebrity was born and basically you don't have to leave Google to get the answer to that question, right? It obviously pisses off web publishers because the traffic they used to get to know the lyrics of Stairway to Heaven. Now they just get that from Google and they never go to your website, right? So they don't see your banners, they don't see any of that stuff. What I think Google should do or will do is eventually you'll see these jobs like you do now, you don't have to go to the website, but now to apply you have to go to the website. Joel: What I think Google will do is eventually create a apply through Google button that everyone can voluntarily put into their job postings. And job seekers will eventually learn, well, I don't want to go click apply on LinkedIn and then go to LinkedIn and then do whatever. I'd rather just click my apply with Google and be done with it. Now, you don't have to put the button on your job descriptions, but eventually your applications through your site will go down significantly because job seekers will learn, I'm just going to apply with Google. And Indeed if they do go on Google for Jobs, they'll eventually have to come to grips with, do we have the apply with Google button or do we have to make them apply through Indeed. And that'll be an interesting question that I think job sites will have to answer. But if I were Google, that's eventually where I would go. Chad: They can't do it. Venkat: I thought when Google for Jobs was announced in 2017, I thought that's their goal. Three, four years from now, they just don't want job seekers to leave Google. Just find the job, you have your resume in Gmail and you click on apply and you're done. And then behind the scenes, their resumes are among those ATS career centers, that's why they still have this other product Google Jobs Discovery. That's where this whole integration comes in. I always thought when Google announced Google for Jobs that's the real vision and that's where they can make lots and lots of money. That's where they can truly disrupt and avoid all this multistep and spamming issue. Joel: And be a real competitor to LinkedIn and Facebook. Chad: Yeah. But I don't see it being Google, I see it being Google providing services to the RMPs and the applicant tracking system, just like Venkat was just talking about. They have services through APIs that you can utilize to be able to do that through your platform. So it's not Google doing it because there's a severe antitrust issue if you just do a straight apply on Google, so that is a non-starter. Joel: But not if it's the site volunteering to do that. If I'm LinkedIn and I volunteer to put apply through Google on my site, that's not an antitrust issue. Chad: That is something that iCIMS let's say for instance, or the actual applicant tracking system or the job board is using correct. But there's a distinct difference between Google doing it directly and then doing it through different providers. So yeah, if they're doing it through providers, I agree. And I would love to see something like that happen, an API for job search, an API for candidate matching slash application, those types of things. But yeah, that's a nuance that we definitely have to talk about. Venkat: Yeah. Chad I agree with you right now. They're already having issues in Europe. I'm sure you guys are aware, lots of job ads have sent a letter. The European Commission sent a letter to Google saying, "Why do you show up on first?" I think if you notice in the last six months there hasn't been much happening at Google for Jobs. I don't think they'll make this progress as fast as we think. I think they've slowed down a little bit ever since this whole antitrust thing came from Europe. I don't know what's going on right now. I don't see this as antitrust. They're pretty much working with job ads. I think their problem is, like travel, Google is dominating travel right now. They're making billions of dollars just by showing up the first, and Expedia and KAYAK, they're out taking a major hit. The question really is, does Google deserve to be the first one when I'm typing sales jobs in Boston. It's good for us, we depend on Google, but from European job ads, why do you show up first? We've been working under your guidelines, we're following SEO. We've invested millions of dollars. We should be the first one. It's going to be interesting to see what's going to come out from Europe. I think that's one of the reasons they've slowed down a little bit. Chad: Look for more episodes of Voices. This Chad and Cheese podcast series devoted the stories and opinions of industry leaders. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Podcast or wherever you get your podcast, so you don't miss a single show. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #VOICES #Jobiak #GoogleforJobs #RMP #ATS #Indeed #data

Another 3.2 million Americans filed for unemployment this week, bringing the total job loss to at least 33 million since the national lockdown, so how's your day going? On this week's episode: - iCIMS gets cozy with Microsoft, - CareerBuilder wants to unload, - Monster throws a Hail Mary ...and robots are corona-safe, so bow down to your metallic overlords. Enjoy and share our sponsors some TLC: Sovren, Canvas, and JobAdx. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides comprehensive website accessibility testing with personalized recommendations to enhance usability for people with a variety of disabilities or situational limitations. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Another 3.2 million Americans filed for unemployment this week, bringing the total job loss to at least 33 million since the corona lockdown. Chad: Fuck. Joel: How's your week going, Chad? Chad: Aargh. Joel: Hey kids, and welcome to another installment of The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel, where's my bailout, Cheesman. Chad: I'm Chad, lockdown and pissed off, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's episode, CareerBuilder wants to unload. Monster throws a Hail Mary and robots are corona safe, so bow down to your metallic overlords while you listen to this spot from one of our cherished advertisers. Sovren: Sovren parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: Software so human you'll want it to come to work for you because it can't catch the coronavirus. Joel: Eat the dinner with a mask and gloves and six feet of separation. Chad: Yes. Luckily this last weekend here in the US or at least in Indiana, in Columbus, Indiana, we can get out and run and walk the dogs and those types of things. And Julie actually got out and she completed her first half marathon. SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: So that's a big applause for that. She actually beat her stretch goal and ran home after that. I think she ran home faster because she knew that a Summer Shandy was waiting for her. Joel: Are we sure she wasn't just running away from you because she's been in lockdown with you for too much? Chad: She was probably running away from me for the most part, yeah. She's like, "How much time can I spend away from this asshole?" Joel: Because it takes everything I have not to slit my wrists after every podcast with you at this point. Chad: Oh, you're so sweet. Joel: I know, I'm so sweet. It's a beautiful day out today. Again, four weeks and the world heals itself. It's nice. Shout-Out to Terry Baker for a myriad of things. One, sending us booze, which we always love. Chad: Love it. Joel: But we had a surprise guest appearance on the PandoLogic Zoom meeting encompassing people from around the world. I'll name a few of the people notably aside from Terry, Brendan Macomber, who's a big fan, actually had an image of us as his background. Chad: He's awesome. Joel: Which mental issues. I'm going to call him the Israeli Arnold Schwarzenegger. Chad: Moshe. Joel: Moshe. Yeah, right. That was fun. And then Erin Karchefsky, a Brown fan who actually had the Browns helmet as her logo, that was a lot of fun. And then shout-out to those guys at PandoLogic. Chad: Yes. They had some really good questions and I think there are many unanswered questions from the group. It was a large group, but from the group. I think we might come back just to have a Q&A session, because they were asking some hard questions. I really enjoy that kind of shit. Joel: Reaffirmation that you weren't hugged enough as a child. You have to continually Zoom bomb these corporate meetings. Shout-out to Death Matches. You're dropping these this week and into next week I believe. Chad: Yeah, we've got Cloud RPO that's dropped. Optimal just dropped today. SonicJobs is going to be out soon. And then the grand champ JobSync. I mean it was a virtual event, but that was pretty fun, right? Joel: I had a lot of fun. I mean we didn't have mimosas and bloody marys on demand, but we certainly had Chad: We had beer. Joel: We had the kegerator on hand for sure, so I'm not hating life too much. Chad: And thanks to all of the contestants, TAtech and those wacky kids over at Pontoon Solutions. Joel: No doubt. Craig. Chad: After all of that time with Craig at Pontoon Solutions, can you actually say that you finally understand what RXO is? Joel: I do understand what RXO is and I want a Grim Reaper, whatever the hell that thing was that Craig had branded RXO for my office if that's possible. Chad: Yes, you should get one of those, but I still don't believe that you know what RXO means. Next shout-out goes to Jacob Dooley, founder of start-up ShopHire.co. He said the brand relevance podcast episode that we did from Banff was money, and I'm paraphrasing. Joel: It was. Very cool. Very cool. Well, I'm excited this week or this coming week, we're going to be doing another round of Death Matches. These will air on the 19th, tatech.org, register today if you haven't already. Sponsored by Joveo, our new buddies, who have great taste in booze as well. Shout-out to ... I got a Four Roses Small Batch. You don't know quite yet what you're getting. Chad: Picking mine up tomorrow, so really excited about that. These guys, they're actually creating custom Zoom backgrounds for us. Obviously getting us bourbon. KJ over at Joveo will be judging with us but I wonder, and here's a challenge, I wonder if he's going to have a cocktail in hand when he's doing it with us because we will. Joel: That'll be interesting. We've seen the backgrounds and they are safe for our kids, so it's okay to watch during work. We know it's easy to put headphones on, but we want to make sure the visuals are safe for work Chad: Exactly. Joel: ... and we've made sure to do that. Chad: And real quick to the contestants. Joel: Absolutely. Chad: We have Adam Chambers and Applichat. Joel: Yep. Our favorite Hispanic Irishman. Chad: That's right. Joel: That'll be fun. Chad: Yeah, that guy can salsa with the best of other Irish men. Scot Sessions and TalVista. Our favorite Russian, Aida Fazylova at XOR.ai. And I'm really excited that Bradley Cooper will be pitching for RexTxt. I can't believe Bradley Cooper is going to be on the show. Joel: Yeah. He kind of looks a little Bradley ask actually, not really. Chad: Oh, wait a minute. That's Clark, shit, Bradley Clark. Goddamn it. For fuck's sake. Joel: It's okay. I'm encouraging them to come as Doug and Bob McKenzie from Strange Brew, an eighties comedy classic. And also my first exposure to Canada I think as a child. Chad: Shout-out to Tara Repecci from Beamery for listening to the show and connecting on the socials, been seeing a lot of engagement from the people over at Beamery. Thanks for listening Tara and all your friends over at Beamery. Joel: Cool. A shout-out to Erik Kostelnik. Some will remember Erik, we've interviewed him once or twice. Chad: He's going Postal, right? Joel: Founder of TextRecruit. He just launched his new company Postal.io this week. And their motto is offline is the new online. What they do, it's pretty interesting, they try to sort of create analytics around, I don't know, old school mailings, sending gifts, cards, postcards, whatever. When you're trying to cut through the clutter and people's inboxes are full with spam, sometimes getting a letter in the mail is the best marketing. Shout-out to him, best of luck. He got $9 million too, so he's got that going for him. Chad: Yeah. And it's sales and marketing and there's a shit ton of money in those industries as we all know. So incredibly smart, which obviously we know Erik is. Big shout-out to a Satish Kumar, COO of GLIDER.ai. Thanks for listening buddy and connecting on the socials. Joel: Shout-out to probably my favorite honey badgers of corporate America these days, Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos. I know you love both those guys. Elon sort of went off the rails this week, had a kid, he tweeted out, our stock is too high. The stock then went down 10%. He's brilliant, but he's a freak. And apparently they named the kid, he had a kid with pop star Grimes or alternative star Grimes. I don't know if she's Canadian, so a whole different country. He had an interesting week. And then Bezos, and we talked about Bezos taking over Amazon again. He's back, he's bad, he's rested, he's ready. I encourage you to open your mind to a new Bezos era at Amazon. He said, "Stockholders, I know you want me to announce that we have profits." But he said, "Sorry." They're putting like $4 billion to be a corona woke organization in terms of keeping employees safe, paying people more. I'm just keeping the door open for Jeff to take the reigns of this whole employment branding situation they have and making it better, improving it, and hopefully even proving to you that they can turn things around at Amazon for the employees. Chad: Yeah. Fuck employment branding. Let's just bring humanity back to Amazon overall. SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: Yeah, good luck with that. Hopefully we can Jeff, that would be great. As he kicks humans out the door and he starts to throw robots in the warehouses. A big shout-out to our friends over at HiQ Labs. They have a response going to The Supreme Court soon. Just want to say, go get them guys. Obviously we had you on very early talking about this pretty much from day one. And if you are a start-up, if you're in this industry and you're not one of the 800 pound gorillas, you should do everything you can to support HiQ in this case. Because they, my opinion, they are representing the little guy that is focused on innovation and LinkedIn in this case, sons of bitches who were trying to squeeze all of those different start-ups and really suffocate them. Joel: Apparently from the news, at least one of the judges is open to hearing the case. And I don't know the specifics of when they confirmed hearing a case or not, but the door is open, but we don't quite know yet whether it will be heard at The Supreme Court at this point, unless you know something I don't. Chad: I do not. And I hope we take a little time and the rest of them look at it and see that this is just fucking travesty. Kick it out and let the boys do their work. Joel: Yeah. And speaking of kicking it out, I'm going to give a shout-out to Wendy's. I don't know if you've heard Chad, but your meatless dreams may be coming true. Apparently one in five Wendy's now cannot provide hamburgers to its customers thanks to the corona deficits of workers and the supply chain. It's been a big week also for all the meatless solutions out there, Beyond Meat. All the ones I've not even had one of those. But yeah, your meatless dreams may be coming true, so shout-out to you as well. Chad: I'm going to go on a quick rant and kind of hearken back to London last year during Recfest. I asked Torin Ellis when we were interviewing him, what can a couple of white guys do to help movement toward equality? And Torin said, "Simply speak up." When you see shit's wrong, say something about it. I'm going to take a minute just to do that. Ahmaud Arbery, 25 year old young man was jogging in a Brunswick neighborhood in Georgia on February 23rd, when a man and his son chased him down telling police later they thought he looked like a suspect in a series of recent break-ins in the area. Chad: Let's break this down real quick. Two white guys hop in a truck to hunt down another human. Why? Because quote, they thought he looked like a suspect in a series of recent break-ins. Now this is in broad daylight. They loaded up the truck, complete with guns to face a young man who was jogging. And this happened in late February. And from my standpoint, I just heard about it the other day. The young man's dead, he was shot to death and nobody's in jail. As a white dude who is an ally and needs equality, not just for us but for our nation, for us to be sustainable as a people. This shit's got to stop. Joel: Yeah. The real travesty of your rant and it's totally warranted is the two that did it are in jail, they're not in custody. Admittedly you and I don't know there needs to be a day in court, which hopefully will happen, but this shit is just ridiculous. People taking law into their own hands. There's obviously a race element to this that we'll probably find out at some point. We had something in Indiana I think that you shared recently in terms of Chad: Yeah, last night. Joel: Yeah, in terms of this shit. And speaking up is what we should do and we should do more of it. I know, I think I speak for both of us to say, we'll be more conscientious allies like Torin that are helping us to see these things. It's apparently a fairly old news story and you and I just sort of know about it. And I don't know if I would have heard about it had Torin not brought it up to us, so thanks to him. And we will continue to spread the gospel on that. Chad: Well, in stark contrast to motherfuckers showing up in Michigan with assault weapons, right. None of them dead. None of them in jail, right. Stark contrast, a young man was jogging, okay. So yeah, we've got some things that we have to fix and we have to understand that there is an equality and a racism issue here in the US and that comes every single day to our offices as well. This is not just outside the office. All of those thoughts and feelings are also brought in with them. We just have to remind ourselves that we together have to get better and we can't stand for this shit. We have to speak up. Joel: By the way in our binge worthy, our binge obsessed viewing habits. I want to recommend on Netflix, if you haven't watched When They See Us. It's about the the five young African American men in the eighties who were convicted of rape falsely. Super downer of a series, but very enlightening and eyeopening. And then sort of another one on the other side of the fence I guess is Waco. If you haven't watched Waco, it's pretty interesting. And neither of those series paint law enforcement in a very good picture. But still I think worth your time if you're looking for something to watch, Waco and When They See Us. Chad: Yes. I'm going to take a deep breath. Joel: Breathe Jerry, breathe. Chad: And that's the serious part of the podcast. Let's go ahead and hit topics. Joel: All right, fair enough. Let's hit the bell. Chad: iCIMS snuggles up to Microsoft. Did you see this thing? Joel: Whoa, I did see this. And so correct me if I'm wrong, but iCIMS has been Microsoft's ATS for a long time. Chad: Yeah, they have. Joel: They've sort of been dating for a while and it looks like they're starting to get a little freaky with each other in this news item. Chad: Yeah. I mean, and we're talking about two entirely different sides of the same coin, right. When talent acquisition chooses to use your platform over their own, that's a little bit different than something like this because this is more on the biz dev side. But here's a quote from the press release. iCIMS announced a new partnership with Microsoft. iCIMS has joined the Microsoft partner ecosystem as a recruiting software provider to bring Dynamics 365 human resources users comprehensive talent acquisition solutions. This builds on the current partnership between iCIMS and LinkedIn Talent Solutions. And this is actually the GM of Dynamics talking, through this partnership, mutual users will be empowered to attract and hire people seamlessly between iCIMS and Microsoft. My big question to you, did you read the press release and did you see who was actually quoted from iCIMS on this one? Joel: Ooh, I did not. I think it was the the head of tech, right? Chad: No, it was Mike Wilczak. And remember what Mike does, he is the major dude around M&A. Do you think this is a perspective angling for acquisition? Joel: Yes Chad, I do. Thanks for throwing the softball to me. LinkedIn has had their ATS for two years now, maybe going three since they've sort of like thrown it out to the market. Would any of us be surprised if two years later they said, you know what guys, eh, it's all right, maybe we should start getting cozy with an ATS player that really knows how to do this shit, insert iCIMS, insert partnership. You can write this script, you know how the story's going to end. But I got to think that if we're not reporting iCIMS acquired by Microsoft in a year, yeah, we're way wrong on this one, but this is probably going to happen quicker than we think. Chad: Well, and I got to give props to Mike and iCIMS. I mean, Mike Wilczak and the M&A strategy for iCIMS themselves is incredibly smart. The marketplace, it's free. Some conditions that are in there, but still that they get an opportunity at that point to see that tech, to be able to partner up with that tech. But looking the other way for bigger entities like Microsoft to do the same thing with them, they're using their same dating game for the smaller organizations that they're looking to acquire. I feel like they're doing it the other way as well with organizations like Microsoft. Joel: And don't forget iCIMS has a new CEO if I don't get this wrong, that's the former Marketo founder who knows a little bit about acquisitions and would probably be a nice piece of talent to add to the Microsoft team there. I think that probably is a nice incentive for them too. Chad: Yeah, Steve Lucas, he is freshly minted as the CEO. But again as you'd said, was over at Marketo. Joel: Acquisition baby, call it, slam dunk. That's one of the easiest predictions ever. Chad: I've got a good feeling about this one. One thing I don't have a good feeling about is CareerBuilder. Joel: No, not at all. Not at all. They were in the news this past week. They're looking to unload a whole lot of office space. If you're not familiar, CareerBuilder owns an entire headquarters in downtown Chicago. It's an 85,000 square foot office on LaSalle street, which actually overlooks whatever river runs through Chicago. I'm sure someone knows who's listening, but I don't. They're looking to sublet basically all of it. The sublet availability flyer, the promo for it is defined as long-term. CareerBuilder is apparently looking to sublet this place and sublet it for a very long time. Chad: Yeah. Mid last month they started furlough slash layoffs, and we predicted that this was going to be an atrophy, and this is part of it and I just think the business is going to atrophy much faster than what we possibly thought would happen. And the river that runs through Chicago is the Chicago River Joel: Sorry, I was thinking the Cuyahoga, but that's a totally different city. Chad: The Chattahoochee, no, that's not it. Joel: The Nile is not just a river. Chad: It's something we live in every day. Then we jumped from CareerBuilder to Monster and they are looking at a Hail Mary with nursing. Joel: Monster, although trials and tribulations are less public, I guess. They're obviously going through tough times. In accordance to that, they're launching monster.com/nurses, which probably existed before this, but they're highlighting it now. In recognition of, I guess it's National Nurses Week this week, so shoutout to all the nurses as well. But they're launching this site hoping that they can sort of piggyback on the whole healthcare phenomenon, hiring nurses. They're also offering free, let me verify this, but I think some of the nursing job postings are free or really discounted. Chad: Yes. I think some of the actual healthcare categorized jobs. The interesting thing for me is Monster, we've seen Monster over the years do this and not do it incredibly well, where they've gone incredibly niche and then right back out to general, right. They just got rid of a site that was a trucking site, remember the trucking technology. So they, it's Joel: Smart move that was. Chad: Yeah. I mean it's just doesn't feel go figure like they know what they're doing, like they have any real discipline for any of this. And I understand that you have to pivot, you have to angle, especially in these types of situations. But my question is, other than just partitioning off your database for categorized healthcare workers and then providing healthcare jobs for free, what are you bringing to us? Because none of that's innovative, none of it. What do you bring into it? And I just don't see it with this, so thanks but no thanks. Joel: Yeah. It's, hey, we have nursing jobs, let's create a landing page saying we're all about nurses and blah, blah, blah, and then give our sales team some new ammunition to go out to healthcare companies and hospitals, et cetera, and say, "Hey, we have this new nursing channel. You need to buy into it." When there's really nothing unique, there's no content really that's unique dedicated to nurses. There's no social media or networking technology or platform where nurses can connect with each other, learn stuff. There's no podcast for nurses sponsored by Monster to help people be better nurses. It's just setting up shop cardboard, a storefront to try to get more customers into something that isn't really even there. An old tactic that doesn't work. Chad: Yeah. Well, and it's something that everybody can see through, it's smoke and mirrors, right? If there's an actual initiative, then let's talk about the initiative. What does it do? What's innovative? There's nothing innovative here. But what I do think is smart and is something that very focused and disciplined organizations can pull off is a niche website, right? I think this is, and we saw a ... you actually shared an article that really was focused on the rise of niche sites. Joel: This is Andreessen Horowitz, is a pretty famous well known VC firm in the Valley. Mark Andreessen, famous for Netscape browser and creating sort of the modern internet. They had a really interesting blog post on their corporate site recently that talked about the need and the value of niche job sites and that they should be being built immediately. Or like entrepreneurs should be looking at building these niche sites immediately. And the primary premise is to say, look, in normal economies sites are built, the Craigslist, the LinkedIns, the Indeeds, they're built for a 3% to 6% unemployment rate, right? We're looking at 30% to 40% unemployment rates. The scale at which people need to be employed, the scale at which a restaurant needs waiters and cooks or really any business that needs specific talent or specialized professionals really can accomplish what they need to accomplish on general type sites. Joel: Niche sites need to be created, which is sort of a, let's go back to the future moment because niche sites used to be everywhere, and every Tom, Dick and Harry and their mother was creating local niche sites, industry niche sites, regional niche sites, and they were all over the place and they existed because Google helped drive traffic to them when people searched Toledo jobs or nursing jobs. And a lot of those niche sites are gone for a variety of reasons. But I don't really see it being realistic that a bunch of niche sites are going to start popping up the way Andreessen Horowitz sort of hopes it will or thinks it will. Chad: I agree. I think we've been talking about Alexander Mann Solutions hourly product that just was pushed out. I think being able to really be hyper-focused in a specific area, in this case hourly workers, and most of those essential workers that are out there today are hourly workers. But also you have Indeed with sift that's out there that we really haven't seen them do anything with. They could really find a niche and if they focused and poured money into something like that, it will work with what they're already doing with Indeed as it is. It's just the process methodology of being able to provide an experience for a specified type of worker much like hourly does. I think there's great opportunity that is out there. Much like you, I don't think it is related to just popping up new websites for hospitality and restaurant and all these other types of niches. I don't think that's the answer. Joel: Yeah. Thinking to the future here, the minute they create a vaccine for this thing, the world and the economy is going to go bonkers. It's going to be such a flood of let's get back to where it is, but are people really going to be out and about? To what degree? How widely available is the vaccine? How are they getting it to people? Shit's going to be bonkers for like six months when they find a vaccine for this thing. And no one knows when that is. But when the flood of hiring happens, none of us really know what that's going to look like. Chad: Well, that's why we have to be ready now. And if you're in talent acquisition and you're not focusing on strategy for when that happens, then you don't deserve to have your job. I mean you shouldn't be in your job. You should be focusing on not just ensuring that your people are taken care of now, but you should have task forces or teams that are put together. You should have vendors working on this shit. Joel: Sure. Chad: This is the time when you need to refocus on blowing up your process and focusing on new experiences so that when everything, again, we were ill prepared for what's happening now. Do not, I repeat, do not be ill prepared when the light switches back on. Joel: Easier said than done for most organizations, but you're exactly right. Which is where automation might be coming into play, which I think we're talking about after a quick word from JobAdX. JobAdX: Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people, and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection, and reducing candidate drop-off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team? Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@J-O-B-A-D-X.com. Attract, engage, employ, with JobAdX. Chad: This is what I'd like to call the Jeff Bezos segment because his mouth is just watering thinking about robots. Joel: You can bet there are a whole lot of boardrooms talking about how do we restart with automation, robotics, et cetera. It's no shock that we have a whole segment now of sort of robots and how they're infiltrating our world and will continue to do so. Chad: Yes. The first story out of Crunchbase is Covariant. They just landed 40 million in Series B. They have a total of about 62 million. And quote from Crunchbase, within all industries, companies are under pressure to deliver good efficiencies, fast and reliable and especially amid the COVID-19 pandemic in a way that keeps workers safe. Covariant co-founder and CEO, Peter Chen said, "Automation is the key to meeting that challenge." I really feel like we're going to see the Jeff Bezos's, we're going to see other organizations that are going to say, "Hey, we have to get back to work. We can't do that with human beings in these types of positions. We really need to start putting money into automation." Joel: Yeah. When he says keep workers safe, he means keep workers unemployed. I think that's a big difference in what he's trying to say there. But what's cool about this company I guess and a little bit scary is they're basically teaching robots to be self aware or at least that's the goal. This is getting into like fucking Terminator Skynet kind of shit at this company. And now they have 40 million more dollars to make that happen, so congratulations. Chad: I mean, it's kind of the premise between machine learning and then getting into deep learning, right? They started out in warehouses and they're looking to expand the technology into a bunch of different areas. And I think that this is going to be a market where they see where problems are happening. There are essential workers who are getting sick, like the meat packing industry for goodness sakes. There are people dying left and right in some of those packing facilities and you have to think of the food. You have a bunch of sick people that are there that shouldn't be there in the first place because they should be taken care of, but they're also handling food. How do you fix that? Well, you put in robots. Joel: They have a presidential decree that they have to stay open, I tell you. Chad: Yeah, what a fucking idiot. Joel: Oh, that's good stuff. By the way, did you see the Boston Dynamics? They have that robot that looks like a dog, it's new and improved now, I just saw this story today or yesterday. I mean it runs super fast. It jumps super high. I mean it's scary as shit. It walks upstairs. It's like a slinky now. I mean this thing is ridiculous. When you think about delivering packages, I think we thought a lot about it being sort of this wheeled little tank thing that brings packages. I could see this dog like Boston robotics thing run around neighborhoods delivering packages to people. Chad: Watch the Black Mirror series where they have those robot dogs and it's kind of scary. Joel: Oh, really? Do they deliver packages. Chad: If dead bodies are packages, yes. One thing that won't deliver dead bodies though is 10 guy. Joel: 10 guy. Chad: There was this article on mynewsdesk.com. Swedish municipality performs corona safe robot recruitments, and this is in the healthcare space. This is interesting. Joel: They have a whole new selling angle to go into really any company that has workers in close proximity to each other or really anyone that wants to provide a safe virus free interview environment. If this doesn't make robotic interviewing happen, nothing will. Because this is such a shot in the arm to give them a boost, this company. Chad: And we've talked about this before, just even before the virus, it just makes good fucking sense. You could have literally a team of 10 guy robots that are sitting in rooms and boom, the people who have to come in where the healthcare workers doesn't matter, if it's one of those where they are doing typically the onsite interviews, boom, right into a room with 10 guy. We always hear about people saying, "Yeah, well, it seems so inhuman." You know what I don't like? I don't like fucking interviews. And that's being a hiring manager. You know what I don't like as a job seeker? I don't like fucking interviews, because you feel like, one, you're judging somebody on one side or you're being judged. You have this thing and it's like, "Oh, this is kind of cool." I mean there's this cool factor that you just can't get beyond. Joel: They now have an embarrassing free way to go to the buyers and say, "We need to do this because it keeps our current workplace safe and it keeps people coming in safe. And that's a reason to at least try this thing." Chad: And it just made sense before all of this shit. Joel: Huge for 10 guy. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while canvas bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: Oh, can't wait to get back in the office, not so much. Joel: It's been kind of a bummer episode. I thought I was going to be a little livelier, but yeah, it's been kind of a downer. Except for 10 guy, the rise of 10 guy baby, here we come. Chad: The rise of 10 guy. Joel: Story on the Wall Street Journal this week talking about, welcome back to the office, your every move is being watched. And for a long time workers have been watched by cameras. They have to key card into every door. Good heavens, we've talked about microchips going into workers voluntarily. Chad: Haptic bracelets. Joel: Yeah, haptic bracelets. And now Ford is testing, the wristband buzzes if you're within six feet of somebody. This according to the story is the world of work as we know it going forward. They talk about infrared cameras, taking your temperature, the temperature of everyone in the office, dictating through technology who's hot before they even come in the office. Distancing from people, who has the dirty keyboard, cleaning facilities from viruses and whatever during the work day. We're going to be watched to a level that I think even Orwell would have been shocked by as he wrote 1984. Chad: Yeah. This is Enemy of the State shit. I think I've said this on several podcasts. If you haven't watched it yet, go look for the movie. It's got Will Smith in it, Enemy of the State. CCTVs, listening devices. You have a listening device with you all the time, it's called your mobile phone. Not to mention like Fitbits, the Apple watch. I mean, we have all these wearables, we have all these electronics that are with us. But then think about it as going back into a building possibly, that they enhance. That overall is interesting. One thing that I would like to see is, remember the cleaning robot that we talked about a few episodes ago that they're using in hospitals. I think for that organization the sky's the limit. Every company like Amazon, you have about 50 of those in your fucking warehouse, just running the entire time, UVing the shit out of stuff, on airplanes, those types of things. That's good technology. This is more of the James Bond, we're going to watch you every single second of the day technology. Joel: Yeah. If you come in for a meeting, we're taking your temp, we're looking at your infrared shit. You can't come in because you're viewed as a risk for coming in. Chad: Sentiment analysis on Slack. Joel: Yeah. That's been going on for a little bit as well. What's interesting to me is we always take these sort of historic disasters and we use it for a reason to move forward a technology normally would not be able to progress, right? When 9/11 happened, cameras everywhere, surveillance everywhere, that went on to hyper drive. When in normal times people would have freaked the fuck out. Chad: And we called it the Patriot Act. Joel: Yeah, the Patriot Act and Terrorism. And so this is like a new reason to make it okay because we're making our employees safe and we're ... but are there devious activities that could go on? Sure. This a little bit of a rant, you can cut it out in editing if you want, but I think it's interesting to look at, historically huge things happen and then change happens and it's usually positive change. Like World War I happened, we had Women's suffrage, right? World war II happened, we had the civil rights movement. I'm really curious to see if this healthcare crisis generates a more universal healthcare system in the US. It'll take a long time, but I'm just sort of thinking loud like, if there's one change that would be really I think beneficial to this country and this world is more, at least if not universal healthcare, more money to the CDC, more money to WHO and other organizations that help keep us safe on a global level and on a national level. And with that, we out. Chad: We out. Chester: Thank you for listening to podcast with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out. #Microsoft #iCIMS #Careerbuilder #Monster #niche #jobboards #Robots #Tengai

