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Dollar bills continue to flow into HR and recruiting tech companies and people are still launching job boards..?? Wait.. What? Yeah, you heard that right. Job boards. C'mon, really? The boys break down all the latest news. - Is this a WorkHere pivot or the withering dance of start-up death? - Find.jobs launches - Is Universe.jobs now officially a failed experiment? - Hire-Maturity launches?? Doesn't this feel like Eons 2.0? - Joel hates on Dynamic Signal after getting $36.5 million - Vettery gets acquired for a rumored ~$100 million by Adecco - StatusToday scares the hell out of us! - And a Halloween beat down that ended badly ... very badly. Enjoy. And visit our kickass sponsors: America's Job Exchange, Sovren, Ratedly, Catch 22 Consulting and Job2Careers. Feel the love! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Announcer: Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinions and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Greetings and salutations homeboys and homegirls. Welcome to Chad & Cheese, HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman, also known as the Barry White of HR. Chad: And that is so much shit. And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, old people need jobs, .jobs, gets jobs and a lot of former WorkHere employees are looking for jobs. Stay tuned. Chad and I might need new jobs by the time this one's over. Chad: Word. Announcer: Google, Lever, Entelo, Monster, Jibe. What do these companies and hundreds of others have in common? They are use Sovren Technologies. Some use our software to help people find the perfect job, while others use our technology to help companies find the perfect candidate. Sovren has been the global leader in recruitment intelligence software since 1996, and we can help improve your hiring process too. Announcer: We'd love to help you make a perfect match. Visit sovren.com, S-O-V-R-E-N.com for a free demo. Chad: We'd love to help you make the perfect match. Joel: Her voice is way too smooth for the saltiness that we're feeling today. It's going to get ugly I think. Chad: It's going to get ugly. It's going to get ugly. Well, let's start with the ugliness. Something that wasn't ugly was Jeff Tennery from Moonlighting.com. Joel: I have to say, they did the promotion of the show the right way. If every company that we interview gave us that much love, we'd have the highest rated podcast on iTunes. Chad: He also edumacated you and I on a blockchain, cryptocurrency and the Moonbit. What the hell a Moonbit was until Jeff talked to us. Joel: Plus educating us is usually like animated gifs and emoticons, but other than that ... Chad: Sock puppets. And then the newest Firing Squad, brought to you by Jobs2Careers, featuring our friend Adam Gordon. Joel: Apparently, we had a bit of good news. We're going to see Adam in Dublin next month. Chad: We are. We are. Which means I told him I would buy him his first Beamish since he said that is the beer to drink when you're when you're in Ireland. Definitely, there's no question, you got to drink Guinness. Joel: Got to. Chad: But he said Beamish ... He actually, said this is his quote, "Beamish is bad ass." Joel: It was. You and I enjoy a bad ass beer like no other boys I know, and Beamish will be on the menu for sure. Chad: That's right. So, if you haven't heard of the Firing Squad podcast. Adam's with Candidate.ID, he knocked it out of the park. Good job for him. Check it out on chadcheese.com. Joel: Well, I'm not sure he hit it out of the park with my review, but yes, he did well, I appreciated the time. I'm going to give a shout out to the Job Board Doctor who gets a shout out every week. He commits to the show, so he deserves it. For his quote that I am the, quote, 'Barry White of a HR'. Yeah, baby. Thank you. Chad: Dude, you not have Barry White level of game. That's all there is to it. Joel: I'm thinking more Marvin Gaye, but I'll take Barry White. Chad: I'm thinking more Tweety The Bird. Listen, we've got something coming up March 6th. It is the Chad And Cheese webinar series. What is that, Joel? What is a Chad And Cheese webinar, first off? Joel: Our webinars are are unconventional to say the least. We're on screen, we're interactive, we're peppering our guests with questions, we're challenging them on issues. This is not just a show me a PowerPoint and tell me what I should think. This is some legit battle bot in the octagon. What other cliché can I make up? Mad Max: Thunderdome webinar experience. So, you need to head on over to chadcheese.com and sign up because you'll be sorry if you don't. Chad: That's right. It's on the growth of the gig economy, starring Lori McInerney from Shiftgig, Ryan Christoi from KRT Marketing. Yeah, it's definitely not going to be a run of the mill, that's not how we do shit. You know that or you wouldn't be listening to this goddamn podcast. Go to chadcheese.com, click on the little banner, register your ass, be there and have a good time. Joel: Awesome. LinkedIn folks continue to rob us, apparently. I don't know why but we appreciate them. Chad: Yeah. I love the LinkedIn folks and also love from others on LinkedIn, Elena Valentine, Matt Disher, Brian Howard, Mark Feffer, Ed Rogers. There's a bunch of people that are out there giving us love on LinkedIn. So, thanks guys, we really appreciate that. Joel: Yes. And no one gave us duplicate content emails this week, so we appreciate that. Way to go outside the box everybody. Give us separate messages. Chad: Very nice. Also, shout out to Josh over at Randstad. Thanks for listening dude. And no, there will not be a grilled cheese Sowash, just so you know. Not cool dude, not cool. Joel: I'm not sure what a grilled cheese Sowash is. Chad: It was a very bad joke, Josh. A very bad joke. Joel: Yeah, it was. Chad: Shame. Joel: That's a double boo. You're getting some crickets on that one. That's all. Got any shout outs left for you? Chad: Got the Philly crew. Ed Joel, Joey Stubs, Bridget, Michelle, Julie and never forgetting Nancy. And then the Boston Crew; Kia, Tracy, Colin, Jayman, Bill, Gerry and all the hardened lessers over in Beantown. John, Kyle, we got all these people that are freaking giving a shout out. Last but not least, I actually had to create a page because we are going to all these damn places, conferences and meetings and stuff and people for some reason want to meet us. So, if you to to chadcheese.com, there's a little banner that says, "Come meet us, the Chad And Cheese." You click on it and you can see all the different places that we're going. Chad: Obviously, you'll hear about it, but definitely you should go to a TATechEurope in Dublin, Ireland. The discount code is right there on the website. We also have SHRM Talent coming up up in Vegas. Joel: Dude, how weird that SHRM, like the ivory tower SHRMites are letting us to their show and break shit? It's awesome. Way to go SHRM. Chad: And I have to give big props to the people at SHRM because they know we're going to break shit. It's kind of like when you're that new parent and you go around and you're baby proofing the house. That's exactly what they're going to try to do at SHRM Talent in Vegas, but we're still going to break shit, guys, I'm sorry. Joel: They think we read contracts or something. I don't know what the hell that's about. All right. You're ready to get to the show? Chad: Yes. Joel: $100 million, dude, that was so much money thrown around this week, none of it came to us. But lead story, Vettery got $100 million, rumored get 100, I don't think they actually published that number, but Adecco backed up the Brinks truck for, I don't know, not the most exciting company in the world, but good for them. What's your take on this $100 million investment? Chad: It's kind of weird because their focus, it doesn't seem scalable, first and foremost. On the website, it says, "Our team will help you polish your profile, nail your interview and be by your side all the way till your new job." That doesn't seem scalable. How many fucking people do you have working at that company that can obviously service all of these job seekers and curate lists of talent for companies at the same time? It doesn't seem very intuitive. It doesn't seem very scalable. Chad: But then I went into one of their job descriptions as I was researching it, and in the job description, not on the website but in the job descriptions, it talks about leveraging machine learning, AI, real time data. So there's something that's happening behind the scenes that they just don't want people to know about or something. Because you can't find it anywhere other than digging really deep into some of the information on the site. Joel: You know what else doesn't scale very well? Chad: What's that? Joel: Paying job seekers $1,000, I guess it's now $500. It used to be $1,000, which proves that it's not scalable. They've lowered it, they've cut it in half since they launched back in the day. But yeah, paying job seekers a lot of money is usually hard to scale, so good luck with that one as well. I think they probably stopped at the market of high tech. Accounting is not in there, it's like high tech- Chad: IT, finance and sales. Joel: Finance and sales. Yeah. Once you get to burger flippers and janitorial staff, you're probably not dishing out $500 per player. Now, this is not just for registering but you actually av to get hired and be on the job for 90 days, but paying job seekers lot of money usually doesn't end very well. Chad: That's a gimmick, and that's a gimmick to be able to pull, obviously seekers in, and as you said, they started out at $1,000. It might have been more than that at one time, but they started out like at a $1,000 and they've been cutting that down. It's a gimmick and that's how you get these things roaring and it's going to go away. There's no question. How do you hit critical mass? That's not scalable, but also I think human interaction piece is not scalable, so they're going to have to do something about that as well, especially with a company like Adecco. Joel: That's a big company. Yeah, they might just swallow them up and forget they bought them. I wrote about these guys are about two years ago and the bonus, the signing bonus was a grand. And they had a referral program that if you refer someone, you get you get 1500. I don't think the referrals is still there. They charge a one time fee of 15% of new hires' based salary and they have to be on the job for 90 days or you get 100% of your money back. Chad: Just from a business owner standpoint, I don't see it progressing and maturing in the same way. There is no way in hell they can scale. Joel: How many startups come out and say, "We're going to put recruiting out of business," and for some reason never do? It's kind of weird that way, but they do get PR. Chad: They do, and they get bought, apparently. Joel: Let's start a business where we put recruiting out of business, we have AI, automation, block chain, and we launch ICO and we'll all get rich. Chad: We'll call it the Cheese Bit. (cricket sound effect) Joel: U had to wait for it but you knew you were getting the crickets. Let's move on to something about; higher maturity. Chad: Yeah. Let's just talk about companies that are not going to get a $100 million. Remember Jeff Taylor the 50 plus social network back in the day after he left Monster. Remember that? Joel: I do. Chad: Yawn. He said Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman, Jane Seymour. Everything was lining up. The problem was that it wasn't adopted, and it really turned into literally a list of obituaries. It turned into a graveyard. And they eventually shut the site down, so Eons doesn't exist anymore. But now, in the advent of 50 plus dating sites and those types of things, I guess ... Peter, over at ... he used to be CEO at Recruit Military, he thought that this might be a good idea, a good niche. Chad: But the funny part about this is, it's not just being a website, it's about having job fairs and feeding a website in to this demographic. So, you tell me, how do you think, we're not 50 yet but how many job fairs have you gone to in the last 10 years, first and foremost, and do you see yourself doing that in the future? Joel: No. And not many, in that order. Chad: To me, this just doesn't make any sense. It's not focused on the actual target demographic itself. It just sounds like he kind of like the model of Recruit Military, which is a very heavily event-focused organization, and it feeds in to a job board. But you can't do that with everything, Peter. So, good luck buddy, but I don't think there's any way in hell that you're getting out of this one. Joel: First before I before I spout off here, if you have time go to YouTube and search Eons' commercial. It's E-O-N-S. It's hilarious. I assume it's still up there. The one thing that's funny about old people is they don't want to admit that they're old. And the reason that Eons failed was because if I join an old people's social network, I'm basically admitting that I am old. And I don't want to do that. So, I'm going to go to Facebook or MySpace at the time was probably the number one social network online, but there was very little need for that. Joel: Dating is a lot different because I'm guessing most people are realistic and think, "I'm only going to date people that are within like 10 years of my own age." Being on tinder if I'm 69 years old is probably not a real reasonable strategy. Maybe it is, I don't know. But yeah, for jobs, why would I not be on Indeed, ZipRecruiter, Jobs2Careers, Google, etc. Chad: Remember, AARP put out their own goddamn job board. It's targeted to a base of people who they used to hurt. That makes fucking sense. This doesn't make any sense. Joel: And by the way, there's a lot of stuff in ... you know diversity better than I do, but apparently people aren't hiring old people, they're hiring young people. So posting on old people sites, probably not something a lot of companies are going to do, whether they'd admit to it or not. If you want to get a job, go to where everyone goes, not just where like a certain age, demographic goes, particularly old folks. Joel: Your favorite company here in Indianapolis- Chad: Canvas? goCanvas.io? Joel: Not Canvas, not ... There's another one, shoot, I'll think about it. No, not them, not direct employers, not, Monster you sort of hear. Chad: Next is here. Joel: Not Next. Well, next might be your favorite. WorkHere who you love, know and love. WorkHere, I'll refresh our listeners' memory before you throw them in to the sausage grinder. They initially launched a sort of a small business, they wanted to go to like your local bar, restaurant, laundromat, etc, have them put a sticker on their window similar to Yelp and have people download the app on their Android or iPhone, and then clicked that they wanted to work there, work here or work there, and then the business could then download the app themselves and they could connect. Joel: If this is getting boring, you're not alone. They they connect with the job seekers and then you get a job. It turns out that that model doesn't really work very well. In November of '17, they laid off their sales team, which sounds ominous but it was I guess two people, and they have basically pivoted to having like large enterprise companies that have like global to at least national needs and then they have super targeted advertising messages. People download the app, and then, this is where you're going to go off. Joel: On the scale thing is, they actually have what's called a career coach, and these career coaches then contact the job seeker based on what the company needs. They're going to try like fix people up, match make, and companies are going to pay on a per applicant basis. Chad: Oh God. Hit the cricket sound effect, would you please? Jesus. Joel: Not the big guns? How about your favorite? I'll let you go off on them and I'll defend them probably. Chad: I'm just not going to waste my time, really. There are three things. We're in the age of productivity, of efficiency, of AI, machine learning and those types of things. Three things. It's counter intuitive, it's not scalable, and it's fucking stupid. Take a look at companies like Jobalign and Talentify. These are high volume tapes of companies who can really focus on scale and being able to help companies like WorkHere is trying to help, but but doing it in a totally different and automated manner. Chad: It just makes a hell of a lot more sense. And what they're trying to do, again, it's almost like they're regressing to trying to go back in to the late 1990s for goodness sakes. So, it just doesn't make sense at all. Joel: The precipice of this was the fact that people would download the app and register, and just sort of assume that they would get a job. Companies would join this thing and just assume they would get mashed with candidates, whereas with employers, there's a lot more action going on with like resumes being submitted on whatever job sites they are on, etc. They needed a way to spur job seekers to actually move, to actually like put on a tie and go into Starbucks or wherever and ask for the manager, so these coaches are there to make that happen. Joel: Now, I agree with you that ... There's two sort of schools of thought here, there is automation and we're going to talk with chat bots and that's what's going to happen, or AI is going to let go through tons of profiles online, everywhere and then like engage people in that manner and then bring people to you. I tend to agree with you that that's where the world's going, but if you sit down with the WorkHere guys, they're convinced that the human touch, the people talking to other people is where it's at, and they can pay someone a very minimal amount of money and get that application there for 200 bucks a pop, and make money from that. So good luck to them. We'll see how it works out. Joel: Yeah. Let's take a break, shall we? I think we both deserve a little break. Chad: I need a beer. Joel: Yeah. It is four o'clock on Friday, it's five o'clock somewhere too. Let's hear from AJE really quick because we love them and we want them to get some exposure. We'll be right back. Announcer 2: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment an OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand plus customer comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment, designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women and minorities, and empower employers to pursue and track active outrage with their local community based organizations. Announcer 2: Want to learn more, call us at 866-926-6284 or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com. Joel: The show just gets worse from here, but let's do this. More money is getting thrown around, I swear to God, like Dynamic Signal, who you love. I am not so much, and StatusToday, which one do you want to talk about first? Chad: Let's go with Dynamic Signal since I love it. Joel: All right. Tell us why you love it. Tell us what they do and then why you love it. Chad: It's one of those things where we need to meet and we need to engage individuals, employees, job seekers, where they are at. If they're using Facebook, if they're using texting, any way that they want to engage, even if they're using the phone. We need to be able to engage them that way. Dynamic Signal is pretty cool because it pulls all of those together in one app. Let's say, for instance, I'm a manager and I want to be able to disseminate information into a large team scenario, or I'm a CEO or something like that, and want to disseminate that information out. Chad: It's not just all coming over in intranet, or in email, or what have you, and actually is fed down through the messaging pipeline that is pretty much determined by me, the employee, and what they're seeing is, or what the research that they have shown is that, you have 77% higher productivity when employees are engaged and are educated on what's going on. So I think as we take a look at Slack and the evaluation that Slack has, Facebook Messenger, Text, all these different platforms, it's going to be really hard for companies to get their hands around, how do I communicate with them after they're hired and how do I help from a retention or productivity standpoint, being able to actually pull all that together in this one app, I think is pretty genius. Joel: Okay, Genius, it's an engagement app, it's people chatting with each other and taking polls and getting data around that. It's a nice business maybe, is it genius? Probably not. That would probably StatusToday, although that's scary. We'll get to them in a second. The thing that confuses me ... You have a lot of companies getting money in this space, you mentioned Slack, Facebook has a product now, Google for Hire. They all probably have some sort of messaging that you may all be able to download as an app, that would probably be kick ass. Joel: You got Yammer, who people forget about, was the original sort of Twitter for the workplace that was bought by Microsoft, which to me that's a huge drop by Microsoft, that they would let Yammer just get taken over by Slack. That's neither here nor there. It's a nice little business, but are you going to choose it over those other options? I don't know. Is anyone going to buy these guys? Chad: That's just isn't choosing over the options, that's just being able to pull those options all together into one platform, that's the beautiful part. You don't have to go out and compete against Facebook, you don't have to compete against Slack, what you're doing is, you're providing an overall kind of an umbrella to be able to have a messaging system, to use all of those. And if you like Facebook Messenger, which I know you do, and I like Text, we can receive the same type of information, polls and all those other types of whatever they're throwing out to their employees, the way that we want to get them. Chad: So I think it's not competing against them, it's wrapping them all up into one and making it very simple for a company to be able to get it done. Joel: I don't know dude, I guess, that doesn't come out very clearly on their website as far as what they do. To me, it looks like it's like Slack with a little bit of different bells and whistles. Like I'm not seeing anything on the site that says, "Connect your email, texting, yada, yada, yada," on the site. You can share like articles, videos and shit like that but whatever." All right, sexy stuff. Go check out Dynamic Signal, everybody. Chad: Watch some YouTube videos [crosstalk 00:25:18] Joel: Chad says it's brilliant. StatusToday. Chad: That's scary. Joel: That's scary as hell. Chad: On the website it says, "Understand your employees, the use of data to produce insights." So you think, "Okay, that's sounds pretty cool." Well, this is how the company started. StatusToday originally set up to use AI for cyber security, specifically by analyzing a company's internal online communications and network activity. That's how the company started. They are a monitoring, they are a big brother system. And now what they're doing, which is launched in beta, the middle of last year, they've got a more comprehensive piece that is focused around employee insights to be able to focus on employee activity, rogue employees, human lapses in security, and those types of things. Chad: Much like we've seen with Amazon putting wristband monitors on employees and some people getting microchips. This is pretty creepy, right? Joel: Yeah. You essentially plug them into your Office 365 or your G Suite, and they monitor everything about your employees. They should have called this company 1984 basically, because it's so effed up. And I am so glad that I don't work for somebody because I would be fired immediately with the stupid stuff I do in the workplace. But to me, it should have been StatusToday that got 36 million and not Dynamic Signal, instead of 3.9 million like, I think. Chad: This is feed funding. This is feed funding. I think there is an opportunity for them to get a lot, tons more cash. I think you're overlooking just the simplicity of Dynamic Signal, that's okay. Joel: I feel a Firing Squad with StatusToday coming. Chad: Just yesterday, Dynamic Signal, both of them, we need both of them. Joel: I don't know. Well, maybe, but StatusToday, I usually like doing Firing Squads that I would actually like listening to, and Dynamic Signal does not get me excited but StatusToday could be pretty interesting. Chad: Yeah. It's really creepy and I can't imagine the type of information that we would get out of them, it would be... I think it would almost be like listening to a politician. Joel: Yeah. Which is not good for anybody but we're rumbling. Let's move on. .Jobs, can you believe were talking about .jobs, launching back in 07 or 08. You and I are close to them, we both know them and less people have moved on, but it was a domain, the goal was companies by IBM.jobs, Boeing.jobs etc.. And then job seekers have a easy place, quote unquote, 'to go to' when they need to look for jobs. Joel: That didn't quite work out the way they wanted, so they partnered with direct employers, who launched, you know better than I do, like millions of domains, just totally polluted the internet because the internet is such a clean happy place to me, which apparently still isn't working very well. They recently launched find.jobs, which is touting the Google API, which is funny because- Chad: Well, before we ... Don't go too far yet. I think we have to talk a little bit about what this whole .jobs things is about. We know .com, .jobs is just the top-level domain. A company owns it, Employ Media out of Cleveland and they've been doing everything they possibly can to try to leverage this top-level domain, differently than all the other ones, instead of just breaking up and selling off the different domains. What they did was, they entrusted about 40,000 different .jobs domains to another organization to be able to build search technology underneath it. Chad: To just give you an idea, if you go to today engineer.jobs or Boston.jobs or Bostonengineer.jobs, you're going to see job search on those sites. And there all specific to what you typed in. If it's engineer, obviously you're just going to find engineering jobs. Joel: Currently powered by direct employers. Chad: Some people loved it and a lot of people hated it, enough to sue us when we put it up. But the basic strategy was fairly simple, it was the flank Indeed, you really run an experiment to see if Google would trust 40,000 different domains that were relevant and they were .jobs domains, and to see if we could kill Indeed SEO . That's really what it was, because Indeed was killing it, on the SEO side of the house. 40,000 domains with jobs search underneath it versus one domain with Indeed, and obviously we know the answer to that. So Indeed won, and they did more than win. Chad: The funny part is, we see Google For Jobs is coming out now, which is totally crippling Indeed. I don't want to say crippling Indeed, it's hurting them, it's hampering their ability to actually drive free job seekers back to Indeed. That in itself also hurts anybody who's trying to have an SEO play. Again, the whole .jobs 40,000 domains that they probably have a few thousand domains now, they probably don't have 40,000 anymore. It's irrelevant now, it is a failed experiment and now, with the advent of find.jobs, which is from the makers of the .jobs top-level domain, Employ Media, they launched just a single website that is powered by, as you'd said, the Google discovery jobs API, XPL doses, whatever they call it. Chad: And that's just signaling, once again, their experiment is dead and SEO for jobs really at the end of the day, it doesn't work anymore. My great my question to you is, why the hell start up a new job board, just a single job board in the first place? Joel: I don't have a good answer for you. In their case, they have this license for this domain, they don't have to do something with it, but they paid money, I assume they're still paying money to have the license. Chad: Sell the domains. Joel: Well, if nobody is buying the domains and the initial experiment ... Well, that's the thing, people bought the domains for potential SEO purposes, so if SEO is like a really tough game right now, then what's the benefit of that as opposed to like .io, I was kidding, but it doesn't really matter. In their case, if no one's buying the domains, if no one's going to the job search sites that they currently have all over the internet, they are not making money there, they've got to look like, "Okay, well, how do we make money?" Joel: And it's like, "Well, let's just have one central domain, let's pull in Jobs2Careers, or Zip Recruiter, or where ever they're getting their jobs and at least we'll get paid on the clicks, the applicants that we're sending, at least we're getting some money for it. I don't think the direct employers experiment, outside of a few banner ads, was all that beneficial to anybody. In their case, they're starting a job board because they're sort of out of options and they're still paying money and trying to make this thing work. Joel: Now, in the case of our buddies at Hire-Maturity, to me that's a total waste of money and time. Like just a total throw money in a garbage bin and put gas on it and throw it on fire because that's what you're doing. To answer your question, there is really no good reason unless you are in health care or tech, maybe sales, that you would ever have a new launching of a job board. Chad: But now a general job board. Joel: No. And hiring old people is not niche enough. I'm sorry. Chad: Yeah, we've gone past that. Here is the last question. We're talking about and this is one of the things that I am trying to drive in to companies' heads today, is that they're looking to buy new domains for maybe job sites, or career sites, or trying to just do something special because they think it's cool. You're an SEO guy, and we just talked about how SEO pretty much is dead when it comes for jobs. What's the worth of going out and buying a brand spanking new domain versus anchoring onto your corporate domain, that's probably more than likely a dot com, that has so much trust in history. Would you do that yourself? Joel: No. Especially if you're these big companies that are doing this and your Boeing or Hewlett Packard, or whoever. We're talking about domains that have been 20 plus years online, the trust, just the power of that domain to go and start a new one is just really stupid, just throw a sub folder on that and be boeing.com/jobs, that's going to be highly more beneficial than Boeing.jobs. Chad: Which means you're going to rank better on non-jobs content, career content, other content that might be relevant, so you still might not rank incredibly high on the job side the house because the Google for jobs is going to take a lot of that above the fold organic. Joel: The thing is .com, .io, .net, none of that probably plays very much impact in to where you land on search results. Search results are going to be based on the age of the domain, the links that are coming in, the quality of those links, the people going to the site from search engines, how long do they stay on the site, do they bounce back to Google. What kind of social signals are we seeing on that site. You're just way better off leveraging an asset that's been around forever and already has tons of links, and tons of trust, and tons of brand awareness, than you are just starting anything new or whether it's .jobs or .net or dot whatever. Chad: It doesn't matter, don't do it. Joel: Don't do it. And the SEO play is the content out side of jobs. Like if you want to search traffic, you're going to have to create content and not just rely on jobs. Anyway, we're getting off on a total tangent, but yes, they're going to have a really hard time having find.jobs show up on search results. They're going to have to figure out a different way to market this thing if they're going to make it work. Chad: Yeah. This is not a bad conversation because on two sides, you've got a bunch of companies that are out there, I've had people come up and actually ask me if they should start a new job board, I'm like, "Hell no." It makes no sense, especially on the general side of the house. But also companies asking, "Hey, do you think we should go on and buy a new domain just for our career sites?" Hell no. We've learned so much. I think from the vendors stand point and from the town acquisition standpoint, it's important to understand the value and the worth of domain that your company has put a lot of time and Google has a lot of trust in. Joel: And if you are going to buy a domain, don't buy gocanvas.io. We have learned that, We have learned that. Chad: We love you Aman. So bad. So bad. Joel: Well, there's a lot of upheaval in the political landscape of America, and I think that not only America but some vendors are in need for a change, which brings us to our latest sponsor. Announcer: The following message was paid for by the campaign to elect the Chad and Cheese as co-presidents of Monster. Chad: Hi, my name is Chad Sowash. Joel: And I'm Joel Cheesman. You know us as ... Chad: The Chad ... Joel: And Cheese Podcast at chadcheese.com. Chad: We are aware Monster's new owners have lopped of the heads of old Monster leadership and have focused on filling those positions with fresh ideas and new, proven leaders which is why ... Joel: Let 'em eat cake! Get it? Joel: What? Lopped off heads, Marie Antoinette ... Oh, come on, man! Chad: Which is why the Chad and Cheese are officially running for co-president of Monster. Joel: The Chad and Cheese understand the current vulnerability of Indeed and a market that is crying out of a new platform, for and of the people. Chad: Really? The baby sound effect? Again? Joel: You know it's my favorite. Chad: Yeah, you do love that damn thing. Joel: The Chad and Cheese pledge to build and drive cost effective recruitment options through a new Monster vision. Chad: Yes, and the Chad and Cheese also want to answer your long-standing questions like, Whatever happened to Monster Networking? Chief Monster? Jobr? HotJobs? Goziak? Job Pilot? TalentBin? Trovix? Tickle? And that blue-collar thingy. What was that called? Joel: I can't remember. Chad: The Chad and Cheese promise to get you, the people, answers. And we also promise not to make bone-headed decisions like buying Tickle instead of LinkedIn. Yeah, that actually happened. Joel: Chad and I are asking for your support in our bid to co-president Monster. Chad: Vote for the Chad and Cheese for co-president of Monster because you deserve a new Monster, and we don't mean that purple, Bugs Bunny cartoon rip-off thing either. Joel: It's a new day. Chad: And you deserve a new Monster. And you'll get one with the Chad ... Joel: And Cheese as co-presidents of Monster. Announcer: This ad was approved by The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Look, there is literally no way in hell these guys are getting this gig, but they have a pretty amazing podcast, honestly. Visit ChadCheese.com. Paid for by The campaign of The Chad and Cheese for Co-President of Monster. Joel: Nice. Chad: She cracks me up. Joel: All right. Let's end this on a humorous note, which is probably how we should always do this. Massachusetts trolley driver is now guilty of paying a buddy, I guess, two grand to wear a Halloween mask and attack him at work, which I guess is driving the trolley, so he can receive workers comp and disability insurance. Now, his folly was, he gave the guy like one of those plastic pumpkin, another thingies that you put your candy in. And I guess his fingerprints all over this plastic pumpkin thingy. So the cops kind of caught onto him and he's in trouble. Joel: But apparently, if you read the story, he took a beating, like this guy, his buddy, beat the hell out of him and he's going to go to jail for it. It's a pretty funny tragedy there in Beantown. Chad: Darwin Awards, almost Darwin Awards, it's like it's one of those things that you tell your buddy, "Hey, you got to make it look real, so you got to put some bruises on me." In many, he like ruptures a kidney or something like that. That's what he deserves. Joel: I want to know, they didn't really report what the Halloween mask was, so I'm trying to figure out, was it like the Scream mask from Scream, was it maybe a hockey mask from Jason, what are some of your favorite ghosts Halloween mask? Chad: Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. Joel: That's not a mask. Chad: It would be a mask. Joel: Beetlejuice is not a mask and no one's getting beaten down by Beetlejuice. Chad: That would be funny as hell though. somebody get beat down by Beetlejuice, oh damn. Joel: Dear God. You'd beat me up for free, I wouldn't have to pay you for that? Chad: Oh, yeah, I'm here for you. I'm a friend. Joel: All right. On that note, I think we're done. What about you? Chad: I'm out, dude. I need a beer. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and CheesePodcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes or Google, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make this all possible. For more visit Chadcheese.com. Oh, and you're welcome. #HireMaturity #Adecco #Vettery #Findjobs #StatusToday #DynamicSignal #WorkHere

The Chad and Cheese listeners know that Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning has taken center stage as the bright and shiny objects of the recruitment industry over the last year, but what about the entrance of ​Blockchain and Cryptocurrency? What the Hell does Blockchain and Cryptocurrency have to do with RECRUITING? We haven't a damned clue which is why we have Jeff Tennery the CEO of Moonlighting.com is on the podcast to answer questions like: - Why do we need Blockchain Recruiting? - What could cryptocurrency mean to the world talent economy? - What the Hell is a Moonbit? - and.... Is Moonlighting backed by Bruce Willis? Don't forget this edu-tainment is made possible by the gang over at Nexxt and in the spirit of saving some currency (in dollars) – YOU can receive 25% off your first Text2Hire campaign by visiting nexxt.com/chadandcheese25. You are recruiting with text messages... Aren't you?!? PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Chad: This is, the Chad and Cheese podcast brought to you in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit Tatech.org. Announer: Hide your kids, lock your doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Alright everybody. This is Joel Cheesman, Chad and Cheese show, welcome. Today we have a really special, cool show that Chad and I are super psyched about. We have Jeff ... Chad: So psyched. Joel: We have Jeff Tennery of Moonlighting on the show. Jeff, welcome. Jeff Tennery: Great to be here. Joel: Great to have you. Look everybody if you're in the dark as much as Chad and I are about crypto whatever, ICO's, block chain, and what that means to employment. This is your show. We're gonna talk to Jeff, who's doing a lot of things around this space and get down to the bottom of what it means and is it really as much bullshit as Chad and I think. Jeff Tennery: There you go. Joel: It's commercial time. Chad: Okay Joel, quick question. What happens when your phone vibrates or your text alert goes off? Joel: Dude I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah I know. I call it Pavlovian dog reflex to text messaging. Joel: Yeah, that's probably why text messaging has a fricking 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: Crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why the Chad and Cheese podcast love Text to Hire from Nexxt. Joel: Love it. Chad: Yeah that's right. Next with the double X, not the triple X. Joel: So if you're in talent acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI, that stands for return on investment folks, and because this is the Chad and Cheese podcast, you can try your first Text to Hire campaign for just 25% off. Chad: Wow. So how do you get this discount you're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell them Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You go to chadcheese.com and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long URL to remember, just go where you know. Chadcheese.com and Nexxt with two X's. Chad: It's showtime! Joel: Well lets hear a little bit about you and Moonlighting I guess to start off for those who don't know you. Jeff Tennery: Yeah well Moonlighting is a three, almost three and a half year old company that is focused in on helping people generate and create their own form of income. So back in 2008 my colleagues and I and co-founders, we suffered through, like many the great recession and kind of the fall out of the market and found ourselves not quite unemployed but scared at the concept of being unemployed. So it took us a few years to kind of come up with the plan and the vision, but Moonlighting's been called the Craigslist without the creepiness, which is something we always giggle at. We focused in on mobile and speed by which we can get people connected and so it's a labor of love, we're very passionate and we've grown very quickly. We have over 600,000 people signed up to be a Moonlighter on our platform here in the states. Jeff Tennery: Backed by the three largest news media companies in the US. Gannett, Tronc, and McClatchy and we're a top ten app in the app store for the past two years in the jobs' category. So we're definitely capturing people's attention and really focused in what we think is, instead of working for the man, we think you should be working for yourself and creating some form of independence, just in case, god forbid the market turns again from an employment perspective. Joel: I know Chad's champing at the bit to ask a question, but I have to make a comment that, thank god you have a solid URL, because when I found out it was actually Moonlighting.com I about fell out of my seat, cause every URL today is go blank dot IO or go blank dot CA dot UK. So I just wanna say thank you for having a simple URL that I and everyone else can figure out. Jeff Tennery: Well it took us a few years to get there. We had to raise some money and actually had to go buy that and thinking maybe that the old Bruce Willis, Sybil Shepherd show would somehow have a hold of that. It did not and so we were able to buy it, but we went through those iterations in the early days. That's sometimes the path by which you have to go. Chad: And obviously you thought it was worth it because you stepped back and you had cash available and you went after a URL that you though was gonna make sense and it was a .com. You weren't playing the IO, IA game. Awesome. Joel: Yes, thank you for that. And yes Chad is still trying to look like Bruce Willis to this day and he has a full head of hair, but he shaves it just to try to look like Bruce. Chad: I'm actually more sexy than Bruce is. Joel: A little hidden secret for the show, it's for the fans. Chad: Okay so I gotta get into this. So it was funny that you started off by saying something about not being as creepy, especially with most of us kind of like on the outside of block chain and the BIT coin and the currency side of the house, because really that are of the quote unquote feeling like the dark web, has been crazy shady with Silkroad, all the crazy shady things that have been happening with Bit coin, Bit coin foundations. How do you separate yourself from that? Because everybody automatically starts seeing ICO, oh Bit coin and they start to really attach you to things that have happened in the past. Joel: And what is an ICO? That might be a better place to start for some people. Jeff Tennery: So an ICO is short for Initial Coin Offering, used very similar to an initial public offering, which most people and investors are familiar with and it's phenomena that's taken place over the last 18 months where smaller upstart companies are leveraging block chain and they're leveraging crypto currency to be able to raise funding for their companies, projects, very similar to crowd funding or crowdsourcing. But they're also doing it where they're finding a utility that can be used. So when you create a token, it's not just a token for the sake of tokens sake, but putting it out there so you can use it within your particular use case or solution, so in this case with Moonlighting we have a very strong use case, which is using the Moonbit, which is what we're calling the Moonbit for our coin, to be able to use it to make payments or receive payments and also to be able to buy services, premium services. Jeff Tennery: So it's not unlike a lot of the gaming world when you think about a lot of the gaming that goes on, people buying digital weapons or digital coins or using currency for the Candy Crush of the world. So it's a phenomena that's given some leverage back to start ups instead of having to chase always after the venture money, which can be very challenging. Chad: So back to the original question, how do you separate yourself from the shadiness that we've seen from Bit coin and some of the other Silkroads of the world in that arena? Because again the rest of the world, we're only seeing the bad stuff thus far and not the good stuff. What are you guys doing to be able to separate yourself? Jeff Tennery: We've been around for three years, so unlike a lot of these ICO projects that are literally nothing more than PowerPoints or demonstrations of thought around a white paper, we have been around for three years so we've seen what has been working in the gig economy and what hasn't, what's been holding it back and the number one issue is trust. People don't know who they're hiring. If you think about Craigslist analogy, but even Uber, you don't know who your driver is. Yeah you're relying on maybe an $8 background check that Uber did to find the right person to drive you and the safe person to drive you. So what we're doing with Moonlighting is we've got 600,000 people signed up, so a very rich profile data. Jeff Tennery: That data's great, but it's all user generated by the folks that have signed up and so we believe moving those profiles onto the block chain, makes it more authentic, makes it more real, and these are things like your recommendations, your reviews, your payment, transaction history, all those things on the block chain will bring more credibility to a freelancer, make it more trusted and so we're migrating over where some of the people on our platform won't make it over. They won't cut the mustard because they may not be operating in the best fashion or don't have the best reviews, so I think what will happen, specifically with Moonlighting is the cream will rise to the top, block chain profiles will be the new norm, and then also using crypto currency to exchange payments makes a lot of sense as we look to ... We're planning to go global towards the tail end of this year in Canada, UK, and Latin America. Chad: And those are two entirely different subjects that I definitely wanna hit head on, but first the validation. The resume validation piece and also the background checks, which obviously is great for block chain or at least it seems like it is. But you said user generated and we're seeing and we've seen over the years that trying to get somebody to actually fill out a ton of information about themselves is really heard, which is why you see a ton of these organizations right now are going out to the web, they're scouring it and they're pulling data back about you to make your profile more full. Are you guys doing something like that or are you just really focused on the only data we're taking is directly from point A being the actual candidate themselves? Jeff Tennery: Yeah. Every bit of data that you see on Moonlighting today has been generated by the actual user, which plays itself wonderfully into the block chain strategy for us. So we're not screen scraping, we're not going out there and pulling profiles, we're not grabbing everything from a LinkedIn profile or Facebook Connect, everything that you see in a profile from Moonlighting has actually been generated, which is really to your point, super hard and difficult and it's something we've been very good at and I think people wanna tell their stories about how they wanna work. Chad: Yeah no question. So how do you engage them to get more rich data? Because that's the hardest part, right, is the engagement piece. Tell me more about yourself. Jeff Tennery: Yeah so we have not done anything other than ask them, and this is kind not being cute, but we have just gone to the market with a message of just trying to take back your work career and pursue your passions. What we plan to do though with the block chain, with our ICO's, when we launch the token is a big part of the use of the Moonbit will be a rewards program. So for the first time we'll be able to actually reward the users on the platform that use it the most and do the most amount of business and engage it the most. So what we're excited ... And this is very similar to an app called Kick, if you're familiar with that, a messaging app that's very popular where rewarding the actual users will be what drives the platform forward and will help us expand. Chad: Well that sounds interesting because Jobeum is doing that right now. I don't know if you're familiar with them or not. They've got the ... Jeff Tennery: There are a host of them that are out there, but again don't get fooled by, okay a company announces ICO then they're doing this thing, they're decentralizing this or they're decentralizing that. What we've done is, we've got a three year track record with true transactions, with people operating on our platform, we're not just that white paper. A lot of folks and even Dataum and some of the other ones that are out that that have conducted very successful ICO's and have great block chain projects, they don't have any customers and so what I mean by that is what I thinks unique and why we've gotten so much attention, and I'm not trying to brag, is that we have real users and real data and everything's authentic and kind of homegrown organically and I think that's what makes, what will make our platform standout more uniquely and then our bigger, grander vision is to not just keep ... Jeff Tennery: The world of keeping your data for yourself, like I think Facebook and some of those companies are gonna be under a lot of pressure because Facebook owns all the data, they control all the data, and they monetize all the data. What we plan on doing with the Moonlighting profile, the block chain profile is to make it available for our users to control where they want the profile to be and then to be compensated for that, where they do wanna share their data. So long story short, not to go down a rabbit hole, I think places like Facebook, Amazon, places where they wanna control the data and not share it, are gonna be the ones under the biggest duress, because marketplaces like Moonlighting that are on the block chain where you the user control the profile, that is where the market's heading and I think that's where the revolution of block chain really begins. Joel: Jeff, help me, if we could back to ICO's for a little bit and block chain is making more sense to me now. So sort of the catalyst for this was, a story I did for area about Connect Job, a company over in Europe I believe that has raised over a million dollars in their initial coin offering. How does that actually work when you raise money? Do people say I'll buy it for ten bucks and then they get one Moonbit and then it becomes more valuable? And then my second question is, is having an ICO similar to almost like a country having their own currency? So will I be able to have Moonbits that I get from jobs I do on the site and then can I transfer that into Bit coin or can I transfer it to my Wells Fargo account into dollars? Talk about those two sort of issues please. Jeff Tennery: Yeah, so all of these ICO's are using a platform called Ethereum and so it's kind of the second most popular crypto currency and so Ethereum was born out of what Bit coin wasn't doing. So Bit coin was used for payments, but mostly speculative trading right now, but Ethereum said, "Hey let's let other companies, let's let people build their tokens on top of our platform." So going back to your first part of the question, was everything that's created, a Moonbit that we're creating, a token that's being created is actually being done with an ERC 20 standard by which you could use Ethereum to get to that token and also back out of it, almost like a gateway. So you buy Ethereum and then turn around and buy Moonbit and then if you receive a Moonbit you can back into and Ethereum, which by the way all goes back to Fiat, which is basically the fancy word for US dollar, whatever currency of the country. Jeff Tennery: So you go back to your then second part of your question, which is, is it like a form of being within a country? The answer is absolutely for solutions like Moonlighting. It's like being on the Moonlighting platform, we have a currency, you don't have to by the way, you can still use the US dollar or the pound, the Euro, to make transactions take place, but the benefits of the token, just like when you go to Chuckie Cheese, they can let you use all of the tokens. They can let you put your quarter in there, which that makes it easier for you to walk out of there and use it elsewhere or they can get you to buy the token, because that's what's going to drive the tickets and you can go buy the crappy gifts, all of that. Jeff Tennery: So it's happening within an ecosystem and that's the way the token world will play out. Although some projects and some companies, like ours, is we're not gonna just relegate the Moonbit to just our marketplace, if there are other gig economy marketplaces that are out there that want to use it, we'll have API's available and that's again the idea of kind of giving yourself up to block chain and to the platform and let it be governed by the users and also be very open to sharing the technology, which is what makes it trusted. Chad: I appreciate you using the Chuckie Cheese example there, cause that's just helps Joel understand this more. Joel: It's my favorite restaurant, by the way. Jeff Tennery: Fine dinging and cocktails included. I have five kids by the way, guys so I've spent a lot of time there. Chad: Yeah you probably know a little bit about Chuckie Cheese. That's what Joel has to wake up to. Joel: Yeah. So can I give you $10 and buy tokens? Is that how this works? Jeff Tennery: What you'll do is you can basically go to an exchange and you could take your US dollar, you will buy Ethereum and then from Ethereum you can turn around and buy a Moonbit. Joel: And then I can use my Moonbit with anyone who accepts Ethereum? Jeff Tennery: You can use the Moonbit ... Yeah correct. If other people are using Moonbit and have accepted that, that is correct. Chad: Okay, so say I'm using other bits or other coins, what have you, if they're all backed by Ethereum there's probably some exchange rate for the Moonbit versus these other coins. Is that also kind of like the same thing? Almost like the same kind of scenario we're looking at? The US dollar versus the Euro or what have you? Jeff Tennery: And it's really crazy right now. So as we're planning for our ICO, our spreadsheets are changing by the minute, cause Ethereum's gone up, it's down, it's very volatile, so at the point when we do the ICO, that'll be the jump off point where one Moonbit will equal X Ethereum and that I won't be able to tell you till we get to the point of launching the ICO, but that's how that works is so it'll be tied back a value of Ethereum for you to be able to gauge it against the US dollar and really against other crypto currencies. You can turn around with Ethereum and buy Bit coin or Ripple or Lite Coin, all the other currencies. Chad: So what about these background check companies that are out there today? It sounds like, and I could be entirely wrong, wouldn't be the first time, that really block chain could get rid of background checks in these background check companies, cause you've got all the data. It's all legitimate data that's been checked before and you can just continue to hit that data. So is there an issue, prospectively, for background companies and some of these validation organizations that are out there? Jeff Tennery: I don't think so, cause I think the good ones that have good data, you're always gonna want good data and there's always a starting point cause remember starting from scratch ... Like we've been at this for three years and while 600,000 users is great it's still again a small fraction of the freelancers out there in the US and so I think that the background companies, the good ones, will figure out how to use block chain that then just leverage that data, make sure that it's authentic and that it's being ... What the beauty of all of this with block chain is that it's really democratizing you controlling your data, your business, whatever it may be and a background check is your data, it's what you want it to be and you can't just fudge it because over time most of these block chain marketplaces and background, anywhere, they're gonna let the real data that happens in real time, that's what gets put on the ledger, the distributed ledger and that's what basically sits there and becomes immutable, which the fancy word for saying you can't erase it, you can't get rid of it. And I think that that's where ... Jeff Tennery: No I wouldn't say a background company at all has a very legitimate opportunity and should be moving to block chain just to take that data, they'll actually have a jump start on it. It's like, I think it's be interesting not to go back and make this a Facebook conversation or an Amazon conversation, but I think the bigger companies are the ones that ... That's why banks are so threatened and countries are being threatened. Large institutions where they have a control from a central point, are going to be disrupted and how they embrace this is going to be very interesting. Joel: Jeff, how would you explain block chain to a sixth grader? Jeff Tennery: How would I explain it to a sixth grader, block chain? I would describe it as, there's a ledger that has kind of your pros and cons, your minuses, your negatives and your positives and everything that happens from a coding perspective gets put on to this, making sure that it's balanced, that things net out to where the positive and the negative equal net zero. So what I would tell a sixth grader it's code, and most sixth graders by the way know far more about coding then, I'm a 49 year old entrepreneur, than myself or perhaps you gentlemen, but the sixth grader understands coding and IT and understand that it's basically code that you can't change once it's written. It becomes something that you have to ... The golden rule of you do what you say, you say what you do and it becomes something that, once you put it out there, something you gotta honor and there's a thing called loyalty and honor to what is being written and done. Jeff Tennery: So I think that's how I would at least begin the conversation. From there the distributive part, I think is a little bit more complex for anyone even sixth graders to ... Basically if somebody wants to hack, which most sixth graders understand what hacking is, someone wants to hack the block chain, it's very difficult to do it because basically you're messing with everybody on the block chain and so if you try to break the block chain it kind of immediately breaks so nothing can happen. I shouldn't say it breaks, but it stops so you can't do anything because everything's distributed so that if you try to steal from one person, you're trying to really steal from many. Probably a horrible analogy on all parts, but that's how I would try to break it down for a sixth grader. Joel: So I understand how it works with money a little bit. So the way it was explained to me if today, if I wanna give Chad $100 through my Chase bank account, it would go to Chase and then Chase would basically give it to Chad. Whereas today if I wanted to give Chad 100 Bit coin or whatever, I would basically tell the block chain, which is a large group of people keeping various ledgers and I would say, "I'm giving Chad 100 Bit coin." And then they would all basically take note of that and it would be record for everybody. There wouldn't be a central sort of monolithic thing kind of keeping the records of all that stuff. Would that be sort of correct and if it is, how does this pertain to my resume or searching for a job, because that's not necessarily money driven, it's data driven, or identity driven? Jeff Tennery: I would say it's not even, to take the money piece aside as you just did, it's rules driven. So you still need to, regardless whether it's your resume, or a picture, like Kodak's doing their ICO now, which is very interesting, but yeah so whatever it is you're putting on the block chain, which by the way you can't store much on the block chain today from a technology perspective. It's very limited. It's why Bit coin's so slow and all these crypto currencies are so slow. But it's rules driven, so what I would say is kind of going back to your sixth grade analogy, what are the rules of engagement and whatever you are using that happens to be engaging for using block chain technology. So could be your school grades. So going back to your sixth grader, like if your school grades, once those grades go in, the principal or school can't change it, it's gotta be whatever the rules are written and the way you input grades. Chad: And it's motivation too right? There's a ton of validation behind this, correct? Jeff Tennery: Well it's validated ... I mean listen, there's gonna be pirate block chain. Everybody's making out block chain like it's gonna be the panacea for everything, but there'll be pirate ones and what I mean by pirates, so there's ones where the rules are just written to be disingenuous and other things of that nature, so really what it is at the end of the day, it's about making it non-changeable. And I think that's what the rules ... So when you're looking at different applications, that's why it's blowing people's minds, because it's not just about the financial markets or how to do financial transactions, it's about data and it's also just about rule, it's about the rules. It's almost the old if then. If you're writing code, it's like if you say that this is the case, then this happens and there's no subjectivity to it. Chad: There's a ton of computing power that goes into this, right? Because validation and being able to actually go through validation for at least, and again this is on the currency side, it might be different on the recruiting side, but crypto money itself takes up almost as much power as the country of Greece. It's like 40 terawatts per hour. There's so much power that is taken because of all the validation that needs to happen and it doesn't seem like it's efficient, by any means right now. Jeff Tennery: That's why the crypto market as a whole just even in buying and trading now is so difficult and it's just ... Like remember the dial up, go back to your dial up days and how long you would wait sometimes because there was a flood of people trying to get on the internet. Remember your ugly AOL disc driven days of signing on to AOL, that would be good analogy. So I do think those things work out in the wash as technology gets better. In fact, you're seeing I think rivals to Bit coin of people trying to come up with a speed solution, but I think that's the computing power, everything you're saying is no different when you're thinking about telephony. I know I came up through the wireless business in my past where you think about how many phone calls could have been made in the early 80's when mobile was coming. It wasn't that much capacity and then capacity kind of grew with demand. I think you'll see the same thing happen with block chain. Chad: So really and what you're saying is, block chain or at least the internet when we first started off, not everybody was really bought into the internet. They thought, yeah this things gonna kind of go away, it's kind of shady, I don't know if I wanna get on this, but we saw what it did with our lives. Because it made our lives easier, we're able to access more information quickly, what you're saying is, this is really just the infancy of block chain and of crypto currency and it should be something that we're looking forward to in the future. Jeff Tennery: Absolutely. And I think, I don't know if you followed the regulatory climates around doing ICO's, obviously you mentioned it earlier in the discussion, most ICO's have been set up for failure, poorly represented, overstating what the benefits of an ICO are, and so the regulatory commissions like the FCC and the CFDC are now starting to weigh in and even their notes last ... There was a Senate hearing last week, their notes last week were very encouraging because they're not just coming in like China and saying we're gonna ban all these ICO's, we're gonna ban all these crypto currencies, they're using a term called Do No Harm, which is what was used in the early internet days, which was ... Jeff Tennery: I think the government realizes that this is a special technology and it's really about block chain and while there's a bunch of bad actors and apples out there that are ruining it for the bunch, that the technologies and what's happening is too important, especially to this next generation, the millennial generation and the Gen Z generation where this is gonna be the new norm for them. This is not ... Asking them whether Bit coin is worth $10,000 or worth zero or taking some of the statements that have been made by like Morgan Stanley's CEO and other such where people are making absolute comments about it, it's way too early, I do think that all of this means, what this means for people out there listening, is that crypto currency isn't going anywhere, not is block chain technology and really, now it's just a matter of siphoning through all the mayhem, which I think will become more and more clear by each quarter. Joel: Jeff, I'll end my questions on this and you mentioned crypto's not going anywhere, block chain's not going anywhere, where is it gonna be in five years though? Will I be able to go into Target and buy paper towels with my Bit coin? Are we ten years, 20 years from that? Give me some context around where you think crypto currency's will be in say five years from now? Jeff Tennery: I think it won't take five years to do what you just described and I'm not trying to make this to be like I'm some sage, but people are already, millennials are already buying and exchanging services and goods right now using Bit coin. It's just the Visas, the Master cards, the Amex's haven't caught up. Heck you're seeing some of the banks actually blocking your ability to use coin base today, to buy using your credit card, that's a lot of paranoia because they don't know what's taking place. There is some bad data associated with it, but the idea of you being able to use crypto currency to do everything is really gonna be no different than ... What do you care whether it says Visa or MasterCard or Amex on your card? Really when you think about it, when you go to the store. Chad: And this goes back to how you're looking to pay freelancers though right? With the Bit coin, with the Moonbit, right? Is that part of the whole schema, is that look companies come on, you can be a freelancer and go work for somebody and then the exchange happens on the actual app itself and the currency is the Moonbit. Jeff Tennery: It is, but what will happen with the Moonbit too, is you can quickly move the Moonbit into Ethereum and then quickly turn that into Bit coin, Bit coin cash, whatever you want it to be and that's the speed of currency and the movement of it and that's gonna be the complexity that takes place where somebody could literally be paying you one day in a Moonbit and you could determine whether or not that's worth cutting the lawn or designing a website and you can figure out whether that's something you wanna buy and hold, so it's this mixture of the utility of payments mixed with something that could value you could trade on. The point I always make too, kind of people who are ... Jeff Tennery: Millennials aren't too keen to go to the stock market and buy Disney stock or Verizon stock or AT&T stock, largely because it's slow and arduous and millennials are for the most part inpatient. They're multi-taskers, ready to move forward. No hey listen, I've got a lot of millennials at home as well, but it's the idea that you the user have this flexibility in how you earn and receive money in crypto and then what could be exponential growth and this is by the way exponential loss. Jeff Tennery: I don't make this out to be everything's up and to the right, is that you're giving people the power to come in and that's why this ICO market's so hot, is people can come in and look at these opportunities as being at the ground floor of a Facebook, of a Google, and by the way by no means as I saying that about Moonlighting, I'm saying that that's the way it's viewed by millennials who look at those projects and opportunities because it's decentralized and it's more fair, which is most millennials have been taught and brought up in that fashion of everything needs to be fair, that that's how they're gonna drive this forward and that's what the power of block chain will be in the next five years as they'll be using it at Whole Foods to buy groceries as much as they are to go to the movies or do anything else that's out in the retail world. Joel: And remember kids, for every Amazon there was 100 pets.com. Jeff Tennery: That's right. Amen. And that is exactly why this ICO market is so confusing to folks because I think people want to get in just like it was in the heat of the IPO markets in the 90's, the late 90's, is everybody wanted and they just were buying stock based on whether they had a cool URL like that. My advice to everyone is, look at the right projects, we're doing a very compliant ICO. We're working with Cooley, one of the top law firms in the US. We're taking our time, we're doing it right, we're doing actually the presale right now that we're letting people get in, get bonuses and tokens to get in early and so we're being thoughtful, we're trying to educate people along the way and make sure that people follow. And so is the SCC and the regulators, they just want people to be truthful and honest and transparent, all the problems you've seen regulatory wise are companies that mis-stepped by promising future returns that they could never ever promise, not sharing their financials, all the things that you just can't do if you want to be a credible company. Joel: So I just thought of another question Chad, is that okay. Chad: Yeah, hit it. Joel: Will VC's be a thing of the past and will more ... Will companies more and more raise money through ICO's or is that just sort of a novelty and the VC firms don't have to worry? Jeff Tennery: I think that the good VC's right now have already quietly made this move and they have to be careful cause they have all the limited partners. No different than I think there's a lot of publicly traded companies that are making moves but don't wanna alarm the public and don't wanna alarm their shareholders because it's so new and they're still getting their hands around it. So I think for sure VC's are just going to continue and their very nimble and their very agile, but you'll just see them start to move and it's like anything else, they're move a percentage of their portfolio into these opportunities. We're talking with some of the largest ones and most renowned ones that are out there that are actually quietly doing this because they don't want to tell people they're into it yet. Joel: So I might have asked my question incorrectly. So if you're a startup today would you rather raise money through an ICO or would you rather raise money the traditional way? Jeff Tennery: I think the answer is, not to be cute, a little bit of both, but I think what the ICO market has done, is that it now gives some leverage back to the startup because when you raise token, you sell tokens, it's a non-dilutive events. It's actually treated as if it's a revenue event or a big sale. And so you don't have the delusion. So what that does is now companies like mine could go to that market instead of going and essentially getting bent over by a venture capital firm that's looking to take a big chunk of your business. We've raised six and a half million dollars through traditional means over the last three years. Jeff Tennery: So we've gone that path, we have institutional investors, we have strategic investors and that's great, but you hit a point in time where you don't wanna dilute yourself out of the business and so the ICO market, I think for sure gives power back to the entrepreneur or the startup and gives them an alternative, which is why VC's are taking notice. If you look at the inverse of last year in 2017, you could see where the ICO market blossomed and kind of exploded and you see VC investment has come down and I think what VC's are doing this year is they're regrouping, again they're trying to find the best projects and the best companies and I think you'll see that all settle out where you need a little bit of both. Jeff Tennery: I don't know if you know this about crypto currency, but when you do an ICO you pick a finite amount of money that you put out there. So you put a fine out, so we're targeting a $25 million dollar token sale. So the thing about block chain, I can't decide to make it 26 or 27 million or 30 or 50, once we print, we mint those tokens, it's finite, so that's the beauty of not being like the governments of the world that are printing money and then deluding the value of that money. So I think that's something to keep into mind as entrepreneurs have to do what they say, say what they do, do what they do, they pick an amount that they think is fair, but if I need more money a year or two from now, which as we continue to scale venture capital will be a wonderful opportunity to do that. Joel: Fascinating stuff and clearly the tip of the iceberg on this issue that we will continue to watch closely, I'm sure. Jeff Tennery: Yeah. Joel: Jeff, thanks for your time. If I wanna learn more about Moonlighting or your ICO, where should I go? Jeff Tennery: Yeah well we have, as we talked about earlier, Moonlighting.com is our operating website. We're a top ten app in the app stores and then we have a site set up specifically for people that are interested in crypto currency and block chain, it's ICO.moonlighting.com. Joel: Good enough. Chad: So easy. One of the easiest URL's I think we've talked about. Joel: Yeah, you need to put like a go or ask or get [crosstalk 00:36:33]. Jeff Tennery: We do have gomoonlighting.com, we just kind of not using it. We used it earlier in the early days. Joel: Jeff, seriously thank you man and we appreciate your time. Jeff Tennery: Thanks for having me. Best of luck. Chad: Thanks Jeff. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Joel: Okay before we go, remember when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing? Yeah you know all about reflexes and then I brilliantly tied it to text messages 97% open rate then I elegantly tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh Chad, I can be elegant. Can't I? Chad: Whatever man. I know it's redundant, you already heard about Text to Hire, but you're still not using Text to Hire from Nexxt. Joel: What? Chad: I know man. Joel: Come on man. Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again ... Joel: This is all by elegant design. Chad: ... it's all about Text to Hire and it's all about Nexxt. Joel: And elegant design. So go to Chadcheese.com, click on the Nexxt logo and get 25%, yeah I said 25% off your first Text to Hire campaign. Engage better, use Text to Hire from Nexxt. Two X's. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Itunes or Google so you don't miss a single show and be sure to check out our sponsors, because they make this all possible. For more visit Chadcheese.com. Oh and you're welcome. Chad: Thanks to our partners at TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Remember to visit Tatech.org #Blockchain #Cryptocurrency #Moonlighting #JeffTennery #TATech #Nexxt #ICO #Moonbit

CandidateID is WAKING THE DEAD in your ATS resume database and then nurturing those newly awaken candidates with engagement and scoring. Companies like Crowded (Firing Squad alumni), Lever and ConveyIQ are getting noticed for taking the best strategies in marketing and bringing them to recruitment. Will CandidateID be the newest name in this strategic category? Candidate.ID is taking on this challenge to solve the problem of keeping candidates engaged and warm when a new opportunity arises instead of starting all over again to attract new talent. The Chad and Cheese put the company's CEO and co-founder Adam Gordon through the wringer to see if his company has the mettle to thrive in this new, competitive landscape. Will he get the gun? Gotta listen to find out. And be sure to checkout, exclusive sponsor of the show. Jobs2Careers.com - Jobs 2 Awesome is more like it! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Announcer: Like Shark Tank, then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest and baddest start-ups through the gauntlet to see if they got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids. The Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: What's up, kids? Joel Cheeseman here of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Welcome to Firing Squad. In our long tradition of having people with much better accents and probably a lot smarter than us, today we're going to be talking to Adam Gordon from Glasgow, Scotland, from CandidateID. Adam, how are you? Adam: Great. Thank you very much for having me on the show. Joel: Assuming your at happy hour at this hour in Glasgow, so have a drink or two on us. The show's a lot better if you're a little bit tipsy, I promise. Chad: Seriously, when is happy hour in Dublin? Isn't it like a 24 hour clock? Adam: It is, it is. Glasgow is better though. There are pubs, which are open 24 hours. Joel: So Chad and I are going to Dublin, which I assume you've been? Adam: Yes. Joel: Any recommendations for us on beer or pubs? Adam: Anywhere in Temple Park. That's where you want to be. That's the very center of Dublin. For the live music and cool people. Chad: Excellent. Joel: That's all you've got? A city as big as Dublin and you give us one pub? Adam: No, no, no. The area, the whole area is called Temple Park. And once a little known fact, Guinness is great but look out of Beamish. Beamish is bad-ass. Chad: There we go. Joel: That's what I'm looking for. Chad: Yes. Beamish. Joel: Thank you. And the show is over. Thank you very much. Chad: Okay, Joel. Before get into Firing Squad, I have one quick question. Joel: Yeah? Chad: Would you say that most companies find it hard to attract the right candidates to apply for their jobs? Joel: Well, Jobs2Careers certainly thought so. That's why they created their new talent attraction platform, ODT. Yeah, you know me. Chad: Dude, that's OPP. This is ODT, which stands for On Demand Talent, where data driven talent attraction is made easy. The On Demand Talent platform enables recruiters to reach the right talent at the right time at the right price. Joel: And the best part? Chad: What? Joel: You only pay for what Jobs2Careers delivers. Chad: No. Joel: So if you're attracting the wrong candidates or you feel like you're on a recruiting hamster wheel, just go to go.j2c.com/cc and learn how On Demand Talent or ODT, yeah you know me, can get you better candidates for less money. Chad: I'd say you just got chadcheese.com. Click on the Jobs2Careers logo there and it's just that simple. Joel: It is simple. Arm me with harmony. Chad: It's showtime. Joel: Chad, why don't you read the listeners the rules of the Firing Squad? Chad: Okay, for all those listeners who haven't heard a Firing Squad, shame on you, first and foremost. But, here we go. Okay, Adam. You will have two minutes to pitch CandidateID. At the end of the two minutes, you will hear this bell. Then Joel and I are going to hit you with some rapid fire Q&A. If your answers aren't concise, Joel's going to hit you with bell or he he's going to hit you with the crickets. That just mean you need to tighten up your game and we need to get some quick and easy answers out of you. At the end of Q&A, you'll either have big applause, which means you kicked ass, a golf clap, means that you got some work to do And the last but not least, you don't want to face the Firing Squad. That means your shit is bad and it needs to go back to the drawing board. So that's Firing Squad. It's time to buckle up and pitch. Okay, Joel, start that pitch timer. Joel: Adam, are you ready? Adam: I'm ready. Joel: Here we go. Adam: So when I started in recruitment in 1999, candidates couldn't access much information about opportunities or employers. So they needed to talk to recruiters to guide them through the education and consideration phases of their decision-making. Today, we have an abundance of information online. Candidates can become aware of an employer through an advert or a LinkedIn post. They can educate on a career site and they can more deeply consider, by reviewing the hiring manager's Facebook page, the company's Glassdoor reviews, and they can practically taste the coffee served, that's an employer, before deciding whether or not to talk to the recruiter. So, candidates are in control and they're making themselves invisible. Meanwhile, talent acquisition teams are being told to find and hire everyone in record time, but 80% of the total addressable market according to LinkedIn are not interest. So how do employers adapt? CandidateID is a talent pipeline software for the age of the candidate. It allows employers to distribute content to potential candidates, multi-channel, multi-format, and it tracks and scores their interactions on email, text message, social media, landing pages, career sites, and more. Adam: Unlike CRM, CandidateID was built as a system of engagement so the two main benefits are that recruiters can reduce time to short list by 60% because they can filter their candidates according to the engagement score. Recruitment marketers can serve up a personalized, nurtured experience at scale and much better measure the effectiveness of all their brilliant work. Chad: Damn. That was tight. Joel: All right. You had 20 seconds left. But, yeah, well done. At first I thought you had someone there with a stopwatch because you kind of sped up at the end and I kind of thought someone was saying, "Go, go, go." Adam: No, I thought I was going to get crickets. Chad: No. Joel: No, no, no, you never get crickets on the first two minutes. The crickets will come when you start droning on about whatever later in the show, probably. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You might be tight. You're a Scotsman, so it might be clean. I'll start with the first question. I'm always interested, Adam, why this idea? What was the catalyst for it? Do you have a background in recruiting or not? Give me some of the genesis of all this. Adam: So yeah, I started in recruitment in 1999. I started a research and sourcing business in 2009. In 2015, I was asking some of my teams, "What are we working on?" And we were working with a big buyer tech company. And I said, "What are you doing for them?" And she said, "We're trying to find sales people and scientists for them in Western Europe." I said, "Have we not been doing that for the last two years?" I mean, if we don't find everybody, what about the people we found six months ago and the people we found 12 months ago? It turned out that employer was simply making contact with all those people at the point we were finding them but then never going back to them three months later or six months later or nine months later. Adam: So we were always looking for net new and topping up the pipeline. What occurred to me was talent acquisition teams are always doing that. They got a dependency on what I call, an addiction to what I call the dependency triplets, which are recruitment agencies, job boards, and social media. They're constantly topping up the pipeline. They don't need to be doing that because most of them, many international employers have millions of people in their ATS. One big American pharmaceutical company told me 70% of the people we hire are already on the ATS. When we go to onboard them, they were already on the ATS. Most of them we are finding through employee referral, through direct sourcing, and through advertising. What a complete waste of time and money. Adam: I've got a background that includes recruitment, but also sales and marketing. We have, between myself and my co-founder Scot McCrae, who's a recruitment technology guy, we just realized there's certain types of technology in sales and marketing which would work so well to solve this problem. So products like Pardot and Marketo and Infusion Soft and Sales Fusion act on. Those kind of marketing automation products are designed to give sales team warm leads. A constant stream of warm leads. So they know which prospects not to pick up the phone to and which prospects to pick up the phone to today because the people have been looking at the company's pricing page and their products spec and all that sort of stuff. So the sales person phones up the prospect and the prospect goes, "Well, that's a coincidence because I was just looking at your pricing page yesterday." And the recruit, the sales person is like, "Well, yeah, I know that because I've been stalking you online." But basically, that's exactly how it works and it's precisely the same as we ... You know, the way we go about buying products and services or other high-consideration things like a house or a car or a wife, is exactly the same way we go about making career decisions. So the parallel is just identical and that's where we came up for the idea for CandidateID. Chad: Here's the thing, Adam. Here's the thing. We're talking about many different silos that are kind of blended together very nicely. But the thing that your whole ... I've read the Wake the Dead white paper that you guys pulled together. I don't believe you guys have enough emphasis on that. You're 100% right. The money that's being spent, we'll go over that here in a few minutes, is huge on the job sites, media, referrals, so on and so forth. But a big question for you. Do you know the percentage of candidates that are hired from the applicant tracking system resume database through your current clients? What is that current percentage. Adam: At the point where a customer becomes a CandidateID user, it may well be that the percentage is zero. They're not hiring anybody because their applicant tracking system is just not searchable. And even if it is searchable. Let's say a company's a pharmaceutical business, has regulatory affairs manager and they're looking for somebody in London. They'll go onto their ATS. They'll filter regulatory affairs managers, bring up 2000. Who do they pick up the phone to? Do they do it A-Z? Do they send them all one email. Which, it's kind of spammy for most people because they're not in the market. So, the answer is zero percent. We've got a couple of customers who are a year down the line with CandidateID, because we only launched in January 2017. Adam: I haven't gotten any data for them around what proportion they're now able to say their hiring from their own database. But what I can say is that they're getting to shortlist 60% faster. And they're getting to shortlist 60% faster because they're not picking up the phone to people and cold calling them without knowing whether they might be interested or not. Because they're able to track exactly what are they looking at. That gives them the insight that tells them who to pick up the phone to. Who are the hot leads today, in real time? So I've got to be honest, I can't answer that exact question. But what I can tell you is that the 60% reduction in time to shortlist is the big thing that our customers are highlighting as the main benefit they're getting from CandidateID. Chad: Got you. So, job sites, media, and referrals are the top three, but what companies are doing is they're really just sending the same people back into their applicant track. Are they buying those candidates over and over and over, without using their applicant tracking? Adam: That's it. I mean, that's it. That's exactly what they're doing. I said last year a couple of times that I think recruiters are addicted to heroin and some people didn't like that analogy. So I no longer say that. They're addicted to job boards, social media, employee referral. And they're addicted to anything else which will help them find a whole lot of net new talent. But that net new talent's probably already on the ATS. Our mission is for an employer's database to become the first place that they go and that they're able to get to short list by using their own database. It's the exception that they need to go and do other things. Chad: Well, tell us, real quick, tell us how the Wake the Dead process actually works within an applicant tracking system. Because I think most companies would be incredibly interested in understanding how they can take this graveyard of candidates and turn them into live, walking, engaged candidates. How does that process start? How do you start with it and how do you keep them engaged? How do you nurture them? Adam: We love this, we love this sort of Waking the Dead analogy because recruiters are always talking about, "My database is dead. The information in it's all stale. I can't really use it, even if I can search it." So the concept of waking the dead is taking all of that stale data and running it through CandidateID for an initial probably six week kind of nurture period. By the end of which, you're going to know which email addresses are dead, which candidate records should be taken off the system. You can do some progressive profiling with people to find out more information about them by getting them to give you information. To access this white paper that will help you get ahead in your career, what's your current salary banding, or what's your likelihood of making a job move in the next six months. Chad: So this information that you're sending to the candidates to keep them engaged, is that what I'm hearing? For actual company information that's already available on their website? What is this information that we're talking about? Adam: No, not necessarily. And that's a really important point. Using CandidateID, you get to understand about individuals at scale. You get to understand which channels do they prefer, which content formats do they prefer, which content subjects do they prefer. And what we've got up to date is a situation where any organization that's doing candidate nurture, typically, they're just sending the same email to everybody. It's probably just job alerts. So that's not really nurture. What you need to be able to understand is, you need to be able to understand that Joel likes content about skills sent through email in a video format. Whereas, Chad like content about industry insights sent through WhatsApp and in an infographic format. If you can really get a sense of what does each individual prefer based on their behavior and you can track and score that behavior, then that's how you can really nurture people at scale and in the way that they prefer to receive that content. If you get that right, you're going to get more people coming through the funnel from being effectively cold right through to lining up outside your office- Chad: Well, Joel likes chocolate cake, just so that you know. Go ahead, Joel. Joel: Chocolate cake and naps. And by the way listeners, if you're hearing Adam's accent and the word heroin, I want to let you know this is not the Trainspotting podcast. This is still Chad and Cheese. Adam, there are a lot of competitors out there. Just ones that we've talked about on our show, ConveyIQ, Crowded, et cetera. I mean, to say that you're the HubSpot for recruiting, you mentioned Pardo and a few others that are marketing platforms. It's sort of becoming the norm. So how do you sell yourself differently from those guys and why would I pick you over those competitors? Adam: So the reason that I don't use HubSpot is because HubSpot wasn't actually built as a marketing automation product. It was built as an inbound marketing product. That's a different thing. So something like [Clinch 00:16:55] would be more equivalent to HubSpot. And that's great for the real high volume areas like, I don't know, restaurant companies, hospitality companies, construction businesses, and those types of organizations. But the reason that I made the comparison with something like Pardo is because that's much, much more about the kind of nurture through the funnel, if you like. It's much more about the relationship building and the real, the technology that's really able to understand more about people. The ones that you mentioned, I'm not completely familiar with. But the organizations who claim to be able to do the same kinds of things. They call themselves recruitment marketing products or something like that. Really, they're CRM. They're recruitment CRM. CRM is a system of record. It's primary purpose is enabling internal workflow and storing information. Whereas CandidateID has been built as a system of engagement. It really is built just to do one specific thing and that is bring people through the funnel. It's not lika a half-ass bolt on, which is basically just an email ... a glorified Mail Chimp. Adam: Now the big difference is, is what CandidateID is tracking is candidates' interactions across a whole load of different online assets that a recruitment CRM doesn't track. So recruitment CRM will track an email open and a link clink. And then it will track activity around a career site. What it's not able to track is does the person go to the hiring manager's Facebook page? Does the person go to the company's Glassdoor or the Muse or all sorts of other online assets. So CandidateID's tracking far, far wider than incumbent recruitment technologies. As a result, it's able to give a much, much deeper and richer insight into the individual so that you can score them. It's not a shallow score. It's much, much more- Chad: Tell us what that score is. So the score's actually an engagement score. It's not a skills test, anything like that. Am I correct on that? It's an engagement score, how much they have engaged with certain content or they researched or what have you? Tell me a little bit more about the candidate scoring piece. Adam: We believe it's very important to identify suitable candidates based on their motivation first and skill set second. If you identify people based on a skill set, 80% of those people you find are not in the market. They're not going to be responding to your LinkedIn message or your telephone call, because they're not ready for a conversation. If you can identify people based on their motivation to want to work for your organization first, then assess them according to fit, you're going to get to shortlist 60% faster. Now, of course, what you don't want to do is use CandidateID to nurture the plumber who applied for a job as an economist. Or the sales person who applied for a job as a scientist. They're not people that you want to be nurturing. What you want to do is bring in the total addressable market of people who you would be interested in interviewing now or in the future. Adam: A simple example would be, I'm head of recruitment at KPMG. I want every single person working at PWC, Deloitte and EY in my system of engagement. I want to be nurturing all these people, tracking them, scoring them, so that I can see which of these people are going to be ready for a conversation about working with me at KPMG. That's utopia. Utopia is that you're tracking every single person that you might want to hire now or in the future. Based on who they work for and what their current job title is, that I believe is the first cut of is this person going to be somebody we should be nurturing. So then you then filter them according to their engagement score. You probably want to interview anybody that works for one of those organizations. Assessing people or finding people based on fit first is going to mean that 80% of your outreach is wasted. But you don't know which 80% it is because you don't know anything about the people. So assessing them according to what they're doing is absolutely logically the first thing to do. Joel: Adam, if I'm looking at your website, and I am, I go to features and there's a whole lot of stuff you guys got going with branding and candidate experience. It sort of feels like throwing stuff up there just to have people check it off. But do you really believe those are core competencies of your product, employment branding? Adam: We got very, very specific message for anybody that's in employer branding. And that is that we can help them to track the effectiveness of every single piece of content that they put out on the Net. Ever single Tweet that they put out. Because everything is tracking. And what that means is that they can get better and better and they can measure the effectiveness of their work or the n-th degree. They can really understand not just which channels are working best but they can understand which day of the week works best, what time of the day works best. They can make a cut according to different locations. They can cut it according to different skill sets. They can really, really cut up their talent nurture in a way the becomes highly versatilized. So for those kinds of people, it really helps them prove their worth and demonstrate ROI. Joel: So from a branding standpoint, back to branding, we've been talking about engagement systems forever, whether they're quote, unquote "R and P's", whatever they might be. What you're saying is from the employment branding standpoint, and correct me if I'm wrong, this is a way to continue to engage them and then also better understand, really, the behavior and how the individual wants to see content from you? Is that what I'm hearing? Adam: Well, we're living in a world where personalization becomes more and more important. So you go on to certain websites, like Amazon for example, and it's giving you a personalized page based on your history and what it knows about you. Using the same kind of techniques, CandidateID's able to understand what content formats, what content channels, what times of the days, days of the week, what subjects that you're interested in. And this is a really important one, what subjects you're interested in, because that will determine where you are in the pipeline. So if somebody is only interested in skills or interested in industry insights, they're not ready for a conversation. Whereas, if they're starting to look at your job descriptions and things like that, they are ready for a conversation. And one of the automated aspects of CandidateID is, if Joel starts looking at job descriptions, the intensity of what Joel gets from then on, it gets ... The communication gets more frequent and it's much more about, "We need to talk. Come in for a coffee and meet people in our organization. Come to our team pizza night." It's all about the intensity, the communication goes up. Adam: Whereas if Joel is just looking at skills and that kind of thing, Joel will keep getting something once every ten days or so, but it's ... You're not a priority. So we want to keep you warm. And the key thing is, for the 80% of people who are not in the market, you need to make sure that you're not sending them job descriptions because that will piss them off. What you want to be sending them is things that will help them get ahead in their career. We know from the data from our clients' work on CandidateID that people want, even if they're not in the market, they want content which is useful, relevant, and will help them with their career. Chad: Well, I think, Joel, they're already tracking you because Adam knew about team pizza night. Adam: I knew about the chocolate. [crosstalk 00:25:51]. Joel: Bad joke, bad joke. Question about the future for you. I'm looking at your website again and the pricing page, it's in pounds, which is very Brexit. I like that. But are you looking to grow into other countries, adding more features, money raise, looking to raise more? Tell me me about the future of the company. Adam: So first of all, the UK was never using the Euro as our currency so it's not a Brexit positioning statement in any way. So that's the first thing. The second thing is to convert that to US dollars, add on about 25% more and it's US dollars. About 40% of our customers are in London. About 40% of our customers are in the USA, and about 20% are in parts of Europe and parts of Asia-Pacific. So we're already serving the world. Our customer market is what we call F600, which means Fortune 500 plus FTSE 100, which is the UK stock market, top 100. So those 600 is our customer base plus international RP organizations. So we already work with four. We have self-funded the company to-date. Our customers have helps us to fund the business as well. They have, in certain cases, they have prepaid 12 months in advance to allow us to move our product roadmap forward and they've worked in consultation with us to help us do that. Or for us to include their wishes into what we're planning to do. Adam: We're not going to be ... People have told us we need to become a CRM. We don't want to become a CRM. It's absolutely not the plan. That's what we call a red ocean and it's not something we want to be involved in. We absolutely, we will be raising investment. We're talking to three RPO companies today about investing in CandidateID. The only reason we're talking to them, because we can self-fund it, maybe not as fast as we would like to. So raising money is something that we need to do. But the main reason we're talking to RPO businesses is because these companies have got case studies. They've seen how it works for them. And quite honestly, the opportunity to receive 40 new customers at the same time as the investment is something that's incredible appealing. Joel: Very nice. Any clients you can mention? Any name dropping? Adam: Yeah, I could tell you we work with ... It was Quintels. It's called Iqvia, Fortune 500. We work with Mondelez, another Fortune 500. We work with Therma-Fisher Scientific, another Fortune 500. We work with Spec Savers, which is, it may be the world's number one optical retailer. It certainly is in Europe and Australia. We've got some ... It's pretty public. I can tell you one of the RPOs we work with is Cielo Talent. We've been up for some joint rewards with stuff we've done with them. And one of their clients called Dialog Semi Conductor. Joel: Okay. That's good. That's good. I just wanted a few, not the whole portfolio. Chad: Okay, so two quick questions. The first one is are you GDPR compliant, and for Joel, that's the General Data Protection Regulation. It's an EU thing. Are you GDPR compliant? Joel: What's that? A baby crying? Chad: Yes, he loves the baby crying. Are you GDPR compliant? Joel: Can you say, "Get in my belly for me," just once? Adam: I didn't say that. Joel: You know Fat Bastard, right? Chad: From Austin Powers? Joel: Get in my belly. Sorry. Adam: I do, I do, I do. Okay, so Nanny McPhee is that not Scottish as well. Sorry, Ms. Doubtfire. [crosstalk 00:30:10]. GDPR, okay, so you could use CandidateID to spam strangers, in which case it's not GDPR compliant. Or you could use it in a GDPR compliant way. So it just depends on the way that you use it. Chad: Gotcha. Adam: One of the important things about GDPR is a lot of organizations think you need to think of the regulations and say, you need to reach out to all your database and ask them to opt-in again. You absolutely don't. One financial services company I know did that recently, and they got an 8.5% opt-in rate because they asked that question. They've got to delete 91.5% of their database. That opt-out suicide. Chad: Great answer, great answer. I love that answer because that is not a yes or no answer, but my last question is knowing that you have this engagement with RPO, why the hell hasn't an RPO company or an applicant tracking system bought you guys yet? I mean, seriously? Because the thing is RPOs are incredibly efficient. This seems like a very efficient way to utilize the candidates that they have in their huge databases, in their clients' databases. Not to mention, applicant tracking system's shit. They've got the worst search technology in the world, which is one of the reasons why recruiters don't search the database. This seems like a very smart move for an RPO or an applicant tracking system. What are you guys still doing on the market? Why aren't you bought yet? Adam: Well, I think ... We've only been in the market since January last year. So we're pretty early stage. And I think we're down near the bottom of the top ten kind of hot issues right now. We keep coming up high. HR Tech World, we keep coming up high in one of their kind of most disruptive start-ups. But there's so many other things like onboarding and programmatic and AI related things, chat box and other recruitment technologies where there maybe is a cluster of organizations that are really creating bigger market penetration. At some point, of course, yeah, absolutely. If we continue to grow our reputation, grow our market position, and become successful, there will be other organizations that will be trying to do the same thing and some of those will probably look at those and think, "Actually, it's going to be cheaper for us to buy that than it is to build our own." But that's not what we're in the market for, so we'll have to wait and see how things pan out. But our current priority is to build, build, build and to be working with every one of the Fortune 500. Chad: I see. Well, it's that time, Joel. Unless you have another question? Did we lose Joel? Adam: Is he putting the dog out again? Joel: Sorry, sorry, sorry. I was talking but on mute. Yes. I am ready to put Adam in front of the Firing Squad and see how he does. I apologize for that gentlemen. Adam: I'm going to shut my eyes. Joel: Chad and I both love the whole black hole elimination strategy and taking candidates and keeping them fresh or bringing them back to life, which is popular these days in terms of saying it. So I like the general model. I like kind of where you guys are going with it. I'm not ... I think the competitive thing ... I don't want to say you danced around it, but I think you should have a better feel for the competitive landscape, be able to talk about how you're different than Crowded, how you're different than [Lever's 00:34:08] recent addition of sort of bringing back the dead from their candidate pool. I'd like to hear more just context around the branding piece. I heard sort of around how candidate branding is effected but not much around how you're helping a company build their brand and their employer brand. Like integrations and help with Glassdoor stuff. I'd like to see that in the future. I think you're off to a good start. Definitely not going to bring the guns out. But for me, I think you got some work to do to convince me that you are a stellar start up. But you're on the right track. And my grade at this point is ... Chad: Oh, my favorites. Okay. So, Adam, here's the thing. And there's no question. Again, I'm going to be consistent with my conversation that we had with Crowded. The whole waking the dead piece is huge. That is incredibly strong and if you can demonstrate, which I believe you guys can, that you don't have to spend 55% on a job board or 36% on media or whatever it is, you can go back to your applicant tracking system first and use that as your primary weapon of going out and actually finding candidates. In addition to, and this is something even more new, is filling them out and starting to engage them, nurture them is obviously the term you guys use, that is amazing. Because it's not just about waking the dead, it's about keeping them engaged. And then in scoring them, to be able to know where they're at in the funnel. I also believe on the employment branding side of the house, there's no question. There's some tightening up on the message that you guys can definitely to. This is part and parcel to exactly what employment brand should actually be. It should be engagement. It should be the way that you treat your candidates. They shouldn't be in a black hole. They should be woken from the dead and guess what? They should be constantly hit with the types of content that they want, the way that they want it. Chad: So that being said, yeah, there's definitely, you've got some work to do. But to be quite frank, the technology and everything that you guys are putting together there, I'm going with the big applause. Chad: All the way through. Joel: Hurray. Adam: Hurray. I was thinking about clapping along with Joel's golf clap to just add a little bit more volume into the sound. Chad: Yeah, adding your [crosstalk 00:37:05]. Joel: How do you feel, Adam? Do you feel okay about that? Do you feel like we ripped you off? Adam: No, I feel okay about that. We have got more work to do, absolutely. We're constantly refining our positioning. We're getting better and better. I'm aware, we're certainly not the finished article and yeah, I'm actually very pleased with that feedback because it is giving me some good pointers on things that I need to work on. Joel: Well, good deal. Thanks for you time. We appreciate it. We'll be watching and keep us updated. Chad, you got anything else? We're out. Chad: We appreciate you being here, man. We're out. Adam: Thank so much for having me. Announcer: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a start-up who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys and chadcheese.com today. That's www.C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E.com. #FiringSquad #CandidateID #Watson #TATech

