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We're not sure how much longer our livers can take 2020, and Election Day hasn't helped matters. In fact, it's making things worse, so what better opportunity for a little therapy than the weekly podcast? The boys discuss Trumpism, Kamala, the American Worker, LGBTQ wins, Sausage Kings, Russians and crossbows. Wait, what?!?!?! You'll want to stick around till the end, trust me. Always a winner on Election Day? Jobvite, JobAdx, and Sovren. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. INTRO (1s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (21s): I'm not quite sure my liver can put up with more of this, but here we go. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast everybody. I'm your cohost Joel "Too Close to Call" Cheeseman. Chad (34s): And I'm Chad "Tell Me When Somebody Hits 270" Sowash. Joel (38s): On this week's show what else? The election! Winners, losers, maybe a stiff drink or two. And we'll end with sausages and crossbows. Chad (49s): Is that a porn? Joel (50s): Enjoy this ad while I go buy more shares of Brown Forman, I sat on the rocks. Sovren (56s): You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal" like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel (1m 58s): I'm sorry. We have to backtrack. Is that porn? I said Brown Forman and not forearm. Chad (2m 4s): Yeah, I'm sorry. You said you say, you said sausages and crossbows. I wasn't sure. Joel (2m 9s): That my bad, my bad. All right. I'm a little bit drained as most of us Americans are. So forgive us. Forgive us, forgive us. Or at least me, if we're a little slow, slow today. Yeah. New Sovren ad, new Sovren tech, a new Sovren giveaway coming soon, teaser there. But yeah, sovereign is going to be a big part of our 2020 goodbye song. Chad (2m 30s): They've been behind the scenes. Pretty much powering everything on the vendor side, either from a parsing or a matching standpoint or both. And now they're doing more and to be able to actually see the product and then also see all the hooks and the APIs and all that man, those guys are going to be fucking gone gangbusters. Joel (2m 49s): Yeah. And everyone will think we're biased, which in some ways we are. But even if they weren't a big supporter of the show, Sovren's been the gold standard for a lot of this stuff for a long time. Chad (3m 0s): Fuck Yeah! Joel (3m 1s): And everybody uses them. They're under the radar, but yeah, they're, they're coming out baby. 2021 might be their year to, to shine. Chad (3m 9s): Yup. Yup. Well, quick, quick announcement for all of those who go to Chadcheese.com, just so you know, it's going through a major renovation right now. Some of the walls are getting knocked down, getting a little paint, you know, trying to get that walk-in closet Joel's always wanted. So if you're looking to be able to, for, for new content, just subscribe, you can do that on Apple, Spotify, Google. And when we finally get this pulled together with Shaker, who's doing the hard in the heavy lifting. We'll let everybody know, but until then contents gonna stay pretty stagnant on the website, But soon, Oh, big unveil baby. Joel (3m 54s): And this isn't just lipstick on a pig. We didn't just throw in a different theme to the website. This is a legitimate professional redesign and big, big ups to Shaker for helping us out on a, on this project. They've been awesome! For sure! Chad (4m 11s): Awesome. Joel (4m 12s): SHOUT OUTS? Chad (4m 14s): SHOUT OUTS! Joel (4m 16s): Dude, Jo Lockwood. First of all, I gotta say that. It's like, if you haven't already heard the show with Jo, go back to the archives, check it out. But she is in the hospital for an acute pancreatitis. She's lovingly sharing all this with everybody, but it sounds like she's having a rough time. So Jo, keep the faith, stay strong. You'll get through it and yeah, we're, we're rooting for you for sure. Chad (4m 42s): Get well soon, Jo, we miss ya! A big SHOUT OUT to Alpar Major over at Smart Dreamers in Romania. He loves the no bullshit style of podcast. Well Alpar, we, we kind of do too. Joel (4m 58s): We do love that RNL Recruiters Nation Live the Jobvite event. They're gone virtual this year. I've been invited to come speak it's December 10th. More information will be forthcoming, but wanted to, to get that on the, the shout-out slash travel. I know we saved travel and events till the end, but it's a fucked up week. So I'm gonna throw it in at the beginning. Chad (5m 20s): SHOUT OUT to Tim Sackett who wore his new Chad and Cheese tee at the gym while working out and is now trying to sell it on eBay. Tim, I've got to tell you, man, going to Planet Fitness on pizza day is not a fucking workout ok? Joel (5m 37s): I thought he was selling on, on his Only Fans website, which I hear is not very profitable for him, but either way more, more t-shirts out there. Isabelle, Kent, Jeremy Roberts, our buddy, and John Thurman, I think were out there. Isabelle major, major ups for like putting in the JobAdX a little slash you know, thing in her picture. So she's a marketing gal and she knows to get that plug in there. Cause she knows that we'd share that. So thanks for wearing the shirts, everybody. And if you want your own Whoa, Chad and Cheese t-shirt you gotta head out to chadcheese.com/free. That's Chadcheese.com/free. Joel (6m 18s): We'll put you on the list. We'll draw names. We'll throw darts, whatever you might want a t-shirt Chad (6m 24s): And Jeremy comes off the naughty list by the way. So Jeremy's back in the good graces. He remember he actually had that picture where it had blocks over his face. Like he was in the witness protection program or something it's been rectified this week. So, but I'd like to say, Jeremy, don't let it happen again, man. Come on man! Joel (6m 47s): SHOUT OUT to Jennifer Shanahan is our first ever BeerDrop winner sponsored by our buddies at AdZoona who want to make sure 2020 is just a little bit better with alcohol. We are in the process of getting a zoom tasting scheduled. So be on the lookout for that. Jennifer, we appreciate you. And you're going to have a good weekend for sure. Chad (7m 15s): Yes. And I actually selected some of the beers. I couldn't bite. I didn't get them all because I think we sent her like 20 fucking beers. I got a select group myself, just to make sure that I can taste the same types of beers that she has. I can't wait for that one. Joel (7m 30s): Yeah. Yeah. I've got my eye on the skull crusher. I'm interested, excited about that. Chad (7m 37s): Big SHOUT OUT to Gareth Peterson and the crew at Caroo, C-A-R-O-O over in the UK, they posted their first episode of Hire Wars Return of the Job Eye that is the worst ever. It's one of the worst/best things on the internet today. I've already shared it all over the socials. Just the bad dry UK humor all over the place. It's - You got to watch it. Joel (8m 8s): For sure. For sure. If you're not getting news and Chad and Cheese in your pocket, I know it's outside of, you know, politics and all that good stuff. News has been a little bit weak this this week, but make sure that you're signed up to get texts and alerts from us on your phone, in your pocket. You want to text the, the letter CC to (833) 799-0321. That's the letters CC (833) 799-0321. All right. Chad (8m 39s): The last for me an event, we're going to close the year out with our last round three of Friendly Discourse. That's on November 17th at 2:00 PM. Eastern. This topic for this month is going to be Robots versus Humans. Come on, man. Jim pleads, his case on why robots, algorithms and automation will never take over recruiting. And I get to play the bad guy and tell Jim he'd better be voting for universal basic income soon. Watch the socials for other registration details and come check it out. Joel (9m 19s): Love it. Okay. My last, a SHOUT OUT, I'm just, I'm going to shout out to the, the election process in our country. My wife is some of, you know, got her American citizenship this year. She's a dual Canadian, U S citizen. She has jumped head first into democracy here. She worked the polls. She's getting her whole experience, you know, voted for the first time. Got super excited about the little sticker you get to where, you know, it's a little bit old for me, but she's super excited. Anyway, I think, I think so far through this whole thing, it's been pretty smooth. The process is working as it should. This voter fraud, shit is garbage. Joel (10m 1s): We're soldiering on. And I think that speaks a lot to the system and I I'm hopeful that it will continue to work as it should. We will have a winner as, as we should. And that will, there will be a knock on wood, peaceful transformation of power. If that's what happens at this point of doing this show, Nevada is still out, out there, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia, North Carolina, a lot of States that are going to decide this thing and it's up in the air. So wherever it happens, I'm hopeful that America will find its better self in terms of getting all this done. And the election process has been, I think A+ Chad (10m 43s): I have to say she was slammed into the whole process and it was more like being slammed into a brick wall, I would say, right? I mean, she, she was working the polls and for the most part, I, I think she, she started to understand what you're surrounded by here in the state of Indiana. Joel (11m 4s): I mean, some highlights from her, her experience. She was, there was six total, I believe in the precinct. She was the only Democrat of the list. Now we live in a very Republican area, so that's not a super surprise. Chad (11m 18s): The entire state. Joel (11m 19s): The entire state, but certainly Northern Indianapolis for sure. A Democrat and a Republican have to take the votes together to the, to the, the County commissioner's office. So it was cool. Like she was, she was the token Democrat. Chad (11m 32s): Part of the process. Joel (11m 34s): Yeah. That took the votes there. So she got to see it firsthand. She wants to be a voter or a vote counter next time. So she can experience, you know, hopefully it will be much less stressful next year. Chad (11m 45s): Yeah. So, this has been big from the standpoint of our kids too, because they're seeing this right. There's, there's just a big impact and it's an incredibly divisive time. What of, what kind of conversations have you had any conversations with the kids? Have they asked you about any of this? I mean what's the what's happening at the Cheeseman house? Joel (12m 7s): Yeah. So the three-year-old could give a shit, which is kind of a nice little reprieve from all the stress and everything. Chad (12m 13s): That goes without saying. Joel (12m 14s): Like to see pictures of him on the playground is like, he doesn't give a shit about any of this. Like it's a nice escape. The, the older kids, 14 and 11, as you know, I'm divorced. I have not seen them since the election. I will see them today. So we'll, we'll talk about that. I think, you know, for me, the takeaway on the kid side is that it's depressing for them to see quote, unquote "politics or government" as sort of this, you know, governing through Twitter. You know, the news news getting thrown under the bus, sort of lies. And you know, when you and I grew up at, at the same age, you may not have agreed with the other side, but at least people, they carried themselves with a certain level of class. Joel (12m 58s): You know, you know, I grew up with Reagan, Bush, you know, there was a quorum there that, that has been lost and I feel badly for young people that don't know what it should kind of look like or what it's looked like for 200 plus years, to see it now and think, Oh, that's government, because it isn't. And you know, if nothing else for me and I made this clear in the election election show and we can get into our, our horrible predictions there if we want to. But for me, it's like getting Trump out of here is going back to government, at least as we, we know it as, you know, classy people that treated each other with some, a bit of respect, get back to that, I think that's important. Joel (13m 40s): And I'll certainly talk to the kids call is jokingly supported Kanye through all this. So he is sort of interested from afar or at least as, as a 13, 14 year old can do it. But yeah, you have older kids. What have you told them? Chad (13m 54s): Two in college? And it's more listening than it is telling, right. We've got one who's actually a poly-psy major in, at ONU in Northwest Ohio. And she obviously has a lot of venting and which, which makes sense. I mean, she's been incredibly vested in this whole process, during the entire time for the elections. And then my youngest daughter, who is a freshmen, we actually had a video call last night and she was visibly shaken, because of the turnout. I mean, we, we all felt at least in the, in the, in the family at home, that the early numbers meant that the country was correcting its mistake in a major way. Chad (14m 37s): And that just wasn't the case. So, you know, it, it was, it was hard. And then last but not least, you know, we have our son, that's a senior in high school. He's gay, you know, so there's some impact all the way around both girls voted this time, the very first time they voted for a presidential candidate and they feel like they're a part of the process. So I think from our standpoint, there's definitely, you know, helping them understand, keep your head up. We've got to keep trudging and driving through this to, to what we feel is right. But it's not easy. Joel (15m 12s): Yup. So let's, let's, let's touch on the election show real quick. We were both ridiculously wrong. Chad (15m 18s): It was wishful thinking. Joel (15m 20s): Take me to you watching sort of the early results, Florida coming in and, and Ohio sort of going Republican after it looked like maybe it was going to do do a 180 from last year, sort of take me through your thoughts on election night as it was unfolding. Chad (15m 35s): Yeah, I know, I knew it was the long game, but I was hoping for the short game in, you know, as, as I just said, you know, with the kids in our hope here in the family and, and you know, my prediction was definitely wishful thinking and very hopeful for this country and it didn't shake out that way. So it really hurt. I still feel and felt like Biden has a much better chance of, of winning. But, but overall, I mean, it's a soul crusher when nearly half of the country is voting for the chaos and idiocracy that we've experienced over the last four years. Chad (16m 15s): And, and how can that not hurt somebody who really feels like, you know, we're some of the best in the world. Joel (16m 22s): Yeah. I think, you know, I was hoping that at the end of the night, we'd be able to say Mulligan and our bad and be able to sort of move on. That's not the case. Chad (16m 32s): This will shake out during the show. So let's get into the winners and the losers. Joel (16m 36s): Fair enough. I got a lot of shit to get off my chest, Chad. I'm sorry if I'm, if I'm feeling all right, let's, let's get to our, what do you want to do? Winners or losers? Chad (16m 48s): Winners! Joel (16m 49s): Winners. Okay. So we're going to, we're going to do this sort of tennis style. I'm going to go through my, one of my winners and vice versa, and we'll go, we're doing three each and then we'll take a break and then we'll get to the losers, which is obviously much more exciting. Anyway. So, so my winners, number one is gig economy platforms. One of the few bits of news from the election night was, out of California in terms of employment, was Uber, Lyft, Door Dash and others, Postmates, I believe spent upwards of a half, $500 million, I think, to defeat sort of legislation that would treat gig workers like employees. Joel (17m 30s): Obviously, if someone's an employee, you know, there's all kinds of benefits that they're, that they're owed under the law here in the US in terms of unemployment insurance, possible health insurance, being able to, to hold the hold, these companies under laws that, that normally they wouldn't, if they're doing contract, which is essentially what they do now. So from a winner standpoint, I think that the gig economy platforms had a huge win. And I was personally shocked that California, the most progressive state, arguably in the country, you know, opted to basically side with the gig economy platforms, as opposed to the workers. Joel (18m 12s): And now the, you know, the, the reaction to that is going to be, you know, state after state gig economy platform after gig economy platform, there's precedent. Now they're all basically going to be able to run free as, as they are today with contract workers. We're seeing obviously the stocks, stocks of all those companies go, you know, go through the roof in the past 24 or 48 hours. So they're a big winner. And that that's one of my few employment related topics from, from this show. But that was a big winner for me, thoughts. Chad (18m 46s): Money buys, votes. That's one of the reasons why our democracy is so fucked up and broken right now, when you can spend $500 million plus on advertising and propaganda in bullshit, as opposed to actually paying your people. That is what we are here in America today. And that says more, about not just California, but our entire system, than most anything else that happened. Yeah. Joel (19m 17s): You know, I'm a little bit on the fence. I'm a little less married to sort of your position on this, because I do think there there's a level of being a contract worker is a positive and big being able to, you know, pick your own, pick your own hours and pick they own comp you know, the companies and the gigs and whatever platforms you want to be a part of and, and have that freedom to do that. The other side of me thinks, or the other side of me realizes look until we get sort of a national healthcare system where gig workers can at least have the safety net of if they get in a wreck while traveling an Uber, that they can go to the hospital and get fixed, or if their family gets sick. There's not that, you know, that thing to worry about that has to be solved at some point. Joel (20m 1s): And to me, to me, a symptom or something that needs to happen because of this, this ruling is that there needs to be some healthcare legislation to help folks that are, that are giggers if you will. So. Chad (20m 13s): It's hard, not having healthcare wherever you're at. My big winner. This is knocking on wood, hoping that the numbers stay true and Biden still wins is science. Science in medicine, so scientists, doctors, and the people who want to beat COVID. So the country can get our damned economic engines running. Again yesterday we topped over 100,000 COVID cases and over 1600 deaths in one day. So this has been, you know, this has always been a healthcare emergency that impacted the economy, never an economic emergency with a side of virus. Chad (20m 58s): And that's the thing. We don't have leadership now that has focused on the root of a problem, which has been the pandemic. We focused on making money, which is, again, one of the reasons why we're in the shitstorm that we are because we're focusing on money instead of people. And so hopefully again, Biden wins and science and medicine starts to take over. And then we get our fucking economy back. Joel (21m 26s): I look at this a little bit in different to you, to me again, it, it, it went back to believing that there might be a blue wave, right? Like we're going to make everything right. That was wrong. And one of those rights that I thought we were going to, to set straight was we're going to, we're going to vote with science. The candidate who says, you know, doctors are idiots, the one who lets it lets their pep rally people, you know, shout out Fire Fauci, Fire Fauci, Fire Fauci,, and have him be like, Oh, just get me through the election. And we'll take care of Fauci,. Like the animosity that that side has shown science. And the fact that they got 50% of the vote basically tells me that, that people, a lot of people don't believe in science and they're not siding with science. Joel (22m 10s): So I would almost, I almost put science as a loser in my bracket. So we, we differ a little bit on that. Obviously, if Biden wins, that's a big win for science. But as, as of today, we'll see what happens. It's still uncertain. Chad (22m 25s): Yep. Joel (22m 26s): All right. Winter for me in light of what I just said is Trumpism. Again, I really believed that was going to be just a real thumbs down on Trump, his politics, the way that he does things. Boy was I wrong. Trump ism is alive and well for those that are just following the presidential stuff. We, the Republicans actually gained seats in the house. The Senate is not going to flip. So even if Trump does not get elected, his ideology and his maybe way of doing politics is not going anywhere. And I've even seen opinion pieces that say he could run again in 2024, and let's not forget we have an entire Trump family just waiting to become Congress, you know, Congress, people and senators, and who knows what else? Joel (23m 19s): So, you know, to me, a big winner in this, although maybe the rest of us are losers is Trumpism. And we're going to have to live with that for the foreseeable future. Chad (23m 29s): Which is why I'm glad. My next winner is cannabis. Applause (23m 32s): Clapping and cheering. Chad (23m 35s): Of the five States that voted on cannabis four States approved the legal recreational marijuana for adults 21 and older. That's New Jersey. Joel (23m 46s): Was Indiana on the list? Chad (23m 48s): Yeah, Indiana will be the only state that will be be behind Indiana in this whole conversation is Alabama Joel (23m 57s): Or Utah. I'm going in Utah as the last good last stand. Chad (24m 1s): Newton, New Jersey, Montana, Mississippi, South Dakota, recreational and medical, Arizona, and Oregon is the first state to legalize regulated medicinal use of, Joel (24m 17s): Did you say, did you say Mississippi or was that a, was that a misspoken? Chad (24m 21s): Yeah. Mississippi is for medical only, medicinal, but still Mississippi marijuana. You can't, it can't can't can't believe it. So psilocybin AKA magic mushrooms with the medical use will come after a two year development period in Oregon. Oregon has passed a measure that decriminalizes small amounts of street drugs, making offenses similar to traffic violations. Crimes that are associated with drug use, such as manufacturing, drugs, selling drugs, and driving under the influence are still criminal offenses. But more than a hundred organizations endorsed the measure, including the Oregon chapter of the American College of Physicians, Oregon Nurses, Associations, just a bunch of different ones, but multiple countries in Europe, including Portugal, the Netherlands and Switzerland have decriminalized hard drugs without rampid effects. Chad (25m 23s): A 2015 European drug report also found that Portugal's drug overdose rate is five times lower than the European average. So as we all look at this and think of war on drugs, and this is your brain, and this is your brain on drugs, you know, that that has been the propaganda that's been shoved into our brains for decades. Joel (25m 49s): Since our lifetime, the war on drugs has been at the forefront of, of policy in this country and you and I lived it, we live Nancy. Reagan's Just Say No to Drugs. Marijuana is a gateway to heroin and everything else was scary as shit when Chad and I grew up and it is slowly unfolded into not being so bad and being legalized and Oh, States that legalize it, you know, don't go straight to hell. So this phenomenon of drugs and the war on drugs and decriminalization and, you know, social workers instead of handcuffs is probably a really good thing that the world is, is going through. Joel (26m 34s): And so, yeah, th taking away the, the criminalization and the negative aspects of drug use in this country is, is a long time coming. It's really interesting to see government and politics be at the forefront of, of all this stuff happening. Chad (26m 49s): We have 5%, around 5% of the world population and 25% of incarcerated individuals. Joel (26m 58s): You know, it's weird that private companies that are jails also make more money. If there are more prisoners, it's kind of weird how that, that works. Yeah. Chad (27m 7s): Yeah. And one in three black males in the US will be incarcerated so that's the average versus one in 17 white males. Joel (27m 17s): Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, my, my final winner in our winners category goes to the markets, or more specifically, maybe your 401k, the rich, the rich get richer. And the reason for that is basically: not much is going to change. Government is split. The world is divided. The political scene is, is very, it's just not adherent to change. I don't, I don't think we're going to see tax increases, whether it's Biden or Trump. I don't think we're going to see any new regulations. I think tariffs, assuming Biden gets into office will probably ease up a little bit, which is good for the 401ks and the markets. Joel (28m 4s): I think if you're invested in big tech, I think they're a big winner in this. I don't think there's going to be enough of a mandate and whoever's president to break up big tech or even maybe have common sense regulations around big tech. So a lot of those companies that have, you know, the five companies that are like 20% of the value of the fortune 500 are going to be, are going to be healthy. And people who own stocks are going to be pretty happy in the next four years. Although that leaves a lot of people out. The market holders, the stock owners, the business owners that are successful are going to have a pretty good time in the next four years, no matter who is in office. Joel (28m 48s): And they are my last winner. Chad (28m 52s): And remember everybody that 90% of the stocks are actually owned by the top 10% of earners. My last winners are treating people as people. So in Delaware, Sarah McBride became the first transgender state Senator in US history. In Tennessee, Torrey Harris and Eddie McMannis through they're they're on different sides of the aisle found common ground to make history and wins the serve in Tennessee. Taylor Small was elected to Vermont, the Vermont house of representatives, where she is a trans female, 26 years old. Chad (29m 36s): I mean, fucking crazy! New York elects two openly LGBTQ black members of Congress Ritchie Torres and Mondaire Jones, Georgia elects first openly LGBTQ state Senator Kim Jackson. And also they reelected who, Sam Park who came out while he was in. So he was, he was in much like Pete Buttigieg when he was mayor and he was reelected reelected after he came out out of the closet in Indiana. Kansas elects, first transgender lawmaker, Stephanie Byers, here's the rub. Chad (30m 19s): Okay. Those gay and trans people were always there. They can finally be themselves and come do their work as they are. I'll also say that, you know, I, I believe mayor Pete did have something to do with people understanding, and I don't want to say normalizing, cause it's always been normal. This is that they are who they are. And this, having more of these individuals that are actually either coming out while they're doing the work or going in to win these votes, I think is a huge win for our country. Joel (30m 57s): No doubt. And don't forget trailblazer openly gay Senator Lindsey Graham, who got reelected. Oh, wait a minute. I don't think that's right, my notes for a little bit worried on that. Well, we'll be right back everybody. Jobvite (31m 10s): Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com. Joel (31m 43s): Losers. Chad (31m 44s): Losers! Joel (31m 46s): Losers! All right, your turn. Chad (31m 48s): Okay. The first, my first loser is the world stage. Many of us felt that America was the bright, shiny city on the Hill, but what we're now realizing is that Hill is lit by Tiki torches. The world cares. I mean, the amount of messages that I've received from all over the world, just this week was inspiring. They gave us a chance to rectify our major mistake. And Donald Trump will end up with more votes in 2020 than he had in 2016, which have demonstrated that we are not, the United States is not the moral high ground. Chad (32m 30s): We are not the eloquent answer to democracy. And we're sure as hell not the country to pattern yourself after. We were once, don't get wrong. And I'm hoping that we can stop beating our fucking chest long enough to finally fix the shit that's broken. That's the problem with America right now. We want to stand up and say, we are the biggest and we're the best, but we don't look down and see all the people that we're leaving behind. We don't want to see the people that are working their asses off, but they can't even afford rent. There's so much fucked up in this country and the world has been watching and we are losing leadership. Joel (33m 15s): Yeah. You know, I, I, I'm still optimistic on America. And you know, one of the things I tell my wife, who is a Canadian is especially down on sort of our position in the world. And it was just people forget, you know, four plus short years ago where Barack Obama was, you know, the envy and little, you know, the leader that everyone sort of loved and looked up to. Certainly he had his opponents here in the States, as well as globally. But, but he didn't embarrass anybody. He didn't insult anybody. He didn't grab anybody by the pussy. I mean, he was someone that we could all be, you know, really proud of. Joel (33m 57s): And, and I still think that, you know, if Biden gets in, we could do a 180 pretty quickly. Unfortunately the election as a whole did not go that way. And we really took the mascot by the way, the Tiki torch line was pretty good. I dunno how, how long you took to come up with that. That was nice. You know, we, we basically, you know, we took off the, the white hood, right. And this election, and we said, yeah, this is really who half of us are. We're divided. It's, it's really fucked up. You know, the, the thing we have going for us, I think is still our institutions. I mentioned the process in our SHOUT OUTS and I still think the way that we're doing the election will hold firm. Joel (34m 36s): I think our institutions are still strong. Our rule of law is still a thing I think is as nasty as a two-party system is it's still better than a single totalitarian system. And so I still believe in America, we've got some real issues. The, the racism is weird, but again, more blacks voted for Trump this time around. So it's a very confusing, divisive time in America. I think, you know, media and social media play a really interesting part in dividing us and keeping us divided. That's a different podcast, but yeah, that's a good loser. There's a void in the world. Joel (35m 17s): And we need to, to make sure that we don't let that be a void for too long, because I still think we're the best hope for the world. Call me, call me Pollyanna. Chad (35m 29s): Yeah. You're also a white man in the United States. Nothing's changed much for you in the last 400 years. Remember Newsroom, when Jeff Daniels did that opening monologue? Joel (35m 40s): Yep. Chad (35m 40s): That's the thing is in the numbers have probably changed a little bit, but not much. The United States, 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178 in infant mortality, 3rd in median income, 4th in labor force and number four and exports, the only three areas the United States leads is the number one or number one in incarcerated citizens per capita. Number one in adults who believe in angels are real and last but not least number one in defense spending where we outspend more than 26 other countries combined 25 of which are allies. Chad (36m 28s): We have a prioritization problem in this fucking country. Joel (36m 33s): I still believe there's nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed with what's right with America, but let's get to my loser showering. All right. How about the environment? Are you arguably the most important issue in, in mankind and humankind? Right. I don't remember it being discussed, but maybe five minutes in one of the debates. Clearly oil, you know, fossil fuels won, coal won, it's sort of these old, it's just, it's just bad for the environment. There there's no spotlight on, curing sort of the planet. Now I do think if Biden gets in, you know, it's good for alternative energy. I think it's good for companies that, that provide services, and products and that, and that in that sector, I think that there's probably going to be some really minor benefits for folks that, you know, buy electric cars or have solar panels or things like that, which have really been gutted in the last four years. Joel (37m 32s): But overall, a big loser in my mind is the environment. I don't think anything is going to change in the next four years. We're just going to get hotter and nastier and hurricanes and floods and wrath of God is going to continue. Thanks to 2020s election. Chad (37m 49s): I don't know that I want to add to that. My next loser is healthcare. When you mentioned it before, nothing will be completed legislatively to provide more American's healthcare, because we won't have that really, that blue wave that we were hoping would happen so that we have control. We can make some major changes. We know Mitch McConnell's dumb assets in there won't allow anything to happen. Literally in the next four years. We need a vehicle to someday extract sole access of healthcare benefits from traditional employers. Our country is sicker because of the rise of employers, gaming part-time workers or gig gig workers. Joel (38m 34s): Giggers. Chad (38m 35s): Poorer, healthcare is too damned expensive and less innovative because healthcare is not portable. So Americans are hesitant to change or change jobs or start up companies. Joel (38m 49s): Yeah. There's probably nothing more broken in our country and less like further away from being fixed than healthcare. Chad (38m 56s): Mass incarceration. Joel (38m 57s): But yeah, my next loser is a Kamala. Kamala Harris. Chad (39m 4s): It's Kamala, but go ahead. Okay. Sorry. Joel (39m 10s): My next loser Kamala Harris. And here's why if the Democrats thought that we would be in an environment in America to accept a black woman as president in 2024, I think that this election highlighted the fact that it is not, I would also probably throw Pete Buttigieg in there, whereas we thought, Hey, the, the country is okay like, we're, we're more progressive than this. We aren't, so the Democrats, I think really have to look deep inside in terms of 2024 and, and who they're going to put, put up for, for, for the presidency. Joel (39m 51s): Obviously Kamala is going to be up there, but I'm not sure America based on this election is ready for a black woman to be president. Yeah. Chad (39m 59s): Yeah. What we need is the Lincoln Project to really take over and really face how Democrats do business this coming from a time Republican turn Democrat because of this fucking idiot in the White House right now. In the Lincoln Project is nothing but a bunch of Republicans, who feel like I do. Yeah. The biggest issue. And this is one of the things that Julie hates me saying is, is Democrats do one thing really well and that's lose. They don't know how to prepare a message. They don't know how to focus and be disciplined. They love people and they want to be able to help people. Chad (40m 41s): And I love that about them, but they need the Lincoln Project and people like that to get their asses disciplined and focused on keeping their eyes on the prize. Joel (40m 53s): I think you, you touched on something really interesting, and that is sort of the splintering of parties that I see happening today. So you, you have the Trumpists who are the Republican flag bearers, right. And, and that Trump ism is something that I don't really recognize very much as Republican doctrine. And of course you have the Progressive's on the other end with AOC, Bernie, Elizabeth Warren, and the like, and then you have sort of disengaged or, or, you know, Republicans like Colin Powell and Mitt Romney and John Casick out of Ohio, who sort of like, where do I fit? Joel (41m 33s): And I think there are a lot of, I think I would probably put you in that group as I would probably put myself in and what happens to them? Do they be, you know, like you became a Democrat. So I think does more of those swing over to the, to the Democratic Party, do more Democrats, you know, white working class folks go to Republican know Trumpism and the Republican Party. The splintering is really interesting. And whereas I thought if Trump was going to be totally outed, a blue wave was going to happen and maybe Trump ism will die and Republicans will have a, a come to Jesus moment and, and get back to their roots that apparently is not going to happen. So what happens to that sort of traditional Jack Kemp, Ronald Reagan, Republican is really up in the air right now and that'll be sort of interesting to watch in my opinion. Chad (42m 21s): I think we thought that was going to happen in this election, but it didn't right. We thought that, the cult of personality, people were, the base were going to stay there, but everybody else was either going to do one or two things are going to not vote, or they were going to the, to join the Republicans, like, you know, the, the, the Lincoln Project or that the Democrats like the, the Lincoln project and so on and so forth. But that didn't happen. So, you know, I I'd like to say that I believe what you're feeling, but I can't, I just can't. Joel (42m 51s): Yeah. There's just going to be a new group of raging moderates, I think. Chad (42m 56s): Which is what we need right now, because we need moderates because everybody's on the fucking fringe, either on the left or the right. We need something to pull people back to the middle so that we can start the compromise that we haven't seen for shit at least eight. Joel (43m 13s): Yeah. Yeah. We'll give us your last loser. Chad (43m 15s): My last loser is the American worker. We can go ahead and, and kind of like put this off of prop 22, but without a unified and legislated approach to wages, equity, and transparency, we are going to continue down this rabbit hole of bullshit marketing and corporate gaslighting, which continues to funnel $2.5 trillion to the top 1% every year, without it ever trickling down to the middle and working class Americans. Companies say they want equity and diversity, although they aren't transparent. Chad (43m 55s): Well, you can't have it both fucking ways people you're either lying or you're transparent. And that is what we need to focus on to be able to help the American worker. But unfortunately, I think we've lost our way and prop 22 is that it is that signaling factor, I believe we are in big trouble in this country when it comes to workers. Joel (44m 19s): Yeah. And history is not very kind to empires countries, et cetera, that have this sort of divide between the haves and the have-nots. Chad (44m 28s): And it's getting bigger. Joel (44m 29s): Powder keg! Powder keg! Okay, my last one sort of, sort of fun, maybe. Pollsters. Pollsters are the big loser in this election. Good God we thought maybe they'd get their act together after the 2016. Psych! What is up with that industry? I mean, what I've read, it's a combination of like, no one has a landline anymore. Millennials don't answer the phone. If they don't know who you are, you know, the old days of like just going into the street and getting people's opinions, that doesn't happen anymore. So the whole, you either have to put a, you know, for, for entertainment purposes, only label on every pol;, or you really have to rethink how this business has done. Joel (45m 13s): Trafalgar seems to be like the only reputable company now doing it, the only one that's really even close. The other ones are really off and, you know, don't have a sustainable business if they keep getting shit this wrong election cycle after election cycle. So for me, pollsters. Chad (45m 33s): Come on Man. Joel (45m 34s): Let's take a break because this therapy session is going really well for me. And we'll talk Russians, sausage Kings, and crossbows stay tuned everybody! JobAdX PROMO (45m 45s): Your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. JobAdX (46m 12s): Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit? JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. JobAdX (46m 48s): Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at JobAdX.com that's JobAdX.com. Joel (47m 37s): As as bad as it is in America we're not whacking people with crossbows. It might be better if we did. Yeah. So check this news out. So a Russian oligarch reportedly nicknamed, the Sausage King, SHOUT OUT to Ferris. Bueller, was killed with a crossbow in his sauna after masked robbers broke into his home, investigators said Monday. The man and his wife were in their banya a traditional Russian sauna, outside Moscow when several masked men entered, tied them up and demanded, they give up the money kept in their home. Chad This is from the Russian investigative committee. Joel (47m 40s): So is there anything more Russian, than that shit? Chad (47m 44s): What I think happened really though, is Denzel Washington made that kill. You, have you seen the Equalizer? That was like the last part of the, the Equalizer. When I read this, I was like, Oh, that's fucking Denzel. Joel (47m 56s): Did he use a crossbow? Chad (47m 58s): No, but he could, because he was a master of all weapons. Joel (48m 2s): So a little, little funny story. When I lived in Phoenix, one day I went out for lunch and I was driving down the street and this is kind of timely because of Arizona freaking out over the election. But I was driving down the street and there was literally a dude, with a crossbow walking on the sidewalk! Like where else than fucking Arizona, will there be a crossbow armed dude, just walking down the street. And with that! WE OUT. Chad (48m 29s): WE OUT. Biden SFX: Come on, man. Come on, man. OUTRO (48m 33s): Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

More fun than a press conference at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping parking lot, Chad & Cheese bring plenty of red meat this week. We're talkin' big acquisitions, ousted CEOs, empowered women, and ticked-off Mexicans. It's gettin' loco out there, amigos, so take a break from the world and slide away to the sweet sounds of two middle-aged white guys from the American Midwest. It's a party, and Sovren, JobAdx, and Jobvite are bringing the appetizers. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. INTRO (2s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (21s): All right. All right. All right. Coming at, you live from the Four Seasons Total Landscaping in Philadelphia, PA it's the Chad and Cheese podcast AKA HR's most dangerous. I'm your cohost Joel "Podcaster Elect" Cheeseman. Chad (39s): And this is Chad "We're Peaking Again" Sowash. Joel (42s): And on this week show Smart Recruiters gets a new pal, Hired loses a CEO and Mexican presidents don't fuck around. Time to pay some bills, this beer is not going to by itself people. Jobvite (58s): Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com. Chad (1m 28s): Love that. SFX (1m 29s): We'll accept that. Yes. Joel (1m 32s): Which brings us to my first SHOUT OUT. Chad (1m 34s): Oh, Alex Trebek. Joel (1m 36s): Alex Trebek. Chad (1m 37s): Yeah. Oh man. My wife is hurting right now. She? Literally, I think she would, she would have left me for Alex Trebeck in a heartbeat or Sean Connery or Sean Connery. Joel (1m 48s): Does she prefer the mustachioed Trebek or the sans mustachioed Tribek. Chad (1m 53s): Do you like the mustached Trebek or the non mustached? (Chad's wife in background) Mustache? She likes the mustache. Joel (1m 59s): She likes the mustache? okay. Okay. I like the cleaner look myself. I like the, the more distinguished clean shorn Tribek and yes, Sean Connery as well. Our second favorite Scott next to Adam Gordon and entries and maybe third next to Mel Gibson are our second favorite scot. Chad (2m 20s): He's not a scot. Okay. he did play Braveheart. I get. Joel (2m 27s): Gordon gets so mad about us on Australian playing a famous Scot in history. But yes, two men that will be missed. I don't, I don't know of any like celebrity guests hosts. It was always Trebek like the dude was the iron man of game shows. Chad (2m 44s): Very impressive. Very impressive. I've got to say I'm I am sad that this week, and I know you are too Joel, that there are no listener questions. So I'd like to definitely make sure that listeners understand that joel loves to answers questions, so get some hard questions in here and we'll we'll ask Joe, he loves the, the diversity and equity questions the most though. President Trump (3m 6s): Don't be rude. Joel (3m 7s): Yeah. I love those. I love those. We allegedly have a new president here in America. The reign of terror from orange Hitler is over, we're we're hopeful. Anyway. So Biden and Kamala Kamala Harris. Dammit. I always make that mistake. Kamala Harris. Congratulations. Don't fuck it up. Chad (3m 27s): Does that mean not Nazi Barbie's not going to be on the TV anymore doing like press confeences? Joel (3m 33s): Nazi Barbie. That's nice. She has a nice leather skirt collection. I don't know. That must be a subscription model that she's yeah, the Ava Braun monthly. Chad (3m 47s): Oh, big SHOUT OUT to Nick Livingston CEO, founder, over at it's who mailed some bootleg bourbon balls. Did you get those yet? SFX (3m 58s): We'll accept that yes. Joel (3m 59s): Yes. Yes I did. I, I got to think because Nick is so square. He's so like by the rules that he wasn't going to ship alcohol for risk of like the feds showing up to his, to his house. So he, he went with the balls, the bourbon balls. So thank you. Thank you, Nick. Chad (4m 15s): I'll also in the mail Adzooma sent swag. Are you going to, are you going to go ahead and knock on the swag? Joel (4m 25s): No, you know, I'm a hard guy to fit, you know, I'm a big, I'm a big boy. I'm used to like getting XLs and then I just give it to my wife or my son is now like a large. He'll be the kid at school with like all these brands that no one knows of, which I feel for him. But yeah, it's, it's good stuff. I could always use more water bottles, pens and bottle openers. And who couldn't? Chad (4m 52s): Well, I liked it also, thanks to Adzooma for beer drop. And yesterday we had the beer drop tasting party and people, what does that? But we had Jennifer Shanahan, our first winner, she had about 20 beers that landed, dropped, beer drop on her front stoop. And we had an hour beer tasting with Chad and cheese and some of the, some of the dudes over at, at Adzooma. So we had a good time. So she had some one-on-one time with us. I don't know if that's good or bad. You're going to have to ask Jennifer. Joel (5m 26s): It was good. It was, that was fun. Like I think, I think I speak for everyone. Who's stuck in sort of a zoom business rut only talking about, you know, sales leads and you know, the bottom line. And, and it was just nice to like, I think four, eventually four of us were on this call, five of us, and it was just nice to hang out and have some beers and talk about everything from sports to weather, to clothing. To obviously we talked a little recruitment, but there's a void in my life. I think of socializing in that way. And if Chad and Cheese can help fix that void, that would be nice. But more on that later, right? Chad (6m 5s): That's right beerdropped.net kids. Because if you want to receive, you know, a bunch of beer for free on your front doorstep contactless , and then have a, have a little tasting with Chad and Cheese, a little, little, little one on two on one time, then go, go and register. Joel (6m 26s): And I think will be, we'll be selecting November's winter a couple of weeks. So there's definitely time to get into the mix here for November. Give extra Thanksgiving. If you're here in the States and you celebrate Thanksgiving in November, unlike those, those heathens in the North, Canada. Chad (6m 45s): And Steven Rothberg also sporting the Chad and Cheese t-shirt look, you're looking good. Boy, Chadcheese.com/free. That's where you can get the free Chad and Cheese emissary.ai powered t-shirts again. We are trying to make sure our listeners are getting beer making COVID a little bit easier getting Chad and Cheese t-shirts making COVID a little bit easier. Are we going to tell them about the new making COVID easier promotion? Joel (7m 15s): We sure can, but I do want to say goddammit Rothberg makes it into every show and I'm going to make sure he doesn't get in one of these weeks. Anyway, Stephen, we love you go. Vikings, right? Yes. So we're super pumped at our latest giveaway. So if you're a bourbon drinker, you already know, if you're not, you need to learn one of the most highly sought after bourbons in the world, Pappy Van Winkle's Family Reserve, this stuff is what, we've got is roughly $2,200 per bottle. And people like per bottle, that's retail. Like you pick up this stuff on the black market, you're going to pay three, four, five times that. Joel (7m 57s): All right. So who, who of our sponsors did we first think of to like back, you know, to like bank roll this thing, Robert Ruff. It was Robert, Robert Sovren. We initially wanted to give one away. He's like, yeah. Why not two, and throw in something else? So what we're doing is we're giving away one of two bottles of Pappy's and we're throwing in a Blanton's exclusive Japanese red label bottle. This thing retails for about 500 bucks. Wow. That's third place like bronze metal, my ass, give me some Blanton's Japanese exclusive. So, so if you want this, this is really easy to, to remember it's free Pappy P A P P Y.com go to freepappy.com. Joel (8m 45s): Give us your info. We'll put your name in the hat to win one of two, 2000 plus dollar bottles of Pappy's or if you're a loser. Yeah. If you're the loser, you get third place, a bottle of Blanton's that you frankly cannot find in probably any liquor store in the US yeah. Chad (9m 2s): I'm drooling over the Blanton's alone, but I got to give Robert big ups. He's always trying to up our bourbon game and it was an automatic it's like, let's talk to Robert about this. He's like, Oh, hell yeah. Pappy's? Let's do it. So once again, Chad and Cheese, given away free, t-shirts mailing to you, your front doorstep, beer front doorstep. Now Pappy Van Winkle. We have first, second and third place. The Pappy Van Winkle is $2,200 a bottle. Jesus. Anyway, we're, we're really excited. Freepappy.com. Joel (9m 40s): Have you had Pappy's before actually, Chad? Chad (9m 42s): I have not, have you? Joel (9m 43s): I have, when I was in Scottsdale, everyone's rich. Everyone's rich, but me, we had some rich friends and he had a bottle of Pappy's and it was quite nice. I can vouch for it's high dollar value. Chad (9m 55s): Like to also give a SHOUT OUT to Isabelle Kent, who is trying to turn me to the rye side of whiskey and Isabel, as soon as I can get a COVID shot, it's on. It is on, we're going to do bourbon versus rye. We're going to enjoy it. And it'll be hard to turn me to rye. I'm telling you that right now, but we're going to try this. Joel (10m 17s): Little, little boss hog might switch you over to the rye stuff. Little boss, hog, shout out to Vets. Goddammit. Veterans day in the U S was this week on Wednesday. Chad, our resident Vet. Chad (10m 31s): Thank you for everybody that did. Joel (10m 32s): You get a bunch of people say, thank you for your service. Is that, is that what happened? Chad (10m 36s): Yeah, I get, I get a bunch of that. So. Joel (10m 39s): Another SHOUT OUT for me, Jordan. Eleven's okay. We've both seen back to the future. One, two, and three, right? Part three. We got the hoverboard. We got the self-lacing Nike's well, they're, they're coming to fruition. Nike today announced the Jordan 11. This is , it laces itself up with an app. You can change the colors, like the primary colors of the shoe. I haven't seen this thing in action. I've only seen a picture, but God damn it. Nike keeps hitting it out of the park and dammit, if they're not making 2020 better, I want a pair of Jordan Eleven's except they're retailing at 500 plus dollars. Joel (11m 22s): So maybe not this year, maybe no one will wear these things except, you know, the super, super cool people with $500 to burn. But anyway, they'll eventually come down and be for dads. And there'll be like the Jordan 394 instead of the Eleven's and we'll be able to afford them. Chad (11m 40s): That is ridiculous. That is ridiculous. I'm coming back to earth here for a minute. So I'd like to give a SHOUT OUT to CVS health who have announced that Karen Lynch will be elevated to CEO making her the 40th female CEO on the Fortune 500 list, Lynch's currently the EBP of CA CVS health and president of Aetna, the insurance company that CVS bought in 2018. So great to see that seat flip per se, to a female. Joel (12m 14s): Very nice. So if you like news, if you like these alerts and things you're talking about on the show, you got to get Chad and Xheese in your pocket. Just text the letters, CC to (833) 799-0321 That's CC to (833) 799-0321 sponsored by our buddies at Emissary who provide text recruiting solutions. Now you can have us a buzzing in your pocket. Whenever a hot news story comes out about recruiting, or maybe if we're just giving away free bourbon, we'll let you know, and you can sign up. Chad (12m 47s): That's always a good thing too. One event next week, November 17th at 2:00 PM Eastern time Friendly Disclosure, Round 3, baby. The topic is robots versus humans where my buddy, Jim Stroud pleads his case on why robots, algorithms and automation will never take over recruiting. And I get to play the Andrew Yang card until Jimmy's wrong and why him and everyone else needs to get on board with universal basic income. So watch the socials and register. Joel (13m 23s): Do we have a tally? Is there a score card with you and Jim at this point? Like who's winning. Is there any kind of analytics around that? Chad (13m 31s): I don't think there's any analytics around opinion. Although if you watch, I mean, it's fairly simple. I win every time. Joel (13m 40s): Okay. So events for me, Recruiters Nation Live. This is Jovite's event that they normally have in beautiful San Francisco, California. Thanks to COVID. It is a virtual event. I'll be, doing a little 10 minute presentation with a little bit of five, five minute Q and A. So they understand that the low, you know, the low attention spans that we get online and they're shrinking the time down. So it should be a nice little, little, a little spit and a little education for people at the RNL live online. It's December 10th. I believe you can find out more at jobvite.com. GuestVoice - sounds like Ryan Reynolds (14m 15s): We'll accept that. Yes. Chad (14m 20s): Yeah. Joel (14m 20s): Smart Recruiters gets a new pal. Yes, It's dropped today. So we we're, this is sort of breaking news for a lot of people. Chad (14m 28s): So it is JobPal chat bot solution based out in Germany, Berlin, I believe. And by the way, SHOUT OUT to our boy Bill Bormans. So Bormann, I don't know if you remember from our naughty or nice show in December from, from Dallas, which I guess was outside of Canada. Our last American event, he talked about JobPal is one of his nice companies. So Bill kind of hit this one out of the park. So JobPal who had raised up to $3 million in financing is now a native chat bot provider for Smart Recruiters, who are calling this thing, Smart Pal, real creative, real creative so-so Smart Pal, native technology for, for chat bot, scheduling interviews, et cetera, prescreening, all the good things chat bots do. Joel (15m 19s): Obviously from my perspective, this is the battle of the platforms, just like Jobvite is buying up companies and iCIMS is buying up companies, smart recruiters, sort of that third player that Dr. Pepper and the ATS game, trying to be a one platform to rule them all. And chat bot is obviously something everyone is going to have to have. I guess, at a $3 million investment that Job pal was probably snapped up a lot cheaper than some of the state state engineered chatbots. So from all, from all points of view, this is a good, good buyer and probably a good price. Chad (15m 55s): I would think so. And I think that any, this is, this is going to be table stakes. For any core platform, you have to have conversational AI/chat bot RPA. This is going to have to be a part of it because you're going to have to provide a much better candidate experience. You're going to have to provide increased candidate conversions, the automated interview scheduling piece. I mean, all those different pieces that conversational AI can provide is going to have to be table stakes for a core platform. And it was smart. I mean, JobPal was integrated or is integrated with Taleo, Workday, SAP, averager cornerstone and obviously Smart Recruiters. Chad (16m 38s): So if you take a look at the playbook and the way that we've seen startups get acquired, it's fairly simple. You focus, you, you become very narrowly focused, unlike ALeo, you become narrowly focused and you work on integrations that make sense for you. These are not all of the core platforms that are out there. These are the ones that they were focusing on. And once they had clients who, who were on, I guess the, the biggest question for me though, Joel, is, you know, why JobPal and why not a smaller chat bot here in the US? Joel (17m 13s): Well, obviously very little was sort of shared on like price. And we don't, you know, I don't know the inner workings of JobPal and I mean, $3 million is not a huge amount of money. That sounds like almost seed funding for a, an operation like this smart recruiters tends to be a little bit more global focused than some other ATSs. So it doesn't surprise me that they would look into Europe for, for sort of bargains to provide this technology. And again, like you said, I mean, the beauty of being an ATS and having a marketplace is you get to see engagement usage, you get to see all the inner workings of a technology, and then you decide like, Oh, this works pretty well and it integrates with our shit pretty nicely. Let's do a deal. I mean, these global deals I think are gonna, are going to be more and more prevalent. Joel (17m 55s): I think, you know, States the state companies buying only companies from the States is going to be less and less of a thing. You're going to see more companies cross-pollinating, you know, from Australia and Europe and South America, more and more. So I think this is a trend that we'll see more of. Chad (18m 11s): If you take a look at it, WhatsApp, We Chat, Facebook messenger, or most of the Eurasia conversational AI and RPA companies had to figure out multiple messaging, messaging platforms much faster due to the choices that candidates had for conversations in their normal daily life. So I personally believe conversational AI or chat bots or RPA companies from across the pond have an edge on American startups because right out of the gate, they have to focus on how do we, how do we meet the market? Here in the US we've met the market one way for the most part SMS, being able to be a global player right out of the gate as a conversational AI platform. Chad (18m 57s): I think in this siloed area of conversational AI that Europe and Asia, they have an edge on the U S from a programmatic standpoint, I think, you know, or, or some of the other technologies, I think it swings back to the US but in conversational AI. Definitely. I think Eurasia. Joel (19m 17s): Yeah. I think one of the advantages of just sort of natively being from somewhere other than the US is you tend to start companies thinking about other languages and cultures and how is this product going to fit into other, other ecosystems? Whereas we, I think we tend to build stuff as English only, and then we sort of plug in, you know, other languages, you know, aside from that. So I do agree that that that is very important and certainly something that people should recognize. I do. I do wonder, you mentioned SMS, where do you think conversational AI leaves, the Techs Recruits, the Emissary's sort of the one-to-one texting platforms. Do you think their Passé, do you think they fit a certain niche, maybe that hard to get, you know, professional, whereas AI or conversational stuff is more high frequency recruiting, where do you think those two co-exist or do they? Chad (20m 11s): Yeah, they do co-exist. I think that when you're talking about having a market in the US there's a lot of money and there are a lot of use cases, right? And SMS is one hell of a use case for here in the United States. That's an entirely different discussion in Europe, right. Where there could be charging in some countries charging per, per text. Right? So that's why they use WhatsApp instead. So it, and I agree, I remember being at Monster and Monster creating a model and then trying to slam that exact same model into every country. They went into and saying, no, it'll work, no it'll work. They weren't looking at culture. They weren't looking at lifestyles. Chad (20m 51s): They weren't looking at how business was more were actually done in those countries. They just tried to slam the US version into it. And I think from a JobPal's standpoint, in this case in many European companies, they have to automatically, as you said, out of the box, think of all these different countries, lifestyle, so on and so forth. So they do have an advantage in some cases. Joel (21m 15s): Yep. Getting to people the way that they communicate and not email or InMail anymore so much is obviously important. And these platforms need to have that as a tool in the toolbox. Chad (21m 25s): Yes. And there was another acquisition. Joel (21m 29s): Yes. Another big one. Speaking of tools in the toolbox, we had one in the podcast world that you got pretty excited about. Chad (21m 36s): Yeah. Spotify acquires Megaphone. And this is a major acquisition as we talk about content. I mean, if you're in this industry, you're in any industry you're talking about content, and then you talk about obviously the different players in that content and how does it, how does it actually fit in? Well, in this case, when Spotify acquired Anchor, anchor.fm up another podcasting platform, everyone took notice because Spotify was obviously cementing themselves in podcast content. Then, they upped the ante with the acquisition of Gimlet Media, with podcasts like Homecoming, which turned into an Amazon original Sandra, Crimetown and a ton of others. Chad (22m 19s): But guests who Gimlet uses to host their podcasts? Joel (22m 24s): Is it Megaphone? Chad (22m 25s): It could be Megaphone. This content acquisition play is bigger than the other two can combined. First off Megaphone is a network podcasting platform, meaning unlike Anchor, who allows anyone on their platform, you have to be a legit podcaster in a legit podcast network, which is weird because I'm not sure we fit that, but Megaphone has Wall Street Journal podcast, Slate podcasts, Disney podcast, Gimlet. We just talked about Marvel podcast, Viacom, CBS interactive, and one of my favorite podcasts of all time, Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History. Chad (23m 7s): And that's just scraping the surface. So as we think about how we do our jobs here in the employment space and how we actually press content out there, how we become more genuine, man, if you're not thinking about podcasting or at least aligning yourself with a podcast, you are way behind the fucking eight ball. Joel (23m 29s): Yeah. So this was a $235 million deal. So as excited as we were about Joe Rogan for a hundred million dollars, this, this sort of door that, you know, to me, I think in addition to the content sort of the ad marketplace that Megaphone brought the table was incredibly appealing to Spotify. And you and I are old enough to remember when blogs were born, right? When blogs became a thing. And, and I speak from experience. The first ads on blogs were sort of these one 25 by one 25 banner ads in the sidebar of your blog, or you'd have like a leaderboard or a skyscraper. And you'd go to a company and say, Hey, do you want to sponsor my blog? Joel (24m 11s): And they'd give you a banner creative and you tell them click throughs. And ultimately that became what was Google's ad sets. So all these bloggers who didn't want to actually sell stuff, just put a piece of code in their blog from Google, and then Google started serving those ads and then paying them based on clicks and impressions eventually. And similarly podcasting is sort of going through a similar evolution. So, whereas, you know, now it's a lot of going to sponsors directly. A lot of podcasters don't want to do that shit, right? They just want to record their shit. And then if they can make some money. Great. So Megaphone has a really cool sort of marketplace where as an advertiser, you know, you upload your, your commercial, you pick channels and things that you want to make sure that your ad is placed on. Joel (24m 57s): So for Spotify to sort of create an automated podcasting ad sense, if you will, where podcasts can get paid more efficiently, and companies can advertise in a more streamlined fashion, I think makes a whole lot of sense and probably will make both Spotify and podcasters a lot of money. And don't forget, a lot of advertisers that used to spend money on things like conferences are going to be looking to new alternatives like podcasting. And if they can do that easily through the Spotify platform or Megaphone or however they build it, then that's a big win for, for everybody. Chad (25m 33s): Yeah. Yeah. And Megaphone is the third platform we've actually been on. And luckily we're with Evergreen. So we can actually get on this platform and it is fucking legit dynamic insertion of ads and those types of things. So I'm really excited to see where this goes and how the Spotify brand Actually takes us further. Joel (25m 55s): Right on. Right on. JobAdX (25m 56s): Whether you're struggling to fill high volume, hourly roles or looking for longterm full time talent, your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. JobAdX (26m 37s): We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit? JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at JobAdX.com. That's JobAdX.com. Joel (27m 16s): Tale of two CEO's this week. Chad (27m 20s): Yeah. Joel (27m 21s): So, so you got tipped off about Hired's CEO. We did a, we did a shred on this. So founded in 2012, these guys have raised 133 million or so dollars. Mehul Patel who's who was the former CEO came in in 2015 and he replaced the then CEO and co-founder Matt Mickiewicz I believe is how you say his name. This to me is, so of the two that we have, this one to me is the runway was shortening. Chad (27m 51s): Yes. Joel (27m 51s): When you, when you, when you get founded in 2012, you've got a six to eight 10. If you're lucky time, period, to have it liquidation event, either go public or get sold and Hired clearly is not on pace to do that. bviously COVID was a nice hiccup and all that. But to me, this was simply the guy in there wasn't getting it done. They needed to make a move. They have not named a replacement. As far as I know, if you go to their about us page, it's still Patel that's the CEO. So if you're looking for a CEO job call up Hired, they might, they might give you an interview. Okay. Chad (28m 27s): Yeah. They're probably trying to save that salary to be quite Frank. Yeah. It, they received the series D in June of 2018. I think it was like around 30 million or something like that. And it looks like they've been on a steady downward trend of losing employees. There are around 130 now. So I, I would predict that's going to continue. And you see companies like this, that they look really polished and they should, they've got a lot of fucking money. Joel (29m 3s): Yeah. These guys started primarily as sort of a way to find tech folks. Chad (29m 8s): Right. Joel (29m 8s): And in 2012, it was really hard to find tech people. You know, since that time we have the evolution of GetHub. We have the evolution of, of sourcing and finding pretty much anybody you want to find online. So in terms of trying to pivot and be some sort of an everything to everybody, I don't think they've ever really fit in. I mean, they should be a platform. They should have been eventually evolving into a place where they were a central technology to provide the ability to connect with all kinds of people, around the world. And they have never really gotten out of, I think, where they started. I don't think, you know, either one of us would claim to be an expert on Hired and the road that they've been on. Joel (29m 51s): But I think that their initial model has definitely faded in importance because of technology and being able to find people online. So, so good luck to them going forward. Chad (30m 1s): This should have been a tech staffing play. Joel (30m 3s): Totally. It should be stack overflow. It should have been something more competitive than what they're doing doing now. Chad (30m 9s): This should have been a play to automate for staffing to be able to increase margins. Joel (30m 13s): Yeah. Yeah. They're founder as well, I don't have his info in front of me, but he had been in some pretty high profile companies there in Silicon Valley. So a little bit, a little bit of it, might've been, you know, someone without a core competency and employment, just coming along and saying, Hey, I can raise a lot of money. I can help find tech people because we did it at my companies that I founded before. And we know that that usually doesn't end well, uncommon for a lot of people that come into our industry. Now, the second CEO that that has has left is a little bit near and dear to our hearts. So, so HiQ the, the hiQ labs versus LinkedIn drama continues. I actually just got an email back from, from one of their, their exact saying that everything is good, which I don't necessarily believe. Joel (31m 1s): They're still in court over LinkedIn, whether or not the Supreme court takes or not. I know they lost a recent battle in terms of antitrust. They tried to get LinkedIn to tie to antitrust cases, which I think the judge throughout we've sorta lost, lost track of this because of, I don't know, just various reasons, but their CEO who we've actually interviewed. So if you want to go back into the, the archives, Mark Wydick has left as CEO. Now he is full time now at a company called simple legal. I don't know if this is a case of just getting really tired from finding an 800 pound gorilla called Microsoft LinkedIn. It doesn't look good at the moment for hiQ labs. Chad (31m 44s): The hard part about any of these David and Goliath scenarios here in the United States is that the one with the most money usually wins. And that's the hard part. And as we try to talk about innovation, we try to talk about entrepreneurship. It's all really smoke and mirrors, if a big company wants to come and drink your milkshake, it's just all there is to it. So as we, you know, like to talk about David and Goliath scenarios, for the most part, if you have more money, you are going to win, much like we saw with prop 22. So I'm hoping because the SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the US), the SCOTUS decision was supposed to happen around October, sometime, obviously that didn't happen as this continues to get pushed off. Chad (32m 33s): Obviously it's much harder for a smaller organization to continue to operate. So, you know, I, again, really, we're in there for hiQ a hoping that SCOTUS can actually get a decision on this. And we can at least try to understand whether a person's information is their own or if Facebook and LinkedIn and all those other platforms actually own your shit. Joel (32m 58s): Yeah. Look, these, these big companies have armies of lawyers and their life. Their role in life is to crush anyone who doesn't have the resources to fight you. And the LinkedIn knew, even if LinkedIn isn't right, or when this court battle, they knew that if they just drag this shit out for years and years, that hiQ or any other startup wouldn't have the resources to fight them in a lengthy war and inevitably hiQ, they're going to go out of business and LinkedIn will win by default because there just won't be any case left to fight. And it's also really, it's unfortunate that there's a lot of fear in these kinds of situations. Joel (33m 40s): So anyone who's looking, anyone who gets a cease and desist from LinkedIn is really gonna think twice around, do we fight this or do we just shut the doors and go home or try to pivot somewhere else? The unfortunate truth is 99.9% are going to just close the doors or try to pivot. I applaud hiQ as I think you do as well for even fighting the fight. We'll see how it ends up. It's a real David and Goliath story, but in the real world, Goliath, 99 out of a hundred times, 999 out of a thousand times, wins this battle. And most of that time is just because of attrition. Chad (34m 15s): It's money, it's money. Joel (34m 17s): That's America. Chad (34m 18s): Well, hopefully we see something that's not running out of gas and that's women competing in the workplace. So Goldman Sachs study actually shows companies with more women in management have outperformed their male led peers. This is from Business Insider. So in a basket of 600 European stocks companies with more female leadership saw their share price outperform on average, by 2.5% a year, compared with companies with less women leaders. Having a greater proportion of women in senior senior leadership positions is not just a diversity score to target, but is associated with lower cost of equity, stronger share price performance, and lower volatility of shares. Chad (35m 13s): The hard part about this is then as we talk about CVS seating, number 40 of female CEOs, that's 8% of the fortune 500 CEO positions when just here in the US females comprise 51% of the population. And there's also another story that shows female led startups have been disproportionately low over the years and actual funding. The number of unicorn private companies valued in excess of 1 billion, headed by women have grown over five fold. Chad (35m 57s): So even though these females are getting a lot less money and there are fewer of them, they are kicking ass and taking names on the startup front as well. So the big question is why, why is there such such disparity? Joel (36m 13s): I tend not to focus on the disparity as I do the trend and everything is going on the right side of history with this. So if you look at, you know, I think it's 70, some percent of valedictorians in high school are females. I think 56% of college graduates now are females. We look at role models, whether it's the current vice president, you know, the world is trending towards women and that's going to happen regardless. I don't know if COVID, is increasing the pace at which this is happening. I guess time will tell on that. But I just, I think there are entrenched cultural behaviors that are hard to crack, but eventually they do crack and crumble and females getting into the business world in a big way and having influence in a big way. Joel (37m 6s): I think it's indicative that that Europe is such, I guess, a beacon for what's going on, whether it be in government or in corporate corporate life, that women are taking such a forceful role and an important role in terms of how companies and governments are being shaped, good old America tends to be behind trends like that. And this is no different, but I think eventually, you know, that that wall will crumble. The glass will break. I think we're seeing it happen maybe too slow for most people, but it is happening. Chad (37m 39s): The world economic forum projects is going to take 257 years at our current rate to close the gender pay gap. So should females wait another 257 years to actually close the hiring gap? I mean, I appreciate adding three seats, I think three or four seats just this year, but that at that rate, that is not something that we can applaud or get behind it. This has to happen at a faster rate and to be quite frank when we have 40 females that are a top fortune 500 companies, not one of them, zero are black females. Chad (38m 20s): So what this tells, what is this telling our kids? What is this telling the rest of the world, about us in America? Again, beating our chest saying we're so damn good at everything, but we can't even get equity done right? Joel (38m 33s): You know, vote with your wallet, buy from companies, that champion, this movement and how we do that. Exactly. The, I don't know. I mean, obviously the, the pay gap that you, that you referenced is real and it's huge, and it's unfortunate. What's going to speed that up. I'm not an expert on that topic or how that, that does. We've interviewed people that think they know, but just giving money to a certain, a certain segment of the population and saying, start businesses is harder to do than say, so it's a complex problem. And I'm not sure either one of us are gonna figure it out on an hour long podcast. Chad (39m 10s): Transparency's key. As soon as we can see the workforce composition, and we can start to see the actual angles of those individuals who are getting promoted and also those wages, then everything becomes a hell of a lot more simple. It's complex because we don't have the information. Joel (39m 28s): We don't have the data. As soon as we have that, everybody, everything becomes crystal fucking clear. Amen. Well, speaking of data, yes, let's hear from Sovren. And we'll talk about Mexico. Sovren (39m 42s): You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match. The sovereign engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren matching isn't some frustrating black box, "trust us, it's magic," Sovren (40m 25s): one shot deal. Like all the others now with Sovren matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel (40m 40s): And hopefully that dinner has Mexican food on the menu cause that's my personal favorite. Chad (40m 45s): And Pappy! Joel (40m 46s): And Pappy, yeah. Good luck, finding a restaurant outside of Kentucky with Pappy in the bar. So it's good to know that the US is not the only country that's having issues with contract workers. We talked about prop 22 last week with Uber and Lyft and others. Mexico has certain issues with, they call it outsourcing, which is essentially contract workers. And the it's so bad. The Mexican president is threatening to ban the whole thing. Like no contract workers whatsoever. Now companies are apparently really abusing the shit in terms of giving benefits and, and, you know, annual pay, pay commissions, and benefits one company that is really scrutinized at the moment, apparently off everybody that was a contract worker in November, and then hired them all back in February. Joel (41m 40s): And the reason they did that was because they, they didn't want to pay them their annual sort of commission. So that's sort of what they're dealing with there, obviously some serious pay issues in Mexico, the minimum wage, there is $5.50 cents per day, which is yes, if you're doing the math well under a dollar per hour. So anything that's cruise the workers is a big, bad thing. And the Mexican president is hoping to change that around obviously, companies aren't too happy about it. We'll see how that plays out. Chad (42m 15s): Yeah. So the Mexico's Employers Federation, a business group said, quote, this would have a great impact on the already seriously deteriorated economic situation and would mean the loss of considerable number of legitimate and properly paid jobs. So we see this exact kind of shit here in the US where companies, engineer excuses to pay people an incredibly low wage while their profit margins grow. So overall, the wage gap turns into a wage chasm and we relegate more humans to poverty. And the thing that I don't get is that, you know, we, we only get one life, right? Chad (43m 0s): I mean, all of us, unless you believe in reincarnation, but we only get one life and thinking about a family living in poverty in Mexico or United States, while others are buying yachts and multiple homes, I mean, again, I think we really have to focus on our humanity overall and making sure that we are not leaving people behind, but yet we're giving them an opportunity to lift themselves up and not paying them substandard wages. And you can see that's exactly what's happening in Mexico as well. Joel (43m 34s): Workers of the world unite, I believe in reincarnation because I want to come back as my dog because he lives large. Chad, we out. Chad (43m 44s): We out. OUTRO (44m 7s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

It's the podcast where the hosts are always socially distant, or at least mentally distant. This week on The Chad & Cheese Podcast, - iCIMS is taking no prisoners, making another acquisition, - OutMatch says, "Two can play that game." - Earnings out from Indeed and Glassdoor parent company Recruit Holdings, and... - Google faces the music in Europe as job board owned take aim with accusations of antitrust. Want more? The boys also chat about Canadian robots, Northwest Arkansas and mountain bikes. Hold on to your poutine and grab a cold one on this Happy Hour edition of HR's most dangerous podcast, always sponsored by Sovren, JobAdx and Jobvite. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire. INTRO (1s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (20s): Poor me another beer baby. This podcast will never be locked down, but it's much better when the hosts are socially distanced. Chad (30s): Yes! Joel (31s): Hey boys and girls, this is a happy hour edition of the Chad and Cheese podcast, or at least that's what we're calling ourselves after the recount. I'm your cohost Joel "Release the cracken" Cheesman Chad (43s): And I am Chad "Mind Hayes" Sowash. Joel (47s): And then on this week show iCIMS marks another one off, off of its shopping list, European job boards and Canadian robots, and forget Portugal we're moving to ArKansas and becoming little rock stars. Get it Little Rock, okay. Time to pay some bills. We'll be back. Jobvite (1m 5s): Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com. Chad (1m 35s): So Joel, the why the after hours recording? Joel (1m 38s): Oh, sleep deprived and halfway to drunk, which is why the opening sucks so bad. So my three-year-old had a tonsillectomy yesterday, which was fun. So had to take care of him, had to restock the ice cream, you know, cuddles and cartoons. And so we're opting for the happy hour edition of the show, which I'm not hating on, cause we get to drink beer and talk shop, which is yeah. Chad (2m 6s): So with that being said, what are you guys looking to do for Thanksgiving? Because we're all supposed to be responsible, respectful, all that other fun stuff. What are you guys looking to do for Turkey day? Joel (2m 18s): Yeah. It's just the family. I'm lobbying for beef Wellington. We'll see. We'll see if I win that one or not. It's probably going to be Turkey breasts and stuffing, but you know, a boy can dream. Beef Wellingtons are my favorite. Chad (2m 35s): Well, I got to say a big SHOUT OUT to Julie and her team, they did a Thanksgiving alternative for her whole team that works together. It was a friend, it was a Friendsgiving and what they did was pretty awesome. So Julie's obviously the boss. So what she did was she bought food for everybody. It was all sent out to everyone. We all got on a Microsoft Team meeting. We cooked it together. Everybody was in their kitchens. After that, we played it. It showed it the beautiful plates. And then we all sat in our dining rooms and we ate together, we talked and we had a Thanksgiving, but just virtual. Chad (3m 21s): It was really fucking cool. I got to give a big applause to her and her team for actually coming up with something like that. Socially distant, smart, but yet to getether. Joel (3m 33s): So you had a Thankszooming, essentially. You need to trademark that, buy the domain, something, very nice. Well, let's get to SHOUT OUT. Shall we? Chad (3m 42s): Yes. Come on, man. Joel (3m 44s): I'll start with Craig Fisher, friend of the show, Craig Fisher our final event in person of 2019. Greg Fisher is now CEO of KNACK. That's K N A C k.io. I don't think it's Nackio, although I have a knack for adding the IO on the end. See what I did there. It's an engineering kind of job board thing is the best I can explain it. I'm sure. We'll see Craig at some point and get the dealio, but that's kind of a big deal, CEO. Chad (4m 11s): Kind of a big deal, start up. Yeah! Joel (4m 12s): Yeah. It's an also Shally Steckerl. I'll throw in a couple of old friends of the show. Chad (4m 17s): Dude where's he been? Jesus. Joel (4m 19s): So yeah, I know, right? He's a full-time employee at Newton talent RPO solution and they've joined forces to create power sourcing.com has taken his educational chops over to Newton to educate the folks out there that want sourcing information. But two friends of the show that have landed in alternate universes and SHOUT OUTs to both of those boys. Chad (4m 44s): Well Shally, hopefully after that long nap, you're ready for a new adventure. My friend, SHOUT OUT to Mike. Joel (4m 52s): That's not nice. Shally napping. Why is everyone napping for you? Are you like never sleeping? Chad (5m 3s): I never sleep Cheeseman. Joel (5m 4s): Oh, I know. Chad (5m 6s): SHOUT OUT to Mike Weston for creating the Dr. Evil mini Me Hard Knock Life video using Ethan Bloomfield's face on both Dr. Evil and mini me Mike Whiston has nothing better to do, but I'm telling you right now, it was so fucking hilarious. I've already watched it like a dozen times. Joel (5m 24s): Do that face replace app or whatever it's called. That thing has got to go. Joe Lockwood did one. It's just like, come on man. It's yeah, I got nothing. But whoever invented that is evil. Evil, evil, evil. Chad (5m 38s): Evil genius. Joel (5m 40s): Okay. SHOUT OUT to Pfizer and Moderna, I don't know if you've heard this, but they're a, they're saving the world. Chad (5m 46s): Give me the shot! Joel (5m 46s): ... with capitalism. 95% effective, coming to an arm near you, soon. 2021 if we're lucky vaccine time, baby, let's get this gets to get the show back on the road. Chad (5m 59s): Give me the shot motherfuckers. Again, another SHOUT OUT to Nick Livingston, the CEO of hone it. He gets a double SHOUT OUT for those crazy addictive Bourbon balls. So Julie doesn't it even like bourbon and she had two, I had to hide them. Come on, man. If anybody's out there, they're looking for holiday gift ideas. We're not getting commission guys or referral bonuses or anything like that. This is just a core Joel (6m 25s): Or begging for more balls. Chad (6m 27s): We'd like chocolate salty balls. What we're looking for, go to bootlegbourbonballs.com. They are amazing. Amazing. Thanks Nick. Joel (6m 42s): Thanks Nick. That was good. Yeah. My wife has a chocolate hound in, but she hates bourbon. So it's the about the only chocolate treat that I've had in a while. And you know, my midsection needs more chocolate shout out to Jobboard Doctor cause I'm just sick of Steven Rothberg SHOUT OUs. He had a nice article called Tale of Two Job Boards this week where he, I don't know, he took a Dice and Upwork's recent earnings calls and talked about how one really sucks ass. Chad (7m 9s): Dice. Joel (7m 10s): And Art Zeal we're still waiting for you to come on the show and Upwork gig economy, rock and rockin' the shit out of a its stock price and value. So Tale of Two Job Boards, if you haven't checked it out, go, go read that and learn something, kids. Chad (7m 23s): Remember when Art was at a TA tech and we like stood up and said, Hey, dude, we want to interview you. And he ran. I mean, he, it was almost like he literally, okay, so maybe it was like a, it was a power walk. Let's just say that. Didn't see the guy again. Joel (7m 37s): Art! More like Dart, you know what I'm saying? Chad (7m 40s): SHOUT OUT to Germany. So Germans put off COVID criminals Joel, and it's hilarious! Germany calls on it's young to be the COVID heroes of 2020, by staying on their sofa. This is an awesome and a smart commercial. It has this old man, and they're actually looking back to 2020 when he was 22 in college and what he did for the country, which was nothing sitting on his couch, eating pizza. It is hilarious video, but it, it is something that we need to really focus on. Yes, it is a bit staying inside, but guess what? Chad (8m 21s): I want to travel. We just canceled a goddamn trip to Santa Fe and in Portland. But guess what guys I'm staying home because that's the responsible and respectful thing to do. And Germany knows it. Joel (8m 34s): Yeah. And I was watching the news. I know that's surprising for me, but apparently Germany is getting its American on by having protests and throwing rocks because of the, the most recent lockdown. So, you know, what are you going to do? Germany. Get your shit together. SHOUT OUT to two 800 pound gorillas with some revolutionary technology. You're going to love this. We forgot to make fun of LinkedIn's new profile frames. I don't know if you've seen this, but if you're open to work, you can flip the switch and haveyour profile pic framed with a nice green "ready to work" or "open to work" icon. And if you're an employer, you can flip the switch and have your profile pic framed with "we're looking for employees." Joel (9m 19s): So another revolutionary, revolutionary technology from LinkedIn and also Twitter has launched Stories or they're calling them fleets. I believe Twitter fleets. So, these tweets that disappear after a while. So Twitter and LinkedIn keep on rockin' baby, the tech is awesome. Chad (9m 42s): Then also intro, their video intro. This feature will give people a leg up in the process, apparently because they get to video themselves. The thing is, I mean, we already have enough bias in the world. The last thing we need to do is impart more, more reasons for somebody not to talk to you right? Now I appreciate video in the interview process. We've got to get a better handle on how we use these different mediums. Joel (10m 14s): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just cause your phone has a camera it doesn't mean we have to go nuts with it people. Chad (10m 19s): No. Joel (10m 20s): I'm going to go, I'm going to go free. Let's start the free ride. So if, if you're like free beer and who doesn't make sure you sign up for beerdrop, we've partnered with AdZooma to give free beer. And I'm not talking about a six pack of PBR people. I'm talking about a case plus of good craft beer. Chad (10m 38s): Yeah. Craft beer from around the globe. Joel (10m 41s): Good stuff. Go to beerdrop.net. Give us your address. We promise not to stalk you, only send you the gold liquid called beer, beerdrop.net by Adzoona check it out folks. Oh man. Chad (10m 55s): Not to mention, we're going to go ahead and continue the alcohol trip that we're on. Why not? You can go to freepappy.com. That's right. Free Pappy P A P P Y. And that Pappy stands for Pappy Van Winkle kids. We're talking about a bottle of bourbon you can't even find. It's mythical. It's like a goddamn dragon. You can't find the shit, but guess what? Chad and Cheese did. They're $2,200 per bottle. We have two bottles to give away. We also have third prize. Get this not steak knives. No we're talking about Red Label Blanton's Bourbon. Joel (11m 39s): Oh shit. Chad (11m 42s): It's crazy. $500! Joel (11m 44s): It's a win-win-win situation. Chad (11m 46s): Free Joel (11m 46s): It's only possible because of our buddy at Sovren. Love those guys. We said, Hey, give away a bottle. They said, fuck that we're giving away three bottles. How about that? Pappy Van Winkle's Family Reserve. Even if you don't drink bourbon, just invest this shit. Put it away in a lock box and take it out in 10 years and pay for your kid's college. That's what I'm talking about. Chad (12m 8s): Drink the goddamn bourbon. Joel (12m 10s): Or drink it. Share with us. Chad (12m 12s): And last but not least always, you can always go to Chadcheese.com/free to get yourself into all of these free registrations. Not to mention, I've got to say, let me take a deep breath. Joel (12m 27s): Yep. Chad (12m 28s): New Chad and Cheese website design and built by Shaker Recruitment marketing: Mindy, Keegan, Jeremy, Bob, Tom and obviously the big man, Joe Shaker for allowing his people to work with a couple of knuckleheads with a vision. We really appreciate it. We have done at total redesign of the website, Netflix style, and we're really excited for people to interact. Joel (12m 55s): And I'm, I'm pretty sure it still has the free page, right Chad? so if you want like a free Tee, free alcohol, free swag or given all kinds of stuff where it's the holiday season and we are giving, giving podcast or so head out to Chadcheese.com. Look at the redesign, give us some feedback. I just sent out five or six t-shirts today. So that's what I'm talking about. It's a Joel Santa Claus over here and in central Indiana. Chad (13m 22s): Nice. Right up in the upper NAF where it says free. Yeah, just click it. There you go. Yep. Joel (13m 27s): And, and, and if you don't have us in your pocket, people real quickly text CC to (833) 799-0321 sponsored by Emissary. Our buddies are letting us send news alerts directly to you, which we got a lot on the show today. But if you don't want to wait until Friday to hear this stuff, get it on your phone. Text CC to (833) 799-0321. Chad (13m 57s): One that's right people because you've been so good to us. We're giving away T-shirts! We're giving away beer! We're giving away Pappy's and Blanton's and free texting shit! Guys. We love you. Thanks for listening! TOPICS! Bell (14m 14s): Ding, ding, ding! Joel (14m 16s): ICIMS bringing the pain. Chad (14m 18s): Good God. Joel (14m 18s): Did you, did you attend their event last week? Chad (14m 21s): I did! I did. Joel (14m 21s): While, I was dealing with tonsils, so I didn't, I wasn't able to. Chad (14m 24s): Yeah, no, I, I did. It was, it was very smooth. I was very impressed with the production itself. They had Richard Sherman do like a commercial for them. I'm like, what the fuck? Richard Sherman. So they had ... Joel (14m 38s): He plays football, Adam Gordon. He plays American football. Chad (14m 42s): Trevor, Mindy. I mean, they had all these big names and it was very fluid with the content, not to mention they music, Lloyd, I can't remember his name, great music. I remember making lunch while he was playing his guitar. But anyway, it was a great experience. Joel (15m 0s): I'm sorry. Hold on. Making lunch while playing guitar. Chad (15m 4s): I was making lunch. Oh, they were on a break and they were playing. He was playing right. And I'm like, Oh man, this is great for lunch. So I just took him with me with my computer, went to the kitchen, made lunch while I'm sitting there listening to this amazing music. Joel (15m 20s): Yeah, Okay. Chad (15m 21s): This is about an experience and trying to pull things together and I think they did a really good job. Joel (15m 27s): Cool, cool. I'm sorry. I wasn't able to, to attend, but I'm sure it was awesome there. I didn't hear virtual bartender in your, in your description, but you know, that's always nice too, but they, they dropped some mad news during this week. The number one news story was their acquisition of Easy Recrue. Chad (15m 46s): Yes. Joel (15m 47s): If you don't know them, they're the European leader in video interviewing and digital assessment capabilities. We just talked about Smart Recruiters, making a big chat bot acquisition while hold my beer says iCIMS. Now they have a native chat bot too, as well as an interview scheduler, the AI-driven video interviewing language assessments and career management solutions. They allow customers to optimize and digitize their hiring internal mobility and employee career development. It's like, I'm almost reading a press release. I'm so knowledgeable about this stuff. Your thoughts? Chad (16m 22s): So the biggest sell here is video interviewing because Easy Recrue, which the name itself I've always hated, but again, the name has nothing to do with them getting acquired. But the biggest sell here is the video interviewing slash recruitment module I believe, because remote work isn't going away, it's just going to grow. So that just made that made a lot of sense, a very smart and bold European and beyond expansion because they have offices in Paris, Milan, Madrid, Warsaw, in Dubai. They're approaching 500 clients, which probably most of them aren't iCIMS clients so that's, that's always another, another good step. Chad (17m 5s): Nearly a hundred and staff, a very, from my understanding and from what I'm hearing from sources, a very savvy sales organization. But I think once again, the very big key here is the interviewing piece, but also to see an American company not trying to slam their model or their tech into foreign countries, very smart to find out ways of purely pretty much finding out which companies are killing it in innovating in different countries, acquiring them instead of forcing their model. And we talked about this last week, that was one of the issues that monster had. Chad (17m 49s): They had American model, they tried to slam it in every single different foreign location. And it didn't work. This is finding out what works and acquiring instead of just trying to be that hammer when you need a screwdriver. Joel (18m 4s): Yeah. Big ups to iCIMS. I mean, they've gotten out of their Jersey comfort zone, if you will. And really, really, really grown up into a global footprint, this actually triple sort of the size of the organization, you know, a few notable acquisitions recently Text Recruit, which goes back a few years. Opening we applauded extensively our buddy Andrea, former death match winner. They really turned it up. And they've also announced today. We, we don't win. We didn't get time to sort of dig into it, but Vizier, a people analytics tool they've announced a partnership with them as well. So this, this to me goes just full on with the whole a one platform to rule them all. Joel (18m 46s): And these guys Smart Recruiters, iCIMS Jobvite, et cetera, are just buying up companies left and right. Shopping spree, they want to be the one solution for everybody. And thanks to the pandemic, it looks like a lot of people are open to selling and the prices are right. So this shows no signs of slowing down. The acquisitions are a happening folks. Chad (19m 7s): And I like to say we dropped Susan Vitale's podcast today, the interview that we had with her, had a great interview! And she actually said that we didn't give Mike Wilczak the guy who's in charge of M and A enough props. So I wanted to say, good job, great job, Mike Wilczak. This is all you, I'm sure. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. I know that the iCIMS team is, they're working on this and Mike definitely a leader in that space. Joel (19m 35s): Yeah. And by the way, Jobvites annual event is in December. So look out for some out announcements in early December from them. Chad (19m 43s): Yeah, those guys, those guys, K one roll up. I mean, it's just, there's so many cool things happening in this industry right now. I can barely, I can barely restrain myself, other than just drink my beer. Joel (19m 56s): Have a bourbon ball and relax my friend. Let's get to the next big acquisition this week. Out Match and Checkster. Any thoughts on that one? Or what's going on with that? Chad (20m 7s): Yeah. Rubicon, private equity firm acquired Outmatch in March. Then they acquired Launchpad in September. Now an automatic or automated reference checking platform, Checkster. I think from my standpoint, this is pretty clear. PE is trying to ball something up that they can package and sell. An end, more of like a quote unquote "end-to-end" solution on the site. It says recruitment simplified through automation and AI transform your recruitment experience without changing your applicant tracking system. The question is will an applicant tracking system buy into something like this to be able to catch up to maybe an iCIMS? Chad (20m 51s): Maybe? I don't know, but this is to me, makes for all the packaging for an acquisition in PE you know what they're looking for? Joel (21m 1s): Yeah. I mean, this was a, so they poured $8 million into this thing in 2015, just, just balls of steel. They've been buying up companies. You mentioned Launchpad, Checkster. Another one that happened in October was Furst Person Testing Company, which Chad (21m 19s): F U R S T, Furst, Jeff Furst, Joel (21m 24s): Who I knew back in the mid aughts as well as, as well as Eve at Checkster. I remember sitting down with Eve to talk about Checkster before he launched it. And it was kind of a joke because it was a play on either Jobstr or Friendster. I don't know which, but, but good for him. It's been a long time coming that, that came out. But yeah, this is like, we're gonna, we're going to swing for the fences. Outmatch CEO, Greg Moran, who balls of steel on this organization said quote, integrating Checksters technology into our talent decision platform. That's a mouthful will eliminate log jams and the recruiting process that frustrate both recruiters and candidates while infusing more data for recruiters to identify the best talent. Joel (22m 7s): So Outmatch is one to watch. They got some big ambitions. They're making, making a lot of moves. We'll keep our eye out on them and report on what they're doing. But yeah, they're either. Yeah. They gotta be building themselves up for a nice little acquisition or shit who knows? IPO down the road. Who knows? Chad (22m 25s): No, no, no, this is, this is a big, pretty bow. And it's like, come at me motherfuckers. Yes. Joel (22m 35s): Yeah. I guess 8 million. Isn't going to prime it for an IPO, but it's a great domain. Chad (22m 40s): So there there's another great domain that is attached to some, some big numbers, I guess this last week. Joel (22m 48s): Sure. So Recruit Holdings, Japanese company, a quartered that owns Indeed and Glassdoor, which we talk about a little bit on the show, just a little bit. So they reported earnings. They are a public company out in Japan anyway. So Recruit Holdings saw a quarterly revenue fall 6.2% a year on year, which is quite a bit of money for a company that size. While the company managed to bring operating expenses down, falling revenue caused operating income to plummet 32.7%. Ouch! Revenue and recruits quote-unquote "HR technology segment," they own a lot of companies, but this segment includes Indeed and Glassdoor fell half of half that to 3.1%. Joel (23m 30s): The revenue decline in the HR technology business, which again includes Indeed and Glassdoor was primarily caused, said the company by decreased demand for sponsored job advertising, no shit, candidate sourcing and screening solutions, as well as employer branding products. So little drop in demand leading to a 3.1% decline. Your thoughts. Chad (23m 52s): Yeah. This is momentary. Joel (23m 53s): A bump in the road. If you will, Chad (23m 55s): This is a bump. This is definitely a bump. But, but I have to say that a lot of what Indeed, a lot of the spaghetti the Indeed's been throwing on the wall, has been total shit. Yeah. You know it, and I appreciate the R and D guys I really do. And I always talk really harshly about Indeed, but I've got to say that I appreciate the R and D, but what I would like to say much, like what you're doing with flex, right, is that you are forgetting who you are. That's the problem with Indeed right now. They they've forgotten who they are. They forgotten the soul of the Trojan horse and who they should be. And I think that's their problem. Chad (24m 36s): Not to mention, I wonder how much money they could save if they actually sold those Austin offices that they're just newly built and allowed people to go allowed people to go, you know, remote. Joel (24m 50s): Torchy's and work at Torchy's. Chad (24m 52s): That's exactly right. Yeah. Unfortunately they, they, they are a very, a very iron fist type of a sales organization. So most people should be used to the lash by now. Oh, Joel (25m 6s): I'm ready for a quick break. And I'm going to open up another cold one. Let's say for JobadX, and we'll talk about something that Indeed's really excited about Google antitrust. JobAdX (25m 16s): Your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit? JobAdX (25m 57s): JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at JobAdX.com that's JobAdX.com. Chad (26m 33s): I think I smell acquisition there. Joel (26m 38s): Do you? Are you hearing, hearing some buzz around that too? Yeah, well, we'll see. We'll be the first to report it. Hopefully. Anyway, poor, poor Google, Chad, you know, Chad (26m 50s): Man, I feel so bad for them. Joel (26m 52s): More, more complaints and the, this bunch of socialists bastards. So spend the news this week, a group of 135 internet companies, including Job Boards, although we're not quite sure how many as well as 30 industry groups sent a letter to the EU commissioner for competition, raising concerns about Google and what they say are anti-competitive practices harming their business. This is a quote from the story, or actually from the letter that they sent quote, "while we compete amongst ourselves for the best consumer experience, there is one common competitor that does not compete fairly, Google. We all face strong competition from Google and our respective search services and markets. Joel (27m 36s): Google has entered each of these markets by leveraging its unassailable dominance in general internet search to gain a competitive headstart to quickly gain market shares." Chad (27m 48s): Come on, man. Joel (27m 49s): Quit ganging up on Google. Chad (27m 51s): They're comparing Google shopping with this move and from the outside, the comparison makes sense, but digging in Google shopping was fined in the EU for strong arming advertiser advertising partners with exclusivity and in blocking their competitor. So this isn't, this doesn't seem like the same thing at all. So if you're looking from the outside in you're like, Oh yeah, no, that makes sense. You dig in. You're like, no, this isn't the same thing. So who's being blocked out? I checked Google for jobs in the UK. I'd actually did a search in the UK and my search deliver jobs from Reed, total jobs, job today, and a long list of other jobs. Chad (28m 34s): So I don't understand what the end game here is. And I, and I really think we should bring somebody on the show. Who's a part of that list of, of companies who, who sent this letter, because I don't understand what the end game is. If you killed Google for jobs, you allow Indeed to continue to own the organic, right? Joel (28m 53s): Yeah. I mean, I think, I think a lot of this stems from Yelp and what Google has done to Yelp. Google by all accounts is more of an ad engine than it is a search engine, these days. And there's this thing called no click search, which is a real big thing with SEO is which basically says many Google searches. Now give you the answer within Google. So you don't even have to go to that, you know, a food network site to see what a recipe is for lasagna, which I love a good lasagna. Chad (29m 24s): You have to apply. That's the thing you can't apply on Google. Yeah. Joel (29m 29s): I mean, so that's, so that's what it is today, but what is it in the future? And I think, I think some of these companies are, are really nervous about what Google for jobs or whatever search it is in terms of the classifieds, areas, of what Google is going to be? And if it's going to be something similar to the Yelp killer that it's been at least in the US, then that is obviously going to scare some folks in the employment side. There's also this whole thing of Europe that is much friendlier to complaints like this versus the United States. So I think in part, this is like jobs just sort of jumping into the fray and signing this complaint, which is probably more relevant to other businesses because you know, why not? Joel (30m 12s): What's the worst that could happen. So I think ultimately Google will pay a fine, they'll put the shit in courts around Europe and not much is going to happen to it, but there's a real issue with Google, not being a search engine, like having all the answers themselves. And that's largely driven by, they're better at mobile. A lot of sites suck at mobile, the experience is a little bit better. You look at voice search. So it was asking Google, you know, what's the capital of Istanbul. Chad (30m 36s): You don't have a crystal ball to be able to say what they're going to do in your future. So your evidence that you have right now, okay, let's, we're not talking futurescape, we're talking about right now. What they have right now is a search within a search. And if you just go back directly, specifically to the organic, then you're pretty much giving way to Indeed. Now here in the US, some job sites have actually seen a rise in traffic from Google, for jobs after the implementation. So I mean, the question is which devil do you give into? Do you trust Indeed, fuck No, I don't trust Indeed. Do you trust Google? Chad (31m 17s): Well I trust Google? As long as I have evidence to trust them, because if they do make the shopping leap, then I can take them to court. But right now you don't have the evidence. Joel (31m 28s): Sure. And that doesn't stop Donald Trump from suing everybody to try to win this election. When everyone knows the election's over. Ultimately what everyone is scared of in the classifieds category. And in regards to jobs, is that look the best place to look for a job and apply for a job and get information about a job is a company's website. And for years, those company websites have not been on Google's radar whatsoever, which is so these job boards have been able to gain the system in terms of SEO, drive the traffic to them, or pay for Google traffic, which they haven't before. So now they look at this. Now they look at this vertical search that, that Google actually says, Oh, here's the company website to apply to this job. Joel (32m 11s): And that fucks everybody from a financial situation. So if you're, if you're following the money, these folks are scared to death that all these job seekers are going to bypass their job board and apply directly to the company, which let's be honest, that's the best experience for the job seeker. But as a business owner, it scares you to death. And when you're scared, what do you do? You call the lawyers and try to get things, you know, resolve that way. Will it work? Probably not. Will it stall it, keep them a business for a little bit longer, probably. But yeah. Ultimately like the market is going to work out even in Europe and Google will probably still be able to have Google for jobs and they'll drive more and more traffic directly to company websites, which are good for companies because now they can save more money and job boards will, will slowly die. Chad (32m 60s): Yeah. I Have to say that employment employment websites are becoming better, but they're still shit for the most part, not all, but for the most part, going to these different job boards or these different job sites are actually better experiences. Yeah. They'll have to evolve. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, just from my standpoint, I don't totally understand, which is one of the reasons why I want to get some of the, one of these organizations, the CEO from one of these organizations on, because overall it's like, if you beat this and they take it off the search page, which is really what you're asking them to do, then you've lost the organic to Indeed. Or you're hoping that they come up with some kind of Panda updates that kills Indeed. Joel (33m 47s): Panda update. Listen to you, listen to you. Let's talk robots in Canada. So there was, there's an article out of Canada of all places. So that's this organization called Statistics Canada says domestic firms that invested in robots since the late nineties, oh, I miss the nineties, have also expanded their human workforces. The findings released this past Monday show that over two decades firms that automated some tasks had workforces 15% larger relative to other companies in the same industry, quote from the story. "The results of this study suggests that the impact of robot adoption on employment has not been apocalyptic for labour overall." Joel (34m 31s): And that's labour with the u, Chad, also quote "the changes in the structure of the workforce, more software and engineering people, fewer trades people and fewer managers on the factory floor. The study found that quality, not quantity was the driving force to bring robots there." Okay. My take on this is great, but methodical change since the nineties is about to go steroids with the AI of today, Chad (34m 59s): Joel (34m 59s): ... You can compare now late nineties to, I don't know, 2015 or so to like what we're about to see with AI and the rapid changes we're about to see. Your thoughts. Chad (35m 11s): It's really interesting because it seems like, and it's Canada, right? So they're trying to compare Luddites with Moore's law. In Canada, I love Canada. It's a beautiful place, especially BANFF, but I love Canada, but they are like the 10th largest nation GDPwise, I think. We have three States in the United States that are, are big as, or bigger than Canada. So I think. Joel (35m 39s): They're tiny. Chad (35m 40s): So they're tiny number one. Number two, they're also not a good representation of capitalism because they are, they love their people. Unlike America. They want to ensure that those individuals more social socialism ish, they want to make sure that those individuals are taken care of. So there's a whole focus in culture in Canada that we don't have in the US so to be able to use this study, I think is not applicable to the United States, the number one economy in the world at all. Joel (36m 16s): Number one, people. Suck it China. Chad (36m 19s): I wish we actually did business like Canada to an extent to ensure that we took care of our people, but we don't. So to be able to try to compare to Canada is, is not realistic. Joel (36m 34s): Oh, Canada. I need a Molson right about now let's take a break. Chad (36m 39s): Robot's are coming kids, just as long as I have a beer, I'll be okay. And a beach. Joel (36m 44s): Isn't hockey season coming around soon? So we'll be, Sovren (36m 47s): You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal" like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel (37m 46s): There's a Canadian beer called La Fin Du Monde. Chad (37m 50s): I have not Jo-el. Joel (37m 52s): It's very nice. It's very nice. You can get it at your, your local Whole Foods, I think, from Canada to Arkansas. Chad (38m 0s): Arkansas, get it right, dude. Joel (38m 3s): Arkansas. Chad (38m 3s): Just a little little notes about Chad Sowash here. I spent two and a half years in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. That's only because only because Uncle Sam made me do it. Joel (38m 18s): Northwest. So specifically, Northwest Arkansas, were you in Northwest Arkansas? Chad (38m 22s): It was not Northwest Arkansas. Did visit Northwest Arkansas. Pine Bluff is about an hour south of Little Rock. Joel (38m 30s): Have you been to Bentonville? Chad (38m 32s): Oh yeah. Joel (38m 33s): Walmart is it nice? I've never been, it's got a nice airport apparently. Chad (38m 36s): Well it was, it was in the early nineties, my friend. Anyway, Forbes, Northwest Arkansas has just announced that it will pay new residents, $10,000 to move to an area that is known as one of the best places in best places to live in America, thanks to its low cost of living, outdoor activities, world-class arts institutions and a per capita income that's 14% higher than the national average. It's a similar program created by a village in Italy, which I mean, come on, how do you compare that? Chad (39m 17s): City of Tulsa, Oklahoma, and the state of Vermont, which, has grabbed headlines here lately. This to me is a hell of a brain share grab. A market share grab. And also this is good for a tax base. Joel (39m 37s): Sure. And did you mention that you get a free mountain bike with this move to Arkansas? So yeah, this includes a street, a street or a mountain bike. It's important to segment those two so that new residents can explore the area's 162 miles of paved trails and 3.2 miles of mountain biking trails, not to mention the Ozark mountains, by the way, that's a great Netflix show. Chad (40m 2s): Yes. Joel (40m 2s): Not into biking. You can choose an annual membership to one of the local cultural institutions like the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art, which was started by Wal-Mart heiress, Alice Walton, America's richest art collector. Chad (40m 16s): Yeah. This is awesome because we're looking at a more distributed workforce, right? So you can do these things. You can move wherever the fuck you want. So these aren't only US programs, many countries other than Italy, are making it easier for Americans to find a new home and work remotely. So I think, I think the distributed workforce in itself is going to allow us human beings to enjoy this one life we have a little bit easier. Joel (40m 47s): Look, I think it's great. You know, my father used to say strike while the iron is hot and in a world where everyone works from home, all these companies are saying, Hey, you know, we're not coming back until 2024 the opportunity to live wherever the hell you want is open to everybody. And all these folks that are paying mortgages in Chicago and New York and Boston are saying, you know what, what's the rest of the world got? And when you can roll out 10K and a free mountain bike, goddammit, to some young professional in Philadelphia, who's sick of pan, you know, excessive rents, go to Northwest Arkansas and a route on the Razorbacks. Joel (41m 31s): I say, why the hell not? I think you're going to see a lot more of this from States you wouldn't normally think about moving to because, Hey, everyone's got something to offer. Chad (41m 41s): Amen. And I say, Do it just as long as you're not working for Facebook. Joel (41m 47s): Again with the Facebook, what's, what's wrong with Facebook now? Chad (41m 52s): Well again, what we're doing is we're allowing people to be more distributed, right? And they're doing the same work they were before. It's not where like we're asking anything less, right? So Facebook, it's interesting. They've had a couple of things happen. Obviously we've talked about the Facebook rule of them wanting to deduct 20%, which is total bullshit for anybody who moves outside of Silicon Valley. But they also are creating these directors of remote. And I see it as a way for big companies to split upper management into different ways of leading like different regions. Chad (42m 33s): And th these regions being remote. So, you know, it's just putting a 2020 spin on something. A leader should already be equipped to handle in the first place. We're in 2020. If you need to be face-to-face to lead, then you should be back in 1980. Joel (42m 54s): I became president to lead, not to read. I think this is a position that will, will become popular, like director of remote work. Don't you? It feels like it's going to happen. There's no reason for it to have though. I mean, Chad (43m 9s): Think of it right now. Right? So we have managers who were already managing people who were in physical locations before they're learning how to do it remotely. Right? So why have a manager to be able to, I mean, other than analytics for a much larger organization for strategy, maybe? There's a possibility there, there's a possibility there, but overall, we as leaders need to be better at not having to be face-to-face to have real human conversations. Joel (43m 45s): I feel a little bit like you've been the Chad and Cheese director of remote work. Since about the time we started, don't you? Chad (43m 54s): I have no clue what you're talking about. We out. Joel (43m 56s): We out. OUTRO (44m 42s): Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

