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The boys sit down with Max Armbruster to talk RPA... Artificial intelligence is so last month. Meet your future in RPA. Brought to you by the texting giants at Nexxt! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps businesses find qualified candidates with disabilities for their job postings. Chad: Okay. So we've already established texting is probably the best way to connect with candidates, right? Plus next stats show 73% of professionals are open to receiving job opportunities via text and with a 99% delivery rate, you cannot go wrong. Those are two big reasons why you've got gotta love text to hire from Nexxt. That's right. Chad: Text2hire from Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. Nexxt has over 8 million candidates who have opted in to receive jobs via text and you and your clients need qualified candidates. Nexxt can help you find and target qualified candidates who have opted in for job opportunities via text. And in today's competitive market, you need an edge to reach qualified candidates faster. You need text2hire from Nexxt. Chad: Just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Nexxt logo to learn more about how you can gain a competitive edge with opt in texting, text2hire from Nexxt. It just makes sense. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Whew. Joel: Mad Max is on the show today. Chad: I know. It's good shit, dude. Joel: Ah, yeah. Welcome to the show, everybody. I'm Joel Cheesman, your co-host, along with- Chad: Chad Sowash. Joel: And on today's show, we're talking AI versus RPA. And if you're like me, RPA stands for Rapid Projectile Anonymity or something. I don't know. Max, welcome to the show. How are you? Max: I'm very well. Thank you, Joel. Joel: You're very welcome. So you wrote... Well, look, before we get to that, you are CEO and co-founder of Talkpush. So get the elevator pitch and plug out of the way before we get into the real stuff. Chad: Push it real good. Max: Thank you. Thank you. Talkpush is a slogan first of all. Talkpush it real good, by copyright Chad and Joel. Max: But beyond that, we're a messaging platform to help engage with candidates at scale, and we automate a lot of the initial engagements with a candidate to the front of the funnel. And we work in a dozen countries and engage with millions of candidates across messaging platforms like Messenger, SMS, WhatsApp, and automates a lot of the recruitment process after that. Joel: And I will throw in a Death Match alumni. Chad: That's right. Joel: Which is always a solid, solid thing to put on your resume. Chad: You can't beat that. Max: I survived- Max: Barely. Chad: So you wrote an article that said, “Will the Real AI Please Stand Up?” And in Eminem fashion, “Please stand up, please stand up.” And it says, "Why the recruitment industry needs to stop fawning over AI, embrace the RPA, the Robotic Process Automation revolution." Why did you write this? Joel: Wait, what does RPA stand for again? Chad: Robotic Process Automation. Joel: Got it? Max: Right. Well, I think anybody who listens to this show probably empathizes with a feeling of we're a little saturated with AI, the AI pitch and sell. And from my end, as a vendor, I'm still getting probably a quarter or a third of inquiries coming in from people who are asking for AI, and I don't really know what it means most of the time, and it doesn't feel like it's been really thought through. Chad: Do they know what it means? Do they give you a definition of what they think AI is so that you can try to fit- Joel: Oh, no, they don't know what it means. Chad: So you can fit in their box. Joel: That is one big pile of shit. Max: I think, unfortunately, they did read the same books as I have, so they know what machine learning is. They know what the state of the art is, and that's what they want. They want the state of the art AI. They want something that's going to be a machine that's going to learn on top of the data that is continuously feeding itself. Joel: You're giving them way too much credit my friend. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I think they just want to check it off the list of things that they need to do right below chatbot and right above programmatic. Max: I do get some of those guys too. I'm talking about the digital transformation experts that are sending out call for tenders, RFPs specifically with the idea of, “I'm going to grill these guys.” And I'm sitting on these calls answering questions about technology that I don't even know how it's going to be used, so that's where the frustration originally comes from. And I can talk about RPA a little bit, and why I think it's a little bit more of a pragmatic approach. Max: I mean you've had a number of podcasts and shows where you talked about what is AI exactly. There's so many different definitions, but the reality usually falls very short from what people imagine. Joel: But if you read between the lines with your customers and prospects, like what do they really want? Because you have a great section of your post where it's not the fancy, shiny stuff that they're actually using. It's the other stuff. Joel: So HireVue is one of your examples where people aren't using HireVue to like read facial expressions and whether someone's lying, they're using it to create efficiencies around better interviewing through video. Correct? Max: Yeah, the great benefit of video interviewing is the asynchronous conversation. The fact that you don't have to sit through 20 minutes of live call, one after another, because that would take days to go through all that. And instead, you can ask everybody to record, and you can listen to all of them in one go, and you can skip them. I mean it's basically the same value proposition as an answering machine back from the '90s. You know just having all your answers recorded in one place, so you can listen to them in sequence. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Max: And the majority of customers that I've spoken to... I'm sure if you get somebody from HireVue on the show, they'll tell you about what the analytics do for their customers. It'll be a different story perhaps. I mean they still sit through the interview. They still watch the videos, and they don't let the machine make the decision for them, for the most part. Chad: Before we get into the RPA piece, right, you write, "The rise of the AI junkie." So people are becoming AI junkies. Why is that? Max: You know I read the Ray Kurzweil book about singularity, and I was reading science fiction from a young age. So I'm also really excited by the fact that the machines can help us make better decisions, and I love the promise of AI, but I think that the imagination has just caught on fire over the last four or five years. Max: When I started Talkpush five years ago, and I said, "I'm going to create a robot that interviews people." Max: People really looked at me weird, and said, "What a stupid idea." You know? Max: "No one will ever let a robot talk to their candidates." Max: And like two or three years later, people were asking, "Oh, that's great. Can your robot tell me if a candidate is lying? And how honest it is? And can I get a full psychometric analysis?" Max: It happened almost overnight. I mean it was over a two, three year period, but that's how it felt for me. Joel: Max, I've heard some people talk that I believe know this subject pretty well, and they've said things like, "There are only about five or six actual AI companies in the world." Max: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joel: Your Googles, your Microsofts, your Alibabas, you know these kinds of big companies. Is there anyone even in the employment space that you would point to, to say like, “Yeah, they're really onto something,” aside from Google who's getting into the space and maybe LinkedIn/Microsoft? Is there anyone really doing AI in terms of your perspective? Max: I don't want to play that game because I don't know, and I'm trying to get away from that game myself. Hey, I mean I think you're right that the real deep AI, Google and Facebook have a leg up on everybody else, and it's out of my reach. But I think- Joel: I'll take that as a no. Max: Yeah, you can take that as a no. I mean but we all get enough data sets that we can create some sort of... We process millions of candidates every year or so. Of course, we can do some regression analysis and come up with some pretty interesting insights, but I wouldn't call that sort of deep AI where the machine is built to understand what the candidates are saying. Some of the people in our space have hired PhDs who focus on natural language processing, and they may be a little bit deeper and more academic into the topic than we are, but that's all I can say on this topic. Chad: So let's get into RPA. So I've challenged many of these AI vendors over the years in saying, “What you're doing really sounds like it's glorified RPA,” and that's not a bad thing. Right? Because what is RPA, and how could RPA help? Max: RPA is beautiful. What is RPA? Is identifying a process that humans are doing. Chad: Right. Max: And then repeating it and automating it. And the big rise in RPA, which happened over the last three, four years, is backed, you could say, by AI. By the technology that recognizes what a user is doing on his computer and is able to repeat that behavior. So it could be somebody clicking on a mouse and moving a window from one place to another, and when the computer recognizes this sequence happens over and over again, can then automate it. Max: So in itself, there is of course some AI building blocks necessary to deliver that, but what I love about it is that it just focuses on the user. And in our case, the user is the recruiter because we work in talent acquisition. And it's eerie how so many of those companies in our space, we don't even talk about the recruiter. Max: We focus on automation and AI, and this is what the buyers are interested in talking about, automated engagement and AI, but not so much on the actual individual behavior and actions of the recruiter who is the main user. And if we shift the conversation to RPA, we can focus a little bit more on the user, who is the recruiter, and that's still probably 60%, 70% of the cost per hire. You know the total loaded cost per hire is probably linked to the human. Joel: And so speaking about cost per hire, in your LinkedIn posts, you have a list of items that can be automated. Some of those are like scheduling interviews, background checks, running assessments. For the company out there that's looking at what kind of hierarchy or priority list should we have around, what are the first three things that maybe we should automate to save that 80% on cost per hire? What are some of the things that you think in your list should be on the top of an employer's list to automate? Max: Usually the low-hanging fruit is automating that scheduling in a pre-screening because a lot of time is being wasted in just going back-and-forth trying to schedule first and second interviews, so that would be the low-hanging fruit. But anything that's kind of repetitive and mundane in the world of a recruiter is an opportunity, from taking interview notes, to doing background checks, to making sure the candidate is fully informed as part of a pre-onboarding or an onboarding process. All of these could be automated. Chad: So Max, shouldn't we just stop focusing on stupid fucking terms like AI, ML, and RPA and just focus on the problems and how the solutions fix those problems because it doesn't matter if it's AI, ML, RPA, or whatever acronym you want to throw at this fucking thing, it's the solution and if the solution best fits the organization for the problem. Are we getting bogged down in the stupid shit and having the wrong conversations? Max: I agree a 100%. I hope that we get call for tenders and client requests that are focused on how can my team handle three times the volume for the Christmas season? Or- Chad: Yeah. Max: How can I get back to my candidates within minutes instead of hours? Those are good questions that should be tackled. And with the RPA approach... Yeah, sorry. We're back to the acronyms. But if you're focusing on one process, it's a very narrow problem, and you can start with that, and then you can decide later on if you're going to pick another one and another one. Max: I think that for the vendors, companies like myself, it's a good opportunity to shift the conversation because you can really do the Land and Expand model where you would start by automating one process, and if you've done one, it's not that hard to then have the discussion for a second or on a third one. Max: I think that's why you've seen the fantastic growth of companies like UiPath and Automation Anywhere over the last couple of years is because they've just been able to take a bigger market share within their existing install base. Joel: Max, we'll let you get out on this one. In your post, you talk about the AI label almost being like All Natural on every food packaging or gluten-free on everything. Chad: Right. Joel: You know it's technically true, but it's not really sufficient to what you're buying. Do you think there should be some regulation, whether it be self-regulating, or some sort of body that really labels something as legitimate artificial intelligence? Or do you think we should still be in this laissez faire environment where everyone can label whatever they want, sort of willy-nilly? Max: I'm not a strong regulation kind of guy, so if they want to use All Natural, All AI, that's cool with me. I think that it used to be Big Data a few years ago, and now it's, I think, RPA has got the tailwind, and there'll be some other acronym coming up in a couple years' time, and I'm looking forward to it actually. So I don't think that's going to be as... I'm looking forward to the next acronyms. Joel: "Let chaos reign," says Max. Max: AR, Augmented Recruitment. Joel: Ew. Chad: Don't start that now. We're coming up with all these new acronyms. Ah, okay, so we're going to end on that Max. Thanks so much. Thanks for coming on. Joel: Thanks, Max. Thanks for everything. Chad: Again, we'll keep jumping back, and we talk about all the time AI acronyms. It doesn't matter, and I think Max you've really lined it out nicely. Check out Max on LinkedIn, Max Armbruster, CEO of Talkpush. Where else can they find out more about you, Max, or Talkpush? Max: Thanks. I've got this article that you referred to up on our blog, blog.talkpush.com, and looking forward to connect with every one of your followers on LinkedIn of course. Chad: Excellent, guys. Appreciate it. We out. Joel: We out. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more visit chadcheese.com. #AI #RPA #Talkpush #TalkPush #Messaging #process #Robots

The Labor Day edition of this week's Chad & Cheese Podcast is full of goodness: Hire by Google shuts it down, Entelo and ConveyIQ get cozy, AllyO may be melting down and much, much more. Enjoy and show some love to our sponsors: Sovren, JobAdX, and Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies find talent in the largest minority community in the world – people with disabilities. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products and now, based on that technology comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job and just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, tight turn. Chad: Round about. Joel: All right, welcome to the hungover Sweden road trip edition of the Chad and Cheese podcast, HR's most dangerous. Chad: Thanks to my wife Julie for chaffering us. Joel and I are in the backseat of a VW Polo. Joel: I really wish Julie would've worn the black top hat that I got her for the chauffer gig. She did wear the black gloves, though, so I'm okay with that. Chad: Okay, we should stop calling her Jeeves, that's really creepy. That's really fucking ... Joel: If somebody farts in this car, we're stopping the podcast. Chad: We're stopping the podcast. Joel: That's all I'm saying. Yeah, so in this week's show, we're going to be talking about Hire by Google going limp, Entelo and Convey IQ getting married. Chad: Getting jiggy. Joel: And signs of meltdown at Ally O. Stick around, we'll be right back after this word from our sponsor. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent tech space interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas Sap is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. Canvas: We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: And we're back. Joel: And we're back. We're on the road in Sweden, north of Torekov or Gurkenschkerken, Vertiferken. Chad: Last night, that was hilarious. We had dinner with a bunch of Swedes, go figure. We are in Sweden and they, again, very mad that thinking the Swedish chef is Swedish, because the Swedish chef is apparently Danish. Joel: Danish. Chad: Yes. Joel: Which makes no sense and their argument is weak. Chad: Very weak. Joel: So, I'm not buying it. Chad: I'm not buying it either. They should like the Swedish chef. Joel: They do, they do, they do. Yeah, Swedes are a fun group. The robot does not eat in case anyone was interested. It does not eat food, it just exists to destroy us one day. Chad: But I think they've given it some new looks, because I think it was giving you the side eye yesterday. Joel: Yeah, so we had meetings all day and they had the robot at the front of the table and it just stares at ... I think it looks directly at everyone no matter what angle you look at it. Chad: I don't think so, I think it was giving you the side eye. Joel: It was looking at me, yeah. It haunts my dreams every night. Let's get to some shout outs. Chad: Shout outs. Joel: Obviously Tin Guy in the group, Jalen CEO Charlotte marketing exec. We're making friends and building bridges from America to Sweden if you will. Chad: As a matter of fact, we've also heard that the South of Sweden is for sale, so if we can just tell Trump to get off of Greenland possibly, we can have a piece of Sweden. Joel: Yeah, much better real estate here in Sweden than Greenland, maybe less natural resources, but who knows? Who knows? Chad: Shoutout to my boy, Roy Etnyer from Monster. He's originally from Columbus, Indiana, came home to see moms, said hey would you like to play a round of golf? Went and played a round of golf and he unloaded a bunch of Monster golf swag, which was fucking awesome. Great job, Roy. Joel: Yeah, this is where I note the vice president Mike Pence also a brother, a son of Columbus. Chad: Just go ahead and let's smother that one as Julie flips you off. Joel: I'm going to give a shout out to Holland Dombeck, our buddy at Delta. Chad: Yeah, Holland. Joel: She heard our story about Google Events, Hire Events, Indeed Hire Events. Chad: Yeah, Indeed. Joel: Sorry, it's a little hot in here. Can you turn the air on a little bit, Julie? Thanks. Anyway, she had some numbers for us. I don't know if you have those handy or not, but it looks like about $2,000 for these hire events, so in case you didn't know, there are no billboards in Sweden. All the billboards are trucks that farmers have rolled in to make a little extra money, but I did hear that they have to have wheels. They can't be stationary. Chad: Oh, really? Joel: Yes. And all the cows here look really happy. Chad: Anyway, shoutout to Holland for giving us some insights on that. She said they were working well for her. Joel: Yeah, she spoke positively about them. I think we both agree that price will go up on those as they continue to roll them out. It's still in beta. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: I had the opinion that Indeed ... everybody wants to be a platform and Indeed is no different, so if Indeed is also your event, job fair whatever you want to call it provider, that's just another reason to stick around with Indeed, similar to Apple launching music or other services that just add features to make sure you stay on the platform. Chad: I like doubling the price with this whole pain view thing, so yeah, if you start the fricking heroine drip guys, just know you're not getting off of it for awhile. The Indeed heroine drip. Joel: And Indeed's okay with that, I think. Chad: Oh, they're fine with it, yeah. Joel: I think that's their preference. Chad: Yeah, I think they're incredibly smart for doing that and if you're out there using them and just lapping it up, you're probably the dumb one. Joel: Of course, in this case, the first hit is not free, it's about $2,000. Chad: It's not free, yeah. Shout out to Henrik Christiansen, so this dude sees on Twitter that we're coming to Sweden, said hey, come on over to Copenhagen. He didn't know we were already going to be there, so he takes us to dinner at this place called War Pigs, which is amazing. The thing he didn't know ... Joel: Now, when you say "us" it's you and your wife. Chad: Julie, my other half, right yeah. Joel: [crosstalk 00:07:38] ... in this whatsoever. Chad: It's because you didn't show up. Joel: Yeah, I know. Chad: That's what happens when you don't come. So Julie and I go and here's this collaboration with Three Floyd's Brewery that is an Indiana company. I come all the way to fucking ... Joel: Yeah, Munster, Indiana. Chad: Yeah, Munster. Joel: If I'm not mistaken. Chad: I fly all the way to fucking Copenhagen and they're like this is the best beer, you can't imagine how great ... yeah, no it is the best beer. You know why? It's fucking Indiana beer. Joel: That is a bizarre discovery. Chad: It is awesome, though. It was awesome. Joel: The beers we've had you can't get in the U.S. outside of Carlberg, which is not Swedish. Chad: Right. Joel: So, if you follow me on Instagram, I'll be posting my beer tour from Sweden here. Chad: Beer tour, but Henrik also the next morning got up and took me on that 5K run around Christiana, which is that free town that we talked about. Joel: Did you say torture or tour? Because 5K sounds a little torturous to me. Chad: He slowed it down for me, that was nice. But yeah, we went through around Christiana, which is the free town where you pretty much can go get high and do all your stuff. Joel: The Thunderdome of Copenhagen, apparently. Chad: Yes exactly, exactly. Joel: Minus the death. Chad: Thanks a lot, Henrik. Appreciate it. Love that you took me to a place that had amazing beer and a run the next morning. He planned that shit. Joel: Did you mention his company? Chad: Yeah, he's the CEO of Job Safari. Joel: All right, give him a little shoutout, a little love. Chad: Also the COO of Job Index, still affiliated with ... Joel: Where are we going soon? Chad: Where are we going? We're going to Recruiter Nation Live in San Francisco. Joel: And if you look at the lineup, it's a home run. Chad: In the Bay Area, I mean you've got to do it. Joel: Yep. Chad: And we've got TA Tech and you know what that means. Joel: Death match, baby. Chad: Death match. Joel: Full roster. Chad: In Austin. Joel: Who's joining us this year? Chad: Who is joining us this year? We have Job.com ... Joel: Asses First. Chad: Asses First, my favorite company. Joel: SeekOut. Chad: SeekOut. Joel: And Pez Candy. Chad: Pez.ai Joel: What is your favorite Pez head? Chad: I don't know, I had so many of them when I was little. Joel: That's a tough one. Chad: Yeah, I loved the new ... Joel: I'm going to go with the Flintstones. Chad: The Flintstones, Barney or ... ? Joel: Barney, Fred. Chad: Oh. Joel: I guess Fred would be my favorite. Chad: Like the family? Okay, okay. Joel: Yeah, so I'm going to go with the Flintstones. It's kind of an old school. Chad: Mine was always a Marvel kind of like the Hulk. Joel: Thor, Hulk, yeah. Chad: Yeah, the Hulk, Spider-Man, that kind of stuff. Joel: It's endless, the magic never stops with Pez. Chad: Dude, it's amazing. So smart. Smart marketing. I just don't know why they don't do them as much anymore. Joel: HR Tech, we're getting into November. I guess we could get it October 1. We got Unleash in Paris. Chad: We do, I think yeah HR Tech's first. Joel: Is that in October or November? Chad: HR Tech is in ... Joel: It is October. Chad: October, early October. Joel: You're right, okay. Chad: Or mid-October. Joel: My bad. Chad: HR Tech going to Vegas, they're letting us in. Joel: Viva Las Vegas. Chad: As a matter of fact, not just letting us in, we're going to be on stage twice. Joel: Viva Las Vegas. Twice? Chad: Twice. Joel: They went from banning us to giving us two show spots, I love it. Chad: Yeah no, I love that stuff. Joel: Spreading the love. Chad: We'll be clad in Shaker Recruitment Marketing gear, I'm sure. Still waiting on the sizing for my Shaker Recruitment Marketing suit. Joel: Three-piece suits. Chad: Yes. Joel: With the Chicago Cubs lining. I think that's going to be in there. Chad: And your tuxedo t-shirt. So yeah, that and then, we go to Unleash, which is in Paris. Joel: The trip is sponsored by SmashFly? Chad: Smash Fly. Joel: Yeah. Trip powered by SmashFly. Chad: Trip's powered by SmashFly. HRTech powered by JobCase. Joel: Love it. Chad: Don't forget about JobCase. Fred Goff and the kids over there. Joel: LinkedIn for those who aren't on LinkedIn. Chad: Yes, for the 70 percent of people who are not on LinkedIn, JobCase. That's your play. That's their new slogan. Joel: Did we just come up with their marketing campaign? They get $100 million in funding and we just came up with their marketing. Chad: We've already ... Joel: Say it ain't so. Let's get to the news, because ... Chad: Topics. Joel: ... news is hot this week. Chad: Hot. Joel: We leave the country and things fall apart. Chad: So hot. Joel: Google ... Chad: What is up with this? Joel: ... Hire ... Chad: This is crazy. Joel: ... letter goes out to users this week that they are sun setting the product. Chad: In a year. Joel: The Internet's go wild with conspiracy theories, opinion. What are your takeaways on this move? Because shock is the first thing that came to my mind. Chad: I think the Google Hire team was shocked and here's why I think the Google Hire team was shocked ... Joel: It's Hire by Google, we should get it right. Chad: Okay, yeah, they should just first and foremost stop changing the name, but ... Joel: I think they are. I think they're done changing the name. Chad: Now, they're going to stop changing the name, yeah. That's why. They finally found the name, they're like okay, we're done. Joel: Maybe that's the hidden reason. Chad: It could've been. Joel: What do we call ourselves this month? Damn it, we can't come up with anything, so let's just shut it down. Chad: We're done. So, last week, they were doing webinars about sampling HR integrations, partnerships, those types of things. Earlier this month, they released a customer-success video from Four Points Brewing, I believe it is, so all of this was happening and they're driving this amazing content and they're doing all the right things. Joel: There was no writing on the wall ... Chad: None. Joel: ... that things were falling apart. Chad: None. Dude, I'm telling you right now, this came from the top. They pointed and said sorry, you've got to go and I personally believe that this has to do with this antitrust case that you had a decision between becoming an entire system for recruiting or just doing search and if you become the entire system, then there's antitrust possibilities that could be thrown around in there, but if you just do search and you're focused on search and you've made some of the changes and customizations that they've made inside Google for Jobs, then you're okay. Joel: It was definitely a Pompeii type of situation, right? Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Like the volcano erupted unexpectedly, everyone's left in the rubble. So, this was not a slow death. It looks like something happened quickly to kill this thing off. We will never know probably why. Chad: We hear some people saying that it just was going to be too hard ... Joel: Yep. Chad: ... and they weren't going to make the money and yada, yada, yada and I don't believe ... they would've rolled this down slowly. You wouldn't have seen the chop that you saw. No way. Joel: Yeah, I agree that when they have free services, the chop makes sense, because no one's paying for it, but they had paying clients, people that loved it. We have an interview if you look through our archives, someone in England that was one of their first enterprise ... Chad: FrameStore. Joel: ... yeah, they had just launched enterprise, right? Chad: FrameStore, yeah. Joel: They've been launching features consistently. Chad: They just launched enterprise. Joel: Yeah and she was incredibly happy. I mean, stopped short of saying she loved her ATS ... Chad: Yeah, she didn't want to go that far, but she was close. Joel: But she really liked it a lot and so, yeah we may never know. It can't be a coincidence that they just had a lawsuit filed against them. Chad: Yes. Joel: And this happens. Now whether or not the lawyers got the attention of the c suite and they said okay, let's look at this thing and they said the numbers really aren't there to justify going to court for the next five years, because my personal opinion is if the product was rocking it, making tons of money, they would've been fine fighting it in court, but maybe it was like we've got to fight this thing. We're making little money, your attitude of does it affect the search business? We really don't want to be in any trouble with the EU anymore than we are. Joel: This whole GDPR thing, we're collecting data for candidates. Maybe it's just like fuck it, it's just not worth it with all that hassle, we're going to pull the plug. But who are some of the winners and losers in Google getting the hell out of the game? Chad: Well, first off Google is the big loser, because now they're not getting back into this space when it comes to this kind of product number one. Number two, if you were a company who is now basing your business off of Google, even some of these API's right? Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. Chad: You've got to question whether one day this shit's just going to be sunset ted. Oh, guess what, in a year it's going to be sunsetted. Just from my standpoint, I think anybody using Google and I mean, I was big when definitely the college recruiters ... there are 4,000+ companies that are using these Google API's. Joel: Well that's a good question. There's still the search API and there's still Google for Jobs. Do you believe that either of those could be gone soon or if so, which one? Chad: I would say no, I would say no, but don't know after seeing something like this happen. It's almost like they're running scared. This is like Facebook's knee jerk reaction to taking all of their targeting away, their audience targeting away. It was a knee jerk reaction and it happened boom, just really quick. This is the same kind of thing. Joel: Yeah, I agree that ... I don't see the search API scaring anyone, pissing anyone off. Chad: I hope not. Joel: They're making revenue from that. It's a pretty easy business for them. They already get search better than anyone else and I think that's an easy product for them to have. The Google for Jobs job search, I think they're probably looking at that. Now, they haven't turned on the paper click machine yet and I'm sure they're doing the numbers saying hey, if x percent do paper click, what could we make? And the numbers on that are probably pretty good. I think they could make a lot of money on their Google for Jobs products. Chad: Yeah, I agree. I do agree. I would hate to see that go away, that's for sure. But again, I think Hire by Google was the sacrifice, so that they could focus on Google for Jobs and actually making money the way they know how to make money. Joel: Maybe the gods said you must sacrifice one of your children. Chad: Yeah, Larry and Sergei came out. Joel: And they picked Hire. And you know, some of the feedback as well was look, our business is hard, our audience is hard, our customers are hard to sell to. Part of it might've been Google ... Chad: I don't believe that. Joel: ... got into that and said screw that. So, you're not buying that excuse? Chad: No. They have a 3 million company base and suite that they can sell to, so I don't buy that. Joel: It was a perfect fit for the G-Suite, for companies to plug in a nice little ATS, job posting. Chad: Calendar, yeah, everything. Joel: Scheduling all that. Chad: So easy. Joel: That made really good sense for the product. Chad: Yep. Joel: And not having this ... to me, the biggest winner is Microsoft/LinkedIn, because now they have the lane pretty much all to themselves to enterprise software and hiring. Chad: And what will LinkedIn do to double down on something like this, because when Facebook killed their targeting, LinkedIn started to ramp up their targeting, right? So it's like now LinkedIn is going to be doing more Facebook-like targeting better possibly than Facebook will be doing on ads. What will they do to double down on something like this? Joel: Yeah, I mean LinkedIn is growing at such a rate that they're going to have some of these Facebook issues soon if they're not already. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: And the targeting of advertising, which they are growing, they're growing their network to target ad segments, so yeah I expect that to be something. I think LinkedIn would just rather put their head down and hope nobody notices for the next 12 months and then just gain market share and then deal with it if something comes up, but it's inevitably going to happen to every social network and job ads. I think Twitter you won't be able to target similarly there or Snapchat or anyone else. It's going to hit everyone. It just hit Facebook first. Joel: But yeah, I think LinkedIn's a big winner, I think Indeed's probably celebrating the hit that Google took. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: They're probably praying Google for Jobs goes next. Any of the other big job boards are happy, every ATS on the planet is pretty happy that Google's out of the game. Chad: Oh yeah, the Jazz HR's of the world ... Joel: Yeah, the little guys, the S&B players. Chad: ... are like fuck yeah, get the fuck out, Google. Joel: Yep, yep, those cheers of the world were ATS owners celebrating, especially the little guys that service S&B's, most of the I-Sims of the world, the Jobvite’s et cetera, Smart Recruiters. I think they felt okay about a world ... or at least it wasn't going to impact them soon, but the little guys were pretty concerned and they're celebrating the demise of Hire by Google. And I do agree that we will not see Google do anything again in our lifetimes. Joel: Like they tried Google Base 10-15 years ago, they've done this, shut it down after two years. I do not see them doing anything like this again any time soon. Chad: Can't fucking believe it. Joel: When we come back, we'll talk about the Entelo Convey IQ acquisition. JobAdX: Nope, nah, not for me. All these jobs look the same. Ugh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs just half heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it: we live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So, why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? JobAdX: Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel, begging to be discovered. JobAdX: Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team? Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@jobadx.com. Attract, engage, employ with Job Ad X . Chad: And we're back. Joel: I had no idea there was so much countryside in Sweden. It's like Indiana in Europe. Chad: Yeah, that kind of Ohio ish around here where it's more hills. Joel: Yeah, a little more. Chad: Yeah, more hills. Joel: Topography. Chad: Yes. Joel: That's your word for the day. Chad: Yes, topography. Terrain. Joel: Terrain. Chad: Terrain features, yes. Joel: So big acquisition, which we thought would be the big news of the week until Hire by Google did their thing, but Entelo, the rumors are true. You heard it here first has acquired Convey IQ. Discuss. Chad: Yeah, it's interesting. It sounds as if, because we've been hearing for many months that Entelo was on pretty much life support, so I don't know so much about Convey IQ, how much money, how much runway they had, but it sounds ... Joel: And Convey IQ was Take the Interview previously. Chad: Yes, Take the Interview. Joel: Made a major pivot, created sort of a hub spot for recruiting, marketing platform. Chad: Right. Joel: Got some money, I think, additional money when they did that and yeah, my comment that got picked up was this feels a little bit like two dinosaurs snuggling together to try to stave off the extinction that was coming after the asteroid hit, so I think the money they got for the acquisition, it feels a little bit like a Hail Mary. It feels a little bit like hey, you've given us a lot of money, just give us a little bit more, back to that drug addict analogy. Just give us a little bit more and we'll make it work. Chad: Keep me on drip. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Yeah, keep me on the drip. Joel: So, they made the acquisition. As far as I can tell, the Convey IQ team out in New York is going to moving to San Francisco. Danielle Weinblatt, their CEO or founder's going to be head of product, I believe. A couple other people are going to be going over. I assume probably some of the sales folks if there are any will join Entelo. So yeah, we'll see. I think it's another take on the whole platform thing, try to be all things to all people and this is sort of their attempt to be that platform. Chad: I think if you're a CEO of a startup that is kind of fish out of water and taking its last breath, you're going to say hey look, throw me a little bit more water, because you're going to lose all your money or we can make this great marriage, because I do believe the marriage of Entelo and Convey IQ makes a hell of a lot of sense, because Entelo in itself is really a matching algorithm, so you have your data from your job, goes in, it matches. Chad: That's all well and good, what do you do next? Well, then the RMP takes over Convey IQ and it starts the messaging, the drip campaign, the nurturing campaigns and that kind of stuff, right? So, they fit together very, very nicely. The big question is will they still be able to sell it? Joel: Yeah and the customers they've had, will they come back? The customers they do have, will they stick around with the new services? Initially with Entelo, we've heard a lot about the exodus of their leadership. Chad: Yes. Joel: So, if you're going to fill those gaps buying another company is a nice way to fill those leadership gaps that you have so yeah, we'll see. I think it's a long shot. What I've heard from people that it is a good marriage. Time will tell, time will tell. Chad: Yeah, there's a very long list of execs/leadership that have left Entelo within the last year ... Joel: Pretty much everyone. Chad: So, good and bad, good and bad. First and foremost, the bad it's hard to lose great, experienced people. The good, that's all money from an overhead standpoint and they can try again to build from the ground up with Danielle and her team. The move from New York to California, I think is ... that's going to be kind of shaky. Joel: Yeah. Chad: I don't think that's an easy move for somebody who has a life. Joel: So, Entelo people search sourcing looking for it's last breath, our next story takes us to another sort of people search aggregation data scraping, monitoring whatever. Zap Info, formerly Read, Write, Web, Drop, Clip, Snap, Snip. Bergdeferken. Chad: Web Clip Drop I think it was, Web Clip Drop. Joel: They've been Zap Info now for quite awhile and Doug Berg of Techies and Job to Web sold to SAP for $110 million. Chad: Fucking genius. Joel: Started this thing up a couple years ago. We talked about I think recently, they've added messaging, text messaging to their platform. Chad: Google Voice. Joel: They've added Google Voice to be able to call candidates. If anyone understands evolving, having to zag when the government is zigging, GDPR issues et cetera and Doug understands those things and I think that he's transforming the company into something much more than just grabbing profiles from the web. And I think that the people that have invested in his company this week announced C-2 round to the tune of $1.75 million understand Doug's vision and are pretty optimistic about where he's going. We'll see. Chad: Yeah, yeah. So overall, $3 million. Doug very smart, not taking a ton of money, because he knows he's building something up, I would assume, to get acquired by somebody big much like he did with ... Joel: That's his jam. Chad: Oh yeah, that's his jam. He does a very good job of that, so you don't take a shit ton of money, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So you make sure that obviously your take is much larger than your investors, but the dude has always been very good at what you like to say see around corners. Joel: See around corners, yep. Chad: And they do that so well and adding features and then really doing some slight pivots, but they don't look like pivots. They just look like that's the natural evolution of the actual product itself. Joel: Yeah, they don't make hamburgers and then all of a sudden they're doing waffles or something. There is a natural progression to what they do and I think it is a word of ... it is a lesson for startups out there and people that want to start up a company, the blueprint for success in our industry tends to be industry knowledge, you know who you're selling to, you know the audience, and you don't get too big too fast. We've seen Indeed grow very organically slowly, only take roughly $10 million. Joel: Jobs to Web, Doug's former company similar thing. I think Techies might've taken a lot of money, maybe he learned a lesson from that 90s go-go period, but yeah, it's be lean, take little money, know that it's going to take time. Our audience is tough to sell to and your chances of success are much better than doing the opposite of that. Chad: And partnerships. The partnerships that he's pulling together and some of this money's actually coming from the Randstad Innovation Fund. They're one of the new funders and Randstad obviously full of recruiters. If they can get this product embedded in Randstad, Jesus man, I mean that's fucking huge. They're like the number two staffing organization in the world, add the RPO on top of that, so Doug is not a dumb man. Chad: Being able to not just get money from Randstad, but also I would believe they're working with them on the tech side to be able to be a part of really the recruiter's normal routine. Joel: Yeah, there's a pretty good chance we'll see Doug at a conference near us soon. We'll have to get him on the mic and see what the future holds for them. He's always a good interview. Chad: Nothing but smiles and hugs. Joel: He's always a good interview and yeah, him and Tim Sackett could hug it out for hours, those two guys. Well let's move to some insider info I guess. We got a tip that things at AllyO ... Chad: Just the tip. Joel: ... may not be going very well. So, we got a tip that basically said hey, if you got a moment, go check out Glassdoor and the reviews for Ally O, so I went out there and looked at what was going on at AllyO ... Chad: You got a hot tip. Joel: ... hot tip, yes. I love those hot tips. Anyway, I won't make a joke, because your wife's in the car. Chad: She's already shaking her head. Joel: She's already ... she knows me too well. Chad: She's like these guys are so fucking dumb. Joel: So anyway, as I'm looking at some of the reviews, basically most of the tech team, things are just fairly negative over at Glassdoor right now, so we've got one "I've worked here for close to six months. First off, let me point out that half the reviews here are fake." Well that's an interesting take on this. Why would there be fake reviews for AllyO? Who's trying to tank AllyO if that's the case? So anyway, this same review says in all caps "PLEASE TRUST ME AND STAY CLEAR OF ALLYO." As she bumps, "All the AI they claim to have is fake, ever wonder why they don't use their own products to run their TA? If it was so great, you'd think you'd use your own product, hahaha." Chad: And that was a tech person? Joel: That was just a current employee. They didn't actually specify. I'll just read some of the titles here. Consider yourself warned, 0 stars if I could, the exodus has begun, startup a lot of security gaps, and it goes on and on, so we reached out to Bennett Sung, their head of marketing. Chad: Good man, yes. Joel: And admitted that there are some issues and they're a growing company. They've grown from a small amount of people to over 100-150, so it was kind of a growing pains thing, we'll get through it, be patient. So whether or not ... take whatever side you want, maybe there's a little bit of truth in both of those, but at least from Glassdoor's point of view, things are fairly bad at AllyO at the moment. Chad: Well, if you are working at AllyO or you were, feel free to drop us a line, go to chadcheese.com, go down to the bottom, drop us a line, let us know, give us your information anonymously, but we'd like to get some insights ... Joel: The tech's insights are a little bit alarming, I guess. If the AI is fake and they're not eating their own dog food, that's a little bit alarming. Chad: Well that is ... I mean, we've called companies out on that in the past on the show and actually doing research and saying, well if your tech's so good, why the fuck aren't you using it? Joel: Yeah, do you think that there's a little bit of AI fallout happening? Like we've talked about AI's being replaced by diversity and inclusion. The hot terminology is moving away from AI? Chad: Yeah ... Joel: Or do you think it's still ... ? Chad: I think first and foremost, people are getting sick and tired of hearing AI when they don't know what the fuck it actually means. Joel: Yeah, I agree with that. Chad: I think we're really focusing way too much on these fucking terms and not the end result. Joel: Yeah, the results. Chad: You know, what's the problem that you're trying to solve, maybe AI's going to help, maybe RPA, it doesn't matter, just focus on the fucking solution. Joel: Yeah, for so long we've heard hey, I need a chat bot, but I'm not sure why I need a chat bot. Just because everyone's talking about it and everyone's doing it, so maybe people are realizing I don't necessarily need AI, because I'm not even sure what that is, but what results, what problems are you solving, what pain points are you curing? Like I think people are hopefully getting to that point as opposed to just I need to check off AI in my annual budget expenses. Chad: Yeah and that RFP, they were asking if we have AI. If you're a company out there and you have an RFP and it actually asks about AI, then you're a fucking idiot. Quit asking dumb fucking questions on your RFP's. Joel: Focus on plugging your bias hole, I think, is what you're saying. Chad: Yes. Always, always. And also, vendors, I know it is so attractive to be able to see something like that on an RFP and then say look, look, look, we need to put this all over our marketing material. Don't fucking do it. Focus on what matters. Joel: Yeah. Chad: That's the solution, the outcome. Joel: Well, we're going to end the show on a little bit of a somber note. The industry lost I guess a giant and a forefather of the industry. You were obviously very close to him. I felt close, but not as close as you, so I'll just hand the mic to you and let you talk about Bill Warren, a father of online recruiting passed away this week. Chad: Yeah, so many of you might not know Bill Warren, because he was a very silent kind of guy, kind of in the shadows in most cases. He started Online Career Center, OCC.com which actually was morphed with the Monster board into Monster.com, so he was actually the very first president of Monster.com, he left there, started one of the very first ASP-driven applicant tracking systems. That morphed over into the Direct Employers Association, there were a handful of us that started that thing up. Chad: And I have to say one of my best and worst memories in spending probably about 12 years with Bill was the very first days when we were starting up direct employers, because I would spend probably three hours with him every single day talking through why we shouldn't shut this fucking thing down. Joel: Why we should not. Chad: Why we should not shut this down ... Joel: So, he wanted to go home? Chad: He needed reassurance that we were on the right track and that one day came when America's Job Bank actually shut down and we had about at that time at Direct Employers, we had about 140 members. I led that project and we created the National Labor Exchange, which was to fill that gap. And we went from 140 members to over 400 in 18 months. It took us five years to get to 140, in 18 months went to 400, so I mean that was the kind of patience he had. Chad: He did have obviously some pretty damn good resolve, but generally he wasn't the guy who was on stage like the Jeff Taylor's of the world who was incredibly boisterous and out there. Joel: Very Midwestern in his demeanor. Chad: Yes. Yeah. Joel: Yeah, so my memory of Bill, probably two things. One was he wasn't a techy. Chad: No. Joel: He wasn't a carnival barker, he wasn't a technology guy, he was really about people and I thin the allegiance and loyalty that people had to him is a testament to that and my greatest appreciation of Bill is what he did for me when I was doing Cheesehead back in the mid-2000's. He believed in it, he thought it was interesting, he believed in me, liked me. Joel: And frankly, bankrolled much of Cheesehead and if you read Cheesehead back then and enjoyed it, you really have Bill to thank and the organization, because they were so supportive of me and that was something that I will never be able to pay back and I will miss Bill and just remember him as a tremendous supporter, someone who believed in me when he really had no reason to and someone who made a real impact on people more so than maybe the business side of it to me. Chad: And that's where this friendship started. Joel: Yeah, we have Bill to thank for this podcast, I guess. So Bill, what better way to say thank you than on the podcast, which exists because of you. Chad: Not much to say other than we out. Joel: We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to what's it called? A podcast, the Chad, the Cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet, you're listening, it's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss, so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhow, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Walken: That way, you won't miss an episode and while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com, just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out. #HirebyGoogle #Google #antitrust #Entelo #ConveyIQ #Marketing #Matching #ZAPinfo

Chad & Cheese are turning the world of employment branding on its head. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities.​ Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Hidey ho. Joel: Oh, yeah. Back again. What's up Chad? Chad: Dude, I am fucking excited right now. Joel: You are fucking excited. Chad: I'm so excited. Joel: I'm ducking my head under the desk. I'm so scared of how excited you are. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Welcome everybody. Again, this is the Chad and Cheese Podcast, in case you didn't know. This is Joel Cheesman. Chad: Chad Sowash. Joel: And we have a very special series of podcasts coming up that Chad and I would like to introduce you to. Chad: Yeah, they're called the Cult Brand Series that we wanted to put together. And Joel and I had an opportunity to go to The Gathering of Cult Brands last February in Banff, Canada, and it was amazing. Joel: Canada. Chad: I think that the coolest thing from my standpoint, Joel, was really trying to understand what the fuck a cult brand is. My head's still reeling. But I personally wanted to bring that message kind of like down the mountain. Ha, see what I did there? Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: To talent acquisition and HR, and I know that you felt that you had a great time there too, but it wasn't just about the experience. It was more than that. Joel: I mean how long have we been hearing that recruiting is marketing? Chad: Right. Joel: But yet, do we actually live that? Do we actually practice it? And the answer is probably, no, in most cases. Chad: Right. Joel: Both from a marketing perspective and from a recruitment talent acquisition perspective. So our experience at The Gathering, I think, really opened our eyes to the fact that all these brands were preaching talent, employees, are our first sort of level of brand and where we build our purpose, but they talked a good talk, but when it actually came to walk the walk, a lot of the CEOs and the people that were in charge of these companies didn't really get how are we connecting with candidates. Joel: How are we making their experience as solid as possible when they go through the hiring process and the interviewing process, as well as how do we retain top talent through a brand of purpose to make sure that people stay on the job and love what they do because they love what they're doing? Joel: And I think that this series really crystallizes our desire to say, “Look, let's get some real marketing professionals, some real meat and potatoes, to come on the show, talk about how they can build brand, how they can build a bridge with HR and talent acquisition, and how we can really all get on the same page in terms of building a solid brand that can recruit and retain the best people around the world.” Chad: Which is why we have a special guest. Joel: We do have a special guest. Is this when we introduce him? Chad: I think so. Joel: Awesome. Well, welcome to the show everyone, Chris Kneeland. Chris is the cofounder of The Gathering of Cult Brands and the CEO of the Cult Collective, which is an agency. So give us the elevator pitch on you and why we should care that you're here. Chris: Well, I've devoted the last decade of my career to this concept of a cult brand and hope that by the time this series is done, Chad will be able to explain it to others as well as I can because there's something very powerful in the concepts of cults. Chris: Certainly, there's negative connotations in the societal or religious sense of the word, but there's a lot of enviable connotations as people create a brand that people don't just buy, but they buy into. And I think there's a lot of things that people are doing wrong, and there's a lot of things that people simply don't know they could be doing when it comes to boosting their levels of customer adoration. Chad: So from your side of the house, Chris, because I mean you're on the big brand, the big marketing side of the house. We first came to you and said, “Hey, look, HR, talent acquisition recruiting, they need to understand this.” But why do you believe it's important for HR talent acquisition and recruiting to understand what actually makes a cult brand? Chris: Well, it's hugely important, and it's important for two reasons. One, there's a high correlation. So when we look at the brands that are dubbed the most cult like brands on the planet, they're highly correlated with brands that are also the most desirable places to work, so that's not an accident. Chris: Now, I'm not sure which is the chicken or the egg. Are the Dallas Cowboys awesome places to work because people just love working with the Cowboys, or is it the fact that they've built an organization and a culture that has resulted in the talent that has made them so desirable. Right? So that's something we can explore on this series. Chris: But I think the other issue is that traditional HR professionals are ill-equipped to solve this problem, and traditional marketing departments are distracted to solve this problem. We have an employee group, a culture situation that's largely orphaned because the HR professionals don't have the resources that are to be found in the marketing group, but the marketing group doesn't have the mandate to fix it the way that the HR department does. Joel: Chris, we sat down in February, in Canada, to talk to you, and one of the things that you said almost eight months ago or 10 months ago has stuck with me since, and the conversation went something like this. I said, "Do you feel like marketing looks down on HR?" Do you remember what your response was to me? Chris: Yes, I said, "Doesn't everybody look down on HR?" Joel: Yes, you did say that. So my question to you in this series, and as we move forward, is HR, and recruitment, and marketing are historically divided. I don't even know if they speak the same language. Right? So how the two come together to benefit not only recruiting and retention but for just the overall corporate brand? In other words, what can we do to help bridge the two departments together to strengthen the core organization? Chris: I hope that this series will do two things. I think that the people that both of those stakeholders report to, probably presidents or CEOs, need to step up and realize that there is probably a flaw in their organizational structure about how some of these problems are going to get fixed. And we are starting to see heads of people, and heads of internal engagement, and heads of culture, are new C-suite positions that don't report to HR or marketing. They report directly to the CEO. Chris: You know I like HR professionals. I don't mean to say that everybody looks down there. I mean that they have been historically viewed as very tactical, not as brands strategic assets, and they should be. But the marketing department has dollars, and capabilities, and agency resources, and skill sets that are being wasted that should be redeployed into the HR coffers and into those HR teams. So we've got to find a way to stop thinking of these as disparate silos, but rather peers that can work together for the common good. Chad: Well, excellent, Chris. You'll hear more from Chris Kneeland, I promise, during the Chad and Cheese Cult Brand Series. This is just the introduction, so look for it, Cult Brand Series. We're really excited. Thanks again, Chris, for joining us, and thank you so much for introducing us to these amazing people at these amazing brands. Chris: My pleasure. Joel: You're the man Chris. We're so excited to bring this series to our listeners. Thanks a lot, Chris. Chris: My pleasure. Thanks, guys. Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese com. Oh, yeah, you're welcome. #CultBrands #TheGathering #Brand #EmployerBrand #EmploymentBrand #Marketing #creative

Authenticity is a tough thing to come by these days, but Amazon takes things to a whole other level, and the boys hash out what's wrong with the employers branding strategies. Oy! Plus, Stepstone wants to have its cake and eat it too, college degrees ain't all that, Indeed goes offline with its latest product and much, much more. Enjoy and give sponsors Sovren, JobAdx and Canvas lots o' love.​ PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is changing minds and changing lives through disability inclusion. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: I think I realized why we should not do live shows, face-to-face, on a regular basis. Chad: Why? Joel: Because my liver would quit. It would just say, "Fuck you, I'm out." Chad: "I can't do this anymore. Oh my God. Oh my God." Chad: (singing) Joel: So welcome to this weeks show, live from beautiful Fishers, Indiana. Chad: Woo-hoo. Joel: At Ale Emporium, off of Olio Road. Chad: Olio. Joel: Come out and say hi, because we'll probably be here. Chad: We might still be here, in the fetal position. [crosstalk 00:01:04] In the corner. Joel: I'm Joel Cheesman, your co-host. Chad: And I am Chad Sowash. Joel: On this weeks show, we're talking about Indeed going off-line. Chad: Uh. Joel: IAC, that big internet company, making a big acquisition. Chad: Can I get another beer? Server: Sure thing... Chad: Yeah. Same thing, the Weizengoot. Joel: The StepStone's double-standard. Chad: Ooh. Joel: We'll be right back, after this word from a sponsor. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now, based on that technology, comes Sovren's Artificial Intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit-to-job. And, just as importantly, the jobs fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: And we're back. Joel: We never left. Chad: WE never left, we were always here. Joel: Isn't editing great? Chad: It was amazing, I love this shit. So, yeah man. I love coming up and coming to the Ale, having a few beers. Joel: Yup. Chad: Having some pizza. Joel: What are we drinking today? Let's do a quick beer review. Chad: The Weizengoot. Joel: The Weizengoot, [foreign language 00:02:33] Chad: It is a Hefeweizen. Joel: A Hefeweizen, yes. Chad: Made here locally, so it's not a... You have the [crosstalk 00:02:41] Joel: I have the list here. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's pretty lengthy. I had the Dare Devil Liftoff before that, which I find very tasty. Chad: Now, it is beautiful. But the Weizengoot is a German-style Hefeweizen. Bananas and clove aroma, medium-light- Joel: Thank you, bartender. Chad: Oh, thank you. I just got my next Weizengoot. So, yeah. Good beer, good pizza. Joel: Let's do a cheers and some shout-outs. Chad: Cheers. Joel: I think that's appropriate. Chad: Gerry Crispin. Joel: (singing) Chad: 72. Joel: That's my best Marilyn Monroe imitation. Chad: 72. And, guess what? SO, I messages him this morning- Joel: Did he really reveal his age, or was that just off- Chad: NO, I saw it on Facebook. Joel: Oh, Facebook. Okay. Chad: So, I messaged him this morning and said, "Dude, happy birthday. We put up a page to be able to, pretty much, memorialize all the Gerry tales." He's like, "Oh, thanks so much man. On my way to Burning Man." He's on his way to Burning Man, right now. Joel: That's awesome. SO, to blow your mind a little bit. Chad: Yeah. Joel: When you and I, probably, met Gerry, he was about our age. Chad: Oh, shit. No way. Yeah, probably. Fuck. Fuck. Not that Gerry's old. Joel: SO, Burning Man and tattoos in Bangkok are in our future. Thanks Gerry, for the inspiration. Chad: Yes. Thanks for that, Gerry. Bucket list. We were received a message from Richard Essex. Tell us about this one. Joel: Richard may need some counseling. Richard is a former [crosstalk 00:04:14] CareerBuilder employee and heard one of our podcast, You Will Know Us By the Trail of CareerBuilder Dead, or something. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: And said it brought tears to his eyes, listening to the number, I guess, of people that he knew, that were no longer around. Just, the devastation that CareerBuilder has taken on. Chad: He was gone, so I don't know if that means he was laughing so hard he was crying or he was crying because he was so sad. So, either way, Richard- Joel: You could also take his name and some iteration of it, and create Dick Sex. So, that could be why he's a little tearful. Chad: Moving on. Joel: Richard man, we're praying for you. Chad: Praying for you, man. You're not there anymore, so don't worry about it. We can only hope Dom buys that thing. Tim Proctor- Joel: Timmy. Chad: ... the Walking outro is awesome. So, Joel said, "Hey look, should we get new outros?" I said, "Why the fuck the not? What do you want to do?" So, he comes back with this Christopher Walken outro. If you haven't listened to the end of the podcast, definitely listen today. We'll be playing it. It is funny as fuck. Joel: It's pretty good. It has inspired more celebrity outros, if you will. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I'm kind of torn between who's next. We've got the Deadpool, we've got Jack Nicholson, we have Leonardo DiCaprio. Chad: So listeners, if you have an idea of your favorite outro, at least a celebrity outro, let us know. Joel: Shawshank... Who's... Chad: Anthony Dufrene. Joel: No, no. The other one. Chad: Oh, Morgan Freeman? Joel: Morgan Freeman, yeah. [crosstalk 00:06:04] He's an option. Yeah, there are many celebrity impersonations out there. Which one should do the next Chad & Cheese outro? Hashtag us at ChadCheese. Chad: Big shout-out to our friends over at Bayard advertising. Mainly, Daniel O'Neill. So Daniel, I want to let you know that- Joel: Daniel stepped up. Chad: ... right now, we are having our corporate outing, the Chad & Cheese corporate outing. We have the Colonel Taylor's Small Batched Bourbon and also... Joel: And the Redbreast 12 Year cask-strength Irish Whiskey. Daniel has got to be on some AA watch list, somewhere. Chad: Yes. I love it. Joel: Somebody is watching his buying activities and saying, "We have a drunkard on our hands." So Daniel, watch out for the AA police out there. Chad: So, what I love right now is the Agency's swag game is escalating. Joel: Alcoholism is no laughing matter, Chad, by the way. Chad: It's escalating, okay? So, we get amazing swag from our travel sponsor, Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Then we just get new Yetis from them. Ext thing you know, we get a new Bayard Koozie, or whatever. What was it, tumbler? Joel: Stop with the tumblers. Chad: Okay. Joel: If it's not Yeti or... Chad: Keep on sending, send those tumblers. Top-shelf alcohol- Joel: ... Frisbee. And Frisbees. Chad: Oh yeah, yeah. So, that was a swag-bomb, by the way. So, don't do that, that's all I have to say. Joel: Somewhere there's a closet at Bayard with mad swag from the 2000's. Chad: Whoever thought it was funny to send me an Indeed Frisbee, yeah. It went straight to the trash. Just so you know. Joel: Yeah, I don't need the Glassdoor hacky sack, thank you very much. Chad: I actually kept my Glassdoor hacky sack. Shout-out to the JobBoard doctor who was back in the Tweet storm. Joel: The doctor. Chad: Be there, doctor. Hung Lee and Adam Gordon for having us up, a really bat clean-up, last week in the Recruiting Brainfood show. That was interesting. Joel: They said, "Okay, we'll put these guys at the end of the show because most people will have left by then." But the audience stayed pretty loyal, I was pretty impressed. Chad: I was impressed. Joel: Solid line-up, Hung, you got to upgrade the equipment. But other than that, it was a solid experience. A good time. I just said, "Hung, you need to upgrade your equipment." Chad: That was another porn reference, by the way. Joel: No wonder he's single. Jesus. Chad: Shout-out to... are you good? Joel: Yeah, I'm done with shout-outs. Let's go to the travel schedule. Chad: Events. Okay, so, first and foremost, T-shirts. We haven't talked about these in awhile. Chad & Cheese limited-edition Cheese shirts, we're running low. But thanks to Emissary.AI, we still have some left over. So, any of the events that we're going to be at, look for Chad & Cheese. Ask for T-shirts, we probably have them. They're soft, they're warm, they're wonderful. Joel: They'll keep you warm in the fall season- Chad: Yes. That's exactly right. Joel: ... as we go into conference season. We're going to Sweden. Chad: We are going to Sweden. Joel: I want to hash out this food challenge that you've thrown down to me. Chad: You are the food guy, I'm the beer guy. You're the food guy. What? Joel: This is the nastiest food challenge- Chad: I don't even know how to say it. Joel: Yeah. We don't know how to say it. It basically looks like a can of fish, left over from Word War I- Chad: Stringy, canned fish. Joel: ... that's been fermenting for 50 years. Chad: Yeah, I think there's something nuclear about it, as well. Joel: That has just enough salt that it doesn't go bad, but it's just on the cusp of being rotten fish. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That they want me to eat. And I'm not sure why I got picked for this challenge. As far as I'm concerned, there's not enough vodka in Scandinavia, for me to even think about doing this. So, yeah. We're going to Sweden, but don't expect me to eat rotten fish, thank you very much. Chad: I believe it will happen, just so you know. Yeah, we're going to be kicking out the Sweden- Joel: #ChadCheese if I should eat the rotten fish. Chad: Really excited that we're going to see, obviously, the robot. How can you not be excited to see the fucking robot, for God sakes? But we're going to see TNG Staffing, AIDA Digital. I'm watching these- Joel: I'm bring a wig for the robot. I'm thinking a different look is needed for the robot. Chad: No. First and foremost, you're already creepy enough around the robot, as it is. Saying you're bringing a wig for the robot- Joel: I'm thinking like a Jackie-Brown-inspired wig, for Tengai, would be good. Chad: Oh, so creepy. So creepy. Moving on... Joel: How do you say creepy, in Swedish? I'm going to learn. Chad: ... Recruiter Nation Live. Joel: RNL. Chad: San Francisco- Joel: The Bay. Chad: ... September 9th through the 11th. If you are in the San Francisco, or around the San Francisco area, you need to be there. Here's the reason why, we have a $200 discount. Go to Recruiter Nation Live, sign up- Joel: Which I think is only good through the end of August, so get on that people. Chad: Yeah. So, you better get on it now. ChadCheese@RNL- Joel: That's the at sign. Chad: ... That's the at sign, yes. Joel: Not the A and T word. Chad: ChadCheese@RNL. SO, that's the Recruiter Nation Live, we will be there. Who knows what we'll be doing, nobody knows. Joel: We're going to interview Aman, the newly-minted CEO of Jobvite, for sure. Chad: I think Aman will probably have as many interviews with us as Tim Sackett has. Joel: Let's bring some rotten fish from Sweden, see if Aman will eat that. Chad: Oh, he'll eat that shit. Joel: He will? Chad: He'll eat that. He will show you. Joel: Hoosiers eat anything. Chad: Aman will not step back from a challenge, that's what I know. Last but not least, TAtech North America in Austin, Texas. September 24th through the 26th. Joel: Oh, yeah. Chad: Death Match, kids. Joel: Death Match time. Chad: Death Match. Sponsored by our friends- Joel: Four companies enter, one company leaves. Chad: ... at Alexander Mann Solutions with contestants... Can you name them off? Joel: Pez.ai, not the candy. Chad: Pez.ai, yeah, Pez. Yeah. Joel: Asses first... Chad: Assess First, yes. Joel: ... SeekOut- Chad: SeekOut. Joel: ... and Job.com. Chad: Whoo man. Joel: Yeah, you like that? Chad: You're a block-chain master, that's awesome. Joel: Yeah. I need more beer, apparently. Chad: Yeah, apparently. We need to give you some beer. Joel: Another drink. Chad: So, that's it, Those are the next three events we're going to be at. If you want to see what other events, because I think we have seven or so, go to ChadCheese.com, upper right-hand corner, Events, click it. Find us, come get your T-shirt, buy us a beer. That's what we want. Thanks. Joel: Kiss Chad's forehead, he loves it. Let's get to the news. Chad: News. StepStone. Joel: Double-standard at StepStone. So, you have an inside informant or two, over there, telling you about the double-standard at StepStone. What's going on? Chad: We certainly do, we certainly do. So, it's interesting because last week, we actually talked about how StepStone and 23 other job sites that are not under the StepStone umbrella- Joel: 23, yeah. Chad: Yeah. So, StepStone has like 30 job sites under their umbrella. There're another 23 that were, pretty much, throwing the anti-trust word at Google in the EU, which is always a bad thing. Google got nailed for anti-trust with shopping. Joel: Yup. Chad: But they fixed their shit. Unfortunately, here's the thing. StepStone, even though they're throwing this anti-trust bullshit lawsuit out, one of our listeners actually sent this message. Joel: Smart listeners, we have. Chad: "Hey Chad..." Well, we asked. We said, "Hey, we can't see the German or the EU Google for Jobs. Send us screenshots." Joel: Yeah. Chad: We got a deluge of screenshots. Joel: [foreign language 00:13:42] Chad: Here's one of them. "Hey Chad, just listened to your most-recent podcast episode. I know people who work for StepStone and they have an entire team focused on indexing all their jobs on Google for Jobs." So, what they're trying to do is they're trying to propagate StepStone. Joel: Yup. Chad: Trying to propagate all of their jobs throughout their 30 different- Joel: Job sites. Chad: ... job sites. All their real estate, right? To be able to leverage Google for Jobs, in the same- Joel: While suing them. Chad: Yes. While suing them, that's the key. Joel: I believe that's called "talking out of both sides of your mouth", in America. Chad: I believe that's called "talking out of your ass". Joel: Yeah, that could be it, actually. Chad: I think that's what it is, yes. Talking out of your ass. Joel: Well, at least they're covering their bets. Chad: Yes. Joel: You know? They're betting on red, that Google will win and then, whatever. Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative), yup. Joel: But they're also betting on black that, "Hey, we'll get some dollars out of Big G." Chad: From another listener, we received an email. "So, here's StepStone's UK brand, at Totaljobs.com. Not only- Joel: A large site. Chad: Yes. "... not only sponsoring search terms on the search-engine results, mind you, but also marketing their jobs, or marking their jobs up for index into Google for Jobs." Then, again, sent a screenshot. So, StepStone, I know you're listening, quit talking out of your ass. Joel: Are we requesting StepStone, step up, if you will, and pull their jobs like Indeed has done? Chad: Yeah. If you're going to be a bitch, and whine about this stuff, you're going to bitch and you're going to whine, then yeah. Joel: Take a stand. Chad: You're doing the exact, right thing. You're whining, and then you're talking out of your ass. But, if you're going to puff up your chest and you're going to take Google to fucking court on anti-trust, then why don't you go ahead and do the right thing? Pull your shit off of Google for Jobs. Joel: Yeah. We give Indeed a lot of shit, but at least they have the cojones to say, "We're pulling it." Chad: Yeah. Yeah, they- Joel: At least in America. Chad: ... they think a lot of themselves. SO, they do that kind of stuff. Joel: All right, so StepStone, what are you going to do? Nothing. They'll probably keep doing the same thing, lose in court. But they'll still get traffic from Google. In the meantime, Indeed is getting into the career fair business. Chad: Ooh. Why? Joel: Speaking of the Big I, out of Austin, Texas. Chad: Why? Joel: Well, I would clearly say- Chad: Yeah. Joel: They would probably tell you that, "Well, it's an opportunity we can't pass up." I would say, "Hey, it's another chip to this whole Google for Jobs thing is kicking our butt. We might want to place our bets in other areas." One of those being career fairs, knowing that there's no way in Hell that Google's ever going to put on career fairs. Joel: So, essentially, Indeed has launched this product targeted toward high-frequency hiring. We're talking truck drivers, we're talking servers, and hourly workers, et cetera. The idea is that, when you post these jobs online, everybody applies, there's no pre-screening or no friction between applying and actually talking to the company. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So, the idea is like, "Hey, if you had an actual event that someone has to get in their car, or get in an Uber, or get on their Bird Scooter to have to come down and interview, you're going to automatically pre-screen people who aren't really serious about the job." Then you can have the event. Indeed handles the advertising of it, the management of it, the candidate flow, et cetera. So, yeah. I guess it's a nice, potentially revenue-flow. I thought job... I mean, I thought job fairs had kind of died out in the '90s. Chad: So, is this a real, physical job fair? Or is it an online job fair? Joel: No, it's a real, brick-and-mortar job fair. Chad: It's a real- Joel: Yeah. Chad: They're setting up... Okay, so here's the thing. It's really hard to scale a lot of that shit. I mean, especially in this kind of economy, when we do have a low employment-rate. I now people are still looking for jobs, but from my standpoint, this is not the time to start up one of these job fair endeavors. This doesn't make any sense. Joel: Well look, if you're Indeed's leadership, you're saying, "Okay, this whole pay-per-click for job postings thing might not last forever. It probably won't. So, where are we going to place bets, or where are we going to diversify our income?" Chad: Yeah. Joel: We've already seen them with staffing, right? That's an obviously, something that Google's not going to get into. They're not going to get into job fairs. Chad: No. Joel: They're not going do this- Chad: It's too hard, there's too much to it. Joel: ... job tracker, whatever it is, where you go take pictures for help-wanted signs around the world. So, they're doing things that, I think, they know Google isn't going to touch and seeing if they can make a dent into it. They've tried other businesses that have failed and they've closed them, to their credit. This job fair thing, to me, is sort of the next idea. I'm sure they've had clients says, "Hey, you guys should do job fairs." And they said, "Yeah, let's try job fairs. We already have 10 clients that'll do it tomorrow." Chad: Yeah. Joel: So, it seems a little haphazard, but- Chad: 10 clients won't pay for a job fair, just so we're clear, first and foremost. Joel: I tried really hard, to think about job fairs and the last job fair I actually remember. Chad: Yeah, uh-huh (affirmative). Joel: Whether it just be in regular advertising around my local market or online, or on Facebook, or anywhere. They seem to be extinct. Chad: When I was the Chief Experience Officer over RecruitMilitary, one of the things that they did, that I didn't totally agree with, but they did, good for them, is they scaled up their job fair. They have a very niche market that they're going after, right? Now, that was very hard for them. They did a very good job, they really did. But, at the end of the day, Indeed's not going to build a business off of that. Joel: No, no. It's a way to get money out of clients that are already paying them for clicks and job postings and whatever else. Chad: It reminds me of Monster Blue Collar, remember Monster Blue Collar? Joel: Yeah, yeah totally. Chad: Then they had a whole segment. It was like, "Oh, you guys are the blue collar sales people." That shit died. And it's not only going to die, but in a market like this, right now, it's going to be flushed down the toilet, quick. So, I think Indeed buying SIFT, I'm going to say that there're probably many different teams that they have working on these things. Joel: Yeah. Chad: But I think the market place piece is where they win, in the skilled market, in skilled-trades market. Joel: Yeah. Chad: It's not the job fairs. So, go after it, Indeed. We're going to make fun of you, go after it. But I really think SIFT if your answer. Joel: Yeah. This also is another reason for Indeed to have face-to-face relationships with clients. I mean, since their inception, they've been a very hands-off, face-to-face organization, right? Everything has been over the phone or online, post jobs, put in your credit card. Chad: Well, scalable. Joel: Totally scalable. Chad: It's scalable. Yes. Joel: It totally makes sense, but now- Chad: That's how you make money. Joel: But now they're getting into more like, the staffing business, and this business, and face-to-face stuff, and let's build relationships. Chad: Why do you think Google doesn't do it? Joel: Again, that's a thing that Google probably isn't getting into. Chad: No. Joel: They're not going to get into the consulting- Chad: Why won't they? Joel: Because it's bad business and it's not their core competency. Chad: Ta-da. Joel: Ding, ding, ding, ding. Hey man, when the asteroid hits, you got to survive any way you can. Chad: Yeah. Well, the way that Indeed survived when the last asteroid hit was, they focused on their core. They knew what they were good at and they knew what they were bad at. They weren't fucking with anything they were bad at. Right now, the only thing I'm seeing with Indeed is that- Joel: Panic? Chad: ... they do something very well, but they're trying everything. Good for them, but a lot of that, there're going to be a lot of heads that roll, in these different areas. That's all there is to it. Joel: Sure, sure. I mean, we talked about the staffing business, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: They had to roll those people into other jobs. Chad: That's hard. Hard. Joel: Or, the agency business, sorry. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah, you know, it was easy to be Google for Jobs in 2008. When Google is Google for Jobs now, it's a little bit harder to be Google for Jobs. Chad: It is. Well, and that's one of those things, much like Monster and CareerBuilder should have seen it coming with Indeed. And I think Indeed sees this coming, they just don't know what the fuck to do. Because they're trying everything. Joel: I don't blame them. Chad: Dude. Joel: This is a hard nut to crack. Chad: They should own the Market Place. Joel: I'm not sure job fairs is the answer, but- Chad: No. Joel: Staffing, I like a lot better. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Indeed, we talked about Google, we want to talk about Apple and IBM, and some major organizations that are doing things different, after the break. Canvas: Canvas is the worlds first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text. And so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas bot is at your side, adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine-learning technology and has powerful integrations, that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix, by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser-focused on recruiter success. Canvas: Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: Wow, that was a great break. Joel: That's an awesome ad. I love that ad. Chad: We found, now this article is from 2018, one of the reasons why I shared it was we see more and more companies starting to ditch college degrees. Now, in this article, and I think it's incredibly important, because when we take a look at skills gaps and we start taking a look at "hard to fill jobs", we're putting way too many obstacles in our own way. This article pretty much says Google, Apple, and IBM are taking some of those big obstacles out of their way. Joel: This is an article by CNBC. They focus on 14 companies that have historically required a college degree, to get in. When I entered the work force, 800 years ago, if you didn't have a college degree, don't even bother sending the letter [crosstalk 00:24:34] and the cover letter... Yeah, there were certain positions where you could get away with it. But for the most part, that was the first pre-screening tool that companies had, was, "No degree, [foreign language 00:24:44]. Take your business elsewhere." Joel: But I think, supply and demand, I think online learning, I think the gig economy, people are learning these skills without actually getting a degree in college. I think companies who need this talent, they need people that can be engineers and managers and whatnot, without the benefit of a college degree. The fact that Google is number one on this list, and you can work at Google without a degree, is pretty impactful, in my opinion. Apple is on this list, IBM is on this list. Some weird companies on the list, like Costco and Hilton. I'm assuming those are the management-level headquarter-type stuff. Chad: Well, if they're getting rid of them altogether. Joel: Starbucks, for sure, should be on the list. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But if you're working in Seattle, I guess maybe it should be. But yeah, Bank of America on the list. So, the world is coming to a point where college educations are way expensive. Experience counts for more than a piece of paper, in many case. If you can do the job, you should get the job. Chad: There was one thing that, you were just talking about all these different terms that people should, obviously, think about. One thing that we don't think about is Moore's law. Technology's moving way faster than our education system. So, whether you have a degree or not, in most cases, you come out of the other side with that degree, you're still not going to be prepared for what the company needs. Right? Joel: Yup. Yeah. Chad: Everything's moving so fast, not to mention, you're coming out with $100,000 in debt, or whatever it might be. I think Lazlo Bach wrote a book where they were actually talking about, at Google, being able to move away and move in this direction, years ago. They were on their way to doing it, because they actually saw that graduates from Harvard were actually doing worse that graduates from some community colleges, that they were pulling in. So, it didn't matter, these big, Ivy League schools, it didn't fucking matter to them. Google was like, "Guess what? They're not weighted higher now. Were now going to start looking at people on even keel." Then, in some cases, start to lose those degrees because it wasn't necessary, because how fast our business moves. Joel: Yeah. I'm many ways, I think universities have to look at this stuff and think, "What are we doing wrong, that these big companies feel like they can hire people that don't have a college degree?" I think your point of that, they're not moving at a pace fast enough to deliver candidates and talent that can keep up with the current technologies and development, and whatever else. Joel: So colleges, I think, have to take a look at this phenomenon and say, "How do we do better, to make sure that our people graduate and are prepared for the real world?" If you will. Chad: Oh, yeah. Well so, back to Harvard. [crosstalk 00:27:35] Harvard, there's no reason why Harvard or Stamford or any of the big schools, the big-name schools, shouldn't. Because, I think Harvard has over 30 billion, B- B- billion in endowments, right? They should be moving as fast, if not faster than Corporate America. They should be partnering with Corporate America. So this, for us to be falling back and for Google to be pointing out big names like this and saying, "They're actually at, probably, the same level as some of the community colleges," that's on the administration of Harvard. That's fucking bullshit. They have more money in their endowment than most third world fucking countries, dude. We should have this fixed. The problem is, we have rich dudes sitting around, counting their fucking money. Joel: And dudettes. Chad: Eh, in most cases, it's dudes. But, yeah. I mean, that's the problem. We really need to focus on where the problem is. Joel: Well look, colleges are fat and happy. Chad: They are, that's what I'm saying. Joel: College has never been more expensive. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They're fat and happy. Chad: Most of them, yeah. Most of them. Joel: There's no incentive. As long as students pay money the go to college, to get degrees, and colleges get fatter and fatter, there's no incentive for them to churn out people that can do jobs that require different skills. Until people stop... Well, yeah. We'll see what happens, we'll see about that. Chad: Then they go to the technologies or they go to the certifications, or what have you. But when I saw most of them, most of the big colleges , with the big names, they should be the answer, they shouldn't be the problem. That's what we're seeing. Obviously, that's what we're seeing because Google, Apple, and IBM are saying, "Yeah, we don't need college degrees." Joel: Yeah, I'm mean, look. A Harvard degree, a Stanford degree, a Northwestern degree- Chad: Dude. Joel: ... that used to be a free ticket into- Chad: Anywhere. Joel: ... boats and hoes. Chad: Anywhere. Joel: Now, for many it still is, but now it's more of an economy of meritocracy, and can you do the job or not? I think a lot of companies, through just necessity, are hiring people with good attitudes, the ability to learn, and they're teaching them on the job. That had greater benefit now than it ever has before. I think the gig economy and sites like Upwork and Fiverr also make it tougher, because you can pick people from around the globe, that can do these job. You don't have to go to Ivy League environments or Chicago Rice University, wherever it is. You can go the internet and find these people, and that has sort of leveled a lot of the playing field. Chad: We have an interview with the CEO of HackerRank, that's going to be coming out, I promise. Joel: Funny guy. Chad: He actually said that he doesn't believe that we have a talent shortage, and that's the reason. Is because we are a global economy and we can do those types of things. With companies like HackerRank being able to leverage all those individuals, throughout the world. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Doing projects, instead of actually doing full-time jobs. Joel: Yeah. If you're a company, would you rather hire someone with a degree from, say, Purdue, which is historically, a sure bet, or would you rather hire someone in HackerRank that scores a perfect score on the technologies for what you need at your company? Chad: Yeah. Joel: That's a tougher question for companies to answer. Chad: 50 reviews that say this dude is kick-ass and whatnot, or what have you. Joel: Yeah. Great reviews, they pass the test, all the pre-screening stuff. Chad: Yup. Joel: They can do the job. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It used to be, "Oh, you've a Purdue degree? You can probably do the job." Now you know, they can do the job because of these tools of sites like HackerRank. Chad: Right, right. One of the reasons why I believe market places is where we're moving. So, job sites, the Indeed's of the world. If they don't move toward a market place, I think they're totally wrong. I think the Monster's of the world... I think the only saving grace they have is to move to a market place. Joel: Yeah, look. Three doors down from where we are right now, there's a company called Code Ninjas. They take kids from ages eight or seven, to fourteen and teach them to code. So, are you telling me I can take a nine-year-old kid, put him in there, learn how to code, start building apps as a teen, start doing technologies as a teen, start doing work on Upwork as a teenage, and learn more than what, probably, a college-degreed student knows by the time they graduate after four years of college? That's the world we're living in. Joel: It's not, "Hey they do to public school till they're 12th grade, they don't do any coding but maybe some basic stuff. Then they finally learn coding or engineering or whatever, when they go to college." They can start learning that stuff at seven years old, and that's the world that we live in. Companies are finally taking notice, like, "Hell, I'm going to hire the kid that's bee coding since they were seven, as opposed to the one that's been 19." Chad: Companies are. Now we just need universities to get off their fat and happy asses, and start doing things right. That's the biggest issue, that we don't have companies forging partnerships with universities, or universities with companies, to be able to pipeline candidates directly to on contract. Directly into their organization, where it's like, "Hey look, you come in and you develop or you become on sales," or whatever it is. "Stay with us for three years and we will pay off your college debt." That's the shit that needs to happen. Joel: Sure. Companies want results and having a degree doesn't equal results. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Let's talk about IAC, one of the huge- Chad: You know me. Joel: A huge internet company. You'll know many of their companies in the portfolio. Chad: Tinder. Joel: Vimeo. Yeah, they're definitely dating. Chad: Match.com. Joel: So Tinder, Match, Plenty of Fish. Yeah, I'm looking at the list now. Chad: Do they really have Plenty of Fish? Joel: It's, pretty much, every... Angie's List, Ask for those old-timers who remember Ask. Chad: Oh, Ask. Yeah. Joel: Ask.com, Home Advisor. Chad: Jeeves, Ask Jeeves. Joel: Ask Jeeves, yeah. Our Time, for the older dating set. Chad: Jesus Christ. Joel: Daily Beasts Publishing. There aren't very many, if at all, employment sites that these guys have targeted. Announced this week, they bought NurseFly- Chad: Yes. Joel: ... for a whisper number of $15 million. NurseFly... Chad: They've been around since 2017, dude. They're a- Joel: Yeah, not very long. This is on the heels of, what was the healthcare platform that we talked about last week? I'm scrolling through the news here. Chad: Nomad. Joel: Yeah, Health Nomad, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: So, I don't know. What do you make of IAC historically internet company, staying away from job sites, now actually buying NurseFly as part of their repertoire? Chad: Yeah, I seem to remember they might have had some workings with some job sites, back in the day. Like in the early 2000's. Joel: Yeah, if there's an internet site, they may have bought it or acquired it at some point. Chad: But overall, I think this makes a hell of a lot of sense. IAC owns a shit-ton of companies and they want to be able to move in this direction. Now, Match.com and Tinder, dating apps, matching apps. Nursing, or NurseFly, now is focused on matching travel nurses and the market's about a $17 billion market. It's a big market. So, nursing is obviously... It's hard right now, to be able to fill, especially travel nursing jobs. If they can get ahold of this and not sit on it too long, they might be able to build a market place for traveling nurses. Maybe even blow it up into something bigger. Joel: If you were a big investor, we know you've got the big bank account. Chad: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Joel: Would you rather invest in a site for engineers and technology, or healthcare? And why? Chad: I'd say healthcare. A couple of reasons. First and foremost, the Boomers, right? Not to mention, there's so many that are actually going into the healthcare system right now, and that is the reason why we need so many nurses, right? We need so many healthcare professionals. So, if you take a look at the actual trends, it just makes sense. Healthcare is big and it's going to grow and it's really bloated. But, we need people to be able to fill those gaps. So, I think it makes sense. I don't know if a two-year-old company makes sense, but I would look at more of a practice link, with something like this, to try to blow it up into a much larger market place. Joel: So, co-founder and CEO of NurseFly, Parth Bhakta, hopefully I'm saying that correctly, said, "We built NurseFly to transform and modernize how travel healthcare professionals connect with work. In doing so, hope to alleviate a nation-wide labor shortage in the Healthcare Industry. Our vision is to bring transparency to the travel nursing markets, so we can connect more qualified professionals, to more work opportunities." Blah, blah, blah. "We are thrilled to join AIC," blah, blah, blah. Technology, demand, those are all things he touched on and he understands that, as well. Chad: Yup, yup. Well, what I think needs to happen here is, this is different than the Google, the Apple, and the IBM jobs where you can just, pretty much, find somebody anywhere in the world to work a project, if they're qualified. This is entirely different. You need somebody that is actually there, on premises, to be able to do the work. The big key here isn't really, I don't think, technology. It's back to what we talked about with universities and schools, who certify nurses, to be able to pipeline them into these types of jobs. Joel: Do you remember the Jetsons? Chad: Yeah. (singing) Joel: Do you remember the maid from the Jetsons? Chad: Oh, yeah yeah. Joel: Did she have a name? The robot? Chad: She did. I can't remember it though. I can see her. Joel: I don't remember it. They need nurses like that. They need nurse robots with aprons, that go in and take your blood and temperature, and everything else. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That's what healthcare needs, in my opinion. So, go build that and you've got a multi-billion dollar business. Chad: Ell, you get a tin guy first. You start with the tin guy. Joel: Put some wheels and an apron on tin guy, and give him a stethoscope and a needle, and you got something. Chad: So... Joel: Whoo. We went off on a tangent on that one. Chad: We did. I think I'm going to get another beer here. Joel: All right. Yeah, let's get another beer and let's hear another word from a sponsor. When we come back, we'll talk about programmatic advertising. Chad: And bots. JobAdX: Nope, nah, not for me. All these jobs look the same. Ugh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking, as they scroll past your jobs. Just half-heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job-seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? JobAdX: Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job-seekers will stumble upon your employment-branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop off. JobAdX: You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment-branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel, begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites, to proactively compel top talent, to join your team. Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@jobadx.com. Attract, engage, employ, with JobAdX. Joel: This beer's tasting too good, by the way. This is bad. Chad: Weizengoot. I love a good Hefeweizen. This next one- Joel: Say Recruitology really fast, eight times, From the beer that we've had. Chad: Yeah. I can't. Joel: Recruitology, Recruitology, Recruitology. Chad: This one just seems, almost, like it's reaching, to me. I could be wrong. Joel: Who's reaching? We, as a show or... Chad: Recruitology is reaching. Joel: Okay. Chad: There's like, "Oh, we partnered with this media company," and it's like, "Well all these other programmatic companies are getting acquired. What do we do to get our name our there, so hopefully somebody recognizes us and they buy us?" It seems kind of weak, to me. Joel: Programmatic is a race to the... Chad: It is. Joel: It's like, "How can we arm up, as quickly as possible." We saw four companies sell within a 45-day period, I think. Chad: Yeah, close. Joel: You can listen to past shows, if you want to get the news on all that stuff. But to me, you've got Recruitology, Pando, JobAdX, you've got a few players left [crosstalk 00:40:50] to sort of build that network. The they know they're going to sell at some point. I think it's a matter of how much they can go for, because AppCast has set the market, relatively low, by the opinion of many people that we know. But, Foreman's in Fiji right now, probably enjoying his riches. Joel: So, you have Recruitology, from the people that brought up After College. Apparently, that business is a little bit challenged. SO now, they're building up programmatic ad solution and they're building up as many news paper, media sites as possible. Yeah, they've partnered with Berkshire Hathaway, a well-known name if you're buying real estate or investing in stocks. They're, basically, a group of Mid West-ish news papers and TV stations, et cetera. So, the markets they serve, we're looking at Alabama, Iowa, Nebraska, New Jersey, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas, and Virginia. So, you've got some solid spots there, amongst the Alabama's and the Nebraska's. But yeah, it's a race. Joel: All these companies, these news paper companies are figuring out, just putting jobs on our site and having people self-serve. Isn't necessarily answering or partnering with these guys. It's more profitable and easier and we don't need sales people. We don't need that infrastructure to handle that, this is a better deal. So, I'm sure they're all talking to Pando and Recruitology, and whoever else. Whoever gives them the best deal is who they're going with. So, Recruitology is partnering with these companies, they must have a decent story to tell. I think Pando does, also. Chad: All of the programmatic CEOs I've talked to, after all these sell-offs, have said, "We're solid, we're not selling. Yet." Joel: Yeah, yeah. Chad: Yes. Joel: Yeah. They're all kind of mad at the price tag that AppCast put on their product. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: They're going to wait it out. From what we've heard, they're going to wait it out until the price gets back up, demand goes higher. Chad: Right. Joel: Look, there're more buyers in the programmatic space than there are sellers. Chad: Oh, shit yeah. Yeah. Joel: So, they can afford to wait a little bit, let the price go up, hope the economy and the Trump White House doesn't screw things up. It's be crazy if one of these guys cashed out at a higher price tag than AppCast, two, three, four, five years from now. But it could happen. Chad: It could happen. Joel: I'll go on record and say, it will happen. Pando and/or Recruitology will sell for more than AppCast. Chad: Or Jovio. Joel: Or Jovio. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Or JobAdX... Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... will sell for more than AppCast, at some point. There you go. That's a precursor to my 2020 predictions, for our show in January. Chad: Well, I'm going to go ahead and put a prediction out there and say that Amazon will use bots- Joel: Is going to buy Slacks. Chad: ... will use bots. Joel: Damn it. You're such a tease. Chad: Will use bots... Joel: Oh my God. Chad: ... in the Twitter-verse and in social. Joel: Amazon, why? Chad: So, this is interesting. Joel: It's stupid. Chad: There's a new rabbit hole on Twitter, that many people have fallen down because of all of these Amazon Ambassadors that are out there. They have these pictures- Joel: Ambassadors. Chad: ... that looks like real people, but it says their name and then "Amazon Ambassador." It just seems like total- Joel: This story won't go away. We covered this six months ago. Chad: ... total bullshit. I know. But Amazon, they won't quit. Here's a great example. There was one dude that says, on Twitter, "What are your prime directives?" Which is Star Trek subject matter, right? Joel: Yup. Chad: An Amazon bot, which looks like Jordan, actually says, "Amazon Prime is all about quick and reliable shipping." It's like, dude, they're keying off of words and then, they're trying to get into the conversation. Joel: It reads like a late-night comedy. The best comic writers in the world couldn't come up with some of this ridiculousness. Like all the user names have Amazon in them. Chad: Yes. Joel: They all say Amazon Ambassador, they all read like a robot wrote this stuff. Like, "As a worker in US, I do not want a union. Why should I pay dues to a union, to get exactly what I'm already getting? My working conditions are good and I receive great benefits. Would I like more money? Absolutely. I don't think anyone would say 'no more money'." I can keep going of you like. "Everything is fine. I don't think there is anything wrong with the money I make or the way I am treated at work." Real people don't talk like that. Chad: "I suffer from depression too. At one point, I wanted to quit Amazon. But I realized, it was my fault for the problems I was dealing with, and not Amazon's." Joel: Yeah. Chad: People don't fucking do... "I'm allowed to talk to people, but sometimes, I don't want to." I mean, it's... Joel: The one that's like, "I just took a picture of the leadership board," or something, "it's so inspirational." So it's an actually picture of a keyword cloud of, yeah, leadership tips at Walmart, or at Amazon, sorry. Chad: Oh, yeah. It was like, "When I walk in every day, I see this." Joel: Yes. "I'm so inspired to stock boxes." Chad: Yeah. You know how you can go to Google and do an image search? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, it's really simple. You can go to Google, you can do an image search with some of the headshots that are used on Twitter, and see if anybody else is using them. There are like 55,000 of this. It's like a stock photo from Getty Images, or- Joel: Oh, no. Chad: Yeah. Dude, it's fucking ridiculous. Joel: Some bot in Thailand is churning out these Twitter accounts. Maybe this is a good time to say good-bye for the week and sample some of this whiskey that we got from Bayard Advertising. Chad: Agreed. Thanks, Bayard. Thanks, Daniel O'Neill. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to... what's it called? A podcast. The Chad, The Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know. Yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And, not one word about cheese, not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any-hoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And, while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out. #StepStone #Google #Indeed #JobFairs #Apple #IBM #College #IAC #Nursefly #Marketplace #Recruitology #Amazon #Twitter

There's already too many staffing solutions in the UK, right? Nay! says this month's Firing Squad guest, SBOJ (it's jobs backwards, get it?). Let's just see how right this start-up really is on this Talroo exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies find talent in the largest minority community in the world – people with disabilities. Chad: Talroo is focused on predicting, optimizing, and delivering talent directly to your email or ATS. Joel: So it's totally data-driven talent attraction, which means the Talroo platform enables recruiters to reach the right talent at the right time, and at the right price. Chad: Guess what the best part is? Joel: Let me take a shot here. You only pay for the candidates Talroo delivers. Chad: Holy shit. Okay, so you've heard this before. If you're out there listening in podcast land and you are attracting the wrong candidates, and we know you are, or you feel like you're in a recruiting hamster wheel and there's just nowhere to go, you can go to talroo.com/attract. Again, that's talroo.com/attract, and learn how Talroo can get you better candidates for less cash. Joel: Or, just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Talroo logo. I'm all about the simple. Chad: You are a simple man. Announcer: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids. The Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Aw, yeah. Chad: Here we are. Joel: Let's do another Firing Squad because our fans love it. All right, guys. Today we have, geez, I'm going to say this wrong. SBOJ, which is- Chad: Spooge. Joel: Yeah, Spooge is what we're calling it. But it's SBOJ.com. We have Nick Gray, CEO and Londoner. Nick, welcome to the Firing Squad. Nick: Hey, and thank you very much for having me. It's an honor. Joel: Hope you've got your bulletproof vest on today. Nick: Yes. Well, there's plenty around in London, so your president tells us. Joel: Yeah. Hey, with your prime minister, I'm not sure you can talk. Nick: No, exactly. You're not wrong. He's the Britain Trump, isn't he? Joel: Yes, yes. Well, we know that you know the rules of the firing squad, but some of our listeners don't. So Chad, why don't you run through the dilly dilly? Chad: All right. All right, Nick, you will have two minutes to pitch SBOJ, Spooge. At the end of two minutes, you're going to hear the bell. Then Joel and I are going to hit you with rapid fire Q&A. If your answers start rambling, then Joel's gonna hit you with the crickets, and that's your signal to move along and tighten up your game. At the end of Q&A, we're going to grade you with either big applause. You should at this point, get your bank account ready because you knocked it out of the fucking park. A golf clap, you're getting there, but you can do better. Joel: Got some work to do. Chad: Yeah, you have lots of work to do. Or, the firing squad. Hit the bricks, close up shop, pull out the drawing board because that shit sucks, but that's the firing squad. Do you have any questions? Nick: No, that all sounds very clear. Hopefully I don't get the last one. Chad: Excellent. Okay, Joel, let's do this. Joel: Ready, Nick? Nick: Yes, go for it. Joel: Two minutes starting. Nick: SPOJ.com is a new platform which disrupts the employer-recruiter relationship. Taking the example of real estate, 15 years ago when you were looking for a property you'd visit the local estate agents, who would then send you houses in your budget they thought that you'd like. Now you use an online platform, such as Zoopla in the UK or Zillow in the U.S., and you search for the house you'd like, and are then put in touch with the agent that represents it. Nick: Essentially, staffing firms still work in the same way that realtors used to. Employers recruit in three ways, one by advertising roles and getting direct hires; two, by using an in-house team to scrape LinkedIn, their network, and to leverage referrals to find direct hires; and three, by using recruiters or staffing companies. Nick: SBOJ just focuses on number three. It's a tool for in-house teams to use alongside their ATS which aggregates and manages all of their applications from recruiters. There are lots of staffing firms, so employers manage noise from recruiters by having a PSL, a list of recruiters they can deal with. I always thought this was kind of stupid because, one, the perfect candidate might be using a recruiter they don't deal with, and two, all of the recruiters who are not on the PSL constantly call up the employer to try and get on it. Nick: SBOJ screens existing relationships, manages duplication, and reduces conflict with recruiters, plus allows an employer to use any recruiter on guaranteed terms. No humans are involved; everything is processed by algorithms. SBOJ just manages the introduction. Recruiters still do the same stuff they do now, and employers can still protect their employer brand in the same way. The difference is just that the starting point for the relationship is our platform. Nick: For employers, SBOJ immediately manages all noise from recruiters and in the longer term will allow them to search an aggregated database to recruiters candidates, like you now do on Zillow for houses, which isn't something that they've been able to do until now. SBOJ is completely free for employers to use, so it's been conceived as a bit of a no-brainer. There are also a lot of reasons why recruiters want to use it too. We just got a big investment from a former Dragons' Den investor, which is obviously a huge stamp of approval. To find out more, please visit SBOJ.com or email me, nick@sboj.com. Chad: Very good. Joel: Tight patch. Did you write that down? Nick: I've been doing it all morning. Joel: That's what I'm talking about. Nick: Thank you. I tried it with my girlfriend earlier, and I was sort of adlibbing it, and I'd got about a third of the way through it and she's like, "That's two minutes." Joel: Yeah, we are typically disappointed by CEO pitches, but that one was pretty damn good. Chad: Significant investment from Dragon's Lair star, is it Richard Farleigh? Nick: Yeah, Richard Farleigh. Dragons' Den is kind of the same as your Shark Tank. I think, well, we kind of invent ... Well, I think actually the Japanese invented it. Then we had Dragons' Den, and then you had Shark Tank like three or four years afterwards. Chad: Yeah, so were you on Dragons' Den? Nick: No. Chad: How'd you get his attention? Nick: No. So basically, we kind of knew a couple of sort of mutual people on LinkedIn and I sent him a few emails and he said, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it sounds kind of interesting," and then he didn't really come back to me at all. And he kept looking at my profile and I was like, "Well, you know, if you're going to look at my profile then you need to hear what I want to say." And so effectively I went along and met him and another guy. Nick: It took about six months of loads of meetings and so on and so forth because I think he's very careful with what he does, obviously, which is why I didn't get into the position he is. But he's backed a lot of companies. He tends to do larger investments with far more established companies. But he's a nice guy. We kind of get well, and I think he can see that he can make a bit of a difference with it and we can perhaps do something cool with it. Chad: Do you know if he's investing in this industry at all right now? Are you the only investment he has in this industry? Nick: I think I'm the only investment that he has specifically in recruitment. I don't know a sort of recruitment tech, but I don't really know. He's got his fingers in a lot of pies, put in that way. Funnily enough, actually, I think he was replaced on Dragons' Den by James Caan, who came up in one of your recent podcasts, I think, cause you were mentioning his name, saying, "Oh, Caan. Is that the actor or ..." Chad: Right. Joel: What was it about you guys that that kind of sold him? What was the appeal? Nick: Well, I think it's because it's a market that everybody knows and a lot of people have dealt with. I think a lot of his companies obviously deal with it from the other end of the stick, in the fact that they have a lot of recruiters that are chasing them around and not necessarily always giving them a great service. But often, they want to use recruiters cause they've got good people and they want to hire people. And, obviously, it was my natural brilliance and so on and so forth that pushed him in my direction. But it just kind of, you know, we got on well and it was a point where we needed some money because it's been a very difficult thing to develop and it's cost us a lot of money and time and so on and so forth. Chad: I got to get to the name. So I initially thought it was Spooge. Nick: SBOJ. Chad: It's SBOJ. Nick: Yeah, SBOJ. Chad: If you get the firing squad, you can always pivot to Spooge and make it a different content site. So how did you come up with the name? What's the story? Is it a pain in the ass on sales calls to say, "Hey, I'm Nick with SBOJ"? Nick: Not really. I don't think it's been much of an issue. I think having a short domain and obviously a .com is, because we've got plans to be able to just not do things outside the UK. So having that was ... And, obviously, it's jobs backwards. So it was kind of- Joel: Ahh. Nick: ... That was kind of the pull. Actually, one of my colleagues came up with it rather than me. But I tracked down the guy who owned it in the States and we paid him a bit of money for it, and it was literally about 10 years ago we bought it. Chad: So anybody with dyslexia would have known what the name was. I mean, that's pretty ... Because until you just said that, I was like, "Oh shit, you gotta be fucking kidding me." Nick: Yeah. Well it's jobs backwards. It's one of those things. And really, it's not something that you kind of ... It needs to be explained to you how it works and how we fit into the ecosystem. So when I go along to people and say, "Oh yeah, well it's called SBOJ cause it's jobs backwards, people are always like, "Ah, great. Okay, it makes sense now. Yep." Joel: That should be part of your logo, literally. It should be SBOJ, and then at the bottom, jobs backwards. Chad: There's no question. Nick: Yeah. It's jobs backwards. Otherwise, you'd just come up with a random name. Joel: Now we've fixed your company. We're good to go. Thanks. Chad: BountyJobs has worked this concept for about a decade, probably over a decade, and they're still not a big player. What makes you think SBOJ can break out and make it big? Nick: Well, I think there's some differences with BountyJobs. I'm not massively familiar with it, but a lot of the things that have, they kind of ... What SBOJ does is it aggregates the noise. So what we do is we look after all of an employer's hiring of recruiters, like kind of from the moment that they start using us. So we can guarantee that there'll be no conflict with people. And we use it from an employer's perspective. So the employer is kind of the dog that wags the tail, so to speak. And so effectively, we get a good company to use SBOJ, and effectively the recruiters want to work with that company anyway. So it's just a way of aggregating that data. Nick: Bounty is massive in the UK, and I'm sure there are ... Probably the closest thing to SBOJ is something like a recruitment marketplace, which there are quite a lot of those. Effectively, what happens with a recruitment marketplace is, one, there are a lot of humans involved in it. So effectively, a company publishes a vacancy on one of these marketplaces ... I think Bounty is much more like a marketplace ... And then companies tender for the role. Nick: Now, that kind of puts a lot of the recruitment companies off because, one, they haven't really got any more control over applications or ownership of candidates than they had in the first place because it's all managed by humans and it can still be kind of a black hole when they're putting applications into an ATS; and, two, a lot of the good recruiters just won't use it because there are costs involved in doing so and blah, blah blah. So it's kind of an evolution. And if we'd probably been sensible, we would have maybe created a recruitment marketplace and then created SBOJ. But it's like a recruitment marketplace on steroids, effectively, where everything is processed by algorithms rather than by people. Sorry. Joel: You said something while you were talking about the investment, something about like you guys needed the money or you were sort of in dire straits. Expand upon that, and how big is the team? What does it look like, how much money have you raised, how much money are you looking to raise? Talk about your financial health. Nick: Basically, we've done ... Effectively, most of it has been input from the founding people who came up with the idea. I've been in recruitment for a long time. I did quite well out of that and had some money that I always wanted to invest in building SBOJ. The problem has been the technical stuff has been by far the hardest thing to do because we've had four teams of developers, and only the fourth one has managed to actually do the stuff we can do. Joel: Are those contracts? Nick: Well, no. We've had all sorts of arrangements in terms of being able to give them some equity and la, la la. The developers tend to do the sort of easy bits, but then the hard algorithmic data that we need and that stuff is things that you have to pay 500 pounds a day for. And we've just never really been able to afford it. So to answer your actual specific question, we've spent a lot of money on it but now we've got a thing that actually works really well, in fact, in some ways better than we thought it was going to. Joel: Are you guys profitable? Nick: Is what, sorry? Joel: Are you profitable at this point? Nick: So at the moment, basically, we've been running a beta for about six months and that basically just, we kind of wash our face with that. But, effectively, because it's quite complex, we had to just kind of check to see if the beta actually worked properly before we're pushing out. But we just really, I've been marketing it more actively for like the last two weeks. So we're actually only sort of moving into the market now. Chad: Okay, Nick. Quicker answers. Nick: Sorry. Chad: Are the recruiters vetted? Nick: No. There is a tool on the system where companies, if there's a particular recruiter they hate, they cannot receive applications from them. Chad: Okay. Are the recruiters ranked? Nick: Well, that is a thing that we'd like to do in the future, but obviously we need more data to do that. That's really a data issue. Joel: Can employers rate them? The employers that work with them? Nick: Yeah. That is basically, when we've got a lot more people using the system, that's exactly what we want to do, is allow employers to rate the recruiters so they can see before they use people. But really kind of the point of SBOJ in some ways is that they go for the candidate because we want employers to be able to search a database of candidates because obviously I'd like them to have the candidate rather than the recruiter. Chad: Right. The website says, "Free for employers to use." So how do the recruiters get paid? Nick: Basically what happens, it's the same as a normal transaction. Say a recruiter is introduced through SBOJ. They make a fee. Say it's a 10,000 pound fee. It works with contract and perm, but on a perm example, the company then pays me the 10,000 pounds. I take 10% of that off, and then I pay the recruiter the 9,000 pounds. So they pay me 10% on success, which is kind of in line with a referral fee. Chad: Okay. On the site, though, it says, "Free for employers to use." That's got kind of a gray air. So how is SBOJ a 24/7 marketing tool? How do you help the market from a marketing standpoint? Nick: So, for example, if you're a recruiter who's kind of started up your own small company and you don't have access to a lot of people's PSLs, great contacts in some of these big companies, then assuming that that company's using SBOJ, then you can still use ... It's like a way that ... Recruiters add their candidates to SBOJ and then employers can search them. So effectively, it's like having a shop window for recruiters to be able to advertise their wares, so to speak. Joel: The website also says, "Access the candidates of every recruiter on the planet." How is that possible? Nick: Well that's probably a slightly bold claim, but- Chad: Come on, man. Nick: But obviously, if recruiters choose to use SBOJ, the point is that we focus on getting good employers onto SBOJ, and then effectively, if you want to deal with that employer, you go through SBOJ. We focus on securing the employer first, and then we manage their recruitment from there outwards. So the more people that use it, the better. And obviously, if you do banking recruitment and we sign up five big banks in London, then you're going to be using SBOJ. Joel: In terms of marketing, and you talked about outreach to recruiters, how are you marketing to, I guess, both recruiters and employers? What's sort of the marketing strategy that you guys are implementing right now? Nick: Really, as I said, we're kind of starting out a bit. So we're learning a lot of those things. Really what we're trying to do at the moment is secure some really good employers to use the system. After that, it's really been more of a case with our beta version that we were talking to the recruiters about the system so they weren't worried that their stuff was being stolen off them or lost or they were still going to get a fee, or et cetera, et cetera. Nick: So I think the whole thing in terms of marketing to recruiters is something that is an important part. But obviously I've got a background in recruitment and I know that they don't want to get ripped off. So SBOJ does actually for the first time stop that happening because recruiters can always upload things into people's portals, but they've got no idea what's really happening with that data. And ours is run by algorithms, not people. So we can't cheat the system. Chad: So recruiters add the necessary data, slash the candidates, and then the algo takes over. That's correct, right? Nick: Yeah. We match the candidates if they're matched, and then ultimately, obviously, we can't do it at the moment because we haven't got like a billion users, but ultimately the idea is that if a company wants to hire an engineer in Taiwan, that they can just search that database and find a candidate from a recruiter. So effectively, it just creates another stream that an in-house team can use. Chad: So humans are just adding candidates into the database. Why not just skip the humans/recruiters and buy into a big database of profiles? Nick: Well, because recruiters, it's one of those things, and I think recruiters do useful stuff. Other than making introductions, which is what I'm hoping SBOJ will take over and do, recruiters oil the wheels of a deal, do the negotiations, stuff like that. That's why recruiters exist. Recruitment's obviously a massive industry, and I don't think anybody's going to come up with a golden bullet that's going to kill that. All SBOJ is trying to do is make that more manageable and more palatable. Joel: So you also have the chicken and egg dilemma, right, Chad, where if you don't have candidates, employers aren't going to use it. If you don't have employers, recruiters aren't going to care. So how are you balancing that now? Chad: Right. Nick: I think ... You're right, obviously. It's a chicken and egg thing, but having candidates to search is a thing that we'd like in sort of six or 12 months. For example, now, just from our beta, for certain technical roles in London, employers could search them now. Because we create the link with an employer that manages their recruitment, we automatically get agents that use the system, which creates a database. So without us having to spend loads of money or buy a database or la, la, la, we're buying current data from recruiters that are currently recruiting. Chad: But it's like you're really using humans to seed the system that could be 100% automated, more like a marketplace. How long until you're there? SBOJ says it's simple, but wouldn't it even be more simple just to automate the points of, and reduce the human friction? Because if you have the data from the actual jobs, from corporate career sites or what have you, and/or the actual data from the candidates, why do you need any type of human interaction whatsoever? Allow the system to do what it's built to do. Nick: Well, I think there's two answers to that. One is that the data is added by recruiters. It's their data. So it's not up to me to steal that data from them in the future. If an employer wants to recruit somebody who a recruiter's added, they're going to pay a fee to do that. So that's their data. And, two, the human interaction element is why I think recruiters are good. Like I say, oiling the wheels of a deal and explaining the employer brand, all that sort of stuff, fine. And that's why recruiters exist. I don't think there's anyone who's going to come up with a silver bullet system where recruiters are just going to disappear off the face of the earth. In my opinion, they do good stuff, and SBOJ helps that. Joel: They do good stuff, and there's also a high level of competition, particularly in the UK, and sometimes I feel like I don't appreciate the impact and the importance of headhunters and staffing firms in the UK. Talk about the competition and the competitiveness. Because my guess is you're competing against a long line of well-established, well-known, highly-funded, or well-funded staffing firms there in the UK that makes your job that much more difficult to break through and cut through the clutter and be successful. So talk about the competition, what's your differentiator, and what's your plan on cutting through the clutter and getting noticed in a pretty competitive market? Nick: Well, really, it's just a case of doing what we do well. We've thought of doing some other things, but we've concentrated solely on this managing the data of recruiters because the noise from recruiters is a big problem, and companies find it very difficult to manage that noise in an effective way. You have recruiters constantly phone up their staff, and they don't go through the proper channels, and it can be difficult to manage that noise. So, really, our model is to seal the deal with key employers who want to manage it in a more efficient way. Because obviously the key thing for internal talent teams is that they're supposed to recruit people directly. They're not supposed to just sit there and take people off recruiters, are they? Chad: Right. Nick: And what SBOJ does is it puts that element of managing that section. It makes it a thousand times simpler. From the employer's perspective, it cost them nothing so why wouldn't they do it? So there's no more arguing over terms, there's no more duplication of things, "I interviewed this person six months ago," stuff like that. It just cuts out the difficulty. Chad: Aren't marketplaces like Uber Work, Upwork, Communo, Working Not Working, and Indeed, through their new acquisition of Syft, which was obviously there in the UK, won't it make it harder for recruiters to get placements since these apps are actually going through that algorithmic phase and really getting rid of the human friction? How are you going to combat those types of actual marketplaces with humans involved? Nick: Well I think that, I mean this is one of the prime reasons why I wanted to talk to you two about it because obviously, you've just come up with a load of things that I haven't got a massive knowledge of. You have encyclopedic knowledge of these things, but the fact remains that, for example, Indeed, what Indeed generally does is they'll try and attract people directly, so direct hires. So a talent team will use that to try and take people on directly. Nick: There's still all these recruitment companies around that are still trying to function and work with them. All SBOJ tries to do is to manage that sector. However things develop in the future in terms of being more accurate in terms of direct hiring, then fine. SBOJ is just focused on dealing with recruiters. Applications, recruiters, nothing else. Chad: Gotcha. Okay, so last question from me is, so you talk about the system manages duplication. How? What if a recruiter gets a candidate in the database first, but the profile is stale where another recruiter enters the same candidate data in after, but it's a more updated profile, it's a more fresh profile? Who wins? Nick: Yes, that is a good question. There's a whole ownership algorithm that deals with that. It works first come first served as you say, but ownership of a candidate only lasts for a specific period. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but it only lasts for a specific period, and the applications and activity that happen during that period are logged and still work. And then the ownership changes, the idea of which is that it keeps the data fresh. If you send your CV to a recruiter who's crap who adds their CV onto the system and basically nothing happens, in a certain period of days that will change and a new recruiter can take over. So there's a whole complicated algorithm that deals with that. Joel: All right, Nick, I think we're done with our questioning. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's time to face the Firing Squad. Chad, you want to take the first honors? Chad: Yeah, yeah, I certainly do. Nick. Hey, we really appreciate you bringing SBOJ, SBOJ, jobs backwards, to the firing squad. There are a ton of things that are happening in the industry today. Here in the U.S. we're seeing some things, and obviously that translates differently over to the UK. Becoming a true marketplace, which is, it seems like where you want to go, is going to be much more automated. It sounds like you have some great automation in place, but going toward becoming a true marketplace will mean that you have to get rid of more human friction. It's all about the easy button. Chad: And I understand the want and the need to keep the human involved, but you're going to have to find different ways to do that. I think that the staffing culture in the UK, if you were pitching this in the U.S. and you were mostly U.S. based, you'd have the guns in a heartbeat. But, because the UK staffing culture is so much different, I think you have a shot at this concept in platform if you move quickly in the next 18 months. So I'm going to give you a golf clap. Nick: Thank you. Joel: The English are so polite. Chad: They are. Joel: Thank you for a neutral rating. All right, Nick, it's my turn. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Have you seen the movie The Untouchables? Nick: Of course, yeah. Joel: With Sean Connery and Kevin Costner and the like. Nick: Yeah. Joel: There's a scene in that movie where Sean Connery's with Kevin Costner and he says, "Do you really want to open this box and go after Capone?" And he says, "Yes." And Sean Connery says, basically, "If you want to get Capone, he pulls a knife and you pull a gun. He puts one of yours in the hospital, you put one of his in the morgue." Nick: Yeah. Joel: So when I'm listening to you pitch this company, I can't help but think about the fact that you're bringing a knife to a gunfight. It's really hard for me to wrap my head around the amount of technical teams that you've had. You're not a technical person by nature, yet you're building a technical or a technology-based company. I think that the competition that you're facing from almost a two-front war. You're facing a battle with some really well-established staffing companies in the UK, but you're also fighting a battle on the tech side competing with some like Syft and some of the other ones that we've talked about in the call. So for me, I will say one thing is I like the name now where I didn't like it before, and I definitely think you need to have like jobs backwards on the logo somewhere because it's very memorable to people if you do that. Joel: But for me, man, I think you're bringing a knife to a gunfight. And unless that venture capital and the Dragons' Den guys back up the brink's truck, it's going to be really hard for you to make this thing work. So for me, you're a nice guy, Nick, I think you're going to make some something happen somewhere. But this, for me, is not the gig. So for me, it's the guns. Take that for what it's worth, but I think you'd be better served doing something else. Nick: No, cool. Really, I wanted your opinion. It's kind of difficult to always push it through in the right way. And you're right. It's a big market and there's a lot going on and, and I've learned that from you, but we've got some interesting tech. So, you know, I think ... Joel: Like I've said before, nothing would make my heart sing more than if you could come on five years from now and say, "Fuck you, Cheesman. We're a multibillion dollar company." I would love that. But for now, we'll have to wait for five years. For those out there that want to want to know more about [Spooge 00:31:00], I mean SBOJ, Nick, where should they go? Nick: Just visit our site, spoj.com, S-P-O-J.com. It's jobs backwards. Joel: I love it. Chad: There you go. Joel: Chad. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Announcer: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E.com. SFX: Shall we play a game? #FiringSquad #SBOJcom #recruiting #OpenAI #Talroo

The boys sit down with Jennifer Rock and Michael Voss two high-ranking corporate comms leaders as we talk all things Clusterpuck. Operation Clusterpuck is a book bourne out of real life corporate bullshit that is dark, real, and fucking funny.​ Enjoy what one Amazon reviewer said, "Reading this book is like getting a master's degree in corporate communications, without all the expense and pain of getting a master's degreed." LISTEN and enjoy thanks to our friends at Nexxt and Text2Hire - why aren't you reaching out to candidates via text? PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions' clients are changing the lives of people with disabilities, including veterans with service related disabilities. James Ellis: Hey, this is James Ellis from the Talent Cast podcast and you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. So perhaps treat this message like an intervention. Why are you doing this to yourself? You have so much to live for. Why would you waste your time here of all places? Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors you're listening to HR's is most dangerous podcast Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news slash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Let's get ready to podcast. What's up Chad? Chad: Man, it's another day in paradise, how about up North? Joel: Beautiful day here in Indianapolis, Indiana as usual. God's country. Chad: Dude. So I'm totally stoked. I have this book in front of me. It's called Operation Clusterpuck a puck with the a P not a not cluster fuck. That's a military term. That's a military term that we use all the time. But Operation Clusterpuck. Joel: No one outside of the military ever says cluster fuck. Chad: We have a, we came up with that shit. So today on the Chad and Cheese podcast, we have Jennifer Rock and Michael Voss. Co-authors of this amazing, very dark corporate comedy book called Operation Clusterpuck. I told Jennifer and Mike, I was like, dude, I'm not gonna read the back of your book like most of the other lame podcasters. Ed: Yo, that John is so lame. Chad: I want to hear it. Thanks for that. I want to hear from you guys. Who are you and what was the inspiration behind this series of books? Joel: And for those of us like me who haven't read the book, give us a synopsis. Michael: Sure. Happy to. So Jennifer and I are corporate communications professionals, so we have about 40 years of combined experience in all sorts of communications disciplines, from marketing communications to public relations, internal communications, et cetera. We crossed paths at Best Buy headquarters, which is here in suburban Minneapolis where we led the internal communications team. And unbeknownst to one another, we had been keeping copious notes of all the absurd and crazy and just sort of- Jennifer: Soul crushing- Michael: ... soul crushing experiences that we've had. Chad: Are these like the Comey notes? Michael: They are, they're just a little darker and a little funnier then and the Comey notes. We were in a soul crushing half day meeting. You know, anybody who works in corporate America knows how those go. And we, we frankly made an excuse to sneak out, said we had a crisis that we had to attend to. We went to a bar patio, started having drinks and swapping stories and shared with one another that we'd always had the dream of writing a book and decided that we would pinky swear that after we sobered up, we would actually give it a shot. And six years later, our first book came out, BS Incorporated. And about 18 months after that we wrote Operation Clusterpuck. Joel: Is six years longer than you thought it would take to write this book? Jennifer: Oh God, yes. Yeah. It's, you know, we, we like to joke and it's not so much of a joke that working corporate communications and you know, writing speeches for executives has a fair amount of fiction in it. But actually writing a fiction book, actually writing a novel took us a little time to figure out, so yeah, six years, we had no idea it was going to take that long. Chad: So was it mainly the mechanics of how the hell do we do this? Do we whiteboard, do we do like one of those serial killer string boards? I mean, was it just figuring out the mechanics or was it because you were so damn busy on your day job that it was really hard to actually pull together as well? Jennifer: Yeah, it was a little bit of both. Absolutely the mechanics of writing a novel and making it sound like one person wrote it, that took some time to figure out. And also we had really big jobs. I mean 24/7 jobs, crisis communications and you know, handling scandals at the corporate level. We're like ducking in the back seats of the, you know, the corporate jet and jotting down notes. I mean, we had no shortage of ideas and characters and things to put into these books about this big Midwestern company that's spiraling out of control and these middle managers who, who rise up to try to save the company from itself. Joel: You know, you lost a lot of sympathy when you say private jet, right? Chad: Oh yeah. That sounds so hard. Joel: Life is so hard in the back of the private jet- [crosstalk 00:04:41]. Chad: Drinking champagne and caviar. Jennifer: It was awesome. We got, you know, we got behind closed doors in some conversations and some experiences in corporate America that people rarely get to see. So we had a lot of insider stories that we wanted to share. And that's what really fueled the book. Joel: So how much book is fiction and how much is based in reality? Michael: That is a, the best question and the most common question we get. The book is fictionalized versions of real events. Essentially. Now there are some pieces that we lift a scene that we actually lived a meeting, a conversation, that type of thing. But really it's largely fiction, but it's written in such a way and it's drawn, you know, we like to joke, it's ripped from the headlines, but it's- Joel: The names have been changed. Michael: Right but we hear from our readers all the time, they say, it seems like you snuck into my company observed my daily life and then wrote a book about it. So it's really accessible for people. They will really see themselves and their companies and these books. Chad: So was this, I mean inspiration wise, was this, hey, there's possible fortune and fame or this'll help us kick off into a new career or you know what, this is just going to help my stress level. It will be incredibly cathartic to be able to get to some, some of this out of my head. Jennifer: Yeah. It really started out as a cathartic exercise and the first book, BS Incorporated, the manuscript was like 160,000 words and most of it was just word for word, these horrible boring meetings we were sitting in. I mean, they are horrible meetings to sit in, in real life. Nobody wants to read that shit. I mean, are you kidding me? Like it was so awful, but it was really cathartic just to put it on paper and then we pared it down and do something that we really, our goal was to just be entertaining. You know, we all, I think in our jobs have to read a lot of nonfiction books. There's some really great ones out there that teach you lessons about leadership and team dynamics. A lot of them are very boring and we just wanted to write a book that makes people realize they're not alone in the corporate world. Jennifer: Have a sense of kind of co-misery and maybe hang out with some fictional characters that you wish you were having happy hour with in real life. Joel: So what's the book about? Michael: So, both books are about this giant Midwestern company that, as Jennifer said, is spiraling out of control and the executives make one bad decision after another. We take you behind the scenes to a group of quirky, smart middle managers who are just trying to fight through the bureaucracy of consultants and poor decisions and just, you know, getting bogged down in their day to day job. And eventually they figure out what's going wrong with the company and they have to band together despite their differences and figure out how to save this company from itself. Because at the end of the day, we're not an anti-business story. We're really about, you know, the joy and the pain of the corporate experience and all the great relationships you make along the way, as well as some of the, you know, the awful things you have to wade through to get through this. Chad: The book starts out with this big earth shaking event and this is after BS Incorporated acquires another company. There's new leadership. I mean, there are so many moving parts just at the start, I mean, I started reading this, I'm like, holy shit. I was like totally immersed right out of the gate, but it's pure chaos. Is that what you experienced in corporate life because this is dark comedic and chaos laden book that seems that it was really based closely on reality. Jennifer: Yeah. Well, you know, it might be weird to say thank you. Yeah, we're, we're really dark. But yeah, we pride ourselves on that actually. And yeah, I mean absolutely. Some of this was stuff that we encountered in real life or that we've seen in companies in our backyard here in Minneapolis and certainly the ill-fated expansion to Canada is something that we experienced in the companies we worked for. And have seen other ones it in and you know, we, Mike and I have found ourselves in the companies that we have worked with, you know, mired in and trying to help companies wade through changes at the leadership at the top of the house. Maybe not as jarring and tragic as this book starts out, Operation Clusterpuck. But certainly these are things that we experienced. And you know, I've never had a job like my last where I had to sleep with my phone in my hand waiting for that 3:00 AM call that was going to be, oh, you know, now what you know, now what has the company done now what has a CEO done? Chad: Which blows my mind because it's like every aspect of what's going on from a business standpoint and even some of these personal scandals and I mean everything goes through communications or it should go through communications and it just doesn't. Michael: Yeah, absolutely. We had a, when we were at Best Buy, we had three CEO transitions in a six month period. The current CEO resigned supposedly under, you know, just normal circumstances. But it turned out there was actually a scandal going on that the board of directors tried to cover up. Jennifer: And let's be clear, it was a sex scandal. Michael: Yes. And that blew up in the board's faces. And so they appointed an interim CEO that everyone thought was going to get the job and then a dark horse candidate came out of nowhere and then ended up getting the job. So we were constantly scrambling to try to get in front of a what was happening or just catch up to what was happening and trying to keep all of our audiences informed and not have them, you know, employees bailing on the company or investors divesting of the company. Michael: It was constant as Jennifer said, it was a 24 hour a day, you know, mind fuck essentially. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's commercial time. Announcer: Okay. So we've already established texting is probably the best way to connect with candidates, right? Plus next stats show 73% of professionals are open to receiving job opportunities via text and with a 99% delivery rate, you cannot go wrong. Those are two big reasons why you've got gotta love text to hire from Nexxt. That's right. Text2hire from Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. Nexxt has over 8 million candidates who have opted in to receive jobs via text and you and your clients need qualified candidates. Nexxt can help you find and target qualified candidates who have opted in for job opportunities via text. And in today's competitive market, you need an edge to reach qualified candidates faster. You need text2hire from Nexxt. Just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Nexxt logo to learn more about how you can gain a competitive edge with opt in texting, text2hire from Nexxt. It just makes sense. Chad: It's show time. Joel: So I'm envisioning Office Space for a book. How much of an influence was movie, if at all? I'm curious, most books have an antagonist. Did your book and tell us about that. Jennifer: Yeah, you know it. How can you not be influenced by a movie like Office Space? You know, The Office and I mean God, those are great, great corporate stories, great office stories. You know that you watch even to this day, I mean, that movie is really old now. When you watch that and go, God, I hate my job too. Like yeah, that's, you know, my stapler is my, you know, the hallmark of the best of my day. I mean, how sad is that? So yeah, I mean, absolutely you can't help but be influenced by stories like that. And yeah, you know, we, we watched movies like that and think why aren't there more stories that take place in the workplace? It's such a rich environment for all the craziness that happens in the characters that exist. And yeah, absolutely. We were influenced by that. Michael: And I think for me, Joel, when we first started out, my, my frame of reference was to write a story like Fast Times at Ridgemont High in a business setting. So that it's still that [crosstalk 00:12:57] Ridgemont High in itself is a character in that movie, right? And we wanted our business to be almost like a character in the book. We wanted to have these unforgettable characters and this snappy dialogue and really just sort of immerse people in this world. So that was my personal frame of reference going in. Joel: And was there a, an antagonist in the story? Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's about the antagonist. So, you know, in Operation Clusterpuck certainly the rise of Lyle Kirkland who is the former chief operating officer- [crosstalk 00:13:26]. Chad: Total asshole. Jennifer: Completely and we have worked for him, at least, you know, he is not a person wholesale lifted from our real life, but he is an amalgam of several of our worst bosses we've ever had all you know, squished into one character and certainly, you know, he is unethical, he is immoral. If you were to ask that character, you know about this book, he would consider himself the hero. You know, as a lot of executives do, it's like, ah, I make tough decisions, but I do it for the good of the company when they are, it's just completely selfish and, and on the unethical. But you know, people sometimes ask us like, why don't you write about good leaders? Well, because the bad ones are so much more fun to write about. Chad: We don't want to have a boring book. How about that? So, so, so instead of just talking about Kirkland, who a total asshole, and you just said pretty much was a composite of different people. I'm going to throw some others out there. Because I've heard that some of the characters in the book might've been supporting cast were pretty much just pulled out of real life. So what about Anna? Michael: So Anna shares a lot of DNA with my coauthor Jennifer, to be honest with you. Anna and Jennifer are both very driven, very career oriented people very smart, very, very good at what they do. And it was a lot of fun to sort of take 70% of Jennifer and create 30% of a fictional character around her. So I don't know if you want to add anything about that, Jennifer. Jennifer: Well you know, early on in the first book, BS Incorporated when we first handed that manuscript over to an editor and the feedback was, you know, I don't know if Anna is likable and I'm like that's me. I'm sorry but I'm going to take that really personally. Yeah it was. But yes, Anna is definitely, we, like Mike said, we share a lot of DNA. Chad: What about Will? Jennifer: Yeah, Will is heavily based on my coauthor Mike. Similarly, you know, started out in a blue collar warehouse job, worked his way up in corporate roles, very diplomatic and very earnest person. Michael: And let's face it, the true hero of the story. Jennifer: Nice. I will point out that even though the characters of Anna and Will share a lot of our experiences, Anna and Will do have a romantic relationship in the book and that is where we, that is where we digress real life. Chad: Okay, okay. Jennifer: Our running joke used to be that Mike and I are married just not to each other. Chad: Gotcha. What about, what about Eric who was another asshole? Michael: So Eric, yeah, he's, he is drawn pretty much from scratch I think. Right? I'm not sure if we had a- Jennifer: well to be honest, he's a tiny bit based on an ex-boyfriend I had but that just a little bit. Michael: But Eric is that classic good looking charismatic guy who has, you know, a blind spot the size of the state of Missouri and just can't sort of get past himself and thinks he can do no wrong. But in the end isn't evil like Lyle Kirkland, he's just self-absorbed and that's really what trips him up in the end. Joel: Was there any permissions that you guys need needed to get as you know in Best Buy? I mean you have, you guys said influences, you said this was loosely based. Have you had any issues with lawsuits or people being upset by the story and the characters in it? Jennifer: No we haven't. And we are firm believers in that old adage to ask forgiveness instead of permission. So we just- Chad: Join the club. Jennifer: We just rolled ahead and told the story and told these characters and certainly especially with the first book we had, we had people read it, you know, they were texting us constantly like, oh come on. Like you didn't even try to, you know veil this character. It's like clearly this is me. Come on. Like we had this conversation on page 42 like come on. So I think people were maybe a tad worried for the sequel. Like well like, ah, now what have you done? Like, what notes did you take in what meeting that is going to show up in Operation Clusterpuck? But I guess the good news is that the people who might sue us, those bad leaders never see themselves in the bad characters. They're never that self-aware. So we were pretty secure in the fact that, you know, even though we lifted some horrible conversations right from real life that they would never remember. Joel: That wasn't me. What is she talking about? Chad: Your supporting cast in Will and Anna's team, they seemed incredibly real, almost like you pick them right out of reality. They didn't seem like a composites. Is that pretty much? Did that make it easier to write? So you're like, okay, so at this point they're supporting characters. So we feel like we can just really nail these guys on the head. Michael: Yeah. Almost to a person. Every one of them started with a real person and the real fun in that is, you know, we would choose someone for the most part that we both knew. So we had a great starting point and I think the best example of that is Benny, the PR manager, Susan Benedetti. Everyone calls her Benny. She's based on a good friend of ours named Lisa and she, she's very much like that. Michael: She's a Bostonian. She's bold. She swears like a sailor. She just sort of storms in and out of every room she's in. Chad: Love her. Michael: She's a real life scene stealing person and every everybody we know like immediately said, oh that's Lisa. Everyone knew that was Lisa. And so she was a really fun one to write because we could take some actual things that our friend Lisa had said, some of the hilarious one-liners and then it was just fun to make stuff up knowing that it was just true to her character as well. Joel: Curious, there are a lot of external sources for commentary on the workplace, so I'm sure you're familiar with Glass Door, Indeed has reviews. Twitter obviously there are a lot of sources for sort of external commentary. Did you guys use any of that? And if you did talk about that. Jennifer: Well that's a great point. You know, I think in both, in the cases of writing both books, we had such a rich folder of materials from our own experiences. Again, no shortage of stories. We ended up having to lop some out of the manuscript because it was too long. But we certainly talked to friends, we talked to people who worked at different companies. Operation Clusterpuck was based in some companies that we had been consulting for. We also had the benefit of, you know, while we didn't necessarily look directly at feedback like Indeed and Glassdoor, we also had the benefit of doing a ton of interviews like this for the first book where it's like the podcasters would turn off the mics and say, okay, let me tell you about the bat shit crazy thing that happened at the company I used to work for. So again, we got some great stories from people that we would say, you know what? We weren't there. This is somebody else's story. But man, this is going in the book. Chad: That's awesome. So in the kind of consolidation or acquisition was happening, automation started to take center stage. Did either of you have experience with like communications around automation starting to take center stage, like the Best Buys of the world or some of your clients? Or was that just something that you ripped out of the headlines? Michael: Again, it's a little bit of both. So we, you know, we worked for Best Buy along enough to where I'm the social media and internal social media really exploded and what sort of electronic and digital tools could we use to communicate with employees. And we were fortunate to be given a lot of freedom to spearhead those kinds of things. So, you know, working with IT, which is always you know, a bit of a like a dentist visit in every meeting we managed to push through and get some things done, but we also did rip some things from the headlines. Michael: So obviously we had experience at Best Buy and Best Buy went into Canada with sort of middling success. But Target, which is also based here in Minneapolis, went into Canada with a huge splash and basically got kicked back across the Southern border and they had some real genuine automation issues and just some silly human error issues that we touched on a little bit in the book too, like not converting to the metric system or not realizing it's 10 boxes to a case instead of 12 or whatever that might be. So they had a, a rich story of failure really that we can just draw a little pieces from because we're not trying to tell that story in particular, but you know, the combination of all businesses facing, you know, challenges with systems and automation along with the human error side of it can create, you know, a cluster fuck. Joel: So are you guys working on a new book and if so, what's it about? Jennifer: Yeah. You know, we've always said that we may continue this universe but to be honest, you know, we were kind of taken a page out of the Marvel Comic universe of like what if we told something from an expanded business world. And so book three we are sketching out right now may have a couple of minor characters overlapping but really is a new industry, new characters. And we want to tell something a little different, something that we've had some experience in from a consulting perspective. Kind of the Wild West, if you will, of of what's going on with some of business growth and in some new industries. So sorry to be vague, but, but still, you know, putting thoughts on paper and you know, people sometimes ask us like, how are you afraid you're gonna run out of business stories to tell? Well no good Lord. Have you worked in corporate America? Like, no, we just have to choose which one, not to go dig one up. Joel: As you guys had done this for a while, do you find that things are changing rapidly or do you find that the more things change the more they stay the same? Michael: You know, I think the human element stays the same. Certainly the business landscape is rapidly evolving, as you've mentioned with automation and digital tools and there's an entirely new, you know, the startup culture is sort of permeating even big companies now that they want to mimic and mirror that. So that landscape is sort of shifting beneath our feet. But in the end people are people and you're always gonna run across, you know, absurdity, selfishness, greed, all those kinds of, you have the seven deadly sins, so to speak, of human behavior set on a shifting landscape. And that's why we feel like there's many, many stories yet to be told. Chad: Okay. So I have to say I'm sad because first and foremost I received Operation Clusterpuck and it's one of those things where, you know, I either dive into it or I just think it sucks and it gets half read and it is what it is. Right at the end of this book, much like many of the kind of like Netflix series that you get into that you really enjoyed at the end of the last episode you're like, ah fuck, I'm done. I gotta wait until the next season. Right? That's where I was. So I went online and I'm like, oh shit, there's a first book. I can do this, you know, almost like the prequel. So I bought the first book because I enjoyed Operation Clusterpuck so much. But I have to say, I'm kind of pissed that you're not carrying it onto a trilogy. So I would like to make a request that you definitely pull some of those characters over. And also, what about audio books? Are you guys looking at doing audibles at all or anything like that? Jennifer: Well, first of all, you've now just made us feel like Big Little Lies where it's like, wait, this is the end of the series? It's like, no, what's the second one? You want to know what happens next. So, no, but thank you for that. And yeah, I mean if, if, first of all, if you read Operation Clusterpuck, you know, you don't need to know the background to jump into that one. As you said, BS Incorporated is kind of the origin story of, you know, Anna's first day at the company and you know, how the company has has progressed. So definitely you can read them out of order. It's all good. And as far as audio, yeah, we've danced around that idea. We thought it might be fun. You know, I would love to, you know, get like the Lisas of the world, our real people to play their characters in the audio version. I don't know if that's possible, but wouldn't that be fun? Michael: That would be fun. And if for some reason we don't go back to this, you know, this company and this set of characters, there's always an opportunity for other people to write fanfiction, of course. Chad: Yeah, of course. So what about, are you pitching this because this is, this is funny shit. This is very Office Space. Like are you pitching this to any companies to perspectively being on the big screen or anything like that? Michael: That is the big dream for sure. And we've had a couple of conversations that that just haven't materialized. And of course that's the thing that gets an author really excited. The opportunity to take these characters in this story and put it up on the big screen. So nothing has materialized yet, but our phone lines are open for anyone who might be interested. Chad: Well I have to say Jennifer Rock and Michael Voss again, the book is called Operation Clusterpuck. Where can they find out more? Give us all the websites, give us all the social and all that other fun stuff. Jennifer: Well you know our central location for all things Clusterpuck is RockandVossbooks.com and from there you can find direct links to get the books on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble, direct from our distributor. You know all the places that fine books are sold and you know, dark humor and not so fine books are sold. So you can find us all there online and you know what, you can find our social media and our email address out there as well. And you know, if you've got a particularly awful corporate experience story that you'd like to share with us to see in a wound into a future book, man, we'd love to hear that too. Joel: Awesome. Thanks guys. Jennifer: Thanks for having us. Chad: Thank you. Excellent. We out. Joel: We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? A podcast with Chad and Cheese. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs to people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible and not one word about cheese but one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepperjack, swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play or whatever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode and while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for creme cheese is so weird. We out. #Facebook #Clusterpuck #BookReview