Dollar dollar ZIP ya'll! Money is flowing into the recruitment tech space like a melting glacier into the Atlantic Ocean. In this week's episode, ZipRecruiter eyes a new round of funding to the tune of $50 million, valuing the company at $1 billion, or the cost of both Monster and CareerBuilder put together. Plus: - Recruitics exams Indeed three major changes already rolled out in 2018 - A salesperson at Indeed employee is pissed and goes off on Glassdoor - Soda Stream drops a killer advert, but the execution blows - RealMatch launches pandoIQ, and agencies are losing their shit - A bunch of companies just got funding - Workday turns on a start-up homing beacon And much more. While listening, visit our sponsors: America's Job Exchange, Sovren, Ratedly, Catch 22 Consulting and the Campaign to Elect Chad & Cheese to President ... of Monster. Don't forget to REGISTER for TAtechEurope - Discount Code - TATECHTEN18 PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Heidi-ho kiddies, welcome to The Chad and Cheese Show, HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: Giddy-up. On this week's show Recruitics calls out changes at Indeed in a white paper, no doubt. Recruitment ad agencies are losing their shit over programmatic ad buying, and ZipRecruiter goes looking for a Brink's truck to go hijack. Dollar dollar bill, y'all. Stay tuned. Announcer: America's Job Exchange is a market leader in diversity recruitment and an OFCCP compliant solution provider. We serve over a thousand customers consisting of federal contractors and subcontractors to SMBs and Fortune 500 organizations. America's Job Exchange specializes in job distribution to over 6,500 state one-stop career centers and community-based organizations, ensures the creation and maintenance of state credentials, obtains veteran preference on job postings, robust outreach management, and supports effective, positive recruitment efforts designed to recruit individuals with disabilities, veterans, women, and minorities. For more information, call us at 866-926-6284, or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com. Chad: Yeah, if you're a federal contractor, just so you know, make sure that you're checking to make sure that your jobs are getting actually listed into the state job bank for God's sakes. If you're not checking that stuff and you feel like vendor's doing it for you, but you're not checking it, you're probably getting screwed, dude. So check that out. Joel: Dude, I love how much you love compliance and all this crap. Because if you didn't care about it, we'd never talk about it. Chad: It's hundreds of millions of dollars. Joel: Oh I know, veteran hiring, government, that's your lane, man, and I love that you love it. But yeah, we feel pretty good about this show so I say, let's get to it. Chad: Let's hit it. Let's hit it. Joel: All right, shout outs. Chad: First off, Ed is officially on Team Chad, even though he doesn't even know what that means. I love blind commitment. Ed, I love blind commitments and I think this leads to ... before we get into anything more shout out-ish, we should talk a little bit about that Super Bowl. Joel: Oh, God. Okay, here's what we're going to talk about. The only reason he's on Team Chad is he's an Eagles fan and you picked the Eagles, so it has nothing to do with your intellect or your charm. It's just the fact that you blindly picked against the Patriots. Chad: Sometimes Ed and I are very symbiotic in our thoughts and it just happened to be that way with the Eagles, and I bet that he would also believe that my favorite Super Bowl ad was his favorite Super Bowl ad. But before we get there, what was yours? Joel: Favorite Super Bowl ad? Chad: Yeah. Joel: I think Tide ruled it. Chad: Tide. Tide did well. Joel: Yeah, Tide crushed it. That's probably the few I only remember from the game. Chad: Dude, everybody's gonna remember this one. Dirty dancing ... I had the time of my life with Eli Manning, yeah, yeah, and the lift. Dude, that was the funniest. I mean, the Manning brothers do some of the best commercials out there and the NFL knocked it out of the park on this one. Joel: The Mannings are great pitchmen for sure. Dublin's coming up. We always mention this. Eventually we will get there and not have this as a shout out anymore, but if you're gonna be in Dublin, we'll see you there. If you're not going to Dublin, you need to go. I think we have a coupon code too, which is really long. Chad: Yes, so get your writing utensil out and get ready to take this down. It is TATECHTEN, which is spelled T-E-N, not the numbers, and then 18, which are the numbers. So TATECH, with the numbers 18, TATECHTEN18. Joel: Was shamrock or leprechaun too hard of a coupon code to use? Chad: As you can see, they're fairly consistent with this coupon code, so I think they've actually created this as our coupon code. I could be wrong. But yeah, it should have been Chad and TATECHCHEESE, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So before we leave talking about the Super Bowl, first off the ad, the Chad and Cheese- Joel: I tried to get him off this, everybody. I really tried. Chad: ... the Chad and Cheese ad, though, man. It was funny because we weren't really sure how Monster was going to take this ad, you know? We thought that they might turn their- Joel: I slept with one eye open. I slept with one eye open that night. Chad: I don't believe that. We weren't sure how they were going to take it, but to be quite frank it was really cool, and there was kind of like this moment of silence, I think, and then one of their SVPs actually came out and thought it was hilarious. I think they reposted it, so we started to see a lot of trending from Monster. They really embraced us making fun of them, which I thought was cool. Joel: It's a new Monster. Everyone that was there is gone, pretty much. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The new band is pretty fun, so we're going to keep rolling with this I think. Chad: Yeah, so shout-out to David Zaneski over there. I understand he's a huge fan. He's a huge fan. Joel: David. We appreciate it, man. David'll be running that place here soon, from what we hear, so way to go David. Christi Moon, our self-proclaimed biggest fan. Chad: Woo-hoo! Joel: I was in Salt Lake City this week and Christi is in some city I've never heard of in Utah. It's probably Mormon central or something, but she came up and said hi, which I thought was awesome, because she's such a fan. So Christi, you've earned this shout-out for the two-hour round trip that you made to come say hi and hang out for a little bit. Chad: Very nice. I had an anonymous comment on LinkedIn about the Super Bowl commercial. Here's what it says, "Saw the video, thought it was very funny, but Monster will never have staffing support again now that it's owned by Randstad. None of us are going to hand over our hard-earned revenue to the competition and trust they will treat our postings fairly or securely." They end up with "Come on, Google for Jobs!" Joel: He's probably right. Chad: All rooting for you. I think it's interesting that a lot of these companies use the hell out of Indeed and they don't realize that Recruit Holdings has ... I mean, part of their portfolio, they have staffing. Right? I know it's not a big name like Randstad, but what do you think about that? Joel: I think it will further prove my point that iCIMS is going to make TextRecruit exclusive to them because none of the competitors of iCIMS want to have their API open to one of their companies, which was sort of confirmed by a certain CEO that we interviewed recently. So we will see about that, but I tend to agree that if it's so blatant as Monster is owned by a staffing company so why would staffing companies get in bed? If Monster became the Monster of old it wouldn't be an issue because everyone would have to use them, but you can sort of not use Monster now and be okay. So, yeah, I kind of agree with his point. Chad: Okay. Okay. I'm not quite there yet, but I think a lot of it does have to do with optics. There's no question, and I think you're right there. One thing I want to throw out real quick, so, Kelly ... being Robinson Kelly ... he sends us funny shit all the time. Some of it's funny, some of it's not so funny. So, there's a quick segment we're going to call Funny Shit Kelly Sends Us, and this is really a caution to talent acquisitions. Think about this, because vendors are actually doing this and their testing your systems. Here's the story. Chad: A vendor is getting ready to engage with a client and they're testing their system. In doing that, they apply for a job, which I'm sure you've heard a million times and probably some of you in talent acquisition have done this as well. They apply for a job. The next day, that individual actually received a call from a recruiter. The whole funny part about this whole stupid-ass story is that- Joel: You did say real quick. Chad: ... he applied with Big Bird's resume for a dental surgery position. So, this either means that that company needs to do a shit-ton of training from a recruiter's standpoint or maybe we need to step up our game, talent acquisition. Joel: That's your real quick story? Chad: That was a very quick story. Joel: Holy cow. Let's get through shout-outs here real quick. Apparently, there's a Melting Pot owner in Dallas with three or four franchises who listens to this show. Chad: Really? Joel: I have no idea how he found out about us, but he listens to learn about recruiting and employment, so whoever you are in Dallas owning Melting Pots, assuming you're listening, big shout out to you. Chad: Yeah, and Dallas is a huge hotbed for recruiting, TA leadership, that kind of stuff. You can go ahead, and you've got our permission, to play Chad and Cheese Podcasts over the sound system in your restaurants. Joel: I think their goal is to actually sell food, not clean it up after it's regurgitated. Chad: Good point. Joel: Chris Amato from OptiJob is still alive. Chad: What? Joel: Shout out to him. Chad: Dude. Joel: I didn't even know they were still in business, but yes OptiJob is still around doing the SEO thing, doing the social thing, and he reached out to us. I consider him a friend, I think you do too. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: It's good to hear from him and hopefully we'll be hearing about new and exciting things from OptiJob in the future. Joel: All right. You got some commentary on Recruitics this week. What's up? Chad: Ooh, so we talked about Recruitics and how they look out for their customers. Well, they had actually sent an email out to their customers talking about some of the Indeed changes. They went a step above. They created a white paper and they provided it to everybody, so you can actually go out there and look for this Recruitics white paper. It's called The Major Indeed.com changes to start 2018. People were only in February of 2018 and there have already been three major changes Indeed has made. Chad: First is the resume database. Did you hear about this? Joel: Please enlighten me. Chad: Okay, so Indeed had a very simple model. I mean, you're familiar with Indeed's model. It's a dollar per pretty much resume to be able to see the contact information, and I mean that's fairly simple. You go in, you see a resume that you like. It doesn't have contact information on it. You buy it and then you get the contact information. It's a dollar for a resume. Right? Joel: That's simple. Chad: That shit's simple. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Okay, so this isn't really the smartest always to evolve a product, but Indeed just went really crazy and they've gone to a subscription model, which should seem simple, but they've actually raised the rates from told scale that would cost $100 for 100 candidates ... right, pretty simple ... to $250 for 100 candidates. That's a huge increase. But wait, there's more. Because that's easy- Joel: Is that a 150% price increase, if my math is correct? Chad: Yes, it's good. Joel: Okay, just checking. Chad: This is where shit gets weird, okay? Joel: Okay. Chad: When reaching out to the candidates through Indeed, if you receive a negative response from a candidate yet it's still a response, you receive a candidate credit, which pretty much makes that candidate's contact information free. Right? The complexity here is already fun. If you receive a positive response, you receive a three-candidate credit, meaning that the candidate that you obviously reached out to is free, plus you get two additional credits to your contact. So what they're saying is, talent acquisition, and they're doing it in a very weird, complex way as look, we're going to charge you more but if you interact with these candidates better and you get more positive responses, you get more responses, it could actually be less than what you paid before. Joel: Okay. That sounds really complicated. They're trying to incentivize better outreach? Chad: Yeah ... I mean, really the whole scheme was created to drive better engagement using Indeed and not pissing off their candidates, which makes sense, but what it's really done is risen the cost about two and a half times and created just a complex system overall. I mean, who's going to true this up over time, and are you going to trust Indeed to say, "Oh yeah, no, you had X amount of positives and X amount of negatives, and who's actually going to tell who's positive and negative? I mean, is there a star system? Again, the level of complexity went through the roof when it was so easy before. Joel: Are the other two that complex or are they simple? Chad: The next one's fairly simple. They're kicking job board off the site, right, so cutting duplication, which means job boards you're pretty much screwed. Really, the companies who built Indeed are now getting kicked off Indeed, and this is your favorite- Joel: Fort Indeed. Chad: ... Trojan horse method, right? This is what we've talked about over a few podcasts and we're Recruitics, who also provides analytics for these different vendors too, they're also seeing this. Job boards obviously are seeing much less traffic from Indeed and they're really having to focus on seeing what they can do to supplement, and one of those things is being Google for Jobs. Joel: Yeah, and from what we've seen early on is it pretty much replaces Indeed traffic, so they don't really care that they're getting bounced off from what I can tell. Chad: And it's free, at least the traffic that we've heard- Joel: For now. Chad: ... thus far, yes, for now. Joel: So that's two changes, or was that three. Chad: No, that was two. Number three ... hey employers, we're not a search engine anymore. We talked about that a couple of podcasts back. The real big change is that Indeed is really going through regression. They started out as a pure search engine, pure search engine. Joel: Google for jobs was their mantra. Chad: Yeah. They were a pure search engine. They didn't have a resume database. Then guess what? They had a resume database, and then they obviously added complexity to the resume database, and now they've added this whole new two-pane scenario which- Joel: Did you say T-Pain? Chad: Yeah, no, not T-Pain. Two-pane. It was close though, it was close. Joel: Two-pane, got it. Chad: So instead of one click to actually go and view the job on your site, it's two clicks now, and you pay for candidates who never even hit your site. So that first click you're still getting charged for even though they're not hitting the job on your website, and you'll pay more, which is one of the things that I think you saw is that the user experience is much faster for a job seeker, but what that means is they can just click more things faster, which means it's going to cost a hell of a lot more money for employers. Joel: You're going to see a lot less traffic from Indeed because of this, but the traffic that you're going to see are people that want to apply, so I'm sort of torn between is it better to send traffic that's less but it's more applicants or people are going to look at their traffic analytics and go holy cow, Indeed's traffic dropped off the cliff? Chad: Yeah, I think- Joel: [crosstalk 00:16:53] candidates. Chad: I think a lot of it has to do with short term versus long term when it comes to employers thinking about their brand and thinking about experience. Even if that individual is needed qualified for that position, can I get them into my database because they might be perfect for another position or six, eight, 12 months down the road they might be perfect for another position or maybe even this position? Who knows. That's the thing. They've paid for that candidate view, and for all of those idiots that are out there that say, "Well, I don't want unqualified candidates anyway." Bullshit. You're paying for those individuals, get them into your database, and then start to use them the way that you're supposed to be using them. Against other requisitions and future requisitions. Don't be idiots. Joel: Plus, if you spend a lot of time making your career site awesome with videos, which we'll talk about after this, but if you've done the work, well now you don't even get the traffic because they're just going to look at the job posting on Indeed, if they're not interested just go to the next job down and keep sort of machine-gunning through the job postings. So yeah, I don't know. I think ultimately it's better for the job seeker to sort of quickly go through all these sites instead of go to each one, but there's going to be ramifications in terms of people who are on and posting Indeed and losing out on traffic and losing out on the things that they're used to. Chad: And again, I think it has to do with our relationship to the job seeker. Do we think it's more just quick and easy wham bam thank you ma'am type of transaction or is it a longterm relationship where we continue to keep them engaged and hopefully we can find an opportunity in our organization. Joel: So you came across a review on Glassdoor about working at Indeed, which that was interesting because someone at Indeed is posting on Glassdoor instead of posting a review on Indeed, but that's beside the point. The reviewer had some really interesting comments. What were some of those? Chad: Yeah, so I was actually having a conversation with one of Indeed clients and I said, "Man, I mean you guys have got to be really pissed." He's like, "Yeah, there's no question. All of me and my compadres, we're not happy about this, but the person I'm incredibly sad for right now are my sales reps because they are taking it from all flanks" and it really must suck to be an Indeed sales rep right now, and then somebody else actually sent me a review on Glassdoor that was from a sales rep. Now mind you, so Glassdoor has five stars, right? They're a five-star review. This was a four-star review, and this person picks Indeed apart. Joel: Maybe they didn't understand the star system. Chad: Who knows. Maybe they wanted to try to float this in where Indeed thought, "Oh, this is four stars, that's fine." But anyway, here's one of the quotes, "Tech teams are untouchable, even when a client has valid issues. This creates unbelievable expectations on the sales team to keep the client happy with no power while your quota and livelihood is tied to this insanity. I've been in sales for most of my life and luckily I've been able to grow into being a sales kind of liaison in overt technology groups for a while. This is the kind of rub and friction you do not want in your organization. Chad: Going on it says, "Everything operates in a shroud of mystery. They intentionally keep departments away from each other and their favorite word to a client is no. Be prepared for no more than you've ever experienced before just because they're locking things down. It took me four months to figure out pricing." This is a sales person. "It took me four months to figure out pricing because there is no pricing really schema. It is what can you get out of the customers." That was in quotes. "What can you get out of the customers," which is why I think this shroud exists and quite frankly right now it's working because talent acquisition does what? They find out what has worked in the past and they beat it like a dead horse, man, and they don't look at their ROI. That's the biggest issue. Joel: Dude, how much does this sound like what a salesperson would have been saying in like 2009 working at Monster or CareerBuilder? Chad: And that's what we keep saying, man. Indeed leadership, okay, I implore you, change your shit. This does not work, and if you think trying to play this silo game, not to mention also trying to manage by chaos ... we've seen empires like yours crumble, remember that, and they crumbled when a little startup took them down. You don't have to worry about a little startup taking your dumb ass down. You've got to worry about Google and you've got to worry about Facebook, and some of these other startups that are actually banding together to be able to attack your fucking flank. Joel: LinkedIn. Chad: They're kind of big. Joel: All right. Do you feel better after your weekly Indeed rant? Chad: I just want to see them do better, man. This is bullshit. Joel: All right, well we have a very special advertisement from our greatest sponsor ever, us. Announcer: The following message was paid for by the Campaign to Elect The Chad and Cheese as Co-Presidents of Monster. Chad: Hi. My name is Chad Sowash. Joel: And I am Joel Cheesman. You know us as- Chad: The Chad- Joel: ... and Cheese Podcast at chadcheese.com. Chad: We are aware Monster's new owners have lopped off the heads of old Monster leadership and have focused on filling those positions with fresh ideas and new proven leaders, which is why- Joel: Let them eat cake. Get it? What? Lopped-off heads, Marie Antoinette, aw come on, man. Chad: Which is why The Chad and Cheese are officially running for co-president of Monster. Joel: The Chad and Cheese understand the current vulnerability of Indeed in a market that is crying out for a new platform for and of the people. Chad: Really? The baby sound effect ... again? Joel: You know it's my favorite. Chad: Yeah. You do love that damn thing. Announcer: The Chad and Cheese pledge to build and drive cost-effective recruitment options through a new Monster vision. Joel: Yes, and The Chad and Cheese also want to answer your longstanding questions like what ever happened to Monster Networking, Chief Monster, Jobber, HotJobs, Gozaik, JobPilot, TalentBin, Trovix, Tickle, and that blue collar thingy ... what was that called? I can't remember Announcer: The Chad and Cheese promise to get you, the people, answers. Chad: And we also promise not to make boneheaded decisions like buying Tickle instead of LinkedIn. Announcer: Yeah, that actually happened. Joel: Oy. Chad and I are asking for your support in our bi to co-president Monster. Announcer: Vote for The Chad and Cheese for Co-President of Monster because you deserve a new Monster, and we don't mean that purple Bugs Bunny cartoon ripoff thing, either. Joel: It's a new day. Chad: You deserve a new Monster, and you'll get one with The Chad- Joel: And Cheese as co-presidents of Monster. Female Announce: This ad was approved by The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Look, there's literally no way in hell these guys are getting this gig, but they have a pretty amazing podcast, honestly, so visit chadcheese.com. Paid for by the Campaign of The Chad and Cheese for Co-President of Monster. Joel: Those guys are idiots. What do you think when I say PandoIQ? Chad: So RealMatch- Joel: Who you do know. Chad: Yeah, Terry launched- Joel: Yeah, Terry. Shout out to Terry. I saw him this week. They're launching PandoIQ, which is essentially their sort of self-serve Appcast, Recruitics challenger programmatic ad buying. Basically, for those that don't know, programmatic is essentially a plug your jobs into our platform, we're going to put your jobs in multiple places, we're going to manage your budget as we algorithmically figure out which positions on which sites during which time of the day, et cetera, work best, and thus you get the best results for the best bang or biggest bang for your buck. This would seem pretty straightforward, but it's got quite a few people in a tizzy for probably debatable reasons, which we will get into now. Joel: I wrote this story yesterday and at least one agency person reached out to me, one agency person reached out to you. They may be the same person, but who knows, and they have some pretty strong opinions about this. What was your guy saying? Or gal. Chad: Well, I actually reached out to my agency person, so they didn't reach out to me because I was trying to get a feel for this. Joel: So you're doing real journalism. Chad: Okay, yeah, a couple of vendors and a couple of agencies I reached. This person's take was that the world doesn't need another job board network or programmatic network. None of these guys get premium inventory on most of the sites unless you maintain a bid as if buying directly. Most buyers don't, so they end up serving just as backfill so you end up on page nine or something like that. That was the agency kind of thought process. Joel: My feedback was that because RealMatch in particular has a network of partners that they are going to sort of favor those sites as opposed to other sites and that there was a direct conflict of interest because of this setup, which I think is totally fair. I could say, well, if our network gets you the best bang for your buck then so be it, it's just our algorithm figuring out where to place ads, et cetera. But I do definitely see where double dipping may take place where we're getting money on the front end to post the ads and then we're getting money on the other end because we're the ones that are putting the ads up. Joel: I think bigger point potentially is that agencies are a little bit scared, which is doth thou protest too much ... throwing Shakespeare into the conversation, which will probably never happen again. People tend to scream when they are hurt and agencies have a direct interest in continuing to buy ads for people because that's kind of what they do beside from the warm and fuzzy and point of branding and other things like that. If you take away the job posting piece and where should we put our ads and what should the ad say and et cetera, then programmatic ad buying really hurts agencies who aren't really doing incredibly well anyway. Joel: This is going to be a battle that wages on. Which side of debate do you think will come out on top? The programmatic kids or the agency ? Chad: Well first, I think they're both going to come off well and here's why. Talent acquisition, they don't want to deal with this shit, so what are they going to do? They're going to hand it over to their agencies. So yeah, there could be this kind of frictionless platform that set up, but still talent acquisition is not going to want to jump into that shit and do it. It's going to take a while. It's going to take a while. I mean seriously, we talk about it every week. Talent acquisition, they're a jack of all trades, they're masters of none, really. To be able to take a look at this and say oh agencies, this is going to hurt agencies ... I really don't see that because of the behavior we've seen for decades. Chad: Now, one of the things that I have seen and when I was talking to one of the vendors is something actually popped out to me that I thought was interesting because RealMatch, it made it sound like that they have an actual opportunity to take a look at the inventory of all of these job sites to balance inventory and prices and all that other fun stuff. I reached out to a couple of vendors and one of them reached back and said, "It's categorically false that RealMatch has access to inventory. It's kind of like the vaporware kind of thing. I mean, with some vendors it might be that way, but not all. Chad: I think having these types of platforms, and as we talk about AI and machine learning and all of this stuff, it's going to evolve, so don't expect perfection out of the gate, but also don't expect that some of these claims are going to happen throughout the entire industry. Joel: The presentation from RealMatch actually that 1% or probably less of advertising in recruitment right now is programmatic, so we have a long way to go before this moves the needle on anybody in terms of their bottom line. I tend to agree with you in terms of most employers will say like, "We've heard we're supposed to be programmatic. We don't what the hell it is, can you guys do it for us." Agencies will be like, "Yeah, we can manage your programmatic ad buying. So I think, yeah, ultimately agencies will probably be fine, I think the programmatic solutions will be fine, and as usual it will be the employer picking up the tab on everybody being fine. Chad: Yeah. In RealMatch, I think this is a very smart move for them because they've been developing technologies on ad placements, partnerships with different distribution points throughout the web, so I think this is a good move for them. You know, you need to move forward and this was I think just the most logical step for them to take. Joel: Yeah, look, because we talked before, look at what marketing is doing, and in five years that's what recruitment is going to be doing- Chad: Exactly. Joel: ... and the marketing world has been doing programmatic for a long time, it works, so it's bound to happen in our industry as well. And speaking of agencies and employment branding, SodaStream released a really cool employment ad, which I guess I would essentially say is their founder or CEO walking through a warehouse with employees and talking about, hey, we look for creative people, we're looking for whatever, and then there are really sort of cute, funny ways that they integrate those ideas in the commercial. But there are some problems with the commercial in the execution. Chad: Let's just go over just quick five top points that SodaStream knocked it out of the fuckin' park. They had the CEO on. The pitch was perfect and it melded the actual product and the employees into the pitch. That was awesome. The spokes-dude, who is the mountain, Game of Thrones, that was really cool and it was funny. They worked him into it. They focused on diversity, they are company out of Israel, and the slogan Join the Revolution. I thought all of that was just put together so well. I was excited to join the revolution and actually go see ... okay, let's go see what this thing is all about. Chad: Unfortunately, not everything is nice and tidy as it seems. Number one, the video had subtitles but it didn't actually list the website to go visit, so they told you to go join the revolution, but the question was after the video was over it was like, okay, how? How do I do that? Joel: There must have been a link in the copy talking about the ad on YouTube, right? Like I could just click a link. Chad: No. Joel: No. Okay, so no link. What if I went to Google and searched SodaStream, working at, video. Chad: I actually put in SodaStream jobs, because that's just my behavior. My routine is I'm going straight to Google, typing in whatever the company name is, jobs, check them out first on Google for Jobs, so I did that and three jobs came up from SodaStream, only three, and they went to SmartRecruiters. Well, I actually reached out to their VP of HR, who is awesome, here in North America, and that is their old applicant tracking system. So their new applicant tracking system wasn't even getting indexed by Google. Chad: This is a lesson for everybody in employment branding, PR, and talent acquisition. If you have an old applicant tracking system and throughout the years that I've been dealing with applicant tracking systems and doing job scrapes and feeds and all that other bullshit, this happens more than you would think. Those sites say up for years in some cases because the client doesn't actually tell them to take it down. So that was an issue, so that's a good lesson. Chad: Next, and this is the big one, I went to sodastream.com and then I also saw there was sodastreamusa.com, and I went to both sites and they were pretty much just mirror sites, but there was no jobs link and there was no careers link on the entire website. Joel: Are you kidding? Chad: So how could I get to this? After this crazy journey that I've taken through just to try to join the goddamn revolution, I went back to the article where I originally saw that SodaStream was doing this and I finally found a link, one link that said micro site. I clicked on it and it took me to people.sodastream.com and the page itself was really cool. I'm not going to say it was amazing, but it was really cool. It had the CEO, had the video, it actually had their top HR leaders that were on there that you can connect with on LinkedIn, which I thought was really cool. Chad: At the end of the day the thing that really got me was throughout the entire process they weren't just selling come work for us, they were selling their product too, and it that was the most genius thing. You don't see AT&T selling their product on career sites. You've already taken them through this journey and, hey, why the hell not? Take a look at our plans or take a look at SodaStream or join the revolution. It was a really cool way to kind of close the loop, and I would love to see companies start doing that. I know that there are many experts that are out there that would say, "Hey, you're crossing a line here," but I don't think so. Joel: Yeah, and I think that the fact that the title of the page was Join the Revolution instead of Work at SodaStream or Find a Job at SodaStream. They should also buy ad space on Google and YouTube when people search working at SodaStream or jobs at SodaStream, that that video should be prominent because they did a really good job on it and just really dropped the ball on execution. Joel: But someone who do know about execution is our sponsor Sovren. Why don't we hear a quick message from them and then we'll talk about ZipRecruiter getting paid, y'all. Announcer: Google, Lever, Entelo, Monster, Jibe. What do these companies and hundreds of others have in common? They all use Sovren Technology. Some use our software to help find the perfect job, while others use our technology to help companies find the perfect candidate. Sovren has been the global leader in recruitment intelligence software since 1996 and we can help improve your hiring process, too. We'd love to help you make a perfect match. Visit sovren.com for a free demo. Joel: ZipRecruiter. Chad: Money. Money, money, money. Joel: Raising some money to the tune of 50 million dollars. Now that's newsworthy, but more newsworthy is they'll have a billion dollar valuation in this round of funding. Now, I'll remind you that Monster sold a couple years ago for about half that and CareerBuilder essentially the same. Chad: If you're from those organizations, right? How do they feel after seeing that kind of valuation? Joel: Well, probably a little better than seeing Slack's valuation at 5.2 billion and LinkedIn selling for 26 billion- Chad: Yeah, that- Joel: ... so the job posting thing is still not exactly super rich in the world of where most people live in corporate America, but yes, a billion dollar company is still pretty rare in employment, and ZipRecruiter achieving that is nice to mention. Dice is about 20% of that. What ZipRecruiter has done is take a job board, traditional marketing perfection in terms of ... I think we talked about this where ZipRecruiter doesn't care about the people who go to conferences for HR. They care about the small business owner, they care about the people that are listening to Rush Limbaugh, and people that are watching MSNBC and Fox on television, so they've really just done a great job of going from from this little niche distribution site to being where a lot of smaller companies go, and they're clearly successful at it if they're looking to have a billion dollar valuation at a fifty billion round. Chad: Well, and they're not all grown up yet. I mean, they first came out of the gates and they focused on driving candidates to vendors. That was the entrée in, right? Then they started the SMB play, so they've hit the first-rung vendors, which was incredibly smart because that's quick dollars to be able to drive ... that just makes good damn sense. Then they went to the SMB side of the house and from my understanding doing fairly well there as well. They haven't even really broached enterprise yet. Now, some enterprise companies are buying, but they really don't have the enterprise suite to where it's matured to where it's going to be. I see this money obviously being used for advertising, go figure, but also to be able to continue the huge R&D that they've been doing. Joel: Yeah, and I would assume going outside of sort of their current markets and going more global, but Zip you're doing something right, man. Keep it up. Keep it up. Joel: Someone else doing it right is Workday, who we hardly ever talk about. Actually, I think founded in Salt Lake City, again, which was where I was this week, and there's actually a building with a Workday logo on the building. They made news this week because they are creating a 250 million dollar fund for companies in AI and robotics and all kinds of stuff. They're putting their money where their mouth is in terms of trying to create an ecosystem of companies that are building the next great things in recruitment and workplace, whatever. Hat's off to Workday in the news this week for the 250 million dollar fund that they're creating for startups and new companies. Chad: Yeah. Well, this is a great opportunity for them to be able to really have this nice big pot of money that everybody sees and then what happens then? Everybody comes running to you to pitch their new startup because they want the cash, right? I think this is a great kind of homing beacon that they just created to be able to get all those new startups really coming to them, flocking to them, and then they can pick and choose and I think it's smart. Joel: Yeah, and even if they don't buy these companies or invest further in them, it's a great R&D department that you can sort of look at other ideas and people outside the company to get ideas about your own products and services. It's a ton of money, so good for them, and I'll be interested to see what kind of companies they find and come out of this fund that they're creating. Chad: Very smart, very smart. Joel: Yep, yep. All right, well the money continues to flow into HR and recruitment. We have three companies in particular that got money this week. The first one and the most highest raise was Joveo. They raised five million dollars. Employee Wow, which is not to be confused with Wepow or Pow ... there's an agency right called Pow or something. Okay. They raised a million. They're out there in Austin, Texas. And then CultureIQ, which you can imagine what they do. They try to improve the culture of companies. They've gotten two point two five million from their raise, so money continues to go into sort of these engagement tech companies as opposed to job sites and job posting sites, which I assume will continue, but good for these guys. Joel: I actually have an interview with the Joveo CEO for ERE next week, so I'll something interesting to say in next week's show about them. Chad: They just also acquired Ripple Media, purely focused on programmatic, being an agency for programmatic and obviously that fits incredibly well with Joveo. Joel: And I think that's all we got in 45 frickin' minutes of podcasting. Chad: Boom. I love it. Joel: I'm going to go enjoy the rest of my Saturday. How about you? Chad: Yeah, it's time to get a beer I think. Joel: Yeah, I agree, so with that we out. Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes or Google so you don't miss a single show, and be sure to check out our sponsors, because they make this all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh, and you're welcome. #ZipRecruiter #Recruitics #Indeed #Monster #SodaStream #RealMatch #Workday

YOU ASKED FOR IT!!!! Okay, maybe you didn't.... But you know you wanted it! It's our first The Chad and Cheese Super Bowl Commercial - that you won't see on TV because we're way too cheap. PODCAST STYLE TRANSCRIPT The Chad and Cheese Presidential bid Julie: The following was paid by the campaign to elect The Chad and Cheese as Co-Presidents... of Monster... Chad: Hi my name is Chad Sowash Joel: and I'm Joel Cheesman - you know us as Chad: The Chad Joel: and Cheese Podcast at ChadCheese.com. Chad: We are aware Monster's new owners have lopped off the heads of old Monster leadership and have focused on filling those position with fresh ideas, and new, proven leaders which is why.... Joel: ... Let 'em eat cake... Get it? What? Lopped off heads... Marie-Antoinette... Awe come on man... Chad: which is why The Chad and Cheese are officially running for Co-President.. of Monster.. Joel: The Chad and Cheese understand the current vulnerability of Indeed and a market that is crying out for a new platform.. FOR... and OF the people... Chad: Really? The baby sound effect? Joel: You know it's my favorite. Chad: You do love that one... Chad: The Chad and Cheese pledge to build and drive cost effective recruitment options through a new Monster vision. Joel: Yes, and The Chad and Cheese also want to answer your longstanding questions like - What ever happened to: Monster Networking Chief Monster Jobr HotJobs Gozaik Job Pilot TalentBin Trovix Tickle and that Blue Collar thing - what was that called? Chad: I can't remember... Chad: The Chad and Cheese promise to get you - the people - answers. And we also promise not to make boneheaded decisions like buying Tickle instead of LinkedIn... Yea, that actually happened... Joel: Chad and I are asking for your support in our bid to Co-President... Monster. Chad: Vote for The Chad and Cheese for Co-President... of Monster - because you deserve a new Monster... and we don't mean that purple Bugs Bunny cartoon rip off thing either... Joel: It's a new day... Chad: You deserve a new Monster... and you'll get one with The Chad Joel: and Cheese as Co-Presidents... of Monster... Julie: This ad was approved by The Chad and Cheese Podcast. There is no way in Hell they are getting this gig, but they have a pretty amazing podcast. Visit ChadCheese.com - Paid for by The campaign for The Chad and Cheese for Co-President.... of Monster...

One of the biggest stories from 2018 was recruiting software solution Scout getting $100 million in investment. The company is quietly becoming a force, so the boys decided to sit down with CEO Ken Lazarus to find out what's going on. Enjoy this Uncommon exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Tengai: Hi, this is Tengai, the unbiased interview robot. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I love these guys. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: We're back, back again. Chad: I know you missed us everybody because we don't produce podcasts every day or anything. Special guests today, we have Ken Lazarus, CEO of Scouts, all around just smart guy that has increased the IQ points of this podcast by about 300. PhD from MIT, Bachelors from Duke, tons of boards and all that good stuff. Ken, welcome to the the most knuckleheaded podcast in HR. Ken: Thanks guys. Thanks for having me on. Chad: You bet. So what did we miss in the intro? And feel free to give us a little bit about Scout for those who do not know. Ken: Oh well it sounded pretty good to me, so I liked it, thank you. I have been running companies for about 25 years or founding them as a founding board member or CEO. A bunch of different types of companies, but all tech, typically trying to shake up an industry. Done similar things in kind of hardware and semiconductors. Recently in advertising, bringing all that printed media ad into the internet through demand side platforms and all those kind of algorithms that have, you know, if you'll look at a chair and it follows you around the internet, the retargeting, it's got all that fun stuff. So you're welcome for that. Ken: And now most recently in the HR space where we've got Scout, which is really a new way to use data for recruiting. And what we do is we connect employers who've got jobs to fill with recruiters who have a track record of being really successful in filling them. We make those matches, and then those recruiters get you great candidates to make really good hires. One way to think about it, and I know it's a little bit of a tired analogy with Uber is you know Uber, you push your button, it connects you with the driver who's best able to take you from point A to point B. Essentially we connect you with the recruiter that has got that best track record of filling that position so they can help you get a great hire. Ken: And literally like 91% of all hires made by third parties are made by specialists. So that's folks who specialize in one role, they get to know the job spec really well, the company, they know the candidate pool, they can make the match. So we match you up with the matchmaker essentially. Chad: So Ken, one of the things I... And what you're talking about right now, Joel and I talk about all the time. We think the on-demand kind of marketplaces are definitely the way that pretty much recruiting is evolving toward. But the hardest thing about HR and recruiting is adoption is incredibly slow to adopt. Now you're coming in from an entirely different industry. Tell us a little bit about what you've been able to see within obviously Scout in itself and engaging the recruitment community with regard to adoption of new technology, new processes. Ken: Yeah, I'd say it's a similar and different. So it's similar in that most folks in most industries don't like to adopt new things. You think about in the ad space, right? Where the old joke was 50% of the ads work, but we don't know which ones and you can't move it or anything. And the sales people, they sort of had, they knew the client, they said, I know what you need, I know how to get your stuff done. But there was no data to actually assess if any of it was right. They pushed back hard in terms of adopting this new thing. But you know, the data speaks for itself, and also actually knowing what works and not and only paying for what works, it's really kind of a really good thing, right? So even though there's pushback and it's slow and you have to get them to believe and understand and all that. Ken: Then you have the same thing going on in kind of the HR space here where people are used to having one recruiter they like, they know, they trust, and they basically pressure them to do more. But that one person isn't necessarily an expert in the jobs that they want and so forth. So you know, they really need to use the data and get connected with the ones who know the candidate pool really good. And you have more pushback, similar adoption. Now the biggest difference is HR folks on the most part, I mean generalized, but they're more people people, not data people. Chad: Right. Ken: And so, you know, getting them to kind of be comfortable and deal with the data and that part it has been harder. They typically want someone to help them with that. But there has been a lot more now like analytics people placed into HR, side by side with the people people. And that's really helped. So I actually see it starting to accelerate quite a bit now. It's interesting. Chad: What ingredients do you need to actually create a marketplace? And how is your marketplace different from some of the ones that you mentioned like the Uber's of the world? Or maybe even the Fivvers or what have you? Joel: Is Bounty Jobs a competitor? Ken: Yeah, well I would say a couple of different questions there. So yes, Bounty Jobs is a competitor, but it's a good kind of a compare and contrast in talking about what makes a marketplace work and what really doesn't. So one you need to actually have everyone working together kind of under the same rules. And what we've done is we've created kind of a uniform contract and getting a bunch of Fortune 200 companies to all agree on the same terms is quite a challenge. But once you do that, now we have, 600 so companies and 5,000 or so recruiters under the same terms and conditions. And therefore we can instantaneously connect any one of them to get working on any job that they're expert at being able to do whereas others like a Bounty Jobs and others they don't have that uniform contract. Ken: If you think about your Uber, you don't want to be negotiating with each of the drivers as you go, right? It's all under one contract. The other thing that you need is you need to be able to match, right? So you need good matching. People have really sort of looked at matching resumes to jobs and that's really hard. We can get into why for a number of reasons, it isn't because of the algorithms, the machine learning can't do it, it's really a data problem. We can get into that later. Chad: It's a human problem, right? I mean because we really write bad job descriptions. Ken: Yeah, exactly. Job descriptions have very little useful information, as does a LinkedIn profile for that matter, right? So it was connecting kind of garbage and garbage and that becomes quite hard to match. Joel: Did you just call LinkedIn garbage? Chad: No, he called your profile a garbage. Joel: Oh okay. My bad. Ken: Well mine too, my LinkedIn profile is as much garbage as anyone else's. But what you can match to is a track record. And so if you have a recruiter track record you can really match to that. And that's one of the fundamental things that differentiates us as well, is we have all that track record data and it's all done in a way that's sort of systematic, and we can uniformly apply it across companies, across industries, across job types. It doesn't matter what the job title is because we can figure out what it means and all that. Ken: And we have access to all these jobs and so forth because we're integrated into ATS', which is another thing our competitors aren't. So for the enterprise you can basically check a box and post the jobs to Scout, there's no redundancy. If you want to track your candidates, and I know you guys know ATS as a note, you hate them like everybody else, as we do. But when you track it in an ATS, we'll pull that information, we'll send it out to the search firms so it cuts down on the noise. Everyone can know the status of the candidates in real time and all that. So we're trying to create this marketplace that's really information rich, available to everyone, transparent, and just really easy to make those matches. If you think about trying to find like a headhunter, third party recruiter for 40 different jobs, you want a couple for each of them, like yeah, good luck with that. You got to interview like 200 head hunters, like just hang me now, right? Like I don't want to do that. Joel: Shoot me now. Joel: Ken, I have a question, Chad. I want to get back a little bit on the company. Last year I wrote a blog post that highlighted I believe the 10 like biggest news stories. And one of them was was you guys raising $100 million, which honestly doesn't happen a lot in our industry. Jobcase did it again fairly recently, so there must be something in the water there in Boston that people are just writing checks. But I'm curious, what have you done with that money in the past year and when are you guys filing for IPO? Well. Ken: So first, one thing that really surprised me when I started looking at this industry is the amount of investment that's going into it. And it only makes sense considering it's literally like a half a trillion dollar market. That's the amount of money people spend worldwide on recruiting. And that doesn't even include kind of SOW, which is like consultants and stuff, which probably be $5 trillion if you added that in. So it's a huge amount of money. Companies are getting, even in the ATS space, Taleo was bought. They're getting 10x revenue on those recurring revenue streams. And there's a lot, a lot of BC, PE investment going into that. So that's number one. And it's ripe for disruption, right? So it's a great investment area. I was surprised about that to learn that, but it was very cool. Ken: And also we have an investor, John Schwong, who's an industry veteran. He's been pioneering lots of different stuff. He's a founder and not just an investor, he's totally committed believer in this, and he's got deep pockets. So that's good. The downside is, it's just him and I, and so we don't agree, he writes a check so you know who wins that argument. Joel: Sounds like a wife. Ken: I spent a lot of time like raising them money with BCs and that's a whole kind of thing in itself. And I love all my BCs, and I've had great ones, but there's a certain inefficiency of having to go raise money, and spend a little, and wait, and hit some milestones, go raise some more money, get five partners from five different firms to agree on anything, all that stuff. So this is really efficient and I mean what we've been doing with that is building a fantastic crop product, building a great a service organization because that's a big part of this. Matching technology and so forth and just investing in building the marketplace. Chad: How does the matching technology work? You have algorithms around recruiters, but is it also algorithms around the actual candidates in the system matching up against the job descriptions? Because, I mean we were just talking about how job descriptions and profiles are pretty much junk. How do you match the garbage to the garbage? Joel: By the way, I love how you just ignored my IPO question. That was great. Ken: I'll answer that, no idea. No, that's all right, we're here to build a big valuable company. There's a lot of different liquidity options. There's no specific, we don't have any specific time table right now. Joel: Fair enough. So back to Chad's question, I'm sorry. Ken: Yeah, back to the matching. So what we do is we match the job to the recruiter track record against that job type. So basically we have this machine learning system that takes any job and it doesn't really matter what the title is, it basically looks at all the words on a job description and classifies it into one of about a thousand different job types. And then we group them into subtypes and categories and things like that. So basically you can figure out it's an employment lawyer, or it's a front end developer it's a backend developer, it's a marketing manager, those types of things. There's enough information in a job description to categorize it, at least at that level. Ken: And then we do that for every single job and we look at every single recruiter, what they work on, what jobs, what candidates they submit, do the candidates get accepted into the interview process, how far did they get, did they get hired, all that stuff. So we just look at that track record against the job type, and you have a rating, a track record against that job type, that industry, that geography, all those different things. And then it makes it really easy to match it because we have these track records and all I have to do is just figure out what kind of job it is and match it up to the one who's got the best track record. If you think about it someone's been placing Java Developers in Boston for the last six months and been pretty good at it, they're probably going to be pretty good at it the next two months as well and get you some good candidates. Chad: And I totally understand that because you're matching against a track record. That's something that should be solid, right? But on the other side, we're talking about trying to match profiles against job descriptions. You don't believe that we're up to that just yet because it's all garbage data. Is that what I'm hearing? Ken: It's a lot less useful. So it's not completely useless. But, I'd say 95% of our matching comes from the track record and maybe 5% from their profile. Now you can augment those. So you can do testing, you can pull information. So for example in a resume, someone may have, it may at least list a company. Well, you can pull the information on that company and find out, hey, this person stayed five years at a company that was a hundred person company or got promoted three times, so they're probably kind of good. So you can figure out stuff, but it's a lot more complicated and difficult. Ken: So the track record is going really, really good and over time we'll build up and just in general, you know the matching of the candidates to the jobs will get better over time, but it's going to be a long time before it is even a higher weight even then the recruiter matching. Recruiter matching is going to be the main thing at least for the next five years. Joel: You have an incredibly strong skillset in terms of artificial intelligence, and obviously being a PhD from MIT that should come as no surprise. But AI is obviously the buzzword in the vendor space in our industry. So everything from chat bots, to automated sourcing, to scheduling, to all of it. Just kind of curious about your overall thoughts on AI. How much of it is real? How much of it is just plugging in Watson? And what should HR people and recruiters as a whole sort of appreciate about what's going on with AI in recruiting? Ken: Yeah, great question. It's actually something I love, I'm passionate about. It's actually, it seems hot now. I think two years ago, and I've got my head of marketing sitting around here, like I would say, we got to talk about AI, she'd be like, "No one in HR wants to hear about AI." And now it has become like obviously a pretty big thing and for good reason, right? Because the algorithms have gotten over the last five years, the algorithm has gotten really good. The ability to process lots of data, even for a relatively small company like us, we're using AWS and other things like that has gotten relatively easy. Ken: So we can use the same tools that everyone else does to do that to, to build these algorithms, and the applications of them have started to work. So for instance, our recruiter matching that really works using let's say a chat bot to ask screener questions, no problem with that, it fits pretty good. So if you try to use a chat bot to figure out who you're going to hire, it's going to be a disaster. If you're going to use a chat bot to do the screener questions, great. If you're going to use machine learning to match your resume to a job, you're going to end up with the problems Amazon had, which is arguably the best at machine learning, but they had this completely biased algorithm that didn't work. But if you are going to match your recruiter track record, it's going to work pretty well. Ken: So the great thing that I've seen is not only the algorithms getting much, much better over the last decade, but now, especially even in HR, they've got real applications that really work. You've got to pick them carefully. I sort of think about it in terms of human decision making complexity. And you don't want to start with the hardest problems, you want to start with the easiest time consuming problems. And that's just like automation, you do it that way regardless. So in AI, now there's applications that really work and that's what's exciting. I think it was- Announcer: It's commercial time. Chad: Dude, we're always talking about cool new tech, but it's hard for hiring companies to change. I mean adoption's a bitch. Joel: Yep. Chad: New tech can get them to qualified candidates so much faster. Joel: I know man, but recruiters already have their routine in place and nobody wants to jump into another platform, especially when it's expensive and also requires hours, maybe days of training. Chad: Exactly, but that's where Uncommon's new service comes into play. Uncommon pairs expert recruiters with in-house kick ass technology. Joel: All right, interesting. Interesting. It sounds like Uncommon understands the problem of change. Chad: That's why they hand select veteran recruiters, train them on this kick ass technology that has access to over 100 million active profiles. Joel: Yeah, yeah. But I bet they're expensive and I bet it requires some kind of annual commitment or contract, right? Chad: No, man. Uncommon is not an agency, they don't require a contract, any contingencies. All they do, they charge one flat fee per project saving, I don't know, anywhere from 50 to 80% on each hire versus the average agency cut. Joel: Oh, snap companies could save big stacks of paper, especially if they're rapidly scaling and need hires today. Chad: Yep. And all you have to do is reach out to Teg and the Uncommon crew at Uncommon.co. That's uncommon.co. Joel: Change doesn't have to be a pain if you're using Uncommon. Chad: It's show time. Ken: What do they call it? Like the nuclear winter of AI was for about 30 years starting a decade ago where all these people were working on and none of it really worked for anything. So it was pretty cool to see it start popping up and actually working. Joel: Yeah. You mentioned chat bots and a lot of the money that's flowing into this industry is going to chat bots. Should we believe the hype or do these services have a long way to go to really make a difference? Ken: Oh I think a little of both. They've got a long way to go to really make a difference, but like I said, you're starting to see some initial places where it actually kind of works okay. You know, initial screenings. You know the beginning, if you think about a recruiting process as a sales process for the big funnel of the world of candidates at one end and the alpha couple or one that you want to hire at the other end. You know, at that big screening step at the beginning, or getting people to pay attention to you, or marketing to them, you don't need humans to do all that stuff. You really can do that algorithmically and then have a little bit or interaction with the people who respond. I mean, it's better. Ken: Right now what does marketing have for that interaction? They see if you read something or clicked on something. Okay, well take it to the next step, ask them a simple question, get an answer one way or another, and now you've qualified them a little bit further before you turn it over to a human. That stuff actually is starting to work pretty well. Chad: We were actually on stage with Holland Dombeck from a Delta Airlines a couple of weeks ago and she was talking about how her recruiting team has, they've been able to log that they're actually getting back 80 hours a week to their recruiting team. And I believe, I agree a hundred percent, chat bots have a long way to go, but because our processes are so jacked up right now as it is, these little technologies, if implemented correctly, there can be huge impact right now. Ken: Agreed, totally. Chad: So kind of spinning away on talking about AI, you just mentioned Amazon and that algorithm, and how it kind of went haywire. Knowing that there's a lot going on with compliance with GDPR across the pond and then obviously here pretty soon in California they're going to have a GDPR-like type of regulation that is coming out. Do you believe that black box AI is going to be able to exist? Or do you think all of that is going to have to be open and transparent so we can actually find out why the AI is making the decisions that it's making, especially when it comes to candidates and pushing them through the process? Ken: Yeah, the compliance stuff is pretty interesting. We're already GDPR compliant here at Scout. So we kind of know how to deal with a lot of that stuff. And again, because we're looking at a track record where we can look at the track record against even let's say gender, right? We know the answer should be 50-50 that one's pretty easy. And we can see, basically the bias in the system, we can correct for it so we can show that stuff. So we have a big advantage to be able to dealing with that stuff right now. Ken: But you asked a really... One of my favorite questions about the black box problem, right? And how do we deal with that because no, people are not going to put up with a black box for picking candidates in a world where there's known biases and things like that. So what do you do? And it's an interesting problem because if you break out the components of why you're selecting people and then use that, you're actually have now sort of handicapped your algorithms by doing that. But if you don't do that, then what are you going to do? I do think there's a solution in the middle, which is where you actually can not only output the selection, but you can output the why out of the black box. And then if you show that that why actually correlates and stacks up to the output, over time you can show that you're compliant. That's what we're doing at Scout. Chad: Got you, got you. So when we talk about Scout itself, how many recruiters are in pretty much the database that are ready for work? And then also what segment of the population are you currently focusing on to be able to obviously provide these services? Ken: Yeah, so we have about 5000 recruiters on the network. We probably have about 1000 kind of weekly active or so users, just kind of how we measure it, which is someone like working on a job right now. So that's kind of the population we're dealing with right now, we are focused in North America. We're not international yet, that's probably going to be next year's a task for us. But we do all industries and all job types and so forth. And we started in North America, we started with I guess what you would consider your traditional headhunter contingent firm roles. You know, your engineer, your director of this or that, even like nurse, doctor, whatever, that kind of stuff that you hire a headhunter to go help you find. And that was interesting and that's sort of how we got started. Ken: But what we found is now this network has gotten more and more powerful and efficient because we're able to direct the jobs to the folks who are experts in them instead of them using their 10 candidate pool that they found to fill one position, they can now fill three with it. So they're getting a lot more efficient and that drives that efficiency, drives the cost down and so forth too, right? So everyone is more efficient. And what we found is we can go after not just traditional headhunter jobs, but all kinds of jobs. So we fill manufacturing operator jobs, at a couple thousand dollar a piece, we fill call centers at $1-2000 apiece. And interestingly all the way up to directors of medicine, heads of global markets, chief investment officers, $100000 fee. So the fees range from $1000 to $100000, and we really now can have a great strategic conversation with our customers about where do they need to augment their team, where do they need help hiring, and those are the jobs we can help them fill. And it could be the traditional ones, it could be executives, it could be more the volume jobs, either one. And now we started adding temp as well. Ken: And we'll be able to optimize even between not only which firm, which recruiter works on these different jobs, but even do you want to do a temp or a temp to perm or perm, what geography you want it, and we can really advise our clients based on all the data we have. So it's a whole other set of services and information we can provide to our clients just around the huge amount of data that we're collecting. I think right now, basically a candidate is submitted like every 30 seconds or something like that. I can't remember the exact number, but it's getting pretty large. Chad: Got you, got you. So it's interesting because as we talk about AI, and machine learning, and all these big kind of scary things, recruiters kind of feel like they're going to lose their job. And we've had conversations about how we feel about that. What are your thoughts? Let's say in the next five years, what does a recruiter's job look like? Does it look pretty similar to what it is today? Or is it much different than what it is today? Ken: No, we won't need recruiters at all. So it's going to look quite different though. And what's going to happen is, I mentioned before kind of this human decision making complexity model, which is when you look at disruption of jobs and job functions. So the type of work that's done, that's more the mundane lower-level stuff, reaching out to candidates, scheduling, initial screenings and filters, the recruiters are not going to have to waste our time doing that anymore. Chad: Got you. Ken: What they're going to do is spend their time on really assessing the few that make it through all of these automated screens and so forth, or maybe finding the diamonds in the rough and really figuring out are they a fit for the company, for the job, and are really doing that actual hard work of doing that. The other thing they're going to do is sell the candidate, right? No one changes jobs and leaves a good job, but the people you want all are highly sought after. Ken: And what's going to change because a chat bot asks them to come take this cool new job and it really takes a human to sell somebody on something like that. And not only that, the candidates we want, they're passive. They have jobs. We don't want people who are filling out job applications online. We all want to hire people who are great employees that are currently gainfully employed and probably don't have a whole lot of time to pay attention, and certainly not pay attention to chat bots reaching out to them. So you need these recruiters and the relationships to network to the right people and to have relationships with them and convince them to even look at a job, look at a new company. That's the hard work that a recruiter is going to do, they're not going waste their time scheduling and screening and the other stuff that frankly they probably don't want to do anyway. Chad: Right, right. So knowing that AI is getting smarter and smarter, do you believe that AI is going to be making a lot of these decisions up front and then it's just going to be the product on the back that we're really having to work through? So they're doing the candidate matching, they're doing the screening, they're doing all of these things that have pretty much been programmed into them of what we want and what we need. Is it just going to be a press the button to push the job out and then you wait until after the first interview before you actually see what pops out on the end? Ken: I think a lot of it will be done in that way, but also you need ways to introduce randomness because you don't want to get too stuck. You're like you're never going to learn and do new things if you keep doing kind of the same thing. Chad: Yeah. Ken: And we even give that ability. So we'll give the ability of newcomers to try out and search for jobs, find them and work on them. We'll give them the ability to try new companies, new job, whatever. They'll start getting shut down if their performance stinks and kicked off if they're not good. And so if it's not working for them, they'll move onto or they'll stick with what they know or whatever. But you do need ways to make sure that your system isn't stifling in a nation, that your system isn't, blocking out certain segments, especially because of bias. So it's not that simple as just saying, oh yeah, we'll wait until we have this sort of short list of great candidates and screen them. There's a lot more work to do, but it's more of the intellectual work to make sure your system is working right. Then the mundane stuff of figuring out, oh, how am I going to get these five people scheduled on the same day for these three people I want to bring in? You don't have to spend a lot of time doing that anymore hopefully. Chad: Last question, I don't know if you're familiar or not, but Indeed bought a platform called Sift. And Sift is really a marketplace from my standpoint, as we take a look at Indeed is owned by Recruit Holdings out of out of Japan, they are a huge recruiting/staffing company. I personally see Indeed trying to move staffing into more of a marketplace type of scenario. Do you believe that big companies like Indeed are going to start to pivot into your market? And if so, is it going to be more on the staffing side or do you really see it as more direct to an employer? Ken: You know, I don't know if they're going to try to shift into our marketplace, but there's a huge need for kind of what they do, right? So all of the recruiters on our network need to find candidates are what we call our providers, right? The 5000 search engines out there. We're not providing the candidates for them, they're finding them through their network through other ways. And Indeed frankly is one way. There's also companies want to hire some folks directly, they don't always want to use a third party recruiter and so forth. And so again, the internal recruiters, they have limited networks for all the different job types they have to try to get and so forth. So they're always going to use things like Indeed to post their jobs and source and so forth. Ken: So there's still a need for all of that and a big need for all of that. And it's just consolidation is good for this industry in that sense. And that for the candidate's easier, like I don't want to look at 20 different job boards or whatever. If there's one place that's serving the need or a couple that's actually not so bad. So the fact that Indeed has been buying up all these different properties and sites to do that, and that they're trying to match the candidates of the jobs they should be trying to do that, even though we all talked about, it's really hard. Whether we're going to get into tracking recruiter track records and all that stuff. And one of the problems they have is that once a candidate is submitted, they kind of lose visibility of it. So they have no way to know who's good, where we have visibility into those submissions and what happens to those candidates throughout every job, every company, and so forth. And we can normalize it, as I said, by job type and industry and so forth. Ken: So we can build those track records because we have access to all that data and we use that to create the ratings for the recruiters. And those ratings, incorporate all the things these recruiters are good at. Like finding candidates, finding jobs, candidate experience, all that- Chad: Sounds like an Uber rating, right? Ken: Well, it's like the stock price, right? You know how they say all the information about a stock is included in the stock price basically? So our recruiter rating is basically that. So if you want to know who's good with candidate experience, well it's the higher rated ones because they've got people placed. And so having access to that end to end data set, is something that as a marketplace operator and us being in the middle and being integrated and ATS', we have a pretty unique view in terms of being able to track all that stuff. Chad: Got you. So I lied, last question. We just talked about having one place to go, like where we were referencing Indeed. What about Google's foray into this market from the Google For Jobs standpoint, not to mention applicant tracking system, they are currently powering like 4000 different recruitment platforms. What do you think about Google's foray into recruitment? Ken: I think it's great. So I mean we actually work with them quite a bit on some of this stuff, including the job categorizations and things like that. I mean they basically got into it because people were searching for jobs. And what is Google good at? Search. And we're actually using some of their capabilities in terms of job search, everyone uses Google search, right? So I think it's great that they're in that. We've collaborated on the categorization and all that stuff. I think that in terms of their ATS, if you look at the Google Suite, what do you have? You have calendar and you have mail, right? I mean that's awesome, right? So again, I was talking about chat bots doing scheduling and all that stuff, putting that in the ATS platform, that's awesome, All the ATS platforms are our partners. We're partnered and connected with IBM Connects and and Oracle, Taleo, and Workday, and Google and so forth, right? Ken: So we don't view that as competitive at all. We actually view them as a great partner. Chad: Excellent. Well Ken, first and foremost, I'm going to have to apologize because this is after lunch and Joel usually takes his nap after lunch and I think he actually is taking his nap right now. But I appreciate you coming on, talking to us and anything you want to leave us with? Ken: No, just thanks so much for the opportunity. It's great chatting with you guys, even if Joel did fall asleep. And yeah, anytime you guys, I'd love to chat about Scout, and recruiting, and AI. It's like nothing I'd rather do, so thanks. Chad: Excellent. So if somebody wants to find out more about Scout, where would the go? Ken: www.goscoutgo.com. Chad: Excellent. Thanks so much. Ken: Thanks guys. Chad: We out. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit Chadcheese.com. #Marketplace #AI #Matching #CollegeRecruiter #Recruitment