In a shortened holiday week, the podcast is loaded with solid content. We're talkin' acquisitions like.. - Adecco - errrr Vettery - auction sale of Hired - VONQ has it's eyes on the U.S. - New York City getting tough on A.I. hiring - Thanks HireVue! - Unwoke's dip into the deadpool - DICE is just f#$%ing embarrassing ...and much, much more. Grab some pumpkin pie, put on your fat boy pants and enjoy another active week in recruitment, as always, powered by Jobvite, Sovren and JobAdx. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire. INTRO (1s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (22s): It ain't cool being no jive turkey so close to Thanksgiving, everybody. Welcome to HR's most dangerous podcast. AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel "another old fashioned, please" Cheeseman. Chad (37s): And I'm Chad "just give me the damn shot" Sowash. Joel (42s): On this week's show Hired gets hired, Dice innovates like it's 2013, and Unwoke goes broke! Pass the stuffing and put on your fat boy pants everybody, we'll be right back. Sovren (55s): You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal" like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel (1m 54s): Fat boy pants, or as I like to call them pants. Chad (2m 1s): Oh shit, dude. I got to say, man, I didn't realize that the Philadelphia Eagles were worse than the Browns. Wtf, didn't they just win like a super bowl a few years ago? What's going on here? Joel (2m 14s): Dude, there's a whole division that's worse than the Brown Slake, the NFC East is so bad. I can't fathom it. And I think the Eagles are in first place. Like that's how bad that division is. They're three, five and one or three, six, and one, and are in first place from Browns or I'll start off shadows with the Browns, like the Brown seven and three, second place. They're not catching the Steelers, but hell let's go to the playoffs. Let's 2020 this bitch and win a Super Bowl because that would be the most 2020 thing ever. Cleveland Browns, Super Bowl champs in a stadium with nobody in it. That would be 2020 to a tee. Chad (2m 51s): Well Victoria Conley, Ed from Philly and all of our, all of our Philadelphia listeners. I got nothing guys. I got nothing. My first shout out is to the LinkedIn poll that I put out there. And the question I posed was will you take the COVID vaccine as soon as it is available? It's been out there for a week. 52% said yes, 48% said no. And I mean, we all have, we all have different reasons. And in Torin actually said, Torin Ellis said "not a chance. Given how the medical system has too often abuse, misaligned, and misinformed, the black community, I'm waiting." Chad (3m 35s): This is coupled with the newness of the vaccine, a need to gather more real life data. There's just a ton of reasons why there's no way in hell that Torin is going to take it. He said, he's going to continue to limit movement and wear his damn mask and, and Torin, I love your brother, but I'm sick and tired of limiting my movement. Give me the shot. Joel (3m 57s): The shot had to be put in a testicle. I'd be like, pick, pick one, whichever one you want, like vacs me up, baby. I don't, I want to go back to traveling and being out in the world, like, but it's interesting that he brought an ethnic, like race, race part to this. Chad (4m 14s): IT's true. Joel (4m 14s): I never, I never, I never thought about, I mean, they, they don't, they don't typically release vaccines based on race, but I've just never thought of that angle. Like, Hey, have blacks been screwed with vaccines in the past? I guess so. Chad (4m 28s): Just the healthcare system overall. It's like, look, let's just go ahead and push away from the table. I'll wait. Joel (4m 35s): Next shout out. Talk Push our buddies that push it real good turn six, six years old. That's not six days, six weeks or six months. They turned six years old. Max and team keep pushing, man. You're doing good stuff. Talk Push it real good. Turn six. Almost ready for first grade. Chad (4m 54s): Yep. Yep! Pia over there is killing it on the marketing side. Keep it going. My next shout out is to Collin Parker from Crelate who sent us some Seattle whiskey. I haven't tried it yet, but it was free. So there's no question I'm going to drink it. He wanted to say, thanks for helping him get back up to speed. He left the industry for a bit and needed a crash course, which is what the Chad and Cheese is here to do. So we provided him with a crash course on what the fuck was happening in the industry. Our pleasure, Collin, keep the alcohol coming. Joel (5m 28s): I have tried it. I will say that Northwest whiskey is a little bit different. It's a little, little earthier, a little more, little more biscuit, sort of flavor and sense. So yeah, I'll be interested to hear your opinion on, on something outside of the, the middle of the country here, so close to Kentucky that we enjoy. Shout out to Shaker got an email from them today actually. Shaker, we can say new website, support of the show, but yeah, sending out popcorn and I don't know if we're supposed to share this because maybe it's just for clients and friends, but fuck it. Yeah. Go to shaker.com/holiday-gift to put in your name for some free popcorn and who doesn't love some free popcorn. Joel (6m 9s): That's what I'm talking about. Chad (6m 10s): That's what I'm talking about. Joel (6m 11s): Yeah. Chad (6m 11s): Big shout out to Leandro Gomes da Silva Senior Recruiter over at Recharge.com. Thanks for connecting and listening Leandro. We enjoy our listeners connecting with us. I know Joel, you know, when he wakes up from a nap, he loves to see the notifications of people trying to connect with us, not to mention having discussions, kind of like sidebar discussions, definitely connect with us individually on LinkedIn or Twitter. Just look us up on Facebook. We have a Chad and Cheese page, so like it and enjoy. Joel (6m 45s): No doubt, no doubt. Shout out to Quincy Valencia the queen. If you haven't heard the episode of the Thanksgiving episode, you got to check that out released earlier this week. Quincy, thanks for amusing, you know, humoring us and coming on the show. Chad (6m 59s): Thanks man. Yeah. Thanks for classing up the joint. Big shout out to John Thurmond over at HR social hour, he knew that I was getting thirsty. So he sent to an HR social hour bottle opener. And this thing's legit. Did you get one of those? Joel (7m 15s): It weighs about eight pounds. I got it in the mail. Like how, how did this get here with just a one, you know, one, a first class stamp. They must have connections at the post office or something. Shout out to Slack. God, we've talked about these guys forever. They're allegedly in talks with Salesforce to get acquired. So this, this, this drop today, this will be something I'm sure we'll dig into a little bit more next week, but shout out to them in, in Salesforce, it looks like is getting into the enterprise messaging business in a big way. So yeah, it's finally happening. Slack is getting bought. Chad (7m 51s): They need to, they really do. Big shout out to Aja Eric and Elise over at Symphony Talent for sending yet another bottle of Blanton's kids! Joel (8m 2s): We're not worthy. We're not worthy. Chad (8m 5s): They know what helps us get prepped for another transform. And that being said, we've got an event coming up. As a matter of fact, we just taped our session. Symphony's transform is happening on December 3rd. And I have to say that when you register, do yourself a favor and pick the insider experience. I actually got my box today. My VIP box today, legit swag in the box to heighten the experience, just Google Symphony Talent transform, treat yourself and enjoy. Joel (8m 39s): And, and for self promotion purposes, make sure that you check out the Pinterest keynote session and especially the intro for that, because my ass still has some sweat in the crack because I would sit next to the fire for so long videotaping that goddamn intro. So you better watch it people. you better watch it. Chad (8m 59s): That's what happens when I make Joel do about 27 takes. Joel (9m 3s): You make me make me well Blanton's won't fit in your pocket, but you know what will? Chad and Cheese will, if you don't have this in your pocket, make sure you text CC. That's the letter C N C to (833) 799-0321. That's Chad and cheese in your pocket. Tech CC to (833) 799-0321. Good stuff. Chad (9m 24s): And we have a beer drop winner. Don't we? Joel (9m 27s): Hell yeah, we do! Chad (9m 28s): Adzoona up, bringing you beer drop. If you haven't won beer drop and you want to get free beer on your doorstep, contactless, Chad and Cheese wants you to as well go to beerdrop.net. Thanks to AdZoona for powering this, but we've got a new winner. Joel (9m 47s): Yeah. If you get a, if you can find a drum roll soundbite, put it in here. Chad (9m 51s): drumroll Joel (9m 51s): The winner this month is Bo Higgins! Is there a more Southern name than Bo Higgins? He's a veteran recruiter at Amazon, Virginia grad. So we're going to talk some military shit, some, you're going to vent about Amazon probably to him over our zoom, Zoom tasting. Chad (10m 11s): Oh yeah, no question. Joel (10m 11s): But Bo, you are a winner buddy. He picks the stouts for this month. He's a stout guy. So. Chad (10m 17s): I'm looking forward to it. Joel (10m 18s): Look out for that Bo and happy Thanksgiving to you. Chad (10m 22s): And if you're not a big fan of the beer, that's okay, because maybe you're just more top shelf kind of person, right? And you're looking for the free Pappy Van Winkle. Well kids guess what? Chad and Cheese and Sovren are giving away two bottles of Pappy Van Winkle, was it family reserve like $2,200 a bottle? Joel (10m 46s): Two family reserves retails at $2200. You'll pay more on more than that in the secondary market and a bottle of Blanton's exclusive Japanese import. That's the losing bottle of a bourbon! So you can't lose. Bo Higgins was upset. He wanted to know, can I win beer drop and the Pappy's? Chad (11m 10s): Take the goddamn beer. It must be a Marine. I mean, Jesus Christ. Joel (11m 14s): You must work at Amazon. Chad (11m 16s): You never give a what? You never give back free shit, Bo. And that'd being said. Joel (11m 21s): Army, Army, Marine, Army Marine talk. Here we go. Chad (11m 24s): I don't know what he is yet. Just sounds like a Marine. Joel (11m 27s): He is a Marine. He is a Marine. Chad (11m 28s): And if you want more free stuff, I don't know. Maybe Chad and Cheese holiday cards. We send stuff out to listeners and we're going to more in 2020 that's rig Joel (11m 39s): Logoed Speedo. Chad (11m 39s): That's right, Logo Speedo. Go to Chadcheese.com and just click on free register there, for t-shirts, a bunch of different stuff. And again, I have to give big props to Shaker Recruitment Marketing. If you check out the new website, what we've been able to do is because we're getting close to 600 episodes now. As we've categorized much of that content, now you can go into it and we've surfaced a lot of the awesome interviews, stuff around cult brand, females. We actually created a category around uplifting female voices as well. Chad (12m 22s): So go to chadcheese.com, check out the new site and thanks again to Shaker! Joel (12m 27s): Get yourself a box of wine, and on this holiday weekend and binge on some Chad and Cheese. That's what I'm talking about. Chad (12m 34s): Amen Brother. Topics! Joel (12m 36s): Topics! Chad (12m 37s): Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. This is, this is, this is not a topic, but it's like a mega shout out. I got to do this. So remember when we interviewed Patrick Sheehan, the CEO over at Circa? Joel (12m 50s): Yes, I do remember. Chad (12m 51s): Okay. So he said that he wants Circa to be a leader in driving equity for clients, blah, blah, blah. We hear fucking companies, vendors say this shit all the time, right? And it's usually a load of bullshit. So during the podcast, I personally challenged him to display circus workforce composition, put it right out there for everyone to see, because transparency is the first step to accountability. Now, usually CEO's are like, "Oh, sure. I'll do that." And nothing ever happens. Guess what! Joel (13m 22s): What? Chad (13m 23s): Patrick did that shit. They actually put their workforce composition out on circa.com. And beside is a quote from Patrick I'll read quote "here at Circa we wanted to fully disclose our DEI statistics to be transparent with our customers, business partners, prospects and employees. We are a company that is currently in the infancy stage of DEI and are working to move the needle to become a more diverse company. We believe teams have the power to transform business and we'll continue to work towards internal and external DEI goals." End quote. This people right here is the first step in actually providing any type of unbiased or any type of diversity or individuals with disabilities, type of product or service. Chad (14m 18s): You have to be transparent yourself. You have to demonstrate that you believe in DEI. You can't just give us the fluff because here at the Chad and Cheese, we're not going to take that fucking fluff. And Patrick came to the challenge. Good, good job, Patrick. Joel (14m 33s): Yeah. Usually some 24 year old marketing person gets thrown under the bus and they blame them if you don't get the numbers. And Oh, I thought I told that I told Bob to do that. He didn't get to that. That's that's a shame. And by the way you said circa.com, isn't it Circaworks.com or did they buy circa.com? Chad (14m 49s): I think your right. Joel (14m 51s): Okay. Okay. Little clarification there. Good call. In the news. I'm confused. I don't know what a double, double bell, if there's a super shout out or would it okay. All right. So, so Hired who we, we talked about recently, we talked about their CEO, bailing sort of, disappearing. I guess he, he was thrown off the Island survivor style and we look up and there was a story about their shopping, the business, blah, blah, blah. There's some conflicting reports. And then we wake up one morning and we get the news that hired.com has been acquired by Vettery. So that's kind of how that, how that kind of Adecco, right. Joel (15m 33s): So Adecco bought Vettery two years ago. I believe? Chad (15m 37s): Yup! In 2018. Joel (15m 37s): We got irrelevant to the story, but to me it just, it felt like a nice vanity brand that they get to use. And I fully expect Vettery to become Hired in the next 12 months. But other than that, there's not a ton for me to say on this one, that's important. Do you have anything like groundbreaking on this one? Chad (15m 57s): I'm gonna coin, this the Adecco menage a trois play. First off, Adecco and again, we have to take a look at this more in the grander scope of strategy, Adecco needs to find faster ways to provide talent and value because high volume competitors like Alexander Mann solutions in Hourly, in smaller players, like Sonic jobs offer a direct to market alternative without the staffing intervention. So this is a clearance rack acquisition. It was actually an auction by the way. Joel (16m 31s): Was it? Chad (16m 33s): Yeah. Joel (16m 34s): Do we know the final price or was it a silent auction? Chad (16m 37s): I believe it was and again, these are just rumors, but I believe just above 25 mil, and I'm not very bullish on a staffing company, like Adecco actually innovating, because if you think about it, it's like Monster tied to duration based postings and getting out run by a startup who was a hungrier. Adecco is not hungry and they won't innovate. They'll just buy a hammer and wonder why it won't work as a screwdriver. So I'm not seeing this going far for Adecco. So player number two, Vettery acquired in 2018 by Adecco. Chad (17m 17s): I find it interesting that Vettery's employee base has declined by 39% in the last year and 49% in the last two years. So it really feels like Vettery is slowly being just absorbed into Adecco itself. Joel (17m 35s): Yeah. Chad (17m 36s): And then last but not least Hired. So Hired head count dropped by 53% in the last year now hired as a tech talent centered platform. So COVID is not an excuse for the major loss. They had about 45 million in revenues in 2019 and dropped to under 20 in 2020. And again, you kind of ran through the quick TikTok, but I'm going to do it again. Three to four weeks ago, hired CEO slipped out the back door. And I say slipped out because he was gone and Hired still had them displayed on their website, sneaky little bastard. Joel (18m 13s): Clearly the sale was almost done by the time he was gone. Chad (18m 16s): Something was happening, but seriously, Martin Burns actually shared that the CEO dropped the mic on a zoom call. I mean, can you get more 2020 than that? Joel (18m 26s): Yeah. Chad (18m 27s): Then last week we talk about the CFO informed some shareholders. The board had unsuccessfully attempted to sell hired since the start of the year and its cash reserves were dwindling. So that was an issue. And then I have a quote from one of the Hired's clients and here's the quote, "the wider picture problem is software engineers don't need this stuff. If they write a post on LinkedIn saying they are available, they will have 10 interviews by the end of the day." And personally, I, I just think the best asset that they're getting out of this is the domain. Joel (19m 9s): Yeah. I don't think there's, we don't know the price, right? but yeah, Hired is a great domain. If nothing else, it'd be a nice addition to the Adecco portfolio. The press release on this thing, you know, was as, as interesting as they tried to make it. Basically talked about forming quote, the largest global AI driven marketplace for high intent technology, marketing sales, and finance talent. How many buzzwords can you get into a headline? I do also positive, I guess, was the presence in 23 cities across the U S Canada, UK, and Ireland and France. And this will help spur more growth in the business for Vettery. But for me, like, you know, we talk so much about companies that, you know, somebody comes in that had some startup in the consumer consumers, you know, stuff, and, and they, they think they can make a viable product in employment. Joel (20m 1s): And then they get a bunch of money because they're tied to Silicon Valley and then they spend a much of money sort of stupidly. And this is what happens. You know, if within five to 10 years, the founders are gone or they're not interested anymore because selling to HR is a bitch to, to say the least. They hand it down and sell it, I mean, the investors want to get out of it. And this is just a story that we keep telling. It's, it's almost a non story to me. Chad (20m 27s): No, I think, I think this is a great story for startups that are out there to understand. The model was shit, period, guys, the model was shit. First and foremost. Joel (20m 38s): It wasn't necessarily shit in 2012, the problem was that they, they stayed in that model when things evolved. Chad (20m 45s): You had human intervention in career counselor types of people where the technology should have actually taken over. How many career counselors have you connected with when you've used Fiverr, right? Joel (20m 60s): They have career counselors at Fiverr? Chad (21m 2s): Because they don't need em! Right? That's the problem. When you have human intervention into technology, that just means your technology's shit and/or the product and/or model is shit. So overall, there are a few things that were working against them, maybe in 2012, tech people actually wanted to try to find jobs this way. They aren't today, because they don't have to, number one. Number two, having that human layer in there actually defeats the technology in itself. Right? So overall, yes, I understand that a Hired does have, you know, from what I've heard, halfways decent tech, what I have to say is, prove it, get rid of those fucking people and see if it can land and scale on its own, if it can, than it is. Chad (21m 51s): If it can't, you're full of shit. Joel (21m 54s): Yeah. And I want to say too, like I reported on Vettery years ago when they, when they launched and they were really big on, like, we're going to kill staffing agencies, we're going to kill recruiters. And like, it's really hard to make a successful business when your message messages, we're going to kill staffing and we're going to kill the staffing business. That's a hard mountain to climb in terms of sales, because most of these recruiters think if you're a tech company, you're out to replace them anyway. And if it's actually in your messaging, that's a really hard, hard to, to be on. Chad (22m 23s): And Indeed Flex is going down that, that exact same fucking road. Joel (22m 28s): History repeats itself all the time in this. Chad (22m 32s): Well, let's talk about VONQ, which sounds like something I caught in college on a Saturday night Shot in your Johnson for? Joel (22m 39s): Dude, she gave you the VONQ! So VONQ has acquired IGB, who I never heard of. Chad (22m 46s): Yeah. Joel (22m 47s): So the news on this, you've got some programmatic stuff. You've got automation. VONQ is a programmatic advertising and recruitment analytics, job distribution company. And so is IGB, for the most part, they talk about them being an automated job posting and programmatic solution. So I'm guessing this is kind of like two of the same combining sort of the same core competencies, hoping that they can produce a better product. Again, I don't know anything about IGB. I don't know if they were funded. I don't know if this was a fire sale. This was just, let's get the hell out. So I'm limited on my knowledge of this, but it just sounds like, Hey, you do the same thing as we do. Joel (23m 31s): Oh, you're looking to sell, Oh, let's combine forces and let's make a bigger elephant than what we've got. Yeah. Chad (23m 37s): So remember back in October last year. So about a year ago, VONQ sold 54% of the company to capital D with their eyes on growth and invading the United States. So they now have capital. And remember the U S is at 21, is $21 trillion in GDP. Whereas the UK plus France plus Germany is around 10 trillion. So sewing all of the EU together is not an easy task, number one. So I've got to give it to them because that's, what they've been trying to do for years is to try to sew together all of the money that's there. Chad (24m 18s): And then looking across the pond at this pool of $21 trillion in GDP being the US. So that's, that's VONQ in capital D. But you're a hundred percent, right! I mean, who is IGB? I sent messages out to several friends across the pond and said specifically, who the fuck is IGB? Joel (24m 40s): IGB who? Chad (24m 41s): And most, most of them responded with I D I have no fucking clue, right? But one responded with IGB is an unknown Dutch player, but they process and post approximately 10 million jobs each month. In fact, IGB may not be well-known, but Ron Stodd Adecco and manpower do rely on their programmatic advertising, which can measure the result in cost per click, cost per applicant, or cost per hire. So this might look small from the outside, and I'm sure that's exactly what VONQ wants you to think, but they Joel (25m 23s): Have deadly company. Chad (25m 25s): They have their eyes on a global platform. Joel (25m 29s): That was talked about in the release. It said VONQ combined with IGB will be ideally positioned in this environment with the right product mix to accommodate the needs of both corporate and staffing customers. IGB will profit from the addition of media purchasing to their business model. While VONQ's job marketing platform will be strengthened by IGB's programmatic technology. The combination also allows for greater expansion internationally. Chad (25m 52s): The hard part for VONQ in for anybody coming across the pond to the U S is some of the compliance measures that we have to deal with, OFCCP, posting measures, those types of things, and understanding that if you want to try to duplicate something like that, it is a bitch. So they're going to have to look at acquisition or partnership. That's all there is to it. If they try to build something, it's going to be difficult for them, but it might be a, a big problem to have, but the US has a big nut to crack when it comes to revenue. So I think their focus first right out of the gate is taking down vendors like are competitors like Broadbean. Chad (26m 36s): Broadbean is really just a job distribution, kind of like a dumb spray and pray job distribution platform. They've partnered with companies like Joveo to try to make it smarter, but VONQ can really, I think, knock them out fairly quickly and then start to hopefully adapt in, come to the US. We'll see, it's not going to be easy. Joel (27m 1s): Dude, that chick gave you the VONQ! Jobvite (27m 3s): Recruiter Nation Live (RNL) 2020 presented by Jobvite is coming up on December 10th. Join us in imagining a future of talent acquisition that is built for candidates and recruiters alike. With two keynotes, featuring JobVite CEO, Aman Brar, along with the creator of FUBU and star of Shark Tank, Daymond John you'll leave RNL '20 inspired. Throughout the half day event there'll be opportunities to network with your peers, create round table discussions and even win prizes! Head to jobvite.com/RNL to register today. Joel (27m 38s): The good news is VONQ can be cleared up with a penicillin shot. It's no big deal. Chad (27m 42s): Can't everything? I mean, seriously. Joel (27m 45s): New York is in the news along with facial recognition issues. Chad (27m 52s): Just AI overall. Yes. Joel (27m 54s): Thanks. Thanks Amazon. Thanks Amazon. Yeah. New York City, New York facial recognition, the city council is considering a bill that will require potential employers to notify job candidates about the use of these tools referred to as quote, "automated decision systems" who I like that. Companies would also have to complete an annual audit. Oh, that sounds like a pain in the ass to make sure that technology doesn't result in bias. A dozen groups, including the AI now Institute, New York Civil Liberties Union, and New York Communities for Change issued a letter last week, pushing for the law to cover more types of automated tools and more steps in the hiring process. They want to measure to include heavier penalties, enabling people to suit. Joel (28m 39s): Suit your ass if they've been passed over for a job because of biased algorithms. Yikes. Chad (28m 45s): Yes, Yeah. So thanks. Hirevue you went and fucked everybody. Good job. Good job guys. Yeah. Yeah. Good job. Joel (28m 53s): Well Amazon fucked up first by having their own algorithm bias towards or against women or whatever, whatever the hell it was. So go ahead and blame Amazon, man. You gotta, you like to beat them up anyway. Chad (29m 4s): But you didn't have a whole state create legislation around why. Joel (29m 8s): That's true. That's true. Chad (29m 9s): They did it Hirevue in Illinois, but anyway, I mean, seriously, you know, kind of push back from this. This is, this is a call to all algorithms that are out there that are in the process. They are necessary. They are something that every single one of our organizations who are hiring, who need to scale, need to have, there's no question. Here's the key kids. You have to be transparent. You have to be white box around this stuff. We talked to Robert Ruff over at Sovren around this, and they've actually created a platform. And, and again, it was all in response to this around transparency. Chad (29m 51s): You know, to be able to say that, Oh, our algorithm is just way too smart for you stupid humans to understand. I totally get that motherfucker, but guess what? I got to defend this shit in court. So you either give me a white box where I can actually take a look at it. I can explain it. And that's where Athena Carp calls explainability. They call it explainability, but I might be able to explain it, but it's all about the defense man when it comes to compliance, it's all about defense. Joel (30m 20s): So to me, the core of this story is there, there will actually be penalties if this is, if this has passed, because basically it's a math problem for companies like Facebook to say, Oh, what's it going to cost if we're in trouble while there's really no law, okay, there's a lawsuit. Let's, let's write a check for 5 million or whatever it is, and be done with it. But if there are legitimate fees and problems and penalties based on this stuff, then companies are actually going to pay attention to it. And also on a federal level, a bill to study bias in algorithms has been introduced in Congress. So if there's some federal legislation down the pike, this could be a real hiccup for algorithmic AI, FA facial base, whatever you name it, companies in our industry, they're going to have to have that check box before anybody uses the service to make sure that they're proving that "Yes, I I'm okay with being facially recognized in my interview." Chad (31m 17s): Yeah. And here's the thing is that most startups aren't making $70 billion a fucking year like Facebook is right? Joel (31m 26s): They're not? That sucks! Chad (31m 27s): Yeah, no, that's the thing, man. So overall again, this does nothing more than really help us hyper focus on what matters most. I mean, and that's, I think that's the biggest problem with tech. We start to look at the bright and shiny shit, but we don't focus on what matters most, in this is equity. Are we, are we treating the people? Are we treating people the right way in the system? Is the algorithm doing that? Can we audit it internally? These are the things that have to be answered. And if you can't do that, then you don't deserve my money, motherfucker. That's all there is to it. Yeah. Joel (32m 6s): And I also think there was a story this week about Microsoft and maybe another tech company looking for government to sort of get involved because I think they see the, the, the writing on the wall of saying, Hey, we need to get ahead of this. Yeah. Let's get some common sense regulation. So this, this doesn't go too far and people freak out. And what, like serious regulation that sort of chokes off innovation. Yes. Chad (32m 29s): We need a task force to be able to pull some things together because like the legislation that they were trying to push and, or they did push in in Illinois, it was shit. It was total shit because they didn't have the right people in place to be able to guide them. We know we can be at the speed of tech if we have the right people in place. Joel (32m 52s): Yeah. When you legislate in fear, it's not usually a good thing. Chad (32m 56s): Yeah. Joel (32m 57s): Well, speaking of fear, by the way, isn't it nice to have elected government act like professionals and adults? I just want to say that real quickly. Chad (33m 7s): I'm giddy! Joel (33m 8s): So yeah. So this is, I guess, sign of the times. You remember unwoke.hr? Chad (33m 13s): Oh, I remember those white supremacist fucksticks. Joel (33m 16s): Good for goodness. So, so unwoke.hr came on the scene as you know, they were touting themselves as you know, higher courageous freethinking and freedom, loving individuals, not ideologues whose only agenda is to weaponize your brand and business to further a radical cause. So these guys came on and they got a lot of attention. vice.com wrote about them. We talked about, I think everyone in our industry talked about them. They got really chesty and said, Hey, we're here to stay. We're going to break shit and shake shit up. I thought it was either a joke. Somebody in their parents' basement, Joe got pot, it was an SEO play like, Oh, it'll redirect somewhere. Joel (34m 0s): And through 30 days, or it'll be, or it's like a Fox news secret, like jobs, something or other. We're not really sure what it is, but as of this week, it's gone. We check these sites fairly frequently and realize that, Hey, it's no longer there. It's now a holding page. Chad (34m 21s): Applause Joel (34m 22s): We don't know who started it. We probably never will, but it's gone. Chad (34m 27s): Well. And here's the thing. If you are one of these unwoke assholes, then show your face and share your name because overall you should be in organizations that embrace your culture and who you are. I hope there aren't many of them, but stop hiding motherfucker. Joel (34m 47s): There you go! Maybe, maybe anyway. But yeah, it's when you have a, when you have a job board that upsets everybody, like no employers want to be a part of it. So with the exception of maybe a few that don't give a shit. So it's really a pretty bad business model. Chad (35m 1s): It was. Joel (35m 3s): Anyway. But speaking of worse, worst business models, an actual legitimate business. So Dice this week, so our buddy, our buddy Art Zeal, who I called Dark Zeal, cause he won't talk to us. So they, he promised innovation on steroids when he came into the business. He's a tech guy, the previous CEO was basically a finance pencil pusher type. And so we got the innovation of all of innovations this week. Dice is launched or introduced, if you will messaging! Joel (35m 45s): That's innovation now at Dice, they had a big press release on it. So, so other other innovations Chad, I went up and I went back in time here. So earlier, earlier this year, Dice unveiled an anonymous email feature. Ooh, something that Craigslist has had since about 2004 that allows both candidates and employers to keep their identity private. Ooh, until they feel comfortable enough to reveal their identity. The company also launched recruiter profiles, oo, which also allows employers and recruiters to create profiles and link them to posted jobs. Holy shit, that's innovation folks, anonymous emails and profile pages. Joel (36m 30s): And now you have instant messaging. Chad (36m 33s): So Art and team are promising shareholders, a Tesla, and then they show up on horseback. This is the most ridiculous bullshit. Dice should have built a company with courses helping users to brush up on their skills, on their development skills and gain new certifications. Right? That's what the tech community demands either from a user standpoint or from an employer standpoint, and guess what the employers would have paid for that shit? They would have paid to get individual certified into the skills that they needed so that they could get their positions filled. But guess what? We're talking about. All of the shit that doesn't fucking matter. You know why? Chad (37m 13s): Because Art doesn't know what the fuck he is doing. Seriously. Having the CEO of heroes jobs would have been an upgrade from this dude. Fucking embarrassing. Art come on the show and to defend yourself, man, because this is not defendable. Joel (37m 31s): The good news thoughm, Chad is, since he took the CEO job there, their share price is 10 more cents per share. So they've been, they've been ripping it up on Wall Street and ripping it up. All right, let's take a break. And we'll talk about paint. JobAdX (37m 50s): Whether you're struggling to fill high volume, hourly roles or looking for longterm full time talent, your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. JobAdX (38m 31s): We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit? JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at JobAdX.com that's JobAdX.com. Joel (39m 11s): Companies are so stupid. This story really pissed me off. Chad (39m 15s): Me too. And not just because it's a kid going to school. Joel (39m 18s): Ohio University, a good, a good Ohio kid. And so this, this kid where he's in college, he works at, at Sherwin Williams and he's posting stuff on TikTok about how to mix paints and how to like use paints and how to, you know, like whatever, whatever you do with paint. Right? My man has 1.2 million followers on TikTok. Chad (39m 39s): 1.2 million? Joel (39m 41s): In all of his videos apparently talks about like a ham Harris Sherwin-Williams he mixes all Shermin-Williams paints. He's promoting shred Williams. He's wearing his Shermin-Williams shit. So in a logical world to me Sherwin-Williams should be like, Hey kid, you want a job after college? Yes. Come work in Sherwin-Williams marketing department and teach us how to do social media like you do social media and then that'd be like a really smart thing to do. But these dumb asses fire this kid, because they're too tone deaf, all they see is, you know, sort of like, you know, terms of service, right? Like, Oh, he broke this rule. He's out. And instead of having an amazing opportunity to have a social media presence that kicks ass in a new medium, that is, Oh, I don't know the fastest growing in the world? Joel (40m 29s): They fire this kid, leaving him to go to, I don't know, Home Depot or wherever Lowe's or whoever else sells paint. Like this kid should get a job immediately based on this stuff. Chad (40m 39s): This is a brand dream, right? You have 1.2 million people who actually care about watching paint get mixed, and this kid is loving it. So this is, this is exactly what every single brand, not just brand in selling paint, because that's exactly what it will fucking do for that brand. But also he's this is his job. So there from an employment standpoint, this is also an amazing brand story to be able to tell and, guess what? Sherwin Williams sucks ass. Joel (41m 15s): You fucked up Sherwin-Williams. Chad, Happy Thanksgiving. Chad (41m 20s): Happy Thanksgiving, man. Joel (41m 22s): I hope I don't have to talk to you for like four days. That'd be great. Four or five days, and we'll come back and hit the ground running. Me, definitely a few pounds heavier. And you with your veggie Wellington, a few pounds lighter, which is kind of the state of our podcast anyway. So the best to you and yours. Chad (41m 41s): And to all of our listeners, everybody reach out to Joel and give him a Happy Thanksgiving. We appreciate you guys listening, and we're definitely thankful for you. So thanks so much. Joel (41m 52s): We out. Chad (41m 53s): We out OUTRO (41m 55s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

Turkey, stuffing, pumpkin pie and a heavy dose of seasonal goodness from Chad & Cheese make an appearance on this special podcast. No jive turkeys here! The boys welcome Hourly's Quincy Valencia to talk things in our industry to be thankful for, as well as what turkeys showed-up on our radar in 2020. You'll laugh, you'll cry. Hell, you'll ask for seconds! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. INTRO (1s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (23s): Thanksgiving show! What's up, everybody as usual, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I am your cohost Joel Cheeseman, joined by my Turkey in a whatever. Chad (39s): Tofurkey! Joel (39s): So Tofurky champion, Chad Sowash and our special guest! Chad (45s): Special guest? Joel (48s): That's right. The Q! Chad (49s): Friend of the show! Queen of chat bots. Joel (55s): We got a rough audience today. Chad (57s): Product innovation at Alexander Mann, she has a long list of accreditation. And she went to this little school down South too. University of Miami. Quincy (1m 6s): I did! Chad (1m 7s): They used to have a football team. Do they have football team anymore? Quincy (1m 9s): It's back, baby. Chad (1m 12s): Just because they have bling doesn't mean it's back. Welcome back to the show Quincy, how you doing? Quincy (1m 18s): Hey, you know what? Never better. Thanks for having me. I love this show. President Trump soundbite (1m 22s): Don't be rude. Quincy (1m 23s): And you have a birthday coming up. Joel (1m 25s): Ooh. How are you celebrating? Chad (1m 26s): How are you doing that? Quincy (1m 27s): I'm celebrating very Unabomber style at a cabin in the woods. Chad (1m 34s): How else would you do it? Quincy (1m 35s): I've been writing my manifesto. Joel (1m 37s): And a bottle of lotion. Quincy (1m 39s): My God. Chad (1m 42s): Puts it on the skin. Okay. Just so you know. Quincy (1m 45s): It's gonna be one of those shows. Chad (1m 48s): It's always one of those. Joel (1m 49s): We're not even drinking everybody. Chad (1m 51s): Joel always asks chat bot or conversational AI. Well, you're the Queen of chatbots. So I'm going with chatbots. How about you? Quincy (1m 60s): Look, you're the one who named me that and it was appropriate at the time, but we'd evolved from chatbot. I think some of us have, I mean, chatbots are still out there, right? Joel (2m 9s): Queen of conversational AI just doesn't roll off the tongue like Queen of chatbots does? Quincy (2m 14s): It doesn't. And so I'm embracing the moniker even though I've evolved beyond it and I'll keep it. It's good. I like it. It sounds good to me. And I liked the crown, so I'll keep it. Joel (2m 25s): Do you think the market is moving toward conversational AI? Because everyone I talk to is like, it's a chat bot. So even though the industry wants them to call it conversational AI it's still chatbot. Quincy (2m 36s): I mean, cause the truth is most of them still are. I mean that's so let's just call it what it is, what it is. We want to be a conversational AI experience and some of us are moving toward that and how we develop it and how we create the experience for our users. Joel (2m 49s): So you think at some point the market will, the market will decipher between the two. Quincy (2m 54s): I think it will have to. I mean it. Joel (2m 56s): Ok. All right. Quincy (2m 57s): But for now I'll take the chatbot moniker. It's ok, I still like it. Chad (3m 0s): Quincy's thankful for being called Queen of the chatbots and that today kids is our show. We are talking about what we're thankful about. Quincy, Joel, and myself are going to talk about what we're thankful about and then at the end, cause this is what you want. We're going to talk about our turkeys for 2020. And yes, 2020 has been a shit show of a year, but Joel (3m 24s): The whole year was a Turkey. Chad (3m 27s): There have been little rays of sunshine in 2020. So we're going to try to focus on that at first and then we're going to hit the Turkey. So right out of the gate, how do you want to start this Cheeseman? Joel (3m 38s): Yeah, I think we, we let our guest of honor, the Queen come out of the gate with her first thing that she's thankful for, in 2020. Quincy (3m 47s): Yeah. I'm happy to, thanks. So first I'm thankful to be on this show with you guys today. Joel (3m 51s): Of course you are. President Trump soundbite (3m 53s): Don't be rude. Quincy (3m 54s): That's not rude, Donald. Joel (3m 56s): Oh, you were going down that path. Quincy (3m 58s): No, no, no, no really, no, thanks for it. I really appreciate it. It has been a dumpster fire of a year overall. Can we all just acknowledge that? Chad (4m 5s): Yeah! Quincy (4m 6s): First and foremost? Okay, good. No, but the thing that I'm most thankful for is our ability at AMS to launch our first product out of our new product division called Hourly, which is yes. Thank you Hourly. Thank you. Thank you. Chad (4m 22s): Not in that. Well, I mean that did have to be a bitch though 2020 and you're launching a new product. Tell us a little bit about that because I mean, we talk about products all the time, but launching this year. Yeah, Quincy (4m 34s): Yeah. You know, so yeah, we launched, we launched a product that is actually, it's a conversational hiring experience platform. It's end-to-end from discovery through hire specifically targeted to the hourly market. Right in the middle of a pandemic. So that's fun. We have great timing. But what we discovered was that, you know, certainly when March or so rolled around, which is right when we were supposed to be in general availability, we said, Oh, are we really going to do this? And we pulled back a bit because that's when everything started to shut down. And what we discovered as the year went on as we really kind of picked the right year to do it because you know, people everything's shut down and people lost their jobs. Quincy (5m 15s): And what we all learned as a nation really, or as the world as a, as a world community, is that the very people that this particular platform was designed for are really drive our economy. It's those frontline workers. It's the barista at Starbucks. And it's the, you know, the cashier at the grocery store. And it's the warehouse workers who are packaging everything to send to us because nobody goes to the store anymore. And so as everyone, you know, lost their jobs, unfortunately, and then as that sort of spike came in and we're hiring people back and we need to find a way to do a couple of things and primarily how do we get them back and make it easier for them? How do we make it easier for the hiring manager and how do we go through the whole process really with some dignity and not treat this population as commodities, which we in talent acquisition sadly have done? Quincy (6m 5s): Everything has been designed for the professional market. And we set out to really change that and change the focus and turned out to actually be a really good year to do that. And you know, already being set up to work remotely, even with our development teams, it ended up being actually a really good year for us to do that. So I'm really grateful for the opportunity to have done that and come out with a super cool product that is being just really well received by buyers in the marketplace. Joel (6m 33s): Give us some context on that. What's the progress report? Like can you tell users or how many messages are going through the system now or like, did it surpass your expectation? I'm just kinda curious. Cause it's been a couple months, I think since you launched, Quincy (6m 45s): It has, so our launch was delayed and we launched into our MVP, our proof of concept beginning of, or end of September, beginning of October. And we did a small pilot to launch. And our first thing, the first thing that I would say is we have, not just the technology, but we have humans behind it. So we started out this conversation, joking between chatbot and conversational AI. The thing with chatbots part, the front end or part of our product is a chatbot or a conversational experience. And all joking aside, we've all been stuck in chatbot hell before, right? Where you starting to engage and you ask a question and it doesn't know what you're talking about. Chad (7m 21s): Yes. Quincy (7m 21s): Because chatbots are only as good as they're trained to be. And we didn't want anybody to be stuck there. The point is to get people through the experience in a pleasurable way and keep that forward momentum, or if they're not qualified for a job, get them out and let them know and that conversational way that's not going to work and not keep them stuck there. And so we have humans behind the experience as well as well. So the system is trained to detect if there's frustration in the process, by from the hiring manager who also has that same experience or from the candidate so that the human can immediately interrupt the experience really, or inject themselves into the experience, insert themselves to pick up as a human right in the middle of the chat. Quincy (8m 4s): It's not hang on, we'll email you, or we'll call you. They actually take over for the bot. And so we're fully staffed and loaded for bear to pick that up. And we haven't had to do that at all. So we have people sitting around growing, growing cobwebs, right? So we've had people sitting around growing cobwebs. Our number one question that we're getting is, "Is that it?" They're getting through to, you know, through the front end, they're exploring the job they're getting through pre-screen, they're taking an assessment, they're getting self scheduled for an interview. And literally the number one thing that's coming through in our intent report is, "Is that all?" because it's so easy to get through. So I call that a win that's that's good and really, really well. And we have people going, yep, that's it. Quincy (8m 45s): You're all set. So that's really good. Joel (8m 47s): Well good. Chad (8m 49s): And job seekers should be thankful as well. Joel (8m 52s): By the way of chatbot hell and questions not being understood. My, my sex bot has similar issues, but that's a different podcast altogether! Chad (9m 2s): It's just because you can't keep your sex bot up Joel (9m 4s): While we're thinking. Yeah. The PA or yeah. Anyway. So anyway, my thankful for is, I guess the death of career fairs, in-person career fairs and the rise of the virtual job fair. There's nothing worse in our industry probably than the process of a job fair. People, you know, companies run out of motel or some crappy, some crappy warehouse, somewhere job seekers have to stand in line with their resume in a suit, probably feeling uncomfortable. The weather's shitty. So you gotta deal with that. At least two people from a company have to waste a whole day that go down shitty lunches, you know, deal with people that are frankly probably insane. Joel (9m 54s): It's just a horrible experience. So if the pandemic, if something good from the pandemic happened, I think it was the quick euthanasia that happened with the face to face to face crappy, dirty germy job fair. And we have the rise of companies from, you know, ones that just do this specifically like Recruit Virtual to conversational AI companies like Olivia, XO Handshake, which is in the college, which just got $80 million to do that. You've got Text Recruit, who's doing it from an automation standpoint. And that way we've got XOR, Recruitology, sponsor of the show. Joel (10m 38s): I mean the list goes on and on, but I hope to God that if there's something good that comes out of 2020, it's the death of these crappy job fairs, both for the job seeker and the recruiter because they're just shitty experiences. So I'm thankful for virtual job fairs everybody. Quincy (10m 56s): Here, Here. Chad (10m 57s): Agreed. My thankful is that a Careerbuilder is the dumpster fire that keeps on giving. Always gives us content Careerbuilder. President Trump soundbite (11m 7s): Don't be rude. Chad (11m 9s): Earlier this year pulled off a massive Jedi mind trick in April to try to cover massive furloughs. That's right kids, good old Careerbuilder spent cash to replace the "work can work" slogan that wasn't even a year old with the "we're building for you" while passing out cardboard boxes to the staff. Then in September CareerBuilder announced a three year, 300 million talent acquisition tech "commitment" that was air quotes, which was laughable knowing their tech is crumbling and it takes that kind of cash alone just to keep it up and running. So again, massive smoke and mirrors. Then in October CareerBuilder's sells, Oh, Textkernel, but need that tech to power aspects of talent discovery. Chad (11m 58s): So they're dismantling tech, which is part of the infrastructure that they need for current products. Then in October, CareerBuilder gets hit with a ransomware attack. I mean, you can't make this shit. They dismantle their engineering staff or their engineering department. They promise to spend money on tech and then they're left with their asses hanging out, for the entire world to see who should be thankful the most, every other vendor that's out there because the level of pure championship stupidity makes all the other mid-level moves that are just minor bullshit, they're easy to miss and brush off. Joel (12m 41s): They are the gift that keeps on giving. Thank you, CareerBuilder. And let's hope that Irina stays CEO for the, for the foreseeable future. Quincy (12m 49s): Chad, your level of glee and joy and the continued mishaps of CareerBuilder, it concerns me a little bit. I'm wondering for seeking counseling or perhaps you should. Chad (12m 59s): This is my counseling. Joel (13m 1s): This show is our therapy, Quincy. Quincy (13m 3s): All right. All right. That all makes sense now, I get it. Joel (13m 6s): All right, Quincy, you're ready for your next thankful item. Quincy (13m 9s): I am. So again, continue on the theme of the silver lining, of the dumpster fire of the year, is that the focus that I've seen come on diversity, inclusion, and equality in organizations like we've never seen it before is reported on by the likes of McKinsey and Gartner. Diversity and inclusion officers at companies have seen just an overwhelming influx of inquiries from line managers and leaders in their organizations that have previously put up barriers to any sort of effort to actually get through to them on why diversity and quality and creating an empathetic and flexible workforce is actually important. Quincy (13m 49s): And these barriers are just melting and really going away where they actually are getting it for once. And I'm really, really grateful for that. And even at my own organization, which has always really, I'm really proud of AMS where we've always really put that at the forefront, they actually live those values. Last week had an entire day for the entire organization of organizing events, just to celebrate diversity inclusion. And you know, what is it like a day in the life of, of working with a disability, you know, where we had actual people who are living that life and other people were, you know, allowed in to live that with them, and a day in the life of working with, as an LGBTQ member of our organization and so on and so forth. Quincy (14m 30s): And so I'm really grateful, you know, it's been a horrible year in that sense for a lot of, in a lot of ways, but people are finally waking up and going, Oh wow, this is important. So I'm hoping that that continues into next year, but I've really seen a shift from it just being window dressing to something that people are actually starting to live and appreciate. Joel (14m 47s): Thank God we had Trump to pull us together as a people. Am I right? Am I right? Diversity and inclusion, a reaction to 2020 and, and the world. All right. My second thankful item without getting too cheesy and it'll sound a little cheesy. No, it's not. I'm thankful for Chad, which I think I actually did in our first year. I'm going to set the plate here. I'm going to put some Turkey, some dressing on this. So Chad and I, at least I know are old enough to remember 2000, 2008 and now 20 and now 2020. Quincy (15m 27s): Chad is. Joel (15m 28s): So 2001, for the kids out there, the dot.com collapse happened. Okay. The job board I was working at went out of business. I was a dot.com casualty. I got to see our whole industry lay waste to a myriad of companies in our business. In 2008, same thing happened, right? I had an, I had my own business. I saw customers drop off the cliff. I saw my business dry up. So when this happened in 2020, and it was locked down, I automatically went back to my life experience and said, Oh my God, half of our sponsors are going to go away in the next 30 days. Joel (16m 11s): And then half of those are going to be gone in the next 30 days after that. And then who knows whether or not they'll ever come back or what's going to happen to the show. And Chad and I had legitimate conversations about, okay, the show might be done. Like we might have to go on hiatus or really pull back the content. Maybe just do the weekly show. Holy hell. If I wasn't just floored! We had two sponsors and I won't name them. We had two sponsors, put their sponsorship on pause. All the others were champs stayed in it. And the show has thrived in this down period in a bigger sense. I don't know if it means, you know, if it means that technology companies are way better equipped to handle sort of, you know, market downturns. Joel (16m 59s): Whereas 12 years ago, 20 years ago, it was everyone was a job site. And if there wasn't job postings, everyone went out of business and closed the doors. So I feel like the industry as a whole is much healthier than it was a decade or two ago. And I think that our show sort of is a microcosm of the health of the industry. Certainly there are, you know, if you make six figures a year, you're potentially living your best life. If you're, if you're way under that 40,000, 50,000 under, life is really tough. So whether or not the companies are still hiring that are using these services that sponsor our show. I don't know, but I'm incredibly thankful. And if you like the show, you should be thankful, that the sponsors have remained healthy and remain supportive of the show. Joel (17m 46s): We even have a fucking new website because our sponsors are so goddamned supportive. And I am super thankful to them in 2020, for sure. It's been a major, major silver lining in my year. Chad (17m 58s): I'm gonna springboard off of that and say that in 2020, we have been given "time" back. So usually we're traveling or on airplanes stages doing conferences in, you know, my ideas, our ideas are, are generally flowing, but we never get a chance to slow the fuck down to execute the hard ones. So in 2020, we had that chance. And, and luckily again, with the w with the sponsors help, we created a virtual FeatureRama. We did a Death Match that were death matches were virtual. We dropped new things like beer drop, free Pappy landed big two episode interview with Cindy Gallop. Chad (18m 43s): We have a Columbia Professor Suresh Naidu, and I do well with a forthcoming episode of the podcast. And we just launched, as Joel said, phase one of our new content strategy with a brand new website designed by Shaker Recruitment Marketing, complete with a swag shop. So t-shirts, coffee mugs, all that stuff. I mean, dude, it's yeah, Speedos. We'll get those on there. Chad and Cheese on each cheek. Okay. But overall and I think this is happening with TA too, which is why we're seeing adoption or at least movement to adoption much faster is we've had the opportunity to take a step back here, at home where we're still doing as much work, but we've got an opportunity to slow down and execute on things we've wanted to execute on for years. Chad (19m 34s): And that's what I'm thankful for. Quincy (19m 36s): That's awesome. Good for you. Joel (19m 39s): Took me a while to get that sound bite. Cause I was tearing up a little bit. Sorry. Sorry. Can we get to the turkeys now? Is it Turkey time? Chad (19m 50s): Quincy, I want to hear your Turkey. Quincy. Quincy (19m 52s): I'll give you my Turkey, but first I have to tell you, give you my appetizers to the Turkey that just came out. Chad (19m 58s): Come on, man. Quincy (19m 60s): So my first appetizer to my, my Turkey is that I didn't win a beer drop. I'm really bitter about that. Joel (20m 5s): It's only one month then. Chad (20m 7s): Yeah, there, there are more, yeah, you've got more. Joel (20m 9s): Patience. This is a forever thing. Chad (20m 12s): And as I said, as a long time bourbon drinker, I'm salivating over the Pappy, so. Yeah. So are we, cause we have to give them away. Joel (20m 22s): I have to look at it every day. Quincy (20m 24s): I know. I know. And the second thing, this just literally just came up right now, but a real, real big Turkey would be. I just heard you say something about having Chad and Cheese on each cheek, please. God, no. No one needs that in their life. President Trump soundbite (20m 40s): Don't be rude. Quincy (20m 43s): The real Turkey of the year is that it's a softball, but it's real is all the job loss, man. Can we be done with that? Let's get through the rest of this year and look forward into a new, I'm going to say it and new administration and some new hope and come on, big pharma up for once and bring forth the vaccine and let's get back to doing what we do. Joel (21m 2s): Chad enjoys getting some time back and taking a breath. I'm ready to get back on a plane and go somewhere. Quincy (21m 7s): I'm ready to get back on a plane and go somewhere too. Chad (21m 10s): Don't don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. So here's a question for everybody real quick. If the shot came out tomorrow at the 95%, that it is right now, would everybody roll up their sleeve and take it? Quincy (21m 21s): I will. I'm in. Chad (21m 23s): I'm in. Joel (21m 24s): Dude, how is your poll has very few answers to date, but almost 46% won't. I don't understand, that's a different podcast, but I don't understand how half of our fellow citizens think vaccines are bullshit or dangerous or whatever. It just blows me away. Quincy (21m 40s): Don't know, but I'll be in line first and I'll be the first back on a plane. Chad (21m 44s): Damm straight. Quincy (21m 45s): So let's make it happen and get some jobs back for people. Joel (21m 50s): Okay. It's time for my Turkey of the year. My God, my list is long. I'll preface this a little bit with, with my age again. Okay. Every so often when a consumer business pops people run to create the jobs of whatever it is, that's popular. Chad (22m 8s): Tinder! Joel (22m 8s): Okay. So, so when I'll go, I'll go back even further. So when Facebook popped, you guys probably remember Branch Out and Be Known, right? Like everyone and then even had like social networks for jobs and people are going to like socialize over jobs and da da da. So all those businesses are gone. And then you, then you had, yes. So Chad talked about the Tinder for jobs, right? Like people are just gonna look at job listings and swipe left or right. With little relevancy to a search query or what I actually do. There's no AI around, Oh, we'll just access your LinkedIn profile and know what jobs you're looking for. And we'll give you like, it's just total random jobs. Joel (22m 50s): And just because you swipe right or left, people think, Oh, it's going to be a successful business because dating was successful in that. Forget the fact that dating apps like come down to whether you're having sex or not. And jobs have no relevancy to that whatsoever. So when the TikTok thing happened, you know, late last year, obviously I knew no one's going to do this. Right? Because Snap, I feel like there weren't any really Snapchat for jobs that were even on the radar there probably some out there. But when Tik Tok came up, I thought, Oh no, one's going to be dumb enough to do that. So about two months ago I posted on LinkedIn and I jokingly said, okay, which one of you is dumb enough to create Tik Tok for jobs. Joel (23m 31s): People laugh like oh that would be really stupid and no way. And then I get a DM saying, Oh, it's here. Meet Heroes Jobs. Okay. So you go to heroes.jobs, essentially TikTok for jobs and a site called heroes.jobs. We talked about these guys a few weeks ago. They're slightly offended. They're a bit pissed off that we talked about them. I'm sure they're very nice people, but this thing is hot garbage destined for the dust bin of employment site history, technology history. I downloaded this thing against my best judgment. You go through it and they at least get your location. Joel (24m 14s): Okay. And then they just send you jobs that aren't their jobs, I'm sure, they're probably pulled from some API and it gets you the listing, right? There's no, there's no personality. They make it look like all these companies are gonna have cool videos about what it's like to work there. There are no videos. It's just stupid job postings. And then if you went on to apply, they expect you to do the cool video about what you're looking for. And then they promise like, Oh, you'll be chatting with the employer, which I doubt. And then they, and then if you go to their website, they sort of pitched like, Oh, heroes for, you know, essential workers. And we're doing our part to defeat COVID and get people back to work. So they're almost sort of leveraging the pandemic to pull your heart strings, to use this crappy shit technology. Joel (24m 60s): Anyway, my Turkey with a bullet, not even really that hard was heroes.jobs or Heroes Jobs soon to be coming to a dead pool near you. Hopefully we'll be talking about that in the next six months or so heroes jobs, Turkey galore. Thank you. Chad (25m 21s): Nice. Yeah. Hope to get them on the Firing Squad so they can sell us on it. Cause I really liked to hear, I really, really would. Joel (25m 29s): I'm gonna have to find soundbites of not only machine guns, but like atom bombs going off and screams of curdling zombies. Yeah. There'll be a, it will be a Firing Squad to remember. Chad (25m 41s): That's going to happen. Yes. And while we're in that kind of a, that mindset, I'm going to talk about my Turkey, who has been around for a very long time and should have exploded, but they didn't and that's DHI and mainly Dice. So DHI is a sink and ship and Dice is the anchor dragging them down. And Q3 Dice continued its fall and fell by 13.5%. Their renewal rate is 63% down from previous reports. Guess what? They just launched Quincy. Guess what? Quincy (26m 19s): I don't know what, do tell? Chad (26m 21s): DICE Instant messaging! That's right. That's right. That just came out. Art Zeal, the CEO of DHI says quote, "Dice, instant messaging offers a win-win for skilled technologists and the recruiters and employers looking to discover and engage with them." Close quote. So we're talking about a platform trying to pull in technologists, developers, anybody on the technology side, but they're mimicking old strategies. Dice should have partnered with a conversational AI provider so that they could use platforms like WhatsApp, Facebook, SMS, or whatever messaging app a user would choose and Dice doesn't get a pass on this because they're not a startup. Chad (27m 8s): If they were to start up and they came out with this as a base, it would make sense, but they didn't. And overall we've seen Dice pretty much get pushed to the side, where brands like HackerRank, Get Hub, all of these different communities, right, have really blown past them. And what Dice keeps saying is they are building a marketplace, but what they're building is, pretty much a cemetery, because all that shit's going to go away and die. Joel (27m 37s): I was really hoping you're going to use like the come up snake eyes on, on a, on a roll with the dice there. Anyway, I'll add to that. When, when Zeal came on, about three years ago, I think two, three years ago, he pounded the table about innovation and we're going to make, you know, like we're going to get high tech and innovative on this because the former CEO was basically a pencil pusher. He was a CFO from back in the day. And the fact that that two, three years later, we have messaging as a big innovation from Dice is just really sad and it is gobble worthy, for sure. Quincy (28m 15s): I have a really quick, I have a Turkey, which of the two of you is controlling the gobbler on this, on this podcast? It's a little bit overused. Joel (28m 24s): I'm the master of the podcasting universe. Chad (28m 27s): I am master of the production universe, which means I'll take half of them out. Quincy (28m 31s): Sweet! President Trump soundbite (28m 31s): Don't be rude. Chad (28m 35s): Overall, that is what we're thankful for. I am also thankful for, for Quincy coming on, Queen of chatbots. I know you're a busy as hell. You just launched Hourly for God's sakes. President Trump soundbite (28m 49s): We did. Chad (28m 51s): And you're putting it through, through obviously, you know, the rigors with, with new new clients, but also being able to scale and handle all of those goddamn users that are coming through, which is exactly why I think TA is really warming up because they know they're not going to be able to scale when they need to hire so props to Hourly and AMS. Thanks for thanks for coming on Quincy. Quincy (29m 16s): Thanks for having me again. Joel (29m 18s): Where would our listeners that don't know find out more? Quincy (29m 20s): We are hourly.com Joel (29m 23s): And with that another Thanksgiving show in the books. We out. Chad (29m 29s): We out. Quincy (29m 31s): See ya, OUTRO (29m 32s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

In light of some recent news surrounding the funding of Jobcase, the boys thought it'd be a good time to bring CEO Fred Goff on the podcast and get the nitty-gritty from the source. Topics like current state of the economy, hiring trends and site traffic all get covered too. Enjoy this Sovren powered podcast! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Sovren (1s): Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now based on that technology come Sovren's artificial intelligence. matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second receive match results that provide candidate scored by fit to job. And just as importantly, the jumps fit to the candidate make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's sovren.com. Sovren (32s): We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren Software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Intro (43s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HRS most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (1m 13s): Hello today. We are super excited to welcome Fred Goff. Chad (1m 18s): Wait a minute. Wait a minute. He's my favorite SNL character. "You're spending the night with Fred Garvin: Male prostitute." Joel (1m 27s): You just know you just aged. You aged us out of about a third of the demographics that usually listen to us. Fred, welcome to the show, man. Where does the podcast find you today? Fred (1m 38s): Thanks guys. This is great to be here. You're finding me actually at the first day, I'm actually at 201 Broadway, Cambridge, Massachusetts in Jobcase headquarters. I am the office in the office, the only person, because the office is technically still closed, but I had an occasion to be here. And so I thought I'll talk to Chad and Cheese from the office. Joel (1m 58s): Yeah. How long are you gonna stay? Shut down. Are you doing like a, a Google style? Not reopening until 2032 or something? Fred (2m 5s): Well, yeah, it might be. We, we went remote on March 12th. I think we kind of put a color code in to make it kind of easy. And one, the color code we went to is red. So nobody comes in right now. We had told the team, kind of early on, back in April, we told the team, we have this yellow color code, which is we that's where if you, we would staff the office and be here, but you don't have to be. And we already said, there's no situation where you would have to choose to come to work. Fred (2m 37s): You should feel free independently to work from home or wherever you want for the rest of the year. That said, I expect that post labor day, we'll probably open up in some small fashion and staff support for the office in some small fashion. And it's probably more about independent work. I think guys that, you know, we have 30,000 square feet of square feet of space here, and there's an awful lot of folks that are based in Boston that might enjoy having some, some space to work instead of at home. Fred (3m 7s): So I think that it absolutely won't be a mandate to come work at the headquarters, but we think it can be something that a lot of folks might enjoy if we can get it running again. Joel (3m 17s): And, and you're not in the low rent district, by the way. Fred (3m 20s): Yeah. Yeah. That was like, that was a good lease to sign. We're more expensive where we are the Midtown Manhattan we're right next to the computer science, artificial intelligence lab at MIT by design. And that's pretty expensive real estate. Chad (3m 36s): So you can go ahead and, and abducted those computer sciences whenever you need them. Yeah. Yeah. They're all, we're all busy trying to protect us from the next election results and making sure they're honest. So I'll get them after the first easy November, we need them to focus on the right stuff. So they're practicing their Russian right now. Okay. Gotcha. What do you think about remote moving forward, especially for your team, the end of the year kind of partitioning that off, but when everything opens back up, we've seen so many companies talk about they're going to reduce their footprint. Chad (4m 11s): Obviously it does save overhead and, and not a low rent district that you're in. What are your thoughts about that in offering more remote, kind of a ability? Fred (4m 22s): Well, that's the question of the hour, isn't it? So that's a good one. And my only hesitation is, would do this in consultation with my team and people in culture. But in, in general, I am among the CEOs in the country, who prior to COVID was concerned about remote in terms of we get so much benefit from getting people together etcetera, and post COVID have really understood how productive remote work can be. And it can open up our talent base outside of the Boston community. Fred (4m 53s): So we're absolutely going to see an adjustment. I don't see a reduction in footprint. I see we're all going to be using our space differently. So I don't see, you know, we're going to still appreciate the 30,000 square feet we have and probably even expand eventually. But I do see a different cadences of work. I see probably more autonomy and people deciding whether they want to work remote or in the office, but I suspect we'll get to some normal cadence where number of days a week, you really want everybody in for those ideation sessions and whiteboards. Fred (5m 23s): And other days it's more optional and more autonomy. I'm definitely going to be different, but I, I'm not on the side of, it's great to be remote 100%. I really miss having my team. I missed the feedback. I think organizations need the glue. Joel (5m 37s): So I'm curious, sort of Jobcase wise from a, from an employer perspective, I'm curious about what you're saying as a site. So my, my assumption would be, you know, 40 million newly unemployed people that you guys need more servers or cloud space to handle all the traffic... Fred (-): Explosion! Joel (5m 57s): But hearing it from you, what do you, what's your take on what you guys are seeing traffic wise? Is there certain segments that surprise you? What's going on with that? Fred (6m 6s): So the surprise was in the second quarter. So as you guys well know the normal physics of the labor markets are as unemployment rates go up activity of, of on the consumer side: job seeker workers, employees, or whatever your perspective, rises. This was this overnight depression level we had, actually saw traffic drop across the industry, not just us, everywhere. I think we had less drop than others, but we were, that is not the normal physics of the market. And initially conjecture was the extra ordinary unemployment insurance support was having people stay sidelined. Fred (6m 43s): That's not our view as the dust settles. Our view is that the inventory of jobs and other content that, that companies like ours and others use to provoke interest and access had just plummeted. I mean, there was just nothing. And so how many times do you tell someone about the same three or four jobs? And that activity was down, as activity picks up going into the third quarter, we're seeing traffic really just start to skyrocket again. But the surprise was the absence of a traffic in April and may when one would have thought that, that would run through, but who knows maybe some as the dust settles guys, maybe that's also part of the lockdown. Fred (7m 18s): Maybe, it's also part of COVID concerns, but I think that's in the rear view mirror and I think normal physics of labor markets move forward much the same, that in the middle of it, you wondered why crude could settle negative on the exchange. And now it's back to normal, normal markets and crude. I think the dislocations are done and we're back to kind of normal normal physics. Joel (7m 37s): And how about from an employer perspective or customer perspective? What are your what's sort of your takeaways from the last few months? Fred (7m 43s): Pleasantly surprised that the activity on the employer side for us is, is higher than last year and, and continues to grow. I think that we're fortunate. We kind of focus on enterprise and agency and staffing and very strong in employers that hire large volumes at scale. And that tends to be a lot of ETL related, transportation related. And so that is kind of went on fire in the second quarter and continues in the third. Fred (8m 14s): I think the listeners of yours and some of our friends that focus on smaller business and hospitality and restaurant, that must be a lot tougher in the COVID era, but I think what's comforting to anybody who's in the labor marketplace as a business, which I think is a lot of your listeners is that the activity of employers using resources and tools to staff, their firms that continues. We don't see a trend of with high unemployment, people are just waiting for organic applications and not interacting with the marketplace. Fred (8m 46s): As we know, it, it, it appears that the activity is actually increasing, not decreasing to get more effective and efficient. And I think that's positive for everyone, employers, job seekers and intermediary alike. Chad (8m 57s): Are company's coming to you that you haven't seen before? What we're hearing from vendors right now is, is many companies are trying to warp speed their tech so that they can scale later. Fred (9m 9s): That's, that's a really pressing question, Chad. We are quite frankly, we've had a very large step function in our number of relationships and our depth of relationships in, in many different employers side of the equation. And our perception is based on two dominant themes from us. One is we, we do have a tremendous amount of scale that we've achieved, and there's not a lot of players out there with the scale that we're able to leverage, for folks. And the second one is, you know, the front pages of every paper are starting to talk about the talking points Jobcase has been championing for five years. Fred (9m 43s): We've been talking about worker value and frontline value and, and better treatment, whether it's a benefits coverage for 1099 or pass a living wage for hourly workers, we can keep going through this. We even are obviously strongly on, on a proponent of, of black lives matter and racial justice issues. And as, as these issues come to the forefront, I think, and I hope that one of the reasons we're gaining some traction is people understand that we have authenticity in, in these concerns. And I think that we have helped. Fred (10m 13s): I had one CHR reach out and he said to me guys, he said, it's really interesting comment. And he called up and he said, he had heard some podcasts. Maybe yours, let's say it was a Chad & Cheese that it was, yeah, let's re-cut that. And he had actually called from Europe and they've got a us operation. And he said, he called me. He said, because he called Jobcase. He said, they have a bunch of frontline workers that were working throughout the second quarter because they're in food prep in this business, big fortune 500 business. And he's thinking they just can't treat them. Fred (10m 43s): They can't call them heroes during the second quarter of COVID and then treat them the same way they did before, afterwards, what can they do to help people with skills and upskills and a whole bunch of questions in, and he had called us with ideas. Cause he knows we've been thinking about that for a while. We've been doing things with Joe Fuller at Harvard and stuff. And so my point is I think that our authenticity about really caring about workers is also a right for the moment as well. And so, yeah, we have a lot new relationships and if anyone's listening to this and we welcome more. Chad (11m 12s): You point out a very, very important topic around essential or heroes, right? It's hard to look at somebody and say, well, they're just doing this job, one minute and then the next call them a hero. And then try to think that that just goes away. That they're not essential anymore, that they're not quote unquote a hero anymore. So the big question is for employers, and we've talked about this on the show, we've seen employers drive wages up and add wages during, during this, this danger pay, kind of scenario, but then take it away. Chad (11m 50s): Jobcase being a community. Do the actual Jobcasers talk about this is, is there, are there topics that are, that are actually trending because of this on Jobcase? What does the community actually do to pretty much pull people together and then perspectively advocate for them? Fred (12m 7s): A couple of thoughts on that, a lot of the advocacy is, is kind of our responsibility. So we, we tend to think in step one empower people individually. And given the scale we have, how do we leverage that scale to advocate for workers? So in as an example, pre-COVID and February 14th, Delta airlines had a windfall bonus. They distributed to their employees. Now last September, Jamie Diamond on JP Morgan and the business round table got a hundred and some CEOs to say, it's about stakeholder value, not shareholder value going forward. Fred (12m 39s): We love that statement, but that same year, JP Morgan did a $40 billion shareholder buyback. And our thought is, well, you could have taken 20% of that,. 8 billion and distributed it as a windfall bonus. And you'd still have 32 billion for shareholders. We're not saying one versus the other, but one with the other and those individual employees of JP Morgan could have taken the 35,000 bonus home, which means a ton to a frontline teller. So when Delta does it proactively, what we did is we took out a national campaign, not telling our membership to work for Delta. Fred (13m 10s): I mean, of course we did that, but the point was fly Delta. The point was let's reward employers who treat workers well with consumer dollars. And so that is something that we're doing to advocate. In terms of the conversation in the community. I would love to say, this is the point, Chad, I would love to say that Target did it permanently and moved to 15 bucks and people are celebrating that in the community, but, but the reality is people are hurting and a lot of our community is surfacing the anxiety of, of the pain. You know, we, you saw, I think we communicated through social media, you and I, in the same week, there's an article about, you know, mansions and pools selling in Greenwich. Fred (13m 47s): And, and they're talking about all these bonuses on wall street and the government stepped in and protected the investor class by basically dropping the size of the Japanese economy into the markets. And meanwhile, 33% of our fellow citizens, aren't paying their rent on time in July. And that's what the UI. And so we're looking at this 11% unemployment, but I don't, I don't think these stats are right guys. We have one state that we're pretty close to and we're talking to the other day. And I asked them how many unemployment checks they've sent out. Fred (14m 18s): This is a pretty senior person in the governor's office of a state. And the number they gave me is three times the amount that was in the BLS number. And, and I don't think this is conspiracy theory. I don't think it's tinfoil hat. What I think is, as a guy who's used to trade on these numbers and now watches, I'm in a different capacity. These surveys, these methodologies for the national unemployment, they they're made for relative gauges are made for incremental steps are not made for Massachusets to go from 2.8 in February to 18% in May. It's the methodologies aren't catching up yet. Fred (14m 48s): And so the community isn't yet talking about employers that are doing the right thing and realizing in the moment, treat people better, keep treating them after, we're advocating for that. The community is trying to figure out how the heck they can get their next paycheck. And are they going to lose their job if they still have one? Joel (15m 3s): Well, not the best segue, but I want to pivot to this Fred, we, we, we got you on the show primarily because there was a news release from July 9th earlier in the month. And it talked about you guys getting new funding and, and Chad and I talked about it on the show and there was some confusion about what exactly happened. I know Workday Ventures was involved. So the primary reason you're on the show. And we're obviously, obviously talking about other things, but can you clear up the news and what happened for our listeners who got to hear us bumble over what exactly happened? Chad (-): Give us the Dirt, Give us the Dirt Fred (15m 40s): I'm very happy to have the opportunity, but I'm, I'm even happier that you said this is the primary reason to get on the show at the opening. I thought the primary reason was to call me a male prostitute. So this is a step up, so thank you for that. Joel (15m 51s): It's better than a Steelers fan, right? Fred (15m 53s): Ah, come on bro. You're wrong on the yinzer Browns man. Come on. It's Stealers for those don't know I'm a big Steelers fan. So there you go. Sure. I happy to say this. This is a huge inflection point for our company and we're really excited about it. There were three things that happen in a capital transaction that we announced at the end of the second quarter or three components of it. One component is, we have had a dominant shareholder that helped us make a transition from the hedge fund years ago into the consumer internet space and has been a strong partner. Fred (16m 25s): We really appreciate when we made the conversion in 2014 to launching Jobcase and this mission driven company. They have been looking to the right time for them to make an exit. That's a long time to, to stand aside one company for that kind of a mission from a firm like them. At the same time, Providence Strategic Growth, which is just a fabulous partner of ours, great character bag, great ability to helping companies scale and, and a great track record is, was interested in owning and stepping up and having a stronger stake in, in Jobcase. Fred (16m 57s): So part of the transaction was between the two of them where Providence strategic growth has. And that was part of the announcement taken a larger majority ownership in the company. And we saw one friend say so long for now. And, and another friend step up. The second part of the transaction was a $30 million primary raise, they call it. Which meant the company took $30 million onto our own balance sheet. And that is a combination. The deal was a combination of Providence Strategic Growth. And as you mentioned, the third part of the announcement is Workday Ventures. Fred (17m 29s): And so a change of a dominant shareholder, 30 million invested additionally to that, into the company and then welcoming Workday into our ownership structure and what we're really excited about it. I think one of the things that drove, it was a lot of appreciation and empathy for our mission. When we talk with Workday and we talk with PSG, it's not just about empowering workers and, and this moment that we were just talking about, but also a vision of where labor marketplaces should go. We've been advocating for a long time about removing friction, about basically this platform to manage the future of work, without people have to take the reins of control in their own hand. Fred (18m 7s): You have to have one place where there has to be co-ownership of data. The employer can own your data, but you have to own it too, and you should have the right to surface it, how you want. So the concept that we have a community to support you and this mechanism to try to be an agnostic platform, to remove friction and kind of labor marketplace appeal to both Workday and PSG. And, and I think the three of us together are very aligned to do, one, lean into a lot of the product development and motions and that includes products for employers and agencies and staffing that are trying to access our community. Fred (18m 38s): But, two work really closely with Workday on that latter part, I just said. I think that we have been a firm that since we were started our focus, we go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning, thinking about our members, thinking about workers, thinking about employees, and to have a partner at the table like Workday, that can help us interact with all of their client partners. And, and a lot of the projects they have is just really exciting, not just to have their, their insights in the boardroom, but also to think about where we can find new partnerships to remove that friction between employer and employee. Chad (19m 11s): So Fred, not too long ago, you guys raised a hundred million dollars and now you have, it sounds like investors competing to be majority owners for God's sakes. It doesn't sound like a bad problem to have. Am I getting this wrong? Joel (19m 28s): Like an episode of the bachelor over at Jobcase. Fred (19m 31s): There are people out there in this country struggling with a lot worse issues and we have, but I think that the, I think the stakes are high now, Chad and Joel, I think that, you know, we, what's fun about our day job. I'm, I'm just so appreciative of the Jobcase employees. Like, it's just, it's hard for everybody everybody's listening to this, this, this 2020 is a tough year and we have people just working so incredibly hard and, and yes, we're proud that the business might be growing and yes, we love the new partners, but what's rewarding is watching what's happening in community. Fred (20m 3s): We had a team, because we replatform technology last year with some of that investment from that a hundred million round, you said we were able to stand up an unemployment center in like two weeks that has been really helpful for a lot of our members to navigate this. So many people don't even have their checks even now. Like how do you deal with that? And then to surface opportunities, you know, we have this lady, Evelyn Mysong on our site as an example, and okay, she lost her job, but she's able to identify through somebody in the community and talking about this call center certificate. And next thing you know, she's got to work from home offers, she's been productive and she's got a new skill in moving forward. Fred (20m 38s): And so that's really what drives. And so I think when we, when we have that mission and, and when you look at the moment, it's hard to see how that won't be relevant for next few years. There's a lot of people that want to join that and we welcome partners, anybody who's going to come to this fight that we can help or want to join us in any way or partner in any way. We can do something to help people that are going to be navigating a really difficult work life for the next few years. Boy, we would love to work with you or partnering with you. And, and in some cases, take your investment and putting it in our balance sheet to secure our ability of succeeding. Joel (21m 13s): So of the, the working with, and partnering with, and Chad and I, as, as you as well, are seeing a lot of carnage in our industry. And I think we'll, we'll see more and more carnage going, going through the next into 2021. So I'm not going to ask you who's on your acquisition list or who's on the M and A short list, but I am curious about, are you seeing an increase in companies coming to you to try to partner or try to, you know, get, get your money and buy the company? Are you more aggressive in terms of looking at potential deals out there? Joel (21m 46s): What are you seeing from your, your C suite? Fred (21m 48s): There's a number of spaces in, in our industry. We define it as talent acquisition or labor marketplace. It was pretty active at looking for capital transactions in 2019. You're absolutely right. Joel. It's like the activity is really high in 2020, a lot of conversations going on. So yes, there's a velocity of intentions of conversations happening pretty, pretty high. Our perspective is yes, we are interested at, at considering growth on multiple fronts. You know, you kind of short phrase it to build, buy. Fred (22m 20s): And, but the fun is I don't have extraordinary expertise in that when I was on the street, that's not what I did. My CFO come from Bain. She's extremely well versed in this and Providence Strategic Growth has just an incredible team on this. And I could not, as a, if you have any entrepreneurs or any founders on this call, I could not speak higher of them as a partner in terms of if you need a thought partner to talk to. So I'm, I'm going to rely on our CFO and our friends at Providence to help frame that for us. We're definitely interested. And you're right. Fred (22m 50s): There is a large amount of activity. Joel (22m 52s): Just to make sure PR is circled on that so that the Chad and cheese podcast knows about any acquisitions that take place. Fred (22m 58s): I think you guys are the only people I've talked to about this transaction. So we we've started the precedent here, I think, Oh yeah, Fred, we appreciate Chad (23m 7s): You taking time. We know that you, you didn't just go in the office for us. We understand that, but we hope that you enjoy your time alone in the office. And if people want to find out more about partnership investment, or maybe they just want a job, where should they go? Joel (-): Acquistion Fred (23m 25s): Well, you said brother, jobcase.com. You can send me a message. Direct at fjgolf@jobcase.com. If you are off the site and I just closed, let me say that, that you give me this chance of saying something. It, this notion of it's hard out there for people. This is no small thing. The inequality is increasing just dramatically. The potential for social unrest is just going to be dramatic art, federal government. Isn't going to do much about it, but everybody listening here, I know you have a really powerful audience. I know your audience is actually a little more powerful than what they probably give themselves credit for, you know, scrub the job listings you have. Fred (24m 1s): Do you really need those degree requirements? Can you look for skills and widen the pool of candidates you're looking at beyond the fact that they're blocked from getting fast to funding or, or a community that put them into a four year degree, little things like that. Can you, can you make the move to thinking about being the person in the room, using technology to replace a task, not a job. Can you, can you do something in your part of the world to help this unemployment rate, to help workers? If, if we do this decentralized guys, we can actually try to lessen the pain here, but it's not going to come from federal government or coordination. Fred (24m 34s): It's obvious. But I think your community, you got agencies, you've got employers, you have this incredible community that can just start to move the needle. And you know, one more hire, one less hard requirement. That's unnecessary can start to move the needle. So I just would encourage everyone to that might still be listening after this to say, what can you do this week that could even help one person? And if everybody on this show can do that, that will have a material impact. And let's just keep that going forward. Chad (25m 1s): Amen. Fred well said! Well said! applause Joel (25m 5s): With authority, Fred Goff Fred (25m 9s): Thank you very much guys, always love talking with you. Joel (25m 10s): You betya Chad (25m 11s): You got it, man. We out! Joel (25m 11s): Go brownies ! We out! Outro (25m 14s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out. Pic Props to - 3D graphics image by Quince Creative

Susan Vitale, CMO at popular ATS iCIMS, has 15 years experience in the industry. In addition to just being one of our favorite people, she's always a great person to have on and talk shop. In this episode, Susan tells the boys about the latest iCIMS rebrand, where applicant tracking systems will be in 10 years, who's coming to their online conference, and much more. Enjoy this SOVREN exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Sovren (1s): You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal" like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. INTRO (1m 5s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (1m 24s): Monday, Monday, Monday, what's up everybody. This is Joel Cheeseman of the Chad and Cheese podcast as always I'm joined by my faithful cohost Chad Sowash. Chad, how are you? Chad (1m 37s): Hello. Joel (1m 38s): 'ello there. Chad (1m 38s): 'ello. Joel (1m 39s): Today, we are honored, very honored to have the illustrious. Chad (1m 42s): OK, that's strong. Joel (1m 44s): iCIMS Chief Marketing Officer, friend of the show, Susan Vitale! Chad (1m 49s): Hooray! Applause (1m 50s): clapping and cheers. Joel (1m 51s): 15 year veteran. She's a little scared to be on the show today, Chad, I, I don't know why. Chad (1m 58s): Probably, cause you played that sound effects about 20 times. He was like, what the fuck is going on? Joel (2m 5s): All right, Susan, for, for those lost souls that don't know who you are, give them, give them the spiel real quick Susan Vitale (2m 10s): OK, Doke. Well, I'm Susan Vitale. I'm the Chief Marketing Officer with iCIMS, the Talent Cloud Company that empowers organizations to attract, engage, hire, advance, diverse winning teams. I lead our brand and growth marketing efforts. And as you mentioned, been with the company for just over 15 years now, so honored to be here and luckily to be back with you. And I mean that sincerely. Joel (2m 34s): Honored to be here. Chad (2m 36s): Let's let let's dig into that, but that past a little bit, shall we Susan? So you climbed the corporate ladder and now you're the CMO, totally get that. But let's start at the beginning. So in 2005, you graduated from Lehigh. Then you went straight to iCIMS as a marketing coordinator. Tell us that story. How did you get the gig? Who did you report to and why did you take the job in the first place? What does an applicant tracking system in 2005? Susan Vitale (3m 3s): It's funny. So I was in college and I got a call. My resume had been found on MonsterTrak for those of us who remember that. And I date myself. I got a call when I was a senior in college at Lehigh university, interested in chatting further about some opportunities by our then director of marketing and sales, Adam Feigenbaum. Came in and took an interview and I've been very honest with Eisenhower that I had no intentions of actually taking a job at an applicant tracking software company and have what New Jersey in a dentist office suite. It was really an opportunity to get some experience with an interview, but got to meet Adam, got to meet Collin, our founder and now chairman and really just wonderful people is as you both well know, great opportunity and both of those, the people in the opportunity have kept me here for now past 15 years, Chad (3m 56s): There've been a ton of changes in our industry since you've joined. Obviously what are some of the biggest changes, especially around applicant tracking? Susan Vitale (4m 4s): Well, I think applicant tracking is blocking and tackling, for talent acquisition or recruiting software. Nowadays. I think the pendulum continues to swing over the years of best of breed, full suite, best of breed, full suite. One of the big milestones. I think I, if I recall in our company's history is our move back in 2012 to say, we're not going to go across all things, talent management and go an inch deep mile wide. We see recruiting as critically important, it's consumer facing it's different from the rest of HR, but it's more than just applicant tracking. And that's where we really started to make some investment and put some energy behind areas like new hire onboarding and candidate relationship management, and video and social and mobile and things like that. Susan Vitale (4m 50s): So to me, that's been the biggest shift. Almost anybody can say they have applicant tracking software, but to have something that's really rich and, you know writing for today's global enterprise is a different story, but an ATS alone is certainly not enough. The other big thing I've mentioned is that probably since I've been in this industry, pundits will say the ATS is dead. The ATS is dying, the ATS is going away. And I've yet to see that actually. Yeah, Joel (5m 17s): As, as heartwarming as that trip down memory lane was, let's talk about the present and you guys have recently rebranded. So the sharp red, the italics SIMS and the i, and Ike... Chad (5m 34s): Ike! Joel (5m 35s): ... All that stuff like, so walk us through the why and the how of the rebrand. Susan Vitale (5m 41s): Well, it's been a really fulfilling experience and I mean, that it's been an exhausting experience to go through a brand refresh like this, but it's been really fun too. So probably about seven months ago or so we were thinking about where our is, was, is going and how that lined up with the industry, what the industry, where the industry was, is, and was going and felt like there was an opportunity for iCIMS to better reflect where we fit in and where we're going, and frankly, where we want to take the industry. And so there was an opportunity to say from a look and feel perspective, certainly, I mean, that's really the fun part of a lot of this, but just as importantly, if not more importantly is the story that goes alongside it and the way in which we represent our portfolio to our customers and the market overall. Susan Vitale (6m 31s): So we went through lots and lots of research and strategy work. It doesn't just happen overnight as I'm sure you both are well aware. So we went through a lot of strategy work related to what our employees were feeling, what customers were feeling, et cetera, and really wanted to spend a lot of time on this concept of a brand archetype. There is a wheel of brand architects out there and we landed in this creator archetype that says, we're here to create what's next. And just as importantly, we're here to enable and empower others to create what's next for their own organizations. And you can create amazing things when you have the right people on the right team at the right time. And that's sort of like the goosebumps you get when things are clicking and jiving, et cetera. Susan Vitale (7m 14s): So that was really the kind of the heart behind it. And then of course, we got to do some really beautiful work from a creative perspective. We did think about changing the name, but, but ISIMs has some phenomenal brand equity out there. Joel (7m 28s): What were some of the names that you floated out there that didn't get caught up? Susan Vitale (7m 32s): Oh, I'm saving all of them for when I create my own company one of these days. Chad (7m 36s): Good answer, good answer. Joel (7m 39s): Did you pay for outside help or was this all internal? Susan Vitale (7m 43s): We did. We worked with a number of different agencies, but also a number of our internal resources, were not just involved actually, despite working with some third party agencies, one of our in-house designers came up with our new logo. So shout out to Kevin and our entire design and creative team, including Aggie and Justine, and many, many other people that worked their ass off. And I think they did an absolute, tremendous job. And I'm so proud that their work really is setting the stage for the iSIMS of the future. Joel (8m 13s): Wow! Listen to you, many outside companies, you guys are just printing money there at iCIMS aren't you. So speaking of printing money, you guys have. Susan Vitale (8m 22s): We didn't know where it's going to go, but it's a beautiful space. Joel (8m 25s): Susan, just roll with it. So speaking of printing money, you guys have a conference coming up with some pretty big names, performing presenting, I don't even know what to call it when they're this big of a celebrity. Talk about that and, and how much, you know, Trevor Noah and those guys costs to actually have come to your event. Susan Vitale (8m 44s): Hahahaha. Joel (8m 46s): Cause we want them to be at our event, right Chad? Susan Vitale (8m 50s): Yeah. Yeah. So we do have, we have iCIMS inspire coming up. It's actually our first time doing a big ass amazing virtual conference of this size, big ass is this very specific way that we count the number of registrants and so that's the territory we are now in. So we've got thousands and thousands of incredible registrants here. The event is November 17th and 18th. It is happening live virtually, although the sessions will be available on demand as well. And you mentioned we have some awesome speakers. So we're having a keynote conversation with Mindy Kaling and Trevor Noah who have been lovely to work with. And I now feel like I can call them just by Mindy and Trevor, because we're good friends. Joel (9m 34s): Oh, fancy. Susan Vitale (9m 35s): Now, we also have Moira Forbes. We have Jason Dorsey, who knows quite a lot about in a very interesting way, all these different generations and how we can connect with and work with different generations. We have Janette Renee, who is really phenomenal in areas of wellness and self care, which I can't help as soon as I say that to look at the giant bag of gummy bears on my desk, which has been my lunch. So we need to talk with her. We have Cynthia Marshall, I don't know if either of you have heard her speak before she is freaking awesome. She is the CEO of Dallas Mavericks and has done an unbelievable job as it relates to diversity and inclusion and culture at that organization. Susan Vitale (10m 18s): We also have Erica Bellini, who I love! You two might remember, I was just so delighted to have her at our influence event last year. And we also have really amazing customer speakers talking about their experiences, their stories, some of which have been customers of ours for a long time. Some are newer, but as an example, Tommy Watt who leads TA and Mobility, and as the Chief Diversity Officer of Memorial Sloan Kettering. We have Marie Artem, who I love from Enterprise Holdings. We have Chloe Radha from Sedexo and a host of just really fantastic talent. We're so proud to put on the event! Joel (10m 55s): Are Chad and Cheese is going to be there? Susan Vitale (10m 58s): You tell me, I hope so! Chad (11m 2s): I'd like to put in a request for Moira Rose from Schitt's Creek next year. That'd be great! Susan Vitale (11m 9s): Hahaha, that's awesome. Have you seen some of these little kids dressed up as Shitt's Creek for Halloween that's been circulating online. It's so funny. Chad (11m 19s): It is, that's pretty amazing. I want to go back a little bit to the feeling of being able to be that brand. I mean, you've been the brand, the colors, the Ike for over a decade. I know the refreshing piece that finally became refreshing, but how hard was that? Because that was pretty much, those were your colors. That was your logo that literally personally, I would have thought felt like it was yours. How hard was it to break out of that shell? Susan Vitale (11m 52s): Way easier than you'd expect. I mean, I think we've done a good job of trying to retain some core elements to our brand. So for example, we still have red as part of our color palette. It's just part of the secondary. Ike is still there, but it has a little bit of a make-over. The name itself, I mean, we truly scrutinized and agonized over a lot of these things and it becomes truly, as, as you have these conversations with folks inside and outside the organization, you feel like somebody is recording you because it becomes this satire of what happens in a marketing meeting where we're like splitting hairs over these really silly things, but they matter. And there, there are emotional connections to a brand for the employees, for the customers. I mean, you would not imagine how many notes I got internally of people saying you can't get rid of Ike. Susan Vitale (12m 41s): My customers are obsessed. Here are pictures of our customers with just like a shrine to Ike, which is both troubling and awesome. So we really did try and consider that and ensure that the best parts of our legacy came through and in the future. But man, we were ready for it. We were so ready for it and just needed the opportunity and the energy behind it to do it. So, you know, it's a very personal thing for me, as you know, and, and actually there were times I got a little emotional going through it because I'm like this really matters. And I'm so proud of what we've built in February we announced our 20 year anniversary as a company. And I felt like this is the right time to do it, right? We can put this, this history in a box, but a glass box. So we can keep looking back at it and being really proud of what we've done, but let's take this thing to the next level, for the next chapter. Chad (13m 26s): So Kevin, yeah, you can reach out to us buddy, cause we want to hear all the stories about the time she gave you the evil eye over this new logo, moving on. So from the standpoint of repackaging, I mean, this is a new message. It's a new iCIMS. Why was it necessary? Susan Vitale (13m 44s): Well, there were a couple of practical reasons that were part of this and there were also some maybe less practical and more, just more future facing reasons. But when I look at the practical side, we have built a lot and acquired a lot of the last couple of years and there needed to be a rationalization of that portfolio. That's spoken in frankly, human language. I think we overcomplicated some of our marketing and our representation of the portfolio over the last few years, as we sorted through acquisitions, which happens. Even the companies need to live in it and roll around in it a little while to really do this well and get customer feedback on how it's going and get industry feedback on how it's going and how it's landing. Susan Vitale (14m 25s): And so I'm proud of the fact that we said some of this is working and some isn't. Let's do it right, moving forward. Let's use descriptive language on the portfolio. We don't need to have so many means to market that we over-complicate things and require a glossary in it, you know, for people to get it. So a lot of it was around rationalization of the portfolio and simplification, both for internal and external audiences. Another big piece to this, and there were two more, one is really being clear that we see AI as this underpinning across the portfolio. It's not just a product that you buy and you check the box. Susan Vitale (15m 6s): I think as both of you, well know we, we acquired opening.io not too long ago and, and you know, Andrea and team, and they're just super smart and fun. Just awesome. So home-based group and that layered on top of some of the other AI work we've been doing internally, some of which was patent pending. So we had a lot of energy in here already and opening helped give a lot more fuel to that fire, but it was important for us to say, this needs to be clear. We need to be clear that AI has sort of this engine underneath all of these products, it's not just one product. And the third and final sort of catalyst to this was our interest in better representing the work that iCIMS does and can do for our customers around mobility. Susan Vitale (15m 48s): We've been talking about it for years. And in fact, I remember early days, some of the work we were doing for some very big brands around their mobility programs, but we needed to show some additional energy behind it where, you know, the data shows there just aren't enough, necessarily people outside of company's four walls, virtual or otherwise to fill all of these roles and employees leave companies because of perceived limited advancement. And so we wanted to really put a stake in the ground and say, it's not just about a transactional hire it's about that spark that comes when you have the right people in the right teams. And some of that includes advancing people's career into new roles, gigs and prod projects. It's not just about an internal career site that you've moved from a marketing coordinator to a marketing manager as an example. Susan Vitale (16m 33s): There are new ways of thinking about work and jobs that we need to power through some mobility technology. And so those are, those are just a couple of reasons. Joel (16m 40s): So Susan, knowing that you listened to our show religiously, I know that ... Susan Vitale (16m 45s): It's incredibly calming. It's, it's like a meditative experience, really. Joel (16m 49s): I know. And as much as I want to ask you about the CareerBuilder outage and how many of their ATS clients are calling you guys up. I will refrain from that. Instead, I'm going to ask about other big news in the industry this past week, you guys integrated, did something partnered with this little company called Microsoft. So lay it out in your terms exactly what's going on and why it benefits everybody. Susan Vitale (17m 15s): Thanks. And, yeah, thanks for covering that briefly on your show. I talked to Mike Wilczak, by the way, he feels like you're not giving him enough love. Chad (17m 23s): Wait a minute somebody's jealous over there! Somebody's jealous. Susan Vitale (17m 31s): I talked to Mike about it. And I had a lot of fun with him on that one. So no, he's, he's done a phenomenal, phenomenal job for our company, as it relates to MNA strategic partnerships, strategic planning and where we're going as a brand. And as you might recall, when Mike joined, that was really the star of, of opening up his partner ecosystem and doing a lot more with the community around us versus just our own product. So as much as I joke being from Jersey, and I like to poke fun at Mike, we are incredibly appreciative and I love the guy. As it relates to the news you were, you were specifically asking about, we did announce, we were really excited, we got an, a top HR Product Of The Year award from the HR tech conference for our work with Microsoft specifically, we're doing some really cool things with the Microsoft teams technology. Susan Vitale (18m 25s): And I, I think both of, you know, having been in this industry long enough, even the best recruiting platform and talent technology with the best user experience and the coolest slickest analytics, et cetera, people don't always want to live in, particularly as you think about hiring managers and those who might not be, say recruiting all day. So the work with Teams allows a lot of the, the day-to-day recruiting work to really live in the applications that people live in every day. And, and Teams obviously being a big one, particularly nowadays is everybody is remote. So we'll be able to better integrate some of that through Teams specifically, as we think about how to automate interview scheduling, how to queue up interview feedback forms and send interview feedback directly through Teams, literally real time as somebody who's going through this video interview. Susan Vitale (19m 18s): Better self scheduling capabilities as well, and then just better collaboration as we think about forms, et cetera, how do we have less clicks, less friction, less applications to have to push data to and through and have that live within Teams. So we'll, we'll be announcing more of that and showing more of it at Inspire in November. But for now, we're just so excited to share that it's coming and that it's been recognized by the HR tech conference as an awesome new tech. Joel (19m 46s): Interesting. So, so Chad and I like to talk about the current pandemic and the state of the world is sort of an accelerant to things happening really fast. And instead of months or years, these things are happening much faster. And I'm just curious as someone who's been doing this for a long time, what does an ATS look like 10 years from now? Susan Vitale (20m 6s): Well, I couldn't agree more first that I see this pandemic among many, many other things as being an accelerant to a lot of the conversations and the work and the technology advancements, et cetera, that companies have been discussing for a very long time. And when we think about where we're going and therefore where we believe the industry is going, I see this pandemic is accelerating conversations about digital transformation and the future of work. And you can kind of roll your eyes and say, yep, everyone's been talking about that. And that's kind of the point is that we've all been talking about it, maybe taking some steps forward, but now we're taking leaps forward because we have to, not because we think it's something that will look good on a resume. Susan Vitale (20m 47s): And when we think about what this looks like in the future, I don't, I don't think of it as just an applicant tracking system. To me, it doesn't really matter what we label it, that it's the backbone technologies that you need to attract awesome talent to connect and engage and communicate with them, to hire them effectively and to advance them. And I see this as more of a continuum or a loop than maybe a straight funnel or a line. And as we think about that, it's about how do we have the right balance of AI and people. Obviously, AI is becoming a really big, important part of how everybody does their jobs. And as we think about staffing, but there also human elements that are still only from humans, right? Susan Vitale (21m 30s): Creativity, imagination, things like that. So how do we balance that better? And how does technology tap into the best parts of us and automate the rest? How do we think about gig work contingent and evolving marketplace of talent? How do we think about project-based work, et cetera? So I share all this because in some respects, I think that a lot of consulting organizations really do this well in terms of model, not always in terms of tech, but they think of people as a lot more fluid than hiring them into a transactional role. And it's about people on bench and you want to move them on to really exciting, important work that moves your business forward and grows your business. And to me, that's really a model we can all consider as we think about hiring people, to be on great teams and not just the role they're hired into, but that what that means for the team around them. Susan Vitale (22m 19s): And if they're going to, you know, move that team forward as well, whether on a specific project or for a part-time role or a full-time role and what their overall trajectory looks like, and their path looks like within your, within your business. Chad (22m 33s): So, Susan, I want you to put your, your big brand marketing hat on for a second. We're seeing organizations focus heavily on standing for something they believe in. Emboldening behind a purpose, which goes further than industry, for example, Oreos just dropped a short film, which supports LGBTQ rights. Joel, and I love the Audi commercial with the father and the daughter that supports gender equality. Joel (22m 59s): Don't make me cry, don't make me try. Chad (23m 1s): I'll try not. And Smart Recruiters has just dropped a manifesto of sorts on how to build an anti-racist organization. What do you think about these types of innovations or these, these initiatives in our space? Are they important? Do you see iCIMS doing some things like this? What are your thoughts? Susan Vitale (23m 21s): They are absolutely important. I think, when we were going through this brand exercise, we had a lot of conversations around bringing humans and humanity back to it. And frankly, for a while, I think when we did a competitive audit, a lot of the companies in our space were really big at showing screenshots and hands screenshots and hands. But you never really saw people, and it wasn't about how they were working or the impact they had on the businesses that they came into. So it was really important for us to not necessarily over-rotating, and get super fluffy on this and not really have the substance behind it. But when we thought about our, why we said bringing the right talent together with the right teams can transform business and the world, and it's not to go so far, that again, we don't say, well, we're a software company and we provide great service, et cetera, but we have to bring it up a level, to re inspire people about why we do what we do and the impact we can all have if we get it right. Susan Vitale (24m 25s): So I think it's critically important. At Inspire this year as a little bit of a nod to that, we're planning on sharing a bit more about a pledge that, that we're taking as well as we're encouraging our community to take. So we've got thousands and thousands of customers. We've got 10,000 plus talent innovators in this customer community of ours. When we think about the partner network, et cetera, I mean, we can really shape what the workforce looks like moving forward. And so it's important for us to take that seriously, and see it as a responsibility and not as a, a social responsibility checkbox that we relegate to one individual in a junior role. Susan Vitale (25m 7s): It has to be part of the brand. So we'll share more about it in just a couple of weeks. Joel (25m 11s): All right, Susan, I want to go back to the future and let you out on this one. In your 15, some years in this industry, what's been one thing that's really surprised you or something that you said, I didn't see that one coming. Susan Vitale (25m 24s): There are probably like 11 snarky answers I can give to that, but Chad (25m 27s): that's what I'd like. Give me that. I didn't see two idiots doing a podcast that anybody would listen to. Joel (25m 37s): Or me being a guest on that show, Good Lord. Susan Vitale (25m 43s): I think, sometimes and I'm sure you guys can probably relate. I can't believe we're still having the same conversations in some of these respects that we were having 15 years ago. I would hope as part of the silver lining of the hot mess that we are all in right now is that we stop talking about it. And we start getting on the train and doing it in terms of some of the transformation that needs to happen because you know, our new tagline of talent, power, transformation, isn't just a tagline, it's real. That tech alone, isn't going to do this stuff, but the companies and people need to get on board and move this stuff forward. So, you know, the fact that people are still using really crappy technology to do really important things. Susan Vitale (26m 26s): I mean, probably 10 years ago, we talked about it as the elephant in the room, that executives will talk about talent being critically important to their organizations and then use horrible technology to get it done. And then point fingers at recruiting to say, why you suck? That's ridiculous. I can't believe we're still having diversity and inclusion conversations to the basic level that we are. The conversation should always exist. We should always be pushing everybody forward, but there are some basic things that people are acting our way, acting like they're way harder than they really are. And that to me is really disheartening. Chad (27m 1s): Exactly. Well, Susan Vitale, everybody, Susan, if someone wants to tap into your extensive golden girls trivia knowledge, or maybe they might just want you to fill in for an online bridge or penuckle tournament, how can they connect with you? Susan Vitale (27m 23s): Well, you can hit me on Twitter or LinkedIn as probably both are pretty easy. It's Susan_Vitale on Twitter. And you can just look, look me up on LinkedIn as well, just by this Susan Vitale name and yeah, I'll you geek out to Golden Girls all day, every day. And as a fun fact is that I once won a Golden Girls trivia at Golden Girls drag on a Valentine's weekend, nothing says romance quite like that. So, so there you go. Chad (27m 55s): Well that's one lucky guy. Joel (27m 57s): I got nothing! I got nothing! Susan, we love you. Chad (28m 2s): Love ya back. Joel (28m 3s): We out. Chad (28m 4s): And we out. Susan Vitale (28m 5s): We out. OUTRO (28m 6s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