As the world begins to open up from corona, it's refreshing to see companies in our space act like nothing ever happened like - Jobvite and iCIMS are on the attack - Indeed Bro-culture issues - Modern Hire shaky relationship rumors - UberWorks dives into the Dead Pool and it's time to celebrate the number of female CEOs in the F500? No! We cover all this, as well as a new round of investment and acquisitions in our space. Enjoy and show sponsors Jobvite, Sovren, and JobAdx some much-needed love ... as long as it's from 6-feet away, that is. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Jim Stroud: Jim Stroud here, and you are listening to my favorite podcast. I listen to it every day, it's amazing, it's wonderful, it's ... Okay. Help me out. Who are you guys again? Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Boom shakalaka. 2.4 million claimed unemployment in the US last week, bringing the nine week total to 38.6 million people. Oh, and the Indi-500 is postponed. So how's your day going? Welcome to The Chad and Cheese Podcast boys and girls, I'm your co-host Joel, someone mix me a quarantini, Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad, I already have a bourbon, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, iCIMS and Jobvite say, "Pandemic? What pandemic?" Grocery store, Kroger waffles and rape allegations at Indeed. Rumor has it, Memorial Day is coming soon, but I'm not even sure what month it is. Take a listen to one of our beloved sponsors while I go grab my Franklin Covey day planner and figure it all out. Jobvite: Getting the right people to apply for the right jobs at the right time has always been a challenge. And now with an influx of candidates and increased workload, recruiters have to work smarter to provide a memorable candidate experience. Make moments matter with Jobvite, a comprehensive talent acquisition suite, built for the marketing inspired approach to recruiting, so that talent teams can more intelligently attract, engage and retain top talent. Combining the power of AI and the human touch. Jobvite, recruit with purpose, hire with confidence. Chad: Are you feeling better? We had NASCAR and golf last weekend, which means sports is coming back. Not the two sports that I really get excited about, but getting the toe in the water, sports is coming back. And as we talked about before, would football make it back this year? Well, NASCAR ran in a track in an empty stadium. I think we'll see the same thing with the NFL. Joel: Yeah. It sounded like California is just going to flip the switch and say, "Sports with no fans," and just say, "Fuck it." So, fingers crossed. But it does look like college sports will be much less easy to come by next season. Chad: Yeah, possibly. Joel: Possibly. And this week is the Tiger Woods, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady Lefty Series, isn't it? Or did I miss that already? Chad: I'm excited to watch this just because it's going to be so funny. And I think Peyton, he's just fucking hilarious. The dude is smart. He's hilarious. And we know that like the the on-mic times, they're going to be classic. This is going to be classic. Joel: Yeah. Rumor has it, they're redoing some sort of Caddyshack scene or moment. So yeah, Peyton as Bill Murray. Who knows. Who knows. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Or Bill Murray could show up, for all we know. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Sure, he loves golf. Chad: Bill Murray didn't show up to the COVID graduation that happened last weekend. Did you see that last Saturday? Joel: I did. And this was the Obama speech, right? Chad: Yeah. LeBron James actually hosted Jonas Brothers, all these names, a lot of them I didn't know because I'm not a teenager, I don't listen to that shit. But overall, at the end of this, trying to make the best out of lemons, making lemonade out of lemons, it was pretty cool. To see president Obama actually give that commencement speech is kind of a kick in the nuts to Trump and, we would have never had Obama even via video, do that file for our graduation. So yeah, pretty cool. Joel: Yeah. Just make sure there's either a whisky or some vodka in that lemonade that you're making over there. Chad: Always. Joel: Yeah. It's interesting to see Obama take digs at a sitting president. That's pretty rare, I don't think I've, or we have ever seen that in our lifetime. But it's maybe well-deserved. Chad: Have we ever seen what we've been through in the last three plus years. Joel: Good point. Good point. Good point. My bad. Chad: All right. Let's do some shout outs. My first shout out, you're going to remember this kid, you love him. His name is [Luke Abral 00:04:43.23]. He has videos on YouTube called Luke's Views. He's an 11 year old who we met in Banff, Canada at the cult gathering. And he did a Yeti product review. Now, if you guys remember when we were in Banff, we were on stage with Bill Neff from Yeti SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: ... Wwho is like one of the best dudes ever. Well, he met up with Luke and Luke said, "Hey, I'd like to do some Yeti reviews," because what Luke does is he does reviews for camping from a kid's view, not from an adult's view, but from a kid's view. And Bill sent him a load of Yeti camping gear. Joel: Nice. Nice. Nice. I'm still waiting on my hat, but ... Yeah, that's good Luke. That's good Luke. Chad: Yeah. Joel: By the way, we don't have time, but one day we should do your Yeti cooler story. Not time on this one. Not time on this one. Shout out to Joe Rogan. If you're a podcast aficionado, and I know you are, if you're listening to our podcast, you're probably aware that podcaster, comedian and all around, good guy I guess, Joe Rogan, sold the podcast for $100 million to Spotify in a Howard Stern kind of moved to Sirius XM. Shout out to him, man, he's really rich, and hopefully, some of us little, bottom pit of podcasters can get a little piece of what you got at some point. Chad: Shit, he had a stage already. He was a stand up comedian, the fear factor guy. So he had these things rolling for him already. So he had a leg up. Good for him and hopefully someday, we might be able to sell for, I don't know, a 10th of that. Joel: Yeah. He's been podcasting for a long time. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I didn't realize 2009 was the first Joe Rogan Experience Podcast. Chad: Not an overnight thing. Joel: In a world where music is the commodity, buying up content through podcasting is a smart move. Juries out of whether or not Sirius XM has been better because of Stern, but, Spotify is a really popular service. But if you want to get people from not going over to Apple Music or any of the other competitors, you've got to have some unique content and buying a podcast, well, certainly, certainly does that. Chad: Agreed. Agreed. Big shout out to Mike Stirfage, Stirfige. Joel: Stiffy. Chad: Stiffy. Yeah, there you go. CEO over at [Aaron 00:07:14.28], he just started listening to the show. Where have you been Mike? Jeez. But anyway, he said after listening to the show, he's an instant fan. Big fabulous. Big shout out to Jeff Smith over at SupportingLines, and Mike Warner, new addition to the Joveo staff. Joel: Very nice. Very nice. I'm going to machine gun a few rumors, things that we've seen online this week or heard. I heard a rumor, Phenom People is developing some sort of a one stop shop to integrate with multiple platforms, like ATS's and CRM's. Chad: It's called an API. Joel: Yeah. Well, no one's done it. And how do you cost effectively do that? I don't know. I don't know. We'll see what happens. It's kind of like the HRNX platform for background check companies or something. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So that's in the works. I'm hearing AllyO rumors that they are desperately hoping to sell the company at some point soon, but they're not getting a whole lot of interest to date. Chad: Big shout out to the job board doctor. Big shout out to him for schooling you on the state of niche job boards. Joel: Please. Chad: Still very anecdotal, right? We don't have real numbers on this shit, but Jeff pays close attention to the rise and fall of job boards as closely as you pay attention to blow up dolls on the clearance rack. So I know he knows what he's talking about. Joel: Oh, I got a story, and it's totally unrelated. Chad: Okay. Joel: And I don't know anything about it except the headline. But a soccer team was fined because they had sex dolls in the stands, because they couldn't have people for coronavirus. They were fined for sex dolls in the audience. Yeah, I just read the headline on that one. Anyway, shout out to our buddy, Kenny Hagar (Kyle), formerly of Hireology, now at Appcast. He loved the iCIMS interview, with their CEO. And if you haven't listened to that one, please do. He was particularly entertained by the CEO's reaction when you brought up acquisition to Microsoft. He thought his reaction was very unCEO-like. So if you haven't listened to that, make sure you go check that out. Chad: Yeah. The Steve Lucas interview was a pretty legit conversation. We didn't ask easy questions, there might've been a few in there, but we also hit him between the eyes a couple of times. And you got to dig that man. Susan Vitale, who was on as well, she knows how we do business. We've known her for years and she still brought her new CEO along. That was really cool. We had a great conversation and pretty transparent. Joel: Yup. Yup. Shout out to Jobiak. If you haven't listened to our Voices series, with Big Cat, their CEO, I encourage you to do that. And shout out to them for knowing how to fucking promote a podcast, they're doing it right. So, companies take note of how Jobiak does work. Chad: They understand SEO and that kind of shit as well. So yeah, it just makes sense. So you got content, you want content, we keep saying content is king, well, fucking use it. Big shout out to Death Match Grand Champion, XOR. Aida Fazylova Joel: Aida. Chad: ... She win, she takes home the Chain of Champions. Joel: Riding on a grizzly bear, chain smoking and doing shots of vodka, like a true Russian. Chad: That's all she needed to do to win. A chatbot, that was for Joel, we call it conversational AI these days. It was legit, so we appreciate everybody who was a part of it. Definitely TAtech for having us on their virtual stage once again. But I definitely got to say, Bradley Clark, Aida, Adam Chambers, our Irish-Mexican SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: ... They are probably the best Death Match contestants ever. And Joveo for creating more prepromotion stuff, the Zoom backgrounds, those types of things. Good job guys. Joel: All contestants, dope. But my money still belongs with the Scotsman who wore a kilt and the Swede who wore a Viking costume to Death Match. That's going to be hard to top. That's going to be hard to top. Chad: Very good point. Joel: And by the way, it's going to be a chatbot forever, conversational AI is not catching on. And in light of that, shout out to Paradox who was a repeat winner of the Stevie's, some sort of an awards thing that goes out, I've never heard of, but they won it anyway, so shout out to them. Chad: Now Joel, you can get off your knees and we can do topics. Joel: Shout out to Indi first, top five city to start your career, as was many other Midwest cities. So yeah, sure. Let's get to topics. Chad: Jobvite partnership with Ultimate Software. This doesn't seem Joel: Pandemic. What pandemic? Chad: ... To be that big of a deal, unless you look a little bit harder. Because these integrations and partnerships, every core platform should be doing them, period. Right? But let's face it, Ultimate Software needs an ATS because there's a shit, enter Jobvite. Right? So, do you think that, I'm reading a little bit too much into this, that there could be acquisition possibilities? Or is it just your normal, let's have a press release out for a partnership? Joel: Oh, I think acquisition possibilities for sure. I think in a world where data has incredible value, what this integration, as far as I understood it, and the news just came out this morning, but they're basically helping companies understand the data between the recruitment process to the onboarding and beyond, which has incredible value. And yes, it integrates very nicely with Ultimate Software as a whole who's consolidating, as they were anyway before Jobvite. So yeah, I think acquisition is definitely on the table. We've talked about a Microsoft iCIMS acquisition in the future, something like this would not surprise me either. And as data gets more valuable and automation, which Jobvite is getting very good at, becomes more valuable. And that's certainly something that we could see in the near future. Chad: Yeah. And if you see bigger organizations like the Microsofts of the world, start to use this data, go figure, LinkedIn data, now applicant tracking system data. You anonymize it. Yes. Then they have the whole wide world in their fucking hands. And if you think of it from the standpoint of sales data, that's huge, right? Yes. For talent acquisition, for retention, for all of those things. But you can take it beyond that, once you have the data. And I guarantee you it's exactly what the Microsoft's of the world are thinking. Not to mention, iCIMS buying an organization like opening.io who Joel: Death Match winner, i.e. Chad: That's right. Death Match winner. ... Who grinds that data. They had about $700,000 US, in funding. They've been working very closely, opening.io has, with Microsoft. Which I think started in Dublin, the Dublin Microsoft office, and grew from there. But this to me, is a big grand slam for iCIMS. What do you think? Joel: Yeah. And it's an even bigger win for opening.io, who can buy a lot more Guinness with whatever they got from iCIMS. Ireland's crushing it dude. I don't know what's going on, Adam Chambers, Andrew ... Anyway, again, it goes back to data, right? These companies are doing a great job of buying companies that add feature sets to their business, that make them more valuable. And in a pandemic environment, these acquisitions are going to be much more amenable to companies that have money. Last week we talked about our buddies at Paradox getting 40 million and saying in the press release that they're going to use some of that money to actually buy companies, which is a pretty rare thing to put in a press release on getting investment dollars. So companies are on sale, companies with money are going to be buying. I think what is odd, last year we were talking about Jobvite and iCIMS moving into like a tier-2 below the big guys in the ATS world, and staking a claim as a platform. How the worm has turned quickly and that these guys are now acquisition possibilities for even bigger fish, I don't think I saw that coming. I'm not sure about you. Chad: I thought the possibility was there, that's for sure. But the thing is that we are not used to these types of companies playing offense, right? We're used to them doing a half-ways decent job at best, and then looking to get acquired. These guys are not doing that. They are going out, they're playing off offense. They're doing business the right way. Joel: We will see where that ends. And we'll also see where allegations at Indeed ends, here at some point. Sadly, we had rape allegations this week come out, reported by Vice, which was interesting topic for them, they usually cover like dictators in Africa and prostitution in Asia, but they were covering an Indeed allegation of rape at the company. A little back story on this, 2015, new sales rep, female comes on board. There's some training, followed by what's pretty common, drinks and celebration. A male counterpart who was a manager at the time, I don't think he was her direct manager, but still someone in management. Chad: It doesn't matter. Joel: No it doesn't. I'm just stating some of the facts of what we know at the point from the story. Chad: Okay. Joel: The dude started kissing her in an elevator, followed her to her room. According to allegation, she said, "I'm good," when he asked if he could come in. He came in anyway, had sex with her, even though she responded with, "I'm so drunk," and asked him to stop. He got done, threw away a condom and walked out of the room. And she filed a lawsuit, here recently reported by Vice, go check out vice.com if you want to learn more about that. It is horrifically similar to what we talked about, at CareerBuilder last year, in terms of a similar case, where sales guys get a little too drunk and stupid and things like this shit happen. And it's very unfortunate. Additionally, the allegations talk about Indeed having a culture where the women who sleep with upper level management are the ones who get promoted. Certainly if those allegations are true, that's an incredibly unfortunate predicament and incredibly unhealthy and dangerous, to say the least. Chad: Yeah. This is leadership and management, they have to get on this. When you have that "bro culture", it's toxic. It really is. And it doesn't matter if they're high performers or not, right? It doesn't matter if they're making the cash or not. You have to ensure that the culture doesn't turn into something like a bro culture. Now that COVID's happening, maybe we start doing a lot of this shit online. Who knows. It is a hell of a lot less cost and risk. Joel: Yeah. There will certainly be less environments like this where people get drunk and in close proximity to each other. I found it interesting as well that the accuser is still an employee at Indeed. Usually these sorts of allegations and lawsuits come out after someone leaves. I can imagine that's really weird for her to have these come out and still be an employee. And she's also alleging that Indeed HR was not very proactive, and really dismissive when she reported this to them. So if the allegations are true, Indeed really has some work to do to get its house in order. Chad: Also heard some rumblings at Modern Hire, that the two cultures between Montage and Shaker International are not melding, and that we're starting to see individuals from Montage eject. So, not sure what the culture issues are, but I've had a few people actually send some rumblings, i.e., rumors, my way, saying, "There are some culture problems between those two organizations" And you'll remember, probably a little over a year ago, Shaker International and Montage merged to create Modern Hire. I remember when we were talking to Douglas Atkin about the culture at Airbnb and when they were actually going to look to acquire organizations, they turned a few of them down just purely on culture. And this could be an instance where that might've been a good idea. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Shaker, not to be confused with Shaker Recruitment Marketing, sponsor of The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Yeah. Modern Hire is a stupid name, just go back to Montage. Shaker's like, whatever, but Montage was a good name, they should have kept that. Chad: Modern Hire, is it modernhire.com? Those are two words you can spell, they're easy. So I don't hate it. Sovren: Sovren parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: It was nice to talk to Robert this week, wasn't it? Sovren CEO. Chad: It's always nice to talk to Robert, the dude is incredibly smart. And this week we talked to him about work from home, which they have been doing exclusively since 2006. So all of these companies that are thinking about it now, and they haven't hit the potholes yet, he was able to talk through some of those things. And that was really cool to get him on. Joel: Yup. Some incredibly good tips, if you're a new to the work from home thing, listen now. Chad: Everybody should be excited about this next story. Let me go through this real quick. Let me do this. Let me do this. Joel: I'm so excited. Chad: I'm so excited. The number of female CEOs in the Fortune 500 hits an all time record. Now, that's the actual title in Fortune Magazine. Now get ready, drum roll please. We have 500 CEOs and guess how many are females? Joel: 250. Chad: 37 is the new record. Break out the champagne baby. No, let's not do that. So 7.4% of CEOs in the Fortune 500 are female. Joel: Yeah. Chad: We're talking about setting new records. 8.1% of that 7.4% are women of color. Or, here's a better number for you, 0.6% overall of the Fortune 500 CEOs are women of color. Thanks to Adam Gadomski for checking my math on that one. Joel: You do math good, Chad. Chad: But my God, dude, we're talking about hits all time records, and we have shitty ass numbers like this. This is nothing to be proud of. This is nothing to write about. This is something that we should be focusing on and having an article that focuses on why we only have 7.4% of the fortune 500 are female CEOs. Why the fuck aren't we talking about that? No, we're going to talk about all time records. Are you fucking kidding me? Joel: Yeah. I love that you took a celebratory article about the rise of women and turned it into a total downer. But you're right. Now, devil's advocate, the number was two back in 1998, which wasn't that long ago. So we are at least trending in the right direction. Let's say, if we do the math on that, what? It will take another 25, 30 years to get to a hundred? Chad: Yeah. Exactly. And going deeper into this, there are four, yes, four men of color serving as CEOs in the Fortune 500. So yes, they want to put this big thing out. There were only two, so many years ago. Fuck that. I don't want to hear that bullshit. We're talking about equality. We're talking about equity. But guess what? That's all we're fucking doing, is talking. We're not actually making those moves. The boards are not making the moves. And we need more solid commitments from companies to get females, and females of color, and men of color into these positions, period. Because they're qualified. You can't say that only white motherfuckers are qualified. You can't say that. Joel: True. True. In terms of solving that, any ideas? The NFL, we have the Rooney Rule, where you're required to interview an African-American for a open head coach job. Should we do something similar in corporate America if companies take federal dollars to any degree or if they're public companies? Chad: Well, yeah. There are definitely many steps. But this is a leadership step that should be taken. And this is not just about the CEO. Yes, we want to be able to demonstrate that we're putting the right people in front of the board or what have you for the hiring process, but overall this is about the entire C-Suite. This is about all of management. And this is also about pay. So as leaders in these organizations, being again, the boards and being in the C-Suite themselves, this is something that will cascade down, and we have to force it. And all of those people saying, "Well, you're just putting quotas on this." Guess what? Fuck you. They've been getting screwed for years. Okay? Women, men of color, they've been getting screwed for years and now you want to talk about quotas? Guess what? Fuck you. This is what we need to do to ensure that equity happens. Joel: Fair enough. Fair enough. And fortunately, we have technologies out there. We talked to Telvista, it was a Death Match participant. And we have a startup this week called Syndio, S-Y-N-D-I-O, interesting, they received 7.5 million in funding for pay equity algorithms and technology. Sounds like a pretty promising idea to me. You? Chad: That's exciting stuff. And it also gives CEOs and companies an out when you're talking about pay transparency. Because no company wants to talk about pay transparency, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, now Syndio, can go and say, guess what? You're getting all this pressure for pay transparency, you don't have to do that with our system. Just put everything into our system and it will automatically tell you where the inequities are. Right? You can report against it. But here's the key. You don't have to worry about pay transparency. Nobody needs to know. Right? So I think it's smart, but I also think it plays against what we need in this country, which is pay transparency. Joel: And someone who didn't like parent transparency this past week was Kroger, who had one of their collections letters for Hero Pay leak out to the internet. I found this crazy, and how anyone let this fall through the cracks is unbelievable. So Kroger was like many others, with essential workers in the COVID pandemic crisis, giving Hero Pay. I don't know, did they overpay people? Or did they give pay an extra couple of weeks? Well, aside from that, they sent out collection letters to their employees saying how much they owed back to the company. Someone obviously, shared this on social media. The backlash was crazy. And Kroger, to their credit waffled, and given up on trying to collect the money and have just given it away without trying to collect it. But what a boneheaded PR move at Kroger? Chad: The big question to me, and let's break this down, why is Kroger, Amazon, and other companies taking away this extra pay, when they have been monopolizing the fuck out of this? Sales for fourth quarter ended on February 1st for Kroger, at least the reporting did, came in at nearly $29 billion. Plus, remember that money does no good to the economy when it's not being spent. And how can you get that money into the economy and driving it? Well, you pay fucking people. That's what you do. Not to mention, these individuals have proven they are vital, when it comes to the supply chain. It just took a crisis to show all of the motherfuckers out there who look down their noses, at truck drivers, shelf stockers, cash register operators, and all the other vital positions we walk by without saying thank you every day. Say thanks. Pay those fucking people. They deserve it. So not only did they deserve the pay in the first place, but you shouldn't have taken that shit back anyway. Joel: Oh, for sure. For sure. And for those who haven't seen the letter, let me just summarize it real quick. So it's actually from the Kroger payroll department, there's no name on it. And the letter says, "As you may be aware, you were overpaid by emergency pay in the gross amount of X," in this case it was $461.60. And then they're requested to make either one payment of $461.60, three payments of $153.87 or five payments of $92.32, which I assume would come out of your paycheck, and then they select how they want to pay back the money. Signed with love, Kroger payroll, blah, blah, blah. That's just really bad. Chad: Yeah. Well, and again, with all the fucking profits that Kroger is seeing right now, they can afford to Institute this pay increase, as an increase. Not as a momentary increase. Right? Joel: Every one of these jobs should be getting hazard pay. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Not even from a hazard pay standpoint, they have proven that they are a vital cog in our economy. Period. The crisis just demonstrated that, right? That money that you up to them for their "hero pay", carry it forward, carry on. There you go. Joel: And who needs Jimmy Hoffa when you have Twitter to mobilize against the word for us. Chad: Yeah. Apparently, we need it badly. If you're watching Netflix, I think it's called the American Factory or something like that. Check it out, it is ... This is one of the reasons why we need unions. That's for damn sure. Because Twitter can't do it all. JobAdX: Nope. Not for me. All these jobs look the same. Urgh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just half-heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop-off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team? Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com. That's, joinus@J-O-B-A-DX.com. Attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Chad: Let's jump right into the dead pool real quick, because I want to make sure we hit this one. Joel: Oh, it's warm in the dead pool these days. Chad: Oh, it's warm baby. Yeah. Uber Works closes. And from my understanding from people who were on the inside, it was a fucking mess. So, this was a platform that Uber was going to provide staffing, and that's how Uber was going to make their money off of the actual software. And they wouldn't even get back with staffing, they had no fucking clue what they were doing, dude. Joel: Yeah. These companies are struggling to be profitable anyway. I know we talked to ... Who was it? Last year, from Lyft. Chad: Mason. Joel: Mason Wong. Chad: Yup. Joel: And he talked pretty candidly about the challenges that they have. Aside from the airlines, the restaurants and some other businesses, ride sharing is right there in terms of the hardest hit during this pandemic. So it was no shocker, that in the midst of layoffs at Uber, that they would now start shedding some of these businesses that weren't profitable and really didn't make sense. It felt like a tag on, or attack on anyway, to try to make some money when things were good, it makes a lot of sense that they dropped it when things were bad. So in a statement by the company, they said, "Given the dramatic impact of the pandemic and the unpredictable nature of any eventual recovery, we are concentrating our efforts on our core mobility and delivery platforms and resizing our company to match the realities of our business." Obviously Uber Works had to go. Chad: Yeah. At the end of the day, it was shit, no matter what. SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: It's easy how we're seeing some companies, and I'm not saying that all companies are doing this, but some companies are definitely blaming COVID for their shit sucking. And it just sucked in the first place, it was not where they should have gone. Joel: They're lucky that they have variability in their costs and they can fire people and just wait for things to get better and not pay drivers because they're not driving anywhere. But, it's not a good business to be in right now. Chad: And overall economics of it, obviously it's not proving out either. But what is proving out, is that apparently, as we talk about this whole COVID hitting, especially SMBs, incredibly hard, Snagajob snags $8 million and launch a new rebound campaign. Joel: Yup. And hired a new chief revenue officer, who was one of the main guys from TripAdvisor. Yeah. Snag is nicely positioned to, when things improve, and if you assume things will come back to life at some point, restaurants will open, hourly jobs will come back. Snag has gotten an investment and made some hires and created a platform that they hope will get them back on track because they were sort of off-track, to say the least, in the past year. They're a good brand still, people know who they are, particularly in their core competency around service jobs and hourly jobs. When things come back, they should be in a pretty good position, and this helps a lot. Chad: And it seems like they're prepping for that. Again, the rebound, your reopen plan starts here. Get your team back in place with Snagajob. It looks like a lot of RPA. Virtual hiring, complete end to end solution with sourcing, screening, scheduling, interviewing, which could be incredibly fast. Video interviews, only pay for scheduled interviews. It's pretty interesting. Performance hiring statistics, being able to dip into your talent pools, and we're talking about alumni, people who used to work for you, so people who you might've laid off, but you have that core pool ready to be able to reach back into. It's pretty interesting. Joel: Yup. Agreed. Agreed. And we also had another, video/remote/work from home acquisition. Chad: Cammio. Joel: Cammio acquired by StepStone, who listeners will know, acquired Appcast, last year, a German company. Video is going to be hot. And I think this won't be the last video company to be acquired, talking to you Vervoe. We'll see what happens in the future, but the world is good for video. And the world was pretty bad for video. Just six months to a year ago we were talking about privacy concerns with HireVue, facial recognition issues, but now, video's the hot chick on the block. Good for them. Chad: Yeah. Digital job interviews, automated video interviews, video formats for motivation letters, video pitches and video meetings. I mean, they're really just trying to be the video platform. You mentioned Vervoe, I see those guys as something even larger. Which is really cool, that we're seeing Cammio is coming out of the Europe, Vervoe is coming out of Australia. We're seeing all these really cool pieces of tech all over the world, not just here in the US, so that's cool. StepStone, obviously have broadened up, being more than just German or European company and buying Appcast, this video technology, who knows what they could do with it. Joel: Yeah. And more sort of video, work from home, don't come in our office, I don't want to touch you technologies. Tradify raised 12 million in series B funding this week as well. I didn't know much about them, but they're a visual based personality assessment platform. So again, visual based assessment, don't come in the office, hiring tool. It's getting more money and they won't be the last. Chad: So this is the assessment tool that is integrated into hourly. Alexander Mann Solutions new platform that's focused on hourly workers. I would assume, I could be wrong, but I would assume that they might've got a bump to get this cash through that killer integration and partnership with a huge organization like AMS. SFX: Hell yeah. Joel: Good for them. And with that, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to podcast with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out. #iCIMS #Jobvite #ATS #HCM #UltimateSoftware #Openingio #XORai #ModernHire #Montage #UberWorks #Cammino #StepStone #Traitify #Snag

Doing the dirty work isn't easy, but industry education and being a change agent is a bitch. The boys continue their interview with Venkat Janapareddy, CEO of Jobiak, and talk: - Google for jobs PPC? - Indeed - "the new Monster" - Ditch the schema - The Struggle is Real! - The Domain Matters - DUH! Brought to you by Chad and Cheese - HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Subscribe at chadcheese.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions' clients are changing the lives of people with disabilities, including veterans with service related disabilities. Morgan: Voices, we hear them every day. Some voices like mine are smooth and confident. While on the other hand, The Chad and Cheese Podcast is like listening to a Nickelback album, you'd rather stab yourself in the ears with an ice pick. Anyway, y'all now listening to Voices, a podcast series from Chad and Cheese that features the most important and influential voices within the recruitment industry. Try not to fuck it up boys. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Welcome back. We're picking the conversation up with entrepreneur and CEO of Jobiak, Venkat Janapareddy. Joel: How does Google approach pay-per-click in Google for Jobs? And when? Venkat: That's the million dollar question. That's been one of the toughest challenges, being dependent on Google for Jobs. They did a good job communicating in terms of API, but in terms of roadmap, it's a black box. It's free right now, anyone can publish jobs on Google for Jobs, but I'm pretty sure the pay-per-click is coming. I know they're worried about employer adoption. They're not happy with the ... If you look at Google for jobs right now, still almost 75% of the jobs are from job boards, especially LinkedIn, Glassdoor, ZipRecruiter run off of it. So they want employer adoption before they start charging, they have to do something about this so schema and SEO, probably even get it off schema, partner with companies like us, pretty much scrap the job and apply our tag and get every single job. I think they're trying to figure this out right, based on what we know. But Facebook and Indeed are looking for ways ... The reason they're not as successful as they are right now, it's been two and a half years, both of them came up with jobs products, but right now, many, many jobs from career centers are missing on Google because of the schema requirement. Facebook is even more complex, they have this complex API integration. I'm pretty sure, I can't get into the details, but both of them are looking for ways, how do we get the jobs? Indeed used to do. Indeed used to just go to career centers and get every single job. And if Facebook and Google does that, that's the product by the way, we are releasing next month. We are going to scrape all jobs from every career center, and we are going to become like Sabre in travel. If you look at Sabre, I don't know if you guys know, every ... Expedia, Travelocity, none of these guys have any relationship with airlines, they just talk to Sabre, Sabre is selling the data. And that's one thing that we are going to become. We are releasing this product in May, and we are going to have every job in the world that's out there in real time, and we are going to start providing this job data to Google, Facebook, even companies like Indeed. So now you'll have all three big players having every single job, and as a result, now job seekers, right now, again, even though this whole candidate experience is bad, the minute they have every single job on Facebook and Google, the traffic will go up. Then they can introduce this all pay-per-click model, they can sponsor jobs, they can make billions of dollars. And I think this so Sabre model, our technology, which we built for Google for Jobs, we basically did the same thing, scrape and apply, labeling and generate the data. So we are very excited, we are already talking to some of these big players, and that's going to change the landscape. Right now, Indeed is still the king, Facebook and Google are playing the catch up game, but once the level field is the same in terms of number of jobs, it's going to change the whole game. Chad: Well, won't Indeed just try to build that just as fast as you do? I just, I don't see Indeed, unless they acquire you because you've got that technology, but I just don't see Indeed taking jobs from anybody or losing that control because they are in a controlled environment right now. I can't see them leaving that controlled environment. Can you? Venkat: Yeah. Indeed is like, you guys know Monster Worldwide, Indeed is like 20 years back Monster Worldwide. Everyone goes to Indeed, the revenues are going up. The big players are catching up the game, because both Facebook and Google made a big mistake of putting all this stupid schema requirements, instead of just going to career sites and getting the jobs. But once they do, I think Indeed is going to have major problem, I have a feeling they'll become like Monster Worldwide, there'll be the downfall. Because search traffic, everything starts on Google, mobile traffic, significant traffic is happening on Facebook, both these guys are damn good at targeting candidates, what they don't have right now is jobs. Once they have these jobs, that's not from job boards, once they have jobs from career sites, then they are at the same level field as Indeed and as I said, it will become like Monster, didn't have answers to it and they went South, and they're in a bad shape today, and that could happen to Indeed Chad: Shouldn't companies just ... Seriously, they can't do this themselves. They can't. History has demonstrated they don't have the technical chops and/or resources to do it, so therefore, they should be investing in an RMP or a vendor to be able to demonstrate to Google that they have this information. Really get up into that top six by making sure that they have a vendor or a partner who can help them design for Google for Jobs. Venkat: Absolutely. I think again, as it said, Google is not really doing a great job in terms of advertising this all Google for Jobs product. But once players like us, it's just not Jobiak, I'm pretty sure there's going to be a lot more startups and other companies that are going to come up with what we do, but once they start seeing traffic from Google, they will start investing. Right now the biggest problem they have is, okay, let's go with the schema. And then they've given up on that. That's the reason we're focusing a lot with partnerships because we go to, say an RMP and they put in this technology for all the clients, they'll see tremendous traffic, and that's when they'll value Google for Jobs. And that's going to happen very, very soon. It's going to change in the next six to 12 months. Google for Jobs is going to pick up the steam. I think they spent last two years just going live, country by country. Now that they are live, I'm hoping they'll come up with something, especially getting rid of the schema, making that optional. I think that will revolutionize, especially Google for Jobs platform. This is the beginning of Google for Jobs. I think it's going to take off, as we work with ATS's and RMP's, they will start seeing the value and more and more, and price will start investing in Google for Jobs. Joel: The number of questions I have just doubled when you dropped that announcement, but I'll try to be brief. So let me understand, you're not becoming a destination site? Venkat: Our goal is work with partners, RMP's and ATS's. Of course, we are continuing to work with enterprise customers right now, where we put in the pixel, we make them top 20, is live. Our goal right now, ATS's and RMP's are struggling with Google for Jobs. They're putting the schema and they're getting no value. Joel: Okay. Got you. So the business model is, you're going to go scrape as many ATS's, RPM's, not job boards, correct? You're going to go right to the source, they still have to set up subdomains for it to be like Deloitte or IBM, et cetera, are you guys going to solve that problem, with scraping? Venkat: To answer your question, once, let's say Deloitte, if I have all of their jobs right now, if I somehow make them available to Google, today Deloitte has to go to this all index APA site, there's a lot of technical work. If they don't have to do that, and I go and scrape all of Deloitte jobs, scrap their career site and give it to Google, Google can go have them available, show up on Google for Jobs and go straight from Google to the career site. That's the beginning. Our goal is to sell this to Google and Facebook, first get all the jobs. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So ultimately we're going to see a whole lot more of apply with Jobiak button? Venkat: Not Jobiak, see again, we want apply on career site, the company name. Joel: Right. But you have to have the company set that up for that to happen. Correct? Venkat: No, not if Google already has the data. Let's say there are 100 jobs in deloitte.com, and Google gets this hundred jobs automatically, because the jobs came from deloitte.com, Google automatically puts apply in Deloitte. They don't even know, Jobiak is behind the scenes. We are like a OEM partner. We are going to be working with Google, Google will say, "Hey, give me every company in the United States, every single job, we'll pay you a million dollars a month." Once they have all these jobs from career site, Google now has every single job and the apply button goes straight to the carrier site. Joel: So you're doing a search that Google can't do.? Venkat: We can scrape and figure out what the job is all about. If you give me a URL, magically I can tell you without looking at it, what is the job title? Skills requirements, occupation, everything. That's our machine learning platform. That's what Google doesn't have. That's what Facebook doesn't have. Joel: So your goal is to be the search engine within the search engine? Venkat: Exactly. Chad: Well, and really the goal is to be the career site, the anointed career site by the company. Getting that sub-domain and being the place where, if you go to the homepage, which is what Google does, they go to the homepage, they hit careers or they hit jobs, where does it go? Where does it land? If it lands on the applicant tracking system, well that's "the source of truth". If it lands on Jobiak or an RMP, well then that's the source of truth, correct? Venkat: Yes. Chad: Okay. Venkat: Our goal is to land RMP's or career sites, less on Jobiak. Joel: Have you made these already? Or are you in discussions? Or have you not started anything at this point? Venkat: we are in discussions. I can't get into the details, but yeah. Joel: Okay. So this is not pie in the sky, you're laying a little groundwork for this to happen? Venkat: Yeah. Actually to be very honest, the idea came from them. They gave us this idea, you have the technology, they're trying to compete with Indeed, they want to have the same number of jobs Indeed has, the only company that has this technology, what Indeed has is us. We can go and scrape and apply. So the idea came from them. We've been working on it for the last seven, eight months, hopefully we launch it. And our goal is to sell this data to all these big players and stabilize all these big players in the market have every single job. Chad: Yeah. Who wants to fuck with all of this? Seriously, it's like, let's have Venkat and his team go do that shit, do all the dirty work. Right? And then we'll reap the rewards through the experience and maybe purchase them or maybe somebody else, another vendor, RMP, ATS purchases Jobiak. Either way, it's the dirty work, right? They don't want to do the dirty work, because that's a bitch. Venkat: It is. It is a lot of, lot of dirty work, Chad. It's scraping and putting the machine learning. You're probably wondering why we have Chad: The maintenance behind it. Venkat: ... Yeah. That's why we have 120 people, they work like crazy. The good news is, it's all machine learning, the technology is at work so much now. When I sold my last startup to Monster Worldwide, five years back, most of these technologies were not available. Now with machine learning and deep learning, you can do a lot of things. We are very excited about this new product that we're launching in May. That's going to create a big competition between Facebook, Indeed and Google. We are very, very optimistic and hopefully everything goes well for us. Joel: And now we know why he needs 120 techies. Chad: Yeah. We could definitely dive a little deeper into that. I'm not sure I want to get into those weeds. Outro: Look for more episodes of Voices, this Chad and Cheese Podcast series devoted to stories and opinions of industry leaders. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. For more, visit chadcheese.com.

Sandra Preyale has graced the halls and led HR at Christian Dior, L'Oreal, Coach, LVMH, and Amazon. Why leave a history of big brands and take the Chief People Officer mantle at Aegis Living? Because it's squishy. Squishy provides purpose and goes beyond mere HR, Talent Acquisition, and Brand. Because squishy is REAL. Enjoy this Cult Brand podcast, supported by Smashfly, which was recorded at the base of a mountain in Banff, Canada before the world turned upside down. Enjoy! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. James Elis: James Ellis from, The Talent Cast. You may not be aware of this, but a couple years ago I lost a bet, so now I'm contractually obligated to say nice things about Chad and Cheese. Well, I took that, let's say lemon and turned it into lemonade. I took interviews from Chad and Cheese and turned it into a book, but I added a lot of other people you're going to want to talk to. It's called Talent Chooses You. It is hiring better with employer branding and it is available on Amazon, June 15th, you should go and buy it, bye. SFX: A crummy commercial? Son of a bitch! Chad: I love this woman. Joel: Good. Chad: This is exactly what we talk about all the time. You're not trying to poach talent. You're manufacturing talent. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. What's up gang? We're back in dance, doing that podcast thing. Chad: So hard at the base of a mountain talking to people about podcasting and branding and now talent acquisition. Joel: Yeah. In case you missed it. I am Joel Cheesman. This is the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm joined here with Chad. Hi Chad. Chad: Hello. Joel: And we are honored to have as our guest Sandra Preyale. I [00:01:37] didn't I? Chad: Preyale. Joel: With Aegis Living. Sandra: Networks. Joel: Networks. Sandra: Yeah. That works. Joel: Okay. It's an Irish lass who married a Frenchman. So I'm all messed up. So you're with Aegis Living. Most of our listeners don't know who you are. So give us the elevator pitch on that. And then more importantly, we're going to talk about your lecture or presentation this morning and get into all kinds of talent acquisitions. Sandra: Sure Chad: Just get in it. Sandra: Okay. Chad: Get dirty. Sandra: Aegis Living is a privately owned, founder driven still, senior living company. We're present in the Pacific Northwest, actually in three States today, California and Washington and Nevada. We are really looking to reinvent this space because I don't know about either of you. I don't know if you have parents or grandparents that have ever had the opportunity to go into a senior living company, but you Joel: I live in one now actually. Sandra: ... Well, then it must be pretty sad, because that's what Joel: The meatloaf is fantastic. Sandra: ... And the bingo is probably amazing. Joel: Yes. Chad: The bingo. Joel: Yeah. Sandra: But that's what it is. You go there to die and you play bingo, until you do. And that's the perception that people have. Aegis Living is very different. And we're a company that's growing. We're looking at probably opening another 40 communities in the next five to seven years, which will bring us to 70. Our intention is not to be the biggest, it's to be the very, very best. Joel: Which means how many hires for those facilities of late? Sandra: We'll have to hire probably another three to 4,000 employees. So we currently have two and a half thousand employees that serve two and a half thousand residents. The ratio one-to-one, it's very labor intense. Chad: Oh wow. Yeah. Sandra: And we're in probably the most difficult market to hire for. Chad: Is that normal though, one-to-one ratio? It doesn't seem like it is because most of the Joel: Even Thinker is like five to one. Chad: ... Yeah. Most of the facilities that I've been in, it doesn't seem like there's the as many staff as there are residents. Sandra: Yeah. So, it may be very simply because they just can't hire. And many companies have difficulty hiring and the turnover rate in our space, nobody really talks about it, but it is in the 100's. 100, 120%. We are much, much, much, much lower. And we do everything to keep it low. Chad: Not a lot of poaching, I would assume too, right? Sandra: Yeah. You're in a space where, the starting wage, if you've never done this before, is minimum wage. And so when you're looking to hire and someone who's going to provide incredible care. and to a vulnerable adult. And not only incredible care, but real quality life experience, you have to do a lot of things to make sure that you're bringing that person in, that you're nurturing them and that you're really engaging them, so that you keep them. Because effectively they probably could get more going to Amazon, working in a fulfillment center or driving an Uber or any of the other things that they could be hired into. Joel: So what was your session about today? What did you focus on? Sandra: I focused on what makes us different from a culture perspective. And it's really driven by Dwayne Clark, our founder. And it might sound squishy guides, but we talk about leading through vulnerability, servant leadership. Chad: Okay. Sandra: And our leaders, they are serving our employees, our frontline staff. That's what they do. They are looking to satisfy the legitimate needs of our employees because it's our employees that are doing the real work. Chad: Right. How do they do that though? Because we've heard that from so many companies. We serve our employees, but it's like, okay, I really need the how, I love the why you do it, but what's the how? Sandra: We're constantly reinventing. But we have a mantra and the mantra is equally valid for our employees as it is for our residents, "Know me, protect me, engage me, celebrate me, wow me." And that mantra, is the framework for all of the things we create in terms of engagement, in terms of aspirational people development, in terms of ensuring that we're retaining people over time. And so to give you an example, and the wow me, we organize a lottery twice a year, where all of our line staff can enter into the lottery and win $50,000. Which is a big deal. I mean, that's obviously more than a years salary, that changes a life. And it's only open to line staff. We have created a program called, Dollar Meals. So our care manager, who may be a mom with children, can buy a meal for up to four people and take it home with her from the kitchen she's working in, so she doesn't have to cook when she gets home in the evening. We have a foundation called Potato Soup, where it's a foundation that's actually funded by our employees. There's about a quarter of a million dollars at any given point in time. And it's really there to help employees in need. They have a big health issue, they have an issue with a divorce and they need legal help. And many of our employees come from outside of the U.S and if there's been as it was in certain parts of the world and big, big climate issues. And they might have a family back there that has issues and they lost their home. Well, we help them go there. And what's really, I think really strong in this is, and I didn't create it so I don't take any credit for it, is that we have 500 employees that on a regular basis are putting money from their pay, every paycheck into this Potato Soup. And many of these employees are earning the minimum wage and they're doing that to help one another. So I think it shows just how much of a community we're trying to create. Chad: Yeah. Sandra: Yeah. So they're some of the examples. Joel: Yeah. You have quite a background, COACH is on your resume, Amazon, which we talk about frequently. We'll get into that. Chad: Oh, yeah. Sandra: Yeah. Joel: Those are big brands, well known. And so the senior living, wouldn't necessarily be a natural progression in my mind. So what was the genesis of Chad: She's shaking her head vigorously. Joel: ... The genesis moving from those big brands to senior living? Sandra: Yeah. You know that I started my presentation without this morning because effectively... When I announced at Amazon, I was heading HR at the time for what we call the sellers division. And the sellers division was generating half the revenue for Amazon at the time. It's all the third-party vendors on the platform. Chad: Oh, yeah. Sandra: And we were doing some really cool things. We were doing machine learning, we were creating a lot of stuff. We created Amazon Pay, which rivals with other forms of pay. We Chad: Apple, Samsung. Yeah. Sandra: ... And so, when I was approached, it was a headhunter and I thought, why the hell would they even consider me? One, I know nothing about health care. Two, this feels small. And I must be honest, I was scared. I had never not been to a senior living company, since I had been about 10 years old and I went with my dad to see my grandmother at the time. And it was scary. Joel: Yeah. Sandra: Everywhere, it smelled. Joel: Sure. Sandra: People looked really sad. And so, I thought this isn't for me. And then I was on a layover at a Dubai airport. I was actually going to Hyderabad to speak at the first, Women Leaders in Tech, conference there. Chad: Nice. Sandra: And I don't know if either of you have ever flown from Seattle to Hyderabad. Chad: No. Sandra: You have three hours, at two in the morning, at Dubai airport and there's nothing to do. And so I thought, what can I... Maybe I should take a look at this. What is the market? And it was just kind of surfing on the web and seeing this is going to be an incredibly vibrant industry. It is at the moment, the baby boomers are hitting this as consumers, not as customers. They have really different expectations. The industry traditionally is really conservative and it's not answering what baby boomers are going to want. At the same time, there's all these challenges from an HR perspective, how do you attract people and pay them $13 and expect them to stay? All of these things are meaty big problems to solve in sort of the Amazon speak. And honestly, I loved what I was doing at Amazon, but at the end of the day, do I want to sell more stuff to more people? Joel: Is it change somebody's life? Sandra: Yeah. Joel: That's the question. Sandra: Yeah. And so the purpose of this and then getting into starting to interview, with Dwayne and the leadership team and realizing these people are on a mission, it's not a company, it's a course. And they really believe that... And we believe that we're going to transform this space and we're no longer talking about it at senior living. We're talking about it as wellness. If you can position it in that way, it just completely opens the perspective of what we're doing. Chad: Words mean everything, right? Sandra: But they do, but because they set a structure, you have to put substance behind them, but it allows you to dream and then to start bringing people around it. Chad: Yeah. What do you want to be? I mean, that's, you have to start somewhere right? Sandra: Yeah. Chad: So when it comes down to hiring and trying to, again, there's only so many of these types of individuals in healthcare and wellness. Sandra: Sure. Chad: So it's hard. Do you work directly with marketing? Is there a marketing department and what is your relationship with them? Sandra: So we do have a marketing department. We work with them in a very operational way. If you go on our website, you'll see something called the wisdom diaries, which is the way we talk about who we are. And that was something created by the marketing team. It's all about connection and it's all about the fact that, we have 50 different nationalities that work for us. We have just opened a senior living community in Newcastle in Washington and it's open to Asian, a wide variety of Asian residents. You think their differences. In fact, there's more that unites us than divides us. And that's what this is about. So we do work with marketing and we don't work enough with them because we need a lot more to build our employer brand. Chad: Yeah. Well and I think a signal of a place like the gathering, having somebody from town acquisition and then also connecting with us, is our second year here, that they understand the importance behind that connection. And I believe, tell me what you think. I really believe that, marketing is falling down and they don't see the actual candidates coming in. And that's like a blind spot, because in most cases, in tell us about your applicant tracking system, the amount of people who come to your site, right? Those people could prospectively be the ones that are utilizing your services later and, or they have family members. Sandra: Absolutely. Chad: Right? So that impacts, I mean literally impacts the bottom line. Is that a story that you're telling in TA so that marketing understands how important it is that you perspectively get more collaboration and budget? Sandra: It's interesting you asked that because, we have a number of our employees that do have family members in our communities and they placed them once they had joined the company. We're expensive, we're high end. And so, it does require to have a certain amount of means, but it's something that's known. With two and a half thousand employees, two and a half thousand residents. We should know our residents. And one of the biggest failures of many companies, and Jeff Bezos announces it, in his letter to his shareholders every year, is that you lose the day one perspective. You lose who you were at the very origin, when you had your leaders doing everything and they knew the frontline, they were the ones providing care to. And when you get bigger and you're more successful, you lose that, because it creates structure, you create layers, you create people who make decisions, who don't get into the communities. Chad: Swerving further away from what matters. Sandra: Exactly. We tell our stories with... And it's actually done with marketing. And every day we have a ritual called standup, where in every community it happens three times a day at home office that happens once a day. The standup is one of our hallmarks. It's the, one of the ways we operate, it brings together our employees. The first thing we do is, we celebrate an employee. And the second thing we do is we celebrate a resident. And we do that even at home office. Chad: And that happens every day? Sandra: Every day. And at the community level three times a day because we're 24/7 business. So you've got shift. It's really essential. Our president Kris Engskov came from Starbucks. He was head of North America. It's big, big team, he had 70,000 employees. And when he joined the company and I was creating the onboarding plan, we had him go into our communities for six months. And he was a care manager for three months. So he got the little old ladies up every morning. Chad: Wow! Sandra: He dressed them. Well, he showered them first, then he dressed them, then he brought them to breakfast. So he could really understand what our employees are doing because we celebrate that. One last thing maybe and just related to that, when I joined, I wanted to understand, why did the care managers that we have that have been with us for 10 years or more, why did they join originally and why are they still with us? What is it that keeps them here? And unanimously they all said, "I love my residents and they love me back." Now that's squishy to talk about love in business, but it's not in our business. Chad: We'll get back to the interview in a minute. Building a cult brand is not easy, especially when you're sending candidates into a black hole, which is why you need friends like Roopesh Nair, CEO of SmashFly on your side. Joel: Having someone submit a resume that just goes into the black hole is devastating for candidate experience, doing to close the black hole and ensure everyone has a great experience when applying. Roopesh Nair: We're doing a group of things out there. One is to ensure that the application experience itself is seamless by integrating with ATSs meaningfully and providing the statuses back and forth and ensuring that deliverers of communication are activated every time there's a status coming back and forth from the ATSs. So just kind of providing transparency in the application process by leveraging our candidate relationship management solution. The second aspect is then actually ensuring that we're using our matching algorithm to bubble up people pretty quickly where they are a great fit for that particular role in the company and ensuring that the conversational engagement starts right away and the recruiter is notified while the engagement is going on. It's critical then that ways we are prioritizing those engagements which are needed to the most important applicants right away. And then eventually ensuring that anyone who is not necessarily a good fit at that point, we have continued to engage them. Whether it is the job they applied for or for any other job or for that matter, just general brand awareness and general engagement around what might be a good fit for those guys, and shows that that black hole is minimized. . Chad: Let SmashFly help activate your brand and keep relationships at the heart of your CRM. For more information, visit smashfly.com. Chad: You are the people business. Sandra: We are the people business. Chad: And people need that feeling of as Douglas Atkins talked about, belonging. Sandra: Exactly. Chad: Right? Sandra: Yes. Chad: And if they feel like they belong, the residents and obviously, the only way they're going to feel that way is if staff feels that way. Right? Sandra: Yeah. Joel: So I think that's a great internal message, but obviously a challenge to get that message out externally to get people to come work for you. So Chad: In a job description. Joel: ... Sort of tactical, yes. What's the secret sauce in giving that message externally for people that you're trying to recruit? Sandra: Well, one of the ways, and again, it's actually working with marketing. So you're absolutely right, that's really a crux to helping us communicate better. But we tell stories, we put them on our website of leaders in the organization that started out as care managers and we have a number. So we have managed to create career path thing for, people who have the aspiration to continue growing and developing up to the level of vice president of operations. And that gives aspiration. It allows us to hire people that may not want to do that, but seeing that we care enough to do it, they're more inclined to actually want to talk to us. We've just recently created as well as school internally, I don't know if you're aware, but in Washington you have to have a certification called the CNA, to be able to work as a care manager. And it's really tough because many of our care staff they come from very different demographics, that English is not their first language. So they fail the class and these classes are organized by third party vendors and they're expensive and most of them pay for it out of their pocket. We decided to create it in house. So to hire care staff, that may not have had that experience. Chad: I love this woman. Joel: Good. Chad: This is the, this is exactly what we talk about all the time. You're not trying to poach talent, you're manufacturing talent who are fitting to the culture of what you want and what they want. Sandra: Yeah. Well. Thank you, that's really well said. Chad: So, I'm sorry. Continue with the pipelining. Sandra: So we've just recently launched it and we're hiring for that. So we're hiring for them to go into our school. I have someone on my team who's a registered nurse, who created the program, got it certified by the state of Washington. Now it allows us to actually organize it and do that in house. Another thing we were doing, and it's still early days, so I will put a kind of a preface that it's... I can't share any results with you, but we've realized that there are cultures that have the DNA to care. How do we go after them in a more strategic way? We've actually gone to Puerto Rico and we've started to meet different associations. We've looked at what care is, in Puerto Rico. Actually families don't put their elderly family members in homes today and because it's not part of their culture. But we have a huge amount of young people that want to have a career an opportunity to grow. And just don't have that opportunity in Puerto Rico. So we're going to be creating a bridge to bring them over to the mainland and provide additional sourcing for us. Because again, that's the way we think we'll be more vibrant if we are doing that rather than poaching people and paying them a dollar more to actually get them in. Chad: Now is there a contract? You're coming over, you're on a contract. I mean, you could... I was in the military for 20 years and I mean, to be able to have my GI bill at the time, $40,000 now it's like a hundred thousand dollars but you have to sign a contract. Sandra: Mm-hmm(affirmative). Chad: And I always thought that that just made sense for somebody who wants to do this. So you guys have pretty much mimicked that to an extent. Sandra: Yeah, that's true. Mm-hmm(affirmative). It is and we're obviously relocating them. We're paying for their relocation, we're paying for their certification because there's no requirement in Puerto Rico, putting them up in housing temporarily. In Washington it's... Again, this is a tough problem to solve for because there's no base of Puerto Ricans in Washington. If we were doing this in Florida, they have a whole series of opportunities to reach out to somebody who can support them. So we're utilizing a social worker who helped them, so that we can really provide the support and ensure that we're being successful. And yes, there will be a contract. Chad: Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Joel: We talk a lot about technology on the show and everything from chatbots and AI and automation. Sandra: Sure. Joel: I mean, you're talking about some really warm and fuzzy stuff, some blocking and tackling. Is there any technology that you're excited about using currently or maybe in the future? Sandra: Yeah. And it doesn't belong to me. We have a whole department called Life Enrichment. And Life Enrichment is the organization, it's actually part of our marketing team that provides all of the evidence-based programs that we offer to our residents. But they also provide training to our employees around dementia. And we've done two things and through technology, that is supporting just what we're able to offer. The first one is, we have a service so that any residents family member, at any given point in the day can just click on an app and see what their mom is doing. The type of programs she's participated in, because to be honest some of our residents don't remember. So they say, "Oh, I didn't do anything today, I didn't leave the room." And then we find Chad: Yeah. Why is mom in the room all day? She's like, she hasn't. She's play, yeah. Sandra: ... And, yeah. So, we have the photos, we have her participating. And so this gives us a real perspective to share, with the residents family members, who sometimes are not actually in the same geography. Chad: So, is that something that you share almost like a portfolio inside the technology in the app? Sandra: It's something that is available to the resident’s family member and the residents themselves. Chad: Okay. Because, I mean those are still life memories, there's dad having a good time playing poker. Sandra: Yes, exactly. Absolutely. Joel: How about tech in terms of recruiting? Sandra: So, there is one other thing that we're doing that we're working on and training for around dementia. Utilizing tech to give our employees the experience of what dementia feels like and looks like. And so utilize Joel: Just say VR. Sandra: VR. Joel: Yes. Sandra: Oh, yeah. So. Chad: And Just go ahead and drop the mic. Joel: I'll be at the barchat too. Sandra: So that's part of the things that we're doing to really, so that we're connecting better with our residents. In terms of recruiting, we use kind of the classical stuff. We use greenhouse. I use enneagram to test on certain qualities that we look for around servant leadership. Chad: Let's talk about back to the application process and the black hole that we always talk about. Okay? So applicants come through they're, the silver medalist, the bronze medalist or what have you, they're not getting the job. How do they not go into the black hole? How do you guys nurture, keep in touch with them? Because more than likely you're going to have a job opening sometime and that silver medalist is going to be your next gold meld list. So what do you guys do to nurture them and make sure that they have a continued great experience? Sandra: So that's an interesting consideration, because if anybody is a gold medalist, they're going to be hired on the spot. If we don't hire someone in three hours, they found a job somewhere else. If we're talking about line staff, if we're talking about general managers, obviously that's a longer process. As we look at Joel: What if they're not the gold medalists, what if they're the bronze medalist, but you would still hire them if you had a position open? Sandra: ... In care staff we don't and we talk about this on a constant basis, and we actually challenged GMs who may have a need. If you were talking about walking around a community or a retirement home in other people's jargons and seeing that there's not enough staff on the floor and there are a lot of companies that will compromise and that will hire warm bodies, because they just can't hire the people they really need. We do not do that. We have to hire great people. And good isn't just good enough. And that sounds really aspirational. But what we do is we say for all of our residents, when you come in the door, you can have a tour 24/7 in one of our communities and you can go in without any form of meeting or agenda and just walk around the community, you will be offered a tour. We try to create a wow experience for our residents and the family members. We try to create a wow experience to go back to the mantra I shared earlier on. For candidates who come in the door, we don't keep, obviously we can track, my care manager who's applied to our communities. We know that they've applied in the past. We know what we've said about them. We'll check and see if they're still good, but we won't, it'll be a passive approach. If I'm looking at general managers, marketing directors, sales directors, we have someone in my team who heads talent acquisition and she's reaching out to people, the same people constantly, to keep them warm. She shares, innovation that we've, she shares videos, some of the things I shared about with you earlier on. So that they really are understanding that we are still open. We invite people as well to an event called Epic. Epic is a three day non-business meeting, for our executives. And it means empowering people, inspiring consciousness. Joel: See what you did there. Sandra: Uh-huh(affirmative). And smart, yeah. Joel: Yeah. Dare to get past me. Sandra: Yeah. And it's an event where, you'll have obviously sort of our key people in the room over three days. The objective of that is to help them become better individuals and not just in work, but as a person. Be a better husband or wife to be a better friend. And so they get access to a whole series of great inspirational people. And they also work on something that we call transform a life. And we ask people, we ask our teams, who are going to participate in this event and we put them into groups. And so groups of six or seven, we give them $500 and we say, "Go for it, you transform someone's life and then you're going to present it at Dwayne's Night during Epic." Chad: Nice. Sandra: And we do, I mean, honestly, people generally spend more because they put their own money in, but we have done things that are magical. And it makes you feel so proud to see that this is how people invest their time. And we can talk about that. So we obviously put it online and share some of the things we're doing. Joel: Let me come off my VR cloud for a second because I'm so happy. In today's world, most of who you are is what people outside of the organization say you are. Sandra: Yeah. Joel: And, I'm just curious about Glassdoor, Indeed reviews, other things like that. You currently have a four out of five star rating on Glassdoor, your CEO has a 90% rating, so not too shabby. But how much attention is paid to that from you? How much attention is paid to increase, you're nodding your head for listeners that can't see her? So talk about that and how important it is, and what you do to play damage control or improve that score. Sandra: A little bit less than 10 years ago we were rated number 46 out of 600,000 companies in the U.S, in Glassdoor, as the 46th Joel: Wow, not too bad. Wow! Sandra: ... And a company like Aegis that people didn't know. We take anything that our employees share in terms of feedback very, very seriously. We have someone in our marketing team that is scouting every single review from Glassdoor. As soon as we get one, where there are questions, where there are challenges from an employee who said... Who is not happy with the experience, it's sent to the whole leadership team. Our COO, most often will respond, but one of us will respond within 24 hours and will respond, "We want to talk to the person to find out what happened." Obviously they don't want to come forward, we will put in a response onto the site, but it's a lot of work and we believe it's really essential because we ask for feedback. So we use Glint. Chad: Oh, okay. Sandra: If you're aware. Chad: Yes. Sandra: To get a number of, quite a bit of feedback throughout the year. Why Glassdoor is important, because obviously candidates look at Glassdoor. Chad: Right. Sandra: We're doing it for our employees internally. We should be generating real actionable results if the experience has not been what an employee is looking for. And sometimes it's the manager who just was not good, didn't communicate. And we have to manage that. It becomes a management problem. It can be that we haven't taken the time to share and value that employee. So, there's a lot of things we can do, but we take it really seriously. Joel: That's great. We've had people on, that bury their head in the sand and don't bite any mine. So it's refreshing to hear the attention that you pay to it. Chad: Well, you have just become my new best friend. But we're going to have to wrap up. Sandra: Thank you. Chad: But I think we're going to have a version two of this. That we've got to dive deeper into some of this with you. But if people want to learn more about Aegis, want to learn more about you, where should they go? Sandra: We have a website Aegis Online. I never, don't respond to someone who reaches out. And my address is sandra.preyale@aegis.com. So if people want to share or give feedback, be more than happy to have them reach out to me. Chad: Excellent. Joel: Be careful what you wish for Sandra. Chad: Connect on LinkedIn. Sandra: Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. Chad: Excellent. Joel: Thanks for spending time. Chad: Thank you so much. Sandra: Thank you very much. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Outro: Well, this has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more visit, chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome.