Live from New York, the boys recorded the weekly show at HireConf, HiringSolved's conference. In addition to covering news from Monster, Dice, Glassdoor and Under Armour, there's a riveting interview with HiringSolved co-founder and CEO Shon Burton. Enjoy, and visit sponsors Sovren, JobAdX and Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your RPO partner for the disability community, from source to hire. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman, are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Chad: This week Chad and Cheese was live from New York City and HIREconf, brought to you by the wonderful people at HiringSolved. Enjoy after a word from our sponsor. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations, that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and, in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: Whew, hello New York, bring it. Audience: Woo! Joel: Dude, you said that would feel like we were in a rock band, and it was pretty close. Chad: It was pretty close. Joel: It was pretty close. Chad: Yeah, I thought, let's move in, yeah, that was good stuff. Joel: Who knows who we are, anyone? Audience: Woo! Chad: Who doesn't know who we are? Shame. Joel: All right. Chad: Shame. Joel: I'm the good cop. We have a podcast, for those of you, who don't know who we are. We cover a weekly show, where we cover the industry, who's buying, who's getting money, who's going out of business, who sucks. We cover that. We have a show called Firing Squad, what's sort of like Shark Tank for the employment industry, and we have two. Chad: Without the millionaires. Joel: Then we have two shows, where we dig deep into subject matter like automation and chatbots and shit like that. We will cuss during the show, so if you're offended by any of that, fuck it. Chad: Ear muffs. Joel: This is a live show, this will be our weekly show. I'm ready to go at it, unless anyone has any questions, we're going to launch into the show. Chad: Questions, comments. Okay and we won't be using ear muffs, so you're just going to have to do it yourself, right, so. Joel: All right. Chad: Hit it. Joel: Live from New York, it's the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Chad: Bring it. Joel: Yep, HR's most dangerous podcast is in the Big Apple. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm drunk Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, turns out everyone actually is looking for a job, every minute of every day. Under Armour is not okay with those three martini lunches, at the local strip club anymore. Chad: What? Joel: And we get a few good minutes with HiringSolved's founder and CEO, Shon Burton. Chad: Woo. Audience: Woo. Joel: Let's do it, so let's do shout outs. Chad: Do it, okay. First and foremost, shout out for the beer, Shane Gray, everybody, Shane Gray. Came all the way from Dublin, just to be able to deliver Modelo Beer. Joel: It's not a party if the Irishman is not here. Chad: That is good shit, yeah. Joel: Yeah. Chad: I mean, that's obviously his first. Joel: Modelo from the Irish guy. Chad: Ed from Philly, stand up buddy. Ed: I don't wanna stand up. Joel: Yeah, no. Chad: He's a super fan right there, bringing all the hate from Philly that you can get, we love the man. Ed: Boo. Chad: See. Joel: Early on, Ed's been there for us and we're here for you Ed. Chad: We're here for him. Joel: Always. Chad: He needs friends though, so. Joel: Jo Weech. She's in the audience, there we go. Chad: Super fan. Joel: Super fan is here. Chad: Love her. Joel: Front row, no panties. No panties or bras on the stage, if you were thinking about it. Audra Knight, is on our shout out list, as well. Chris Russell. Tincup is not here, although he's on the list. Chad: There he is. Joel: Yeah, if you're in New York, Chris will be somewhere eating pizza or drinking. Chad: Or both. Yeah. So Ross Henderson, gave us a shout out. Joel: Yes, Ross Henderson of LinkedIn. And you know I love to drink the LinkedIn Kool-Aid. Chad: You are such a stinker. Joel: Ross Henderson, LinkedIn, super fan. He calls us an unvarnished show, in a good way, which is nice. Chad: Yeah, yeah, in a good way. Jorge, I'm going to screw this up so badly. Albinagorta. Joel: Is he here? Chad: No, I don't think so. Joel: Oh, okay, well, who cares if he says your name. Chad: Yeah, just love. We got to give people love, who listen and show up as well. And Jackie because she said she's going to dance. Joel: Jackie is going to dance? Chad: Yes. Joel: Nice. Nice. Chad: She needs to get a beer though, you need a beer to dance. Joel: I had one, Debbie Salado. Chad: Huh? Joel: Is she here? I threw it in. Audience: She was here yesterday. Joel: She was here yesterday. Chad: Okay. Joel: All right, well shout out to her. Chad: Sucks to be you Debbie, you're not here. Susanna Frazier, where's she at? Here somewhere. Yeah, no, she tweeted a top five recruitment podcast list out. Have you ever seen these podcast lists? Right, they're like, hey top five, this is what you should listen to. Matt O'Donnell, actually gave us a good response and said- Joel: Wait, we weren't on the list of podcasts though. Chad: We weren't on the list, yeah. Joel: Like you need to add that, it's kind of, an important- Chad: Matt said the fact that hashtag Chad Cheese isn't on the list, is a shock. Joel: It's kind of bullshit, I don't know. Chad: Yeah, it's bullshit. Joel: Just saying. Chad: John, okay this is awesome. We asked definitely to connect on LinkedIn and Facebook and tweets, you know hashtag Chad Cheese. So I got called out on LinkedIn. Jon Hedlund. Apparently I took too long, to accept his LinkedIn invitation. This was John's response, "Fucking six weeks for the Chad to accept." And that was it. That was it, so shout out to John. Yeah, Jon I'd say that I'm sorry that it took me that long but dude. Joel: So many haters. Chad: But I don't sit on LinkedIn, waiting for motherfuckers to send me invites. Like I just don't do that. Joel: Recruiters have no patience, at all. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not my job, I don't do that. Joel: Ed Newman gone crazy, we'll give him a quick shout out. Chad: Jesus Christ. Joel: Ed Newman, a lot of you know in the industry, Phenom People. If you listen to our podcast and a lot of you do, you know that we were at iCIMS, a few weeks ago. Chad: I'll just say right. Joel: We're saying to their CEO, talking about destroying the middle-men of which he named Phenom, as one of those middle-men. Well, Ed Newman took, not too kindly to that comment. His so, in all fairness, Ed's take on this is, it's iCIMS, that is the middle man, they're getting crushed on the down. The smaller businesses are being serviced by Lever, Greenhouse, the big enterprises are being serviced by Workday and the Goliaths like that. And it's the ATSs like iCIMS, that are sort of stuck in the middle. Chad: Yeah. Joel: In fairness to Ed, he's been around a long time, he knows the industry. He is sort of lobbying for his, you know his folks. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: But time will tell, exactly who wins that game and who doesn't. Chad: Yeah, I think we've seen this, throughout the years, right? The whole cycles of the big Uber enterprise systems and then they just crash because they suck. Because they have all these things that they try to do and they don't do anything well. So, yeah. I think the middle-men, they are niche players that were born because user experience sucked, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: But if he doesn't think that he's a middle man, he is so full of shit. I don't think that they're going away but they, he's a middle man. That's all he is. Joel: He's a layer, I believe is what- Chad: Yeah, a layer, which is a middle man. Joel: ... the vernacular is. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Colin Day says he's a middle man, I say he's a middle man. Joel: We'll see. No, he believes that they're at least five years ahead of any other ATS, that wants to do what Phenom people does. Chad: Okay. Joel: Any Phenom users, in the audience? Chad: Yeah, I think that says it all guys. Joel: Darn it. Chad: No hands, no hands. Joel: Any iCIMS users in the audience? Chad: Yeah, I think that says it all Ed Newman. Joel: iCIMS wins, okay. Chad: No, I think somebody did raise a hand but it was very slow, it was like ah shit, I'm the only user here, damn it. Yeah, so you had one Ed, that was it. Yeah, so no, we love you Ed but dude, you're a middle man, get over it. Joel: Let's do a Russian shout out, real quick. Chad: Okay. Firing squad. Firing squad we just talked about. We're pleasantly surprised. Has anybody heard of these things called chatbots that are out there? Audience: Yeah, no. Chad: Right, yeah, no shit, right? Yeah, duh. Joel: Who hates chatbots? Not yet, okay, give it time. Chad: All over the place. Everybody, chatbot, chatbot, for everything there's a chatbot, right? We were getting ready to flame the hell out of this Russian chatbot. I mean literally. Joel: The chatbot wasn't Russian. The founders of the company are Russian. Chad: Which means it was a Russian chatbot, anyway. So anyway, we're getting ready to flame this and she comes on and she did a wonderful job. If you haven't heard, it's XOR.ai. Check out the firing squad. Joel: X-O-R.ai, which I thought was the worst name since- Chad: XOR, yeah. Joel: Go Cavas.io, but. Chad: If you're into math you know Xor, like an Xor gate and that's, she's a mathematician. So it's all kind of. Joel: Nerd alert. Chad: Yeah, anyway, sorry about that. Too deep, too far. Joel: And the last one we have is The Hiring squad, crew, let's brown nose them for a second. Jeremy, Sean. Chad: Woo. Joel: Everybody, yeah, let's hear it for The HiringSolved crew, woo. Audience: Woo, woo. Chad: They got suckered into bringing us on stage, yes. Audience: Yeah. Chad: Love it, love it. Joel: All right. Let's get to the show. Chad: Hit it. Joel: All right. DHI. Chad: Everybody knows DHI. Joel: The artist known as Dice, Clearancejobs and eFinancialCareers, reported earnings, this past quarter. Dice is down again. 6% lower this year, over last year. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Not good. They have a new CEO, as most of you know. Art Zeile. Chad: Art. Joel: Who by the way, spoke at- Chad: TAtech. Joel: TAtech. Chad: TAtech, yeah, yeah. Joel: We begged him for an interview. He's like, "No problem." We never saw him. Chad: He's like, "Yeah, I'll be right there." Joel: Never saw him again. Chad: Yeah. Joel: He was gone, yeah. Chad: He was ninja-ed out of there. Joel: We drove him out. Chad: He's like, fuck this, I'm not doing it. Joel: It's not all bad news, I guess for Dice. Clearancejobs revenue was up 22% higher than the prior year. Chad: It's not all bad news for Dice, they're down in this economy? Are you, who I mean, is anybody? Joel: Well tech is down in this economy. Chad: Is anybody recruiting for technology today, at all? There's a little bit, maybe. Joel: For the listeners, 80% of the hands go up. Chad: Are you freaking kidding me. Yeah, there's a show of hands, sorry guys. Joel: Who uses Dice, anyone? This is the fun part of an interactive show. Chad: There's one, two, okay. Joel: Keep your hand up if you're happy with your Dice experience. We won't name names. Chad: Yeah, zero, okay. Joel: Okay, hand went down, bummer. Chad: So this is what I'm saying, this is bullshit because in this type of an economy, these guys should be killing it. But then you take a look at Clearancejobs, Clearancejobs is killing it. So what are they doing different than what Dice is? Joel: Well there's a need for Clearance. Chad: There's a need for both. Joel: Peeps. Chad: There's a need for both, what are they doing different? Joel: Well you said, what are they doing right? Chad: What are they doing different? Because obviously they're doing something right, what are they doing? Joel: They're one of the only brands out there, for Clearance, I think. I mean there aren't a lot of sites you think about when you need, you know Clearance folks for government and whatever positions. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: But if you said, how do I recruit tech people, you can come up with 20 sites immediately. Chad: It's not cool to be on Dice anymore, is it? I mean if you're- Chris Russell: Sourcing is killing Dice. Chad: Sourcing is killing Dice. Joel: Sourcing is killing Dice from the cheap seats, thank you Chris Russell. Chad: Hey yeah, Chris Russell. Chris Russell. Joel: Nice. Chad: So I mean but it's not cool, is it cool to be in tech on- Joel: Tech people don't want to be on a job board, right? Chad: ... on Dice anymore, is it cool? Joel: If you're the best tech person in the world, do you want to be on a job board called Dice? Chad: No. Joel: You want to be on GitHub, showing off your shit. Chad: Yeah, until LinkedIn screws that shit up. Joel: Do we have anything else to say about Dice? Chad: No. Joel: And DHI? Chad: No, I'm just, they- Joel: Art. Chad: Art. Joel: Come on the show. Chad: Get your shit together Art. Joel: Art, come on the show. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We want to talk to you. Speaking of dinosaurs in the industry, Monster has a survey out this week. Audience: Ah. Joel: Which is a fun little survey. Chad: Yeah and they were down too. Joel: They found that 63% of employees. Chad: Yes. Joel: Dream about a new job all day, every day, every minute of every day. It is true, everyone is an active candidate. Chad: Who's the sorcerer? Good news. Joel: Everyone is an active candidate. Chad: Who's a recruiter? Good news, yes. Joel: Is that all your commentary on that, that you're going to give me? Chad: There's not much to say, I mean seriously. I mean how, what's the ... We were talking about underemployment, I think yesterday, Sean said something about it. That's one of the biggest issues that we see. I mean it, let's just say in one of my verticals that I work in, on the veteran side of the house. Yeah, employment's up but underemployment is horrible for individuals in that sector. Yeah, they have a job but they're incredibly underemployed. Yeah, I mean I'd be thinking about a new god damn job every day too, if I was underemployed and I knew that I was qualified for something more, right? Joel: There's a great quote for those who used to watch the Drew Carey show, The Drew Carey Show. Where he says, "Oh you hate your job, oh there's a group for that, they meet every day at the bar." Anyway. What else did the findings say? Chad: I know. Joel: 8% said they think about a new job on bad days, only 8%. And 3% said they couldn't imagine working a different job because they love their current job so much. That's heartwarming at 3%. Chad: That was because they were taking a survey. Joel: Groundswell of people. Chad: They were taking a survey and they knew that the Google big brother was watching. Joel: Well, you know that is like us, that'd want to talk about it. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Because we like, that kind of stuff. All right moving on to, soon to be dinosaur, Glassdoor. Few tidbits on them. Any Glassdoor users in the audience? Love the interactivity, okay quite a few. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Quite a few. If you're thinking about using Glassdoor, their 30 day trial period is ending, if it hasn't ended already. An email went out to some folks it said, "The 30 day trial is over." Chad: More freebies. Joel: We think that this segues nicely into Indeed, not giving away anything for free anymore. As they bought Glassdoor or at least, their company bought Glassdoor. So Glassdoor and Indeed are basically the same thing. My contention is that, Glassdoor won't be around in a few years. They're going to get hot jobbed. Audience: Hot jobbed, hot jobbed. Joel: The reviews will go over to Indeed. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The job postings are already in Indeed and all the candidates, which is our second news item, will also go to Indeed. So Glassdoor updated their terms and service, this week. Chad: Well wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, time out. Joel: All right. Chad: Everybody knows, I mean Indeed is obviously pushing staffing off of, unless you pay. Because your jobs suck, unless you give us money. And then they don't suck anymore, right? But the thing is, from the, at least insiders that we've talked to, is that it seems like they actually make more money, they being Indeed, after they kick staffing out of their organic. Because they feel like they need it so badly, that they're willing to pay three times as much, in some cases, to be able to get that traffic back. Anybody feeling that, anyone? No names, okay good. Chad: Being able to take a look at Glassdoor, starting to see these, kind of like these Indeed movements, into the Glassdoor space. I mean, where do you think that's actually going to go? Do you think it's going to be one brand and how quick do you think that's going to happen? Joel: Yeah, it doesn't make sense to keep two brands alive, as is. I mean, Indeed already has upgraded their profiles for companies. They've added analytics to that, so I think it's just a matter of time before you're, you have one profile. All their views go over to Indeed, they become this huge monolithic employer review site. Until Google starts getting reviews and or LinkedIn starts having reviews as well. Joel: But it makes no sense to have two sites, they'll bring over some talent. They'll take away any duplicitous jobs, that are with both companies. And I think Indeed is the stronger brand, anyway. It's also very telling that if you were at HR Tech, one of the glaring admissions from the show, was Glassdoor. There was no Glassdoor. Chad: There was no Glassdoor, yeah. Joel: At the show. Chad: Yeah. Joel: HR Tech tends to be a show that a Glassdoor would show up. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And exhibit and they weren't there, which to me was another thing like, why are we spending money when the brand isn't going to be around for much longer. Chad: Google wasn't there, Facebook wasn't there, so I mean. Joel: They don't need to be there. Chad: You can read into it. Joel: Some brands are bigger than HR Tech. Announcer: It's commercial time. Sovren: Sovren Parser, is the most accurate resume and job order, intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today, by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Sovren: We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates, like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Announcer: It's show time. Chad: I don't know that. Joel: Microsoft was there though, remember that? Chad: I mean I see, yeah. Joel: Microsoft had a 10 by 10 booth. Chad: Microsoft had two booths, they had one glorious booth and they had this little one with two guys. It looked like in a garage band. They were like selling Dynamics 365. That's all they were there for, was Dynamics 365. Literally, it was just a regular booth, like garage band. Come on up, guy had like his shirt half tucked in and it was not Microsoft. Joel: Which wasn't as bad as the crowded booth, which had a toilet in the booth. Chad: Yeah that was, yeah. How did you manage that? Joel: Yes, they had it. Chad: Yeah, okay so. Joel: Yeah, it was a 10 by 10, they had a toilet. It wasn't, it didn't have water. It wasn't a working toilet. Chad: Right. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Okay so. Joel: And some graffiti wall on the background. Chad: Yeah, so my take on the whole merging brands, I think it's going to happen just because of the hubris of Indeed. Everybody just believes that everybody is going to come to Indeed anyways. But I don't think it makes a hell of a lot of sense because once again, you're taking two different revenue streams and they're going to smack them together. And they're going to lose in some things. Joel: But it's also two cost centers. Chad: Yeah, in some cases. But they're going to see one brand. Joel: It cost money to run Glassdoor. Chad: When you see one brand and you think that you can squeeze something out of that, and put it to something else, that's some, it's entirely different. Joel: Okay then, okay they may not hot job it, but maybe they'll Simply Hired it, where they just put their jobs on the site. You can still go to Glassdoor, you can still use it but it's all. Chad: You can, posting your blogs on there too. Joel: Plus as an employer, they'd rather you go to one site. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Being Indeed and maybe they'll say, we'll cross post it to Glassdoor for an extra fee. Now in that case, they might keep Glassdoor if they're upgrading the postings. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: But yeah. Chad: I think that's telling though. I mean Simply Hired is still around, I have no clue why. But Simply Hired is still around. Joel: They're still doing surveys, interestingly enough. Chad: And content. Joel: Anyway, we talked about that on the last show. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: But you can't post jobs just on Simply Hired. It's just, Indeed's feed, basically. Chad: Okay, but it still exists. Joel: I think Glassdoor, if it- Chad: But it still exists, that's my point. Joel: Yeah, okay. Chad: That's my point. Joel: For no reason whatsoever, in my opinion, do they exist. Let's talk about strip clubs. Chad: Again, okay. Joel: Because the show is dying, we need to spark it up a little bit. We don't get radio silence on the podcast, we just think everyone is still listening. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Under Armour, a little known company out in Maryland. Apparently strip clubs were an expensable thing. How many of you work at a company that you can expense strip club trips? A couple hands, I like. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Who do you work for? Audience: A staffing company. Joel: Under Armour, okay great, no. Chad: Man Monster, in the early Monster days, I mean I think that was like probably 50% of the expenses back then. Joel: You heard it here first folks. Chad: Not mine, yeah I know. Because we had so many staffing companies, that's why. Clients. Joel: So Under Armour has made it, they've banned strip club trips, being expensable, expendable. Chad: Yeah, whatever. Joel: Expensive, I don't know. Audience: Expensive. Chad: Expensive. Joel: Expensive, there you go, we'll go with that. I don't have a comment, I just think that's really funny that news came out. Chad: Well I think it's interesting that they put an email out. I mean that, okay so they had to put an email out to employees, to announce this. I mean this is not like you know, in 2000 or something like that, right? This is 2018 and this is something that they had to actually adjust to. Then and this also springboards into what happened in Google, was it last week? The protests at Google? Joel: The walkout, yeah. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The big walkout. Chad: I mean how do we do this in 2018? We've got Google one week, who has thousands of Googlers walking out, right? Because of some idiot, who gets a $90 million parachute, out of the company. But thousands and then the next week. Joel: Alleged sexual harasser. Chad: The next week. Joel: You should probably add to that. Chad: Alleged, whatever, he's an asshole. Joel: Idiot is not quite descriptive enough. Chad: Yeah, that's a good call. Joel: Okay. Chad: But the next week, no strip clubs, the next week. Seriously? Joel: One Googler said on the walkout. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Quote, "They told me I'm no longer allowed to talk to anybody about this issue, they recommended therapy." Chad: They recommended therapy, yeah. Announcer: It's commercial time. JobAdX: As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX has been providing job board publishers, direct employers, agencies, RPOs and staffing firms. Dynamic job bidding and realtime ad delivery, through our programmatic job advertising exchange. When we started, we describe JobAdX is AdSense for jobs. Now, we offer much more with switchboard and live alert, completing our full suite of dynamic programmatic advertising tools. With the best of consumer ad tech. Switchboard offers our dynamic technologies to all partner job board feed management. And Live Alert eliminates latency and expired job ads, via email. JobAdX: For more information about any of our ad solutions, please reach out to us at Join Us at JobAdX.com. That's Join Us at J-O-B-A-D-X.com. JobAdX, the best ad tool, providing smarter programmatic, for all your advertising needs. Announcer: It's show time. Chad: That being said. Joel: You know who else we should take a look at, Mr. Shon Burton, CEO and founder of HiringSolved. Audience: Woo! Joel: Come on up Shon. Audience: Woo! Shon: But I didn't. Joel: But we have dollar bills, just in case you change your minds. Chad: Yeah, yeah no, we got, we got. Joel: Jeremy, are we good on time? What do we got? The clock's running but. Chad: Right there, yeah, no, we're good. Joel: Oh it's counting down. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Okay, I'm quick. Chad: That's the smart one. Joel: Oh, we got- Chad: So yesterday there was a fireside chat and we really talked about the real close, who is Shon. We don't care about any of that stuff. We want to know all the cool stuff about Shon. Tell us background and then let's get into the bullshit. Joel: To me, to me Shon is sort of a reclusive CEO. Chad: Because we don't know, yeah. Joel: He doesn't tweet, he doesn't Instagram. Chad: He's stealthy. Joel: He's not snapping. Shon: I do have a Twitter account. Chad: You have a Twitter account? Shon: Yeah, it's actually. Joel: And nobody follows it, so nobody knows. Shon: It's @Shon. Joel: It's @Shon? Oh nice, I'm going to follow. Anybody, who follows him? No one. Shon: Who has a four letter Twitter account, raise your hand? Nobody. Joel: That's good. Shon: That's right, this guy. Okay. They never do. Joel: For me, the genesis of the company, you're not a recruiting guy. I know this is going a way back but for my benefit, I'd love to know how the company started and why? You're an idea guy, which I got from dinner. Why was it this idea that sparked you to action, to found the company? Shon: So I am a recruiting guy. Joel: Oh yeah? Shon: Yeah, I mean I did a brief tour in recruiting. That's how we started the company. I was an engineer that got talked into starting a recruiting company. We talked about this on the fireside chat. Chad: He wasn't here. Joel: I wasn't here. Shon: Oh. Joel: Yeah. Chad: See. Shon: That's what I said. Joel: And our listeners weren't there either. Shon: Sorry, sorry everybody. Joel: There's no toilet in here today. Shon: Yes, so yeah. I was an engineer and I actually hated recruiters at first and then grew to love them because I learned that, I got hired at KPMG and a recruiter enlightened me that I could make more money. They're like, "You're asking for way too little money." That recruiter got me something like a $30,000 a year raise, at the tender age of 25. I loved recruiters after that. Then I went on to start my own consulting firm. The economy took a shit. Joel: What's the timetable on this for you? Shon: This is 2000, this is the economy took a shit in 2008. I'm selling like high end consulting services. One guy, we talked yesterday, one guy we had out at Google for $2400 an hour and he was just billing. We had a little bit of margin in that guy. Joel: Yeah. Shon: Then 2008 hit, my segue into recruiting was, we were working with Google, Apple and a couple other big companies on scalability stuff. End of 2008 hit and we just got called, one after the other, send them home. Your $2400 guy, get him out of here. Then a couple of them starting saying, we'll hire your people because we had- Chad: How did that feel though because that had to be a moment? Shon: Yeah. Chad: I mean that had to be, that kind of had to be the moment, right? Shon: Oh it was yeah, so this was in downtown, we had the little office in downtown San Francisco. At that same time, we had seen a PowerPoint from Sequoia, a venture capital firm. That was like, the party's over. That was the headline. It was that and then a bunch of, it felt like shit. Yeah, it felt like, well I guess we got to figure out something else to do. Joel: So this shit's actually happening, yeah. Shon: This shit's happening. Joel: Yeah. Shon: And like all good consulting firms, we were basically a recruiting firm in disguise. Joel: Yeah. Shon: A thinly veiled recruiting firm. So I said, hey let's do recruiting because these guys are willing to buy our people from us, so let's just make placements. And my two consulting founders didn't want to do that, so we started a recruiting company. You know I was taught recruiting by an awesome nurse recruiter, that used to recruit nurses for one of the bigger public nursing companies. So that's how I got into it. Scaled it up from three people on my couch, on unemployment, to a multi-million dollar company, within about two and a half years. Then just hit a scalability wall, so we were beating our heads against the, we couldn't grow anymore. One of our people left to go to Google and then we started HiringSolved. Chad: Ta-da. Shon: Can I go now? Chad: No, no, so we want- Joel: Wasn't that in Phoenix though? Shon: Yeah. Joel: So how did you get from San Fran to Phoenix and that journey? Shon: We had a little office in San Francisco, about eight recruiters there. At the time, I went out to Phoenix thinking the only way I can scale this recruiting company, at the time my best idea was, I'll go out to Phoenix where recruiters make, you know a good recruiter might make, I don't know 60 grand a year at that time. This was 2010, now. Recruiters are starting to make crazy amounts in San Francisco again, like $100 an hour is starting to go up again, 2010, 2011. Shon: Go out to Phoenix because it's cheap. End up working out of this dusty co-working space. And found a kid walking around with no shoes on, an astrophysics degree and a head as big as the universe. We built, we started building HiringSolved. I started to think, I couldn't find any recruiters actually, I did try to find recruiters. I hosted a free recruiter training, like it got in the newspaper and everything. One person showed up, so I was sucking at that. Joel: What was the conversation like with the bare footed astrophysicist? Like was it, we need to make a business, what should we do or I have this thing? Shon: No. Joel: Like let's grab profiles and searchable? Shon: Yeah. Joel: Like what is that conversation like? Shon: The conversation was, we had about 10,000 resumes in an open-source ATS, called CATS. Anyone know CATS? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yep. Shon: CATS yeah. Joel: CATS One. Shon: PHP, yeah, CATS soon became CATS One. Chad: Yeah. Shon: So the conversation went, so I was maintaining that and had modified it a little bit. It was based on PHP. At 10,000 resumes, it was actually pretty slow to search and it sucked at search. My conversation was, hey kid, I see you're walking around without shoes on, do you think you can make this database faster? Because it, you know I had kind of topped out my skills at MySQL, at that stage. Trevor, his name's Trevor, he's a really brilliant guy and an intuitive sandbagger, so he tells me you know, "I think I can do it in about two weeks." He takes, I let him into the system, he starts looking at it. In about probably two hours, he had taken it down from a minute to search, to under one second. Shon: I was like, "Now let's start talking about what else we could do." In the meantime, again we can't scale. We hit like 2 million, a little over 2 million in revenue. Can't hire recruiters, can't train them up fast enough. We're losing recruiters and we only worked, you know they didn't give us the easy recs, right? Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Shon: In the meantime, I'm kind of like, thinking through, how do we automate this stuff? Like what are we doing every day? I was recruiting myself, I was filling recs, you know. The work was crushing, you know the amount of work we were doing between reading resumes, which we trained heavily on, to be able to do and identify, what a person did in under 30 seconds. But reading resumes and sourcing and you know, it was just killing me. Chad: So right there, that's where I want to shift into the actual Ladders stuff, right? You said the new Ladders survey, as you talk about reading a resume. Shon: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: Has gone from six seconds, to was it 7.4 seconds? Joel: Boy, it's gone up because when the recession was hitting. Chad: Right. Joel: You had so many more resumes, it was like how do I get through this stack faster? Chad: So it's faster. Joel: So it's actually more time now, then it was but based on the recession. Chad: Question is, I mean why is it taking that long in the first place, when you have all this technology to be able to at least, help you through that process? I guess, well here's a big question and maybe this is in the survey, maybe they're getting more qualified candidates, which is why they're taking so much longer. Because they are using, some of this technology. Shon: So they're getting, yeah, the premise though is still that they're reading a bunch of resumes, right? Yeah, I don't know. I think from my perspective, there's a quote by William Gibson, who's one of my favorite authors and he says, "The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed yet." Right? Chad: Especially in HR. Shon: In HR, yeah. No more, more than, nowhere I think in the enterprise, other than HR. When we started this business, we started saying that sales is about 10 years behind consumer. So if you think about Salesforce and its best tech. You can think about consumer is, is Apple, it's Amazon and that type of stuff. Sales about 10 years behind that. HR Tech is about 10 years behind that, when we started the business. That's what it felt like to us. Shon: I'd say that's actually catching up, somewhat quickly on the leading edge of HR Tech, mainly due to a shit load of investment coming into it. But I think the short answer about the resume reading, you know first you have to get tools implemented that work. Then you have to actually trust them, to not duplicate the work they're already doing. A lot, we see, we're building a new version of software right now and we see the issue of trust. Some people trust the software, some people don't. It's the same barrier as, you know my wife has a Tesla, that Tesla has tried to kill us multiple times on autopilot. Would you buy a Tesla today, that didn't have a steering wheel? Chad: No. Shon: No, the humans completely fucking uncomfortable with the idea that, there's no way to override this thing. So somewhere, so we're right in the place right now, in an interesting time in automation where, there's a ton of bullshit. The bullshit wave is caught up in HR Tech. So everybody is saying, "Blah, blah, blah, AI." I saw Phenom people announce today, "AI, blah, blah." That was their press release. Shon: Everyone is saying that and there probably is some really good technology out there. HiringSolved. Somewhere. But there's also a lot of bad stuff and it's hard to tell the difference. And even the good stuff, we're not sure we trust yet. Definitely not enough to just trust it to schedule, you know go through the review process, do everything and have a guy turn up to work tomorrow or a gal, we don't trust it that much because we still need that steering wheel and it might try to kill us. Joel: Well, will we ever? Erik Kostelnik, CEO of TextRecruit. You know he sees a day where, humans don't actually talk to each other, until there's an interview scheduled and someone shows up. Like, will we get to that point? If not, why? And if we do, how long is it going to be till we get there? Shon: I think I read something and I think a number of us are thinking that same thing. Kevin and I were talking, we had a great conversation at dinner last night about that. Kevin, from SAP, everybody. Audience: Woo. Shon: Now. Chad: Oo. Shon: Then and Donna, I think we're going to get there 100%, I think we're going to get there. I think there's still going to be problems in that. Like Donna, from Lowe's was speaking here. We're working with Donna and one of the things she said to us is, "I need to hire 80,000 people in the next six months, right?" Shon: That's a really hard task, no matter how you do it but it's a proving ground for us, to try to figure out how to get to that next phase. The cool thing about some companies is that they are under enough pressure where they're willing to take some risks. That's what's going to have to happen. Chad: Is it on the high volume side, first though? Because I mean, there's a huge need there. Shon: Yeah. Chad: Obviously the workload is just crazy. Shon: Yeah, easy target on the high volume side. High volume side has actually been a really hard problem for us, in automation. You know we work with Staples and it's one thing to say I want a pediatric neurologist or I want you know, some specific technology guy. But it's another thing, you know our technology was driven crazy by trying to follow what the Staples recruiters were doing, which is they would recruit a bartender. They would recruit a sales clerk, they're basically recruiting anyone that they thought wouldn't say fuck off to a customer or something. I'm not exactly sure what it was but it was hard to lock in. Chad: So a bartender would do that by the way, just so you know. Shon: But high volume, there's a lot of need there. Chad: Yeah. Shon: I think what Kevin and I were talking about, he needs to hire 700 developers, right? 700 engineers. If anyone is coding in the room, talk to Kevin. Chad: That's the guy. Shon: I think where the automation is, needs to be in different paces, right? We have another company that is very high tech, one of the leaders in AI. Undisputed in the world. They're getting 40,000 applies, a month. And this is for a high tech job, this is for like you know, very high tech specialized skill job Joel: Yeah. Chad: How do you rip through those, right? Joel: You know, are they automating that process? Shon: Yeah. Joel: Through the funnel and how? Shon: Well the first step is, so we're layering in automation. I think the first step, transparently is, first it's ranking and then it's, is the ranking doing the same thing the human would do? Basically think about it like, the recommendation engine has to make a prediction. The prediction is, I think this person is going to fit. Then if you guys know anything about genetic algorithms, right? Genetic algorithm has a fitness function and the fitness function is, was the prediction right? Did you do the right thing, right? Yes or no, well we know the answer because the person either got hired or got to a first stage interview or whatever. Got an offer and didn't take the job, whatever it is. Shon: I think if you look at those, you know high volume, for us high volume is a challenge. The other scenario, the company can't mention that it's getting 40,000 highly technical applies. It's sort of the same problem though. And it's layering in that automation, trying to get it trained up to a place where, it actually is doing something similar, that makes sense to the human. Which is highly biased by the way because humans are highly biased. Chad: Well, yeah but I mean that's the problem though, right? We take a look at the Amazon side of the house. We have to, there's got to be a place where we stop trying to learn, from humans. I mean because humans are biased, right? I think Jack Ma actually said, "My computers are smarter than any human in this room." Why are we trying to learn behaviors from humans, who we know are biased? How does that make sense? Shon: Well, it makes perfect sense because the humans are the consumer, of that technology, right? Chad: Mm-hmm. Shon: If you take the bias out and you let it- Chad: But you're not going to get any females. Shon: Yes, well if you start letting a machine make a decision for you, without bias, on nutrition say, you'll never eat another french fry, fucking throw that beer away, right now. Because you're not drinking that anymore guys. Get some soy. Chad: No I want it because Shane got it for us. Shon: It's a soy IV, for the rest of your life. Chad: Yeah. Shon: The machine is going to make a decision. If you let the machine make a decision, not on training but on unbiased thing or what's best for you, the human won't like it. Chad: You won't get the sell, at the end, really? Shon: Well you won't get the sell, they won't use the technology because they'll think. All joking aside, our real take on this, my belief on this is that, you have to show humans when they're being biased. That's the best you can do with AI. You can't take the bias out because at the end of the day, if the person shows up to work, even you automated that whole thing and then they show up for work that day, we're humans. Joel: Yeah. Shon: So we're going to smell and do the pheromone thing and size you up and be like, I don't like you, you're going home because I have that power. Joel: Because he was stinky. Shon: Right, so there's going to be bias somewhere. Chad: I'd love to see the UX behind that one. Shon: You can visualize. Chad: You know, you're being bias, yeah. Shon: You can visualize it, yeah. No, I mean the UX is actually, if you think about it, we're working on this right now, it's called diversity analytics. Chad: Ah huh. Shon: It's a product, not a product. It's a feature that plugs into what we do. But it visualizes the hiring pipeline and shows you how diversity is changing. You think you have a problem but maybe you're crushing it on the top of the funnel. Maybe you've got 50% of your job descrip pipeline is females. But if you can visualize how that flows through, at the phone screen, at the first on-site interview. At the second on-site interview, when they interview with Chad and he locks them in a room with a button under his desk and then no one comes back after that. Chad: Nobody knows about that. Shon: And all of a sudden diversity, female diversity dropped by 80%, after meeting with Chad. Joel: Yeah. Shon: We can start to visualize where that problem is, right? I think that becomes very powerful. All joking aside is you know, you can't take the bias out with a machine because I think the human thinks it's wrong. But what you can do with the machine, is you can show the human, yeah right, you're only hiring 22 year old white kids. I'm showing you more 22 year old white kids because that's what you want to hire. You're thumbs-upping Metallica every time, you're only going to hear Metallica. Joel: I have a question, as we're running out of time. On privacy, obviously a huge issue. GDPR over in Europe. How is a person's data used, how is it shared? How is it scrapped from one site to another? Like these seem all like really serious issues for the employment industry because we're dealing with recruiting people and all this data is being shared around. What is your opinion on the future of that? How do services that are using profiles, sort of freely, make it not so illegal in the future, potentially, of using people's private data? Where is your place in that future? Shon: We see it as, it's interesting, we see it as a great opportunity to build experiences that are opt-in. The good news is for us I guess, we deleted 29 million profiles, for Europe. Just to say, we didn't want to deal with it. But we already learned what we needed to learn, from a lot of that data. Now I think it ushers in a new generation, it's not going to be the job board. Like kind of what we were talking about last night. But it does give us, those of us in technology and those of us in this space, it gives us some motivation to create a new experience that is compelling enough for people to want to share their data, even when they know how we're going to use it. Shon: If I can give you something, whether that's advisory, like if I think about the underemployed. If like, underemployment kills me because there's people that can crush these amazing jobs. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Oh yeah. Shon: There's you know, one of the coders I know literally was working at In-N-Out. Saw my friend, my friend went up to order a burger. He had a Ruby on Rails shirt on and the In-N-Out guy, Jeremy is his name, says, "I know what that means." And the guy goes, "Why are you working at an In-N-Out?" And he hired him, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that's an underemployment scenario. Shon: I think if we can build these compelling experiences with all the stuff we've learned, from all this social data. And give them to people, in terms of advisory and in terms of you know, you'll never have to not go, you'll never have to go without knowing what happened to your job application. If you can ask a bot, "Why didn't I get the job?" What's different about me, then the person that did get the job? What do I have to do to be a mechanical engineer at Tesla? I'm 10 years old, what do I need to do, to get there, right? Shon: I think there's some cool, really compelling use cases that we can use. I think, GDPR for us and the California law, what it really does is it, it puts pressure on us to make those compelling experiences and get people opt-in, rather than just scrapping it. Joel: Yeah, I mean to me, the headline of that was, we threw away 29 million resumes because we didn't want to deal with the law. To me, like if that law came into play in the US. Shon: And it is. Joel: How many solutions like yours just say, fuck it, let's do something else? Shon: I mean our solution, thankfully we moved away from social data, as a core to our business. 85% of our revenue comes from our software running on top of customer data. So ATS, HRIS, CRM type data. Chad: Yeah. Shon: So thankfully, we wouldn't have to throw in the towel, if that happened. What we would do literally and what I think a number of you know, the good startups that have the capability would do is, we'd, you'd pivot into something like I said, that gives you the power to go out and get that opt-in. We did an experiment early this year. We knew GDPR was coming. We ran a Facebook bot. We were traditionally, really terrible in trucking and nursing, in terms of social data because you know, those people are not. Chad: Not on as much. Shon: They're not the same as other people on professional networks. We did that on Facebook and we got an incredible, we learned a ton. The test with J.B. Hunt in trucking. We had 20,000 truckers and an 89% engagement with the bot. They would talk to the bot. Sometimes they would call J.B. Hunt, something they're writing with J.B. Hunt. The bot wouldn't know what that meant but they were very angry, in some cases. But we learned a ton from that, that the engagement was huge. Shon: I think there's, you know there's a lot of places we can pivot. I think that's where we're going to get because of GDPR and because of those things, we'll probably see some things that content with LinkedIn and contend you know, some more compelling experiences down the road. That's a good thing. Chad: And that's it kids. Joel: We're out of time. Thanks Shon. Shon: Yeah. Joel: Thanks everybody. Chad: Thanks Shon. Shon: All right, thank you guys. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Shon: Thank you guys, good job. Announcer: This has been the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit ChadCheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #HIREconf #Event #HiringSolved #chatbots #sourcing #LIVE #DICE #DHI #Glassdoor #Indeed #GDPR

At the iCIMS analyst day last month, the boys sat down with Erik Kostelnik, founder and CEO at TextRecruit, a recent acquisition by iCIMS. If you've never heard Erik, you're in for a treat. We talk CareerBuilder, Dice, chatbots, competing with Slack and much more. Michael Wilczak, SVP, Strategy & Corporate Development at iCIMS also joined in. Enjoy this NEXXT exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Announcer: This, The Chad and Cheese Podcast, brought to you in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit tatech.org. Chad: Okay Joel quick question. Joel: Yeah. Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates, or your texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah I know. I call it our Pavlovian dog reflex to text messaging. Joel: Yeah that's probably why text messaging has a freaking 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: Crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why the Chad and Cheese Podcast love Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: Yeah. Love it. Chad: Yep, that's right. Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. Joel: Booomchakabowow.. So if you're in talent acquisition, you want true engagement, and great ROI. That stands for Return on Investment folks, and because this is the Chad and Cheese podcast, you can try your first text to hire campaign for just 25% off, boom. Chad: How do you get this discount? You're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell them Chad. Chad: It's very simple, you go to chadcheese.com, and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area, using the long URL to remember. Just go where you know, chadcheese.com, and Nexxt, with two x's. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangers podcast. Chad Sowash, and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting agency right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinions, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chase and Cheese podcast. Joel: All right, we're recording correct? Chad: Yeah it's what that red light is for. Go ahead. Joel: What's up everybody it's Joel Cheesman here with Chad. We are at the iCIMS Influence Conference in beautiful, historic New Jersey. Chad: Jersey. Joel: Joining here is Erik Kostelnik- I said that wrong. Kostelnik? Erik: Kostelnik. It's alright, I've only known you for 3 years. Joel: Co-founder and CEO of Text Recruit, recent acquisition of I-Sims. Also, Mike Wilczak - Mike: You got it. Nailed it. Joel: He's SVP of Erik as well as strategy. We're late in the day, we're a couple beers in, we wanted to get these guys together and talk about some things. Joel: Erik, for those who don't know Text Recruit, not many of our listeners don't know you- Erik: Yeah. Joel: But give them the quick elevator pitch on what you guys do. Erik: Yeah, it's a candidate and employee engagement platform that leverages chat, text message, and AI to help you hire better people faster. Joel: It's that easy. And the name pretty much says it all. Text Recruit. Chad: Yeah, Message Recruit would be good as well. Erik: That was a little long. That was a little long yeah, it's alright. Erik: You gotta write the ad before you sell the product or or build the product. Mike: You gotta buy the URL, right? I mean that sort of determines the naming. Erik: Unbelievable that was open. I still can't- Chad: No shit? Erik: Yeah dude. Chad: Did you go to GoDaddy? Erik: Of course I did. No joke- Chad: No shit. Erik: I hosted Text Recruit on GoDaddy for the first 3 years. It was only until we got like some money and were like, "Well maybe this is not the right way to do it". I built this site on WordPress. Personally. So everything that you see on our site is all the stuff that I built. Erik: Original branding, original content, all that stuff. Joel: It's not as janky anymore. Erik: It's not as janky, I actually hired a professional to do it now. So yeah. Anyway. Joel: Erik one of the things I thought was interesting was you have a whole suite of products and I think people think of the Text Recruit messaging component. But talk about the two or three other products that you guys offer. Erik: What we did when we started was, we figured out, "Hey, how can we take all these text messages that are happening out there and make them centralized and more professional and compliment?". And we just naturally rolled into leveraging text message for attraction of candidates. Cheesecake Factory was using us in storefronts and on their Craigslist ads, and so we created a product called Text Apply, which helps on the front of the funnel there. Erik: We also found that companies were looking at, this is funny, but they were on our website and they would say, "Hey, what's that chat function that is on your website?" And it was just a lark. It was just intercom or, and they were like, "Well I want that on my career site". I'm like, "Well, why can't just make that for you?" And that became job chat, it's now Live Chat. Erik: And the Text HR side of things, it just was natural to progress into the onboarding experience and helping these candidates get onboarded as they become employees, since that became Text HR. Erik: As we moved down the funnel, UPS came to us and said, "Hey, can you help us managing all communications for our entire temporary workforce for the seasonal hiring, not just to get them onboard, but actually to build software to help engage them through this whole entire season, so we don't have to issue everybody phones", and it ended up being Text Reach. So we still to this day leverage that platform for those guys. Erik: Obviously, this sweeter products we didn't think it was gonna be this, we thought it was gonna be Text Recruit, but part of our core values has always been, much like iCIMS, it's always listen to customer, and we're customer founded and customer driven. And ultimately that lead us to these additional revenue channels and value for customers. Joel: If the customer will pay for it, we'll build. Erik: I'm a salesman, so I'll build you what you need, I'll sell it to you. Chad: So Mike, how do you figure into this whole thing? You always keeping the reins on Erik? You let him- what's going on here? Mike: I don't know if there's keeping any reins on Erik! Chad: He doesn't have flip flops on right now. Erik: No, they made me wear shoes. Mike: You look very professional today, even with the boutonniere. Erik: Fantastic. Mike: He looks like he's going to the prom after this. Mike: I lead the strategy and acquisition Text Recruit from the iCIMS side, so part of my role is to incubate that and make sure that it's successful coming out of the gate with us. Then once we've got a great comfort level, just make it a part of our normal business. So we're in that phase right now, and it's been fantastic over the last 9 months to see this company continue to grow. Chad: It's your job to sit and watch. Is that what it is? To watch kind of the incubation period? Really you were helping along the road of, "Hey, this is what you need to do to be able to get seen by us", I mean, what's all- Mike: Yeah, it's a bit of a story there. I think I met Erik probably four and half, five years ago now. I had just joined iCIMS, I didn't come from this space. I really didn't know much about HR Tech. Pat Crest has a great SaaS conference every year in Vail, Colorado- Erik: It's Key Bank now, but yeah. Mike: Key Bank yeah. So I went out there and they put together a number of meetings for me. Kind of '30 minute Speed Dating pitch an idea to another company' kind of thing. And Erik and Jedd came in with a PowerPoint deck talking about how they were gonna kill this category and I thought, "Wow, that's an amazing feature!". Chad: Yeah. Mike: We've got to be doing this, right? Every ATS- Joel: What year was this? Erik: 2014. Joel: Okay. Mike: 2014. Every recruiting software company has to be doing this, right? I found out we weren't. My guy says to Erik, he says, "Look, it's a really interesting capability but you've got to broaden it. You've got to get more of a platform, more of portfolio of products, not just this one component", and man, over the last four years we've just seen him broaden the product portfolio, we've seen him add a lot of our customers to his customer base. Mike: So when we were looking at this deal, we took it to the board and the board literally said, "This is the most logical acquisition we've ever seen". Chad: Now you simplified, but you cheated a little bit, right? Text Recruit was integrated into iCIMS, you sort of saw the growth in the numbers. Joel: That's the incubation period. Chad: You need a little bit about what you were getting into correct? Mike: Yeah, totally right? So, at the same time that Erik was building his business, we were building our platform strategy, which was enabling other companies building products to plug into us and to integrate with us, right? He had the foresight to say, "Look, if we're going to go build this product that works with ATS providers and CRM tools, that we should build it to their specifications and via their platform". Mike: I think that greased a lot of the sellability of the product of our customer base. So we started holding them up, "Hey, this is what a great product integration looks like". So we were able to see the two big hurdles to M&A in software is, 'How does that product work with yours' and 'Will your customers buy it?'. We were able to see both of those things. It's been fantastic. Chad: So tell us the Dice story. Erik: I had just gotten off of the identified acquisition, right? That was another big tile. SVP of monetization and sales strategy for Identified, which funny enough, became Work Days acquisition and became their shitty ATS now. That's kind of what it's became. Erik: So, fast forward, I was able to get out of that situation and say, "Okay, what do I want to do? I have this idea" and I pitched my buddy on it, Ryan Chad, he's my co-founder and he said, "I think we can do this, I think I can sell this". Erik: So he built the product and we got customers going. Then it was like, "Hey, let's be agnostic, let's actually go to all our contacts all over this ecosphere", and part of that was going to Job Boards. I'm an ex Career Builder guy and learned a lot there and learned that, "Look, these are the types of job boards that we should look at working with", so Dice happened to be right down the street in San Jose and walked down to- got the train. I was living in San Francisco, got off the train, went to 225 Santa Clara, walked upstairs, beautiful 11th floor in downtown Santa Clara, or downtown San Jose on Santa Clara street. Erik: Go into this big board room and all the executive staff are from Dice is there and I start pitching. I start pitching Text Recruit and capabilities and how we can change the way that they're engaging with all their candidates and their massive databases and create drip marketing. Chad: So it's a room full of people just- Erik: Yeah, all the executives, all of them. 'Cause they were like, "What is going on with this?", 'cause we were gaining traction already. It was really interesting because I left the meeting feeling like, "Oh man, I feel like I killed that, right. This is great and it's another engagement platform, we're gonna manage all text communication for Dice, it's gonna be massive". And I got an email like a week later, "Hey we just don't think it's going to be right for us. We don't think it's going to be very professional to text and communicate for jobs". Erik: I was like, "Wow. Okay". Total miss, whatever, I move on. Fast forward four years, we just took over the Dice space in downtown San Jose, so- Chad: Life's like that man. Erik: It's amazing how things kind of come back around and you know, things change and new companies have to evolve. I think that's a big learning- and one of the key reasons why we chose iCIMS candidly, was that you gotta hook your horse to something and someone. We knew that there's going to be a lot of challenges along the way in building up a really big company. We built a pretty big company, but not like a multi-billion dollar company. Which is what all VC's want, right? Erik: To build a multi-billion dollar company, you have to have a little bit more than what just Text Recruit was. So I was real about that. But we knew iCIMS was changing the way that they had been doing business. And it wasn't just a 15 year old company, it actually was something that was becoming a new way of doing business in the HR space and Unify was part of that. But also the way these guys were looking at strategy and how to build this company out. Obviously it's worked for them and it worked for us, so I think it's good stuff. Chad: So I have your one sheet here of your material and what you guys do. And I'm reading Text HR, communicate with employees over text message and live chat at scale and Text Reach, manage projects and coordinate with your employees over text message. Erik: Yeah. Chad: That sounds a lot to me like Slack. Am I off base there or not? Erik: You're not. That was the vision for Text Reach. I'd say like, if we didn't go through this acquisition, we'd be probably doubling down on Text Reach right now. We believe that Text Reach, candidly, is a competitor of Slack on the white collar or hourly work forces that don't have smart phones or don't have access to corporate email address]. Erik: So generally, when you have Slack, you have corporate email addresses that you send out invites to, and then you have your Slack that happens. Erik: But in the blue collar workforces, all of our customer based, those out of the hourly workforces, you don't have the ability to send out corporate emails. You can't invite them to corporate chat functions because it just doesn't work for those. Companies like Crew and some of these other systems that are trying to be Slack for the hourly, I just didn't believe it was gonna work because everybody communicates via text. Erik: So if I can do the same thing that we did for recruiting, and put it into a managers hands to communicate with it's existing employees and group texts without sharing personal data of the employees as well as the manager, that could become a very big company. Erik: That's what our VC's originally saw within that application and that's why they were gonna be willing to give us $15 millions if we didn't get acquired because we were gonna build that out. That's kind of the thing, you take this strategy, you take what you think is right for the time, and ultimately iCIMS did a good job by positioning itself in what we could do together. Chad: I'm gonna do a quick re-direct. So you guys, talking about this product, you can actually get sentiment. Employee sentiment, so at that point, you know if they're happy, sad, all that other- and we were talking last night, kind of laughing about Glint saying how much money and just the other disbelief in Mike's eyes last night at dinner. Mike: I still believe. Chad: So what do you think about that? $400-500 million on Glint. Mike: I hadn't heard that number before so that seems like a massive amount of value. Chad: Yeah. Mike: Especially for a CEO who said he built it for the good of humanity. I almost felt like he needed to give it away after all of that. Erik: Jesus. Chad: He probably felt like he was giving it away. Erik: How much money did he take on? Mike: I think it's a recognition of the fact that Length is trying to broaden it's tam. It's trying to get into something beyond talent acquisition and start looking at more of the talent engagement side. I'm sure it makes sense for them, I'm sure they've got a whole thesis around how they're going to take that product and get $400-500 million worth of value out of it. Chad: So I won't ask you to tell me the next companies that you're gonna acquire, but what are- Mike, what are some of the segments or overall, themes that iCIMS going to be looking at getting into in the next two, three, five years? Mike: That's a great question, right? We just did this round with Vista and I think the output of that is to step on the gas. We've built what we think is the category killer in talent acquisition software. How do then take this platform that we've built, that has scale in a market that has an incredible amount of data and now turn that loose to create something that's incredibly more valuable? Mike: For us, it's not getting out of talent acquisition. It's doubling down on talent acquisition. What we're looking at is things that we must more up-funnel and enable our customers to really leverage our product, not just to manage workflow, but to actually do sourcing. Mike: That ability to connect candidates and to connect candidates to hiring companies and to make those matches is really interesting to us. We think we have unique data that enables us to do that in a way that's completely different than the way companies are doing it today. Chad: So iCIMS has changed, I mean really, the outlook. Wasn't an acquisition kind of a focus before? You have put your foot on the pedal, especially with Vista money. So why? Why the change? What did you see- what was happening in the market that made pretty much the executive team, everybody say, "We've got to do shit differently?". Mike: I think it's just a matter of life cycle. When we were a smaller company, we were focused on how do we grow and do it at a manageable pace. Things fell into place the last couple of years that have given us more confidence in the ability to do M&A. You need scale in a market because you have to be able to afford to go buy something new. Our valuation, because of our growth, gives us that ability to write a check. Our cashflow provides us with a lot of cash that we can use in order to deploy to do M&A. I think this recognition that there's so much innovation that's happening in this space that we don't have to build everything ourselves. Mike: That was the whole thesis around the ecosystem model. Let the ecosystem build things, see what's working, see what our customers are buying and then use our ability to fund a deal to step in and acquire the leadership categories. Chad: A question for both of you- there's been a lot of change in the ATS talent management space here. You've seen nuts like LinkedIn getting into the HS game, of course we talk about Google Hire quite a bit on the show, you see smaller players, enterprise players, there's just a lot going on. And you guys sort of seem, not necessarily in the middle, but you definitely don't play in the small, the bottom tier. You see these big companies, not only LinkedIn and Microsoft and Facebook and Google, but I could throw in potentially Sales Force, I could throw in Amazon. Where is iCIMS place and maybe the same tier of ATS or talent management system? Where do you guys fit into the new ecosystem going forward? Erik: You talking about from a positioning in the market, what segments of the market we're focused on or how do we see ourselves positioning with Amazon and LinkedIn and Google and everyone getting in the space. Chad: So if I'm a customer, what does the customer look like that you think will choose iCIMS versus a Smart Recruiter or Job Score or someone's that gonna choose LinkedIn? Erik: Yeah totally. I think at our core, we are a company that tries to focus on simplifying the complexity of recruiting, right? If you're a company who has very basic requirements, you hire one persona, you don't hire a lot of people per year, you're probably not our best customer. But if you hire lots of different types of roles, from lots of different sources, lots of different hiring types, like hourly and professional and those kinds of things, then there's a lot of complexity around that. You can't source all of your candidates from one place, you can't manage them through the workflow the same way. That's where we fit. Our tools are really designed to simplify the complexity of the recruiting workflow, to simplify the complexity of engaging and managing candidates, to simplify the complexity of finding candidates. Honestly, to simplify the complexity of plugging all of these other peripheral tools that companies are using. Erik: The way that we fit in the market is also that we are that system of record. People view our product as that first system that they put in and that becomes your hub and everything else then plugs in to that hub. One core workflow tool, one data repository, one analytics engine that you're using for your hiring process. Mike: What he said. Chad: Erik, messaging is hot. It's the number one activity on mobile devices. Obviously mobile is hot. I'm curious your perspective on, there's got to be something next. What is next? Is it voice? Is it- Erik: Next for me or next for the industry? Chad: Industry or the world at large. Erik: The world at large. Chad: Something like voice messaging? Erik: No, I mean- Chad: Video? Erik: I think what you're going to find is that there's not going to be anything created, unfortunately. It's all in front of us. So everything that is the future is already built. It's really the question of, how do you take what is already built and optimize it for specific problems? And how do you create solutions for, with existing technology for existing problems? Erik: The problems have been identified within the HR world, it's finding candidates, getting them into the system, getting them through a hiring cycle, hiring them, onboarding them, and then keeping them. Erik: If we know all the problems that happen within those, then all you have to think about is, how do you build solutions that will optimize each part of that funnel. Ultimately, you have the lowest first run yield that you could possibly get, the highest first run yield you could possibly get. Erik: There's a couple of things that you can use to do that. You can use products that will help you automate systems and maybe that's automating the way, taking a chat bot and making it something that is a voice. Or maybe it's creating an interview process that leverages all of the AI components to help understand 'is this person lying or not?', or what type of communication are they having? What are the sentiments that's going on? Erik: Or you just take something- this is way out there but- something like quantum computing, which I was at TechCrunch and I saw the Watson Cubist computer. If you start processing all these things faster, and you put problems into these Quantum computers that actually can solve problems at a exponential rate from existing computing power, then it becomes really crazy. Then all you have to do is the same exact base time that you currently have but then you put it in something like a Quantum computer and out puts, you're going to get an exponential out put on it. Erik: That's like, super heady, and way in the future and I doubt that it's going to come to HR first. We're going to have that in sales and marketing first, my guess is. Chad: HR can't spell programmatic. Erik: Right, right. Programmatic is a big thing for us and our industry, but it takes a while to catch up. I think the net of it is, I believe there's still a lot of disruption with existing technologies out there. I think there's a lot that AI can do and machine learning. I think matching is broken, which I think probably is a significant problem that no one can solve. I think that's probably next- Chad: You think so? Erik: I mean, I think matching candidates is really hard when you have horrible data, which anybody that says they have great data in their ATS is lying. Nobody has great data. Everybody tries to bypass the application process. They do that with Text Recruit. Its not like the data's getting better, it's gonna get worse. Chad: We're seeing problems though, like Google is building a models on the job- Erik: And Amazon is doing models too. Chad: Exactly. Everyone is building models so you keep building these ontologies because we know that job descriptions are always gonna suck, and that resumes are always gonna suck. So, really focusing on the job titles and the company, the type of company, along with the actual resume and the type of job that that individual actually did. And trying to make the match there as opposed to all the fluff and bullshit that's in, or not in the job description or resume. Chad: You don't think really? Erik: I don't know, because then it's easy to gain. If you're a candidate then you're just gaming the system and then like, where's the cross-referencing on it. I think there's a lot of holes in there from both sides. I think there's a lot of holes, when we talk about bias and the matching technology based on what you think it is. Erik: Also, what candidates- candidates are humans, they are filled with holes. How do you figure that out and connect the two and you have two processes that are really hard. Application and showing interesting in something and a labor force that's massive and then technology from the company's side of matching these jobs, which is really hard. Erik: I think it's a really hard problem and I don't think there's enough money into it right now. What do you think about it Mike? It's- Mike: I think there's always that disruption curve where things get incredibly hyped and everybody's talking about it. You're good at HR tech and everybody's an AI company and- Chad: AI and blockchain- Mike: Yeah, right. Everybody's going to be Quantum computing in about four years by the way. You're going to go to HR tech and be like, "Erik was right! There's Quantum computing everywhere here!". Mike: The marketing organizations get out in front of that and create a lot of that hype. But then it does go into that trough of disillusionment. Then from there, it gets incrementally better over time and people start to understand how to adopt this stuff, so I think there is going to be continued disruption, but I think it's going to be micro-disruptions, I don't think it's this big bang kind of change that we're going to see in the market. Chad: So on the startup side, Mike. If I'm a startup and I'm listening to this, what kind of advice can you give me? Kind of the same kind of advice you might've given Erik. Mike: So maybe two things. To Erik's credit, what he tapped into was that he recognized that there was a need in the market that was not fulfilled. You made the comment earlier of, "Hey let's go build something", and then who pays for it, right? There are a lot of things that people can build, but there aren't a lot of things that people will pay for. Mike: So find that thing that somebody's willing to actually pay for and build around that. Put that into the market, the market will tell you if it's good or not. Then you can get better from there and you can evolve your product from there. Mike: That's the key to software development, right? It's not getting to the market with the best product, it's getting to the market with the product and then making it better over time. Mike: I think the other piece of it, and we've seen it in our business, it's just been religious devotion to focus. You can't be good at everything, and the more things you try to be good at, the less you're good at anything. So, when you're starting out, you don't have sales resources, you don't have product development resources. Mike: We started off as a Saas business by design because we could only afford to spend money on building one thing. We couldn't customize it for everybody, right? We can only afford to market for one thing. So that's my advice- pick a category where you think people would value it and pay money for it. Then stay focused on that until you get to enough scale where you can start broadening out from there. Chad: Erik, you have some pretty strong opinions on the future of my- Erik: I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. Erik: Love all those guys by the way. I'm a big Ale fan, a big Erin fan, I don't know the founder of AllyO, but I'm sure we'd be buddies. Erik: They all know my position on it right, I've been on panels with them and talked about how- Chad: The listeners don't. Erik: Okay, so. There is, like Mike said, there's a massive hype cycle happening right now. It's like lemmings jumping off a cliff in VC land. It's really hard to find good companies right now as a VC. They are giving, they are trying so damn hard because there's so much money out there by the way, when there's tons of money and not so much supply, it just becomes a market for these guys that are traditional founders that have had raises before or incredibly successful exits as employees to establish themselves as the next best thing and raise as much capital as they want. Erik: Now, Aaron at Paradox hasn't done that yet, but it feels like he's gearing up based on the size of the booth and everything we saw at HR Tech. The reality is, I think that they're going to have to pivot to do something else. And I think that they are smart enough to think about doing that now. That is creating something other than just being a chat bot for recruiting and replacing the whole entire recruitment piece of the biz. Like, doing all of recruitment is pretty much impossible at this point. You're always going to have human intervention in there. Erik: As a company, you don't want a robot hiring your whole entire workforce. As a CEO, you'd be like, "Are you fucking crazy? Absolutely not! Absolutely not, I want to hire my own people". Right? So I think there's a disillusionment of that piece. Erik: I think there's going to be four winners within AI. It's going to be commoditized, it's already commoditized because I use it with IBM. So IBM, Google, Amazon, and- Chad: Microsoft. Erik: Microsoft, thank you. I always forget them. It's been a long day. Erik: So those four are, and that's a big maybe, but those four a really gonna be the key plug-ins if you want to build a chat bot or if you want to match technology or do NLP. They go and plug it in to all your data and come up with insights, it's all commoditized and you're gonna do it based on API call. That's available today- you want to go build a chat bot, go do it. Erik: You also want to go build a little testing platform, that's fine, but you want to do everything together, that's a platform. Live Chat, text, chat bot, integration, communication, platform, automation and marketing- all that stuff is very important to have as a platform. That's why we've succeeded. Erik: I find it really difficult for them to be as successful as they need to be to have a good exit with raising that much capital. I have a hard time believing they're gonna get there with what their current product set is. Mike: I'm convinced there's a mathematical equation where you can take the amount of money raised, divided by the square foot of the booth at HR Tech, equals company longevity, right? Erik: Yes! That honestly might be fun to run. What's the size- we've always done 10x10. And we're in like a startup little area. We were in a startup little area until last year. That never meant anything to us. Honestly, the companies that wanted to see us, came and saw us. Chad: Playing devil's advocate- Erik: Sure. Chad: I could come back and say, "Oh, text messaging, I can go get a Twilio account and set up some basic text messaging platform dashboard for people". I obviously know you believe it's a product versus a- Erik: Feature. Chad: Feature. But tell the audience why that is. Why is text messaging a stand alone product? Erik: If you want to go build a little texting component, or use Google Voice, like Google Voice is a great entry point into texting. If you want to use Google Voice and then just test out texting professionally, that is a key thing. And then Twilio too, you can build a little Twiio application too. Erik: The problem that you have is that when you want to have two-way communication, you want to have more than two-way communication, so campaign based communication, you want to put AI on that, you want to ingrate automation to it, and then you want to be able to track across all your recruiters and share communication within the applicant tracking system. In addition to doing live chat and all these other functions that gotta be connected. Erik: Short quote codes, tracking candidates, all this stuff that we've done. It's really hard to build that successfully and make it easy to explain and have have companies buy into it and see the value. We heard Laurel today, all three of those, St. Jude, Hertz, and Advanced Solutions all text recruit customers. All iCIMS customers. They all use it completely differently. Chad: Yeah. Erik: I wish everybody would use it like Laurel. That was incredible listening how she, I didn't even know that man. Chad: Those are best practices that you can start to kind of roll out in messaging, right? Erik: Yeah, and that's the best thing you can get out of these customer events and analyst events. You learn stuff about your company that you never would've heard from your customer base. Erik: That's something we heard about, the Glass Door thing was crazy. I was like, we actually impacted their overall rating on Glass Door. I think that's a great little add-on for Glass Door. Like, "Hey, Glass Door, we should probably partner". Chad: A little background, a little context, for all your talent acquisition professionals out there, you need think harder about how you use a lot of these tools because there are some really good fucking ways you can do it. Chad: That was Hertz, what that Hertz? Erik: That was Advantage. Chad: That was Advantage. Chad: Okay, last question is for both of you, I'm going to start with Erik though. Me being an old Monster guy, I kind of watch what Monster does and it pisses me off because I get so frustrated to watch their movements. You're an old Career Builder guy, so you've got to be frustrated as hell when they come out with stupid shit like augmented reality and so, tell me what the hell's going on over there? Erik: I don't want to create that many enemies in this- I love Career Builder, let me just preface this. I will never say a bad thing about CB outside of they've made some poor decisions along the past. Erik: I will tell you that training system and the people I met there were absolutely incredible. Chad: So its sales training system? Erik: Sales training system, leadership training- that's where I cut my teeth in leadership. I will say nothing but great things about that company and their, at the time, executive staff. Erik: I had a good experience there, it lead me to where I am today. There certainly has been a shift, here's the difference. Apollo is a much difference PE company than Vista. Chad: Oh yeah. Erik: And you can already tell that. And Career Builder is a much different company than Accent. There's two directions that you're going in there and there's two types of PE companies. The one that Career Builder is involved with right now, is absolutely one that's a turnaround. They're gonna try hardest to- Number 1, catch a hype cycle because they want to become cool again, and it's kind of like a dude in his 40's, like wearing earrings, or doing something like going to 20-year old clubs. You look at him and it's kind of sad. I don't know, it's a little bit sad, you want them to turn around, be like, "Dude, it's never gonna work, I'm sorry", you gotta figure out what's better for you. Erik: When they release something that is obviously part of hype cycle, there's really no value within the marketplace, outside of just like, "Look what I can do", then it's a little sad. Chad: So, Mike, not a being Career Builder guy, but still, looking at the industry, what the hell are they doing over there? Mike: Yeah! So I don't want to speak about any one company, maybe I'll just bring it up to a higher level. For me, I think that lore of being out front and competing on product innovation is what a lot of companies try to do and they mature and want to repurpose themselves. Chad: So do you think AR is that though? Mike: No, I can't imagine that that's gonna change the game for them specifically. Companies need to decide what they want to compete on, right? It's easy to say, "We're gonna compete on product innovation", but it's hard to actually do it really well and do things that customers value. Mike: Obviously iCIMS, our secret sauce is operational excellence. Ideas are cheap, execution is really expensive. Chad: Yeah, that's the hard part. Mike: And that's the hard part. Erik: You never know, it could be amazing, they could kill it with this because they just have a badass sales force. They could go out there and sell the thing and it's all churn. It's all gonna churn. They might be able to show results and that's any business, that is a hype cycle business. Chad: They have good product though. Talent discovery, that's not a shitty product- Erik: No totally. Chad: Right? But they're not pushing it! That's the thing, so anyway. Mike: That's it, focus. Find the things that your customers really value, figure how you operationalize around that and focus there. Erik: Dude they make a lot of money and they got a lot of smart people at that organization. They gotta be looking at something that we can't look at. I think the same thing with Monster, Monster has really interesting leadership, they've upgraded from a leadership perspective. Chad: Oh yeah. Erik: They're gonna have to make sure that they make some good moves within the market for this to all work out for them as well. Chad: You have to hope that that legacy anchor doesn't drag them down. Chad: Okay guys, Mike, Erik, appreciate you taking the time. Erik: Thanks guys. Mike: Appreciate it. Erik: Take care. Joel: Okay, okay. Before we go, since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again this was all by elegant design. It's all by Text to Hire and it's all about Nexxt and Elegant Design. So go to chadcheese.com, click on the Nexxt logo, and get 25, yeah I said 25% off your first Text to Hire campaign. Joel: Engage better, use Text to Hire from Nexxt. Two x's. Booyah! Announcer: This has been a Chad and Chee podcast. Subscribe on I-Tunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #TextRecruit #text #iCims #iCIMSiNFLUENCE #Event #chatbots #Chatbot #Dice #Careerbuilder

Welcome to the last installment of this three-part Chad & Cheese iCIMS iNFLUENCE 2018 Series. In mid-Oct when Joel and I flew to NJ and landed at iCIMS HQ we really didn't know what to expect. What we got was an event where Colin Day, iCIMS CEO and Chairman of the Board along with other iCIMS leaders shared their common vision for more than just iCIMS. It was a vision for the industry and how iCIMS was going to take the lead in reinventing it. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions' clients are changing the lives of people with disabilities, including veterans with service related disabilities. We're starting out this final episode with the sweetest sound to Colin Day's ears. Colin - Well guess what, GDPR comes along it's the sweetest thing we've ever heard. I know its annoyance for some or whatever, but it needed to happen. So, all of the sudden GDPR gets launched, candidates actually have rights, they should know what you're storing on them. They should be able to edit it, archive it, delete it, update their preferences. And that quieted these boards down a little bit. Colin - Even better, this thing called Cambridge Analytica happens, and that really begins to quiet down the boards. Now they aren't going to remain quiet forever because their whole business model is in jeopardy if they don't get the (hiring) signal data. Our viewpoint is, we have the opportunity to not only go to GDPR but to take it even further. We want to be the moral compass for data security and privacy in our industry. We really really do. Colin - So we're creating something call PASSPORT, and Passport some of it you've heard before. This is kind of the create a single passport, single click applies. Make it dead easy. So, for the customer the benefit will be candidate experience. The candidate will come in - if they haven't created an iCIMS Passport - they can create one. If they've already created one, we're talking single click apply in to other companies. While they're in their passport they have their data rights. We can show them everyone (organizations) they've applied to, what's going on. They can say I'm okay sharing some of that (data) with LinkedIn or I'm fine if you send that over to background check. They can get a history and because we have a modern communications platform, they can say how they want to be communicated with "Stop texting me", "Stop emailing me" full their rights. Chad - (Laughing) Remember JobFox, AllianceQ and even Taleo tried a Universal resume, but none of these efforts had the hammer of compliance and regulation not to mention the nasty stench of Cambridge Analytica to drive their efforts. iCIMS has found the perfect time to focus on creating a universal system predicated on protecting THE CANDIDATE. But how will the candidate PASSPORT play bring it all together? Colin - This is true end-to-end recruiting. This is why I'm so excited about the future. We've never been there. You know we've been the ATS but we've been reliant on "What is Google doing?", "What are the boards doing?" or "What are the third-party sites doing?". This is the first time we can say we're gonna go in, full bore end-to-end. So, we talk about, we will be right there when you post your jobs. We don't want third-parties. We want to be right in there posting the jobs. We want to be right there when Google hands-off the traffic to your career site or you get it with programmatic advertising with a next generation of career portal. We want to be right there when the candidate applies. Hopefully they've built their passport already. If not, very easy to build a passport and we'll show them everything they've ever applied to, all their data. When they update that data now you're going to see the power of the marketplace. We can be that, not only through all of our products, but through the entire industry. Chad - But the Enterprise Talent Management System buy is tedious and time consuming at best. You'll have to wait years until some companies are even ready to talk about this new integrated end-to-end system. In the meantime, how will iCIMS get their foot in the door and penetrate the market? aka drive new revenues? Colin - How important is it to have these foot-in-the-door products? That when you walk into any unique customer you can say we can get you on our entire tech stack, starting with the ATS. Wonderful. If we can't, let's get you with the CRM, if we can't let's get you with our new Offer module, which we are going to building as portable as well. Let's get you with TextRecruit and you'll see some other things that we're coming out with... Chad - There it is... Most Enterprise systems aren't complete at all, so iCIMS new modular product design will allow them to target competitors weaknesses and attack with a smile. Knowing this you can imagine iCIMS sinking further into client relationships where their probability of winning the full Enterprise buy down the road increases dramatically. Chad - So that's it kids... In this series we've heard how iCIMS is Working with Google Talent Solutions, creating a slow lane for job boards as iCIMS speeds by, getting rid of the user experience middlemen, embracing GDPR and attacking the market holistically and in chunks. If you missed any of these episodes, or just want a quick review -- You can find the entire iCIMS iNFLUENCE 2018 3-part series at chadcheese.com... #iCims #iCIMSiNFLUENCE #TextRecruit #text #ATS #CRM #GDPR #jobboards #Programmatic

The RUSSIANS are coming!! We were totally unprepared for this chatbot startup. Mostly, because of the mere fact that they're so far off the radar. They sound more like a Marvel villain. Boy, we did not see the Firing Squad that unfolded coming. How'd it go? Gotta listen to this Talroo exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides comprehensive website accessibility testing with personalized recommendations to enhance usability for people with a variety of disabilities or situational limitations. Chad: Hey, Joel. Joel: What up? Chad: Would you say that companies find it hard to attract the right candidates to apply for their jobs? Joel: Well, Jobs2Careers thought so. Chad: Jobs2Careers? You mean Talroo. Joel: Talroo? Chad: Yeah, Talroo. T-A-L-R-O-O. Joel: What is that, like a cross between talent and a kangaroo? Chad: No. It's a cross between talent and recruiting. Joel: But- Chad: Talroo is focused on predicting, optimizing, and delivering talent directly to your email or ATS. Joel: Ah, okay, so it's totally data driven talent attraction, which means the Talroo platform enables recruiters to reach the right talent at the right time and at the right price. Chad: Okay, so that was weirdly intuitive, but yes. Guess what the best part is? Joel: Let me take a shot here. You only pay for the candidates Talroo delivers. Chad: Holy shit. Okay, so you've heard this before. So if you're out there listening in podcast land and you are attracting the wrong candidates, and we know you are. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: Or you feel like you're in a recruiting hamster wheel and there's just no where to go, you can go to Talroo.com/attract. Again, that's Talroo.com/attract and learn how Talroo can get you better candidates for less cash. Joel: Or just go to chadcheese.com and click on the Talroo logo. I'm all about the simple. Chad: You are a simple man. Thad: Yes, my precious, yes. My most precious candidates sweet, precious, yes. Announcer: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids. The Chad and Cheese podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Yeah. Chad: There it is. Joel: It's been too long since we've had a Firing Squad. Chad: Damn. Joel: Hey everybody, this is Cheese and that guy, whatever, is Chad. Our special guest today, special startup today is XOR.AI. Chad: XOR. Joel: We'll get to the name in a second, but representing XOR is their CEO and founder, Aida Fazylova. Aida, how are you? Aida: I'm good, thank you. Joel: Good. Love that you're here. Give our audience a quick elevator pitch on you and then we'll get to the rules and then get to your company. Aida: Yeah, sure. My name is Aida, I'm founder of XOR. Prior to founding XOR, I've been working in IT recruitment for six years, and the company was born out of by personal pain. Joel: That's good. Aida: What frustrated me was working as a recruiter was that 60% of my working hours I was spending doing routine and repeated tasks like prescreening the resumes, scheduling the interviews, so this is why I found a co-founder two years ago and we founded this company. Chad: Cool. Joel: Aida is Russian if you couldn't tell from the accent but lives in Austin, Texas, which I think is very cool. Chad: Yeah. Our first Russian. Joel: Our first Russian, yes. We're very international on the Firing Squad. Chad, read her the rules and we'll get to XOR. Chad: Okay, Aida. You will have two minutes to pitch XOR.ai. At the end of two minutes, you will hear the bell, then Joel and I will hit you up with rapid fire Q&A. If your answers aren't concise enough, Joel is either gonna hit you with the bell or crickets, which means you need to tighten up your game, quit being so long in the- Joel: Move it on. Chad: Yeah, keep it moving on. At the end of Q&A, you're gonna receive one of three, big applause. Joel: Oh, you'd go with that one first. It's the last one on the sound board. Chad: Which means you've exceeded expectations and you're kicking ass, taking names, or we believe you're going to. A golf clap, you're on your way but you do have a lot of work to do, or last but not least, the firing squad. Joel: No. Chad: Which means it's probably time to pack your shit up and go home. So that's the Firing Squad. It's time to carve up your jack-o-lantern and show it to the judges. Okay, Joel, are you ready to- Joel: Halloween reference, I like that. Chad: You like that? Are you ready to start that pitch timer? Joel: I think Aida's still here. Okay Aida, you've got two minutes starting. Aida: Yeah. So at XOR, we help employees to accelerate and streamline their recruiting efforts using chatbots and AI, so we automate the initial candidate engagement, prescreening, scheduling, answering frequently asked questions, and work with cold candidate database from your ATS. The implementation of our customers experience three main things, first one is decreasing the time to hire by third, decreasing the cost per hire by half, and significant improvement in candidate experience and increasing the conversion rate from visit to apply by 85%. Aida: So we've been in the market for two years now. So far we've processed over two million candidates. Right now we work with 121 corporate customers in 15 countries, both direct employees and staffing agencies. We are at 1.6 million dollars ARR right now. And yeah, that's about it. Aida: Also, a thing about XOR is we recently made a survey for randomly picked candidates asking them how did you like the experience with a chatbot, 93.3% of them said it was excellent experience, 6% said it was good, and less than 1% didn't like it. Aida: So the company is headquartered in Austin, Texas. We keep the development team in Moldova, it's in Eastern Europe. I'm originally Russian, as you said, so yeah. Main differentiators in the market of XOR from everybody else is first one is we support 103 languages while everybody else supports a couple of them for the most part. Second one is we have the richest feature set that lets us cover the most retained repeated tasks from the moment the candidate is curious up to the moment of the job offer. Third one is we are the most enterprise ready, that means GDPR compliance, technical compliance, and really domain expresses that lets us do the very smooth change management within the customers. Aida: So far very high customer satisfaction, we have zero turn rates for two years. Yeah, that's about it I think. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Your time is up. For those who want to find out more about XOR, where would they go? Aida: It's XOR.ai. X-O-R dot A-I. Chad: So right out of the gate, the name. Where did the name come from? Aida: The name stands for extraordinary optimized recruitment, and we do know that people call their chatbots with a female name. Joel: Whoa, whoa, whoa, time out. Say that again? Aida: It stands for extraordinary optimized recruitment. Chad: Extraordinary recruitment. Okay. So it has nothing ... you're a mathematician right? Aida: Absolutely. Chad: It has nothing to do with XOR gate at all? Aida: It does. It actually started as binary operator. Then we found a way to kind of decipher it for the recruitment purposes. Chad: So you started with the whole mathematician side of the house, the XOR gate piece and then you went mainstream and sold your people out, sold your mathematician people out. I have to give you big applause for that one, good one. Joel: Logistically though, isn't Xor a difficult time for your sales folks? Like I can't imagine calling up an HR professional and saying, "Hi, I'm Johnny with Xor." How do they get around that? How do you spell that? Is that an issue right now with the company? Aida: Not an issue at all. Absolutely not. Joel: Okay. Have you guys gotten funding at this point? Aida: The company ... we started from Eastern Europe. You know what situation this is right now is there, so the company has been profitable from day one. We've been bootstrapping for a while with my co-founder. Then we started to make money and then we started to hire people, but we got the angel investment from two Austin based angels of $350,000 in the beginning of this year. One of them actually joined us as a COO. It's a person who exited his previous company for $1.2 billion to Emerson. His name is Dave Perry. Joel: Okay. Aida: He's based in Austin. Yes, he's our COO right now. Joel: I just want to get this straight real quick, because your pitch was a little bit quick for me. You're $6 million a year in profitability or revenue? Aida: We are 1.6, 1.6 in ARR. Joel: One point six. Okay. Aida: Regarding revenue. Joel: So the only money you've taken is $350,000. Aida: That's right. Joel: And you have how many employees? Aida: Twenty five. Joel: Twenty five. You have 121 customers. Aida: Yes. Joel: And you've been around for two years. Aida: Yeah, we started the company a little bit more than two years ago, we've been in the market for 18 months, 18 to 19 months. Joel: I like everything you just said there, by the way. Okay. Chad, you're up. Chad: A little bit more background. You started in IT recruitment and you said there are three things that you wanted to be able to change that you had pain around. What were those three things again? Aida: Absolutely. As a recruiter, I'd been spending, as I said, 60% to 50% of my working hours doing three things, first one is prescreening the resumes, second one is scheduling and rescheduling interviews which killed me. Everybody hates to do this. Our third one is answering the same questions over and over again, like you know, will you provide me with Visa support? Can I bring my cat to office? And so on and so forth, so I had to find a way to automate that without losing the human kind of touch for the candidates. Chad: Can I bring my cat to work? I like it. Joel: I bring mine to work. Chad: We know. Aida: Even though people do know for sure that it's not a human at the other end of the thing, it's a chatbot, they're getting so engaged that they always ask all types of personal questions, like are you a robot? Do you have a girlfriend? What's the weather in London, and so on and so forth, so it's really, really hilarious. That's why we added the small talk functionality with the chatbot and now it can handle all of those questions. That's pretty cool. Chad: That's hilarious. Where did everything actually start? Where was your first customer? Where location wise and what was the customer's name? Talk to us about that story. Aida: Absolutely. Our first customer was the largest retailer in Eastern Europe, it's called X5 Retails ... X5 Retail. They have three retail grocery chain stores, chains back in Eastern Europe, so altogether they have 200,000 employees and they use XOR in order to stay in touch with their candidates after hours, during the weekends, during the holidays, and now they're hiring 160,000 people per year with a huge turnover and they're using XOR for this. They're still our customers, they're still very happy. Joel: Aida, you service 103 languages you said, I think that's amazing. How did you do that, and you said most of your competition just covers a couple languages. Get a little more specific about some of your competitors and how they fall short of servicing so many languages. Aida: Yes. Actually my technical co-founder is a pretty impressive guy. He's been in software development for 16 years, managing all types of teams, so he won the national wide competition in AI chatbots back in Russia two years ago. That's when I found him. So the way we did it is we don't use the Microsoft LUIS or IBM Watson, we built our own proprietary chatbot engine that actually works in two main languages, which is Russian and English, and then above that we use little twists and tricks and know-how with the use of Google translate. Chad: Gotcha. She just said Watson sucks. I love it. Joel: Competitively, who would be in second place with the second most languages? Aida: The two main languages that mostly used are English and Russian right now. Joel: Correct. Aida: And Spanish as well. Now we're getting actually traction in Brazil as well. So yeah, we're doing this very big partnership with Brazil. Joel: But you know your competition, you know Mia, Olivia, AllyO, etc. What kind of language penetration do they have outside of English? Aida: I believe all of them cover English for sure. I don't ... I'm not aware of any other languages. I do know some of the competitors also cover, for example, Dutch or German, but none of the rest. Chad: Okay. So what messaging platforms do you actually connect into? I mean, what if I'm on a mobile phone, I'm in an Uber, I'm actually going through the process of applying and I've arrived at my destination, I close the browser. What happens next? Have you lost me? Does it go to my ... Did I choose to use Facebook Messenger? Is it text? Tell me how you don't lose those types of individuals. Aida: Absolutely. So first of all, we do use our web app. Of course, that works with any browser on any device. This is the first one. We also connect all the data of all the candidates from the moment they apply in order to re-engage with them, to confirm the meeting, to give them the opportunity to reschedule, so we're using pretty much emailing, texting, Facebook Messenger, Telegram messenger, Viber, Skype. Now we're adding WhatsApp because they just released the chatbot API, finally. But new ones are web application and combined with the texting. Joel: You say that you, in your promo video, that you integrate with every ATS and every digital calendar system. Certainly not every one, right. Talk about that. Aida: Yeah, sure. So we're integrated with the most popular calendar systems, obviously, because scheduling is everybody's pain point right now, so this is Google calendar, Outlook Microsoft 365, and as for the ATS, we are currently integrated with 12 of them and we build integration as we go so that means as we acquire a new customer, if they need a special integration, we do that. There are like all the mainstream ones and also we are integrating with a whole bunch of congruent ATSs that our customers are using, obviously. As for the mainstream ones, it's Taleo, SmartRecruiters, iCIMS, Greenhouse, Lever, and a coupe of others, TempWorks, JazzHR, I need to kind of recall them, but 12 of them altogether. Chad: So as we take a look at, I mean really, the globe, there are plenty of places for you to attack and really gain amazing penetration, so like Russia, Europe, so on and so forth. Apparently you guys are really going to focus on the US market. Why move to the US market so quickly without just going ahead and owning Europe and Russia and Asia, etc? Joel: Middle East. Chad: Yeah. Aida: Let me tell you that US market for HR technology is 300 times as big as in Russia, for example. So it's the biggest market as well as the obvious step for us to go. Also, in the US in a couple of industries, five industries, they do experience a very high labor shortage right now, labor crisis they would say. Industries such as construction, which is booming and they cannot hire people fast enough, health care, retail, restaurants, and hotels. This is why we're focused on the US, because the unemployment rate is so low, they need to do something about it. Chad: Gotcha. So there's just the opportunity. I mean, obviously the dollar amount is ... that's a nice little draw, but also the opportunity because it is so hard, especially right now in the US to recruit. That being said, high volume recruiting is something where you guys have focused. How do you serve, because that's a big change going from high volume to a corporate more of like a white collar professional type of a platform, how do you serve both sides and do it well? Aida: Yeah, absolutely. We started with high volume recruitment, because there we saw the immediate results for the customers, obviously. But when we started to penetrate the American market, we actually even shifted a little bit more to being the industry agnostic system because we're currently working with a technology company, with staffing agencies that are hiring white collar types of jobs, types of people, so it doesn't really matter. We'll automate the same things for them, asking the filtering questions, we prescreen them, then we schedule them, answer their questions. Aida: The only difference is that maybe in FAQ part of the chatbots. For example, if we're talking ab the white collar types of jobs, we are mostly focused on what's my career development, the Visa support, internship programs, so on and so forth, whereas for the blue collar, it's a little bit more straightforward, because ... what my salary will be, will I have to wear a uniform, will I get a corporate car, so on and so forth. Joel: I want to ask you about onboarding. You mentioned in your promotional material that when someone becomes a customer, one of your "AI team onboarding members" will call them and go through questions, etc, which to me one of the big issues with chatbots is one of scale. They all have to have a human involved to build the Q&A and hand hold for a little bit. Do you ever see your company getting to a point where's not a human onboarding team involved? That it can be turn key or just some basic questions that a company needs to fill out or answer? Aida: Absolutely. We are actually working right now, so first of all, we do have a huge database of library templates that we use, and we also edit them and also launch them as fast as we can. Our custom success managers do that. But, right now we're serving enterprise customers and staffing agencies as well as high volumes of types of jobs, but we do think that our solution is something that every company with over 50 people could have benefit from. So for those types of people, we definitely will build the kind of ... we're actually right now working on a system that will turn the job description requirement parts into the chatbot right away for those smaller companies that will be able to do the onboarding themselves. Aida: But right now how it works is our technical team and our customer success team are working together, so custom success team is working closely with the talent acquisition team of the customer in order to build up the chatbots in order to set up the initial knowledge base of the chatbots in order to build out the filter questions for every type of position. The technical team is taking care of the integration with ATS and calendar system. Chad: How are you actually attacking the market, because attacking the high volume market is entirely different than attacking the blue collar kind of more corporate type of market. So how are you attacking the market from an education and a sales standpoint? Aida: As for the sales, it's pretty straightforward. It's B2B sales process. The prospecting emails, qualifications, demos, proposals, the usual thing. So as for the educational market [crosstalk 00:19:58] Chad: Fortune 500 companies right out of the gate or are you using partners to be able to facilitate that process? Aida: We do both, but we do see for sure that the most reliable way source of leads for us is prospecting and the cold emailing if you can say so. But the partners is another way of ... for example, the partnerships with a couple of ATSs that we're currently working with. Yeah, this is very interesting for us but you cannot really scale it up and it takes a little bit longer. Joel: AI has been under fire in recruitment lately. You've probably read the story about Amazon. Aida: Oh yeah. Joel: Building their own AI component and the bias was sort of starting to build in to the platform or the application. In your materials, you talk about your own AI and the more that it's being used, it learns and it starts recommending who might be good candidates for jobs. So talk about that solution that you guys have and how you keep bias out of your solution, whereas Amazon failed. Aida: Actually as for the Amazon, let me add the little comment you can ... I do not believe they actually launched it and somebody was discriminated, although ... and I also cannot believe that they couldn't exclude the feature of the gender out of the equation. That's very interesting for me. But at the same time, so the predictive analytics of the chatbots is another very big component where for usage of which you do have to have very big data set. So we're currently ... what we're doing right now is we build out the predicted analytic that will let you ... based on the number of metadata that you gather about the candidate from the moment they apply and based on historic data, what types of candidates were successful in the company in two ways, were they ever promoted, and how long did they stick with the company, will predict not only the level of engagement of the candidate and the score based on hard skills and how many years of experience and education and so on and so forth. Aida: But also, how likely will the candidate turn out within three months, or how likely will the candidate be recruited or stay with the company for longer than a year? That's one aspect of predictive analytics and the second one is how fast do you need to move with this candidate in order not to lose him to the competitor and that makes sense. That's also extremely important for us. Chad: It certainly does. So let me ask this just from a clarification standpoint. You are looking to do transactional type of business with employers who are like under 50 employees, and then you're also looking to try to go after top notch Fortune 500 companies at the same time. Is that what you're doing today or is that what really your long term focus is? Aida: It's our long term focus, because right now our main focus is enterprises and staffing agencies. Chad: Gotcha. So go back to the partner strategy kind of conversation. So we've seen Paradox and Olivia do some pretty smart partnerships, like one with SmashFly, where they have Emerson automatically embedded into a platform that is already serving hundreds, hell, who knows, even maybe thousands, of employers currently. So that was a just add water kind of scenario. What are you doing beyond the applicant tracking system side of the house to be able to create those types of partnerships to really drive adoption? Aida: Right. In order to drive the adoption, first of all we do the partnership with the ATS which is the most obvious way because the chatbot is the thing that stands between the job board, so whatever the job distribution channels are, and ATS, and automate this engagement with the candidates, right. Chad: Right. Aida: You also mentioned Olivia and Paradox, which I think is the same thing, right? Chad: Yeah, yeah, but they've partnered with SmashFly. That was my point. They partnered with SmashFly. Joel: Yep. Aida: That's a good one. We don't do any of those types of partnerships, if that makes sense, right now. Chad: Okay. Aida: That might be a good idea. Chad: And I mean, so right out of the gate, the applicant tracking systems really haven't given a shit about candidate experience at all. Aida: Absolutely. Chad: So having the opportunity to embed the chatbot into an ATS, that's all well and good, but why wouldn't you focus on trying to embed into an actual candidate experience platform? That's what they're there for. Aida: Yes. That's right, but ... that's a good point, actually, but we don't really believe in the partnership between the ... I don't know. When we're in the early stage startup, not early stage anymore, but at the same time, we do know that the main focus should be at the customer acquisition currently to do the partnership on the same terms, if that makes sense. Chad: Gotcha. Aida: There will be benefit for both, for the commercial standpoint and from the ... yeah. So that will not be sole dependent on the partner in that point. Joel: I want to ask about Ikea. It looks like you guys are doing some work with them and what I found interesting was you did some sort of a kiosk program with Ikea and we think so much as chatbots as either a desktop application or something on your mobile phone, but I think kiosks is pretty interesting. Tell us about what you did with Ikea. Aida: Absolutely. So with Ikea, we do the kiosks. It's in every Ikea, there are a couple of ... you could say it's an iPad, right? Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Aida: So any person could just go up there and just apply for a job. Pick a job that suits to this particular person the best, find a location that's closest to their home address, and then apply for a job, go through the prescreening and be scheduled for an interview right away. That's the idea for that. But what we also do in terms of the ... it's gonna all fly in chatbots, if you can say so, it's not an online source. You go by hands ... you go by feet and then you feel it out. Aida: We also do ... we have a couple customers in retail, we also need experience with scanning of QR codes, which are not that huge in the US anymore, but they are pretty still used in Europe, so you can just scan a QR code and get to talk to the chatbot right away from your mobile phone. For example, for students at job fair or something like that. Joel: Gotcha. So as we're sort of winding down here, tell me about pricing, and I want to know about your ultimate goal for the company. You've taken very little in money so you have some flexibility. Do you want to grow the company and have it for five, ten years? Do you want to flip it here in the next one or two? What's the ultimate goal and what's the pricing of the product? Aida: Absolutely. The pricing, it's SAAS, it's an annual subscription which depends on two factors, first one is how many applicants the company is processing per annum basis, and second one is what are the feature set, what are the business process they actually want to automate? For example, whether or not they want just basic scheduling for the first step of the interview process as opposed to the complex scheduling with all the hiring managers, panel interviews, sequence interviews, and so on and so forth. Also whether or not they will need the video interviewing functionality, the widget on the websites, and ... yeah. It can reach anywhere from $30,000 to $600,000 in the US alone, so that's the pricing. Joel: And ultimate goal? Aida: We are actually ... we're committed to the company for at least the next five to seven years, the team is and we will do what's best in the interest of the shareholders, if you can say so. It might be in a position, it might be an IPO in this timeframe. The ultimate goal for the people is to build out the ultimate tool to hire any person so that you can just tell to ZOR for example, "I'm opening up a new restaurant at this location in two months. Bring me all the staff I need on this particular day." They will be all assessed, they will be all ready to go. Joel: There's our first IPO drop on the firing squad, Chad. That was ballsy, I like that. You heard it here first. Chad: That's pretty awesome. So, my last question. Aida: Yes. Chad: Going back to partnerships and driving revenues and vision, so what agencies have you closely affiliated yourself with and give us some success stories on how you've been able to work through agencies, advertising agencies. Aida: Advertising agencies? Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Aida: What's ... I mean? Chad: The TMPs of the world, the NASs, the KRTs, the Shakers, those types of organizations. Aida: I'm not really sure I got the question. Chad: Okay, so in recruitment in the US, their, in many cases, adoption is incredibly slow for talent acquisition because there's so much being thrown at them so fast, they can't take it all in, so what they do is they have advertising agencies like TMP Worldwide, like KRT, like NAS, like Shaker. So in most cases, they're a conduit for adoption. What are you doing, what formal programs do you have going on with them right now, and give us a little explanation of one that's really working well for you. Aida: That's actually a great question. I am under Indeed, but we're very currently, very deeply involved with several of those types of companies right now. What we do with all of them, it's an Indeed kind of thing, but it's ... yeah ... I think I don't know about it. Joel: Maybe we should move on. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: All right, all right. We're at our threshold here. Aida, thanks for putting up with the firing squad. Chad and I are both gonna give you our rating and then you will hopefully still be friends at the end of it and you can say goodbye. Joel: So I will get into my rating at this point. I'll go first. I love a lot of what I heard. I loved 121 companies that are using it, I loved so little amount that you've taken in money, low amount of employees. You have 25 but I'm sure most of them are contract over in Europe, very low cost, low overhead folks you have cranking out code on a probably 24-hour basis. I love the 100+ languages. We don't have time to put that through the test, so I'll just have to assume that all those languages are very, very integrated. Somebody in China that's using it, it sounds really like you're talking to someone that's Chinese and not someone that just threw in a translator, because we know translation is a tough game and if you guys have figured it out, I think that's really, really solid. Joel: Satisfaction rating of chatbots doesn't surprise me. People hate the black hole. I think that from an engagement perspective, it's great, so to me, chatbots are gonna be this sort of must have application for every ATS, everyone that's in this business serving enterprise or clients in that area so for me, you guys are gonna be a major acquisition target and considering how little you've taken in money, someone to write you a check for a few million dollars, is not gonna be a big deal and it's something that you're gonna have to deal with, probably in the near future as all these chatbots get consolidated. Joel: For me, I think what you've done is fantastic. You've been around a little longer than maybe some of the others. The language thing is huge and I think you guys are gonna be prime for an acquisition. So for me in the firing squad, big applause. Congratulations. Chad: That's amazing. So my turn. Joel: Yep. Chad: Aida, I have to say right out of the gate, totally incredibly impressive. No question. Profitable on day one, 125 customers, I mean the ranging ability of the platform, not just in the US, only $350,000 taken at this point when what, the Mias of the world I think have taken like 38 million or something, I can't remember. Joel: Yeah. Mia's taken a little bit more than that. Chad: Yeah, yeah, a lot. Taking that 1.6 million ARR, 25 employees, 93%, I just think all of that is just amazing and it is an awesome story. Here's the thing. The competition for the US honeypot is much different than it is in anywhere else in the world, and really the word of the day is partnership. That's all there is to it. If you're out there on your own and you don't have tightly integrated partnerships and you don't understand the user experience platform ... I guess you could say landscape that's out there, like the SmashFlys of the world, the Phenoms of the world, that's going to be, I believe, one of your biggest vehicles. Yeah, the ATS is awesome and it's great to have those names, but at the end of the day, the ATS really doesn't care about a user experience, most of them, the big ones. They just don't. That's why these other platforms have come out of pretty much nowhere. Chad: So partnership is key. I think you guys are on an amazing trajectory, but that one piece, that one partnership piece could really kill adoption if you don't win there, because adoption is cash, and it's retention and it's sustainability, so for me, I think you guys are doing an amazing job, but because of that one piece, here in the US, it's gonna be a golf clap. Joel: By the way, she's gonna get a few phone calls from those folks after this show airs, by the way. Chad: Oh yeah she will, and you're welcome. Aida: Thank you guys. Joel: All right, Aida. Congratulations. How do you feel? Aida: I'm feeling good. Thank you so much. Joel: Good, good. Good. All right, again, where can our audience find out more about you? Any deals you can throw at them for the Chad Cheese show? Aida: Yeah sure. We can give them a little discount. Joel: Just mention Chad Cheese when you call. Chad: Exactly. Aida: Yep. Joel: And that website is? Aida: It's XOR.ai. Joel: Very good. Aida: Very good. Joel: Chad, we out. Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode, and if you're a startup who wants to face the Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's W-W-W dot C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E dot com. #XORai #Talroo #chatbots #AI #MachineLearning #FiringSquad