It was just a joke to some when it burst onto the recruitment landscape years ago, but Tengai, the robot recruiter born in Sweden is still here, suckers. And now it speaks English, so the boys thought it was worth a chat about what's going on with the company, the tech, and that craziness that is Swedes eating rotten fish. Yuck! Virus-free, fluent in English and a little less creep than last year, Tengai isn't going anywhere. They don't care about your shade. Sorta like Abba's Greatest Hits. This episode supported and powered Sovren, the AI, parsing, and matching tech so human you'll want to take it to dinner. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Sovren (1s): Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now based on that technology come Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second receive match results that provide candidate scored by fit to job. And just as importantly, the jumps fit to the candidate make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's sovren.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren Software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Tengai (42s): This is the unbiased interview robot, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I love these guys. INTRO (52s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (1m 11s): Oh shit. It's Monday. And we're talking robots. Bri is back in the house. Everybody, you know, you love them. This is Joel Cheeseman your co-host for the Chad and Cheese podcast joined as always by my faithful sidekick Chad Sowash. Chad, how are ya? Chad (1m 28s): This is robot day, man! I can't wait! Joel (1m 30s): Robot day. Yeah. Let's let's bring in the duo, straight out of Sweden. Sinisa head of product, Elin, CEO of a Tengai Unbiased. Guys, how you doing? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (1m 44s): It's been awhile. It's been awhile. Yeah, we're doing good, given that 2020 is a really crappy year though, global wise and pandemic wise. But otherwise I think that we're quite good. What do you think Sinisa? Sinisa Strbac (1m 57s): Definitely. Definitely. It's going to be fun to talk about Tengai today! Joel (2m 0s): He's had too many cups of coffee I believe. Chad (2m 6s): Since we're in 2020 and we can't get out and people can't really do the see, feel touch of the recruiting robot. How, how much harder has it been to be able to get people interested and also adopting because before, I mean, once I got in front of the Tengai and started to interact, it was like an automatic sell. Right. But it's harder to do that now. So what's it like today? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (2m 33s): It's challenging for everyone, that's not being able to meet face to face. So we're adjusting as, as, as part of, as part of this situation. Of course. So we're doing a lot of demos online or doing a lot of video meetings and things like that. But I think the, the interest in Tengais is still quite big and we're trying to adjust to them going Tengai over video on the brighter side, I mean, isn't able to get the virus, which is quite good. So using that situation is, might be quite beneficial though. Chad (3m 7s): Agreed. So is that, is that like one of the big selling points now you still have these, these essential workers that have to come in, they have to interview, but you want to mitigate risk. Tengai will help you mitigate risk and be unbiased during the interview. Is that part of the pitch now? I mean, because this, it had to have changed. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (3m 27s): Yeah. We're actually, we actually have that as a pitch moving sort of the, the early stage of the pandemic. So we used Tengai together with a municipality in Sweden for, for that specific purpose where they needed to recruit people to their health care. And we use Tengai for that purpose and knowing that we could minimize the risk of contamination during that interview.So yeah! Might be a selling point. Joel (3m 55s): So you we're here today primarily because we have something that you guys have been working on for a long time. Obviously you're very excited about it. Our listeners who have been following you for the past few years have been waiting for this English speaking Tengai. Chad (4m 12s): Today's the day kids! Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (4m 15s): Finally! Joel (4m 16s): Should talk about the engineering challenge around that. Cause I think we probably don't have a, an appreciation for probably how challenging it was. You know, we have UK English, we have American English, Australian English, we have different sort of angles and context to all of that stuff. So talk about the unveiling and then the engineering challenge challenges behind it. Chad (4m 38s): I want to know if you have Mississippi English, because that's a feature. Joel (4m 44s): Hillbilly Tengai coming in 2022! Sinisa Strbac (4m 48s): We decided early for American English. Cause actually what we think or that you can maybe feel, feel in that UK is more In US is, is not as interesting for Americans as American in is in Britain. So we decided to go for American English and then it was mostly about translating and making it contextualizing questions doc, so that they both sound right and have the, keep the core of the questions, as in Swedish, as in English. So we have been working with a couple of translators, both that are both actually British/American. Sinisa Strbac (5m 29s): We have also Australian/English as well. So we were like working cause we, we did like Swinglish first, you know, Swedes translated to English and then we learned, we're like, well, this is, this sounds good. Well, Americans and British listened to it. And we're like, okay, this is, this is not how we, how we talk and how we pronounce stuff. So, so they did a, they have done a lot of, a lot of work on it. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (5m 60s): Yeah. And I think that not only that, it's also a question of, of the back channels, like how we do the, how we do the, uhhuh, eh hmmm, the cultural things that we have in a dialogue, which is different from, from the Swedish way of doing it, and into UK, us and all of the world actually. We do a lot of different things, cultural wise, you know, dialogue that we needed to find a solution for it basically so that candidate can feel safe and secure during their interview. Sinisa Strbac (6m 30s): Swedish, Swedish people, When, when w when you were talking, the one that's listening is always like, mm, mm, mm. And we did, they did actually have that in the first English immersion. And most of them that are not, that are native English. We're like, why is it doing that? Why is it important? Chad (6m 48s): Can you tell your robot to shut up? I'm trying to answer a question. Sinisa Strbac (6m 52s): So, that's gone in English. Joel (6m 54s): So how many engineers did it take to build this thing and how many hours? Sinisa Strbac (6m 58s): Oh! Engineers. I mean, we had like a couple of translators and then what can four to five months translating and testing, coding, retesting. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (7m 12s): Then the main part of product development is testing to understand, okay. Does this actually work in, in an actual interview? How does, how does the candidate respond? How, how do the candidate interact with the robot? Joel (7m 27s): How do you guys do that? Do you bring in random people to do it? Do you use internal Sinisa Strbac (7m 32s): First internal then, then definitely PR pretty soon after we do, we bring in external candidates. Joel (7m 39s): Okay. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (7m 40s): As it is when, when most technology, the more data the better. So the more interview data that we can can get in order to understand if, if it's a good or a bad interview, basically the better. Yeah. Chad (7m 52s): Did you have access to Americans? Are in there in Sweden that you kind of plucked out and put in a room with Tengai? Is that what you did? Sinisa Strbac (8m 0s): Yeah. Yeah. Joel (8m 1s): So you have the shiny new toy. Talk about the rollout. Is it like European and English speaking companies? Is it worldwide, like, talk about how you guys are targeting and enrolling this thing out? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (8m 12s): In the beginning, we had the plan was to launch it in, in US during beginning of 20 20, and 2021. But given, given the situation, the global situation and the possibility of moving and be physically there, it's the challenge, of course. So the strategy now is to work with Swedish multinational brands that has English as their, one of their needs for expanding this product in their organization. So that's the first, first sort of roll out that we're doing. And it's also been a demand for our clients in Sweden to have the English version as well. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (8m 52s): And in parallel with that, we do have partnership program that we started out in during the spring, just before the summer. Which is, it started out with sort of the corporation together with CNG, who's the partner company in Sweden that we're working with. So they have put all their salesforce within this rollout in Sweden, and they have actually been waiting for this new release that was released 1st of September with an updated software with the English scale and with an updated sort of interview with updated interview concepts. So that is also one part of the role as strategy to go with partnerships. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (9m 33s): So we do have a current sort of dialogues with companies in US and UK, primarily Chad (9m 40s): So how do you target partners, and then also brands? Because it's funny, we've talked about Ikea because obviously they are in Sweden, but they also have a huge footprint here in the US as well, and, you know, I would assume across all over the world, how do you target those brands? And are you looking for partners to do that? Are you guys doing that or is it a combination? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (10m 3s): I think it's a combination looking at the targets in, in Sweden, we've been, we've been targeting companies that has really high demands on sustainability, on diversity and inclusion. And the companies that actually want to do the next step of their diversity inclusion efforts, so we've been working quite closely with them. Chad (10m 26s): What about you talk about diversity and inclusion, which is obviously big over here in the States. You've, you've noticed that there's some huge movements, which have been long awaited. Unfortunately they had to be sparked off with, with, with some very, very bad incidents. When that happened, it just seemed like it seemed like diversity, equity and inclusion really rose to the top and being unbiased is incredibly important, but there are a ton of people that are out there that are haters and don't believe that any algorithm can be unbiased because to be quite Frank, most algorithms are programmed by white dudes. Chad (11m 11s): Right? So what's your, I know there's a science behind it. Can you talk us through, help us understand how this technology, whether it's physical or just the algorithm is not biased? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (11m 23s): We've been doing this for quite many years in Sweden, and we've been doing unbiased recruitment in a manual way for 15 years. And what we have sort of explored, during those years is that a process needs to be data collection, and we need to collect the, the right amounts and the right data in order to make better hiring decisions. So looking at the interview, which, which is Tengai's topic, we need to look at what the interview that we could collect with data that makes it unbiased. And it needs to be structured. It needs to be anonymous. It needs to be focused on the things that can be related to behavioral science. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (12m 9s): So those are the things that we have been focusing on extracting the right amount of data from that. So we don't use, for example, we don't use data such as age or gender or ethnicity or race or whatever. We only use the behavioral science data that doesn't have a discriminatory round. And from that, we've actually done a rule-based situation pretty much as used in personality tests. We know that there's, there's a given fact when it comes to performance in different areas in personality. So we've actually just put those things together with the parts from the personality tests and the parts from the behavioral science and into what we call an interview hybrid. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (12m 55s): So we're combining those two things. And perhaps initially you can explain how the personality indicator and the behavior indicator actually works. Sinisa Strbac (13m 4s): The TPI is like overall name and TPI is Tengai Performance Indicator. And that's both like the framework, but also the score that every candidate gets at the end of the interview and the TPI, is done a combined, is it actually a combination of two different scores, as Elin mentioned, it's personality indicator. And then you have the behavior indicator, personality indicator is statements that the robot asks a candidate and that candidate needs to either agree or disagree, but either by saying yes or no, or, or giving like longer answer that interprets into either positive or negative. Sinisa Strbac (13m 47s): And this is connected to studies about big five and general work performance. So it's not, it's not like a whole big five, but part of big five that is being measured by this first like personality indicator. And that score is actually out dramatic in this new version. So right after the candidates complete the interview, the score is already in the software. So recruiter need and knows already that, okay, this candidate is good to go move forward or not. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (14m 20s): Yeah. Th that's also the part that that's been validated that you announced earlier this year. Yeah. Chad (14m 26s): Well, here's a quick question around validation. And also there's a huge population of individuals out there who don't act and or respond the same way that, you know, Bob does. And those are individuals with disabilities. Did you guys do advanced testing to ensure that every different segment was represented in testing to ensure that there truly wasn't any, any bias even in that sector? Sinisa Strbac (14m 53s): Yeah. Well, I mean, we did, we had done some tests and as far as we know, 98% of the answers that Tengai has interpreted has have been right. I mean, the candidate has, has talked, Tengai interpret this was it, this was positive negative, and has like 98% Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (15m 13s): When it comes to people with disabilities is the, for example, we did a lot of testing on people with autism, had a little difficulties in normal human human interviews, since they had problems, keeping eye contact, et cetera, and they needed more time to respond, et cetera. And that worked really, really well with this type of technology. So they felt more positive after the robot interview than they felt after a human to human interview, simply because the robots didn't fill in gaps or just waited for, for the candidate to actually give their view of things. So from that perspective, that was really, really good. Joel (15m 52s): I'm going to address the elephant in the room, real quickly. You guys are, I'm going to say four years old at this point, somewhere around there. And I would, I was one of the first that sort of reported on you guys. And I would say the, the comments I generally got was like, this is a PR stunt. This is a joke. These guys will be dead in six months and those comments still continue today. But here we are, four years later, you guys have launched an English for anyone who thinks, you know, this is still a joke. This is just this isn't going to happen. Robot recruiting is not going to be a thing. What would you tell those folks? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (16m 28s): Well, I think that, you know, most people that are very negative towards us and think that it's a gimmick or whatever, they haven't actually met Tengai and they have never sat down in a room with Tengai conducting this sort of interview. And we know from experience that people that has been negative in the beginning, sitting down with Tengai, they have a different approach afterwards. This things that they most always tell us, is that, okay, this was not what I expected. This was a really serious interview. It was really hard, but I also felt that I could be sort of evaluated for my skillsets and nothing else. I totally get the purpose. I look at this as more of a data collection tool than anything else than more than a robot, Joel (17m 12s): Are you willing to talk about how many customers you have or is it not even necessarily about that as much as it is, we're still building the product? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (17m 19s): I think that we're still building the product and we're mainly focusing at the moment locally. We do have a few clients in Sweden that we're super happy about. Still within municipalities, a few banks, were having a really good dialogue together with Swedish authorities, et cetera. So, but, but still for us, it's, it's been really important to build a really good product and to, to focus on the science part of it and the, to as so basically when we launched the first product, 1st of September, which is the combination between the automatic and the manual part. Yeah. Sinisa Strbac (17m 55s): Yeah. I didn't tell you about the second, the second part. So just so, just so you know. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (18m 0s): Yeah. Give us the behavior indicators in a chat. Yeah. Sinisa Strbac (18m 3s): Sorry. So, so the first score is automatic and that's based on personality of the candidate related to general work performance. So you get like the whole, the group, the group of candidates, they get interviewed, you have the first score automatic, then you have the second, the second part of it is it's called behavior indicator. And that's like a past behavior questions. Like how do you solve a problem? Given that situation where you did let, what did you learn? Some, some, something similar like that. And that's where Tengai records answer and then presents the answer to the recruiter, like audio files that sends it, the recruiter can score candidates according to a grading system that we have created. Sinisa Strbac (18m 53s): So you have like, the robot does the first scoring where candidates states, that I am like this, this is my personality, I'm good for this role. And then you have the audio scoring that we call it where the candidate also gets to describe it's competence. And that's like, where, what we are thinking that magic happens when you have like, okay, candidates says he, or she is like this. And they can also describe when you have these two, like, okay, probably it's a good, it's a good candidate to move forward with. Joel (19m 26s): And you talked about, sorry, you talked about sort of the, what I'm S I'm assuming what employers think when they meet Tengai and go through the process. What has been the reaction with job seekers as you guys roll this out? And is it what you expected or is it different than what you anticipate? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (19m 44s): It's both what we expected and some new things has come up along the way, but what we mostly get when the, sort of the, when the shock with the technology sort of lands throughout the interview, because that's basically what happens. The first thing, when a candidate hadn't met a robot before, and they're starting to get sort of intrigued and then feels like, okay, this is amazing, et cetera. But I think that when that has sort of, sort of landed a bit, they feel like, okay, now I have started my interview and I'm talking to this white piece of plastic, but all of a sudden they start to forget that it's actually a robot that, that they're talking to. And that is what we felt as well when we started to work with this product and this platform, because it's so interactive and it behaves just like a human and it's natural for us to actually feel that it's human communication that we're sort of doing. Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (20m 37s): So, even though we can see it's a white piece of plastic and it's that it's a robots, the brain sort of interpreted the communication as human. So the brain tells us that it's a human that we're talking to. So that's why sort of creates this strange feeling for people. Okay. I can see it's a robot, but I felt that it was, I sort of forgot that it was a robot I was talking to. And that's natural, I think. Chad (21m 3s): To say that I was definitely one of those haters at first, before we went to Portugal and actually met Tengai, I thought, this is, this, can't be real. The interaction can't be there. And it was, and you said something earlier was eye contact. Tengai makes eye contact, makes those subtle gestures. And it was really interesting just to engage. But that being said, knowing Tengai can make that eye contact and is looking for that eye contact. We're hearing some, some pretty bad legislation coming out for facial recognition. Does Tengai do facial recognition? And if not, will she moving foward? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (21m 44s): She will not use facial recognition. We do use face tracking, which yeah. So, and it's the purpose of that is basically to make sure that the robot can follow the face that it's tracking. So it's more of an interactive experience for the candidate. There's also quite many things coming up, but when it comes to face tracking such as smile detection, et cetera, as Sinsia as you can tell, tell us more about that, perhaps, but that's, we will never, and we don't have that in our, in our pipeline to use facial recognition in terms of connecting that to different behaviors. Applause (22m 26s): Clapping. Joel (22m 27s): Well guys, as always, it's been a pleasure for our listeners who don't know about Tengai. Where do you send them? Elin Öberg Mårtenzon (22m 36s): To tengai-unbiased.com. Joel (22m 38s): You better spell it for people. Yeah. Chad (22m 42s): Tengai see I even screwed it up. Tengai-unbiased.com guys. Thanks a lot. And Chad We Out. We out Joel (22m 51s): How do you say we out in Swedish? Sinisa Strbac (22m 53s): Vi ut. Chad (22m 55s): We out. OUTRO (22m 56s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

The business of bringing old resumes in your ATS back to life was pretty hot a few years ago. The trend, however, has faded a bit in light of all the other shiny things out there, but Pearl is hoping to bring sexy back. Do they have what it takes, or will they be another victim of the Firing Squad. Gotta listen to find out, as the boys put founder and CEO Tim Connors to the test. Firing Squad powered by the programmatic experts at Pandologic. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Chad (0s): Damn programmatic is hot! Joel (2s): Yeah, it is hot Dude, pass me a cold PBR. Would ya? Chad (7s): Okay. Number one, I wasn't talking about the temperature and number two PBR is a shitty beer time to upgrade to an IPA. Joel (16s): Okay. My bad. Guessing you were talking about Programmatic Job advertising being hot. Yeah. That shit is everywhere and all the kids are doing. Chad (25s): I know man, but there's only one company that's been doing it since 2007. Joel (30s): Damn 2007. Hey man, what wife were you on? In 2007? I was on number one. Chad (37s): Focus, dude. I'm talking about pandoIQ from our friends at PandoLogic. PandoIQs, Programmatic recruitment advertising platform helps employers source talent faster and more efficiently than ever thanks to predictive algorithms, machine learning and AI. Joel (58s): Buzzword, overdose alert. Yeah. Pando was on the cutting edge of Programmatic, while being deeply rooted in the recruitment industry. pandoIQ provides an end to end Programmatic job advertising platform that delivers a significant increase in job ad performance without any waste spending to maximize the ROI on your recruitment spend. And their AI enabled algorithms use over 48 job attributes and more than 200 billion historical job performance data points to predict the optimal job advertising campaign. The machine does all that shit. That shit sounds expensive! Chad (1m 38s): Think again Cheesman. PandoIQ provides an end to end job advertising solution that delivers a significant increase in job ad performance without any wasteful spending. Joel (1m 50s): Sold! How do I get started? Chad (1m 54s): Go to Pandologic.com to request a demo and tell him Chad and Cheese sent you. Joel (1m 56s): Ohh... They have a chat bot too, that we can talk to. Chad (2m 0s): Oh, kill me now. Firing Squad INTRO (2m 3s): Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad! CHAD SOWASH & JOEL CHEESEMAN are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they got what it takes to make it out alive? Dig a fox hole and duck for cover kids the Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel (2m 24s): Oh, shit, this election has gotten me all agitated. This is a bad time to be on Firing Squad. But anyway, here we are everybody. This is Joel Cheesman of the Chad and Cheese podcast joined as always by Chad Sowash. And this is firing squad, Chad, what's up? Chad (2m 40s): It's another day in. I'd like to say paradise. If I wasn't in the fucking COVID craziness that we're in right now. Not. Yeah. Yeah. And just so that everybody knows wear a fucking mask. Okay? Joel (2m 54s): Good advice. Good advice. And with that said Tim Connors, founder, Pearl, Tim, how are you? Welcome. Tim Connors (3m 3s): Hey, Hey, what's up guys? Hey! Chad (3m 6s): Let's get this out real quick. Pearl, try parole. Try parole.io. I mean, what's the, what's the brand here, Joel (3m 16s): Quick Q and A, Q&A. No pitch for you. We're just going right. Chad (3m 22s): Trying to find information on you for Pearl was a bitch, just so that, you know, because that's, that's probably the most used word on the fucking internet for God's sake. So, so what is it? Give me the brand real quick and give me a quick Twitter intro of yourself. Tim Connors (3m 41s): Yeah, sure. So we'll probably decide to invest in a different URL at some point, but it's very difficult to get something simple in 2020. So I there's tons. There's actually tons of like websites. You probably don't even realize, start with, go or try or what or high or something. And you just start to realize anyway. Joel (4m 3s): Those are usually dot cons at least was, was trypearl.com taken? Tim Connors (4m 12s): Yes, yes. Yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there. My last business, I eventually invested $750 to get gradstreet.com. But for the first year it was something really crappy. And that was totally fine. You got to work your up. Which is I guess, a good segue into my Twitter intro. I, this is my third business. I've been doing it since I was in college and have been focused on the recruiting world for the past eight months to a year. Just wanted to see things shaken up. There's there's a lot going on in the recruiting world from a business perspective, but there's also so many issues and it's such an infinitely complex space. So there's a lot to do still. Tim Connors (4m 54s): And we're excited to ... Joel (4m 55s): So Grad Street real quick, you mentioned that. What was that? Tim Connors (4m 57s): That was, that was one of my first businesses as an e-commerce play. I was selling graduation caps and gowns at first to my fellow students at UCLA because it was just like so overpriced at the bookstore. And then the next year it was, you know, 10 schools and the next year it was 20 schools and it was kind of my main bread and butter, for the first few years out of school. I just got tired of it to be honest, but it made like a hundred thousand dollars in sales. Joel (5m 31s): There you go. All right, well, this is your wake-up call. You're now in employment. So Chad, tell him what he's won. Chad (5m 38s): Well, Tim today you will have two minutes to pitch Pearl, Try Pearl, Pearl, whatever you want to call it. At the end of two minutes, you will hear the bell then Joel and I will hit you with rapid fire Q and A. If your answers start rambling or you get boring, Joel's gonna hit you with crickets and that's your signal to move along. At the end of Q and A, you will receive one of three grades. Number one, a big applause. That's right. It's time to start snapping necks and cashing checks, big guy. Golf clap it was pretty weak,you're probably going to have to strengthen some shit up, but not too bad. Chad (6m 20s): We're going to give you and last but not least, Oh damn the firing squad. This is not what you want, kiddo. I just want to let you know, my friends back to Grad Street. Tim Connors (6m 35s): No, please. Anything but that! Chad (6m 38s): All right. That was that. Those are the rules. That's Firing Squad. Any questions? Tim Connors (6m 43s): Let's do it. Joel (6m 45s): Are you ready? Tim Connors (6m 46s): Yes. Joel (6m 47s): In three, two ... Bell (6m 49s): Ding, ding, ding. Tim Connors (6m 50s): So over the past a year, I spent over 150 hours talking on the phone to recruiting leaders at companies, mostly 200 to 2000 people. And this is what I learned. These companies are spending a ton of time and energy collecting applications from candidates who are also spending a lot of time and energy filling out those applications. Everyone knows the way it goes, 99 or a hundred people apply, one person gets the job. 99 people fall into a black pit, never to be seen again by the recruiting team. So this is, you know, despite being told, Hey, we'll keep you in mind for future roles. It's just simply not true. Tim Connors (7m 30s): And it relates to a bad experience for the candidate. And the recruiting team is left to reinvent the wheel going and doing cold outreach again and again. And it's extremely inefficient. And the reason why this is happening based on the customer interviews we've done, is that the companies of the segment that we're focused on their data is either a messy, missing or stale. Or they, the ATS has a, not a robust search so it's really difficult to pull people back up and on top of that, it's not easy to do anything. Once you've found people in your HBS, it doesn't function like a CRM and many might say that it doesn't intend to function like a CRM. Tim Connors (8m 11s): So what Pearl does is it comes in to this segment and it offers an add on to those CR to the ATS like greenhouse lever, those are the most common in this space. And we allow you to, in one click recruiters can see a generated list of candidates that are relevant for any given role. And then there's a drag and drop interface that they can use to engage with those people with an automated outreach campaign that can respect and respond to them based on their response. So it's using some natural language processing and it can even trigger actions back in your ATS. All of this is sinked data in between. So it's making it super, super simple to start leveraging your database as a source of talent. Bell (8m 53s): Ding, ding, ding. Joel (8m 54s): Thank you, Tim. I want to tighten up pitch in the future and we've already gone through the, where can you find out more about Pearl by going to try pearl.go.com.edu.sweats. Tim Connors (9m 8s): You're killing me. Joel (9m 10s): Tim, let's get some of the infrastructure out of the way. Like what's your team look like? Have you raised money? Are you looking to raise money? Just set the stage for us. Tim Connors (9m 22s): So, me and a co-founder we have three other developers. We have been working on this iteration of the product for about eight months. And we have, we started doing more salesy calls just in the last four weeks, honestly, four to eight weeks. And we are now focused on our first integrations with the first few customers. So we'll probably do a pre-seed, round starting by the end of the year, or just focused on getting those first few customers under our belt first. So we're working on logistics with integrations. Joel (10m 1s): So you've essentially been in business since COVID has left the world in a totally different place. Tim Connors (10m 9s): Yeah. Joel (10m 9s): Has, COVID been a positive, a negative, a neutral to the business? I would assume it's a huge hurdle that you weren't expecting and it's been a real challenge, but talk about what the COVID impact on the business and any pivots that you might be looking at as a result. Tim Connors (10m 26s): Yeah, sure. So when things started going haywire in March, we actually were not sure that we were going in this direction. We were initially focused on a talent marketplace for candidates to better discover and apply to opportunities. And we really like the idea there that we had, but we decided that we wanted to given everything that was going on, we decided we wanted to start small on an atomic specific problem that we can solve in a powerful way. Plus if we ended up wanting to build a talent marketplace, we'd need to kind of artificially build up one half of that marketplace anyway. Tim Connors (11m 8s): So we decided to make a temporary pivot to this product, to get started sooner rather than later, instead of building from the outside, we wanted to just start solving problems sooner. And so that was our, that was kind of our pivot for COVID. On top of that, I would just say that I don't want to say it's a good thing, but there is a huge amount of reshuffling that has happened and will continue to hop in the recruiting world. Andreessen Horowitz calls, they call it, it's calling it the great rehiring. It simply put, this just has been so many people put out of work. And so many people are going to have to be put back to work. And I don't think that the recruiting tools of today that are being used are going to cut it. Tim Connors (11m 53s): So to me, I see a calls to arms to get more specific solutions in order. Chad (11m 60s): Okay. So really quick, just, just quickly you got bored at Grad Street was the competition too fierce. Why did you drop it? Tim Connors (12m 9s): No. So the competition, there really isn't any competition. It's actually kind of a duopoly that specific market. Chad (12m 16s): My big question is you had a company. It sounds like it was doing pretty well. Why did you drop it? Tim Connors (12m 23s): Because I, I couldn't, it was just, wasn't making an impact, on the world. Like what I was, I was making like $10, $15 per sale or something. No one had any reason to remember what we were doing. It wasn't like no one gave a crap about what we were doing. And I didn't give a crap about what we're doing either. Chad (12m 43s): Okay. Okay. No, I got it. I got it. It's a purpose. That's a purpose play and I totally get that. Okay. So my next question from the website, quote, our intelligent matching algorithm will identify the most relevant seekers in your ATS for the job and quote, how are you matching garbage against garbage, jobs that are written, that are out there today? Job descriptions are, are garbage for the most part, unstructured resumes are garbage. So what's the process. What are you using? Tell me a little bit about that. Did you build it? Did you rent it? Give me, give me the overview? Tim Connors (13m 21s): Yeah. So we are partnering with a firm to help us with the matching. And we took a look at a lot of different options here. We wanted to be able to access an engine that had millions of data points of training, and that wasn't something that we have access to as a small startup. And so that's the direction that we went in. Now to your point of data, garbage in, garbage out. The first thing that we do with the customers I work with, is we parse the resumes ourselves, is that we pull in data from LinkedIn to get structured data. Because you're right, most of the people that we're talking with have, do not have structured data. Tim Connors (14m 2s): It's actually, it actually, it was very surprising to me that that greenhouse or elaborate didn't have like a native parsing engine, but it is difficult. So that's the first step that we do with everyone. Chad (14m 13s): What makes you different than the rest of the technology providers out there that have been doing this matching piece for a very long time? Tim Connors (14m 25s): So yeah, to discuss them matching, we're generating matches. It's based on several different, its like education and skill and seniority and location and languages. It's pretty sufficient. And given the data that is being structured, it's light years ahead of any, most of the current status quo, the companies that we're talking with. We all companies like ever, if you there's a, in the UI of our app, there's a review state screen, so you can take out people if you feel like they were real fit. And of course it trains the model more over time. But it, it generates people that from, from what we've tested so far are pretty relevant to the job. Tim Connors (15m 12s): And so I would just say that this current status quo is no one's being reached out to, everyone's being ignored. So to bring that to a point where, okay, now I can at least review a manageable amount of people and result in 20 people being reached out to is a massive jump in functionality, your two biggest competitors, okay. Gem, there's also a company called Hiring Solved. Joel (15m 37s): The success of your business is predicated upon integrations into ATSs, which is a good thing. And also sort of a challenging thing, right? So you've mentioned, I think Greenhouse and Lever, I'm going to assume that you are already integrated with them. Are you sort of putting all your eggs in one basket or a couple of baskets? Are you currently developing for a myriad of ATSes? I guess talk about that since it it's pretty much the, the life of your business is going to be these partnerships and integrations. Tim Connors (16m 10s): Definitely. So I'm with the ATS integrations, we're putting ourselves, we're putting our eggs in a handful of baskets that provide a good API. Of course, if the API is offered, but it's rudimentary, our UI might have to change for that specific customer, but Lever, Greenhouse, Workday, Smart Recruiters, they're offering APIs that, that we can work with and that will provide us everything we need. We don't, we're not doing direct partnerships with the ATS vendors, if that's what you're asking, but they all allow their customers to do third-party integrations. And that's where we're headed. Joel (16m 49s): You integrated currently with those four Smart Recruiters Workday, iCIMS or, I mean, not iCIMS but Lever and Greenhouse. Tim Connors (16m 57s): No, we're currently working through an integration on a Greenhouse customer right now. Joel (17m 1s): Okay. So currently you're not integrated with any of them? Tim Connors (17m 5s): Yes. And the goal is to be integrated with a specific customer. Right. Joel (17m 9s): Okay. So Greenhouse will be number one. Tim Connors (17m 11s): Yeah. Most likely. Joel (17m 13s): Okay. So obviously that's going, going badly, I would think that's not going as quickly as you thought, because you've been around for eight months? Tim Connors (17m 20s): No, it's not like we've been, it's not like we came out the gate with a product ready to sell eight months ago. So yeah, I mean, we've just, like I said earlier, it's been like four weeks since we started shopping around our current solution. And even then I wasn't even sure if we were ready to meet the market where it was, but we're doing a free trial where we're very ready and willing to adopt our product and its UI to what companies need. And so I think there's a lot of companies, that understandably, jumped at that opportunity to help craft something that they specifically need. And company has just a ton of TA leaders are sitting out there feeling really frustrated that they're sitting on this gold mine of value without any way to use it. Tim Connors (18m 2s): So it's a very welcome to the people that we're talking with. Joel (18m 6s): Understood. So a business that we've talked about for years, startups like Crowded, for example, came in, had sort of, kind of imploded. I doubt they're the best example, but the whole idea of sort of reinvigorating the database, bringing people back from the dead, seems to be a failed, a failed business. I'm not sure why we've talked to people that think, well, you know, if I applied a year ago, you know, I've got new skills. I don't care. I've moved to another city. Like it's fairly, it's almost a spam game where you, you know, you blast a thousand people and hopefully one or two of them, you know, are still kind of interested. Is that, is that what you see in the business model? Am I getting, am I getting it wrong? Joel (18m 46s): Did they do something not right that you're going to get right. Talk about that. Tim Connors (18m 53s): Yeah. So there's a few key things here. The first thing is this specific market segment going after companies that are specifically around 500 to a couple thousand that are in high growth mode. Those are going to be the companies that are most likely to experience this. And in those cases it does it, they're not even really concerned about people a year ago. Of course, we're dishing those people up just as well. But a lot of these companies have a lot of hiring volume that someone three months ago, it could be a fantastic fit and they'll probably just be lost in the haystack, given their current hiring volume and the capabilities of the recruiting teams, that companies that are growing really fast. Tim Connors (19m 35s): So, so that's one thing is making sure that you're focused on the right segment, but another big, big, big thing is recognizing that recruiters don't want to use another tool. There's a lot of tool fatigue going on among the people that that we've spoken with. And that's why we stay out of the way. We recognize that we have to solve this problem from a technical perspective, but also from a people and processes perspective and that I feel is so often ignored by other people that have tried this approach. That's why we generate a finite list of results that you can see. There's we don't give you a search bar. You can't refresh and get more people. It's just five, ten minutes, maybe max process, that you do at the start of every rack and all of that data syncs Mac, all of the outreach that occurs sinks back to the ATS. Tim Connors (20m 22s): It's not a separate pool for you to go and spend endless amounts of time there. And so we're not causing people to make that decision and choose us over LinkedIn or something. And I think that that's been really key. Chad (20m 35s): So are you confident? The tech is not going to go all Amazon and start discrediting women and people of color. You know, they had to shut down their matching algorithm. Are you confident yours isn't going to do this? Tim Connors (20m 50s): I'm confident that ours will perform with less bias than existing humans. Chad (20m 57s): Okay. So that doesn't answer the question, because bias is bias, right? How are you going to ensure that your tech is not biased? Or how does the company do it? Tim Connors (21m 9s): Yeah, sure. So we have, we do check, obviously run a series of tests ourselves periodically against different functions, especially when we're bringing on a new customer, knowing what kind of roles they're looking for and doing tons of internal tests is one way to continue keeping a pulse on that. We also recognize like, you know, I have a background in AI, so does my co-founder this I can announce to the world right now, AI in recruiting will not have 0% bias. It just won't. That's not a sexy thing to say in a pitch, but it's based on it's it's whenever you have a significant amount of data, unless it's completely fabricated and detached from the real world, it's going to be seated with real world use cases. Tim Connors (21m 56s): So that's kind of just the way that it is. So from there on out it's well, how much better is this than the existing structure? And we need to be realistic about what the current status quo is. I disagree with you that it is trivial to be less biased than existing recruiting teams, even teams that are trying very, very hard, have to spend a lot of money doing training and using tools to reduce bias. It's actually not a trivial thing at all. And so that's, these are all things to keep track of is how, how much better are we than the current status quo. And that's also why we give all of the teams, you know, access to some insight into why was this person chosen? And of course this is review screen that I already mentioned how you can take people out and put people in cause we don't expect you to just trust it 100% percent. Chad (22m 44s): Right. Well, I think it's interesting though, that most AI and ML fans don't talk about auditing. Auditing is always the answer. And also it's also the short answer, unless you have this black box that nobody can see into and then you're going to have issues. Tim Connors (23m 2s): Totally. Chad (23m 2s): Joel. Joel (23m 2s): Yeah. I'm curious about the communication side of the product. It looks like email is the primary source of communicating, with the job seekers in your database. Is there any plan or, or am I not saying maybe SMS is part of it, WhatsApp, things that other things that people communicate with, is that going to be part of the product? Is it a current part of the product or maybe it never will be? Tim Connors (23m 26s): Yeah, actually SMS is currently part of the product as it functions. I don't think it's on our website or anything, but we came out the gate as a SMS first recruiting play. We kind of ended up shifting with this latest pivot and kind of playing it a little bit safer with it, with the email outreach, but we do offer SMS as well. And we're looking to add that to that flow builder that you might see on our site. Joel (23m 54s): Okay. Chad (23m 55s): Excellent. So talk about price. What's this gonna cost me? Tim Connors (24m 5s): Great question Joel (24m 6s): We're still a startup, we don't talk about price. Tim Connors (24m 9s): Yeah, yeah. Right. We're still kind of deciding with people at first people that we're working with, what the value is that we're bringing, we expect it to be sort of the framework that I'm using is kind of like a, since it's heightening the value of your ATS, it's kind of like a function of how much you're paying for an ATS is a correlated there. So we'll probably be charging anywhere from 400, $500 a month for most of the companies of the cohort that I mentioned. Joel (24m 39s): It's fairly transparent of you. We appreciate that, Tim. That's not a bad answer. I don't know. I think there's the bell. Chad (24m 48s): I think we're there. Joel (24m 51s): That's we're there. Tim, are you ready to face the Firing Squad? Tim Connors (24m 55s): Yes, I am. Let's do it. Joel (24m 58s): Chad, get him. Chad (24m 60s): Woo. Okay. So first and foremost, Tim, I would like to say that right out of the gates, the name doesn't bother me it. And here's why even though Try Pearl or Pearl or IO or Calm or whatever the hell you want to choose. Joel (25m 18s): I can't believe you just said the name doesn't bother you? Chad (25m 22s): It doesn't, it doesn't and here's why. Because if you're going to power back end processes, right and if you do this through partnership much like gocanvas.io did, and I don't know if you know or not, but they were actually acquired by Jobvite to now Amman is the CEO over there, but that didn't matter to them because they had their focus and they knew exactly how they're going to go to market. And I feel it's a little shaky with you still, but you have time because you're young. There's no question recruiters have tool fatigue. Chad (26m 3s): opening.io was just acquired by iCIMS just months ago. Right. And I see this as kind of like an opening.io light. White box is, is best for identifying bias, there's no question and it's much easier to sell. So overall I think it is a crowded field to an extent, you have an opportunity to be able to help companies leverage all of that money that they've already spent in their database and also message to those individuals when an opportunity opens up. So when a job is posted and they match up. So I love every single bit of that. You have to tighten your game up tremendously because you were on the verge of a firing squad, but yet you're going to get a golf clap. Golf Clap (26m 54s): Soft clapping. Joel (26m 55s): All right, Tim. Bless your heart. So thanks. The name is whack. I'll go ahead and say it, whether it matters or not, you need to get a better one. I think you can. It's not that difficult. But aside from that, I think that you're in a little bit over your head, you're new to the space. You have a bit of a track record of not necessarily getting bored, but this isn't working. It's not making a difference moving on to something else, which isn't, which isn't the worst thing in the world. It's okay to be like this, you know, win fast, lose fast, is a fine model like this isn't working, let's go do something else. Joel (27m 38s): So I appreciate the fact that you've actually, you know, you face COVID, you've made some pivots changes with the business. That's great with your small team, that you've been bootstrapping. I'd love, I would have loved to hear that you had an integration done at least one. So you, you have something under your belt, some track record of success, some customers that are using the product. Cause I can tell you that just integrating with greenhouse or any other ATS is not going to be a panacea for boats and hose you know, in short order. It's very tough to get into these integrations and be successful and you're still going to have to do the work of the marketing and the sales and all that, all that fun stuff. I think that your point and maybe the most pressure point that you made in this entire conversation was the realization that tool fatigue is real. Joel (28m 29s): And that it's very tough to sell in this, in this space, in this market. And that you have a product that has a little bit of a track record of being challenged, going in and revitalizing resumes and into databases. Like there's not been a great track record. And these are companies that have been well-funded had had people within the business that had been around, that had contacts and knew people that they could help start the ground or hit the ground running. So for me, my friend, I think that you've got a great idea inside of you somewhere, but I don't think that this one is it. So for me ... Firing Squad (29m 9s): Bang, bang, bang. Joel (29m 9s): I'm going to say Firing Squad, hit the bricks, go do something else, but we still love you, Tim. Tim Connors (29m 15s): All right. I appreciate the feedback guys. Chad (29m 18s): Oh, you're very welcome. Very welcome. Joel (29m 21s): And with that, another episode of Firing Squad is in the books. We out. Chad (29m 27s): We out. Firing Squad OUTRO (29m 27s): This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the chadandcheesepodcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today that's www.chadcheese.com.

I mean, could we really NOT do a 2020 Election episode? Of course not, so we've invited infamous social media troll Ted Bauer - equal parts northeast liberal and Texas conservative - to the podcast. The guys talk about everything from what went array in 2016, to the top issues and differences of 2020 and, of course, predictions. If Sovren's AI would've had this discussion it would have been much smarter... Enjoy and VOTE! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. SOVREN PROMO (2s): Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now based on that technology come Sovren's, artificial intelligence, matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second receive match results that provide candidate scored by fit to job. And just as importantly, the jumps fit to the candidate make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com, that's S O V R E N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human Sovren Software. So human you'll want to take it to dinner. President Trump (46s): I'm really rich. INTRO (47s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (1m 8s): Election day podcasts. Remember the band Arcadia that was made up of like free Duran Duran members, hit song Election Day. Yeah. Yeah. Chad (1m 18s): I don't know. I don't quite remember that song probably, because it was shit. Joel (1m 25s): All the ladies love Duran Duran. And if you wanted to get in with the ladies, you needed to know a little bit of a Simon Labon. Chad (1m 34s): All right ladies and gentlemen, today, we are going to be talking about election stuff and we're just going to have a, just a pure discussion about some of the shit that's been going on. We brought Ted Bauer on today. Joel (1m 45s): Who is Ted Bauer? Applause (1m 47s): Clappping and cheering. Chad (1m 48s): He's one of the, and here's the reason why I wanted to have Ted on. Ted is one of those guys on social media that post memes for shock value, but instead of just yelling MAGA and running away and every response, he, he looks for a real interaction and Ted has a conversation around the stupidity that's actually happening. So I thought, we have a stupid show. Ted likes to talk about stupid shit. Let's get Ted on. Let's talk about the election, Ted, give us a little bit, little Twitter bio about you. Joel (2m 20s): Let's get stupid. Ted Bauer (2m 22s): Yes I am generally stupid, but I appreciate that intro because that is what I try to do. Like I think, especially in the last two to four years, we've had a lot of bullshit swirling around. So I try to like engage with both sides about it. Cause there is a validity to both sides, even if we don't always see it. But, and then just like generally from a vocational sense, I've write for people. So like ghost writing, freelance stuff, marketing. Joel (2m 54s): Are you the one writing all that direct mail that I'm getting right now? Are you the one behind that shit? Ted Bauer (2m 58s): I've only done one time. And I've been doing this shit like five years and I've only done a direct mail thing like once. So I've stayed out of that fray, which is cool. Chad (3m 9s): Let's get into the, into the soup here, kids. So first and foremost, Joel and myself and our wives spent 2016 together hoping that we were going to see a president Hillary Clinton, that never happened. And that night evolved into some shit. So the question is, how did we get here first off, Ted? How did, how did we get here? This is kind of like a quick post-mortem. Ted Bauer (3m 38s): Okay. Well, first of all, real quick, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Leon Bridges, the singer? Joel (3m 44s): Was he in Duran, Duran? Ted Bauer (3m 47s): I think he had a big song that was on that Big Little Lies, the HBO show. And he was on a Super Bowl commercial last year, but randomly I watched the 2016 election at the same bar as him. So that's my little like celebrity tie in. Like, I don't have a cool wife story about how that night devolved but wrong. I did watch it with a guy that has been on a Reese Weatherspoon HBO show, his music, at least. Chad (4m 15s): So when, while you were sitting there and then afterwards, right? I mean, what went wrong? If there were some things that you could boil it down to? Right. What went wrong? Ted Bauer (4m 25s): Okay. Well, it seems like the big ones are Hilary pulled out of upper Midwest too early. I feel like that was a big thing that didn't get covered as much, as it was happening, but kind of screwed her, cause it felt like it all came down to the upper Midwest. At the end of the day, I do feel like I was walking my dog the next morning. And I was like pulling up local media, YouTube videos from like Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, whatever. And you know, you have that whole JD Vance, like hillbilly LG narrative about like how the Midwest got gutted by like technology and all that shit. And I agree with that, to an extent that's a big, the media likes to bang that drum, but it is true. Ted Bauer (5m 10s): And I found like, I remember I was walking my dog, he was like taking a shit in this field. I used to live next to like a golf course. So I used to like in a show against the elites, I used to like, let him shit on the golf course sometimes. So I just remember I found this video from Ohio and this guy was like, you know, my, like my grandfather worked for Whirlpool for 25 years and my dad worked there for 35 years. And then I started there and then they outsourced 700 jobs. And like, Trump was only one talking about jobs. Joel (5m 46s): Hey, Ted, do you feel like, do you feel like the Hillary not going to the Midwest States, was that hubris or was it a strategic fart by the campaign? Ted Bauer (5m 56s): I think it's a mix of both, man. I think she probably thought she had those tied up because they're not that they all have been solidly blue, but maybe she was seeing numbers that she had them tied up. But I, I think it's partially strategic fart too. So that would be the big chunk. I do think, like I don't buy the toll Trump fake news thing, but yeah, there was that huge Biden, Hillary, Obama rally in Philadelphia, like by the Liberty Bell and it had a bunch of people and that was all that got covered. But Trump that night had like a 30,000 person rally in Michigan and then obviously like only Fox news covered it. Ted Bauer (6m 41s): Right. So that I don't buy his fake news shit that much. But that was something that even like a week after I was like, huh, like I don't watch Fox news. I had no idea that he had 30K people added like an assembly plant in Michigan the night before this election. Right. Joel (7m 2s): Sure. How much does, did Comey's investigation affect the election if at all? Ted Bauer (7m 7s): I think it played in, but I do think like sometimes people that are more educated and like close to a lead or whatever who like follow the news and subscribe to newsletters and watch cable and shit. I feel like they know about that stuff and care about it more than an average voter. Like I kind of feel the same way about Russia. Like we made a big deal on Russia and I do think they did something, but if really all they did was like buy Facebook ads. I don't know how much that shifted the electorate. Chad (7m 41s): Have you watched the Social Dilemma? Ted Bauer (7m 43s): Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Chad (7m 45s): So there's, there's a little bit of that in there. So, Joel, what are your thoughts? Joel (7m 49s): I feel like there was a lot of hubris, not just by the Hillary folks, but just by the country. You know, Obama was a very sort of calming candidate and president and we had eight years of sort of just nice, presidential behavior. Clearly we know now that there was a huge segment of the population that felt left behind by that whole period. But I think that a lot of people who would normally be energized and engaged on the blue side of the political spectrum were sort of lulled into believing that no way could a Trump presidency happen. I think that's changed now. And we'll talk a little bit about how what's different in 2020, but I think there was, there was definitely a lull of like, this could never happen. Joel (8m 34s): We're better than this. And, and combined with that, I think that the Russian thing does have an impact. And I think it was less about the ads that were bought versus, you know, the fake media entities that were created. You know, my dad, my dad is my dad is the focus group for what's wrong with that whole side of, and my dad would stories from, you know, the Independence Journal, right. Which is, which is nothing. It's just, it's a made up website that looks like a legitimate paper and the shit that they were spewing was ridiculous. But I really feel like, because my dad being 80, 80 something, thought, Oh, this is a real publication providing news about, you know, this sex ring and the bottom of every Starbucks in the world. Joel (9m 20s): Yeah. I do think that had an impact. I think, I think Comey saying was a little bit of like, Oh yeah, see, Hilary's crooked. Put her in jail that affected a few things. So those were minimal to the point of, I think the big thing was like, we just kind of fell asleep at the wheel and I don't think that's going to happen in 2020. Chad, what are your thoughts? Chad (9m 40s): Yeah, I think, I think Hillary could have made one decision that would've changed everything. If you, if you think of Hillary's running mate was Tim Kaine. And I think that was a horrible choice. Eight years of Obama and then, so now we're going back to business as usual. I think if she would have chose Corey Booker, then the repression, or what have you of the voter, you know, the voters that the black side of the house, I don't think that would have happened. I think they would have actually come out to vote because they wouldn't have felt that it was business as usual. I mean, just one change that could have been one change. I don't think there would have been anything that we could have done about Facebook other than Obama actually cracking down on it, but he was afraid to crack down on it because he thought that it was going to look like he was doing it for Hillary. Joel (10m 27s): How about the, just real quick, do you think the Bernie, the Bernie bros were an impact because I think there was a share reaction to like, for sure, fuck the establishment. We're going to stay home or we're going to vote for the opposition. Ted Bauer (10m 38s): Yeah. I think, I think it was a factor if you talk about like, okay, the total thing was probably decided by like less people that can fit in University of Michigan stadium, then there's enough. There's enough. Bernie people that could probably have flipped it. Joel (10m 54s): Did you just bring up Michigan and our podcast? Chad (10m 59s): They could have fit in the horse shoe. Ted Bauer (11m 1s): The horse shoe. What I was going to say too, is like, I do feel like there was hubris on the pollster side too. And I feel like Luntz has said this, but like, if we get 2020 horribly wrong. And like, right now we're saying Biden plus 10 by 10 plus six and swaying or whatever. If we get it horribly wrong and it's like Trump, 330 electoral vote or whatever, like, can anybody trusts polling in the next, like 40 years? Joel (11m 31s): Yeah. Yeah. Chad (11m 32s): That's the problem right now is the whole trust factor. And that's exactly what Trump's been able to push is you can't trust. You can't trust anybody, but him, you can't trust the media. You can't trust doctors. You can't trust pollsters. You can't trust any of it. Right? None of it can you trust. Only I can fix it. President Trump (11m 53s): "I am the chosen one." Ted Bauer (11m 54s): Do you think there's been like a general erosion of expertise or trust in expertise in the last few years relative to other periods? Cause I don't know about like 52 to 56 or whatever, but it does feel like we, like, you know, you get somebody that is a fucking PhD in some subject, right? And it's like, he'll post something on Twitter and his accounts verified and the fact that he's done all this research is in his bio. And like some guy will be like fake news, exactly. I just spent 30 years on this. Ted Bauer (12m 34s): Right. Chad (12m 35s): You've got to take a look at, this has been really a schooling on disinformation campaigns and how to actually in, you know, in today's world, pull off a disinformation campaign. And we we've been okay at it over the years and, and spreading disinformation in many different ways, whether it's using the internet, but, but not to this level of toxicity. So I think this is one of the things that we have to realize is that we as a country have that hubris or we're like, Oh yeah, nobody can crack into here. Nobody can, nobody can impact us. Well, guess what kids? Joel (13m 12s): Wrong! Ted Bauer (13m 13s): Exactly wrong? I'm not a huge fan. I like all the disinformation stuff you polls. But I did, I laughed for like five minutes about that Despacito thing when it was like Biden, once it played Despacito on his phone and they put it as like, fuck the police. Chad (13m 34s): So what's the difference? What's the difference in 2020 now versus 2016? What do you think it will be the difference or, or won't be the difference for, for Biden and Kamala? Ted Bauer (13m 46s): Okay. Well, the thing we can't ignore is that he's a guy and she was a woman and I still think we have problems with that, but a lot of people have strong opinions on her. I think Biden a lot of people are like, okay, I don't love him, but I don't, he doesn't massively offend me. He's just kind like. Joel (14m 4s): He's Uncle Joe. Ted Bauer (14m 5s): Yeah, he's like a dopey career politician. Right. And that you can get into a whole rabbit hole about whether we should have career politicians. We shouldn't. But the thing is, I don't think he offends a lot of people, maybe 3% of the far right are like, Oh, he's going to sell us a China or whatever. But I think most voters are like, Oh, he's just a fucking old guy that reminds me of my uncle that I see every other Thanksgiving. Chad (14m 30s): We got two old white guys though, running for president. So Joel, what do you see the difference? Joel (14m 36s): They're so different though. I mean, so, so on one end we basically sign up for the reality show for season two and just like the Apprentice, it was sort of fun. And the first couple of seasons and you know, like, like I told Chad by the last season, they had to get Gary Busey on, you know, for people actually watch it. And I feel like God, if we sign up for a four years of that, like good Lord, I don't know if I can, I can't deal with my wife for sure. Right. And then on the other end, I think we have, I don't know, almost sort of an Ike Eisenhower guy, right? Like we got through World War II, everyone sort of just spent, you know, we bombed Japan. It was like, let's just take a breath. Joel (15m 18s): Let's just exhale. Let's turn the temperature down, you know, in the oven. Cause we're about to boil over and really do some damage. So, you know, I'm an optimist, you know, we'll get into predictions later, but I just feel like with the pandemic, the unemployment that is just getting started and in my opinion, everything that's going on globally, the rise of China, like I think, you know, for me personally, I just want to take an exhale break. I want to like step back and have someone like Uncle Joe come in for four years, make nice with our allies, have some, have some control of this virus and this pandemic. Joel (16m 0s): And then like in 2024, we'll come out and we'll figure it out at that point. But right now I just feel like, man, we need to like chill the fuck out. Cause we're about to blow up. Ted Bauer (16m 10s): I agree. I'm I, the Apprentice thing is a good analogy too, because it was funny. Like the New York times tax return stuff, he basically was like, right before Apprentice season one, he was like, shit, I need something? Right. Chad (16m 28s): Wrong Ted Bauer (16m 28s): So it's like, President Trump (16m 30s): I'm really rich. Ted Bauer (16m 31s): There was a new Yorker article about this like two years ago. That was pretty good. But like, you can, you can blame all this at some level on Mark Burnett, you know, just like resurrecting him when like in 1999, 2000, 2001, all he was doing was like shitty branding deals in the Middle East. Right. He wasn't even Joel (16m 52s): Fahrenheit 119, Michael Moore movie where he, he theorizes that the whole announcing for president was to get NBC, to pay him more money than Gwen Steffani who had just signed a contract for the Voice, which was more than his contract. And before, you know, it everyone's like sweet Trump presidency and he just rolled with it and accidentally fell into the presidency. Ted Bauer (17m 14s): Yeah. I've heard that theory. And it's sadly like it's completely viable. Chad (17m 18s): It is. It is. It is. So let's, let's jump into like the two or three key issues you think are actually pressing voters. So Joel, what do you got? Joel (17m 30s): Pandemic, pandemic and pandemic. Chad (17m 33s): hahahaha Joel (17m 34s): I mean, I'm joking, but you know, I feel like not only the, the scourge of the virus, but how we've handled it and how we want to as a country handle it. And I think the long-term global effects of, of the pandemic and where, where are places in that world? So if you, if you take each of these separately, one is like, okay, we have one presidential candidate. Who's saying like, we need to wear a mask. We need to distance ourselves, we need to take control, we need to listen to scientists and doctors and like create policy around that. And we have one who says, fuck that we're rounding the bend. We have 50,000 people in a rally who aren't wearing masks. Chad (18m 12s): Listen to me. Joel (18m 13s): You know, I'm, I'm going to magically come up with the, with the, with the vaccine after election day. I know I told you it'd be gone by Easter. I know I told you it'd be gone by summer, but this time, I mean, it it's going to be gone after you reelect me. So on that, and I think it's important on the other is like globally. We're seeing the rise of China. I mean, we saw that we saw that in any way, but now we're seeing it expedited and accelerated. I mean, Asia is going to see actual growth in their economy this year. And I think they're going to lap us in many ways. And I think if their outreach to Europe and all this is more attractive than ours, that becomes a real problem in terms of sort of the global balance of power. Chad (18m 56s): Yeah, cause we we've pulled out of all of those conversations and I mean the French, the Paris Accord, I mean all that shit. Right. So it's like, there's a vacuum. Who's going to fill it. Yeah. Joel (19m 6s): Yes. If I had a magic wand and Biden became president, I would make Barack Obama, the Secretary of State for like 12 to 24 months and just say, Hey, Barry, fix it. Like go to Europe, go to wherever you need to go. And like, make nice with everybody. It may not be Barak. It might be who knows Mitt Romney or somebody. But I mean, I hope that happens because it needs to. So yeah, I mean, I think the economy and all those things that are normally an issue, but I think most people now are going to vote based on what is the next 12, 24, you know, 48 months look like in terms of tackling this problem that's a worldwide pandemic. Chad (19m 48s): Yeah. Ted says no to a, PO doing anything in the administration. What are your top three there, Ted? Ted Bauer (19m 55s): Okay. Obviously pandemic would be one just like how he's handled it to this point and perceptions there. And I would say you can avoid economy. And China obviously plays into economy to some level. I do think what you guys said, maybe five minutes ago about, white collar even, we're probably only in like the early second wave of layoffs, right? So you're going to have like higher income professionals loosing their jobs. And some of that class probably feels like they're protected by Trump or the right in general or whatever. So economy is going to be a big one. Ted Bauer (20m 36s): And then I don't buy, like the suburbs, law and order, safety stuff as much because it feels like a big dog whistle or whatever. Chad (20m 47s): Your wrong. Ted Bauer (20m 48s): But, but the affirmatively furthering fair housing thing that Obama and Biden did, which was supposed to encourage communities to allow more affordable housing apartment and condo, smaller single family houses, to go up. Trump ended that. And so I do feel like there is a class of suburban women who probably still fear that, Oh, like if a black family and minority family moves in two doors down, that's going to do something to their house or whatever. I don't know what the turnout in that class will be. And it's mixed because I also know there's a right leaning, suburban women that are like tired of him tweeting. Ted Bauer (21m 29s): So they're kind of like moving away from him in that regard. I don't know which side is greater, so that's going to be interesting. So I would say pandemic is number one probably far and away. Two would be economy, which like the role of China versus our role plays into that. And three would be this whole like law and order subdivision safety thing. Right? And it just depends like, which of those I feel like pandemic is probably going to flare up the most in terms of influencing a person's vote. Joel (22m 4s): Do you feel like Trump has the leg up on the China question? Ted Bauer (22m 8s): Yeah, because I think that even to go back to what I was saying before, even though I think that not everybody follows like Hunter Biden drama or whatever, just the fact that there are nuggets and kernels and breadcrumbs out there where you can like more easily tie Biden and his family to countries you haven't heard of, or can't locate easily or whatever, you know, like Trump might be in bed with all of them and he's done branding deals in Asia for years. But I think for an average person just looking at the news slash Facebook, whatever, it's easier to tie Biden into like, Oh, he's probably in bed with them. Ted Bauer (22m 51s): So Trump probably wins that narrative for an average person. Yeah. Joel (22m 54s): It's interesting you went that direction. I was thinking more like, I think that, you know, the tough on China thing resonates pretty well with, with voters. And so I think that's an advantage Trump, but it's interesting that you took a different, different way. Chad, what do you think are the top three issues? Chad (23m 11s): First off? I think it's, it's interesting that you think that with Ivanka getting like, I don't know how many different patents and trademarks in China, since her dad's been in that, that you think that, that Biden's in deeper. That's, that's interesting. Overall. I think healthcare is one of the things that we need to think about as we're talking about COVID, we're talking about a pandemic and we're talking about wanting to take away healthcare from how many millions of people. And you know, we're talking about all these, you know, well, I'm not going to take away your healthcare. The thing that pissed me off, and, and I was a Republican before Trump's dumb ass, because he pushed me out of the party. As I started to see these Republicans who were her, who were pissed off about Obamacare. Chad (23m 56s): And then they had the opportunity to bring options to the table, plans to the table, to be able to evolve what they wanted to be, nothing happened. And we still have a president who's saying, Oh, well, I've got a healthcare plan. That's coming, dude. You've been saying that for four fucking years, you're a liar. So the healthcare piece for me is huge because we need to cover our people to ensure that they're healthy. But one thing that gets me and I got to ask you guys both this. What one disinformation campaign works the best to do to drive division one, just one topic? Ted Bauer (24m 32s): That's a good question, man. I would say like, it seems recently that sadly, like one of the biggest things has been early voting timelines, when election day actually is, there was a thing a couple of days ago that like Facebook approved ads to run on November 4th from the Trump campaign in like four States. I think Arizona was one of them that basically, as I say, like it's a new morning in America and Donald Trump is still your president, which is like true because the inauguration wouldn't be till January. Ted Bauer (25m 12s): But just like the fact that people don't know like basic dates and timelines within their, where they live is like a little bit concerning and that can get exploited real easily. Chad (25m 23s): The American voter, the American population is ridiculously uneducated around something they should hold close to their heart. Ted Bauer (25m 33s): Absolutely. Absolutely. Chad (25m 34s): Joel, what do you think? Joel (25m 36s): So your question is misinformation or sort of? Chad (25m 39s): Yeah, just the one campaign thing that you think drives the major, major division? Joel (25m 43s): I think ultimately Trump represents sort of this white patriarchal history of America. So, so I think that the wedge of, you know, the, the law and order, the looting, the Antifa stuff that I think most of the stuff that went on was peaceful. It was, it wasn't looting, It wasn't breaking stuff, obviously that happened. But I think sort of building this, like it's either us or them and them is the whore, you know, the Huns at the gate, they want to raid the suburbs. They want to destroy your schools. They want to take your guns. Joel (26m 23s): They want to just basically it was this whole sort of putting us, pitting us against each other, I think has been the biggest detriment to sort of our society. But I think unfortunately it's probably work the best in Trump's favor because I think a lot of the suburbs and older people are going to go vote and think, Oh my God, if Biden gets in, in addition to my 401k going to zero and you know, everything else going bad, you know, like those people are going to come and really fuck shit up. And I think that's a real sad, sad component of this. Chad (26m 56s): Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's it's the, the, the racial division to an extent, but also it can, I think maybe second is the, the bullshit disinformation around capitalism versus socialism, Oh, Americans is going to become this socialist country. It's like you stupid motherfuckers. And then people listen thinking that it's a black or white choice, right. It's, it's either capitalism or socialism. When we've had a blended government for years, we need to tweak the fuck out of it, don't get me wrong. Right. But this whole narrative around capitalism versus socialism, I think splits us because people don't understand basic economics. Ted Bauer (27m 34s): Not at all. And I mean, you could argue, and I've gotten yelled at online a ton of times for this, but like the New Deal was basically socialists in many respects, you know? Chad (27m 44s): No, there's no argument around that. How is there a fucking argument around that? We created jobs that the United States government created jobs and then started fucking paying those people. How is it not a socialist activity? I mean, come on. President Trump (27m 60s): Don't be rude. Ted Bauer (28m 2s): Here's one thing I was going to ask y'all to, we can go into predictions probably after this, but like, I will just looked it up this morning and we have not gone over 60% on eligible voter age since '68. Right. So a lot of people this year wrote the '68 to 2020 comparison articles because of unrest and all this shit going on and lootings or whatever. So do you think, first of all, do you think we go over 60% of eligible voters? Or do you think that pandemic, I know we've had record early voting. Do you think the pandemic like makes tomorrow like a non-starter and then we stay under 50? Ted Bauer (28m 46s): Like I think 2016 was 55% of eligible. Do you think we got over 60? Do you think there's like our biggest turnout in decades? Or do you think it's like fucking low as hell? Chad (28m 58s): Yeah. It'll be big. Joel (28m 59s): Yes. Big thing. Chad (29m 1s): Big. There'll be big. Yeah. So that part of the predictions it'll be big. Joel, what are your, what are your, what are your predictions? Joel (29m 9s): Okay, so, so I am, first of all, I'll say that I'm, I'm a Republican, Chad used to be a Ted. I don't know where you fall in the spectrum, but it's maybe important to point that out in this podcast. I am, I'm an optimist in America. I know that the world is really down on us at the moment, and we have a lot of international listeners. So I do appreciate that. But for me, the lines to vote the, engagement around early voting and making sure that my voice counts says that By Golly, America can still be, you know, the, I, the idea on the Hill that everyone strives for. Joel (29m 49s): So I'm incredibly encouraged by my fellow citizens going out and voting early in terms of predictions. I think, I think this is a blue massacre and I know at least Ted doesn't agree. I, Chad probably doesn't either, but I think that we make a statement not only to ourselves, but to the world that we're better than Donald Trump. And we're better than the division, the governing through Twitter that's been going on quite frankly, a government that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime. And the fact that I have young kids that are looking at this and thinking this is government, really gets under my skin and pisses me off quite frankly. Joel (30m 29s): So I believe Trump is gone on Tuesday. I don't think there's any like question. I think that the Senate flips blue. I think that every Republican who's been quite frankly, a little bitch and just going with what Trump wants is going to be told, like we're not going to stand for that. And my, my hope as a Republican is that we take that message and say, we need to really rethink about what we are as a party in terms of predictions. I think it's a blue wave. I think we know Trump is out as of Tuesday. I think the Senate flips, I think Congress probably gained seats. And I think that we go back to turning the temperature down on the, on the discourse in our country. Joel (31m 14s): We make nice with our, our allies. We get this pandemic under control. We take a big breath and get over this and then, you know, get our footing and, and hit, hit the future with some, some optimism and some positivity. So that's, that's my prediction. Chad (31m 31s): Ted? Ted Bauer (31m 31s): I think Biden's gonna win. I don't know if it's going to be massacre, but I think it's going to be sizeable. Joel (31m 39s): Do you think it's over Tuesday? Ted Bauer (31m 41s): I think it's probably over Thursday. If I had to guess. I do think then Pennsylvania might be an outlier. I think we're probably over shadow of a doubt by Thursday, but then we're into like a, a mech, a nice like two months plus of lawsuits on Friday morning. I do think Biden will win logically and wide enough that Trump would have to be carried out by the army, which would be a pretty stunning visual, you know, Chad (32m 12s): Wrong. Ted Bauer (32m 12s): ... If he tries to double down on it, I want to see a blue wave. I mean, the house I feel like is stable. Senate, I think there needs to be like a four flip five foot, which is doable. I would love to see that Harrison kid in South Carolina win, that'd be cool. Yeah. School board and like local shit matters more to people's day-to-day lives. Right? So I wouldn't mind getting like a little bit of progressivism around mass incarceration and stuff and big County DA offices too. But at the top of the ticket, I feel like Biden's gonna win. I don't know what the EC number will be, but it's going to be convincing enough that even with lawyers and shit working in hyper drive, I feel like he's not going to be able to claim he won. Ted Bauer (33m 1s): You know? President Trump (33m 2s): I'm really rich. Chad (33m 4s): Yeah. Last but not least I'm going to, I'm going to go kind of the way that Joel went. I believe that Florida goes to Biden and it's over quick. If that happens, I think it will be over quick if Florida doesn't go Biden, I think it's going to be a horrible week for everyone because the dis information is going to be re ridiculous on every device we have. Joel (33m 30s): How about the Senate and everything else. Chad, do you think that? Chad (33m 33s): I think the Senate, yeah. I think the Senate will flip, I think what you had said with regard to one of the things that again, really pressed me away from, from Republicans is, is Ryan, right? So you take a look at Ryan. I thought he was going to be the pretty much the future of, of the, of the Republican party. And he turned into a jelly-spined little bitch. And so did everybody else, everybody else did too. Nobody would stand up for what they believed in. And that pushed me that in effect pushed me out of the party possibly, forever, because there's no way I can ever trust and that the grand old party anymore. So yeah, I believe that we're going to get, it's going to be a blue wave overall, and we'll be able to get rid of some of the shit that, that Trump's done and hopefully get, or get into Uncle Joe mode. Joel (34m 25s): This was fun guys. Ted Bauer (34m 27s): Appreciate the time. Joel (34m 27s): Let's have a drink and a hope for the best. And We Out. Chad (34m 34s): We out. OUTRO (34m 35s): Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. OUTRO (35m 16s): And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

Ethan Bloomfield is a recruitment tech industry veteran who helped vendors like JobTarget & ZipRecruiter growth hack from ground zero. Ethan currently spends his time on the beach in Costa Rica while growth hacking for TruckersReport.com, another industry that need solutions to problems Ethan is currently hacking. Enjoy this blast into the past and then catapult into the future as three industry veteran chat and argue about growth hacking, tech, process, and more... This podcast powered by the silky smooth talent attraction products of NEXXT. INTRO (1s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (21s): Oh yeah. Chad (23s): We're slumming it today, Cheeseman. Joel (25s): It's Monday noon and I'm already drinking. That must mean, Chad (29s): YES! Joel (29s): ... that Ethan Bloomfield is on the show. What's up everybody. I am Joel Cheeseman of the Chad and Cheese podcast joined as always by Chad Sowash and stay. We welcome to the show. It's a long title. CRO of Truckers Report, industry veteran, and friend of the show. Ethan Bloomfield, Ethan, welcome. Chad (49s): There he is. Ethan Bloomfield (50s): Thank you guys very much here from sunny Costa Rica. Chad (56s): Okay. So I think we're just going to jump into the shit. Joel (59s): Oh man, you pushed Chad's button on that. Chad (1m 2s): You went from Massachusetts to Costa Rica in no time flat or let's that that's at least what it seems like. How, how did that all come together and how did you find yourself on the beach with horses and shit? Joel (1m 15s): Right. All of a sudden there were pics of Ethan barefoot on horses on the beach. And I was like, what the hell is he up to? We're like, Oh, he moved, Oh, well, no shit? Ethan Bloomfield (1m 24s): Barefoot on the beach as we speak. So I have been traveling to visit Costa Rica for, I don't know, five or six years vacation prior to getting married. And then since we got married, this was our spot. And from our first trip, we were like, this would be a great place to live. It has everything. It's the climate, it's the ex-pat community. It's the connection to the US. It's very free country in terms of coming and going. It's actually, you may not know this, but I think one of, or the only country in the world with no army or military. Ethan Bloomfield (2m 5s): Crime is relatively low in most areas and very, very ex-pat friendly. And so we had been looking at homes down here initially as a vacation home, something we could just come visit a couple of times a year and we kind of just looked around and said, why? Why not just go and stay? I'm just as far from the airport as I was in rural Massachusetts, you know, I was an hour and a half from Logan. So I was, you know, two hours from the airport here. And I'm like, let's give it a shot for a year and see if we want to do this. And, you know, we can always come back home and still have a place to vacation. Ethan Bloomfield (2m 47s): And that was two and a half years ago. So that's, that's my story. And I'm sticking to it. Chad (2m 53s): So what about infrastructure? Cause you talk about roads. I mean, Costa Rica, not quite the same roads. What about internet? Cell signal Joel (3m 2s): Yankees games? Can you get Red Sox, Yankees games down there? What's up? Ethan Bloomfield (3m 6s): So all criteria to picking a place to live, right? So I've got a hundred Meg down, five Meg up. So the uploads, obviously it's not fiber, but we've got really good internet. And having done this for awhile, you figure out all the hacks to streaming anything you want. So it's a combination of Nord VPN, plus all the streaming services and I pretty much get whatever I want for TV. Not always live, but for me more important than baseball is always the NFL. Something, Joel, can't appreciate much lately. So, but yeah, overall, the infrastructure's good, roads are bad, but you know, there's a saying down here is bad roads, bring great people, you know, they're improving, but overall infrastructure, electricity water, the basics, internet, electricity is really solid, even where we are. Ethan Bloomfield (4m 1s): And we're not in any kind of a city. I think our population is 7,000 or so. Joel (4m 5s): Are roads the biggest con or is there a bigger, bigger setback than that? Ethan Bloomfield (4m 10s): I'd say from infrastructure roads are the biggest con the new biggest con guys is realizing I'm stuck. You know, as much as it's been great to be down here and watching from a distance, everything you've experienced. We can't visit the family because right now, the way our tourist visas work, we wouldn't be able to get back in the country. So supposedly that's going to be changing in the next month or two, but we've been out of the States for eight months. And you know, it's been hard in terms of not being able to visit family and missing life events, but shoot, I mean, that's happening when you're in the States. Ethan Bloomfield (4m 51s): So, you know, it's not the end of the world, but yeah, I'd say that's the worst thing is probably the roads. Joel (4m 58s): So we probably get got ahead of ourselves there, realizing that a lot of our listeners don't know who you are. You have quite an illustrious past in the industry. And I want you to just sort of go through while you're on the show, how long we've known you, your experience, what you're doing now, just sort of what you're up to industry-wise? Ethan Bloomfield (5m 17s): And I don't want anybody who's listening to think that when I pay you compliments, I mean them. I'll share a few, some of which neither of you probably know, and that goes back to fake it till you make it stories. I was a dot.comer in the late nineties and also in telecom. And as that all exploded, I ended up finding my ways long story short into human resource publishing and eventually selection and assessment tests. And my first business was building an applicant tracking system online around an ATS, one of the first automated ATSs. You've never heard of it, but we had about 150 installations. Ethan Bloomfield (6m 0s): And interestingly, I had contracted with Job Targets. Can you guys still hear me? So then I joined Job Target, which is really where it all began. I don't know if anybody knows Andrew Banever who owned the company, which eventually split into two parts. One became the association niche job board platform, which is where he started. Then the other side, which is what he runs today, was the company I helped him build, which was the one-click early distribution, programmatic-ish, I guess, back in the day. And so I, I helped join him a couple of good stories, certainly one about Joel. Joel (6m 43s): Easy. Ethan Bloomfield (6m 44s): So, Joel was pretty well known back in those days and you know, I convinced Andrew, we didn't even have a product, I think I had PowerPoints that made it look like I was clicking through web pages, to introduce our ad distribution platform. And I was out there telling Don Ramer and John Malone, Equest and Arboreta, we're done, we're coming for them. And I, and I walked up with some of that same BS. And there's this group of these, you know, Stallworth industry guys sitting in San Diego on a day bed at an ERE conference and there were these guys like Joel Cheeseman, Oh my God, I got to go meet this guy. And Chris Russell, Oh my God, these are the most influential people in the world. Ethan Bloomfield (7m 27s): So I, I went over and started shooting the shit with you guys was really not known for anything or having done anything in the industry at that point but I told you I was. And we, you know, we started talking at that point and, and those were some of what I felt were, you know, or thought were some of the most exciting days of this industry. 2006,7 leading into the great recession. We were having a lot of fun and building business had a lot of success at job target made it through the great recession with them. And in 2012, I was recruited to come by Ann Siegel to go work at Zip Recruiter initially on the Biz Dev side, trying to expand the partnerships for the alerts programs. Chad (8m 16s): How big was it at that point? Ethan Bloomfield (8m 18s): They were nobody. Chad (8m 19s): How many people though? Ethan Bloomfield (8m 20s): 20, I was number 18 or 19. I think somewhere in that range, once we got there, we spent about the first three to six months, really focused on developing the Zip Alerts platform and the, the kind of backfill for email product. But it became really clear to us really fast that our subscription product was the place to really focus time and energy. So I moved into sales leadership and helped to build the inside sales team, the outside sales team, the agency team, the customer success team, with some great partners, one of which is actually work with me today, and we'll come to that in a minute. Ethan Bloomfield (9m 2s): In 2015, as we got from that 20 or so people to, I think we're about two 50 or three, it just became clear that as a, you know, a senior sales leader, it wasn't going to work for me to be on the East coast. And my kids were still in high school. So we really needed to move somebody else into those roles. So I stepped out on very good relationship and actually it was thanks in part to Ian, as well as others that I started my consulting practice, Vital Few. Ian, when I left said, he'd like to keep me involved. And so I stayed on as an advisor and a consultant to him and some others in the company for about a year. Ethan Bloomfield (9m 44s): I was like, well, why don't I consult to other companies in the meantime, glowing endorsement from Ian and I went on to work with about 30 or 40 other industry companies, predominantly recruitment media, some recruitment tech, and had a lot of fun with that. Around the same time that I was moving down here, I had come off of actually a pretty, a failed startup. My, my idea around consulting was always to find products and services that would, that I could build based on the pain and challenges that companies faced. And so we had built outbound.ai, which was human assisted dialing platform for sales teams, et cetera, et cetera. Ethan Bloomfield (10m 30s): And that kind of fell apart. And I had, you know, my, my kind of corral of clients that I worked with, you know, just a handful. And my idea when I moved down here was that, you know, I have a few clients. My view of the world had changed, I don't need to be the richest guy in the game. And, you know, it's a younger person's game. And you know, not that we're ancient guys, but, you know, we were tired sometimes, more tired than others. And, and so, you know, I was down here doing that and Sam, who is the owner of Truckers Report, most of you have never met him. Ethan Bloomfield (11m 12s): He's owned the site for about 12 years. It was originally just the community, which has discussions, forums, CDL, practice tests. He didn't know about jobs. And he and I had met at IEWS conferences or TA tech conferences over the years. And the minute I launched my consulting practice, he had hired Vital Few to help him out. And when I got down here, he said, you know, things are kind of getting interesting in this business, on the recruitment side, but with the three people I have working here, it feels like we're kind of stalled out. How do we go next level? Will you help me find kind of an executive to do that? Ethan Bloomfield (11m 54s): And I spent the weekend thinking about, and I said, Sam, was that where you recruiting in that conversation? Or, you know, right. So He said kind of, but I didn't want to impose it upon you. I know you just moved to paradise and you'd rather be barefoot in the sand with your horses. And I said, you know, if this thing is just too special to ignore, so we made a deal and I decided to come in and help go to the next level in a way that you just can't when you're a consultant. Right. And both of you guys have consulted. It is hard. It is hard because your clients don't listen to you. Chad (12m 32s): Oh yeah, it's exactly right. Exactly. Joel (12m 37s): You pushed another Chad button. Ethan Bloomfield (12m 39s): It's a lot easier when you have the job and you're there all day. And so, you know, this company has gone since I joined from three or four full-time people. I think we're now about 30, two and a half years later, internationally and completely 100% virtually. Joel (12m 59s): Do you miss being the entrepreneur? And I also, I think we learned a lot from our failures as much as our successes. And I know that you're maybe downplaying the impact that you had on ZipRecruiter, particularly in the early days, but I'm curious in your failings, what would you trace that back to? Or what would you, what, what did you do wrong? I guess, what, what did you learn from it? Ethan Bloomfield (13m 20s): The, you know, this was the hardest lesson in life, Joel and I had to learn it like three times, because that wasn't the only failure I had as an entrepreneur. I'm not a founder. I'm a really good, like, I don't know if there's any better early stage hypergrowth company leader. I'm not a founder. And, learning that was hard. It's, it's staying in it when you're, you know, not seeing the profits come out of a business that should be profitable. It's taking the long strategy. The second is pick your partners carefully. And I don't have any ill will for the guys I partnered with, but we just had a different way of thinking about how to get to the next level. Ethan Bloomfield (14m 7s): I guess I'm going to answer that, you know, I feel like I'm in the Oprah chair, I'm about to cry. I just, I'm not that good of a founder. And I'm really, really good at this phase, this tenant, I mean, job target. It was 10 people when I left, it was 120 ZipRecruiter we talked about and Truckers Report. It was like three or four people. And now we're 30. So, you know, it's, it's, the track record is really in coming in where there's, the, the claws are locked in on doing something cool, but kind of growth hacking and getting to that next level is where I've found most of my success. Joel (14m 44s): Then for the startups out there. And there are quite a few that listen to our show that are at that, you know, one, two, three, four, five to 10 people, what is the secret to hyperactively growing to that a hundred plus employees. Ethan Bloomfield (14m 56s): Wow. At number one, it's gotta be that you have the right product for the right market at the right time. And there's just no way around that, just because you believe this is the new great thing. And that's one of the things I feel like I left my startups too early. I feel like many entrepreneurs stay their startups too long by, by believing that the market for what their idea is while it might be a great idea is a lot bigger than it actually was. Guys, you know, at the end of the day, I think we used to say we had like a seven to $10 billion recruitment media industry in 2007, '08. I can't imagine it's bigger than two or three max now, maybe lower than that in terms of overall revenue. Ethan Bloomfield (15m 42s): And so there's just not a lot of big plays out there. And so, you know, you have to be totally convinced and then you have to be right, that you have the right product for the right market at the right time. And, and each of those companies that I worked for did, right, there was nothing for SMB in the way that ZipRecruiter launched it. Nobody had thought about SMB. Nobody had thought about e-commerce for recruitment postings. I used to always tell everybody in shock, you know, Monster and CareerBuilder 300, 400, $700 million a year in revenue, they used to tell me maybe 10 or 15% of that was e-commerce orders. Everything else was there 2-3000 person sales organization and ZipRecruiter cracked that code. Ethan Bloomfield (16m 28s): Truckers Report again, what we had is, is that, is that unfair advantage. And that was one of the things I learned about in consulting. We had a community of drivers that was really old for the internet, right. 11 years. And we have, you know, probably the highest demand segment of recruitment media and that's lightning in a bottle. And so really be willing to look at yourself and say, you know, do I have the right product for the right market at this time? And if not, you know, be willing to make pivots. And, you know, I think we've all seen the challenge with too many pivots. Chad (17m 7s): Yes. Ethan Bloomfield (17m 8s): So there's that the other is small changes have the biggest impact, the little things that you do in packaging. Look, I sell candidates to trucking companies and ad agencies, right? That's it. But how you package it, how you sell it, how you offer it. Those little hacks are the things that have the greatest impact. So we went from an exclusively, a performance performance-based CPA company, right? To a, kind of a mix, right company, right time of CPA clients and subscription clients. And we found that that has really unlocked our ability to add 20 to 30 new trucking companies to our platform every single month right now. Ethan Bloomfield (17m 55s): So I hope that helps them out there. It's, it's a tough one to swallow because once you've got the money and the time sunk in or invested in acknowledging that it might not be the right product for that market at that time is challenging, but there are a lot of opportunities for this technology. One of the things you and I have talked about in the past is through all of these recessions mini and big, you know, a lot of cool tech got lost. Chad (18m 22s): Yes. Ethan Bloomfield (18m 23s): Just got sunset. And I think back to a lot of how much of it I'd like to bring back. Sure. Right. So that's my best advice in some of that. Chad (18m 32s): Some of that just wasn't time for adoption. I mean, just wasn't ready for adoption is that time now, or some of those concepts available now. Nexxt PROMO (18m 45s): We'll get back to the interview in a minute. But first we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt. What kinds of companies should be leveraging programmatic? Every fortune, 1000 company out to anybody with extreme volume of jobs, you're recruiting for 20 positions a year. You don't need programmatic. You can go to a recruitment marketing agency or a job board and do a direct email with your company only. You're not in with another 20 companies and a job alert, or you're not just on a career site or a job board. You could do banner advertising, buy premium placements. So where programmatic again is one piece of the puzzle, it's not going to ever be the end, all be all. And I do believe all the programmatic platforms out there have ancillary services to support that, knowing that you can't just survive on a one trick pony. Nexxt PROMO (19m 33s): For more information, go to hiring.nexxt.com. Remember that's next with the double X, not the triple X, hiring.nexxt.com Chad (19m 49s): Back to your, your point of not being, you know, a founder. I mean, that's, that's what I think everybody has to understand. You could be a great quarterback in high school, but that doesn't make you, you know, a college or a professional quarterback, right? You might've been good to a certain level, but that doesn't mean that you can help scale and go to that next level. And/or, you just might be a great right guard, right? It's like, it's like, how do you knowing yourself in that entrepreneurial kind of like development in story and just journey. If you don't really know yourself, then that's going to be an issue. And if you're, if you're, if your investors don't know who the hell they're investing in, that's, that's another huge, huge issue that being said, there's still a shit ton of cash being spent in this space on startups. Chad (20m 45s): What are your thoughts? I mean, there's so much noise there. The conversational AI, chat bots matching the Hire Vue's of the world doing, you know, facial scans and recognition and those types of things. What do you think's gonna stick? Ethan Bloomfield (20m 58s): None of your listeners are going to like me, but let's go ahead anyways. Chad (21m 1s): Let's do, let's do it. Joel (21m 3s): Craigslist. Ethan Bloomfield (21m 3s): Let's do it, Craigslist'll stick there. Great. Joel, what was the most exciting thing in 2007? It was eHarmony for jobs. Joel (21m 11s): Vertical search. Ethan Bloomfield (21m 12s): eHarmony for jobs, everybody had eHarmony for jobs. There was like 20 of them, right? None of them exist. Chad (21m 20s): No. Ethan Bloomfield (21m 20s): Not a one, so many people, because that's not how job search works. Chad (21m 27s): Well, no, no. Yeah, yeah. But, but still, but still you're talking about a bunch of points, right? So back then, remember we were always talking about big data, big data, big data. The problem was we didn't have the processing power to be able to crunch that data, to be able to do any of the matches or even understand context on that data in the first place ,today we do. So is that, is there a big difference now? Ethan Bloomfield (21m 48s): Yeah. Yeah, no, there's no difference because here's why it's not how recruiters recruit. A lot of people, like believe recruiters are like scouring the web for candidates and, and getting on the phone. And these are some of the best salespeople at American recruiters. Most company recruiters, non-commission based, they're not making an incentive for hires. Okay. Corporate recruiters, they are screening. They're more in line with HR and process than they are with convincing the right candidate to take this job. So surfacing the right candidates with all of the technologies, then and now, that surface look at the whole, you know, before this last bus, you know, we had eHarmony bust, eHarmony for jobs. Ethan Bloomfield (22m 34s): Then we have the find the gold in your database, that was Restless, I think they're still around. Crowded. I'm Joel (22m 42s): Still hot. Ethan Bloomfield (22m 43s): Yeah. But guess what? You find somebody in there, who's calling them? Who's calling the candidate? So they match the candidate and who's calling them? And so the challenge I have with a lot of the technologies, they are pieces of a puzzle. But until you fix what's inside your, your company in the way you are recruiting or changing it, it's not going to change what's happening. You're still mostly dealing with recruiters who are waiting for hand raisers, just like salespeople waiting for warm leads to come through the door and then screen them. So the surfacing, the best to the top is an interesting idea, but I haven't seen it work. I don't even want to get into AI though. Ethan Bloomfield (23m 24s): We can talk about it all you want. Chad (23m 26s): Plus the tech, the tech that we're talking about, we took, we took a paper process and all we did was, is shove that paper process into technology, right? At one time Recruits Soft before they became Taleo, they had a single process methodology. If you didn't buy into that, well, you couldn't buy their tech because that's how they did business. Obviously they found a way to, to customize. And because they knew that there was more cash there and that just fucked up the entire system. So I guess the biggest question is what is, what is fucking up recruiting the most today? Is it that we have a bunch of lazy asses who are waiting for somebody to raise their hand instead of proactively going after them? Chad (24m 11s): Or is it just way too much bureaucracy, red tape and bullshit? Ethan Bloomfield (24m 15s): See, I don't even know. And I'll go defend our recruiters for a second. I don't even know if it's lazy recruiters. I think that's definitely a thing, but remember we commoditized the candidate when we moved to CPC. Thank you Indeed for changing yet, another thing, but there's efficiency they created in the marketplace, which is what I credit them with is they, they actually showed us what the market was worth. Remember the seven to 10 billions now two to three, but here's what they did. They made it, so it's cheaper for me to buy 10 more candidates than spend, you know, an hour more with two candidates. Right? You see what I'm saying? It's just easier to fill the top of my funnel. Ethan Bloomfield (24m 56s): And it's frankly really cheap or inexpensive cheap might not be the right word. So I, I think that we're, we're just still not matured as an industry. The second thing we think of when we create these analogies to other areas of the internet and technology and efficiencies that have come around, the other challenge is when, when you sell widgets, you know, widget, a widget B and widget C, and that's what you have. But when you are recruiting for Amazon corporate, you might have a thousand different job types, right? So it's not like trucking, which is beautiful, where it's all the same job, more or less. Ethan Bloomfield (25m 37s): And so every system, every efficiency, does not relate to the challenge that they're trying to solve. So I don't think it's fully on the recruiters. I think in part it's because the immense efficiency that we gained from the commoditization of the job ad post, by turning it into a click and catching up with the rest of the world, drove down the cost of acquisition of users so significantly that, that it's cheaper to buy a hundred new candidates than it is to spend an hour on the phone with the first two you got. Chad (26m 10s): But we already spent money on those candidates. Why the fuck aren't we using them already? I mean, we have a database of candidates that we've probably bought that same exact candidate, about six times over. Ethan Bloomfield (26m 21s): Because the labor cost is too high for you to go in the labor cost is too high. Chad (26m 26s): We're just talking about matching, though. If you can actually solve this, the candidates? Ethan Bloomfield (26m 29s): All that does is service the candidate, Chad. Chad (26m 32s): I know Ethan Bloomfield (26m 32s): It doesn't contact him. It doesn't convince him that a year ago when he shot you down. Chad (26m 36s): Isn't that what the recruiters for? Ethan Bloomfield (26m 38s): Depends on how you define recruiter. That's what a contingency recruiter does. They sell. Chad (26m 43s): That's what a corporate recruiter should be doing. I mean, it's an opening, right? And, and if that individual's already applied for a job into your system, they've already shown that they're interested. Ethan Bloomfield (26m 55s): Anybody ever say you're a bully? Anybody ever called you a bully? Joel (26m 59s): Every week. Chad (27m 0s): Me? No, never what? Ethan Bloomfield (27m 2s): No, no. I actually agree with you in, in large part. In 20 years in this industry, I've learned, I can't change internal recruiting process to improve the results of my products and services. I can't say if you call these leads within five minutes in order to beat all the other companies that are going to get this lead, you'll make more hires from me. Right? I can't change what they do. I I've tried in a lot of different ways and a lot of different times to advocate for better process. Chad (27m 35s): It's just like consulting, right? You can't make them do what they should be fucking doing. Ethan Bloomfield (27m 40s): I'll tell you what. I think it starts with compensation. I think corporate recruiters need to be incented based on successful hires, more commission than base. I've said that to a lot of clients, nobody takes that advice. Most companies have very small performance-based incentive for their recruiting teams and they're certainly lower paid than contingency, but, good contingency. But yeah, they, you know, I think it all starts with, if you align the goals of the company, with the goals of the individuals and move them to performance, that would be the starting point. But again, it is really hard to change big company HR policy and recruiting falls into HR not sales. Joel (28m 21s): So Ethan, right now, we're having a, what I would call it tatonic shift in just the world in general, but also recruiting. And I'm curious on your take of as companies lay off recruiters, whether direct employers or staffing agencies, when the world gets back to hiring again and staffing up again, do companies by and large hire back all these people to start recruiting, or in your case, not recruiting, recruiting, or do they opt in for technological solutions like automation? One of the things I thought about as you were saying, Hey, I've unearthed a diamond in the rough, but now someone has to call them well, in automation, there's a scenario where, you know, that person gets an email. Joel (29m 8s): They go to a chat bot situation, they get pre-screened, they get, they get scheduled for an interview and then they just show up. So that recruiter, corporate recruiter doesn't have to make a call. Automation can do it for them. Curious about your, take on all that? Ethan Bloomfield (29m 21s): I'm gonna answer the end and then I'm going to go back to the beginning. Joel (29m 25s): However you want. Ethan Bloomfield (29m 26s): The description was cute. That was cute. But let's take a VP of sales who gets an email cause he was a needle in the haystack and enters a chat. But I'm just telling you VP of sales, director of sales, sales manager in a thousand person sales organization, outside sales person. And I'm just using sales. Cause I dunno, I know a little bit about that, but that's not going to engage them. You want to talk about retail? Sure. Recruiters that's that's not how you engage or re-engage a recruiter. So I'm going to go back to the beginning. I don't think that will work in re-engagement. Ethan Bloomfield (30m 6s): And I think a lot of the platforms that are looking for the gold in the ATS have not yet done it in combination with a strategy that gets somebody like onto the phone with a real human being, which is what it would take to recruit me, you or most of the listeners of our show. And, and so I don't think that would work with a recruiting role, which is professional, you know, salary, not hourly type work. To answer your question. I do, you know, every time and I think it's good and I, and I may get skewered for this. I think it is good when we go through recessionary periods and we do make changes in our organizations because it does force us to be extremely efficient with fewer resources. Ethan Bloomfield (30m 57s): And I do think that good technology finally gets a chance to play a role in these organizations. So I definitely believe that recessionary trends are great for all sides. I do believe that it forces consolidation on the vendor side or you know, reduction, right? The stars continue to rise and the duds continue to, to drop out Chad (31m 25s): There are many things that we have to do to be able to obviously strengthen and become better and getting rid of some of this noise, doesn't hurt to an extent, right? It's really hard for me. As you, as you talk about all of this, to think that I've spent a shit ton of money over the last couple of years, let's say on attracting silver and bronze medalists, who've already been through my interview process and that job comes back up again. And I don't go after those people first. And I don't know how I have no fucking clue how this isn't the number one step for every goddamn company that's out there. I know they've been, they've already been through most of the steps with us before. Chad (32m 9s): Let's go ahead and hit those guys up and get some quick hires. Why is that so fucking hard? I don't get it. Ethan Bloomfield (32m 15s): It it's, you know, I add some light involvement with Crowds Evolution. I looked at an actual product doing some of the exact same things that those folks are doing. And in every single case they got the client, they saw the value, right? The clients all signed up. This was a no brainer for, to look at that existing database of candidates and everybody. And then I'm going to give you actually the answers of how to do this because it's what I'm doing now. But everybody said, wow, this is awesome. And then they got the list and maybe they had one recruiter that's going to call them. Ethan Bloomfield (32m 56s): Or they tried sending emails or they tried getting them engaged with a chat bot, right? And, and you know, like nine out of 10 of these folks, it was a year and a half ago. They're not interested. Somebody's got to sell that job or that company and the things that have changed in a year and a half since you applied. And none of these solutions solved that problem. An email or an SMS or any other engagement, you know, you need such a volume of matches when you narrow it down to 20 people in the database that are the gold for this job. Ethan Bloomfield (33m 36s): And all you do is send them out a mass communication. Out of 20 what is your expected response rate on email or texts? That would be zero folks, right? The answer is zero. You need a thousand to get three or four to respond to you. And so the challenge is it's never been coupled. One of the major things that we've done as a, just hosed on the gold in the database concept. One of the things that we've done to continue to grow, it's actually unprecedentedly during the COVID scenario and everything else that has gone on is we implemented, we, we looked at everything and we said, let's, let's just go old school. Ethan Bloomfield (34m 18s): Let's stop trying to invent new technologies. Right? And so we implemented two things. The first was obvious email, doesn't get the response rate on jobs. We implemented an SMS platform for the half a million users in our community and database who had opted in to hear from Truckers Report about jobs. And we simplified the process. We said, if you're interested, she say, so you don't have to click a link, fill out a form, just tell me you're interested. Yes or no. Make it really simple for the driver still takes having lots of them. Right? The second thing we did guys, so we built a call center and we said, everybody else is focused on new cool technology, AI, chatbots. Ethan Bloomfield (35m 3s): You know what, my audience in particular and I think this is true with other audiences, want to talk to somebody, a driver does not have to apply for a job. A job applies for a driver, right? And so we're unique there. That's the right place, right time, right product. But we built a call center. So we speak to somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000 drivers per week about open opportunities that our clients have. And we connect them. It's all integrated. We've built our home, our own home grown systems. So a lot of times, and this actually goes back to the entrepreneurial question, a lot of times, stop trying to overdo cool new tech and look at things that actually have always worked. Ethan Bloomfield (35m 44s): Right. SMS I have to tell you is probably the most under, it's used, but it's not used as much as it should be. It is really, really powerful though. Right. Chad (35m 57s): But thank god right, if everybody was fucking using it, then that would go down as well? Ethan Bloomfield (36m 2s): Right? Like, like, like email did write emails, just so hard to use and you need such a big audience, but I'll tell you the phone is magic. I get 30% answer rate. I get 30% match rate to a job. I'm a white glove job concierge. Right? And I, I have the metrics by which I can do this at a standard cost per user acquisition. Right. And that's the key, I'm not spending two hours on the phone with a candidate. It's three to four minutes reading a job ad. And obviously there's more magic to what my team does than that. But you know, they're talking about the job ad, in a way that this audience is not normally communicated with, and you stand out amongst the rest. Ethan Bloomfield (36m 48s): I think, look, the bottom line is if you want to extract what's in your database as a job site. Right. So any of the jobs sites out there that most of them know me, right? Or as a corporate organization, corporate recruiting organization, there's there's absolutely. I endorse what Chad has been saying. There is gold in the database. Step one, isn't it find the gold step one is to decide how you're going to communicate with them. What are the strategies and process to reengage them? And from what I've seen in the past year and a half or so, I'm really hot on going old school. Chad (37m 27s): And just like that Costa Rica's internet takes a dump, but don't feel sorry for Ethan, that dudes on the beach, drinking beer. OUTRO (37m 35s): Anyhoo, thanks for listening and be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese, HRs most dangerous podcast today on iTunes, Spotify, Google, Pandora, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We out.