It's The Chad & Cheese Birthday episode, which was totally overshadowed by: - Entelo kicking their founder & CEO to the curb - Go1.com, VergeSense, & MedWing get cash - Douche Marketing shaming session - Marketing Master Class by WalMart and Nvidia just redefined blasphemy The market is going crazy over tech which is why you should be researching, visiting, and calling companies like our sponsors Jobvite, Sovren, and JobAdx. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions' clients are changing the lives of people with disabilities, including veterans with service related disabilities. Adam Chambers: Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, Mr. President. Happy birthday to you. SFX: Happy birthday. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Another 2.1 million filed jobless claims this week in the US, bringing the 10 week total to nearly 41 million. And Chad and I turned another year older. So how's your week going? Chad: Yay. Joel: Welcome to The Chad and Cheese Podcast everybody. I'm your co-host Joel, I'll always be younger than Chad, Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad, much wiser, much smarter, Sowash. Joel: Much balder. On this week's show, dollars keep rolling in for the work from home venders, douche marketing is alive and well, and Entelo gets a new CEO. Grab a glass of prune juice grandpappy, you'll want to be regular for this one. We'll be right back. Sovren: Sovren parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V- R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. SFX: Happy birthday. Chad: We have to talk about the singing that started this whole thing off. That was something that I received yesterday, my birthday. Today is your birthday. It came from Adam Chambers, our favorite Irish-Mexican. He was singing his Marilyn Monroe rendition of happy birthday. And this is the birthday episode, so I thought that would be appropriate. Joel: Marilyn is rolling in her grave somewhere. Oh my God. What was that? Thanks Adam. Thanks Adam. Chad: Let's get some Corona virus stuff out of the way. We were just talking about, before the podcast, my daughter, she's a senior in high school, she's getting ready to graduate. And my wife, Julie and I were sitting on the couch this morning. She's like, "So how are you feeling about the whole graduation thing?" And I told her, I said, "You know what? I've been thinking more about the security, the safety, the distancing, the masks and all of that." It's been really hard. Not to mention, she walks across the "stage" today, and they take all the footage and they pull it together. They've been doing this for the last three days, so that they can get all the kids together. Then they edit it so that it happens all in one stream on YouTube. So today she walks, she really graduates on Saturday. There's all this stuff going on. It's really hard to reconcile because we're not really focusing on the event, we're focusing on all the shit around it, and it's just really weird, man. Joel: Help me envision this, they're each getting filmed individually walking across the stage in a gown? I'm Chad: Yeah. There were three days that they did this, right? And they have like three hour chunks, and they did it alphabetically. Right? Sowash, always at the end. So they're filming them coming across the stage, they get their pictures, all that other fun stuff. Only their families are in that area, which is why it takes so long. So they get the film done, they go do the next one and just rinse and repeat, and then they edited it all together into one segment of all the kids walking across the stage. It's a lot of work, but again, it's not what we're used to traditionally, so my brain doesn't know how to process it. Joel: So are you going to like fire up the Roku, and watch it on the big screen at the house? Or Chad: Yeah. Joel: Okay. All right. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. We'll definitely do that. And that will be "graduation", but it's just ... Again, we haven't had really time to process how we feel about her graduating high school. Because none of this feels like it's actually happening. Right? So, it's weird. Joel: Kind of like watching The Shining. You just feel a little a bit off after watching it, if not scared shitless. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I took the kids, my big kids, 10 and 13 years old, to the first restaurant that we've been to in 10 or 12 weeks. It was good to get out. We like restaurants, we like the whole thing. We were sitting way more than six feet apart from the next people that were there. Waitress, mask. We wore masks going in, obviously we had to take them off to eat, I'm not that good. Disposable menus or throwaway menus. And then of course washing hands afterwards. So I didn't feel scared or anything. I felt weird that there were a few older folks. And I don't mean like older like us, like gray hairs and walkers. And I was surprised to see that. But here in the Midwest, we have a much different attitude about this stuff than the coast do, I think. Chad: I agree. I agree. Let's call that our Corona block. Joel: Corona block. Chad: Shout outs. Joel: It's a short week. We both had birthdays. My wife is convinced we can't do this show in 30 minutes, she's probably right. But let's get to shout outs and see how tight we can get this show. Chad: Okay. From Austria, Ling Wu, over at the JOBIQO. She has been listening to the podcast for a while, and really enjoys the mix between entertainment and valuable insights. So thanks SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: ... Thanks Ling for listening. And very close to the same kind of comments, from D.C., Grant Clough, who's the director of TA over at AARP, which soon we're going to be members of, feels the same way as Ling. Although, he did say that he often does not agree with me, which I dig. Because you don't have to agree with us to listen, especially if you're looking for different challenging viewpoints and positions on ideals. Whether it's HR, TA, employment branding, economics, politics, we talk about it all. But Grant, I have to say, man, I love that. Thanks for listening. And thanks for not agreeing, because that's what this is all about. Joel: And when he says don't agree with you, does he mean you singular or are you plural, meaning both of us on the show? Chad: I don't know. But I would assume that more than likely, he will disagree with me and/or you, depending on our positions. Either way Joel: oh, that's guaranteed. That's guaranteed. Chad: Yeah. The whole message for me is, that's exactly what we want. We don't want group think, right? Joel: Sure, sure, sure. Shout out to you my friend. SFX: Happy birthday. Chad: Aw. Joel: Happy birthday, yesterday. Today is my birthday. Little known fact about us, born the same year, one day apart. I'm still getting into my birthday, but yours is done. How was it? Chad: It was good time. Mowed the lawn. Enjoyed myself, just chilled. Julie said, "What do you want for dinner?" I said, "Beer and pizza." She was like, "Done." It was perfect. Joel: You're mowing the lawn comment, I have to ... It was my wedding anniversary, four years. Are you four years as well or are you a year from me in the wedding anniversary? Chad: God, I can't remember. Joel: Okay. Well, I won't mention that to Julie. Anyway Chad: She can't either. Joel: ... Yeah. Said to my wife, "What do you want to do on our anniversary?" She loves her power washer, which is this whole Midwest suburban thing. She wanted to clean our trash cans with the power washer. So you're mowing lawns and my wife is power washing trash cans on a special day. Chad: Love it. Joel: Shout out to both of you. Chad: Shout out. Shout out to Kevin Anderson recruiter over at uShip in Austin, Texas. And from Jakarta, Nigel Hembrow, the CEO over at Astronaut. Thanks for connecting and listening gents. Joel: Very nice. Very nice. I'm going to give a shout out to Twitter for growing a pair this week. I don't know if you saw this, but Twitter finally took a stand on Trump's bullshit tweets, and said, "Hey, you might want to fact check this statement." And, of course, crybaby got all upset and wants to regulate the social media business and create a bunch of static for them. So, Twitter, congratulations. Shout out. But, you might regret that in the following months with new regulation and new feds up your ass. Chad: They have terms of service. And most of the shit that that fucker posts should be deleted. So, at the best, he can put a little check for voting information. Fuck that. Straight from the Netherlands, Kim Lockenberg, she actually Facebook video called me, so that her and her husband, I assume, boyfriend, I don't know, they could sing happy Joel: This is getting kind of kinky. Chad: ... They could sing happy birthday to me in Dutch. Joel: Nice. Chad: Well, at least I think it was Dutch, I really have no clue. But they were drunk, and they wanted to sing happy birthday to me, and so they video called me on Facebook and I thought that was hilarious. Joel: Where are my drunk video calls from couples in Scandinavian areas? What's up with that, dude? Chad: Dude, your birthday just started. Joel: That's pretty naughty stuff. I don't know about that. All right. My last one, and I'm going to be a little bit of a downer, but police violence, dude. This isn't a shout out, but what the fuck America? Chad: It's fucking ridiculous. Joel: I just don't have words for it. I don't know. This shit keeps happening. It's, it's sad, it's disgusting. I just don't get it, dude. This shit keeps happening and I don't know why, and it's just amazingly frustrating and sad. And shit needs to change. Chad: The thing that drives me crazy. I have a ton ... I was in the military for 20 years, and there are a lot of cops that have served in the military, so I have a lot of a cop buddies. And to be able to see these rotten apples just spoil the whole fucking ... We have individuals that are out there doing great work in protecting us, but we've got this stupid fucking son of a bitch who has his knee on the dude's neck and then starts playing with him, "Oh, can you get up? Can you get up?" And he's like, "No, I can't breathe. I can't get up." And again, in suing, the guy dies. Very reminiscent of when the gentlemen was putting in a choke hold and said he couldn't breathe, and died. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So this is our ... And this is one of the things that [Thorn Ellis 00:11:37.19] actually told us, in London when we asked, "What can a couple of white guys do to try to help stop this shit? To try to help press equality? To try to just help." And he said, "Speak up." So, I appreciate you calling this out, but this is our job as a couple of white dudes, of allies to be able to make a bunch of fucking noise when we see shit that's wrong. Joel: Yeah. I want to understand, you have police buddies, I have a few, not that I've talked about this with them, but is this normal? I understand like to disable a guy or get him down and get him cuffed. I understand the need of the neck thing, probably works really well, I don't understand keeping him down for five plus minutes. And how dumb do you have to be, with multiple cameras taking video of all this stuff, to continue to just knee on the guy? I just don't fucking get it. Imagine the stuff we don't see Chad: Exactly. Joel: ... that isn't videotaped and shined a light on in the public. This is a much bigger problem, even than we think it is, even though we see this on a regular basis. Chad: It is. It is. And again, for all those public servants that are out there that are doing the best that they can to do their job right, to police the public. One of my best friends is in PR for a small police department in Brownsburg, and his whole focus is, how do we connect to the community and really do this the right way? For guys like that, who has spent his whole career trying to connect to the community, that shit doesn't help. Whether it was in your community or not, people are still seeing that, and that's how they're viewing the police overall in general. And man, that's fucking hard. Joel: Yeah. Bad on all accounts. Do you have something positive to end the shout outs on? Chad: Yes. So I just want to say, shout out to my wife, Julie's team. They canceled a team meeting yesterday. Joel: Yeah. Chad: And their cancellation response, and Julie actually sent the response to me, and this is it, I quote, "This meeting is canceled so that we can all celebrate the birth of Chad Sowash." SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: "#Drink beer." Yeah. Very funny guys. I appreciate the pandering and it obviously works. So shout out to the the team at Disability Solutions, who is also our transcription sponsor. Joel: Oh, very nice. We appreciate that. Let's get to the news. Chad: Events really quick. Virtual travel brought to you by Shaker Recruitment Marketing, really quick. SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: Next week is SmashFly Transform, it's June 3rd. You and I are getting on the mic in front of the camera for a session called, We the Brand for the People by the People, and there's a question mark after that. Joel: Tricky. Chad: We're bringing Chris Kneeland in, who is the co-founder of an agency called Cult Collective. And he's also the co-founder of The Gathering. And we did just an awesome onstage segment in Banff, earlier this year, and Symphony Talent and SmashFly wanted us to bring that to Transform. Unfortunately, we can't do it live, so we're doing it virtual. We're going to have cocktails, we're going to be sitting back, relaxing, and we're going to have the hard discussion around why marketing has a blind spot, and why talent acquisition is in the fetal position and not going after that cash. Joel: It's going to be a fun time. I love Chris. Chris is the man. Chad: So register at smashfly.com. There we go. Joel: Now to the news. Chad: CEO Joel: Entelo. Chad: ... Out. Joel: Yes. So, yeah, reported this week, we kind of got the scoop on it. Little story, I got an email, Tuesday, that this had gone down. And it's actually has been done for a while, but it just now sort of seeing the light of day, I guess. Chad: Really? Joel: But, Entelo, most of our listeners will know them, founded in 2011 by Jon Bischke, a lot of our listeners will know him as well, they've raised 40 million total. The business has been up and down over the years. Certainly, GDPR, all the stuff with LinkedIn and getting access to profiles has been challenging for them. Last year they threw a hail Mary, they acquired ConveyIQ, to bring those two dinosaurs together to hopefully survive the asteroid because they could keep each other warm. Apparently hasn't gone as well as Bischke had sold it to the investors, who had actually put in more money to make the acquisition happen. So, announced this week officially, the company released a statement that Jon Bischke is no longer the CEO. So the news now is, Robert Tsao, hopefully I'm saying that correctly, it's T-S-A-O Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... Is now a CEO of the company. Tsao was at Jobvite prior to Entelo. My source says that he was not real happy with Finnigan being ousted as CEO at Jobvite, I'm not sure ousted is the word, we don't know exactly why Dan left. He might've just said, "I'm done with this for a while." But he didn't really like when Aman came in and did his thing and I guess there was some tension there allegedly, which made the move out to Entelo more easily. Also to announce, I texted him on this week and he said that Jared Adams, who was the product guy at Canvas is now the SVP of product at Jobvite. So little shuffling of the chairs there. But Entelo obviously, I don't want to say dying company, but a company that's probably not doing very well right now, for their sake, I hope the new CEO can turn things around, but this is pretty big news in the industry for that sort of mid tier technology provider. Chad: Yeah. It's interesting that they bring a chief product officer in, that saying something. I think, right out of the gate, that the product is lacking and that perspectively Entelo and ConveyIQ, the connection or the integrations or whatever the hell should be happening, just isn't happening. That's key. Especially when you have an acquisition, you need to be able to create solid products so that people can go sell that shit. Right? Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: Not saying that that didn't happen, but obviously what they did create didn't sell. I think it's interesting that Danielle, who was the CEO at ConveyIQ wasn't upped. So that's sending signals to me, how long is she going to be around? Yeah. It just really sounds like this is a product position and more than likely the investors themselves are the ones who are going to be steering the ship from now on. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. My guess is Danielle probably signed at least a year contract, which is still going. I think Robert, the new CEO, will make that decision, as he gets settled in. I reached out to him on LinkedIn, asked him about, "Hey, you want to come on the show and talk about things?" He said that he would once things get settled. So Chad: Excellent. Joel: ... Hopefully we can vet through some of these things and new ideas and what his vision is for the company. Because certainly well known brand, mostly a favorable brand I think, for most people, I just think it's gotten stale over the last few years. So if he can revive it, great. My source did also say that he didn't think that Robert was a great leader, although he is a great product guy. So he thought the move was a reach for Entelo, but time will tell. Maybe this guy put under pressure will rise to the occasion and make things happen for them. We certainly hope so. Bu yeah, big news out of Entelo this week. Chad: Yeah. When you are looking at, let's say for instance, an organization that is not on the rise, not to mention COVID's happening and all that other fun stuff, you're probably going to go ahead and kick the founder to the curb because they're going to do what they want to do because it's their company and they created it. So you get rid of them and you get somebody that you can control. Not saying that's what's happening, but it just makes sense. The guy was a chief product officer for goodness sakes. Right? They need to be able to sell something. So they need him to come in, rework the product and then really focus on that, and allow the investors really to play the role, to an extent, of the shadow CEO. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Almost 41 million invested in this company in the last 10 years or so. Obviously the people want a cash out event. I don't see IPO in their future anytime soon. So I assume Robert's goal is to get this product in line, to get it off the books for those investors and then hopefully make some money. But my guess is, they're a long way from that and have a lot of work ahead of them. Chad: Yeah. I agree. Well, some other companies received funding. go1.com was one of those companies. They are really like a Udemy or a Coursera, they're much like that. Joel: Yeah. Lynda. Chad: Yeah, or Lynda. They're really focused on helping individuals, specifically professional training courses. And it's interesting that we are seeing so much focus on this as we're home, because this shit should have happened when we were in the office as well. It's like, the quote was, "The need for tools to help them, the employees, feel connected to their profession can be as important as tools to more practically keep them connected". Well, that happens when you're in the office as well, this isn't something that is new. We've had skills gaps. We need to be able to prep people for their career path so that we can retain them and push them up the ladder. Companies looking to do this now because of "COVID", they've had blinders on for years. The big question is, will we revert back to not giving a shit when we get back in the office? Joel: Yeah. I think this movement for education at home has been going on for a long time. It's incredibly competitive. Go1's raised $84 million total. The latest round was a C round at 40 million. They have backers like SEEK, out of Australia, the largest job board there in the Pacific, a lot of our listeners know who they are. Microsoft is behind this. Salesforce is behind this. You mentioned Lynda, who was acquired by LinkedIn, quite a few years ago. This is not a new concept, Udemy, which you mentioned. I think there's an also an interesting perspective of what's going to happen to universities and what is a college education worth, going forward. And I think that most people believe, just going to a university for four years for a degree, which used to equal a job, doesn't necessarily happen anymore. Chad: Right. Joel: You have to keep expanding your skillset. You have to keep learning. And these solutions are obviously perfect fits for that. I think it's incredibly competitive. There's a lot of money going into it. I think most companies will move toward getting a strategy around continued education. What does that look like? How do we keep our people fresh? How do we get new people that have great attitudes but maybe not the skills to learn those skills and become more important to us? And it's also very expensive to just send people back to school, right? It's still popular to like, you want an MBA? All right, we'll send you to Kellogg. We'll send you to wherever. And that's very expensive. Whereas these solutions, do you learn the same thing? Probably. Is it a lot cheaper? Yeah. But you also don't lose people as readily, retention is probably better than if you give someone a degree from Duke, a master's in Duke, they're probably more likely to go somewhere else. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So I think it's good for the company. I think it's good for the employees. I think it's going to be a trend that that catches hold. Where this fits into education after K through 12, I think will be interesting. I think that's sort of the next trend that you'll see this thing catch onto and universities embracing it. But you keep seeing these work from home companies get funded, Go1 is just one example. VergeSense was also in the news this week, raised $9 million, 10 million. This is the sort of 1984 big brother company that we've talked about, where they keep an eye on you while you work, what's your temperature? How close are you to other people? "Keeping people safe". We also have Medwig that got 30 million, a company out of Germany that's in the healthcare sector trying to get them employed. So you see these trends that are getting funded and it's probably going to continue for the next 12, 18 months. Chad: Yeah. It's interesting to see the funding still happening. Right? It hasn't dried up. It's just diverted to different areas. Joel: All right. Let's take a break. Keeping this tight, and we'll talk about douche marketing. Always fun. Jobvite: Getting the right people to apply for the right jobs at the right time has always been a challenge. And now with an influx of candidates and increased workload, recruiters have to work smarter to provide a memorable candidate experience. Make moments matter with Jobvite, a comprehensive talent acquisition suite, that offers a marketing inspired approach to recruiting, so that talent teams can more intelligently attract, engage and retain top talent. Combine the power of AI and the human touch. Jobvite, recruit with purpose, hire with confidence. SFX: Happy birthday. Chad: I'm going to see if I can get Amber Ferrari to read that, because I think our show is missing that. Joel: Amber loves you. So I think you can get her to do that. She'll do that for you. Chad: Okay. So I got to start this off. I'm sitting on the couch last weekend and one of our listeners/troublemakers reaches out to me with a screenshot of a LinkedIn post. And her message was, "This is such arrogant bullshit". And here's the text that she actually sent me of the LinkedIn post, "Our CEO of Titus Talent, Jonathan Reynolds-" Joel: Who? Chad: "... Is a visionary, entrepreneur and game changer. He started Titus Talent after experiencing firsthand, that the traditional hashtag recruiting model was broken and had to be changed to produce better results and create lasting partnerships. Curious about learning more on how we revolutionize the recruiting process?" I then couldn't stop myself, and she knew that, I responded on the post and basically mocking the arrogance and inviting him on the show. He responded very quickly with, "That sounds like fun," and I haven't heard from this motherfucker since. Joel: So there's two strategies here. One was popularized by the Nazis, probably not the one that you want to go with, which is basically, if you tell a big enough lie enough times, people will believe it. The other side of that is, your brand is what people say about you, right? Elon Musk doesn't do ads for his company saying he's a visionary, a brilliant guy, a genius. He's that because people say that about him. Chad: And he puts rockets into space, and then brings them back and they land by themselves. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. He's an extreme example. But I could say that about anyone in our industry, right? Colin or Aman or anyone that's in our space, right? They don't beat their chest, people like us and customers are talking about the cool things they're doing, the innovative stuff that's going on with their companies. They don't need to advertise that they're led by a visionary to try to get people to come to their webinar. Chad: Yes. Joel: Yeah. This is a real stretch. I've never heard of this company. I've never heard of this dude. Chad: No. Joel: Maybe he'll come on the show and totally blow us both away, but I doubt it. This is pretty shitty, douchey, whack marketing. Chad: I'm wondering, as I was continuing to think about this, because I think about that shit way too much, do you think this is actually in his voice because he is the CEO at a small company? Or has marketing gotten over their skis on these types of posts? What do you think? Joel: Yeah. We don't know. It's either a really egotistical leader saying, "Hey, 28 year old marketing manager, I want you to do messaging about how brilliant I am and how visionary I am." Or, it's a marketing manager saying like, "I'm going to get on the good side of our CEO and talk him up as a brilliant visionary, and get good standing in the company." We don't know because we're not there. If we talk to this guy for 30 minutes, we'll probably get a good idea of which one it is. If I were a betting man, I'd say he's an egomaniac and wants to beat his own chest. Chad: Well, I would just say, message to Jonathan Reynolds, we'd love to have you on the show, can't wait my friend. But I would also say, this next article would be something that you should probably read and emulate, because Walmart's people marketing ... Remember in April when Walmart dropped a commercial called Walmart Neighbors, with their employees singing the Lean on Me tune, Bill Withers, who actually just died not too long ago. Dude, that ad was great. The focus were the people. The message was, lean on us. Joel: Hell yeah. Chad: Then what did they do? They up the ante, they just dropped another video ad, starring an employee reading an original poem about working during COVID-19 pandemic. Terrell Trizz Myles, Trizz Joel: Cool. Chad: ... A department manager at a store in San Tan Valley in Arizona recites his poem inside the store in a new ad which was filmed after hours when the store was closed. The poem, Hearts of Magic, addresses the need for resiliency and strength during difficult times while offering a message of hope and connection. And personally Joel: It's awesome. Chad: ... I think this is how you do marketing, right? This is how you do it. Your products, your services, your company, it's the people. Joel: Your employees. Yeah. Chad: It's not the CEO. Can the CEO be involved? Hell yeah. Are they the centerpiece? Hell no. Right? The people are the centerpiece. And this is one of the things that again, going like a rant, when we see CEO's being paid 1500 times that of the people that are actually doing the job. In this country we have really fallen short on understanding who's doing the work and why companies are so goddamn successful. It's not the motherfucker up top, it's all those people that do the hard work every single day. Joel: Sure. Chad: And when you see douche marketing, like we just talked about. And then you see something like this, you have to say that Walmart gets it. Joel: Yeah. Do you feel more like going to Walmart after that? Or seeing the douchey webinar ad, do you feel more like signing up for the webinar? Right? And it's a brilliant ad. I'd love to know how they, whatever, the exacts whoever got wind of this poem, I'm sure it wasn't from the topdown saying, "Hey everybody, write a poem and you might get in an ad." I'm sure this was a grassroots thing, that this guy wrote this poem and his manager probably said, "Oh, I should make Arkansas aware of this," Bentonville or whatever the fuck it is, and it got to the marketing agency. But it's brilliant, it's touching, it's optimistic, it's a great ad. And whoever's doing Walmart's marketing is brilliant. Because 20 years ago, Walmart was the devil, they were killing America, the mom and pops, they were the devil. Amazon has kind of taken their place. But how did Walmart become the hometown cheerleader place we go for everything provider? It's great marketing, and they do a good service and they have low prices. But this ad is great, and a big round of applause for them because ... Well done. Chad: So again, there's the douchey side of the house, or there's the part where you hold your people up and demonstrate how things actually get done. Now, this is a conversation for another time, those people who are actually doing the hard work aren't getting paid enough. The uplifting, I think, of them demonstrating that they are the people that make this brand, that's a step in the right direction. Now they need to get paid more. Joel: Don't be douchey. JobAdX: Nope, not for me. All these jobs look the same. Urgh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just half-heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits, with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection, and reducing candidate drop-off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team? Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com. That's, joinus@J-OB-A-D-X.com. Attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Chad: Waka waka waka waka waka waka waka waka waka waka waka. Joel: Speaking of birthdays, Pac-Man turns 40 this year. So, that's a birthday baby. Chad: That is. Joel: And you and I remember when that shit came out. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: That's how OG we are. Chad: That's how OG we are. Joel: Dude, I used to love the arcade. Did you? Chad: Oh God. Yeah. How could you not? Donkey Kong, Defender, [Inaudible 00:35:54.07] Joel: [Inaudible 00:35:56.12], asteroid. Oh, man. Centipede. Chad: Yes. Joel: I'm going to cry. Chad: And the company that actually makes the chips for many of those games, Nvidia, is best known, obviously for those graphic cards, but the company conducts some serious ass research into AI as well. For its latest project, their researchers taught an AI system to recreate the game of Pac-Man from scratch simply by watching it being played. I have no clue how that works. Is there like a little robot that's watching it and then it's all feeding into its robot brain, and then it's a little robot fingers are developing it? I don't understand how the algorithm works. Joel: Oh, yeah. You and I aren't smart enough to know what Nvidia is doing here, or what the AI is doing. And Nvidia by the way is huge in Bitcoin mining, which again, is beyond my understanding, but this is like crazy, super powerful computing. And the fact that you can just show a computer what a screen of what's going on and it doesn't see the code, it doesn't see any of the guts of what's going on and it can recreate that product and what's going on in that screen is pretty mind blowing and scary. But damn, AI is quickly becoming scary smart. I mean, damn. Chad: Yeah. Well, and Nvidia says work like this shows how AI will be used for game design in the future. Developers can input their work into the AI and use it to create variations or maybe design new levels. So what they're saying here, and the gaming industry in itself, it's like a fucking workshop. It's one of those sweat shops, pretty much. You come in, you work your ass off more than 40, 80 hour weeks, you're developing the game and then when the game comes out, there's a bunch of fanfare. You don't get time off, you just get back into that next game. And people are burnt out in this industry. So I guarantee you companies like Nvidia are like, "Hey, we see what's happening in the industry, people are leaving, they're ejecting after seven to 10 years, so what do we do? Those senior people aren't around anymore, we need to teach our algorithims just to do this." Joel: Yeah. For real. Imagine, like if someone said, "You know what? I want to make a Twitter clone," set up AI to watch Twitter and how it works, and that it can actually code that shit to replicate what Twitter is. I'm just pulling Twitter out of the air. But technically you could say like, hey, I want to make a site like my favorite ATS, or my favorite whatever banking site, or whatever it is. And if you can just watch that shit and develop that, that's fucking crazy top, dude. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That's next, next level shit. Chad: They said that there are obviously imperfections. It was blurry, yada, yada, yada. That doesn't matter. Okay? This is the start of creation without any human intervention or even the need for it down the road when it becomes crisp, it becomes easy and you don't need Bob stroking those keys. Joel: It's like the first dog you saw that Boston Dynamics made, right? You're like, that's ridiculous, it doesn't walk very fast. It can't jump. Now that fucker is running through parks and telling people to stay six feet apart, and opening doors and everything else. So this thing in 10 years, man, who knows? Shit, it's scary. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to podcast with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

Candidates delivered straight to the Hiring Manager sourced purely by Artificial Intelligence? It's happening already, recruiters are being cut out of the process and algorithms are taking over. On today's exclusive Chad & Cheese speak with Untapt's Chief Data Scientist, Jon Krohn about what is already happening in recruitment and A.I. This exclusive brought to you by the masters of AI matching technology, Sovren. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Sovren: Sovren parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Jon Krohn: Different candidates are looking for different kinds of experiences. Some candidates would rather have the fully automated experience. They're used to using Uber and Seamless for getting their cars and food respectively. They want to be able to push buttons and see statistics and get things immediately and have results happening in a fully automated fashion. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. We got a show virgin on today Chad. Chad: What? Joel: Never heard the show, doesn't know us. We are going to have some fun with this one. All right. Dude, Jon Krohn is our guest today. You don't know Jon, you probably don't know his company untapt. But Jon is smarter than five of us, PhD from Oxford, bestselling author. I'll let him do a little bit of that. But first of all, Jon, welcome to the show. Jon Krohn: Great to be on. That was a frightening introduction. Joel: Yeah, I'm sure your PR person just said, "Hey, do this show. Okay." And you're like, "Okay, I'll do the show." Also you're Canadian. Again, we have a 10 sorry rule here on the show, so you have to say sorry at least 10 times. Jon Krohn: I will do my best. I'm sorry that I haven't already. Joel: Although I loved your pre-show comment that you've been in New York long enough that you don't say sorry for anything, so I appreciate that. Jon Krohn: Yeah. When I first got here, immediately I arrived in the train station and I said sorry to someone and they took my lunch money, so I learned right away. Chad: Usually they look at you and say, "What the fuck are you sorry about?" Joel: Was it a rat though is what I'm curious about. Jon Krohn: She was a rat dragging a pizza slice. Joel: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Chad: That's standard. Joel: I will say I enjoy the ... So we're going to talk about your book a little bit, but the name of the book is Deep Learning Illustrated. And when I see Illustrated I always think of Sports Illustrated. I have to ask, do you have a swimsuit issue of the book? Jon Krohn: I've actually, I've just been posing for it. Yeah. Joel: Well, we can't wait for that to come out. And when it does, let us know. Jon Krohn: It's only me. Yeah, I don't think it's going to sell well. Joel: All right Jon, in all seriousness not really. But give us the scoop on you. Give us the scoop maybe more importantly on your company and what you do for them. Because Chad and I have been around for a long time and didn't know untapt. We've never seen you at a show, we've never gotten a press release from you, but you have real money and real investors and real people behind you. Here's your time to shine, go. Jon Krohn: Yeah, it's interesting. I guess we need to be doing more marketing. We do have great people. We do have great people backing us as well. And we've been around for a while, so we've been around since 2014, but we existed primarily as a recruitment marketplace for most of our years. So up until February, 2019, when we licensed out our recruitment marketplace, we then began focusing on becoming a B2B business where we are selling recruitment algorithms, HR algorithms, user interfaces to wrap around these algorithms, with the idea that we can automate a lot of mundane tasks that HR professionals, recruiters have to deal with today. And because we're both removing the monotony and we're taking advantage of high powered algorithms across large databases, we can help you do things you couldn't possibly have done if you try to do it manually. Joel: Are you more of a white label solution or direct to consumer? Recruiters, employers come directly to you and use your product or do people that provide services to employers use your backbone to power stuff on their stuff? Jon Krohn: Right. We have three different kinds of clients. We have big corporates, we have HR tech companies, and we have recruitment agencies, there are three types of client. And those three kinds of clients use us in different ways. The recruitment companies account for most of our clients. They have us, yes, create white label solutions where people come and use websites. And that could be candidates looking for jobs. It could be companies posting roles or it could be recruiters using a platform to use AI to scan databases of millions of their contacts to find the right people. And so in that case for the recruitment firms, it's a white labeled user interface powered by our algorithms. Jon Krohn: And the big corporates, they also use us in that same kind of way, primarily for mining their databases. These are companies, blue chip companies that everyone has heard of that have millions of applications a year. And so they need tools like ours to be able to sift through all those applications with something much more clever than a keyword search. For example, a microchip company that everyone knows, they use us and they did an internal study. They found that they could identify 21 times as many of the highest quality applicants from their databases as opposed to the keyword search that they were using previously. And then that final group, the HR tech companies, we work with them primarily to build algorithms exclusively, so back-end algorithms that can then plug into their existing tools. We will work with them to create custom solutions that allow them to automate aspects of their technology and then their engineers will be responsible for plugging things in and having that work with our algorithm that we built for them. Chad: Do you have a consumer facing model so that job seekers can come directly to you? Jon Krohn: Not anymore, no. Chad: Okay. What's the actual purpose of untapt? If you can kind of laser focus on where your discipline is, what's your mission? Jon Krohn: Our mission is to automate as many things as we can. We come from having that recruitment platform and so we specialize primarily in recruitment and human resources today. What we do within recruitment and human resources is expanding all the time. The kind of canonical algorithm that people are interested in from us is, I have a job profile, I'd like to find the best candidates for that job profile, so there's kind of job to candidate matching. But we also do candidate to candidate matching where you can say, "Hey, I have 20 great people on my staff. I'd like to find people just like them." And so we have an algorithm that can take as many profiles as you want, it could be one, it could be two, it could be twenty, 200, whatever. And then we can average that into a particular kind of person. And then we can scan across their applicant database of hundreds of thousands of people or whatever and sort from top to bottom. Hey, here's someone who is 98% like that average of those 20 people. Chad: Your CEO says that untapt has passed the Turing test. Can you explain that to our listeners? First and foremost, 1950s, Alan Turing, human versus computer. How do you guys know that you've actually passed the Turing test? Is there check boxes? What do you actually have to do to say, "We've passed the Turing test." Jon Krohn: Well, we haven't passed Alan Turing's Turing test. Alan Turing's Turing test would have us having a conversational AI, a chatbot that would be able to, you wouldn't be able to distinguish from another human. So you'd be talking to two different people or two different screens. One of them has a human behind it and the other one has a robot behind it. And if you can't tell the difference, then the algorithm has passed the Turing test. In our case, what we did is we've pitted our algorithms, which are identifying the appropriate people for roles and having them compete, having that algorithm compete against professional recruiters. Then we put the results from the machine, from our algorithm, and the results from the professional recruiters in an envelope. And then we have other recruiters from that same firm. Chad: In the results you're actually talking about candidates. So the results are actual candidates and you have candidates in two different envelopes, one fed from the computer, one fed from workers. Jon Krohn: Yeah, exactly. And ranked from best to worst for a given role. And then we have a judge come in who is outside the room as the recruiters worked, and the judge or judges try to tell which envelope was sorted by our machine versus by the people that work with them. And it just passed that Turing test every single time. Chad: Well, here's the quick ... I mean, here's the best question. How long did it take the machine to sort through how many different candidates versus how long did it take the humans to sort through those candidates to get to that list? Because getting to the list is one thing. It's the journey of getting there and being able to cut all that minutia bullshit. How long did it take to get there and how many candidates did they go through to actually get to the envelopes on the table? Jon Krohn: Yeah, Chad, I'm so glad that you asked that question. It takes about five minutes for our human recruiters per resume to figure out. If we give them six, it'll take them about half an hour to confidently sort six resumes for a given job. Whereas our algorithm can do millions a second. I mean, there's just no comparison. Joel: How long till you put all the recruiters out of business? Jon Krohn: Well, that isn't what we would do. We actually we're quite dependent on recruiters staying in business. And so what we're seeing is a shift from recruiters just manually sifting or just constantly, every time they get a new requisition saying, "Okay, I've got a new requisition, time to mine LinkedIn for people who will raise their hand when I look for the word Python or whatever." We're seeing a shift from recruiters doing that to saying, "Oh, we've already accumulated a database of hundreds of thousands of millions of people and right now all we're doing is keyword searching on it. Is there a more clever way that we could be mining this huge pool of data?" Chad: That we've paid for already. Jon Krohn: Yeah, exactly. That you've already put the time in. And then we can apply a number of different algorithms. We can say, "Okay, first of all, here's a job description. Let's find the top people for this job description from your million people. But on top of that, let's work with the people who are highly engaged. Let's work with the people who are looking right now for jobs as opposed to people who are passive and focus on those people first." So we have Joel: How do you know that from your database, just the freshness of it? Jon Krohn: Yeah. It depends on the database, but we have clients who have platforms where candidates can be regularly interacting. They might be receiving emails from the platform. Are they opening those emails? Are they clicking in those emails? Are they going into the platform and changing things in the platform? Are they making applications to any rules in the platform? There are lots of different ways that they could be engaging. There's lots of ways that they could be suggesting that they are currently looking for opportunities. Joel: How does AI solve the problem or can it to say, okay. I'm a business, I've been online taking online resumes for 20 years. Someone that applied in 2005 obviously has much more work experience now than they did in 2005, but so even though you can go back to that data point or that profile, it's pretty meaningless now, right? Or does AI have ways that it can, I guess, I don't know, forecast what that person is doing 10, 15 years from when they first applied. Talk about that. Jon Krohn: Yeah. We do actually do that kind of forecasting and we use that to help people figure out, if I'm at this point in my career, I'm a data analyst and I want to be a data scientist, what kinds of things do I need to be doing to be a data scientist? We can do that kind of forecasting. However, typically we don't do that for this job to candidate matching like you're describing. We've just baked in parameters around recency of the experience. We wouldn't want to make assumptions. It would be just too fuzzy. If somebody hasn't updated their resumes since 2005, they could just be dead. There's no Joel: That's kind of dark, Jon. Jon Krohn: Nobody ever does. I forgot that that changed now. But what I mean is there's ... anything could have happened to them after that point. Yeah, we could make guesses and that's what we can do that, we have models to do that. But we don't want to be doing that in situations like this. Recency is a factor, recency of experience is a factor in any of the matching that happens for a job to candidate matching. And to give you one more quick example of ways that these tools can be used. We have a big recruitment company based in LA uses us. They have hundreds of recruitment consultants working for them. We built a tool for them that works kind of like, you can think of it, something like the Facebook newsfeed where there's tiles that come up automatically. Jon Krohn: They show up in the morning and based on say yesterday they had somebody that they forwarded for a role was invited to interview with that role. What our algorithm then does overnight is it goes and looks and says, okay, Chad was invited for this role. Who is like Chad amongst the millions of people in our database, and who's also engaged right now. And then so we can grab those people and then have them show up in the recruiter's newsfeed the next morning. And that recruiter can say, "Oh yeah, this person is great for that role." They can very quickly, they can see these tiles show up on the screen that say, "Chad got this role yesterday. Here is someone else who's like that person." That kind of automation of the search where they don't even have to go actively look. We're pushing to them suggestions and then they can mark yes or no, and the algorithm gets smarter. It figures out the next day it can have even better suggestions and this has resulted in surprising things. Jon Krohn: The client has only been working with this for a couple of weeks. And I found out yesterday that they'd had their first successful placement where an offer had been made and the person had accepted the offer based on this kind of newsfeed pushing prospect of candidates to them. And the really interesting thing about the situation was that the recruiter, the consultant, when the suggestions were made said, "I wouldn't suggest these people for the role personally. The AI is suggesting with a very high confidence that these people would be good." And so he forwarded the top people and one of them got an offer and two others are interviewing right now. Chad: Okay. This jumps straight into, I'm reading Malcolm Gladwell's newest book Talking to Strangers and it is pretty much an ode to not trusting human decision making, which is pretty much what you were just talking about. He talked about how gut feel and our humanity really trigger bad decisions. Two questions, do you guys work off any of that science to be able to prove to companies that, hey look, let's get humans out of this decision making piece and allow the AI to do it. Number one, do you do that? And number two, how does that not scare the shit out of recruiters and hiring managers? I mean right out of the gate, whether you have it as kind of like an education piece or not, AI still scares mainly recruiters and sourcers. Do you have that kind of data and provide it and how do you not scare the actual human beings? Jon Krohn: With respect to that last point, from our perspective, we think that a human should be in the loop on these decisions. We like this idea of forwarding candidates like I just described, having those tiles and the newsfeed show up. I think that there is value. I think there's huge value and I think there will be for a long time for the foreseeable future, the human adds value. And they add value not only as a decision maker on whether the candidate should be forwarded for the role or not, but the piece that they're critical on and that we are absolutely, we are not going to have an AI that passes the actual Turing test for a long time. And so we need humans to be providing guidance to applicants and to be talking to clients and understanding what they're looking for. Jon Krohn: I mean clients so frequently, they don't want to take the time to produce the perfect job description that's going to get really good matches by an AI. They need a recruitment consultant to talk to them on the phone, hear what they're looking for and either figure out the job description for themselves or just have some sense in their head of what that job description is like. And so our tools make all of that easier, where the recruitment consultant now doesn't have to type out a job description after having been listening to their clients on the phone. They can say, "Ah, I know what kind of person they're looking for." Jon Krohn: And two weeks ago I talked to someone like that. They can go look up, okay, this was the person I talked to. And then they can use our AI to say, "Show me the people who are most like this person in my database." And then they can get the results and they can say, "Yeah, these two were what I was looking for. These three weren't. Okay, here's another one that is." And then the AI instantly goes back out and based on that immediate feedback can come back with even more precise results for what the person was looking for. Chad: But if the science and the algorithms are so advanced, why even put the recruiter in the mix in the first place? If you know what the hiring manager is looking for from a skill set standpoint, why not just go ahead and push them straight to the hiring manager? Jon Krohn: Yeah, it's possible, and so we do. Some of what we do is creating these fully automated platforms and that's what our business was up until early 2019, solely was making a platform that is automated in that way where the hiring manager sets up the job and you don't need a recruiter in the loop. But I think that the recruiter often adds value. They don't need to be there, different candidates are looking for different kinds of experiences, right? Some candidates would rather have the fully automated experience. They're used to using Uber and Seamless for getting their cars and food respectively. They want to be able to push buttons and see statistics and get things immediately and have results happening in a fully automated fashion. Jon Krohn: But other people, they want that human experience. They want to talk to someone on the phone and say, "Ah, this is what I have in my job right now. And I'm looking for something more like this and I don't know where to look." And so there's different people that are looking for different kinds of things. I think that there is a place for total automation and there are people that go with total automation, but I think that there's also a huge market still for humans to be involved on the emotional and social and conversational side of things in a way that an AI is not going to able to replace for years to come. Chad: I'm going to interject and say that's where the bad decisions are made, the feelings and the gut feel. Jon Krohn: Yeah. So I mean SFX: That is one big pile of shit. Jon Krohn: Yeah, but people love making bad decisions. I don't know. Chad: And they do though, but that's not good for business. Jon Krohn: Now, but so even in those circumstances, we can do things to help people make less bad decisions. Our algorithm is unbiased, we have applied for a Chad: Oh, here we go. Jon Krohn: Our algorithm is unbiased. We've rigorously tested it with large test data sets to confirm that it is, and a huge amount of our time is spent ensuring that it is. And so we applied for our first patent this summer, and that is on the bias free nature how we make our algorithm bias free in this way. And so that allows us to be making suggestions where we can be confident that there's no bias, that the recruitment consultant or the hiring manager is getting their suggestions in an unbiased order. And then if the user were to be completely biased in their decisions anyway, although we don't have any clients that do today, we could be flagging that. If the data are there, we could have algorithm. And some of our clients, we have corporate clients who use our algorithms and then they, after the fact, they do retrospective analysis, which they have been regularly carrying out for years to ensure that people of all genders, races and ages are getting a fair shot. Chad: Amazon killed its AI because it became extremely biased, right? Jon Krohn: It's recruitment AI, yeah. Chad: And this is, I mean this really from our standpoint presses the black box versus white box conversation from a regulatory standpoint. How would you defend, and I don't know that you would, but how would you defend that AI needs to stay black box knowing that people have to see how these decisions are made? And when I say people, I mean the companies, I mean regulators who are enforcing laws for organizations who are hiring and also receiving billions of dollars from the federal government. How can you defend black box AI versus white box? Jon Krohn: The problem typically with what you just called white box algorithms is that they're so simple that they can't do anything sophisticated. So a deep learning model like the ones that we use in production with our clients have tens of millions of different parameters that have been learned. So like the artificial neural network, this thing based on the way that biological brains work, it has been trained on hundreds of millions of data points in our case, hundreds of millions of decisions as to whether a given person should be invited to interview for a role or not. And so hundreds of millions of decisions gradually tuning tens of millions of parameters in this neural network. So that's why ... It's not a black box in the sense that you can't go and look at every single parameter, you absolutely can. There's nothing hidden. But the thing is that with 10 million parameters, there's so many ways that the results interact when you put in any given input the way that those inputs interact to produce an output is very complicated. Jon Krohn: And so it isn't that it's black. We can absolutely go in and look, it's just that it's complicated. And so we've developed tools and there are lots of companies that have developed tools that allow you to go and say, "Okay, the machine has given us a result. We'd like it to provide some guidance on why it came up with this result." And so we in particular have used those kinds of techniques to assess bias in particular to say, "Okay. If we change some of the language on this resume, so that it is a resume submitted by a female applicant as supposed to a male applicant, how does that change the results? How does the algorithm work differently with it?" It's by doing that kind of analysis that we are so confident that our algorithm doesn't have biases. Joel: Jon, thank you man. We appreciate it. For our listeners who don't know you or untapt, where should they go to find out more? Jon Krohn: Yeah. So you can check out untapt.com, U-N-T-A-P-T.com. We have lots of case studies there of things we've done that'll give you concrete examples of the kinds of applications that I've described. You can absolutely reach out to me, Jon@untapt.com. There's no H, J-O-N@U-N-T-A-P-T.com. And yeah, you can reach out on LinkedIn as well. And yeah, I'd love to talk to you about what you're thinking about. I'd love to hear about the data you have or the problem that you'd like to solve. And we would love to be the people that you work with to come up with a solution for creating the advanced model for doing it, as well as potentially the user interface around that model to have any of your users be able to use it in an easy way. Joel: Jon, thanks man. Chad: Thanks man. Joel: We appreciate it. We out. Chad: Deep Learning by Jon Krohn. We out. Chester: Thank you for listening to podcast with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipe for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out. #AI #ArtificialIntelligence #Matching #recruiting #Technology