Straight off Halloween's sugar high, the boys are in rare form this week and talkin' about - What the hell is Handshake going to do with all their new ca$h? - Possible walkout protests at Google - eHarmony sells for mere pocket change - Facebook's rumored Workplace.com - Ladders deserves the spanking the receive ...and get your lazy asses out to VOTE! I'll say it again VOTE! Enjoy, and throw money at sponsors Sovren, Canvas and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listing to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: It's to come down from your Halloween sugar high, and tune into the Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous. I'm Joel Cheeseman. Chad: I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's episode, Facebook is launching, Google is protesting, and Handshake is raising. Gotta stay tuned to know what the hell we're talking about. Grab a Kit Kat, and relax to the sweet sounds of this Sovren ad. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate person products. Now, based on that technology, comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidate scored by fit to job, and just as importantly, the jobs fit to the candidate. Sovren: Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: I already do. Joel: Chad, I'm a little bit scared for the future. Last night, Halloween, as you know. I'm sure you had trick-or-treater's, you were doing the whole thing like I was. I've got to tell you, the costumes were pretty weak by the teen and preteens that came to the door. There was an entitlement like, just give me candy. I might throw on a baseball cap, or maybe I'll throw on some boots to look like a cowboy, but I was really unimpressed, and I feel like this is millennial 2.0 that we're getting ready to see, if Halloween is any indication from what I saw last night. Chad: Our kids went all out. I mean full body suits, I mean the blood in some cases. Yeah, I mean it was rainy down here, so yeah anybody who was coming out, I mean they also wanted to go the extra effort to be able to get candy, right? Joel: It's because you live in Mayberry, and Uncle Jed and Ed Clampett come over in their outfits. Yeah, you're small town America dude, I'm big city urban area up here, up in the big city, so yeah, maybe that's the problem. All right, let's get to shout outs. Chad: Lazy kids. Joel: We're moving beyond Halloween, we're going into November, and it feels like Christmas in my house dude. I've got major shout outs to LinkUp, particularly their CEO, Toby Sasquatch Dayton. We call him Sasquatch, because no one's ever sees him, and we finally saw him in New Orleans. A Sasquatch T-shirt was part of my goodie bag, as well as a little bit of refreshing beverages. Joel: Also Judge, The Shred sponsor. By the way, if you're not listening to The Shred, what the hell's wrong with you? These are great little appetizers of news done only how Chad and I do them. Shout out to Judge and LinkUp for some great goodie bags, making it feel like Christmas already. Chad: Yeah, you have to subscribe to wherever you get your podcasts, to be able to get The Shred. It's not just something that we're going to throw out there all the time, so if you're not getting The Shred, that's because you haven't subscribed to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. What the fuck is your problem? Joel: There's a velvet rope, because it's so valuable. Chad: Yeah, and it's free by the way. Ty Abernethy, CEO of Grayscale, and Gretchen Lindlau of Quad/Graphics, both fans of the show, big time shout out. Thanks for listening guys. Joel: Yeah, I think that's two weeks in a row for Ty Abernethy. He's doing all the right things for us. HIREconf. Chad: Yes. Joel: Hiring Solves annual conference is going on next week in New York. You and I will be doing something. As anyone who knows Jeremy Roberts, knows it feels like it's this the seat of your pants, but it all comes together at the end. Whatever we will be doing there will be awesome. November 7 and 8th in New York, come check it out. Chad: It's only $250 to get into this bad boy, if you go to chadcheese.com, you click on the banner, and it automatically has the discount code in it. If you do go to Eventbrite, just use ChadCheese, and that is the 50% off discount code. We'll be live on stage, and it should be a blast. Joel: I mean come on, $250 in New York? That's what you pay for lunch. Yeah, just get under the seat cushions there of your studio apartment, and get $250, and show up. Chad: Yeah, so Jared ... I think it's Glubin. Is it Globen, Glubin? Over at ZipRecruiter, yeah fan of the show. He nearly caught me on the wrong day though, sorry Jared, but it was Monday, so you should know better. You get snarky with me, the snark's going to come back, there's no question. Bill Boorman, dude thanks for sharing this fantastic T-shirt. Chad: Here's what it said, don't blame the foreigners, you were shit at your job. Joel: Bill is the quintessential English, snarky, self-deprecating person. It's been way too long since I've seen Bill, hopefully I'll run into him soon, but yeah he's well known for the snark. Chad: Very nice. Joel: He could be on the show at some point, we need to start upping our game on guests I think. Chad: We've got great guests. Joel: They're all ... Hung Lee should be on, there should be a whole British invasion of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Well, I mean Hung Lee, is ... He can't get off a God damn plane to do the podcast, that's the problem, the guy is everywhere. Big shout out to Max Armbruster, the CEO of Talkpush, for tweeting a response to last week's texting shower rant that Joel had. His response was, "While regulators may struggle to protect SMS as with email from spammers, Facebook is equipped to fight them efficiently on Messenger and WhatsApp." Chad: What he's saying, is his platform doesn't need that texting bullshit, they have messaging. Joel: Yeah, I'm going to back up on my rant, which I totally stand by. I got some pushback, and I just want to make sure it's clear what I was talking about. Chad: Oh, okay. Joel: Okay, I understand that politicians don't have the same laws that marketers have, and people have, which is bullshit, but that's its own little rant. What I'm talking about, is today, I could get a Twilio account, set up a phone number to text people, plug in 100,000 phone numbers, and text those numbers through that Twilio 10 digit phone number, and there's nothing currently that I'm aware of that can stop that from happening. Joel: If it can happen, it probably is happening, it will happen more. I'm just saying that needs to be addressed, or else people are going to start freaking out, because texts are going to be coming in at an escalated rate for sure once that starts happening in mass, that's all. Chad: That's all, that's all, yeah Max, says, "Don't worry about it if use Messenger." Joel: By the way, new legislation out of AT&T, that you can't use shared short codes. The companies that allow people to send one number, and have multiple clients sent through that same short code. AT&T apparently is starting to crack down on that. I'd say even the short code text messaging that we've seen is under fire. I'm just saying, this whole space could blow up really fast, if regulators, and phone companies, which phone companies like that you're texting, right? Joel: Phone companies don't want texting to become email. They're going to do everything they can to make sure it doesn't. Chad: Yeah, but unfortunately the regulators don't self regulate, and they just do whatever the fuck they want to do, which is another reason why ... Joel: Phone companies do, phone companies don't want spam texts. Chad: They're not the regulators overall, right? They're not, they can be regulated by government. That's what I'm saying, that's why the vote counts. Moving on, we'll get more into those rants. Big shout out to the U.S. Army for continuing to be the most bad ass recruiting machine ... If you're talent acquisition out there, or you're a vendor, and you're not reverse engineering the shit out of some of the major pipelining, or branding methods that the U.S. Army has come up with over the 100 plus years they've been around for God sakes, you're stupid, seriously. Chad: These guys are the best recruiting machine out there, and as we talk the clients, as I talk to companies daily, weekly, it's amazing how many deer in the headlight looks I get when I start to point toward, "Hey, are you trying these pipeline methods?" It's ridiculous, look at what's happening out there. Look at the companies who are kicking ass and taking names, and have for over 100 years, and try to mimic that shit, idiots. Joel: By the way, your recruiting better be good, if part of the value proposition, is you could die. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I'm going to give a shout out to our buddies at TAtech, who are launching TAprose. That's prose, as in the writing prose, not like pro football players. P-R-O-S-E. Apparently this is going to be a publishing arm of the organization. Yeah, so shout out to them, we'll wait to see exactly what it is, and what's gonna unveil from that. We always love what TAtech and the Weddle's are doing, so this is one more thing that they're diving into. Chad: Yeah, and that being said, if you haven't checked out Peter Weddle's new book, "Circa 2118," check it out. What humans will do when machines take over. We're going to have him on the pod here in about a month or so, but check out that book, it's pretty cool. My last shot out, is for beer. Joel: Yay. Chad: I told this person I would not say their name. Joel: You can't anonymize. Chad: I can anonymize whatever I want, it's my fucking beer. Thanks for the beer, always welcome guys. Audra, thanks also for being a smart ass on Facebook. James Ellis, dude you gotta learn how to podcast better. That's one of the reasons why you're not getting beer man. Joel: For the record, I disclose my alcoholic gifting, and people know that if I talk about the company or person that gives me alcohol, that, that's disclosed. Way to go Chad, way to hide and veil who's gifting you beer, that's great. Chad: This is a listener, not a company. Joel: I bet they work for a company. Chad: Not one that sponsors the show. Joel: One we might talk about. Chad: No, they don't. Joel: Bullshit. All right, I'll trust you man, because we have a show together. Chad: Yes. Joel: I'm done with shout outs, I'm ready to do the show. Chad: Let's do it. Joel: All right, you're big on the whole voting thing, man I'm going to let you just run with this. Chad: Okay, so how are we not all fucking big on this voting thing? I mean seriously, how can we not be? Joel: Is someone anti-vote? Chad: Voter participation has been at a low 36% in recent years, and that often has to do with work life obligations. I mean work is important, right? We need that paycheck, managing kids, and the normal routines before work and after work is important, and sometimes gets in the way. Especially in these midterm types of elections, they just don't seem to matter as much, right? They're not Presidential elections, but they do matter. Chad: Not to mention our right to vote is pretty God damn big, when you take a look at it from a global standpoint, but we don't do it. I definitely wanted to take the time to say, "Look, we have early voting, not every state, but most states have early voting." If you haven't voted yet, and you don't want to be in the long lines on voting day, do it now. Don't put down the podcast, just take the podcast with you, and go vote now. Joel: You and I are generally I think opposed to big government regulations, and bureaucracy. I think we're probably in agreement that election day should be a national holiday. Chad: Yeah. Joel: There should be something to help motivate, because yeah, the latest numbers I've seen, is 48% of people don't vote. That's insane. Chad: It is. Joel: A lot of really good people died for us to be able to have the government and the country and the world we live in. I know we're a US-based show, and people from everywhere listen, but they're in similar situations as well. Yeah man, make your voice heard. I mean Donald Trump in aggregate won by the skin of his teeth, and it made a huge difference. If you think that you don't matter, you probably do, and this election is going to be a big one, so get out there and vote. Joel: Companies, if you own a company, let your folks, especially the small businesses that listen, let your folks have some time to go vote. Don't pressure them, you can incentivize them or however, but voting is important. We wanted to get that word out, next Tuesday go to the polls, do it. Chad: People are happier when they know the culture supports this type of activity. That's all there is to it. It's pretty fucking simple, and this leads into ... Joel: Get woke. Get woke is officially nerdy now, because people like me know what it means. No one's going to be saying get woke anymore, but we're going to say it, because it seems to be a hot topic in employment, in retention. News story out last week? Yeah I believe, basically how you feel as a company about the likes of Colin Kaepernick, and other such socially responsible folks in companies, is a really important thing. Joel: Let me read you some of the survey results here for you. A whopping 62%, and the survey asked 500 business professionals what they thought. 62% said they would not work for an organization, if they disagreed with their stated beliefs. 65% said they wouldn't buy from a company, if they disagreed with their state of beliefs. A mere 5% stated that what an organization says about an issue, would not influence their interest in working for them, which means 95% are interested in what a company says. Joel: While most, 56% said their organization has not ever taken a public stance on a political or controversial social issue, 30% said that their organization has. Times, they are a changing. Chad: It's pretty amazing, I mean what you say matters as an organization, and when you say nothing, that matters as well. When we take a look at how you treat your employees, how you actually have a message from a culture standpoint. I know here in Mayberry, in Columbus, Indiana, where a Cummins engine company internationally is headquartered, they have a big stance with regard to diversity overall, and they make it clear. Chad: When the states started taking stances against the LGBTQ community, right? Cummins actually was a huge voice in saying, "No, we will not stand for this as an organization, as a Corporation of people. This is something we won't stand for." The entire community got behind them, as well as other companies like Salesforce, and that meant something. Chad: That makes you puck your chest out, and believe in not just the country, but also the organization that you were affiliated with. I don't work for Cummins, but it makes me feel good that they are truly a part of this community. Joel: Yeah, it reminds me of when we were younger, and a famous quote by Michael Jordan, who would not get political when he played, said, "Republicans buy shoes too." That sentiment seems to be changing. The likes of Lebron James, and other stars are much more vocal than generations past. I think it's time ... It's getting to a time where companies are needing to take stands on issues. Joel: The Levi's example of gun control, having statement about that. Chad: Right. Joel: We've seen Silicon Valley companies talk about the immigration policies of the current office. If you're not seeing it externally into government policies, you're seeing it internally. This week, more than 200 Google engineers are apparently planning a, "Women's walk," where they will walk out in protest of the company's alleged protection of executives accused of sexual misconduct. Joel: This is according to BuzzFeed sources. An internal message board indicates the group plans to walk out on Thursday, which is the day of this recording, so we'll see what happens, talk about it next week maybe. This was big in response to executive Andy Rubin, who was given apparently $90 million in an exit package after an investigation found allegations against him credible on the sexual-harassment front. Joel: If you're not handling stuff externally, it's going to handle itself internally, if you're not being more responsible, and less tone deaf with social issues. Chad: Yeah, no question, not to mention from the standpoint of trying to actually hire let's say more female engineers, how do you think this impacts that endeavor? I mean it's going to negatively impact it, no question. As Google is probably already having issues in that area trying to hire female engineers, or really any types of employees, it's going to become even harder as they have these things pop up. Chad: You have to change your culture, and giving somebody a $90 million parachute, I don't know if that's always the best of answers. Joel: By the way, I'll mention that social media gets a lot of slack, and deservedly so in many cases, but I think this individual empowerment, and group empowerment, is happening only because we have social media. I don't think that any of these things would have the prominence that they do, without people having a voice that they never had before with social media. Chad: Transparency, there's no question. There's a new form of transparency. They're the pros and cons of social media, right? Being able to, from the standpoint surface problems that have been happening for years, probably decades. Also, on the other hand, the ability to falsely influence somebody with a bunch of bullshit that never happened. Chad: I mean it's going to be our job, to be able to do better from a research standpoint. When you see a company is going through ... Let's say for instance you see a story or, "You think it's a story," do your research. I mean that's what it all comes down to, make sure that it's real first. Again, you're right, from a transparency standpoint, there's much more information coming out. Joel: You as a company get to deal with it, and it affects recruiting and retention, amen. Handshake this week, a lot of people don't know Handshake. I didn't know about them until probably eight months ago or so. Raised $40 million this week, they raised them from the likes of Zuckerberg's Fund. He and his wife I believe, Chan Zuckerberg have a fund. Joel: The guy that founded eBay has a venture fund, so they both donated money, or they invested money, sorry, not donated. The company now has about a $300 million valuation. For those who don't know, it's essentially a software that colleges use for their students to connect with employers. What I think is unique about it, is they have Glassdoor type reviews on these sites. Joel: They're behind a walled garden, so only interns, or college students can see these reviews. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Whereas, if you go to Glassdoor, or Indeed now, it's difficult to segment just interns, so this is a neat way to do that. They also have a system where you can give a review anonymously, or you can choose to sign your name to the review, which I think is good. I think you'd probably be surprised by how many ... They're all good obviously, but how many interns will put their name to a review, and don't have to be anonymous all the time. Chad: Yeah, remember the days of JobTrak? Do you remember that? Joel: I do remember JobTrak, but I can't say I was an expert on what they did. Chad: College recruiting, I mean that's what it was, and then Monster bought it, and they fucked it all up. They called it MonsterTrak. Yeah, it's interesting the Handshake's of the world, and the domain is joinhandshake.com. They've really gone through a metamorphosis per se of really just being a job board equipped with interview scheduling a platform. An employer would come in, post a job, and then they would go ... If they were coming on site, on campus to do any types of interviews, or what have you, they could use the interview scheduling system, to be able to do that. Chad: There were some other functionality that was available too. I think today, and you start to see with some of these newer platforms, it's much more robust from a feature standpoint. It's easier to do that, because again, you're building from the ground up now, versus something that is 10 to 20 years old, so it's interesting. What do you think they're going to do with this 40 million fricking dollars? Joel: Probably what it said, is they're going to try to get into more companies. I mean I think they've done a good job with getting into colleges, and obviously if the colleges are on board, then they've got the students, which is a nice byproduct of that. Now they have to get more companies using the service. I will say if we're going historically on things like this, I think that when the economy is great, these college recruiting sites do very well. Joel: Companies need these folks, need these students to come right out of college, and join the workforce. Chad: Right, right. Joel: When the economy is in the shitter, no one seems to care as much about college recruiting. Now there's always outliers, right? There's always MIT and things like that, but on a grand scale, college recruiting takes a little break when recessions hit, and economies get bad. I think Handshake is doing well right now, partly because of the economy, but when things go badly, we'll see if Handshake can weather the storm, and come out the other side. Chad: Yeah, I think they're going to spend some of this money ... You said they have the colleges, they really don't have the colleges, they have the college career centers. The college career centers don't represent, in many cases, the lion share of the individuals who are actually looking for jobs. Back in the day before the Internet, yeah, the college career center was the place to go, because where the hell else would you go to try to find internships? Chad: Now it's much easier, they can bypass the college career center. Yeah, having those relationships with the college career center is huge, there's no question there. You also have to spend money to try to hit that, in some cases, lion share of those college students who are not going to go through the college career center. That's through their different colleges, so I think they're going to have to invest in being able to sure up those types of relationships even more, to ensure that they're getting the talent in. Chad: I mean that's their product, right? Joel: Do you remember going to the library on Sunday, and looking at multiple cities newspapers, and looking at job postings, Five Line postings, and then applying to those jobs through the mail? Chad: Fax. Joel: How long ago does that sound? How antiquated does that sound? Holy shit. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Going to Kinko's and getting your resume printed on really nice paper, and actually typing out a cover letter. Chad: Using a typewriter, is that what you did? Joel: I had a word processor, but yeah. I mean you did that shit, like a custom typed envelope, where you actually signed your name, or letter, you signed your name. Anyway, thank God those days are gone man, because that sucked. Chad: Connectivity really sucked back then, not to mention I think from a recruiter standpoint, trying to go through all that shit would really suck, versus the technologies that are available today. Even the ones, the newer technologies, a lot of the startups that'll just automatically go through those hundreds of resumes, and just get it down to the qualified ones, and push those into your inbox. Chad: Yeah, I mean it's definitely an entirely different world, but the coolest thing, is we have been able to live through that, and through the whole Moore's law theory of watching things just progress so quickly. Our kids haven't had that opportunity, so it's really interesting, they don't understand how a lot of this actually came to fruition, but we watched the entire thing. Joel: Oh, we're going to be telling stories 30, 40 years from now about ... Anyway, in summary, we're old and getting older, but you know what isn't old? Is JobAdx's technology. Let's hear from them real quick, and we'll talk a little bit Facebook, and LinkedIn. JobAdX: As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX has been providing job work publishers, direct employers, agencies, RPO's, and staffing firms, dynamic job bidding, and real-time ad delivery through our programmatic job advertising exchange. When we started, we described JobAdX as AdSense for jobs. Now, we offer much more with Switchboard and Live Alert, completing our full suite of dynamic programmatic advertising tools with the best of consumer ad tech. JobAdX: Switchboard offers our dynamic technologies to all partner job board feed management. Live Alert eliminates latency and expired job ads via email. For more information about any of our ad solutions, please reach out to us joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@ J-O-B-A-D-X.com. JobAdX, the best ad tool, providing smarter programmatic for all your advertising needs. Chad: Ah, the best, ah. Ah. Chad: Facebook. Joel: Facebook continuing to be serious about employment. Chad: That's what they say. Joel: New evidence, new evidence leaked out this week that they announced to some of their bigger companies, customers, I think in this case it was Walmart who leaked it. Facebook is apparently launching a separate URL called workplace.com, where currently their messaging system, their slat competitor will be an offering on that. I just have to think, if they're serious enough to launch their own domain around this, that they're getting really serious about solutions for the enterprise. Chad: Yeah, I think they need to move away from the Facebook brand, which isn't the greatest brand at this point number one. To be able to make it seem at least like it's going to be viable, as opposed to just something that Facebook's thinking about. Yeah, I think changing the URL is big, but we're going to have to see how this really affects the product itself. Chad: Will it actually be more safe? Will it be something that companies engage with, and start to implement? Joel: By the way, wouldn't a separate domain work really nicely with an acquisition? ZipRecruiter. They could buy an existing service, move it over to workplace.com powered by Facebook, and really crush it I think. I'm speculating, but it would work really nicely if they did that. Chad: Backing up a little bit, I think ZipRecruiter is so ripe at this point for a big company, and I think Facebook is ripe at the same time to be able to put something like that together. There's no question where Zip's going, and where they're going quickly. They're doing it better than anybody else that we're seeing in the industry right now. They are not a job board, they are more of a programmatic outreach tool, and one click apply SMB. Chad: Where Facebook has been, and where they have been focusing on the SMB side of the house, this is a perfect start for them, and would provide them core technology and business, and pretty much a business model they could kick ass with. Joel: I think it's fair to say that ZipRecruiter has at least brought a pistol to the gunfight. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: Although someone with a howitzer is LinkedIn, and there was a post this week that caught your attention that I fully disagree with, so why don't you set the table for what you like about this opinion. Chad: Yeah, I just like it, because it was different than yours. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Holland McCue, she does some pretty good stuff. She put herself out there, she said, "Yes, I'm an optimist, and you might think I'm full of shit." I'm paraphrasing, but the top 1%, and this is through her blog, and through what she's seeing from the LinkedIn blog. The top 1% on LinkedIn, the Richard Branson's of the world, were getting all the algorithm love, right? Chad: LinkedIn finally understands the trickle-down effect for the 1% just doesn't work, right? LinkedIn understands that the regular users like schmucks like you and me, when we receive more likes, we engage more, and we actually push more content out there. Again, it releases those chemicals in the brain, oh, they like us. Yeah, this was Holland's take on it after reading some of the propaganda that LinkedIn was putting out. Chad: Why the hell not? It does make sense, why push all the one percenters shit out there, and make us all feel like we're looking up at the ivory tower, as opposed to feel like we're at the party in the ivory tower? Joel: Okay, so I feel like we're probably in more agreement than not. I feel that the algo's are not defaulting to giving your content a lot of exposure, just because you put it on LinkedIn. In other words, the video example that we talked about. You and I did a quick video at a party, and it got way more views than it deserved, and way more views than we thought it would. Joel: Part of that I think, is because LinkedIn wanted to push its video solution, it wanted to get people energized around doing it. Holy shit, I put a video up, and I got a bunch of views. Over time, that's going to wear on people, like this is just a dumb video, why am I seeing all these video? If it's good quality, if people do like it and share it, then yes, you're going to get some really nice exposure, and engagement on LinkedIn, especially for people like us, who want to be in front of recruiters and employers who, let's admit it, are on LinkedIn. Joel: If we were nurses, we would not be saying LinkedIn was the place to be, but we are in the recruiting business, so it's obviously going to get responses when we talk about Monster revenues decreasing, or so-and-so acquired so-and-so. That's gonna get a lot of attention and engagement, partly because of the audience that we're in. If we're still posting crappy stuff, I believe the algorithm is going to ... Just like it did on Facebook and anywhere else, just start pushing that out of view, because no one cares. Joel: When people care about what you post about, you're going to get engagement, I do agree with that. We're in more agreement than not. I think what Holl is talking about, is content that does engage, and it's good, solid content, not just we're throwing stuff up there, just throwing up a blog post on LinkedIn, because it's getting viewed. Joel: We're just throwing up a video, because it's getting viewed, it actually has to be good. Chad: With these new algorithms though, and if they do flip it for the 99% getting more perspective views and whatnot, or more engagement, then they're going to have to, LinkedIn is going to have to worry about the same shit that Facebook's going through with this fake news, make your own shit up meme situation that they're in right now. People loved the hell out of that, but it's still bullshit, it's still lies, right? Chad: They still love it, so yeah LinkedIn, I mean if you do flip it, there could be some unintended consequences around that, where people are liking a bunch of shit that is just totally false. Joel: LinkedIn benefits from the fact that most of its users, particularly the ones that are engaged, are, let's be honest, smarter than the average user that's on Facebook. Fake news has less of a chance to get through on LinkedIn than it does on Facebook. Chad: You're giving way too much credit to the human race, I think that's bullshit. I think at the end of the day, at the end of the day, the reason why we have a President, he was a TV show President, is because people who are working every day, don't get enough time with their Maury Povich, and their Jerry Springer, or what have you, right? They don't get that, so now they get it during the news times. Chad: I think we're giving way too much credit to the human race. Are there smart people out there that can do research and get through that? Yes, but it hasn't been proven yet. Joel: You don't think on average that the LinkedIn user is more educated than the average Facebook, or Twitter user? Chad: Education has nothing to do with it, people are engaging with these things, because it's hitting something inside of them, right? It's triggering something inside of them, it has nothing to do with their fucking education. Now, if they take the time, and they want to go the next step to actually see if this is true or not, that's entirely different. Being educated and having triggers, has nothing to do with being uneducated and having triggers. Joel: I think you've been reading Circa 2118 too much, and have way too little confidence in the human race. If you want to join Chad, and enjoy the doom and gloom of robotics and automation taking everything over, read Circa 2118. Chad: I'm saying be careful people, do your research, and don't post stupid shit, that's what I'm saying. Joel: I mean PT Barnum famously said, "There's a sucker born every minute," and that was in the 1800s. We've been dumb forever, we will continue to be dumb. Anyway. Chad: It's amazing. Joel: Who's not dumb is our sponsor Canvas, and their supersmart technology. Let's hear from them, and put the show out of its misery, and talk about eHarmony, and the Ladder's. Canvas: Canvas, is the world's first intelligent, text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you at the center, while CanvasBot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology, and has powerful integrations, that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Canvas: Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix, by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy, and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: Speaking of dumb, I feel like the last sponsor ad is the best one, because we saved the dumbest stories for last. Sometimes I think people just fast-forward to the end, and listen to that final ad, and then the stupid stuff we talk about at the end. Chad: I think with Canvas, the humans will be able to save so much more time, they can take that time to watch Maury Povich and Jerry Springer, and get their fill. Then we don't have to worry about all this shit on social media. Joel: Your ability to text fake news to mass quantities of people, is that much easier with Canvas. Chad: That's not how it works. Joel: Make sure you throw in a Bitmoji when you do it. Chad: Okay, so what are we talking about first here? Joel: EHarmony sells for $85 million to a German company, and we thought, not only that news, but it was a good time to revisit Elevated Careers, which was eHarmony for jobs. Chad: Yeah, good stuff. Joel: Candidate.guru, who acquired them when they did, which I don't know, over a year ago, right? Easily over a year ago, so eHarmony selling for $85 million, any comments on that? Chad: It seems like a low price tag. I mean I thought dating was the shit, and there were so much engagement, and there was so much revenue. I mean just $85 million? They sold to a German broadcasting company I believe called ProSieben, and they're just going to emerge eHarmony with their current dating app called Parship Elite. I mean it's like eHarmony really is dying. Joel: 85 is ridiculously low. I bet from 2000 when they launched to a year ago, the amount of advertising that they've done with that goofy founder on the ads, which was not inspiring anyone to date. Anyway, he's on these ads, I bet they spent $85 million a year on ads over that time, and now to sell for $85 million. This just shows again, people just want to swipe left and right dude. Joel: They don't want to fill out a form and a profile, and maybe that speaks to employment as well. People don't want to work for this stuff, and in eHarmony's case, you might actually have sex. We're not even talking about filling out a resume, or some lengthy assessment test. Chad: What's at the end of that swipe? That's what people are really caring about, but yeah, eHarmony, $85 million, ridiculously low. I mean just crazy, ridiculously low. Joel: Crazy, ridiculously low, and by the way, remember Facebook is getting into this dating game too. EHarmony may have thought well, Tinder took away how much value from our company? How much is Facebook going to take away from our company? We better sell as soon as possible to get as much as we can. Elevated Careers, let's revisit them real quickly. Candidate.guru was really big on the acquisition. Joel: There's an interview somewhere in our archives with their CEO, or founder. Chad: Steve, yeah. Joel: Yeah, Steve, and they've been pretty silent since the initial acquisition. We visited their website today, they've had no press releases anytime in the past year that I've seen. There's been no new features or technology. We visited the site, the most recent blog post is from May. I don't know, it's not a good sign from where I sit that the acquisition took place, or that they're doing anything with it. Chad: Yeah, they pivoted into something entirely different. I mean the site looks goods, it's nice, it's polished, but still, is that just new lipstick on the pig? Joel: It might be, we'll keep our eye on that. Speaking of press releases that come across my desk, this one caught my attention. Chad: Oh God. Joel: I'll read you the headline and the subhead to get you titillated and excited. Ladders, who we know, Ladders announces new, "Tap2Call, spelled T-A-P, the number 2, so you know it's good, C-A-L-L," feature, that allows recruiters to instantly connect with job candidates from their profiles. Holy crap, talk about innovation. Subhead reads, this one-of-a-kind mobile feature gives recruiters the option to call candidates immediately from Ladders mobile site with, get this, a single tap. Joel: Holy cow, talk about progressive. Chad: Okay stop, okay stop, so let me make this point again about Ladders. I've made it before on other podcasts, mainly about how bad their branding is. I mean remember Ladders used to be known as what? Joel: TheLadders. Chad: TheLadders, right, right, and why was that? Because they bought the URL, theladders.com, right? Then they backed off to just Ladders, so guess what's on ladders.com? Joel: Not ladders. Chad: A ladder company, no shit, right? It's the stupidest thing you could ever do in the world. You spend all this money for TheLadders to be able to brand it, and then you back it off, and you don't even have the domain to be able to do what you need ... Okay, that just is a framing of how stupid this fucking company is. Joel: Frame it brother. Chad: Tap2Call, didn't every mobile phone enable this specific technology and connectivity about five years ago? I mean I don't need Tap2Call to be able to do that already, and I haven't had to for years on my android. I'm sure on the iPhone as well, so how much money did their developers actually spend in putting something like this together? Joel: This is innovation man, I don't know what you're talking about. What I think is funny, is I think it was last week, or recently, we poked fun at CareerBuilder and Monster, because the stuff LinkedIn and Google are launching, is crazy cool, and intelligent. CareerBuilder and Monster's answer to that, is resume jobs, Instagram for jobs, or augmented reality to point my phone down a main Street, and see, ooh, wow, Starbucks is hiring, who knew? Joel: If we're making fun of CareerBuilder and Monster, what the hell is Tap2Call? That's so bad, and the fact that you're putting out a press release saying that this is once in a generation technology, just shows you how bad things must be at TheLadders, or excuse me, at Ladders. Chad: Yeah, at Ladders, so all of our listeners out there, when Joel and I were setting up the show, we had to talk about this, because it was so fucking stupid. For everybody that's out there from a vendor standpoint, this is your key. If you are not truly going to impact something in the recruiting industry, do not put a press release out, and don't make it look like it's a feature that is the first ever, because guess what? This is the stupidest shit that we've seen in a while. Joel: By the way dude, we have some live footage from Ladders IT department. Oh God, we out we? Chad: We out. Joel: Thank God. Chad: No shit. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen, thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad, and his goofy friend, Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors, because I need new Track Spikes. The expensive gold shiny pair that are extra, because well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Vote #Google #Levis #Branding #EmployerBrand #EmploymentBrand #Handshake #TheLadders #Facebook #LinkedIn #eHarmony #Workplacecom

When you want to talk recruitment tech you need to call upon one of the very few BAD ASS RPO tech overloads around the globe. So that's exactly what Chad & Cheese did... Adam Godson is High Commander of Tech Solutions at Cielo - that's what I call him - where they have 150,000 hires per year in 27 applicant tracking systems and that doesn't even touch the cool ass tech outside of the ATS. Don't miss the insights and tomfoolery... Sponsored by Uncommon.co - when you or your clients need ONLY QUALIFIED CANDIDATES call the crew at Uncommon. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides comprehensive website accessibility testing with personalized recommendations to enhance usability for people with a variety of disabilities or situational limitations. Chad: Dude, I just got off the phone with Teg. Joel: Teg, Teg ... Oh, yeah, over at Uncommon. Chad: Dude, do you know another Teg? Anyway, Uncommon just opened up their resume database of 100 million candidates to recruiters for free. Joel: Whoa. Wait, what? Chad: Yeah, Uncommon's releasing their new database-matching tech in beta before the end of the year, and they want to show it off to recruiters for free. Joel: All right, let me get this straight. Recruiters can sign up for Uncommon's beta, post their jobs into the system, the system then matches only qualified candidates from Uncommon's database of 100 million candidates, and this is all for free? Chad: I know, dude! Joel: Dude, Uncommon has some of the best matching tech in the industry. That'll be like cheating for recruiters. Chad: I know. Uncommon uses the qualifications in the job description to automatically source, screen, and deliver candidates that meet all requirements. It's pretty freaking dope. Joel: Did you just say "dope"? Chad: Here's how you register: go to uncommon.co, click on the "Join Beta" button, and for all you Chad & Cheese listeners, if you use the promo code ChadCheese, you will get extended by a full week. Joel: I'm sorry, did you really say "dope"? Chad: Dude, shut up. Tell your recruiter buddies uncommon.co, join beta, ChadCheese. It's dope. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Boom. Chad: Welcome to the Chad & Cheese Podcast. This is Chad Sowash. Joel: The way-too-early edition. Chad: Yeah. And that's Joel Cheesman, by the way. Just so that you know, today, once again, Chad & Cheese are committed to bringing you the most high-quality guests on our show. Well, maybe not today. Joel: Ouch. Chad: So today we have Adam Godson, who is the high commander of recruitment technology at Cielo. Did I get that title right, Adam? High commander? Adam: High commander, I'll take it. I'll take it. Why not? Joel: The most biblical name on the show, to date. Chad: Adam Godson, yeah. Adam: Very much so. Joel: Eve Godson is on next week. Adam: Yeah, she was unavailable today. Joel: That's right. Chad: It's kind of like Odinson. Is that what you're thinking? A little Marvel action? Everybody out there, and just for Joel as well, Adam already speaks fast as it is, okay? He's a quick talker. And then he speaks faster when he gets excited. So when he talks about recruitment technology, he speaks very fast, so I suggest that everybody listening to this podcast listen at half speed so that you can understand. Adam: That's right, back it off. Back it off just a little bit. Joel: And if you're in a pot-legal state, go ahead and smoke up while you do that. Chad: Which Wisconsin is not, and that's where Adam's at. Adam: That's true. Chad: So Adam, give us a little bit of background about you, Cielo, what the hell is a Cielo. Give us a little bit. Adam: Yeah, so I lead technology globally at Cielo. Cielo does recruitment process outsourcing, so we hire some or all of a company's hires, always under their brand. We have a "we become you" promise, so people apply to one of our partner companies, they think they're talking to a recruiter that works for them, they're actually talking to a recruiter that works for us. So we drive process and outcomes through outsourced hiring. Adam: My role is the best role in the company, and I work on technology systems. We've got a few technology systems that we bring to help recruitment. We typically work with our clients' ATS systems, so think of that what you will, but we oftentimes inherit those. We use 27 different applicant tracking systems in our client ecosystem, some of them better than others. Joel: So like 1% of them. Adam: Right, exactly. That actually is fairly close. And then we try to wrap the data all together in analytics platforms to make good stories of what's actually happening for talent acquisition and what those outcomes are. But the cool part is we get to try lots of stuff. We know a lot of the recruiting technology in the market, and we're always experiencing, trying, seeing what works, seeing what doesn't work in being able to stay ahead of the game. So that's, I think, where we add some value. Chad: So TA ... oh, talent acquisition always likes to bitch about their applicant tracking system. So at this point, what I'm hearing is, "Shut the fuck up. We have too many." Joel: Yeah. Chad: All these applicant tracking systems. But seriously, how many clients does Cielo have? You guys are global, so how many clients do you deal with? And I mean, these are applicant tracking systems that are not just US-based, right? Adam: Yeah, of course. We've got over 160 clients around the world. We make over 150,000 hires a year. We've got 10 offices around the world in every region of the world. Yeah, over the years, it's gotten much more complex. I've been here for seven years. We were a 200-person, little RPO when I started, focused only in North America. We've been able to grow to over 200,000 employees around the globe and take on really one of the only handful of players in the RPO space that could really handle global complex deals. And that's what makes it a ton of fun, man. It really is, just being able to solve really meaty complex problems you've really got to wrap your head around and think about and do it with tech. Joel: So talk about the global, I guess, variety that you see, what trends are you seeing, globally, for those of us in America that don't necessarily see the world on a regular basis? Adam: I was in Argentina a couple of weeks ago, for example. The economy's really rough in Argentina right now, so I think it's, you know, good times and big parties in North America and in a lot of Europe, but there are certain parts of the world that it's not right now. So I think understanding not only the economic situation of those countries but also their maturity when it comes to talent acquisition. The story we hear over and over and over again in Latin America and Asia Pacific is, "There's a global ATS implemented for our company, but nobody really uses it. And there are processes that corporate follows, but here it's different in our region. Nobody uses those systems." And some of that is the systems' fault where they're not really set up to handle those environments well. Adam: But a lot of it also is just business process maturity. In many ways, those regions are the Wild West, and it's the global companies that are coming first to introduce more process and introduce more systems to do that. So that's much of what we do in our programs, is get more global consistency. Because companies want to globalize, they want to be able to see where their talent is around the world. I mean, mobility of talent is incredible today, but it doesn't work if we're not all working in some of the same systems and have the right business process. Chad: And you can't find them here, right? So if you can't find them here in the US, and there are individuals that are obviously abroad, and you can work virtually, then yeah, there's an opportunity to do something like that. Now, you talk about process, and when we talk about technology, I don't believe that we talk about process enough, but I would believe ... and tell me if I'm wrong ... that process has a lot to do with the technologies that you and Cielo actually pick to integrate into your clients' systems or their "stack." Adam: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's a ton about process. I actually think that process is where ... I mean, the process is the name of RPO, right? Process outsourcing ... is a big reason why we're able to be somewhat successful in making technology work for clients, because we always have ... our vantage point is always the end outcome in mind. Like, we don't get paid for making people feel good, we don't get paid for getting 30% more clicks. We get paid for hires and outcomes, right? And that always has to be our focus, so we can't use technology that is super cool and we like the salesperson, but does it work? That's not our game. Everything has to work, and we have to be able to get outcomes from it. Adam: I think I was talking the other day about what I see with vendors starting to have some challenges because they only see part of the outcome in what they're putting in, and the incentives aren't always aligned. I was working with a client last week, and they had two vendors kind of working together, and I could tell that both vendors had their goal, neither of which was the client's goal. The vendor at the front end, their goal was to get more people through the very front end of the process, through the website. And they did it. They got 30% more people through the front-end application. They felt great, and they thought they were serving the client really well. Adam: The second vendor was working on screening, and their goal was to get as much of the process in their tool as possible. So they wanted to be sticky, they wanted to be that vendor that could be really well embedded, and so they created this long process where they were using a ton of that solution. And at the end of the day, they had half the output that they did before those two vendors tried to optimize this process. And that happens because those vendors achieved their individual goals, but neither of them looked at the process and the actual goal of the client. Chad: So you, in effect, are really referee and diplomat all the way through this. I mean, you have to focus on the client's goals because, at the end of the day, if they're not getting outcomes, it doesn't matter if these other two platforms feel good about themselves. If they're not getting outcomes, none of this matters. Adam: Yeah, I mean, "diplomat" is probably a strong word. I'm probably not a very diplomatic diplomat, but yeah, I mean- Joel: Neither is Chad. Adam: Chad's definitely not. But yeah, that's exactly it, right? Like, trying to get everybody to play, because this is getting more complex in getting vendors to work together, kind of creating these stacks of technology in an ecosystem. It just requires someone with that process focus, the outcome focus, and the data focus to make it all work together, to orchestrate the parties. Because everyone's got their lens, everyone's got their incentives, and making sure that the incentive is always outputs. Joel: Adam, there are about three or so recent events in recruiting, and I just want to get your thoughts on each one of them. Is that cool? Adam: Yeah, let's do it. Joel: All right. Number One: Amazon recently canceled an AI recruiting program because it was biased towards men. Upwork recently went public. Interested in your opinion of the gig economy and where that's going and how that impacts your business. And yesterday, LinkedIn launched an ATS. Those three things, I'd like your take on those. Adam: Awesome, quick hit, here we go. I mean, Amazon should cancel AI if it's biased against women. I mean, absolutely. That's just a good object lesson to say there's lots of fancy things out there, and I know lots of startups that are working on those problems that are all excited to use machine learning technology to do these certain things, but I think we've just got to be sure that it works. One of the things that we have at Cielo, we have something we call SkyLabs, and that's where we test things. Adam: So we've got lots of things in testing all the time, doing exactly what Amazon did, which is to ... let's put something into practice, let's learn from it, and let's figure out if this is going to be scalable or not. One of them we use is a voice analysis tool so we don't have to listen to recorded interviews, those types of things to do that. And we just spent the last six months gathering data on it but not actually using it. So we'll go back and we'll just ex-post analysis on whether that has bias in it, whether it's effective, those types of things. It was just a good object lesson in we've got to test. We've got to be sure that all stuff works in the real world. Joel: But you're still bullish on AI, I'm hearing? Adam: Yeah. Oh, for sure. For sure. Joel: All right. Adam: I mean, applied broadly to lots of different ways. You can use that word to mean just about anything these days. But yeah, I think there are lots of AI that drives automation in the process, for sure. Chad: Before we hit Upwork, the definition of "what works" is pretty important. The prospective impact on your talent pool, and ... you know, obviously a talent pool that you have in your applicant tracking system, and also the talent pool that's out there you're going to try to attract ... but to me, it seems like we just overthink shit too much. This AI ... is it just me? I mean, the simplicity of if you're qualified or not qualified, to me, is ... you know, that does kind of make sense. But don't you think a lot of these algorithms are just getting way too complex and they're not focusing on what really matters? Adam: I would say there's a pretty good bucket of stuff that we're overthinking, and there's probably a decent bucket of things that we're way underthinking, and we've just got to get right in the middle of that. We've got to get to our sweet spot. Chad: Okay, so Upwork. What do you think about the gig economy? Adam: Yeah, I mean, gig economy is real. Certainly, lots of people want to work in more flexible ways. I think Upwork is one of a few companies that have a good chance to change how people in the corporate world access this talent. So I think we've got to find a way to have people access that talent that is secure, that helps get them paid well, and helps get this done. But I think what we see is one of a couple things: we see people doing it in the dark, where they're running gigs on Upwork or Fiverr and then expensing it because they ... doing that, or some of it's run of it by procurement, and HR has no sense of any of this going on. And as you think of HR's responsibility to manage talent and organization, that has to be included in that total talent package. Adam: And that's the first step, and that's actually moving contingent labor and permanent labor together, so contingents often run out of procurement today. But then how do we work with interns? How do we work with contractors, volunteers, people in our expert network, gig workers, even robots, robotic process automation? How do we keep that in our total talent pool to make HR responsible for getting work done? And the total workforce, not just permanent hires, it just doesn't make sense to have those all over the place in the organization. So in Upwork, they've got a good chance to help take a good step to bring that together. Chad: So do you see Cielo actually prospectively creating a model to help some of your clients start to use and start to change the way that they think about work? Instead of it being a 9:00 to 5:00 kind of a job anymore, it's broken up into projects that, instead of them trying to manage ... because that would be a total bitch for them to try to manage ... Cielo could have a model to be able to manage those types of things. Is that something that we could prospectively be seeing? Adam: Yeah. We have programs at early stages of that today. The hotter market for that right now is actually Europe and specifically the UK, where much of the total talent market has started to mature a little bit more quickly, I think, than the US. We've also got a couple of pilot programs in the US that are happening with total talent, as well. So I think it's a vision that we've got. There's a lot of org change that has to happen, right? So we've got to work with procurement, we've got to work with parts of the business to help them realize that vision. But many of our more forward-thinking clients are all on board with that. We're working through that with them right now. Chad: Cool. Joel: So in pure cockblock fashion, Chad sort of just totally destroyed my series of questions by interrupting all of them. So we failed to get to LinkedIn and some of the announcements out of them this week, particularly the ATS. Wondering what your take is on what LinkedIn's up to. Adam: Yeah, I think Microsoft has been a huge help for LinkedIn to be able to help clarify their vision and get more integrated with the enterprise. It's going to be really interesting to see what they have. They're going to start with sort of the SMB market, as seemingly everyone does when they enter this space. And much like Google Hire, I think they create a ripple effect by doing that. Adam: So you see all the startups that were playing in the SMB space and trying to be in that running away from them as fast as they can, trying to get into midmarket. You see midmarket trying to get into enterprise, and you've just go this massive log jam of companies in the middle that many of them won't survive, right? But I think LinkedIn has a real shot to take the data ... it's the largest data people in the world, right? ... take that data and make it work as an ATS. I think there's no reason why they can't succeed in doing that. Chad: Don't you see a Trojan horse happening here, though? I'm going to ask it before Joel does because I know he's going to ask you this one. Trojan horse? No? Yes? Adam: There's no secret that they want to be more involved in the enterprise, both LinkedIn and Microsoft. So I think a company like Microsoft buys an asset, like LinkedIn, sort of to be a Trojan horse in some ways, right? So absolutely. Joel: So we talked about three companies that are pretty well known. And you listen to the show fairly regularly, I believe, Adam, as you should? Adam: I do. Joel: You see a lot of technologies and solutions out there. What are ones that we're not talking about that we should? Sort of the hidden gems out there. Adam: Yeah, for sure. Chad has talked about a couple of those over the course of the show. Uncommon is certainly one that I think is uncommon, perhaps. But a super-interesting company ... Oh, I know, right? No more puns. None of that. But one that I think has an interesting background and has some good technology behind it and an interesting team behind them. Another company that most people won't know is Talentify, Orlando, Florida-based company, one that Cielo is heavily involved in, but helping to use its really interesting technology in a platform to get companies on hourly hiring. Another company that I like is actually Brazilian-based, called RocketMat, using some machine learning to test outcomes from- Joel: I'm sorry, RocketMat? Adam: "Mat" with a "T," yeah. RocketMat. Joel: Just one "T," so it's not like a dude named Matt who has a rocket that is on the logo or anything. RocketMat. Okay. Adam: RocketMat, yeah. In Sao Paulo, Brazil. Some interesting guys that have some technology that does some machine learning to help with matching and outcomes-based pieces. You can tell I like outcomes-based things. So been working with them some to do some interesting work. Chad: Well, let's talk a little bit about Talentify, because you're talking about the high-volume side of the house, and you guys came out with ... months ago, probably six months, maybe even more ... I don't know if it was a case study or just a press release, but you had some pretty damn awesome numbers to share, and I'm sure at this point you have even better ones. So on the high-volume side, and even if it goes beyond that, what have you been able to do to be able to really focus on process and effectiveness of driving those types of outcomes, those hiring outcomes? Adam: We came out with a new product last year we called "High Volume RPO." I know, super creative naming on our part, right? But our use case in that was to be able to serve companies that we hadn't been able to serve before, people that hire a lot of the same position that are oftentimes highly distributed, geographically. They don't have like 1,000 openings in one place. They've got one opening in 1,000 places. So technology is really best to serve that, and it's typically not to replace HR. It's to replace the hiring manager having to do it as part of their job and probably sucking at it. So to help those people make better decisions and to help them hire well. Adam: So we've been working in this space for some time, and I've always tried to piece together certain parts of it. It was always quite difficult, so about a year and a half ago, we said, "You know what? We know how this should work. Let's build a platform that will actually do this right." So we did. There's probably three things that it does well. One of those is after Joel's heart, maybe, which is programmatic advertising and using media spend really well. Yeah, right? And being able to do that. Adam: And the second one is having, of course, a mobile first platform, but one that's driven on mobile and text. If you think about people that hire for hourly jobs typically as our target market, they spend their time on their phone. Often, they don't even own computers. So it has to be on the phone, it has to have a high level of automation. And the third piece was being able to have some selection, thinking differently about selection. So as we looked at the idea of a phone interview, for many of the hourly roles that we have, it's kind of a waste of time. We found that it didn't add a lot of value in terms of the selection validity. Chad: Wait, wait. Say that again. Say that again, because there are companies that are out there that just don't get this idea yet, from an effectiveness standpoint. So say that again, if you would. Adam: I mean, Chad, from an IO standpoint, we've known for 40 years that an unstructured interview is not a particularly valid method of selection. And yet we just haven't, as an industry, thought of something better. Chad: We keep fucking doing it, though. Adam: Well, we absolutely do. Absolutely do. But when we broke that down, we looked at ... we didn't find selection validity, but we did find engagement validity to that phone screen. In a phone screen for an hourly worker, we thought this was valuable because we were screening them out or ... but where we were actually adding value was we were engaging that person, so they were more likely to give us good customer experience ratings or candidate experience ratings, they were more likely to show up to their interview if they were engaged by a person. Got to create that social contract like, "I don't want to disappoint Joel because I talked to him in this interview, so yeah, I'm going to this interview." Adam: So we just kind of backed it out a little bit, and we replaced the actual phone interview with some quick assessments, so like a two-minute DISC assessment for frontline roles, like an EQ assessment for emotional intelligence, like a recorded phone call that's measured with the voice analysis. And then we put in some intentional human engagement, right? So we had people call and just check in on people to say, "Hey, I see you have an interview scheduled for tomorrow. We're really excited to see you. Let me tell you about why I love working here. Do you have any questions?" And right back up went those rates for engagement, right? Adam: So just thinking differently about how we engage people instead of having this formal phone screen thing that we've done for ages, it was about a couple quick assessments and then some good engagement calls. Chad: What about those engagement calls, though, real quick? Do you really need, and are you seeing with all your data, that you really need that engagement call from a human being? Or do you think that just a quick text that could be automated really just does the job anyway, and from an overhead standpoint, you don't have to pay somebody to be making calls? Adam: Yeah. You know me, Chad. We did all the math on that, and we spent some time doing A/B testing where we sent texts. We sent texts to confirm, we sent texts to engage. At any point in the process, we sent tens of thousands of texts a month, mostly automated, some of them manual. But what we saw was when a person calls and engages, we saw a high enough decrease in the no-show rate for interviews that it was worth about 2.5x what we actually paid people to do it. So we took it out for some, and then we put it back in because it had positive ROI. Chad: Nice. Joel: Adam, you guys cover pretty much the globe, but you guys cover just about every industry, from healthcare tech, technology, consumer stuff, manufacturing. Talk about the trends in each of those and how some of those are different. Adam: Certainly, healthcare is one of our key industries, so from an RPO standpoint, we've got a significant part of our business in healthcare, number one in healthcare measured. From an RPO standpoint, that's an industry that is really interesting in that there is a structural labor shortage. Structural. There just aren't enough skilled nurses to work. So what I think we've seen there is companies having to get more creative about how we're going to do this. Adam: We can't just fight in this bloody red battle for nurses with 10 years' experience forever, right? So we've got to just figure out how we can do some things differently, whether it's new graduate nurse programs to train them, whether it's bringing people in from sort of mature nursing markets, like the Philippines or Puerto Rico, whether it is labor pools where we can exchange and have nurse pools that share with some of our competitors, all those things that can get better solutions in that. Chad: We keep hearing about all of the nice bright-and-shinies. We already talked about LinkedIn and Microsoft, and so on and so forth. But do you see Google Cloud Talent Solution ... which I think is a worse name than High Volume RPO, by the way. Google Cloud Talent- Joel: GoCanvas.io. Chad: Yeah, that's a bad URL. Do you see those enterprise products making an impact? Or is it just a lot of noise? Adam: No, there's definitely an impact. We've seen a lot of the startups that were working on that problem, trying to do some essentially advanced keyword matching, essentially exit the market. So people that are trying to solve some of the same problems, I think they're all looking at Google being like, "Well, Google's in my space now, and it's time to punt." Even look at technology vendors that are thinking about how they're going to build matching, who they're going to partner with. Google's just the easy answer for a ton of them. So I think it's almost going to become the default. I don't know if that's good or bad that they're the default, but I surely see a lot of people using that and continuing to go down that path. Chad: Got you. Joel and I talk about chatbots all the time, but we disagree in some cases. Joel: Never. Chad: Do you believe that chatbots are definitely going to be a part of long-term process and they're big for the market? Or do you just believe they're a waste of time? Adam: I'm actually somewhere in between. Sorry to be that guy. Chad: Dammit! Adam: I actually think that the success of chatbots in talent acquisition is 100% tied to the success of chatbots in our consumer lives. So if the general population gets comfortable with chatbots for banking, for the services they use in their personal life, and there's a wide acceptance of chatbots and that's a way that people want to communicate, then I think it'll succeed in recruiting. I think today we're sort of in the early innings there where people are starting to use chatbots, recognize that they're chatbots, and some pushback and some acceptance. But ultimately, it's more about the process than it is about what it means to the medium. Joel: I assume you'd say the same about virtual reality? Chad: Oh, good God, no! Adam: No, I ... There are a couple of super niche cases for virtual reality, but I actually don't really ever see that hitting mainstream. Joel: No, but your comment about chatbots was, "If it hits mainstream, then I think X, Y, and Z." So what I'm saying is, if VR does become mainstream, is it a viable recruiting tool? Adam: Yeah, certainly. The major problem with VR in recruitment is 6-axis VR is actually pretty cool and could be useful, but you've got to have all this equipment to do it. Otherwise, you're just strapping a phone to your face and walking around. Joel: You say that it's like a bad thing. I'm doing it right now. Adam: So as you get acceptance, it could work, but I actually don't see that being a huge part of our industry in the future. Joel: Fine. Adam: I'm a fun-hater, I guess, huh? Joel: Be that way. Chad: Well, cool, man. I appreciate you taking the time. We obviously wanted to dive deep into tech. Is there something else, another question that's out there, that we didn't ask? Joel: What didn't we ask you that we should have? Adam: I think a couple things, trend-wise, are we're seeing a ton of new technology in diversity and inclusion that I think is interesting. Chad: Ha! Joel: Whatevs. Adam: I think there's a lot of BS there, to be honest. Chad: Yes. Yes, yes. Joel: Yeah. Adam: I think any technology today that has some element where they're not explicitly discriminating against an element, they're like, "Oh, this is a D&I tech," right? So just like we saw predictive analytics and big data and then AI, D&I is like the next buzzword that ends up on everybody's website. But there is some cool tech in that space. You've got Telvista, you've got Blendoor. There are some interesting tools that will help with that. Adam: I think the other big trend that I'm seeing is what I call a second platform where, in the HR tech space, because ATSs have some feature gaps ... I'll leave it there ... people put in point solutions. You know, a couple years ago, you put in Avature for CRM, you put in Yello for campus, you put in Phenom for your website, you put in someone for referrals. And then those companies' clients have all asked them to start building each other's solutions, so there's a fairly big battle shaping up in that second platform space where a lot of those point solutions are now trying to be platforms on top of an ATS. There's going to be some pretty solid consolidation there in the next 12 to 24 months, I think. So I think that's the interesting one for me to watch, too. Chad: Yes. Joel: Awesome. Hey, Adam, man, we know you're a busy guy. Thanks for coming to visit with us for a while. For those who don't know Cielo and want to learn more, where should they go? Adam: Cielotalent.com is our spot. Yeah, we'd love to have a chat. Chad: Excellent, dude. Joel: Excellent. Chad: We out! Joel: We out! Adam: Cool. Thanks, guys. Announcer: This has been the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh, yeah. You're welcome. #Cielo #ATS #RPO #BadAss #Uncommon #chatbots #TAtech

Chad - Welcome to another installment of Chad & Cheese iCIMS iNFLUENCE 2018 Series. In mid-Oct Joel and I flew to NJ and landed at iCIMS HQ for the iCIMS iNFLUENCE event. During the event Colin Day, iCIMS CEO and Chairman of the Board along with other iCIMS leaders shared their common vision for more than just iCIMS. For the industry and how iCIMS will lead in reinventing it. This episode is all about getting rid of the middlemen starting with job distribution.... PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is changing minds and changing lives through disability inclusion. Chad - Talent Acquisition professionals are busy, which is why TA can't even spell programmatic at this point let alone tell you why they would use it. But what if Programmatic was built inside the ATS and became a natural part of the recruiting flow? What if the ATS partnered with Google to facilitate this process? The future is now because it's already happening with some of the smaller ATS providers, but what about Enterprise platforms like iCIMS? Colin - We've got a third initiative going which is obviously they (Google) have announced the dynamic search ads, this is where the money is made. Um, so if you're not happy with the organic traffic coming through Google you can basically buy inorganic traffic. And so we're doing a little bit of this ourselves, we're looking at the industry, we're taking a look at everything going on in programmatic. I see Matt shaking the head, this is the way the industry is going. We very well may buy our way into this market, umm, rather than build there's alot going on. But at the end of the day we do believe that customers should be able to do all their job advertising right out of our platform. Chad - Programmatic straight from the ATS sounds natural right? But what about when the candidate hits the ATS? I mean seroiusly, what is the average ejection rate of a job seeker who starts the application process? Horror stories about Candidate Experience are frequent between many Employer Brand and Talent Acquisition teams.... But wait... Colin - Another initiative we have going on because it's not just about how quickly you get the jobs to Google and how rich is the job data you get to Google, but Google looks at the landing zone. They look at "Where am I going to send this candidate? and what is that?" and we have decided and we're invested and we're building it out as we speak, and we'll probably talk about it alot while you're here. That we're going to meeting Google half way and we are building the next generation of candidate portal, candidate engagement management site. So just like they (Google) want to get rid of the middlemen of the job boards, there's middlemen on the career site in our equation. So the Jibe's, the Phenom's, ecetera, The Muse's. I think our viewpoint is we need to make sure we can do everything they can do. Chad - Is it time to get rid of the middle men and focus on a fluid candidate experience? Candidate engagement platforms were born out of the need to delight - GOD I hate that word - to impress, educate and grab candidate data before they ejected out of the application process in the clunky ATS. So isn't it just natural the ATS would take over this process? Maybe, make it more fluid and not require a candidate apply twice? Sounds good right? But is it really just that easy? Well Colin and the iCIMS crew says we're gonna find out... Chad - You can find more episode in the iCIMS iNFLUENCE 2018 Series at chadcheese.com... or better yet, never miss an episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast by subscribing with iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotifiy or where ever you get your podcasts. #iCIMSiNFLUENCE #iCims #PhenomPeople #Jibe #TheMuse #ATS #CRM #RMP #Marketing #Event

Hello boys and ghouls, it's the Halloween edition of The Chad & Cheese Podcast, which means the boys are counting down everything in recruitment that scared the hell out of them. Hint: The bots are coming! Plus, - Indeed is crushing it, - LinkedIn is teasing you with it - ZipRecruiter is mobilizing it - and Uber is staffing it. Some call an exorcist, because heads will spin! And visit our sponsors, nuthin' but treats, baby: Sovren, Canvas and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Be afraid, be very afraid. It's the Halloween edition of the Chad and Cheese Show, HR's scariest muthafuckers to rock a mic ever. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, Indeed is making more euros than you are. The LinkedIn gravy train is coming to an end, and we recap the scariest shit from last year's show in recruitment. It's mostly treats, but there might be a few tricks for your eardrums. Stay tuned. We'll be right back after an actual ad, finally, from Canvas. Chad: Sweet. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvasbot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: You will never hear Bitmoji next to compliance in any other ad ever. Oh, that's nice, that's nice. So yeah, that was Amber from Canvas. We've always talked about how Sovren has great in-house voice talent, freaking Canvas just knocked it out of the park. That was awesome. Joel: Yeah, who needs stinking voice over talent from Fiverr when you've got in-house talent for free? Chad: No shit. Joel: Shout-outs. Chad: Do it. Joel: HIREConf, we've talked about it before, November 7th through the 8th, New York City. We're gonna be there and we're gonna be tearing up shit. They've given us a discount code for 50%, is that right? Am I reading that right? Chad: Yeah, dude, it's 50% off. Joel: Holy cow, 50% off. Use the code ChadCheese. Dude, if you're in New York, Jersey, anywhere on I-95 that can make it up to Manhattan, you need to be there and now is an extra reason to save some money and be there at HIREConf. New York City, November 7th through the 8th. Is it hireconf.com, I guess? Chad: Yep. It's not Mein HIREConf.com, it's just hireconf.com. If you go to chadcheese.com, we've got a little banner that's there, if you click on that it automatically has the code and it pushes it in, so you don't even have to add the discount code, we've already done that shit for you, or at least Paige did. Joel: You are the Wix Whisperer. Chad: Hey, I also hear that Ed from Philly is gonna be there, so I mean, my big question is should we pull together some friends for him while he's there? Joel: That's what I said. He said he's gonna heckle us, and I said you and all your "friends" that will be there. Those who don't know, give them the back story on this whole friends thing, because it's semi-amusing. Chad: It's hilarious, right. We finally get to meet him in Vegas and I can't remember ... he had said something about friends in Vegas, and I can't remember how the whole conversation started, but we took it to the podcast and said, "Hey, look. Ed from Philly is going to be in Vegas during HR Tech. He needs friends. So let's get some friends together for Ed in Vegas," and that's kind of rolled in to where we always need to help Ed get friends. That's our thing. We love the guy. Joel: We became it's just lunch in Vegas. He's like, "Dude, I have friends. It's just sort of a running joke, Ed. We love you man. It's all good. We'll see you in New York. Chad: Derek Pilcher, thanks for sharing the pod. All the love on Twitter. Todd Markle over at Hello Hire says he's a huge fan, and he's actually just over in Cincinnati. Joel: Nice. Josh Zywien. Chad: Oh, JZ. Joel: I did pronounce that correctly. Shout out to him for giving Indeed some shit about their new staffing firm blockage. He questioned whether or not it was really good for job seekers. Was it really a de-duplication issue or was it just, surprise, about making more money? Chad: Yeah, and I think that's pretty simple. It's like, "This is a better experience for the job seekers because we're taking these jobs out of the organic content, which could be duplicate jobs," and it's like, "Okay, asshole. If that's the case, then why is it they can pay you to put those jobs back in the feed?" It's not in the organic feed, it's in the paid feed, but it's still in the goddamn feed, so how is that good for the job seeker ... Oh, wait a minute, you're getting money. That's how it's good for the job ... That's bullshit. Total propaganda. Big ups for Josh on that one. That was funny. Joel: Shout out to Instagram. The research came out this week that says among the kiddies out there, Instagram is now more popular than Snapchat. I think everyone saw this coming, but the numbers are finally starting to come through. Snapchat, it was nice knowing you. Instagram has taken you over with the children. Chad: Kenny Staubach always gives us love on LinkedIn and I don't think we've ever given him a shout out, so Kenny, our apologies buddy. Here's your shout out. Joel: He's like ... this will age me, but he's like the love child of Roger Staubach and Kenny Stabler. How does that work? Anyway, Dennis Tupper shout out who loves the show. Chad: Yeah. Joel: He's got to be a top 10 fan. The doctor is number one and has been from day one, but Dennis Tupper sent us some funny stuff on LinkedIn we'll talk about at the end of the show, but Dennis is always giving us good stuff and I don't know if we've ever given him a shout out, so big ups to Dennis out there. We love your ears. Chad: We also posted that in a day last week that we had over 1300 listeners. I mean, we're just starting to blow the roof off this thing. Thanks guys for listening. We really appreciate it. But still, get your friends, family, and peers. Get them to listen too. So Tim Sackett says, "This is one of the few podcasts he listens to." And Tim, buddy, so I'm not sure listening to only the episodes you're in over and over and over count, but thanks man. We appreciate it. Joel: I did love Tim's comment that our listenership has to be attributed to Russian hacking. I'm not denying or confirming that, but you know, it is throwing stones and we don't really appreciate that, Tim. But it is what Tim does. Chad: Thanks. Joel: My last one, I think yours too. Go vote, suckas. We're like 12, 11 days here in the States from election day. Journalists are getting hacked up across the world. This is weird times. We got bombs showing up in mailboxes. Go out and vote. Get your voice heard. That's the only way things change if you want things to change, but go vote. And by the way, Uber and Lyft, free rides to the polls on election day. Chad: Yeah, no shit. And they're ... they've expanded voting days for goodness sakes. I can go vote today. You can go vote today in many states, not all states, but they've expanded the voting days. Not to mention companies, some companies, are actually giving election day off so that you can get your ass to the polls. This is our ask of you, if you do anything for the Chad and Cheese, go fucking vote. Joel: It's no fun to vote, not on election day though. I just want to say that. It's fun to go and see the whole democracy in action thing. Don't just walk in with a couple people and go ... Anyway. Chad: Dude, have you seen the lines? Have you seen the lines on some of these though? These early voting? It has been huge. The turnout has been huge, so yeah, if you're in a small town like me, I'm in Columbus, Indiana. That might be the case. But, I don't care when you vote, guys. I don't care. Just go vote. Joel: Shout outs done. Chad: Done. Joel: Can I start my rant? Chad: Yes. Joel: Rant/prediction. So, it was a little more ranty this morning in the shower. It's kind of faded a little. But, those who are in marketing will appreciate this, I think. I'm gonna take you back, a little history lesson, because I understand a lot of our viewers are younger, Millennials love us, but there was a time, late '90s, early 2000s, let's just say late '90s where if you had email, you loved email. When you got an email, it was from your mom, it was from your best friend, it was from the chick you were trying to hook up with, you really looked forward to emails. Joel: Then marketers got to emails and fucked everything up, like marketers always do, right. So spam was a huge issue. So I'd say 2000 to the CAN-SPAM Act of 2002 or whenever it was, that didn't really stop the spam, but spam has destroyed email. Fortunately algorithms are better, Gmail and others are pretty good about filtering really, really bad stuff, but spam is still an issue and most people like me, don't really love email. It's just something like, it's a to do thing. You just gotta go through them. I delete probably 80% of my emails. I'm just too lazy to unsubscribe, because I figure, well maybe I will one day want an Old Navy pullover, so I just keep getting these emails. Joel: So anyway, text has been and is, particularly in the States, a haven for non-spam. For the most part, everything on your phone is you signed up for, it's someone you know, it's legit. Because government has said, "We're gonna fine you to the gills if you spam people on their phones," and to the most part they have. Now historically those kind of spam-y mass text messages have been sent through what's called a short code. A short code is a five to six digit number, you've probably seen text whatever to 22118 or something. It's a shorter number to remember. Those are seriously regulated and to spam through those short codes, you're not gonna have the short code for very long. Joel: So now you have Twilio and other services that make it super easy to get phone numbers, the 11 whatever, 11 digits, how many digits are phone numbers now? They're 10 digits, right? So 10-digit number and then send messages. That's worked great because you can get a phone number real cheap, you can send messages really easily, but I've seen signs recently, particularly with politics happening and the election happening. My wife, for example, was sent a text randomly from a 10-digit number and it was a survey of who she was gonna vote for in West Virginia, because she still has her West Virginia phone number, but that's beside the point. She got a spam about surveying the political landscape. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I got a spam a couple days ago about voting for our senator that's up for re-election. Totally not signed up for anything. It's a 10-digit number. If this thing keeps happening where people are spammed with 10-digit numbers that aren't regulated like short codes are, then that whole thing is gonna be cracked down on big time. I'm not exactly sure how they're gonna do it. Twilio is gonna be under the microscope with what they're doing with just giving out numbers. You're gonna have to have a number for a certain period of time before you can text on. I don't know what's gonna happen exactly, but I can tell you that if marketers fucked up email, they're gonna try ... they're doing their best to fuck up text messaging, and I see signs of it happening, and I say this because not only from a marketing standpoint but it could totally derail companies like Canvas, TextRecruit, etc who do send mass messages and have capability to send mass messages, let's be honest, automatically through their platforms. That could really squash their business, so sort of a rant, sort of a prediction that I think the whole text messaging with 10-digit numbers that are gotten off Twilio for free en masse is probably short lived and I think we're starting to see the early signs of that in the last few months, at least from my anecdotal experience. Rant over. Chad: So the effectiveness ... yeah, the effectiveness goes down dramatically when that starts happening right? And that's the last thing we need. But you know, marketing is still gonna fuck it up. Joel: Yeah. I mean, how mad are you gonna be if you get 12 text messages that you don't know what the hell number it is, who it is, it's a marketing message. People are gonna freak the fuck out if that starts happening. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Not as bad as me freaking the fuck out because we don't need to think about you naked ranting in the shower. Just ... that's not an image I need in my head, okay. Joel: That's YouTube gold right there. It's too bad our mics aren't waterproof. We could do the show from the shower like Kramer style with the garbage disposal. Chad: That's another Rockwell in the shower. Joel: I date us a lot in this show. Chad: You date you. Joel: Most our listeners I think are of a certain age where they've seen Seinfeld and know who Roger Staubach is, maybe I'm wrong. Chad: I think maybe the former, not much is the latter. Yes. Joel: I know. Chad: Indeed. You wanted to talk about Indeed, this whole global thing. Joel: We give Indeed a lot of shit. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And they deserve it, but they are apparently knocking the leather off the ball over in Europe. Recruit Holdings is their ownership. They give public reports and people know numbers. Over in the non-US market, so you've got Europe, you've got the Middle East and you've got Africa, Indeed is destroying it, like crushing it, 66% growth last year, I think 40% growth the year before that. They've doubled their staff. They're building new headquarters, they're in Dublin, Ireland. They're gonna hire 1000 people ... they're gonna get to 1000 people, they're gonna hire another 1000 people in the next year or so. So we give them a lot of crap, but they are doing some really good things over in Europe, Middle East, and Africa markets. Joel: Now, I think what you're gonna say and what I will say is they better enjoy it. Google's coming, LinkedIn's coming, everyone's coming for that market, particularly Google who just launched in Ireland recently, India recently, we know about Canada, and the UK recently. So enjoy it while it lasts I guess would be my caveat to that statement, but for now, man, pop the champagne. Times are good for Indeed over in Europe. Chad: Yeah, well I wonder if the European companies are watching what's happening over here with US Staffing, because staffing in Europe is more prominent for companies to actually go through ... I mean, that's pretty normal to go through a staffing company to be able to get any type of position filled. I wonder if they're watching what's happening over here and just kind of biding time on which that ... when that's actually going to change for them. Joel: Yeah, I don't think they can do it in England. From what I understand, the UK all hiring is pretty much done with staffing companies, and so I can't imagine they could do it over in the UK, but we'll see. Chad: This is a good conversation to have, reach out to Louise or something, to see if the jobs are actually posted on the corporate career sites over there, because if they are then yeah, they could definitely do that. I mean, they could. Since we talked about this big shutting the door to all staffing companies that's gonna happen in January of 2019, I've had plenty of people come out of the woodwork to be able to talk about kind of like from the inside and individuals who have been on the inside about what's been happening there for years. Some of the big staffing companies have had their organic jobs pulled down years ago, but guess what? Those same companies are actually paying more than they did before. Indeed has kind of slow-rolled this whole thing. Indeed just didn't start ripping all staffing jobs down in one day, they started slow-rolling it to see if they'd lose customers, but they gain even more wallet share from others. Chad: Some organizations, I actually had a couple that were pointed to that I won't name, their spend tripled after this happened, so ... Joel: We actually have some live coverage from a staffing company when they learned that Indeed was gonna be pulling the plug on their jobs. SFX: Aaah. Chad: Yeah, that was the Indeed sales rep laughing as they open the door. Yeah, that's ... Chad: Behind this whole thing, sales has targeted companies and they've used kind of like the search quality team as their hatchet men, so if a company wouldn't call their Indeed rep back, their rep would submit a data quality ticket, I think they call it, for the search quality team. The search quality team would then "review" the actual jobs on Indeed and pretty much at that point, they'd get pulled down out of the organic. It was almost like a given that that's exactly the steps that would happen, the jobs would come down. Joel: I love that you call the search quality team the hatchet men, because you're like the nerdiest, lowest key people you'll ever meet that are doing this stuff. Hatchet men, the search quality team. Chad: From what they said is they actually just set those jobs to go to nowhere. They keep the jobs just in case they want to start paying, so they don't have to go through and re-index the feeds or anything like that, but they can send them to nowhere which is where all the CareerBuilder jobs, dot net jobs are going, so you know all of those companies that they provide, kind of like the search pages for, for their corporate career site and have the jobs that are on the CareerBuilder jobs dot net domain and so on and so forth, from my understanding, all those jobs go to nowhere on Indeed today. Joel: Nice. Nice. We actually have another live camera at a staffing company when they learned about Indeed. Chad: Oh come on. What would you be doing if you were a competitor of Indeed right now? Joel: Calling every staffing company I could. Chad: I mean, I would come up with specific programs that were focused on trying to win that dollar, because again, if history shows, and from what we've ... at least what I've been told, is that the staffing companies pretty much just go ahead, pull out their wallet, and say, "Yeah, you got me. I can't do anything about this." Then they just pay, which is ... it just drives me crazy because if you think about it, it's pay per click or it's pay for application. None of that has to do with a qualified candidate and if you take a look at companies like Zip, they're really focused on quality, on quality candidates, not search quality but actual qualified, delivering qualified candidates. Chad: I just can't understand why companies aren't focused in that area to be able to make it more efficient and more cost effective for their dollar. It just doesn't make any sense to me, because Indeed's not really focusing on that right now. They're just throwing as many candidates at you as they possibly can. Joel: I mean, there's a big gap between what job sites are charging still and what companies are paying for this talent. The gap is so wide that companies are gonna continue to pay whatever the hell they have to until that gap is closed, which I don't think it ever will because staffing firms make a ton of money. Chad: They do, but in most cases, they have that talent already in their goddamn resume databases. Joel: That's no fun. Chad: I just ... it's already there. It's like ... I just don't get this at all. You've spent millions, millions of dollars in building a resume, especially if you're a staffing company, in building these resume databases, how you haven't focused on being able to surface talent that you've already paid for and then also refreshing that talent and doing that kind of ... I don't understand. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Oh yeah, I'm just gonna go over here, open up my wallet, pay Indeed so I can get more candidate flow. You're paying for goddamn candidates that you already have in your database probably six or seven times over. Joel: Yeah, okay. Dude, there are some big winners in this. Like everybody else pretty much. Chad: Everybody else as in you mean all the Indeed competitors or ... Joel: Well, if money isn't going to Indeed it's going somewhere, and it's filtering to everywhere else that people are spending money or they're spending more money where they weren't spending before, so to me a lot of the vendor space were probably cheering when Indeed made this move. Chad: If, if they can execute. That's the biggest issue. Because Indeed has been doing this for years now, slowly picking off staffing companies and then staffing companies either do one of two things, they tell Indeed to go fuck themselves or they pull out their wallet and they pay three times or who knows more, just to be able to get their jobs in there. This is really the call to all of those other organizations that are out there to be able to focus on ... I mean, yeah, definitely staffing companies, but just product overall is not just about the traffic, the active traffic. Shit, you've got so many passive candidates that you can activate in your database, it just makes no damn sense to me. Not to mention, you've got other companies that are out there that, again, if you're looking for traffic shit, they deliver traffic too. Joel: Do we still kind of think Indeed will become a staffing firm at some point, or they will have something staffing related? Chad: I think if they're moving that direction, they're gonna lose. Joel: Their owner, that's what they do. Chad: Yeah, in Asia. But this is an entirely different. Joel: They know how to do it, they know the model. Chad: They know how to do it in Asia, dude. It's an entirely different world, I guarantee you. Joel: in Asia? I understand there are cultural differences, but I mean they still talk to each other and interview each other and call each other on the phone and shit. Chad: I totally get it, but it's an entirely different landscape. I just ... I just don't see that happening. Joel: With Indeed's hubris, you don't think they just think they could pull it off? Chad: No. I think they can try, I just think they'll fail and from my standpoint failure being top five, I don't think they'd ever be able to get that big. Joel: And when they fail, we'll be there to talk about it. I think we've hit our Indeed quota for this week's show, what do you think? Chad: Thank God. Let's talk about Zip. Joel: Zip. Going mobile, going AI. Launched Job Seeker Profiles, which is not the most creative name in the world. So essentially they have seven million or so iPhone, iOS, Android users. Now when they use ZipRecruiter they'll be directed to submit sort of this profile/resume. You've uploaded a resume, you can PDF or whatever, it will take the data from the uploaded resume and autopopulate your job seeker profile. Its AI technology will make recommendations to stuff to add or language to change, etc. Joel: It's not huge news. It's not super sexy like mobile is it feels like almost a story that should have been out in 2012 or something, but I do love the AI component, the seriousness about it. We've talked about it a few times. This to me is just another step to say, "We're gonna continue to roll out AI features. We have 200 employees, engineers, working on AI. We've got a new facility in Tel Aviv with 50, 20 to 50 folks working on AI questions," so to me this is just sort of the ongoing onward AI strategy of Zip that we both find pretty interesting. Chad: Yeah, and again, there are very few organizations that are out there today in our space that are dedicated to delivering qualified candidates, and I'm not sure that Zip they're really going down that path and they're going down that path quickly, especially within AI, being able to parse information out of a resume and then provide context and then ... there's just so much that you can do at that point. We don't ... we just don't see enough of that happening as it is, so I really believe that yeah, this is a nice little piece that I think is starting to close the linkages for more of like a Zip ecosystem, per se. A nice add for companies, the SMB side of the house, to be able to reach new and different candidates faster. So just adding more information into the profiles, being able to target better, but I think they're moving in a different direction than many other organizations are and I believe personally they are moving in the right direction, because it's all about quality. Joel: Keep in mind this is on the heels of raising $156 million at a billion and a half I believe valuation, so Zip is definitely one to watch. I still think they're a huge acquisition target for somebody, or a few companies probably, because as a standalone it's gonna still ... it's gonna be tough long term to make it on their own, but they're doing the right things and definitely adding a tech layer to their offering increases their value. It's not just job postings, which we know from history is not worth a lot. Chad: Nope. Joel: And the people and the tech and the data, that's where a lot of the value is and they are definitely building that if nothing else. Chad: They are. Joel: Speaking of awesome tech, let's hear from our sponsor, Sovren, about what they're up to. Chad: Parsing. Joel: Parsing, and all that good stuff. They are real AI, white hat AI. Chad: White hat AI. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products, and now based on that technology comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job, and just as importantly the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates, like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: Love it. Chad: White hat. You were riding up in that white hat. Joel: What did they call it? Was it white hat, like white AI, black AI. I don't know [crosstalk 00:28:50] Chad: Yeah, I think what you're starting to see now is they're talking about white box versus black box. Joel: Oh yeah, that's it. Chad: Yeah, so there are ... like Google is black box. You don't know why you're receiving the type. You don't know what the algorithm looks like, you can't see the algorithm. Google just says, "Hey, this is the best return that you're gonna get," versus some of the other ones that are out there like the Uncommons of the world who have more of a white box kind of scenario so you can see exactly why. Joel: By the way, Uncommon also a sponsor, unveiling some cool shit in the next couple weeks. Just a little teaser out there, but if you're not on the Uncommon bandwagon yet, it's definitely time to get on. Joel: Uber staffing, this kind of came out of nowhere, but maybe not, it makes a little bit of sense, yeah. Chad: It does. I mean, Uber Works is I think the actual, the banner that it's gonna be under. It sounds really cool. I mean it says Uber is quietly developing a short term staffing business called Uber Works to expand on demand model and additional types of temporary work, like waiter, security guards, just all these different areas that just from my standpoint though as I read through it, it was like, "Okay, are you using the base of individuals, like your drivers, as your talent pool?" Maybe they want to also do waiting jobs, like on demand waiting jobs or maybe security jobs. Who the hell knows right if they're qualified? But I didn't really understand where their talent pool was going to come from aside from those individuals who currently drive for them. Joel: Yeah, I think it's ... I think someone at Uber or a few people at Uber said, "Oh my god. Look at the talent base of contract workers or gig workers that we have." It's probably the most in the world. It's probably more than Snag and others that have been doing it for quite a while and someone said, "How do we get them connected to other opportunities, and how do we make a lot of money doing that?" And they already have the infrastructure. People can already use their app, turn themselves on for driving opportunities. It's not gonna be super tough to be like, "Oh, hey, are you open to other opportunities? Like go deliver groceries. Do you want to go deliver dry cleaning? Do you want to go wait tables? Do you want to ... like whatever it is, Uber has the infrastructure and the head count to actually do this thing, so I think it's pretty fascinating. It's a real sort of left turn from where they've been going. I know they're looking to go public soon, so this is like another thing I guess they could build in terms of revenue opportunity and growth, but yeah, it's definitely worth watching. We talk a lot about the gig economy. If anyone is sort of prime to leverage the giggers and mobilize them to opportunities, it's got to be Uber. Chad: So Uber should actually buy Snag so that they can have that database and push it into their system. If they really want to go after something like this, that would make a hell of a lot of sense, wouldn't it? Joel: I don't know if they'd have to buy Snag. I mean technologically they don't. I don't know if Snag has that many more workers. Chad: I'm just talking about on a database standpoint. Joel: Uber doesn't do a lot of acquisitions that I'm aware of, I mean, Uber's not really our lane, but you don't hear much about them. They sort of build it themselves, but yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's just a skunk works project and they'll do a test in San Fran to see what happens and if it works, great, if not, they'll just chunk it. Chad: I like the thought of them spreading out because they are already giving jobs, flexible jobs that are driver jobs, or Uber Eats delivery jobs, to individuals, but being able to expand does provide for a better story for IPO. Joel: Yeah, I mean why can't you hire people for temporary work or gig work on Uber, just like you get a driver? I mean, it's sort of the same. Uber could be like the utility for everything you need work related. Chad: Yeah, and that's what we've been talking about for with Snag, we've kind of seen them possibly moving in this direction of being the Uber of the segment, and they better get their shit together if they're going to be. Joel: Yeah. I mean, Pared with restaurants, Uber Eats, a lot of those relationships are already being forged, but yeah. We're watching you Uber, you're coming over into our space so we're gonna pay attention. Joel: Someone that's been in our space forever is LinkedIn, and there was an interesting blog post by a guy, Tim Queen, I don't know, he's a LinkedIn traffic guru I guess, marketing guy. Had a blog post out basically saying that the gravy train of traffic that people have been enjoying on LinkedIn is coming to an end. Chad: Wait a minute. Is this ... Are we talking about LinkedIn or are we talking about Indeed now? Because it seems very similar here. Joel: Yeah. Gravy train is over for everybody. It is LinkedIn, so anyone who has marketed on social media or at least has posted and seen numbers do what they do knows that Twitter was really nice because there weren't a lot of people on Twitter and it was usually interesting people and like the commentary was interesting. Their algorithm has not really changed. They're trying to change it and they've sort of suffered for masses of people and whatnot. Facebook didn't want to come under that same scrutiny so they created an algorithm based on likes and engagement and what kind of content they know is more favored, a little bit curated because of the fake news thing, so you used to get a ton of traffic on both of those and you've seen that fade a little bit, unless you really post some good shit. Joel: For a long time, LinkedIn has been great for things like if something is liked, it's shared on that person's feed, sharing was like ... they just paid a lot of attention to getting engagement with users and everyone kind of knew that the traffic train was going to come to an end and that you would have to pay for the traffic or you'd have to be really creative and that seems to be happening. Video was a great example, and you and I lived this because on ... was it draft night or Superbowl night of this year, you and I posted a video on LinkedIn which was really stupid, it was just us saying ... I don't even know what we said, like, "Hey, from Chad and Cheese. We're here watching the Superbowl." Whatever. And it got like thousands of views and it was ridiculous. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Those days are over. You can't just post a video and get a bunch of traffic. You actually have to have good content in order to engage, so anyway, it's now time to move on to ... I don't know, Snapchat or Instagram or somewhere else because the traffic gravy train is coming to an end at LinkedIn for crappy content. Chad: So here's a question though. I mean are just companies going to be challenged to kind of Facebook boost on LinkedIn or is this going to be an individual thing? Because most people post as individuals. This is just like our video. It might be company stuff, it might not be company stuff, who knows, so I wonder if this is gonna be like individual account based or how that's actually going to work, because LinkedIn is really used in a much different fashion than Facebook is. Joel: One example I think that the post talked about was if you posted like a blog style update to LinkedIn, which is great, and it typically gets a lot of engagement, if you're not ... so they have ... basically they have premium users or like people that have been approved, sort of the blue badge folks. Those people will continue to post and I think still get a ton of engagement. The average Joe who just posts a blog on LinkedIn, unless it's really good, is not gonna get a whole lot of engagement, and the reason that they pushed that initially was they wanted people to post so they got more exposure and people posted, now they're used to posting and they hope that people still do that. Joel: The same as with video. Anyone who posted a video got a lot of engagement to make people post more videos, but now just because you post a video doesn't mean you're gonna get engagement. Now I do think it's interesting to think that Facebook used to have for personal users, a little boost button and for $7 you could have your birthday announcement or your wedding engagement boosted throughout your network. They've taken that away, because either I guess nobody used it or it was confusing or people didn't like it. I could definitely see a thing for LinkedIn where you boost something and you get exposure where you didn't before or you've lost exposure. I do think they're trying to get more companies engaged. Their new insights have branding. They just bought Glint for $400 million. That's a company solution right that you'd use on LinkedIn, so I think they want them ... companies to post more, they want to get people ... companies to get more followers, and that could be part of where the algorithm goes, but yeah, I think it will affect everyone, but I think if you're a personal user and you've been really enjoying the engagement and the traffic that you were getting on LinkedIn, I think that that could be short lived and you may have to start paying for the exposure that you used to like. Chad: That fucking sucks. Joel: Welcome to capitalism baby. If it don't make money it don't make sense. Chad: Kill me. Joel: But what does make sense is JobAdX. Another awesome sponsor. Let's take a break on them and then we'll get to the scary shit for the Halloween season in recruitment. JobAdX: As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX has been providing job board publishers, direct employers, agencies, RPOs, and staffing firms dynamic job bidding and real time ad delivery through our programmatic job advertising exchange. When we started, we described JobAdX as AdSense for jobs. Now we offer much more with switchboard and live alert, completing our full suite of dynamic programmatic advertising tools with the best of consumer ad tech. Switchboard offers our dynamic technologies to all partner job board feed management and live alert eliminates latency and expired job ads via email. For more information about any of our ad solutions, please reach out to us at joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@jobadx.com. JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for all your advertising needs. Chad: Smooth as butter. I mean we did ... those ads, Sovern, Canvas, JobAdX, I mean they're smooth as butter. Joel: Can we get to the scary shit? Chad: For everybody out there, Joel, this is like Joel's favorite time of the year I think, because when we start talking about Halloween and talking about scary shit, it's almost like he lights up on the microphone. If it's anybody's time right now, this is Joel Cheesman's time. So let's all listen. Joel: I like the holidays in general, like from October to January 1st, it's just like the best time. Chad: It is. Joel: It's eating, drinking, the holidays. Chad: Napping. Joel: The temperature changes. The trees change. Football season, baseball World Series, basketball starts, hockey starts. It's the best time, and Halloween just rockets that off. If you have young kids like I do, Halloween is especially great because kids care and they dress up and they carve pumpkins and they go to the hay ... whatever, the farm, and they do corn mazes and all this Midwest shit that a lot of people don't appreciate, but yeah, it's a great time of year and I twisted Chad's arm to be like, "Dude, we gotta do a Halloween segment. Let's talk about some of the scary shit that we've talked about in recruitment over the last year or so." Joel: I don't know how you want to do this. We could each take one or just- Chad: Let me start off with Sophia is the creepiest thing I've seen this year. Period. Joel: All right, give the people who don't know Sophia or women named Sophia out there, tell them what you're talking about. Chad: So the android thingy that whoever ... whose robot is this? I can't remember now. Joel: I don't know. It doesn't matter. Chad: It doesn't matter. Anyway, it's an android-ish type of ... kind of plastic face that has the facial smiles and it just ... it is as creepy as shit, go to YouTube, we're gonna be saying this a lot during this segment, go to YouTube, put in Sophia robot and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Creepy as shit. Joel: Yeah. Her brain is glass and you can see the cords and the wiring. Again, on the YouTube while you're searching her, throw in Will Smith in there. He has a date with her and [crosstalk 00:42:09]. She interacts with him as an AI robot and he's Will Smith so it's pretty entertaining. So yeah, Sophia scares the shit out of us. Joel: I will add on the robot category Boston Scientific, you need to quit it. The first robot was kind of cute, it looked like a dog. It basically jumped a little bit and it kind of walked. Now the robots look like scorpions and they climb walls and they shoot guns and they're creeping me out, big time. Scientific, Boston Scientific, quit it. You're scaring me, goddammit. Chad: Yeah, that shit is scary as hell. So there is an episode, a "Black Mirror" episode where these dogs are actually sent to kill humans. That is some freaky crazy shit, and they look like these Boston Scientific dogs, let alone these fricking robots who are like ... I mean they look like militarized almost robots that can go like anywhere and do just about back flips and shit like that. Joel: Dude, the '80s is the future. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: RoboCop, Terminator, anything you want to know about the future, just go watch movies from the '80s. Chad: Yeah. So, the next one is one of my favorites, because I love the movie "It." Joel: What was the robot ... it was on a tread, like a tank tread and it had arms. Chad: It was like Johnny Five is alive. Joel: Yes. Five is alive. Because he got struck by lightning. Chad: That's a stupid fucking movie. Joel: In the '80s. Chad: So yeah, creepy clowns. From Hurts Donuts, we talked about this last week. This is the coolest thing and the funniest thing in the world, but yet, go to YouTube, I told you I was gonna say this, go to YouTube, look up creepy clown Hurts Donuts, that's the name of the company, Hurts Donut, that's fucking awesome too and look at. Dude, it is the funniest thing ever. They send these clowns into the office with donuts to deliver and just scare the shit out of people. It is fricking hilarious. Joel: It's totally hilarious and every business should do something like this because it's awesome. But yeah, creepy clowns delivering donuts. Awesome. All right, dude. This is brand new scariness. Our boy Tupper sent this. Job posting on Facebook for research scientist, which isn't threatening, research scientist virtual humans. Chad: What? Joel: Facebook is apparently developing virtual human beings because they don't have enough human users, they want virtual users too, but this is gonna be like 3D. It goes way beyond hologram. This is you in virtual form showing up to work, or this is you ... Anyway, this is all really creepy stuff because robots aren't enough to think about, now we've got virtual humans roaming the halls of the workplace, roaming the mall, whatever. Chad: So holograms, I mean that's the thing that we're talking about, right? Joel: Facebook's virtual humans. Let's just leave it at that and we'll keep an eye on what goes on. Chad: Are they working with Cambridge Analytica on this so that they can have like virtual trolls as well? Joel: Let's hope they're not working with Boston Scientific, because then I'm just leaving the planet. Chad: Yeah. Bullshit. Joel: Last but not least, I always feel like somebody's watching me. Chad: Watching me. I have no privacy. Joel: Oh. All right, more '80s references. Rockwell, the hit song, "Somebody's Watching Me." The last thing that scares the hell out of us, Google is now on their G-suite watching you and whether or not you're using the software. Chad: Big Brother, man. Joel: Yeah, so if you're using this to recruit, if you're using Google Hire, whatever, your boss will find out if you're not using it so you better use your freaking Google licenses. Chad: I don't know if you remember this, but we earlier this year actually talked about Slack doing the same thing, so Slack, because that is ... again, that is used in many organizations, is starting to better understand sentiment and some of the messages and some of the documents and things like that to better understand how happy or sad your employees are and, possibly, if they're getting ready to leave. So those types of things, it's like, you've got to be ... really? Joel: Yep. So everyone's gonna be popping Xanax's so Big Brother doesn't know how they're feeling and what they're gonna be up to. Chad: Yeah. Beautiful. Joel: We out? Chad: We out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad, and his goofy friend, Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new Track Spikes, you know, the expensive shiny gold pair that are extra, because, well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Indeed #LinkedIn #ZipRecruiter #Uber #UberWorks #Vote #Elections #Halloween