Busting the myth of meritocracy is a must. That's the strong opinion of inclusion and belonging specialist (and proud Gen X'er) Joanne Lockwood, and she's on the podcast to educate a couple of white dudes on why it's so important if we're going to have workplaces on inclusion and diversity in the future. "The best man for the job," is evolving and Jo breaks it all down in this NEXXT exclusive. INTRO (1s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (20s): Oh yeah. You know, we love the Brits, so we had to have another one on. What's up everybody? You are listening to the Chad and cheese podcast. I am your trustful cohost Joel Cheeseman joined as always by Chad Sowash. Chad (33s): Well hello. Joel (34s): And today we're joined, we're honored to bring you Joanne Lockwood Inclusion and Belonging Specialist. And I'll note by the way, because her LinkedIn profile says that she's a proud gen X-er, which, which we obviously, yeah, Chad (51s): Maybe so. Okay. Wait, stop, slow down a little bit Inclusion and Belonging specialist. I've never seen belonging. We've I mean, we've talked about logging specialists need some belonging. What is Joanne right out of the get? What does that mean? Inclusion? We get, what is the belonging specialist to help us out with that? Joanne Lockwood (1m 9s): Well, for me, I think we wind the clock back maybe 20 or 30 years, we were all talking about equality where each country had the Equality Act this, the Equality Act that, equal pay, gender, race, et cetera. And then as we matured, we started talking about all the inequality, we want to have diversity, wants to make sure we have people in our organizations and we still have diversity programs. And now if the buzzword became inclusion, wherever it needs to make the people who are different diverse, give them some gel about making sure they had an identity. And now what organizations are realizing is, it's not enough just to give people a job enough, enough to have people coming into work, turning out, doing their thing. Joanne Lockwood (1m 50s): They need to feel a part of it. They need to understand the values and vision and culture of an organization and make sure there's a real alignment between your own personal values and the values for an organization. So belongingness is that intersection where people kind of feel that safety, that sense of that's that sense of belonging, where they feel they have a voice, they feel respected. They feel a part of the bigger organization and they're aligned with those values. So that's, that's where I come from. Chad (2m 16s): Okay. So, so they do that through meritocracy basically, right? Because the best person for the job is, is that's what, that's what meritocracy is. Right? Well, that's what I hear. And I hear it often, but I often do DNI talks or inclusions talks to hiring managers, to hiring teams. And there's always somebody that stands up and says, well, yes, but we always hire the best person for the job as if that's the kind of the get out clause. You know, they get out of jail, free monopoly card that says, yeah, where if we do the best person is going to get the job. And that's this myth, this that's this kind of mantra that people put out. Cause if that wasn't what's happening, the whole system of fairness would be undermined. Joanne Lockwood (2m 59s): You can fall back on the fact that the best person got the job. And that's what is portrayed. I question sometimes how we decide who the best person for the job is, who decides what is the meritocracy? Who decides what makes up the best person. And often I see it's in someone's image. You know, you have a person called Frank and Frank leaves. You want another Frank or you think, well, we want, we've got couple of Frank's. We like another Frank. So you you're, you're judging the skills and attributes of the role often by the incumbents or by what's being done already. Joanne Lockwood (3m 39s): And what we don't tend to look at, is other skills. We tend to base it on time served degrees, qualification, college education, or whatever it may be or someone you know. We've got to start looking at is for the future. You know, we look at the future of work. You know, you guys talk about this a lot. And I know the listeners, listen to this, talk about this a lot is that the work is changing. No shit Sherlock, you know, as we were saying, the UK and no shit Sherlock, the work is changing. The whole COVID situation going on right now, if we hadn't noticed, does this on be apocalypse is upon us. But we having to deal with this change and people working from home they're working differently. So what was meritocracy six months ago, a year ago has completely changed. Joanne Lockwood (4m 21s): What is the best person for the job? It used to be bouncy, extroverts, go getty, salesy, people that would sort of like drive and drive and drive. And now what we want is people who are more focused, more methodical, more self-starting were able to work on their own. So what we value in people now is changing. And I think we need to reflect that in what is meritocracy means and what it is? Is it just a way of propagating this status quo of people like us, Yale U. People like us, because that's what we say. How does someone who, someone who has someone who's different break into? Joel (4m 57s): Joanna? It seems to me like, this is, this is the, for lack of a better word, the best argument that people have against sort of what you're, what you're pushing. And for me personally, you know, my father was a coach growing up, right? And I'm a sports fan and which to me is sort of the ultimate meritocracy. And I think one of the beautiful things about sports is it really doesn't matter your color, where you came from your religion, anything like that, if you can perform and win, you get to be a player. And here in America, I think in particular, there's, there's a rugged individualism of, you know, you pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you get yourself through your you're gauged by your, you know, your own efforts and government isn't supposed to help you. Joel (5m 43s): A lot of that is myth mythology. But to me, this is the best argument against it. And in, in, in contrast, it's going to be the hardest wall to break down. Am I wrong about that? And if I'm not, are we breaking the wall down? Can it be broken down? What, what should, what should government's role be? There just seems to be like such a mountain to climb because we have such ingrained in our brains where the best person should get those jobs and those opportunities, but we're learning more and more that that's not the case. Joanne Lockwood (6m 13s): For sure. In some cases first past the post, is the winner. And we recognize that as you say, in sport, in the a hundred meters, Usain Bolt gets across the line. He gets the gold. And that that's kind of how we judge the meritocracy based on that kind of black, white in arguable, faster, bigger, et cetera, et cetera. But in business, we recognize that there are more skills than just being able to deliver something and the quickest way, you know, you're, you're a bookkeeper. You can process more invoices than anybody else in an hour, but you may be a complete jerk. You may have no social skills. You may not, you may not be aligned with the company culture. You may be a racist. Joanne Lockwood (6m 54s): You may, you may have all these other attributes that are undesirable for the company, but we looked at just looking at fast first past the post, are you the best person who can knock out these invoices quickly? And you may not care about their personality. You may not care about the other skills. You may not care about how they can help their colleagues and how they can add value to the organization above and beyond their basic requirements. So when we're looking at meritocracy, we've got to think about all of the factors that make a great employee, a great person, someone who's going to be, feel the sense of belonging, someone who's going to want to be with the organization for a long time, because we're not looking to have high turnover. We're not looking to make, we want to make people stick beyond three years If we can, to get value out of the investment we've made in onboarding them and hiring them, avoiding that empty chair. Joanne Lockwood (7m 41s): If we're just focusing on someone who could do something quicker, bigger, faster, then we lose all that richness of humanity around them. And I'm not, I'm not suggesting for one minute that you hire the worst person for the job, but what we need to start doing is valuing diversity, valuing difference on a par with bigger, stronger, faster. Joel (8m 2s): So you're saying a lot of, you know, we need to, we need to who, who is where, who are, who are the most important we's? Is it just society at large what's what's government's role? Is this a PR battle? Does media play a role or technology? Like what if you're, if you're, if you're creating a strategy, like who are the most important players to make this change happen? Joanne Lockwood (8m 26s): It comes down at the end of the day to power and privilege, the people with the power of decision, the people who are constructing the hiring process, deciding what that meritocracy in it. I mean, if we're talking specifically around in an organization, a business, even a government, even a government organization, where people have a hired, fired promoted, recognized, than those are the types of organizations we'll talk about. So the, we, would be the institution of an organization, the institution of the public body. I don't think government per se necessarily needs to legislate this. I think what it should be is organizations see the value of different, see the value of other skills, adaptability, learning, ability, flexibility, all these other skills that we sometimes aren't able to objectify a week, but they're kind of subjective, gut-feeling they seem a bit more flexible. Joanne Lockwood (9m 19s): They seem a nicer person. So how do we objectify these or make them measurable? Chad (9m 24s): Isn't it, identifying it the number one step it has to be identified within the organization that it's actually happening? Meritocracy is, is the best person getting the job. Well, what is, what is your workforce composition look like? And are some of those requirements for a job, like getting into a sales job, like you'd said before, do you really need a four year degree to get into an entry level sales job? Or is that just a filter to be able to create this level of meritocracy? So isn't identification really the first step? Joanne Lockwood (9m 58s): Oh, for sure. And we'll be talking about sales. We have to recognize that people buy from people and that's never going to change. You build rapport, you sell ideas, you sell a vision, a dream, and people are more ready to listen to your buy from you if you're like them, which is why we are trying to align customers and salespeople with very similar traits. So I think it is important to recognize that some people are more fit, more fitting to evolve than others. You know, I wouldn't want to suggest that you put some of the Jewish face into a Muslim account all the time or some for Muslim accounts for Jewish account, or you would say, we want to send a young girl or young woman into an account with just old white men. Chad (10m 43s): Or maybe you do because they might sell, they might sell better into that? Joanne Lockwood (10m 47s): Oh yeah. Okay. Without going to sexist, sort of, kind of. Chad (10m 52s): Old white man, I mean, that comes along with old white men. Right. Joanne Lockwood (10m 57s): Okay. I was trying not to go into that, to that connotation, but yes. Yes. All right. You got me there. Yeah. Sex does sell and yeah. And unashamedly, some organizations use attractive people to sell their products and yeah. Yeah. We see it in boxing. We see it in motor racing. We see it, all these kind of advertising where young attractive women are often use to promote brands and to promote and to sell. But then we have also, we have our definition of beauty. You know, it's is a, is a, a blonde white woman of a certain age, of a certain figure size, the de facto standard? Joanne Lockwood (11m 38s): Yeah. They're the best, or is an Asian woman, or is a Chinese woman, or is a black woman? Equally meritocracy in, in, in this kind of scenario. But we often look at it from our own lens and see what we would find attractive or what we would desirable. This is where we often fall over. We're not using enough lenses to decide what makes up the best person for this role. Chad (12m 2s): So talent acquisition is a female dominated career segment. You'd probably agree with me there, right? If this is a problem, why aren't, why are females allowing this shit to happen? Why aren't directors and managers and VPs of talent acquisition saying, no, this job description is total bullshit. Because that's, we know that's really where it all starts, right? It's at the job description, it's at the requirements. Why aren't females inserting themselves into this process and saying, look, we're identifying right now. Meritocracy is happening. It's bullshit. Chad (12m 43s): And we're going to stop it. Why, why aren't they, why aren't they doing something about this? Joanne Lockwood (12m 47s): You say that females dominate the profession. I don't think females dominate profession on all levels, maybe at the more junior or the, you know, the sort of the day-to-day roles? But do they hold the power to the other privilege as it goes up the organization? Do they have the real power to control the JD? Or are they, towing the line, you know, does, does the higher metric come along and say, well, I want us, I want a slate of these sort of people and watch their crews put the slate together. Do they have any control really about who gets hired at the end of that? Yes you can put a diverse slate with various people, various backgrounds on there, but stats show that often is the incumbent type person that gets hired because they are the ones that are, seem to be more fitting or more suitable to that role. Joanne Lockwood (13m 34s): Don't want to take a risk on someone who is less typical. And also, I don't believe the culture is always good. You know, I I've seen situations many times where people are scared or afraid to hire a woman into an all male world, because they don't know how to handle that difference. They don't know how to handle a woman in the boardroom, or they're looking at purely from a, a tokenistic point of view to tick a box or to address a short term need. Chad (14m 10s): We'll get back to the interview in a minute. But first we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt Andy, if a company wants to actually come to next and utilize your database and target texting candidates, I mean, how does that actually work? Nexxt Promo (14m 26s): Right? So we have the software to provide it two different ways. If an employer has their own database of opted in text messages, whether it's through their ATS, we can text on their behalf, or we have over eight and a half million users that have opted into our text messaging at this point so we can use our own database. We could dissect it by obviously by geography, by function, any which way some in sometimes we'll even parse the resumes of the opted in people to target certifications. So we really can dive really deep if they want to hone in on, you know, just give me the best hundred candidates that I want to text message with and have a conversation back and forth with versus going and saying, I need 30,000 retail people across the country. Nexxt Promo (15m 9s): And that's more of a, you know, yes, no text messaging back and apply. For more information, go to hiring.nexxt.com. Remember that's next with the double X, not the triple X hiring.nexxt.com. Chad (15m 31s): So as we talk about job descriptions, I think it would be, and again, just to be able to implement, as we're all looking toward technology today, to try to make our jobs easier, to make our job descriptions better. Why haven't companies embraced the Textios and the Get Optimals of the world, because this helps them degenderfi their jobs for provide better experience, those types of things. Do you think those types of tools help or is it really just kind of like smoke and mirrors? Joanne Lockwood (16m 4s): I'm not saying they don't help. I think it is good to look at the language you're using in terms of the JD, and you say Textio, or that those products do a great job. And I know the Textio working on looking at faith and religion and other other terminology, not just gender. So they're boarding out their inclusion type lens on jobs, but I think there's a lot of responsibility into maybe the positive action side. How do you target underrepresented groups? And I prefer the term underrepresented rather than diversity, because since when is a woman being diverse? A woman is 50% of the population. So I prefer women are underrepresented in organizations, maybe black people are underrepresented or under-heard or under-promoted. Joanne Lockwood (16m 48s): So yeah, I think the positive action should be about how you fill the funnel up. How do you, how do you target, how do you Spearfish the candidates you want rather than net fish and troll? So looking at how you place that JD, how you frame it away, where you advertise it, who is your sourcer? How you reach out into, into the talent pool, this mythical talent pool, and really reaching out and saying, well, actually we're looking to hire more female candidates where to be at where to be fish, where do we, where we do this, how do we sound more attractive? I don't think organizations are still clear on how to brand themselves, that they're in terms of attracting people from underrepresented communities, whether that's race, faith, or gender. Joel (17m 34s): Let's look with technology and, you know, the show and, and who we talked to, we talked to a lot of AI folks. And on one hand, AI is a panacea for unbiased recruiting companies in Sweden are building actual robots to help make that happen, which sure you you've heard that. And then on the other side, we have, we have Amazon who had an AI hiring system that they shut down because when you have people teaching, you know, the algorithm that tends to be biased. So where do you stand on AI and, and having a bias recruiting? Is it a panacea or is it like reality waiting to happen? Joanne Lockwood (18m 10s): Well, my soap box on this is kind of along the lines of tech stack is great. Having tech in your organization to LA to, to process at scale, hire at scale for some organizations is a necessary evil in order to, to, to handle the number of wrecks they've got in a certain period of time. But for me, the danger with relying on tech or AI is that it doesn't allow positive action. And this goes against what we're talking about. In order to make a difference and make change in the world we need to hire white men at a lower ratio than women or women of color, women of faith. If we keep hiring at 50/50, the situation doesn't change, we'll always end up with 70% men, 30% women or worse. Joanne Lockwood (18m 57s): So for me, we've got a higher 70% women, 30% men to start moving the needle at all. And the danger with unbiased systems is that the theory should be, you get 50%, 50/50, we should get a fair balance of people out the other end. And if you are trying to do positive action campaigns, how can you influence who comes out the end of the funnel? And that's the challenge I would put to people is that, yes, it's great to have these systems. It's great to be unbiased. It's great to give everybody this fair chance. It's great to be objective, but what if you do want to employ more black people, more women, more black women, or whatever, whatever your target under-representation is. Joanne Lockwood (19m 39s): If you unbiased the process too much, you lose the ability to put, to use positive action to select and promote and advocate for people that you're trying to attract. And the only way we can then do that is by targeted sourcing, targeted JDs at your target audience to make it an attractive in this role for the incumbent monoculture. And at the moment, people are watching one JD for everybody. Joel (20m 8s): How does, what's your thoughts about employment brand and Chad and I talked about Glassdoor, Glassdoor's new feature last week, where they actually have sort of DNI scores for companies, particularly bigger companies. Is that helpful? What's your, what's your stance on sort of employment branding and being able to fill that funnel with diverse candidates? Joanne Lockwood (20m 31s): Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've heard people who obviously, employer branding specialists, bigger up and talk about it. I've heard other people who, poo-pooed the idea of employer branding, videos of people on their side, or these kinds of stories as making no difference at all. But my is, it does make a difference if you're underrepresented, if you are coming from my minority represented group background, then you do want to see great stories about the people you're applying to. You do want to know what their LGBT inclusion stats is. You do want to know what their values are, flexible, working women's issues, childcare, health care, inclusive health care. Joanne Lockwood (21m 14s): You do want to know where people stand on this. And people are now looking at sustainability, environmental issues. You want to know where your employer stand on these type of issues. And it may not be something that us gen X as worry about so much, but I sure as X is X, the gen Z, the gen alpha is a very hyper-conscious of these, the impact on the world. And they want to work with companies that are going to be ethical, sustainable, and true and authentic. Chad (21m 44s): Yeah. Purpose, purpose matters. So Joanne, Jim Stroud and I were having friendly discourse last month, which is a 30 minute debate. And he brought up meritocracy as being the way past diversity goals. Now, Jim is a black man living in the United States, and he believes in meritocracy so much that he said it over and over and over during our debate. The question is, has Jim been duped? Have many people been duped by a very successful quote/unquote "best person for the job" disinformation campaign? Joanne Lockwood (22m 20s): Well, my easy answer to that is yes, most probably. Why do I think that? I think if we look at organizations whilst there are a lot of great organizations making huge differences, and we can all name these, the big tech brands that are making very positive statements. This sexism is still rife in many organizations, people of color, black people are underrepresented or under-promoted or undervalued in most organizations. So yes, we can say there are huge strides towards making great initiatives and great action happening. But the evidence is that there's still a long way to go. Men still make up 70 or 80% of the key positions. Joanne Lockwood (23m 3s): Women are still tokenized in the boardroom in most of the large organizations. And where they are represented in the boardroom their tenure in those positions is often fraught with challenges and accused of afterwards, because they're a woman they didn't succeed, or they're women will get fed up with the male boardroom environment where they just, they can't succeed in a boys club. Joel (23m 26s): Joanne part of it as a curiosity. And part of it is the fact that I'm, I'm cooped up in my house probably for the next year, but you you've done a lot of traveling and you, you speak in a lot of different countries and cultures, and I'm just curious, is, are, do we have more in common than we have in difference? Or are there real distinct challenges within borders? Joanne Lockwood (23m 45s): I think each territory has its own weirdos if you like. Well, it's only minority. I'm a great fan of Dilbert. I did. If you come across Dilbert cartoons on one thing, the author Scott Adams says is everyone is someone else's weirdo. And when you look over the fence, it's easy to find someone who is different to you and maybe pink hair, six foot five, too tall, looks too short in a wheelchair, has a wooden leg, so we can all find our weirdos. But what we often don't do is look in the mirror and see ourselves sometimes as the one being judged by others. So we're quick to charge, but not necessarily quick to understand that we we're just a human like everybody else, but yeah, I spent time in Ukraine. Joanne Lockwood (24m 27s): And one of the things I was very surprised at is how rife age-ism is there coming off the back of being part of the Soviet union, there was a real culture of lack of it. People weren't weren't rewarded for being educated, people were told to do, as they were told. So there was burning books, there was closing schools, they were, they were basic imprisoning academics. Anyone who dared have any intellect was kind of written off. So there's a whole generation of Ukrainians and then people in the Eastern block over 50 years old, who were basically bought up not to think or not to speak out or not to educate themselves. So that's now manifesting itself in the Ukrainian recruitment system that you immediately you're in the late forties, early fifties, you're seen as old and therefore are able or willing to learn. Joanne Lockwood (25m 17s): And I was really surprised at that attitude. And of course, again, in some of these all Soviet union, Eastern Europe sort of locations, the role of the woman in society is very much more, is very much different. It's very much more subservient to a man. The gender roles are more defined still. I was in Tel Aviv in Israel, there's hierarchy within people who have the Jewish faith, whether you're a Russian Jew, a Filipino Jew, whether you were born in Israel, been through a military service, et cetera, et cetera. There's a whole hierarchy of being a Jew within the recruitment. And if you, if you were in military service, you grew up with the cohort while you did your military service. Joanne Lockwood (25m 58s): And you're more likely to hire somebody who had, who had been in your cohort in the military and Filipino Jews are seen as cleaners and office workers and low level. And there were real kind of no value to someone who was Filipino in higher management or technical skills. So you look at different countries, we all have something. We all have a different weirdo. We all have a different demon or a different grouping that is neglected. And some countries it's amplified in other, maybe gender is amplified or race is amplified in other countries. It's different in Europe, there's language barriers. You know, there's different dialects in Switzerland, many different languages and Belguim they have different languages. Joanne Lockwood (26m 42s): The French Belgians are seen as lower status than the Flemish Belgians. So we'll have, there's so many different differences that is very easy. It's very difficult to sort of generalize as to one particular group or one particular country is getting it right or wrong. Chad (26m 56s): There is no doubt there are many different flavors of meritocracy. And from my standpoint, at this point, they're all bullshit. Joanne Lockwood, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us, Inclusion and Belonging Specialists. Joanne, if somebody wants to connect with you, are they want to find out more about what you do to help maybe inclusion and belonging in their organization. Where should they go? Joanne Lockwood (27m 25s): Check me out on LinkedIn. So if you search for Jo Lockwood, JO Lockwood, L O C K W O O D, or if you've got your keyboard handy, see change happen, seechangehappen.co.UK is my website. Chad (27m 41s): Excellent. Joel (27m 41s): We out. Chad (27m 42s): We out. OUTRO (27m 42s): This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast, subscribe on iTunes, Google play, or wherever you get your podcasts. So you don't miss a single show and be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible for more visit Chadcheese.com. Oh yeah. You're welcome.

It's not often we get a Y Combinator company to pitch on Firing Squad, so let's start with 'you're welcome, listeners.' So, who's up? CEO Prem Kumar brings his A Game and Combinator credentials to the Firing Squad with Humanly. The company promises candidate screening, scheduling, and engagement at scale. Is this a broken promise? Gotta listen to this Chad & Cheese gem, sponsored by PandoLogic, to find out. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire. Pandologic (0s): Damn programmatic is hot. Yeah, it is hot dude. Pass me a cold PBR. Would ya? Okay. Number one, I wasn't talking about the temperature and number two PBR is a shitty beer time to upgrade to an IPA. Okay. My bad guessing you were talking about programmatic job advertising being hot. Yeah. That shit is everywhere and all the kids are doing it. No man. But there's only one company that's been doing it since 2007. Damn 2007. Hey man, what wife were you on? In 2007? I was on number one. Talk about her focus, dude. I'm talking about panto IQ from our friends at Panda logic, panto IQs, programmatic recruitment advertising platform helps employers source talent faster and more efficiently than ever. Pandologic (51s): Thanks to predictive algorithms, machine learning and AI Buzzword, overdose alert. Yeah. Panda was on the cutting edge or programmatic while being deeply rooted in the recruitment industry. And do IQ provides an end to end programmatic job advertising platform that delivers a significant increase in job ad performance without any way, social spending to maximize the ROI on your recruitment spend Damn programmatic is hot! Yeah, it is hot Dude, pass me a cold PBR. Would ya? Okay. Number one, I wasn't talking about the temperature and number two PBR is a shitty beer time to upgrade to an IPA. Okay. My bad. Guessing you were talking about Programmatic Job advertising being hot. Yeah. That shit is everywhere and all the kids are doing. I know man, but there's only one company that's been doing it since 2007. Damn 2007. Hey man, what wife were you on? In 2007? I was on number one. We don't talk about her. Focus, dude. I'm talking about pandoIQ from our friends at Panda Logic. pandoIQs, Programmatic recruitment advertising platform helps employers source talent faster and more efficiently than ever thanks to predictive algorithms, machine learning and AI. Buzzword, overdose alert. Yeah. Panda was on the cutting edge of Programmatic, while being deeply rooted in the recruitment industry. pandoIQ provides an end to end Programmatic job advertising platform that delivers a significant increase in job ad performance without any waste spending to maximize the ROI on your recruitment spend. Joel (1m 18s): And their AI enabled algorithms use over 48 job attributes and more than 200 billion historical job performance data points to predict the optimal job advertising campaign. The machine does all that shit. That shit sounds expensive! Think again. Cheesman pandoIQ provides an end to end job advertising solution that delivers a significant increase in job ad performance without any wasteful spending. Sold! How do I get started? Go to Pandalogic.com to request a demo and tell him Chad and Cheese sent you. Ooh. They have a chat bot too, that we can talk to. Joel (2m 0s): Oh, kill me now. FIRING SQUAD INTRO (2m 2s): Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad! CHAD SOWASH & JOEL CHEESEMAN are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they got what it takes to make it out alive? Dig a fox hole and duck for cover kids the Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel (2m 24s): Hell yeah. My trigger finger is little bit nervous today. What's up everybody? You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is our Firing Squad episode. I'm your cohost Joel Cheesman as always joined by my trusted cohost Chad Sowash. Chad (2m 42s): Hello. Joel (2m 43s): And today we are honored to welcome! Chad (2m 46s): So excited! Joel (2m 47s): Prem Kumar don't call it the White Castle movie guy, a CEO and cofounder of Humanly. Prem welcome to the show, man. Prem Kumar (2m 58s): Thanks for having me. Thanks to White Castle you pronounced my name, right? So I don't mind that. Joel (3m 4s): I'm sure the White Castle jokes are a little old so I at least had to say your name correctly in order to, to make it so a welcome to the show for those who don't know, you let's get into a little bit of your personal background, like in a tweets bit of a bit of length. And then Chad will go into what you've won. So tell us about you Prem. Prem Kumar (3m 23s): Awesome. Thank you both for having me. My background is in B2B, SAS, HR technology, people data. I spent about 10 years at Microsoft. I finally escaped and then spent two years at an employee engagement startup, Tiny Pulse here in Seattle before starting Humanly. Joel (3m 40s): Good, Chad (3m 40s): Nice! Joel (3m 41s): Good. That's good. You have practice. Chad tell him what he's won. Chad (3m 44s): Well Prem you, my friend, we'll have two minutes to pitch Humanly. At the end of those two minutes, you will hear the bell. Bell (3m 53s): Ding, ding, ding. Chad (3m 54s): Then Joel and I will hit you with rapid fire Q and A. If your answers start rambling or you get boring Joel's going to hit you with the crickets. Crickets (4m 3s): chirp, chirp, chirp Chad (4m 3s): That's your signal to tighten your shit up at the end of Q and A, you will receive one of three grades. Number one, being big applause. Applause (4m 12s): Clapping Chad (4m 13s): That means you'll be snapping necks and cashing checks, my friend. Joel (4m 16s): Back up the Brinks! Golf Clap (4m 18s): Golf clap. Chad (4m 21s): Yeah, we kind of dig what you're doing, but you're whooshu was weak. Firing Squad (4m 26s): bang, bang, bang, Chad (4m 31s): That's the firing squad! You've been knocked out and carried off the canvas and this probably isn't the game for you so get the hell out. So that's firing squad. Any questions before we go? Prem Kumar (4m 43s): No. Ready to go. Thank you. Joel (4m 45s): In three, two, .... Bell (4m 47s): ding, ding, ding Prem Kumar (4m 49s): Our goal at Humanly has helped mid-sized organizations bring efficiency and equity to their hiring processes. We do this by automating job candidates, screening, scheduling, and engagement at scale. For our next act we'll actually be moving down the recruiting value chain into the black box of that interview itself more to come on that. Our sweet spot is organizations with 500 employees or so plus or minus and roles that have high applicant volume, think tons of resumes, high turnover, and repetitive screening processes. So these are entry to mid-level sales, operations, support. For these roles, hiring teams are currently spending about 64 hours screening resumes going back and forth and scheduling parole. Prem Kumar (5m 32s): And for the first time ever over these last many years, 72% of candidates who have had negative experiences are now sharing that online so hiring teams are swamped, the result is time wasted, bad candidate experiences bias as well as employee brand hits. You know, there's many tools that have emerged for large enterprises to solve some of these issues. Many of those companies have been on the show. We found that midsize companies just don't have the tools to engage candidates at scale and are being left behind, along with their candidates. If these companies have the tools to engage with their candidate pipeline, the same way marketers and sales professionals can with their leads and prospects, we'd be in a different spot. Prem Kumar (6m 13s): We built a tool that will engage with candidates wherever they are spring them and schedule them better yet. You never have to sign into Humanly other than setting it up. We feel any tech company can build a bot, we do have one of those, but just like anyone who can talk can technically ask screening questions. Our focus is more so on what questions are being asked when through what channel getting the right candidates to the right recruiter faster. And as we bridge the gap between people in tech or humans and tech, our next step is launching interview analytics tools to help people become better at interviewing. So moving from addressing the black hole and screening to the black box and the interview. Bell (6m 48s): ding, ding, ding. Chad (6m 50s): Ooh man, that was right on the button. So quick question Joel loves labels, so we want to be able to help him out here. Is this a chat bot or is this conversational AI? Prem Kumar (7m 1s): We consider a conversational AI with chat bots being one kind of delivery mechanism or one channel to deliver it, the conversations through. Chad (7m 8s): Okay. So on your website you have kind of a choose your own adventure type of chat bot. Meaning obviously you don't have to, you don't type anything in, you just choose options and it's not conversational at all. Is that a good demonstration of your product? Prem Kumar (7m 26s): I think generally the chat bot delivery mechanism is not, not how we get to people. So I think, you know, the SMS might be a better, better demo, but to your point, one big problem in screening is inconsistency. And when you go too deep into natural language processing or open-ended conversations, it might feel better in some degrees, but you're also not having a consistent strain happening with your candidates, which leads to . Chad (7m 52s): Gotcha. So what you're talking about is variable data versus non-variable right. You have structured data and then you have all these variable, all this variable data in fields, which you have to crunch. So from your standpoint, it was much easier to get to where you are today by fielding the data in having a choose your own adventure type of scenario versus going really deep and trying to do NLP and all that other happy stuff. Is that, is that what you're trying to do? Prem Kumar (8m 22s): So, I think it's not necessarily easier. It's where we chose to invest our time and money. And a lot of that was based on interviews. We did. So while we folk, while we, the bot you see on our website itself yeah. The time to market with something like this as super short, but we've gone really deep on things like integrations, things like what questions are actually being asked in screening processes, how we're using our data. So I think we've made some trade offs, but yeah, definitely I think anyone building a chat bot can get to market very quickly and even the NLP and machine learning algorithms are being commoditized in some cases. So I think it's the data at the heart of it. Joel (9m 1s): Interesting. So I've always got asked this Humanly.io was human dot LY taken, does anyone own humanly.com? It's a competitor, how'd you come up with that? Prem Kumar (9m 12s): So I keep checking every day and companies like go daddy or are looking at it and it's too expensive for us right now. We're a seed stage company, but yes, yes. humanly.com is taken. I don't think it's being used a whole lot. And then actually they just want something and then a human dot LY. So we went with what we had. Joel (9m 31s): Gotcha. Your Tiny Pulse experience. We usually love folks that have some prior knowledge of this space. Talk about your experience at Tiny Pulse and maybe how that helped formulate the current company. Prem Kumar (9m 44s): Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think one of the things I learned at Tiny Pulse, so , we were again addressing this mid market space and I met my co founder, Humanly Emmett, my accumulate co-founder Tiny Pulse. He was in sales. I was in product and we really saw, you know, this mid market space has huge pain. It didn't have the tools they needed to, to screen and schedule at scale. How it informed Humanly, every most, every other hiring tool I've seen there, that's gotten to scale in the mid market as well as staffing agency success is that our role was filled that someone was hired. To us It's not just that that happened, but that you hire the person with the highest impact, the highest employee lifetime value to do that. You need post hire data from tools like Tiny Pulse from performance management tools. Prem Kumar (10m 27s): So I think hiring should be looked at more holistically. So having that experience in employee engagement helped me a lot. Joel (10m 32s): Gotcha. Now it looks like you've raised $950,000, is that correct? Prem Kumar (10m 37s): Yeah. So we're, we're actually in the midst, in process. So I can't go into exact numbers, but yeah, it's a little bit North of that. Joel (10m 45s): So, so there is a series A coming, I assume you're raising more money? Prem Kumar (10m 49s): Yes, our plan is to go big next year. And right now we're raising to position ourselves. We're seeing, you know, some folks that are traditional players, limping a little bit. So we feel we have an opportunity right now between now and next year. Joel (11m 4s): Got you. So what are you, what are you using the current $950 for? I saw that you have a partnership with the football team, the San Francisco 40 Niners, which I'm sure as a Seattleite doesn't play real well with the locals, but what's that money going toward these expensive NFL partnerships? Prem Kumar (11m 22s): Okay, good question. So one of the, one of the biggest things we're doing, so product is, is a big area. We're taking, you know, some out of playbooks, like, like Zuora around how they scale outbound sales team so sales and other is another area. From a partnership standpoint. One of the biggest things we'll be doing from a product standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, as well as just from doing the right thing standpoint is investing in making sure our tool is helping people that from underserved groups, find work. So, yeah, we're partnering with Eric Armstead and the 40 Niners who runs a nonprofit focused on that same initiative. We're partnering with Inroads, which is the biggest nonprofit in the country focused on helping underrepresented groups find work. Prem Kumar (12m 4s): And there's a lot of things we're doing in our product to eliminate bias in screening, as well as in the interview. Chad (12m 9s): Well, that being said, screening engagement and reference checks, that seems to be your lane. Are you doing anything with regard to accepting information for job applications? So being able to do that from a conversational standpoint, as opposed to the attach your resume bullshit that we've been doing for years. Prem Kumar (12m 30s): Yeah. Great question. So I think the common theme in those things reference check might kind of seem like an outlier. The common theme in that is we want to define all of those repetitive conversations that are currently happening over the phone, or even in SMS, of course, or emails that recruiters are having. And we wanted to automate those. And then those higher leverage conversations like an actual interview, we wanted to help people be better at those. So automating what we can and helping people be better at the rest. From an application standpoint, the good news is a lot of the tech to like parse resumes and things like that is being somewhat of a commodity. So our, our goal is not to build commoditized solutions and utility series, but to use that data, to ask better questions, less bias questions, and, you know, manage that whole application. Chad (13m 19s): So from a, I guess, say from a competitive standpoint, many of the competitors are doing that because they want to gather and field the data themselves. And then it provides that full kind of like full life cycle of engagement. But you're not doing that. Do you see that as a perspective con as you go into sell some of these organizations, because you don't have that full life cycle and you're not engaging them right out of the gate. Prem Kumar (13m 47s): So, so it's actually actually, no, and I might have not explained it well, but absolutely I'm at, we're a data company. We're a data company that uses data to solve utility problems in recruiting. So we absolutely are, are collecting that data when I refer to things like resume parsing, being commoditize. It, what I mean by that, it's easy, easy for us to build that now, but really the value we have is not providing that utility in application, but it's in how powerful the questions are based on the data we have. We're not going down the path of as you mentioned, some competitors that are going full cycle post hire in terms of building chats that will help you onboard or do benefits QA. But we have the data because we plug into those post hire systems. Prem Kumar (14m 30s): So performance management systems, we don't want to give you a new thing you have to enter data into, but we certainly have, I would say more, more of the data because we're plugging into where people are already putting it. The biggest problem in data, when I was at Microsoft and we acquired LinkedIn, one of my jobs was figuring out how we take this mammoth of data and bring it into Microsoft Solutions. And you don't want to give people my opinion, new ways, new things they have to do to give you their data, you want to grab it from where it is and provide a better selection. Joel (14m 58s): Hey, if you're going to name drop Microsoft, you might as well throw LinkedIn there as well. Good on you. Curious, where, where do you guys fit in this, in this ecosystem? Because you know, you have competitors that have raised tens of millions of dollars. Are you sort of the solution for the little guy? Where do you, where are you looking to position yourself or are you looking to raise the kind of money that they have to compete with them? Where do you fit into this ecosystem? Prem Kumar (15m 25s): Yeah, that's a really good question. And, you know, I think there's room for a couple of large players to come out at the end, but like you said, absolutely, a lot of them, a lot of them have been on your show. So I kind of answered that from a market standpoint, a business standpoint, and then a tech standpoint. So from the market standpoint, yes, we're aggressively attacking, you know, midsize as well as, as well as SMB. So you know that to us, that isn't just a different set of marketing tooling or a different sales motion, but that's a difference in how we build our products. So who we integrate with, you know, what features we have, you can get set up with us in about a day. It's a very quick cycle. So a lot of those cater to a smaller businesses or mid sized businesses. Prem Kumar (16m 6s): So that's kind of one part of the landscape, you know, I think from a technology standpoint, we're very much focused on automating those repetitive conversations. So we're not going to go down the route of turning into an applicant tracking system. We would rather partner with ATS. Joel (16m 24s): Yeah. Well, you said the magic word integrations. So talk about where, where you're currently integrated. What's on the roadmap for the future. Who are you going to say to hell with them? What's going on with the integration strategy? Prem Kumar (16m 38s): You got him apologize first. Cause I will have to name drop one more time, just cause it's very relevant to this, but what am I, what am I move roles at microsoft was working with startups in helping them build integrations into our ecosystem. And it's been a big, big part of what I did there as well as at Tiny Pulse. I, we have data suggesting that, you know, it's one thing to acquire a customer, but to keep them, you have to be deeply embedded into their existing ecosystem. So from an integration standpoint, you know, it's not just putting ATS logos on our website, but it's, what does integration look like? Is it, you know, is it sinking data by directionally, is it just getting the candidate in there, or are you pulling data out of the applicant tracking system so we're able to ask questions in a better way? Prem Kumar (17m 23s): So, so it is a big part of what we're doing. If you have an ATS, you don't have to even sign into Humanly other than setting it up originally or initially. So we act as that recruiting coordinator, interacting with the world where the ATS is more tracking versus interacting. Chad (17m 39s): Well, at that point, if you're integrating into applicant tracking systems, I'm trying to understand exactly when, when a candidate is going to be engaged by Humanly. I go in, I click apply. Does it start there? Or does it start after I put my data into this chunky ass applicant tracking system that is really horrible to use on mobile? Prem Kumar (18m 1s): Yeah, absolutely, so it's more the first thing. So it's instead of a recruiting coordinator, kind of doing that phone screen and then manually adding the data we do, we engage with you at the point of application. So we're the kind of the most for most of our customers or kind of that first step in between application and your first interview. We take you through a set of questions based on role fit culture, add impact. We add you into the ATS and not just put your record there, but fill out the fields, put in the notes. And the second piece is I think, you know, filling one role is one thing, but with these high volume roles, you're going to have another hire, you know, in a couple of weeks. Prem Kumar (18m 42s): So we'll also look at applicant tracking system data to keep in touch with your silver medalist candidates saying, Hey, Chad, are you still in Ohio? Or did you finish this degree? We have another role. So I think there's the ongoing maintenance that's right now happening with people and mid market companies can't afford a lot of people or heavy tech. Chad (19m 3s): So you're in a very competitive space. There are names. I mean, we could probably fill the whole 30 minutes with, with names for goodness sakes. Yup. Wow. How, how are you going to differentiate yourself? Not just sector, but how are you going to differentiate yourself from many of these big names who, some of them just got tens of millions of dollars? How do you do that? I mean, it is, it's, it's a very crowded, crowded space. How do you do that from a product standpoint and then from a marketing standpoint? Prem Kumar (19m 37s): Yeah. And also go into just also from just a, in addition to marketing, kind of the business side. So on the product side, and I think one advantage we have is, you know, you've had people raise, you know, tens of millions, 30 million, 40 million in many cases. And it's kind of like if I were to take a hundred recruiters and then people train them up to be the best at recruiting for these markets, these demographics, it professionals in Seattle that speaks Spanish for a year. I train them up. So they're the best of the best. And then I get a hundred new people that are joined. They're not going to be as good as the one I trade for a year. I right now that money, that $30 million, that $40 million, that $10 million is, there's an opportunity we have here, or that's not going to this set of roles in these markets for this particular demographic. Prem Kumar (20m 28s): So I think we have the opportunity to build the world's largest library of these kind of virtual screening conversations for this market, technologically, with our data and that, you know, we have more data over time. And we also, I find it very difficult. I've seen folks kind of move, try to move down market a little bit. It's pretty difficult to it takes a whole different product. I feel a whole different marketing and sales strategy to get into that segment. So I think we have a little cover. The other piece is, one thing is really important to us and we spend a lot of time on is around how we make these screening conversations, less biased, and that, you know, there are companies like Textio, that'll do that in job descriptions, but I do not see our primary competitors, like the first five names that pop into play, doing a strong, strong enough job there. Prem Kumar (21m 13s): And to me, that's a defensible piece of tech that we're building on the business side. Yes. Business marketing on the business side, you know, there's a lot we've learned we've done this before. So I think, you know, like Zuora had a great business differentiator around, you know, having, you know, how have they had their European strategy and had, you know, low cost, outbound SDR models. We want to do the same with our, we consider our CS team a huge differentiator. We're the only company in our space that has CS people with at least five years of experience and I think being prescriptive with mid market five years of recruiting experience. So having a vertical ICS team that is prescriptive with our customers is really important in the mid market, I feel like too. Joel (21m 54s): Your website says, and I quote all candidates, have a great experience. How in the hell can you make such a statement? Chad (22m 3s): How?! Prem Kumar (22m 4s): Yeah. So, so, so there's a lot of different ways I can go with that answer. So, I'll give you, my vanilla answer, and then you can push me if you want. But, so yeah, it is our mission to ensure that candidates have a great experience. We publish every single .... Every single candidate goes through our experience can rate our bot and we publish every single one on our website with permission and we will redact personal data. And so we've resulted in an experience score of about around 4.8, 4.9 out of five. I think this way we started as I didn't, we didn't start building this company by thinking, how can we build a creative NLP machine learning bot that can talk to anyone, we started by doing a lot of interviews. Prem Kumar (22m 55s): So I interviewed people that had autism. I interviewed people that were blind, that were different races, that were had military backgrounds. And what we found is a lot of these tools are not bringing them along. So what the blind guy interviewed cannot. Yeah, he's awesome. And he cannot interview at companies that are using certain AI video screening tools because they bias against his facial gestures. Folks with autism have more challenges with certain types of interview sites. So I think creating a good candidate experience starts by making it accessible to all. And then there's a lot we do, which I'm happy to tell, I'll save that for later but around the questions we asked specifically to, to reduce bias as well. Joel (23m 35s): All right, I'll be nicer in my followup. You're, I think that your reference check technology is pretty unique. Am I right about that? And kind of walk through that, how that works. Prem Kumar (23m 47s): Yeah. So, so yeah. Yeah. We're, we're reference checks as one example of a very repetitive process and conversation. There's also compliance issues there. So with, EOC compliance, a lot of times, if people are calling a reference and asking something, they shouldn't there's liability. So we can guarantee that. And this goes back to the consistency thing that was asked at the beginning, because our conversations are structured we can also guarantee compliance to a degree that can't, we can't in open-ended and open-ended scenario so our customers love that. From a reference check standpoint, when a candidate gets to a certain field or certain states or in your ATS, so you've moved them from screens to reference check, we will automate out an email or texts to them saying, Hey, can you give us a set of references? Prem Kumar (24m 35s): And we will then contact the references, VR chat in an automated fashion, get asked some questions and sync it back. I think the reason, and I'll make this brief, for the reason why people have really struggled with reference checks is people just pick their friends or people they know. And they'll always say nice things, I think because you can do it at scale now where we actually can let you do reference checks, not just on those five finalists, but on a hundred people at once and ask a set of questions that don't really have a right or wrong answer, but will give you a more holistic view about a person. So then when you go into the final interview, you have the you're equipped with the right questions to ask. Chad (25m 13s): So back to the website, Humanly uses predictive learning to measure the potential lifetime value of every candidate, finding employees that will impact your organizations, et cetera, et cetera. So candidates could be coming from a very shitty position with a shitty job, biased job, could be females who were, were passed over that never got a chance to spread their wings into position, bigger positions at their old companies. How can you predict anything around potential, with so many fucking variables? Prem Kumar (25m 50s): Yeah and that's almost almost answering the question in the sense that our goal is not to give you those silver bullets, but to eliminate as many of the variables as we can. So, one thing I can tell you definitively, like in our data, for example, we find that one of our customers is hiring for an account manager in Seattle. And, you know, as we ran through their data, they were asking a lot of questions around the difference between four years of experience or five years of experience, or looking at a particular university with a higher degree of, you know, when they were manually doing it, thinking more highly of the candidate, what we were able to show is the most important factor for them in account managers in their market at their company was actually coachability. Prem Kumar (26m 35s): As we asked coachability questions, we then saw in their performance data and in their employee engagement data, how these cohorts of candidates were panning out. How long they were staying, where they, you know, engaged? we were able to see that, you know, the ones that have higher employee lifetime value were the ones that was more related to coachability than things that are biased, like maybe years of experience. The difference between zero years of experience and three, obviously is a big difference, but four to five wasn't one. And, you know, we're seeing the same thing with, you know, on a gender scale. So with our products we're beta-ing right now that will listen in two, two interviews. Prem Kumar (27m 18s): The next step in the process, we're finding that, you know, female candidates for engineering roles, with one of our customers, which I won't name are actually getting six less minutes, every phone interview than their male counterparts. And that's because the managers are more likely to interrupt, which we can tell by the zoom call transcripts, they're more likely to show up late. So there's I think a lot of things we can uncover without having to find a silver bullet, we're just getting rid of all the other bullets that aren't going to make a difference. Joel (27m 48s): Alright, Prem, this thing must cost an arm and a leg, right? talk me through the pricing. Prem Kumar (27m 54s): You guys are always getting good at the pricing question. So, so yeah, so yeah, Joel (28m 1s): It's an easy one. Prem Kumar (28m 2s): I, so I said generally how we don't price as we are not charging based on success. We are not charging based on, you know, amount of candidate volume to address earlier question, our goal is to make, to get as much data as possible and we do that by giving it's charging a flat rate each month. And so we'll sit down and find out, you know, are you to have 50 year olds this year? Do you have between 50 and 200, or do you have 200 or more? And based on those buckets, those aren't the exact numbers. But based on those buckets, we will give you a flat monthly cost. We want you to use us for all your roles so we can collect more data. Joel (28m 38s): Were there any numbers in that actual answer? Buzzer. (28m 41s): Buzz. Prem Kumar (28m 41s): No. Other than the amount of employees. Bell (28m 43s): Ding, ding, ding. Joel (28m 44s): All right. All right. Prem time is up here. Are you ready to face the Firing Squad? Prem Kumar (28m 50s): Hopefully Joel (28m 51s): Chad, get him. Chad (28m 53s): Prem, Amazon tried to do the whole candidate scoring and Fitz screening and they scrapped the whole project because it was inaccurate and buyers. So I got to say, background, your background obviously allows you to understand a lot of this and obviously very eloquently articulate exactly what's going on, which Joel and I could never fucking do. But this is hard. This is a lot of what you're talking about. You know, you make sound simple, but it's not easy if it was everybody would be doing this, this unbiased tech, right? There's crazy competition out there. We know that you guys are still in seed round. Chad (29m 33s): The integrations piece is, is key for me, right? For you to focus on integrations first, even white labeling, for God's sakes. That is, that is a very big key reference track checks, and definitely getting that cash in the door. I love this setup. I think you guys look slick. You sound slick. You've got great background. You've got a great background, but you're not quite there yet. Get some cash and I think you might be on the road to a big applause, but today you're getting the golf clap, my friend. Golf Clap (30m 11s): clapping. Prem Kumar (30m 12s): No worries, thank you. Joel (30m 14s): All right, my turn. Okay. Prem, you check a lot of boxes for me. You have prior experience in this industry. You're a smart cat. The Y Combinator thing means you can raise money and probably will raised money. I like the balls on you saying that NLP and resume parsing are commodities. Those are bold statements. My friend and I, I think that you're hitting the right product at the right time. Obviously automation is going to happen. I think both Chad and I believe that it's going to be accelerated in the era of COVID. Joel (30m 54s): Companies are going to come out of this time, looking for automated solutions, more cost efficient solutions and I think your product is going to be one of the ones that, that gets RFP and gets looked at. I think you probably need to raise a little bit more money. I think you realize that as well. I think that much like the ATS business, they're going to be a lot of these solutions that are successful. It's not just going to be a Coke and Pepsi, and that's it. I think that there's a lot of room to be Dr. Pepper, Fanta, Sprite, whatever. Chad (31m 27s): Big Red. Joel (31m 27s): And I think you guys will have one of those spots. So for me, it's a round of applause. Applause (31m 34s): clapping. Joel (31m 34s): I think the right team, the right company, like it's boats and hosts, baby. Chad (31m 40s): There you go!! Joel (31m 40s): I say backup the Brinks Truck. The sun is so bright you gotta wear shades, man. So Prem, we appreciate it. Good luck to you and stay in touch. And Chad, Chad (31m 50s): We out. Joel (31m 52s): We out. Firing Squad OUTRO (31m 53s): This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today that's www.chadcheese.com.

As if 2020 wasn't scary enough, Halloween is on the way, which means Cheesman's waistline is scared to death of Reese's Peanut Buttercups, but that's nothing to the horror show that is CareerBuilder. Rumors of a massive CareerBuilder cyberattack iCIMS gets super-cozy with Microsoft, .jobs drama, not drama? and Oreo commercial that'll melt the coldest of hearts (and attract the best of top talent). You want more, greedy? Then how about a Yelp-inspired beatdown in Florida. Now that's scary! Enjoy your favorite podcast, made possible by Jobvite, JobAdx, and Sovren. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. INTRO Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (21s): Oh yeah. Halloween came early for CareerBuilder, but you still have a few weeks to put together that Beetlejuice costume. Ooh, everybody you're listening to HR's worst nightmare. I'm your cohost Joel "not Pecha" Cheeseman. Chad (-): And I'm Chad "Michael Myers" Sowash. Joel (44s): And on this week show doc not jobs grabs that cash money, CareerBuilder, dumpster fire, the gift that keeps on giving and iCIMs and Microsoft get maybe a little too cozy. Don't open that executable file people we'll be right back. Sovren (1m 28s): Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry, the more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com, that's S O V R E N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad (1m 28s): So Friday the 13th or Halloween, which one was your favorite? Joel (1m 33s): Oh, probably Friday the 13th, because nothing nothing's as entertaining as a bunch of horny teens getting stabbed to death. That's always a good scene. Yours? Chad (1m 50s): How about a hot Jamie Lee Curtis? I was a, I was a huge Halloween fan. I mean, Michael Myers was just scary as hell, but Jamie Lee Curtis, she was the shit. Joel (2m 14s): I missed Jason versus that whole, that whole movie back in the eighties. I think I was too old or too young. Everybody. That was just the money grab. But yeah, the originals of both of those are pretty stellar. Pretty stellar. Chad (2m 24s): Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a question to the listeners. What is your favorite? Friday the 13th or Halloween? Not the Rob Zombie Halloween. That was shit. Joel (2m 28s): Do you think that's an appropriate LinkedIn poll? Chad (2m 32s): Could be. That is, I think that's appropriate. Yes I do. Shout Out. Bells (2m 37s): Ding, ding, ding Chad (2m 37s): First Shout Out, goes to our friends Micole Garatti, MBA aka SocialMicole and Cory Kapner from Recruit X. They put together the HR for all Twitter discussion. I believe it's a weekly thing. I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Our name's popped up a couple of times this week. I just noticed on Twitter, I started getting all these, all these Twitter notifications, but thanks for the love, Nicole and Corey, everybody listening, just a search #HRforall if you want to get into the discussion, Joel (3m 33s): Are you sure it's Micole and not Michael or Micole Mickey, Micole. It's a weird, she should do like the MySpace thing and make the "i" a "y". So it's sort of a throwback to the OJI social media. Anyway. Shout Out for me to comedians. Goddammit. I don't know if you, if you caught the Bill Burr SNL last week, he pissed everybody off. Chad (3m 36s): Yeah, Joel (3m 37s): I just, I just gotta say 2020, like... Chad (-): That's what he does... Joel (3m 52s): Let's have a laugh. Thank God for comedians, Kevin. Hart's doing good shit, Jim Carey, a lot of the old guard comedians are still doing it and we need it in 2020 more than ever. So Shout Out to comedians. Hell yeah. Chad (3m 55s): We do. Shout Out to Mindy Ruthenbeck over at the Mom Project and Ryan Ahmed at a Traitify, they love the podcast. Thanks for connecting and following on the socials and listening now tell all your peers, friends, and family, to do the same. They can subscribe wherever they listen to podcasts. And of course on chadcheese.com, which is going to get a facelift sometime soon. Joel, Joel (4m 22s): Hell yeah. More on that later kids shout out to Amman and Angela Amman burn Angela Boys in the Hood. In case you didn't know if you didn't catch that podcast, it was released this week. Go check it out in the archives at chadcheese.com, or again, like Chad said, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Chad (4m 41s): Also Alison Robinson, who is the CEO of the Mom Project, that podcast Entitled Corporate America Hates Mom. A Big Shout Out to Fred Goff, CEO over at Jobcase who that man has his finger on the pulse of the working class market. For all of you who don't know Jobcase, they are a social light job network for about 70% of the population. We have probably classified as working class. Chad (5m 11s): I'm sure Fred could give a better description than that. We're hearing the news about recovery and Fred, again, having his fingers on the pulse. He's talking about the K shape, right? Which is much different than a V-shape recovery. And, here's his quote because I think it's important for us to understand that different cohorts of people, the rich versus middle class and poor are recovering much differently. Chad (6m 36s): So here's Fred's quote, "the investor class is protected, just fined by the coordinated fed and treasury action." And by the way, just so everybody remembers the stock market does not reflect the economy. So again, the investor class workers are left increasingly behind, for example, Reuters reported last week, that 2000 billionaires, God, I can't believe they have that many fucking billionaires! 2000 billionaires increased wealth in 2020 by over 25% to the North of $10 trillion. Meanwhile, just a few weeks ago, the Aspen Institute estimated up to 40 million Americans may be evicted with extraordinary benefits that are going to run out. So, so kids understand that when we're talking about recovery at this point, yeah, it is scary as shit for middle-class and low wage workers. Not so much for those for those wealthy fuckers. Joel (6m 36s): Nothing, but a Fred G thing, baby. And in light of that, Shout Out to jobless claims we are inching back to a million. This week report outpaced numbers from what was expected. So we're getting back into that million million number, Chad time to get excited, shout out to jobless claims in the US. Chad (6m 54s): Again, Keisha, well, let's, let's go ahead and let's try to live this up a little bit. TalkPush took a swing this week on social media at HireVue, which I thought was hilarious. In a LinkedIn post our buddy Max Armbruster the CEO of talk post posted and here's paraphrased talk. Push now speaks to more than 10 million candidates. Every year. It took higher view, 15 years to reach 10 million candidates. It's no wonder HireVue wanted a chat bot right? Joel (7m 26s): That's cold man, by the way, I think Max updated his LinkedIn photo. It's like, it's like quarantine, Max in the photo, that kind of threw me off when I saw that post shout out to Fiverr. The gig economy is full steam ahead. Apparently I don't know if you've seen a fiber stock price recently, but it's done about a three X since the depths of the, the quarantine and the COVID scare in March. No fear in those guys, people are joining the platform and finding a new gig. I guess Chad (7m 55s): People are looking to make money any fuckingg way they can. That's what it is. Here's, here's a video that I want everybody there. Actually, it's a series of videos that I want everybody to go to YouTube and check out because it made me smile. It made me laugh and it just lightened up my entire day. So this, this little 10 year old girl named Nandi, N A N D I she's a 10 year old drummer who challenged David Grohl to an Epic drum battle. And it's turned into some of the best back and forth music content on the internet. Chad (8m 29s): If you haven't checked it out on YouTube, just search Nandi, David Grohl, and your welcome. This kid is amazing. She is! and David Grohl. He's just a really amazing dude. And to watch them interact back and forth, I think she's over in the UK. It's fun. Like you were talking about comedians. We need something in 2020, that's going to make us lively and laugh. And this... Joel (8m 56s): David Grohl is just such a national treasure, isn't he? Chad (-): I love him. Joel (9m 25s): And speaking of "you're welcomes," beerdrop.net, everybody we're giving away a chance to get free beer on Adzuna via Chad cheese. It has its own website. Dammit. It's so important. Beerdrop.net. If you haven't been it's mobile friendly, check it out. Give us your address. We'll pick from some sort of hat, I guess. And we'll send a nice October Fest until some lucky one or this month to make 2020, just a little bit better for everybody. Chad (9m 25s): That's right. That's right. And a quick suggestion on Netflix and this is kind of a tease to go out and watch the documentary Capital on Netflix. And we're, we're just teasing, that because one of the, one of the people involved we might be talking to sometime soon. Joel (9m 43s): Yes, that's a tease. T-shirts Shout Out! Guys if you want a new Chad and Cheese, 2020 quarantine edition, t-shirt you gotta head out to Chad cheese.com/free. Again, give us your dress. We'll pick from my hat. Some lucky winners. These shirts are dope. They're suaded they're nice fitting. They even look good on me. So check it out at Chadcheese.com/free. Chad (10m 8s): Who doesn't want free? Beer, t-shirts? I mean come on. Joel (10m 11s): We're going to make 2020 a lot better coming soon. Very soon, a lot tastier. Chad (10m 18s): Last but not least. Don't forget. Friendly discourse is coming up. It's round two, October 27th. Holy s**t. That's coming up fast. The topic is do remote workers deserve less. Jim is going to be defending Facebook's docking employer pay when they move away from the expensive Silicon Valley or the different cities that are more expensive than moving out into the rural country, citing the cost of living adjustment. And that's where I just call bullshit. So watch the socials for all the registrations. Chad (10m 51s): If you're subscribed to the Chad and Cheese email list or Chad and Cheese in your pocket. Joel tell em about Chad and Cheese in your pocket. Joel (10m 58s): Who doesn't like a good vibration in your pocket everybody? Get Chad cheese on your phone via text. Just text the letters: cc to 833-799-0321 again. That's text: CC to 833-799-0321 again. We're building that thing up close to a hundred now! Sign up, kids get a Chad And Cheese in your pocket. You'll be glad you did. Chad (11m 26s): This is how we do it! Topics. Joel (11m 30s): Oh shit. This is a live feed from the CareerBuilder IT security department. What a dumpster fire! Chad (11m 42s): Seriously, dude, I was hoping not to talk to about CareerBuilder until 2021. They're stupid 300 million in three years bait and switch, press release the sale of Textkernel . Joel (11m 55s): They're the gift that keeps on giving Chad Chad (11m 57s): And then, and then this so go ahead and let's drop back into the dumpster fire. Jesus! Joel (12m 2s): Where to begin. So last week somebody had sent us an, a sort of an FYI that CareerBuilder site was down. I think this was Thursday or Friday before or after we recorded the weekly show. So sure enough, you went to career builder and it was down and through Friday, Saturday and Sunday, the whole site just took a shit. So then the rumors sort of started coming in by Monday morning, the letters to customers and partners started coming out from the CEO, Irina Novoselsky or whatever name is the Head of Security, IT, like we're working on this problem. Joel (12m 41s): I want to say by Monday, Tuesday, they had CareerBuilder, proper job search up and running, but you couldn't go to like hiring.careerbuilder.com. Then we started getting worried that all the ATSs all the sites that CareerBuilder was powering were down, out. And here we are Thursday, a week later, the job search seems to be working, but ATSs are down. Hiring is down the site. It's still down. And so what multiple sources are telling us that this was a ransomware attack. I'm no cyber security expert, but basically what happens is someone gets into your system and then puts a nice little cryptic security key to access your databases and all your good stuff. Joel (13m 23s): And CareerBuilder apparently paid a lot of money to get the key to the castle. And apparently what I heard, even that they had put a key on the backups. Chad (-): Allegedly. Joel (13m 35s): And that nothing could be accessed. So they bought the key, but shit in the database is still screwed up. Rumor has it, that they're calling up all the engineers that they fired trying to contract them, to get them to come back and like fix this shit. But it's a total dumpster fire. I mean, this, we could have seen this coming, right? Apollo came in Irene who has no business as a financial person to be head of this company, a multimillion dollar job board. They fired everyone who knew anything. And this is what happens. There's going to be firings. Joel (14m 6s): I assume, Chad (14m 7s): Who are they going to fire? They fired everybody who mattered. Right? Joel (14m 10s): Anthony Dupree who is officially the Chief Information Security Officer. I don't know how he keeps his job and all this Lee Margaret Stall who was just promoted to Chief Product Officer probably won't be fired, but she's in the department that sort of oversees all this stuff. It's a bad situation. They're probably going to have to give refunds to a bunch of people. Chad (14m 33s): Yeah. They sent out a grid with the actual products, ATS job, hosting career site, talent discovery. And when they, their targeted dates of actually getting back online and then the support that was offered. And I mean, really this seriously, isn't a laughing matter, although CareerBuilder have made themselves a laughing stock with the $300 million announcement. And now not being able to address security. I mean decimating their engineering staff, their development staff, the security staff, all of this if people cannot see, especially clients cannot see that this is a burning dumpster fire, I don't know what else they need. Chad (15m 20s): I mean, this is ridiculous. And it's just it. I can't believe we're talking about CareerBuilder again. Joel (15m 45s): Well, look, businesses are built on trust, right? And you know, to a certain level, you know, I think Monster had a breach of identity theft or somebody got into the resume databases and that's, that's sort of common, but when you start losing trust in terms of your customers losing trust and your ability to stay open, to keep their own career sites open. Chad (-): Your ATS. Joel (15m 49s): This is so awful on so many levels. And yeah, it is, it is sad to see this happen. And I don't, I don't think you can immune Apollo from this either they've got egg on their face. I mean, they put in charge who they did. They made the decisions, that they have. It has yet to explode on, on sort of the news circuits. And we're sort of the first ones sort of talking about this. I haven't seen anybody reporting on this at all, but this is a big story. Like this should be national news kind of stuff. Chad (16m 14s): Yeah. You almost wonder if this is, I mean, this just means that CareerBuilder has definitely jumped the shark and they're, they're not even newsworthy anymore. Again, I can't believe we're actually talking about them, but this is big. I mean, this in itself puts the nail in that coffin. Joel (16m 32s): This is a multimillion dollar company that has people in charge of making sure this stuff doesn't happen and it did. And it's really, really bad. So this is an ongoing story, but it seems to be the state of state of affairs at CareerBuilder that the dumpster fire rages on. Chad (16m 48s): Well, let's jump into something more positive. We saw a press release that iCIMS won and HR tech award this week. And I, you know, I dove into it, I don't think that that's really that much of a big story. Although the award was around, they're snuggling up to Microsoft and remember Microsoft has a failed applicant tracking system in Talent 365, LinkedIn needs and enterprise tech strategy for talent. Chad (17m 18s): iCIMS has a new CEO, new coat of paint with the new items, branding and messaging. What does this feel like for you? Joel (17m 24s): Yeah. Well, first of all, you know, anytime you win quote, top HR product of the year, it's always a nice thing to have, but yeah, this, this integration of Microsoft and teams just sort of reeks of, I don't know, a few, if you're into baseball analogies of relationships, I mean, they're turning second at this point and headed to third. Michael Willzack... Chad (17m 46s): Wilcheck Joel (17m 48s): Chief Strategy Officer at iCIMS in the release. Yeah, that guy, he said, quote "this partnership is based on a shared desire to transform the workplace, reinvent the hiring team experience and better embed HR into the workflow, workflow of work, sorry, uniting the communication and collaboration capabilities of Microsoft's apps with the power of the iCIMS Talent Cloud accelerates hiring and enables employers to fill open roles faster and with fewer hurdles." So there's some definite heavy petting that's going on here. Joel (18m 19s): And yeah, I don't think that either one of us is going to be shocked when we get the announcement that Microsoft has acquired iCIMS. Chad (18m 27s): Well and all over LinkedIn over the past, I don't know, a few months, we're seeing people try to compare Zoom to Teams, which one is better, you know, which one should I use? And it's pretty simple. I mean, Zoom plus Slack equals Teams and iCIMS is integrated into Teams. We're in a remote situation. Teams is amazing from a productivity standpoint. And again, trying to, trying to leverage video, trying to leverage Slack type of an environment, automated interview scheduling, receive instant feedback within Teams without having to manually request that information from hiring managers and interviewers, improve candidate experience with self scheduling capabilities, collaboration with teams to better integrate HR into the workflow. Chad (19m 19s): So we talked about, a few months ago, when AI for jobs integrated with Salesforce, and we said, that's big. And we had a bunch of people in the industry say, it's not a big deal. It is! When you can actually get into this kind of scale. And in iCIMS has scale in themselves. So this is a much larger story than that one. But when I, since has this kind of tech in scale and ability and the opportunity to prospectively fill a huge gap that LinkedIn and a Microsoft can't fill, tell me this isn't fucking big? Joel (19m 55s): By the way, you mentioned the rebranding, which I don't think you should discount for the mere fact that it's, iCIMS talent cloud. Now, if you were in the dating world, not that you are, but if you really like blonde, right, and a girl wanted to get your attention, she would sort of highlight that I'm blonde. Right? So to me, iCIMS as sort of saying like, Hey cloud, because Microsoft is all about cloud as is everybody else. So Microsoft, when they're able to say we've acquired iCIMS, most people wouldn't know what the hell iCIMS was, but now they can say iCIMS Talent Cloud, which looks a lot better to shareholders and might just boost that share prices. Chad (20m 35s): Well, and don't forget, Microsoft has been using iCIMS for years as their applicant tracking system. So yes, Microsoft's talent acquisition team and recruiters do not use talent 365. They use iCIMS and they have been for years. So I think again, you know, you talked about Mike Wilcheck. That dude is amazing and he's on the MNA side on the obviously acquisition side of the house, but also targets for prospectively being acquired, I'm sure. Chad (21m 8s): This is getting gussied up, going to the gym, getting ready for that date. Joel (21m 14s): By the way, LinkedIn has an ATS. I guess they're like not all that interested in what they're doing. Chad (-): Yeah, Not Enterprise. Joel (21m 18s): All right. Let's take a break and we'll come back and talk about .jobs. Jesus Jobvite (21m 26s): Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com. Joel (21m 53s): Do you have we got, we got a press release, just came across the wire. It looks like Beavis and Butthead will now be in charge of CareerBuilder because they can do a better job than what's going on right now. Chad (22m 3s): That's a step up. That's a step up. So you saw an article this week and you sent it my way and it was about .jobs. So what, what, what got you interested in that? Joel (22m 14s): Well, so you and I both have history here, Employ Media who launched .jobs back in '05,'06, somewhere around there, Cleveland based company. I was actually in some of the early meetings, as far as what we're going to do and who should, how should we market this thing? I was helping them with some SEO stuff at the time, and they've taken quite an evolution throughout the last 15 years or so of their, of their existence. And they started out as simply, Hey, we're partnered with Sherm. We're gonna, we're going to sell the .jobs domain to companies that are sort of legitimate businesses, have HR departments, et cetera, that evolved into partnering with, with your old year old organization, Direct Employers to build out 40,000, I think domains, of course, that got everybody pissed off and the job board space. Joel (22m 59s): And I can remember you at at an event that a Weddell put on way back in the day about San Diego, but the .jobs business model. And then I've, I've sorta lost touch since then. I know they're there. They were still selling.jobs. And I know direct employers, they were doing career sites, but I've sort of lost touch since then. And then a listener sent us this story from, I guess, a domain new site. I mean, it wasn't even an employment site talking about how.jobs and their agreement with employment or Direct Employers. Joel (23m 29s): Like there was a lawsuit it's been settled. We know Recruit Rooster was launched, which is sorta what the .jobs partnership was about. And that's been, that's been eliminated or terminated. So now it looks like Dodd jobs is just gonna like do sort of wholesale. Anybody can get it auction, you know, GoDaddy by .jobs for whatever, whatever you want, which is usually what happens with domains. So that was the story. You still have a pretty close relationship or I guess some connection there. Joel (24m 2s): So you might have some insight as well. What have you heard? Or whether on or off the record? Chad (24m 7s): Yeah. I don't see them doing any type of auctions. I don't see that happening anytime soon. If they did I think it'd be great, but I just don't see Employee Media doing that. They can. It's in their agreement. They actually went to court against I can to be able to make it happen. And so they can do it. They just they're, they're just deciding not to. When you say Joel (24m 30s): The auction, you mean they're not going, they won't make .jobs available to anybody. Chad (24m 34s): Yeah. Not just anybody. Yeah, they there's. Okay. So think of it this way: edu is very restrictive in how you get an .edu and .com is not restrictive at all. Anybody can have a fucking .com. .jobs lands in about the middle. There are some restrictions, but it's not as tight as .edu, and it's not as loose as .com. So you have to meet the criteria you can always request to have a.jobs domain, but it doesn't mean that you're going to get it. Joel (25m 3s): They go in and sort of, there's a manual process of like, who are you? And does this make sense? Are your, are you a legitimate organization? And then they release it if they deem necessary, Chad (25m 14s): It's to be a trusted space on the internet, they don't just want anybody having one of their domains. They want to make sure that they're... Joel (25m 22s): The original idea from what, what you understand. Chad (25m 26s): I don't think any of that's changed at all. And people actually buying it versus what we did at Direct Employers in concert of putting tech underneath the domains and doing that with Employing Media. So I don't think any of that's changed. I do think that there is an opportunity. We talked about LinkedIn a little bit earlier, and I was thinking, you know, who has the brand power and money to prospectively leverage something like this? And I would think of LinkedIn and Microsoft cause being is pretty much worthless compared to Google, what could Bing, do to be able to do something different, to be able to try to gain market, share away from Google and how could LinkedIn use these, these different domains to do the same kind of thing? Chad (26m 12s): So I think that type of brand power could do something, but you know, something that is, you know, kind of like lower shelf, like direct employers, it was a great idea. It was a great concept. It was fun! It was great experiment, but just not enough power. Joel (26m 26s): Yeah. Bing has Bing for jobs, but it's all LinkedIn postings. So they actually do, do it, but it doesn't have a broad reach of, you know, value to people. So the numbers around this, I didn't under, I didn't know. So the story that was shared about the domain said basically like they had sold 8,000. Yeah. Chad (26m 46s): I think it was in 2010. That was what the numbers were. Joel (26m 50s): I'm assuming it's grown over the years. Let's hope for their sake. So it's about $200 a year to have one of these. So, I mean, it's around a $2 million a year business, if that's what the business is. I mean, that's nothing to sneeze at. It's obviously not.io or something, but it's a living. So yeah. So we'll be watching this space carefully. Th the players that were there then are still there. So the relationship is there. Hopefully they'll, they'll keep us up to date on what's going on and maybe come on the show sometime and tell us what's going on. Chad (27m 24s): Yeah. I think, again, if there's a big brand out there that wants to try to try to get outside of the box and leverage an entire top level domain that has the money and the wherewithal and the actual engagement that the candidates and the engagement, there could be some cool stuff that happens, but it, I think it's a long shot. Joel (27m 44s): They have dot employee as well. Don't they? Chad (27m 46s): I can't remember. Joel (27m 47s): There's a .careers, which I don't think is them. So there's the competing. And I want to say they bought like a real estate investor or real estate centered domain. So this is kind of their business. So it makes sense that they would sort of stay in that lane, keep in touch .jobs were watching. Oh, you know what? I love after a good dinner Chad. Chad (28m 6s): I like a good Oreo/ Joel (28m 8s): Oreo cookies. And you're loving their new ad campaign. Chad (28m 11s): Yeah. So everybody stick around here. This is a, this is about employer branding. Joel (28m 18s): Go around, grab a glass of milk and an Oreo, everybody. Chad (28m 19s): Yeah. It's going to, it's going to be there. So this is a three minute video, which tells a story and ends up with a message the Oreo brand obviously embraces. So you watched it, you give me a kind of like your critique of the video. Joel (28m 34s): Yeah. So it's a couple of young ladies I'm going to say in their twenties, they pull up in, in the car, visiting, visiting parents from college or wherever they're living. They see mom, Hey, mom how's it going? Mom, gives hugs. They come in, dad's there, dad's a little more stoic, a little more, you know, he's sort of suspicious or, or hesitant to embrace the situation. I guess he sees over the course of the commercial. Like these two women really love each other. Joel (29m 6s): They're good friends, they're affectionate. And over the time he unfreezes right. He thaws out, he sees a scene where the neighbor sees the two girls being affectionate and sort of gives them, you know, a stare, like not approving whatsoever. And then at the end, the father paints the, what used to be a white picket fence, which I think is really sort of symbolic of the 1950s, you know, white picket fence takes the fence. He, he paints the fence into a rainbow, a shade of multi-colors. Joel (29m 40s): The daughter comes out, sees it, it's warm. They hug, I love you. And then the girlfriend, hugs the dad too, which is really cool. And he obviously is loving that whole moment. And then it's like really nice warm and fuzzy Oreo cookie, dah, dah, dah. And so not only is it commercial grade, but you love it from a DNI perspective or recruitment perspective. And I agree with that as well. Chad (30m 3s): I had somebody ask me, why are they using this message to sell cookies? And, you know, I that's a great question, but I don't think that's the right question, because I believe this is bigger than just cookies. And think, of Nike getting behind Kap, you know, were, were they doing it to sell shoes or declare who they are? Apparently they got both because that's what happened. They did declare who they were, and they did sell a shitload of sneakers. Now, step away from the product for a second. Chad (30m 35s): Think about this from a talent perspective, if you see a commercial and you do not align with those viewpoints, you more than likely will apply for the job at Oreo. And if you do align with the message, you'll probably be more likely. So remember, this message is about the people behind the cookies and behind the brand. It's what they believe in. It's the purpose. There are hundreds of other cookies that are out there, right? What makes Oreo different? Why buy a fucking Oreo, right? Chad (31m 7s): They're giving you a reason. And remember buying a package of cookies is just transactional. It doesn't really mean much, but when you're applying for a job, you're saying, I'm going to give you my blood, sweat and tears, 40 hours a week, possibly weekends. That's not a snap decision. That's where a message like this means something. And as a brand, we have to recognize the power that these types of messages bring, because it molds our workforce composition and our culture. Chad (31m 39s): So back to the question of how does this help you sell cookies? That's not the point. Joel (31m 43s): You know, to me, it echoes you. And I love this trend. And we talked about Patagonia, I think recently, Airbnb. And I mean, this is certainly hot, but this was something you and I talked about, I want to say three, four years ago, when the, the Audi commercial came out with the soapbox Derby and daughter, girls, I'm gonna get choked up talking about it, but the daughter and the soapbox Derby racing, the boys and the father saying, you know, what am I supposed to tell her that she can't compete? That she's not as good and da, da, and then they leave the Derby and the Audi. Joel (32m 17s): So that was, that was many years ago. Audi was sorta, Audi was sort of ahead of the curve, but this still echoes in that same vein. And you and I both love this, this sort of this ad campaign, this strategy, and you have to be able to say goodbye to five to 10% of your customers to be able to be embraced by the 90% we talked about NASCAR, right? Chad (32m 40s): And the Confederate flag, you think NASCAR knew, you know, they knew they were going to lose some people by a decision, but they also knew they're going to be embraced by a bigger number. And they're going to be on the right side of history. And I think brands are getting a good, got the memo and this is another example, a great example in this case of Oreo, really getting on board, the right side of history. Joel (33m 27s): Yeah. It's, it's very simple people. We have to stand for something. We can't be milk toast. We can't be, you know, middle of the road. We have to stand for something. And there's nothing wrong with that in HR and in talent, we have, have not wanted to pick a side and it's okay to be able to pick the sides. It's who you are. It's what a culture is. So you have to stand for something. And that's exactly what Oreo did. Chad (33m 29s): If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything, JobAdX (34m 48s): Your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at JobAdX.com. That's JobAdX.com. Chad (34m 49s): All right, we're going to play a game. Some, some companies got money. I'm going to give you the name and the description, and you're going to buy or sell. Are we good? Joel (34m 58s): Do we have a bell for this? I feel like I'm on a Firing Squad. Bells (35m 1s): Ding, ding, ding Chad (35m 23s): There we go. All right. Number one. JobGet gets 2.1 million in funding. JobGet leverages AI matching technology to bring together qualified hourly job seekers with nearby businesses. Looking to hire employers use the in app messaging and video chat features to schedule interviews in real time buy or sell? Joel (-): Sell. Chad (35m 25s): All right. Joel (35m 28s): You don't want me to say why? So I'll just say sell. Chad (35m 51s): Winning Temp gets 15.1 million euros in funding, Winning Temps, AI and science based employment engagement platform has become a mainstay for companies attempting to ensure morale is maintained during a time of remote working. Buy or sell? Joel (-): Buy. Chad (36m 21s): Whooo, that's a lot of money. I'm going to sell. Claire gets 4.5 million in seed funding. Yes. Seed funding. Claire in early stage FinTech company based in New York city wants America's 82 million hourly workers and 57 million gig workers to get paid as quickly as Uber pays their drivers today, instantly. Buy or sell. Joel (-): Buy, buy, buy. Chad (36m 22s): I would buy that one big time. No question. Joel (36m 25s): Is that the game? Chad (36m 25s): That's the game. Joel (36m 25s): All right. Cool. That was easy. Well, let's talk about beat downs. And in this godawful show. Florida is going to Florida, everybody. So a story, sorry, out of Florida this week, a dude who owns a Florida barbecue, got a bad review on Yelp, a couple bad reviews, and then physically attack this dude, allegedly, this is all allegedly, but it probably happened it's Florida. So he goes, and he beats this dude down a 25 year old, who ended up being, they found out was the son of the, the barbecue owner's girlfriend. Joel (37m 5s): So he literally goes to this house because of these reviews. And he goes, he apparently the dude, the dude that he attacked, they were in the street like running around. He attacked him, tackled him, the cops show up and then take him, take him away. The story was quote, "he shoved his way past the door and started to chase the victim around in the road." Yeah. This is actually in the news. Eventually after the victim tripped and fell to the ground, Aaron stopped. He jumped on top of him and struck him several times as the victim covered his face and his arms. Joel (37m 38s): So basically it sounds like there was a level lover's quarrel. The woman's son said F this guy, I'm going to deep six his business with bad Yelp reviews. The Yelp reviews were pretty classic. Yeah, Chad (37m 50s): Shit, barbecue and verbally assaulting people. It was pretty much, Joel (37m 55s): Yeah. I wouldn't call this barbecue. Hell I wouldn't even feed it to my dog. Maybe the ownership spend less time threatening customers and more time learning to cook properly. Another one star review. He allegedly left was, worst customer service in Florida. Not a great idea to threaten your customers due to you, serving garbage barbecue. A hell of a story there in Florida. My question is, what the hell do you have to do in Florida to get arrested? Because this guy committed some other crime before this and got out on a misdemeanor, with a fine of $575. Joel (38m 29s): And he apparently took a wooden board to strike a vehicle of this woman that he was dating and threatened her. And then he's probably going to get out on this with just a warning. So you got to do some real bad shit in Florida to get arrested, apparently. Chad (38m 46s): Dude, it's 2020. I know none of this shit surprises me at all. Joel (38m 51s): It is 2020 for sure. It's a fucking horror show everybody. Chad (-): We Out. Joel (-): We Out. OUTRO (39m 51s): Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast, with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anyhoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

Why does Corp America hate mom? I mean mom's are the best but they usually get the short end of the stick when it comes to career advancement. Then COVID comes along and we all start to understand the trials and tribulations of balancing a house, work, and life much like working mothers have since... FOREVER. Mom's already had cred, but this is a new kind of cred complete with a new world type of balance, management, and leadership. Plus a need for equal hiring practices and top talent... Enter The Mom Project who hopes to invigorate and balance the market. The Chad and Cheese have a chat with CEO and founder Allison Robinson to check on the current state of moms in the workforce, the impact of COVID, governments role and much more. Enjoy this groove filled podcast provided by Sovren. AI so human you'll eat that robot's fresh baked cookies and just as sleep tight... PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Sovren (1s): Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now based on that technology come Sovren's intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job. Sovren (32s): And just as importantly, the jobs fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Intro (44s): Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel (1m 4s): All right. All right. All right. What's up everybody? This is Joel Cheesman, co-host of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. And I am joined as always by Mr. Chad Sowash. Chad, how are you? Chad (1m 41s): I'm doing great, man. Hello. Joel (1m 43s): And today we're giddy. I think we're giddy and smitten too. Welcome Allison Robinson. Easy for me to say. CEO and founder of The Mom Project. Has there been a more friendly company name than The Mom Project? I already have visions of cookies and a warm blanket before I start the interview process. Chad (1m 41s): That's totally sexist. I can make cookies. Joel (1m 45s): I have already offended our guest and she hasn't said one word. That is just awful. Chad (1m 50s): You offended me, sir. You offended me. Joel (1m 54s): Sorry, mom. Allison, welcome to the show if you're still there. Allison (1m 56s): Yeah, it's great to be here. Joel (1m 58s): Good. Chad (1m 59s): Excellent. I would jump into this real quick. You're in Cincinnati now, and you spent some time in Boston and Cincinnati. You currently live in Chicago, but you spent seven years at P&G, at Procter & Gamble. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Tell us a little bit about that. And then, if you could, just kind of flow right into how The Mom Project came about and WerkLabs. Allison (2m 28s): Yeah, absolutely. I was actually at P&G a bit longer. Allison (3m 27s): I interned with them for two years while still in school, and then joined the company full-time when I graduated in June 2009. And it was a really fun ride there. I started out in sales. My first job there was actually in Charlotte, North Carolina, servicing one of our retail customers down there, Harris Teeter. I love that job. I loved getting to know customers, really learning how to sell. From there I moved to Boston, until finally making it back to Cincinnati, where I had the opportunity to work on the Pampers innovation team for North America, which is where I really became so fascinated by the mom segment. And in that job, I was getting to spend a lot of time in homes with moms, understanding how technology was changing consumer behavior. Chad (3m 35s): Pampers innovation. I can't even start to understand what the hell that means. What does that actually mean? What's the mission of Pampers innovation? Joel (3m 39s): We'll know in about 20 years, Chad. Allison (5m 8s): If you have used diapers and purchased the category in a while, they're not fully idiot proof yet. Sometimes they still leak. So we had to continue making that core product better. And also at P&G Innovations spans beyond product to also what we call commercial innovation, so how are we reaching consumers in new ways, as well as product innovation. I oversaw some interesting work during my time there. We were looking at moving from corrugated boxes to bags to be more eco-friendly. So innovation kind of spanned the gamut between product, consumer packaging, etc. It was a really fun job and I really just became so inspired by moms. I saw these moms wake up at four in the morning to put themselves through online schooling, to be able to build a better future for their families. We all love our moms, right? And I went on maternity leave from that job. I had my son, Asher, who just turned five, and read that over 40% of American women leave the workforce after becoming moms. To me I saw that you've got this incredible pool of amazing women who want to keep working, but priorities shift and work needs to look a little bit different. Chad (5m 16s): So that was 40%, they permanently leave the workforce or they leave the workforce for like a span of three to five years? Allison (5m 42s): Exactly. I believe that specific stat for a period of time, which could be up to five or so years. As a new mom myself I was really looking for a product like The Mom Project that could help me find work that was really compatible with family. And so very much born out of my own need and desire to have something like this that existed. Joel (5m 54s): How did it start? Talk us through the early days of the company. I think you're around four or five years old if I read that right. And you guys did some money raising and all that good stuff. Talk us through the early days to now. Allison (7m 41s): My son literally just turned five last month. The company, I started working on it when he was two, three months old. And it was nothing fancy at all. I was just sort of doing some market research. I understood why this was a need for moms, but really I knew for the company to be a business it had to work for companies. I did a lot of kind of market research. I started talking to anybody who would speak with me, small business owners particularly, to say, "Hey, if you could tap into this highly skilled workforce that wants to work flexibly, but in return can do great things for you, is that of interest?" And it all came back pretty confirmatory. Kind of my first big project was getting a site up and running. I hired an agency out of New York. They built me a site. And when we launched we actually had the Chicago Tribune featured us on the front page of their business section before I was like prepared. And so it just feels like we've been sort of building the plane as we're flying it for the last five years. My husband actually joined me full time as things were really taking off, but I really struggled to raise financial capital early on. So he, and I really put everything into the business because we saw what a big opportunity it was in front of us. So we kind of self-funded, bootstrapped it for the first couple of years, then decided to bring on some outside capital in 2018. And then I've gone on to raise both in series A and series B round. Every year has looked so different. It's been really fun. Joel (7m 43s): A little over 35 million, correct? Allison (7m 47s): 35 million. Joel (7m 51s): That's a chunk of change. Good for you. Allison (7m 51s): The growth that we've seen in our customers is because moms are that exceptional. And so it's been really fun to kind of figure out how to make it work for these large enterprise organizations and small businesses. But every year has felt so different, but like in the best types of ways. Chad (8m 38s): On the website it says, connecting our community of 300,000 talented women with jobs that employers that respect work and life integration. Now before COVID this was the big topic. Now it's turned into a standard discussion for everyone. Really, who knew balancing kids and work would be such a big deal, right? Mediocre white guys, it wasn't a problem for them. Are moms accumulating major cred now during this time for this experience? Allison (9m 39s): I think there's more of an acknowledgement. Certainly moms have always understood how hard this is, but I do think men are seeing it. They're at home. And so I think that there is recognition for how hard it is to be a working mom, a working parent. And so I'm starting to see a lot more compassion in the workplace and kind of more acknowledgement of all the life that happens outside of work. So I do think moms are getting more credit. Certainly not as much as I think they deserve, and in some ways it's just been so challenging with a pandemic. Women have been disproportionally impacted by job losses from the pandemic. We're in the midst of a childcare crisis, a health care crisis. So it feels like things actually are getting harder, but there is a bit more sympathy or empathy if you will. Chad (9m 39s): Will that empathy actually turn into action and outcomes when we're talking about hiring from a lot of these major brands who are spending billions of dollars on diversity and inclusion training? There's a lot of training happening, but are we seeing the outcomes from this? Allison (10m 50s): I think we have a long way to go. I do. In the US, only about 8% of the Fortune 500 CEOs are women. So I think after a period of major boom in terms of women's advancement in the workplace in the '70s, the '80s, things started to really taper off in the '90s. And actually the overall female labor participation rate has been stagnating since. So I think not too many more women are in the workplace. And then the ones that stay are certainly not advancing at the levels that we'd like. If you look at the entry level there's near gender parity. But as we look at those manager ranks, director ranks, VP ranks, executive ranks, women are still not elevating. Chad (11m 8s): Are we thinking that that's because of the whole mommy tracking scenario? Because as soon as they're out of the workforce for a year, two years, three years, they're automatically mommy tracked instead. So therefore they can't meet their peers, their male peers, because a they never left the workforce. Allison (11m 8s): I certainly think that that's one of the challenges for sure. I think whether it's women who leave the workforce and are trying to get back, that's really challenging. Also we lack things like federal paid family leave. Allison (12m 9s): childcare is super, super expensive in the US, more costly than college. So it often feels like the odds are against you when it comes to having a career and a family. And then there's a lot of other, just kind of gender related, maybe not parenting related issues that women face. There's a real lack of role models, right? I spoke about the 8%, but when you don't see people in leadership positions that look like you it gives one self doubt that they can get there. That's something that I struggle with. And so I think why women have not made more progress, there's a lot of contributing factors, but those are just a couple of them. Chad (12m 8s): So what are you guys doing to help in that initiative? Because you're 100% right. When 7.6% of the fortune 500 are females, and the other shocking stat, there are only three black CEOs, and they're all male. There are no black female CEOs. So what can the mom project do to be able to press forward to try to drive parity? Allison (14m 6s): Our goal is to really allow more women to stay or reengage with the workforce. So whether that looks like helping a woman get back to work and land a really great role after she's taken some time away, we know that can be a really intimidating experience, and being her trusted partner and being able to do that. Or for new moms who we'd love to keep them in the workforce, maybe they can't keep grinding out a 60, 70-hour schedule, but maybe they want to move part time, or just a job with a shorter commute. So for us it's really connecting her with the right opportunity for where she's at in her life that will fulfill her professionally and personally. And then for the companies it's bringing in this incredible talent pool, as well as helping companies retain the talent that they already have. Earlier this year we acquired a company out of New York called Werk, and we merged it with the research and insights division that we had already been running. It's led by an incredible woman, Dr. Pam Cohen. And so that's called WerkLabs. So there's a fair amount of advisory work that we do with companies to get their cultures ready to support diverse populations, including parents, including minorities. So that's been really cool. We not only want to connect women with the right work opportunities, but we want to send them into companies and cultures where we know that they can really thrive. Joel (14m 6s): You mentioned role models. And I got to ask about Serena, which I think was one of the news items that Chad and I sort of grabbed on to. That's a huge win. How did that come about? What is Serena doing for you guys? Are they going to be more celebrity endorsements at the company? Is that something you guys want to do? Allison (15m 28s): Yeah. Serena is so amazing. To me, as I think about role models for working moms, she's it. She is just so honest about who she is as an athlete, as a mother, and she's just so forward with it. And I just find that to be so, so refreshing. I had the opportunity to bring Serena on. Actually her husband, Alexis, one of the founding partners of Initialized Capital, who led our series A round. He was able to help make some introductions. And this is an area that she's really passionate about, supporting working moms. We're really excited to have her be a strategic advisor to the company. She's amazing. As we think about the future, how do we align with other leaders, whether that be athletes or other public figures who we think really represent the values of The Mom Project. Joel (15m 59s): So we're seeing this trend sort of become popularized. We've had the CEO of Fairygodboss on the show for example. I know InHerSight is another one that's sort of focused on women. Do you guys differentiate yourself in a certain way from those other sites? I mean, I know they're more of review sites, which I don't think your site has reviews, but you can correct me on that if I'm wrong. I'm just curious on how you guys are different, how you set yourself apart from some of the other female initiatives that are out there, or is it just mothers that's part of the uniqueness? Allison (15m 59s): I think if you were to look at us and how we fit into the ecosystem, we're really the experts on hiring women and mothers. It's interesting, people sometimes think of this as a niche segment, which I laugh at because 86% of women will become moms by age 44. So it is the vast, vast majority of the experienced female talent pool. So we're really focused on building and connecting moms with, with economic opportunity and really unlocking this, in my opinion, dormant strength in our economy. Allison (16m 39s): I think what also makes us a bit different is really kind of the focus that we have on original research and insights. That was an area that I felt really early on had to be kind of critical to our value proposition with customers. It wouldn't be enough for them to just kind of view Mom Project as a hiring partner, but really kind of a more strategic partner on moving the needle on gender diversity. Allison (17m 14s): Those are a couple of ways that we're different. I think as we look longer term, we're really excited about this community of moms that we're building. We actually launched a feature a few weeks ago in beta. Colleen is our chief community officer, and she says that, which I think is so smart, that the next generation of user generated content will be user generated support, right? So we've got all 300,000 women amongst our digital community that want to support one another. So we're really excited to explore that further as we think about kind of long-term plans for the mom project. Chad (18m 48s): So talking about 300,000 mothers providing support into a system, this pretty right for Alexis over at Reddit to pour more money into it. But that being said, you talk about being a hiring partner. Diversity is a big talking point for major organizations right now, but we we've heard this s**t all before and numbers don't lie. We've talked about there are only 38 female CEOs. We're still seeing at the leadership level that there there's not parity, right? So there's a lot of smoke and mirrors. There's a lot of money being thrown at training and things that don't drive outcomes. What are you guys doing to be able to help companies drive outcomes. And if I was a company and I wanted to be able to become a part of The Mom Project today how would you start that, and how could you help them with some of those outcomes in hiring moms? Allison (21m 22s): I think everybody's looking for the silver bullet, and the truth is it's the hard work, right? Like day in and day out building a really strong culture where employees are engaged, they're happy. And that takes time. That takes years. And so when we speak with a company that's... and some are very honest with us. They say, "Look, I'm not ready to partner with you because, frankly, the women that we would hire would not be set up for success." So they actually want to engage with us through WerkLabs, through our research and insights division. And so the area of focus there is really around gaining employee perspectives. So Pam who runs it, she is a social psychologist. Her background was really in research and in qualitative research. So we do a thorough assessment. We've talked to typically 50 up to a hundred people within the organization to really get a clear understanding on what are the areas that the company is doing well when it comes to topics like D&I, culture, what's not going well. And she's able to help companies understand the most important investments that they can move on to make meaningful progress. And we can segment that by company size, employee population, maybe women in marketing are really thriving and advancing to that leadership track what's happening over here in engineering. So the segmentation on that gets really interesting and it gets very prescriptive. That's all drawn from the qualitative research. And then we test it empirically through a survey that we typically field across the organization. So that really serves as the playbook on how we can partner with companies to make progress and understanding what those opportunities are. Beyond that we love partnering with our customers. Many of our customers are doing a great job when it comes to supporting women and moms. We love joining them for their ERGs, sharing our research right now. Particularly every CEO is kind of thinking about what more can I be doing to support parents who for many who have kids at home trying to do online learning, manage a full time workload, they're looking to us for the answers. I think intent is high. It really comes down to the how. Chad (22m 35s): Yeah, that's the big key, right? The World Economic Forum states that it's going to take about 257 years to actually reach pay equity. There's no way in hell we can wait that long for hiring equity. The big question for me, and I'm all about how we build talent to be able to pipeline into corporate America today, because we have way too many skills gaps as it is. What can the WerkLab or The Mom Project actually do, or are you doing to be able to identify the gaps that are out there and fill them with females? There's a new Google certificate program that's out there today to help with many different levels, I guess you could say, of certifications where you don't need a four year degree, or maybe if you have one that's great. This is just a quicker way to actually get involved. Are you working with any companies like the Googles or maybe Udemys or things like that to help your constituents get to where they need to be, and that's into a job? Allison (23m 51s): That's spot on. And it's something that I think a lot about, and how do we get women really in emerging, the highest paying fields like technology, where we know that they're vastly underrepresented today. Only about 25% of computer programmers are women. So upskilling is certainly a priority of ours. We have partnerships with some rescaling organizations, including Lambda. I'm a huge fan of what they're doing. We're actually right now kicking off a major initiative through our 501(c)(3) where we're going to grant 10,000 free scholarships for upskilling certificates over the next three years, so Google certificates, Salesforce. These certificates have meaningful, meaningful impact on people's earning potential. So we're really focused on getting those in the hands of women of color. We believe that that's so necessary. We see how much women are struggling overall coming out of the pandemic, but particularly women of color who are more likely to be single moms. So I couldn't agree more, upskilling is so, so critical. Joel (24m 21s): Allison, I don't know if you've heard, but there's an election this year. And I'm curious, what role government plays in this initiative? You mentioned community on the site. Do you guys sort of support voter registration initiatives, or is there goals to maybe lobby Congress in the future from The Mom Project? Talk about the political government aspect of what you guys do or might be doing in the future. Allison (24m 21s): Yeah. I think policy plays a really important role in the work that we do. Some areas in particular that you can find me kind of campaigning for our federal paid family leave available to all American workers, and the other key one is childcare subsidies. Allison (24m 53s): So many women leave the workforce too soon because they're looking at the difference between their take home earnings and the cost to put their child through daycare. And they're saying this math doesn't make sense. So I really would love to see a nationally funded preschool program. I think that is probably the single biggest thing we can do to really move the needle on women workforce participation. Chad (25m 14s): Building a better workplace where girls don't have to decide between work and family, and I actually extracted that from one of your videos. I have two daughters, both are in college. Joel has one as well. And we don't want to see our girls get into a mommy track version of life, unless they want to themselves. Chad (25m 59s): Because it seems not a choice at this at this point. You're either going to have kids and be mommy tracked, but you can't continue "to stay on the same line as your peers." As fathers, how can we help guide our daughters to hopefully stay out of that, but still have kids? Allison (26m 1s): I love that question so much. I think the biggest thing you can do for your daughters is be advocating today for workplace changes that will allow that. Allison (27m 10s): I spoke with someone yesterday and he told me he really connected with what we were doing because he had a mother who her career was really taking off as he was a child. And she stepped back, and it was really hard for her to get back in. His mother's sister decided to never have children because they were so fearful of what that would mean for their career. So that tension is so real. Things like remote work, paid family leave, things that make that tension reduced I think is the biggest thing that we can do as leaders to prepare the next generation for a better workplace where they really can have that more fulfilled, well-rounded goals, whether that means family or working, working or not working, really empowering that choice. Joel (27m 9s): When I think about initiatives like this, I always sort of steer to the money or the business case. Joel (27m 47s): It's hard for me to still believe when you're looking at majority of valedictorians are girls, most of our college graduates now are females. And the business case seems obvious to me. What are you seeing as the major hurdle in getting this initiative off the ground? And I guess if I were a company sort of on the fence of whether I should engage with mothers, what would you tell that company to get them off the fence? Allison (29m 14s): Hiring and advancing, retaining women and mothers is absolutely good for business. There's a lot of data that supports that gender diverse teams outperform their more homogenous peers. I love kind of taking a look at countries that have been led by women through the pandemic, look at how they fared compared to ones led by men. I call it the female advantage. All of the data is there. We actually conducted some research of our own to look at specifically why moms make great coworkers and colleagues. We found that when, when moms are in roles of management they drive towards a more equitable, a more productive, and a more engaged workplace. All of it's there. So I think you just have to ask yourself why not. why am I not able to retain these incredible women? Really take a look at your culture and figure out what's driving women out and make an effort to hire moms. Moms are also very ethnically diverse. It's interesting. Over two-thirds of new moms in the US are multicultural. So not only is it great from a gender diversity perspective, it's also a great way to drive ethnic diversity as well. Chad (29m 28s): That's amazing Allison. We truly appreciate you taking the time. And for all of those companies or even partners that are out there who want to get involved with The Mom Project, where should they go, and how should they connect with you? Allison (29m 44s): Please come to our site, themomproject.com. Also feel free to reach out to me directly. It's allison.robinson@themomproject.com. And we'd love to hear from you. Chad (-): Excellent. Joel (-): Reds or Cubs, Allison? Allison (-): Reds. Joel (29m 51s): And with that, we out. Outro (29m 54s): Thank you for listening to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhow, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

While Chad is on vacation in Oregon and consuming enough craft brews to hydrate a frat party, Joel Cheesman is left to hold down the fort. Listeners won’t be disappointed. This week, we deliver an interview with the CEO of Wonderlic, Charlie Wonderlic. Football fans will recognize the Wonderlic name for the assessment tests they provide for the NFL during the combine. Employers will know the Wonderlic name for the assessment tests they offer, making sure employees are perfect fits for their organization. Charlie Wonderlic gives us his opinion on recruiting Millennials and how they’re different from previous generations like Gen X and Baby Boomers. And then we explore how do assessments play into employment brand. Charlie also goes in depth on his opinion on how automation affects employee testing and the jobs of the future, as well as how the current state of employment in America and the gig economy creates new challenges for employers. It’s a podcast you don’t want to miss. And as usual, visit our sponsors and throw mad paper in their direction, since they’re the only reason we get to do what we do … America’s Job Exchange, Wonscore by Wonderlic and Sovren. #Millenials #EmploymentBrand #Assessments #Wonderlic

Still a little hungover from the 4th of July holiday, the boys dive into Indeed’s walled garden against Google, wonder if old school job board SEO is dead and drop wisdom and perspective following the Jobg8 conference. Put on your big-boy pants and buckle-up. Also, we look at Canvas and why others aren’t on the text messaging bandwagon, asking are ATS’s next. And what podcast would be complete without news items discussing robots … this time, however, we’re talkin’ sex robots. You may need some protection on this week’s podcast. Enjoy. As usual, support the sponsors, including newbie Sovren and America’s Job Exchange and Wonscore by Wonderlic. We don’t exist without them, so go throw paper at them. #SexRobots #AI #Indeed #Google #Canvas #SEO

Where’s Cheese? Chad brings recruiting industry veteran and America’s Job Exchange GM Bill Fanning to the mic while Joel takes a much-needed vacation. Chad takes aim at Bill with questions like – What the Hell is going on in this crazy AI/Google shiny object market? Is AJE playing stubborn (like Indeed) and fighting Google or are you bringing the big G in real close? Should Careerbuilder be anxious about a 1/2 price clearance sale? and last but not least does anyone really care about compliance? Enjoy, and make sure you visit our sponsors, America’s Job Exchange, Nexxt and Wonscore by Wonderlic. #BillFanning #Careerbuilder #Compliance #AI #AJE #Indeed #Google

The boys headed down the The Big Easy this week for a live podcast at the Jobg8 Job Board Summit. As usual, they weren’t so “easy” with the commentary on CareerBuilder, who is valued at $500 million, instead of the $1 billion-plus price tag originally touted. They also didn’t hold back their criticism of Beyond, who just changed their name to Nexxt. (Pretty sure some Nexxt employees in the front row were throwing peanuts at us when we weren’t looking.) And, of course, what show would be complete without commentary on all-things-Google? This time, however, there was feedback from job boards owners on early results on traffic. It’s back to the future, as the show veered toward how Indeed had a similar strategy 10 years ago. Enjoy, and, as always, support our sponsors. This thing crashes and burns without them: America’s Job Exchange, Beyond.com/cheddar, er, Nexxt? and Wonscore by Wonderlic.com/cheddar. #RoadShow #Jobg8 #NewOrleans #Nexxt #Google #GoogleJobsAPI #Careerbuilder #LIVE

What started out as a slow week certainly turned up as time passed. Entelo received $20 million in funding, and the boys discuss what’s really behind all the money flowing into A.I. Can you say “land grab”? Amazon, yes, that Amazon is rumored to be bidding on Slack to the tune of $9 billion. That’s with a “b” folks. McDonald’s is looking to hire 250,000 employees this season in the U.S. and are going to rely on Snapchat to fill a few of those positions. The bet is sure to make competitors stand-up and take notice. Snaplications are officially a thing now. Indeed has officially launched Career Pages in an attempt to appeal to small businesses, and at least one of the boys has a guess on where the company is going next. The show welcomes a new advertiser this week. A big welcome to Wonscore by Wonderlic. Check ’em out (there’s an exclusive deal). And keep going to current sponsors America’s Job Exchange and Beyond.com/cheddar. #McDonalds #SnapChat #Amazon #Slack #Entelo #AI