When you want insights to big industry moves you go to the insiders. In this episode The Chad & Cheese are joined by phenom, Death Match Europe winner, and former CEO of newly acquired Opening.io, Andreea Wade. Andreea dragged along iCIMS' technical commander-in-chief Al "Witness Protection" Smith to discuss how Opening.io's team, vision, and tech will play into iCIMS' future. Enjoy this NEXXT exclusive. PODACST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides training and development to help your workplace leaders and employees integrate with and value people with disabilities. James Ellis: Hey, this is James Ellis from The Talent Cast Podcast, and you're listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. So perhaps treat this message like an intervention. Why are you doing this to yourself? You have so much to live for, why would you waste your time here of all places? Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Andreea. Yo, what's up everybody? This is The Chad and Cheese Podcast, I'm your co-host Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad, I love matching, Sowash. Joel: It's a Monday, so we're just waking up from a beautiful weekend, here in the Midwest. We are happy to be joined today by newly acquired, Opening.io founder, Andreea Wade, but currently potfolio director of AI and machine learning, I hope I got that right it's a new title, and iCIMS's CTO, Al Smith. Guys, girls, welcome to the show. Andreea: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Chad: So, Al's a part of the witness ... Just so we get into this real quick, Al's a part of the witness protection program, hence his name Al Smith, very simple, hard to find, there are so many of them, right? Yeah. Al: It's actually based on what I'm capable of remembering, and it's a name I can't remember. Joel: Speaking of preppers. Chad: Joel just mentioned Andreea, that you are the AI, ML portfolio manager. Okay. So, what the hell does that mean? What do you do? Is this new? Is this something entirely new? Or has iCIMS had this for a while? Andreea: So the role of portfolio director, it's something that iCIMS had for a while for various different areas of their business, and I know that I will be able to give a better answer in relation to that. My role, you kind of know what we did. We're very much, we always were an R&D labs company. So we want to continue to do more of that. We want to grow and build iCIMS Talent Logic. And then we want to further imagine the future. So we'll just keep R&Ding here, and doing loads of cool stuff. Al: Yeah. Look, I'll piggyback on that. Our portfolio directors kind of own the business strategy and the investment strategy for particular space for us. And so broadly, we participate with solutions in a variety of different parts of the market. We ask the portfolio directors to understand how big that is, who's the competition, how much could we address, how much to invest and what would we bring to market when, and set out a vision of what that kind of value is, and the solution is. And then product managers, paired with an engineering manager, bring those products to market. So in many ways, consistent with Andreea, was doing as the co-founder for Opening. So, I feel like it's a pretty good fit. Joel: A lot of our listeners don't know Opening, don't know the genesis of it, it was founded in 2015. And Andreea, you're a marketing media person, how in the hell did you get into this business, in machine learning and AI back in 2015? Andreea: Yeah. No background in the industry, but we felt it. We were candidates and hiring managers and this was to become my fourth company, I guess. And I used to be a journalist, and I used to be a product manager, and I had a branding company and all these kinds of things. But there was one, I guess it ... Everything came together by my passion of just, without a focus and an agenda, of bringing good people together. I used to just, because I get involved and I got involved in a lot of the tech scene here, I ended up being the person who nearly knew everyone and I would just match people together. I would go, "What are you trying to do? Talk to that person," and so on. And 2015 comes, and I get very, very interested at that stage, I had another company. I get very interested in data and AI and ML. And I started talking to my cofounder, Adrian, who just moved here, in Ireland. I've been here 18 years and he moved here then. And as product people, as data people, as a process that he just went through at that stage and something that I felt as a person who was hiring people, we started looking at the industry. And we started playing with classical machine learning, it was weekends and afternoons. And just for about eight, nine months, we looked around at this industry that we're completely clueless around. But the vision from day one was surely there has to be a better way for someone to understand my CV. Chad: So it is interesting because your background is not in this industry. Why do you think you succeeded where all of these other industry insiders generally really just have to eject? Joel: Yeah. And by the way, the matching space, a little bit crowded. Andreea: Yes. Yes. But we were naive and clueless and we had a vision. Right? And you don't ... If you want to start something and go, "Ah, these are all ..." You can very quickly find all the reasons why you shouldn't. Right? So we had questions. And I think the key, like when you were asking me this question, the key was that we had the questions and we asked as many people as possible from all sides of industry, talked to job boards, talked to ATS's, talked to CRM's, talked to recruitment agencies, talked to RPM's, talked to everyone who would give me half an hour, or be it Adrian, or whatever. We literally ... Because we felt we were so self conscious that we did not know, and maybe understand this industry, that we just continuously learn. And we asked everyone the same question 50 times. And I think that was really key because we try to understand that. And then what we did have was, we were pretty good product people. And we imagine things in ways that we saw good product being built, but not in this industry. Like literally good product being built. Chad: Yeah. And I'd like to say, just what I've seen from you guys and watching you through this time frame, you had amazing focus as well. It didn't seem like you guys were looking to pivot five or six different times to try to "re-invent". So, your discipline seemed to be there where in most cases, most of those companies coming in and startups, they just don't have that discipline. Joel: Yes. The company that they were during Death Match a year ago, is the same company that they are today. And I'll put a plug in there that she was a Death Match winner, because that's always awesome. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Andreea, you've spoken it a lot ... You have a tight relationship with Microsoft, I believe you're using their AI, their translation products and others, want to ask you about that relationship and what it's meant? And how that might segue with iCIMS's recent integration with Microsoft? And how maybe all of these worlds are colliding for a future acquisition? Andreea: For us? Joel: Yeah. I got that in there. Andreea: I'm just going to talk from my perspective and then I'll let Al add to it. Look, for us it was really important, and I guess from day one ... We're in Ireland, and Ireland is small, and Microsoft had a really cool team on the ground that was talking to startups. And these two guys, I'm not even in my Opening role, I'm kind of mentoring at a hackathon and go away, and I get approached by these guys and they go, "We're here to support this hackathon and we're from Microsoft and we want to do all these things. And I know that you're here as a mentor, but I'm curious about what you're building." And long story short, we meet at different events and they go, "We really, really, really want to support you." And I have to say that the way that they have ... And at the same time, we were talking to various different other large corporates as well, that had these startup initiatives. But Microsoft felt real for many reasons. And it wasn't just, use this technology to do A, B and C, it was more, let us talk about you, what can we do for you? Let us put together a few videos. Let us support you with marketing. Let us sell you. All this, and it just felt very real. Joel: Wow. Okay. Andreea: And it just felt like they knew what they were doing and their approach was legit. We got to meet Peggy Johnson. Peggy Johnson who bought LinkedIn for Microsoft, about a couple of years ago, came to Ireland, because Microsoft has in Ireland, their first building that they own outside of the US. And Peggy Johnson came over and, our Taoiseach, the prime minister here in Ireland, our Taoiseach was there and they were talking. And then the MD of Microsoft here picked four AI startups to meet Peggy. And we had an hour with her. So we had various different supports that went outside of Ireland [Inaudible 00:09:52.13] and it was real and legit. And so coming together with iCIMS, I've learned, when I first met iCIMS in 2017, I think it was a week after I got to meet them in the States, was when they announced that Microsoft is a client. The announcements in the last month or so and our talks pre-acquisition, it just seemed that there was a common vision there as well with what we're trying to do. But I'll let Al explain more what iCIMS and Microsoft are doing. And we still have our network and we're working really hard to do more with them. Al: Look, I'll take a swag at this. So I think you guys know Microsoft's been an important customer of ours for years, and we've been always trying to look for opportunities and when our customers have parts of their business that overlap or channel to try to go to market together. And that's why the dynamics, acquisition or integration made a lot of sense, and working with them. And you guys also know that we've been on a hunt to make sure that our talent solutions integrate with all the best HCM's, and also to make sure that we're a platform of choice as the HCM to actually address customers that have serious talent needs. So that that's kind of enough to think about it. But as Andreea said, when I first met Opening and learned about how they've approached the problem set ... I think both of you, we've probably had a couple of meetings over the last couple of years, talking about AI and ML, and I've been a pretty big fan of saying, "Look, it's an early market, let's not just go rush in." I want to get in to make sure that as we build things they're explainable, it's transparent, it's human led. Al: The idea that it should help you with context to a set of decisions you're doing, yes, it can set up some automations for you, but it shouldn't be this black box just being here as the answer. One, there's all kinds of reasons why you may not have the right answer, number one. Number two, when we get into, and I think this is something you all know, iCIMS has always been really careful around data privacy and security and compliance, and the black box model just doesn't work. And when we met Andreea and Adrian, we just saw a company that had focused on building, not just a bunch of algorithms but a platform, and a platform that actually strove to deliver the explainability and the transparency around the decisions and going past just match. And that's some of the stuff that really got us excited thinking about the future. Match is great, don't get me wrong, but there's so much more past that. Chad: We did notice the Freudian slip, you said acquisition there, Al. We're talking about Microsoft SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: Microsoft and iCIMS, just so that you knew that we caught that. Al, I'm a big fan of the prospect and we have talked about AI and ML over the years and matching. And I remember in Arizona at iCIMS Influence, late last year, I spoke with a few of iCIMS leaders, and you guys talked about a "Jibe matching engine", what happened to that? This was interesting, and it was really great to see that you guys obviously going through the acquisition process with Opening, but were there a lot of, kind of skunkworks things happening at iCIMS? And then you just thought, hell, we just need to go out and buy this. Al: Actually, it's a continuity, right? So Opening had actually landed Jibe as a customer, and part of a Jibe matching engine used some of Opening's technology. And that was actually how we got the introduction. So the good news is the continuity goes all the way through. Now, there's other technology that sits around that we do believe that right now, the way these different models get developed and different algorithms get trained, that just relying on a single solution, doesn't always give you the best outcome. And so we've taken this kind of ensemble strategy on search/match problems, where we feed a set of data into three different models simultaneously, one of those obviously is Opening, and then look at how well the model gives you a result set and serve up the best fit for the situation. Chad: It's like a bake-off, right? Al: Almost. The one thing I think that got us really excited about Opening's technology is, they do a fantastic job when there's sparse data. I have just a little bit of data, maybe it's from an application, they're only bits of data, I don't have a full CV or something else. Some of the other technology models that we use can do a good job when they're doing their lower level parsing, when there is a lot of data. But, so many of the industries iCIMS serves, that data isn't rich and deep about the candidates that you're trying to find. And we love the balance that that brings to a full solution. Always gets us excited. And then by the way, you guys, I think this is very consistent in what we discussed last fall. Announcer: We'll get back to the interview in a minute, but first we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt. Joel: What kinds of companies should be leveraging programmatic? Andy Katz: Every Fortune 1000 company have to, anybody with extreme volume of jobs. You're recruiting for 20 positions a year, you don't need programmatic. You can go to a recruitment marketing agency or a job board and do a direct email with your company only you're not in with another 20 companies in a job alert, or you're not just on a career site or a job board. You can do banner advertising, buy premium placements. So where programmatic again, is one piece of the puzzle, it's not going to ever be the end or be all. And I do believe all the programmatic platforms out there have ancillary services to support that, knowing that you can't just survive on a one trick pony. Announcer: For more information, go to hiring.nexxt.com. Remember, that's Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. hiring.nexxt.com Joel: Curious question for both of you, I guess, brand architecture, when you guys typically acquire a company, whether it be TextRecruit, Jibe, et cetera, they tend to be sort of standalone brands for a while, and then they eventually get sort of sucked in, I guess, to the iCIMS brand. I noticed that Andreea is no longer associated with Opening in terms of her title. What's going to happen to the Opening brand? Are there integrations out there with other services that will be impacted by a brand change if there is going to be one? Talk about the future of the brand and how it's going to integrate with iCIMS, if at all. Al: Great question. So a couple of things, one is, those different acquisitions that we've done have had different contexts. When we did TextRecruit, the actual plan was to leave them independent for a very long period of time. For a variety of reasons. One was, we were trying to explore how we bring customers into the portfolio in a standalone sale, and then cross sell all the products to them as a solution. With Jibe, it was a much quicker, the Jibe employees became iCIMS employees day one, and we moved pretty quickly to incorporate it into the portfolio as our recruitment marketing suite. I think with Opening, we're moving even faster. It's a different sale and what Andreea and Adrian were doing themselves to other people who were embedding their technology, we'll continue to support that and offer that. But right away, what we thought would add the most velocity was giving brand to the solution. And so we chose iCIMS Talent Logic as the brand name from day one, and literally announced the acquisition with the brand name of the product suite that the technology is delivering on. And we thought, honestly, it's part of us just learning how to do that better, and it kind of speeds the time for everybody to just be able to understand where it fits and how it brings value. Chad: I want into jump into something that you said a little bit earlier, Al. Opening.io, or now iCIMS Talent Logic can do better matching with less information. And from the website, it says, "Accurately match candidates with relevant roles." I would assume that you both agree that job descriptions still suck. Dude, can I get a yes or amen from you? Al: Yeah. Andreea: Yes. Chad: Okay. SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: So if you're working on garbage data, and it's garbage in, garbage out, how do you make something good out of that? Because we've been trying to get the industry to move toward better data, better job descriptions, and they still suck. And you have to churn off of that data, how do you make that work? Al: I'll take a stab at it, then Andrea, maybe I'll hand off to you. But a couple of things that really appealed to us, and not to get too far out there, but I think you guys have been following our industry for a very long time, much longer than myself, it is very obvious. I joined the iCIMS five years ago and I was new to the industry, it largely looks like an automation of a paper process that relies on an awful lot of subjective decision making with very little context. And Andrea made a reference to the point that ... And Adrian's personal experience that kind of spurred this whole thing was, he applied it to a company, didn't get anywhere, months later went to a head hunter who placed him very highly in the company, and they hire him and they're delighted about it at their own cost, right? And it's the ultimate, hey, what's wrong with this process? Kind of thing. Al: So we're going to try to use the technology that they've developed and we're building and continuing to invest in, around making a shift as opposed to a lousy job description to a very poorly fit and exact key words matches, and then the magic of somebody years of experience to have a feel about this candidate. Look, that can work at small scale and in certain industries, but on large scale, it falls apart. What we're really looking to do is help with better job descriptions. Help with understanding what does a good performer look like in this job today? What are the kinds of successes and derived experiences that they have? Use some of that when you're looking for people that, "Hey, I really like Chad. I really do. But I'd like four more Chads." I'm sorry, Joel. Yeah, I had to go there. If I was looking for four more Chads, what is it that I'm looking for when somebody comes to apply for something? So we see the ability to use the technology that Andreea and Adrian put together here as a start that we start going from candidate search to role fit, kind of moving, these are subtle statements, but moving from just a search, enterprise search to talent discovery. You may have the people you need right in your company. So a lot of exciting things that we're looking at what comes next. Andreea: Yeah, absolutely. Now, if we can add here two things. We already have tech like skill extraction and skill recommendation technology. So run this job through the engine, we'll pick out three skills and we will tell you, "Why don't you add in another 10 or 15 or 20 skills," but also ... And we have this, right? And it's in production, and it can be used to enrich both resumes or poor job descriptions. But to go back to Al's point around our tech working on very small bits, pieces of data, this is because we don't just look at what you give us. We look at it in the context of everything else. So if you tell us, "I'm hiring for this," we will immediately link that with the universe of skills that we have. And we go, "Hey, this is what we think you're asking us." Right? And it's really, the example that I can give, as asking me, telling me that you have a headache and me telling you to take a pill or taking an aspirin. Or asking a doctor, telling a doctor that you have a headache, and she will immediately probably tell you 50 things that you might have because she studied for many, many years. And our engine has studied and understands when you say, "Blah," it goes, "I think it can mean all these things." Andreea: But absolutely, really good question. And that's something that we learned as we were discovering this process. You can't search with this data, it means nothing. And we even went ... And I'll just say this, and then I'll stop talking about this. Actually, we put poorly put together job descriptions or very vague job ads or job descriptions back in front of recruiters that they were hiring for those roles, and we asked them, we hid the title, but we left everything else, and we said, "Tell us, what is this for?" And they couldn't tell us. Chad: Big surprise. Right? So, Al, yes, obviously everybody wants four Chads. But the problem there is that humans are bias, and four Chads means I just hired four white dudes. Right? We talk about AI, we talk about bias, how can Talent Logic, or how can the new tech today, broad scope, actually focus on being unbiased when you're using all this biased human data? It's all historical, it's all things that we've done before, but it's all laden with bias. How do you get through that? Al: Thanks for bringing this one up. This is so important to us. Probably never more so than what's going on in the world today. I think a couple things when we stand back and look at the problem, I personally think we're approaching it from the wrong direction as an industry. We keep talking, you just used the words, how do we avoid the bias? How do we avoid the bias? Look, there are some things we should be very careful with when we train algorithms with data, around what we think the likely outcome is going to be. Because these algorithms, at the end of the day are all designed for effectiveness and efficiency and do more of what you ask it to do. And so I think some of the big, very visible, very big blow ups around having things trying to match and having an unexpected bias shouldn't be a shocking because, whether it's in your data, whether it's in your process steps, whether it's in other things that were unintentionally included, I think this is what algorithms will always kind of bring to the surface. Al: I want to kind of flip the thought on its head. I think when I go out and talk to CHRO's and the heads of talent, the first conversation is, if you're trying to build a winning workforce made up of diversity and inclusion, and every business study did says the more diverse, the more inclusive your workforce is, the more likely you're going to be a successful company. The first starting point is, how diverse is your workforce? And do you have the tool to help you figure that out? We think we have the basis of some of that capability of what the Opening team has brought us, to help you, first of all, assess that. We have a fair number of our customers who keep all their existing employees in the ATS as a function of, the best next employee might be in existing employee. And so helping understand how diverse your current workforce is, and then looking where you may be out of balance of what your goals might be. Can I use this technology to then go address the gaps, address the weaknesses and have it help me do that in a more automated fashion, so that the outcome I'm trying to get to is actually one of the model that I think fits the business, the company I'm trying to run? I think there, the technology can be excellent. And it's because you're using the converse, which is, go find me folks that match this. Al: And again, with [Inaudible 00:26:13.19] data, we can do a really thorough, these folks might be those people, let's consider them. While in the past, you might not have, because it was a knockout. I know many of our customers talk about knockout questions. How about you think about the other way and what are the inclusive questions? And then how do you get a representative pool of what it is you think the outcome looks to be? So those are some of the ways we're looking to do in a differently and how we go forward. Joel: This one's a for Andreea, I'll let you guys, let you out on this one. I'm going to assume that you had more than one company in the running to buy or acquire Opening. Just the fact that you won Death Match meant that you had a flood of suitors trying to buy the company. Chad: Oh yeah. Easily. Joel: What was it about iCIMS that really drew you to the organization? The people, the opportunity. Why iCIMS out of the mini suitors that I'm sure you had? Andreea: Why iCIMS? Period. Well Joel: And you're taking too long to answer. Al: I can put my fingers in my ears. Andreea: For many reasons. Right? And some of them are stories that I've told internally to our new iCIMS colleagues, in the first couple of weeks of us being part of the company. And it's a story that started, as we kind of touched on a few minutes ago, with us integrating with Jibe as well, with really liking Jibe and the people in Jibe. Just feeling that we've made new friends in the industry and good people and allies and partners that we can count on. When they, were acquired, we literally celebrated. And I actually don't think I've said this to Al or anyone, we were so happy for Jibe, and I've actually said to Adrian that, "Why are we so happy? Feels like we got acquired." So that was kind of ... And it was a road of, we saw a company that saw us. Because there was a lot of noise in the industry, and as you guys said as well, there were so many players with a matching. But we knew why we were good and we knew what we had, and we were waiting in a way for that home, for everything that we built. So we found a company that saw us. We found people that we really, really like. We saw that ambition and that really exciting, where is this goal and a goal next, which I am really excited about. And then we already had people in there that we knew and that we liked, and that liked us. And I guess, the vision and where the company is going next, then how, that was very, very exciting for both me and Adrian and also for the team. Chad: Well, Andreea, I have to say that when you do visit iCIMS or they visit you, any of those friends, you'd better be wearing that chain of champions. Okay? Because that's ... Andreea: Yes Chad. Chad: Al and Andrea, thank you so much for giving us your time. If people want to find out more about iCIMS Talent, Logic, although AKA Opening.io, now iCIMS Talent Logic, where would you send them? Al: Yeah. Real easy. It's www.icims.com, and you'll find it right on page. Chad: Excellent guys. Joel: And with that, we out. Chad: We out. Andreea: We out. Outro: This has been The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome.

Time to Consider Strippers as Essential Workers? Thirty million Americans have filed for unemployment since the country's been in lockdown. So how's your week going? The boys continue to cover all the recruiting news that matters, including: - Layoffs at Jobvite - Google and Facebook start paying for content - Microsoft Teams killing it - Amazon still behaving badly - and even drive-thru strip clubs. Oh, and UFOs ... not employment-related, but quarantine means we just don't care anymore. Enjoy this week's show, brought to you by JobAdx, Sovren, and Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides comprehensive website accessibility testing with personalized recommendations to enhance usability for people with a variety of disabilities or situational limitations. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: All right. All right. All right, everybody. Unemployment claims top 30 million in the US this week. So how are things with you? Welcome to The Chad and Cheese podcast, my quarantine friends, I'm your cohost, Joel, Stir crazy, it's not just a movie starring Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder, Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad, I am sick of this shit, Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, more industry layoffs. SFX: Layoffs? Joel: Amazon keeps sticking it to the working folks, and drive-through strip clubs. Yeah, you heard that right. Chad: Excuse me. Joel: Stick around to find out more after this word from our sponsor. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent, text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while canvas bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: You know who is texting at the speed of talent? Everybody who was in the NFL draft, all those guys had their phones all up in their mugs. Joel: What a weird viewing situation. I was watching with my dad who's in Austin Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative). Joel: He knew it before I heard it. I had to tell my dad, "Just shut the hell up for 15 seconds after you know who it is." And then you could tell that the players didn't know when they announced it to the world because they had a time, little lapse there. It was just a weird thing, I didn't like it too much. Chad: Yeah. No, it was weird. Let's just put it that way. And they, apparently were using Microsoft Teams for that. That was interesting. I had a really hard time being at Ohio State Buck, I had a hard time knowing that the Colts could have picked up J.K. Dobbins, but they picked up Jonathan Taylor instead, which I thought was a mistake, but I wasn't mad because then J.K., all day got picked up by the Ravens, a running powerhouse team and I'm not incredibly mad about that. Joel: I was really, really excited to see Dobbins go to the AFC North where he will punish the Cleveland Browns for the next 10 to 12 years. That was nice. We passed on Malik at the linebacker position, I think in the third round and took some bomb from LSU. What are you going to do? I was fairly happy with the first-round pick, offensive line guy from Alabama Chad: Yes. He was legit. Joel: 3000 pounds, 628 feet tall. I was okay with that. But will we have football? Is the question. Chad: Yeah, we'll have football. We will have football in some form. Joel: Did you see they're talking about college in the spring? Wouldn't that be wild? Chad: That would be crazy. That would be crazy. I got to say though, Philly was hating big on Jalen Hurts. Joel: Yeah. Carson Wentz, the chances of him getting hurt is like 99.9%. So to have a backup, that's competent, seems like a good decision to me, but who knows? The Bengals let Andy Dalton go today, curious to see where he ends up. Chad: The first three picks, Joe Burrow, remember, was sitting on the bench at Ohio State. He was a part of the Ohio State program. Then number two, Chase, and that means number two and three, one, two, three, all pretty much Ohio State guys. Pretty awesome. Joel: Yeah. Although I think 40% of the first round were SEC guys. Yeah. Remember when USC used to have guys drafted? That seems like forever ago. Chad: Yeah. That was the day. I think they had one guy go in the first round. Joel: And if you're just tuning in, this is the Chad and Cheese Football Podcast brought to you today by Gatorade. Chad: Well, that being said, let's just go ahead and pivot really quick. I have a personal show recommendation, knowing that we're still all quarantining and we're looking for things to watch. This show called Counterpart with J.K. Simmons, that dude is an amazing actor. It's on Prime and we just started watching season two, there's two seasons of it. Here's a little background, no spoilers. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Our world splits into like two mirror-like worlds, with one pathway between the two. They're pretty much exactly the same until world number two gets hit by a pandemic that kills 7% of the population. Yeah. So then there's friction between the two worlds as they become vastly different. Spy games happen, diplomacy, mercenaries and a bunch of other really cool shit. The thing that really stuck with me is that Julia and I actually just started watching this, the whole pandemic thing, this is a 2017 show. It's like for shadowing some of the things that you and I have been talking about, as will you be wearing masks? Will we be wearing mask? How will post-COVID look? That kind of thing. It was interesting. Joel: Yeah. Interesting. Well, if you're going to throw out a show in quarantine times, I'm going to throw out Too Hot to Handle, because I threw out, Love is Blind, I'm in a dating like wormhole. But have you heard about this show? Chad: Dude, you are like trash TV. Joel: Yeah, I know. I know. It's bad. It's bad. But it's the only thing that makes me not throw my kid out the window. This show is basically, it's just really hot, young, horny people on this resort. And if they do physical stuff, they get deducted from $100,000 pool of money. So basically if you kiss, money gets deducted, if you have heavy petting, money deducted and you get the idea of the show. It's pretty amusing, pretty good mindless entertainment if you need to just get away from all the misery of today. Chad: Well, I'm going to throw something at you real quick. Have you downloaded the Quibi app? Joel: No, but my wife has. Chad: Okay. Joel: I ask her every day, "Have you watched something on Quibi yet?" And she goes, "No." Chad: Yes. I have. Joel: Okay. Chad: It's this new app from Jeffrey Katzenberg. It's a new content play and it's really cool, it's all optimized for your phone, it's not something that you can cast to a big screen or anything like that. And the shows, the episodes are like 10 minutes long. So they're like quick chunks. If you just want to take 10 minutes out of the day, watch the next episode, get back to work, that kind of thing. It's actually pretty cool. I've watched tons of stuff on it. It's got some really good content. Joel: So it's like $4.99 a month after a three month window or is it more expensive than that? Chad: I think it's like five bucks. I can't remember. But yeah, for 90 days it's free. Joel: So you're a buyer, once it's paid, you're going to continue to pay for Quibi? Chad: It's a possibility. It depends on how much content I burn through. Joel: And there are so many, so many options. I'm seeing Peacock ads now, I got HBO on steroids coming out. We're all going to end up paying like four or five times more than what we paid when it was all in bulk from direct TV. Chad: You know what was free though? The humans at Work Film Festival that we just enjoyed yesterday. Joel: Oh, that's right. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. So our friends at Skill Scout, they put on this really cool film festival. Tom Ellis and Elena Valentine were MC-ing. It was really cool. It was short videos around the world at work. Did you guys get a chance to watch? Joel: I caught a few of the episodes. Essentially Skill Scout does videos, so these were really well made. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Like short little documentaries about people at work and courageous things they've done or what. To me, the one that I saw that was most impactful was the 911 call Chad: Oh, yes. Joel: From Australia or wherever it was, and the mom is screaming. I know it was acted, but it was based on a real 911 call. That was really cool. And the other thing that stood out to me was the chat room. People were incredibly active. Chad: Yes. Joel: And people have bleeding hearts, man. This is like people love this shit. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: People just soak up the love and the feels, and clearly this was something people needed. That was very evident in the chat room when I was watching. Chad: Yes. And great content. Definitely, that was my favorite, it was called The Operator, I believe. It sounded to me like she was Irish, but we'll let that one go. Overall, that really was impactful. Joel: She wasn't American. But we had one American on Death Match this last round, and three UK guys. The format was virtual, let's talk about that first. What do you think about the virtual Death Match versus the in person? Chad: I like anything in person overall, but in this case content's content. I enjoyed it. I thought it was fun. I think we have to do some things around making sure that video doesn't lag and those types of things. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: But overall, it was a blast. Sitting here drinking beer, watching Craig Rhoads in England drinking his beer, and you drinking yours, and then we're just smashing somebody. It was a blast, I really enjoyed it either way. Would I've rather been on stage? Yeah. But did I have fun? Oh, fuck yeah! I did. Joel: Yeah. And Craig was drinking Budweiser, which pretty means he has to turn in his Union Jack membership card. I will second the beer on demand, with my fridge a few feet away. And you can't beat flaming hot Cheetos, when the snack urge hits you during a Death Match. So I did enjoy that. Shout out to our participants. Chad: Yes. Joel: Cloud RPO, Optimal, I've been calling them Get-Optimal because that's their domain Chad: Okay. Joel: Daniel Fellows. We had JobSync, who ended up winning the competition, Alex Murphy, shout out to him, very well played my friend. And a site I hadn't heard of until you talked about them, SonicJobs. And since Death Match, I've seen them in the news like three or four times. So they're clearly making things happen as well. Chad: Yeah. They didn't win, but I tell you what? It was razor thin. I think what we've seen with AMS pushing out hourly, this is something that is very close to that. I think there is a huge market for what they are doing. SFX: Hell yeah. Joel: Yup. Smart people, all companies, and it was tough. But again, Alex Murphy, JobSync, the champion chain is on its way. Well, actually I don't know, are post offices open open now? Chad: Oh yes. Joel: I've got to figure out how to get that thing to him. Chad: Yeah, you got to get out of your house first. That's the thing. Joel: The thing is how many sex toys do I put in there with champion of chain? Chad: Depends on how much room you have. Joel: Yeah. Chad: [Dennis Tupper[00:12:19.20]] actualy sent me a box with a book called MindFuck, the Cambridge Analytica story about the plot to break America. The election's coming and I feel like Dennis wants me into more of a rant mode. Thanks Dennis, I've already started chewing on the book a little bit. Appreciate it, man. A couple of cool tools from a couple of cool tools. See what I did there? Ivan Stojanovic, he's got some new tech out there called MyRobot. It's this lead generation solution that's really cool. It converts your connections to engage audience. You can use it through LinkedIn. And then another one that I've mentioned before, but I use every single damn day, it's called Paiger, P-A-I-G-E-R.co. That's Kelly Robinson and Allistair over there messing around with the tech. But it's content engagement, and dude, I love it. It sends stories to my mobile phone via text. All I have to do is say yes, no, update and it blasts out to my network. It's really cool tools, check them out. MyRobot, myrobot.works and then paiger.co. Those guys are doing some cool stuff. Joel: Yeah. I did try to download MyRobot because I researched for the show, obviously. And for some reason it had my email, my email was in the system, but then I tried to log in with that email with my common password and couldn't and then ... So it may be a little bit buggy or maybe I need to do it on my desktop. I don't know. But it certainly sounds interesting. Ivan, he's the guy behind it, right? The Irish Russian guy. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Long time listener. Joel: Ivan McGregor or whatever his name is. So I'll be sure to check that out. Chad: Events. Joel: Or do we want to shout out to Terry Baker? [Crosstalk [00:14:24.10] Chad: Oh yeah. Get a shout out to Terry Baker. Joel: Terry Baker, correct me if I get this wrong, but apparently they did a survey at PandoLogic. They have Zoom meetings there and they have special guests come in, and they had a little vote to say, "Who would we like to come in and say hi from the industry? And you and I were on top of the list, I guess, or somewhere in the list. So Terry said, "Hey, if I ship you guys a little bit of liquor, would you come on on a Zoom to talk to the folks?" And who are we to say no to the people? So Terry Baker, I got mine, Wednesday, I think, a Baker's bourbon and a case of beer. Chad: Nice. Joel: It looks like you're going to pick yours up today or tomorrow, so you have for the weekend. But yeah, we'll be talking to Pando here in the next couple of days or weeks, to say hi and get drunk probably. Chad: To say hi, yes. And pretty much everything that we're doing from an event standpoint right now sponsored by Shaker Recruitment Marketing Joel: That's right. Chad: ... Is virtual. It actually makes it so much easier. You don't have to travel, you can have your bourbon with you, like you said, you can have your fridge right there. Right? It just all makes it easier. But that being said, thanks again to Shaker Recruitment Marketing. I just saw that Mike Temkin, this is his 32nd anniversary at Shaker. Joel: Damn. Chad: Holy shit. Joel: How many generations of Shaker's does that encompass? At least two, right? Chad: That's a very good question. We're going to have to dig up our Mike Temkin interview and share it. Joel: We got to check out Mike Temkin Wikipedia page to see exactly how long he's been there at Shaker. Chad: Oh. We've got another Death Match coming up. Death Match North America. SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: May 19th. Joel: That's right. Chad: Yeah, dude. We're turning up the heat on startups again already. We're currently deliberating on the four startups that we're choosing and we'll get an announcement out sometime very soon. Joel: Can we name the two that are definitely, I think going to be involved? Chad: Sure. Joel: Up the chart, our buddy Adam Chambers, our favorite Irish man living in Mexico, I think he's still in Mexico. Chad: Yes. Joel: He did a Firing Squad, he's going to be on. And our buddies at Rectxt, Brian and Brad, who we've broken spicy Nashville hot chicken with in the past, they're going to be on Death Match. So Canada versus Mexico at this point for North American supremacy. We're so global, dude. Chad: Yeah. The North American version of Death Match is supported by Joveo, programmatic excellence on a stick. There are three ways to get tickets. Joel: On a stick. Chad: On a stick. Yeah. You like that, right? There are three ways to get tickets. Number one, if you're in corporate HR talent acquisition, you can get them or staffing an RPO, you can register for free. If you're a TAtech member, you can register for free. If you're a nonmember organization, you can go and for a slight price, you can also register. But definitely check it out at tatech.org. Joel: Now of the news. SFX: To the news. Joel: All right. We got layoffs, let's hear it. SFX: Lay offs. Lay offs. Joel: All right. Came across the wire this week that Talemetry, listeners will remember that they were acquired by Jobvite by late last year, had gone through layoffs. So I called our new good buddy, Jeff Rohrs, newly minted CMO there at Jobvite and former Costa Clevelander, which you got to love that, right? Anyway, called him up for some clarity. 8% of the company saw layoffs, which encompasses about 26 folks at the company. There are no further plans for reduction. This is mostly a COVID-19 situation, according to Jeff. The technology team was not touched during this transition. And he was really quick to point out that Talemetry is not a company, it's a product of Jobvite. So to say that Talemetry had layoffs is incorrect. Chad: Is incorrect. Joel: Jobvite had layoffs. I assume some of the folks at Talemetry, although he wasn't specific, maybe saw the pink slip come in, unfortunately for them. Chad: Got you. So was the Talemetry product team, is that the only part of Jobvite that saw this, on the layoffs? Joel: He wasn't real specific. Chad: Okay. Joel: He did say that tech wasn't touched. Most of the folks that were touched were in the sales arena. Chad: Yeah. That's been the line that we've seen thus far with layoffs is that, not all, but very heavily in sales and customer service. Joel: Yup. And that seems to be the case here as well. Chad: And on our way to non lay off news, Google and Facebook looking to share revenues. This is a article out of The Guardian. In December, the federal government asked the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission to develop a code between media companies and digital platforms including Google and Facebook. The "code" was to require the companies to negotiate in good faith on how to pay news media for use of their content, advise new media in advance of algorithm changes that would affect content rankings and favor original source news content and search page results instead of everybody's other duplicated shit. Right? So this is really interesting because a nation, the nation of Australia is saying, "Okay Google and Facebook, you are actually getting rich off of somebody else's content. So therefore, in this new economy, you need to start paying them." Joel: So how do we feel about this, Chad? Chad: I like it. Because without content, what's really driving engagement today anyway? Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Especially on Facebook. This is the type of content that is driving engagement on Facebook. Good, bad and different, doesn't matter. This is what's driving us to go to Facebook more often. Joel: The journalism profession is such extremes, because on one end you have more information than ever before, obviously more bad information than ever before, but you have more information than ever before. Right? Like us having a podcast, we couldn't have done that 30 years ago, right? Chad: Right. Joel: Nobody or radio station in the world would have let us come on to talk about this shit. And that, that goes for every industry in the world, right? People have access to more information than ever before. Good journalism is still thriving, surprisingly. Right? Like the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune, organizations around the world are still thriving. To force Google and Facebook to pay, I don't know where you draw the line, like I understand that the Indianapolis Star, right? Or The Republic in Columbus, should they get money? Should the little, new Palestine paper get money from Facebook and Google. I don't know where you draw the line and there's probably going to be lawsuits if Google doesn't pay those folks, or Facebook doesn't. If I'm a well known blogger, should I get money from Facebook? If our blog is awesome, or our podcast is awesome, should we start getting money from Facebook? I just don't know where you draw the line. And part of me thinks that local news and the newspaper should be thought of almost as like the postal service. It's somewhat government subsidized or guaranteed because it's a public service, a local service, where it's not as as dependent upon classified advertising and banner advertising and display advertising. I don't know what you do with journalism. I don't know if this is the answer, but it seems like a real quagmire to start forcing Facebook and Google and others to start paying content providers. Chad: Yeah. Well, again, the platforms wouldn't get the engagement that they would today if they didn't have that kind of content. Joel: Yeah. They get a lot of traffic from ... They both benefit from each other. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Right? I don't know dude. It's a hard, hard question to answer. Chad: Depends on how you monetize it, because that's really how you have to look at this now as a business model. Is it monetized on the number of shares and number of click-throughs, those types of things. There's no reason that we can't do this. Period, overall. But I think there does have to be lines drawn in the sand. This is just an interesting conversation, we're not doing it here in the US yet, but why not have the conversation? Joel: Yeah. And part of the question is, should Google and Facebook decide who's a publisher or what's a news source? Or should your local government decide what's a journalist or what's a news source? Chad: Oh, this is a national thing in Australia. So this is not the locals doing it, this would be a federal, national conversation, iIf you're going to do business as a social platform. And again, we're talking about right now, Google and Facebook, who are the next platforms, right? To be able to perspectively start absorbing and paying out for this content. Joel: Yeah. The question becomes, who decides who should Google and Facebook pay? I assume it's the federal government, in Australia? Chad: Yeah. That's who's who's doing it now. Joel: So it's just a really interesting question, and we, as societies, need to decide how we value news and good journalism. For the last 20 years, we haven't given a shit about journalism. And in the process we've got fake news, we've got Russian meddling in our elections with crappy news and ... We realize, I think a lot of us, that news and good news and journalism is incredibly important to the commonwealth of humanity. But how do we support that? I don't know. Maybe Facebook and Google subsidizing it will work. I think that's going to be a tough thing to do in the US versus maybe smaller countries. Chad: I think it's a conversation we need to have, either way. These companies, Google and Facebook don't thrive without this type of content. And this is the type of content that people obviously want. That's where you start, what gets shared the most overall? Take a look at the actual data points, right? What gets shared the most, and then start having conversations around those outlets. Same thing on Google, right? What gets searched on the most? It's the same kind of thing. We are dumb humans, but this isn't hard. This is not hard. And every time we say something's complex, the reason why we say something's complex is because we don't want to fucking do anything about it, and that's the problem. We need to change how we think about things and quit pushing them down the road because that's what politicians do. They try to make us think that things are fucking complex when they're not. Joel: It's a fantastic topic. It really is, it's incredibly interesting. The history of journalism is interesting and where it goes from here is interesting. It is an interesting topic for sure. Chad: Yes, and that's why you have the conversation. You don't just pop out of the box with an answer, you have to have conversations and look at all the different angles on who this perspectively impacts, right? Not to mention down the road, the intention could have negative impacts down the road. Right? So that's why you have the discussions. But again, as soon as we start thinking this is complex and nobody wants to do anything about it. We have to focus on simple solutions right out of the box. Joel: Sure. Chad: And a simple solution, as you just said, is Microsoft Teams, is fucking [Inaudible [00:26:41.19]. Business Insider has this great story, Microsoft Teams now has 75 million daily active users and that's adding 31 million in just over a month. You're starting to see traction with Teams. And we've talked about this because everybody loves Slack, but Slack doesn't have the embedded suite that Microsoft does. Joel: Yeah. The quarantine culture that we have been thrown into, has really put a light on Zoom obviously for video conversations with not just companies, but just people's families. We've embraced Zoom in our family, I'm sure you have embraced Zoom or something else. Slack saw it's day in the sun because that was sort of a stay at home virtual work tool. When all this was going on, I think you and I were both thinking, yeah, wait until Microsoft and it's quarterly report talks about Teams and how many people are using that. They're actually advertising it now here in the States, which is really interesting. But yeah, like you said, shit, they're just blowing up. Slack stock has come back from it's March-April lows, but it's in a holding pattern right now. We've seen Zoom stock launch to the moon and come back a little bit from their place. But Microsoft continues to chug. And interestingly, right? Facebook, which I think you shared in our private newsfeed, is starting their own sort of Zoom competitor. So now you're going to have Facebook come in and try to play this. Google as well, had a great earnings report too. They have their own video product, but not really a messaging product that anyone talks about. Chad: Well, Hangouts was what Google had, and it was really buggy and shitty. Well, what they did was they renamed it last month, I think it was, Google Meet, which is now free. But man, I just feel like they are late to the party. The big question is, who can compete? The Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadella actually says that in healthcare there were over 34 million Teams meetings in the past month, over 183,000 educational institutions are now using the tool. And I would assume that some of those probably moved over from Zoom to ensure that their kids did not get Zoom bombed. Joel: When you talk about corporate video messaging, email or whatever, um, ultimately Microsoft is going to call these folks who are already using Microsoft products and say, "You know what? Are you really confident about using Zoom for security purposes and reasons? And if not, we have this product called Teams that is already in compliance with all of your security protocols." And what do you think most of those it pros are going to decide? Do you think they're going to embrace Zoom and other platforms or do you think they're going to default to the tried and true Microsoft? Chad: Every technical admin that I've ever dealt with, it's always the tried and true shit. Joel: Yeah. Well, one thing you should try and has no security issues, is our our friends at JobAdX. Let's hear from them and we'll talk about Amazon drama again for the third or fourth straight week. Chad: Come on. JobAdX: Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop-off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team? Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing, joinus@jobadx.com. That's, joinus@jobadx.com. Attract, engage, employ with JobadX. Chad: Power to the people. Joel: I don't know if we talked about Bezos, Jeff Bezos, Amazon founder and CEO, is taking a more active role in the company. I don't know if you saw this or not. I expect these kinds of stories to continue to be a thing as Mr. Bezos takes more of a hands on approach to squashing the labor uprising that's going on at Amazon right now. Chad: Yeah. thing is this is happening more than just Amazon. So what we're seeing is an app called Shipt chain is changing people's pay in the middle of the Krone virus pandemic. Now, Shipt is owned by target and has tinkered with that formula back and forth. And many of the, many of the people that actually are employed by Shipt and targets, uh, are complaining of smaller paychecks and lack of patrons but now they're starting to pretty much pull everybody together and focus on taking action and creating a union with a nationwide walkout. So the, the Jeff Bezos of the world, they can try to squash this and they're going to continue to try, even in plain sight, they're going to try to squash this stuff. But we're talking about a pandemic now. These workers are essential, yet they couldn't earn a living wage three months ago and they're having the same problems right now, even as they address higher risk jobs every single day. Most of these workers have unreliable income, unpredictable schedules, and limited healthcare and benefits. We've been talking about a living wage for how long now? And now we have these essential people who aren't even, aren't even making $15 an hour with benefits, which once again is 30,000 around $30,000 before taxes. Joel: We've talked about these unions organizing for a long time and as long as unemployment ... As long as times are good and unemployment's down, people do have a job, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's not as big of an issue. There's a window right now where these folks can unionize. Seriously, imagine right now, if workers and Amazon and Walmart walked out for three days and said, "We're going to let everyone in this country know how important we are to these basically too big to fail retailers," which is essentially what Amazon and Walmart are. Things would improve for them very quickly, I would think. But for whatever reason, it's too fragmented. I don't know exactly why, I'm not a union expert. But why there isn't someone organizing these folks to walk out for 72 hours, or whatever it is, to let these companies know that they need to be fair, this window won't be open forever. And unemployment is high and will remain high for a long time, eventually these folks won't be as essential as they are today or at least perceptually not as essential, and unemployment is going to be so high that they're not going to have a story to tell because there'll be five other people to take their job if they do get laid off. I wish someone in the labor union movement or would organize these folks to let the higher ups in the government know how important they are because things aren't going to change unless that happened. Chad: Shipt had a walk out in early April and they were joined by Instacart, Uber, Amazon, Walmart, McDonald's and Whole Foods. And you're right, that's not something that Jeff Bezos is incredibly happy about. As a matter of fact, they're trying to do things internally to ensure that Amazon workers can't communicate, trying to suppress email lists, so they can't communicate and start to formulate these types of unions, these walkouts. Joel: Yeah. It's an age old story, right? Corporate interests versus labor. Corporate America in this case is going to do whatever they can internally to squash these uprisings, and fragment the workforce. And I'm sure contract workers are part of that, right? Lke, we're not full employees, but we work here so we can't unionize. They have a whole strategy of making sure walk outs don't happen. And the walkouts that you mentioned, the walkout, how many people knew about that? What did itactually do? I think they need to think bigger to make an impact. But anyway, I think ultimately the government's going to have to step in to Amazon in regards to taxes and in regards to how they treat employees and a minimum wage on the national level. And even Elizabeth Warren and her folks are talking about breaking up Big Tech, which I'm becoming more and more a believer in, because of situations just like this. Chad: Yeah. And then you have a company like Ford that does have a union, and the Detroit Free Press reports forward exacts, their exact pay is 70 million, that exceeds the company's profits in 2019, and none of those motherfuckers are essential. I guaran-fucking-tee you. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. That brings a whole other mess of issues as well. But yeah, shit's a little broken in our country and a lot of other places. And if there's a silver lining t the pandemic, it may be a leveling out of what's going on in corporate world, in terms of how they treat labor. We can hope. Chad: We have to. We have to focus on the humans first. Right? And then talking about actual human rights and what pay should look like. An actual living human rights pay, right? What does that look like? What do benefits do? Does every American deserve healthcare? It's questioned. Okay then, how do we fucking do it? Because I believe every human being deserves healthcare. Joel: But until Chad gets named ruler of the world, which God help us, there are a lot of people who disagree with that, and to come to a consensus on that is a long way off. Chad: And those motherfuckers are monsters. Let's just put that out there. Anybody who believes that some people have a right to healthcare and some people don't have a right to health care, those people are fucking monsters. Joel: Fair enough. But you'll agree that a lot of people don't agree with you on that one. Chad: And they're monsters. I agree. Joel: They're monsters. Factorial. Big money winner this week, Factorial, a company out of Spain Chad: What a name. Joel: ... Got 16 million US, which is not chump change. Chad: No. Joel: To basically, and here's that word again, automate the entire HR function. Pretty much everything, they're looking at automating. So they, similar to Remote and Oyster from last week. If you're automating shit, you're going to get money, and these guys got 16 mil. Chad: Yes, in Barcelona. Man, I love Barcelona. We should go over there and check those guys out. Joel: It's pronounced Barcelona. Chad: It's interesting because they're focused on the SMB market. I took at the product a little bit, it's pretty sexy. It's one of those things that, if you're going to be in a system all day or even partially, right? You want to have UI or even user experience UX, that feels good, that's easy on the eyes. Right? And that's what we're seeing with a lot of these platforms, is that they're really trying to make it smooth or trying to make it easy and they're trying to take a lot of those steps out so that you don't have to screw around with the minutia. So that's pretty cool. Joel: It's great that you talk about design and I think that we take that for granted, but a lot of the traditional old guard, players, they're not real nice on the eyes for the most part. Chad: No. Joel: And I think part of the growth of Lever and Greenhouse, people embracing that was just the fact that they look nice. They look new, they look cool, they look like ... They don't look like Windows 95. And there is something to be said for that because in today's today's world, having good design is the default. If you don't have that, just don't even bother. Chad: It's got to be sexy. Joel: And you know who is sexy? Goddammit, our friends at Sovren. Let's hear from them and we'll talk about, God help us, stripper drive-throughs. Sovren: Sovren parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: Well Chad, I know, I know you've been concerned about the welfare of strippers in this pandemic. Chad: Of course. Joel: Out of Oregon, we have a Ray of sunshine and hope for the profession. You want to tell us about drive-through strip clubs. Chad: So it's interesting because the Lucky Devil Strip Club SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: ... Offers what they call food to Go-Go. See what they did there? After first offering food delivery, because it's one of those things where it's like, okay, we have to at least try to get some income coming in, they had a food deliver that was going, the Lucky Devil Lounge Strip Club has started a second venture, food pickup via a drive through strip club. Four Go-go dancers perform under cover of an indoor tent in the club parking lot while customers wait for their food orders in their car. So what you do is you go there, and you order a big order, so that obviously you're there for a little bit longer, Joel: 80 wings. And they have a DJ who plays songs. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The workers, if you will, are all wearing masks, while they're on pole and doing their thing. There's lights, fog, there's a giant disco ball. This is just awesome. Chad: This is innovation, people. So when you're thinking of, how can in this time ... Here's my problem. The problem is the Corona virus, is six feet, all this other fun stuff that everybody hates. How can I still get people to come and spend money with us and how can I help my people, my employees, right? That's the biggest question right now because you have to cut staff down, so on and so forth. How can we get more of that money out to the employees? Joel: In the videos, the guys that are tipping have gloves on, and the girls, it's just ridiculous. Bolden, a guy that's the the owner, whatever said, "The dancers are happy to be working and be labeled as essential workers." And that pretty much to me just sums it all up. I have one more thing to add on the show, unless you have more stripper stuff to add. Chad: No, go ahead. Joel: All right. Did you see that story about the air force or Defense Department unveiling UFO videos from the last 20 years or something? Chad: And we don't need aliens right now. Okay? Joel: But this would've ... Seriously, this should be the biggest story in the world. There are aliens, right? Basically. Unless someone can explain this shit that flies 3000 miles an hour, then there are aliens and they're coming to our planet. And this is a huge story and nobody's talking about it because of the pandemic. So, good on the Defense Department to know when to unveil this shit. But this is a huge story and no one's talking about it. I just wanted to throw it out there. Chad: Yeah. And I think aliens, it's fairly simple, the aliens came, they did a drive by, saw how fucked up humans are and said, "Let's get out of here. This is not the neighborhood we want to get out in." Joel: But now that we have drive-through strip clubs, they might stick around. Chad: That's a good point. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? Podcast. With Chad, with Cheese. And they talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one, cheddar, blue, nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss, there are so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode and while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out. #Amazon #Target #Shipt #Jobvite #Microsoft #Teams #Wages #Google #Facebook #content