Holy Hell! Halloween must be close, because companies are losing their minds and scaring the shit out of us. On this week's show, - Start-ups call bullshit on LinkedIn's blacklist - Indeed kicks all staffing firms to the curb - Blinders on their cubical jockeys -- 1984 meets Mr. Ed - Scary clowns are delivering donuts to your office - Start-ups get money (ConveyIQ, Timely & JobUFO) - while HireVisor joins the Dead Pool The boys also give their takeaways from spending a full day with iCIMS. Enjoy, and checkout sponsors JobAdX, Sovren and Canvas ... they've only got treats for ya'! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast! Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast! Joel: Back from Jersey, it's the born to run episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, we give takeaways from the iCIMS Influence Conference. LinkedIn has a blacklist, and scary ass clowns are invading a donut shop near you. We must be getting close to Halloween. Some weird shit is going down. Chad: Yes. Joel: Stay tuned. We'll be right back after this word from Canvas. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvasbot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy, and are laser focused on recruiter success. Canvas: Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes we'll tell you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: All right. Let's get to the shout outs, man. We got a fairly limited list this week, so our listeners who hate shout outs will enjoy that. Chad: Our listeners love shout outs. Shut up, man. So right out of the gate, big thanks to old friends, Susan Vitale, Colin, Adam, Andrew, and the rest of the iCIMS crew who brought us out to their new digs in Jersey. I mean, I remember when they were a little applicant tracking system thingie, right? And they got up and running and we were working on source coding back in like, I don't know, 2004 or maybe even before that. But anyway, watching these guys grow from that small place in Hzslet, right? To this huge, amazing, fricking, what'd they call it? Like mega-hub or some shit like that? At Bell Labs. That was amazing. That was amazing. Joel: Yeah, I gotta agree. Watching these guys grow, and there aren't a ton of success stories like this. Limited funds that they've taken, I think they've only recently taken some decent amount of money, but yeah. Watching them grow from nothing to what they are today has been great, and additionally, a lot of the players and people that have been there for quite a while are still there. Susan, I know she's been there for 13 year, and shout out to her. She's expecting a little Susan in the next month, right? November? Chad: Yeah, on Thanksgiving, so that'll be a nice little busy time. Hopefully all family will be around and it'll just be wonderful. And she'll be able to drink wine at that point, which is awesome, because I know she misses that. Joel: Did you just call her a wino? I think you did. Chad: No, I'm not a wino. I like wine. Joel: Shout out to HIREconf, the HiringSolved event November 7th and 8th in New York. Chad and I will be there raising hell. If you're in town, come by. If you're going to the event, make sure you say hi. Chad: HIREconf. Can I just say, sounds like Mein Kampf. Christian Malpeli- Joel: So now you're calling HiringSolved Nazis, and you're calling Susan Vitale a wino. Chad: I said it sounds like it! Christian, shout out over at jobboard.io/ZipRecruiter. I thought it was funny- Joel: I think it's pronounced job boardio. Chad: No. I think it was funny he spelled it out in the email for you so that you could actually say I-O. So jobboard.io. Joel: Yeah. Christian, hats off for the sense of humor. That was nice, and thanks for listening. Chad: Yeah, totally appreciate that. Yeah, thanks for dinner and drinks while you're in Indy. The funny thing is, I see Matt Plumber probably twice as much as I've ever seen Christian, and the guy's never taken me out for drinks, dinner, or anything like that. So Matt, you know. Candlelit dinner- Joel: Candlelit dinner. Chad: Maybe some cereal money. Maybe some cereal money. I don't know. I don't know. Joel: Yeah. I'm sorry I couldn't make dinner, I have a young child, and getting out for those wild nights doesn't happen as much as I'd like, so maybe next time I can enjoy a dinner with you and Christian, wherever that may be. Shout out to Dinah, or Dina. I think Dinah Robaski from TMP- Chad: Oh, from TMP. Joel: Yeah, Grasso turned her onto the show. She's been a big fan, so Dinah. Shout out to you. Chad: No, Dina, she is like the super fan at TMP. She is. Joel: Nice. Chad: So no, this is, Dina isn't just kind of like a listener. She like gathers people at TMP to listen to the show. I think they actually might have a listening kind of a thing going on, which is really cool. Joel: That's cool, yeah. She's, I think her comment was thanks for being the smartest thing in my ears or my car radio, whatever it was. However she listens, she's very complimentary, so Dina, we appreciate it, and we'll keep talking if you keep listening. Chad: Off of that one, I'm just gonna go the other way. So shout out to Josh Akers. Josh pointed out that I wasn't smart enough to be sitting next to Kyle Lagunas during the iCIMS Influence Meeting, which he was probably right, but my response Josh, very simply, fuck you. Yeah, now. He's probably right, but don't call me out for that shit, asshole. Joel: Did we really just bring out Josh Akers on this show? Chad: I know. I know. Joel: Oh, we love you Josh. That's it for me from shout outs. What else you got? Chad: I've got Terry Baker, quick shout out. Thanks for the Amazon AWS intel. The learning center, trying to get pipeline talent. The big thing though is are they focusing on females in that program? Because we were talking about Amazon's AI, which was kicking females to the curb. So what is Amazon actually doing? Yeah, they've got a learning center. That's cool. What are they doing to actually funnel females into those programs since they are light in that area? Chad: Thanks to Next, Uncommon, and Canvas for my traveling gear. Joel: By the way, iCIMS having Yeti giveaways- Chad: Oh dude, that was awesome. Joel: Is genius. And I'm using mine right now. If you don't know Yeti, you should. It's cooler system, koozies. They have a whole line of stuff to keep stuff cold or hot, and the fact that iCIMS has them as giveaways was pretty stellar. So shout out. Chad: Are they sponsoring the show now? Because I'd really like the Yeti-sponsored show. Joel: Well, maybe. We'll see. We'll see. They talked about writing us a blank check to buy the show so maybe that'll happen. Chad: Oh. I like that. So last, last but not least, grand champion edition of Death Match dropped this week. Aman Brar and Canvas, and I'm gonna put all the different Death Match contestants tagged in a group, so if you go to podcast on chadcheese.com, look in the right rail, click on Death Match, you can hear them all. Joel: We are the champions. Way to go, Canvas. Chad: Good job, guys. Joel: Death Match, take a listen. You'll see why they were the winners. Let's get to the show. Chad: I see that. Joel: I haven't done the boxing (SFX). There we go. Chad: There we go. Joel: All right. iCIMS. Let's talk about takeaways from the show, what we learned, what we didn't. What you got? Chad: Yeah, so first right out of the gate, class. Sheer class. It was a great experience bringing us in to talk to us about really history, roadmap, and vision, right? Vision and roadmap. So I mean, that was really a cool time, having the executive team there and really answering direct questions, right out of the gate. Joel: And I'll add courage to the class. So apparently some our analyst, blogger, media friends alluded to the fact that Chad and I don't get quite as many invites because we're a little bit dangerous. We're a little bit critical. We're a little bit, they don't like us kind of thing- Chad: They're afraid. Joel: And the fact that iCIMS had some courage to bring us on was really good. So I'll add courage to the class. Chad: Yeah, if you want real analysis or at least our thoughts and opinions, then we're gonna give them to you. And if you don't, then yeah. Definitely don't ask us to come. Joel: Exactly, exactly. If you want people to just blow sunshine up your ass, don't invite the Chad and Cheese Show. Chad: That's just not gonna happen. Joel: Yeah, not gonna happen. Chad: Okay, so one of the biggest things that I loved hearing is that iCIMS is going to own the primary source of jobs, because Google apparently applied more value to sites like the Indeeds of the world, who were jamming jobs down Google's throat as fast as they could get them, and they were pounding the iCIMS site like every five minutes. I mean, just killing all these different company sites to be able to get new content faster, where iCIMS would send them out probably maybe once every 12 hours, 24 hours or what have you. Joel: It was daily, actually, is what Colin Day, the CEO, mentioned, that they were doing it daily whereas the Indeeds were doing like every five minutes. Chad: Every, just pounding their servers. So I think it was cool that Colin and team are starting to figure out that from a Google for jobs standpoint, what is actually going to help them be seen in Google's eyes as the primary source. Colin said something about actually becoming the fast lane to jobs, which means when they get jobs, they're gonna be pumped into Google, and everybody else is going to be the slow lane. So the Indeeds of the world and those different companies, they're not going to be pounding the shit out of iCIMS servers like they used to. They're probably going to be ratcheted down to a few times a day or something of that nature. So that'll be interesting. Joel: Yeah, I think two things from that. iCIMS is clearly all in on Google. The CEO Colin Day mentioned that this was, Google getting into the game was the biggest thing he's seen in 20 years. In his experience, he believes or he quoted 80% of new candidate traffic came in via Google. Some people will argue that, but even if it's 20%, it's still a pretty significant number of incoming traffic. And secondly, that the middlemen are in trouble. iCIMS recognizes that they are the source of jobs, but they've been relegated because of job boards in the past who have outranked them in searches for the old, traditional searches as the main, original source for job postings, and that just isn't the case. And he, iCIMS, and I'm sure many ATSs are realizing that they are the main source. They should be the one that gets credit for that source in Google. Colin mentioned slowing down the lanes for job boards. He wasn't specific about how much, but certainly the days of five minute scraping of ATSs is gonna be a thing of the past, at least for iCIMS. Joel: They want to be the original source for those jobs on Google, and I think they're working very closely with Google to get, what data do we need? What's the schema that you want? I mean, they're all in on Google and they're all in on taking it out on the middleman that have sort of ravaged their servers for a decade. Chad: Yeah. Well, they are the original source. I mean, that's the thing. Now, you have to learn from Google why you're not showing up as the most trusted source, because you are the most trusted source. You are the point of origination. So they're figuring that shit out, and I have to commend them for that and being able to go to the next point of middlemen. I mean, taking a look at some of the recruitment marketing types of layers that are between the job boards and the applicant tracking system and really just kind of like the user experience systems that are out there. They're gonna take them on as well. Joel: Yeah, so historically, for those that don't know, typically the ATSs have been just the job search component. There hasn't been a lot of design thought with some of these sites. Usually the company itself will create some branding pages. Hey, what's it like to work here? Check out this video. And then there'd be sort of this ugly button at the bottom of the page that says, search jobs now, which would take you to the ATS. Joel: Companies like Jibe, The Muse feed on people that have come along, and historically, they provided mobile design first. They offered SEO first, and then eventually, the ATSs of the world had nice URLs for search engines. They got the jobs into Google and other search engines. So those companies went away. The companies that did mobile only, well, eventually the ATSs learned how to go responsive, and then those companies went away. Joel: So the idea is that, okay, these middlemen that are using design, letting companies, or design pages that are mobile, put on videos, et cetera, that they're in trouble as well. In 2019, iCIMS announced that they are going to launch a product called Attract that is essentially a set of templates. Companies can pick those templates. They can customize those however they want, and it will integrate seamlessly with the job search component. Joel: So arguably, the days of those middlemen that are designing sites and doing branding experiences could be coming to an end, because at least iCIMS is figuring out how to put in design in their product. Chad: Yeah. See, that's not gonna happen. That's not gonna happen. The people that are actually designing the sites, and they're launching and they're doing all that. That's not going to happen, because employers will not do that on site. They won't. So they're going to have to have an agency do that. What this will do though is you take a look at a lot of those platforms that are out there, those content management platforms, those RMPs, CRMs, what have you. iCIMS is building all of that on the front end of their applicant tracking system. So they're building that UX piece with the CRM included and also the RMP pieces. Chad: So from the cosmetic piece, you can have your agency still do all that cool stuff that you want them to do. Unlimited pages, go crazy with your footprint, yada, yada, yada. But when it comes down to offering a platform, iCIMS is gonna start doing that. So all of the platforms that are out there today who only do that, this is a warning signal. Joel: Yep. And we got the idea that the design will happen in a Wix or Weebly type fashion as opposed to the company designing the HTML and doing that on their own, which will inevitably be a cost savings to the company, because the design stuff, the HTML becomes expensive when agencies do that for them. Chad: It's not just that piece. It's also being able to easily get the candidate from one platform to the next. So right now, if you're using some of these content management types of systems and you want to be able to ask for information and maybe even a resume or something like that, getting that resume into the applicant tracking system for most of the applicant tracking systems is a bitch. Now, if you have an integrated system that is built on the same platform, that all runs nice and smooth. Joel: I agree. Another takeaway that I had was, I don't know if you could put it into maybe mobile/messaging/automation. These are three trends that are very hot with iCIMS, and I assume that they are with many of the other applicant tracking systems and competitors out there. So for those who don't know, iCIMS acquired TextRecruit in January of this year. TextRecruit we've talked about a lot, sort of messaging, mobile messaging, for candidates and recruiters. They're building out a whole suite of products where internal communications happens, automation, you know, one to many communications happen within a company. Erik Kostelnik who is founder and CEO of TextRecruit spoke, which I found really interesting. One of the things that he said was, "There should not be a human interaction until the interview. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So, where his head is, is a full sort of suite of automated messaging, chat bot if you will, of pre-screening, interviewing, applying- Chad: Scheduling. Joel: Automatically. And then until there's an actual interview there's no human interaction. So, to me that's where iCIMS head is and that's where I think a lot of other companies are going. But they really highlighted that in the event and I think that's something that I'm gonna pay attention to as we move forward. Chad: Yeah it's all process. We're seeing it all over the place. I mean it's RPA. There's some AI in there in some cases but it's RPA. It's just all process automation and it just makes sense. Because if you can take those little tasks out of the sourcer and or recruiter's hands, cause they don't need to do it, they can focus on being brand ambassadors and really having that human to human contact. Joel: I agree. I also took away that, if you're not supporting the enterprise, that life is gonna be really hard for you. And this is sort of underscored by the fact that Google has a lightweight ATS. LinkedIn launched their ATS very recently. Facebook, I assume, will have some sort of easy candidate management, apply you know with your LinkedIn or with your Facebook profile. And so the companies that are sort of servicing the small to mid-level ATS market, it's gonna be in trouble. And the sense of iCIMS is that, the Googles of the world are not gonna be you know looking to penetrate the enterprise market anytime soon because of the amount of complexity that goes into servicing the enterprise. Chad: Yeah and I think ZipRecruiter's actually going at this in a different manner. Instead of buying a seat for a software, what you're doing is, you're actually just buying access to post jobs programmatically, and tap into their database when you need it, right? So it's not always there, you're not paying monthly fees unless you actually need it. You go out, you post a job, that's when the feed goes in place. You still have your seat there and available but it's not active unless you're actually using it. Chad: So I think Zip is looking at this in an entirely different way than most of the other small, SMB types of applicant tracking systems that are out there. And again, Zip is doing shit right man. They're thinking about how small to medium sized business companies actually do work every single day and if they need an actual, an applicant tracking system every single day. They probably really don't. So yeah that's really cool and it'll be awesome to see Zip go from the SMB, don't know how long this is gonna take, to the enterprise. But yeah, there's some big names that are there and there's some different visions of what an applicant tracking system could and should be for the SMB market. Joel: The last takeaway for me that I thought was interesting was the announcement of iCIMS Passport. Chad: Yes. Joel: The Passport products will, is essentially born out of the fact that job seekers would go to multiple career sites powered by iCIMS, and have to reapply for each one of those even though it's primarily most of the same profile because iCIMS is sort of powering each one of those for these companies. So the idea is that you'll have an iCIMS Passport which will be transferable between all the companies that use iCIMS. Which is interesting in and of itself but, more interestingly than that was how does Passport become almost a LinkedIn competitor, or something where companies can source profiles on LinkedIn Passport, among many, many companies. So I think how they do that will be interesting and I think they're still working through some of that. But the fact that they wanna have a cohesive passport for a job seeker to use amongst all iCIMS products, is a pretty interesting development, and I think we'll be watching that one really closely. Chad: It's interesting because we've seen this throughout the years. AllianceQ did it. They had some big names, that were pooling resumes, right? It's all kind of like a, almost like a universal kind of resume which I think that's what Taleo called it at one time. Joel Yeah. Chad: JobFox did it. I mean these companies have done this before. The one thing that they did not have, GDPR. That shit dude, I mean that is going to scare the shit out of companies, not just overseas, but the compliance mechanisms that are going to start to gravitate this way to the United States, I mean yeah. Candidate data is candidate data. It's candidate rights type of thing which I think is really cool and that's the kind of messaging that we're hearing out of iCIMS. You know that's fair, and it just makes sense, right? So at the end of the day, there's a big hammer, compliance, that iCIMS can use today that JobFox, AllianceQ and Taleo could not. Joel Yeah you know, one of the things that Colin said was that they wanted to be the moral compass for candidate experience. And I think that was a theme as well of like, you know, we've focused so much on the company and the employer, for the last ten, twenty years, now is the time where we really have to think about the candidate and their experience. And I think a lot of that's driven by regulation. He also mentioned, you know, the whole, Facebook, you know, disaster that they had with data and privacy. And so, so I think, yeah. Part of Passport is gonna be driven by the reality of GDPR and that the candidate has rights. That those should be adhered to. Chad: We're moving into a much different, landscape than we were back in the Job Box days. Joel: Agreed. Well let's take a quick break and we'll talk about Indeed and LinkedIn's blacklist. Chad: Ha ha. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now, based on that technology, comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidate scored by fit to job, and just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by vising sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates, like a human. Sovren. Software so human, you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: You wanna take it to dinner. Oh yeah, and shout to our buddies at Sovren because if we're not there before then, but we're gonna be at TAtech in Austin in 2019. So start to get everything ready for a big Sovren TAtech fall event. Joel: Yeah I think, yeah if Sovren wants to have a party and have Chad and Cheese there, you know, like I think we're game for that. Hint hint. Chad: Yeah cause you know they're gonna bring the bourbon. Joel: Alright dude, you've got some news on Indeed cock blocking some folks. What's going on there? Chad: Yeah it's funny. From the Recruitics camp, I don't know. I think this is all kind of like rumor out there, which is fine. But we've also seen this, right? So supposedly in January, all staffing companies are gonna get kicked off of Indeed. Now it's been happening slowly already. I mean I've already heard from many of my friends in the industry that they've been doing it for probably, over a year now. But I think it's really hard for a company like Indeed to give that money away, even though they're doing it. But yeah, that's the rumor, is guess what guys? Indeed's gonna be throwing a huge, and they've been doing this, a huge ton, massive, amount of cash back into the market. So all of those Indeed competitors, guess what guys? Indeed just did you a huge fucking favor. Joel: Why do you think, I mean I get from a maybe user perspective, but Indeed is doing some weird stuff. You know they're not playing with Google, I mean they're at risk with ATS's being the primary source for jobs. They're losing more and more traffic, like they're turning their backs on money that staffing firms and others wanna spend with them. I have a hard time wrapping my head around what sort of the goal is of all this stuff. Chad: So okay, so first off, right out of the gate, I mean when I was at Monster, I mean staffing was 75% of our revenues, right out of the gate. Just because staffing adopts things so much faster, if it makes sense. They adopt things so much faster than talent acquisition. Talent acquisition sits and waits and there's just a longer adoption cycle there. Chad: So 75% of the revenue when I was with Monster. That revenue, period, is always going to be there. It's not like they're going to switch over, right? So that's revenue that they're automatically going to lose. Now long term, do they believe Indeed Prime, is going to take a 100% of the staffing market? I mean is that really what they think is gonna happen? Because that would be really the big play here, right? Oh we're going to become a staffing company, and we only want the candidates coming to us, not to you. So these are our candidates. We want them coming to us, not to you. But, to to be able to make that work, you need 100% of the market, really. Or maybe not 100%. Maybe, it's gotta be a large percentage though, right? So they're losing a shit ton of money, for what reason, I have no clue. Joel: I don't hear a lot about Prime anyway. Do you think that Indeed is really focused on that product? Chad: I have no fucking clue dude. I have no clue why they would do something like this. I mean, and what they're talking about right now, we keep hearing about search quality, right? It's all about search quality. Well, it's pretty fucking simple. If you tell a company, we're going to kick you off of Indeed unless you do X, Y, Z, then guess what's going to happen? They're going to do X, Y, Z, especially if they're a staffing company and they're seeing ROI out of your product. Because staffing companies again, they react much quicker than your talent acquisition, just your regular, you know, direct employer company. So yeah man. I mean from my standpoint, this makes no sense. But, again, just like we're seeing on the Google side of the house where they're not playing Google with Google for jobs, all these different company's competitors are actually seeing more traffic cause they're now getting a redistribution of old Indeed traffic. And now guess what? They're gonna get a redistribution of old Indeed money. Joel: Now the company that owns them is primarily a staffing company. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So maybe the staffing play's it. Like they wanna be the, I mean there's a ton of money in staffing. Chad: How big are they in the U.S.? Joel: Not. Chad: That's what, I mean. Joel: It looks big. Chad: If you're looking to make a play, if they're looking to make a play, they would have to make a staffing play, right? And it just doesn't make any sense, whatsoever. Joel: Yeah and at least like let them advertise. Chad: Right. Joel: I mean you can sort of, you know, you can algorithmically or visually, you know, give them lower exposure or less exposure. But damn, the just to shut the door, is pretty crazy. Chad: So yeah. And this goes pretty much into other things that I'm hearing from more than one source, multiple sources actually, like half a dozen sources, of UX platforms, who are getting kicked off of Indeed as well. So, like we were talking about with iCIMS, if you have this platform that you're using as a CRM and your user experience platform, and you want to be able to post the jobs and have the candidates come to this platform, really cool landing pages and just all experience and content which is what you're paying for, they are gathering data, on that platform, which is exactly what you want, right? Maybe just little bits of data. Indeed is saying guess what guys? You're not allowed on our platform anymore either. How does that make any sense? Joel: It's hard for to wrap my head around it and I've been around a while. So, if anyone else can help us figure this out, hit us up at chadcheese.com. Chad: Yeah. Anybody who is collecting, job seeker data, anybody, and I mean staffing companies, that's what they do, right? I mean that's a part of what they do. These UX companies, these user experience or candidate experience companies, that's why clients pay them. Joel: Yeah. Chad: But I have heard from several companies saying that they've either been, there's an indication that that is rolling out and going to happen or it has already happened. Joel: Well speaking of blacklists, apparently LinkedIn has one too. There was blog post- Chad: Holy shit. Joel: By a Josef José Kadlec. I'm probably saying that incorrectly, but he had a blog post that's gotten a lot of attention. Of companies, mainly Chrome extensions- Chad: Plugins. Joel: That have been blacklisted, by LinkedIn. Some of these we know. SeekOut, he's been on the show before. TalentBin owned by Monster. A lot of sort of small players. Entelo's on the list as well. Chad: Wow. Joel: So this list came out, got a lot of attention. I decided to do a little bit of Q and A or questioning of folks. So, LinkedIn has an official statement that I'll read here. It's a little lengthy, not too lengthy, but I'll make it quick. Joel: So quote, "Our members control the information that they make available to others on LinkedIn and they trust us to honor that control. To protect our members, we don't permit the use of any software including crawlers, bots, browsers, plugins, or browser extensions, that scrapes or copies member data or that automates activity on or alters the appearance of LinkedIn pages. These tools are prohibited by our user agreement and may violate the law. This means that any LinkedIn member or customer who uses a tool like this is also violating the user agreement." Which I think is pretty interesting to go after the LinkedIn members. Chad: That's bullshit. That's bullshit. Joel: Yeah so that was their quote. Yeah, I know you're not real happy about that. Chad: These provide efficiencies for companies, period. That's what they do, that's why they're there. And LinkedIn is really just kind of like the HiQ side, right? HiQ's like wait a minute, they're going to, they're going to create a competing product to us, okay, totally get it you know. Fair is fair. Capitalism, all that other fun stuff. But guess what? Now it's more of like a monopoly. No we're kicking your ass out of our ecosystem, even though our customer and your customer paid for your product, to be able to do exactly what it's doing. We're telling you to get the hell out of our ecosystem. Joel: So I did reach out to Darren Kaplan, at HiQ, because we haven't heard an update on their case for a while. Chad: Yeah. Joel: His message to me was that it's been radio silence from the court, and he'll keep us posted. So that either, either LinkedIn's lawyers have that sucker wrapped up in paperwork, or something. But that thing has hit a road bump. I reached out to Anoop Gupta from SeekOut, who we've also interviewed. If you haven't listened to that, you should. He wrote, "Thanks for reaching out. I'm curious where you learn," which I shared the blog post. He said, "Here's our understanding. LinkedIn tries to detect a bunch of extensions that are installed. SeekOut is one of these. However, to the best of our knowledge, LinkedIn is unable to detect if SeekOut is installed, as we don't have any web accessible resources and we don't make any changes to the webpage. So all they," this is good. "All they can do is try to scare people," which is why my question, if you know anyone else who's been actually banned due to the use of an extension. So ... Chad: Yeah, yeah. See I love that. Joel: Yeah and Anoop's a really smart guy, way smarter than we are. So that comment was really interesting. Chad: Oh god yeah. Chad: Also .. He used to advise Bill Gates. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Anoop used to advise Bill Gates guys. So that's pretty much, you know, and again I'm paraphrasing, Anoop saying, you know, screw you guys. We've got this shit covered. Joel: True story. And then I reached out to Ninh Tran at Hiretual, who's a pretty colorful guy. His response was basically fake news, connect if you want more kind of thing. So at least from the vendor side, there's not a lot of fear. This is a lot of fear mongering by LinkedIn, but it is getting a lot of attention from the sourcing, recruiting world and we thought we'd mention it. So if you have any knowledge or experience of sort of banning on LinkedIn, particularly from a personal perspective, which apparently is happening, we'd love to know more about it. Chad: And I'm wondering ... yeah. I mean, if they're going to be kicking off customers, and really putting them in LinkedIn jail more so than anything else. Or again, is this just a Halloween scare tactic to get everybody all excited and it's like, "Oh my God, I can't buy any of these Chrome extensions or plugins," or anything like to just really hurt their business while they're trying to build competitive products. Joel: By the way, our buddy, Doug at ZAPinfo also chimed in on this saying that they had a "secret sauce," which tends to be Doug's thing, like he's got something that no one else does, but they have not seen any sort of retribution from LinkedIn at this point. Chad: Good for you, Doug. Good for you, Anoop You guys keep fighting the good fight. Joel: So, a little bit more on LinkedIn. We announced their ATS last week. We talked about it. You had an interesting question from ... I forget who it is, but actually quoted or asked, will LinkedIn be in the job distribution business? And we have some thoughts on that. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Question from Ian Partington over in northwest England, that's because they love us across the pond. Joel: They do. Chad: He's a CEO of Simply Jobs Boards. Yeah, he just wanted to know really if that's going to be an issue, or is it going to be one of these closed up ecosystems? Are they going to be able to really do job distribution? That's a great question. I think TalentHub will primarily be an SMB play for starters, so unless LinkedIn applies like a zip like kind of programmatic play, I don't think that they're going to be performing any old fashioned type of job distribution. Right? Joel: No? Chad: No. I think they're just gonna ... they can get away with that with an SMB kind of a structure because the expectations are so much lower. Now, if they were doing this on the enterprise side, that's an entirely different discussion, but I think they can build up from an SMB and start perspectively doing programmatic if that's where they want to go, but right out of the gate, I don't think that they need to. Joel: So you don't think they'll go to Monster and CareerBuilder and say, "Hey, for the low, low price of X, you can be an option for people who post jobs to cross post onto your site?" Chad: I'd love to see that because at the end of the day, if they can get those candidates ... they probably already have them, but maybe they don't. But if they can get those candidates sucked into LinkedIn, that's just, again, that's another Trojan horse kind of scenario, but maybe they just ... again, it depends on whether they want to lock up their ecosystem or they want to open it up. Joel: Well, history says they want to lock it up. I also think that Google For Jobs has maybe made it possible for them to say no play, right? Like, as long as our jobs are on LinkedIn, they're also on exclusively Bing at the moment. Right? And we're in bed with Google For Jobs, so screw job boards and job distribution. They're on LinkedIn, they're on Bing, and they're on Google. What else do you want? What else do you need? Chad: Yeah. Just real quick, I just got a text from an industry insider who is at Staffing World, and they said that they, yes, did indeed announce that all staffing out of organic results by January. Joel: Wow. Wow. Alrighty. Let's take a quick break and we'll talk about blinders and scary clowns. Chad: Donuts. Joel: How's that for a tease? JobAdX: As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX has been providing job board publishers, direct employers, agencies, RPOs, and staffing firms dynamic job bidding and real time ad delivery through our programmatic job advertising exchange. When we started, we described JobAdX as AdSense for jobs. Now, we offer much more with Switchboard and Live Alert, completing our full suite of dynamic programmatic advertising tools with the best of consumer ad tech. Switchboard offers our dynamic technologies to all partner job board feed management and Live Alert eliminates latency and expired job ads via email. For more information about any of our ad solutions, please reach out to us at joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@jobadx.com. JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for all your advertising needs. Chad: Okay, so I ... another text that's hilarious because this does make sense. Indeed announced this during Staffing World, right, so pretty much you're going into the lion's den saying, "Hey all you motherfuckers, you're not gonna be able to use us. Yeah." Why are they even there? Why are they even there? I mean that makes no goddamn sense, other than prime, right. Fuck that. Joel: Let's be honest. The amount of hubris that we see out of Indeed right now makes the hubris that was coming out of Monster and CareerBuilder at its height look like bush league kind of hubris. I mean, Indeed is really pushing the our shit don't stink button pretty heavily and man, the mighty have fallen, and as we're predicting, it will happen again. So yeah, enjoy it while it lasts, Indeed, because history says it might not. Chad: Hide and watch, kids. Joel: Let's go through some quick, I guess ... some money was ... some checks were written and at least one company is headed toward the dead pool. I'll start with ConveyIQ, formerly take the interview. Danielle Weinblatt, a friend of the show, listener, CEO, founder, Ty Abernathy was part founder of the original company is still involved in some degree, but anyway, she launched ConveyIQ, they went beyond sort of the video interviewing thing to the sort of end to end scheduling, interviewing. Chad: Messaging. Joel: Automation stuff, messaging. Yeah, they're trying to do all of it. That launched a little over a year ago I think and they've raised $5.5 million dollars to take the company to the next level, so congrats to them and we'll be watching. Chad: Another RPA play. I mean, process automation that is incredibly smart. How can I get more out of my recruiters? Take the stupid shit off their plate. Let our platform do it. Yeah, I think it's pretty awesome. Joel: You've got Timely, right? Chad: Yeah, so Memory- Joel: Did they get money or ... Chad: Memory ... Yeah. Joel: Okay. Chad: Memory, a Norwegian company actually secured $5 million for Timely and Timely, it's an AI based time tracking system for the service industry, which I thought was pretty fucking awesome, and they currently are used by 4000 paying customers across 160 countries. That's pretty big. But here's the thing that caught my eye. I started reading into it. Now here's a quote, "The tool automatically tracks the active, native, and web apps on the user's computer, location, and traveling mobile calls and calendar events, and suggests time slots descriptions. It also learns." It learns a bunch of shit and it's tapped into pretty much everything that you do. I have a big no effing way that I would use this thing. Joel: Interesting. Another funding that we didn't I think cover in the pre-show meeting was JobUFO, one of the more interesting URLs or brands out there. They raised two million Euros, which I think is three something million dollars. Anyway, so they raised money. They're out of Germany. They're a sort of video interviewing place, so they received some money, good for them. Chad: JobUFO, a video interviewing thing. Okay. Those don't match up. Joel: Maybe it's pronounced Job-uff-oh. Chad: Either way. Joel: By the way, it's funny when you ... so when you translate your site to other languages, but have video that is not translated, it's very interesting. If you go to the site from the US, it's in English, but the video's in German, so it could be a little confusing for consumers, I think. Something to think about in marketing is hey, if you're gonna translate your site, have a video version of that language that you're translating to. Chad: Yeah, especially if you're trying to penetrate more markets than just the German market might make sense. Joel: Yeah. As pleasant as the German language is, no one knows what the hell the girl's saying that's getting a job. Anyway, if that's it for the money, we've got a death pool, a dead pool recipient, which is a little bit close to home. Chad: It's bittersweet. Joel: Yeah, bittersweet. This was a firing squad company that faced the squad. They were shut down. So we knew the future before it happened and Hirevisor, who faced the squad and was shot down, is now announcing that they're going bye bye. Chad: Yeah. Back in June, they jumped on the firing squad and we had an open, honest discussion with Patrick and yeah, I mean, that's one of the things about ... what I love about being able to interact with the CEOs who really have backbone and they want to hear, really from both barrels, whether we believe they're gonna make it or they're not and we told ... we both hit Patrick with the guns and ... not saying that ... We didn't send him spiraling into this, guys, so don't blame this shit on us. Joel: Don't blame it on us. By the way, my man is smart. Worked at LinkedIn, he's got an Ivy League education, he's gonna be fine. I think one of the things that we said was, "Dude. There's great things in your future, but this is not it." So, we expect to see him again, maybe not in the employment industry, but we will see him again launch something that is successful. Chad: We talked about blinders? Joel: Blinders and scary clowns, yeah. You talk about blinders and I'll talk about scary clowns. Chad: Okay, so it's interesting because there's a company that is providing a new product called Wear Space, and what it is is it's really blinders. You know the blinders that you've seen on horses? Joel: Oh yeah. Chad: It's like those blinders but yet it has ... it also has like Bose or something like that, like ear phones, in them as well, so it's from a peripheral standpoint, you're totally cut off and you're focused on whatever you're looking at and you can put whatever kind of white noise or listen to whatever you want to listen to, but yeah, it looks hilarious. We're gonna ... I'm gonna post a video everywhere, LinkedIn, Twitter, what have you, because it is so freaking hilarious. Joel: It's incredibly dystopian. Like imagine a ... you know, an open work area with desks and people developing and whatever and all of them have blinders on their heads. I mean it's scary. Now I will say that I've been to plenty of companies with developers who all have headphones in and all just stare at the screen all day, so in many ways they're already blinded and deaf to what's going on around them anyway. The blinders I guess would just support and industrialize the whole don't look around and don't listen to anything, just focus on the screen and just code. Chad: Yeah, it's total 1984 shit. It really looks like it. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Scary clowns. It's October. This is fantastic. There's a donut shop in Missouri that you can hire scary-ass clowns to deliver donuts to the office. And they have a Facebook page with videos and the videos of this shit is hilarious. Like the clown will have a balloon and it will stand outside the window of the office, like if it's an executive in an office, the clown will sit outside with a balloon and scare. Chad: Oh that's awesome. Joel: It's just hilarious. Yeah, more companies should embrace this kind of insanity, because it's really funny and people like us talk about it. But anyway, if you live in the Missouri area, we'll put the name of the company on the site. Hire these guys, videotape it. Chad: Yes, please. Joel: Send it to us, and have fun with scary clowns delivering donuts. Chad: It'd be funny as hell if they actually sent the recipient, like they call them on their mobile phone, and they had the recording of the little kid saying, "You'll float too." Joel: Dude, it's good stuff. And you could branch out into all kinds of scary shit delivering stuff. Chad: God yeah, that's good shit. Joel: But anyway. Chad: Yeah. Okay. Joel: With that, man, Halloween's coming. We out. Chad: We out. Stella: Hi. This is Stella Cheesman. Thanks for listening to the Cheese and Chad podcast, or at least that's what I call it. Anyway, make sure you subscribe on iTunes, that silly Android phone thingy, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Be sure to give buckets of money to our sponsors, otherwise I may be forced to take that coal mining job I saw on Monster.com. We out. #LinkedIn #Indeed #ConveyIQ #iCims #Timely #JobUFO #HireVisor

If you can't guess from this week's title, LinkedIn blew up! - New ATS = Linkedin Talent Hub - Diversity is hot = LinkedIn Diversity Insights - Buying GLINT "employee engagement" = $400-$500 million - What the hell should ATS and job site vendors do? Not LinkedIn Topics... - Amazon's AI is a misogynist - Facebook Jobs poaches talent - AND no God, no! -- there's another Tinder for Jobs startup, Blonk. Enjoy, and write blank checks to sponsors Sovren, Canvas and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel Cheesman: LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. That's my best Brady Bunch impression. Sorry. Welcome to Chad and Cheese, HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad Sowash: And I'm Marcia. Joel Cheesman: On this week's episode, if you couldn't tell, LinkedIn did some shit. Amazon's robots are biased. Maybe they should stick to tweeting. And we rip apart another Tinder for jobs startup. God. Why? Get ready to swipe right on some solid podcasting goodness right after this word from Sovren. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now based on that technology, comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job, and just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll wanna take it to dinner. Chad Sowash: You know that's one of the guys from Sovren in the background actually playing the guitar. Joel Cheesman: Is it really? They have such a talented bunch there. Chad Sowash: They do. I know it's one of them. Joel Cheesman: Everyone's a bartender serving bourbon at trade shows and playing guitar. That's nice. Chad Sowash: I love that shit. That's good stuff. Joel Cheesman: How did we get so many goddamn shout-outs today? I'm gonna apologize in advance. Chad Sowash: People love us and we love people. Joel Cheesman: iCIMS. We're going to Jersey next week. Chad Sowash: Woo, Jersey! Joel Cheesman: I'll start off with that. iCIMS, looking forward to it. You better feed us some good stuff, and we need lubrication throughout the conference. Just a heads up. Chad Sowash: When he says "lubrication," he means alcohol guys. Just for all you idiots out there. Just in case. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, what else would I mean? Jesus. Chad Sowash: Anyway, this month is Disability Hiring Awareness month, and the Chad and Cheese take this shit serious. So don't miss this week's podcast we dropped with Julie. It's an educational interview, "Hiring People With Disabilities is Hot," and she's a total bad ass. Joel Cheesman: We are the nepotism podcast of recruiting. Chad Sowash: Goddamn straight. Joel Cheesman: Starring Julie Sowash! Chad Sowash: Proof though, Steven Rothberg tweeted- Joel Cheesman: Of course. Chad Sowash: "Just finished listening. I learned way more about the recruitment of disabilities in 35 minutes than he has in 53 years. Bravo Julie Sowash. It was an unvarnished conversation about hiring people with disabilities, so listen." Joel Cheesman: Yes. If you haven't listened, he's referencing a faux pas that I made during the interview process, which I made many, but that was the first one. So, thanks Steven, for pointing that one out. Chad Sowash: Yeah, imagine that from an old white male. Carry on. Joel Cheesman: HIREConf coming up as well in November, put on by HiringSolved, kids over there, Jeremy Roberts and team. We're gonna be doing something, I guess a show or a song and dance, or something. So, if you're going to that ... If you're gonna be in New York, make sure you check us out at hireconf.com. Chad Sowash: This week, we actually got into Spotify. Spotify has a beta now for podcasts, but it's still kind of janky 'cause they're in beta- Joel Cheesman: I'm kinda mad about being on Spotify because now, I might have to be nice to millennials 'cause they're all on Spotify, so- Chad Sowash: Dude. Joel Cheesman: If you've enjoyed the ripping of millennials, I might have to tune that down a little bit with the Spotify edition. Chad Sowash: Dude, they love it! Some of our biggest fans are millennials. I mean, when we were in New Orleans, who brought us beer? Our favorite millennial, Kyle. Dude, they love it. Joel Cheesman: True. True. I have some millennial degree on my wall about something or other. That's nice. Shout out to Chris Gamble, ya boy, former Indeed executive employee. Mentioned that I did a post on "indeededjobs.com" a while back, that was a total ripoff of Indeed, saying that it was a matter of time before Indeed took the site down. Shockingly, the site is gone. Chris Gamble gave me the heads up. So shout out to you, Chris, for mindlessly going to "indeededjobs" every day and seeing if it was down or not. I really appreciate that. Chad Sowash: Yeah, really appreciate you taking your time there, bud. Louise Triance, once again, and this is for her actually saying that she listens to Chad and Cheese and it's "bloody good." So, if you're over in the UK- Joel Cheesman: Go on, do the accent. Do the accent. Chad Sowash: I can't do the accent. I'm not gonna ... Joel Cheesman: Bloody good! Chad Sowash: That's horrible. Horrible. Joel Cheesman: You're getting very popular there, across the pond. Shout out to Talroo. We love our sponsors and we give them a lot of love, but Talroo turned that love around last week, and told people to listen to the show. So we greatly appreciate that, Talroo. Chad Sowash: Well, I mean, they were actually just focusing on our banner week. We had over 4,000 listens in one week. It was our best week ever. Really happy to put that out there. And they were happy, being a sponsor, obviously, to push it out as well. Joel Cheesman: Continue to be awe inspired and, getting all English on you, gobsmacked, about all the listeners that we're getting. We really appreciate that. Shout out to Uber and Lyft, who are giving free rides to voters here in the states. Coming back to America. A very important election is going on next month, and Uber and Lyft are gonna help us out with getting people to the polls. So shout out to them. Chad Sowash: Damn straight. If you haven't listened to Death Match this week, we've got two of them out there. We've already had AllyO. Now we've got Talkpush, and Uncommon. Push it real good. Coming out this week, the grand champion Canvas will be out next week. So you gotta listen. Great pitches, and they do a lot of Q and A with us. And this is when they were onstage, live in New Orleans at TAtech. Joel Cheesman: Feedback's been great on the Death Match stuff, so we're gonna do more of that in the future, for sure. My last shout out goes to, another English shout out, John Lennon, assassinated in 80, 1980, would have been 78 this week. And God only know what kind of impact he would have made on the world, but we'll never know, sadly enough. But happy birthday, John. We continue, or at least I do, continue to love your music, and listen regularly. Chad Sowash: I remember when that happened, and they were playing John Lennon music on the radio constantly. And I just remember the song, "Wheels." So that's definitely a memory from our childhood, and amazing music in avant garde in that industry. Joel Cheesman: Shockingly that album was sort of a come back album for him after a weird period, I guess, in his life. And, only knows what could've been. I think he would've been incredibly political. I think he would've continued to make music. I think he would've impacted more generations and more folks to make music. But, sadly enough, we'll never know. You're excited about the Queen movie that's coming out. Hopefully that's good. Chad Sowash: Goddamn straight. Bohemian Rhapsody. I mean, who doesn't love Freddie Mercury and Queen music? I mean, it is literally the soul of rock and roll. It is amazing, so I can't wait to see that. Joel Cheesman: Any band that puts Beelzebub in a song is good stuff. Chad Sowash: Can we do this podcast? Joel Cheesman: We can. You had Indeed Job Spotter. Are we gonna roll over them? Chad Sowash: Yeah. So I thought it was funny. Somebody actually forwarded an Instagram ad of Indeed Job Spotter, and I was like, "Is that thing still fucking alive?" It must be. So shout out to Indeed. I can't imagine the amount of content that you're getting from Job Spotter, but somebody inside of Indeed, if you would, reach out to us. Let us know how much content you guys are getting from that. Or, maybe it's just an ad that keeps running in the background that somebody forgot about. Joel Cheesman: No, I think we've talked about this and I did a story about a year ago. I think if it's working, part of it's genius, because they're getting leads to small businesses that are hiring people. And they're getting the masses to do the work for them. So if they're doing it, it's genius. If no one's taking photos of "Help Wanted" signs in the window, it's kind of a big dud. But- Chad Sowash: Well, I'd like to know if it's working. If it is- Joel Cheesman: Alright, if you're the product manager of Indeed's Job Spotter, we wanna hear from you, get you on this show. Chad Sowash: Well, yeah and this will be the only time that you'd probably get any time on a podcast, ever. The project manager of Job Spotter. Joel Cheesman: It could happen. It could happen. Alright, well, let's go to the show. LinkedIn is holding their annual conference out in Anaheim, I believe. I'm a little pissed 'cause I didn't get invited, but whatever. I did watch the live stream. I got all the news, so we have a few things there. We're gonna talk about the ATS first. We have a soundbite from the conference that we're gonna play, and then we'll talk about it. Cool? Chad Sowash: Play it. Joel Cheesman: We don't normally do soundbites, so this is sort of a new thing. Let's give it- Chad Sowash: Unless it's El Chapo. We love the El Chapo soundbite. Joel Cheesman: The El Chapo or really bad ... anyway. Alright, here we go. Talent Connect: Every year, you come to TalentConnect and you ask, "Is this the year LinkedIn's gonna announce they're building an ATS?" This is the year! But it wasn't enough for us just to build an ATS. We asked ourselves if we could reinvent what it means to be an ATS in the era of tele-intelligence. We challenge ourselves to imagine what an ATS could do when built on LinkedIn's data. Chad Sowash: That's enough. Oh my god. Talent Connect: And so, over the last year, we've partnered with 20 customers who are helping us to design the product, that brings source, manage, and hire together in one place. And it's called "Talent Hub." Chad Sowash: Trojan horse. Talent Hub. Joel Cheesman: They couldn't just call it ATS. They had to have a special LinkedIn-y name. Chad Sowash: Yeah, of course. Joel Cheesman: So we've been talking about this, speculating about LinkedIn doing this. I think, Hire by Google made them have to do it, even if they weren't thinking about doing it. Initial thoughts on this. 'Cause it's big news. I think we can go a lot of different directions with it, but what're your initial thoughts? Chad Sowash: So the initial thought is, why are they creating a applicant tracking system, when Microsoft already has one? Joel Cheesman: Which no one uses. Chad Sowash: But they're not gonna get rid of Dynamic 365, the talent piece, so what does this actually morph into? What does it look like? Personally, I thought, "What you're going to see, is what you saw some of the other Dynamics pieces, is taking the LinkedIn info, data, and just sucking it up into Microsoft Dynamics. But that's not what this is at all. So, how does that change? How does that morph? I mean, I don't know. Joel Cheesman: I think Microsoft's, aside from being integrated with Microsoft stuff, is sort of more like what you think of an ATS today. Whereas, I mean, LinkedIn is leveraging their data in terms of profiles because they can, and no one else can. Chad Sowash: Microsoft can. Joel Cheesman: With LinkedIn data? Chad Sowash: Yeah! What do you mean, with LinkedIn ... They fucking own LinkedIn. Joel Cheesman: Well, that's what it will be. And you'll eventually get GitHub profiles synced into here somehow, and maybe Glint data. We'll talk about that in a second. But, I mean, all these things will eventually come together. I think that LinkedIn will be the hub, if you will, of this whole thing. I mean, the experience will be the same, whether you log in with LinkedIn or use your Microsoft account. It'll be the same data. It'll be the same experience. I mean, but it's simply their advantage that no one else has. And we talk about Google sourcing your current ATS database, or sourcing the internet, which we think they'll eventually do. But only one really has half a billion professional profiles that it can do this and actually make as a big a wave as they can. The product head, that gave the speech, she described it as, "Imagine ATS with, sort of, preloaded, interested candidates," right? And that's essentially what it is. Now, you could argue that your current database is the same thing. You just have to energize them, and you have to build technology that says, "This person's interested," whereas LinkedIn, they actually say, "Hey, I'm open to new opportunities. The resume that's in your ATS is three years old." You have no idea whether they're interested or not. Chad Sowash: They're not truly interested until they apply for the job. You can say, "Hey, these guys have been reading about their interest level as higher," but they're not truly interested until they apply. Joel Cheesman: Well, there's literally a switch on LinkedIn that says, "Am I open to new opportunities or not? If you are open to new opportunities, you're gonna show up in the search results, or the whatever, the automated search that you get when you post a job on LinkedIn." Chad Sowash: Legally, it doesn't matter what that little, fucking switch says. Legally, you have to apply to actually be seen as interested. So yeah, I don't think I'd change that on my profile. When's the last time you changed that on your profile? When's the last time you changed that on your profile? Joel Cheesman: Would a recruiter rather contact ... Well, I haven't looked for a job in a while. If I was looking for a job, I'd change it. Chad Sowash: I doubt people even think about that. Joel Cheesman: I think, well then, they deserve to be unemployed. Chad Sowash: I think that piece, in itself, doesn't really fucking matter. Being able to identify qualified candidates is the big key, number one. And what you're talking about is just fluff and bullshit, okay? So the big piece is actually being able to qualify individuals, you find those qualified individuals, and then you get real interest, which is applying for the job. That's real interest. All that other stuff's just bullshit and fluff. So, first off, apparently Microsoft Dynamics sucks. If Microsoft dynamics talent was good enough, this wouldn't have happened. I thought it was interesting because on a story that a recruiter wrote, I think it was on SourceCon, said, "I can't recall a time when any sourcer or recruiter has ever uploaded a requisition into their ATS and has had immediate access to full pipeline of qualified candidates." Well, that's because you're obviously not doing enough research. There are plenty of platforms that are powered by HiringSolved, now the Uncommons of the world who are popping these things out, the Intellos. This already is working, but it's not happening in one system, it's happening from vendor to vendor. So, iCIMS doesn't do it, but it can with some of these other vendors that are actually included. So here's the big question. Do we now see the iCIMS, the Taleos, the applicant tracking systems of the world start looking to acquire this type of technology, because it's already out there? Joel Cheesman: I think yes, but I want to go ... I want to go back to just agree to disagree on your whole premise that LinkedIn's shit is fluff. I think there's real ... I think people do update their LinkedIn when they're looking for a job. I do think that as a recruiter, I would rather call 100 people that have said I'm open to new opportunities as opposed to calling 100 people where I don't even know, I don't really know. I've got to convince them, I've got to play phone tag, etc. So we can just agree to disagree on that component. Chad Sowash: Like I said, if they apply, they show intent. Joel Cheesman: Fine. We can disagree. We've got a lot of show to cover. We can visit this later. To your other question of consolidation. Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheesman: absolutely. Yes. I mean, you know, world of a three pronged monster of Google, Microsoft, LinkedIn, and Facebook becoming the end to end platforms for companies to hire is happening, and it's going ... it's not gonna happen overnight, but it's gonna happen, and these companies are gonna choose are we a LinkedIn house, are we a Google house, etc., and the stand alone ATS, particularly the little guys are not going to last. Chad Sowash: No. Joel Cheesman: So the little ones are gonna get gobbled up by the big ones and the big ones will eventually get gobbled up or go away from the even bigger ones, but I think the future of the ATS is, whew, man, if I'm not, you know ... if you're not awake at night thinking about this as an ATS owner, and I love that we're going to iCIMS next week because I'm going to totally get into this, but if you're ... to me, you're just ... you're walking blind without a cane because the future is ... whew ... it's clear as mud to me that this is the future of the ATS business. Chad Sowash: Easily, and let's make it very simple. A recruiter posts a requisition. That requisition automatically gets matched against the applicant tracking system database, number one. That's priority one for the candidates that you've already paid for. Number two, then it goes into the paid database. In this case Linkedin, right? That's number two. Then number three, if you don't reach the threshold of qualified candidates who have applied for the job, then you start the programmatic outreach, right? This is, it's actually happening today, but this is ... this is really just a big splash in the water to tell all these applicant tracking systems "I know you want to have a "hub" and not really say, you know, "We're not gonna pick a winner." You better fucking pick a winner. Pull together a platform that can do all of those things so that it makes it that much faster to surface qualified candidates and get them into your seats. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. If Hired by Google was Nagasaki, LinkedIn was Hiroshima. Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. Joel Cheesman: Not to use a bad World War Two reference, but another reference would be these are like the two asteroids, if there were two that, you know, eventually killed the dinosaurs. Like, you need to really be thinking about your business and you talk about a lot like, the resources that they have you just can't match. Period. Chad Sowash: No. Well, okay, so say that you're a CareerBuilder or a Monster. What do you do from here? You try to do the same thing. You have databases that are fucking huge. So what do you do? You overlay technology on top of it that if somebody posts or feeds jobs into your system, they automatically take that data and they match it against your database, and then maybe you pay per qualified applicant, who the fuck knows? But guess what guys? This whole pay per click thing, a click isn't qualified. An application is not qualified. You guys are already years behind. You better catch up. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, I mean, if I'm Monster and CareerBuilder, we talked about this last week, I think. I think LinkedIn has, and you could argue, a fairly vibrant, a community of people who use the site. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: Even if you don't think people go to LinkedIn, you at least have to agree that it's more active than the resume database in Monster. Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. Easy. Joel Cheesman: So that alone makes the data fresher, better. I also think there was ... there was a really sort of small comment that they made in the LinkedIn announcement that you had to sort of, if you caught it or not, but one of the algorithmic elements of people ranking well or people coming up in the searches for LinkedIn users for recruiters was not gender, was whether or not the person followed the company on LinkedIn. So if job seekers catch sort of knowledge of that or know that, then you're going to see a lot of people start following companies on LinkedIn just to show that, "Hey, I'm interested in the company," which is going to help with branding, which I think kind of ties into this whole Glint acquisition. Anyway, there's just ... there's an activity level on LinkedIn that you just don't get with any job board, and I just think that's impossible to match. Chad Sowash: Yeah. I don't think it's impossible, but I think it's hard Joel Cheesman: For sure. For sure. Well, LinkedIn did a few other things. Diversity was one of them, which is your hot button issue. What were your thoughts on that? Chad Sowash: Yeah, it's interesting. To be able to take a look at the diversity insights of your organization, the talent pool, and then start to compare that against competitors. I mean really your industry across the industry, so being able to take a look at that and then a gender weighting system. And this is ... I mean this is where we get into some really interesting conversations because Facebook and all the shit that facebook is taking for being able to target ads to only young females, let's say, right? And then the old white male gets pissed off and says, "Oh, that's it, we're going to court." This is the same kind of shit, that's not different. Now I believe that companies to be able to diversify their talent pools should be able to do this, although you have to remember, you'd better be able to defend why you're doing this. Right? So I think it's good. There's no question. The insights provide more intel that you definitely need, especially against the industry, but at the end of the day, I think these are great mechanisms for companies to be able to diversify their platforms, or their workforce. The thing is, they better be ready for old white guys who are pissed off and have a lot of money to take them to court. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. The whole day was sort of an Oreo cookie of announcements for LinkedIn, right? Like they had ... they had the cookie of the diversity. You had like the creamy white center of the ATS, and then you had LinkedIn Learning announced, which is sort of an internal mentor solution, but as we all know, the goodness is right there in the center of the milky white creamy substance. So good stuff from LinkedIn. Glint acquisition happened at the beginning of the week. Glint is a solution for engaging employee happiness, sentiment, etc. This is LinkedIn's largest acquisition ever. Lynda was their biggest, which we don't hear a lot about their whole educational stuff very much. They paid like 1.4 billion I think for, for Lynda. TechCrunch I believe, or Bloomberg reported that they paid between like 400 to 500 million for Glint. It's their first and biggest. So definitely their biggest acquisition since Microsoft has come to town. Thoughts personally I'm struggling with ... I guess it's just they want to be an end to end, they don't just want to be a recruiting tool. They want to be with you forever in your recruiting employment process, and certainly engagement and happiness play into that. They also, you know ... we talked about insights as well, which they're very serious about and it's a very cool product, but employment branding is part of that insight solution that they have, so I gotta think that eventually insights will also encompass how are your current employees from a morale standpoint? Chad Sowash: Yeah. It's all about retention. I mean it's what it is, about retention. It's about being able to gauge whether your people are happy or not. So if you ever go to an airport and you see the happy or sad face buttons that you can tap. Joel Cheesman: I love that. Chad Sowash: To tell whether you're having ... whether your experience in that airport was good or it was bad or it was shitty. You find them everywhere. But it's interesting because they have 200 employees and I'm like, "Why the ... what do they do with 200 employees? What are they doing over there?" I mean there must be some things behind the scenes that I'm just not getting, because that's a hell of a lot of resources to put in to happy or sad faces. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. There may be something there we don't see or a vision for the future. The happy and sad faces that you push in the bathroom scare me a little bit. I'm worried about hepatitis, whatever, being on the frowny face if I were to punch it. So I tend to stay away from it. Chad Sowash: That's why you always have a towel on your way out to be able to do one of two things. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, I get the little nest thing from the toilet that you can ... Anyway, yeah, I think it's a longterm play. Four or five hundred million is quite a bit to pay for what they've got. Hopefully there's something really going into the head there. But LinkedIn continues to move onward in the march of supremacy with the big three, and this week was an evidence of that. Chad Sowash: And last but not least, I mean they paid four to five hundred million, 400 to 500 million for this platform. So all those other startups that are out there right now start to see their valuation going higher because they're more than a happy or sad face. Right. You know, and I mean this is what it does. Joel Cheesman: Well, millennials like to be loved, you know. Retention is hot so the time is right for this stuff. Chad Sowash: I like to be loved. Joel Cheesman: Just like the time is right for JobAdX Chad Sowash: And a new ad. Announcer: As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX has been providing job board publishers, direct employers, agencies, RPOs and staffing firms, dynamic job bidding and real time ad delivery through our programmatic job advertising exchange. When we started, we described JobAdX as AdSense for jobs. Now, we offer much more with switchboard and live alert, completing our full suite of dynamic programmatic advertising tools, but the best of consumer ad tech. Switchboard offers our dynamic technologies to all partner job board feed management and live alert eliminates latency and expired job ads via email. For more information about any of our ad solutions, please reach out to us at joinus@jobadx.com. That's joinus@jobadx.com. JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for all your advertising needs. Chad Sowash: Oh, it was quicker. More to the point. Joel Cheesman: That was efficient. Chad Sowash: I like that. I do like that. Joel Cheesman: But if you're not ... if you're not leveraging programmatic as a vendor or an employer, you've got to go check out JobAdX. They're great. Chad Sowash: Why wouldn't you? That's the big question. So why would Amazon shut down their AI? I mean why would they do that? Joel Cheesman: Chicks, man, sorry. So Amazon is regularly known as an innovator in recruiting, and they're also known for their ability to create efficiencies, cut fat, etc., and they were leveraging a recruiting artificial intelligence solution that I think was homemade actually. Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheesman: And over time, as I know the story, it started leaning toward men, particularly on the engineering side and it became biased against women, and the company to their credit, shut it down. Chad Sowash: So it, it says the algorithm began to filter out applications that included words such as women's and also down ranked graduates from all female colleges. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: The company's experimental hiring tool used artificial technology, so and so. See, this is the problem. We try to make things that are easy way too fucking complex. There's no reason. Doesn't matter what college an individual came from. If your qualification says bachelor's degree or master's degree or it says associates, it doesn't matter, the individual should be qualified because of that, and when we start getting into these algorithm matching types of things, once we get over complicated, this stupid shit starts to happen. So we need to really back up and say, "What are we here to do? We're here to hire qualified individuals, not negatively impact our talent pool by pretty much chucking qualified women out the door." Makes no fucking sense. Joel Cheesman: So my question, it wasn't really clear from some of the news that I read, but as I understand it, the algorithm was sort of driven by the results, right? So, so who was actually hired and the hire became sort of weighted against the algorithm. So essentially, as I understand it, if the human beings were only hiring people that were, you know, algorithmically not from women's college or not in women's groups, then the machine is simply learning from the humans and the humans are kind of the dickheads in this scenario, and the machine is just sort of learning from that. From my perspective, the machine was doing what it was supposed to do, it was just learning from humans which is where the error happened. Chad Sowash: Yes. It's learning bad behavior. So we've got to know where to shut machine learning off, and if it's bad behavior. So, again, we're still ... we still have to focus on what is it there for in the first place? To deliver qualified candidates, that's it. That's it. Not to be able to go through and see what kind of donuts Jeffrey likes on a Wednesday so that we can get the right person who will fill that job, who actually drives past a donut shop on the way to fucking work. Joel Cheesman: Well, frankly, anyone who only likes donuts on Wednesday should never be hired, because donuts are delicious every day. Chad Sowash: Here's the thing, we're looking for AI to solve all of our ills and that shit's just not going to happen. What a company like Amazon should do is they should take their, use the bazillions of dollars they have to solve the actual problem and build a training program to pipeline candidates into those positions. If they're not getting enough females and/or diverse types of candidates, then they can fix it. They shouldn't be looking at the US government or any other government to be able to fix that fucking problem for them. It's their talent that's going to build their product and making them money, so they should figure it out, not think that an algorithm's going to do it. Joel Cheesman: ... Never be hired because donuts are delicious every day. Joel Cheesman: Clearly, we have a long way to go with AI and recruiting because Amazon is at the forefront of this. This stuff is going to get figured out. It'll take a while, but it will get figured out and AI will be, as we believe, a major component to all hiring and sourcing. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Again, we're thinking way too complex when this is a simple equation. Joel Cheesman: It's basically saying don't use words like "women" or certain colleges as a filter for not letting someone through. Chad Sowash: Your primary focus should be the qualifications on that job, and does this individual, no matter religion, ethnicity, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the qualifications. And are you looking to relocate or not? So it's geographic. Once you get past that and you start looking, and algorithm's start looking at those types of terms, then you've already fucked up. Joel Cheesman: I also think it's interesting to think that we believe AI is going to solve all our problems, like you said, and yet we have so long to go from that. Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheesman: So a company that hasn't had any issues with women, although they were in the news recently with diversity for throwing out an African American man for just hanging out, waiting for his buddy. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: Anyway, they're in the news, childcare, applaud this story. Starbucks will begin to offer subsidized backup childcare for all of its US employees, sorry rest of the world, including part-time workers. The program will give Starbucks workers 10 days of backup care. The story said just four percent of employers offer similar programs. The move comes as the labor market in the US grows increasingly competitive with employers boosting their benefits to attract and retain workers. Chad Sowash: Just smart business. And the key piece here was including part-time workers. They understand that a good amount of their workforce is part-time, so they have to include everybody. And one of the things that I keep seeing from companies that are out there who are bitching and complaining about not being able to find the right types of talent is they're not willing to change the way that they're doing things. They're not willing to change. And again, this is an expense. There is no question of benefit, but it also keeps individuals, retains individuals into those positions so you're not having to spend a shit ton of money to try to replace them. So I mean, that's the thing. Think outside of the box. If you're only hiring full-time employees and you can't find enough full-time employees, guess what? Start thinking different. Start looking for gig workers. Start looking for part-timers, start looking for all these different ways to try to get the job done. Joel Cheesman: What shocked me was that only four percent of employers offer a similar sort of benefit. And so to me the question is, does this go towards gig economy? Come in and work, then you're done, you get no benefits, versus a few select employers where they say, "We honor your abilities. If you come in and work full-time for us, we can count on you, we're going to give you benefits like this," and that's going to retain some of the best workers. To me, it'll be interesting in the future how that sort of dichotomy works out. And I think ultimately, employers like the big brands, the Starbucks, the Walmarts, the Targets, those guys, Home Depots, will probably offer stuff like this, but the small mom and pop restaurant, laundromat, et cetera, they won't be able to and they're going to embrace the gig economy. Chad Sowash: And again, you're right. It's going to be different from mom and pop than it is for the Starbucks of the world. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, it's a serious issue, employment. I was at a restaurant the other day. Every waiter was wearing an I Love My Job t-shirt. Like when did that ever happen? Holy shit. All the waiters are recruiting people. Chad Sowash: Yeah, yeah, yeah. "Hey, here. Wear this today." Joel Cheesman: Yeah, it's the, was it swag? What was Office Space? What did the Friday's restaurant workers wear? Chad Sowash: It wasn't bling. What was it? Oh shit. Joel Cheesman: It will come to us maybe. But yeah, yeah. Waiters are going to become recruiting billboards in the future. Benefits. My job's awesome. I tweet about how great it is. All right dude, Canvas. Let's talk about that. Second week in a row we have not gotten an ad from our new sponsor, so you and I are just going to freestyle some stuff about Canvas. Great company based here in Indianapolis nearby both of us. Aman Brar founder, Cha Cha, Cha Cha DNA, texting is in it, great company. Everyone's getting on messaging. What other buzzwords can I throw out there? Chad Sowash: Yeah, I think they love us talking about them so much. Joel Cheesman: They do. I think they're not going to give us an ad because they just want us to freestyle every week. Chad Sowash: Yeah, because they get more mileage out of it. So talk about process automation. So on average, Canvas recruiters complete screens in 4.4 minutes. So actually, candidate screens, they disqualify in 52 seconds, which is saving like 922 hours per year. So what they're saying is if you automate the grunt work and focus on the actual connections themselves, let the chat bots do some of these pieces and then what you can do is you can focus on the actual connection with the candidate. You can be a brand ambassador. and a platform like this, as we talk about chat bots and we talk about texting platforms and all the messaging, if you can find areas to automate and allow your humans to actually be human to other humans and be a brand ambassador, this is the exact type of platform you need to look into at gocanvas.io. Joel Cheesman: What I got is they want our Death Match competition at TATech. I don't know what else better to say. They beat back some stiff competition, quality organization. And by the way, you want to recruit millennials? How about bitmoji recruiting with canvas? Put bitmojis in your messaging, attract millennials. What could be better? Gocanvas.io. Okay, getting back to the news. Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheesman: Facebook is in the news. TechCrunch reported that they're poaching folks from a site called Refdash. Wow. Speaking of bad names, Refdash is your typical sort of employment site connecting job seekers with employers, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, from from my standpoint, it sounds like the company's in the crapper. They're winding stuff down and Facebook is there, conveniently, to pick up some of the talent. That's not so much the news to me as the fact that Facebook continues to be serious about its sort of jobs. Offering and poaching these folks to work on the job solution tells me that they continue to be serious and will continue to be a player there up there with everybody else that we talked about. Chad Sowash: Yeah, so I think this was TechCrunch. "Facebook just snatched some talent to fuel its invasion of LinkedIn's turf." Personally, I think it's just TechCrunch manufacturing shit to talk about. I don't see anything here. I think it's just the normal kind of sway of the day and where people are coming from. Yeah, it might be because Refdash isn't doing great and they're all ejecting to go to Facebook. It could be that Facebook is actually doing something worth a shit and hopefully they'll be able to share it with us here sometime soon because I'm sure they are. But from my standpoint, yeah, I think it's just TechCrunch looking for clicks. Joel Cheesman: Are you saying TechCrunch and bloggers in general are embracing hyperbole to get clicks and readers? Chad Sowash: I would say yes. Joel Cheesman: Outrageous. Outrageous. Chad Sowash: Because we don't do that. Joel Cheesman: Outrageous. And what else is outrageous this week? Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheesman: Oh God. Why? A new Tinder for jobs startup is out there. This one from your favorite country, France, home of the nonstop cavalcade of great startups in the job space, has launched an app called Blonk, B-L-O-N-K. Okay. So they've got nothing going for them at the moment. Tinder for jobs is crap. France is still France and Blonk is a horrible name unless you play football. Chad Sowash: Yeah. So I don't know if Blonk means something in French or not. Joel Cheesman: It's French for F America. That's what it is. Chad Sowash: It's French for this is a stupid fucking idea. So one of the co-founders actually said, this is hilarious, "We use AI to connect talent and hiring managers directly in a few swipes, just like Tinder. Personal chemistry is involved." This is the stupidest shit. Who comes up with this? And the big question is, who is actually providing funds for this shit? Joel Cheesman: Let me clarify this. So when you date, okay, you're single. You will put up with multiple folks because the chance to have sex is on the table. Employment is not that. Chad Sowash: No. Joel Cheesman: Remember like when Jobber first came out and you would swipe through jobs that were totally irrelevant aside from the fact that they were nearby. Right? Totally irrelevant, total waste of time. Now, I will swipe right and left and whatever if it's women who are single that want to go out on dates. Chad Sowash: You would. You wouldn't anymore. Joel Cheesman: I'm speaking in generalities. The whole argument of dating should be like finding a job is totally ridiculous, and I wish these companies would stop doing this, but they will continue because people will give money to them and around we go. Chad Sowash: And these companies obviously do no research whatsoever. They didn't see all the dead companies who said that they were going to be the Eharmony of jobs. Joel Cheesman: Right. Chad Sowash: This is the same shit, guys. This isn't different. I don't care if you swipe or you fill out a 20 minute frickin survey. It's the same stuff. The motivations are different. And "chemistry", it's not the same chemistry. That's for God damn sure. Joel Cheesman: For God damn sure. I'm so tired of tinder for jobs sites. And by the way, I shared this on LinkedIn. It's gotten like 7,000 views and interactions and shit. So clearly other people see this and why these companies don't. Do a little research. Right? Do a little intel on the market before you launch this stuff. Chad Sowash: Yeah, Vincent. Joel Cheesman: It's pronounced Vincent, by the way. And I know that because my wife is French Canadian and she has a brother named Vincent. Chad Sowash: Let's go over something real quick. I'm an American, so it's Vincent and it's a stupid fucking idea, Vincent. That being said, the outro today is going to be done by my daughter, who turns 17 today. Joel Cheesman: Woohoo. Chad Sowash: Ema. Joel Cheesman: Yes. Are you taking her to like Benihana and Cold Stone for her birthday? Chad Sowash: So I already have birthday donuts waiting after she finally wakes up, which will probably, we're on fall break so she'll probably get up like around two for God's sake. Then it's going to be a birthday weekend. That's what it's all about. Joel Cheesman: Nice. All this food talk, man, I'm going to go get lunch. I'm out and we out. Chad Sowash: We out. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy, Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit chadcheese.com.