It was a busy week. Economic megatrends continue to take hold. There are more job openings than ever before, and that has invigorated the gig economy and put recruiters in a strong sellers market for many positions. TaskRabbit, where anyone who will deliver your laundry or fix your door hinge can make cash, is growing into new markets. Kalo, a Silicon Valley darling, has investment cash and hope to be a “badass recruiting engine.” And times are so tight that the Secret Service is employing these types now. Tech continues to march on too. Workey and Clustree get buckets of cash, making this technology even hotter than ever before. There’s a new competitor in the chatbot landscape, which probably makes services like Mya and Olivia that much more valuable. Recruitics launches a solution that should’ve been introduce about 15 years ago. But, hey, better late than never, right? And make sure you visit our sponsors. We exist because of them: America’s Job Exchange and Beyond.com/cheddar. #Workey #Clustree #TaskRabbit #Kalo #Olivia #Mya #Recruitics

The boys were at TA Tech Summit in Minneapolis June 1, and did a live broadcast on all things Google … we’re talkin’ Google Cloud Jobs API, Google Hire and Google for Jobs. They even discussed ideas for what the future might look like. Special thanks to Peter Weddle and his son for having us and giving us a platform to expand the podcast listenership. As usual, visit our sponsors, because they make it all possible: America’s Job Exchange and Beyond.com/cheddar. #Roadshow #GoogleforJobs #GoogleHire #GoogleJobsAPI #Microsoft #LinkedIn #Facebook #LIVE

This week, the boys discuss a big discount in the acquisition price tag for CareerBuilder based on a Reuters report. Someone actually got a job opportunity, compliments of Snapchat. Here’s how. Then they revisit the garbage pile and give advice on how Talent.io might fix it’s junk status. Jibe goes all-in on Google for everything and they boys debate whether that’s a good thing. Should others get knee-deep in the search engine’s employment technology or say bye-bye-bye? An Indeed partnership with these guys is a move into getting an Indeed Apply button all around the Web, fending off Google’s onslaught … only one of the guys like the strategy. Listen to find out which one. Enjoy, and don’t forget to visit our sponsors, who make it all worthwhile: America’s Job Exchange, WebClipDrop (coupon code HIREDAILY2017) and Beyond.com/cheddar. #Careerbuilder #Talentio #SnapChat #Jibe #GoogleJobsAPI

It was a big week. The boys cover Google for Jobs officially launching and ask, “What the hell does Indeed do now? Talent.io gets investment cash, but one of the guys thinks it’s a hot, steaming pile of garbage. LinkedIn keep churning out the hits with new features to these two popular products. And there’s a differing of opinions on the death of job boards as Chad and Cheese look at two opposing business models. Enjoy, and don’t forget to visit our sponsors, who make it all worthwhile: America’s Job Exchange, WebClipDrop (coupon code HIREDAILY2017) and Beyond.com/cheddar. #GoogleforJobs #Indeed #LinkedIn #Talentio

Happy Mother’s Day Edition! This week, the boys are scared sh!#less at Microsoft’s workplace-of-the-future, Google makes a virtual reality play and disagreement ensues about its relevancy to recruitment, startup Mya’s A.I. recruitment play gets a shot of venture capital, the gig economy has ups and downs and CareerBuilder revenue is down for the quarter … queue the acquisition price discount. Enjoy and don’t forget to visit our sponsors. We can’t do it without them. Thanks America’s Job Exchange, WebClipDrop.io (coupon code HIREDAILY2017) and Beyond.com/cheddar. #Careerbuilder #Microsoft #Google #VR #Mya #AI #MothersDay

It was a big week. We finally have visual proof that Google is testing an Indeed-style job search, Ladders looks like it wants to become an online newspaper, Dice is getting rid of these sites, 84 Lumber returns with new recruitment ads (follow-ups to their controversial Super Bowl commercial) and job seekers seem to be pretty OK with this technology. Enjoy, and be sure to checkout our sponsors: America’s Job Exchange, WebClipDrop (coupon code HIREDAILY2017) and Beyond.com/Cheddar. #GoogleforJobs #84Lumber #Dice #TheLadders

This week, the boy wonders discuss LinkedIn’s ongoing ubiquity in news and finally catching up to Facebook and Twitter on this one key offering, eavesdropping on employees and gauging morale via Slack, Hipchat and others, more end of the world chatter from people much smarter than you, Yik Yak and the death of anonymity and another job boards aren’t dead story. The Chad and Cheese Podcast is proudly sponsored by America’s Job Exchange, WebClipDrop (use coupon code HIREDAILY2017) and Beyond.com/cheddar. #LinkedIn #Slack #Vervoe #YikYak #Hipchat

This week, the boys discuss how no one apparently wants to buy DICE and its portfolio of sites and what it could mean for CareerBuilder’s reported sale. Snapchat is in the news again with “Snapplications,” a way McDonald’s is generating candidates, and DIY advertising being unveiled soon. Completed is the latest startup to get thrown onto the steaming hot pile of garbage. New York City has made it illegal to do this … Facebook really hates these guys … and Smashfly partners with HiringSolved. Oh, and LinkedIn has updated its terms of service to make this a big no-no. Enjoy. #Dice #SnapChat #LinkedIn #Careerbuilder #Smashfly #HiringSolved #McDonalds

On Episode 6, the boys bookend the episode with Google, starting a discussion about the Google Jobs API and ending with the news this week that Google Hire is set to turn the ATS market upside down … and maybe the job search market too. Glassdoor is so over the court system in Texas. Beamery, Teamable and Crelate all get funding, but which one will be the most successful? And we love on Tim Sackett a little bit. Be sure to checkout sponsors America’s Job Exchange, WebClipDrop (discount code HIREDAILY2017) and Beyond. #GoogleJobsAPI #Glassdoor #Beamery #Teamble #Crelate #GoogleHire

In this week’s episode of HR’s most dangerous podcast, the boys cover more automation – this time in the marijuana industry – with Bloom Automation, unlimited PTO, a more official report on CareerBuilder’s pending sale, TheLadders (who?), LinkedIn beating up underdogs and more. Enjoy and be sure to checkout our sponsors America’s Job Exchange, WebClipDrop and Beyond. And, you’re welcome. #Careerbuilder #TheLadders #BloomAutomation #LinkedIn

The robots are coming! HR’s most dangerous podcast is back with – a slight line-up change this week – legendary sourcer/recruiter Jim Stroud stepping in for Cheese this week. The Show takes on many different aspects of automation with more of a SkyNet tone. Companies like Uber, Intel, Google, Ford, and Brilent are pushing the automation envelope and we – mere mortals – sit and watch the show while jobs evaporate. Last but not least we answer the question haunting your Netflix queue – Is Iron Fist really that bad? As always, thanks to America’s Job Exchange, WebClipDrop.io and Beyond.com for your support. #Brilent #Uber #JimStroud #Ford #Intel #AI #IronFist

This week, HR’s most dangerous podcast takes on a variety of topics, starting with “period leave,” avoiding most of the landmines this topic invites. The boys also cover Purple Squirrel and whether or not charging job seekers can work or not, the success of TextRecruit, the ridiculousness of Talentegy and even discuss the automation of everything. Hat tip to sponsors America’s Job Exchange, WebClipDrop.io and Beyond. #PurpleSquirrel #TextRecruit #Facebook #Talentegy #AI #PeriodLeave

This week, the boys first take a trip down Memory Lane, discussing the history of job matching and how eHarmony can’t even make it work. Can anyone? Indeed.com is still crushing it and their new native mobile app JobSpotting is a worthy topic of discussion. WorkHere has possibly figured out mobile recruiting and 21.co is a “LinkedIn InMail killer” that ignites varied opinions. In Rapid Fire, CareerBuilder and LinkedIn are highlighted. Enjoy, and Happy St. Patrick’s Day! Please remember to visit out sponsors: America’s Job Exchange (www.americasjobexchange.com), WebClipDrop (http://www.webclipdrop.io keyword HireDaily2017) and Beyond (http://www.beyond.com/cheddar). #ElevatedCareers #21co #Indeed #Careerbuilder #LinkedIn #JobSpotting #WorkHere #StPatricksDay #eHarmony

On this Uncommon.co exclusive, the boys interview Smashfly's VP of Marketing, Josh Zywien (pronounced "zwayne") to cover a broad spectrum of topics, including Zywien's opinion on chatbots, how job boards are doing in Google's World and the next big thing. Enjoy! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Announcer: This, the Chad and Cheese podcast, brought to you in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit tatech.org. Joel: Chad, why do recruiters spend money on unqualified or uninterested candidates? Chad: Dude, I don't know. Because they're recruiters? What in the hell are you talking about in the first place? Joel: All right. Stay with me here. PPC campaigns mean you're paying per click, and the person who clicks could be qualified or unqualified. You don't know, and you're still gonna pay for that click. Chad: Hell, man, a subscription model is even worse, because you're paying for all of the candidates, not necessarily qualified ones. Joel: Bingo. So the answer is current pricing models suck. Duh. So what if you handed over cash for only interested and qualified candidates? And I'm talking about candidates that are actually qualified, the ones that meet all of your job requirements from years in the industry to specific skills. Chad: I gotcha. Now you're talking about Uncommon. Joel: Bingo. Uncommon is where the model does not suck. Chad: Uncommon is simple. You set your monthly budget, and Uncommon only charges you when you get an interested applicant that meets or exceeds your job requirements. Joel: That's U-N-C-O-M-M-O-N dot C-O. Chad: Uncommon.co. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Yeah! Joel: Yo, yo, yo. It's an Uncommon exclusive. Chad: That's right. Got Chad and Cheese. This week, guess what guys? We're talking to Josh Zywien, VP of Marketing from SmashFly. Joel: Don't call him Bruce. Chad: Don't call him Bruce Zywien. JZ. Joel: Wayne's World. Chad: Call him JZ. That's what his friends call him. Joel: Excellent. Chad: We might not be friends yet, but too bad. I'm calling you JZ. VP of Marketing from Smashfly. Welcome JZ. Joel: What's up, Josh? Chad: Okay, so give us a little bit about JZ. You haven't always been at Smashfly. What actually brought you to this point in your career? How did you make it to this pinnacle? Joel: How'd you get lucky enough to be in the employment industry? JZ: I've got a really screwed up, meandering path to here. I actually was a journalism major in college and had dreams of being a Sports Illustrated writer. I wanted to be Rick Reilly basically. So, I got into that industry and found out really quickly that it pays nothing and that the industry itself was just in a total nosedive. And tried to get out of that as quickly as possible. Ended up going to work for CBS in a worse job as a copywriter for a radio station. JZ: So, you talk about picking two absolutely dead industries. I was excellent at that. And then just decided after that we oddly enough and totally serendipitous we found out my wife was pregnant with twins, and we were living in Boston at the time. And Boston's not a great place if you have two little kids and two working parents. You basically just sacrifice one salary for ... Joel: It's never really a great place. JZ: No, no. That's true. We actually ended up ... As stupid as this sounds, we both ended up quitting our jobs. My wife was an attorney and moving from Boston to the Detroit area where she was from. And rather than work for CBS out in Michigan I started my own company as a freelance writer at first. JZ: Somehow that progressed into me helping a venture capital firm called OpenView build out its content marketing machine. And this is way back in 2010 before that was a big thing, which led me down the path of marketing and long story short, Smashfly was one of the companies that OpenView had invested in. They were looking to hire a marketer on their team, had asked me if I knew anybody, and ended up raising my hand and that's how I fell into this to be honest with you. Joel: Yeah, I know somebody, me. JZ: Right, exactly, exactly. Now, whether that was smart or not you can debate. Chad: I guess we'll find out. Well, for the future CMO of Smashfly. I want to say it's probably pretty good. JZ: Oh, you hear that, Thom. Make sure Thom Hennessy hears that. Joel: Now, my question is, as a marketing guy would you have named any company Smashfly? Was Smashcockroach taken at the time? JZ: Yeah, and honestly, I think still in a closet somewhere at Smashfly HQ, there's some fly swatters that we would send out to the customers. And it's ... Sound Effect: Boo! Chad: Okay, I'm not on board with the fly swatters, but ... JZ: Yeah, nobody was on board with that. Chad: I'm on board with it. I can smell both of those pretty easily. Joel, he's got to have something simplistic, like Indeed or something. Joel: Yeah, because fly is so complicated. For those who don't know Smashfly, Josh, give us the elevator pitch on what you guys do. JZ: Yeah, so Smashfly started originally as, came out of really the need to have a job distribution tool way back to seven, eight years ago. Evolved in a recruitment marketing platform. That wasn't a thing when we were founded, but it's a thing now obviously. JZ: I think it's trending more toward the core system being the CRM, so Smashfly is obviously really hangs its hat and its anchor on the CRM, but we build career sites for companies, power the back end with a content management system. We have an events module. Obviously, Emerson, which I think we're going to be talking about. That's our recruitment assistant. JZ: It's really everything that a company needs to market its opportunities to talent ahead of an opening ahead of a need. So, you can build pipelines and build up talent pools that you can go from or pull from instead of just relying on job boards and a horrible ATS application process. Chad: So, from job distribution to CRM to RMP to chatbot, having chatbots. There's a lot of evolution that's happening. But you guys actually just switched CEOs here what in the last six, eight months or so. Have you seen, and obviously you're going to say something incredibly good because Thom's listening. But what was the big difference between the vision of old versus the new vision with Thom and crew? JZ: Yeah, so I think it's ... And you can call BS on this, but it's a true story. Mike Hennessy was our founder and came from Brass Ring, was the chief architect over there before he founded Smashfly. And Mike is truly an innovator, an idea guy who's great at seeing a hole in a market or a need that could be filled in going and building that thing. JZ: I think what Mike recognized, and I think he said this in a press release that we issued at the time, and Mike's still active with the business. But he recognized that there's a point at which the idea guy needs to pass the baton to somebody who's much more operationally minded and can take the business and scale it, and that's really Thom's background. JZ: So, Thom doesn't come from the industry but has worked for two companies, one that IPO'ed and one that was acquired right before he joined Smashfly actually. Vista Partners I believe who just invested in iCIMS. Chad: Within this short amount of time, what is being the one big difference between having Thom as a CEO and the new vision of Smashfly? JZ: Yeah, so I think it's no secret that our market has matured quite a bit, and it's a lot more competitive. There's a lot more companies that are both focused on recruitment marketing and CRM specifically. But there's a lot of fringe technologies as well that I think create some confusion in the market. So, there needs to be a very clear go-to-market plan for how we're going to continue to develop the platform but for what niche we're going to carve out and where we're going to focus our time and effort. JZ: Thom has a very strong technology background as well, so when you talk about the two different maturity phases for a business when you're just playing around with an idea, and you're trying to test that idea and see if there's a market for it. There's a lot of experimentation that can go on, and you can bounce between different ideas and play with different things. JZ: When you get to the point where the market accepts the technology and you're ready for scale there's a whole different operational process that needs to be put into place for the business, and that's the technology's ability to scale; it's our internationalization and our global expansion. Thom had a lot of really key experience there that Mike maybe didn't have or didn't see in himself and was happy to pass the baton off. So, Mike still acts as our internal R and D and also works with our team to develop some things. Joel: Hey, Josh, I'm going to switch gears off of Smashfly for a second, but I'm real interested in your analytics products. And anyone who offers analytics has a real insight into what's going on in aggregate in terms of traffic and where things are really happening. And Chad and I talk a lot on the show about Google and Facebook and LinkedIn and how much in trouble some of the job boards are. Joel: I'm curious what are you seeing trend-wise from your analytics in regards to what sources are coming up in terms of candidates for companies? What trends do you see? JZ: Yeah, so I think this won't be a shock to you guys, and I think it's only going to continue, but we've seen a lot more as Google for Jobs has taken root and more traffic is being directed organically to career sites we're starting to see a lot more traffic. And it's still the Indeeds and the CareerBuilders of the world still drive a ton of traffic to our customers' career sites. JZ: I don't think that's going to change; there's still a lot of traffic being driven by niche job words. But Google's the 800 pound gorilla that's going to continue to get bigger. So, if I were Indeed I'd be very concerned. I know it was part of your podcast last week. Everything looks rosy for them now, but I'd be really curious in six months or a year to see if that's still the case. I think it's going to compound from Google specifically. Joel: Yeah, and do you think that a lot of the niche traffic that you're starting to see, some of the rise in that traffic might be due to them doing much better in the search results in Google now since Indeed doesn't own all the damn search results? JZ: Yeah, I think it's ... Well, you guys know, Google has always been interested in quality traffic and traffic and traffic really being directed, really shortening the line between the organic source or the root source of the content and the end user. So rather than directing them through three different channels to get to ultimately the place that they wanted to get to in the first place, how do you shorten that distance? JZ: The thing with the niche job boards that I think ... where I think there's huge opportunity there, and I don't see a huge opportunity with job boards generally, especially the larger ones. I think they're going to continue to struggle, but those niche job boards with so much focus placed on quality right now, they can deliver that, right? They have an understanding of whatever market they're serving, and the people are there because they know that jobs are going to be directed specifically toward them. So I think for the end user, for the candidate obviously, it's a much better experience, and the content's much higher quality, but then the traffic being directed to the end career site or the end destination, I think, is obviously much more targeted. Joel: What are you seeing ... Aside from the analytics piece, you guys do a lot of work in branding. How is branding changing for companies? I mean, with chatbots and things like that, branding seems to be taking on a whole new life of its own. What are your thoughts around that? JZ: Yeah, so I think ... And this is where branding ... To a certain degree, marketers still screw this up, and I think, in a lot of ways, talent acquisition and recruitment marketing and employer branding are ... they follow the tail of marketing. But a lot of marketers, even today, still isolate quote-unquote "brand" to colors, logos, tag lines, that kind of stuff. And that's part of brand, but, to me, brand is really a company's full experience and story, and it's everything related to someone's engagement or interaction with that company. JZ: So to me, employer branding and recruitment marketing really has to do with that entire experience for a company. So it's great. You can have a beautiful career site, but as soon as you dump a candidate into the ATS supply process, that whole thing breaks, right, and all of a sudden, a candidate goes from having a very positive perception of a brand to maybe a negative one. JZ: So for me, it's looking at the entire experience that someone's going to have with the company from their very first introduction to it all the way through what that experience looks like as an employee. That could be onboarding. It could be employee engagement. It could be internal mobility, that kind of stuff. But to me, that's all inclusive of brand. And I hope that the market starts to kind of do brand that way, as opposed to brand being designing a pretty career site or just slapping a chatbot on the front end and hoping that fixes some small part of it. Chad: Chatbot, chatbot, chatbot, for goodness' sakes. JZ: Right. Joel: Let's talk chatbot, shall we? Chad: Let's dive into chatbots real quick. So let's talk about what a chatbot can do. And you guys just released your recruiting assistant chatbot named Emerson, which Joel loves because he's so mad about all these female ... Joel: Even male. Chad: ... all these female chatbots. Joel: I'm not mad. I'm not mad. Chad: He is furious with all of these female chatbots. Joel: You guys zigged when everyone was zagging. That's good. JZ: Yeah. I think what we saw too, right, is there was some ... When we were thinking about the name itself, there was a lot that kind of went into that, but we thought it was a little unfair. Our head of product, Karla Toyloy, really planted her flag in the ground on this. But her point was that why does an assistant always have to be female, right? Like, why can't it be male and somewhat androgynous too? Like, Emerson, as a name, was somewhat purposeful because it can be male or female. You can really interpret it however you want. Joel: We're still waiting for Pat, the chatbot. JZ: Pat, right, exactly. Joel: The Patbot. JZ: Yeah, the other ... This is a really subtle feature that's part of Emerson, but any company that implements Emerson can change the persona. They can change the name. They can change the face. They can do whatever they want. Emerson's the one that we kind of stuck with. Ralph Waldo Emerson was born in Boston, died in Concord, Mass., which is where our headquarters are, and had kind of a transformationalist view of the world, and that's kind of how we operate too. So there was some thought process there, but I agree with you, Joel. I think it's ... There was a lot of female recruiting assistants in chatbots and some that weren't male or female and just straight up bots. We thought there was kind of a window to differentiate a little bit there. Chad: So that's the recruiting assistant side of the house. There's just so much more you can use chatbots for. So this is the first segment, right, being able to help recruiters, being a recruiting assistant. What about the candidate side, on the website being able to handle applications via text or messaging? I mean, are you guys looking at all those different aspects? Is that kind of too far for what you guys are doing right now, or what's next on the chatbot horizon for SmashFly? JZ: Yeah, and this is why I think like ... I don't usually get very far when I try and make my argument that a recruiting assistant is different than a chatbot, but I do fundamentally believe that they're different things. A chatbot, to me, is very binary and has kind of a very static or myopic purpose. A lot of them today are very focused on jobs, so it's just returning jobs or it's helping somebody apply for a job, and that's great. That serves a part of the market, and it serves a need. The way we view it is how do you turn this thing into an assistant, and not just an assistant for candidates on the front end, so helping them kind of answer questions and find jobs and schedule interviews and understand what the interview process is going to look like, but for recruiters as well? JZ: The challenge with all of the great technology that's in our space and all the innovation that's kind of happening is you create this clustered mess for large enterprises, where they might have 15 to 20 tools and in some cases a lot more. We've got one customer that has, I think, 35 different technologies that they use as part of their stack, which is just ... Yeah, it's just a horrendous thing to try and tame, and then to be able to pull the data from all those things and make sense of it all is really difficult. JZ: But the biggest challenge is adoption. So it's great that you have all these tools, and they might be the best, but are your recruiters going to use them? Are your sourcers going to use them? Are they actually helping those people solve real problems in their day-to-day workflow? That's kind of how we thought through this whole assistant thing. So to answer your question, Chad, I think there's no limit to how we're thinking about this ... where this could be applied and how it could be used, but it's very much focused on how do we make things simpler for not just the candidates on the front end, but their careers on the back. Joel: So I'll make a quick plug for our interview with the iCIMS CEO, Colin Day. I believe ... Remind me, Chad. I'm pretty sure he said, "Our biggest competition is clutter." Chad: Yes. Always. Joel: Like, trying to cut through the clutter. And I think that's what Josh is sort of saying with some of these products and services out there. But sticking on chatbots, Chad, considering it's such a cluttered mess, in this week's show Chad and I talked about Emerson specifically and how this thing was going to be commoditized, that all services like yours are just going to have their own chatbot or maybe buy up some of the ones in a garage sale that are out there. I want to know what your thoughts are on my commoditization theory and what inevitably is going to happen to all the other stand-alone solutions like Mya and Olivia and AllyO. JZ: Yeah, so I think it's a natural progression for any of these types of technologies, right? There's a few core systems in any market, and I come from marketing, so ... When you think about marketing automation, there are a lot of tools that serve a purpose independently and kind of on their own when they're founded, but eventually just get wrapped up into the larger platform, so either integrating with them. JZ: So Salesforce has been great about obviously creating this ecosystem where all these different new technologies can plug in, but I think that's the case in our industry as well. I think you're right that ultimately all the big players in our industry, whether it's us or you get even bigger into the Workdays, SAPs, Oracles of the world, it's going to be something that they have, and it's going to be something that they're all going to need, and there will be an acquisition spree at some point. JZ: But I think that's ... Again, I don't think that's unique to chatbots or your recruiting assistants or anything like that. I think you'll probably see that with a lot of the different kind of, I hate to call them point solutions, but the smaller systems that really are the core systems that teams operate out of. So I do think there'll be consolidation. There'll be commoditization at some point. JZ: I just don't think it's going to be as soon as maybe you make it sound. I think we're a few years away from that, and I still think there's an opportunity to ... And this is our own belief. You can differ or disagree, but I think there's an opportunity still to differentiate between a chatbot that can do very simple, basic automation and a recruiting assistant that really is designed to be a little bit more flexible and adaptable to kind of needs. Joel: I think we probably agree more than we disagree on that point. JZ: Yeah. Joel: What do you think, Chad? Chad: I think the question is do you believe chatbots are bigger than SEO? JZ: Are you asking me that or Joel to defend his position? Chad: Yeah. I mean, yeah, because I know what Joel's position is on this. Do you think chatbots and what chatbots can actually do for process and for ... I mean, just for systems overall is bigger than SEO? JZ: I think it's ... I don't know if I'd use the word bigger, but I think it's different because SEO ... Where SEO is kind of unique is that there really was one winner there. Obviously, Bing and Yahoo still exist, but what is it? Like, 5 to 10% of website traffic is directed through there? Chad: Yeah, but in our industry. If you take a look at our industry, right? JZ: Sure. Chad: How many SEO platforms were there out there and which ones actually sold, versus how many chatbot platforms are out there today and how many do you think are actually going to be sold? JZ: Yeah. Joel: So I'll ask the question differently. Jobs2Web sold for a hundred-some million dollars to SAP. Are any of these chatbots going to sell for more than a hundred million dollars? JZ: I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes. Joel: Oh. Chad: And there's going to be more than just one. That's the thing. JZ: Yeah, yeah. I do think that, because I think again ... And I know, Chad, you made this point on the last podcast, that the real key difference here is that SEO is something that can be kind of engineered to a certain point, and at some point you get to a point where there's not much more you can do. Now, there's more you can do than somebody else, but the actual functionality reaches a point where it's somewhat static. Like, there's not much further you can push it. In fact, the further you try and push it, sometimes you make it worse. Chad: So in this industry, chatbots are definitely going to be bigger than SEO. I've got to get on to my next question, Josh. So ... JZ: I think so, yes, yeah. Chad: SmashFly has really changed from a billed to a partner kind of scenario, and we've seen this with Olivia and then obviously HiringSolved. And so can you give us kind of like an idea of what you see happening with different platforms like SmashFly who instead of trying to develop technology for every single gap that's out there look to actually partner and why that is what we're seeing more often than actually the builds happening. JZ: Yeah. I think the question comes down to it. If you ... Any product that you buy, do you want a company to try and do everything marginally okay or would you rather it focus on whatever its core value is extraordinarily well and then find the other pieces that plug in and make sure that those pieces are the best of the best. For example, Apple when it developed the iPhone, it could have gone and built its own camera. It had plenty of engineers, it could have figured out how to build a camera, or it could have gone and figured out how to build processors, but it didn't do that because there were already companies that were extraordinarily good at building really small cameras and really quick processors so it just used those companies that helped build its hardware. JZ: I think the same thing should happen. I'm not gonna say that it will happen with every company, but in our industry, there's so much good technology and so much good functionality that's out there, I just don't know how the hell you get your hands on it as a buyer, or how you figure out whose thing is better than another. What we're pretty good at, and I think we have ... our VP of business development, Lynne Foster, is really honestly I think one of the best at this, is just really understanding the market and being able to identify the opportunities for us to partner with companies like Paradox or HiringSolved or whoever and get their tech fully integrated into ours, and that lets us focus on what we're really good at and lets them kind of innovate as well alongside us, so that way as those companies continue to develop and get better at what they do, we can do the same with our core technology, and then work on things that we think are maybe a little bit tangential to what we do, but get better, get better at them. JZ: Yeah, I think it's gonna happen more. I don't know that every company will buy into it. Some companies still just think the best thing to do is build. Joel: So Josh, take me into the Smashfly war room for a second where the dry erase board resides and what is the next big thing in this industry in terms of what you guys are talking about in that war room? What are the next partnerships you want to either build or what kind of products are the next things you want to introduce and bring to your customers? JZ: Yeah. I think you guys have two sponsors I believe who are in that space and I think this is maybe an obvious answer, but programmatic is one. I think for us, we've had a job distribution tool, but to a certain degree that has limited functionality in a world of programmatic, so I do think programmatic is an area where could we invest and could we try and build something that is marginally okay? We probably could but why do that when there's the Uncommon's of the world or I think JobAdX is maybe another one that you guys work with. Chad: Yep. JZ: I think assessments and really kind of like I think there's a very large difference in the quality of assessment tools out there. Some of them provide very basic functionality that look like an assessment but really add no value to the company long term, and then there are these really deep psychological assessment tools that tell you a lot about how someone thinks, how they operate, to a certain degree what someone's writing style and how they write tells you about how they work. There's a lot of investment into machine learning there to process all the data that comes from candidate engagement. If a candidate has a conversation with our recruiting assistant, for example, there's a lot more that they're willing to share in that conversation than they might be if they fill out a talent network form or an application. JZ: I think processing that data and trying to look for some sort of indicator around what that person is like truly and what they will look like as an employee, there's a lot that can be mined from that that you can't get from traditional applications and form fields. Joel: So you're saying the Second Life comeback isn't coming any time soon. JZ: No, no. Chad: Yeah, Joel. Your half horse, whatever that thing is called Avatar is not coming back, man. Joel: I'm at a dance party right now, thank you very much. Chad: So talking about machine learning, now SmashFly has partnered with Google, right? Are you guys using the job search API? JZ: Yep, so we have I can't say which customer, but we have a customer finishing up data right now. It's a really large Fortune, I would say Fortune 50 so I don't isolate it too much, but huge, huge, massive employer that was a great test case for us because of the amount of data and then the volume of searches that they get. That's been pretty remarkable to see the difference. JZ: Yeah, we're partnering with them there. I know that the Google Profile's API also is something that we've explored and looked into, but yeah, there's a few different things, Google and outside of Google that we're looking at with machine learning. Chad: Well that being said, just as you bring up the candidate search, we're seeing companies who are specific to actually building that kind of technology like Career Builder. Google's gonna do it better than we do it and knowing that SmashFly is more on the focus of partnering versus building, especially when you've got an organization like Google who's going to do it better no matter what, do you see SmashFly and some of your clients, and I would assume that the clients are probably gonna choose this more than anything else, do you see SmashFly going full Google? JZ: Yes and I would say that Google is one of those no-brainer situations where especially when it's Google and search. There's no reason to try to replicate or recreate what they've done. I think it's smart for Google to get into this space. I just don't know why you'd try and fight that stream. I think it just makes too much sense and they're too good at search to really screw around with trying to fight up against that. Chad: Well then the matching piece right? JZ: Right. Chad: Because you've got the job's API, then you've got what I like to call the people API or the candidate API. To be able to mold those together, same tech, then you start matching. That's pretty damn powerful, not just from the standpoint of being able to provide side, periphery searches and whatnot but also being able to provide emailing and things of that nature that's more relevant than what you can do today. JZ: Yeah, for sure. I think it's, again, what Google is extraordinarily good at is surfacing the most relevant information, no matter what. In our industry, in our use case obviously that could be people, could be jobs, but I think it's ... the key here obviously is ... We've got search functionality built within our platform and also on any career site that we build, I think it works really well or pretty well, but when you stack them up against Google, it's hard to really do better than they do. Again, this is where [crosstalk 00:29:07]. Exactly and I think this is where, to your point, customers are gonna help us make that decision very easy. I'd be shocked if the market in two years ... you talk about commoditization, I think in a lot of ways Google will commoditize search in our industry. Joel: Well, Josh, man, we appreciate it. We know you're a busy guy. Thanks for coming on the show. For anyone who doesn't know SmashFly, where can they learn more? JZ: Yeah, Smashfly.com. We actually just redesigned the whole site. We have some new product pages up there and I'm feeling pretty good about it, so that's the best spot. Joel: And anyone who's really bored out there, just go to the site and talk to Emerson, their tripod, to pass the time. JZ: Yeah, exactly. Joel: Chad, Josh, we out. Chad: We out. JZ: Thanks guys. Joel: Remember to visit uncommon.co. Chad: Where the candidate model doesn't suck. Uncommon.co. Do it. Chad: Thanks to our partners at TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Remember to visit TAtech.org. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show, and be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Smashfly #chatbots #iCims #Uncommon #TATech #ATS #CRM #RMP #Jobs2Web

Is it a chatbot? No, it's conversational AI. Wait, that's the same thing right? What can a bot do? How should it/her/he/they engage? All legit questions and reasons why Adam Godson and Josh Zywien, Paradox hot shots, join The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Wait, what about that McDonald's Alexa train wreck from last year? Oh yes, we cover that too :) Knowledge powered by the AI Gods at Sovren.com PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire. Sovren (39s): Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now based on that technology come Sovren's artificial intelligence. matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second receive match results that provide candidate scored by fit to job. And just as importantly, the jumps fit to the candidate make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's sovren.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. INTRO (1m 4s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad (1m 6s): Oh yeah. Joel (1m 7s): It's the Monday morning quarterback edition of the Chad and Cheese podcast everybody. What's going on I'm your cohost. Joel Cheeseman joined as always by my Batman, Chad Sowash. Chad (-): Hello. Joel (1m 18s): Chad, What's going on, man? It's Monday after the first week of football. How you doing? Chad (1m 20s): Oh my God. I've had a whole pot of fucking coffee, watching football. And yesterday I heard that the Buckeyes are going to be on the field in mid October. It's like fucking Christmas and not in, in what is it, September? Joel (1m 36s): I know. Right? My Browns ripped it up. So I'm pretty happy about that. Anyway, we are joined by an all star cast of guest today. The Paradox boys are here. Chad (1m 46s): This is the supersize podcast of marketing. Joel (1m 50s): Josh Zywien, I think I said that right. And head of product, Adam Godson. Boys what's going on? Adam Godson (1m 54s): Happy to be here. Josh Zywien (1m 54s): What's going on guys? Very generous intro. Joel (1m 59s): Your teams must have lost yesterday. Adam Godson (1m 59s): It's just Monday. Chad (1m 59s): So real quick, JZ, because I know your wife is a Michigan fan that's a big boo. Who's your NCAA. Who's your team? Josh Zywien (2m 13s): My team? I mean, I should say the Miami Redhawks because... Chad (2m 16s): It's not a real team. Go ahead. Josh Zywien (2m 19s): What's the point? So I root for Notre Dame because my brother went there for his master's and just grew up kind of watching him. So it's been my team. Joel (2m 29s): They struggled a little bit in the first half against Duke. Josh Zywien (2m 33s): That was real sloppy. Chad (2m 33s): And we know Godson is one of those Iowa fucking hot guy dudes. Adam Godson (2m 47s): Three yards and a cloud of dust baby. Here we go. Chad (2m 46s): Who's your Pro team Adam? Adam Godson (2m 46s): Green Bay Packers, I live in Wisconsin. It's just basically a religion. Joel (2m 50s): You should be really happy after that performance. Adam Godson (2m 54s): Yeah they played great! Chad (2m 54s): Dude. We kicked ass and took names. So JZ real quick, give us a Twitter intro about you, background, all that other fun stuff. Josh Zywien (3m 1s): Yeah. So I'm the, the head of marketing here at Paradox previously was the head of marketing at a company called SmashFly that was acquired by Symphony Talent. Back in November, before that, I worked for a venture capital firm in marketing and owned my own marketing agency for a little while and way, way back, I was a sports journalist, that's how I got started in this whole kind of weird writing marketing world. Joel (3m 21s): Covering Ben Roethlisberger but we'll save that for another day. Chad (3m 27s): Trying not to get beat up by Ben Roethlisberger. Joel (3m 30s): Adam, tell the folks who you are. Chad (3m 33s): Thanks, Joel. I'm head a product at Paradox has joined JZ about six months ago. Before that I'm an HR tech industry guy so I spent nine years at a CTO of CLO of the RPO field. So I got a chance to see all the technology that the industry has to offer and then decided to go join one. So it's been a cool journey. Joel (3m 54s): And both of you are in the archives. So for listeners who want to know more, go, go check it out. We interviewed both these guys individually. Chad (4m 1s): So words of warning for anyone listening, by the way, Adam talks extremely fast. So if you listen to podcasts at one and a half time, speed, you're going to want to back. You're going to want to back that shit back up. So, okay. So the first question right out of the gate, this one's for Joel and for the listeners who haven't quite yet come to understand the difference between a chat bot in conversational AI. I know the paper that Madelyn did goes into this a fairly deep, can you guys give us a quick overview? Chad (4m 33s): What's the difference between a chat bot and conversational AI? Or are they just the same shit? Adam Godson (4m 36s): The difference is the underlying technology. So a chat bot plays a lot of tennis. So being able to say like, if this, if I get this response, then do that. And you can try to draw a diagram of things that are really pretty straight forward, but doesn't have any natural language processing or actually understand what the person is, having a conversation with them, saying. You see a lot of this manifested when you see a bot, that's got like three buttons in it. You can't type an answer. It just says, what would you like to do? Adam Godson (5m 9s): A yes, no or maybe, and you push one of those buttons and it really doesn't even have to be part of a check. You are not chatting. It's just a different way to do an interface. When you talk about conversational AI, there's a layer of understanding. So natural language processing, where instead of writing, yes, you say sure. Or aha, or yuppers or whatever the hell you want to say, people say some weird stuff. I can tell you that, but then understands that that's a response that is an analog to yes. So being able to actually understand is the difference between just a dumb chat bot and actual conversational AI. Chad (5m 42s): So that that's kind of like evolved because that's what everybody was saying. A chat bot was at first because Joel's, he's really hitting on kind of like the hierarchical, you know, is it, is it really just RPA vs AI that understands what you're saying, right and LP? That's what everybody was saying at first. This is what we have, but now we're kind of, we're trying to split those two worlds. Is that because there are a bunch of those, kind of like bullshit, choose your own adventure, kind of chat bots that are out there versus people who are really doing the heavy lifting and conversational AI. Chad (6m 19s): Is there a lot of vaporware ? Adam Godson (6m 20s): I think honestly, what we did, I think you're right, Chad is it started with people trying to do conversational AI and process language. A lot of people figured out that was really hard so then they said, you know what, let's go back and put buttons in here to direct the user and make this more straightforward. So instead of typing something, let's just put buttons that they can push. And it really created a divide because it is hard. And so companies that couldn't invest in natural language processing and really doing it well and having a taxonomy of words and all the stuff that's really hard, just went to simple interface and said, just put a button in there and we'll make the button go. Adam Godson (6m 59s): So you really do see a divide now, whereas, you know, three years ago, it was probably a little bit more straight forward where people trying to figure out what path to take. Josh Zywien (7m 12s): I think too, like, just to add on that, Adam, I think sometimes people from outside of this industry come into this industry and think they can solve the problem in a very simple way and fail to recognize that there's a ton of nuance and gray area in recruiting and talent acquisition. So like that ability to understand the intent of what somebody actually wants to do is so important to actually creating real value I think with this technology in this industry. Chad (7m 38s): Plus marketing got involved and they were naming it whatever the fuck they wanted to name it right? Josh Zywien (7m 41s): Always the marketing. Joel (7m 41s): So talk about that, JZ, you know, I'm of the opinion that you're not what you say are your, what the customer says you are. And it seems like we're in a place where you're a chat bot, whether you want to be a chat bot or not, but does our definition of what a chat bot is evolved into something that's, you know, natural language processing and really kind of understanding, or you sort of locked in this whole tennis match that Adam so eloquently put it, is it just like, let's just resort back to chat bot and hope we evolve, or like, are we really gonna push this sort of a conversational AI narrative? Josh Zywien (8m 21s): Yeah, I think it's, I mean, narrative is kind of a nice word for reframing or repositioning something. So, you know, do people call us a chat bot? Do some of our clients even call us a chat bot? Occasionally? Yeah. I think when people are out shopping for this type of technology, they're looking for a chat bot, typically, you can look at search volume and search trends and see that. Yeah. I think the, the reason we use the words that we do is I think it's important to elevate what the technology can do and maybe what the expectations for the technologies should be. Josh Zywien (8m 54s): And so it's, is it like a little bit of marketing repositioning would say yes. But I do think there, there are kind of layers of functionality or depth of functionality that, you know, when you say chat bot, it just doesn't feel like it has a lot of heft there when in reality, the technology is pretty powerful. It can do a lot of different things. So, you know, I think it's a bit of a dangerous game to get trapped into the chat bot world. When you know the tools you, you actually offer can, can provide a lot more. Joel (9m 21s): Yeah. Let's get this out of the way right now. You guys were sort of Olivia, when you launch now, you're really Paradox. Like how do those two brands co-exist today? Or are you moving away from the Olivia stuff? And you're just Paradox now? Josh Zywien (9m 33s): Yeah. I mean, I'll, I'll tackle that one. I don't want to throw them back at Adam. I think it's, you know, originally it was, the idea was to personify the assistant a little bit and you see this in other technologies, obviously you have Alexa, some companies don't personify and so you have Google assistant. But we thought it was especially in recruiting and tonic this moment, that was really important to not necessarily trick people into thinking they're talking to a human, but give them more of a human experience. So we'll definitely stick with the Olivia kind of branding, but the positioning has a business's Paradox. The Paradox is the company. Josh Zywien (10m 3s): We view a Olivia's as the product itself. And Olivia has a bunch of skills where she can help companies and candidates do a bunch of different things. Joel (10m 11s): Just to go back, obviously COVID has changed how you guys work. I just, just sort of a check in on how things are going at the company, how things have changed for you guys, either both from a product and marketing perspective, or just a personal perspective. I know you're both working from, Josh Zywien (10m 24s): I think you should ask Adam that question. Cause his first day was I think when the whole country got shut down. Adam Godson (10m 28s): That is true, it was, it was a unique experience to do that, but really we reacted quickly to the way that companies have changed. So there was a period of brief uncertainty, of course, no one really knew what the hell was going to happen, but we moved really quickly to add features that would help with automation and what our clients were going through. So we quickly added things like a whole bunch, a whole knowledge base of intense around COVID. So employees looking to ask things about how the company is dealing with remote work, how, what safety things are in our, in, in play that are going to help me as an employee stay safe. Adam Godson (11m 7s): So we added a whole bunch of things there. We added a virtual events platform in March, April. We added video interviewing so companies could have that richness, that experience. So we've been able to react really quickly to what our customers are asking. And that's one of the joys of being a small and agile company. As a company ourselves we've been remote since, since March. We will be through the end of the year as well. And I think we found that to be really productive. So there's a lot of great things about being in an office, but our team has been able to adapt really well to be able to collaborate virtually. Adam Godson (11m 42s): And I do the things that, that we can do there. We still miss seeing customers being able to see each other and collaborate, but it's been a good experience, basically. Joel (11m 54s): JZ what are you gonna do with that conference budget? That's now being re-directed? Josh Zywien (11m 56s): Well, I'm going to throw it all these, these fancy ... Joel (11m 58s): Podcast advertising right.? Josh Zywien (12m 0s): Yeah, right. I mean it's yeah, that, that whole thing has been really interesting. You guys were on the conference circuit for, I mean, what, like every week you were going somewhere. So that's been the hardest thing as a marketer is figuring out where to kind of place the brand and where to invest those dollars. Because I don't know, there's some, I don't know what your, your opinion has been of some of the virtual replacements for these events, but some have been pretty good. I thought Smash Lodge, that event was really good. Joel (12m 26s): Yeah. Well, if you have a virtual DJ and a mixologist, for sure, right? Josh Zywien (12m 30s): Yeah. I mean, you can't go wrong, but I think there are so many of these events are still figuring out how to deliver an actual engaging experience. You just get there and you sign up and you leave after an hour. Cause it's somebody just talking to you the whole time. Joel (12m 42s): So, so where are you putting those dollars? Josh Zywien (12m 43s): I can't tell you that I'm going to give away all my secrets Chad (12m 48s): Let's switch a little bit. We were talking about what companies are looking for now. That's, that's obviously changed to let's talk about adoption. Because what we've, what we've, what we've seen. And what we've heard thus far is that COVID has pushed the slow moving industries, even faster to be able to adopt technologies, to help them get to probably where they should have been already. Are you guys seeing that? Are you seeing adoption? What's the big change from the ask, from organizations now that most of their people are remote and the whole recruiting, onboarding process is changing for them too? Josh Zywien (13m 26s): Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I'll have Adam talk about our product usage, which we've seen pretty dramatic spikes over the last few months, but in terms of what companies are looking for, I think it started out in March, April with needing to do more with less. You had teams that were furloughing recruiters or recruiting coordinators, recruiting teams so now you didn't have anybody to schedule interviews. You didn't have anybody to screen resumes or applicants that were coming in. So it was figuring out how you could use technology to get more done. I think that's still true, but I think you're now starting to see companies come back and say like, okay, well we can automate, but let's not lose the experience. Josh Zywien (14m 2s): We don't want to start treating candidates like shit again. So, you know, make sure that they can kind of balance the two. In terms of adoption. I mean, I think we've seen pretty incredible adoption and results from, from clients, which you can get into a couple of case studies if you'd like, but Adam can talk more about... Adam Godson (14m 15s): Yeah. In talking with prospects and clients, a lot of them have the chicken and egg problem of now they've got to do twice as much work with half the budget. Unsurprisingly, a lot of, a lot of recruiters went when COVID first hit and then it's just been the spark for, okay, now we've got to really be more efficient at this, and be able to figure out touch-less recruiting, how to be able to figure out how do we screen people without doing a bazillion phone interviews that are really inefficient? Adam Godson (14m 45s): How can we get to the best candidates fastest and then making them feel comfortable answering the questions as well. So I think we've seen some, some good spark that's helped move us along. Chad (14m 54s): This is an entirely new touch-less type of recruiting, social distancing type. So let's talk a little bit about that with regard to scale, because once again, companies that haven't adopted tech, they had enough people on the ground to be able to quote/unquote "scale." They really didn't, but they pretty much overworked their people. They don't have those people now. Right? They're going to have to scale up so quickly, not just in their recruiting departments, but across the entire organization. Chad (15m 29s): Are you guys talking mainly about scale? Is that an issue that companies are even bringing to the table or is that something that you're bringing forward that they're not even thinking about it. Adam Godson (15m 40s): Oh, they're definitely thinking about it. I think they're looking at the team that used to exist and thinking, how the hell are we going to do this? So thinking about how we can bring that to them. And that's one of the beautiful things about technology is, you know, I think about breaking recruiting down to its most fundamental level it's about conversations. And all the things we put in place: application and screening and a second screening, are all there because you want to filter the number of conversations you have to only the best conversations. Adam Godson (16m 10s): Well, if you could actually automate conversations, then you can ha you can really talk to everybody. And so I think being able to scale is what conversation AI is really all about. Josh Zywien (16m 20s): Yeah. I think too, there are plenty of companies that haven't laid off their recruiting teams. So I can't name the company that I'm thinking of, but what has happened with this company is they didn't lay anybody off, but they started like really evaluating the efficiency of their process and looking at what humans were doing that they didn't need to do. So I think it's like the whole COVID thing is, has really shine a spotlight on, are we doing this in the most effective way possible? Which then leads them down the path, I think to discover this type of technology and what it can do. Josh Zywien (16m 51s): But it's this like, you know, kind of instantaneous awareness of like, Oh my gosh, there actually is something out there that can make this experience a whole lot better for everybody. Joel (16m 57s): Curious, in regards to experience, how do most candidates or job seekers use the service? Are you finding that they come through most through, I mean, a web browser, a mobile browser, is it sort of straight SMS? I mean, how do, how do, how are people using the product most, if you had to break it down in percentages? Adam Godson (17m 14s): It's a ton based on the use case. So we've got clients like McDonald's where the most common use cases when you, you know, you and I were teenagers, we walked into McDonald's and asked for an application and now they point to the sign that says texts apply to 25,000. And so we see a ton of traffic at the, our level on SMS. That's the majority of our traffic engage with Olivia that way. When it comes to corporate more corporate jobs, we see a lot of engagement on career sites and so that's still majority web, but overall we are majority mobile. Joel (17m 48s): Gotcha. And what, what sort of a prediction for the SMS companies, you know, the Emissaries, the Text Recruits that sort of have a manual process, like, do you think they'll always be a space for that manual SMS conversation? Or do you think that automation will eventually put those guys out of business? Adam Godson (18m 7s): So there's always a space for conversations. I think it depends on the scale opportunity. So some may want to have those conversations and really personally be able to do that at the scale of they've got. Small businesses, for example, they don't want to automate that. And so I think there's a third space there there's oxygen in the room for all types of applications. Josh Zywien (18m 30s): Yeah. I'd agree with that. I think the big thing is flexibility within the conversation. So what we found is that candidates, when they come into, whether they start via SMS or they started on a career site, they usually have like multiple goals. But the conversation is either to find out more about the company, what do they pay? What jobs they have open? Maybe they would actually want to apply to the job, sometimes it's a check on the status of an application. So it's never kind of binary. So I think those companies where the conversation is kind of one director and one path like they're going to have to change to meet the demand of the market. Josh Zywien (19m 4s): And I think the market's going to start to demand more flexibility within the conversation. Chad (19m 9s): So let's talk about the Mchire the Alexa in Google Home process. So for the old process, you guys weren't around you guys weren't around when this was when this launched. So you guys, you get, you know, you get safe haven for at least what, what happened then. The assistant in itself, the old process you tell the assistant that you want to search for job at McDonald's, then you give it your mobile number, then it texts you a link that sends you to the old ass applicant tracking system and you have to go through that process. Chad (19m 40s): Now I understand that's better than pointing out a sign and saying, give me a paper application and filling it out on pen and paper in the location. Totally get that. But that's still a shit process. What have you guys done to evolve it? Because you do have conversational AI and if you do have their number, they've already opted into conversations and you guys can get so much data from them. What are you guys doing today? And what kind of numbers can you share with us? Josh Zywien (20m 6s): Yeah. After some, some backstory or kind of history first, and then I'll let Adam get into the success we've seen.. Chad (20m 12s): You're going to make excuses, I can feel it. Josh Zywien (20m 19s): Not excuses, I think you, Chad, your experience that you had was real, like that is that certainly was part of one kind of direction of the experience. But even back when we launched originally, you could apply to a job almost completely through Alexa, as long as we were controlling the job. If we had to kick it to an outside ATS, which is sometimes what happens with these large corporations, is they have franchisees that have their own tools that are on systems so we had to kind of integrate within that ecosystem. Then, you know, obviously it's, you know, it's gonna be one experience in one direction and one experience in another. Josh Zywien (20m 49s): What we're, I think we've started to see as we've grown, our relationship with McDonald's is we started to kind of take over more of their jobs and we were working with more of their franchisees. So now the experience is more seamless. You don't get kicked to an ATS, you can apply directly through Olivia and it goes all the way up through to offer and onboarding. So Adam can talk about that, but it's, it has evolved quite a bit. Chad (21m 11s): Yeah, I want to hear from Adam because Adam built a system when he was at CLO that I always talked about on the podcast and it was specific high volume and he put some good shit together. So what, give me some of the good stuff that you're doing today, Adam, and what can we, what can we look for in the future with this product? Lots of high volume stuff? Adam Godson (21m 31s): With good shit, as you say, good shit, coming to be able to automate for recruiters in high volume spaces. So I think what we found at high volume spaces is that candidate experience and speed are really the same thing. And so it's about how fast can we make this happen? How can we not do it in a way that's overly complicated and how do we do it so it's using the mobile device, which is the only computer most of those individuals own. And so JZ is right there on the, in the Alexa applications the franchise architecture can be really difficult to take to handle. Adam Godson (22m 6s): But as we think about both franchise and for store owned, high volume, being able to get candidates in really quickly and be able to do things in some parallel paths. So for example, on the McHire, Olivia is going to ask some minimum qualification questions, get someone qualified, and then schedule the interview while the person fills out their application. And so being able to do those things in parallel allows them to get the interview scheduled and not have to wait. And what we've been able to do is cut down a lot of the waiting time. Adam Godson (22m 37s): So it used to take 14 days to get hired at a McDonald's and now it takes three. And so what was cut out was a lot of waiting a person waiting to look at the application, waiting to schedule the interview, waiting between the interviews, waiting for the decision to happen. And because we're using text messaging and all mobile web, they're able to schedule the interview, get an offer, accept the offer, fill out their paperwork, all those things on their phone and just get to work faster. And for restaurant owners, getting employees faster, we're get, we get feedback from them saying this job is actually fun when I'm fully staffed, I'm able to do enjoy that. Chad (23m 15s): Give me some stats around that though. I mean, that's, that's a huge compression in time. Where are you seeing the biggest, the biggest points of compression? Because I know before, when you build a system that you could, within seven minutes, have somebody scheduled for an interview, where is the compression around that? Adam Godson (23m 28s): It really is around that, that initial part of the interview or the application to be able to screen them, get scheduled without having to have the person review. So the ability to have them just schedule in that calendar without waiting for the manager, because that was where a huge amount of the time was previously for. But the part of the process is waiting for the manager to get around to it amongst all the other things that they have to do that that's area one and area two that I didn't solve for before is on the post accept. Adam Godson (24m 1s): So all of the onboarding things. It's just, it's typically a mess where people are going to get emails from different systems and just this, this rat's nest of things for the employee to do. And they just can't figure it out. And so some of them give up and punt like the Browns, others will not, and they'll just keep yelling. I think being able to solve for that and actually get people to work is the other thing that's been really important. Chad (24m 29s): Well, that was a boo for the Browns, by the way that Browns fans are used to that. So not, not a big deal. Joel (24m 34s): A quick reminder, Adam I have this list of Red hard questions you get into before you make another comment curious you guys, where are you with voice apply? Like, is this, is that really going to happen? Are you guys really spending a lot of resources around it? Are you seeing growth? Is it too early to tell, I assume you're not going to throw it under the bus, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are on voice apply. Adam Godson (24m 56s): Yeah. The technology is pretty good. And so we have voice supply and you can go to career sites like Citizens Bank and, and find Olivia there, Jamie, they call it, find a voice. But it's voice to technology is pretty good. The adoption is still gaining momentum. So people's comfort with having, with using voice, having voice interactions is still growing. So from a traffic perspective, we see most of it comes still in traditional ways. Joel (25m 26s): Is it a marketing challenge? Is it going to take McDonald's to have a commercial with, Hey, apply on Alexa for this thing to happen? Josh Zywien (25m 33s): Yeah, I mean, I bet they did some press around the whole apply through thing. And I do think there's a ton of potential there. I actually think voice is at least right now, much more powerful for the frontline manager in an hourly restaurant or retail situation. So think about somebody who works in a McDonald's who's constantly on the move, they've got their phone in their pocket and they need to cancel an interview, reschedule an interview. Like they don't want to go back to the little desktop that's in a tiny little closet in the back room and sit down and do that, they should just be able to pull out their phone and say, you know, in our case, Hey, Olivia, I need to reschedule my interview at two o'clock and it's just done. Josh Zywien (26m 8s): It's taken care of. So I think that's the more powerful kind of, you know, near term use for voice. I don't know that candidates, when they think about applying to jobs, I don't know that that behavior change has happened yet. Where they think like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask Alexa and I'm gonna apply with my voice they're still programmed to go fill out a really long ATS application. So the first version is like, just getting them comfortable with the idea that they can actually apply via text. Voice you know, I kind of see as something that happens a few years down the road. Joel (26m 37s): We have a long way to go on that one that's what I'm hearing. Josh Zywien (26m 39s): Yeah, I think so. Joel (26m 41s): Let's talk about a virtual events, which you guys are doing now. Are, real life events ever going to come back or do you think virtual events will be sort of the norm even post COVID? Josh Zywien (26m 52s): Yeah, I think it's going to be the norm personally. Adam Godson (26m 53s): I think some of both, to be honest, I think people do like seeing folks in person, but it's hard. It's hard to argue with the effectiveness of some of the virtual events. You know, ours has, Olivia can chat and prescreen, the recruiter can have some quick interaction via text message or, or web chat. And it can also flip to live video, to be able to confirm that we're all good and had to have that emotional connection. We get reports from companies hiring a hundred, 200 people in a couple of hours event. Adam Godson (27m 25s): It's hard to argue with the results and the overhead to do the old thing where you rent a hotel ballroom or, or whatever it is that these big, expensive events. So I think there'll be some, but I think it will be significantly less. Chad (27m 37s): I think staffing in RPO or going to make a surge when things start to scale, because they're going to be many, many of these organizations, talent acquisition. They're going to believe that they're ready, but they're going to find out that they're not, are you saying, especially Adam, because you were definitely in this arena, do you think that staffing and RPO are ready for this? Or do you think they're just as ill prepared as talent acquisition professionals? Adam Godson (28m 2s): I think there's a few different paths, to be honest. I think there are some staffing at RPO firms that are a little old school and are going to get blindsided. And I think that there are some that are more forward thinking and are ready to go. So I think you'll find a couple of paths. I think regardless, there's always some of the incentives that conflict where in staffing you get paid, oftentimes based on your labor or an RPO, you're paid on the number of hours someone works, or number of employees you have working on an account. The more efficient you get that can be a bit of a conflict of interest. Adam Godson (28m 34s): And so it's not, they're not easy questions that requires some forward thinking to think about the strategy that those organizations are going to have. Chad (28m 40s): Well, you guys kept your high volume pretty much as a part of your process and you didn't really productize it, right? Unlike Alexander Mann solutions and our buddy Quincy with Hourly, do you think they will start to press those products out forward so that companies know that they can engage faster and that they have the tech? Adam Godson (29m 3s): It's interesting, it's sort of, you know, choosing whether or not you want to really target a specific market and go hard after one thing, or that becomes part of your holistic offering in most of the things. So for example, you know, CLS a lot of health care. So at a hospital you're hiring high volume workers to work in the cafeteria and in environmental services and other, other hourly jobs, also hiring nurses and doctors, physical therapists, those types of things. So I think it matters some of them, the mix of business whether it's going to be pure in the, in the space, if we're hiring high volume or hourly workers or whether it's going to be a more substantial mix. Joel (29m 40s): I know one of the early criticisms that that Paradox had, and Olivia was sort of the integration question and, you know, to what degree do you integrate with ATSs? And, you know, it's never really gonna happen for you guys until that happens. So I'm curious about the integration strategy, how that's going, what it's meant to the business and what the future looks like from that, from that perspective? Josh Zywien (30m 2s): Well, I was going to say, Adam can talk from a product strategy perspective, but I think from a, like a go to market perspective, we've from the very beginning kind of intentionally been ecosystem friendly. So Aaron has always talked about Olivia, his vision for Olivia being this communications layer between a company and its people. And to be able to do that, you have to integrate with the ATS. Sometimes the HCM, you know, oftentimes the CRM. So like we have not played favorites and we've have open APIs and have always played integration friendly. Josh Zywien (30m 32s): The question is, you guys know is sometimes those larger ATS vendors or ECM vendors don't want to play friendly back. Chad (30m 37s): They have their own. Josh Zywien (30m 38s): Yeah, exactly. So it's a constant like tug of war and sometimes it's client driven, right? If you have a huge fortune 100 client and they're paying, you know, insert ATS name, millions of dollars a year, they have some leverage. And so sometimes it's working through that client to create some relationship that didn't exist before. But you know, our motivation has always been not to force clients to rip and replace. If we can kind of fit into their workflow and integrate with their tools and make change management a little bit easier, then that's definitely the goal. Adam Godson (31m 9s): Yeah a hundred percent. I mean, we, we spent, I spend personally a lot of time on integration. We have made some good strides there even the last six months. We have lots of ETFs integrations, background checks, Iodine, Watsi, all the innovation you'd expect. We actually built our own integration middleware to help us make integration this faster and easier as well. Of course, we've got an open API and we also have a team to do it, of integration specialists. And that's because it's really often difficult to wait for our clients to be able to execute that work. Adam Godson (31m 43s): And so we just raise our hand and say, actually, we'll do it. We don't have to wait for you guys to do it. We'll write the scripts. We'll, we'll be able to push in. We'll, we'll make the API connection to data transformations in order to do that, just because we know it helps us strategically move faster and get to results more quickly. Joel (31m 58s): We know that that platforms are incredibly powerful from, you mentioned ATS CRM, obviously you're moving upstream to integrate with them. JZ you mentioned open APIs. Is there ever going to be a day where you guys, the, the conversational AI/chat bots become platforms for people to come build stuff on your systems, as opposed to you always building to ATSs and CRMs? Like, is that something the future holds? Josh Zywien (32m 24s): Well we're always open to is, is most of what we work on, I shouldn't say most of what we're going, a lot of what we work on is client driven. So if a client brings a really interesting use case to us, that we see, you know, application for across multiple clients then we'll go and build it. So, you know, some Of it, I think is, you know, it would be nice to have that kind of integration between Olivia and, and different tools that are used and have everybody kind of lived through Olivia, but we don't necessarily wanna force that on people either. If the recruiters live in Workday, then you know, let them, let them continue to work in Workday. Josh Zywien (32m 56s): And Olivia can just work outside of that or work with it. Adam Godson (32m 58s): I would say the paradigm of like open systems versus closed systems, you know, we definitely bias towards open and so we want to be open. So a good example is video interviewing. So certainly that's become hot. We have an app or integration with Zoom, Teams, Skype for Business, Blue Jeans, a WebEx, but then if someone has none of those, then we also have our own data as well. And so we're not precious about any of that. It's all about solving problems for the client. And $40 million in your pocket doesn't hurt either. Hey guys, really appreciate you stopping by again, Josh Zywien, JZ and Adam Godson over at Paradox. Adam Godson (33m 35s): If people want to find out a little bit more about you guys, maybe connect with you, or I don't know, maybe this whole Olivia thing you're talking about, where, where should they go? Josh Zywien (33m 45s): Yeah. The website is paradox.ai, I think by the time this podcast publishes, we'll actually have a new fancy looking website. So give us feedback, let us know if you can find what you need and go Browns by the way. Joel (33m 57s): Hell yeah. Chad (33m 57s): Excellent dude. We appreciate it guys. Joel (34m 1s): Thanks guys. Adam Godson (34m 1s): Thanks guys Josh Zywien (34m 1s): Thank you guys. Joel (34m 3s): We out. Josh Zywien (34m 3s): We out. OUTRO (34m 27s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

You want the best? We got the best! In this interview for RECFEST World One, Chad & Cheese bring two of the most influential figures pertaining to recruitment and A.I. Jobvite CEO Aman Brar and This Way Global founder Angela Hood have a chat about all things tech in employment. Get ready for 25 mins. of must-see recruitment gems to take your strategy to the next level. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions connects jobseekers with disabilities with employers who value diversity and inclusion. Introduction (1s): Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad (1m 18s): There we go. Hello everyone out there from Recfest One World. I am Chad Sowash and that is Joel Cheesman. We're the Chad and Cheese, HR's most dangerous podcast. Welcome to a no bullshit discussion about the future of HR tech today. Our guests are Angela Hood, founder and CEO of startup. ThisWay Global, aka, AI 4 Jobs. You might remember Angela from Brew Review, recorded at the Last Chance Brewing Company just outside of Austin, Texas. Then we have Aman Brar, CEO of big time applicant tracking system, you know them, on his shirt, Jobvite. Aman is a long time listener, not a first time caller. Aman, is this the first time we've actually talked, recorded without being in a bar? Aman (1m 22s): I think it's very possible, yes. But it's good to be with you all in our virtual bar. At a minimum, alcohol was within 20 to 30 feet of where we were. It was very accessible. Joel (-): I think you just described London. Chad (1m 36s): Alright. We don't have a lot of time, so let's get to the questions. Joel, you're first out of the gate. What'd you got? Joel (1m 42s): Yep. So, so few know AI more than you guys do in terms of your business. I'm curious about the state of AI. Where are we versus a year ago and where is AI going in regards to employment and recruiting. Angela first. Angela (2m 26s): Alright. I will tell you, a year and a half, two years ago, I would start talking about it and people's eyes would glaze over. And they would say, "I don't really know what you're talking about." And then about a year ago people are like, "Alright, now I'm getting smarter about it." They'd heard more. At least for our business, it wasn't until 2020 when people went, "We are going to have to use it because that's how we're going to keep up." And they've gotten a lot smarter and they are a lot quicker to adopt it now. Joel (2m 27s): I'm more interested in the nuts and bolts of AI. Are we just throwing Microsoft and Google into this thing and saying we have AI, or is it more evolved than that? Angela (2m 36s): Well, for us, we've been proprietary from the very beginning. I don't think a lot of AI is built... Most AI is built for general use, not specific use, and we really need specific AI inside our sector. So we did not apply, like you said, the Microsoft tools and whatever. I think that there's probably a lot of companies that are doing that. I know there's a lot of companies that are licensing things like IBM Watson and calling it something different. And when we go up into like bakeoffs with those companies, we win. Angela (3m 10s): And I think it's because we built our tech for purpose, for very specific use. And we spent two or three years in dedicated R&D for it, Joel (3m 21s): Aman, state of AI. Aman (3m 21s): I think Angela hit on something, which is the purpose built nature of what the folks in the ecosystem are doing is what matters. Ultimately, I think it's kind of less important. My personal opinion is you ought to be using the best of what's available and also tailoring your solution. I don't think there's one company in the HR tech ecosystem that can hold a candle to the total compute power that Google, Amazon and Microsoft have. Now it's our responsibility to be asking the right questions, to create the right insights, to point that compute power towards moving the needle with HR tech. Aman (4m 1s): Now, is there a room for proprietary software? Absolutely. We've talked about this before, Joel and Chad, how do we dissect a tech string and how do we break that down to its parts. Or we were the first to launch our magic resume process using machine vision. But we'd be silly to go create with a machine vision on our own, right? But we found a very novel use case for it, or the way we de-identify resumes and transcripts. At the end of the day, I think it's about bringing all those bits together. And I think it's less important ultimately as to is it proprietary or are you leveraging the compute power that those trillion dollar companies have to offer. Chad (4m 43s): Nobody saw COVID coming. Go figure, right? But we know hiring is going to ramp up at some point. Talent acquisition will not receive a pass if they aren't ready. So when the hire now switch is flipped will the hiring process look different or will it be same as it ever was? Aman? Aman (5m 3s): Some much of this is kind of probably vertically based, right? I think there were companies that were already embracing asynchronous ways of engaging with candidates. They're embracing mobile technologies, embracing automation, video, those types of things. I think those things are here to stay. Quite frankly, I think it probably moves the needle more with some of the laggards, right? I think the laggards, kind of a ladder part of the change curve has been forced into digitizing their process. I think that creates opportunity for everybody in the HR tech ecosystem. But I think for the progressive companies that were at the forefront of their recruiting practice, it's an evolution and refinement. Aman (5m 40s): But I think we're going to see the biggest change is some of the old line types of companies that are being forced to dramatically digitize across, whether it's how they engage with customers or whether it's how they engage with candidates. I think there's a lot of change left on the horizon. Chad (5m 59s): Do you think they're ready for the scale though? That's the big question. Are they ready for all the scale that they might get hit with when hiring managers are pretty much at the point, we need to hire now and we don't have ramped up recruiting teams? Aman (6m 12s): Yeah, probably not quite frankly. This probably goes in the category of this would be a great problem for a CEO to be focused on solving as work through this. I do think, for example where this has really hit home, healthcare customers, they've been certainly preparing a little more rapidly for the need to kind of ramp up. But I don't think universally we're ready, but I do think that there are pockets and corners of the ecosystem that are preparing to ramp. Chad (6m 46s): Angela, this is more on the scale adoption side of the house. Now you guys have seen some huge adoption within the last six, nine months or so. Is that because people are finally getting it or is that because COVID has made pretty much the market come to you because they need solutions to help them scale? Angela (7m 11s): I think two fronts. It started at the beginning of this year. And then for us, at least mid-March to April was dead. People were still talking to us, but they didn't even know what to talk to us about at that moment. And then around late May, early June, it became a growth experience that we've never had before. We went from about 32 customers to over 400 in a matter of six months. And I think we'll probably break 500 by the end of the year based off of what we're seeing. Angela (7m 46s): The type of company is broader than it used to be. It used to be primarily only enterprise. And now we're seeing a much broader range. And we're also seeing that... The companies are trying to do more with less. They've laid off some of the recruiters and applicant volumes went up about the same time that extra benefits dropped off. And so they're seeing that some jobs that had 200 applicants before I have 1,000 to 1,200 applicants now. Angela (8m 15s): Part of it is just trying to get through everyone. The other part of it is an eye on fairness. So companies care now more about being unbiased and making sure that they have diversity in their selection process because the public is punishing companies that don't do something about it. Chad (8m 39s): Do you think that there's a government stick there too, or is it really just more public? Angela (8m 44s): Well, I know that the CCP compliant companies definitely are a big push into our company. So I know that there's something around that. So that would be government related it. And the threshold to be a government contractor is only a quarter of a million dollars a year. So you still want a lot of pencils to the US government if you're going to hit that. So that's part of it. And then I think the other part is grants have to care about the candidate experience. You can not have the level of unemployment that we have right now and continue to have black holes for applicants. Angela (9m 20s): Those applicants are oftentimes your consumer. They're your customer. You don't treat them fairly they will remember. They will go to someone else. Joel (9m 28s): Guys. I'm curious about the platform question. I know Aman is canvas. You were integrated with a lot of ATS's and platforms. Angela, I know it's a big part of your business. We did a whole podcast on the Salesforce integration. Aman, I know it's a focus for you guys now to build out that platform, to have those solutions. I'm curious, particularly from Angela, do you see threats in this model? Can you live without it? What has it meant to your business? And Aman, how focused are you guys on building this thing out? Joel (9m 60s): How important is it to your customers? And are there maybe future platforms that we don't see, the chatbot phenomenon, for example, could be a future platform model. Looking for your thoughts on that. Angela? Angela (10m 14s): Yeah, I mean, we care very deeply about our ATS partners, our CRM partners. So we don't take those partnerships lightly, and we look at it as we're an OEM that should be kind of like an Intel processor and a computer. We want to sit inside the ATS and the CRMs and make it better. So that part of the relationship is very important for us. We do have our own platform that we're launching in about 30 days. And anyone that's listening to this is welcome to apply to be part of the beta for free. Angela (10m 46s): And this allows them to use our platform independent of an ATS. A lot of it is really intended to help make sure that they get the product validation they need before they do an integration. But our preference is to go to where our user is sitting. Our user is typically sitting inside an ATS, and we want that experience to be the best for them. The more seamless we are inside that ATS is what matters to that customer. That's it. If they have a better experience, they're going to have the stress reduction. Angela (11m 18s): We're looking for have value in our product, but it's reliant upon companies like Jobvite to partner. If they don't partner effectively and partner strongly, then it's hard for us Joel (11m 33s): Aman. Aman (11m 33s): Yeah. I think, you know, that role, the talent acquisition function, the complexity continues to increase, right? So there's everything from recruitment, marketing and messaging, the basic source of record and the process. And I think the platforms have to evolve with the complexity of the job. I really think that's what is driving the platform sale right now is just the increasing complexity. I think one of the benefits, I think it's an opportunity through COVID is once you get on a platform and you can consolidate the data story and help the talent acquisition function actually participate in the business conversation. Aman (12m 11s): Right. And that's really where we're absolutely headed, right, is how do we drive and, and be champions for RTA leaders to drive business outcomes. And I think ultimately having the breadth and depth in one platform allows for a lot more of that data and that story to come together. With that said, it will be important, just as it always has been, to partner with, you know, the point solutions that are in this space. We all know lots of innovation will be driven by folks that are narrowly focused on trying to, to upend one particular portion of it. Aman (12m 46s): I do think Joel, to your point that, you know, look, no doubt we're kind of in some phase of a, of a UX transformation, right. That's shifting away from clicking buttons to one that feels more natural, and conversational, and orientation. Whether that's the chat bot for the candidate or whether that's just the way a recruiter gets something done right. At the end of the day, you know, I think we'll move past button clicks into things like commands, right. Aman (13m 16s): And things like phrases that allow you to, to move through a process, whether you're a recruit or candidate. Joel (13m 27s): Do you see the platform remaining free or do you, do you find that that'll be a revenue source for you at some point? Aman (13m 32s): It's a good question. As far as plugging into the platform overall, Joel? Joel (13m 35s): For example, a fortnight and Apple are right now in a big battle in terms of revenue and what they're giving to Apple. On the ATS side, some charge some don't, I'm pretty sure yours is free at the moment, but I'm curious, do you think all of these things will have a tax at some point? Or do you think they'll remain free based on consumer demand? Aman (13m 53s): Yeah. It's, you know, look, I think it's a great question. I think it's a business model choice. I Actually think both are probably going to be possible and present in the marketplace. And you know, there's probably an Avenue. I mean, we're fortunate in that no single player kind of owns 99% of the revenue share of the profit. Joel (14m 18s): There is no iPhone. Aman (14m 18s): So I think if there is, we might have a challenge there. I do think that to me, the important platform question for all of us is that, you know, one thing is we really want to express the industry and this is beyond Jobvite, but for all of us and certainly our competitors, you know, talent acquisition teams deserve to work with companies that really care deeply about talent acquisition. And I think, you know, one of the things we are gonna continue to fend off by educating the business world is if you go all in on ERP's you're certainly going to miss out on talent acquisition expertise. Aman (14m 54s): That, by the way, it's not the RP's fault, that's our fault, right. As a collective industry for not driving enough conversation around business outcomes. So I think we've got a heavy lift ahead of us and that, to me, that's the really relevant platform question for the industry right now. Chad (15m 10s): Yeah. So how has this, Aman, changed your roadmap? I'm sure it is a hundred percent different or is it, is it different from what it looked like in January? What's your roadmap look like? Aman (15m 22s): Yeah, I would say not a hundred percent different. I mean, look, no doubt we both believed in asynchronous messaging technologies pretty early in this, we believed in different ways of screening candidates that didn't require face to face meetings or even 30 minute phone calls. So certainly that part of our business continues to accelerate. We talked a lot about, as you can recall, a year and a half ago, kind of all in, on driving business outcomes via data, if you think about remote hiring, that's one thing I think about remote talent acquisition, right? Aman (15m 54s): Data is more important than ever in order for them to start articulating their own value to your right. So I think, you know, quite frankly, our roadmap is pretty tight and we feel like very much, you know, on track what's been important for us is, you know, for example, I, I think, I think we're still in the early waves of messaging and a UX transformation around, you know, Chatlight concept. So how do you embed that more? You know, we've been really focused on embedding those technologies more deeply across telemetry and Jobvite. I think there's a lot of that. So I wouldn't say, you know, a lot of, a lot of disruption to our roadmap. Aman (16m 27s): I think we were fortunate to have good insights there and have had more progressive customers that were pushing us, you know, in that environment. And as you all are speaking to folks, I'm sure you're seeing the same thing. A lot of the folks that, that were more progressive, you know, they're talking about how productive they're being through COVID-19 and that's because they were kind of ready for this digital economy. Then the question is how, how quickly can we help our other customers catch up? Right. So I think that'd be a lot of the story. Chad (16m 53s): And then startups are a little bit more right for acquisition too, which kind of changes roadmap too, to an extent I would say, so Angela, you being on the rear end being more startup early I'm I would assume that, you know, your roadmap has changed considerably. Am I wrong? Angela (17m 12s): No. I think probably a lot more than JobBite or a company that's been in the ecosystem for longer. So two things that we made pretty big changes in is that we had a longterm plan. 2023, we were going to introduce how to help the job seeker present what their real skill set is because most people have terrible resumes. And so he said, okay, like, how are we going to help them look better? Angela (17m 43s): So we kind of flipped our tech upside down and the AI part of it and said, ah, we've been helping job descriptions be more accurate and helping them remove the bias out of that process. So let's do this for the job seeker as well. Let's move that up. So instead of putting it in 2021, we put it in 2020. We used the downtime in late March, April, and May we used that time and we launched what it's called a career companion and that's in the Android and Apple stores. Angela (18m 14s): And so got that out. It doesn't do matching yet. Right now, it's just onboarding and we're checking to make sure their user experience is really good for candidates and we've had cities coming to us. So I was just on a road show this last 10 days, traveling around to different cities and actually talking to leadership about deploying our matching at a city level because the workforce commissions are not cutting it right now. They can't keep up with the load. The tech was not built for that. Angela (18m 45s): Some of the biggest job boards have come to us and said, Hey, can you help us just power the matching? Because we, we can match all people to all jobs instantly, and then also not have any bias in that matching. And that right now is what they're looking for from us. We are very focused on the top of the funnel and we don't do anything else. We only do matching. And so when cities come to us, they're saying we have 10,000 people that are unemployed, or we have 50,000 people that are unemployed. We need to get all the jobs in. Angela (19m 15s): We need to figure out how to make the matches happen. And we've gone through some initial testing and generally we're making about 32% increase in qualified matching. And this is primarily people that are being overlooked for jobs they're qualified for. And a lot of it has to do with companies did not keep up with our technology of the last five years or so. And they're behind. And, you know, I hope that companies won't invest in platforms because I honestly feel like our technology sits the best inside a platform where a user is using technology day in and day out. Angela (19m 53s): Gets very used to, it is getting the business outcomes that they need and the value they need. But if they don't want to do that, for some reason that they're going to be able to use our tech on the side and that way we can dress a bigger part of the market at a time where I feel like our role is to help the workforce to get back to work. Like we need to play a significant role in this and not just sit back and say, well, we'll just sell tech to the enterprise cause that's our ICP. Really? We, we have the capability to power this back to great, greater success faster. Angela (20m 28s): And I think that, you know, you made a good point when you said it's up to us, we need to play an active role. We can not just sit back and not take ownership, letting ERP's come in and try to say, Oh yeah, we're going to do the same thing as an ATS is absolutely wrong. It's not specific. It's not built for purpose and it won't drive outcomes they need. Chad (20m 52s): Joel you got the last ones, quick hitters. Joel (20m 53s): Alright, last one. What's the future? What are customers wanting? What do you see trending? Chad (20m 60s): Oh, we lost Joel. What do you see trending? Let's finish it out that way. Aman hit it. Aman (21m 6s): Yeah. You know no doubt, and then no surprise. I think where we continue to be, you know, all in, on a kind of data oriented strategy, we think our breadth and depth gives us really great fuel for data to drive our machine learning and data science efforts. I think one of the shifts we're seeing is how do we make the conversation really less about software and more around insights and conversations and outcomes that we're trying to drive with the organization. So, you know, that takes a cultural change, both within our company and the ecosystem, et cetera. Aman (21m 36s): You know, I think Angela, we're both alluding to the fact that, you know, we have to partner with RTA leaders to help them continue to get a seat at the table. You know, at the end of the day, I've made this claim. A lot, many CEOs will talk about talent being their biggest problem. At the end of the day, I would say, you know, follow their efforts. So when CEO's articulate talent is their biggest problem, the reality is when they say cash in the banks is the biggest problem they're working with their CFO and they're visiting banks, and they talk about sales being my biggest problem, they're out there trying to go drive and close deals. Aman (22m 9s): And quite frankly, I think this many CEOs that tout talent is our biggest problem. Don't know the first thing about, you know, their funnel, their stack, that people on their TA organizations. And we have to help our TA teams elevate their game to go have those conversations internally and earn that seat at the table. And if we don't do that, you know, we're, we're all gonna suffer for it at the end of the day and, and ultimately candidates. So I think that's all part of the charter and the mission that I want. Chad (22m 36s): Yup. Quickly, Angela. Angela (22m 38s): Yeah. One of the trends that we're seeing is that people that are in charge of diversity and inclusion and the TA tech leadership that starts reporting to the CEOs, that's, who's buying from us because they've got budget, they've got power, they have decision making authority. And I see those companies they're leading and they're winning the talent. Cause they're making some really smart decisions, not just about us, but about other companies. And I see a bigger demand for applications to work on mobile because the home situation trying to teach kids, you're like, yeah, I don't know what I've gotta be like outside in the yard to take a call or try to talk to a candidate or whatever. Angela (23m 20s): And I think the drive for mobile and the drive for tech that does not consume all of their bandwidth, they're going to be really critical for, especially in the next 12 to 18 months. Chad (23m 30s): Excellent. Joel, close this out. You just got back. Aman (23m 33s): Yeah. I had, I had a cattle prod, the gerbel to get the wifi going again. Yeah, guys, we appreciate it for those watching work. And I find out more about Jobvite and more about This Way Global? Angela (23m 46s): So I'm going to give you my personal email address, Angela@thiswayglobal.com ask me for a free trial. Aman (23m 51s): Pretty easy to find us on your favorite social channel. I don't think we're on tiktok yet, but hopefully we can change that. But look, look for Jobvite on your favorite social media channel. You can certainly follow me @amandbrar on Twitter as well. Thanks everybody. Chad (24m 6s): We appreciate it. Outro (24m 8s): Thank you for listening to what's it called podcast with Chad, The Cheese. Brillant. And the talk about recruiting, they talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. And yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, but one. Chedder, blue, nacho, pepper jack, swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. Outro (24m 40s): So weird. Any who be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grub Cheese is so weird. We out.

While cooling fall temperatures are sneaking up on us, the world remains a hot mess - Trump gets 'The Rona,' R.I.P. Eddie Van Halen and flies love V.P. Mike Pence - and the podcast keeps it spicy. This week, AllyO and HireVue aka "Dead and Bloated" Unleash (HR)wins big Glassdoor wants to put a number on equality Indeed isn't acting like Indeed - who is behind the wheel? and strippers are taking matters into their owns hands (and laptops). Who needs a champagne room anyway? Hey, no touching! As always, The Chad & Cheese Podcast is powered by Sovren, JobAdx and Jobvite. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. SFX (0s): Great. Now I get to be a stripper. INTRO (18s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (37s): Oh yeah. Dude, hours after our last podcast, and Trump gets the COVID. God! What happens this week? Well, let's find out. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Everybody. I'm your cohost Joel hot for teacher Cheesman. Chad (39s): And I'm Chad "Jamie's crying" Sowash. Joel (49s): On this week's show, AllyO comes into view, Glassdoor puts a number on workplace DNI, and strippers are taking back the power! Chad (-): What? Joel (52s): Quit running with the devil and dancing the night away. Go ahead and jump. We'll be right back. SOVREN (1m 1s): Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com, that's S O V R E N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren - software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad (1m 27s): Curses 2020. Joel (-): Panama! Chad (1m 31s): So Eddie Van Halen, 65 years old, dies of cancer. Go figure in 2020. 2020, the Grim Reaper fucking buffet special. Joel (1m 42s): Yeah, I won't even say what I said off, off camera or offline about who would be next because I'll jinx, the world, but dude Van Halen, I remember so, quick memories of Van Halen, 1984 comes out. Chad (-): Yes. Joel (1m 59s): You and I are conveniently 13 when this album comes out. We're prepubescent teenagers. Chad (-): Full of hormones, dude. Joel (2m 3s): This album for me, was really revolutionary. It was, it was dangerous, but your parents accepted it because, oh, is that cute song Jump that was on the radio? You know, they didn't know that the baby on the cover was smoking a pack of Marlboros. They didn't hear the rest of the album. It just, it was just a really cool record. MTV was coming into view. The video jump was great, Hot for Teacher, Panama. Like they mixed rock and, and accessibility with like humor and, and just a lot of class and, and pomp and circumstance. Joel (2m 41s): I honestly haven't followed them for 30 years, 25 years. But for that brief moment in time, they were the best band in the world in my eyes. And I will still hold to this day outside of maybe the baseline to Billy Jean, the guitar riff on Beat It, is the best thing on Thriller. Prove me wrong. Chad (3m 0s): Oh, Yeah, you can't. It's Eddie Van Halen. I mean, who's going to out guitar, who's going to out riff Eddie Van Halen? I mean, obviously there are plenty - Stevie Ray Vaughan and there's some amazing guitars out there, but Eddie Van Halen, no question, going down in history easily as one of the best guitarists ever and this week, I've done nothing, but sit in, listen to live van Halen. Chad (3m 31s): And I, and I remember when David Lee Roth left after 1984, I was like, these guys are done. I mean, who are they going to get to actually feel his, his shoes had amazing voice. Sammy Hagar comes in and I'm like, dude, he can't keep up with what David Lee. Oh no! Joel (3m 43s): He can't do the splits. What? Chad (3m 45s): Oh, he did. Oh yeah. He didn't need the splits. He didn't need that shit. He had tequila, and that motherfucker could just go. So yeah, Van Halen after David Lee Roth, the Van Halen brothers and, and, and Anthony, those guys just, they kept rolling. Joel (4m 2s): Yeah. Eddie was the motor behind all that. And what, what a great musician, showman. I mean, from the guitar designs to the clothing, to the, I mean, he played synthesizer on Jump and I mean just a really brilliant guy and really sad that he, he left us at such an early age. So rest in peace, Eddie. I'm sure you're up somewhere jamming with Jimmy and the rest of the guys and having a good time. Chad (-): Alright. Shout Outs! Joel (-): Shout outs. Let's do that! Bell (4m 32s): ding, ding, ding Chad (4m 37s): Eddie O'Neal over at Symphony Talent in Jacksonville, Florida, and Neill, with two L's Dunwoody from Titan Talent Services in Monahan, Ireland. Thanks for listening and connecting gents. Now make sure that everyone, you know, subscribes to the Chad and Cheese, wherever they listen to podcasts, or we're just going to chadcheese.com. You can listen there too. Joel (5m 1s): Nice, nice. Shout Out to Shannon Pritchard, Shannon, who used to be at well source con and ERE has been at Career Crossroads for a year and she celebrated her first anniversary with them. They're a great organization, great people. So Shout Out to her. And by the way, a little known fact about me, Barbara Reese, who works for a Career Crossroads hired me in this industry back in '97. So a little bit of a little bit of trivia about me and Barbara Reese and my connection to Career Crossroads. Chad (5m 32s): And I can guarantee you, Barb is saying, don't tell anyone that shit. Joel (5m 38s): They're saying, well, why Barb? Why? Chad (5m 56s): Why? Hey, big Shout Out again. To Madison Butler, this lady draws a crowd. I posted the stop hiring a racist podcast on LinkedIn. And who knew that a young black woman speaking her mind would bring so much love and hate? Joel (6m 1s): Now, what what's that? What's that thing up to now, 20 some thousand? Chad (6m 3s): 27,000. Yeah, but I mean, the thing that kills me is that we saw fake accounts on Twitter and you see that. I mean, that happens and it's easy to see, but that kind of shit's happening on LinkedIn, where these fake accounts are being created. They're networking to each other. They're getting people like us that connect with just about anybody, because they want to be hyper connectors, which I don't think you or I really give two shits about. But anyway, they build up their following to an extent to seem like they're real people and they're not. Chad (6m 37s): It's nothing but trolling. And there's a network literally that find people like Madison and do everything they possibly can to keep her down and keep her voice out, attacking us, attacking her. And it's just like, yeah, I'm just, it's easy. Just block these fuckers. Joel (6m 57s): Yeah. Do you have any like deep seated conspiracy theories around this? Do you think like organizations are creating bots to frustrate and disheartened champions of diversity and inclusion? Chad (7m 24s): Well they did it during the 2016 election. That was fairly simple. I mean, they were trying to suppress black voters in this case, just taking it, you know, maybe a step or half a step and starting to try to suppress black voices. Joel (7m 25s): Who do you think they is? Chad (-): They're a bunch of Nazi fucking assholes. How's that? Joel (7m 33s): Dark. A Shout Out to Mike Cohen, we know him as Batman, but he was, he was really a generous this week. I got this little app startup thing. He called poach.ai. I don't talk about it much on the show, but Batman tweeted out that he liked the service so far and it was doing really well and people should definitely check it out. So that was big in my book. He doesn't just do that with anybody. So Mike, we appreciate you, man. Keep batting on. Joel (8m 2s): And October 31 coming, that's probably Batman's prime time, man. Chad (8m 6s): And this is all post COVID for him. I mean, remember he had it, so he's, he's coming out. He's swinging Joel (8m 12s): Good Point. Chad (8m 13s): It's good that he's, he's at least feeling healthy. Joel (8m 16s): Love the Batman, love the Batman Chad (8m 18s): On, on a sour note. I'm sorry, kids, but Gordon Collier posted on Twitter last night that he said I'm salty tonight. Officially I'm shutting down my career fit. #COVID19sucks. And if you remember the Alexa firing squad with Gordon Collier, this is what we're talking about. We're talking about My Career Fit, which is an Alexa mainly based, also worked with, with the Google assistant. Chad (8m 49s): But it's a, it helped companies get their voices out there to candidates wanted to use more voice. And unfortunately it looks like it's gone. Joel (8m 59s): The site is still up by checked it. Maybe had a moment of bitterness. Maybe he'll come back, come back to the living. I don't know. But yeah, Gordon's a huge fan of the show. He's obviously listening. So Gordon, yeah. Send us an update and we'll, we'll let the people know what's going on. We know that startups are hard and you and I have for, since we started the show, tried to been a champion of startups and give these folks a voice, you know, where they can't get one on the, the mainstream, you know, HR press. And we try to shine a light on these guys and it's sad to see them to see them go. Joel (9m 32s): So Gordon, we know you're out there, send us an update, get us, give us more color around what's going on? Is it just COVID and businesses is dead or is there something deeper than that? I'd certainly like to know. And I'm sure some listeners would also. Speaking of startups, I'll go ahead and Shout Out a company called rec text full disclosure. I'm an advisor for these guys, but they're a text messaging company, similarly, similar to a sponsor Emissary of the show. Joel (10m 4s): But these guys, I won't just, you know, give away too much, but they have the typical rollercoaster ride of a startup. And they recently had some big wins and they are encouraged by that and empowered to keep going. So startups out there, obviously with Gordon are having issues and challenges, but they're also success stories. And I just wanted to share that a little tidbit of success out there for those startups that are maybe needing some, some encouragement to keep going. Yep. Chad (10m 31s): Well, Adam Conrad, who is, is heading out the Great Recruiters. We just dropped a firing squad podcast this week. Adam warned people on his LinkedIn page to prepare for some not, safe for work podcasting and David Searns CEO over at Haley Marketing replied back. Yeah, I don't mind at all. I'm a big I'm a big fan of Chad and Cheese. One of the few podcasts I listen to regularly. Chad (11m 2s): Boom. Glad to hear it, David. I hope it's mandatory listening for all of Haley Marketing. Joel (11m 7s): All right. Well from cussing and bad language, let's jump to Beer Drop Beer Drop, your new promotion. It has its own website. It's so huge. Head out to beerdrop.net, not.com. We couldn't get that beerdrop.net. Sign up. Give us your address for a chance to win. Yeah, you guessed it. Free beer. Everybody. Beer dropnet. Go there. Now. Chad (11m 32s): Beerdrop is is something that John Thurman likes. He actually tweeted out. Hey Chad and Ceez, why didn't I think of offering free beer before is beyond me? Well-played gents. Well-played hashtag #bigOktoberfestfan and #signmeup. Well, John, sign yourself up, man. It's not just about beer. It's also tee shirts. You can opt into mobile news in your pocket, Chadcheese.com/free sign up for everything. Chad (12m 6s): That's what you want. You want everything! Joel (12m 8s): Trying to convince Chad to do a Chad and Cheese Speedo, but he has yet to, to agree to that. So I'm working on it, folks, working on it, hopefully by summer next year, Chad & Cheese Speedos. Chad (12m 21s): Events. We can go through Events real quick. So the going back to your RecTechs conversation, this is pretty cool, because the HR Tech investor panel, we did earlier this week. Any company or any one who actually cares about what investors think, what they're looking for, what they're not looking for, how to be a great founder and CEO, check out that reporting on my socials. We talked to investors in companies like ISIMS, who's very closely tied to Vista. Chad (12m 54s): Mike Willcheck the Chief Strategy Officer over there, an angel investor, from Hungary, Peter Balog, a managing partner over at Unifier Ventures in Germany, Manwell Encarnacion and David Geren from Bright Eye VC in France. So we had France, Germany, Hungary in the U S having conversations around not just about getting money, but if you're located in one of those areas, like most of our listeners are, what do you do? Chad (13m 27s): You know, everybody looks at the US as this big pile of money, but do you go after it right out of the gate? So we had some really good conversations around that. Wow. That's a lot of countries did a fight breakout. No you weren't on the call. Joel (13m 43s): Did you watch the debate last night? By the way? Chad (13m 45s): Oh my God. Yeah. Joel (13m 48s): Any, any tweets in, in verbal format you want to share? Chad (13m 52s): It was easy. I mean, as soon as the fly got stuck in Pence's fucking wig. I had to go up and take a picture of it. And then I started sharing it. I mean, Michael Mike Pence guys, just so that, you know, he's a fucking zombie. He is a corpse. He has no heart. He's a lying piece of shit. And you can tell because the flies just gather around corpse and pieces of shit. Yeah. Joel (14m 23s): Lying piece of shit. People don't know this. He's a son of Columbus, Indiana. Chad (-): Yeah. Don't remind anyone. Joel (14m 29s): Sorry about that. So my takeaway from the, the debate is that before Trump, every four years, this shit would happen. There'd be a little, you know, kerfuffle on TV and it'd be fun to watch. Now. It feels like every day is a shit show. And these debates just mean nothing. They're just reminders of how tired everyone is, man. This thing it's like the Apprentice, right? Like the Apprentice was fun for a couple seasons. It was entertaining by season four, they had to get Gary Bucy on the show, to get you to watch it, right? Joel (14m 60s): Like this is just it's lost its entertainment value. And it just pisses me off. Thank God for that fly. I died laughing if for two minutes, that fucking thing was on his head. Come on man! Fuckin' robot, you can't feel a fly on your head? anyway, Chad (15m 17s): In fisticuffs, I take Kamala any day. She would a bitch slapped that fucker so quick. Joel (15m 21s): And what was up with his red eye man? He had like some pinkeye shit and some, any let's just get to the News. Chad (15m 27s): COVID. Topics! Joel (15m 31s): AllyO Chad (15m 32s): Ally-E-O. Joel (15m 33s): Sure. I did the shred on it. I mean, pretty basic stuff. HireVue, we know is a pretty popular, very popular and successful video interviewing company. Obviously everyone's trying to get on the automation train AllyO, which I've been hearing for a long time, trying to sell the company, like shopping the shit out of what they're doing. Apparently all their competitors took a, took a hard pass. HireVue. Finally took the call and listened and acquired the company. Joel (16m 4s): So they'll integrate the AI chat bot, conversational stuff, scheduling all the things that we talk about AllyO tries to do. It's questionable. How good they, how well they do it, Allyo raised 64 million, I think. Chad (-): Yep. Joel (16m 21s): Most of that was last year, had a, B, they did not disclose they did not disclose the price tag, which tells me it was less than 64, probably quite a bit less than that. Someone I talked to in the chat bot convo, AI space said this was not a win either for AllyO or for the chat bot conversational AI industry. So take that for what it's worth AllyO as a brand will be gone probably by the time this podcast airs. Joel (16m 51s): And it looks like some of the employees will come. But if you look at LinkedIn on, in terms of the number of employees that AllyO has, it kind of looks like they've been calling the herd so to speak. So I'm not sure how many people are going to move over to HireVue. But yeah, it looks like a, a fire sale a little bit and good luck to HireVue integrating this stuff and being a platform of automation through the, from high to hired AllyO. Chad (17m 17s): Yeah. So from an anonymous industry source, I have a few points to share with you. AllyO was burning cash, like crazy, had to drastically reduce head count, let go of the lease of the office and pulled back on the product roadmap dramatically. Sales in the last six months were not great at all to be nice. They had to let go of their head of sales. He went packing the last day of Q2. Pretty much get your box and get the fuck out. Joel (17m 49s): Nice. Chad (17m 50s): Rumor was at the end VCs were all calling the shots. So it was like leadership step aside, VCs are coming in and this was a distressed sale and that's putting it nicely. There's no way they covered the 64, by rumors. In, in, in my opinion, there's no way they covered the 64. PE hub said it was a range between 50 and a hundred and I think the range means it was 50. And the big question is what was AllyO's problem. Chad (18m 22s): They had the money had smart people. What was their downfall? Joel (18m 25s): Ooo, it's all speculation. From my point of view, I know that the there's been a high level of abrasiveness from the at least one of the founders. And we've talked to Anket lovingly called spank it for our podcast so you can go back and listen to the archives. But yeah, I don't know if there's a disconnect between the technology and actually building a company and building a service for our industry and sort of getting it. Obviously it was a very competitive space so that, and they were competing with people that knew the business and knew the industry and had contacts. Joel (18m 58s): So that's a question I could only speculate on. I will say that I think that the tech was a little bit suspect. I went out just at curiosity sake. I want to, I went to Staples, which is one of their flag, you know, flagship brands on the site and decided to, to check out the, the, the bot. And so I went in and said, basically, you know, the basic, like, hello, I'm AllyO Staples, virtual recruiting assistant, blah, blah, blah. And then the question had asked me, was, would you like to find a job? Joel (19m 30s): Reply Y or N, hopefully I knew, yes and N was No. Why was he asking then, they didn't sort of speculate or signify that, so anyway, I replied N for no. And the reply I got was "Got it. Thanks for your interest. Goodbye!" With an exclamation point. So there wasn't even like, okay, well, would you like to know more about Staples or at least like, okay, well here's a link to join Staples, whatever program, or like, it was just "Got it. Thanks. Bye bye." Joel (19m 60s): Right. So they certainly did not seem to get the connection between branding user experience and the technology. And I'm assuming that may be carried over to a lot more of the product than just the yes or no are you looking for a job. Chad (20m 14s): During the investor panel that I talked about earlier, Peter, the angel investor from Hungary said that he looks for, the number one thing he looks for is not the tech, it's the founder. Leadership wins the day. And I had another source say, when I asked about leadership AllyO they said a quote, first time CEO, no industry experience, full of hubris, unable and unwilling to see his blind spots and led by the whip. Chad (20m 46s): So again, from an investor who mentors, founders, and these guys had a shit ton of cash people. The thing that I was able to just myself, kind of pull together and talking to a bunch of people is leadership, is everything. Focus is everything not trying to be all things to everyone, even though you have a shit ton of cash, it doesn't matter. We've seen startups burn out $18 million in 18 months. Now we've got, now we've got a 64 million who more than likely is not going to be able to cover. Chad (21m 20s): So that, from my standpoint, I hope that leadership takes a step back and they reassess and they learn from this because they're going to go out and they're going to do this again. Right. And I hope they do, and I hope they become successful, but they've got to get better at leading. Joel (21m 40s): Yeah, stop me if you've heard this before. Right? Like people, startups that come in that have no core competency around employment, have a really tough time being successful. So aside from everything you said, which is true, not understanding our buyer is a real hurdle for these companies and startups. Chad (21m 56s): Well, and the HireVue outlook, I see the problem with this play is that HireVue has been in the market for many years and they haven't been acquired. They have nearly a hundred million dollars in funding. They aren't turning into an ATS anytime soon, they have become a bloated point solution. And now they're bloated point solutions. So where does HireVue go? Nobody's going to buy them unless there's a huge HCM player who wants to try to get into the space. Chad (22m 28s): But there are so many players in the interview space who can partner with conversational AI to be able to try to do some of the things that HireVue is doing at a much, much, much lower price point. Joel (22m 48s): Yep. Yep. The moat around that business has, has dwindled and dried up. Oh, damn. Chad (-): There's no moat. Joel (22m 51s): Yeah. I was being nice. There's a little bit of a moat. There might be an alligator somewhere on the loose in that moat that might, that might get you. But yeah, the protection that business has had has gone away over the years and it's sort of coming to fruition. This sort of feels a little bit like a hail Mary to try to save things and become more of an automation platform, but it's Chad (23m 16s): Feels like Intello right when Intello also did the bundle buy of Joel (-): Convey IQ. Chad (23m 22s): Yes Convey IQ. They did the bundle and it was like, Oh, we're going to stay alive. Yes, for how long? Joel (23m 26s): Yeah. As, as close as the dinosaur snuggle, that meteor writes still still gets a man. It never, never fails. Never fails. Chad (23m 34s): But you know who's not a dinosaur. And they love to snuggle that's little rock. He's a snuggler man. Yeah. Joel (23m 43s): Snuggle man. He's not quite the hugger, but he's the snuggler. Chad (23m 47s): HR wins acquired by Unleash and Unleash is going to go into a new market. Dorsal rock, HR wins, acquired by Unleash. And George is now the SVP of insights moving on up. My man. Awesome. To hear and congrats to Mark Coleman and the rest of the Unleashed team as well for this smart pickup. I didn't think this was big at first. Then I sat back and, and I read more on the Unleashed site and I went, wait a minute, there's something here. Joel (24m 20s): Yeah. I mean, I think time will tell exactly what this means, but I mean, we know, we know George has sort of the, the eye in the sky on investment money and where capital's flowing. He was in charge of, or at least partly in charge of the U S operation for unleash. So there's, there's obviously some relationship there. There's some synergies there Unleash obviously wants to get into the U S and have someone with a core competency around our market to do that. But I think what I'm surprised about, and I think what you're going to elaborate on is, is sort of Unleash has taken this, this, you know, this virus, this pandemic, this, this horrible situation and said, we're going to grab the bull by the horns. Joel (25m 2s): And we're going to try to grow and gobble up market share and try to find opportunities where other people are, are, you know, fearful and, and under the table. And I think this is symbolic of unleash saying, you know what, there's an opportunity here, we're going to take it and George is a great piece to put into that. And to that business of the US obviously the, the data play with what George does with his surveys, with his, his money, you know, he has a team now he's got a fucking chart for everything. Joel (25m 33s): The guy takes dumps every week and he's got a chart for it. So I think putting that data into the conference side and to, I think probably the archive presentations that are there, I think all of it, it creates a really interesting, almost educational foundation that the company can really grow outside of events and be an intelligence tool, be an education tool, a subscription based business, maybe where, you know, you pay X per, per month. And if you're a premier, if you're an Unleashed plus member, you get to come to all the events for half off or free. Joel (26m 10s): I think it's a pretty genius move, but until this thing starts to unfold and they start announcing more of what it looks like, it's just promise at this point. But I think both of us are pretty excited about what it's going to be or what it could be. Chad (26m 22s): An opportunity to become a Rundle, reoccurring revenue bundling. I can see that all day. So here's, here's what I'm saying. It's a tale of two companies, E R E who we know as an, as an event company that does a lot of content. They tried to in events early, COVID about $1,500 per ticket. And from my understanding, it didn't go well, they had to cut head counts and they went into hibernation, right? So, so ERE made a decision. They said, look, what we're going to do is we're going to squirrel up our nuts and we're going to go into hibernation. Chad (26m 56s): So when that happens, kids there's a vacuum, right? And somebody is going to get pulled into that vacuum. Now, Unleash wants to get into the US. Wants to be able to take market share from a conference standpoint. And from a mind share standpoint, that was something that in ERE was very good at very early on. They had all these writers, all this content, the mind share was on ERE today. It's pretty much almost dead. It's on life support, right? Chad (27m 44s): So now Unleash, what do they do? I can see what's going on. We can start to build what ERE always wanted to be, and never really became unleash can actually make this happen. And with a guy like George at the helm here in the U S I think there's great promise for it. Joel (27m 49s): Yeah. George, George, George of the Jungle, did you say hibernating nuts can, can nuts hibernate because might've been hibernating ever since my vasectomy. Boom! Chad (27m 58s): And whenever Christine allows you to have them, Oh, let's hear from JobAdX, everybody. JobAdX (29m 33s): Doors are reopening and businesses picking back up with the workforce, making its come back and with many rebuilding their teams, are you prepared to engage the wave of returning job seekers? Whether you're struggling to fill high volume, hourly roles or looking for longterm full time talent, your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. 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Joel (30m 35s): Well, you're the DNI guy. Are you excited? Chad (30m 38s): No. Joel (30m 42s): Well, I'll give you my take and you can tell us why you're not excited. Chad (30m 44s): Okay. Joel (30m 44s): So there are a few takeaways from this. Neumber one is it's not real obvious where the scores are or where they can be found. This has been being tested for quite a while. So I went to the, the sites that they highlight, like Facebook, Salesforce, Google, and I can't find this rating anywhere. So I don't even know if it's public or what's going on. So that's a little bit of a it's, it'd be helpful if I could actually see it to comment on it. So unless I'm missing something, please, please let me know. The second one is I think, ironically, the new feature sort of discriminates, sorry to use that word. Joel (31m 16s): No pun intended, but against small businesses. Like I think it's, I think it's effective when you have a really big company, but when you have what, 80 plus percent of the job opportunities in this country are from startups and small businesses. I just feel like, you can have more data, there's more diversity just by the fact that you have more numbers so you're going to have a better score. So I just don't know if it hurts smaller businesses that it wouldn't that it shouldn't right. Like if I see, or if I see a company with a five star review, and I know that that is off of two reviews, I don't give it a whole lot of credibility. Joel (31m 50s): Right? If it's a five star review with three, 3000 reviews, like that has a lot of, a lot of weight with me, I'm not sure this score that's going to be that intuitive. The third thing I thought about was just the anonymity of it, right. You're asking departing employees, for example. And we know from the LinkedIn company meeting back in June, like you throw anonymity with a company feedback and all hell could break loose. So I think that is a, is an issue to think about. Joel (32m 21s): Whereas with reviews, if, if someone leaves a shitty review, like I can sort of use my brain to go, okay, that's either like sour grapes or somebody had a bad day, or that's just unrealistic. Or maybe even it's a seed, a seated, a reviewed to screw the company or something else it's kind of harder to do with the diversity score as far as like, you know, what's going on there. And then the fourth thing I thought of was like fucking Glassdoor, man, they're really good at PR this is a great PR play. It's also a great sales play, right? Joel (32m 52s): So if you can go into these big companies and be like, Hey, diversity score, promote your profile page, you know, continue to be a Glassdoor client because you're going to help your diversity inclusion, recruiting strategies. Like it feels a little bit like a PR marketing/sales play as well. And that's, those are my, that's my hot take on Glassdoor's DNI. Chad (33m 15s): So yeah, this is, I think it's just arbitrary nothingness and they're pandering to the DNI initiatives with complete and utter bullshit. Unless the company provides full transparency of their workforce composition, I mean, which companies don't, so orgs can say they embrace diversity. Okay. Then what are your numbers? If that's the case, then then demonstrate your numbers and be more transparent. What about retention of underrepresented populations? Chad (33m 46s): Any employee resource groups, what's the impact in purpose, culture and business? I mean, that's the thing is, is this is very surface oriented. It is cosmetic. And all Indeed, sorry, Glassdoor is trying to do is go out and rake up cash by saying DNI, that's all they're doing. This is worthless piece of shit. Don't do it. Joel (34m 13s): I think you said what I did, but much more to the point. I appreciate that. I appreciate it. Did you know that Google doesn't claim its company profile page on Glassdoor? I find that really interesting Chad (34m 23s): Much like our friend from red bull, it's all bullshit. Joel (34m 31s): He might've been on a few Red Bulls when he made that comment. Chad (-): Could of been, could have been. Joel (-): I could use a Red Bull. Chad (34m 34s): So we're talking about Indeed or Glassdoor, but, but also dragging Indeed, I received some, a actually an email this week. It was forwarded to me within a Glassdoor and Indeed integrated header. It was blue transitioning into that ugly ass green and it just, it was ugly. I thought it was fake. Yeah. That looked like a bad Fiverr contract worker. But it wasn't, and after receiving several comments from different companies, it seems like none of the Glassdoor and Indeed sales are actually coordinating. Chad (35m 9s): It's chaotic. There's a bunch of Indeed people trying to cross sell Glassdoor while glass doors, trying to do the exact same thing with different bundles in a quote from one of those people what's interesting is neither Glassdoor nor indeed reps seem to educated on what the other platform has to offer. Another another said, ah, we didn't like that. We wouldn't be able to direct our spend between Glassdoor and Indeed on the backend. Chad (35m 43s): Our Glassdoor rep said it was in beta testing right now. Not sure if it's going to be launched. Joel (35m 43s): Nice Chad (36m 0s): So, I mean, from my standpoint, this is a very big company that is having leadership issues because this is amateur stuff. If they're, if they are bundling it should be standard and simple so that salespeople can't fuck it up. Joel (36m 3s): Yeah. I mean, it, it sounds to me like a too many chefs in the kitchen situation and maybe different kitchens trying to throw stuff at the wall. Yeah. Leadership clearly a problem. I mean, we had layoffs pretty extremely off the Glassdoor earlier this year that is obviously impacting things. It sounds like maybe some salespeople are going rogue on their marketing stuff. I don't know the image that I saw of what you shared, like, looked like my 13 year old could have made it, but who knows? There's just, this just underscores to me like they can't gobble they can't swallow a Glassdoor quickly enough and get rid of all the duplicate moving parts. Joel (36m 42s): And if this is going on and just a simple email, imagine what's going on internally with ms. Communication and confusion and, and leadership, you know, Chris cross. Yeah. This is going to continue until they just cut ties with Glassdoor folks and make it all just Indeed Glassdoor or Glassdeed as we've called it in the past. Chad (37m 7s): Migrate those salespeople over to Indeed create a standard selling package and go! Next question there's none of this bullshit, cross selling things that don't fucking exist. Again, this is a leadership issue and unfortunately, one of those organizations is going to have to step the fuck up and standardize stuff. It not to mention to me, we talked about Indeed Flex last week. Joel (37m 28s): And they're listening, Chad, they're listening to, they're listening to us. They're listening Hi Indeed. Chad (37m 56s): But here's the thing they're doing so much stuff that is not Indeed-like they're putting out platforms that make no sense. They're not, they're not hitting the market the way they used to hit the market. The way that they won, they took over, they dominated the market. They're not doing any of that now. None of it! This kind of shit is just fucking amateur hour. And it blows my mind. Leadership is an issue. Joel (-): They have gone from starving junk yard, pit balls to little pussy poodles. And it's coming out in the marketing material. Whereas Paul Forrester, when you need him? God dammit. Chad (38m 43s): Call him back! Jobvite PROMO (38m 43s): Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com. SFX (38m 43s): Great. Now I get to be a skipper. Chad (38m 45s): Yeah, we haven't had a stripper story and at least, I don't know, two weeks. Joel (38m 51s): Two weeks, a month. Something like that. Geez. Chad (38m 53s): What the hell? Joel (38m 56s): Well, if you're looking for enterprising folks with, with a knack for entrepreneurial-ism look no further than your local strip club, everybody. We got a story out of LA this week, where strippers at. So they were, they were working at Jumbos Clown Room, Ron bro, that's gotta be a hooptie ass strip club, Jumbo's Clown Room. So they launched the Cyber Clown Girls. Joel (39m 28s): I haven't, I haven't tested the product. I don't know if they dress like clowns or pixelated clowns being cyber? Anyway, these girls said, look, they're waiting for someone to save their jobs, what they were doing and realized, Hey, we're going to have to save ourselves. So they're performing virtual strip teases, and they're doing it. I think on zoom, they're selling tickets through Eventbritet, but I mean, come on. This is America. Things are tough. The economy's down. Joel (39m 58s): Let's think intuitively let's be creative. Let's take our show to the internet. I applaud you strippers. Chad (40m 5s): They can scale at least, right? Because it's, it's, it's hard when you were in a place that can only hold like 20, good God, 20 people in pervert's row. Right. But if you're online and you can allow 200 people on pervert's row. Joel (-): Sure. Chad (40m 24s): There's at least the idea is scalable. The problem is that porn all over the internet is free. So guys can go get this wherever they want to. What's so special about that. If, if I was in their shoes, I wouldn't want some old fucker drooling all over me or some 24 year old getting handsy. So I think this is a safer option along with the, the drive through stripper story that we did a few months ago, I think there's the opportunity to evolve and do what they want to do. Chad (40m 55s): But I'm just not sure it'll gain traction. Joel (40m 57s): Yeah. I mean, look, these girls are no joke, right? Like in the story, they've got billboards at bus stops. They've got social media. I mean, they're working the angle, obviously, you know, porn can be had for free, but these aren't local girls they're appealing to, I guess, LA sensibilities. And it's working for them a few weeks ago. We talked about the drive through a strip club, right? Like you paid your fee. It was germ-free stay in your car. The girls perform for you, you got food. Joel (41m 28s): Yeah. I'm seeing all kinds of stories about OnlyFans, people making a living and six figure and you know, just big dollars for people who were, you know, waiting tables and delivering Amazon packages. Unfortunately, my OnlyFans page has got zero subscribers. So I'm doing something wrong or there's no, no demand for that supply. You know what I'm saying? But if you're interested, head out to onlyfans.com/cheese head and, and donate, just getting that does not exist. Joel (42m 0s): And We out. Chad (42m 0s): I need a beer and we out. OUTRO (43m 2s): Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