When Chad doesn't relent... Joel does the podcast.. Check it out below :)

Thad Price, CEO of Talroo tell Chad & Cheese about the newest expansion of service to the Pirate Sector. #Talroo #CEO #Pirate #News

Talroo's Pirate Dialect Coach explains how Talroo's expansion to the Pirate sector is necessary and includes training for all Talroo staff. #Talroo #video #Pirate

Being an industry leader isn't easy... Constantly fighting the good fight, providing for clients and job seekers while protecting your flanks and reinventing the entire recruitment industry... That's exactly what iCIMS leadership is doing. . In mid-Oct Joel and I flew to NJ and landed at iCIMS HQ for the iCIMS iNFLUENCE event. During the event Colin Day, iCIMS CEO and Chairman of the Board along with other iCIMS leaders shared their common vision for more than just iCIMS. For the industry and how iCIMS will lead in reinventing it. This is just one episode in the iCIMS iNFLUENCE 2018 Series. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. This episode starts with Colin talking about what Google wants.. and what he believes is of utmost importance... Chad - So Colin what does Google want? Colin - They (Google) want no middlemen and they want single click apply. And for me that's music to my ears, that's absolute music to my ears. Now people will say Colin you're stupid they came out with an ATS too, they're a competitor of yours. Colin - Their ATS is for the G-Suite, for the SMB. We would be really nervous if we were an SMB vendor. I don't see Google building an enterprise quality Talent Acquisition platform over the next 5-10 years. It's too complicated, they haven't proven they can do it so I say let them have small companies out of the G-Suite I will take that any day for them to get Google for Jobs out. Colin - Because that's the most important thing here. Chad - Then Colin answers my question about slowing down job boards scraping and pounding iCIMS career sites, most importantly becoming the fast lane of job content for Google... Listen up.. Chad - You're talking about slowing down other lanes. Right. So you want a fast lane to Google but you want to slow down the other lanes. What do you mean buy "slowing down the other lanes"? Are you going to hold jobs? Colin - I don't think we're going to hold them unfairly , we're just not going to let them do unnatural... I mean right now they... When we look at our portal traffic and what slows down portals or whatever, well if Indeed is scraping you every 5 minutes, it slows you down. So I think we're just going to look at SLAs and say "Guys weren't not going to try and be unfair." Chad - Why does Colin believe this to be important? Well, Google over the years (before Google for Jobs) had crowned Indeed the winner of the job site wars and one of the reasons Indeed was crowned revoled around getting job content to Google faster than any other platform, including the ATS. Well, that is going to stop when it comes to iCIMS and their client's jobs. iCIMS will become the fastest lane in delivering jobs, while all others will be taken down a notch... or two... You can find more episode in the iCIMS iNFLUENCE 2018 Series at chadcheese.com... or better yet, never miss an episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast by subscribing using iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotifiy or where ever you get your podcasts. #iCIMSiNFLUENCE #iCims #Marketing #ATS #CRM #RMP #Event

Wall Street has fallen asleep on employment websites for many years. After Glassdoor's major tease job earlier this year, it's looking like things are finally starting to heat-up with Upwork, Slack and ZipRecruiter on The Street. PLUS Amazon raises wages - not really Google is watching you - "Rockwell style" LinkedIn uses data to launch a money machine - srsly wtf are Monster & CB doing? Goodtime.io banks on automating interview scheduling , which everyone is now doing! Enjoy and visit sponsors Sovren, JobAdX and new addition Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies find talent in the largest minority community in the world – people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Hidey ho, boys and girls. Welcome to another fun filled episode of the award-winning, let me say that again, award-winning, Chad and Cheese Podcast. The world has lost its mind. We're HR's most dangerous and I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash and I'm kissing the ReSi right now. Joel: On this week's show, ZipRecruiter keeps making it rain. Slack and Upwork hit up Wall Street, and if it wasn't enough for Google to spy on all of us, they're now helping your employer spy on you. Joel: Before you run to your backyard bunker or slap some tinfoil on your head and open up that can of Spam, listen to this word from a sponsor. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of ... " Or, "It's the PayPal of ... " Maybe they're the Facebook of ... In many, many cases, these comparisons fall short of being close to reality. Or even a useful illustration of what useful organizations actually do. In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX, is Google AdSense, for jobs. JobAdX: That means we're an efficient, persistent and smarter ad unit for job-related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs and staffing firms, real-time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. JobAdX: All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click, or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set and regret. For direct clients, JobAdX offers superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. JobAdX: We also provide publishers and job boards higher rev share than other partners, through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases 30-40% greater and more through our scalable model. To partner with us, you can visit or search, JobAdX.com or email us at: joinus@jobadx.com to get estimates or begin working together. JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK, too. Chad: I bet if you and I read that with a British accent from now on, Tim will get us a new ad much quicker. Joel: And we'll lose listeners, much faster. Chad: No, I think it'll be funny as hell. Joel: Yeah, dude. Chad: C'mon. Joel: [horrible British accent] Hello. JobAdX? You like? Chad: [even worse British accent] Or, the Facebook of ... Yeah. No, I get it. Joel: Shout-outs. Chad: Shout-outs. Okay, you get the first one. Joel: Peter Clayton. Oh my God, dude. My man- Chad: Awesome. Joel: ... Peter Clayton, video/audio extraordinaire was shooting Death Match from last week, and provided assorted summary. He interviewed us, we published it on the podcast, so if you subscribe iTunes, Google Play, et cetera., just play that baby and the video comes out. But Peter just crushed it and continues to do so. Major shout-out to PC. Chad: That's pretty awesome. And we also dropped ALLYO's Death Match Pod yesterday, so listen up and watch for Talk Push, Uncommon and Canvas. Their Death Match performances are on the way. Joel: I think Uncommon's next, right? Chad: No, Talk Push. Joel: Okay, but we're going to be rapid firing these mothers in the next few days I think. If I can get off the couch for five minutes. Chad: No, shit. Wow. Joel: I'll get those things off. Bumble. Chad: Bumble, yeah, Bumble. Joel: Bumbles next. Everybody, Bumble, dude. I mean we talked about them once, because they had Bumble Biz I think, a while back. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But I think we were both impressed by their full-page ad during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings that simply said, "Believe Her," right? Chad: It said, "Believe Women." Joel: "Believe Women." Ups to that. Chad: Understated. It was in Bumble colors, but that's all it said, it said, "Believe Women." Had a small Bumble logo in the upper right. Yeah, and I mean their organization really is focused on women, so for them to actually come out the way that they did was incredibly smart. It's a great message and it's a message that we should all embrace. But it was pretty awesome to see them do that. Joel: And by the way, it's my understanding that dating sites don't exist without women, so it's a pretty savvy move. Chad: No, shit. Matt Plummer over at Zip commented on LinkedIn. He said ... We had our picture with our new award, the ReSi, at TAtech. He said, "Congrats on the ReSi. I don't know what category you won, but I assume it wasn't podcasting." SFX: Boo. Chad: That's fucking awesome. Joel: That was just cold, man. That was just cold. Chad: I love it. Joel: Shout-out to iCIMSs. Chad: Okay. Joel: I don't think we've talked about it, but iCIMs is flying us, as well as a lot of other, I guess, "Thought Leaders" out to New Jersey, the vacationing hotspot. And treating us to some iCIM's insights. I think we're going to do a little interview with the CEO, maybe. We'll get Susan Vitale to give us a, we out, while we're there, so yeah, excited about that. Chad: And some Kostelnik time, too, I believe. Joel: Oh, yeah. Chad: That should be sweet. Joel: That would be nice. Chad: Next week, Louise Triance, from UK Recruiter, she loves talking about Google. But she loves talking about Google and the recruitment industry more, with me. So we're actually doing a talk on Crowdcast. We're going to talk about the Google APIs on the recruitment side, and a bunch of crazy shit, so check out my Twitter feed: chad_sowash and register up. Check it out. Joel: That sounds like a party. Joel: Shout-out to Dirk Spencer, TA guy over at JC Penney. Yeah, I guess they are still in business. Chad: Did you say, Dirk Diggler? Joel: Dirk, no that's a different show. Chad: Oh, my bad. Joel: Saw him SourceCon, hit me up on LinkedIn and said, "It's nice to see that you're finally aging." I'm not exactly sure how to take that, but Dirk, shout-out to you for that. Chad: Tim Meehan over at KellyOCG for giving the pod some love on LinkedIn. He's a fan of the show and apparently loves the "Colorful Language." Joel: So educational. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Ty Abernethy shout-out. Ty is known primarily for, Take the Interview, which ConveyIQ is what they are now. He basically has left. Talked to me about his new start-up, which is coming soon, so Ty, it's good to see you out there still hitting the start-up world. Shout-out to you. Good luck to you and let us know when you drop. He's already reserved a spot on, Firing Squad. Chad: Yes. That's what I was going to say. Get his ass on, Firing Squad. Chad: To Henrik Christensen, he actually asked me on LinkedIn, "Can you share a screen dump of Google showing job suggestions on the homepage?" And with the new Chrome update ... We've been talking about these job suggestions, which thought was really cool. That has gone away, so the new Chrome update, which looks, I mean it looks pretty fricking spectacular. I like it. But unfortunately those job suggestions on the homepage have gone by the wayside. SFX: Boo. Joel: I've got to say, the Chrome page is awesome. For the Safari guys, the Firefox guys, man, up your game, because the new Chrome is really beautiful and really nice. Chad: They're kicking ass, dude, kicking ass. Joel: I hate the screen shots of sites that you visit. That are log-in screens or they're blank and it's just a white square. Anyway, yeah, Safari needs to up its game, take some of that trillions of dollars you have and put a new paint job on the Safari website. Joel: Quick shout-out, last for me, Sofia Coon, marketing person over at kununu. She's looking for a new opportunity. She's been really helpful to us; helped facilitate an interview with their CMO. I hope that this is not a bad omen for kununu's future, however I fear that, that may be the case. Chad: Yeah, let's hope not. Don't forget our listeners. You wanted to shout-out to the listeners, right? Joel: Oh, shit. Yes. We tipped it this week, right, or we almost tipped the thousand? Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A thousand podcast listens in a single freaking day, man. That means just ridiculous. Thanks so much to our listeners, I mean keep listening. Keep tweeting. Tell your friends, tell your family, tell your peers. And get them all to subscribe. Joel: Remember when we said, "Man, if we could get a hundred listens for a show, that we'd be just crushing it?" Chad: Yeah. Joel: And look at us now. So yeah, thanks listeners. You keep listening and we'll keep talking. Joel: All right, hot off the presses, ZipRecruiter, you may have heard them, you may have seen them. May be sick of them. Has raised another 156 million dollars. Chad: Hello. Joel: And is now worth an impressive, 1.5 billion dollars. Yeah, hot off the news. Chad: Do we also want to take a historical look at what Monster and CareerBuilder actually sold for? Joel: Sure. About a third of that, I believe. Chad: Yes. It's about what, 500 million a piece, so yeah, Zip is ... they're upping their game and we actually did a segment on them, I think it was last week, talking about how they are focusing heavily on data and they've been focusing on the deep learning piece. And they're not in this for the short game, kids. They are doing a great job, up-front, right now, but they are looking at how they can do a better job. And this cash is definitely going to help them fucking do that. Joel: And don't forget that they are the presenting sponsor for, Serial, the most popular podcast in the world, which makes me think some of this 156 million dollar new raise is going to go to the Chad and Cheese kitty, because clearly, clearly they have enough money now to afford the Chad and Cheese Podcast. But I guess, stay tuned on that one, kids. We'll see how that one goes. Joel: Obviously an IPO has to be coming. We talked about Glassdoor selling for 1.2 billion, they were snatched up before they went public. Could Zip get snatched up, otherwise an IPO has to be coming, don't you think? Chad: They're getting pretty expensive right now. I mean, if you think about all the cash that they're taking. I mean, yeah, there's still an opportunity to be bought. Joel: I still think there's some danger here. I mean, they're still looking down the barrel of the Google, Microsoft, LinkedIn, Facebook, gun. And let's admit, they have to spend a lot of money to keep the traffic gods happy. And I don't see that changing any time soon. I don't know how much they have to spend to get the traffic they need. How much space for profit there is with the ads in the market they're doing. Joel: To me, I've always thought Indeed and Zip are in this horrible hamster wheel of, spend money, keep getting traffic, keep customers happy, keep spending money and then just keep doing that. And maybe they've got the formula down. Maybe they're golden, but man I think that's a really tough game to keep going when people like LinkedIn and Microsoft and Google just have a built-in audience. Chad: Well I think they do have a built-in audience. It's the database that they are amassing every single day with all this money that they're spending. And being able to target and re-target individuals who are closer to qualified, if not qualified, for a specific position. Chad: I think what they're doing in playing this Indeed type of game with the advertising money is they're able to build this huge data base so that they can go to the data base first. That's the primary, because they've already paid for those people. Go to that primary data base first, start targeting them. Pull those individuals in to be able to apply for an easy apply, right. For jobs that are being posted. And if it doesn't meet a certain threshold of what they want from an amount of candidate standpoint, then they can turn on programmatic and they can start to push jobs out there, right. Chad: I think from a sustainability standpoint, that's where you start to really level and balance, not spending as much money from a programmatic standpoint, as opposed to using a data base and targeting who you have already. Joel: Yeah, and I think it's going to be paramount for them to penetrate the enterprise business in some way because I'm not sure they can survive being the local pub solution for hiring. I think they're going to have to extend beyond that, and I think they're going to get heat from the companies that I've talked about that are platforms for hourly workers to pick where they work and things like that. I think if Zip doesn't create something competitive to that, that it's going to be hard to stick with the lower-level, entry-level jobs that they're known for. Chad: Yep, totally agree. Joel: More in the IPO news. Rumors for Zip that we just talked about radically but Upwork, which we've talked about glowingly in the past, actually went public this week. Their first day on the market was yesterday. So they first went to market between the $10 and $12 per share. That went up to about $12 and $14 per share. I think they actually went out at $15. It quickly went to $23, which these things do. And then they totally stalled and went down from $23 to about $21. Joel: A lot of people are citing challenges with competition. You have LinkedIn sort of getting into this. You have Fiverr and you have Freelancer, more on a global basis. But I think more interestingly to me is that the gig economy as a whole is getting a lot of heat in that there aren't as many giggers or freelancers as maybe we think. And, the money that you're making freelancing, particularly with Uber and Lyft, is much less than what people expect. And the amount of profit that people are making is going down significantly. So those two challenges have really, I think, kept their stock sort of challenged or had a ceiling at that 20-ish level. I don't know if that'll change. What are your thoughts? Chad: Yeah. They talk about the number of online freelances as simply not that large. I think one of the reasons why it's not that large is that our industry moves like molasses in January. It is uber slow. We are so behind every other piece of technology that's out there. And to be able to adopt something like this, which is incredibly smart, to be able to really have a platform pretty much on demand. Have talent to be able to pick up projects for you makes a hell of a lot of sense. Chad: But the problem is we're still in a 1950s style, "Well, you have to come work for me with benefits," and all this other stuff. Trying to get out of that thought process, a company has to get out of that first. I mean they really do. They have to get out of it to be able to open up those types of positions, and then the people will come. I mean that's all there is to it. Chad: So is it a situation where really there aren't enough freelances out there? I think that's bullshit. I think everybody pretty much is a freelancer, and they could pick up projects in most cases. It's just that our industry and the companies in HR and talent acquisition move too goddamn slow. Not to mention, we hear all the bitching and complaining about not being able to actually find the type of talent that we want and/or need because they're looking at still traditional types of job units. Right. "This is a traditional type of job." Bullshit. Break it up into freelancer type of work. Joel: I think we're both long-term pretty bullish on Upwork. I think they have a pretty good mote. I think that once they start mobilizing the enterprise, which they're trying to do, and I think will eventually happen. I think things really happen quickly. Let's be honest, near unemployment is not going to last forever. Jobs are not going to be plentiful forever. And when the economy goes south, people that are laid off are going to look for options, and I think the freelance option is going to be one that many, many people look at. And once they get hooked on sort of the freelance life, and taking on projects that are exciting, and working with various companies, and maybe I'm bias because that's what I do, they'll ... more and more people gravitate and embrace a site like Upwork for their wellbeing and their livelihood than, "I've got to get a job." Right? There's another option out there. I just think with low unemployment, they've got a job and that's their life. And then when that changes, they'll look at other options. Chad: There's no question. And again, we have to think about work in a much different way. We just have to. If we don't, we're going to get passed up by other countries. Joel: And I would say the big majority of folks on Upwork that embraced it really quickly were international where there aren't as many opportunities and to be accessible to companies in America, and Europe, and Asia was obviously very appealing to that audience. So, it'll just take some time. But yeah, I think Upwork is in the catbird seat as far as a freelance economy, which we think will eventually happen, although it's under pressure at the moment. Chad: Exactly. Joel: So more IPO news, more rumors. Slack, which we've talked about a lot and, frankly, laughs at ZipRecruiter's 1.5 billion valuation, because Slack's got to be in that seven to eight billion dollar number by now. They're finally reportedly going IPO early 2009. Thoughts? Chad: Yeah. This is incredibly interesting from the standpoint of ... Slack, and this is from the Wall Street Journal Story, "Slack operates a popular workplace instant messaging app." That's what we've talked about for a very long time. It's a messaging app. It's like, "Jesus man, how could it have this kind of valuation." But we talked about last week the acquisition of Astro being able to really blur the lines, we believe, or at least I believe, in what messaging is. Chad: Instead of having all these different platforms to be able to text, and to be able to Facebook message, and to be able to do your Slack messaging, and so on, and so forth. To be able to bring that all together in one platform. And then all the data that you're able to log within all those conversations, all those documents, so on and so forth, it becomes an incredibly powerful system, but still a messaging system, a productivity system in some cases. So I think it's interesting. It still really is ... It's a crazy story. I mean, it really is. Joel: When you look at Google and Microsoft, they really were built in large part by email. I mean Google was already a search engine, but until it had Gmail, and it had your information, and it was able to build products around that, they were just Google, and not that that's bad, but. I mean email really put them in the enterprise sort of work space that they're in today, Outlook as well. Right? I think Microsoft, once they had email, they could build all this other stuff around it. And I think Slack is a new generation of communication. To me, the next phase is to start becoming a Microsoft/Google competitor. Joel: I don't know what that looks like, but Microsoft is labeled as a competitor and a threat. I'm sure Google looks at them the same way. Why else would they be valued at five, six, seven billion dollars? To me it's because that's the vision of what they're painting for investors. Joel: I'm super intrigued by Slack, super interested for when they go public. I think we've talked about the app, the app infrastructure that they have. That some of the most exciting small companies and startups in our space are building on Slack, and so I think they've really got something. I'm really excited about them IPOing next year, and we'll definitely be covering that hardcore. Chad: And it's hilarious because Stewart Butterfield, who sold Flickr to Yahoo, what he's been doing is he's been trying to create an online gaming system since before Flickr. They were running out of money, so they had this kind of side product that they were doing, which today we know as Flickr, and they started to put a little bit of love into that. And they sold it to Yahoo, got a great exit. And then the same thing happened. They went back to the online gaming system, couldn't get money out of it. The messaging system that they built internally was Slack, and that's how ... They were like, "Well, we've got to sell something. Let's go and use this thing." It's fucking amazing. I mean Stewart sucks at building games, but he's awesome at photo sharing and messaging. Joel: How many companies in our space are hitting themselves in the head going, "Why didn't we come up with that? It's just messaging on the phone." Anyway. Chad: It's crazy. Joel: So yeah, IPO excitement, rumors, reality, and projections. Exciting times. Chad: Yes. It's good to know. Joel: How do you want to work this new Canvas ad into the show? Chad: For everybody who doesn't know, Canvas is a new sponsor, and they're slow in getting us an ad with a lady with an English accent. Joel: They're clearly basking in the glow of their death match glory, which I can't blame them for. Chad: Exactly. Joel: And they're actually, because we know those guys, are actually doing real work, getting customers, getting ... shaking the tree. So, we're not going to hate on them for not getting us an ad in time. We love these guys. They're crushing it. But yeah, they can do better than us just freestyling an ad for them. Chad: Lean and mean, that's what they are right now. Chad: But let's talk about the world's first text-based interviewing platform, Canvas. Shall we? Joel: Sure. Chad: Aman, the CEO, talked about on stage, and Death Match is ... I think one of the coolest features that we've seen is that this is really ... It gives you the opportunity to have like your automated messaging, which has the human override piece. Right? Chad: One of the things that I know you have issues with, and so do I in some cases, is that kind of human touch being taken out of things. Joel: Too much, "Bleep bloop, bleep bloop." Chad: But not with Canvas. Joel: No. Not with Canvas. Chad: The Canvas bots, which is the automated piece, but again has that human interaction where you can actually override it and start to have those conversations. It's really a cool product, not just from the standpoint of the opportunity to engage candidates. But I've been on platforms before that you use for a while, and it's like it hurts to use because it's so ugly. This thing's a hot looking piece of platform, right? And it works, and it does exactly what companies need. Community Health, I think, here in Indianapolis had like an 85% open rate for their texts to nurses. That's fucking crazy. Joel: Yeah. But that's standard texting stuff. And Aman, being a maverick in this space back with his days at Cha Cha, understood that, and he's bringing it to the employment space. To me, back to your, "How automated do you want to be?" These guys are the Burger King of the space, right? They're going to give it to you however you want. If you want to be totally automated, be totally automated. If you want to be semi-automated, we got that for you to. If you want to take it all out of the equation, you can do that as well. Joel: I thought you were going to talk about your love for Bitmojis, and a new product that allows employers to send Bitmojis and create a personality around their product. But you know, if you don't want to talk about Bitmojis, I'm okay with that too. Chad: Oh, dude. My daughter just went to college, and one of the best ways to actually communicate with her is on Snapchat. And on Snapchat, they have the Bitmojis. Now I feel like I'm really a part of the Canvas family because I have a Bitmoji, and I use it in my emails and all that other happy horse shit too. Joel: Yeah. You do use it in your emails, and it's ... It's miserable. Chad: Look, messaging is where everything is going. Younger folks, older folks, everyone's on text messaging and messaging. Canvas is on the cutting edge of that stuff. More and more companies are getting into the space. It's getting more competitive, and this is where you need to be as a customer. Canvas is certainly one that everyone needs to look at. Chad: GoCanvas.io, not a great URL, but that's what it is. GoCanavas.io. Go to the right-hand corner. It says, "Request a Demo," click that bad boy, get a demo, and you'll thank us. Joel: And if you mention Chad and Cheese, they might send you a free Koozie. I don't know. Chad: Boom. Joel: That wasn't too bad of an ad, right? That was all right. Chad: That was pretty awesome. Joel: All right. Let's talk about Amazon raising its minimum wage to $15 and then pulling a switcheroo on their commission structure. Chad: Go ahead. You start. I've got to get the paper bag and start deep breathing. Go ahead. Joel: This story fires you up. Joel: So, to much acclaim and celebration by their workforce, Amazon announced that they were going to raise their minimum wage to $15 an hour. Bernie Sanders got all hot and bothered, and loved this. Bezos went on stage and said, "Hey. We can't rely on government to lead the way to higher wages. We're going to lead, and bring higher wages, and force other companies to give their workers higher wages, so they won't come over to Amazon." Really warm and fuzzy story. News outlets went crazy. Politicians went nuts. Joel: And then, as Amazon is apt to do, pulled the rug out, quietly, after the fact, and announced that, quote, "They'll eliminate monthly bonuses and stock awards for warehouse workers." This is according to Bloomberg. They say that bonuses sometimes amounted to several hundred dollars per month. This follows, of course, the wage increase announcement. Rumor has it by some workers, they're not real happy about the minimum wage increase with the takeaway of the commission structure because a lot of them will actually make less money now. Chad: Hey, Bernie, you just got bait and switched, dumbass. Joel: You got Bezosed Chad: Bezosed. Chad: Seriously, this is all politics and optics. They're trying to change the narrative of employees pissing in garbage cans because they can't take bathroom breaks because that would put them behind their quota at work. Testing haptic bracelets that buzz employees when they aren't near where they're should be. And now, I just found this out. Somebody actually pointed it out to me. There's a patent that was submitted to put Amazon human workers in cages while they're on the floor. Chad: It's like, "Dude ... " Joel: Maybe they can fill them with the Twitter zombies that are out tweeting about how great it is to work at Amazon. Chad: Yeah, exactly. Chad: I mean, it's over and over. It's like, "Dude, you aren't pushing anything. The only thing you're pushing is a bunch of bullshit, and people are going to find out about it." I mean, we're in a land of transparency for goodness sakes. Joel: Amen. Chad: And if individuals really wanted $15 an hour, they didn't want you to take away bonuses, which probably would level that back out to what they were being paid before, if not less. Joel: I bet Amazon is going to save money from this move, I really do. Chad: Probably. Joel: Bezos, God love him, I mean the dude knows how to work the political PR angle. Because while he's launching rockets and drones into space and slave wages for his workers, he's out buying the Washington Post. He's looking really good with politicians. Because ultimately the big criticism of them was just the hourly ... the pay stub, the hourly salary. No one took a look under the hood and said, "Okay. Well, salaries are kind of low, but the commission structure is ... " You know, they can make significantly more money. Ultimately, I think he's just biding his time before this whole thing gets automated. Joel: I also think the move to have franchisees who deliver Amazon products and saying that those folks will make, you know, six figures a year. I think that was pretty genius. I mean the guy knows how to work the PR game. I think it's sad for his workers that are going to be in cages working for slave wages and tweeting all day. That's a bad thing for America, but it's an opportunity for the Walmarts and Targets of the world to make a stand and make a statement I guess. Chad: Robots and drones, that's the future of Amazon. Joel: Let's talk a little bit about LinkedIn Talent Insights. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I love this. I think I said this last week or the week before. We got to HR Tech, Monster drops Monster Studios, which is kind of a quite little video thing. Careerbuilder drops augmented reality, which we both think is totally absurd, and ridiculous, and will probably be gone in six months. And LinkedIn, at the same time, drops Talent Insights, which is a culmination of all the data they have on people, activity, and jobs, data, data, data. And how they can take all that data and make sense of it to help people recruit, build their brand, predict where people are going, predict where people are going. Help predict where we should build our next factory because that's where these workers are; to predict what companies we should poach from because these are the companies that are losing folks. And actually, I don't know if I mentioned this, but in the demo that I had, we looked at Salesforce and we looked at Salesforce data, and they had CareerBuilder as losing, I think, 26 people to Salesforce in the last, whatever, six months or a year. That data point alone was worth the demo knowing that so many CareerBuilder folks are leaving for Salesforce. But anyway, again you talk about chess and checkers; Linkedin is playing chess and everyone else is playing checkers for the most part. Chad: It just doesn't make any sense for the CareerBuilders and the Monsters of the world. CareerBuilder has talent discovery; they pull off of EMSI data, which is workforce data, so they have a ton of this stuff. The thing is, over the years they have sucked at marketing, so nobody really knows broad base that they have this powerful kind of tool, because they do have huge warehouses of data on candidates, and movement, and those types of things. They have been doing things like this, probably not in the exact same way. Monster's the same kind of scenario. Chad: So, 100 percent right. Do we focus on actually leveraging more of what is going to sell and get you to qualified candidates, number one, or do we talk about augmented reality, Pokemon jobs bullshit, or pushing videos on job postings? That's the big game, man. How are you going to sell those two pieces versus this big data play that really focuses on talent, and qualified talent, where it's moving and where you can go start targeting it? Joel: And one thing that Linkedin got right early on and continues to get right is that their data is more or less a living, breathing thing. When I post my resume on CareerBuilder, if I get a new job I don't automatically think I've got to update my resume on CareerBuilder. But when I'm in Linkedin, I'm like I got a new job, I've got to update my profile, as well as share it and people are congratulating me, and blah blah blah. Linkedin Insights has this living, breathing data set that CareerBuilder and Monster, with their current resume structure, do not have. So to me, it was a significant difference in what Linkedin is doing, and what CareerBuilder Insights or whatever is doing or could be doing. Linkedin has a different ... they're playing a different game. Chad: It's so easy, though. You have resumes which could easily be turned into profiles. You can parse that out and you can field that data very simply, not to mention- Joel: But people have to update it. Chad: No. No, no they don't. Listen, just sit back and listen there for a second, Sweetheart. What happens is you get a Crowded Refresh or you get an Entelo or you get something like that, partner with them, acquire them, whatever you need to do to be able to constantly refresh that data. The web is nothing but data; go use it, mine it, that's what it's there for. So yeah, I get it. On Linkedin, people are better at updating their info, but info's being updated all over the place. That's why the Monsters and the CareerBuilders of the world should be focusing more on long-term strategy on targeted qualified talent versus VRs and augmented reality. Joel: You keep defending your position there in fantasy land with what might happen or what could happen. I'm going to deal with what's real, and Linkedin is real. Chad: It is real. I agree. Joel: And you know what else is real? Chad: What? Joel: Our sponsor, Sovren. Let's hear from them and talk about Google Simply Hired, good God. Good times, and more automated scheduling stuff. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and more accurate parsing products. And now based on that technology comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job, and just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N-dot-com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren. Software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: Boom. Chad: There you go. Parsing products, there you go. There's the answer, Joel. First and foremost, go to Sovren, have them do the parsing so that you have the field of data that you need, and then start to mine the web. It's so fuckin' easy. See? We even had the answer right in the ad. Joel: That's right. Go acquire Sovren and then cancel your sponsorship with Chad & Cheese because they talk so much shit about your company ... Chad: I didn't say acquire Sovren. I said go use their products. Joel: Chad, do you remember the song I Always Feel Like Somebody's Watching Me? Chad: Yeah, Rockwell, baby. Joel: So I thought of that ... Yeah, Rockwell with voice by- Chad: Michael Jackson. Joel: -Michael Jackson, of course. Which was the only reason that song was a hit song. Chad: Yes. Joel: But Google is watching you. We kind of knew that. But released news reports recently out, Google is going to help employers understand who's using its G Suite product and who isn't. So, employees out there who have G Suite that aren't using it, your boss is going to know and you might be in trouble. Chad: Especially projects, collaboration projects and things like that, that's really what you're looking for. This is collaboration software. It really is, so they'll be able to actually see what you're doing, if you're doing, and if you're not. The big thing for me, which I thought was interesting from our standpoint, is what about Hire by Google? That's a part of the G Suite, right? Chad: Yeah. Chad: So if recruiters aren't in there actually using it and collaborating, are these same types of analytics going to be provided to hiring managers and recruiting managers or what have you? Joel: Sure. I think there's definite room for companies to know our recruiters aren't using our products, and that's good for Google because people will use the products. It might be bad for people who don't use the product. I've got to think Microsoft and Linkedin will come out with this soon at some point. And by the way, if they know who's using and who isn't, they know who they can jack the price up on because it's so integral to their business. Chad: Yeah. I would say to an extent, but still if you think about it as a hiring manager, if I can go in to take a look at analytics and see that my recruiter's not actually working on my fucking requisition, I can raise some hell because I need some talent. That being said, you actually found some data on Simply Hired. I don't know how anything's getting on Simply Hired anymore, by the way, but it was actually about monitoring messages and surveillance. Joel: That's the whole thing. I don't even care what the survey said. I know it was about companies watching folks, and people are like they're reading my email. And that's great, and those surveys come out every quarter. But what I am super intrigued at is why was this released under the Simply Hired brand, which was acquired by Indeed over a year ago, and pretty much ... The site is still there. It serves Indeed ads or Indeed postings. But why in the world ... Help me figure out why did Indeed unveil a survey under the Simply Hired brand, which they should not be focused on? Chad: No clue. I don't know what their content strategy is on Simply Hired from a SEO standpoint; still trying to drive job seekers to it for some reason. I have no clue. Joel: Why not Indeed Survey? I don't understand, total mystery to me. If anyone out there knows, hit us up at chadcheese.com. Chad: Or Glassdoor. Joel: Or Glassdoor. What was interesting also was there was no date on the post. It was reported by CNBC, some major news outlets, so there was some effort to get out. There was nothing on the wire, like PR Newswire, which is usually the case. There was nothing on the site. It's a real mystery to me, and it's one of those why in the hell are they doing this, and I can't figure it out. Chad: Yeah. It's a dead brand. Why do anything to- Joel: Yeah, yeah. I don't know, dude. I don't know. It's a mystery. Help us out, listeners. Chad: Yeah. Somebody over at Indeed, why are you putting shit on Simply Hired? Joel: Writing for ERE, reputable company, Indeed usually gets back to me and let's me know what's going on. I reached out to them on this and I got nothing back. So there's some weird thing going on as to why they're doing this, and I don't know why, but it keeps me up at night, dammit. Chad: That sucks, because I won't think about this after we stop talking about it. Joel: I know. I probably won't, either. But it is very interesting. They have smart people over there. Why are they doing this? Why would they- Chad: I don't even know why they have the Simply Hired brand even up and running anymore, and why everything- Joel: Yeah. Chad: It makes no sense. Chad: If they were sneakily putting in Simply Hired postings as Simply Hired postings and did Google for Jobs to sneakily be away but in, be out but in Google for Jobs, which they're probably kind of doing with Glassdoor anyway at this point ... It's a total mystery to me. Chad: All right, whatever. Joel: Let's talk about automated scheduling. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Because I'm getting really scared about this boss watch and everything, and ages and Amazon. Chad: So GoodTime, who is a Firing Squad alum, just raised $5 million. Joel: They were the first one. No, no. Vervoe was first; they were second. Chad: They were close. They were one of the early- Chad: So yeah. $5 million, man. So what do you think about that? Seriously? Joel: The same thing I thought last year when they got $2 million, and probably the same thing I thought when we had them on Firing Squad. I think if the goal is to say let's raise some money to get our valuation up, build the product, knowing good and well that this is a feature that everyone is going to say we need to have, and or iCIMS, somebody's going to come along and say here's $30 million, give us your stuff and we're done, I'd say it's a great success. Joel: When they think in some bizarro world that they're going to build a standalone product that's going to be around in seven, eight, 10 years, I'd say good luck and this is an investment that's going to go down the toilet because they're going to get commoditized, everyone's going to have this automated scheduling thing. It seems like every week or month, someone's unveiling automated scheduling. Google's been doing it for awhile, Lever's been doing it for awhile. TextRecruit who we did- Chad: Just started. Joel: -who we did a Shred on. If you're not subscribed, you've got to subscribe to get this stuff. They've introduced automated scheduling. It's like Oprah, 'you get automated scheduling, you get automated scheduling.' And GoodTime had better build this bad boy up and sell it before it becomes worthless. Chad: It's a part of iCIMS now because of TextRecruit, so iCIMS doesn't need to buy GoodTime, right? They've got their own through an actual texting platform that does more than just schedule. So, yeah. From my standpoint, I'd like to see what the presentation is to the investors to actually get more money for this platform. Seriously, I'd like to see ... There's got to be fireworks and- Joel: There's got to be mad droppings of AI, deep learning, big data. They've got to be dropping all that stuff to get money. Because if it's simply like we'll help automate scheduling, that's not going to pan it out for the long term. Chad: And everybody's doing it or they're moving that way anyway, hence TextRecruit. So if you don't sell soon, you're just going to be one of the others who do it. And the problem is that's all you do. All these other platforms, that's a part of what they do. It's just a piece of what they do, but that's all you do. Ouch. Joel: I got nothing after that, dude. We out? Chad: We out. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Slack #Upwork #ZipRecruiter #Google #GoogleHire #Amazon #LinkedIn #SimplyHired