Think Google's going to have an easy time taking over the world of employment? "Well, think again," says Europe, as 23 job sites file a lawsuit against the search engine giant. What else, LinkedIn is in the news, and niche job boards may be making a comeback, assuming they can turn back the marketplace assault on all-things-employment ... even healthcare. Enjoy and give our sponsors Sovren, JobAdx, and Canvas some love. It all happens because of them. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions partners with employers on disability inclusion initiatives to design scalable solutions to support strategic and operational goals in staffing, training, retention, compliance and engagement.​ Tim Sackett: Hi, I'm Tim Sackett, and you're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm not sure why you are, but hey, you do you. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinions, and loads of snark, buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: We're back, bitches. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous, never mind the fact that the bar for danger is pretty low in HR. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, Europe takes on Google for Jobs, good luck with that. The case for itty bitty niche job boards and why not LinkedIn, why not? Grab a cold sarsaparilla and some ding dongs, we'll be right back after this word from Canvas. Chad: He said ding dongs. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvas bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine-learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify our employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy, and are laser focused on recruiters' success. Canvas: Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io, get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: What's up, Chad? I missed you last week, kind of sort of. Chad: Lies. Joel: Some of our listeners missed us too, I think. Chad: Yeah, yeah, they did. There's a time to step back from the mic and that was it, no question. Joel: I agree, I agree. But the feedback was positive, so we appreciate all the listeners for the good feedback that we got. Chad: Shout out. Joel: Shout outs, Collin at ICIMS, I want to say back to back years being a top 50 softwares and service CEO, well done, Collin. That's great, dude. Chad: Yeah, he's killing it. iCIMS like 13 years in a row, like Inc. Magazine or something like that, fastest growing companies. That's obviously a company to continue to watch. Joel: Really excited about their analysts meeting this year in Scottsdale. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That should be interesting. Chad: Should be a blast. Stan and team over at Recruited, big shout out for you guys, sharing a hilarious video of us at RecFest. We were all amped up after being onstage, and drinking half a bottle of Jameson, and I love how the Brits highlight what idiots we are. That to me really shows here's your Chad and Cheese. Joel: Yeah, not hard to do. Not hard to do. By the way, dude, I'm disappointed I gave you a big opening for yoga in Scottsdale and you totally missed it. I thought you were totally going to grab onto that yoga, #yoga, if you want Chad and Cheese to do a yoga session in Scottsdale. Chad: So are you going to do it? Joel: Well, if the people want it, I've got some legwarmers and some leotards that I could potentially wear, definitely a nice sweat band for the head, maybe some wrist weights. I could get a good look going for sure. Chad: Now see, you always tease people but then you don't do it. There was no speedo in London, okay? So don't tease people about yoga and legwarmers if you're not going to do it. Joel: I am a big tease, aren't I? Chad: You are a tease. Joel: That's bad. Chad: And that being said, in London, another shout out to our friends at Talent Nexus. We never really did a movie review, but it's funny because the movie that they did, kind of like the short documentary, it shows that we're serious, we're passionate about what we do- Joel: So serious. Chad: We don't take ourselves so fucking serious. But thanks to the guys at Talent Nexus for showing us, a couple of regular guys, and that we just speak our mind, like it or not. Joel: I didn't expect the handholding at the end to be so controversial, but there you go. Chad: It was a Gladiator-like scene, and again, I think it's funny because all of that kind of wrapped up with passion and there's kind of tongue in cheek shit that's happening throughout the entire video, and then at the end, just kind of wraps it up like, oh, these guys aren't really that serious. Okay. Joel: Shout out to a couple of dapper dons supporting the T-shirts on social media, Mark Feffer and Dennis Tupper. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: I'm not sure how your wives let you out of the house like that, but they did, and we appreciate the love on social media. Chad: Shout out to Kelly and Allister over at ContentApp.ai, dude, I love it. They hooked us up with the Content app platform and what it does is it sends me articles via text, and I can share them throughout all my socials through one quick response via text message. So I don't have to go into a different platform, I don't have to do all this shit. I just set it up in Content app, and then it just automatically happens. So love it. Joel: Chad is a sharing machine thanks to Content app. Chad: Goddamn straight. Joel: Whether that's a good thing or not, I'm not sure, but you are allowed to do it and that's a very cool technology. Chad: Yes. Joel: Shout out to Katrina Collier. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: She wrote a book that you're pretty high on, you're actually making animated gifs of you reading this book, which I can't imagine a more boring animated gif, but hey, you do you, Chad. Chad: Yes. The Robot-Proof Recruiter deserved more than just a picture. It deserved a series of pictures being animated, which is what we call a gif or what the kids call a "jiff," which I don't understand- Ed: Yo, that jawn is so lame. Chad: That's not how it works. Jiff is a peanut butter. Gif is a moving picture. A big shout out to Kelly Services for their You Need a New Job ad, or ads, which are all over YouTube, dude. And they're like Stupid Human Tricks meets old CareerBuilder ads, right? Joel: Yeah, so the theme is videos on social media that are totally ridiculous and saying you should be looking for a job instead of watching this stupid video. My personal favorite is the monkey massage, which is a little bit of a play on the CareerBuilder monkey ads, kind of sort of, loosely based on that, I guess. So I'm hoping that they don't get a letter from PETA, because they are using a chimp in a commercial, which is usually anti-PETA, but they're massaging the monkey, which I'm assuming is pro-PETA. So I'm not sure where they're going to land on the PETA mark on that one. But we'll see. Chad: You just said massaging the monkey. Joel: I did. Chad: Okay, so last shout out- Joel: They're not spanking the monkey, which would definitely be anti-PETA. Chad: Like there's anything different from ... Okay, so going onto my last shout out is to Hung Lee at Recruiting Brainfood and their podcast/Facebook Live event. We're going to be on it this week, so if you're listening now and you missed it, no worries. Just subscribe to the Recruiting Brainfood podcast, because Hung Lee. That's enough, right? Joel: Hung is totally bottom feeding with having us on the show. I love it. I love it. Way to go, Hung. SFX: That is one big pile of shit. Joel: Let's get to our travel schedule. Chad: Woo, travel sponsored by Shaker Recruitment Advertising, no, no shit, guys. Joel: Allegedly he's talking about teasing, they're allegedly getting us Shaker suits. Chad: Yes. We just received Shaker yetis in the mail. Joel: I'm drinking out of mine right now. Chad: The Shaker yeti, we've got the roll-ons, we've got the backpacks, the trucker hats, the ... Joel: Yep. Chad: Yeah, the only thing we need, you're right, we need Shaker Recruitment Marketing suits. Joel: I hate suits. I don't want a suit. Give me like the tuxedo T- shirt that's Shaker tuxedo T-shirt. Chad: Okay. Joel: But I don't want to wear a suit. That's your game. Chad: Okay, you do that and then I'll do me and I'll do the actual suit. I'm all for that. But we are going to Sweden, people. Going to see our friends at TNG, Ada Digital and- Joel: Friends both human and not so human. Chad: And Tengai, that's exactly right, the robots. So we're really excited to be able to jump on a plane, get out there to Sweden, have some fun with the gang, do some live podcasts. Joel: Nice. Are we doing the podcast in Swedish for our Swedish listeners? No, probably not. Chad: I'm going to have to get my Google Translate, have to download Swedish so I can just sit there and listen to it. Joel: I did see in Ikea this week that "adjo" is goodbye in Swedish. So we can at least say goodbye to everyone. Chad: If we're actually saying it right. Joel: Yeah. Chad: We did get a Tweet from Henrik Christensen, who's the CEO of Jobbsafari and Jobindex in Denmark and Sweden. Here's his Tweet, he said, "Chad and Joel, when you visit Tengai in Malmo, why not cross the bridge to Copenhagen? Besides running a job board, I run as a travel guide in sneakers. I think this run is made for you." And then he sent us a link to the Copenhagen beer running tour, and just so that you know, I'm totally doing it. I've already coordinated with Henrik, and it's on my schedule. We're in. Joel: All right, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Chad: I love when our listeners reach out and say, "Hey, you're coming to my town, I'm going to treat you to some good shit." And that is ... I like to run and I like beer, so doing them together is pretty fucking awesome. Joel: No doubt. And if people wonder whether we're global or not, there you go. We're getting Swedish Copenhagen Denmark races, what is it, a 5K? Chad: Yeah, that's a 5K, yeah. I don't know if we'll make it that far, we'll see. Joel: No, you can do that in your sleep. Chad: Oh yeah, I can do 5K pretty easy. But spending some time in Copenhagen and crossing the bridge, going over to Malmo, going up and spending some time in Sweden, thanks to our friends at TNG, [Ada 00:10:42], Digital, and obviously the robot, Tengai. Joel: No doubt. And if you have any other tourist traps that you want us to investigate, hashtag us at Chad Cheese, and we'll look into it. Chad: Next, we have Recruiter Nation Live. Joel: Nation Live, powered by Jobvite, yes, newly minted CEO Aman Brar. Chad: Amazing. Joel: Get ready, baby. Chad: That's right. Joel: And they gave us a discount code for listeners. Chad: What is it? Joel: Chad Cheese, all right, listen carefully, Chad Cheese at sign, not A and T, at sign, RNL. For $200 off admission to the show, we'll be there, a lot of thought leaders, industry experts, companies that you know and love, will be there, Recruiter Nation Live, can't wait. Chad: Yeah, and if you're in the San Francisco area already, why the hell aren't you going? It's September 9th through the 11th, get a couple hundred dollars off, come say hi, buy us a beer, we'll be there. Joel: I love it. Anchor steam. Chad: Anchor steam. Joel: Got to love that, when you go to San Francisco. A little Anchor Steam. Chad: Little anchor steam, bitch. Last but not least, we're going to talk about our events for at least September, we have Death Match in Austin during TAtech. Joel: Yes. SFX: That's it, man. Game over, man. Game over. Joel: Death Match. Our final contestants seek out .IO signed up this week, so we're super excited for the lineup that also includes Job.com, Assess First, not Asses First, Chad. Chad: Oh, okay. Joel: And I'm blanking on the last one. Chad: Pez.ai, right? Joel: Pez, yes. Chad: And the big key here is this is all brought to you by the big name Alexander Mann Solutions. So we're actually going to have the queen of chat bots is going to be on the judging panel from, Quincy Valencia from Alexander Mann Solutions, and then we're also going to have Cindy Songne from Talroo join us on the judging panel as well, to make sure that we have enough smart people on the judging panel to balance out our stupidity. Joel: This is a banging judge panel, by the way. Chad: But that's September 24th through the 26th. It's in Austin, if you're in and around Austin or who doesn't want to go to Austin? Austin is a fun place to go, especially in September, late September, check it out. Just go to Chadcheese.com or go to TAtech.org, either way, find our way there and we'll see you there. And again, we don't have a problem with you buying us a beer. Joel: Yeah, who knows, we all might just crash Indeed's headquarters, they're in Austin, have a party. Who knows? Chad: I'm in. Joel: Just saying. Chad: All right, let's lock some news. Joel: Let's get to the news, baby. All right. Google for Jobs against Europe, didn't see this coming, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Trust issues, monopoly issues, a group of 23 job sites, I believe, for anti-trust issues of taking away their pie of job board postings and recruiting dollars. Chad: See, I think the EU saw that Google got slapped on the anti-trust for shopping, and they thought that Google wouldn't make adjustments. Well, guess what, guys? They fucking made adjustments. And as we told you when we were in Ireland last year, Google is coming to the EU, get ready. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: So the EU needs to understand how to leverage lifestyle platforms instead of fighting them. Google, obviously they've made adjustments and U.S. sites saw a bump in traffic from Google for Google for Jobs when they launched. Joel: To me, when you file lawsuits, and I'm not an expert on EU and all the laws and anti-trust stuff. It's a lot more serious there than it is here. But when you start suing companies for anti-competitive activities, you usually don't have a whole lot of leg to stand on. And you're scared, you don't have a lot of other options, things look dire, so let's sue everybody. And this is going to play out like every other lawsuit that Google has had, it'll be in court for two, three years, they'll continue to gain market share. The companies that are suing Google, like let's see if they take their jobs off of Google for Jobs, if their jobs are already on there. Chad: That's the question. Joel: To me, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't benefit from the traffic and then sue Google for anti-competitive activity. So to me, this is a lot of smoke and not a lot of fire. I think it may get settled for a billion dollars, and these sites will get paid and then they can fade off into the sunset, which they'll probably have to do anyway. So I think it's going to end up a whole lot of nothing, but it is expected that this happened, but to me this is just like hanging on, trying to get every dollar you can and doing that through lawsuits. Chad: From the EU side of the house, if you are looking on Google for Jobs today, and you can actually see if StepStone, if they're pushing their jobs out to Google for Jobs, if they're marking their jobs up, if they're there, let us know, because StepStone I believe is going to be one of the bigger organizations, Axel Springer, to be able to press this forward. They have from some of the articles a formal complaint up to the EU already. The big question though, if they're not marking their jobs up to be able to be in Google for Jobs, do they really have a case? I mean, they're not using everything that Google's providing to be able to do what Google wants to do, which is provide them with more traffic. So do they really have a case at this point? Joel: I think if you look into the story and some of the particulars, they're concerned that Google's not just hey indexing jobs and sending traffic. They're talking about Google has salespeople contacting recruiters to post jobs and use their ... Because they also have more than just job postings, right? They have an ATS, they have job search functionality, so I think the company ... And the lawsuit it's talking about, this isn't just links to our site, this is actually Google coming after our competitors, or our customers. And I think that's where maybe the crux of some of that is. To me it's like, settle in, this is the world we live in and lawsuits may temper the time that your demise occurs, but your demise is coming regardless unless you do what you just said was evolve, pivot, figure it out, do some other things aside from just put help wanted signs on the internet. Chad: Yeah. And I think the best experience wins here, so when we talk about hey, we really believe Google is going to go straight to the applicant tracking systems, and I know iCIMS is working with them and some of the other applicant tracking systems are working with Google, but still, if that user experience is not amazing, and they're having a better user experience with job boards because job boards are focusing on that area and they're making it easier for candidates to apply, then the job boards are going to win. Because Google can see how much time is being spent, so if there's quick ejection out of that, it doesn't matter if an applicant tracking system has their jobs in the system or not. It doesn't. It's all about experience. Joel: Yeah. You could sue them or try to make Google your bitch, right? Try to make it work for you. Or the real power of what these 23 sites could do is shut Google off, right? Like take a cue from Indeed and say, "Okay, we're going to try to strangle you off at the source and not let you succeed" and try to get as many job boards in Europe to join your cause to keep Google for Jobs out. That would be a much better strategy. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But it's easier to file lawsuits, fuck it. Chad: There was another article that we saw about niche job board domination. Joel: Yep. Chad: And I think this lends itself to this discussion of let's take a look at how job sites can actually flourish, you know? Not just looking at the basics. So this was from Imrinder from Rchilli and he was talking about the power of niche being super targeted, quality over quantity, and then he named some names on job boards. And one of those job boards was college recruiter, who we know- Joel: Our friends, yeah. Chad: Yeah, have actually evolved quickly away from this duration-based job board kind of scenario, and they're embracing the Google job search API. It's actually helping them, job seekers are staying longer on the site, they're doing more searches because it's more relevant, and they're moving toward performance-driven ads over duration. This is the key to what we're seeing from job sites who don't want to build this moat- Joel: Yep. Chad: ... and not innovate. Joel: Yeah, and I think a big part of what niche sites are allowed to do or able to do that the big sites have a much harder time doing is just really good content and community. You know, providing stuff that's relevant to your audience is hard to do, but it's going to be something that brings people back, keeps them engaged, building community where people can engage with each other, interact with each other. Those tend to be where niche job boards have an advantage. You know, and I know you're a fan of Sun Tzu as I am, but right, so when you're fighting a bigger enemy, zig when they're zagging. And you're not going to beat Google, LinkedIn, Indeed in terms of job postings and quantity, but you can sure win the battle of quality, it just takes a little different mindset and strategy around that. Joel: But niche job boards are successful when they do that. I know, we haven't talked about Dice in quite a while, but DHI had their Q3 results call recently, and they suck much less than they do a year ago. And part of that is they're cutting costs and they're sort of revamping things. There's a niche site with clearance jobs in particular, right, that's a niche that is in high demand and they're profiting pretty well from that. The E-financial stuff is fairly solid on that end, and even Dice, which we give a hard time for, is I think they were down I think 10% last year, this year down 1% in terms of revenue. So they suck much less, they're getting better. I think if they can figure out the feature set better, the engagement better, the content better, we may continue to be talking about Dice as a turnaround story in the next 12 months. Chad: Art should definitely come on the show now and say, "Hey, we're sucking much less than we did. We're on a trajectory." Let's have that discussion, Art. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Here's my thing, I really believe that these niche job sites need to be focusing on becoming marketplaces. This is where I think consolidation could definitely happen. Indeed bought Sift, so the job board bought the actual marketplace tech itself, or vice versa, right? Joel: Yeah, yeah. Chad: So that to me makes it much easier for a company to engage when you become a marketplace for them as opposed to a place just to be able to throw your ads. Whether it's performance, it's programmatic, or it's duration, you're still throwing your ads out there. They might be more pinpointed, but when you talk about a marketplace, that's an entirely different conversation. Joel: You could actually argue that marketplaces are a bigger threat to job boards than- Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: ... the big guys like Google and Facebook and LinkedIn. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We've seen sort of the general stuff, we've seen services, hourly jobs, which to me is pretty low-hanging fruit for this marketplace environment, but in the news this week, a site called Nomad Health, which is only a couple years old I think, raised $34 million basically Uber for healthcare opportunists, right? So we talk about service stuff with chefs and service, waitresses and wait staff, this is a healthcare platform to bring on nurses and radiologists and whatever in a Uber-type platform contract way. To me, that signals everything's going to go marketplace at some point, right? Chad: There's no reason that it shouldn't. I mean, seriously, we're talking about connectivity here, and right now we have very loose connectivity when we're just pushing our jobs out there or we're diving into, a recruiter's diving in a resume database. That's really loose connectivity when you have individuals who are in a marketplace, that is so much of a tighter network. Right? If you can see availabilities and you can see openings, and the system can start to make those recommendations, right? That just makes a hell of a lot more sense as opposed to having to do all that fucking work yourself. Chad: The automation piece, this is where AI and machine learning really comes in, and it's loose AI, let's say, to be able to start making those recommendations that make sense to fill positions that much faster. Joel: Yeah. And I think very cool, I think one of the stats I've seen at one point is only one in four nursing degrees actually practice nursing. So you have a lot of people that are getting degrees but are either no longer practicing or just got a degree and didn't want to do it. Imagine how many of those might come back into the workforce if they realize, "Hey, I can flip the switch and go be a nurse when I want to at whatever hospital I want to or healthcare facility. And then when I don't want to work, I turn it off." This could be a big boon for the nursing shortage and solving that problem. Chad: It could be big for just across the board, just from a side hustle standpoint. Joel: Yeah. Chad: If I have time and I like to do those things, then yeah, let's go ahead and turn on my side hustle and let's get it on. Joel: Yeah, and talking about older nurses that leave the workforce permanently, this could be a part time gig for them when they go nurse when they want to, and these are 20, 30, 40 year experienced nurses. That platform's going to be a great thing for service industry like that. Chad: Yes. So big shot over the job board's bow, you're thinking too much about Google and you're not thinking enough about marketplaces. You're afraid, we totally get that, but focus on where the point of evolution is for this industry. It's not fighting the organizations like Google, it's working with them and creating marketplaces that you can leverage the shit out of their technology. Joel: Well, you know who's not scared, Chad? Chad: JobAdX. Joel: JobAdX. Let's hear from them and we'll talk about LinkedIn when we get back. Chad: Boom. JobAdX: Nope. Nah. Not for me. All these jobs look the same. Ugh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs, just halfheartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content, so why do we expect job seekers to react differently when reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people, and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection, and reducing candidate drop off. JobAdX: You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel, begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team? Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing "join us" at Jobadx.com. That's join us at J-O-B-A-D-X.com. Attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Chad: A quick shout out to Isabelle over at JobAdX because she is totally hooking us up- Joel: Yeah. Chad: ... with different places to go in Copenhagen and Sweden as well. Love those people. Wherever we're going, we get all these people saying, "Oh, I've been there, you have to go to these places." Joel: Yeah, I want to be Isabelle when I grow up. She just travels the world and eats at really nice restaurants and drinks really good liquor. Chad, why not LinkedIn? Chad: Well- Joel: Why not? Chad: See, it's interesting. Why aren't we talking about LinkedIn? So this is an article that actually popped out that talks about Twitter helps the powerful discover their worst selves, and leaves everyone else vulnerable. Facebook brings people together only to subject them to marketing and manipulation. Our social feeds aren't ready for 2020 and the election, right? Except for one. Is there anything the rest of us can do like LinkedIn? Joel: LinkedIn has been surprisingly immune to all the negativity that social media garners. Chad: Why is that though? Joel: I think Microsoft probably is doing a good job of keeping things on lock down, which is a big reason why they haven't ... And I think just their brand of we're a professional network, we're a place for jobs and for business and people that are professionals, sort of keeps them clean. We've uncovered many sort of catfishing/dating/escort services, all kinds of stuff is going on on LinkedIn, but for some reason, they've been immune to the scrutiny that others have suffered. Chad: So I think mainly the actual community itself has policed itself to an extent, because they're afraid to share shit on LinkedIn that they would share on Twitter an Facebook, right? They're not sharing these conspiracy theories or what have you that they share everywhere else. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Because it is a professional network and they're kind of afraid more there for their job than anything else. So I think there's that. Not to mention you do have the LinkedIn police that are out there that we've talked about before where people will reach out and say, "Hey, I don't think this is appropriate for LinkedIn," and it won't be people from LinkedIn, it'll be people from your network. So I think that in itself is different, but the big thing for me though is that that was a big piece of how all of this fake shit was propagated in the last election, in 2016, is that we as individuals shared that shit, because obviously the Cambridge analytics of the world could go and target better, right? Chad: So if I could target better and I knew the different buttons to push with you, then I think I had a better likelihood to actually get you to share some shit that normally you probably wouldn't share. Joel: LinkedIn for a long time was really doing their hardest to be like Facebook. We'll add pictures, we'll add live video, we'll ... And they've done that to their benefit, the people who are posting pictures and videos aren't posting like family pictures and videos of me in the car going to work out, right? It's like videos of me at work or here's my company or hey, check out my blog post. So the content is better even though they are doing some of the functionality as Facebook as long as they don't cross that line to family photos, crazy videos, TMZ shit, and stuff, then I think they'll probably be safe from a lot of the things that plague other social networks. Chad: So here's where I think the change might start to happen, because LinkedIn just launched audience segments. Joel: Danger, Will Robinson. Danger. Chad: So before, and this is where we really got into Facebook's ass around jobs, not the other areas, because this is probably where they should have changed it, is that we are easily targeted on Facebook because of all the different info that we have and really all the different audience segments per se, right? So LinkedIn really didn't have that, but guess what's coming, kids? Joel: What's coming? Chad: Audience segments, and they're creating a partner program which aims to help marketers identify the best target groups for their site's 645 million members. Joel: Yep. Chad: They have companies like Amobee, Analect, Hootsuite, Ogilvy, and Sprinkler, who signed partnerships but once again, what made LinkedIn ... I believe what made them kind of more like this bubble where the asshole fake stuff couldn't get in, that's starting to deteriorate a little bit because of this. Now, I don't think that it's wrong. I just think that they're going to have to have safeguards in place to ensure they don't turn into a Facebook. Joel: Yeah, LinkedIn has this challenge where they want to make money from advertising, but they aren't making that much, and as an advertiser, they're super expensive versus the competition, targeting, it's complicated. They need to be more efficient, they need to be more cost effective in their advertising and a way to do that is to build this sort of marketplace where you're tracking people and things are more efficient in terms of the data that they have. Chad: Right. Joel: But they're also in effect while doing that risking crossing the line of privacy and all that other good stuff that have plagued other social networks. Chad: Yeah. Joel: In the past years. Chad: Yeah, it's smart and I feel it's dangerous as well. Joel: Dangerous, yes, yes. Chad: Danger, Will Robinson. Joel: They have smart people over there, you know? I'm sure nothing can go wrong. SFX: That is one big pile of shit. Joel: Sorry, that was a little tongue in cheek there, but ... Chad: That was nice. Yeah. Joel: Well, some other smart people over at our friends at ZapInfo, our buddy Doug Berg, shout out to him. They continue to roll out the hits there with features of the ZapInfo product, and we have talked to him at length I think off air about the whole JDPR stuff, the privacy, and how the business of sourcing people, getting content off the web, putting it in a database, marketing to it, it's going to be changing. So neither one of us was surprised last week when they introduced SMS/text messaging and Google Talk integration into their product. So now, when you search a company's about us page and use your ZapInfo extension or service instead of grabbing the content and throwing it into a database, which I believe you can still do, you can automatically text people on this page, you could call them directly through their Google Voice integration. Joel: And I think we both agree this is sort of an evolution or pivot that a lot of these sourcing tools will have to make in deciding what are we going to do after we can't grab data from the internet haphazardly? Chad: One of the things that Doug is amazing at, you don't bet against Doug Berg. You don't. First off, he was at Techies.com way back in the day before that was sold off. He's with Jobs2Web before they pivoted and added features and they were bought by SuccessFactors. Joel: 125 million, I think? (Actually 110 million - close) Chad: Yeah, it wasn't low-balled, that's for damn sure. But the thing is, don't bet against Doug Berg. Doug understands that pivots are a part of the game. I don't feel like this is a total pivot, but I do believe this is filling out the portfolio of that, of ZapInfo, and adding some connectivity that is totally necessary for recruiters. Joel: Yeah. There's a reason that when you see Doug on social media, he's always smiling, not only because of his past success but I think he's able to see around corners that a lot of us aren't able to see around, and I think that he probably sees a lot of the challenges that the people sourcing and people search business is going to have, and he's simply creating services that can survive outside of those regulations. And based on their history, there'll be more features to come and more evolution and not necessarily pivots, but he'll grow the business and if pieces of it die, he'll have other pieces to cling onto and grow. Chad: Yeah. Look for an acquisition. Joel: Look for an acquisition. Well, let's look for an add from Sovren and we'll talk about virtual restaurants and, good god, the Ladders? Shit. Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: And that dinner might actually just be coming to you instead. Joel: Wow, that's a good segue. Very nice. I find this stuff fascinating. Chad: Yes. Joel: Story out of New York Times, I believe, talks about virtual restaurants. So the basic idea is beyond an actual brick and mortar restaurant, beyond an actual food truck that goes to a downtown location or wherever, we're now having these virtual restaurants, which I assume is, I don't know, at home kitchens or you reserve kitchens, like big areas to cook food? And then DoorDash and Uber Eats basically deliver the food that you're ordering online. I think it's genius, I think that it's going to expand the food offerings and how good the food offerings are around certainly urban areas. Chad: Right. Joel: And it has employment implications as well, right? Chad: Yes, yes. You definitely have to see employees in a different light. One of the individuals who's actually, he has a restaurant but he runs other menus out of that same restaurant. He said that delivery used to be maybe a quarter of his business, now it's about 75% of the business. Joel: Wow. Chad: Food delivery apps like Uber Eats, DoorDash, and Grubhub are starting to reshape the $863 billion American restaurant industry as more people order food to eat at home and as deliveries become faster, more convenient, the apps are changing the very essence of how these individuals operate a restaurant and one, I'd like to point out, which is here in Indianapolis, it's also in Columbus, Ohio, Kansas City, and Denver, is a company called ClusterTruck. Joel: Yep. Chad: What these guys do, it's amazing, because let's say you're down in Indianapolis or you're in Columbus, Ohio or what have you, and you go to one of these bars that really they don't serve food, they might like, chips or something like that, well, you can get onto your ClusterTruck app and they have this awesome menu to go by with like, five different varieties, whether it's Asian or pizza or burgers or something like that, and you can pick what you want and they deliver it to you. Chad: Now ClusterTruck does not have a storefront, at all. Joel: Yeah. Chad: And it's genius. Now this is a little bit different because ClusterTruck has their own employees who they do the running, but this is just really a different way of what we're talking about with Grubhub and DoorDash and Uber Eats and those others. This is fucking awesome. Joel: It's a marketplace for food, right? We talk about marketplaces for people, this is the same idea, and they'll have four star ratings and they'll have reviews and you'll choose based on the market as opposed to oh yeah, I know Chili's or I know Applebee's or I know who these guys are. They'll be much more competition and that menu will be that much more expanded. I think that what's fascinating in terms of employment is you don't need service staff, you don't need a person at the front, you don't need a bartender, you don't need all the legalese, you don't need to pay the real estate taxes, you don't have to pay the leases, all these things that are holding a lot of people back from even starting a restaurant go away, and imagine what that's going to do for employment as well as just better food. Joel: I guess a lot of these waiters will just drive trucks for DoorDash and ClusterTruck and whatever else as opposed to serving people at a table, they'll serve people at their home or at the bar that they're at. Chad: Take it one step further. Was it Pizza Hut or Domino's who was going to have an automated truck who actually made the pizza on its way to deliver to you? Joel: Yeah, so I think there's a startup that makes the pizza in the truck, I don't know the name of it offhand, Domino's was testing a car that was self-driving with an oven, or like a heater, and then you had a code or your phone or whatever unlocked it, and then you took our pizza. Pizza Hut was in the news recently, they're closing a bunch of stores because no one really ... You and I remember the days of oh, Friday night, let's go get a pizza. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Like let's go to Pizza Hut and they have a salad bar. I don't think anybody does that anymore, so they're closing down a bunch of stores because that market is changing rapidly as well. Chad: Times, they are a-changing. Joel: But one thing that isn't changing is the stupidity of the Ladders. SFX: That is one big pile of shit. Joel: So you came across a great food article and were surprised at the source of the article. Chad: Yeah, I was reading through just an article, it was talking about I think like the best burgers or something like that, and I was wondering if it had Beyond Meat or the Impossible Burger, and I clicked through and then I look at the domain, and it's the Ladders. I'm like what the fuck am I doing here? Joel: Yeah, the story was you'll never guess which restaurant has America's best burger. And when you think about job opportunities, you're thinking about burgers in America. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joel: Now I can't get on them too much because I am a fan of content marketing. Chad: Yes. Joel: And everyone's sort of a job seeker and someone looking for an article on a burger or Impossible meat might also look for a job. But for me, it's like what's next? Articles about Cardi B and Justin Bieber's dating life? I don't know where you draw the line and become TMZ as opposed to a reputable job search site. Chad: Aren't they supposed to be like a six figure executive high ranking site? Why wouldn't they have what's the best Merlot or the best place to get a steak or one of those? I don't know, that just didn't make sense to me at all. It didn't seem like it was on target. Joel: Dude, they're so far from six figure jobs at this point. Their business is get as many people in here, get their data as quickly as possible, and spam the shit out of them. Who was it, Jason that talked about opting out of the Ladders emails? Chad: Yes. Joel: Remember that? It's like the Walking Dead, no matter how you try to kill them, they always come back, like that's the Ladders' business model. And if that's your business model, then yeah, get as much traffic with crappy articles as possible and make sure that those people join your database so you can spam the shit out of them. Chad: Yeah, but that's not sustainable. Let's just put that out there. SFX: That is one big pile of shit. Joel: And with that ... Chad: We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to ... What's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing, just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know, and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one, cheddar, bleu, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss, so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any who, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com, just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out. Tim Sackett: Hi, I'm Tim Sackett and you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm not sure why you are, but hey, you do you. #Google #StepStone #CollegeRecruiter #NomadHealth #Indeed #Syft #LinkedIn #Facebook #ZAPinfo #text #Marketplace

Artificial intelligence (#AI) is running amok! Someone has to police this out-of-control state of technology. Enter Miranda Bogen, a Senior Policy Analyst who focuses on the social and policy implications of machine learning and artificial intelligence, and the effect of technology platforms on civil and human rights. Plus, she really classes up the joint. Enjoy this Talroo exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies find talent in the largest minority community in the world – people with disabilities.​ Chad: Talroo is focused on predicting, optimizing, and delivering talent directly to your e-mail or ATS. Joel: So it's totally data driven talent attraction, which means the Talroo platform enables recruiters to reach the right talent at the right time, and at the right price. Chad: Guess what the best part is? Joel: Let me take a shot here, you only pay for the candidates Talroo delivers? Chad: Holy shit, okay, so you've heard this before. So if you're out there listening, in podcast land, and you are attracting the wrong candidates, and we know you are, or you feel like you're in a recruiting hamster wheel and there's just nowhere to go, right, you can go to talroo.com/attract, again, that's talroo.com/attract, and learn how Talroo can you get you better candidates for less cash. Joel: Or, just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Talroo logo. I'm all about the simple. Chad: You are a simple man. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash, and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Friday, Friday, Friday. Feeling spunky. TGIF. Chad: More than spunk happening today my friend, today, today it's going to be incredibly spunky. We're going to be talking about AI, AI, AI, and some policy with Miranda Bogen, who is Senior Policy Analyst at upturn.org. Joel: The trend of people much smarter than us continues as guests on our show. Chad: That's not hard to do by the way. She's also co-chair of the fair, transparent, and accountable AI Expert Group. Oh my God. Joel: Oh my God, we're in trouble. Chad: So Miranda, before you jump into Upturn and this crazy Expert Group, just so everybody knows out there, I heard Miranda on a podcast, I don't know, about a year or so ago, I said, "Yeah, she sounds pretty smart." Then I saw her on stage at Jobg8 in Denver, and I'm like, "The listeners need to hear from Miranda." So Miranda? Joel: I'm glad you said Job8 and not some other stage. Chad: No, you weren't on the stage Joel. So Miranda, welcome to HRs Most Dangerous Podcast, what did I miss in the intro? Fill in some gaps for the listeners. Miranda: Well, thanks for having me first of all. Yeah, you got some of the high points recently, but just to give a little bit of background. I work at Upturn, which is a non-profit organization based in Washington DC, and our mission is to promote equity and justice in the design governance and use of digital technology. Chad: Wow. Miranda: So that kind of means everything, right? Joel: Yes, damn. Miranda: Hiring tech, recruitment tech is just one part of what I do, but we also study things like Facebook, social media platforms, police technology, credit scoring, anything where technology is intersecting with people's lives, and especially when it intersects with things like civil rights. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah, and even though it has nothing to do with the content of our show, the "hidden world of payday loans," which is a blog post on your site, I'd love to dig into that at some point. Maybe as a bonus at the end. Chad: Yeah, maybe. Joel: Hidden world of payday loans. Chad: So Upturn, on the website says, "We drive policy outcomes, spark debate through reports, scholarly articles, regulatory comments, direct advocacy," I mean, you do a lot of stuff. Conferences, workshops, so on and so forth. Are you guys a lobby group? Miranda: No, we're a research and advocacy group, we're also only seven people. Chad: Wow. Miranda: So we do, do a lot, but we really kind of come in where we're most needed. And often times that's just explaining how technology works to other advocacy groups, the policy makers, to journalists, so that when they're talking about it they have a sense of what's really happening, and they can make sure that the policies they're thinking about are actually going solve some of the problems that we're seeing. Chad: How did it start? Miranda: So we actually started as a consulting group. My two bosses founded it about eight years ago, out of grad school to help again, sort of other advocacy groups, foundations, philanthropies, really get a handle around technology, which was eight years ago still newer than it feels now, and now it's really ubiquitous. But at the time, it was like, "What is going on here, how is technology changing civil rights? How is it changing policing? How is it changing how people have access to opportunity?" And people needed help, so they founded this consulting firm. I joined when we were still a consulting firm, but we decided to switch over to become a non-profit about two years ago, because we wanted to be mission driven. We wanted to go after issues that we were seeing, and kind of scope out some of these gnarly policy issues before other folks were maybe thinking about them. But then work together with other national and local civil rights groups, global policy groups to help direct policy efforts in the right places. Joel: So here's a soft ball for you, give us your definition of AI. Miranda: That's a- Joel: Aha. Miranda: It's a trick soft ball question. If you read any paper or article about AI, the very first line is always like, "There's no definition of AI." When we talk about AI... We actually don't use AI to frame our work, because we don't find it a super helpful frame, because it means everything and nothing. Often what we're really talking about is machine learning, uses of data, Chad: Algorithms. Miranda: ... data analysis, and mostly when we talk about AI, we're mostly talking about just finding patterns in data. So that's what I think of when I think about AI. Chad: Well, that being said, one of the things that really caught me, and I think it caught the entire audience in Denver, is when you talked about Netflix and their algorithm, and how the algorithm picked thumbnail pictures to be able to attract viewers to some of the movies. Can you talk a little bit about that research, or at least some of the information that you provided on stage about Netflix and how that worked? Miranda: Yeah, this was a crazy story. It wasn't something we were working on directly, but I was scrolling through Twitter one day, and saw that people were talking about this situation where a woman was a blogger, or a podcaster, I can't remember. She was noticing that... She was scrolling through Netflix, now this woman was black, and she was scrolling through Netflix, and she was seeing that the little thumbnails that she was being shown for the movies, were featuring actors from the movies who were also black, but they weren't the main actors in those movies. And she was like, "What's up, I tried to watch these movies, and the characters that I was shown in the thumbnails barely have any lines at all? Why am I being misled?" Chad: Wow. Miranda: And so she started asking around, and asking were other people seeing the same thing, and she heard that they were. Other folks who were black were seeing these supporting actors who maybe didn't play a big role, but they were being featured in the thumbnails, while some white users were saying, "No, I'm seeing the main actors." And that was kind of crazy, because Netflix in follow up articles that journalists were writing about Netflix, made a statement saying, "We don't collect race. That's not something we're using to personalize the experience." Chad: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. How on in the hell was this happening then? Miranda: Yeah, so it's really surprising. So many times you hear, "We're not collecting any sensitive data, we're just giving people what you want." And so that was really interesting to me, so I wanted to figure out what was going on. So it turned out that a year or so ago, Netflix introduced this new feature, where it would dynamically pull images from movies, TV shows that were showing, it would kind of dynamically pick out compelling images, and it would show them to people. And it would show you the image that it thought you were most likely to click on to watch that movie. So if you like romantic comedies, then if a movie had a scene of sort of two romantic leads, it might show you that. But if you like just straight up comedy, then it might show you an actor who's also a comedian, even if that's the same movie. So different people would be seeing different images in these previews, even if it was for the same movie. Miranda: So what was happening here in this case was, Netflix was predicting that the black users were maybe more likely to click on these movies or shows, when they were shown these black supporting actors, even if they weren't main characters in that movie, and it was just learning that through behavior. It wasn't saying like, "Oh look, this user is... has these demographics, therefore, show them this image." It was all super dynamic, all just learning from people's clicks, and their online behavior. And the thing about AI, and about when you have all this data at your disposal, is you'll end up finding patterns that reflect people's personal characteristics, even if you don't collect them explicitly, or put any sort of label on them. Joel: So Miranda, does your organization take a stance on these issues, or do you just present them as information? Like, are you saying AI is bad because of this, or are you just saying, "Hey, we've studied this and here are our findings?" Miranda: I don't think we have a position on what Netflix did per se, but the issues I think, and why I was talking at Jobg8, and why I've been talking on these other podcasts is, that same thing is happening in areas like recruiting, because the technology that's underneath Netflix, is the same technology that's underneath any website that says, "We're going to recommend you things that you like," or, "We're going to find you the best people." They're all just called recommender systems, and if we saw that Netflix was working in this way, I was like, "Oh, man, this is a problem. This is probably happening on these other sites that are much more important to how people are finding jobs and livelihood." Joel: So you do take a position that this is a bad thing? Miranda: It's bad if we don't know it's happening, and it's going rogue, and it's ending up directing... it's ending up having the same effect as traditional discrimination in the job marketers, which is what our fear is. Joel: Got you. Well, let's jump into Facebook. I know that you are well aware, and our listeners are too, that Facebook was presenting targeted advertising for jobs in relation to age, sex, education, all kinds of different ways that Facebook targets. Talk about that, and then talk about sort of what your feeling are with Facebook's solution to this, do you feel like it's a good solution, a competent solution? Or, do you feel like it's more of putting lipstick on a pig? Miranda: Yeah, so this is something I've been working on for a couple of years now, Facebook ad targeting, ad discrimination. We were involved in some of the earliest conversations of civil rights groups that kind of pointed out the fact that advertisers could target ads based on gender, age, or what they called ethnic or multi-cultural affinity at the time, which was sort of a proxy for race. And then there were a bunch of lawsuits that were filed against Facebook, and part of the... all those lawsuits settled. And what Facebook agreed to was for job ads, but also for housing ads, and credit ads, was to take out some of those targeting categories to say, "Advertisers, you no longer have the tools easily at your disposal to exclude people from seeing opportunities. Or you can no longer..."- Chad: It's discriminating. Miranda: Yeah, "you can no longer discriminate," right? That's certainly something we support. But, when we were involved in these conversations, we supported all the efforts to make sure that advertisers themselves weren't discriminating, but Facebook is kind of like Netflix, it wants to show people what they "want to see." Ads that they will like. And so, we started getting into this. We started to do some research and say, "What if an advertiser didn't target an ad at all, or they just targeted it to anyone in the US?" Maybe it's a job, they don't really care who comes to work for them, they just wanted to get it shown to as many people as possible. I know that's not a realistic situation, but just hypothetically. Miranda: So we ran a couple of job ads, and we didn't target them at all, and we used Facebook's own tools to see who they ended up getting shown to by gender, and by age. And for example, we ran a job ad for a nanny position, we didn't target it at all, and it ended up being shown to over 90% women, just because... Yeah. So the same thing was happening, and we didn't target it to women, but Facebook was making this prediction that women would be more interested in that type of job. And maybe that was true, maybe women were more likely to click on that job ad. Most childcare providers are women, but is that any different from an advertiser saying, only show this to women, just because the platform is using AI to predict whose most likely to click? Chad: Nope. Miranda: And so that really floored us, and made us think that the remedy for all these lawsuits, and just taking away the targeting categories wasn't really solving the problem. It's certainly preventing bad actors, but there's more to the story here. And so there's a ton of work to do in thinking about what do we do when it's the algorithm that's biased here, and we can't even see it most of the time. Chad: Well, in the research also you talked about cashier positions, the audience was 85% women, and for taxi companies, 75% black. So here's the thing from my standpoint, I think that Facebook neutering their jobs platform, was a huge mistake, first and foremost for companies who do want to target individuals with disabilities, or different segments of the population. They should be able to do that. The thing is, we have government agencies that enforce if you're doing good or bad, right? EOC, OFCCP, that's what they're there for, right? Miranda: Exactly. Chad: Not taking away tools. So if you have a tool that is actually helping you get more individuals with disabilities, or female engineers through the door, if they want to call that discriminating against the white man, well, then that's great, but that's for the OFCCP and the EOC to handle, not Facebook. Miranda: I mean we think... So the technology platforms do have a role to play. They can make some important policy decisions, they can prevent some bad things from happening, but I think in this case it's one where there is the whole infrastructure of regulation. There are employers out there who do want to do the right thing, who want to reach out. There are employers out there who are required to do affirmative outreach to underrepresented groups, and so now on Facebook with those categories getting taken away, it's going to be harder for them to do that. And more over, it's only solving that one case where an employer or an advertiser is choosing to do a bad thing, but we still could have the same effect, right? Miranda: So we still have a lot of problems here. And it's really tricky, because one of the problems is that, there's not really a good way for a regulator to see how an advertiser is targeting on Facebook. That's not something that's public. We've been pushing for that. We think that, that should be something that the regulators are able to look into if they suspect that an employer's maybe doing the wrong thing here. But taking them away, it solves a little bit, but there's still a lot of problems. Joel: Let's get into facial recognition for a second. You're probably aware that Illinois has either introduced or implemented a new law, where if you're interviewing someone via video and using AI tools to do that, you have to let them know that. Recently on Facebook the face app where it ages you 20, 30, 40 years, is getting some backlash as some conspiratorial facial recognition Russian platform. What are your thoughts on facial recognition, particularly as it pertains to employment and people finding jobs? Miranda: I think a lot of the concerns that organizations we work with have around this, are that, is there really any true connection between facial expressions and your ability to do a job? Chad: Yeah. Miranda: That's the concern here. There are other concerns about facial recognition, and privacy, and surveillance, but in this case, it's like, "What does the way my face expresses when I talk, have to do with whether I can go on and be successful at a job?" The fear is that, the way that these systems work is, a company might say, "Here are our top performers, let's build an AI model, let's build an algorithm to find people who are going to be successful like them." And if they're just looking at their facial expressions, and then they move that over and start to use it to analyze applicants, then if the initial pool of successful people was homogenous, that, that same sort of demographic preference will end up getting injected into the hiring process. But it will be really hard to detect, again, because AI can be complicated. It can be hard to tell why a system is making a certain decision. Miranda: And so I think when we think about facial recognition, but really what we're talking about here is facial analysis, the question is, what's it being used for? Is there any theoretical connection between this and the thing we're trying to predict. The Illinois bill is interesting, because there is a problem that people don't necessarily know that they're being assessed when they apply for a job by some sort of algorithm. Chad: Right. Miranda: And when they don't know that, if they feel that they've been mischaracterized, they don't know how to maybe challenge that decision, like they could a normal hiring decision to say, "I think this person was biased against me." The Illinois bill tries to remedy that by saying, "Let's just tell them," right? But if you're applying for a job, and you get told, "Oh, by the way, we're going to use facial analysis, we're going to use AI to judge you, how do you feel about that, agree, disagree," and you want that job, and you need that job, is that really super effective? You're not really in a powerful position there as a job applicant. So usually in that type of situation, we'll be thinking about what are the power dynamics here? Is this a real remedy? Miranda: And so really, I think the laws that are more effective in dealing with AI and bias here, are actually the civil rights laws. Employers can't discriminate in real circumstances. But to enforce those laws, you do need to have more visibility in to what employers are using what tools, and you need to have a sense of who applied and who ended up getting the job regardless of what application process they used, or what AI they used as part of that process. Joel: So I think some of the push back on that would be, "We can tell if someone's lying, or there's a potential that there's some falsehoods, by their facial gestures and recognitions." And voice as well, do you think there is some value to that part of it, or no? Miranda: Our understanding is that the technology is nowhere near to being able to do that. There are a lot of claims out there, there's a lot of great marketing about how AI can do this, but- Joel: There are. Miranda: ... if they're training the AI on a certain group of people, it might not work as well on another group of people. So some colleagues of ours at MIT did research saying that... finding that facial recognition software, that was just trying to tell what gender a person was, it worked great on white men, and it worked much worse on women of color, just because the data it was trained on, were probably mostly people with lighter skin. And so there's not a great sense that this technology is up to par to actually do the things that they're claiming it can do, especially when it comes to emotion detection, and lie detection. That's so different by culture, by individual. All it's doing is stereotyping basically. Chad: Yeah. And if your baseline is that of a white male, or an individual who is calm during an interview, if somebody has anxiety, or maybe that's a part of a disability that they might have, and they don't meet the baseline, then automatically they're kicked to the curb. Miranda: Exactly. Disability's a hard one too, because people building this technology, some of them are trying to do interesting things to kind of debias their models to make sure that it's not harming women, or not harming people with different skin colors, or different ethnicities, but with disability you might not even know who in your sort of training group of people, has a disability. And the people who are interviewing, might not choose to disclose it. So you won't know whether to make sure that it's calibrated to account for that, and that's an accommodation issue. That could really harming people with invisible disabilities, or ones that manifest that a computer could see, but maybe a human would overlook, or it wouldn't be troublesome in a normal interview. The computers can pick up on really subtle things. Chad: Yeah. So back in May, you panned all the ways hiring algorithms can introduce bias, which landed in the Harvard Business Review. A little rag obviously. In the article you talk about how predictive tech, or programmatic helps advertise jobs today, and how that in effect, could really be a huge problem and introduce bias right out of the gate. So a job is posted, this algorithm goes out and says, "Well, we need to target these types of individuals, so we're going to go to these different types of sites," can you talk about that? Miranda: Yeah. So when most people talk about bias and hiring algorithms, they're talking about algorithms that are looking at resumes, or algorithms that are doing these video interviews, or doing personality tests, or things like that. Chad: Right. Miranda: But that's not the only place that algorithms are being used in the hiring process. So much of recruitment is moving into that top of the funnel part of the process. Trying to build the right candidate pool, so that the people who come in the door are already maybe closer to the right people, and so recruiters or hiring managers aren't wasting their time. They get a ton of applicants, they want to spend their time on the right people, it's better if the right people come in the door in the first place. And so programmatic ads or any ads that are on platforms that are personalized, or saying, "We're going to show the right ad to the right person," what they're doing is all the data they really have, is what people have clicked on in the past. Miranda: And so if they're saying the right person, all it means is people who've kind of indicated interest in this type of job in the past, and people like those people. That's the data it has to work with. But what people search for, the types of jobs people search for, the types of jobs people believe they're qualified for, and maybe they go in to click on, that has such a deep reflection of society. And what I talked about in my talk at Jobg8, there's deep occupational segregation, at least in the US and definitely other places. And so looking at jobs people have already had, jobs they think they might want, jobs they think they're qualified for, that's going to reflect these deep divisions. And so just honing in on the people who are most likely to apply for a job, that's going to end up reflecting these social divisions, and reinforcing those disparities. And then people don't even know that there are other jobs out there that they could apply for. Miranda: And maybe it's not that it would prevent someone from going to a company, and looking at their job site, and applying for a job, but if you're bombarded over and over again with ads from a certain company or for a certain type of job, and people from another social group don't see those, you're going to be more likely to apply for that job than they are, and then that's going to reinforce across society. And someone's benefiting from that, and other people are being hurt by it. Chad: Yeah. And if you don't have control of the algorithm or targeting, like we were talking about with Facebook, then that could obviously adversely impact the candidates who are coming into your pipeline, versus having more ability to target the types of individuals, because you know what your talent pool looks like right now. So if you want to be more diversified, you need that control. So that being said, talking about less control, can you tell us a little bit about ZipRecruiter? How do you feel about ZipRecruiter, because they have this awesome algorithm, and how do you think it works? Does it work like Netflix? Miranda: Yeah. So ZipRecruiter and any other sort of personalized job board, like I said earlier, these technologies are all grounded in this basic thing called a recommender system. And the way that works is, it says, when somebody new joins up, the platform has to figure out, "All right, they're new, we don't know much about them. We have to figure out what to show them, and then as they start to interact on site, we can learn more about what they want to see." So it's looking at things you like. So if I go on to ZipRecruiter, or another website and say like, "I really like marketing jobs, I'm going to click on a lot of those, maybe start applying to some," it's going to show me more marketing jobs. Miranda: And then the way these systems often work is, I'm doing that, I have a certain pattern of behavior on the site, if other people are kind of behaving in a similar way, it might start showing things that I've liked to them, because it sees that we're similar, maybe we'll like some of the same things. But also on ZipRecruiter at least, and on some other platforms, I'm sure other folks are building this, the employers also, the hiring managers or recruiters, they can kind of start to thumbs up candidates, or thumbs down them, and it learns those preferences as well. And it starts showing jobs to the candidates that most closely resemble the ones they've already liked. Miranda: And so all these patterns, in the same way that, that story happened with Netflix, even if the platform isn't collecting gender, isn't collecting race, those things are probably going to be correlated with how people behave on the site. It's just with Netflix. And that might end up determining what jobs they see, what jobs they don't see, and kind of guiding people towards a certain type of job that might be... it might be relevant, but it might be hiding from them other things they're also... could be interested in or qualified for. Something like that could end up guiding women for instance to, maybe middle level, lower level jobs, whereas men tend to be more confident in what they're clicking on, what they're applying for. They think can apply even if they don't have all the qualifications, and so they might start getting... shown more senior jobs, higher paying jobs, just because that's the behavior that's being reflected. And it can be super invisible. Miranda: If you're not collecting information about demographics, you might not know what your candidate pool looks like until they officially apply for a job, and by that point it might be a little too late to really do the proactive outreach to underrepresented groups. Chad: How do I get a female to click on my damn job? I mean, that's the thing, it's companies are like, "Shit, I'm putting jobs out there, and females are just... they're not clicking on as much as males," because you know us dumb males, we only fit about 50% of the requirements, but, "Oh hell, why not?" Where a female's like, "Yeah, I'm not meeting 100%, so I'm not going to." What does a company have to do to be able to actually, because there's a huge behavior difference there. What do they have to do at that point? Miranda: Well, so there's a couple of interesting tools out there that are actually using AI to get suggestions about how to change the wording of jobs, so that there won't be a gender bias. And the data they're using, is looking at people who've applied before and saying, "If you use these words instead of these words, we actually predict that more women will apply to your job." So that's one thing that they can do, is really looking at how those jobs are written. Miranda: And then another thing I think goes back to the question about job ads, and targeting. It might be tricky to really just sort of naturally see that the demographics of people applying are balanced, or that you're getting the pool that you want, so you might have to do some proactive outreach. And then having targeting options, might be the only way to really get your job in front of folks that aren't applying as organically at the same rate. And so we think there is a role to play for affirmative outreach to underrepresented groups, as long as someone's out there making sure that no-ones abusing that. Joel: One of the more fascinating products to come out in the recruiting industry in a while, is a robot called Tengai Unbiased. I don't know if you're familiar with Tengai or not, but the basic concept is, you have this essentially head of a robot that projects a face, and interviews candidates in an unbiased fashion per their marketing material. And the robot basically ranks candidates based solely on what their answers are, and what their skills are. Now obviously, bias comes into it once a human looks at the ranking, and then decides maybe from there who they want to hire. Although, in a perfect world I guess, the robot would actually hire the people, and humans wouldn't even have to get involved. What are sort of your thoughts on this futuristic view of how hiring could happen in the future? Miranda: I think it really doesn't matter if there's a robot that's doing this automatic interviewing, or if it's just sort of a piece of software, or a chat bot, right? The robot's a little... It's sticky for PR, but what I think about, what I find interesting is, how is it making those decisions? How is it deciding how to rank people? Or, if we get to a point where they're making actual hiring decisions, what's the cut off score? What are they looking at? How is it trained, right? And even though... There definitely is a problem with unconscious human bias in hiring, so any sort of standardized process is going to help mitigate some of that. Miranda: But the problem with AI, with robots doing this is, generally they need to learn from something. They need to learn what type of candidates a company likes. So a vendor or the company that's building an algorithm, a model, what they need is a current set of employees who have done really well, who are successful candidates. They use that to determine what makes a good candidate, and then they judge new applicants with that model in mind, right? The problem is that, so many companies today still have a problem with diversity and inclusion, and so the people they see as the most successful might still reflect this narrow conception of what success looks like. And it might homogenous, it might be explicitly biased, and so those decisions, even if they're be a robot, they might be consistent, but we don't know if they're unbiased unless we're looking at the difference between who would've gotten a job before, and then whose getting a job now. Miranda: I think that's what really matters when it comes to automated hiring decisions. It's not the interface of the program, it's really is this helping a company mitigate the unconscious biases of their own recruiters, and is that having an effect. And sometimes we don't necessarily have the data from the civil society side, from the public to see that right away. Regulators would, companies have to report that. But we haven't solved diversity and inclusion within companies, so if we're using current workforces to define what success looks like, we're going to lock ourselves in the present if not the past. So how do we make sure that we recognize that we don't have it all figured out now, we don't even know what successful employees look like half the time. It's very subjective. So how do we make sure that those subjective decisions don't get calcified into computers? Chad: Well, Miranda, unfortunately our time is over. Joel: Thanks Miranda, that was awesome. Chad: We had a blast, and don't be surprised if we call you back to have more discussions around this specific topic, because this is popping up, it's not going away, and we're glad that Upturn and yourself are actually around. So thank you so much, and we out. Joel: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors, because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #AI #bias #Robots #MachineLearning #Netflix #ZipRecruiter

Think Glassdoor has a monopoly on employee reviews? Think again. Fairygodboss is one of the hottest startups hoping to help women breakthrough the glass ceiling and inspire companies to be more transparent. In this podcast, the boys explore the current state of the business with co-founder Romy Newman, as well as reveal how employers can make themselves a more diverse and inclusive place. Enjoy this Nexxt exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire. Tim Sackett: Hi, I'm Tim Sackett, and you're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm not sure why you are, but hey, you do you. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: All right, all right, all right. It's take two, with Fairygodboss, thanks to some technical glitches, Romy Newman, president and co-founder of Fairygodboss, thanks for coming. Romy: Yeah, they say you never get a second chance to make a first impression, but here it is. Joel: But so a little bit of an intro, you're president and co-founder of Fairygodboss. Romy: That's right. Joel: You've had experience working at Google, Wall Street Journal, and Estee Lauder, a few small companies no one has ever heard of, and have college degrees from Yale, a little school in the Ivy League, and Northwestern- Chad: Hello. Joel: ... Kellogg School of Business. So you're added to the long list of people who are way smarter than we are, so welcome to the show. What did I miss? Romy: What did you miss? Let's see, I do run Fairygodboss, which I'm really proud to say has now over 50 employees out of New York City. Chad: Nice. Joel: Whoa. Romy: We are the largest career community for women, and we're used by about four million women every month to connect, share advice, research information and job reviews, and apply to jobs. Joel: Are you global yet, or are those all domestic, North American traffic? Romy: So about 20% of our traffic now is global, coming particularly- Joel: Oh, wow. Romy: ... from two markets, the UK and India. So that's really exciting. Romy: Yeah, and I have to just say that I'm also extremely proud that we work with over 100 major Fortune 500 U.S. companies, including companies like Apple and Microsoft and Bank of America and Goldman Sachs and Unilever and General Motors and IBM, and we help all those companies attract great female job seekers, and position those companies to be the types of places that women will want to apply to jobs at. Joel: Now one thing you failed to mention is you have had 14 million in funding, including 10 million in fusion earlier this year. Romy: That's how we have 50 employees, yes. Joel: Yeah, exactly. So my point was, I was going to ask you where the money's going but I assume it's hiring people. Romy: And snacks, [crosstalk 00:02:41]. Joel: Are you hiring engineers, sales people? What else is the money going toward? Romy: So we have an amazing engineering team, and I have to say we have an extraordinary CTO who has a really fabulous vision for our product. So for example, some of the major improvements we've made to our product over time have been to build a customized, personalize feed for our users, so when you come in ... Our goal is to become a daily habit for career-minded women. And so now our users when they come to our site are having a personalized experience based on the topics they've participated in before, based on jobs they've researched before, based on where they live, based on connections they have. Romy: So not unlike a feed in Linkedin or Facebook, we've got a fabulous feed as our landing page for locked in users. We also have introduced in the last few months kind of smart job suggesting, so both within our tool and then via email, job seekers receive suggested jobs based on their search history. Joel: And do you guys have apps or not? Romy: Not yet. Joel: Is that coming? Romy: Let's put it this way, we haven't started working on it yet, but it's certainly something that comes up, you know, about every 30 minutes in conversation. Chad: I'm sure, I'm sure. There are plenty of things you can do. When you start to get money, it's like oh, we could do all this stuff. Well, in some cases it's let's focus on the core. And that being said, you guys have a very unique story of how you started and where you started, and I think it's unique from the standpoint of most women went through what your co-founder went through, but she took action to be able to create Fairygodboss. So tell us about that. Romy: Yes. So my co-founder and I met at the Wall Street Journal. We actually both reported to the same manager for a while, but we actually did not know each other very well. I think it's important to say that I had a fabulous experience at the Wall Street Journal. I had managers, male and female, who really supported me in every way, and I have no complaints to register. I think my co-founder had a less positive experience that was not specifically based on gender, but she was very senior and there was a big management shake up and she'd been a top performer, but then out of nowhere, she lost her job. Romy: So the issue was that when that happened, she was two months pregnant with her second child. So nobody knew she was pregnant, she wasn't telling anyone, she wasn't showing, but it meant that she was immediately going to have to embark on a job search, during which it would be obvious that she was pregnant and she would be taking a job and leaving on maternity leave almost right after. So it put into really sharp focus for her that she wanted to be able to know before even setting foot in a company for an interview, before even sending in an application, she wanted to know is this a company that really supports women in the workplace? Is this a company that will support me while I go out on maternity leave? Is this a company that will let me be a senior manager and a mother at the same time? Is this a company where there's evidence of other women that are willing to go on the record and say, "I had a great experience here"? Romy: And so as you know, the world has become a real job seeker's market, job seekers have a ton of power, they have a ton of information. But the information that was available to them prior to introducing Fairygodboss didn't answer the very specific set of questions that Georgine, my co-founder, as a female job seeker had. How does this company treat women? Can I expect to have similar opportunities? What will my success look like here? And so that's where I say she's the real entrepreneur because she saw white space and she said, "Instead of finding a job, I'm going to build this solution." And that was four years ago. Romy: She approached me to be her co-founder, and it just seemed too exciting not to try and so here we are. Chad: That's awesome. A platformer company formed out of need and, I would say, you have 4 million women every month coming back to the site. Now you talk about obviously I would think some of the topics would be not being mommy tracked, salary, discrepancies. What else are women coming to the site for? Are they coming for resources, or are you guys actually providing advocacy for them as well? Joel: Jobs. Romy: Yeah, jobs. We are a platform, so we have this amazing community of engaged women, and at varying ranges of experience from in college all the way up through the ranks to senior level. We have a lot of career coaches. So a main use for our platform is a community member coming on and posting, and I think a real differentiator of our community compared to a LinkedIn or a Facebook is that our members have an opportunity to post anonymously. So for example, a member could come and post, "I've just been promoted and I found out that a man who reports to me is making more than I make as his manager. What do I do about this?" Romy: And we don't necessarily answer that question, but someone from our community will jump in right away and answer it. We had a really kind of robust and difficult conversation going back and forth this week about a woman who had been out of the workforce for 15 years and she wanted to come back in, but she was being told she wouldn't be able to come in at the same level that she'd left at. And there was a real intense debate among the community about whether she should accept a step down in the title or whether she should fight to maintain the same title. Chad: Shouldn't that be an early warning system to these companies? Because this is a community that's having a discussion around their brand in many cases. Romy: So in these discussions, they often don't ... There's not a company associated with it. So there's two ways to contribute content to our platform for uses. One is just sort of general discussion, and then yes, you're absolutely right, in our company reviews, individuals anonymously assess companies, and it absolutely is an early warning system, and should be monitored just as companies monitor Glassdoor. And what's interesting is that a differentiator I think for Glassdoor is, I think we surveyed our users and the main reason women are leaving reviews is to help each other. I think there's this feeling that if we can empower each other with information, there's real opportunity to just support women. The concept of our name is all about women helping women and the idea is that you can simply help women advance in the workplace just by sharing a little bit about your experience. Romy: And the idea is that so now, women are sharing reviews on our site to help each other versus just critiquing management. Joel: So I'm glad you mentioned the name, and I'm always curious about how companies come to a name, what other names were on the table that they scrapped. Is there a story behind Fairygodboss, because it is a fairy unique name? Romy: Absolutely. So when we launched, we were looking for a name that did a few different things. Number one, we were trying to communicate that any member of the community was somebody helping women. Number two, we wanted something that wasn't very serious, because we knew that this topic can get so serious, but we wanted to note that this is a place you can have serious conversation, but also it's not academic. It's not going to be a slog to participate. And then the third thing was we wanted something that, we always knew that SEO was going to be a major source of traffic for us, and it is, and we wanted something that was really unique in terms of a URL, and so that's how we chose Fairygodboss. Joel: And you also mentioned Glassdoor, and I'm curious because you are in a very competitive space. You're in a space where you could argue you already have Coke and Pepsi, and at this point you're hoping to be Dr. Pepper or Fanta. Is that a fair argument, or are you looking to be something bigger? Are you looking to take on Glassdoor or just be a nice little niche here for the female demographic? Romy: I'm trying to work on my soft drink analogy to play back to you. Chad: Tab. Romy: But I think we may want to be coconut water. But essentially, here's my view. There are fabulous generalist sites out there, right? Indeed, Glassdoor, and Linkedin, to name a few. But I don't think ... Our research indicates extensively, and LinkedIn's research backs this up as well, men and women do not represent themselves the same way in the job search, and they don't look for jobs the same way. Chad: Right. Romy: And so with that in mind, there is real room and opportunity for an environment that is tailored for women both from the employer side and certainly from the user side. So I think there's a real future for us to coexist. We never would say to a company, "Buy us instead of Glassdoor." That would not be a winning strategy. But if you are concerned about increasing diversity in your workforce, you should buy us in addition to Glassdoor. Chad: So recently, Facebook has pretty much neutered their targeting, which means from a job standpoint, you can't actually target females. If you want to look for female engineers because your current talent pool is very male-heavy, you can't start to target females within the Facebook platform. Two things- Romy: With a job description, right? Chad: Yeah, with a job description. So two things, first and foremost, do you think that was the right decision made by Facebook, number one, and number two, is that just a great opportunity for Fairygodboss, because now they can come to you because you are the target demo? Romy: Yes. So number one, I don't think it was a bad decision, but I think it was made on the slippery slope argument premise, right? It's not that per se a company is wrong to say, "I would like more women to apply for this job." But I think there's all kinds of bad directions that could go in, too, and I think it was just sort of to nip it in the bud. For us, yeah, it presents tremendous opportunity. I think particularly because I believe the way job opportunities are communicated and the way company benefits, and I don't just mean healthcare benefits, but the features and benefits of why someone would want to work at a company, need to be communicated differently to female job seekers. And we are experts in that, and we have a platform that already engages four million women a month. Romy: So certainly, it is a tremendous opportunity for us. We also lean heavily on Facebook and Instagram, but rather than using demographic targeting, we really focus on creating content that we think appeals to the right audiences, telling the stories that we think will resonate with them, and then allowing the audience to self-select. So for example, a person who's interested in reading a story about why this woman thrives at the company is likely to be a female professional woman and maybe even a female job seeker, and that's how we can increase our reach beyond even our existing users for our partner companies. Chad: So do you do that for companies? So they obviously come to you because you can help them within your current community, but also externally within their own website and other sites, like the LinkedIns or the Indeeds or what have you. Do you help them more in a holistic way or is it just really focused on the platform that you guys have at Fairygodboss? Romy: No, I view our key value to a company is that we help make more women want to think about working at that company. We help more women consider a role at that company, and so we do that predominantly through content. We have an amazing editorial team. We produce seven original editorial articles a day about things like how to ask your boss for a raise or there was one I saw today about how to make yourself the most well-liked person in the office. Great content, and sometimes it will be like do you really have to wear pantyhose? It's all over the map. Romy: But for our partners, we put this editorial team to work and they create content about our partners, and this team has spent a lot of time doing data-driven analysis on the types of content that resonate with the types of populations our companies are trying to reach. And so it's a real added value benefit that we provide for our partners and then we use that, yes, we put that content in all of our communications and in our daily emails, but then of course it goes out on our social channels as well. Joel: You mentioned SEO being a major part of your driver of traffic, and I'm curious because you've also said in a previous discussion that your site is roughly 5% men, but obviously Google is not gender-specific in terms of searches. Romy: Right. Joel: So are you seeing a lot of searches for accounting jobs for women or what's it like for a woman to work at IBM? What are some of the queries that are driving such search traffic that isn't resulting in just a bunch of bounces because half of them are male? Romy: Well, so first of all, I do believe some of the content cuts across, like one of our top searched terms is resume templates, so I think there's no reason somebody should bounce from ... It's still good advice, regardless of your gender. Joel: Got you. Romy: But best companies for women by far leads our search. There are things like gender discrimination or gender equality that drives search traffic for us as well, so you're right that we don't know that it's necessarily women, but they're terms that women are more likely to search, and again, our awesome editorial team does research on which terms women research the most. And particularly professional job seeking women, and they write about those terms. Joel: It's commercial time. Chad: Okay, so we've already established texting is probably the best way to connect with candidates, right? Plus, Nexxt stats show 73% of professionals are open to receiving job opportunities via text, and with a 99% delivery rate. You cannot go wrong. Those are two big reasons why you gotta love Text2Hire from Nexxt. That's right, Text2Hire from Nexxt, with the double X, not the triple X. Nexxt has over eight million candidates who have opted into receive jobs via text, and you and your clients need qualified candidates. Nexxt can help you find and target qualified candidates who have opted in for job opportunities via text, and in today's competitive market, you need an edge to reach qualified candidates faster. You need Text2Hire from Nexxt. Just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Nexxt logo to learn more about how you can gain a competitive edge with opt-in texting. Text2Hire from Nexxt: it just makes sense. Chad: It's show time. Joel: We had a topic on this week's show in regards to sort of the growth of TikTok, obviously Snapchat is very prevalent, particularly with younger folks, and we talked specifically on the show about accounts where people were, via video, talking about what it was like to work at certain companies. In the case of our show, we talked about a Walmart worker who had an actual account called Tom at Walmart or something where he would just talk about the company, particularly as an employer. And I'm curious, the review space has been around for roughly 10 to 15 years, and it's primarily been dominated by text, right? People type in what it's like to work at such and such company. Joel: But it seems like the trend, particularly with young people, is moving toward more, "Hey, I'm going to take a short form video about what it's like to work at this company." So I'm curious, how do you and Glassdoor and others sort of evolve into this new world of video versus text-based reviewing? Romy: I haven't given it a ton of thought, it's a really smart idea. I'm going to slap my co-founder right now. And by the way, I want you to know that I learned what TikTok was yesterday from my son's best friend. Joel: There you go. Chad: When you're in a long layover at an airport with Joel Cheesman, that's what he's doing, just so you know. Romy: Got it. Joel: Romy, when you have an opinion on that, please let us know, because I do think it will be something that all of you have to sort of tackle. Romy: Yeah, how could it not? You look at the stuff that's going on right now with Amazon. It's critical. Chad: Yes. Romy: It's definitely. There's no question that it's the future. Chad: Right, right. Well, pivoting a little bit as we see companies say they're focused on equity, inclusion, but numbers aren't showing it in many cases, is gender equality really just a bunch of BS right now that companies are trying to throw at the machine instead of really putting grounded frameworks in place to ensure that they're getting the right types of individuals who are more diverse into their organization? It just doesn't seem like we're moving the dial fast enough. Romy: You know why it doesn't seem like ... This, by the way, is like my favorite question, so thank you for asking me. The reason it doesn't feel like we're moving the dial- Joel: Suck up. Romy: ... fast enough is because we're not at all. According to the World Economic Forum, we are 202 years away from achieving gender equality in the workplace at this current pace. Chad: That is something that you just can't stand for, right? I mean- Romy: No, yeah, it makes you wonder why I get up in the morning, right? But why I get up is I have a daughter who's five, and frankly, if we can all go crazy trying to accelerate that timeline, in my lifetime, I'm not going to see anything close to workplace gender equality, but maybe if we really get focused and deliberate, my daughter might. And so I think about that a lot. Romy: But so in terms of what are the company's motivations, right, I see it that I think it's interesting, when Fairygodboss launched, it was 2015 and when we walked away saying we did career community for women, people thought we had three heads. Nobody does now, because the world has really changed a lot since then. But I think at first, people originally talked about diversity because it was kind of like a nice to have and it checked a box. Sometimes a board member might ask about it. Then came the whole Me Too movement, and I think there was a real kind of downside protection element to it where people were protecting it's reputational risk, etc., and having sort of a party line that they could trot out about okay, well, we're managing for diversity. Romy: So then now today what I'm seeing in the zero unemployment world is fascinating. Companies are working hard to hire women because they can't find enough men for their job. So that's a real change, and you see there was an article recently in the Wall Street Journal about trucking and logistics companies that are hiring more and more female drivers and having to reposition themselves because they can't find any more men. Where I want the world to go is that everyone is investing in gender diversity and all kinds of diversity hiring because they know that it leads to better business results, and according to Morgan Stanley and others, you see that companies with more diverse leadership have better stock returns, right? And all corporations exist to drive shareholder value. Romy: So if companies, I hope, will all really internalize the fact that this is a must, if you're fulfilling your fiduciary duty to your shareholders. If you want the best results you could have and your team is not diverse you're not delivering that. Chad: So 200 years is not acceptable, first and foremost. I have two daughters, okay? Don't you feel like you at Fairygodboss almost owe it to the community to provide almost like an equality credit check for a lot of these companies, ones that you can actually see have diverse leadership teams and you can say, "Yes, they're high up on the radar because they are on the right mix. We know that it all starts from the top as it bleeds down." Is that something that you are moving toward, or is that just something that you just kind of push away and say, "Hey, it'll handle itself"? Romy: Well, so, I try really hard not to editorialize about companies. I certainly have opinions, but I think my view is that the single best thing that every company can do to be more successful, more gender diverse, more gender equal is have more women at all ranks. And I think it doesn't serve ... I think companies who are investing regardless of where they are on their success spectrum in terms of diversity shouldn't be penalized, because really what I want is everyone wholeheartedly invested in hiring more women, bringing more women up through management, and I don't think slamming companies supports that at all. Chad: Well, great, then in that case, taking a look at female versus male equity from top to bottom, and being able to provide kind of a credit check then. So yeah, I- Romy: So we do have that, we have that. Again, not editorialized. So based on simply what female employees, like Glassdoor's ratings, we have a top rated companies for women and it's based entirely, I think in the best possible way, it's based on the fact that the female employees of these companies are going out and deliberately, positively representing their company and feel so strongly about it. So that's how we represent that. Joel: Talking about what companies can do, I'm curious about what individuals can do. And Chad and I recently did an interview with Torin Ellis, who's a champion of diversity and inclusion, he's an African American man, and we asked him straight out, "What can two white guys do to help progress relations between a diverse universe?" Romy: How can you female ally? Yes. And actually we have a whole conference devoted to this, so it's very topical. But I think what's interesting is especially in larger companies, what I see is that there's still a real disconnect between kind of the experiences that women have and what men perceive, and I certainly don't blame men for that. I think what the first step for everyone, for optimal kind of shortening the 200 year timeline, is much more direct communication. Romy: To answer your question, I think the first thing you can do, any man can do, is approach women in the workplace and approach maybe if your company has a women's resource group and say, "Hey, I want to be a male ally. I'm raising my hand so put me to work. Let me help. Or I'd like to find out more about your experiences. Where have you found problems? Do you feel like there's inequality here, and if so, where have you seen it?" So just raising your hand, identifying yourself as someone who wants to know and wants to hear, and then when you hear it, doing something about it, and helping to light that fire. Chad: Romy, I have a question around spending, okay? So in most cases, companies focus on their bottom line and how their bottom line's being impacted and how they treat their customers. Most companies don't see candidates as customers. Romy: But more and more do, right? Chad: Yeah, well, they're starting to, but they're not there yet. Now when women, at least some of the research that I've actually seen, women are driving 70% or more of consumer spending in the United States today. Is that not really just a big hammer to hit these companies over the head with and say, "Look, guys, this is impacting either positively or negatively your bottom line from a products, a service, or a total brand standpoint." What are you doing, Fairygodboss, or what can you do at Fairygodboss to take this banner and ride it all the way up to every Fortune 500 company, because this matters? Romy: Right. Well, I mean, one of my favorite companies to talk about is General Motors, because they have a female CEO, a female CFO, half female board, and they've had like five or six years of record profit and stock price. And an interesting takeaway from them is they have a woman's network or woman's employee resource group as many companies do, and the way that the objective or the way that success of this woman's network is measured is in terms of their market share among female car buyers. Romy: And I've rarely heard a company so directly connect diversity efforts to the business outcome. But I think it's brilliant, and I think everyone should try to figure out a way to do that. And you know where you see it a lot? Where we're seeing it more and more is not yet in the consumer space, but in the professional services space. Law firms, consulting firms, advertising agencies. Increasingly, you're seeing that clients won't accept teams from providers that are not gender diverse, or diverse in all ways. Joel: So we've covered individuals and companies, and I want to talk about employer-specific real quick. And there's a lot of information out there in regards to job descriptions and how they should be worded to be inclusive of all, both men and women. For example, don't use words like aggressive or demanding, that somehow bullet points are more favorable to women. Do you put any stock in this research and do you give advice to companies using your service in regards to how they should actually structure their job descriptions? Romy: So I think job descriptions are terribly flawed anyway, right? For all humans. And so no, frankly we don't spend a ton of time on them because there's so much that needs to be fixed and there's so many reasons it hasn't been fixed, right? Whether it's legalities, whether it's complicated companies, whether it's ATSs, you name it, it is not an easy place. But that is also why it is our belief that if you're trying to attract female talent, it isn't about the job description. Women don't connect with job ... Nobody connects with job descriptions, but especially not women. Women want to hear stories. Romy: And I think a lot about years ago, a couple years ago, my husband and I bought an apartment and we went to all these different apartments and in every single apartment, he had his tape measure and he was checking out the HVAC and he wanted to understand the mechanics, and I wanted to know where the breakfast nook was and how comfortable were the kids' rooms. We had a completely different experience with the same process. And I really think that, and obviously huge generalizations here and everyone's on a spectrum, but women are inspired to confer and connect with a role in a very different way than men are. And that is why we lean heavily on the storytelling. We lean heavily on the role modeling. Romy: Women really react to and respond to hearing why this woman thinks her job is amazing, and how it fits into her life. And some of the best articles we've written, some of the most successful articles we've written, one was for fidelity and it was called "Why my career in finance has made me a better mother," and it really sizzled. It was all about how this woman had this very entrepreneurial experience being a financial advisor, fidelity and how they supported her and trained her, and she was able to be with her children when she needed to be. So really, really convincing women who might not have thought about this job or company to apply. Joel: Sizzled. That's awesome. Chad: So Romy, we thank you once again from the bottom of our hearts for coming on the Chad and Cheese Podcast. If our listeners- Romy: Thank you. Chad: ... want to find out more about Fairygodboss, where would they go? Romy: So please visit our site and register for our site at Fairygodboss.com. Of course, we are also on Facebook, we're on Instagram, we're on LinkedIn, and you can email at us at info@fairygodboss, and I would love to talk to any of you. Joel: And soon to be on TikTok. Romy: Later to that. Chad: And again, anyone looking to be an ally and really caring about equity, inclusion, equality, check out Fairygodboss.com. Thanks so much Romy. Romy: Thank you guys. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors, because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #social #EmployerBrand #EmploymentBrand #FairGodBoss #Nexxt #Equity #gender #fairness

-- Listen to Crazy & The King PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies find talent in the largest minority community in the world – people with disabilities. Joel: Hey guys, we're not going to do a show this week. In light of the recent mass shootings and El Paso, and Dayton. Chad and I thought it would be better time served for audience as well as ourselves, that we think about the world we live in, how we can make it better, how we can change it. This isn't a political message but obviously voting is sort of at the core of our country and how things get changed. And we hope that in this time that you would normally listen to our show that you think about what you can do to make the world a better place. Chad and I both have children, his older than mine but we both live with a new reality of fearing that our kids won't come home, and that's real. And we just thought that this would be a good time to reflect on life in our own families, and how we can make the world a better place. So, Chad. Chad: Yeah. So, guys, there are plenty of voices that need to be heard this week, and I don't believe, ours is one of them. So personally, I'm suggesting today, you look up Crazy and The King and listen to this week's podcast. They have insights I believe everyone should hear. Open your ears minds and hearts to change, so we don't have to endure these types of tragedies any longer. Because I mean, we're only better than this. If we embrace solutions which bring change. Joel: And special thanks to our sponsors Canvas, JobAdX, and Sovren who are always supportive. Joel: We out. Chad: We out.

By 2020, over 40 million Americans are predicted to be part the GIG ECONOMY. As such, platforms whose goal it is to support freelancers and solopreneurs are hotter than ever. However, not all platforms are created equal. The boys sat down with Communo CEO and co-founder Ryan Gill to dig into this smokin' hot trend. Take a glimpse into the future on this exclusive podcast from Nexxt. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your bridge to the disability community, delivering custom solutions in outreach, recruiting, talent management and compliance.​ Nexxt: Okay, so we've already established texting is probably the best way to connect with candidates, right? Plus, Nexxt stats show 73% of professionals are open to receiving job opportunities via text, and with a 99% delivery rate, you cannot go wrong. Those are two big reasons why you got to love Text2Hire from Nexxt. Nexxt: That's right Text2Hire from Nexxt with the double x, not the triple x. Nexxt: Nexxt has over 8 million candidates who have opted in to receive jobs via text, and you and your clients need qualified candidates. Nexxt can help you find and target qualified candidates who have opted in for job opportunities via text. And in today's competitive market, you need an edge to reach qualified candidates faster. You need Text2Hire from Nexxt. Just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Nexxt logo to learn more about how you can gain a competitive edge with opt in texting. Text2Hire from Nexxt. It just makes sense. -- or JUST CLICK HERE Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Che, che, che, che, check it. We just can't get away from the Canadians. That's all I'm saying. Chad: Can't. Can't. Joel: Guys, special show today. We have Ryan Gill co-founder of Communo, co-founder of The Gathering? Ryan: Yup. Joel: The number one marketing conference in the world according to multiple reputable sources. Chad: According to Chad Sowash, that's for damn sure. Joel: Who are reputable, yeah. Ryan, welcome to the show, man. It's an honor to have you on. Ryan: Hey guys, thanks for having me. I'm pumped for this. Let's get into it. Joel: It is technically your second appearance, although the first appearance we were all a little bit inebriated I guess you could say? So hopefully you remember the first interview. Ryan: You guys were I wasn't. Chad: Yeah, uh huh. Joel: I was being nice. Chad: Just again, for the audience, for listeners, we met Ryan at the gathering last year and just blown away by what was going on. And then we learned about Communo, which is a marketplace. Joel and I are totally geeked out, we love marketplaces. We're seeing a lot going on out there, and we thought, hell, let's bring Ryan on, he's CEO co-founder of Communo, have an expert who's in this every day and talk about marketplaces, gig economy, the now, the tomorrow, kind of the evolution. So that's kind of the setup. Joel: By the way, the only thing we love more than marketplaces, is Ryan Gill. So how appropriate that he's on the show today. Ryan: Yeah, that's what I like to hear. Joel: So, few of our listeners know who you are, so give us a brief on what you do and what sort of gives you energy, and then we'll go into Communo because a lot of our audience has never heard of Communo, but they probably should. Ryan: Yeah. Really, the Coles Notes version is, I think from a high level for those that want to get to know me just as a human, is I've been in businesses 21 years, that'll be coming up, of running businesses, starting them. But I think in the last decade I became a bit more self-aware to know that I'm a true entrepreneur founder CEO, not an operating CEO. So that's a little weird background to start. But I basically became more self-aware about who I am and what I'm good at the last 10 years, and more closely the last five years that I'm really good at starting businesses, building the culture, building the core founding team, and then getting the hell out of the way because I'm an awful operator. So, that's who I am as a person. Everyone says serial entrepreneur. I hate that word. I have multiple companies but one vocation and it's building communities. Joel: And I'm going to give you a little shout out in that if you don't follow Ryan on LinkedIn, the videos that you produce on a regular basis are fantastic. Chad: Dabs. Ryan: Dabs. Joel: I just love the vibe and sort of the off the cuff. I feel like you say like, "Hey man, roll the camera," and then you just have thoughts just spin off your head. It's great. Ryan: Yeah. Thanks for the shout out. And on Instagram it's @RyanGillShares or Twitter or Facebook it's Ryan Gill Shares. Follow, and why it's important, and for me it's not a plug because it's actually, most of its embarrassing or some might think, "Why are you sharing that?" But the premise of Ryan Gill Shares and why we started doing it about 18 months ago, it's very, very new, is I built many companies and had lots of success and lots of failures, and I chose to do this new startup Communo in the marketplace business, which we're going to get to today, in the ad tech space, and when I did it I said, "You know what, I love podcasts, I love watching content on social, I think social can be great, but it's often waxing poetic about what happened after they'd been successful or they'd been a failure." Ryan: I was like, "What if we could document the journey of the whole thing from the startup, the idea, to fundraising, to building your company, and then almost like a movie, play it back in a couple of years, three years, and then people can actually learn as we go." So it is off the cuff and it isn't scripted. It's whatever we feel is important to show about that journey of being an entrepreneur, which a lot of people don't show the good and the bad and the ugly. And, you know, we only put out about 30 seconds a day or a minute a day, and then we do 10 minute vlogs on Monday. Dabs films for like 12 hours. If we can't get 30 seconds, we're pretty horrible. So [crosstalk 00:06:04], but Dabs makes magic out of 12 hours of film. Chad: He does. He does. So let's jump into this. So we want to talk about marketplaces today. Tell us a little bit about Communo. It is more of a niche type of a marketplace. And then we'll start to spin off into kind of like what you're saying now in marketplaces and move from there. Ryan: Well everyone that's listening, if you understand marketplaces and obviously HR and just talent, it goes like wide, narrow, wide, narrow. So Craigslist, one link on Craigslist was like bed and breakfast, you know, homes for rent, and Airbnb built a $100 billion company out of one list of Craigslist back in the day, one niche. And then it goes narrow, and then it goes wide again. You see like freelancer.com or Upwork goes wide. And I think, I'm betting on this, that it's going niche again. So although what I'm building with Communo was for advertising marketing professionals, that includes digital PR, everything that touch communications, it's a $35 billion industry when it comes to just the talent recruitment industry for this niche. So yeah, it's a small niche, but it's fucking massive. Ryan: And so we started it about a year and a half ago. I stepped down from my other companies that I still own but don't operate anymore, and I took on the role about almost ... so we started a year and a half ago, about a year ago I took on the role as CEO and as a co-founder, and we're building a marketplace so people have real time access to the keywords, vetted talent, which is a managed marketplace. So millions of small and large agencies and solopreneurs can grow by getting and giving work more profitably. And the genesis of it is, it all comes from the top down. The clients' projects are not one, two year projects anymore. They're one month, six month projects, and you can't possibly staff for that. It's impossible from a model perspective. There's such a need for it and we built it for ourselves to start with, and then, you know, last year this time we had a hundred users, now we're up to 40,000 users. So the market has told us it's a good idea. Chad: Holy shit dude. 40,000 users. Damn. So the cool part, and I mean this was really born out of your need through Cult, right, to be able to staff up and down quickly. So instead of going and building FTE shops, it just made sense to be able to be more fluid with the projects. So tell us a little bit about that and how the platform started to come together. Ryan: It's a very important point here, I'm glad you asked that. The FTE shop and the agency model isn't going away and Communo is not a disruptor, we're an innovator. It's a layer on top. It's a new piece of operating like QuickBooks would be or like ... It's literally the plumbing and so we're not going to displace the agencies. They're definitely going to get a lot smaller. And when Chris and I merged ... So Chris bought my other company, I had a digital agency called Suitcase Interactive through really late 90s early 2000s, and Chris Kneeland, my co-founder in my other businesses, when we merged and he bought my company, his first thing he said to me is like, we are peanut butter jam. He's like, "We want to go from tons of employees down to as low as we can go as far as FTEs and let's try this continuing workforce model," which we managed on a spreadsheet back in the day, "And see if it can work and see if it affects our top line and our bottom line. Let's do an experiment." Ryan: So from day one, this is 2011, we operated like that and started to narrow down our company, which was called Cult Collective. It's still is, it's a marketing engagement firm that does work for fortune 500 companies around North America. It's very successful and done well. But I would argue our biggest piece of success and why it was successful was our operating model. That's not sexy until it is, right? And so, people started asking questions, "How are you doing that? How are you growing with such a nimble small team?" And we're like, we used to have lots of people and we've narrowed down, but we had a bench of contingent workers, gig workers, that we knew were great and we could bring them in and they could do a project and then we didn't have to fire them afterwards because they didn't work for us. They were moving on to someone else. Ryan: We started coining the term portfolio careers and I think it became popular by someone else. But Chris and I said, "Go out, we don't have a job for you for 1200, 1500 hours for the year, but we have like 300 hours. Go work for our competitors. It's fine. It's not a zero sum game." And not only did the talent love it, that worked for us, we loved it because it made us more profitable. So our top line continued to grow and our bottom line exploded because we didn't have this utilization problem that all agencies and most companies deal with when it comes to human capital. Ryan: We're in the business in advertising and marketing that our product is people. We can't have products sitting on the shelf for six months and not being used. That causes a problem. So we solved it through ... At the time it was called The Collective and now it's morphed into Communo. The best startups, people that are listening, are usually ones that are built for yourself to fulfill a need. And we did that. Chad: Yeah, Slack. Joel: Yeah, Slack. A constant criticism of platforms is sort of the race to the bottom in terms of wages. How does Communo fight that and what are sort of your thoughts on how Upwork and Fiverr and whatnot are really driving down the cost for a lot of professionals? Ryan: Yeah. I have friends at Upwork and Fiverr and Freelancer, so I love them. So that's a little asterisk beside what I'm about to say. I hate those platforms and I hate their model because as a creative myself, I started out as a writer, it is just literally a race to the bottom. I think they'll be around for a long time. There's always a need for the corner store or Walmart. That's what I think of them. But I do think they're important. Communal wouldn't be where we are without them because they led the way. And like I said, there's great people there, but the model is just ... the actual people, they're like roadkill. It doesn't matter how cheap they get sold for, it doesn't matter, there's no real guidance on what people should be paid. They might say they do it, but proof is in the pudding and the members that leave Upwork or Freelancer and come to Communo, the first thing they notice is we don't have a job under a thousand dollars. We don't allow the slider under that number. That's just one of many things. Ryan: We do not take commissions. We're a subscription based model so they can prepare and they can hopefully budget for what they're going to pay. A lot of them join Upwork or Freelancer because it's free. Great. Guess what? It's not free. It's expensive. So those are things that, again, I don't think they're bad people and I think they'll be around for awhile, but if you're going to create a cult brand, which we're trying to create with Communo, you've got to have some enemies and they're definitely my enemy. Ryan: Shots fired. Joel: You're talking about vetting candidates. That seems like a real scaling issue to me. Talk about that process at Communo. Ryan: Let's go back to startup economics, they call it unit economics. In a managed marketplace like ours, we have three different types of people in our platform. The very top of the funnel is what we call extended network. They join our platform for free or for marginal, a very small fee, and they are not vetted except for we run a thing to make sure they're not criminals basically. Ryan: And then anyone who's verified on our platform, we definitely run the background check to make sure they're not nefarious or criminals, we have a scraping tool that checks their LinkedIn, their website, and it gives us a green, red, yellow light to say, "Should we vet these people deeper or are they good enough to be on the platform?" It's verified that they are who they say they are, so you still buy them at your own risk. Ryan: And then we have true vetted and they pay more money to be vetted. So obviously, again, extended network pays a little bit or nothing, verify pays a little bit more, but vetted pays quite a bit compared to our other platforms. And the unit economics work, and it doesn't affect their scaling because we can hire more people than other marketplaces to work on that onboarding to make sure they are who they say they are. But are they good? And one of our early taglines that was such a mistake, that I'll share with your listeners, one of our taglines was experts always. Seemed like a great thing, cool to say. I've been in the business 20 years, 80% of the work done in advertising and marketing, digital firms, PR firms, is not done by the experts. 80% is done by the juniors, the intermediates, and that's just facts. And clients know that too. But those juniors and intermediates need to be good. Ryan: And so we took that tagline off and we really started to say, "Hey, you want on our platforms some junior to expert because that's where 80% of the work gets done. You don't want to be paying $400 an hour for an expert unless you need them." We do have senior people on the platform, very strong ladies and gents, but back to your point, why we can vet them and spend so much time and so much manpower internally and have more FTEs on our team, is because the unit economics work. Where the other companies, they need scale, and they'll just let anyone on because they're taking commissions and we don't have that problem. Chad: So for clients who subscribe, and I mean just from a marketplace standpoint, do you allow the building of benches or talent portfolios? Ryan: Yup. So we are adding the ... It's not live yet, I think it's next on the roadmap, is adding of tribes. We've limited ... we kind of make these tokens up in order to make sure we don't run out of people just to get everyone on the tribe. So there's 70 right now, 70 different disciplines on the platform. So you get 70 coins and you don't get them back unless they're relinquished to you from that person. If they leave the platform or something like that, you get it back. So you can have almost your entire agency virtual, you could have videographers, writers, art directors, and the cool part about the tribe is you can send direct work to them. But more importantly, community. We're not trying to build a transactional marketplace, although transactions ... and we've had millions and millions of dollars of transactions happen in a short time, it's more about that true social connectedness and hopefully that tribes piece of our business, and our feature, allows people to actually get to know each other. Ryan: So when they need each other, and maybe it's not just for work, it's support or they have a question, they can either use a video piece of our platform or they can send a message out to their tribe and know that ideologically those people have received their invite to be in their tribe and vice versa. So they can be a bit more vulnerable and ask for help when they need it. Or scale up with speed because they trust them already. So we have a couple toggles on our platform, which we should get you guys on to test it out, but when you post a job, you can either post it to the open market, you can post it to your tribe, or you can send it direct to a member that you already know. Ryan: And the reason why people do it, you know, disintermediation, of course, you know that term, we don't care about disintermediation because it's subscription business. We're not a commission business. So if they take it offline, good for them. We are trying to build in a loyalty program that don't want them to do that. Not because our model will be affected, we just want to track the online transactions and see what's happening just from a data perspective. Hopefully I answered your question. Chad: Yeah, and it seems like it'd be more efficient to manage it in the platform anyway, have everything set up, your tribe, and not have to work offline. You have everything in one platform. So going back to the race to the bottom, I would think that talent feels like they're on that race to the bottom and it doesn't feel good, right? That damages a brand. So what would you tell a company? We met Justin, you brought Justin Gignac from Working Not Working, there's kind of like the same scenario where it's like, "Hey look, you're coming here not for a race to the bottom." It seems like that's where companies would want to go. They'd want to come to Communo, they'd want to go to Working Not Working because they want to build a brand that's not a throwaway brand. Right? Ryan: And when you say brand, yeah, so the difference to ... Shout out to Justin, Working Not Working, I'm a fan, but our models are very different. Justin's model's great. They're open to clients, so when you talk about brands building brands, that would be more applicable to them and 100% if Justin was here, he would say, yeah, that's what they're building and kudos to them. And it's not a race to the bottom on their platform, which I love. Ryan: I actually just flew Justin in to speak at our Summit. I think more CEOs, this is a total tangent, but stop thinking your competition is your enemy. You should be partners. And so I'm trying to build that bridge with Justin, we had him speak at our Communo Summit last week. Justin's platform Working Not Working is open to clients, so that question would apply more to him, so I can't answer that really. Mine is a closed marketplace, meaning it's only for agencies and marketers and solopreneurs or freelancers that do marketing type work or digital work. And so that's on them to figure out whoever their client is, what they're doing for them. Ryan: We're the matchmaker and making sure they get the talent and 100% we want it to be vetted talent and strong talent because they're going to either continue to come back to Communo because of that talent and we fulfill our promise, but there isn't a race to the bottom because I think, again, ideologically, why we made it a closed marketplace, which potentially, I'm using air quotes, can make it smaller, but it's not, is because people know what each other's worth. If a plumber comes to your house and you're a plumber and they're there for 15 minutes, they're like, "$300 please," you know that the handle was $200 and his hourly rate was $100 or $50, whatever it is. Ryan: In these open marketplaces like Upwork, you got people that don't have a clue what a video is worth or what a writer's worth, and so they just say, "Yeah, 50 bucks or 100 bucks." Where in Communo, the buyers are educated because they buy those services every day. And so to the plumber metaphor, in our business, it's like writers are buying from writers and so they're not undercutting them. Truthfully it's a slap in the face. And so I really feel like we are a shield in front of the creative industry saying, "Let's just let the agencies continue to deal with clients and they can set the prices and then they come to our marketplace to get talent that's good at what they do and everyone's getting paid fairly." Joel: I love that you mention plumbers and that sort of rolls into my next question. You see platforms not only in the digital space where you live, but also on bricks and mortar or offline businesses as well, right? So we all know Uber is an obvious example, but Chad and I on the show have talked about restaurant platforms where you can have gig workers or freelancers come in and serve food or cook food, et cetera. Do you think the same rules that apply to a bricks and mortar sort of a gig platform or solopreneur platform are the same ones that sort of impact the digital? Or are there differences between the two? Ryan: I think they're similar and the revenues are predicted to, by 2022, to be, for marketplaces in general, like 40 or $50 billion driven by the sharing economy. And I think the rule ... so they're similar, but the rules are different that I think because it's like a real battle out there in the brick and mortar because it is dying a bit, right? I don't think it'll go away, but just dying. So everyone's squeezing pretty tight. Where in the sharing economy or in these marketplaces like mine, everyone's coming in and it's in the name sharing. So there's this real generosity and you get exposed pretty quick if you're not that in a platform like ours or others like it. And I think what's interesting from a philosophical standpoint, why marketplaces from the digital perspective are growing so fast, I think it comes from the mindset that comes with sharing. Ryan: And so I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that's a really macro way to look at it, that everyone's squeezing real tight in the brick and mortar, and so there is no collaboration, everyone is trying to grab at things. And when you have a bunch of takers, things dry up pretty quick, where in these other platforms we're ... In Uber ... I literally refuse to take taxis now, I'm done. I actually lost a client. They don't care, but I think ... Also, I don't blame them for not ... They're feeling the squeeze, so they're squeezing more, and then they're looking for a tip or they're looking for this or that. "You don't have cash on you? What the hell?" It's like, "Who the hell is cash on them?" You know, those types of things. And so they're just squeezing real tight and guess who feels that? The end consumer. And so when the end consumer starts to not like it, they prefer a digital alternative and so they a digital alternative. Joel: I'm glad that you brought that up as well because you have some pretty strong opinions on what a freelancer is and what a solopreneur is. And when you said, you know, sort of the freelancer doesn't have sort of the buy in that may be a solopreneur does, talk about your difference of definition in those two and why one fits in nicely in maybe your economy and the other doesn't. Ryan: Yeah, for Communo alone, this is my lexicon. We actually have three different types of members. We actually have five, but small to midsize agencies, everyone understands, and then enterprise agencies are the two other of the five. But here's the three that I have delineation between, gig workers, freelancers, and solopreneurs. Here's my definition. A gig worker is a craft person with full time employment, looking for supplemental income maybe on nights or weekends. Cool. You know our 500,000 users and members over the next few years, it's a small percentage that will be those types of people. They're good people, we want them on the platform, but we're not even going to charge them because they're not adding to the marketplace. Ryan: Then there's freelancers. Freelancers, in my opinion, are full-time independent contractors seeking to be fully billable via project based work. Great. They're the next best thing. They're not the best, but they're just looking to sell 40 hours. They're probably going to work 60, but they're not business people and they might get mad at me for this, but that's okay. They're really just employees working in a different set of rules, their own time maybe, they're still selling 40 hours and that's not bad. Some people are fucking happy that way. That's great. Ryan: Our core member, and I want to know who created solopreneurs because I feel like Chris and I, we were talking about using those words early on, but I want to find out who coined the term because it's awesome. Maybe you guys know. In my opinion, they're full-time independent contractors, much like freelancers, very different than gig workers for sure, but much like freelancers, but they're building a business and seeking contingent workers as their framework. That is their model. They don't want another employee. They might have one, you know, EA or something like that, but their MO is to have no employees ever because they don't want that headache. And trust me, it's a headache. Ryan: It is, it is, but there's an upside too where entrepreneurs do want employees. They are solopreneurs and they always will be that way. And that is our core membership group. We're building about a $500 million business over the next five years, they make up for almost 300 million of our revenue because that is our core people. Why? And our investors ask us this, and VCs that are investing in us, why are they the most important? Because they're buyers and sellers, which is the greatest thing in the marketplace. You want to have those buyers and sellers. Chad: Yeah, yeah, no question. So what does a marketplace look like in five years? We know that there's so much energy that's going into it now, and people are still trying to figure it out. What does it look like in five years? Ryan: Yeah, it's the accepted way of doing business. When you ask that, and truthfully I'm like, "What do you mean five years? People already think of it better." And that's not a slam at you guys, even though I love to slam you, people think of it like that now, it's starting to become common verbiage and things, but people understand Amazon, which been around for a while, people understand Uber. The reason why service-based has been so difficult to crack, and it's a trillion dollar marketplace, it's going to be bigger than all of these other ones, is because it's trust, right? Uber did a bit of that. Amazon for sure did. Ryan: But it's more people, you're not buying products. And if we can, and this isn't a slam to my members, but if we can SKU our members, meaning we've forced them to verticalize, like to make sure that they are experts in something, they can do a lot of things, but why we push our members, even big agencies and small or solopreneurs to have one or two pieces of expertise on the platform, is because as you guys know, browsing is over in a marketplace. Ryan: You're not typing in marketing person, you're typing in VR, or blockchain expert, or you're typing in logo designer for automobiles. Chad: It's crazy specific. Ryan: Yeah. And so I tell people shop for people and so we're trying hard from a vision perspective ... Part of my job, which we should probably get into, is who will win in the marketplaces in the future. And I'm not patting myself on the back, but it's going to be who has the best vision and can communicate it the best from a CEO perspective and defining that strategy and what you're trying to build and communicate it to your marketplace first and your staff, and then the market, I think. Ryan: When I think about SKU'ing people, it's not negative. It's actually a good thing because the marketplace is now going online, but they're not typing in find me a marketing person or even a web person. They're typing, I need a mobile website for the travel industry. Who's going to win? The person that puts mobile developer or the person that puts mobile developer that only does travel websites? Chad: Well, here's the thing though. Here's the thing. That's what I'm talking about. So you know, as we start to get better at this, and when I say we, I'm saying the agencies even more on the direct employer side of the house, we understand the platforms better. Now I mean, you're working with agencies I think who, from an adoption standpoint, from an understanding standpoint, they get it much more than direct employers. But on the direct employer side of the house, I think they're starting to get that they need to be more specific. What exactly do you need? You're right, you're not trying to do the job description thing. You're looking specifically, what you need to fill a gap for a project. Ryan: Yup. 100%, and that's why membership and subscription model's better too, because it forces, again, I think it's Nassim Taleb that talks about ... Anyways, it's about charging people for stuff. They see more value in it. And so instantly, when they're paying 99 bucks a month for their subscription, they're going to care more about their profile because their profile is going to really drive what the ... it's like the front door to your, if you were talking brick and mortar, what does it look like? People understand what they're buying and are you only going to get buyers to come in? And so the reason why our model works well is because they pay, they're going to take more care and attention into their profile, which then makes it easier for people to buy from them. And so it's this nice circle. And then if more people buy from them, they invest more in that profile, which is basically their storefront. And it's just this good positive circle, positive feedback. Joel: Hey Ryan. Most, most of our, well not most, but a lot of our listeners, and I'm sure people on your platform are younger, so let's say 35 and younger, they've never really known a bad economy for the most part in their professional lives. Everyone on this call is old enough to remember many recessions throughout our lives and particularly a really bad one about 10 years ago. I'm of the thought that the next recession, the next downturn, is going to expedite the growth of the sort of gig economy, the platform worker. Are you of the same mindset? What happens to Communo and other sites like yours when the economy goes to hell? Ryan: Yeah, we're trying to get ahead of it so we're a help rather than a, "Fuck you. I told you so." And what I mean by that is we're seeding the community and our industry globally as we grow globally over the next 18 months. Even people that say no to us or they say they're in, we're telling them when the recession comes, when the downturn comes, don't fire your employees or lay them off. Gift them a membership at a discounted rate. We'll be ready to give them a bridge or an off ramp onto something that they can start to use these platforms as a safety net. Ryan: And then it does become a meritocracy and everyone ... that word is hot right now. You're still going to have to be good, but it's going to weed out the people that are really willing to work. So if we're in a recession, it means there's also not a lot of work. So it's actually going to cut both ways so that hopefully they offload them on the Communo for a small fee and they help them get, you know, land on their feet and then it's on that person that's now on their own, but they don't have to be alone. Ryan: They can join our community and if they come in looking for true community rather than transaction, they'll succeed. If they come in looking just to get, which getting isn't bad, but it's the spirit of things, this overwhelming generosity on our platform helps our members know that they're not just in it to get, they should be in it to give and it's kind of like a positive reinforcement from the group. So I think it's coming very soon, I think sooner than people think. Ryan: And then secondly, there's going to be some winners and losers, like everything. It's going to be probably pretty sad still, I think, but platforms like ours will hopefully be a safety net for them to fall into. And then they're going to figure out they got to work their asses off just like they did at the agency or just like they did at the digital firm, to stand out. Ryan: Amazon's a great example. In the early days, Amazon went around knocking on doors saying, "Yeah, have your brick and mortar. Cool. But you should probably open an Amazon store." And a lot of them turned their nose up and now they're out of business a long time ago or they are heading out of business. Same with us. Like I hope these agencies expose their employees to our platform so when the recession does come, they're now like, "Oh, what should I do?" they know where they can go. Chad: Excellent, Ryan. Hey man, we appreciate you taking time, talking about marketplaces, again, talking about Communo and also hopefully you'll be able to come back sometime soon, talk a little bit about The Gathering coming up in February. We're really geeked about that, if you guys let us back in, that is. Ryan: Yeah, we're considering it. We might build a wall. Chad: Nice. Joel: Nice. Nice. Chad: Well dude, if somebody wants to learn more about Communo, where can they go? Ryan: Yeah, if there's investors out there listening, we're closing a seed round right now and then we're going into a series A round for 20 million, about 18 months. We're closing our seed round now, so if you want to get in, you can go to communo.com and go to the investor portion. For those creatives and agencies out there listening, just communo.com and also you can hit me up on social. Chad: Excellent. Yeah. Ryan Gill Shares. Joel: Ryan Gill Shares. Chad: Excellent dude. We out. Joel: We out. Ryan: See you everyone. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Marketplace #GigEconomy #Communo #Nexxt #solopreneurs #Freelance #Upwork #FIVERR #Craigslist #Marketing #creative #media

The hills are alive with the sound of acquisitions! The latest - Recruitics acquiring KRT Marketing - is the fourth similar deal in just a month. The boys cover the news, as well as discussing how much is sucks to be Slack right now, pane view job search, Amazon drones and Monster's continued cluelessness. Enjoy and show our sponsors some respect: Sovren, JobAdx and Canvas.​ PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides training and development to help your workplace leaders and employees integrate with and value people with disabilities. James Ellis: Hey, this is James Ellis from The Talent Cast podcast, and you're listening to The Chad & Cheese Podcast. So perhaps, treat this message like an intervention. Why are you doing this to yourself? You have so much to live for. Why would you waste your time here, of all places? Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. So weird. Joel: Summer, summer time. Just sit back and you're invited to a barbecue that's starting at 4:00 everybody. Welcome to The Chad & Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous dudes. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: I am Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show another big acquisition shocker. Chad: Oh, hello. Joel: Slack is officially fucked, and we now have an expletive on our podcast. And Monster is still totally clueless. Chad: Again. Joel: Just sit back and unwind, because it's summer, summer, summer time, and it's also JobAdX time. JobAdX: "Nope. Nah. Not for me. All these jobs look the same. Oh, next." This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just halfheartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it. We live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So, why do we expect job seekers to react differently, while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? JobAdX: Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits, with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection, and reducing candidate drop-off. JobAdX: You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment-branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites, to proactively compel top talent to join your team. Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing, joinus@jobadx.com. That's, joinus@jobadx.com. Attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Chad: Well, hello? Joel: Hello. Chad: Hello. Joel: Milwaukee. Chad: From Millay-Waukay. Yes, it is gorgeous out. It is in the low seventies. And we have a rooftop bar thing that happens. So, after I leave here, after we're done with this, I'm going to go produce out on that wonderful area. And just enjoy my time here in Milwaukee. Joel: Very nice. How are the cheese curds? Is the question. Chad: Dude, yeah. Beer and cheese curds. If you come to Milwaukee, and you're not doing beer and cheese curds, I think that's just really a staple. Sound Effects: Boo. Joel: Boo on you if you don't cheese curd it up. Chad: If you don't cheese curd it, you might get sent to prison. Joel: Well, enjoy your time there. Are you staying the weekend? Chad: No, we're actually kicking out late tomorrow. But Julie is in heaven, because her favorite beer of all time is Leinenkugel's Summer Shandy. We come in the airport, and they have a Leinenkugel's store. And I pointed it out to her, and she was like, "Oh my God, this is where I was meant to be." Joel: That would only officially be her heaven if the Obama's were in the bar with her, with being served by Pete Buttigieg. Shout out. Chad: Shout out. Okay. So, first shout out, I've got to do this. It's to CareerBuilder, because I think they're fucking with us. I really do. So, they are doing a Tech Talk at an event that is called, Your Brand As Told By Your Employees. And- Ed from Philly: Yo, that jawn is so lame. Chad: I don't know if this is, like- Joel: Do they have many employees left to tell a story? Chad: I don't know. This sounds like a comedy session to me, right? This just was the most ironic thing, and it was sent to us by a listener. Thank you very much. But CareerBuilder Tech Talk: Your Brand As Told By Your Employees. And from their standpoint, it's like, "You suck." Joel: Yeah. And part of the joke is, we found an article this week about how EMSI, the company they let go out of the spirals of hell, are now are now thriving outside of CareerBuilder's slimy hands. So, good job, EMSI. Chad: Yeah, good job. It's amazing what you can do when you get to get away from the hell scape which is CareerBuilder and Apollo. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Well, one company in the shitter drives us to one company doing great things. Our new sponsor, I think we need to to give them some love here. Chad: That's exactly right. Joel: Shout out to Happy Recruiter. Chad: Why Happyrecruiter.com? Joel: Why not? Chad: Because recruiters that are mad are not good for the company. You want a happy recruiter, right? Joel: Happy recruiter. So Dora is their chatbot. Chad: Yes. Joel: All the rage. If you're shopping for chatbots, make sure that Happy Recruiter's Dora is in your shopping list, at Happyrecruiter.com. Chad: Too easy, too easy. Joel: Too easy. Chad: Big shout out to The Chad & Cheese movie. It's out right now. It went straight to Betamax. Seriously. Seriously. Joel: Coming to a Blockbuster near you. Chad: That's right, straight to a Blockbuster near you. No, seriously. Check it out. You can go to ChadCheese.com. We have it on the homepage, or you can actually check it out on YouTube. Whatever you want. But I love the subtle British-like humor in the undertones, and how slick they shot the movie. Because it seems so serious. But then there are all these hints of, like, "These guys ... This isn't serious, is it?" And it's like, "No." We don't take ourselves that serious, it's fucking hilarious. Joel: Clearly the best 13 minutes you'll spend in your day, today. Chad: Exactly. And I think the ending really just pulls it all together. I mean, you will laugh, you will cry. It's a roller coaster of emotions. You'll enjoy it. Joel: I don't want to spoil it everybody, but, love wins in the end. Chad: Jim Stroud tweeted about The Chad & Cheese movie, and this is obviously one of his reviews, "I never thought I would ever hear the terms HR and orgasms in the same sentence, with all that making sense in the end. Only Chad & Cheese could pull that off, and still deliver the goods." Thank you, Jim Stroud. Joel: Full of surprises that benefits civilization. That's what you get at the show. That's what you get at the show. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Let me shout out to Gerry Crispin. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Our buddy, Ed, from Philly responded a while back that Jerry has really classed up the show. I couldn't agree more. In our five-piece series with Jerry- the last one came out earlier this week, called End Game. But I encourage you to listen to all the shows, if you haven't heard any. Jerry, thanks for playing along, and we'll chat again real soon. Chad: No shit, man. It was great stuff. Also, big thanks to Faith and Steven Rothberg for sitting down with Julie and me when we were in Denver, during Job Gate. To talk about how college is going to break the US economy if we don't get our shit straight soon. So, that's a topic that I think is center stage for our economy today. Not to mention, our economy effects everybody else's economy throughout the world, because we are in a global economy. And it was amazing how many people actually responded back, and that was obviously an important topic for them, too. So, thanks to Faith and Steven for that one. Joel: I love it when we get a little bit out of our comfort level, and talk about these bigger issues. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That's always fun. Chad: That's good stuff. Joel: That's always fun. Chad: Yep. Joel: Shout out to sponsor Talroo and Brazen, the two partner this week. Two tastes are better than one, as anyone from the 80s Reese's Peanut Butter Cup viewing will know. Congratulations to them, their partnership. Check that out at Talroo.com if you want to know more. Chad: Yeah. And my last shout out is to the Job Board Doctor, who we haven't talked about in a while. But he enjoyed the London Pub episode with Rob Prince from Talent Nexus. Who thinks we should bring Rob back on the show? Which will probably happen. Joel: Aren't we going to see someone, somewhere, soon from the Talent Nexus crib? Chad: Yeah, we're actually going see Jim and a Thomas. And it was funny because they said ... They're coming from London, so they said that they're going to come to Austin rent Harley's and find a shooting range. They want to have the Texas experience. Joel: And ride a longhorn. Chad: That's right. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Ride on mechanical bull do that. Do that. Yeah, I like when we do the live shows with the mics. We get some cool interaction particularly when we have guests. So it's no surprise that the doctor enjoyed that show. Chad: Events so ... Joel: Where are we going? Chad: In the next three months, that's all I have time for today kids. We're going to Tengai, ADA digital, and TNG for a live show from Malmo, Sweden in late August. I am fucking pumped for that show. Joel: I'm already searching for Viking museums. They got a few there. Chad: September 9th through the 11th it's Recruiter Nation Live brought to you by our friends at Jobvite. We also have a discount code for Recruiter Nation Live. It's ChadCheese@RNL. ChadCheese@RNL, so the code's going to give you $200 off the current registration. Joel: Don't forget to mention, this'll be our first a Aman Brar interview since he's been CEO at Jobvite. So I'm hoping to get some good content out of him while we're there. Chad: He's always a good interview. Joel: He's a great interview for sure. Chad: Always a good interview. September 24th and 25th going to Austin for TAtech North America. Joel: Death Match! Chad: Death Match! So we're really excited about ... How can you not be excited about fucking death match? It is such a fun program. The contestants that get on stage have a blast. It's really simple. It's a two minute pitch. We do Q and A at the end of it, four judges get together and we determine who the grand champion is. Can't wait to do that. Joel: Yeah bring it on baby. Death Match! Chad: The first part of October we're going to HR Tech in Vegas where we will be doing two live shows. They already have scheduled and HR tech go figure also has a discount code which is simply ChadCheese, which will give you $300 off the going rate. All access premium path. Check it out. Joel: How funny that we were banned from HR Tech last year and this year we're knee deep in it. I love it. Chad: Yeah. I think banned is a strong word, but yeah. Joel: It is a strong word. Chad: Last but not least, we're going to be in Paris. SmashFly is sending us to UNLEASH World in late October. So we're really excited about that. SmashFly, they're going to get their money's worth, I promise. Joel: Come on October in Paris? Chad: Yes. Joel: Bring on the wine, bring on the croissant. I love it. Chad: We need SmashFly gear to be wearing all around Paris. Joel: Yeah, obviously I get that thong ordered there Jay-Z. Chad: Time for topics. Joel: Big acquisition. Chad: Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to start this off with a tweet from Steven Rothberg from a few weeks ago or actually last week. And he said, "So apparently TMP is already notifying publishers that they're leaving APPcast in six to eight weeks. Wow, that's fast." And then Recruitics says, "TMP hold my beer." Acquires KRT marketing. And so I've got a personal story behind this. It's a podcast story. A couple of weeks ago I asked, did Recruitics make the wrong decision because all these programmatic players are getting gobbled up. Did Recruitics make the wrong decision by pivoting to an agency model instead of just staying a pure programmatic player? Chad: And Josh pretty much said, Sowash you're a dumb ass, which I think is awesome. For these guys to be able to do what they're doing and grow and really change the game itself. TMP bought a small programmatic player I've never heard of, but I think that's awesome. In this case we're talking about, especially here in the US, we're talking about two players that everybody's heard of. KRT is the nerdiest of the nerds. They've branded themselves as programmatic plus. And really knowing what programmatic is when talent acquisition can't spell programmatic. Chad: And then Recruitics really deep into, obviously programmatic, distribution, and analytics. I think this is probably one of the best marriages that I could have seen. I didn't see it coming. I think this is awesome. Joel: Yup. And this is, I believe the fourth deal like this in the last month. So programmatic and their marriages with others continues to be hot. What really stood out to me was that it usually is the agency that buys the tech and not the tech that buys the agency. So in the mid-2000s you had agencies try to build it themselves. And they kind of learned that that was sort of a bad thing to do. And then it was just like, let's partner, let's just be agency consultants. And now the trend seems to be let's buy people that know how to do the technology and bring them into the family. But this is first time I can think of where the technology buys the agency. Chad: Yeah. I mean, Recruitics really was an agency, but you're right. They were more heavy on the tech side than they were the agency side, I feel. And this was, I think, beautiful move from their standpoint to say, no, we are an agency. It's a great acquisition from a talent standpoint. When you're bringing a Ryan Christoi, Mona, Olivia, all those different, just incredibly smart agency people, and a portfolio of business with you, dude, that is fucking genius. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really interested to see, you know what Shakers, Bayard's, the other groups move will be. And if they make any move into this space. Because the anti is being upped if you will and it's their move. We'll see what happens. Chad: Well it's not just the anti's been upped, but you know that all the programmatic players that are out there today, what they were getting perspectively offered two months ago, has gone up dramatically. Joel: Yeah, probably. There are a lot more buyers than there are sellers. Now we did report a while back that at least one insider thought Appcast took too little money. I think 93 million was what they got, and this person thought they could have gotten a lot more. But that set the market, right? Just when a star athlete gets paid first, then all the others come in with an already made price tag. And that seems to have happened in this market. Once Appcast went, everyone knew what their price tag was and deals were starting to get done. Chad: To round this out, I'm kind of biased because both of these organizations were critics and KRT. Whenever we talk shit about them, they always respond back, and they want to be a part of the conversation. And they really understand what we're trying to do here at the podcast. We're trying to push the conversation. We're trying to ask the hard questions and they've always engaged, always engaged. Whether it's behind the scenes or it's out in front of everybody. They've always engaged and that's what I love about these two organizations. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Good people. And I joked with one of them, I don't know if he'd want to be named so I won't. But I said, I said, And just a little information we've been trying to get probably both of them to sponsor something on the show for a long time and they've always dodged us conveniently. But I said, "No wonder you haven't been advertising. You've been saving all that money up for acquisitions." So they got a kick out of that one. Chad: All, I have to say is hold my beer. Joel: Hold my beer. Yeah. Very nice. Well done. Recruitics and KRT. Chad: I love it. Love it. So Slack. Joel: Is fucked. Chad: Yeah. So it's interesting because they've just really done a big change in infrastructure to be able to make their platform much faster. And you would think that we would be talking right now about how Slack is going to continue to do well in the market. Although, I don't think either one of us see it that way. Do we? Joel: Yeah. I think we're both cautious on Slack. Obviously there's still a potential big story. But came out this week, Microsoft surpassed 13 million daily active users on their team's platform. And that's a two year company, right? That's as old as the podcast. So in that time they've already surpassed Slack in terms of users. And I think there are a lot of similarities to the job board game versus the platform game. And these platforms just have so much power through their numbers that they can just flip a switch and have millions of numbers overnight. Joel: So when you look at Slack with zero platform competing with, oh, I don't know, Google, Microsoft, and Facebook to have users on basically something that's a commodity. They're in an uphill battle and they better become a platform themselves if they're going to compete. But I think neither of us think that if they build a platform that it's going to be competitive with what Microsoft and Google has already built. Chad: Yeah. I know that they are doing some type of partnership with Google and who knows where that's going to go. But they're really trying to replace email. And I'm not saying that Google is not looking to do the same thing from an evolutionary standpoint. From the article, my biggest focus was Microsoft is using all channels available to market teams aggressively. Including through channel partnerships that sell other Microsoft products. We're talking about sales infrastructure. That is amazing, right? Chad: So if you just inject teams into a sales infrastructure, or into a suite of services that already powers a lion's share of the systems that are out there today. It's like, Holy Shit, dude, how do you compete against that? The only way you can compete really is defined in organization like a Microsoft. Get acquired, have deep integrations, but they have to do something. Joel: Which is why Amazon, as I've been predicting for two years, will be buying Slack and plugging into the network. It could be a possible acquisition for Salesforce as well. They're being predicted to come in a big way. Buying Slack would definitely put them in the conversation. Chad: Yeah, and as I've said before, I really hate their fucking Chatter product, so maybe they can show- Ed from Philly: Yo that jawn is so lame. Chad: Yeah maybe they can run Slack in, let's see. Joel: Well, speaking of a company whose technology does not suck, let's get a quick word from Canvas and we'll talk about T-Pain or Pane View or something. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text. And so much more. We keep the human that's you, at the center while Canvas Bot is at your side, adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: T-Pain. I don't really have the voice for the machine to do that. Chad: So yeah. We talked about the whole Two-Pane scenario when Indeed went to it and then Monster went to it. Yeah, and this whole Two-Pane. So really quick, it was very simple before when you would go to Indeed and you would click on a job, it would actually take you to where the job sat. And in many cases that was on the employers applicant tracking system. So it took you away from Indeed, but it actually popped up a browser, which you can get rid of. But, still it took you away from Indeed and the browsing, it kind of made it jumbly. Chad: So what they did was they instituted this Two-Pane scenario, which you'll find on some of the other shopping sites that are out there. And you can click on it and then the description opens up in Indeed. So it doesn't take you to the corporate site. It's just a better user experience for the job seeker. Now, Chris Forman, just did an article ... Joel: Appcast. Chad: Yes, from Appcast. Just did an article on ERE around Pane View. Did you read it? Did you get a chance? Joel: Chris has more money now than us by the way. Chad: That's not saying much, but did you get a chance to read it? Joel: I hope he's in Fiji listening to this. Yes, I did. I did. And ERE article. I think everyone agrees that it's probably better for the job seeker. You're not jumping to different pages, different sites. Obviously that is more convenient for them. I think where the argument comes in is, is it better for the job site/employer whose jobs are being Paned? I guess is that a verb? In this process. Imagine if Google did this. Imagine if Google, if you clicked on a result and it opened up a second window within Google of the site that you were searching? From a user, you could argue that's nicer. But websites would freak the fuck out because they rely on traffic, and retargeting, and selling ad space, and doing all that stuff. Joel: So the verdict is definitely out on whether or not it's better for the advertiser from a user perspective. But I'd say also from a cost perspective. And Forman talked about how the amount of money that you're paying per click now is going up quite a bit. Almost doubling, I think, in his article. And the cost per applicants that are clicking on those jobs is going up because fewer are applying. Because it's more or less window shopping than it is actually test driving when you do this. So the job site is making more money and the employers paying more money, but the results they're getting are going down. So you could argue that it's bad for the employer/ job sites. Chad: Yeah. So the old click model where you actually went to the employer's website was about 6.5% of the clicks went through. Were actually for paid advertisers, went through and completed the application. Now it's only 3.5%. So it's been cut dramatically. It's driving higher costs per application prices. The effective cost per applicant from Pane View publishers has doubled year over year due to the overall conversion rates. So here's the thing, and this is the really important piece. Is that if you are an employer, and you are paying for these amazing experiences on your website. Chad: And you are paying to get that job seeker to your website to be able to have that experience, that great experience, it's going to happen less as much. Half as much. And you're going to be paying double for that. So is this great for an employer and that experience? And the big question is, should they just start pulling their money from these sites that are Two-Pane? Joel: In a perfect world, this would drive a cost per applicant model. So it wouldn't really matter if they're coming to the site or doing it on indeed or monster. You're only paying if someone applies as opposed to per click. But I've heard no uproar from employers at this point saying if you're going to do Two-Pane or Pane View, then you need to have a cost per action or applicant model. But I think if the Pane thing continues, there needs to be some grassroots effort to get this thing from a cost per click model to a cost per applicant model. Chad: Yeah, well and I think agencies overall, they are in the best position to do that because they're the ones controlling a lot of the programmatic spend. So they can have these discussions and I understand that there is an agency group now. That they're having these types of discussions and if there was a group that could move the dial, it would be that group. Joel: It is very important to talking about programmatic. Because if the algorithm is deciding where the clicks are being paid, and where they're most efficient, then the Pane model puts the job site at a disadvantage. Because you're paying more for clicks. Too many clicks that aren't resulting in applicants. So if you're using the Pane View with programmatic advertising, you may be shooting yourself in the foot. Because the dollars are going to go elsewhere because the cost per click is too high. Chad: And that's what you get for Two-Paning it. Again, I mean it's, the thing is that you definitely want to have a great job seeker experience. But if you're an employer, isn't that your job to ensure that when the job seeker comes to you, they have a great experience? That's the hard piece, right? Because most companies, most hiring companies, they have a shitty experience. And if you are in Indeed or if you are a Monster, it's like, look, you guys have shitty experiences you always have. We want them to have a great experience, at least when they're with us. But the problem is for Monster and Indeed who's fucking paying them? Joel: Do you have any predictions for the fight? Chad: PAIN. Joel: PAIN. Chad: Yeah. I don't think companies are savvy enough to even start having this conversation. That's why I said that agencies need to start having this conversation. I understand that it is more money for them, there's no question. But they're there to do what's best for the client. And overall, I don't think doubling the price with less applications especially in a world where they're really focused on the user experience on the corporate career site. I think we leave it up to them and we start to have conversations with them to see where they take it. Joel: Well, you know who is getting to a point where they don't have to worry about job ads because the robots are taking over? Let's talk about Amazon drones and the first ever totally automated warehouse in Japan. Chad: Dude. So the FAA actually approved Amazon drone deliveries. Now we knew this was coming. We knew this was coming but I just couldn't believe it happened. Yeah, we couldn't believe that it happened so fast. I mean, my God dude. Joel: Yeah. The government is usually pretty slow to adopt this sort of stuff and the fact that the FAA approved it is pretty crazy. You've seen the video with the blimp, the Amazon Blimp, with the drones flying out of it? Like it's something from aliens meets Terminator? We're getting to that future closer than we think. And it all starts with the FAA approving these drones. They're coming people. Chad: Yeah, it certainly does. And if you think about it, that blimp in itself could be a warehouse. And it has all the packages that you need to deliver. And there you go. And drones are just going back and forth and getting the actual packages to deliver. Again, this is incredibly interesting. It's funny because all the news reports they were all focusing on, well these drones, what's going to happen in high traffic areas? And those types of things. And I think the FAA will pretty much stymie those areas like New York City or something. Chad: But what I'm thinking, what you and I've talked about is I don't think it's a robot problem. I think it's going to be a human problem and people are going to be taking pot shots of these things. And that's where we're going to see the news go. What do you think? Joel: Oh, I'm buying stock in BB gun companies right now. Because every kid under 18 is going to be trying to shoot these things out of the sky until they get cameras and face recognition. And if you're found they'll cut off your Amazon Prime subscription to protect themselves. But fortunately for Amazon as well, those pesky employees who are peeing in trash cans and boycotting their Prime days, it looks like they're going to be a thing in the past too. Because in the same week we have the first fully automated robotized warehouse in Japan. Joel: Jd.com which one of the Amazon's of Asia. Mujin, I'm probably mispronouncing that. A startup spun out of Tokyo University has developed robot controllers that can fully automate warehouses and fulfillment centers. So bye-bye people. The robots are going to work the warehouse, they're going to load up the drones and all the middlemen in that story are going to be displaced. Chad: Yeah. We've talked about this. We've seen the robots moving products throughout warehouses and those types of things. This is something that we knew was going to come to fruition. Now we see it happening first in Japan, but it's coming people. We have drones that are going to be delivering. We have individuals in warehouses that aren't really having a great experience doing the job that they're doing right now. And more than likely are going to be phased out of it. Joel: Who knew that too drunk degenerates with a microphone would be such good at predicting the future? Chad: Shit just seems so God damn simple. Joel: And speaking of predicting great candidates, let's hear a word from Sovren and we'll talk about Monster who we haven't talked about in a while. So I'm kind of excited. Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: Excuse my cat in the background. She was forgot to be fed today, so she's not real happy with me. She's a monster if you will. Chad: She's a monster. Joel: And speaking of monsters, Monster.com, Scott Gutz CEO is in the news this week. Chad: Yeah. So this article, I'm going to take a different spin on it. They're talking about millennials, right? So what was the big focus on millennials around this specific article? Joel: Well, I would say millennials love AI and big data, and machine learning, which is what lip service Mr. Gutz gave for the article. Although we've seen a little out of that from Monster itself. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Well, from my standpoint, what stuck out for me was, in the talent acquisition space, I'm going to quote. "There's not been a lot of disruption and dramatic change over a 25 year period. Employers still place job ads online and candidates answer them with the little change to the process. Monster's downturn instead reflects its own failure to innovate while competitors started to capture market share from a natural evolution perspective." So first and foremost, Scott, you should be in politics because this is the biggest bullshit answer I've ever heard for at least a while. Chad: It is HR and TA slow to adopt, which is one of the reasons why we don't progress as fast as marketing and sales. Yes. Hell yes. Was indeed a disrupter? Fuck yes they were. Why? Because Monster, CareerBuilder, lack strategic understanding of the industry and mainly they felt invincible. That's how Indeed's innovation kicked Monster and CareerBuilder's ass. It might have been a deviation of something that was already happening online, but it was different enough to be able to disrupt. And in an era that we are right now, where most of the disruption ... Chad: Shit, we're talking about acquisitions all over the place. It's happening in front of their face, I just don't understand why they're saying there hasn't been that much disruption. How do you think Monster fell off the mountain man? You got kicked off because of disruption. Joel: Yeah. Someone made a better mouse trap. There's definitely a point to be made that you know there will always be help wanted ads in the windows. There will always be ads in the paper, ads online, and that's going to happen. The problem is that the world is changing, people's appetites are changing. How we consume media is changing and if you don't keep up with all of that shit, you're going to be in trouble. And I think more and more if you're not part of a monolithic platform or lifestyle, you're really going to be put behind the eight ball. Joel: My problem with with the article and I'll read you my favorite quote since were doing that. So my favorite quote from the story from Mr. Gutz was quote, "We are constantly evolving our monster technology stat so that we can build out in machine learning and artificial intelligence algorithms. We hope to be the innovator behind those important changes." We've been covering Mr. Gutz since he got at Monster. The only innovation that I can think of is they took off the banner ads from the site and they did some video. Which they partnered with VideoMyJob. And that's all for the innovation that I've seen. Chad: No, they went Two-Pane. Wait a minute. They went Two-Pane. Joel: Sorry. Sorry. Pane View. They still want to be the Instagram of jobs. Yeah. And they took banners off the site. So for him to be talking AI and innovation and machine learning is a fucking joke. Because life isn't what you talk, it's what you walk. Monster needs to start walking the walk because nobody's listening to the talk anymore. Chad: No. Well and he says they want to bring solutions to candidates and employers where they already are. And it's like, dude, you're fighting the wrong fucking fight, dude. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, is where the candidates and employers are. You've got to fight that fight. This is a lifestyle platform game now. If you don't know that and you don't understand that dude, you're going to lose. That's all there is to it. If you don't start to walk the walk instead of talking all this fucking talk, dude, it's over. Joel: At least I don't see those shitty commercials anymore. I think they took them off the air. So we've started with CareerBuilder and we're ending with Monster. Sounds about right. Chad: Yup. We closing the loop. We out! Joel: We out! Announcer: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? A podcast with Chad The Cheese - BRILLIANT. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing! Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one. Cheddar, Blue, Nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. Announcer: So weird. Any-who, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out! #KRT #Recruitics #Programmatic #Monster #Careerbuilder #Microsoft #Slack #Indeed #Amazon #Robots

Gerry Tales with industry icon Gerry Crispin was off-the-chain, and this is Part V, the last of our interview on all-things-recruiting. Enjoy, get smarter and show exclusive sponsor Nexxt some love. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Chad: Aho! Welcome to the last, the final chapter of Gerry Tales. This is Chad Sowash, and we are happy to have Gerry Crispin, the man, the myth, the legend in this volume five of Gerry Tales. Enjoy, after a word from our sponsor. Chad: Okay, so we've already established texting is probably the best way to connect with candidates, right? Plus Nexxt stats show 73% of professionals are open to receiving job opportunities via text, and with a 99% delivery rate, you can not go wrong. Those are two big reasons why you've got to love Text-to-Hire from Nexxt. That's right, Text-to-Hire from Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. Nexxt has over eight million candidates who have opted in to receive jobs via text, and you and your clients need qualified candidates. Chad: Nexxt can help you find and target qualified candidates who have opted in for job opportunities via text, and in today's competitive market, you need an edge to reach qualified candidates faster. You need Text-to-Hire from Nexxt. Just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Nexxt logo to learn more about how you can gain a competitive edge with opt-in texting. Text-to-Hire from Nexxt. It just makes sense. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: You go to a lot of conferences, and that's putting it lightly. What is your sense right now on the health of conferences? Are there too many conferences? Are attendees getting exhausted with the number of conferences, or, just like the economy, are the good times going to roll for the foreseeable future? Gerry: Yeah, I think there's too many conferences. I really do, and I think people are starting to cut back. I think they're starting to think about it differently. I'm seeing ... Typically we see companies screwing up a little bit in terms of the end of the year. They don't cut your conference budget, but they cut your travel budget, so you've got money for the conference, but you can't get there. Well, that's not a really good excuse, so there's that. Gerry: I think there's another issue, and that is the head of HR, the head of TA or TM, often has a budget that allows for them to do some interesting kinds of things, but they're not the ones often who should be at the conference. It should be the people who actually operationally have to do stuff, the head of TA operations, the head of TA analytics, the head of university relations, the head of ... They're the ones who, by and large, need to have the budget for them to learn or to determine that there's somebody, a team leader, who could learn and bring it back. Gerry: Typically, if the global head, CHRO, goes to a conference that costs $5000, he or she does not come back and share everything with the people below them, and that, to me, is wrong. That five grand could've put five people in a conference, where they could come back and teach each other. Some companies, certainly I'm an advocate for that kind of approach, and I believe that peers should be doing a lot more to help each other. Gerry: One of the things that Chris Hoyt and I are trying to do is to identify, in various geographic locations, groups of recruiters and folks who are more team leaders and directors, who we could bring together to have a meet-up, where they talk to each other about an issue, as opposed to getting an expert in, somebody who's supposed to ... You know, if you think about what experts do, they basically talk to a lot of recruiters, and then put it together in a talk. Well, you know what? If the recruiters talk to each other, they don't need to spend the money on the expert. Gerry: Exactly, and you get more honest, transparent, open discourse about realtime issues. And then, they're more likely to engage each other online in a way that's open rather than superficial. That's our current effort to give back in some of the areas around the country. Chris just did a meet-up in Silicon Valley that one of our members, Intuit, helped to underwrite and sponsor, and basically, Chris basically got up and spent no more than 45 seconds saying, "Hi. We put this together so that you guys could have a conversation. End of speech. Go back to talking to each other." And the NPS scores on that were 100. And that's what they need. They don't need to be spoken to or taught, pitched, sold, whatever. They need to have quality conversations. Chad: Yeah. Last question from me, Gerry, because we've had you a long time, and we appreciate it. Joel: We appreciate it. Chad: On the ... Yeah, we'll get him back though too. On the employer brand side of the house, we know that there are so many disjointed systems. Companies are using early 2000 process methodologies to be able to try to slam it into technologies instead of trying to rethink how they hire. They have horrible user experience. What's the most, in everything that you're viewing in the employer brands side of the house, what is the most negative? What is bringing the most negative impact to that employer's brand today? Gerry: I think the biggest problem I see with employer branding, because certainly, the folks who are fully engaged in employer branding, want to provide quality information that attracts folks. I think the mistakes get involved in the execution more than anything else. There's an honesty that you see in just a few places, where they talk about, "Don't come here if this is what you're looking for," kind of thing, so that they can reduce the number of people who get attracted, and then focus on why you should come or why you might want to come to this organization. Gerry: There's too much customer-related marketing, which tries to sell people ... "If you've never tried this product, you should try it." That's not how you should be focusing on your career. I think the worst I've ever seen was typically among, in the era of Monster and CareerBuilder fighting over each other, was basically the statements in those ads were, "If you had a bad day, change your job. Come to our job board and find a new job." Don't solve your problems. Go find a new job. And that kind of approach is a little bit more nuanced now when you have employers who basically are trying to attract you for whatever reason, simply because they know you have a certain, I don't know, coding capability. Gerry: That's not a good reason to move from one company to another for an additional $10000, because you don't know what the hell's going to happen on that basis, and so I think the worst issues right now are spamming people with promises that are totally outrageous. And too often that happens with desperate recruiters in desperate times using all of the tools that they have, and just overshadowing their employment branding in ways that are not very real at all. They're cooking the books, if you will, about the kind of organization you're going to find. Joel: The companies that you work with, how are they currently viewing or approaching the Glassdoors, the Indeed reviews, Kununu, Fairygodboss? What's their strategy around that now? Chad: Do they give a shit? Gerry: They do. Joel: Is their head still in the sand? Gerry: Oh no, no. Their head's not in the sand. The problem is how to solve it. Some of those, like Glassdoor, and so I'll ... Let me deal with that one. Glassdoor can be criticized in a lot of ways, but obviously they're visible, out there. The problem is that there's certain elements of their model that developed over the years that are not that positive. For example, if I don't spend money on Glassdoor, someone else has more capability of using my page, because it's going to be there, to advertise and compete with me. And so companies use Glassdoor, in many respects, from a defensive point of view. Gerry: Now, they really need to be able to use Glassdoor in a way that they can collect data that they collect, not that Glassdoor collects, to determine whether or not they're getting the value that they input. Most of my members are split in terms of either being quote "all in" for any number of reasons. Or trying to find a way around it, and that's what's going on right now. They're all aware of a number of these organizations, but they need to be able to figure out how to best fit that in, or how to not use it. Gerry: And that's true even of LinkedIn. LinkedIn is, for some companies, is a crack addict tool that prevents them from using almost anything else, because, if that's where you can put the body in the seat, you're going to use it over and over and over, until you don't know how to do anything else. Joel: Hey, that heroin drip is nice. Gerry: To me, it's fascinating, but the cost ... But now, at some point, a corporation looks at their costs of each of their areas and says, "Holy shit. Maybe an RPO would be better?" And the point is, do you want to find yourself in a position where you're spending so much money on all of those recruiters tools that your finance folks, without your knowledge, go and find that they could do this a lot cheaper if they got rid of all of you? Now, that doesn't mean that that's the right decision. It might mean that you did not spend the time becoming more efficient and more effective. Chad: Yeah, and you don't want to put that in finance's hands, because they will look. Gerry: And you should be looking at it. You should know that that's the limit of what you can do. I need to be able to demonstrate that my organization, if I'm the TA leader, my organization not only does the job, but we do it more efficiently and more productively, and we give more value to the people that we're dealing with than any other way of doing this, and this is how we fly our freak flag. If we gave it to someone else, they might do an adequate job, but will they do it with the kind of enthusiasm and engagement that we want to see shared when they come in? Gerry: And that is an interesting set of questions. For some companies, they should be using RPO more. For other companies, they should be really thinking about how they can do the best job that they can do. And for me, my members, I only want a member who cares passionately about this subject of recruiting, who is fully impelled to improve, compelled to improve, has some thinking skills, so some critical thinking skills, and most important, is willing to share with one another, because I absolutely believe that peers and colleagues should be learning from one another before they go anywhere else. Joel: My brain hurts a little bit. Gerry? We know you're a busy guy. We really appreciate the time. Gerry: This was fun. Joel: Yeah, this was fun. We need to do this again next year. Chad: Or before. We find an event, the three of us sit down with cocktails, and then we have the same type of discussion. Joel: Ooh. Gerry: I'm in. Joel: Because Gerry knows a thing or two about good bottles of wine. Maybe we could leverage that. Gerry: That's true. Chad: Excellent. We out. Joel: We out. Chris Walken: Thank you for listening to ... What's it called? Podcast, the Chad, the Cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing, just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible, and not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss, so many cheeses and not one weird. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. So weird. We out. #GerryTales #GerryCrispin #Events #EmployerBrand #Brand #Technology #Glassdoor

$1.5 trillion in student debt is breaking students backs, but it could also break the U.S. economy. Steven and Faith Rothberg who join Chad and Julie for a look at how College affects the workforce and our economy. Is college too big of a business to fail? Are all colleges treated the same? Why aren't more companies driving the talent conversation through investment? All this and more on When College Breaks The U.S. Economy podcast. Brought to you by Nexxt at Text2Hire - in today’s competitive market you need an edge to reach qualified candidates faster, use Text2Hire Nexxt's answer text recruiting. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides training and development to help your workplace leaders and employees integrate with and value people with disabilities.​ Nexxt: Okay, so we've already established texting is probably the best way to connect with candidates, right? Plus, Nexxt stats show 73% of professionals are open to receiving job opportunities via text. And with a 99% delivery rate, you cannot go wrong. Those are two big reasons why you got to love Text2Hire from Nexxt. That's right. Text to Hire from Nexxt, with the double x, not the triple x. Nexxt has over 8 million candidates who have opted in to receive jobs via text. And you and your clients need qualified candidates. Nexxt: Nexxt can help you find and target qualified candidates who have opted in for job opportunities via text. And in today's competitive market, you need an edge to reach qualified candidates faster. You need Text2Hire from Nexxt. Just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Nexxt logo to learn more about how you can gain a competitive edge with opt in texting. Text2Hire from Nexxt. It just makes sense. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: All right, hey, this is Chad. We have a cheese-free, that's lactose intolerant people are going to love this one. Julie: Or everyone. Chad: Cheese-free podcast. I have the Rothbergs, our favorite couple who obviously listen to the podcast. Faith Rothberg, the brains, and then we've got a Steven Rothberg, the, I still don't know yet what, what the, the brawn, the comedic, the, the comedic sidekick of, Steven: Of all the Rothberg couples that you know, we are definitely your favorite. Julie: Number one. Chad: Definitely. No. Yeah. And then we also have my beautiful wife Julie Sowash, the cohost of Crazy and the King podcast. Julie: Hey everyone. Chad: So that being said, here's how this goes. Our favorite couple, the Rothbergs, love us for our podcast, obviously. Faith: We do. Chad: And they said, you know what, we've got something that we want to talk about. So can you pull the mics out? Can we have a conversation? I said, hell, why not? I mean it's, it sounds like a good time. So we'll see how this turns out. You guys want to talk about college and we'll talk about some of the mess that we're currently in. Not to mention, start talking about some of the disparity pieces. So Steven, Faith what are you saying? I mean this is, this is actually your space. Steven: Yeah, so it's, it's definitely, it's an area of real concern for, so our business, College Recruiter, is a job search site for students and recent grads. And one thing that we've seen a lot since we went live way back in 1996 is just the incredible change in financial abilities and problems that students and recent grads are having. And a lot of it is due to the rapidly increasing tuition and student loan burdens that they're facing. And like you said, there's a huge disparity. So schools like Harvard that you mentioned, their endowment is so large that they could make every student, they could allow every student to go for free to Harvard forever. Chad: Yeah. Ridiculous, right? Julie: And Harvard is not cheap. Steven: Yeah, and it's exactly, Harvard is definitely one of the more expensive schools. And then on the flip side, and Faith pulled together some numbers, you've got historically black colleges and universities, HBCU as most people would refer to them as when they don't have 14 minutes, to where they're just literally struggling to keep the lights on. Chad: Right. Steven: You've got broken windows, letting in pigeons and shit like that. Chad: Yeah. Steven: And the, the disparity is incredible. And then we wonder why people who graduate from certain schools graduate making $120,000 a year and others are graduating making $22,000 a year. Faith: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. When we looked at some of the statistics, it's mind boggling. First of all, in general, there's $1.5 million of student debt right now. Steven: Trillion. Faith: $1.5 billion. Sorry, $1.5 trillion, which is just a number that I can't even fathom. I mean, how do you put your arms around $1.5 trillion in student debt? Steven: I could put my arms around $1.5 trillion dollars. Faith: The thing that's crazy is also like we said, how fast, not only tuition is growing, but how fast that debt is growing. Chad: Right. Faith: And when it comes to HBCUs, 70% of the students at HBCUs do get Pell Grants, which, which help a lot. But because of the increases in tuition, there's still a need for loans to fill the gap between what the school can help with and what those grants cover. Chad: And these aren't interest-free loans, either, in most cases right? Faith: No, in most, the interest rates are much higher than mortgage loans for us to have our own house. Right. I mean 6%, 6.8%. Julie: I mean the, the debt on my, or the interest rate on my student loans, which are set by Congress, the interest rates are twice of what my car payment or car interest loan is, more than twice what our house payment is, or our house mortgage. Yeah. And I'm really looking at a student loan payment that may actually be larger than our house payment. Steven: And if you were to file for bankruptcy, you could get rid of your car loan. You could get rid of your home loan and you could get rid of your credit card debt, but you can never get rid of your student debt. So that is going to hang over your head forever. Julie: Yeah, and I think there's a misperception too that if you have student loan debt that you don't want to pay it back, and that we're looking at political candidates who want to do student loan forgiveness and do all those kinds of things. And I think that's a misnomer. I don't have any problem paying back the debt that I borrowed. I do have a problem funding Congress and funding spending that I don't have any benefit to at a rate that's not reasonable. Julie: I mean we were talking really about, you know, the HBCUs and everything with black students coming out with substantially more debt than white students. You can't start to make up that wealth gap and that generational wealth gap that continues to happen with black and brown students until we start to put some parameters and some minimizations around how much they have to borrow. Because it's just like being a first time college grad in my family. I have more debt than my kids are going to have, but we're still, they're still going to have more debt than people who've been able to go to college and have less than loans for a long time. And it's just this cycle that never ends . Steven: Faith, you had some numbers on the indebtedness by students from HBCUs versus overall. Faith: How disparate it is. So for non-HBCU students, there's a, 55% of those students have student loans. But for HBCU students, 80% of the students- Julie: Wow. Faith: Have those loans. So it's definitely disparate. Right now, it says that black grads owe an average of $7,400 more than their white peers. And that's expected to triple over the next few years to $25,000 difference. Julie: Difference? Chad: Difference, yeah. Higher. So we talk about disparity, right? And this is the thing that really pisses me off, is that first and foremost, I understand that we want to ensure that colleges and universities are being run well. And you take a look at a lot of the research money that's going in. I believe Johns Hopkins actually receives more research money than all the HBCUs. Right. So I mean, so that, so that, I mean, just that piece of disparity in itself, where the money's actually being thrown to this one university, and well-known university, totally get it. But all these HBCUs are very well known as well. So I mean that's the thing is that we have this, the cycle of disparity and it even in the educational system. Faith: Oh yeah. We're totally perpetuating it by not having, they don't get the federal funding for research, like you said. And then, therefore their students don't get as involved in that research and they're not building... Many of the other universities can use that research money and give a better education to their students. And these HBCUs are just, they're basically just getting enough money to keep the lights on. And that's not the same thing. Chad: Right? Right. Yeah, they can't, they can't build on the actual, really the college, the university on the programs. Any of that right? Faith: And the curriculum, exactly. Chad: Yeah. I mean dropping football, dropping sports because it, it costs too much, right? Faith: Yep. Steven: Yeah, so when I graduated from law school way back and I'm hopefully a fully recovered lawyer, Faith will disagree with that most of the time, and the rest of the time she's sleeping. But when I graduated, the tuition at the school that I went to, University of Minnesota, top 20 law school, the in-state tuition was $3,500 a year and the out-of-state tuition was $7,500 a year. So fortunately I qualified for in-state, they made it pretty easy to get residency. But a friend of ours was just looking at going to, well, a friend of one of our kids is looking at going to law school and he told me that that law school now is $38,000 a year. Chad: Holy Shit. Steven: So it's gone up tenfold from what I paid. Chad: And the salaries, the starting salaries have not gone up tenfold. Steven: Correct. I mean lawyers, lawyers who come out of the University of Minnesota are certainly not generally going to be struggling to put food on the table. But when I graduated it was very, very common for somebody making $50-60,000 a year upon graduation. None of them are graduating, making 500 or $600,000 a year. They might be making 80, it might be, it might have gone up by 50%, but it certainly hasn't gone up by tenfold. And Faith pulled some numbers that in 2006, so 13 years ago, the total student indebtedness was about 480 billion, four eight zero, and then eight years later it had more than doubled to 1.2 trillion. And then just a couple of years later, in 2016, it was at 1.4 trillion. Steven: So as bad as it was a decade ago, 15 years ago, it's just, it's escalating. It's becoming exponential. Faith: It's accelerating. Steven: It's accelerating, thank you. It's becoming exponentially more difficult year over year over year. You know the mayor from near where you guys live, Pete Buttigieg, which he, and he and his husband have a hundred- Faith: I'm glad you can say that name. Steven: A lot of practice, a lot of practice, a lot of bourbon. He and his husband have $130,000 in student loan debt and if they're paying at 5% which would be pretty normal, but not on the cheap side, that would just be sort of in the normal bracket range of a 10 year loan. I think I figured that that was something in the neighborhood of like 40 to $50,000 that they would need to make a year to finance that debt. Steven: Yeah. An average student debt is like $40,000 a year at 5% over 10 years. That's $6,300 a year that they need to make because then you take taxes out of that and then $5,000 a year goes to your loan points. So if you're graduating in two, the average college grad makes about $45-46,000 a year. Right. And $6,300 of that right off the top is going to your student loans, and then you've got housing, which very normal in a second tier city, like in Indianapolis where you guys are, Minneapolis where we are, it's very normal for housing to be 1000 bucks a month. So that's another 12 grand. Before you know it, you've lost half of your income to student loans and housing, and then we wonder why people are living in their parents' basements. Faith: Not making it, yeah. Steven: It's because they're below the poverty line if they don't. Faith: Yeah. I think a lot of people that are older that went through college when we, when we did, they don't, they don't realize, unless their kids are in college and they're seeing these tuition firsthand. Chad: They didn't have this crippling debt. Faith: No, they don't really understand how impactful it is. Many of many of these young people assume they will never own a house because they're always going to have a student debt payment of $1,000 a month. And so it's really changing the, sort of the view point of what it's going to be like to live as adults, having families, making all these major decisions. Chad: So we see this impact. We saw the financial crisis right and, I mean this is, this is a crisis. This is literally could easily cripple our economy. Faith: This is the next boom bust, right? Like we had credit card debt. The only difference that makes it even worse and more scary is that you cannot discharge your debt. Chad: Yeah. Faith: So right now there's like 7% of, what was it, 7% one in seven people that have student loans are in default right now. When they're in default, these poor students in grads that can't pay for right for it, they end up getting bad credit ratings. They maybe can never buy a house, buy a car, get a mortgage, whatever. So it's, yeah, it really impacts all the way through their lives. Steven: Yeah, if you want to get an apartment, if you want to get a job, then landlords and employers are going to run a credit check on you. That's become very common. It's now, it's now unusual when a professional position does not require a credit check, and if you're in default on your student loans and your credit rating is four 80 or whatever, right? That employer's going to say, "Well, you must not know how to manage your money. I don't want you managing whatever it is that you're going to be doing here." Chad: Right. Steven: And so we're not going to give you a job, and then that just makes that worse. It compounds the problem. I want to go back to something that that Julie was saying too about the discharging of debt and it's something that I just don't think that most people appreciate, that for almost the entire, for almost the entire history of this country, bankruptcy was designed to be a fresh start and it was designed to encourage the entrepreneurial spirit for people to take chances and, because overall that benefits society, Chad: Right? Steven: Yes, there are going to be some people who go into bankruptcy who really shouldn't, but that's what courts are there for. And the creditors, the banks etc. certainly are well-represented by their attorneys. So I think the number of people who are really getting away without paying debt, that really shouldn't, is incredibly minimal. But when you have your home mortgage, your car loan etc., and you're paying two, 3% on those, and you're paying very often 8% on your student loans and those are risk-free to the federal government, then where is that money going? And I think your point, Julie, if I, if I understood it correctly, is you know, charge me the 3% that I would be paying on a home mortgage or a car loan and it's kind of within the realm of reasonable is, but when it's 8% what you're doing is you're having students subsidizing the federal government, or the it's, it's a tax on education. Julie: Yeah. And you think about too, another example is I work for a not-for- profit. So right now student loan debt forgiveness exists. If I make it 10 years at my nonprofit potentially, and so I've taken that risk that I will get to 10 years with that company and that puts me in a lower payment bracket. But the interest, I'm paying more in interest every year in that student loan, that income driven repayment plan. Then you know, my interest is more than my payment makes in a year and that's money that's not going into my retirement. That's money that's not going to fund my kids' college. And we've got, we've got one in college now and another couple potentially on the way in the next couple of years. And so we've got this kind of sandwich generation going on too where we're going to be paying off our college debt until I'm probably 60 if student loan forgiveness doesn't go away. Chad: Wait a minute, you didn't tell me that. Wait a minute. Julie: Yeah, no shit. Right? Yeah, I kept that one right under the covers til it was necessary. [crosstalk 00:17:14]. Steven: Wait a minute. Julie: And I'm going to be paying on my student or my kids going to- Steven: Why are you trying to take the ring off of her finger, Chad? Julie: It won't even get close to student loan debt. It's a beautiful ring, but it's not going to get up there. Chad: No, no, no. Not to mention, I'd like to keep my life. Julie: But yeah, I think that the overall, one other thing I was reading this morning when we were talking about this is that women have two thirds of the total college student loan debt. And so, it adversely impacts black and brown people, and the institutions, but it also adversely impacts women. And it keeps us from being able to start our own businesses, to put money into our retirement, to invest in ourselves and our families. And there's not a lot we can do about it, you know? I mean, I was a single parent while I was in college and I know I have more debt because I needed help with childcare. I needed help with expenses to keep the lights on at our house so that I could go to college. Even though I worked full time the entire time I was in university. Julie: And so you create this, it's just a trap. It feels like a con game, right? Because Congress has us, no matter what, we can't get rid of the debt, we have to pay whatever loan it is that, or interest rate they give us. And if we try to refinance, for example, to a private loan that would have an interest rate that would be half of what I'm paying now, I'm not eligible for any type of different payment plan. I'm not eligible for student loan forgiveness for my public service or anything. So you lose all of that opportunity to live today versus being able to pay off your debt and no one teaches you that when you get to university. Chad: No. Well, and pretty much what I'm hearing, go figure, the disparity piece, is that, you know, we want to try to again lift women up. We want to be able to lift brown and black people up. We want to be able to, to be, but this again, part of the cycle is pushing them down further because they're receiving more debt than white dudes like me. Right? I mean seriously, it, and again, we talk about how we want to have a level playing field and these are individuals who are trying to, they're trying to get that education so that they can go and make more money. The problem is they get this crippling debt right out of the gate, and they get more then the white dude like myself, I mean. Julie: It's just another great example of institutional inequity and I think most white people who appreciate their privilege, and you know, I'm white so I recognize that I have some privilege, but white men in particular who have the most privilege don't want to recognize that these institutional inequities exist. That the system is just what the system is and we just keep going and you suck it up, right? Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, be a good American and get it done. Chad: It's a hell of a lot harder to pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you're not a white dude. Julie: Exactly. Chad: And Julie, last, because we're always talking about endowments and how there's so much money that's there. And this is ridiculous and there was no fucking reason for this. Not to mention you talk about all the kids at Harvard could go to school for free. Fuck that. They can actually take a lot of that money and help subsidize a lot of these other colleges and students, right? So I mean, this is, this goes beyond that of that one institution, that wealth begets wealth. This needs to be infrastructure that actually feeds itself. Chad: Not to mention one last thing. I really believe that companies need to be putting money directly into and help building some of these, these skills gaps, types of programs for development or bio-engineering or whatever it is. They need to be putting their own money into that because the talent that they're getting is going to be creating wealth for them, right? They shouldn't just be sitting there waiting for these guys to pop out and then bitch because they're not getting the, the skills gap right, right? If that's the case, put some fucking money into the Goddamn institution and start building pipelines that will help you get where you need to go. Steven: Yeah, one of our former US senators used to say that it's really hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you don't have any boots. Chad: Yeah. Faith: Exactly. The other thing that I just wanted to point out from what Julie was saying too, is that the whole, the whole social inequity, it just keeps the cycles of a lot of, more of our socioeconomic issues. So when you say women have more student debt and black and brown people have more student debt, then you look at those women, many of them are like you were Julie, a single parent trying to make it and trying to better themselves by going to college, by getting that degree so they can have a better income when they come out. And yet it's a vicious cycle because now they're strapped with all this extra debt. Chad: Yeah. Faith: And then they're just stuck in the same place. Even though they're- Chad: And the big question is, is it worth it? Faith: Right. Chad: Literally, is it worth it? Could I perspectively go to a tech college? I agree. I agree. Yeah. But could I go to a, a different type of a certification or something of that nature and not be strapped with this crazy debt that I'm going to be paying off my, you know, pretty much my entire damn life. Steven: A ton of the for-profit schools where tuition tends to be the highest, the loan default rates tend to be the highest. A ton of them, the programs are exactly the same or worse than what you see in community colleges. And you'll pay $40,000 for a culinary degree at a for-profit school and you'll pay $4,000 at a community college. Chad: Yeah. Steven: So why do people go to the for profit schools? Well, one is they are much more aggressive in marketing. Why do most people drink Pepsi or Coke rather than rather than Shasta? Julie: Right. Steven: You know, it's, they're all colas and the Shasta is going to quench your thirst, but, they're the marketing dollars. The aggressiveness of the for profit schools is far greater than the community colleges and the community colleges are so grossly underfunded that there simply aren't enough seats. I hear these people, they tend to be people who are highly educated themselves and whose kids are going to USC and Harvard and whatever. Chad: Right. Steven: And they say, oh, well then don't go to school. Don't go to college. Like that's the answer. Like everybody's going to be like a software developer in San Francisco where you don't actually need a college degree. It's like, um, yeah. The reality is, is that if you don't go to college, you are almost certainly destined to living either in poverty or one paycheck away from poverty for the rest of your life. So people who say, just don't go to college, that's your own fault. Fuck that. Unless you, unless you want to be a plumber or an HVAC today, and those guys are making some damn good money because there aren't any around anymore, right? And, and, and AI is going to be, have a very hard time taking over plumbing jobs. Chad: Yes. Okay guys. Well, I again, I appreciate you taking the time and if listeners want to learn more about you guys and what you do, where, where should they go? Faith: They should go to CollegeRecruiter.com and they can learn more about us on the about us page. They can email us at faith@collegerecruiter.com or steven@collegerecruiter.com if they want to engage in the conversation. It's something I'm extremely passionate about and you'll continue to see more from us about on the topic for sure. Chad: We are too. We are too. Thanks. Thanks for joining us. Faith: Yeah, thank you Julie: Yeah, thanks guys. See you soon. Chad: We out. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more visit Chadcheese.com. #College #CollegeRecruiter #Economy #Debt #Talent #SkillsGap