There are bad recruiters. There are good recruiters. And there are great recruiters. Founder Adam Conrad hopes his startup, Great Recruiters, will help agencies better manage recruiting teams and sorting through the best and worst performers. Better recruiters make for better candidate experiences too, so things sound pretty solid, right? Well, the Firing Squad will be the ultimate judge on whether this company is truly "great," or if it needs to be taken behind the barn and put out of its misery. Time to step-up to The Squad. Enjoy this PandoIQ exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. PandoLogic (2m 0s): Damn programmatic is hot! Yeah, it is hot Dude, pass me a cold PBR. Would ya? Okay. Number one, I wasn't talking about the temperature and number two PBR is a shitty beer time to upgrade to an IPA. Okay. My bad. Guessing you were talking about Programmatic Job advertising being hot. Yeah. That shit is everywhere and all the kids are doing. I know man, but there's only one company that's been doing it since 2007. Damn 2007. Hey man, what wife were you on? In 2007? I was on number one. We don't talk about her. Focus, dude. I'm talking about pandoIQ from our friends at PandoLogic. pandoIQs, Programmatic recruitment advertising platform helps employers source talent faster and more efficiently than ever thanks to predictive algorithms, machine learning and AI. Buzzword, overdose alert. Yeah. Pando was on the cutting edge of Programmatic, while being deeply rooted in the recruitment industry. pandoIQ provides an end to end Programmatic job advertising platform that delivers a significant increase in job ad performance without any waste spending to maximize the ROI on your recruitment spend. And their AI enabled algorithms use over 48 job attributes and more than 200 billion historical job performance data points to predict the optimal job advertising campaign. The machine does all that shit. That shit sounds expensive! Think again, Cheesman pandoIQ provides an end to end job advertising solution that delivers a significant increase in job ad performance without any wasteful spending. Sold! How do I get started? Go to Pandologic.com to request a demo and tell him Chad and Cheese sent you. Ooh. They have a chat bot too, that we can talk to. Oh, kill me now. FIRING SQUAD INTRO (2m 18s): Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad! CHAD SOWASH & JOEL CHEESEMAN are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they got what it takes to make it out alive? Dig a fox hole and duck for cover kids the Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel (2m 22s): Oh yeah. We're doing another firing squad on Monday, which is not a good thing. Chad (2m 30s): That's not good. Joel (2m 31s): Plus I'm really hung over from the Indy 500 yesterday, which was, that was a fun race. What up everybody? You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Cheeseman joined as always by my Batman to my Robin or something, Chad Sowash. Chad what's up? Chad (-): Waz up? Joel (2m 49s): On today's Firing Squad we are featuring Adam Conrad from Great Recruiters. Applause (2m 55s): Clapping Chad (2m 55s): Not, not like lousy recruiters. Joel (2m 58s): Not average recruiters. Chad (2m 60s): But good recruiters. Joel (2m 60s): Not Scrub Recruiters. Great recruiters Adam how are ya? Chad (3m 5s): There are expectations that are set right out of the gate. Joel (3m 6s): Yeah. You can't talk if you call yourself great. Adam Conrad (3m 8s): You're not great until somebody says you are in our case, it's at least 30 people with four stars. So we'll get into that. But I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Joel (3m 19s): Good deal, Adam, for, for those who don't know, you give us a little bit of a long gated tweet about who you are and then we'll get into the company. Adam Conrad (3m 57s): Yeah. Give you a little background. I've been in the staffing industry for about 20 years. Like many recruiters, I kind of fell into it, fell in love with it. I had managed recruitment teams was running operations for about a $40 million staffing firm. Handled their tech stack, their tech stack, I've always been an early adopter of technology and how it's going to help recruiters. And really for me, it saw the need to create more trust and transparency between candidates and recruiters and left that career in staffing to help better support the staffing industry and recruiters as a whole and launched Great Recruiters. Joel (3m 59s): I'm sorry. Did you say you love recruiting? Adam Conrad (4m 1s): I do love recruiting. Joel (4m 6s): Have you had a thorough head check on that one, Adam? Adam Conrad (4m 18s): No, we're all a little bit nuts. I mean, there's a lot of things you can choose to do, but I like people in the least we can help some people out. I mean, I know it doesn't have a great reputation, but hopefully I made it a lot better for many people out there. Joel (4m 20s): We knew you were a little nuts when you agreed to be on the show. Chad, tell him what he's won. Chad (4m 23s): Well, Adam, you are going to have two minutes to pitch Great Recruiters. That's right at the end of the two minutes, you're going to hear that bell. Bell (-): Ding, ding, ding Chad (4m 32s): Then Joel and I will hit you with rapid fire Q and A. If your answers start to ramble or you get fuckingg boring, you're going to hear the crickets. Crickets (-): Chirping Chad (4m 41s): That means tighten your shit up and let's get moving at the end of Q and A, you will receive one of three grades. Number one, big applause. Applause (4m 51s): clapping Joel (4m 51s): Pack up the Brinks truck. Chad (4m 54s): You'll be bathing in milk and being fed grapes on a private island by the end of 2021. But seriously, that just means that you did a great job. Number two, golf clap. Golf Clap (-): clapping Chad (5m 14s): We kind of dig what you're doing, but you're not there yet. And you're probably going to be the one feeding the grapes and last but not least FIRING SQUAD (5m 18s): gun shots Chad (5m 18s): Firing Squad pack up your shit, hit the bricks, pull up that drawing board, baby, because this ain't working and there's no private island insight for you in this pile of shit. That's Firing Squad. Are you ready? Adam Conrad (5m 31s): Too late to back out or are we ready to go? Joel (5m 35s): Let's do this, in three, two? Adam Conrad (5m 39s): Awesome. So Great Recruiters is an experience and reputation management platform built for staffing firms and recruiters. So we help firms and recruiters go faster through real time feedback. So what I've understood in my career is even the best recruiters get swelled up by an industry's bad reputation. You simply Google recruiters are: it's evil liar, scumbag, are some of the top results. And I know as a professional recruiter, that wasn't true for many recruiters out there. And I know there's a bunch that give us a bad reputation, but I wanted to put a platform in place that allowed recruiters to capture real time feedback, help them operationally learn from that feedback from the candidates that they serve, realize where there are issues so they can resolve those quickly and also to be able to promote the hell out of when they're doing a great job. Adam Conrad (6m 20s): So if you think about the way people buy today, people rely on reviews and data, they don't rely on what you tell them on your website. And so we helped you curate the information from the people that you're working with to help you promote and differentiate your brand in the marketplace. And the end result for many of our clients is that we're helping to drive and elevate, empower recruiters and their sales teams. They love the feedback. They love knowing where they stand. It's helping our companies prove the quality of their services. So don't take my word for it, see what other people think about working with me. Adam Conrad (6m 52s): It helps increase trust and transparency. We've got some cool tools that help you to overall improve your online reputation. And ultimately we want to help you attract more talent so you can make more placements faster. Joel (7m 2s): And they can find out more where Adam? Adam Conrad (7m 5s): Gosh, that's great. Yes. You can find more at www.greatrecruiters.com. Bell (7m 14s): ding, ding, ding Joel (7m 14s): Okay. Adam, walk me through this. So I'm a candidate. Is this a digital experience? Do I get emails and fill out surveys? Do I get a pen and paper together? Walk me through how this works, nuts and bolts. Adam Conrad (7m 32s): So the way it works is our client staffing firms they are soliciting real time feedback from candidates. So either throughout the recruitment process, process or placements. And so they'll receive an email request, simple, just, Hey, it was great talking to you, we'd love for you to share some of your feedback, click here to provide a review. And so every recruiter gets reviewed on five key areas. Are they genuine, responsive, experienced advisors and transparent? And that information comes into a main dashboard for operational, for recruiting management, to help understand where the recruiters are stacking up. Adam Conrad (8m 5s): And then we have the promotional side that helps you to easily share testimonials and reviews on your website and through, out social. Joel (8m 11s): Now, is this automated at all? Or does the recruiter or someone managing this for a staffing firm sort of go through and like, okay, who do we need to ask for feedback, like talk through that. How manual is it? Is it automatic? Adam Conrad (8m 24s): Yeah, actually there's two ways. So we're, we're building out our integrations. One of our deepest integrations is with Bull Horn, as well as with eRecruiter. We have open API so people can automate that feedback. We don't want people to have to work, to get the feedback. We want them to manage it, but we make it really simple for those that don't have the integration, they can simply just quickly upload a CSV of anybody to the place or anybody that I talked to that past week. And it fires out right from the system. There's also, what's really unique is there's a URL that every recruiter that they can embed into their email signature. Adam Conrad (8m 56s): Really it's the open door and call for action for feedback. So any recruiter engaging with any candidates out there that candidate has the opportunity to click that link and give feedback throughout the process. So it's a nice gentle reminder for recruiters to always put their best foot forward because let's face it nobody wants to get bad reviews or bad feedback. Joel (9m 17s): Gotcha. And what does the competitive landscape look like for you? Are there other people doing this? Are you the only one? Like talk about that. Adam Conrad (9m 24s): You know, when I talk to customers who have gone out there and researched, they certainly say that we're the only one doing it the way we're doing it. And we're doing it spectacularly. I think you run into, anybody can use a survey tool to ask for feedback, right? ATS is some are collecting NPS. You could use a survey monkey. You could, you know, call somebody up and ask for feedback. But the way we do it is really centered around the individual recruiters. And I think that's really unique because we're not asking for feedback on a company. Adam Conrad (9m 55s): We're asking your feedback with another human being that you're working with. So from that perspective, very unique, as well as our tools that allow you to not only need to take that information internal and make good decisions, but being able to take that and promote and market that information out there to the audiences you're looking to attract. Joel (10m 13s): Gotcha. Chad (10m 14s): Okay. So who is your target market? Adam Conrad (10m 17s): Yeah, our target market is we started in staffing. There's been a lot of interest in the talent acquisition. So I mean, any company that really believes in the candidate experience, wants to put position themselves kind of at the top of the market is ideal. We service across tons of different industries from executive search to labor and commercial healthcare staffing it engineering. So really it works really well depending, regardless of what industry you're in, because it's human to human, right. Adam Conrad (10m 47s): We're still people dealing with people. So we find that it works spectacularly well across all different verticals, but primarily our focus has been, as we launched is the staffing industry and recruiters within that industry. Chad (11m 3s): Okay. So talking to any top line recruiters, I mean, ones that obviously have the big names have been in this for a very long time. What's like yourself, they mostly agree that 95% of recruiters just fucking suck and they're hacking to want to be rated. And so it's like glass door companies fucking hate glass door and they feel like they have to use it. How are you going to ensure that recruiters not just use Great Recruiters, but they love Great Recruiters? Adam Conrad (11m 52s): Yeah. I mean, if you look at all right, you mentioned Glassdoor, right? That's the old way. That's people that are pissed off in the process that have probably not asked for their feedback on the experience. And they're looking for a way to get it off their chest. I mean, you just face it, you have a bad experience. You're looking to vent. And that's why we see that three out of four candidates who have a bad experience are going to share that. Okay. But only 10 of candidates that have a good experience are willing to share that unless they're asked. And so I think the key differentiator is we take it from that old way of just being passive, waiting, reacting, monitoring to an active approach, or you're actively soliciting that feedback. And then we, as I mentioned, bring that information in a way that allows you to promote and market those reviews and scores and really create transparency. So I don't agree that 95% of recruiters necessarily suck. Adam Conrad (12m 22s): I think that a lot of times recruiters get the short end of the stick. Maybe it's the hiring manager that didn't give feedback, right? I mean, a lot of times recruiters are the ones that are getting the brunt of it. And so through our platform, we want to let them know they're in control of that experience regardless of outcome. And when you know somebody's going to rate that experience, you're going to do better upfront to make sure that you're not part of that problem. And if you are, we give you the simple tools to be able to take action quickly and resolve those issues. Chad (12m 47s): So how do you take the recruiter out of this process through integration? So you talk about your integration with Bullhorn, which obviously pure, pure staffing play there, which is awesome. How do you ensure that the recruiter isn't the one who asked to hit the button because I could see recruiters say, Oh yeah, man, I'm sorry. I didn't, I didn't send out my reviews this week, which is why I don't have any reviews. Adam Conrad (13m 12s): Yup. And that's the problem we definitely want to solve. I mean, we don't want to put any extra work on the recruiter. So with our integration specifically, like for Bullhorn, we can trigger off what their existing workflow is. So recruiters are being measured on their submittals, on their interviews, on their placements. Those are the trigger points that already exist within their workflow. So we don't ask them to do any extra work. We just piggyback that process, identify what that trigger point is, and our system automatically sends that review request. Chad (13m 40s): OK, so what about the candidates who were not hired? Adam Conrad (13m 46s): Definitely. I mean, I think everybody through the process is able to provide that feedback either they're being asked for it because they've been submitted at one point or there's that OpenLink on the recruiter's email signature. So everybody really has the opportunity to share what their experience is. Joel (14m 3s): I wanna talk about sort of the psychology around this because... Chad (-): Oh shit. Joel (14m 7s): Why do job seekers care, right? Why would they care? And my, my sense is that they, they would give feedback in order to help themselves get the job and have a good relationship with a staffing firm. However, I also feel like they're going to skew on the positive feedback because they think negative feedback might lead to a poor relationship with the staffing firm. Am I right? Am I on track with that? Or what's been your experience with that? I assume you disagree with that, but I'm curious about it. Adam Conrad (14m 36s): Well, I don't disagree because we certainly have some recruiters that might need to, you know, reflect and see if this is the path that they really want to go down because the feedback isn't great. And I think what we do is digest it, bring the information on those five key areas. Did I, was I genuine understanding needs, did I follow up with you in a timely manner. Did I, you know, have experience and knowledge of your job in industry? Did I provide any advice and guidance? Was I transparent? Those are things that regardless of outcome, the recruiter can control, through communications, through updates. Adam Conrad (15m 9s): And so what we find is we do get a lot of positive feedback and that's not a bad thing. I think the problem is, and why there's such a negative reputation is because not enough people are asking. And so it's just those people who are upset, pissed off, that are going out there to those other anonymous review sites and they're venting. And so through Great Recruiters, we're giving everybody the opportunity to share that feedback. And we find that there's a lot more positive things that are happening than negative because we're centered on the experience with the individual, not the outcome of the search. Joel (15m 42s): Is feedback anonymous, or at least the perception of the feedback is anonymous or do people, or do reviewers know that there's a name on the feedback? Adam Conrad (15m 51s): No, I mean the reviewers know we surface it and it's many of our clients opt to ask for feedback from the recruiter's voice. So it's Adam would love your feedback or Hey, you worked with Adam, can you provide your feedback? We then have ability for them to say they want this to be public or private. So there is a belief that there's an understanding that this is positive information. This is, this is not anonymous. It's somebody specifically asking for that feedback on that experience with that individual. Adam Conrad (16m 21s): So there's no point in our process. It says, you know, keep this anonymous because there's enough of that. And you can't solve problems, you know, with anonymous feedback, when you get an anonymous, bad review, you spent all this time and energy trying to figure out who it is. Right? I know this person left, maybe it was them. And so much energy is wasted. And we're like, if you're willing to give feedback, then you should be willing to allow somebody to be able to intervene and resolve that issue If there is one. Joel (16m 47s): And I'm curious, you, you mentioned a partnership or I guess a prod product or partnership staffing referrals that you've, that you've, you've gotten into. Can you explain kind of what that is and how that benefits your clients? Adam Conrad (17m 0s): Yeah, definitely part of our review process. If the review is positive, we ask if you'd like to provide a referral and that was something we put in day one, just my experience as a recruiter, the number one reason you don't get referrals is you simply forget to ask. So our platform, if the review is positive, we simply say, Hey, is there anybody you'd like to recommend, to Joel? And if it's negative, we certainly don't ask that question. So we help to generate those referrals from the upfront review process. We're staffing referrals takes it on, is they'd bring in and anybody that refers, somebody becomes an ambassador to that brand. Adam Conrad (17m 35s): And so they're really, you know, referrals on steroid, where they're able to create these ambassadors through all the candidates that had great experiences and help manage that referral flow, drive jobs to them so essentially it's helping to make your, an extension of your own recruitment team. Chad (17m 52s): How does a staffing company see value from the platform? Yes, candidates are happy, but where does the ROI come from? Adam Conrad (18m 1s): You know, it's, I think there's two pieces of ROI. We do a ton of obviously in the, in the, the, the situation we're in right now with, with COVID and everything. Nursing has been an area where we've had a lot of focus. And so a lot of our companies in the travel nursing is they're realizing the ROI on placements from those referrals. You know, my wife being a nurse, they're not on LinkedIn, typically they have close networks. So when somebody has a great experience with a recruiter, they're going to recommend their friends. So I think from a direct ROI perspective, they see it right there. Adam Conrad (18m 34s): The other piece we have is every recruiter has a recruiter profile and they can use this profile in their introductions with new candidates out there in the marketplace. And we've heard more times than now that we've gone to a remote workforce you can't have that human to human interaction, that many recruiters are accustomed to. So how do you help somebody understand who you are, what people think about working with you, they can't meet you face to face. And so they're directly sharing this profile, say something like, Hey Chad, we haven't met before, but I help folks like you In fact, don't take my word for it check out what people think about working with me. Adam Conrad (19m 8s): And we're hearing more and more from recruiters that people are specifically telling them I'm calling you back because of your reviews. And so finding talent, isn't always the toughest thing. It's getting talent to want to call you back. And we're certainly helping to get more call backs to those recruiters. Chad (19m 24s): OK, that in itself is still kind of, well, it's anecdotal. And when we're talking about staffing companies staffing an RPO, this is their business. So they should be doing this better than anybody else. And generally they're focused when they're adding technology. They're focused on our, Oh, I love the whole idea of experience. I love the whole idea of getting my, my recruiters out there in the face just different ways of doing that. But at the end of the day, it all comes down to what is this going to generate from a profit standpoint to my bottom line? Adam Conrad (20m 2s): And we certainly see the profit standpoint from the referrals turn into placements. And then from recruiting management, simply if you're able to make faster decisions. I mean, if you think about how long it takes to find out a recruiter might not work out? What our clients are telling us is that they're making better decisions faster on the recruitment team. They're also getting the recruiters up to speed faster because they're able to share feedback on some of their best recruiters, training and development perspective. So from that, I think that's a direct ROI when you can cut down the amount of time it takes to figure out if somebody is going to work out or you're able to get a recruiter up to speed faster, better position them for candidates to want to work with them and with your firm, that's certainly an ROI that our clients are realizing today. Adam Conrad (20m 47s): So speaking of ROI, you have a story on your website, Joel (20m 48s): A company called Alpine group. I believe I'm saying that correctly, that they tout that their Google rating on their reviews went from a 2.3 to a 4.1. I'm curious if there are other stories like that and exactly how does that happen? In other words, does the staffing firm proactively say we'd really love a good, you know, we'd really love your feedback on Google or Glassdoor, or is this just by accident because there's greater engagement and feedback's happening organically and not by sort of push push campaigns. Adam Conrad (21m 22s): It's happening automatically through push campaigns. So as we identify people who have a positive experience, one of the use cases a client started doing, and Apline certainly adopted or was we have a positive review. Thank you. So, you know, from the negative side, what can you do to resolve those issues from a positive side? What can you do to help automate that followup? And one of the things we have is a positive review, thank you. And so after that review is completed, clients can send out an automatic email and many of those clients simply ask the question, Hey, thanks so much for your positive feedback. Adam Conrad (21m 54s): Would you mind sharing this on, let's say Google, or would you mind sharing this on Glass Door? So we're just trying to automate that process that normally I think firms would be doing to help solicit feedback on those third party platforms that don't make it really easy to do so. Chad (22m 9s): Excellent. So talk to us about partnerships, partnerships overall from integration standpoint, making this all easier for the staffing company, and then also, you know, what revenue partnerships do you have in place? Adam Conrad (22m 23s): Yeah, so we have several channel partnerships with marketing companies. And so if you think about it, marketing companies in the staffing industry have a tough time, really differentiating their websites. They might have a testimonial on there, but it's manufactured content because there's no a source of origination. So a lot of the tools that we have from a marketing standpoint, the marketing firms love because they're able to create things like embedded testimonials that directly link back to the company's Great Recruiter's profile, providing validity to that review feedback. Adam Conrad (22m 56s): The testimonials come through there. We have recruiter profiles, as I mentioned. And so a big trend that we see in a lot of firms, I think that are leading are adopting this. They're not keeping their recruiters in the back closet. They're actually using them as the tool to say, we are a recruiting firm. Our service is recruiting. Here are the recruiters you're going to work with. And through our tool, then we're able to help people be able to make decisions, which recruiters they want to work with by surfacing the reviews and their testimonials. So channel partnerships, certainly from a marketing standpoint, a ton of user generated content that they can use in their marketing efforts. Adam Conrad (23m 32s): And then we have partnerships with companies that are doing organizational type development, training and development. They love this tool because they're coming in and doing training and development. And if they're helping to train a recruitment team, this real time feedback really helps them to be able to pinpoint areas of improvement for specific recruiters and be able to really tailor training development programs for that individual. Chad (23m 58s): Okay. Adam Conrad (23m 58s): From a technology standpoint, excited, we're doing a lot with Bullhorn, obviously here, fish by Bullhorn is, I was their second customer and love those guys and they're doing a lot around automation. So we're actually having a webinar tickets on September 16th to really talk about how you can leverage your reviews and automation to really bring talent faster into your organization, get them to call you back, get them to want to engage with you. Chad (24m 21s): Okay. So from a partnership standpoint, what is your focus? What's your, what's your perfect partner that you guys are focusing on right now, trying to pull in and work with? Adam Conrad (24m 30s): Definitely from an ATS perspective. So we can continue automating the feedback loop and then definitely from complimentary tools where they want to inject a feedback mechanism, whether it's an onboarding tool, like, you know, like an employee stream or whether it's an engagement tool like a here fish. So from a technology standpoint, we're looking at some other companies that might be working more in the gig type where it's a little bit faster transaction. And so they want that feedback piece because they don't want to just have it sitting inside internally. Adam Conrad (25m 1s): They want ways to be able to get that information out there easily. And I think what we're finding is a lot of people are excited about the public and promotional side of what we provide. Okay. Last one for me, what is the price? How much does this cost? What do I have to pay? How does this work? Yeah, so we have a couple of different pricing options. You know, some people just want to dip their foot in the water and just get the feedback piece. So from an automated feedback piece, it's $299 a month plus $25 per recruiter. And so that gets you the operational platform to be able to automate, get that feedback in. Adam Conrad (25m 35s): And then we have our marketing pro side, which allows you and unlocks the social, share the website, testimonial the company and the recruiter profiles that starts at $500 base platform fee a month and $25 a recruiter. Joel (25m 48s): All right. Hey, last one from me. What, what sort of the end game of the business? I don't think you guys have taken any money. Is that something in the offing what's sort of your, your mojo here? Adam Conrad (26m 2s): Yeah, the mojo really is to get companies that want to adopt a tool like this and to put them in the forefront of the industry as, as really the trailblazers, we are definitely looking at being able to create that marketplace, to start driving more traffic directly to those companies and reward them for the work that they're doing. So, you know, longterm, we've gone from an operational platform that helps to capture the feedback to a marketing and promotional platform that helps them get it out there. And then the next step is really to help bring the audience to our clients. Adam Conrad (26m 36s): Yeah. So I'm like, am I correct that you haven't raised money? And if not, or if so, are you looking for a capital as you grow the business right now? We are angel funded, bootstrapped and angel funded. We haven't taken on any outside institutional money. right now we're in a good position to not do that. But you know what the future holds I couldn't tell you as we continue to grow and as the interest continues to grow, I think those are definitely avenues we'll explore. Joel (27m 5s): And how big is your, your market potentially? I mean, I assume this is, this is, it can be an international product, but it also seems like there's a ceiling because you're just targeting staffing firms. What does that mean? Adam Conrad (27m 16s): Well, I think today we're, we're targeting staffing firms and we're starting to have those conversations with talent acquisition departments because you know, the experience from the corporate side is somebody has a poor experience with one of your, excuse me, recruiters. They may very likely, never buy your product or service again. And so we're doing some things in the background to help to make this fit better into the talent acquisition. They're less, I think, interested in some of the promotional things that we have, and they want to focus on more 360 feedback. So from a market standpoint, definitely the staffing industry moving into talent acquisition. Adam Conrad (27m 50s): And I was explaining what we were doing with my barber. And he said, you know what? This would be awesome for me to get feedback on my stylists. And maybe they need somebody with a good fade, or maybe they want somebody that can do A, B and C. So I think what we've built the core fits a lot of different service type industries. Bell (28m 9s): ding, ding, ding. Joel (28m 21s): Fair enough. We'll let your barber know, Chad will not be a client. Had, you know what the bell means. It's time to face the squad. Adam, are you ready? Got your Bulletproof vest on? You're ready to go? Adam Conrad (28m 22s): I hope so. Joel (28m 25s): Alright, Chad, get him. Chad (28m 25s): Here we go, kids. Okay, Adam, I've got to say that there's no question managers struggled to train, mentor and lead their teams in areas that matter most. And in most cases they don't know what the fuck's going on with their team. They might think they know what's going on, but they're not getting the feedback from the actual candidate. They're not getting the information and one of the things that I really want to hear more from you is, from a sales standpoint, people are the product of a staffing industry, period, not technology, none of that only people are the product. Chad (29m 1s): And you're that, that visual face to, to what these who these people are and what they can actually mean to that staffing organization. Bootstrapped is awesome. And you can stay that way as long as really you're just kinda like fighting with, with survey monkey, right? Because there's nobody else out there like you, which kind of it helps but it hurts to an extent also from a market validation standpoint. Chad (29m 32s): We hear companies say that candidate experience is paramount all of the time. And yet the candidate experience still sucks. It's not because the company can't fix it. It's because they unfortunately do not see strategic value in fixing it and spending money to fix it. Integration is obviously the biggest way forward for you because this cannot say it again, this cannot be a manual process. Chad (30m 14s): All candidates who have been engaged with the recruiter should be included and touched by this process to be able to get real value, not cherry picking value, which we know is going on, right? ROI last but not least. You've got to have a number. You are working with staffing organizations coming from the RPO side and Ron Stein, everything that we talked about, we talked about how it's going to impact our EBITDA. I don't know how many times we've talked about that. It's all about margin. It's all about EBITDA. If you don't have numbers, you are automatically hamstringing yourself right out of, right out of the gate. You have to know those things. At the end of the day. I think what you have put together is amazing! And you have an opportunity to do so much more and stay bootstrapped because you don't have that competition that's out there That's pressing you to get features faster and dry faster. Chad (30m 55s): Although you have a ton of challenges, mainly on the recruiter and the manual side of the house. I think if you pull those together and you focus on that and really focus on the people being the product and that ROI number, I think you've got a winner. But until then, my friend, we're going to give you a golf clap. Golf Clap (31m 19s): clap. Joel (31m 19s): Well, very well Adam Conrad (31m 21s): That's better than a round of bullets. Joel (31m 52s): My turn, and let the, let the big dog eat. Okay, here we go. I dig this idea. I mean, I was initially a little skeptical because I've seen it from the employer side, the desire to just bear your head in the sand don't look at this stuff, it doesn't exist and maybe it'll go away. I think employers to a large degree have come around to the fact that, you know, Glassdoor, isn't going away. Indeed, isn't going away. These sites that let people sort of transparently talk about your company aren't going away. I think on the staffing side, it's much harder to get some of that feedback, either positive or negative because they aren't the employer. There's no sort of emotional connection to a staffing company versus you know, who my, my employer actually is, but I think there's a real serious business case to improve how the staffing companies perform based on this feedback loop or this positive feedback. And I do think there's sort of a psychological trap for people who are working with staffing companies as a job seeker to be proactive and to give feedback. Joel (32m 30s): I think it probably skews positive, which, you know, for, for the transparency of it, isn't maybe a great thing. But if your clients are continually getting positive feedback and also seeing reviews on sites like Google and Glassdoor, they're going to love your product because they're improving. They're getting more people there. They're able to point it, like, look at what Great Recruiters has done from us by taking us, you know, from a 2.3 out of five stars to a 4.1 out of stars. Joel (33m 3s): And if you give them the tools to be able to do that, I think you got a, a customer that's going to try it. And you've probably got a customer for life because they can continue to increase those ratings and increase that, that, that positive momentum with the business. I think the opportunity to go after direct employers is really interesting. I think a lot of employers don't really consider sort of the process, the hiring process. It's the reviews tend to happen more on when they leave the leave, the leave the company, which tend to be a little bit negative in some cases. Joel (33m 38s): So I think the opportunity is great. I think the price point is probably right on, I think international growth is going to be pretty exciting for you going forward. And I think what you got is, is pretty cool right now. So for me, it's a rousing applause. Applause (-): clapping Joel (33m 55s): Adam, so congratulations you leave Firing Squad unscathed. Adam Conrad (33m 58s): Well, I appreciate it. Gentlemen. Thanks so much. It's been great talking to you guys and I love your feedback. I mean, Chad, I think you had some very good, good points that, you know, take away from this and continue to, to think about as we grow the business and Joel, I appreciate you see in kind of the vision of where we're at and how we have an impact, not just in staffing, but on the TA side of the house. Thanks very much. Chad (34m 18s): So that's all done in love, my friend. Joel (34m 22s): See you brother. Keep us updated, Adam. Adam Conrad (34m 23s): Awesome. And that would be www.greatrecruiters.com. Joel (34m 28s): Good boy. And with that, we out. Chad (34m 30s): We out. Adam Conrad (34m 45s): Thank you. OUTRO (34m 46s): This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.chadcheese.com.

A hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train wreck might best describe this week. The boys unleash on everyone from: CareerBuilder can't get their messaging straight iCIMS says "I would like myself to reintroduce... myself." LinkedIn devolves quickly Indeed goes away from their winning ways Phenom People acquires My Ally Want more? How about Amazon drones up in ya’ face! 2020 keeps gettin’ kinda hectic. As always, the weekly episode is sponsored by JobAdx, Sovren, and Jobvite. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. INTRO (14s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (21s): We're a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train wreck. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel "$750" Cheesman. And I'm Chad "I'm never watching another debate in my life" Sowash. Chad (56s): Yeah, you are. And on this week's show, LinkedIn has stories, Indeed flexes, Career Builder wipes away a text kernel, and ISIM's gets a fresh coat of paint. It's October and this election has me scared as hell. We'll be right back after we stand down and ... Man just shut up. Sovren (1m 22s): Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry, the more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com, that's S O V R E N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel (1m 28s): 🎵 It's the end of the world as we know it 🎵 Dude, I'm sick and tired of being locked down. The Titans and Steelers game is postponed because of COVID. Indians eliminated sweat by the Yankees. Baseball doesn't exist right now. The debate, were not a debate, fucking Trump. Crowd - sound effects (-): Booos. Chad (1m 47s): But, kids, kids, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Joel (1m 47s): What? Chad (1m 48s): The Chad and Cheese. What? That's the Chad and Cheese are bringing the season of giving early. Joel (1m 56s): Tell me more. Chad (2m 24s): Yes. This this thing we're calling a beer drop, where you find listener, you find listener and come to Chadcheese.com/free. We're going to have a bunch of other things too, and you can register to get beer sent to your front door. One lucky listener, one winner per month. We are going to curate. We're going to think about this. We're going to taste and we're going to send you the best beer! And where, where do I go to do that? Chadcheese.com/free that's Chadcheese.com/free. Joel (2m 45s): We gotta fine October Fest with someone's name on it for this month. We're going to go October Fest, seasonable. So exciting. So exciting. And guess what! What? T-shirts are in! That's right kids! Chad (2m 59s): That's right, Version 2.0 of the Chad and Cheese t-shirt yes. Well answered by our buddies at Emissary are in. So yes, if you want beer and a chance, a free tee shirt head on out to Chadcheese.com/free. We're givers. Joel, we are givers We're givers. And that being said, Shout Outs. Shout Outs. Chad (3m 30s): So Jackye Clayton, you know her from Hiring Solved. Remember she got, her and Jeremy both unfortunately were downsized, but Jackie is now DEI strategist over at Seek Out Anoop, our buddy, Anoop he knows good people when he sees them now Hiring Solved alum, Jeremy Roberts, Jeremy Roberts. Jackie Clayton are reunited. And it sounds like a coup. And knowing Jeremy, he's getting a referral bonus, a finder's fee and probably a steak dinner for getting Jackie in the door there. Feels so that's good. Joel (3m 52s): Good things happen to good people and dammit, Jackie and Jeremy, you go. Chad (4m 19s): More of a SmackDown than a Shout Out. Last year, Wells Fargo's 2019 income was near $20 billion. And back then the CEO and President Charles Scharf said, I quote, "Wells Fargo is a wonderful and important franchise that has made some serious mistakes. And my mandate," this is Charles "is to make the fundamental changes necessary to regain the full trust and respect of all stakeholders. Then ... Em, hummm... Chad (4m 51s): Sharp's dumb ass drops a memo with it that actually says quote, "while it might sound like an excuse..." It does Charles, "the unfortunate reality is that there is a very limited pool of black talent to recruit from," end quote. I'm going to go back to that $20 billion in income, and you want talent to just fucking appear. You want government to provide you with the program and welfare, governmental welfare to fill your talent gap? And my message to Wells Fargo is fuck you. This is ridiculous. Joel (5m 37s): I'm going to do a one 80 and give a Shout Out to the new Borat movie that's coming. Oh my God. Oh my God. It's the end of 2020 with Borat. Yeah, it looks like it's going to be an Amazon Prime exclusive coming out pretty soon. But yeah, if you, if you remember the 2006 film, you knew that 2020 would be a perfect time for a new Borat, and God damn, it's coming, new Borat on Amazon. Very nice. Gotta be stoke. Chad (5m 39s): A big Shout Out to James Boettcher. You might remember him as the Head of Righteous Gelato. Joel (5m 39s): Boettcher , I hardly know her. Chad (6m 12s): I love his gelato. You remember this guy, right? I mean the Righteous Gelato was listed in the top 400 fastest growing companies in Canada for the second year in a row. And they are coming South baby. That's right. As soon as they lift the COVID border issues, I guarantee you we're going to have some righteous shit down here in the U.S. Joel (6m 23s): Very nice, very nice. Say a Shout Out to Adam Chambers. Our favorite, our favorite leprechaun actually, can you call Irish leprechauns? Is that racist? Chad (6m 22s): I don't know. Good question. Joel (6m 54s): Adam Chambers. God bless him on LinkedIn. The dude has no filter, announced that he had quote an actual, real legitimate client. Finally. So Adam, thank God for you and your transparency. Good luck with that new client. Hopefully you can get some more new clients or real clients there in Ireland. Cause apparently if you don't have Irish customers, it's hard to get Irish customers, go figure. Chad (7m 5s): Shout Out to Dev Skiller, lists babies lists that way. That's right. Dev Skiller's, International Podcast Day list, only listed four podcasts, and one of those podcasts was the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (7m 10s): Oh, stop. We were in the final four? Chad (7m 29s): Yeah. In the final four. Jason Banks who we might've known a few weeks ago, actually he made a list. He was teasing us cause he knows we're suckers for lists. And he said that he's thinking about creating a top Chad and Cheese podcast list. We could call it a playlist, maybe. Of our podcasts? Yeah! Wow. That's a lot of podcasts to go through, dude needs a life, if he's going to go through our shit. 550 plus podcast guys. Oh, Chad knows everybody. Chad knows. Joel (7m 57s): Shout Out to Joanne Lockwood, friend of the show and a good, just a good, good person. She wrote an article on this Scotland Herald, which I'm sure is a legitimate publication. In Scotland. About how meritocracy needs to be busted. If you haven't checked that out, go search Google for Joann Lockwood, Scotland Harold meritocracy, or any combination of those words. You'll probably find it big shout out to her good people. Chad (8m 37s): That's right jim Stroud, read it. Understand it. A big Shout Out to Matt Baxter. Remember the CEO of of Wedgie or wedgie wedgie. Yeah, that's right. He interviewed me on his podcast. Everybody has a fucking podcast. These days, episode dropped this week and they just received a million dollars in funding. So who knows Matt might be bringing Wedgie to Firing Squad. Joel (8m 37s): Did you get a metaphorical wedgie on the show? Did he? Chad (8m 44s): Who wouldn't? Joel (8m 54s): Funny story, offline, I'll tell you about wedgies. Okay. So a Shout Out to Sebastian Domingez. Is there a cooler name than Sebastian Dominguez? Chad (8m 56s): Sounds like a Disney character. Something like a Prince. I don't know. Beauty and the Beast. Joel (9m 16s): Talent.com, another friend of the show, their new VP of sales, who they got from Indeed. So wow, good on you, poaching from Indeed for your VP of sales. It's nice work. Talent.com formerly Neuvoo. Chad (9m 52s): Shout Out to Talent Talks. So a Joveo has this video series called Talent Talks, which the host is Jen Terry Tharp. We know her, she's been on the podcast. She'd spent 20 plus years over at AT&T. She knows her shit, and for some reason she had me on. We actually recorded two episodes because we were drinking and we went over time. And so we did two episodes instead, but those are going to be coming out in the next a week or so look at the socials. I don't know. Maybe if you're using Chad and Cheese in your pocket, we might actually send them there. Joel (9m 52s): Go another event with a friend of the show, the global HR tech virtual symposium. Yes. That's a mouthful. October 6th, Jobvite will be presenting information about, you know, really intelligent stuff. October says global HR tech virtual symposium. They need a new branding campaign, which we'll be talking about those later in the show. Chad (10m 15s): Yeah, maybe just a copywriter, big shout out to Madison Butler. We dropped a podcast this week called stop hiring racists. She has been the target of some crazy shit because she's a black woman speaking her mind and some people just don't like that. But dude, you know, that whack Trumper chick who did like a 35 minute video calling her out as like a bully. Yup. Yup. She did a second one, a second 35 minutes. Joel (10m 46s): Oh come on. Chad (11m 5s): Who has time for that shit, dude? As if we weren't jealous enough that somebody had a hater that would commit almost an hour of trashing them. Joel (10m 58s): Like, come on, man, we've been doing this for 20 years and no one has done a YouTube trashing of me or you, or the both of us. So I'm, I'm totally jealous of Maddie B. Chad (11m 16s): So crazy. So anyway, so you can check that out. It's called Stop Hiring Racists on Chadcheese.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah. Shout Out to, I'm going to say this incorrectly, rlasick5 left a review for us on, I think iTunes. It was, it was very complimentary, but had been in the business for 26 years and had just discovered the show? I mean, come on man. But we're glad that we can keep you laughing. We'll keep talking if you keep listening. Joel (11m 47s): Better, late than never kids. Better late than never. Got any more Shout Outs? Let's highlight the Chad and Cheese in your pocket. If you haven't yet folks. Joel (12m 34s): Yes. Text CC that's letter C and C two (833) 799-0321. Also shout out to Adzuna we talked about beer drop earlier. Adzuna is making it all possible. Helping us get the country drunk one drinker at a time. Thanks Adzuna. And lastly, a big Shout Out to Shaker Recruitment Marketing, chadcheese.com is getting a new paint job, Shaker's helping us with it. And we really needed the help because after looking at the mockups, it is quite a bit nicer on the eyes than the blinding yellow that you get at this site right now. So big Shout Out to them for just being a awesome team, committing to a bunch of knuckleheads. Thank you I'm tearing up right now. Thank you Shaker Recruitment Marketing. I feel like we should give them a trophy or something like maybe an award. The Keegan, humanitarian award goes to. And that being said, great job by Shaker. Again, we haven't been doing events. They've been there. They've been there. We've been doing all these digital events. A couple of once again, October 7th, look on the socials. We've got the HR hackathon, HR tech investor panel, I'm going to be on with a bunch of different investors asking them why they pick the ones that they pick. Joel (13m 13s): Then October 27th at 2:00 PM Eastern time, it's Friendly Discourse round two, baby. The topic is remote workers deserve less. Jim will defend Facebook's docking employee pay when they move from away from Silicon Valley and citing of the cost of living adjustment while I call bullshit. Joel (14m 8s): So it should be a good time once again, October 27th. And if you're not getting our emails come to Chadcheese.com, all you gotta do is go into the contact form. Get into the email list or again, Chad and cheese in your pocket, text CC two (833) 799-0321. Powered by Emissary. Let's get to the new shall we? TOPICS! Textkernel, CareerBuilder. Holy hell. You did the shred on this one. What's going on? Chad (14m 26s): Okay. So quick question, can you imagine just how fucking happy Textkernel is right now to be away from the biggest dumpster fire in our industry? Joel (14m 26s): I don't know. I'd feel a little bit like a tennis ball with the way that they've been bounced around and now they get to go to what a private equity company, Main Capital Partners? Chad (14m 35s): But they're out of Amsterdam. Joel (14m 49s): They're nice. They're nice public equity company. No. And now I was trying to remember, did the Textkernel CEO founder leave when they sold Career Builder? Cause my memory serves that he was gone or that he bounced. Chad (14m 56s): Yeah, I can't, I can't remember. Are you talking about when they did the 60% buyer? Are you talking about the full buy? Joel (15m 11s): Yeah. Before the full deal, I feel like he left the company. So anyway, yeah. I mean, to me, this is more about Career Builder just being a shit show than it is, you know, Textkernel, although we've, we've heard more rumblings about Textkernel being a meh technology, since this deal happened. Chad (15m 33s): Well, the deal in itself is pretty much the same kind of deal they did with EMSI right. I mean, they said we're still friends. We're going to continue to work together and all of that shit. But if Textkernel and EMSI were so damn strategic, why sell them off? We've been talking about the garage sale that is Career Builder for a long time. And they probably rejoiced when someone came along with a check to take Textkernel away. And in our last week's show, we talked a lot about the smoke show that was Career Builders, published 300 million investment in technology, which to me, as I, as I thought about this a little more, just, it just feels like lip service to current customers in the hopes that they keep using Career Builder. Joel (16m 3s): They can keep milking this cow for as long as they can. Joel (16m 38s): While in the back room they're making deals selling off the actual properties because career builder is probably getting calls from people saying, yeah, this job posting thing is fun, but there's all this cool tech out there and we're looking at other options. And so they come out and say, wait a minute, we're going to dedicate 300 million over the next three years in hopes that you'd stay a customer for the next three years, that we can impress you with our tech savvy. And it just feels like it's a total play to make customers stay on for as long as possible. Yeah. And what they cited in the actual press releases, as we'd said on last week, I think it was last week's podcast and it was all just bullshit table stakes. Everybody's already doing that stuff. Good job Career Builder way to catch up. You're now at the starting line while everybody is on lap 500. I don't know. It's a freaking mirage. I think they're just changing from normal duct tape to sparkly duck tape. I mean, that's pretty much it. Yeah. And then quick reminder for those who don't think CareerBuilder is doing this a quick refresher here in August, CareerBuilder sold at stake in I'm going to mispronounce this careera.gr a top three site in Greece, February offloaded it's candidate, background check division CBES to competitor accurate backgrounds. Joel (17m 28s): So they're selling the shop folks everything's for sale. It is. And you know, we've been hearing rumors of broad being, you know, not just on the blocks, but actually in the process of being sold. Yeah. That's not a surprise, but to be quite frank, the only thing I think that you could buy, not the tech, I mean, it's the portfolio. Well, right. We talked about a broad partnering with a couple of programmatic solutions, right? So instead of building it yourself, let's just partner with somebody until we sell this thing so that we can have programmatic, but they clearly would have built the thing themselves with the $300 million that they're posed to apparently investing in tech. Joel (18m 15s): Instead they're partnering with folks, which again, they're going to sell Broadbean the first, the first chance that they get. But I mean, this is a, this is, I don't want to call it a Trojan horse, but it's almost kind of like a Trojan horse. If you think of it from Joveo's standpoint, which is one of the programmatic partners. Yeah. Let's just start, you know, sucking some of those customers over here into the programmatic side of the house and when they do die and go away, you know, who are they going to turn to? Yeah. Who's the other, is it recruiting in Joveo? Yeah, I think there was a couple of them. Chad (18m 46s): Yeah. Joveo I'm sure is being pretty smart about the partnership and probably tracking things pretty well. Well, that being said, ICIMS says allow myself to reintroduce myself. Joel (18m 54s): Yeah. I loved your take of the midlife crisis for a tech company that's 20 years old. Joel (19m 28s): That was great. That was great. So new logo, it's very not, I mean the other one was like a big script I with iCIMS, like it's what the Sims is, but just the eyes there, they have the pretty blue that everyone's using the little.to sort of the metaphorical person to sort of humanize the logo. They got a new website, which has lots of cool cloudy images, which is nice. What else did you take away from the redesign and the reboot? Yeah, I, it is a question between, you know, the midlife crisis, blue little red Corvette rebate brand versus something they should've done a long time ago. Chad (19m 55s): Overall, at this point they have 4,000 customers for God's sakes. You know, a lot, they had this really fun wispy logo that was going on and now they have a new one that is really solid foundation wise. That pretty much says, Hey, we're, we're here to kick your ass. Joel (19m 55s): So That was more like ad that's been driving a minivan for 10 years and the kids go to school. So he buys a Porsche and gets a new, it gets a new look, new hair, and some cool jeans. Chad (20m 43s): You've got to remember that until recently, most of the people in leadership have been there since the start. So most of this is really near and dear to them. And I mean, that's gotta be fucking hard, right? I mean, you're pushing away things that you created, you know, that's gotta be part of the heartstrings piece. So there's been some change in leadership. So I think overall from a brand standpoint, and then also a tech acquisition, they have Vista partners. I mean, do they are in the catbird seat when it comes to M and A. Joel (20m 43s): Yeah, they got a new friend who said, you know, dude, that minivan is comfy and a responsive and this, but this Porche is pretty nice, man. Let's take this out for a drive, take this out for a drive. I will say also I was, I was curious what would happen to the mascot? You know, Ike right? Ike, the bird which has been prominent for so long, I thought is Ike going to be around. So they have, Ike bot, did you see this? So their little bot is now Ike and Ike just kinda went from a fun bird you want to play with to sort of an angry bird that you don't want to like mess with. Joel (21m 40s): And I will say from a technology standpoint that the chat bot is a lot more of a tennis playing, you know, where you sorta click what you want to do. And it tells you like, so as opposed to an actual conversation. So I got to think if they're not looking at the conversational AI players to sort of upgrade that Ike bot, they might want to be doing that in the near future might be happening. Chad (21m 41s): I'd like to say that I is very near and dear to my heart, my little girl, Emma, who's not a little girl anymore, she's in fuckingg college. She has three upstairs and they probably span over the last maybe 15, 10, 12, 15 years going to events and getting the new Ike. Right? So yeah, I mean, I can understand the change, but this, I think is a good change. Joel (22m 15s): Yeah. My three year old has an Ike as well so it's near and dear to my heart, also. And hopefully they, hopefully they'll still have a few, a few stuffies and warm and fuzzies at the conference circuit when the world world opens back up again. Stay fun, ISIMs, stay fun. Stay fun, ISIMs, stay foolish. Speaking of foolish, just kidding, Phenom is in the news. Chad (22m 28s): So is, is this really a big story? I mean, because I haven't heard anything from Phenom in so long, it was like a knee jerk reaction for me to dig into this. And they got like $30 million, eight months ago. And then they like went silent. So, I mean, do you think this is something that's big? Joel (22m 51s): Don't think on its face is big, this isn't, you know, Glass Door getting acquired or anything. Well, big for them. Joel (23m 21s): Yeah. I guess another automation play, right? Like everybody wants to be soup to nuts, we're going to do it all. And, and this is another play toward that. So My Ally, for those who don't know, automates email based interview scheduling, which is obviously compliments, Phenoms functionality of their chat bot the email, they have SMS as well. So the scheduling time obviously helps automate that whole process. Now why they didn't go by our buddies at Good Time so we could have played some dynamite sound bites? Good time! Joel (23m 57s): Good time will get bought eventually and we'll be able to play the sound soundbite. But My Ally, apparently they claimed that they're doing scheduling of over 20,000 interviews per month. So they clearly know what they're doing, probably a lot of bootstrap stuff. It was on the cheap they needed, which you tout quite a bit. It's obviously a pain in the ass to schedule interviews. So not a huge deal. It's just another step that everyone's trying to be the all in one platform and a Phenom is in the game. Chad (23m 57s): Okay. So here's, here's my only comment when it comes to this, because Phenom has been talking about a single platform experience for a while. They have, haven't they? Chad (24m 31s): This is something I can get behind. There's no question. They they've said that they have this email capability, but was this just better than what they had? Were they white labeling somebody else? Which, I mean, overall, that's not a seat, single platform experience. What was the tech better? Was it an Aquahire? I mean, this, to me, it didn't make sense unless it was something they really just didn't do well? Yes. They were just really shitty at it. And they were like, Hey, we need to fill this hole. And it's a good time. Yeah. Joel (25m 30s): It smells a little bit like Outreach and Launchpad from a week ago or two weeks ago where, you know, you have these tech startups, you know, very few employees, you know, the economy has gone to shit. They it's hard to get customers or they're losing customers. So then it's like, what the hell do we do? Let's call up somebody who might write us a check. Bingo, bam. You know, you're sold and now you're an employee somewhere else and they just grab your tech. So yeah, scheduling I'm sure is a challenge that's not easy to replicate. And if these guys had it done right. And the price was right, you know, Phenom, why not? And I think we're going to continue seeing more of this, you know, companies with some VC, with the VC saying like, Hey, let's go spend because you know, there are a lot of companies on the clearance rack. I think we'll see a lot more of these deals through, you know, this year and next year. Chad (25m 43s): Those types of acquisitions are the ones that make me say, wait a minute. I thought you already did that shit? Were they bullshitting us. Was it Naper wear was it? Was it white labeling? What the fuck was it? Joel (25m 57s): A lot of companies put Heinz ketchup in the crock pot and call it chili, right? But it's not chili so they call it that, but it isn't, so they have to go with some actual actual beef and beans and onions and real ingredients. Touché. Touché And not pasta, you don't put noodles in your fucking chili, people. It's not how it's done. Ooh. Ooh. Okay. Let's take a break and we'll talk noodles maybe after a word from JobVite. Jobvite (26m 17s): Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com. Joel (26m 46s): Jolly Good! Tally ho! Yeah. Chili's a win-win noodles. No noodles like just Texas Cincinnati. Like it's a win! Yeah. I, well, first I want to say thanks to Adam Gordon, because he thought tally ho was actually a much better word to use. And you had the Spock meme of Spock from Star Trek saying Tally Ho. That was pretty good. Chad (27m 51s): That's good shit. That's good shit. Joel (27m 54s): So LinkedIn ads stories. Chad (27m 55s): Okay. I've got, I just got to get this out. This is the first cat fishing starts. And now this. You guys, I mean, literally you gotta be fucking kidding me per a professional network, which is devolving. By the day I go back to our interview with Madison Butler who like, like we said, had like 40,000 followers or something like that. And she's totally getting hosed by racist comments on LinkedIn every day. We've talked about people using LinkedIn like Tinder, fake accounts, catfishing, dude, what the fuck is going on over there? Joel (28m 3s): Oh, my friend, my friend, the Koolaid is still is still tasty. Those Issues have nothing to do with the tech and the reach and all that good stuff. They have their problems. Do you think this is going to help stories? Define help? Is it going to help engagement? Yeah. I mean, look, there's a whole generation of kids and we're two old white guys, right? There's a generation of people that grew up with Snapchat and Instagram and now use Tik Tok. Joel (28m 49s): And if LinkedIn doesn't do things like add stories, they're going to be left behind. They're just going to be this site that is Facebook light. And no one's going to care from a younger generation standpoint. So I get that, I get that, you and I may not be that excited about it, but if I'm a 24 new grad, I'm probably posting stories more than I am, an article that I saw, you know, on ERE or something. So yeah, we can argue it. But I, I think that, you know, based on their, their early testing, they launched early in testing and France and Brazil and some other places. I mean, they've had millions of stories, tons of engagement. I mean, I, I'm keeping a look on it with, from my app and there's some decent engagement. I mean, it's a little bit Facebook and Instagramy. You like, people haven't quite figured out that it's sort of a professional spin on what stories should be. And I think they'll eventually get that, but I don't know how you could just rip into stories when I think a younger generation, that's how they think of social media. Joel (29m 24s): It's like, let's make cute videos with filters and give me dog ears and put stickers on my shit. Chad (29m 28s): This feels like they're just throwing shit at the wall though. I mean, they had the audio voice messaging. I mean, it's just like all the things that they're adding is like, they're just throwing shit at the wall to see what, and maybe it is, maybe this is like just a big R&D AB test who the fuck knows. Right. But overall, if they want to become a Facebook, right. The thing that really distinguishes them from Facebook is the workplace connections, the ability to expand from a career standpoint to do those different things. Chad (30m 5s): Right? Joel (30m 25s): And I understand that, you know, different generations do it different ways, but I really feel like that is devolving and it's becoming more like Facebook. And if it does become more like Facebook will the rules and just the way that people use it become more like Facebook? Yeah. I mean, ultimately, and Facebook did not invent stories, right? Facebook totally copied Snapchat, who popularized it, threw it on Instagram, which is a more appropriate platform. So to me, it's like, let's do what the young kids are doing and create, you know, create a technology otherwise we're going to left behind. So yeah, I guess you could poopoo stories, but I think they're here to stay. And I think that, you know, they'll probably skew younger, but yeah, I'm not gonna poop who it, you know, they have seven, 706 million users globally and they got to keep those users engaged. Joel (31m 2s): Right? And if engagement means cute little videos with filters and stickers, like that's what they're going to do. Whereas engagement, 10 years ago, five years ago was like, let's post articles and let's post comments and images. The new generation wants stories. So who are we to say no, by the way, this is only U S and Canada. I know we have a global audience. So unfortunately a lot of people won't know what we're talking about or care. So it's not quite global yet. I've been playing around with it. Joel (31m 33s): You get, you know, you get to see who's seen your stories. So there's some engagement there. Chad (31m 37s): Just like in Facebook. Joel (31m 39s): Yes, just like Facebook, dude, everybody copies every. Yeah, I get it. I get it. It's just, what do you want to be when you grow up? You know, do you want to be another Facebook or do you want to try to evolve into something that changes the industry? Chad (31m 55s): Like Tiktok again, we're talking about videos, but still we're talking about something. Joel (-): That's innovative. Chad (32m 10s): That's innovation, right. And this is not innovation. And again, I just don't think it embodies that of which a professional network should actually innovate. That's just, again, that's my opinion. Joel (32m 10s): Yeah. I mean, they, they put in a pool and you're not a pool guy, I guess, but this was not the only thing that they launched. They also launched some video messaging. So again, you know, they're FaceTiming as well, so that they're copying that stuff, which everyone is, but they've integrated. Interestingly, the video messaging integrates with BlueJeans, Zoom and Microsoft Teams, conveniently Slack was not on the list nor was Facebook at Work. So you're going to have to wait probably forever for that integration to happen. Joel (32m 43s): And they've also, put in a little bit of Google strategy by universalizing, if that's a word, a, their search results. So before, you know, you use keywords and you'd sort of see your network. Now it's going to pull on your network. It's going to pull in jobs. It's going to pull in stories. It's going to pull in like a lot of different stuff on your search results page. So yeah, we've got the full copy of Google, FaceTime and Snapchat and the latest LinkedIn update. Joel (33m 13s): So there you go, Chad. Chad (33m 16s): You talk about fucking spaghetti. Indeed is making a flex. I think the Syft acquisition is actually bearing fruit, at least in this iteration, because this looks, feels, tastes like Syft, which was the acquisition they had over in the UKYeah. Yeah. I like this a lot. This is a play on the gig economy. We've talked about players like Snag-a-job, Paired we've talked about, which is strictly sort of the, the dining service industry. Joel (33m 49s): Even remember a Talroo you had an app called Apply. Do you remember that? Probably not. That was a few years ago. So this is not a new idea, but for Indeed to do it, I think is smart. I think they can scale it. I think they have the name to make it work and the numbers. And obviously the, the workforce is going in this direction. They're going into more gigs. They're going into more right. Flexible opportunities where they can pick their hours. They can pick the companies. Joel (34m 20s): It's more of a marketplace idea. So I like it. I think it's one of the best things they've done. I don't love the name. Like why not just Flex by Indeed or something. And then eventually phase out the Indeed logo. They are taking this seriously because it's its own domain. And they also have a separate, I think LinkedIn account and social media accounts just for Flex. So this looks like this is a commitment that they're making to the future and in the gig economy. And it's also a nice play against Google who probably is not going to get in that game anytime soon. Joel (34m 53s): So it's hedging their bets on different things. Yeah. The domain is Indeed Flex by the way, so I don't think they're going to lose Indeed. Just let's dig into shit to Sift, real quick. So it's a temp job agency in the UK. They work through their temp staffing app, which means, and this is from the Sift site quote, "we cut out the middleman providing high quality, reliable staff to employers, and on demand shifts to job seekers, working in hospitality, events, industrial sectors..." Joel (35m 24s): Et cetera, et cetera. So that's what Flex feels like that, I'm not a hundred percent sure that it is, but it feels like it. Chad (35m 34s): They have points where you get confirmed for shifts, instantly, choose your pay, set your pay, and see which employers are matching your preferences. This sounds more like Tinder for jobs to me than anything, but the business model, let's talk about the business model and this is what I don't like. It seems as if they are taking the temp staffing model on, and they're just layering tech into it when the model actually needs to be blown up. Chad (36m 4s): It's kind of like we were just talking about with, with LinkedIn, you know, they're just adding shit that already exists when it really needs to be re invented. If you think about it, seriously, Indeed one, the market by entering into CPC, they changed what everybody else was doing. They didn't, they didn't try to do the exact same thing Monster was, they changed. They could more easily become the backbone of staffing agencies and become the platform for all staffing instead of competing with staffing. Chad (36m 36s): So, I mean, this isn't a Trojan horse model, which means it's not the Indeed way. Also what about Prime or Hire or whatever they're calling it this day, these days. It just, it seems like they're not doing business the way that they were geared. And they originally took over the market, which was via Trojan horse. This is not it. I mean, they're going directly head to head with other temp agencies. And that to me makes no sense, But we've also talked a lot about Indeed becoming a staffing agency. Chad (37m 9s): Do you think this is another step toward that, that reality? So let's, let's talk about Uber Works real quick, right? Who's down the drain. Uber Works came, came out and they tried this, this exact type of thing from what it feels like. And they went down the drain. Now they did try to pivot to do exactly what I'm talking about right out of the gate. Because if you think about it, actually paying all these people through your platform and doing all those different things and trying to manage the complexity of people, payments, taxes, all that shit makes no fucking sense, right? Chad (37m 45s): Unless you provide the tech to staffing companies and they are in charge of all of that. Now Uber Works try doing that, but they were way too late in the game. Right? I think if Indeed did that, and they became the tech, like the Intel inside of the staffing agencies, and they made it more efficient, which would increase the actual margins, let's say for staffing companies. And it was a software as a service, as opposed to a staffing agency that was just had better tech. Chad (38m 17s): I think that makes more sense. And it blows things up more for them. That is more of a Trojan horse indeed. Way of doing business. Joel (38m 24s): Yeah. So I, so the podcast I was on the Flex, Recruitment Flex, I think it was so interesting that we're talking about Flex anyway. So they were asking about Indeed's model. And, and I thought it's a little bit like Carvana. And I was talking to two Canadians who didn't know what Carvana was. So Carvana is basically like these big buildings that are glass and you see these cars on them, and then you buy the car online. You take this big coin, you put the coin in the slot, and then the car comes down from the building or the little skyscraper thing, and you get your car and you're on your way. Joel (39m 1s): Right? So they're still selling cars, but they're putting tech into it. They're trying to be cool about it. I'm like, pardon me? When you said that, like, do you think that indeed is sort of trying to create this hybrid model of yes we're staffing, but we're doing it in a cool new way so it doesn't feel like staffing. Chad (39m 52s): Yeah. But that's like a single transaction for a car that you'll do once every so many years. This is over, over and over and over and over transactions that are, that are associated to one person. And then you have to, then you have to pull the taxes for that. And you have to do all those things. And it's like, look, if you don't compete with staffing agencies, temp staffing agencies, or staffing agencies, then guess what you can perspectively be the tech that powers all of them, which means you get all the money. And I think this is the wrong choice. Joel (39m 55s): Well, clearly I need to stop being a Jay Leno, want to be in buying 20 cars a year. And maybe I can understand what you're talking about. JobAdX (40m 1s): Whether you're struggling to fill high volume, hourly roles or looking for longterm full time talent, your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution, candidate targeting and budget management. So you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. JobAdX (40m 32s): Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the US and Canada simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit? JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. JobAdX (41m 9s): Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at jobadx.com that's jobadx.com. Chad (41m 24s): Drones! Bring in that drones. In your house. Joel (41m 30s): Yup. Amazon introduced this with their partnership with a Ring, I believe. Partnership? That's no partnership. They bought fucking Ring. Yeah, you're right. You're right. So this is an autonomous indoor security camera that flies around your house. Like in the house, not the parameter of the house, in the house. Chad (41m 47s): If Amazon doesn't integrate home alone into their marketing, this is a big mess. Joel (41m 53s): That's a good point. It's it's called the Always Home Cam. So they've already got Home, you know, in the name, this thing will be $250 and will be available in 2021. I'm guessing that it won't be in the, the Sowash household? I have been looking at Ring cameras, but it's just, it's one of those things where we already have so many devices, not to mention my phone follows me everywhere I go. It's funny. Chad (42m 18s): People are talking about like, all the bullshit conspiracy theories about, Oh my God. When we get the Corona virus, you know, shot, they're going to have trackers in it. And it's like, motherfucker, you already have a tracker. You carry your phone everywhere. So I have to think about, you know, does it even matter that there's a little bot that pops up at night and kind of rolls around, you know, my crib? Yeah. But it just seems weird, but I'm telling you now 250 bucks is fucking cheap. Chad (43m 4s): Now I know it's probably an add on to the entire Ring home security system, but that is cheap to have some hovering future tech shit in your house. I mean, that's fucking, that's, that's pretty cool and scary. Joel (43m 34s): I guess the fear is if it ever gets hacked, then someone knows exactly every corner of your house. If they want to do bad things to you. Do you ever feel like Amazon just does this stuff for press? Like they had the delivery delivery drone a few years ago. They got like on 60 Minutes, they had like the delivery blimp that sort of unleashed all of these drones. There were videos online about the Amazon blimp. And now we have the crazy ass drone, that roams around your house. If they're not doing it for that, they do get the press. Chad (-): Well. Yeah. Chad (43m 35s): But if you think about it, people already have cameras set up all over the inside of their house are ready. Right? They do? Yeah, so instead of doing that... Joel (-): You have camera's n your house? Chad (43m 45s): I don't. I said people, I'm not saying everybody, but those people would, I guarantee you, especially the tech, all those technophobes, they, they're not going to want it, but the technophiles will. Right. And there are plenty of them to spend 250 bucks to be able to get on your phone and show your buddy, Hey, watch this. I'm going to scare my wife. Yeah. I do like this for two things, one is long trips. Me personally, I hate when, when we're gone for a long trip and I'm like, shit. Joel (44m 16s): Okay. And, we're paranoid, right? It's like we locked the door in the garage. We like, we're super conscious when we go for long trips. So if this thing could sort of keep an eye on things while we're gone, like that would be something I would be down with. Everyday, I'd be a little bit weary. And the other thing in terms of, you know, the content of the show, this shit's coming to an office space near you. Like there's going to be companies that get this thing and they're going to be drones flying around the office, whether you're in, at work or not. Joel (44m 56s): Watching you, watching what's going on, they already watch your email and everything else. Why not just watch you with a drone flying around the office. So those are two things that I could see, definitely gaining traction with the drone. Chad (45m 0s): I need a beer. Joel (45m 4s): Make that too. Chad (45m 4s): We out. Joel (45m 5s): We out. OUTRO (45m 38s): Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

Video is HUGE! Employer Brand is HUGE! Candidate Experience is HUGE! No surprise there. But how does it impact employment? Chad sits down with Elena Valentine, CEO and co-founder at Skill Scout to find out. "STORY TELLING IS DOPE!" - Elena Enjoy, and support our sponsors America's Job Exchange, Sovren and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. JobsAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of," or "Is the PayPal of?" Maybe "They're the Facebook of." In many, many cases, these comparisons fall short of being close to reality or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. JobsAdX: In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot-on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google Ad Sense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, persistent and smarter ad unit for job-related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs and staffing firms, real-time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. All of this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regrets. JobsAdX: For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best in programmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishers and job boards higher rev share than other partners through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30-40% greater and more through our scalable model. JobsAdX: To partner with us, you can visit or search JobAdX.com, or email us at joinus@jobadx.com, to get estimates or begin working together. JobsAdX: JobAdX. The best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK, too. Chad: All right. Hey, it's Chad and we're here with Elena. Elena Valentine. We're here with Valentine from skill scout's. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Uh, what, what are you doing here? We're in Nashville by the way, for recruit con. Elena: I was here giving a very hands on and interactive workshop with a couple of hundred attendees that were here and helping them communicate their jobs through video, legitimately using their smartphones. So took them on quite a wild hour and a half ride. I'm all over this hotel following one of the employees here at Hilton and then outside, uh, capturing some behind the scenes of Nashville life. Chad: So it took him outside of the actual presentation area, the room and did, did blr know about this? Did they know that you're going to take them on a hike? Elena: Very much so, yes, I knew that this was, am. Yeah. Well No, I mean because you kind of have to prepare for organized chaos, right? Um, so I didn't want to surprise them and certainly wanted to get permission from Hilton for us to do this. So I've been coordinating with the Hilton HR team, helping them, helping them identify the right person that we could use as our video star for our demo and hands on practice. Chad: So when it came down to demo and hands on practice, where did you see most of the eyes kind of perk up? Elena: I think a couple of things. I think one, seeing how powerful it is to just have very simple conversation with your employee about what it's like to work at your organization. Things standing out about Carl Vins a career trajectory and what hospitality in this career has meant to him. So certainly some of the talking points, but definitely some of the key takeaways is we are doing their functions. Was people seeing how easy this can really be for one seeings Chad: So does that not blow your mind though? I mean seriously, because it. It seems like people want to make things so much more complex than what they really are and if they just simplify the, it'll just come organically. Elena: Very much so. I mean, I think what they have to realize is, look, these are some incredible technology that our pockets, she's holding it. Chad: She's holding her, her... Elena: Holding my Google Pixel, holding my phone. Oh, pixel closes. It was the best camera on the market at the time. That's why I got it. But, you know, we're taking videos and photos of our kids, of our dogs have, you know, odd, odd photos of Joel Cheesman doing ax throwing, right? Like, and so we're, we're trying to Chad: In sandals by the way. Elena: Yes, smart is that we're all, we all are, you know, our videographers in our own right, our amateur videographers and so the idea that, you know, we can push this into the professional workplace, um, and give people some structure, some guidance and some quite frankly some confidence around how to do that is really the aim. The idea at the end of the day is that my just cause is to empower HR to be chief human storytellers of their business and give them an approach. Um, and, and the, and the tools to be able to do that, to see video is just as much of a tool that they can pick up something as any other tools that they have. Chad: Do you think they get that though? I mean because really it doesn't seem like hr or talent acquisition understands that they do have to be good at telling stories. They do have to be good at providing a great candidate experience. It just, it's, it, to me it seems more surgical where it's very sterile and it doesn't seem like they, they understand what this whole journey is about for a candidate. Elena: Yeah, I mean I feel like it has everything to do with trying to take away a lot of the traditional hr seen as this very highly regulated, highly compliant, very serious industry. And the truth is yes, this is a very serious, like we're dealing with very serious issues, right? And in some of what we do has to be taken very seriously, but at the same time, a lot of what we're doing is human to human connection and human to human connection is not compliant or filled with legalese is about having empathetic conversations. And storytelling is such a huge part of that. I think a lot of it is seeing that their role is so much more elevated than what it is. Chad: Right Elena: Once I tell recruiters, you tell stories every day, right? They're like, yeah, you know, we're, we're telling stories about how we're so passionate and why have you been here for so long. And so I was like, well, you should start seeing yourself as that, that really hr and the recruiting industry itself, they are the gatekeepers of workplace stories. Um, and we need to empower this industry to see themselves as that. But that's part of their job description. Chad: And stop being so goddamn afraid of everything. Elena: Yeah, no, for sure. Um, you know, certainly I think if we think about kind of what we've done around video and storytelling, I think some of it is around the culture of their marketing and the business brand, that company, which I think is often what causes the fear and the disconnect because there is an absolute difference between your marketing brand and your talent. Brand. Candidates don't want to be sold to, right? They don't want the most interesting man in the world, but they want is the realities. Chad: Is that true though? I mean seriously, because brands are brands. I mean have you seen Soda Stream new, uh, their, their new campaign where they actually wrap their products and their, I mean because they're proud of their products and that's who they are and they're selling their product and they're selling their brand to their candidates because they also know that the candidates are what? Elena: Their best employee? Chad: Their customer and their, they actually buy their shit, right? Elena: Yes. Chad: So I mean I'm not, I don't totally believe that you need to separate it as much as, as we see out there. Elena: I mean, in, in some cultures, some company cultures are going to be very different. Um, there's some companies I can easily do that much more seamlessly. Um, but I think that there are some companies that say and other highly regulated industries like banking and others, there's this more kind of buttoned up brand that they have to have versus what candidates really want to hear, which is like, don't tell me the sunshine and rainbows. Like, tell me why people will quit, what are the challenges? Also tell me how I can grow. Chad: They will see it on review sites. They'll see it on glass door or they'll see it on Fairy God boss. Oh yeah. This is such a transparent time in our lives. Why do we believe the sterility or what have you is actually going to work. Elena: We don't, but it is safe and it doesn't offend so much. So despite the fact that it doesn't excite, it's also not going to get people in trouble to. Chad: Or interested... Elena: Yeah, for sure. But I think if we're looking at, at the end of the day, we are looking at recruitment goals, right? But we're also looking at, from the ego point of, you know, is this, is a recruiter going to make me look more awesome or less awesome and if I take a step into the unknown, this completely fails, Chad: Yes, Elena: I am not going to look very good. Chad: Yeah. And there is something to say about failure and learning on the path to being successful versus... Elena: I don't believe that is a part of the culture of HR. It's not part of it. Chad: That is why we still, I mean we're still five to 10 years in some cases behind the rest of major industries like advertising, right? Anything that we do seems to technology wise, process wise, be behind everybody else because her for some reason wants to ball up in a corner in the fetal position and hope that they don't get in trouble as opposed to try to shake things up. Elena: Yea, it's always been a reactive industry in the traditional reactive industry, not necessarily one that's been proactive. Chad: So storytelling. Elena: Yeah, it's dope. I live for what I live for. Chad: So that being said, skill scout on the clock, 30 seconds. Tell me about skill scout. What's what, what's going on? Elena: We are a media company that aims to help companies large and small communicate their jobs and company culture on video is a way to attract and retain talent. We do that in a myriad of different ways. Um, but really overall high level mission is, is what I had said. We are here to empower her to be chief human storytellers of their business and see video as part of their creative toolkit to do. Chad: Okay. Okay. Let me read your shirt real quick. Okay. She's got this awesome shirt. It says your job post is as boring as this tee shirt and it's in black and white. So instead of being. And this is again, this is, this is a great t shirt, although it's very hr because it should say your job description sucks, but really, I mean what do you guys do to actually help companies better understand that their job descriptions suck, that they might lean heavy on the male side versus female side? I mean, what do you do to help out with that? Because to be quite frank, we have job descriptions that are 10 plus years old that had been tweaked here and there because of what's happening in the market. How do you help them? Elena: Yeah, I mean I think part of it is seeing the reality of where this generation is heading and where technology is going. Chad: Where the hell is it heading? Elena: Well, it's certainly I'm going to be more 3D than it has been 2D. I mean I think. I think it's this, you know, idea one is let's just get down to the science. We are visual learners. We retained 65 percent of what we see in here versus what we read. Our brains dedicated majority to processing visual, so it's an. It's an how we learn point blank, but it's also seeing that we need to start doing is helping to mystify what requirements are like giving candidates this opportunity to self screen in a to self screen out and we started really based on this mission that you cannot be what you cannot see. We started this company because we were working with young people primarily who had records, some who had never left their neighborhoods, who lacked access and exposure to jobs and job descriptions. Elena: Don't show it. A job is like. Chad: And socioeconomic boundaries are real. Elena: Very much so and so. When we took a step back, what we realized was that there was a power in story and a power and video to celebrate to the world of work and to give these young people a new way to understand what these careers could really be right. That they could see themselves in these roles because the job posts, unless you're the googles and the facebooks of the world, is often the first impression that a candidate will have of your company and so the idea that you can arm them with more information with enthusiasm that they can see themselves in this company became ever more important given the populations that we had initially started with and are inspired by. Chad: And to be able to put more emphasis on. That. Research shows that the career portion of a website is either the number one or number two most visited viewed, so if there's a story to be told, Elena: it's on that page. Chad: Should be within, should be within that ecosystem of the career site itself, right. Not just a page. Yeah. It needs to suck you in, but it needs to be within that ecosystem of engagement. Elena: Absolutely. Because, and this is kind of like a Duh. People work for people, not companies yet. Joel: It's commercial time AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our tenth year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women, and minorities, and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community-based organizations. AJE: What to learn more? Call us at 866-926-6284 or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com Chad: It's showtime! Chad: We're in the, we're in the people business, right? Elena: Correct. Yeah. But we often very forget about that in terms of how we communicate it. Right. You know, so when we started, we built this business on the shoulder to small to midsize manufacturers who certainly know how to make great products. Many of them actually have some great cultures, right? They just don't share that, right? Like there's, there's never been this, this pull for them to reflect and think about not just what you make, but why you make who you make it with and that those are the kinds of, um, kind of tentacles that we should be celebrating. Especially for thinking about attracting the next generation of talent Chad: And that matters to somebody who's coming to spend their, most of their, their day in a place, right? The things that matter are the things that you should talk about the, you know, four bullets or the, the, the actual job description itself that you have now that is incredibly sterile and it's bland and it's boring as hell and it sucks. That's where we should really spend more time to be able to tell our story. Don't get too crazy. Right? But tell the story and also reevaluate what your basic qualifications are because in some cases, I mean, they're trumped up and we see a bachelor's degree is thrown on just about everything nowadays. And uh, it's, it's horrible. So how does skill scout help tell me what your typical client looks like and what their biggest need is? Elena: Yeah. So there's three reasons primarily why companies will come to us. It's really run the gamut in terms of large and small, which we can talk about. Sure. Um, one is, you have companies are saying, look, we have evergreen roles that we're always going to hire for it and we just want to be more efficient in how we do that. We still want to stand out from all the other types of roles. Yeah, we just want to stand out from all the other welding positions that might be out there and want to be known as the employer of choice. So let's put in some resources to differentiating what we do. That's one. The second is I have a hard to fill role. So you think, I mean, when we started manufacturing the tool and die maker in all of these other, um, you know, be it from c suite or just others where it's like, look, this job is just gone unfilled. We're throwing spaghetti at the wall. All right. Okay. Were you, you, you know, you just, yeah, you have a feel my hand let, let's just do it. The third is this is a role that candidates just misunderstand, right? That a job description just doesn't do it justice. We're getting just either a high turnover or candidates who are coming in thinking it was one thing and it's not, and we need a new way to arm our candidates and understanding what this role is. Chad: Right. So how do you help them? Because that is a big problem. Just taking a look at trend to read through a job description and I fall asleep first. Elena: Absolutely. Chad: How do you, how do you help there? Elena: So we're a media company. There's two ways that we help companies. We can be a full scale media production company, we are working with them. I'm kind of with our tried and true process of what it means to create a realistic job preview or a company overview and we just kind of produced that with a talent lens. That's one. Um, but on the second end, which is what we had done today was I'm kind of a diy video offering, if you will. So imagine the baking analogy, you know, we're here to give HR the plan, the kit, the tools they capture the right ingredients. And they submitted to us for editing is a way to just make storytelling more scalable and more affordable. So think about like we're training them to be workplace video sous chefs, but we're still the chefs. Chad: It'a like phone video, just any kind of video and the video, just like this big pile of video and then you guys are like, okay, now we get to put together this, this, story. Elena: So you know, what we're doing with diy video is taking probably some of the hardest pieces of video that scares people. What is the plan like, how the hell do I start and what do I need to like make this not look like the Blair Witch Project? Yeah. And also like I'm not an editor, I don't have time to learn a new software, nor nor am I afraid of it. Um, but I don't know like what I need to do to craft that right story, but we can't. But we can teach them is like, look, you are the experts of your workplace. You have the employees there. Let's help you capture what you should capture and still leave it to us, your storytelling partners. Elena: Um, to help you with that, um, and there's, you know, certainly different reasons why companies would go to one or the other. Certainly some of it is budget. Oftentimes there's companies that are asking us to come in to do both, to create art. Here's some foundational videos that we want, but hey, at any point we also want to just tell our own stories or you know, maybe the role has evolved and we want to continue to take that forward because oftentimes what really scares people about full scale media, one is it feeling like it's too precious, like I've paid thousands of dollars for this ... Chad: What if that if that person leaves, what if they leave? They can't use the videos. Elena: They can't use the video anymore. That's a big one. Um, oftentimes other reason why some companies will come to us is even though they have very high powered marketing teams, HR is the redheaded stepchild. So it's like as soon as a big business initiative comes forward, anything that HR needed to do on training, on recruiting story gets kicked to the curb. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, they often have a lot of kind of hr coming, you know, with their tail between their legs, like, Oh man, like we did try working with marketing. Oh, but they've put us on hold now for the next two years. Like that doesn't help us in our world is moving too fast for us to make that work. Chad: Right. So how do you guys, how do you parse this thing out? So if I come to you on and I say, hey look, I want to throw just a bunch of our mobile videos that you are just a big Cornucopia of media, I want to throw your way. Elena: I love that Cornucopia of media for sure. Um, well certainly we would have a, a very pretty hard understanding of, of what their goals were. Chad: End product. Chad: Yeah. Before like, oh, I'm seeing these random classes. So what Bob doing in the bathroom. I don't understand this one. Yeah, we do it. Elena: We do everything based by credit. So kinda have a, a typical kind of an initial setup cost of all right, let's get your location or your department set up. Um, we have a production planning call, we give you a kit, kind of get everything in line, and that initial set of costs also includes your first video and then you pay based on credit after that. So a thousand dollars per video credit for most videos, maybe a more complex video, like a company overview might be two credits or kind of accustomed video or training videos. Chad: It's my video right? Elena: It's your video HR you own the raw footage. What you're paying for is to have an edited video returned back to you that you can share however and wherever you'd like. And so this was the big insight for us in what's very important is we are here to be pure hr content partners, period. We don't have a subscription or a platform that we are hiding your content behind it to say we're here to be, you know, you're a great storytelling partners, have these videos, use them on Insta, use them on snapchat, use them on facebook, use them on your career page. Whatever you want is how you should use it. And the recurring for us, right? The part of the relationship that continues is that, um, we can make this kind of a seamless relationship both in its affordability but also that lucky, you know, we now have built this just a massive library of content for you and we can continue to help you with that moving forward and making it something that can be scalable and affordable. Elena: So we have a lot of companies internationally who have say hundreds, thousands of locations who often are like, everything is always us centric. Why? Because you know, that's where all our full scale is and we don't, we can't afford to have a full scale go to Japan and go to Germany and go to Italy when quite frankly these other countries and in colleagues or are yearning for more localized recruitment content. And so this is kind of certainly been a solution for some companies on what that could look like. Chad: So last question in your lens, how you see it, right? How do you see Google for Jobs impacting the market? Elena: Yeah, I mean I think what Google for jobs is doing is going to aggregate, quite frankly, you know, kind of nearly every job board, you know, everything together. It's becoming the primary search engine. Um, and so I think that's going to be a key market. Um, I think what we're also seeing is that what Google for jobs will continue to do is once again move into the direction where it's no longer about posting and praying. I mean now you know, you are just going to get candidates that will passively be receiving roles based on what their, um, you know, interest or their experience with based on algorithm. But the key thing will always be that content is king, right? So at the end of the day, when they receive 80 jobs for being a shoe designer, they're still gonna want to figure out what is it like to be a shoe designer at Nike versus being a shoe designer to Adidas when that's where the power of story really comes into play to help them make those decisions. At the time of application. Chad: And I think we're past content is king. I think right now Google is actually dictating that experiences king. Elena: Absolutely. Chad: You heard it here first, by the way, so I mean you guys are in the right business, I believe at this point where everybody's scrambling. How am I going to get my jobs out there? It's not just about getting the jobs out there, it's about getting that content out there, making sure that it is a more of an experience because of job seekers take more time on your site and they're not ejecting. As soon as they get their, Google's going to see that I'm going to get better rankings. You're going to get better traffic and if you're not already selling this, I'm going to send you an invoice for consultant. Just kidding. But I mean seriously. Right? So when it goes past this, what's the other. I mean we just saw indeed buy glass door recruit buy glass door. What are some of the other big impactful things you believe are going to happen in the industry? Elena: Yeah, if I can take a bit of a different perspective. Yeah. I'm quite frankly, in terms of even how we have navigated our most authentic path to this as so much of HR tech is about automation and the robots will now take over the experience of this and you know, everyone will do this and there's something to be said that I am proudly a media company, not a tech company, which means that there will always be a level of service and a level of human to human connection that is important here and what I see happening is that we've gone so far to the other end of the chat bots and the AI that what people will realize is we are tribes people on instinct and what we want is not a network of 6,000 or your 6,000 opportunities. We want that network of a three right in those top six. And so I think that, you know, to your point what you said, that what will win out will be those that are thinking about experience and thinking about how we are really making more human to human. One on one connections in a world. That I think continues to push us to think that we are biologically. Otherwise that might be a little too abstract, but that's, that's Kinda how I see it. Chad: Well, I appreciate you taking the time out. I know you were busy here in Nashville doing all your guest tours and stuff. Lane of Valentine skill scout or can they find you Elena: Everywhere except facebook? Yeah. Elena@skillscout.com and got our website, got everything, you know, Google us and you'll find us. Chad: Check them out. Skill scout again, you know we're talking about more than just getting jobs out there. We're talking about experience and it's going to matter and it does matter and WE OUT!. Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks, about each individual transaction. It will find, rank and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. Sovren: To learn more about Sovren AI Matching, visit sovern.com. That's s-o-v-r-e-n dot com. #SkillScout #EmploymentBrand #EmployerBrand #JobDescription #Marketing #StoryTelling