Teg Grenager performed incredibly well on The Chad & Cheese Firing Squad Podcast. Now it's time to Show and Tell with The Chad & Cheese's new DemoCast. #Uncommon #Programmatic #AI #MachineLearning #Video

LIVE from TAtech in Las Vegas, the boys break some news about what happened at Workopolis after Indeed acquired the company. "Drop your laptop and company property at the door on the way out." What else are those idiots talking about? - Participation certificates - clever millenials - Careerbuilder dumpster fire update - Indeed Jail update - Here's a brand, there's a brand - everyone is rebranding - Gollum visits - Anyone need sales people and developers? - BEER Enjoy. And be sure to visit this podcast's exclusive sponsor, Nexxt. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Chad: This, The Chad & Cheese Podcast brought to you in partnership with TA tech. TA tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit tatech.org. Chad: Okay, Joel, quick question. Joel: Yep. Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates, or your texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah, I know. I call it our Pavlovian dog reflex of text messaging. Joel: Yeah, that's probably why text messaging has a fricking 97% open rate- Chad: What?! Joel: Crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which, are all great reasons why The Chad & Cheese Podcast love text to hire from Nexxt. Joel: Love it! Chad: Yep. That's right. Nexxt, with the double X, not the triple X. Joel: So, if you're in talent acquisition. You want true engagement and great ROI, that stands for return on investment, folks. And, because this is The Chad & Cheese Podcast, you can try your first text to hire campaign for just 25% off. Boom! Chad: Wow! So how do you get ths discount, you're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell them, Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You go to chadcheese.com, and you click of the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long URL to remember. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Just go where you know chadcheese.com, and Nexxt, with two X's. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news. Brash opinion. And, loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Who listens to the show? Who knows who the hell we are? That's awesome. Chad: About five of you, that's good. Joel: That's awesome! Joel: So, for those that don't know, we typically start our show with shout outs. Chad: Typically, yes. Joel: And, we normally don't start with shout outs at the TA tech show, but we're going to try something new. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We could fail miserably, but we're going to try it. Chad: No, I don't think this is going to fail miserably at all, because the first shout out is going to go to- Joel: Well, tell them how it's going to work. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: So, at the show, we do a podcast, we can't give away stuff, right. So, here today if you get a shout out, you get a beer. If you don't drink, we have Peeps. So, if you want Peeps- Chad: You can have a Peep. Joel: ... you can grab a Peep, and you can take anything from Nexxt that you want. Everybody understand? We're good? Chad: Except for Steve Kraut, because nobody wants him. Joel: And, he's already drunk, so he doesn't need anymore beer. Okay. Alright. I'm ready. I think we're ready for shout outs. Chad: Yeah. So, if you've listened to the podcast before, you know Joel hates millennials. Joel: Hate those entitled little bastards. Chad: Hates millennials, but we got a lot of them listening, and I think they just love the pain of getting through the show as Joel hates on them. Anyway, one of our- Joel: They have a sense of humor though. Chad: ... millennials- Joel: ... which, is good. Chad: Yes. One of our millennial listeners actually gave us personalized certificates of participation. Joel: We got a trophy from the millennial generation, which is very nice. So, to Kyle from Hireology- Chad: Is it Hireology? Joel: This beer and shout out is for you, my friend. Chad: Yeah. That was funny shit. That was very funny shit. Good job. Kyle: I'm actually not old enough to drink. No, I'm just kidding. Chad: You're in Vegas. Joel: This Peeps for you, baby. Chad: This Peeps for you. Kyle: Thank you. Chad: Next. Where's Thad at? Joel: Next, get it, I saw what you did there. Chad: Yeah. Where's Thad at? Thad's not here? Okay. Crowd: He's CEOing. Joel: He's CEOing. Chad: CEOing. Aw, that sucks. Joel: That's alright. We'll get him later. Well, we can embarrass him when he's not here, though. Chad: Yeah. So, he's the only CEO that I know, who does a Gollum impression, and just he loves it. Hopefully, we can get him to do a Gollum impression, like a promo for the show. Joel: Go up to Thad and say, "Can I hear your Gollum impression." Chad: And, he gets excited. Joel: Yeah. He's very into- Chad: He loves to do the- Joel: ... it. Chad: ... Gollum impression. Joel: Get your Lord of the Rings geek on with Thad the CEO ... the new CEO- Chad: New CEO. Joel: ... of the new brand, which we'll talk about later- Chad: Yes. Joel: ... of the new brand -it rhymes with kangaroo. Chad: There he is. Joel: Alright. Chad: Come on. Joel: Thad! Come on up, buddy. Chad: Come up. Hey, so we've got something for you if you agree to do- Joel: A little Gollum. Chad: ... a Gollum promo- Joel: Just a little Gollum. Chad: ... promo would you do something. [crosstalk 00:04:58] Yeah? Okay. Give him the mike. Joel: He's closer to you. Gollum, everyone. Chad: Gollum, everyone. You got to use your hands. Thad: I got to use my hands. Chad: Yeah, because you're freaking. Thad: (in Gollum voice) Yes, me precious. Yes. Do these precious candidates me wants it so sweet precious. Yes. Joel: This Guinness is for you, Thad. Thank you. Chad: He got it. Joel: Very nice. Very nice. Chad: I love it! Hey, we need you to do a Chad & Cheese promo for us, too. Joel: If that doesn't say future IPO, I don't know what does. Chad: Oh, last but not least, where's Darren from hiQ? There he is. Joel: Everyone knows they're fighting LinkedIn, right? Chad: Right. Joel: Right, in court, and their spending more money than they probably have. Chad: Public data. Joel: We think we owe them a debt of gratitude for fighting Goliath ... probably fighting for a lot of you as you stand on the sidelines. Mr. Kaplan this is for you. Darren: I appreciate it thanks. Joel: And, good luck. Darren: Thank you. Joel: You'll need it. Chad: Very good luck. Who does not feel like they're going to be impacted by a negative ruling on this? Joel: Who's a non-scraper, or relies on anything scraped- Chad: Who doesn't think they're going to get- Joel: ... previously scraped, or soon to be scraped. Chad: ... payback right? So, if you're not behind these guys, I mean get behind these guys. They really believe the future of what we do depends on these types of rulings. Joel: So, we're going to get to the show. Now, we like an active audience, so if you have questions while we're talking, comments, or just want a Guinness, and want to try your shot at it ... or, a Peep ... ask a question, be interactive. We have- Joel: Seven more, and what doesn't go out to you, comes in to our bellies, so there you go. Chad: Soon to be six, by the way. Joel: What are we talking about first rebranding? Chad: Yeah ... well, let's talk about the new CEO of DICE. Joel: Sure, we know nothing about him, but they have a new CEO. Actually, by the way, since we're in Vegas right, okay, anyone here from CareerBuilder? Oh, good. We can talk about them. Okay, et's say over under that Matt Ferguson is still CEO in twelve months. Anyone say, under? Chad: Under hands. Joel: So, everyone else says more than a year? Chad: More than a year. Joel: No one is participating, you all suck. Chad: Come on. Crowd: Two years. Joel: Two years. Okay. Chad: Two years. Joel: That's over. Over a year. Okay, one person had the balls to play the game. Thanks everybody. Okay. Dices new CEO, what do we know about him? Chad: Not much other than he's got- Joel: He's got a hell of a resume. He's a Harvard grad. Maybe Navy guy. Maybe Air force. Tech guy. Has no experience in our industry. Historically, that doesn't go very well. Chad: No. Joel: But, we'll see how it goes. Chad: Yeah. So, we were at conference earlier this week, and we went to the Dice booth, and what was the reaction from the people behind the booth. Joel: Well, there was a salesperson, and saw our name badges which is Chad & Cheese, and it was sort of hang head like oh no, Chad & Cheese- Chad: It was an oh shit. Joel: ... and she passed us over to an executive, who then pushed us off to PR. Chad: Because, we asked if we could get the new CEO on the podcast. That being said- Joel: We'll get him on. We'll get him on. Chad: Re-branding. Joel: Rebranding. Who's rebranded in the last 12 months? Chad: He got a new logo. Joel: Geez, what a bunch of active participants. Crowd: He did. Chad: Nexxt. Joel: Nexxt. Chad: Nexxt. Joel: Now, do we all know why they rebranded? Bed, Bath, and Beyond called and said here's a bucket of money, and so they sold it to them, and became Nexxt. Boy this crowd is awful, dude. Chad: Tens of millions of dollars. So, Pando, Snag, now, Talroo ... (What? Joel: You guys are really down like what the hell is going on? Was lunch that heavy? It was just a salad and a sandwich for God's sakes. Alright we will continue to talk and look at your blank faces. Okay. This is great. We're giving beer out, people. Okay. What do we think about rebranding? Anything? Chad: So, there's a shit ton of pivoting that's happening, right, and I think that's one of the reasons why we're seeing it. Any other organizations in the room other than those- Joel: They're not participating. We need to stop saying, "Will anyone vote", or say anything to us. We're just going to talk to you. Chad: Okay. Joel: So, Talroo, we know from talking to Thad from the SHRM Talent conference, is that they wanted to be more of a technology focused brand. Jobs2Careers is kind of a pigeon hole of weird jobs and careers, so they thought we'll take talent and recruitment, bam, Talroo. Makes sense right? Going to be tough to get that off ... anyway that's going to be tough for me to remember, because I think of kangaroo, or I think of something else. And then, Pando is like a panda. So, we're all sort of animals but not animals. Chad: PandoLogic. Yeah. Pandoroo. Joel: Pandaroo. That's right. Talroo merges with Pando for Taldo something. Anyway. I think a lot of it is being driven by Google, and getting into the job space, and a lot people realizing that technology is the way that we need to go. So, if you have a job search specific URL, I think, that you're starting to think about how do we rebrand ourselves, and that's at least one example ... well two examples. Real Match kind of says we're matching, and Pando says nothing, so they said it'll be programmatic. Chad: No. That was different play though, because they were in one market, and then they started to pivot to the employer side, too, right. So, they've been focusing on the vendor side, then they went toward the employer side. So that was a different play. Joel: Although Pando is making it real confusing, because they have PandoLogic, and they have PandoIQ. Chad: But, it's all Pando. Joel: And, if Terry was here, he might be able to explain it, but I can't. I don't understand it. Chad: He'd just be glaring at you right now. Joel: Yeah. Chad: But, then you take a look at Snag, which I think ... I mean, that's been an interesting change- Joel: Anyone from Snagajob here? Chad: No. Joel: No. You all know Snagajob though, right? Hourly retail, those kinds of jobs? Chad: So, I think that's one of the bigger changes. Joel: So, why did they rebrand? Chad: They rebranded, I think, mainly to get job out of their name, but to be able to show that their model was changing, and that it's not just about obviously the old world of posting. They call it the uber factor. It just makes sense for some of these jobs ... and, I think it will scale to not just the high turnover or high volume types of jobs ... but, you'll see it scale to all types of jobs, but this is the hardest problem to work on, and I think organizations like Snag, like Jobalign, like Talentify- Joel: Shiftgig. Chad: Yeah. I mean they're something. Joel: The CEO of Snagajob said to me, "Nobody wants to snag a job anymore. They want to snag a shift." Chad: A gig. Joel: They want to work for multiple companies. They want to have an uber type experience where they switch. I'm on for working. I'm off because I'm doing whatever millennials do, young people do. And then, businesses, restaurants can say I need seven waiters for tonight, who's on the platform, who's ready to go, call them in, shifts done, snag handles all the payments so the restaurant or the businesses don't have to do any of that. So, they're the most fascinating rebrand to me, because they're rebranding because they're entire business is changing and the way that people look for work in their market is changing drastically. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Say again? Crowd: Are they going roll out an app? Joel: Are they going to roll out an app? Yes. So, they are now snag.co, but you will only see it in markets that they are beta testing right now. So, if you live in Richmond, Virginia, or Washington, D.C. will be their first big market, you won't see it, but it will all be app based. Just like Uber if your familiar, when you call a car or you're a driver, it'll all be mobile app native based. Chad: So, pay through the app ... again, it's one of those situations where you don't have one job at one company, you can actually pick up gigs at multiple companies. Joel: And, they even have badges. Like they have a burger flipper badge, so if you're thing is making burgers then you'll work at Five Guys and McDonald's, whatever, you can have a badge that says I am a burger flipper. Chad: Right. Joel: So, a company, or a restaurant knows that they'll hire you and you've been approved with this badge that you're a good cook, or burger flipper. Chad: But, we're seeing a change. Overall, from job board kind of ... I guess you could say platform ... and, being able to evolve into Nexxt what was beyond to Nexxt more of a data warehouse, different types of products. Joel: It really puts the job posting thing on its head a little bit. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Because, you're not posting jobs anymore, you're just going out and hiring people that want to work shifts for a certain job. I don't know if you can do that for nurses, accountants ... pretty much anything technically I guess you could have a model like that. HR Block could say we need 50 accountants for the next three months, and come on in and we'll pay you through the app, and you don't have to be an employee. We'll see if that takes hold, but Snag is certainly putting their money on the hourly workforce being a shift based workforce going forward. Chad: All on the blockchain. No, just kidding. Just kidding. Oh, by the way- Joel: Paid with Bitcoin. Chad: ... where's by blockchain guys at? Okay. Joel: Who is was in the blockchain session? Chad: Know how to run PowerPoint. Joel: Who was annoyed by the PowerPoint not being like finished. Okay. Good. Good. Me too. Chad: Something as complicated as blockchain, make sure you do the easy stuff well like on the PowerPoint. Joel: Click here to add text. Chad: Good stuff. Joel: What else we got for this vivacious group of folks? Chad: I think they're waiting for the meat, which is CareerBuilder. Joel: Oh, CareerBuilder? Who's heard our podcast on CareerBuilder, and kind of knows what's going on at CareerBuilder, or has worked at CareerBuilder and knows what's going on at CareerBuilder, and just wants to ... Okay. Joel: So, CareerBuilder is kind of melting down. A lot of sources that I have, and Chad have, have talked to us about what's going on at CareerBuilder. For those of you who don't know, they were bought by a private equity company called Apollo Global about a year, year and a half ago I guess. They got a Groupon. Got the business at about half price. We talked about that at one of the shows. They got a good discount on the business. Joel: So, anyway, as private equities companies will do, they walk in, where's the cost, where can we cut, where can we maximize profitability, and apparently that process is happening in a pretty bad way. So, the first thing that I got wind of was a lot of executives ... like long term ... If, you're a member of headhunter.net, CareerBuilder bought them in the late 90s maybe 2000 to 2001, they had employees like Richard Castellini, Chris Foreman ... I think is another one ... no, that's not right. I'll look up the name real quick, unless you have it there. Joel: So, they're losing executives that are long time executives, or they're shifting them into other roles, which is pretty drastic, because the culture there ... if you know CareerBuilder ... it a little bit fratty. The upper level guys they kind of have an all boys club demeanor about them. A lot of them are going away, which is probably why I think Ferguson won't be there much longer. I'm sure he has a contract that says, you'll be here for this amount of time, and then, I'm assuming he'll be gone. That's my guess. I don't know for sure. Joel: The other thing that we know is that their development team ... what I've heard ... is about down to 50% of what it used to be- Chad: Who needs developers? Joel: ... and, the ones that are left are looking for a job pretty aggressively, and will be gone as soon as they get another job. So, yes, if you're looking for developers go search the Atlanta, Georgia area, which is where a lot of them are. I don't think they'll have trouble getting jobs. My guess is Apollo just doesn't really care. My guess is all the businesses that they have, that they've purchased over the years, the WorkTerras, the Broadbeans, that they'll be gone. They'll be auctioned off to the highest bidder, and they'll maximize profit with the corps business being job postings. At that point, I think they'll sell it to ... who knows? Indeed, or I don't know. Chad: Their portfolio, they have 70 different products. I think one of CareerBuilder's biggest issues over the years is they really have messaging for 70 different products. How easy is it to sell four or five different products, let alone 70, right. There has been focus from here to there, but they continue to change product names, combine products, morph them into something entirely different. I mean, just from talent acquisition friends that I talk to, I mean it's like they don't even know what's being sold. So, it's like the target is moving constantly, and messaging just sucks, marketing sucks. If that sucks, well I mean sales is going to be harder. They are very tenacious, very large sales group of what now? Like 800 or so? Joel: Oh, the sales group? So, the last round that I heard ... I think at their height, I heard about 1400 sales people. Some of you can probably confirm or deny that. The latest round of what I heard, they had 800 sales people, and the lay off was of 120. There's some really bitter mofo's from that 120. I've heard comments about these are people that bled blue and orange. They were fired by an automated message apparently. They were let go without really much care or concern. So, there are a lot of really mad sales people. Again, if you're looking for sales people, go to LinkedIn, see who's there. Even if they're still there, they probably could be looking because they're probably fearful of their job's future. Chad: Who does firing by automated messaging? Anyone in this room? Joel: It's very efficient though. Chad: Okay. I was just going to make sure that we didn't have to shoot anybody. I mean that's the dumbest shit ever, right. Seriously. What's that? [crosstalk 00:19:56]. And, bye, have a nice day, right. Joel: I mean, the President fires people through Twitter. What the hell. Speaking of firing, should we move on from CareerBuilder, and talk about Workopolis' blood bath? Chad: Not yet. Joel: Okay, we'll hold off- Chad: We're going to get there. Joel: Alright. Chad: So, the El Chapo thing, I thought was funny- Joel: Okay. Chad: ... as Hell. So, there's a minute of like [crosstalk 00:20:24]- Joel: Alright, who's the El Chapo audio from the podcast? Chad: El Chapo audio? Okay. Joel: It's pretty entertaining. Chad: Some of you. It's really funny. I mean, they're talking about President's Club- Joel: Which is an annual trip. Chad: Annual trip- Joel: That they pick to reward- Chad: Supposed to go to Cabo. Supposed to go to Cabo. And, we can't go to Cabo this year guys, sorry, because El Chapo is not there anymore. No shit. This is what he says. El Chapo is not there anymore, and the whole region is destabilized because this cat is not in the region. It's laughable. I mean, even on the recording, you can hear sales people laughing at this bullshit reasoning behind it. Joel: The delivery was pretty funny, too, not just the content. Chad: Yeah, delivery was funny. But, you talk to the coms guy, and he said they are not going to have- Joel: Yeah. So, there's some conflicting story. So, the one story is there was a company called ... with Ferguson talking about hey the annual trip is canceled this year apparently sales people were given money in return for the trip. Allegedly everyone was okay with that. I guess some of them were. Some of them weren't. Which, why the audio that we have contradicting the cancellation, and saying it was just postponed until El Chapo's dismantling of the Mexican government or whatever happens. So, it's going to happen. So, we have some real conflicting data. Anyone here from CareerBuilder or used to be at CareerBuilder that wants to confirm what happened, that's perfectly fine with me, but that's the story that I've gotten from my sources. Chad: Ridiculous. Oh, so that being said- Joel: And, they also canceled the auto allowance I've heard. Chad: Yeah. Joel: For the sales people. Apparently there was like a $5,000 auto allowance for gas, miles, whatever. And, sales people counted on that income right, $5,000 extra in income, they just axed that without any warning. I do know that they have a new COO, who I'm sure is an Apollo lackey. Chad: Yes. Joel: And, she came in and they typically give raises in July and December I believe, and they said, "Well, we got to hold off until April," Chad: Postponing. Joel: Postponing for postponing the raises. Chad: Yep. Joel: So, everyone was kind of cool for a few months. They announced the raises, and apparently they were much lower than what people had ever expected, or was sort of traditional, which led to much of the exodus ... particularly with the development team- Chad: Needless to say, morale is low- Joel: Morale is in the shitter. Chad: Who needs sales people? Who needs sales people? There's a pool out there now, right. Pool of blood. Joel: I've had multiple competitors tell me that they have CareerBuilder people in their interview process. [crosstalk 00:23:08] You might be too late at this point. Chad: I doubt it. Joel: Well. There'll be more. Chad: More rounds to come. So, yeah. Indeed jail. Joel: That's your lane. Go for it. Chad: So, we talked ... earlier this week, it was funny. Just an impromptu conversation with Tim Sackett, you know Tim Sackett he's been in the industry for a very long time on the talent acquisition side of the house, and he was thrown into Indeed jail. What does that mean? You guys probably know. Who here has been thrown into Indeed jail? Joel: For a beer, what's Indeed jail? Anyone? Chad: Anyone? Nobody knows what Indeed jail is? Joel: Yes. Chad: He know- Joel: He knows. Chad: Come on. Come get it. Come get it, because we talked about it. Joel: Tell us what Indeed jail is. Chad: Indeed jail. Joel: He's not going to say. Chad: He's not going to say. Joel: People are so scared of Indeed, like they have a bunch of mobs. Chad: [crosstalk 00:23:56] afraid of Indeed, they've already kicked you out. I mean why ... why fucking be scared. Joel: This is for you because you told us. Chad: Come on up! Joel: You don't have to say anything. I just want to give a beer away. Chad: So, anyway in this case, and I've heard many cases especially on the vendor side. Obviously they're not going to take your money anymore. Joel: Cheers. Chad: Not going to take your money anymore, because of quality issues, right. Quality issues, which means they think your jobs suck. That was the case with Tim Sackett and his company, but they said you can rectify this. He asked first, hey can I rectify this? Tell me what's wrong, we'll fix it, and then we won't have these quality problems, and they're like no we can't do that. It's almost like it's part of our algorithm- Joel: It's out of our hands. Chad: ... yeah, it's out of our hands. We can't do that. That tech says no. Unless, we do what? You pay us. Unless you pay us. Unless you sponsor. But, that's the first step to what? To getting your ass kicked out in the first place, right. So, we're seeing this with companies who are paying and in this case they are- Joel: Tim's a staffing. Chad: They're on the staffing side. So, first we saw vendors go. Staffing is definitely on their way out. And, we're also hearing from sources on the corporate side, that if you're not paying enough money, your jobs are going to go dark, which means you're going down. Joel: Yeah. So, even if you're paying, and you're okay, they want you to pay more by telling you it's the black email, right. They get an email, your jobs have gone black, or dark. Chad: Yeah. Gone dark. Joel: So, you pay more, and they'll come back to light. Indeed is doing some really crazy shit. Chad: Bring it, what do you want [crosstalk 00:25:46]. I'm just amazed. John's like how the hell- Joel: True or false. Black emails. Crowd: Not sure. Joel: Shutting off paying customers in the staffing industry. Crowd: Oh yeah. Joel: Shutting off job boards who are paying for placement. Absolutely. Thank you for confirmation. You want a beer? Crowd: Yeah. Joel: Alright. Chad: Yes. And that's legit right there. Good man. So, again, there's opportunity to be had. Joel: Thank you [crosstalk 00:26:19]. Crowd: Cheers. Joel: You are a brave man. Did you notice what he just did? Chad: I love it. Joel: Okay. Alright. Chad: I love it. So, anyway. There's dollars to be had out there, is what we're trying to say. There are engineers. There are sales people. And, there are dollars to be had out there, because there are plenty of pissed off people who have money. People who are spending 75 grand a month, 25 grand a month ... it doesn't matter I mean there's ... Yeah, I know. Exactly. I almost choked. $75,000 a month. Sorry. Joel: Did someone really tell you 75? Chad: Yes. Joel: A month? A month. Chad: A month. Sorry. Joel: Wow, okay. Chad: Last night when we had beers on the roof, I got some really good intel. When you have beer, you get good intel. So, yeah, those are some of the things that we're seeing from Indeed. So, that's an interesting shift, because they just are saying they don't want your money, and they're obviously not playing well with Google, which means their jobs are not in Google, and they're spending a shit ton of money on advertising. We saw them on the Final Four. From my standpoint, where is this sustainable. That's a lot, and most of that traffic came from where? Where's Alex at? Where'd that traffic come from, that Indeed traffic? It was a brand of traffic from Google, right? Alex: Branded terms. Chad: Branded terms. Joel: Branded terms. Chad: People were going to Google- Joel: To search Indeed. Chad: ... searching on Indeed jobs. So, what does that mean long term? It means you have to continue to spend that money to get ... because, everybody is going to go to Google in the first place. We talked about ... we do it. It's what we do. It's behavior. So, therefore, if we're going to Google, and it demonstrates with all those branded terms that people are going to Google, you're going to have to continue to pay the cash. How did that work for Monster and the blimp, and the Super Bowl ads, and shit, how'd that work? Anybody remember? Joel: He must have flown in the blimp. He's having a good time over there. Chad: Anyway, that's a lot of what we're seeing with Indeed. You want me to talk about that, or you want to go to- Joel: Also, I think it's changed the referral model. An update on that. Chad: Alright. Joel: For whatever reason, the referral model makes perfect sense, at least to me. You have a friend, they need a job, this company is looking for a job- Chad: Most people. Joel: ... to fit your skills. Hey if you refer them to use, they get a job after 90 days, we'll give you five grand. To me, that makes perfect sense. That should work. That's an affiliate marketing program that should work. Unfortunately, it does not work in our space. Some of your are old enough to remember H3, Refer.com- Chad: Jobster. Joel: Jobster, the original Jobster of the 20 business models they had while Jason Goldberg was there. Chad: $46 million. Joel: And, Indeed, two years ago launched Crowded ... or, Indeed Crowd, whatever it was- Chad: Indeed Crowd. Joel: ... which was a referral model. They emailed you jobs in your area. If you knew someone, you forwarded the job to the person. If they applied, and got the job, you got anywhere from 2,000 to 5,000 I think was the height of their payment, and this past month as of May 17th, I think they're shutting it down totally. So, if Indeed can't figure out how to make a referral model work, I don't know if anyone can. However- Chad: Who's in the referral business here? Joel: ... Ladders, anyone from Ladders? Ladders has just launched their referral marketing program with payments of ten grand to paid referrals, so maybe ten grand is the lucky number and they'll make it work, but history is not on their side. Chad: Yeah. You talked to Hans. He was the CEO of H3, it came down to you can lead a horse to water. I mean, you just can't make them refer their friends to goddamn jobs. Unfortunately, that's the way it works. Nobody has been able to obviously tap that. Joel: So, if you're thinking of a referral business, don't. Yes? Crowd: Regarding referrals, I've been in the staffing business for ten years, I can tell you the problem is not money because we paid referring [inaudible 00:30:22] to, right, because you don't want to refer a friend to another bad friend or bad entrepreneur or bad ... you know so there is referral within recruiting, to recruiters, {inaudible} Chad: Right. Crowd: But, I think in the self serve job [inaudible 00:30:35] space, you're really looking at who are you referring [inaudible 00:30:41] and what's going to happen. That's why you really can't figure it out. Chad: So, trust, essentially. Joel: Was that a question or just a comment? Crowd: It's a comment slash question. I'm getting back to that. How do we raise the trust on job seeker? Chad: Good question. Come get your beer. Joel: I think it's tough like if you have a friend who's single, you know what they look like, you kind of know if they're fun or whatever, and you know they're a single person ... like there's a level of trust that you say, you'll get along with them. In jobs, oh I know if you're an accountant, but I don't know if you're a good accountant. Chad: A date could last one night though. That's the short term job is something different. Not to mention, a lot of these platforms expect non-recruiters to get in the system, and actually work the system. And, we've got other shit to do. That's just not going to happen. [crosstalk 00:31:38] let's crowd source this. Joel: It doesn't scale very well either. You got to wait 90 days. I mean the tracking of a human being has to be involved with sort of the quality of the candidate, and I mean it's just a bad ... It obviously doesn't work. I don't know why exactly. It technically should but it doesn't, and my guess is that Ladders will close up their thing in a year or two, and someone else will try it. Chad: How many pivots has The Ladders been through? They're still doing a ton of content. They're adding this. Joel: They're doing the TMZ thing. So, if you to The Ladders on their new section, they literally have a journal ... they have a team of journalists that write articles that are sort of TMZ-ish, but they're for the recruitment space or for job posting. Chad: Which you like. Joel: Well, it's content. I mean, look, for many years you guys had job postings which served as content, which served as traffic from Google, right. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Google would index this stuff, people could find it, and there's traffic. So, Google for jobs launches and that goes away, right, so you have to find a way to get content that people will continue to go to your site and hopefully click on jobs, and apply to jobs. So The Ladder strategy was simply, let's hire actual journalists to write stories about jobs and careers, and what knot. And, they TMZ it a little bit so people share it, it gets viral, hopefully get it from that. I think it works. I think it's super expensive to have a team of journalists writing good copy, original copy, but for The Ladders that is their strategy currently. Chad: Does anybody have content ... I mean just driving your own content ... other than jobs? No. No. Bueller. Bueller. Crowd: Yeah, we had podcasts and other content. Joel: Podcasts are great content. Chad: Amazing. Especially if you do transcripts. That's very smart. Joel: Yes. Crowd: Yes, we have a podcast. We do transcripts. We do six events a year, and we have website articles about job hunting [inaudible 00:33:35]. Joel: And, are those good traffic drivers from Google? Crowd: They are. They are big, big factors in growing our audience. And, the podcast ... you and I were talking about this last night, and the unexpected benefit where original job for it ... it created a national audience for us. 85% of the downloads from the podcast come from out of state- Joel: So, you've been around a while. Is it fair to say that the traffic that job postings used to create has sort of faded, and you've been replacing that with stuff like content, original content? Crowd: The content supplements the job posting. Job seekers ... they're drawn by the ... well, the newsletter of job postings that drives them to the site, and the jobs themselves. Joel: How important is email to the business? Crowd: Really important. Joel: Do you send out- Crowd: It's our second source of traffic after organic. We collect referrals. We've got a weekly newsletter. Joel: Yeah. Email for a lot of job sites has taken the place of [crosstalk 00:34:27] it's like how many emails can we send out and generate buying lists, et cetera. Chad: Workopolis. Joel: Workopolis? Any Canadians in the room? Chad: I don't think Thunder Bay counts. Joel: So, you know Workopolis. Chad: I don't think Thunder Bay counts. [crosstalk 00:34:49]. Just so everybody knows, beer is provided by JobAdX. Joel: And, the Peeps too. Chad: And, the Peeps. Joel: Don't forget the Peeps. Chad: And the Peeps. Joel: So, Indeed acquired Workopolis recently. Workopolis is a pretty well known Canadian job site. Is that fair to say, well known. It was sort of a mystery to me as to why they did it. Some information has come to light is as to why, it seems to be a little bit of a competitive thing. The word is that there was at least one other Indeed competitor vying for Workopolis [crosstalk 00:35:27] that Indeed did not want. Well, we don't exactly know. Chad: We don't know. Joel: Sources tell us Zip Recruiter was probably in the bidding. It makes a lot of sense for Indeed not to want Zip Recruiter- Chad: Look at him smiling. He is smiling his ass off. He's like yeah. You're right. You know it. No comment. You didn't have to comment. I saw that smile from way over here. Joel: Sources say that ... and, it does make a lot of sense. Chad: Come get a beer, Matt. Joel: Or, a Peep. Chad: Or, a Peep. Joel: So, yeah. The sad story about this is there were about 50 Workopolis employees apparently that went into work. They kind of knew something was up, but they were given their walking papers that same day. Apparently there was actually a lot of employees to get their packet of bye-bye information. They were given some bit of a severance. I think it was three weeks for every year- Chad: From what we hear it was definitely fair. It's just how it was done was just ... it was very interesting. It was an all hands meeting. Alright, everybody come in. We've got a new owner right. We've got a new master, so everybody's coming in kind of unsure, on pins and needles- Joel: This is Linda from Indeed. Chad: Yeah. From my understanding, Indeed didn't even show up. It was just done- Joel: Oh, nice. Chad: It was done right there- Joel: Not even a video conference. Chad: Nope. Nope. Well, why? I mean, you just bought somebody, hey you go fire your people. [crosstalk 00:36:49]. They didn't send an automated message. That's exactly right. Joel: What's better no message, or an automated message? Okay. Chad: Yeah. Exactly. They're never really good, but still. Anyway it was pretty much on your way out of the door, we're going to be collecting your laptops, your badges, your whatever the Hell. It was right then, and I can't imagine the shell shock that some of those employees still have. Chad: So, if you're in the Canadian market, obviously there are some very good people that used to work for Workopolis. Joel: My own speculation is Google for jobs is not in Canada yet, and this was also partly a way to build the motor around Canada as well as they could by not letting Zip or whoever else into the market place. Chad: Yeah, I think it was more of a defensive measure on Zip. I don't see them fending off [crosstalk 00:37:44]. Joel: And Indeed or Google. There might have been a little bit of that. Google's going to get into Canada. Chad: Oh, yeah. They're going to be launching in Canada probably ... from what we hear ... in the next couple of weeks. So, Google for jobs in Canada supposed to launch in the next couple of weeks. Joel: Will they have a two pane job search? Chad: Oh, Jesus. Where's are Indeed guy? Joel: He left. He's out. Chad: What the hell is up with that two pane job search bull shit? So, Monster is doing the same thing. I think we did ... maybe the clarification will come through. We believe, or at least we thought at first, that they were actually doing payments ... for all their PPC stuff ... it was going to happen on the apply click, which makes sense, because again you're sending the job seeker there, so you have an opportunity to actually acquire that job seeker, because it left the site- Joel: Everyone understand two pane search? Yeah, kind of, sort of. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Basically instead of like ... Indeed used to click a link and then you go to the job site of that job and then you probably stay there, you might go back to Indeed. Two pane is you stay on Indeed, they open up a separate window on Indeed and you just click through and see the jobs on the second pane- Chad: Which is very cool from a user standpoint, because you can really flip through jobs. I mean, you can pop, pop, pop, pop. I mean really get through it really quick- Joel: And, it's great for a pay per click business, because you can knock out those clicks real fast. Chad: So, Indeed, we know ... there's the pay per click is happening, and they're getting a shit ton more clicks and go figure ... what we hear is revenue is up ... I mean yeah, because it's much easier, which is not a bad thing on the candidate side, but for the employer who is trying to acquire candidates ... and, maybe that person is not perfect for that job. That's well and good. It should be my option, as an employer, to be able to pull that person in, and prospectively push them to another job, or at least invite them to apply to another job. That's my candidate. I'm paying money. Give me my goddamn candidate. That's not happening on Indeed. We're not sure just yet, we're looking for verification from the people over at Monster. And, Monster ... I mean, to be quite frank ... they've been very transparent about what they're doing. Sometimes, you know, it's not easy trying to get information out of people. Joel: It is a whole new Monster. We give them credit for that. Chad: Yeah. It is a whole new Monster. It's definitely a whole new Monster. Joel: Questions? Two more minutes? Anybody want a beer? Chad: Got two more beers. Joel: Got four beers left. Chad: Ask a question. Come on. Joel: And, a bunch of Peeps for questions- Chad: [crosstalk 00:40:16] I want a beer, I'm just not going to ask a question. Joel: ... comments. Chad: I'm going to go up in front of this crowd. This is bullshit. Okay. Joel: Question about AI automation, chat bots, so any major player. Chad: One of the funny things actually said earlier today- Joel: Start ups we like. Anything. Chad: ... was John, when John said, "What's the scariest page on the internet?" And, he popped up Google for jobs right. Joel: That's actually Chad's LinkedIn profile. Chad: Google for jobs. Wait a minute, my wife is on there. That's not cool. Joel: She's on your LinkedIn profile? Chad: Yeah. Joel: That's weak. Chad: I mean she's better looking than I am. Joel: That's weak. Chad: What's that? Joel: Brass rings- [crosstalk 00:41:02] is the scariest page on the internet. Chad: Oh, is the scariest thing. That's a good call. Joel: Any questions, comments. Chad: Any intel? Joel: This is Vegas, folks. Nothing. Peter: Okay, you guys had your chance. Let's have a round of applause for Chad & Cheese. Chad: Okay, okay. Before we go. Remember, when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing? Joel: Yeah, you know all about reflexes. And, then I brilliantly tied it to text messages 97% open rate, then I elegantly tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh, Chad, I can be elegant. Chad: Whatever, man. I know it's redundant. You already heard about text to hire, but you're still not using text to hire from Nexxt. Joel: What?! Chad: I know, man. Joel: Come on, man. Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again, this was all by elegant design. It's all about text to hire, and it's all about Nexxt. Joel: And, elegant design. So, go to chadcheese.com, click on the Nexxt logo, and get 25 ... yeah, I said 25% off your first text to hire campaign. Chad: Whoo! Joel: Engage better. Use text to hire from Nexxt. Two X's. Chad: Boo-yah! Chad: Thanks to our partners at TA tech. The Association for Talent Acquisition solutions. Remember to visit tatech.org. Chad: This has been The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And, be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more visit chadcheese.com. Oh, yeah, you're welcome. #TATech #Careerbuilder #Workopolis #Indeed #Millenials #Talroo #Jobs2Careers #JobAdX #Nexxt #LIVE