As the dog days of summer drag on, industry news remains hot, hot, HOT! This week, the boys discuss: - Indeed's strategy to stick-it to recruitment ad agencies, - Programmatic buying spree break down - Google's latest strike against the likes of HackerRank and Github - Can companies control their employees social? - Snap is back! - Don't get flamed by your own social accounts Enjoy and give sponsors JobAdX, Sovren, and Canvas lots of affection. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps corporations tap new channels to find qualified talent in the disability community, manage culture change, leverage federal and state hiring incentives, respond to a changing regulatory environment, and strengthen their workforce through diversity. Jim Stroud: Jim Stroud here and you are listening to my favorite podcast, I listen to it every day, it's amazing, it's wonderful, it's... Okay, help me out. Who are you guys again? Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: All right. Because you are sick and tired of Robert Mueller news, take a break for God sakes. Welcome to The Chad & Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous, so help me God. Chad: Well, hello. Joel: I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, is Indeed sticking it to the ad agencies, TikTokers are sounding off on their employers, and Kelly gets cutsie with its latest ad campaign. We have to wait six months till the holidays, but boy does Canvas already have some goodies for you. We'll be right back. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text. And so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas bot is at your side, adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine-learning technology and has powerful integrations, that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix, by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Canvas: Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: ... Oh, yeah. Joel: This is the last week without football, till April of next year. Chad: Thank God. There's nothing else to watch right now. Joel: I'm including the XFL, which I guess we're still calling football at this point. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Some kind of football, right. Joel: How you doing, Chad? Chad: Fucking awesome, dude. Joel: Yeah, it's been a good week. Chad: It has been a good week. It's been a good year, let's just put that out there [crosstalk 00:02:42]. Joel: It has been a good year, it has been a good year. It's amazing what you can accomplish when you're actually at home for a week. Chad: Yeah. The world tour has really kicked us in the nuts, every now and again. But it's been a good... I don't know if there's a good kick in the nuts, but anyway. It's been amazing. Joel: We've been Tim Sacketted while we're on the road, if you will. Sorry, Tim. Chad: Not so sorry, Tim. Joel: Shout-outs. Chad: Shout-outs. Shout-out to our buddy, Torin Ellis. So, we were at RecFest. Joel: Yup. Chad: Torin Ellis was onstage, did what Torin does. He captivates, he inspires, he kicks ass, takes names. Well, the guys from Talent Nexus said, "Hey, let's get Torin right after he's done, right off stage, and let's have a conversation." Within that conversation, I had an important question because I know at one time, I was asking myself this. "What can two white guys do about diversity?" Talent Nexus actually delivered a two-minute video that we posted on social, that had blown up, people are really rallying behind it. Because, to be quite frank, if you are a white dude but you do believe that something needs to happen for equity and inclusion, what the fuck do you do? Torin states it very clearly, very easily and I thought it was awesome. Joel: What Torin does so well is, yes, he slaps you in the face with his message and his honesty. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But he also does a great job of empathy, putting himself in the shoes of a middle-aged white guy, which is what we are, and thinking, "I'm into diversity and inclusion, I want to do my part. But what exactly can I do, as a middle-aged white guy?" The video really encapsulates Torin's message, but also what Torin is all about. It's actually connecting with people, that don't normally think about this stuff. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: It's great. Chad: Yeah. So LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, go out to the socials- Joel: Or the podcasts. Chad: ... look for me, look for Joel. Yeah, just look for it. Yeah, it's fucking awesome dude. Joel: Yeah. Video podcasting, it's hip, it's cool, it's the new thing. I love it. Chad: It's hip. Joel: I'm going to give a shout-out to SHRM's Roy Maurer, my buddy there. Chad: Oh, Roy. Love it. Joel: He writes for them quite a bit and did a story on the Facebook news, about them having searchable ads and what they're doing there. Quoted your boy right here, so that's kind of why I'm giving him the shout-out. But the article is rather good, head out to SHRM.org if you want to check that article out. Chad: Yeah, it's good. Even though, in spite of Cheesman being a part of it. SO, big shout-out to our friend at Shaker Recruitment Marketing, Mike Temkin. Mike Temkin posted, and it wasn't just specific to us, but it was specific to us. Yeah, where he actually had some data, [crosstalk 00:05:41] some research that showed by Hootsuite, that pretty much 39% of individuals 18 to 64, are reported listening to podcast each month and nearly as much as 47% reported to listen online, monthly. Chad: So it's either via phone, online, either way. But podcasting is blowing the fuck up. If you haven't heard our interview with Mike Temkin, just google The Chad & Cheese Podcast/Mike Temkin, an awesome interview. Guy's a stud. Joel: Yeah. I love that we're benefiting and profiting from the dumbing down of society. No one's reading anymore, they just put headphones in and listen to the news and the commentary. Chad: Woo! Joel: All right. shout-out to Ken Lazarus, CEO of Scout. Sort of a hidden gem in the HR Tech space. You might remember they raised $100 million last year, so we talk to Ken on one of our latest podcasts and get down to what they're going to do with that 100 million, and what exactly is going on. Chad: Pretty awesome, pretty awesome. So we're getting ready to do a partnership, just going to tease this partnership with The Gathering, the event that happens in Banff. Joel: You're such a tease. Chad: Fucking amazing, by the way. But it's funny because we're starting to do some recording and there were some bits that didn't make it to the actual podcast, and we wanted to be able to share some of those with you today. Joel: Ready? Chad: Yeah. Sibyl: Shit, damn it. I'm going to try that again. Shit, damn it. I'm going to try that again. Shit, damn it. I'm going to try that again. Chad: Okay. Sibyl: Shit, damn it. I'm going to try that again. Joel: Damn it. I like the '80s sort of... [crosstalk 00:07:23] definitely. Chad: It is, yeah. Sibyl: Sorry. Shit, damn it. I'm going to try that again. Joel: I'm ready to put on some leg warmers and Jazzercise. Sibyl: Shit, damn it. I'm going to try that again. Chad: I know. So the guys from The Gathering, actually these were outtakes, as they were doing some recordings. They actually packaged this up, obviously, because Sibyl is the one who's doing the voicing. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: But they sent it over to us because it's funny as fuck. We generally don't play outtakes and it was like, "Why the hell not?" So, shout-out to The Gathering and to Sibyl over there, for great outtakes. We appreciate it. Joel: Yeah. One, we should do something like this. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And two, yes, we are stupid because we just listened to that for like five minutes and just laughed our asses off. We'll probably listen to it again after this podcast and laugh some more, like Beavis and Butt-Head style. Chad: Of course. Joel: Shout-out to Gerry Crispin. Gerry Tales, our fourth installment of the epic Lord Of The Rings-esk podcast interview with Gerry. Number four is up, it's as awesome as the first three and as awesome as the next two. Chad: It's Gerry. That's all I have to say. Candidate.ID, shout-out to those guys because they are killing the crowdfunding game. They've nearly doubled what they've asked for and they still have about 30 days left. If you guys are into, obviously nurturing and building talent pipelines and that kind of stuff, they were on Firing Squad. I don't know if you remember or not, Joel. Remember? Joel: Yup. And Death Match. Chad: Yup, and Death Match. I gave them a rousing applause, Joel gave them a golf clap. But dude, I'm a huge proponent around companies like this. Getting out and actually demonstrating, "Is this idea really worth it? Will the community get behind this?" Not to mention, this is great from a PR standpoint. Right? Joel: Yup. Chad: So, big shout-out to Adam in the team over at Candidate.ID, this is a winner. If you want to check it out, go to crowdcube.com/candidateid, all one word. Joel: Do you know the numbers behind that, what they were hoping to raise and what they've actually raised up to this point? Chad: Yeah, it was 50,000 for starters and they're over 100,000 to date, and they have nearly 30 days to go. That's in pounds, by the way, so they're actually over 100,000 US dollars. 57 investors, their target was 50,000. Yeah, so it's looking good for those guys. Like I'd said, if you're a company that really wants to demonstrate that, the community is getting behind this. Why the hell not? Either talk the talk or walk the walk or get the fuck off. Joel: By the way, disclaimer, we are not financial experts. We are not recommending that you buy this company or say that you'll make money buying this company. Chad: Thanks for that. Joel: I don't want to get in trouble for someone losing their pants, investing in Candidate.ID or any company in the HR Tech space. I will say that, with the regulations around investing in companies, in this way sort of becoming loosened around the world, I think it'll be really interesting as we move into this next phase of startups and companies raising money. How that goes, how much money they raise, and getting away from the traditional VC, how companies raise money will be interesting and something we'll be talking about, I'm sure. Chad: I haven't yet, I will put some money in Candidate.ID. Joel: Will you? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Okay. Well keep us informed about the big payout. When you're sipping fruity drinks with umbrellas in Portugal, we'll know why. Chad: I love it. Joel: Shout-out to the hashtag yoga. I don't know if anyone heard last week's show but iCIMS, as part of their Media Analyst Day, is offering a yoga session. I challenged listeners to hashtag out "yoga"... Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: ... or "no yoga" as whether or not I should do it. Obviously, "Do the yoga," is the reigning leader, or the leader right now. I don't even think "no yoga" has a vote. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So at this point, I don't know, I might have to head out to Lululemon, get some yoga pants. Get a little sweatband going and some wrist bands, wrist sweatbands and limbering up a little bit. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I might be having to do some yoga in Phoenix. Chad: Yeah. I have already committed to do the yoga, so in the registration process they ask what you would like to do. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: I've already committed to it because the listeners want us to do it. Joel: If we could at least organize some beer to be at this yoga session, to take away some of the pain, that would be great. Chad: Beer yoga, yeah. That would be great. You know what else is great? Joel: Tell me. Chad: Chad & Cheese, The Movie. Joel: Sundance, here we come. Chad: Yeah, I don't know if it's quite great yet but we just received the link and I got to watch the first couple of minutes before we jumped on the podcast. Looks amazing, the guys over at Talent Nexus, go figure, they make us look good and that's not easy. So I'm looking forward to screening it, not to mention the promotion to get it out. Yeah, so there you have it. Look on social during the next couple of weeks or so, and we'll be pushing it hard. Joel: Yup. Robert Redford, we're coming for you. Sundance, 2020. Let's do this. Chad: Events powered by our travel sponsor, Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Joel: Who, I hear word they're making three-piece suits for us. Chad: Yeah, they should. With just Shaker all over them. That would make so much sense, it would. Joel: The backpacks are awesome. They're beyond age, gender, sex, race. Everybody loves a good backpack. Chad: That's exactly right, and I'm taking mine to Malmö, Sweden where we're going to see Tengai. That's right, the interviewing robot. Also, TNG Staffing here at the latter part of August, pretty stoked about that. Joel: Right, I'm ready for some salmon and capers and cheese, or whatever else they're eating there in Sweden [crosstalk 00:13:42]. Chad: They told you that they don't do capers. We just saw them in London and they said, "We don't do capers." So... Joel: Oh. Someone sells capers in Sweden, I'm sure. Chad: We've got TA Tech in Austin, Death Match where Job.com, asses first, I mean Assess First and a couple of others, soon to be named, are going to be on stage. The big sponsor... Joel: Yeah. Chad: ... is Alexander Mann Solutions. Joel: Outstanding. Chad: So I'm stoked about that. Joel: Outstanding. Chad: You did some work this week, on the actual trophies. Do you want to talk about that or are we just going to tease it? Joel: Let's just say that the winner will get something spectacular, when they win. Something that will blow up the socials and be something that you might take to your grave. Let's just put it that way. Yeah, it's that amazing. Chad: It's going to be retroactive, so we've got to make sure that we put one in the hands of Aman Brar at Canvas/Jobvite. Yeah. Joel: Canvas, yup. Chad: Then one in the hands of Andreea Wade at Opening.io. So, looking forward to that, as well as HR Tech in early October. We're going to be on stage two days, in the expo hall. Listeners, if you want $300 off ticket- Joel: Chad Cheese. Chad: The discount code, very simple. Discount code Chad Cheese. Joel: We make nothing, so even if you hate us, save some money. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We don't get any of it, it's all good. Chad: Yeah, it's all good. Then, the latter part of October, 22nd, 23rd, we're going to be in Paris. That's right, SmashFly is sending us to unleash in Paris. Joel: [French 00:15:24]. Chad: Yeah, where we're again, going to be in the expo hall, on stage. Just making a shit-ton of noise. Joel: [French 00:15:30]. Chad: I'm out. Joel: News time. Joel: We love inside information, don't we? We love talking to the sources that know the nitty-gritty and what's going on. Chad: Yes. Joel: We had the pleasure, this past week, of talking to two high-level insiders about two interesting topics. Chad: Yes. Joel: Programmatic and what the hell is Indeed up to? Chad: Yeah. Joel: I'm happy to discuss either one first. Chad: Yeah. Let's go ahead... I think they all come together, but what one insider said was Indeed is going direct, to companies. This is something that we saw from Monster, something we've seen from CareerBuilder, we've seen this from many companies. Where they're like, "Let's keep the 15-20% ourselves." Joel: Yup. Chad: But the thing is, when does that ever work? Joel: It works for a while, maybe. But in the long-term, I think it's sort of shooting yourself in the foot because too many companies are just like, "Agency, you handle it." Chad: Yeah. Joel: And if agencies aren't making their cut, they're going to slowly stop recommending you as a source for advertising. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Joel: That's the way it works. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Now, Indeed thinks their shit don't stink enough to think, "There's no way that an employer will not use Indeed," but that's giving a lot of employers a lot of credit. Thinking that they'll go outside of their agency, to go directly to Indeed for that advertising solution. Chad: I don't see Appcast rocking the boat or StepStone rocking the boat and saying, "We're going to do things differently." I think this is a great opportunity for StepStone to start realizing revenue in the US and continue to do what they're doing in Europe, while pressing more performance-based ads, as opposed to duration-based. I just think, from the StepStone standpoint and from a German standpoint, they're going to be more methodical about this. More of a standpoint of, "No, we don't need walled gardens, we're just going to go ahead, continue to do business and grow the network." Chad: On the other side, personally, because we know what Indeed does, is that they'll look at doing whatever they can to do one of two things. Either just push their product more, and other products, and force companies to buy their other products as well. We also heard from an insider that if you're pushing job fairs or anything of that nature out there, Indeed will automatically pull those down and say, "You have to buy our Job Fair Product." Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, I see Indeed rocking the boat because that's what they do. But the big question is, do we need Indeed? Joel: Yeah. I think for TMP as well and any other agency, we've heard agencies tell us like, "Hey, we spend a shit-load of money with Clickcast." Chad: Yeah. Joel: And if you're TMP, looking at, "Why don't we just keep all of it? Why not keep all the profits and take the cut that would be ours, maybe lower prices or become more efficient?" It's not only a strategic, looking at what's going to happen with the competitors and losing control over that. But it's also, "Geez, we're going to keep a lot more money if we own the programmatic solutions." Joel: Our insider, I think we agree that buying Perengo was a great decision for TMP, that'll pay dividens in a lot of different angles. I'll be curious to see if another agency comes in and buys a JobAdX or a Joveo, or something like that. Our insider seemed to think that an ATS would be a buyer at some point. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We both agreed Jobvite and iCIMS have a history of buying up cool technologies or emerging technologies. So I don't think either one of us would be surprised at that, if that happens in the next six months or so. Chad: I believe that when you take a look at, obviously, how Indeed's treated the market over the years and the numbers that we've received from some of our programmatic friends throughout the industry. Is that, they only comprise about 15%, around 15% of the overall candidate deliverable. Joel: Yup. Chad: So what can you do, to be able to... And again, this is contingency planning. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Because we know Indeed's history, what do we do to contingency plan for that 15%? Programmatic is obviously the only way to go because you're leveraging a large network, versus just really focusing on that one pipeline. Joel: I was pretty surprised that Indeed only served 10-15% of the sources, of candidates that companies got. I would have thought it might be quite a bit higher. Were you surprised by the 10-15% number? I thought it would be up near 25 or 30. Chad: Yeah, no I was. But I think that's the thing, is that programmatic provides such a wide spread of the opportunity to pressure jobs into all these different areas and do it from a performance standpoint, not in all cases but in many cases. Joel: Yeah. I also remember one of our informants, if you will, talk about I guess Zip Recruiter is beefing up their agency team. SO they're taking a different tack, in terms of getting in bed with the agencies. Chad: Smart, yeah. Joel: As Indeed exits the agency business. Chad: So yeah, why would you want to bloat your organization with more and more and more direct sales people, when you can partner with agencies. Not just one agency, but agencies and have them be your sales people. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Now I understand from a control standpoint, they're not just going to sell your shit. Joel: Yes. Chad: But one again, that's exactly what you want. You want that non-bias. So if you are proving to, not just the agency but the end user, the direct employer, that you are worth it then that should work out for you. Now, if you're not, there's a problem. Joel: Yeah. As Zip Recruiter gets more and more into enterprise, more into AI and technologies, the agency play makes total sense. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: The fact that they're coming in while Indeed exits is just really great timing, on their part. Chad: The beautiful part from StepStone is that Appcast pretty much owns the agency, the recruitment ad agency infrastructure, today. Right? Joel: Yes. Chad: That was brilliant. They're looking for a play in the US. Instead of building job boards, fuck that, there's enough job boards, get into programmatic and make money off of that network. Joel: Yeah. I will say that one of the things that I thought about was the two biggest programmatic plays that aren't in play yet but could, with the flip of a switch become a play, are Google and Facebook. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Which, as we know, are the two biggest online market places for advertising in the world. The minute that you can post a job on Google and then promote it out to their network, AdSense network, that becomes a huge play. They become the biggest programmatic player, and Facebook as well, if they ever decide to do that, would be a huge competitor in the "programmatic advertising business". Chad: Now it's interesting that you mention Google because... Joel: You like that segue? Chad: Yeah. In a TechCrunch article, Area 120, which is Google's lab for experimental projects, launched Byteboard. If you want to know what Byteboard is, it's like HackerRank. Okay? For something that's been out there. It's a new tool that aims to make the technical interview experience less tedious and more effective. Joel: Look, if anyone knows recruiting, employing tech people, Google's pretty good at it. If you want somebody to build something that's efficient, effective, easy to use, intuitive, something that tech people understand, you could do a lot worse that Google. So the fact that Google has essentially created a home-made interviewing tool for techies- Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... that they're releasing to the public, is awesome. I think you and I both agree, that it's just a matter of time before they roll this solution into their hire product. To where you can use your ATS and your talent funnel, to now interview people through Byteboard. Chad: Oh, yeah. So the big question is now, who's going to buy HackerRank? Because we've been talking about that, Dice should have bought them a while ago. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: But HackerRank is a community, it is focused on it being able to provide realistic types of interviews, through coding. Joel: Yup. Chad: From my standpoint, when you're looking at trying to provide interviews for the future and we know development is not going away, this is an entity that everybody should be looking at. Joel: If Microsoft is looking for a bridge between LinkedIn and GitHub, which they bought last year. Chad: Yes. Joel: They could do worse than HackerRank, to sort of bridge the gap between LinkedIn and GitHub, and provide a recruiting solution that benefits both audiences. Chad: Exactly. Total funding for HackerRank, $58.2 million. Joel: Okay. So that's probably out of iCIM's and Jobvite's shopping cart. Chad: Possibly. Joel: You think so? Chad: Possibly. Joel: Okay. But not Microsoft's. Chad: No. Not even close. Joel: Indeed? Chad: Indeed would need to have an applicant tracking system, to be able to plug into something like that, that would make it worthwhile. Joel: They do, it's free. Chad: A real applicant tracking system. Joel: Ouch. Anyway, we'll keep an eye on this and we'll let you know. Subscribe to the show so you get the shreds, we'll definitely shred this baby out when HackerRank gets acquired. Chad: Hell yeah. Joel: Advert, another potential acquiree, JobAdX. JobAdX: Nope, nah, not for me. All these jobs look the same. Ugh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking, as they scroll past your jobs. Just half-heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job-seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? JobAdX: Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job-seekers will stumble upon your employment-branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop off. JobAdX: You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment-branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel, begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites, to proactively compel top talent, to join your team. Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@jobadx.com. Attract, engage, employ, with JobAdX. Joel: Did you know Google now has nine products with a billion plus users? Chad: Fucking ridiculous. Yeah. Joel: Isn't that crazy? Chad: It's awesome, yeah. Joel: That's crazy, right? Photos is the latest one, can you name the other eight? Chad: Gmail, Calendar, Docs, not Hangouts? Joel: YouTube, Search, Chrome... Two you mentioned, so Drive, you said Docs, Drive actually does, I think. Chad: Nice. Joel: Google Play and Android. Chad: It's amazing just how entrenched... Again, they're a lifestyle platform. That's it. Joel: Yeah, we're going to talk about Snapchat and Tik Tok right now, and not even close to any billion-type numbers. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: Google has nine products with a billion users. It's crazy. All right, so yeah. It wouldn't be a show without TikTok, so let's talk about TikTok. But let's talk about Snap real quick, Snap had a comeback quarter, releasing numbers this week. For the first time in their history, they had 200 million monthly active users. We had kind of written them off, we thought Instagram had taken them out. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joel: Younger people that I know, and there aren't a lot, had told me Snapchat was done, like it was over. Apparently not, people are still back, or people are coming back to Snapchat and using it in greater numbers. As we discussed, TikTok... I think TikTok is the only top 10, most popular app right now, that isn't owned by Facebook or Google, or is Snapchat. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's the only one outlier there that's not public. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We wanted to bring up something new that we saw on TikTok, is there's a guy on TikTok that works at Walmart. His user name is what? Tom at Walmart, or something? Chad: Yeah. Joel: He wears his little Walmart vest in all the videos and he basically tells insights into the company. Some of them are funny, some of them are very dark. Right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: He talks about minimum wage, he talks about the... What was the one about Pop-Tarts? When there's a natural disaster, they bulk up on strawberry Pop-Tarts or something? Chad: Yeah, because they have buying patterns during those times. It's like, they know what to stock up on when the prospect of a natural disaster is on the way. Joel: Yeah, and he makes fun of customers, he makes fun of... He basically pulls the veil off of a ton of stuff around Walmart. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joel: There's another TikTok video recently, a couple of girls were having... a lot of younger people are on TikTok. Teenage workers wearing the company outfit, company uniform, doing really stupid stuff and they were actually fired because the boss found out that they had posted these videos on TikTok. unbeknownst to the boss, at the time that they were getting fired, they actually were recording the firing. So they have on Tik Tok, the boss coming in and saying, "Hey, you can't do this. I got to let you go," et cetera. To me, this brings in a whole new era of the employer review, feedback stuff. Chad: Transparency. Joel: Yeah, transparency. For 10 years, employer reviews have been people typing out stuff on Glassdoor and Indeed and all the other sites out there. Chad: Right. Joel: It's morphing into social media, short videos, videos that disappear after 24 hours in many cases. I think it just brings up a totally new realm of managing brand for employers and how the hell do you get a hold of all this stuff. Do you just fire everybody? How do you monitor it, how do you find out about all these people on Tik Tok? Because you can't just do a Google search, you can't just go to Glassdoor and see reviews. You have to be super diligent, and it may even be impossible. It may be the hydra where you cut off one head and 10 grow back, or whatever. Chad: Yes. Joel: I just think it's bringing a while new problem for employers, in terms of managing their brand. Chad: Yes. Well, and I think this comes back to what we've talked about, and many others have, is if you are doing business the right way. If you're treating people the way that you want to be treated, if you have a purpose and that's where your business is focused, instead of profits then, I'm not saying that you should just breathe a sigh of relief because nothing bad's going to happen to you. But if you're doing things for the right reasons and you get caught on tape, so fucking what. That shouldn't be an issue. Okay? And if it is an issue, too bad. What are you going to do? Are you going to make everybody throw their smart phone into a lockbox every time they come in or every time... You can't manage that. Chad: U know what you can manage? You can manage yourself, you can manage how you do things, the purpose and make sure that you're not a fucking asshole. That's what you can do. Joel: Yeah. It's a little bit like, "There is no magic bullet." We've talked about Glassdoor getting essentially hacked, with good reviews and companies that are paying for good reviews and filling up- Chad: Right. Joel: At the end of the day, if you have a shitty work environment, it's going to come out and it's going to impact you negatively, in most cases. The growth of TikTok, Snapchat, and these platforms only underscores the fact that you have no control over your brand. Your brand is what externally happens. More and more, that's out of your control. Chad: I don't agree to that, you're in control of how you treat people and what you do and how you pay people and fairness, and those types of things. Joel: Totally. Chad: I think if you focus on that, controlling that instead of controlling people, that's where we've come. We've gone from the, "You're controlling these people, they're on your team." To, "Now you have to control yourself and how you actually deal with people," because of the transparency of today. I think that's fucking great. Joel: Yeah, I totally agree. I didn't mean you can't control your brand and your purpose and what you do. I just mean, the mediums and the tools that people have now, to communicate with the world are more than they've ever been. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And they're only going to get more, I assume. Chad: Oh, yeah. Yup, yup. Joel: So your ability to clamp down and control that is going away, so you might as well do your best, of what you can control. Which is how you treat people and your message and your purpose. Chad: If you're focusing on being a good human being, I think that's the best we can all go for. Joel: Yeah. And by the way, if you think TikTok is fringe, if you think this guy doesn't get any attention. Chad: Oh, dude. Joel: We're talking in the hundreds of thousands, in terms of... Or, tens of thousands, probably, followers. Hundreds of thousands of likes, on these videos. So these videos are out there and they're getting watched. SO if you think ut doesn't impact you, you're probably wrong. Chad: You are wrong. Joel: Well speaking of wrong, something outsourcing can be a bad decision. Chad: Yes. Especially if you don't have QA/QC behind the individuals that you're bringing in. Joel: Ah. Let's hear from Sovren, to talk about Yahoo! and Kelly. Joel: But I think it underscores the risk that, if you're using Upwork, Fiverr, Freelance Solutions, Gigworkers, you need to be aware that these things are happening or could happen to you. This isn't something that the reviews on the site are going to reveal. When you hire someone on Upwork, you see, "Oh, they've got great reviews, five stars," the last three months or whatever, of clients, they've been really servicing them well. No one's putting on Upwork, two years later, if they don't even know what's going on that, "Oh, they put a logic bomb into our system." Chad: Yeah. If you're allowing contractors to come in, unfettered access to everything and not doing QA/QC, that's on you. Joel: Businesses are being built on contract work, make sure that you're not totally incumbent upon one person to do all your work for you. Chad: Exactly. Or, one person to have access to your social media account. Joel: Yes. Talk about that. Chad: So, this is funny as hell. Jared O'Mara, he's a British politician. He's been in the British Parliament for the constituency of Sheffield Hallam since 8, June 2017 and was elected as a Labor Candidate. Joel: Yup. Chad: Well his Comm's Team went on Twitter and pretty much just laid into him. Here's a Tweet. "I cannot and will not defend you and your vial, inexcusable, contempt for the people who voted you in, you selfish, degenerate prick." That's one Tweet. There's a list of Tweets before the Comm's Team actually says, "Comm's Team signing off, forever. Jared, you are the most disgusting, morally-bankrupt person I have ever had the displeasure of working with. You do not care about your constituents, you do not care about anyone but yourself." Joel: Yeah. Chad: Hello. Joel: I'm assuming he was the only one that knew the password, probably, to the Twitter account? What do you do when this happens? It's just out there for a while. Chad: Yeah. You get this kind of coverage, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, yeah. When your Comm's Team actually comes back and says, "You're a lazy, vile prick," then, yeah. I guess that's all we can go by. Joel: Yeah. And this is when, you mentioned Hootsuite in the shout-outs, a tool like Hootsuite would have helped remedy this situation, in terms of getting it down. Chad: It's your social media account. Let's just make this clear, it's your social media account. Joel: Yeah. Chad: If you want to be authentic, if you want to be genuine, then you should have access, you should have, really, part of at least, if not all, the actual Tweets or the posts or what have you. If you have a Comm's Team, you can have a separate channel for that shit. Joel: Yeah, yeah. This is clearly why Donald Trump is so brilliant, because he has total control over his social media account. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, so some of those Tweets actually sounded like they were talking about Donald Trump. Chad: Yes. Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job-order-intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about out our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N .com. Sovren: We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: So simple, so clean, so smooth, Sovren. Joel: SO you have some issues with Yahoo!'s recent advertising strategy? Chad: Yeah, here it is. So this is from our friend, Audra Knight. She actually finds some of these gems and she shares them with me. So Yahoo! is doing sponsored posts on Facebook. Joel: Yup. Chad: This sponsored post actually says, "Job seekers can use Yahoo!'s search to start their job hunt. Search jobs." Then you click on the ad and it takes you to Yahoo! Search engine results page, which pretty much just has Indeed and Glassdoor. So Yahoo!'s spending money pimping Indeed and Glassdoor, what the fuck? Joel: It shows the state of just utter misery at Yahoo!, that they have to use, what? Facebook? Facebook feed, is that where she found it? Chad: Yeah. Joel: So using Facebook, who they lost social media to, to drive traffic to their search engine that now is powered by Bing, so they lost search to Bing and Google. And they're sharing the revenue that they get from clicks with Bing, who I also think is their advertising platform. So, the state of Yahoo! is so bad that they have to drive traffic from Facebook to their search engine that they lost to from Google, to send people to job sites that aren't HotJobs, which they used to own and lost out to Monster. Joel: So the whole thing is like a trail of death for Yahoo!, that is underscored by them spending money to do this whole process. Chad: This is just fucking dumb. Joel: And the fact that they have money to spend on advertising like that, is also amazing. Chad: Well that money's actually going directly to Indeed, I mean all the clicks. That's going to Indeed. Joel: I'm hoping that they actually have paid advertisers, when you search for jobs. Chad: There's still the margins. It's like, "What the fuck are you doing?" Joel: They may be so good at advertising that they're spending... if they're spending .10 a click on Facebook and getting .50 a click on their search engine, I guess that's a good decision. But we're looking at nickles and dimes here, nothing that really moves the needle for Yahoo! It's a no imagination/creativity department. But you do like the Kelly ads that are out now? Chad: I like Kelly. I like anything that is just not warm and fuzzy. Because we have so much of that now a days. But Kelly, yeah, they have a new campaign that's happening throughout the Midwest right now. From my understanding, it is happening here in Indianapolis as well, but a couple of their ads, they're bus billboard ads. So you know the little billboards that you walk by, as you go into the actual bus stop? Joel: Sure. Yup. Chad: And they're ones like, "Mondays don't suck, your job does, Kelly." "Here's a tip, you can wear headphones at work to drown out the sound of your soul being crushed or you could just get a new job, Kelly." "Pursue your dreams of leaving your job, Kelly." Joel: Yeah. And they have a URL like, "Find a job that doesn't suck," or something? Chad: Yeah, but that's not big enough. That shit should be much, much bigger. Joel: Or they should have a text suck to a short code, and then be able to communicate with them via text. That's a different story. Chad: Yeah. Or a QR code that leads them to a video that- Joel: No, no QR codes. Nope. Chad: Something, something. Joel: Nope, nope. Text. Chad: Something, text, whatever. Joel: "Text Kelly to," whatever short code, "to find your dream job today," is what they should have. Chad: They could have a myriad, they have plenty of room. Let me just say that. Joel: So my beef with this, I know that you like this. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I don't find it all that imaginative. We've been producing ads that say like, "Your job sucks, Monday blows, your boss is a jerk." That's a message that people have been pimping for decades. Although, I guess it's effective, people hate their job, they'll go. I just don't find the campaign all that creative. Call me cynical and old, because I am. I assume the job ads work, but I don't find them as creative and imaginative and good as you do. Chad: I didn't say anything about creative and imaginative, or anything like that. Shit that just works, something that gets your attention. Have I seen ads that say, "Your job sucks."? Yeah. Has it gotten my attention? Yes. So those types of things, very clear, very genuine, very blunt, I like them. If it's been used over and over, kind of like the dead horse, beating the dead horse. Man, if it works, beat it till you can't. Joel: So we agree that there's no imagination in these ads? Ed: Yo, that jawn is so lame. Chad: It's simple, yeah. If you think about, just about everything, most of the ad campaigns that you'll see today, they're regurgitated from something else. There's not much original anymore. Take a look at movies, how many fucking reboots do we get, right? Are they still good movies? Yeah, I'll probably go see some of them. But at the end of the day man, to be able to say that it sucks because it's not new, is total bullshit. To say it sucks because it's not working, whoa yeah, no that makes sense. Joel: You like it and you think it works. I'm just saying, if you're going to spend the money to do this, be creative. Come up with something different. Chad: I say, Kelly, you do whatever works. I don't give a shit if it's been used since back in the Roman times, fucking use that shit. Joel: You know what I say? Chad: We out? Joel: We out. Announcer: This has been The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Recruitment #Agency #Programmatic #Google #Hackerrank #GitHub #Microsoft #Byteboard #ClickIQ #Appcast #Perengo #TMP #Indeed #StepStone

Gerry Tales with industry icon Gerry Crispin was off-the-chain, and this is Part IV of our interview on all-things-recruiting. Enjoy, get smarter and show exclusive sponsor Nexxt some love. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training.​ Chad: Welcome to Volume 4 of Gerry Tales. Joel and I sat down with Gerry Crispin for over an hour and a half and talked history, now and future state of the recruiting industry. This is the fourth installment of our Gerry Crispin series. Enjoy! Chad: After a word from our sponsor. Nexxt: Okay, so you need candidates fast and you're sick and tired of being nickeled and dimed to death. I totally get it. You should check out Flexx Plan from Nexxt. It's perfect for employers and staffing firms who are busy, they need candidates and flexible pricing now. Flexx Plan is also perfect for recruitment ad agencies who need targeted distribution and tools to help demonstrate client ROI. If you're sick and tired of all the BS, hassle and just want candidates now. Check out Nexxt and Flexx Plan with over seventy million members. Nexxt takes all of your jobs and puts each one in front of the best candidates and cross their entire ecosystem. No muss, no fuss, Nexxt does all the work and Flexx Plan makes it cost effective. Check out everything Nexxt has to offer at hiring.nexxt.com. That's hiring.nexxt.com and if you like to save even more cash, just go to chadcheese.com, scroll down and click on the Nexxt logo discounts a plenty. Remember, Nexxt with a double x, not the triple x. Chad: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: The growth of the gig economy. Your own opinion on that but also I know you talk to a lot of employers, particularly some big employers. Is the gig economy on their radar? Are they afraid of it? Are their companies embracing it? What's going on? Gerry: I think that is an excellent question and the data that I would have and the conversations that I've had, because I do have a lot of conversations about this, are that large companies increasingly are recognizing that the gig economy is here. That it's active in their corporation, that they would estimate that something between ten and twenty percent of the people who are working and representing them as a company are probably in a gig situation. Gerry: However, the majority of them would still admit that the control of the decisions around that are not in HR they are in procurement and they're in the throws. The transformation is both now are beginning to take a closer look at that because it does impact engagement, it does impact performance, it does impact a number of things. There are some jobs that will be much more amenable for gig work and there are other jobs that if you put gig workers in them you are potentially going to abuse them for a variety of weird kinds of reasons. Gerry: An example that comes from history is that in the forty's and fifty's, there were some extraordinary problems with mining and the way the government dealt with that - a lot of people were dying in the mines because of safety issues. So to incent companies to participate in that, mining companies were forced to report on a regular basis every month the number of people who were hurt or died in mines. However, there a was a weird kind of thing about that. They only had to report full time worker injuries. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Gerry: So, what they did was they eliminated full-time workers and made them part-time workers. Chad: Loop holes, man. Gerry: And the reporting showed that mining injuries and deaths went down by enormous amounts and so the government thought wow there's a lot more safety being installed in mines. So, I use that as an example because it's so graphic, right? Think about this, we have laws in our country that have to do with when you need to give people benefits. Chad: Right. Gerry: And so you have to have so many hours before you get so much benefits. Chad: Right. Gerry: Some companies like Starbucks voluntarily give part-time workers full benefits. Chad: Yeah. Gerry: Which attracts a better class of worker, if you will. Chad: Yep Gerry: So we need to think about who should be a gig worker and who shouldn't and whether or not the company is benefiting in ways that they should not, or might actually abuse the workers themselves. Chad: Well and I think today, I mean we're much more connected so back in the coal mining days there wasn't a message board or a platform for reviews of this employer on that sight. So, I think some of that abuse is definitely gonna go away because it's more transparent 'cause people are actually out there saying these guys are assholes. Here's the thing, and here's my question to you, Jerry. We just know a good friend of mine actually just started a position at Uber Works in Chicago so we see Uber Works is starting up and then we have other organizations that are freelance platforms, the snags of the world. Gerry: Upwork Chad: Communos, which are for creatives... Gerry: CDP bought after market, as well. Chad: Yeah, so we have all these, they're all coming out and because it is so much more of a transparent obviously market, if we do have some kind of universal health care system. Don't you think it makes it much easier for someone to be able to float from job to job and say whether they want to work for that company or not and know that they don't have to Gerry: True Chad: Go into an FTE type of position? Gerry: Yes, for there's a whole group of people who enjoy it, are comfortable with it, et cetera. But, keep in mind there's also a strong percentage of people in our country who want the safety and security of a simple job that they can go to every day and at least pretend that they can go to it for the rest of their life. I'm not saying they should get it, I am saying that all of us are built a little different and I'm very comfortable not knowing where my next dollar is coming. Chad: Yeah, but don't you think Uber and those types of platforms for somebody who wants to work part-time and wants to work when they wanna work, they can just pick up a phone and say okay I'm gonna go work at wherever I'm certified. I can just go ahead and pick up a shift and do that or drive my car. Gerry: I'll bet, though that the most interesting persona within the uber community are people who are in fact working at a job, and picking up an Uber shift. Chad: Side hustles. Gerry: As a side hustle. So the side hustle person, who's a little more energetic in saying I need to make a little bit of extra money is really the persona for many of these gig works and I think that's really where the value is going to be, as opposed to the full-time piece. Chad: Gotcha. Gerry: The side hustle is the cool piece and I talk to Uber drivers on a regular basis and I say well who are you and they're typically students or a side hustle. I don't come across too many at all who are full-time Uber drivers. Chad: Gotcha. I'm gonna do a little pivot and talk about diversity. I know that you guys on the diversity recruiting and sourcing side of the house, you definitely cover that and I guarantee you that your clients are wanting to talk to you about that. In my experience, whether it's Veteran hiring, or individuals with disabilities, or just really any diverse group I hear a lot of people talking about it. The problem is I don't see enough dollars and/or resources that are really earmarked for these types of programs to be able to create sustainable types of talent pipelines. What do you say? What kind of companies are really sticking out and do you think that this is going to be a trend that is just going to have to be the standard, or do you think it's just a lot of fluff? Gerry: I think that there is a strong group of companies that go behind compliance right now, and have huge investment in insuring that the diversity of thought, diversity in every form is represented within their organization. The key here is that these are industry leading companies, these are successful companies, these are high brand companies, these are the companies that are out in the street, if you will, and known by organizations. Chad: Gotcha. Gerry: All right, so I'm differentiating and so my experience is because most of my members represent that. They are companies that hire probably more than five thousand people a year. They're companies that are probably close to, if not, the industry leader in their respective area. They are well-known companies within organizations, so they sense from a values point of view the criticality of that. And they are intent on improving, not all of them have figured out how to do it well. Gerry: Let me give you one example of a trend that I think is happening among retail firms. Retail firms buy in large if you looked at their talent acquisition organizations they'd say oh we hire two hundred thousand people a year or we hire fifty thousand people a year, but I'm only responsible for corporate. We send information to the stores. They handle all of their hiring. Chad: Yeah. Gerry: We don't know what they do. Chad: Right. Gerry: Right? Chad: Right. Gerry: That would've been few years ago. Now, because of the data, they know what they do and you know what? They're not doing a good job at the stores. Chad: Yeah Gerry: And so, if you start looking at these big retail organizations, more and more of them are taking over the store hiring. Now that's not a simple issue. Chad: No. Gerry: But, I won't name the company, but two weeks ago we had an operations colloquium. We had a meeting, my meetings are fifty people or fewer from member companies and we had a presentation by a large retail organization and they gave a case study of last year, and this is the forth year that they have taken over centrally hiring all store employees. But last year they hired, and this is not the total amount of their hires, this is an expanding pilot if you will. Last year they hired fifty four thousand store employees with no recruiters and no hiring managers. Chad: Yeah, high volume stuff, man. Gerry: And they can measure that turnover is better, performance is approximately the same, however they define it. And other measures were the same. Their ROI was based on the fact that they were able to give back literally hundreds of thousands of hours back to the store hiring managers. Who now could spend time actually managing, rather than hiring. Chad: Right. Gerry: But, they also demonstrated significant shift in diversity. Chad: Which way? Gerry: So, there's some really strong evidence that a lot of corporations in the use of technology in the future that have sort of ignored the peripheral sides, but also the high volume sides of their organizations. Now they're coming back to more of a central approach to doing it well. So, practices and I will tell you in ever yo ne of my meetings during the course of the year, and I have one just about every month, there is a focus on diversity within it. So I don't have a meeting that specifically focuses on diversity, diversity is an intrical part of every subject and every topic that we deal with because that's our society from the United States. We recognize that, at least conceptually, our organizations ought to reflect a little bit of who we are as a society. Chad: Was that mainly a platform that did that? Gerry: No, that was cobbled together, you know again it's a tech stack and they're still experimenting with the tech stack. It's the biggest issue we have right now. Companies are just overwhelmed with the tens of thousands of TA point solutions platforms systems and other bullshit that's out there and how do you put pieces together when almost all of them overlap in weird ways. It's a fascinating problem that we're still going to be faced with for the next five to ten years. Chad: Gotcha. Joel: Gerry the jobs report came out today, and needless to say, things are good. Job growth is beating analyst estimates, we got wage growth, I mean things are good. Now, in your lifetime you've seen at least a handful of recessions, I'm assuming. Gerry: Yes, I have. Joel: What, if anything, is going to derail the good times, what does the next recession look like? Gerry: I wish I could predict it because I could make a freaking' fortune doing that, right? Anybody who could actually predict when that recession's gonna come, can actually really do well. Joel: So I'm hearing none of your members are expressing concern about global growth. Gerry: No, no they're not. They're actually not and my experience is nobody ever gets it until it hits them and there's no evidence currently about that. I did think, and this was last year, was it last year? I'm sorry, it was the year before last, that it might trigger in 2018 and so I had an economist talk at one of our leadership meetings and he basically couldn't find anything in the future and I kept in touch with him and he still doesn't think he sees stuff in the next six months to a year. Gerry: I have my own approach which is to go to SourceCon because I figure the first group of folks who are going to be cut will be sourcers. And if so I go to a room of five hundred sourcers and they're happy, that means somebody is giving them work that's going to take them six months. And if they're upset because they're being told there's no work beyond whatever, then I know they're starting to cut back. And so that has been my canary in the mind for a few years and kinda worked closed to 2007, kinda worked around 2001, as well which is the last time. We've had a long, long run. It's been slow, it has ups and downs in certain industries, but I have to say right now we are in a reasonable, still economy and everybody I know out there is attempting to hire, if not more, attempting to hire better and investing in talent acquisition. Gerry: I don't see many people cutting at all. Joel: Yeah, and it the next sourcing recession brought on by AI, as opposed to a bad economy? Gerry: Yeah, or do we continue to evolve what the roles are in recruiting? I mean, if you look at the role of somebody in twenty years ago, what they did is nothing like what you see people doing today. Chad: Keep an eye and ear out for Gerry Tales, coming soon. So wash out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my step-dad, the Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. Tristen: They made me say that. Tristen: The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive shiny gold pair that are extra because, well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #GerryTales #GerryCrispin #GigEconomy #Economy

It's been a week since tearin' shit up in London, and the boys are psyched to get back to the weekly round-up show. And the hits just keep on rollin'. -- Appcast, ClickIQ, Perengo and GermanPersonnel!?! WTF? -- Microsoft's LinkedIn bet is paying off -- Chatbots MUST disclose in CA -- Amazon is on strike or wait... no strike? and summer camps in London and Barcelona have taken a turn for the worst. Without Sovren, Canvas and JobAdx this jawn wouldn't be happenin' so give them your undivided attention. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions helps companies find talent in the largest minority community in the world – people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: It's so hot. Damn it's hot in the Mid-West right now. Chad: It's so hot. Joel: It's about to get hotter when we burn up these microphones with podcasting brilliance. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast everyone, I'm your cohost Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's episode, there's some serious Pac Man fever in the programmatic advertising space, kids in Europe can now go to the worst summer camp in human history, and we debate who's nuttier, the Swedes or Elon Musk. Chad: Turn your fan to high and grab a cold one, the show starts right after this word from our sponsor, Canvas. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas Bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology, and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy, and are laser focused on recruiter's success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: So Amber from Canvas, was supposed to come get a T-shirt. She's been giving me hell on Twitter about getting a T-shirt, we had a box full of them, and she never came and got one. Joel: She had to be called away, I believe. I don't know if it was her fault, but yeah. Chad: It was totally her fault. Joel: For as long as it took me to get a Goddamn cuzi, yeah. She can lose out on the shirt. Dude, I've never been so excited to get to the end of the show, as I have at the beginning of this show. Our wrap up of just ridiculous stories is unprecedented, I think, in the history of our show. Chad: It is pretty fucking funny. Let's go ahead and hit shout outs then. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Let's do this. All right so first shout out to Tom, who's the head of product over at Appcast, he loved that we would take Appcast over Glassdoor all fucking day. Easy decision Tom. And then Matt Lozar said that, he liked the Appcast all fucking day comment, and we should put that on a T-shirt. So I'm thinking we might be able to kind of have this Appcast logo on the back, Chad Cheese on the front, and then it just says Appcast all fucking day. I love it. Chad: Yo, that' John is so lame. Joel: I love it too. Can we still give shout outs to RecFest, I know that it's been a week or so, but I think we're still partying on the inside from our time in London. Jamie and company did- Chad: Yes. Joel: ... a great job, we loved our time there in London, and look forward to future RecFests as well as a potential global domination plan. Chad: You never know, right? You never know. Chad: I came home to some SmashFly goodies. Had some caramel corn, had some... this crazy tea device, I don't drink tea, but Julie loves it. And then go figure, Jay Z sends us chocolate balls, chocolate salty balls. Chocolate covered Bourbon balls, so good stuff. And a bunch of other stuff, but I just had to call this out. Joel: So the best of both worlds. Chad: Yeah, why not. Joel: Bourbon balls, that's nice. That's nice Jay Z. The good news is, we both received our box of goodies at the same time. Usually, one of us gets screwed over, or one of us has to wait. So they were good with the timing on this one, that was nice of them. Joel: A shout out to the boys at Talent Nexus. Chad: Yes. Joel: Man we've talked a lot about the cameras following us around, but hype videos, a little documentary. Can't wait for that stuff to come out. If you want to sign up for the download of the, I don't know, Chad and Cheese movie,- Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... or whatever we're calling it, head on over to chadcheese.com, click the link and put in your name, and you'll get the copy. Chad: Yeah. Or, go to talentnexus.com/chadcheese. Too damn easy, right? Joel: Yeah, yeah. Chad: Also- Joel: Run with Talent Nexus anyway, they're good folks. Chad: Really awesome that Gem had us over, and Rob Prince showed us around for two solid days. From pub to pub in most cases, but thanks guys, really appreciate the hospitality. That was amazing. Joel: And Rob is what, 27? I'm sure the last thing he wanted to do was escort around two old white dudes in London. Yeah, that's nice. Chad: Dude, we were going from pub to pub. I don't think he had an issue. Joel: Yeah, yeah. It was a pretty good time. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's hard not to have a good time there in jolly old London. Chad: Yeah. And that being said, Lisa Scales wins the free beer for a year from Talent Nexus. Joel: Did she pick beer? Did she officially pick beer? Chad: I think she's officially picked beer, but- Joel: Good for you, Lisa. Chad: Yeah. So looked at Twitter, and it was funny because she didn't even take a picture of herself in the Chad Cheese mask. She actually took a picture of three other people who were posing, and that was incredibly smart for her, because it was more a group participation. And guess who, the group overall doesn't get the beer, Lisa gets the beer. Joel: Hopefully she'll share a few bottles with those guys who are in the picture. Chad: Don't do it. Joel: Speaking of also staying in London, shout out to Kylie Roco, I believe I'm saying that last name correctly. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So this was great. You and I go on stage, and she Tweets out, "It's time for..." What was your nickname? Chad: Stone Cold Steve Austin and Jonah Hill giving out- Joel: And Jonah Hill. Chad: ... giving out shots in the main... It was like she was telling everybody. She took a picture and then she said, "Stone Cold Steve Austen and Jonah Hill giving out shots in the main tank." Kind of letting everybody know, hey there's hard liquor coming, come get it. Joel: I'm sorry, I don't... Jonah Hill just doesn't do it for me. So anyway, I Tweeted back to her and I said, "Jonah Hill, come on. Seth Rogen, I've heard that one before, and I can sort of deal with Seth Rogen. At least he gets the cute girls in the movies." And she replied back, "Oh yes, I met Seth Rogen, Jonah Hill was just the first name that came to mind." I don't know if she was just trying to make me feel better,- Chad: Yes. Joel: ... or if that was the truth, but either way, she gets a shout out. Chad: Oh, yeah. She was just being nice. So more shout outs for goodies. AIA Worldwide, which is TMP's European branch, I guess you could say. Joel: No doubt. Chad: They took us to dinner, gave us beer, coffee, chocolates. And here's the biggest thing, I said in the last podcast, I had a great conversation with Richard Collins at ClickIQ about how they should be gobbled up, and then the next day they were and he's like... So he didn't spill the beans, but the night before we were having dinner with pretty much TMP and they didn't spill the beans on the acquisition of Perengo. So I have to say the discipline I respect, but have you... can you not say, "Hey, this is off the record?" I mean, come on people. Joel: It clearly means we need to get drunker with people then we already are, so the truth serum starts flowing. Joel: Shout out to Doug Monroe,- Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: ... Indeed user who shared on LinkedIn this week. This guy's the co-founder of Adzuna, by the way. Chad: Okay. Joel: So not some scrub at some company. So he shared, "Tried to unsubscribe from an Indeed e-mail, spoiled for the choice." The choices he got to opt out of an e-mail from Indeed are number one, only send me e-mails that I've asked for, or number two, send me marketing communications and e-mails that I've asked for. Chad: It's the non- Joel: So either way- Chad: ... opt out. Joel: ... it sounds like you're still getting e-mails from Indeed. Chad: Yes. Joel: You just get to kind to pick your poison of how. Chad: That's not an opt-out. Yeah, that's not an opt-out, that's not what that is called, because there is no opting out. You're just choosing what you're opting for. Joel: Opt out, no opt out. Opt in, opt out. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Chad: That's a fucked up opt out. Chad: Yeah, so are you ready to go to events? Joel: Yeah, let's do events. Chad: Okay. So events, September 24, 25th TA Tech North America in Austin. Joel: It'll be hot. Chad: We're going to be doing a death match. Everybody loves a death match man. We just finished one in Portugal, going to do one in September in Austen, and fucking awesome dude. Joel: So everyone might be the charm. I mean, one and two were pretty epic, but three might be the... I'm trying to... What movies was the third installment the best? Toy Story? Chad: Rocky. Joel: Ivan Drago, or was that Mr. T? Chad: That was Mr. T as Clever Lang. Joel: What's your prediction for the fight? Chad: Pain. Joel: Great movie. All right, Rocky Three you're going to pick. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I'm going to go with Toy Story Three as my favorite. I've not seen the fourth one though. Chad: Yeah, you can tell you have a tear. Joel: I kind of teared up when I watched Toy Story Three. Chad: You always tear up. So October 1st through the 4th, Jobcase is actually sending us to HR Tech in Vegas. Joel: Who you will remember by the way, pretty much banned us from the show last year. This year they were open arms, come do some shit, do the show, it's going to be awesome. Chad: Two days. Dude, we're doing two separate days in the expo hall- Joel: Yeah. Chad: ... doing or spiel. So they also have a discount code, CHADCHEESE, one word. It's like 300 bucks off, go check it out, and you're welcome. Joel: $300, damn. Go ahead. You could lose that real fast in Vegas. Chad: Yeah, yeah. So October 22nd and 23rd, SmashFly, our friends over there who give us goodies, are sending us to unleash Paris. Again, we're going to be on the expo hall doing our thing there, which I like. Being among the people, people are there, at Chad Cheese, it's epic. Joel: Love Paris, especially I've never been in October. It's going to be lovely. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: It's going to be beautiful. Chad: It's going to be great. So at that point you would think that rounds up pretty much our world tour, but we actually have four new editions. So if you haven't checked out the Chad Cheese world tour list, go to chadcheese.com, click on events in the upper right corner, we're adding Sweden. We're going to TNG, Tengai live, so we're going to do a live pod from there. Tengai: Hi, this is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot. Chad: And Tengai actually spun off into its own company. So that's also big news. Joel: Remember the old James Brown shows where he'd act like he was too tired to go on,- Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... and he would start exiting the stage, and then he'd throw off the cape and do more shows? That's what we are. Chad: Yeah, exactly. Joel: We're the James Brown of the podcast tour business, which I think is just us doing it. So there's not a lot of competition, but we are the James Brown of our industry. Thank you very much. Chad: And in September, Recruit a nation live in San Francisco at the JobVite's show. Then we're going to iCIMS's Influence in November in Scottsdale, Talent Net in December in Dallas. I mean, when you looked at our original lineup, it was like, "Fuck man, that is pretty aggressive," and then add four more shows onto that. Joel: That's what my wife said, not you. By the way guys, Chad's trying to get me to do Yoga at the ISAM show in Scottsdale. I'm not real sure about that. Chad: I think that is... We're going to have a camera crew there while we do it. Joel: Yeah. #noyogayoga #chadcheese, if you think I should do yoga. Chad: Let's do the show. Joel: Let us do it. Dude, I need to start a fucking programmatic advertising solution, because they're getting bought up like hot cakes right now. Chad: Too late. The arms race goes on, and we didn't know, but a little company called Compana was actually bought up by the Riverside company who owns German Personnel, which is a programmatic company, and they've- Joel: Compana. Chad: ... combined... Yeah, so- Joel: Bless you. Chad: Yeah. So it seems like there's some acquisitions happening across the pond. Those are German companies I believe, overall. Before we get to the main course, which are ones that we all know, Step Stone obviously bought Appcast. Joel: Yeah, it's a blitzkrieg. Chad: It's freaking... I mean, it's crazy. Joel: The Germans. Chad: Then after smacking Indeed square in the face, Indeed comes back and says, "Aha, we're going to buy ClickIQ," Richard Collins and the group, and then we land in the US and the very next fucking day, TMP buys Perengo. Joel: Four deals in 45 days I think, if our math is correct- Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... and it's still heating up. So whose next, whose going to be bought up next? And we commented recently that Joveo has been really quiet lately. Chad: They have been quiet. It's either bad that they've been quiet, because nobody's over there, or somebody should check for a pulse, or maybe somethings happening. Who knows? I know that obviously the Recruitics team, it's interesting, did they go the wrong direction in becoming an agency instead of focusing on analytics and programmatic? Joel: That is a question for another show maybe. Chad: Yeah, we might have to have that as a segment all to itself. Joel: Maybe- Chad: I think- Joel: Maybe they're just on the phone all day fielding offers, eBay style, and just waiting for the clock to run out. Chad: We'll figure it out. I think the biggest question right now for these three, TMP, Step Stone / Appcast and Indeed with ClickIQ is, do they play together nicely, or do the walled gardens start to appear? Joel: The walled gardens have to start to appear? Chad: Where first? Joel: The algo's favoring their properties, as it's going to happen. You won't be able to prove it, there won't be any transparency, but it's going to happen. When staffing companies buy job boards, and job boards... All these companies are going to favor their own properties, that's just the way it works. Chad: That's smoke and mirrors, right? Joel: I give a good amount of credit to Appcast that they'll probably hold out the algorithm the longest, but ultimately... You don't think TMP's going to act in TMP's best interest? Chad: Well, I personally believe that TMP, I don't know this for sure, but I believe TMP is going to swat everybody else away, and Perengo is their product, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So they're going to integrate that with Talent Brew, and off you go. So if a client comes to them and they're using Appcast, which to be quite frank, most of these direct employer types of companies, are coming to agencies so that the agencies can do their shit, not so that they can take over their vendor relationship, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So from that standpoint, it's like, "Oh, you don't have to worry about it, we have all of your different job site destinations taken care of with our programmatic offering through Talent Brew, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, I think that's an easy one to understand from my standpoint. The big question for me is, does Indeed pull their content out of all the other programmatic platforms, just to have it in ClickIQ? Joel: That would depend on how much revenue I guess they'd have to lose over it in the short term. In the long term, if ClickIQ becomes the number one programmatic solution because they're the only one with Indeed, well, that becomes kind of good for Indeed and ClickIQ. Chad: Yes. Joel: And kind of fucks everybody else. Chad: Well, and what is Indeed good at doing? Joel: Fucking everybody else? Chad: Exactly right. I mean, right now ClickIQ- Joel: Boom chicka bow wow. Chad: ... Appcast is really the infrastructure for the agency game here in the US, and abroad for many cases, so they are really the lion's share of how that works from an infrastructure standpoint. So let's say tomorrow through Appcast, you can no longer get any type of traffic or clicks from Indeed, because Indeed just threw up that walled garden? Joel: Oh. Chad: Yeah. So I mean that's the... We've seen them do this shit with... obviously with job boards, with staffing companies, sometimes with big fortune brands. So they're saying, "I'm sorry, you're not meeting the quality that we're looking for." Which means you're not getting any free traffic, you're going to just have to pay for your traffic. So this is... It seems like it's the Indeed playbook, but it's going to go in more of a programmatic scale. Joel: Yeah, and they better do it soon while they're still relevant. Chad: Yes. Joel: Because 10 years from now, no-one will care. Chad: Five. Joel: Oh, okay, go five. I was being generous. Chad: That was nice of you. Joel: The heat, the heat man. The heat. All right, programmatic stays hot, and I'm sure we'll have more stories in the weeks to come. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Another company that's still on fire is LinkedIn. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Seeking Alpha is one of my go-to's for anything like public company and business story related, and they have a story out this week. Microsoft, LinkedIn bet is paying off better than expected. So a guy wrote an article... LinkedIn is just killing, and you give me shit about drinking the cool aid, but the numbers don't lie, and where LinkedIn is going, is pretty impressive. So the article somehow is from LinkedIn standalone revenue within Microsoft, is close to being $10 billion by 2022, which makes that investment pay off pretty quickly at that rate. You just look at the numbers going down. 630 million members, they're one of the few social networks that's actually worldwide. They're still in China. 70% of LinkedIn users are from outside the US, so you look at global growth, it's impressive. Over 30 million companies using it to post 20 million job openings. Joel: 90 million of LinkedIn users are senior level people. 63 million are decision makers in their positions. Three million NBA graduates. It goes on and on from a member's perspective, from a revenue perspective. Once GDPR kicks in and all that, all the privacy laws, LinkedIn is going to be in the cat-bird seat. They're covering solutions for hiring, marketing, selling, education. I mean, they're just crushing it dude. I don't know why you're such a hater on LinkedIn. Chad: I think what they do now, which is really being able to monetize the data and the content that they have, I've never been a hater on that, it's what they can do next outside of that, right? So being able to add an applicant tracking system, and all these new perspective platforms that can plug into it. I just... I'm not seeing that. What they do better than anybody, obviously, is monetize the types of data that they have. Now Facebook does a pretty good job, and they even have a bigger reach, the thing is, they haven't been able to figure out, or maybe just they aren't spending enough time, or really care to understand this industry. Joel: Yeah. Chad: But I believe if they had focus, and they had priority in this segment, they would kick ass and take names. The big question is, will that ever happen? Joel: Yeah, ultimately, Google and Facebook are probably the only ones who can give LinkedIn / Microsoft real competition. If I'm anyone in the ATS space or below, I'm going to carve a niche out, but I'm not going to be something that LinkedIn is doing now. Chad: So they say they have anywhere from 610 to 630 million profile users, whatever, in the system, which is awesome. The big question is, what about an organization like Jobcase? They are US centric, but the thing is, they are appealing to the 70% that LinkedIn is not, and what could an organization do if, I don't know, maybe they acquired a Jobcase? Joel: Yeah. And I think it's really early to put Jobcase in the same position. Chad: Yes. Joel: I mean, acquisition obviously changes things overnight. I mean, we were talking about when LinkedIn was acquired by Microsoft, that Microsoft was going to fuck it up like Yammer or any of the other acquisitions that happened business wise- Chad: But they left it alone. Joel: Yeah. I mean, they put resources into it. They integrated into Microsoft 365, and put AI resources. I mean, clearly Microsoft is... The care and feeling for LinkedIn is real, they're serious about building the business and integrating it into Microsoft. I think more AI tools are coming to LinkedIn. The growth both by professionals, they are ahead by a country mile in terms of professionals on the platform using it on a regular basis. And you also look at the Facebook privacy issues, LinkedIn for better or worse, hasn't had those issues and maybe they won't. And I'm not saying that LinkedIn will become the next Facebook, I don't think that's what they want to be. And they won't be the next TiK ToK. But anyway, I just think they're in a great position, and they're on cruise control. Chad: So this week, it was hilarious, because I've started to notice some very scantily clad pictures of females on LinkedIn. And my question is, when did cat fishing start on LinkedIn? Because I received... While I was in London, I had a ton of LinkedIn invites, and I was going through and I was, "Okay, good enough," and I was really being lazy to be quite frank. I was pretty much accepting them all, and then I get a message from one... their name was, Loving Franca. And it was a picture of a very voluptuous female showing a lot of cleavage, and her question was, "I would like to start a relationship." I'm like, block. Joel: So in Loving's defense, you did connect with her, or him, or whatever was on the other side of that. Chad: Whatever, yeah, yeah. Joel: And then instantly got, "I want to build a relationship?' Chad: It was pretty instantaneous. Joel: I would have like to see where that had gone if you had said, "Yes." What would have happened? Would they have asked you for money? Would they have asked you to give them your contact information? Anyway, we won't know because you said goodbye for obvious reasons. But I think if you talk to the old timers that have been using LinkedIn for 20 years, LinkedIn's not that quite old, let's say 15 years, that they would tell you that this shit's been going on for a long time. I think that it's becoming more as LinkedIn grows, and as Facebook gets a little bit stricter and maybe more conscientious about real versus fake profiles, and Twitter's been a mess for a long time. But no-one uses Twitter like they used to anymore. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah, I think it's been going on a long time now. Whether or not it's been on hyper drive because of what's going on at Facebook and others, I don't know. But cat fishing and trying to get you to connect with a sexy young thing, even though it's probably a 65-year-old male on the other end managing it- Chad: In Russia. Joel: Yeah, in Russia, yeah, that's been going on for a long time. Chad: On LinkedIn? Joel: There are people, by the way, that connect with you and immediately sell you shit. Chad: Yes. Joel: Does that work for people? Chad: I don't know. Joel: That can't work. Chad: I don't know. I just know that if you come straight to me after I just... I mean, the first interaction is, I want to try to sell you something, I automatically block you. Because that's the dumbest shit to be able to just cold right into it, and think that, that's what this platform is used for. Joel: And more and more I connect with people based on who they're connect with, that I trust. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I like to put out a public service message to say, "Look, let's be more selective with our LinkedIn connections, because we're all sort of connecting because of other people connecting, and it's a vicious cycle of trust misguided." So let's all be more careful about connecting with Loving, whoever that was, and actually connecting with real people who can help us do our jobs- Chad: Don't do it. Joel: ... and connect in the real world. Chad: Don't do it. Joel: Speaking of something you should do- Chad: Yes. Joel: ... is listen to this next advertisement from our sponsor Sovren, and we'll be right back to talk about Amazon Prime Day's Strike, No Strike. It'll be fun. Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suit of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: At least the software's not trying to cat fish me. Joel: And if it's a chat bot in California, you know there's a robot on the other end of it. Chad: California Love. Yeah so, a story out of Courts- Joel: Going back to Cali- Chad: ... a new California law is pretty much making chat bots disclose that they're actually chat bots. California Governor, Jerry Brown signed regulations into law last Friday, September 30th, that should make it easier for Californians to know whether they're speaking to a human or a bot. Do job seekers care? Joel: I think people probably care. There's this whole government versus AI automation that we've talked about. We've seen in Illinois with interviewing, you've got to tell them it's an... AI is reading their facial expressions, or voice and what not, and I think it's just going to happen. What I want to know is, how is California passing laws so quickly? They're passing shit like, if you're building a house it has to have solar panels on it. They're passing, if it's a chat bot. They pass stuff so quickly, I want to know what they're drinking, or what they're doing in California to pass these laws? Chad: They don't have Mitch McConnell in California, is that what you're trying to say? Joel: I don't know what it is, because I'm not attuned to the state legislature in California, but I just know that they pass laws over lunch. And it's either impressive, or really scary depending on your perspective. Chad: Yeah, depending. I mean, this could perspectively impact more than just chat bots, because- Joel: Oh yeah. Chad: ... what's the difference between writing a script for a bot that sends e-mails, and replies on the behalf of a human. And we see this on the sales side, and the marketing side with the Marketo's of the world, and those types of platforms. So what's the difference? What's the actual definition of a bot when it comes to the disclosure of this regulation? If a bot pulls together an e-mail, sends it, does it have to say that in the signature line, created by bot? Joel: Well, look at automation and voice. So if I talk to a robot, do they have to say, "Hi, I'm a robot, can we schedule your next hair appointment," or whatever it is, right? At what point do you have... Ultimately, everything will be robotic and automated, so everything that you do in life will have a little disclosure like, "I'm a robot," even though everyone will know it's a robot, because we'll all know that everything is automated. Chad: Yeah. There's going to be a terms of slight... One of those. If you're using Duplex, there's a terms of service, and in the terms of service I'm sure it would say, "You're going to be speaking to a bot, and we're going to collect all your data, and..." I mean, just all this shit. So I think that's the easy part, it's something- Joel: I don't know that it does. Duplex should... If Duplex is like, "Hey Google, schedule a hair appointment for next Tuesday," and then they call the salon and schedule an appointment for you, and then they put it into your Google calendar, I don't think there's any sort of disclosure when your robot calls the salon, that, "Hey, I'm a robot, scheduling an appointment for John my master," or whatever it is. Chad: I think it could easily say, "Hey, this is Google Duplex calling for Chad, want to do a hair appointment, Ha that's funny." So that's all just verbiage, the way that you actually place it up. And the person on the other end of the phone, are they going to care if they get business through this- Joel: No. Chad: ... or not? I don't think they'll care. It's just like the job seekers, right? I don't believe job seekers give a shit that a bot is interacting with them,- Joel: No. Chad: ... because for years, they received no interaction. It was totally black hole. Now if a bot reaches out to them, they're like, "Oh my God, these guys actually care." Joel: Which also goes to the, what's the penalty if it doesn't, right? So one, someone's actually going to have to report that, "Hey, they're not telling me that it's a chat bot." And then number two is, what's the penalty if you're guilty? So we already know that if you're texting without permission, the government will fuck you up. They will fuck you up big time. So there's actual lead... whatever. We won't get into this, but basically, there are people that will try to find people who aren't opting in, or have an opt in, and then they find a way to sue you. There's a whole industry around that. Anyway, for a different show. But if the penalty is a slap on the hand, and no-one really cares, then who gives a shit about this law anyway. But if the penalty is like, $5000 for every message sent by a robot, then holy shit, a lot of people are going to care, and a lot of people will try to profit from it on the legal side of the house. Chad: There you have it. Joel: There you have it. Okay, Striking at Amazon. Did you purchase anything on Prime Day this week? Chad: I did not. I'm not much of a shopper. I'm sure Julie did though, because she loves her Amazon Prime. Joel: Yeah, we bought the kids iPads this week. Chad: Oh, smart. Joel: An epic deal on iPads. So they need it for school anyway, so we were able to do that. So we benefited from it, however, there is some mix up in the news, I guess dueling reports here, that was a strike in Minnesota. Chad: Right. Joel: The story you shared was, people in the street with pitchforks, marching into Amazon. And then the counter story from Amazon, which is fun, is basically that these people were paid, but only 15 people actually sort of marched on Amazon. And this was all sort of a group that was politically motivated and they paid people, et cetera. So I tend to believe Amazon, that there probably a ton... I mean, Amazon is not unionized, there's no Jimmy Hoffer behind Amazon managing and organizing all these workers. They probably all would lose their job potentially if they went out on strike. So I sort of believe that this was more of a group... anti-Amazon group trying to stir up some trouble there in good old, peaceful Minnesota. Chad: Yeah. Peaceful Minnesota, where they still have to piss in garbage cans to make their quotas. I think we're focusing on the wrong thing, how many people showed up versus are they actually receiving a fair wage, and prospectively treated like robots who will pretty soon probably be replaced by robots? So that's the thing. Okay, Amazon Prime Day, we're going to walk out, there are a bunch of people with signs, who knows, paid not paid. Who was actually sticking up for these individuals, right? Because if you feel like you are the only person who can stick up for yourself, and you don't have a union of people, or a group of people, or somebody to ensure that the right things happening for the betterment of all of those employees, you feel helpless. You feel helpless. Joel: Yeah. Chad: It's not how many people marched, are their practices really fair? And from what we've heard, from haptic bracelets, pissing in trash cans and a bunch of other stuff, we can't... Whether you believe Amazon or not, I don't give a fuck. All those other things, are the things that I care about. Making sure that people get paid and they get treated well. Joel: I'm just appalled that your wife, of all people, is supporting this kind of behavior with her wallet. And you can pass that along to her. Chad: Yeah, I will. Yeah, a shout out Julie Sowash on that one. Way to end that segment. Joel: Wait I've got to... There you go Julie, it's all your fault. All your fault. All right let's hear a quick word from our buddies at JobAdX, and we'll go to the meat of the show, the good stuff here at the end. JobAdX: Finding the right fit is important when you're deciding on shoes for a long day at the trade show, when you're picking the right podcast for your commute, and most importantly, when you're looking for the right candidate. With JobAdX, you can attract more relevant engaged candidates to your jobs, by harnessing the best in ad tech targeting. From predictive industry analysis and keyword click data, to premium first page placement, and reducing redundant applications, our candidate targeting technology ensures that you're reaching talent that's as interested in working with you as you are with them. JobAdX: Now with in ad video and multi-media, you can share your employer brand story and company culture with job seekers so they can visualize themselves in your office, all hands meeting or axe throwing team building adventure, all without navigating away from your job posting. Increased engagement makes for fewer steps between job seeker and new team member. Ready to ramp up your job advertising campaigns with the best in ad tech, visit our new website at www.jobadx.com. That's J-O-B-A-D-X.com. Joel: Chad did you ever go to summer camp? Chad: Yeah. Before we get there, I'd like to get some vindication in here. I just checked the Amazon account, and no purchases actually happened yesterday during- Joel: Oh. Chad: ... Prime Day, so Julie is vindicated and stepping back from her Amazon purchases. Take that Joel Cheesman. Joel: All right. So what retailer of choice does Julie recommend for the best wages and working conditions? Chad: All right, you'd have to get her on the podcast to ask that one. Joel: We need some Sowash endorsement for- Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... our retail audience out there. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Summer camp, you've been? Like the whole canoeing, archery, the Bill Murray- Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... late '70s movie smash hit Meatballs? Chad: Yeah. Not quite that fun, but yeah. Joel: Are you ready for the summer? Are you ready for the good time? So Job Today, one of the most influential job sites over in Europe, they decided that it was a good idea to have a Job Today Summer Camp for kids. I know what you're saying, "What do kids do at the Job Today Summer Camp?" Chad: Yeah, are they canoeing, are they archery? I mean- Joel: Yeah, you'd think so, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Kids, luckily they're in London and Barcelona who attended. So according to a story at Angroup, the target audience is young people with little or no work experience. Summer camp is designed to improve their job hunting skills, and boost their resume. Chad: What? Joel: According to the site, each training day will include a morning session on job search techniques,- Chad: No fucking way, how old are these kids? Joel: Let me finish, interview tips, and coaching. In the afternoon, experts will lead hands on job training, successful applicants can attend one or more sessions. I just can't. How bad is- Chad: At summer camp. Joel: ... summer camp if you're learning to write a resume and interview? Chad: Summer camp is time to get away all of the learning, the books, and all that other stuff. It's time to swim, canoe, all that stuff. This is not... This sounds like a Tiger Mom camp. Joel: Yeah. It sounds like some fantasy concentration camp for kids. What in the world is going on over there in Europe? Chad: That's fucking horrible. Joel: I got nothing man. Chad: That's fucking horrible. I've got something, the Swedes love this whole fucking microchip thing. More than 4000 people have already had these sci-fish chips added... We've talked about this before, it's about the size of a grain of rice and it's inserted into your hand. This gives you an opportunity to go and buy things much easier. So instead of using, like when we were just over in London, everybody was tapping their card, and it's kind of novel here to an... the whole pay thing, everybody did it. Now, that's not good enough, "Wait a minute I've got to pull my card out, no I don't want to do that. I'll just tap my hand on it." How much information are you giving away? Joel: Why are people volunteering to do this? Chad: They're fucking- Joel: It just blows my mind. Chad: ... idiots, dude. Geo location... I mean, can you imagine if insurance companies got their hands on some of the information that was actually embedded in your body? I mean it's just... Dude, I don't get it. What are people thinking? Joel: Yeah. Chad: And then, Elon Musk comes up with brain chips, pretty much. I mean, dude, it is freaking crazy. They call the ones that are in your hand, glorified smart watches, but Elon Musk says that these brain chips, they're like Bluetooth enabled implants. He's claiming the devices will enable telepathy and repair motor function in people with injuries. That comes from CNN Business. What the fuck? Joel: Because I really want to know what everyone's thinking. Chad: I don't want to know that, nobody. Joel: All right. I don't want to know what my kids think about me. Chad: Yeah. At all. Joel: "Dad is so stupid." Chad: Yeah, for sending me to- Joel: "Why?" Chad: ... sending me to Job Today camp. Joel: Yeah, "I don't want to go to Job Today camp. No." Chad: "All right, all right Cole, I know you don't want to go to Job Today camp, I can totally get it, but guess what, you're going to thank dad in 20 years." No, he's not, he's going to hate you. Joel: Good news is kidnappings will stop, because we'll be able to track all of our kids wherever they go. So I guess there is some silver lining to this police state that we're moving toward. Chad: You might as well put a collar on them. Joel: Speaking of which, I'm going to throw in a little curve ball. We've all being seeing these face app, check me out 50 years from now- Chad: Like the Facebook? Yeah. Joel: What am I going to look like when I'm old, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: So I love this... What can go wrong when an app basically dictates or determines what you're going to look like when you're old with face recognition type technology. Chad: Right. Joel: What can go wrong? So anyway, so privacy concerns... A story came out this week, privacy concerns are rising around the viral face transforming "face app", which has swiftly become a global pop cultural touch down. I personally haven't done it yet, I don't really want to know what I'll look- Chad: No thanks. Joel: ... when I'm old, because I'm getting old. Users are being cautioned that the app, which allows users to see their "future self" by using AI software to instantaneously rework photos, could be misused by the software company's Russian based developers. Face App was modified... has modified more than 80 million user images, and according to its terms of use it can "still store and use images even if users delete them." What could go wrong people? Chad: I've got nothing. We're putting chips in our hands, we're looking at putting chips in our heads, and- Joel: We're going to job search summer camps. Chad: ... and we don't mind giving all of our data to anybody and anyone, while we're getting cat fished on LinkedIn. So that's all I've got. Joel: Fuck it, I'm going to go strike Amazon. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Announcer: This has the been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors, because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Appcast #ClickIQ #Perengo #TMP #AIA #Indeed #StepStone #Linkedn #Jobcase #Facebook #GermanPersonnel #Microsoft #chatbots #JobToday

Do staffing firms need a native app for iPhones and Android devices? This startup certainly thinks so, but do the boys agree? Let's just say it's a house divided. Ready. Aim. Listen. And enjoy this Talroo exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Chad: Talroo is focused on predicting, optimizing, and delivering talent directly to your email or ATS. Joel: So it's totally data-driven talent attraction, which means the Talroo platform enables recruiters to reach the right talent at the right time and at the right price. Chad: Guess what the best part is? Joel: Let me take a shot here. You only pay for the candidates Talroo delivers. Chad: Holy shit, okay, so you've heard this before. So if you're out there listening in podcast land, and you are attracting the wrong candidates, and we know you are, or you feel like you're in a recruiting hamster wheel and there's just nowhere to go, right? You can go to Talroo.com/attract. Again, that's Talroo.com/attract and learn how Talroo can get you better candidates for less cash. Joel: Or just go to Chadcheese.com and click on the Talroo logo. I'm all about the simple. Chad: You are a simple man. Announcer: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids, the Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Chad: That's right. Joel: A whole other level. Chad: That's right. Joel: We're recording on Canada Day, so I'm all hopped up on Molson as we record this. Anyway, kids- Chad: Is that a real day? Joel: -it's another episode of- It is a real day, yeah. Canada Day, when they fought quote-unquote for their independence from Britain. Anyway, Firing Squad is back, gang. Today we have a special treat straight out of the Northwest of the great American country that we live in. Rick, can I call you Little Richard or would you be offended? Anyway, Rick Richard, founder and CEO of StaffUpApp. Chad: App. Joel: Rick, welcome to the show. Rick: Hey, thanks for having me, guys. Joel: You're so mellow, man, I love it. Rick: I'm a Portlander, you know? Joel: That cool Portland vibe you got going there. Rick: Exactly. Joel: My only association with Portland is watching Kindergarten Cop a couple times. Rick: Yeah, that's true, it was filmed here. Joel: Yeah, it was, it was, it was. Like 30 years ago. Rick, tell us about yourself. Chad will go through the rules and then we'll get into the company. Rick: All right, great. So I'm a computer science person by background, software engineering, electrical engineering, as well. I've been a software for the last 25 plus years or so, started a few firms. I'm also the founder and CEO of a mobile app development firm, which is how it led to StaffUpApp. I live with my family and two kids, here in the Pacific Northwest. Me in a nutshell. Joel: So no background in employment, which could be important. Rick: Well, I've been an entrepreneur for much longer than I ever was employed. So, I worked for several software firms, but that was 20 plus years ago. Joel: This is your first foray into an employment-related technology, is what I'm asking? Rick: It is, yes. Joel: All right, Chad, tell him what he's won. Chad: Excellent. Rick, what you've won is getting in front of the Firing Squad. Rick, you're going to have two minutes to pitch StaffUpApp. At the end of two minutes, you're going to hear the bell, and Joel and I will hit you with rapid fire Q&A. If your answers start rambling and you get boring, we're going to hit you with the crickets. That means tighten your game up. At the end of Q&A, we're going to grade you with one of three, first being big applause. Joel: That's what you want. Chad: That's what you want right there. That means we loved it. Golf clap. That's my favorite, but we think that you're on the right track, but you're not quite there yet and need to tighten your game up a little bit. And what you don't want to hear, the Firing Squad. That means take that app and go home. Joel: Take your shit and go home, Rick. Chad: That's right, take your app and go home. So that's it for Firing Squad. Joel, get ready to start him. Joel: Rick, any questions? Rick: No, I got it. Joel: Excellent. And you are on your two minute countdown starting (ding ding ding) Rick: So StaffUpApp is a white label, mobile app solution for staffing and recruiting industry. We make it so that you can have your own branded app in the Apple app store for iPhones and iPads, and a Google Play store for Android devices, all without the high cost of custom mobile app development. The apps are available for a candidate to download and engage with the firms. So today, candidates use and expect the online, on-demand, Uber-like experience. You know, like Netflix mobile, Uber and Lyft apps, dating apps, and of course banking apps, which I love and I use pretty extensively. Rick: Firms that can modernize their approach and have an app to allow easy access to applications submittals, referrals to friends and colleagues, and engage with the staffing firm I think are really ahead of the game. With differentiating your brand in a really big way by having your own custom app, I think staffing firms really give themselves the ability to connect with candidates in a way that they don't normally have access to. Like push notifications and texting, for example, are natural to mobile and I think part of the process. Rick: Staffing firms that have an app have huge first mover advantage over staffing firms that don't, and everyone puts their jobs on Indeed and Google for example, right? That's fantastic and it's essential, but having your own branded mobile app allows you to connect faster with candidates. And both active and passive candidates at any point, they see your jobs, can engage with you, can apply and can submit referrals for friends and colleagues. Rick: To build your own mobile app today would be about $150-200k. A very expensive, time consuming and risky endeavor. StaffUpApp offers a better solution at a fraction of that cost. For more information, go to our website staffupapp.com or email me at rick@staffupapp.com. Chad: Nice. (ding ding ding) Very nice. Joel: Nice job, Rick. You got that pitch down. Chad: Way to close it out. That was good. Joel: Someone's been practicing in the mirror with a stopwatch I think. Chad: Wow, we ridiculed others for not getting that domain in there, right? Very nice. So first question, Rick. Most of these companies don't have a great mobile experience on their site, at all, anyway. So why jump straight into an app if their mobile experience sucks already? Rick: So, first they should have a mobile experience. That's kind of an essential thing. Problem is most people have statistically have been shown like Flurry and other analytical firms that have done a survey, most app users use browsers maybe 10% of the time when they're on mobile. The rest of the time, they're in mobile apps. So they want to engage with firms using their mobile app. That experience is more engaging, it's more specific to them, and it's tailored for mobile. If they have a browser solution that's not responsive now, they're already behind the 8-ball. So they have to have that, but really this is above and beyond having your own browser based solution. Joel: So Rick, I think in the selling point to the staffing firm to have an app is probably not too difficult. Where I have a problem is, asking a job seeker to download a native app in order to see the jobs, to apply and sort of message and engage. You mentioned you have a banking app and I think we all probably do on this call, you use banking tools everyday, right? You're checking your balance, you're moving money, your depositing, whatever you're doing, right? That's a regular thing that you do. Joel: Most job searches happen every two to three years. If there are apps that people download it's probably like the Indeed app, or Glassdoor maybe, where they can see companies or get updates, so what, for a job seeker really is the defining reason why they would download your app versus others? Rick: So you've got two differentiations there. So the passive job seeker who's already employed, now why would he download the app? Then you've got the active job seeker. Let's talk about the active job seeker first. So staffing firms go out of their way to build relationships with candidates, right? You have a candidate walk through your door or email you or however you've connected with them, that's very expensive touch point. They want to engage that person and keep that person connected. Rick: So making an app available to them is essential because now, the candidate's not going to download ten staffing firm apps. They may download, like you said, Monster and Indeed and those guys for the broader search, but they really want that relationship with a firm they've chosen. They're not going to have a relationship with ten different firms, they're going to have a personal relationship with one or two staffing firms that really engage with them. And the app allows you to do that with push notifications and texts, having your jobs available to you, all those features are really available at the tips of your fingers. Chad: So back to my question with regard to the mobile experience on the website. Why not just focus? If I'm a staffing company, why don't I just focus deeply on making sure that that's a more engaging user experience as opposed to creating something that somebody has to download? What does an app give me that a really great user experience on my mobile site won't? Rick: First of all, now you can't send push notifications to a mobile based browser. They've got that ability with StaffUpApp. You can't even send text messages to the person based on their mobile usage. But the big reason is people just aren't using mobile browsers. They just don't use them. Like I said, statistically, they use maybe 10% of the time you're on your mobile browser for a firm to interact with them. The rest of the time they expect an app. Rick: So, yeah, if mobile browsers are being used, sure that would be a reasonable argument. I still would have arguments against it, but that would be a reasonable argument. But it's not being used, so you're kind of not engaging with the people you want to engage with and spending a lot of time and money on a mobile experience that isn't being used. Joel: I want to step back a second, Rick. Talk about, have you guys raised money? Are you looking to raise money? What does the organization look like and what might it look like in the next 24 months? Rick: So, we have not raised money, it's al boot strapped up. I own a mobile app development company. We've built apps for the real Olympics, Motorola, of a national brand, soft built a lot of apps over the last 10 years, so I've boot strapped it up. If we're looking for funding, I'm not sure yet. So we'll see after the next 18 months or so. The market is wide open now, very few firms have a mobile app, very few firms have a good mobile app, so we think we've got a lot of upside, so we're going to approach that as the year progresses. Joel: So you develop a lot of apps. You see a lot of startups and companies that are developing stuff. You haven't developed anything in the employment space. So what was it about this idea that really sparked your imagination and wanted you to actually build it and do this? Rick: So, in my mobile app development company, I will get staffing firms to come to me and want to build their own mobile app. A subside of what we've got in StaffUpApp. But when they hear the cost, $150-250k to build out iPhone, android, the backing system that's needed, and all the supporting services, they shy away. So after a few times happening, I said well I think I can build this and do it in a white label way, so that it's not onerous for us to customize it for every staffing firm. Rick: We can automate a lot of that, build a lot of those options in, in configurable ways, make this available as a service to staffing and recruiting firms instead of one big lump sum fee, we're a subscription based service. Chad: You just said the market is wide open, and you're right, the market is wide open. So why just focus on staffing firms? You have these huge big fortune 500, fortune 25, fortune 50 brands who would, could pay $150k for an app, or $100k, who knows. Why just focus on staffing? Why not branch out and look at that wide open market? Rick: So that's a great question. So, I think the big mistake in startups is they try to do too much too fast. Now, we have a really good product, we're learning tons in the staffing and recruiting industry. They've improved this product over the last 18 months in ways that I wouldn't even have thought of. So we're building up to that point. Will we go to the bigger fortune 500 companies and beyond? You know, very possibly, but when we go to them, we're going to be super solid. Rick: We're going to have a product that we know, an industry that has really worked for us, is really engaging a lot of users, and then we go to them with a lot of strength, instead of trying to get that first fortune 500 company would take a year, right, or more. They take forever to close. So we're in a space where we think we can close a lot of staffing and recruiting firms and get tons of great feedback and make our product fantastic. Joel: We talk a lot on this show about automation., particularly marketing, recruitment marketing automation. I could see a job seeker maybe downloading the app because the recruiting firm tells them, hey download the app and we can engage with you in that manner, but do they continue to get things like job alerts, messages from the recruiters, is there an engagement after the initial download? Or do I download it, get a job, and then I never hear from the company or the staffing firm again unless they manually go in and communicate with me? What automation tools does it have? Rick: All right, so now this is a second part of industry we're talking about. Passive candidates. Someone who's already working, right? They've already used the app, they've got a position, and now they're working somewhere. Why would they want the app? So, the reason is, the staffing firm keeps them engaged. We have a great career resources area where you get help with all sorts of aspects of a running employment, whatever they want, PDFs, videos, whatever they want, they can put in that area. Rick: So the candidate, even passively, can always stay engaged with you. More importantly, a passive candidate has all these relationships with other individuals in their segment. So when I was a working engineer, I knew what everyone was doing. I knew everyone who was happy with what they were doing, or looking for a job, or wanting to change their development stack, and move on. So I knew all those guys. Rick: If my staffing firm, who I have a relationship with, sends a notification out that says, we've got a new referral program. It's now $1,000 if place as a java developer. Now, I've got the app, I know that right away, with just a couple of clicks, I can refer that friend without having to lookup staffing firms, email address or the name of my recruiter, all that is already built in to the app. Everyone gets a report of it. Rick: The staffing firm gets a notification that there's a new referral, the person who's referred now has a link to the app or the specific job that I thought they were good for. So it makes a really tight coupling even if the candidate is passive and not actively looking for a position. Chad: So, Rick, quick question with regard to texting and then going beyond texting to messaging. I see that you have an integrated partnership with a texting organization. What about beyond that messaging with WhatsApp and maybe some of these other organizations like TalkPush, Canvas, TextRecruit, which cover more than just text. Are you integrating with them? How does that all work? Rick: So texting is different, so we have lots of integrations with others. Like one of our referral partners, Staffing Referrals, they have a great system. It flushes out referrals far better than we would. We want to have a basic referral program. If there's third party connections that we can make, we're more than willing to do that. We've got several that we've already done. Rick: Texting is different. Texting is phone number based. So, if you've got the phone number from your texting firm, and our texting partner is not just texting, they've got full rich set of features like RecruitText and others. Canvas, they've got a full rich set of features. So we integrate by the phone number. So the phone number you assigned to your recruiter or the firm, we integrate into our app to when the candidate wants to text you, they've got it already in the app. Rick: We go through their normal texting system, or their texting partner for back and forth texting. So, we integrate it at their phone number level so that if it ever changes it's always still integrated into our system. Going beyond texting, I think that's really interesting. So, I don't see it as much now for WhatsApp and others, but I think that's going to really be the next step for texting candidates, so even RichTexts, that sort of thing, is really becoming popular, but I'm not seeing it yet, but we're certainly watching it, and when that integration is available to us we certainly are going to integrate with others. Chad: Yeah, when you take a look at some of these very large staffing companies like Ronstadt, that is an international staffing organization and across the pond, WhatsApp is used more than really I think any other messaging platform that's out there. Now it is predicated on the phone number which is good, which is another reason why I asked about WhatsApp because that is basic foundation on the phone number. Rick: Right, right. Joel: Interested in marketing. As you all know, selling as a vendor, marketing is challenging, but you're also asking the staffing firm to market the app as well. So talk about how you guys are marketing, the staffing companies, and then what sort of recommendation or hand holding do you do with the staffing firm to then market their app to their candidates and prospects? Rick: So, you're right. Closing a staffing firm can be time consuming, but giving them tips on how to market the app is easy, because they already do all the things that we piggy-back on. They post to Instagram, they post to LinkedIn, they post their jobs. Everywhere they post already, we say add a small tag to the bottom of your post that says 'download our mobile app' or 'we now have mobile app' and it has the nice iPhone and android images that let's them click and download right their from their mobile. Rick: So marketing is pretty straight forward, because again they're already reaching out so many places. And we have marketing tips that we provide them. We're constantly growing and evolving, learning new things, and passing them on to all of our staffing firms. Chad: Right, how many clients do you currently have utilizing your apps and how are they using it to become more of the Uber-ization, as you would call it, of staffing? Rick: So we're about 18 months in. Our beta launch, it was pretty lengthy, so we have a couple dozen clients already, the exact number fluctuates but we have a couple dozen and it's growing. It's growing pretty rapidly. Whenever we leave a conference we always close several clients so we're getting big on conferences now. They way they're using it is essentially the same for all, but it does vary a little bit. More the industrial clients, they push a lot of texts and push notifications to their pool often, and they get a lot of response. A lot of referrals, a lot of applications. Rick: For the more high tech firms, that place high tech IT and other areas, they for one want the jobs to be available. And one thing you guys mentioned earlier on about getting lots of notifications, our app doesn't really give any notifications other than what the candidate asked for. So a candidate for example would download a staffing firms app, they put in their alerts. They say what are they interested in, and only when those things are available do they get a notification that that match is made in the app, and the app shows them the matches they have. Rick: The job listings update automatically so there's no notification that there's a new job, it's just more like when there's a match is available for the candidate but they all use the PDF format of resources, so they always get information, there career resources is updated instantly. If the firm updates in our backend, it's instantly available to the app, there's no refresh needed or anything like that. So they all use it to communicate everything from resume tips to other employment types of PDFs they put out or their blog, whatever they think is important, those are always available. Joel: I'm interested in competition for a little bit. Is there any competition aside from just developers that would have to develop this from scratch, and also what do you feel is the biggest threat to your business? Rick: So there's no real direct competitors, there's another firm in Canada that provides a branded app. They're more time based oriented I believe. They do more time cards. There are a few staffing firms that have built their own, and they're pretty sparse. There the job list. I don't really see a point, right? They do that in they're more of a browser based thing. They don't do even application submittals in many that I've seen. So it's not really an engagement too for them, it's more they thought they needed an app and then they had it built. Rick: So I don't see a lot of competition there. The threat I see, and it's not realized yet, and we plan on being there as well, is something we touched on earlier. First, this evolution of texting happening, right? SOmething's going to happen with texting and I think it's going to be a merger of kind of texting and chat bots kind of thing where the process for engaging a candidate is going to evolve over the next few years. We always talk chat bots in terms of AI. Chat bots are not AI yet. Chat bots are a logic tree today, so they're not really super polished. Rick: You've seen the complicated ones that look very real, but it's not really AI yet. I think AI, with all the searches becoming available through Microsoft, Google, Amazon, true AI, I think the candidate experience is going to change so much over the next few years that you can't really predict where it's going to be. You can only stay alert and say, I'm going to utilize this as it becomes available and popular. So that's kind of how I look at the future horizon. I keep an eye on the things I think are really exciting and coming down the line and seeing how we can integrate it in and provide more value to our clients. Chad: Talking about value. You know, as boot strapping this, you cannot develop everything. You can't. I mean, this is an arms race that's happening right now in this industry, so talk to me about some of the partners that you have integrated with and why you chose to actually integrate with those partners. Rick: Yeah, so that's a good point. You know, it's the same thing about the fortune 500 and 5000 companies. I can't be everywhere yet. I want to stay really focused on what I do, and I don't want to reach out and be the best texting platform in the world. Now we have really good basic texting built into our service, no extra cost, but we also partner with texting companies like TextUs, for example, who has a great system, fully flushed out robust system, and after adding features and functions all the time. Rick: So we let them do full blown texting if the firm is interested in that. Our referrals are becoming so big now, I can't believe some firms don't have a referral bonus program, right? Now as a working engineer, engineers make $100-150k, I guarantee you any one of those engineers, if you put a $500 bonus in front of them, bend over backwards to get that bonus. Staffing firms aren't really utilizing that so much, so we partner with a great staffing firm, a staffing referrals company called staffing Referrals, they integrate into our system as well. Rick: We have a basic referral system that gives everyone great notifications, but if you want a very full robust staffing referrals integration, you go to a company like that and really get the full blown, very niche specific features and functions tailored towards referrals. So that's how we approach integration. They do what we do in segments better, we'd love to partner with them and use them as an integrated partner. Joel: Question about targeting, Rick. Both on, I guess, the job seeker side and the agency side, is there some cohesion there? In other words, I could not see a high demand engineer downloading an app from a staffing firm, whereas I could see other professionals doing that. Do you try to sync up the staffing firms that you go after, that have job seekers that are more aligned to downloading an app? Or is there any strategy at all at this point around that? Do you understand what I'm asking? Rick: Yeah, so it's not a specific strategy, but I disagree with you. As a high end senior engineer, architect level engineer, I would download an app like this because I want to stay in touch with what the firm is doing, especially the referral program. There's great tips that staffing firms have. Most engineers like me, are pretty not extroverted or introverts, right? Rick: So getting tips on how to function more better at work, relationship type things and other great tips that firms generally put out to their passive candidates, would always be of interest to me. So I think the same thing happens with an app. The app, also, is like this business card. You want to give it to candidates that you have interacted with or touched at any point. Then whenever they want to get in contact with you or know what you 're doing, it's just an app away. Rick: There's no searching for you on the website anymore, what was the name of that recruiter, what was that website I want to refer a person to. It's this calling card that's now always on your desktop of your app that very few people would download more than one relationship based staffing firm app, so let that app be your app. It's a way for staying really connected with individuals. Joel: Do you believe that engineers aren't on LinkedIn, because they don't like being contacted by so many staffing firms? Rick: I would never be on LinkedIn if I was an engineer. That's just me personally, because I would get lots and lots of recruiters coming to me and trying to move me from where I was currently placed. Joel: Right, so I guess my question is, how is this different? Rick: So, staffing firms aren't always trying to recruit someone who's currently working. They just want to be in touch with them when they're looking. I think it's very passive in a way firms have been staying connected with a candidate. Just because you placed me, it's not like the 80s where they will place you and immediately try to place you somewhere else. I think most firms will just wait, and when you're ready to move, or more importantly you know someone else is ready to move, you're available to them via the app where they can make an easy and quick referral for a colleague who happens to be moving or not interested in staying where they are for whatever reasons. If you have a relationship with that candidate and they have your app, it's easy for them to refer that person to your firm. Chad: Rick, tell me about pricing. What's pricing look like around this? Rick: So, we're a no contract base, we're very easy sale, very easy decision for a firm. No set up fee, and we're roughly $549 a month. So if there's a little bit, the firm has special ATS connection needs, but generally we go out the gate at $549 a month. Joel: All right, let's go to the firing squad then, I want to hear the bell one more time. (ding ding ding) All right. All right Rick, I'm going to go first here, man where to start. I think that you have a lot of things going against you, and I think Chad and I are probably disagree on this and that's why it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast, so I think, I look at this specifically from the two angles of having a native application, both that you're marketing and maintaining as well as downloading and engaging with. Joel: And from my perspective, I think it's, I can't see the synergies of a staffing firm with a mobile app, having to market it, promote it, engage with folks on it. I understand that job alerts are pretty easy. I think that over time job seekers from the job seekers side get annoyed with that. We've had email alerts forever, and I think similarly app alerts are going to be viewed similarly by job seekers. You may be seeing a totally different thing and if you are, then I'm totally wrong and you'll be a major success. Joel: For me it's really hard to get away from the old way of doing things, whether it's phone calls, emails, texting which we touched upon a little bit are huge. You mentioned advancements in messaging which will happen, which I think is just a much more organic relationship and interaction with a job seeker, so I think there's so many challenges with the business in terms of both of those things coming together. I also look at the fact you've never done employment before, you have a company as it is, so it's going to be pretty easy for you to say let's just go back to doing what we know and developing apps, so for me, I hope you prove me wrong, but for me, you got the guns. Chad? Chad: All right. So Rick, there's no question. Asking candidates to download an app is an obstacle. There's no question, right? But this is where Joel is incredibly wrong. First and foremost I love the focus. It's super solid, and it does take forever for a fortune 500 company to close. Not to mention staffing is a business, right? Talent acquisition, that's their job, right? They're not looking at margins, they're not looking at EBIDA, they're not looking at all of those things, right? Chad: Staffing does. So you, to be able to pick staffing to be business focused, I think is incredibly smart, and the only way to go. Don't worry about those big brands, because those big brands are a pain in the fucking ass. So, understanding partnerships is also a big point, because you know you can't develop everything. That's awesome as well because again, you have the focus that's necessary to be able to make this boot strapped organization right now move forward. Chad: And last but not least, and this is where Joel just doesn't get it, is that Indeed acquired Syft. Syft is a marketplace app, the evolution from traditional staffing to marketplace platforms has to happen. This is how it's going to happen. The big key for you is, can you jump on that train? If staffing companies understand that Indeed's going to drink their milkshake, then they could easily take a look at what you have to offer and say, how are we going to compete. This is how they're going to compete, which is why I'm giving you a big applause. Joel: Rick, you've gotten your first ever in history applause and guns show, congratulations. How do you feel? That's the first time it's ever happened. Rick: Well, we know who the genius of the two of you are. Chad. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Hey Rick, bottom line, Chad and I always root for startups. I hope that you can come on, you know 3, 4 or 5 years from now. Chad, I think we out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the firing squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.chadcheese.com. #Talroo #FiringSquad #Staffing #Apps #Marketplace #Indeed #Syft

When Stepstone acquired Appcast, the boys wondered why Indeed failed to snatch-up programmatic's most well-known and successful companies. Maybe Indeed wasn't even interested. Turns out, they were, as proven by the recent announcement that they acquired second-rate competitor, ClickIQ. In this episode, the guys bring in some special guests - Rob Prince from Talent Nexus and Julie Sowash from Crazy and The King - to get to the bottom of things, as well as cover a broad range of topics, including Facebook's issues, Recfest roundup, Hirevue's impending sale. Check it, and show our sponsors some love: Sovren, Canvas, and JobAdX are bloody brilliant, mate! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is changing minds and changing lives through disability inclusion. Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates a human. Sovren. Software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash, and Joel Cheesman, are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Julie Sowash: All right, can we talk about something now? Chad: This is a wrap up. Joel: This is a wrap up, but we have some news. Chad: We do have news. Joel: Specifically, the ClickIQ acquisition by Indeed, who's getting sloppy seconds by not getting on the Appcast train. We have HireVue rumors of a sale. I guess it's official. They're selling HireVue. It's on the chopping block, and then some other fringe news. But primarily the RecFest roundup and our thoughts on that. If you love special guests from- Chad: This is it. Joel: ... exotic locations, this is the show for you. We're here in London, England. Chad: In a pub. What pub are we in? Rob Prince: We're in the Grove in Surbiton, just down the road from the office. Joel: We've pulled Rob in from pouring beers. We thought we'd throw him on the show. No, actually, Rob Prince, with Talent Nexus. Rob, what's your position there with the company? Rob Prince: Client Services Director. Joel: Client Services Director. We'll get to you in a second. We're also for the second time bringing in the better half of the Sowash bond. Chad: This is nepotism personified right now. Julie Sowash: Yeah. It is. I'll let you be on the podcast. Joel: Julie Sowash. Julie Sowash: Hello, hello. What's your current title besides care and handler and feeding of the Chad. Joel: Just super badass bitch. Julie Sowash: Super badass bitch. Joel: Senior consultant and cohost of the Crazy and the King podcast. Julie Sowash: Diversity oracle. Joel: Guru. Badass bitch. Chad: I think you said that earlier. Joel: All right. All right. Rob, let's get to you quick. Talent Nexus. Who are they, why should our audience care? Chad: And why did you make us look so Goddamn good? Rob Prince: Because it's so easy. Because it's so easy. [crosstalk 00:02:51]. Chad: The British. Julie Sowash: Don't lie. Rob Prince: Overly polite. Rob Prince: Talent Nexus, we're a marketing agency. We work exclusively within recruitment. Today we've got two sides of the business. We've got the programmatic side, which is all about just helping job boards and employers get their candidates for cheaper, and then we've got the employer branding and content side, which is the side that I deal with more than the other side. And it's the side that led us on to doing the video with you guys. Video's a big part of what we do at the moment. Joel: So you're going to have something really smart to say in regards to the ClickIQ Indeed acquisition. Correct? Chad: Wait. Before we get there, I have a rant. Joel: Before shoutouts you got a rant? Chad: Yes. Yeah. Joel: Go for it. Chad: I was talking to Richard yesterday from ClickIQ [crosstalk 00:03:36]- Joel: Dick. Julie Sowash: Oh. He called you out on LinkedIn. Chad: ... CEO of fucking ClickIQ. And we had a legitimate pointed conversation. I said, "Richard, right now we said it on the podcast and you heard it. Indeed is fucking stupid for not buying Appcast, and you guys, I mean pretty much ..." Joel: We're on record. Chad: Yeah. We're on record. And he just looked at me, he turned red and he breathed really deep and he's like, "Yeah, yeah." I was like, "Well, just so you know, you are validated because now you are the big player. Right?" And then guess what happens today? Joel: As he's waiting for the check to clear in his bank account. He's breathing heavily. Chad: He's like, "If Chad and Cheese say this shit onstage, I am fucked." Joel: Actually, the validation is in our show. Chad: That's good... yeaaaa. Joel: Because we criticized it and it happened, because somebody was smart enough to make it happen. Rob Prince: I'm 90% sure that that redness was actually sunburn. He was definitely a cagey about it. He's apologize to you on LinkedIn today. [crosstalk 00:04:43] straight up sunburn. Chad: Yeah, I've got to say, no, congratulations dude. That is fucking awesome. I mean in the short amount of time Appcast, now ClickIQ ... Rob Prince: Big week. Chad: Big week, so ... we'll get to shoutouts. We're going to do that after, whatever. This is big fucking news. You're in programmatic, Rob, you're in programmatic, you know this shit. What does this mean for the industry overall? Rob Prince: I think it is a potentially long overdue waking up. I think the industry's is speeding up, it's waking up. You talked about the Appcast acquisition earlier this week. It's funny that they've both happened at the same time. I'm sure it wasn't planned like that, but these things do tend to happen in twos, don't they? Chad: Indeed lost on the Appcast thing and they're like, "Fuck, we need to pull the trigger on this one. That had to be what happened. There was a bidding war- Joel: Was ClickIQ the consolation prize? Chad: I think they were going for both of them, myself. I think they're going for a clean sweep. What do you think? Rob Prince: Honestly, I have absolutely no idea. Joel: What do you think, though, Rob? This is an opinion show. Chad: Asked you for what you think, Rob. Joel: We don't take kindly to "I don't know." Rob Prince: My guess would be that it was planned purely because I can't see Indeed losing that bidding war and nobody knowing about it. Julie Sowash: Especially for the price that Appcast went at. Chad: Yeah, especially for the price. Joel: What was Appcast's market share here in the European market? Rob Prince: I couldn't tell you the numbers, but they're certainly the leading providers. Joel: So same as the US, Appcast was the leader. Rob Prince: I mean within the UK you're looking at Recruitics and Appcast would be the two versions that people know. Joel: Do we know the dollar figure? Rob Prince: No, I don't think Click's been released. The whole release, I thought, it was interestingly worded release, especially if you compare it to happened earlier in the week. I think the phrase is something they've, they've agreed signed to agree that they will acquire rather than the version earlier in the week, which was, "Hoorah, we got bought." ClickIQ's is a bit different to that. And I'd be interested to know whether that's slightly clumsy wording or whether that means that he's talking about something different. Joel: Knowing Indeed's PR as I do, it was probably strategic, all of it in terms of wording and PR. So my question is if the big dog, Appcast, the relationships with the agencies, okay, that's an advantage and a head start. But now you have click IQ with the full resources of an Indeed. A year from now, two years from now, is Appcast still the one the agencies rely on and use, or does ClickIQ make headway into that world and overtake Appcast in, say, three to five years? Chad: I think you have to take a look at StepStone's priorities. If they're looking to make sure that- Joel: World domination. Chad: Yeah, I mean if they look for literally making sure that they shore up what they have in the US, which is, I mean really dominating infrastructure for programmatic in the US, and then being able to also shore up now what they have in Europe, which is where they're at, if that's their focus, then I think they're still doing well. But the amount of money that Indeed spends or could spend on this could definitely overtake anything. Chad: The big question is do they have the focus of yesteryear? Back in the Paul Forster days, Paul Forster focused a fucking laser. Right? And that's why they overtook everybody- Joel: Focused beasts. Chad: Yeah. And now they have no focus whatsoever. I mean, they're all over the place. So the big question is can they become the Indeed of yesteryear and prioritize and focus in one area to evolve and become something bigger? Or are they just going to fuck this up? Joel: Rob, you know StepStone better than we do. What's your take on their reach into North America, there's rumors that they're looking into to eBay's properties in Canada. Do you have any particular insight into StepStone, a European company as they grow into North America? Rob Prince: StepStone have always been a growing ambitious professional, is probably the word I would use. Chad: They're German, so they're going to be uptight and professional. [crosstalk 00:09:16]. They're more uptight than the British, aren't they? Rob Prince: German? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Ze Germans. Rob Prince: You could ask anybody in the pub that question and you would get the same answer, which is of course. I can't see them being anything other than efficient and smart here. You called it earlier this week. The acquisition is a good one for them. It's a real sign of intent. It's the first proper acquisition of a programmatic business, which is a huge leap in the right direction for the industry. I think that's where that's going. Joel: My question as well as when you have job sites StepStone and Indeed buy up these programmatic solutions, don't you have to say that inevitably there's going to be a little bit of skewing in favor of their properties versus the network properties, and ultimately you're going to send more traffic to either StepStone or Indeed's properties than you are the competition? Rob Prince: It is vital for a platform like that that it is a agnostic. That's why the platform would be valuable and work. You're looking at me with cynical eyes, which I [crosstalk 00:10:33]. Joel: ... transparency around where the money's being spent. And right now there really is no transparency around where it's being spent. Rob Prince: And it's why there's the understandable nervousness and then it's ... you're talking to people at RecFest yesterday and everyone gets what the nervousness is. And it's why, Richard, in his LinkedIn post earlier, even called it out in, one of three paragraphs, one of them was about the platform remains agnostic, and it's all about spending money in the most efficient way. It's not about directly funneling money into whoever owns us. It has to be like that. Can you imagine a platform working in a way that wasn't that? That has to be the way that a platform like that works. Joel: Yeah. So they may be saying that out of one side of their mouth, but are they telling a different story internally on the other side of their mouth? Rob Prince: You'll have to get them on. Joel: Assuming they'll tell the truth. Well, Richard's British, right? You always tell the truth. Chad: Yeah. Okay, so moving on. Let's go ahead and get the shoutouts. Joel: It's commercial time. JobAdX: Nah. Not for me. All these jobs look the same. Ugh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just half-heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. JobAdX: Face it. We live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? JobAdX: Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop-off. JobAdX: You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compelled top talent to join your team? Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@J-O-B-A-D-X.com. Attract, engage, employ with Job AdX. Chad: It's show time. Joel: Well, I'm curious if you have an opinion on the transparency and where the money's going. Chad: I don't think Indeed has anything to actually win and / or prove through transparency. They're the big dog when it comes to traffic. They're going to do what they want to do, how they want to do it, when they want to do it, and they don't give a fuck what anybody else thinks. So, I wish and hope that we find out how to make actually a network that that is more targeted and it makes sense, but I don't have the confidence, at least on the Indeed side of the house that that's going to happen. Chad: Now, I think on the StepStone side, we have an entirely different conversation where they do, they need to be transparent. I think there's a yin and yang to this. They can be incredibly transparent, win the public support, love all that other happy or shit. But the question is when does Indeed pull out of Appcast, and they're like, "No, you're not pushing shit our way through Appcast. We're only going through ClipCast? When's that happen, and how does that actually damage that footprint and that infrastructure that's built in the US and the UK? Rob Prince: Well, I think one of the important parts of this conversation is that it'd be very easy in this situation to conflate business decisions, business strategy with transparency. For platforms those to work, I mean, and what we did, and we do loads of programmatic stuff in line one of that agenda is to be completely transparent and open with client budget, so everyone knows exactly where everything's going because that's the only way that we could operate. Rob Prince: That is different to the second part of that, which is what do Indeed do now knowing that Appcast is in one camp and they have ClickIQ in another. But they're different things. Being transparent with customers is just a vital component of what they do. If they transparently step out of that relationship with the other team, then fine, but they shouldn't be conflated, because that would be letting them off the hook, I think, just allowing them to not be transparent because it's strategically sensible for them to do so. That's bullshit. Joel: I think it's incredibly naïve to think that more money won't be flowing into Indeed and Glassdoor. And that's all I've got to say about that. Chad: So, thanks Jamie, Leonard and Bobby and especially Lois, because I think she does all the work. No, wait. Francesca, I think, does all the work, right? Chad: So RecFest was one of ... we've never been to- Joel: If we had a bomb sound effect, this would be where we would play it. Chad: And I will put it in there some, maybe, I don't know, but we've been to how many, just about every conference that's out there in this industry, this was not a conference. Joel: By the end of the year we will have launched up pretty much every ... Chad: This is not a conference. This is a fucking festival. I mean it was a festival, circus slash ... I mean, it was amazing because from my standpoint, I saw recruiters, recruiting teams, talent acquisition let down their guard, become more transparent, more authentic, and actually not just share, but engage in the community more than I have at any other conference. Joel: Yeah. Particularly with the English who are historically a very reserved people, they had no issue with letting go some sort of truth serum must've been in the air. Chad: Yeah. It was called a bar opening at noon. Joel: It might've been the pub that was onsite at every single stage. They got them talking. But yes, it was fantastic. They held nothing close to the vest. People were very open. And I think the speakers as well, it carried over to being very open and honest, feeding off the crowd and being real in terms of opinion and context. Chad: That list of speakers I've seen, not just because we are on it, I mean come on, but the best list of speakers- Joel: It might have had something to do with it. Chad: ... it was ridiculous. It was really, it was awesome. Joel: Yeah. And Jamie's a genius by having us be the closing speakers, by the way. Chad: Because he knew we would blow shit up. Joel: The smartest man in European recruiting. Chad: I think your favorite, Rob, your favorite presentation was Torin Ellis. Rob Prince: Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah. It's been a long time since I've seen somebody control a room like that. And I think often the problem with talks about diversity as they're boring, is often what happens. It sounds like people just telling- Joel: Did you say boring? Rob Prince: Boring. Joel: Okay. Julie Sowash: Yeah. Joel knows that. Rob Prince: Right? It's getting told that you have loads more work to do and that everything's in a pretty bad state and it's your fault, which is all true ... Joel: You can't see Rob, but he's a white male in his late 20s. Would that be correct? I just want to make some context around this before we get to the female on the other side of the table. Julie Sowash: No, but it's good that Rob recognizes that it's all his fault. So yes, go ahead, Rob. Rob Prince: Importantly, it's not that the stuff isn't important. The delivery of the stuff tends to be dry in an HR context. And you're looking at a big top 10 full of what, three, 400 people, all of whom were leaning forward on the edge of their seat, just soaking up every single word. Joel: And it wasn't just fear that Torin would be calling them out during his speech, which I love. Julie Sowash: That was awesome. Chad: On the other side, I mean, Julie obviously not only knows Torin well because she's the- Joel: To say she has a unique perspective on this would be an understatement. Chad: She's on a podcast, Crazy and the King with Torin Ellis. But I actually turned and looked over to her many times and it was almost she was at church. Julie Sowash: You're never not in church with Torin. That's the only way it goes. Chad: So, talk about that. Talk about what that means to your community overall. Joel: Was this same old, same old to you or was this Torin in his element? Julie Sowash: This was definitely Torin in his element. I've seen him perfecting this presentation over the last few months, and it just gets stronger every time. And I think that in particular, this was very meaningful because Mama Ellis was there. So she was there and she got to see him present. Joel: That's his mother, by the way. Julie Sowash: Well, yeah. Mama Ellis. That's how it works. Joel: I thought you said Obama Ellis. Julie Sowash: Jesus Christ. Really? Mama Ellis. Thank God for editing. Joel: Carry on. Mind the gap. Julie Sowash: And I was interested to see honestly how his messaging would transfer over to a European audience, and if there would be that same engagement. And it was pretty powerful in the room. Everyone really, like Rob said, was on the edge of their seat- Joel: He had a few standing ovations. A few people stood up. Julie Sowash: No, I mean, it was pretty bad ass. And I think the difference between what Torin does and what a lot of us have done from a D&I perspective is a validation thing. Torin is a king. He knows his place and he knows he doesn't need to be quiet. And we spend a lot of time buying our seat at the table. "Here's the day to get my seat at the table." "Here's this to show that I have value." Torin already knows that he has value and he already knows that D&I has value and he's not apologetic about it. He's bold about it. And I think that's where we really need to go as a D&I conversation because we need to get people like you guys to be on board with what we're doing. Chad: White dudes. Julie Sowash: Yes. White dudes. Joel: And for our audience, D&I is ... Julie Sowash: Diversity and inclusion. Joel: Thank you. Julie Sowash: And that's the big thing, is that he's just not scared to just call it as it is. And that's the difference. And that's why he draws people in. It's not about the numbers or anything else. And he has backup. There's not fluff there, but that he really knows that he needs to pull us all into a movement and not a data conversation. Joel: Does Torin think that he's making a real difference, or does he feel he's fighting just such an uphill battle that it's going so slowly that it's disheartening? Julie Sowash: I had this conversation today myself, and there are 10 a lifetime's worth of work to do. And even even 55 years after the Civil Rights Act, we have so much progress to make, but I think it feels like a little bit less of an uphill battle right now, because we're starting to see cracks, or we're starting to move forward. And so a few podcasts ago, we talked about just diversity fatigue. Sometimes, as a person who fights this battle every day, it's exhausting and you're pissed and you just want to give up because people keep fucking it up. Chad: There's a lot of that. Julie Sowash: Yeah. And when that happens, I call Torin and I say, "Dude, I'm fucking exhausted today. How do I make this better?" And he was like, "You just got to keep fighting." And so I really do feel like he knows he's making a difference, and when he can inspire the rest of us to keep going, that's where his real impact is. He alone, I alone can't change it. But when we have partnerships that start to have that conversation, we start to move the needle. Joel: So you do feel like headway is being made, albeit maybe slower than you'd like? Julie Sowash: Sometimes it's- Joel: Just from an outsider's perspective, the examples that he gives, the Papa John's founder, the UPS driver, these are within the last few years, if not months. These are new stories. This isn't 1967 history lessons. Chad: Nooses in a fucking GM. Joel: Totally. And we've talked about that on the show. If I'm a champion of diversity, every story I see like that, I'm deflated. How do you keep going? Chad: What is the message to everybody out there who's really not directly impacted with this? What do you tell them? Especially from a disability standpoint, I don't have a disability? Why does this help me? Julie Sowash: So, your question first, right? Joel: My question first. Julie Sowash: Three steps forward, two steps back. Today is a scary time for us. As a person with a disability, as a woman, as a mother with women that are coming up in the world, as a mother with a young gay son, it is a scary time. And that makes the battle that much more worth fighting, because we can see, I think a lot of us got so ... Joel: Complacent? Julie Sowash: Complacent, appeased when Obama got elected. We were like, "Hey, look, we did it." Chad: "We made it." Julie Sowash: "We've made it. Things are going to be better. We got gay marriage, things are moving in the right direction." And through this and Brexit and all the things that are happening in Italy and all over the EU, we can see how fragile that balances in the world of equality. And so we have to ramp up the fight. Julie Sowash: Yeah, it's hard, but it's all fucking engines are go right now, because if not, we're going to lose. And if we don't get on board, it's fucking over for a long time. You know this, I'm looking at exit strategies for my kids and my husband and all of these things that we need to maybe do. That's hard. But then ... Joel: Meaning exit the country. Julie Sowash: Fuck, yeah. Joel: Okay. Julie Sowash: Yeah. Exit strategy. Joel: That's a whole different Brexit. Isn't it, Rob? Julie Sowash: How do I get these kids out of here if I have to get them outta here? Joel: That's a Checksit. Oh wait. Julie Sowash: A Chexit? Joel: That's a Chad exit. I don't know. Julie Sowash: No. It's a Cho- no way. I'm not going to say that. Joel: I don't want to say Sexist, like a Sowash exit, because that's [crosstalk 00:25:03]. Chad: Do you like that? Julie Sowash: No. No, no. Joel: Anyway. Keep going. His question next. Julie Sowash: Yes. So your question, what do you say ... Joel: It's commercial time. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent, text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvasbot is at your side, adding automation to your workflow. Canvas: Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Canvas: Request a demo gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: It's show time. Julie Sowash: Two things, and you've been, you Chad, have been really good about this, is that- Chad: Not you, Joel. Julie Sowash: You did good yesterday, Joel. Joel: Three steps forward, two steps back, right? Julie Sowash: You did good three times yesterday. Three times. Yes. I recounted them to Chad last night. I did. Joel: He'll slide back. Don't worry about it. Julie Sowash: We're really on the fucking right track, finally. The biggest lesson that I've learned in the last 12 months is when to shut the fuck up. When should I as a white person stop talking and start listening more? And a lot of times I think that white people want to talk because we feel like talking is validating the point. I'm saying I stand by you with all of this information that I'm giving and all of this stuff that I'm doing, and I'm so busy validating who I am, I stopped listening to you. And so as white people, we need to listen better, we need to listen more, and we need to listen with an open mind. And sometimes that's going to be super fucking painful, because we have to accept our place in the world and our privilege, and we have to accept who we are and know that we're not responsible for the current situation, but we can't continue to be complicit in it. And that's the biggest thing, is you can't continue to take your place in the world without saying this isn't okay. Julie Sowash: And until white men stand up, and I mean, it is really, it's mostly white men and a lot of white women who have thought they're doing the right thing and really have been total bullshit about it. I mean, it's a facade, until we started to get super, super, super fucking angry and realize what we're going to lose, that's the thing. Joel: You can do that. Super angry? Julie Sowash: Oh, I'm super fucking angry. Super fucking angry. Joel: Rob, I'm curious as a Brit, do you listen to this and think, "Oh, that's some American bullshit?" Are you picking up what she's dropping? Rob Prince: Something I half realized yesterday, and it's just been crystallized listening to you talk now, is that I think, often the conversation around diversity gets watered down as a product of people being so desperate for people to do something that they don't want to put them off by asking for too much. So, it gets watered down to the point of absolute beige and it's just shit. It's just, "Oh, please do something, please update your cover photo so it looks a bit more inclusive." There are a couple of good shouts out yesterday at RecFest, don't use stock photos, you dicks, which was great. Julie Sowash: That was awesome. Rob Prince: That was nice. That was nice to see. But what I've realized is what Torin did so well and what you do so well is being unafraid to actually ask for what is required. Not watering it down to the point where it becomes meaningless, just because that'll mean you take a half a step forward. It's like no, we need fucking three steps and then another three. So I'm going to ask you for the three. And Torin did that really well. He insisted, if you're going to come up and speak to me later today, and if I see you around and you see, I saw you on stage, whatever, I'm going to ask, "What are you going to do? Are you going to stand up and actually do this stuff?" Rob Prince: And that is such an important part of this. Watering it down isn't going to get you anywhere. Joel: I did love, on the stock photographs, Torin said, "If you do use stock photographs of someone in a wheelchair or someone of color, the message should be: We need more of you. And I love that. That was super awesome. Chad: We don't have these. We need these, right? Joel: Yes, exactly. We want to see you at our company. Chad: How hard is that? Julie Sowash: Jesus, you know how fucking hard that is, are you kidding me? Joel: She's climbing that mountain, dude. Chad: Somebody with a master's degree in a wheelchair can't get a fucking job, entry level job, right? Joel: In today's economy, by the way. Julie Sowash: Well, and can you imagine anyone in talent acquisition or in marketing or an HR saying, "Yeah, put it on our website that it's okay that we need you people, we need you guys to come." Can you fucking imagine anyone getting approval to say that? There's no ability to be transparent in the brand. It's all this aspirational bullshit that James Ellis talks about. Chad: It's risk averse bullshit. Julie Sowash: It is risk averse bullshit. And it's right, because we should be saying "This is what we need, this is what we're lacking." There are some companies that really are a little bit better about that, sorry, a lot better about that, but for the most part there is literally just no clearance on the risk to the brand to say this is what we need. It's so scared and it's so fearful all the time. Rob Prince: And there's a huge dishonesty to it. If you're not prepared to say, "We need more of x, y and z, because by saying that you're acknowledging that you don't have enough of it in the first place. Joel: That's z for our American audience. Rob Prince: Thanks, Joel. I'll go with a, b and c. So if you're prepared to say we don't have enough of a, b and c, you've got to be quite honest as an employer brand to do that. And I'm sure part of what's happening at the moment is people would much rather just shy away from the issue and just hope that people assume they're a really diverse employer rather than be able to put their head above the parapet and say, "Right, actually what we need is more diversity. We're not diverse enough." Rob Prince: So when we're saying, whatever you do, don't start uploading pictures of people in wheelchairs if there aren't any just approved that you're cool with it. Julie Sowash: That we like people in a wheelchair. Rob Prince: It's like, oh no, we're cool with that. Of course you are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. By all means apply. Julie Sowash: So Facebook actually came out with some stats last week, and they released this on purpose and with pride their diversity numbers. They were 3% black and two.5% Hispanic or Latin X. And I'm just making those numbers up. They're like, "Yay, look at us. We're super diverse." No, you're fucking not. Come out and say, "Hey, this is the benchmark and we're not winning at the benchmark, not even certain utilization." Chad: Say, "We need to do better." Julie Sowash: Yeah. Chad: That's it. Say it. I mean, literally. Own it. Julie Sowash: Yeah. But don't try to sell us a line of bullshit. Chad: Own it. Rob Prince: On stats, there was an interesting bit in a presentation yesterday when, Peter at Schneider Electric who was talking about equality in hiring, and their target is 50:50 male:female hiring. And he says and he puts up the graph and it's right down the middle, 50:50, so, "Yeah, we did it." No. Let me show you the version of that where I actually re-include that typically an employer wouldn't show you. I'll put back in all the hard to fill roles. I'll put back in all the roles that make this number look really bad. So, yeah. And it's 37%, which is still good. I might be a couple of percent out, but it's around 37%. And that's okay, because I'm owning it, and we're trying to do better rather than just saying, "Yeah, problem solved. 50:50. See you later." Chad: Don't hide from me, for God's sake. Joel: Talking about Facebook, do you think Facebook uses Sheryl Sandberg as a crutch for the rest of their diverse ... you're nodding your head, yeah. Julie Sowash: Yeah. Joel: Talk about that. Chad: Are you not leaning in right now? Julie Sowash: I am not fucking leaning in. I'm sorry, but that bitch took me for [crosstalk 00:33:20] but she took me for a ride. Her values and her actions are completely separate. Joel: Tell me about that, because I don't know what you're referring to. Julie Sowash: Well, she has been actually one of the biggest- Chad: Hey, chief? Julie Sowash: I need more beer. She's been one of the biggest veils, the transparency veil and one of the biggest secret keepers in Facebook, whether it's coming to how they're using your data or what their employment numbers look like [crosstalk 00:33:55] or how they're tracking diversity. Every single time, honest to God. She's fucking waste smarter than Mark Zuckerberg, but that's also much more devious, because she knows what shouldn't come out and she is ready to fucking hide it. And she is not about transparency at all. At all. Facebook would be a much better company without Sheryl Sandberg in the seat. Joel: Yes. Did we get that on ... shots fired. Chad: You want to check the levels again. Yeah. Now I got that shit. Joel: That's [crosstalk 00:34:30]. We need that bomb soundbite again. Chad: We're going to come down off this high and we're going to close out. Joel: We have one shout out that we really need to do and that's the Talent Nexus team. Chad: That's what I wanted to do. Joel: Oh, that's what you're doing? Well, go with it. Go with it. Chad: Talent Nexus came to us and they said, "We want to do videos of you, Chad and Cheese, and we're like, I don't know, two white dudes with a podcast, but okay, we'll do that. Dude, it was awesome. Not to mention giving away a year of free beer and / or coffee. Joel: Mad, mad kudos, mate, for that one. Chad: Talent Nexus is definitely more than a friend at this point. Rob Prince: You've been very welcoming, and thanks for having us involved. To be honest, the worst bit about the whole thing has been putting up with two days of trash talk about beer, food, accents ... it's zed, by the way. Joel: It's hard to swallow how much better America is than England, right? Julie Sowash: Oh, for fuck's sake. Joel: So, what I want to know is obviously when you do this as a company, you're expecting some return on investment, you're expecting something. What did you internally say, "Let's do this because it helps in these ways?" Rob Prince: With you guys is purely for fun. Joel: With you guys, it was purely an excuse to drink some beer. Rob Prince: Ah, 100%, it was two solid days out of the office, drinking beer and having a great time. Chad: Here we go. Joel: Do we want to talk about HireVue? Chad: We should. Joel: We should. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So the news, I got it sparsely shared with me, but HireVue, which I would say is the, I don't know, the market leader in video interviewing, they have been for a long time ... Chad: Been around for a while, man. Joel: For a while. So, they've gotten quite a bit of investment money. My guess is there was no IPO in their future. There was no recruit backs up the Brink's truck or Microsoft or someone to buy it. So the word is that they are actively selling the company. What does this mean for video, and maybe this is a good one for you, Rob, as a employment brand person or that side of it, what does this mean for video and employment, employment interviewing or video interviewing, et cetera? Is it a trend that's going down? Is this a little hiccup and just something else that's going to happen? I guess I have some questions around it because you see a lot of video companies, VideoMyJob, for example, Vervoe, Video Interviewing and whatnot, just opinions overall on where video is going in light of this potential sale of HireVue. Rob Prince: I think, in a similar way to the programmatic sales recently, I think it's a pretty natural progression. There's an inevitability to video becoming more mainstream in recruiting. Joel: So why sell HireVue? I mean, video is growing, right? I mean every everything I see is, video is eating the internet, it's eating mobile traffic, it's all video. Why now sell the market leader in video interviewing? Chad: But wait a minute. Didn't Indeed by an interviewing platform like interview.com or some shit like that? Joel: Sorry. We're working out some billing issues here with the bar tab. Chad: Yeah. So here in the UK for some reason we can't get two beers poured together, for some reason. Joel: We have some real pouring issues with the British bartenders. Chad: That's okay. We're going to fix this up. Julie is gone [crosstalk 00:37:51]- Joel: Although Julie's an expert at turning a beer into a cocktail. Rob Prince: I've absolutely no doubt she's coming back with exactly what she wanted. Chad: She's the only one who's going to get exactly what she wants. Joel: Give me Guinness with a cider and some Tabasco sauce and throw some whiskey in there, yeah, it may be user error. Chad: So, the whole leader in interviewing, I mean just interviewing period, right? But then Indeed bought an interviewing platform. There was no signal for anybody else to buy HireVue, what the hell's going to happen to these guys? Joel: I don't remember Indeed buying a video interviewing platform. Chad: No, just an interviewing, interview.com. Joel: But that wasn't video. Chad: No. That's why I was saying that they actually bought an interviewing- Joel: Well, the question's about video. Chad: I know. But if video is so important, then why did Indeed, why- Joel: Well, my question is, is it? Chad: That was my ... yes. Okay. Rob Prince: Yes, it's definitely important. Without being behind the scenes, it's very difficult to make sense of ... Some sales and buys, they don't seem to make a huge amount of sense from the outside. But my guess would be they see a huge amount of growth potential but don't feel geared up to do that without some more support, and I would guess that the amount that they've been offered is enough to make that feel the right timing. Joel: When you say timing, it's interesting, because they're feeling a little bit of legislative crunch, particularly in the US with Illinois recently essentially saying, "Look, if you're using artificial intelligence in your interviewing process, you need to let the interviewee know that that's happening," and if HireVue flag in the in the ground was, "We're doing AI with video interviewing," then that's a huge oh shit. If the government comes in and fucks all of our shit up, we better sell now knowing that that's probably the future of video interviewing. Rob Prince: Yeah. And make no mistake, there is a huge hurdle coming up for the whole interview, which is these ... two conversations are happening in parallel at the moment. One is about the growth of video and that kind of engaging content, new ways of doing these things, whether it's interviews, screening, whatever. And the other one is about diversity and inclusion. And actually those two, in many respects, are in direct competition with each other. There's no such thing as anonymizing CVs on the one hand and making sure that people are taken purely on merit. And then on the other hand it's insisting that all of their interviews are video based and immediately exactly knows what gender they are, where they're from and whether they speak with an accent, whatever that stuff is. Those two things aren't compatible in the way they're currently portrayed. Rob Prince: So you've got this now and as you said, exactly the same thing is happening with AI, this realization that actually there's more work to do here than just say, "Oh, both these things are great, let's do both." No. Make them work together, otherwise one or the other will die. It'll have to. Chad: So HireVue is taking over $90 million according to Crunchbase. Joel: I believe it. Chad: Been around for a while. Joel: Been around a long time. Chad: This is not a bootstrap gig. Rob Prince: Well, that's why then. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. There's going to be a nice size payday that they're asking for by anyone ... Joel: Assuming they get it. Chad: Well, that's what I'm saying. Apparently they haven't gotten [crosstalk 00:41:08]- Joel: And two times they're looking for $1 billion. Chad: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Joel: They ain't getting that. Chad: Well, especially again with the new regulations. That signals anything to anybody that all of the science that you've put behind facial recognition is for fucking shit right now, because you can't use it moving forward. Joel: Look, every new state that follows Illinois potentially devalues HireVue exponentially. And instead of just waiting out the clock, hoping for the best, let's put it up for sale now and hope some sucker buys it up. Rob Prince: Oh, yeah. Exponentially, but temporarily. It actually might be a great opportunity to buy into something which is temporarily damaged by that kind of ruling. That won't last. It can't last. What normally happens is technology moves quicker than legislation can. And then you often get these moments where there's that juddering halt, where the legislation's like, "Oh, shit, actually we missed something. You can't do it that anymore." It will get updated in the future, whether that's in six months or six years. There's no way that AI gets just below now of recruitment because lawyers can't work out how to make that work. Joel: Clearly aren't very familiar with the US legal and / or legislative system. Believe me, if the government can fuck it up, they will. Chad: They'll fid ways. As a matter of fact, I think it was one of our listeners that actually said a third grader could have written the regulation much better in Illinois than these fuckers. Joel: And that's giving our public school system way more credit than it's due. Julie, I'm going to pull you in here real quickly. Julie Sowash: Okay. Joel: Video interviewing, what it means to diversity and inclusion. I would assume once you see someone that's a hurdle for D&I. Julie Sowash: That's right. Joel: Yeah. So HireVue video interviewing tool, up for sale. We see Illinois saying, "Hey, if you're using AI ..." it's not a diversity issue in Illinois, it's an AI issue. Just any opinion on video interviewing and what it means to inclusion, pro, con ... Julie Sowash: So you're interviewing, right? The premise or the thought about an interview is you're going to see the person, so you have a phone screen and then you have a video interview, potentially. Chad: Unless you're using Tengai. Julie Sowash: Yeah. But Tengai has things where, and HireVue, really, the big issue I have with HireVue is when they're taking all of these data points from my face that are telling me if I'm lying, if I'm engaged, if I'm happy, if I'm all these things, if you're a person- Joel: Which could be wrong. Julie Sowash: They could be absolutely wrong, because let's say I just happen to be super anxious. Joel: All you really need to do is take some botox to totally fool the algorithm. Julie Sowash: Oh, well I need botox anyway. However, I happen to be super anxious, so I'm making scared faces the whole time, interviews are really hard for me. Or let's say I have Asperger's or autism and I have a flat affect, or I'm super literal and I don't know how to engage in these questions, those are some of the biggest barriers to employment. And when you're reading my facial expressions, my biometrics, I don't know what the right word is, that's a barrier to employment. And so to try to say, oh yeah, this AI or this whatever bullshit is that we're using now, technology is going to fix any bias, it's not true. And that's the biggest thing with diversity is that, I talked to someone from Monster a few months ago, I've talked to so many people, they're like, "Oh yeah, we'll write an algorithm and we'll fix that bullshit." Julie Sowash: No you won't. You will make it worse. And if you think that you can fix what's wrong with diversity with an algorithm, you're a fucking idiot. It's not true. Sorry. It's not true. There has to be an element of technology and there has to be an element of humanity in the way that we attract and hire diverse people. And if we think that we can just fix it through technology, we're fooling ourselves. Joel: Do you think the boys at Vervoe are a little nervous? Chad: I don't think they are. I think they're happy at this point because they're not doing any of that stuff? Joel: Party on, dude. Rob Prince: Hit it. Chad: Hit it. I think, at that point, we out. Joel: We out. Julie Sowash: We out. Rob Prince: We out. Tristen: Hi. I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad and his goofy buddy Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google play or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. Tristen: The most important part is to check out our sponsors, because I need new tracks bikes, you know, the expensive, shiny gold pair that are extra because ... well, I'm extra. Tristen: For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Indeed #ClickIQ #Appcast #StepStone #Programmatic #Facebook #HireVue #RecFest #TalentNexus #Event #video