When you make a word up it can be defined any way you see fit. Jeanette Maister, VP of Americas with Oleeo, joins Chad & Cheese for a drive-by interview. She talks brand, rebranding, events, QR codes, diversity, bias, recommending not matching? and much more. Brought to you by our friends at NEXXT. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your bridge to the disability community, delivering custom solutions in outreach, recruiting, talent management and compliance Jim Stroud: Fifty minutes ago, the world changed. Companies are microchipping their workers. Robots are hiring humans and brain-to-brain communication is a thing. This is all happening now. If you want to know what happens next, listen to the Jim Stroud podcast. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast! Jeanette: I just want you to realize my feet don't touch the ground right now. Joel: Aww yeah, should we lower that too? Jeanette: We're good. Joel: Is the weather different down where you are? Jeanette: It's totally different. Joel: Totally Different? Jeanette: Two degrees cooler. Chad: You- Joel: How tall are you? Chad: Definitely have to be the shortest CEO who's been on the show. So this is a first. This is a first. Jeanette: Well, I'm technically not the CEO. I'm just head of all of America. So... Chad: All the... So you're just head of the Americans. Jeanette: Yeah. Head of the Americas. Joel: How tall are you? Jeanette: Four nine and three quarters. Joel: Holy cow. Jeanette: Can't forget the three quarters. [crosstalk 00:01:20]. Joel: Your heels are at least 10 inches high. Jeanette: Yeah so. Chad: Let's make this clear If you head up the Americas... If you head up the biggest market in the world, you are the CEO. Jeanette: You can, you can go ahead and call our CEO and founder. Chad: VP Americas. Jeanette: Actually it's wrong, he's actually managing director [crosstalk 00:01:39] although I hear- Chad: Oh, managing director. Jeanette: Managing director and like other tech companies is a different title. So VP's the better one, but I come from Wall Street and managing director. That's like the top. Chad: That's pretty big shit. Yeah. Who are we talking to? Jeanette: Oh yeah. Who am I? Chad: Hi everyone. This is the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Welcome here. Live from HR Tech. Chad: Live! Joel: I'm your cohost Joel Cheesman- Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: So glad to be here. And who are we interviewing today, Chad? Chad: Well, it's Jeanette, right? Jeanette: Jeanette. Chad: Jeanette Meister. Jeanette: Maister, like the month of May. Chad: Maister, Maister, damn it. Jeanette: Get it right. Not spelled with an "E," "M-A." [crosstalk 00:02:13]. Chad: See... Yeah. I thought I had the Meister. You might know the Maister. Jeanette: There you go! Chad: Okay. VP of the Americas managing director and or VP of the Americas for- Joel: Oreo. Chad: For Oleeo. Jeanette: Oleeo. Joel: Oleeo, sorry. Jeanette: Can't say it without smiling! Joel: Oleeo! Chad: I can't say it without smiling, because you're smiling at me the entire time. Jeanette: Well, you know I'm a smiler. Joel: You know what a funny fact about me? Jeanette: Okay. Joel: My neighborhood is at the cross streets of 96th and Oleo road. Chad: It's not spelled that way. Jeanette: But how is it spelled? Joel: It's spelled O-L-I-O. Jeanette: Well, so, that is actually the original word that our name came from. Chad: It's not an English word is it? Jeanette: You know, if you go back centuries... Chad: I'm just saying it's not in the common vernacular- Jeanette: It is not. Because you can't come up with a name. So we've rebranded a year and a half ago and you can't come up with a name that's in the English dictionary because you can't get the .com for that. Right? So... You got to tweak it a little bit. Chad: Yeah, I guess [crosstalk 00:03:10] spend a shit ton of cash to be able to get that .com. Joel: If you're listening out there. Feel free to Google Oleeo. Jeanette: Oleeo. O-L double E-O. Chad: O-L double E-O. Joel: Please tell me you're a .com and not .ai... Jeanette: We're a .com. Joel: Okay. You're- Jeanette: We're a .com. Joel: You're ahead of the game now. Jeanette: Yes. Chad: You come up with your own name- Jeanette: Then you can get the .com. Chad: So you get the .com. Chadcheese.com. Nobody had the Chad Cheese. Jeanette: Amazing. Chad: Yes. I know. Jeanette: And you didn't have to spell it weird at all? Chad: Nope. Barely. Joel: We're genius marketers. Jeanette: Seriously. Chad: So give us- Jeanette: And you have the cool shirts but not in women's cuts- Joel: Oh, shit, here we go. Jeanette: Which we have to do something about that- Chad: Just like I said, my wife looks hot in this tee shirt, okay? So, I would say that's a women's cut if she looks great in it. And I love when she wears a tee shirt. So, tell us about Oleeo. You just changed brands not too long ago, right? New brand, new colors. Yeah. Jeanette: So, new brand. We used to be WCN, which was not a radio station out of Chicago- Chad: It sounds like it, yeah? Jeanette: But it does, which is why I'm like, we can't. So we've been around actually almost 25 years. So we're a bit old school, but we're a recruiting enablement platform. We have a sign right behind- Chad: She's actually reading the banner by the way. Jeanette: I literally am reading the banner. Joel: That literally means nothing. Jeanette: It means nothing. Joel: Recruitment enablement platform. Jeanette: Yeah. Well, okay so, let's think about sales enablement, right? Joel: Where intelligence meets velocity, which means less to me. It's helped me out. I'm not the smartest cat. Jeanette: Are you sure about that? Joel: I'm totally sure about that. Chad: I can validate. Joel: I'm not the sharpest. Jeanette: We'll bring this down. Chad: Okay. Jeanette: So, what's Oleeo? Recruiting enabling platform. We help- Joel: What's that mean? Jeanette: Full suite platform- Joel: One stop shop. Jeanette: One stop shop- Joel: So you're an ATS? Jeanette: Everything from... Yeah.... We're ATS, we said it. Event management, CRM, interview scheduling- Chad: Really? Jeanette: With a whole overlay. Wait for it. Intelligent [crosstalk 00:05:05] automation with the buzzwords of AI as well. Chad: Oh, instead of AI... Okay, I got ya. Joel: So you're going to be my career site applicant tracking system- Jeanette: We can do the whole thing. Joel: Scheduling... Events- Jeanette: But our sweet spot of what we really focus on is high volume. So when we say high volume, it might be... Joel: Retail... Jeanette: Retail. World's largest retailer- Joel: Warehouse- Jeanette: Might use us for things. Chad: So what makes you so good at high volume? Jeanette: That was what we were founded on was actually way back in 25 years. Campus recruiting is all about high volume. We're great at hiring that same profile candidates over and over and not five, ten, but hundreds of thousands. So we built from the ground up- Chad: Uh-huh (affirmative). Jeanette: Something for transaction hundreds of thousands- Joel: I feel like in that two minutes. We came up with a better booth than what you have now. Chad: That's why we're here. Jeanette: We just hired new global head of marketing. Chad: Oh yeah? Joel: And make sure they listen to this. Chad: Let's break these components down though- Jeanette: Yes, let's do it- Chad: Because talk about a total. Joel: You are everything Chad is against, the one stop shop. Chad: Oh no, I'm not against it. I just don't believe in it. See, yeah. I believe that you should go after... I believe in choice- Joel: I'm not against it. I just don't believe in it. Chad: I just believe in choice, but yet- Jeanette: Yes, choice is good. Chad: If you can modularize it, which it sounds like you can. I'm all for that shit. Jeanette: So we're great. Chad: Yeah. Jeanette: It's perfect. Chad: But trying to shoehorn everybody into a specific one. [crosstalk 00:06:30]. Joel: Jack of all trades and master of nothing. Jeanette: Yeah, you can't do that. Joel: With your model. Jeanette: No, we're actually really focused. Joel: You're a master of all. Jeanette: We're a master of that high volume, hourly- Chad: The high volume, okay- Jeanette: Or like the professional at campus recruiting. So, whether you're [crosstalk 00:06:44] hiring all those... So again, [crosstalk 00:06:46] same profile. Joel: So, now we're talking, now we're getting down to the nuts and bolts here. Jeanette: Now we're getting more into like substance, yeah- Chad: So break it down. Jeanette: So that's what we're really good at. Chad: So, job distribution. Do you have a programmatic play here? Jeanette: We do. We do it through partners. We do have the programmatic play. That's new part. Integrating with that piece. Chad: Okay. Jeanette: Yeah. I mean, you have to now. Joel: Talk about the events management. Are people still doing events? Is that still a thing? Jeanette: Yes. Joel: So what do you guys do for a company, is it job fairs or... Jeanette: Yes. So, well, right now today, Grace Hopper, the celebration is happening in Orlando, which is a huge women tech event career fair. Huge. So, anyways... So yes, people are doing... Especially diversity... Diversity, career fairs are huge. This month there's tons of that going on. We were just at the national black MBA diversity career fair... Let's see, was that last week? So- Joel: So you're telling about your tour. I want to know what you guys actually do to help companies in an event. Jeanette: You go to one of these big career fairs, or if you're hosting one of your own, you have hundreds upon thousands of candidates... Just like here on the X ball here... Well there's not hundreds of thousands of buyers, but if there were, they would be lining up with their resumes. Every candidate gets to go and talk to someone and they have the paper and it's like, "Okay, well how do you as a recruiter..." Or you have your hiring managers or whoever there... How do they deal with that massive volume? How do you get rid of that paper and then get them in, in a systematic way into your technology? So, that's what we do. We help get everyone, use QR code, go in tech, it's all that. Joel: Oh man, did you just say QR code? Jeanette: I did. We actually have one. We do. Chad: That works at a job fair. Joel: You lost me. Jeanette: I lost it. Chad: That works at a job fair. Jeanette: It does- Joel: Does it? Chad: Yeah. Jeanette: And you know what's good about that? Joel: How many have to download an app- Jeanette: No, you don't- Joel: To scan your QR codes? Jeanette: So, okay, you pull out your... Do you have an iPhone? Joel: I do. Jeanette: Okay, so your... If you go to take a picture, you just open up your photo picture and you can do it over and it pops it open automatically. Chad: We'll get back to the interview in a minute. But first, we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt. Joel: For long time. It seems like we were burying events, but it seems like there's a Renaissance in the event sector. Talk about that. Andy: Let's break that into two things. There's the physical events and then there's our virtual events and they're two vastly different avenues. So, what I see in the industry and where things are going to is more virtual events because they're easier to host. Then you have companies that are doing mass hiring events. I mean they're in the news all the time. They're hiring 100,000 people during a seasonal recruiting. Those are physical events where people walk in, they're already pre-qualified in a lot of cases. They walk in, they interview for a very little amount of time, 15 to 20 minutes... Could do the job and they're hired on demand. So, I think in the time where the economy in general is changing to that on demand gig, overnight delivery, two day delivery, three day delivery. It's more important to hire at a faster pace than ever. And the hiring events, whether it is virtual or physical event is the quickest way to do those these days. Chad: For more information, go to hiring.nexxt.com. Remember that's Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. Hiring.nexxt.com. Joel: So, what else? What other products are we talking about? We covered events. Jeanette: Cover events- Joel: ATS. Do you rate- Jeanette: Interview scheduling- Joel: Candidates? Jeanette: We do- Joel: Okay how does- Jeanette: We do a whole... We have a whole prescriptive analytics piece to use another buzzword. They're rolling their [crosstalk 00:10:12] eyes a little bit. Chad: Perscriptive? Jeanette: Yeah. Chad: Perscriptive. Jeanette: Prescriptive. Chad: What does that mean? Jeanette: Or predictive? Chad: Predictive. Okay, so- Jeanette: It's both... Recommendation- Joel: The tech guy just gave you the stink eye [crosstalk 00:10:20] when you messed that up. Jeanette: No. So that's- Chad: Perscriptive. Jeanette: Perscriptive. Joel: He gave you the stink eye- Jeanette: No he didn't. Chad: Yeah. I'd give her the stink eye too. Joel: How did she get to be CEO? Chad: Yeah I'd give her a stink eye too. Jeanette: That managing director. Joel: I can fix that- Jeanette: I like to call recommendations. So we have... Okay, I'm going to say a buzzword, but a whole AI data science, because we work with our customers. Chad: Is that yours? Are you building that or is that a partnership? Jeanette: We are building that. Chad: Okay. Jeanette: We have a team of data scientists. We have a whole partnership with University College London. They have a whole office out in the UK and so we've worked really closely with them to build these algorithms that actually optimize quality. Chad: Yeah. Jeanette: But putting the guard rails on diversity as well to make sure there's... Minimize the unconscious bias that happens. So... Joel: Did you say guard rails? Jeanette: I did say guardrails. I did, I did! Joel: I use those when I bowl. Jeanette: Well, right, so again it helps you to make sure that you know, you don't get a gutter ball... So you don't have a biased process. Chad: It makes sense. Jeanette: You need guard rails. Chad: But still, we have humans involved, there's going to be bias. Jeanette: There's going to be bias. Chad: Right? Jeanette: Right, [crosstalk 00:11:29] so we can minimize it. Chad: Okay. So, you are... How are you minimizing? Do you have a blind kind of thing? Jeanette: So it's actually an... It's actually started going... And I'll slightly geek out a little bit, so... Chad: Okay, go ahead. No that's what I want to hear. Jeanette: So we take... So if anyone knows the Four-Fifths rule of selection with the EOC and the government side- Chad: Yep. Jeanette: They're like, okay... So, we ensure that the algorithms meet that Four-Fifths rule. So, any recommendations that we're making... It's going to meet that Four-Fifths rule. And so, at least whatever that recommendation, it's... You're going to be covered from a compliance standpoint. I was talking to someone earlier about compliance. It's not totally sexy, but at least you have that piece while optimizing for quality. So we're doing both at the same time. Chad: Okay. Joel: So what's new and exciting when we come see you next year at this show? What is going to be the hot thing you're talking about? Chad: They're going to have a new name and colors. Jeanette: We're going to stick with Oleeo... At least another 25 years. And we liked the colors so we're good there. So, actually we're flipping the whole recommendation piece. So, right now it's for recruiters and employers, but now we're going to flip it and we figured, "Hey we can help candidates and recommend they can go to the..." Joel: Is this like a matching recommendation kind of a thing? Jeanette: It's not matching, it's not that old school mat... Where it was like fill out the survey. Joel: But you are scoring? Jeanette: It's scoring but it's literally based on an evolutionary algorithm. Joel: Isn't scoring based on matches? Jeanette: Sure. Joel: So you are matching. Jeanette: I guess you technically could say that, but not really. Chad: So, technically are you parsing data and then matching against your actual AI algorithm to match candidates to jobs? Jeanette: So yeah... I think that... Yeah, looking at what... What's interesting with the algorithm... It's not just taking, let's say, who was successful. It looks at... We can take all different things whether who are successful being interviewed and ultimately hired? What's the performance management data? What's like an assessment score test? We look at all that, and again it goes into this... This is where I'm so not techie, the data science environment, and then looks for the best... I don't know, I guess you could say match or best one that's going to give the best recommendation with those diversity guard rails. Chad: Guard rails. Jeanette: With the guardrails. Chad: For bowling. Jeanette: So, I guess you could say matching, I don't know. My new head of marketing might like that word, might not. Joel: Tomato, tomato. Jeanette: Right. Joel: You know? Jeanette: So... Yeah, sure. Joel: It's just like everybody's doing like either the AI matching- Jeanette: Right, and they're doing... What's the... Yeah, what's our angle versus everyone else? Joel: Or, ZipRecruiter has a recommender engine, right? So it's, yeah. Jeanette: Yeah. Joel: But it's still a AI, right? Jeanette: Yeah. What's interesting is that we focus on, again... What we're really good at is when someone has a high volume, same profile, and then, because we've had... We have a long history in campus recruiting early career. So, we're really good at doing that when a candidate doesn't have a lot of experience... There's college kids, there's only so much. Chad: So here's a question. Job is posted. You pushing out via programmatic, somebody goes through and, and applies or they're engaged, right? Just say they're engaged. How long does it take for me to get that candidate to schedule an interview? Jeanette: So, we have one customer, then it happens as they've applied right then and there, they click submit, and if they right then and there can schedule themselves for an interview. Chad: So right there. Jeanette: So next day. Chad: In minutes. Jeanette: And they could... Yeah. And the next day they can go in for an interview. We have Marks and Spencer UK retailer three days to literally walk into our higher store associate. They get seasonal workers. Chad: Yeah? Jeanette: Yeah. Five minutes for every hire. Chad: See, so right there. That's- Jeanette: Cool. Chad: What's Oleeo? Jeanette: That's Oleeo. Chad: That's Oleeo. Jeanette: That's Oleeo. Chad: Right? Not this stuff that I can't understand [crosstalk 00:15:05]. Joel: Want us to be your marketing team? Chad: Yeah. Jeanette: Sure. Joel: Call up this girl, you hired and just tell her. Jeanette: Done. We're bringing Chad and Cheese on. Joel: You're making it difficult for us. Chad: So, on the diversity play... I mean you guys are very heavy on diversity, not just the EEO Four-Fifths, right? But- Jeanette: Absolutely. Chad: So, why has that always been a commitment? Why is that a commitment for you guys? Why is it so important? Jeanette: That's a good question. I mean, we've all seen research, a Harvard business review. I love... Big geek reading that. Last year they had four diverse teams or 400 times more innovative than on diverse team. And so, we really... Our CEO and founder who is still our CEO, founder, majority shareholder... He truly believes in the power of diversity, diverse thinking and that and even look around in our team. So, Sunday, again our new head of marketing comes in, meets a whole team and she's like, "Whoa, you guys are really diverse," and we have a whole crew out in London and looking around from age, religion, race. And so it actually is like... We really believe in that. So, we figured, "Hey, if we can help our customers..." And again, this does sound a little cheesy- Chad: So you eat your own dog food. Jeanette: We really do. So almost half of our global leadership team are female. Chad: But, it's really hard because all these companies are saying they embrace diversity and they put out these press releases that are warm and fuzzy and full of bullshit and they're not fulling outcomes. So how do you get past that? Jeanette: Well, I mean it's a challenge. I won't say like, "Oh, it's an easy thing." It's explaining, "Hey, this is how we do it. We put up some of these guardrails. You're not going to solve this overnight. It's going to take a while. Again, let's start at one spot. Okay, you're not going to solve all your company and world's problems in a day." And so, to me it's just like taking each step each day. So... And over time it'll start to change. Joel: You hope you grind... Grit it out. Right? Just grinding... Jeanette: Yeah. Slow burn. Joel: Where are you from? Jeanette: New Jersey. Joel: I was going to say... We got a total... Jeanette: I'm a Jersey girl, but I'm living in New York. I've been in New York for, I don't know, 27 years. So... Which is why I'm dressed almost in all black. Chad: So you're seeing a ton of tech here and we were talking about our session. There's a ton of noise here. How do you guys cut through the noise? Jeanette: We're working through that. I mean, I think there's a... Yeah... Dorsey's a piece of it. But it's hard. I mean it's... That's hard. That's a challenge. I think everyone's trying to figure that out and we don't listen, we're relatively unknown. Like you even said, "Who's Oleeo?" So, we need to... We're trying to figure that out. How do we cut through? How do we get more known? So, we have amazing customers, really big brands, marquee enterprise customers, but still relatively unknown. Joel: So on that note, once again, for our listeners who don't know you and want to find out more, where do they go? Jeanette: Go to Oleo, O-L-E-E-O.com. Joel: Thanks for sitting down with us, Jeanette. Thank you. Chad: Thank you. Jeanette: Thanks guys. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. OUTRO: This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible for more visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Events #Diversity #Oleeo #recruiting

We've saved the best for last! Danielle Weinblatt joins Chad & Cheese to talk about ConveyIQ's acquisition by Entelo. What missing pieces will ConveyIQ add? What will change and what sill stay the same. All brought to you by Nexxt an engagement powerhouse. Check Nexxt out at hiring.nexxt.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies find talent in the largest minority community in the world – people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Bottle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Aw yeah, we're talking acquisitions today, baby. Chad: That's right. Joel: They're popping off like hotcakes, man. Everybody was buying everybody. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Show, everybody. I am your cohost Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: Today we are graced with the pleasure to introduce and interview Danielle Weinblatt. Danielle, how are you doing? Danielle: Hi. Joel: You may know Danielle from her days it Take the Interview, ConveyIQ, but now because of an acquisition, she is President and Chief Product Officer at entelo. Danielle, for those who don't know you, give us a quick elevator pitch on you and a little bit about the new company. Danielle: Sure, I'd be happy to. So for those of you that don't know me, I have been building recruitment technology now for almost a decade, which is kind of crazy. I founded a company called Take the Interview, which was one of the first enterprise digital interviewing players in the market. I did that actually while I was still getting my MBA. So created that company literally out of my dorm room from business school. Danielle: That was fun and that ended up being really successful. I still have people who miss TTI and miss that branding. So it's always great to meet someone who used that product. After several years we recognized with high volume recruitment that there were other problems that we wanted to solve for our clients. I expanded the platform and created a new solution called ConveyIQ. We ended up taking the Take the Interview product and making it one module of ConveyIQ. Danielle: That product... it's been a real dream for a lot of organizations that had problems following up with the thousands, sometimes tens or hundreds of thousands of candidates that they would have to follow up with in the hiring process. The system ended up being really the first talent communication platform, post apply, to give candidates proactive updates about their status, coordinate interviews, prepare them, and then basically take them through the entire hiring life cycle. Danielle: Then fast forward until now... it was several months ago, I was talking to a good friend of mine, John Bischke. I was familiar with the entelo product because I had known him for many years, but last year I spoke at his recruitment automation summit. I knew that he was really passionate about figuring out the automation points from end-to-end, from source to hire. Danielle: So entelo, if you're not aware of their platform, they spent a lot of time trying to create automation on the front end for sourcers. And then with ConveyIQ, we've tried to eliminate the headaches with all of the manual touch points, post apply. We talked about what our products could look like together. That original partnership turned into a deeper one. I'm excited to announce that the company that I created many years ago was acquired by entelo in August. Joel: I want to know how many drinks were consumed in that first meeting where you guys thought about, "Hey, we could be good together." Danielle: It was actually over lunch. John was being very conservative, but over the years we had a friendship where we would have a drink or two and we would have musings about the industry, but it was a fairly sober decision, which I prefer. Joel: This journey started roughly six years ago? Was that when Take the Interview was first launched? 2013 if I'm remembering correctly? Danielle: Yeah, that's right. So we launched the first product in 2013 but I had been building out different concepts of what Take the Interview could become for about a year prior to our first release. Joel: Gotcha. Chad: That's one hell of a pivot, right? Going from Take the Interview to a Marketo RMP type of platform, that's a lot to take on. What made you look at Take the Interview and say, "Okay, there's this huge gap, which we could prospectively, hopefully, bridge." But that's a big gap. What made you take that choice to try to become an RMP and go away from, really to an extent, what you were with Take the Interview? Danielle: I think every company needs to think about an evolution. Take the Interview was a great product but it was a point solution. It really only worked for organizations that had high volume roles. What we saw is that if a company was deprioritizing their recruitment for campus or for sales or for community or call centers, frequently they would ask us if there were other solutions that they could leverage that our company offered because they liked our partnership. Danielle: We just really didn't have anything beyond the digital interviewing screening and the two-way video interviewing, which in itself was becoming a commodity. I don't know if you recall, digital interviewing saw a lot of entrants after our emergence, after our initial product launch. There were several players in the market who we all know and they were excellent, but there were a lot of entrants. Danielle: I just believe that you need to consistently be ahead of where the market is going and what people need or else you will be a company that becomes a dinosaur. You will wither away. You'll go into the abyss so you have to think about expansion and more pain points that you can solve for the clients that you know and care about. Chad: Right. So when you're taking a look at this, if from our standpoint we can pretty much take a look at sales and marketing and that industry itself and start to model off of certain products or what we're seeing that could be perfect for recruiting, for an example. Because we're a few years behind, generally, from a standpoint of technology, sales, and marketing. Did you take a look at the Marketos are the exact targets? Did you look to model off of one of those types of organizations or did this just come out of nowhere? Danielle: No, we did. We definitely took a look at HubSpot, which is an amazing client of ours. We took a look at Outreach and Marketo and so there are definitely a best-in-class solutions out there that we examine. But here's the thing, there are still dynamics of recruitment that are very different than sales and marketing that you need to consider. Danielle: To understand a candidate's relationship with an organization and be able to personalize that at scale, I believe is more important than sometimes the personalization that you're sending to a prospect because this is someone's potential livelihood. This is sending a message to someone at the right time so that you can encourage them to make a huge shift in their life. Particularly if you think about passive recruitment, sending communication to someone and convincing them to leave their current situation to come work at your organization. That requires a lot more sensitivity and a lot more detail when you're thinking about communication and and marketing comms. Danielle: We had to approach it by being inspired by marketing automation, but remembering that recruitment is a totally different ballgame in some respects. Joel: The platform wars are in full effect in recruitment. We're seeing iCIMS making a lot of acquisitions. They just bought Jibe, TextRecruit before that. We're Jobvite, Canvas, all kinds of acquisitions. Obviously, LinkedIn's relationship with Microsoft. Joel: You guys seem to be sort of putting your hands together in terms of hoping to create an end-to-end solution from the sourcing and recruiting piece to the... I'm assuming the onboarding and everything else. Joel: How do you guys, am I right and, if so, how do you guys plan to compete with some of these big players with deep pockets or are you hoping to be a platform for maybe a particular niche or a certain size of company or maybe geographically a platform that they can use? Danielle: I think we're still very complementary with the vision that I have for the combined solution. We still integrate with all of the major enterprise applicant tracking systems we're partner of iCIMS, we're a partner of Workday's, of "Taleo's". We can really work as an end-to-end automation platform or communication platform from source-to-hire. Danielle: And so what does that mean? Danielle: All of the gaps that you may see in your existing ATS that aren't working for you right now, we can basically plug that hole. So your ATS, for example, just like if you're using Salesforce, if we're going to go back to that analogy, your CRM system isn't going to tell you which prospects are the right prospects for you. It's not going to go out there and source for a job description for you. Danielle: Whereas, some of the algorithms that entelo has built based on their database, they're able to identify candidates to recommend. Why wouldn't we apply that science to the candidates that are already sitting in your ATS or candidates that recently applied or candidates that are already in your organization that may be overlooked because there's no person focusing on internal mobility. Danielle: When you think about how we can interact, at least on the front end of the process, we can basically understand the roles you're recruiting for and your organization to help you then surface or identify the right candidates that then could be automatically engaged, and then screened, and then scheduled, and then communicated with to the point of hire. Danielle: Your ATS still serves a tremendous purpose. You can still house the candidates in the ATS. You can still have a lot of your integrations, like your background checks and your assessments if you still want to use those integrated with your existing system, but this is a smart layer that would go on top of your ATS or your CRM to basically do a lot of the work that your recruiters are doing manually and take it now from your first touchpoint to the first day. That, to me, is really beautiful. Announcer: We'll get back to the interview in a minute, but first we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt. Joel: What kinds of companies should be leveraging programmatic? Andy Katz: Every Fortune 1000 company out to anybody with extreme volume of jobs. You're recruiting for 20 positions a year. You don't need programmatic. You can go to a recruitment marketing agency or a job board and do a direct email with your company only you're not in with another 20 companies in a job alert or you're not just on a career site or a job board. Andy Katz: You can do banner advertising by premium placements. Where programmatic again is one piece of the puzzle, it's not going to ever be the end all, be all. And I do believe all the programmatic platforms out there have ancillary services to support that, knowing that you can't just survive on a one-trick pony. Announcer: For more information, go to hiring.nexxt.com. Remember that's Nexxt with the double-X, not the triple-X. Hiring.nexxt.com. Joel: Any plans to start an ATS or maybe looking to get bought by an ATS? Danielle: No plans to start an ATS. No plans right now to be bought by anybody. The ink really hasn't even dried on our acquisition. I think we just want to build a great product. We have 600 clients now globally, so that's a lot. In terms of my new role, it's a lot of companies to talk to, to make sure they're getting value from our product. I'm really excited about building this vision. I'm sure there's going to be excitement in the marketplace. Joel: Quickly, logistically, who's moving to California? Who's staying in New York? How does the whole workforce thing shake out with the acquisition? Danielle: The entire New York office remains, so now that becomes entelo East, and the entire San Francisco office remains as entelo West. We have been traveling back and forth weekly. Different members of our teams have been visiting each other's offices. My plan, because we have such a large West coast client base, my plan is to split my time. Basically every two weeks, every three weeks, be in San Francisco. I think it's super important, at least for the next 12 months, to fully integrate our cultures. I'm lucky. I get to stay in Manhattan. You can't beat that. Joel: I was going to ask you which city like better? I guess that answers my question. Danielle: Like I said before, I'm a true New Yorker. If I have too many drinks I will say coffee, but it's great. John and the team have been super amazing, super respectful of our office and our team here and I definitely know I made the right decision by working with them. Chad: Excellent. So 600 clients, most of them I'm on the West coast. Are those mainly, the bulk of them, ConveyIQ or are they entelo clients or are those kind of like a mashing together now of the new company? Danielle: Yeah, it's a mashing together of the new company. I don't think it's a surprised... entelo is obviously larger than ConveyIQ. They brought a lot to the table, but we also had a very formidable client base. Our clients are located all over the world. It's just that where entelo started and I know you're familiar with the legacy product or what they started out doing, which is obviously going to be changing and evolving, but a lot of it was for tech talent. Danielle: When you think about the company it's that we're gravitating towards entelo's products in the very early days. Those were some of the high growth organizations on the West coast that needed great developers, great data scientists, great product managers, so still a large part of our client base. I don't know the exact percentage, but it's high. They're located on the West coast, but we have a lot of great clients on the East coast and all over the world. Danielle: I'm excited. I'm excited to be a part of this. Chad: How long is it going to take for ConveyIQ to become entelo? 'Cause it sounds like that's where you guys are going now as it is. Your title's an entelo title. You have the East and the West, entelo HQs, per se. When is ConveyIQ going to become a product name under the entelo brand? Danielle: We're going to do things differently. It's not going to work like that. When I mentioned an end-to-end solution for recruitment automation, it's going to be one product. There's not going to be a ConveyIQ separate system. There's not going to be an entelo separate system. Danielle: A perfect example is a marriage, right? It's two people who have been individuals for a really long time, but in order to come together as a unit, they both need to make compromises. They both need to figure out what each other's strengths and weaknesses are. And then often they have children so they create new human beings from that unit or from that combination. Danielle: This is very similar. We're not just going to be two individuals or two software systems just put together in one. It's going to be a lot of reevaluation of each other's software and reevaluation of where is entelo strong, where is ConveyIQ strong, and where are we weak. Then figuring out how to really make a beautiful platform together. Expect us, by next year, to have given birth to something that is better than the sum of the parts. Joel: It takes a village, Chad, it takes a village. Chad: So it's not going to be under one br... that was a long answer for, "Is this going to be one brand or is it going to come under a new brand that's not entelo, it's not ConveyIQ." Joel: It's going to be Brady Bunch. Basically. Danielle: It's going to be under entelo. Chad: [crosstalk 00:18:47] Okay, there we go. Danielle: But it's going to be a new product, so there you- Chad: Yeah. Well, I totally understand that. You've got two platforms that are coming together, but under the entelo name, which is, again, from an offering standpoint... entelo has the sourcing automation piece and obviously ConveyIQ, which is... I love this marriage because of... I really saw entelo as a great technology, but it was incredibly incomplete. I think, and I believe, and what it sounds like, is putting ConveyIQ with entelo makes it a much more rounded, holistic type of system so that you're not just going after and providing candidates, you're also giving the availability to engage and nurture those candidates. Is that what is pretty much the longterm vision? Danielle: That's exactly right, but a lot of the automation features and the intelligence are going to be improved as well. I don't want to miss out on that component because of the ability to engage these candidates and know whether they actually end up at that organization or not. You basically have reinforcement learning and you're able to then improve your ability to source and screen as well. Joel: Sounds like Chad approves of the acquisition. Looking at some of the news in recent days with a hiQ's lawsuit against LinkedIn and winning battles in terms of being able to scrape or take profile data and put that into a sourcing machine. Do you have any thoughts on that case or how that might impact entelo in the product going forward? Danielle: That's a great question. It's definitely big news. It's definitely something that we have been discussing. I will be clear, though, that entelo has not scraped LinkedIn data. They don't develop their profiles that way. They don't... cute. They don't develop their profiles that way. It's something we're talking about internally and what the implications are. I don't have it right now on the roadmap to be changing what we're currently doing for the search product, but we just have to take it day by day. Chad: But you got to admit that that opens up more data and that's really... entelo is a data company and they're pulling candidate data, right? If you take a look at GDPR and you have these candidates who allow that to happen... what's wrong with pulling that data to be able to make more of a complete story for an individual that you're trying to target? Danielle: I think those are the pros of this ruling. I think you're hitting on... a person who builds software and who wants to be able to create better algorithms that enable you to find the right candidates and engage them, clearly there are benefits to getting more data. It's like any other algorithm that makes better, more informed recommendations if you're thinking about Netflix or Spotify or anything along those lines. Danielle: I think the reality is that we're not exactly sure the way LinkedIn will react and I think until we have a real sense of how this will play out and what LinkedIn's reaction will be, we are taking a more conservative approach before we start diving in to thinking about how we would use more publicly available data. Danielle: I agree with you. From a product perspective it's great. It's awesome and hopefully it'll make better solutions for our clients. We don't want to do anything without having all of the information available to us and knowing exactly what LinkedIn could do or would do if we were to pursue that route. Joel: Want to keep with some more news that recently came up, you may have seen that HireVue shuffled their investors recently and this is a 10-plus-year-old company that was doing video interviewing, which is something that you know quite a bit about. What are your thoughts on the future of video? Joel: Chad and I had a show recently where I thought the shuffling of investors and not having a liquidation or an IPO or cash out event at any point in the last 15 years was a bad omen for video interviewing. What are some of your thoughts on the current state of that business and where it's going in the future? Danielle: I would agree with you. I think that you can't be... And this goes back to your first question for me around Take the Interview. I love that product. I think it's super helpful but I don't think it's sustainable to just be a video interviewing company. I think you need to expand your value proposition outside of it. I think, perhaps, the way in which they've approached expanding the value prop, I think initially it may not have been the right direction for the company to take. Danielle: Starting to apply algorithms to do facial recognition and understand voice intonation to predict the viability or the fit of a candidate inside of an organization, obviously, it has a lot of issues surrounding it. There's a lot of biases and there's a lot of things that just create complications, particularly bandwidth. Danielle: If you can't see someone's picture clearly on their video, how can you compare that analysis to someone whose picture is clear? There were a lot of issues with the route that they took with their R&D, but I think there's a lot of capable and intelligent people at HireVue. No one should underestimate the CEO and their management team because I think that they probably have something up their sleeve that we're not aware of, but perhaps the historical product execution and innovation, where they focus, hasn't lent itself to a bigger exit. Danielle: Does that make sense? Joel: Yeah, it does. It does. And I'm going to let you out on this and I want you to get a little bit of redemption here in this interview. I was recently quoted as saying that you two getting together was akin to sort of two dinosaurs cuddling at the end of the earth in hopes of surviving impending doom. Joel: You obviously disagree with that and we've had rumors on the show and we've had people tell us about executive exodus at entelo. We've heard entelo was on death watch for the last year. Chad: Life support. Joel: Yeah, this is your chance to say I'm wrong. This is the state of the businesses and here's where we're going in the future. Danielle: Here's the thing, you're totally entitled to your opinion and it could be interpreted that way from the outside and sometimes perception is something that you need to manage towards. I've been on the inside, Joel, and I know the power of their technology and I talk to their clients. I've already done 30 client conversations with existing entelo clients and that product really helps a lot of people. Danielle: Obviously, I built a platform then I know you know is on the verge of this whole automation space and is definitely a new solution that the market is looking for. Everybody's looking for automation. I think when you think about how we can take the business to the next level, I think it is about taking a step back and thinking about a future together, thinking about how we can innovate both platforms to create something that's better together. Danielle: I do not do anything without massive consideration. I did not make this decision flippantly. I think that their product is great and I think a lot of their clients agree. To ask my team, my employees, my investors to get behind something that could be transformational is really fundamentally what I believe. We'll continue to show that in the marketplace. Joel: Do you feel better? Danielle: Oh, I felt good before. I feel fine. I know I made a good decision. I think about it every day. I think you're entitled to have your opinion. I think if everyone in this world was always agreeing with what you're doing, or if everyone was always telling you how amazing you are and how amazing your company is, what would be the reason to try and improve or get better tomorrow? Danielle: I think what you and what Chad do every single day is sometimes give companies a reason to prove themselves even more. You give us a reason to wake up in the morning and say, "You know what? We are going to continue to innovate and push the boundaries of what we can do." I think it's great and I think we have a great company too. Joel: Then we are doing our job- Danielle: Yeah, you are. Chad: Well, Danielle, personally I believe you are the breath of life that entelo needed, to be quite frank. But that being said... new company, if somebody wanted to find out more about you, they want to find more out about ConveyIQ or entelo, where would they go? Danielle: You can email me directly and it's my first initial, last name, at entelo.com. You can also add me on all social channels. I'm very open and welcoming of anybody in the industry and certainly if you have any product feedback or suggestions, I welcome those as well. Thank you so much. Chad: Excellent. Joel: Thanks, Danielle. Don't be a stranger now. Danielle: I won't. Hope to see you soon. Bye, guys. Chad & Joel: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Announcer: Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. Announcer: For more visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Entelo #ConveyIQ #Matching #RMP #ATS #CRM #AI #Marketing #Engagement

What happens when the world's largest CRM moves ATS? Start-ups need to prioritize where they allocate resources and picking the perfect partner platform for your app can be a challenging task. While most HR tech providers rely on companies like iCIMS, Bullhorn, Greenhouse and others, some solutions are looking to a more massive option. One such software provider is This Way Global, or AI4Jobs, who has built its service on a little known platform called Salesforce. Why, exactly? Well, Chad & Cheese dive-in to find out and make quite a few discoveries. For any company questioning their integration options, this episode is a must-listen. Enjoy this exclusive brought to you from our friends at NEXXT. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah, you know what's up. We're back everybody. Welcome to The Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous. I'm your co-host Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I am Chad Sowash. Joel: And on this episode we are privileged to be joined today by Angela Hood from This Way Global, as well as Rich Landry, director of A. Mayer ISV solutions management at this little company called Salesforce. Guys and girls, welcome to the show. Rich Landry: Thank you. Angela Hood: Howdy. Chad: Howdy. Joel: Howdy. Chad: That's the best Texas, howdy. Joel: I'm from Texas. SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: Howdy y'all. So right out of the gate, we hear some things are going on over at This Way Global and with Salesforce. Can you give us a quick intro of yourself, Angela, from This Way Global, and then Rich over at Salesforce. Just a quick intro. Angela Hood: Absolutely. I am the founder and CEO of This Way Global, and we have a product suite called AI4Jobs that serves mid-market and enterprise and solution providers inside the HR tech space. Rich Landry: And then as that large title says, I actually lead a team where we kind of try to be the guide internally and externally to Salesforce's AppExchange where we have over 5,000 different partners working with us. Chad: Wow. What is ISV stand for? Rich Landry: Well, that's pretty cool. That's independent software vendor. So there's lots of independent software vendors. That's IBM, that's Oracle, that's Salesforce, that's everybody. Everyone who builds software. Chad: Got you. Okay. Let's just jump into this craziness. Give us a quick overview, Angela, of this new partnership, this new app that's going to be in the Salesforce app store, AppExchange. Angela Hood: Yeah. We're pretty excited about this. About 18 months ago, we as a company identified there were some pretty significant problems in the talent acquisition space. And we said, "Okay, where can we actually do what the customer wants us to do?" And we found that home inside the Salesforce ecosystem and build a partnership with Salesforce and we launch it here in a couple of weeks. We're pretty excited about it. Chad: Okay. How many people are actually using Salesforce? How many companies are actually using Salesforce as an applicant tracking system? Because we know Salesforce as a juggernaut on the sales and marketing and some of the other industry sectors, but not in recruiting. So why should anybody give a shit about recruiting and why did you guys? Angela Hood: Well, the big point is, there's a small company called Bullhorn that acquired a couple of other really not so small companies, Talent Rover and Jobscience, all built on Salesforce. And so we said, "Okay, here's some of the biggest staffing agencies in the world, including Adecco, Robert Half. They are all using Salesforce to power their ATS because they weren't able to get what they needed from the talent acquisition space as it is right now. Angela Hood: So we said, "Okay, there's something there." We started digging into it more. We found 2,800 other companies that were using it. And then we started seeing our customers say to us, "Hey, we're having trouble because [inaudible 00:03:40.25] sunsetting and UltiPro and Kronos are merging. We don't know what's going to happen. We need a place to go." And they started highlighting that they wanted to get a Salesforce. And so that's why we turned and said, "This is a very customer focused solution, so let's go to Salesforce as well." Joel: A little history lesson here, a little company called Google got into our space a few years ago in a big way and launched a solution called Hire, Hire by Google, which was essentially an applicant tracking system. This past year, Google announced that they were going to be shutting that down. A lot of people had entrusted them, a big name like Google, they're obviously going to be around. And I think a lot of people felt sort of shell shocked when Google said, "We're going to get out of this." So partly, how do you kind of calm any fears of companies that want to either use Salesforce as an ATS or use Salesforce as a recruiting tool in general, that you guys aren't going to turn around and go Google and pull the plug on some of these initiatives? Angela Hood: Yeah, I think that's a valid request. And I think that a lot of customers have that concern. The thing that we really like about Salesforce app network and AppExchange is that you can go in there and plug and play and build up the solution that you need. So a company can say, "I want that from that vendor, this from this other vendor." And they're not requiring on all of us to work together in a partnership. They're also not getting closed out by some of the really big ATSs that don't have an open network. Angela Hood: And that kind of flexibility is what made iTunes and Google Play, all the app exchanges so powerful, because it gave us the customer complete control. That's what we wanted to do. And so that's why we feel like that it's the best move and we're not going to, we're not forcing them to use anything that they don't want to use. They get to use which part of our app that they want. There's four different sections. And we're launching them, we're rolling out in phases so customers can adopt when they want to. Chad: Okay. So overall when it comes to adoption and integration, integration is always a bitch on the recruiting side of the house. For you guys, why are you working with Salesforce? Is it easy for a company to go ahead and flip on an app. What's the time frame, integration time, that kind of thing? Is it a lot of pain or you don't think Joel: And what's the cost? Angela Hood: Yeah. So four hours and if you buy 10 seats or more, we do the integration without cost, additional cost to the customer. Joel: Is it a cost to you to integrate with Salesforce? Angela Hood: Well, so we, the way our relationship works with Salesforce is we pay Salesforce 15%. And that's something that we negotiated with them. We're happy to do that because we feel like there's a lot of value from the ecosystem. And it's same day access to the value that we drive as well because you could get results immediately. Just within 30 minutes of having the installation complete, you have results. Joel: Is the 15% pretty consistent, Rich? Rich Landry: Yeah, very consistent. Chad: Okay. So four hours for implementation, that's it. Pretty much it's just a slow flip of the switch. And then you're talking about 30 minutes, after that you can actually start using the AI4Jobs platform in Salesforce? Angela Hood: Absolutely. Yeah, within 30 minutes and we spent, we have a annual, or I'm sorry, quarterly offsites. We spent an entire offsite three days making sure that we could develop the technology to deliver value within 30 minutes of the installation being complete. So four hours for the installation and onboarding and 30 minutes to value. Chad: Okay. So companies, and correct me if I'm wrong, so using Salesforce as the applicant tracking system, obviously all your candidates are going into Salesforce as the system of record, companies are paying hundreds of millions of dollars to drive candidates into their applicant tracking system into Salesforce. In this case, what you guys are doing is really going against that data to do matching. Can you explain that a little bit more? Angela Hood: Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing we can offer is passive sourcing. So that's, we have 3,000 partners that are on the back-end of this and they're supplying that pipeline, if you think of it like that way, for passive candidates. That includes healthcare, technical defense and clearance jobs, which is huge right now. Then we enrich your current database to refresh your records to make sure that the records you have are current. That's huge. Then we remove the bias from the job description. We remove the bias from the applications and resume. We make the match, we rank in score and deliver it inside Salesforce natively. Joel: When you mentioned Bullhorn and some other big names being integrated with Salesforce, and I would give a little bit of push back to say those guys integrate with a whole lot of systems. For you guys, is Salesforce going to be sort of the end all be all in terms of your integration strategy or are you also looking at integrating with a myriad of other ATSs or other providers? Are you putting all your eggs in one basket or otherwise? Angela Hood: No, no. So we started actually with, our first integration was with Greenhouse. We have iCIMS coming up, we're under contract with them. We've got two or three others that we're finalizing right now. But we really, we saw Salesforce as the most flexible of all of these. And that was why we thought, okay, let's really double down on Salesforce. So this is a big initiative for the next 120 days. And the response we've had has been significant. We have almost half a million dollars in presales and that was just in the first quarter of this year. Chad: We'll get back to the interview in a minute, but first we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt. Andy, if a company wants to actually come to Nexxt and utilize your database and target texting candidates, I mean, how does that actually work? Andy Katz: Right. So we have the software to provide it two different ways. If an employer has their own database of opted in text messages, whether it's through their ATS, we can text on their behalf. Or we have over eight and a half million users that have opted into our text messaging at this point. So we can use our own database, we could dissect it by, obviously by geography, by function, any which way some ... and sometimes we'll even parse the resumes of the opted in people to target certifications. So we really can dive really deep if they want to hone in on, just give me the best hundred candidates that I want to text message with and have a conversation back and forth with versus going and saying, "I need 30,000 retail people across the country." And that's more of a, yes, no, text messaging back and apply. Chad: For more information, go to hiring.nexxt.com. Remember, that's Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X, hiring.nexxt.com. Joel: So explain that, half a million in presales, has that directly because of the Salesforce integration? Angela Hood: Yeah, that's specifically half a million dollars in presales just on the Salesforce app alone. And that was prior to us even launching the app. It was just because there was that much pin-up interest in demand. Because people are just not able to get what they want out of the applicant tracking systems because of lack of flexibility. Some of the platforms just don't integrate well. Just exactly what you just said, takes too long, cost too much money, too much paperwork. People need solutions now, not in three months. Joel: Yeah. So as I look at the AppExchange and when you go in and you can sort of select categories to look through. And if I choose human resources, the first four results of the sponsored solutions, which I assume they're getting free advertising there because they are Salesforce, are Salesforce apps. And the recruiting app which has three out of five stars but only 11 reviews so far. Did any of that give you pause when you were doing your due diligence on Salesforce or were there other things that trumped that? Angela Hood: I think it would have, one of the things we did as part of our due diligence, because we went to Dreamforce this year and actually talked to the other companies that are on Salesforce that also have apps. So the 5,000 companies that are using Salesforce for part of their own business growth. And about 83% of them I think is what's the number came back said, yes, they would be interested in using this technology. Then we also had five very large staffing agencies that came on board before we ever even built the app. And so we felt like we had enough growth potential that it's just a moment, we get to be first, maybe we get to be the strongest HR app. That's our objective at least. Chad: Just from a ... let's go into the tactical kind of play on this. If I'm a company and I have your app, the AI4Jobs app. Is it the AI4Jobs app or is it This Way Global, first off? Angela Hood: Yeah, it's AI4Jobs app. So This Way is a AI matching company, we match other things. But our platform for HR is AI4Jobs. Chad: Okay. So I have the AI4Jobs app. If I post a job into my Salesforce system, which hopefully gets distributed out, will it automatically match as soon as I post, open that rec, post that job, will automatically match to the candidates in my database? Angela Hood: It will. Chad: Okay. How long does that usually take? Angela Hood: It depends on how many applicants you have. There are rate limits that every system has, every applicant tracking system has. Salesforce has rate limits. It depends on that, it depends on what system you're ... how your system is set up. Because each org, each company, org inside Salesforce is set up differently as well. Generally you're going to start seeing your matches within 20 minutes. They'll get backlogged a little bit and once that catches up, you'll start seeing real time delivery. We go through, if you could imagine we can match 25,000 applicants to one job in about two and a half or three minutes. Chad: Say that again please. Angela Hood: 25,000 applicants to one job in two to three minutes. Chad: Candidates rise to the top, that makes sense for them and they can just go about their jobs. I mean, this is something that's embedded in the system. The company really doesn't have to do anything, do they? Angela Hood: No. I mean, the thing that they have to do is, we tell companies, "You need to proactively reach out to these people quickly." If you have applicants that have raised their hand and said, "I'm interested in the company, I'm interested in the job." Then the race is on for top talent. And you're competing against everyone else. So who gets there faster is going to win that candidate. And that's the real power in Salesforce. Angela Hood: There's all these other systems, Pardot and Marketo, tons of other apps that they can add on to help them reach out to the candidate quickly, to be part of the marketing solution. Yeah, so it's ... and I think that's one of the reasons why people really like this, is they get to use the apps that they're already using in the core of the business and no longer is the candidate sourcing and the candidate marketing, that reach out part is no longer a subset that's sitting in talent acquisition. It's part of the core business structure and it gives them a little bit more power, a little bit more play, better access to budget. Chad: Okay. So Rich, on the Salesforce side of the house, is there going to be an effort to focus on companies bringing them in, perspective companies that are using Fortune 500, Fortune 1000 companies that are using your product already, to switch over to use it as an applicant tracking system. So they're using it for sales and marketing. You're already in there. Are you going to focus on an effort to get HR and talent acquisition to use Salesforce as an applicant tracking system? Rich Landry: Good question. And that ... The dogs are shying off, they didn't like that question. But yeah, that really, it looks at ... thank you very much, where the market is and where our customers go because that's the beauty of the AppExchange kind of as Angela mentioned, like an iTunes or an App Store, you can go out and build all the things you want to build. And as you mentioned, Google moved in and they moved out of it. So it really is dependent on our customers and where they go. Rich Landry: But I think, to your original question, I think that is important to our customers to be able to, especially you look at large customers who want to do their own internal app recruiting, have the ability to say, "Okay, can I do this work? Can I do it?" And we have the platform for them to do it. And with Angela and This Way's technology, it makes it even better. As you said, the five minutes versus days of doing what you're trying to do. So yeah, I think it certainly could be. Joel: I think a lot of buyers in our space sort of default to their ATS or some whatever, something that talent management specific to build apps upon. I'm curious in terms of trends, you guys are a bigger platform that people are moving to. Slack, which is obviously a popular messaging system and has their own app store as well that I know recruiters, recruitment solutions are building apps on their platform. You mentioned the iPhone and Android, which most people don't think of, but can really specifically be a recruiting tool or something that a vendor could build upon. Do you feel like this is a trend that we'll start seeing out of vendors, that they'll look at the bigger platforms, the consumer based platforms or maybe the bigger B2B platforms as opposed to the recruitment specific solutions? Rich Landry: I mean, I think you have to. I think you have to. I mean, because everything is so mobile and so quick, like Angela pointed out earlier, it's how fast you get to the candidates, social actors, social media, et cetera, your phones, that's the way of the future. I mean, that's where we are today and it'll get worse and worse, so to speak or better and better maybe. But yeah, for sure. Definitely. Joel: And specifically, so Angela's doing 15% of revenue on your app store, is that pretty much specifically everyone can build for free, but you're going to take 15% of anything that's made. And if I have a free app, can I build on your platform? Rich Landry: Yeah. And our ecosystem or AppExchange has different levels of partnership and how you do things. So it all depends on what you're trying to do as far as the revenue that you share back with Salesforce. But again, Salesforce's value really is the platform, right? You don't have to have any these development costs. You put it on our platform, run it there. And that's why we have 5,000 plus customers out there building with us or partnering with us in the AppExchange. So yeah, it does vary though. Joel: I know that you have sponsored positioning. What is that cost solution provider? Rich Landry: And by sponsor you mean sponsor position on the AppExchange listing or? Joel: Correct. Rich Landry: Yeah, that's, and there's different programs and they have a, it's called a marketing program, different marketing programs, different levels based on where you get different awareness so to speak, within the AppExchange. And that's all part of the program you sign up for. Joel: No pricing you can give me on that, like what they can expect to pay to sponsor themselves. Rich Landry: Yeah. No, I can't give you that. [crosstalk 00:19:15.19] after which program you're in. Prices vary. See dealer for retail. Chad: See dealer for retail. Okay. So from a partnership standpoint, Rich, how many recruiting centric types of apps are currently in the AppExchange? And again, is there really an effort to be able to try to start partnering on this side of the tracks, so that if you are pulling in more great technology, hopefully you'll have some of those customers that are already using It from a sales and marketing standpoint to glide over into the recruiting side. Are you doing that as well? Not just focusing on driving sales efforts but also driving partnership efforts on the recruiting side? Rich Landry: Yeah, definitely. If you look at, like you say, the major things you think of Salesforce as sales and service marketing, et cetera. But there's tons of problems out there to solve and that's the beauty of the Salesforce AppExchange, right? Our customers can have that. Partners like Angela and others solve those problems for us, come in and fill spaces that we'll never ever go into. Rich Landry: And if you talk about, if you just type ATS into our AppExchange, you get 17 hits that pop up immediately, for different players in that space. But it's definitely a growing space. And that's the beauty again of the white space, you can solve that problem and Salesforce never has to go into it, yet our customers are still on the same platform, the same interface, the same usage and that's the beauty of it. Joel: So right now if I go to HR, there are 97 apps in that category according to Salesforce? Rich Landry: Oh yeah. If you're using AppExchange you type HR, correct. And if you type ATS, you'll get 17, you could type different code words. And the interesting thing about that, sometimes that's very accurate, and sometimes it's not, it's a little bit like you could have happen on Craigslist, right? People putting keywords, sometimes there's players out there. If you type in ATS now, you'll see target recruits to topic and Bullhorn. So you're seeing very big players and you see, click recruit and then you go down and see text us for Salesforce, probably doesn't have anything to do with ATS, but again, all about keyword searches. Chad: Got you. So Angela, my last question, in what industries are you seeing quick adoption when it comes to using AI to do matching? Because we've talked about this before. We believe on the show, this is something that every platform should have just from an efficiency standpoint. But you know as well as I do, you probably know better than we do. Adoption is incredibly slow in HR and talent acquisition, but in some industries that's not the case like tech or healthcare. What industries are you seeing quick adoption from? Angela Hood: Yeah, I mean by far there's four major ones. So medical, and medical right now because of what's going on with the coronavirus, it's been insane. Over the weekend, we were getting pounded for, "Hey, can you help us with this? Can you help us with this?" Because they don't know what to call the job or the type of candidate that they're looking for. So they need us to explore the data with them. So that one was, I would say number one right now. Professional roles that are highly technical, so really super specific things that have a lot of acronyms, that's easiest way to describe them. But where people can get the roles confused and the candidates confused easily, our technology understands the difference. Angela Hood: A lot of data and AI related jobs and I would say defense and security clearance jobs is really where we have a sweet spot. And manufacturing I guess would be last. What we don't really see a lot of is our technology being used for fast food hiring, things like that. It's really more professional and higher salaried positions. And companies are saving millions of dollars by being able to identify the right talent, go after them, both passive and active applicants, and then also be able to look at their employees that match the jobs that are live. Joel: Well, Angela, Rich, thank you for your time. So for any of our listeners who want to learn more about you or the Salesforce app store, where do you send them? Angela Hood: Yeah, so we'd love for them to come to the website, thiswayglobal.com. And we will be live inside the Salesforce AppExchange. You can look up AI4Jobs or you can look up This Way Global, either one. And that will be live as of March the 16th, 2020. Chad: Excellent. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Angela Hood: We out. Announcer: This has been The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome #Salesforce #ATS #CRM #partnership #AI4jobs

How does Employer Brand survive a crisis like COVID19? Employment branding pros are not immune to the wave of layoffs happening throughout the world. Will a employer-controlled economy (more people than jobs) need a great brand to land employees? To say the future is uncertain is an understatement, so we brought on EB extraordinaire James Ellis to help us sort out what the profession looks like in a post-coronavirus world. We also discuss the vendors who will thrive, and who will dive, in this brave new reality. This EXCLUSIVE brought to you by NEXXT, better ways to get the right candidates. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions' clients are changing the lives of people with disabilities, including veterans with service related disabilities. James : I think every company walks out of this crisis with a story, and that sort of story is either amazing or terrifying. And they're going to have to grapple with that because that story is their brand. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: What's up boys and girls? You're listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I am Chad Sowash. Joel: And on today's show we are honored to have the great, the honorable James Ellis. Chad: Who? Joel: Employment branding expert on the podcast. James, welcome. James : Get my agent on the phone. This is not the podcasts I agreed to. Chad: That's how we get you. Joel: You're in Chicago, right? James : It's true. I am live in Chicago. Joel: Right. What's the COVID-19 update from Chicago? James : I don't know. My wife only lets me go out of the house once a day, once a week rather, to get groceries. We hunker down, for real. Joel: Smart. James : Yeah. Joel: Good for you. Good for you. James : Yeah. Though I am making my own home-made masks out of T-shirt sleeves. That tells you the state of America these days. Joel: Nice. James, for our few listeners who don't know you, give them the elevator pitch. James : Okay. Well, first off, what's your problem exactly? How? How? How? Chad: It's what I'm asking. James : Exactly. No. I'm James Ellis. I am a self-described employer brand nerd and I feel pretty confident saying that because if you Google employer brand nerd, I am anywhere from seven to four of the first 10 results. Google said I am, therefore, I must be, as we all know to be true. Ah, gosh. I run a podcast called The Talent Cast. I have a weekly newsletter called Employer Brand Headlines. I talk about employer brand, I think about employer brand, I write about them, and build, and launch, and sell employer brand stuff. Really, that's all I do. SFX: Hell yeah. Chad: Did you research the actual keywords for employer brand nerd to know that you could own those words? Joel: Everybody's searching that term. James : Oh yeah. It's a hot commodity. If I tried to pay for that, it would be astronomical. No, it was purely happenstance, as is most of my marketing, where I just realized I was a nerd about this thing, put it in. And then once I went, "Hey, I wonder how hard it is to find me if I type in keywords," and there I was. I went, "I guess I own this one now." Chad: Let's jump into this real quick, because we are hearing left and right from employer brand professionals everywhere that employer brand matters more now than ever. My question is, is employer brand even going to matter after COVID? James : Yeah. That's a great question because ... And it starts with this idea of, what the heck is an employer brand? I always joke that anybody who talks about an employer brand without defining an employer brand is clearly trying to sell you something, and doing so by grabbing you by the ankles and shaking until the change falls out of your pockets. I don't to be that guy. I'll happily sell you stuff, but well, it's not today. Chad: Joel is that guy. Yeah. James : Yeah. Joel is clearly that guy. Excuse me. Pardon me. Take two. Joel is not that guy. I'm not pandering at all. Employer brand is this idea that what one person thinks it's like to work at your company based on a myriad of different touch points and experiences. Called into customer service, had a great experience, yay. Read a news story that one person sexually harassed another person, boo. Has the story that the CEO is screaming at an employee, boo. All the stuff that happens. Recruiter is a spammer, boo. Recruiter's great, yay. All those things add up into a perception of what it's like to work there, and then you aggregate that amongst all of your talent pool, and that's your employer brand. So if that's true, and I'd like to say that it is, not that I invented it or anything, employer brand is a function of, what's your culture, what's your leadership, what's your policies, and what's your options, what's competition option sets. If you break those four ideas down, has your culture change in COVID-19? Well, gosh, I'm sitting in my dining room, you're sitting in your various living rooms, I hope, and not the smallest room of your house, because if so, I don't want to be on that podcast. Because we know what happens there. Everybody's in a weird world of hurt. Everybody's on various telev-conference conversations and phone calls and video chats and all this stuff. And your culture naturally changes because all the informal touch points around the water cooler, the coffee, the lunch, the pop in on your boss ask a quick question, kind of conversations. Hearing when everybody's talking about The Bachelor for whatever reason, or I guess in this case, Tiger King. Getting that level of ... Is that a secret word? Thank you. Thank you very much. Joel: Joe Exotic always gets an applause on this show. James : Okay. Fair enough. Again, employer brand in King. So the culture changes. The employer brand has to take that in account. If you have to ask the question of what happens next? What happens when this is all over? Do we all go back to the office? Should we go back to the office? If we don't, what happens? The culture is taking some pivot, so it does impact employer brand. Leadership. How did leadership respond to the pandemic? Did they say, "Go back to work," and, "What do you need a mask for?" Or did they say, "Everybody go home, take care of yourself, take care of your families and figure it out. We'll figure it out together." Those things are going to impact your employer brand. To quote one Mark Cuban, who I am known generally to quote, it's going to impact your employer brand for decades. How you responded. A candidate is going to walk up and say, "I'd love to work for you except I have one simple question, what happened when the chips were down?" Did you care for your employees or did you not care for your employees? That's your employer brand. Joel: Chad wants to leap into a post-COVID world. I want to have a little bit of context in what we're dealing with six months ago and what we're dealing with now. Because I think a lot of people's perception is, employment brand manager is a nice to have, it's not a must have. I think the perception is, when the economy's great, let's get some employment brand people, things are good. Then things go in the tank, okay, we're not hiring, so the contract recruiters are gone. And I think most people think the next person to go is the employment brand manager. Is that a wrong person perception or is it correct? James : If your sense of employer brand is just recruitment marketing, with a little bit of polish on it, then yeah, probably. If you're not hiring, you don't need that person. That's a completely valid approach. I think it's a wrong approach because I think it's the wrong way of perceiving the value of that person. First off, the reason why we needed employer branding was yes, it was a function of higher competition. The fact that we're competing with more and more companies, more and more places, more and more times, meaning you needed an edge to compete and a brand is a great way to get that edge. If we move into a COVID world where the competition shifts, I don't think the competition goes away even if unemployment skyrockets, which let's be fair is happening right now. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. James : There's need for quality talent change.The fact that it's there, doesn't mean you're going to take the fastest. Recruiting and hiring managers has shown over and over again that even when you bring them three amazing, talented candidates, the hiring manager four times out of five says, "Let's ask for one more person. Maybe there's someone even better out there." Right? That's a pretty standard expectation. Employer brand says there's always better talent to find, maybe this is a chance for your company to functionally level up at different roles to say, "Okay, we could have brought in a B level candidate, but now with competition being a little different, we might look for an A level candidate. Maybe we could bring in someone who might work for one of those big companies." But at the same time, I don't think the competition has shifted that way at all, because two things happen. One, there are industries that are hiring like absolutely crazy, pharma, biotech, manufacturing. All these companies that are going to change because of the COVID virus, they're hiring like crazy, which means the competition skyrockets. The talent hasn't shifted, but the competition has. The other element here is that, because we're in a more remote friendly world, since this has proven to every HR director and hiring manager and leader that everybody can get great work done from their dining room and living room, maybe they just stop paying rent, maybe they just close down the office and everybody works from home, or at least a good portion will. Now what happens there is, that person who is now working from home can now work at any company, and suddenly the number of options they have of where they could work exponentially changes. They could work in Seattle and Florida and Maine and Vegas if they wanted to, if they chose to, which means they can apply to jobs all around the country, if not all around the world. Which means the competition maintains a high level. Which means you still have to answer that fundamental question of why should someone apply? And what is it like to work there? And that's employer brand in nutshell. Joel: Does the EB manager at Applebee's or Chevron move over to Eli Lilly and Pfizer? Or do those organizations keep EB managers, but do they focus more on the state of the current employees and the people that are getting fired in terms of keeping a good state of affairs with them and making sure that Glassdoor doesn't see an influx of tanking reviews? Does the role change or do they just go to another company? James : I think the role does change a little bit, but I think the role has been changing for a long time quietly. If you think of employer brand is purely a top of the funnel, fill the pipeline kind of role, it's a very limited perspective on what the role can do. If everybody knows why they work somewhere, it changes retention, it changes morale. I think that if you really embrace what employer brand can do, you don't see it as a recruiting function, you see it as a corporate function. That marketing of the brand is marketing's job and comms's job and employer brand's job and investor relation's job that are all talking about the same brand, seeing it through different perspectives. If that's the case, yes, Applebee's, I think Applebee's is an interesting conversation because yeah, there's going to be a glut of cooks and waitstaff ready to get a job the second they start opening those doors, but again, should you be elevating your talent? Should you be looking for better cooks and better waitstaff? Should be you not be willing to take any high school dropout who's willing to fill out that application and say, "Great. Congratulations. You're a busboy and now eventually you're going to make to be a server," or are you going to take people who are good at this, who love doing it? At the same time, why do people want to stay there? Because why people stay there feeds why people want to be there. Chad: Here's the thing though, we just came out of a candidate really powered environment, where the candidate really, they're the ones with the James : They're driving. Chad: The decisions to make. They want to make the change. They can make the change. Now we're flipping over onto the employer side, and as from a branding standpoint, we were really focused on what? User experience, nurturing candidates, being able to really focus on trying to create that relationship. Now, don't you think that's all going to go away because the employers, they have the power. And employers only really give a shit, I'm talking about the vast majority, not all of them, about the experience when they can't find people. When they can find people, they don't give a fuck. They'll pay them less and they don't care what the experience is. "Yeah, take 30 minutes to fill out the application. Oh, you don't want to do that? Screw you. You're not going to work here," because there's so much talent out there. James : Yeah. Chad: Don't you feel like that is what we're going back to? James : The talent is out there, but the talent is applying in every company everywhere. So you still have to create an experience as to why. Now I will quibble and I will ... I think you and I probably agree on this a little bit, that the concept of a candidate experience is what you do when you have nothing worth saying. If you have no real good story to tell, you focus on white glove service and speed of application because what the heck? I got nothing else to talk about. I think every company walks out of this crisis with a story, and that story is either amazing or terrifying. They're going to have to grapple with that, because that story is their brand. Candidate experience, I don't think is all that important, unless you have a crappy story to tell. If you talk about how your CEO said, "Everybody has to go to work," "What do you need a mask for?" "There's no lunch breaks anymore," and heck, we can even make the joke about God said we had to keep the store open. Chad: Hobby Lobby. James : Thank you for good catch. That's the story. That's going to be their employer brand. That means certain people are going to say, "I'm never going to work here ever again." So you're going to have to get someone to work there. I don't know that we're ever going to get to the point where, maybe it's the point where you can put any idiot in any job and it'll be fine, but I don't think that's the case. I think companies for the most part, value talent on some level, even if it's not as high as I would like them. Even if once they look at it deeper, they understand how important talent can be. I think they will want better talent. I think they will use this opportunity to level up who they hire, who they bring in, because they are still competing against the biggest companies in the world all around the country. Announcer: We'll get back to the interview in a minute, but first we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt. Chad: Andy, if a company wants to actually come to Nexxt and utilize your database and target texting candidates, how does that actually work? Andy: Right. We have the software to provide it in two different ways. If an employer has their own database of opted in text messages, whether it's through their ATS, we can text on their behalf. Or we have over eight and a half million users that have opted into our text messaging at this point, so we can use our own database, we could dissect it obviously by geography, by function, any which way, sometimes we'll even parse the resumes of the opted in people to target certifications. We really can dive really deep if they want to hone in on, just give me the best hundred candidates that I want to text message with and have a conversation back and forth with, versus going and saying, I need 30,000 retail people across the country, and that's more of yes, no text messaging back and apply. Announcer: For more information, go to hiring.nexxt.com. Remember, that's Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. Hiring.next.com Chad: well, here's a great example. Amazon, before this, did not have a great employer brand, people pissing in trash cans, haptic bracelets, all that shit. Now, during COVID [Crosstalk [00:14:24.21] James : They're the safest. James : They have 10 locations. They have employees saying, "Hey, we just want to work in a safe environment." What does Amazon do? They stamp that out. They fire the dude. They call him inarticulate. But yet during this whole thing, they've hired 80,000 people in the snap of freaking infinity gauntlet, for God's sakes. James : Pretty much. Chad: You would think that if we're looking at the employer brand matters conversation, that these guys would have issues trying to fill those positions, but we also have to take a look at the economic impact. My question is, if a shitty employment brand like Amazon can do this, all these other companies are going to be able to do it too. James : I think Amazon is a great example, but it tells a slightly different story. Yes, everything you said is factually true and we can even ... Many of us remember the article that came out in the New York Times about what a horrible place Amazon corporate was. Everyone was crying at their desks. Everybody's really brutal. Everybody's obsessive, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I remember at the time talking to someone at Amazon and saying, "Hey, look, just between you and me, how accurate was that article?" And they said, "It's a hundred percent accurate. We just frame it differently. We see those things as good things. We see ourselves as the kind of people who push ourselves." Which to me says, Amazon understands a little bigger picture than just how everybody put the butts in the seats. Now, to go to your point. Yes, all those things are factually true. Yes, there are some horror stories that comes out of this process for Amazon. At the same time, without Amazon delivering groceries, more of us would be sick. More of us would be living with our kids going, "I don't have a workbook to give my kid to help him or her get through school while we're stuck here." Amazon on some level is also the savior as well as the villain. They have a very complicated story they can be telling depending on who they tell it to. Managing that story, being able to ... Think about anybody you've ever dated, they've never been saints. They've always been some good and some bad, and you've had to manage expectations of what's okay. What am I okay with? Am I okay with the snoring in bed? Am I okay with a bad tipping? Am I okay with ... What am I okay with in this person and still lets me feel like a good person for being with them? These are the kinds of complicated relationship-driven conversations Amazon, and let's be fair, every company is about to have, and that's still their employer brand. Employer brand just isn't as simple as, what's the poster? What's the tagline? What's the hashtag? What's the social post? It is a deeper, more meaningful conversation because to be fair, jobs are ways of life. Jobs are how people identify themselves and think about themselves, so they have a level of depth of thought that, what cereal do I buy? What laundry detergent do I buy? Doesn't ever get into. Chad: This feels like an ongoing political campaign, where it's a constant spin for these brands. We have the four year cycle and obviously we're watching presidential candidates spin the shit that they've laid into, but this feels like a political cycle campaign that just is going to continue to have to run. James : Yeah. And I think there's, it's interesting because in the US, where presidential campaigns are considered, it is usually a split, I pick A or I pick B. I pick this person or I picked that person. Those are my only choices. I'm not going to throw my vote away on a third party candidates, so to speak. That's the joke, right? Jobs, there's no AB, there are literally 18 million businesses in North America alone I could apply to. If you go to any big old job board, I don't have to name any names, and I type in my job title, there are hundreds if not thousands of jobs around the country, many of whom offer remote opportunities I can apply to. And that's where things get more complicated, the competition is much higher. So you do get, like in Europe, where you have small parties and third parties and fourth, these coalitions of parties that come together to form the governing body, we don't have that same kind of split. Though I think the conversation of an ongoing campaign, a perpetually never ending, always evolving, always changing with the times, always responding to the news is a hundred percent accurate. I think that's really interesting. Joel: We're undoubtedly going to lose some people in this profession through this downturn. In many cases, I've been through two of these professionally, and a lot of the recruiters that recruited don't come back to recruiting. They go sell software or something else. Do the people who get laid off come back to employment brand? Do they try to get a job in marketing? Do they go do something totally different? Are the jobs there in six months to a year? What's your take on the unemployed? James : Being an employer, brand person is a job only insane people take, and I number myself among those numbers. Because, I can't think of another job in which you have the entire company on your shoulders, right? What the leader does, what the customer service does, what the product selection is, what the marketing campaigns are, who you hire, how you hire, the candidate experience, the recruiters, all of that stuff impacts the employer brand, which you are ostensibly owning. However, you have no control to change any of those things, at best you can be an influencer for those things. Those are some really weird skill sets that are going to play in a lot of different places. I think there are opportunities to move to marketing. I think there are opportunities to move to other spaces. But I think employer brand is still a weird insular instinctual. We all know each other. We all understand where the jobs are. We look, we're a club, and once you get into it, it's possible to find new opportunities. The trick is, it's the people who were junior recruiters who had a "flare for marketing", who are elevated to employer brand specialists to run the event and maybe tweet occasionally. Those people are not coming back, because they were never really in it and of it, they were just doing the job they were given. I get that and it's a valid way of seeing new roles and that's the way it should be, but I don't think they're the ... Maybe one out of 10 come back because they found a way to fall in love with it. Chad: Don't you feel like this is really employer brand's opportunity, their window James : Yes. Chad: To be able to focus on business and how this experience and everything that an employer brand does, internally from a retention standpoint, externally from a candidate, not to mention also touching all of those customers to be able to bring a business case and business terms to the C-suite to say, "Hey, in a crisis, this is exactly why you [Inaudible [00:20:47.06]." Joel: Prove value. James : Yeah, exactly. And we've seen that case for a while in bits and pieces here and there. Wells Fargo, after they get sued into the ground, what's the first thing they do for the marketing campaign? Meet the tellers, who had nothing to do with screwing you out of a whole lot of money and making a bunch of accounts. These are the people with the jobs. Papa John's, he's a schmuck. Great. Let me show you the people who own the franchises. These are the good people who are bringing you pizza. Chad: Yeah. James : Employer brand has been the go-to crisis PR move for four or five years now, we just never really labeled it as such. And now as more companies see that and can understand how to tap into that, they absolutely will. And there is a very clear business case of how you can do that. But I think the real opportunity, and I think I'm starting to see it in places, is seeing the brand as a holistic idea, not as, this is the part that's owned by marketing, that's the part that's owned by comms, that's the part that's owned by recruiting, It is one brand. And to be fair, businesses need to mature to be able to understand and grapple with the conversations around that. They can't just jump to that. They can't say, "Great. We've got a holistic brand. Yay." You got to get your butt kicked. You got to do things wrong. You've got to figure out how to see employer brand beyond putting butts in seats and filling a pipeline. It's got to be about, how do I make the case that how a person does their job is a reason why people buy the products? Marketing loves that, once they realize that, and they love to jump in on that. I think you're 100% right. This is the chance for smart brands to say, if I take this a little more holistically, there's a huge opportunity to market both the products and the talent that creates the products at the same time. Joel: Really cool. We have a lot of vendors and solutions providers that listen to our podcast. And right now there are a lot of them that service the employment brand community. There's some software obviously, video, agency-wise. Just like employment branding is sometimes a nice to have, the products around employment branding are nice to haves as well, and those are going to get cut. If you're able to put your vendor hat on, what would you be pivoting to? How would you be changing what business are most at risk in this environment? James : I'm a deeply cynical, black-hearted human being. I think you all know me well enough to know that that's 100% true. Thank you. Thank you so much. Chad: Join the club. James : I appreciate the studio audience here. That's really nice that you put that together. Joel: Yeah, no problem. James : I'm a cynical bastard, no question. I think that people spend money when they have no idea what to say. That the vendors are often a crutch for some ideas, but if you have a vendor who can help you understand what makes you different, what makes you special, who can co put together a holistic, comprehensive idea of why people should want to work for you. I talk to lots of companies who say things like, "Oh, the reason why people should work for us is because we're innovative and we make an impact." And I say, "Okay, great. Let me show you the top 10 companies in your industry, and they all say the exact same thing. So explain to me how you can differentiate on that." If you have a smart message, the channel selection, the software, the tools, the marketing campaign on top of it, I'm not going to say it's not useful, I'm simply saying a smart, well understood, well-defined message is the beginning of everything. If I have no money at all, I focus on my message and how to get it out organically. And then as I get any money or any vendor budget whatsoever, I figure how to amplify that message. But it starts on what makes you special? What makes you different? How do you tell that story? And maybe it's because I come from a content marketing background that I think that way, that money is secondary, that budget is secondary. That's how I approach it. I think there's plenty of ... Every vendor who tells you that they are the employer brand solution is lying to you, they are a employer brand. I think Glassdoor spent a lot of money and a lot of time trying to tell everybody in the business that your rating was your [glassd[00:24:34.07]] with your employer brand score. I think we've all gotten pretty wise to that, that's not completely true. In fact, they actually have gotten wise to that. They're not talking about that anymore. Anybody who tries to position employer brand as a thing is not right. Anybody who says this is a way to push your message to a given audience and that's the exact audience you want to reach, great. Spend the money there. In terms of how you do it and what companies are going to be best positioned to do great work, I couldn't tell you. I think it's about your depth of getting to see some consolidation. I think they're probably way too many players in the space right now. All kinds of scrambling for what seemed to be a lot of recruitment marketing budget last year, back when there was a lot of budget, there's not going to be the same kinds of budget. It's going to be a focus on why, who, who are you, what's the message and the core baseline stuff. Chad: Well, James, the reason why this show is so special is because we have special guys like you on, answering the hard questions [Crosstalk [00:25:25.11] Joel: We love you James. James: And by special, you mean on the short box? That's valid too. Chad: Well, I don't know that you're supposed to say that anymore, but okay. James: Is that not cool? Chad: I don't know. James : It's fine. Joel: Thank God I didn't say it. Chad: That's usually reserved for a Cheesman comment. Joel: We're going to have James on as a guest way more often. James : You acquainted me with Joel? Oh, I feel bad. You're right. I've made a mistake. I've made a horrible mistake. My apologies. Chad: All of our listeners who, they're, they're not subscribed to The Talent Cast and they want to learn more about James Ellis and all this cool shit that you do, where would they find you? James : The Talent Cast is thetalentcast.com or anywhere you get podcasts. And the newsletter that comes out every Monday morning is called employerbrand.news. Feel free to subscribe. It's a kind of a no pitch zone. It's really about how do I help the industry and people in it stay smart by distilling lots of news stories into a five minute read it. Really, that's what it's all about. That's probably the best way. Otherwise I'm on LinkedIn, Twitter, and blah, blah, blah. Joel: James Ellis, everybody. James : Thanks everybody. Thanks guys. Chad: Excellent dude. Thanks for joining us. James : Thanks guys. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #EmployerBrand #EmploymentBrand #Brand #Branding #Leadership #JamesEllis

Think you know what Indeed is up to? Well, we have someone on who might definitely know in Alex Murphy. Grab your tinfoil hat and enjoy. Another Nexxt Exclusive! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. James Ellis: Hey, this is James Ellis from the Talent Cast Podcast, and you're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. So perhaps treat this message like an intervention. Why are you doing this to yourself? You have so much to live for. Why would you waste your time here, of all places? Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Let's get ready to podcast. What's up, kids? I'm Joel Cheesman of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, joined today by my cohort, Chad Sowash. Chad, how you doing? Chad: I am awesome. Joel: Special guest today. I can't believe it's taken this long to get him on the show. Alex Murphy, CEO of JobSync. Man, welcome to the show. How are you? Chad: Here he is. Alex: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. Chad: There he is. Joel: Sounding great, Alex. So we brought you on today to talk about one of the most important issues in humanity, pane view for job sites. What is it and why does it matter? Alex: Well, I think it's probably the second coming of the Messiah, I guess, in terms of the size and importance on humanity, as you put it. Chad: Right below climate change and right above ... I don't know. Alex: 40 miles to my east is an orange dude that I think is a bigger issue than pane view, but we're not going to talk about that. Chad: Yeah, so there was actually an Appcast survey. Chris Foreman wrote up an article around what they've seen since Indeed's pane view came into place, and it's double prices for clients and, instead of them actually getting the traffic to their career sites, that just pretty much is all blown away. So they get about half the amount of traffic and they're paying twice as much. Because when an individual clicks on an actual job on indeed, it doesn't take ... That used to take them, much like Google, it used to take them to the corporate career site. But now Google doesn't even do that, for God's sakes, right? Google is even in pane view with Google for jobs. So why is this a good thing for jobs? Why is this a good thing for the industry overall? Alex: Well, I think first and foremost it's about the candidate experience. And just kind of taking that phrase that is used probably too often to justify all sorts of different initiatives, it's probably really important to talk about what candidate experience is not. And a really pretty corporate job site experience does not translate into a better candidate experience. A better candidate experience is ease of navigation, speed, don't make me answer questions, the same question over and over and over again. And you know, pane view is one component which really ... Just to take a step back, the pane view concept is really a user experience on a job site where you see the search results on the left and the job over on the right. It's a layout that's really good for a large monitor desktop. It doesn't impact mobile. Pane view as not a function on mobile devices. Alex: The Appcast data in Chris's article related to desktop traffic, but it does not include mobile traffic. I got that confirmed this week. And it only includes the performance of the ATS apply path, meaning this is only measuring the performance of your sponsored spend when a person leaves the job site and goes to the company's page, be it an ATS or a corporate career site, and then applies on the ATS. It does not include anything like a native apply experience, like what you get if you use Indeed apply, Zip apply. Glassdoor has a native apply experience, Stack has a native apply experience. Facebook's entire platform, with a few exceptions, is all native apply experience. So it's important to understand what it is and isn't. If you go back 20 years ago, every job board hosted the application. And these applications were sent out by email and to the recruiter, and ATSs started to become in vogue, and so then job seekers started to leave the job sites, the aggregators removed the job description step so as to reduce friction. Alex: But at this point it's so disruptive to take the candidate off of the job platform and over to this ATS path, where they're asked too many questions. They have a disruptive experience. Often that experience is very slow to load. It's a disaster on mobile in most cases. And so all of these things roll up into what's legitimately a real issue for anybody that's a job platform operator, needs to figure out how to deliver the goods of what they're selling. And the goods are high quality applicants, and enough applicants to to meet the needs of the advertiser. Chad: So an employer is actually paying for ... I mean, in the olden days before pane view, getting that job seeker to their corporate career site. So if they do go through the application process, they're at least paying for that branding experience. That's not happening now. So if you click on the actual job and it displays the description in Indeed, you get charged for a click, right? Where before it would take you to the website. So why isn't Indeed saying "Okay, hey, we want to do the best for job seekers, and pane view definitely has a much quicker, much faster, easier way to go through and browse through job descriptions," but why are they paying on that click instead of the click when an individual clicks on the apply? Why wouldn't they just go that route? Because that's what the actual employer's paying for. They're paying for that person to come into their experience. Alex: It's a fair question. Well, if you think about it from just the perspective of Indeed, and I think most job boards will follow this path, Indeed is solving for a larger problem, which is to move and migrate more employers to their native apply experience, which is Indeed apply. This is the search result or the jobs where you see the little "easy apply" designation inside of the search results. It's the experience where, when they open the job, they see an orange "apply now" button as opposed to the blue "apply on company website" button. Those jobs that use Indeed apply get much more visibility within the platform. And Indeed's data says that if you use Indeed apply, you get up to eight times more applicants. Chad: Isn't that because they actually show them higher in the search engine results? Alex: It's a combination of things. So number one, there's no question that they're getting more visibility within the platform. Number two, they're reusing the candidates' data that they've already entered on indeed. Number three, they're not sending them off to a different website, so in the inner web, so to speak, there's all sorts of data flow and caching of browser pages and style sheets and so forth that make for a much faster experience when you're viewing the fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth page on a website. When somebody goes to a new ATS, they have to load all of that data in the browser. If you're on a slow mobile connection, it's a disaster. If you are on a mobile device as a job seeker and you end up on one of these applicant tracking systems that's not optimized, as most of them, at least most of them in the context of the jobs managed, then you're often blocked from even being able to complete the action. Alex: And so there are maybe five or six different points in that funnel where job seekers fall off and don't complete the apply. So 18, 20 years ago, conversion rates from a job view to an application submitted were upper double digits. So %50, 60%, 70% application rates, because you could reuse the profile information and there weren't 80 questions asking for everything that was highly inappropriate to ask for at this stage in the application process. And with the ATS there are way too many instances of companies inserting too many questions and ultimately driving up the amount of friction so the job seekers don't convert. Joel: You mentioned mobile earlier, and I don't know the most current numbers, but I know that a lot of job seeking, applying happens on mobile devices now. Is this two-pane talk a lot of much ado about nothing because most of the stuff that's going on is going on a handheld device anyway? Alex: The part that's relevant for both is that it's really about viewing a job description on the job site. In this case we could talk about it from the context of being Glassdoor or Monster or Indeed. They've had very different paths to get to where they are today, but now the user experience is very similar. In the case of aggregators like Indeed, they had exactly the experience that Chad was talking about, where you go from search results directly off to the corporate career site to view the job. Rewind eight, nine years ago, they went to job boards first and then they had to go through the reg path hell on job boards, which, in full disclosure, I built a lot of those bad reg paths. And so I understand that perspective very well. Alex: So Indeed has constantly, from very early days, focused on a quality experience for the users. And they're looking at the data and they can see, especially when they're held against or compared against other services like Hired, where the entire experience on Hired takes place on Hired. And if you're trying to compare your money spent on Indeed and you're being compared against Hired, and Indeed, their performance is dictated by whether or not they generate enough applicants that turn into starts, and the major friction in that process was the apply on the ATS, Indeed's kind of looking at this saying "That's not quite fair, is it?" So Indeed is morphing to look more like what job boards have looked like historically, with the job description in full on Indeed. And even going further back in time, like I was saying before, to actually host the entire applicant experience on Indeed. And that's what most everybody is moving towards. Speaker 6: It's commercial time. Nexxt: Okay, so we've already established texting is probably the best way to connect with candidates, right? Plus, Nexxt stats show 73% of professionals are open to receiving job opportunities via text, and with a 99% delivery rate. You cannot go wrong. Those are two big reasons why you got to love text to hire from Nexxt. That's right, text to hire from Nexxt. With the double X, not the triple X. Nexxt has over 8 million candidates who have opted in to receive jobs via text, and you and your clients need qualified candidates. Nexxt can help you find and target qualified candidates who have opted in for job opportunities via text, and in today's competitive market, you need an edge to reach qualified candidates faster. You need text to hire from Nexxt. Just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Nexxt logo to learn more about how you can gain a competitive edge with opt-in texting. Text to hire from Nexxt. It just makes sense. Speaker 6: It's show time. Joel: Yeah. I can remember 10 years ago iPhone came out and apps were starting to be developed. And Indeed at the time had the entire job description of everyone they were aggregating, which at the time was pretty nuts, right? You think about, imagine if Google, if you clicked on a search result, just showed you the page within Google that you were going to. There were actually laws against that, but I had a conversation with CareerBuilder and said "Look, why are you guys letting Indeed do this? They're basically taking you out of the entire equation." I think the answer I got was "Well, we want people to have as much access to our jobs as possible, yada, yada, yada." And certainly what we've seen 10 years hence, the job board is more irrelevant probably than ever because of the sort of job search platforms like an Indeed. If you're a job board right now, are you helpless to do anything about this? Are you happy about it? Are you fine with it? What is their perspective in all this? Alex: Well, I think it's interesting that you characterize Indeed as not a job board. And this whole discussion about, are job boards dying, or when will they die, or whatever, I think that the proper way to frame this is, job boards are an analog to what portals were, like Lycos and Yahoo. And there's a rise right now of, really, job platforms, where the entire experience will stay 100% on the job platform. So Stack is moving very much in this direction entirely. Hired is there, Indeed is moving there. Facebook's coming into the business this way. If you look at what the Google experience is, it's not a search and click off, it's a search and then you're looking at the portal and you can start to digest and gather information. They're aggregating all the review data and company data, trying to build like one page that does a great job of helping you understand as a job seeker, is this a good job for me to apply to or not? And then giving them the methodology to determine, or the choice to determine where they want to go apply for the job. Alex: And so they've got four or five choices, and that's how they're kind of positioning themselves in a stack. If I'm a mid-size job board, I'm trying to think about the exact same stuff as it's related to, where is the market headed. And you had a show, I don't know, probably three or five weeks ago, and you had Andy Katz on, and you guys were talking about the apply experience, right? And somebody out there needs to create the ability to deliver the application directly into the ATS. And it's that type of integration that is what's needed in the space. And you know, there are service providers like ours and JobSync that do that. We deliver Indeed apply applications directly from Indeed directly into the ATS, and we support legacy ATSs. There are ATSs that have direct integrations, like Workable. Alex: And that integration layer, we are years behind in our space. Go figure, we're always years behind, right? But we're years behind making those types of integrations normal. But if you look into other verticals like travel, shopping, and others, it's common for these integrations to happen. If you go to United and you buy a flight to Sweden to go visit Tengai, you can in the same transaction add your rental car. Although you probably wouldn't get a rental car there, but you can add your hotel, you could have bought the entire package on Kayak or Expedia. If you go to Amazon you can buy stuff that's sold by Amazon or 3,000 other retailers that are selling directly through Amazon. And so this whole kind of evolution is really the Amazon-ification of job boards. Chad: And it sounds like Indeed's forcing ownership of the apply, they want to own the apply. In your opinion, will Indeed make that mandatory, that you have to use Indeed apply to be able to be on our platform? Alex: I don't think that they will "make it mandatory." What they will do is they will make it something where you are compelled to do it because your performance will force you to. So right now if you go on Indeed and you run a search for any company that has like locations or lots of stores and that kind of thing, so take any kind of restaurant. If that restaurant's using an ATS, it's not integrated, that means that the only experience they have is one where they can put their jobs in, and the user has to click and leave Indeed to go to the ATS to apply. And in some cases that experience is just a complete joke, right? So I've gone through ATSs in the last week where for a dishwasher job I have to create an account with a super-secret password, and it gets difficult for me in the business designing products to even get through their password creation function. Alex: It's just laughable. But what you'll find in there is you'll find cases where a company that has many locations and restaurants will have instances of jobs that are labeled as easy apply. What's happening there is the people in the field are not getting the applicants that they need in order to fill the jobs that are open. And they drive back and forth to work listening to the radio, they hear 45 times a day, "Go post a job for free on Indeed, get started on ZipRecruiter for free," and they're taking matters into their own hands and they're going to Indeed and they're posting jobs. They end up sponsoring those jobs, they spend $10, $20, $30 a day. They are getting these applicants in their email rather than in the ATS, but they're making their hires. Alex: It's an experiment that's being run, not on purpose. It just happens to ... It's happening. And the corporate TA organization is seeing this happen, and they're seeing the difference in outcomes. And it's not just on Indeed, right? It's any of these companies, any job platform that has a native apply experience is seeing material difference in performance in terms of application generation if they retain the application experience, versus sending the user off to an unknown process. Joel: We talk a lot about chatbots on the show. And one of the fascinating things I think about chatbots is, they're essentially made to make the mobile apply process easier, right? So instead of clicking a link to upload or connect through LinkedIn or apply through whatever, you're having a conversation like you would a messaging experience. And in that messaging experience you're applying for a job even though you may not even know it while you're doing it. So the fact that you brought up the ZipRecruiter and the email thing was interesting to me. And I'm wondering your thoughts on, at what point does apply get replaced by "chat with us" or "connect with us," and it becomes a chat experience as opposed to an upload your resume experience? Chad: Which is a better experience, right? Alex: Well, I think the better answer is it's all of the above. So before my time at Beyond, I was in an e-commerce business, and we put our phone number in like six or seven different places on the homepage. And the way that we got to that point, we didn't start that way. We had our phone number in one place and we had people sending us emails through the "contact us" link saying "I can't find your phone number," even though it's right there on the top of the screen. So we're like, okay, that's kind of weird. So we put it in another place and then another place, and then we just saw our call volume go up. And I bring up that story because different people look in different places. If you've ever looked at a heat map of where people look on the website, there's the whole reverse C thing, and different patterns people follow. And I think that if you are looking to solve for conversion optimization, then you should probably have a chatbot. You should probably have a link that says "apply now." You should probably have an email box. Alex: And all those things on your corporate career site, you should do all of them. You should make the flow easy. You know, one of the early wins in any engagement that I do in the consulting work that I do, if we're doing user acquisition, is to look at what their form looks like and to reduce the number of fields on each screen, even if that means making the number of screens way more. So just to be gross in the example, if you have 20 fields that you need to collect, you could literally expand that out to 20 screens, which is essentially what a chatbot is doing. It's asking for the data points one at a time. And that's the remarkable invention, is it feels personable even though people really feel like they know it's a bot, and it's asking the right question. This question right now, and I can answer that question. I don't have to think very deeply about it. Alex: And thus conversion rates go up. But you could literally do that in a form. You could have 20 screens in a form, so long as it was fluid and easy and it didn't require a four-second page reload on the next one. Tim Sackett was on, he's talking about this story that he tells over and over again about, your 10-year-old knows how to go find a lost dog. They know that they have to put posters in the grocery store and the post office and on the telephone pole. And that that's what works because you're going to put the posters where everybody is that may have seen your lost dog. And what you wouldn't do is, you wouldn't just put the poster of your lost dog on your front door. Because nobody comes by your front door. And the moral of the story is, you've got to put your marketing message where the people are and you have to make it really easy for them to connect. Joel: That's great, but that's expensive to do. And so what do you tell the company/job site/ATS that's spending more and more money to get that traffic and having their cost per applicant go up? And by the way, you mentioned advertising on things like Facebook, Instagram, etc. If people aren't going to your site, you can't retarget them from going to your site, and then they leave and then go to social media, which I think is a problem as well. It's great to think it's a better user experience, but I as the advertiser am not able to get my message, retarget that message to people on other sites. So what are your thoughts on, I guess, that question of more expense and more cost, as well as not being able to do things like retarget or build your brand through that mechanism? Alex: First and foremost, your cost per applicant is a moving target. And so it requires essentially constant attention. And if you have a sourcing strategy for your job advertising campaigns that includes delivering the candidate directly into your applicant tracking system rather than having the candidate go through extra steps, you actually will see a massive reduction in your cost per applicant. And so that's the net net, right? And so if you go back to the ERE article, this is specifically talking about this flow, where people are going through the ATS and going to apply on a desktop. This is becoming more and more expensive, and that's not a new thing. That has been a long-time reality, because the candidates are leaving a job site and %90+ are not converting. Alex: If 90% don't convert, then you're probably wasting a lot of money on that retargeting campaign, because retargeting somebody to come back to a broken application flow isn't going to result in new applications. It's going to result in wasted money on retargeting. And so the point of the "find my dog" example is, if you can get that application data dropped right into the workflow of your recruiter in real time, now you're really accelerating your time to hire, you're reducing what your cost per candidate is remarkably, and your cost per hire will go down. And so holistically it's just a much, much better experience. So that's where I would land on it. Joel: Yeah. Excellent. Well, Alex, man, we thank you for your time, dude. For our listeners who want to know more about you, where would you send them? Alex: Jobsync.io is where you can learn more about what we do to help facilitate this integration solution for companies, and hit me up on LinkedIn any time, and I'd love to connect. Thank you. Joel: Thanks, man. We'll see you in Austin. Alex: Sounds great. Thanks guys. Joel: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors, because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Indeed #PaneView #Monster #GoogleforJobs #Appcast #ATS #UX #ZipRecruiter