It's Disability Employment Awareness month which means it's time for The Chad & Cheese to pull out their secret weapon who knows her shit about hiring people with disabilities. Julie Sowash, Senior Consultant with Disability Solutions take the guys to school! Yes, that Sowash... Julie and the team at Disability Solutions have helped nearly 1,200 people with disabilities find jobs in great companies like Pepsi and Synchrony Financial. She breaks through the fluffy bullshit and helps us focus on the real deal - getting hiring outcomes. #ActionNotWords Plus, Julie tells us what really pisses her off when talking to D&I leaders who still don't get it... All in today's interview sponsored by Uncommon.co. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is changing minds and changing lives through disability inclusion. Chad: This, the Chad and Cheese podcast, brought to in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit TATech.org Chad: Dude, I just got off the phone with Teg. Joel: Teg, Teg, oh yeah, over at Uncommon. Chad: Dude, do you know another Teg? Anyway, Uncommon just opened up their resume database of 100 million candidates to recruiters for free. Joel: Whoa, wait, what? Chad: Yeah, Uncommon's releasing their new database matching tech and beta before the end of the year, and they wanna show it off to recruiters for free. Joel: All right, let me get this straight. Recruiters can sign up for Uncommon's beta, post their jobs into the system, the system then matches only qualified candidates from Uncommon's database of 100 million candidates, and this is all for free? Chad: I know, dude. For two weeks, for free, but only during the month of October. Joel: Dude, Uncommon has some of the best matching tech in the industry. That'll be like cheating for recruiters. Chad: I know. Uncommon uses the qualifications in the job description to automatically source, screen, and deliver candidates that meet all requirements. It's pretty freaking dope. Joel: Did you just say dope? Chad: Here's how you register, go to Uncommon.co. Click on the Join Beta button. And for all you Chad and Cheese listeners, if you use the promo code chadcheese, you will get extended by a full week, that's three weeks in the Uncommon beta for three weeks, free. Joel: I'm sorry, did you really say dope? Chad: Dude, shut up. Tell your recruiter buddies, Uncommon.co, join beta, chadcheese, three weeks, it's dope. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: As if dealing with one Sowash wasn't enough, I've got two Sowashes in this podcast. Joel: Welcome everybody to an Uncommon exclusive for the month of October. Our special guest today is Julie Sowash. Yes, that kind of Sowash. Julie, welcome to the show. Julie: Thank you. Happy to be here, especially on an Uncommon exclusive. Chad: So happy. Joel: So what bet did Chad lose to get you on the show? Julie: Really? He asked me, it is an honor to have me on the show, c'mon Cheesman. Joel: Anyone who calls me Cheesman is good in my book. Joel: Julie, for those who don't know you and love you like we do, give us the elevator pitch and why the hell are you on the show. Julie: All right, well not just because I'm Chad's wife, as some may say, but I work for a non-for-profit consulting company called Disability Solutions. And we focus on helping companies build enterprise-wide hiring systems for people with disabilities and veterans with disabilities. So we work with big companies. Julie: We've helped over the past four and a half years, companies hire close to about 1,200 people with disabilities. So it's National Disability Employment Awareness month. And I appreciate you guys letting me spread the good word. Chad: And she's a badass. I mean that's just, you know, not that I'm bias. But yeah, no, she's total badass. Joel: Not bias at all. Chad: No. Joel: Of course. Joel: I did not know that it was National Awareness month, so that's news to me. And I am much less verse in this disability compliance stuff as your husband, but I've worked really hard to get a list of questions for you, in addition to Chad's thoughtful inquiries. Joel: I'm gonna start it off if that's okay. Chad: Yup, knock it out. Joel: What are companies biggest failure when it comes to hiring and recruiting disabled persons? Julie: Well first, I say disabled persons, they- Chad: Wow. Joel: Ouch, right out the gate. Julie: So just one point of education, I guess, to start off is that you don't put the disability first, you put the person first. And it's harder to say and a little bit of a pain-in-the-ass, I know. But we all feel better when you say people with disabilities or individuals with disabilities, other than focusing on what's "broken with us." Joel: Fair enough. Now we know the podcaster's biggest failure. What are companies biggest failures? Julie: So I think that they just have so much fear and stigma that still exists around hiring this population, really we're only thought of in two different ways. There's the compliance, right, so we do it because we have to or we say we're going to do it because we have to and the government is holding us accountable for that. Or they go the complete opposite direction, which is the charity mentality. That every person with a disability is broken, and they're unable to work in a successful position in your career, so we have to create charitable programs or create jobs for them to be able to have a human experience like the rest of us. Chad: Okay. So here's the thing, because we talk about this all the time. It's about all the warm and fuzzy bullshit that's out there. I mean I see it on the veteran's side all the time, where it's like, "Oh, we love veterans. Oh, we're veteran friendly." So instead of going down that road, 'cause I think it's total bullshit and people talk about it all the time. Even on the side of individuals with disabilities, I wanna hear, and I want Julie to be able to talk about fucking outcomes, hiring outcomes. Chad: So this is your stage, tell us about programs and what you guys have actually done to be able to help companies get actual hires and also retention. Julie: Yeah. And I think that's the important thing is that this is not just a PR activity. When companies are doing it, they need to go all-in and approach it as a talent acquisition strategy. We're at near full employment and there are jobs going unfilled and there's a talent pool that is just not being tapped into because people are scared of how to engage us. Julie: And so from an outcomes perspective, I'll start with my favorite, well my first and my favorite, you know, a long time ago, maybe four or four and a half years ago, Pepsi approached us and said, "Hey, you know what? We really wanna put our money where our mouth is, we wanna start hiring people with disabilities. Not just do philanthropic activities like donations and that type of thing to organizations." And so my organization said, "Sure, let's figure out how to help you do that." And in those four, four and a half years, Pepsi's hired almost 1,000 people with disabilities into just their beverages facilities. So that's a pretty huge number, and I don't see anyone else, maybe one company, that's touted that kind of number. Julie: And you'll notice that Pepsi doesn't talk about it as much publicly, because I think that they can be the brand leader. Because they've actually done it and they've approached it as a hiring initiative or a strategic initiative. Julie: But it's part and parcel to who they are as an organization. They hired in the African America community and marketed to it first. And this was just an extension of who they are as a company. But they also knew to make it sustainable, it had to have a return on investment, it had to have a business value. It couldn't based in feeling bad for people with disabilities or thinking that we can't do physical jobs or we cat do sales jobs. They said, "Find us talent, help us gt the messaging right," and in doing so, they've been successful and they have good ROI and they have great reach now into our community. And people feel comfortable saying, "I'm a person with a disability," when they apply, when they get hired at Pepsi. And that's what I'm talking about. Chad: Okay, so that's Pepsi. You guys also work with Synchrony, which is on the financial side of the house and it's an entirely different kind of organization to hire for, tell us about that. Julie: Yeah. So Synchrony is awesome in terms of like when you wanna work with a company who is like all-in on inclusion, they knew as a strategic initiative from their leaderships, so from their executives, you can see their CEO, Margaret Keane, doing a Bloomberg Talk on the value of hiring people with disabilities. They knew that they wanted to do this because they're inclusive by nature. Chad: Now wait a minute, wait, wait, wait. What does all-in mean to you? Julie: All-in means that they're willing to put resources, dollar, time, and brand to an initiative. You can't say I'm just gonna hire people with Autism in Mishawaka, Indiana and that's not all-in. It might be a nice pilot, but that's not all-in. Julie: When they said, "We need something that we can- Chad: That's probably a shitty pilot too, to be quite frank. Julie: You know, it was the first random place I thought of. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Julie: They really kind of went to that other side, they were thinking, "How can we make an impact in our community? We want to change the world for people with disabilities." And you love working with companies like that because their heart is in it. But my job as their consultant is to say, "That's awesome, but let's make it business driven too. Let's have goals and measures. Let's make sure that our systems are working to create opportunity so that when you have success and you hire people in Kettering, Ohio, you can grow that to other locations. Either at all at one or in kind of a systematic way. And that's what they've been able to do. From one sight and then grow into more sights, which makes sense. But their system also works with that. Chad: Gotcha. Joel: Julie, at the risk of sounding insensitive- Chad: Like that's ever stopped you before. Joel: It's never stooped me before because she's all-in. Joel: What disability is sort of the most challenged in finding employment and why? And how do we help clear that hurdle? Julie: I think that depends on who you ask. And I would say that my opinion is that people with serious mental illness, which is not a huge population in our country, about 10 million people have the biggest barriers to employment because that is where the most fear lies. Julie: I was actually reading an article last week that recruiters would rather hire a person with a physical disability, one that they can see, than someone who suffered from depression or anxiety, which are probably the two most common mental illnesses in this country. And aren't necessarily defined as serious mental illness, so if people like that can't get a job and recruiters are scared of hiring someone because they have depression or anxiety, what is it gonna be like for someone who has a serious mental illness like bipolar or schizophrenia? They're chances of getting employed is almost zero. Chad: Which is why people don't identify as actually having a disability, especially when it's hidden, right? Julie: And they don't even take the chance and they become dependent on government assistance and the social safety net because employers don't feel comfortable giving them even an opportunity. And some would disagree with me, but what I think is the biggest way to start to overcome those hurdles is to normalize disabilities like mine and physical disabilities into the workplace. So that when you think about even the LGBT movement over the past 40 years, you know we started accepting one acronym and then the next one and then the next one, and now we are accepting of so many more people in that community. And it's the same I think with disability. It's like once we get comfortable with, "Hey, depression is a normal part of life." We saw Jason Kander pull out of his mayoral race yesterday because he had to admit for the first time out loud that he has PTSD and he's suffering from major depression. We say it's okay to take care of you, and you have a value in the workplace. Then that's when we start to overcome some of those barriers and we start to really push people who have more significant disabilities to be able to have opportunities. But until we normalize even the most basic or well known disabilities, then the rest of the people have no chance. Chad: Okay. So let's flip that real quick. So I've actually seen organizations who focus on specific disabilities. So let's say, for instance, autism. Julie: Yes. Chad: I mean, so that's one of the things like with veterans. It's like, okay, we want to hire just this segment of veterans because we think they're perfect for our jobs, and that, to me, is a bunch of bullshit. So from your standpoint, is it the same? I mean, so let's say for instance like some of these autism types of ... Not that you shouldn't hire individuals with autism, but what do you think about just focusing narrowly on one disability for positions within your organization? Julie: So that's a tough question to answer. First, I have to put two different hats on when I think about it. The first one is my consultant hat, and the consultant in me says there are roughly a million and a half Americans with an autism diagnosis. 80% of those are under the age of 22. So if I'm thinking about quantity and quality of people that I need to fill my jobs, that's a pretty limited talent pool, and most of them are not even to working age yet. Chad: Right. Julie: There are roughly 45 million Americans, one in five, who have a mental illness. One in four Americans overall has a disability. So you're setting yourself up for some failure. Chad: So 25% of Americans have a disability. Julie: Yes. Yep. And I just got updated last month by the CDC. Chad: Okay. Julie: So when you're thinking about how to make impact, how to actually change the world because that's what these kind of programs are doing. They want to change the world for people with autism or with a certain disability. If they focus on the larger population, they could have so much more impact as a company, but they would also get a much better business return. And then from a branding perspective, it's pretty damn frustrating. Chad: So yeah, from your standpoint, I mean, because you're an individual with disability but you don't have autism. So if a company actually says, "Yeah, we're really just focusing on individuals with autism," what does that do to the really the line share of individuals who disabilities who literally could do that job? Julie: Yeah, I mean, you're talking about such a small percentage of the disability population that it's pretty insulting. As a person with a disability, it's pretty insulting and it's incredibly off putting to the rest of us who just want to go to work, who want to have opportunities. Chad: Right. Julie: It also very much reinforces stereotypes that we would like to break down. It says that people with autism are only good at maybe IT or finance jobs, that they can only work in these four or five positions within a company or that they need special programs where they have job coaches and etc., etc. The point is if you've met a person with a disability, you've met one person with a disability, and trying to shove a certain disability into a certain job classification, it reinforces very, very bad stereotypes within the working world, within employers that we have a limited number of jobs that we can do. But it also then from a consumer perspective and a job seeker perspective, I don't want to go work for those companies. I don't suffer from autism. Julie: I will say I'm glad when any company is hiring. If they hire five people and those five people get to work, I hope those people run with it and they grow into a career within that organization. But the money companies are spending to run these singular small programs could be reinvested into enterprise wide programs if you actually approached it as a hiring initiative that targeted the talent and not the disability. Joel: Julie, we hear a lot in the news about the gender pay gap, but we don't hear much about I guess a disability pay gap. Is there one? Can you talk about that a little bit? Julie: It's a little bit hard. There is certainly a pay gap. With people with the most significant disabilities, there's been a lot of change in our world over the past maybe five to six years about moving away from what's called sheltered workshops where people kind of do piece meal work. Chad: They get paid like pennies on the dollar, literally to do ... Julie: They make may 10-25 cents a day, and that certainly reinforces stereotypes, and those are people with the most significant disabilities, and they may not be able to go into a full time position. But really what we see is that that's a way that companies use to outsource labor to keep piece meal type of production very, very cheap, and then call it philanthropic work when it's, in my opinion, akin to servitude or unpaid work altogether. But overall, because the unemployment rate is still so high with people with disabilities, we don't really know what pay gap is, and because people are not comfortable standing up and saying, "Hey, I am a person with a disability," the analysis can't really be done yet. What I see most often in terms of where I know that it impacts pay is people with disabilities being steered into entry level jobs or being put into jobs because of their disability that are well below their skill set. Julie: I was actually just watching a video from a successful hiring program, and a young lady I believe had like two undergraduate degrees and all kinds of mad skills, but because she didn't interview well and because she came through a program specifically for people with disabilities, she got put into a call center job. I appreciate that she got the opportunity and I hope she gets the opportunity to gro, but that's not really utilizing her talent. And that's definitely going to create even if she continues to grow in the company, that's going to create a barrier for her in terms of pay because she's going to have started in a place lower than her peers without a disability. Chad: Are they incredibly well educated? I mean, again, there are stereotypes behind it. What's the reality behind it? Julie: Yeah. I mean, so autism specifically, about 35% of people with autism are graduating with a degree, an undergraduate degree, and 85% of them are still unemployed. Chad: Wow. So 85% of the ones who actually have a degree? Julie: Yes. Yes. But remember how small this population is, right? Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Julie: So when we get hyper focused on this group of people, we miss the fact that people are working and need opportunities every day who have mental illnesses, who have physical disabilities, who have educations, who have experience but can't get through that barrier of just getting started. Chad: Right. So you mentioned we are pretty much at full employment right now. Job markets doing great. But what's the unemployment rate of individuals with disabilities? Julie: So the unemployment rate is always about twice of what the overall unemployment rate is, but where it really kicks in is that because people with disabilities don't participate in the labor force as much, we have about a 70% unemployment rate. And part of that is because of social safety nets that the government has trained people with disabilities to be fearful of going back to work. But it's also because companies have not sought to engage in any meaningful way with this talent pool. Joel: Julie, in the news recently, we've seen Amazon raise the minimum wage for their employees to $15 per hour. We've also seen the gig economy kind of explode. Up Work went public this week. What do these two trends mean for those with disabilities, both the gig economy as well as the increases in minimum wage? Julie: So I think they're great opportunities. One thing that we do see is a focus on people with disabilities in entrepreneurship programs who are able to work remotely if they're working in kind of gig economy. I think some of the social challenges and networking challenges make that right now maybe not as advantages as it could be for kind of gig work. Raising the minimum wage, in my opinion, is good for every worker, but it's definitely going to impact people with disabilities who are in those entry level jobs because they're going to be able to get higher wages. They're going to be able to start to come off benefits and that kind of thing. They're going to be lifted out of a place of poverty because even people with disabilities who have educations, a vast majority live at or near the poverty line because they aren't able or they're not given the opportunity, let me say it that way, to get into meaningful employment based on their skills. Chad: So what they're actually ... They're being underemployed, but it seems like much like on the veterans side of the house, the underemployment, not to mention what I like to call charity work. Julie: Yeah, and that's the other thing is that these programs that are based on charity, as soon as the economy does what it does. It corrects. We take a downturn. Normal business cycle or worse, then these charitable based programs go away. And these companies have sold people with disabilities employed through these programs a bill of goods. We value you. You have a place here. That's all bullshit at that point because you're just overhead because it's seen as philanthropic endeavor, a charity endeavor, instead of an actual business strategy. And that just reinforces why people don't participate in the labor system, why people with disabilities ... Why employers are scared to hire people with disabilities because charity's been such a high focus of these like kind of PR activities around hiring. Chad: So how are your clients? How is Pepsi, how is Synchrony Financial, how are they viewing it and actually creating these business-focused types of programs versus charity? And what did you guys have to do with Disability Solutions to really kind of get them away from some of the thinking's that were out there, or did you have to? Were they already ... They were just ready to do it? Julie: I would say no company is ready to do it. They might have a great desire to do it, but they're not sure how. And that's part of the trepidation too is they don't know how to take that first step. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Julie: With some companies, I would say with all of them, it's starting to understanding how their talent acquisition systems function because I don't feel like I've done a service to the company I'm working for or to my community if we have to create special programs every single time. People with disabilities should be able to live and apply and go through your talent acquisition systems like other people. There might be opportunities we can create within those systems, but they still need to be able to be a part of your system of record. That way not only is the program compliant and we can work on those self disclosure numbers, but it also becomes scalable and sustainable. So that's really the first, I think, thought process that companies go. We have to create an entirely different way for people to apply. We have to create all of these systems to support. And yes, people may need some support. But that's on an individual level, and if we can create inclusive hiring experiences through our vendors and systems that companies work with, then the people have a much higher chance of actually getting in front of that hiring manager. Chad: Okay, so Pepsi, because they're consumer good, right? I mean, from their standpoint and the numbers that you just stated, they're close to 1000 hires, around 1000 hires, that's well above any of the other companies that are coming out on the PR side of the house saying, "We love individuals with disabilities." That's a huge number so obviously we haven't heard anything from Pepsi on the PR side, so this is obviously something that they believe in. When are they gonna shift this into more of a focus of their whole culture so that it also helps them sell product. Really, if it is a part of their culture, that's what people want to gravitate toward and they want to be able to support companies who believe in people like them. So, I love that Pepsi's doing this and they're staying quiet about it, but dude. Turn around and start ... I mean, flip on the PR. Julie: Your guess is as good as mine and if I could convince someone in Pepsi marketing to say, "Hey, let's start talking about this all right now," I would have done it two years ago, but to their credit, they care about the community and they care about their brand and they want to make sure that they've demonstrated that they're doing it and they're not just talking about it and so you see some companies who have hired like three people and they're doing PR all around it and PR is good in terms of yes, people with disabilities can work here, but it doesn't really mean anything to me as a person with a disability because it's three people. I want to see a company actually go all in and hire across the country, across the world big numbers, and I think that is Pepsi's vision, or at least that's how I feel and I know how committed they are to it. Would I love them to talk about it? Hell, yes I would. Chad: How many locations have they actually hired individuals with disabilities into? Julie: So we've actively integrated their employer brand and program, which is called Pepsi ACT, it stands for achieving change together into nine US locations, some manufacturing and warehousing, some sales and call center type of jobs, and some technical kind of repair and refurbishment roles so a good variety of roles within that beverages system, but what we really have seen there that is even more impactful is that their self disclosure numbers are raising across the country because people are hearing. We're a small community and so while you haven't heard Pepsi out on their halftime show at the Super Bowl, hint hint, doing PR for this, they've been awarded state and national awards for their programs, state work force agencies are recognizing them. They got a visit in North Carolina from then Secretary of Labor Perez, because local community based providers said, "We know a company that's doing this right and we want to introduce you." Chad: So there's a lot of word of mouth that has traveled that's really helped this to grow in a brand way. Chad: So nine locations, but how many ... I mean, you've seen impact past those nine locations. Julie: Oh yeah. Like, probably 40% of the hires that are self disclosing are outside of those facilities. Chad: So that's happening really driving from a branding standpoint. Julie: Yes. Chad: Because there's a culture and they can see it and they believe it. Julie: Yes, and what I love about Pepsi ACT as a brand, they said up front, "This is something that we want to do. We've made sure that the language is right and what we really stayed away from when we were working on the branding was a charitable based message that achieving change together is the community benefiting and Pepsi benefiting from the talent." So it's a win, win strategy. It's not a charitable based strategy, it's not a compliance based strategy, and I think that's really meaningful and it's one of the ... and I'm biased, obviously ... it's one of the only employer brands for people with disabilities that really is all inclusive and not based on a charity model. Joel: My limited knowledge of this topic sort of ends at the borders of 'Murica. Julie, paint for me a global perspective of disability. What countries are crushing it? What countries are really way behind? Julie: I think some of the European countries are doing substantially better than we are because they have been focused on integration for longer. Other countries that are developing, like India, have a need. They actually have a need to go and hire people with disabilities because there are no social safety nets that help people survive when they're not working, and because they're growing so fast in terms of economy, they need to be able to get people to work. So from what I've seen, and I was able to visit India last year with one of our clients, and they were putting in training to teach managers sign language, they were hiring people from the deaf community, and each hiring manager had a hiring goal and a commitment to the activity because they needed bodies and they needed talent and they also have a commitment back into their community and what was cool about that experience that I think I loved the most was that they were doing it because they wanted to and because they needed to, not because the government was making them. No one said, "We're gonna take away your federal contract if you don't hire some people with disabilities." They already saw the value and the need in their community and in their business. Julie: That's where I think those countries who are developing and growing so much faster than we are in America right now, because we're aging as a population, I have a feeling that they may get ahead of the game in the next 15 years or so and actually start to make real impact because they want to. Chad: Last question. So what really pisses you off most when you're actually engaging with a company and you're talking to them about effective hiring of this amazingly big talent pool, which is well educated and so on and so forth? What pisses you off most that they're saying back to you, or at least the kind of ... the narrative that you're hearing? Joel: Let's get it on. Chad: There it is. Julie: Oh my. That's actually a pretty easy answer, a question to answer. It's in one word and it's called appetite. I have heard so many times from D&I leaders who I'm meeting at conferences who we're pitching services to, sometimes who have hired us and they've said, "You know, there's just not really an appetite for disability in our D&I programs. We're just gonna concentrate on race and gender because we have a commitment to diversity." Well, no you don't. Your old school, 1970s thinking of race and gender is absurd. Chad: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Time out, time out, time out. No, no, no. Time out. So they actually said specifically, "We're focused on diversity but we don't have an appetite to hire individuals with disabilities?" SFX: Boo. Chad: You've got to be shitting me. Julie: No. Chad: They are actually ... People in D&I. These aren't just hiring managers? Julie: No. Chad: I mean, hiring managers that ... we're talking about people who are responsible for diversity hiring programs? Julie: Yes. These are D&I leaders at fortune 1000 companies who will say to the disabled girl or the girl with a disability in the room, "Yeah, I just don't know that we have an appetite for hiring with disabilities. We're gonna focus on race and gender and I think that's gonna be good." That's their commitment. Some have said, "Well, it's a slippery slope. If we start including veterans and people with disabilities, where will that end?" I don't know, where you get an inclusive workforce. That would be awesome. Joel: Oh my god. Chad: Oh my god. Julie: And I can tell you there are brands that I no longer interact with and I would never disclose those publicly, but there are brands that I will not interact with because their D&I strategy is so ass-backwards that it's only focused on what the government required them to do in the original affirmative action executive order. The reality is I'm a woman with a disability, there are people of color with disabilities, there are veterans with disabilities, there are LGBTQ individuals with disabilities. We're a pretty inclusive group. We are all inclusive and when you hire us, you hire those other really important populations too and it's insulting and it's bullshit and it's just ... like a diversion. They might as well just kind of kick me out and throw me on the street, because they don't have any interest in what we're doing. Joel: Okay. Joel: I love that we now have to put an E on this podcast because Julie said bullshit. Julie: Yes. Ha ha. Chad: Way to go. Julie: Awesome. I'm so proud of me. Joel: So Julie, thanks for joining us. Thanks for your time. For those like me who are limited in this subject, where can I learn more about the subject? How can I learn more about your company? Julie: You can visit us at disabilitytalent.org and check out all our services and our outcomes. Chad: Twitter handles, I mean all this other stuff. Come on. Julie: Yeah. Twitter handles? Really? Apparently I'm a newbie. Joel: Sure. Julie: We have a Facebook page, disability solutions. Our Twitter handle is DSTalentAtWork, and my Twitter handle is juliesowash and I also have a Facebook and email and LinkedIn. Chad: LinkedIn, oh yeah. Julie: You can find me everywhere and I want to talk to you. Joel: Awesome. Thanks for your time again. Chad, if there are no more questions from you, I guess we out. Chad: We out. Julie: We out. Ema: Hi. I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy, Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit chadcheese.com. New Speaker: Remember to visit tatech.org. #diversity #DisabilityHiring #DisabilitySolutions #Hiring #Jobs #Uncommon #TATech #BadAss

Welcome to the newly anointed ReSI WINNER for Most Innovative Podcast / Blog in the Talent Acquisition space - that's right The Chad & Cheese Podcast won! Thanks to all of those who voted! #chadcheese :) That being said, we're still licking a few wounds from a week in N'awlins, the boys started an IV of Pedialyte before sitting down to recap: - TAtech NOLA - DEATH MATCH - SourceCon and Joel's favorite takeaway -- KeywordShitter - Pandora purchasing SiriusXM "Content Baby Content" - and Slack killing email. Enjoy and visit our sponsors, Sovren and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast: Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Hey boys and girls, and all you saints out there, time to put away those hurricanes, throw out that bottle of absinthe. We're back from New Orleans, bitches. Welcome to the newly awarded winning podcast we lovingly call the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: This week we sum up our travels from last week including SourceCon and TAtech. Slack is literally killing email, and you'll never guess how Chad came home with more beads than me after a night on Bourbon Street. Jambalaya, étouffée and gumbo breath is coming at you after this quick word from Sovren. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to- Joel: Wrong ad, sorry. Here we go. SOVREN: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now, based on that technology, comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job, and just as importantly the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. SOVREN: We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren; software so human you'll wanna take it to dinner. Joel: I think you gotta keep that faux pas in the final edit. Oops. Whoopsie. Chad: Whoopsie. Joel: We gotta- Chad: Yeah. Joel: Keeping those bloopers in the show I think gives these idiots a real stupid appeal that our meathead listeners love. Chad: I don't think we need more of that. That being said, I wanna get these shoutouts real quick. John Bell, CEO of Rethink Data, gotta give him a shoutout for calling us, you and I, Chad and Cheese, the Kardashians of the industry. No talent, but a ton of attention. Yeah, that's funny, John. Fuck you. Joel: I'm sorry, I can't hear him, there's a ReSI award in my eye. Sorry, man. He's no relationship to Le'Veon Bell, is he? Chad: I don't think so. If so they would be shopping his ass around much like they are Le'Veon. Joel: That's a really specific shoutout for a really general week. I'm gonna give a shoutout obviously to Peter and Repete Weddle from the TAtech show. Again, another bang up, crushing it job by those guys, had a great time in New Orleans. These guys continue to do it right, and deserve a shoutout as my number one. Chad: Oh yeah, no question. Thanks to Elan from TMP, you referred a great restaurant, I appreciate that. Because one thing we don't talk about on this pod enough is food, and one of the best places to get food in this great nation is New Orleans. So thanks Elan, we really appreciate that, and my wife thanks you as well. Joel: I can't agree more, and for those out there that know my wife, she actually hates seafood. It's a burden on our marriage for sure, but when I go on the road without her, in New Orleans especially, I'm eating seafood. Ate out with you a few times, and I'm sure you noticed it definitely swam what went into my belly. Chad: Oh God, yeah. Also shoutout to Nexxt, Talroo, AllyO, Canvas, Talkpush, JobAdX, and Uncommon for making me their billboard all week. Wore their swag, whether I was traveling, I was on site, didn't matter. Repping all the people who are a part of either Chad and Cheese or even the Death Match. So big shoutout to all you guys. Joel: Shoutout to our sponsors is basically what you're saying. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And I will second that. Love our sponsors, we see them out frequently. They feed us, they give us alcohol, they give us inside scoop, it's always great to see them, so I will second that shoutout as well. Shoutout to the city of Atlanta and the SourceCon conference for me, I was there Monday and part of Tuesday of last week before I went to New Orleans. Joel: SourceCon, if you've never been, awesome show. It's the freaks and geeks capital of recruiting. The people who were just total wackos 10 years ago are now sort of running the whole recruiting department. Chad: That's crazy. Joel: In terms of sourcing folks. You know the names, Jim Shroud, Steve Levee, I could go on, but that's a great show, it continues to grow. Also a hint for ERE which is coming in October in Orlando, sounds like they've gotten a ... They've had more signups ... They haven't had as many signups on this show since 2008, so it's 10 years in the making that they finally matched the height of the show in 08, and if you remember ERE in 08 you knew it was a must-see show. So really happy for that team out there, and big shoutout to them. Chad: Pretty awesome, pretty awesome. So I'm gonna go back to the alcohol references. Not a member, not a sponsor, but they know how to get shoutouts. Michael Odell from Nuevo, or Nuevoo, or whatever, for the Jack Daniels whiskey that I found in my mailbox when I got back from New Orleans. Chad: Shoutout to Pia and Max from Talkpush who actually flew to New Orleans with mezcal for you and I, we have our own bottles. Joel: Yeah, I've never had mezcal, so if anyone has cocktail tips or, do you just drink this thing straight? On the rocks? I don't know, so send us your mezcal cocktail drinking advice to #chadcheese, or hit us up at chadcheese.com. I'm always impressed about how you're legally technically not allowed to send liquids through the mail, but our sponsors do it anyway. Chad: That being said, Kyle from Hireology is smart about that because he always buys us beer at the conference. Whenever we're getting ready to do a show, generally Kyle will show up with beer, so big ups to Kyle. Joel: And let's keep with the TAtech references for Death Match, which we'll take on here in a little bit, how great was Bloody Marys and Mimosas during and before the Death Match the morning of? I thought that was just total ups on that, total props, total shoutout on that call. Chad: It was perfect, it set the stage for what Death Match is supposed to be. Chilled out, a good time had by all, and all the contestants, Canvas, AllyO, Talkpush, and Uncommon did an amazing job on stage. And we're gonna put those out later this week. Joel: Totally agree. Next Death Match we should make downing cocktails before the presentations a mandatory thing, and make it 5% of your grade is gonna be how you handle the liquor before the show. But that was a great time. You took all my alcohol shoutouts, I might- Chad: You can do the JobAdX dinner shoutout. Joel: Okay, JobAdX, great sponsor, great product, great company, great people. Second event in a row they've taken us out to dinner, so they must think we're a pretty good company, for some reason. Chad: Dropping leads. Joel: Your wife joined us, so that definitely upped the stock in value, bringing us to the last dinner. Mitt, Tim, Isabelle, great peeps, shoutout to all you guys. Chad: And they were taking video during dinner, so I'd like to know what the hell they're gonna do with that video. Joel: I'm not convinced it wasn't black and white, I think it's gonna look like ... It's gonna look like a Sting video, it's gonna ... Yeah. Chad: I think we probably look better in black and white. Joel: Good luck with the mileage on that. Are we done with shoutouts? Chad: Yeah, let's do this, man. Joel: All right, let's do the show, man. Joel: All right, so TAtech, dude, start off with Death Match, start off with takeaways, what do you wanna- Chad: Let's talk about really quick what TAtech is, because all of our listeners maybe they haven't attended a TAtech yet, so what's your thought on ... How is TAtech different from all the other conferences that are actually out there, and why do we go in the first place? Joel: I love TAtech for a couple reasons, number one is its ability to evolve. It started as the IAEWS, which was the International Association of Employment Websites, which is a mouthful. But it was primarily a job board conference. A couple years back they changed it to TAtech, seeing the waves of change coming, that the job board industry was much bigger than just that. Joel: So I love the evolution of the show, it still is a big pull for job boards and job sites, but it's also progressively becoming an all-encompassing tech show for HR. So if you go to HRtech, those companies are there, the job gates with all the job board stuff, they're there as well. It brings both of those together, so that's one of my takeaways. Joel: Weddle is a lifelong recruitment icon, his value is immeasurable in terms of the industry, and he brings that to every show. It's always a party, which I think is great. Yeah, those are my takeaways from the show. I think if you are a vendor, even if you're looking to find out what the vendors are doing, what are the hottest companies, what are the old guard doing to stay relevant and alive, this is a great show to attend. Chad: Yeah, and to be able to separate it from an HRtech, there are no background screening companies on boarding, it is talent acquisition focused, and that's the cool part about it. It has evolved from just job boards to machine learning, AI, chatbots, all the things that we talk about on the podcast is happening in a more intimate setting, and the beautiful part about it is they have this deal center kind of setup, so that when you're in HRtech and you can't find a place to sit down and have a fucking conversation for God's sakes, these guys have actual breakout rooms ready so that you can sit down and you can have discussions, and actually talk about deals and technology and so on and so forth. Chad: So it's a much more intimate setting, it's more focused- Joel: Yeah, and by the way, think of the heavy hitters they get to attend and present. Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, a lot of shows don't get those people to present and be there and network with folks. Bogomil, I think the only speaking engagement he's ever had, and he's left Google Hire, but the only one I can think of that he's really had was TAtech in Dublin. Chad: Yeah, I think one of the first ... He might have, but there's no question he definitely felt like he needed to be there. So yeah, if you haven't come to a TAtech definitely check it out. We enjoy it, we go to a ton of different conferences, but definitely it's one of the reasons why we wanted to partner with these guys to be able to get the word out about Chad and Cheese. Joel: Yep, they get it for sure. Chad: The venue was on Bourbon Street, which was frickin' awesome, we were right next to the Absinthe House. Joel: Absinthe House, yeah. Chad: That was prime location. We actually heard a presentation from Art Zeal, the CEO of Dice. Personally I thought it was really somewhat high level and focused on retention, which is more HCM than TAtech, so it was interesting why he would pick TAtech to talk about human capital management retention and that kind of stuff. What were your takeaways from his presentation? Joel: It was a total snoozer, dude. I was so mad I got up for it. It was just very vanilla, it wasn't anything about ... I wanna say the title was like Surviving in an Ever-changing World, or something, and I was expecting what Dice is doing to revive its brand and its business, its growth plans, advice for other job boards, yadayada. And we've seen that when we met with Monster, our stuff's kinda broken, here's what we're doing to fix it, and this is why we think it's a great thing, and I was hoping that Dice would give us something similar. Joel: But it was a total vanilla, just sleepfest, and I was kinda mad that we left. And then I was mad that we went up to Art and said, “Hey dude, let's do an interview,” and he sorta gave us the “Oh yeah, that sounds great, I'll be here all week”, and I never saw him again. I think he bounced right after he talked. Chad: Totally ducked out. Yeah, hopefully, don't hold our breath, but let's try and get this cat on the podcast, and then we can talk about real, real shit, not just this kind of overview of boringness. Joel: Yeah, Art, the guy before you sat down with us, it's time for you to step up. Get on the line, tell us what's up at Dice. Q&A with ChadCheese, let's do it. Chad: Let's do this, goddamn it. Also, thanks to Shane Gray for stepping in last minute. We all three actually had to step in because unfortunately, George Larocque had a medical issue that popped up and we totally hacked up his presentation. So appreciate that. Joel: Is George okay? I guess I didn't know it was a medical thing. I thought it was something else. Chad: Yeah, I think he's doing okay. I think he's going to make it. Joel: If you haven't heard our interview with George, go to archives and check that out. That was a great interview that we had with him. Chad: That's good stuff, good stuff. Joel: Do you have any takeaways from that session? Chad: Yeah, no question. I think the money's still pouring into the job board space, but there're reasons behind that. The big reasons are, there's a brand there. There are huge candidate databases. I mean, there's data that you can work off of. Not so much in these brands have revenue that are already flowing in relationships that they've already connected and have had, for in some cases, for decades. Chad: So yeah, why is money flowing into a dying platform? And some of the job boards got pissed off at us for saying that. But at the end of the day, there's the opportunity to evolve out of this old, classified online bullshit, and turn it into something new and different with the data you have available. So, I see some great opportunities for job boards to become something entirely different, either through VC or partnership, or whatever. And we talk about it all the time on the pod. Chad: That was something that really did surprise me, that, that much money, I don't want to say the lion share, but a very large portion of the dollars that we're seeing in VC are going to the job board industry itself. Joel: Yeah, I think one of my broad takeaways on the investment side is that it's becoming more global. We're seeing more money flow into French companies and German companies, Australian companies. All of those markets are very unique in terms of where the job board industry is, and how healthy is. Joel: So, one of the examples was, someone from Germany stood up and, "Things are good in the job board industry." ... Apparently in Germany, yes, life is very good for job boards. I don't, as you don't, have a real core competency in every single country outside of the U.S. and how their markets are, but certainly in certain places it's better than it is in the States. So we tend to come from it as sort of myopic in just North America. Joel: It's great to go to a conference and get multiple opinions on that. I think the money flowing into job boards primarily, is on a global scale, and people trying to gain market share. I mean, job boards in Africa for example, are super new. So there's a lot of opportunity there that is not in North America. Chad: Right, I think you take a look at some of these in the different organizations, like StepStone. So Wolfgang was from StepStone, he was talking about really, I mean, they built everything, everything from the ground up. They didn't partner to allow those Trojan horses to prospectively to happen within their actual system itself. So, as we talk about partnership to be able to grow quicker, to be able to be more sustainable, possibly. It was interesting to get his take on, we watched America, watched the U.S., and we watched all this partnership which was pretty much laden with the opportunity of a Trojan horse to pop up, like Indeed, and really take your market share. Chad: Where they, were pretty much, hey, we're going to build everything, and we're really not going to partner as much to be able to build core infrastructure. So that was an interesting way to insulate yourself from the rest of the market, to an extent. Until you can't move fast enough, that's the biggest issue. Joel: Yeah, I think one of the questions was, "What are companies doing to balance out or provide value to employers?" And my answer was, most of them are building technology. You know, Monster, with video, or mobile, or whatever it is, like, they're becoming technology companies. Joel: So, if you're listening in another country, if you want to get ahead of the curve, start thinking about new tech that you could be providing or building for your audience, and for your long-term health and sustainability. Chad: So what about those ReSIs, what do you think about those? Joel: The ReSIs are awesome. For those who don't know, recruiting, I don't know what it stands for, but it's an award ceremony. And it started out almost as a red carpet event with tuxedos and gowns and stuff. It has evolved into cargo shorts and flip flops. But, it's a great event, and I think it mirrors the audience and demographic pretty well. Joel: So a variety of awards. I think you did a shred of breaking down all the winners. So, if you want to know the winners, you've got to subscribe, check out the shred, either coming soon or it's already published by the time you listen to this. But most notably, you and I and our podcast, was the nominee for best blog/podcast. There were three other contestants, or nominees, and we won. And that was great. So thank you to our listeners, those who voted. We definitely begged enough, to get enough people to give us some love. But, I'm blown away. Joel: When we started this thing, I thought a few dozen people might listen. The fact that we've been able to touch so many lives is pretty awesome, without getting too cheesy. So it's always nice to get an award and be recognized for the work you've done, and the popular that you're enjoying. Chad: And thanks for all the love and sarcasm on the socials out there, people. Really appreciate it. It was great. I mean, it was great! It's funny, because you were talking about how it was black-tie, and it's the most like, you know what, this industry really isn't, it's more a flip-flops and cargo shorts, to an extent. So I think it was good that it's finding where it should be, this award. But man, it's a good looking award. I mean, I've slept with it every night that I've had it. It's been awesome. Joel: I will add that there's only one trophy between the two of us. So I'm not sure how we're going to juggle. Chad: You already have one. You already have one, you're fine. Joel: I like two, man, common on dude. Peter, if you're listening man, give me a price on my own ReSI award. Because I know Chad's never going to let me see the light of day. Chad: I'll send you pictures, it's okay. I'll let you hold it when you're in the house. Joel: I don't think I've even touched it. I think you grabbed that thing and held it like a baby, and probably did not let go from the time that you got the award. Chad: No, because it's got sharp edges, and I don't want you to hurt yourself. Joel: I appreciate that. Chad: So Death Match. Let's talk about Death Match. Joel: Death Match, it was, yeah, okay. So for those who don't know, right? We did our show in Vegas at the last TAtech. And it felt kind of flat. We don't know why. It's Vegas, people are hungover, lunch happened, there was kind of a Debbie Downer at lunch apparently. So we powwowed, and we said, how do we do something that's going to get people out of bed, get them excited, get them engaged, yadda-yadda. Joel: So we used our Firing Squad, or Shark Tank is kind of an example. And we got four startups in the space, four relatively different businesses, I think. And had them come on stage, 15 minutes, two-minute pitch, Q&A, and at the end, the judges got together and selected a winner. Chad: I think the biggest piece was, on Firing Squad, we in some cases, ripped the startup to shreds and nobody was going to want to do that on stage, right? So we were smart about it, at least we thought we were. We took it down to 15 minutes, so two-minute pitch, and 15 minute total, with Q&A, and then the next contestant came up. Chad: So four contestants, Canvas, AllyO, Talkpush, and Uncommon. Those guys did incredible. It was funny because Max from Talkpush had boxing gloves, and he had this Rocky Balboa apron that he had on. Yeah, he's from California for God's sake. He had this frickin straw cowboy hat. They were throwing out merch as they were going up. We were playing Saliva's Ladies and Gentleman before it started. Chad: The entire production in itself, was just to have fun, drink a Mimosa, drink a Blood Mary or come get some beer from us, that Kyle provided, and let's have a blast. That's really what it was. And this was 9:00 in the morning on the second day of a conference. Joel: In New Orleans. Chad: In New Orleans. And we filled the fucking ... We pretty much, I'd say, three-quarters of the people were there. Joel: And let's not forget Aman Brar from Canvas, serenading judges. And also, making it rain with Canvas stickers all through the show. That was awesome. Chad: Yeah, to be able to listen, we're going to actually put all the Death Match segments out there, 15-minute segments, we're going to put them out, two this week, and two next week. So look for those to drop. Chad: Canvas did end up winning. You'll have to wait to actually listen to all of the pitches and the Q&A, and all the fun stuff. But they all did an amazing job. To be quite frank, I mean, to sit back and to listen to you guys fight it out on who was going to win, was, I think that was just as entertaining. Joel: Yeah, and I think we missed a really important shout-out, a shout-out to our co-judges in Death Match. So we had Faith from College Recruiter, and we had Deb from, I guess now, Shaker, right? So it was great to have different perspectives. We had the agency perspective, the job board perspective, and of course, we chimed in as necessary. Joel: I thought it was a home run. We're definitely going to be doing it again in future shows. It was great. The feedback I got was fantastic, so big ups on Death Match. It was a great success, and good job Canvas, for winning the first one. Chad: Yep. And great job to all the contestants. I'd say probably the next time, we'll be doing this in Lisbon, Portugal. Chad: But just to round out for TAtech, this was an incredibly well put together show. So again, Peter, and Pete, just the logistics of all these moving parts, and assholes like us, to make sure that we have our shit together, that was amazing. Everything, it just, was incredibly smooth. Joel: All right, let's take a quick break and come back and talk SourceCon, Sirius, Pandora, and Slack. Sound good? Chad: Yep. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of," or, "It's the Paypal of," maybe "We're the Facebook of," in many, many cases. These comparisons fall short of being close to reality, or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. JobAdX: In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google AdSense for jobs. That means, we're an efficient, persistent, and smart ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs and staffing firms, realtime, dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings, through the industry's first truly responsive tool. JobAdX: All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click, or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We are not set in regrets. For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishes in job boards, higher rev share than other partners, through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30 to 40 percent greater, and more, through our scalable model. JobAdX: To partner with us, you can visit, or search, JobAdX.com, or email us at, JoinUs@JobAdX.com to get estimates, or begin working together. JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. JobAdX: Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK too. Joel: All right, so quick word on SourceCon. You weren't there, I was. I wasn't there for very long, because I had TAtech, but I was there for about a day and a half. Saw the opening sessions, the main keynotes from day one and two. Joel: These are my four takeaways from the conference. Are you ready? Chad: Bring it. Joel: Feel free to chime in. Okay, number one, in-mail suck, apparently. As well as does email. There was an overarching opinion that LinkedIn's in-mail was very ineffective, which I think is a great segue in learning that Canvas won our Death Match. TextRecruit, we talk about a lot. Emissary, you know, texting is clearly how more and more companies and recruiters are connecting with candidates and job seekers. So, that was an underlying theme of the time that I was there. Joel: The second thing that was interesting to me is, VR, or virtual reality, might actually become a thing. Chad: Oh geezus. Joel: Stay with me here for a second. Intuit, there were two bigwigs at Intuit that presented. And, Intuit, most people don't know as a brand. They know some of their brands like there's tax. There are brands that people know, so when they recruit, it's hard for them to like, "People don't know us. We're in the valley. People want to work at brand names that they know." Joel: So anyway, they aggressively are using virtual reality at events, college recruiting, job fairs, et cetera, to showcase the company. People put on a headset, get their phone, whatever, and tour the company through VR. So I thought that was interesting you don't hear a lot about that. I'm not saying it's the next big thing, but if more and more companies use VR to brand themselves and create an experience, that could be interesting. Oculus by Facebook, you know now is a standalone, less expensive product. We'll see how that does at Christmas time. Maybe it'll catch on, I don't know. But so, VR was a highlight from this presentation and I found that interesting. Joel: SEO- Chad: What? Joel: SEO. Not as, like, optimizing jobs but optimizing ... taking tools in SEO to build a recruiting strategy was a very interesting piece of one of the keynotes. So what they'll do is, let's say, I don't know, PHP developer or something, right? Chad: Right. Joel: So they'll use tools like keyword tools, sites that will search ... sourcing tools that will search LinkedIn and other products or other platforms like that, but so, like, what other things are people searching around PHP developer to find those people? And those might be sites that aren't easily found by other keywords. I just found that kind of interesting, that SEO is sort of permeating the recruiting business in that way. Chad: So research tools, really? I mean, they're looking for- Joel: Research tools, yeah. Chad: ... SEO research tools, okay. Joel: Yeah, so like keyword tools were big. I'll just ... one that was definitely stood out, it was called KeywordShitter. So you put in a keyword and then it shits out related keyword terms. So that was memorable, and kudos to the people who made that site because it is memorable. keywordshitter.com if you're interested in that. Joel: The last takeaway from SourceCon was, business is good. Similar to my takeaway from HR Tech, the good times are rolling, man. Money's being spent, companies need people, they're willing to spend money- Chad: Right. Joel: ... and just as that was very evident at HR Tech, it was very evident at SourceCon. A lot of people there. I think they said it was, like, 750-ish registered attendees, which was great. So business is good, and that was one of my definite takeaways from SourceCon in Atlanta. Chad: So it's funny, you talk about VR, and there's this GEICO commercial that's out there now, where this kid has this VR headset on he's doing all this shit, and his Dad's back and he's talking to Flo, he's like, "What's happened to my kid?" Joel: Yes, I have seen that. Yes, and the drones come in. It's a total technology dump on the kid, right, on the family. Chad: If I went to a job fair, I wouldn't want to put on some headset that some other slimy, greasy-headed bastard had put on, to be able to take a walk-through of your corporate offices. I mean, to me it just seems so stupid. If you want to talk about branding, you want to talk about these different things, let's do that, okay, but this just seems ... It seems very Second Life and stupid. Joel: Fair enough. But if you sit down with these two from Into It, they're going to tell you that it was very successful, so yeah. Chad: I'd like to know what their measurement of success is and how that actually got them more individuals to become hired, and was success actually equates to outcomes. Joel: Yeah, I think it was brand awareness, net promoter score for the ... I don't know how to explain that, exactly, but basically a marketing score between, like, negative 100 and plus 100. I think they were able to take their net promoter score from negative 30 to plus 60, I think, and they gave credit to VR as part of the way that they were able to do that. Chad: And how sustainable is that? Let's go to every fucking job fair that's out there and let's see how many times we can get a head into these things. I mean, it just, to me, scalability ... none of this seems ... It seems like just a little blip in the, "Oh, look, cool," Second Life bullshit radar. I just ... so what? Joel: VR definitely has to hit it big for this to matter. Like, super big. Like, in every house there has to be a headset that people are using to do whatever, for this to really be a thing. If it continues to just be like, "Oh, I went to this event, and I put a headset on, and I saw this company that was kind of cool," that's very forgettable. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But if it becomes a thing, then it's a different ballgame, but we're way away from VR becoming, like, every household is using virtual reality to do stuff. Chad: Yeah, agreed. Joel: Not going to happen. SiriusXM ... Chad: Yes. Joel: Is it just Sirius or SiriusXM now? Chad: SiriusXM. Joel: Because it used to be XM and they merged. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Okay. So SiriusXM is now rumored to acquire Pandora. Chad: Yeah. Joel: This is one that you're hot on. Chad: Hell, yeah. I mean, so SiriusXM has an app right now and it sucks, so this provides a much broader platform of content which can become a part of the SiriusXM content ecosystem. I mean, if you think about it, so the number one podcast serial, which is now being sponsored by Zip, it's exclusively on Pandora, or that's one of the things that they're actually pushing out there. Content is huge. We've always talked about how content is king. That's something we've talked about for over a decade. This is a new look at content and content delivery systems, and XM being in the car and having an app where they've tried to get you outside of the car to continue to utilize their services, and I think they've really failed. So therefore, being able to pull Pandora in, who has a very large free and paid listener base, to start to try to incorporate their content with Pandora's content and really create this ecosystem of cool shit to listen to, and obviously start to drive revenues from it. Joel: I think that Pandora is a little-known, particularly with recruiter advertising, medium, that's really effective and cost-effective as well. I can remember a few stories about companies that were using Pandora to ... Let's talk about job fairs again. They were pushing events through Pandora, which is ... Pandora, in terms of targeting, it's almost just like Facebook and social media. You know what people listen to, you know their basic information, their age, you know what kind of music they're listening to for targeting, you know where they are because most Pandora listeners are on a mobile phone. If you haven't looked at Pandora as an advertising option, you really should, whether it's recruiting or not. So do you think that you'll need one account for both Sirius and Pandora? Do you think Pandora will infiltrate cars that are using Sirius? Any guesses on what this thing will look like? Chad: Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, because Sirius right now, they promote that they have all these channels that don't have advertising, right, because it's paid for by the subscriber. Same thing that Pandora does. I mean, that's the exact same model from a music standpoint, right. But being able to deliver different types of content, which SiriusXM has started to do, but not even close to the amount that Pandora has, so I would assume what they would be looking at is really a SiriusXM-Pandora kind of a platform, where you pay that monthly fee, like you do on Sirius, and you get all of the content. So it really explodes the amount of content that you can listen to, either in your car or on your mobile phone, wherever you're at, and that's the beautiful part. Joel: And by the way, this only helps strengthen the podcast ecosystem. So if you're thinking about a podcast or you are podcasting ... and I don't know of many employers that are having a recruitment podcast or, like, life fit company podcast. I think they will come eventually, so this is definitely a move to strengthen, I think, just audio and how you connect with people in that fashion. Chad: Well, and again, for us, it just makes a hell of a lot of sense because this ... again, this just demonstrates that podcasting and audio is exploding, and if you can transcribe that kind of information, it can also be indexed by the Googles of the world, so I mean, you can really win in all different areas because it's more portable. Joel: And by the way, ZipRecruiter, we're still waiting for that sponsorship from you guys. All right, let's talk Slack. Joel: Slack. Joel: They've acquired Astro, the dog from The Jetsons. Astro is an email service. I don't know much about it. Chad: Yeah. Joel: What's interesting here, like, Slack is literally killing email. They're literally, like, figuratively ending it because companies are using Slack more. Many companies use Slack more than email, but now they're literally acquiring email companies and then shutting them down, which is what they did here, but there's a little more to it than that. Chad: Yeah, I don't see them shutting this down. I think them actually ... Here's my kind of long term vision for this, is that Slack will start to gray what email is versus messaging and texting, overall, and there's going to be a platform, which is Slack, in which you can do this in a very simple manner. So you can pipe all your emails, all your messaging, all your texting, everything into Slack. It all boils down to one thing, it's all communication. So why do I have to go to my email for this type of communication, my phone for texting, or messaging, or Facebook, or whatever it is? Why can't I have a single platform pull all of my messaging, my communication, together ... I think. This is just ... looking at Astro and what it's doing, that's what I think Slack is trying to go toward. Joel: Yeah, there was a writer ... The Verge covered this and the author, I think, summed it up for me pretty nicely. He said, quote, "The fact that Slack is shutting down Astro's app makes it pretty clear where this acquisition is going. It seems less like Slack plans to launch an email app of its own and more like Slack plans to include ways to work with your email inside of its chat app. That could include basic email management, but the real key would be features that let you collaborate on email, so using that chat thread instead of a reply all chain for internal messages or directing a customer support message to the correct Slack channel to be answered right there," end quote. Chad: Yeah, well, think of this too, just from a messaging standpoint, and also being able to really rip all that data and content into Slack. If companies aren't integrated with Salesforce, and all of their emails going into Salesforce in a database and logging all of that, this is perfect for Slack to be able to start taking over there. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative), or scare the hell out of organizations like Microsoft. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Bom-bom-bom. Chad: Yes, and last but not least, last but not least, here's the message to all the companies providing apps into Slack. You're in a test-bed, that's really where you're at, so if your app gains enough traction, there's a good opportunity that you could become acquired, especially if you're aligned with Slack's roadmap. Joel: Amen. We out? Chad: We out. Joel: Happy birthday to my daughter, Stella, who celebrated number nine this past weekend, and in her honor, outro by Stella. Chad: Stella! Stella: Hi, this is Stella Cheeseman. Thanks for listening to the Cheese and Chad podcast, or at least that's what I call it. Anyway, make you sure you subscribe on iTunes, that silly Android phone thingy, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to give buckets of money to our sponsors, otherwise I may be forced to take that coal mining job I saw on monster.com. We out. #Slack #Astro #SiriusXM #Pandora #SourceCon #Canvas #AllyO #TalkPush #Uncommon #StepStone #TAtech

Chad and Cheese land after HR Tech in Vegas drop this crazy podcast - like it's hot - and now off to New Orleans for TA Tech and Startup Death Match. That's right, the boys are covering the industry as only they can - hard and fast. This weeks Topics - CareerBuilder launches Pokemon for Jobs - ZipRecruiter just sponsored the world's most popular podcast - Is that Google in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? - Facebook staves off the ACLU - Rigzone sells - well kinda - It's DHI in for a hostile takeover? How do those owrk anyway? It's on baby! Be sure to visit sponsors Sovren and JobAdX. They complete us. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your bridge to the disability community, delivering custom solutions in outreach, recruiting, talent management and compliance. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: It's another midnight oil episode, and I'm not talking about the Ozzie band from the '80s. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's Most Dangerous. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Vontae Davis and I quit. Joel: Dude, we haven't even gotten to halftime, what are you talking about? On this week's episode, Career Builder thinks you'll finally fall in love with augmented reality. Chad: Oh, God. Joel: Facebook gets sued for recruitment advertising practices, and is that Google in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me? Poor a cold glass of Zima. Someone could get in trouble tonight. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of, or it's the PayPal of? Maybe they're the Facebook of?" In many, many cases, these comparisons fall short of being close to reality, or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google AdSense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, persistent, and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, IPOs, and staffing firms real time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. JobAdX: All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click, or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regret. For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishers and job boards higher rev share than other partners, through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30 to 40% greater and more through our scalable model. To partner with us, you can visit or search jobadx.com or email us at joinus@jobadx.com to get estimates or to begin working together. JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK, too. Chad: I think I'm gonna actually put like the sovereign banjo in the back of that and see how it sounds. Joel: I think the voice over for Job, we may have the sexiest most sultry, voice over ads in the podcast universe by far. And anymore Zimas and I might, you know. Chad: Don't even ... Joel: Well, I'm not gonna ask you because you don't know. Anyone out there, if they still sell Zima, hit us up on Twitter, #ChadCheese because I don't know if they do or not. I may have made a joke that totally just aged myself, and fell on deaf ears for like anyone under 40 or something. Chad: I think you aged yourself when you said, Twitters. Like with an S. Joel: I didn't say Twitters. Chad: You totally did. Joel: Hey. It's late at night and I've had a couple whiskeys, but I'm pretty sure I did not say Twitters a la George Bush and the internets. So people apparently love these late night shows, so we're gonna roll with it. We're gonna see how this goes. Chad: Excellent. Joel: Yeah, let's get the shout out, so who you got? Chad: New big fan. That's what he calls himself. Stephen Porter over at FTD gets a shout out. Thanks for the listening, Stephen. Now, all you have to do is get your peers, your clients, and your family listening to Chad and Cheese. Go. Joel: I like it, I like it. Shout out to Doug Johnson of Jobalign, CEO. Just some nice comments via LinkedIn. He's a fan. Thought I would just give him a shout out. Chad: Good man. Tim Oliver Proehm, over at Kelly OCG in Germany. He tweeted this. You're not gonna believe it. He tweeted his personal highlight from the first day of HR tech was meeting me, talking programmatic bots, and TA cool shit. I paraphrased that last part. We sat down, had coffee. Gerry Crispin showed up, joined the conversation. We talked about Burning Man for about 20 minutes because he just got back. And that's my friend, how you do coffee. So, thanks, Tim. Really appreciate it buddy. Joel: So, meeting you was his highlight. Chad: Yeah, like everybody's. Joel: All right, shout out to Brett Morris, CEO at Perception Performance Intelligence. Thank God I'm not a sales person at his company. And an Aussie, so he may be getting this early morning tomorrow, or tonight. Big fan of the show. We appreciate you listening, Brett. Keep up the listenership. Chad: Shawna Williams from Comcast, thanks for listening. Joel: And that's not for your cable connection, right? Chad: No, it is for my connection, because I've got a kick ass connection. Infinity. Or Xfinity, whatever the fuck they call it. Nancy from Philly. Thanks for the QA QC, Nancy. Apparently I forgot the E on spelling judge.com website on this week's shred, and I got flamed by Nancy. So thanks, Nancy. Joel: We're gonna have to keep our sponsors to like five words. Five letters or less so that Chad can spell everything. Love Judge. Peter Weddle shout out. Most of the kids out there will know Peter for the TA Tech conference, but Peter's quite a writer and sent both of us an advance copy or a copy of Circa 2118, if man is still alive, what will we be doing when the robots take over? So I, doing a lot of traveling next week, will make my greatest effort to read, Circa 2118 and probably slash my wrists because I'll be so depressed about what's gonna happen to humanity, but shout out to Peter Weddle for the book. Chad: I think what Peter did, was he actually just took the transcriptions from our show and he put it in the book. That's fine, it's okay, Peter. Joel: Are you calling Peter a plagiarizer? Chad: I don't think it can be a plagiarist if we didn't actually write it, it's just a transcription. Joel: Well anyway, Peter. Chad: Props, props to Dave Phoebus from Farmer's Insurance. He heard us talking about Canvas on the pod, and guess who showed up in his office this week with swag? Joel: Canvas. We are Farmer's, bump da bump, da bump, bump, bump. Chad: Bill Fanning for the 24 beers he sent me in the mail, because he loves me and he wanted to say thank you. Bill, you are the man. Joel: We need to start a score card of alcoholic gifts from fans and listeners. You got the lead, so anyone out there who wants to send me any kind of booze whatsoever, please feel free to do so. I'm trying to build up my Irish whiskey collection, so feel free to hook me up with something. Chad: Well, between Bill and Brendan over at Emissary, my beer fridge is stocked. So, if you wanna send craft beer, I'm your guy. That's all there is to it. Not to mention bourbon. So, one of those two. Anything else, Scotch whiskey, you can send it to Jughead over there. Joel: How many did he send you, like a case? Chad: Twenty-four, man. Joel: Oh my God. Chad: Yeah, legit. Legit. Joel: That's some bullshit right there. All right, shout out to, this is a good one I think. Ed Illig, I hope I'm ... maybe I don't hope that I'm saying that correctly. So, there's a company out here in my back, back door, back yard, called Emplify. They just got seven and a half million dollars. Ed is their marketing person, and I've made multiple attempts to contact the company. Like, "Hey, come on, interview you. Learn more about the company," you know. And I've got nothing. I mean, they're literally in the same little bitty borough here in Indianapolis as me. So, Ed, shout out I guess, but really more of sort of a ... You're just not doing your job man. Chad: Does he not know who you are? Joel: Well, and you too, man. Come on. You'd make the trek up for Emplify, wouldn't you? Chad: Yeah, he'd have to spend money on dinner though. Here's the big shout out. Shout out to my wife, Julie Sowash. Tomorrow is our anniversary. Going to Louisville to see St. Paul and The Broken Bones. If you haven't listened to those guys, look them up on YouTube or whatever. Kick ass music. Looking forward to that. Joel: And yeah, I wanna drug test on her, because you're clearly giving her something to hallucinate into thinking that she's married to George Clooney or something. Because I can't figure out why she married you in the first place and why she's still married to you. But, Julie, hats off to you. I'm kind of his second wife in this whole podcast thing. I can only imagine what a full time marriage is like to Chad Sowash. Chad: It's wonderful. Joel: Shout out from me to SourceCon, taking place next week. I'll be making a brief appearance, but I know a lot of our listeners will be going to the fabled sourcing event. All the freaks and geeks out there in sourcing will be there. Hopefully not crying in their beers at the fact that automation will be putting them all out of business in the next five to ten years, but come out to SourceCon, I'll be there. Chad: They should all pick up Peter Weddle's book, Circa 2118. Joel: Yeah, Peter, if you're listening, FedEx me a box of books so I can take them to SourceCon. Chad: Ooh, okay. Are we gonna do this show or what? Joel: Well let's do a quick Death Match shout out. Next week, TA Tech, if you're not there, FU. Death Match, ALLYO, Canvas, Uncommon, and Talk, push it real good, are taking the stage with Chad, myself, Faith Rothberg, surprise guests, who knows. We're gonna be having a helluva time out there at New Orleans. Shout out to everyone that's going. It should be a great time, and we'll probably do a little bit of live recording, some interviews. There should be some great content coming out of the show. And that is my final shout out. Joel: CareerBuilder. Chad: Ooh, talk to me. Joel: Okay. So Career Builder hoping to one up Monster's release of Monster Studios, dropped augmented reality as part of their newly fangled mobile application, only for us iOS users, sorry Chad. Chad: That's okay. Joel: But if you don't know AR, basically you turn your app on, you turn the camera on, on the app. You point it down Main Street and it bubbles up and shows you jobs that are in the buildings from whence you are pointing your camera. And if that doesn't sell you on it, I don't know what will. Chad: Yeah. It's Pokemon for jobs. Joel: If it would only be that fun. Chad: Gotta catch them all. Catch all those fucking jobs, guys. Yeah so, I'm not sure that Career Builder, we talked about the booth, and now we're talking about this AR Pokemon for jobs thing. I'm not sure if they understand the practicality of anything that they're doing right now. They've got some really good product, and they're not spending time focusing on showcasing that. This to me, once again, I hope is going to change in the next few months, because I would love to be able to see this new CEO rip this thing around and actually do better than what they've been doing for the last five to who knows how many years. Joel: So, you're hoping that this new CEO with the financial background is going to tech up the company basically? Chad: I don't have high hopes, dude. I do not, but again, I'm cheering for them, although they also know that when they do stupid shit like Pokemon for jobs, we're gonna say it. This is dumb. Joel: So let me read you the headline from the official press release of this product. Joel: "Career Builder Creates a Major Industry Disruption with AI Technology That Delivers Next Generation Mobile Job Search and Hiring". Joel: Do you think they're building it up a little too much with the PR? Here's my take on this, if apps like Yelp, Hotel Tonight, Groupon, real things that probably might work with augmented reality that people might actually point their camera down a street and see what restaurants are there, how do they rate, if none of them are embracing augmented reality, do I really think that people are gonna open up their phone and point it down the street and look at job postings at buildings nearby? I really do not. Chad: I'm just waiting for them to come out with their new second life job fair app or some shit like that. Joel: They need to have filters, like Career Builder filters. Someone is gonna get mobile right with job search, but it's not gonna be Career Builder probably, and it's definitely not gonna be augmented reality by Career Builder. Chad: Yeah, and last week when you were teasing us and I told you sarcastically that I was sitting on the edge of my seat, this is why, because I knew it was gonna be bullshit. Joel: All right, moving on to a real company called Facebook. They're getting sued. We did talk about this a while back, people were pissed about the companies targeting on Facebook by, oh I don't know, age ... Chad: Yeah, gender. Joel: ... gender, location. There's all these cool ways to target on Facebook. Well some people aren't real happy about that, including the ACLU, who decided to sue the company, reported by Pro Publica. Facebook let Uber and 14 other firms advertise jobs exclusively to one gender over the other last year. Joel: Let's see what else we got. They also say that recruitment ads for nurses at a healthcare facility in Idaho, a diversity hotbed I might add, were marketed exclusively to women. Chad: Wow! Joel: Facebook says it does not tolerate discrimination. The ACLU has filed an official complaint against them over this issue. I know you're really pretty fired up over this. Chad: These guys are fucking stupid. First off, Pro Publica puts out this article and it's titled, "Facebook is Letting Job Advertisers Target Only Men". And they talk about Uber and how Uber's been targeting men and so on, and so forth. I love the "letting". It's that they're allowing them to do this, like Chevy is allowing someone to get into an accident. Joel: We were allowing you to promote your erectile dysfunction drug to men only. Chad: Yeah, exactly. Think of this, over the years rock and roll radio, male dominated demo, but if I do ads on that, employment ads, wait a minute, I'm discriminating. Bullshit! Joel: Separate the article from the actual lawsuit, I understand the spinning of the article sucks. Chad: The lawsuit's bullshit too. It's the same thing. Joel: I totally agree. To me it's like ACLU trying to get some pub. I understand hiring and discrimination is different than, "I want to sell erectile dysfunction drugs ... ", and I'm not sure why I'm on erectile dysfunction drugs, it has nothing to do with me personally, but that's on the company. Joel: So my question is, who made the decision that Uber and these 14 other firms to advertise the way that they did? Was it the company's marketing department? Was it the recruitment ad agency? Was it the HR department? Who do you think was the decision maker in where these ads were posted? Chad: Who cares? Because it doesn't fucking matter. You know what matters? The composition of the workforce is what matters. And if they are heavy in the male side of the house they will get slammed with fines. We're talking and focusing on the wrong shit here, that's the problem. We look at the workforce and we see that there are issues and then we start looking at areas that aren't the big problem. Chad: If the company's responsibility is to be able to make sure that they have the right mix in composition diversity, all that stuff, period. It's the company's responsibility, not the advertising medium. Chad: At the end of the day, who cares? Outcomes are all that matters. Joel: So do you think that Uber .. . And we're just pointing them out because they were named in the article ... Do you think Uber has a responsibility to, if they're advertising to men between 25 and whatever, 22 and 35 or whatever, do they have the responsibility to also target other genders? Chad: Think of it from an advertising aspect. I'm kind of backing out in to my media background. First off, they might have done Facebook for who knows how long, and they've actually shown that they're wasting their money in broader scale on the female demographic on Facebook where they might be able to spend their money somewhere else in more female dominated demo mediums and actually spend money there. It's all about where are you getting the best ROI. Chad: If I want to go broad and say, "I'm gonna throw this out to everyone", like a dumb ass, then yeah, okay ACLU, that's what we'll do, we'll just waste our damn money. But if you're focused on actual ROI and in marketing and you know what target audience responds best with what the specific medium then that's what you do. That's what a media mix is. Chad: For the ACLU and/or Pro Publica to actually come out and say this stupid shit, it's ridiculous. Joel: So let's say 20 years ago a brand new company only marketed in the Wall Street Journal, do they have responsibility to market in demographics that aren't in the Wall Street Journal? Chad: Again, the only thing that matters is the outcomes of those efforts, number one. And their workforce composition, done. I don't care if you do everything in male dominated fashion, you had better have a workforce in [crosstalk 00:19:35]. Joel: Wait a minute, so you're saying the proof is in the workers? Chad: The outcomes. Joel: The outcomes, so who are you employing? Chad: Yes. Joel: So you don't care about where you advertise? Chad: No. Joel: Where you spent your money as long as the end product is effective then that's what counts? Chad: That's what matters. Joel: And by the way, don't we have laws on the books to support that? Chad: Yes. And we have all these different acronym agencies that enforce it. So we're talking about stupid shit is what we're doing. The only thing that matters is the action of hiring, and who was hired. That's it. Joel: All right. I feel like I didn't know as much about this topic as I do now, and I want to thank you for that. Chad: Well you're welcome. Joel: Let's go onto Rig Zone. Sorry I haven't rang the bell in a while, I felt like doing that. Joel: This is your deal. Rig Zone, Sold, and DHI is getting stressed about takeovers and shit. Chad: Right. So we're gonna have to talk to Art next week because we're gonna be in NOLA. Joel: DHI's CEO. Chad: Yep. Dice and the other job force transferred a majority ownership of its Rig Zone business to Rig Zone's management team. What they did was, the management team was there and they were like, "You know what, you want to get rid of this, you said you were going to divest anyway, just sell it to us. We`ll take it back, we'll take it off your hands and then you can go ahead and do your tech focused shit." And that's pretty much what happened. So they just sold it back to Rig Zone's management team. Joel: I feel like I need to refresh people's memory about the idiot who sold Rig Zone in the first place. Chad: Yes. Joel: And stole all the data and then tried to sell it back to DHI or Rig Zone and then started his [crosstalk 00:21:24]. Yeah, he's in jail now anyway. That's just such a damn funny story, I had to bring it back up. Joel: And so what's going on with DHI shareholders? Chad: Yeah at the end of this it was interesting because it says, I'm gonna go ahead and read this off. "Hedge fund TSC Capital Management last month offered to buy DHI group for $2.50 per share in cash and said it would force a proxy contest against the existing board at DHI's 2019's annual meeting of shareholders if the company does not engage in the transaction. This sounds about as hostile as you can fucking get. Joel: Yeah, I'm not real versed on hostile takeovers, I feel like it's a shout out to the '80s movies of Wall Street and a few others. Chad: [crosstalk 00:22:13] hand in the air and say, "You better sell this shit to me", or if this could potentially be a hostile takeover. Joel: We did a story a few months ago I guess, it might have been the same firm that came in and said that the company was undervalued, it was worth a lot more than what it was, the stocks spiked, it has since come back to earth, so yeah, to me this is like an opportunity to maybe take over the whole company to its stocks. There are stocks that the company has, at this point I'm not real sure what they want with the company at this point. It's all kind of mad to me. Dice wasn't even at HR Tech as far as I remember. Chad: I didn't think they were. It's like if you would think that they would be anywhere, they would be at HR Tech. Or maybe they just want to separate themselves so much from the industry, they don't even want its money anymore. Joel: Yeah. We need to talk to Art and get down with what's going on. Hopefully there is this same kind of openness and transparency that we found with Monster's new CEO. Joel: Man, I'm tired. These late night shows are doing me in. Let's hear from Sovereign, maybe that sultry voiceover will wake me up and we'll talk Google and some Zip Recruiter. How does that sound? Chad: Good. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parson products. And now, based on that technology comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second receive match results that provide candidates score by fit to job. And just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Sovren: Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.COM. We provide you technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: All right, I have a score update. We're starting the second quarter, Jets seven, Browns, zero. Chad: Holy shit. Sam Darnold right there, I'm telling you. Joel: It was a running touchdown by former Brown, Isaiah Cromwell, by the way. Wow. Chad: All right. Joel: Let's talk some Google. Chad: Yes. Joel: It says, "Hire by Google" on the website. So I'm gonna do "Hire by Google" from now on. It was Google Hire, then it was Hire for Google, or whatever. So now it's Hire by Google. Joel: So Hire is launching an android app. So this is where all you Android users like Chad get to rub it in our faces, the iOS user. Joel: Though if you are a Hire user, Google has available in beta for development. I guess they haven't officially launched, but you could have Hire in your pocket. So anything you do with Hire now you obviously have to be a client to use it. But you can have that access in your pocket for Android users. I will say that what was interesting to me in this, two things I guess. One is, there aren't many ATSs that have native applications. Workable, Breezy HR, Smart Recruiters were a few of them that I saw in writing a story. So there's a real gap there and at this point Hire's actually an early adopter in terms of native applications. Joel: And my second point is I think as recruiters get younger and younger, these mobile native experiences are what they want. And I think it simply strengthens Googles presence and grip on the lifestyle business and it also says that we're continually serious about this whole employment thing. Chad: Yes. So first off, we talk about the whole app piece. So that means all the Apple users get the CareerBuilder augmented reality Pokemon for jobs app and Android users get the Google Hire App. I think we win that one. It's not my ... don't make the Apple users cry. Joel: Had to do it. Chad: So yeah. All I have to say is I remember when I said, and I got a call pretty quickly after I said this on a podcast, that it felt like hire was a 20% project. Remember? Joel: Ooh. Chad: And that wasn't ... that was really to challenge everybody over at Hire to really step their game up, and I'm gonna tell you, I don't think it had to do with us, but they have. It's not a 20% time project at all, bitches. This thing is rolling and this is one of the things that I believe, because if you think about it, from a commuting standpoint if you're on the train, or whatever you're doing and you're working, you don't want to have to pull out your laptop all the time, you just want to be able to pull out your phone and start scheduling interviews and those types of things. You can do that now with Google's ATS, with Google Hire. So all those applicant tracking systems that are out there who have old and weak-ass apps, this is a call to you. And all of you applicant tracking systems that have no app, get your shit together. Joel: Including, from what I saw, iCIMS, so we're gonna go visit them soon. We're gonna have to bring up this whole ... you know. Chad: They have an app. At least they do in the Google store, the Google Play store. Yeah, the Google Play store. Joel: Do they? I didn't ... you know. They could have it. My research was fairly light, as it always is. Chad: Like your beer. Joel: So if they do, I apologize. If they don't, yeah, we'll get to the bottom of it. Chad: Okay. The next Google piece of news was Google Insights, Work Insights and it's pretty cool. It's Google analytics for work or it could be Google analytics for your lack of work. It's kinda like ... Joel: Why are you looking at me when you say that? Chad: Big Brother. I didn't have to look at you. Big Brother with these new analytics tools, because it actually shows how you're using the G Suite of products, if you're collaborating, if you're using them, I mean, all these different things. I see that it definitely would show workforce efficiencies, productivity, those types of things, and help better understand who is and who's not, but one thing that I was thinking about is that now Google, or Hire by Google, is part of G Suite. Joel: Yes. Chad: So recruiters, you better get your shit together. Joel: I mean to me, if you're a young person getting in the business, you've been using Google for how long? This is such a natural, organic sort of extension of your life. Google is just in such a great position right now in this sector and they're doing all the right things from what I can tell. Chad: No question. They're starting to plug and consume all these different APIs coming from Cloud. Again, in the workforce space, it's gonna turn more into a business space, which is exactly what we need. Joel: Yeah. Good job, Google. For the win. ZipRecruiter? Chad: ZipRecruiter. Dropping paper, bitches. Joel: This is funny. So we already know ZipRecruiter is everywhere. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You can't turn on a TV, you can't listen to a podcast or a radio show and not hear or see something from ZipRecruiter. This is even one notch up for them. Announced this week, if you're a podcast listener or even if you're not, you probably know about a podcast called Serial, and not what you eat in the morning but like murder and stuff. Chad: Yeah. Joel: One of the most popular pod ... the most popular podcast in the world, like 175 million downloads since it started a couple years ago. Chad: Crazy. Joel: In season three. ZipRecruiter is the presenting sponsor so they're on the site, they're at the beginning. Basically the whole show is just a ZipRecruiter show outside of the murder and stuff. They are launching ... they're launching like little stories about employers and how they use ZipRecruiter, like little mini stories with each episode. Probably dropped a lot of coin to do this. It's also a testament to the impact of podcasting, I guess. Good for them. But yeah, if you're sick of hearing ZipRecruiter, sorry, you're gonna have to deal with them a little bit longer. Chad: Well, I mean, I listen to ... I have about 40 podcasts that I'm subscribed to and some of my favorites, like Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History, Pod Save America, that entire series, and they get crazy amounts of downloads, they all ... all of them had ZipRecruiter one in some form or fashion in the ads. I guess what I have to say to the recruiting industry is do we need to send up a flare or what? I mean, seriously. This is ... You can hear all sorts of ads on podcasts so for ZipRecruiter to be just about the only ... I really don't know that I've heard any others on podcasts, it's like what the hell guys? I mean, other than our podcast, obviously, but we are specific. I mean zoned in laser into our industry, but man, this is the new wave. Do your research, take a look at how podcasts are exploding. I mean this is fricking crazy. What are you guys thinking? Joel: So full disclosure, right. We have had conversations, or at least a conversation, with ZipRecruiter in regards to sponsoring our show. Chad: Yes. Joel: Now, they declined and that's perfectly fine. Our numbers don't really compete with some of the shows that they are spending money on. It was a little bit out of their wheelhouse with a non-consumer type program, but yeah, we'd love to see ... again, ZipRecruiter was not at HR Tech, correct? Chad: Yeah, yeah. They were walking. They were walking, much like Google was there and they were walking. Yeah. Joel: So ZipRecruiter has this great brand and they're doing great things, but they've been a little hesitant to embrace the recruiting community and I, like you, I think I'd really like to see more of some of that. But if not, screw it, they are counting their money and it's all good. Yeah, it would be nice to see a little bit more engagement from those guys. Chad: Right now- Joel: And the recruiting community. Chad: Right now and it's evident because of, again, you talk about consumer. They're trying to hit job-seekers. They're looking for critical mass. They're just trying to get their name out there and to be quite frank, we keep talking about Indeed and Google and worried about Google, but ZipRecruiter is on that other flank and they're attacking too and I really believe that ZipRecruiter is in a much better position long-term than Indeed is right now. What do you think? Joel: I don't know. I don't think either of them are in super great positions. I still think they're in a bad position with the big three, Facebook, LinkedIn, Microsoft, and Google. I think they'll be an acquisition target or they're gonna go public at some point. We've mildly talked about Facebook coming in and gobbling them up, which could happen, who knows? But in terms of which one would I rather be, I'd probably rather be Indeed just for the fact that they have a global presence, more so than ZipRecruiter, but who am I? Chad: I just think they're a huge threat to that base. They're obviously killing it on the SMB side of the house and where are they gonna grow? Where's the next level that they grow? They grow on the enterprise side. Joel: I will give them this. They have probably done the best job of growing that business through traditional advertising, whereas Indeed did it through SEO, let's be honest. ZipRecruiter has done a fantastic job of being anywhere and everywhere all the time and it's worked for them, because the small business that doesn't read blogs and doesn't listen to podcasts like ours, they want to tune in and see, oh, here's where I post my job and if they get results, they keep doing it. Chad: And here's the thing, ZipRecruiter's experience is just this, you post a job and ZipRecruiter's programmatic piece along with the algorithm brings back qualified candidates, or semi-qualified candidates. This leads into the next story. It's pretty interesting. This deep learning site is masquerading as a career website so using ... I believe they're using TensorFlow Google deep learning to be able to focus on delivering more qualified candidates. Not a shit-ton of candidates because recruiters don't need a shit-ton of candidates. They need the right candidates. I think that's really where ZipRecruiter, they are spending tens of millions of dollars and we also saw the growth of their location in Israel, right, in Tel Aviv. Joel: Yep. Chad: That is machine learning and AI and R&D. Boom, that's it. Joel: Well, they're doing a lot of the right things and we'll see how this shakes out in the next couple years. You're obviously really bullish on them. I am too, maybe less so. But dammit, good job for ... I'm just jealous of Serial for getting ZipRecruiter money. Chad: I dig it. I totally dig it. Again, it validates podcasts. I mean, not that we don't already because we're sold out sponsorships, but it really validates the medium and it's just good shit, man. Joel: Good shit. Do you want to talk about Domino's and tattoos or do you want to close it out? Chad: I had no clue about this, but I think we'll go ahead and ride this wave. Joel: Oh, let's talk about this. Let's talk about this. Okay, so Domino's in Russia. Chad: Oh shit. Joel: Where everything normal happens, they offered 100 free pizzas a year for 100 years to anyone who would get a tattoo of the Domino's pizza logo on their body. Chad: Anywhere? Joel: The rules and regulations aren't in the story, but I'm assuming generally visibly anywhere. I guess the bottom of your foot didn't count. Joel: So the Russians, as Russians do went nuts about this and so many people began getting tattoos that Domino's had to call off the promotion. Chad: Dude. Joel: About 350 people have qualified for free pizzas until the end of their life basically and they've all social media'd this shit. It's hilarious. There's actually some pretty interesting artwork with integrating the Domino logo, but yeah, they are done giving away free pizzas and I just thought that was funny. Chad: Dude. If they did that in the United States I know for a fact every military personnel that's out there would go out and they would get ... because there are some of the best tattoo artists right outside military installations, they would go get those and they would just totally shut down the Domino's system. Joel: I'm not even gonna bring up or start with the Millennials. Chad: They won't get tattoos, there's pain. Joel: Bullshit, have you seen ... Anyway. We out. Chad: We out. Stella: Hi, this is Stella Cheesman. Thanks for listening to the Cheese and Chad podcast, or at least that's what I call it. Anyway, make sure you subscribe on iTunes, that silly Android phone thingy or wherever you listen to podcasts and be sure to give buckets of money to our sponsors, otherwise I may be forced to take that coal mining job I saw on Monster.com. We out. Joel: Jets 14, Browns 0. #DHI #RigZone #Dice #Facebook #Diversity #Careerbuilder #AR #ZipRecruiter #SerialPodcast