Gerry Tales with industry icon Gerry Crispin was off-the-chain, and this is Part III of our interview all-things-recruiting. Enjoy, get smarter and show exclusive sponsor Nexxt some love. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities.​ Chad: Welcome to volume three of Gerry Tales. Gerry Crispin is a living legend and Joel and I sat down for over an hour and a half to talk history, now and future state of the recruitment industry. Enjoy after a word from our sponsor. Chad: Okay, so you need candidates fast and you're sick and tired of being nickeled and dimed to death. I totally get it. You should check out FlexxPlan from Nexxt. It's perfect for employers and staffing firms who are busy. They need candidates and a flexible pricing now. FlexxPlan is also perfect for recruitment ad agencies who need a targeted distribution and tools to help demonstrate client ROI. Chad: If you're sick and tired of all the BS, hassle and just want candidates now, check out Nexxt and FlexxPlan with over 70 million members. Nexxt takes all of your jobs and puts each one in front of the best candidates and cross their entire ecosystem. No muss, no fuss. Nexxt does all the work and FlexxPlan makes it cost effective. Check out everything Nexxt has to offer at hiring.nexxt.com. That's, hiring. N-E-X-X-T.com and if you'd like to save even more cash, just go to chadcheese.com, scroll down and click on the Nexxt logo, discounts aplenty. Remember Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and modes of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Are you buying into the hype of all the new stuff? You know, chat bots, AI, programmatic? I mean, are you buying into all of it? Some of it? What's your sense? Gerry: I buy into all of it as an experiment. I obviously have been always a fan of the fact that no matter how radical the technology is, there's always an opportunity to play with it, experiment with it. Obviously if you don't do that, it takes so much longer to improve and we know that, especially when you're looking at machine learning tools, you need to collect data and it continues to improve on collected data. Gerry: The problem is that there's no standard that helps us better understand how one algorithm might be better than another, or how to build algorithms in a that that truly impacts the fairness of the outcome and minimizes the institutionalization of unconscious bias. Chad: So question about that is ... I mean there are some systems out there, not many, but there are some systems that are more transparent what we call white box so that you can go in and you can see how you actually got to this flow of candidates, versus black box, where you're just not going to know. It's like, well why did we come up with this result set? Gerry: But even in the white box, so called white box, often is proprietary and therefore is not going to be shared with the company that is buying it. It's a white box to the science within the vendor and that continues to be a problem. To me, it should be discoverable and maybe I have to write an NDA or something else if I buy the product but fundamentally I need to satisfy myself. The advantage, I think, is that many of the larger companies now have scientists who work within talent acquisition. So analysts who are really, really good at what they do. Those companies should be able to truly audit the technologies that they're buying into and there's only a couple of companies right now that really insist on it. Chad: Shouldn't companies really focus? I mean, when you're trying to actually gain leverage over a perspective vendor that's saying, "No, this is black box." If I'm a federal contractor, I have to be able to defend what I do and how I do it. If I don't even know how I'm doing it and how this algorithm could prospectively be biasing our decisions, right? Our slate- Gerry: Right. Chad: ... our candidate slates. I can't defend it. I can't. That could prospectively put my company in risk of losing hundreds of millions of dollars in federal contracts or perspectively billions of dollars in federal contracts. Gerry: Well, I agree and while it is a concern, it's another reason for piloting rather than going wholeheartedly into some of the technology at this point, until you've satisfied yourself that you can defend it, or that or that your vendor can defend it with their capability to disclose what they're doing and that they're willing to be a co-op, to be partners with you, which means that they're willing to be responsible for defending that. Chad: They have to take on the risk. Gerry: I've talked to a number of vendors who are heavily engaged in all of, who by and large say, "No, I'm just building a platform. What they do with it is their problem and I have no responsibility and so therefore our lawyers are telling us that if our clients get sued for bias, we're not going to be responsible." I'm going, "You may think that's so, but I don't believe that when push comes to shove that's going to happen." Chad: No. Gerry: And if you don't have enough insurance to cover that year, you're at risk as well. It's an attitude by the way, that I just don't accept. The fact is if you have tools and capability for me to be able to improve my recruitment process and you want me to invest heavily in using that, then I want a partner, I don't want a vendor. So fundamentally a partner to me is somebody who accepts part of this risk. Joel: Gerry, you have a unique vision on the global market. You do a lot of traveling. You see a lot of people around the world and give us a sense of what you're seeing globally, whether it's from vendors and technology or economies or just general employment around the world. Gerry: I have some points of view because I do, you know, go out there on a regular basis. I will tell you though, that I'm not as knowledgeable as some of the folks like Kevin Wheeler and others who really spend a great deal of time consulting literally all over the world. I try to tap into all of the people that I know in terms of trying to confirm some of the observations that I make when I go out there. Gerry: For those who don't know, once a year I take a delegation to a different country. China Gorman and I've been doing that for a number of years. We've been to China and Japan and Cuba and a variety of other places over the last few years, Eastern Europe this past year. The reason why I mentioned that is because we get to talk not only with employers in those locations, but we spend time with the government to better understand how incentives work to keep people at work, as well as as engage them to want to come to work. Gerry: We talked to professors who are teaching MBAs and business leaders, as well as spending time with students coming out of school in terms of what their aspirations are. We see differences all over the world that that fundamentally would require different models of recruiting, in my opinion, different ... and to some degree, differences in terms of how we look at at work. Gerry: Some countries culturally are not ready for the kind of work that we take for granted. We take for granted that you have a diverse workforce. I mean, we work really hard to make that happen. We know all the problems in trying to do that well but in other countries, in many cases, laws actually fully discriminate in a variety of different ways. Everything from age, to gender, to race, to ethnicity, to whatever. They are embedded in the culture and in how the government operates to incent work and not a lot of multinationals really spend enough time thinking through those issues and how they're going to address them differently in each of the countries that they operate. Gerry: So I find it kind of fascinating. So, just take something that we probably know a lot about, in Germany they have accepted a million and a half people in the last 18 months who were not from EMEA, many obviously from Syria and other countries and struggle to engage them and incorporate them into their society, help them adjust to a new world if you will, but have plenty of incentives for corporations and work to be able to put them to work. Gerry: As a result, they end up even with all of the problems, a very robust growing economy, in which they have extraordinary access to workers right across the border in Czechoslovakia. We spoke with the American embassy and the woman who was involved in the embassy had just come from Germany and she mentioned the 1.8, 1.6 million I think, something like that. She said, "So in the last 18 months, how many people do you think the Czech Republic has taken in from outside of EMEA?" The answer was 12. So she says ... and the unemployment rate in Prague is like zero. There is no employment. I mean there's no one who's not employed, who wants to be employed, but they are all, they are all from Czechoslovakia, or some guest workers from the Ukraine. Gerry: As a result, their economy may in fact devolve about 3% this year because they don't have enough people, because they don't allow enough people to work. Therein in lies some really interesting differences that to some degree we need to think about in our own country, where we have such poor discussions about immigration and guest workers and the extent to which we would acquire and welcome people with skills and capabilities from all over the world to help us grow our economy. As opposed to the fear that somehow they're going to take our jobs, as if jobs are finite. Where they're based upon our ability to move forward, not move backwards. Joel: And you spent a lot of time in Japan, they have a pretty unique set of problems don't they? Gerry: Well Japan is a whole different set of issues and we were very fortunate to be able to dig pretty deep in that. The Japanese are not necessarily known for wanting to share a lot of information about who they are. They love studying everybody else. Chad: Oh yeah. Gerry: But we were able to have some very open and honest discussions with them and their population is actually being reduced on average about 500,000 people a year, in part because no one gets to come in, they're probably one of the most closed societies in the world being on an island for the last umpteen thousand years. So their culture is very singular and as a result, they have, I think currently about 50% of their entire population, which again is getting smaller, is already over 65 and in the next few years may get to the point where it's over 60% of their population is over 65. Now that means that 35% are supporting in some way, shape or form those 65%. Chad: Big imbalance. Gerry: And that's not a good thing. Joel: Well thank God the robots are coming to save everyone. Gerry: They believe ... There's two things. One, that the robots will come and they believe that the percentage of women will increase significantly working in the workforce but there's also kind of an embedded approach to how women are viewed in terms of their ability to handle certain kinds of jobs, that I don't know if that's going to change, and their approach to work is such that the average person working in Japan right now is doing something north of 80 hours a week. Joel: Jeez. Chad: Not sustainable. Joel: Well they've been sustaining it for awhile, but... Chad: 80 hours a week? Gerry: Yeah but imagine ... Well, I'll share one of the things that happened there was a compensation because last year, a woman who was working 80 hours a week and then went home and had to deal with all of the issues from her family, killed herself. They have a very high- Chad: Suicide rate? Gerry: Suicide rates in developed countries. Gerry: And this became a national shame issue. The government told us they struggled with what do we do about this? They came up with a solution and the solution that they came up with was passing a law that stated that every corporation must make their employees go home after eight o'clock at night. We looked at each other, there's like 15 of us in the room, from the US listening to this. Obviously we're guests and we don't want to joke about stuff like this, but we're going, "That's not a solution." Chad: No, that's, that's not even a Bandaid for God's sake. Gerry: I don't even get that as a solution. But listen, it's different cultures. They have to address stuff. I love the fact that people are struggling to figure stuff out and the results of doing something will be seen hopefully and measured and people can adjust. I think we have to do the same kinds of things. I think corporations in this country have to do a hell of a lot more AB testing of tools and technologies, et cetera and then measuring the outcomes so that they can say, "Oh, I am getting more value from doing this." Chad: What about ... We just actually just talked about on the last podcast, a Australia giving 12 weeks of pretty much vacation. So you're seeing kind of like this ... Joel: Life leave. Chad: Life leave, yeah. And we here in the US struggle to be, not really as bad as as the Japanese with regard to our work is our life but that's been our culture. Our work is our life and that's not conducive to having a great life. So how do we, here, kind of push away from the Japanese way and go more toward the Australian way to be able to focus on our people. Do you think we're moving that way? Is it mainly just optics and bullshit that we're hearing or do you truly think that we're going to start getting it right here in the US? Gerry: I think if you look at normal distributions of populations, I think the critical issue and the critical difference between us and Australia and other countries is they've made choices that allow for a much greater part of the population to experience the same level of quality of life. Most of them have more socialistic, let's ... Socialism is obviously a bad word in the United States these days, but I submit that there are aspects of socialism that fundamentally a civilized country needs to address and that is things like health care, education, pension, et cetera. Most of those countries have done that and so when they talk about extending leave, they're talking about extending leave and paying people and giving them health care benefits and other kinds of things, not just for you and me who are making some decent bucks, but for everybody. Gerry: Our country, that's what we need to solve, is what kind of a society do we want. We keep arguing over conceptual issues between whatever somebody wants to call Conservative, or Republican, or Democrat, or Socialist. We have these weird conceptual fears about almost all of it. We have to come together and find that we've got a society that is going to treat everybody well in certain things and then allow for a level of individualism, if you will, in other things. Then we could start talking about stuff that Australia does, or stuff that Denmark does, or what have you. We'll never get to that if we can't decide what we will spend money on and otherwise, here's the problem. You and I might be able to work for a company that gives us a year's paid leave that's subsidized by the government in some way, shape, or form because of incentives. While somebody else is still homeless with their kids in the streets because they can't get a minimum wage beyond $7 an hour. Chad: Yeah, they're the working poor. Gerry: We need to take care of the working poor. We need to be able to help folks who by and large cannot work for legitimate reasons. We need to come to agreements about that and we need to look at in the mirror and, and say, "Well, these rules only apply to people who are a little bit more privileged." If you're a guest worker and you're under 13, you still can work in the fields five hours a day. Gerry: Fuck that. Chad: Keep an eye out for more Jerry Tales coming soon. Sowash out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show, and be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Workforce #Wages #AI #chatbots #Recruitment #Branding #Global #GerryCrispin #GerryTales

The week of July 4th is usually pretty slow, but there were plenty of fireworks this year. -- StepStone uses Appcast acquisition to slap the US market in the face -- Facebook does job search, nobody cares -- AT&T, Comcast, The Home Depot's rainbow ain't foolin' nobody and more! Try not to choke on all the hot dogs, PBR and freedom. And show our sponsors some Yankee Doodle appreciation. Sovren, Canvas, and JobAdx are our Red, White and Blue. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast Joel: Ah, yeah, still trying to shake off the smell of hotdogs, pops, blue ribbon, and freedom. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous, flying in on the wings of a bald eagle, baby. I'm Joel Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad. I can't wait until the U.S. women's soccer team win another one! No jinx. Joel: On this week's episode, StepStone goes fishing for Appcast. Some corporate rainbow flags don't fly quite as high as you think they do, and VR, yes, Chad, VR gets some air time. Grab your Oculus Rift and see how many hotdogs you can down while you listen to this word from JobAdX. JobAdX: "Nope. Neh, not for me. All these jobs look the same. Next." This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past our jobs, just half-heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job seekers to react differently why reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? JobAdX: Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people, and benefits. With JobAdX, instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection, and reducing candidate drop-off. JobAdX: You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel, begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team. Help candidates see themselves in your role be emailing, "Join us at jobadx.com," that's, "Join us at jobadx.com." Attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Joel: How was your Fourth of July, my man? Chad: It was relaxing. Didn't have any kids. Just all we had was beautiful weather and beer out on the deck out at Upland Brewing. It was amazing, then went to Swan's Eggs. They had a special beer release yesterday. So, I mean, it was amazing for us. Joel: Any fireworks? Chad: Yeah, we had fireworks the night before. So we stank of freedom the entire day. Joel: I love the smell of napalm in the morning. It spells like freedom. Let's get to an abbreviated show, shall we? Chad: Okay. Do it. Joel: Shout out. We made the top podcasts lists from two companies this past week. Chad: We're such suckers. Joel: Our buddies at Candidate.ID, or Candidate ID, or whatever we're calling them today, had us on their top five list. Well deserved, if I do say so myself. VideoMyJob, our buddies over in Australia, put us on their top podcasts list for recruiting. Always appreciate that. If you haven't seen our DEMOpocalypse with them, I highly encourage it for both of those companies, actually. Chad: Yeah, now, we're suckers for lists. Let's just put that out there, guys. Kind of like we're suckers for swag, we're suckers for lists. So Newvoe, Michael O'Dell ... Neuvoo. I'm sorry. Is it Neuvoo? I think it's Neuvoo. Joel: Yeah, and you forgot booze as part of our sucker's list. Chad: Yeah, booze is always a part of it as well. So we got the T-shirts and can koozies, which I displayed on Twitter and Facebook from the peeps at Neuvoo, mainly or with Odell. Joel: Anything in that box for me? Chad: Oh yeah. I got a XXL. And- Joel: You had to throw a fat-boy joke in there, didn't you? Chad: No, I didn't. Chad: It's what you wear. It's not my fault, and a couple of koozies for you, so yeah, they're good to go. Joel: So you already shouted out to the U.S. soccer team. I'm a tad bit concerned because when they beat the Brits, they did a little pinkie T gesture. And he country of England is freaking out about it. Chad: Yeah, I heard. Joel: So if they're freaking out about that, we're going to really fuck shit up because were going way beyond T gestures. Chad: No, England's just pissed off because they're supposed to be good at football, and they just got their asses handed to them. And it's one of those things. And it's okay. Just don't cry so loud. Okay? Just find a corner. Get in the fetal position, and do it like you're supposed to, okay? Joel: But you already shout-out to the soccer team, but I want to give a shout-out to Joey Chestnut, who is the Michael Jordan of competitive eating, winning his 11th, I think, competition yesterday by downing 71 hotdogs in, I don't know, 10 minutes or whatever it is. The dude is insane. I met him at a Target in Fisher's I think last year. Nice guy. So yeah, shout-out to Joey Chestnut, man. Keep eating. Chad: You're the only guy I know who watches competitive eating online. Joel: That's bullshit. There are totally listeners out there that watched the eating competition yesterday. Chad: If you watched the eating competition yesterday, please fire off. Give us some feedback, and tell me that I'm full of shit or Joel's just weird, which I'm going to go with the latter. Ed: Yo, that jawn is so lame. Chad: Thanks to Louise Triance for once again having a Chad and Louise segment. We had Nathan Perrott on from AIA, who we're going to see in London here in less than a week. And also, our buddy Nick Livingston from Honeit, he survived the Firing Squad. He was like one of the first guys, I believe, to actually come on the Firing Squad as a startup, and he survived, did a great job. So it was great to be on with them during a Chad and Louise. If you haven't seen it, go out there on the socials and check out the recording. Joel: Did you make a bone-it joke while you were on the webinar? Chad: I did not. I thought we were out of those since we did it so many times. Joel: We have beat that dead horse quite badly, really violently. Chad: We have. Yes. Joel: Sorry, Nick. Chad: We're pretty good at that. Next I wanted to give a big shout-out to our buddies at Talent Nexus, where anybody who's going to see us in London and then afterwards, these guys have gone above and beyond. They've teamed up with us to be able to put together some promotions. And one of the promotions that everybody's going to love when you're in attendance at Rec Fest is the opportunity to win free beer or coffee for a year. Joel: Yeah. That's my kind of competition right there. Chad: That's right. So I'm going to let the cat out of the bag. So we've got these little Chad and Cheese cardboard faces, like the big heads. All you have to do is take a selfie with it #ChadCheese. The next day after our fucking crazy hangovers, we'll pick a winner as we also do the podcast live, hopefully from Talent Nexus HQ. Joel: Yeah, big head in your case. I'm going to go fat head in my case. I think you're fine with that, right? Chad: Yeah. Not to mention these guys do amazing like employer videos and whatnot. They have a crew that is going to follow us around. They're picking us up at the airport. They're following us around all the way through the day after Rec Fest. And they're slamming together a Chad and Cheese video brought to you by Talent Nexus. That's going to be fun as hell. So we get our very first hype video, Joel. Joel: Dude, I feel like I'm playing for the Buckeye's or something. It's pretty surreal this whole thing is happening. In addition to that, shout-out to Jamie Leonard, who interviewed for our Rec Fest and Joe Slavin, the masterminds of that conference. If you haven't listened to that, it's a quick 15 minutes of a lot of cussing, a lot of laughing, a little bit of sneak previewing of the conference. So check that out. Chad: And don't forget we're going to be headlining at Rec Fest. We're the last ones to take the stage, one stage only. And we're going to have 50 Chad and Cheese limited edition Rec Fest T-shirts that Jamie, Francesca, and the gang actually came up with. So these guys are all in, man. Joel: Get them and flip them on eBay for $1,000,000% profit, obviously. Are you ready to get to the show? Chad: Let's do this. Joel: The biggest news from a holiday week happened on the 1st. Appcast, the market leader for programmatic recruitment marketing was acquired or at least an 85% stake in the company was acquired by StepStone, which is an Axel Springer company, which Axel Springer's a huge like $7 billion publishing company with a few job boards, like a job site, total jobs, and obviously StepStone there in Germany. So great news on the programmatic news front. Chad: This is a German company pretty much bitch-slapping all the US companies right in the face, because this is the smartest, I believe, acquisition to happen ... It would've been the smartest to happen if a US company would've actually bought these guys. I mean, Appcast right now really provides much of the infrastructure of how a programmatic is done today. And I would think that most people probably agree with me on that, especially when it comes to advertise ... or recruitment ad agencies, being able to be connected with all these job sites. Chad: So this, to me, from StepStone's standpoint, is looking at, "How do we evolve ourselves? We see what's happening in the US. They're not pulling the trigger. We're going to pull the trigger. How do we evolve? And how do we start to move the ball forward in the UK or in Europe overall from duration-based ads to performance ads?" So there, this, to me, is big stand. It's really a big move that one of our companies over here in the US should've made, but they're too slow, and they got beat to the punch. Joel: Yeah. We both certainly agree on that. I think what we said to each other was, "Would you rather have Glassdoor for $1.7 billion or Appcast for $70 million?" Chad: Appcast all fucking day. Joel: For the money, it was a total steal for StepStone and Axel Springer. I also think it's a nice little step for a European company with a nice, strongholded brand overseas to make strides in the US. In fact, I think it was the StepStone CEO who said, "We've wanted to get in the US classified's market for quite some time, and this is a way to do that." I know that they've also been looking at some of the eBay classified stuff, which doesn't mean a whole lot here in the U.S., but I know like in Canada, Kijiji, which some people will know as I think one of the top classified sites up north. So, yeah, Axel Springer, StepStone, those guys in Europe looking to make a big splash in the US, and grabbing Appcast was a nice little step to do that. Chad: Yeah, and I don't see this as a little step, I see this as a big evolutionary step for those guys. And it could've been a big step for any of the job sites. I mean, Indeed, I can't believe that a company like Indeed didn't gobble them up. If Monster or CareerBuilder really wanted to make a difference and evolve into something different than what they are today, they could've made this move. There are just a ton of different opportunities that could've happened here domestically. Big, big props to our German friends over there at StepStone. Awesome. Joel: Chris Forman, who founded the company back in 2014 will remain with the company, so I don't see any major challenges or changes, excuse me, coming up- Chad: Yeah, I know. Joel: ... in the near term. But I think some potential winners in this might be the PANDOLOGICs of the world, who are doing also programmatic. If StepStone sort of stupidly launches stuff here and gives their stuff extra weight or more weight the what Appcast is ... They're able to be Switzerland a little bit in their algorithm. I think that could push more people into PANDOLOGIC, or Recruitology, or JobAdX, or some of the other programmatic options that are out there. Chad: Yeah, they're just kind of like, "We've watched chat bots get gobbled up left and right. Is this going to be a switch?" I think it is incredibly smart of any organization that's looking to try to move and evolve to be looking at these types of organizations. Joel: Do you know if Appcast took any money off hand? If they did, it wasn't a lot. And assuming it wasn't a lot, Chris Forman, man, congratulations. In five years, turn that thing into a nice little retirement nest egg, if you will. Chad: $8.7 million. Joel: Okay. That's all right. People got 10x on that investment. That's nice. Good for them. Chad: Yeah, big ups to Chris Forman and the crew. I mean, those guys just have to be as happy as anybody in our industry right now. And this is more, I think, more that validation for what they've done, the hard work that they've put in. And, again, they smartly took this technology and became really the backbone in many cases for programmatic distribution in the actual infrastructure in our industry. So, great job, guys. Joel: Moving on to that little company called Facebook announcement this week that they'll be make advertisements for jobs, loans, and credit cards, I'm not sure if there's a connection there or not, searchable for the US workers, excuse me, in the wake of a legal settlement that they recently buttoned up. This is from ABC News. Ads had only been delivered selectively to Facebook users based on data. Before this, the lawsuit had been over housing ads, actually. The searchable jobs database should be ready within the next year. Joel: So we've obviously talked about jobs being on Facebook and accessible; although making them searchable across from an advertisement's perspective hasn't been something that they've apparently done. And it's apparently something that they will be doing. I don't think it's as much strategic as it is just being free to do it because of this lawsuit being wrapped up. But it is also worth noting because its jobs, and it's a short holiday week, and we don't have a whole lot of news any [crosstalk 00:16:05]. Chad: Yeah, and meh. I mean, to me, the way that Facebook or any of these big data organizations actually make this work is being able to deliver relevant content. And since they've stripped out some of the targeting pieces that they've had for jobs, to be able to help organizations, really, look, to hire a more diverse workforce, all of this just seems very bland and milk toast to me right now because they had the targeting, and they had exactly what they needed to be able to help employers do what they needed to do. Then they just did a knee-jerk reaction, and then they stripped it all out. Chad: They have so many people are saying, "Well, what they use this to only include white males in the Midwest?" If that's the case, then guess what? That's why we have enforcement agencies like the EEOC and the OFCCP, right? So should be able to check these things. That data should be actually available to them from a targeting standpoint. It just makes sense. But we don't think about the other way around. Again, Julie works for Disability Solutions, and they help major brands target the right types of individuals, individuals with disabilities, for specific positions in their organizations. And they hire thousands of individuals with disabilities into those brands. One of the things that they did is they actually used Facebook to help target those types of individuals to help guide them into new careers. Now, that going away, it makes it a hell of a lot harder. It just makes no sense. Joel: Yeah, I think it's largely up to Facebook in terms of how successful or big a deal this is. And if they start sort of integrating job information in searches that are done on the site, I mean, people undervalue Facebook's search engine, but when you're searching for people, it's by far the number one search that people do within the world. So you mentioned Julie. If somebody did a search on Julie, not that they would, but if it knew her company and part of the search results were like, "Hey, Julie's company's hiring, and here are some jobs that they're currently hiring for," I mean, that could be kind of interesting. I don't think that Facebook will do that, but if they make jobs a core of the actual search, overall search, then it could mean something. Chad: I think a lot of it just has to do with delivery within the actual platform itself. Just relevant delivery makes just so much more sense. Joel: Yeah, and relevant ads are nicer if you can actually target for specific things, which they can't really do anymore. Chad: Yep. Joel: Anyway, technology that does make sense, a quick word from our sponsor at Canvas, and we'll talk about rainbows and VR, I know two of your favorite topics. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas bot is at your side, adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. Canvas: We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io. And in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: I can't wait to see those guys in London. Chad: You know it. I can see we're going to have to have a shot with a Aman before we take the stage. Joel: Does Aman drink? I don't know if I've ever ... We've had lunch a couple ... Well, I guess at dinner and lunch. I guess he probably had a drink at dinner, if I remember correctly. Chad: When he's not on the mic, which is, I mean, that he's a smart guy, right? So when he doesn't have a mic in front of his face, he might be in a bar, but he's not drinking. But when we turn the mic's off, then, I mean, that's just smart business right there. Joel: Yeah, and by the way, he's likely to be the funniest guy at the conference based on past performance. Chad: Easily, yeah. Joel: Although he's a big-time CEO of Jobvite now, so he might have to tone down the humor. Who knows. Chad: That's why people love him. He's authentic. He's genuine guy. He's a funny guy. I don't expect him to tone that down at all. Joel: All right. Fair enough. So corporate rainbows, this is kind of your lane. Chad: Yeah. I was listening as Julie and Torin were recording their Crazy and The King last week. And they started talking about, and, I mean, this is something that is actually near and dear to our hearts, talked about the LGBTQ community. So they were talking about the story, and after they were done, I went, and I was like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" Chad: So she pointed me to this Forbes article that showed that all of these big brands that scored really high in this index card called the corporate equity index, how they really are like speaking out of both sides of their mouths. They are doing everything they can from a "policy standpoint" to look good on the LGBTQ community side, but behind closed doors, they're also donating money to anti-gay politicians. So when you see the logos, like the AT&T logo, or the UPS, or Comcast, or Home Depot, where they do the whole rainbow logo thing, I mean, that's to be able to say, "Oh, yeah, look, we're all inclusive." But AT&T donated over $2 million, closer to $3 million to anti-gay politicians. UPS donated $2.3 million: Comcast, $2.1, Home Depot, nearly $2 million; General Electric, $1.3. Chad: So, I mean, they have all these companies that are saying, "We are inclusive." But yet the question is, are they really? It came up in the conversation, "Well, isn't this just good business?" And my answer is no. You can't have two messages. You either believe in equity and inclusion or you don't. And a great example I think is like with Chick-fil-A or Hobby Lobby, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: That's what they believe in. They're not doing this rainbow logo thing because they don't believe in it. But yet these companies, AT&T, UPS, Comcast, Home ... UBS, Verizon, they're all doing this stuff, but they're trying to play to both sides of the tracks here. And I think it's total bullshit. Joel: Now, first of all, Chick-fil-A chicken is amazing regardless of where you sit on the political landscape. Chad: Never had it. Joel: Really? Oh man. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Anyway, and a lot of world hasn't because it's still fairly regionalized. But anyway, do you think it's a concerted effort to say, "Hey, we're going to be inclusive and our marketing is going to be sort of as such supporting that," like they're literally putting one face on and then putting money towards anti-gay candidates because they're anti-gay, or do you think that they do believe in inclusion and they do support candidates, and sometimes candidates that are supportive of other things also unfortunately are anti-gay on other levels? Joel: In other words, is it so black and white that corporations should say, "Look, if you have any anti-gay legislation on the books or votes," that, "we're not giving you any money no matter what, even if your policies are supportive of tax, whatever, or us moving places, or hiring people, or minimum wage, or things like that"? Should it be that black and white? Chad: I think ... because I don't know what they're actually thinking behind closed doors, but I do know that we are in a much more transparent community world today than we ever have been. And I know throughout the years, those backdoor kind of donations and deals and those types of things just kind of like slipped under the radar because it wasn't as public, right? And there wasn't as much transparency that's out there. Chad: So, I mean, this is my message to all those companies that are out there, and I'm sure they're obviously listening, is that you've got to get your shit together, and you've got to figure out who you are. And what you said, I think makes a hell of a lot of sense. You've got to know who you're giving money to. And if they actually resonate with your brand, if they embrace the things that your brand embraces. If they do, then you should obviously support them. But if you don't, then you don't. But you have to remember, though, we're in more of a transparent society today, and these things will be brought up. So a rainbow-colored logo is not going to get your ass off of the shit list just because it looks nice and you say wonderful things, right? Joel: Sure. And I think in terms of mobilizing a movement, so to speak, a million dollars for a big corporation like Pfizer is not a ton of money. And if they know that they're losing x amount of customers and dollars because of that decision that they've made, I mean, that's ultimately going to sway them one way or the other. I think transparency goes both ways. So I think it's much easier to sort of mobilize and tell Home Depot that we're going to Lowe's because you've donated money to anti-gay politicians. That's what's going to get their attention. Joel: And I think all that transparency is great and probably brings to their attention something they didn't even think about because that stuff is out there. They could've been just giving candidates money because, I don't know, they're in a certain state or wherever they're doing business and like, "Oh shit, they're anti-gay. Maybe we should think harder about who we're giving money to." Chad: Well, and these are not huge denominations. I mean, we got like close to $3 million to 193 anti-gay politicians, right? Joel: Yep. Chad: So it's not like one or two are giving like a million dollars. But the thing is, again, you have to, you really have to do your due diligence to ensure that you are supporting individuals, regulations, things of that nature that really ... that could prospectively negatively impact your brand. And, I mean, from my standpoint, my stepson Tristen is gay. And I've never had Chick-fil-A, and I won't because I vote with my dollar in this case, and I'm not giving them anything. I don't care how good their chicken is. I heard its wonderful. That's great. Fuck you. You're not getting my money. Joel: Fair enough, man. Don't turn this on me and my love for chicken. Chad: It's freedom. You eat what you want how you want. I'm not judging you. I'm just saying how I vote. That's all I'm saying. Joel: And speaking of other things that I love, this virtual reality story out of Walmart just warms the cockles of my heart knowing how much you love virtual reality as well. By the way, have I brought up the story of the virtual reality arcade that's in my neighborhood now? Chad: You haven't, but we should go check it out. Joel: We should. So you and I, what we remember is an arcade is games side by side of each other, and you put in a quarter, whatever, and you play the game and like- Chad: Pac-Man, Galaga- Joel: ... whatever [crosstalk 00:28:20] thinks about an arcade. So- Chad: Defender. Joel: ... we're having lunch, I'm having lunch with my kids, and I have a 12- and nine-year-old. Cole is my 12-year-old, and he's totally video game-obsessed. So we see this thing that says VR Arcade. So I say, "We got to go check it out." So we walk in, and it's almost like a cube farm, where you have, I don't know, maybe a 10x10 area walled off. They have cameras in the corners that look at your movements and stuff. And they have basically a laptop computer that shows what the person is seeing with virtual reality. Joel: And so it's just like a cube farm. And you see kids with these headsets, and they're like shooting stuff and playing Star Wars with a lightsaber and whatnot. So it was pretty surreal. But anyway, so Cole does it, and he's playing like shoot zombies and whatever. And he starts ... He's looking like Wyatt Earp with these hand guns and whatnot. So anyway, he loved it. He's probably going to want some VR Arcade for Christmas. But anyway, VR is coming. And I've been talking about it forever. Joel: But Walmart has embraced it in terms of training managers, which, to me, makes ... Training workers no matter what they do with VR makes a lot of sense to me. I think at some point you'll be able to walk into Walmart, put on a VR headset, and interview for the job or whatever. You may be able to talk to your managers and go through training with VR. I think this is the future and this is just another step into the future that I foresee. Chad: Yeah. No, this is interesting. This is very interesting. I mean, it's from the standpoint of if you actually don't have a trainer there with those people, and then it's just like a recording, and you put the headset on, and they're like walking through a Walmart, and they're like, "Oh, look over here. This needs stocked, or this needs to happen, or this is wrong." Okay, I get it, because it kind of takes you through the different steps. For me, it's almost like do you not have enough Walmarts to walk these fucking perspective managers through to show them what ... Chad: It's like why do I need VR when I could just go to ... I live in a town that has in the county 40,000 people. We have two Walmarts. I mean, you can't tell me that you can't just walk through the Walmart and go through this training. I mean, again, it's just really kind of interesting. Joel: Come on, man, you might be able to see Sam Walton like actually there. Who knows. Chad: We do that with augmented reality. So you put on these glasses, and you actually walk through the store. And there's Sam, and he's like, "Don't forget, whippersnapper." Joel: He drives down in his old F-150, or whatever it is, guy with his two hunting dogs. That was great. By the way, breaking in, we have another live view from The Ladders R&D department. (crickets). Sorry, I just couldn't resist that. All right, moving on to Candidate.ID, we gave them a shout-out earlier, but they are currently crowdfunding specifically for HR folks in their recruiting universe to take stock in the company. Joel: It's not real clear what is going on. You have to kind of contact them, and they kind of take it from there, because there are regulations around this, and they are a Scottish company, so I'm not sure exactly what goes on there. So if you want to go, you can go to candidateid.cnddtid.com, which I guess is a shortened version of candidateid.com, and learn more. Joel: But they're only making this opportunity available to people in talent acquisition and the "related HR world." This is an opportunity, quote for them, "to come together, to collaborate, and create shared value. We're doing this as a gesture of friendship and good will," like good Scotsmen, Scotspeople, whatever, "because tech investing, from as little as 100 pounds," that's $132 for us in the US, "is fun. And if you own a part of our business, we know you're more likely to share with us your good ideas and feedback." So interesting. Chad: Yeah, I mean, I think it's just smart and fun from a promotional standpoint. One of the things that Adam and team I think have been really good at is getting on stage, getting in front of cameras. He's always doing these videos of walking down the street as he's talking into his mobile phone kind of video type of a thing. So he's always out there, and he's looking for different ways to be able to really just continue to push the Candidate.ID brand, not to mention kind of like the feeling of community within itself. I think it's smart. And I don't see really many other organizations, especially in our industry, doing these types of things. Joel: Yeah, there was sort of a crypto trend there early. Remember Moonlighting, you could buy shares, or they were going to do that. I don't think they ended up doing it, but I know that a few years ago, the funding rules were eased up here in the States and probably elsewhere, so I think you might see more and more companies sort of do this crowdfunding by investing in the company, not just getting shirts and swag, which is kind of what Crowdfunding the site does for the most part. Good for him. Hope he raised some money. Speaking of a company that I'd be open to invest in, Sovren ... Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job boarder intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren's so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: This is probably the perfect ending any podcast. I love this story. So go ahead, talk about this resignation. Joel: This is out of the UK, who historically have some of the best senses of humor, Monty Python, Benny Hill, good stuff. So anyway, someone resigned recently with a, "Sorry for your loss" card. 22-year-old Sam Baines gave this card to his boss with the words, "My last day at work is the 28th of July." Yeah, forget the email resignation. Forget the print-out, "I, such-and-such, have ... such-and-such's last day." Why not do it with Hallmark, do it with American Greetings, give your boss a card, and say, "Fuck off. I'm out of here"? Chad: So awesome. And, again, it's one of those condolences cards, and the verbiage inside is, "Thinking of you at this difficult time." Joel: And by the way, we hear so much about ghosting. Ghosting is so lazy, when you can be much more creative, and funny, and humorous. Do it with a card. The next time that you want to ghost an employer, go to Hallmark. Say it with love. Chad: I love it. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Facebook #ATT #LGBTQ #StepStone #Appcast #VR #CandidateID #TalentNexus #RecFest #Programmatic #jobboards

With Recfest 2019 a little over a week away in London, what better way for Chad & Cheese to pregame than to get the show's masterminds, Jamie Leonard and Joe Slavin? The boys breakdown the show and give listeners a sneak-peek into the havoc that is about to invade English shores. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Tengai: Hi this is Tengai the unbiased interview robot. You're listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I love these guys. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Bad food, worse weather, Mary fucking Poppins. We got some Brits on the show today. Chad: That's right. Joel: And what better day to have them than when the USA is about to kick the English women's ass in the World Cup. Chad: Well today, on the Chad and Cheese special edition podcast we have Jamie Leonard, and Joe Snaven, from- Joel: Slavin. Chad: Recruitment events company a.k.a. big fucking RecFest. All the way from London, let me hear it guys. Chad: So guy's you're going to have to be a little gentle on Joel because yesterday was Canada Day, and he's drunk on Canadian beer. I didn't even know Canada had a day. I mean Canada- is Canada big enough population wise? Joel: Ruin the towel on me today. Jamie: Is that like the 4th of July for Canadians? Joel: It's, yeah it's a colony like America, to Jamie. Jamie: Thank you for that. Chad: Today as Joel is recovering from a hangover, we're going to be incredibly loud and we're going to talk about RecFest. So, Jamie, Joel and I have been talking about Wreck Fest for fucking months now, because we're really excited because we've never been before. Tell us what we're going to expect. Joel: Who the fuck are you guys? Jamie: What the fuck are we guys? So it's a full on festival. So, we've been running RecFest for this will be year 6. To date it kind of started off as pretty much a conference room day drinking, and its slowly progressed into what it is now. So we've hired a big field, we've put down five marquee big tops a hold, 600 people each, we've had to lay wifi cable in, we've got 3000 recruiters, a bunch of sponsors, a hell a lot of alcohol, food, music afterwards, and it's- the tagline is it's the largest independent event for TA on the planet. We're not bigger than the Anaheim guys on LinkedIn yet, but you know we're on the march. Joel: It's basically Glastonbury for recruiters, or Coachella for our American listeners. Jamie: Yeah so one of our clients, and I won't do the LA accent because I'll just offend a lot of people, but she said "I hear it's like Cher meets Coachella", and I just couldn't think of- couldn't shake that. For weeks. Me in Coachella, and what that would look like. Joel: Embrace that man. Chad: That's good shit. That's good shit. So, how many speakers- you have five fucking stages for god sakes- how many- this is all one day, how many speakers? Jamie: So we've got just over a hundred speakers in total. Chad: Holy shit. And you chose to close the entire day, bars open at noon, this thing starts like around nine, or something like that? Jamie: Yeah, it starts at nine, so you know a good three hours, four hours, before the bar opens. Chad: You guys chose to bring us in to close this motherfucker out, so why choose a couple of dumb yanks to come on stage and break shit? Jamie: Because if you know the RecFest audience, by that time in the day they're slightly, what's the word I'm looking for... pissed. Usually. By that point and you know, maybe talking about- Joel: Belligerent. Jamie: Some one to come on and talk about the intricacies of DNI profiling probably isn't the best thing these guys want, that they want solid banter. They want piss taking, so I've been a fan of the podcast for many years and thought that this would be a great way to close the show up, because anywhere I've heard you guys talk, there's usually beers anyway, so it's like these guys are used to dealing with a rowdy crowd. Joe: And as the American representative here on the ground in the UK, when Jamie means pissed, it means drunk. Jamie: Yep. Sorry Joe's translating for me. Joe: And when he's asking you guys to piss take, that means make fun of people. Jamie: Yeah. Joe's here as the official English American translator. Joel: Yeah this thing is a who's who of celebrities in our industry. From Charney, to Levy, Aman Brar, the newly minted CEO of JobVia. I mean you guys have done a kick ass job. I know I speak for both Chad and I in saying that we're honored to be on the main stage closing this show. Jamie: Thank you. Joel: Torin's going to be so jealous. Chad: Torin's going to be jealous, the Hung Lees of the world, the Bill Boormans of the world, I mean again, from across the pond from here in the US, it's really, if you didn't get a ticket, well it's too fucking bad because they're sold out. But, from what I'm hearing, and this year's not over yet, so I'm not going to keep you to this, you're looking to make this thing even fucking bigger next year? Jamie: Yeah, so you know we looked at different options, do we take it to the states? Which I don't think is the right idea. I spoke a lot to Lars yesterday about this, and I'm not sure it would work right now. Or do we try and make it a destination spot for people to come in from outside the UK? And if you're going to do that you need to give people more than a day, so we're looking at plans at the moment to potentially expand this out to a two day conference, two day festival. And then work with other event organizers around that to make London a bit of a destination spot that week, for people in the TA space that want to fly over. Not just from Europe, from the US, and around the UK. They want to come experience all the UK has to offer when it comes to TA resource and recruiting, so that's the plan. Jamie: We've got the venue for next year, that's good. It's now just working out the intricacies of going two days, because one day is difficult, with this many people, two days starts to get quite complicated. But I'm sure the team will figure it out. I won't, because I don't get involved in that shit, I'll turn up on the fucking day and I'll drink, that's fine. Chad: See that's a great leader right there. You know you have the vision, you can- you guys are doing four day work weeks, which I think is just fucking amazing. You're going to have to tell us a little bit about that. And at the end of this, you're like "you know what? I trust you guys to make sure that this shit happens. Go do it", that is a fucking leader. Jamie: Yeah, you know I'm at a place now where I know when it's time for me to step in and time for me to just get out of the way. And we have a fantastic team. They've managed to pull this off with working a four day week, which is impressive. They've rose to the challenge every time. We've double RecFest every year since we started. It went a hundred, to 200, to 400, to 800, 1500, now 3000. So this team of superheros, they can do anything. I'm sure they'll rise to the task. Joel: Jamie there aren't very many, if at all, vendors associated with the show. There's no expo hall, there's no gold and silver sponsors. Jamie: No. Joel: Is that going to change? Is that by design? What was the thinking around that? Jamie: I don't want to knock any of the exhibitor companies, like they will do their shit really well, but I used to work at Monster, and I can't remember a worse time than being hungover on an exhibition floor. Jamie: I can't remember anything worse than- it just, it's a very unnatural process. The whole idea of grabbing people, scanning them, qualifying them, demoing them. It just is very unnatural, and I don't think it's the right way to do business. Jamie: So we've got vendors here, but they're doing things like... one of the vendors is bringing a litter of puppies for people to play with. Joel: Oh yeah! Jamie: One of the vendors is bringing Tengai. Tengai, you guys know Tengai. Tengai is here right, so that's the sort of shit that people bring to RecFest. It's more interactive, a bit more immersive, not just "hey let me come and demo you, and scan you", I've never been a big fan of that format. There's a lot of networking to be done as well. There's a lot of opportunities to have decent conversations at the bar, or elsewhere. RecFest is a bit more chilled out. Yeah, look there's vendors here, we have sponsorship money, we got some great partners, but it's not as in your face as it is with the big conferences, and it's not as forced down your throat as some of the others. Joel: I hear that robot can drink everyone under the table. Chad: Yeah and anybody who doesn't get pictures with puppies, and pictures with Tengai, you're just not fucking human. I mean, I'm sorry, those are the two coolest things. We had a chance to meet Tengai in Portugal, and we all thought- I mean Joel and I thought it was pretty fucking creepy, but, we got in front of Tengai, and actually interacted, and it was like one of those "I got to take a selfie, I've got to have five or six different people take pictures of me", it is like one of the coolest things. Jamie: Yeah. From our point of view, I'm a fan. We like it when people push the envelope with this sort of thing. I think it's going to be interesting watching the recruiters interact with it, and see if this is potentially a threat. I'm not one of these fear mongers that preach that robots are going to take over our industry one day, but it's an interesting concept. They're definitely pushing the envelope, and it's very, very early on at the moment. So I don't think anyone should judge it, I certainly think they should be applauded for trying something like this. Chad: Yeah. Jamie: Let's see if they can then turn it into a commercial model afterwards. Chad: Who's bringing the puppies? That's what I want to know. Jamie: Tribepad, so a big ATS in the UK are bringing- I think they went to another event and one of them took their own dog and it got overrun with everyone's hanging around. And I was just like, just amplify that by 10. Just bring 20 puppies and see what happens. And they did. Joel: Assuming Chad's wife is going, they're going to fly home about five puppies. Chad: No. Not happening. I don't even want to get into that story. Not to mention the last one, we haven't even talked about. We have put together a promotion, or actually Talent Nexus, has put together a promotion where on the day of, we're going to give away a free year of beer or coffee to some lucky RecFest goer. When you get in there you'll see the promotion will be there, I'm not going to tell you about it, we're going to let it be a surprise, but we're really excited about that! And the thing that I'm really excited about, Joel knows this, I love fucking t-shirts. RecFest created their own Chad and Cheese t-shirt, limited 50. Only 50 of these things, and if you're at the main stage, during our headlining gig, where there's going to be no other stages open, only our stage, we're going to be throwing 50 of these bitches off the stage. Jamie: You're potentially going to cause some sort of riot, you do know that don't you? [crosstalk 00:11:43] My public liability is only 5 million on this one, so if people start getting crushed and shit, I'm holding you guys accountable. Chad: Can't promise anything. Joel: What are you talking about? I think we might be able to fix Brexit during our session. Jamie: Good one. Because your politics are so good at the moment as well. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joe: Yo that John is so lame. Jamie: Yeah, we can have a who's got the worst politics off if you want. Chad: I don't even want to have that conversation, I'm having too much fun right now. Chad: Well guys, so we've got next week RecFest. Anything else you want to talk about before we dump this thing? Joel: I say we get predictions for today's match. US versus England. [crosstalk 00:12:25] Joe: I grew up in New York, I spent about 40 years in New York so I'm quite torn. Being an American I prefer underdogs. The England team is the underdog, and I've lived here for 18 years now, so I've got strong pull there. But I also love the American team and I've supported them ever since I saw them whoop China many many- in the early 90's I think. So I don't think I really know who I want until the first goal goes in. Jamie: Fair enough. You're on the fence, you're on the fence. Chad: All right, yeah I think it's fairly simple, it's going to be three one, USA, we're going to on to win this bitch. Germany's out, right, so I think Germany was really the biggest threat that we had other than England, but once we take care of England today we'll be on stage next week and Joel's going to be in his red white and blue speedo. Joel: I'm going to go two nil. I'm going to go shut up today. Jamie: I really appreciate you guys call it football as well, I just really appreciate that. I know how much that must hurt, to not call it soccer, so I do appreciate that, thank you. That is a big deal to us. Chad: It's not American football, but it is football, so we dig it. Not to mention when the US is kicking so much ass. Joel: Did I hear a Jamie prediction? Chad: No, Jamie didn't give a prediction. Jamie: I'm going to go two one England. Joe: Hey! Jamie: Two one England. Joel: Oh. Chad: Well that being said I think this is going to close out the RecFest edition of the show. Once again guys, if you don't get a chance to go, you're going to hear a lot of reporting and shit from us on it, but make sure you earmark next year, because this is going to be a fucking- not only are you going to see a bunch of really cool people on stage, talking about what you care about, but you're going to have an opportunity to relax, and chill out and then who knows? Maybe hit the mosh pit at the end. Joel: Guys, this was fun man. Jamie: Thank you for all the support. I know you guys have mentioned this at times, so we really do owe you one, thank you very much. Joel: Our pleasure. Chad? Chad: We out! Chad: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast, subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors, because they make it all possible. For more visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #RecFest #Event #Diversity #AI #Tengai #Puppies

Gerry Tales with industry icon Gerry Crispin was off-the-chain, and this is Part II of our interview all-things-recruiting. Enjoy, get smarter and show exclusive sponsor Uncommon some love. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Chad: Welcome to volume two of Gerry Tales. Gerry Crispin is a living, breathing, recruiting history podcast. Joel and I had an opportunity to sit down with Gerry for over an hour-and-a-half to talk history, now and future state of the recruitment industry. This is the second in our Gerry Crispin series. Enjoy, after a word from our sponsor. Chad: Dude, we're always talking about cool new tech, but it's hard for hiring companies to change. I mean, adoption's a bitch. Joel: Yup. Chad: New tech can get them to qualified candidates so much faster. Joel: I don't know, man. But recruiters already have their routine in place and nobody wants to jump into another platform. Especially when it's expensive and also requires hours, maybe days, of training. Chad: Exactly, but that's where Uncommon's new service comes into play. Uncommon pairs expert recruiters with in-house, kick-ass technology. Joel: All right, interesting, interesting. It sounds like Uncommon understands the problem of change. Chad: That's why they hand-select veteran recruiters, train them on this kick-ass technology, that has access to over 100 million active profiles. Joel: Yeah, yeah. But I bet they're expensive and I bet it require some kind of annual commitment or contract, right? Chad: No, man. Uncommon is not an agency, they don't require a contract, any contingencies. All they do, they charge one flat fee, per project. Saving, I don't know, anywhere from 50 to 80% on each hire. Versus the average agency cut. Joel: Oh, snap. Companies could save big stacks of paper. Especially if they're rapidly scaling and need hires today. Chad: Yep. And all you have to do is reach out to TAG and the Uncommon Crew at uncommon.co. That's uncommon.co. Joel: Change doesn't have to be a pain, if you're using Uncommon. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Funcast. Joel: What do you remember from that first Superbowl with the HotJobs and Monster? Do you remember anything about that period, that stuck out? Gerry: Oh, sure. I mean, the Monster ad was probably the most extraordinary thing we've ever seen, in our space of recruiting. No one had ever spent that kind of money to get visibility. And what it created was a recognition that there was going to be a major shift from the $10 billion that was being spent on print-recruitment advertising, to basically shifting all of that. All that money was going to move, and it had. In 2000, it hit 10 billion. In 2001, it moved from 10 billion to five and today it's no more than a billion. Chad: Here's the funny part, Gerry. There was another job site, that actually ran ads, that nobody remembers. Gerry: Which one are your- Chad: HotJobs. Gerry: Oh, HotJobs, yeah. So, HotJobs was going to be bought by Monster, if you recall. Chad: Yeah, but not just then. Coming out of the gate, so this was January of '99, when monster.com launched. In late January, early February, I can't remember exactly when it was, that's when we did the ad. But HotJobs also did an ad, and so did Victoria's Secrets. They had all these online properties that were finally doing ads and all of them, all of them went... I mean, they couldn't handle the traffic. The only one that could handle the traffic was Monster. So nobody remembers that HotJobs ran ads, or Victoria's Secrets or what have you. All their shit couldn't even take the traffic. So yeah, I mean it was... Now their ads [crosstalk 00:04:30]. Gerry: Well Monster was out there, significantly, before. So they had, obviously, a heads up, in terms of visibility. And then, obviously, the HotJobs managed for awhile. I don't know if you remember, but it wasn't long after when HotJobs originally sold... Right. But originally sold to Monster. And the US government sued Monster as a monopoly, to prevent them from buying HotJobs. I don't know if you realize that. Joel: I don't remember that. Chad: Yeah, I don't remember that at all. [crosstalk 00:05:08] what year? Gerry: Well that was... I'd have to go back and look, to be honest with you. But it was in the early 2000's. Joel: Okay. Gerry: So 2000, 2001, something like that. I wrote a screed post, that this is the stupidest thing I'd ever heard in my life. I was then called by Monster's lawyer defending their ability to buy HotJobs. Joel: Yeah. Gerry: And as a result of that, the lawyer said, "We want you," Mark and I, "to go to DC and be our expert witness, when we meet to defend that we should be able to buy HotJobs." And I said, "Okay." And they said, "How much would you want?" And I said, "Well, 3000 an hour." I just pulled that out of the ceiling. Chad: The ether. Gerry: The ether, and he laughed and he said, "I don't make 3000 an hour." Chad: That's your fault. Gerry: I said, "How much do you make?" He said, "300 an hour." And I said, "Okay, I'll take 300 an hour from the time I leave my home, till the time I return. And Mark will do the same." And he agreed to that. Gerry: Now when I said 3000 an hour, I meant for the two hours that we might be in the meeting in DC. Joel: Yup. Gerry: So they paid us for three freaking days, 600 an hour. It was the best deal I had ever made. And we spent a total of two hours in DC, in a big conference room with a board room where you could put 50 people around a table. There were like 10 people from Monster, and Mark and I, and there were like 30 people on the other side who represented the government. And Mark and I spoke for maybe 15 minutes, and that was it. And they won. Joel: Was it just like, "Here's our book of 3000 Job Boards."? Gerry: Yeah. And they won- Joel: "See you later." Gerry: ... and so, Monster won. But then Yahoo! bought HotJobs. Joel: Yeah. Gerry: Actually, you know who was part of that was Dan Finnigan, who just left- Chad: Jobvite, yup. Gerry: ... Jobvite. Joel: You know, you could argue that HotJobs' Superbowl ad was way better investment than Monster's. Because HotJobs spend almost all their money on that Superbowl ad, but it put them immediately [crosstalk 00:08:06] into the same... But about from a brand awareness- Chad: That's an interesting argument. Joel: ... from a brand awareness standpoint, they immediately became the number two job board. Gerry: Agreed. Chad: Yeah, but here's What happened from HotJobs' standpoint. HotJobs didn't take money from staffing companies, they only took money from direct employers. Gerry: Yup. Chad: 75% of Monster's revenues, when we launched in January of '99, were what? Staffing companies. So I had friends that worked at HotJobs and I used to give them shit all the time. Because we were raking in the fucking cash from staffing companies and HotJobs were turning them away. Where do you think they went? To me. Joel: I'm not arguing the revenue question, I'm just arguing... Like the first time I heard about HotJobs was at the the Sherman Minneapolis in 1998. They had a 10x10 booth and they were a punchline. And by '99 they had a Superbowl ad and they were the number two player in the job [crosstalk 00:09:05] space. Chad: And they crashed. Joel: No. And then they got bought. Chad: And then they crashed. Joel: And then they went public and made a ton. They made a... It's Dick Johnson, right, was the founder? Chad: Yeah, it was Dick. Gerry: Yeah. Joel: He's a rich man. I mean, you can argue all you want, but the dice they rolled, he scored on that one. In my opinion. Gerry: That's a good point. It's a very good point. Interesting. If you think about how far back that is, and still, we're talking about- Joel: 20 years ago. Gerry: ... it's 20 years ago. And you come forward and I'm shocked, not shocked, I am amazed at how much money has been spent in the first four months or five months in 2019, investing in job boards. [crosstalk 00:09:58] it's amazing how much money is being put into job boards today. Chad: But they're not spending that on tech though, Gerry, what are they spending that on? They're spending it on the database of people that are... They're spending it on the data. It's kind of like LinkedIn, right? What do you spend that much money on? You spend it on the fucking data that they have, the people. I mean, all that data, what can you do- Joel: Over the opportunity. Chad: Yeah. What can you do, from a technology standpoint, to be able to take this old, crusty job board shit and actually create something that can leverage that data. Right? And make it into something that's worth a shit in 2019, right? Or 2020, or what have you. But I mean, it's all about data right now. I believe, it's not about the technology. Because shit, Google's the one who has the technology that's powering stuff. Gerry: Yup. Joel: And Gerry's a big proponent of privacy. And if the data is so valuable and the privacy issue comes to light, which we think it all will, how much is the data worth if it's not voluntarily given by- Gerry: Right. Joel: ... the private citizen. Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative). Gerry: I think we have the technology now to be able to, literally, ask permission over every data point. Chad: Yeah. Gerry: But no one's holding anyone accountable to do that. Except, I mean the closest obviously is GDPR. But we have not, in many countries, gotten to the level where we would accept that the data about me that exists anywhere is owned by me. Chad: Well, in California, that's going to happen next year because the stricter laws, stricter than GDPR, is going into effect in California. And then you have CEOs like Colin Day who are saying, "Look, we're switching the whole entire 'paradigm' to more of a focus on the actual candidate. It's their data." And they're talking about creating these profiles. Joel: Passport. Chad: Yeah. The passport, that is controlled by the candidate. So, I believe the only way that we can actually move this industry is to have leaders, like a Colin Day, say, "This is what we're doing because it's the right thing to do." And then, for all those other assholes who aren't going to change, have the Federal Government do the right thing for the people and actually regulate it. So, it's going to happen. Not to mention, we're talking about a pod that dropped today, about 13.7 million individuals who had their data in Ladders, had all their shit free-and-open on a fricking AWS Cloud system. Gerry: Wow. Chad: I mean, it's like, "What the fuck is going on here?" I mean, Cenedella is not new to this shit. Right? Gerry: Cenedella was at HotJobs. Chad: Yeah, he's not new to this shit. Right? How do you fuck that up? Gerry: Well, a lot of easy ways. He- Chad: Apparently. Gerry: He's not the only one out there. The fact of the matter is, it's just how we treat the other side. And fundamentally, until it's recognized that candidates have significantly more power and they need to recognize it themselves. So it's not just employers, it's candidates need to step up to make better decisions or want to make better decisions about their own careers. And I think that's coming as well. The recognition that there's a lot more questions that they might want to ask, before they start making good, solid job and career decisions. Chad: Right. Gerry: And I do think, again, that that's coming. When that starts to converge, then I think we're going to see a lot more quality choices between employers and candidates. Because you'll have both sides making quality decisions, as opposed to trying to figure out how to get one side to make that decision. To me, that's always been a serious problem. Is that the transparency is always been on the side of the candidate. I, as the candidate, have to share every relationship I've ever had, professionally. Chad: Yup, souring- Gerry: Why it went well or bad. Chad: Yeah. Gerry: And on the other side I can't ask you, the hiring manager, "Tell me about everybody who's ever worked for you, in this job, and where they are now. Before I decide whether I want to work for you. And tell me about the quality of the team that you've got and where they're going, these are the folks that I've got to work with." So until we start getting more transparent about that, and most companies are not willing to do that. I mean, we struggle with figuring out how to ask the damn salary question. Why would that be a problem? You don't ask the salary question. You tell people what your compensation approach is and that your, for example, here is the band- Chad: Right. Gerry: ... and 85% of all the people we hire come within this range. And that's kind of what you've got to negotiate with. Chad: Well to get to pay transparency in the first place, you're going to have to go there. And again, this is one of the, which pisses me off, some companies have actually taken the step to be more transparent in pay. Most of them, they're covering their eyes and they're covering their ears, and just hoping that it goes away. It's not going to go away. Federal Government's going to step in. Gerry: But we now have data. Joel: Not just our government, but you've got Glassdoor, PayScale. I mean, all kinds of sites ask for salary. Gerry: Well, and increasingly, they're algorithms will put ahead those who do share that information. Clearly Google has been leading, in terms of that. But Talent Board, last year, asked the question of candidates. How they were or if they were asked salary, and if so, how were they asked? And we could correlate their ratings to pieces of that question. So for example, companies that shared information about salary before asking anything, were rated higher by those candidates. Joel: Sure. Chad: Yeah. Gerry: Companies that asked the salary question and refused to answer the question about salary were rated lowest. Joel: So you mean transparency was a positive? Gerry: This was a duh. Joel: Yeah. Gerry: But the point is, if candidate experience is going to impact you and we can demonstrate that it does, then obviously this is an issue that should be a no-brainer. In terms of, at least, at the worst, you should be asking for salary expectations. But that didn't give you much of an advantage, to be honest, over asking salary. Chad: Keep an eye and ear out for more Gerry Tales, coming soon. So watch out. Kristin: Hi, I'm Kristin. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, The Chad and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. Kristin: They made me say that. Tristen: The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new Track Spikes. You know, the expensive, shiny, gold pair that are extra because... Well, I'm extra. For more visit chadcheese.com. #Workforce #Monster #SuperBowl #HotJobs #jobboards #Yahoo #GDPR #transparency #Wages #GerryCrispin #GerryTales

If you missed the news breakdown from last week, you're in for a treat this week. The boys breakdown a bevy of news, including - iCIMS buying Jibe - AMS buying a chatbot - Where you at SHRM? Do you job! - Rumors out of CareerBuilder, and Entelo, and new headwinds for Slack. Enjoy the tsunami of news and opinion from HR's most dangerous podcast. Remember, Sovren, Canvas and JobAdx make it all possible. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Don't call it a comeback. Back with our regularly scheduled weekly roundup, this is the Chad & Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous Mfers. Chad: Yes. Joel: I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I am tired as fucking hell dude. This travel is some shit. Joel: You crazy, mofo man. On this week's show iCIMS ain't no Jibe turkey, Karen finds... You like that one? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Karen finds a mate and Slack gets a stiff arm. And we have more rumors than an episode of TMZ. Stay tuned, we'll be right back after this word from Sovren. Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Sovren: Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: Va-va-voom. Chad: I always do, every single time I hear that commercial. Joel: So I posted on Facebook this week that Spaceballs was released however 30 years ago or whatever it was, and my favorite line is when they're combing the desert, "We didn't even found shit." Chad: While they were combing the desert, the white dudes have a comb, and the black dudes have a pick. Joel: Yeah. Chad: It was awesome. Joel: Yeah, it's funny shit. I see your fort is as big as mine. Chad: Love it. Joel: Yeah, dude. You've been a traveling man. I was smart enough to take a little time off. But you had to go out to Denver last week. Chad: Yeah. No, I had a great time. Louise Grant from Jobg8. Julie was actually on stage. She fucking killed it. I was her roadie, let's put it that way, which was awesome. Joel: She is number one, were you like standing ovation, go baby go. Chad: It was awesome. We go to a lot of these industry conferences. Joel: We do. Chad: And it's really cool because you see at lunch with the guys from TalkPush and so on, Bill Fanning and Jonathan Duarte, just all these guys that you see. Chad: The things that stick out about a conference is what matters, right? As soon as you come in, you know how they give you the bag full of like, I say in most cases junk. It's got all these cheap tchotchkes and shit, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So Louise and group, they give you a bag, and it had beers in it. Joel: What? Chad: Yes. Joel: Were they in a cooler or something? Just warm beer? Chad: They were warm, yeah. So you had to get your own ice, not a ... I can do that for goodness sakes. Joel: Yeah. Chad: But giving of the beer was pretty awesome. So, that's a big applause. Joel: Okay. So was this Denver, Colorado based beer? Chad: Yes, yeah. Joel: Okay. Chad: It was all local brews. Joel: How many? Chad: I think there was just one per, but Louise gave me a special bag because she knows we like beer, that had six Senators or something like that. Joel: I feel like this whole beer thing is a little bit like thanks to us. A little bit, just a little bit. Chad: It could be. It could be. Joel: Yeah. Chad: But I have to say that was pretty awesome. Joel: This whole ... Yeah, the spread of alcoholism, you know God bless the Chad & Cheese Show. Chad: That's like TAtech. You go to TAtech, whenever we're on stage they open the bar. I mean Pete and Peter at TAtech. It's like no they get it. Then obviously SmashFly. We were on stage at SmashFly just a- Joel: Bucket of beer. Chad: Yeah, a bucket of beer was brought to us. So pretty much wherever we go they understand that it's kind of written in our silent contract, I guess you could say. Joel: In Belgium, I presented at a bar. Chad: See. Joel: That's I can die a happy man now at a bar. Chad: At Tyrone everybody was faced forward but the bar was at the back and they brought the bar in for us. So all we did was go to the back of the room and we sat at the bar and pretty much did our talk during that. But we turned the entire room around because the bar was at the back of the room. That's good shit dude. Joel: Yeah, and we've been really good at our server skills lately. Chad: Yes. Joel: Honing those. Chad: We're trying. Joel: Delivering the goods to people. But yeah, Louise that's a big thumbs up. Chad: Got to love it. Got to love it. Joel: Dear conferences, take note conferences out there. Chad: Take note. Joel: Goodie bags of beer. I'm surprised with Colorado there wasn't something green in the bag too. Chad: Yeah, I know. That sit was going around all over the place. So whether it was gummies or just the traditional, that was happening. Joel: I guess we're starting shout outs, I guess that's the first one technically. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. So you mentioned SmashFly. But huge shout out to Josh Zywien. Chad: Julia Levy from Fiserv. Joel: And Holland McCord, right? Chad: No, Holland McCue. Joel: McCue. Chad: Dombeck McCue yeah, from Delta Airlines, yes. Joel: Yeah. She's had eight names since I've heard of her. Chad: Yeah, I know. Joel: But yeah, they were brave enough to come on stage with us, talk shop, and big shout out to those folks. Chad: Yeah, and Holland actually brought us beer from Atlanta. So again, people are just getting us. So here's a couple of things from SmashFly that I loved. Chad: So, Alan and Tyler from Intel I loved that they're on stage telling everyone that their bat shit bad recruitment funnels suck. Get rid of them. Chad: I want to bring these guys on because again, they're Intel, they have a lot of money they're pushing into recruiting and what not, which I think is just awesome especially from a tech systems' analytics standpoint, a data standpoint. Chad: But I want to get these guys on the show to talk about their recruitment infinity loop. It's really good shit and we saw a lot of that where everybody is kind of moving from this old funnel to more of an infinity loop. Chad: That is more predicated on not just the recruitment process but also engagement. So trying to kind of blend engagement into the recruiting piece. Go fucking figure, right? Joel: Engagement, a common theme on the show that we love so very much. Chad: Yes, yeah. And Holland also said in her presentation of Delta Airlines that they actually have gained, they're given 80 hours back to their recruitment team through their use of Chatbots. So, I thought that was pretty cool. Chad: So hearing these practitioners on the stage talk about yeah, this is really cool. But also to be able to talk about the data and the really practical ways that they're using it and the impact on their teams. Joel: Chatbots clearly work. Like a year or so later they're clearly ... Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's one of our new stories we'll feature, a little tease there. They're going to start falling like dominoes to acquirers. But anyway, we'll get to that in a second. Chad: Too easy, yeah. Joel: Shout out to iHeartRadio. Chad: Yes. Joel: Apparently you can now listen to the Chad & Cheese podcast at iHeart. Chad: Yeah, iHeartRadio and also the new platform Luminary. We're on Luminary, iHeartRadio, and we just continued to add platform. Joel: Luminary is an interesting one. They have paid podcasts like exclusives on there. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: So let's see if that works very well for them. You had a couple of new listeners, Kevin Kirkpatrick and Stormin Norman. You know anything about these cats? Chad: Kevin Kirkpatrick, first and foremost, I just wanted to say that you're saying John wrong, okay? So he's a new Philly listener. Or maybe he's not a new Philly listener, but he's a Philly listener. Ed: Yo, that John is so lame. Chad: That's exactly right. Thanks Ed. Stormin Norman is a guy that I've known forever. He's been in this industry forever and he has 1500 domains that he's trying to get rid of just because they're sitting around doing nothing. So he's like, "Chad can you say something about it on the pod?" I'm like, "Yeah, not a problem." Chad: So if you're looking for ... These are trusted domains that he really just can't do anything with. Go ahead, hit us up on chadcheese.com. Joel: Are they really good? Chad: Yeah, some of them are actually pretty good. But I didn't go through all of them because it's like over 1,000 domains. Joel: We need to give him Jason Davis' number because he's got about 1,000 domains too. Maybe they could be like a bundle package deal. Chad: But anyway, so shout out to another, I believe, new listener, a Jose Watson. It's hilarious. He actually was listening to the Chad & Cheese podcast without headphones at work and he was asked to please put the headphones on because there's some language. So sorry not sorry Jose. You should have known better. Joel: He had a moment there, didn't he? Oops. Chad: Oops. Then Sarah Stamp who logged into and listened to our live stream on SmashFly's Transform. She's a listener but she obviously wanted to watch the show too. So, big shout out to Sarah. Joel: And that's when she discovered those guys have a face for podcasting. Chad: Especially you, yes. Joel: I'm sorry George Clooney. Have we shout out to SmashFly Transform yet? Chad: Yeah, those guys really killed it in Boston. The venue was pretty awesome. Having practitioners, again, not just talk about fluff about stuff on stage, I hate that shit. Chad: I get up and leave when I hear practitioners just talk about fluffy bullshit on stage. I was in my seat listening to things that actually mattered. So big props to Jay Z, to Tom, to Brandy and the gang over there for putting that together. Joel: Yeah. I was sad that I had to jet out early for you know personal reasons. But I was glad to see that the QR Code is making a comeback with Sprint Recruiting, I believe. Chad: Don't call it a comeback, it's been here for years. Last but not least, we've got to finish this shout right with RecFest. Guys we've been talking about RecFest for a while. I know it's like Chad shut up it's already sold out. You can still get on the wait list. Joel: You lead the way. Chad: Yeah, you can still get on the wait list. But here's the thing guys, 3,000 attendees, five stages. They're actually shutting down four of the stages and we're going to be the headliners. Chad: So we're the last ones that are actually on and through our friends at Talent Nexus, we're going to be doing some really cool stuff with them. I'm just teasing you about it now. Chad: But one thing that we will tell you about is if you're going to be at RecFest, we've actually teamed up with Talent Nexus and we're going to be giving some lucky listener/twitter follower, whatever, a free year of beer or coffee depending on what they like. If they like coffee we'll probably give it to the person who's going to take the beer. But anyway, free year of beer. Promotion should be a blast. War Games: Shall we play. Chad: God damn straight. I'm stoked. We have some other surprises with the guys from RecFest. We're putting some things together. You've got to be at the stage because we're going to be giving a lot of shit away and a lot of surprises are going to happen. So, it should be a blast. Joel: Be there or be square baby and you'll miss my red, white, and blue speed dial if you don't show up. Chad: Correct. I sure hope you don't have one of those. Joel: Boom. Tengai: Hi. This is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot. You're listening to the Chad & Cheese podcast. I love these guys. Joel: And we love you too Tengai. Chad: How could you not. Joel: Almost as much as iCIMS love Jibe this past week or two weeks ago. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: Our buddies at iCIMS who have gotten the acquisition bug here lately acquired Jibe, which I guess you would call sort of a talent platform. Chad: More of an engagement. Joel: Yeah, making career sites, being knee deep in Google stuff really early on. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah branding stuff. Sort of an attraction ... See how I did that, we'll lead into that. Sort of an attraction platform that iCIMS is building here. You'll remember they acquired TextRecruit a year or so ago as well. So they're building a nice little platform for marketing to candidates. Chad: Yeah, and I think TextRecruit has probably been like close to two years now, right? Man, it's been a little while. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So I mean once again people, I'm going to say this again and you've heard it before but too fucking bad. Let me make this very clear, this is an arms race. It's what it is. You either pick who you're going to partner with as a core tech or you try to survive on the island by yourself. That's what's happening here. Chad: So, Canvas obviously, Jobvite, TextRecruit, iCIMS, Jobvite also with Telemetry, which is kind of like a Jibe like platform, I guess you could say. Joel: RolePoint. Chad: Yeah, RolePoint. I mean there's all this that's actually happening, and this is an arm's race. Make no doubt about it. The big question is if you're a start up out there or if you're a company that has been a point solution for a very long time, are you going to join in this kind of arm's race? Are you going to try to duck and cover and hope this shit passes? Joel: So we have a whisper number for what iCIMS paid for Jibe, unsubstantiated rumors, but we like our sources pretty well. The number that I heard was 60 million. Chad: Yeah. So the amount of cash that they actually were able to put together was like over 40 million, right? Joel: Yeah. Jibe raised around 39 million, I think. Chad: Okay, okay. So you take a look at the sale on that, that's not a bad buy for iCIMS, right? Joel: No. Jibe investors didn't get quite the 10X that they were probably hoping for. It was more like the one and a half X. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah, and acquisition on the West. I had heard over the years, sort of negative rumors about Jibe and sort of they're running out of money. Joel: So I'm not going to say that it was a clearance sale, but it probably was a little bit of a bummer for Jibe investors who forked over 40 million. Chad: Yeah. Well Joe very early on became very fast friends with Google, right? With Bogomil and then now Tarquin to be able to infuse their tech, the Jibe tech with Google and use Google search, which we thought was very smart, right out of the gate. Chad: And while that was happening, guess who else was a part of that whole kind of collab that was happening? iCIMS. iCIMS is doing the exact same things. So the big question was were they pretty much in the room together, did this all kind of come about through those types of relationships? That's a good question. Joel: Well we know iCIMS is a huge fun of Google and sort of taken up the middle man of job search. Chad: Right. Joel: So, yeah, definitely a match made in heaven from a Google affection standpoint. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Joe will be joining iCIMS as a VP, I believe, or a general manager of the new Attract product. Chad: Which means Jibe's going away. Joel: Probably, probably. It's a good name though. Chad: Well last year ... No, it's a great name. Last year when we were at iCIMS HQ and we were going through the iCIMS' Influence Analyst Conference they were talking about these different components. Chad: The big question that I had for Al was dude, you can't build all this shit. You can but it makes no sense. He was like, "No, no, you're right. You're right." Which is one of the reasons why we bought TextRecruit. Chad: So I see this as something where some very smart people, the Colin Day's of the world, the Al Smith's of the world, they know their shit. He's a due diligence kind of guy, so he saw something I'm sure in Jibe that they wanted to pull in because it's kind of like cheating, right? Joel: A little bit. Susan Vitale at iCIMS will probably hate me to say this. But I like Jibe better than I do iCIMS as a brand. Chad: Yeah. I mean that's the hard part, right? Not to mention it has the name in the market. Not to mention if you pull Jibe, and this is kind of the argument that you and I have had for a little while is if you pull Jibe into iCIMS as a part of iCIMS you could have perspectively lost money from clients because clients actually have a bundle of money for a "talent attraction", talent engagement type of platform, and they have obviously a bigger pile of cash for their applicant tracking system. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Here's the thing, if they're both together, I guarantee you that pile of cash for the engagement piece is going to be much, much smaller. But if it's a different platform, a different product but just owned by iCIMS, I think they can actually keep and gain more money that way. Chad: Again, that's just my opinion but knowing how the actual market thinks and selling into this market for 20 years, that's what going to happen. Joel: I know you're a big fan of house of brands. But to me, and I could go either way, I'm a huge fan of either depending on the product. But I think with the announcement of Attract, iCIMS Attract or whatever they're calling it, I would not be surprised to see Jibe and TextRecruit sort of melt into this new Attract tool. Joel: You will probably say that's a bad decision. I would say it's probably just something that's going to have to happen regardless. But we'll see those guys in a few months. We'll have to nail them down for an interview and see what's really going on with those brands. Chad: Well literally if you have a company like ... And this has a lot to do with culture too. Let's not try to throw this out and just think it's a brand thing because it's not. The people who work for TextRecruit right now, okay, they might be getting paid through obviously the iCIMS funnel. Totally get that, right? Chad: They believe that brand. They are a part of that brand, that TextRecruit brand. If you get rid of a brand like that, something that has had a purpose and something that ... I mean Eric has obviously sold these people on for years because he believes in the purpose. He embodies that purpose. That's going to be an issue from a resource standpoint because people will leave because that purpose means so much to them. Chad: So, if they are looking to make this transition, they're going to have to do it in an incredibly delicate manner. Joel: Slowly. It will be iCIMS Attract messaging powered by TextRecruit for the next two years and then it will slowly just fade away. Chad: Again, it's a delicate conversation. Joel: It's just delicate. Delicate like the name Karen, which leads us to our next story. Chad: Karen. Joel: A love story between Alexander and Karen. Chad: Alexander Mann Solutions acquires Karen.ai. This to me is big fucking news. It's a Chatbot, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So we've got all of these messaging solutions that are being acquired. Now, again, this isn't just an arm's race for the "tech vendors." RPO and staffing see the writing on the wall as well and they know they have a better chance of building the tech and it will be adopted if it's going through their services. Chad: So if you're a staffing company and you're using these products or if you're an RPO and you're actually embedding these products and clients are paying for these products and you're embedding it into their process methodology, holy shit, it just makes sense from an adoption standpoint. Joel: Yeah, yeah. I mean if you're a shareholder in a Chatbot right now you might want to go yacht shopping because the dollars are coming. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Investment dollars we've been talking about for a long time. But these suckers are going to get snapped up in the next 12 months post taste. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We know they work. You've mentioned Holland talking about the time saved, the money saved with Chatbots. We know that job seekers like them. There's no more black hole like. Chatbots work and ultimately people are going to write checks to gobble these guys up. Chad: I'd like to dive deeper with Holland too and find out exactly what they did with the Chatbot that saved them that 80 hours because there might be ... I would guarantee there's even more that can be done. But do you know who actually works over at Alexander Mann Solutions? Do you remember? Joel: That's our girl, right? Chad: Yeah, the queen of Chatbots. Joel: Quincy. Chad: Yeah, the queen of Chatbots. She was on the pod last November. Joel: Yes. Chad: If you haven't listened to go chadcheese.com, click on podcast and just look through the November podcast. It's there, listen to it. It's damn good. Chad: So, when I heard the whole Karen thing happening I automatically thought about her. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Because she knows, I mean, she knows her shit just not from an RPO solution design kind of a thing, because that's what she spent a good amount of her time in. But also from a tech standpoint, she really knows her shit. Joel: Yeah, and she knows the players. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So for Karen to be the one that they targeted and went to acquire, and the terms of the deal were not disclosed. But our girl knows her Chatbots. Joel: So if you're a Chatbot and not using Karen as a blueprint, you might want to start doing that because someone who knows Chatbots and someone who has the money to buy them pick this one so you might want to follow suit. Chad: We'll have to look at early stage too, right, because you can't allow a Chatbot in some cases, depending on what you want to do with it, to get too big. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Because of the price tag, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Not to mention the ability to really change the road map of where that perspective Chatbot is going. So, I think we really haven't heard a lot about Karen, to be quite frank. Joel: Yeah. Chad: And I think this is probably smart because they were out there. There's no question they were shopping and they were checking out all these Chatbots. This Chatbot was probably in the right stage for them, for exactly what they were looking for. It's probably not as mature as a TalkPush, well I guarantee you it's not as mature as a TalkPush or an Olivia or something like that. Chad: But the price tag goes up dramatically when you start talking about them. Joel: Yeah, and she knows all the teams as well. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: So, I'm sure whatever talent they had had some part in writing a check to get those guys. Chad: Yeah, good point. Yeah. Joel: So yeah, modulation is all around. But this is to me going to start a domino effect. We're going to start seeing these Chatbots get gobbled up. Chad: Watch this space kids. Joel: Another space to keep an eye on is the one that JobAdX is currently residing. Let's get a word from them and we'll talk about another new CEO for one of our favorite hourly sites. Chad: Yeah. JobAdX: Finding the right fit is important when you're deciding on shoes for a long day at the trade show, when you're picking the right podcast for your commute, and most importantly when you're looking for the right candidate. JobAdX: With JobAdX you can attract more relevant engaged candidates to your jobs by harnessing the best in Ad tech targeting. From predictive industry analysis and key word quite data, to premium first page placement and reducing redundant applications, our candidate targeting technology ensures that you're reaching talent that's as interested in working with you as you are with them. JobAdX: Now with in-Ad video and multimedia you can share your employer brand story and company culture with job seekers so they can visualize themselves in your office, all hands meeting or axe throwing team building adventure all without navigating away from your job posting. JobAdX: Increased engagement makes for fewer steps between job seeker and new team member. Ready to ramp up your job advertising campaigns with the best in ad tech? Visit our new website at www.jobadx.com. That's J-O-B-A-D-X.com. Joel: So I feel like Snagajob is one of these dying stories that doesn't get enough attention. But Snagajob not too long ago was a major, major force in the job world. And they've fallen off the map really quickly. Chad: So do you feel like they're a dying brand because they did a brand refreshed, there's a Snag.co or something like that. Joel: Yeah, I feel like that was a major fuck up because when they were Snagajob, you can post your jobs and part time work and hourly folks. They were a force in that space and they decided to go platform, marketplace based Uber for workers. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And we both agreed that's a good place to go. But they have not faired well in terms of that new world. They went to Snag.co. They became more sort of native at based. Their original CEO, the one they had when we first interviewed them about this is gone. Chad: Right. Joel: The guy who took over is gone. And now they have a new CEO. So shit's fucked up over Snag. Chad: I have an entirely different kind of vantage point on this. I think that- Joel: That's why we have a show. Chad: Yeah. I think Fabio Rosati. I love the name by the way, Fabio. He stepped into the CEO position. It might not have been announced this way because he's the fucking executive board chairman, right? But I think it was always short term. Chad: And Mathieu Stevenson who's the new CEO, he was the CMO. But he joined the team in January, right? So the guy hasn't even been there a year yet. I believe that Fabio was looking to groom Mathieu to be able to take over the position so he could step back. That's what Fabio has done, he's stepping back into the executive board chair position. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So I think this was something that was kind of calculated behind the scenes. I could be totally wrong, it could be fucked up. But to me it feels like it was calculated behind the scenes and that they were looking for the right person to take over as CEO and that person is going to have to be focused on on-demand platform for hourly workers. Chad: And that is going to be a very competitive space with Uber, is now in that space. Obviously the Upworks of the world. There are just so many of those companies and I guess from my standpoint and we're obviously a little bit closer to this brand, but do you think Jobcase is going to go in that direction too as kind of an on-demand kind of a system? Joel: I think that's going to inevitably have to be part of their offering. I know they're built so much around community. But it would be an interesting part of what they're doing. Chad: Play, yeah. Joel: You know actually play because they already have sort of ingrained reviews and communication engagement amongst job seekers, which really plays well into who hiring is good with contract workers or gig workers. So I definitely think so. Joel: I just think with Snag whenever you lose a CEO and sort of the visionary, the person that you know was ... It's just really hard for organizations to deal with volatility in the CEO ranks. Joel: So, I mean maybe Snag will get it together. We'll certainly report on it either way. But I just think you never ever hear about Snag in the news, from release. I mean they have just sort of disappeared and I'm sure they still have happy customers and people using them. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But I just don't. I don't feel the same kind of energy around the company that I did just a few years ago. Chad: They still have close to 100 million registered workers and nearly half a million employers using this system. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, again, I think they've got a long runway, right? And I think just from my standpoint, this change was always something that they kind of calculated behind the scenes thinking that ... Chad: Fabio is still going to be from Upwork fame, right? He's still going to be there overlooking everything. But they were looking for the right person, I believe, to take this over. Joel: Yeah. Chad: The reason I asked about the Jobcase, your ideas on Jobcase is because they just hired Jeff Chow to be their SVP of product management. And that dude led product and design teams over at Google and TripAdvisor. Chad: So, the $100 million that they received just months back they're looking to make some very aggressive moves on their side as well. But again, you're right, they're more of that social community piece, how do you perspectively flip a social community kind of a piece into an on-demand work platform? Chad: It seems interesting because they're both in the same segment going at the market differently. Joel: Yeah. I think we should make a note to reach out to Mathieu Stevenson, new CEO, and get him on the show and dig in to what the vision is and what they're doing and what we can expect from them in the future. Chad: I'm already on that. Tease alert. Transitioning over into something we never talk about, Slack. Joel: Slack. Chad: It's interesting that people think it's a big deal that Microsoft is banning the use of Slack. Joel: They're sort of blaming it on security issues with AWS. But it's a competitive play. Microsoft has a competitor for Slack, as such they don't want their employees or their company using Slack when they have a competing product like that. Chad: Right. Joel: It just doesn't make any sense. Chad: No. Joel: Now what is interesting and this wasn't in the story, I don't think, is I understand that LinkedIn uses Slack internally. So it would be interesting. I don't know if they ... I'm sure they banned it across all Microsoft companies but I'm pretty sure that LinkedIn has been a Slack user for a long time. So that could be a nice little headache for employees to switch over to Microsoft products. Chad: Yeah. And I haven't used Teams but I've actually talked to people who do and they love it. I've used Slack, and I don't like it. I just don't like it. It's information overload especially when you get five or six people on a team and they're collaborating on something, it is a bitch to try to keep up with in some cases. Chad: It really ... It's like information overload. It's better than email, don't get me wrong. But I just ... Slack is a "finished product" it doesn't to me feel like a finished product. Joel: Aside from being a very competitive landscape, I think we've been reporting on open source products or services and Matter most. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I think it was the one recently that got 50 million. Did I hear that correctly? Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: So whenever we see a space like this where there is a main player and then it's basically commodity and people do it for free or do it really expensively, it gets in trouble. When you have big players like Facebook and Microsoft getting into this. Joel: But as you listen to ... When Slack went public, their CEO was doing the rounds on CNBC and Bloomberg and everything. They asked him that same question, you know, "Hey, you're getting competition from really big players." He wasn't super concerned. I think his comment was, "We're competitor aware, but we are customer focused." Joel: Which is I think a good way to be. In fact, he mentioned that apparently Google has a competing product. But cool for him is no one knows about it. So it is true that these big companies, the bigger companies will throw resources at creating a competitor. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But if Slack continues to iterate and I do think at some point they're going to be an office competitor, which is a big reason why I think Microsoft wants to kill them now. Chad: We'll see. I just ... Again, the whole Microsoft kicking Slack out to me just doesn't seem surprising at all. Joel: I mean the real challenge for Slack is once all the companies that are using Microsoft, when the IT departments say oh well we don't want to use this AWS service, da, da, da, we're going to go with Microsoft, that's when Slack really hits a brick wall, I think. Chad: I haven't heard of many companies switching from AWS to Azure, but it could happen. Joel: Well if the IT department says look Slack is a threat, a cyber threat or a risk. Chad: That's what this is. This is more, I think, kind of like corporate propaganda. But you know who is really good at this messaging thing? Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvasbot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas: Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off with emoji. We make compliance easy and are razor focused on recruiter success. Canvas: Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. War Games: Shall we play again? Joel: Let's talk rumors. Tons of rumors. Which one do you want to start with first? Chad: So the Entelo one is ... I mean we're going to talk about Entelo and hearing that they're just not getting traction. But you actually found something even more beyond that. There's kind of some different angles that they're trying run right now. Joel: Yeah. So we've been talking about Entelo trying to sell discount stuff, looking for anybody to buy their shit. Chad: Something, yeah. Joel: They have just been coming up empty. So, a rumor that I got was that Entelo were currently trying to get some private equity funding to merge with ConveyIQ. ConveyIQ you'll remember used to be take the interview video, sort of higher review competitor. And then they became sort of an all-encompassing platform. Joel: So yeah, there's a rumor that's emerged there. The source also tells me that Entelo was running out of options. Recent departures of VPs, of engineering products sales and marketing, which are kind of the main departments for those who don't know. Plus most of the sales team are out. Joel: So, shit's bad in Entelo. It looks like they're trying to find an exit. We've heard everyone from iCIMS, to Workday, to all kinds of other companies that are looking to buy these guys. But it looks like the clock is ticking big time. Chad: Yeah. I think for many of these startups that are starting to see their runaway kind of run out. The most important thing that companies have to understand is cool tech definitely is awesome to talk about. But if you don't have a solid revenue strategy in place you're fucked because you can talk about, you can try to build cool new tech, but if you don't have money to fuel it then you're screwed, right? Chad: That's one of the things that I think you get mesmerized into all these numbers that are thrown out from a funding standpoint, but you've got to remember profitability is the key and if you're not building toward that, and you're just building toward the new next cool feature in the next sprint, then you're really losing sight of a long term objective. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Whether that's acquisition or actually building to become your own platform. That's what I'm seeing from a lot of startups is they're not focusing on the fuel, right? You have the engine but you got to fuel that fucker somehow. Joel: Yeah. And Entelo has been around for quite a while. I want to say that they launched in '11 or '12. We talk a lot about when you build your product on someone else's stuff, that you run a huge risk of getting screwed. Chad: Right. Joel: We saw this with Facebook folks like BranchOut and BeKnown and others when Facebook changes their rules you're screwed. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Entelo's original business was hey we're going to scan LinkedIn and when someone changes their profile or they're more active, we're going to pick up these little cues on LinkedIn to tell you like hey, this person may be ... We're looking for a job, we'll have to be open to a new job than others. Joel: When LinkedIn changed their rules and they couldn't do that anymore and said no one is going to spot our shit, Entelo was like okay now what do we do? And they became a sourcing tool essentially. Chad: Right. Joel: Then that became commoditized. From what I hear, they don't even scrape their own data anymore. They either buy it or they rent it or whatever from someone else. Chad: Right. Joel: It's that whole pool of 150 candidates that everyone uses. So they've become a commodity when they used to have a pretty cool business. Joel: But I think LinkedIn pulled the rug out from under them and they've been scrambling trying to figure out what we do or what we do next ever since that happened, if memory serves correctly. Chad: Yeah. You can run an organization for a good amount of time especially if you're focused on burn rate if you have $41 million. I mean they had close to $41 million. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So they've been around for a while but still, again, it's all about that strategy and how you're going to attack the market. Are you going to attack to be able to partner and deeply integrate with these core systems? Are you going to try to build something that will stand the test of time, which is going to be hard as fuck, let's just say that. Chad: At that point, your strategy is entirely different and you're more of ... You have more of a focus on agencies and direct to clients, right? But the strategy is entirely different and I see a lot of these companies they don't even know who to reach out to. They have no clue where the cash is in the first place. Chad: They see Fortune 500 brands and they think it's going to be easy to walk in and actually sell that shit. Number one, it's not. Number two, they probably don't have as much money as you think they do. Number three, they probably have no clue what talent rediscovery actually fucking means, right? So, you're fighting all of that. It blows my mind, it really does. Joel: Mind blown. Let's go to CareerBuilder, speaking of blown minds. Chad: It's interesting because we were talking about this a couple of weeks ago and you would ask me, "Who's head do you think is going to roll?" I said Irina. I think Irina, the current CEO, her head is going to roll just because she's in charge, she's the one making the decision. It's her, right? Chad: She sets the tone for the entire organization. Well the tone has been a mass exodus of executives and very pivotal types of individuals from CareerBuilder, right? Chad: So we were talking about that and I had a bunch of people texting me and calling and all that other fun stuff saying you're right, right? So I'm not saying she's gone or, but I believe because of the whole ... Joel: Yeah, the stove is getting hotter and stuff. Chad: Yeah, the board meeting, all that stuff, I don't see it lasting very long guys. The big question is who's going to step up and who are they going to put into that CEO position? Joel: It will be another pencil pusher, which I think is what I called her when we talked about this. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: For those that didn't listen or don't remember, they had their second sort of executive leave within a year of the company and the board meeting when she mentioned, yeah, heads are going to roll. They're still trying to sell this thing. They're trying to scrap it, sell the pieces of it, and it's just not working. Joel: Irina, the nature of the beast, is most likely going to be replaced. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. I don't know how else this is going to end but it's not going to be pretty for a lot of people. Chad: I'll tell you when you can really see this thing is over, look at the bonus cycles for sales people and when those bonus cycles are actually paid out, when you start to see the mass exodus, it's fucking done. Done. That's all there is to it. Chad: That's like the last piece because there are so many great sales people already at CareerBuilder, they can see it happening internally when they see it happening internally and you see that happen after the bonus cycle, done. Joel: By the way, CareerBuilder sales people, there are a lot of Chatbots looking to hire good sales folks. Get on the phone there with AllyO and Mya and Olivia and everybody else because they're paying well and higher. Chad: Yeah, yeah. So in Denver this week and you and I are always pretty high on Google and what they're doing and it was interesting because this guy got on stage from Google, I can't remember his name. But he was talking about how Google is pretty much going to stop all the third party cookies, right? Joel: Yeah, yeah. Chad: He's talking to a room of tech vendors who rely on third party cookies for retargeting. It's like why did you just say that in this room? Was that kind of a nice little hey we're going to smack you upside the head? But he had a- Joel: Remember when they launched Facebook jobs at TAtech? Chad: Yeah, TAtech, yeah. Joel: Job boards, yeah that was good. Chad: Like are you fucking kidding me? It was a really short presentation. It wasn't really great. I guess he had to go to Morocco or some shit like that. Then he was trying to get off the stage and it was like no, you have time for questions. Chad: So I was lucky enough to get the first question and I asked him about the WaPo story this week in Washington Post that actually ... that researchers had actually called Google Chrome spyware because of the amount of cookies that it pulls in, right? Chad: So my question to him was okay, so if you already have Google Chrome which is collecting all these cookies and actually being seen and called spyware, why are you telling everybody in this room that you're doing away with third party cookies? Chad: He looked at me like I can't believe you just asked me that fucking question. Joel: Of course. Chad: Then said, "Google is doing away with cookies, next question." I'm like what the fuck is this? Joel: All right. I think that concludes our rumors segment of the show. Let's talk about Wayfair employee's uprising and call it a day. Chad: Yeah, let's close this bitch out. Joel: You know the story better than I do because it's more of your lane. But basically Wayfair furniture maker was selling furniture to, I guess what, border? Chad: No, it's the current. So the current situation that we've been hearing all over the news is kids in cages, kids sleeping on concrete, that kind of thing, all right. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So apparently the Federal Government said well let's go ahead and spend $200,000 on furniture from Wayfair for an immigration detention facility. For a immigration detention facility and employees got wind of this and they were like no, this is not right. Chad: Now, it's not that they don't think it's right that kids sleep on something other than concrete, number one, okay? So it's not that they want to take beds away from the kids. They have a fundamental problem with obviously these kids being in cages and sleeping anywhere away from their parents. Joel: Principle, the principle of the whole thing, right? Chad: It's the principle. So this impacts our industry. Everybody is like why the fucks are these guys talking about this? It's pretty simple because this country was built and will continue to be built on immigration, right? And we've been asking as our professionals and professional associations and really the largest professional association that's out there today, SHRM. Chad: Where are you? We're still waiting to hear from our standpoint, to have an interview with somebody at SHRM to be able to talk about the responses to their support of the current administration immigration laws. Joel: Yeah. Chad: We know that they're focused in and what they're trying to say is they're focused on just the workforce stuff. But as we all know, this country is blended and we can't find people to fucking fill jobs as it is right now period, right? Chad: So, the fuel of immigrants from the start of this country has never stopped. It has always helped us to diversify and to innovate and to be able to think that we can just change that overnight and stop it makes no sense whatsoever. Chad: We need a professional organization like SHRM to be able to address this and to be able to answer questions and find out why they aren't moving the dial on this conversation. Chad: They should be on the show. We should have a conversation about this because this matters. Joel: I think for me historically speaking, the way that workers uprise and sort of let their voice be heard is really unique to this time and period. Back in the day it was there was a labor union and a labor boss and they would express the views of the workers. Chad: Right. Joel: And now workers are just saying we're just going to mobilize ourselves and have a view point. What's amazing to me about the Wayfair story is these workers went to management and said we don't want you to do this. And management said fuck you, we're doing it. And the workers said, oh is that the way it's going to be? Then retaliated. Joel: That's a really interesting dynamic in the world. The way that workers are saying screw the company and we're going to mobilize and let our voices be heard. And that companies because of low unemployment have to take it, is just really an interesting dynamic to me historically. Joel: And from labor unions to sort of now, it's just a really intriguing evolution to how workers are sticking it to the man. Chad: Yeah. I'm not a big De Blasio fan. But he said something on stage last night that really kind of resonated with me. He said, "People of America don't look at these immigrants as the reason why you aren't progressing in life the way that you want to. Look at your employers. Look at the companies who aren't paying you the wages to be able to actually get you there." Joel: Yeah. Chad: That's where the focus should be and we need to get our heads on straight and we need an organization like SHRM to step the fuck up and actually start addressing these things because if they're going to get on Twitter and they're going to say they appreciate certain aspects of what this administration is doing, great. Let's go ahead and open up this conversation. Let's have a real conversation that's not all warm and fuzzy. Joel: All this excitement has really worn me out and I think I'm ready for a nap. Chad: I'm going to go drink one of those Denver beers. We out. Joel: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad & Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Slack #Jibe #iCIMS #Entelo #Careerbuilder #AMS #Karenai #Snag #Microsoft #Mattermost #SHRM

An old URL with a lot of new ideas - including blockchain, paying job seekers and a credit card (yes, credit card) - but we'll see how the company does against 40 years of industry experience. Chad & Cheese run Job.com CEO Arran Stewart through the firing squad ... gotta listen to see how he does. Firing Squad is made possible by those pillaging pirates over at Talroo. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community.​ Jordan: I be loving Talroo. They be staffing me for years now with crew of the highest caliber, and I mean crew that be ready to set sail, not some landlubber who be uploading his resume years ago. Talroo, data-driven job ads that deliver. Argh! Jordan: You be poo without Talroo. You be walking the plank if you not be using Talroo for your recruiting needs. Don't be a bilge-sucking scallywag. Avast! Use Talroo to hire better. Chad: Now, that is impressive. Not just Jordan's dialect, but Talroo's commitment to ensuring that companies looking for hard-to-find talent not only find the talent, they find a partner in Talroo who works hard to join and engage their community. Way to go, Talroo. This rum is for you. Jordan: Don't be a bilge-sucking scallywag. Avast! Use Talroo to hire better. Chad: Check them out at Talroo.com. That's T-A-L-R-O-O dot com. Announcer: Like Shark Tank, then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a fox hole and duck for cover, kids. The Chad and Cheese podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Oh yeah. It's been a while now. Firing Squad is back. We have one of the most elusive company's startups in the space- Chad: Stealthy. Joel: -job.com is with us today. Arran Stewart, who is the chief visionary officer. Puke. He must be a millennial. Arran, welcome to the show. Arran: Hello, gents. Thank you so much for having me on the show and you are correct. I am a millennial. Yes. Joel: I knew it. I knew it. Chad: God damn it. Joel: Oh, God. I know. That's just not a good thing. Arran, no one knows you that's listening. Give us a quick elevator pitch on you and then we'll get to the company. Arran: Sure. So, my name's Arran Stewart. I'm originally from a town called Luton just north of London, but I live in Austin, Texas now. I've worked in recruiting and staffing my whole career. Previously prior to job.com, I was actually the owner of a business that was part of Hamilton Bradshaw in the United Kingdom, which is owned by quite a famous person there called James Caan, a king of recruitment especially in the United Kingdom. Yeah, I'm kind of obsessed and love recruitment technology and, outside of that, I'm married with four beautiful children. Joel: Nice job. Chad. Chad: Did he say James Caan like the Hollywood actor? Arran: Yeah, the actor. Yeah. And do you know what's so funny? The name and spelling is the same too. Yeah. Same spelling, but if you Google James Caan, there's two. There's Caan, the actor, and Caan- Joel: KAHN! Arran: -the businessman, he founded Alexander Mann. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I do know them, Arran: Yeah, he founded that and sold it for an inordinate sum of money. Joel: So you love recruiting and you have four kids. Have you had a therapy session in the last 24 hours? Arran: No, not yet. Chad: This is going to be it. Arran: I need it. Joel: You might need your head checked. Yeah. Well, Chad's going to run down the rules for you. Arran: Okay. Chad: All right, Arran. You are going to have one minute to pitch job.com. Now, generally on the show startups come on, companies come on, they need the full two minutes. But when we got on the phone with Arran he said, "Fuck that. We are going to take one minute for the pitch." And at the end of the bell you know your minute is up, right. So the bell's going to start you and then obviously you have a minute to hit it. After that minute, Joel and I are going to hit you with rapid-fire Q and A. If your answers aren't concise and you start bumbling and stumbling around we're going to hit you with the crickets and tell you to tighten your shit up. At the end of Q and A we have a rating scheme here at the Chad and Cheese podcast. Big applause means you killed it, you nailed it, can't wait, we want to buy stuff. Joel: Boats n Hoes Chad: Yeah. Golf clap means you might be on your way, you need to tighten it up a bit. But the firing squad, that means you'd better take your boat- Joel: Bye bye. Chad: -and drive off shore as far as you possibly can and dump this business model into the fucking ocean. Joel: Go back to that shitty town you're from in Scotland. Chad: That is Firing Squad. Are you ready? Arran: I'm ready, gents. Chad: Excellent. Joel, hit it, man. Joel: One minute, starting- Arran: So, job.com is a automated permanent-staffing platform utilizing artificial intelligence and blockchain to deliver a permanent placement candidate for only 7% of the base salary. So we're 65% cheaper than the statistical average in the United States. The fee is the most exciting part. We split it into two. We take 2% of the fee and the other 5% is given to the job-seeker as a salary signing bonus to incentivize them and congratulate them on taking their hiring into their own hands. Arran: Because of the use of blockchain technology we're trying to create a fully autonomous platform and by using rewards and incentives we allow users to take control of their own recruitment because they're the ones with the skills, the experience, and the education. They apply for the job, they ace the interview, why on earth aren't they the person earning the lion's share of the fee? And because of that we believe we have such a unique model which will drive and change the $150-billion-dollar-a-year recruitment industry of which $26 billion is being spent on permanent staffing. Chad: There it is. Joel: Wow, very nice. Chad: Very nice. One thing we didn't get though, if people want to find out more about this wonderful service, where do they go, Arran? Arran: Very easy: it's called job.com. Chad: That is very simple. Joel: Which is where my first question comes in. What is the history of job.com? Because you weren't the first to own it. What's the history of it, how did you guys come upon it? What kind of check did you have to write to get the name? Talk about that. Arran: Okay, so job.com was founded in 2001. It was founded by a guy called [Brian Algin 00:06:27], who still works with us in the business today. It was originally a job board and had quite immense success, actually, towards around 2009, 2010. And then as time's gone on there's been increased competitiveness with Indeed's Hit Recruiter, Glassdoor, and so when we were on our acquisition trail coming here to the US we kind of heard on the grapevine through mutual connections that Brian was looking to exit the business. He'd reached the point in his career where he's been very successful and he's been one of the founding fathers of job boards in the United States. He already had offers from another major job board that we all know, but he was kind of interested in what we were looking to do for the future of recruitment. We went to see him, pitched our vision, what we're trying to achieve, and the changes we were going to make and so he agreed to exit the assets of the business to us and that completed in September 2017. Now sadly, gents, I cannot tell you- Chad: Damn it! Arran: -the size of the cheque that we wrote. But I can tell you [crosstalk 00:07:35] but I can tell you this, let's do some, let's do some head maths. Job.com had $60 million double opt-in registered job seekers listed on the platform. They had thousands of clients and also had a domain name called job.com which arguably could be the most expensive domain name in the world, easily, because of obviously, talking about an industry that's pegged to be worth a trillion dollars globally by 2021- Chad: Plus it's three letters, it's on the dot com domain. Arran: Three letters on the dot com, at, yeah, top domain. And also it has a very high Moz ranking and domain reputation ranking because it's such a legacy domain. So there's many different factors that kick in and tick, more money, tick, more money, tick, more money. Joel: I don't think anyone's dropped D Moz in a Firing Squad, ever. So, good for you, to bring that up. Yeah, this is. Every URL is dot I-O and dot I-I and we've sort of forgotten the whole arms race of dot coms. So this is sort of an interesting story. Chad: Where did job.net come from, though? It sounds like this was also a part of the deal. Job.com and job.net. I mean those are both, dot net obviously not worth as much as dot com but- Arran: Still expensive. Chad: Job.net's been around for a very long time and it has a hell of lot of trust as well. Arran: Yeah, yeah. That's exactly right. And what we've done is we've kind of split them into two because my background has always been recruitment and staffing, but specifically job boards, so we were like, "Right. Let's introduce an automated permanent staffing solution with job.com." So job.com is not a job board. We're a staffing agency. We operate as a staffing agency. We only get paid if you get successfully hired. All the typical things that a staffing agency does. But then job.net is our typical job board. It's what I would call an aggregator. So we aggregate content. Jobs can be posted on us, there's resume database search, because we also own Zillion Resumes, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but we own that, too. And so all of that's kind of packaged together to offer just a traditional job board solution, aggregated solution, and then the other tier is job.com. Chad: So, that leads me to my next question. Job.com, different model than job.net, different model than ActiveHire, different than Zillion Resumes, different than MyJobMatcher. I mean, you have so many companies that are going right now. How are you not spreading yourself too thin? Arran: It's funny you should say that. Look at it this way: it's like they're all shop windows to one central database. You know? So they're all parts of the supply chain. So when you think, and you guys know this, I mean, everything starts in life as a click through Google, typically, looking for a job, then it turns to an aggregator, then it turns to a job board, then it might go to a staffing agency, then it ends up going to the hirer. What we've tried to do is create channels and windows that take a bite out of the cherry at every possible journey of the job-seeker's process. So, MyJobMatcher and job.net are pretty much the same. MyJobMatcher's very much legacy, it was the business we started, but job.net operates in exactly the same way but with a much better domain name. So we kind of shifted everything to that. ActiveHire, again, very similar. It's still there, still attracts traffic, still attracts users, but the effort's into job.net. Zillion Resumes, which is just a database resume service has then just powered the resume database servicing job.net, and then you've got job.com, which is staffing. Arran: So really, we actually only have two businesses running. You've got a job board, and you've got a recruiting staffing agency. Chad: That job board has matching in it though, too, right? I mean, the MyJobMatcher, is that another piece of technology that's different, or not? Arran: Yeah, no. No, so it's the matching technology that powers all of the platforms. All of the platforms use the same artificial intelligence and again, they all have opportunities for machine learning points, different touch points. We like to kind of say, and I'm happy to kind of talk through this, "We're a technology business that happens to work in recruitment." And we very much are. I mean, I'm a big tech evangelist and geek and that's the key to what we believe is our innovation and success, is our technology. Joel: Arran, I'm curious about you embracing blockchain and early on that was a big differentiator for you, and maybe it was the height of bitcoin doing what it was doing a while back. Do people still care about this in terms of the employment space? What is the reason for the passion around it and why is it important? Arran: Yeah, that's such a, I'm so glad you've asked that question. So, blockchain in the beginning, when we started using it, was in its crudest and simplest sense. We were using it to create what's called a private hyperledger fabric smart contract between job-seeker, candidate, and us, automatically, as it, almost like agreed terms, like recruitment terms, automatically, on auto-pilot, on a blockchain for just trust and transparency. But really there was this huge buzz, this huge hype, and it was great for us because we, not lying, we rode with that buzz, but we really are blockchain evangelists of what it can do for the future. Arran: So we actually are utilizing blockchain in three ways. The first one is the private hyperledger fabric that I told you. The second one is a public blockchain, which is where we keep the record of when people are successfully hired, the signing bonuses, salaries, et cetera. But the third, which is our most prized possession, which is what we're working on, is Equifax for resumes. We are creating a trustocracy, a meritocracy credit scoring for resumes. And how that works is people have been giving recommendations to each other on LinkedIn for over a decade, but how can I trust the recommendation given by the person on LinkedIn? Or even the person in your reference? Statistically 30% of profiles lie on LinkedIn. 85% of candidates lie during the hiring process. How can I give context to the hirer behind the trust of this resume? Arran: So it requires to create a meritocracy and trustocracy score for both the person with the resume and the person who gave the recommendation. Then they get what's called a TM score. I can't go into the exact details of how it's going to work, because I can't give it all away yet, but what I can tell you is our goal, utilizing all of the users we have and everyone that comes onto the platform, when they request references there will be a score given to both of those users that are involved in that process, and when they get hired, if they successfully remain in place, their scoring will go up and that will be recorded on the public blockchain which we will then make available to the entire online recruitment market. Doesn't matter if you're a job board, staffing agency, you'll be able to query and reference. Just like you do, like banks do to Equifax to know whether or not this resume's true. Arran: Why would I give you a bank loan and give you money if I don't know who you are? Why would I give you a job, and put all my trust, training, education, and money behind you if I don't know if you're the real thing? You know? It's time to move recruitment on and utilizing blockchain, the transparency ledger, is a way of doing that and that's what we're working on: to create this massive central database of trusted resumes. Chad: So when you have companies like [ICEMS 00:14:36] that are talking about building a passport system, which is obviously the same kind of scenario, are there going to be all these different systems that are going to share data or are they just going to be different systems that you have to actually join into, kind of like databases today? I might be in one site's database or, hell, I might be in twenty different sites' database, but it's different information. Will this all be shared so it's the same information, whether I'm using the ICIMS passport system or the job.com system? How does that work? Joel: Yeah, who's going to standardize all this stuff? Arran: Yeah, I mean, so when you say, "standardized model," think about how many credit referencing agencies there are and different data points in order to reference people on their financial situation. Joel: There's two. Arran: I think, well, there's not because you've got multiple datasets that obviously pulled against that in order to kind of reference people. The feedback that comes into that. You know? Like I might have X amount of different people that I've got credit with and all of those data points going into that as well. So I would say that, for example, [ICEMS 00:15:42] and their passport, by their concepts, and what they're doing is fantastic and what we would look to achieve with that is, let's compliment it. This isn't actually a competition for us. This is actually about improving and bringing forward recruitment for the benefit of hirers and job-seekers. Arran: So with the passport system, because we're all from the same space, we all know that there's pretty much very similar criteria we're all looking for. We've all worked in staffing, we know what hirers need, we know what we need to tick off. So I would imagine without having oversight of exactly the data points they're using to create that standardized passport, there'd be huge amounts of overlap. So why wouldn't you cross-reference databases with each other? Why wouldn't you have that cohesion between two platforms? [ICEMS 00:16:25] is an accurate tracking system, jobs.com is a talent and sourcing platform, both of our platforms generate data that allows us to verify who people are, you share that data together to create a much more accurate blueprint of what people are doing and the fact that they're doing it honestly. So I think it's great. Joel: So this'll be almost a score in terms of how trustworthy someone is? Arran: Yeah, well, trustworthy and meritocracy. So, it's trust and merit. It's like, how trustworthy are you giving a reference, and how do we know that those merits that you gave that reference for are legitimate? Because they're the two things that matter: can the person do it? And is the person that said they could do it trustworthy? Joel: And how transparent will that be? So, with a credit, obviously with credit check I know, well, if I'm late payments, if I default, if I go bankrupt, all that has a negative impact. Will job seekers understand and know, "Hey, here's what your score is based on and here's how you can improve it or why it's not high?" Arran: So actually it's based on, sorry, my wife's just walked through the door [crosstalk 00:17:29] so it's based on, so we can't ever do anything that negatively impacts your score, legally, because potentially there's the opportunity that if we were to prevent your or inhibit your opportunity of getting a job because we'd given a negative reflection on you, that in itself... We could be liable. But what we can do with it is it shows you the opportunity to pick the skills that you are particularly good at, your experience, and various other many components as we know that make up a person's employment make-up. You can then have all of those bits verified. You don't get a perfect score just on one successful placement. This is about building longevity. Statistically people in the IT space, for Amazon and Google, I read, there's a 12-month turnaround. They come and go within one year. Which means over the course of the next five years, if people are using platforms like this, like [ICEMS 00:18:23] platform, they will begin to build a very accurate blueprint on whether or not they've been a good work person or someone that maybe needs some improvement. Arran: The only thing that you can give the hiring manager [crosstalk 00:18:34]- Joel: All right everybody [crosstalk 00:18:39]. Let's move on to the next point. I'm curious about your revenue share with job-seekers and the 5% reward, I guess. Talk about that. How much have you paid out? How much of importance is that to a job-seeker? I mean, don't they just want a job? They're not looking around just for the bonus, right? Arran: Yeah, so they are just looking for a job. I think, realistically, we appeal to a particular audience set at the moment, specifically IT, but also legal and finance. I can't divulge at the moment how much we've paid out [crosstalk 00:19:11] sadly. There's reasons and logic behind that, as you gents probably know. But what I can say is job-seekers that do come to our platform are typically, are quite often passive as well. They're people who are currently employed but if they're shown an opportunity where they could earn a 5% salary signing bonus by going and moving, it's something very appealing to them, especially in IT and technology. Chad: So you can't share aggregate numbers? Joel: Or what percentage that get the reward? Arran: Oh, so percentage that get the reward, roughly, so of the jobs that actually get posted, rather than actually people that are with the database, of jobs actually get posted, we're around about a 20% fill rate. So, 1 in 5 jobs are getting filled at the moment. And I think, more than anything, it's because we want it to be higher, we know it'll be higher, it's still relatively new. It's a relatively new platform. Joel: And is it like, I have to be on the job for 90 days, do I have to [crosstalk 00:20:11] paperwork- Arran: Yeah, you have to be on the job for 90 days, feedback has to come from the client. So, there's a chance where people can drop off, there's many things that, which is good for the hirer. Because we wanted to build it, as well, to avoid any bad actors from job-seekers because you know they exist, too. People who are just like, "I'm going to go there, get my signing bonus, move again, move again, move again." We didn't want to create a kind of burden for the employer. We wanted to create an incentive that maximized their talent attraction, got someone that was definitely wanting the job who would stay for at least 90 days, and that allows for the maximum immersion process within moving to a new job. Which is sometimes one of the biggest reasons why people fail. They join a new environment, they feel a little bit out of place, and they leave. Whereas if you know there's a 5% salary signing bonus three months away, you'll probably see it out and during that time you might learn to get to know people and like the place. Sadly we don't have any stats on that actual thing now but I'm dying to get them because I genuinely think that's a real thing. That's a real reason why people will be more highly retained, because they've given themselves the opportunity to get used to somewhere. Chad: Don't you feel like this system, right out of the gate, would be perfect for the gig economy? Because when you have- Arran: That's what it's for, yeah. Chad: So, mainly for the gig economy. How much money is actually in the gig economy on the staffing side of the house? Because what you're really doing, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're pinpointing staffing and saying, "We can do it better, faster, and much cheaper with benefits on the backend." How big is that nut that you're trying to crack? Arran: Well, the nut is probably an undetermined number, nut, should I say, because I don't think it's actually been quite done per se so much. But let's look at just quick stats for just staffing and recruiting. There's over 20,000 staffing agencies in the US, it's worth over $150 billion dollars a year, and one thing I just want to throw out there is we're not actually against the recruitment staffing agencies that it might apparently seem like. Like we're just undercutting them and we're going to beat them. We're actually a support tool as well. We work with staffing agencies. So, you might have a relationship with your client who wants the white-glove hand-holding, but at the same time, why not utilize an autopilot system like job.com which will bring you the candidate you need to place, gives a signing bonus out of our fee to them? And yeah, we split the fee, but it also allows anyone who might want to become a at-home remote-working recruiter all the tools they need, with no risk, using us. Because you pay us nothing unless someone is successfully hired and we work to staffing agencies, you know, small recruitment, big recruitment, whoever's turn. Chad: Yeah, but that percentage is going to be a lot less for them, right? Arran: Yeah, but if you're making 13%... Let's say you're charging 20%, you give us 7%, you make 13%, and I didn't have to pay anything up front, I didn't have to find any job boards to post on, I didn't have to pay for any AI or technology, I had everything done for me, all I had to do was focus on BD, which as a recruitment consultant is what I really want to be doing. So it's kind of broad strokes. It's [crosstalk 00:23:23] courses. Some people are happy with that, some people won't be happy with that. Arran: But I think that the uptake from staffing agencies has been huge. To give you an example, we are now about to announce and I can say it, we're working with Talent Fusion and pairing with Talent Fusion's RPO with Monster. So Monster will be powering their jobs through Talent Fusion through job.com. And also, we will be upselling Talent Fusion which is their 15% RPO through job.com, too, because there are, as you guys know, there will always be a company that wants a white glove. That want some hand-holding. A person. Someone to talk to. Or roles that need that. So we've got this corporation with Monster now and its partnership, which will be in the press, of how we've got this deal working. Chad: From the payment standpoint, where we start talking about flipping it over and that 5% going back to the new employee, the bonus, right, is that paid in Bitcoin? Or are we getting hard American cash on that? Arran: So we were originally going to do tokenized economy, as they call it, which would have been paid against ether and we were going to do that. It was, being brutally honest, a fad. It just didn't work out and we couldn't make that work. So it's going to be cold, hard American cash and it's paid to- Joel: USA! USA! Arran: USA! Oh, I love the USA. It's paid to the job-seeker on a preloaded Visa card. Job.com Visa cards. So if you go onto job.com you'll see the picture of what the card looks like and it's with Visa. We are doing a press release as well to announce that that will be powered now by Visa. So we're delighted with that. Arran: And so they get their cash on this preloaded card and also with that card, we want them to keep it because it's a branding exercise. Cause you imagine, I just got a signing bonus. Fantastic. I'm at the dinner table with my husband or wife and I'm like, "Darling, I got the signing bonus." Brilliant. And you tell your mother, your father, your cousin, but also, every time you go to use those, because statistically the average signing bonus will be around about $2600, every time you go to use that you'll pull it out and you'll be reminded of job.com because it's on the card. We feel that that, even as a branding and marketing exercise, is so much stronger than the traditional, I go to a job board, I find what I'm looking for, I'm gone. Or I go to Robert Half, I get a job, I'm gone. Arran: We want to build a long-lasting, recurring relationship and take people on a journey throughout their career which is why we want to do the Equifax resumes and why we've got this entire what's called autonomous ecosystem powered by blockchain that we're building. Again, I won't bore you and get the crickets with that one. Joel: I do love that the credit card on the website is not a metaphorical credit card. You literally have a credit card- Arran: We literally have a credit card. Joel: -which you'll be giving people. That's very interesting. Arran: Yeah, yeah, literally have it. Joel: You maybe broke a little bit of news, particularly news for most of our audience, that you guys will be filing for an IPO here soon. Arran: Yes. Joel: Give us the lowdown on that. Arran: Yeah, so we just completed our pre-IPO funding. We are going through our audit process now. It's nearly complete and we'll be filing [RS1 00:26:39]. We will be listing on the NASDAQ. It's not public knowledge as in we haven't PR-ed it out but to be honest we've had so many conversations now in the market that it wouldn't take long for you to find out that news. Other things that we are doing at the moment: we are rolling up staffing agencies. So we have had a number of conversations and deals that are going forward now where we are buying out and rolling up staffing agencies. As a plug, if any of you out there have a decent staffing agency with good EBITA and revenue, message me. Please do. Joel: We want 15% of all those deals, by the way. Arran: Sure. Chad: Hashtag- [crosstalk 00:27:15] Arran: Gents, if you bring- Chad: Chad, Cheese. Arran: Chad, Cheese, bring me any deals, trust me there'll be a kickback. But, truthfully, but nonetheless that's what we're doing. And honestly I'm going to call it how it is. We believe that we are what Uber was to cabs, we are to jobs. We have every intention, and that's why we're filing to go public, we have every intention of becoming that big. That's why we have 380 shareholders. We have a name like job.com, and we have technology, proprietary technology, a differentiator. Because the market's so huge we feel that we can definitely cut our niche, notice how I said niche there, not niche like we do in England, but niche, we can carve our niche out of the market most certainly. Joel: All right, so, these are some pretty chesty statements that you're making and Chad and I talk extensively about the 800-pound gorillas that are now in our space: Google, LinkedIn/Microsoft, Facebook sort of putting their toe in this thing, we already have established players like Indeed, Glassdoor, et cetera. You have some pretty lofty dreams. Are you really going to be able to compete with the names that I just mentioned as well as the big staffing firms that I didn't even touch on? Arran: Yes, so I actually don't think we are competing with them. I actually just think we've carved out our own market. Indeed is all about aggregation. It's volume. It's churn, it's SEO perfection and we couldn't beat them at that even if we tried. Arran: But we have our own part of the market. 60 million people move work every year and based on our model if we placed 1 million of them we'd do $3.12 billion dollars in revenue. Can we capture that part of the market? I think we can. I think we can because we're a candidate's advocate. We're offering a 5% salary signing bonus. We're offering cheaper staffing in a $150 billion dollar a year industry. We're looking at an industry that's hugely fragmented with over 20,000 staffing agencies. Can we carve out our own part of it? I think we can. Arran: It all comes down to partnerships. One of our major partnerships is Office Depot. We're working with company.com and Office Depot on Workonomy, it's been on CNN, it's been on TechCrunch, we've been advertising everywhere this week. The Office Depot's moving to business services and they are selling it to their 12.7 business customers. They are announcing a multi-million-dollar budget towards marketing that to customers and one of those services is recruitment and we power that, it's our service. They're reselling our service for three years to 12.7 million business customers in the United States. We have this partnership with Monster which is massive and you know they're run by Randstad. We've just announced our partnership with SmartRecruiters, it was in Yahoo! Finance yesterday, in the press. SmartRecruiters. We are working with the leading staff-providers of technology and they love our model because they see the value in it. They understand where we fit in the market. Arran: I won't take business from Indeed. I will take business that decides it needs to operate in the silo that I am in and because of that, I think, as you probably appreciate, the market's so big, there's room for all of us [crosstalk 00:30:28]. Chad: There it is. Joel: Aright, Arran. Our time here has come to an end. It's time for you to face the firing squad. Are you ready? Arran: Oh, I'm ready. Joel: He just got really calm, just then, went from this, anyway, vivacious chief visionary officer to very quiet- Arran: Humble. Joel: -scared guy. All right, I'm going to go first, Chad, if that's okay. Chad: Sure, hit it. Joel: All right, so, Arran, dude, I love your passion. I love the domain. I mean, people kind of poo-poo domains these days and it is very diluted from what it was ten years ago but I still think there's a lot of value in having a domain like job.com and the other domains that you have. I think going public is very audacious, I think the revenue share with job-seekers is, same thing. I think blockchain, the verdict is still out on blockchain in terms of searching for a job, how important it is, do people care, and I think that's the same with blockchain on just about everything that's going on right now. Joel: That being said, I think that you have an incredible mountain to climb. The competitive landscape... I think you have a lot of pieces moving in your business, to sort of make it all work, I think, to see a day where people are carrying around your credit cards and getting a piece of the pie from when they get hired, that's a very big dream and as an American I can respect that a lot, but I still think, are you too big for your britches? I think that maybe you might be. I think that at some point you might have to scale the vision back, simplify, make it easier for job seekers and employers to understand what you guys are doing. I'm by no means poo-pooing the business. But I'm also by no means saying that this is a slam dunk and it's gonna take off regardless of what happens. Joel: For me, I'm going to love watching this story unfold, I'm going to love you guys ringing the bell at NASDAQ if that's something that you'll be able to do and see what the stock does over the years and if this credit card thing takes hold. But for me, I'm just very cautious about what's going to happen, so... I got a golf clap. Good for you man, I like the vision, what you guys are doing, but I think you have a long road to go and a high mountain to climb. Chad: My turn. Prepare. All right, first and foremost, adoption is the biggest bitch. I mean, you can have amazing tech, amazing partners, but if you don't have a scheme to be able to ensure that you can bleed into the everyday routine and life of candidates and obviously employers, then you're fucked. It doesn't matter, right? Back in the days, going beyond adoption, also thinking about evolution, back in the day the newspaper should have embraced job boards and evolved their model. They didn't. They lost tons of cash. But I believe staffing is smarter than that and I believe from the pitch that I've heard today and some of the Q and A that we've gone through that you're positioned to help them evolve, which means their partnerships are incredibly vital. Chad: When I was at Monster back in the day staffing was 75% of our revenue. I don't know if that's the same key today for them but I do know that that is a huge market to be able to partner with, not to compete with, so your pitch made a hell of a lot of sense with regard to partnership versus competition. And I also believe in saying, "Look, look at all these different pieces of tech, look at all these domains" and so on and so forth. Also a great answer because the tech is behind the scenes and the key is to make sure that the candidates and the employers don't have to worry about blockchain. They don't have to worry about ledgers. They don't have to worry about smart contracts or an Equifax kind of a thing. They don't have to do anything different. The system does it for you. And last but not least, you're paying in cold, hard cash. So from my standpoint, that's a big fucking applause. Arran: Yay! Joel: Congratulations Arran. How do you feel? Arran: Yay! Oh, I feel great. And listen, do you know, both of you gents, your feedback is fantastic from both of you. Because obviously you're super experienced in our space and I actually take everything on board because being honest, Chad, thank you so much for the major applause, but Joel, in all honesty as well, your feedback is very correct because we are very much on a journey that we're very confident on but like any journey there will be fluidity. Change. Might have to go back on things. May need to be dynamic. But what I can say is we have a firm commitment to innovation, improving staffing, because you know what I care about the most, and I mean this, I'm a father of four, married man, and I understand how important it is to feed your family and pay your bills. And that is what my mission is, is to make that better for people that are looking to do that. Chad: Beautiful. Joel: And with that if you guys want to know more, check out job.com at job.com. Chad? Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's W-W-W dot C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E dot com. Tengai: Hi. This is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I love these guys. #Jobcom #FiringSquad #Talroo #Blockchain

Gerry Crispin is an industry treasure and a virtual encyclopedia for anyone who wants to take a look back at how things used to be, as well as getting an historical perspective on the present and the future. Chad & Cheese chatted with Gerry and it turned into a conversation that lasted well over an hour (too much for our listeners to digest in one sitting). We've chopped it up, and this is the first in a series of what we're calling Gerry Tales ... like Fairy Tales ... get it? Enjoy this Nexxt exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities.​ Chad: Gerry Crispin is a literal walking volume of recruiting history. Joel and I had an opportunity to sit down with Gerry for over an hour and a half to talk history, now, and future state. This is only the first in our Gerry Crispin series. Welcome to Gerry Tales. Enjoy, after a word from our sponsor. Chad: Okay, so you need candidates fast and you're sick and tired of being nickeled and dimed to death. I totally get it. You should check out Flexx Plan from Nexxt. It's perfect for employers and staffing firms who are busy. They need candidates and flexible pricing now. Flexx Plan is also perfect for recruitment ad agencies who need targeted distribution and tools to help demonstrate client ROI. If you're sick and tired of all the BS, hassle, and just want candidates now, check out Nexxt and Flex Plan, with over 70 million members. Nexxt takes all of your jobs and puts each one in front of the best candidates across their entire ecosystem. No muss, no fuss. Nexxt does all the work and Flex Plan makes it cost effective. Check out everything Nexxt has to offer at hiring.nexxt.com. That's hiring.N-E-X-X-T.com. Chad: And if you like to save even more cash, just go to chadcheese.com, scroll down and click on the Nexxt logo, discounts aplenty. Remember, Nexxt, with a double X, not the triple X. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: It's Gerry motherfucking Crispin. Joel: Friday afternoon with Gerry. Chad: Come on now. Gerry, what's up? Gerry: I like that intro. I think that's a fabulous one. Joel: He's probably never heard it before. This is his first podcast. Gerry: It is. It's close to my first podcast. Chad: Gerry, I think you should actually make it. You're a standard in the industry, so therefore, from now on, you should ensure that whenever you are going to present or anything like that, and they're introducing you, it has to be "Give it up for Gerry motherfucking Crispin." Gerry: I love that. I would like that, actually. Joel: I agree. Gerry: That would be kinda neat. Joel: That's perfect for HR, because they don't like to play it safe at all. Gerry: This is not a podcast who plays it safe for any ... Joel: No, no. That's why you're on, Gerry, because you don't play by the rules. Gerry: I don't care about the rules anymore, I'm beyond them. Joel: I'm getting to that, too. Jumping out of planes and shit. Chad: Going to Birmingham. Joel: So, a lot of our listeners, believe it or not, don't know you, the name, whatever, so I know you've done this a million times, but give us sort of the elevator pitch on you and then we'll get to the good stuff. Gerry: And the fact is, most people don't know most people. Just ... It's just the reality of it all. I will tell you that, next month, I will have graduated from college 50 years. So that will be the kind of cool thing about that. And I will you that every single year, from the time I graduated, I was in some form of recruiting. I was in career services, as a way of getting through graduate school. And most recently, in my last 20, 23 years with CareerXroads, we've kind of pivoted a couple times, but the reality is I support a community of talent acquisition leaders who hire probably between two and three million people a year. And really focus in on my passion, which is what is community? How do you really help each other succeed? Not only for yourself, but making commitments to other people as well. Joel: When did you send your first email, and when did you buy your first domain name? Gerry: Oh, cool. That is cool. My first domain name that I bought was SHRM. Joel: Noo. Gerry: Dot org. Yes. Joel: Wow. Gerry: Which I then turned over to them. My second, and my first dot com, was shaker.com, which I then turned over to Shaker. Chad: Our travel sponsors, by the way. Joel: Yes. Let's hear it for Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Gerry: I had an epiphany in about '93, something in that order, '93, '94. Things were just beginning to heat up, in effect, and I went to my college, Stevens Institute of Technology, and had acquired them, if you will, as a client. I was very proud of the fact that my alma mater was now a client. And one of my friends who still was there was the head of the library. And I went over to the library to tell him that, "I'm now a client ... You're now a client, da da da." And he was in his office, and he was turned away from his desk, and he was pounding on this little old-fashioned Pentium 286, or something like that. Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative). Gerry: And he goes, "Just a second, Gerry." And then he turns around and I said, "Well, what were you up to?" He says, "I need a new research librarian, so I'm hiring a research librarian." I said, "Oh, cool!" I said, "That fits my news. You are now my client. I will be able to get the req from your HR department, and I'll help put together an ad, and get it into the newspaper." And he goes, "Oh. I don't think so." I said, "What? What do you mean? Why not?" He says, "Well, I just put that ... I just was typing into a Usenet group, and I sent it into this one that research librarians use." I said, "I don't even know what a Usenet group is." And just then, his six minute fax machine began clacking, and after a few lines, you could see that it was a resume being sent in. Chad: What year was this? What year was this? Gerry: This was 1993. Joel: And a fax machine, boys and girls, is ... Gerry: Yes. And a light bulb went on in my head, and I - Joel: That's about right. Gerry: Said, "Oh, shit." I said, "That's a loss to the New York Times this Sunday." Chad: Yeah? Gerry: And my commissions are gone from that, you know? And I'm going, "Holy shit. What would happen if everybody did stuff like that?" Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative). Gerry: So that was my first epiphany, and then you know Ward Crispin, right? Chad: Yeah. Gerry: Well, Ward Crispin was a bulletin board guy, back in that day. And somebody gave me his name, and I called him up and said, "How do I get on this thing called the internet?" And he was actually helpful in finding the two addresses in New Jersey where I could, publicly, connect to the internet with my ... Joel: You just had a local ISP. Gerry: Yeah, local ISP. You had to have these rubber cups that you stuck on the edge, end of a phone, and it screeds back and forth in order to be able to do anything, and obviously that was the beginning of that shit. Joel: So you weren't surprised by '97ish, when the job board revolution started. What do you remember about that time? Gerry: I was writing books by then. Joel: Yeah. Yeah, for those who don't know. Gerry wrote books. These things with paper and a binding and - Gerry: I made a living selling paper books about the internet, for God's sake. Joel: Chad and I both remember those books, because at least at my company, they bought them for all the employees and passed it around. Gerry: I know. Joel: And we sent the ... E-span and Job Options, yeah we sent those with the ... When you ... You rated us as a top job site. And Michael Forest, you know - Gerry: Nation job, if I recall. Joel: Well, Job Options. Gerry: Oh, Job Options. Right. Joel: Michael Forest, who I know he loved you. And we put a sticker on it and sent it out to prospects and clients. Chad: Oh, yeah. So did OCC. I mean, we were sending that shit out all over the place. Gerry: Yep. I used to call them up and review them, and the first book, which was written in 1996, had 300 websites and a few job boards, rank ordered, in a variety of different ways. And we sold ... I gave a talk at SHRM National Conference in 1996, on HR and the internet. And in an hour after that ... Yes, true. It was the first time SHRM had ever done that. It was my first national conference speaking, and actually the projector was like a ton. It was a huge, monstrous thing that you had to play with. Chad: Oh, yeah. Gerry: And I showed slides of different ways that HR might change, given what was existing on the internet, and of course the most advanced pieces were some of the job boards that were developing. And literally, two hours after my talk, we had sold 5,000 books. Joel: Holy shit. Gerry: And Mark Miller, this was 1996 - Joel: This wasn't an overhead projector, was it? Gerry: Oh, no, no, no, no. This was on a big, huge, monstrous table, in the middle of the place. And we kind of darkened the entire room. It was really dark in order to get some kind of visibility on the screen. So it was really awful, and obviously the very primitive-looking screens. I remember asking people, and this is June 1996, "How many of you have an email address?" 25%. Joel: Higher than I would have thought. Gerry: And I asked, "How many of you have seen a page on the internet?" About 10%. Joel: Uh-huh (affirmative). Gerry: And my comment after that was, "When I'm done, if you're not ready to embrace this technology, you need to go find a different kind of profession." Joel: Or find another planet to live on, because this thing's going to consume everything you fucking do. Gerry: Yeah, but there were a lot of naysayers in those days, and from '96 to about 2000, you could have an argument, a strong argument, with folks who basically said, "This will never catch on in the short run," that "This will take decades to accomplish." And as a result, many of those who were caught when 2000 turned to 2001 and all hell broke loose. Fundamentally, it really did cause a huge disruption, right around the turn of the century. Joel: There were a lot of people saying, "We were right," when the 2001 recession hit, and all these dot coms bellied up. Gerry: Oh, yeah. I had left everything for CareerXroads by then. But I remember spending every week, every two weeks, or something like that ... Computer world would come out, and when computer world came out, I looked at the ads, and calculated the percentage of companies whose ads said, "Send us your resume via some internet approach." And the percentage was rapidly growing over the course of '98, '99 from 10% to probably 60 or 70%. So obviously people were doing something that ... Changing the game, in terms of that input. And you knew that the output was then going to shift heavily towards the net as a result. People were now engaged. Joel: If only we had bought Amazon at $4 a share. Chad: Or Google, maybe. I don't know. Gerry: Well, no. Google wasn't around. Chad: No, not then. Gerry: The reason why I could sell so many damn books was because the search engines were the biggest choke point. You couldn't find stuff easily. And you did have to understand how to use boolean. Chad: Yep, yep. Hitting AltaVista, or whatever the fuck. Gerry: Well, even Yahoo. Joel: That's when Super Bowl ads made sense. Gerry: Oh, yeah. Oh, without a doubt. Chad: Keep an eye, and ear, out for more Gerry Tales, coming soon. Sowash, out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors, because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh, yeah. You're welcome. #GerryCrispin #SHRM #Shaker #internet #Monster #History #Yahoo #Google #AltaVista #Newpaper #GerryTales