It's time for the uncomfortable and hard conversations kids. If someone you know or are connected to promotes racism what would you do? Would you actively engage and educate? Or would you just hide and hope it all goes away? Well people, it is not going away and Madison Butler will not have any of it. Madison on LinkedIn aka Corporate Unicorn on Twitter speaks her mind and attracts racists on LinkedIn like a tiki torch magnet. This podcast segment hammers away on one burning question... How do we stop hiring racists? As always, you're favorite podcast is powered by NEXXT. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides comprehensive website accessibility testing with personalized recommendations to enhance usability for people with a variety of disabilities or situational limitations. INTRO (24s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel Cheeseman (29s): Get a little Texas spicy, a little heat coming at you folks. Chad (29s): This is, this is going to get hot people. This is going to get hot today, we have Madison Butler. Madison, do you care if I call you Maddie? I see that on your profile. Madison Butler (-): Yeah. Joel Cheeseman (43s): Cool. So Maddie's cool. So tell us a little bit about you and then we'll dive into a little bit deeper about what this podcast is about, and then we'll just roll with some discussion. Madison Butler (51s): For sure. So I think most people would know me as the Blue Haired Recruiter, which I have since kind of changed my branding to just the Blue Haired Unicorn Recovering Recruiter, as I am no longer a full time recruiter, but I do a lot of work on the consulting side with culture and BI and how to create environments that are really healthy and safer, you know, your employees and your organization, but something that is also, you can continue to build on and create rather than like a one time workshop that everyone that comes out and then you never talk about it again until the next year. Chad (1m 23s): Gotcha. So we've obviously experienced a lot, not just with COVID obviously within the last, you know, six plus months. Chad (2m 1s): The murder of George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, I mean the list goes on and on and on. And it seems like the, the conversation, the discussion has been elevated, which is which I personally believe, I hate that it had to happen because of murders, but I'm glad that it did happen from the standpoint of, we get to have this conversation at an elevated level where it should have been happening for many years. And you have been incredibly vocal in calling people out around racist comments and, and saying, Hey, we need to stop hiring racists. So. Joel Cheeseman (-): Shine a light. Chad (2m 24s): How did you get into this? What made you do this? What made you get up on the stump and say, fuck, this, this shit can't happen anymore, I'm pointing at you and we're going to have the discussion, whether you like it or not? Joel Cheeseman (2m 24s): Back story. Madison Butler (2m 25s): Well, so full transparency, I'm black, like navigating corporate America has been really interesting to me to see who has been able to be successful despite having like a really insufferable character. And I think a lot of times people are shrugged aside if they're really good at their job. Like if you are hitting your quota, you earn the business a lot of money no one cares. Madison Butler (2m 59s): And so we lived in this time for so long where it was scarier to call someone out for being a racist than it was to actually be a racist. And for me, that narrative is backwards, like you should be fearful enough to know that you can't say those things at work, or you can't say those things online because you should be held accountable for the things that you say that are hate towards other people. Instead we've made it so the victim of the abuse is the person who is now fearful. They're feel fearful for bringing up, you know, this person has harmed me, this person has traumatized me and instead they just keep it to themselves and like swallow that trauma because we've conditioned racist to feel comfortable in our workspace. Joel Cheeseman (3m 33s): Was there a moment where you sort of said, if not now, when, if not me, who and you made that decision to, to be sort of the light that shines on these folks? I mean, because it's dangerous for you as well, right? I mean, like you put yourself at whether it's verbal risk or I don't know physical, but like there's a risk in doing that. Was that ever a question for you? Madison Butler (3m 55s): So I've kind of always been like this I'm very much. My parents really raised me to like, say exactly what I'm feeling and to stand up for the things I really believe are right. And there's definitely, I've gotten lots of death threats, LinkedIn and on Twitter. And I think that's just, what's part of being... Chad (4m 12s): On LinkedIn people. Joel Cheeseman (4m 14s): And did you report it? What happened? Madison Butler (4m 16s): Yeah. And so I did report it. LinkedIn is pretty quick, usually about like violence and taking it down Twitter, not as great. Twitter is kind of a cesspool sometimes as we know. But I think for me, it wasn't a matter of like, if not who, then it was just like, I believe so deeply in this. And I see the trauma that's created in workspaces. And at the end of the day, like you may clock out at 5:00 PM, but like everything that happened to you all day goes, home with you. Madison Butler (4m 49s): And so I think we are really hindering the ability for marginalized communities to be successful because you can't be successful if you're spending your whole day trying to be someone else in order to fit in at your company. Chad (4m 59s): Yeah. Amen. So I was doing some homework before the show and noticed that your Twitter account was sort of private and Chad alerted me that it hasn't always been that way. Was there a moment where you went to a private account or were there, was it from threats or what, what's the story on that? Madison Butler (5m 15s): I went private basically because sometimes your mentions get really exhausting when it's just like people dropping me N-bomb repeatedly. And so I do it every once in a while where I'll go private for a couple of weeks to like save myself the sanity and I'll go back public when I feel like maybe those people have forgotten about me and moved on to their next adventure, which happens. I'm usually, you know, people really fixate on me for like a couple of weeks and then they go away. Madison Butler (5m 45s): And that's not new to me, so I'll just make it private for a little bit. And then come back when I feel like the world has died down a bit. Joel Cheeseman (-): Gotcha. Chad (5m 51s): Administration that we've been in, unfortunately for the last almost four years, it seems like, you know, th the racists have been given the license to come out of their fucking holes. Is that just me as a white dude that I'm recognizing this more? Or is this something that you recognize as well? Madison Butler (6m 10s): Yeah, I mean, I guess I just feel like as of late, racists have felt really emboldened to believe that their views are normal. Chad (6m 17s): Right. Madison Butler (6m 18s): And that they're, and that it's a difference in political views, not a difference in morals and that's completely false because although I am not a Republican, I am very left leaning and liberal. I don't think, that like, racism and politics are correlated. Like, I don't think they're the same thing. Now, when we talk about this current political climate. Yes. I think there's a lot of those things that are tied, but for whatever reason, when you talk about racism, somehow people always end up on Trump and I'm like, why? Madison Butler (6m 51s): I didn't say anything about Trump. I didn't say anything about politics. Like, I didn't say like which way I went. And so for whatever reason, this political climate has allowed people to feel a little bit more involved in. I mean, my partner is a black woman and she would go into the gas station. We live in like a very conservative Lake town. And like, just like without question, like some dude in a truck called him the N-bomb, like, didn't even think twice about it. And that just like blows my mind. Like, cause I don't know what he stood to gain from that. And I don't know why he felt comfortable with saying that in a parking lot full of people, but that parking lot full of people didn't say anything. Madison Butler (7m 25s): So it's like, we've made it normal. Chad (7m 26s): And that was a person who didn't know you. I, but one of the concerns that I've had, I mean, I've lived, I've worked remote since 20, you know, 2012. But one of the concerns that I have is that's happening or at least some of those sentiments are actually happening in the workplace, whether it's a remote workplace or the actual physical workplace, that license is coming out there. Have, have you seen that? And, and I mean, one of the reasons why I'm asking is because you're, I think primary mechanism to see these racists actually come at you is on LinkedIn. Chad (8m 10s): It's not Twitter. It's not Facebook. It's actually LinkedIn a professional network. Madison Butler (8m 11s): Yup. Then, I mean, that's the crazy thing to me. And like, it's funny because people are always like, Oh my God, you're doxing these people. But like one that's not what doxing is. Doxing is like me, like researching your life and finding out things that I wouldn't have found out otherwise. However, what you choose to say publicly on a public platform that is linked to your employer, sounds like a personal problem, sounds like a lack of judgment, sounds like your inability to think that there is accountability in the world. So for me, it's like always mind blowing that people are so comfortable on LinkedIn. And I mean, it's not just racism. Madison Butler (8m 42s): Like last week I posted a post about women, not, you know, I don't, you don't, or you're not owed my response to a DM to a message to a comment. I recently had someone who commented on my post and I was like, Hey, DM, I need to talk to you. And I'm like, no, I'm good. And he's been like, messaging me, like blowing me up ever since. And so when I tell you like every predatory man on LinkedIn came out of the woodwork, they explain why women owe them smiles and femininity and conversation. I was just like, mind blown. Like, y'all say this in public. Like, I can't imagine what you're like in private. Joel Cheeseman (9m 13s): So I'm curious in regards to LinkedIn, and one of the questions I had was I think it was in June of this year, the company had, I guess, a town hall where people could comment anonymously and put input. Joel Cheeseman (9m 60s): And it went horribly wrong, which I don't think the CEO or a lot of the people thought that it would. And there were racist comments that were, that were anonymous, later the CEO apologized. I'm assuming you know about this story. I'm guessing it didn't surprise you, even though you're getting comments on LinkedIn, the fact that there are people working at LinkedIn that sort of share these, these attitudes. Did you have any particular feelings when you read about that? Did you want to boycott LinkedIn at any point? Madison Butler (9m 59s): No. And it's interesting. Cause so LinkedIn added me to their like amplify black voices page. Chad (10m 6s): Cause you have how many followers on LinkedIn? Madison Butler (10m 9s): I'm like 40,000 almost. Chad (10m 12s): OK. Madison Butler (10m 12s): But it's like, they added me to this list. But like when you look at the list, a lot of the people they added are like, the way the corporate world wants black people to look and act, so a lot of people who were less loud than me. But when you look at the pictures, it's a lot of people who don't have natural hair or all of these other things. And it's like, LinkedIn, what are you doing? And LinkedIn has a ton of its own problems where like, they just won't get rid of racists. Like it takes forever to have someone band for like constantly harassing you. Madison Butler (10m 45s): And that's what, I don't understand, that there's supposed to be a professional platform. So it really shouldn't be take a whole lot of harassment for you to be like, Oh, they're not really gaining anything professionally here. But instead LinkedIn spent a lot of time, banning activists who speak out about racism and black lives, they do a lot of time, doing that. And it's like, that is contradictory to what you're saying, because you're swearing that you believe in black lives matter. But now you are banning marginalized folks from your platform, which will then hinder their ability to find a job. Joel Cheeseman (11m 12s): Are you ever critical of LinkedIn on LinkedIn? Madison Butler (11m 18s): I actually a couple of weeks ago, they so like the LinkedIn page posted a question and it was like, how can we start hard conversations about race? And so I made a post and was like, Hey, LinkedIn let me help you, maybe the first thing you should do is stop like shadow banning black voices. Because although you amplified black voices, you make sure that they stay out of people's feeds. Joel Cheeseman (-): Sure that went over well. Madison Butler (11m 37s): And I mean, there was actually someone who, another black woman who made a post pretty similar to mine and a couple of weeks ago kind of showing the same topic and the CEO responded like, Oh no, that's not happening. So again, instead of like taking ownership for like, Oh, maybe our algorithms are biased, which is a thing, like if you don't have the right team working on your product, your algorithms are going to be biased. They're probably gonna be biased because that's how the human mind works. So instead of taking any ownership it's like that's not happening no. Chad (12m 6s): It's interesting because you have individuals in it. And before we started, you said that, look, I don't go in, I don't go looking for these people they find me. So I'm not doing a research and I'm not trying to tag people to start, you know, harassing them on LinkedIn. They actually find me. And that's where the hate starts spewing. How does, how does that happen just because you have so many followers and those people have like second connection links? Madison Butler (12m 35s): I don't, and that's the weirdest thing to me is so often the hateful comments I get are third connections so I don't know how they found me. Chad (13m 11s): Okay, but that being said, what you do, and I don't know if this is cathartic or what it is. You have to explain it to me. You have a ton of followers on LinkedIn, you really don't have that big of a group on Twitter, but yet you take the, you screenshot some of the stupidity that's happening in the racist comments and those types of things on LinkedIn. And then you put it on Twitter. So why, why did you start doing that? Was it to grow a following? Was it because it was cathartic? Why did you start doing that? Madison Butler (13m 20s): No, mostly cause I didn't want to do it on LinkedIn, I have a really scheduled on how I post on LinkedIn, how I post content, so I'm not one of those people who posts content more than once a day. Twitter is the only place where I can like go and post multiple times and like have conversation. I won't do that on LinkedIn. I won't do that on Facebook and I won't do it on Instagram. So it's the only platform that I feel like it's normal to post more than once in a day. I keep a small following because it's literally people who know me, or close enough to real life, I try to keep it close enough to the real world. I feel like on LinkedIn I am very accessible to a bunch of people I don't know. NEXXT (13m 52s): We'll get back to the interview in a minute. But first we have a question for Andy Katz, COO of Nexxt. Andy, if a company wants to actually come to Nexxt and utilize your database and target texting candidates. I mean, how does that actually work? Right? So we have the software to provide it two different ways. If an employer has their own database of opted in text messages, whether it's through their ATS, we can text on their behalf or we have over eight and a half million users that have opted into our text messaging at this point. NEXXT (14m 24s): So we can use our own database. We could dissect it by obviously by geography, by function, any which way and sometimes we'll even parse the resumes of the opted in people to target certifications. So we really can dive really deep if they want to hone in on, you know, just give me the best hundred candidates that I want to text message with and have a conversation back and forth with, versus going and saying, I need 30,000 retail people across country. NEXXT (15m 3s): And that's more of a, you know, yes, no text messaging back and apply. For more information, go to hiring.nexxt.com. Remember that Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X hiring.nexxt.com. Joel Cheeseman (15m 16s): Wanted to talk about solutions a little bit. Two that come to mind, one is, you know, Chad and I have interviewed a company that will basically, you know, search employees Twitter accounts, social media accounts, and sort of with their AI layover will say, Hey, this is a racist comment. This is a sexist comment. Or we've indicated this as a certain type of comment. So then employer's perspective and current can say like, we're not going to hire this person because of their activity. The other thing I would bring up is AI and every AI company that, that Chad and I talked to all talk about how AI is the you know, the pan of the panacea of unbiased recruiting. Joel Cheeseman (15m 56s): So I'm curious about your opinion on, on solutions. Is technology going to help solutes solve this? Is there a deeper solution that we should be looking at or is it hopeless? Madison Butler (16m 46s): Oh, God, I definitely don't want the solution, is technology, I think too often we try to use technology to solve human problems. That's why so many AI companies got into the BI world and then just kind of like messed it up because they thought they could call humans, with like algorithms. And so, you know, you think about the hiring process and cool maybe you did get some diverse candidates into your pipeline or even got them hired. But if you didn't create a space that was ready for them, you didn't do them any good. You're actually just doing harm. And so I kind of feel the same way about this, like the AI isn't right, then you probably end up with, again, a biased programming system that isn't going to work for everyone. I think a lot of the solution relies on education, but also really as employers being upfront about your values, I mean, as an employer myself, and when I'm interviewing people, one of the things I'm telling them is like, we believe that black lives matter. We believe in the LGBTQ rights. Like these are the things that I talk about in the interview process, because I want people to know that, like this isn't, if this isn't for you, but it's not for you. And I owe them that, I owe them my values and they can make the decision on if they're their values as well. And I hope that most humans will want to work at companies that emulate their own values. Chad (17m 21s): Should that be part of the actual interview process? Do you believe for pretty much just, just widespread America, do you believe black lives matter? I mean, that's an easy question, but the answer on the other side, that could be incredibly telling? Madison Butler (17m 46s): Of course it is, and I would like love to flip that around as well. Like when we're interviewing as candidates, we should be able to ask companies like, okay, you said black lives matter, but what did you do to back that up? Chad (-): Yes Madison Butler (17m 50s): Or did you, or was it a PR push, like was it just an Instagram post? And so I think there are lots of hard conversations that need to be happening in the interview process that typically aren't happening in the interview process because people are so bad at interviewing and making interviews, human. And so for me, that's a lot of what I do is I really get to know people and I let them get to know me. I let them get to know my company and where we stand on everything. And then when people are hired, we are continuously doing education and the continuing conversations. It's not a workshop that we do once a year. And then we talk about it again in a year, it's a constant conversation. Madison Butler (18m 20s): And it has to be because you can't allow these things to slip through the cracks because that's when people then get comfortable, in their bigotry and their biases and their hatred. Chad (18m 29s): Well, and that's coming out on different platforms as well. We, we talked about, I think it was last week, this, this, this want to be a Glassdoor platform called Cootbie where they're trying, they're trying to bring out all the hate, right in. And you were subject to part of that. I actually called the, whatever they call them CEO, the guy, Joel Cheeseman (-): The dude. Chad (18m 55s): Who the fuck knows? Anyway, I talked to him and the person who was actually commenting about you had never gone through the candidate experience and that whole site was predicated on rate your candidate experience. Right. So it seems like, it seems like that was a hit job. Number one, then number two, just this week, I don't know her. Her name is it's like Carlin, like Karl Marx, Karlin, Borisanko that's good. Karlin Boresanko she did a 35 minute like hit job where she's going through LinkedIn and tweets in a lot of what she's going through is, I mean, it's all opinion-based stuff, but she's obviously a Trumper and she wants to try to knock you down. Chad (19m 41s): There is a lot of hit jobs going on and I'm sure there are many more. How are you dealing with all this bullshit. Madison Butler (19m 49s): By napping a lot and not reading my comment section. Applause (-): Clapping and cheers. Chad (19m 57s): Don't read those fucking comments. Fuck them. Madison Butler (19m 60s): No, not reading the comments is a hundred percent self care, but I think that comes with, and I've learned it multiple times now, like being in the spotlight comes with people who don't agree with the things you say, but on the flip side, it's really easy to not say racist stuff to me. Like it's so easy. No one is forcing you to do that. I have a disclaimer, if you say racist stuff, man, I'm gonna tweet about it. It's not a secret. I told you not to do it. You did it anyway. I don't know. The fact that someone took the time out of their lives to make a 36 minute video to me is like, wild. Madison Butler (20m 30s): I mean, she used a very good picture of me. I'm very excited. I looked great in that photo. So I appreciate that. But I dunno, I think it just comes with the territory of like being really strong in your foundation and your morals and the things that you believe in are going to be the people who also are strong and whatever their morals are and whatever it is. And so we're in a world where people have lots of opinions, but we're also in a world where like, opinions can be wrong, like your opinion on racism and not believing black lives matter. I'm going to tell you your opinion is wrong. Like if I have to argue with you about why I'm at it, like I'm not going to do it. Madison Butler (21m 1s): I'm going to tell you you're wrong. I shouldn't have to educate you on the value of black lives or the value of any lives. It shouldn't be an argument and it shouldn't, and it shouldn't be a political one, for sure. Joel Cheeseman (21m 11s): Can I just, so I want to pivot back to your YouTube video because Chad and I were so jealous, we've been trying for 20 years to piss someone off so much that they make a 35 minute video about us. And the fact that you did it really makes us jealous so I just, I just want to put that out there for a second. My last question is Torrin Ellis, who you probably know a fantastic voice in our industry. Chad and I sat down with him a year or so ago. And we asked him a simple question, which was essentially what can two middle aged white guys do to help the cause? Joel Cheeseman (21m 45s): And I'm going to ask you the same question. What can Chad and I do to help move, move things forward? Madison Butler (21m 52s): Actually, I had a conversation last night. And so I think, you know, for me, the biggest thing about being an Ally is the ability to pull up. It's not performative. It's not the white cause not for shares. It's like really meaning it. And so I have a really great white Ally here in town, Adam. And so a perfect example of Adam's Allyship is like, when people like this are attacking me, he's always like, can you take this off of her posts? I'm happy to hop on a call with you. Let's talk about it. But it's for me, the act of believing us, as black people so often I have to show up in their seats. I have to explain myself 92 million times before I even get, you know, an ounce of credibility. Madison Butler (22m 27s): For example, I posted about driving through son downtown's last week. And like the whole world was like, Oh no, you're not, you're paranoid. I'm like Google is free. Like you can Google it and see this is like a real thing, I'm not making it up, but okay. And so for me, the most important thing from an ally is like normalizing, just believing people when they talk about their lived experiences. And it's not about see something, say something, it's about, say something regardless. It's about normalizing the experiences that black people and marginalized folks go through on a daily basis and them not being questioned about it. That we just believe victims over abusers. Chad (22m 60s): How do we change the workplace? Because this is happening everywhere. As we'd said that they're coming out of their holes, how do we overall change the workplace? These hard conversations need to happen. There's no question, but we have to have it in a civil manner. How do we do that? And how do we not? How do we stop hiring racists? Madison Butler (23m 23s): Part of that is writing policies that allow you to create the environment that you need at your organization. And so that means no tolerance policies. That means writing policies that are inclusive. So when you're writing your paternity or maternity policy, not just using men and women or husband and wife, because you immediately exclude people and when you exclude people in your policies, it allows other people feel like they can exclude them in the corporate setting as well. And so again, I write no tolerance policies. I have no room for hate. Madison Butler (23m 53s): You're not going to be homophobic, racist, transphobic here. I don't care how good you are at your job. I can find someone else who's also good at their job and a good person. Those are things that are super important to me. And again, it's just having these hard conversations, even when it makes us uncomfortable, we have to be willing to get uncomfortable and get our feelings hurt and just feel ih with conversations, it comes with the territory. All of this is a learning process. It's all a journey. It is all a journey that involves a shit ton of self awareness. And as we all know, self-awareness can feel gross and hard and icky. Madison Butler (24m 25s): And you have to be comfortable with that because that is the only way we can create change. So when we start making those changes within our own selves. Applause (-): Claps and cheers. Joel Cheeseman (24m 32s): Love it. Love it. Madison, thank you for sitting down with us. We appreciate it for those that want to know more about you or connect, where would you send them? Madison Butler (24m 41s): I'm on LinkedIn, under Madison Butler and I'm on Twitter as the Corporate Recruiter, but it's spelled funny, but you should still be able to find @corprteUnicorn. Sorry. I messed up my Twitter handle so often. Joel Cheeseman (-): Awesome! And with that Chad! We out. Chad (-): We out. OUTRO (25m 20s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

While the likes of Facebook, Amazon, Google and Apple are on trial for anticompetitive behavior, maybe Indeed should be thrown in the mix too. Indeed rumors of cutting programmatic competition off at the knees Naughty-naughty, much like Civvl, "the Uber of eviction teams." Classy. Outmatch and Launchpad provide hope and the Great People Migration where NYC experiences a 23% drop Hello suburban home appreciation! And much more on this Sovren, JobAdx, and Jobvite powered production. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. INTRO (16s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (23s): A citric survey says two thirds of employees believe that by 2035 workers with microchips and planted in their bodies will have an unfair advantage in the labor market. So yeah, the welcoming of the end of days is now here. This is the Chad and Cheese podcast, everybody. I'm your cohost "Robo" Joel. Chad (44s): And I'm Chad "timeout" Sowash. Joel (47s): And this week we have migrating people, Patagonia and pushups, Oh, and Indeed rumors. Chad (-): Yes Joel (57s): We'll be right back. Sovren (1m 23s): Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry, the more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com, that's SOVREN.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad (1m 23s): Did you watch the Emmys? Joel (1m 27s): I watched some of it. I want to say football may have interrupt in may, although I did see quite a few of the Schitt's Creek monopoly of awards in the first hour or so. Chad (1m 40s): Yeah. Joel (1m 40s): I assume that's what you want to talk about. Chad (1m 44s): That and the experience overall, I mean seriously, who needs to get all those people into one room when you could have an experience like they had? I mean, Jimmy Kimmel, some of his shit fell flat, but it would have fell flat anyway. But it was really cool, they were going back and forth to all these different parties that they were having. And it just, it seemed more natural, more organic and it was more fun. I liked it, but yeah, Schitt's Creek won best comedy series, supporting actress, supporting actor, writing lead actress, lead actor, directing. Chad (2m 19s): If you haven't seen Schitt's Creek go to Netflix right now. Add it right now, very uncomfortable, especially at first, but Oh my God, it's amazing! Joel (2m 28s): I do recall seeing, well, you know, the, the Zoomification, I guess, of the nominees and how they're shown on the screen was fun. I seem to remember one that was topless sort of walking around the house. One was in their pajamas. So there's a certain level level of artistic freedom. I guess, that these folks can takem that they can't take in a ballroom, you know, with their Prada or whatever, whatever name, brand label you want to have when you're dressed up and looking at your best. Chad (2m 58s): Yeah, we'll think of, think of the green, the green kind of like footprint that you're, you're leaving instead of carbon footprint that you would be, right? All the people that had to fly in more traffic, all this, it just it's overall, it was more fun experience I thought. And who the fuck needs a red carpet anyway? I mean, come on. Joel (3m 21s): Well, entertainment television for sure does cause they need a red carpet and interviews and people looking their best. Chad (3m 27s): Fuck them. Joel (3m 27s): And I know for one, my wife really enjoys watching that part of the program. So I don't think the Zoomafication of Emmy's or any Oscar award shows is going to be a normal thing once we get out of this Chad (3m 40s): Shout outs Joel (3m 40s): Shout outs. Chad (3m 43s): Okay. My first Shout Out goes to our Aussie friend, Andrea Kirby. She shared a meme that said American needs guns to defend themselves. And then the actual meme showed a Melbourne Australian man who fought off a carjacker with a Nescafe blend 43 jars. I'm sorry. I'm assuming that 43 ounce was a 43 ounce bottle. I don't know, but Lauren Sharp, piped in. Chad (4m 14s): She piled on it was fucking crazy Aussies. I, I love them. Joel (4m 17s): Aussies are fun. Sort of a somber Shout Out RBG Supreme court justice Ginsburg. Yes. Everyone knows passed away this week. Fortunately, Congress was able to, you know, honor her dying wish and not vote for a new Supreme Court Justice until the election is over anyway. Chad (4m 36s): Not going into that one. Fuck. Joel (4m 36s): Yeah, insensitivity, but obviously Justice Ginsburg women can have mortgages and bank accounts and all kinds of stuff because of some of the initiatives that she championed. So we would, we would be amiss to not give RBG a Shout Out on the show. Chad (4m 58s): And a lot of love. I tell you, having two daughters, obviously you having a daughter too. I mean, we have strong wives that they can look up to, but she is also somebody just from a historic standpoint that you know, our daughters can look up to and that those are the things that mean a lot to me. Joel (5m 19s): Yeah. And prove that you can get stuff done without yelling and beating your chest and clubbing things like she did it with class grace and intelligence. And that was cool. Chad (5m 30s): Yeah, her brain. She out-brained mother fuckers. Somebody who probably outbrain's us all, Jodi Brandstetter, she's the author of the book Hire by Design. She's not far from us. She's over in Loveland, Ohio. She loves the podcast and Kipp Birtwistle, I bet he got beat up at school with that name director of TA at Caliber Collision, he is such a big fan of the show, he has most of his TA managers listening and I'm, I'm asking most? Chad (6m 3s): Mandatory listening Kipp, a hundred percent. Come on, man. Joel (6m 7s): And what was that last name again? Chad (6m 8s): Birtwistle Joel (6m 8s): Kerfluffle okay. Alright. Chad (6m 12s): Kipp Kerfluffle. Joel (6m 12s): Only Cheeseman is worse, everybody only Cheeseman is worse. Shout Out to "immunity discrimination." This is something that I just heard this week, but apparently there's a story around that. Employers will start practicing immunity discrimination, meaning if you don't have the vaccine, if you're not immune to COVID, you're gonna have a hard time in the workplace. So it's first time I've heard it. Joel (6m 43s): It won't be the last Shout Out to quote "immunity discrimination." Chad (6m 47s): It's it's another one of those topics that people are using to Gaslight every fucking thing else that's out there. It's like we have this overabundance of bullshit topics that are just coming out, just all over the place. And this is one of those. Joel (7m 0s): Dammit. We're going to talk about it. Chad (7m 2s): Yeah. Shout Out to Jason Banks, he knows we love lists. So he created his own list on LinkedIn with a Thursday top four podcast for staffing recruiting, talent and sales. And obviously he listed Chad and Cheese. Joel (7m 19s): Of course, of course. Shout Out to Jennifer Ravalli. Jennifer is now VP of marketing at PandoLogic, a sponsor of the show and was formerly at ICMs. We're talking 15 years experience PandoLogic is better off and, and poaching is always fun, so I'm not sure that happened, but Hey, a nice win for, for our folks at Pando and Jennifer. Good luck that, that Chad (7m 44s): It was a big win. A big Shout Out to David Falwell absolutely love the podcast and always hears great reviews. I like reviews. So that being said, do what David just talked about, go give us a review about, on the podcast, on whatever podcast platform you use. And give us some real feedback none of that mamby, pamby, jumbo, bullshit that you see on other podcasts "Oh, I love it so much." Yeah. Give us real feedback. If we don't get a five star review, that's fine. Chad (8m 15s): We're okay with that. That just means that we're ruffling feathers and that's, Joel (8m 20s): It is what it is. A Shout Out to two guys at paradox that agreed to sit down with us and talk chat bots, AI football. What else do we talk about? All kinds of good stuff. Josh Zywien, Adam Godson. If you haven't listened to the interview with Paradox, go check that out in our archives. It's well worth your while. Yeah. Chad (8m 41s): I still think the chat bot versus conversational AI narrative is a bunch of marketing bullshit. Joel (8m 47s): It's all marketing bullshit Chad. Shout Out to the Recruitment Flex podcast, duo out of Canada, Serge Boudreau and Shelley Billinghurst. I sat down with him this week to talk about poach, podcasting, Canada, all kinds of good stuff. So Shout Out to them. Shout Out to loxo.co company that I've never heard of. Tim Sackett loves them apparently cause he's endorsing the company on the homepage Chad (9m 17s): Means nothing, means nothing. Joel (9m 17s): But anyway, if you, if you scroll down, if you scroll down to their navigation, the dropdown menu for their solutions, they have actually trademarked everything from like AI to chat bots, to sourcing to everything. So wow. Who knew that you could trademark AI? Loxo did and suck it everybody else so you gotta pay them, pay them the fee if you want to use the AI, I'm doing this very sarcastically. Chad (8m 46s): I call bullshit. Joel (9m 48s): And last but not least for me, I guess in Shout Outs, Cleveland Indians, everybody, come on are you a baseball fan? This week, three run homer, a walk off home run in the 10th inning against the White Sox to put the Indians into the playoffs, starting in October, I can't be more excited. You know, about anything than that. So Cleveland Indians Chad (10m 12s): Is Chief Wahoo now officially off all the official garb? Joel (10m 16s): He is off all the officially licensed products. You can certainly still buy the Chief online, probably anywhere, certainly stores and vendors around the stadium. I'm sure still have him. Many people haven't seen the 1950s or so version of Chief Wahoo, which is way more ... Chad (10m 36s): Racist. Joel (10m 38s): ... disgusting. So I think even the 1950s, Chief Wahoo is available. So yeah, you could still get him, but not, not officially licensed. So hats off to the organization for doing that. My guess is they won't be the Indians for much longer. My vote is for the Spiders, which was their original name back in 1903 or something, Chad (10m 60s): Flash back. Events. Joel (10m 60s): Events. Chad (11m 3s): Alright, so I've got a couple to throw out here. I've got the HR hackathon, the HR tech investor panel, which I'm going to be leading moderating or whatever the hell you want to call it on October 7th at 11:00 AM. Eastern time panelists on this one, you're going to love it. Got Mike Willcheck. Remember that guy, Chief Strategy Officer over at ISIMs, Peter Baylew Hungary's most important HR tech angel and startup investor. Joel (11m 34s): Is that the country Hungary? Chad (11m 34s): Yes. I wonder if he gave that to himself and Miguel Encarnacion the Managing Partner at Unifier Ventures. So we'll be doing that on October 7th. Look for the registration link on the socials. And then last but not least for me, October 27th, 2:00 PM kids, we have a friendly disclosure part, two topic on this one is "Remote Workers Deserve Less." Chad (12m 5s): This is where Jim Stroud and myself will be arguing the topic pretty much the Facebook topic and other companies are doing it now where they're docking employees pay and calling it a cost of living adjustment, when they move out of Silicon Valley, for example. We wrapped up the recording for friendly disclosure part one this week, where we talked about diversity quotas or what I like to call diversity goals. Jim and I did some arguing. He argued against diversity goals. I argued for them. Chad (12m 36s): We disagreed, but at the end of the day, kids, walked away, friends. Joel (12m 40s): Who came out the bloodier of the two in that one? Chad (12m 42s): You have to watch it because there was some blood and there was some shade that was thrown big time. The recording is available right now. Like I said, just hop on my socials, check it out again. I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, we had at this point, like close to 200 attendees, walked out with a 4.2 out of five star rating, which I think is good. Because again, we ruffled some feathers and people didn't agree with us, which is awesome. Chad (13m 13s): But check us out, go to again, my socials on Twitter, just search for Chad. So I'm the only one there or LinkedIn and you'll find it. Joel (13m 23s): So you're doing another one. Will this be an ongoing series of like Jim versus Chad? Is this something we should expect going into 2021 or what's going on? Chad (13m 32s): Well, I see this almost like as a TV production. That was the pilot and Circa ordered three. Okay. So, so we, we have three that are actually set up and Circa ordered three of those. They got some, some great feedback from it awesome interaction, and a lot of people said that they couldn't wait for round two. So you never know. I mean, again, it's like a TV series if they keep ordering or if somebody else wants to outbid and order them then awesome let's do it. Joel (14m 4s): Who doesn't love a good fight, I say? Topics. Chad (14m 7s): Okay. So got some rumors. Joel (14m 7s): got some new rumors? Chad (14m 10s): Got some rumors. So I've got to say first and foremost, I have reached out to a number of sources to confirm this rumor or this bevy of rumors. I have a few that have confirmed, but not all, so right now. I still want to keep this labeled as a rumor, but it's not unlike Indeed. So, so here it is in the UK, we're hearing that Indeed is rolling out restrictions for any company using one click apply. Those restrictions are that you must use Indeed IQ for distribution, thus cutting off programmatic competitor platforms. Chad (14m 48s): Got a quote from one of my sources and this was almost every single one of my sources said this. Said, "I wouldn't be at all surprised if they, (Indeed) did this. This is the easiest way for Indeed to show that Indeed IQ performs better than other programmatic platforms. Indeed is already offering it, Indeed IQ for free." And this is taking it to another level. I see this damaging for Indeed's reputation, quite frankly, as it might be a little too heavy handed. Chad (15m 23s): And my question, you know, when has Indeed ever given a single fuck about looking heavy handed? Joel (15m 31s): It's the Indeed way. What do you mean give a shit? Chad (15m 35s): It's a thing, you know, it's a thing. So adding to the rumor also Indeed will shut down distribution for jobs going to Glass Door, unless you're using Indeed IQ. Again, you know, we're, we're only hearing rumblings of this in the UK, but it's like, it just keeps piling on. Joel (15m 53s): Yeah. If you can't beat them, choke them to death, I guess. So this one came in to me and we thought we'd tag it onto the, the rumor segment here of Undeed. So this is a quote from a source that I have who, who asked to remain nameless. Indeed as is screwing people who paid for job postings on Glass Door. If they had an annual contract on Glass Door, they are not allowing customers to use that money on Indeed, so there is no way to use the remaining contract for the postings. There is no way to enter jobs on Glass Door so Indeed isn't fulfilling their agreement. Joel (16m 29s): Basically, if you're hoping that just cause they're, you know, sister companies that they're going to let you use that budget on Indeed stuff. Well, you should probably think again, you're going to have to write another check It sounds like again, rumors, everybody rumors. We're happy to have Indeed on the show whenever you want to come clarify, dispute a whatever they want. Indeed, come on, bring it. Chad (16m 55s): So I had a couple of people actually, again, texting back and forth, ask when do we think they'll start keeping that 15% commission and turn into an ad agency. And we've talked about this, in iterations of the show and it's, I don't see how it's ever off the table, because if you think Monster did it, Career Builder did it. And all the big names do this when they feel they have enough power because they are the number one in the industry. Joel (17m 26s): Yeah. And what about when they start rolling that into some staffing hybrid thingy? I mean it's you know, it's smart. I guess if you can do it, people love these kind of monopolies, Google sort of given them the red light to fuck everyone over cause they have Google for Jobs, I guess. Chad (17m 45s): Say yeah, well that's on the job side. So yeah again, rumors, a lot of stuff we're hearing again, the Indeeds they're flirting with RPO. I mean, there's just so much, none of this would surprise anyone. And if Indeed IQ does start clamping down on distribution for one click and then also a four for Glass Door, I mean, those, those are two positions they easily hold power on. They could do that in a heartbeat. Joel (18m 16s): Yup, love those moats everybody. By the way, if any listeners out there can confirm or tell us a little bit more about what's going on, there would certainly love to know if, if you can renew Glassdoor contracts or if those are totally going to be spun into just Indeed contracts going into next year. So yeah, if you know anything, folks hit us up at chadcheese.com today. Chad (18m 37s): So Outmatch in Launchpad, really heard of them both, but they just don't seem like big enough fish to have acquisitions, but they did. Joel (18m 47s): I agree Outmatch was a little odd and you know, it doesn't look like, I can't see any evidence that launchpad has garnered any kind of real investment money. So this thing may have been bootstrapped, Seed funded. So the price may have been really reasonable or, you know, maybe they got creative around paying for this, but Outmatch for the most part has gotten roughly 8 million in funding, which is nothing super to talk about or write home about. But they have some really great people on staff. Joel (19m 20s): I'm looking at their about page Jason Farrar, who you probably know was at Career Builder forever he's their chief marketing officer. They acquired Wepow a couple years ago, which was a sort of up and coming fairly well known company as well. So they made about five acquisitions in their existence so this is sort of par for the course. To me, this looked like a whole, the whole sort of data plus automation play that we've been seeing, kind of come at the forefront of our industry. People trying to, you know, how do we take data? How do we automate recruiting? They have a video interviewing platform. One of the comments from the press release was that Outmatch is now launching a quote new talent selection platform that ties candidate screening assessments, video interviews, and AI driven, predictive analytics into a single integrated automated workflow platform. Joel (20m 1s): Stop me if you've heard this one before. So maybe it's time to start thinking about Outmatch as a competitor to, you know, job bite ISIMs and some of the others. Chad (20m 15s): Yeah. So first off this is, this is more of like a, a Rubicon technology, private equity play. I think more than anything to try to take a look at the market and obviously look at a competitor that's across the pond. What do you need to grow? Especially when you're talking about big enterprise organizations, you need to have the ability to go across the pond. And if you can get a small competitor, because if you look at what these guys both do, it's pretty much the same thing. Chad (20m 48s): Yeah. There's going to be some nuances here and there, but I just don't see this. I don't see this as an applicant tracking system first and foremost, I see it as more of a candidate, a very, very deep candidate experience layer. But overall, I mean, it seems like they are two small fish in a very large ocean who want to serve their clients better on both sides of the pond. And they have private equity funding. Knowing that, and in least betting against her betting for this market to turn. Chad (21m 22s): And when it does, this is going to be the type of technology that companies are gonna need. Right? Joel (21m 25s): Yeah. Yeah. My bet is there, might've been some sort of a, you know, a little bit of parachuting by Launchpad, obviously the economy has done what it's done. Yeah. That might've been a pretty easy call to make, to say, Hey, there's some synergies here. Why don't we get some employment contracts, write us a check and like let's join forces and take on Europe and North America. Jobvite (21m 48s): Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you, jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "Candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs. Love that." Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite. Learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com. Joel (22m 21s): Jolly good, Cherrio Jobvite. Chad (22m 21s): Bloody well. Joel (22m 21s): Adam Gordon's going to have a shit fit over that. That's a good one though. More British advertising on North America. I love it! So one company that's taking on throwing people out on their asses. Yeah. That got you all got all excited this week. Chad (22m 41s): Who wants a fast growing making money gig? Who wants that? Who wants to make money? Who wants a gig? Everybody does. Right? But the gig economy in this point is launching it's Uber for evicting people. This has to be the worst story, right? Joel (22m 57s): This is an Onion Story right? This is the Onion. Chad (23m 7s): When I read it, I thought there's no way in hell this thing could be true. But here's some of the services that you could provide, you could serve papers. You could assist with standby extraction, which means throwing people out of their homes on their asses. You could assist in foreclosure clean outs. And there's actually a button on the site that says be hired as an eviction crew. Joel (23m 31s): Yup. Yup. Chad (23m 31s): So Helen Dunkin, a Chicago based paralegal who also participates in housing activism saw a Craigslist post for Civvl that's C I V V L. Joel (23m 47s): And it's anything, but by the way. Chad (23m 51s): Yeah, it's definitely not civil, while searching for jobs, the ad alarmed her. Here's a quote: "It's fucked up that there will be struggling working class people who will be drawn to gigs like furniture hauling or process serving for a company like Civvl. Evicting fellow working class, people from their homes. So they themselves can make rent." And apparently the Craigslist ad was posted across the country. Chad (24m 21s): They say there is plenty of work due to the dismal economy. Unemployment is at a record high and many cannot or simply are not paying their rent and mortgages. We are being contracted by frustrated property owners and banks to secure foreclosed, residential properties. This is fucking horrible. Joel (24m 47s): It's horrible but it's also just the reality of where we, where we are right now. Right? Like if it wasn't Civvl workers, which sounds horrible, but it wasn't these cats, it would be someone else throwing people out of their house, serving papers, et cetera. So Chad (25m 4s): Whoever that is, do it, do it. Joel (25m 4s): It's total shit. Yeah. I agree. And it's, it's super scammy feeling too. It's sort of like, it feels almost, it feels like they should, like, if they're saying, Hey, pay us a hundred bucks to learn how to make money by evicting your neighbors. That almost feels like where this should be some sort of a scam that's going on because you gotta think there are people that are employed to serve papers and take shit out of houses, rental properties, et cetera. Joel (25m 35s): But anyway, yeah, the gig economy was bound to happen everywhere. And this is certainly one that it unfortunately has. Also note from the story that the website featured a quote that was attributed to the New York Times. Did you see this? Chad (25m 46s): No. Joel (25m 46s): The quote was "too many people stopped paying rent and mortgages thinking they would not be evicted" end quote. So apparently the journalist Googled that quote, which did not reveal it appearing anywhere, let alone associated to the New York Times. So, they're conveniently sort of making up shit to build reputation around their business when there really isn't any. And obviously the nationwide ad on Craigslist doesn't really smell all that good either. Chad (26m 17s): And they're owned by a company called on-call, which is O N Q A L L. They're the developer behind other believable gig gaps like Lawn Fixer, Clean Quick and Move Quick. So this is something that they do and it looks like just opportunists, but overall man, while Jeff Bezos is making billions more dollars, we're pitting the working class against each other by kicking each other out of our fucking homes. Chad (26m 50s): This is dispicable. Joel (26m 51s): We'll just wait until they launch buyacruiseship.com and emptythatmovietheater.com coming soon to the Uber economy near you. That's actually true did you hear Carnival's selling off cruise ships. Chad (27m 3s): I would never get on a cruise ship, ever. Joel (27m 7s): Would you buy one for you and your posse? Chad (27m 11s): No! Joel (27m 11s): We can do, we can do the podcast live from a Carnival cruise ship. Sponsored by Soveren. If you can't laugh, you'd cry. What's on the next docket for news stories? Chad (27m 28s): People are being evicted and they're obviously moving out, but where are they going? You shared the 2020's migration trends, smaller cities gain ground. Joel (27m 41s): LinkedIn it's not just for automated spam, everybody. They actually produce some images and, and data. So they, they had, I guess, an infographic this week, 2020s migration trends, smaller cities gain ground. So their, their top five sort of biggest gain cities that are in the middle there, in terms of size. You got Jacksonville, you got Salt Lake city, beautiful sunsets there in Salt Lake city, you got Sacramento. All those Californians move to cheaper Sacramento. Joel (28m 13s): You got Milwaukee, come on, is there a better place for beer and cheese and football this time of year? And then five, you got Kansas City Missouri. Now the, the steepest declines, you could probably name those cities. You got New York at number one, seeing a 23% decrease in terms of population. That's, that's pretty, that's pretty hard. A number two San Francisco Bay area. They're at 21% decreased Seattle, number three at 10% Boston and Portland, right around 9%. Joel (28m 43s): They're at the fourth and fifth worst. So yeah, the trend is, let's get the hell out of this, this, this city where we're all piled on each other and all contagious. And let's go move to, to Jacksonville where there's a beach nearby and there's at least one professional football team. Chad (29m 2s): Well, yeah, no question, less dense population, you know, less infected people. Right? But also, you know, for not for everybody, but for some remote work is in place into 2021 for, I would say for at least till 2021. So why stay? And then if you think about it, moving from New York city to Indianapolis would save a family, just mad, mad cash. So all of that, you know, the opportunity is, is showing itself to be able to do these types of things. Chad (29m 38s): It's like, why stay here if I don't have to work and walk in and take the train in shit, I'm just going to go ahead. We're going to move three hours outside. Or I would be really interested to see as well, you know, what are the trends around rural areas? Not just small cities, but rural areas. Joel (29m 56s): Yeah. Suburbs obviously popular. I have heard stories maybe anecdotally that, you know, a lot of new Yorkers. Yeah. They're moving to places you would think of, but also Vermont and New Hampshire and Maine and places that you don't normally think of as, you know, cities just with suburbs that you can, that you can move to. And the value of this strategy is in Chad's world, you can still make those New York city salaries by living in beautiful Carmel, Indiana. So you got that to look forward to, but yeah, I think it's a trend that's going to, it's going to stay. Joel (30m 28s): I don't think, I don't think work from home is going away. I don't think people wanting to live with a little bit of space and yard and still having the, the, the amenities of, of some, you know, a city with restaurants and entertainment. I mean, nothing matches New York City. So the argument that New York will come back is probably true. But yeah, if you're living in Chicago, like you could live in Milwaukee or Indianapolis at much, much cheaper and not have a real change in your standard of living. Like, yeah. Why wouldn't you do that? Chad (30m 58s): Yeah, but more people would definitely move but they just can't afford to. Now the big question is why can't they afford to? Well, a new study by Rand corporation calculates how much more money people in the United States would earn if economic growth from 1975 to 2018 had been shared equally, instead of dramatically shifted to those with the highest incomes, AKA the shift toward trickle down economics, which gave a lion's share of that money to the already wealthy. Chad (31m 36s): And really what Rand is saying is if we hadn't been duped by trickle down economics, the person who's making $50,000 today would be making $92,000. People are getting screwed out of a lot of money. Not only would the typical mid middle income worker get a boost from 50,000 to 92,000, but the upper middle class working person who's the 75th percentile would have gone from 81,000 to 126. Joel (32m 12s): Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was certainly timely, Chad, that the U.S. News and World Report this week had a story, had a story with the title 10 U S cities with the largest income inequality gaps. So yeah, there's a top 10 list for that too. You want to hear it? Of course you do. Number one. San Juan, Puerto Rico. Yes. It's. It's the US everybody. Number two, Atlanta, Georgia. Number three, Miami. Number four, new Orleans, number five, New York. Yeah, come move to Indianapolis. Number Cleveland, Chad (32m 41s): Cleveland rocks, number seven, Cincinnati that's two Ohio city's kids. Number eight, Dallas, Texas, number nine, Tampa, Florida. And number 10 shy town, AKA Chicago, AKA the Second City. Here's the thing that kills me is that the average income of the top 1% today is now $1.4 million. If we did have more equitable distribution, it would be $630,000. Chad (33m 16s): Who in this country cannot live on $630,000? No one I'll answer that. So I listened to this podcast called Pitchfork Economics. It's has a billionaire name, Nick Hanauer on it. And he understands that, you know, if we don't change direction of our country and start taking care of our people, the pitchforks are going to come out. I mean, seriously, the last numbers I saw is around like 12% of the working population are considered working poor. These are people who are doing a fucking job, yet, they are below the poverty line. Chad (33m 49s): It's fucking ridiculous, man. Joel (33m 49s): That's why I'm running for president and campaigning on UBI of a thousand dollars a month and free X boxes for everybody. Dammit, Pitchfork Economics that's a podcast? Chad (34m 4s): Yes. And we don't, we don't need another white guy running. We have plenty of those. Joel (34m 8s): Sorry. Sorry. By the way, I'll throw in Michael Cohen has a podcast now. Not, not recruiting Batman, but the actual Mike scumbag, Michael Cohen has a podcast. He recently interviewed Scaramucci the Mooch and Rosie O'Donnell recently. So there's two podcast recommendations for you, everybody where we spread the love here in podcastland, Pitchfork Economics, and Michael Cohen. Chad (34m 30s): And you know, who else spreads the love. And they do great job distribution? JobAdX (34m 39s): Doors are reopening and businesses picking back up with the workforce, making its come back and with many rebuilding their teams, are you prepared to engage the wave of returning job seekers? Whether you're struggling to fill high volume, hourly roles or looking for longterm full time talent, your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. JobAdX (35m 18s): Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. JobAdX (35m 54s): Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at JobAdX.com that's JobAdX.com. Joel (36m 9s): Capitalism will save us, Chad, which brings us to our next story. Chad (36m 13s): No it won't. Joel (36m 13s): Patagonia is pulling no punches, talking shit on clothes. What's up with that? Chad (36m 23s): The biggest question is what is your brand stand for? And, and, and we, I mean, as we talk to brands, that's what, you know, especially, you're talk about millennials. I mean, they're, they are going to be the biggest part of the workforce composition. And from research, we know that they're looking for companies that stand for something and Patagonia stands for something. They, they have spoken out against corporate America, buying up federal land to devour natural resources, global warming. Chad (36m 55s): They've given over a hundred million dollars and training to grassroots activists. They, I mean, they've done a ton of shit, but here coming up is, you might know it almost time to vote. Patagonia is closing its California HQ distribution center and all retail stores on November 3rd, providing up to four days of paid time off for employees who volunteer as poll workers and offering access to a photocopier. Chad (37m 29s): What's that? For areas where ID copies are required for mail in ballots, that Trump is going to try to get shoved down the fucking trash can anyway. Joel (37m 38s): Resist it Chad resist it, don't go down the hole. Don't do it. Chad (37m 43s): Sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry. Joel (37m 43s): Yeah. You know, you and I, you and I remember probably famously the, the Michael Jordan quote, "Republicans buy shoes too," which was in answer to sort of like, why aren't you more politically active? Why aren't you speaking up? And, and me personally, I think I speak for you as well, like this trend of not only just corporations, but actually, you know, stars, people that endorse products are having a voice, are taking a stand. Joel (38m 14s): Obviously I think in many ways it's good for business, right? Like Patagonia is going to attract the kinds of folks who, you know, believe in climate change and believe in the things that they promote. And we see companies like Airbnb and, and Allbirds and Tom's Shoes, like this whole sort of do good, whether it's politically or environmentally or Save the Oceans or whatever, like to blend commercial interest with actually saving or doing good for the planet, I think is great. I think that the added angle of this, in terms of giving employees the day off to be politically active, to work the polls, to you know, a canvas for candidates, whatever it is. Chad (38m 54s): Yeah. Joel (38m 54s): I think that's super important. And as much as we bang on capitalism, I think there are instances where capitalism and business is doing the right thing, even more so than, you know, governments or even individual citizens. So I think we both obviously applaud this big time. I hope to see more and more companies doing shit like this. Chad (39m 21s): Well, again, this is, this is more of a fringe activism than we're seeing standard. If this was something, if, if corporate America could police itself, which is never going to fucking happen, then yeah, capitalism would be awesome. And that being said, there was a cat, I don't know that it was capitalism, but something sapped to this chief executive. And he came on to, I think it was just LinkedIn, it might've been all of the socials, but I saw it on LinkedIn. Chad (39m 51s): And he was doing pushups, which, which they call press ups across the pond. Joel (39m 57s): Ageism. Yeah. He was a victim of ageism 60 year old, wanted to prove that he still had the mojo went to LinkedIn video of six, how many pushups? Chad (40m 7s): He said he does 40 to 50 a day runs about 30K a week and said, he's got a good 10 to 15 years left in him. And I think that the big message was look, I was more than likely cut, not because of my age, but also because of my salary. And you see that a lot of times, right? And he said, you know, let's not talk about salary. I just, I've got another 10 to 15 good years left in me. Let's sit down and have a conversation, you know? Chad (40m 38s): And, and he was doing the pushups and he was talking about his physical activity just because there are a lot of guys, his age that are out there that are, that want to want to go off and start gardening. Right? They want to, they want to finish their life in the garden, which is cool. Or they want to be sitting around drinking tea. He's not that guy. And that's how he wants to try to demonstrate. And from my understanding, dude had a ton of interviews and I believe might already have a job. Joel (41m 6s): Yeah. Well, first of all, give this guy an acting contract because he looks like an extra in a guy, Ritchie movie, all, he needs a pair of pair of brass knuckles and a bat and he's like the next bond villain. So give this guy, this grizzled looking old guy, an acting contract, but yeah, doing pushups on LinkedIn works. According to the story, he has now more than a hundred employers that have gotten in touch with him about a job after the video, by the way, the video had 700,000 views on LinkedIn. Joel (41m 37s): So the guy could have just got a sponsor for his little stunt. Probably didn't had to get a job. He could have just springboard into that acting contract that I just talked about. Yeah. Chad (41m 45s): Unlike you Joel, people like to work. Joel (41m 50s): 40 days to the election folks. If you want to make a difference, support a candidate, go vote, go get active. We out. Chad (41m 59s): We out. OUTRO (42m 20s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

Dumpster fires produce a lot of smoke, but none produce the amount of smoke that CareerBuilder's dumpster fire produces month-after-month. This week, the boys discuss: - 300M reasons to keep hating CareerBuilder - The Great Rehire? - Then we pullback the covers on a crappy Glassdoor wannabe - Target gets it's diversity on - and give Indeed a little love for its latest initiative. This episode is going to hit the spot with Taco Bell wine and chocolate-covered Whoppers! Mmm, life is good. As always, you're favorite podcast is powered by JobAdx, Jobvite, and Sovren. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides comprehensive website accessibility testing with personalized recommendations to enhance usability for people with a variety of disabilities or situational limitations. Intro (17s): Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel (20s): Oh yeah. Buckeye football is back and the Browns are on prime time tonight, baby. Life is good. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host Joel "Woody" Cheesman. Chad (34s): And I'm Justin Fields. No shit, I'm Chad Sowash. Joel (39s): On this week's show, Career Builder blows smoke among other things. Coop B ruffles feathers and Burger King isn't pushing the envelope. They're taking a blow torch to it. Grab a Whopper and stay a while everybody. JobAdX (54s): Doors are reopening and businesses picking back up. With the workforce, making its comeback and with many rebuilding their teams, are you prepared to engage the wave of returning job seekers? Whether you're struggling to fill high volume, hourly roles or looking for longterm full time talent, your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. JobAdX (1m 33s): Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution ,candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes. We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit? JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach the government job bang systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. JobAdX (2m 10s): Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruitingd Make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign. now at jobadx.com that's jobadx.com Joel (2m 25s): Big 10 football is back. Chad (2m 25s): Yes, baby. It's back! Joel (2m 27s): So the pushback is they won't be playing til October and my response is yeah so they're not playing Alaska state and Utah tech like everybody else they'll start with, you know, the Penn State's and the Wisconsins and the Michigan. So I'm pretty happy about it. I don't think they're going to miss a beat. Chad (2m 50s): They're not going to get the warm up games, but neither did the NFL in last weekend. We, I mean the NFL looked good! So hopefully these Guys will be fresh. Ready. They won't have to play these little bitty teams and they can just get out there and knock it out of the park. Joel (3m 6s): My cat's going insane. Okay. Alright. Shout Outs! Chad (3m 11s): Yes! Ed from Philly, baby. He sent me a message. He said, ah, got the first Chad and Cheese text today. Big news out from Jobvites, also, I must have something wrong with me. If I'm getting more Chad and Cheese in a different channel. No Ed, you're not my friend because you can never have enough Chad and Cheese. And that being said, text C C to (833) 799-0321 and get all the goodies! Joel (3m 43s): The good vibrations in your pocket everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Ed, needs some mental health apps. Chad (3m 47s): He's team Chad. Joel (3m 49s): He is team Chad. Shout out to Heath Neville. Heath was a high school classmate of mine who went through a COVID nightmare. Oh, I just wanted to remind people. This shit is real. Heath was basically in quarantine for 46 days. Homie lost 40 pounds in the process and thought he was going to die several times over. So kids, take Heath's story to heart - COVID is a fucked up disease virus. Joel (4m 22s): Don't get it. Protect yourself, mask up. I thought it was worth talking about in our Shout Outs. Chad (4m 25s): Yes. Mask up people. Steven Rothberg asked me, I'm going to go back to the whole texting conversation. He asked me if he joined and he got the text alerts, what would he get? And Steven, here's a little, here's a little piece, buddy. So here's a text that I actually sent out yesterday. So remember the ultimate Kronos group, the UKG they sent out an email, went out earlier this month, informing clients that UKG would be blocking web scrapers. Chad (4m 55s): That didn't last for long kids cause all hell rained down and those spider blocking measures were retracted. Apparently UKG didn't realize clients use scraping services to facilitate job postings and provide compliance. It's amazing how disconnected a core provider as big as UKG is they did not understand that their clients, I mean in massive scale, use this technology. Chad (5m 29s): I mean, this is, this is shit. We talked about 15 years ago and it's still not rectified today because we've got idiots at the helm. Joel (5m 39s): And speaking of of 15 years ago, Steven pull out your Razor text CC to (833) 799-0321 to get updates just like that one. And I'm going to give a shout out to Cindy Gallop. Chad (5m 53s): Oh yeah. Joel (5m 53s): Cindy Gallop part two aired this, this week of our two part series with her. She's a bad ass. She embarrassed me. It's all good. Don't forget to listen to that one, if you haven't already. Cindy Gallop thanks for joining us. Chad (6m 9s): So I'd like to also say texts powered by Emissary Joel (6m 13s): Emissary! Chad (6m 15s): Big SHOUT Out to LaTalle Sherman. She is Head of Experience Design at PageUp. She just found out about the Chad and Ceese podcast and she loves it! And we love you LaTalle so now let's start pushing Chad and Cheese on everyone you know. Just tell them to subscribe wherever they listen. It's pretty easy. And also Alan Title. He's a new listener. Joel (6m 37s): Yep. Shout Out to Michael Mann. This was also a text update and a shred. I believe that went out this week. Michael Mann, you might remember from My Payroll, HR, My HR Payroll, whatever that was basically took a hundred million dollars shut down the company and left a lot of people stranded without paychecks. Well, it it's time to pay the Piper Michael Mann and he was arrested. It looks like he's going to spend some time in the pokey. Chad (7m 6s): 30 years! Joel (7m 7s): It also looks like he's going to have to, to pay back some of the money that companies lost and people lost in this little scam that he had. So Michael have fun, man. I hope you meet some nice friends there in Alcatraz or wherever you're going, Chad (7m 22s): My Payroll and my HR Payroll or something like that. I can't remember. Joel (7m 25s): One of those three, six sequences of those three words. My payroll, HR, my HR, payroll, HR, my payroll, whatever. Chad (7m 33s): So as for Joel Cheesman, Taco Bell has a new house. It's a Jalapeño Noir and it's in Canada. So a tweet from Taco Bell, the luxurious toasted cheesy chalupas about to meet it's bougie best bud Bon Jour Jalapeño Noir are available in Canada for $25 Canadian. That means 25 cents U.S. When you finally get a chance to go back to Christine's Homeland, you can get a Chalupa and you can get some Jalapeño Noir. Joel (8m 11s): Yeah. Cause you know, who's borders closed right now? Canada, Yeah, not getting any of that Jalapeño Noir, although shipping could be an issue or an option I'll, I'll get with my inlaws and see if they can ship me some Jalapeño Noir, on the down low. Shout Out to Dan Finnegan, fan of the show, friend of the show, interviewed him a few times, formerly JobVite CEO, Hot Jobs, quite an icon in the industry. Joel (8m 41s): He joined Bolster and joined her last week in terms of board of advisors, I believe. And Bolster, you'll remember you called them bullshit I think last week for being Uber for executive. So we, we may need to get somebody from that company on the show to explain what the hell is going on cause if Dan's behind it, they might be aight. Chad (9m 1s): Big shoutout to Brendan McComber over at Pandalogic for tagging us, he was looking for an organic bump on LinkedIn this week. And I've heard a bunch of people bitching about being tagged in the socials. And, and personally, I don't know about you, personally, I don't mind as long as it's relevant content. Now, if it's not relevant content, you're going to get smack. But if it's relevant stuff, then I dig it. What about you? Joel (9m 28s): I don't mind the tag if it's relevant. I don't love getting alerted every time somebody comments or shares, the alert. So that's probably on me to sort of set my alert system, to not tell me when, you know, somebody comments on that post. But as a rule tagging is fine. I'm sure we do it quite a bit with our show, in terms of who we talk about. And, and who's been, who's been in Shout Outs could probably do that. Chad (9m 59s): Of course, shat will people have got, they got to know that they've been on Chad and Cheese. Big Shout Out, we'll be tagging him as well to Doeke Geertsman who is the founder over at We Are Keen in the Netherlands. He's a big fan of the podcast and they just rated us that's right, the Chad and Cheese HR's most dangerous podcast as one of their top five recruitment podcasts. Have I ever said I love lists? I love, I love lamp. Joel (10m 30s): Such an easy ranking, such an easy ranking. Shout Out to Ty Weeks, another fan of the show and friend of the show, Intel has a new logo. Will I Am was not a part of the design in terms of how I understand it, but Tyler was very excited about the new logo shared it. And I just wanted to give him a Shout Out cause we love, we love Ty anyway. And if a new logo is why we give them a Shout Out, then what the hell Intel has a new logo! Chad (10m 57s): It looks boring as hell Ty. Joel (11m 1s): Come on, it's nice and flat and blue Chad (11m 4s): Next week, September 22nd at 2:00 PM Eastern. Me and my buddy Jim Strough are going to be debating about diversity quotas and Patrick Nuran from a Biddle Consulting Group will be refereeing. We're going to do opening statements. We're going to have clocked answers. And when there's 10 minutes left, we're going to have a lightning round. So it'll be, it'll be a good time. I'm going to be talking about shit that people want to talk about, but they're not comfortable talking about in the office. Chad (11m 40s): Hopefully us having a good time talking about it, but being serious as well, will give you all a chance to actually open up in the office. Be more transparent and have these hard discussions go to circaworks.com/webinars, scroll down to friendly discourse and register today circaworks.com/webinar. Joel (12m 2s): Now does this take place in a middle school gym? Because it sounds a lot like seventh grade debate. Chad (12m 8s): Dude, I wish I, I wish if it weren't for COVID, Jim and I, that that would be a blast, as a matter of fact, one of these days that should actually be an event held at one of the conferences, that we go to. That's a good idea. Joel (12m 21s): Sure. There's gotta be a podium and a cheering cheering section of 12 year olds, if we're going to do it though. A shout out to Pete Jansens and James Carney, we were on their podcast, SAASholes this week, that's SAAS software as a service holes. It was a good time. We went down memory lane and talked a lot of Career Builder, Indeed Monster stuff. Shout Out to you guys that show was fun. And I guess be on the lookout for that in the next couple of weeks. Chad (12m 50s): Yeah. And you got called a fucking asshole. Joel (12m 53s): Yeah. Yeah. That's that's just Tuesday for me Chad that's just Tuesday. Chad (12m 59s): Yeah. And it's usually by me. RecFest One World kids, September 23rd, 24th and 25th. We're going to be on the leadership quote, unquote digital stage, having a no bullshitt conversation about the future of HR tech. We pulled in a couple of a tech CEOs, Angela Hood from this way global. And you might know Aman Brar that guy over at Jobvite had a really good discussion, less than half an hour, jump in, enjoy it. Joel (13m 35s): Yup. Yup. And speaking of Rec Fest and good times in London. BEER DROP PROMO (13m 37s): We have a new promotion. Chad, are you ready for this? We're giving away free beer. That's right, we're calling it Beer Drop. Yes. Sponsored by Adszona. Adszona We love you're going to love them because they're footing the bill for free beer to be shipped around the country by us, Chad and Cheese. You can get more by visiting Chadcheese.com/free. BEER DROP PROMO (14m 9s): That's right. For that and other free shit. We have a bunch of free shit that we want to try to get out to you guys. Cause you're always giving to us, always giving love, listens. Bourbon, beer over the years. We've loved it. And Joel and I thought we should do the same. So if you go to Chadcheese.com/free, go ahead and sign up. You can also sign up there for text alerts as well, because obviously it's good sHIt, Chad and Cheese in your pocket people, but overall Beer Drop. BEER DROP PROMO (14m 39s): We're really excited about this. If you love beer or you maybe want to get beer, give it to your wife, give it to your husband, share it with people, do it on Chad and Cheese and Addzona's dime. Joel (14m 52s): YeaThank you, Adzona. And I'm going to leave Shout Outs with this Bright Hire got $3 million this week. That was one of the few ones worth mentioning in the venture capital world. They are automation hiring platform. Imagine that automation hiring platform getting funded. It's crazy. I know, but they deserve a Shout Out Chad (15m 15s): Those three words, Topics. Joel (15m 18s): They just throw in chat bot and AI and they would have gotten 30 million for that idea. But anyway, yeah, let's Chad (15m 27s): Yeah. The funny thing is CareerBuilder commits to three year, 300 million TA investment and they don't have any of those fucking words. So here's a quote from the press release: "Global HR technology leader..." I can't, I'm going to laugh myself to death here. "CareerBuilder announced several updates to its talent acquisition suite as a part of a three year, $300 million investment. Chad (15m 57s): These updates aim to further support the changing needs of the comp the companies and job seekers in the current state of the..." get ready, "the Great Rehire and the long term future of hiring by focusing on talent acquisition, a $35 billion market that is growing at 11%." Joel (16m 18s): It's good to know that their PR company is still working. I wonder how, how long it took them to come up with the "Great Rehire?" Cause that's damned impressive. My favorite commentary from the PR was quote, "We're the only HR tech company with the candidates and the technology to create a connected experience for job seekers and employers." Really the only HR tech company, the only HR, come on now, this was a quote from newly minted, Chief Product Officer Leigh-Margaret Stull. Joel (16m 53s): I don't know much about her, but she's been around for 10 years. So she's got to know a thing or two about a thing or two, at CareerBuilder. Right? Chad (17m 0s): She's got another title too. It's called Chief Yes Woman, so she'll say yes to whatever the fuck arena says. So here, here are some of the bullets real quick and then after we get through the bullets, then we'll talk about these things. Number one, this is what CareerBuilder's going to do with this money. "Our redesigned job search app for the iPhone and Android, authentication enhancements, enhanced privacy settings, new interface with faster speeds, further integration between CareerBuilder's talent discovery platform, easier posting for remote jobs, a two way SMS function. Chad (17m 37s): Guys, Holy shit. How do you not already have this? Chad and Cheese already has a two way SMS function? Are you fucking kidding me? Joel (17m 46s): Yeah. If they would have had like enhancement for Pokemon Go for Jobs, maybe a TikTok for Jobs, or maybe like Snap Recruiting. I would have been impressed, but yeah, everything on there could have been from a press release from 2012. Chad (18m 3s): This is legit, ridiculous smoke. So what I did was I actually, I texted a few friends and here's some of the texts that I received back. So in the first one, here we go. I quote, "it's polishing a turd. These quote/unquote innovations are normal product maintenance that should happen in normal daily product management, nothing innovative as I can tell, no PPC, no AI." Then another one that's 300 million lists cost for their existing labor product. Chad (18m 39s): Tech costs compound that for three years, right? I mean, that's what the 300 millions, for. Second, most of those bulleted mentions are table stakes experiences for job sites all over the world. And they've been in development at CareerBuilder for three to five years are ready. Joel (18m 59s): Yeah, now we should give the other side here of the social media spectrum. So we have, we have Josh Akers, personal friend to both of us, and friend of this show and former CareerBuilder Broadbean employee. He shared the, the announcement and said, quote, "I really like this. Don't underestimate CBs ability to innovate. They have the people, the resources and the access to capital to make some interesting moves." So let's at least shine a light on the opposing view. Although I would say they let all their people go. Joel (19m 31s): So I'm not sure who the people are after that. I got nothing. Chad (19m 38s): So, Josh is a famous Brown nose, our number one. Okay. Love him to death. He talks good about everybody until he's had too many bourbons, but still I appreciate that. Right? Getting out there, trying to get that, that old college try, love it. But face it, CareerBuilder has been on the sales block for years now and they cannot sell that motherfucker. So they're going to polish that turnoff, and they're going to try to meet the market's table stakes in the hopes they can make enough noise to hook a buyer, that can sucker somebody in. Chad (20m 13s): Not to mention, they're also going to try their damnedest with the "Great Rehire" to pull the wool over many employers eyes to try to get them to spend more money on this polished turd.` Joel (20m 27s): But the good news is Josh won't get a legal letter for saying something bad about CareerBuilder. So maybe he was just being nice to keep the legal, legal Hawks out of his mailbox? Chad (20m 40s): CareerBuilder, just so that you know, Josh, wasn't the source in the first place, assholes. Joel (20m 48s): But keep guessing CareerBuilder, cause we like the fact that you are anxiously trying to find out who our sources are. Speaking of bad companies, let's pivot to Cootbie, I guess I'm saying that correctly. Joel (23m 16s): They got a little bit outed of this week. Didn't they? Chad (21m 4s): So Cootbie, Cootbie is a platform that is focused on calling out sucky candidate experience, but it looks like they perspectively could be risking libel in the process. So I first noticed that a Will Staney over at Proactive Talent was going to war with these guys on Twitter, calling them out for naming recruiters and stealing one and two star reviews from Glass Door to try to drive negative brand sentiment. Chad (21m 38s): So I started doing some digging here and there and I found this dude, Ernie who's on the site. And he seems to lead the team here in the US and I had a discussion with him and I said, dude, No clue. I mean, I'm not really sure that they know exactly what's going on, but I asked him what's the mission? He said the mission really and I'm paraphrasing ~ is to shine a light on bad candidate experience in the hopes of change. ~ The only problem with that is a recruiter was actually named in a bad review. Chad (22m 11s): And the person who posted the review had never gone through any type of hiring process at all. She just didn't like Just a hatchet job. Yeah. What this person in the company was posting on socials. So she went and did a bad review on the site and it was still up while I was talking to Ernie. So he defended this review. And then I asked again what the mission was because this anonymous individual didn't go through the candidate experience. Chad (22m 44s): And was the story validated? Is there anything that could corroborate with any of this? So there are all these different pieces that aren't lining up. And I said, okay, so what are your rules behind this? He said, well, we really don't have any rules. How are you policing this? Well, it's really hard to police, all we do is have interns and they seem to be turning over left and right. Overall, Ernie wants to come on the show, we might bring him on, but at this point just, it sounds like a mess. Joel (23m 16s): Well, the good news for Cootbie is people are actually going to the site. That is one hurdle that startups want to clear. These sort of anonymous free for all wild, wild West, you know, kind of sites, forums. You know, they've been around for a long time and this is the way they go. Like they become a cesspool for stupidity. I remember five, seven years ago, there was an app called peeople with two ee's and it was supposed to be Yelp for people where you could sort of talk shit about people and give them five stars or one. Joel (23m 49s): And that shit flamed out, like, you know, a bad dream. And these sites pop up continuously, I mean, it's no surprise, they need content. So they're going to go where the content is. Certainly glass door is not going to be happy about it, whether or not they do anything. I don't know, but you know, this thing's going to flame out. It's a dumb name. Like nothing. It's just stupid dude. Like it's, I mean, they're going to put jobs in there, like Indeed, indeed a backfill or something. I mean, it's not a legitimate thing. I'd be surprised if Ernie is over the age of 23, it has any experience whatsoever. Joel (24m 23s): This sounds like a weekend like dorm room idea that someone threw up on a weekend and I don't expect that we'll ever talk about Cootbie again. However, I will shine a light on a real potential threat to Glass Door and Indeed in some of the other review sites. Blind has been around for quite a while. Now for the most part Blind has been sort of a random conversation of people at companies about anything from working there to financial stuff, to the CEO's sleeping with the interns, whatever. Joel (25m 3s): And they've sort of quietly launched in the last few months, a review section for employees, basically Glassdoor Indeed style reviews, and they're getting some significant traction. So if you're really interested in this space, I'd pass up Cootbie and I'd go to teamblind.com and see what's going on there because there's a lot more fire over at blind than there is at Cootbie Chad (25m 30s): Yeah. And I think the, the big key here is that, you know, you're not focusing on a specific person or a recruiter, right? Who's already overloaded with too many reqs as it is, especially in today's environment, but the experience that you're having with the actual brand itself. There are already sites that are out there that, that support these types of things, not to mention social media. I mean, you can go out there and you can @ any company that you want. Chad (26m 3s): In this case, it just seems like, you know, they're looking for all of the things that are happening on the web from a candidate experience standpoint that sucks and they're trying to aggregate all of that. And that's just a ball of hate that we really don't need right now. Joel (26m 18s): Yeah. Scraping up the one and two reviews to sort of build some animosity or like scandal. And this is all bad stuff and fire, like, that's an interesting strategy, but yeah. It's but by the time we would book Ernie on the show Cootbie would probably be gone. So I wouldn't worry about getting that on the schedule, but if you're out there looking for new awesome services, particularly resume parsing, I would put Sovren on your list. Let's hear from them. Joel (26m 48s): And we'll be right back to talk about Indeed. Sovren (26m 51s): Sovren parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology in the industry, the more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com, that's SOVREN.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates like a human sovereign software. So human you'll want to take it to dinner Joel (27m 18s): Just when I think they should change their ad And I'm like, eh, it's pretty damn good. Alright, Indeed, they're getting on the, the PR, PR train of like helping out the world in this time of endemic crisis. Yeah. Launching the Virtual Hiring Tour. That sounds exciting. This will consist of a series of virtual Indeed hiring events, which use Indeed's proprietary video interviewing technology to remove technical hurdles and speed up the interviewing timeline by delegating the administrative tasks to Indeed, employers can focus on interviews, reducing the time to hire for an average of six weeks to a matter of days, or even on the spot job offers. Joel (28m 0s): Job seekers need only a browser and an internet connection to interview for jobs which range from his central frontline worker roles to specialize positions. Chad, this sounds exciting. Chad (28m 12s): I'm all behind it. Man. They've partnered with Goodwill, who is a major nonprofit organization across the United States. Goodwill will work closely within their communities to ensure that job seekers are aware and prepared of these virtual hiring tours, one-on-one coaching, virtual workshops. I mean, Goodwill is now a candidate acquisition engine for Indeed. Chad (28m 43s): While ZipRecruiter focuses on getting into the enterprise sector, Indeed is running fishermen commercials on fucking TV and partnering with Goodwill. Joel (28m 53s): Yes. Yes. Job seekers can go to Indeed and search quote, Indeed Hiring Events, they can find available positions, RSVP to attend the event. 700 companies have signed up for the tour so far, at least 20 positions available per company. Chad (29m 14s): Yeah. Joel (29m 14s): So yeah, if you're looking for a job now, this also gives them a nice opportunity to go spread the Goodwill and get some good PR in those local markets, do some advertising, get some Goodwill there and it gets some traction for these companies. But yeah, the whole, the whole virtual hiring job fair thing certainly has legs. We're hearing a lot of companies talk about it. And this is just another example of utilizing to get people, in quotes "face to face" Joel (29m 44s): and get them hired. Chad (29m 46s): Well we did a Firing Squad. I think it was two Firing Squads, go with Recruit Virtual. Yup. And I think that's, that's a reason why I think those types of companies have legs because they're built for white labeling with APIs and that kind of thing. And obviously it's big, we're hearing, you know, the recruit Ptolemies of the world, the Azores of the world, a Paradox. I mean, just about every company, indeed. They're looking at this new methodology while we're here in COVID right. Chad (30m 19s): And I'm not thinking that this is going to change when we flip over either. Joel (30m 23s): Yeah, I agree. I don't think we're going back to, you know, the lines around the corner, the two recruiters per table, 10 by 10 table lugging a booth across town, spending a whole day, talking to a lot of people who aren't qualified for a position, QR code, little tri-stand on the table. Like I think I there'll be room for that particularly on college campuses, I guess, people will still go to, you know, MIT face-to-face events and things like that. But for the general populace, I think the job fair days are numbered. Joel (30m 57s): For sure. Chad (30m 58s): Agreed. Agreed. Joel (31m 0s): Let's talk about your sweet spot Target and Instagram are getting into the equality. Chad (31m 7s): Target. Yeah, it's interesting. Because two years ago, Target agreed to pay like a pittance for them, 3.7 4 million to settle, settle a class action lawsuit that accused them of discriminating against black and Latino job applicants with it's approach to criminal background checks. A few years earlier, Target had to pay 3 million to settle a similar claim with the EEOC, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and what it looks like is they're starting to hoping they're starting to get the message. Chad (31m 45s): This isn't just about the pittance suit they're getting smacked with the 3.7 million and the 3 million from years past. This is what it does to their brand. And I think companies are starting to understand that mainly because it is tremendously important that brands look like the community they serve. We've talked about this in policing, but this is important for all companies to be able to look like, feel like, be like the community that they actually serve. Chad (32m 19s): So, you know, whether this was because of the smack of litigation or because it was the right thing to do, I don't give a fuck just as long as they start doing it. And they've pledged to increase representation of black employees and its workforce by 20% over the next three years. Joel (32m 37s): That's significant that's significant. Yeah. I think, you know, Target being headquartered in Minneapolis and being the home of George Floyd, which sort of sparked this whole fire of justice across the land, it was incumbent upon them. I think, to do something symbolically more than most other companies, hopefully best buy also headquartered in Minneapolis and others will follow suit, but Target, although lawsuits have come down the pike, I mean, they've done some good things in terms of equality and diversity in their stores as quoted in the story that we shared today or shared this week more than half of its stores are run by women and a third are managed by people of color. Joel (33m 16s): So it's not as if this is no diversity whatsoever, but the fact that they're taking extra strides to bring a diverse workforce, I think is notable. Chad (33m 26s): Especially in leadership. That's another big push. Cause I believe 8% of their, their leadership positions are, are black. So therefore, you know, the, the total population, 13% they're getting, they're not there yet. Again, this all comes down to outcomes. That's what we care about. Again, will this be fluff? I don't think so because their numbers look pretty damn good comparatively, but then you take a look at the, the, the next company like Instagram, and then you wonder, you know, is this, is this fluff? Chad (34m 1s): Is this real? Joel (34m 3s): Yeah. You know, I think Target, like we actually go to Target, right? Like we can actually see progress \ in these ways, it's a lot harder to go to Instagram corporate to see the things that they're doing. It's harder to see like, is this, is this algorithm behaving differently? Like, and even if it's transparent, who the fuck understands the algorithm anyway, but yeah, Instagram also came out this week and they're announcing a new equitable products, taskforce, I guess part of the responsibilities of that team include creating fair and equitable products, as well as ensuring algorithmic fairness, which most of like Facebook sounds like a lot of vaporware, a lot of like PR suck it up, similarly to how Facebook talked about we're taking, you know, we're not gonna allow political advertising, which is great. Joel (35m 0s): But how about all the fake articles that get shared on Facebook? How about doing something about that? Anyway so they've announced this, although they've had this task force at Facebook for awhile, they think it's important enough to transfer that knowledge base and energy around Instagram's diversity situation. So yeah, it sounds good. Will they be taken, you know, taken to task five years from now to see if they've actually done it? Joel (35m 30s): Probably not. Silicon Valley's sort of infamous for this kind of stuff, but yeah, let's, if we take them at their word, they're doing the right thing and making their workforce, their algorithm And their service a lot more equitable. Chad (35m 39s): Yeah. And if you want to check out the Instagram product manager position for equity and inclusion, just go to the jobs on the Instagram site or the Director of Diversity and Inclusion, which is on the Facebook site. So again, at least the jobs are there, go check them out. Are they real? Is this just a bunch of smoke, which we've talked about forever. CDOs being appointed, but having no power, no resources, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, time will tell. Chad (36m 12s): And only outcomes will tell. So check them out, get in there. And I don't know, be a Chad and Cheese insider. Joel (36m 18s): By the way, Chad, it's worth noting, an industry that we don't normally think of to have diversity in the upper ranks and the C suite is railroads and Catherine Farmer, quick Shout Out there, she's becoming the first woman CEO of an American railroad company. And if you give me a second, I'll let you know which one. All right, you're editing this BNSF railway. There you go. Chad (36m 43s): Gotcha. Alright. Joel (36m 43s): Jobvite. Jobvite (36m 43s): Jobvite the leading end to end talent acquisition suite. Named a leader in ATS, recruitment, marketing, CRM, and onboarding on G2. Kim B says "Jobvite is a user friendly passionate enterprise team that takes care of you. Jolly good." Jeffrey R says, "candidates are constantly telling us we get it right compared to other orgs." Love that! Results driven by AI. Connections built by humans. Jobvite, learn how you can evolve your TA function at jobvite.com. Joel (37m 16s): Sometimes when you work on the fly, it doesn't work out as well as you would have thought. Chad (37m 18s): Dude Burger King is on fire in Taiwan, Japan, and Finland. We're going to start with Taiwan. Joel (37m 26s): Flame broiled fire, baby. Chad (37m 29s): That was good. That was very good Burger King's latest stunt, which is a Taiwan only thing at least so far. They're now selling a chocolate topped Whopper. The Hershey's chocolate Whopper is on the menu in Thai, in a Tainan City. And people are lining up all the way down the sidewalk to buy it. Joel (37m 53s): I got nothing, man. I don't know, most people listening know what a Whopper looks like. What's on it. Now. Now imagine opening that up to see a melted Hershey bar, basically on your burger. Maybe it tastes all right? I don't know. I mean, chocolate goes with some weird shit. I can't imagine it tasting all that great? Chad (38m 13s): People on Twitter are talking about how they put peanut butter on their burgers and some of these fancy smancy burger places out there actually do it too. Why not? Chocolate? Joel (38m 22s): Peanut butter is not bad, my friend, peanut butter's not bad. A little maple syrup and peanut butter and bacon on a burger. It's not too bad. Don't hate on that. Chad (38m 34s): On to the Japan. All you can eat Burger King is coming to Japan with a monster burger on board. That's right kids. The all you can eat event is set to take place on the 18th through the 22nd of September. There are only 10 places available per 45 minutes slot. In the past Burger Kings, all you can eat deals were limited to Whoppers, fries and drinks, but for this year's iteration, there won't be any regular Whoppers. Chad (39m 4s): No. The only burger included in this offer will be a beefy monstrosity called the maximum super one pound beef burger. Joel (39m 12s): I'm sorry. We're a little late in the show, but did you say all you can eat burger King? Chad (39m 17s): Yes. Joel (39m 22s): I'm going to cry a little bit, a little bit. That's that's, that's a deal I can get behind and they probably will not be coming to the Midwest anytime soon. Cause they're going to lose money with that deal. Chad (39m 29s): Oh, easily, they're doing this in Japan. Joel (39m 29s): On a little side note if I may, as a teenager, the local McDonald's used to have a day where the basketball and football team could come and for like $2.99 or something, all you can eat a Big Macs, which that just triggered my memory, but I could down three or four Big Macs back in the day, like it was nothing. And I have all that to owe to all you can eat Big Mac night for the football basketball team back in Houston, when I was growing up. Chad (40m 0s): Your gonna start tearing up, all this reminiscing. Joel (40m 2s): It Is lunchtime. We record this way too closely. Chad (40m 5s): Well, it's time to finish. We're going to Finland! We're going to Finland kids. That's right. Burger King. And we're going to finish with love by the way, because Burger King gives Ronald a big old kiss for Helsinki Pride. The fast food mascots shared a passionate embrace in solidarity with the Finnish LGBTQ community. The apply titled painting, quote love conquers all was commissioned by Burger King and unveiled in outdoor and print advertising as well as all over their restaurants, all over Finland, during Helsinki Pride week. Chad (40m 46s): That's right kids here at the Chad and Cheese we like to finish with love. Joel (40m 50s): Spread the love, if you thought the King was creepy, as stand alone, now imagine him making out with Ronald McDonald and you've got the love conquers all Burger King ad in Finland. And with that, Chad (41m 4s): We Out. Joel (41m 4s): We Out. 5 (41m 29s): Thank you for listen to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

Another Nexxt exclusive podcast, the boys sit down with two of the hottest TA tech companies in the vendor space. Another Guinness fueled interview. Resident Dubliner Shane Gray - also CEO of Clinch - takes on newly minted CEO (CTO when recorded) Thom Kenney of Smashfly. It's an engagement battle of the fittest! Enjoy. PODCAST TRANSCRIPT Intro: This, The Chad & Cheese Podcast, brought to you in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech, the Association for Talent Acquisition Solutions. Visit Tatech.org. Chad: Okay, Joel. Quick question. Joel: Yep. Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates or your texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah, I know. I call it our Pavlovian dog reflex of text messaging. Joel: Yeah, that's probably why text messaging has a fricking 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: Crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why The Chad & Cheese Podcast love text to hire from Nexxt. Joel: Love it. Chad: Yep, that's right. Nexxt, with a double X, not the triple X. Joel: Bow-chicka-bow-wow. So, if you're in Talent Acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI, that stands for Return on Investment folks, and because this is The Chad & Cheese Podcast, you can try your first text to hire campaign for just 25% off. Boom. Chad: Wow. So how do you get this discount you're asking yourself right now? Joel: Tell them, Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You got to chadcheese.com and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long URL to remember. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Just go where you know. Chadcheese.com and Nexxt. With two X's. Announer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls and it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Chad: All right. Here we go, guys. We're actually doubling up on you this time. We've got Shane from Clinch. Say hi. Shane: Hello everybody. Good evening. Chad: And we've got Thom from the Smashfly. Thom: HUH! Chad: We're probably about 6 Guinness deep at this point. Joel: Thom's never heard this show. Somehow he thinks that's protocol. Chad: We're doing a podcast. I know. We're American. It's the podcast at the Guinness factory, and Joel has the first question. Joel: Oh, I do. Okay. Quickly, for those who don't know Clinch or Smashfly ... Chad: The Smashfly. Joel: Give them the elevator pitch, we'll go with Clinch first. Chad: 30 seconds. Shane: I was going to say we're the cheaper version of Smashfly. Chad: There you go. Easy. Thom: So you may be the cheaper version of Smashfly, we're the better version of Clinch. Chad: There you go. Joel: This is getting fun. Chad: I love this shit. Okay, seriously. Shane: I think what we are, is we're trying to help our clients turn more of the top of the funnel into people they know they can potentially hire. We see a lot of people spending a lot of money in advertising, they get the people to the career site, we get them to the job, but they don't turn into hires. We're trying to help. Chad: He's Thom, he's not Mike. Shane: Sorry, Thom. Joel: The mic is what's in front of you. Thom: I can be Thom and Mike. Joel: Yeah, talking about mike, it's all good. Thom: So, Smashfly takes the approach of pipeline intelligence. It's the ability to actually nurture and engage people before they even become an advocate. It creates much better outcomes when you go through the hiring process, you actually get a higher candidate. So, the ability for us to engage people early on, adds a tremendous value for customers, and it adds a tremendous value for the company long term. Better outcomes. Chad: Better outcomes. Were you an officer in the military? Thom: I absolutely was, and I still am. I'm actually still active. Chad: Huh. Thom: Huh. Chad: And thank you for your service. That being said, it's all about candidate engagement today, right? So, Shane, first, out of the gate, what's the biggest difference between candidate engagement today than it was just a couple years ago? Shane: I think companies are starting to realize that candidate engagement is not about a job or a complete tracking system. It's about telling that really good candidate, whose sitting in a comfortable job, but looking around for new opportunity, what's going to be an interest to them to consider their company as their next employer. It's not rehashing the job description, it's about telling that candidate what's in for them. Why should they consider literally, changing their lives for somebody else? And that takes a story. Chad: So, Thom, different question. You're new to Smashfly, right? Thom: I am. Chad: You are new. So, Smashfly has really been standing still over the last 18 months to 2 years. You haven't seen anything really new ... Saw some new partnerships that popped out here recently. Why did you want to move to a company like Smashfly? Thom: That's a question I get quite often, and the reality is, I've been trying to solve this problem for 25 years. 100's of people that I've hired, different types of ways that I've tried to engage candidates, this is a problem that has a senior exec in companies, I've been trying to solve forever. So the opportunity to mend and try to figure out how do we create that engagement, how do we create better outcomes, how do we design purposeful employment through that engagement, is something that is going to pay huge dividends for me, no matter where I am and all my friends that are trying to hire, just like I am. Joel: What sessions today most stood out to you and, which ones were the most, biggest, smelliest pile of garbage? Thom: Don't say my session. Shane: I will not. I think we're pretty aligned and we're serving different segments of the market. I think, and when I hear AI, my spider sense goes up and goes, I don't use that word I use machine learning. When I hear AI, I get deeply suspicious... What I thought was kind of interesting was the large group in the room today and I think they have a real challenge on their hands, with Google in the room as well. Google is ultra top-of-the-funnel in many ways. So I think alot of those job boards, it's kind of interesting, is will they ... I think that's the question, will they have to move further down the funnel and provide more services to help their clients feel worth from their job board return, or will they ... I guess reinvent themselves in another way? Joel: Do you believe Google's AI? Does that spark your senses as well, or do you think Google can actually pull it off? Shane: From personal experience their AI, in a lot of cases it's really good, but like all AI, it takes training. It's imperfect until it's fully trained. Joel: Thom? Thom: I would agree with that. I couldn't agree more, actually. The entire concept of knowledge based AI, is really what some people miss in the long term. AI is not a a panacea. You don't go and buy AI and it magically changes your business. Every AI system, like a learning system, just like me being brand new to Smashfly ... I've got to learn about my company, about my customers, about my competitors, and I've got to adjust what I'm looking at from a roadmap, what I'm looking at from technology structure, based on what I learn. A system that just gets plopped in, that says I know have AI, much like you've had all these technology changes across time, I've now got big data, remember when big data was the big thing? Where did big data go? Well, big data is now just a part of AI, because you need the data to feed into AI. The knowledge based aspect of training artificial intelligence tools, through machine learning, through deep learning, through adaptive learning, is really what makes the difference. Chad: So, redirect, Thom. You just had a partnership with Olivia Paradox, right? Thom: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Chad: On the chat bot side of the house, and you've had one with hiring to solve as well. So is Smashfly's focus now, partnership? Or are you looking to do any acquisitions? Thom: That's an open question for us as we look forward to the landscape. What I will say is that through integration of tools, with the Smashfly platform and the idea of bring your own partner, is something that is very appetizing to our enterprise customers. They want the ability to bring the best of breed tools. They don't necessarily want one full stop solution, so we need to be as flexible and agnostic as we possibly can to deliver the best products to the marketplace. Chad: So, Shane, same question to you, little different. Are you looking for partners to be able to create more of a full solution so that you can focus mainly on really the core of what Clinch does? Shane: Yes. I'll tell you why, because I think a lot of people think a chat bot is a chat. It's a messenger chat. It's a very, very powerful chat, and I think it's really a great way, whether it's your own channel or if you're managing something like Facebook, which is amazing way to reengage people. Imagine trying to get a message to anybody's phone on their lock screen because you're utilizing Facebook messenger. - that's powerful I think we see the chat bot world as channels, we will build some of the machine learning around job discovery and brand discovery, but there will be these cases where we will absolutely partner with people who are providing the most amazing experience built on and hard given training for these AI questions. Chad: Last question. Joel: I was gonna say thanks for your time guys. We're a little bit over. Chad: Sweet. Joel: Where can we find out a little more about Clinch and Smashfly? Thom: Smashfly.com is a great place to get all the information you need. Shane: Likewise. We're on Clinchtime.com. Thank you very much. Joel: Thanks, guys. Chad: Sweet. Shane: Thank you. Chad: Thanks, guys. Okay, okay, okay, before we go, remember when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing? Joel: Yeah, you know all abut reflexes. And then I brilliantly tied it to text messages 97% open rate, then I elegantly ... elegantly tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh, Chad, I can be elegant. Chad: Whatever, man. I know it's redundant, you already heard about text to hire, but you're still not using text to hire from Nexxt. Joel: What? Chad: I know, man. Joel: Come on, man. Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again, this is all by elegant design, it's all about text to hire, and it's all about Nexxt. Joel: And elegant design. So go to chadcheese.com, click on the Nexxt logo and get 25 ... Yeah, I said 25% off your first text to hire campaign. Chad: Woo! Joel: Engage better. Use text to hire from Nexxt. 2 X's. Chad: Boyah. Outro: Thanks to our partners at TA Tech. The Association for Talent Acquisition Solutions. Remember to visit tatech.org. #Smashfly #Clinch #Nexxt #TATech

AllyO recently faced a panel of four judges at TAtech in New Orleans for Chad & Cheese's Death Match competition pitting four start-ups against each other. Listen now to see how it went down for them. PODCAST TRANSCRIPT sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps corporations tap new channels to find qualified talent in the disability community, manage culture change, leverage federal and state hiring incentives, respond to a changing regulatory environment, and strengthen their workforce through diversity. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Welcome to Death Match, part one of four. This Chad and Cheese Death Match episode features David Bernstein of AllyO. The Death Match took place at TAtech on September 27th in New Orleans at 9:00 AM in the morning with a room full of TAtech practitioners loaded with mimosas, Bloody Marys, beer, and Chad and Cheese snack. Enjoy after a word from our sponsors. Okay, Joel, quick question. Joel: Yeah. Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates or you're texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately and I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah, I know, I call it our Pavlovian dog reflex to text messaging. Joel: Yeah, that's probably why text messaging has a freaking 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: We had a crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why the Chad and Cheese podcast love text to hire from Nexxt Joel: Love it. Chad: Yeah, that's right, Nexxt, with the double X, not the triple X. Joel: So if you're in talent acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI, that stands for return on investment folks, and because this is the Chad and Cheese podcast, you can try your first text to hire campaign for just 25% off. Chad: Wow. Joel: Boom. Chad: So how do you get this discount you're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell them Chad. Chad: It's very simple, you go to chadcheese.com and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: It's not long that you aren't able to remember, just go where you know, chadcheese.com and Nexxt with two Xs. All right, make sure you got that drink in hand. Anybody who wants a beer, if you would rather have a beer, we have beer up here at the judges table by the Stage. Peter Weddle: Good morning everyone. Chad: Good morning. Peter Weddle: You can tell there's very few things that would bring a crowd like this out at 9:00 AM after a night on the town in New Orleans, so props to our good friends Chad and Cheese. Without further ado here's Chad and the Death Match. Chad: Hello. Good morning, good morning. So today we're going to do our very first Death Match. So hopefully everything goes off without a hitch. If you've listened to the podcast, we do firing squad. This is kind of like an iteration, what's going to happen is we have four contestants, they're going to have two minutes to pitch. No PowerPoint presentations, they are going free falling. So no PowerPoint presentations, they are going to do two-minute pitch, and then after that the balance of their time, their 15 minutes is going to be Q&A by our American Idol judging panel. All right, next we have AllyO VP of everything, David Bernstein, bring it. Watch out, he's throwing shit. Chad: Koozies galore sees all of you. Give Joel a koozie, he always bitches because he doesn't get any koozies. All right, bring it on up buddy. Chad: All right, so Aman did pretty. David Bernstein: He did. David Bernstein: He did, and I'm not going to do karaoke this morning though. Chad: You're not doing karaoke this morning, okay. Are you ready? David Bernstein: I'm ready. Chad: Let's do this. David Bernstein: Let's box. Good morning New Orleans, how is everybody today? David Bernstein hear from AllyO. We are an end-to-end AI recruiting platform, we ... I'm going to make it really simple. We exist for three core reasons, our goal is to make recruiting delightful and efficient for all. Everything we do at AllyO is based on those three premises. Everything is all about what's going on today with the candidate. Our focus is actually to look beyond and focus on all the stakeholders. So at AllyO we think about what's going on for the recruiter, what's going on for the hiring manager, what's going on for the head of talent acquisition, and how do we bring all of that together to create a cohesive experience for everybody participating in the process? David Bernstein: It's real simple, we do an AI conversation end-to-end using our own homegrown technologies to be able to provide an array of workflow capability throughout the process. Our conversational front-end manages the providing of data and the capture. Our workflow automation engine will be able to then capture that data and put that data in any source system and our analytics backbone will be able to provide the insights that come from all that data that's captured. We've got a pretty impressive array of customers so far in this early stage. We've been able to capture a pretty high percentage of the high volume recruiting market. We have one in five of the top five players in 16 industries as our current customers. David Bernstein: We've been able to secure core backing from Google, from the AI perspective, Randstad from the sourcing background, sourcing and recruiting, and then we have Bain Capital who's also stood behind us in terms of helping us build the company. Our goal is to really make it, again, very simple. We really want to provide an end-to-end recruiting experience. Chad: And that's it, Faith. David Bernstein: All right. Joel: Nice job. Chad: Very good. Joel: That's two minutes. Chad: Hit it Faith. Faith Rothberg: All right, thanks David, that was great. Now I may be mistaken here but I think that a lot of the data that you guys are using to support your platform is from LinkedIn, is that right? David Bernstein: No. Faith Rothberg: Okay, then I'm thinking another wrong thing. Now so then I'll just ask a different question. David Bernstein: Sorry, no, no, so we capture the data coming in from the applicants or we can actually reengage from any candidate pool, so either way. But we're an engagement layer, we say we're a system of engagement or experience in a system of insights. Faith Rothberg: So how do you integrate within those enterprise companies? With the ATS and things like that? David Bernstein: You mean like from a technical perspective? Faith Rothberg: Yeah. David Bernstein: Yeah, so it's real simple, we can either do that through a flat-file integration or through API. We're able to either buy directionally with pull data and we're able to push data back. We also have a centralized platform, so customers who ... What we find is that actually like store managers, district managers, infrequent users like to use our casual user interface, and then we'll have the power user or the recruiter use the back of what they've already been trained on it in terms of their to AllyO, their Isms, their Greenhouse, whatever that would be. Deb: My question to you, I know that there was conversation at HR Tech where a lot of people were questioning the end-to-end. I'd like to hear you walk us through a used case from start to finish. Chad: Where are the ends, is that what you're asking? Deb Andrychuk: Yeah. Chad: Where is- Deb Andrychuk: Am I right on that? Chad: Yeah, no, no, I was clarifying for myself. David Bernstein: So to keep it simple again, that's been our whole premise is we say from hello to higher and beyond, that's the way that we think about things. So everything from providing a Walmart style greeter at the front of your website to be able to greet every candidate that comes and be able to help them get directed to the right job opportunities through that conversation. And be able to get them pre-screened and qualified, get those qualified candidates into the interview scheduling. We manage all that deep interview scheduling right into the calendar with Office 365, G Suite, and Iron Outlook, and then beyond. We're into the whole kind of reminder process, the background checking on boarding, and we actually also do a 30, 60, and 90 day check in with all the new hires. Throughout that process, it's all conversational, it's in a Q%A fashion, we can provide assessments. David Bernstein: Either provide the customer with their ability to do any in-house tool, any kind of in-house questions that they may be asking candidates, or we can tap in directly into their vended solutions. So whether they're doing skill tests or psychometric types of assessments, we can actually deep-link and pull those in and provide those direct links to the candidate directly. Chad: So Chatbot chat Chatbot, we hear Chatbots all ... David Bernstein: We talk about Chatbots all the time. Joel: All the time. Chad: Yes, so how do you, knowing that there are a sea of Chatbots out there, how do you distinguish yourself and get away from all of the Chatbot noise? Because there's so much Chatbot noise right now. David Bernstein: Great question, we actually think a lot about this. One of the things that we firmly believe is by 2020 we believe the Chatbot industry is just going to become a commodity. So to distinguish ourselves, we really have focused on four or five key areas. One of those is that we believe in the end-to-end automation experience is critical. We're deeply doubling down in the technology investments relative to automating that end-to-end, and it's really about the art of the possible. If you abstract up what we do at a key conversational level, we're actually capturing data and providing information. David Bernstein: We'll actually be able to do that through audio, video, or text. We'll be able to do that on any platform, and be able to then do that scheduling, employee referrals, reminders, and be able to do the reminders through email, through text, through even phone reminders. It's an end-to-end conversation that will really distinguish us from just being a point solution as a Chatbot. Joel: First off, I'd like to compliment your shoes. It takes a real man to pull off the moccasin loafer. David Bernstein: Rocker man, yeah, you like that? Joel: From even talking to some of your competitors, one of the main challenges I see with the Chatbot business is scale. Most that I've talked to, you have to call the customer, what are the questions you want to ask, or there's some sort of interaction that takes place to know what the questioning is for a candidate in the automation process. My question is do you agree, and if so how are you tackling that problem or is it just going to be a scaling issue for all Chatbots going forward? David Bernstein: Well, I don't want to give away all of our secret sauce, but look we've managed millions of conversations today and we've learned a lot through that. I can say that between the machine learning and our team of experienced customer success team focus, we've really automated the process itself. What we're really doing is so we took a large customer last week live at Marathon Oil, we brought them live in 10 days. Again, it's because we understand the nuances of being able to do this. What we've also found in this early adopter stage is that a lot of customers aren't ... So we have a buffet of capability but the customers are typically piloting in key areas where they can see most immediate return. So we're able to take them in the bite size transformational going live. Joel: Let me interrupt you, you said 10 days as if you were proud of that and that stuff we're not turnkey I think you would agree. Will that 10 days become a day at some point or will it always be a 10-day turnaround to get a new customer up and running? David Bernstein: No, you're right, so it's a journey down from some other numbers. So our goal though obviously is to be able to make this something that's very different than their system-wide implementation experience. Again, I think anything that's going to be a challenge for any technology vendor is the adoption of this and how to best deal with the transformation issues. But in terms of just the deployment ready capability within 10 days and be able to manage that process has gone down from less than a two-week number down to about 10 days. And being able to continue to scale that down as we automate more and more of the process to bring candidates and customers on board. Faith Rothberg: My question is around scale, so clearly you've had a lot of conversations already, and so you've learned how to or hopefully are learning how to scale as far as conversations go. But what about scaling as far as for the recruiter and the thousands of candidates that they have to go through for high volume hiring in these enterprise companies? David Bernstein: Yeah, so what we see is that 80% of what these recruiting teams are doing is something that can be automated, and so as long as we can dive in and manage that and be able to capture those conversations that they'd be having, but how do we then use the AI and the NLP to be able to then replicate that. It's one and done and then we set that up and it's on its way, so the scaling and then obviously we bring the learnings from past customers up to the new customer base. It really transforms the whole on boarding process. Deb Andrychuk: You were talking about the fact that clients can buy pieces of the solution or they can buy the full suite, and I was just curious so out of all of your clients today, what's the percentage of those that are using all of the capabilities? David Bernstein: Great, the pilot is showing us where customers are zeroing in most, and so what we often see is it's around prescreen and qualifying schedule is where the heavy proponents of that is. But we do have a number of customers, you can go to Hilton, jobs.hilton.com. For example, if you want to see AllyO in action, you can go to Sprouts, you can go to Marciano's, you can ... Five Guys. You can go around the Internet and see where some of our customers are ... Pitney Bowes, Pitney Bowes, has decided to deploy us not just in English but English and Spanish, and they've decided to create a user experience that actually weaves together these Lego building blocks of capability that we have. Where they're actually doing FAQ with the job search and the prescreening qualify all under one cohesive candidate experience. David Bernstein: I have other customers that say, "You know what, let's let them go naturally through the application process, through the ATS," but have AllyO pick up tomorrow and say, "Hey there, how are you today? Thanks for your interest in what we're doing here at XYZ company and we have a few following questions." Be able to manage at all process and those that get qualified then move into the interview scheduling component, and those that don't get packed and be able to be moved into some other category and/or will be redirected which is another one of our features. Is you're not necessarily a fit for this one but here's some other jobs that we think you might want to take a look at. So very some interesting ways to be able to handle the whole candidate experience. Chad: So not only Chatbot, Chatbot, Chatbot, but now AI. You're using all of the buzz words necessary to try to get into somebody's top of mind, right? My question is, is this really AI? Help me understand because it really seems like RPA. It's really process automation, which is awesome and necessary, tell us why it's AI instead of more RPA? David Bernstein: The intelligence around understanding intent of candidate conversation is probably one of the biggest components there. Whether it's just the candidate or understanding the recruiter but it's really being able to process just words on the page into something meaningful. The intelligence kicks in there, then the machine learning goes with it to see the patterns and be able to then figure out how to act next. Chad: So they're not just standard responses, these are responses that are being pulled together by the AI to be able to have a response that's different in custom for every type of conversation? David Bernstein: Yeah, and not to be able to do ... So to be able to do that in multiple languages but also be able to do that in multiple voices. If a customer has two jobs, they might have one job here in New Orleans and the same an HR job in New York and then an HR job in New Orleans and the conversation would be, "Hey chat, how y'all doing today?" From the New Orleans position and the same for the same company but the interaction because we know the location of the job and the language and the voice and will be more particular to New York, "Hello, how are you?" For example, right? It's a real deep human-like conversation that we're driving for. Chad: In New York wouldn't it be like, "Hello, what do you want?" David Bernstein: Yeah, really. What the F? Chad: What are you? Joel: I'm going to push back on the human touch, I feel like in all this technology, a lot of the human element is lost and I want to ask you about branding. So there's a human to human or at least a perceived human to human connection and communication, but what are you guys doing to help companies build their corporate brand whether it be through videos, pictures, what we're doing as a company, etc. David Bernstein: That's really not in our category, so it's really on the company and where that deployment mechanism for communicating how they would like to convey themselves. Out of the box, we do have a natural language that we would propose on how to interact in that human-like way. But really we're relying on our customers to know how they'd like to brand themselves, and AllyO becomes the agent and to be able to converse that. Think of it like you hire AllyO to join your team, AllyO is a digital assistant that joins your team to manage a certain amount of their process. We see something like 60, 63, anyway some high 60% of the candidates at the end of the conversation with AllyO will actually say, "Thank you." That real even though they understand they're talking to a machine, to say thank you is that indicator and the trust that they're engendering with that experience, then we'll feedback into their experience with that employer. Chad: So with the last 30-ish seconds, where ... You get the first question next time. Where can we find out more about AllyO? David Bernstein: Besides allyo.com? Chad: Yeah. David Bernstein: Yeah, davidb@allyo.com, our Twitter account, we're running webinars, I'm going to be at SIA next week talking about things. We are connected and I'm going to be doing more and more work with the job board industry, the staffing industry, RPAs. Yeah, moving all around. Thank you. Chad: Thank you. Hey, those are some pretty hot loafers by the way. Yeah, I like them. David Bernstein: Thank you. Chad: Thank you very much. Everybody, AllyO. The Steven Seagal of the recruiting industry. Good looking man. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh, yeah, you're welcome. Thanks to our partners at Tatech, the Association for Talent Acquisition Solutions. Remember to visit tatech.org. #AllyO #chatbots #AI #MachineLearning #ML #DeathMatch #LIVE #TATech