It's Valentine's Day week which means you can hear Barry White and feel the love in the air, even on The Chad & Cheese Podcast. This week: We start with a Google Love Trifecta! 1) Google for Jobs embraces its Latin lover 2) TMP loves sharing Google for Jobs stats 3) Is GoogleHire loving on AI resume search? Yes there's more LOVE... - HackerRank has 30 million new ways to find a lover and kill DICE - Why Nexxt fell out of love with Beyond.com - Unilever breaks up with Facebook and YouTube - Home Depot says loving yourself is best, it's all about Self Service ... plus more banter and snark than you can probably handle. Enjoy. And show our sponsors some love while you're at it. America's Job Exchange, Sovren, Ratedly and Catch 22 Consulting are single and ready to mingle ... with customers, baby! Oh, behave! Don't forget to register for TAtech Europe with the discount code TATECHTEN18 PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls; it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Are you ready to feel the love? Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Welcome to our Valentine's Day week show. This is the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's episode, Google for Jobs snuggles up with a Latin lover. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: We undressed why Beyond really changed it's name to Nexxt. And Home Depot tells job seekers to, "love yo damn self." It's warm and fuzzy time, folks. Get ready. Chad: Self love. Joel: But first, a little foreplay from our sponsor. Sponsor: Google, Lever, Entelo, Monster, Jibe. What do these companies and hundreds of others have in common? They all use Sovren technology. Some use our software to help people find the perfect job, while others use our technology to help companies find the perfect candidate. Sovren has been the global leader in recruitment intelligence software since 1996 and we can help improve your hiring process too. We'd love to help you make a perfect match. Visit Sovren.com, S-O-V-R-E-N.com, for a free demo. Joel: Beautiful, I'm just realizing that our shout outs are kind of angry ... Not very loving. So I don't ... Maybe this is love ... We're doing love the Chad and Cheese way. Chad: Love the Chad and Cheese way. Yeah, right out of the gate ... This isn't mean. My humble apologies goes to Nancy in Philly because, apparently, she blindingly devoted herself to Team Chad well before Ed did. And she actually showed me screenshot evidence. So Nancy, please accept my humble apologies. Not to mention also ... And she had a good question for you, Joel. Joel: Yeah? Chad: You saw that Gr8 People was funded this week and a good amount of it actually came from the Randstad Innovation Fund. Her question is, do you think Monster will play a role in Gr8 People? Because of that connection with Randstad? Joel: I think companies buy other companies to integrate other companies or kill companies or just loot the talent and yeah. And just walk away. I think in his case, although I'm not an expert on Gr8 People, the GR8 is awful, by the way ... It's like Jobg8's ugly sister. I don't have much of an opinion. You're a former employee of two of those companies. You probably have a much more insightful opinion than I do. Chad: I would say I probably do, I don't know that it's right. But yeah, I think Monster right now has enough problems of their own and they're focusing on the technology at hand, just at Monster, versus thinking about Gr8 People. I mean, I think there ae some good perspective plays that happened there, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon because Monster has to get their shit together. Hopefully, they'll get good co-presidents on board soon, we can only hope. Joel: Word. Chad: I really don't think that, right now, they can be that strategic because they have a ton of development that they have to before they can get their own products up and running and get in the snuff before they can start to look at Gr8 People, which is more of an applicant tracking system, CRM, Drip Campaign kind of. You know, it's got so much that's actually out there. And it's from the founders of Virtual Edge who sold to ADP. So, it's pretty stout product from my understanding. Bad URL, but fairly stout product. Joel: Monster's in that sort of ... You know when the oxygen drops in the airplane when you're going down and you give yourself the oxygen first before you worry about anyone else. That's kind of where Monster is right now. They need to oxygenate themselves first. Chad: That is awesome, that is awesome. Joel: Thank you, thank you. Chad: So there's your answer, Nancy. And that being said, 'cause I gotta continue to give Philly love, Ed says to Joel Cheesman, 100% that he's that shallow for choosing Team Chad and he also liked the Eli OBJ Dirty Dancing skit as his favorite commercial as well. So, as I had said before, very, very symbiotic .. me and the commercial. : You and your cronies mean nothing to me, okay my friend? Because ... A lot ... As we found, a lot of this love is not very deep. I got a big ... I got a couple, 'come on, man's this week. Chad: Yeah, we do, we do. Joel: So, we get this, I get this LinkedIn message from Remy Jung. It's J-U-N-G. Maybe it's Jung or Jong or Ung. We don't know. I won't mention the company, but he sends me a message that's very nice. Joel: So Chad and I have this private Facebook group where we share show ideas, so I shared this message from Remy and said, "Hey, this is a really nice message." Took a screenshot of the message he sent me on LinkedIn. Well, Chad turns around and sends me the same screenshot, but from his account. So, basically all Remy did was copy and paste the same message and just put my name or whatever, something to me. And then it was like, okay, well, I feel special not at all now. Joel: And then, David Zanesky from Monster, I will name him because we named him last week, loving on him a lot. He sends me a message, and I go, "Dude, please tell me David did not send you the same message." And he's like, "Yup, he did." Chad: He totally did. Joel: Okay, so you guys suck, but a lesson for sales or relationships or networking, don't just copy and paste when the two dudes that you're sending it, are doing a podcast together because there's a good chance they might be sharing that information with each other and then calling you out on the podcast, like I have. Chad: Joel had one comment after I shared my screenshot, "What a dick". I thought it was awesome. Remmie, David, come on guys. We love you, we love you. You can do better, you can do better. Joel: They look like millennials. This is such a millennial thing, like, I'm just gonna copy and paste the same message and send it to 100 friends and I've done my job. No, customize the message. Alright, moving on. Chad: Okay, so William Golden gets a #ChadCheese shout out. He's been listening for weeks, months. Thanks William. Also, Steven O'Donnell. Our Scottish game has doubled, I think, in the past few weeks. And Steven says ... I think this is awesome ... "I had seriously expected to dislike Chad ad Cheese, but heard it for the first time last night and it was excellent." That shit's funny. Joel: I think most people expect to hate this show when they first, you know, so. Chad: Yeah, it's funny. Joel: For whatever reason, if we can turn haters into lovers, that's a good thing. But yes, we are big in the Glasgow, Scotland area. And I'll send a quick shout out to Adam Gordon ... Chad: Oh yeah! Joel: ... from Canada.id and if you haven't heard the firing squad of their company, I highly recommend it. Although, I'm biased; it's our show. But, shout out to Adam. We appreciate it. And hopefully we'll see him in Dublin, or somebody from CanadaID in Dublin, 'cause we'll be there in about a month from now. Chad: Yeah, some pretty cool tech, pretty cool tech. Joel: Yeah, with TAtech ten, spelled out T-E-N, 18 for a 15% discount if you still have- Chad: So yeah, I made it easy. Go to chadcheese.com. There's a banner there for TAtech Europe and the actual discount code is below it. So all you have to do is copy the discount code, click on the banner, go to the ... It's done for you, man. I made it too damn easy. I'm not going through the whole WiFI password thing anymore. Joel: WiFi password? What the hell are you talking about? Chad: That's what the Tatech discount code [crosstalk 00:08:46] feels like a WiFI password. Joel: Oh, gotcha. Like, the 28 string password ... Gotcha. I'm with ya, I'm with ya. Sorry about that. Joel: Okay, shout out to the Job Board Doctor, probably our most loyal, longterm listener. Chad: Yup. Joel: He says we should talk more about how staffing firms hate Indeed Prime, Indeed staffing are, I guess, or product. So yeah, Job Board Doctor, you're probably right. We should talk more about that, and by the way, if you are in the staffing business ... If you wanna send us a note, go to chadcheese.com. Let us know how much you hate Indeed taking your money. We wanna hear from you. Chad: Yeah, staffing companies, I mean, we actually had last week's episode ... They were talking about how there was no way they were gonna give Monster their money because of Randstat ... They were gonna buy Randstat. What about Indeed? I mean their own buy, Recruit Holdings, who obviously has recruiting in their portfolio, not to mention Indeed Prime. So I mean, you're gettin' stepped on all over the place. So I think it's really hard to pick and choose as you move forward. You just have to focus on ROI. Joel: Isn't it the snake that eats it's tail and then it just dies because it's eating itself. Yeah, that's what it feels like. Anyway ... that's all the shout outs I got. You got anybody else? Chad: Matt Durney, apparently Indeed loves us in Europe. We got a tweet as he was in transit to Doha. I haven't heard a damn thing from the U.S. offices, but Europe loves us, so that's awesome. Joel: Well, that's good. Yeah, the U.S. doesn't hate us. They reached out to me this week. They have reached, apparently, 250,000,000 visitors per month on their job board. That's pretty amazing. Ten years ago, it was around 15,000,000 and they've increased that exponentially. So, you know, good for them. Chad: With all the gouging they've done with pricing lately, they better have something to show for goodness sake. So, yeah, I would expect some shit like that, right? Joel: You're such a hater man, such a hater. Do you sleep with one eye open? Because ... Chad: No, I'm not scared of- Joel: I mean, maybe the Indeed mafia's gonna show up ... Chad: I'm not scared of ... Okay- Joel: I'm not scurred. Chad: So, last but not least, I've gotta say, I've gotta say, Soda Stream reached out and last week, we gave them a hard time. They did an amazing ad and then it just kind of fizzled because they didn't do some kind of execution pieces right. So first and foremost, props to Soda Stream. No, no, no ... Props to Soda Stream for adding careers link to their website. I know, I can't believe I'm saying it either. Especially after a ton of cash got me excited to join the revolution. And then I didn't know how to join the god damn revolution. So they actually added a careers link to the bottom of their website. Joel: Corporate, corporate site? Chad: Yeah, yup, yup, yup. Joel: Well, if I had the firing squad fake clap loaded up, I would play it right now. That is ... I don't know if it's a good, great thing that a company of that size is finally putting careers link on their website. But hey, here we go 'cause I got it and you're excited about it and I know you're drinking from the Soda Stream right now. Chad: And last, but not least, wait a minute, Disability Solutions, Disability Solutions, if you go to chadcheese.com, you'll notice all of our podcasts, at least over the last three, four months or so, have been transcribed. So, that's all through a sponsorship with Disability Solutions. Thank you Disability Solutions for that sponsorship because everyone, even the hard of hearing, deserves to partake in the stupid shit we way. Everyone! Joel: Yes, yes. Stupidity should not be a right of just the able people. Alright, can we move on to the show now? As we've hit the 13 minute mark on this damn thing. Joel: Alright, Google is just continuing it's world domination of the employment space. SO, we've got a myriad of Google stuff to talk about. Which one do you want to start with? Chad: Let's go with the TMP piece that you found. Joel: Okay, so TMP, for those who don't know, is an agency that has a lot of media buying and management of companies' stuff. They're putting together, and have had put together, I guess ... They are doing a webinar next week, but they have put together a teaser of some of the information that they're finding out about Google for Jobs and how it's impacting user behavior. Joel: I wouldn't say there's anything mind-blowing in this. It's kind of stuff we thought would happen, like fewer people are going to the Corporate site because they can get the whole job on Google; the can quickly get it all on Google. But, one of the things that I think both of us found interesting was that 38 ... So, of new job seekers landing on job-level page, so they're going to the job site as opposed to like the homepage or like an intro employment branding page. So, it went up from 38% to 50%, so more new job seekers are landing on job-level pages in their job search queries, which is a good thing. I think ultimately Google wants you to have less steps to accomplish what you wanna accomplish. And it look's like 38 to 50%, they're starting to do that. Chad: Well, if you don't know who TMP is, you should flog yourself at this point. They're only, I think, the biggest advertising agency in the recruitment space. Joel: Hey, we have some newbies in the audience, man. I mean, they don't know. Chad: So, they should still flog themselves. Chad: So, I think the apply click behavior was huge. S0 since Google for Jobs launched, 35% of the job seekers clicked the apply button and that was a 20% jump. I mean that's huge, right? So being able to be better connected to job seekers, to jobs around them, and get to more relevant jobs, that's really the mission of Google Jobs. Instead of just throwing links out there, that send you to indiscriminate pages that are amazingly SCOed, right? They're actually focusing on delivering jobs that are relevant to your search quires. Joel: What I'd love to know, and I don't if TMP has this data, but I'll just go ahead and put it out there in case they do. I wanna know which job boards, because we know that when you search for a job, it'll show you all the places you can apply. So you can go CareerBuilder, Monster ... Whatever the job is. I wanna know which job board ranks the highest and in order from up to down of which ones are the most preferred by job seekers. Chad: So, shout out to Chris Grosso over at TMP man, I know you have your fingers in lot of data. If you have that data, my friend, let's share it with the world 'cause that's good stuff. Joel: Let's get him on the show. Chad: Oh, god yeah. Love Chris. Joel: We'll learn more. Oh, actually, he doesn't wanna come on, right? 'Cause of some corporate thing? Or he doesn't want to embarrass the TMP brand. Chad: I think if anybody could give TMP a wonderful, polished brand, there's no one better that Mr. Chris Grosso. Joel: That's probably true. Joel: Alright, so good information coming out. I'll add the news that Google for Jobs is open for be business in Latin America. Our friends in ... Wow. Chad: Lalalalalala. Joel: Oh my god. Now the real mafia is gonna come visit us. Not the Indeed mafia. Joel: Alright, anyway. So yeah, I think Mexico all the way down in terms of pretty much everywhere in Latin America ... If you search for a job now on Google you're gonna see ... Basically what you see for jobs in the U.S., North America, you see in Latin America. So, clearly to me, this says Google's kind of serious about this whole thing. The initial tests in the U.S have gone well. They're starting to roll this thing globally. Was it you that said Europe is a little bit scary. They're a little bit hesitant probably to unveil this in Europe because of the privacy laws? Chad: Yeah, 'cause of being sued and monopolies and ... That's why I think the switch in how they're serving up jobs and how you can apply to jobs is such a differentiator because instead of just providing jobs from companies from the corporate applicant tracking systems. They're doing this myriad kind of effect that the job seeker can do whatever the wanna go do. Wherever they wanna go through, if the wanna go to the applicant tracking system, if they wanna go to Glassdoor, if they wanna go to Indeed ... Well, they can't go to Indeed because they don't have their jobs there. But anyways, they have the pick, right? So there's not this whole monopoly thing going on and they're really feeding more traffic back into the market, right? So, I think smartly, very smart fr them, and a lot of this I think i coming from the lawsuits that are happening in the U.K. Joel: Yeah, I'm not sure what conclusion you came up with there. But yeah, Latin America, Google for Jobs. Have fun with that. Chad: It's the process. Joel: And lastly, you love this, resume search, AI. All the kids are doing it. Chad: Yeah, all the kids are doing it. So, apparently, OnGig, they posted the seven reasons why Google Hire is kicking ass and taking names. And I mean that's really more like a propaganda piece for OnGig to get out there. Joel: I was gonna say, we have debated that, and Google for Hire has some issues. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And we'll talk to Bogomil in Dublin over a few Guinness's and find out what's going on. But yes, their search, you really love this part. Chad: Yeah, number five was resume search's AI based. So, thus far, we know that the Google for Jobs, or the Google Jobs Discovery API has been there. We know that CareerBoard is using it. We know that Jibe is using it. We know that the companies are actually using it. And we know that it's giving much better contextualized type of search-based results which is awesome and that's exactly what the job seekers want and need. THey need more relevant job search. Chad: Now, we've been talking about ... and this is for months, when Google started coming out with this, that they're going to flip this and they're going to start doing AI search, machine based search for resumes. And that's what OnGig is saying here. They've been in the system; they're doing resume search and it feels like the same kind of API is happening, but it's just for resume. So that's pretty amazing. Joel: So one could guess that API for searching resumes is around the corner? Chad: I wouldn't count it out, that's for sure. I don't know 100%, but if I was a betting man, I would say hell yeah. 'Cause it just makes a hell of a lot of sense. And for companies like iCims ... So iCims is using the Google search for jobs. Google does search better than anybody, so why the hell wouldn't you use Google for resume searching as well? So, I think it just makes a hell of a lot of sense. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's unveiling in the coming months. Joel: Yup, iCims and Early Doctor, Career Builder, ZipRecruiter... I wouldn't be surprised to see it on their backend stuff. So yeah, that's a good analysis by us. I think that's something we can expect in the future. Chad: Agreed. Joel: Ready to move on? Chad: I am. Joel: Dice is fucked still. Their stock is not going up as they search fo a CEO and a buyer for the company, so things are still pretty bad there. So HackerRank, something Dice should have been 5 years ago, or before that, just got $39 of investment money and they continue to rise and Dice continues to fall. It's a real, it's a real sad story. Chad: It's ... yeah. Joel: It's a real tragedy. Chad: It's a real Shakespearean tragedy. Yeah, HackerRank is the reason why Dice is dead. I mean, even if DIce ... If they don't know they're dead yet- Joel: GitHub, I mean, there's a few of them, but yeah. Chad: Well, I mean ... Joel: Yeah, no doubt. Chad: I mean this is really the silver bullet right here, this puts them out of their misery. The thing that gets me is that Dice actually partnered with HackerRank. And it's interesting because I think, just from a parasitic standpoint, you know, to be able to try to drive all the candidates that are going to Dice into HackerRank makes a hell of a lot of sense. Because the way that the system works, you practice coding, you compete, and then you actually go through and find jobs. And that's a great way for companies to actually find candidates and their slogan, which is pretty cool, is to make the world flat, which means it shouldn't matter where you're located, what school you went to, what, you know, religion or you know, gender or any of that stuff. If you can code, you can code. It's more of a faceless skills-based process. And I think that is genius as we take a look at trying to hire into the future. Joel: I believe the educated among us like to call that Ameritocracy, if I'm not mistaken. Chad: Possibly. Joel: Based on your skill level is how you will be judged around the world. And HackerRank has tapped into whatever the psyche is of a developer, they have a underlying competitiveness that I think a lot of people don't think about. HackerRank has definiely tapped into that. I forget the company that we talked about a few weeks ago that is trying to do that with salespeople ... is trying to tap into that as well. And congrats to HackerRank and GitHub as well, the sharing economy, the open source projects that are out there. The tech recruiting space is such an interesting area. And it's really kind of unfortunate that Dice couldn't see the forest through the trees, I guess, and missed a lot of opportunities around this recruiting area. Chad: Yeah, they're dead in the water. Joel: Alright, let's hear a quick ad from our buddies at America's Job Exchange and talk about self-service at Home Depot's recruiting department. Chad: Love self-service. Sponsor: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP complIANCE. We've been helping our 1,000 plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly positive and effective diversity recruitment designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women, and minorities and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community-based organizations. Want to learn more? Call us at 866-926-6284 or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com. Chad: Love it. Joel: I just love self-service, Chad. Chad: I know you do. Joel: Grocery shopping, gas ... I do a lot by myself. Joel: Anyway, Home Depot is taking self serve to a whole new level. A story came out today actually, on the wires. THey're essentially, by pre-screening candidates, et cetera ... If they pass the pre-screening, they can self-schedule an interview at the company. And what's funny is ... So, for the audience, Chad and I were talking about this and you're like, "Oh, that's really cool." And I said something like, "It's automation, baby!" And you said, "It's not that automated, actually." And I said, "It is for the employers." And you said, "But not for the candidates." And I said, "Well, who cares about them?" So basically- Chad: That was all you said. Joel: That's basically the mentality among companies. Anyway, but yes, I think this is really cool. So instead of the old, you know, like ... Most people currently, they go through an interview and well, when can you come in? And they apply. And like the whole process. Just let the job seekers decide, you know, when they wanna come in. And then have someone on the recruiting side, "Oh, well we'll be here from 12:00-5:00pm." Pick a time for ten minutes and then let them decide it. And I think it even takes out the whole chat bot, like when can you come in, it sort of piggybacks on that, but sort of gives the job seeker more control, I don't know. Chad: Yeah, I think that they're doing a good job; there's no question. They're kind of tippy-toeing into this, but it's good. They first started with text apply, so they've got like a 15 minute application process now that you can actually text to apply and they saw a 50% increase in candidates looking for jobs because the types of individuals that they're looking for are text driven. Chad: Now we've seen ... Now this is interview scheduling, which is obviously that next step. And we've seen products like GoodTime.io, which is another firing squad that we had. But there are other platforms that are out there that really pull this together in a very nice package that are specifically focused on the Home Depots of the world. So the Talentifys, the Jobaligns ... And then we also talked about Cealo and their high volume program. Chad: So I mean, Home Depot, they're stepping into it slowly ... I appreciate that they're stepping into it at all, but there're platforms that are out there that will do this for them if they just embraced it, but you know, they're slow to embrace it, but they are embracing it. And I've gotta give Home Depot kudos for that. Joel: They're hiring 80,000 spring workers. Chad: Yeah, I know man. Joel: ... for the season. So if you stop to think about the time they're saving by letting the candidate self-schedule, it's gotta be huge. It's gotta be millions of dollars that they're saving. So, if you are a high frequency hiring company for seasonal whatever ... If you're not getting on the automation train, you're way behind. Chad: And it makes no sense, especially for these types of positions ... You can cut out so much administrative work from the apply standpoint, from the interview scheduling standpoint, from the actual interview ... Remember, we were at Canvas just a few weeks ago talking about text interviewing. And then hone it with the one-time voice interviewing. So there are so many awesome technologies that are out there that you can leverage to make this easier on yourself and your hiring managers and so on and so forth. And again, the Jobaligns or the Talentifys ... There are already platforms that are there to be able to help you do high volume stuff. So it's there, man. You just gotta go get it. Joel: Look at you name dropping, like you're a Hollywood agent dropping Hollywood stars' names. Love it. Chad: They gotta know that they're out there. If we don't tell them who to go see, you know what they'll do? Nothing! Joel: You know what? We are the start-ups' best friend because we're letting ... You know, we've got a firing squad. Who else does that? Who else is mentioning these guys in shout outs. Like come on, no one loves the start ups like us. So, there you go. Chad: We love start ups. Joel: So let's talk about a multi-billion dollar company, Unilever, and multi-billion dollar advertising platforms, Google and Facebook, for our next little sidebar in podcast. So you got a story from Unilever that you found really interesting, so what's up? Chad: Okay, so the big byline here is Unilever spends 9 billion dollars, over 9 billion dollars in advertising. They have a shit-ton of products. They own a shit-ton of companies and they're pretty much telling Facebook and Google, blatantly, you can't fuck off because ... Here's the quote from their CMO, "We cannot continue to prop up a digital supply chain, which at times, is little better than a swamp in terms of transparency." Joel: Ouch. Chad: That's from the CMO of Unilever. Yeah, talking to Google, talking to Facebook ... Facebook really had better get their shit together. We see on the job side that it feels really disjointed, but their entire platform, their entire ecosystem right now is just, it's wrought with shit unfortunately. Joel: Ouch. Chad: It is. Joel: So, essentially, Unilever, who makes soaps and a bunch of other consumer products, don't want their products to be beside fake news, videos of ... A lot of stuff has come out recently ... I guess there was this YouTuber who makes a lot of money talking about suicide ... video, and there's this sort of cesspool of all this sort of user-generated crap that is ... Unilever is taking it's ball and going home. Joel: Unilever is not a small advertiser at all. Now, they can't ignore digital advertising. And I think ... One of the things I continue to be interested in is sort of this voice-assistant technology. I kind of poo-pooed it initially, but I find myself using it more and more. You know, Apple's HomePod recently was released to the consumers. We use Google Home at our place. I know you do as well, but you know ... And I tend to look at things as a marketer. And I think, man, I could ... If I had Alexa and, you know, we use Amazon a lot, right? So if I tell Amazon, "Hey Amazon, order detergent, laundry detergent", right? Chad: Yup. Joel: Think about ... If you go to Google today and you search laundry detergent, right, there's like five, seven, eight, ten ads on that keyword. Like how valuable is it to be that laundry detergent that people buy when they say, "Hey Alexa, renew my ... or get me some more laundry detergent", or "I need more dish washing soap", or "I need more whatever". Right? Joel: So to me, maybe Unilever is really ahead of the curve here in saying, look, the digital opportunities are going to expand way beyond keyword search and newsfeed on Facebook. Chad: Yup. Joel: So, that's kind of what I was thinking when I heard the story. They can't ignore digital advertising, but what are they gonna do aside from that? Snapchat is no better in terms of curated ... I mean- Chad: No, no. Joel: And that's curated, I guess they could move more stuff over to Snap. Twitter is kind of the same cesspool, I don't know- Chad: Horrible. Joel: ... how you would get beyond that. But yeah, this is an interesting story and I'll be very interested to see how Unilever moves forward with advertising on digital platforms. Chad: Yeah, no, I will too. And I agree. I've been a huge proponent of voice technology. I mean, most of the texts that I send ... I mean, I voice a lot of that stuff. I don't type it. Why the hell would I wanna sit there and type that shit when I can just voice it? Joel: By the way, this is semi self-serving, but, I mean, podcasts. Chad: Well, you can go anywhere. Joel: You can go anywhere. Chad: And here's a great example. Joel: Go ahead. Chad: Here's a great example. So I was talking to Jay-Z over at SmashFly yesterday and he said he listens to our podcast on Alexa. So, he just tells Alexa to play the new Chad and Cheese podcast. I mean that is cool as shit. Not only your mobile phone, right? But to tell Alexa or to tell Google Home, you know, play the newest Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: So, podcasts as well, I just wanna throw out. Seth Godin. If you're a marketer, you know Seth's name pretty well, but Seth is a big time blogger. He talks a lot about marketing in the new-age of digital ... And he launched a podcast this week, which I listened to, and you should too if you like marketing. But what was interesting about this was that ZipRecruiter, who is obviously in our space, is the only launch advertiser for Seth Godin's podcast. And I listened to it, today actually, and it has Ian, who's the CEO. Joel: So, the ads are actually very different from the CNBC or MSNBC ads that you might see, or the Limbaugh ads on radio. SO they actually had ... it was sort of content marketing driven, so Ian came on the show and said, "Hey, ZipRecruiter, blah, blah, blah", but then he said, "Hey, at the end of the show, we're gonna tell you why eyebrows are so important to business." So at the end of the show, the tip was, if you're telling an idea to someone and their eyebrows go up, that typically means hat they like the idea. If you tell someone the idea and they kind of scrunch their eyebrows, they don't like the idea. And that eyebrows don't lie. Joel: So it as kind of interesting that ZipRecruiter picked this blog, that they picked sort of content marketing to advertise on this podcast, but certainly, podcasts should be part of digital strategy if you're sick of Facebook and the content since that's around YouTube as well. Chad: Yeah. And I think he stole that from Shakira, because the hips don't lie. Joel: And ... for that one. Joel: Alright, well speaking of change and getting rid of the swamp and the cesspool- Chad: That's right! Joel: ... brings us to our next sponsor. Sponsor: The following message was paid for by the campaign to elect the Chad and Cheese as co-presidents of Monster. Chad: "Hi, my name is Chad Sowash. Joel: And I'm Joel Cheesman. You know us as ... Chad: The Chad ... Joel: And Cheese Podcast at chadcheese.com. Chad: We are aware Monster's new owners have lopped of the heads of old Monster leadership and have focused on filling those positions with fresh ideas and new, proven leaders which is why ... Joel: Let 'em eat cake! Get it? Joel: What? Lopped off heads, Marie Antoinette ... Oh, come on, man! Chad: Which is why the Chad and Cheese are officially running for co-president of Monster. Joel: The Chad and Cheese understand the current vulnerability of Indeed and a market that is crying out of anew platform, for and of the people. Chad: Really? The baby sound effect? Again? Joel: You know it's my favorite. Chad: Yeah, you do love that damn thing. Chad: The Chad and Cheese pledge to build and drive cost effective recruitment options through a new Monster vision. Joel: Yes, and the Chad and Cheese also want to answer your long-standing questions like, Whatever happened to Monster Networking? Chief Monster? Jobber? HotJobs? Goziak? Job Pilot? TalentBin? Trovix? Tickle? And that blue-collar thingy. What was that called? I can't remember. Chad: The Chad and Cheese promise to get you, the people, answers. And we also promise not to make bone-headed decisions like buying Tickle instead of LinkedIn. Yeah, that actually happened. Joel: Chad and I are asking for your support in our bid to co-president Monster. Chad: Vote for the Chad and Cheese for co-president of Monster because you deserve a new Monster, and we don't mean that purple, Bugs Bunny cartoon rip-off thing either. Joel: It's a new day. Chad: And you deserve a new Monster. And you'll get one with the Chad ... Joel: And Cheese as co-presidents of Monster. Sponsor: This ad was approved by the Chad and Cheese podcast. Look, there's literally no way in hell that these guys are getting his gig, but they have a pretty amazing podcast. Honestly. So visit chadcheese.com. Paid for by the Campaign for Chad and Cheese for Co-President of Monster. Chad: It's like fine wine, it gets better every time. Joel: I mean, I unmuted you too fast and I got some sniffles there at the end. So yeah, Chad's milking a cold or something so we apologize for the sniff there at the end as you listen. Joel: So I'm reading through news from the Philly Enquirer, which I frequent all the time. Chad: A lot. Joel: And there's a story about Beyond and why they changed their name to Nexxt. And it was fascinating. The summary is basically ... They bought Beyond in like '03 or something. Chad: Right. Joel: He started the company in '97, '98. Rich Milgram, who's the CEO. Anyways, so in '07, they got an investment infusion of about thirteen and a half million dollars from a company called Safeguard ... something. Chad: For a minority. Joel: Yeah, for a minority stake. The world ended in 2008, right? So there was a five year period where, you know, unemployment was huge. Everyone in the employment space sucked. So, Rich raised money at the right time and they were sort of able to weather the storm, which might have been a lot tougher had they not had the money. So the economy improves, things are good. Safeguard, which typically has a five year roadmap for getting their money back, or getting a return on their investment. They're really pushing Rich to sell the company, right? Rich doesn't wanna do it; he doesn't wanna lay off the employees, which by the way, they have some of the most colorful employees in the market who have been around forever. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: So, that would have been a real shame. Joel: So anyway, Bed, Bath, and Beyond, apparently, had been calling, raising the stakes in terms of what they would offer for the domain, beyond.com. Ultimately, they made an offer that Rich couldn't refuse. He said ... Oh, so I will also say, tensions apparently got pretty high with the investor and Rich according to the news story. So anyways, Rich came up with a plan to say, "What if we sold Beyond to Bed, Bath, and Beyond, we took the money from that, paid off the investors ...", as well as, there's also a note there ... I think they owe them ten million over the next three years or by three years from now. Joel: So anyway, you and I both think ... We're probably very skeptical as to why you would change a name from Beyond, which is a common spelling, easy to remember .com to Nexxt, which has two x's. It's a autocorrect nightmare to do that. And now, what they were telling us was, "Well, we're moving beyond job postings, you know, we're moving on to what's next. So that's why we're changing our name". I always thought that was fishy; I think you always thought that was fishy. So we have news now, as to why, they actually went from Beyond to Nexxt. Chad: This makes sense now. This now makes sense. And it makes a hell of a lot of sense from a business standpoint. I mean, yeah, it sucks to go from Beyond to Nexxt with two x's. From the standpoint of really being able to get that monkey off your back and then pivot. I mean, they were going to have to do something to pivot anyway because they were known as just a job board, really, company. A job board distribution company. They wanted to pivot into a data company, so they had to do something. So I think, the stars just aligned and Rich probably woke up in the middle of the night in cold sweat and said, "Eureka! I see exactly what we need to do". And they did it. Chad: So I mean, in the end, I think it was an incredibly smart move and this isn't just because they're one of our sponsors. I thought it was kind of weird before. But now, I think it's smart from the standpoint of, they did need to pivot. Job board and the job board kind of ecosystem itself that they had and they were really promoted and known for, that was, felt like, withering. This data play is strong. And being able to get a new name associated to it, pivoting and getting that monkey off your back is, I believe, genius. Joel: And I also think that the timing was right in terms of, Amazon is eating up everything retail. And every traditional retail store is trying to combat that. So you see Walmart buying Jet.com recently. So Walmart is upping their game with free delivery and you're seeing ads on TV pretty extensively. And so I looked at Bed, Bath, and Beyond because you know, I never go there regularly. Chad: Lies. Joel: So what they're starting at Beyond is this ... it's a $29 per year membership where you get exclusive discounts, et cetera. So I fully expect that you're going to see beyond.com ads on TV and everywhere promoting this sort of membership service at Bed, Bath, and Beyond. And this deal may not have gone through if Amazon had not put so much pressure on retail shops to sort of up their online game. I don't even know what Bed, Bath, and Beyond's URL was before this. Was it bedbathandbyond.com? 'Cause that would be really horrible. Chad: Yeah, I think that the Beyond piece ... the new Beyond, kind of, plus program that they're putting together, which is like you're talking about. More of, kind of, a delivery type of membership service. So, I don't know that they're gonna change URLs to an extent, so I think this is a program ... We'll see as it rolls out, but I think this is a program to ... much like Walmart and some of the other brick and mortar types of organizations, how they're going to combat the Amazons. Joel: Alright, man. That's all we got. Go get some Sudafed, take care of those sniffles- Chad: Chicken soup! Joel: ... and yeah, happy Valentine's Day week. Chad: Happy Valentine's Day. Joel: Yeah, all warm and fuzzy. We out! Chad: We out! Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes or Google so you don't miss a single show! And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make this all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh, and you're welcome.