The boys cover just about everything with Smashfly's Josh Zywien, Delta Airlines' Holland McCue and Fiserv's Julia Levy. Enjoy this live show from Boston and throw our sponsors - Sovren, JobAdX, and Canvas - lots of love. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level.​ Chad: I'm going to do you a favor. Instead of forcing you to envision Joel and me playing shirtless volleyball, Top Gun style, to the tune of Kenny Loggins "Danger Zone", or even hearing Tim Sackett scamper on and off the stage serving water and cookies like a good little emcee. We're just going to jump right into the conversational fray from Smash Fly's Transform 2019 conference, where we were lucky enough to score some time on stage with Julia Levy, director of talent acquisition and recruiting ops from Fiserv, Holland Dombeck McCue, head of employer brand and recruitment marketing from Delta Airlines, and last but never least, Josh Zywien, a.k.a. Jay-Z, CMO and all around branding and marketing stud from Smash Fly. Enjoy the banter, after these words from our sponsor. Sovren: Sovern is known for proving the world's best and most accurate parson products, and now based on that technology, comes Sovereign's artifactual intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job, and just as importantly the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovern, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: Hide your kids, lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: ...So, there's an argument, and we some video vendors in the audience. There's a debate between really expensive, professionally made, video versus just getting out the smartphone and sticking it in front of a recruiting or hiring manager and putting that online. Do you have and sense, or anyone on the panel have sort of, guerrilla, amateur style videos versus professional ones? Josh: You say that as they have a professional videographer right here. Julia: There's a time and place for both, and I think we've got a lot of that professionally produced video and photo content and when candidates come to the site, sometimes they think our career site has stock imagery because our associate photos look so good. That's, I think, a challenge, and I would prefer having a blended approach, and being able to use some of the user generated video content, besides what people might post on their own personal Instagrams and things like that, which will capture in a tent stream similar to what you were seeing on the break here, but also being able to be able to get some of that. Julia: If I'm a candidate, I would want to see the hiring manager in a thirty second clip of what they have to say, or see what a colleague, someone else on the team would have to say. I think that candidates want to see that. I think that as a consumer that's what I would want to see. Joel: Where are you putting it? So, you can put video in all kinds of places and James talked about YouTube in terms of the next generation. Where would you recommend putting videos? Where's it a waste of time? Social media, what's effective and what isn't for video? Chad: Are you putting videos on Tik-Tok? Julia: Not yet. Josh: That's like, transforming two years. We'll have a Tic-Tok session. Chad: We'll have a Tic-Tok session, remember that. Joel: We've all seen your account, Josh. Chad: So, how are you using video, and then, how are you guys video? I know you are. Julia: Right now, we just have the produced video and I want to experiment and use video in our talent network forums, and I would love to use video against our job postings and in e-mails, a recruiter saying "hey, Julia." It could be a little creepy I guess. "Hey, Julia I saw that you did a, b, c, and d and I'm really interested in learning more. I'm a reciter at Fiserv. Let's talk." Joel: So, you're not leveraging Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat? Julia: We do, but some of it is in conjunction with our corporate account. Then, there's a lot of partnership with the global brand team, and brand... I don't want to say regulations, but standards that user generated video content wouldn't align with. Chad: That's the big question. I was listening earlier IBM talk about how they have all this content. It's like, how to you QC that shit? I mean, seriously. You want to be able to use this, so you have all this content coming in, but you have to somebody put actual eyes on it. Holland: One, if you're doing highly produced video, to answer your earlier question, I think where that come into play and why a lot of vendors in that space are successful is they really help you with the story arch. If you have a particular message that you are trying to get out, working with a producer who knows how to extract that from your people it's beautiful. Chad: You have a purpose for that video, it's not just a video it's [crosstalk 00:05:43] Holland: You have a purpose, you have a storyline that you're trying to hit. We used to work with this awesome vendor that used to talk about the spark line. The peaks and valleys and the message that you're trying to hit. In terms of that quality control piece, a lot of vendors are backing in to the back end. You send a message out to employee, they record video, and then you have someone who's physically screening that on the back end before you put information out. Chad: Can that not be, like crazy overwhelming? Holland: It can be pretty time consuming overwhelming. I think the crux of that is, only creating content with purpose. Don't just do a mass blast to your employee like "hey, we just bought AllTrue, and we're going to put an article on our intranet so that all eighty thousand people create a video." That's not smart use of that technology. It's about being really intentional with the stories that we want to tell, sending prompts to individuals, having them record them, and then screening that on the back end and only pushing the ones that are true, and hit the storyline that we're trying to hit live. Josh: I think that though is the point though. Right? There's this debate of highly produced video versus user generated video, and I actually don't think it matters, because user generated video can still suck. Everybody thinks that it's automatically authentic and it isn't always. If there's a good story and the person who's on the video has something to say, and you've thought through what the message is, then it's going to come across very well. If you're forcing somebody to read a script, it's going to come across scripted even if it's quick and dirty, authentic, user generated video. I don't think it's either or, I think there's a place for both, and it can be highly produced and very authentic, or it can be highly produced and feel like it [crosstalk 00:07:26] Joel: From where you sit distribution wise, where do you typically send customers with distribution of video? Where should the definitely be and where might they be wasting time? Josh: From a marketers prospective or from what would we advise our customers? Joel: From a marketers prospective. If I'm an employer and we have this great video, where should we put it? What's your answer? Josh: It's obviously multi-channel and that's kind of a cop-out answer. Holland: It depends on what the essence of the video is. If you have videos that drive, tap a funnel but maybe talk about brand promise, culture promise, and then you have videos that kind of come into play that more are like realistic job previews. So someone gets attracted to you brand with video A, then they come, they look at the job opportunities you have, you want to serve up another video related to more of the intricacies of that role, and then as you go deeper down the funnel, maybe that's when you introduce the hiring manager, and some of these more off-the-cuff videos. Joel: How involved is marketing, if at all, with the videos that you're making? Or any of the branding that you're doing? Holland: Very Holland: Yeah, I would say very. At Delta, our people at our product. What sets us apart in the consumer space is our level of service, so our marketing and our cons team does a really fantastic job of curating stories, and then producing content but bringing people like HR and talent into the fold so that we all make sure that we massage the storyline and we're hitting it from each angle of our perspective departments. It's not a one sided story. But then, content that we own, like Day in the Life, realistic job preview content, that's fully produced by HR and talent. Joel: Was that your experience as well, Julia? Julia: Pretty similar, but I would say I've been at companies that didn't have a strong global brand team and I've had to be really scrappy on my own, and kind of own it. Then, maybe talk to and reach out to people in marketing to get their feedback even though I was doing it off the side of my desk, which I'm sure, many of you here feel that way when it comes to recruitment marketing practices that you might not have the budget to do a sixty thousand dollar video and you need to be scrappy on your cellphone. There's products out there that can help you do it for a more reasonable cost, or you can do it on your own with a lot of research. Some of it's trail-and-error, and piloting in smaller places. Josh: I hear you guys talk a lot about this, and I agree with you. We've talked a lot about how employer brand and TH should leverage corporate brand more. But, there's always this assumption that corporate brand has this big pile of cash that they're sitting on. My wife works for General Motors, everything's outsourced. They work with agencies that handle everything, and you might have a marketer that owns agency relationships. They kind of feed and protect and act as a filter there, but they don't control much of the budget. The agency actually controls the budget, so employer brand isn't going to get much of the attention from the marketing agency managing that corporate brand. At least, it's going to be more difficult than if you have a strong corporate branding team or corporate branding team that owns the budget and owns the execution of everything. Again, it's not a clean, easy way to divide things. Chad: Nothing ever is in corporate America. It seems like you guys have direct lines into to marketing, do you have a regular cadence with conversations with marketing on staying on brand, purpose, all of those things. Do you find that is entirely different than most of your peers out there? Like they're disconnected. Or, do you feel like HR and TA, they're starting to come together with marketing more? Holland: I think we're seeing, and particularly consumer brands are really leading this, Chad: It's money Holland: ...it's money and a lot of consumer brands are using their people to differentiate their product. So, we're a commodity, you can fly Southwest, you can fly United, you can fly American, but you fly Delta because of the interiors of our cabin, because of our people, and so, marketing really leverages our people's stories as a means to attract people to our organization. What that requires is them to stay really in close alignment with TA and with HR to make sure that they're one, showcasing employees that are in good standing with the business, who are representative of the brand that we're putting out in the market, but two, that they're speaking to our values and our truths. They're not steering away too much from what we're training them in onboarding and our respective divisions. Joel: It's commercial time. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent, text based interviewing platform. Empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more.We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvasbot is at your side adding automation to your work flow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology, and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy, and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in twenty minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: It's showtime. Chad: I didn't hear you talk about actual your candidates, no question, are your customers. Holland: Oh one hundred percent. Chad: And if you treat them badly, then you're negatively impacting the bottom line. Is there a line to, to... big corporate? Holland: To marketing? Chad: Yeah Holland: So, there is now, and I'm that line. That line did not exist before so, you were giving me some shit earlier in the lobby, like "what is your job?" Chad: What do you do? Holland: So, if you applied for job at Delta fifteen months ago before I joined, you were going to what, more or less, looked like a spam site. Corporate marketing had no idea. They weren't paying attention They had their own... Chad: How do they not see this? The career site is the second to the homepage on the amount of traffic that a company gets. Their marketing, how do they not know this shit? They have analytics on the site. They have analytics on the site. Holland: They have analytics on the site but I think what happens quite a bit of the time is, Smashfly is a product for this, TNP has product for this, is the career site is built separate of the consumer brand site. Ours is built on our dot com site, it's just a simple splash page, we have plans to blow it out a little further, but if your career site is dispersate from your consumer site, a lot of times corporates not picking up those metrics. They're not getting into their Google dashboards or their Adobe dashboards, whatever analytics platform that they have. Chad: So, ar Fiserv that's not the case, really? Are your candidates your customers or not really? Julia: Not entirely, our customers are a lot of the banks and credit unions, [crosstalk 00:14:44] so we're more business to business. I have to kind of show the value in partnership with the global brand team around the career site. They actually put us, when we were just a little careers blip on the header or the footer, when you go to our corporate site now, we have a huge hero image around careers, which has been fantastic and if you can get your employer to put careers front and center, it is one of the most highly clicked links on the main dot com site. Then, we outsource the career site from there. Julia: We have regular cadence with them, but there still is some education both ways, because I'm very strong minded in my opinion around what the candidate experience should be and what the career site should be and I want us to do to really push the limits and be innovative, but then they want to protect the brand image. The disconnect is where the brand image is to our clients and what would a client think if they saw user generated video, and if it wasn't the same quality and polish of the content that we give to our banks and credit unions and business clients, and candidates don't want to see that heavily produced and polished because then they just think it's just corporate speak and someones just going over a script instead of what authentically Julia thinks of working at Fiserv. Chad: So, how do you message that to them, and say that just doesn't work for us? And, do they care? Julia: It is and ongoing dialogue. Chad: So they don't care? That's what I'm getting. Josh: So they don't want it in the front end of the career side? The reason I ask that is back to your question about how you use a video, I don't think that user generated video always has to be front and center on the career site. It can be used, I know Colin's talking about recruiter enablement tomorrow. There's a tool we use in sales and marketing called Vidyard and we can record personalized videos that will go anywhere publicly, but we can send them and say "hey, John nice to meet you. Can't wait to get on the demo call, really looking forward to it and here's what we're going to talk about." Follow up after the demo, "hey it was really great meeting you." That use case can be applied to recruiting. It's the exact same thing to where it's not publicly visible, it's not part of the brand, you're not exposing anything. You don't have to worry about the polish, but it still has utility. Julia: I had, kind of, the big slash but it on the career site approach, but now I'm pivoting a little bit and just haven't had those conversations yet, so I'm building out that plan to understand how could we use this a little differently than our initial use case and still get a lot of value out of it. It is in other creative way, so I'm still figuring that out. Joel: We heard a lot earlier about shiny object syndrome. We hear a lot about AI automation programmatic video, social media, etcetera. What are the shiny objects that you guys are testing do you think have promise? We might be talking about things five years from now. Chad: Tik-Tok. Holland: So, not necessarily testing it, we use Hirevue, they're pretty embedded in our process. We get a ton of volume. We're a volume shop, and so we really need partners who help us do down selection. We have an IO psychologist and a PhD who helps with assessment strategy and selection strategy, which really refines our pipeline, and Hirevues been a really integral part of that story. We've actually seen more inclusive pipelines since we've implemented their AI solution, which has been fantastic. Chad: Can you write that up for the state of Illinois? Holland: I know, I listened to your show the other day. I think that's one that we're closely monitoring. Chad: Who knows about the new AI regulations? Sentiments? Facial recognitions? I told you all this was a podcast, you need to listen to the show. Holland: I have a bigger beef with the government on that front. The fact that we have to push jobs in the first place really... Chad: Being a federal contractor Holland: Being a federal contractor, but it really impacts the ability to do some of this next level marketing. When you post a job you have an apply cycle coming in, which really requires us to get more refined with assessments and selections versus, I prefer someone to go to a landing page and opt-in so I can more manage a pipeline, but we just don't live in that world. Chad: Right, I mean that's the thing is that with all of this new technology, you know it scares the shit out of obviously not just the government but the people, so therefore, we start to see these regulations pop up out of no where and if you haven't checked it our, all you should have to do is Google "state of Illinois interviewing AI," or listen to the podcast. Chad: These are the things GDPR, not to mention next year 2020, California's coming out with their own GDPR so I mean, these are things that are going to happen and these questions that you have to dig down deep, I'm sure Josh hears this a lot. Are you dealing with this at all Julia? Holland: Yeah. Talking about tools, and I'll it back to the GDPR and the clients.[crosstalk 00:20:08] Josh: I mean there's nothing sexier than GDPR compliance. Julia: I've had to deal with GDPR and we use Hiring Solved, so talent rediscovery is and are we've been involved in and that's been evolving. There is several players that can help. Joel: Explain what that means. Julia: Talent rediscovery, so you're spending thousands or hundreds of thousands, or millions or dollars investing in attracting talent to join your talent communities and your ATS. I recruited for a number of years and as a recruiter, it was very hard to see all the candidates that are in the ATS, so you can't fish in your own pond. Being able to view that nice talent pool of people that have already clicked apply, know your brand, were excited about your brand at some point, and if you have a good positive candidate experience may be excited to reapply or re-engage. So, how do you pull all of those people out of your ATS or CRN and get them reengaged in your brand and your opportunities and continue that dialogue. Joel: Let me underscore, people you have already paid for. You've probably paid for them six time over by the way. Julia: So, with GDPR we set up processes within our ATS so that we can remove people from the process after certain time periods, and that also has downstream implications into, so a report gets run and we review it and then say "okay, delete these records." But, then we have downstream into Smash Fly around who we have to delete in all those European countries, and then also, I have to then look into Hiring Solved, and that's all manual on myself or a colleague. There's definitely a lot of work to be done around that. Julia: When you think of AI or talent rediscovery, machine learning, I wish I had that little sparkly disco ball that could tell what the future is around the best tools. Joel: Josh sees, you see all these tools, so what are you ghoulish on? Chad: Really quick those, you guys have a partnership with Hiring Solved now, what are you seeing? Are you seeing a lot of what Julia's talking about? They understand we have an asset that we have allowed, just to atrophy, spent hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of dollars in our candidate database, are companies starting to see that and realize that we need to go back into this database and try to harvest it? Josh: Yeah, and I think it's a lot of times it's easy to blame practitioners and be like, "gosh this is so obvious, why haven't you done this?" And in reality... Chad: It's not? No seriously is it not that obvious? Josh: Well it is obvious, but the technology limits that. So, if you've ever searched in an ATS, stab your eyes out. It's horrible. To a certain extent, I don't blame recruiters or users of the ATS for not wanting to do that. It requires a lot of time to find, I think our head of sales has separated our wheat from the shaft, which I don't know if that's a great analogy. To find those top tier people that you want to follow up with, an ATS is not a great tool for that. This whole category of technology that was born out of that need is absolutely relevant. Josh: I think this is where, to me, this whole debate of AI is kind of, you just talk in circles. It's more about does it solve a problem that exists, and if it does than it's valuable. I know it's helped you guys quite a bit. There are a lot of tools out there that do the same thing. I think it's one of those problems that is an obvious problem, there are some companies that are very clueless about it and are happy to keep spending money on job boards, and keep paying to re attract people but, I do think it's a limitation of the technology that's been around. It was just never designed for that. Holland: I think it's a limitation of the technology but it's also and what other pieces of tech you've enabled. If you are not hovering good lead qualification going into your ATS, if you're not building in basic qualifiers or pre-qualifier questions that help refine that pipeline, you're just going to be reengaging or resurfacing up garbage anyway. So, do you really wan tot engage something, granted you've paid for those individuals getting into your pipeline. Chad: Yeah, so garbage from your standpoint is actually customers. That's what you have to look at. Holland: I rescind the comment of garbage. What I'm saying is that we need to be a little more stringent on the front end. We're at a marketing conference, if you're really thinking about being a marketer, when was last time you went and shopped technology? I went and I shopped an ATS last year, I filled out a white paper, I learned more about that tech. They sent me a lead qualification form, I filled out that form, I told them about when I was looking to buy parallel to when I'm looking to leave my job. What attributes do I have as a buyer? What attributes do you have as a candidate? And that qualified me, and what I from them was a rejection. We didn't fit their buyer set, but we need to be more stringent on our side as marketers to think that way. To qualify leads that are coming into our database so that we don't have disappointed customers to candidates. Josh: There's, I think a lot of times, candidates, even if they sometimes, are aware that they're not qualified, and they just want very clear communication. Outside of the spammers. There are spammers too that will just like, often called the serial appliers, that will just apply to jobs. I think Tom had a slide on that earlier. Joel: It's commercial time. JobAdX: Finding the right fit is important when you're deciding on shoes for a long day at the trade show, when you're picking the right podcast for your commute, and most importantly, when you're looking for the right candidate. 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Julia: It's like the dating apps, and you're saying the jobs really don't like and you're like "ugh," you're right away saying no to that, but everything else you're saying yes to, and then the reciters have to weed through this huge in flux of people. Josh: To your point there, the quote unquote garbage, it's not that, right? It's not that you mean that, it's just that they're not a good fit, but there's a way to disposition those people elegantly, and I think that's one of the biggest problems. Joel: Speaking of influxes of huge amounts of candidates, listeners of the show will know that chat bots are getting a ton of money currently. Anybody using those, testing those, general opinion around chat bots, and [crosstalk 00:28:08] Josh: Plug for Emerson. Joel: No sales pitch up here. Holland: I'm going to save my good chat bot story for tomorrow but we're using chat pods in another instance. We're actually using a chat bot out of an accelerator that Delta sponsors, so keeping in the family, and really investing back into these tech communities that we believe in. What we're found is that, we don't have a formal employer referral process, it is on our roadmap. We do get referrals, but in terms of recognition or rewards, that's just not built in right now. Holland: What we also have a lot of is, "I met this person at this dinner," or "my friend's son looking for an opportunity. He just graduated from X University." We're getting all these messages kicked to our recruiters, and what it was creating for them was extra administrative work to screen these individuals and learn more about them. So, we actually stood up a chat bot service, we call is "referrals concierge," where we can reply, "thank you so much, please have them go here if they've not sat in on our training." Where people can go, they can type in the candidate's information, they can type in how they met them, why they think they would be good for Delta. And then, that's actually going to a coordinator to screen and even further qualify, and only send those that are a fit and ready to engage the recruiter, over to our recruiter. Julia: I've been watching it for a while, but I've not dipped my toe in. I think that if you're in a high volume area, like the first time I saw a Paragon or Emerson, I was like "Oh my God." At my last job, we did a lot of high volume I was like, "this could have been perfect" because these candidates could text in a couple of things, go right into ATS, and then we can get them into our process, or into a serum and then have a work flow for a talent network forum. I thought, that's perfect. They've evolved with interview scheduling and stuff like that, but for highly technical professional roles, I get annoyed at Alexa and Siri all of the time. And look how good they are, right? Although they have a lot more of information to go through. I see the value in interview scheduling. If they do it well, that could be something, at least for basic interviews, but the complexities of our business, I don't think it's there yet. Joel: The SVP doesn't want to talk to a chat bot one on one. Josh: Here's a use case though. So, I was at a conference, it was a talent board workshop I think. I think it was Andy, was her first name but she worked at a company called ProCore. ProCore's a technology company. I was talking to an analyst that worked at United that just built their own stuff. So they built their own chat bot but their use case was around this concierge service for booking travel for interviews. They had a landing page for candidates, so it had a map to where they need to park, and the office they were going to, some answers to some frequently asked questions, and then this chat bot that was on there where they could book travel through the chat bots. They didn't have to go to a travel booking site, they would just say "hey, I'm traveling on Tuesday." Okay, well here are four flights that are within the budget for you, timeframe, suggest that you pick one, went ahead and booked a flight for you. All in the back end for the candidate. Josh: So, those little touches I think for an SVP or something like that, that's super elegant. To where it feels like you have your personal assistant, and it's adding value, versus certain use cases where you try to fit it in there, and it just doesn't work, and it actually creates a worse experience in some cases. So, I think sometimes understanding how you want to use the technology and what you'rr actually solving for, versus just being like "oh my God, chat bot, let's just do it." And then it's like [crosstalk 00:31:47] Chad: It's the bright and shiny one. That's totally the bright and shiny case. You're not focused on the problem, you're not focused on trying to get process. Most of this technology we're talking about should be able to take out some tasks. Some of the mundane tasks that recruiters have, or even hiring managers have in some cases. If you're not trying to solve for something, then you're just fucking wasting time, right? Julia: When I first got to Fiserv video interviewing, everyone's "oh, candidate experience, video interviewing," and they wanted to apply it to our Java developers, like our technology fields, and I was like, "A. What problem are you trying to solve? Just candidate experience. And then, I was like, "do you really think a software developers going to go through this video interview before they've even spoken to someone." So, we never went down that path. I feel it has a good place in a lot of specific role, but again, you need to know what problem you're trying to solve and what results you want to get from them. Joel: But like messaging, text recruiting, things like that, you guys still utilizing those? Josh: I was just going to say, for hiring too, my wife at General Motors uses CodeView, so do you know their product? I don't know if you guys have used it, but she said the developers actually enjoy using because they feel like they've gotten a fair shot, to a certain degree. Holland: Do you guys know what that is? Joel: It's for when you're coding a lot of [crosstalk 00:33:12] Holland: We demoed it, it's on our roadmap. Same response. Even our hiring managers were big fans. It eliminates the need for the candidate to come down. Joel: And talk. I'm curious, we talk a lot on the show about, sort of the platform wars, and when we talked IBM, like all the shiny things and there's so much out there. There seems to be a battle between big guys like LinkedIn, Microsoft, Google, Facebook to some degree. We heard recently that sales force is going to sort of get into the work force. Slack went public today. ISIMS and Jobvite are buying everyone they can to create one platform system. Are you guys a buyers of the one platform, or do you think that's a dead end strategy? Josh: I'm not answering that. Julia: We did a big RFP last year, it had been several years since we looked at our tech stack. We had put some add-ons on and we did an RFP last year, and after coming through it, I decided to stay the course, so we've got Smashfly as job distribution, CRM recruitment marketing and e-mail marketing. We've got TMP as the front end of our career site. We've got add-ons like HiringSolved and Textio, and we use LinkedIn Elevate for social advocacy. There's no one who does all of that, or at least does all of it well. Some people say they can do a lot of it, but then when you look under the covers there's big things that are missing that are critical components to what we need to be successful. Julia: The challenge sometimes is around data, and reporting and seeing the full picture, apples to apples or oranges to pears, and so that's where I struggle with that approach, but it for the most part works. Although recruiters have a little bit of fatigue sometimes, so we could have gone with a different social advocacy tool, but we chose Elevate because people know LinkedIn. But, how many different systems do they need to know and learn and log into? So, that is one of the bad sides of doing that approach. Chad: That's a big question, is how many platforms are they logging into? Because, that's not efficient at all, right? How many browsers do they have open? Having to go from one page to the next. If that's not something that you can integrate, is that really worth your time? Holland: I would say no. I think that we in the marketing space, we're in an interesting position in our field. We do a little bit of brand, a lot of marketing, and then we're tech as well. We're rolling up our sleeves, we're sometimes programming on our own, we're building and I think we talk a lot about the relationships that we need to foster with marketing and communications, but for me, my best friend right now is my HR TS teams and making sure that we have those integrations so that our point solutions talk to each other, and then making sure we have single sign-on enabled, and share dashboards, so that if you are using point solutions you can access them all through a single interface. So, I think you can get around some of what you're talking about, but you have to... Chad: That's internal development though. Holland: It's totally internal development. Chad: How many people have that many internal resources for that? Two, I see. Yeah. Two. I mean that shit just doesn't exist. You're in the utopia of all this. They're all looking at you going... Holland: I think there's two sides to the coin of that. I'm not in a position to use a tool like it's a greenhouse for example. Where it's a simple ATS, it's a simple serum, it's all integrated, you could build landing pages. I think it was the woman at IBM who said that she looks at these small companies and they're able to rewrite every job description and that she doesn't have that luxury. I would love to walk in someones shoes where I could use a single, all encompassing solution that allows me to that and not to have to have these deep relationships with IT, so I think there's trade-offs on both sides of the house. Chad: But you've had to do that with Textio, and you're on the journey right now in actually rewriting all of those for... so talk about that a little bit. Julia: It's been an evolution in the very beginning of Textus. If you don't know Textio, it's a natural language processing tool where you can take your horrible job description and put it into their tool and they analyze it against millions of other job descriptions out there, and they give a score of zero to one hundred, and tell you how good or bad your job is. Then, they give you suggestions on how you can make it better, and it's fabulous. Julia: The challenge is, some people feel comfortable writing and others say, "I'm a horrible writer," and recruiters are trying to fill the req, and when you have a really poorly written job description, and you put it in and you have to spend, next Textio will tell you ten minutes, but when you're spending thirty to forty-five minutes of your time rewriting your job description to make it engaging as a job posting, and attractive to candidates, it's frustrating, because you want to just get in and get out. Julia: Now, what I will say to some of the recruiters is if you're spending, we have a team of people that feel comfortable that can help, so we put that together, but we have seen the evolution. We now have hundreds of jobs descriptions, job posts that are already in there, so the largest hurdles and pain are a little bit behind us. I can go in, if I'm a recruiter working on a software developer role and see probably fifteen other jobs that are scoring well, and go and pull that to start from, so it's almost like a job library now. But, what they also added was recruiting e-mails, so that first e-mail as a recruiter that you send to someone to try to get them interested and get their attention, they now are giving you score son that. We've seen from our recruiting and sourcing team that they've gotten higher response rates after using Textio than they did using before, and they're integrated now with Outlook and with LinkedIn, so that's where you're going to be creating those first e-mails. Julia: We analyzed our data from the year before we used Textio to the first year in, and then they've taken a lot of key learnings and put them back in too, so your candidates respond better when you use this kind of language, and this kind of language responds, men appreciate these wordings, women appreciate these words and phrases. Chad: If you're looking for more gender specific. Joel: Women like bullet points, something like that. Julia: It's really helped us remove some gender bias, and it helps us know what words and language speed up the process, and what words and language slows down the process. [crosstalk 00:40:06] The word "collaborate," which I would think we're a really collaborative environment, that word slows down the process by three days. Julia: Who knew? Chad: That's interesting. Joel: Speaking of job postings, there's been a lot of disruption in that space in the last couple years. So, Google for Jobs launched a couple years ago, Indeed, of course, has decided not to participate in Google for Jobs. We have Programmatic rising in popularity. Where do you guys sit on the job posting spectrum and what do you see in the future? Josh: Like Google as becoming a search engine destination for people to start their search? Joel: So, I want to post a job, what recommendation would you give to somebody to get, like is Programmatic the best solution? Is Indeed only okay for most companies? Chad: I feel like we're going to get a multi-channel answer. Joel: Probably. [crosstalk 00:41:07] Josh: No, I think it's, you guys can probably speak, but I think it depends on what you're hiring for. Holland: Yeah, it depends on what you're hiring for, and I said in a Tweet the other day that I know you were like, "oh we'll talk about it." Programmatic is becoming Post and Pray 2.0. Joel: Explain that. [crosstalk 00:41:28] Holland: It got some traction, but I think Programmatic is a fantastic solution. So, historically people have been married to these big contracts. Back in the day you were married to Monster and CareerBuilder, as Indeed came on board you got away form the contract model, but you were an insertion orders and you kind of got hooked on the value that they were bringing to the top of your funnel, and now we're seeing this paradigm shift where Programmatic is coming in and it's disrupting all of that, in tandem to Google, so it allows you to have freedom and flexibility. Over time, Programmatic vendors, ones that have correctly learned what performs for you based on the different profiles you're sending out. It also let's you a b test different... Chad: So why is it Post and Pray? It sounds great. Holland: So, what I'm saying is, what I'm seeing happen though is in a lot of these conversations around Programmatic is you invest in Programmatic, you're able to reduce costs by this, you're able to cut your contract spend by this, but they're not talking about the full circle. Yes, you're able to get more refined in terms of bringing people to your brand, but you shouldn't preach that to your leadership in that way. You should position taking those dollars and using them on storytelling, or re engagement, or rediscovery technology, so what I'm saying is that people are only hanging their hat on Programmatic because it's delivering results, but it's only one piece of the earned, owned, paid puzzle. Holland: We started doing Programmatic and moved away from, a lot of the... we're still posting jobs on LinkedIn, but Glassdoor, Indeed, Monster sponsor, like all that kind of stuff. We've moved towards Programmatic and have a bucket, and we meet with the vendor pretty regularly to review and make sure that it's... Joel: Do either of you have job board contracts currently? No? Holland: I have a LinkedIn contract. Holland: Yeah, how do you want to frame LinkedIn? Josh: We have like a minute and forty-five because this things yelling at us, but I want to ask question just to wrap up but like, what happens when Google turns on, within the Google for Jobs when you can advertise there, how does that blow up everything? And what happens when job seeker behavior changes to where like, Indeed wants to be a destination, and they're spending a ton of branding and marketing dollars on being a destination, but I don't know that you're going to change user behavior [crosstalk 00:44:00] Joel: By the way, Google just launched tracking for your jobs on Google for Jobs, so it's a hop, skip, and a jump between that and "Okay, give us your credit card and boost these certain jobs, for a lot more views." Holland: And a lot of the Programmatic success is still on Indeed, it's still in Glassdoor, because of what you just described. They're pumping lots of dollars into the market place to tell candidates to look on their site, and we should reap the reward of that still. Programmatic is still capitalizing on that. You shared outcast report, their data is showing it, it's still Indeed and Glassdoor. So, we're not moving away in full, I just think we're seeing this evolution. Chad: Do you feel like it's sustainable though? Because, how much of Indeed's traffic was on the Google side of the house? Joel: Ten years ago, you could have replaced that with Monster and CareerBuilder, right? So, ten years from now, will it still be Indeed and Glassdoor? Chad: Five, I'd say five. [crosstalk 00:44:56] Joel: So, I don't think that it's any accident that Indeed is getting into a lot of different things to put certain bets on the platform for gig workers and staffing and a lot of other things, because they're aware of that. Chad: I think we just ended right on time. Joel: You got a broom man? Sackett: I got one last question. Joel: Okay. Sackett: How fast can you get your asses off the stage? Joel: Depends on how long it takes me to get that beer. Sackett: Chad and Cheese, Holland, Julia, JZ, give them a hand, awesome sauce. Chad: Thank you guys. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors, because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Smashfly #ATS #CRM #Marketing #jobs #EmployerBrand #EmploymentBrand #Brand

It's a damned free-for-all! Matt Alder comes to a CENSORSHIP FREE environment in this crossover edition of Chad & Cheese and The Recruitment Future Podcast. If the language is too much for you just head your whimpy ass over to Matt's bleeped out version at RFpodcast.com. Everyone else can enjoy the ADULT VERSION all due to our friends over at Uncommon.co. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level.​ Chad: Dude, we're always talking about cool new tech, but it's hard for hiring companies to change. I mean adoption's a bitch. New Tech can get them to qualified candidates so much faster. Joel: I don't know man. But recruiters already have their routine in place and nobody wants to jump into another platform, especially when it's expensive and also requires hours, maybe days of training. Chad: Exactly, but that's where Uncommon's new service comes into play Uncommon pairs expert recruiters with in-house kick-ass technology. Joel: All right, interesting. Interesting. It sounds like Uncommon understands the problem of change... Chad: That's why they hand select veteran recruiters, train them on this kick-ass technology that has access to over 100 million active profiles. Joel: Yeah, but I bet they're expensive and I bet it requires some kind of annual commitment or contract, right? Chad: No Man, Uncommon is not an agency. They don't require a contract, any contingencies, all they do, they charge one flat fee per project, saving, I don't know, anywhere from 50 to 80% on each hire versus the average agency cut. Joel: Oh, snap! Companies could save big stacks of paper, especially if they're rapidly scaling and need hires today. Chad: Yep, and all you have to do is reach out to Tag and the Uncommon crew at uncommon.co, that's uncommon.co. Joel: Change doesn't have to be a pain, if you're using Uncommon. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry. Right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Well, we should record already. Jesus. Matt: Yeah, let's just get started. Come on. Joel: I'm so confused right now. Matt: I'm sitting, who's show am I on? Who's show is this? Chad: This is our collective show, so for everybody that's out there, so we finally got a chance to meet Matt in Portugal and I had this crazy idea of, hey, let's just sit down and do a crossover podcast where we're going to be on Matt's Pod. He's going to be on our pod and we're going to just have a fucking free for all. So how's that sound? Joel: All your ideas are crazy by the way. You don't have to like put crazy idea. Just say idea and people know it's crazy. Chad: That's right, redundant is what you're saying. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. So nevermind the bullocks, we have Britain's, Edinburg's, Matt Alder on. I guess because he's pushing this it out as his show and we're pushing it out as our show. We should probably all do quick introductions because his audience doesn't know us possibly, and our audience doesn't know him possibly. So should we get that out of the way? Chad: Yeah. Let's let Matt go first. Matt: Yeah, let's do it. So I'm Matt Alder and I run the Recruiting Future Podcast, which some of you will be listening to you. Thank you. Chad: You're welcome. Matt: Which some of you will be listening to right now in this kind of weird crossover thing that we're doing. The show has been going for years and every week, well, most weeks I interview thought leaders and practitioners, about the changing nature of talent acquisition and the future of recruiting. Joel: So you're primarily practitioners? Matt: I'm primarily practitioners. Yeah, absolutely. So tell us about your show, for my audience. Joel: We are, I guess a weekly roundup of news from the industry. Primarily what vendors are doing, who's buying whom and who's doing what and how shitty Monster commercials are and how Indeed's gone down the tubes. That's kind of the stuff that we talk about. We have a show called Firing Squad that is sort of like Shark Tank for startups. Usually at least two times a month we do a deep dive into something like automation, AI, chat bots, whatever sort of is interesting and in the now. And then we sorta do a bunch of side shit. I don't know. What else would you add, Chad? Matt: Yeah, the Shred, I mean [crosstalk 00:04:24] Our focus is to be able to help all those individuals that are out there, whether they're talent acquisition or they're vendors, to better understand what the hell is going on in the landscape. There's so much noise out there right now. We'll do the research, we'll put it out, obviously with our fucked up opinion, but you get a lot of content about a lot of shit that's happening in our industry and people seem to dig it. Feffer: Such an asshole. Joel: Exactly. Matt: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what? I've just realized I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to bleep the swearing out. Joel: Oh fuck that. Matt: Do you know what? You know the ridiculous reason why? Apple. So, basically, there are a number of countries that if you have a podcast with swearing in, Apple will not distribute your Podcast to. Chad: Even if you tag it as explicit? Matt: Even if you mark it as explicit. Chad: Oh well, fuck those countries. Matt: Yeah, absolutely. But I have an audience in those countries so I'm going to find some kind of bleeping device. So apologies to the listeners of my show... Joel: What about albums that have explicit lyrics? Matt: I don't know. I don't know. I just know the podcasting bit. Joel: That's bullshit, Matt. Matt: Oh, it's not me. It's not my fault. It's not me. Blame Apple. Joel: That stifles your creativity. Matt: Yeah, it does. Joel: I mean you can't say shite or bullocks or... Matt: Now he's just going to turn this into a swearing episode. Chad: Once you get Joel going down one of these rabbit holes, it's fucking hard and get him out. Chad: In talking with, obviously talent acquisition professionals, staffing professionals, what have you...What are you seeing, today, as one of their biggest issues that you're trying to help them through or they're listening to your podcast to be able to try to get some hints and/or shortcuts through? Matt: Interesting question because I think the answer to it comes back to something that you guys just said. I think the biggest challenge I'm finding lots of talent acquisition professionals have, is the sheer amount of noise in the marketplace. So people are really struggling to get their head round the technology that's available and how it might actually help solve their problems and add some value to them. There's this great sense that people are missing out on some a silver bullet technology and just a lot of confusion about what's out there and how it could work and... Joel: And how are they dealing with learning about the new stuff? Are they putting their head in the sand? Are they actively trying to figure it all out? Matt: I think what I find is that a lot of the people who are really getting on top of this are talking to their peers about it. So going to events, finding out who's using what and how it's working for them. And really that's kind of one of the objectives of my podcast is to get people on to talk about how they are sort of facing their talent acquisition challenges, the methods they're using, the technology they're using. You know, what's working, what's not working and what's never gonna work. Joel: I have this theory that like all the emails that go out, the content marketing, like the typical sort of interruption marketing is all wasted dollars in many aspects. Because a lot of this is just social media. "Hey, who do you guys use as an ATS?" Like, "Hey, who does everybody use for their Chatbot?" Are you saying that that's primarily how people make buying decisions today? Matt: I think it's part of it. I do have sometimes a bit of an issue with those sort of social media requests. Because I think that if you're just asking randomly on Facebook, "Hey, what's a good ATS?" I think it's difficult to get a good answer because people will not appreciate your unique challenges or your objectives or the type of company you are. So I think that's kind of, that's what end of it. But I do think that the events, the peer to peer conversations, the networking that goes on, it's driving a lot of this stuff because I think that a lot of the marketing that comes out to this space, it's really about the vendor's own objectives. So it's like they've kind of got together and say, "Hey, what problems do we solve? These are great problems. We'll solve them." And a lot of the time, I don't think they actually talk to their potential customers or think about what issues they actually have. So I think sometimes technology will solve a problem very effectively, but that problem might be number 50 on the list of problems that someone working in talent acquisition actually has. So I think that's kind of my take on the market and that's what I'm trying to do with my Podcast. Chad: Well, and don't you find that most of these companies really don't truly understand what their problems are? They're hearing so much noise out there and then Jenny from across the street said her ATS was the best... Joel: Jenny form the block. Chad: I feel like, the thing that companies need to really focus on today is their process. They have like a 1990s process methodology that they try to jam into their technology which just doesn't work. And then they try to layer more technology on it, before they really truly find out what their process should be and will that process actually alleviate some of those problems and then prioritization of those problems. And then at that point, after you've gone through all of that, then start talking about technology, but not until then. Matt: Absolutely. I couldn't, I couldn't agree with that more. I think some of the best guests I've had on my show, the people who've gone all the way back to understanding what their objectives are and then building from there it's like, "Well, what actually are our problems? Do these problems actually properly aligned to where our business is going? Are they the right problems to be solving?" And then, "How do we do that? What's the best way to solve it?" And then technology is the kind of the final piece of that puzzle basically. Joel: Do you find it's hard to get corporate folks to open up to you? Matt: Ah, good question. I'm kind of working off a bit of a fake sample, I think, because I was going to say, "No, I have some great guests and they always sort of talk about what they're doing." But, I think my guests are a subset of the whole population, of that kind of corporate population, if you like. Because I think there are people who are open and really happy about talking about what they're doing, they've got a story to share, they've done something good. So, the guests that I have on are no problem at all. They're very open to share and share their learnings. Whether that's the same for everyone who kind of works in talent acquisition, probably not. Joel: So we know you're British and you're polite, but what do you got for us? Any questions? Matt: Yeah, so I've got a few questions. So you claim to be HR's most dangerous podcast... Joel: Claim? Matt: And I was talking to someone who isn't in HR or recruiting about your show actually the other day. And they asked me why was it so dangerous? So you know why are you so dangerous? Joel: Well, I think that the fact that you're bleeping out the first 30 seconds of the show helps us establish that. Matt: Yup, very true. I have something to add to that, if anyone listening to my show wants to hear what we were really saying, if I do managed to bleep it out then, they should listen to this show on your show. Chad: Just go to chadcheese.com and then you'll get the straight shot on that one. Matt: Yeah and likewise, if anyone who listens to your show and doesn't like swearing, then come and listen to my show. Yeah, I never fucking swear on my show, so it's absolutely fine. Joel: If you like your podcasts with some crumpets and tea, listen to Matt's show. No, I think, my answer is, Chad and I are at a point in our careers, we kind of work for ourselves, we don't have really any corporate interests, we can be blunt, both of our personalities are sort of no nonsense. I think a lot of the podcasts out there, someone's got an association, they've got to think about, someone's got an employer, they have to think about... There's always something that sort of gets in the way of honest, open, sort of brutal honesty and talk and I think we're able to cut through that just because of our situations. Chad: And it's easy to be, HR's most dangerous podcast because nothing in HR is fucking dangerous in the first place. So just ratcheting it up, just a couple of levels and putting some snark in it, it makes us dangerous. So it's pretty simple to be dangerous in HR. Matt: Well, that's a really good point. Absolutely. Do you get any complaints? Joel: Millennials hate us, sometimes. Chad: Millennials love us. Shut the fuck up. The advice to anybody who is complaining is: don't fucking listen. I mean, that's what it comes down to, it's your choice to either plug in and listen to us or not. This isn't Russia. We're not doing state sponsored fucking podcasts or anything like that. Just don't listen. Joel: And we're okay with criticism, just bring facts, bring what you got. The social media grenades that, they don't want to come on the show or they don't want to back up, whatever it is. Like I'll give you an example. We had somebody make the claim that we only have advertisers because they feel threatened that we're gonna like F bomb them to hell if they don't give us money for the show. And that's just simply ridiculous. We don't threaten anybody to give us money for sponsoring the show. All of our sponsors love us. So to make a claim like that is either you better come on the show and defend your position or on social media, you better come with some facts that backs up that statement because that's a big claim to make if you don't have any facts to back it up. Chad: And we're going to come straight at you on the podcast, to tell you how it is and ask for you to come on the show to voice your opinion so we can land baste your ass there. Matt: And I think that's the great thing about podcasting is, there's no keyboard warriors here, everyone is having to back up their opinion and talk about it, justify it and not hide behind a keyboard. Matt: Another question for you. So, my podcast is about the future of recruiting. What's the future of recruiting? Chad: So, from our standpoint... Joel: Unemployment lines... for recruiters... Chad: From our standpoint, we talk a lot about technology and that's what we feel the future of recruiting is. It's not total robots, technology, so on and so forth. But, especially now as we talk about process and problems, there are many pieces of technology that could get rid of the mundane bullshit, problematic tasks that we face today. And I feel like the switch of just having people powered recruiting, will have more of a automatic, automated, enabled people recruiting, where candidates don't go into the black hole anymore. That's the problem when you have only people doing this shit, when you have automation support humans, then we can get into more of a humanistic type of recruiting culture. But we haven't been there for years. So I think from our standpoint, we talk about recruiting so much on the technology side because that's where we see the future of it going. Chad: It's like Tengai, right? And Jacob, on Facebook, was giving us so much shit because this Tengai robot is an interviewing robot and it's not human and Blah Blah Blah, and it's like, "Dude, look, you've got to realize these guys are pushing the next frontier of what we're doing." Candidates are already having a shitty experience as it is right now. They're having biased experience right now. Whatever we can do to try to push that boundary, to see if we can do better. That's not the problem, that's the fucking answer. It might not work, but guess what? Unless we try, we'll never know. And those are the things that we like to push on our show. Joel: I think that point of, everyone's sort of confused with the noise out there, really underscores what the future recruiter needs to look like. They have to have a really good, broad or basic understanding of the technology that's going on and being developed and what's coming down the pike because if they don't keep up, they're going to be eliminated. The old days of like, "Hey, I'm a tool in the tool chest and I can live like that." Are, I think, going away and you have to have a very broad toolkit to know everything that's going on and know what a Chatbot is, know what AI is, know what these vendors are, and know what messaging is and the different platforms for that and how to use it and what's advertising. And now there's podcasts, there's going to be video down the pike and how do we best use that stuff. And there's Snapchat and there's Instagram, and there's TickTok and you have to be really smart and keep up with this shit ,if you're going to be successful. The ones that don't are going to be left behind. I think that the line between what's marketing and recruiting is really blurring more and more each day. And for the recruiters that aren't marketers, or think of themselves in that way, are going to be left behind. Chad: So back to your question, what do you feel the future of recruitment is? And I mean you being, more across the pond on the UK side of the house, it's much different than over here in the US, how do you feel that differs from our vantage point? Matt: I would say it's very similar actually. I think that from a big picture perspective, we are pretty much aligned. There are lots of differences between recruiting in North America, recruiting in Europe or recruiting else around the world. But I think the overall direction is very much the same. I kind of already agree with what you just said and I think the key to this is actually critical thinking because I think, understanding what's going on, being able to spot what's a useful tool from what's just a load of hype. But at the same time I think it's having this real sense of being open minded. Matt: And I think Tengai is a really interesting example of that, because, like you, I had Tengai on the podcast because we were all sort of in Portugal and recording. And I kind of got similar feedback and I think when you actually sort of sit down and analyze that, the robot is only a small part of that story. There's a whole sort of bigger story about trying to solve the problem of bias. Also, that is a very, very early stage product, there's no uses data. There's nothing but conjecture and I think until something gets out onto the field and people actually come back and say, "I hate this." I think it's just too early. Joel: Were you surprised at the divisiveness of the opinion and to quote your great statesman William Shakespeare, "Doth thou protest too much?" I think it's very telling about a product when so many recruiters hate it. Matt: Yeah. I mean, I don't even think I was surprised because I've seen that around, almost every time there's some kind of leap forward in recruiting, whether it was the internet to start with or with social media or than robots or whatever it is, there's always this kind of massive emotional reaction. I think where it just gets confusing, is that there also a number of products that have come out that have proved to be useless or before their time or not delivering the hype they promised and it just all gets kind of mixed up together. Matt: But, I think that if you take a step back and look at this and say, you know what, as it stands at the moment, no one will argue with you, when you say, you know what? Talent acquisition is not as efficient as it could be, it has these elements of bias, the candidates are being given a really bad experience, and there seems to be no sort of quick fix or easy way of doing that, whatever people say. Then you'd know that the industry is going to change and things are going to come along and move that forward and I just think it's important to kind of have an open mind and look at things and say, "Well, this could be it or it might not be, but let's at least see what happens." Matt: And on Chatbots, there was a huge kind of backlash, certainly in the UK, when Chatbots first appeared. You know, Candidates wouldn't like them and all this sort of stuff. And actually, a lot of the research that I've seen and a couple of the companies that I've spoken you are using them, have come back and said, "Oh actually, they've been successful and the candidates did like them." So, that's kind of wrong to a certain extent. But at the same time, and this is where I think is all about critical thinking, that doesn't mean every candidate is going to like every iteration of every Chatbot. There will be companies who use them appallingly and candidates will hate them. So it comes back to that, work out what your problems are and the way to solve them and use technology to help you, don't use technologies just for the sake of it or don't use it just so you can say, "Hey, that technology was rubbish and I was right all along." Joel: Remember when QR codes we're going to rule the world? Matt: Ah, yeah, absolutely. There was a brilliant advert. A recruitment company in London put a QR code on a poster on the London Underground. And the whole point was you scan this QR code to go onto a website and this is like years before there was any internet access or any kind of coverage on the London Underground. And it was just astonishing example of using technology because someone told us it was cool without actually thinking about any of the user experience or anything that could sort of happen around that. Chad: We have to think very keenly about adoption and how these individuals are going to adopt. I mean scalability, all that other fun stuff. Just like podcasts. When Joel and I did our first podcast, like in 2008 or something like that, the only way you could listen is on your PC, on your desk. But anyway, the adoption rate was going to be very low and it was just, we were just having a fun time. It wasn't till like 10 years later, like in 2017, where yes, Smartphones changed at all and it was all about the ability to adopt. Those are the things that we need to look at from a technology standpoint. And that being said, looking at the future of recruiting, what is your favorite type of technology right now that you think will take us into that, that next segment of the future of recruiting? Matt: Oh, I was going to ask you that question. Right, well it's a good question because I thought of the same question. Matt: My favorite type of technology? I think I like technology that actually solves a problem. So I suppose there's two answers to this. I think some of the kind of new breed ATS solutions, that are coming onto the market that are actually built with talent acquisition in mind, not built to just kind of automate a recruitment process, but built with candidates and built with a recruiters in mind. I think there's some great stuff there. But sometimes I like the really sort of simple things that make a difference. Matt: I've sort of said this a few times, but my favorite thing that I've actually seen this year is a piece of software called VideoMyJob. And obviously, to disclaimer to say that other providers of the same software are available. And what I like about it is, we all talk about video being so important when it comes to recruitment, marketing and content, and that's all that software does, is it just makes it really easy for you to film a video. It puts subtitles up, it tells you where to put your head in the frame and it does a few simple things to make what you're doing really good and really effective. So, it's not kind of a massive groundbreaking thing, it's just something that really helps people, to get good at doing video and to actually put content out there that looks as good as it can be. So I think it's simple technology like that, that's my sort of current favorite stuff in a world of complexity. Joel: You know what I think, to piggyback on VideoMyJob, I think part of the reason, and this also goes back to the Podcasting, is that those things are effective partly because they leverage a platform of distribution that is now, I guess, evolved enough to where those things work. Like VideoMyJob would not have worked 10 years ago as well as it does today, because you didn't have YouTube, you didn't have social media, you didn't have the channels to sort of easily distribute it. Just like Podcasting [crosstalk 00:26:16] 10 years ago or yeah, mobile. So, a lot of those little technologies are great because they leveraged platforms that exist today, that didn't exist tomorrow. So what exactly is going to exist tomorrow platform wise, that will sort of give birth to these new companies? I don't know. Joel: Now to your question of the future of recruiting, the automation piece seems really disparate right now. You have things living alone or in you know, silos. And I think the holy grail is to be able to pull all of these things together. Where you basically, you post a job and it, it programmatically distributes everywhere. Everyone comes in through a prescreening process with a Chatbot that's automated. The scheduling goes through an automation process that goes right into Google calendar or your Microsoft programs, or 365 and then the actual interviewing is when the actual process starts. So you actually, I think recruiting will be not talking to someone until they actually come through the door because they've been scheduled on your calendar automatically and they've been pre-screened and sourced and everything. And then that sort of a face to face relationship is where recruiting and people who are good at that in recruiting, that will really excel. Joel: So I think right now all those systems are sort of separate. Someone will bring it together and Chad and I sort of disagree on this sort of one platform to rule them all. But it's pretty evident to me that people like Google or companies like Google, Linkedin, Slash Microsoft, Indeed, ZipRecruiter, and others are trying to solve that sort of one process problem and we'll see if they can figure it out. Number two, if that really is the holy grail or not, but I do believe that's probably the future of where recruitment is going. Chad: My favorite right now though are the companies, the startups who are focused on being able to help hiring companies, staffing companies, leverage that resume database that they've spent millions of dollars building, in their applicant tracking system or their system of record, that they're just not using. It's ridiculous that every single day companies, recruiters are posting jobs out and they're buying candidates that they already have in their database, so big shout out to a Candidate ID and Opening.io, they were on the death match stage in Portugal. They both do this in different ways. Candidate ID focuses on that nurturing piece and being able to nurture the individuals that you've already purchased, that are in your applicant tracking system. And then Opening.io's more on the matching scheme piece. So obviously you have a job, it's open, the recs open, it goes into your system and it pulls those candidates forward before you go to pay more money. Chad: And that's the thing is that from a talent acquisition standpoint, we need to do a much better job on positively impacting business, and that means bottom line and using our dollars much better. This is more of a practical way to actually dive in and be more process-oriented and focused on what we've already bought. So those are my favorite right now. All the video stuff and that's all cool, but I think being able to really leverage your data that you've already bought is the key. Matt: Absolutely. Joel: That's challenging because you have, Chad mentioned two companies that are successfully doing that, but we also have companies that did somewhat of the same thing and have clearly failed or are failing. So you have like Restless Bandit that just basically sold for pennies on the dollar, allegedly, you have Crowded, which sort of imploded internally and didn't get it done. All those four companies are doing, trying to solve the same problem but half of them are succeeding and the other half are going by the wayside. Which brings you to that whole confusion thing of like, "I know we need to be doing this, but exactly who should be doing it?" And I think that's why you have a lot of people relying on friends and colleagues for word of mouth and recommendations on who they use. Chad: So if companies have startups coming in, they should already know how they want to use that technology. They should know the process, they should know what their objectives are for using said technology. That's the biggest issue that we have right now. Companies are looking to startups. Many of these startups have never been in our fucking industry before and these individuals are not integrating, these startups are not integrating, they're not focused on the points of execution of how to make it work because they don't understand how it should work. Joel: And don't forget about pivots, right? Like, "The product I bought last month is the same company but they've pivoted and now there are a different product. So like my head is totally spinning around that." Chad: So are you seeing that in the UK as much with more focus into the objectives they've started out with? Or are they just pivot machines like we're seeing over here in the US? Matt: It's very similar. It's kind of very similar across Europe. Lots of startups looking to solve, sometimes just one problem which could be a niche problem, they might pick up a few clients, they don't get the traction they need, they then start to solve another problem and things just get very confusing basically. Matt: And I think one of the problems is that there's so much money coming into the sector, there are so many investors sort of looking at this and thinking well recruitment's broken and if we could back the people who are going to fix it, then we're gonna make a lot of money. So lots of money coming into the sector, lots of it is being spent on marketing and branding and advertising. Which kind of ups the amount of noise and kind of reduces the overall traction because there are lots of people competing to solve the same problem and it makes for quite confusing landscape. Matt: Things are changing and it's really important that people go back to that same thing, just understand what are the problems they need to solve and how best to solve them. Joel: For those listening on Matt's show. You can find out more about us at chadcheese.com and for anyone listening on our show, Matt, where can they find out more about you? Matt: You can go to rfpodcast.com or just search for Recruiting Future in any Podcasting app or on Spotify or wherever you access your podcasts. Chad: And you'll be able to see us both on stage at REC fast in London. Right? You're going to be on the R-100 stage in London. That's July 11th and we're going to be closing out the show. Joel: Can we come crash your presentation? Matt: Yeah, you can. I'm doing kind of a panel debate about automation and recruitment. And my session is before the bar's open. And your session is kind of right at the end of the day. So you know, the audience reaction might be slightly different. Well it should be an interesting event definitely. Chad: What we should do is, we should do that panel before the bar's open and then do the exact same panel on the main stage after and everybody has to be drunk when we're doing that. So I think that's a balance between the two. Matt: I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. And knowing most of people on my panel, I think they'd be well up for that. Chad: Excellent. Joel: Thanks Matt. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your Podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more visit chadcheese.com, oh yeah, you're welcome. #MattAlder #Future #Recruitment #Technology #Tengai #Uncommon #Openingio #VideoMyJob #video #Crossover #chatbots

What do you get when you bring 65 years of industry experience under one podcast? Press play and find out, as the boys chat with Nexxt’s 25-year veteran Andy Katz. There will be beer on this Nexxt exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Today on the Chad and Cheese Podcast, we have Andy Katz. Joel: Lovely day. Chad: Andrew Katz now, we're sitting on the porch here at ... Joel: Indianapolis icon- Chad: The Veranda- Joel: ... Harry & Izzy's. Chad: Harry & Izzy's. Joel: On the north side. Chad: I have a bourbon on the rocks. What do you have, Andy? Andy: I have some Ketel One and seven. Chad: Ketel One and seven, is it ... Andy: It's noon somewhere. It's 5:00 in London. Chad: It's just about noon. It's almost noon here. Joel: A pint of zombie dust over here. Chad: Yeah, zombie ... I had my fill of zombie dust last night, man. That shit is awesome. Joel: You look a little zombie-esque. Chad: I love it. Joel: After a night of zombie dust. Andy: You cleaned out the bar of the zombie dust. Chad: Yeah, I love it, dude. So we have Andy Katz here- Joel: It's a good thing this isn't on video. Chad: And I've known Andy for a few years. How long have we known each other? Andy: Probably about 20. Chad: Yeah, probably about 20 years. Andy: Just a few. Joel: Did he have hair back then? Chad: No. Andy: No, Chad did not have hair, but he definitely looked younger. Joel: Oh, ouch. Chad: That hurt, wow. Joel: That does hurt. Andy: Sorry about that. Chad: So for all these new to the industry people, Andy, tell us a little bit about you. Andy: Sure. I've been in the human capital space for about 25 years. I started my career at Bernard Hodes group, also known as Symphony Talent- Joel: Were you selling newspaper ads? Andy: I was selling newspaper ads. Joel: Nice. Andy: I was that dinosaur that woke up on a Sunday when I lived in the city and went to a ... There was a newspaper store that got papers from all over the country. I'd go there every Sunday, buy about 40 newspapers, and make sure they didn't fuck up my ad lines and made sure my display ads weren't upside down. Joel: So for the kids out there, what would have been the most you would have made on a display ad in a newspaper back then? Andy: Oof, you talk about full-time- Joel: That was big money, right? Andy: ... full-page ads in the New York Times, they were 100 grand a pop. Chad: Holy shit. Andy: And they were ordering them for three weeks in a row because they got a 50% discount on the third week. So I mean, those were the days where- Joel: Cash money, boy. Andy: ... the agencies were printing money. Chad: Dude. Andy: At newspaper, printing money. Chad: They were printing fucking money. Andy: Yeah. Boston Globe, I remember the days they had 150 full-page ads to start out their classified. Chad: So talk about how that whole trend, and you seeing it, how that came to be with the Internet, all these crazy job boards? Because I mean, that just turned everything on its fucking ear, right? Andy: It did, it did. And it didn't happen overnight. I could, not to keep promoting Hodes or Symphony, but we were one of the first with the job board too, Career Mosaic. That and Monster Board were the first two job boards out there, OCC. Chad: Yes, OCC. Joel: eSPAN, don't forget eSPAN. Chad: Nobody remembers eSPAN, Joel. Andy: No, Joel, sorry. Yeah, that's in the morgue. Joel: NAS remembers eSPAN. They're still around, dammit. Andy: So yeah, it wasn't a change overnight. Some newspapers made the change sooner than later, others- Joel: And most did both, right? I mean, very few would just say, "Let's just go online." Andy: Right. Joel: It was doing both. So probably for a while- Andy: Absolutely. Joel: You were making a lot more money, 'cause they were doing split ads- Andy: We were, there were ad-ons. It was go take out a full page ad and we'll put this job up on this website called Monster Board or Career Mosaic that no one ever heard of back in 1994, '95- Chad: Oh, fuck yeah. Andy: For an ad-on for 300 bucks onto your $100,000 ad, it made sense. Joel: Nice. Andy: It made sense. Chad: That was too easy. Andy: Yeah, it was an easy sell. And you know, between Monster and Career Builder at the beginning of time, they just took off and everything started moving over there. They both made good relationships with the newspapers and had more of an ecosystem behind them. So it was buy a newspaper ad, get an online posting for free or vice versa, and- Joel: When did you see the writing on the wall? When did you say like, "Okay, this newspaper thing probably won't last." Andy: Yeah. Chad: When were newspaper reps saying, "Oh, fuck"? Joel: When did you start seeing the gravy train drive away? Andy: I would say, I'm going to go with early, early 2000. I think we made it through Y2K- Joel: So the first recession, maybe? Andy: Yeah, 2002, 2003, probably right around there. Joel: Okay. Andy: I think after the world actually continued to move forward when it should have blown up 'cause of Y2K, I think everybody was pretty much status quo the '98 to 2001 and make sure it all lived, and then starting in 2002, that's when job boards really propelled us into the future. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So that being said, that was an exciting moment. And Joel always, we always talk about how that was exciting as hell. Andy: It was. Chad: We were there, we were watching- Joel: Superbowl ads. Chad: And it's like, "Holy shit, dude," blimps, Superbowl ads- Andy: I want to be a yes man. Chad: Yeah, I want to be a yes man, that's right. Chimps, all that other shit. Joel: I want to brown nose. Chad: But is it not more exciting now? I mean, there's so much shit that's going on- Andy: It is, it is. Chad: So much money pouring into this goddamn industry. Andy: Well, I think that's what people got scared of. They saw how do you take, and I'm being a little facetious with the 100,000 ads, they were there, but they weren't the norm. Chad: Right. Andy: But a $5,000 ad was extremely common, even if you were running a secretary ad. So ... And that's in major markets obviously where prices were high, so you know, we saw that, it was exciting, we were printing money, people didn't want to say, "How do I go from a $5,000 print ad to a $1,500 posting package?" And at the end of the day, if you look at it and you own the job board, you got 85% of the 1,500. If you were using a newspaper, you got 15% of that. Chad: Right. Andy: So if people really would have thought forward, they would have seen it all equals out, and the Internet is here to stay and it's going nowhere. So embrace it versus try to go around it. I mean, I think the same thing now is with programmatic. People think that's the next end all, be all, and it's extremely big piece of any puzzle, but, and we have to embrace it, it's not exactly the way job boards or agencies want to work, but it is one piece of the overall strategy. Andy: So I think everything keeps morphing. Chad: Why wouldn't agencies want that, though? Because I mean, from a complexity standpoint ... Andy: Right. Chad: The hiring companies are going to come to agencies when they don't understand shit. Joel: It seems like agencies are more valuable now than ever. Andy: the agencies, they're a wealth of information and extremely valuable, and I don't think it's agencies that are saying programmatic is the end all, be all also. It's the easy button right now. You could put all your jobs in one feed, distribute them to 10, 15, 20 places and let it be. But there's a lot more, and I'm not just speaking about at next, it's throughout the industry, you have text messaging, you have re-targeting, you have branding, you have all these other pieces of the puzzle that make up the whole hiring ecosystem, and to say that just one thing, I don't care if you say change my word from programmatic to a job posting or job posting to sending out text messages. One size doesn't fit all. You're not going to reach every audience with one medium. Joel: And I think from where we're coming from, companies know they have to do these things. They know they have to be in programmatic. They know they need a chat bot. Andy: Absolutely. Joel: They know they need AI. But they don't really know what that means. Chad: Yeah, or how. Joel: And agencies seem to fill the void of like, let us help you understand- Chad: They do. Joel: And guide you through that. Are you seeing that as well? Andy: Yeah, and they are valuable partners of ours. Without them, we wouldn't exist. So the agencies are ... They're our middleman between us and the customers or the client for lack of better words, and we're finding that even on the agency side, they're learning more and more every day 'cause again, it might be five, 10 years old, but in relation to the overall hiring ecosystem, it's relatively new. So we keep learning. I manage a huge part of Nexxt, I keep learning every day, I keep making us better, more efficient, offering better services to our job seekers and to our clients, and I think all the job boards out there are doing the same and all the agencies are embracing it and it's really about just having a whole arsenal of tools instead of just saying, "Here's one thing that works for everybody." Chad: Are you seeing a big movement from duration-based ads to performance ads, or is that just kind of like trickling right now? Andy: It's trickling. You still have some of the major players out there doing duration postings, and they're businesses. Sure, it's not where it was in 2007 or '8, but who's is, right? So they're still surviving, they're doing well off of them. I think it's slowly morphing from duration to performance. I mean, at the end of the day, if you're a client and you have $500, would you rather put it towards something that you don't know what the return you're going to get or would you rather say, "Okay, for $5,000, I'm pretty much guaranteed 100 apps"? Chad: So why isn't it moving faster that way though? I would think- Joel: Fear. Chad: ... from the standpoint from an agency- Joel: Don't like change. Chad: From an agency though, from an agency- Joel: True. Chad: An agency can say, "Look," and that's why you have the agency there, is to be able to usher you into these new lands, even though we're still 10 years behind the marketing industry. Why aren't we seeing more of that? Because you would think that that push would happen on the agency side. Andy: Well, I don't think you're seeing any new players come into this space making a duration posting, right? Chad: Right, okay. Andy: So everybody new is performance. You have a few legacies that are doing duration, and it works for them, and- Chad: So it's withering is what you're saying. Andy: It might be, and they're also morphing their businesses and other services to either compensate or move- Joel: Acquisitions. Andy: ... to performance, but it's one of those things I said earlier where not one size fits all, and duration postings still have a place. Sure, they're not where they were, again, 10 years ago, but they're still there now. Chad: Well, and there's still newspaper ads, right? Andy: And there's still newspaper ads. Chad: So, you know, to say that duration posting- Joel: What's a newspaper again? Andy: That's that black-and-white thing you open up on Sundays. Chad: Yeah, exactly, that- Joel: What's your read on the consolidation that we're seeing in the agency business? So you have Shaker buying up Arland Group, you have Monster buying KRT, right? Andy: CKR. Joel: Or CKR, sorry. Andy: Close. Joel: Is that a healthy thing? What's your take on what's going on there? Andy: Yeah, everybody loves competition. Competition validates you and you need different players for different ... Not everybody can handle a behemoth of a fortune 10 company, right? The smaller agencies might not be equipped, so they're going to handle maybe an SMB market. I'll say the same thing about job boards, I'll say the same thing about any of the CRM providers out there, talent community providers. There's a market for everybody. Now when you over saturate that market with too many players, that's when you spread yourselves too thin and nobody makes money except for the top three. Andy: Where if you consolidate on making a number up from 20 down to 12, that's healthy. And consolidation is the crux of this entire country and economy forever, people always acquire and build and grow from there, same thing will happen with the smaller players. Chad: So what about the UX side of the house? So candidate experience has always been a bitch. It's always sucked. But there's a lot of money that could prospectively be there to ensure that you're obviously getting the right talent, they're not ejecting before getting into that 20 minute application process into your ATS. So do you see a movement door down that path, or where does it go from a money standpoint? Where is the money moving? Andy: I think you're right, the UX still sucks, but I'm going to keep going back to not the number of years, but in relative, it's still a newish technology and way of recruiting. When someone figures out truly how to make a mobile apply mobile, that's going to be one of the winners of this whole endgame, and they don't have to do it themselves. They can license out that technology to 20 other players. The biggest- Chad: Didn't Indeed buy a mobile apply company? Andy: I think they might have. Chad: And they still haven't figured this shit out? Andy: Because the difference is, you might be able to get it in on the front end, but getting it in through the back end of the ATS when you have 50 different ATSs that gather information differently and APIs are different, it's impossible to bring it all down to one common denominator to make you be able to apply to all of them. So you might be able to solve for the top three or four at one time, but the long tail's huge still now too. Chad: Well, that's customized work though and that's money to be able to implement for like, somebody who has a Taleo and to be able to get it right. And I understand there's a shit ton of maintenance that has to happen on those APIs and so on and so forth- Andy: Oh, yeah. Chad: But still. Andy: Every client's ATS is sort of configured differently, right? Chad: Yeah. Andy: If every Taleo client had the exact same Taleo set-up, you can build an API, you can build a functionality, you can get everything through a mobile. That's not the case. Chad: No. Andy: Once you have one client do any customization to it, you're kind of fucked. So I think that's what people need to solve for and I mean, there's a lot of smart ... Much smarter people out there than me, and they haven't figured it out yet, so. Joel: So Nexxt offers a lot of services and solutions being in the industry for a long time, so you've seen things come and go. Five years from now of the new stuff, what are we still talking about? What are the big success stories in the future? Andy: Sure, I think it is going to come down to performance marketing. Everything is going to be performance. People want to pay for what the value they're getting. You know, text messaging, again, that's going to keep growing. Chad: I want to talk more about that. Andy: Okay. Chad: So let's put a pin in that, but keep going. Andy: Yeah, so I will say the text messaging's huge. I think retargeting's huge. The bounce rates on client's websites from job seekers is huge. Chad: Oh yeah. Andy: And we don't know every single step of the way why. There are actually companies out there right now that are working on that to show you where the gaps are and why people are bouncing where they are and how to recapture them, but retargeting's huge. If you can drop a cookie on your user and you can know where in the process they dropped off, you can then retarget them at the right time with the right messaging. Chad: But a lot of those cookies and the targeting and all that other fun stuff with GDPR and all these new regulations, new regulation was just put out yesterday- Joel: Chrome. Chad: About ... Andy: What? Joel: Chrome security on Google, they'll tell you how you're being followed, 'cause it's following you. Chad: Yeah, all the stuff, new legislation just pushed in Illinois yesterday. Do we feel like we're going to be able to collect enough data to continue to do those things? 'Cause right now, it's still the Wild West. Andy: Well, I think you have two ... Well, that was going to be my support to you, where GDPR is ... It's standardized across the European nations, right? Where in the U.S. we're not standardized, I mean, California has one set of rules, Indiana has one set of rules- Chad: But don't you have to like, develop a program for like the hardest set of rules? Andy: That's the way it should be, right. And then you have to have people opt in, double opt in, and then if you do that and you're in compliance, then you can drop your cookies. Every time you go onto a website, it's going to say, "We collect cookies. Are you okay with this?" If you accept it, then you know, and we can re-target it. So you know, you've got to go back- Joel: Will employers be comfortable with that message when people go to their site? That'll be an interesting dilemma, right? Andy: Well, let me ask you, have you ever left a site because it said it was collecting your cookies, or do you just go and clear your cookies out afterwards if you didn't like it? Joel: No, but I'm not an HR person who doesn't want phone calls or messages from job seekers saying, "Why are you following me?" Or "How are you following me?" Andy: Right, well- Joel: That may not be the most comfortable conversation. Andy: There's a stalking way of following somebody and then there's the way of re-targeting subtly. Joel: But if I'm an HR person, do I want to explain that? I don't know. Andy: I don't know. You know, you're talking about five years from now, right? Today, I'm agreeing with you. Five years from now- Joel: Okay, keep going. Andy: Again, the landscape changes. Right? So how do you reach the passive job seeker or the active one that maybe have interest but just didn't want to go through your 20 page application? But you have enough data on them from whatever pages you did collect, and say, "Damn, this person's a great candidate. How do I go back after them?" Chad: So okay, I'm going to pivot back to texting, because you guys have how many- Joel: You forgot virtual reality, by the way. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Andy: Augmented reality, [crosstalk 00:15:47] Joel: Virtual reality. Chad: He's still hanging on to Second Life like you wouldn't believe. Joel: I'll- Chad: So he's ... Joel: I will be redeemed one day, trust me. Andy: I heard MySpace is coming back, too. Chad: And friends, sir, if you ever go to Second Life and you see a fairy unicorn, it's Joel. Joel: Shh, don't give away my identity. Chad: So back to texting. Joel: I'm the only one there. Chad: Back to the texting side of the house. You guys have how many to date? You have like a database of like- Andy: Almost 8 million. Chad: 8 million? Okay. Andy: 8 million opted in text messaging job seekers. Chad: So text messaging is to me- Joel: They were brilliant early on. Chad: Fucking crazy. Joel: By the way. Very early on, they had an opt in for resume postings to get text messages. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And that's been a very profitable business for you 10 years later. Chad: Well, when you see the returns on text- Andy: Right. Chad: ... responses, and that hasn't changed- Andy: No, it's actually getting better. Chad: Yeah, why- Joel: Damn. Chad: Why isn't every company doing texting? We nail this all the time. Andy: Right. Chad: It's like, if you're not texting when you're recruiting, you're fucking dumb. I just don't get it. Andy: So I got to go back to slow to adopt, right? Five years from now, everybody's going to have some type of text messaging. Chad: But everybody needs top talent now. Andy: Everybody needs it now and you know, not everybody's going to survive. For whatever reason, and that might be one of the reasons- Chad: Well, that even means you, HR director or TA director. You might not survive because you can't get the talent fast enough because you're not using texting or some of these other programmatic tools or what have you. Andy: They are, and I think anybody would be remiss to say, "Let's not try everything and see what we get from it," because there's enough providers out there to say what works and what doesn't work. My best analogy when I'm talking to clients is, "If you had a million dollars to invest in a stock portfolio, are you going to put it all in one company?" Chad: No. Andy: And granted, yeah, in foresight I could have put it all on Amazon, Apple, Google, any of the fang stocks, right? Chad: Yeah. Andy: But my crystal ball's broken today. So my answer is, you're going to take your million dollar recruiting budget and spread it across 10 partners and move money around based on who performs best. And quite frankly, if Nexxt wasn't one of the ones that were performing for some crazy reason, 'cause we always perform ... That was a little plug. Joel: Obvi. Andy: You know, then they should move money out of our stock. Chad: Well, and that's where we were talking earlier about the agencies. They're like the consultants to be able to- Andy: They're your financial advisor. Chad: To help you make the right decision for those 10. Not for one- Andy: Right. Chad: But for the 10. Andy: And not for 40. Chad: Yes, exactly. Andy: Because you also don't want to be spread too thin. You have to have the right number of sources for your budget and for your recruiting needs and to make, again, I mean, I truly say this when ultimately we all really are looking out for the job seeker and we want them to have the best user experience, but we want to make money doing it. Joel: Aw. Andy: We do, we do. I know. Chad: He's so sweet. Andy: That was sweet. Chad: I'm going to give him a hug, give me a second. Joel: He's a tough guy, but he's really sensitive. Andy: Aw. Joel: Yeah, isn't he? Andy: Okay, I'd better order another drink. Joel: Are you sensing that companies are moving more toward a marketing competency? Are they moving too slowly? What's your sense on that? Andy: I think, especially the major companies and the top fortune 500, are moving ... I mean, most HR departments have an HR marketing department associated with it, right? Joel: Really? Andy: I think corporate marketing and HR marketing are becoming more and more prevalent working together, because they go hand in hand. Chad: Isn't that just splintered out though? Should marketing understand how they're touching all of these types of people, not a bad touch by the way, a good touch. Andy: Right. Chad: How they're ... Seriously- Andy: A touch- Chad: Yeah, there's a bad touch. There's such ... Joel: Chad knows. Chad: And that's what we're saying from like, employer branding and the HR marketing side of the house- Andy: Sure. Chad: It's like, they are a symptom of a fucked up brand or a fucked up marketing department, and that's not saying bad, anything bad about employment branding, because we need those people because all those brands, probably 99.9% of the brands, suck. Right? I guess my question is, how does this become an opportunity for us to be able to ensure that the candidate does have a great experience? Andy: Right. Well- Chad: Even with the fucked up marketing department? Andy: Well, and I think why marketing is such a huge component of this going forward, especially, not to sound trite from, you know, that we're so old, but in the digital age, everything touches each other, right? So you might be a job seeker, but you're most likely a consumer of that company's product of some sort, right? Chad: Yeah. Andy: So if you have a- Joel: Because everyone gets that. Andy: Right. Joel: Not. Andy: Exactly. Chad: They don't. They fucking don't. Andy: I sense the sarcasm there, Cheese. Joel: Yeah, sarcasm. Tongue in cheek. Andy: So they don't get that, and I think if you have a bad user experience and you're a retail or an eCommerce company and you have a job seeker that's coming to you and you have a horrible experience for them, they're not going to want to buy your product. They're not going to want to walk in your story. And I think marketing- Chad: The Virgin media business case has been out there for years. Andy: There you go. Chad: They lost $6 million because they treated candidates like shit, and then they had an opportunity to prospectively on the Delta go like 13, but I mean it's like, dude, this has been out there, and I just- Andy: And it's common sense. That's the crazy thing. Chad: Oh fuck, yeah. Andy: I don't even need your case studies or your data to support what I'm saying. Chad: I know, right? It's like, oh, well there's a case study now, it's like but that made sense before. Andy: Right. Joel: Are you seeing more marketing departments embrace recruiting or are you seeing more HR recruiting companies saying, "We need to embrace marketing"? Andy: I think I'm seeing more ... So marketing always had the cloud. HR was always the ugly redheaded step child, right? Joel: [crosstalk 00:21:27] Andy: Because they were a cost center. Chad: It's the money, yeah. Andy: When marketing is ... It's a cost center, but it's also the first thing that any of your consumers see whatever you put out there, right? Chad: And they drive leads for sales, which drives revenue, which the CEO likes. Andy: Exactly. Chad: That's the big fucking key. Andy: But I think, I mean- Joel: So more marketing is coming over to recruiting and how do we ... Andy: They're embracing them, 'cause I think HR would have always embraced marketing to some extent, because sure, I want to tap into your dollars. I want to co-mingle with you and do some branding on both the consumer and recruitment side at the same time. Chad: Co-mingle kind of seems like a bad touch though. Joel: I like that, though. Andy: But bad touch isn't always bad. Chad: Bad touch isn't always bad. That's what the name of this podcast is going to be. Click bait. Chad: So back to texting, give us more about what you're seeing on that side of the house, just because, I mean, I am- Joel: Yeah, how can it get better? Chad: Yeah. Joel: It was already pretty perfect to begin with. Andy: Yeah, how do you get better at 160 characters? It is what it is, right? Joel: Yeah. Andy: So, and that's- Joel: 95% open rates, 90% red rates. Andy: Exactly. But it's about also hitting the right audience, okay? I don't know that I want to be text messaging doctors, okay? But I might want to be text messaging nurses because they're on their shifts and they're on their phone and they're going to open up, you might want to ... Text messaging for retail workers or E-commerce warehouses. That's huge, because these people aren't going home and spending time on their computer. They're not going to, going home searching on Google for jobs. They want them in your face. How do you hit them? Andy: So I say this all the time, again, shameless plug for Nexxt, is the way we present ourselves is we have all the tools for recruiters to hit job seekers where they need to, and we have all the tools for job seekers hit them where they want to be reached. So if you want to be reached in text, you want to be reached in email, you want to be reached in the re-targeting, we will hit them everywhere versus a lot of job boards, and I like to think we're more of a recruitment media company, but job boards usually have one or two tricks up their sleeve, we have eight that we could fit into. Joel: Where do you put chat bots in the texting, messaging realm? Andy: Yeah, I mean, they're big. They're big, but that's not really to me a recruitment strategy, that's a supporting technology for whatever you have, right? So I don't think that's part of the overall I'm going to go text, I'm going to go email, I'm going to go do an employer branded email. This goes for each one of them. Chad: It's a user experience more. Andy: Right. So it's more like video or I'll put a chat bot in there where it's a supporting role to whatever your strategy is, it's not a strategy. But I think they're becoming key, especially ... It's like text messaging. If you're on a chat bot and someone asks you a question, you got your first 50 canned responses. But text messaging and chat bots are only as good as the user on the other side that's going to be able to customize that answer to that person if they ask an out-of-the-box question. Chad: So what about video? We've heard about video for 15 years- Joel: It killed the Radio Star, is what I heard. Andy: It did, I heard that, too. Chad: [crosstalk 00:24:33] I love the Buggles. So- Joel: Here's hoping it doesn't kill the podcasting star. Chad: Just so we know, this is all going to get cut out. So anyway, back to video, what happens with video? Everybody's so excited about it, but the adoption rate is incredibly low. We see Monster create Monster Studios through Video My Job. Joel: Instagram for Jobs. Chad: I still think that's going to be very low adopting just because there's steps that need to be taken. It's easier than it's ever been, don't get me wrong ... Andy: Right, but there's also a lot of privacy concerns. Like if I opened up a video interview of you, just as ugly as you are, I couldn't hire you. So is that discrimination? Joel: That's what I'm talking about. Andy: Where do you draw the line? Chad: I am sexy, goddammit. Andy: You are, you are. Joel: So it's probably more viable as an employer to present themselves in a video format- Andy: Exactly. Joel: ... than it is a job seeker to present themselves. Andy: I do believe you're talking right now- Joel: Of a higher view solution. Andy: Of a higher, right. Now, they've been talking ... I mean, there's obviously top video companies out there for years in our space, and they do well, and I believe an employer presenting themselves in the best light in a video is the best way to do it, 'cause let's face it, people don't want to read. They don't want to read shit anymore, right? If I can watch a 30 second clip or read an article for five minutes, I'm watching the 30 second clip. Chad: Okay, so let's jump to Shark here and go directly to Tengai. Joel: Easy, Fonzie. Chad: Have you seen the Tengai robot interview? Joel: Have you had nightmares, is a better question. Chad: What do you think about that? Because it was interesting, we thought right out of the gate, "Oh my god, this is fucking creepy." And then we met Tengai in Portugal, and I'm like, "That's pretty fucking cool." I want to take selfies with this goddamn thing. I want to tell my buddies about this. Andy: But are you doing it as a novelty or are you doing it as it really is a viable business model? Chad: I don't know that it would matter at this point. Joel: I believe governments will be the first to embrace this thing, because if they can talk about a totally unbiased recruiting process, to me that's where this will, where Tengai will take off. Andy: Yeah. Joel: So what do you think? Andy: Yeah, I don't know enough about it to say. It's relatively new. Joel: Yeah, oh no, super new. Andy: I mean, I saw it like a couple weeks ago. Chad: Super new. Joel: Super new. Whatever super in Sweden is, that's what it is. It's Abba new. Andy: I would say ... Chad: It's Abba. Andy: In a relative term, I'm going to use it lightly, I've been successful because I've always embraced new things until they've proven me otherwise versus not embracing them until everybody else adopted to them. So I find it interesting. I think that there's a place for it. I don't know what the adoption rate will be, but I would absolutely be supportive of it. I'm supportive of anything new that's going to connect people quicker. Joel: Good for you. Another "aw" [crosstalk 00:27:15] Chad: This is where a big applause line comes in. Andy: Boy, I sound like a sappy ass right now, but either way, I say what I got to say. Joel: Such a softie. Chad: Okay, so you're not in the agency business now, but you still work with agencies. Andy: Sure. Chad: Many agencies are becoming, which you well know, technology providers. What are your thoughts about that? Because technology providers versus unbiased [crosstalk 00:27:43] Joel: It feels like they're less so than they were 10 years ago. Andy: Break down technology. Are you saying reseller or are you saying builder? Chad: Builder. Andy: That's a great question. And here's where my answer is and I've not necessarily been asked this question in this same context, but if you can't be the best at something and you're not going to put all the resources behind it to compete with the people that are taking in 50, $100 million of equity to compete with it, stay the hell out of it and go partner with them, okay? I don't believe I truly have that mentality of buy versus build, and I buy what I can't- Chad: Or partner versus build, right? Andy: Well, yeah, that's buy to me, but yeah sure. Chad: Oh, okay, gotcha. Andy: Partner, buy, or resell, whatever you want to call it. If you can't be in the Top Echelon of what you want you're going to do, stay the fuck out of it, because someone's going to eat you alive and you are just burning resources in cycles on a team that could be doing something that's more core to your business. So you know, it's one of those things where everybody's going to make their own bed and we're going to see where they lie, but I think there's some great technology providers out there that I would partner with in a second. Chad: I love that. Don't burn resources in cycles, because that is happening all over the fucking place right now, and not just- Andy: Absolutely. Chad: ... startups everywhere are burning like you wouldn't believe. Burn rates are crazy. Joel: We talk a lot about the arms race particularly between Microsoft and LinkedIn versus Google. Where are you putting your bets on those two Goliaths? Andy: Well, if you look at share numbers, and I don't have them in front of me, I think Google has like, 60-something percent of the search results and Bing is behind that with like 20 or something. I might be off whatever my numbers is, but it's like a three to one- Chad: Yeah, I think Google's higher, yeah. Andy: It's higher than 60-something percent? Okay. I'm a little outdated. But anyway, I think there's a place for everybody, right? I don't think that it's winner takes all. Chad: No, I'm good. Andy: So I think LinkedIn and Microsoft, I mean, Bing's a great search engine, LinkedIn has a great product. Google's a great search engine, Google for Jobs is a great product, right? Does that mean they're the only two to survive? More importantly, does that mean those two are the only ones that survive and kill out every job board underneath them? Absolutely not. I think there's going to be consolidation in that market in the next three to five years that we probably haven't seen in the last 30 years for the better. But I don't say is it Google or is it Microsoft, I say it's both. Joel: Is there a giant in waiting that maybe you see that others don't? Andy: Ooh. Joel: I like to talk about Slack, for example. Chad: Amazon. Only if Slack is bought by Amazon. Joel: Which I've been predicting for years and is bound to happen eventually. Andy: Did you predict Tableau was going to be bought by Salesforce? Joel: I did not, I did not. Chad: And Google acquires Looker? Andy: Did you know Amazon was going to acquire Whole Foods? All right, then getting off topic. Joel: No, but the food industry ... Although food is my business, the food industry is not so much. Chad: Eating it is your business is what you're saying. Joel: Eating, yes, I'm very good at that. Chad: Eating portions. Andy: Okay, do I see any sleepers? No, I can see where you're going with Slack, I think data is key, Chad, you brought up Amazon. I don't put it past Amazon to own everything, and that's not a good or bad thing. It is what it is. But considering they're probably if not the largest employer or hirer right now, it would make sense for them to do something in this space. It would streamline the process for them, but I'm not on that side of the world. I'm ... Jeff Bezos I think is a little smarter and probably has a little bit more money than me. He'll figure it out before I do. Chad: A tad. Andy: Just a tad. Chad: A tad. Joel: What's on Nexxt's road map that you might be giving us a sneak peek into? Andy: One of the things I want to do, which again, it's a sneak peek and I'm not going to go into too many details, I really want to partner with talent communities and drive leads into talent communities, because I believe they have great technology but like any other database, unless it's filled with something useful such as job seekers, they're kind of only as good as they are. So I think there's ... I think talent communities' CRMs in general are going to be, if they not already have replaced them, the first iteration of an ATS, ATSs are the endgame. Talent community's in the middle ground, and getting people in there. Chad: They're the cosmetic layer, right? The user experience and hopefully- Andy: One's a compliance thing, one's a sourcing. Chad: Yeah, exactly. Andy: Right? Maybe that's a better way of saying it. Joel: Dude, all this talk about Whole Foods and food is making me really hungry. Andy: So you want to order food, right? Chad: I need a shrimp cocktail. Joel: I agree. Andy: Wow. Joel: I agree. Andy, dude, thanks for this. This was fun. Andy: Thanks for having me, thanks for not beating me up. Joel: For people who want to know more about Nexxt or you, where would you send them? Andy: I would send them to either Nexxt.com or feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn and I will always respond. Joel: And that's Nexxt with two Xs. Chad: Not the triple X. Andy: No, definitely don't go triple X. You're going to get a surprise on your computer. Joel: No, that's the one on my private browser at home. Andy: Yes. Joel: We out. Chad: We out, later. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors, because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Nexxt #ATS #Google #Amazon #jobs #partnership #CRM #Engagement

Another week of breaking news highlights this week's show. - C-suite ejections at CareerBuilder, - Job.com readies for an IPO and a Monster partnership, - Government muddies AI interviewing - Rapid Fire w/ -- Google for jobs France, Love Mondays to Glass Door, Nymeria launches Reach & RecTxt launches and last but never least - Whining male managers Enjoy and show Sovren, JobAdx and Canvas lots of love, because they make hearts skip beats. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions connects jobseekers with disabilities with employers who value diversity and inclusion. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and load of snarks. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Oh yeah, suckers. Joel: I'm ready to floss like a boss. Welcome to the Breaking News edition of the Chad and Cheese Podcast: HR's Most Dangerous. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm just happy that the Saint Louis Blues and Toronto Raptors fucking won. Joel: My Canadian wife is very happy with the latter of those. On this week's show, more bleeding at CareerBuilder. Good lord. Job.com dropped some mad news on us, and government could derail this whole AI recruiting thing. If you can't listen with the one you love, just love the one you're with, baby. We'll be right back after a word from Sovren. Chad: That's true. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now, based on that technology, comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. Sovren: In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job, and just as importantly, the jobs fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com, that's S-O-V-R-E-N dot come. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren: Sovren. Software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: Nah. Chad: So, let's make this clear, okay? I am not a St Louis blues fan, but what I am a fan of is seeing an organization that has never won a championship beat any fucking Boston organization, because those guys have so many championships as it is. Anybody from the Boston area that are still tearing up because they lost, fuck you guys. I mean, seriously. Look how many championships you guys won. Chad: And then we take a look at the Toronto Raptors. Again, this is an underdog type of season, which makes me feel ... And I know Joel's going to bring this up, that his Browns possibly have a chance. And I'm going to say- Joel: Why would you jinx some shit like that, dude? Don't bring that up. Chad: Dude, there is no jinxing the Browns. Pretty much the Browns equal jinx. They're synonymous with jinx. Joel: I'm just hoping for a not embarrassing season this year. I mean, the pressure is such that they're bound to totally implode and end up 0 and 16 or something. I'm not expecting the best, but I'm also probably expecting the worst. Chad: Yeah. Okay. Well, let's go ahead and let's hit this shoutout, because we've got a shit ton of these. Joel: Yeah, yeah. No tears for Boston, for sure. I'm so sick of Boston teams. All right, who I'm not sick of are the Rothbergs, Steven and Faith, two of our most loyal listeners. Apparently they listen to multiple shows on their deck as they're eating breakfast, lunch, dinner. In my opinion, the married couple that Chad and Cheeses together stays together. So feel the love, the Rothbergs set the example. I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy. Chad: I have to say the same about companies. The companies that Chad and Cheese together stay together. And one company, KRT, who listens to the podcast, Mona, Olivia, and fanboy Chris. Wait a minute. No, his name's Ryan. Yeah, Ryan. I always forget his name. They sent me a Talk Nerdy To Me starter kit, and you know the whole reason for this thing is that Ryan loves trolling Joel over at Shaker. Joel: Next up on shoutouts, Andy from Nexxt, who will be publishing that interview I think soon. We had some good lunch and drinks last week, and it was really fun to visit with him. Anyone from Jersey is always fun to hang out with for a little bit. Chad: Yeah. For small amounts of time, Andy understands this. Short amounts of time. But no, great interview, should pop out ... It'll come out soon, but when you see the interview with Andy Katz, definitely check it out. Katz been in the industry for 25 fucking years. He knows some shit. Joel: Yeah. We're talking 65 years total, between the three of us, of industry experience. It was good stuff. And the amount of money that he made on newspaper ads back in the day is really ridiculous. Chad: Oh, God yeah. Joel: For the youngsters out there, it's a great history lesson for the way things used to be. Shoutout to the gang in Belgium, E-recruiting Congress, House of HR put that on. I had a lovely time in Belgium, the medieval town of [Git 00:05:19]. Things move at a different speed over there in Europe, and it was nice to take a breath and have a beer, and breathe all the second hand smoke. Chad: And I bet you take a look at ... Even though they do have much more smoking over there, they probably ... There's less dying of heart disease. I'm going to have to check that out, just because they're chilled. There's no stress, little to no stress. And they're drinking all the time. Joel: It's just ride a bike around, smoke cigarettes, drink beer, sit by the river, look at the architecture. Life moves at a much different speed there in Belgium. Chad: Exactly. Who else you got? Joel: Is it too early to bring up Tim Sackett and the- Chad: No. Tim Sackett needs to get those elevator shoes ready, because his short ass is going to be on stage next week at SmashFly Transform in Boston. Joel: Do you think he's getting his bow ties dry cleaned this week? Chad: That's a good question, and I wonder if he ties them himself, or if he does the strap-on. Because he looks like a strap-on kind of guy. Joel: You know he's only a pair of suspenders and a rolled up pair of jeans away from Urkle town. So Tim, we're waiting for the day, man. We know it's coming. Chad: Oh, yeah. So we're going to be onstage ... Believe it or not, they're actually bringer us onstage with Delta Airlines. We're doing one of those no bullshit kind of employer brand marketing, and whatever the hell we want to talk about panels. But Holland McCue ... Or is it Dombeck? Holland, you need to figure out what your last name is. Joel: It's his whole first name. Chad: Holland's awesome. Anyway, she's the head of employer brand, marketing, and all the cool shit that happens at Delta Airlines. Fiserv's Julia Levy, global talent acquisition's going to be onstage, and JZ. He personally told me he just put himself on the panel because he wanted to piss Sackett off. Joel: Keep in mind for the newbies out there, this is not the rapper Jay-Z, this is the head of marketing at SmashFly JZ. Chad: Josh Zywien. Joel: Zywien. Zywien's World. Party time. Chad: Then I'll be in Jobg8 in Denver later this month, watching my beautiful wife Julie do her presentation, her thing, onstage. Can't wait to see that. And then ... Here it comes man. RecFest, bitches. RecFest. 3,000 attendees, they're already sold out, guys, sorry. There might be a wait list, so check it out, but anyway. 3000 attendees, five stages, and we are fucking headlining. This is going to be ridiculous. Joel: The stars and stripes are coming across the pond to break shit at RecFest. Get ready. Chad: So, do you have your red, white, and blue speedo? Joel: It was originally a thong, but I thought the audience is a little too conservative. So I'm going to pull it back to speedo-ville. But yeah, the red, white, and blues will be in full force in terms of my attire, I don't know about you. Chad: Excellent. Yeah, no, I'm not going to go that way. I'm going to allow you to be the center of attention. Joel: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. All the love. Chad: I'm here for you. So again, if you're going to be in London, you're going to be at RecFest, look us up. We're also having the guys from Talent Nexus, we're doing some really cool video stuff with them, so look for that. It's just fucking crazy, but we're excited. And that being said, I think it's time to talk about shit. What do you think? Tengai: Hi. This is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I love these guys. Joel: All right. Chad: I just got a text, I shit you not, right before we started recording, from one of my buddies. He's been in the industry for 15, 20 years. He said, "Someday, you're going to have to explain this Tengai shit to me." Joel: And we'll put it in a podcast, so everyone else that's asking, "You'll have to explain this thing to me," can know that too. Chad: Yeah. Pretty simple. Yeah. Joel: CMO. CB. Ejection. Dude, this is crazy. Is anyone left at CareerBuilder? Chad: I don't think so. Joel: Everyone new lasts about a year. Chad: Yeah, no shit. So Amy Heidersbach, I think it is- Joel: Heidersbach. Chad: Heidersbach. She was there for a year and four months, and this lady has amazing cred and background. She was SVP at Visa, she was head of marketing at PayPal, she was VP slash head of marketing at Capital One, and those are just some of the places she's been. This is the kind of talent that you want to be able to launch your brand, your market, your name, all that stuff ... But I guess she saw the writing on the wall, and said, "You know what? I should probably get the fuck out of here, because this brand in itself is for shit." Not to mention, as we've heard from multiple contacts, that it really feels like they're trying to prep everything to chop up and sell. And that's to me, it doesn't seem like it's too far from that. Where are they going to go from here? They're definitely not going to go up, that's for sure. Joel: Yeah. I'm just amazed that Amy failed to look at Glassdoor reviews before accepting a job at CareerBuilder. Anyone with her clout and expertise that would read through their Glassdoor reviews would want to jump on the CareerBuilder train ... Clearly she didn't listen to our show, ever, although she should have. That would've probably saved her a lot of pain and suffering as it was. But yeah, this marks I think the second good executive that they've had jump ship after about a year from coming onto the company. So clear as day, man, shit's not good over there, and the executives are proof positive after just a year, getting the hell out of Dodge. Chad: And if I were the Textkernals or the Broadbeans of the world, I would be asking myself, "When are we going to be carved up and sold off?" Because really, those businesses, I think, my personal opinion, are the easiest to compartmentalize, and hell, they just bought Textkernal for goodness sakes. But anyway, if you think about it, that might not be a bad thing for those brands. Joel: No, I just don't know who the buyers are. There used to be a day where job boards would buy up these companies, trade them like baseball cards. But those days are over, I mean the companies that people are buying, they're not buying these kinds of companies, and they're not really buying what CareerBuilder's going to be chopping up and selling off. So I don't know. We'll see what happens. Chad: So you remember when Sal took over Monster, and then everything just went to fucking shit? Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: Not going to say that it wasn't going that way in the first place, before Matt got kicked to the curb, but you can see that kind of happening with Irena in place. Can you not? Is it just me? Joel: Well, yeah. We've been talking about her for a long time, not being a forward thinking executive. She's a pencil pusher from back in the day, so there's no surprise that there's no vision there, no excitement, no energy around these executives that are joining the company to stay on. I've heard rumors that her clock is ticking, and that her time at the company will probably be short lived, unless some real shit gets turned around, and the executives that are departing the company say that shit isn't getting better. So I'm going to be surprised if she still has a job at CareerBuilder come January 2020. Chad: Big meeting, I believe, is actually next week with board. So yeah, I think that's going to be a defining moment. You're either going to see more big name heads roll, or you're going to see her head roll. Joel: Predictions? Chad: Her head roll. Joel: Yeah. I believe there's going to be some punching bag work going on on her at this meeting. Good luck, Irena. It was nice knowing you. Unfortunately, if she just would've come on the show, maybe it would save her job. But she didn't. Joel: Speaking of more news ... By the way, that's sort of breaking news. That hasn't ... You got on that super early, so most people are hearing about Amy leaving CareerBuilder here on this show. More news, probably, for a lot of people, job.com was a guest on our firing squad show this past week. Chad: Aaron Stewart. Joel: Yep, and we'll be ... I'm sure you'll be publishing that in due time here. But we rarely get breaking news from those kinds of interviews, but we got at least two news stories from it which are worth talking about. Number one is it looks like job.com will be partnering with Monster.com's Talent Fusion product, which is basically their staffing solution. Chad, you know more about it than I do. Apparently not a done deal, but according to Aaron, it is pretty much a done deal. So you heard it here first, Monster partnering with job.com on their talent fusion product. Chad: Pretty big. Because as we've talked about with Indeed and Sift last week, I really see the evolution of staffing becoming more of a technical piece, an app to an extent. And it depends on obviously whether it's high volume or what have you, but we start to see that pushing forward as also, I think Aaron said, he's going IPO, right? Joel: Yeah, so the other news that we got from that is that job.com will be filing for an IPO this summer, I believe. So I would say by fall of this year, we could have a new IPO participant in the job boards space, which we really haven't had a major one in the job board staffing in a while. We've had ... We'll move on to Upwork and Fiverr, who are in IPO news, particularly Fiverr. But yeah, we don't get a lot of them, so it'll be interesting to see how job.com lands with Wall Street. Chad: Yeah, so moving to Fiverr, again, this is ... You start to see kind of like these two worlds meld, so you have job.com, which is really focusing on making staffing easier and more cost effective. But that's what you see with Fiverr, too. It's more low cost. People don't see it as staffing, but it really is staffing. I mean, you're really trying to focus on human capital, and filling holes in projects, and those types of things. So I think we're really starting to see this melding of what staffing slash human capital and technology means, and Fiverr goes IPO and you start to see their stock go through the roof. Joel: Yeah, Fiverr had a really good day. The stock is ... As we're recording this on Friday, went public on Thursday, today it's pulling back, but Upwork is benefiting from the attention that they're getting. And keep in mind, Lyft and Uber are also gig economy stocks, we don't necessarily think of them in that way, but the whole gig economy with Upwork, Fiverr, Lyft, and Uber are all seeing a lot of attention on Wall Street. Uber and Lyft had some rough rides there on the early going, but they're stabilizing and coming back from some of the lows that they've had in the last month or so. Joel: So yeah, we've been keeping an eye on this. I think it'll be interesting as valuations become clearer, do these public companies get snatched up by bigger entities like the Microsofts, the Googles, the Facebooks. Slack, as we know, will be going public soon as well. It's an interesting time to be in this space, and the platform seems to be what's really hot now at the public markets. Chad: Yeah. I mean, these types of platforms are good for what everybody likes to call the side hustle, but that's morphing into more of the full-time hustle, which is really, really cool, and some great numbers. According to Upwork's 2019 future workforce report, nearly 74% of millennials and Gen Z managers have remote workers, and 50% of managers increased their use of freelancers in 2016. So that was a few years ago, right? This makes it so much easier. As we take a look at the demographics of our changing workforce, boomers are leaving, we have millennials and Z's coming up. How do they want to interact, and how do they want to work? They want to work remotely, right? They don't have to hit a freaking time clock, so this is something that I find pretty awesome for companies to be able to try to look at to embrace these types of models as they become more readily used by regular Fortune 500 companies. Joel: Yeah, keyword there is millennials. God bless them. The businesses that are coming online that kind of cater to millennials are really hot. So Beyond Meat, which I know you're a fan of. The plant based protein that tastes like animals meat. Those companies are hot, the Etsys of the world, the Chewys, which is pet stuff. All these businesses that cater to millennials are super hot, and the workforce stuff is no exception. We're seeing a lot of heat around that as well. Chad: Yep. Yep. Joel: All right dude, let's get a quick word from our buddies at JobAdX, and we'll talk about government fucking up with fucking shit up on the recruitment AI side of things. Chad: Imagine that. JobAdX: Finding the right fit is important. When you're deciding on shoes for a long day at the trade show, when you're picking the right podcast for your commute, and most importantly, when you're looking for the right candidate. JobAdX: With JobAdX, you can attract more relevant, engaged candidates to your jobs by harnessing the best in ad tech targeting. JobAdX: From predictive industry analysis and keyword click data, to premium first page placement and reducing redundant applications, our candidate targeting technology ensures that you're reaching talent that's as interested in working with you as you are with them. JobAdX: Now with in-ad video and multimedia, you can share your employer brand story and company culture with Job Seekers, so they can visualize themselves in your office, all hands meeting, or ax throwing team building adventure, all without navigating away from your job posting. JobAdX: Increased engagement makes for fewer steps between job seeker and new team member. Ready to ramp up your job advertising campaigns with the best in ad tech? Visit our new website, at www.jobadx.com. That's J-O-B-A-D-X .com. JobAdX: Attract, engage, employ, with JobAdX. Joel: So this news was kind of an oh shit moment for me, Chad. Illinois, the great state of Illinois, introduced House Bill 25-57, the Artificial Intelligence Video Interview Act. And I don't think I'd ever thought about government really messing up the whole AI recruitment stuff, but yeah, government could really mess it up. So the bill out of Illinois would require employers to seek consent when they use AI platforms in the hiring process. It's passed the state's House and Senate, and is headed to the governor's desk. This is a really advanced bill that is probably going to happen. It really impacts sights like HireVue in particular. AutoVue, Gecko, and Mia were also mentioned. But basically anything that analyzes a respondent's facial expressions to judge if they're a good fit for a job, employees or candidates need to be made aware that this kind of rating system is being used in the interview process. Chad: I don't know how you didn't think government wouldn't fuck this up. Joel: I knew they could, I just didn't think they would. Chad: GDPR and the California regulations that are coming out, this is merely the start. But I want to read a comment from on of our listeners, and somebody who's been on the show. Comment from Quincy Valencia, AKA the queen of chat bots on social media post that I put out there. This is what she had to say, and I love it because she's so smart about this shit. Chad: She said, and I quote, "They would have been better off if they'd allow a third grader to write it. Define how AI works? Really? Delete it after 30 days. Cool. But then what happens when they're audited by the OFCCP and no longer have the video and analysis used to inform the hiring decision," end quote. Chad: So very easily encapsulated there. First and foremost, it is written really shabbily. And they're not thinking about how all of these other organizations actually have to record and report off of the decision that they're actually making. So government's not thinking about government. Go fucking figure, right? So this is ... Here are some of the things that you have to do. You have to notify each applicant in writing before the interview that AI may be used to analyze the applicants facial expression, and consider the applicant's fitness for the position. Number one. Chad: Number 2. Provide each applicant with an information sheet before the interview, explaining how the AI works and what characteristics it uses to evaluate applicants. Number 3. Obtain written consent from the applicant to be evaluated by the artificial intelligence programs. So here's the thing. This is only happening in Illinois, but this is going to have to happen for anybody who applies anywhere, because you know stupid shit like this is going to be rolled out in all these different states. Joel: Yep, yep. And not only that, but companies that are headquartered elsewhere do hiring in Illinois. So now they have to make special ... Ultimately, this is awful news for vendors that provide these services. Because ultimately companies are going to be like, "Ah, fuck it, it's too much to worry about or deal with. We're just going to be paralyzed by the government and not do these things, and let's just go back to fucking newspaper ads." Joel: Yeah. The whole privacy thing, we talked about California introducing stuff, now we're looking at Illinois introducing laws against AI recruiting solutions. So at the end of the day, companies are just going to throw up their hands and say, "Screw it," and start ups that may have started up won't start up, because they're too worried about government derailing their business. And that's, at the end of the day, a bad thing. Chad: One thing I didn't foresee here is them wanting platforms to dump the data after 30 days, or any type of timeframe. Because once again, you can't defend your position of why you hired an individual. So this is good and bad for companies, because this will be data that the OFCCP wouldn't be able to get their hands on in the first place, because it doesn't exist anymore. So for federal contractors that are like, "Oh, thanks state of Illinois. Now that's another piece of data that I don't have to provide to the OFCCP that they can scrutinize on this hiring decision." But on the other side, that information might've also been one of the big reasons why they made that hire. So if they actually said, "Well, yeah, we had the data from our HireVue system, but unfortunately we had to dump it after 30 days." Joel: In your mind, is this a continuous reaction to the whole Facebook privacy stuff? Chad: This, to me, just demonstrates once again that government can't keep up with technology. If you watch any of these Congressional hearings, and some of the actual questions that are asked of these CEOs, whether it's Mark Zuckerberg or whomever it is, right? It is idiotic, some of the actual questions that are being asked. It's like, did you ... I mean, you really, literally, did no research whatsoever. Joel: And I'd love to know how this even got brought up. Were there people that found out they were being analyzed, just anything AI? I'd love to know the catalyst for this law being introduced in the first place. Chad: Yeah. I think what they'd like to do is just get rid of it entirely, so the whole sentiment analysis and those types of thing, especially from AI. And this is just kind of like the first domino in being able to push some of that over. Joel: Because the thing is, AI's going to come into play with everything that we do, not just facial expression, but our voice, do we sound stressed? Do we sound like we're lying? Those tools are online, people can get your sentiment through written word. AI is going to be part of everything communication wise that we do, which is all interview based. So when do you stop, if you start at visual face, do you go to voice? And then do you go to written word? I just think this is a pretty slippery slope of government to really get into this, and really screw up innovation in our space in a big way. Chad: Yeah. The big question is what was the problem they were trying to solve, because I don't know ... If we knew what the problem was, it might be easier to understand why they went down this road, and more than likely they went down the wrong road no matter what. But it's all about what's the problem they're trying to solve, other than a knee jerk reaction to the public saying, "Oh my God, AI." Joel: Yeah. I think it's reaction to the whole ... I think privacy is first and foremost in a lot of governments, and I think a lot of Congress folks, state Houses et cetera, are trying to find sexy ways to get into press, and going after technology and protecting privacy are good ways to get headlines these days. Chad: Well, with some of the stupid shit that these tech companies are doing, they're easy fucking targets. Joel: Yeah. So let's talk about that. So the stupid things that the technology companies like HireVue's doing? Chad: Not HireVue overall. It makes it easier when Facebook, and Google, and all these organizations are talking about AI, and then tracking, and then the Cambridge Analytica. So you think of it from an extrapolated kind of a view, Facebook is collecting data, right? And that data is being misused. This is entirely different ... I would say levels up of data that once again could easily be misused. So that's the big problem. When you have assholes like Mark Zuckerberg, they don't understand how their tool can actually be used, what happens? You've got to go those next steps. Oh, wait a minute, now we have facial recognition. Oh fuck, enemy of the state. That's how this shit happens, so yes, I don't see this as, "Oh, oh my God, HireVue, the big bad ..." That's not the case. It's the Facebooks of the world that are fucking this up for everybody else. Joel: I do think there are larger global macro issues that are coming into play here as well, with China and Huawei and businesses not doing business with them anymore. Seeing videos of Obama and past presidents that look real, that are totally fabricated- Chad: The deep fakes? Joel: Yeah, this is kind of scary shit. And I think that politicians and their constituents are asking, "Okay, where do we draw the line? What is fair and proper, and what isn't?" A lot of this stuff is reactionary to fear of what's going on on a global scare as well, maybe locally with companies that we know and love, like Google, Facebook, et cetera. It's no accident that Apple is launching log in with Apple that totally anonymizes you as a registrant of a certain site, or doing whatever. That's a reaction of the whole connect with Facebook, or log in with Google. What exactly am I being tracked for, how am I being targeted with advertising? People are kind of scared, and government is a reaction to people's fears. Joel: Let's talk about some other stuff. Let's talk about some startups in things in the news. This is sort of a rapid fire session, I guess. So Rectxt, we rarely walk into new startups, but we were in Nashville a while back at the staffing tech conference, and sort of met two dudes over a bourbon tasting from Canada, and they mentioned, "Yeah, we're launching, tonight, a new text recruiting platform that's build on Google Chrome. It's kind of cool, you should check it out." So anyway, we've kept in touch with them, and they officially launched Rectxt, that's R-E-C-T-X-T, this past week officially. It is a Google Chrome extension that you can text candidates. So you can check that out. I think we had quite a few hot Nashville chicken sandwiches and wings with them while we were out there. Chad: At Hattie B's. If you want to get a point where we give a shit about this new product that's coming out, these guys are incredibly smart. They took us out for barbecue at Hattie B's, for craft beer. It was just incredibly smart. So let's put that out there, because more than likely, if it weren't for Hattie B's and these guys being so goddamn brilliant, then we probably wouldn't be talking about it. Joel: Yeah, the quickest way to our heart is hot food and cold beer, I guess. So kudos to those guys, good luck to them. Joel: So next up, we have Nymeria, who you might remember is a sourcing tool, where you can pull out emails and all kinds of stuff. So they're pivoting to ... Have launched TheReach.io, because I guess Reach.io was taken. Chad: I bet it was. Joel: But this is a ... Well, they pimp themselves as get any email, get any corporate email on planet Earth kind of thing. So interesting to me as this week we continue to go down the GDPR and privacy route is doing all these sourcing tools, sort of pivot into marketing tools, just grab stuff that won't get us into trouble, such as emails, which are usually public anyway. I don't know, we'll see the trends, see if hiring's solved, and hire tool, and seek out all those guys pivot over to more marketing stuff. Chad: Yeah, I don't know that sourcing versus marketing matters with GDPR, but I don't know. This is just a really interesting space. Let me just give you a shit ton of emails. I don't know. This, to me, is not exciting at all. I know it is for them, good for you, TheReach.io. The only better URL that was out there that's not available is gocanvas.io, but yeah. It just doesn't do it for me. I couldn't give two fucks about this whole thing. Joel: Yeah, they should've just named themselves gothereachgo.io something. All right, so also in the news, the brand that changed game. Love Mondays, a popular software- Chad: Mondays, Mondays. Joel: Anonymous employer review site- Chad: Oh, that sounds familiar. Joel: Which was acquired by Glassdoor a couple years ago, I believe, is now going to change it's name to Glassdoor. So Glassdoor will be the omnipotent brand there in South America for online employee anonymous reviews. Chad: So the big question is, do you still believe that Indeed is going to suck up Glassdoor and become the overall brand of this recruit holdings internet play? Joel: Well, I do believe that is the smart choice. I'm starting to believe it's not going to be the choice. In fact, I'd be more apt to say Indeed's review section will soon be powered by Glassdoor, because Glassdoor is sort of the monolithic brand now for employer reviews. Maybe Indeed will be powered by Glassdoor on their review section. Who knows? Chad: It should be, but I don't see, again, the whole hubris thing. Indeed's ego giving anything to anybody. Joel: Yeah, I agree with that. They'll just ... They'll aggregate Glassdoor reviews with their own reviews, and just call them their own reviews or something. Tag them, GD, or a little Glassdoor on them or something. I don't know. Joel: All right, continuing with rapid fire news, Google For Jobs ... Wow, it took us this long to talk about them, is now available in our favorite country, vive la France. Chad: Oui oui. Joel: Monsieur. Which is ironic, because I just presented in Belgium about Google For Jobs optimization when they don't even have Google For Jobs there yet. But I did comfort everyone in the audience, saying that, "Just wait, it'll be here eventually," and on cue, they launched in France, which obviously neighbors Belgium. So Belgium, it's coming soon, don't worry. All those optimization tips I gave you are very relevant. Chad: Well, and it's going to be interesting to see how Google For Jobs plays in all these different countries, because we're seeing in Germany, and France, and Japan that they're dealing with the market much different than they are in the US. So they're not just trying to roll this out the same exact way everywhere, so yeah. In Belgium, they might actually have jobs rank higher for the ability to smoke and drink. Joel: Yeah, I'm not sure anyone in Belgium works. I think they just ride bikes around, and sit on the water and contemplate the universe, and inhale secondhand smoke if it's not firsthand, and drink a lot of beer, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Chad: Yeah, except the secondhand smoke part, yeah. I think it sounds good to me. Joel: Yeah, I think the lack of stress balances the amount of smoke that you inhale while you're visiting there. But anyway, something that's not bad for your health, let's get a quick note from Canvas, and we'll talk about male managers who are threatened by females. Chad: Well hello. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvas Spot is at your side, adding automation to your work flow. Canvas: Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology, and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest cool culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. Canvas: We make compliance easy, and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent Ed: This is Ed from Philly, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Very nice. Joel: You know, with all this Me Too, women empowerment lean in stuff, you'd think we'd have made some progress in the workplace with men's interaction with women. Chad: Yes. Joel: But you'd be wrong. According to CNBC story, talking about a survey done by Survey Monkey, who is a interview alumn at the Chad and Cheese Podcast. We encourage everyone to go check that out. And leanin.org, which is Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg's organization. We've taken a step back. The Me Too and Time's Up movements have brought huge attention to the challenges women face at work, but a new survey finds that 60%, that's six zero, of male managers say they're uncomfortable participating in regular work activities with women, including mentoring, working one on one, or God forbid, socializing. What's wrong with men? Chad: Right out of the gate, boo fucking hoo, you whiny little dudes. I mean, give me a break. So these men, 60% of men are feeling uncomfortable. Okay, so now everything's flipped because women used to feel uncomfortable around your dumb asses, and if that's how you feel, you were probably doing shit wrong in the first place. I can't say ... I mean, I've managed men and women throughout my life, I can't say that I've been the perfect manager. I can't say that. But one of the things I can say is that if i do feel uncomfortable in a situation, especially like this, I was probably doing shit wrong in the first place. Get over yourself, understand that, much like in the '60s, the power balance is now back moving towards the women's side. And it should, since they're only getting like 75 cents on the dollar, not to mention we don't have enough women in leadership positions. Chad: So we have a bunch of men who are used to being on top, on the leadership rung, getting paid more, and now they're not, and they feel uncomfortable, and they pit it on this stupid shit of, "Well, I don't feel comfortable around being a woman," it's like, well then stop doing the stupid shit that you're doing, and it won't be a fucking problem, asshole. Joel: And I love that they use the word uncomfortable, like it's a wedgie. Chad: Yeah. So uncomfortable. Joel: It's a little chilly in here. Little uncomfortable. Chad: Yeah. You know what's been uncomfortable? Women not getting paid as much as men- Joel: Harassment. Chad: ... Women having the exact same skillset as men, and still not getting into the leadership position, and yes, the harassment piece, which pretty much encompasses all of this. When we focus on the equity inclusion, and in this case the appropriateness, if it makes you uncomfortable, that's because you're fucked up. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. So digging into this story, senior level men say they are 12 times more likely to be hesitant about the one on one meetings with a junior women than they would a junior man, nine times more likely to be hesitant to travel with a junior woman for work than a junior man, and six times more likely to be hesitant to have a work dinner with a junior woman than a junior man. Joel: Let's grow up, people. Let's just be human beings. Chad: Just slap these fuckers in the face. Joel: Of course, this inevitably effects the hiring process, right? If there's this comfort at the top, they're going to hire people that don't make them uncomfortable, which means more white dudes in the workplace. Chad: See, this is where I think it's incredibly smart, because this uncomfortableness means that change is happening, and that's exactly what needs to happen. So as change continues to happen, hopefully, then we will get more females in those positions they've deserved for years. They will be getting paid what they should be getting paid. So I think this whole uncomfortableness is because we have a bunch of men who are used to something, and change is happening. And I say boo fucking hoo. Joel: You know the change we really need? Chad: Tengai. Joel: An unbiased recruiting robot. Chad: Yes! Tengai: Hi. This is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I love these guys. Chad: We out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors, because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive shiny gold pair that are extra because ... Well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Careerbuilder #FIVERR #Monster #Jobcom #AI #HireVue #Interview #regulation #Upwork #Smashfly #RecFest

If you thought you'd heard everything from the Chad & Cheese European Tour in Lisbon for TAtech, well, think again. Here's their session on A.I. from RECex. Enjoy this Uncommon exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Chad: Enjoy this special RECex edition of the Chad & Cheese from TAtech Europe after a quick word from our sponsor. Chad: Dude, we're always talking about cool new tech, but it's hard for hiring companies to change. I mean adoption's a bitch. Joel: Yup. Chad: New tech can get them to qualify candidates so much faster. Joel: I know man, but recruiters already have their routine in place. And nobody wants to jump into another platform, especially when it's expensive and also requires hours, maybe days of training. Chad: Exactly, but that's where Uncommon's new service comes into play. Uncommon pairs expert recruiters with inhouse kickass technology. Joel: All right. Interesting. Interesting. It sounds like Uncommon understands the problem of change. Chad: That's why they hand select veteran recruiters, train them on this kickass technology that has access to over 100 million active profiles. Joel: Yeah, yeah. But I bet they're expensive and I bet it requires some kind of annual commitment or contract, right? Chad: No, man. Uncommon is not an agency. They don't require a contract, any contingencies. All they do, they charge one flat fee per project, saving, I don't know, anywhere from 50 to 80% on each hire versus the average agency cut. Joel: Oh, snap. Companies could save big stacks of paper, especially if they're rapidly scaling and need hires today. Chad: Yup. And all you have to do is reach out to Teg and the Uncommon crew at uncommon.co. That's uncommon.co. Joel: Change doesn't have to be a pain if you're using Uncommon. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Wake up all you Euro trash fuckers. Joel: Chad, we're screwed dude. The presentation before us said they'd make up their minds in three seconds. Chad: They've already made up their minds. Joel: Totally. Who's a listener? A few of you. Excellent, excellent. If you don't, something's wrong with you and you should tune in. Joel: So we're here to talk about what? AI, automation, the end of the world as we know it, basically. Chad: Jobs. Yeah, yeah. So, first and foremost, who is sick and tired of hearing AI all the goddamn time? Joel: I'm sick of seeing at every booth in every trade show that you see. Chad: Yeah. It's interesting because when we sat down with a bunch of individuals from SHRM who are on the Talent Acquisition and HR side, their hands went up quickly, but yet they didn't feel like they would even be engaging or using AI. And, in most cases- Joel: But they've got to buy it because everyone says I need AI, even though I'm not really sure what AI is and I don't know what your AI is versus the other vendors' AI. Chad: But the big question is, why is it so hard to understand what AI is? Joel: There's many different types of AI, Chad, and I think you've been to Wikipedia recently and you know if you have the different variations of a- Chad: I'll get my phone out. Okay, so we hear the ... just breaking it down easy because we're dumb guys and we like to make it easy. Narrow AI, also known as weak AI, if you remember Garry Kasparov getting beat by IBM, the chess master getting beat by IBM, that is what you would call narrow AI. That means that algorithm was smarter than that man, that grand champion wizard master, whatever the hell he was. Joel: It's a bit more decision tree and machine learning kind of AI versus the actual self aware stuff that Google and Microsoft are working on. Chad: Yeah, but, see, and that's the problem. See, that's where people get hung up is they think AI, every aspect of AI, is self aware, but it's not. It's baby steps to be able to get to the super- Joel: We've got a while before the Terminator shows up. Chad: So yeah. Joel: And the sex robots, unfortunately. Chad: And fortunately for China. So narrow AI, do we have that today in our industry? Yes, we do have narrow AI in our industry. You take a look at some of the technologies that are out there today, just one quick example. Three years ago, a little company called Brilent 4:44] went to SourceCon, came in third and that algorithm did in six seconds what the winner did in, I think it took 24 hours. Joel: So it took on three other humans sources, I believe. Experts. Chad: It took on more than that. So being able to actually outpace humans in a much faster, quicker, more efficient way is, obviously, part of that definition, so narrow AI. Just like, again, IBM computer, Big Blue beating, or Deep Blue beating Garry Kasparov, right? What did that computer do well? Chess. Could it make tea? No. Could it do anything else? No. Could it even tell the difference between a dog and a cat? No. It could do chess. Joel: Shallow, I get it. I get it, I'm with you. Chad: Narrow or weak. So the next level would be general or strong AI, which we're not even close to approaching yet. That would allow that narrow band to actually broaden up and do much more of those different tasks. Not separate algorithms, but an algorithm to be able to actually do more of those tasks just as well as, obviously, human beings and then "Super" is pretty much Terminator, life's over. Joel: So June 13th, 2016, does anyone know what happened on that day? On that day, Microsoft announced its acquisition of LinkedIn. And I would argue that that was the start of the arms race in our industry for AI automation in employment. So 26 billion dollars was the acquisition cost, actually 26.2 billion. At that point, Google said, "Holy shit." Facebook said, "Holy shit." Up until then, classified was like a one billion dollar a year business, Monster's valuation was around there at the time. So that wasn't really enough to get their heart racing, but 26 billion for a little 500 million people in a directory got their attention. Joel: So, when we look at who's on the cutting edge of the AI that you're talking about beyond the shallow stuff, you've got to look at Microsoft, Google and Facebook in our industry. Those guys are doing real AI stuff. In fact, I would argue that many of the vendors in our space are leveraging their APIs to say that they have AI, even though they're really leveraging Watson, Microsoft or Google. Chad: Right. And asking CEO Scott Gutz of Monster who, they need some fucking product, their answer was, "Yeah, we should take a look at products like that and build around them. I mean, that's strong, those are strong products, we should built around those products." So does it make sense that these big companies should be driving our industry, or they have been. Joel: Yeah, and it's a double-edged sword because you're using Google Search to power all your job search activities, but, guess what? Google's learning a lot by having you plug their Search capabilities into your job board or corporate website. So, in a way, you're sort of sticking the knife into your own back by letting Google into the house, a Trojan horse, if you will, to learn more about how people search for jobs and what they're looking for. Although you're getting a good search technology and you're able to lay off a lot of tech people and save a lot of money in the process. Chad: Save a lot of money, not to mention, you just get better results overall, better candidate engagements, getting your candidates to stick around longer to be able to actually apply to jobs. Companies are actually saying more performance-based [crosstalk 00:08:16]- Joel: There are tons of stories on saving money on customer service. Apparently, there are a lot fewer calls coming in about, "How do I search for a job," doing a Google search, yeah because of your search sites. Chad: And then moving beyond that, the applicant tracking system, which is also embedded with AI and automation. One of the big pieces that, and they just went, believe it or not, enterprise, "enterprise", with Hire, by Google. The thing that I love seeing within it, and something that Opening.io does as well, is the candidate matchup piece, being able to utilize the data you already have in your database, or your client already has in their database, and they've already spent money on those candidates to be able to surface them and get that hopefully in the pipeline much quicker. That's already embedded in Hire, by Google. Chad: The big question is, when's that going to be popped out as an enterprise API? Because it will be popped out as an Enterprise API, which means everybody else is going to have the same type of technology, AI, embedded into their- Joel: And, by the way, how does that impact job postings? If I can just search for candidates already in my database or this whole thing called LinkedIn which is 650 and growing, million user profiles around the world, how important is actually posting a job which impacts a lot of you who may be at job boards? I would contend that job boards are becoming less important and commoditized, which I believe, Google for jobs is also doing as well. Chad: Yeah, see, and I don't believe that because I believe job boards are still strong from one standpoint, and that's data. That's one of the reasons why they're getting so much traffic, not from traffic from the standpoint of actual dollars, so much of investment dollars is because of the data. If they can use that AI, if they can use that matching to be able to ensure that they can get to the candidate much quicker, that's one of the things that job boards can do to pivot into this new age of tech. Joel: Well, if you'd rather have Monster's data than LinkedIn's data, then you have at it. But I'd rather have LinkedIn's data and Google's data. Chad: Well, Google buys Monster's data. I don't think that works. Joel: No one's buying Monster, let's get that out of the way. Chad: So from a sourcing standpoint, you take a look at it ... when we were talking to, and actually had a sourcer get pissed off at me on Facebook this week because we were talking about- Joel: You pissed somebody off? Chad: Yeah, that's what happens. So Johnny Campbell, you might know Johnny Campbell, he's on the podcast. He popped it off this weekend, he said that 98%, he believes, just throwing out a number, 98% of sourcing should be automated, should be automated today. Not tomorrow, not in five years, today should be automated with the technology that's available. Now, we're actually seeing that. We're seeing RPOs actually go after high volume with programmatic, first and foremost, for active matching from the sourcing standpoint going into different databases, whether it's their database or clients' database, whatever it is. So going after those candidates from active and a passive standpoint, pulling them in at that point, going for engagement so automatically starting either with text messaging, email and then also offering that chat bot, which we haven't talked about yet, capability. Chad: So after you're going through that process, some cases, some of these processes within 10 minutes of actually having an engagement with a candidate within under 10 minutes, they'll be scheduled for an interview. Joel: What I think is cool about, you know, you if think of LinkedIn and Microsoft as an asteroid and maybe Google a secondary asteroid, there have been some natural examples today. When you have the asteroid hit, you have the mammals come up and smaller animals take over. So, in a similar way, you're seeing these smaller companies, the chat bots, the text messaging, the programmatic players be smaller, but come up in the world and you're seeing ATSs realizing that, "Hey, job boards have suffered through this new reality, now we have to prepare for what's coming. Hire by Google, you mention, going enterprise, that should get the attention of a lot of ATSs. Joel: So now they're trying to be the one stop shop platform, so you look at Jobvite recently in the States backing up the Brinks truck and buying Talemetry, RolePoint and Canvas. That was because the asteroid came, now we have to prepare for the survival of our tracking system going into the future. So you're seeing a lot of these smaller players, consolidations are happening and consolidation will continue to happen, I think, because of this new reality with automation and AI. Chad: So I'm going to call it audible because I took a picture of a slide, imagine that. And a company was talking about automation and how it has helped them thus far. So 57% of online applications an ad, or 57% of applications per month through their system because they had a shitty process in the first place. They started using chat bots to be able to engage and they started to see more applications. Joel: It's as big a deal in Europe as it is in the States. God, we talked about it in every conference. Chad: It seems that chat bots, automation, some type of at least form of connection and/or not sending them to a black hole, I don't know. Joel: Anti-ghosting magic. Chad: Is magic. And in this case, 66% less from the ghosting side of the house, which means 6% more individuals showed up for interviews and, obviously in this case, high volume day one. And then, 73% decrease in cost per hire, 73% decrease in cost per hire. This is their numbers- Joel: That's a lot of money. Chad: ... coming from the actual company. So once again, we talk about AI, automation, all the glitter and that other fun stuff. The thing that we need to really be focusing on first is process over technology and then problems over technology. That's what this company did. They focused on blowing up their process because this technology was going to provide them with more efficiencies. They didn't just try to layer over more technologies and they also focused on the problem, as they understood the problem. Not, "I need a chat bot," or, "I need to do programmatic, everybody's doing programmatic." Yeah, you probably do, but first and foremost, what the hell's your problem? What's your process methodology? How can we make this much easier for you, more targeted, performance driven and then you start to seeing numbers out of this. Chad: This is one of the reasons why the sourcer was pissed at me this week, because there's actual proof out there that, to be quite frank, if you're doing it right, you could push those sourcers into more of a brand ambassador position, if you'd like. There's many more things that they can do much better within the organization. Joel: So much of this reminds me of our conversation with Colin Day of iCIMS who said, "You know, my competition isn't the new ATS or the new CRM or the new Talent Management system. It's all the clutter and noise in the industry to try to get a customer or prospect to actually talk to me and understand what I'm doing versus all the noise that's out there." So, I think that when we talk to you guys, if this is overwhelming, I think imagine what your customers and prospects feel when they're getting calls from chat bots, programmatic advertising solutions, text recruiting, job boards, ATSs, CRM. Chad: We had a room full of HR professionals, TA professionals, we asked who is using, or knows about, Google For Jobs. Two people raised their hand. Joel: There they are. Chad: Two people in that group. And everybody- Joel: And me. Now there's three. Okay. Chad: Everybody else looked at us, everybody else looked at us like they had deer in the headlights, they had no clue what the hell we were talking about. Had no clue because there's so much coming after these guys. Talent acquisition has so much that's being thrown at them every single day which is one of the reasons why I'm going to go find an agency to put in between so that they can take all this shit. They don't know what's going on. They don't understand. They don't understand the process. They don't understand their problem. They are getting bombarded by everything. So when it comes down to it, we have to focus on process. We have to focus on problem. As soon as we get those two pieces figured out, it makes so much more sense from an ROI standpoint, and you start getting the numbers that I shared with you earlier. Joel: Companies are looking for a consultant, whether that's an agency or a trusted vendor, it's too much. I know I need AI. I know I need programmatic. I know I need this chat bot thing, but I'll know who to go to and what to do exactly. So if you could do that for them- Chad: Those numbers not only lead to a happy client, but a retained client. Yes, it's great to do programmatic, even though they can't even spell the goddamn word. Joel: They can't even spell SEO. Chad: If they know why they're doing it ... yeah, if they know why they're it, how they're doing it, it's so much different, not to mention, it's not just about getting the active candidates in. What do you do with them afterward? You might have the best active solution in the world, what happens afterward? Announcer: This has been the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #RECex #AI #Google #Microsoft #Recruitment #TAtech

Who just raised $100m, has 100m million members in their social employment network and is targeting 70% of the market? Jobcase, that's who... When we traveled to Boston we knew we have to get Fred Goff, Jobcase CEO on the mic. Enjoy! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by Disability Solutions connects jobseekers with disabilities with employers who value diversity and inclusion. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: What's up everybody, welcome to the Beantown addition of The Chad & Cheese Podcast, I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: Today we are lucky enough to be visiting the Headquarters of Jobcase, with CEO Fred Goff. Fred welcome to the podcast, hopefully it won't be the worst decision you've ever made. Fred: Hopefully not, great to be on The Chad & Cheese Show. Thanks for having me. Joel: So give us ... Lot of our listeners do not know you, do not know Jobcase, give us the elevator pitch on sort of you and your background as well as the company's. Fred: Let's do the fun one first, which is the company's. Jobcase is the only social media platform that's just dedicated to empowering people in their work life. We've grown to about 106 million registered members, but probably what's more relevant is 25 million monthly activate uniques. We have about 70 million arrivals a month I think with regard to talent acquisition in Jobcase, so I think Comscore's got us ranked fourth largest in the nation at this point. Fred: So we're pretty active in that ecosystem, but what this company's about, as you've seen today, is really about empowerment. It's about how we can give people one place to keep all their stuff that they own and control and decide where is goes and how we can connect them with a network of other people, that forms a community and that's really the difference about us and how we position. I think the press like to call us LinkedIn for everyone else and we're not necessarily crazy about that. I have a lot of respect for LinkedIn, but it's different. This is about a community, this is about getting you in touch with people that you might not know and how they support you with empathy and how that can empower you to figure out ... If you lean in and take the reins of control, that all these aspects of future of work that might be daunting, could actually work for you. And that comes from a place of empathy, not just a lot of career pathing. Fred: And then the last part of us is we talk about tools to make it easy, we talk about community that empowers you. Then what's our responsibility given that we have that community and all these networked people, then it turns to advocacy. And we think that the turn of us is to advocate for workers in this nation and try to have boardrooms pay a little bit more attention to workers and a little less to shareholders. Joel: And for our international listeners, you are only US based, North American, like give us a idea of your footprint. Fred: Where are we? As of May 29th, 2019, yes but at the point you might be listening to this podcast, no we might be right around the corner. Joel: Ah, so you heard it here first. What geographical location will you be opening up first? Fred: Well that would be premature, but I think that- Joel: I have to ask the questions. Fred: Well, you know, Joel, if we look at what we're trying to achieve, we want to get to a billion members globally. And one of the reasons we want to do that is the power of the network effects allows us to advocate for workers more and we've seen that. I'll give quick example, it's a very micro one, we had 400 people that drive for Uber in Houston, as an example, and this was a while ago. They had one person who started complaining, he got kicked off the Uber platform. And this is a fellow who had now made it his full-time job basically and he was kicked off for an old picture, something ridiculous like that. And in these complaints, we took that conversation and we surfaced it to [Solis 00:03:47], City Manager in Houston, and we said, "[Solis 00:03:49], just so you know, 400 of your drivers are watching this conversation." Joel: Wow. Fred: And within a day, that person was reinstated, his average daily earnings, gave him eight times that, make him whole and that's the first time we realized, the way we think of ourselves, is it's almost a union, right? It's almost like if we could advocate for people, it's got a very positive effect, but from a place of positivity, right? It's a very positive community, it's not one that's out to rabble-rouse, it's the one that's out here to support people. Chad: It feels like the very first time social media really works on the employment side of the house. I mean, we're seeing all the social kind of happen and then they're getting into, you know, quote unquote work. Where did you come from, first, to be able to get to where you are today, because that's a very positive story. Most of the stories that we're hearing are incredibly negative on the social media side of the house. Fred: Yeah, I have a very probably rare story to end up in this space, but I'm thrilled for where I'm at, I mean John Lennon has this saying, "Life is what happens to you while you're making other plans." And I'm thrilled the way life turned out. I actually think I'm fixing my karma for the next life maybe. I was a hedge fund guy. I was a portfolio manager, I managed a billion bucks for BankBoston Robbie Stephens, I got the vision there, the view, that technology should evole asset management as much as other industries. I went back to MIT and tech'd up, got a Masters in the Management of Technology. I studied with my thesis with Clay Christensen, so I'm a big believer in Clay's whole disruptive theory. Fred: And I came out and started a machine learning based hedge fund. And that worked really well until it didn't, so we didn't really see the Lehman bust, we went the cash a few weeks before and so people that were invested in that fund were very happy because we weren't a blow up scenario. But on the other side of that, it was pretty clear that the future was not going to rhyme with the past when you're at the end of 2008. And so we had an existential question with regard to the asset management. Do we do R&D and hunker down for a year until this mother of all black swans blows over, do we split the cash and go home? Fred: And what we did was a third road, we forked the technology, and we took the team and technology that was proficient in high dimension optimization, and in predictive modeling, and machine learning, and we brought it over into the online media space. Instead of constructing portfolios of securities we constructed portfolios of Google, Yahoo, Bing keywords and set up predicting markets, predicting certain behavior and I probably would have thought, if the Chad & Cheese Show could invent podcast first and then be around in 2008, or maybe they were around then, I was ignorant of them, I think back then I probably would've thought I'd do that for a few years. Fred: When we first came out, our first iteration was a little bit more of an Ad Tech play because we were very focused on paying the bills and we moved forward and then we got successful enough that in around 2014, we were able to pause and we were able to say, "Okay, what do we want to do when we grow up?" We had had enough success as a self-funded firm, we had never had a lot of capital raise, it was just what's left in the coffers in 2009, and we grew completely organically, and that's when we really focused in on what today is surfaced as the future of work issues. That wasn't really talked about back in 2014 but that's what we built Jobcase for. Fred: And then we went through a transition of moving from a, what John Doerr might call, a mercenary culture to a missionary culture. Before it was very math-based what we were doing, and in 2014 all the [knock walls 00:07:29] came down of charts and numbers and they all went up about the people that we were serving and we really focused in on how we could help evolve the ecosystem to help individual people. And hopefully that's what you're hearing and seeing today because that's certainly what motivates me and I think our whole team coming into work everyday. Joel: You've been labeled LinkedIn for everyone else, which I think is a little bit short sighted. To me what's interesting about your platform is, you've almost given the keys to the inmates. In other words, your users have this self growing, user generated community where content is put out there for users to help each other with all things job related, right? Like getting work, how to deal with certain issues in the work place, was that on purpose or was that kind of a happy accident as you were building the company? Fred: No, it's very on purpose to have a platform where people help people. At the end of the day, if there's one thing you know about us, it's not what the press wants to call us, we're building a platform where people help people, that's what we're doing. You're going to talk to my CTO after this chat, he's trying to leverage machine learning to help people. Everything is about helping people, right? That's the core north star and from the regard, I think we've always had some humility. When we first were launching Jobcase, even before that, if you were to say, right downstairs, the paradox is what we're building is, in order to build a platform that serves up to a billion people, and really empowers them and then advocates for them, the skillset that requires is extremely advanced. We hire machine learning scientists out of MIT, software engineers, Carnegie Mellon, extreme quantitative skillsets from places that have backgrounds like Princeton and Cornell and all this stuff and we're serving people that have a different level of skillset, 67% of the country with high school degrees and all of that. Fred: And so we have to have the humility that does my team know how to get a job at Walmart? No, you know who the expert in the whole fricking country is at getting a job at Walmart? The lady who got a job there this morning. She knows how, she just did it. So if we could take a digital marketing platform and instead of worry about what ad to serve somebody, worry how can I surface a conversation to the right relevant subgroup of my 25 million active members this month, when someone says, "How do I get a job at Walmart?" If I can surface that on the right channel, to the right person, who's the expert, the one who just got that job, that's how we help. Fred: And that conversation transcends to an acquisition. How do I deal with ageism? How do I ask for a promotion? Am I getting paid enough as a nurse in Cincinnati? There's all sorts of questions on the arc of your work life that we shouldn't presume that I have a blog or I'm going to tell you what to do, I don't know the answer. What I'm going to try to do is hire really brilliant people to write code and put in algorithms to help you get in touch with whoever it is in the country that's the best. And then what's really cool that happens, is communities are forming around this and they don't just get the answer but you get the follow on emotional support and "You can do it," and "I believe in you," and "Don't give up." And that's really the killer app. Chad: What do you do ... That is the killer app, but what do you do to harness that so it doesn't turn into this Facebook thing that you're seeing nothing but Trump stories- Joel: It's anarchy. Chad: I mean, it just yeah, I mean there's so much ... So many of my friends are taking social kind of vacations because it's just too much for them, and it might just be Facebook or who knows what it is, but how do you build this to be able to keep it positive? There's this AI slash human-blend behind it, which is really cool, but how does the policing happen? Fred: That's a great question. I use the metaphor of that Indiana Jones movie, where in the very beginning, you got the big boulder running, he's just barely in front of it, he falls on his knees and he gets up, and he runs through the spiderweb, and he gets ... I think that's kind of where we're at. So we've got a complete control based on the kind of volume that we have and if we slip up, if the vine gets ahead of us, it'd be a problem. One of the first deployments of specific machine learning, that's pretty advanced that we did, had to go to the spammers and scammers. We've got a lot of volume. The first people who figure out where volume is on the internet is not the likely consumer, right? It's not people looking to hire people, it's not that, it's somebody who's trying to trick people. And so we had to do a lot of investment to get those tricksters off and that's a continual battle. Chad: Are you watching Facebook and these other like bigger platforms to see where they're tripping over themselves and say, "Okay, early warning system?" Fred: Yeah, we are, with great humility and appreciation for the difficulty of what they're trying to do. And I think that we have so far succeeded. There's no bullying on our platform, and there's no adjudication. If we see it, we're going to pull it off. And who's deciding that? We have algorithms or we have people that are making judgment calls and right now that's keeping pace. We run a risk that as we break out more and more, we fall behind, but so far, I mean, I think we've got some plans for that, but I don't know I guess all of this is to say, Chad, it's a great question. It's a huge concern, I think we're on top of it for the volume we have today and that we anticipate for the next quarter, it's probably not on top of it for the volume we expect one year from now, so that's what we have to [crosstalk 00:12:53]- Chad: All about scaling. Fred: Yeah. Joel: I want to talk about the war for talent for a second in your own organization. You mentioned your CTO, you mentioned machine learning professionals. We're sitting here at sort of the epicenter of brainiac, you know, east coast, right? Chad: I can see MIT, what is that computer lab- Joel: [crosstalk 00:13:11] MIT, cancer [crosstalk 00:13:12]- Fred: Computer Science Artificial Intelligence Lab, so we're an affiliate of the, it's called CSAIL, but this is where their ... I'll tell you, they'll ask, you know, so there's ... Like two years ago, they have this new thing that came out of one of our, the lady that runs it is Daniela Rus, just brilliant and a friend of ours and she's in the news and you read this and they have like you swallow a pill and this little robot opens up origami style in your stomach and repair a rip in the lining and then of course you excrete out the rest of that little when it folds back up. Joel: The robot, yeah. Fred: So now, you don't have to have any incision at all, you're just swallowing, you got a robot in your belly, I mean the amazing things that are coming out of there is just unreal. And we do collaborative projects with their big data area on things with regard to talent and things with regard to employment and it's also a great place to hire from. So yeah, that's right outside the door. Joel: So the question is, how do you get someone with the opportunity of building robots, nano robots that go into people's stomachs and curing cancer and creating invisible fish and everything else that we've talked about going on here? Fred: Well, Facebook and Google's here too- Joel: And get them to come work for this itty bitty job board company? Fred: Itty bitty job board, you're killing me- Joel: I'm simplifying it. Fred: So allow me to correct. One, we are absolutely not a job board company and with no disrespect to job board companies who offer a great value or social media platform, but- Joel: Forget that part of the question, I was being sarcastic, we do that really well on this show. My point is, they can work on some really interesting problems, how do you get them to take on the problems that are going on here? Fred: Yeah, this is what they care about. I think that we have a very compelling opportunity here. Yes, we pay competitive wages, yes they work with smart people, yes we have a creative environment that has a pretty cool culture I think, but at the end of the day, when you go home as a software engineer or a machine learning person or some version of a quant for lack of better word, data scientist, data analyst, when you leave Jobcase, you know you help people in their normal daily lives. You don't have to guess. They're telling us on the platform. And so I have this little mechanism I do to build empathy when I speak at MIT in front of crowds that I haven't talked to before. There's a lot that know us, and we'll in crowds that don't. And I'll say, "Okay, can you raise your hand if you've gotten a Starbucks," and we're in Boston so the Dunkin', yeah, it's really Dunkin' here, "in the last week? And of course everyone's hand goes up. And say, "Now keep your hand up if you know how that barista or cashier got their job or what they're doing next," and of course all the hands go down and we say, "Well, that's why you don't know us." Fred: And what I see happening in this room, guys, is it's a really interesting thing, it's never failed. After I say this, I lose about a third of the audience and you see their head tilt about 30 degrees and you realize in that moment they're pondering. They haven't ever thought about that question. Everyone's really busy. It's not that everyone's jerks. Everyone's busy. Everyone's got their own problems, their own economic issues, their own career paths, their own personal issues. They're just busy and they don't stop to consider the majority of people in this country, the majority of households that don't have enough savings to cover an unexpected $500 expense, that are sitting across from them, handing them their cup that says Linda on it or whatever at Starbucks. And you realize in that moment they're like, "Holy crap, what is the rest of this?" Fred: And it's not the rest, it's not niche, it's like 70% of this country, right? And so it's- Chad: The engine of this company, or this [crosstalk 00:16:37]- Fred: Yeah, company engine, right? And so when you say, "Now I've got an opportunity for you to actually help these people," and all of these things, AI automation, 1099 instead of W-2, free agency problem, and the follow on issues, wage stagnation, and all of these issues on the future of work, that can be daunting, that people are concerned about. When we say, "Look, if you come here," we're not only addressing that problem, we're harnessing it and if we can kind of democratize big data ... There's one version of our story where we're a complement not to LinkedIn, to Workday, right? I think Aneel Bhursi is changing the face and really accelerating how HR and corporate America is evolving, but he is finding really cool, actionable insights in big data and giving them to Brian Moynihan, CEO of Bank of American, so Brian can make better decisions for his shareholders and his employees about their talent road maps. Fred: And we're saying, "What if we took those actionable insights and gave them to each individual teller," because in today's world, his teller is going to go to Citizens Bank, maybe Wells Fargo, and they might come back to Bank of America, so they have to take that with them. So talent acquisition, when I go across the street to MIT or others, and we give them the opportunity to empowering the majority people in this country, it's incredibly rewarding, it kind of closes itself. Chad: So what you just talked about was, being able to provide candidates their data, because it's their data in a system instead of it being in some disparate system of a company that they worked for 10 years ago, right? So they have information that is carried forward with them. Does that happen in Jobcase today, is that future kind of forward, what is the system doing? Fred: It's Jobcase today and our whole thesis is, you need a place to keep your information, right? So it's not just a profile, which of course is open access, anybody listening to this right now, feel free to go on Jobcase and you can reach out and contact anybody, we're not going to stand in the way of that, we're here to support that and facilitate that. You want to work with my data scientists to do it a more volume way, sure give us a call, but you can do it on your own. And so when we think about that, that's just like a resume or profile. What's important is the notion that our grandfathers used to have or maybe our fathers if we're a certain age, which is an employee folder that goes with you. Fred: And so the issue today is, if we know that the average 25 year old has had seven jobs and if we know further that a whole bunch of people are stitching together jobs during the same week, let alone year to year, we need a place for them to aggregate all the feedback. That's going to start to fix away it's stagnation problem. One of the attributes about wage stagnation is, in the past if you moved from one job to another within an organization, you have an employee folder to go with you that says you proved yourself, you're growing skills, you're being ushered in. But if you're going to go from Dunkin', to Starbucks, to Marriott, and job to job without a folder with you, you've got to reprove yourself again and again and again. Fred: So if we can surface that, through Jobcase Praises, if we can surface that through reviews where we can hold and you bring with you, and then expose that as you determine, for other employers to find, we think we can help accelerate career paths that way. And so yes, we do that today. What we need to do more of is bridge partnerships with others so they can capture this more easily and so that's what we got to get on top of. Chad: So we've talked about this in the like Uber style for work landscape moving forward where, I mean, once again I mean you can rate your Uber driver but your Uber driver can rate you. The same thing, flipping over into somebody who's cooking a steak or working at a hotel or even doing product development for an organization, right? So I mean it doesn't have to be just a barista, it can be a software developer for goodness sake, so to me it sounds like you guys are building and correct me if I'm wrong, more of an Uberization, bad verbiage sorry, or Jobcase -zation whatever, of the journey of somebody's career overall. Fred: In giving it to that individual person to curate and take care of, right? So that's the real key. Chad: But making it easy because humans don't do that very well. Fred: Yeah, so we have to make it easy for people to praise you, we have to make it easy for you to bring with you, have to make it easy for you to hit a button and say, "I want someone else to have it." If we have a Jobcaser that wants to have their information given to somebody that others might perceive as our competitors, I don't think of companies in the talent acquisition space as competitors. Anybody who's going to help our members on a career path is a partner, right? But other people seem to. So if they want to give it to Ian at ZipRecruiter and make sure they have the information, they want to give it to Indeed, they want to give it to LinkedIn, power to them. Let's make sure we can make that easy to happen. That's a view of where we are. That's not where we get our economics, that's our responsibility to the individual person in our community and I think which will help the ecosystem as we move forward and like it or not, you have to take the reigns of control in your own hands. Fred: At the end of the day, Jobcase was built for a person who believes in these things. They care about others, they know they got to drive their own career, and they believe workers should be treated as well as shareholders. If you believe in those three things, you're a Jobcaser. Okay. If you're a PHD, a mad software engineer, enterprise salesperson, or a front line at McDonald's, you're a Jobcaser if you believe in those three things. Chad: Fred, last question. I'm lucky enough to get it. Can you give us an example of a client success story? How are they using Jobcase today to fill their ranks within their organization because they could be high volume, they could possibly not be a high volume type of client. What's the success story? How do they use Jobcase? Fred: So there's a large e-tailer who's name I probably should check before I say, but let's say there's a large e-tailer that we're pretty close with and- Chad: (cough) Amazon! (cough) Fred: ... large e-tailer and they have a hiring need of different periods and one of our products is event promotion or event management and this is not about ... When you try to get into events, for if a company that is hiring at scale, so it could be a local pizza shop that wants to open up a new shop and they're hiring 30 people at once, right? We see that at Wegmans, a local grocery chain in the east coast or it can be a Home Depot opening up a new one, you know, events are a wonderful way to get a whole bunch of talent at one time to show up. But if you're going to do it very effectively, it's not just about the active job seeker, you can't just post it as a job post. What we're able to do in solving this problem, there was a hard to fill place, they were having an issue staffing it, and said, "We would like to do a promotion, we need to hire like dozens of people at once." Chad: Right. Fred: What we're able to do is just about community, right? It's about our members. So it's not about who's on the site searching, and it's about our knowledge of our members. So we're able to say, "Okay, how many of our members live within five or 10 miles?" And let's say that's about 20,000 in the case I'm thinking of. And how many of our members that live within five or 10 miles of this location also have searched for a similar job in the past at any point of their registration with Jobcase? We'll let's say that's down to about like 7,000. And of those, how many have searched for a job anytime in the last two to four months so they have little bit of an itch, doesn't mean they're active today, but I know that they're open to a new opportunity? And so that might be about half of them, so you got about 3,000. Fred: No they are our members. We know which ones prefer messaging through SMS, or through Facebook, or through Google retargeting, or through email, and so we get the message on the channel they'd like about the opportunity of working at this company. Not the job, that's not what I think is important to people. I think now, I think that's overplayed, job descriptions. It's about who am I going to work for? What's the local culture of where I'm at? And it really is about local culture, right? So we've indexed 27 million locations people work, like Bank of America has 5,300 locations, Home Depot has 2,300 locations. And anybody who's been to a Bank of America in midtown Manhattan versus Bank of America in Weston, Massachusetts, knows they are very different cultures, right? So it's not better or worse, it's just different. Fred: So an individual person might want to assess that. So we surfaced the local culture, we get that information to them about the event and say it's around the corner, we have some very clever ways of making sure we reach and schedule, and then we get lines out the door and we get the hiring done. Now, there's one other aspect to that. So in that case, Chad, we have a very happy, successful client, they had an event, we promoted to people that they didn't have to wait to search to look for this, we prompted the attention, we moved people from being inactive to active with something that was relevant to them. But here's what's important and different I think about us. In addition to going members, not clicks, it's also about how we follow up on the data side. Fred: When my team goes back on data, we want to know that very difficult question everybody probably listening to you wants which is attribution, all this, but our view is kind of different where we're coming from. I have now contacted all of my members in this area that we went through that funnel. I'm member first, right, and when I say I'm, it's not Fred Goff it's Jobcase. Jobcase is member first so we want to know, now that these people showed up, did you process those applications? Did you hire them? If you did in this process, that's great. If there was something that broke down, we have to fix this. We're advocates for our members. Did we talk to the wrong people? Were they not a fit for you? If so, I don't want to bug people that aren't a fit for you. We need to learn about that. Fred: Did you not follow through on them? Well hold on here, these are my members we introduced you. And I think the trick that we should all do when we think about talent acquisition is go through the mental exercise, even if it's a high volume play, of this is my neighbor I introduced to you. How were they treated and how do you feel about that? Because if you know somebody that was hiring and you said, "Oh, my neighbor Joe's going to call you," and if Joe calls back and said, "He said he would never hire me," or if he said, "I still waiting to hear from him, he hasn't done anything," you'd be a little miffed. Chad: Yeah. Fred: Okay, that's the Jobcase view, we want to find the data, not to prove any attribution about pay me more, whatever, that's not our focus. Our focus is members and in fact when we hire sales people, if you were to go down and talk to my sales people and say, "Who do you work for?" They would say, "We work for our members, we're here to get our members good opportunities." That's what we're doing. Chad: It's all about experience. Fred: Yeah, and to follow through. And so, by the way, then we have this large e-tailer extremely satisfied with the level of talent they had coming out the door because we accessed a pool that wasn't readily available through other sources. Joel: I think I heard him say, "Job descriptions are dead," in that process. Chad: Yeah, well I mean they suck and I think everybody knows they suck so I mean this is more of an opportunity and culture where people are ... It sounds like aligning and focused more on that, like more purpose driven. Fred: I think where we're heading is, for the most part, and there's exceptions, for the most part, if you don't know what the job is that you're applying to by the title and a couple lines, then you're probably not right for that job, right? Do we really have to go through a paragraph explaining what a cashier is, do we really have to say, "I really want somebody who works hard," and all this stuff. I mean it's just noise. Fred: Now there are occasions we need to clarify, especially as we have multiple organizations and people don't align job titles and et cetera, but these long paragraphs, we all know it's not getting read. What would get read is not what's it like to be whatever, an accounting person at a pizza chain in western Massachusetts versus an accounting person at a burger chain in say Needham, right? What we want to know is what's it like to work for your company versus another? I get what accounting is, I get what this is, what's it like there, how do you treat me? Fred: So we think it's about that local talent brand that we want to surface and that's what members are going to care about. Now, obviously, there's exceptions, but for the most part, you want to focus on what's it like to work for your company, what are you offering more than 24 bullets on the different tasks you want on some job title, right? Joel: Well, Fred, thanks for sitting down with us today, we know you're a busy guy, we appreciate it. For our listeners who want to know more about Jobcase, where would you send them? Fred: Come to jobcase.com, be part of the community, this is a free, open access social media site. It's about empowering people and it's for everybody. 15% of our members have college degrees and either you have a question about work, how to get a promotion, how to deal with a issue, discrimination, how to get a new job, or you are somebody who can provide answers. If you want to come to a place of empathy that's trying to do positivity, social media right, and if you know that the fruits of that labor are going to be us advocating for the workers in boardrooms, not just shareholders, come be a part of our community. Joel: Always be closing and we out. Chad: We out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen, thanks for listening to my stepdad The Chad and his goofy friend, Cheese. You've been listening to The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive, shiny gold pair that are extra because well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Jobcase #CEO #social #bluecollar #SkilledWorkers #jobs #LIVE