Chad & Cheese run down last week's HR Technology Conference in Vegas, nothing but raw post-game analysis. What sucked and what ROCKED! NOTE: Remember kids, Vegas hangovers suck but that's the kind of shit we do for YOU! TOPICS: - Pitchfest - Start-up Pavillion - Worst & Best booths - HR Tech booth dichotomy - Monster v Careerbuilder compare and contrast - Where was LinkedIn, Facebook & Google? - 7 security guards vs. 1 Ward Christman? Enjoy, and visit our sponsors: Sovren and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps businesses find qualified candidates with disabilities for their job postings. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Welcome to the Rehab is For Quitters episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's Most Dangerous. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm still drunk. Joel: Nice. On this week's show, we're wrapping up the good, the bad, and the ugly from HR Tech in Vegas last week. We're talking big takeaways, hot companies and trends, and our favorite, whisky and cigars. Chad: Wahoo! Joel: Someone pass the Pedialyte. Sovern: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now, based on that technology, comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job, and just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster, and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human, you'll wanna take it to dinner. Chad: Yes, or give it a shot of bourbon. Joel: That's right, that's right. Sovren is not messing around. They're on the warpath. Chad: Yes. Joel: I saw at least four different bottles, I think, of whisky that they were passing out the shots at the show. Anything goes in Vegas. Chad: Oh yeah. And so, we were actually pulled over to take shots of Maker's Mark. And that, it was during, was it before? I think it was before the pub crawl. Joel: Yeah, so pub crawl for those who weren't there, and a lot of our listeners were not, they did a pretty creative thing. Instead of having a bar set-up, you went to different booths with alcohol and it was, from what I remember, a pretty good time. Chad: Yeah. And they had them spread out all the way through the conference so you could hit this booth for beer, this booth for some fruity drink or some shit like that. It was really cool. I'm telling you right now, every conference should have something like this. It was wonderful. Joel: I don't even think Sovren was on the official pub crawl list. They just took it upon themselves to pass out liquor to people. Chad: Renegades. I love these guys. Joel: Renegades. Chad: Fucking renegade. Joel: And they're really mad about the whole AI thing. We're gonna do something with them. Chad: Yeah? Joel: They're calling it, I think, Black AI like Blackhat AI and Whitehat AI or something and how most AI is BS so we're gonna get to the bottom of Sovren's opinion on AI. Chad: Well, yeah. What I think should happen is we should go down to Austin, where they're at, you have a ten gallon white hat, because you have such a big fucking head, and I have black hat, and we just do our thing. Joel: Yeah, and my head is bigger 'cause it has hair on it, by the way. Chad: There's a little bit of that, yeah. Joel: Should we get to the rest of the shout-outs? I think we have maybe a few after the show. Chad: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, for first, first off though, big props, thanks so much guys, Uncommon, Emissary for carting our asses along with them through HR Tech. Wouldn't have been there because HR Tech said "Screw you guys, you're not getting media passes." Joel: Yeah, big thanks to those guys. And our sponsors, who were front and center - Chad: Yup. Joel: Of the show. Chad: Amazing. Joel: They were everywhere. Chad: Yup. Joel: And certainly, sponsoring our show got 'em to that point, obviously. It had nothing to do with the talent, or the technology, at these companies. I'm talking, JobAdX, who customized tee-shirts for both of us, by the way, I'll add. Sovren, who we touched on, whisky shots. Talroo was there as usual, really good presence from our sponsors and shout-out to them. Chad: Yup, Uncommon was there and not to mention, JobAdX actually spent more money to be able to get the tee-shirt size that you needed. So I thought that was pretty awesome of them. Joel: It is an extra 'cause when the guns are out dude, ya gotta have a little extra fabric on that sucker. And you got such groupies over at Uncommon, apparently. That's fun to say. Chad: Well, it's pretty cool that, so Emily Wares, I came up to the booth, just to check out, have some conversations with Teg, and it was awesome. Emily was there and they're like "Hey, this is Chad," and she's like "Oh, I know Chad" and she wanted a selfie and I just thought that was really cool that she was geeking out over meeting me. Joel: Yeah, I can't explain that one at all. I don't - Chad: I don't, either. But thanks Emily. And then also Megan, over at gr8 People, who was frickin' awesome. She tagged us on the tweet and we went over and had another picture with her so that was really cool. So, yeah, no, thanks to gr8 People, Megan, and all the peeps over there. Joel: Shout-out to Doug Berg and his team at ZAPinfo. Not a sponsor yet, hopefully one day. But he was on the Firing Squad and according to his team, his presence on Firing Squad resulted in a breaking of the dam, in terms of business and money coming in. Chad: Oh, come on. Joel: So, hat's off and shout-out to ZAPinfo. Chad: Well, that's sweet. Well that being said, Vervoe, our first Firing Squad, we went out and had drinks with Omer. And so yeah, another, not a sponsor but we got all these different companies who've been engaged or have actually worked with, collaborated with Chad and Cheese Podcast. It was fun to meet all those guys. Joel: We touch so many lives. So much love on this show, it's hard to take. Chad: It's a bad touch. It's a bad touch. Joel: And thanks for feeding us, Monster and HiringSolved. I crashed the Monster dinner, you got an official invite which is crap. Shout-out to those guys for keeping us fueled with dinners, we really appreciate that. Chad: Yup. Joel: Very nice. Shout-out to more of our fans, Danielle at Beamery comes to mind. Chad: Yes! Joel: But just a number of people that mention the show, recognized us, whatever, was really cool. The fact that this show touches some people is awesome and we appreciate the love we got at the show, for sure. Chad: And we had a beer with Ed from Philly. Joel: Yeah. Who, as he highlighted, doesn't need help finding friends. Chad: He does not need help. Joel: He's doing just fine on his own, yeah. Ed that was awesome, that was awesome. Philly. They're playing the Colts next week, by the way. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They're in Philly, I think. So anyway, that just popped in my head. It has no relevance to the show, but, yeah. Chad: Philly looks like shit right now, my god. Can you buy a fucking kicker in the NFL today? Joel: Dude, don't even get me started. Carson Wentz is back next week, though, so that'll be interesting. Chad: Thank god. Thank god. So last shout-out, unless you got more but I want to start into another bigger discussion, Ward Christman and Larry Cummings for inviting us to the HR Tech Collaboration Zone. So the big conversation around this is, it seems like HR Tech, they carry a sledgehammer with them and anybody who comes near the conference, they just whack-a-mole, man. Ward was escorted out of the Venetian. He was in the Starbucks, which was outside of actual conference itself, by seven security guards. What the fuck is that all about? Joel: I don't know. There are pictures - for those who don't know, so Ward runs an organization association kind of thing, and HR Tech, the organization has not been very congenial to them. They've not been real welcoming to us as well, although you and I are not been getting escorted out of Starbucks. Chad: Yet. Joel: Yet. Yeah, Dorcey's maybe, which is one of the bars there. Anyway, that was crazy. If you wanna go to like, Twitter, if you follow Ward, Facebook, even LinkedIn, he's got pictures of the cops. It's pretty interesting. Yeah, who knew that HR was such a cut throat, beat 'em over the head business. Chad: It's not, that' the fucking problem. I mean, this is a people business. It's a software business, not to mention, I mean, HR Tech is really like a shark, right, when it comes to conferences. And Ward and some of these other smaller ones are kinda like pilot fish, you know what I mean? And they're there and it's not that they're bad. I mean you can go through life very nicely being one of those pilot fish, right? But HR Tech, I mean, it's like, yeah you can't do anything. It doesn't matter if we're doing it or not, we don't wanna collaborate and we're gonna hit you with a sledgehammer and seven security guards. That was ridiculous. Joel: Yeah, history's not real kind to organizations that do those kinds of things, so, I for one are rooting for a little bit more balance in the conference sector. Rooting for the ERE's of the world, the TA Techs of the world, the Unleashes of the world, to balance this thing out 'cause maybe HR Tech has a little too much power at the moment. Chad: Well and balance, we talk about balance. It was really weird because it's been a while since I've been to an HR Tech. It seemed like there were no practitioners there. I mean, in comparison, it was like there were really no practitioners there compared to the amount of vendors that were there. And I kept asking the vendors, you know, is there really a conference where you guys connect with practitioners at all, and they're like, "Oh yeah, no." This is about partnerships, or nothing because really, the practitioners are very few and far between. Joel: Yeah, which is another reason why, you know, keeping the press out is stupid because these vendors want coverage, they want to talk to people that write stuff, they want to talk to the social butterflies of the industry, and you know, keeping them out just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But yeah, I agree there weren't a ton of practitioners and there were, they weren't very vocal or visible. Chad: It was pretty nasty. It was pretty nasty. Joel: Whomp-wah. Can we get to the show? Chad: Sure. Joel: Alright. First thing's first. I don't know. What do you wanna talk about? Chad: Well let's go with, let's start with Pitch Fest. So, I mean, Pitch Fest was interesting and the production was really cool. The stage, and you know, it was funny 'cause Tim Sackett was like the first MC. He does a great job but it's hilarious. Tim is like the face of SHRM right now. And, come one, ya know. Love the guy to death, but come on. You gotta - Joel: That's the bow tie. The bow tie had me. Chad: You gotta find a much better looking face to be the face of SHRM, guys. Joel: Ouch. Chad: Love him. Give him a big hug. But yeah, he's not the best looking guy in the world. Joel: Dude, he's our Indeed jail informant. It's all good. Chad: But we still love - Joel: Tim's all good in our book. Chad: We love him. Joel: We love him, for sure. Chad: So, Pitch Fest. Five minutes, okay. And they had so many of these start ups doing Pitch Fest. I mean, five minutes, first off to me is ridiculous, 'cause you've got three, I think it was three minutes, to pitch and then you only had two minutes for Q&A. So, that's not enough time really to evaluate anything. I mean seriously, especially HR technology. So, yeah, I thought it was like they just had too much and it was almost like how many start ups can we get into this? And then let's try to crunch the time as much as we possibly can. It just, from a value standpoint, somebody who is listening, I think ten minutes, minimum, should have been where they started. Joel: Yeah, I think the 15 minutes our death match contestants will get is much more viable then the minimal time they got there. However, there's something to be said for elevator pitches, right? I certainly didn't see all the pitches, I don't think you did either, but what were some of the start ups that stuck out in your mind. Chad: Yeah, that's a good question. So, Jane.AI, I went through one of their demo's and I thought that was something that really stuck out. You know, a lot of the other ones were really our sponsors because I want to find out more about what they were doing, so you know obviously JobAdX and Uncommon. I didn't - Joel: Uncommon were great. Chad: Yeah, I mean they're launching some shit here in the new, ya know, few weeks, or month or so that I think is gonna be pretty amazing. But yeah, there were so many chat bots. To be able to have conversations around just that in itself was a full day's damn work. Joel: I'll add, I'll second the ones that you mentioned, as well as I'll throw in Disco. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: What was interesting, and this would be a major take away from me is that I think we're sorta seeing an app 2.0 resurge, so most listeners will know about obviously iPhone/android apps, Facebook apps, essentially building stuff on other people's platform. To me the next wave of innovation is sorta being built on Slack. Slack, as many people know, the messaging service for businesses, both Disco and Jane.ai are built on Slack, and they've grown through that platform. We talked to Monster, which I guess we'll talk about the next break, but they're also dabbling in the app ecosystem. I'll save that for after the break. It's very evident that that platform is gonna be a hotbed for new companies going forward, and I think we're just seeing that now at this year's Pitchfest with Disco and Jane.ai. Chad: Yeah. I think Slack...that was how there business has been built. It's like look, we don't want to build all these apps. We might acquire them, who knows right? But to be able to build them doesn't make any sense, so just leave the power to the people, give them the APIs, give them the tools and let them go and build. The thing is though, from risk standpoint... we talked about this a long time ago with Gary over at Tweet My Job before it was bought by Career Arc...that when you base your business off of somebody else's platform, when they change rules, you could be screwed. You could be done with your entire business model if they change what they're doing. And we also saw that on the SEO side with a lot of aggregators. So yes, it's incredibly cool and if a system like a Slack continues to work in that current business model, that is perfect. But if they're actually acquired and that changes, again, there's just risk. There's risk in any business but that's a big risk. Joel: Huge risk. Yeah. Some listeners will remember a company called Branch Out which basically built its whole business on Facebook's platform, and when Facebook changed the rules, the company went into the proverbial shitter. I assume BeKnown by Monster they're dabbling on Facebook had a similar ending. LinkedIn has changed their API over the years. Facebook continues to change it. Yeah, you're basically a sharecropper. It's a sharecropper situation. When it's someone else's land that you're farming, don't be surprised if they kick you off or change the rules on you. Slack, to their credit, probably will change the rules, so move forward with caution when you move to platforms. Joel: But I think for the immediate future, Slack has a real advantage if they open things up and grow the business, and hopefully don't change things too much for folks. I do actually think that Slack's API gives the company the power to shut off specifically certain apps. So IBM, if they use Slack, they can individually turn off an app from being on their own platform, but you still remain on Slack So they may do stuff a little bit differently from like a Facebook because they are so specific to this space, but yeah, move forward with caution. Joel: What were some other takeaways from the show that you got? Chad: Well first off from what you just said, you could turn from sharecropper into a sharecrapper. Joel: I think you pulled that one at the show and I booed it as well. Chad: No I did it at dinner and everybody loved it except for you. So I actually went around from booth to booth on one of the mornings I was there early... I think it was the last morning I was there early... and I wanted to take some time to look through and see how these companies were actually spending their money. So I'd like to talk about some of the really cool booths and then some of the bad booths and why they were bad. You wanna do that? Joel: Sure. Chad: So, not to pimp our sponsors out, but I do believe that Talroo had a really good booth. It was a big footprint. I mean it was expensive, don't get me wrong. They had leather couches, you could chill and you could charge your phone you could just kinda chill with your buddies. You could do work, but you could charge your phone in their little consoles, and that was really open, inviting... and that's the kind of experience I would want somebody to have with my brand. What do you think? Joel: Yeah, Talroo was great. I think, for those who didn't go, the front of the expo hall was where the big players are, that's where Career Builder drops their load. That's where the startups sorta want to get noticed and make an impact. And then as you go back into the expo hall you get to the 20x10's, the 10x10 booths, the kiosk island with startups that had just a little kiosk to show people. What stood out to me on the booth, two things stood out to me in the expo hall. Number one is apparently chat bots are for real. Apparently the whole automation messaging thing is gonna really be a thing because the two that stood out to me were Mya and Olivia/Paradox. Paradox in particular looked like the monolith from 2001. It was like this big thing coming out of the ground with no windows, there was like one entrance to the thing. But when you went into it, there was stations to work and salespeople, so that stood out to me. And Mya was a very similar big presence at the show. Joel: I tend to like the underdog. My second takeaway was go to the back of these things, go to the nooks and crannies and the corners that don't get the high traffic. The back of the bus so to speak is where the fighting is going on, the passion. The actual founder is at the booth, the CEO is there...they're finding the ground war, the guerrilla war that the other companies aren't. So I got a kick out of going back to see Good Time who's also Firing Squad alumni. Textio was back there, some companies I've never heard of and probably never will hear from again, Happy or Not, the company where you slap a smiley face or a frowning face in regards to how you feel. To me those are the companies that are interesting just because they're fighting that good fight and the people that usually started the businesses are the ones that are actually in the booths. Chad: It's funny because Olivia had kinda the monolith set up, but it was really like the antithesis of Talroo's set up. Talroo was like it felt inviting, come on, engage with our brand, where Olivia was more like stay the fuck out unless we invite you in. That's how it felt, right? And not to say that they didn't have... cause they had an army of people that were actually there who were nice and sweet, but still it's all about that brand and building that brand, and that is what some of the actual booths felt like. It was walled off... I understand there's kinda like this secrecy, what's in there kind of a thing, but yeah that's not what I got from it. It just wasn't warm and inviting at all. It was really cold and stay the fuck out. Joel: Okay I guess we can differ on that. I had no problem with what's inside strategy. It's like a private club kind of thing, what's behind the velvet rope. You didn't have to be invited, you could just walk in. It's hard to be noticed in a sea of booths, that's why companies buy like the overhead to hang from the ceilings, they can be seen. Like Paradox, it was like a house in the center of the exhibit hall. So we can disagree on that. I guess the final verdict is the companies themselves and how they did with that strategy. For me it's like the kiosk, the ground...that to me is interesting. The companies that will eventually be at the front of the expo hall to me is where the action is. Joel: Another takeaway for me for sure was business is good. Money is flowing, companies need solutions, unemployment is down to just bare bones. It's a good time to be in the employment industry. And you and I have seen at least two each downturns in the business and most people are saying in the next two to three years we'll see another dip, but for now man the party is on and it's a good time. Chad: So when you're Oracle and you have this huge like Starbucks...it's not even really a booth, it's like a Starbucks right? And Oracle has a shit ton of cash right? But still they're spending the cash. Cornerstone is hanging donuts off the side of the wall right? It's like what makes people happy? The aroma of donuts in the morning. Grab a donut, get a coffee. I mean it was crazy, cool shit. And Jobalign I would say gets an honorable mention because they were just a few rows back from Career Builder and they were on Main Street. I don't know how they got there cause you know they didn't pay the high price, but sometimes you gamble and they got some amazing placement. Chad: But my best overall was Clickboarding, an onboarding platform. Never seen these guys before in my life, but they didn't spend a lot of money at all. They didn't do the Oracle, ADP stuff. What they did was they bought a double sized booth and they made it really cool. It was kind of inviting, kind of the faux wood, corrugated steel, it had a seating area, a little bar action. It was cool and it was something that again, it was one of those things where you gotta take a look from a marketing standpoint. Do you want your brand to feel cold and steely or do you want it to be warm and inviting? There was really a dichotomy between the two, and that's really what you saw. You didn't see an in between. You saw either really cold and steely or it was just kinda cool, chill, come on in and let's talk. Joel: Pretty sure that's the first time the world steely has been used on the podcast, so drink to that one. And you used it twice. And yeah if Elvis is still alive, he was at the show because I saw at least two or three Elvis impersonators. Joel: And by the way can I just real quickly... I thought this was really cool. So you mentioned Oracle. Chad: Yeah Joel: So the actual badge that you had around your neck has a little whatever thing. So the one that Oracle had is actually a charger for your Android or iPhone, and I thought that was awesome. It's an actual functional badge holder or strap or whatever it's called. So shout out to Oracle for that or whoever came up with that. That was good. Chad: I have one last thing on the booth scenario is my why. Why...and I love these guys, I love Shaker and I love NAS... but why do they have booths? Why do they spend money when they really don't have technology and they could use that money to send more people to shake hands, kiss babies, gather intel, and develop partnerships? Joel: Or sponsor podcasts? Chad: Or sponsor podcasts? Now TMP has TalentBrew right, so that was really their brand while they were there, the whole thing was TalentBrew. So it makes sense to me on that side of the house, but on the Shaker, NAS side of the house, yeah man, spend that money, you know more...don't do a damn booth. Joel: I will end my whatever from the show with it was a lot about who wasn't there. A few companies that should have been were not, or would regularly be there were not there. I will note that Glassdoor was not there, which to me helps support the thesis that Indeed is just gonna suck them up and eat them alive, and there won't be a Glassdoor brand at some point in the future. To me that was sort of telling. There was no Facebook, there was no LinkedIn, there was no Google, who are the three companies that we talk about the most, couldn't even give a shit to even be there. So that stood out to me as well. Chad: Tarquin was there. He was walking around and we actually missed each other. We were gonna have a beer or coffee or something, so he was there. Definitely, again, he didn't see worth or they didn't see worth in spending stupid amounts of cash on a booth, but in some cases, they were probably there just walking and doing business a different way. Joel: Microsoft was there interestingly. There were- Chad: Two booths! Joel: Yeah, two booths. So that was...Microsoft but no LinkedIn. Yeah that was interesting to me. Let's take a quick break and talk about Augmented Reality, Career Builder and I guess, Monster. Chad: Sure. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of or it's the PayPal of, maybe better Facebook of?" In many, many cases, these comparisons fall short of being close to reality, or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. In the case of Job Ad X, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google Ad Sense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, persistent, and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. JobAdX: As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs and staffing firms real time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost pair impression, click or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending wastes. We're not set in regrets. For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates to the best of programmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. JobAdX: We also provided publishers and job boards higher rev share than other partners, through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30 to 40 percent greater and more through our scalable model. To partner with us, you can visit or search jobadx.com or email us at joinus@jobadx.com to get estimates or begin working together. JobAdX: JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK, too. Chad: Amit did really well on the pitchfest stage. Joel: He did. I want to say he almost made it to the end. I don't know if any of them made it, their whole pitch in the three minute time period. Chad: Yeah, it's ridiculous. Joel: Yeah. You would think like the firing squad would prepare companies for the pitch, but no, that was tough for them. Chad: But with two minutes of Q&A, you kind of think like, "God, I got to cram more shit into my pitch, because I'm not going to be able to get it out there in the Q&A." Joel: Yeah, I get it. I get it. Okay. You have a great insider quote. Chad: Yeah, so the reason why we didn't talk about the Career Builder booth, was because we're going to do a segment on Career Builder and Monster, kind of a compare and contrast of the old guard and how they, how we see them today, especially after an HR Tech. So it's hilarious. Instead of me just ripping into them their booth, and when I have two practitioners, which probably were the only two that were there, who actually gave me quotes. This is one, and I'm not going to say who it is, because you'll know in a second. Chad: "Why in the fuck would Career Builder waste money on a 50 by 40 booth at HR Tech. So sad. Like the dude with the tiny penis who drives a bright yellow Corvette" Joel: This is our fan base by the way. This is who we attract. Chad: But a practitioner. But a practitioner at a director level, let me tell you. Practitioner number two, again, very high level, said jokingly, "Next year as an encore to this year's 'experience', Career Builder will be lighting $200,000 cash on fire in their booth space." Joel: Now, that I like too. That I like too. I was talking to an agency person, who I will not name, who compared and contrasted Monster's sort of booth with their mentality. Chad: Ah, okay. Joel: And I think you and I will agree on the Monster side, because we interviewed their CEO, Scott Gutz, which if you can edit that thing, will go live here at some point. But there is humbleness, a humility, in the Monster higher ups that's pretty refreshing. Like I think they really understand the brand's been in the mud for a while, they have a really high mountain to climb to fight off Google, Facebook, Linkedin, etc. But there's a real humble mentality there and I think that came through in the booth. Joel: The booth was very tempered, it was creative and it stood out. Chad: No, it did. It did. Joel: But it wasn't over the top by any means, and this is a company that in the past has had actual semi-trucks in the exhibit hall to put their stuff up, and have had multiple squishy Monster dolls and giveaways. Chad: Right. Joel: Like this was a really toned down company, and I think it represents or reflects their business going forward. Career Builder, my contact mentioned, was like, he doesn't think they understand what's going on in the market. Like, they don't understand, they still think, my comparison is they're sort of like Dan Gilbert, the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers, right? Like even though the world has shifted, Lebron has left, the dude still kind of is tone deaf around the fact that they can't compete any more, that's it's all about super teams, it's all about, a different landscape. Chad: Yes. Joel: But they're still sort of in the, they still believe like they're number one. Chad: Right. Joel: Their shit don't stick, they're the top dog. And it's that sort of hubris that you and I have seen through the years really destroy companies. And this really gaudy, ridiculous booth, sort of highlighted both the company as well as just sort of the idiocy of the show, while they're laying off and tons of people are leaving, they're spending buckets of money on a really fancy booth at this show. So that was some commentary I thought was interesting. Chad: Yeah. And again, as we talk about closed off booths, versus open booths, there was a huge difference. One was much bigger than the other one was, but Monster really was focusing on their people and trying to get their people engaged with the industry, the industry professionals, right? The vendors, their partners, so on and so forth, and they were doing that at high leadership levels. Hey, these are our people, meet our people, talk to our people. That I thought was cool, versus something that's really closed off, walled off and was a big video game. Chad: I went through the experience, because I thought, if I'm going to talk about it, I want to go through it. And they, very gracious, they knew exactly who I was, they didn't punch me in the face or anything like that, even though they probably wanted to. And went through the experience, and it was a big video game. Right? And then as almost an afterthought, after the video game, I pointed over to the corner, where they had monitors set up, and I said, you know I was on my way out, and I stopped myself and I said, "Hey, are you guys demoing product?" And they were like, "Oh, yeah. Would you like to see that?" Chad: Well, fuck yeah, I would. That's the big difference here, okay? Is that the video game is not the central point of what the focus should be here. And maybe they just want to get me the fuck out of the booth. That could have been it, right? But I went over, did product demos with a couple of different individuals, and they were incredibly professional, they were very smart, and they answered the questions. Whether I liked the answer or not, it doesn't matter, right? Chad: That's the problem. That should be the focus. That should be, and that's been Career Builder's problem for years, is they're not focusing on the right stuff. They're not being able to pull their products together in something that people understand and selling it to the market that way, they're focusing on stupid shit like video games and Pokemon Go for jobs. Joel: Which, I think we'll save for this week's show. Chad: Yes. Joel: So we'll save that. But yeah, I think the dichotomy of Monster current, current state of Monster and Career Builder is very telling. And I would also add that Monster's booth was filled with execs, like the people with C in front of their title, was there. Chad: Yes. Joel: And they wanted to talk about the future, and where they were going, and they were very humble. Career Builder was the sales force. Irina, their new CO was supposed to, was alleged, was probably there. I didn't see her or meet her, there was no effort to like, "Hey, can we set a time aside", which Monster did, which I thought was great. But yeah. I wish we could have talked about the differences in like Google's booth and Facebook's and da da da, but for the purpose of the show, those were kind of the two big ones that we have to cut, compare and contrast. Chad: Yeah, yeah. That's what we had. And again, big shout out to Monster PR. They reached out to us, and then say, "Hey guys, we want you to interview and have conversations with Scott and Chris Cho, their chief product officer, so I mean it wasn't us, trying to bang down their door. They were coming to us because they again, are open. We're seeing so many different brands that are closed off. Joel: Amen. Now I will say that Monster taking the Career Builder trend of colored Chuck Taylors, was a little bit troubling, because Career Builder has moved on from that. But you know, that aside, yeah, props to Monster for the direction that they're going. Chad: And we out. Joel: We out kids. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcast, so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. Tristen: They made me say that. Tristen: The most important part is to check out our sponsors, because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive shiny gold pair that are extra because, well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Monster #Careerbuilder #HRtech #Microsoft #Clickboarding #Emissary #Uncommon #TalentBrew #TMP #Shaker #NAS #KRT #Talroo #Vervoe #ZAPinfo #JobAdX

Meet Torin Ellis, one bad MFin' diversity bad ass. Buckle-up kids it's about to get lit up in this Nexxt Exclusive podcast! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies find talent in the largest minority community in the world – people with disabilities. Chad: This, the Chad and Cheese Podcast brought to you in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit tatech.org. Chad: Okay, Joel. Quick question Joel: Yep. Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates or your texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah. I know. I call it our Pavlovian dog reflex to text messaging Joel: Yeah. That's probably why text messaging has a frickin' 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: They're crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why the Chad and Cheese Podcast love Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: Love it. Chad: Yeah. That's right. Nexxt, with the double X, not the triple X. Joel: Bom chicka bow wow. So if you're in talent acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI, that stands for return on investment, folks, and because this is the Chad and Cheese Podcast, you can try your first Text2Hire campaign for just 25% off. Boom. Chad: Wow. So, "How do you get this discount?" you're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell them, Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You go to ChadCheese.com and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long url to remember. Just go where you know. ChadCheese.com and Nexxt with two X's. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: It's time to do this. Joel: Ho ho. Chad: This is Chad Sowash. Today we're going to be talking to Torin Ellis, diversity strategist, published offer. You might have heard him on SiriusXM Radio. He does a little contribution there. Torin's all over the place, man, but he is a diversity stud. Torin, say hi to the listeners, man. Torin: Ah, that big good morning. We like it. We like it. We like it. And I absolutely appreciate the both of you for giving me some time, some bandwidth. Let's jostle a little bit and have some fun. Joel: Torin, this is Joel Cheeseman, the cohost of the show. We're meeting for the first time. The name Torin is not a common name. Is there a story behind that? Torin: No, it's not. Actually it's a Scottish name and it mean's king. And my mother, when she was 18, a lot of people told her that she nor her children, because they were kind of clairvoyant and they figured she'd have multiple kings and queens, and so that said that "Neither you nor your children would be successful." You got to understand that I grew up in a time ... I was born in a time where a black man could not swim in the Atlantic Ocean. I'm talking about a pool in a community. I'm not talking about the YMCA. I'm talking black people could not swim in South Florida in the Atlantic Ocean. And so a lot of her instructors told her that she would never successful. And she said she would start naming der firstborn with a name that had power, and so it means king. Joel: Was that some undo pressure on you, though, to be a king? Torin: No, not at all. Absolutely. I felt like ... First of all, I didn't know what it meant until probably 20 years old or so. But no. No pressure whatsoever. I mean, my mother and my father were incredible role models. They were incredible parents. And so they just raised me to be human, if you will. They raised me to try to respect the law and follow directions and do the best that I could. And so that's what we've tried to do. We've made a couple of mistakes, but we're here now. We're good. Chad: Well, today we're here to talk about diversity. We talk about diversity. A couple of angry white guys, as you'd like to call us, talk about diversity on this show. Torin: That's right. Chad: And I thought, let's get somebody who really gets down deep into diversity and let's really ... let's get into the scrum on this one. Let's talk about what needs to happen, what is happening, and all the bullshit talk that's happening out there. So- Joel: Can I interject- Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... because I'm a newbie in this diversity thing? Torin: Yeah. Joel: I'd like to hear a definition of diversity from someone who is really knowledgeable about this. Torin: Oh, it's real simple. For me, it's bringing unknown resources, people, things together and not being afraid to be married, if you will. And just think about that. I don't need a complicated academic definition. It's about just bringing things that are not necessarily normal to be together, bringing cultural insiders, cultural outsiders, bringing them together, and not being afraid to be "married" professionally, socially, communal, if you will. It's bringing stuff together. That's it. Joel: Got it. Chad: Getting away from the old, generic, boring bullshit and trying to spice it up. Joel: Flavor. Chad: Right? Joel: Absolutely. Absolutely. Chad: Right, right? I mean- Joel: Yes. Absolutely. Chad: ... diversity of thought. I mean, we talk about backgrounds. So it doesn't matter what kind of background. But we talk about trying to bring that diverse thought in. In most cases, the way that you get that diverse thought is from an individual who is nothing like you, doesn't have the same kind of opinions or ideas, or maybe, in some cases, there are obviously some common grounds. But how do you really excel in being able to drive diversity? And that's always been my thought. Torin: Well, and, again, when you take it like that ... So I use the phrase cultural insider. On your side, Joel and Chad are cultural insiders, both white men. Chad: Yep. Torin: I'm the cultural outsider in this conversation, yet we are still grooving already. Two, three minutes in, we're already in our flow, getting that mojo, and we're about to make an incredible conversation come forth. That's what I'm talking about, just bringing it together and not being afraid to do that. Now, on you all's side, there's still a difference in who you all are. Chad is different than Joel, vice versa. But together, there is a little bit of cultural outsiderness, if you will. But for the most part, you all are cultural insiders. Bringing the two together, outsiders, insiders, and making magic happen. Chad: So why is it so hard? I mean, we got three guys get on a mic, right, and we start talking and we start the flow, right out of the gate. And you have this sharing of ideas and opinions. Why is it so hard for companies to be able to really grasp this? They talk about it all the time, but we aren't seeing it in the actual numbers. And I know we don't talk about benchmarks or for hiring percentages, but it is important to understand the actual composition of a workforce to understand whether you really are diverse or not. Right? Torin: No, absolutely. And I think companies have struggled for a variety of reasons. Too many of them have had demoralizing results. They've had fatigue of conversation. And, honestly, Chad, that's because a lot of them have had faulty plans, bandaid-like tactics, if you will. "Let's kind of show up at this one event." Just one. I mean, there's 15,000 events that a person can go to. Let's just do one of them. Well, that's what I call a bandaid. Companies have struggled because they've had drips of interest versus that full-throttle effort. There's absolutely no way that for whatever software, 2 point whatever, whatever, whatever, you would kind of half-ass go at it. You would put your entire team on it to make it right. Even though you may deploy a version that's not 100% ready, you're not going to leave that lack of or that gap of closure out there in the marketplace. They're going to have their team fully on that, trying to make it right. Torin: So that full-throttle effort has been missing inside a lot of organizations. Oftentimes, people like myself, strategists and consultants and trainers, we go in and we go in with a punitive conversation around leadership and white men, if you will. And shit, nobody wants to get beat down on like that. So, I mean, that doesn't necessarily bode well for bringing about progress. But most of all, what I think is really missing from most of the work that's being done. And mind you, when I do diversity strategy, I'm not doing it for bias training or unconscious bias training. I'm not doing it for anything other than I'm looking at the recruiting lens. I'm looking at how do we build high-performing teams, and not absolutely feel like recruiters and sources on the vanguard of incredible organizations. We are the frontline, if you will. And so I do my work focused on them. Torin: The main reason why I feel like companies have struggled is because for the last 10, 15 years, if you will, it's been more of a social imperative versus as business imperative. And people like myself, if you will, have not necessarily done an incredible job of connecting the value of diversity to the organization. They have not connected the value of diversity across the chain: hiring, training, and advancing employees, procurement, product design, and marketing. We have missed that particular piece. And so I think that the reason why me and my team are successful is because we get away from ... We don't discount the social side of it, but we focus more on the business side. Joel: Torin, you touched on technology a little bit. And Chad and I, it's a common topic for us. And there are subjects around programmatic recruiting where AI and machines are sourcing candidates. Or you look at virtual workspaces and how companies are sort of expanding and not having headquarters. Or sites like Upwork where the value of a worker is based on their reviews and what people that have worked with them or they've done jobs for review them. And it has less about, say, color, creed, religion, et cetera. Are you optimistic about the technology, or is it more of a band-aid and something that is not covering up the real problem? Torin: I am optimistic about the technology because I feel like this gig economy that we're in provides access for more individuals to participate. Now, certainly, there are some levels of pause for me. Pause in the sense of whether or not these freelance or consultants, if you will, are being compensated and treated the way that they should be treated. I'm really about humanity. I'm like 1,000% in ... Let me say it this way. I care as much about the candidate as I do about the company. And if I had to take my choice, I'm going to always side with the candidate, even though the company is the one that pays me. I just feel like we should do right by people. Torin: So I am optimistic in the sense that technology can extend the border. It can put a different perimeter around people and their ability to pursue opportunities. But I also take pause in the fact that if we don't have enough underrepresented individuals in the rooms that are creating this technology, then these technologies are going to exclude us on a continual basis going forward. And so I do want to see platforms like Upwork and other organizations, if you will ... I do want to see them have underrepresented talent, people that are black and brown, people that are differently-abled, people that are from different religious and political backgrounds, if you will. I want to see a variety of diversity building the technology so that all of the touchpoints don't leave people out. If that makes sense. Chad: That does. Is it a good amount of this actually based off of just the basic job description and how they've been written over the years and all the different requirements that really aren't requirements that push out different groups? Torin: I mean, you can say that. But in my time, see, I've been recruiting since 1998 on my own. I have never ... and I mean this, I can say it without any apology. I have never shared a job description with a candidate because I don't care about the job description. I need to understand from the hiring manager, what is it that you really need in this individuals? And while some people may not ... And the reason for that is because when I worked at MCI, I wasn't the best writer, if you will. And I actually missed out on a couple of promotions because my writing skills, according to the center director, were not up to par. And so the job description for me is, while it's key, it gives me a bit of a guide, a sense of something to go by, I don't see that as being what's pushing people out. I know great companies like Textio, and TalVista, and others are doing some work around optimizing job descriptions, if you will. And I most certainly appreciate that. I absolutely do. But I feel like the job description is just but a part of the process. The cog, for me, is the hiring manager. It's that human to human contact. That hiring manager is a problem. Chad: And I agree, but here's the problem. We start talking about technology, we've got an entirely different conversation because you're not going to see some of those candidates that would be coming through because the technology's actually based off the requirements of the job. Torin: Correct. Chad: So therefore, the filtering mechanism comes in place, and some of those individuals that you might drag along for the ride aren't going to be there because they're going to be filtered out by this AI. And that's why I'm saying the actual base. Torin: That's correct Chad: The actual base of the information being used on the technology side of the house for AI, machine language, whatever the hell we want to call it, is going to be that job description and the requirements. And if those requirements are really just all bullshit, okay, there are some that are in there, yeah, here and there, we definitely need to have certifications here and there, but they really don't need to have a master's degree or a bachelor's degree or who knows, and these are different requirements that have been thrown in over the years, really just to filter out people. What happens then with technology and how do you consult companies to be able to really look through their entire strategy from the ground up? Because this is really part of the ground up scenario, right? Torin: It is, and again, just in how you described it, it underpins and reinforces the need for diversity and inclusion inside of our organizations... Chad: Yup. Torin: And it's needed inside of every point along the value chain as I illustrated in the beginning of the call. And so whether it be the company that is building the technology that you are using as an ATS, whether it be the technology that you are using to do background screening, whether it be the technology that you are using to do the first level of contact with a particular candidate, it doesn't matter, that technology needs to be built by people that are diversely representative of the populations that we are going after. That's Number One. Number Two, our teams need to be diverse, our sourcing teams should be diverse, our recruiting teams should be diverse, hopefully our hiring team is going to be diverse, and all the way up, and that mitigates if you will some of that technology may be screening out talented individuals, maybe hiring managers exercising or leveraging their bias in the recruiting conversation. The more diversity we have in the process, hopefully the less we will experience if you will this unnecessary screening of talent. Torin: I have a really good friend a couple of years ago who was looking for a job and he reached out and I can't remember the company, not that it's important, but he actually called the manager after the posting had been up for maybe a week and a half, two weeks, not a long time... the manager told him, he said, "Listen, I just pulled the trigger." Probably a month, I'm sorry, Chad, he said, "I just hired someone because I got tired of going through the resumes, more than half of them were bullshit... Chad: Yeah! Torin: And so he said, "I just got tired of going through them. Had you called me, had you called me, I guarantee you, I would have interviewed you. I guarantee you you would have probably been in the top two or three." And so I just understand that the technology is but a part of this particular process, and Joel, what I have always said to people is, people do the best job of hiring people. I appreciate the technology, but I don't believe that any tool is going to outperform me in my ability to make a great decision. Joel: Let me switch gears from technology for a little bit and talk about government. Where is government failing, where is maybe government doing too much? One example that I can think of in a short time in the background check industry is the Ban the Box issue. Should employers be able to ask about criminal records or are they a felon, etc. What are your views on government in terms of what they can do or maybe where they're over-reaching in the diversity issue? Torin: So let me just say that we have something in the neighborhood of 70 or 100 million offenders or ex-offenders running around the country right now. Many of them, a largess of them, are for distribution if you will, non-violent crimes. I firmly believe that we should have Ban the Box type legislation in every single state. I firmly believe that. Ban the Box legislation, I think that the only time that should be an issue is for somebody who has experienced a violent crime and even then, we really evaluate that on an individual and case by case basis. I think that we can do a better job of understanding if you apply the human touch, some common sense, a few great questions, a background check, perhaps a review of a person's prison records if you will, I think we can get to a point where we can say, "This person is one that we can bring into our organization with limited access or limited exposure, limited interaction," but I don't feel like it should be a person checking a box because I've served some time and now I'm non-considered for almost any type of employment. I think that that's just an absolute waste if you will, so legislatively, we should put a Ban the Box piece in every state and then, as employers, we should operate with discretion. Chad: So don't you think this is the time for that, right now? We have such a crunch, the new numbers came out, jobs over 200,000, under 4% unemployment, this is the time, I'm talking to companies right now, all the way through, they're having problems finding talent. We're seeing surveys coming out where recruiters are saying this is the hardest it's ever been for them in 20 years or what have you, in trying to find candidates. This is a workforce, that again, they need to put a roof over their family's head, they need to put food in their families' mouths, these are individuals who might've done wrong, but goodness gracious, they've done their time, isn't this the time, right now, to make this happen? Torin: It's absolutely the time, and again, we can't have it both ways, and I say "we," I'll use "we" putting myself in a variety of different disciplines and roles, if you will. We can't have it both ways, we can't keep them from applying and being able to secure employment and then on the flip side, get mad when...we just can't do that. And it's not necessarily working for us. The phrase "war for talent" comes into play, whether it be us talking about felons, or whether it be just in general, we've been saying the phrase "war for talent" for twenty years, twenty. Twenty years. So how played out is that? That's absolutely played out when we know we have a contingent of capable individuals that are lingering on the sidelines, ready to get in the game, ready to play, but we have these rules and these perceptions that are keeping them from playing. 70 million jobs, an incredible job of employing offenders if you will. So I think that now is definitely the time. Joel: I want to stick on government a little bit, or at least politics. I couldn't let you go without just asking the current state of the country -- on one hand, I feel like it's as divided as ever, and on the other hand I feel sorta like, maybe it's energizing a group that wouldn't have been energized otherwise, and bringing issues to the forefront that maybe wouldn't have been, had we not had such a volatile leader of our country. I'm curious about your thoughts on diversity, just politically, immigration...Is Trump bad for this, or is he good for this? I guess is what I'm asking. Torin: I absolutely feel like he's bad for this. And let me try to answer this non-politically if you will. If you're going to fight against immigration, when we have immigrants that are killing the business market right now, killing in a good way, slang, vernacular, I mean doing incredible things. Then why are we cracking down on immigration the way that he's doing it? Why not crack down on the people that are hiring the immigrants? Why are we not doing that? If we're going to do this, let's just do it the right way, not once again these Band-Aids if you will. So I'm going to get the person from Honduras and Nicaragua and other countries that are trying to get away from harrowing opportunity or things that are just putting their lives in danger or their economy or family in danger, but I'm not going to go after the guy who's hiring, the woman that's hiring them? That absolutely makes no sense. Torin: There's certainly a better way for us to do all of this, and when we look at how many immigrants have come to the country and started organizations that are hiring tens of thousands of individuals, hundreds of individuals, when we think about countries right now that are copying all of the work and technology that we're doing over here, I just feel like we can do a better job of this from a governmental standpoint. Chad: Feels like blunt force trauma in some cases. It really does. So I'm going to kick back to the business side of the house. In some cases, where I'm dealing with some of my clients on the veterans side of the house, it's interesting because ... I want to get your reaction, whether it's kind of parallel to what I'm saying... everybody wants to hire veterans. That's all there is to it, I want to hire veterans, I love it, but yet: you talk about that one event. "I went to that one event, and you know what, it just didn't work out for me." Not to mention, it was a free event, and then they're always looking for these free resources, and..."free" is not a strategy, obviously. But what I'm seeing or what I've seen over the years, in most cases, not all, is that companies will not commit. They will say that they are interested but they will not commit by actually putting budget and resources to that specific problem. Are you seeing that in the diversity community overall? Torin: Absolute window dressing. There is no reason, none whatsoever, why we are still 50 years after legislation, basically having the very same conversation. It comes down to skill versus will -- Chad: I love that! Torin: And I have said that probably since 2012, "skill versus will." I can stand on a stage and talk about Chrome extensions and technology and I can do all of those great things but if you don't care about doing diversity, if you don't want to go the extra effort, then it's not going to happen. Skill versus will. Let me tell you, inside of the book Blue Ocean Shift, I don't know if you're familiar with that book, but there is a case study in there for Citizen M Hotel. And really what they did was, they said, "We're not going to continue to try to compete against people that are in our space, the Red Ocean strategy, we're going to look at new ways of doing it because there's a lot of room in the Blue Ocean if you will." Torin: And so what they did, and they were actually quite successful in transforming that stagnant, low-profit mid-range slice of the industry into really a high-growth, high-profitable affordable luxury room. And the way that they did it, they really just did a survey. They said, "Why is it that people are going to luxury hotels? Is it the room, is it the price?" Torin: And people are like, "Hell, no, we're not trying to pay more money to sleep! That's not the reason we are going to a luxury hotel, five-star hotel. And they went down this checklist of all these different things, and it really came down to three things: location, comfort of their sleep, and the third one is surprising but it was the quality of the water. Like, can we get high pressure, great shower in the morning? You know? Can I sleep well in the evening? So they said, we can do away with concierge, and we can put kiosks in, and we can do all of these things that are not necessarily costing us a lot of money. We can restrict or constrict our lobby size, and we can add more room if you will to the rooms, we can add more amenities to the rooms, make the experience better, and people will come to our hotel versus going to the five-star hotel. Torin: When it comes to diversity, they have been window-dressing, man, they have been fighting inside of a Red Ocean. Everybody says this tool is good, so everybody wants to use this particular tool. Everybody says that this is best in class, so now we want to do this best in class. I have an incredible client, probably one of the most talked-about clients this week, and when we first started working together in 2017, they said to me, "Torin, we want to best in class." And to make the story short, I said, "You don't need to be best in class, you need to be your best. Your organization is far different than the next organization and the next organization. Let's figure out, let's do the forensics to figure out what's necessary to make your organization the best that it can be." And you know what? You're not going to achieve results if you're not committed, too many companies are not committed. Chad: And stop looking for that damn silver bullet because it doesn't exist-- Torin: No fairy dust-- Chad: It's a strategy and you've got to go at this from the ground up and look at programs, all the way through, so yeah, man, I totally get that. I love the "Skill vs Will." Torin: That's right. Joel: Torin, I love that Chad hit on veterans, and that's sort of his sweet spot, and I think that, from my perspective, I think diversity for a lot of people is a color issue. When I think of it I think more and more of people with disabilities, I think of ...elderly folks, which are a lot of people, the Baby Boomers that are aging. They're being sort of displaced because they're thought of as not being tech-savvy enough or not having the skills. Talk about those two segments and what kind of advancement are we seeing. Are we way behind the eightball with disabilities and elderly versus maybe some other segments of diversity? What's going on there? Torin: We are. We are behind, but the bottom line is we have to do better, if you will, in terms of being interested in it. Again, going back to the skill versus will, let me just touch on one thing, Joel. The reason why diversity has been so much referenced as a color thing is because we've allowed corporate heads and the media to construct that narrative over the last 30 years. They've made it a black versus white thing. They've not allowed it to be a very blossomed definition of diversity, where it includes the different genres and groups that you just previously mentioned. Torin: Yes, I do believe that color is important because I feel like a person from a different country is going to add a different context to the conversation. I absolutely believe that, if we are sitting in a strategy meeting or a discovery meeting with hiring managers, and one of the managers at the table is blind, we're going to have a different conversation around what's needed in the person that's being hired. Just by the mere fact that he or she is blind at the table, the conversation is going to absolutely change. Torin: I think, for organizations, if you really understand and subscribe to the fact that we have a plethora of job openings in technology, we have job openings in manufacturing, we have job openings in healthcare, job openings in the trucking industry. Even though autonomous vehicles is the rave right now, we still have job openings. We have job openings across the board. We must become, I guess, more willing to embrace a more expanded definition of diversity. We must also not be afraid to consider the positive ramifications of adding color to our environments. Let's face it, you put black and brown people in any environment, that shit is going to pop off and be good anyway. Chad: I've got one more question. It might end up being more. Torin: Yeah. Chad: When you and I first started talking, you'd said that you'd listened to a couple of shows, and you asked me one pointed question that actually caught me off-guard. You said, "Do you get asked if you guys ... Do you get called 'angry white dudes'?" And I was like, "No, no, we don't." And then you told me a story, and I want you to tell that story. You remember that? Torin: I absolutely do, and the reason I asked you that question is because I'm a prophet. No, for real. Seriously, the role of the prophet is not to comfort the king or the leader, but to challenge them. Every once in a while, you have to ask questions. You have to go into conversations that could be considered uncomfortable. Chad: Yeah. Torin: Even in that uncomfort, we both get to grow. We had a great first conversation, even though that was one of the things that I asked. I asked it in reference to a conference and you all's style on the radio and all that good stuff. I'm saying to you that, if I was to do a show the way that you do it, there would be a variety of people that would call me an angry black man. Torin: I was just at SRSC in Austin and did my presentation, and I did the presentation in an hour, bringing people through slavery and Jim Crow and segregation and black laws and all of that, through Barack Obama, ending with Donald Trump, which is where we are right now. In a brief three minutes or so, I used that illustration to kind of say we've been really having this conversation for 400 years. 400, not 40, but 400. Chad: Yeah. Torin: There is absolutely no way that you can say that black and brown people are lazy, that hiring black or brown people is lowering the bar, that you cannot find black or brown talent or differently abled talent or veteran talent or women talent that are prepared. That's the tone of my conversation. You got to understand, when I got my feedback, there were three people, three. There were like 15 comments in my feedback, but three people called me an angry black man. Joel: Wow. Torin: Why? Why am I angry? Because I'm telling the truth? Chad: Yeah, yeah. Torin: I'm telling the truth. Nothing that I said was not true. But I'm angry to you because you don't want to face the truth. Chad: And these people are supposed to be the enlightened people of HR recruiting- Torin: That's right. Chad: -and want diversity, but yet they can't take a basic history lesson. Torin: They can't take it. Chad: It doesn't matter if it was fire and brimstone or not. To be able to take that, and that's what kind of threw me was to actually put in your comments "angry black man," no, I've never had somebody call me an angry white man. Torin: That's right. Chad: You saying that, and Joel and I come off, I'm sure, a hell of a lot more course than you do. That just shows, that demonstrates the bullshit that you have to work through. Torin: Absolutely. Joel: Well, thank about Sheryl Sandberg's book, "Lean In." Chad: Yeah. Joel: Talking about she doesn't want women who take leads to be called bossy or bitchy. They're taking a leadership position. Chad: Yep. Joel: I think women probably face a similar bias as African-Americans and Hispanics and others that people like Chad and I just don't ever have to deal with or think about. I think it's great that we're getting enlightened, more recently now than ever before probably with even the Me Too movement, with females and the African-Americans. Trump is bad obviously in a lot of different ways, but I do think, in a weird way, he's shone a light on how we're more alike than we are different, if that makes any sense at all. Torin: It makes a lot of sense. What I absolutely said, or I think as we rounded out that conversation, Chad, I just simply said that I try to encourage people, even though I'm not a trainer. I'm a strategist. Even though I'm a strategist, I try to help people with vernacular, if you will. I try to help shift the way that people think about what it is that's around us. Torin: What I said was, we need to get away from saying "black on black crime." We need to get away from referring to Chicago when we start to talk about whatever as it relates to the black population. We have these things that are happening, if you will, and you don't ever hear "white on white crime." You don't hear folks talking about the mafia and the mob up in New York City. You don't hear that. But you hear, without any reservation, somebody will say, "Well, those black people, you're not like them." Well, what does that mean? What does that mean? Chad: Right. Torin: That's not a compliment to me. I don't want you to tell me or my children, "Your children are so well-spoken." What the fuck do you ... Joel: Yeah. Chad: Articulate, right? Torin: Yeah, articulate. Chad: How many times have you heard that shit, right? Torin: I don't want to hear that. That's not a compliment. You may see it as a compliment, and I'm not calling you racist or anything. I'm just correcting you. Just accept the fact that I'm correcting you out of love. Those are not compliments. They're not terms that we should be using on a regular basis, especially if we're not doing it broadly. If we're only doing it for one group of people, then we're probably being a bit discriminatory, prejudiced, and we could be borderline racist. I want to try to get people away from that. Joel: Well, Torin, we appreciate you actually taking time, coming on the show. If people want to learn more about you, what you do, where can they find you? Where can they get in touch with you to actually get some real movement into their diversity hiring? Torin: Well, first of all, let me just say thank you again. I appreciate the both of you for giving me the space. Three things that I want to leave people with, it's important to note that one culture is not defined by or mutually exclusive to any one group. Number two, centering around people in the recruiting process tends to mature based on the actions, the conversations, and the scenarios that are presented and pursued. Number three, ethnic, geographic, and workplace demographic shifts are happening right now. The years that are important are 2019, 2030, and 2040. If you want to know more about 2019, 2030, 2040, or anything else that I've said, you can find me on all of social media @TorinEllis. Chad: Or you can go to his website, TorinEllis.com, and look at some really cool-ass videos. Torin: And hopefully it'll be a new site up next week. By the time this goes out, I should have a new site up. Chad: Sweet, sweet. Joel: Go check it out. Thanks, Torin. Torin: I appreciate you guys, absolutely do. Chad: Thanks so much. We out. Chad: Okay, okay, okay. Before we go, remember when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing? Joel: Yeah, you know all about reflexes. And then I brilliantly tied it to text messages' 97% open rate. Then I elegantly, elegantly tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh, Chad. I can be elegant. Can't I? Chad: Whatever, man. I know it's redundant. You already heard about Text to Hire, but you're still not using Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: What? Chad: I know, man. Joel: Come on, man. Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again, this was all by elegant design. It's all about Text to Hire, and it's all about Nexxt. Joel: An elegant design. Go to ChadCheese.com. Click on the Nexxt logo and get 25, yeah, I said 25% off your first Text to Hire campaign. Chad: Woo! Joel: Engage better. Use Text to Hire from Nexxt. Two exes. Chad: Booya! Chad: Thanks to our partners at TA Tech, the Association for Talent Acquisition Solutions. Remember to visit TATech.org. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy, Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit ChadCheese.com. #Nexxt #Diversity #Veterans #DisabilityHiring #TATech #BadAss

It was just a matter of time. After a 14-year run, Matt Ferguson is no longer CEO of CareerBuilder. The boys share the details and there opinion about what's next. Also: - Upwork goes IPO - Recruiters like it rough? - Tattoos! - and surveys galore leading up the HR Tech conference in Vegas ....wait, are the boys talkin' tech at all? You bet your ass we will! Enjoy, and visit our sponsors America's Job Exchange, Sovren and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPT sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad And Cheese Podcast. Joel: It's an after hours episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, welcome to the Chad and Cheese Show, a weekly round up of all things recruiting. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: With his bedroom voice. On this week's episode, Career Builder dumps their CEO, Upwork heads to Wall Street and recruiters officially don't like it rough. Stay tuned. It's way past our bedtime. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of," or "It's the PayPal of," maybe they're the Facebook of. In many, many cases, these comparisons fall short of being close to reality or even a useful illustration of what organization actually do. JobAdX: In the case of JobAdX, our example is so acuate, so spot on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google ad sense for jobs. That's means we're an efficient, persistent, smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs and staffing firms real time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. JobAdX: All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regret. For direct clients JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficiency and premium page ad position. We also provide publishers and job boards higher rev share and other partners through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30 to 40% greater and more through our scalable model. To partner with us you can visit or search JobAdX.com or email us at joinus@jobadx.com to get estimates or begin working together. JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. JobAdX: Oh and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK too. Chad: We're sitting down at HR Tech with Tim Hawk and we're gonna get a shorter ad. Joel: If they win this pitchfest thing it might be a three hour ad. Chad: No, that's not gonna happen. Chad: Oh yeah. Uncommon's gonna be at the PitchFest. We got people. Joel: Yes. Yes. Chad: We got people. Joel: Dude, clearly sponsoring this show is a fast track to the big leagues, without question. Dude, my one year-old is interrupting my football time and it's disruptive. So for those listening we're recording at night. We typically do it in the morning/afternoon. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So who knows where this episode will go? Chad: Good god. Joel: But I'm drinking. I know you probably are too. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: It could get fun. So let's get to shout outs. Chad: Okay. Our listeners probably know Joe Shaker, President of Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Well people, well Joe is a dad with a little boy. Joel: Joe knocked up his wife for the third time. Way to go Joe. Chad: God. So congratulations to the Shaker family again. They just had a little girl about 18 months ago. I think it was a little girl, right, 18 months ago? Joel: Yup. Chad: I'm in serious doubt Joe knows how this whole baby things happen. Joel: He is a Wisconsin graduate. Wisconsin graduates, you know, aside from cheese and beer, they're not too bright. So we may have to alert Joe as to what's going on with this baby machine that he's got going on. Chad: I think we might have to do a public service podcast for all of our listeners for the birds and the bees. I mean come on. Joel: Chad and Cheese sponsored by Vasectomies R Us in the Chicago Metro area. We love to joke. I've got a shout out to Emissary. Emissary.ai , sponsoring my trip to HR Tech. Going to HR Tech next week. Hopefully a lotta people are listening on the plane. Emissary check them out. They'll be at the booth. I'll be wearing a t-shirt and pimping that hard. Emissary.ai shout out. Chad: Yes and they actually sponsor my beer habit ,so you continue to send beer to me guys. I really appreciate that. Gonna give a shout out, big shout out to Uncommon who is carting me along with them and will be at the PitchFest. So if you're going to be HR Tech, check them out in the start up like alley that they have set up. And then also during PitchFest. Joel: I got Teg to agree that if they lose the competition, he takes on Aman from Canvas in a cage match at TA Tech, later this month. Chad: What is up with you and all of this violence? Joel: Aman texted me last night. He probably texted you too that we had to get together and I sent him a Three Stooges gif of them slapping each other so I guess I don't know what it is about Aman. He's such a nice, peaceful guy. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I'm gonna give a shout to, I'll let you do Maverick. Chad: Okay. Joel: I'm gonna do a shout out to Great Lakes Brewery out of Cleveland Ohio. Anyone from Cleveland or the area will know Great Lakes Beer. It's delicious. For whatever reason, they haven't been in Indiana. A beer friend of mine said it's because there's too few distributors in the state, blah, blah, blah. It's finally here. I'm drinking one now. Shout out to Great Lakes. You're gonna make my winter a lot more bearable. Chad: Yes. Thank you so much but thank god even better beer down here in Central Indiana. Maverick. He said his dad actually wanted to name his brother Goose, which I'm going to call bullshit on. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Gonna totally call bullshit on. His mom said no because his mom knows Goose dies and that's never a good idea to name your kid after a character who actually died, especially in the dramatic fashion in which Goose does. Job Board Doctor, he said that we've been talking too much about Google. So to all of our listeners out there. Joel: Bullshit. Chad: We challenge, if there's something you see, a great topic, a great story, article, go to Twitter, share it with us, hashtag Chadcheese. If it doesn't suck we'll talk about it. But if it sucks like the one that the Job Board Doctor just sent us then we're not gonna talk about it. Joel: But this is a great sort of side note. So we see the listenership and we see the numbers and you guys love Google, Indeed. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Facebook, LinkedIn. We talk about these companies because it's what you guys want. When we drop something on Purple Squirrel, nobody cares. So we're gonna keep talking about the companies that you guys care about because we want you to listen to our show. Chad: Yes. And everybody's knows that now since, thanks to Uncommon and Emissary, we're going to be at HR Tech, you might ask yourself how to find us at HR Tech. Well first on Tuesday afternoon, we're gonna be at the HR Tech Collaboration Zone pre shindig thing, so if you're gonna be there and you wanna have some time with us, bring us some beer, that's cool. We're gonna be talking about Googly shit, AI, whatever people want to talk about. Chad: Also, you can download the HR Tech Collaboration Zone app. That's a too long of a damn name. They've gotta shorten that shit up. Or just find us around the hall. We're gonna be everywhere. So look for us, hit us up on LinkedIn, Twitter, all that other happy horse shit. And Ed from Philly needs HR Tech friends people. He went out and sent something out on Twitter today. We wanna help him out, so. Joel: What? Chad: So search #chadcheese on Twitter, find Ed, link up with him for beers at HR Tech. I'm definitely having beers with Ed because he's Team Chad, you know that. But c'mon man, network, make friends, drink beer, find us and let's have a good time in Vegas. Joel: Should be a good time. I only know my schedule because Chad manages my whole schedule. So that was news to me what we're doing and I'm sure there'll be more things added. But yeah, I'll be around, Chad'll be around, hit us up for drinks especially and it should be a good time. My last shout out reminder, TA Tech. Chad: Yes. Joel: September 26 through the 29th. Chad: New Orleans. Joel: I believe. New Orleans. Death Match, Allyo, Uncommon, Talk Push, who am I missing? Allyo. Uncommon. Canvas. [crosstalk 00:09:18] Yeah I got em' all. Talk Push. Should be awesome. We're gonna break shit, crack necks, and cash checks. Chad: Not only that, there's a party at Pat O'Brien's. If you've ever been to New Orleans, you've probably been to Pat O'Brien's. If you have, you wanna go back. If you haven't, what the fuck are you doing? You gotta go. So come to TA Tech, New Orleans, we'll have a great time. There are some awesome freaking talent that's talking. It's much a different kind of environment than HR Tech. It's more intimate and generally the people that you want to be able to connect with are gonna be in that room. Joel: Chad, do you know what happens after a night of hurricanes? Chad: I don't know. Joel: It's a morning of [sound of baby crying]. Had to do it. You ready to get to the show? Chad: It's fucking bullshit. Joel: Alright, so the coup de gras of news happens this week. Chad: Yes. Joel: Career Builder finally, I don't know how long we've been predicting it, let go their CEO, Matt Ferguson, 14 years at the helm. Chad: Yep. Joel: Put him out to pasture, made him executive, whatever. Chad: Chairman. Joel: Which is just a nice way to say thanks for your time, hang out for a little while and then go whatever the hell you're gonna do. Big news. Chad: Yeah, no. Big news. Joel: We knew it was coming. Chad: During our August 10th show, we actually were talking about this and I think both of us actually said, I think it's pretty simple. Apollo's gonna put their person in, whose is Irina and that's exactly what they did. She was the COO, kinda saw that happening, kinda felt like Matt was gonna get booted sometime soon and it was fairly simple. Joel: He's been around since the acquisition, which is a little over a year old now. They conveniently announced this the day after Labor Day, when no one was paying attention. [crosstalk 00:11:12]. This is really interesting, I'm gonna get a little bit conspiratorial here, but Fast Company was the first media outlet that I saw carry it. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The Fast Company story actually came out before the press release. Chad: Yep. Joel: So someone knew someone at Fast Company and what I found interesting was the headline was, "Career Builder Hire's First Woman CEO." Chad: Yep. Joel: Which totally sounds spun to me. Chad: Well yeah. Joel: Because the real headline is like they dumped their 14 year old CEO for someone whose never been a CEO before. And by the way they're having like sexual harassment lawsuits going on while they wanna show off that they have a woman CEO. So the whole thing seemed very staged to me, I don't know who they know at Fast Company but you know they have friends there obviously. The other thing that I found interesting, so Dice, so go back in time a little bit, Dice, their CEO before what's his name, that's there now. Chad: Zeile. Joel: Yeah, no the new one. The new guy. Chad: Oh. Zeile. Joel: Zeile. Art Zeile, is that right? Okay. So Zeile is like super techy, like has a history of start ups in technology. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So the guys before was a finance guy. He was not an idea guy, he was like you know, I's dotted, crossed T's. So in this case Irina, Come on Irina, was a CFO, or she was an interim CFO, she worked on Wall Street, she's a totally numbers person. And Career Builder's coming at the press release saying they're all about AI, they're all about innovation, blah, blah, blah. But the fact that they brought in a finance person is a little bit, you know, disingenuous to me and I'm still on par saying they're going to continue chopping this thing up, count the numbers, sell this puppy off within the next year or two, and call it a day. I do not believe that there is a new era of innovation coming from Career Builder with Irina Novoselsky. Am I crazy? Am I nuts? By the way, their CIO is an Apollo alum too. Chad: Yes. Yes yes yes. It's definitely a different day, there's no question. The problem with the day is that Career Builder needs to continue to do demolition before remodeling the house, right? That's exactly what's been happening. They've been cutting left and right. They've been on old infrastructure for who knows how fucking long, right? They need to be able to reinvigorate the brand, which I hear that they've got the right people in house to do that. The problem is, they need to be able to stitch together their technology to make that shit happen, and it's really fucking hard when you don't have any engineers to do it. Joel: Bingo. Chad: Right? That's the big problem right now. I see her coming in, yes, no question to cut the corners. To sharpen the pencil. The hard part is, how do you get the right people in the right places to beat Indeed who's kicking their ass in certain, obviously in the revenue stream that they cared so long about. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: Kicking their ass. Then Google gets in the goddamn game. I mean, what are you going to do guys? I mean seriously. You talk about being an end to end system? Well nobody in the market sees you as an end to end system. Joel: Maybe one or two people. Chad: I doubt it. Yeah, and they're on the payroll. Joel: Yeah. You can only count on Google for so much of your technology to make it work. I will add that they have apparently hired a PR firm that at least gives a shit about bloggers and people like us. The former regime, they might answer questions that are shot at them. But there was a real ivory tower sort of feel with the ... They're still there. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But I received the press release from a PR agency. I wouldn't be surprised to see the communications people at Career Builder slowly go away, and rely on this whatever PR firm. Who have been very kind and open, which is a real shock. Because I've been dealing with the old career builder for over a decade. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's sort of refreshing. In fact, I actually have an embargoed press release that I can't talk about yet, but they are going to be making some shots. They're going to make some pitches to the whole AI tech focused initiative. I'm not sold on it. We're allegedly going to see Irina maybe in Vegas. Chad: Okay. Joel: We're going to have to put her feet to the fire a little bit and see what's going on. But I am skeptical to say the least. Chad: If it has Google's name on it, probably. I mean if they're playing, if they're doing an AI play with Google because now they have all the Google APIs going all over the place, okay. I mean, there you have it. The big question is - Joel: I'll tease you with what it is. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I won't give it away. Chad: Sure. Joel: It's a mobile focus. Chad: Oh big fucking deal. Joel: It is not Monster Studios, I will say that though. Chad: I'm on the edge of my fucking seat at this point. Let's just end this piece at least on a high note. I hope actually getting Irina into that position, it will hopefully put this old boys network behind them. They don't need this stupid shit. They don't need this drama when they're trying to do all this demolition and rebuild. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: That's going to be hard enough. I just want to sit back and watch how they do this, because this isn't a build on top of. This is a demolition rebuild scenario. Period. Joel: Yeah. I mean, Ferguson had a definite sort of pledge class president feel to him, and the pledge class president is gone. There's a new leader in town. I think there's been a new leader in town for a long time, but at least figuratively the old regime is I think officially dead now. Chad: Yeah. Well I mean it was an entirely different day. Newspaper deal. He dealt with the AOL and MSN deal. Which - Joel: Head hunter? Chad: Yeah. Which actually, people gave a shit at that point. But Career Builder was printing cash and nobody cared what they spent at that point. Today is a different day. They have a new leader, and these individuals at Apollo, and obviously the new CEO, they care about what's being spent, and we're seeing that. The big question is, when they demo and they build, what's going to happen? What are they going to build on? Joel: I'm only sad that we didn't get to do a political ad for Career Builder to be their new CEO. All right man, I'm tired of Career Builder. Let's hear, get this, a new Sovren ad. Chad: Whoa. Joel: Come back and we'll talk about recruiters not liking it rough. Chad: They don't like it rough? Joel: No. You like it rough, right? Chad: Well duh. Joel: That's what I heard. Anyway. SOVREN: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. Now, based on that technology, comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidates scored by fit to job, and just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates like a human. Sovren, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Joel: That voice is so butter. Chad: I felt like I was around a campfire, because somebody was playing the banjo. Joel: That was great. That was a great ad. Chad: I love it. Joel: How is she not doing voiceover somewhere? Chad: She probably is. Recruiters say they don't like it rough. Tell me a little bit about this. I don't understand. Joel: Oh, this is your story, dude. Chad: No, I've got it. I've got it. Okay. John Holland over at ERE writes about this. It seems as if, for this Monster survey, 62 percent of recruiters say their job is more difficult today than it was a year ago. 67 percent say it's more difficult than it was five years ago. It's like, no shit. Have you seen the unemployment rate? I mean, okay. Next actually put out an infographic which is pretty freaking stout. Joel: Yeah. Chad: That is, it's just focused on the hard to read job seeker. It was a survey focused on that. Their respondents, which were job seekers, 14 percent of the candidates are actively looking. 14 percent. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: 39 percent passive, which means they're not looking but they're interested. 42 inactive. 42 percent inactive. Not looking. Not interested. Get away from me. Dude, why do you think it's harder? Joel: Well my favorite from the story was, 64 percent of recruiters, "Told us they felt they needed to be digital experts to succeed today". Chad: Oh Jesus. Joel: "While 70 percent of recruiters say their organization is keeping up digitally, 64 percent believe they don't have the right digital tools to make the job easier. Another 51 percent say that technology makes it harder to connect with humans". Who are these 51 percent who think technology is harder to connect with humans? Are they on a corner somewhere with a newspaper sign, or one of those arrow signs trying to find people? Technology makes it easier. I can't believe a majority of people think technology makes it harder, or that only 64 percent feel like they, only 64 percent feel they need to be digital experts. It should be like 95 percent should feel like they have to be digital experts. Chad: It should be everybody. Throwing so many numbers around. Almost 60 percent of respondents say that it's more difficult today to get qualified candidates than it was a year ago. 62 percent five years ago. Okay, here's the big fucking problem. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chad: First off, the big problem is, 100 percent of them don't believe that they need to be digital experts. Next, they need to realign their expectations, especially with the job market. Which means they should maybe stop asking for bachelors degrees when it's not needed, and stupid shit like that, right? Maybe start creating gap training programs that build your own talent pipeline, and stop black listing smart people who have ink. Right? I mean tattoos? This is a thing now. "Oh yeah, we're going to start looking at hiring people with tattoos now". I mean, did that make somebody stupid because they went out and got a tattoo? I don't get this shit. Chad: Here's a great story. Here's a great story. As a drill sergeant in the United States army, right? Infantry drill sergeant. You knew whenever we were at war, we needed more troops, so that we had more coming through basic training. They would relax the standards, and they would first off start allowing individuals with tattoos in specific areas, which were on their hands, neck, and those types of things. They would give them wavers, right? This is the same shit. It's like, "Oh yeah. Oh, you are qualified. Oh, I guess that ink doesn't really matter much on how you do the damn job". No shit, Uncle Sam. Joel: Yeah, and women have smaller brains than men do. I mean, what? Chad: Idiots. Joel: Was this a survey back in 1972? I am so confused by this. Chad: Oh god. Joel: By the way, aren't tattoos like a military thing? Who - Chad: They're a military thing. It's just, if they don't show in specific areas, because it has to be professional. Usually the ones on the arms and those types of things, back. But you don't see ones on the hands. But anyway, it doesn't matter. It doesn't mater if they have ink or not. If they have the skill set, they have the goddamn skill set. Joel: Yeah. Chad: The only reason companies are talking about, "Well, we should probably look at this standard that we put in place", yeah. No shit. You should have looked at that back in the 1950s, asshole. Joel: And we're old enough to almost remember the 1950s. Chad: Oh no we're not. Joel: Oh. Chad: Jesus. Joel: By the way. Chad: Yes? Joel: You know what is 100 percent digitally proficient? Chad: What's that? Joel: The machines. Chad: Yeah, no shit. Right? Joel: If you don't want to get your ass kicked by the machines, you might want to get more digitally proficient. Chad: So yeah, at the end of this, the writer actually said, he talks about transformation of recruiting. Recruiting is marketing. It is sales. It's one of those things that, you just don't understand the impact of all those different things. It's funny that we have these discussions now about brand and recruiting and outreach and cultivating talent. It's like, this all happens when? When we have a hard time finding the right people. Nobody gives a shit when the labor market is on the other side, and there's all this talent. Nobody gives a shit about the human beings. It's only when I can't find people that I really care about your feelings. Joel: Yeah. It's kind of about money. Chad: A lot. Joel: That's why this week in front of congress, Google said, "I'm not showing up". I say I because Google is a person. Google, I goes back to this vet thing, man. They play this total game of, "We're tweaking our search to help veterans", and then they give the US government a big FU and not show up to congress. Anyway. That's a totally different topic. Maybe we'll cover it in HR Tech. We probably won't. Joel: Another survey, a lot of surveys this week. When companies save all their big news for HR Tech they just send out surveys. Chad: Yeah. Makes it easy. Joel: Phenom People, who we don't talk about too much. Chad: Ed Newman! Joel: We like those guys, and they got a bunch of money recently. They had a survey, so I'll read through the highlights of that real quick. 84 percent of recruiters lack personal ... Sorry, career sites. 84 percent lack personalization through the talent experience. Shocker. 84 percent. One out of three has a visible and easily accessible apply button. What are they, where are they hiding the apply button? 59 percent fail to articulate employee value proposition. Yeah, okay. 98, let's just call it 100%, do not communicate the status of a candidate's application. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Sixteen percent do not have a career site, which I actually think will go up, because I think more people rely on their LinkedIn thing or their Indeed profile page. I don't think you need a career site anymore, frankly. Chad: You do. I mean, if you're a Fortune 500 company and you're a destination location- Joel: Okay, that's only 500 companies, dickweed. How about the other 30,000 in the U.S., or however many it is? Chad: Okay, dipshit. It's pretty simple. The number one or number two actual page that is trafficked on a website is the career site. It doesn't matter how fucking big or small your company is, if somebody is interested in your product, they might actually want to come work for you, so to be able to say, "Oh, they'll just go to LinkedIn," that's fucking stupid. Okay? You've got to have something there to be able to capture them, whether it's a lead generator, it doesn't matter. You have to have something there. So to see that go up, that would be a bunch of idiots who actually didn't have career sites. Joel: Anyway. You don't need a career site people, because you can just tell Alexa what you want to know and she'll tell you. Chad: Don't listen to him. Don't listen to him. Joel: Why don't companies communicate the status of an application? That's a really high number. Chad: These systems were created for processing the individuals on the back end, not as an experience for the candidates. That's not how these systems were created, and here's the problem. Once again, as we just talked about, nobody gives a shit about the human beings going into a black hole or their experience or any of this shit, until guess what? There aren't enough human beings with the types of skills that you need, and then guess what? Everybody gives a shit. That's why we had this stuff come out and people start talking about employer branding again. Chad: The thing that really blows my mind is that for years, for now decades, we've treated candidates like shit and candidates are customers and they spend money, which means you idiots in talent acquisition who don't get this, you've been negatively impacting the bottom line. One day a CEO or CFO is gonna come into your office, shut the door, and show you that you are putting red ink to their bottom line, you personally. Joel: And you're gonna go. Chad: That's so [crosstalk 00:28:36] Joel: Susan Vitale, if you're listening, Chad and I are coming to iCIMS in a month and we're gonna put your feet to the fire on why it's only 98% and why iCIMS isn't helping move the needle to communicating the status of a candidate as they go through the job search application process. Chad: This should be easy shit for companies who have tons of data, which I believe, I could be wrong, but I believe iCIMS has a ton of data. Joel: Yeah, probably. You know who else has a ton of data? Sponsor America's Job Exchange. Let's take a break and we'll talk about Upwork. AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment, designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women, and minorities and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community-based organizations. Want to learn more? Call us at (866) 926-6284 or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com. Chad: Okay. Joel: Do you remember the 7Up Yours advertising campaign? Chad: Yeah, uh-huh. Joel: I feel like Upwork should have something similar. Chad: Yeah. Upwork. Joel: I don't know how it would work. Chad: Upwork yours. Upwork yours. Okay, no. It doesn't work. Joel: Give Upwork. No, it doesn't work. Well anyway, Upwork in the news. We talked about the rumored IPO, apparently it's official. They filed for an IPO. They have not disclosed how much they're hoping to raise yet. They plan to list on the NASDAQ under the symbol UPWK, that's creative, right? The platform claims 475,000 clients listing freelance jobs and 375,000 freelance workers. Upwork has raised $169 million dollars to date. I think it's gonna be a home run unless they're asking for a ton of money or the valuation is crazy, but this to me is the most interesting IPO in our space in a long time. Chad: Well, and we were talking about this I think it was last week. Good for them. I mean, go IPO and let's see you grow this thing. We'll see. We'll see how it works. You're right. Valuation wise, Upwork is such, I think will be, such a good stock to be able to buy into because as I can't find people, I can turn those jobs pretty much into projects, and I can go to Upwork and find them. I might not be able to find full time people to be able to do a job, but if I break that job into projects, I can do something like that and there are many companies who can do that today, they just aren't focusing on it. Joel: Yeah. I can tell you, I've been using Upwork for my own businesses and my own consulting stuff for quite a while and I can tell you that when it started it was largely a foreign-based, let's call it India, Middle East, Philippines types of worker, or workforce. I could say today there's ... you can just see it progressing into a more like European, North America, it's becoming more and more common that you can find English speaking and North American workers as well as European, so to me, these guys are just scratching the surface in terms of the potential growth globally of what's gonna happen, their target enterprise which we've talked about. I think there's a day very soon where companies hire Upwork managers who just manage the talent base or workforce from Upwork. I think this is a real exciting ... Joel: I'm really surprised that there aren't more people looking to get into this space. You have Fiverr, which is really kind of smaller stuff, but to me, LinkedIn could turn this on fairly easily and really make a dent in that space, but no job board is touching this landscape at all, so to me more or less, Upwork has a moat that no one is trying to conquer at this point. Chad: Yeah. I think you might see Snag be able to start moving this way, maybe not entirely, but you've got to remember they're Upwork's old ... was it CEO or chairman? ... is now at Snag. He's the CEO at Snag. There might be a gravid pull from this, but what I want to be able to see is I want to be able to see these Uber types of apps that happen, and we've talked about, that rate the companies and rate the workers and the actual projects themselves, so you can go in, you can look through their portfolio and you can say whether I want person A, B, C, or D, doesn't matter, boom, here it is and I'm done. Chad: There's no reason why a platform like that shouldn't, couldn't really just make a killing, especially from startups, startups needing that base but not wanting the overhead, jump into Upwork or jump into Snag, make it happen, you're done, you don't have to worry about long term cost. Joel: Yeah, I think they're sort of two different focused. Upwork is the knowledge based worker for the most part. Snag is sort of the I need three waitresses tonight and ... I didn't mean to say waitress like I'm sexist, but like I need wait staff today, they show up. Upwork is like, "Hey, I need someone who understands PR to pimp my new product," or, "I need someone who knows how to develop Android apps." They seem to be two different companies or focuses, but I think the whole idea of like freelance nation, whether it's you show up and flip burgers or whether you work with four different companies around the globe to do SCO for example, that's a thing and it's becoming more of a thing and I think Upwork is hitting it probably at the right time. Joel: In fact- Chad: Or Snag. Joel: Or Snag. Yeah, Snag. I mean, we talked about Pared, we talked about Pared a little bit. There are ... apparently there are quite a few companies that are looking to get in this whole hourly on demand workforce through mobile technology, but yeah, it's an exciting time, which leads me to our next story. Chad: Yes. Joel: LinkedIn puts out its top 50, 25 to 50, startups every year and the usual suspects are on that list. The Ubers, the Lyfts, the whatever startup of the week you can think of is on this. Now, what struck me this year is I was going through the list, I was seeing where they were headquartered. There was actually one company, Halo Top Creamery, who I've never had and a chubby guy like me, I should have more ice cream, so maybe I'll check out Halo Top, but anyway, this company has no headquarters. They are a total virtual workforce. I find that fascinating. Chad: I find it smart. Again, we take a look at the 1950s version of what business is today and we start to just break it to pieces. I mean, why do we need a headquarters? Do we need to have somebody actually physically come into an office and talk to us, or can we rent space every now and again when we're actually having a meeting and trying to do a pitch for a client or go to their location, wherever the hell that is? Chad: Thinking out of the box cutting overhead is big. It's big so why do you need an HQ? I don't understand. Joel: Yeah, and you have these WeWork areas where people can go if they need an office or a meeting or a client, whatever. There are I'm sure local organizations all over the place. Here in Fishers we have a tech hub internet of things where you can pay $100 a month to get a workstation. You can use everything that's there from the printers to the offices to the conference room to the kitchen. To me, it's a really cool world because I work virtually. I work from a home office, and to see that being the future is really intriguing and fascinating to me. Joel: Now, I'm curious to see what commercial real estate is gonna do in a world like this, but I guess they'll adapt. Chad: Yeah, who knows? We'll turn them into bowling alleys again or some shit. I don't know. Joel: You can't turn real estate into AI machines so something's gotta happen with them. Chad: That's a very good point. You know, I don't mind, other than missing football, I don't mind this late night podcasting. It sounds like outside. Joel: I feel like you have a smoking jacket and like a shot of brandy or something while you're saying that. Chad: Yeah. Actually, Julie just brought up a bottle of wine, so that was my key to get off the podcast. Joel: Yeah, a few beers, alcoholic beverages, talking shop, it's not the end of the world. Chad: It's not. Joel: Maybe as winter closes in here in the Midwest it will be a good time to do nighttime podcasts. Who knows? Chad: Winter is coming. Joel: Of course the listeners have no idea what time of day it is, because they're just hearing us talk. All right, dude. I'll see you in Vegas. It will be interesting. If you're going to Vegas for HR Tech, look us up. It should be a good time. We out. Chad: We out. Announcer: This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show, and be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Oh yeah, you're welcome. #Careerbuilder #Snag #Upwork #iCims #Monster #Tattoos #PhenomPeople