Heading out of January, the boys are already covering a wide variety of topics, which is nice for what's normally a slow news period. Partnerships are the name of the game in the new recruiting ecosystem, with news from Smashfly and Recruitology hitting the wire this week. What else? Glad you asked. - Strive Talent cleans up in a round of funding, but will sale pros care? - Best diversity employers are announced. Chad may or may not be impressed. - What's old is new again as newspaper catch their second wind. - Infamous dumpster dweller Purple Squirrel has some company. Oy! And much more, as always. Shout-outs are particularly amusing. Enjoy, and visit our sponsor for free demos! Ratedly, America's Job Exchange, Sovren and Catch 22 Consulting rock our world. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the "Chad & Cheese" podcast. Joel: Guess who's back, back again. Welcome to the "Chad & Cheese Show," HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Cheese. Chad: I'm Chad. Joel: On this week's stimulating episode, Purple Squirrel gets some competition. Oh no. Newspapers are hip again. Chad: Yeah. Joel: SmashFly gets in bed with Olivia. We'll try to keep it PG 13, but no promises. Stay tuned. We have free demos and W's all up in your face. Announcer: Google, Lever, Entelo, Monster, Jibe. What do these companies and hundreds of others have in common? They all use Sovren Technology. Some use our software to help people find the perfect job, while others use our technology to help companies find the perfect candidate. Sovren has been the global leader in recruitment intelligent software since 1996, and we can help improve your hiring process too. We'd love to help you make a perfect match. Visit Sovren.com S-O-V-R-E-N.com for a free demo. Joel: Free demo baby. Chad: They run the AI world. They can say "free demo" whenever they want Kelly Robinson. Joel: Oh, now you're getting, oh, hold on. You were all about team Kelly. Chad: I love Kelly. Joel: Now you've turned on him. Nice, okay. Chad: It's been a busy couple of weeks podcasting. Joel: I'm tired. Chad: Last Friday, the Indeed is sneaky as Hell podcast is all over the place, the Honeit "Firing Squad," Nick Livingston, that one we just dropped this last Wednesday. Then we found ourselves in downtown Indy, pre-gaming at Chatham Tap, and for all of our new listeners, pre-gaming means we're drinking beer in preparation for the exclusive pod that's going to drop next week. We were actually on site and interviewed with the CEO of Canvas. Aman Brar. Yeah, I can't get Canvas right because his URL screws me up so much. Joel: Aman Brar yes, oh, he's going to love that. Man, what a great time we have with those guys. You know what I loved about our visit there most, besides they have lovely people working there? Chad: What's that? Joel: Is it looks like a startup. Chad: Oh, it does. Joel: You go in, it's just sweaty, smelly, haven't left the office for who knows how long. They're eating crappy food. I think you even mentioned in the beginning like, "Oh, this feels like Indeed in the early days," and that's kind of what it felt like. To me ... Chad: The lotion and the tissues on the desk. Joel: Yeah, all right. Hey, I didn't bring that up, I didn't bring it up, but yes, yes. There was ... Oh, I'm not even going to go there. Let's just say, yes, it is a gritty feel when you go into the Canvas headquarters here in downtown Indianapolis. Joel: Do we want to give a shout out to Kelly at Flip the Bean or whatever they're called? Chad: Oh yeah, he's already sold that off. He's doing his own thing like playing golf right now, but- Joel: Jeez. Chad: Yeah, we definitely want to give Kelly Robinson a big shout out for his snarky reply to the free demo, right? Joel: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, CareerBuilder gives you a little bit of money and you get all cocky. Is he a New Zealander or an Aussie? Chad: What? Joel: Aussie or a Kiwi? I can't remember. Chad: No. No, no, no, no. He's from the UK, man. Joel: Oh, well no wonder he's got a ... Okay, well, that explains a lot, that explains a lot. All right. Hi Kelly, if you're listening. Free demos for everybody. Chad: Yeah, free demos all around. Ed, our man from Philly, loved the "Firing Squad" and I quote, also in another tweet, "I'm all fired up after the Eagles win," big Eagles fan, go figure. He couldn't get any sleep, so he's cleaning up the kitchen. He was listening to the "Chad & Cheese" podcast and he said, "Chad was on fire like the Eagles' D." Ed is officially I think, a candidate for team Chad. That's right. Joel: That's a nice tease there. I don't know if we're going to get to that on this show or not. Chad: No, not yet, yeah. Joel: Taking us from Philly, let's go to Toronto, LinkedIn headquarters, not headquarters but maybe it's their Canadian headquarters, I don't know. They love the show. I can't believe how much love we get from LinkedIn. Chad: All of the Canadians- Joel: Like it's fantastic. Chad: Especially the Toronto, the Toronto office. Yeah, there's big love coming to the "Chad & Cheese Show." From my understanding, we drop this bad boy today, they will download it, and they'll all be listening to it on their Monday morning meeting. Joel: Good god, this will be the demise of LinkedIn, for sure. Chad: I love it, it's awesome. Joel: Good god, good god. Let's remind people that we'll be in Dublin in two months. Chad: That's right. Joel: A month and a half. Chad: Yeah, March 13th and 14th, the "Chad & Cheese" podcast are flying to Dublin for TA Tech Europe, that's TATechEurope.io. Is everything going io these days? I don't understand it. Joel: "Io, io it's off to work we go." We do have the Canvas CEO of the business on his domain, it's kind of funny there at the beginning, so make sure you do tune into that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Have we gotten anything on the tweeter, tweeter sphere? Chad: Oh yeah. Yeah, we've got Nancy from Philly. Philly loves us. Not happy that the pod usually drops on Saturday or Sunday because she's itching for it and she has to wait until Monday to listen to it. Don't worry Nancy. You have our permission to wait a couple of days to actually listen to the pod on Monday. Joel: You got to blame that on like cabin fever here in the winter. Like no one is waiting for our show to drop minus Kelly or whoever that was, so yeah, that's awesome. Chad: Recruitics is giving us some love after the Indeed pod cast last week, loved that. Thanks to George LaRoque - LA-ROCK. Is it Larock or LaRoque? I'm going to say La-ROCK. Because, I mean, it would be Larock if it was my name, that's it. Pronunciation George Larock, that's what I would do. What? Joel: I think it is Larock but Laroch or something, it's got to be some fancy French spelling or saying. Way beyond my public school intelligence. Chad: No, he gets intel to us all the time and we really appreciate a lot of the research that he does. Joel: He has a great Facebook group. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Or whatever that, if you're not following, you should, it's Talent Tech place, I think. Chad: Yeah. He puts a lot of really good intel out there. I think the last shout out, yeah, I think, so goes to Nexxt. Woo! Joel: Got my schwag finally. Chad: Yeah, got my big box of schwag. Joel: Sounds a little bit like Julie and your dogs, so I don't know what you've been doing with the stuff while it's been at your house. Chad: No comment. They just put out an infographic on "What Will the Job Market Look Like in 2018?" You can find it by looking at, probably at my LinkedIn post, your LinkedIn post, Twitter feeds or you can go to ChadCheese.com homepage for this week and this week only. Click on the banner and some really good intel and a really cool infographic. These guys, I mean, when they do infographics, they don't screw around. They do the shit right. Joel: True that, true that. You ready to get to the show? Chad: Yeah, let's do it. Joel: All right. SmashFly partners with Paradox.ai, I believe, not io. Chad: Slash Olivia. Joel: Yes, which is chatbotting at its best. You actually reached out to SmashFly and had a conversation. How did that go? Chad: It went really well. I mean, the team over at SmashFly, they are awesome. They're always very open to have conversations. Sometimes they reach out and they want to talk, and that's really cool. Especially about what's going on with them, and so I reached out to them to say, "Hey, what's going on with this whole Olivia paradox play?" It actually turned out to be more that than. It turned out to be a HiringSolved, SmashFly, Olivia play. Chad: As we started to have the conversation it really, to me, made a hell of a lot of sense because a lot of these smaller kind of niche players ... I mean, SmashFly to be quite frank, I mean you're taking a look at really having a cosmetic vehicle that's focused on user experience and being able to collect data. Chad: Then you've got Olivia, which is AI versus like just a chatbot that can hep with that experience, so that's something that SmashFly doesn't do, so it made sense that they connect with Olivia and Paradox to be able to do that. Chad: Then on the HiringSolved side of the house, I mean, SmashFly doesn't do that, Paradox doesn't do that. That's more on the sourcing side, so whether you're going, you're dumping into your applicant tracking system and trying to find qualified candidates for current open reqs or going out to the web right now. Chad: I think this is actually a great response. Hopefully, what we'll see from some of these smaller players, to be able to start to arm up and wage war against the Facebooks, the Googles and the Microsofts. Joel: They're talking about this being an integration, like ... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Part of it goes out to find candidates, and then they engage with them through Olivia. Is that what they talked about? Chad: That's all a part of it. Yeah, that's all a part of it. Again, these are fairly early partnerships so the integrations are definitely happening. Obviously, it's going to evolve as the partnership evolves. It seems like, at least from the outside looking in, that this is more than just a paper partnership, that they're looking to do some really amazing integrations. Chad: They're still going to be separate companies, right? They can sell to companies just by themselves their specific product. When you're going in and up against some of these bigger platforms that really have more horsepower than you do, what are you going to do? Are you going to try to build it yourself and really throw a shit ton of resources at it? Or are you going to partner and build integrations so that you can go in and you can really, truly compete? I think that's a great idea. Joel: We saw this too with remember Monster partnering with TextRecruit? Chad: Yep. Joel: Early this year, and thinking in the old days, Monster would just build this or go buy somebody for $50 million to integrate it. It seems like the strategy in '18 is partner. Chad: Partner and acquire Joel: Acquire, yeah. ISIM, TextRecruit, hint, hint. Yeah, buy some people, get your Monster on and buy people. Does it surprise you at all that someone like SmashFly who's gotten a little bit of money, I'm not exactly sure how much, but that they wouldn't attempt to build this themselves? Do you think this partnering is the better strategy? Chad: It's a far better strategy because that money's only going to go so far, and they have core competencies, I mean they all do. Paradox does, SmashFly does and so does HiringSolved. They have core competencies. To be able to dump their cash into those core competencies is where they should stay to be able ensure that they can compete in the long-run with these bigger platforms. Chad: Yeah, I agree. This is one of the ways that the smaller platforms will be able to gain more market share. They'll be more flexible and we'll see how it goes, but I'm pretty excited to see these types of partnerships. Joel: Well, it seems like a trend that's taking off. We will keep our eye on it as always. Recruitology, I think I said it right that time. Chad: Yes. Joel: They're going back in time and making newspapers hip again, which is a weird trend, frankly, from my perspective. I mean, this was like, you and I remember the early "ots" where CareerBuilder, Monster, Hot Jobs, like it was all about the newspaper relationship. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: With the demise of newspapers, that sort of subsided and Monster and CareerBuilder, they're all letting go of their newspaper relationships and people like RealMatch and Recruitology are embracing them, and even have sort of the ZipRecruiter Job Boardio thing, but let's get to the news a little bit. Joel: Recruitology, they partner with McClatchy, which is a popular newspaper in the States. They just partnered with another consortium of media companies, it's like 1,700 digital sites, 14 billion page views, blah, blah, blah. Chad: Yeah, it's crazy. Joel: It's about distribution, but to me, what's interesting is because Google for Jobs is indexing pretty much every job out there, pretty close, and people can search all those jobs but then they can decide which site they want to apply from. That's creating sort of a commodity around the job posting and the eyeballs, so the people who are going to Google continue to go Google. Joel: How do you get people that aren't on Google? I think one way to do that is to partner with newspapers or media sites as well as like a job board platform that is setting up shop on association sites or college sites, et cetera. Chad: Dude, I think you would be all over this because there are three words, content, content, content. That's what this ... I mean, and newspapers put out amazing content and with all the social sharing that's happening these days, I mean, that's where you're seeing a lot of people dump into these newspaper sites. Chad: Now here's the key, and here's where they weren't able to pull it off with CareerBuilder and Monster over the years, is being able to effectively draw that user who's coming to read an article into jobs that are relevant to them, right? That's been the hard part. Chad: If they have that figured out, and I believe they feel like they have that figured out, then that is a key play. Because when somebody's not looking for a job and they're looking for content or they seem some cool byline on Facebook and they click on it, the next thing you know, you have an article in your face and you have jobs that are specifically relevant, not just location-wise, but also skills, maybe title or whatever it might be. Chad: I mean, dude, that brings so much more to the table, and it's really an offshoot of a strategy that is beyond Google, which I think is really cool. Joel: Yeah, definitely true. I think that in the early days, a company would just set up shop on the jobs link on a newspaper site or TV, a local TV station. They would have their search box and a few banner ads and they'd rev share. We're moving into a world now of programmatic ad buying, keyword content, running the ads that people see, they're looking at people coming back to the site. Chad: Retargeting. Joel: For example, if you come once and see a job and you don't act on it, then you leave, you come back the next day, you won't see that ad because you weren't interested in it. The systems are learning more and more about your behavior, so it makes sense. Joel: I think with the newspapers sort of trying to get in with Facebook on a revenue generating sort of trust relationship because of the fake news phenomenon, I think that there's going to be more value put on real news by Facebook and Twitter and others. Maybe they're striking at the right time where traditional media, trusted media's going to make a comeback, and these guys are in the right place at the right time. Chad: Yeah, I agree. I agree 100 percent. Joel: All right, well the next one is right in your lane. Somebody made some sort of list of the best diversity employers. Tell us about that. Chad: Forbes, you might have heard of them before, they're a small organization. Joel: I know, Steve. Chad: They actually released their Best Employers for Diversity's list. Personally, I've never been a fan of these lists, mainly because not all companies provide a great amount of transparency and, or ability to prove they have sustainable programs. It's just a list that, it's like, "Oh yeah, we've hired x amount of, but I'm not going to show you what our actual workforce looks like." Chad: There's a great example that they have in this article that Levy's parent company, Compass Group, and Levy was number two on the list. They released a diversity and inclusion report for 2016 that gave unusual levels of transparency into their workforce demographics, which was incredibly cool. Chad: It showed that 43 percent of management level employees were women, 15 percent were African American, and 10 percent were Hispanic. This is a big lesson for companies to understand that you have to be transparent, you have to look at yourself in the mirror, and you have to know that you cannot do this alone. Levy, I guarantee you, and their parent company Compass, didn't do this alone. Chad: That's why, one of the reasons why we talk about diversity so much around here because, obviously, I'm close to it working with veterans. My wife works with individuals with disabilities, and we've been on the diversity front for many years. That's why we've actually teamed with America's Job Exchange, they're a sponsor of the podcast. Chad: You need professionals on your side, and America's Job Exchange, they do a ton of different things, where it's targeted job distribution, different programmatic types of outreach. They have actual local outreach with partners that are on the ground, who are focused on helping you find diverse candidates and those are the types of individuals that you really need to partner with. Chad: If you're interested in diverse hiring and you looked at yourself in the mirror and said, "Hey look, I don't know how to do this. My team doesn't know how to do this. Well, visit the experts at America's Job Exchange. If you visit AmericasJobExchange.com/Cheese or go to ChadCheese.com and click on the America's Job Exchange logo, it'll take you to the landing page and you can start the conversation. You know you can't do it by yourself. Go out there and find people to help you. America's Job Exchange can help you do that. Joel: Chad, I can't tell you how many times I've looked in the mirror and said, "I can't do this." Chad: You mean, eat the rest of the steak? Or doing what? Joel: The cheesecake was delicious. Chad: The cheesecake was delicious. Julie was glad that I brought it home to her. Joel: All right, let's get medieval on some people. Chad: Oh yeah, please. Joel: Our listeners, our long time listeners will know the name Purple Squirrel pretty well. I think it made my naughty list for the year. I'm pretty sure it's on our hot steaming pile of garbage. Chad: Oh yes it is. Joel: Of sites that we really don't like very much. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joel: To my chagrin, they have a competitor now called The Lobby, which is almost as bad as Purple Squirrel, but it's pretty bad. Chad: It has a dot io at the end. Loddy-dah io, so therefore it's got to be cool as shit, right? Joel: "The Lobby Dot io." All right, what do you want to say about these guys? They got a little bit of money, like 120,000, Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: It's this whole connect with people at other companies. Chad: It's a pay to play. Joel: Money's exchanged for mentorship stuff. Chad: It's a pay to play scenario, man. On the website they pitch it as, "Talk one-on-one with company insiders to help you land your dream job." The actual company vision is a little different from that, because The Lobby is an online marketplace where job candidates buy affordable, one-on-one calls with entry level employees at top companies. What the ... Really? Chad: Entry level employees, that's exactly who I want to connect with. Yeah, and I want to pay to connect with those entry level employees. Why couldn't I just go to LinkedIn, find some entry level per-, hell, middle management. I don't care, and actually reach out to them there? I'm going to pay you to do that? Are you shitting me? Joel: I have such disdain for these companies that like, I don't want to say prey- Chad: They do. Joel: ... on the unemployed and ... Okay, I'll say it. They prey on the unemployed and the new grad that isn't an engineer from Purdue or whatever to get their money. Chad: Yes, yes. Joel: I don't even want to spend anymore time on these idiots. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The fact that they're a Y-Combinator company- Chad: Yeah, no shit, right? Joel: Pisses me off even more that there's some credibility in this stuff and somebody like Y-Combinator would give these idiots the time of day, so ... Chad: Go after the companies who have the cash, not the job seekers who don't, so yeah, definitely add this to the pile of steaming garbage with Recruitsy, who I think we had on a couple weeks ago. Joel: Oh. They're getting all the sound effects. Chad: Woo! All right. Joel: I need to sit down after that. Chad: Yes. Joel: All right. Strive Talent startup. Got some money, got some real money, I think in a seed round actually. $3.8 million. Tell us about them. Chad: Yeah, so I like this, I really do. I don't know if it's going to work. It really depends on the execution but Strive Talent is the ... This is on their website, is the fastest and fairest, I don't know what the hell that means, way to get the sales jobs that applicants desire and deserve. You take an assessment, which is a cognitive personal skills assessment. You meet with companies, I would assume an interview, and then you quote, unquote, get the job, right? Chad: As we know, sales jobs in the United States and across the globe, but mainly in the United States, so this is an area that really needs help, to be able to find competent salespeople, right? Thing is, they're just currently limited to like six markets right now so it's very, very small at this point. Chad: If this works, if this specific model works for sales, this could easily pivot into customer service as well. This model, I believe easily ... Customer service is also another one of those booming areas of the economy. You've got two perspective booming areas of the economy who need competent individuals. If they could pull this off right, they could perspectively make some cash, which is probably why they had $3.8 million in seed funding. Joel: All right, I'm going to throw a little- Chad: Go ahead. Joel: A little cold water on this just a little bit, okay. I think what's interesting is they've sort of taken the idea of how developers love to sort of be on a computer and take tests against other developers, and take little brain teasers about code and leverage that instinct into companies that work, right? Like we know the ones that are out there, but the best salespeople, I mean, are they going to take a quiz? Joel: Like your history is in sales. You've managed salespeople. To me, the best salespeople are like, "I don't need to take a test. Let me show you how much I made last year, or let me show you how much I made the company last year." Like do you really think salespeople are going to take quizzes? Chad: Hey, this isn't really about those types of salespeople. They're about the individuals who are coming in ... See, the hardest part about finding new salespeople, let's say for instance, like entry level salespeople is the Chad: characteristics that make a great salesperson, right? It's not a college degree, yes, you have to be well-spoken. It's not a college degree. It has to do with being respectful, tenacious, and being able to really focus on what the mission and the objective is, right? Really hone in on that, focus and understand that you have goals to hit. Joel: It feels a little bit like an agency, doesn't it? Like a staffing firm, basically. Chad: Yeah, yeah. It kind of does, but I mean this, I think from an entry level standpoint, will be the best. I agree 100 percent, if somebody's been in the business for a few years, they will have history to be able to demonstrate that they know how to do their shit, right? From an entry level standpoint, that's generally where you need most of your people, especially in this growth sector. Joel: All right. All right, I'm open to it, I'm open to it. Let's get some salespeople hired. Chad, you know SmartRecruiters. Chad: I've heard of those guys, yeah. Joel: One word, SmartRecruiters. Not Smart, space, Recruiters. Chad: Yes. Joel: Like this is the ATS the company you know that's been around for a while. Anyway, they are launching a competition for Startup of the Year. Chad: Oh. Joel: Guess who's on the list? Chad: Who? Joel: Ratedly. Shockingly. Chad: No, it's not. Stop it. Joel: Ratedly. Yes, we've been nominated, I just want to put it out there as our ad. I won't talk about free demos or send people to www.Ratedly.com. Chad: Yeah, don't do that. Joel: There are some cool companies, if you go to Hire18, so it's H-I-R-E, the number 18.com, and you'll see a wide variety of startups that are there, you can nominate them, you can vote for them. I believe the voting will be closed sometime in mid-February. Then I think the winners will be announced at the annual show or whatever. Joel: Anyway, it's an honor to be nominated. Obviously, that means nothing if you don't win but it's still nice to be out there. I'll also mention in my little Ratedly ad here for my company, we are going to be raising prices this weekend, so if you have been thinking about Ratedly and using it, we'll be increasing prices over the weekend and next week we'll also be launching analytics ... Chad: There it is. Joel: ... around our reviews, which we think are very cool as well as some cool little updates to our platform that we're excited about. Chad: Yes. Joel: If you're interested, Ratedly.com, and let's talk about football. Chad: Next time, lead with the, "We're adding analytics" piece, lead with that. Everybody's like, "Oh yeah, analytics," which is the reason why we're raising our pries. Lead them into that. That's just a little sales tip for next time. Joel: I need to go to Strive Talent and take their quizzes to become a better salesperson, obviously. Chad: Yeah. Where do you want to start on this football thing? There's so much to talk about. Joel: Well, you want to torch Tom Brady. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: I want to make a Johnny Manziel joke, so I guess Tommy or Johnny, I guess. Chad: Let's start ... Joel: The goat or the goat? Chad: We'll give Tom Brady his number one spot but I hate Tom Brady, always will. He is a product of Michigan, that team up north. Yeah, there's no way, I don't care how many Super Bowl rings he wins, never be the greatest in my book, but there's this great meme that's out from NFL Memes who's been putting them out. They're comparing Nick Foles to Tom Brady. Here's just a few of them, which are frickin' hilarious. Chad: First off, "Nick Foles has only one career playoff loss. Tom Brady has nine." That's why Nick Foles is better. "Nick Foles starred in 'Napoleon Dynamite,' Tom Brady never in a movie." That's why Nick Foles is better. Joel: If you're not a sports fan, you may tune off the show at this point. Chad: "Nick Foles kills it on the field. He threw seven TD passes in one game, and Tom Brady only threw six." That's why Nick Foles is better. Joel: I guess you're picking the Eagles next week. Chad: Oh yeah. I got to stick with the Philly crew. Not to mention, I don't like Tom Brady so how in the hell can I vote for the Patriots? Joel: We have fans in Bean Town too. Chad: No, we do, we have a lot. Joel: We have fans in Bean Town. Chad: I love- Joel: Which you just insulted. That's all right. Chad: I love Boston. I said I hated Tom Brady. I didn't say I hated Boston, I love Boston. Got great beer, got stuff to do. Joel: It's like telling Cleveland you hate LeBron. Chad: Yeah, you can't do that. Anyway ... Joel: Actually, quite a few of them hate LeBron. Remember, like Bernie Kosar or something. Yeah, I have nothing on the Tom Brady thing. We'll make predictions I'm sure next week, but I do ... I do have to say that I feel bad for the Minnesotans, the Vikings fans, that you would have had a home game in the Super Bowl, and you totally just whiffed, you totally air balled that game- Chad: Dude. Joel: That sucks. Anyway, XFL, here's one for the old people- Chad: It's back. Joel: ... who remember XFL for the like three weeks it was on. God, tell people what that was if they don't remember. Chad: The XFL is actually a football league that is funded, and I guess the presidency, oh president, is Vince McMahon from the WWE, WWF, whatever the hell, World Wrestling fake entertainment kind of organization that's out there. Joel: Yeah. Chad: He wanted to do football and he tried a season to do football, but there were just so many gimmicks. It was corny as hell. One thing I did like was, He Hate Me, because he was a hell of a runner. Joel: Didn't He Hate Me get into the NFL for a while actually? Chad: Yeah, he did, he did. Like for a season I think, maybe two, maybe two seasons. Joel: Here's the one thing I liked about the XFL. If you remember this, to start the game, they didn't kick it off. They put the ball in the center of the field and they had two guys at the end zone. They started at the same time, and the one who got the ball was the team that got the ball first. You remember that? Chad: Yeah. Joel: That was actually pretty entertaining. It's way more entertaining than the NFL today, which basically every kickoff is at the 20, whatever it is. Like that's boring as ... I understand it's safety but like the XFL had something right with the way they started games. Joel: I will also say that for Johnny Manziel fans, I'm not one of them, XFL may just be his reentry into the American zeitgeist, which is slightly just scary but also a little bit interesting at least. They need to take all the has-beens, which would be like half the ex-Browns quarterbacks from the last 10 years, put them on a field and see what happens. XFL, I'm going to ... If this were "Firing Squad," I would shoot it down because it has no chance. Chad: It's football, man. If I get more football in my year, I am happy. Hell, I'll even watch Canadian football. Joel: You and I are old enough to remember the USFL. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Which didn't work out either. Chad: No, it didn't, it didn't. I mean the NFL crushed them, but anyway ... Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Speaker 1: This has been the "Chad & Cheese" podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes or Google so you don't miss a single show, and be sure to check out our sponsors because they make this all possible. For more, visit ChadCheese.com. Oh, and you're welcome. #TheLobbyio #Smashfly #Olivia #HiringSolved #StriveTalent #XFL #SuperBowl

It's December, Santa's Little Helpers, and the boys from HR's most dangerous podcast are taking on a wide range of topics this week, including: Twitter is sick of your job posting bots and finally doing something about it. Meetup gets acquired by WeWork, which could revive this old school recruiting fav from 10 years ago. All-things-automation continues with janitorial bots at this major retailer, driverless busses (oh, how we would've loved a driverless bus at 15-years-old), and a real AI expert tells us what's really AI and what isn't AI. The ice under Indeed's feet is starting to crack ... the boys go into what they're hearing from trusted contacts.... and more, baby! It's 40 minutes you won't want back. Throw in a fat man and some reindeer, and you've got Christmas early this year. Speaking of Christmas, don't forget to show our sponsors some love: Sovren, America's Job Exchange, Ratedly and Nexxt. are just what your stocking wants this year. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brush opinions, and lots of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel : Welcome to December my little Santa's helpers. This is Chad and Cheese, the dudes behind HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman Chad : I'm Chad Sowash and I'm totally creeped out about how you just said little Santa's helpers. Joel : And F you. On this week's show twitter is telling bots to get off their lawn, Walmart is being overrun with janitorial robots, and the seeds of Indeed's demise are starting to sprout. It's not really AI unless it knows your favorite tune. We'll be right's back. Advert: America's job exchange is celebrating our tenth year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our 1000 plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women and minorities, and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community based organizations. Want to learn more, call 866-926-6284, or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com. Joel : Word up. Chad : Word. Joel : How was Thanksgiving? Chad : It was amazing. It was a good time. Joel : Yeah? Chad : How about ... Well, I mean we did a Thanksgiving and after-Thanksgiving show if you didn't listen to it.... Joel : Well, I was high on tryptophan ... you know that ... during the show. Chad : Yeah. Joel : Yeah, and I've been out of town for a while. Let's get to the shout out shall we? Chad : Yeah. Joel : I know we're kind of stressed for time, so let's get on with the show. Joel : Shout out to Caleb Pask. A loyal listener down in Dallas at AT&T. Chad : AT&T crew. Joel : Caleb, thanks for listening. Chad : We did a show yesterday ... actually, a couple of days ago. We just dropped it yesterday ... with HiQ, so if anybody hasn't listened to that one, I want to give a shout out to Mark Weidick. Chad : We talked about updates of their David and Goliath court battle, negative industry impact, possibly, not just with us, but just global innovation. And then scraping bots and how to identify good actors from bad actors. It's a really pod. You should check it out. Joel : Did you say a shart out? Chad : Shart out. Joel : Or shout out? Chad : Well, it depends. It depends on your diet, so if it was... Joel : It's not that kind of show. It's not that kind of show. I got to shout out to ZWD on Twitter, they dig us there. They want more turkeys in our show. They want more snark and embarrassing their companies and less Indeed, Google, Facebook, and Linkedin. Chad : Yeah. Brent Healy gave us a little love on the hashtag Chad Cheese, thanking us for the monster history lesson and reminding us all that earning are historical not predictive. It's pretty simple, you have to know history or you're going to be doomed to repeat it. Good stuff Brent, thanks. Joel : Brent is a loyal listener, we appreciate it Brent. And you like Jon Zila at Recruitics, you got a shout out for him? Chad : Yeah. John and I this week had pretty much a snark/gif battle via email and I think he got the best of me. But there was the battle, the war rages on John, keep listening and look for more gifs coming in your email. Joel : Little insider note, Chad and I typically have conversations that are just gifs. Chad : Full conversations. Joel : Yeah, we consider ourselves masters in the art of gifs. Shout out for me to Recruitcon, conference out in San Francisco that I spoke at on Wednesday, met some great people, some people from Wholefoods, groupon, our friends at Ellena from ... It will come back to me, I'll bring it back. Chad : The tryptophan is killing you. Joel : Well, I'm nervous, it's our first show. Chad : And a shout out to Jacob Sten Madsen for giving the Chad and Cheese podcast love in the recruiting evolution Facebook group, really appreciate it, thanks for all the love guys. Joel : You bet. And he's European, so it could be Yacob Steinmatsen or something, so yeah, love him, he loves the show. Chad : You're so horrible. Joel : Well, let's get into it. News out of Twitter this week from yours truly on ere.net, you can read about all my stuff there. Twitter is sick of the bots that are automatically Tweeting stuff, following people, DMing people ... You know what I'm talking about, like you follow someone and gets nuts, and so they're sick of it and they're slowly killing it, so that affects jobs. Chad : There are like 48 million accounts that are bot created accounts on Twitter, that's ridiculous. Not to mention- Joel : 15% of Twitter is bots. Chad : I mean, you think of ... Obviously we've got all this controversy with the election and what not, but still on a day to day basis, the trolling, all the shit that happens on Twitter right now is just is totally bogus and they've got to do something about it. And it looks like they are. Joel : They are. I mean, they've been getting their ass kicked by Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat ... God, I'm really struggling today. Snapchat, yeah. And the political landscape of the world of fake news and people affecting elections, Twitter is doing something about it. And this impacts companies, CareerArc comes to mind, but there are a ton. Go do a search on Twitter for #jobs, and see the number of sites that are just blasting jobs, sometimes jobs five to ten times a day. The same job or the same tweet. Those services are going away, so if you as an employer rely on Twitter to sort of blast your jobs and your getting results from that, it's going to be limited because Twitter is shutting it down. Chad : I think they're going to shut down RSS feeds. I mean, it's pretty simple to hook an RSS feed into Hootsuite or something like that and let that run its course. Are they're looking to shut down like the Hootsuite's of the world and RSS feeds? Joel : We're not quite sure or at least I'm not quite sure. I think that the sort of examples where you post a job and you click a little button that says, hey, I want to tweet this job out on my account, it doesn't look like they're going to crack down on that. What they're cracking down on is sort of the mass automation, the mass auto following, mass auto DMing, the things that are going on that we all know what it is and Twitter knows what it is, it's just time to cut it out. Joel : I think certainly retweeting the same thing multiple times is going to get squashed by them, but if you just post a job and you tweet it once, I don't think you have anything to worry about even if it's automated through Hootsuite or your ATS or whatever. And even on Linkedin, if you post something ... A post on Linkedin you can push a post to Twitter, I don't think that would be affected at all. It's sort of that mass easily decipherable automation is going on that they're going to start shutting down. Chad : Yeah, I think we'll probably reach out to our friend at CareerArc and find out, they're probably pretty neck deep in this right now, so they might be able to give us some good intel on it. Joel : Yeah, I'm sure that they're very aware. I received an email because I'm a marketing person, and I get a lot of people that are doing this for marketing purposes and companies that do this. And got a notice that basically they were trying to do all they can or all they could to sort of continually black hat Twitter, and Twitter was getting really good at shutting them down and not letting them do stuff. If this is happening to the best of the best, the black hats if you will, the CareerArcs are going to have a lot of trouble sort of getting by with what they've being down in the past I would imagine. Chad : Ouch, ouch. Joel : New acquisition. WeWork acquired Meetup, which sounds like a weird sort of We work meet up. Chad : $30 million, man. Joel : 30 million, that's kind of loose change for Meetup, a company that's being around for a long time. That's kind of surprising. I mean, granted 30 million is a lot of money but WeWork has been around since like '03 '04. They were a huge impact on election in '04, if you remember correctly. Chad : Right, talking about MeetuP, right? Meetup has ... It being like the different indivisible groups, and those types of groups use Meetup to be able to coordinate. You're right, the platform I would have though would have gone more than $30 million especially from a company like WeWork, who is worth like over 10 billion. Joel : Yeah. They must have a ton of records, data contacts, but I probably did use Meetup at some point 10 plus years ago for marketing groups, SEO groups, things like that. But I haven't checked it forever. So, either Facebook killed it or social media killed it, but it has lost a lot of its luster. Hopefully, WeWork can bring it back because I think Meetup, at for a long time was an underrated recruiting tool and I knew a lot of recruiters who would go to groups and meetups where people they wanted to recruit were going and actually have a lot of success with that. Hopefully, WeWork can revive Meetup and become a real recruiting strategy again. Chad : Yeah. For our listeners, Meetup, and let's separate this two real quick. Meetup is a social networking platform or service that allowed organizations to really pull together this online meetings offline. So, you could meet up somewhere and this groups could meetup and obviously do whatever they do, whether they're talking about an innovation, whatever it is, and it was good as Joel said for recruiters to be able to really target those types of groups and go after IT professionals or something of that nature. So that's really cool, and that was Meetup. Chad : WeWork is entirely different. Really cool from the standpoint of redefining work pace where you use this platform to find workspace in an area. So if I'm in Austin this week or this month let's say, I go to Austin WeWork and I could find an office there that was more of like a collaborative type of office, and it's really cool. Obviously you have to pay for it. But it really is redefining virtual versus semi-virtual, and now it's kind of rework or WeWork [crosstalk 00:11:52] scenario. Rework WeWork. Joel : Meetup is getting reworked by WeWork, how about that for a headline. I like it. Chad : Jesus! That's a good line. Joel : All right, man. Let's take a quick break and hear from a sponsor and talk a little bit about automation because we never talk about that. Advert: Google, Lever, ENTELLO, Monster, Jibe, what does this companies and hundreds of others have in common? They all use Sovren technology. Some use our software to help people find the perfect job, while others use our technology to help companies find the perfect candidate. Sovren has been the global leader in recruitment intelligent software since 1996, and we can help improve your hiring process too. We'd love to help you make a perfect match, visit Sovren.com S-O-V-R-E-N dot com, for a free demo. Joel : Chad is gotten a 15 minute more reprieve on his time, so we can slow down a little bit on the topics if we want to. I need some mood music or something to set the mood. Some automation news this week, what do you want to start with? Chad : I'd like to start off with Walmart cleaning because it just sounds like the most fun, and shit that people really don't want to do in the first place. And we talk about automation, we talk about how it's stealing jobs and all the fun stuff, but in most cases it's just shit that people don't want to do. And this is a perfect example of that. I think the robot is called Emma, and it goes around and it scrubs the floors in Walmart. That's really what it does. Joel : Finish this sentence for me, if you got time to lean? Chad : You've got time to clean. Joel : There you go. All right, so the old work adage that I had, I'm sure you had in your early jobs and like just don't just sit there. Well, now people can just stand there because the robots are going to clean while you get to lean I guess. But it takes out that minuscule task, the little piddly stuff that workers have to do. Now, I assume Walmart has actual people dedicate to cleaning the store, cleaning the floors. I assume these people are in jeopardy of losing their jobs. Chad : Yeah, in some cases I've seen just services or companies that they obviously they contract to do those types of things, so maybe Emma is not a Walmart thing anyway, maybe they're just using another contractor that uses robots instead of human beings. But yeah, I see where you're coming from here. Joel : Now, apparently a lot of Walmart employees this is sort like the gateway that they're looking at this thing and saying, is my job really free, or I'm going to be automated in the future? I got to think they should be worried. We've talked about self-serve cashiers, obviously Amazon is setting the standard for just walking into a store, getting what you need and you leave. I am personally a Sam's club person, I have their app, I scan a code, I pay through my phone and I walk out. I don't have to stand behind are people with tons and tons of items and checking them out. It's really, really convenient. Joel : As a retail worker at Walmart, I would be a little bit scared about what this means in terms of automation of the store because I think that's coming. Chad : Yeah, and even stocking. There are so many different things that we've seen in some of the warehouses that are out there today that are using robots to move pallets, and stoking, and those types of things. Yeah, this are all areas that are going to change, which means again, you need to be in that mindset of what I'm I going to do, where I'm I going to go with my career. Not everybody has that luxury, that's the problem. And that's going to be the unfortunate piece for us as a society. Joel : Which leads us to the next news item, driverless school buses. Chad : Yeah, bus drivers. Joel : I have a question as a parent, and you as a parent as well. Would you put your child, any age on a driverless school bus? Chad : Yeah, not as a prototype or a pilot. This would have to be something that would have to have been run for many years before I would trust something like that. But yeah, I guarantee there are parents that are out there that are like, oh yeah, it's all well and good, let's start our kids in this autonomous Uber and have them go to school. Joel : So, assume you have to pilot for a decade with someone behind the wheel to prove that it's safe, or that it's going to be okay. And I would assume that there is got to be some sort of a central intelligence hub for these buses, similar to like an airline ... What are they called? Airline traffic controller, right? Chad : Yeah. Joel : So, someone can actually see in the bus our kids horsing around, are they beating up other kids, there is got to be some sort of a monitoring system for these buses. Chad : Right. And they're going to walk into this, there are not going to run into it to go straight to level five. There are autonomous driving levels and they'll start with level three or four like you were talking about when somebody is actually sitting there reading a newspaper on their phone, or on Facebook or something like that and then they're going to slowly push them out. But you're 100% correct, who's going to monitor the actual kids on the bus? Is it going to be somebody in a central hub who is watching them on monitors and can actually through facial recognition say, "Hey little Johnny, quite messing with Suzy." You know what I mean? I mean this is all shit that we're talking about, right? Joel : I can tell you as a 14 year old, I would have loved to have been on an autonomous bus because I could have gotten away with a lot of shit at 14- Chad : You think you could? Joel : With no driver on the bus. Chad : Dude, this is enemy of the state shit dude. They're going to know exactly what you did, so old Joe or Josephine who was driving the bus before who kept looking up at that mirror every now and again to try to check out, you got with away with a whole lot of shit on that bus that you won't be able to do with this Will Smith Enemy of the State shit that's coming up. Joel : Cameras in every seats, cameras on the floor, heat sensors, who knows what the hell is going to amount to this thing. A real life example, to bring it down a little bit, in our community a principal was actually killed because of a bus driver that my kids were actually on ... Not that it has any relevance to the story, but that probably could have been averted had it being an autonomous vehicle, not some idiot high on whatever behind the wheel whatever. I do think there are arguments that would be made that it's actually safer to have an autonomous vehicle or bus than it is to have an actual driver. Chad : There will be, but it would have to be ... It would have to be tested and there would have to walk into this with somebody actually on the bus, there are going to start with level three then level four and then they'll go full blown level five Enemy of the state. You're going to walk on the bus, kids are going to walk on the bus and they're going to be able to tell your temperature, and they're going to say, yeah you have 101 degree temperature, get your ass off the bus, go home and have some chicken soup. Joel : Or it'll do that like Star Trek, it'll wave a wand over you and heal before you come on the bus to get you okay. Chad : That would be legit. Joel : Let's be honest dude, the people who drive buses are not like road scholars, right? Chad : No, they're generally part timers in most cases. I know individuals in the past who drive bus and they have other jobs as well. I mean, you take a look at our economy and there are so many people who hold more than one job, part-time jobs, full-time jobs, or what have you. This is the fabric of our economy. Joel : Are you saying bus drivers are the fabric of our economy? Chad : I'm saying those types of jobs. Joel : Because if the kids came to the school, who's going to teach the kids and as Whitney Houston taught us, I believe the future are our children. Chad : Oh, good God. Joel : Teach them well, and let them lead the way. All right, enough about driverless school buses because I'm trending off into Whitney Houston land. Chad : That's horrible. Joel : Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm sorry America. All right [crosstalk 00:21:12] go ahead, say it, what? Chad : I said, and Europe, and Asia, and Anybody who's listening, we apologize. Joel : I don't count down Europe, right? All right, what's really AI Chad? There was an article in Fast Company, which I guess you didn't read, so maybe I should talk about the real AI story. Fast Company interviewed the guy behind Uber, Amazon, a bunch of real AI solutions, and he sort of did an interview about what AI really is. And I think for our audience because if you're a consumer, you're hearing about all these AI quote products, what does that actually mean? Are these things really AI? And we've talked about it in the past, most of them are decision trees, they get a response and they have an answer, they get another response and they have an answer. Joel : I thought it was important to read this story, share with the audience. This guy broke AI down in two components, one was sort of the front of the house and that was users need to believe that what they're talking to or what they're doing really know them. That they're not talking to a machine- Chad : It's UX. Joel : And the example that they had which I thought was great was, if you have a Google home device, which I do, I'm sure Chad does too, it knows your voice. So, if you say, "Hey Google, play my favorite song." Or, "Hey Google, turn on my favorite channel." It knows it because it knows my voice, it knows my behavior, it knows my history, that's real AI from a consumer facing standpoint. Joel : From a back of the house standpoint, and I think this is probably more challenging in terms off development or real AI's when you can permanently separate a human from the programming or the learning component. The example the guy gave was, if someone gets an MRI at a hospital, and it can automatically without a doctor telling it what to do or programming it, cross-reference your MRI with thousands of others and determine what you have, the severity ... I'm not a doctor, so whatever that language is, that's real AI. If a doctor doesn't have to get involved to give you a diagnosis or get your diagnosis for you, that's real AI because a human is totally devoid of participation. Chad : Right. Let's think about this in the hiring world because we talk about AI machine learning, all that shit all the time. It has to be predictive, and it has to understand context. If you take a look at all the AI that's out there today, it has to, if it is AI really, it has to understand years of hiring decisions, why did you make these hiring decisions, and also retention. So that it can help all the way through in being able to choose the right types of individuals who will obviously come in and work well within the organization because they stay retained. Not to mention also all the employee summary information and so on and do forth. Chad : It's got to take all these data and then be more of a contextual and predictive measure providing you with the right candidates. That's what it has to be able to do. So, if it doesn't do all of that, and it doesn't learn from history and what's happening day to day, then it's really not to the point of AI where it's helping, really making decisions but helping you make better decisions. Joel : Yeah. And I think the historical context is really important. If you look at what companies are in a position to know where did you graduate from school, what degree did you have, what was your first job, what was your second job, what did you do, what was the title, what were your endorsements or information or contacts, what were your projects from that job. To me it's like ding, ding, ding, Linkedin. Linkedin in association with their sugar daddy Microsoft, is in a really good position to understand a job seeker from the moment they go to college to that first, second job to understand, hey, you've done this, based on that, we think this is a great opportunity. And hey employer, this is a great candidate for you because of their sort of historical journey. Joel : To me, that's where AI really comes in and we really get into something that's matching what we've being talking about, matching for a long time. To me, if the employer doesn't have to get involved and the candidate doesn't have to really even look for a job, that to me is like when we get to a nirvana for employment. And maybe I would say Linkedin and Microsoft are poised to do that, I think Facebook could do it, and I think Google could do it as well. All the other players, I don't see it. Chad : Yeah. I think simply we go back to the Walmart piece, you've got a piece of machinery that can do this little tasks that are kind of getting you to that point, that's where we are at right now, being able to understand more and [inaudible 00:26:41] context. That's where we're going. But to be able to classify as AI today, I think it's definitely over classifying it because it's not, not yet. Joel : Overselling. Chad : That's it. Joel : They're overselling AI. Yeah, because I tell a bot my name and then they ask me can I drive a car or do I have a license and then they say, "Oh, here are some driving jobs." That's just decision trees stuff, that's not AI. And we'll we get there? Probably. It will take, but don't get hornswoggled into believing that is what it isn't. And yes, I said hornswoggle because we're in the mid-west and hornswoggle is in our lexicon. Joel : Okay. To me, we're getting to the mid of the show, if you've stuck around this long, you'll be rewarded by this next segment, which is laying the groundwork for a lot of stuff that we're going to be discovering in terms of Indeed and the struggles they're having, will have, the struggles that companies are having with Google for jobs and what's going on there. I'll let you sort of frame it first Chad, you were on a webinar with KRT, which is an agency. And they talked about Google for jobs and some of the data, what was some of the highlights for you from that experience? Chad : I had two major take aways, number one, only 37% of fortune 500 companies are being indexed into Google for jobs. And this is research that KRT is doing. The bulk of companies are not actually getting their jobs into Google for jobs, the actual THE search engine, that everybody uses every single day. So, that was number one. Chad : Number two, AdWords pricing around jobs or job terms, go figure, this is not going to surprise you at all, has increased dramatically. This is going to affect obviously this entire market, which I think that was Googles plan in the first place, to be able to start win back that search traffic that they really weren't getting before, at least staying with them and then also being able to monetize it where it was going to the Google for jobs at the time, which Indeed called themselves, and now it's going to the actual Google for jobs. Joel : I think your term for that was, boot in the ass, I'm I right on that one? Chad : Gave them a boot in the ass, that's for sure. Joel : KRT, apparently those were, was it 37%? Chad : Yeah, 37%. Joel : 37% are in Google for jobs. Now, my guess is fortune 500, a lot of them are posting on Linkedin, Career Builder, Monster etc cetera. But they're probably getting their jobs on Google for jobs through those job boards. But I think we both agree it's just a matter of time before they go directly to Google for jobs as opposed to going through a job board. And I fully expect that 37% number to go up significantly year over year, getting to at least 80% I would say in the next five years. Chad : Yeah. And I would assume that that would happen fairly quick because we're also hearing rumblings that Indeed traffic, or the quality of Indeed traffic is going down dramatically as well. Their number of candidates, the amount of candidates- Joel : That's Indeed's marketing department or sales department. Chad : So, the quality of the traffic is actually going down dramatically. I mean, what do you do as a company? And Indeed is looking to raise their prices. And in some cases, it looks like they're looking to triple their prices. Some companies are ... At least to us, behind closed doors, are talking about 35% more and more. So, 30% increases, which is pretty incredible. Joel : These are people that Chad and I know that we trust, that won't go on the record, but we have no reason to believe that they would lie to us because no reward for them. It seems to be Indeed is definitely increasing prices, 30% to 40% in some cases that we're hearing. These price increases are stretching budgets quite a bit from people that we're talking to. One of my contacts told me that they posted the exact same job at the exact same time on ZipRecruiter, which by the way ZipRecruiter is really in bed big time with Google for jobs. So, the ZipRecruiter job was definitely on Google for jobs. But this person received in 24 hours, I want to say 49 candidates from ZipRecruiter at a cost of two cents a resume or apply. And on Indeed that had 10 applicants as opposed to 49 or 50. And the cost was about six times more from Indeed. Joel : This is one example of someone that's going to say, we'll going to shift more money to ZipRecruiter and less money to Indeed, and I have to think that's going to be a trend that can [crosstalk 00:32:03] Chad : Oh yeah. And also we're also seeing Indeed start to mess with their organic listings. And I don't know if this is just a negotiation tactic to say, hey, either pay us or we're going to rip you out of, we're going to unplug you from the organic, or really diminish your returns from the organic. But again, I don't think that this is working out in their favor. They feel like this is a big hammer for them, but we just saw yesterday, which I thought was amazing, a case study of a client who was unplugged entirely from Indeed's organic listings, and their traffic just dropped off, just boomed into the basement. But it was picked up by Google for jobs and pretty much that traffic was replaced almost overnight by Google for jobs without spending any money, ridiculous. Joel : Which is money that probably would have gone to Indeed because historically that person would have been, Oh hell, all my traffic is gone, I need to pay Indeed to get back on their index, get back in terms of advertising on Indeed. Now, that person says, F Indeed, Google for jobs is replacing all the traffic that I used to get from you for free. Chad : This is so reminiscent of Monster in it's heyday. To be quite frank, they had to do stupid shit and they were ass holes in some cases where the negotiation practice was, well, screw you. You're not going to pay us, then guess what? You're not going to get X. And I hope this is not what we're going to see from Indeed. I hope that's not the case, I'm not saying that that's what's happening, but when you're talking about messing with all these different moving parts and clients ... I mean, I had more than one client actually reach out to me and say, I'm confused about the pricing because every time a rep comes to me, it's a different price and they've changed things. And then they've also started to take away our unlimited messaging abilities, and they're making us pay differently for that. Chad : I mean, there are just all these different things that are happening at this point, it almost feels like indeed is in panic mode. Joel : Yeah, which I think they have been since Google for Jobs launched. And I think the mass advertising, offline advertising that they've being doing is a sign of sort of saying like, oh shit, let's get the traffic back up because I'm sure internally they're seeing traffic down, people going directly through Google for jobs directly to job boards. They're trying to supplement that traffic through traditional advertising and trying to figure it out on the way as to what they do, raising prices is certainly a way to help fund those TV ads to get that traffic in. But we don't know internally what traffic is and if the TV commercials are supplementing what they were getting from Google. If they are, they're going to have to raise prices because commercials on CNN and what not are a lot more expensive than getting that Google organic ranking for Houston jobs that they used to enjoy. Chad : It's not sustainable. We talked about this months and months ago when they made the decision, they being Indeed made the decision not to play with Google for jobs. To be able to regain the lost traffic that I guarantee they're seeing, they're going to have to spend more money on AdWords. We just found out that AdWords is actually costing more than it used to for AdWords especially when it comes to jobs. That has actually gone up more, it's going to cost them more today just than what they were doing before and they have to up the ante on what they were doing before because of lost traffic. Chad : Second, you can't continue ... I know from my Monster days, you cannot continue to spend the type of dollars on traditional advertising like TV advertising and create half a million dollar Ads, it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable unless you raise prices dramatically. Joel : Yeah. And as long as people can go to ZipRecruiter or whoever else and get a lot bigger bang for a lot less buck, that's what they're going to do. And consumers are much more savvy now than they were 10 years ago. Would you agree with that? Chad : Oh yeah. Joel : It's going to be much harder for Indeed to just charge something and people sign it and be done with their rubber stamping. People are actually looking at how much resumes cost, and how many candidates are getting from certain sources, and the scrutiny on where they want to put their dollars and post their jobs is getting tougher and tougher. I think like we said, we knew when Google for jobs came on the scene, we knew it was going to challenging for Indeed. We've continually talked about and we're sort of starting to see the sprouts of what is happening with Indeed, what people are saying, what Indeed's reaction is to what's going on and I think we both agree non of it points at anything good for Indeed in the future. Chad : No. And I've heard only good things about ZipRecruiter. In this conversation ZipRecruiter next and Career builder. These are the opportunities for these companies and companies like them to be the good guys, to be the here, to come and say you know what, that's bullshit, I can't believe they're doing that to you, but guess what? We're going to hook you up and this is what we're going to do. It's just play the hero, jump in there and I hope once again, Indeed figures stuff out because this is not ... Again, you take a look at history, this is not how you want to treat the market, this is not how you want to treat your clients. Joel : All right, let's do over under one year for Indeed to start getting their unique content onto Google for Jobs. Chad : In a year, I'd say they have to within a year. Joel : So under? Chad : Yeah. Joel : I'll say under too. I don't think they can ignore it. Chad : Like I said, and this is the boot in the ass podcast, if you haven't listened to that one guys, you have to go back and listen to boot in the ass podcast. There are going to be Oliver coming back for more growl it's all there is to it, man. They need to, they need to beg for it because ... And like you said, Google will say, yeah, come on in, join the party. They totally get that. But they're not going to be able to continue to do what they're currently doing. Joel : I will say that one of the contacts did say that Indeed still has the best database to search, which I think is a big plus for them, which I also think ties into Google for jobs really nicely because most people would agree that applying through Indeed is pretty user-friendly. If searching for jobs on Google for Jobs shows you the job and says, hey, are the ways you can apply to this job. If indeed has a really good pool of data or people that are in it, and people know that it's easy to apply through Indeed, there is a really good chance that they'll choose Indeed to apply through Google for Jobs. But guess what, if Indeed isn't even playing, no one is going to Indeed to apply anymore. Chad : And that database with entropy much like Monster's. I mean, it will entropy, so they better make that switch, they better make the plan very quickly because to me it's obviously a kick in the nuts but it's the smart play for them. It's the smart play for them. Joel : Well, it just gets curioser and curiouser. Unfortunately, Indeed has coal in and stocking the share [crosstalk 00:39:41] but hopefully who doesn't have coal is our listeners because we love them and we try to give them the best every week with great content hopefully, and we appreciate everyone out there and hope that they have a great December leading up to Christmas. We'll continue being here week in and week out talking about these issues and Indeed will certainly be at the forefront as companies decide on where they spend their money going into next year. We'll get the nitty gritty on where people are going and what contracts look like etc cetera. And we'll be here talking about that on the show. Chad : As we get closer to more holidays, Joel will become more Sappy, just so everybody knows that. And definitely listen for our firing squads to be able to take a look at what's going on on startups and check out ChadCheese.com, we've being making some changes to the site and we appreciate the listenership. Joel : Yep. And #ChadCheese, we will give you a shout out more than likely if you say something smart, snarky, or just intelligent. Just call Chad looking and you'll get a shout out. Go Bucks, big 10 title this week, we need that playoff spot, and- Chad : Knock on wood. Joel : We need Joe Shaker - Shaker advertising to cry in his eggnog. We out. Chad : We out. Outro: This is been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single show. And check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more visit hirerdaily.com, oh, and you're welcome. #Indeed #Twitter #WeWork #MeetUp #AI #Robots #WalMart

The boys hit the road this week, Rocky Mountain High-style in Denver, Colorado to light up the TAtech show. To kick the show off, they announced a partnership with the conference, as well as their newest sponsor Nexxt (formerly Beyond). In return for a their donation, Nexxt will get an exclusive podcast each month, as well as a buttload of awesome content, including webinars, infographics, feats of strength … whatever gets the listeners to pay attention. The Chad and Cheese Podcast got to follow Facebook Jobs and their laundry list of announcements, including a new API that will get them knee-deep into a relationship with the likes of ZipRecruiter, Work4 and Jobscore. Needless to say, Chad and Cheese had a lot to say about the presentation. After that, the guys took aim at Google, LinkedIn, Indeed, Dice, CareerBuilder, Monster … all the usual suspects. It’s a can’t miss 30,000-foot overview of the platform wars currently proliferating the employment scene in the U.S. and most of the world. Enjoy. And be sure to visit our newest Sponsor, Nexxt, and be sure to tune in for our Oct. 17 webinar with the CEO of TextRecruit. Knowledge will be dropped. You need to pick it up. #TATech #Nexxt #Facebook #Google #Denver #Roadshow #LinkedIn #Indeed #Dice #Careerbuilder #Monster #LIVE

Right before our very first Chad & Cheese LIVE show at TAtech Programmatic Summit in Minneapolis. #Video #Programmatic #TAtech #LIVE

Good question... Ho does Chad and Joel create recruitment industry podcasting magic? #Video #Podcast #Topics