Woah! Another BIG week with BIG news. - Zip launches a new product - Indeed buys an Uber for Jobs (Syft) - AllyO receives mad stacks - LinkedIn doubles down on tracking with Drawbridge - Make Dice Techie Again? and we find time to dog Generation Z while we're at it. Enjoy and show Sovren, JobAdx and Canvas some love! (Static imported from Belgium) PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: It's on baby. Welcome to the Cross Atlantic edition of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman coming at you from Ghent Belgium, a city I didn't even know existed. Joining me is Chad straight out of Columbus, Indiana. Sowash. Chad: That's right. Joel: This week we got breaking news out of ZipRecruiter. Indeed continues to slide into their future. Chatbot continue to make it rain and much more meat on that bone. It's a fat free episode. I can feel the weight coming off right now. We'll be right back after this word from our friends at Canvas. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while canvas spot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiters' success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io, get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: So dude, you are like in the place where beer reigns supreme? Joel: Yes, I am in beer heaven. I got walks outside my room making beer. Chad: I am so envious right now/ Joel: And I'm already jet lag drunk, so I'm going to be in bad shape in about five hours. But I have to do a keynote tomorrow so I can't get too messed up, which I guess should lead to our first shout out. Shout out to the E-recruitment Congress. I'm over here in Europe, congress is at Ghent this year. I'm going to be talking Google for jobs and SCO and- Chad: Man, you really pull the wool over their eyes. Keynoting. Are you shitting me? Oh my God. Joel: There are like 10 keynotes, so let's not point that a lot. I think that's how they do it here in Belgium. Everybody feels special. Chad: Nice. Well, that's not a bad thing, to make sure that your people feel special. A big shout out to Fred Goff Garrett, Jen and the rest of the Jobcase over in Cambridge/ Boston, Massachusetts. Our interview with Fred will be coming out soon, but we had a blast. Baseball, Bourbon and a bunch of fun industry conversation. Joel: Yeah. And I'm still trying to get the tootsie rolls and weed out of my nose from walking the streets of Cambridge. How does that combination... there's a tootsie roll factory right in Cambridge and everybody's getting high, awesome. Okay. Chad: Yeah. And people are smoking weed and... yeah. Okay. Shout out to Josef and the gang at Comeet. Give us some love over the pod that we had with Nathan from AIA where we asked the question, who is making the recruitment process so goddamn hard. They liked that question so much, they actually gave us props and they wrote an entire article around it, so thanks guys. Appreciate it. Joel: Can I throw out an odd shutout. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I know we have rules for shout outs now, but we don't have that many. I want to shout out to the eight Spelling Bee winners from the American Spelling Bee. Millennials have gone awry and I don't know what generation, I guess generations Z , they're even having eight winners for the fricking Spelling Bee. The world is over. Chad: Yeah. Like they couldn't have pulled out another fucking dictionary and then just went to pages and wherever their finger landed, that was the next word, right? Come on. They ran out of words. Are you kidding me? Joel: Yeah. If your test is so lame that you have eight winners, go to another language or something. Chad: Yeah, it's a little bit much. A little shout out to Jim Stroud for pitching in and doing some shreds for us. He said, "Hey man, do you care if I do some shreds, some breaking news." Bring it on man. Everybody loves a little Jim Stroud in their day. Joel: Yeah. It's like we're a band and he wanted to come over and play some guitar with us. Chad: I love it. Joel: We're going to be able to shred. Chad: Jim Loves it. Job more doctor, he enjoyed my shum rant and it seems that Tengai is still trolling us. So you gotta love it. New Product. Everybody's either going fucking crazy because, oh my god, it's a robot doing recruiting or some are saying, oh hey, it's cool, but there's really no middle ground right now. And while all that's happening, Tengai, the robot is trolling us. Joel: Such an asshole. Chad: It's hilarious. It's good stuff. Joel: And by the way, the Tengai folks, when you have a product that is one side or the other, you're probably onto something good. So keep hacking at it, don't listen to the haters. Keep doing what you're doing. Chad: Yeah. Fuck them, do your thing. Jumping into events, we talked about Boston a little bit. We're going to talk Boston again because we're coming back to Boston for Transform. This Nash Quash show, we're going to have a totally dope panel discussion, and believe it or not, Holland Dombeck, who's a listener, and also works over at Delta Airlines and in the employer branding... I think she's like one of the big brand heads over there. She's going to be joining us on the panel, so it should be a blast. Joel: Pretty sure our panels will never be described as dope by anyone. Chad: Yeah. I stole that word from Elena over at Skill Scout. I thought it sounded dope, so why not use it, right? Joel: Dope was dope before Elena was born, so I don't want to hear that bullshit. Chad: There'll be a Job Gate in Denver lurking in the shadows while Julie Presents. So in June, if you're going to be at Job Gate, look for me. Joel: By the way, Chad will be the one in the Chad and Cheese T-shirt. So look for him there. Chad: RecFest is sold out. 3000 attendees strong, sold out, and we're also doing something incredibly cool. We've cooked up something with the team over at Talent Nexus. Joel: We're not talking about it yet, are we? Chad: We're just teasing it. We've got some really cool shit that's happening, doing some videos and whatnot. But man, I can't wait. It is going to be amazing. Five fucking stages, and we're headlining actually, we're the last show to go on. Everybody's going to have a few beers in them by then, which is going to be perfect for our show. Joel: We're way more entertaining when everyone's drunk- Chad: Goddamn straight. Joel: Wow, sold out. So we can't even tell people, get that ticket now, because tickets are gone. Chad: Tickets are gone, man. And while we're there, hopefully we'll still have some crazy awesome T-shirts available. So if we are at an event and you're there, come ask us for a T-shirt, who knows, we might have one. And then while you're at it, hop over to emissary.ai because if you're not using a texting platform to recruit, you just don't. Emissary.ai. On to the topics. Joel: Let's do this. AllyO, making it rain. Chad: Yes. The end to end recruiter 45 million in series B, they're up to $64 million overall. Joel: Yeah. I think that's now officially more than Maya. Chad: Yeah, it is. Joel: They're the most funded Chatbot... although they will tell you they're an end to end recruiting solution. Chatbots are exceeding my wildest expectations for valuations. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I was thinking maybe 10 million for some of these Chatbots, but they're going to be pushing a hundred, 200 million, acquisition. [crosstalk 00:08:38] Chad: With that kind of money, the valuation on it. So Sapphire Ventures actually put out on their blog that they believe AllyO is the perfect example of what the value of real AI is and their whole focus... and this is pretty much what the rest of the industry should be talking about too, is getting rid of all these boring repetitive tasks that recruiters don't need to do. And this is what we talked about at Jobcase, we had a great question in our Q and A, this actually makes the process more human and it sounds weird, but using technology to do all these bullshit tasks gives human beings more time to actually do a better job in connecting with the humans. So I think not only investors are starting to understand this, I also believe that the talent acquisition side and obviously staffing and RPO, they get it. Joel: Yeah. Everything that we hear is that job seekers like these things, recruiters, and companies like these things. With the money that's being spent on these businesses, it's going to be a little war, it's going to be a little race for Chatbot. Chad: Supremacy. Joel: Someone high up at Chatbot texted me soon after this announcement was out with just money, money, money was the text message that I got. And it's true, there's going to be money flowing, people are going to get in this game that haven't before, companies, ATS, they're going to be building these things. It's going to be a war for chatbot's supremacy. Chad: Yeah. And don't forget they were on our death match stage in New Orleans. We talked to Sir Hill, we've been talking to these guys for a while and he expects that the company's candidate matching suite will be used by 15% of Americans in 2020. And this got to me because it was like, okay, so they're actually now starting to say candidate matching, which I think is odd because the AllyO that we know is more of like a screen to match than actual like AI matching. Like the Opening.ios or the Uncommons or the HiringSolved. It sounds like they're starting to pull some of the other vernacular, the candidate matching in, but I don't really believe that they have an algorithm that does it like in Opening.io, who obviously just one death match in Europe, by the way. Joel: Yup. Well, with $45 million in the bank now, maybe they can. Chad: I think that would be a bad decision, but who knows. I think at this point that hasn't changed. And we'll get somebody, we'll actually get a little bit of a conversation going with those guys to see what they mean by that, but I'm interpreting it as the process methodology that they have in place from a screening standpoint gives better matches. It's not a matching technology, it's a screening to match technology. So that's what I'm going to go with right out of the gate, but we should definitely follow up with the guys on that one. Joel: Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were a firing squad interview too, weren't they? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. You're putting yourself out there when you're on the firing squad. I remember these two guys, I guess that was two years ago. They were just these two geeky dudes from Google launching this little company with a, let's be honest, not a great name- Chad: Right. Joel: AllyO. And look at them now. So congrats to those guys. It's always fun to watch these little companies grow and become something significant. Chad: Yeah. And they've got a great team too, so congratulations everybody and keep kicking ass. Stay focused and let's see what happens. Joel: Yeah. And by the way, if you're looking for a job, all these Chatbots are hiring like crazy. So if you're unhappy with your job in the vendor space, fresh up that resume and send it to all the Chatbot providers because they're all hiring- Chad: Another company that's been hiring is one that we've known for a while, and they're usually on the podcast waves, is ZipRecruiter. They have a new product that they've put out. Joel: Nice transition. I like that. By the way, this is going to be pretty much breaking news by the time you listen to this for the show. I don't know exactly how to feel about this, but basically they've announced the quote unquote first of its kind solution that lets job seekers opt in to get recruited by employers across every industry in experienced level. So basically companies see talent that they like, they say, I want to talk to you, and then the job seeker decides, okay, I'm going to flip the switch as well and we're going to have a conversation. It almost sounds like a dating app. I won't call it Tinder for jobs because I hate that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I don't know if it's that significant or how cool it is, maybe I need to actually see it to be that impressed by it. Chad: It's a resume database. That's what it is. Because really the only way that you could get to candidates before was to be able to post a job, and then their magic algorithm actually did the outreach to see if individuals were interested. And then those interested individuals would obviously apply for those jobs. You couldn't go into a candidate database. So this is really a resume database on steroids to an extent, and talking about matching steroids, right? But here's the thing, it's a smart resume database, totally get it, but it's hire by Google's candidate surfacing tool. That's what it is. It's Opening.io, t's Uncommon, it's HiringSolved, it's all of those matching algorithms. Joel: Right. And according to COE and Siegel, it's the best algorithm in the world. Screw you Google. Chad: And it could be, but the thing is, in talent acquisition, staffing, RPO, the entire industry needs to understand that this tech is already available and you should be using it against your resume database today. And if you want to go further, which most should, you should also look at a candidate ID for Nurturing, who was also on death match by the way. But there's so many pieces of technology that are out there that can help you leverage the money you've already spent, the candidates you've already pulled together, the silver medalists who are probably now gold medalists that you need to connect with. This from my standpoint, I think is brilliant from Zip. Zip, great job. It's amazing. But what this should do to the rest of the industry is validate, you should be doing matching within your applicant tracking systems today. And if these other companies don't have, if the zips or the Monsters or the career voters don't have this type of matching algorithm, they're not fucking worth your time. Joel: I won't go as far as to say brilliant, but I think it's a solid move by them. I think the AI component that we've been hearing about is coming to fruition. The head of product said this was three years in the making, so there clearly focused and working on this diligently. And I also think it's significant because it is a definite maturation from the part-time hourly folks to a more enterprise full-time employee solution. So to me those are the two significant things that I got out of the new product announcement. Chad: Yeah. I totally dig it, good job guys. This again should signal to the rest of the industry that... take a look at some of the verbiage that they're using. They're not talking about this as a resume database, a better matching algorithm, but that's what it is. That's all available to us today. You should be looking for these and all the different types of tools that you're trying to leverage. Joel: While we anxiously await the IPO announcement from ZipRecruiter, let's hear a word from a JobAdX and we'll talk about Indeed and LinkedIn. JobAdX: Finding the right fit is important when you're deciding on shoes for a long day at the trade show, when you're picking the right podcast for your commute, and most importantly, when you're looking for the right candidate. With JobAdX, you can attract more relevant, engaged candidates to your jobs by harnessing the best in ad tech targeting. From predictive industry analysis and keyword, click data to premium first page placement and reducing redundant applications. JobAdX: Our candidate targeting technology ensures that you're reaching talent that is interested in working with you as you are with them. Now within ad video and multimedia, you can share your employer brand story and company culture with job seekers so they can visualize themselves in your office. All hands meeting or ax throwing team building adventure, all without navigating away from your job posting. Increased engagement makes for fewer steps between job seeker and new team member. Ready to ramp up your job advertising campaigns with the best in ad tech, visit our new website at www.jobadx.com. That's J-O-B-A-D-X.com. Attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Joel: Oh, I hate it when we're right. Indeed getting closer and closer to that staffing business that we've been predicting. Chad: Yeah, I don't see this as a staffing play. It's a total tech play, dude. Joel: Enlighten me, please. Chad: It's a total tech play. So what we're looking at here, which I think is pretty awesome and very smart from Indeed standpoint, it's an Uber for jobs. It's a UK play right now, but what they can do with it is pretty amazing because this is what we've been talking about for, shit, probably 18 months, maybe two years now, is can we take technology and use it instead of, in place of, a staffing agency. So I think what we're seeing is possibly the evolution in some markets of some of these smaller high volume types of jobs going away from the prospect of staffing and into an Uber like platform like this. Now this is just in the UK, and to be able to cross that pond in the US to make this work over here, it's going to take a lot of fucking work. I don't care how much data Indeed has, it's going to take a lot of work. Joel: You may have convinced me. So they're definitely a temporary agency. The PR out of this was quote, Syft is one of the best temp agencies and is making waves in the world of work. And now they go on to talk about connecting employers and job seekers across the UK with a staffing app temporary. So they're definitely at its core staffing agency, which I guess all UK employment sites or companies are. So okay, I can be convinced that this is a tech play. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Indeed has a pretty high opinion of itself technologically, so to buy someone for technology reasons is interesting. The foothold in the UK I do think is significant from these guys, but Indeed doesn't make a lot of acquisitions, at least not ones that they promote. And this was one that they really got out in front of it and promoted, so they think that it's pretty serious and important. So I guess let's continue to watch and see what comes out of it. Chad: Yeah. I think one of the reasons why you see this pitched as a temp staffing kind of play is because that's what people know, so it's easier to parallel up against that. But now people are starting to understand that Uber is really just a temp agency for drivers. I need a driver, I need it now, it's on demand, the same kind of thing. You're looking for somebody who needs to fill some shifts for next week or maybe later today. I don't want to screw with payroll and admin on this, I'll just go to Syft and if these individuals do incredibly well, I give them great reviews and I can add them to my team. I'm assuming that'll happen on the other side too, because if the talent didn't like the experience that they had, they could say fuck you and give you a one star, and that would just pretty much disengaged from any further activity. Joel: So it is basically a staffing platform. You said Uber for work, and we've seen other platforms like this, so- Chad: Yeah. Joel: Indeed will eventually, they'll grow this brand as an Uber for placements and temporary workers or grow it into the Indeed products, big picture wise. I'm trying to think through this, but yeah. Okay. I wasn't super interested in this, but you've gotten me sort of interested. Chad: Yeah, it's a total tech play dude. And we've been talking about it. I think that if staffing, especially on the high volume side evolves, this is where it's going to evolve, and I think it's very smart for Indeed to be able to pick up in an area that already has a foothold, Syft, in the UK, at least that's the way it sounds, that they have somewhat of a foothold, to be able to grow that. The hard part is being able to get that to translate over to the US. That'll be interesting to watch, when they do it and if they do it. Joel: We need to see if Syft representatives are going to be at RecFest this year. Maybe we can corner them and get an interview with them. That would be- Chad: Yeah. I'm making a note right now to see if we can hone them in. Joel: Yeah, right. If you can combine tech and staffing business in this way, that's interesting. Chad: Yeah. And something else that's interesting, LinkedIn acquires Drawbridge, which is a mobile marketing cross acquisition technology. This is interesting from my standpoint because, wow, Google and Facebook dial down their tracking on candidates and people, it looks like LinkedIn is dialing it up a notch or maybe 10. Joel: Yeah. So this is being able to track people essentially across multiple platforms- Chad: Yeah. Joel: Your iPad, your phone, your desktop, who knows what other devices they can track you across, and then target advertising based on your behavior and what you do. Obviously that's interesting on many levels, and I think the founder was Mob-ad. The founder of Mob-ad, which 10 years ago was a super hot mobile advertising platform, which then grew into other devices. What I did find interesting though is they, essentially it looks like shutdown their whole European operation because of GDPR. So I'm not sure if you believe GDPR is coming to the world, how impactful this technology is, but if you believe that it's not necessarily going to come to places like America or Asia, then this kind of technology helps boost your ad platform significantly. And let's be honest, anyone who advertises on Facebook, Google and LinkedIn knows that LinkedIn is way too expensive and also a little bit not quite up to par with those other players. Chad: Right. So from LinkedIn standpoint, I agree the GDPR piece, not to mention next year coming to California, coming to a state near you, is GDPR like types of compliance measures that you're going to have to focus on. And I think LinkedIn is already doing that. They are way too big and they are way too widespread not to already be doing that. So to be able to bring in Drawbridge and say, okay, we already have a plan in place to be able to check these boxes, I think that's where they're at. So I don't think that's an issue for LinkedIn. To be able to get the cross device attribution is an issue for LinkedIn, and you're right, if they can't provide cross device attribution now and they're charging so much, it's like you can't deliver or even start to understand what the ROI looks like, right. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So I think it's a good move. We'll see how it plays out. Joel: Yeah. And don't forget recently we talked about Chrome having a function that tells you how you're being tracked and who's tracking you. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So that could be a real negative for businesses like this. Who knows, maybe Drawbridge saw the writing on the wall and discounted the price to the point where it was a no brainer for LinkedIn. Maybe they got some good talent out of the deal as well. Chad: Oh, they saw the writing. They pulled out of the UK because of the GDPR. They had an oh fuck moment and LinkedIn's like, hey, come here. No, don't worry. We've got that figured out, here's pennies on the dollar big guy. Give me that shit and let's go. Joel: Here's a cheque, you write a number on it and we'll see if it matches ours. Chad: Nice. Joel: Someone who's not worried about such issues, let's hear from sponsor Sovren, and we'll end the show on Dice of all people. Chad: A laughable note. Sovren: Sovren AI Matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produce them, and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI Matching, visit sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com Chad: Let's hope that Dice has actually hooked up with Sovren for this new product. Joel: Because quote from our Zeal CEO and president, it's another step demonstrating Dice's commitment to developing best in class matching algorithms to make recruiting top candidates easier. Yes, the trendsetters of Dice continue to pull out all the stops and have given us it's big style matching from 2008. We're very excited. Chad: This again I believe is going to become table stakes. We just saw the new product from Zip, which is matching, and that's what Zip's whole platform is predicated on that matching algorithm. Being able to know what good looks like, what that qualified individual looks like. The big question is, does Dice, are they developing this themselves? If they are, that's probably a mistake because there are many other matching algorithms that are out there that I'm sure are light years ahead of what these guys can do. Is it a Sovren, did they partner with a company like Opening.io or HiringSolved or Uncommon. Chad: We're talking about matching a lot this episode, but it's getting to be incredibly important that companies understand and these vendors understand that they become the brains behind the brands that are out there. They don't have to have that big brand that everybody says, hey, I want that matching software. They have to be the brains and the algorithms behind it, which I think Sovren, from my standpoint, has done an amazing job doing because nobody really knows who Sovren is. Unless you're obviously a listener of this podcast then you obviously know who they are, but they're incredibly stealthy and they're not focused really on their brand unless they can provide the brains or the parsing that your technology needs. Joel: Yeah. The press release on this pulls out all the buzz words, automation, intelligent automation, unconscious bias, which is becoming a very hot product, I guess. Chad: Yes. Joel: So that didn't surprise me at all. A quick review of what this thing does according to the release, it goes beyond traditional keyword matching by looking at job in the candidate data whereby the best match allows recruiters to sort applicants by match within five classification levels. I'm not sure if that's good or not. While many competitive services offer only one or two levels of classification. Well, there you go. There's the clarification. Chad: Wow. Joel: Learns by leveraging the input and expertise of tech recruiters, HR professionals, tech professionals and tech hiring managers, they got to include everyone there, to continuously improve the outcomes of its match machine learning algorithm. This comes straight out of Monster's acquisition of talent bed. You could have basically put a lot of those same features. Chad: Yes. And that's the problem, it's learning from people, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: And if it's learning from people the intelligent automation results in better matches and removes unconscious bias, how the fuck is it removing unconscious bias if it's actually learning biased from people? That's the big question that most of these companies are going to have to answer and defend right out of the gate. Okay, if you're learning from my people who we already know our bias because we're humans, how are you going to take the bias out? Because from what I'm reading here, all you're doing is putting bias in to the algorithm. Joel: Yup. Everyone who's doing this is grappling with this issue of, if humans are making the hiring decisions, the algorithms are going to act accordingly and there's going to be bias over time. There may not be that much initially, but over time... and Amazon I think learned this through their mistake is that bias is going to creep in as long as humans are involved, it's going to be a very challenging problem to solve. Chad: And here's an important announcement to the recruitment industry. This is becoming an arms race. Let's just get this straight, you're looking at Chatbots matching algorithms and you need these things in your core products, whether their applicant tracking systems are CRMs or RMPs, whatever they are, you need these things to be able to have that differentiator. You can see this from Dice trying to do this as a job board, Zip is trying to do this as a job board. You also need to have this in your core systems. These need to be table stakes. So if you're in town acquisition, these are the things you should be asking for. Chad: If you are a vendor and you think you can develop these things, number one, you're probably stupid. You should look at partnering with many of these different organizations that are out there to make it faster, quicker, cheaper, and then take a look at what iCIMS and Jobvite did. They said, "Hey, look, this does work. We're going to go ahead and acquire that organization." It seems like the recipe is out there and most companies don't understand, even the startups in some cases, this is an arms race. Who are you going to team up with to be able to enter this arms race? Joel: What I think is cool is the consumers in our space. The employers for the most part are becoming smarter than they used to be, if that makes sense. They're pushing vendors quicker, they're asking tougher questions, they're making them tackle these issues and challenges. And I think that's a great thing because our industry changes when customers raise their voice and ask for these things. Chad: They're listening to Chad and Cheese. That's what's happening. Joel: That's exactly right. And I have a message for recruiters as well. I think that was what your message was. Chad: Yeah. Pirate: Yee bee poo without Talroo. Chad: We're out. Joel: We're out. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to checkout our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more visit chadcheese.com. #Linkedn #ZipRecruiter #Indeed #AllyO #Dice #chatbots #Matching

What do you do after raising $100 million? Bring Chad & Cheese in for a lunch-and-learn with your employees, of course. What could go wrong? Enjoy this, um, Jobcase exclusive. CHIRP CHIRP?!? PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions' clients are changing the lives of people with disabilities, including veterans with service related disabilities. Chad: While visiting Jobcase HQ in Cambridge, Mass, Fred Goff, Jobcase CEO and all around smart guy, lured Joel and I into a lunch and learn session about, well about us, but mainly about the Chad and Cheese entrepreneurial story, complete with some Q&A at the end. Enjoy, after this word from Jobcase. Joel: Yo Chad, got a question for you. Chad: Okay. Joel: Say I'm looking to hire hourly workers for hard to fill jobs, where should I go? Chad: Easy, Jobcase. Joel: Okay. All right. Now let's say I've tried the job boards and all I'm getting is clicks, and what I really want are qualified candidates, actual people, where should I go? Chad: Dude, Jobcase. Joel: Now, what if I want the team who is helping me with all this sourcing to be really, really, really smart? Before you answer, keep in mind I'm talking MENSA smart, like MIT affiliated data scientists and people who are at the forefront of machine learning. Who you got? Chad: Oh my god dude, it's Jobcase. Jobcase. Look, with 100 million members in their community active and passive job seekers, a huge team of data scientists who are experts at targeting and connecting employers with the right candidates, the answer is always going to be Jobcase. Joel: I dig it. I'm picking up what you're putting down, but what if- Chad: Hard stop. Jobcase. See for yourself why the answer always comes back to Jobcase for all your hiring needs. Learn more at Jobcase.com/hire. That's Jobcase.com/hire. Joel: Jobcase. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Fred: Guys, why don't you start by helping me fill in your biographies, your professional biographies better than I did? Then after we hear about each of you, if you could talk about the journey on building the Chad and Cheese Show. Chad: You first. Joel: I don't know how far you want me to go back. Fred: Kindergarten. Joel: Kindergarten. Yeah, my first entrepreneurial story is I was a big Star Wars geek as a kid, and my parents wouldn't buy me the figurines. I know we're all old enough to remember these figurines. There was a golf course near our house, so I went and gathered aluminum cans in these big garbage bags, and I would recycle them to the point where I would get enough money to buy Star Wars figures. Joel: Later on in high school, during lunch breaks I would go buy gum at like a penny a piece, and I would go sell them at school for 25 cents a piece. I got in the job board space in '97, '98, around the time this guy did. We were at opposing job boards. Did that till around 2005, and I'd always been entrepreneurial, and I knew that I was at an age where it was time to kind of shit or get off the pot, if you will. Sorry, we have some high schoolers in the audience, so I'll try to keep it to shit and damn and stuff. Fred: They might have heard it before. Joel: Yeah, you're their dad. Fred: Yeah. Not all of them. Joel: Not all of them, yes. Not all the kids. SEO was big at the time. I was a marketer and I had learned that in the process, and so I started an SEO business for HR, it was called HR SEO. The goal was to help companies leverage, if I'm a company in Milwaukee, I would rank for Milwaukee jobs, et cetera. It sort of morphed into helping vendors market themselves and getting background check companies to rank for background checks, and job boards to rank. Joel: Started a blog at the time called Cheezhead, and I learned that the more I blogged, the more business I got. This was sort of my first content marketing education, where you create good content, you get people to look at it and trust you and know that you know what you're talking about, and then businesses come. Joel: Fast forward, sort of sold that business and a couple others. New Chad at the time, he was at Direct Employers. As I was blogging, he had a blog that sucked, but he had a blog, and he was like- Chad: Some of us have real jobs. Joel: We were buddies and like, let's just throw some, you know, the shit we talk about over beers, why don't we put a mic in front of us and push it out there? This was before smartphones. People listened to podcasts on the inter webs at the time. Mobile wasn't a thing. There were iPods, but it just wasn't quite a thing. They really sucked, but then I moved back to Indiana where he is, and he kept bugging me like, "Dude, we need to revive the whole podcast thing." Chad: Get off the fucking couch dude, yeah. Joel: Yeah. Put down the cheeseburgers and pick up a mic. I said, "Okay dude. Let's put a landing page out. If we get 100 people to say, 'Yes, you should do this.' And we get at least one company to write us a check, I'll commit to a year." You agree, and I was hoping to god that we wouldn't get 100 people to sign up, or that we wouldn't get someone to write us a check. Chad: That's how much he loves me. Joel: We did, we fulfilled both those goals and we launched the thing two years ago in March, and we just celebrated in March our second year anniversary of the podcast. Chad: Woo. Fred: Great. Woo. Joel: Look at us now. Chad: Yeah, who all listens? Okay, I've got like five, are you kidding me? Fred: Ask tomorrow. Chad: Yeah. Hopefully you'll all come aboard. Podcasts obviously are incredibly, I should say they're on the growth side. Joel: They're hot. Chad: Take a look at the actual hockey stick with podcasts. We started when the only way you could actually listen to them was on your computer. Joel: It was awful. Chad: Yeah, it was horrible. Joel: Yeah, a little piece of embed code from this site that produced audio. Chad: My story real quick. I was in the military for 20 years, active and then also on the civilian soldier side of the house on the reserves. Deployed a couple of times as an infantry drill sergeant down in Fort Benning, Georgia. During that time frame, in '98, I was with Monster before it was Monster. Online career center in Indianapolis, Indiana, along with eSpan, which was also in Indianapolis, Indiana. A couple of the hot job boards at the time. TMP had bought the Monster board and Online Career Center, smushed them together in January of '99. Did Superbowl ads, blimps, all that other happy horseshit, and there you go. Chad: I was actually a part of that growth, and it was fun, and it was just totally incredible to be a part of that. I left, and I went to a organization called Direct Employer's Association. I was there for 10 years as a VP. Actually that's where I met and had the first conversation with Fred, back probably like around 2009, 2010. While I was there, we built the National Labor Exchange. Joel: Did he have hair back then? By the way. Fred: Did he have hair? Big Afro. Joel: Big Afro. Chad: Yeah. It was all teased out and everything. Built the National Labor Exchange. I mean, there were a ton of things that we were doing that was really focused on workforce and economic development, which is why I love listening to the Jobcase story. Chad: From there I went to recruit military, was the CXO there during transition. Was at Randstad RPO, built their veteran hiring program. Then popped out on my own and got ahold of him and said, "Hey, you know, it'd be really cool if we could start doing something to get our name back out and start talking about just shit, and do it the way that we do." Which is a couple of guys on a bar stool talking about the 20 years of experience, and the technology, and all the bullshit that we hear but nobody talks about. Nobody talks about. Chad: If you've ever listened to an HR or TA kind of podcast, or even blog in most cases, everybody just kind of softballs, or it's all warm and fuzzy. Let's shoot it straight, and that's what we did. Within I would say six months we started to see our numbers skyrocket. Today we have a handful of listeners and sponsors. Joel: I think there are three keys to the success of our podcast. Number one is our wealth of knowledge. Yes, we're idiots, but we've been in this space for 20 years, so we actually do have some perspective and context. That's actually really tough to find. Joel: I think the second thing is that we really focused. So many blogs, podcasts, shows, it's like, I want to do a marketing blog, or a marketing podcast. It's like, to who and to what degree? There's so many like really expansive podcasts that I think part of our success was that we really focused on what we knew best, and we just did that stuff because we knew it when we talked about it. Joel: Then I think the third thing was frequency. We committed to it. We committed to a weekly show, and then opportunities came and like, well we need to feature startups, so we launched Firing Squad, which was like Shark Tank for startups. Then we said, well instead of like the weekly stuff, the news is cool, but let's dive in AI, or chatbots, or automation, or programmatic with people who really know those topics. Now we're doing like live shows and talking to companies that way. Because we churn out content, people know they're always going to get fresh stuff, they're always going to know when they go check out the page, or on iTunes or whatever, that there's going to be new stuff. Joel: I think those three things, and you can chime in on any other things that you can think of, but yeah, that has been kind of the key to the success of our podcast. Chad: Yeah, piggy backing on that. It is so hard to keep up with what's going on in our industry. You have to do a ton of research, or listen to our podcast. I mean, that's pretty much what we want. We want to be able to be the straight shooters, do a ton of research, talk to incredibly smart people, and give our opinions on what we've seen throughout the years and what's happening now. Chad: I think also my background's sales and partnership development and whatnot. It was really incredibly important not just to put a podcast out there and step away. We started partnering with organizations like TAtech, which is a conference, and then other conferences wanted to be a part of it, so we started doing live shows. We took a look at other podcasts that were out there that had similar types of formats, but what were they doing different to be successful? Could we adopt some of those and run parallel? We did that as well. We continually do that. Chad: As we build, the way that I see it is I'm a product guy too, is we build new products that the people want. We have listeners, which I pretty much see as our customers. I don't see our sponsors as our customers, it's our listeners, because if they're not there, the sponsors aren't there. What do they want? What do they want us to build? What do they want us to talk about? That's where we look at our analytics, we connect with our listeners, and we try to give the people what they want, because that's what it all comes down to. Fred: One, that's an awesome success story in two years. What sticks out to me from what you just said is we're pretty active in the entrepreneurial community. Joel: We didn't even raise $100 million. Fred: You didn't raise $100 million. Chad: Who do we get in touch with for that? Fred: I can introduce you to a guy. Chad: Yeah, I'd like that. Can we do that? Fred: I know a guy. Chad: That'd be awesome. Fred: It resonates, what you just said about building your podcast. I heard committed. I heard you were focused. I heard you're expert in your own area and content. Then you started talking about iterating and analytics. These are the exact same way so many entrepreneurs talk in, successful entrepreneurs around Kendall Square, so it really resonates with me. Fred: I'm ignorant of the space, I'm guessing I'm not the only one. I'd be curious if we stay on the business of the podcast, what's success look like for you guys with this podcast, say three, five years down the road? What's the end? Then also, what is the business model around it? Is it advertising and call outs? How's that part work? Chad: Yeah, advertising is definitely our ... Again, if we're creating content that obviously continues to grow our listenership, we're doing things right. If that happens, then companies are going to come to us. At that point, and this is really how we grew, so we had one podcast, it was a weekly podcast, that was full of sponsors. We had a bunch of other companies coming to us saying, "Take our money." It was because they wanted to be associated with something that was authentic, something that was real, something that pulled the covers back and actually talked about what the landscape looks like. We actually hit a nerve obviously. Chad: At that point we started creating all these new podcasts that Joel was talking about. We had these concepts ready to go, but we weren't going to just start throwing them out there without the prospect of funding too. Because I have a consulting company, he has a product called Ratedly that's out there, so we have to take a look at the time that we spend, where do we spend it? Joel: I think that, assuming everyone, if you haven't heard a podcast, you've heard a radio station before, so our ads are very similar to radio spots. I think part of our success was the novelty of an audio advertisement. Because most of the companies in our space, they know what Google pay per click ads are, they know what Facebook newsfeed ads are, but there's not a lot of opportunity, unless you're Casper Mattresses or ZipRecruiter- Chad: Peloton. Joel: To like think, oh this podcasting medium is a really cool place to like market our stuff. Because of the audience that we pull is so targeted, a lot of companies I think the novelty of like, oh cool, we could do a little script and record it, and put it out there as like almost a radio spot on your show. I think that was part of the appeal, that it wasn't just put a banner ad on the site, or do something you've already done. It was really unique to a lot of the companies out there. Chad: Well, and we have fun with our sponsors too, because they'll come out with new ads and then we'll make fun of the ads, or we'll make fun of their URL, you know, gocanvas.io, what the fuck is that? It's one of those things. We have fun with it. Joel: Was gocanvas.com taken? Anyway. Chad: Yeah, but they were acquired by Jobvite, so apparently that didn't hurt. Yeah, it's all about trying to, again, be real, and that's what, when you set that expectation every advertiser or sponsor that we talk to, there's one conversation I have right up front, from an expectation standpoint. We are who we are. We own the content. We say what gets on the air, how it gets on the air. You have no say over any of it, period. If you can get behind that, we want you to be a sponsor of ours. Chad: There has not been a company yet to say no, because they want to be a part of that genuineness that, to be quite frank our industry does not have. It's all softballs and fluffy bullshit, right? That's where I think we struck a nerve. Joel: I think from a job case standpoint, and he mentioned community, it's very strange to me, and I'm a marketing person as well, almost pretty much none of our advertisers are laser focused on, what are we getting from marketing on your podcast? None of them have like gocanvas.io/cheese, or something to get this white paper, or to find out more about us. There's no coupon codes that they're pimping to like how many people buy that use this code that we can track what we're getting. Joel: It almost feels like they're supporting the arts. Like we want to be on this ... Well, art can be many things to many people. Chad: Apparently. Joel: Do you agree? Chad: Finger painting. Joel: It feels like they're less concerned about, what's my ROI? More interested in, how do we partake in the community and support what these guys are doing? I think that's kind of an intriguing part of what we do. Chad: Yeah, I think that's a part of it. I think they definitely want to support something that they believe in. I mean, that's I think how we all feel when we give money to charitable organizations or what have you, or even our time. Yeah, I think the ROI in what we do is seen in many different ways for our different sponsors. Joel: Sure, and we get sponsors who say like, "Half our inbound leads are the show, like they mention the show." Maybe it's just like they don't need to do that sort of tracking because they get it sort of anecdotally internally from their sales efforts and lead funnels and all that good stuff. Fred: Let me ask you one more question on the podcast, and then we'll speculate. Joel: You also asked where we wanted to see it going, which we strategically avoided that. Fred: You strategically avoided. This stuff's going to keep getting bigger. Joel: We avoided that topic, because I don't think, we probably don't even agree on it. I don't think we've even talked about it. Chad: We have. Fred: Well I did hear that if there's a stroke URL strategy, it's Stroke Cheese, not Stroke Chad, so that's going to be another issue I guess to resolve. Joel: Yeah. Do you want to talk about that? Chad: Yeah, I mean, I'm a big growth guy, and Joel's a it ain't broke- Joel: I'm a big growth guy. Chad: He's like, it ain't broke, don't fix it, kind of guy. I mean, and the beautiful part is it's a 50/50 kind of relationship. I mean, we have to sell each other on stuff, because one vote doesn't mean that shit happens. It has to be unanimous. Joel: If we disagree, we don't do it, on either side. Chad: Yeah. I mean, we really have to make the case. From our standpoint, the word that I'm always kind of going back to is kind of legacy. What do people see us as? What do people see our podcast as? It's not just our podcast. How do we also help others really springboard them up because they have great voices as well? What is our responsibility in this space? Not to be just truth tellers, but also boost other truth tellers up. How do we do that? We argue about that stuff. We don't agree in some cases. I mean that I think we're both in genuine agreement that that's why we have people on the show, or that's why we want to be able to promote other, or maybe even create other podcasts. Joel: There is the realization, like for the young people in the audience, and there are quite a few, the bottom will fall out one day. Recessions happen, it will happen again. Chad and I have seen at least two in our lifetimes. When that happens, our industry gets hit significantly harder because when people don't hire, we can't make money, unless you have a different model. I think we're probably more conservative with what we're going toward, knowing that, okay, when the bottom falls out and the sponsorship dollars dry up, what happens to the show? We have to think about that as well when we think about growth. Agree? Chad: Yeah, I totally agree, but I also think that in a recession there's also a great conversation around keeping your brand alive, you know what I mean? Joel: Yeah. It's a little bit like everyone in Boston that was born after 2000 just thinks like championships happen all the time. Chad: Hands up. Joel: They really don't. There are dry spells where things suck, and that's the important insight as well. Chad: Just not in your lifetime. Joel: Yeah. Fred: What is one of the, if you look back at the two years, what is a podcast that's very memorable either because a guest goes horribly wrong, or because it went very viral afterwards on sharing? Can be good or bad, but what comes to mind in the last two years of podcasts? Chad: Career Builders dumpster fire that's turning into like this dumpster inferno thing, has been incredibly helpful. I mean, there's no question. The stupid shit that we hear out of Career Builder, that everybody knows is real, that has really propelled us. Not to mention Indeed making just stupid, I mean maybe it's not stupid short term monetarily for them, or revenue standpoint, but I think long term we see it as stupid to be able to make those types of decisions. People want to hear about that. When we can kind of glom onto it and give our opinion on top of it, it's been big. It's been very big. Joel: Two things that stand out for me is, so I have a journalism degree from Ball State, Muncie's in the house. Speaker 5: Woo. Chirp, chirp. Joel: Chirp, chirp motherfuckers. Chad: That is the weakest shit I think I have ever heard. Joel: Although we're- Chad: Chirp, chirp motherfuckers. Really. That's going to be the name of this pod, by the way. Joel: That's better than the Chad and Cheese Show. Although we're generally sort of idiotic, I mean we present our stuff in an idiotic way, and we drink beer, and we're just like two dudes. I've been really proud of some of the more journalistic stuff that we've done. Like if you go back, we interviewed Monster CEO Scott Gutz, and to me that was a really great interview. We interviewed Dan Finnigan, former Jobvite CEO. Chad: Colin Day. Joel: Colin Day, iCIMS. To me it's those little journalistic moments that I'm really, really proud of. I would also say that secondarily Chad and I are, we're underdogs in a way, and we're big fans of startups. People want to hear about Indeed, they want to hear about Google, they want to hear about LinkedIn. We give that to them because that's what they want, but we're really proud I think of Firing Squad, in that we bring in startups that most people have never heard of, ideas that they've never heard of before, and we give them a platform. Granted, we kill a lot of them, but we're proud that we give them a stage that they generally would not have at a trade show, or putting my ad on Facebook. Chad: Yeah. They have a chance. Put it that way. Joel: Yeah. Lifting up the underdog I think is a proud part of the show for me. Chad: Yeah. Fred: Love that. Let's jump off on that. Let's just softball down the middle. We'll do the softball fluff questions here. Let's talk about what you see happening in the talent acquisition industry. The moment we're in, or the new technology you think is really catching your eye, or what's being overplayed. Kind of just curious to see, have you kind of ruminate on that. Joel: June 13th, 2016, do you know what happened on that day? Chad: A meteor. Fred: I don't, do you? Joel: Anyone? On that day Microsoft announced the acquisition of LinkedIn, for $26.2 billion. Chad: A little bit of cash. Joel: That day really created a huge ripple or wave in our industry. It got Google's attention. It got Facebook's attention. It got Salesforce. Like everyone who didn't consider employment because it's a little bitty billion dollar industry like classifieds. Job classifieds are considered like a billion dollar industry. All started taking note of that investment and saying, "Okay, what does Microsoft know that we don't? Or what do we also know but lost an opportunity to get LinkedIn?" Joel: Shortly thereafter you had Google say, "We're going to get in this thing." In a course of a year Google launches a search API to help job boards and company career sites better search for jobs. You got Google for Jobs, which was essentially Indeed on Google, where Google actually has the job listings or descriptions. Chad: Indeed used to say they were the Google for jobs. Now Google is the Google for jobs. Joel: Yeah, now Google is the Google for jobs. Then also launch an ATS, like manage candidates, have your own career site. We saw Facebook launch a Slack competitor, we saw them launch job postings on their sort of online marketplace. To me, when you ask, where is it going? You have sort of this monolithic, we want to be a everything platform. Joel: You have Microsoft, which already owns Office 365, Teams, now LinkedIn's going to come into this thing. Google as well with G Suite. Now they're plugging in hiring tools and recruiting tools in there. I think Facebook has a lot of issues with privacy that they sort of dropped the ball on it. A world in which those two companies become like Coke and Dr. Pepper for sort of workforce management I think is where we're going. I think eventually HR is going to lose the decision to buy LinkedIn or Google. It will be IT that will decide we're a Microsoft house so we're using Microsoft employee tools, or we're a G Suite house, so we're using Google for our employment stuff. That's the world we're living in. Joel: As a reaction to that, the meteor hits, certain animals die. I think we're seeing sort of the slow death or dilution of job boards, sites that we think about historically as like Monster, Career Builder, Dice. We're also seeing, when asteroids hit, we're seeing little mammals that sort of grow up and evolve. We're seeing sort of on that end AI, automation, programmatic, companies that are small and growing into sort of evolved solutions. We're seeing companies like Jobvite and iCIMS try to be a second layer for an all-encompassing platform. They're buying companies like Canvas for Messaging and Talemetry and RolePoint, and TextRecruit for iCIMS. Joel: I guess long story short, I mean there's huge amounts of change. It's an incredibly great time to be a podcast, because you have these big companies getting in, these little companies sprouting up. Where that all shakes out no one knows, but it's a hell of a good time to talk about it. Chad: Yeah, and I think, so I'm not a big believer in that there's going to be one system for all. I just don't believe that. Whether it's Google, whether it's Microsoft, or what have you. I believe there's always going to be the different players that will be a part of the prospective layers, which is what we're seeing today. Which is crazy, because there are so many different layers that talent acquisition, they don't even use their first layer, being their applicant tracking system, let alone all these other things that they're trying to layer on. Chad: From my standpoint is we talked about our history and being there really when the big job boards, when this industry, I mean really was born, which was really cool, and it's so exciting. It's more exciting now I think than ever before because of the startups and the other players that are really focused on different areas. Chad: Like talk about empowerment. How can you actually get a site? You hear companies talk about empowerment, it's generally just bullshit, because they don't know how to make it work. When you get into a platform and you can see, and not just trying to play to the audience here, but when you can start to see the actual community, the empowerment within the actual platform itself, we're seeing that to some degree in social media, but we're also seeing a lot of the bad shit too. How can you balance that, or how can you get rid of what's happening on the bad side, versus the actual empowerment that needs to happen? Chad: Because people aren't just taking jobs for dollars, they're taking jobs for purpose, and obviously to feed their family. Don't get me wrong, but purpose has a lot to do with it, and nobody's really talk, they're talking about purpose, but they're not demonstrating purpose. Joel: I think we're sort of seeing almost the third wave of sort of the online process. The first was like, just get online. Just take your help wanted sign that's on your window and put it on the internet. Then the second phase, probably in the mid 2000s you had social media. You had MySpace, Friendster, which we remember and we're still on, and Facebook, Twitter. You had like let's just get online. Now you have people online. Joel: Now I think the third wave is sort of like we have technology that can help bring people into the technology and help them do their jobs better, find work more easily. I think where you guys are really valuable is that you've taken sort of the first wave of, there are opportunities, there are people, now how do we bring those together and help them build a community within that? Which is different than a lot of other companies kind of play that dynamic, but I think the way that you're doing it is pretty fascinating. Chad: Right. Well I'll give you a great example. There's a company that's not too far away from here, it's called RallyPoint. I'm in the military, it's a military kind of like Facebook, to an extent. There is some empowerment that's happening there, because when I go in, I'm actually going in, in most cases, to be able to help some of the individuals in the platform who are veterans answer questions around jobs. That to me is incredibly important. I don't think they have as tight a knit or control over it as they possibly could, but I think they're trying to go in the right direction. Fred: Yeah, we know them. Harvard Innovation Lab, right? Chad: Yup. Fred: It's a good team. You touched a little bit on the labor markets as well. Why don't you talk about where you see, and it might be a conversation about platforms, like Wonolo or BlueCrew or Shiftgig, or it might be a conversation about labor market development. Are we going to 1099 instead of W-2? How do you see that labor market playing out, either before or after the recession you mentioned? Joel: Yeah, I'm a pretty simple guy. I graduated from Ball State. I didn't go to MIT or Harvard or any of those schools. Fred: No chirp, chirp on that one? Joel: Chirp, chirp. I like things that make a lot of sense to me. Like when Indeed came out, that made a lot of sense. Take all these disparate systems, all these jobs that are everywhere, bring them into one system and let people easily search and go to those sites. Joel: When I look at platforms that you talk about, the PARE, the Snags, the ones you mentioned, to me it makes a lot of sense. Like if I was getting ready to graduate, or if I was in school, it just makes sense like I want to be this certain thing, let's say I want to be a cook. I want to work at Ruth's Chris, I want to work at Morton's, I want to work at whatever steakhouse. I want to cook steaks for a living, and I can be on this platform where a company can basically bid for my services based on my rating, based on my years experience, whatever. Then when I want to work, I can log in and pick and choose what steakhouse I want to work at that day. Joel: To me it just makes sense that the user is empowered to work when they want, make as much as they want. Then the employer is empowered because if I need an extra cook that night, or an extra whatever because there's a conference in town, that I can easily access this talent pool to bring them in and not have to go through like, post a job, interview them for a full time employee, get the benefits. Joel: By the way, we haven't said the word ghosting yet since we've been here, but ghosting is a huge problem with companies, where people get a job and just don't show up, or they come for a week and then like I'm kind of done with it. To me, platforms make a ton of sense. I think that's why we're seeing so much money go into that space, that people see that as well. Chad: Yeah, I think it's hard to have the conversation without talking about platforms and infrastructure, and being able to once again empower people to find those jobs, and really be in control. That's where we're going. I mean I'm sure, it's not here, it will be next year in a form in California, but who's heard of GDPR? That's all about what? Giving control of pretty much a candidate control of their own data. It's their data. It's not the employer's data. That's a huge shift, and we're seeing that shift happen. Joel: That's coming to America, by the way. Chad: That's coming next year, just starting in California. I mean, being able to do much of what we're doing today outside of platforms, platforms are just going to seep in. Technology is, it's Moore's Law. Fred: That's good. Thanks. Let me hit some questions people asked in advance, just a couple quick ones. Let's see if there's any more out here. Joel: Will we know who asked the question? Fred: I will tell you. Joel: Is this all anonymous? Fred: I will tell you their first names, and I think because everyone pings my members to hire them all the time, or my employees- Joel: Everyone point to whoever first name this is. Fred: Uri, Uri in the room? He's here. Joel: There we go. There's the balls. Yeah, this is my question. Fred: Our man Uri is on our information retrieval team, expert in machine learning and does a lot of applications of that for us. One of Uri's questions says, It seems that recruiting's become less and less humane with automated resume parsing, application filtering, automated screening, et cetera. Where does it get us? What is the affect on teams and overall company culture that we're choosing AI for recruiting?" Chad: Fred has a great slide that you need to take a look at Uri. Just from the base of this question, literally, and I use this in some of the podcasts and presentations that we do, where he's taking a look at like O*NET jobs, and then he's showing that this whole job can't be automated. That there are just aspects, tasks in this job that can be automated. Chad: I think what we should be focusing on is, oh my god, are our jobs going to go to robots? This prospect, but just not yet. Right now we can be more human because we're getting more time back. Recruiters are not doing all this stupid shit and being able to go through and make the calls, and schedule the appointments for the interviews, and just all the mundane things that keep them busy and keep bad recruiters in the system. Good recruiters want to be able to actually provide the human touch. Chad: I believe that the technology will allow us, at least this first phase will allow us to get rid of all these mundane tasks and just focus on process. That's one of my big keys, is that we are always focused on technology, technology, technology, and that's bullshit. We need to focus on process and the problem, and then start looking at technology. At that point we become more human because of technology. Joel: I'd also add that I think ironically the job search process is becoming more human thanks to technology. Now what I mean by that is 10, 15, 20 years ago, even less than that, when you submit a resume to a company online it was what's called the resume black hole. You'd submit a resume to a company, you'd never hear back from them, maybe an automated thank you for applying. It was really a cold and corporate process. Joel: Thanks to chatbots, thanks to messaging, sort of automated conversations that are happening right now, even though job seekers know, because they're told that this is a chatbot, they still like it a lot more than just giving up a resume and then never hearing from a company. Like they would much rather have some sort of communication. I think in a weird way the automation has created a more human touch to the job search process as well, which has been a good thing for companies. Chad: Yeah. Fred: Thanks. This might follow on part of that. Dylan runs our commercial sales team. Chad: Where's Dylan? Fred: Dylan [crosstalk 00:36:07]. Joel: Sales guy question. Fred: Yeah, so here's the thing about Dylan, he is an early indicator of success. He was an early employee over at Indeed. He was an early part of our sales efforts here, so I'm a little concerned he might be looking for the next thing too early on this question. Because he says, "What's the one thing employers want or need that no vendor is adequately serving today? Chad: Okay. Fred: I think that's interesting. I asked you what you see in the current marketplace, and what holes do you see that no one's really filled? Chad: That is a big key. There are so many different types of platforms that can do what we were just talking, being able to take care of those mundane pieces. The problem is they're outside of the applicant tracking system in many cases. You're sending a recruiter from here to this platform, to this platform. I think a lot of the tech is actually out there. The big issue is the integrations, and making sure that the system of record, whether that's your CRM, if that's what you want to call it, or your ATS, that they are integrating into these different platforms to ensure that you have all these efficiencies in place. Chad: That's the big key, because talent acquisition, they can't spell programmatic. They don't know how, hell Joel says they can't spell SEO. They don't know what AI is, and who gives a shit what AI is, right? Just as long as you understand the process and the problem, you can take care of that, but there has to be an integrated system that does that. I think that, Fred, it's not really something that's new. It's how we take what we already have and use it in more of an appropriate manner. Joel: I want to see a day, and I think a day will come at some point where a business owner says, "Hey Alexa, schedule me up to 10 ..." Not even that, "Alexa, find me a PHP developer nearby." The bots go in and they go source candidates that are PHP developers within 10 miles or whatever of where you are. They set up an automated process to prescreen and interview the person, that's also unbiased, by the way. There's not sort of, it's really actual skills, and we haven't talked about that. Chad: Oh, you're talking about the robots. Joel: They do the interview without the person ever doing anything. They schedule it through the process. The scheduling syncs up with the business owner's own Google Calendar or whatever. It'll get scheduled, he goes in the next week, 10 candidates come in that have already been pre-screened, sourced. All he has to do is like sort of make sure the chemistry's right, or interview them, a quick interview, and then hire them in that process. Joel: To me, I think there's a future where we just say, "I need a PHP developer by next month." The bots go do it for you, and people show up, and you hire them if they're fits or not. Chad: There are some companies that are already doing this. I think you take a look at, if you want to see who's- Joel: Well trying to do it. Chad: No, they are. Joel: No one does the full bore, "Hey Alexa." Chad: Cielo does. Joel: Who? Chad: Well not that, they don't do the, "Hey Alexa." Thing, for god sakes. Joel: All right, then you're wrong. Chad: Oh god. Anyway, if you take a look at the RPO side of the house, recruitment process outsourcing companies, one of the things that we have to understand is talent acquisition, it's their job to hire people. In RPO and staffing, it's their business, so they're really focused on efficiencies and the best ways to get from A to Z, or whatever that is. Chad: You take a look at some of those companies and some of the tech that they're putting in place, which is one of the reasons why I love to have conversations with those individuals like Adam Godson or Quincy Valencia, or what have you, at those different RPOs, because they are constantly looking at chatbots, and sourcing tech, programmatic tech, and bleeding that all together so that you do have ... Chad: I'll give you a great example. Right now Cielo has a high volume product that within 10 minutes after they do a posted job, programmatic outreach, as soon as individuals start engaging, within 10 minutes, under 10 minutes, they're already scheduled for an interview. It's boom, right? That's exactly where we need to be, and we can be today. We just have to be able to build those bridges on a more scalable platform, like an applicant tracking system. Fred: Last question from Karen on our biz dev team, account manager. Are you in the room Karen? Chad: Karen? Karen? There she is. Fred: She had asked about gigs, which you already addressed, but she also says, "How do you think the Uber and Lyft IPOs play out in the long run?" Feel free, I'll tack onto the end of that, feel free to address also how the path to public companies can impact or affect how you think companies are serving either their clients or their job seekers. Joel: I think Google is a good example. I mean, Google for 10 years was riding the pay per click train. Growth was through the roof. Everyone was doing it. It was trending incredibly well. Then people started to get more choices in how they advertised. Social media, there are all kinds of ways. Google's last quarterly report they dropped 10% because clicks are going down, the growth isn't there, the amount that they get per click is going down. Google has to figure out, where's the low hanging fruit for more money? To me they're looking at, how do we verticalize our search? How do we do apartments, and cars, and all these different things? Employment is one of those verticals that to me they're targeting to help increase revenue. Joel: Why that's relevant is I think Uber and Lyft eventually the ride sharing train is going to slow at some point. At that point they have to say, where does growth come? Where does more money come? They're looking at driverless cars, and creating those systems. I think Uber in particular is looking at, how do we create, we already have these people that are in the Uber platform that we pay for driving, how can we pay them for doing other things? Uber Eats is I think an extension of that. How do we pay them to go pick up food and deliver it? Joel: I think work is going to be another thing that they probably get into. Like, how do we just use our platform so someone who drives a car also can sign up to work at a dry cleaner, or work at a convenience store? Then we'll manage that whole process because we already have the platform to do it. I think inevitably Lyft will probably look at that space as well, because if it's successful for Uber they'll look at that. I guess that's the answer to the question as I know it. Chad: Yeah. I think it's going to be hard for those companies coming from the direction that they did. I think companies in the employment space can actually take a look at that because they already have clients, they have companies to be able to build on, and they have revenue streams that are already built in for new products that they could build much like an Uber or a Lyft. Joel: Ghosting will go down a lot when a driverless car goes to pick your worker up and bring them right to work. It's like, a car's going to be there in an hour. You get in it and come to work. I'm also really excited about Slack's IPO. I'm really intrigued about how they're going to get into the workforce. If you don't think they're interested, their ticker symbol is work, so they're coming in the space. Chad: Yeah, they're a messaging app. Not to mention, does everybody know how Slack actually came to be? Stewart Butterfield, again, he's trying to build this software company, has to create Flickr to sell it to be able to gain more money to be able to fuel the engine. That didn't work. They found some more money, started the whole thing again, and Slack came out of it. Chad: Whenever I hear Slack talk about vision, all I hear is bullshit, because that was, it was a product that they used internally. There was no vision there. Their vision was to create like this VR second life thing that Joel would be in like 24/7. From my standpoint to me it just seems incredibly overblown. I think they are a company that, much like Uber and Lyft, can demonstrate to the rest of the market where opportunity is, but I just don't see them long term, unless somebody acquires them, which won't happen because they're going to be IPO here in about two weeks. Joel: Agree with either one of us. Slack should be interesting to watch. Chad: It will be interesting to watch. Fred: It'll be interesting with that, yeah. Chad: Yeah, crash and burn. Fred: All right. Right when we're getting the good stuff, we're kind of wrapping up, we're at one o'clock. Listen, I learned a lot and I thank you. I applaud what you guys have done and the success you're having. It's fricking awesome to watch. Appreciate the nice things you said about Jobcase along the way. Anything you want to wrap up with before we call it an hour? Joel: Well every time we have a CEO come on the show and pitch their product, at the end of their pitch they never tell the audience where they can learn more about their product, so I guess I would leave it as simply, if you liked what you heard today and you want to hear more, check out ChadCheese.com, or just search the Chad and Cheese podcast on whatever podcast platform you prefer. Chad: Hit the blue subscribe button and have at it. Fred: I think you added a lot of listeners today. Thank you Chad. Thank you Joel. Joel: Thanks Fred. Chad: Thanks guys. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more visit ChadCheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Jobcase #History #Boston #recruiting #Interview #LIVE #Careerbuilder #Indeed #podcasting #LinkedIn #Microsoft #Google

If you thought Google was going to be content offering its Hire product to small businesses, well, you're in for a surprise. Big G recently announced it would be supporting Enterprise customers as well. Look out LinkedIn ... and, um, every popular ATS on the planet. The boys have a chat with one of Google's early enterprise customers and the results are ear-worthy to say the least. Enjoy this Uncommon exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides comprehensive website accessibility testing with personalized recommendations to enhance usability for people with a variety of disabilities or situational limitations. Chad: Dude, we're always talking about cool new tech but it's hard for hiring companies to change. Adoptions a bitch. Joel: Yep. Chad: New tech can get them to qualified candidates so much faster. Joel: I know man, but recruiters already have the routine in place and nobody wants to jump into another platform, especially when it's expensive and also requires hours, maybe, days of training. Chad: Exactly, but that's where Uncommon's new service comes into play. Uncommon pairs expert recruiters with in-house, kick-ass technology. Joel: All right. Interesting, interesting. It sounds like Uncommon understands the problem of change. Chad: That's why they hand select veteran recruiters, train them on this kick-ass technology that has access to over 100 million active profiles. Joel: Yeah, yeah. But I bet they're expensive and I bet it requires some kind of annual commitment or contract, right? Chad: No, man. Uncommon is not an agency. They don't require a contract, any contingencies. All they do, they charge one flat fee per projects, saving, I don't know, anywhere from 50-80% on each hire versus the average agency cut. Joel: Oh, snap! Companies could save big stacks of paper. Especially if they're rapidly scaling and need hires today. Chad: Yep. All you have to do is reach out to Teg and the Uncommon crew at Uncommon.co. That's Uncommon.co. Joel: Change doesn't have to be a pain if you're using Uncommon. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: All right, all right, all right. What's up gang? We have a special treat today. We talk about Google more than most human beings on the planet, particularly hire Google for jobs and their job search API. Today we actually have a big ass company who's using Hire by Google to talk about it and tell us about her experience. Amy Smith, head of talent at Framestore out of London, England. She thinks she's too British for the show. I don't think so. Amy, how are you? Amy: Good, thank you. Joel: Thanks for joining us. Give us just a quick snapshot of you and your job and what Framestore does because Chad and I had no idea but the company is badass. So, tell us a little about Framestore. Amy: Sure. So, as you said earlier, I am the head of talent. Chad: There it is. Amy: Yeah, have to give it that emphasis. Which means that I oversee all of our recruitment, but also look at retention. So, great, we get the talented people here but how do we keep them here once we've done that? Then, in terms of Framestore, so, Framestore is a digital content studio. Which basically means, we make computer generated images for any screen you can think of. So, film screen, TV screen, mobile screen, installation VR headset, you name it. Some of the stuff we've worked on lately, which I think you're referring to, we worked on Avengers: Endgame. Chad: Oh my god. Amy: Yeah. Yeah. We made smart Hulk, amongst other things. Joel: Who cares about Endgame. She just said VR- Chad: Oh geeze. Joel: On our podcast. Chad: See one of the biggest box office hits and then Joel goes down the fucking VR rabbit hole again. Joel: Hey. Amy is super bullish on VR, I can tell. I can tell in her voice. Chad: Captain Marvel, Avengers: Endgame, the new Spiderman movie that's coming out. I actually told you before we got on, Amy, took my daughter to see Alita: Battle Angel twice and there's so much cool graphics in that movie. I mean, when I say what you guys did, I was like, I was so stoked. I was happy that we actually didn't have Tarquin on the show and we got to talk to you instead. Amy: Good. Joel: Yeah, just wait until she creates a VR headset experience for getting a job at Framestore. Then maybe you'll pay attention to VR. Chad: Yeah. So, what's the possibility of that happening any time soon, Amy? Amy: Well. You know, we've made a VR experience where we can have you walk on the moon. Chad: Walk on the moon? Joel: That's cool. Amy: Yeah. It was something we did in collaboration with Samsung. Yeah. We put you in a rig, basically, that secretly weights you and then it simulates for you the weight you would be on the moon. Then we put you in a VR headset that shows you the moon and you bounce up and down as if you were actually walking on the moon. Chad: So, you have to do all this and then we're on a podcast to talk to you about your applicant tracking system. Jesus. Amy: Yep. I know. Joel: I feel like I'm doing everybody a disservice with this first question. Chad: So that's the big thing. Right? And it's cool because working with the Tarquin and the team over there, they were like, "Look, don't talk to us. Talk to our clients." And we were lucky enough to actually get you on the show. Chad: You are one of the very first enterprise customers for Hire by Google, and they just announced that they went from SMB and they're moving toward enterprise. How does that feel to be on the leading edge? Amy: Actually it's been awesome because Google are obviously really keen to make it work, so they've been amazingly helpful, and they've made it incredibly smooth to make the transition as a result. We sort of get the opportunity to beta to test things for them and that's really great going from our previous solution which was a long-standing solution where, getting any kind of change which was almost impossible, to now dealing with Google who is so keen to hear feedback is just brilliant. Chad: Okay, so who was that? Who did you move from? Amy: Dun dun dun, the dreaded Taleo. Chad: Awhhh. Chad: See, the interesting thing Amy, is that Taleo, back in the day, first it was called "RecruitSoft", it was known as almost the same as Google now because it really was focused on just ease of use and it's turned into this crazy piece of shit that you just can't use. Amy: Because Oracle bought it, basically it was fine until Oracle bought it. Joel: Bam. Amy pulls no punches, I love it. Chad: So there are plenty of other brands in the industry, why choose an unproven product like Hire? Cause they're still proving it, it hasn't been out that long and it's only been SMB. You guys are a relatively large company, why go with an unproven product? Joel: Trailblazers. Amy: The one thing that we did like about Taleo was that if you're familiar with it you can customize it a lot yourself. We had customized it very heavily and I was a Super User, so we could make it do most things that we wanted. So, there didn't really seem any point moving to anything else on the market at the time because where we would make wins in some aspects, we would lose in others. Amy: And the difference with Hire was that we're using at Framestore the rest of G Suite for business. So for us, it was about the fact that it synced up all of our work tools, because the big thing Taleo couldn't do for us was sync up with our meeting room calendars, so we were doing things like booking interviews twice. Once in our actual calendars and once in Taleo. Amy: All these things, and that ability to sync all our work tools together was the big sell for us. Joel: I'm curious because there are listeners out there, companies that say, "I wish I could be Google's guinea pig. Why did Google pick you? Was it because you're already using G Suite and the relationship with the IT department, do they have a special relationship with you? Why did you guys get picked?" Amy: Honestly I actually don't know. I reached out to them when Hire was first announced and said, "Look I know you're only interested in SME (SMB in the US) and you're only interested in the US at the moment, but we would be very interested in having a conversation with you when you are thinking about going larger." And then when they were, they reached back out to us. So I don't know what the decision making at Google was about that, but I guess we'd shown interest. Joel: It sounds like you just took some initiative. What a novel concept. Good for you, Amy. Good for you. Good. Joel: You're very outgoing for British people. Amy: Not the norm. Chad: So, the case study that Google's put out is entitled fifty percent uplift in hiring manager engagement, which is one of the hardest things to do. One of the reasons why many companies lose great candidates, great talent, is because the hiring managers don't move fast enough because they're not engaged in the process and or the system. So this is big, so can you explain what that actually means fifty percent uplift in hiring manager engagement? Chad: Where was the uplift? Why was the uplift? How did this all happen just by using Hire? Amy: Yeah, sure. So, essentially I could probably count on one hand, the number of hiring managers who actually looked at candidates in Taleo, and I think there are a few reasons why that changed. Amy: One was a single login. So obviously with Taleo they had to login to a separate system, with Hire they don't. But also, I just think it's that familiar interface thing because we're using the rest of the G Suite tools. Amy: When we sent out the email saying, "Here's the link." And they clicked on it, it looked like something they were familiar with and it was easy to navigate and it was straight-forward and what the fifty percent uplift looks like is without any training, we fully anticipated we were gonna have to training and without any training all of a sudden, hiring managers were pinging us about candidates that we weren't even aware they'd seen. Amy: Because they just gone in there and started looking at stuff. What is happening right now? Chad: We're just talking about something that just looks and feels familiar to them, right? So they're used to G Suite? It looks and feels familiar, so they just jumped right in without any training?- Is that what you're saying? Amy: Yep. That's what I'm saying. Amy: Worldwide as well, not just in one location. [crosstalk 00:10:49] Joel: Wow, wow, wow. How big is your team, Amy? Amy: There's about eleven of us world-wide. Chad: How many hiring managers do you serve? Amy: Oh, lots. I actually haven't counted them. Joel: The, "Uh" really tells me a lot. There's a shit ton of them, yeah. Chad: Lots. Joel: So, Amy, whether you know you're using it or not, you're instantly going up to Google for jobs and you're also using the Google Search capability, so you've talked a little bit about how you're recruiting team is benefited by the switch to Google. Joel: Can you talk at all about the candidates or quality of candidates, or even the user experience, as part of using hire? Amy: One thing I've noticed is that our jobs definitely have more visibility now. One of the problems we had with Taleo was actually the way that our instance of Taleo was set up. Our jobs were effectively hidden from Google Search, which was massively helpful to us. Amy: Fortunately with Framestore we work on Endgame, so a lot of people knew to find us. But yeah, it wasn't ideal. So, already just the fact that if you search, "Framestore jobs", they actually come up or, "visual effects jobs", they come up. Amy: That's really helpful. Then I think the other thing is that the application forum is so much easier to fill in and there's no sign-in for candidates so that whole thing of having to sign-in to your account and update your details and all of that stuff was gone. Amy: You literally just fill in some basic details and hit submit. You can do that as many or as few times as you like. I think that's hugely beneficial to candidates and then, let's not forget, with our hiring managers being all over it you're now also getting a response from us much, much more quickly than you ever were before. Chad: Gotcha. Joel: Any anecdotal evidence by candidates that user experience is so much better? Do they come in interviews and say, "Wow it was so easy to apply and use the system.", and they really enjoyed it, or not so much? Amy: Honestly we've only been using it since January so we haven't actually surveyed that and we don't have any anecdotal evidence. No one's said anything as such, but certainly no one's complained. Amy: One of the things we had with Taleo was candidates who would write to our general email address and say, "I've had problems applying.", for one reason or another. We haven't had any of that with Hire. Chad: It really doesn't make much sense that doing everything else on the web, you can buy things, you can do whatever you want, without having to quote unquote, "create an account", never really understood why we still have to create an account an applicant tracking system. Chad: But, on the integration kinda like transition, moving from Taleo to Hire by Google, how was integration? I'm sure you had a ton of candidate records, did you migrate those over into Google? Or how did that actually work? Amy: Yeah, so we did. We migrated all of our data which was seventy-seven thousand candidate profiles, and I have to confess and I hope Google don't mind me saying this, that we did have a bit of problem with our data migration because we were one of the first of this size to do it. Amy: And they learned some things along the way, but actually the good thing is that we fed back and everything that was a problem has been fixed and its now fine. So, although there were some teeny problems, they were things that could be resolved, so it wasn't a complete disaster and like I said, people have learned from the experience and they know what to do next time they have a customer as large or larger than we are. Amy: I didn't mind that so much particularly as they were so keen to get it right and so fast to respond to anything that went wrong, and our account manager Jessica is just awesome and she's been brilliant. Amy: We've had at least a weekly conversation with Jessica since we started this process so, I can't complain about it. Given that I didn't even know who my account manager at Taleo was, having a weekly call is something of a turn-up for the books. Chad: So this is a message to Taleo, get your shit together. So, as you have seventy plus thousand candidate records in your database, one of the things is that Hire has been pressing and I thought was really cool is that there is this automatic candidate surfacing piece that is in, so that when you post a job, it automatically serves up candidates in your database that could perspectively be qualified for that job. Chad: Are you seeing that? Is it working? If so, is it working pretty well, or does the algorithm need help? Amy: It's working now. When we first started the algorithm wasn't working. It was a thing between brilliant search and not brilliant search and which one it was doing and it was being weird. But it's resolved now and it works really well now. Amy: It's definitely turning up the right profiles of people. Now, whether they're people with previously dismissed rather reasons or not is a different thing, but, there's not necessarily a way the algorithm could know that. Amy: It's definitely turning up the right profiles of people for sure. Joel: Amy, you mentioned some problems with the data migration, so let's dig into some other problems or things that maybe Google Hire doesn't do yet that's on your wish-list. What would that look like? Amy: When we first rolled out, offer approvals wasn't in Hire, that's recently gone in in the last month. That's now been resolved, but that was definitely something to start with, and obviously we've now got a bit more data migration to do cause we've got to migrate in all the offers that we were doing externally for a couple of months. Joel: Amy, would you dare say that you love your current ATS? Amy: Oooh. Joel: Cause you may be the first person in history. Amy: Well, that's a lot of pressure now to say that. Amy: Can I say I like my current ATS, with a view that may be a longer relationship I might love it? Chad: I like that. Joel: You can say that, sure. Joel: I like it a lot. [crosstalk 00:16:57] Chad: I like it a lot.[crosstalk 00:16:58] Amy: Oh no, I knew that was gonna happen; mocking the accent. Reports, that's the other thing that I think still needs some work is reporting. Amy: There are reports in there and the reports that are there are great, but if you want to do something fairly custom, that involves basically downloading all of your data into an Excel spreadsheet and then interrogating it from there which is obviously not ideal when you have seventy-seven thousand candidate records. Amy: Cause that takes a while to download, but for example, one of the things we used to do in Taleo was a weekly scheduled report for certain departments that needed to know certain information about who was joining the business or- that kind of thing. Amy: And you can't do any of that kind of reporting at the moment in Hire, so, that's definitely one of the things that I think we're looking for improvements on but I know its on their road map. Chad: So, in the case study it also refers to increased candidate response time to "almost instant". Now, okay almost instant is pretty damn good. Why do you believe it has gone to almost instant? What is Google doing to be able to help you get candidates their response time is so fast? Amy: What happens is when someone applies, the hiring managers gets a notification, if they've chosen to have those on and a lot of our hiring managers have been trustingly. If I have the choice to define that for them, I probably would have switched that off for them, but actually a lot of them have chosen personally to keep that on. Amy: So they get that notification and they're like, "Oh I'm gonna click on that." And they look at their candidate and they look interesting and within about five minutes after the candidate applying, the recruiter has a notification from the hiring manager saying, "I like this person, let's meet them.". Amy: And if the recruiter says they do, then there's an email that's gone back to the candidate after no more than ten minutes saying, "Hey, just saw you apply to come in and meet us.". I mean that's phenomenal. Chad: So, the experience itself, and companies are always talking about candidate experience, makes sense because again, candidates could be customers. Many of those companies have very verbose kind of cosmetic experiences on their site. Tons of content, all that stuff. You guys don't, and Hire really doesn't. Chad: Hire is very "keep it simple" stupid and it's very bare-bones. Do you believe that's one of the reasons why candidates get through the process so quickly and do you think that, maybe, you might need to have something that has more content-rich information or do you think the "keep it simple" stupid process is really perfect for you guys? Amy: So for our experienced artists, the "keep it simple" stupid process really, really works and I just have to explain a little bit more about how the industry works. So, most people in this industry are on what we call, fixed term contracts which basically means they have a start-date and an end-date of them rather than being permanent. Amy: And the reason for that is obviously this industry is project-driven, and so it may be that for example, we run out of work for a particular kind of skill set at the end of a project, but it might also be that an individual wants to move around from project to project. We've got this show, but the studio down the road might have Superman or might have Star Wars, or might have something that they particularly really want to go and work on and so they just work on a project for us, and then they go down the road and work on a project somewhere else. Amy: It means that we have artists who move around a lot between studios, and so when they apply back to us they don't need the job description. They don't need to know what the job is, they don't even need to know how many frames there are; they know who we are, they know what the job is cause its the same job they've done at fifteen studios before us. Amy: All they want to do is get us their details quickly. For those people, Hire is perfect. I would say though at the more junior end, at our entry-level and internships and all of that stuff, I do think having more content available would be valuable to help them really understand cause I think if you're a new grad or you're at a school; you worry about what the work environment looks like and who you might be working with and- how much is gonna be expected of me and my first job and that kind of thing. Amy: I think having content that could help reassure people at that level would be hugely valuable. Joel: Add it to the wishlist, I guess for Google. Joel: Amy, so you know Google makes a lot of money when people click ads on their main search and we've speculated for a while on this show that eventually you'll be able to post on Google for jobs and have those jobs boosted in some fashion, where you as the advertiser pay for those clicks, for that added exposure. Is that something that they've talked about with you to test? Is that something that you'd like to see in the future? Amy: They haven't mentioned that as being on their road map. Although we're getting hopefully a road map update in the next couple of weeks, so it might be. Amy: But they haven't spoken about it yet, but I think definitely its something that would be of interest for particular roles. I don't think we'd do it for all of our jobs, but for certain hard-to-fill roles I think it would be really helpful to have that as something you could bolt onto a job. Joel: I'm sure they would agree with you. I'm curious, what are you using in term of job boards now? Because as you know, on Google for jobs, they'll show your listings but also people could still apply through other job sites. So, talk a little bit about what you're doing externally and how that interacts with your Google Hire experience. Amy: So here's what's interesting about our industry. People in the majority of jobs in our industry don't go on job boards. There are only really a finite number, I would say certainly less than fifty, major visual effects studios in the world, and so if you want to work in this industry you generally learn who they all are and you just go to them direct. You certainly don't go on to Monster or any of the sort of, bigger job boards out there because that's just not where these jobs are. Amy: So in that sense, we don't really post. Obviously that's different if you're talking about some of our support departments. Like every company, we have marketing and finance and HR, and all those departments and obviously those will go up on the traditional job boards. Amy: But through Hire, we already have integration with Monster, with Glassdoor, with Indeed, so you're already hitting some of the larger ones anyway in terms of profile. Amy: And obviously LinkedIn, offer you job wrapping if you've got company page, so that's happening as well. We generally find, I'm gonna touch wood now, that we don't need to post on other boards as well; that it's kind of working for us as it is. Joel: Can you see a day where you don't post on job boards at all for any positions? Amy: Maybe, although I still think for those that have support departments, like you guys said before we started, you had no idea who Framestore was, why would you? Amy: You know, if you don't work in this industry, you wouldn't necessarily. I think probably for support departments, there's still value in posting more widely than just on our own website and on Google search. Joel: But you are saying there's a chance. Amy: I think there is a chance cause I'll develop that VR experience and then everyone in the world will just try it out [crosstalk 00:24:29] Chad: I think Joel was messaging you on Facebook Messenger or something like that, that was a coordinated effort, I could feel it. Chad: So, as you were talking about before, many of the applicant tracking systems that are out there, one of the biggest issues companies have is service. They don't even know who to call, when they're having issues, for what issues, there's so many different departments; it seems very kind of fractured out there, with Google. Chad: And I know it's very early, especially with Hire and you're one of the first enterprise customers, what is your experience been? And, what would you say to pretty much any startup out there also, Hire, really being a startup at this point, to be able to focus on customer service in scalability? Amy: Our experience of Hire and their customer service has been phenomenal. As I said, Jessica, our customer account manager is available all the time. She's really fast to respond to things. Amy: We've had a weekly call with her since we started this process and she's happy to continue that for as long as we want. It's driven by us, not by her. I know that she has other clients as well, we are by no means her only customers, but she makes us feel like we are almost. She's also really good at, where she has a client who has solved a problem that we're coming up against, she might put us in touch directly with another customer which I also think is interesting. Amy: So you could actually directly share customer experience which I think, why not? That's hugely valuable and I think in terms of talking to other startups, I think that piece is a huge difference and no question has been too silly and I think that's the other thing. Amy: I think sometimes when you buy a piece of software you get your implementation team and they've been through this a million times before and they give you a timeline that's a calendar and they go, "Okay. This is it, this is what we're gonna do when, this is what we need from you when. Great let's go.". Amy: And you kind of feel like, "Oh, I've got some really dumb questions, but they seem so confident they know what they're doing, I don't wanna ask.", whereas with Jessica she was like, "Ask me anything. Doesn't matter, there's no stupid questions. We're new, you're new to us. Ask." And she's been true to that word, we've asked her some very dumb questions and she's made us feel really stupid sometimes, but that's okay. That's absolutely fine. Amy: It's been really good and like you said, I have a very good anecdote about Taleo. It was the day of our Christmas party, and Taleo went down and it said it was because we hadn't paid and I checked with our finance team and we had paid. So, I tried calling the last person who told me they were our account manager in the U.S, and couldn't get through to them. Amy: Got bounced to India, by this point I'm in the taxi on the way to our Christmas party. The person in India couldn't help me and bounced me to Ireland, where I got through to a lady who was packing up for her Christmas holidays and said, "I don't have anything to do with account services whatsoever, I have no idea why you got through to me but I feel for you and I'm gonna try and sort this out for you.". Amy: And so she helped me, and I only missed about the first hour of our Christmas party, but that's just typical of a lot of people's experiences I think. Chad: Not only are they screwing up every day in the office because they had this kind of system that is not workable, they're screwing up your Christmas party, Amy and that [crosstalk 00:28:02] Joel: Such an asshole! Chad: That's gone too far. Amy: Exactly. Too far. Joel: Way too far. Amy: So, yeah. Joel: Well Amy, I expected this to be a stamp of approval from you for Hire, but I didn't expect it to be such a stamp of approval. You're a really big fan and I'm happy that you have an ATS that you like a lot and are on the road to loving, hopefully in the near future. Chad: We'll probably reach out to you, hear in about a year or so, to see if you're still in the like/love scenario, because obviously we want to say abreast to this. Amy: Yeah, whether we've had some terrible breakup, you know? Joel: I feel good about this one, Amy. I feel good about this one. Joel: We'll be in touch again for a progress report. Until then though Amy, thanks for joining us, we know you're busy, and Chad we out. Chad: We Out! Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, The Chad and his buddy Cheese. This has been The Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit Chadcheese.com. #Framestore #HirebyGoogle #Google #CloudTalentSolution #ATS #Uncommon #Adoption #Recruitment

LIVE from sunny Arizona... Ummm wait., no that's rain-soaked Arizona for the iCIMS iNFLUENCE conference. We're talking: - Google for Jobs LIVES - Indeed goes gig - Slack takes it in the nuts - again - LinkedIn has its sights on the Supreme Court against hiQ and we do an iCIMS tech and strategy round-up. You can't beat this with a Talking Stick (get it?)... Thanks to Canvas, Sovren, and JobAdX! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides training and development to help your workplace leaders and employees integrate with and value people with disabilities. James Ellis: Employer Brand isn't something you sprinkle on your recruiting like magic fairy pixie dust, to kind of make it better. It is both a craft and a calling. If that's the kind of work you want to do with your employer brand, come join me, James Ellis, at The Talent Cast. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, Boys and Girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Yeah. Chad: When's it going to rain? Joel: From the rain-soaked desert in Scottsdale, Arizona, you're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, a.k.a. The Chad and Cheese Podcast, a.k.a. Right Said Fred and Seth Rogen. I'm your co-host Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Right Said Fred? Joel: I'm too sexy for my shirt. On this week's show, is Indeed going full gig? Slack continues to take it in the nuts, and, "Hello, Supreme Court. It's us, LinkedIn." Yep, I just dropped a Judy Bloom reference. We'll be right back after we pay a few bills. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas spa is at your side, adding automation to your work flow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine-learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser-focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at GoCanvas.io and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's GoCanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: And we're back. Joel: And we're back here. Recording at the iCIMS yearly analysts/VIP/ Chad: Influence. Joel: Customer event. Chad: That thing. Joel: And it just wanted to rain in Scottsdale, Arizona. One of the 30 days a year that it rains here, we get two of them. Whatever. Chad: Not good for my golf game, not to be able to get out there. Joel: But my massage game is rocking with this indoor activities. Got to give a shoutout to the masseuse that worked my tight- Chad: Jerome? Joel: Areas. Chad: His name was Jerome, right? Joel: Jerome and Bubba worked me over. Man, it's been a long couple days. Chad: It has. Joel: So, shoutouts. Chad: Yes. Joel: Big shoutout to iCIMS, obviously. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Class organization, class people, class product, always have a good time with them. You get the Jersey attitude with- Chad: Yeah. Joel: The soft touch of tech. Chad: In literally opening the kimono. Susan just said that on stage. This is where we open up the kimono- Joel: It's kind of a naughty thing. I'm surprised in the Me too era that we can say "open the kimono so freely." Chad: Susie Vitale can say whatever she wants. Joel: That's true, she can. Chad: She can do that. Big shoutout today to Matt Charney, it's his birthday. So he's turning 70. Joel: Stay young and live forever, Matt. We love you, Man. Chad: Stay young, Matt. This next one is kind of weird. Robert Half, big shoutout to the number one job board on Robert Half's new list? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Big shout, guess who it was? Joel: Was it Robert? Chad: It was Robert Half. Joel: I didn't even know you could look for jobs on Robert Half's website. Chad: All of the different, there's a huge staffing company, so they have to use all these platforms. Joel: Great. Chad: And then, to be able to rank themselves number one, on a list, I thought was fucking outstanding- Joel: Usually, you try to be a little more incognito when you do these lists and want to promote yourself, but- Chad: Yeah, you're in staffing, you just do what the fuck you want. That's just how shit works. Joel: I mean, yeah, pity the fool that reads that and doesn't make the connection that it's self-serving. Man, who else was on the list? Chad: I don't know, I just, I had to stop right there because that just blew the whole list for me. Joel: Yeah, I think somebody commented, "Hello, 2012 called. They want their job board list back," or something. Chad: As if Robert Half's job board was even on a list in 2012. Joel: No doubt. Shoutout to Colin Day. Chad: Colin, yes. Joel: iCIMS CO was kind enough to have dinner with us yesterday at the event. Always nice to see him. Success couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, so Colin, shoutout to you. Chad: Colin's a great guy. I mean, he is one of the industry leaders who, he was a recruiter, and all the way up through the ranks, I mean, they just stuck to their guns, on the applicant tracking system and what they do, and they will say that, "Hey, we haven't done it right all of these years, but we feel like we're getting it right now." That's really cool for somebody to just be, again, that transparent and talk about where they feel like they were off the rails for a minutes. Joel: Yep. I love that, this may bleed into iCIMS round-up, but I might forget, I love that his sort of opinion of new tech and where things are going is sort of a wait and see approach. He's very calculated in terms of what they do technologically, and it's really easy to get sort of caught up in AI and ML, and the automated, and programmatic and everything and just start launching stuff willy-nilly and they don't do that. His comment, I think, in the presentation was, "Look, when the clients are bringing out the pitch forks, that's usually about the time that we should building and launching products." I appreciate that approach. Chad: I don't... 100% agree on that one. Long list of quick shoutouts, just so that you guys know, you feel free on LinkedIn or Twitter to follow us or connect with us. Will Capper over at Direct Apply, Karyn Lurie at Live Hired, James Anderson at Peachy Mondays, yes, that's a company. Mike Ferlaino, I think it is, over at Zip, and a bunch of people this week, actually connected. That happens all the time. I don't give enough shoutouts to that, so I wanted to be able to say, "Feel free, we love the engagement." Joel: Absolutely. Shoutout to the Job Board Doctor. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Who's been quiet for a while. Chad: He was napping. Joel: He came out of the woodwork and enjoyed last week's commentary on Paul Forrester and some other things, so Doctor, good to have you back, shoutout to you, Brother. Chad: Shoutout to Kristi Robinson. So she is the head of TA from Esurance. Joel: Well, hello, Mrs. Robinson. Chad: Hello, Mrs. Robinson. Yeah, so she actually did a pod with us. We're going to be launching that who knows, maybe in the next month or so but really appreciate her coming on and after listening, it was hilarious, because she agreed to come on the show, and then I asked her, "Have you ever heard the show?" She just kind of looks at me. I'm like, "Okay, go listen to a show before you get on." Joel: Did you pick the show that she listened to? Chad: Yeah, I did. Joel: Oh you did, okay. Chad: Yeah, it was one of the more- Joel: It was the CareerBuilder, WWE segment that got her giggling. Chad: And so that set the bar pretty high. [crosstalk 00:07:56] So anyway, we had a blast with that. Joel: Adam at Applichat, Chad, that guy just cracks me up. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: His firing squad drop this week. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Needless to say, we have opposing opinions on his business and what he's doing, but that kid just cracks me up every time I see his picture. So, Adam, here's to you, Buddy, shoutout. Chad: Yeah. Not about what he's doing. I love what he's doing, and I love that he's a 22 year old kid, starting a company. Oh my god, it's amazing. Joel: Yeah, we just love that he's a 22 Irish kid and living in Mexico City. Chad: But I felt it was my obligation to be able to- Joel: Sure. Chad: You'll hear it on the firing squad. Joel: Father figure in full effect with Chad Sowash. Chad: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Topics, you think we're ready for topics? Joel: Let's do the show, Man. Chad: Okay. So we're going to jump into the iCIMS round-up. Joel: Sure. Chad: And as, pretty much when we got to Scottsdale, obviously it's an entirely different feel than going to New Jersey. Joel: A little bit, you think? You think? Chad: So iCIMS making that big change and they've got beautiful headquarters, right? Making that big change and then also really melding their clients with us, the quote, unquote analysts. Joel: Yep. Chad: I thought that was really cool because we had an opportunity at lunch and breakfast and at drinks to talk to their clients and not just about what they're doing, but also about the content that was happening on stage. It was more of an immersive type of experience, as opposed to how it was in last year's. Joel: Sure. Analysts get tired of hearing each other talk. It's good to have a second opinion on some of this stuff. Chad: Yep. Joel: Obviously, they survey the attendees and we'll see if they cross the stream again next year. But I would be surprised if the employers don't prefer an intimate meeting with just them as opposed to loud mouth analysts and opinionated bloggers and podcasters. Chad: Yeah, I don't know. Okay, we'll figure it out, we'll see. Joel: We'll figure it out. Chad: We'll see how it turns out next year. Joel: Yes, if we're invited back, we'll see, which his very much in limbo at the moment. Chad: Yeah, I think Susan's already said, "You're not allowed." Joel: Yeah, I'm pretty much blackballed from iCIMS events. Chad: One of the cool stats that they shared with us, and we're going to have to get deeper into this, is that it's $680 per day, per job that is open for a company. That's an average that they've been able to pull together with their clients. I thought that was awesome because when we're talking about talent acquisition, and we're talking about the actual company's bottom line, we don't talk enough about numbers. And the bottom line. This is actually a figure that, let's figure out how they came up with it, but it's a figure we can start taking to the C-suite and saying, "Hey, this is what you're losing because you're not doing X, Y, and Z." Joel: Yeah. It reminded me of the UNLEASH panel where Sainsbury, I forget his name, mentioned- Chad: Chris Wray. Joel: You're numbers guy's your best friend and if you want to get a seat at the table, bring them along. To me, this is iCIMS giving you some ammunition to go to the C-suite and get a voice in terms of dollars and cents for getting HR at the table. Chad: I think that was $147 million dollars that Chris Wray, over at Sainsbury's actually had calculated that their candidate experience could cost them that amount of money in consumer goods because they are a grocery store. Joel: Your memory is better than mine, we'll just go with that. We'll go with that. Chad: That is amazing. But again, those are the conversations we need to have. Those are business conversations. Joel: Yep. Chad: Not the cost-per-hire bullshit that a CEO doesn't know about or even care about. They need to know how much money they're losing on a daily basis from a production standpoint, what have you, and also from a consumer goods and services standpoint, from experience. Joel: Yep. Another standout highlight for me during this event was, I had talked about Bullhorn's new marketplace in last week's show and I have a strong opinion on making people pay to be on the platform. iCIMS was very quick to respond to say that theirs is free, which it hasn't always been. I think that's somewhat of a new thing but when you get someone like iCIMS, which is big, it's a huge ATS, say, "We're going to allow people in free," the only hurdle they have to clear is, they actually have to have an iCIMS client using their product. Which I think is a fair hurdle that people should have to clear. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But, to me, this says to every other ATS out there like, "Hey, we appreciate the fact that start ups can make apps on our platform. You should take some of the barriers out of your, whether it's pricing, whatever it is, to get people, enable people to put products and services on their platform is a fantastic thing." I also think, you know you and I talk about the one platform to rule them all and it's hard to think, "Oh, Google's going to be the one platform, or LinkedIn and Microsoft." But when you start talking about an ATS platform where every third party service that you use and enjoy is on that one platform, maybe changing your mind that there can be a one-stop shop, as long as the platform is robust and everyone's welcome. Chad: Yeah, I think their unified platform, so this marketplace is pretty awesome because like you'd said, they have made the only barrier to entry is that you're working with one of their clients. At that point, this becomes a awesome strategic play for M&A. You have all of these companies, whether they're start ups, not start ups, to be able to get into the iCIMS platform in a standard integration, or a prime integration. I would definitely say if you can get to the prime integration, get there because you're sharing much more data, and they can see. Especially if you're looking to get acquired but yeah, overall, I just think it's incredibly smart. Chad: From the start ups we've talked about, or we've talked to, over the years, we've always said, "Get these integrations. Get them in deep." This is an awesome example of exactly what we've been saying. They're monitoring how you are doing. Joel: Yep. Going back to my comment about Colin being very prudent in terms of what they launch, the app store enables them to see what's growing, what's successful, what clients want, and enables iCIMS, in this case, to make an acquisition as opposed to building it themselves. To me, that's a sound strategy. We saw that with TextRecurit, we saw that with Jibe, this past year. That's, to me, a smart idea and it makes allowing people to put apps on your site or on your platform for free that much smarter because it's insight into your next acquisition and your next growth strategy. Chad: Right, right. I think around the programmatic, companies don't really understand it. Which is why they go to their agencies to do this. They're not going to come out with the pitchforks like you were saying. I think this is an entirely different kind of an anomaly to their current strategy, where hey, the people will vote on it and what not. Well, they don't even know what it is and it's out there. But it can save them a shit ton of cash. I think this could be a great opportunity for them to standardize programmatic in a core platform. I think, I really think that their strategy is sound, no question. But you have to take a look at some of those anomalies that are big out there. Joel: Yeah, plus no one loves data like you do. It's one thing to hear people like us say, "This is the future." It's another thing to say, "Hey, based on our marketplace, here is the future and here's what we should get involved in." Chad: Yeah. Yeah. I do love that. Joel: I will also mention that if you're ever at the Four Seasons in Scottsdale, make sure you have the carne asada because it's amazing. Chad: It is freaking amazing. Joel: I've had some beef in my life and this stuff was very nice. Chad: The Ignite UX is another, well, UI for their user experience, is another big change. Some of the analysts weren't really big on it. I can understand from the standpoint of usability, just as long as they aren't adding clicks, just to make it more pretty. That makes more sense. I don't think they're doing that. I could be 100% wrong, but I do... back in my quote, unquote, short applicant tracking system life, when Wow employers, one of the worst names ever, came out as an ASP, one of the very first ASP applicant tracking systems, I went to a client. Thing was set up to look like Microsoft, Outlook, kind of like Microsoft products, which really were ugly as fuck. Joel: Sure. Chad: I went to a big perspective client that we're going to hopefully drop a big contract on, and they said the usability was great, the thing that really sucked was, it was hard on the eyes. To be able to have a system that you're looking at eight hours a day, or maybe even more? Joel: Sure. Chad: That actually comes into, that comes to impact the decision. I, until that point, never thought about really being in a system that long, and I think this is a great decision for them. What do you think? Joel: Yeah, I agree, updating. Let's agree, iCIMS has been around for a long time. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: I mean, they've never been trailblazers in design, to say the least. But in addition to the recruiter side of it, I think rethinking what the job seeker's experience is is even that much more important because as consumers, good design is the lowest bar that you need to clear. If the representation of companies' career sites is shit, then people's opinion of the company site, as well as your platform, is going to be shit. The redesign was welcome but I also think a necessity in this world that we live in, of everything has to be fucking Uber, everything has to be Airbnb, everything has to be cutesy and easy and linear, as Colin, I think, mentioned. Everything is, "You can only do this, and you can only do this," and then go to another page and you can only do this. But it has to look good and they've made strides to do that, which is great. Chad: Yeah, I think Ron asked a good question. The current president and interim CEO, he asked, "Who has a great experience out there that we should look at?" I mean, we all just kind of thought, "Yeah, what does look good?" Uber was one of those, Lyft was one of those, because it is fairly simple, but thinking about the actual user experience that you do have, and enjoying that experience, what platforms do you use? I'd like to hear from our listeners on that one. Joel: Yeah, and particularly mobile. I mean, more and more job search and interaction and engagement is mobile, so making sure that experience is kick ass is really important. Chad: Indeed. Joel: Indeed goes gig, maybe. Chad: Indeed goes... so we've talked about this a little bit. We kind of saw this happening with SYFT. Joel: Yep. And we've seen Indeed throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall in the past year. Which- Chad: They have to. Joel: To their credit, good. Chad: They have to and good for them. Joel: Their forefathers did not do similarly when Indeed was kicking their ass, so good for them. But yeah, spotted by our buddy Chris Russell, since June of this year, Indeed quietly launched Gigs.Indeed.com. No announcement, we assume, it's just sort of a test thing. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I don't know how he got wind of it, although he's always sticking his nose in places he shouldn't. It's by no means an Upwork, Fiverr sort of platform, or what you think of a gig site would be. It really sort of a job board with jobs that are sort of historically thought of as gig jobs. Dishwashers, real estate agents, things like that. Also, there are very few jobs on it. Literally, less than 1000. So this is either somebody throwing shit, or as Chris speculates in his post, that with the acquisition of SYFT, maybe this is part of a bigger thing that Indeed will launch at some point in terms of taking on the gig economy. We'll have to watch that, but they've definitely launched it. It's not on a weird URL or anything. I mean, it's on Indeed, so this is something to watch into the next year. Chad: We will be watching. Joel: Do you think it's a smart move? Chad: Yeah, I think it's always a smart move to take a look at the different ways people are working. Joel: Yep. Chad: Whether its helping somebody find a side hustle, or whatever it is, I think it's a good idea, especially if you're in the world of work. They have been really focused on FTE, your traditional types of jobs. I think it's smart for them to do that, especially, again, if you have a platform like SYFT, this is going to be, this is really going to be how I would assume you start to transform Indeed into something entirely different, which would be really cool. Joel: Yeah. To me, it'll be interesting. I think this is definitely somewhere that they're going to go, whether or not it's a full-on, "We make, we pay them, and you put money in to leverage workers," whether or not they go full bore into like Upwork competition, or Snag, which we've talked about before. Chad: Right. Joel: I think it's to be, will be interesting, and I think secondarily, do they keep the SYFT brand and grow it out to this new platform? Or do they just take the tech from SYFT and put it on this new gigs.indeed.com URL? Chad: Which is... it looks like it's in Beta. It has the basic search, kind of like browse functionality for specific types of like home healthcare and that kind of thing. Joel: It's bare bone shit. Chad: Yeah, it is. Joel: Yeah. Chad: It's the very start of something that might never see really the light of day. Joel: Yes, it may never be promoted but, to me, this is a place they probably should go. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's a place where, if you're looking at, "Where is Google for jobs not going to go?" It's probably competing with Upwork and Uber and things like that. From that perspective, it's probably a good strategic move to get into the gig economy. Chad: Excellent. Who do we need to hear from? Joel: Who do we need to hear from? Chad: I think we'd need to hear from Sovren. Joel: I love Sovren. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. Now, based on that technology, comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit-to-job and just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: We're back. Joel: We're back. Chad: Last week on the weekly show, I actually asked, because of the whole Google coming into the space- Joel: I feel like not having beers for this show is a bad thing, but I guess it's too late at this point. Chad: They came into this space like mad men. I mean, they had three products and they were slamming them down. Joel: Triple threat. Chad: Yeah, and then, now, they pull Hire off the table, even though we hear that it was a good, if not great product. Joel: Sure, go back and listen to our interview. With- Chad: Yeah. Framestore. Joel: Yeah, Framestore loved it. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Loved it. Chad: It was a product they were really excited to be in. Joel: Yep. Chad: That won't exist next year at this time. Joel: Correct. Chad: My question was, I'm not really feeling that much from Google for jobs or anything like that. I might have spurred Chris on, I don't know, but Chris Russell then wrote a post, and he was speaking with some staffing companies and some marketing companies and what not. Joel: And Chris has his own sites, as well that he monitors. Chad: Yeah. So he had this one quote from Matt [Lozar 00:24:59], friend of the show from Haley Marketing. He said, "He can confirm that our clients for Google for Jobs, peaked in July but has decreased the past few months." Could just be cyclical at the end of the year. Joel: Or cyclical. Chad: Yeah, cyclical, cyclical. It's about three percent for traffic source. Kind of getting some inputs from organizations who have multiple clients I thought was pretty interesting. Joel: Yeah. All the job boards that pay attention to Chris and love Chris love hearing these kinds of posts. Chad: Oh yeah, I'm sure they do. Joel: For sure. However- Chad: They're not going to enjoy hearing this. Joel: Colin Day here at iCIMS gave a keynote or presentation yesterday and one of my questions to him was, "Look, last year you were super bullish on Google for Jobs. What's your opinion today? Are you still bullish on what they're doing?" His comment was, "Absolutely." Basically, what he's seeing is a slow march, Google for Jobs keeps getting bigger and bigger and more important, in terms of traffic driven. He said they'll go in, look at the top sites, and a year ago, they were number six. Then, a few months later, like, they population up to number five, and so forth. Susan Vitale, CMO, mentioned after he spoke that Google for Jobs is now the number three referral for jobs on their clients' websites. This is real data, this isn't speculative. Followed by LinkedIn and then followed by number one Indeed. Joel: But, rest assured, from the ATS perspective, an iCIMS perspective, Google is marching on this steady growth for Google for Jobs. My personal theory is that job seekers are learning to go directly to the company site because more times than not if they go to a job site, they have to go back to the company site, anyway. So the behavior of Google for Jobs users is, "I'm going to find out what the direct link to the employer is, and I'm going to click on that to apply, which wold lead to less traffic to the job boards, which is primarily, I'm guessing, who Chris Russell is talking to. Chad: Well, he did talk to a staffing company and one thing you have to remember is that early on, not a whole lot of companies got into Google for Jobs. Whether they were vendors, or staffing companies, or what have you. If there's a small pool of actual jobs, you're going to get a greater share of the traffic. Fairly simple. What's happening is, all the mark-ups and everything like that, iCIMS gets involved, they throw thousands of customers into that. I mean, if you're seeing a drop, that drop could be, that's organic. I mean, because you have more in the system. Just makes sense. Not to mention, I really believe that too many companies are looking for that silver bullet where they don't have to buy Indeed anymore. That's just not going to happen. Especially right out of the gate. Chad: Is Google for Jobs something that you should be involved in? Of course. But you also need to take a look at these other programmatic platforms and look at different ways to diversify your traffic because if you're not doing that, and you're just waiting for that one big site to come up, all you're doing is continuing the cycle of dependency where, before it was Monster, and that was the number one. It was like, "Oh, no, no, no." Then CareerBuilder, and then, "No, no, no." It's like, stop doing this to yourself. Joel: Yeah. I believe the decrease in traffic to job boards is part of Google's master plan of like no click search. Chad: Tarquin's here, we'll ask him. He won't answer. Joel: He won't answer us. The writing on the wall, in terms of if you're a job site, to say, "How do I get traffic in more, different unique ways?" You should have been doing that long before this, but that is really important now and underscored because what happens if Google starts aligning themselves with all the ATSes and saying, "How do we build one click apply right directly to the ATS?" So then I'm a job seeker, I'm on Google for Jobs, I'm looking at the entire job, and then there's like a one click button right into the ATS that I can start. I can have a Google account profile and then that sends my stuff directly to the ATS, directly to the company. At that point, the job boards are severely screwed because you're not going to the job board site, you're not applying through the job board site, you're just staying on Google, and applying directly from them. Joel: I think that's probably something that they've thought about. Chad: I don't think they have. I don't. I think that it all comes down to the best experience overall, and they're tracking the experience. So if the experience is better on a job site, then that job site's going to rank better because it's all about the experience, no matter what. The content is the content, but the experience is entirely different. I believe what job boards, job sites, whatever the fuck you want to call them, what they should be doing right now, is focusing on their experience. Not having candidates go through hoop after hoop after hoop, but making it a great experience for them, and that's how you win. Chad: I don't personally believe that theory. Joel: Just build an awesome virtual reality solution and people will flock to your job site. I also think there's going to be a lot of anti-trust issues. Chad: That's what Chris said. Joel: Google's moving beyond... this is a bigger Google story than Jobs. Chad: But this is search. Joel: Yes. Google's anti-trust headaches have mostly been pay-per-click. But it's moving into... they're screwing over Yelp, they're screwing over any weather site, rental site, reservations. No one's going to these sites anymore because Google has all the content on Google. If there's anti-trust that comes out and the courts decide that Google can't just take site's contents, and just make it available on Google without having attribution or sending people to the sites of origin, then that's not going to happen on Google for Jobs. But if they don't get anti-trust cases, yeah, we'll see what happens. But in a perfect world, I don't think Google wants you to leave Google ever. Chad: No, but I also think that their big play for defeating anti-trust in this space, was killing Google Hire. Not being that full system, that one system that rules them all, because that is a monopoly at that point. Right now they can go back and say, "You know what? We could've gone there, as a matter of fact we were, so we stopped, and we're just focusing on what we do, and what we do is search." Joel: "We're just making publicly available content-" Chad: All we're doing. Joel: "Available on our platform." Chad: That's exactly right. Joel: Yep. Chad: Talking about anti-trust is... one company that I don't think comes up enough, they're smartly, I think, dodging a lot of this, maybe because of- Joel: They have experience. Chad: They do. They do have experience. Joel: In anti-trust. Chad: Microsoft is eating Slack- Joel: Yeah. Chad: Like a fucking boa constrictor, Man. Just slowly and just choking them to death, and then they're just going to eat them whole. That's it. Joel: Yep. So, a little context here, we talked a little while ago about Microsoft teams surpassing the traffic in terms of daily users of Slack. Slack has about 12 million users, at the time when we reported it, Microsoft had surpassed them and gotten 13 million. It just came out recently that they're at the 20 million users mark- Chad: 13 million wasn't that long ago. Joel: Yeah, it wasn't that long ago, so, yeah. If I'm Slack, it's going to be really challenging. But Microsoft, anti-trust issues, I don't know. Facebook has a competing product, as well. It's not as if people don't have options in terms of messaging at work. But in terms of Slack, Man, that's a tough battle to fight because Microsoft product is integrated into companies already- Chad: Yes. Joel: It's flip a switch, now we have a Slack-like product. Certainly there'll be a good group of rebellious companies that say, "We're never going Microsoft." But in terms of growth, good God, Slack has got its work cut out for it. If the stock continues to dive, like it did this week, somebody's going to come in and grab them up at clearance prices. That could happen next year. Chad: Sit back and wait. Watch the fricking Microsoft train roll and just watch that fricking stock tank, and then wait for the clearance items, Man. Joel: That's right. My prediction of Amazon buying Slack could still happen, Folks. Chad: Could still happen. Joel: Could still happen. Chad: Excellent. So I think what we're going to do, is we're going to take a little time for JobAdX, and then we'll be right back, and we're going to talk about LinkedIn, and what is LinkedIn doing, or asking of the Supreme Court? Joel: Yikes. Chad: What the? JobAdX: Nope. Nah. Not for me. All these jobs look the same. Next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just half-heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets and templated job descriptions? Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people, and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection, and reducing candidate drop off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel, begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team? JobAdX: Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@jobadx.com. Attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Chad: And we're back. Joel: We're back. Chad: LinkedIn asks the Supreme Courts of United States, a.k.a. SCOTUS, to look at the hiQ ruling. Joel: Yep. Chad: LinkedIn plans to ask the United States' Supreme Court to review a ruling that requires the company to allow its site to be scraped by analytics company hiQ Labs and, just for everybody else that's out there, probably about 10,000 other small companies who do the same damn thing. Not the same thing, but scraping-wise. Back to this, the Microsoft-owned social networking service disclosed its plans, in court papers filed Thursday with the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, who they haven't had a good track record with- Joel: Nope. Chad: LinkedIn is also asking the Ninth Circuit to pause the lawsuit until the Supreme Court decides whether to hear the case because they know they're going to get smacked down like a bitch by the Ninth. The battle between the two companies began in May 2017 when LinkedIn demanded that hiQ stop scraping data, and hiQ is the David in this David and Goliath. I mean, they literally... I can't imagine how many funds they've had to put out to be able to try to fight this over two years. Joel: Two questions. One is, "Does the Supreme Court take this on?" I'm not enough of a legislative nerd to know if they will. Obviously, in this country we know that the Supreme Court takes on really big issues, really big questions, and tries to answer those questions based on the Constitution. That's the first question. I tend to think that this, if it's framed as, "This is online data. What happens to it? Who has access to it?" It is a big enough question that the Supreme Court would listen to this case. The second thing is, "Will they win?" If it does go to the Supreme Court. You have to look at the make-up of the court. Very conservative, siding with Big Business. I think you could probably make that argument and in that world, I think LinkedIn probably has a pretty good chance to win the case. Joel: I do think that whatever ruling, if they take this on, is going to have widespread, very widespread implications to sites and scraping and who owns data and server traffic and how all that stuff is organized. If they take it on, it's going to be a super interesting thing to watch heading into next year. I'm kind of hoping that it does go to Supreme Court. Chad: I kind of do, too. I think it'll go the other way, and here's why. Small business. This is how small businesses actually... they're not using LinkedIn's data because that's not LinkedIn's data. That is the candidate's data. Therefore, they're actually using that data to be able to, again, whether in hiQ's standpoint predict certain things or what have you, this could perspectively negatively impact thousands of small businesses. Chad: If you go into the Supreme Court with, again, more of a conservative panel of judges, then you can really say, "Hey, look, we're talking about a Microsoft-backed company." We're talking about a huge, big corporation that is trying to stamp out not just one little guy, thousands of little guys. Joel: Yeah, I think that'll be a big question for the Supreme Court, is how does this stifle innovation? Chad: Yeah. Joel: We're looking at a world- Chad: Very much. Joel: Where a handful of tech companies are prime to basically own everything that innovation dies in that world. Chad: Take guys like SeekOut who just won our Death Match. Joel: Correct. Chad: Right? Joel: Correct. Impacts a lot of companies. Chad: Yeah. Joel: All over the place. I do hope this goes to the Supreme Court. I'll be watching it closely and then hats off to hiQ for, again, taking on this battle. Chad: Yes. Joel: I'm not sure how they're bankrolling the legal bills, but good for them for fighting this good fight. They may go down in history as a serious David to the Goliath of Microsoft and LinkedIn. Chad: If you're one of those small companies that is scraping data from LinkedIn, and you are not giving money to hiQ for this law, this court battle? Then, that's what you do right now. You give them a call, you write them a check because they are fighting for you, and your business livelihood. Joel: That's right. When you're making out the holiday cards to your VIPs and close friends this year, make sure you send hiQ a little love this holiday season in their fight against LinkedIn and Microsoft if you're in support of what they're doing. Chad: That being said, we out. Joel: We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to what's it called? PODCAST! with Chad, with Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts to people you don't even know, and yet, you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar. Blue. Nacho. Pepper jack. Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode and while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out. #LinkedIn #Microsoft #iCIMS #Indeed #GigEconomy #GoogleforJobs #Google #Slack #SCOTUS

Is it a chatbot? Is it a Facebook advertising platform? Is it bound for global domination? Well, let's not get carried away here, but Applichat brings its goods to the Firing Squad. To say Chad & Cheese are split on this one would be an understatement. Opinions clash on this episode for sure. Brought to you by Talroo. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides training and development to help your workplace leaders and employees integrate with and value people with disabilities. Chad: Talroo was focused on predicting, optimizing, and delivering talent directly to your email or ATS. Joel: So it's totally data driven talent attraction, which means the Talroo platform enables recruiters to reach the right talent at the right time and at the right price. Chad: Guess what the best part is? Joel: Let me take a shot here. You only pay for the candidates Talroo delivers. Chad: Holy shit. Okay, so you've heard this before. So if you're out there listening in podcast land and you are attracting the wrong candidates, and we know you are, or you feel like you're in a recruiting hamster wheel and there's just nowhere to go, right, you can go to talroo.com/attract. Again, that's talroo.com/attract and learn how Talroo can get you better candidates for less cash. Joel: Or just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Talroo logo. I'm all about the simple. Chad: You are a simple man. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to put their recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids. Chad and Cheese podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Oh yeah. Firing squad is back. Mark Cuban ain't got shit on us. Chad: That's right, bitches. Joel: What's up, Chad? Chad: What's up, Cheese? Joel: I feel like it's been a while. My gun's a little rusty. Chad: It sounds like a personal problem. Joel: I did have my vasectomy recently. Chad: My shit's all oiled up and ready to go. Joel: You're all lubricated. Nice. Nice. I've got to get that going. All right, on today's Firing Squad, please welcome everybody, Apple iChat, or I mean Applichat, or I mean apply chat. We'll get to that later, but Adam Chamber from startup Applichat, I'll go with that, is here straight out of Belfast, calling in from Mexico. Adam, welcome to the show. Adam: Hola, chicos. Good to be here. Thank you. Joel: What the fuck did you just say? Adam: You don't want to know. Joel: You fecker. Adam: Fecker. Joel: I was going to ask Adam what his favorite Irish whiskey was, but from his LinkedIn profile he looks about 13 so I won't ask. Chad: Which means he's been drinking for about 10 years. Joel: That's why he's in Mexico. Adam: Daintily poised on 10 emoji cushions right now. Joel: Yeah, that's right. Baby bottle. That's what he had growing up in Belfast. No. Welcome to the show, Adam. Adam: Thank you very much. It's good to be here. I've been listening profusely. Perhaps too much. Joel: Long time listener, first time start up on the show. So Adam, give us a little bit about you, which I'm guessing is about two years of professionalism. And then Chad will describe the rules to you. And then we'll get into it. Adam: Sweet. Okay. So, hi, my name's Adam. I'm 22 years old. I left university with thinning hair and big ambitions, but I couldn't find a girlfriend and I didn't really fit in back at home. So I decided to start a business and move to Mexico. So I'm here, single, bilingual, ready to mingle with some HR podcasters. Yeah, marketing's always interested me for about 10 years since I was selling virtual football card in school. Now I'm applying the skills I've learned over that time to make recruitment less stressful, because life's too short for wasting time on boring hiring processes. Joel: You are living the gen Z dream basically. I'm a little bit jealous, got to know. All right. Adam: What gen are you? Joel: I'm a gen X-er as this chat. A little known fact about us is we are a day apart. He is one day older than me officially. Adam: Okay. Older and wiser. Joel: Yeah, so you would have been born in what year? My math is not good. Adam: 1997. Joel: '97 very nice. All right, Chad. Well for being on the firing squad, tell him what he's about to win. Chad: All right, Adam, you will have two minutes to pitch Applichat. At the end of those two minutes, you will hear the bell. Then Joel and I will hit you with rapid fire Q and A. If your answers start to suck or they ramble or they've just taken too long Joel's going to hit here with the crickets. This is your signal to tighten up your game. At the end of Q and A you will receive one of these three. Either a big applause, get that bank account ready. Golf clap, you're getting there, but you can do much better. Or, this is what you don't want, the firing squad, hit the bricks, close up shop, pull out the drawing board because that shit needs to go home. That's the firing squad. Joel: Grab a Corona, get a siesta and reevaluate things. Chad: That's right. Are you ready? Joel: Any questions? Adam: Yeah. What sort of guns are you using? Chad: Those are M240s. Adam: I see you brought it. Okay. Joel: Do you know your guns? What, were you in the IRA or something? What? Adam: No, I was a bomb maker. Anyway, let's go. All right. Joel: You guys are so quick. All right. Are you ready to pitch your product? Adam: Absolutely. Joel: All right. In three, two... Adam: Okay, I'm on Instagram every day, know the job boards and LinkedIn combined, but finding and hiring them has been historically difficult for recruiters. Successful odds require experience and budget per targeting leads to hoards of unqualified applicants. And crucially, many recruiters aren't aware that 98% of Facebook's ad revenue comes from mobile clicks. Making people leave the platform. If you're a normal mobile optimized career site turns otherwise interested talent away to the next cut picture. This raises cost per application and it loses you revenue and opportunity on the world's largest pool of passive candidates. Adam: That's where Applichat comes in. We help high volume recruiters source automatically pre-screen and allocate candidates directly to their ATS. Our solution uses Facebook ads and Messenger to provide a seamless conversational application without disrupting your charge workflow. So I'm going to talk about the process now. Number one, we set up six creative ads which provoke the engagement, which Facebook's algorithm favors. Rather than saying we're hiring, all ads must focus on the audience's peons and tell their own story. Number two, all the clickers are introduced to the role of Messenger while simultaneously being pre-screened by the talking job ad. Adam: The chat bot messaging and follow ups makes it impossible for basically unqualified people to waste time on applying. And it sends automated follow ups to the 90% who usually don't apply immediately. If they are qualified, they can then make an application through Messenger. They can book an interview straight into recruiters' calendars or be sent to a prefilled application form. It all takes place on the same interface where people are used to informal emotional interactions such as love, joy, longing, desire, the reasons people change jobs. Adam: So our best results have seen 70 HR staff free to do more productive work, 50% drop in cost per hire, and a decrease in interview no show by 40%. And since launching six months ago I've learned a lot, and we've been working really hard for handle full of clients based in the Philippines. Joel: Thank you, Adam. Chad: Thank you, Adam. Joel: For our listeners, where can they find out more? Adam: So if you want to find out more, go to appli.chat/cheese and you could get a 1,000 phones, $1 referral bonus. Joel: And spell that for our listeners. Adam: A-P-P-L-I dot C-H-A-T forward slash cheese. Joel: Right on, Chad. Get him. Chad: Giving them the cheese. So I heard something in there around anti ghosting magic. Tell me a little bit about your anti ghosting magic. We've heard it from other chat platforms, but what makes yours different and why? Was it 40% that you were cutting on the no show rate? Tell us a little bit about that. Adam: Yeah, so because we're using Facebook Messenger, people are always in the inbox. And compared to email, it's about four times the open rate. So to decrease that interview no show we just sent every couple of days or so updates, help, and advice about the interview. So instead of kind of forgetting about it or disregarding it, people are constantly being checked in with, being made to feel that they were valued and that they should actually go to the interview. So yeah, it's quite make people happy and what actually do- Chad: So the platform is predicated on Facebook Messenger only, is that correct? Adam: Yeah. So right now it's focusing just on Facebook Messenger, just to keep things kind of hyper focused, kind of use that as a springboard in the future to expand into text. Chad: Okay. So what differentiates you from the other bigger players that do Facebook already, but they also branch out and they do SMS, they do WhatsApp, they do all these other social messaging mediums? What differentiates you and why should a company come to you over them? Adam: So the major differentiator is we run the ads for recruiters. Recruitment job ads on Facebook have the lowest click through rate of any category and 50% less than real estate. And the problem is just recruiters don't know how to do it. They don't know what the algorithm favors and they post stuff which doesn't get promoted by Facebook ahead of more engaging advertisements. So where other platforms simply make the chat bot, we take a bit of the sourcing burden on Facebook and actually manage your ad campaign for you. Chad: So I feel weird that a gen Z is relying so much on Facebook for their business. I feel like I'm talking to an old gen X-er like us. Do you feel like you're putting too much into Facebook? Don't you fear that from a demographic standpoint younger people aren't using Facebook? And is that a major threat to what you're doing? Adam: So I think younger people still definitely are using Facebook, especially Facebook Messenger. A while back at university, everyone was deleting it to focus on their studies, then they went and redownloaded it a week later. But they still have Messenger because they want to talk to their friends and they're not going to delete their friends from their lives. I'm kind of focusing in a lot on the Philippines especially, and there about 90% of internet users have Facebook. Their largest is the 25 year olds generation Z demographic. So I mean it is definitely a risk using Facebook as the center of the business and I've been told that by other people, but for now I'm kind of happy to use that as a launch pad because it's such a big opportunity and no one's really focusing on providing sourcing solutions on it either. Chad: You mentioned a lot of countries, are you targeting a certain geographical area? Is it something for everyone? Marketing wise, what's sort of the focus for you? Adam: Yeah, so the focus at the moment is the Philippines. It's kind of the candidate reason and the market reason. So Philippines, we spend more time online than any other nationality. As I said, they've got a national average age of 25 compared to 30 in the USA. Because more than 90% of the internet users are on Facebook it's a big opportunity to start streamlining the recruitment process of all the outsourcing companies in the Philippines. So the outsourcing industry is like call centers, customer service, and they're expected to need to hire a million people in the next five years. And they have a massive problem of pre-screening. So everyone wants to apply to these jobs because they're so well paying and above the national average. So I kind of see myself as coming in and raising the amount of people who are actually successful from applying there. Chad: And what percent speak Gaelic? Adam: Well I don't even speak Gaelic, so I couldn't tell you. Chad: So are you focusing on staffing companies as your core client? I mean, who is your target in the Philippines? If you're looking to go after companies, are they companies? Are they recruiters? Who's the product actually for? Who are you trying to sell to? Adam: So the industry is called BPO, which stands for business process sourcing. Essentially Americans are paying the Philippines to do some of their kind of less skilled jobs, unskilled jobs, but they just want cheaper labor. So the industry is worth several billion dollars and it's kind of on top by companies like mine which provides chat bot solutions. So it's really those BPOs. And the good thing is they're not so risk averse as I find staffing companies in the UK to be. So they've been founded by American - Australian entrepreneurs here just going into a new market and they're kind of more open to taking advantages to stuff like this. Chad: Instead of going straight to the middleman, which is the BPO, why not start hitting the RPOs in the US who aren't as risk averse as they are in the UK or the EU? Why don't you start going after the big pile of money? Because this is where the money's at. Obviously you can go to the Philippines, and obviously they've got a great penetration rate for Facebook, but is that where the money is? And is that where the longterm strategy should be for you to be able to help an already outprocessing type of strategy versus going straight to where the money is in the first place? Adam: Yeah. That's a really good point, actually. The way I saw it was it was so well received whenever I went to Philippine and companies and the EP was in the Philippines that this would be a really good kind of testing ground because there's going to be so many applicants going for these roles. So it's more of a low hanging fruit for me, the American RPO market. That is on the roadmap when the company grows a little bit. But yeah, it was just sort of a matter of low hanging fruit to be honest with you. Chad: So what about this building of ads? Obviously recruiters can't do ads. They're, not marketing professionals to try to train them up to do this. It's just not what they're built to do. And in most cases it's not why they got into the job in the first place. So from my understanding, it sounds like you actually build ads. How many ads do you build per job and how is that facilitated in Facebook? Adam: So as I said, we start out with six ads, and the point of that is to find which one works the best. So the three different combinations of images and text and then three different audiences. We would go onto their Facebook ads manager, create those, connect them to the chat bot, and then after a few days or so we'd cut the two worst performers. After another few days we cut the two worst four performers, until we have the best performing ads. And this is where it's really different from programmatic where you've maybe only just put one ad up. On Facebook you really want to be testing to find out what your audience is and what your message is. That's what we focus on. So we take off the testing burden. Joel: So these aren't job descriptions, these are actual advertisements? Adam: No, these are like stories. These are life stories. Because I mean when people are on Facebook, you need to catch their eye. I mean, people scroll on average 73 feet a day. If I see a job description saying money, location, I'm less likely to click on it. If I see you can change your life by doing X, Y, Z- Joel: So these are stories. You're not doing the traditional feed ads on Facebook, correct? Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Because they're too boring. They're very boring. Joel: And then do the ads direct people who slide up to automatically start chatting with a company? Or is it a landing page? What's the process? Adam: So it's an automated chat bot, because if you click on just apply now that's going to take you to the career site. And a little many of them are mobile optimized, especially with the big fortune 500s. And my target market with Philippines, they're disgusting. It's just a massive but it's horrible. Joel: It keeps the user in Facebook. It doesn't take them to the company website or something, which I think is traditionally what our audience thinks about when they think about advertising. This is simply like let's start a conversation now and then there's automated chat and then that person becomes an applicant at some point. Adam: Yeah. So it's like a congruency between them seeing the ad and them talking through the Messenger. It's a much more seamless experience, and before they know it they started a tentative application. Joel: Do you think you're more of an ad agency than you are a chat bot? Because it seems to me like the most important thing you do is help people advertise on Facebook and then you're just using the chat bot or the Messenger solution to then create applicants for companies. Am I off base there, or am I right? Adam: Yeah, well it's a bit of both. So we have some people who they can get leads in using the ads, especially the ones in the Philippines where everyone wants to do the job. And how many have ones who can't source it all and these help with that. The thing, it's not a traditional ad agency because we use a lot of templates. So we kind of have a monster chat bot, which is then white labeled. And then we know what sort of messages work for the ads, so they're all sort of copied and pasted and then altered a little bit. So it's scalable. I'd say it's a scalable ad agency. Joel: And what kind of results are you getting on the ads, click through rates and whatnot? Adam: Okay, so I'll give you... Pardon? Joel: Yeah, go ahead. I'm looking for numbers or what kind of click through rates and engagement you get on these ads. Adam: Okay. So one company and 152 click the ad in one month and 88% percent of them were basically qualified. So 12% of people clicked, within 30 seconds they were told you're not suitable for this role. And that'll save them a lot of time of time. Of the 152, 13% of them applied, and we actually needed four hires. So from 152 there was four hires, and the span was about $200 on ads. Joel: Excellent. Thanks. Chad: So on your website it says your ATS is filled with dead leads. Is that really the case? Adam: Well, I would say that especially in the Philippines most companies they've had applicants who they forget about because they're not right at the time. And the thing with using the Messenger chat bot is we can actually communicate with the ATS so we can tag someone in the chat bot as being not suitable right now and then give them the offer to be looked into, like an automated sequence where they can receive free stuff basically. And the rule of that is just to keep them sort of active, so to speak. Chad: So the chat bot actually allows companies to prospectively... Companies have spent hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars on building a resume database that they never touch. And those leads in that database are pretty much a gold mine, probably a bigger gold mine than anywhere else because they've already paid for them. How can your platform... Or can your platform help them turn that atrophy database into a lead generation database? Adam: So today I've just been focusing on the people that I source, making them an active database. So the people from the ads continuing them on. What kind of put me off reactivating the database was there's a lot of people doing it. And also it starts that email. I'm kind of trying to focus on the chat aspect of this. I just want to be hyper focused, guys. Chad: Does it have to focus on email though? Adam: Well how else can you get them from... I mean you could.... Joel: And I'm curious sort of in light of that, retargeting, right? So you could certainly take all the emails and an ATS upload it to Facebook and then show the ad to those people. Is that something that you're doing? And then secondarily, are you putting any retargeting code on the career site so that people then see the ad when they go to Facebook after visiting and looking for jobs at a company? Adam: Yeah. So the first one, it's a little bit sketchy because they haven't opted in for that to happen. If the company has in their user agreement that they can use that for marketing, then it's okay. But I mean I didn't want to kind of break the rules so to speak without... Because the thing about using Facebook is you have to toe the line. If you don't you'll be kicked off. I kind of pride Applichat on being the most compliant agency in the space. And the second question, could you remind me what that was? Joel: So retargeting, so putting in a retargeting code on a career side and then seeing ads. Adam: Yeah, absolutely. So we put it on the application page of the form, which we are indeed linking to a form. And then they can see the ad. But usually we do it through Messenger so if they've got to a certain stage in Messenger we remind them through Messenger. Joel: So you're not putting retargeting code on the ATS or the career site, but you could do that in the future? Adam: Yeah. So we've done it with one client, so yeah, it's certainly possible. Joel: Okay. And then so keeping with Facebook, so your website says you capture a phone number and an email. Is that captured from the chat or are they asked to submit that information to you? In other words, are you capturing it sort of without them knowing just because they're connecting on Facebook or is that part of the chat process? Adam: Oh no. So it's all part of the candidate. Rather than scraping databases or reaching out to them cold on LinkedIn we give them the chance to submit that info. So what I ask is consent to our privacy policy by sending your email. And then the email address pops up as a quick reply. So that's just a little pop up. All they need to do is click a button and then they've given the email address and opted in at the same time. About 98% of people go past that step. Joel: All right. All right. I want to get in to some of the business perspective on this. You're promising a weekly video call with your customers. Is that scalable? Is that realistic? How does that work and will you keep doing it when you're super huge and famous? Adam: I'm famous now, mate. No, it's definitely not scalable. It's not scalable at all. Joel: So that will be eliminated from the website at some point? Adam: Yes, at some point. So the thing is at the start treating the clients really well so we have a good reputation. I mean there's still a lot of close contact because we're all about chatting, but I mean that will be taken out in the future. Joel: Do they like the video calls, or is that sort of bothersome for them? Adam: No. Well, the thing is not all of them take the weekly call. It's just on the table if they want to be kept up to date we do it. Because I'm just starting out I love it because it's talking to other business people in the same space and helping them. Joel: Yeah. Well, you're 22. The education is probably invaluable to you. Old people like us don't want to talk to anybody. So I'm curious, have you raised money? Are you looking to raise money? I mean, your contact us email on the website is your direct email address. So is this going to stay small? Do you want it to be big? Talk about that. Adam: Yeah. So in the next couple of years I don't plan to raise money. I want to keep it a kind of small agency where I work with contractors. We basically provide a really focused service to say 20, 30 clients. That's kind of just a personal choice for me where I want to see how the business starts to grow. And if it's something which is appealing then I'm going to take it to the next level and maybe seek a bit of funding. However, I'm thinking in two year blocks at the moment. Chad: A lifestyle game is not a bad game to play. On the website it actually says, "What you need is automation to do the heavy lifting." So what heavy lifting are you actually taking off the recruiter's shoulders? And how much time are you giving back to a recruiter in about a week? I mean, so if you take a look at just a week's time frame, how much time are you giving them back and where is it at? Adam: So for our clients, the main problem is prescreening on qualified candidates. So they would maybe get hundreds of people in each week and only 30% to 40% of them will be useful. What we do is automatically take those people out at the very early stages within one minute. So if it takes about a minute to chuck someone away and if they're doing say 100 of those a week, then that's 90 minutes a week. We have a client, they're a Chinese company, but they have an office in the Philippines and they move seven staff in the more human facing kind of different HR rules. So I guess with them we save several hours a week. The big part of it is taking automatable tasks out of recruiters' hands and letting them do stuff that they're trained to do and enjoy doing. Chad: Okay. So what's your end goal here? Are you looking at making just this a lifestyle business? You have 20 or 30 companies and maybe grow that to 50 over the next five years and just be happy with that? Or are you looking for more grander acquisition or growing into a platform? What are you looking for as a digital nomad? Adam: Okay. Yep. Well, personally for me, I would like to grow it to the point where I don't need to worry about money and I have an income that kind of makes anything possible for my lifestyle. So as you said, the nice point would be 30 to 40 clients and to be five or six contractors managing those accounts with me. Looking longterm, I would like to sell the business once it's got to that stage. So I mean I'm not thinking of put it on the stock market or trying to create a multimillion pound empire. For me, this is a lifestyle business, which I think can help a lot of people remove the stress from recruitment. Joel: So Adam, I'm going to let you out on this. Talk about pricing because one, I'm sure there's pricing for the service, but then you've got pricing for the advertisement and how much is the company spending? And I'm sure you have to go through a recommendation for how much they should spend. Is it pretty customizable per deal? Can you standardize pricing? Talk about that. Adam: Yeah, so it's a bit of both. It's $1,000 a month and then there's performance based add on. So that could range from $5 to $25 per application depending on what they're actually paying recruiters. So, for example, if a company wants to make 20 hires, maybe they need 200, 250 applicants. If we charge them $5 per applicant on top of our $1,000, and if they pay $1,000 for ads, that's $3,000 they've spent on 20 hires, which I think is a pretty good deal considering they're pan about 500 to 600. Joel: So they're paying for application, so they're not worrying about how much the advertising costs. You're just making sure that you're paying less for an applicant than they are. And Facebook is getting the difference, I guess. Adam: Yeah, pretty much. So the benchmark is what they're paying recruiters for the candidates. Joel: Okay. Adam: Yeah. Joel: So 1,000 and then 25 for every applicant that they want? Adam: I mean, it depends on the audience. So if they're targeting IT specialists, then that's going to be a higher cost per lead in terms of Facebook's charge. So then we'd raise the $5. Joel: So nurses would be more than, I don't know, servers or something? Adam: Yeah, more or less. Joel: Okay. All right. There it is. All right, Adam. We have come to the end of our Q and A and it's time for you to face the firing squad. Chad: Here it is. Adam: Yeah, that's good. Kill me. Joel: Irregardless of what kind of guns we're using, I'm going to go first. So I think that when we grade a company or give feedback or become critical, it's easy to get into the everyone should want to be super rich and famous and go IPO or be bought for $100 million. But I think that sometimes you should judge a company based on what they want to be. And the fact that you want to be this nomad going from country to country and doing what you do, not having staff, not raising money, a 30 40 company business is very doable, I would think. So I tend to come at this at critiquing you based on what you want to do. Joel: I think we're going to see a lot more businesses like this in the future, sort of these solopreneurs that get a niche. I think the fact that you're just the Philippines, I'm guessing there's not a lot of competition from there. I think Facebook is a little bit risky, but yet has more people on it than Christianity. So if you can help people figure out how to advertise on Facebook, which by the way is also Instagram and anything else Facebook owns, and then drive them into a chat experience, which becomes an application. They don't have to figure out the advertising, they don't have to post jobs. You take that process out for them. I think that's a pretty cool business. Joel: I think you probably will be acquired at some point. I think this is a really nice play for an agency to provide ads in a different way than maybe what they're doing today. I think that Facebook isn't going anywhere. I think your pricing is very competitive. You're a super young guy. My guess is this'll be something you do for five years and then you go off and do something else. But for me, are you going to be a $100 million dollar acquisition and stay in Mexico and retire? Probably not, but that's not what you're looking for. I think what you're doing is pretty cool. I think you're a pretty smart guy. I think for what you want the business to be, you're on the right track and from me you're going to get a rousing applause, man. I'm a little jealous. Adam: Come to Mexico. Joel: Let's see if Chad feels the same. Chad: Well Adam, I'd like to say we love chat bots. You listen to this show and you know we love chat bots because there are so many applications. I love the lifestyle business aspect. I love that. I also love that you understand the demos. You're in the Philippines because you know the penetration rate in the Philippines, and you also know the target of the BPOs. That to me is awesome. Here's the thing, it's kind of like a turn. It's either a lifestyle business or it's not, okay, because it's hard, not impossible, but very improbable to be both. To be able to focus and understand all the different markets, much like you do the Philippines right now, I think it's essential. Not just obviously UK staffing is pretty rigid and they're not going to pick this up, but who is and where's the money? Chad: So I think you've got a great incubator going on in the Philippines. Here's the big problem that I see. This is an easy model for companies like TMP or AIA who just bought Car, a company who does this very sort of thing and they can scale. Or Symphony, who just bought SmashFly who also has a chat bot. Or maybe even Talk Push who pretty much owns the APAC area when it comes to the chat bot slash CRM side. So I think overall, I love the idea. I love the digital nomad. The problem from my standpoint, it is too easy to replicate, which is why I'm hitting you with the guns. Joel: Ouch. Chad: I love it, man. I say you live it up as long as you can. Joel: Dude, there aren't many arousing applauses and big guns. So however you feel about that, I don't know, but it's a unique situation. How do you feel? Adam: Yeah, I feel really good. I didn't come just for positive feedback. So thank you to both of you for your input. Joel: Fair enough. Well, again, Adam, for those who want to learn more, where do they go? Adam: So go to appli.chat/cheese, A-P-P-L-I dot chat forward slash cheese. Joel: Thanks, man. Chad: Excellent. Joel: Chad. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the firing squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E.com. SFX: That is one big pile of shit. #FiringSquad #chatbots #Facebook #Advertising #Agency #Applichat

Hell hath no fury like a bunch of salespeople screwed over by a greedy company, which is why CareerBuilder's back in court. Oh, CareerBuilder, you're the gift that just keeps on giving. In addition to this news, the boys cover: - Bullhorn's new bullshit - McDonald's & Olivia's catfish move - LinkedIn's hashtag fetish - and Facebook's aversion to innovation and how it totally screws up their recruiting efforts. The upcoming holiday season obviously has Chad & Cheese feeling all warm and fuzzy. Enjoy and show Sovren, Canvas, and JobAdx - those are our sponsors - lots of love. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions connects jobseekers with disabilities with employers who value diversity and inclusion. James Ellis: Hey, this is James Ellis from The Talent Cast podcasting. You're listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast, which I guess is your choice. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR'smost dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where hurts complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Bottle up boys and girls Joel: AWE YEAH, it's a rare, very rare late night episode of the chat. Okay. Joel: Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm feeling kind of squirrely. So break out the smoking jackets and pour yourself a cognac. I'm your cohost Joel, Don Draper, Cheeseman and I'm Chad. Let's hurry the fuck up. There's football on. So wash on this week. Show LinkedIn hashes out at companies. At least one part of bullhorns new market place is bullshit and CareerBuilder is back in court while the fire is warm and the Browns are on tonight. Kids, we'll be right back after this word from Canvas. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human that's you at the center. While canvas bot is at your side. Adding automation to your workflow canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent that's go canvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: Shout out to the Browns who are bound to kick the Steelers ass tonight. I probably just jinxed it. Other shout outs, a shout out to Recruitcon. Just got back from Nashville earlier today. Spoke on SEO for Google for jobs. I was a good time. Nashville's always fun. Nash, Vegas and the house. Shout out to Recruitcon. Recruitcon that Julie's still down there. Yes, she's on. She's got a double billing on that bitch. Good for now. You warmed them up. That's awesome. A big, big shout out that you're not, you're talking about the crowd. Obviously. Chad: We're close, but not that close. Tengai wins a Nora, which is a national online recruitment recruiting board. Yeah. Anyway, way to go. Tengai. Joel: Yeah. If they can't win an innovative award, they can't win anything. Cause that fucking thing is at least innovative. Yeah. Chad: The only one in the world, a Skill Scout, big props to Skill Scout. So we, we've been looking for an opportunity to do video for a while now and just have had too much other shit going on. Joel has been able to double up on his naps, which has been awesome. But we finally found a company skill scout who we could do DIY stuff and it wouldn't look like all "Blair Witchy" and shit. It looks good. So we're happy about that. Joel: It took a company led by another Cheesman to get us on, on video. We appreciate that. And a Valentine. Chad: And a Valentine... The one who actually sent the shit to you. Joel: A Cheesman and a Valentine. Shout out to Jim Stroud, the latest entrant to our network empire podcast empire joined evergreen this week. The announcement went out. We're glad to have Jim on board and it's going to be a fun ride. Shout out to him. Chad: It is. And next up I'm going to say I'm going to give it up. It's going to happen... For all you branding fans out there. Employer Brand fans, James Ellis and The Talent Cast will be official very, very so in the Evergreen Podcast network. If you're looking for more knowledge to feed your brain subscribed to the Jim' Stroud's podcast and The Talent Cast. Joel: Saw James today. Actually I'm sure this will be something he, he needs to cover this on the podcast and I'm going to, I'm going to tease the audience. He was recently interviewed for a job at CareerBuilder. I won't give away any more than that, but he's got a nice little story to tell. Yes, very recently they're pimping that. They got a bunch of money somehow, which I don't think has been publicized, but we'll, we'll have to get on that if anyone knows anything about that. Let us know. Chad: This class action suit we're going to talk about might have something to do with that. A big shout out to Micole Garate I think it is. She tweeted listening to the Chad and cheese podcast for the first time. "This Is definitely the big mouths of HR podcast". Two things first, Nicole. Really this is your first time. Welcome. But wow, it took you so long. Second, the big mouths. I think that's good. I'm just not sure. Joel: You make her name sound like the latest McDonald's dessert. I think it's Micole and not Mc-Hole or whatever that all you'd said. And why can't we get fans with normal names? For God's sakes, man, we can't pronounce anybody's on this show. I'll take them off. Yeah. However, Michael O'Dell I can pronounce, he lives in Nashville works for Neuvoo. Apparently they have about 10 different pronunciations of the, of the word and within the company. So the fact that we mispronounced it I think is okay. But Michael took us, took me, to his favorite barbecue spot. Took me to some cool sort of historic bars in Nashville. Fed me PBR. It was a good time, Michael. Much appreciated you're a good cat. Chad: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Julie doesn't give get any props it all for buying you drinks. Are you kidding me? Joel: She didn't buy me any drinks. Chad: Okay, we'll, we'll put that one out there. Wait til she gets home. Shout out to your favorite porn star. Hung Lee for giving us some love. He gave us some lot of on Sundays, recruiting brain food. I've never seen one of his porn his porn movies, but you know, that's, you say he's good, so I'm going to go with you on that. Joel: He's hung like a, you know what? That's all I'm saying. Who else got a, that's all my shout outs. We can talk about travel unless she got more people to suck up too. Chad: Jobiak. You forgot job yak gets $2.3 million. Joel: I'm going with Joby. You like Jobiak better? Chad: Yeah, it's definitely Jobiak. They're pushing jobs to Google for jobs. I'm going to say it's Jobiak, Joel: Joby yak. Kodiak job yak. Yeah, they got 2.3 mill, right? Chad: Yeah, 2.3 mill. It's, it's, it's interesting now for what I'm hearing. They're having issues with conversions. Joel: Oh shit. Chad: Conversions can be a bitch and hopefully that 2.3 million can help you get there. My big question is we really haven't heard much from any of the programmatic players around Google for jobs and what I would like to hear from them and we'll reach out, but you guys reach out to us is Google for jobs dying? Are we seeing still the type of traffic that we did six months ago, a year ago? I want to hear about that because we're not seeing much happening from the platform itself. Joel: Yeah, I don't think it's dying. There's an SEO presentation, PowerPoint being passed around and it, it's, it's not about the jobs component, but it's about Google's entire no click search like strategy to compete with everybody and jobs is just a piece of that. But right from the tool, the SEO tools that have been sort of highlighted in this presentation the jobs component is growing quite nicely. So although we may not hear stuff anecdotally or from providers for that at least one tool in the SEO community is showing that there's a, there's a good amount of growth in the jobs vertical for Google. So I don't think it's going anywhere. I know, you know, we've talked to Sovren Robert Ruff about how much easier it is to sort of handle jobs, parse jobs and serve them up much more so than profiles, which was part of the (Google) Hire issues and closing that down. Joel: But yeah, I don't, I don't think hires going anywhere. I think they're going to monetize it next year. They're going to start paper click shit. Like I don't, I don't think it's going anywhere at all. Chad: So you don't feel like jobs is going anywhere. Okay. I don't. Okay. Okay. We definitely like again to hear from some of our programmatic friends out there to give us some, some data on some of that. Just the, the peaks and valleys of what's going on. And imagine that a programmatic friend, Julie Ho from JobAdX your limited edition Chad and Cheese t-shirt is in the mail. Just want to make sure you knew that.. Joel: Big fan of the show. Julie Ho. Man, awesome... Events. We're almost done with the year. Thank God. Are we going to have a moratorium on talking about 2020 until 2020? Chad: Possibly. Joel: Okay, so ICIMS this next week. Chad: Going to Arizona for ICIMs... GOLF... Goat Yoga! And then we'll learn more about in players. You know, one of our big players in our space, you know, you might've heard of them ICIMS. So it's going to be a two day affair. Learning what's going on with them against the market and why we're there. We can actually ask them about Google for jobs as well. Joel: We, we totally can. And they enjoy talking about that. Colin's a big fan of what Google's doing. And by the way, that reminded me of another shoutout, a Symphony Talent care package came from me. You got that or not? But yeah. Yet another Yeti that I can add to the collection and a pair of AirPods, which is fucking fat. Joel: So ICIMS better up the game when we go down there with the swag because symphony talent just upped the game big time. Chad: Airpods and they matched ICIMS Yeti, Yeti for Yeti. So Symphony Talent now, not just spending money on things like I don't know SmashFly. They're spending things on a The Chad and Cheese. Joel: Pretty sure they didn't just get that for us. Pretty sure everyone that's important, you know, and we are important got a Yeti and a pair of AirPods so we're not that special, but it's still really nice swag. Yeah, I'll take it from stuff that you can't drink. This is a pretty good you know, second second act. At least you can put drinks in the Yeti to keep cold for your football watching pleasure. Chad: Yes, it needs to have that walking drink. Going to Dallas for TalentNet and what are we gonna be doing in Dallas? I shit, I don't even know what, what's, where are we at? What's, what's going on in Dallas? Joel: Big D. Yup. We're doing a talent net live Craig Fisher's 10th year putting this shit on. It's a Dallas and really Texas staple. We're gonna be doing our show. We're going to be doing our naughty or our world famous naughty or nice list. And we're trying to, we're working on a guest a to come up with us. That's, that's been a challenge so far, but I'm pretty confident that we can get a, a competent female, hopefully counter voice to balance our naughty to her. Nice. Chad: That would be nice. So if you're in Dallas area and you'd like to get on the chat and cheese podcast and feel free to go ahead and hit us on the website or tweet us or something like that, Joel: We could probably get you into the conference. I don't want to speak for Craig, but if you're willing to come on the show and you don't have tickets to the event we could probably pull some strings. Chad: I'm going to say we can probably do that. Chad: Topics! Chad: Topics! It's time for the NEWS... Joel: Careerbuilder. The long arm of the law coming down on Careerbuilder once again in the news. Chad: Yes. So from the Cook County Record, a, a new class accident action lawsuit has accused CareerBuilder for underpaying its sales representatives, allegedly stripping those workers of commissions they had earned. And one of the things you won't don't want to do to your school staff is you don't want to fuck with their commissions. But that is one big pile of shit. Benjamin D foggers filed suit and potentially hundreds if not thousands of additional plaintiffs who worked at Careerbuilder may join in that suit. So if you were in Careerbuilder during the timeframe in which the fucking occurred, guess what kids? Join the class action suit. Joel: You gettin' paid, you don't get paid yet. I had heard rumors of this a while ago about commissions being screwed up. I think this was during the whole whatever, poncho Vila or whoever the hell it was. Chad: El Chapo. Joel: Yeah. I think this was during the whole Chapo thing that commissions are being cut and slashed. I had at least one ex career builder messaged me and said everything in this is entirely true and it's why so many of us left when it happened. So yeah, I think, I think CareerBuilder's probably gonna have to write a check for this one. And if it's thousands it's going to be a pretty big check. Chad: Yeah. So according to the complaint, CareerBuilder instituted a new compensation plan. This is, this is classic. Under the new comp plan, the compensation was allegedly ratcheted down then commissions were removed entirely. Joel: Ouch. I love also that they're adding interest and attorney fees to the lawsuit just to add a little salt to the the wound there that they're about Chad: What do pissed off sales people do? Joel: File lawsuits apparently. Chad: ...Or They don't sell and, or they leave. And I've had a handful of 'em as individuals actually reach out and say exactly. It is a matter of fact, one of them sent me this this story. I didn't even know it. I got this story and then had a handful of others actually ping me and say, boom, here's the link. It's true. So it's, man, this is not a good thing. You don't, you don't screw your people. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. There's also some, some good stuff out there on Glassdoor and indeed and other places where, you know, reviews are put. So it hurts your recruiting and retention for future employees that you might recruit. Chad: Well, so you were talking about some of that money that they might've had that there were talking about with James a will, if you scrape this much money off the backs of your salespeople, you can come up with cash. But I mean right now CareerBuilder's kind of like that Titanic, it's going down while the executives find the lifeboats and everybody else just, you know, they just stay on and fucking drown. It's, it's horrible. Joel: Yeah. I think they're, I think they're just playing with house money at this point. I mean, obviously a little bumps in the road where they have to pay out stuff sucks for them, but I think they've made their money. And then some, and now they're just milking it. Don't you think? Chad: Now they're just making people's lives horrible. Sure. I mean that's what it is. I mean, people around have no idea what's going on. No, not putting money back into the product and looking to sell. And from my understanding, some of my sources say that the background screening company is very close to being sold. So there is even more money. So it's, you know, again, it's like the Titanic and my, my question to the people that are still on the Titanic, the fuck are you doing on the Titanic? Joel: They're counting, they're shuffling the chairs because it's busy work. At least they have Text Kernel to fall back Chad: Yeah. And Broadbean. Right, right. But I mean, so just a couple of years ago were they have like 25,000 clients and I mean that's dwindled down to like a 2-3000 or something like that. I mean, it's just, it's, I don't understand where this ends and how they can get guys like James Ellis in for an actual interview. Why? Why do they even need it and why are they doing WWE sponsors? I don't get it... Joel: But at least you like their new ads though. So they have that. Chad: No, I liked, I liked them better than any of their other ads they've done in the last couple of years. That's what I said. Joel: We can talking about McDonald's then for God's sakes, we can beat that dead. Chad: Yeah. I don't think the horse is dead. If the horse was dead, people wouldn't be publishing more, more news about them. Joel: No, you're probably right. Chad: Yeah. That's the thing that's getting me, and one of the reasons why I personally wanted to talk about this is because this feels like Second Life back in the day where everybody was so excited about it. But then remember TMP did a job fair and that shit just didn't work. Joel: All right. Let's unwrap this a little bit. Are you comparing the fate of Second Life to the future fate of voice, search? Chad: No wait a minute, I thought you, I thought you were still bolstering second life. Joel: I'm on it right now. You believe voice assistants are a thing, right? Like that's not gonna. That's not gonna be Second Life part two, right? Chad: Yeah. Well I think Second Life is still a thing though too. The problem was back when they did it, the bandwidth was horrible. The processing was horrible. It was too early for its time. It might be good for job fairs one day, right? But it's just not, it's not ready. The problem I have with this product, which we've talked about before, the experience for the job seeker sucks. And if that job seeker go figure is a customer of McDonald's and they have a shitty experience, it's just another black hole that they end up in. So I just don't get it. Why does McDonald's rush to market with something that sucks from an experience standpoint? Joel: But I think there's one valid thing here is to note that bloggers and journalists are historically lazy and they see a story, right? McDonald's, Alexa apply for a job and it's like, I'm gonna write about that. And they just look at the press release, they copy and paste the quotes that are from the press release. And they don't actually like go to Alexa. Yeah, they don't do it. I have an Alexa if I don't have Alexa, I get that. But like they don't actually test it. It's just like something to drive traffic and clicks to their blog or website. So there is a, there's a level of laziness with this story to say like, Oh, it's cool, let's write about it, but actually not do journalism or reporting and see if it actually works. I wish some more of that would happen, but yeah, that's part of the reason why this thing is still in the news and it will continue to be someone else, some other company will do it and they'll do a press release around that restaurant or whatever has done it and more press will come out. But ultimately if the shit doesn't work, it'll just, it'll just die out. This is obviously going to be a topic in our Naughty and Nice podcast. I'm going to guess this is on your naughty list with a bullet. Chad: And ONLY because I was so excited to be able to actually have something that was voice activated that was a good experience. Right? Or at least a good shot of an experience. This is total shit. Joel: You feel torched by this. You're your it feel. Chad: Yea, I feel, I feel bait and switched. So you know, if you're McDonald's, this is bullshit. If you're Paradox and Olivia, this is total utter bullshit. They both knew better. Mel. McDonald's probably didn't know as much better they should have, but the vendor paradox, they should have known better. Joel: You feel like you've got catfish, don't you? You feel like you were lured in and then you know, she wasn't what you expected when you saw the Tinder post. Chad: That's exactly right. It was a very, was a great look in maybe a little air brushing that was happening, but still, yeah. Got catfish on this one. Joel: Well, let's take a break. I'm going to check the score on the Browns game and we'll come back and talk about indeed and bullhorns. New marketplace. Sovren: SOVREN parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting SOVREN.com. That's SOVREN.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human Sovren software. So human. You'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: We've got a seven Oh score Browns in the lead, Baker Mayfield one yard rush, rushing, touchdown. Just an update. It's early. Totally jinxing yourself at this point. Yeah, I can't wait when this airs in the finals like 49 to seven, there'll be good. It'll be fine. So a tweet from cofounder of indeed Paul Forrester. Got you all been out of shape this week. What happened? Chad: Yeah. Well let's set this up real quick. So Paul Forrester really is the guy, him and Ronny who made Indeed, you know, what it is today. I mean, the culture of indeed is very, very much that of what Paul wanted it to be. And this tweet really it exemplifies. Joel: You think it symbolizes the DNA of the company. Chad: And who Paul Forrester is. So anyway, Paul puts out a tweet talking about 15 years ago, the indeed space and now the new indeed space in Austin apparently outdoes Facebook in Google. So he's all excited about it and one of the people that's not excited and I, I know many companies that are not excited because they feel like they were taken for a ride with the trojan horse. One of the, one of the people actually said, it's really too bad you're focusing more on your offices and not on the customers that got you there. Chad: That's what we talk about all the time. Indeed. Really bait and switch where they give away that that free heroin drip of organic search traffic and then they just yank right out from underneath you that they did that with job boards. They did that with staffing companies. This is a great opportunity I think for Paul to say, you know, that's really interesting and Paul hasn't been with the company for a very long time. I think it's easy for Paul to say "That's very interesting. I'm not involved with ops, so you know, I, why don't we bring those guys in. I'm sure customer service can help you out" but Paul doesn't do that. Paul says, interesting point. Although in fact job-seekers are more important in that journey. Pretty much telling the company that paid to lift them up to create what they created today. Fuck you. That that symbolizes Paul Forrester. He's always been an asshole. And the culture of this organization is, guess what too fucking bad. You don't like it? Go somewhere else. Joel: You know Paul's in Bora Bora with a fruity drink with an umbrella and could care less about your opinion. Okay. Chad: It's a different story. This is another reason, another reason why he should, he should be nice to people for God's sake. Joel: That's true. He has no other reason, you know? Right. It's, it's the two he has maybe. Chad: He can at least after the billion dollars that they made while he's drinking fruity drinks on the beach, be a nice guy instead of an asshole anymore. Joel: At least he's not cat fishing people from what we understand. That's a good thing by the way. Ronnie is a beautiful human being. We can agree on that. Chad: Yes, we can definitely. We can definitely. He, they, they definitely have the, the yin and yang gone but also from a source and this continues to kind of build up. Here's a quote from one of one of the vendors who is dealing directly with hiring companies. "Indeed Told one of our bigger customers that to get their jobs sponsored, it would be 10K per month", which means in this context that they're actually starting to pull organic traffic away from hiring companies now and they're starting to make them pay exactly what they did with job boards, exactly what they did with staffing companies. Guess what? If you're a hiring company and you don't have an exit plan, sorry about ya. Joel: I think it's fair to say that indeed is quickly not a job search engine anymore. It's just a pay to play job site. I stopped short of saying job board, but basically that's what they've become. Chad: No, it's a job board with performance ads. I mean seriously, because all of the jobs are on with this, this two pane kind of thing that they have going on. They went from being a job search engine that drove much like Google drove traffic to your site and to keeping all the traffic on their site. Joel: I'm just saying that the general spirit of a job of a search engine is not to like make people pay to be in the search engine. Yeah, exactly. And they're getting there. They're so, they're getting so far away from that that I'm just, they're just a job board at this point to me. Nope, they are. They are a job board. A Bullhorn is in the news. We haven't talked about them for a while. So I got an email from Doug Haslam their senior manager of media relations. Bullhorn has today launched the new Bullhorn marketplace. You can learn more at bullhorn.com/marketplace. The marketplace is an ecosystem of a hundred plus pre-integrated partners to help customers, blah, blah, blah, choose solutions, yada, yada, yada. You love marketplaces. I love, I love marketplaces. With one exception. I emailed Doug back and said, Hey dude, can you, can you send me some like pricing info on the marketplace and do you, do you care to take a guess at what his comment was? Joel: Or his answer was? Chad: I don't want to give you that answer because you'll publish it. Joel: Pretty well. Maybe that's what he, what he said internally, but the, his official answer was quote just spoke with the alliances team to confirm we are keeping fee structures confidential at this time, so I'm afraid I can't disclose any of that. And my reply was, "Boo", I don't understand why that can't be transparent. I don't know why. Just the whole fee structure needs to die. I mean S I don't know who needs to do it, but they're charging so much like to be in the, to be in the marketplace. Oh, okay. I just think the spirit of the began with the spirit spirit of marketplaces should be like, you know, put in, put your app in the marketplace. The marketplace will decide which solutions in the marketplace are best for the market and users will be able to use services in the marketplace based on sort of a, a meritocracy, you know, Apple to be in the Apple app store. Joel: You know, it's a $99 fee for the year and it's free to put in an app. I mean they obviously review it and they have terms of service and things you have to sorta jump through, but there's no real costs. Android is free, you know, Slack is free. I don't know why, you know, our business has this sort of hurdle. I understand ATS is have after make money and these places have to make money, but it just seems intricate and it just seems a, it just seems bad that we make companies and startups that could be in marketplaces like this basically not be able to do it because of the fee structure and I, and the fact that the fact that you have fee structure sucks and then the fact that it's not transparent I think is doubly, doubly shitty. Chad: Yeah, I agree with the transparency, but I don't agree with as the whole app piece because the, the apps are not as complex as what's going on in the actual marketplace for the applicant tracking systems. So if you're building an app for Android or iOS, right, that it's not easy, don't get me wrong, but it is, it is much, much less complex than trying to get your platform integrated into something like a core system, like an applicant tracking system. Not to mention it's not a one way road where only the developer of the app is going to have to do the updates, right? You have to have somebody in the core system also doing that, in managing that. So therefore there are resources and costs that go along with it. So, I mean, I think it's the big difference is scale of what you're talking about. I love the idea of having a marketplace where you can do that, but what you're talking about scale wise is entirely different. I mean, maybe, Joel: Maybe it sounds like a topic for ICIMS next week. Yeah. Help us understand why the F the fee structure exists as it does in our world and in others? Chad: I think they'll probably say read Chad's transcript and that's it. Joel: I doubt they'll say that. I just think it's because we love startups and we firing squad and you know, we love them. And I think too many of the ones that I talk to, it's like we can't afford to be on multiple marketplaces, let alone, you know, one or two. And I just think it, it, it hinders innovation. It stifles, you know, startups and I just think that sucks. Chad: Either way I totally get we what you're saying. I'd love to see it easier for startups to be able to engage and not have to pay. But yeah, I mean it's the, I think it's the resource piece really. Joel: Ah, let's take another break and check scores. And we'll talk about two fun topics. Tiktok and LinkedIn. Tiktok. JobAdX: Nope, not for me. All these jobs look the same. Oh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just halfheartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it. We live in a world that is all about content, content, content, so why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets and templated job descriptions? Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop-off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compelled top talent to join your team help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing. Joinus@Jobadx.Com that's, joinus@jobadx.com attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Joel: It seems like yesterday we were talking about TikTok at 500 million users. Yes. Will they just surpassed a billion users, they're the fastest to, to get to a billion ever. Yeah. The average time spent by user per day is like 56 minutes. The, the 16 to 24 age group. It's like by far the most pop, not by far, but it's the most popular app among, that age group. So obviously when that happens, what does Facebook do? Chad: They want to try to mimic exactly what's happening to and or steal. So they tried with lasso first and that fucking bombed. Joel: Well, yeah, so the Lasso bombed but putting stories within Instagram has worked basically, and they've, they've effectively stifled Snapchat's growth because of that. So they're essentially doing the same with TikTok, Techcrunch and variety caught wind of a new tool called reels, like a movie reel. Joel: And I think this was in South America somewhere like it wouldn't get sort of discovered. Right. so these are 15 second videos. You're gonna just feed, set them to music borrow audio, do duets with other, it's take two users. Chad: It's tick tock, Joel: It's tick tock. So I was trying to figure out an angle from employment on this and I got to think if I'm a, if I'm a shit hot developer and all I see coming out of Facebook is copycat stuff that's mimicking successful technologies and services, why the fuck would I go to Facebook, right? Like if the innovation there is dead, I'm going to go somewhere where it lives and breathes and that for the last five, 10 years has not been Facebook. Chad: Yes. And I want to make a point real quick. I remember for many months every time I brought TikTok up, you laughed at me, but you love tick-tock. I find that fascinating. It is fascinating. Yeah. Not to mention if you're on it, like Gary V is like everywhere, but he is like all over TikTok. Every time I turn on a TikTok, I just turned it on. He was on TikTok. I think it's a great marketing machine to be quite Frank for individuals even like us. I mean we should we get a TikTok, we should possibly talk to skill scout about that. But yeah, I think if you're looking to try to work at an organization that doesn't feel like the corporate or the man, it's not going to be Facebook today. It's definitely not with all the shit that's going on with Zuckerberg and, and, and Cheryl tell him bullshit lies and Congress. I mean, it's just like, that's not where you want to be. I'm not sure that Google is where you want to be either right there. They're just so corporate these smaller types of startups that I think that's the ticket right now. Joel: Yeah. you know, I think Twitter's trying to balance the line of not falling into Facebook land. Yes. And I think part of the whole, we're not going to take political ads as part of that because I think that's gotta be a minefield for Facebook recruiting when they get questions about why do you allow political ads that aren't totally true? And in fact, sometimes absolute lies to be on the platform. So Twitter, I think Twitter is trying to stay cool, but they're balancing out that fact that Trump's presidency is based on his tweets. Yeah. But then also staying away from the political minefield that is advertising. But yeah, it's a weird, it's gotta be a weird world for recruiting for these big companies because I think hot shit developers are running as far away from them as possible. Chad: Yeah, there are many people that are running away from them as far as possible. Yeah. I'll just go with that. Joel: But where they're certainly running to is LinkedIn cause it's so cool. So LinkedIn, this is my list. This is my little pet story for the week. So LinkedIn launched hashtags for companies or basically the company pages, right? So if you're a company, you know, whatever for if you're an ATS, you can put hashtag ATS hashtag recruiting software, whatever, whatever hashtags you want to associate with your business which is all, which is all fine and good. Right. So what's happening, and I did this for, for Ratedly. I added hashtags to it. So any, any posts by an individual that has hashtags, that are, that are the same as the ones you associate with your business, you get an alert from LinkedIn saying, Hey, Joe Schmo just posted something about employment branding or whatever it might be. Right? And then, and then it says you might want to go comment. Joel: So I'm like, okay, well that's kind of clever. So I go, I go to the post that they told me to look at and comment and sure enough if the, if there were 20 comments, 15 of them were companies, right. So, so now, so now all your posts are going to be inundated with companies that are like minded to the content that you just posted with commentary, which I got to think is going to get really old, really fast with people. So yeah, I just wanted to point that out as something new at LinkedIn that they're doing, but I can't imagine that they're going to, that users are going to be real happy with like 10 comments and nine of them are from companies. Chad: That's horrible. Joel: Yeah, it's pretty bad. Go Browns Chad: We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? Podcast The Chad, The Cheese . BRILLIANT! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know, and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho pepperjack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird anyhoo. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, GooglePlay, or wherever you listen to podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese is so weird. We out! #LinkedIn #Bullhorn #McDonalds #Facebook #Olivia #Paradox #Careerbuilder

Quincy Valencia (aka Queen of the Chatbots) joins the menz to talk chatbots, programmatic and industry whitespace. Whitespace? WTF is WHITESPACE? Gotta listen to find out... And while you're listening school yourself on hiring.nexxt.com. Text, email, programmatic+ with out friends from NEXXT PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides comprehensive website accessibility testing with personalized recommendations to enhance usability for people with a variety of disabilities or situational limitations. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Now, on today's Chad and Cheese, we have, once again, we've actually ran into Quincy Valencia. And you will remember, she is also known as queen of the Chatbots. Hello, Quincy. Quincy Valencia: You mean, hello, your highness. Chad: I mean, yes. Quincy Valencia: Hello. Chad: Sorry. Quincy Valencia: Nice to be back. Chad: Good to have. Quincy Valencia: Good to be here. Joel: Great interview that we did with Quincy not too long ago. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's been a while. It's a must listen for anyone who cares about Chatbots in our space. Quincy Valencia: Well, I appreciate that. It was good. It was a lot of fun. Joel: Was it? Quincy Valencia: There's so much new and exciting- Joel: So much fun. Quincy Valencia: So many new and exciting things and the field. Chad: It's hilarious because I've known Quincy for over 15 years and I haven't seen her smile this much. Joel: And she is still talking to you, oddly enough. Chad: Yeah, I know, right? That's because I keep sneaking back in. Joel: Have you had a psychological evaluation at any point in the last- Quincy Valencia: I refuse to disclose. Joel: Okay. Good enough. Enough said. Chad: So, let's go right into it. So, there was this little Chatbot in Canada. Quincy Valencia: There was. Chad: The porridge was kind of warm. So, you guys went for it? Quincy Valencia: Yeah, we did. Chad: Karen. Quincy Valencia: Karen HR, Karen.AI out of Toronto was a great company. It was at the right space at the right time. As we at Alexander Mann are looking to expand upon the services and products that we offer in the industry, it was a perfect time. We were working with the Karen folks and some of our existing clients. And we thought, you know what? Now is a really good time to explore what else they have to offer that will help us augment and propel us into the next phase as an organization with Alexander Mann. So, really, really lucky to be working with those guys. Incredibly smart people. The co-founders, David Vradenberg, and Noel Webb, and a few of their other people came over and we couldn't be happier. It's a perfect fit. I'm really excited to see what we're doing with them now and what's going to be coming up soon. Joel: So, Canadian means it's also French compatible. Quincy Valencia: Sure. Joel: Oui? Chad: Oui. French Canadian, which is entirely different. Joel: What is your title now? Quincy Valencia: VP of product innovation. Chad: VP of product- Quincy Valencia: So, we're the cool kids. Everybody at AMS is cool. Joel: That's why you have the ripped jeans on. Quincy Valencia: That's right. I've ripped jeans, and boots, and tattoos showing right now. Joel: Yep. Yep. Quincy Valencia: That's the cool kid division. It's the prerequisite for working there. Joel: You have the uniform. Quincy Valencia: That's right. I do. It's true. Chad: Okay, so the Chatbot thing, you dove deep into Chatbots for a while. Quincy Valencia: Yep. Chad: You were looking at every Chatbot you can find out there. But that's not your only jam. Quincy Valencia: It's not. Chad: Right? So, what is that jam? I know you love technology and you've loved technology forever. Right now, this is a very exciting time in our industry. What excites you more than a Chatbot? Quincy Valencia: The white space, frankly. So, we're seeing it here. Chad: What? Quincy Valencia: All the white space. Joel: That sounds racist. Quincy Valencia: That's out there. Chad: The white space. Why does it got to be white? Quincy Valencia: Come on, man. No, there's so much space out there. There's so much innovation right now in our industry at large. Chad: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: And great point solutions out there. If you want a point solution for automated sourcing, you can find it. Chad: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: If you want a great solution for a programmatic, you can find it. Joel: So, the white label space. Quincy Valencia: Nope. Joel: Oops. Quincy Valencia: There are gaps. So, you have... point A to point B, there's a line between those two and there's nothing filling that line. And point B to point C, there are solutions for B and C but there's nothing filling that gap. Joel: I was largely being sarcastic, but thanks for filling that in. Quincy Valencia: I'm here for you. Chad: So, you have stack technology, right? And then, you have gaps in the stacks. Quincy Valencia: Right. Chad: That's what you're saying. Quincy Valencia: Yeah, that's it. Chad: So, what do you do? And why do you buy all of this technology if there are all these God damn gaps? Quincy Valencia: Well, you know what? That's a really good question. And part of that is I think there's a few things that we're seeing. So, our time working really from the operator side, and the recruitment side, and all the years that we've seen there, and then partnering with such great technologists out there and falling into the same trap, frankly. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Quincy Valencia: As what everyone else falls into, which is, that looks really cool and can solve a problem, and that looks really cool and can solve a problem, and that looks really cool and can solve a problem, and there are markets for those things out there. But what's really missing in a lot of cases is that one cohesive engine that will take you from point A to point Z, which is the hire in our industry- Chad: Okay. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Quincy Valencia: Without those gaps and without those breaks. Because some of the challenge... look, I'm a big proponent of everyone who's here today, and of what we do, and I buy these products, and we partner with these. So, it's not to denigrate them at all. There are places for that. But what we don't see is that one cohesive end to end solution. And, when you start Frankensteining pieces together, and one of those providers changes one piece of code, now you have a single point of failure. And often it looks very disjointed. So, if you look at a candidate experience, and you know from when we talked before, for me, candidate experience is everything, stakeholder experience in general is everything. And that's the lens you need to build everything through. Quincy Valencia: And so, when you start jumping from one solution, to another solution, to another solution, if not done properly, and it's hard to do that properly, it becomes a poor experience where really all you're trying to do is make it better. And so, the white spaces and how do you fill in the spots in between each point solution. So, that's what's really exciting me these days. Chad: So, aren't the ICIMs and the Jobvites of the world trying to get rid of those by buying Jibe, and Canvas, and then Telemetry? And I mean, aren't they trying to do that? Aren't they trying to be one system? Quincy Valencia: Everyone is trying to do that one platform? Joel: Are they going to achieve it though? Quincy Valencia: Well, I don't know. I mean, I guess it's yet to be seen. But, when you look at all the different pieces, growth, and expansion, and penetration through acquisition is smart, in a lot of cases and really will acquire them more business. And they're really moving toward what it is that we're talking about today. But those platforms are still built on different code. And so, basically they're still kind of... it remains to be seen how successful they are in integrating that from an experience standpoint. I don't know. Joel: Who do you give the best chance to be that one platform? Quincy Valencia: Oh, this is such a loaded question. I don't know. Chad: Is it an ATS? Quincy Valencia: Well- Chad: Is it an ERP? I mean, what's the company that's going to be the core that they can build around that, this makes the most sense? Quincy Valencia: I can't name which company it is. But I will tell you this, it has to be a company that will, whether they're building it themselves or whether they're building it through acquisition, has depth and breadth of knowledge and experience in the business of recruitment in people and in that, as opposed to only being technologists on the other end that may have seen a gap out there. Chad: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: And an opportunity and they try and plug that in. I think that's one of the biggest things that's missing is that experience in recruitment in general and hearing and having access to and living day to day the frustrations that are out there in the marketplace. So, not just knowing it because everyone knows the data points, but really understanding it sort of viscerally. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Are we not giving the app marketplace enough credit here? Because shouldn't an ATS have a robust enough application or app store to where other solutions can build on top of theirs to create this one platform? So, whether it's Canvas or Text Recruit, whatever you choose, you just plug it into your ATS. Like I feel like we spend too much time on, they got to buy it, they got to build it. Like can't they just provide an environment where third parties can build these tools on their platform? Quincy Valencia: The people who have the problems, the people who have the challenges in their recruitment programs are not necessarily the people who understand the vast technology marketplace that exists today. And so, if you just create a tech marketplace like ICIMs has, which I love ICIMs by the way. I think a company I used to work for was I think the 12th company to purchase and implement them. Joel: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: So, again, props to them. But, if you're only having a marketplace for them and you're saying, well we've added them, but you've got 20 of them and there's no consultation behind that about what are you trying to accomplish as a business, as an organization? Joel: Right. Quincy Valencia: What are you missing today? What are you trying to accomplish with TA holistically, as opposed to you can plug in these point solutions, I don't know how successful that's going to be. Joel: And I think there could be a marketplace rating system where people who use those apps say, this is fantastic. And you say, okay. Well, this one has a better review than the other one. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Joel: So, I don't know if you have to know every single text recruiting platform to just go in and say, okay, these two have five stars. Chad: It's very Apple store-ish, right? Joel: Yes. Quincy Valencia: Yep. Totally agree with that. So, I love the idea of that pre-vetting. Joel: Let the market decide. Or let the market... I mean- Quincy Valencia: It's no different than buying something on Amazon. You're not going to buy something without a five star rating. Right? So, I totally get that. Joel: Correct. And a thoughtful review and things like that. Quincy Valencia: The problem with that approach is that you have operators, which is what you need to make these business decisions. And they can identify what they think the issues are in their market. And sometimes you have two issues, and this is why they hire consultants to help them with this. The marketplace is vast and the terminology is sometimes foreign. So, do I need a Chatbot? Do I need Programmatic? It's still, we go into clients it's, I need an AI. They don't exactly even know what that means. Quincy Valencia: And so, it's not enough, in my opinion, to have a marketplace that has the best of the best, even if it's the cream of the crop, fully bedded of 50 different types of point solutions without any context around that to help guide those decisions of what those opportunities really are in their marketplace. Time and again you'll see somebody who says, we need sourcing. We need sourcing, sourcing, sourcing, sourcing. What can we do for sourcing? And you can add people, or you can do it programmatically, or you can do whatever you want. But, if the real problem is you don't have enough people downstream to do anything with those candidates that now you have a great pipeline for, you're actually creating a worse experience than what existed before. So, you really need to take a holistic view instead of just buying piece after piece. Joel: The market needs to be forced. Quincy Valencia: Really. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's true. I think there needs to be some consultation that goes along with that, rather than just looking at piece, after piece, after piece and not understanding how it's all going to fit together. Joel: I'd still like to see an environment that I sort of just outlined. I think ATS has put up way too many barriers for companies and technologies to integrate into their systems. Quincy Valencia: I agree. Joel: Whether it's by write a check, or we'll get to you when we get to you, I think there's a hindrance to that one platform happening. And, if I were saying where would my money go, when we talk to startups, the one ATS that everyone is like, oh they're great to integrate with is Greenhouse. Quincy Valencia: Yeah, it is. Joel: So, if we're saying, who has the best chance of building an app store, platform environment? To me, like Greenhouse has as good a shot of anyone just for the fact that they actually do integrate easily. Chad: We'll get back to the interview in a minute, but first we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt. Andy, if a company wants to actually come to Next and utilize your database and target texting candidates, I mean how does that actually work? Andy Katz: Right, so we have the software to provide it two different ways. If an employer has their own database of opted in text messages, whether it's through their ATS, we can text on their behalf. Or we have over eight and a half million users that have opted into our text messaging at this point. So, we can use our own database. We could dissect it by, obviously, by geography, by function, any which way. And sometimes we'll even parse the resumes of the opted in people to target certifications. So, we really can dive really deep if they want to hone in on just give me the best hundred candidates that I want to text message with and have a conversation back and forth with, versus going and saying, I need 30,000 retail people across the country. And that's more of a, yes, no text messaging back and apply. Chad: For more information, go to hiring.nexxt.com. Remember that's next with the double X, not the triple X. Hiring.nexxt.com. Chad: I don't think that answers the white space problem. The white space is still going to be there. But then, I go to Salesforce who has this huge app marketplace thing, right? Quincy Valencia: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: And, I mean, they've actually created an entire industry of Salesforce consultants to be able to get those tied together. And I see where you're going and I like it. But I can see that also, with Salesforce, they still have a lot of white space. And they still need more people to come in to try to cover those gaps. So, I don't think that would be the answer to actually covering any of the gaps. Quincy Valencia: Well, agreed. And so, that brings me back to the point that I said before. I mean, to your point, Joel, I think having that sort of market place is invaluable if you have a company that you trust, whether it be an ATS provider that you know and trust, whether it be an RPO provider. We have something called the Hive that's exactly what you're talking about. Joel: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: Because of our experience there. And I think that can serve a great service. As an operator, if you don't truly have that guidance and consultation behind, you may think you need a Chatbot, but do you? What is it you think you're missing? What are you solving for? And, if you're only relying on individual vendors to provide that information to you, they know their product really, really well. They're going to pitch their product to you, and as they should. Joel: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: It's what they should do. But I think you need to take a bird's eye view and see how, not just they're going to integrate technologically, but from an experience standpoint and what that end product will be for your candidates and for your recruiters and for your hiring managers. You have to look at it every stakeholder, not only candidate. Chad: The experience itself, so the the candidate experience, the internal experience for a recruiter, or a hiring manager, or whatever, there's white space all over the place with that. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Chad: And I think there isn't going to be an easy answer to just plug in these apps or just pick these vendors. Right? Quincy Valencia: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: I think we try to go that whole easy route and it has never worked. The problem is we need to understand that. We need to blow up our processes. And we need to start from the ground up and start building pretty much a new system overall, as opposed to trying to layer all these old systems on top. Quincy Valencia: That's exactly what it is. So, you and I have talked about this before, Chad, where you come back to process, process, process all the time. And I actually agree with you on that because a lot of the problem that you have today- Chad: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did you say you, you agree? Quincy Valencia: I did. You should ring a bell or something when you edit this, because this may be the only time. Mark this time in history. But I actually agree with you on that where a lot of the issue from plugging in a lot of the tools that we're talking about now is that they're really trying to replicate their existing experience and existing process just in an automated way. And you're really not improving anything really materially. Quincy Valencia: And so, I would take it one step further from you. And I'd say experience, experience, experience because it incorporates more. You're looking, not just... typically when you're talking about a process, you're looking at it from the company point of view, and you want to add efficiency. And you can do that lots of ways, but you certainly want efficiency, your candidates want efficiency, your hiring managers want efficiency, but they want to feel good. They don't want to feel like crap and like they're being ditched and lost forever when they're going through a process. Chad: Right. Quincy Valencia: They want it to be engaging. They don't want to have to take two shots of whiskey before they start a process. Chad: It does help. Quincy Valencia: Yeah, I know. I've done it so. So, you really need to look at it all around in a- Chad: In a prior job, of course. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. But you need to really look at, how are they going to fail when they go through. And that, to me, that's your primary lens always. And don't try and replicate your existing crappy processes that were built in 1902 because that's what your ATS... you built your process around an ATS that didn't fit your needs. And so, it's not going to work if you just try and recreate the thing. You're wasting your money. You're throwing money at a bad problem if you think that technology is going to fix that for you. Joel: What other technologies are you currently bullish on? Quincy Valencia: RPA, actually. Joel: Oh. Chad: Oh. Quincy Valencia: I think a lot of people are... I know. The more I see and the more I've seen it actually applied in situations, I think it does... there are places where it can do exactly what it is the companies are setting out to do, which is efficiency, accuracy. It helps normally if you hired somebody to manually transfer 70,000 files from one system to another. Certainly opportunity for error is there, human error. It's not very fun. Chances of turnover are great. And you can actually do that in an automated way with a greater degree of accuracy without somebody wanting to kill themselves at the end of the day. Quincy Valencia: And I think there's broader application than what we're even looking at it here. I think you're going to see an upturn there, I think, I expect too, and maybe unexpectedly. Because people are so focused on... it may not seem as sexy. It's like an automated process. It's the assembly line, but I think that could have some real implications in our industry. Chad: Yeah, but, in some cases, we look at Chatbots and everybody wants to say AI, right? Quincy Valencia: Yeah. They don't know what it means. Chad: But overall you're using these Chatbots, in some cases, really in an RPA manner. I mean, robot process automation. You are looking to really automate a process. If you're having a conversation with somebody about getting their data to build a profile in your system to make it more conversational, to make it just a better experience. It's not really AI as much as it is RPA. I understand AI can be behind the scenes. I understand that they can work together. There's no question. But it's like I don't think we talk enough about being able to do something that is sexy. I think process can be ugly as shit, but it can be sexy too. Quincy Valencia: Well, that's the goal. I mean, that's what the goal should be. I think those of us who work in this industry have an obligation, frankly, to make sure that whatever it is that we're building, whatever it is that we're putting in place does have some sexy and sizzle to it. And not only that, not just the shiny squirrel, but... oh, I just mixed metaphors. Not just the shiny new thing, but really in a way that's meaningful. Joel: There may be some shiny squirrels out there. Quincy Valencia: And that's going to be- Joel: Who knows. Quincy Valencia: Probably. But, no. I think it's important that we are looking at it from that way. Otherwise we're all reinventing the same thing. Joel: Are there any vendors that you see are standouts from the RPA side? When we talked to Max from Talkpush recently, he's- Quincy Valencia: I love Max and I love Talkpush. So, that's actually it's a really good product. Joel: Okay. So, we'll add them to the list. Quincy Valencia: I think... yeah. I think that's definitely one to look at. It's hard to narrow. Here's what I've actually seen. There are some really good ones out there and everybody is good at something. I mean, I think I can say that almost universally. Chad: Hence point solution. Right? Quincy Valencia: Right. Hence point solution. But there's not a one size fits all. There's some exciting things going out there. We're seeing... this is not news, but we just saw a Paradox and Amazon partnering for a McDonald's solution. That's pretty exciting. I'm interested to see it in action and see how it works. But- Joel: Well, they partnered with Amazon to the degree that they built an app. Quincy Valencia: Right? Joel: On Alexa. Quincy Valencia: Exactly. But so, but I'm excited to see how that actually works. Chad: That's a step. Quincy Valencia: It is a step. Chad: Yeah. Joel can't wait. Joel: Find me a PHP job in Chicago. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Like I've been- Chad: And get me a cheeseburger while you're at it. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. I've been having... so, yeah. Like if you look at data on search queries that are like Alexa, Google Home, Siri, et cetera, like the numbers of those are skyrocketing. Quincy Valencia: They are. Joel: So, when I look at where the puck is going, like are we in for a world of audio? Because, to me, if you own the time that someone brushes their teeth, and I'm being sort of silly here. Quincy Valencia: It's true. Joel: But, if you can own the time where I'm getting ready for work and I get my news from you, I get my weather report, like whatever I get, whatever content I want, if you can say it to me in audio fashion, do you win? Right? Because, if I go, Alexa, I need more Tide. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Joel: Right. In the old days, and I put that in quotes, in the old days. Quincy Valencia: Three months ago. Joel: In the really old days, I'd have to get in my car, go to the grocery store, the drug store, buy it, bring it home. Quincy Valencia: Nobody wants to do that. Joel: But now, in the old days, right, I'd have to go to the internet. Quincy Valencia: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joel: Or I'd have to go to my phone, do a search for Tide, log in, whatever, and then click whatever. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Joel: If it gets to the point where I just go, Hey Alexa, I need more Tide, and it knows how much, and what kind, and it just ships it to me, is that the world we're going toward? And, if that is the world we're going toward, then having something that, hey, can you get me a job at McDonald's. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Joel: And it walks you through that. Quincy Valencia: Yep. I think that's actually absolutely where we're going. And, if you look at the data on that type of solution, the artificially intelligent assistance or whatever you want to call them, I think it's the queries there are skyrocketing. Here's the caution, and again, I think it's really cool what they're doing now. But there's another provider, a well-known provider in the marketplace. And I won't say who it is because it's not important. But I was going through a process with one of their clients the other day just for market research and it took all of two questions for me to break their logic in their chat. And I wasn't trying to fool it. I wasn't trying to break it. I wasn't doing anything. Chad: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: But it literally took two questions to break it. And I think that's some of what I'm talking about, Chad, when I mentioned I think we have an obligation to look, if we're going to provide these things, to make sure that we're not selling vaporware, to make sure that we're really vetting enough intents in the back end so that, if somebody is asking something, you know what it means. Chad: Yes. Quincy Valencia: The training data, you bring that from the right place and that you're programming it the right way. Because, otherwise, you can win every award in the industry, but, if it only takes the average Joe two questions to break your logic and all of a sudden it's broken, then what happens to that candidate? We're creating another black hole. Joel: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: It's just a new kind of black hole. Chad: That's a horrible experience. So vaporware, that is one of the things that we talked about all the time in the late '90s, early 2000's, because everybody was promising the fucking moon. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Chad: And it was really vaporware. I'm seeing the same things happening today. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Chad: Which many are. What's pissing you off the most? You don't have to say product. It'd be great if you did. Quincy Valencia: Yeah, no. Nice try. Chad: But what kind of product is actually pissing you off the most right now because really it's mainly just smoke and mirrors? Quincy Valencia: I've got two. Chad: Okay. Quincy Valencia: And I'm not going to say they're pissing me, and I'm not going to name an individual product. I'm going to say a product type. Chad: Okay, yeah. Quincy Valencia: And I'm going to name these because... and I have to caveat all this. Chad: Yes. Quincy Valencia: There are things that, to me, have the biggest potential. Chad: Yes. Quincy Valencia: And that I'm personally interested in and that we're really on the precipice of doing something great with these products. Chad: You're excited about it, but they're fucking it up. Quincy Valencia: Well, yeah. One being Chatbots. Chad: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: And one being Programmatic. Chad: Oh. Joel: Explain. Quincy Valencia: Well, so let's look at Programmatic. If you dig into it really, and all of the programmatic advertisers are buying traffic from the same exact places. And, if you don't really understand how it works and you're not really educated on where to go, and how to do, and how to adjust your campaigns, and all of those things, you're spending potentially more money than you were if you're just posting and praying of the old days. And I think that there's, in a lot of cases, not enough consultation with people who are spending money to buy it. It's being sold as a cure all. And it isn't. It's great when it works. But, if you don't know how to do it properly, you're wasting money. And I'm all about eliminating waste in the process. So, that's the first one, I think. Quincy Valencia: The second is Chatbots. And it's for the exact reason that I said. You've got to do better than. You cannot launch a product and put it into the market if two questions are going to break your logic. You do. Joel: To me, it reminds me a lot of say search back in '99 or 2000, right? You would do searches on AltaVista or Excite. Quincy Valencia: Right. Joel: Five out of the ten results were pretty stupid. Quincy Valencia: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joel: But you knew eventually this is going to be a thing. Like they're going to figure this out. Quincy Valencia: Yep. Joel: They're going to do it right. Of course, it took Google to sort of show up to do it right. But I never thought that search was not going to eventually be a thing. So, I think what I'm hearing from you is today it's disappointing. There are mistakes being made and things that they miss. But I'm not hearing that Chatbots don't have a long term future and that they're going to figure some of this stuff out. Right? Quincy Valencia: Oh, without a doubt. I mean, I think that's where, when you've dubbed me queen of Chatbots, I take that as quite the honor because I've had so many conversations over the years of people saying, oh, it's a point solution. It's not a product. And that's true. I think that's true now. I think that we're seeing it go more and more toward something that can be a full service solution. And that really excites me. It's just got to be better. Quincy Valencia: And look, to give credit where credit is due, thank God for the pioneers and people who have gone out and taken the risks and had a great deal of success there. I just think there's a lot of room. Because, in order to get that full service solution that we're talking about, you have to have more elegance and eloquence in what you're delivering, as opposed to just your simple FAQ up front or let's ask some pre-screen questions and then take you into the ATS ask. Chad: It's the expectations of the day. It's the expectations of the day that, back in the day, Joel was talking about AltaVista and whatnot. Quincy Valencia: And so many of your listeners right now are going, what? Because they're only 25. Joel: I'm old. Quincy Valencia: Me too. Chad: So, back then it was kind of like, oh, this is new. Oh, yeah. It's kind of broken. Yeah. You kind of expect that. Right. Today the expectation is the shit is going to work. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Chad: So, it's- Joel: I don't know if that's true if it's a new technology though. Chad: No, I think a user coming to your- Joel: Go shopping, like we should have figured out shopping online by now. But I don't know if they look at Chatbots and think, oh this should be out of the box work. Quincy Valencia: No. I think that's untrue. I think, if I'm a candidate and I'm applying for a job, and if the mechanism I have to communicate with the company is a bot. Joel: The expectation is, this shit should work. Quincy Valencia: This shit should work. Joel: 100%. Quincy Valencia: Oh, I just went off brand. I'm sorry. I'm going to get yelled at for that. Joel: We do it to people all the time. Quincy Valencia: I know. Man. Joel: Don't be mad. Chad: Oh, we sucker them out of it every time. Joel: I'm just more forgiving than you guys. Chad: Yeah, no. You are. You're a sweetheart. Joel: I'm a loving human being. Chad: Everybody says it. No, I agree though. I think the experience that the expectation with technology the way it is today that shit isn't broken. You expect a better experience. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. No, and then I say that and I'll back off a little bit. Things aren't, from this side, sitting in this chair. Chad: Yeah. Quincy Valencia: I think we get it. Chad: You've got a great chair to sit in. Quincy Valencia: We understand. It is comfy here. Things are, you're going to have issues and you're going to have problems. And honestly, that's how your system learns. It's how you make it better. But you better learn quick. Joel: Yeah, I mean, so the mantra at Facebook always used to be, move fast and break things. Quincy Valencia: Yeah. Joel: So, it was like, get it out there. See if it works or not. What can we fix, iterate, iterate, iterate. Quincy Valencia: Well, that's the whole Agile methodology. Joel: And this was before the whole privacy stuff that they have dealt with. Quincy Valencia: They choose not to talk about that. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Chad: It's also a free product. Joel: But I don't personally... yeah. Maybe my consumer behavior is different, but I don't necessarily think when I look at new technology that it should just work instantly. Quincy Valencia: I do. Joel: I'm okay with a few fuck-ups with a Chatbot. Quincy Valencia: Okay, that's fair. Joel: Versus my resume in a black hole. Would we agree with that? Quincy Valencia: All right, yes. That's fair. I'll give you that. Chad: That doesn't mean your resume still isn't going into a black hole, by the way. Quincy Valencia: That's my point. If it's all of a sudden you're in a chat conversation and you're having this conversation and you're two questions in. And you're getting excited and you ask a really simple question and you're stuck in the, I'm sorry, I don't understand loop. Or it answers a question that you didn't ask and, when you rephrase it three times, it's not answering it, you're back in a new black... it's the same black hole. It's just a different black hole. Joel: Is it a blacker whole than we've been used to? Or is it sort of a dark gray? Quincy Valencia: Nope. It's still a black hole. It's just a different hole. Joel: Is it as deep as the black hole that we've always known? Quincy Valencia: I don't think we can measure a black holes, can we? Chad: Get out of the God damn hole. I don't think we can today. Density, I think it's density. Quincy Valencia: I don't know. Joel: All right. The paradox people are here. Quincy Valencia: I'm just saying we have to continue to strive to get better. And, no. The whole concept of Agile development and Agile methodology is you put it out there, you move quick, you fix quick. And I think that's the right way to go. But you better make sure the first thing you're putting out there is at least decent. Joel: I'm out of nuts. Quincy Valencia: That's what I read on the bathroom wall. Joel: Right. Chad: Well, Quincy, thanks again for joining us. I'm sorry- Joel: Always a pleasure, Quincy. Chad: Queen of the Chatbot. Quincy Valencia: I prefer your highness. Chad: Your Highness. Quincy Valencia: Thank you. Always a pleasure to join you. Thanks for the opportunity. Joel: Let's do it again soon. Chad: Let's do it again. Quincy Valencia: Let's do it maybe tomorrow morning. I think that'll be great. Joel: Yeah. I like it. Chad: We'll do it tomorrow morning. Joel: Let's do that, tomorrow morning. Chad: Death match. Joel: Death match. Quincy Valencia: All right. Thanks guys. I'm excited. Joel: Thanks, Quincy. Chad: We're out. Outro: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit ChadCheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #chatbots #AMS #BadAss #gaps #Startup #Programmatic

This segment was originally scheduled to air with last Friday's show, but we felt it was important enough all by itself. Taking a single day for veterans just isn't enough. Take a listen and let us know what you think. #Veterans #Hiring #vendor #LinkedIn #Google #GoogleforJobs

You've heard it... Now see it! ThisWayGlobal CEO, Angela Hood treats Chad and Cheese to beer and industry conversation. Enjoy! #BrewReview #video #AI #Jobs #beer #TAtech

Okay Boomer, we're back for another week of news and commentary. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast HR's Most Dangerous and most Gen Xiest. On this episode: - Symphony Talent gets SMASHED! - HireVue gets into an EPIC fight - 4-day work weeks could be our future - and Careerbuilder jumps into the ring with a new sponsorship. Can you smell what they're cookin'? This "wrastling" match is sponsored by the good people at Sovren, JobAdX, and Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Jim Stroud: 15 minutes ago, the world changed. Companies are microchipping their workers. Robots are hiring humans, and brain-to-brain communication is a thing. This is all happening now. If you want to know what happens next, listen to the Jim Stroud podcast. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Okay, boomer, we're back for another week of news and commentary. Chad: That's right. Joel: Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast, HR's most dangerous and most Gen X-iest. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I am Chad Sowash. Joel: On this episode, Symphony Talent gets smashed, four-day work weeks could be our future, and career builder jumps into the ring with a new sponsorship. Can you smell what they're cooking? We'll be right back after this word from JobAdX. JobAdX: Nope, nah, not for me. All these jobs look the same. Next! This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just half-heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content, so why do we expect job-seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people, and benefits with JobAdX. JobAdX: Instead of hoping that job-seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop-off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team? Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@jobadx.com. Attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Joel: We're back for another week. Chad: We are back. Joel: I was worried, this close to the holidays, that the content would be a little light, but it's pretty meaty. Joel: We've got a good show in store for everyone. Chad: Oh yeah, this is a good one. And kicking off, I've got to say, Adam Gordon from candidate.ID wins- Joel: No, no, dude. Chad: What? What? What? I've got- Joel: I didn't know if you're going to save it till the end, or just come out swinging. Chad: No, we're coming out swinging. Joel: So we're coming out swinging. All right. Chad: Yeah, we're going to come out swinging. So, Adam Gordon from candidate ID wins the video of the week, if not the month, if not the fucking year. So on LinkedIn... Adam Gordon, if you know Adam Gordon, awesome guy, amazing marketer, and he probably did this on purpose, probably not, but maybe. He just did a video where he was really combating the whole idea that the talent pipeline funnels are dead, and people are talking about infinity loops, and so on and so forth. So he crafts, it looks like out of cardboard, two things. This one funnel, I guess it was, that looks like a penis, and this person out of cardboard that goes up and down the penis. So I guess it's time for the talent pipeline penis... Joel: Dude, the head of the penis is the job. He acquires the job. Oh man. Chad: That's a win. Dude- Joel: If that doesn't bring out your inner 14-year-old, nothing will. Chad: We were getting ready for the show, it popped up in my feed, I'm like, "What the fuck is this?" I start watching it, and I just could not stop laughing. It is fucking hilarious. Here's, what I'm saying. If you are listening, go directly to LinkedIn right now, look up Adam Gordon. Go to his video. Watch it without- Joel: Recent activity. Chad: ...any audio. Yeah, no audio. Just watch it. It is fucking hilarious, dude. And yes, our inner 12 to 14-year-olds came out. Joel: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You and I sounded like Beavis and Butthead on the other end of the microphones, laughing at this video, because it was just so obviously meat headed. Chad: Yeah. So anybody who actually saw- Joel: Yeah? Chad: ...Adam pulling this together, and watching him do a dry run, and not look at that as a phallic symbol, as a penis, you, my friend, you weren't looking hard enough. Joel: I just can't imagine with the sense of humors that Scottish folks have that that wasn't some subliminal joke that he knew you and I would see and talk about it. Like, it's that genius of marketing that he knew we'd talk about it if he posted it. Chad: Yes, I agree. And another video... Going to jump into this while we're talking about 12-year-olds, because we just, pretty much, interviewed a 12-year-old yesterday on Firing Squad. His name is Adam Chambers. Firing Squad's going to come out probably next week, week after. It'll be sometime this month. But from a company called Applichat, and it was hilarious because he has been getting ready for Firing Squad on Chad and Cheese for a while now, and he jumps on, his mic sounds like shit. You can tell he's in like a little boxy office, where it's just echoing like hell, and then, for probably about two to three minutes, you hear him kind of like, running around looking for another place. And then what does he do, Joel? Joel: He lays down in a bunch of pillows to do the interview, and then he videotapes the whole thing, and then posts it everywhere, so good on him, man. Like, the dude can't be a day over 16. I'm convinced. Like, there's just no... And you learn this in the Firing Squad, he does video streams with his customers, like they have to look at him and think, "Can you even drink legally? I don't understand. I actually bought something from you." Chad: "Are you an intern?" Joel: Yeah, like... "Is this a joke? Am I being Punk'd? I don't get it." Chad: So Adam Chambers, congrats buddy. That was awesome. Joel: Good on you, man. Shout out. Chad: Yes, you deserve big time shout-out for getting couch cushions, laying on the ground, and sounding awesome during Firing Squad. Joel: No doubt, no doubt. Shout-out to Job.com and AssesFirst. We posted their death-match presentations on the feed this week. Always entertaining and always nice, and also thanks to Alexander Mann Solutions for sponsoring Death Match. Chad: That's right, that's right. Shout out to the US Postal Service for eating their own dog food and using direct mail to recruit. Now, did you actually get that in the mail? Joel: I actually got that in the mail. It was for jobs at the post office. They show the hourly rate, hourly pay for those. Most of them were rural jobs, so I assume that they're having trouble filling some of those rural positions. But yeah, I'm sure that's a pretty cost-effective way for the post office to promote its jobs. It's sort of like when Google promotes its job openings on Google. Chad: Very nice. Joel: Shout out to Recruitology. Chad: Oh. Joel: We have a new Shred sponsor. Chad: Hello. Joel: They were lucky enough to get in on our first story, the SmashFly Symphony Talent acquisition, so they couldn't have gotten it on a better time to get their message out. So go check out Recruitology and learn more. Chad: Yes. Shout out to so-called job search experts/life coaches/whatever the fuck they want to call themselves. I would really love for these people to stop peddling stupid shit to job-seekers. I was on Twitter earlier this week, and Liz Ryan, her handle is @humanworkplace, and she's also the author of the book Re-invention Roadmap. There's more to that, you can figure that out if you want to. I saw somebody reply to one of her tweets, and she had a question. The question on her tweet was, "Even if a company recruiter reaches out to you, you still have to fill out an application." Yeah- SFX: That is one big pile of shit. Chad: How would you get into their system otherwise, right? And then she goes on to answer the question. Answer, "Everyday people have casual conversations about jobs, even more casual conversations about pain and solutions, and blah, blah, blah, blah. They do all of this without filling out forms." And it's like, wait a minute. People can't even see you in their system to be able to talk to you about a job, to push you through the process, from a compliance standpoint, unless you're in the fucking system. Now we all know, don't get me wrong, the application process, for the most part, sucks. But you still have to go through that process if you're looking to get the job. And what she's saying is, "Yeah, just go have drinks with a recruiter. That's the way that you get the job." And possibly fined by the EEOC or OFCCP, right? There's that option, too. Joel: Just be on the internet, that's all you need. Shout out to Kenzie Academy. No one else would know this story. This is a local company in Indianapolis. They got 100 million fricking dollars to help lower-income, urban kids learn engineering skills, so good for them. We talk a lot about going outside of the traditional education road, and these guys are making waves in that industry. So Kenzie Academy, good on you. We need more engineers, and you just got $100 million to train some more. Chad: Yeah, so, I would love for companies to start picking up the ball on this, instead of having to do grants. I mean, $100 million is awesome. This whole story is awesome, but the biggest problem here is this isn't a part of the actual fabric of what an organization is doing to be able to drive the types of talent that they want into their company, long-term. Chad: And again, we look at the military, and what the military has done over the years to be able to subsidize individuals' college, whether it's on the front end with ROTC, or the back end with the actual military college funds that they have. These are the ways that we get the types of individuals into our positions, not just today, but next month, next year, and the next five years, and this is how we get the skills that we need to get it done. I love this from the standpoint of... We do have areas, segments... Whether it's around Indianapolis or any major metro anywhere in the United States that is underserved. We need to do a better job there. And this is a great story about how we here in Indiana are at least making that happen. Joel: Go Hoosiers. Chad: Good shit. Joel: Shout out to the gig economy that had a pretty tough week this week. Uber released Q3 earnings. They're losing over a billion dollars a quarter. Ouch. They're telling everyone that 2021 is going to be the year of profitability. Wag, which as a dog owner you probably know about, is a company that will pay people, sort of gig-wise, to walk your dog. There's an app, and they tell you when your dog pooped, and how many times he peed, and all that good stuff. So they're trying to sell the hell out of this company. They got $300 million in investment. Word is they're trying to sell it for about a third of that cost. And then Airbnb, we had some fun Halloween murders at one of the Airbnb rentals- Chad: Never good. Joel: ...So it was a tough week for the gig economy. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I don't know if it's a canary in the coal mine kind of stuff, but 2020 should be an interesting time for the gig economy. Chad: I agree. And we'll be watching. Go figure. Joel: Obviously. Chad: Big shout-out to all veterans. Veterans day's coming on Monday here in the United States. And instead of just doing the regular, thanking a veteran for their service, say something, or better yet, do something that's meaningful for that veteran, right? Buy them a coffee or something like that. Doesn't have to be charity. Just do something meaningful that's more than, "Hey, thanks for your service." Joel: Go hug a vet, everybody. Chad: Give them a big hug. Joel: Just keep them the hell away from Adam Gordon, because that dude's got issues. All right, you're ready to get to the news? Chad: SmashFly acquired by Symphony Talent. Joel: Symphony Talent. Chad: Wow. Joel: Formerly known as Hodes. Chad: Yeah. Findly- Joel: Hodes. Chad: ...Hodes. Joel: Kind of... Chad: Yeah, there is a lot out there. You know what really interested me, before we get into the guts of this? The press release didn't mention Thom Kenney at all. Joel: Well, he's gone, right? Basically. Chad: Yeah, but he's the CEO who took the reins over a little bit of a year ago. Joel: Yeah. Chad: And in, I mean, this is his third acquisition. So, I mean, personally, I don't think this acquisition happens without having a leader like that, and then also the team that's under him, to be able to really inspire them to do what they did. And they've been around since 2007, right? He takes the reins... First he was the CTO, that's when we first interviewed him, he was the CTO. Took over as CEO. Pretty pivotal player in this, but void of the press release. Joel: Yeah, and a very vocal CEO. He's been on our show, at least once or twice, and if nothing else, the blueprint for this is usually, Thom will be joining the advisory board, or he'll be part of whatever for the transition period, and then Tom puts a quote in there like, "This is a great marriage, the future's bright, blah blah blah." So yeah, I agree that not having him in the release, especially for a company, two companies that know marketing pretty well, is an interesting take, for sure. Chad: Either way, great exit. He's on the beach sipping fruity drinks. Margaritas, May Tais, some shit like that. Good for him. Great for the staff at SmashFly, and congrats Symphony. Joel: Yeah. Now, you're closer to this a little bit than I am. I mean, any insight on what brand are they going to go with? Who's going to come over to what? Are people getting different positions? Do you have any insight in terms of that aspect of things? Chad: Yeah, there haven't been huge shifts. Financial terms were not disclosed. Roopesh Nair is the president and CEO of Symphony Talent, is going to lead the new SmashFly organization. I have to say that, give some props to Roopesh, because you might remember, there was a lot of mess to clean up, because First Advantage was acquired by... God, what were they called at the time? There was just STG, so the actual STG, the PE firm, bought First Advantage in 2011, then they acquired Findly in 2012, who acquired Bernard Hodes in 2013, and there was a train wreck. I mean, there were all these different brands, all these different technologies, people running around, cats and dogs living together. Then Symphony Talents group, the actual private equity group, stepped up from the background and said, "This shit's going to stop." So in 2016 created Symphony Talent and I believe that's when Roopesh actually came into to start leading the organization. So I think it's important to understand all the pieces, parts in the history of how these two organizations are coming together. Joel: Yep. I had totally forgot about Findly. Thanks for bringing them up. Blast from the past. So you did the Shred on this, and it was a great Shred, so talk about what the companies do and what sort of... Your insight on competitive advantage against... Obviously, TMP is in the picture here as well. And then you talk a little bit about some of the other competitors to SmashFly, and what they might be looking at doing, such as Beamery. Chad: Yeah, so you have two organizations that are coming together that are going to have a portfolio of over 600 companies, big logos that they're actually servicing. One of the things that we've noticed with Symphony Talent is that there was nothing to notice, really. I mean, from a marketing standpoint, from a PR standpoint, what have you, they've been very stealthy in what they've been doing. But I believe, and what we're hearing, the rumblings-wise, is that is going to change with this acquisition. Being able to pull in a big brand, a very vocal brand, like SmashFly, that, to me, is really the exciting part to see how those two brands come together. Joel: Now from my standpoint, to me, SmashFly is the far better brand of these two, and if I were making recommendations, I would say, "Get rid of the Symphony brand and put it all under SmashFly." What are your thoughts? Chad: Yeah, that won't happen, because you've got to remember who the private equity group is. Symphony Talent Group, right? They created Symphony Talent because of all the disparate brands and services and technology that they had before to be able to consolidate. I think they'll pull SmashFly in and the SmashFly brand will eventually go away. It is a strong brand, it's an awesome brand, but I think it will eventually go away. And overall I think it does make sense from a strategic standpoint. But the question is how do they pivot all of this momentum into the Symphony brand? Joel: It's not easy. It never is. Chad: No. Joel: And we talk a lot about these acquisitions like they're going to snap their fingers and it's going to be hunky dory, and everyone's going to get along, and it's going to be great. And acquisitions are hard. Like, tech is different, people are different, locations or different, cultures are different. This, by no means, although it's been touted as a great move, is a slam-dunk success, just like any other acquisition out there. But I do think that when we look at combining forces and the CRM piece with the ATS, and the branding, and all that, it's a great move. And you think it's a direct sort of strike against what TMP's doing, particularly on maybe the programmatic side, and one-ups them, I guess, on the CRM piece? Chad: Yeah. I mean, TMP has four acquisitions this year so far, but I believe this one is actually bigger than the sum of those four. Joel: Yeah. Chad: I think that it makes a hell of a lot of sense for Symphony, for TMP... And then you have, like, you think about even smaller firms like RecruitX buying KRT, starting to really understand that the services piece, you can't do this tech without the services anymore. The experience is everything, right? So you can't do one without the other, which makes me wonder what's going happen with Beamery and Phenom. I know Workday has some money, I believe, into Beamery, but Workday doesn't have the services that a company's going to need from an experience and a creative standpoint. Phenom is trying to be that for everybody, but there's going to be a limit for them to be able to do that. So it'll be interesting to watch all of that, all of that come together if it does. Joel: Yeah, I agree. I guess within the chat bot world, although we don't talk a lot about Emerson, it is one of their product offerings at SmashFly, and it'll be interesting to see how Emerson evolves. Chad: That's a Paradox product. That's a partnered product. So, that's not an asset. I mean, Emerson is really just a new face on Paradox. Joel: So, does this put Paradox in the catbird seat to be acquired by Symphony? Chad: It's a good possibility. Joel: Possible. Chad: And to be that integrated into a system where you didn't even know it was white-labeled into a system? That says something for that kind of a partnership. That's what they wanted. Joel: Any other commentary on this acquisition? Chad: It's just exciting. Watching all of these players move, acquire, shift, is pretty exciting. From my standpoint, wanting to get on the horn with Joe Shaker, this has got to be exciting for him and Shaker Recruitment Marketing, as well, because, again, this just brings more validation that creative means more than anything when it comes to this. You can have any tech that you want, but if you have a shitty experience, you don't have creative build around it, you don't have great messaging, all of it fucking sucks. So I think right now is definitely the age of the ad agency. Joel: And the ATS, maybe? Chad: Maybe the ATS. Joel: Agency and ATS? Chad: Possibly. Joel: It's definitely like, who can collect the most toys? It's sort of like, who can buy the most job sites in 2005? Chad: Yeah, that's not the case, though, because Monster collected a shit-ton of toys, threw them in the closet, and didn't do anything with them. So it's all about who can exact, right, who can actually execute on those toys? Monster is sucking right now, because they were acquiring... Who knows why they were acquiring, other than for trophies. But yeah, I mean, they're going to have to execute on these acquisitions. Joel: All right, let's take a break. Let's listen from a word from Sovren and we'll talk about HireVue under fire. Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren. Software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: HireVue AI under fire. Chad: Yeah, it's pretty interesting. This is in the Washington Post. A prominent rights group is urging the Federal Trade Commission, that's the FTC for all of you out there, to take on the recruiting technology company HireVue, arguing that the firm has turned to unfair and deceptive trade practices in its use of face-scanning technologies to assess job candidates. Chad: This is pretty big man. I mean this really is for a company like HireVue, who is really focused heavily on AI and tech, and then they start talking about the face-scanning ability. Bias is going to hit them very hard. I don't know how they back out of this. Joel: Yeah, we've talked about the Illinois law that came out to make them... Make more transparency in terms of job-seekers knowing that they're being analyzed by artificial intelligence. This group, EPIC, which is what they're called, officially, the Electronic Privacy Information Center. EPIC sounds a lot more intimidating. But they've come out and said, they've made an argument... Now, the FTC has not done anything to date, which is important to note. The FTC declined to comment, as well as did HireVue, but to me that the statement from the release that the post talked about was, EPIC said that HireVue's, quote, "Intrusive collection and secret analysis of biometric data causes substantial privacy and financial harms." They added, "Because these algorithms are secret, it is impossible for job candidates to know how their personal data is being used, or to consent to such uses." Joel: Yeah, this is some real shit. It goes back to privacy stuff, the individual, how are they being impacted, and I think it's even a bigger potential strike against AI in general. And we talk about white box and black box, and transparency, and how is this stuff being used? Like, companies are going to have to publish how this stuff is being used, how it's being diced and sliced, and how companies and people are affected by it. Chad: Yes, yeah. No, so in the New York Times, sometime last year, they actually did a piece on facial recognition and whether it was accurate or not, and it is very accurate if you're a white guy. When the person in the photo is a white guy, the software is right about 99% of the time, but the darker the skin, the more errors arise, up to nearly 35% for our images of darker-skinned women. And again, this is all about bias, and we're just talking about skin color right now. What about an individual who has a disability, and they don't react the way that quote, unquote, the AI has been trained to see how a reaction happens, right? What if you're nervous, what's the difference between being nervous or well-rehearsed? I mean, because that person was nervous, does that mean that they can't do the job? This has nothing to do with qualifications, and it has everything to do with bias. Joel: Yeah. And let's not forget Amazon originally tried this and scrapped the whole system because of the bias that was basically built in to the system. Chad: Yep. Didn't want them women. Got to get them women out of here, right? I mean this is, again, it's just another way for us to be able to impact a segment of the population who has already been negatively impacted. It makes no fucking sense. So, if you are HireVue, and you are listening, we know you are, you need to back the fuck out of this, man. This makes no sense whatsoever. If you're doing this behind the scenes, and you're not selling it as a product because you're trying to learn things, okay, great. This is something that you've got to get away from. Joel: And EPIC added that robots compare you against existing success stories, they don't look for out-of-the-box candidates, interestingly. Chad: Not all humans are the same. Not everybody reacts the same. And again, it's too biased. We've got to get away from this. Joel: Yeah. What is a model employee, right? That's very subjective. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Well, moving on from HireVue and privacy, we go to Indeed's privacy policy, which has been updated. I received an email, which I'm sure many others did, that Indeed was basically putting its privacy policy under all of its sister companies, which include Glassdoor, and quite a few other companies, and it's under the... Interestingly, under the URL hrtechprivacy.com, some of the other sites in addition to Glassdoor... You'll remember SimplyHired, you'll remember Sift, a recent acquisition, Resume.com. Canadians will know Workopolis, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Joel: So they're basically coming out and putting all your data, potentially, under all these sites, is basically how I read it. They'll all be under the same brand. Interestingly, on this page, they have the benefits of data sharing. The last point of the benefits... "Data sharing facilitates better security for users." I'm not sure in what world sharing data is more secure. But anyway, quote, "Such data-sharing allows our sites to better protect their users. In particular, it allows the sites to improve user security and internal operations to troubleshoot and detect and prevent fraud and spam." So if you're on Indeed, suspect that your data is on all of their sister sites very soon, if not already. Chad: Yeah. This, to me, seemed more CYA than anything else. They've got to cover their asses for GDPR, and the big question is how a job-seeker can go into their system and do all of these things. How can I change my data? How can I delete my data? Those types of things. That's the big key. They own the data. Not Indeed, but again, I think we see more companies doing this just to be able to do a CYA dance around GDPR, and the regulations that will come to the US. Joel: Yep. Also, interesting how it could affect employers. I have heard rumblings that although Indeed isn't on Google For Jobs in most parts of the world, that jobs are being crossed-posted to Glassdoor, and then those jobs are being listed on Google For Jobs, which is a way for Indeed to kind of get around that whole public stance. So yeah, this whole trading of data and sharing of data, Indeed took another step into doing that. It affects employees and job-seekers for sure, but it probably extends over to all their users. Chad: Agreed. Joel: Let's get a quick word from Canvas, and we'll talk about four-day weeks, and CareerBuilder's new sponsorship. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvas bot is at your side, adding automation to your workflow. Canvas: Canvas leverages the latest in machine-learning technology, and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy, and are laser-focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: Let's talk four-day work weeks. Who doesn't love four-day work weeks? All right. Chad: I do! Joel: So Microsoft Japan trialed a four-day work week over the summer, and found productivity actually increased by 39.9% and absences decrease by more than 25%. The company also found that 92.1% of workers who participated in the trial said they enjoyed the four day workweek. Why that wasn't 100%, I'm not quite sure, but it still is a good number of folks. Chad: I think, or at least some of the studies that I've seen, is that after a while, some individuals really enjoy their space, their workspace. They love being around people, and then when they're not that one day, they feel like they're missing something. So yeah, I think those people are weird, but they exist. Chad: And again, this is what makes us human. They were different, we are different. So that 8% or whatever it was... Probably just people who they are driven off of... They get energy off of being in their office and being around other people. The rest of them love to be able to get a little silence from that fucker who won't leave you alone, and actually get some work done. Joel: Yeah, that guy who clips his toenails next to you is a real pain in the ass. But to me, if four day work-weeks became the norm, we'd have the same issues as we do on a five-day work week. In other words, because it was special, people probably felt like, "Oh, I'm getting, I'm getting a reward. I'm getting something, a benefit, so I'm going to work harder. I'm not going to miss days because I'm missing that extra day." If work weeks were just four days long, we'd have the same problems that we do with a five-day work week. So when it becomes not special, then it's not a big deal, sort of like casual Fridays, right? That used to be a big deal, now pretty much everyday is casual Friday in every office, so it's not a thing anymore. Chad: And one of the reasons cited for the increase in productivity is that people realize they had less time to do their work, so they ended up spending less time in meetings. So this started changing their behavior. So I think what's happening is that that extra day has pretty much padded everything with meetings, and we needed to get our shit done, so we had to compress time to get our shit done, and boom, it got done. That all comes down to, I really think it depends on the load that an individual has to get done, and how fast they work it. I mean, there are some individuals who can really get shit done, great product, great service, or what have you, in a very short amount of time, and some others it takes a little bit longer. So I think that's what you're going to see. Joel: I also don't think that with the virtuality of jobs now that you never really get a day off, aside from maybe Sunday. So it'd be interesting to know if these people were still working on Friday, although it was at home, that maybe if they were more productive at home, that that made up for the total productivity throughout the week. Either way, the story is sort of generalized, and we aren't digging into this extensively, but there are a lot of variables here that could be coming into play that we're not thinking about, or know. Chad: I think it's pretty simple. It doesn't matter where you work, you have a specific amount of work that has to be done. It'll be done or you don't have a job. Joel: Yeah, basically. Chad: Yeah, that's fairly simple. So it doesn't matter if I'm sitting... And this is what I always... I had an issue with a boss of mine who was stuck in the 19-fucking-50s, "Be there at 8:00! Don't leave before 5:00! And if you leave at 5:01 that's still bad." That kind of a thing. And it's like, yeah, but my team is getting their shit done. As a matter of fact, they're killing it. That is the metric in which we should be looking at, as opposed to 9:00 to 5:00. Whether it's four days a week or five days a week, it's what you give them, the actual mission. And again, this is more of kind of like my military bearing, I think is more focused on the mission and objectives. Did we hit it? Did we knock it out of the park then? Then yes, then you can do that wherever you want. I don't care where you work, just get it on. Joel: Yeah. We have some good information from our buddy Jamie Leonard at RecFest, who tried this four-day work week and really liked it, I guess. Chad: Yeah, he did, and as a matter of fact we're going to be talking to him tomorrow, so look for a podcast. So we'll come out talking a little bit more deeply into what they did at the recruitment events company, how it worked, and there were pros and cons, and we're looking forward to talking to him about that. Joel: All right. CareerBuilder has a new sponsorship, which is odd. They're sponsoring the WWE, that's the World Wrestling- Chad: Entertainment Company, or something. Joel: Entertainment Company, yeah. They've left their sponsorship with the PGA, which I guess they had for three-some years, and they've come over to wrestling, or wrasslin' as we call it here in Indiana. And it seems like a very odd target market business. Aside from the demographics, the business is tanking, it's a public company, so we know that viewership over the last five years is basically cut in half. Younger people don't give a shit anymore. They'd rather play Xbox and, whatever, Fortnite. Joel: So this is a challenge business, although you could certainly say CareerBuilder is also a challenge business, so maybe they just got this sponsorship off the clearance rack. Although sponsorships with wrestling typically doesn't strike me as an inexpensive opportunity. Chad: Right. Joel: So they're trying to get people to download the mobile app at these things. Now, they're not pushing Pokemon Go for jobs. I think it'd be funny if you could, like, point your phone at certain wrestlers and maybe they could sponsor jobs for each wrestler, and companies could, like, NASCAR each wrestler. But anyway, I think this is sort of a funny sponsorship. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Usually companies with jobs try to sponsor technology or diversity, which I guess WWE does. What are your thoughts? Chad: I think... Hello, CareerBuilder, 2010 called, and they want their marketing campaign back. I mean, this is everybody trying to download apps and all that shit when it was really hot, and it's ridiculous. I don't know why you're trying to get somebody to jump through all these fucking hoops. Chad: It's interesting that they went from one demographic, being the PGA, to an entirely different demographic, being the WWE. That's more of a marketing demographic target than anything else, but it is a big swing. Last year they had Pokemon for jobs. They're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on HR tech space. It's just none of this makes sense what they're doing. None of it makes sense. Joel: Yeah. Let's have a 10 by 10 booth at HR Tech, and sponsor WWE. Now, I would get behind it if they brought the CareerBuilder monkeys back, and the monkeys could wrestle in the ring. Now that would be something I could get behind. Chad: Yes, and I'm not behind any of this by the way, just so... We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to... What's it called? A podcast. The Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know, and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one. Cheddar. Blue, nacho, Pepperjack, Swiss! So many cheeses, and not one word. So weird. Walken: Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And, while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out. #SymphonyTalent #Smashfly #CRM #HireVue #bias #Careerbuilder #Microsoft #TMP #Recruitics #KRT #Shaker

How does an old stodgy bank start-up a new cool brand? Is a bank even allowed to build a cool brand? Is that a thing? It certainly is and Alexandra Nuth aka "The Nuth-inator" talks to the guys about how spinning the new Challenger Brand - Brightside - out of ATB happened. All of this cult branding goodness brought to you by Smashfly recruiting technology built for the talent life cycle. And big believers in building relationships with brands, not jobs. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your bridge to the disability community, delivering custom solutions in outreach, recruiting, talent management and compliance. Joel: This Chad & Cheese Cult Brand Podcast is supported by SmashFly, recruiting technology built for the talent life cycle, and big believers in building relationships with brands, not jobs. Let SmashFly help tell your story and keep relationships at the heart of your CRM. For more information, visit smashfly.com today. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Are you ready for the Nuth-inator? Chad, what's up man? We're talking to another Canadian. This is becoming a really bad habit of ours. Welcome to the show everyone. This is the Chad & Cheese Podcast. I am Joel Cheesman accompanied by my cohost. Chad: Chad Sowash. Joel: And today, we are blessed to have Alexandra, Alex, the Nuth-inator, Nuth. Alex, I think I can call you that because we're friends now. Welcome to the show. Alex: Thank you. Joel: No one in our audience probably knows who you are, give them the elevator pitch, an intro on you as well as your organization. Alex: For sure. My name is Alex Nuth, I'm a born and raised Canadian, but I'm actually a dual citizen so I'm also American, so I'm happy when everyone wins at the Olympics, especially in hockey. Joel: Very nice. Very nice. My wife is shooting for that dual citizenship. Alex: It's pretty awesome. But yeah, I'm in the Canadian Rockies in Calgary, which isn't much of a tech hub, too many people that don't know much about it. But we actually have some pretty cool things happening in our city, and a little bit of under the radar place for some really cool HR and great companies and some great technology that's coming out. I work for ATB Financial, which is a regional financial institution in Canada. In the Canadian landscape we're pretty small. We've got about 6,000 employees and about a million customers. But when we look at the North American landscape, we're actually quite large. We'd be about like the 20th largest bank in North America. We're pretty much about the right size to do some really cool tech investments and really great innovations and really invest in our people, but we're not so big that we get bogged down in a lot of bureaucracy and aren't afraid to take risks. Alex: It's a pretty cool organization, and I've been on a journey for about the last two years now to build a challenger brand from scratch. It's a bit of a skunkworks project for ATB Financial where we got pushed out of the organization, a whole new tech stack, got to hire people completely differently than ATB does it, and we were able to really kind of reinvent things from the ground up. We have a new brand called Brightside, which is the challenger brand, and we're hoping to actually go to public launch within about a month. So it's a pretty exciting time for us right now. Joel: Do you have time to talk to us? Jeez- Alex: I have a great team. Joel: I feel so special right about now. Chad: Stop asking those questions, she's going to leave. So building a challenger brand, but yet you still have this ATB old stodgy brand, how do you build a challenger brand in the financial space? Because I mean, is it really hip? Is it cool? How do you make it cool and hip? Alex: We're actually pretty lucky, ATB is actually a great place to work. We're typically in number two or number three place of the best places to work in Canada, and we've got a great culture that comes along with that top class store rating. So we're really lucky that we actually had a pretty good foundation to grow from, but at the same time, it was pretty hard to try to beat that as well and try to make that even better and cooler than what ATB is doing. ATB is like the first one to do blockchain, cross border. We've done some great investments into agile, trying to be a tech company, and we're really ahead of a lot of our competitors. So that made it a little bit easier for us to really try to push the boundaries even more because we have a lot of appetite for that at the company. Alex: But in terms of trying to make it cool, I think one of the things that was really interesting when we first started up the team, and we only had about six when we first started the team two years ago and we're over a hundred now, we really tried to find people that weren't bankers. That was kind of the number one thing we were looking for, people that really wanted to change things and break things. And so we hired a very different DNA, a very different type of person, and I think a lot of times people think that means younger, and that's not necessarily true. We just really hired people that don't really fit into molds very well, and really had some big aspirations for what they wanted to achieve. It was really the purpose over the work. We have people coming in every day because they really want to do something different and really break banking from the ground up. Chad: So that's the big question is purpose, right? So what is the purpose that actually draws all those individuals to want to come and break things in the financial industry? Alex: That was really hard because we found really early on, nobody really cares about their bank. Banking's pretty commoditized. People are pretty apathetic, and banks aren't really cool. It's not one of those things where people are talking about it at a barbecue, "My bank was so cool, they did this thing for me." It's usually when they're complaining about their banks. So we were really trying to figure out, what does that look like? We started first with our customer, and really looked at where our customers not being served well currently. One of the things we found is that banks typically try to put people into nice, clean life stages or boxes or kind of tell you that the successful end state is that you're going to retire on a sailboat with gray hair. Alex: We don't think people are really following that prescription of success anymore, so our purpose is really around helping people save and do what's right in the future without sacrificing for today, and serving people as they are, not as they should be. So we're never stepping in to say, "You should have this much in your retirement account," or, "You shouldn't be spending money on that coffee every day even though it makes you happy." It's about saying, "That's who you are, and we're all flawed and that's okay, so how do we just help you do that, and be yourself without trying to make you feel bad about it." Joel: I'm curious from an employment perspective, it sounds like you guys almost started from the ground up in terms of the talent that came to work for the new company. Was that a bit of a minefield? Did you have a lot of good people at ATB saying, "Well, I want to work with this cool, digital bank site. Why do I have to stay here at ATB?"? Or was that a problem? How did you handle the people that were maybe jealous or wanted to come over to the new company? Alex: We actually have a very funny story for the first kind of founding six that we hired. So it was with our old CEO, he's quite the visionary and he was one of the guys that really took us from really low engagement scores up to about 90% and really changed the culture at ATB. And so he had this kind of idea to do a bit of an experiment and almost like a secret interview for the first set of people. And so what we actually did is we identified about 35 high performers from across the company, and then we created this facilitated kind of two day workshop where we put people into purposeful conflict and lots of really hard situations. We gave them a problem to solve over the workshop that was pretty much unsolvable. We knew that we weren't going to come out with an answer, and we watched them and we had some facilitators and ourselves walk around and watch them and see what happened. Chad: That's just mean. You put them in a cage with some boxing gloves. Joel: That's why she's the Nuth-inator, dude. Chad: Sorry. Keep going. Alex: It was fascinating though, because there's a lot of people that were high performing in ATB, and then through that process you start to learn that maybe they're not comfortable killing their ideas, or maybe they can't step out of their comfort zone or they're not as collaborative as you might think they are, maybe they're trying to showboat a little bit. And so through that process, we were able to kind of whittle it down and say, for the DNA that we needed at this venture, which was around people that are just going to work really hard and aren't going to be swayed by the highest paid person's opinion, the hippos in the room. And aren't going to get stuck on an idea, not give it up, and are comfortable stepping outside of their areas of expertise and just helping out a team. Alex: We were able to create this initial team that had so much chemistry and was totally the right DNA for us to really go try to break banking in a meaningful way. And then from that, they were able to hire people beneath them that were able to still have that part of the DNA. So we definitely had a lot of people across ATB putting up their hands, but we've been very, very strict on the types of people that we want to bring in, and the fact that they all have to fit into that very teamwork oriented, very fast, not holding onto those ideas and being able to really think differently about things. Chad: Curious from sort of a longer term perspective, to piggyback on that point, will the new company, Brightside, have its own HR department? Will they have their own recruiters looking for unique people to that organization? Or do you believe that the cultures will sort of bleed together and have sort of the same DNA, if you will, or same vision? Or will they remain separate in the longterm vision? Alex: We haven't really figured out the answer, to be perfectly honest. It's a little hard as we've evolved. Early on, we definitely did things more separately, and I think now we're starting to learn that there's some areas that we can definitely collaborate. I'd say some of the things like just HR administration, recruiting, some of those pieces, it makes sense for us to work with ATB, because they're recruiting many of the same roles, and so we can find great talent all at once and not compete with each other. But in other areas, rewards and recognition, we're doing a lot around rituals and how do we get rituals across the team that get people excited and motivated towards our goals and towards celebrating our wins. Alex: Those things are more custom for us, and those are things that we're running with, and that we've got dedicated people within our teams working on. So we're trying to figure out what the secret sauce is, and really invest in that within our four walls. And then anything that's not really the differentiators or really substantially influencing the employee value prop, we're using the parent for. Chad: So you're starting with Brightside, this kind of cult brand journey, right? First question is how did you even find out about this? We just did last year, right? And we totally got immersed into it. How did you find out about it? And what's the starting point of actually getting Brightside on that journey? Alex: We worked with Cult Marketing who kind of specialize in the cult brand arena. And again, it comes back to that purpose and trying to make sure that you're doing things, not just for profits, not just for the kind of extrinsic values that drive a lot of companies and drive a lot of people, but what's the intrinsic motivation for everybody to show up and to be doing the right things for customers? So the inside out brand is something that we've talked a lot about. So how do we make sure that the brand that we have within the four walls and how our employees are thinking about our customers, and how do we bring the customer into everything that we're doing, from rewards and recognition to training, to time that they have to spend talking to customers every month, or actually working in our sales and service functions? Alex: How do we bring the customer into our employees? And then how does that then translate out into what the brand shows up for? Because we believe that if there's a disconnect between how people work and what they prioritize at work, and what we're doing externally in the market, that that disconnect will show up in our product. It'll show up in our services. It'll show up in everything. So it's really been this journey about how do we really kind of bring what we want to be outside and first start to live it inside. Joel: Alex, you did a interview with a Calgary magazine, Avenue Magazine, fairly recently, and the article is titled, Four Ways to Optimize Customer Experience in the Digital Age. If you would humor me, there are four pieces that you highlight, could we talk about each of those four separately, just real quickly. I think our listeners would love to know what are the four ways that you recommend optimizing in digital environments. So number one is put customers before tech. Alex: Yeah. I think one of the things I found a lot ... And I try to avoid banking conferences as much as I can, because I- Joel: Oh, I can't imagine why. Chad: They're so exciting. They're probably just as exciting as HR conferences by the way. Alex: I find that they're all saying the same thing. And bankers, yeah, they're always like, "Oh, everyone loves math and everyone loves analytics and wants to do tons of spreadsheets for their finances." That's not true. But I think that's a big thing is that a lot of times when organizations are trying to innovate or work on customer experience, they start with the tech and then try to backwards engineer into the problem that's solving for customers. So when you think about organizations looking at trends, you hear the typical ones of analytics, AI, blockchain, wearables, voice, all these kind of technologies, but that's really separated from what the customer actually wants. Alex: And so where we've kind of oriented is if those things help solve a customer problem, great, but we're not going to start there and then try to say, "Hey customers, how do you want to use voice banking?" We had a lot of customers that even said, "My bank allows me to do Siri Pay, but I can't even get my card reissued in two days, and then I'm without money for two days," or, "My card gets frozen when I'm traveling and I have no access to cash." Those are the things that matter to them a lot more than whether or not they can do Siri Pay. And so sometimes the investments into customer experience try to go towards, it has to be frictionless, or it has to look a certain way from a technology standpoint, but it's missing the mark substantially for what customers actually want and need in their experiences. So we're going more on that side. Alex: And again, a lot of the places where we're focusing on is customer rationality. People don't like math, people don't really like to look at their money, it doesn't always make them feel good. And even though they might know what they should do, it doesn't necessarily mean that more technology that highlights where they're not doing something well is the answer. I relate a lot back into fitness industry. I know if I ate that donut, I'm going to gain weight. I don't really want someone to tell me not to eat the doughnut, I just want to eat the donut. Joel: Which is a great segue into maybe your second point of don't try to boil the ocean. Alex: Yeah. And I think that's exactly part of it. I think a lot of times, everyone's trying to catch up with competitors, lots of table stakes, trying to add feature sets, wanting to have a deep product shelf. And we're just trying to figure out, again, to that tech kind of startup way, what's the MVP? What's the real focus that we can do for one customer segment really well to build that customer love and then expand from there? We're not trying to be things ... Everything to all people or trying to make everyone happy, because we don't believe we'll win or get that real kind of cult brand or that love if we're just kind of vanilla to everybody. Chad: We'll get back to the interview in a minute, but first, a quick question for Chris Kneeland about The Gathering of Cult Brands. Joel: The vast majority of our listeners are in talent acquisition, human resources, recruiting. Many of them, if not all of them, have never heard of the Cult Gathering before maybe we started talking about it. For those who are now learning about and maybe asking, "Should I attend? Or should we send someone?" What message would you send them? Chris Kneeland: Yeah. Well, it's why I'm so grateful to have met you guys, frankly, because for years we've been talking about this three legged stool of customers, prospects and staff, but we've been under-representing the staff portion in terms of our attendees, in terms of some of the subject matter experts that should be there. So even though the CEOs and the brand leaders will talk at length about the things they do to enhance their culture, we haven't had an equal number of people in the audience to be able to action that great advice. So yeah, I would say, again, anybody who feels a responsibility to create a business that people will care about, and those people can be customers or employees, would have a ton to learn from the most notable brands on the world. Getting a sneak peek into, what are their talent acquisition strategies? Chris Kneeland: One of the things that we even ask in the interview process is what percentage of your new hires come from employee referrals versus more traditional headhunting or recruiter fees? You talk to somebody like Zappos, they have 20,000 people on a waiting list in order for the privilege to go work inside that company. Unfortunately, they're the exception, not the rule, and that's because lots of brands have a lots of room for improvement about how they're going about nurturing their talent acquisition strategies. Chad: Register now at cultgathering.com. Joel: Yeah. And then you close it up with remember the emotional experience and make it fun. Alex: Yeah. And that kind of comes back to the rationality piece. We believe money is emotional, it's almost like relationships, and people have huge emotions towards it, and a lot of it’s learned behavior. It's not something people talk about a whole lot. And so again, it's easy to say that everybody should just be able to read some PDFs and understand where to put their money and that it's super easy math. But at the end of it all, there's social pressures to spend pieces of money or spend a certain way or look a certain way. And so trying to help people not change some of those emotional parts of themselves, but still be successful to kind of the 10,000 steps in fitness. What are those kind of ways that you can just get people doing the right thing without having them to really overhaul their lives or feel bad about themselves? And I think that's a really important piece. Chad: What are those things to make banking fun? Alex: It's not so much fun as much as it's just not painful. Chad: Okay. Alex: We think a lot of it too when we were doing a lot of our work. We don't think banks have much of a voice, and we don't think banks have much of a brand, and so we really want to be our persona that we talk about that we are with our customers is the wise wing woman. We want to show up in that way with every communication that we have with customers that we're there to kind of give them a little bit of advice like your best friend would, but not tell you that we don't love you or that you're stupid or make you feel really bad about it, or just give you facts because nobody just wants facts thrown at them. And so how do you build that into the experience, into the voice, into the way that you're communicating with customers? And those are nuances that are harder to quantify, they're not, "Here's a savings feature, here's a specific product." It's more about how everything's delivered. And I think that's something that banks haven't really thought about a whole lot yet. Chad: One thing that we always hear, especially when we're starting to talk about purpose, when we're starting to talk about cult brand, is people over profits or over boardrooms, right? Now that's easy to say, but from your seat, how do those conversations actually go with bankers and the actual business people when you say, "Hey, don't worry about the profits, we have to worry about the people and then the profits will come around."? What kind of conversations do you get in? And how hard was it to start those conversations? Alex: And again, I'll give a lot of credit to ATB for being quite on the forefront of that. We had a very progressive board that really focused on people first and believed that if you focus on people, everything else will follow. And so it was an easy one for us to continue on with, but we always overinvest in the processes about how people are working, and trying to invest in people's learning and development and getting the right people in our offices and setting them up for success. We also have something at ATB and we use it at Brightside as well, that people deserve great leaders, not perfect leaders. And so it's all around just really trying to pull all the value out of everything and get the costs down, but also not trying to be perfect on the people front either. Alex: It's all around, how do we just really give people a great place to work, where they're going to be their most productive and best selves? So honestly, for us the conversation was quite easy and we're very lucky on that. I think other companies definitely struggle with it a lot more because it is, how many customer service people do you have per call? Not, how did the call make people feel? And are your customer service people exhausted? And so we're focusing more on those other metrics and try to bake those into how we're measuring our success. Joel: We cover diversity and inclusion quite a bit here on the show, and I think it's fair to say that when you think of banking, you think of middle age and old white men in pinstripe suits. Alex: Yeah. Joel: What was it about ATB that appealed to you as a woman? And maybe speaking to young women out there who do want to get into the banking world, but are maybe a little bit intimidated by the aura of what banking is, what advice would you give them coming into the business? Alex: For sure, and that's an interesting one. I think, again, it's kind of the top down leadership. So one of the things when I made the switch to ATB, it was definitely looking at what the leadership team looked like. And again, we've got a board that's 50/50 women and men, so it's all the way down from our board, and we've got those targets and those goals around that. There's a lot of activity that ATB does. Our 11th value for all of our corporate values is around being able to be yourself at work and accepting people's all around diversity and inclusion. It was actually a gift from our departing CEO to us was an 11 value focused on diversity and inclusion. I think when you look at how the organization's investing in those things, actions, what the leadership team makeup looks like, you'll see whether or not they're just talking the talk on diversity inclusion or whether they're actually walking it. And that was something that I looked for. Alex: And definitely joining ATB, I'd say there's other topics like ageism or LGBTQ or women, and those things are just non issues at ATB in many ways. Where there are issues, they work really hard to create policies or help fix those things, whether we're looking and exploring, do we do gender pay corrections if they exist. We're at least figuring out, Do they exist? Do we invest more sponsorship for women with very formal succession planning and making sure that we've got women considered in those places? I would say looking at those investments and asking questions on those investments to find a company that is going to support you is really important, because I think too many ... And I read an article where just putting a rainbow flag on your logo during pride month isn't DNI. Joel: Oh, now you're speaking Chad's language now. Alex: You need to show up every day. Chad: Right. Alex: Yeah. You need to show up every day that way, and you need to have the policies and the processes and the investments to match that kind of talk. Chad: How does that help from a culture standpoint, when you can bring your whole self to work? How does that help you get on track faster to be a cult brand? Does it help or do you think it's just one of the ingredients, but it's not one of the main ingredients? Alex: The thing that I think that it gives is ... My team, we're even more diverse than ATB in terms of makeup. Most of our senior developers are actually women, which is really cool. My head of technology co lead is a woman, I'm a woman, so we've got a lot of women in leadership roles. I think the thing that you get when you're giving people that opportunity to bring, in LGBTQ, their partner to Chris's party and it's a nonissue, you're getting these huge advocates. People really appreciate the fact that they can be themselves, and they're there to fight for you, and you get everything out of them. They are so invested in your success because you're invested in their success and who they are. So you just get these real, passionate hard workers. Alex: I think also, it's kind of that thing where you get access to people that other people have overlooked, and you're just like, "Oh my God, this person is amazing." Thank goodness you came to me. It's a great opportunity to be able to snatch up all this high potential that maybe other companies or other organizations wouldn't support, and be able to just kind of create these superstar teams of people that were overlooked for stupid reasons. Chad: Yeah. Did you hear that everybody? Listen to that. So last from me, what advice would you give a company who want to have a cult brand, but they just don't know where to start? Where do they start? Alex: I think again, it has to be championed by somebody that really believes it. Where I've seen it fall down or where I've seen organizations, and I've talked with a lot of organizations that say, "I want a challenger brand," or, "We're going to create this cult brand that's going to be really cool," but then you start to here, "But I'm scared about the risk or the reporting," or, "I'm scared about what the board's going to think," or those things. You really need to find somebody that's going to say, "We're going to reinvent this," and have someone that's really passionate and believes in it and is going to champion it and really fight for it. And I think that's the biggest thing. You need to fight for that space, because when it's uncomfortable or when your board or your customers are a little bit uncomfortable, you have to stick with it, and I believe that wholeheartedly. Alex: Again, there's a story about our old CEO. I remember a call where one of our customers was quite upset that we were supporting LGBTQ and he just said, "Well then don't be a customer of ours." And I think having that strength to live your purpose every day- Joel: Ballsy. Alex: ... is something we need to be really honest about, to say, can you actually do that? And are you willing to actually do that? So that'd be step one, and step two is just setting up the structures and the processes to do it right. Again, a challenger brand instead of ATB is really easy because ATB is a great culture. And other organizations, I'd say, set it up as a subsidiary, so the parent organization can't influence it. Give it the structures and the processes to make sure it can be successful and it won't get eroded. Joel: All right Alex, I'm going to let you go on this one. I realized that we've been calling you the Nuth-inator this entire podcast, and no one knows exactly why because they weren't in on the pre-recording. Enlighten our audience as to why you have that nickname, and then just go ahead and close it out. Let us know where we can find out more about you and your organization. Alex: Perfect. This nickname has nothing to do with my personality whatsoever. Joel: Obviously not. Chad: Sure. Alex: My fiance is an avid gamer and has been trying to get me into Call of Duty and various other games and needed to create a scary screen name for me on my profile, so he nicknamed me the Nuth-inator for when we were playing together. So it has nothing to do with how I am at work in any way Chad: So if you're on Call of Duty and you get waxed by the Nuth-inator, you know exactly who it was. Joel: Alex, we appreciate your time. For those who want to know more about you or the new company, where should they go? Alex: Our website is hibrightside.ca, and we also have an Instagram channel @hibrightsider that you can follow as well. And then for myself, I'm just on LinkedIn under Alex Nuth. Joel: Outstanding. Thanks for your time today. Chad: Thanks Alex. Alex: Thank you. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #CultBrandSeries #CultBrands #Brand #EmployerBrand #EmploymentBrand #Branding

The Money Shot with George Larocque for Q3 2019 Would you believe the amount of money going into HR tech decreased last quarter? Well, it did. But money man George Larocque ain't scared. In fact, he's as bullish as ever on investment flowing into the space, and he lays it all out for Chad & Cheese in the Sovren exclusive. For more on who got money and who wants more money, tune in now. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions' clients are changing the lives of people with disabilities, including veterans with service related disabilities. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now based on that technology come sovereigns, artificial intelligence, matching and scoring software in fractions of a second, receive mattress faults that provide candidates scored by fit to job. And just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com that's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human Sovren software. So human, you'll want to take it to dinner, Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HRS most dangerous podcast. Chad. Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: All. Yeah, Chad: It's the money shot baby. Joel: Back, back again. And guess who's back? Tell a friend... George Larocque. Chad: George Larocque is back. Joel: Larocque rock out with your…. Uhhh… Chad: Yeah, eh. Well you're, you're in Larocque out. Yeah. So I just thought this is going to be a new segment that we do every quarter called The Money Shot. What do you think? Joel: Are you asking me or George? Chad: I'm asking you. This is our show dip shit. Joel: Oh, well, I don't care what we do. It's George's name gets to be attached to The Money Shot. Chad: George Loves it. It's the money shot with George Larocque. Hello everybody. Joel: I think he left. Is he still there? Chad: Are you there? George George: Can I speak now? You guys need, I got the riot act on the way in about being muted and introductions and stuff. Joel: I'm about your crappy survey. We're talking about what you actually know about your your money. Money, time, money, report, money time. Chad: Before we get to the money shot, tell, tell us about George, the rock. For all those listeners out there who don't know who George is, they've, they've, unfortunately, I don't know who wouldn't, but who is George Larocque and what does this HR Win's thing? George: George Larocque. I'm going to, I know, I don't want to speak in the third person, but I am George Larocque and I'm a market analyst. I've been in the industry for 30 years. I've been in recruiting and in HR, spent 10 years there, 10 years on the vendor side, a couple of good runs with a couple of bigger brands taking Bullhorn and BrassRring to market and a couple and one or two others. And then for the last 10 years I've been a market analyst. So I cover the market, I with employers to help them understand the tech trends and the technology that's out there. Right, a lot of reports about it, work one on one with them. I also work with vendors and do advisory on helping them understand the customer. One of the things I do is track all of the investment the VC and the private equity and the mergers and acquisitions in the space. George: And I put out a quarterly, I cover every deal day in day out at HR winds.com. But I also put out the quarterly, a quarterly update report on everything that's happened and an annual look back. And today we're going to talk about the quarterly report, but everything's at HRWins.com and we're breaking news today, soon to be released. HrLoses. I do own the URL thanks to Chad and Cheese. I thought I better own it so that the, you know, something responsible happens when you guys get ahold of it. Chad: Dude, I'm really hoping that we get a version of fuckedcompany that is just on the HR side. I'm hoping that's what we get. But today, today, this is what we're going to get kids so dangerous today that this is what we're going to get. It's, it's HR Wins Q3 2019 global HR tech investment update, AKA The Money Shot. George, where can they find this? So if our listeners aren't driving but they are listening and they can go to their mobile or they can go to their desktop, how can they follow along? George: A real simple, just go to HR wins.com. Scroll down to the feet. You'll see featured reports and it is the big featured report right now, a big purple picture of like a report cover with the title on it. You can't miss it. Chad: Big purple monster looking money shot. Okay. George: You're not going to get me to say it. I'm not going to say, I'm just not going to say you can say it all you want. I'm not going to say it. Chad: Oh, everybody's going to take it. Everybody has to take a shot when I say money shot. Okay. So let's go ahead and dive into this. So we have close to a billion dollars that was actually spent in Q3. Tell us, tell us a little bit about this and what we're seeing on the trend lines. Joel: Yeah. What's the executive summary of this thing for everyone? George: The executive summary is, I mean, it was another, you know, big quarter. I've tracked details for the last three years and this is the, a, this is quarter number five, right as fifth largest. It's an incredible amount of VC coming into the space. The talent acquisition. And HCM categories are the big categories as usual. And you know, the, the subcategories talent in talent acquisition, job boards and assessments scored big this quarter job boards is every quarter and month. You know, across all categories. The leader this quarter assessments, you know, edged it out. So that's a, that's the high, the high level. There's, you know, we can go deeper into analysis if you want. Joel: Oh, we're going to go deep with The Money Shot George, don't you worry. Chad: Top of the report, a bit close to a billion dollars, $964.3 million spent. So how does that compare? Is that looking good? How are we trending? George: Yeah, well, when you look at the, you look at the chart it, you know, the, your first reaction it, it's, well, it's the fifth largest in the last three years. It's a drop from the last couple of quarters. But the thing to remember about the last two quarters is we had something like eight mega rounds, right? Deals worth over 100 million and half of those were worth over 300 million. So we didn't have any mega rounds in this, in in Q3. So that's that, that's the impact right now, Chad: Q3, are we taking a breath? Is that what's happening? George: I don't know if you can say $1 billion is taking a breath. It's, it's, it's a lot lower than two, three last year though. Okay. Yeah. I, but we did have mega rounds last year. We had, we consistently have some really large routes now in Q4 already started and we've already had a Mega round in Q4. We had a $300 million round go to rig up. So maybe but I, I really don't think quarterly. I, I do this quarterly because everybody wants a quarterly. And I think over time it's good to see the trend, but I don't think quarterly is the way to look at VC and private equity coming into the space to take, to take the to take the temperature. Right. I, I don't think that's the way to look at it Joel: Or this year is not a Canary in the coal mine, if you will. And if you were in their prediction game, you wouldn't sort of name this the death knell of the investment money coming in. You expect to see greater numbers going forward. George: We had a, a high, a good deal volume D D the number of deals didn't go down. The average deal size when you take out the, the outliers and comparatively the last quarters is, you know, right on track. I, I, I'm not a financial analyst, so you know, something happens in the economy. And that's going to cause all investors to tap their brakes, get more conservative. But what I do see, I, you know, I got I got I see a lot of new funds being created, not, not just for HR tech, but across the board. The, the venture capitalists are raising a lot of money. They're, they've, they're bringing a lot of money into their funds that they need to find homes for. And I'd have had a call in you know, in the last 48 hours of someone creating a new fund for just for HR tech. George: So, you know, as we sit today with the economy not, nothing seems to be slowing down. You know, that's, that's my, that's my take now. I, but I, I again, if anything happened, of course, if anything happens in the economy, things will, will slow. And I, I don't know if this is the new normal or if this 2000, 18, 2019 level of investment was like our peak. Yeah, it's, it's, it, it really is. I, I, yeah, you look at the number of of startups. You look at the number ILA cow you know, anybody can, you know, really at low cost, create an app. And we see a lot of apps coming into the market. So you know, all of these things, you know, play into this, there's going to be no shortage of folks starting up companies. And when the economy does go soft, that's sort of the best time to start. If you, if you have the capacity to do it, if you have the resources to do it. So, Joel: So you mentioned, you mentioned mobile. Can you look at sort of other trends that may have sparked this? Like I know for me you know, Microsoft dropping 26 billion for LinkedIn kinda started this, this gold rush, but what's your take George: Yeah, that those sizeable investments have a lot to do with it. I think a lot of investors see Workday and I'm not talking about the, the product that they're providing to the market, but looking at look, they look at Workday and they see how it's trading. They see it's multiples, they see and it's a big shiny object and it's in the HR technology category. I think that's another thing that that draws a lot of investors, you know, in, into the space. Chad: Do you think they liken it to Salesforce and Salesforce is obviously exploded? I mean, it's almost like it's a different segment, different industry. And this could prospectively be the sales force of the HR tech industry. George: I think there's something to that. I think it's they liken it to a lot of things. Most investors don't know much of anything about this space. Chad: Neither do most of the startups that get in this space. George: Yeah. So you hear just like from the startups, I, you still here, I'm still hearing like, you know, we're, we're going to be the Match.com of recruiting. We're going to be the Uber of recruiting. We're going to be this. Yeah. Yeah. The Tinder of recruiting. We're going to be all of this stuff and have HR and have employee engagement, whatever the category is. And you hear it from the investors to you here. And I, I think there has been a trend with vendors and marketplaces sort of emulating Salesforce. I think the, the challenge with the Workday is a different kind of topic, but the challenge with the legacy vendors in Workday is now a legacy vendor. They've been around a long time. They've got really limited, they don't have workplaces like Salesforce. Salesforce is, is just open, right? George: They don't care, you can replace any of their features with your own apps coming through their marketplace. You can't show me an HR vendor like that. Some of the newer vendors that came up after 2010, 2015 ha, culturally they're more aligned with that. But, but most of the, you know, do, none of the HR platforms are are open like that. They should be. But, but they're not. So I think that that confounds the vendors and the investors over time because to this, to this point, buyers don't act like people that buy or, or, or companies that buy Salesforce or marketing platforms or other financial systems or things like that. Joel: You, you mentioned Uber and I'm curious because we've, we've had a lot of, I guess, work platforms or, or companies in our space go public this past year and frankly be pretty challenged. You know, Upwork, Lyft, Uber, Fiverr. I'd even maybe throw Slack in there. As someone in the public market that has been challenged, do you think that will affect the, the amount of money coming into this space negatively? Or will it not matter? George: You know, if you look at you look at some of these mega rounds you know rig up this quarter Q for 300 million I think it brought their total to 450 million. You know, the, the pressure on the back side of that level of investment. You know, that's, you look, you look at a lot of those vendors that you mentioned, they raised huge amounts of capital and then you know, the, the results that are expected as a startup, but then as they look to go public, you know, what their market cap needs to be. It's, it's kinda hard for me to see where we aren't going to have, you know, the only examples we had are like, you know, we've had linked LinkedIn go to Microsoft. That was acquisition, right? We, we don't have a lot of, we don't have a lot of experience with massive investment, you know, sort of going public. And we do have, we've had unicorns like Zenefits imploded. They're, they're still like, they're chugging along out there, but there are different Zenefits now. So I, I just, I, I expect have we'll have some, some brands to put on HR loses.com. I think we'll have some, some brands to put over there at some point. Yeah. Chad: So a 2019 surpassed 2018 yep. In three quarters. Right. Versus, so we still have a quarter to go. I mean, we're, we're in the, in the gravy set right now as we, as we take a look at the investment map. Obviously, the money is still, it's in the US. 29 deals in the U S and then there's just sporadic onesy, twosy is all over the rest of the world. Right. George: Yeah. It's, it's good to see deals coming in from other places. You know, France has a, a healthy ecosystem. The UK is always sort of number two Canada can pop up onto the list with a few deals, but we're, we're talking about, you know, the most I've seen from any other country in any quarter of the last three years has been like seven deals. And that's been like, Whoa. You know, usually it's two or three from one, and that was France. And that was France. Yeah, the, yeah, sometime last year. And then when I, when I look at the U S now I don't, I don't report on the cities but it's, it's, you know, Silicon Valley gets the lion's share of the VC investment. But the good news is, you know, I'm seeing I, you know, there has been, I don't want to, it's not like some an Exodus. But they're, you know, many cities have built you know, an ecosystem for startups and technology to attract more talent to attract investment businesses. And that's starting to be reflected, but it's a sort of like, you know, it's, it's analogous to comparing the U S to other countries. You know, Silicon Valley sees the bulk of it. That's where the bigger, you know, sort of top rate VCR where you see the big mega rounds coming out of. But you know, it's, it is starting to expand within the US a little bit. Joel: Let's talk about chatbots for a second. And I, I want to say going back to like 2017 was when I think Maya got their first big round and then you had sort of a, you know, a cavalcade of, of players come into the space that got money. What's sort of your take on what's gonna happen with them in the next couple months or years? Are we going to see them, you know, consolidate and at how much? I think we're looking at AllyO at, you know, above the $50 million mark. I'm sure you can correct me if I'm wrong on that, but we're seeing some big dollars there. And also, what other spaces do you see becoming hot or heating up in the next, you know, 12, 18 months? Chatbots? George: There's no you won't get any disagreement from me that conversational interfaces, chat bots, messaging, all of that automation surrounding it, machine learning, behind it, making the system smarter. That's, you know, that's the future. There's a run on chatbots, right? It's and, and it's not just the startups. So the thing that we're starting, you know, all of the larger vendors that were a little more hesitant or they started looking at these interfaces. Not really, not rushing to market with a product, but exploring AI, seeing, you know, where does it make sense for our customers, but now they've been coming out with these products. I think you're going to see some acquisitions. That's a, it's a place where you're going to see some of these vendors who might have raised some cash, got some traction, share some customers with, with some platforms get acquired. George: You're going to see if, if you're going to see a lot of these vendors have to branch out. Because there are, there's just there, there are, there are a lot of vendors across every category right there. There are too many recruiting chatbots, there are too many benefits advisor chat bots, there are too many internal HR help desk chatbots. So they're going to have to branch out and start to do more and start to look like some of the platforms that they've tried to avoid or they're, they're, you know, they're just going to turn into, you know, zombie vendors out there that, you know, they make enough recurring revenue to keep the lights on and show up at a trade show here or there. But and maybe run a lifestyle business, but they're not going to take over market share bold statements. Chad: Yeah. Let's dig into some of these categories real quick. So to me, it looked like talent acquisition, and correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like talent acquisition in this quarter took more of the pie than it normally does because HCM usually dominates the dollars side of the house is that the case? Is talent acquisition, talent acquisition tech actually on the rise from an investment standpoint? George: So over the last three years, we've had 9.2 6 billion across all HR tech, 3.9 to HCM and 3.4 to talent acquisition. Okay. So I would say like, I, I w I didn't have that reaction to this chart. It's always to me there, it's always w which one's going to be edge out, the other one, talent acquisition or HCM. The thing about HCM is they consistently, that that category consistently has a small, you know, larger, average deal size bigger deal amounts because you were looking at, you know, payroll and benefits and you know, larger systems and systems that everybody needs. Right? So, yeah, there's a everybody needs payroll. Every, everybody needs in the U S everybody needs a benefits platform. Chad: Well, and it's the difference between getting money to something that is a feature that could go on and get acquired and an actual system, like you're talking about a payroll system. George: Yeah, you're right. You're right. And, and investors, I think yeah, that's why job boards and talent acquisition do well. Another reason is because w w an investor sees a marketplace and they see a need that regard regardless of the economy. People are looking for jobs. Either they're looking at their other, either more people or fewer people looking for jobs. There's, there are always people hiring more. You know, there's a two sided market investors love that you can go in and really specialize and go after that. That, you know, that segment of the market investors can really get their head around that business. Whether they understand the nuances of it or not. Totally different conversation. Human capital management, you know, payroll, everybody needs payroll. Everybody needs to be compliant. Everybody needs to pay their people on time. And they, they need to, they need to do it in more modern ways where funds are more accessible. I can get my head around that pretty, pretty easily. Talent management, we get into like, you know, learning and employee engagement. Those are those by definition that that's sort of where you need to have a deeper understanding of what's happening in leadership and development and management and so forth. Yeah. And so investors that, that's a, that's a scarier ground for most VC investors because it's not a a transactional marketplace or a, I, it's harder for me to see every company needing your learning management system. Joel: All right, George, I'm a, I'm a young entrepreneur and I want to get into this space and I want to raise a lot of money. What recommendation would you give me on what kind of company to start to really make the bank? Don't do it. Chad: Pretty fucking simple. Don't do it. This is not the space for you. Get the fuck out of here. Joel: No, it's seriously, isn't it? Is it, is it automation? Is it AI? And what kind of AI? And I mean, the crypto, right? Is getting money. Like what? Blockchain? Chad: On my God!, Joel: Bad recommended or what is it? Just start a job board. Chad: God, he's reaching. George: So, all right, here's what I think. And I, I'm not I'm not, again, I'm not a financial analyst and I'm not giving anybody any advice on what kind of company to, to start necessarily. But I, I see you know, blockchain is still early, although I know at Workday rising this week they reportedly demoed some pretty cool stuff about, you know, skills who've been Tory and you know, PO PO Joel: ...And recruit holdings just bought a block chain company. Right? George: That's true. That's true. So I think it's still early on blockchain and I think it's really hard for buyers to get their head around a block chain until it becomes a requirement from, from it. Right? It's like, it's sort of like GDPR or data security. You know, they're trying to solve business problems that are out in the town, in the recruiting pipeline or in the, in internal mobility or their, their level of engagement inside. They're inside their company and starting to deal with like changing my complete infrastructure and you know, how data gets to, gets to move through the organization and outside of the organization. I once it says we're going blockchain, that's, that's when, that's when we're going to have a run on blockchain. Now it's like the move to the cloud. I think you're right. And so here's the deal. George: We've seen a lot of vendors like look at all this programmatic activity. I remember in you know, I'd say about, you know, seven years ago, there were some vendors that came out with retargeting and, and they were talking the programmatic talk. They flamed out. Yeah, I can't remember the names, but they flamed out. And now you've got you know, the market's moved to where, you know, app cast and the others they got, their timing was, was better. Their timing was more right than, than wrong. So, so I think blockchain's a scary one for me. If I'm an entrepreneur in this space unless I've got a real patient investor or I'm willing to sort of go, go as a on a, on a bootstrap or you know, sort of go with the market, you know, stay with it early at a lower earlier stage until I start to see more adoption. George: So that, that's a scary one to me. Chad: Job boards are getting a shit ton of money, right? George: They are, they're getting a ton of money and I think there's some, they're not dead. And I, I think there's, there's an, I don't think they're ever going to be dead. And I think you're going to see so here is some interesting that one of the big things I love in the job board space is so we talk about the skills gap in the skills shortage and all this stuff. Now you've got these job boards, they're coming out and they're blending education and job boards. So there was one in Q3 called paths stream, they raised $12 million. They are, they work with traditional universities and they create branded learning content. So like Salesforce creates a CRM essential certificate. Tablo has like data analytics certificates that you get through. George: I dunno if it's universities, I don't know if they get down to the community college level, but what are they doing? They're creating a pipeline of talent for themselves. Right? And they're creating a marketplace where as a student, I'm coming in to understand what's available at, at these shops. There's another there are others which companies should be doing with their own data and their own applicant tracking system. Yeah, I agree. Now there's another one. Next step. It's a healthcare. They don't work with they don't work with universities, but they create a health care learning and education for individuals that are displaced in the workplace and want to move into the healthcare sector. Now that, that's a, to me that's like, that's, that's the kind of thing you expect to hear politicians talk about. Right? This is like job retraining except businesses are doing it and so it will probably be more successful. George: And it's and that's something where now then you start to think about what's in their tech stack. Now did they bring AI and do they bring machine learning in to make their systems more effective and more valuable for the, for the students and for the candidates. And you know, the consumers that are going through the process and for the employers, there have been some others too. There's you know, last year there was a big round to a university in San Francisco that is funded by Apple Microsoft, Salesforce and all they do is train people for a skills that those companies you know, and they've impacted the curriculum, let's put it that way. So it's, and it's, and it's, there's an online marketplace for this stuff as well. So it's, it's pretty cool to see the talent acquisition and learning training side of things coming together. George: And that's, if I were starting a job board, I'd be looking at, let's look at rig up $300 million. Why specialization? I'm, I'm drawing a blank on the guys in Boston who do no collar, blue collar Jobcase job kids, right? Underserved market, underserved, underserved, right. They now, but, but so LinkedIn is for you know, S, you know, we'll call it skilled re PR candidates, job case. Well the electricians have mobile phones, they have iPhones, they have hand. Troy's you know, folks that are, that you would think blue collar. They’re out on the road. They're not in front of laptops every day. So the market has caught up with that segment of candidates. So there are a lot of places where job boards are really leading this specialization trend for all of HR tech. And that, that's where you're going to see all of HR tech go ultimately is you know, they're going to be, you're going to have the apps that are better or the, and the platforms that are better serving healthcare or industrial or tech or whatever. So is your answer to the young entrepreneur a specialized job board? I think that's, that's one, that's one of the answers. There's another area that I think is around analytics for workforce planning. I'm hearing a lot, a lot of a lot of employers are looking for help aligning their company's goals for the next, you know, two years, five years. SFX: <> George: Yeah. Okay. But, but with aligning that with their internal talent and the external talent that's available and the platforms generally don't do that well. And I'm getting, I'm hearing a lot of that. I'm hearing a big need for that. And so that's something that's, that's, that's interesting to me. Joel: Fantastic. George, as always, we appreciate your time and your sense of humor and your humility. If you were sending someone to learn more about you that's listening right now, where would you send them? George: Go to HRwins.com and you find everything you need to know or links to it from there. Chad: Excellent man. Chad & Joel: We out! Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google play or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund for more visit ChadCheese.com. #Acquisition #Merger #funding #capital #venture #privateequity #GeorgeLarocque

Chad and Cheese are handing out tricks and treats this Halloween. - VONQ wants more candy! - Engage Talent breathes a sigh of relief... - Joel says "Careerbuilder ad sucks" - Chad says "LinkedIn ads knock it out of the park" - Chipotle deserves the park - Amazon orders more garbage cans and... Tim Sackett should allow Halloween in the office! All of these treats handed out by Sovren, JobAdX, and Canvas. Enjoy! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Hung Lee: It's Hung from recruiting prey food and you all listening to the chat and she show this, in my opinion, is the number one podcast in our industry. You just have to subscribe and listens to these guys. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where hurts complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Awwwwweee yeah, Chad: What the fuck was that? Joel: What's up ghouls and goblins? You cannot leave dude. Listeners cannot leave. It's the Halloween edition of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Trick or treat Joel: Be afraid, be very afraid I'm your cohost Joel. "Here's Johnny " Cheesman Chad: And I'm Chad "I love candy corn" Sowash, Joel: This week's episode, CareerBuilder and LinkedIn. Drop new commercials, tricks and treats a bound in the acquisition game and we break down the office party rules for Halloween. Grab your bag of rocks. Charlie Brown. We're smashing some great pumpkin's this week, right after this word from canvas. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage screen and coordinate logistics via text. And so much more. We keep the human that's you at the center. While canvas bot is at your side. Adding automation to your workflow canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji we make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's go canvas.io get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: Oh yeah. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween. Are you a trick or treating this year? Are you a Chad: No, I'm not too old for that. I mean, we sit me in the neighbors. We have like a three or four different houses. We sit in one of our driveways. And we'll probably have prior to have the fire going this year. We'll have bourbon out and we'll have plenty of plenty of candy for the kids. So, yeah, it should be a blast. Joel: Pumpkin spice. Goodness. I will say that one of our most more memorable Halloweens was when we went to Columbus to partake in Columbus's Halloween. Now what we do remember is there one of your neighbors actually created a, basically, I dunno, a haunted house and the garage and the kids walk in, some dude with a chainsaw and like it was, it was horrors, horrors galore. So yeah, if you're in the Columbus, Indiana area go check out that homemade haunted house. I of course with a two year old, a 10 year old and a 13 year old, we'll be hitting Halloween head on. I'm going as a prisoner this year. Prisoner. my wife is a funky chicken. Yeah, that's a little odd. Okay. Hey, it's Halloween. Jeremy, the two year old is going as a PJ mask character, which some parents will know out there. You probably don't know. He's, he's going to be cat boy. Stella. My 10 year old daughter's going to be 11 from stranger things. The popular Netflix show. And Cole is going as an executioner. So he's in a black robe and acts, some wild mask. All black. Yeah. That's my 13 year old son. Chad: After last week being in Paris, I mean they did two, two entirely different weeks being in Paris, just Julie and I all last week and go figure going to the the catacombs where they actually talked about executions and things like that and seeing walls of bones and then thinking about Cole actually dressing up as an execution or that's yeah, that's, that's surreal Joel: At best. Yeah. It's been a scary week to say the least. Catacombs is a fucked up place. Yeah. And only the French would S would think to say like, let's make this into art. Chad: Yeah. I think it's, it's definitely a different way to, to, to quote unquote barrier people cause they are underground. You do feel, or at least I did and I know Julie did. We felt like this, just this, this reverence when you go down there, much like when you go to a, like the, the big cemetery, can't remember the name in Paris, which we actually visited where Jim Morrison is buried and whatnot. I mean, when you step on those grounds, you feel that reverence. And when we went down to the catacombs, yeah, it was scary as fuck. Cause there were 6 million ish people that are actually stacked up on top of each other bones. Yeah. But there was that, that, that reverence and I can't believe that people actually go down there and, and take bones or at least they try to, I mean it's just, it's fucking crazy. Joel: Yeah. A lot of old timey, scary shit in France. Yes. Along with all via the glorified art and you know, creative stuff that's there. Yeah. Yeah. Jim Morrison, his grave was interesting. If you've seen the movie the doors, there's a scene at the end where they show Morrison's grave. And he, his, he has like a, a bust with his head on it and it just, it just says Jim Morrison 1948 to 1971 or whatever it is that's there anymore. The grave now is like James Douglas Morrison. It's like a more official, it's gated off. So I was kind of expecting to see the doors movie version but did not get that Chopin is buried there, which is kinda cool. And Oscar Wilde is buried there as well. I don't know if you saw those graves. Yeah. Behind glass. Oscar Wilde was weird, right? Yeah. Yeah. If anyone knows what's up with that grave, let us know. We have some Irish listeners, maybe they know what, what the deal is with that grave. That's, that's a weird sort of hood ornament on a car looking grave. Chad: Thanks again to Unleash and SmashFly. We had a great time at Unleash was a really cool frickin event. If you haven't listened to our Unleash podcasts, go back, listen to both of them. They're a blast. One was a panel, talked about pretty much employer brand cult, brand experience, that kind of stuff. And then the other one, Joel and I were we pretty much took over the Mya booth just because it was nice and quiet over there and they had nice, comfortable seats. So we just took over the Mya booth. Joel: Yeah. And getting flipped off by, no numerous CEOs was fun too. There in the Mya booth. Yeah. Unleash was, Unleash was great. We're excited to you know, to sort of be a part of that show to, you know, a few, if you have a conference take note. They do, they do a really good job of combining the vendors and the attendees and a really cool way. Chad: Yeah. They do. And talking about shows, Bill Boorman, you might know this guy, he is having his 10th anniversary for true and a, so a big, big shout out to bill. Congrats buddy. 10 years. Chad: He's one of our favorite Hobbits, you know. Joel: Dude loves him some. Bob Geldof by the way, he he had a major conference boner when Bob Geldof spoke. That's the the live aid guy in case our young audience audience members don't know who Bob Geldof is. Yeah, Chad: He's done a few things but live aid definitely. So big. A happy anniversary. Bill a hope to see at a, in a show soon. Man, I'm next in the shout out list. Adam Gordon at Candidate ID for launching a free CRM. Chad: ...And It was funny, we saw him in Paris and the question was, so why, why a free CRM? And he said, it's pretty simple because that's what CRMs are worth. Joel: That's what he said? SFX: That just one big pile of shit. Chad: Yeah, he's, he said that's what CRMs are worth. That's why we're giving it away. Joel: I was going to say, I typically don't like the free model. I think it works in this case because it's free for a certain number of, you know, individuals in your database and then you gotta pay for it. So it's a, it's a nice little gateway drug for small companies or who just want to kick the tires. But I didn't, I didn't realize he said CRMs or work Jack. So that was a, that's an interesting take. From him. I'm going to give a shout out to welcome to the jungle who just got 22 point $3 million, but I want to, I want this company. Yeah. I want to, I want to point out that it's a French company and no French company should be able to name their company after one of the greatest rock songs in American history. I just think that's wrong. And these guys should, should be deep six just for thinking that they could do that. Chad: Well in naming a company and or a product a phrase is one of the dumbest fucking things. Especially, I mean, it just, that's stupid, Joel: Yeah. Why don't you just launch some company's name like born to run and Jack and Diane and a American girl or something like what the fuck? Chad: Born in the USA. How about that? How about you do that Joel: Launching in Germany this week? Born in the USA recruitment solutions. Yeah. Chad: Ah, big shout out to Megan Irwin over at SAIC, she's over in the employment marketing side of the house. Hey Megan. You get a chance, say hi to Amy for us over there. Really appreciate both of you guys listening. Joel: Big fan Joe. And I'm going to butcher every name that I say on the show today. Joe Zen. I do you know how to pronounce this name? Josie. This is worse than Maura or whatever his name was a couple of weeks ago. Like, so Joe Zeinieh and I, I'll go with that from TMP. You, you had probably one of the best lines of the year at unleash when you called TMP Sibyl and that they should change their name to sell blood because they can't figure out all the brands that they have on board. Joe at TMP said, you guys got some good points. That's all. And that was it. So Joe, shout out to you for the, the short succinct message. And we love that you're listening over there, TMP. Chad: And it was funny, not just Joe, but I received WhatsApp texts, Facebook messages for a bunch of TMP, AIA, TMP ER's. Let's just call them TMP as a whole, a saying. Pretty much the same thing. Laugh out loud. That was fucking hilarious. So we really appreciate, again, when we give company shit when they either give it back to us or you know, they just, again, they join along in the hilarity because that's some fucking funny shit. Joel: And a shout out to Fountain, another gig economy platform, marketplace put in whatever words you want in there. A raised 23 million this week of a series B. So another win for the the gig economy. Congrats to them. Chad: Big shout out to Talkpush and Francis Chan. So if you don't know Francis Chan, he was actually like employee number 11 over at Successfactors and TalkPush just landed him as the VP of product. I think it's pretty big. And when you see these companies making these types of hires, I mean that, that means something. So it was really cool to see something like that happen. Joel: Yeah. Push it real good. Shout out to Facebook, although they've been in the negative news of late posted a job. This was shared by our buddy Matt Charney. They're hiring a product manager for recruiting products. So yeah, we talk about Facebook quite a bit of, of being serious. They keep doing stuff. This is definitely another move into the gee I don't know, the recruiting tech space, so expect some interesting things from them. Them heading into 2020 Facebook. Chad: Yeah. I still don't expect exciting things happening from them because they're going to hire somebody with no background in this space is going to put together shit products. Fairly simple. Joel: Now what if they hire me? Are you still going to say that? Chad: Probably. Joel: Yikes. Yikes. Chad: Ready for events? Joel: Yeah. Let's go to events. Chad: Just off the backs of Paris. We're getting ready, getting a locked and loaded. You're going to recruit con in, in Nashville. I think you're going to, you're going to play this startup performance for my wife. So Julie's going to be on Joel's like this. The warmup act. I'm the warm up that Joel: For Julie. Sowash that's just my lot in life. Chad: And then we're going to ICIMs Influence where they have a new format. Last year we went and it was just the analysts and we just kinda sat in an area and talked about the industry and listened to what Collin and all the other leaders had to say about ICIMS. But this year they're going to have partners and clients and it's going to be a one big room full of people I guess. So we're going to have to see how this works. Joel: Nice. That'll be an interesting take on the analysts meetings. That's a real risk for them because analysts are sort of stupid sometimes, but we'll see. We'll see what happens there. So Recruitcon, that's going to be in a couple of weeks. I'll be there with Julie. My presentation is only 15 minutes, which is interesting. She's probably an hour, which gives me a lot of a lot of grief. And then talent that in December. This looks like the final show that we'll, we'll be doing the naughty or nice show from Dallas that week. Chad: Ah, yeah. Naughty or nice. I am stoked this year about naughty or nice. So if you're not going to talent net in, you're in or around the Dallas area, the fuck are you waiting for? Check it out online. Go get registered and come on out. Should be a blast. Let's get to the news shall we? Joel: Yes. Acquisitions. We got one, one trick and one tree on this. Chad: Yes. We're going to go, I'm going to go with the, with the treat first. And that's VONQ. Who is a Euro programmatic player? Yeah. V O N Q. VONQ. A capital D acquires 54% stake in the disruptive recruitment marketing technology business known as VONQ. Joel: VONQ. Would you, would you rather be a sales person saying, hi, this is Chad from welcome to the jungle or hi, this is Chad from VONQ? Chad: Yea, I think VONQ is easier. I think you can make that much easier. This is, this is another programmatic play. I mean, we've seen so much programmatic work happening out there. So many acquisitions. Joel: Yeah. Netherlands, Germany, English and other European play. I mean, aside from the programmatic side, I mean they're into a lot of different things. Employment, branding, analytics, almost sort of a new style agency right out there. So yeah, not knowing a ton about them. You know, I'd say this is a definitely move that's trending in our industry. Programmatic remains hot and will remain hot apparently through 2020 so yeah, it's not too late to, to, you know, create that start up kids programmatic solutions are hot. Chad: Yeah. I, I think this is what the new ad agency looks like. The, the programmatic scene is changing quickly and all around programmatic. You have branding, you have all these different aspects that talent acquisition just can't fuck with. I mean, they just don't have time to mess with. Right. they might have employer brand people or what have you on site, but they just, there's too much to do. So they need to have an agency to be able to work with an agency, not to mention from a technology standpoint, this is the big change app cast became the major tech player. And then we have the four different acquisitions in the, like what was a six to eight week span that turned the entire agency world on its head for pretty much at cast powered the entire infrastructure for agencies. Right. And that is being shattered. Joel: Switzerland. Chad: Yeah, that's being shattered right now. TMP and Perengo right. You've got 'em symphony had their own thing that the M cloud thing for awhile and then you have ClickIQ going to indeed. I mean you have all these different plays happening. Recruitics says hold my beer and buys KRT. Right. And that's, that's a flip on it. So now we had this one playing field that was pretty much for the most part, powered by Appcast and that is just being rustled to fucking death and watching an organization like VONQ who I believe does have some technology, but I guarantee you behind the scenes they are leaning heavily on a partner vendor tech. So that capital that they're, that they're seeing that that they're getting now is definitely going to help accelerate growth. But I also believe it's going to help them develop themselves out of needing these partners or these other vendors. Joel: Yeah, very interesting. As we head into the new year to see what happens to the, the Joveo's of the world, the Pandologic's, the JobadX is because they're in the catbird seat and they have to be fielding offers as we speak, I assume. Chad: Yeah. And then to the, to the actual acquisition Engage Talent acquired by Workforce Logiq. And that's Logic spelled L O G I Q... Yeah. Formally known as ZeroChaos. So in January of 2019 they switched their name from ZeroChaos, which are two words you should be able to spell. Joel: Yup. Chad: To Workforce Logics or Logiq or whatever the fuck it is with the Q. Joel: You like this as a trick. Chad: Yeah. I like this as a trick and here's why. And, and sorry, Engage Talent guys. What we've seen is Engage Talent is really, I think, wrapped in kind of like this, this marketing spiel of "predictive" and whatnot, and to try to make it feel different than that of an Entell or an Uncommon or some of these, some of these companies who have had issues and really haven't been able to get the play or the revenue that personally I think they should be getting because this is, I believe, the most important technology that we have out there today. Joel: They Engage Talent? Chad: I think this type of technology, it's more matching. It's more of that AI kind of like sourcing predictive model that that's, I love this type of technology, but it's just not getting the play. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Would you put like an Engage Talent and like a Glint on the same, on the same plane or different? Chad: No, I'd say it's different. Glint. Glint entirely, yeah, I think that's, that's one of the, that kind of like tricks that Engage Talent is kind of like wrapped themselves and more of a predictive packaging. I think this is a big win for Engage Talent. Don't get me wrong, but it's a big win because they had to take an out quickly because most of these companies just, they're just not doing well. Joel: Yeah, I agree. For whatever reason, they might be ahead of their time and we've certainly seen that in this industry. Chad: Yeah. I love the tech for some reason it's just not getting the traction. I believe it should. Joel: Let's talk about a scary ad from career builder that's hit the the airwaves and then talk about a much better ad that LinkedIn has put out. Chad: We've seen Careerbuilder ads over the last couple of years and they really haven't been great at all. Joel: So the, the Careerbuilder ad is basically one stock image, like one stock video after another. Like basically either someone internally at Careerbuilder or some agency like searched whatever solution gives you videos, stock videos for work. So you've got like the worker in the hospital, you've got the worker by the truck, you've got the worker among like schoolchildren, you have the worker with you know, in the business sort of setting in the office. They don't speak at all. It was just a narrator with all these sort of stock images. And then at the end there's like a general I dunno, it looks like they're having a cookout or something and then it says, ah, shoot, what's the....? Chad: Work can Work. Joel: Uh work can work. Yeah, work can pay more working. Don't do all this stuff. I dunno. Good on them for like creating an ad. But it's literally like a kid in college could have made this ad. I could've made this ad. Chad: Do you think it's a trick? Joel: Oh, it's a trick from a, I mean, there's nothing unique there. There's nothing that is going to make people go, Oh that ad is funny or oh that ad is touching or Oh that ad really, you know, connects with me. It's just like stock images on a, on a website, right? Like it's just people that don't connect whatsoever. It works on a website sometimes it doesn't really work that well on a video, commercial advertisement. So do they actually have money to run this thing? Cause they sure as hell didn't spend any money producing it. So yeah. W it's just sort of an, it's sort of like, like what's marketing going to do this quarter? Oh we're going to make an ad. Okay, your budget is $200 to go make an ad. And that's what they did. Chad: See, I got something entirely different because what I was used to from Careerbuilder was it was really sterile. Right. And this to me I'm amazed you didn't see like the kid running up to the dad and the, there was more, there was more of this kind of like your work doesn't have to be just work. Work can be closer to home. It can pay more, you know, it can make us proud. Right. So there was more of this, more of this aspirational kind of a feel behind it. And then it was the, you know, CareerBuilder work can work and, and they used to work can work with those other sterile ones before. But I thought this really brought it together better. Was it an amazing ad. Was it a five out of five stars? No. Was it better than anything that I've seen from them in the last five years? Yeah, easily. Whether you didn't like the, the quote unquote stock footage or not, I thought the actual actual message, the aspirational message around work doesn't have to be just work was a, it was, it was pretty cool and it was better than anything they've done in a while. SFX: That is one big pile of shit. Joel: I can't believe you liked this ad. I'm just shocked. It's awful. Chad: Alright. I'd like to talk about is the new LinkedIn ad because this takes that aspirational idea and takes it to another level without all the stock. Right? So what are you searching for? That's really the message behind LinkedIn and this new ad that they've launched in the UK. And a, I think they took the, the, the aspirational ad that Careerbuilder was, was trying to get to and they actually, you can hear it from the actual people themselves that they're currently helping and people that they want to help. And this was a very diverse group of, of individuals as well. Joel: Yeah. First of all, I want to go back to CareerBuilder. I want to hear from our listeners, like hit us up on Twitter, #chadcheese delight, the CareerBuilder ad. Do you not like it? I'm just amazed. Chad likes the ad and I just want to know if I'm just way off here. I'm just a cold hearted son of a bitch. Chad: Oh, we know that. Joel: So hit us up on social about the CareerBuilder ad now on LinkedIn. I did like it. It wasn't, it was what you would expect from LinkedIn, right? It was produced really well. You know, I, I like that they were actual users of the product and at the end they said, you know, I'm Joe, whatever. And I got my job on LinkedIn and it says what their position was. And they have a nice little variety of positions. Joel: It was very UK focused, right? So, yeah, like they're playing soccer. Slash. Football, there's a diversity spin. So they have different obviously diverse audiences in the ad. I think most people don't think of LinkedIn as a job search site. And I think LinkedIn is trying to change that perception. I think they'd been a good job in the States and now they're obviously turning their eye toward Europe and other parts of the world. So yeah, I thought it was, it was a good as effective. It's not, you know, it's not monster super bowl 1999 kind of stuff, but it is an ad that should resonate with people who are looking for work and never thought of LinkedIn. Is there anything more than just a professional networking? So, yeah. Chad: Well, I think in a world today that is so divided, they're building on this in it together feeling. And it's really cool to have a company like LinkedIn ask bigger questions, then do you need a job? And more focused on what would you like to do with your life? And, and again, this was another ad that I felt was not centered around work a was centered on life. Right. And then how, what do we want to do with our life and work as part of that, but it's not the central part of it. So I, I really liked it was I thought it was pretty cool. Joel: Yeah, it's a little bit of a change from a lot of the indeed ads which are really focused on work. So it is a, it is a nice little warm and fuzzy take on the the job search side. So the ads are definitely supportive. I don't know. So there's report this, this past week from aim group on LinkedIn revenues and sessions grow by double digits. Yeah. Things are, continues to do well at LinkedIn. I continued to drink the Koolaid, a revenue surge 25% year on year in the last quarter. This is from the earnings report from Microsoft. This continues the multi quarter run of double-digit year on your income growth for LinkedIn sessions grew by 22% year on year a reaching record levels. This is such and the Dalla I said, quote marketing solutions, this sale of ads targeting LinkedIn users was the fastest growing part of LinkedIn's business with income increasing 44% year over year. It's good for them to see them as an ad solution. Twitter banning political ads. I don't know if we'll start seeing political ads on LinkedIn. Chad: You better fucking not Joel: All right. It's the Halloween show. We don't need any more horrific political political speak. That's a, that's a trick. Yeah. In fact, let's, let's hear from a sponsored job ad X and we'll talk about some treats out of Chipotle. JobAdX: Not for me. All these jobs look the same. Oh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just half heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it. We live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop-off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team, help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing. Joinus@jobadx.com that's joinus@jobadx.com attract, engage employees with JobAdX Joel: Free degrees at Chipotle. You love this story. Chad: Yeah, so Chipotle pays for college $20 million in tuition assistance over the over the past two years. Joel: Dude, if this isn't a recruiting and retention tool, I don't know what it is. Chad: Well, this is not just recruiting and retention, this is pipelining. This is knowing what your organization needs for the future. So instead of looking at it like, yeah, we, you know, we need to fill positions now. This is not about fucking filling positions now. It helps, don't get me wrong retention recruiting, but this is about the future and where to polo needs to go. Right. And this is one of the things that really pisses me off about major fortune 500 companies is that they're not thinking about talent pipelining and how to do exactly this. This is, this is too easy right now. It is way too much fucking money for are for a kid to go to college. $100,000 for God sakes. There's no reason for that. Get them in locked in for a three year contract. Who knows and and pay their fucking tuition. Joel: Yeah. And some companies get this. I mean we, we tend to see stuff like this at a Starbucks, Chipotle, a Walmart, you know, companies that are willing to sort of go to the mat in terms of education and paying for college. And, and degrees. It's a great strategy in terms of, you know, keeping people loyal educating folks, putting people into college that maybe wouldn't have even thought about going in the first place. So a big round of applause, you know, for me, for Chipotle companies that are willing to take this expense and again, it's a great, you know, you'd build some great loyalty and your workers if you're going to pay for them. Chad: Well, this isn't an expense. Okay, let's, let's go ahead and put this out there first. This is not an expense. This is exactly what a company should be doing. Joel: An investment. Chad: This is exactly what a company should be doing to ensure that their skilling, their people up. How many companies do we hear about today who are talking about skills gaps? This is ensuring that they can get product out, they can get product developed, they're waiting for somebody to walk through the doors with the actual skills that they need right now and they're losing product time. They're losing development time so that that's a problem. Joel: Yeah. And they're gaining new skills, by the way. Yeah. Love this. This definitely a treat on Halloween from Chipotle, and I have to mention, I don't know if you know this or not, but if you, if you go to Chipotle on Halloween and dress like a burrito, you get a free burrito. Not that I've ever done that, but I wouldn't be above doing that. But yeah, I'd love to hear from some listeners if they're going a wrapping themselves with selves up in aluminum foil to get a free burrito at Chipotle today. Oh, it's a thing, man. Go check out the socials. Chad: I will. And I believe it. I just don't believe that you haven't. Joel: Oh, well, you know, there's no proof out there. Let's put it that way. No visual proof that I've ever wrapped myself up in aluminum foil and gotten a free burrito. Not that is there anything wrong with free burritos? Less of a treat. Is this new story out of Amazon where automation just as sort of lurking in the shadows ready to lay off a bunch of people? Chad: Yeah, I think it's interesting. I mean Amazon top 750,000 employees and nearly a hundred thousand in the past three months. Now. I mean, they're getting ready for the season, right? I mean it's, it's more pronounced this year because of the, the onset of prime one day. But but yeah, I mean they, they finished their third quarter with a head count of 750,000 people a year over year bump of 22%. The U S headcount is over 400,000. So this is a little scary. It's very scary because when somebody, something grows this large, everybody looks at and they're like, yay. But we know Jeff Bezos and all, he gives a shit about his dollars. Okay. He doesn't give a shit about the people. He just cares about the dollars, which means, you know, automation is going to come and when they start retrofitting these warehouses or what, whatever thought automation, that number is going to drop dramatically. Chad: And, and again, you know, robots taking the jobs, that kind of thing. That's, that's what we get ready for. Joel: If you think it will happen gradually and nicely and friendly, you're probably lying to yourself. Cause when the automation change comes, it's going to be fast and furious. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. But pull your nuclear you know, button kind of shit. Until then, I hope they've also pur purchased more garbage cans for their employees to piss in. Joel: Yeah. By the way, I, yeah, I love you said because I have a message for all the Amazon workers who want to take a bathroom break. SFX: You cannot leave... Joel: Oh shit. Let's hear from Sovren and then we'll talk about company Halloween party rules. Do it. Sovren: Sovren parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions. You can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. That's SOVREN.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human Sovren software. So human. You'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: No, it. Okay. So this next one is from our buddy Tim Sackett and I think it's fucking awesome. Hilarious. And definitely it's a trick because it's, it's, it's from, it's from Tim second. Other than the picture of him, his Trump is, is pretty much a treat as far as know. Pretty fricking hilarious. He's spot on. So we have the Tim Sackett office Halloween party rules. Now, first off, Tim says that his office does not participate in the dress up festivities. And, and I, that's just a big boo. I mean, come on Tim. What the fuck? Joel: That is a pretty big boo. And he does say in his roles, if, if, if more than 50 aren't gonna dress up, then just don't even have it. So maybe he just works with some lame motherfuckers. Chad: All goes back to leadership, right? Joel: Uh if he showed up looking like Trump, like that, probably not. Chad: Now he did that before Trump was actually president. That was funny. Then. Right now it's, it's, it's scary. So I guess before and after. Joel: That's probably a big no, that might, that might tip the scale at his number one keep racism out of, out of your your party. And I love this quote. No, really? We're going as the black KKK. Yeah, just don't do that. That's a, that's a great number one role and I love that he has eight rules because I guess 10 roles would've been just too much for him to come up with. Chad: Well, I think, I think that's perfect. 10 top 10 if you go top eight it's like, yeah, I can do eight top three that's fine too. But yeah, number one, racist theme costumes. I mean, we all think that we're, we're woke enough to understand what quote unquote racism is. Chad: Especially a couple of dumb white guys. Stay safe with your, with your costumes. Joel: Yeah. And I think you could add sexism to that. Although I don't think that made his list. I don't think guys can dress up as girls anymore in the office. Chad: I don't know why. I mean that should be more, that should be more heralded more than ever at this point. I mean, if that's how you feel comfortable there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to. I am behind that 100%. Joel: Alright, alright I'm clearly not woken up to dude connect with this list. Chad: Yeah. You're one of the most unwoke dudes anything with naughty in the title is number two. And I told him to get with, get that. Here's the thing, if somebody comes dressed as naughty nurse or something like that, more than likely during the rest of the year, he or she is, they're wearing things that are way too revealing already. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: This isn't, this isn't going to be a thing where it happens once. Okay. So I get the whole naughty thing, but still it's gonna happen more than that. Joel: Yeah. Which is rough because I mean Halloween is the one time of year where everyone can, you know, let their freaky fly, but not in the office place. So this is a good number two rule. Chad: Yeah, number three, don't be the guy offering tricks all day. That's that. I don't even know what that means. That's just creepy. You know, because Tim was that guy and he was told this. Now that's just creepy. Stop that. Joel: Now I know you can't turn tricks but offering tricks. I'm not, I'm not exactly sure. We might need some clarification on that one. Chad: Number four, anything that interferes with your ability to do your actual job shouldn't be a costume selection. That's pretty simple. Yeah. Coming in as an Amazon package where you can actually sit down and do your God damn job. That's just stupid. Joel: The Rubik's cube one is a good one. Yeah. Don't dress like a Rubik's cube or a, or a minion. I guess that's, that's not good. Chad: Oh, number five, dressing up like your boss is probably not a K. Especially if he hates you. He or she hates you. Joel: Yeah. Don't do that. It's a good joke. If they like you and they have a good sense of humor, that's always a good, a good, a good costume. But yeah, if they, if they're a Dick, if they're, you know, a douche don't like you, don't do it. Chad: Yeah. If you have to put up a sign to explain who you are, go back to the drawing board. That's pretty simple. Joel: I'm a one night stand. Hahahaha. Get it? That's always one that needs some explaining. Chad: Yeah.. Okay. Once again, you're probably the main reason for all eight of these. Uh... SFX: That's just one big pile of shit. Chad: If less than half your staff will be dressing up. You need to cancel dressing up. See. I don't get this at all because this is about being a individuals in a team environment and being, and allowing those individuals to be who they are. Not to mention this might also spur, I don't know, some creativity through the rest of your fucking team. So allow it to happen. Just make sure that they don't dress up like, you know, naughty janitors or something. Joel: Oh shit. So what's your favorite candy before we we depart. Chad: Reese's peanut butter cups. Very, very simple. Joel: Boom. I knew there was a reason why we had a show together. It's definitely the number one candy. And with that, Chad, happy Halloween. Don't drink too much. Get woke. And we out! Walken: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? Podcast, the Chad the Cheese. BRILLIANT! They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, swiss, so many cheeses and not one word, some weird anyhoo. Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese so weird. We out! #VONQ #Programmatic #EngageTalent #WorkforceLogiQ #Amazon #TrickorTreat #Halloween #Careerbuilder #LinkedIn #TimSackett #Chipotle #College

Conferences are fun when Chad & Cheese take the stage. And they're twice as fun when big brands and influential voices join the boys on stage. That's just what happened at Unleash in Paris last week when Brandy Ellis of Smashfly, Chris Wray of Sainsbury's and Adam Yearsley of Red Bull joined the fun. Hint: There were disagreements. And loads of knowledge droppin'. Enjoy this Smashfly exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Chad: This Chad & Cheese cult brand podcast is supported by SmashFly, recruiting technology built for the talent lifecycle and big believers in building relationships with brands, not jobs. Let SmashFly help tell your story and keep relationships at the heart of your CRM. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's on for the Chad & Cheese podcast. Lars: All of you, if you can find it on any podcast hosting tool you want I definitely recommend. It's fun. It's entertaining. It's lively. And it's going to challenge the way you think about the field. And that's what we want at a podcast. But I'd love to introduce the host of the chatting cheese podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman, and they're going to bring out their panel. Let's give them a warm welcome to the influencer stage. Sir. Have fun. Joel: Should we bring out the folks while we're dealing with technical issues? Chad: Yeah, go ahead. Joel: Brandy, why don't you to come up? Brandy from SmashFly. Big round of applause for Brandy. Chris from Sainsbury's, everybody. Big round of applause. And Adam from Red Bull may have run away. He didn't want to be on... Oh, there he is. Okay. Adam from Red Bull. He has wings, everybody [crosstalk 00:01:33]. Chad: All right. Yeah. Technical issues, screw it. Okay. If you haven't listened to the Chad & Cheese podcast before, just so you know, this is an adult setting. They're going to be explicit, possibly F bombs dropping. We're dumb Americans. We do this shit, right? Joel: Not safe for work is what this is. Chad: Yes. So luckily- Joel: Feel free to leave. Our feelings won't be hurt. Chad: We have actually conned Red Bull, Sainsbury's, and SmashFly on stage to talk about brand today and candidate experience- Joel: And we're sitting on bookings so they can't escape. Chad: Yes. Joel: We've got them. Chad: Yes. And we have people in the audience that will stop them as well. We're going to start off first with the introductions. We're going to do that with Adam from Red Bull. So give us a Twitter version, who you are, what you do, why are you on stage. Joel: Elevator pitch. Adam: Adam Yearsley, global head of talent management at Red Bull. I do people. Chad: I love that. Joel: How much Red Bull are you on right now? Adam: I'm actually tired so [crosstalk 00:02:29]- Joel: Oh, you're tired? Okay. But you do come down off Red Bull eventually. Good to know. Brandy. Brandy: I feel like that's kind of a bad representation of brand, right? You're supposed to be not tired. Joel: Yeah, "I'm never tired." Adam: I'm just human. Brandy: Hi, guys. Brandy Ellis from SmashFly. I lead the recruitment marketing function there and previously I was a practitioner for about 18 years. We're going to stop counting right about there. Joel: You were six years old. Brandy: What? Joel: You were six years old. Brandy: Absolutely yes. I was six years old when I started. But no, I've come up through candidate experience and recruiting and all of the things. So very glad to see all of the mix of people here in the room because I think we've got a good group. Chris: Hi, my name is Chris Wray. I'm head of recruitment strategy for Sainsbury's. I look after 60 work streams for the business and one of these work streams is brand and attraction. Joel: Excellent. So I know, Chad, you have something you want to start off with. Chad: Hell yeah. Joel: Something Adam wrote. Chad: So Adam wrote this awesome idea/article that you actually put into play where you partnered with marketing. Believe it or not, marketing you can do this. Joel: It can happen. Chad: So I want to learn and want these guys to hear more about the partnership of becoming a force multiplier with marketing. Adam: Yeah. I'm a organizational psychologist by trade. So a lot of what I do is work out how to influence behavior. And at Red Bull we have a marketing department. Guess what they do? Influence behavior. Chad: Give you wings. Adam: Yeah, they give you wings but they do it on scale. So a lot of the techniques marketing is using to influence behavior to get people to buy products we also need to use to get people to use our products and get people engaged with our products. But probably taking three steps back, the first learning I really got from my marketing people was consumer centered design. Design- Chad: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Say that again. Adam: Consumer centered design. Chad: When candidates or what also. Adam: Right. But that's the point. They're consumers- Chad: Yeah, I know. But I don't think in talent acquisition we get that shit. Adam: No- Chad: We think candidates are candidates and they're our customers. But carry on. Carry on. Adam: Good. No, I think we do. I think people get it. Adam: People I don't think they're aware of what you can really do with employee brand within the company. I think we sort of go, "Oh, well I'm going to create something and then I'll send it to my marketing department, see if they like it." Get your marketing department in and co-create with them something. And often marketing is really interested because around employee brand they've got more space to maneuver than they do around the company brand a lot of the time because normally it's quite a wide space. So normally you can get marketing in with you it's- Chad: They have more influence. They have more influence. They have more dollars. Adam: They do. They have more money. Chad: They have more dollars. Adam: Always more money. Joel: More money. Adam: Yeah. And then if you can convince them that your EVP play is actually a marketing play then you can take some of their money. Joel: Does the Red Bull gives you wings work on the employment side as well? Do you guys sort of into each other? Adam: Yeah, yeah. Gives you wings. Get up in the morning, man. That's…. Joel: So if I go to your career site am I going to see a career at Red Bull gives you wings? Do you carry over that same message? Adam: Yeah, yeah we do. Joel: Good. Adam: It's also an internal message in terms of how we run and drive our people. So if you're not doing people development it's against the brand. Chad: Jump in Chris. Chris: So I think there's two points. You say people get it. I honestly don't think businesses actually get candidates king. I still think companies think they're better than the candidate. Also we talk about marketing and EHR and who's better to influence. Actually no. Marketing turn up with data, HR turn up with a presentation, which all looks fluffy. You need to turn up with data. And I think that's the reason why marketing are seen as respected at the table because they understand the data. Joel: And what kind of data does marketing want to see to care? Chris: They actually get a benchmark. They understand their click through rates. They understand what paid search is. Like trying to educate the business about paid search, I did it the other day to some senior leaders and used the analogy as see paid search as everyone knows park, they choose a theme park, it's fast tracked at a theme park. It's getting you to the top of the results, it's getting you there quick. And it's that education base and the storytelling I think marketing are great at. I just think sometimes HR colleagues, I'm not saying Sainbury's because we're great, could say it without getting fired, but I just think they just don't understand it. And I think is also is we don't pick the right agency sometimes. Chad: So isn't that one of the reasons why we're not at the big kid's table? Chris: We still can't even get an ATS right? And that's been around for 20, 30 years. Chad: I mean, we try to make things more complex and we're not speaking the business speak. To be at the C suite table, to actually have a business conversation you're talking about marketing has data and that HR has all the fluffy shit. The reason why marketing gets the money is because they have the data to be able to demonstrate that they are actually impacting the bottom line. Chris: Unless - Chad: Who thinks at NTA we don't impact the bottom line on the consumer side? Who believes that they don't impact the bottom line? Yeah, exactly. We do. Why aren't we talking about that shit? Chris: Let's use example. Would you wait 45 minutes for your Uber? No, you would not wait 45 minutes for Uber. But let's put a candidate through 45 minutes of shit and the hiring manager is never going to use it. I just think it's an absolute disgrace. Brandy: I totally agree. However, Uber has set the expectation that they're going to be there immediately. Talent acquisition- Joel: I like Amazon better. If it took 45 minutes to buy something you never would. Chris: They started doing taxis? Brandy: Whatever product. We already have an expectation of it's going to be here immediately, then it better be there immediately. Unfortunately, we've set the expectation with a lot of people and applicants and candidates or even employees today that the process sucks. They know it sucks, and they're willing to go through the pain to fill out our applications. And that's bad. Adam: Well, not in this market. They're not. I mean, the great candidates that are out there today who already have jobs will not go through 45 minutes of bullshit to be able to apply for a job, which is why you're losing them in the first place. Chris: I think someone said it the best to me, and this is the best analogy. Most application forms are like Game Of Thrones. It's not the best person that actually gets the job. It's the person that actually lasted through the application. So I [crosstalk 00:08:55]- Chad: Survive the winter. Chris: Survive. That's what it is. Joel: How surprised were your marketing departments when they learned how many profiles, resumes, data points were in your ATS? Chris: So marketing don't actually get involved in any of our attraction. We have- Joel: And how many resumes are in your ATS? Chris: So if we look at we get about 500000 applications from our retail perspective at Sainsbury's. Brandy: Is that annually? Chris: Annually. Joel: And do you think your marketing department would be interested in 500,000 potential customers? Chris: They would do. Joel: Yeah. That might be a conversation you want to have. Have you had that conversation? Adam: We're in Europe. So we have a thing called GDPR. Joel: GDPR. Adam: It's like we care about - Joel: There's the wet blanket overall. Adam: I get the Americans to hear like, "Yeah, great. We'll grab the data." No, no, no, no... In Europe where we're a little bit more sensitive to data. Look, I think there's a starting point and the starting point is to take a lot of the things I think we all know really seriously. So just really look at what you already know. You know that it's your candidate experience is your recruiting flow. So really take a candidate view from that and just re-look at what [crosstalk 00:09:47]- Joel: You know what though? I'm going to push back a little bit. Okay? So there's really nothing in your process that says if I apply to Red Bull that I don't get an email after saying, "Thanks for applying. Here's a 25% or whatever discount on your next purchase of Red Bull," which I assume you don't do, but you could. And GDPR does not affect that action whatsoever. Adam: No, 100%. But what we do is we come back to and say, "Well would you like to find out more about yourself and your strengths and how you could develop and grow? If you want to work with us, you're going to need to do that." And then we give you a free psychological assessment with a 20 page report. So we do that. Chris: And how many people uptake that? Joel: Well, that sounds sexy. Chad: I just want a Red Bull hat, man. Just send me a Red Bull hat. Joel: Because when I think Red Bull I think psychological assessment. Chad: Yes. Joel: Give me something I can put some vodka in and have a good time. Brandy: Question on that though, so I get my 20 page psychological assessment and somewhere along the way it says, "You're not right in the head to work here at Red Bull." Chad: Well, it's good to know that now. Joel: Here's your coupon. Brandy: I know, but how do you deliver that message? Because that's where companies fall off the ledge every single time is it doesn't matter if you give them a 20 page assessment or just a quick email delivering that message. Is the tough news. How do you do that? Adam: Well, I think that's exactly the point that I made with my marketing department. I said, "Look, wouldn't it be great if we could add some value to those people, whether they get a job or not?" And we said, "Well, let's help them uncover their story." And so they can use that for the next job or the next interview. They can talk more succinctly about their strengths, about how they can develop and how they can grow. So- Joel: This is sort of for both of you. You guys have applications. Majority of people do not get a job at your companies. Are you doing anything to keep them warm, communicating with them on a regular basis as marketing and [crosstalk 00:11:47]- Chad: Nurture. Joel: Yeah, nurturing farming. Chris: We're trying a lot of products at the moment and we're putting in a couple of SJTs, but also we're doing new app based at the moment. The app gives the candidates... we're bypassing Taleo. I'm not a big fan of Taleo and I'm just an awful ATS. Chad: Who's a fan of Taleo? Yeah, one person. And they work for Taleo just so you know. Chris: And it's interesting. We give the candidate an option. So I'm always candidates choice because I want choice when I go on to any website. So this instead of doing a CV sift we took the CV away and we've asked the candidate for three pieces of information. Quick, easy, let's get to the point. We give them two tests, critical mind thinking and a coding challenge. It's multiple choice. They get to pick it. Each question is 40 seconds. Inside 21 minutes they get a response saying they've pass/fail. Chad: How long does that take though? Chris: Straight away. It's instant. Chad: So how long does the actual assessment- Chris: End to end, 21 minutes. And that's your application as well. What we did do and what we're monitoring at the moment is we give the candidate choice to speak to a recruiter and we give the candidate choice to whether they want to discover about us. We had 100 downloads- Joel: When you say speak to recruiters is that a human being? Chris: Yes, speak to a recruiter, have a chat, automatic input. Joel: That's crazy. Chris: Here's a list of times, anytime you want to book in Monday to Friday. We're at 100 downloads in our first week. One person has picked to speak to a recruiter. Joel: But they'll text them. Chris: No. They don't even want to speak to... They just want to literally get to the next stage of assessment. So that starting us just understand is candidates just want convenience until actually they come through. And I'm reading loads of reports is brand loyalty doesn't happen until 60 days after into business. A lot of Gartner is starting to say that, Mercer is starting to say that, is candidates have got choice these days and if we don't realize that you're going to be left behind. Chad: Well, that's the experience though, right? You're talking about the experiences now, but it carries on. It's not something that just happens in that moment. It happens in the moment, but it also carries on, which goes back to the whole nurturing conversation. Joel: Brandy, you probably have an opinion on nurturing candidates, don't you? Brandy: I do. I have a lot of opinions on nurturing. I'm not going to talk about the company that I worked for necessarily but- Chad: When you were a level three. Brandy: I was with IBM. I've been with- Chad: I knew that. Brandy: ... large organizations and- Chad: Small companies. Brandy: ... small companies, we never had a nurturing program. It was moment in time, fill out the application, whether it's 20 minutes or however long the psychological assessment take. But it's moment in time. That's what we're looking at. And today the conversation is shifting to that candidate's life cycle of a job. I mean, people are averaged in the workforce 40 years, unfortunately. And so they're going to come back to us. Chad: They're not qualified today but they might be qualified tomorrow. Brandy: Correct. Chad: I think we're working too much in this segment in time as opposed to filling pipelines because we're going to have to fill these positions next year, the year after that, so on and so forth. And if we piss these people off not only they're not going to buy our product but they're not going to come fucking work for us. Brandy: No, it's absolutely true. And you reduce the amount of workforce that you have access to. So the worst the experience the people go through it and then the available talent becomes talent scarcity even more because they don't want to work for your brand and they're not going to deal with your brand, both as a consumer and as a candidate. So the people you can recruit go down. Adam: Yeah. There's a lot of companies here selling artificial intelligence, machine learning, and black box algorithms that'll magically match people to jobs. Chad: Does that work? Well- Joel: I don't think you can have a booth here unless less AI is somewhere. Adam: I know. I know. Chad: That's a checkbox. Adam: Does it work? Well, I haven't seen it work with the sort of accuracy that I'd put my job on it. I haven't gone up to an AI yet and said, "Show me what my perfect job would be and have it spit back global head of talent management." Now, it could be I'm in the wrong job. I don't know. Let's see. Chad: Take that assessment and you'll find out. Adam: Right. But, I mean, even take five steps back from AI look at how you market the jobs. Look at how you position yourself as a company. Take a marketing approach to consumer segmentation. The people applying for jobs in your retail section at Sainbury's are radically different to the people that apply for jobs in marketing. Yes, you have a brand, but don't assume that that brand goes beyond everything. Different sorts of people go for different jobs. We know that. So segment based on that and then get your marketing group in and say, "Let's build a map of who that person is," and create that person and then say, "Now, how do I market to them? What does the job ad need to look like? What sort of words are going to trigger their attraction and where can we place that ad?" And it's just taking what we already do, I think, in recruiting three steps further, and then you end up with individual ads for different jobs, which makes sense [crosstalk 00:16:47]. Chad: So here's the question. Those are the people that you're targeting, but there are a ton of candidates that aren't going to be qualified for your job, and yet they could perspectively buy your brand and you still want to have that great brand loyalty with them. How do you still ensure that this person is never going to have a job perspectively within your brand, but yet you still have to give them a great experience? How do you focus on that too? Because I think we focus on talent acquisition and brand management on, okay, I've got to go find that perfect candidate. Well, that's great. But what about all those candidates who are silver medalist, bronze medalist, and ones who won't even ever work at your organization but yet could buy your product? Joel: And also do you think about people who come to the site, don't see a job for them and then leave the site? There are ways to capture those folks, whether it be retargeting, advertising, or hey a pop up that says, "Hey, don't leave yet. We may not have a job for you but give us your information. We'll keep you updated on opportunities." Adam: The candidate experience thing is exactly as you described it. So we have a tiered... so depending on how much interaction we've had, how much investment you've given to us depends on how much investment we give back to you. So if you're phone interviewed then we'll post you four cans of Red Bull and a nice note. So it depends. It's all gradual and it's graduated. And as I said, everyone touching us from a recruiting side gets a free psychological assessment with a 19 page report. So it's a beginning. It depends on what level. But each [crosstalk 00:18:19]- Chris: Have you tracked what's candidate satisfaction? Do they actually read it? What feedback have you had regarding that report? Adam: I've never asked them because we just look at social media, because what they do is they share it and they talk about it on social media. Chris: What's your engagement in social... What percentage would it sit at or- Adam: Yeah. About 40% of the people that do it share it. Chris: Wow! Adam: Yeah. It's okay. Joel: What's the percentage of positive versus negative? Adam: Negative is really, really small. Yeah. I went to SHL just a minute ago. So expect some negative feedback coming. Chad: If you hang on our show you'll get a few negatives. Adam: Great, great, great. But no, really it's people want to share the experiences and it's such an open playing field because so few companies are giving positive candidate experiences to a no response. So when you do it, it stands out so much that candidates share. And what do they do? They talk about your company in a positive way. "Oh, my God." You've got word of mouth marketing. Oh my God, that's exactly [crosstalk 00:19:15]- Joel: But are you doing either a direct tracking or sort of passive of how much referral traffic you're getting from... I'm sharing this on Twitter, so all the Twitter traffic that comes in I assume that's been increasing over the years as you've done this as well. Adam: Yeah. More on the professional for platforms like LinkedIn and Xing in the Germanic world than Twitter. Twitter is a little bit different platform for us. Chris: And is that test used as a sifting or does the hiring manager give feedback? So you do it at the front end of the process. I come in and interview you. Is your managers giving feedback or - Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. We still very much rely on hiring managers. The candidates are imperfect. The hiring managers are imperfect, and somewhere in between we find beauty and love. Brandy: So this is the one time when my inner recruiter... because I spent a lot of years recruiting. Recruiters used to have such a bad rep, and for that reason the hiring managers are equally as bad, if not worse. And so a lot of the best in breed companies that I'm seeing now are starting both recruiter education programs and hiring manager programs, how do you speak to the candidates, how do you get their mind around that experience itself. And one of my clients, actually CBS, I don't know that you guys have them here, they're just a US based company, but a very, very large pharmacy brand. They have over 4 million contacts in their talent community just alone. They get something like three million applications a year. It's absolutely insane. And if you think about they only hire about 130000 every year that's like 2.8 million thanks but no thanks. Brandy: And what they've started doing is putting the candidate experience survey throughout the recruiting process. So anytime you send an automatic letter out of the system it has a link to tell us what you think. And they've gotten several comments, and one of them stood out to me so much, especially for this panel, and it said, "I feel like your company actually cares. Thank you. I'm going to buy more products," verbatim in the survey. Chad: Yeah. And how does that impact do you think the line of business, and do you talk to the line of business? Because we impact product. We impact customers. I mean, are we doing that? Chris: So we did a rough estimate. So we worked out in Sainsbury's retail from a 10% candidate experience. We looked at our average number of applications. We then looked at the average number of job offers versus a 10% candidate bad experience. And we worked out about 147 million in sales it would cost us as a business. My team has been here a year, and it was newly created into the business. Those conversations people started to listen. People started to go, "Holy shit." Chad: Who did you go to with that number? Because that's a big number. Chris: So that's the heads of departments, that's my boss. And that opens up a conversation when you're saying number people go, "Whoa." Chad: Well, that's a business conversation. Chris: He didn't want to know more. But this comes back to data is we don't have data or we don't understand that and we don't pull. So again, best friends. We talk about marketing being our friends. Is the chief data scientist officers my best friend? Joel: That's a good point. Chris: The Sainsbury's data and I'm all over them because they're the expert, and I use the example is they always say is I come to you for data but when you ask me about recruitment I'm the expert. And I think our recruiters are shit at doing that, is I don't tell you how to code you shouldn't tell me how to recruit. Adam: Chris, there's two sides to this though, the data, yes, 100% data, the best friend, but at the same time I really think you need a story as well and that's why you need the marketing best. You need all the best friends, right? Chris: I think you need a story, but I also think is the data will help inform where do you put that story or what site you put it on. Chad: I think it's impacted too, right? Because it provides a bigger impact. It's not just a bunch of fluffy talent acquisition bullshit. When you can go to them and say $145 million that provides really impact to that story. Chris: To some businesses dirt is I like to call them the vanity projects. They don't want to have the conversation so they put a billboard outside of their office and, "Look I'm doing some work," is actually that really frustrates me. And I do come back and say to the data is it will speak itself and you understand where you need to be, your priorities. So- Adam: Getting marketing in those, it's not too hard because, I mean, you just need- Chad: Talk about that though because I think everybody out there is like, "How in the hell do I connect marketing? They won't give me the time of day." Who's tried to actually connect with marketing before and they're like, "Go away"? I mean, that's not easy. Tell us how you did- Joel: Who has connected with their marketing department and has a good relationship with them? Chad: Excellent. So- Joel: Good for you. Chad: Good collaboration. How do you get the- Chris: Let me ask the question, who owns their own brand guidelines? Who's gained that trust with marketing where they just say is, "We trust you to do your job"? Chad: Two people. Joel: The minority I think. Chad: Two people. We're going to podcast. So I've got to actually say this. Go ahead. Adam: For me, and I mean I've no idea how you need to do it in your companies, I mean, Red Bull is a marketing company. So it makes it easy. Most things come from marketing. But it was really a case of sitting down and saying, "Look, we have these people coming to us, 500000 every year who actually invest 20 minutes to apply for a role. They're not candidates. They are fans." And then I took a step back and said, "In life there's three really big decisions. Who am I going to marry, what house am I going to buy, and what company will I work for." And I said, "They're willing to make that bet on us." Now the question is, what are you going to do with that? What can we do with that together? Marketing. How could you maximize that experience? They're open. They want us. Adam: And then at the same time you stand there and you show marketing its numbers in terms of how much does it spend trying to find new people to attract to the brand. And you say, but these guys are already coming and they're already saying they love us. We've just got to have a better conversation with them and add some value to them. Brandy: I think it's two part. One, with marketing you have to go to them and translate the data because you're both right in saying that you have to have the data. And in HR in general we're not very good at translating the data into the impact and into the story. And I think that's one of the pieces. But then at the second time creating a candidate, a journey map of some sort, is one of the more important things because we forget in the transaction of recruiting the moment in time what that person is feeling when they choose to commit to your brand and be willing to work for your organization. That's an emotional high. And then they drop off. I mean it's a roller coaster. Joel: I want to talk about some external issues. So many times your brand is what other people say about you and not what you say about yourself. So the advent of Glassdoor and other employer review sites obviously impacts what you guys are doing. Talk about what you're all doing or what you're seeing in terms of how companies are engaging with Glassdoor, what's best practices, what you're saying, or what you're doing. Adam: I ignore them. I don't deal with them. Brandy: I would love to advise my clients and in a past life I would love to say that we didn't deal with Glassdoor, but we did for the reason that I worked for a very small technology company that was recruiting data scientists and we were competing with the likes of Intel and Google. And there was just no way that we would get them. And so we had to reply to our Glassdoor responses, but it had to be incredibly authentic. And that's a word that gets thrown around all the time. What I mean by that is we owned our shit. I mean, we said, "Yes, it's bad. Yes, we're fixing it, and yes, here's a program. Give us specific example, proof if you will, of what we're doing to make the environment better." And we actually had really great feedback from the data science candidates that appreciated it. But it takes time. Chad: Well, aren't those great signals though? I think there's so many signals that are out there and a lot of them are noise, but these could be signals that actually demonstrate that this is a problem and it might be a problem that you're not even aware of until it pops up. Adam: Yeah. I've just got to say something that I forgot. We actually as part of that the decision not to work with Glassdoor was one part. The other part was to put a big fat contact us button in the middle of it. So we got the signals direct from the candidates themselves and not via a social media platform. So we let them come to us and talk with us a lot more easily. Chad: So you do listen. It's just the whole Glassdoor mafia game you're just, "Screw Glassdoor." Yeah, I agree. I agree. Joel: I think it's stupid to ignore reviews that are online. And it's not just Glassdoor. There are 20 plus sites out there that are dedicated to anonymous employee feedback, and whether it's InHerSight or Fairygodboss or WomenHack that is dedicated to female engineers or females, I just think it's a mistake to ignore it. Obviously you've done this a long time and it works for you, but I think as a company you should at least listen to what's going on. Whether you engage or not, I would invite you to engage. Chris: So that's the difference. Joel: Just simply ignoring it I think is a bad strategy. Chris: So the differences is engaging with it is you maybe don't want to engage on their platform, but it's showing you've actually done something about it and seeing there's going to be a trend to that. So I don't read Glassdoor. I do read Indeed. I know Indeed own Glassdoor now, but to me is as long as you're monitoring it and you're understanding what's going on and doing something about it- Joel: So are you engaging with reviews? Chris: So we're not engaging with. We're looking at them and we're understanding what's going on and what people are saying. Joel: Was there a decision to not engage? Was there a discussion at the work? Chris: Yeah. Joel: And why did you come to the conclusion of not engaging? Chris: We wanted to show we're doing something about it and it's that uptake of do we have the resource to actually continue to answer and respond [crosstalk 00:29:01]. Joel: So it's a resources question. Brandy: So do you have on your Glassdoor pages or your sites, because you don't have to pay in order to put something out there, do you have a statement that says while we're not responding to these we are looking and listening? Adam: We have curated our Glassdoor page and yes, occasionally we do look at it to monitor it and to curate it. I think that's a differential. Joel: So forget Glassdoor for a second. I mean, you mentioned Indeed. Indeed will tell you the have more reviews than Glassdoor. So do you pay attention to indeed and what's going on there? Ignore it. Okay. Brandy: Chris, do you guys have a statement that says, "We're reading this and-" Chris: No, but I'm taking that straight away and texting like, "Please update." Brandy: Honestly, that's one of the things we're here to talk about though, is we're impacting brand and experience. And if you're not telling them that you're doing it then how do they know? Chris: 100%. And I always say is we're not perfect. And I wouldn't sit here on stage and say we're perfect, is we're on a journey and I've never seen... it's such a fast paced moving social. You just got to keep up, keep on evolving, and keep learning. That's the big thing is learning from people's mistakes and from your network as well. Joel: Yeah. Let's to get to some questions here on the board. Max, is that you, Max? No. Maybe. All right. All right. This one is for Red Bull. Do global employers like Red bull get a different CRM in Europe versus the US versus... ROW is what? Rest of the world. Okay. Americans don't care about the rest of the world. In order to adapt to local preferences, regulations. Different CRMs. Adam: Candidate CRM I assume we're talking. Brandy: Yes. Adam: No, we actually have one global CRM. We have a few different workflows for exactly that, for adapting to both regulations and volume because some markets, like the US for instance, very large volume. We have different roles there, high turnover recruiting as well. Other markets are incredibly small. We only have 150 people so we can have very different candidate workflow. So we built it very flexible depending on volume but also on legal requirements. Joel: Chris. Chris: We've got Taleo, which kills me inside, mindful this is being recorded. But we're having conversations now. We're really understanding, and again it's back to the figures. We're starting to educate the business. I'm really telling that story to the businesses. If we don't step up we are going to lose candidates. And we use the example now, which I say is in retail we do not struggle to recruit. Some of our adverts have to be taken down in 24 hours because you get 600 applicants for one role where in data, digital and tech, we do. People can see past the shop window. They see us as a retailer. They see us as this 150 year old boring business. So that's when we do have to change the experience and bringing in apps and bringing in different systems. Joel: So Mario wants to know about multimedia. As you guys know, video is eating the internet. Video is huge, right? You've got TikTok, you've got Snapchat, Instagram videos. What are you guys- Chad: Podcasts. Joel: And podcast. Yes. Thank you. What are you guys doing multimedia wise? I'm sure Red Bull, you guys are probably doing something interesting in that way with either video or podcast or blog. Chad: Dude, they've got people jumping out of space and shit. I mean- Joel: Yeah. That was crazy by the way. There wasn't an apply at Red Bull link anywhere but I'm sure they got the message. Adam: From an employee branding point of view, yeah, I mean, we leveraged the different plat social platforms. From a video side I integrated videos into the psychological assessments. You get video coaching from Red Bull athletes based on your personality. That seemed to work very well. We have video- Joel: So Red Bull athletes. Adam: Yeah. Joel: So the athletes that represent your brand, they're the ones that are engaging with candidates. Adam: Yeah. Joel: That's cool. Chad: That's pretty fricking awesome. Adam: And then we use companies like HireVue for video interviewing platform. We have that as well. A lot of the branding activity I'm doing on LinkedIn... and we post content that is work related on LinkedIn. Sometimes it's video content, sometimes it's funny video content, sometimes it's an athlete racing to get to a plane and he's a parkour athlete. So he's running, jumping, and diving as he tries to get to the plane. So it- Chad: Hertz and OJ Simpson. Adam: Kind of. Yeah. So it depends on what we're doing, how we use it. But yeah, video, multimedia - Joel: We brought up OJ in a podcast. Yes. Chad: I should take that. Brandy: Since I'm not in the recruiting space specifically anymore, I'm consulting now, I'm seeing across the board AI especially, buzzword for the conference, interlocking all of your technologies. So AI can trigger recruiter, can trigger workflow to talk to the person in the moment. And then video is taking over. I think predictive intelligence is probably the next that we're going to start to see of candidate matching. And we talked briefly about that. Candidate matching with jobs and that sort of thing is starting to be the next on the list. Chris: So are we talking from a brand awareness or are we talking about through the process? Because from a brand point of view is... so we've created a new EVP, which I'm going to talk about later. Awful. Please come. But we're starting to do a lot of video content. So we're split into two pieces. We're split into thought leadership content because people are starting to move for thought leaders. So we're doing 30 to 60 second videos, which we're pushing out to multiple channels and starting to look at the impressions and the click through rates and understanding. Our engagement rates are through the roof. We're sitting at 4.8%. Chad: These are videos. Chris: Videos. So Cisco have used a stat by 2022 82% of people will watch video. That's what you're saying is if you are... I use the example is and I use my dad for example, is hate when he's building something he looks at the instructions. When I'm building something I go on YouTube. And that's what gen Z are doing. Gen Z are watching two hours to fours video a day. If you don't have a video strategy in your marketing pace you're going to be screwed in two years time because people don't want to read stuff. They think it's HR and they think HR sat in their ivory tower and they've read it out and they've published it. Video doesn't lie. You can see authenticity, and it's.... The whole corporate stuff annoys me as well. It has to be authentic. Joel: So will job descriptions start having videos within the job description or should they? Chris: I think they should. Chad: Like a day in the life kind of [crosstalk 00:35:24]? Chris: And I saw in ATS and ATS has done it. And also they've done endorse where they've got colleagues going on and endorsing the job. So it's video endorsement. I'm like how authentic can that be - Chad: So how you're getting engagement? Because we see a ton of video out on YouTube and it'll get like 10 views. They're like, "We did this great video. We put it on YouTube, and then we put it on our website." How are you getting the engagement? What kind of strategy do you have from an engagement standpoint? Adam: We just take a content marketing view of it. So what we need to do is add value to the candidate. It's got to be valuable information either about the company or about enhancing themselves, growing themselves. So we kind of stick to that from a content side. We have videos- Joel: And when you create content are you leveraging the main Red Bull brand- Adam: Sometimes. Joel: ... or is it a separate? Adam: These days I'm asking the brand guys to go create a piece of content weaving their stuff with my stuff. So it's going backwards and forth. Joel: Smart. Brandy: That's how it should work. Eventually hopefully that's how it will work. Joel: Historically it hasn't. Adam: And we have four- Joel: Employing brand has their YouTube channel and the main market [crosstalk 00:36:32]- Adam: No, no, no, no, don't do that. That's bad. But we have four day in the life micro-sites as well with video integrated showing people. These are high volume roles. We have a lot of them to show people really what the job is about because the best AI at the moment for me is a candidate that really understands what the job is and also really understands themselves. And if they can do that, they can make a match, and that's very cheap for me. It's very time efficient for me, and it's normally fairly accurate. Joel: So does this video go across all social media platforms or what is sort of the distribution strategy for you guys? Adam: Yeah. It's LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter. There is YouTube parts of it, but it's a micro site with video components. So it lends - Joel: More social media that YouTube. Chris: Just out of curiosity, do you have to love Red Bull? I'm getting a feeling is you have to love Red Bull to work for them. If I say at Sainsbury's we see people walking with Tesco bags. We see people walking Ocado. But I get a feeling is you have to live, breathe red Bull to work there. Adam: No. Joel: You're saying like it's a bad thing. Shouldn't employees love the brand? Chris: It from a diversity point because I'm like is consumer different to employer brand? Adam: Yeah, it is. That's a really good question. So our consumer brand is very risk-taking, very rebellious, whereas my EVP brand is very professional and it's about the quality of the projects and the executions we do. And there's a nuance between those two. There's similarities. Chris: And what is that nuance? So I give you Sainsbury's. So let's look at the digital and tech. Our Achilles heel is the stores. People don't realize the coll shit we do. They don't realize the 1.2 billion transactions, they don't realize about the nectar card, et cetera. What is the perception gap between the Red Bull brand versus the consumer? Adam: Like I said, from a brand side it's extreme sports. It's about taking risks constantly and it's very winning sport based. On the company side, it's a lot about failure and making mistakes and learning very rapidly. It's about having an extremely high level of professionalism and I think it's a lot about being authentic in terms of how we deal with each other within the organization. So there're nuances, and so what I have to do is counteract my company's brand. If I put running, jumping, flying imagery I've got to be very careful to counteract that with professionalism, look at the execution of that event, look at how we do this, think about how that comes to life to counteract if you like. Chad: Let's hit these next ones pretty quick. Joel: Sure. Chad: So talking about experience and Ethel asks about employee experience, customer experience, candidate experience. My question to you is do we make things harder than it should be? Shouldn't it just be that human experience that they have with your brand, whether they're an employee, whether they're a customer, whether they're a candidate. Shouldn't we always just be focused about the human at the end of the experience and stop fucking labeling it with all these different labels? Brandy: Yes. Chad: We make it too hard. Brandy: Yes. Well, as humans we naturally over-engineer things anyway and humans are complicated. So if you take the human on that journey whether it's the consumer buying journey or the candidate journey, whatever it is, they're in the emotional highs and lows. But then at some point you do have to track and map out what they're going to interact with and where they interact. And that's where it becomes somewhat complicated internally in the organization. Chad: So a candidate experience for somebody who is a developer could be entirely different for somebody who's in brand marketing or something of that nature. I mean, we could chop this up all day, but if we're just focused on the human being, I mean, shouldn't that be what the focus is? I mean, am I making this too simplistic, Chris? Chris: I think you are. I think it also comes down to resources as well, is certain processes in high volume you have to automate the process. You have to be able to give that tough shit through. Chad: That's not a bad experience though. Chris: No, it's definitely not a bad experience, but I do think you have to adopt. It depends. Is there a talent shortage in the market? The thing also annoys me sometimes is the exec recruitment hire is why sometimes, not Sainsbury's but out there, but is they get the golden glove or the white glove treatment and then the rest of the business gets something different. And I never remember. I was actually speaking to a C suite team. They told me how to recruit one time and I said, "When is the last time you actually applied for a job?" And they all looked at me and go, "They usually get phone calls, wined and dined, flown in, taken around a racetrack," I won't say which company and then put up in a nice five star hotel. That's not the typical candidate experience. So I do think you have to adapt sometimes, but I don't think there should be such a big difference between a C suite candidate to your experienced higher point of view. Joel: Next question. Emily asked do we always have to go cap in hand to marketing or should we be pushing to attract more rockstar marketers to employment brand? And I'll also add I see more companies having a middle person that talks to both entities. They talk employment and they also talk marketing to be a bridge between the two. So do you guys have any opinion on that question from Emily? Brandy: Never go cap in hand. That's my first piece of advice. Chad: Go data in hand is what I'm hearing from Chris. Brandy: Well, that's what I was about to say. Chad: Go data in hand. Yeah. Brandy: Go data in hand and- Chad: With the story. Brandy: With the story. Chad: With the story. There you go. Brandy: Exactly. Go data in hand with the story. Don't go cap in hand because if you go cap in hand it's devaluing what we do in the talent function, and by devaluing that going cap in hand you're not leveraging all of the resources and the data that you have. HR and recruiting, we've got a ton of data whether we can do something with it or whether it's organized that's a whole different topic, but go with confidence and go saying this is my number of people who interact with my side of the brand every single day and wouldn't it be nice if those people were also brand advocates and start there. Chad: Beautiful. Well, thank you very much. Joel: Thank you guys. Everybody let's hear it for them. Chad: Chris, Adam, Brandy, give it. Joel: Hey, guys, real quick. If anyone out there wants to learn more about you guys Twitter handles LinkedIn- Chad: Where can they find you? Joel: ... any last words. Adam: LinkedIn. Thank you. Brandy: Twitter @BEllisrecruits. Chris: LinkedIn. I won't share my Instagram. It's too dodgy. Joel: Chadcheese.com. Chad: Thanks everybody. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad & Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more visit chadcheese.com. #RedBull #Sainsburys #Smashfly #UNLEASH #EmployerBrand #Marketing #EmploymentBrand #Brand #Branding #UX

Recorded LIVE from UNLEASH World in Paris' showfloor. Brought to you by our friends at Sovren, Canvas, and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It is time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. Chad: I just love that. Joel: Bonjour Monsieur, Chad. Chad: Bonjour, Mr- Fromage Joel: Bienvenu...to the Chad and Fromage podcast from Paris France. Chad: France. Joel: What's up listeners? We're here at the unleash conference in Paris. We've invaded the Meyer booth. We've taken their WiFi. We've taken their tables. We've stalled the sales process. Chad: Yes. Joel: We've probably put them out of business because of our weekly show. We are the Chad and Cheese Podcast HR's Most Dangerous. Chad: Live. Joel: This week we're going to be talking the UNLEASH show. We're going to be talking Indeed shake downs and we're going to be talking Glassdoor mobsters. Stay tuned. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products and now based on that technology come Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job and just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: And we're back. Joel: And we're back dude. If you hate shout outs, you're going to hate this part of the show [crosstalk 00:02:01], there's so many people to thank from our week in Paris. I'm going to start with UNLEASH in general. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: They gave us a Mic, they gave us a stage, they gave us a voice and we appreciate that because it's not the safest choice. Chad: No and they gave us some really good panelists. It's one of the things that I love when we work with shows and they want to be able to get their people up on stage. Joel: Sure. Chad: We had Chris Wray from Sainsbury's. We had Adam Yearsley from Red Bull. Had Brandy Ellis from the SmashFly. So yeah, I mean we had... They even extended our period. We were supposed to have 30 minutes. We went to 45. We're talking about brand, experience and just really cool shit. So we will be dropping that Podcast. Joel: They even gave us Lars, as our master of ceremonies. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: He's like he doesn't just do anybody. Chad: Yeah. You get it. Get a little Lars actions. Joel: That's good. You got through a lot of shout outs there with our guests. Chad: Oh good. Joel: So that's good. Shout out to Paris. Chad: Yes. Joel: It has been very good to us. The food's great. The wine is amazing. The city's beautiful if you haven't been to Paris, could not recommend it more. We're very lucky. Indianapolis does not have a lot of international direct flights and amazingly they have a direct flight- Chad: It does. Joel: ... to Paris. Chad: I love it. Joel: So we're really enjoying the town and the quick flight over to Europe. Quick shout out to Neely Verlinden. Chad: Ver what? Joel: Yeah, she's with AIHR, which is not- Chad: Say that again. Joel: ... Artificial intelligence- Chad: No. Joel: ... Yeah. Chad: A-I-H-R. Joel: Neely Verlinden, AIHR. We did an interview with her yesterday. Talk shop, podcasting industry stuff. Be on the lookout for that. We'll link to it from chadcheese.com we'll share it on socials. It was a good time. Chad: Big shout out to all of our friends and I'll try to hit as many as I possibly can. Joel: Our dinner friends is that who you’re going after? Chad: Well, we had the dinner friends. We had the Adam Gordon's of the world. You know, Andreea Wade- Joel: Yup. Elin, from Tengai. Chad: Elin, from Tengai. Max Armbruster. Joel: Max twice. Chad: See Max is French. Joel: Yes. Chad: He leaves in Hong Kong now. Joel: He is Parisian- Chad: ...but he hooked us up two nights in a row. Amazing restaurants so big shout out to Max and the Talkpush peeps so... Also we just saw Matt Alder. He looked like he needed some sleep. Joel: Not as much as you look like you need sleep. Chad: Well, that's because I was up till two. Joel: Hung Lee. We saw Hung- Chad: Yeah. Got to love some Hung Lee. Just plenty of guys. The guys over at social talent, Dave, Johnny, the crew. Joel: Yeah. We had a good time with the social talent guys. They had a giveaway idea for condoms. Apparently- Chad: The Johnny. Joel: ... the condoms in Ireland are called Johnny's. Chad: Johnny's, yes. Joel: So Johnny Campbell and the Johnny giveaway. I thought it was funny and frankly I think there is no better [crosstalk 00:04:57], than Johnny's face on a condom. Chad: Yeah because you're going to stay hard putting that thing on. Joel: Yeah and we're going to continue to hound them to one day have fresh Guinness from Ireland actually in the booth. Chad: How are we in Europe and we don't have fresh Guinness from the booth. I mean, come on guys. Joel: When we saw Shane Clinch for a very short period. Chad: Oh yeah. He was in and out. Joel: So you know, he's usually the one that brings us our supply. He's our Mr. Dr feelgood. Chad: Yeah. And he didn't- Joel: And he failed us this time but he's... No hate on Shane. He's always good for it. Chad: Shane's brought us so much beer. Joel: If there's an Irish in the house and there's no whiskey or Guinness I'm pretty upset. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Shout out to Laura Drori from Saba software in the UK. She's a big fan. She was at the show- Chad: Saba. Joel: ... yesterday and wanted to send me a message saying, great show guys. Thanks a lot. I'm a big fan. Keep doing what you guys do. Andy Whitehead, another big fan that hit me up on LinkedIn. He's with a LiveHire out of Melbourne, whatever. Andy, we love the Aussies. Keep listening and keep spreading the joy. Chad: I have to say Muir McDonald and that's how you have to say it. It's like you have to say it... You have to say with some confidence. Joel: With some Cheesertude- Chad: Yes, some confidence. So Muir McDonald. Yes. So we appreciate again, all the shout outs and also helping us to understand how to exactly pronounce your name my friend. Good job. Joel: I'm going to go Richie Bodo from Neuvoo out of Missouri, another big fan of ours. Chad: Missouri. Joel: Mizzou, the show me state and we show them the knowledge by... Anyway. Wow. We went through shoutouts pretty quickly actually. I'm really impressed. Chad: Yes. I'm sure everybody's happy about that. Joel: Why did we not go that quickly on the regular show? I don't know. Our travel schedule is dwindling as the year comes to a close. Chad: Yup. Joel: But we still have iCIMS- Chad: Yeah, iCIMS. Joel: ... coming up November. I'm going to be doing a session at recruit con in Nashville in November. If you're interested in- Chad: Julie will be there. Joel: ... optimizing your shit for Google for jobs, come out and say hi. I'll be there. Chad: Julie will be there. Joel: Julie Sowash will be there. So she's doing DNI stuff I guess. Chad: Yeah. She just talk about how you actually get outcomes and hire people and shit. Yeah. That's- Joel: She better not be on a bigger stage than me. That's all I'm saying. Chad: She should be. Yeah. And then we have TalentNet in Dallas. Joel: TalentNet, yep. Closing the year out in Dallas. We're still waiting on Carrie Corbin to say yay or nay coming on stage. You looking like that that's not going to happen. Chad: She gave me the cold shoulder. Joel: Cold shoulder. All right. Chad: Come on- Joel: Carrie you can talk the talk. Walk the walk. Chad: Come on girl you walk the walk. Joel: Come up on stage along. Otherwise we'll be doing our world famous naughty or nice list from the year from Dallas live. So if you're there, come out and say hi. All the usual Dallas, Texas suspects should be there. Charney, obviously Fisher and others. Chad: Got a big group there in Dallas in Texas. Joel: And by the way we're formulating next year's schedule. Chad: Yeah. Joel: If you thought you had too much of us this year, well damn it, you're out of luck because you might get more of us next year based on what the calendar starting to look like. Chad: Not enough of Chad and Cheese in anybody's diet. Let's just make- Joel: Especially if you're French. Chad: Yes. Joel: Cheese is everywhere. Chad: Chad and Fromage Joel: Delicious. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk the UNLEASH show in more detail. JobAdX: Nope. No, not for me. All these jobs look the same. Oh, next. This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just halfheartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it. We live in a world that is all about content, content, content so why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions. Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with job Adx. JobAdX: Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdx seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop-off. You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across our network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team. Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing joinus@jobadx.com that's joinus at J-O-B-A-D-X dot com attract, engage, employ with JobAdx. Chad: And we're back. Joel: And we're back. Chad: And we're back. Joel: All right UNLEASH one of the, I'd say top five at least HR conferences in the world. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That's probably non debatable. Chad: No, I don't think that's debatable at all. Joel: And it's our first time. What are some of your first takeaways and things that caught your attention here? Chad: Again, this is one of the most interesting because everything is in one place. You're not walking from one part of a conference center to the next part of the conference center. They're all together. The stages are integrated with the expo hall. I mean... So I mean you- Joel: It's not a go for coffee and maybe talk to a vendor. It's like the sessions are in the expo hall. Like you can't escape. Chad: I mean, I would say if you are a vendor you would fucking love this show because you are always amongst the people. Joel: Yeah. If you're a vendor, you're probably loving the show because there's no like waiting around. Chad: No. Joel: Till the expo moment when they come in for drinks or coffee. Like the entire show you're talking to people who are here at the conference. Chad: And drinks and coffee are always out and they're always around. So it's like, again, you go to a stage, which again, some of these stages are out in the middle of the expo hall, which we were on one of them but you can go from stage to stage. Go to the main stage, which is within the actual confines of this- Joel: you can bounce around and not feel- Chad: Easy. Joel: ... like, Oh, I've got to get up and open the door and be really quiet. Like you just get up and walk away and no one notices. Chad: Yeah, there's so much going on. It's really cool. I do like... It's kind of like a start up area but it's not because SurveyMonkey is there for God's sake. Joel: Well, it is very much like the kiosk HR Tech type pavilion where you have a little kiosk. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But yeah, SurveyMonkey, a large public company in America is in the startup pavilion. Chad: Interesting. Joel: E quest, who's been around for 20 some years in the startup pavilion. So they might want to tighten up the regulations on who can get there. Otherwise, we'll start seeing Microsoft in the startup- Chad: Is it the startup area though, is that what it's called? Joel: Pretty much. I mean the- Chad: Is it? Joel: ... startup stage is right there. Chad: Yeah, that's a good point. Joel: Those are pretty much all startups. Chad: Pretty much all startups. Joel: Now there is a bronze area, which I'm not exactly sure. So SurveyMonkey is a bronze but it's still a kiosk. They can obviously afford a 10 by 10 or something bigger here. So I'm a little confused why they're there but I don't know? Good on them. They budgeted wisely and got a cheap booth technically. Chad: I'm going to say there is no there there. Joel: There is no there there. Yeah. I wonder how many people are going up and saying who are you guys? SurveyMonkey, never [crosstalk 00:12:31], of course primarily American company. Maybe here in the European market they're more new. Chad: So what do you think? Joel: So obviously, I think I agree with all your sentiment on the conferences as it is. It's a big open space. It's vendors and attendees living together. [crosstalk 00:12:49], even the food is given out in sort of small portions on multiple parts of the area. So it's not like you go to one big buffet- Chad: At the back of the hall. Joel: ... at the back of the hall, then you sit away from the vendors. So they've really done a good job of making the people who pay the bills happy I think and that's been the feedback that I've gotten. You mentioned the startup area. Talk to quite a few of those. I think we sat through one of those startup sessions, our buddy George Laroque is a judge there. You know, my takeaway is there are too many startups that are just making stuff that they think is cool and they don't think about what pain am I like solve... What problem am I solving? What pain am I healing? Joel: In fact in many cases, too many companies are creating actually more work for companies. So like you see survey companies where okay, sign up for our shit and then you email all of our people and then your workers have to do more work and then you have to do more work to maybe get something out of that. So I think that's been kind of a bad idea and shit storm for a lot of... Sorry, we are having a lot of activity here outside with a lot of middle fingers. Chad: You pull out the Mics- Joel: A lot of middle fingers and- Chad: You pull out the Mic's and shit happens. Joel: ... bite me kind of a hand gestures, which is nice. So a couple of- Chad: Say hi Aaron. Aaron Matos: Hi. Joel: So yeah, not enough startups solving problems. They're kind of just cool and giving you more time and things to do on your to do list. A couple that stood out to me were Real Links, which I think we both actually stopped by and talked to, which was a referral system. Chad: That was really interesting. Joel: And what I liked about it was it was a pretty automated system. It synced up with your employees LinkedIn, Facebook, et cetera friends and then based on job postings, tried to match them with people in your network and then said, hey, so and so, we think might be a good opportunity for our marketing position. Here's link to send them if you think you agree with that and that was- Chad: I can see that integrating with Slack, who also is here. Joel: But not in the startup. Not in the startup. Chad: Yeah, not in the startup. Joel: So kudos to them for that. Yeah, we'll get to Slack in a second. My other highlight from the startup was Peachy Mondays. [crosstalk 00:15:11]. Yeah. We have way too many animals in the startup area and the vendor areas as a whole but now we're getting into fruits. So we should start saying- Chad: Fruity Mondays. Joel: ... Strawberry jobs forever and maybe- Chad: Oh I like that. That's good. Joel: So they're basically an internal glass door. Chad: Okay. Joel: So you leave anonymous feedback that's internal, which for companies is nice because it's not public and maybe for employees it's nice because they feel like they're being heard and they're not being just voicing out in the world. I do think however, a lot of people would prefer to be heard by the most people possible even though it's anonymous. Whereas a platform like Indeed or Glassdoor is going to give them more of a voice than an internal system but those are two startups that sort of stood out to me as at least interesting. Chad: Yeah. Well, we did see our friends from VideoMyJob here in that area, Candidate.ID, Job Pals. So seeing some of those organizations here are really cool. Joel: Yeah, that we've talked about before. Been on firing squad. Chad: Yeah. One organization that it was easy and I honed in on it quickly. It was called Juno. Joel: Just the logo. Chad: If you have a logo that is your name. It can't be so complex that- Joel: If it looks like Morse code. Chad: Yeah. I can't actually... If it takes me more than three seconds to actually figure out your fucking logo then the logo sucks. Joel: Try to explain their logo for listeners. If you... Like not being able to show it. Chad: Yeah. You know, like that the Etch A Sketch, when you're like you can do things on the Etch A Sketch and it's just like you're doing like little circles and stuff. Joel: Blind Etch A Sketch. Chad: Yeah. It's horrible. You look at it and you're like, what the... Does that... Is that actually what I... No, I think it's Juno and then I look underneath and it's like, yeah it's Juno that is horrible. Joel: It is horrible. Yeah. And whatever marketing firm person, company, (five 00:17:06) or contractor came up with that. Like not good. Chad: It's a five year old with an Etch A Sketch. Joel: Agreed on that. Okay. A couple main segments we wanted to touch on was messaging. So you mentioned Slack. Go ahead and then what's your take on them? Chad: It was interesting that Slack would spend time at a show like this. Joel: Sure. Chad: Because we don't generally see them at shows like at the state. I didn't see Slack at HR Tech. Joel: Nope. This is the first show that I've seen them exhibit on. I think maybe the second time Facebook At Work- Chad: They've been here. Joel: ... has been here. Yeah. Chad: So it was interesting because we went to Slack and said, why are you here? Right? And I think it was interesting because they're doing the integrations with applicant tracking systems with surveys that kind of thing. So they're trying to get into the basic flow of work. So instead of going to your applicant tracking system and using your applicant tracking system or going to your applicant tracking system for updates or going to email for updates. If you're in Slack all day and these channels pop up and you see that there notifications then it's just automatically integrated. I thought that was really cool because it's all about process efficiencies. Joel: Yeah and those integrations I think are powerful because it's not just a, hey, you got a new applicant from whatever, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: It was like very detailed information that you get from your Slack dashboard. Chad: I could see background check companies and I mean just all of the data that's coming through you can see it and then you know, when you have to go back to the applicant tracking system to get work done in there. Joel: And looking at Slack, there's actually an HR and culture category within their app store. A lot of it is very heavy with surveys, polling, engagement. You know, send little smileys to your coworkers kind of thing but we mentioned Greenhouse, Lever was there. I don't remember any others that were there but if you're an ATS and you're not integrated with Slack, we both think that was a pretty cool integration. Chad: We have to talk to iCIMS about that when we're out there in a couple of weeks. Joel: Sure. iCIMS, Jobvite. We need to tell Amen to get on that as well. Chad: I think Aman's all over that. I could be wrong. I think he is all over that. Joel: I'd be surprised if he wasn't at least aware of it and had it on their roadmap. So I would... We mentioned Facebook At Work, which is their messenger at work product. What was your takeaway on their stuff versus Slack? Chad: I would say that we knew their product better than they did or at least how to articulate it better than they did. It was weird because you just kind of stepped up and said, okay, tell me about your product and really all they had to say was first, do you use Facebook? Yes. Do you have groups in Facebook? Yes. Okay. That's pretty much it. It's just you have a business side. It's not your personal profile, you have a business profile. So it separates business from personal and what are your questions? That's the pitch. Right? Joel: Yeah and it was pretty clear that... Well, the app store is as an obvious example. Slack has, I'm assuming thousands if not tens of thousands of apps. We asked Facebook how many apps- Chad: They are like 60. Joel: ... were made? Is 60. Now a lot of those are big. Right? Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Like G Suite, Microsoft, which are pretty easy wins for Facebook. They can make one call and get that probably built pretty easily but if you're not connecting with the app makers of the world to create really cool applications to your product. You're probably going to lose to the solution that is doing cool things and creating great integrations. So if I'm a Greenhouse user and it's between Slack and Facebook, I'm obviously going to go to Slack because I can integrate my ATS experience within my messaging system. Chad: Yeah. iPhone had like this huge app store and droid didn't then droid did. Right? I mean, it's just one of those things. So Facebook is such a big brand. All of these organizations are going to want to have and need to have an app there. So I don't think that's going to be that big of an issue. I think they're just going to have this flood but I think they're prioritizing well. They're not just waiting for the little app guys to come in and start creating the... They're doing the big integrations first. Chad: So yeah, I'm not too worried about that. I'm just not sure about them in this space. Facebook in this space. They don't understand this space. I mean with their ads, their job ads and being able to boost those and that kind of shit. I mean they just don't get what we need so why would they get from a business standpoint what we need from a communications or what have you? So I don't know. I don't buy Facebook in this space. Joel: Yeah. We did ask them, hey, you guys have job postings on your marketplace. You have this corporate sort of a solution. When can we start seeing integration between posting jobs and you're at work messaging platform? And they seem to think, yeah, that could happen. Again, you said we knew more about their product than they did in some cases. So I wouldn't expect that to happen anytime soon but it is something that they would have over Slack, which does not have 3 billion consumers use it on the planet. Chad: See that and that's exactly right. So if you do have that Greenhouse integration and you're automatically pushing a feed of jobs into the Facebook marketplace, right? So I mean, that could all go along and then again, you could get messages on that on workplace. Joel: Totally true. Chad: So yeah. So I mean, they have a huge leg up from a market standpoint and their marketplace on Facebook. So I mean... So they know how to do that. Again, I'm just not satisfied with what they've done thus far in the business space. Joel: Yeah and there's really nothing stopping Facebook from building integrations into ATS already to automatically post jobs, which we know that they're doing anyway. So that's obviously on the table. Let's talk about bots. Particularly chat bots I guess, because they are [crosstalk 00:23:04], right after this we're going to be going to the battle of the bots- Chad: The battle of the bots. Joel: ... session, which is going to not only feature Meyer but- Chad: We've got like half an hour till that starts. Joel: ... Paradox. Our friends at the robot, Tengai will be, Max at Talkpush. Pretty much it's going to be a who is who of this sector. The only ones here are Meyer and Paradox. The others are sort of hanging around and doing sessions and whatnot but what's... I don't know what your, I guess highlight from that or takeaway. I mean, it certainly seems like the time for the bots is here if it's not coming in a big way soon. Chad: I am so big on bots overall. Not just chat bots but bots from a process efficiency standpoint because there are so much that can be done from automation. So yeah, I think there's just still blue sky out there for chat bots and bots overall and being able to do this chat bot thing is awesome but what about the actual process bots that you don't need human interaction. You know what the process is supposed to be and you just engage in signal. It's big and these guys are obviously getting a shit ton of cash already, right? So it's going to be interesting to see if they can. Because you received all this money, can you actually sell with a valuation that large or do you turn into your own platform? I mean seriously. Joel: And look, I think without naming names. People I've talked to, I think there are offers out there. I think there's [crosstalk 00:24:47], conversations about how much do you want and the question of do you make a lot of money now or do you roll the dice and take a lot of money potentially later and I think a lot of these chatbots are struggling with that question and we'll see. One of my predictions for 2020 maybe yours as well could be, we'll start to see the first chat bot go for allegedly $100 million is sort of the price that we're hearing but yeah, it's a hot space. Joel: I expect it to get hotter. I'm kind of surprised we're not seeing more competitors. Yeah, clearly a big trend here is automation and chat bots are kind of driving that. I also think it's worth noting that the conversations that vendors are having with folks is not so much what is a chat bot but it's how are you guys different from Paradox and ALIO and all the others out there. So there's an education in the market that's happening that I think is really healthy and really underscores how healthy and trending this industry is. Chad: Yeah and I think also as a company it's great to try to understand the differences between them but the biggest key is what is your fucking problem and take that to those vendors and say, this is my problem. How are you going to solve this problem? So having these kind of like high level, how are you different conversations. Okay, yeah, they might be good but they're nothing compared to taking an actual problem to them. Problems. A fucking portfolio of problems and saying, okay, problem, A, here you go and then take them through that. I mean this is the thing that we have to do better Intel acquisition. We can't just have all these box checking, oh will it do this? Will it do that? Will it... You know, will it make me copy? Will... You know, bullshit. Will it solve my fucking pro... What's your problem? That's the key. Joel: Yeah. We need to move away from the days of like, I have a checklist and chat bot is on it and I'll buy any chat bot as long as I can check it off my list. Chad: Challenge your thinking. Joel: What problem do you need solved? Chad: Exactly. Joel: Very important. Because they all are very different in certain ways. Chad: Yeah. And how are they going to solve it? That's the question. How are they going to solve... How's one chatbot going to solve it versus another. Right. And I can guarantee you like Talkpush, which is an entirely different platform, right? Then like maybe Meyer or something like that. They're going to have different ways to actually solve. Joel: Sure. Chad: And from your standpoint, that's the biggest key. Joel: Yup. An actual robot may not be for you. Chad: Yeah. That could be it. Right? Joel: It could be it. Chad: That could be it. Joel: That could be it. I will say another trend that is either troubling or just worth noting is like engagement is getting a little ridiculous. Everyone wants to engage candidates. Chad: Yes. Joel: And I just don't know if we need that many companies trying to solve that problem. Chad: The engagement and then you're engaging but you want something back from them. There's a lot of... They call it engagement but what they're looking to do is get info from the candidate whether it's surveys or whether it's this or that. It's like how much can you inundate an actual human being with? I don't care if it's a question or five questions or whatever it is weekly or biweekly or it's just like, what's that actual person's flow look like in their job? And then how much other shit can they take on? Joel: Do I actually benefit from this and how much of my time is required to give my feedback to you? Chad: Right. Joel: These are all questions that are troubling and also what's the actual benefit aside from data? Are you retaining people more because of what you're getting back? Is there a recruitment element that's in there? I think those are questions that aren't really answered and if it's not making you money or saving you money, what is it doing for you? Chad: Yeah. It costs a hell of a lot less to retain an employee than it is to go find a new one. Joel: And is the engagement tool you're using actually doing that? Chad: …the fuck away. Joel: Or is it pissing them off and getting in their shit? Chad: It could be. Joel: I'll also note from the show, my takeaway was big tech is still big tech. The biggest booths here are still Oracle, Workday. The usual suspects. So in some ways - Chad: The cash cows. Joel: ... things are changing significantly in other ways- Chad: They're not so much. Joel: The shit is still the same as it always has been. One take away from you. I know we've given TMP shit about all the acquisitions they've been doing. What brand are they? What should we call them? They have an interesting presence here at the show. Chad: Yeah. They have a talent brew booth. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Which is an awesome booth. Joel: It is nice. Chad: But once again, what we've talked about before- Joel: There is no beer in the talent brew. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But anyway. Chad: Yeah. We should probably have that discussion but if you think about it, once again, we talked about this last week. You have TMP, AIA, CKR, Maximum I mean and the list just keeps going on and then what happens? Well, and then they just, right? And then they show up here as none of those. As none of those. They show up here as their product Talent brew. I mean, again, I love that they're trying to get the Talent brew name out there but I really think that they had this simple situation going on. Joel: By the way that's a great analogy. Chad: It just so many different names and so many different likenesses- Joel: So just go on by symbol dot AI and be done with it. Chad: And be done with. Put them all up underneath that umbrella and you're done. Joel: And to add to the confusion. You saw a booth that was like TMR or something. Chad: TMF. Joel: TMF. Yeah. Chad: Yeah. Because the F was almost a P. Joel: Almost the exact same font as well. So I would be very confused if I didn't know one thing or the other as to whether that was TMP or what exactly that was, so. Chad: Love those guys. Again, we love the acquisitions that are happening. It's just again, the confusion and all of these multiple personalities are just confusing the fuck... I mean, I can't imagine how it doesn't confuse the market. Joel: All right, well let's take a break and get unconfused. Chad: I like that. Joel: We'll come back and talk about Indeed shaking people down and the mobsters at Glassdoor. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human that's you at the center while canvas bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bit emoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: And we're back. Joel: And We're back. All right dude. The Indeed hate is... It went from a trickle to sort of a nice flow every day we seem to get new intel about what Indeed is doing. Chad: Well in... and companies aren't sure what's happening. That's the problem, right? So again, we were talking about like TMP and there's confusion there, at least from my standpoint there could be. There's confusion on the Indeed side because we've heard... We reported on a company that really had their traffic almost turned off. Right? Their organic traffic and we felt like that, Oh, here we go. They're going to start the smack down and then guess what? Once we put that out there more companies started getting to us and saying, hey look, that's happening to us too. We just saw our organic go flat. What the fuck is going on? Joel: Now word that we heard this week which is new is throttling. Chad: Yes. Joel: A company that we had come to us say that they were getting, was it $5 per apply or the cost that they're paying for an application went from $5 to 15 and they believe that Indeed is sort of moving the knobs on how effective your postings are based on are you going to play or not. Chad: Yeah. I mean there's always been rumors of... and these are... I mean okay so we've had inside information from actual sales people at Indeed when this was happening that there would be money to be spent and it wasn't spent until that last week and then they just jammed it all through. Right? Joel: Right. Chad: Because it was like, do we have budget shit? We've got to do this and now we're talking about more of like a throttling type of an issue where it's like, look, if you're going to get people, you're going to have to pay for them. Right? So the organic and start the payment and then what you're talking about the actual payment is like, well that price that we were looking at is actually going to be going up. So it's interesting. Joel: Ultimately allegedly Indeed is sort of playing with the algorithm to say, look, if you're not paying more, there's a good chance that you're going to start at certain times of the day or month being on page 29- Chad: It's like Uber. Joel: ... and then when the budget... Yeah. Chad: In surge. Joel: Yes. Chad: Surge rate. Joel: Yes, so when the budget needs to be spent, you're going to start showing up on page one and things like that. So it's not about- Chad: It could be their new model who knows? We don't know, but Uber does it. It's called surge and Indeed could just surge the fuck out of- Joel: [crosstalk 00:34:27]. Let's be honest, most people are just going to say, oh shit, I need to spend more money with Indeed. They're not going to ask hard questions or go to an alternative, which I know we talk about quite a bit. That was the advice you gave the Informant that we had this week. Like go check out Neuvoo. Go check out the programmatic solution providers. There are options out there. Chad: If you don't start looking out and diversify your traffic and all your traffic eggs are in one basket, that's on you. I mean, you're fucking yourself. Joel: No doubt then again, if you have information, juicy gossip for us on Indeed and anyone else, hit us up at chadcheese.com either on the record or off the record. We will honor either. Chad: It'll work. Joel: All right. Let's talk about our session. The panel's great. We've already mentioned who was on it. The companies represented Red Bull, Sainsburys, a very popular retailer, SmashFly. Chad: Were all decked out in the SmashFly gear by the way. Joel: And the title I believe was your brand sucks or something along those lines. Chad: Brand matters, experience matters and then in the synopsis, pretty much your experience sucks so therefore your brand sucks and I think that's one of the things that companies are really focused heavily on their brand. They don't get where this whole brand thing comes from. It's the experience. How are you treating actual human beings? Whether they're customers, whether they're candidates, whether they're candidates and customers, whether they're employees, how are you treating them? Right? Joel: Yup. Chad: And if you don't focus on experience then it doesn't matter. Your brand is going to suck. Joel: Yup. And one of the things that was really well said by both of the companies on the stage was how they are engaging with marketing and we preach this all the time. If you're not having sit downs with your marketing department coming with data, which was obviously a huge- Chad: Very much. Joel: ... point taken in the conference, like don't just go to market... Don't go to marketing with your hat in your hand and like help us. Come at them with actual numbers in terms of traffic profiles that are in your system or resumes, applications per day. How many people come to the site? Like these are numbers that will get marketing's attention because in Red Bull's case they get 3 million applications per year. A few tens of thousands actually get hired. Those are all people that could buy Red Bull. Chad: Easily. Joel: And marketing should be aware of that and provide deals, information, whatever the brand should carry over into the application and the job seeker component to hiring people but that was a big takeaway for me. We did talk a little bit about external anonymous reviews. How those play into your brand. I was really surprised to hear, Red Bulls, Adam say that they ignore reviews. Me personally, if you're just putting your head in the sand- Chad: I know it was an arrow to your heart. Joel: It was a point of some controversy. Chad: You should have seen Joel's face when he said that. Joel: Yeah, I took it at Red Bull with wings on that one that how can you ignore 20 some review sites that are out there but his answer was very revealing to me in that he feels like to be on Glassdoor, to use Glassdoor, to engage with Glassdoor. There's sort of a payola situation. I have to pay them to delete bad reviews. I have to pay them to move certain reviews up and certain reviews down, which obviously if you talk to Glassdoor does not happen. No matter how much you pay them. You can't delete stuff. Now you probably have a better voice at Glassdoor if you're paying and you call them and say, hey, this review is a plague... or whatever, a slanderous. They'll probably listened to you much more readily. Chad: You are higher in the queue. I'm sure. Joel: They won't admit that. Chad: I'm very sure. Joel: Paying does probably get you a little bit of preferential treatment but Glassdoor to me has a real brand problem. If companies like Red Bull think that it's a payola situation and they have to pay to play and if they don't, they're going to get screwed over because that ultimately is going to be really bad for Glassdoor and by the way Glassdoor is sister companies with Indeed. If Indeed starts getting the similar reputation, which they already have on job postings. Now if the review section becomes a payola situation that's really bad for both those companies. Chad: Yeah. So there are two things here for me. First off, if that is what companies think and I guarantee you many companies think that. They feel like they have to pay to play and I think to an extent, there is a pay to play. There's no question you get more if you pay so that- Joel: You can get someone on the phone if you're writing cheque. Chad: So here's the thing, if that's the whole thought of some of these companies, right? And that's what they're getting. Then Glassdoor needs to articulate their deliverable much better than what they are today. Joel: Yes. Chad: Number one and number two, what I heard from him was there is so much noise out there as Red Bull. Glassdoor really doesn't mean that much to us because there are all these other segments that we're hitting that actually have better return. So they're big enough I think and they have a brand where they can kind of feel like that's noise whether it's wrong or right. That's how they feel. It's noise and sometimes portions of it we just have to ignore and that's what they choose to ignore. Joel: Yeah. My guess is all a lot more companies than we think take the head in the sand, ignore it strategy than we probably believe. I disagree with the strategy but it is a very real thing I'm sure. But yeah, it's similar to... You know, I've talked to many restaurants who think Yelp is the same situation. If I don't pay Yelp. I'm not on Yelp. My reviews are shit that I never come to the top. Glassdoor to me has a similar situation and they need to fix that if they're going to survive and thrive in the future. Chad: They've got to look at different ways to monetize because they have to make money. I mean, that's the reason why they're there. I mean, Job postings obviously, I mean, there are different things that they... I think they can do to be able to monetize, which they don't feel like the mafia. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: You know, you're going to break your window and then I'm going to send some guy over to fix it and then they're going to charge you for fixing your window. Joel: Yeah, we don't need any broken kneecaps in our industry. There's enough of that going on around the world. Well dude, we have a lot more show left. I think battle of the bots is coming up. Chad: I can't wait. Joel: We're going to try to get some content from that, hopefully. Otherwise I'm headed home in a couple of days. You're headed home a couple of days after that. We're going to spend some time here in Paris, so don't expect much from us in the next couple of days. It's been fun and we out. Chad: We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to, what's it called? Podcast the Chad, the Cheese. BRILLIANT! They about recruiting. They talk about technology but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know, and yet you're listening. It's incredible and not one word about Cheese but one Cheddar. Blue, Nacho, Pepper Jack, Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word, so weird anyhoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode and while you're at it visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grub cheese. It's so weird. We out. #TMP #AIA #CKR #TalentBrew #UNLEASH #Smashfly #Indeed #Glassdoor #LIVE

How does a Cult Brand lose its luster? Losing Cult Brand status and then making a comeback is not an easy task. Ellie Doty, CMO of Chili's Grill and Bar, tells a brand story that ends in a hashtag. Yes, I said a hashtag! Oh, and Cheesman sucks-up to one of his favorite eating destinations like never before. It's embarrassing. Supported by SmashFly, big believers in building relationships with brands, not jobs. Let SmashFly help tell your story and keep relationships at the heart of your CRM. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Chris Kneeland: Hi everybody. This is Chris Kneeland, the CEO of Cult Collective and the co-founder of The Gathering of Cult Brands. Excited today to introduce you to Ellie Doty. Ellie is the marketing bigwig over at Brinker International. Brinker is best known for Chili's Bar & Grill and Maggiano's, two beloved American chain restaurants. Chris Kneeland: What I love so much about Ellie is, as I've gotten to know her over the past couple of years, is she's been on a journey. Sort of migrating from more traditional advertising and marketing communications to embracing audience engagement and cult brand principles. Really using her budget, her resources, her clout, her credentials and the C suite there at Brinker to get the organization to think differently about HR issues, about products and services, about customer segmentation, and really becoming a very sophisticated marketing organization. I'm sure she's going to have a lot of great things to share with us. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I really need an old timer with cheese right about now. Hello everybody. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: I am Chad Sowash. Welcome to another installment of our cult brand series of podcasts. Joel and I are working closely with The Gathering of Cult Brands. You know, the best branding and marketing event in the world. Joel: The cult. Chad: To bring discussions around how companies become or remain cult brands. Today is a Joel Cheesman interview for the ages. Joel: That's right. We're going to be talking about meal kits from Taco Bell. Chad: Today we have Ellie Doty on. Ellie, you got to allow me to do this kind of like this bottom-up, LinkedIn kind of intro to you. Ellie was brand and fielding marketing manager at Long John Silver's. She was a senior brand manager at Taco Bell, CMO for Kentucky Fried Chicken Canada, director of marketing at KFC, big KFC, VP of marketing and culinary at Chili's, and today she is the SVP head of marketing at Chili's. Yes. Joel: We're not worthy. We're not worthy. We're not worthy. Chad: Ellie, what did we miss here? This is pretty amazing. We're going to get into this, but what did we miss? Ellie: No. You got it. You nailed the high points. I've been at Chili's for about two years now, and head up the marketing function over here. Probably the biggest part you missed was one of my favorite times which was with KFC Global out of Plano, Texas. Just an amazing experience working on KFC Global. A huge business outside of the US, so that was a really fun chapter. Joel: I used to be employed by KFC. A little known fact about me. Ellie: Really? What did you do for KFC? Chad: Chicken guy. Joel: I made Chicken Littles back in the 80s if you can believe that. Chad: Before we get into Chili's brand journey, I've got one question. Your last job was VP marketing and culinary. What in the hell? Marketing and culinary. I want to know how those two fit together? Ellie: Well, the better question, how do they not fit together? Joel: Boom. Ellie: What an exciting job that was for me there. I had never run a culinary function before, but actually at that time a new executive chef for Chili's started the same day I did in marketing on my team. We came in at a real turnaround time for Chili's, having faced several years worth of traffic declines. We faced a menu revolution that needed to happen. That's why marketing and culinary were together. Ellie: I needed to take another look from the chips and salsa and ranch, all the way to the Molten Cakes, and see is this the right menu for Chili's to have, and are we living up to our founding promises around it's a pretty simple menu. It's burgers and tacos and fajitas and margaritas and throw in some ribs. That was one of the reasons those were together at that time. What should this menu be? Joel: Hey, don't downplay ribs and chicken fingers. Let's not do that. One of the themes that we get in this series has been companies finding their why. Why do you exist? I'm wondering if you had a similar journey and what did you land on in terms of what is the WHY of Chili's and other restaurants you've worked for. Ellie: Yeah. We definitely did. At Chili's when I started I learned that there's a saying that we love each other and we like our guest. Chili's has been really into, we're really into ourselves. In fact, team members at Chili's are called Chili Heads for their devotion to the brand and the fun we have in the restaurants at the RSC. We love each other like family. It was definitely something that it's kind of the reverse problem a lot of brands see where they lack the soul and the heartbeat of meaning behind why they exist, and have to create that from the inside out. Ellie: For Chili's, on the flip side when I started the first task was tap in to what already exists, and bring the guest to that party. We did a lot of that work last year, and we're starting to see some of that show up in some of our marketing channels. We got very focused on our menu, eliminated a lot of the extra thing. In fact, we cut 40% of our menu items in the first year that I was part of the Chili's brand. Ellie: We had a really strong why around boldness and togetherness. We shorthand it Bolder Together. We're now living that, have been working on living that for the last few months. As you said, we're on the journey. We're on the journey to bring it to the guest. Chad: Does Chili's see itself as a cult brand now or are you on that journey? Does the journey stop or is it never completed? Ellie: I think the journey never stops. Chili's used to be a cult brand, I would say. Its founding principles on Greenville Avenue with a shorthand written menu and just some guys who put stuff on the menu they thought were cool, like what's a fajita? I don't know. They put a pronunciation guide on the menu. Things like that are how Chili's was founded, but I think over the course of going into 32 different countries and 1,500 restaurants, and being part of a giant, becoming a giant can sometimes take away some of those cult founding principles. Now, we have the task of how do you be mass and cult at the same time. Chad: Well, cutting 40% of the menu, I think, is genius because I know going into Chili's before it took me so long to actually find something. Then when the menu was actually cut down, it was like, "Okay. Now I know exactly what I want." It was so much quicker. For guys like Joel who actually pronounced it fajita, thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you so much. Joel: That's low. Ellie: Low blow. Yeah. Joel: Just don't get rid of the buffalo chicken sandwich anytime soon. Ellie: Yeah. That thing is delicious. Joel: Yes it is. Chad: You have what you call an MVP. Your mission, vision and passion. We saw that not just on the actual website but on the employment area of the website. When you start to take a look at your mission, your vision and your passion, that obviously starts with the employees. How do you get that ingrained into your employees? How does that start? Because that's got to be the hardest part. Ellie: The first place is actually we have Chili's-wide, brandwide cultural beliefs. There are four of them. We have four key cultural beliefs, and that's really where it starts, if we have these shared beliefs that we all buy into. We support those beliefs on a daily basis through storytelling, recognition, live experiences we create. Ellie: I'm sure you guys have heard lots of times many, many companies have recognition cards. Well ours have our cultural beliefs at the top of the card, and you recognize somebody for living that cultural belief. That's where it starts from the inside out. Then all of those cultural beliefs are backed up in every single restaurant. That's what you get recognized for in restaurant. That's what the recognition boards in the back of the restaurant say. Really I think it starts from those foundational beliefs. Joel: One of the topics that we cover on the show quite a bit that cover both employment and just branding in general is the diversity and inclusion, recruiting both people of diverse backgrounds but also having customers as such. Do you find that you've meshed those two together in terms of your advertising, or your social media to make sure that not only are you tracking a diverse customer, but also potentially diverse candidates to apply for jobs and work for Chili's? Ellie: Yes. For sure. It's incredibly important to Chili's. In fact, we believe inclusion is one of our top values. Inclusiveness in our workforce, inclusiveness in our dining rooms. That's a journey that we're always on. One that we're working on right now is just one of the foundational reasons people love to come to Chili's, is because in their words they say it's a "come as you are" kind of place. Ellie: Whoever you're with, whatever you were doing right before, however your kids act, you're welcome at Chili's. Kick back. Let your hair down. Have a good time. Joel: That's what I'm talking about. That's why I wear sweatpants every time I go to Chili's. Ellie: You're welcome to. Chad: That's why I eat in the bar, so I don't have to hear your kids yelling. Back to the MVP real quick. Mission is awesome. Delivering burgers 'Ritas, fajitas, that's for Joel, and 'Ritas like no place else. The vision, Chili's Love by 2020. What is Chili's Love exactly? Ellie: Chili's Love is a, well, it started as a hashtag on Twitter, and it is one that we started really in our people channel, so our team members or people who are Chili Heads really start saying #chilislove to whatever they tweet about what we're doing. Interestingly saw it really catch on. We can't really put marketing efforts behind it. We didn't try to make it into a thing. Our guests started to latch on to this, and so then they would tag themselves with #chilislove. Ellie: We said, you know, we need to make this true. We need to make it go beyond a hashtag, and just that people are wanting this from us. Our guests are rooting for us, and they want us to show up in a #chilislove kind of way. We set that as our vision. Well, we really want that. Instead of our vision being something like a sales revenue goal, or a number of restaurants we've built goal, what if it was a love goal? Chad: That started grassroots from your employees and then it actually stemmed out to the guests. Ellie: Yes. It was one of those fun things where you tap into something people really, it's sort of inadvertently, but that they want you to do. Now we make a pretty significant effort not to start too many new hashtags. Chad: Well, that actually ties into your passion, making people feel special. Obviously people who are feeling special are going to use a hashtag. They wouldn't be using a hashtag any other way, right? Ellie: Right. Right. Hopefully not. I guess they could. We're hoping they do though. If you're feeling Chili's Love, you're feeling special. Chad: We'll get back to the interview in a minute. Building a brand isn't easy, which is why you need people like Thom Kenney, CEO of SmashFly on your side. Joel: Thom, there are a lot of companies out there that are small. What do you tell those companies that say, "We're too small to worry about having a cult brand from an employment perspective"? Thom Kenney: I'd say do you know how many people WhatsApp had when they got acquired by Facebook? 13. Now if that's not a small company, they got a billion-dollar valuation and a billion-dollar acquisition. They know how important it is to have that cult brand mentality. Nobody really understood just how few employees there were with WhatsApp, but look at the following that they had. Look at what they created. They did it mostly because they had really great people. They didn't need a ton of great people. They just needed a really good core team. Thom Kenney: When WhatsApp and 13 people is thinking about, "Well, you know what, I need one more engineer," that cult brand of WhatsApp is like that one engineer, they've one engineering position, they've probably got 10,000 applicants just for that one engineering position. If you think you're too small, then you're probably too small to really get big anyway, because you're thinking small. Thom Kenney: If you think big and you think about what do I need to do to create that critical mass that I need in the market to be able to have a really, really great product or service. If I'm creating that cult brand for me, just think of what that's going to do for my recruiting. Chad: To find out more, go to smashfly.com. Joel: I feel the Chili's Love every time I'm there. You guys have embraced technology for quite a while now. I know that you guys were one of the first national chains to embrace the kiosk at the table, ordering from this kiosk, giving your kids games to play while you're waiting for your extra chips and salsa refresh to be brought to you. How does technology play into the brand as a whole, maybe from an employments perspective, social media? You guys have really embraced technology early on, and how do you look to use that now? Maybe what platforms are you seeing for the future as being a really hot Tik Tok in the future of your marketing strategy? Ellie: Tech and tech innovation are a key priority of ours. It's if you named of three or four things that are really important at Chili's, that's definitely hits that shortlist. As you said, we did get out ahead of the curve. Some of the things that I would mention that you didn't in terms of marketing are around we really made some pretty significant shifts away from mass marketing in mass channels, and into much more personalized ways to interact with our brand. Ellie: As an example, we've pretty dramatically increased our commitment to CRM and loyalty programs. Ours is called My Chili's Rewards, and every time you use it or identify you get free chips and salsa, or a free NA bev. It's super simple. Moved away from any kind of complicated point systems and made sure that our guests felt special every time they let us know that they were there. Ellie: We also pay a lot of attention to our online ordering, our OLO platform, so that it's as frictionless as it can possibly be. We're pretty proud of our app development and web ordering development. In fact, 60% of our orders come through those channels now, which is great. That's where we want them to be. Our guests have amazing experiences there. We get rave reviews on it. Ellie: We stay out ahead of that. In fact we've just launched that favorites option, so that if you've ordered from us before you can click it, and all your favorites with your preferences go into your basket. That's all it takes. One of the beautiful things about Chili's is that you can customize everything, get it just exactly the way you want it. That also means it can take a little while to order it if you want to customize it every time. Now we can remember it for you, no worries. You get your same order. Joel: Will I be able to say, "Hey, Alexa. Bring me Chili's tonight," and it'll bring me my favorite from Chili's? Is that coming soon? Ellie: I'm sure someday that will be true. That's not something that's happening right now. Voice ordering, it's going to happen. Joel: Fingers crossed. Chad: Joel wants to walk into a Chili's, have his face recognized, and by the time he walks over to the table he has his meal ordered. That's what Joel wants. Joel: Joel just wants Chili's to move in with me, so I don't have to leave the house ever. Chad: Back to the tech. When that first came out, yeah, it was great for the kids to play games. It was great for the actual customer, I think. What about for the employees? What about for the individual who's waiting, serving on the table? Is that something that they embraced, or did it take a little time for them to really gel with the technology on the table? Ellie: No. For the most part it's embraced. It's got a number of benefits for the servers. I think one of the biggest benefits to mention is we get real-time feedback from the guests on how their experience was. That makes it a lot easier to make them feel special in a really detailed way. If you don't have that technology, the way we were before, and a way, I know, some of our competitors are, is you have to count on people to contact you either through a phone call or otherwise on their receipt. That way you just really don't get enough or detailed enough information. We value a lot the amount of info we get about the experience that people have. Ellie: We are able to improve and train our servers on the basis of that feedback. For example, if we have a lot of guests with a problem for a certain shift at a certain time, we're able to coach against what might have been going on. What was causing those problems, and really improve that shift to shift to shift. The other thing it does that's really cool is you can pay right at the table. That's a great benefit for the guest and for the server, because the server spends a lot of time walking those checks back and forth. Chad: I bet. Ellie: They don't have to do that. Chad: We'll get back to the interview in a minute, but first a quick question for Chris Kneeland about The Gathering of Cult Brands. Chris, why is The Gathering of Cult Brands so important? Chris Kneeland: Well, because these are stories that I don't think are being told. If you look at just the marketing and advertising space much less the traditional HR or employee engagement space, we're just not telling the right kinds of stories. We don't have the right kinds of role models. The Academy Awards for the marketing industry is probably the Cannes Festival. That's just this celebration of creativity. It's not tethered to business performance. It's not tethered to audience engagement. It's just tethered to who had a good fun idea. We see that as rampant in the marketing industry. Chris Kneeland: What we wanted to do was to find a platform where brands who are doing the right things for the right reasons. You know what, they may not even be advertisers. Costco, Kiehl's, Lululemon, brands like this don't ever go to those other kinds of shows, because they're not telling creative paid media campaigns and they're not doing Super Bowl commercials. This is their home and the chance for them to get the recognition they deserve. Chad: Register now at cultgathering.com. Joel: Restaurants have a unique situation where most of the people that interview there, a customer there as well. How much direct contact or activity do you have with the recruiting process to make sure that when someone interviews at Chili's they don't have a bad experience and say, "I'm never going back to Chili's. I'm going to tell my friends that I had a bad interview at Chili's"? For example, do you give coupons for anyone who interviews, saying, "Thank you for your time. Please come back and enjoy a free app on us," or something like that? Ellie: I don't know the answer to that specific question about if we give anybody anything for interviewing. However, I will say that we have a whole program, it's called Higher Train Retain, and it's a 360 program around our branded interview process, hiring process, and retaining process. It all works together in terms of the value proposition we're bringing to our employees. Ellie: We happen to work in a category where hundreds of thousands of people have at one point or another worked there. How the Chili Heads or former Chili Heads or possible Chili Heads feel about the brand is big. It's a sizable group of people. We not only want to make the guests feel special, but we do want to make all of our Chili Heads feel special too. It's a strength of ours. Ellie: We definitely pay a lot of attention to ensuring their experiences are great. One recent piece of headway we made there was around the first week training. We got a lot more prescriptive about what happens in the first week for somebody being hired, because that's when they are at the highest risk of having a bad experience at a Chili's. If you just imagine you start on a Friday night and you get thrown in to dish, you don't know what you're doing. You're not sure who these people are. You're not going to get any tips that night. It's not a great first-off experience, but sometimes that's what happens because it's Friday night and it's busy. We just take a much more thoughtful approach to how you start off on your first day, first week. Chad: Do you have a team that manages that process? Because I would assume, I mean how many franchises do you have out there? Ellie: We're by and large company owned. We own most of our restaurants. It's about 25% franchise owned. That's held by three big owners. Chad: Got you. I think here in Columbus, Indiana, where I live is actually a franchise. I could be wrong. Do you have somebody that actually manages those franchises to ensure that they have the same brand standards? Because I would assume that would be a little bit harder to manage the brand and the experience and obviously the Chili Heads and everything like that, to be able to seem like one family. Ellie: It is. It is. Of course, across the thousand restaurants that we own, that Chili's runs and operates we are able to make sure that we are living up to those standards in all thousand of those restaurants. In our franchise restaurants, we do have coaching and support teams to help ensure they are aware of and know how to use all the programs, are deploying them where they can. We make custom versions of them if they need them based on what their business dynamics are. Joel: Employee reviews are something that we talk about on the show quite a bit. I know in your line of work Yelp reviews, Google reviews, anywhere people are spouting off about the company as a customer, good or bad, is something that I'm sure you keep your thumb on to make sure that people are having a good experience, and that you're engaging with those folks. Joel: Do you pay much attention to the employer side of reviews? I think that we're seeing a little bit of the two bleeding together with social media and particularly video in the format of Instagram, Snapchat, and Tik Tok where employees even are going on and talking about the secrets of the company, what it's like to work there, why you would or wouldn't want to work there. Is that something that you guys are conscious of? If so, how are you managing and monitoring that? Ellie: It is something we're conscious of. I will say we don't spend a lot of our energies around the employee reviews, just because we're pretty focused on the guest. We have our own internal channels to hear from our employees. Usually we hear the bulk of what we need to from our employees through those channels. It's not a main source of information on public channels. Ellie: We love for our teams to post about their Chili's experiences. However, if they're having a challenge we have channels for them to reach out to us directly to address what might be going on. We do have some social media policies around how we engage on the Chili's brand, whether we work for the brand or we're posting on behalf of the brand. Chad: What kind of advice would you give a company looking to start this cult brand journey? It's ominous as it is to be able to take a look at even a small organization, but a big organization, and say, "How in the heck do I eat this elephant?" What bite should they take first? Ellie: I think it all starts with knowing who you are. At Chili's that's been one of the challenges over the course of the last, say, decade or so. Who are we and where did we start, and how is that relevant today? It may sound super-obvious to say who are we in that way, but I have had some super-smart people to say if a brand is losing its way, look back to look forward. I believe that was a Coca-Cola- Chad: That's good. Ellie: Yeah. I think that came from Coke. It's a good one. It's a good source. That's what we did at Chili's is look back to look forward. I think sometimes when I was coming on board at Chili's and learning about our past efforts, especially with a 45-year-old brand there's hardly anything that hasn't been tried before. It's not about a new idea. It's about new days, new people, a new way of looking at it. Ellie: In this case there had been a number of different, "Oh, we're going to find our brand. We're going to know who we are." It was by being that thing over there. We're going to go become something else. Unfortunately, just as with human beings you're never going to be a world-class version of something else. You're only going to be a world-class version of who you are. Ellie: Who you are as a brand, even if there's some aspects of it that seem like, "Well, that's not really relevant today," it's a huge mistake to go undo your greatest strengths to try to address your greatest weakness. That's one from KFC. The biggest criticism of KFC is that everything is fried. Well, yeah. Hell yeah, everything's fried at KFC. Joel: You say that like it's a bad thing. Ellie: Saying it like it's a bad thing. No. If you undo everything is fried, you undo one of the greatest strengths. I think this effort that we're making right now at Chili's is really about uncovering and living the real truth of the brand, first and foremost. Joel: The gig economy is real. We talk about it a lot on the show. One of the latest numbers was by 2021 or 2 or 3 maybe 40 million Americans will be employed by the gig economy. I know that you guys embrace things like DoorDash and Uber Eats and basically contracting out the delivery of your food. Inevitably more and more of your employees will be contract or gig workers. Do you think about that? Is there a strategy around protecting the brand and the brand experience and using gig or contract workers to come in? Is it something that you think Chili's will stay away from in the Ellie: No. We're actually having at the moment a great experience with DoorDash. A little over a month ago we entered into an inclusive arrangement with DoorDash, so we're only with them now. We have learned and our restaurants have learned that you want to be a brand of choice for dashers. In that gig economy there's all kinds of clients at play. We actually strive hard to help our restaurants learn how to be a great client to a dasher and how dashers are parts of our teams in a lot of ways. We seek to make them feel special too. Ellie: In that way, you have this influence over the brand experience that's created by the dasher. I also think a couple of years ago there were all these conversations at restaurant chains about what happens with the food between the time it leaves the restaurant to the time it gets to the guest. You want to be able to control what that experience is like. Today our guests are so accustomed to in this situation, they get it. They know what a dasher is. They know that they've carried the food from the restaurant, so they understand the dynamics at play here. Ellie: We have less concern over, not less concern over the quality of our food, but we feel confident that we can share, that we can make ourselves a great partnership with our dashers, so that we can all be part of a great guest experience at the end. Even if we're partnered together to get it done. Joel: You could see a day where a restaurant would partner inclusively for workers to come in and work, so that they know that the brand is safe and that there's a relationship there, as opposed to multiple services delivering contract workers? Ellie: Yeah. It could be. A lot of our workers participate in the gig economy too. They work at Chili's. They drive an Uber. Maybe they're a dasher. Many of our guests also participate in the gig economy. We have a target, our tribe we call it, our target guests of families, and we know that almost all of them have some kind of side gig of one kind or another. Nobody's just doing one single thing anymore. Knowing it's our guests, it's our team members, it's the people we partner with, everybody's part of this gig economy today. Chad: Just another reason why you want and need to be a cult brand, right? Ellie: Yeah. That's exactly right. Chad: Well, Ellie, thank you so much for taking the time today. Again, Ellie Doty, head of marketing at Chili's talking more about the journey to becoming a cult brand, and back to being a cult brand. We appreciate it. We had a great time. Thanks Ellie. Ellie: Thanks. Joel: Bless you for the work you do every day, Ellie. Chad: Bless you. Joel: Thank you. Ellie: You bet. Go get some Crispers. Joel: Yeah. We out. Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors, because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah. You're welcome. #Chilis #CultBrandSeries #CultBrands #Brand #EmployerBrand #EmploymentBrand #Marketing #Automation

Ed Sayson is a TA leader at ARC Document Systems. Yeah, sounds kinda boring, but hold on, the company is a drone trendsetter. By employing a lot of drone jockeys (not sure what they're called officially, and driver sounds like a UPS worker), they're able to crush the competition and gain a strategic advantage. And if you think hiring for such an army is easy, think again, as Ed reveals all his tricks and tips in the exclusive interview from Jobvite's Recruiter Nation Live event from San Francisco. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire. Chad: Here's another selection Joel and I recorded live from San Francisco at Jobvite's Recruiter Nation Live. We had a chance to catch up with talent acquisition leaders, turn on the mics and talk drones. Hell yeah. Drones. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: We're back, live from Recruiter Nation Live. That sounds a little redundant, doesn't it? Chad: RNL. Joel: RNL? Chad: RN Live, RNL like SNL, but RNL. Joel: Jobvite's RNL '19 coming at you with another live interview. Chad: 2019 live review from San Francisco in the Parc 55. Parc with a C by the way, not a K. Joel: Lovely part of town. Chad: Yeah, I don't know how that happened. So we have Ed Sayson? Joel: Sayson? Chad: Sayson? Edward: Sayson. Joel: Sayson. Chad: Sayson. I like Sayson, but we'll go with Sayson. Joel: Sayson's kind of cool. Chad: It's just a last name, yeah. Edward: It's French. It's French. Sayson is Swedish. Chad: Okay. Swedish. Joel: I can tell already this guy is way smarter than we are. Chad: That doesn't take much. Joel: I'm a little nervous. Chad: Does not take much. Joel: So you're with ARC. Chad: I am. ARC Documents Solutions. Joel: All right. For our listeners and us, what's the company do? What do you do? Edward: Well, first of all, let me answer your first question about what ARC is. ARC Documents Solutions is a 30-year old publicly traded company that is known now as the largest provider of wide format printing to the architects, engineering, and construction industry. We're also the largest network of drone pilots. Think of us as the Uber of drones. Chad: Do what? You're the largest number of drone pilots? Joel: Ed just blew my mind. He went from paper to drone pilots. Edward: That's right. Chad: Wow. How do you spin into something like that? Edward: Well this is why we're talking, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: He sets you up with the soft stuff and then unloads drone pilot on you. Chad: Wow. Edward: We serve the needs of our clients in the AEC industry. Originally, started with their needs to print information and then we started managing the print services for some of the largest AEC companies with a global footprint. Chad: Yeah. Edward: They're not going to run every revision of their blueprint down to the corner print stores. Chad: Right, right, right. Edward: So they're going to try to set up print themselves and we come in and manage it because they don't know what they're doing. And we realize that they also have needs to improve productivity. Like every time a project manager needs to go out and take pictures and measure so he can send up a project status report, we said, "Why don't you let us take care of that too?" Edward: So we created this network of drone pilots and now we are the Uber of drones for the AEC world. That's just one of the other things that we do besides print. Joel: What's a day in the life of a drone pilot look like? Edward: I have no idea, because I'm not one. Chad: I was going to say, do they sit in a conex like in Vegas? Joel: Or in grandma's basement? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Like unloading armies of drones throughout the world. Edward: I imagine it's more like the Air Force drone pilots who are in between missions. They send up another drone for ARC for construction project status reports. Chad: How many drones are we talking about here? You really have me interested now, jeez. Chad: We're talking probably over 150,000 drone pilots. Chad: No way! Joel: Pilots? Chad: Yeah, the drone pilots. Chad: Drone pilots. Joel: Holy shit. Is this global? Chad: I love this shit. Edward: Yeah, it's global. Joel: Or is this just in the US? Edward: Well, most of it is in the US. But it's because there was a need to shorten the way in which the project managers would have to write their status reports on the building project. Chad: Okay, so when did the drones start to come into play and how easy is it to find drone pilots now? Other than going straight to the military and just trying to pull them as soon as they come out? Edward: Well, the FAA has a certification program to get a drone license. It's called FAA 107. So we just go to that report and go enlist these. Chad: Oh, so they have a list? Edward: Yeah, there's a list of drone... Chad: There's a list. Edward: As long as you have a drone license, it's like truck drivers, right? Chad: Yeah. Edward: Everybody's looking for a commercial, A license or C license, and you just go get those people and say, "How'd you like to be part of that network?" Chad: So your own network? Joel: So you're 150,000 now, how many are you adding say in the next year or two years? Edward: You know, I have no idea. Joel: This is a growth industry. Edward: It is like the Uber of drones. Chad: Oh yeah. Holy crap. Edward: You need a drone? Call ARC. That's just one of the things we do. Joel: I want to hear about Ed a little bit. Because he's blown our mind with drones. Let's hear more about you and your recruiting past. Edward: So I am now the talent acquisition leader for the company. Chad: Okay. Edward: I oversee all recruiting and talent acquisition. I have a 25-year track record of recruiting. I had my own executive search practice for over 10 years where I did retain searches for other private companies. Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative). Edward: I've also been in-house with companies like Commerce One, which was one of the first eCommerce companies in the Bay area. I was in charge of all of their global talent acquisition. I ran recruiting and employment for the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, where we recruited all kinds of scientists and researchers. Joel: So unlike 90% of this room, you've actually placed a five-line newspaper ad at some point in your life? Edward: At some point early when I said I would never do print and who am I working for now? Joel: Right, right. Edward: Then I've done startups. So after I sold my medical staffing business, which I thought healthcare was where you wanted to be at. I did that for six years, sold it on the peninsula and came back to the East Bay where I live and got hired by ARC two years ago and I got rid of their ATS system and brought in Jobvite. Chad: Really? So you got rid of their applicant tracking system because it was a piece of shit. Why did you get rid of it? Joel: What were they using before Jobvite? Edward: Well, they were using an archaic product when I say archaic, it was probably third generation. Whereas we can consider Jobvite to be fourth generation. Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative). Edward: It was just not meeting the needs of how we needed to recruit in today's economy. I was looking for a product that had marketing capabilities, CRM capabilities, and had a very easy user interface. Edward: So I scoured the market, looked at the Gartner Magic Quadrant Report, and Jobvite was on there. And I did a shootout with a whole bunch of others and ended up selecting Jobvite. Chad: And that was two years ago? Edward: Two years ago, yeah. Chad: Two years ago. So tell us, obviously the big acquisition that happened, all these new players that are a part of this. How does this affect how ARC is going to be using technology moving forward? Because it's almost like an embedded tech stacker. Edward: I'm glad you asked because I was already in touch with all of those three companies before I read that they were acquired by Jobvite. So it just made me really happy that we are eventually going to see an integrated product that I can access from one platform. Edward: We were already introduced to Canvas for texting, by Jobvite. When we asked for it, they said "We happen to have a product." And it was a bolt-on at the time. So we're now using that to communicate with candidates. Edward: I was looking for an employee referral program and I was talking to RolePoint. In fact, I even got some of their swag when I read they were acquired by Jobvite. Joel: Do you remember what the swag was? Edward: Yeah, it was a couple of mugs, it was t-shirt that said "employee referral action hero" or something like that. Joel: It's not often people remember the swag that they get from a vendor. So I was curious what was it? Chad: Swag is making a comeback though. Joel: It is making come back and we're helping drive that. Chad: Yes, we are. We're doing our damnedest. Edward: So swag is good because all of the vendors today are offering swag that they are asking us all to take. Otherwise they have to ship it back home. Chad: That's right, yeah. And the only way that you're going to take it is if it's good swag. Edward: That's right. Chad: So all you vendors out there, get the good swag. Don't be playing with that nasty, cheap stuff. Edward: No plastic cheap stuff, yeah. Chad: So you've been around a long time, what are some of the most effective marketing platforms or strategies that you're currently using to engage with candidates? Edward: Well, a lot of people in marketing have developed what's called demand generation marketing. Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative). Edward: Part of that includes email content that's different that gets sent to people who have been on the website at one point or another, ads that show up whenever they type in a particular keyword on a website or on their browser. So the same thing can be applied to recruiting, because recruiting is all about selling the company. We're salespeople, so we should also have marketing to create that demand. Edward: So when I looked at what Engage was inside Jobvite, I was thrilled. That allows us to do email drip marketing, which I use internally and externally. It also has a very robust capability for reports. Anytime I spend money, I have to show the value of that investment and Jobvite has great reporting capabilities. Chad: So are you working with marketing at all to be able to pull all this together? Edward: Yes I am, but when you're not on the product side, you take a back seat whenever a new priority comes in. Chad: Right. Edward: Let me give you an example. I went to my boss and said we need to rebrand our employee referral program. Every company says they have an employee referral program. Chad: Right. Edward: They'll pay for referrals, but unless you keep it alive with a personality and market it properly to your employees... Chad: Any product, right? Edward: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. Edward: So I went to marketing and I had already spoken to the CFO about it. So the CFO gave me blessing and then marketing heard that CFO wanted to do this. So they put me at the top of their priority list. They came up with a wonderful website, they came up with collateral, they came up with props. Edward: Today, we just launched this rebranded employee referral incentive program, which I rebranded as TRIP, T-R-I-P. Talent Referral Incentive Program. It's a play on words, because at the end of the 12-month period of this new trip program... Chad: You get to take a trip. Edward: We have a lottery for a trip. Joel: I'm feeling some upcoming swag of this trip promotion. Edward: Yeah. Chad: Yes. Edward: So the trip is a lottery, but every time you refer a candidate to me, you get a ping pong ball with your name put into the the lottery bin. Chad: I love it. Edward: And we give you a $5 gift card for just giving the email as a thank you. And then once we hire your referral, you get X thousand dollars. Chad: Excellent. So how does RolePoint actually help you with this whole process? Edward: Well, RolePoint Was going to provide me with their website and their swag and the marketing collateral. But my marketing team already developed it so I didn't have to go to RolePoint. Chad: Gotcha. Edward: But the marketing team did it as a one-time effort for me for this launch. Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative). Edward: I don't think I'm going to have the same visibility next year, so I'm going to need something like RolePoint to keep this personality of the program going. Joel: Are referrals your number one source of traffic and candidate? Edward: Not today, but it should be. Joel: What is number one? Edward: Number one has been the career site and our job boards through JobTarget, which is another function of Jobvite. Chad: Another vendor that's actually here, JobTarget. Edward: That's right. Chad: Wave at the guys at JobTarget. Joel: What are some other sort of top ways that you're driving and engaging with candidates? Edward: Boomerang employees. We've gone after people who have left and we've been able to bring back a couple. Joel: So tactically, how are you doing that? Edward: We just approach them and tell them what a great company it is today. And of course the company has done well. Joel: Say we have drones now. Edward: Yeah. Joel: You might want to come back and check it out. Chad: Yeah. Are you thinking about getting your drone pilots license? That's good shit. Edward: No, I don't think so. I actually had at one time a private pilot's license and I don't think I could ever sit and fly a drone through a screen once you've been up in the air yourself. Joel: Obviously we've talked about job Jobvite adding features to its platform. What are some features that you'd like to see in the next two, three years added to the platform? Edward: I'd like to see a single platform where I don't have to go to so many things like a Chrome extension just to get the text feature. I don't have to sign on to Telemetry's platform. Chad: So a unified platform? Edward: A unified platform, right. Chad: So you don't have to have all these browsers open. Edward: That's correct. Joel: One platform to rule them all. Edward: That's right. Joel: Edward, thanks for your time and sitting down with us today. For people who want to know about you or your company, where would you send them? Edward: I'd send them to our website. It's dubdubdub.e-arc.com. Joel: Thanks Edward. Edward: Have a good one. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. Announcer: For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #drones #Jobvite #Canvas #Rolepoint #Talemetry #RNL2019

Falls is here and the leaves may be dropping, but it's nothing to the news-breaking and the knowledge-droppin' that's going down on The Chad & Cheese Podcast this week. So what happened? Glad you asked. TMP / AIA made another acquisition LinkedIn puts Meetup / Eventbrite in the crosshairs RigUp breaks the bank Cannabis jobs are growing like, um, a weed Talroo gets integrated ... and what show would be complete without some Indeed rumors? Enjoy, and write our sponsors - JobAdx, Sovren, and Canvas - a blank check while you're at it. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your bridge to the disability community, delivering custom solutions in outreach, recruiting, talent management and compliance.​ Tengai: Hi, this is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I love these guys. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Chad: Hello. Joel: Waxing chumps like a candle since 2017. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous and soon to be biggest groups of whinos. France here we come. I'm your cohost, Joel Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad Getting-On-A-Plane Sowash. Joel: On a jet plane. On this week's episode, LinkedIn connects with its inner Meetup. TMP carves out more market share and opportunities in the cannabis industry are growing like a weed. Chad: Woo! Joel: See what I did there, Chad? Chad: [crosstalk 00:01:10] Joel: Anything less than the best is a felony, we'll be right back after this quick word from Sovren. Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Sovren: We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it dinner. Joel: Shout outs with a brand new invention. Can you believe how old that song is now? Chad: God, stop aging us. Joel: Sorry, sorry. Chad: I'm already down because I'm down a Peepers. Joel: Explain to people who the hell Peepers is because it sounds like a strip show or strip club. Chad: Is your dog. So Mr. Peepers is your dog. You were gone last long weekend, you dropped the little guy off here. I have three dogs, girl dogs, and they just had a blast. We always enjoy having Peepers around. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Took the family on fall break to paradise, also known as Cleveland, Ohio. Had a grand old time at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Many people don't know this, but A Christmas Story was largely filmed in Cleveland and the house that's in the movie is in Cleveland and it has since been turned into a museum. The Bumpus' house next door is now a hotel where you can stay overnight there. Chad: The Bumpus'. Joel: Across the street is a garage with the firetruck when Flick got stuck to the fire pole, or the flagpole. So the firetruck from that is there and also the car that the family drove where the tire gets flat and Ralphie says "Oh, fudge." Chad: That wasn't quick "fudge." Joel: So yeah, the kids enjoyed it, we did some other things. Peepers had some fun with your bitches there. Chad: Yeah. Well, he understands that when he comes here he's apart of the pack and he has to listen to them. Because if you fuck with one of them, you fuck with all three of them and no guy wants that kind of shit. So he's great. Joel: Where's his place in the pack there? Is he at the bottom? Because I feel like he beats up Amber enough that he leaps frogs her. Chad: Yeah, but that's playing and they all kind of gang up on each other every now and again. But he knows better. He's a smart dude. He's like, "Yeah, I'm going to have some fun here, but I'm not going to take it too far." Joel: I don't know about smart, but anyone, someone who is smart, our buddy Jamie Leonard from Recfest was sporting a Chad and Cheese t-shirt while doing a presentation down in Australia, I believe, this week. Chad: Yeah, I think it's got to be one of his favorite t-shirts. I'm going to have to send him another half dozen or so, because every time I see a picture, not every time but most of the time, he has a Chad and Cheese t-shirt on. So I'm going to have to make sure we get him stocked up. Chad: Along with Martine Radcliffe who is the VP of TA over at American Cancer Society. It was great meeting her at HR Tech, and she was one of those "I have to have a t-shirt" people. So she's wearing it, she's enjoying it, she's LinkedIn and tweeting about it. So you're welcome Martine and thanks for listening. Joel: Yeah, Martine was one of these nuts that actually went to both of our sessions at HR Tech. That's how fanatical she is about the show. Chad: Love it. Love it. Joel: So Martine, thanks for the fanatical behavior. Chad: Exactly. So how do you say, Muir? Is it Muir? How do you say that? That's probably an English name but not an American name. Is it Muir McDonald? Joel: Well, it's got to be some Scottish-Irish mashup. Chad: Okay, I love it. Joel: McDonald I get, I could pronounce that. Chad: That's too easy, yeah. Joel: Yeah, give us a shout and let us know how to pronounce that name. Muir McDonald. Chad: M-U-I-R. There you go. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Put us number one on his HR podcast list, so we appreciate that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Shout out to him. Chad: Love that. Along with, this is very, very interesting, Recruiting Future Podcast with Matt Alder and Talent Cast with James Ellis. A little tease, something very interesting happening with all of those three podcasts, so stay tuned. Joel: It's getting kind of hectic people. Shout out to my mom on a little somber note. I'm just going to throw her in here. She's having a rough go in the health department. She's had replacement knees, one replacement hip. One of her knees acted up this week, she had to go under the knife to get that fixed, and then woke up this morning with pneumonia, so she's back in the ER. Joel: So mom, shout out to you. As soon as I'm off this podcast I'm going to come down and say hi and hopefully lift your spirits. But man, she's on a losing streak. So if you're out there, just send some good vibes to Mama Becky. Chad: Good vibes to mom please. My God, man. So big shout out to Louise Triance for pulling together a great Chad and Louise show with Thomas Prince from Talent Nexus. It was all focused on programmatic job advertising, why you should be thinking about programmatic, how to get things moving in programmatic, all that other fun stuff. Chad: The only way you would've seen it is if you had subscribed to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. We put it in our RSS feed but we do some little special things for people who are already subscribed. So if you haven't subscribed, go to ChadCheese.com, click on the subscribe button or just pull out your app that you currently watch podcasts in, type in the Chad and Cheese Podcast and subscribe. You'll get all the cool stuff that the other kids don't get. Joel: Does Louise have some blackmail on you? This is your twentieth webinar with her. Then I can't imagine you would do that that many times unless someone had some dirt on you. Chad: Yeah, she's just a sweetheart. Not to mention, it's great from an EU expansion. They like to have a little dumb American every now and again, so I fit that bill. Joel: Yeah, by the way, didn't they figure out Brexit this week? I've been kind of out of the loop in Cleveland. It seems like I read that they got their act together on that. Chad: We've got enough shit on our side of the pond to fucking worry about let along that, right? Chad: Some Indeed rumors real quick. Joel: Oh. Everybody loves those. Chad: Yeah. We won't go deep into it, because we're still tracking down some data and speaking with some sources, but the prospect of the Search Quality team is they're starting surface again. If you don't know, the Search Quality team is... Joel: They're the party poopers. Chad: They're like the Black Ops team that's just going to shut down your shit. Right? So if you have organic traffic, all that free traffic, when they come in and you hear "Search Quality team," with regard to your jobs, what's going to happen is your shit's going to get shut down. And the only way that you're going to get any traffic from Indeed moving forward, is to pay for that traffic. This is what I like to call, personally, a scam. Joel: A shake down. Chad: Yeah, a scam that they've been running very successfully. They did it with job boards. job boards came in, gave them a ton of content, they got a bunch of free traffic and then Indeed shut it down and started saying, "Hey, look, the only way that you're going to be able to get traffic from us, since now you're on the heroin drip, is to pay for it." Joel: Yeah. Chad: They did the same with staffing companies. Exact same thing. Now, they're looking for different actual corporate companies or service providers or what have you that they can do this with. So now that the search quality team isn't focused on staffing anymore, they're looking for you possibly, Mr. Talent Acquisition Professional, Mrs. Talent Acquisition Professional. So I think right now is a very good time to look at diversifying the traffic that's coming into your website. Joel: You may want to embrace Google For Jobs if you're not currently doing so. Joel: By the way, it always reminds me of the scene in Kindergarten Cop when he's an actual cop and he breaks into the party and they're like, "Who are you?" And he's like, "I'm the party pooper." That's the quality control group at Indeed. The party poopers. Chad: Easily and if you're not doing programmatic advertising to be able to try to look for exit strategies on how to get the fuck away from having Indeed being pretty much all of the eggs in one basket for all your traffic, that's what you need to start doing. You need to start looking at the nice Indeed and the Neuvoo, that's how you say it. Neuvoo. Joel: Neuvoo. Chad: Yeah, and [Zunas 00:10:28], the Talroos, all these different organizations you need to start looking at. And I know that makes it hard, you and I have talked about this before, what's the role of an advertising agency today. This is one of the staples and one of the reasons why you should be working with an advertising agency. Joel: It's time to wipe away the party pooper, because it stinks folks. Sorry I couldn't resist. Chad: That was pretty bad. That was pretty bad. Joel: It was all right, it wasn't too bad. Chad: Okay, so one last one, I'm going to throw this one in there. You did mom, I'm going to throw in... Joel: Oh, a curve ball. Chad: A curve ball, yeah. So Shout out to my wife, Julie Sowash. She was actually in Plano, Texas yesterday, where she was actually brought in by the OFCCP, for my understanding, for a best practices session. Her company, Disability Solutions, actually works very closely with PepsiCo, one of their clients. And they presented together about how they've been able to actually hire over 15,000 individuals with disabilities into Pepsi alone. This is big for the OFCCP because they're like, holy shit, companies are actually doing this and they're not doing it in onesie, twosies. Chad: She actually has three legs of her trip, but what she's doing today is she's in San Francisco with SmartRecruiters doing a reverse recruiting event, where at the end of the event they're going to have 50 individuals with disabilities that are hopefully going to be matched up with companies who have jobs and then those additional people get jobs. Again, that's a SmartRecruiters event, so good on SmartRecruiters. Chad: The big shout out here is we talk about a lot of shit that's really cool from a tech standpoint, but impact and outcomes are what we should always be focused on and organizations that are helping individuals actually get fucking jobs is what really matters overall. So she's literally changing the world and that means a lot. Joel: Do she get free Cheetos for working with Pepsi? Chad: Fritos, I think. Maybe Cheetos, possibly. Joel: Oh, Fritos. I thought Cheetos was a PepsiCo product. Chad: They might be, I don't know. Joel: Fritos definitely is. You're right. Chad: So yeah, we're flying. Joel: Dude, I'm so pumped to go to France for Unleash. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Arguably the best conference this month. I don't want to piss anybody off. Many people consider it the top conference in the world for this thing that we do called recruitment. Chad: And we've never been to it. Have you ever been to it? Joel: We've never been. Chad: I've never been. Joel: Never been. Paris in October, although it does look rainy and cold. Should be nice. Chad: Yeah. Joel: My wife is joining me, as I think yours is you. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We're going to get a little vacation time as well as business. You guys know how that works. Definitely looking forward to it. Chad: Yeah, so Unleash World in Paris, France, brought to you by Chad and Cheese brought to you by SmashFly. Joel: SmashFly. Chad: SmashFly. Joel: Have you got your swag yet? Chad: Yeah. No, I got my swag. The ball cap's awesome, got the t-shirt. Joel: I do love the cap. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: The cap's good. Chad: Yeah, you know Josh, JZ, had something to do with that fucking ball cap because he's like a ball cap fiend. Joel: Well, I hope he had something to do with the old style snap sizer on the back, because you don't see those too often anymore. Chad: Yeah, exactly. October 22, coming next week at 11:45 Paris time, we're going to be on the influencer stage with Chris Ray, group head of recruitment at Sainsbury's, Adam Yearsley, global head of talent management at Red Bull, and also Brandi Ellis, head of recruitment marketing strategy at the SmashFly. Chad: We've got a pretty awesome crew that's going to be up there and were going to be talking about why pretty much most company's recruitment branding sucks, why the experience sucks and the impact on the actual big brand itself. Chad: We don't talk enough about talent, and that's what we're trying to do with our Cult Brand series of podcasts; is we have to understand in talent acquisition how big of a role we play in bottom line, in everything, in big business, and we need to better articulate to the C-suite that without us, you're fucking dead in the water. Joel: Following that, I think is it iCIMS in November next? Chad: iCIMS. Yep. In November. Joel: So we're going to be going down to sunny beautiful Scottsdale, Arizona. Chad: Goat yoga. Joel: And it is beautiful in November, I can vouch for that. Yes, yoga is on the schedule. So geez, I got to start limbering up now or otherwise I'm going to just kill my back or legs. Whatever body parts you actually use in yoga I'm going to fuck up. Chad: I asked Susan Vitale, who's the VP of marketing over there to make sure that we could do goat yoga. So hopefully she'll have the goats in play and we can do this right. Joel: Do they have goats in Arizona? That sounds like Diamondback food to me, but we'll see. Chad: I can see this, yeah. Joel: Then little side note for me, RecruitCon in Nashville, I'll be there in November doing a little presentation on SEO for Google For Jobs. So if you're going to be at Recruit Con in Nashville in November, come down and say hi. Chad: Then December 6, Talent Net Live in Dallas, Texas. Joel: The coup de grâce, the Naughty or Nice Show live from Dallas. Chad: Yeah, we're doing to the Naughty or Nice show. I reached out to Carrie Corbin over at Dell, known her for a long time, I've known her for a long time, to be able to join us on the stage to do Naughty or, not Naughty and Nice, so we'll see. Joel: I'm sure you did. And what'd she say? Chad: She said she'll look at her schedule, so we're going to continue to press on that one. Joel: It's a nice of saying, "No thank you." Chad: She lives in Dallas, she better fucking come. Joel: That's what saying, "I'll look at my calendar means." She ain't fucking coming. Chad: Topics! Joel: Topics. Top news from this past week, agency TMP made an acquisition. What the hell did they do? Chad: AIA, otherwise known as, also known as, you know as, TMP. Joel: AIA, aka TMP. Chad: This is kind of quietly to an extent, this is their fourth acquisition this year. They acquired CKR Interactive in February. And CKR is still under the CKR banner. Just recently, Maximum, who is remaining under the Maximum banner, and Perengo is the only one so far that we've seen that has actually changed over to TMP Programmatic Jobs. So Carve, which is a social media agency, also has technology. Joel: Carve.social should tip you off as to what they do. Chad: That'll tell you something. So they were actually pulled into the fray and their team's going to stay intact. To me, it's really interesting because you're kind of looking for something that is simple and to me, none of this looks simple. I mean, I love the opportunity to perspectively pull some of this Maximum technology into TalentBrew, some of the social Carve technology into TalentBrew. But there are all these different brands that are floating around that just make this as confusing as fuck. Joel: Yeah, we continue to talk, aside form Perengo is the acqui-hires that sort of get spur from these acquisitions. I think this is another example. I mean, Carve is not hugely well-known. I mean, I know they're in London. I know they're fairly well-known there. Joel: But to me, there's no specific technology that they bring to the table or maybe even deep customer integration or things that they're doing with them. I think this largely a step into Europe, a step into acquiring folks that understand the agency business and all the intricacies of the technologies that are used in agencies now. This just continues the trend for TMP of consolidating a lot of these smaller fish and bringing them into the large ocean that is TMP/AIA. Chad: I think Carve does have technical assets that they're bringing to the table that is specific to obviously social with analytics and whatnot. So they're trying to pull everything together into a platform. If they were trying to capture and kill, then they would pull them under the TMP brand, but that's not happening. They're getting great talent, from whether it's Carve or CKR, it doesn't matter, they're getting some really great talent. But I just don't see this consolidation because it's not happening under one branch. I understand there's another TMP in the EU, so therefore, it's really hard to become TMP, which is why they have AIA. Chad: But still, you would think that they would migrate under one of those umbrellas. Whether it's more of an AIA acquisition, which this was, because it was in the EU, versus a TMP acquisition. Again, it just doesn't feel like that to me. But it is confusing as fuck because of all the brands and all the labels and then all these great people who are still working in running these brands, right? Joel: Yeah, and the acquisitions you mentioned are all within the last year, I think. So there's nothing saying that they don't pull all these into one brand next year or who knows when. Chad: CKR would've been the easiest to do that. Let's make this very simple, Recruitics acquired KRT how long ago? KRT is now Recruitics. Joel: Right. Chad: Okay? Joel: But Recruitics is much smaller than TMP, right? Chad: Well, it doesn't matter. You can still make those things, especially when you're acquiring a much smaller shop. There's no reason why you can't go ahead and start to relabel or at least start that transition process, right? You're not seeing that. I think it was really smart from the Recruitics and KRT standpoint to say, "Okay. We know who we are. We're going to be one brand. Boom, let's do this." Chad: I believe TMP and AIA know what they're doing with all these pieces, parts. But here's the thing, just because you know what you're doing with it, doesn't mean the fucking market does. And that makes it so much more confusing when you're trying to articulate a message. Joel: Yeah, no doubt. I mean, if you were god of the organization for a day, would you put everything under TMP or AIA or create a whole separate brand that can be global for all of the products and services. Chad: It depends on who you're bringing in, in this case, but I think from the social standpoint, these guys, that's what they do. They have a platform, they have a whole team. Then you bring them underneath TMP or AIA as AIA social or something to that nature, right? To be able to really show this combined force. As opposed to what it looks like now is it's just a bunch of scattered pieces, parts. Again, like here in the US, what's CKR doing? What are they actually bringing to the table? How does that works? Chad: Again, it's one of those things, and this is my call to our friends at TMP and AIA, we need a better understandable message on what you're actually doing with all this shit. Because, again, back in February, That's when all this started happening. Which is awesome, we love it. Don't stop. The thing that you have to stop doing is you need a unified message on telling the market what the fuck you're doing. Joel: Yeah, you're like a teen with a new credit card just buying shit. Help us understand what your reasoning is on all this stuff. We'd really appreciate it. Chad: It's the Gemspring Capital card. Joel: That's right. No fees for three months. Chad: No fees. That's right. Joel: And everything you can. Chad: Yeah. So the next thing that has no fees currently is LinkedIn's Event platform. Joel: Events, yeah. Everyone's into face-to-face now. So LinkedIn launches Events, what? Chad: Everybody's into face-to-face now. Joel: It's all the rage. This isn't sort of Events that you would think of for job fairs or what-not. This is sort of a Meetup competitor. Right? So groups can get together, and this is quoting the release from the company, "With this launch, our members now have a safe and trusted avenue to engage with their network online and offline." Joel: This is from the product manager, "We see them using this feature to host networking meetups, workshops, alumni meets, product launches and other fave-to-face gatherings." Joel: More from the news release, "Members can create private or public events while additional invite filters enable members to create events that target specific industries and job titles." That might be significant. "Currently, there's no official way to promote events on LinkedIn besides members sharing them on their profiles. LinkedIn Events is the first feature to be built at the company's new R&D Center in Bangalore," I think I said that correctly, "India. The features available in English only. Company's starting today with a global rollout. Expect it soon." How do we feel about this face-to-face stuff? Chad: Yeah, it's not really as much the face-to-face stuff as it is there are already platforms that are out there that do this and they do it well. Meetup.com, Eventbrite.com, right? So you have to start asking yourself as a bigger player. I like the whole idea of LinkedIn taking it further and saying, "Look, you can meet here. You're going to meet locally too or you can meet locally. Let's go ahead and let's try to spur that from this platform." Chad: Because they're probably seeing people sharing Meetup.com and Eventbrite events on their platform already. So it's like, "Hey, it's already happening, let's make it organic and see what we can do to perspectively monetize and then maybe monopolized on this shit." Chad: But from Meetup and Eventbrite's standpoint, I would love this because it's more validation and I start going to competitors and saying "What are you doing? We already have a base, we already have the technology, why don't we go ahead and do this together." Joel: Yeah, this feels a little lame and haphazard to me. I think there are platforms to do this already that are, let's admit it, sort of lame anyway. I mean, they're not really setting the world on fire, they're sort of just nice to have. I mean, if Meetup was so great it's old enough that it should be really hugely profitable just it's not. Joel: To me, people are just now figuring out how to share QR codes on their LinkedIn app to swap information with each other. Now we expect them to meet in places and organized events through LinkedIn. So I'm not super bullish on this. Joel: I think, the fact that this was an R&D effort, fairly telling, I don't know how serious they'll be with this it doesn't take off. I do like the fact that they have an R&D Center that throws out stuff like this, but I don't think it's going to be something worth talking about in any significance twelve months from now. Chad: So Eventbrite had, in 2017, other $200 million in revenue and that was an increase of over 50% from years past. So they could be taking a look a the market and seeing what they could perspectively plug in, obviously to their ecosystem. Joel: Yeah, I mean, if the goal is an Eventbrite things where you register with LinkedIn, your profile integrates who you're already connected with et cetera, there's an eCommerce system that you can get money, the organizations can make money from this, it's synced in with payment systems within LinkedIn or something like that that makes transferring money easy. Then scheduling where it's hooked in to Outlook or whatever your calendar system is. That's fairly interesting. Chad: It just makes it easier. So I think it's ease of use and there's an opportunity because you can see that there are platforms making money and they can perspectively make more money out of it. Joel: So the key here is, how serious do you think LinkedIn is about this? You think they're fairly serious. Whereas I probably think no so much. Chad: Yeah, I think they're serious enough to put a team on it and to be able to pilot it. And they're rolling it out kind of like in beta form to an extent, right? Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Chad: It's like, "Don't expect too much, here's what we're thinking." They're not rolling it out globally saying, "Yeah, this thing is going to kick ass and take names." Joel: Fair enough. We'll watch it and see how things unfold and while we ponder that, let's hear from our sponsor JobAdX and we'll get high with some pot job data coming at ya. JobAdX: Nah, not for me. All these jobs look the same. Next. JobAdX: This is what perfectly qualified candidates are thinking as they scroll past your jobs. Just half-heartedly skimming job descriptions that aren't standing out to them. Face it, we live in a world that is all about content, content, content. So why do we expect job seekers to react differently while reading paragraphs and bullets in templated job descriptions? JobAdX: Stand out in a feed full of boring job ads with a dynamic, enticing video that showcases your company culture, people and benefits with JobAdX. Instead of hoping that job seekers will stumble upon your employment branding video, JobAdX seamlessly displays it in the job description while they're searching, building a connection and reducing candidate drop off. JobAdX: You're spending thousands of dollars on beautiful, informative employment branding videos that just sit on a YouTube channel, just begging to be discovered. Why not feature them across out network of over 150 job sites to proactively compel top talent to join your team. Help candidates see themselves in your role by emailing JoinUs@JobAdX.com. That's JoinUs@ J-O-B-A-D-X.com. Attract, engage, employ with JobAdX. Chad: So one quick shout out to Roy Mauer over at SHRM. He just wrote an article called McDonald's Claims First 'Voice Apply' Process. I think that's kind of tongue-in-cheek to an extent, because I mean, if they're claiming voice apply and it's really text apply, isn't that kind of like an experience bait-and-switch? I think that's one of the things we should start to talk about more, is it's like you're starting to get this bait-and-switch from technology companies about what the experience is going to be like, right? So the experience bait-and-switch and the quote unquote claiming. I'm not saying he said it or he wrote it tongue-in-cheek, but I take it that it's tongue-in-cheek. Joel: Yeah, the whole things reminds me of when mobile sort of became a thing in 2010-11 or so and job boards or ATS' were like, "We're mobile optimized." Yeah, the job search was optimized for mobile, but once you hit the apply button... Chad: You were fucked. Joel: It took you to hell, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: So this is sort of similar. Apply with your voice, like, "Okay, thanks for that, here's a link that you can follow and apply. Bye-bye now." Chad: McDonald's and paradox, you need to get your shit together guys. Joel: It is kind of a paradox isn't it? Chad: It is. Joel: I'm going to tease a little episode we have coming up with George Laraque, where I ask George if he were to launch a business today in our space, what would he launch? And his answer was a little dancing but we got him to sort of admit that a specialized job site was sort of the way to go. Which our next two stories are sort or relevant to that statement. Chad: Exactly. Joel: The first industry we're talking about is pot, weed, cannabis. Chad: Weed. Joel: The job openings in this industry are off the chain. A story out by Finance Buzz talked about a report from Glassdoor and a few others. Glassdoor, "there were a total of 15,012 cannabis industry job openings and this is going back to last year in December. Which was an increase by 76% compared to the same period from 2017." Joel: ZipRecruiter highlighted that "in 2017, the number of cannabis industry jobs grew by 445%. Which outpaced both technology, which was 254% and healthcare at 70%." Joel: Also, in the report following the legalization of hemp-derived CBD products which is a huge industry, experts noted that "the job demand continued to grow HempStaff, which is a great name for a company. The hemp and cannabis recruiting firm mentioned in March that 80% of its job listings were for upper level positions, such as CFO and accounting managers." So this is an industry that has blown up. Chad: Yes. And those hemp factories are going to ramp up production, which means factory line people, machinists, all those types of workers, right? Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: Not to mention, we're seeing big names in the game like Amazon, CVS, Walgreens around the hemp/CBD types of products and that's a nationwide product rollout. One of the reasons why we're seeing a growth of 445%, because this is a baby industry that is only in, I mean, shit, what, a handful of states right now? And it's starting to grow as we start to see more of the states really get their head out of their asses and see that there are some perspective tax opportunities here. It's going to happen. Then obviously from that standpoint, you're going to start to see growth in that industry. So I believe right now, we're just starting to see the tip of the spear with regard to growth in this industry. Joel: Yeah, no doubt. The article also notes Fortune Business Insights highlighting that "the industry garnered $10.6 billion in 2018, but is expected to grow in 2026 by becoming an almost $100 billion business by the end of that year." So $10.6 billion to almost $100 billion in eight years, that's growth. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So kids out there, if you're looking to get into the industry, pot may be the way to go. Chad: Pot or, I don't know, energy. Joel: Energy. Don't just say no kids. Chad: So RigUp, an organization, Austin-based marketplace, one of the things we're high on for on-demand job services for skilled labor in the energy industry raised $300 million in Series D. Now just nine months ago, not even a year ago, they had $60 million in Series C. In total, they have over or close to $450 million in total form a funding standpoint. Chad: Again, niche. Being able to take a look at energy. It's a big industry, don't get me wrong, and it's growing because of renewable, but niche and really focused on the marketplace aspect. Joel: Yeah, and a growing volatile business as well, right? You have a switch from coal and fossil fuels to air, solar and whatever, right? Chad: Which is why this is perfect. Joel: Yeah, people that have skills in one probably have transferable skills in the other. And RigUp is looking to cash in on that phenomena. I love that the platform, in general, is a hugely important and noteworthy business. Joel: But we've talked about healthcare and nursing as a gig platform or a contractor platform and now we're taking about energy. I think we'll continue to see more and more industries do this and we'll see more and more dollars go into it. I mean, we got a big boner over JobCase getting $100 million and Scout getting $100 million, I mean this is a $300 million Series D raise, holy cow. This is legitimate shit. Chad: Yeah, you're looking at all these different niches. I keep thinking back to Communo who's still in the very early phases of this and it is a marketplace for those individuals who are creatives and designers. And in that space, this is what I see as the evolution of what job boards were or are or a job board could start to take that data and turn itself into a marketplace. You have those individuals, now you need to learn how to nurture them, ensure that you understand their skillsets, and start that matchmaking process. Joel: Yeah, there's going to be some big winners in this, you might as well be one of them. Chad: No reason why you can't be. Joel: Speaking of a big winner, let's hear a word from our buddies at Canvas and then talked about our buddies Talroo and iCIMS and maybe even a few others. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas Bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas: Canvas leverages the latest in machine-learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily, amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiters success. Canvas: Request a demo at GoCanvas.io and in twenty minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's GoCanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: They're not just making new t-shirts, Talroo is doing all kinds of stuff. Chad: Yeah, and they are a sponsor of ours, who we really haven't talked about a lot. But here's a reason why we're talking about them today. They had two new partnership development, product development... Joel: Announcements. Chad: Press releases, yeah. Announcements pop out. From my standpoint, this first one, which really got me jazzed, is I think a lesson to all startups and rally all those different vendors out there on what you should be focusing on. Chad: The first one's integration with iCIMS. Now, whether it's iCIMS or whether it's another big core system, it's still an integration with a core system. The primary benefit of the integration for employers is to make life easier. There's no IT resources required, integrated into the system, you don't have to pop back and forth from iCIMS to Talroo to this to that. Joel: And more and more customers, if you're not integrated into their system, they're not even going to use you. Chad: There's no reason to, because they don't have time to fuck around with you, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: I love when I see any companies who are starting to deeply integrate into core systems. Because when we do talk tot talent acquisition or we do talk to recruiters, they're like, "M an, I don't need another fucking platform or another tool or another browser." Joel: Another log-in. Another email. Chad: Can't I just do it here? Yeah, can't I just do it here? That's what Talroo did with this integration. So that's big applause for those guys on this one. Joel: Run the soundbite, here we go. Chad: Yeah, as we've talked about Events, they had a new product rollout around Events. Joel: Yeah, this is total coincidence that Indeed launches Events, the company right next door to them, and they launch Events. Totally not connected at all. But yeah, Talroo launched sort of an Event solution, and these are more for the job fair. Chad: Supercharger. Joel: Yeah, it's really cool. So they're integrated with their systems of finding candidates, there's some scheduling integrations that's really cool. They haven't just mimicked or thrown something at the wall, it looks like they've really taken some time to create something that's really cool. And good on them. I mean, we talk about integration a lot, so it's always nice to see companies that continue to innovate like Talroo has. Chad: And again, if you're an organization out there and you're asking yourself where should we focus, if you're trying to talk to the direct employer, this is where you have to focus. I mean, this is where you have to focus. Because if you want them to use your system, you have to be in their system of record or their core system that they're using now, because they don't have time to be popping around from platform, to platform, to platform, to platform. Make it easier for them. Joel: Yep. I also like it because their Events product is a pay-for-performance model. Chad: Yes. Joel: Where customers only pay for the RSVPs they receive and I think that's a good on on them for having a pay-for-performance model in the events space. Chad: Yep. Supercharger events, pay-for-performance, it's a win. Joel: Love it. And if you want to find out more, head to Talroo.com/Start. Chad: Oh, is that start? Joel: Start. Chad: That's interesting. Joel: As in we're about to stop. Chad: Because we out. Joel: We out. Walken: Thank you for listening to what's it called? A podcast. The Chad, the Cheese, brilliant. They talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs to people you don't even know. And yet, you're listening. It's incredible and not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Walken: Any who, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.ChadCheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out. #TMP #AIA #social #RigUp #Linkedn #CannabisJobs #Talroo #Marketplace #Acquisition #Eventbrite #MeetUp