The weeks leading up to the HR Tech Conference are akin to a bucket o' crickets. But Chad & Cheese aren't slowing down. This week: - Google launches military veterans job search (not a big story) - Google shows their strategic hand - Nurses respond to text recruiting -- DUH - Is Careerbuilder prepping the Google logo on their site? - Snag shuffles the deck with a new COO and CXO - Japan's Exit quits jobs for you - at a price - Recruitology loves local newspaper - Amazon unleashes an army of tweeting zombies declaring love for warehouse jobs Get ya' popcorn and visit our sponsors: Sovren, JobAdX and America's Job Exchange. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash, and Joel Cheesman, are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Are you ready for some football. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Always a safe bet for your fantasy team. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: O-H. Joel: I-O. On this weeks show, Google shows the military some love, Chad, you'll like that. You can now pay to have someone quit your job for you- Chad: What? Joel: -thanks a lot millennials. And Amazon releases and army of tweeting worker zombies. Yeah. It's about to get a little uncomfortable up in here. Stay tuned. Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticate matching engine on the market, because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how, and why it produced them. And offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching, visit sovren.com, that's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. Joel: I'd the engine thinks like us, it needs some re-engineering. Chad: Yeah. Whenever I hear this ad I think of Westworld, have you watched Westworld on HBO? Joel: I have not. Chad: I always wonder if the androids on Westworld have Sovren logos on them somewhere. Joel: Let's move to shout-outs, shall we? Chad: Please. Joel: Let's preface this podcast by saying, it's a fairly slow week. HR tech is coming up. All the companies like Lock & Load, their PR HR tech. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And by the way, if you're a smaller company, that's probably not the greatest strategy because all the bloggers and podcasters are going to be talking to the big companies, making big announcements. So, if you're a smaller company it's actually a good time, right now, to release some stuff because people like us need stuff to talk about, and that could help us out. Joel: And also, don't want until the week after, because we're all hungover and don't want to talk about anything. So now's a good time, small startup, to drop your news on everybody. Joel: In fact, I think this week we may have more shout-outs than actually news, so let's get to those real quick. Chad: Okay. So Kelly Robinson's son's name, which you asked me on the last pod- Joel: Big fan. Chad: -is actually Maverick. I can't believe that shit. That's a pretty fricking cool name. Maverick Robinson. Anyway, he tweeted us. Joel: Dude, Kelly's the coolest dad ever. Chad: He's got to be. Joel: Name your kid Maverick. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joel: Does he have like, another kid names Goose, and another kid named ... What were all the Top Gun names? Maverick, Goose ... Chad: Goose died. Maybe, Iceman. But I wouldn't name my kid Goose. Joel: Iceman, there you go. Chad: I mean, Goose ... He died. Dumbass. But yeah ... Joel: Give me a break. That's the only I could think of. Chad: So he reached out to us on Twitter, #ChadCheese. You should reach out too, say hi. Say we're awesome, say we suck. Whatever you want. Darren Revell, from RecruiterWEB, giving us some love on LinkedIn. Joel: Never heard of RecruiterWEB, it sounds awful. But yeah. Thanks for listening. That's great. I'm going to give a shout-out quick to Brian Wilson, at JobAdder, he's a big fan of the show. As well as Beth Herman, a big exect over at Monster, who's a regular listener. Beth, and Brian, thanks for listening. Chad: Brian Wilson, he was a Beach Boy, is that the same ... Not the same guy? Joel: Yeah. I don't think it's the same one. Chad: Okay. Joel: Yeah. I don't think the Brian Wilson is listening to recruitment podcasts. Chad: Could be. Could be. Joel: But that'd be cool. Chad: Yeah. Richard Collins, co-founder of ClickIQ, commented about the pod on LinkedIn, this is what he said, "From this side of the pond it's like looking through a small, angry window at the future. Love it. Keep up the great work." Well, Richard, we sc need to make that window bigger, so let's see what we can do about getting some Chad and Cheese live, over across the pond. I think that'd be a good time. Joel: They don't want none of this. Chad: Oh, they want it. Joel: Hung Lee. Chad: Hung Lee. Joel: We're still not sure if that's his porn name or his real name. But Hung Lee talked about us in his weekly newsletter- Chad: Really? Joel: -which I encourage you to get. It's sort of a synopsis of what's going on. But Hung Lee said we were, "The best podcast for breaking news." So Hung Lee, we really appreciate that. Chad: Love it. Joel: Got to get that cut on the show. Figure out the name thing, as well as tap into his brain. Because the dude knows a few things, apparently. Chad: Yeah. So Jen Henley, who was actually on a webinar with us, sent us, or at least she sent me, a handwritten Thank You card. And you don't get these very often, right? The handwritten card, comes to you in the mail, that is class. So good job NAS, love it, Jen. Thanks for being with us on the webinar. Joel: How awkward would it have been if I didn't get a card too? You might be having some 'splaning to do to Julie. Chad: Right. Yeah. Joel: I did get a card, so we're in the clear there. Chad: Good. Joel: Jen, yes, thanks for doing that. I found in my time in the business world, that the best sales people, the best partnership folks, are the ones that are doing the handwritten letters, doing the extra mile stuff. So, cheers to you, Jen. Not if Matt Adam is NAS would ever write me handwritten card, I'd probably pass out because that dude is lazy. Chad: Not to mention, he won't return your calls. Brendan Cruickshank, from Emissary.ai, hey, dude, thanks for sending me some- Joel: Sugar daddy. Chad: -New England craft beer. I had my first Super Mantis double IPA over the weekend, and it was delicious. He sent me like 12 beers, and there was probably like 6 different beers in it, so awesome, man. Love it. Joel: Yeah. That's great, Brendan. Yeah. I'm waiting on mine, by the way. That'd be nice. Yeah. Kyle Hager, our resident millennial. Yeah. He's really mad about the baby crying, and Kyle, you know what I have to say to you for that? ... Chad: Kyle? Yeah, Kyle. We're doing everything we can to get rid of that stupid-ass baby. HR tech, in a few weeks, what we talked about, reach out to us, Joel and I, we'll be there. Joel is going to be sponsored by Emissary.ai. I am going there with the Uncommon.co crew. If you'd like to talk, that's cool. Or maybe, you just want to buy us a beer. We're open to either one. So get ahold of us. Joel: I just want to know why Emissary is sponsoring my trip but you're getting beer. Like, help my understand that. That's really quite a quandary. Barb [Francillo 00:07:33], I think, maybe I said that correctly. She was in a conversation on social media, wants to know about other video solutions out there. Talked about be discussed Monster Studios, and wanted to know about that. One, Barb, thanks for listening to the show. Number two is, Monster Studios will apparently not be released until HR Tech, which is in a couple weeks, so you have to wait on that. Joel: However, I will add that your initial question was, "Is there someone out there, other than VideoMyJob?" And Monster Studios is going to be powered by VideoMyJob, so if you don't like VideoMyJob, you're probably not going to like Monster Studios. Chad: Or you might. It might all be about the brand. Who the hell knows? Joel: Who in the hell knows? Chad: Also, get your ass to TAtech in New Orleans, because Joel and I are going to be there for Death Match. We have four contestants, four startups that who are going to- Joel: Suckers. Chad: -be fighting to be the Death Match champion. It's all between Talkpush, which is Talkpush it. Joel: Push it real good ... Chad: Uncommon. Joel: Uncommon. Chad: Yeah. That's right, Uncommon. Canvas. Joel: AllyO. Chad: And AllyO. That's right. Those are the four. Make sure that you can get there. Joel: I want to see Aman and TEG go at it. I think that would be a fun fight, a fun match, to the death. Chad: Fun match to the death. TEG, Aman, yeah, no. I think they would just kind of sit down, have a beer, and chat it out. Joel: Yeah. And I think we could join that. I think we should join all the Death Match participants for mass quantities of alcohol for after the matches. Chad: I think that's something we need to do. And that being said, earlier this week, we dropped the Uncommon exclusive interview with Josh Zywien- Joel: Zywien. Chad: -from SmashFly. So if you want to talk a little Chatbot action, take a listen. Joel: He tells us what he thinks the next big thing is, so there you go. Chad: He does. He does. Joel: Are we ready to get to the news? Chad: Yeah. You already hit the damn bell Joel: I know. I thought you were going to the news, and you zigs when I was zagging. It's all good. Chad: Yeah. Just like Emerson. Joel: So Google vets, man, this is your lane. Go. Chad: Yeah. So I see this is really just a search upgrade for Google. You know? Yeah. It's all kind of wrapped in this veteran bow, and so on, so forth. It focuses on translating backgrounds, so if you're not well educated on military jobs ... They have stupid-ass identifiers that they use. You're not a "diesel mechanic" you're a '63 Juliette, to '93 Juliette, or something like that. So being able to take those codes and really translate them into real-world jobs, this is something that we in our industry have been trying to do for many different years. And to be quite frank, it just has sucked. I mean, it's either a separate search, or it's not integrated. Chad: But what Google's doing here, is they're integrating this new capability into their search. Their real Google search. And it works on the API, the Talent Solution Job search API, and also in Google For Jobs. So you can go to Google now, and just type in, let's say, for instance, 42A -- which is alpha -- and jobs. So 42A jobs, and it will automatically start the translation process and push you into those jobs. Joel: Have you tested this yet? Chad: Yes. And like most military job translators, it's not great. But I don't think that's the real story here. Joel: Oh, okay. Okay. How many vets do you think actually put in h2o, or whatever it is, and then jobs? Don't you think most would put in "veteran jobs" and go, "Oh, crap. Google lets me funnel that even more." Chad: If they know that it is available, the capability's available, they'll probably try it. But do they need to? They probably, really don't need to. They're being taught as they transition to be able to translate their own skill, so. I mean, again, I really don't think that the news, here, is being able to do this translation piece, okay? Joel: Okay. Chad: You know? I really that it's different on the capability side of the house. And number one, so all enterprise companies, job boards, and staffing agencies who already are using Google's Cloud Talent Solution, didn't have to life a finger to get this feature to go live on their sites. It was provided directly through the API. And it's kind like when Neo, in the Matrix, wanted to learn Kung-Fu. They just plugged it in, and that shit, he was ready. Right? It's the same kind of thing, dude. I think that's the story, personally. Yes. Getting it's all nice and fluffy. Hey, veterans, you can go put in your thing. Joel: Did you just make our first Matrix reference for the podcast? Chad: I think I might have. Joel: Yeah. I like that. I do like that. So I do like the fact that if veterans go to CareerBuilder, and Dice, and wherever -- like all the places that have this functionality -- and put in the codes, and get the jobs. You know? If they go to a site that doesn't have that functionality, they're going to go, "Well, this blows. And I'm going to go to this other site because they actually care about veterans." Yes? Chad: Yeah. I'd say to an extent. I mean, I would. Yeah. Indeed doesn't have this. Monster doesn't have it on their homepage search. You have to go to another search mechanism, which is all clunky, and it's shitty, and all that other fun stuff. But again, kind of going back to the real story. What happens when Google turns the veteran information loose on the candidate API, right? The candidate search API. Chad: So I mean, there are bigger, more strategic conversations to be having at this point. This is the very first step in the opportunity to start to match candidates for their veteran background to our current requisitions. So yes. This first step is really kind of like a shitty crosswalk step. Big deal, right? Chad: But at the end of this thing, this goes even further. So you have that candidate search APR start to kind of ingest some of those veteran military occupations. And then, I'm going to predict that we're to see Hire by Google surfacing, and matching transitioning military for these types of skills, using this data. Because we're already seeing it with regular recs, now, they've got this new data. Joel: So how is that going to work? Will companies flip a switch to say I'm amenable to veterans? Chad: No, won't have to. Joel: Or will it just say, here's a little flag next to the resume, or the candidate as you're searching so you know it's a veteran? Like, how do you think that's going to look? Chad: Yeah. I don't know that they'll have to do that. I mean, yeah. There could be like a little flag, or something. Who the hell knows? I just think, much like this API went on board and nobody had to lift a finger. People are looking for better ways to surface veteran talent, right? If Google can do that ... And the first step is, obviously, getting it in to search. Then starting to pull the candidates through to understand the candidate background. Then, you can start the matching process. Chad: We've already seen this happen in Hire by Google. Hire by Google, they have the matching piece, where it's actually surfacing candidates out of the applicant tracking system. These are the next steps in to making this happen much better. It's not only about search. It's about this AI matching piece, which I think Google is doing better at this point than most companies are. Joel: So you want to know what I think the story is? Chad: What? Joel: I think this a big handjob to Donald Trump. Now, I don't ... Look, I'm not against helping vets, vets are the best, you're a vet, like, that's all good. But if you think a bunch of geeks in Google's engineering room said, "Let's create a feature to help vets find jobs." Like, I think that's a little bit of a reach. Now do I think the executives at Google said, okay, Trump's on our ass. We came out against the immigrant stuff. Early on, a year ago, Google, Apple, Facebook, all said, immigrants need to come in, what you're doing, making illegal is bad, it just came out that, obviously you've seen Trump is, Google's out to get me. If I search Trump news, it's all bad news outlets and people. So to me, part of this is like, okay, executives in Google, what can we do to make Trump happy or what can we at least do to make it look like we're doing things for the home team? Veterans was probably on the short list, and they figured out, okay, let's help them get jobs. Let's create searches that help them get those jobs. So we'll make Boeing happy. We'll make Northrop Grumman happy, we'll make D.C. employers happy who are looking for clearance people and people in the military. And this'll look good for the home team. I don't doubt that this is a good thing. I just think that it was partly politically motivated and to me that's the story of this whole new veteran search thing on Google, Google for jobs. Chad: Yeah. I would think that there's always political motivation when you're a company as big as Google, but I don't believe that's the biggest reason why they did it. I mean they have veterans on their actual search team who were involved in this project at Google, so not to mention- Joel: Sure. And they have Muslims on the team. Why didn't they create a religious search parameter or why didn't they create, or women or? Chad: Companies are asking for these types of things. So like you said, Lockheed Martin or Raytheon or what have you. If they can make it easier for federal contractors on getting these veterans into their organization, then will they actually gravitate toward Google services? Well, hell yeah, they will. It just makes sense. They have a benchmark that they have to hit, or they have to at least demonstrate that they're trying to hit, for veteran hiring. This could be one of those ingredients in being able to get there, and again, it's all about the data. This is something that we haven't been able to solve yet. Google is all about data and again, I think if any of these AI companies that are out there really take this seriously, they can solve this and they can start to surface candidates into civilian jobs that are transitioning military. Joel: Well, Google's all about AI, but google is also all about making money. They're a public company. They're looking to get into China. It makes sense for them to make nice. I think we're both right. I just think that our listeners would be cheated if all we said about this was, it's a cool new feature. Here's what it does, yippiekiyay motherfucker. I think we should also put in there, hey, this could be partly at least politically motivated to make Trump happy that Google's helping out the home team. That's all I'm going to say. Chad: There's no way that this doesn't position Google better, right? There's no way that it doesn't, so yeah, it does make sense on all different fronts, but I do believe from a cash standpoint, from being able to engage these employers, with hire by Google or these APIs, it just makes a hell of a lot of good sense. It's nice, right. But the big story here is they were able to push these new capabilities out without any of these companies lifting a finger. The guys at CareerBuilder, who pretty much at this point should just put Google on the homepage, all they had to do was wake up and now they have a veteran search. It might not be the best veteran search right now, but it'll get better. They have a veteran search that is integrated into just their job search period. Monster doesn't have that, Indeed doesn't have that. Right out of the gate. So I think that is a big story versus just the veterans piece, right? It's the integration piece and the evolution piece that CareerBuilder is going to be able to enjoy, Jive's going to be able to enjoy, that some of these other organizations won't. Joel: Fair enough. I think stroking the guy in the White House is a bigger story, but that's just me. Joel: Moving on. Snag. You listeners will remember that Snag shit canned their CEO fairly recently, in exchange for a new CEO would help basically build up work and Elance and the whole freelance economy. Chad: Fabio. Joel: Fabio. Yes. News came out this week. They've now got a new COO and CXO, chief experience officer. You looked up these guys a little bit. I guess they're all homer's. They just kind of moved them up the ranks. What do you know about these guys? Chad: This is what you would expect from a CEO right out of the gate is they're looking at responsibilities, roles and responsibilities. So both of these individuals were already C level anyway, right? Monroe, who is now the CX, or the chief experience officer also chief people officer under his umbrella as well. So that is being shifted away and they're really having Monroe focus on the experience. So product, customer experience, candidate experience, those types of things, right? So they're getting rid of this big human resource pain in the ass and I believe they're actually just shifting it over to John Frederick, who joined the team in January as a chief administrative officer or something like that. He's being shifted over to COO, which is again, this is all about shifting responsibilities and priorities. From my standpoint, it makes it a hell of a lot of good sense, but we'll see again how it shakes out. I mean, Fabio has a damn good track record. So you gotta give the guy some props right out of the gate. Joel: Yeah. And usually when you see these new CEO, they either get rid of everybody and bring in their own team, or you see what we saw that with this case, is they start making nice with the people internally, moving them up. It definitely says to me the CEO was the problem, or at least everyone internally thought the CEO is the problem. And I also think that it's a vote of confidence for the vision of being a platform for hiring that we've talked about a few times. So I would expect to see a snag.co, the new app continue to move forward and spread across the country. I think I saw something in the news that they're looking into Canada and other parts of the world. So Snag, it looks like the vision is going forward. The people for the most part are the same folks. Just a new head of the snake if you will. Joel: Recruitology. Chad: We need an advert. Joel: Oh, you want an advert first? You want to hear the British lady from JobAdX, don't you? All right. JobAdX: How many times does someone said to you, we're the Uber of or it's the PayPal of, maybe better Facebook of. In many, many cases these comparisons full short of being close to reality or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's anonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google AdSense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, persistent and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs and staffing firms real time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regrets. JobAdX: For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishers and job boards, higher rev share than other partners through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30-40 percent greater and more through our scalable model. JobAdX: To partner with us, you can visit or search jobadx.com or email us at joinus@jobadx.com to get estimates. Or begin working together. JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatics for your needs. Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK, too. Joel: So when we organize the podcast, Chad and I have a private Facebook group. We share stories, things we're interested in and then we make notes and we put notes in a system that we record the podcast and sometimes I get a little excited and I skip over stuff. So Chad. Chad, thanks for keeping me in line there. Chad: Recruitology. Joel: Recruitology, say that fast 10 times. So they're in the news recently. They have a product that basically helps newspapers. They power their job postings, right? So companies can go to your local newspaper website, click post a job, you post it. The transaction happens there, the job gets posted on the newspaper side as well as the whole network of Recruitology. This used to be a big thing, CareerBuilder, Monster, Hot Jobs, their newspaper partnerships were huge deals. Those have since gone away. None of those. Hot Jobs doesn't exist. Monsters out of the game and CareerBuilder gave it up about a year ago. So we have this sort of fragmented race to partner with newspapers and as most people know, newspaper business isn't great. They need to make money. So these ways to post jobs are important to them. They don't really have the wherewithal or the technology to do it themselves really well. Joel: So anyway, Recruitology, Pandologic, who we've talked about, seem to be in the forefront. I'm surprised JobBoard.io, or jobboardio, whatever we're calling it today, isn't more into this game because the newspaper business is really fragmented, but Recruitology took the pole position this week. They partnered with the Tribune out of Chicago. They got the LA Times, they have the San Diego, the Tribune paper. They've got some big names under the Tribune brand, which used to be Tronc, which I don't think we ever talked about Tronc changing back its name from being a horrible name, Tronc. Joel: But anyway, big win for them in the newspaper space. I think if Google is going to take over the search thing, that if you're gonna get job exposure outside of Google, that these content partnerships are going to be really important. And back in the 2000s, partnering with media, local TV stations, associations, that was a big deal. And it faded away because everyone was into like, I'll just plug in the Indeed API or Simplyhired, and we'll make money on clicks. That's going away. So I think you're seeing this resurgence for a lot of different reasons, but Recruitology seems to be on the forefront. The leading edge of this race. Chad: There really was this laziness that happened, this real malaise, I guess you could say, in being able to just plug in Indeed API and just let it go and get paid per click and the experience wasn't really a local community experience, just getting whisked off to another site. How personal is that, versus something like this. Now, will it be a big win? I don't know. It depends on how they execute on this. And again, as we talk about local news and newspapers, I mean they're on the rise because of whatever politically that's happening locally and nationally. Chad: But there's more traction on local news and newspapers than there has been in many years. So being able to really just kind of springboard off of that is awesome. But you have to, you must keep it more of an intimate feel, because again, you're reading more of the community information, as opposed to just being whisked off to another site. So yeah, I think it could be a big one. I really do, because I think the content, there's so much content that is there that people are yearning for. They have to get, it's good content. They know it's not all this shit that's out on Facebook and whatnot, but it's also about targeting within that content, and knowing the person that you might have tagged to ensure that you're delivering the right type of job content to them. So there are some execution opportunities there for them, and hopefully it works out, because I'd love to be able to see this type of partnership actually work out. Joel: Yeah. And the crack down on fake news. We're seeing Facebook give preferential treatment to legitimate news sources in their feed. I think that helps newspapers and the jobs that are on those sites. A quick history lesson. Once job boards locally and niche job boards realized, hey, I could get traffic on Google for free, I don't need a big sales force. I can just plug in Indeed's API, make money on the clicks, life is good. My overhead's low, I'm getting paid and then Google for jobs came along and killed all the traffic. So now companies and job boards are trying to figure out, okay, where do I make up that traffic? And these kinds of partnerships are one way to do that. So I think it's pretty interesting. We'll see longterm how the newspapers and how these things go. But for now I think it's a good move. Chad: Yeah. It's all about execution though. I mean if it's the same old shit, just with a different lipstick on the same pig, man, it just doesn't fricking matter. You've got to focus on that user experience. Joel: Yeah. And I think programmatic plays into this, having the ad run on different news outlets, having things in related articles and having jobs show up on that. I know Pando is doing, if you read something about nursing, they show nursing jobs next to that content. All that stuff makes sense. And, and the content makes it happen. Well, another good strategy, segwaying into our next topic, story came out by a hospital. Do you remember what it was? Community Health. Chad: Yep, Community Health Network. Joel: Network. So they released, there was a story that they're getting 83 percent of candidates respond to text messaging. Which is great. It's in line with what we've talked about. 95 percent open rates, 90 plus percent open within the first 15 seconds of receipt. And now we're getting job search numbers around 80 plus percent will actually respond. That's a huge number. Chad: Oh god, yeah. And we're talking about nurses for the most case. But give props to Canvas because, they actually worked with Community Health Network. They had it rolled out in a limited basis in May of this year. By the end of June, they had 22 recruiters trained up and rolling and using the actual texting tool. Now they're talking about to date that they've contacted nearly a thousand individuals that are applicants, and that's where they've gotten their 83% response rate. The coolest part about this is understanding that nurses are hard to find in the first place. They're usually on the go? How are you going to get in front of them? Well, obviously it just made sense to start to integrate texting, so recruiters can pre-load a set of screening questions, interview questions. They can send information like benefits, just whatever, man, FAQs, those types of things. But there's interaction, and they've got that person opening those texts. Again, it's very strange to me that texting isn't a staple in most of these systems, these texting platforms. Joel: Yeah. Any marketing that you do, and recruiting is in there, it's taken how long until we actually start seeing text such and such on commercials to this number, right? That should've been something that was commonplace 10, 15 years ago. And it's just now starting to take hold. I mean, these numbers are legitimate. If you're sending in mails and emails that aren't getting answered, text is the way to get through. And Chad's right. If you're hiring people that are on the go, like nurses ... By the way, anyone under 25 pretty much lives on their phone now, so if you're not texting to recruit them, I think you're definitely at a disadvantage. To me, this is a big win for Canvas, Text Recruit, Emissary. I assume we'll start seeing more of these sort of text recruiting solutions pop up. But yeah, 83%. If you're not using text to recruit, contact one of those companies today and get started. Chad: Yeah. And again, we are more of a mobile culture than we ever have been today. So really, what's the mechanism that you can use to ensure that you're actually getting your message or your jobs in front of these people? I think it's pretty damn clear at this point. Joel: And for God sakes, don't call them. Nobody wants to talk to anybody anymore. Chad: Do not call Joel Cheesman. Joel: Don't call me. Chad: He will not answer the fucking phone. Joel: Listen to this ad from AJE instead. AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as in industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our 1000 plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women and minorities, and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community based organizations. Want to learn more? Call us at 866-926-6284 or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com. Chad: Get that compliance on. Joel: That's right. Well, it's time for my favorite segment of the show. Chad: Killing me. Joel: Millennials. Chad: Just so everybody knows, Joel has a toddler, so he has to hear this. He wants to put everybody through the same experience. It's not fair, and I say we put together a list, and I need signatures. Joel: Hashtag Chad Cheese to quit the crying. All right. News out this week, this blows my mind. There's a company in Japan called Exit, who will quit for you if you don't want to go back to your job. Chad: Stupidest shit ever. Joel: We've entitled mealy mouthed millennials who can't suck it up and call their boss or go into work and say, "I'm resigning," can now contact this company, and for $450, have them quit for you. Chad: Yes. Joel: Now there are discounts. I love this. There are discounts for frequent customers. If you quit your job a lot, you can get discounts. And what is it? You get a $90 discount if you're a repeat customer. And if you're a part-time worker, it's only $360, so yeah. This is so ridiculous and so millennial. I can't stand it. Chad: I don't understand. It says, "Stressed out, overworked, and just over it." Right? At that point, if you are stressed out, you're overworked and you're just over it, it is cathartic to say, "Take this job and shove it," or, "Hey. I'm getting the fuck out of here." Right? That, to me, relieves that stress. But yet, I guess that would be for a guy like me, who, I don't mind confrontation. Joel: No shit. Chad: But it blows my mind that you don't have the chutzpah just to look somebody in the eye and say, "Look. I just took another job. I appreciate it. Have a nice fucking day." It's hard. And it gets worse. It seems that Exit has tapped into a growing sector in Japan's economy. The Japan Times reports that several competitors have cropped up in this space, and also attracted investment offers from venture capital firms. Right? I mean, not only bad enough that there's one company that's popping up that's helping people quit, you have a bunch of these companies popping up for a bunch of weak ass, okay, I'm going to say it, millennials, who can't look their boss in the eye, give them a piece of paper and say, "I resign." I mean, that's all it is. Joel: It is better than ghosting though. Chad: Yes. Yeah. Joel: It's still weak. It's seriously weak still. But it is better than just ghosting an employer. And by the way, if you're an employer who gets a call from another company telling us that someone is quitting, please contact us. We want to know more. Chad: Yeah. And just remember, back in the day, the Take This Job and Shove It by Johnny Paycheck, I mean, that was something that was celebrated, when you could tell your boss to take the job and shove it. These guys are not. They're whining in the fucking corner. It's crazy. Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). You just aged yourself. But that's all good, because we're the same age. Keeping on with the millennial trend, although you disagree with me a little bit on this one. A company called Helpr, keeping with the Flickr trend, there's no E before the R, so it's H-E-L-P-R, helps companies provide daycare for their workers. Now to me, this is a total millennial play. This is just like the company that gave young folks who were having children, this space age crib that basically rocked your kid for you, gave it its bottle for you, and talked to it for you. I'm being a little bit facetious, but you get the point. This whole like, baby this generation, give them childcare, give them cribs, give them time, whatever that they need to go yoga or whatever the hell they do. To me, this is coddling. It's a business, in fairness to them, taking advantage of this. But to me, this is another millennial business that I hate. Chad: Okay. This story's wrapped in millennial, which is bullshit, and I don't agree at all with what you just said, especially when it comes to the fucking crib thing. One of the things that we've seen, even Xers and boomers, all the way through, is a female gets what they call mommy tracked. Have you ever heard of that, getting mommy tracked, where when you have a baby, what happens? You are off and maybe you're raising that baby. And therefore, you have to put your career on hold. Now in many cases, the reason why the female feels like she has to stay home, because number one, she's mommy. Number two, they can't afford to pay for possible daycare. And even in this Fast Company article, says, "A Pew study found that 54% of households with two working parents, the mother still does more when it comes to children," and that comes to, obviously, child care. Chad: I think you're 100% wrong, and I think Fast Company wrapping this in a millennial package is bullshit. This has been a problem we have had for decades. Females are getting mommy tracked because they're having babies. And guess what. This is just showing that it's happening to day too. To be able to actually offer ... And as we talk about inclusivity, as we talk about being able to bring more females into different areas like engineering and things like that, these are the types of things that we need to do to be able to help them do that so that they don't get "mommy tracked." Joel: Did your mom work? Chad: My mom did work. Joel: Did your dad work? Chad: My dad did work. They were divorced when I was eight. Joel: What'd they do with you? What's they do your dumb ass? Chad: Luckily, we had family to be able to pick up the gaps. But it wasn't easy. Not to mention, we were also latchkey kids. Remember latchkey kids? Joel: I was one of them. Chad: I know. Joel: We turned out okay. Didn't we? I didn't need some corporate nanny to raise me. Chad: I mean, my mom took time off when I was a baby. There's no question. Was she mommy tracked? I don't know. We haven't had this discussion. Maybe I should. But it's real. It is real. Nobody said that you needed somebody to raise you, but throwing you in a cage with a bottle until mom comes home isn't an option either. Right? Joel: We had a couple wolves in my neighborhood, and my mom just threw me to them and they raised me. And I turned out just fine. Go on to the next story, damn it. This podcast is going on too long. A bizarre story out of Amazon world, reported by TechCrunch, there's a strange little online community. Quoted from the story, "Amazon has developed an unnerving Step ford like presence on Twitter in the form of several accounts of definitely real on the floor workers, who regurgitate talking points and assure the world that all is right in the company's infamously punishing warehouse jobs." What do you make of this shit? Chad: This is a response to the stories of Amazon employees skipping bathroom breaks or peeing in trash cans because it's faster than going to the bathroom because they don't want to be able to miss their quotas, and prospectively get fired, fitting employees with tracking wristlets that they were testing in the UK, I mean, just poor working conditions overall. I mean, go out to Google. Look for Amazon warehouse poor working conditions. Or do a search. You'll see they're all over the place. This, there's no question, is really a response to that. And they're trying to play the human troll farm, I guess you could say, internal troll farm, to be able to try to combat this. It's bullshit. It's the same regurgitating stuff from different people. Joel: I'd love to see how they're logistically doing this. Are they emailing folks and saying, "Copy and paste one of the following and tweet it out"? Are they making the accounts from the employees? Are they setting them up for the employees and then controlling them? This is really intriguing to me. Chad: Yeah. Are they plugging them into something like a TweetDeck, and they have all these tweets already ready to fire out? I don't know. But the tweets are way too similar not to say that they're aren't, they aren't just pushing out standardized bullshit. Joel: Yeah. There's no doubt this is ... If you want, can I read one of the tweets? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Okay. Hello, exclamation point, which is always sort of a giveaway, I work in an Amazon FC in WA, and our wages and benefits are very good. Amazon plays FC employees roughly 30% more than traditional retail stores and offers full medical benefits from day one. Working conditions are very good, clean/well lit. Safety is a top priority at my facility. Number one, no one actually tweets like that, and it just reeks of corporate manipulation. And the good news is the internet will uncover this stuff. It will call you out on it, and you'll get in trouble, just like Amazon is. So yeah, don't mess with the brand because if it's fabricated, people will notice. Chad: The problem is, now they're going to get smarter. They're going to chunk this up and make it more kind of personalized continue to do the same trolling bullshit. Joel: Yeah. I mean, they'll AI it. They'll make scripts automatically that sound like humans. They'll partner with Google Duplex to tweet actual sounding people tweets to mass produce these things. And some vendor will make this a product and sell it to companies to make zombie tweets of employees tweeting out about how great it is to work at the company. This will be a thing. Chad: Okay. I'm done. Joel: We out? Chad: We out. Tristen: Hi. I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my step-dad, Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes, you know, the expensive shiny gold pair that are extra because, well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com.

With the HR Tech Conference right around the corner, there's no stopping the news cycle in recruitment. This week, the boys discuss - Bing doing its best Google for Jobs impression - Google Talent Solutions will sell your product! - Monster Releasing a new iOS app ... sorta - ReSi Finalists - Vervoe making news, and much more... Enjoy, and checkout our sponsors: America's Job Exchange, Sovren and JobAdX. They make it all happen. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Aha, aha, aha. Well, less than 10 days before football season. Are Chad and Cheese on your fantasy team? Sure as hell should be. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast, HR's most dangerous. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm your number one pick, Chad Sowash. Joel: Who gets injured in week one. On this week's show, is Monster readying for a close up? Bing does a great Google for jobs impression, and thank baby Jesus, generation Z is going to outnumber those pesky millennials within the year. And when there's a millennial mentioned, you know what comes next. Chad: Sweet Jesus. Joel: Oh, yes. Get ready everybody. But first a word from JobAdX. That wasn't a very good British accent. But here's one, it's horrible. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of ..." or, "It's the PayPal of ..." Maybe they're the Facebook of. In many, many cases these comparisons fall short of being closer to reality, or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's synonymous our work. JobAdX is Google Ad Sense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, persistent, and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. JobAdX: As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs, and staffing firms real-time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings, through the industry's first truly responsive tool. All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX cost per impression, click, or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regret. For direct clients JobAdX deliver superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishers and job boards hire rev share than other partners through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30-40% greater and more scalable model. JobAdX: To partner with us, you can visit or search JobAdX.com or email us at joinus@JobAdX.com to get estimates or begin working together. JobAdX, the best add to providing smarter programmatic for your needs. Oh and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK, too. Joel: We need to start putting a time limit on how long our ads can play. I love the British accent but damn, she's chatty. Chad: She is chatty. Come on. Joel: Speaking of chatty, let's get to shout outs. Chad: Yes, first one, guess what HR Tech? Fuck off, guys. Guess what? Guess what? We're coming to HR Tech. Yeah. Joel: We may have to wear disguises. For me, emissary.ai, the artist formerly known are also known as Juju is sponsoring my trip. Chad: Very nice. Joel: But you've been taking care for a while, because you've got sugar daddies all over the place. Uncommon is hooking you up, Emissary.ai is hooking me up. HR Tech's in trouble. It's on. Chad: It's fuckin on. That's all there is to it. Joel: Yeah after getting snubbed- Chad: Yeah, HR Tech, too bad. You're not keeping the Chad and Cheese down. Joel: And we're crashing the press room. Whether you like it or not, so I hope you have security detail at the press room. By the way, if you want to talk to us at HR Tech, if you've got a good story, you got a good product, your start up, whatever it is. If you think you got the hutzpah to talk to us, hit us up ChadCheese.com and we will filter out the bullshit from the dope companies. Chad: That's exactly right. And then another really dope place you should be is in New Orleans, coming up later in September where Chad and Cheese, we're going to do Death Match, startup Death Match. Joel: Yes. Who are those four lucky companies, Chad? Chad: Those four lucky companies. we've got TalkPush, We've got Uncommon, Canvas, and AllyO. Joel: That's a top-notch group of suckers, I mean companies, that are gonna come to Death Match. Can we can we have the salt and pepper Push Push It theme song when Talk Push comes out, because I want to see you twerk to to Salt and Peppa in a little bit Spinderella. Chad: I don't know how Max doesn't, whenever he enters a room, doesn't just like have that playing. Joel: He should just have like an '80s style jam box with a cassette tape. Chad: On his shoulder, yeah. Joel: Push it. Push it real good. [crosstalk] Joel: Todd Markle, a new listener, was turned on to our show by a longtime listener, longtime contact of ours, Matt Adam. They're at NAS. More surprising to me that Todd like the show was the fact that Matt Adam thinks so lowly of Todd to recommend the show to him, but a big shot out to both of those meatheads. Chad: Oh, you know Matt Adam is a big time listener. He waits for it to actually hit the feed and then he's on it, man. Joel: Well he can't watch Reds baseball or Bengals football, because they both stink. Chad: I'm gonna get get beyond that. Louise Triance and UK recruiter. Big shout out for allowing me to engage with your peeps and really just rant about Google For jobs for like 40 minutes. It was awesome. We had a great chat back and forth, had about 125 (actually over 150 opps) people on the chat/webinar, whatever the hell you want to call it, but great. I mean, we talked about impact of Google for job, getting ready for Google for jobs, it will indeed die, and you can see it all. That's right. It's recorded. Go to ChadCheese.com, it's on the home page, click on it and you're good to go. Joel: I'm just happy that there's somebody else as dumb as me to voluntarily put you on the air. Wow, it's good to know I'm not alone. Thanks. Of course, they're from Europe so they have a different hole. Chad: Well Ryan Christoi. wanted to see what Chad had to say, because he emailed me and it was pretty much, I want to paraphrase, it was pretty much like, "What the fuck, Sowash? This is 6:00 am in California. And then he's like, "Oh shit, this is a UK webinar." Chad: Now he didn't actually say that, that's my translation of how Ryan was feeling. But yeah, that was funny as hell. Joel: Californians are so angry. I don't get it. It's sunshine there 300 days a year. Anyway, my last shout out is an order one goes out to Bed Bath and Beyond. And no, I didn't buy a new loofa. Beyond.com now goes to Bed Bath and Beyond new, destined to be super successful subscription service, for whatever you buy at Bed Bath and Beyond, so we've been waiting for that change to happen. It finally did. I thought it deserved a shout out. Chad: No it definitely deserves a shout out. Here's one that I love, so out to our friend Kelly Robinson, he apparently walked in on his 20 year old son and caught him doing guess what? Joel: Well you better keep going or else even our show could be too hot for iTunes. Chad: Caught him listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: What? Chad: I know. What the hell is this? Joel: This kid needs to get out more. Chad: No, he just wants to be like dad he wants to be an industry stud, so he needs to get in a little time with Chad and Cheese, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Joel: Can't blame him for wanting to have dad's bank account someday. That's for sure. Well, what's his name? Do we know? Chad: Kelly's son. That's his name. Joel: Kelly's son, if you're listening, dude, ups to you, man. You're probably our youngest loyal listener, at this point. And go get a girlfriend and drink a beer, while you're at it, which I'm sure is legal in his country. Chad: In his country? In California. They live in California. Joel: Go smoke some weed. Can you do that in California? Chad: If he has a medical card I think. No I think actually they do have recreational, I think. Joel: Well there you go, go get high. Listen to Chad and Cheese on one half the speed, and you'll have a great time, apparently. According to some of our readers. Oh, man. Can we get to the show now? Joel: Alright, this is kind of cool. Bing does great impressions of Google, right? Look and feel, algorithm, pretty much does everything Google does, so we should not be surprised that, I believe, you or one of your peeps found or alerted you to the fact that Bing is now doing a Google for jobs type feature on Bing searches for jobs. Now, what I think is interesting, and you have a little segue into Google's view on this, but the jobs that you see on Bing conveniently are only LinkedIn jobs or jobs that are posted on LinkedIn, as opposed to Google, which is all kinds of jobs from all over the place. Unless you're Indeed because you're too stupid put your jobs to Google. Joel: This is, it's kind of shitty. I get it. You pay 26 billion. You want to drive more traffic and engagement and yada yada. So I have nothing bad to say, I guess I would do the same. Why push some other competitors if you own you know the competitor to them? So yeah, Bing is going Google for jobs. But it's only LinkedIn postings. So, if you're ... you know. Joel: And by the way, it's like we think a lot that like Google is a monopoly in search, and I know it feels that way but they're actually not. Most numbers put Google's search market share in the US at about 60, 65%, which is a lot. But Bing and Bing properties, Microsoft properties, they're at like the 25 percent number. So this is like nothing to sneeze at, even if it's 1/3 of the excitement. If you want your jobs to get extra leverage and exposure on Bing, 25% market share in the US, post those jobs on LinkedIn, because they're going to get more traffic, most likely. Chad: So here's Mona over at KRT. She hooked me up. So she sent the screenshot, and she also gave me some search research that is kind of counter to what you're talking about, where within the last 12 months in the US, Google has an 86% market share, where Bing is at 7.5% percent, and globally at 90% versus Bing's 3%. Now, we're talking market share right. Chad: Different than the actual search gain, but still, we're talking about market share. That 90% of a market share, yeah, that's pretty much teach toward -- if not the definition of -- a monopoly. But when you take a look at Bing and what they're doing, Mona was able to capture it. I wasn't able to recreate it on mine so it looks like they're in beta. But the way that they have it set up, the Jobs Powered by Linkedin, since they only have a 7.5 or a 3% market share, I don't think that they're going to have to worry about any monopoly kinds of conversations. So they'll just slam Linkedin jobs down everybody's throat, or at least the small percentage of people who are actually using Bing. Joel: We're seeing this with Linkedin in general, right? If you're an Outlook user ... You're the Microsoft user in the crowd here. They're integrating Linkedin everywhere, so it certainly makes sense that they do it in their search for job postings. And I would assume that people search at some point, like Linkedin searches for people, will get added exposure as well. Chad: I think it's smart for them no matter what. You're talking about the long game here, and the long game isn't Bing. It's about being able to integrate Linkedin and its content throughout the entire Microsoft suite and beyond. Right? I think from a strategic standpoint, this just continues to demonstrate to us that Microsoft is looking at that $26.2 billion and they're saying we've got to do more with this, and they are. Joel: And I think that it also underscores what we've been talking about forever in that this triple threat of Google, Microsoft, and Facebook is for real, and this is just another sign that it's moving toward that kind of three solution universe. Because they keep doing these things, they're clearly serious about it and this is another example. Chad: Yes. And that being said as we transition into, we're talking about Google products, we saw a post actually before we got on the podcast from Tarquin Clark, who's the Director of Partnerships and Go-to-Market at Google for the Cloud, which used to be Jobs Discovery, which is now Talent Solutions, all that other happy horseshit. Anyway- Joel: Tarquin's a big deal. Chad: He's a big deal. Joel: He's a big deal. Chad: He's a big deal. Joel: He's a big deal. Huge. Chad: He actually posted on Linkedin, and it's probably everywhere as well, pimping their different partners who are using Google, and this is pretty much the truxt of the post. "Hey, look. Hey guys out there. Do you want to use Google products? You should, and here's who you talk to, to actually use those products." And it states, "Career Builder, great people; Jibe, on gig; Phenom ..." And it just goes on. So Google is actually, which is really cool, not do you just want their tech -- their machine learning and their AI and all that other happy horseshit -- but you want them to pimp your stuff. Here's Google actually on Linkedin saying use their shit. Joel: Sorry, Indeed. They're not pimping you. We're partnered with Google, and by the way, their big, swinging you-know-what is tweeting out that they're doing business with us and hot linking to our stuff. That's pretty cool. Chad: And he has a quote. It says, "And the best bit," here's the quote, "it was as simple as making a phone call and asking for it to be switched on." It was too easy, dude. Joel: You and I could figure that one out. Chad: Yeah. I could make a phone call. I could just ... I think at this point, Google knows that I want it turned on so it's just going to do it for me. Joel: Our next bit of news will be Facebook buying ZipRecruiter, and ZipRecruiter jobs exclusively populating Facebook. Can I make that prediction? Chad: Whoo, you can make that prediction. That's a big prediction. I'd like to see that. That would be fuckin' awesome. Joel: For ZipRecruiter, it would anyway. Chad: Yeah. I think it'd be awesome for both. I don't know about you, I think that shit would work out. I don't think it's going to happen, but I think that would work out well. Joel: It'll happen right after Amazon buys Slack. Let's go to our next story, not quite as exciting but much more mysterious. Monster Studios is a new app in the iOS app store. So if you have an iPhone or iPad or -- I don't think there's a watch app for it but maybe there is -- you can go search Monster Studios and download it, however you will not be able to sign in. That's because it's not launched yet. Chad: What the fuck is it? Joel: It will be launched at HR Tech, according to Monster PR. So what this is -- and I did a little digging and did a story for it -- Monster is partnered with VideoMyJob, who I think we've talked about. I know I've done an interview with them at ERE. They do videos kind of a cool, interesting way. They have the actually script on the screen so you can be reading and being recorded, and you can edit it pretty in cool ways. Joel: So anyway, Monster has apparently partnered with these guys. They're going to provide the tech to video record a recruiter employer. They do the recording, they upload it, they can attach it directly to a job posting on Monster, and then they can also push it out to social media, and I believe they'll also be able to advertise it on YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook channels. So that's apparently what Monster Studios is. I have been approached by them for us to talk to their CEO, which would be kind of cool, and we'll definitely get to the bottom of it. Chad: Do you think that's the only thing they have coming out at HR Tech? Joel: Monster has sort of said we're going after mobile. Their new ads talk about on the mobile app, the Monster mobile app. And now they have a new app where you can record video, so it looks like mobile and video might be something that they're definitely focused on because that's what we've seen. Now I will say that some of you will remember the Jobr, that's J-O-B-R, acquisition from a couple years back ... Chad: That was crap. Joel: ... that pretty much looked like a big stinker. Chad: Yes. Joel: Apparently someone from Monster, because I dissed Jobr on Linkedin, said you're right but if they get video cover letters right, then maybe we'll have done something. My guess is wouldn't be surprised if down the road they have something for job seekers to record a video, attach it to their resume. And of course, you and I are both big fans of video resumes ... Chad: Not at all. Joel: ... so video cover letters, even more awesome, right? Chad: Right. Joel: Let's Mr. Recruiter give me two minutes to watch a cover letter as opposed to the resume, or give me both videos on both because I have no better thing to do with my time than watch videos. Chad: Yeah, yes. Do we have time for cover letters right now as it is? And then to be able to go ahead and stir the bias into that video resume or cover letter? It's just, once again it seems horrible. Joel: So let's back up. Let's talk about what we know for sure. We don't know that they're going to do cover letters, but we do know that they're going to have employers post videos and connect those to jobs. Are you in favor of that at least? Chad: Yeah. I think that is good content. I think that's good content. And hopefully, it doesn't flip over to the Jobr side. Joel: Well hopefully, employers are creative and actually have their brand come out in these videos, and they don't just point the phone at their face and talk and then attach it, because it could be almost as detrimental to your brand if you just put on these boring little scripted videos to people than if you actually get creative with it. It'll be interesting to see how employers embrace this or if they do. Monster's throwing stuff at the wall. We'll see if it sticks. Chad: See if it sticks. Hopefully, they have more at HR Tech to be able to wow us with. We'll see. Hopefully, we'll get to talk to the CEO and he has the coolest shit in the world. Joel: And speaking of wow companies, we're going to take a quick break here from A-J-E and talk about some of the ReSIs -- if you don't know what those are, stick around -- some of the finalists for the awards at the ReSIs this year. Stay tuned. AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance . We've been helping our thousand-plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment. Designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women, and minorities, and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community-based organizations. What to learn more? Call us at (866) 926-6284, or visit us at www.AmericasJobExchange.com. Joel: Whoo hoo! Joel: So if you haven't heard, the Chad & Cheese podcast is a finalist for Best Blog Podcast, Recruitment Category, obviously. In this space, we're up against Matt Charney ... Chad: Who's that guy? Joel: A long-time blogger, Recruiting Daily. Most of our listeners will know Matt Charney. It should be a fun competition. Anyway, it's nice to be recognized. I am the reigning champ so I'm expecting to have a good showing at this thing, Chad. That means I might actually wear a tuxedo this year. Joel: But anyway, TAtech has these awards every year. They call them the ReSIs. The finalists were put out; maybe we can get a list on Chad & Cheese, a full list. But going through that, what are some of the face-offs that most appeal to you? Chad: First off, just so everybody understand what ReSI stands for because I always have to look it up: the Recruiting Service Innovation Awards. And the ones that really stuck out to me were the ones that included Google for Jobs right out of the gate. Everything else was like, "Yeah, that's kind of cool, that's kind of cool." It's like, "Oh." The Most Innovative Enterprise Solution was either Crowded, Refresh -- which we both like-- or Google for Jobs. And I thought I don't know how that actually fits into it, but obviously anything that says Google automatically makes it to the finals. Chad: And then also the Innovator of the Year, Large Employment Site, Google for Jobs or ZipRecruiter. I see Google for Jobs getting a lot of love because there's no question they're changing the landscape I think right out of the gate. They're still at baby step mode. I don't know that I would say that they are on the precipice of innovation at this point. I think they're on their way to really just kickin' ass and taking names. Chad: But this year's ReSI I think for the Most Innovative Enterprise Solutions should go to Crowded; that's me. And also the Large Employment Site, man, ZipRecruiter has knocked this shit out of the frickin' park. I think they ... I just think it's interesting that when Google is attached to something that they're automatically at the final stage. Joel: For me, any chance that Howie Schwartz from Crowded can go up on stage and say something, I'm all for that because that could go any direction whatsoever. My takeaways from the list are, first of all, who the hell is Pushnami? They're in for Most Innovative Mobile Solution. Oh no, no, no. They're in for Most Innovative Cloud-Based Solution, and I've never heard of them so that will be interesting. Joel: I like the most innovative big data, pitting Entelo versus LinkedIn. We don't see a lot of LinkedIn on this, so it'll be interesting to see how they perform on that scale. I think on the most innovative mobile, Indeed, I'm not sure why they're there and I think Canvas and Emissary maybe missed an opportunity to go against TextRecruit on that one. And I think the fun one is the small guy, innovator of the year, Resume-Library with a hyphen and Mac's List. Which, if you've never met Mac, it's literally like a couple dudes or a few people in Oregon, I think, that have this Craigslist type site. Joel: So to me, those are heavy hitters. They don't deserve to be in the small employment site. By next year, I'm sure they'll be on the enterprise level, but so enjoy these small guys while they're small, because clearly Resume-Library and Mac's List are destined for bigger and better things. Tongue in cheek. Chad: Yeah. And I think ... I know you're talking about suiting up for this and tuxing up for this, but I really think we should wear our Indeed orange jumpsuits. I think that would be cool. Joel: I do like that idea, too. We have time to come up with something creative. You got me thinking. Alright. Chad: Hey, if you're out there in listener land and you've got an idea of how we should dress, throw it out to us. Tweet it. Let's have some fun with it. Joel: By the way, we should shout out to our listeners because we've been begging for votes for weeks. Apparently it has paid off. Thank you for those who voted, we greatly appreciate it. Chad: Yeah. Where's the applause? What's going on? Joel: Oh, hold on. I gotta. There you go. Because if- Chad: You can find that baby, for god's sakes. Joel: Because if we wouldn't have won ... that's where- Chad: You said only millennials. Joel: Damn it. It's just too tempting. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Well, your boys at Vervoe were in the news. What's going on with them? Chad: Yeah. It seems pretty cool. I mean, Vervoe ... and again, they were our very first Firing Squad. And I really like the technology. I really like more of the process methodology. It just made more sense for screening and going through the process and allowing everybody at the top of the funnel to at least have a shot at it. What they're doing now is they've implemented obviously all these different test whether it's videos or it's coding or whatever it is. Chad: What they've done is, they've turned AI and machine learning loose to score and then rank all of those individuals who are taking those tests. So as you're going into your system, which is totally cool because, again, everybody comes through one door and then they're funneled by the system after they're taking these tests and they're answering these questions, so I think it just makes a lot of good sense. They got some money from ... was it SEEK? Joel: Seek and you shall find. Chad: And it looks like they're using it in the right way, so good for Omer and the team down under. Joel: Clearly it's a testament to companies who come on the Firing Squad that brighter days are ahead of you, including big paydays from big companies and new technologies and discussions on our show. So I think Vervoe is doing ... in juxtaposition, you like that word? Of what Monster's doing with video and making it more manual, Vervoe is coming to bat and saying, "Look, we're doing video. You don't have to watch the video. We'll do screening of the video. We'll rank the video in the pre-screening and the tests that they do and how they answer the questions." Joel: Vervoe is making a very nice attempt to AI the whole thing, especially for the small companies, and bring that in a technical video format that's really cool. So it's been fun watching them grow, and I expect to see them continue. Omer, I believe, is gonna be at HR Tech. We should try to find some time to get an update from him. Chad: Oh, yeah. No, I asked him for a full demo and also I'd like him to bring the drinks as well. That'd be great. Joel: If he could bring the Foster's from Australia, that'd be nice. When was the last time you had a Foster's? Man, that beer used to be everywhere in the 80's. Chad: Like the oil can? Joel: Yes. Chad: The big frickin' oil can frickin' Foster's. Yeah, it's been a long time. That's because I like good beer and I'm a beer snob now. So only the good stuff, Omer. Not that Foster's. Joel: But is Foster's even around? I mean, do you have to go to the Outback Steakhouse to get it? Is that the only place? Which, I haven't been there since the 80's either, so. If you got any update on Foster's lager, hit us up at chadcheese.com because the mystery needs to be solved. Chad: Go to Twitter and tag Joel. I don't want to hear anything about that shitty beer, okay? Joel: You're such a snob. And speaking of people who aren't snobs, let's hear that ... get a quick work from Sovren and talk about ... geez, I guess a rapid fire bunch of shit. Chad: Okay. Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the marked because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine think about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching, visit sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. Chad: I love ... the best matches. I mean, literally. She could read the phone book, if they even make those anymore, she could read the phone book and it would sound amazing. Joel: Dude, she's an employee. Chad: Or she was. Joel: I don't know what she does. Yeah, she's probably doing commercials for Clorox now, but we had her first, god damn it. Chad: That's right. Remember that. Joel: Let's talk about money and then let this thing really go off the rails. Chad: Okay. Joel: ThinkHR's in the news for raising, really, quite a bit of money. 67 and a half million dollars. It's a pretty unexciting space. Training, compliance tools, should I go on? Chad: It's boring shit, but it's also shit that needs to be done, right? So there's the training and all those things. I'd really like to see this space become more focused on the experience. Maybe that's what they'll use the money for. I doubt it, but yeah. No, they're focused on the concepting side of the house, being able to provide tools and training to companies, and it's all revolving around compliance and just making sure that you're covering your ass. Joel: Plus that ... we talk about the whole space, and there's a story this past week, I think, about companies hiring folks that don't have degrees that traditionally only hire people with degrees. And to me, it's this whole evolution of ... it's more than just supply and demand. I understand there's less talent to do the jobs. But it's also the fact that skills are changing so rapidly. Get people on that have a base level of understanding and train them and keep educating them, and I think tools like ThinkHR are sort of on the cutting edge of making that commonplace going forward. Chad: Yeah. And that being said, employers now seem to be open to ditching degrees. Nine out of 10 employers report being ready to accept candidates without a four year degree to fill positions in an increasingly tight labor market. And this is my "yeah, no shit." Because after all the year of up and down in the labor market, we start throwing four year degrees on shit that they don't even need four year degrees. And then we look back later and it's like, "Well, why can't we find people qualified to do this?" Well, probably because your qualifications are all jacked up, idiot. Chad: This is the kind of thing that we get into when we don't really look at our job descriptions and our requirements and boil them down to "what do we really need and what's the persona of the type of person who's going to be doing this type of job?" In most cases, you take a look at it, they don't need a damn degree for a sales position or customer service position or many of those things. They might've done other things with other experience which is actually better. Joel: Amen. And you know what else doesn't take a degree? Chad: Drinking beer. Joel: Is reserving a room at the new beer-themed hotel outside of Columbus, Ohio. I have nothing else. It's a beer-themed restaurant. There's beer in the shower. Chad: No. It's ... dude, it's BrewDog. If you know your, again, snobby beers, BrewDog was a beer that was originated in Scotland, and the number two location that they built was in Columbus, Ohio. They've got some amazing beer, and to be able to think that you can just spend the night and have BrewDog just surrounding you, some Punk IPA or some Jack Hammer or Dogma or something like that, just be able to reach out and grab it, to me sounds like heaven. Joel: Beer in the shower. Chad: Yes, I know! I bet is actually has beer-scented soap and shampoo. Joel: We could go to a lot of different directions on that, but I will not. Lastly from me, story to this week, Gen Z is set to outnumber millennials globally in the next 12 months. There's no story or opinion, I'm just very happy that this it- Chad: No, you're happy because you're looking for stories where you can use that goddamn sound effect. That's why you're happy. Joel: Damn it. You got me. There it is again, folks. Yes. Chad: Damn it. Joel: Welcome to my world at three in the morning. We out? Chad: I'm out. Joel: We out. Stella: Hi. This is Stella Cheesman. Thanks for listening to the Cheese and Chad podcast, or at least that's what I call it. Anyway, make sure you subscribe on iTunes, that silly Android phone thingy, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to give buckets of money to our sponsors. Otherwise, I may be forced to take that coal-mining job I saw on Monster.com. We out.

Employment branding is HOTT! While most think of Glassdoor or Indeed when the topic of anonymous employee reviews comes up, there's an entire universe of platforms hoping to help employers improve their reputation, both nationally and globally. European-based kununu is one such offering, and we sat down with CMO Dan Sirk at a recent SHRM conference to learn more about the growing landscape. Visit our sponsors, Sovren, JobAdX, and America's Job Exchange. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION: Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our tenth year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women, and minorities, and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community-based organizations. AJE: What to learn more? Call us at 866-926-6284 or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com Joel: At SHRM talent in Las Vegas, pleasure to introduce Dan Sirk-- Dan: A pleasure. Joel: From Kununu. Dan is the CMO of the North American or just US-- Dan: US. Joel: Is there a Canadian CMO as well? Dan: There's not a Canadian CMO. Joel: Okay. So you're the head guy in North America. Dan: You're the Chief marketing dude. Chad: Yeah. Chief marketing dude. Joel: So, many of our listeners don't know Kununu, never heard of Kununu-- Dan: What? Joel: So, yeah, it's true. Now, if we're an Austrian based show or where ever you guys were ... I'm sure you'll talk about that a little bit. Dan: Yep. Joel: So give us the spiel on Kununu and we'll sort of dig into your thoughts and opinions on the industry and what's going on. Dan: Yeah. Absolutely. So, Kununu is an employer branding and review platform, right. So, we think about what we do, we basically help companies tell their story. Then we make sure that we get that story in front of candidates at those key moments when it would influence their behavior, whether they're looking ... thinking about applying or their thinking about taking a job with the company. Joel: It's fair to say you are a competitor to Glassdoor, reviews on Indeed; some companies that our listeners are certainly familiar with, yes? Dan: Yes. Absolutely. I think an implicit in that question is, well what makes you guys different, right. Chad: He's good at this. He's good at this. Dan: He must be CMO. Chad: Chief marketing dude, CMD. Dan: Yeah. So, when you talk about Glassdoor, even if you ask Glassdoor what they are right, they tend to operate as a job board. Indeed also creates as a job board, right. So when you think about what that means it tends to mean that they're really trying to get candidates when they come through the door to apply to as many potential jobs on the platform. Joel: Are you saying they're a job board primarily? Dan: Yes. Joel: Okay. Chad: There you go. Joel: Someone said it, finally. Chad: Finally. Joel: Thank God. Finally. Dan: Glassdoor says it too. So I think we are ... we're really in it for the companies and our jobs done when somebody's actually applied for that job, we're not to get that person to go to any other job opportunities. Joel: And Kununu is Icelandic for blank page right? Chad: Icelandic? Dan: Swahili. Chad: Swahili. To have your hands right when you do it too. Dan: Depends on who ask you and when you ask them but yeah. Joel: So you originated in Europe, you have a pretty big presence there as well. A couple years ago you partnered with Monster to power their reviews. How is that going, how long is that relationship, are you looking to partner with other job sites as well? Dan: Yeah. That relationship has been going really well. Monster has been an effective partner for us. With Google for jobs, it's a similar architecture right. These entities are looking to leverage our star ratings and our content to try and gain more traction and engagement with the folks who are engaging with that platform. Joel: Google for jobs will present reviews on your site or at least the number of stars in the Google for Jobs. Has that met a nice increase in traffic for you guys? Dan: Nice bump. Really nice bump. Chad: Really? That's cool. Dan: Yeah. Google for jobs actually didn't break out the traffic associated with Google for jobs relative to conventional search until recently, but back when we launched we saw literally a doubling of our organic traffic. Joel: Wow. Okay. And are you looking ... is your marketing ... so partnering with other job sites is that something in the offing, is CMO, how are you guys getting your name out there, how are you sort of cutting through the clutter? Dan: Yeah. I mean we're open to conversations about anything. We're an insurgent in this market and we're trying to make noise. I think when we think about from a marketing standpoint what we want to accomplish it's we really want to focus on the user and delivering value for the user. That's both on the C side and on the B side. When we think about the customers, what can we do to support their work, and then on the C side making sure that candidates getting to understand what it's like to work at a company before they take a job there, that's our purpose. Joel: I feel a transparency question coming from Chad Sowash who loves transparency. Chad: Yes. Been holding back for so long. So on the transparency side of the house, how do you actually position this to company's with regard to; transparency is here, how do you embrace it on Kununu versus -- Joel: Putting your head in the sand. Chad: Yeah. How do you embrace it? Joel: It's commercial time. Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks, about each individual transaction. It will find, rank and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. Sovren: To learn more about Sovren AI Matching, visit sovern.com. That's s-o-v-r-e-n dot com. Chad: It's showtime! Dan: Yeah. I think I've been surprised and appreciative of the fact that I think a lot of HR folks that we've been talking to, here at the show not one person, I talked with 50 people, not one of them has been like, oh my god a review site I can't, you know what I mean. They know that the reviews are out there at this point, there's been a real proliferation of them. It's a reality and I think are all of them seeing it as an opportunity, probably not everybody, but I don't think everybody ... I don't see anybody whose fighting it and saying, "oh listen, that stuff just shouldn't exist, it's completely irrelevant, whatever." Joel: Well, probably. That probably happened in the beginning but the growth has happened so quickly that they know it's going to happen. So what you're saying is, so how does an employer embrace that transparency on Kununu? Dan: Totally. The best thing to do honestly is to claim your profile and actually engage. Joel: Own your shit. Dan: Well. Claiming a profile is free on our platform -- Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Dan: -- so we really want to enable two way dialogue between candidates and the companies. If our purpose is to give an honest view of what it's like to work at the company we need the company's perspective. We make it free for people to claim their profile on our platform and we want people to be able to respond to reviews, respond to questions that candidates are asking and engage at that level as an identified person who works inside the company. That's only going to make the decision making process that much easier for the person who's coming by and trying to look for information about it. Joel: And you guys recently launched a new feature where you could ask questions. Dan: Yes. Joel: Correct me if I'm wrong on this, tell us about that service and how it's going so far. Dan: Response has been great on both sides. We launched here in the US and we were like, okay how many questions are going to role in. And we also were wondering hey -- Joel: A question might be, are there free bagels. Dan: Free bagels is a question. Chad: That would be a Joel question. Dan: You would be surprised at the questions that come in, yeah. Chad: Free beer nights. Dan: They've really been rolling in. They've been rolling in for our customers but then also on profiles that are unclaimed and the questions really do vary, vary quite a bit. It could be something like a specific benefit, could be about working hours, could be about culture. Then there's some wacky ones that really might too wierd... Joel: I bet. I bet. Talk about the future of this space. In most industries you have two horizontals, you have Coke and Pepsi, then you have the verticals under that. Are we going to see more segmentation, are going to see Kununu for over 50, Kununu for African Americans, Kununu or Glassdoor for that? Are we going to see few or these company's come about? Dan: This is a great question. When you think about where the space is going overall, I think job boards are getting commoditized more and more and certainly with the rise of Google for jobs, five years from now they might not even be around. I think company's are starting to come to appreciate the fact that, listen, we need to actively promote our company and our culture and our dollars maybe shouldn't be spent quite so much over here but you'll be investing the future around of building an image for our company. Chad: So what's I'm hearing is Glassdoor is making a huge mistake by focusing on jobs, because that stuff's going away and they should be focusing on the review area. Dan: I would not dare to tell Glassdoor what to do. I certainly have nice things to say about Glassdoor, I've never had a negative experience with them myself. Joel: The good news about Kununu is you haven't taken 200 million dollars from investors to be put into situation where you've got to do something that makes money now. Dan: That's true. Joel: Okay. Dan: I think answering the second part of your question, where is this employer branding space going, I think is also a really interesting question. I would say there's a couple of things that are top of mind for me with regard to that. I do think segmentation is and specificity is going to be something where things are going to move. People wanting to understand not, what it's like in general but what is it like to work in this department for this, you're not going to get to this specific person, but what is it like to work as a woman in this organization. Joel: You can see her in her sight her fairy god boss. Dan: Exactly. Larger aggregators like us of this type of information can do a better job of dissecting and cutting that information up and serving that need and understanding it so we don't have to necessarily be customized like an inter-site which is a great site, we've worked in partnership with them. If we can cut that data on a bunch of different ways we can really help serve the user that much better. As much as possible enabling two way communication is another place where this is really going to go. Dan: What are the questions that candidates actually have, what are the things they want to understand. Then giving the company the opportunity to engage on that level is also a real opportunity for this space, which is, really our Q & A feature is really a toe in the water thing, There's a lot more we can do with that. Joel: For the company out there who has maybe poor reviews or reviews that they would like pump up, improve. What advice do you give a company who wants to sort of greatly improve their ratings and their stars, numbers of stars that they have? Dan: Whether company's partner with us or choose not to I always give the same advice on this, which is, hey ask your current employees what it's like, ask them to write a review and ask them what it's like to work at the company. You would be surprised at the positive answers that you get. We did a study, because we really wanted to understand what is the bias between what's on our site and what's happening internal, for internal surveys. So we partnered with Energage and they do all the best of Boston, best of Philly, they partner up with all these newspapers. They do a bunch of internal surveys to establish which companies are the best to work for around which criteria. We match their data up against ours to see, okay what's the bias, are we moving in the same direction or are we moving in opposite directions. Dan: What we found was we actually moved in the same direction consistently but there was a .75 bias down, so we were moving, and there was a high degree of correlation, but we were more negative than they were. If you just get current employees to actually go ahead and write reviews for your company you're going to see your score go up organically. Joel: So how do employers actually ... how do they work with you? How do they partner ... how do ... what do they do? Chad: How do you make money? Dan: How do we make money? I think like I said earlier we really want to get employers engaged in our platform which is why we allow them to do some stuff for free. We're thrilled to get folks to do that, it's part of what were doing here, getting folks to sign up. For the folks that need more than that and are looking for building out a more robust picture of their culture we partner up with those folks and offer a variety of services to enable them to do that. Joel: Tell us something new and exciting that's coming down the road for Kununu? Dan: So we've got some changes coming with our free claim profile. Joel: We want specifics on the show not just something something. Chad: Come on Dan. You know better. Dan: One of the things folks have been asking for is for us to enable them to put a logo on their free profile pages, so that is something that's in the development pipeline and hopefully we'll have that at some point. Joel: Not the most exciting announcement however but we appreciate that. We appreciate that. Dan: We watched Q & A in January, we can't, we're still working on it. Joel: We won the gold man. We'll have -- Chad: Chill out. Chill out dude. Joel: bronzes from now on until we have another gold on the wall. Dan, where can someone find out more about you guys and learn more? Dan: Sure. I encourage everybody to go to Kununu.com. Joel: And spell it for the listeners. Chad: How many u's in Kununu? Joel: I could spell Kununu a million different way. Chad: It's dizzying. Dan: K-U-N-U-N-U dot com. Joel: Easy enough. Chad: Very good. Dan: And you can check out ... you can check out ... I really encourage people to check out what people are talking about in their company, go ahead and claim their profile. We'd love to have you on board as somebody who's engaging on our platform. Chad: Dan says own your shit guys. This is yours, go get it. Joel: Thanks for your time Dan. Dan: Thank you. Appreciate it guys. Chad: Good job. JobsAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of," or "Is the PayPal of?" Maybe "They're the Facebook of." In many, many cases, these comparisons fall short of being close to reality or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. JobsAdX: In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot-on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google Ad Sense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, persistent and smarter ad unit for job-related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs and staffing firms, real-time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. All of this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regrets. JobsAdX: For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best in programmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishers and job boards higher rev share than other partners through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30-40% greater and more through our scalable model. JobsAdX: To partner with us, you can visit or search JobAdX.com, or email us at joinus@jobadx.com, to get estimates or begin working together. JobsAdX: JobAdX. The best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK, too. #Kununu #Reviews #Marketing #EmployerBrand #EmploymentBrand #Glassdoor

Dat Money keeps flowing in the Recruiting Tech world! - iCIMS rang the cash register this week - Wouldya Perkspot or ClearCompany? - Upwork is moving into full-on Enterprise / Monopoly mode - Indeed's says FU Google for Jobs - We tease Smashfly and Emerson. Big fun! Visit our sponsors, because, money... Sovren, JobAdX and America's Job Exchange rock tha hizzy (do kids still say hizzy?). PODCAST TRANSCRIPT sponsored by: Disability Solutions is changing minds and changing lives through disability inclusion. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinions, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Hey, hey, hey. It's your boys Chad and Cheese ready to drop another episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast on your eardrums. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm so pissed right now. Joel: All righty, on this week's show iCIMS goes "Choo, choo." Indeed's parent company gives Google for Jobs a Big FU, and Smash Fry introduces the world to Emerson. Stick around, I think Chad has a rant stewing inside him. Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market, because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching visit sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N dot com. Chad: So much smart than human beings. Joel: And that's not too hard to do if you're just on Facebook for a few hours. Chad: It's not. Joel: You got a rant inside of you, but we're gonna get the shout outs first- Chad: Yeah. Joel: ... and keep the audience waiting for this. I'm gonna start it off. Last week when I went off on HR Tech, justifiably so in my mind- Chad: Yes. Joel: ... I said that Todd Raphael, my editor at ERE, had dropped an F bomb. And when I went back into the actual conversation there were no F bombs dropped. So although Todd relayed surprise that I was not given a press pass to HR Tech, he did not drop an F bomb. He's way too classy for that. It's idiots like us who drop F bombs in podcasts. So just wanted to clear that up. Todd, you're all good man, don't worry about it. No F bombs. Chad: Well Ed from Philly didn't drop an F bomb but I bet he wanted to. So he actually tweeted, "Boo hashtag Chad and Cheese won't be at HR Tech." He's not happy. And he actually came up with his own hashtag, #FreeChadCheese. Joel: Which I love it. I think t-shirts are in order, maybe bill boards in Vegas for the show. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah, I love it. Thanks Z, appreciate it. Shout out for Jason Crowell. Last week I talked about Google dropping related searches on his homepage. And had a talk with him, he was the one who actually saw it first, that I know of, shared it. Talked to him, he gave some insight which we might have time for at the end of the show to discuss. But- Chad: Cool. Joel: Jason, appreciate it. He's a recruiter out in Colorado for a trucking company there, so. Shout out. Chad: Very nice. Well a couple of shout outs for our friends at jobAdX and Uncommon, who are going to be at HR Tech's startup Pitchfest. So if you're gonna be there, go to Pitchfest and check these guys out. Couple of awesome companies. jobAdX and Uncommon gonna be pitching out there. Joel: Not to be mistaken with Bitchfest, which is what will be happening after hours when drinks are consumed. Joel: Shout out to Jennifer Henley. Chad: Yeah! Joel: Some of you may have attended our webinar this week on high frequency hiring. Jennifer's an executive with NAS Recruitment Innovation. The webinar was sponsored by Talroo, so shout out to both them as well. But Jennifer did a great job. She's a mountaineer, which my wife really likes. And you know, let's go mountaineers! Shout out. Chad: Shut up. So ... And also shout out to some of the attendees who participated. We got a bunch of participation that happens. Kathy Plum, Claudia, Adriana Maddox, Jacob, Michelle, and a bunch of others. Thanks for attending guys. Joel: Did you just say Michelle and no last name? Chad: Yeah, 'cause she had Michelle hyphen or some shit like that. Joel: Michelle. Nice. Chad: Michelle knows who she is. Joel: That's nice. Chad: Michelle knows who she is. If you haven't listened to last week's firing squad with ZAPinfo you have to listen to this episode. Doug Berg, who I call the grandfather of RMPs ... he didn't like that but still. He pitched, did a great job. Got to see how it actually came out in the wash, but you gotta listen. There is some really good history and some good innovation that's happening there. Joel: Dougie Fresh, dropping a bomb on firing squad. Love it. Joel: Well I'm gonna give I think our first shout out to Death Match- Chad: Yes! Joel: Those of you know that we are in bed so to speak with TAtech, we're really engaged with those guys. Chad: Oh man! Joel: They came to us and said, "Guys, how do we liven up the show?" And after a few brain fart sessions we came up with Death Match, which is a final four competition pitting four startups against each other. Chad: Yep. Joel: Chad and I are gonna be judges, we're gonna have a surprise judge. And then I guess another judge, hopefully to garner who the winner is. And for the first time we can finally mention Death Match as well as who the Death Match competitors are. Chad: Yes! We have Uncommon, Canvas one of our favorite domains. Go canvas dot IO. Talkpush. Joel: Push it, push it real good. Chad: And Allio. So Uncommon, Canvas, Talkpush, and AllyO. And just so that you know, I would really appreciate it if you not say in bed with TAtech because 'peat and repeat, having that visual is never something I wanna have again. Joel: Yeah we want people to attend the conference. Chad: Shout out to Disability Solutions, our transcription peeps. Chad: Okay so we're always giving people shit, we just did with Canvas, "'go Canvas dot IO" about their URLs. Well Disability Solutions had a very long URL, it was Disability Solutions at work dot org. And wanted to give them huge kudos, because they moved from that long ass domain to simply disability talent dot org. Joel: It's amazing when brains actually come out in business, it's very nice and refreshing. Chad: It was cool too though, because Doug said ... And this is one of the things that we always ask about the rebranding and what not, he said that he always has a name that he starts off with, with a company ... and Doug's sold plenty of companies. And it always evolves into something entirely different. So they went from WebClipDrop drop to ZAPinfo. And that's just, again, just a guy who's done this before. This is normal. Joel: You know what that little story has made me think of? Chad: What? Joel: Remember Itz Big? Chad: Oh God yeah! IT ... Joel: I-T-Z big I-G. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And they started out with, we don't know what it's gonna be but it's big, whatever we're doing. And they never changed it from that. And they're gone now. But good people behind the organization. But it made me think of Itz Big. So any of the old timers in the industry that remember Itz Big, just have a moment of silence for the death of Itz Big. Chad: Yeah no shit. Joel: It wasn't big. Chad: No. Joel: My last shout out, again with TAtech, we're gonna be hopefully doing some video interviews, which we've never done before. Chad: Yes! Joel: Peter Clayton, who a lot of people know does some stellar work with video and podcasting. We're gonna do these videos. If you, your company are interested in being interviewed by us and having some mad social media juice going out from that, go to chadcheese.com I think there's a link on the homepage, or you can reach out to us directly. Chad: Last from my side, so this is something that you actually put in our Facebook group but you didn't say it so I'm going to. Joel: Okay. Chad: There's a Glassdoor review on Career Builder. Here's the actual review, and quote: "Continuing to work at Career Builder now feels like looting a corpse." Okay so here's- Joel: That's so good. If you're bored at work right now just go to Glassdoor and search Career Builder's reviews. It's ... they're just classic. They are entertainment galore. Joel: So I actually have some gossip around Career Builder, which I know is a surprise. But apparently what I've heard is they have a new employee agreement that they have to sign with a disparagement clause that essentially says you will not disparage the company, talk shit at any time, prior to or after or in during your employment with Career Builder. So Career Builder, if that's true, is certainly noticing ... If anyone out there has a screenshot of the language that's in the new employee agreement please send it to us, 'cause we'd love to see it. Chad: Yeah and just so you know, you're gonna stay anonymous. That's all there is to it. Just send us this stuff, if it's legit ... we're definitely gonna check sources, but send that shit to us. Joel: I think it's time for a Chad rant. Chad: Ah, dude. Joel: Chad rant! Chad: Yeah, so. Okay, so this is about clearances right? Security clearances and how they actually affect the workforce. Now stick with me here because this isn't political, but security clearances being ripped away from American assets, like John Brennan and Hayden and Comey and many more, have actually started the conversation that I've heard on the news and now on social media about why they just don't strip clearances from people after they leave service in the first place. I mean have you heard this? Joel: I probably fell asleep during it. But I have heard mentions of some sort of security clearance issue. Chad: So there are a couple of things here. So first off military veterans have always had an issue translating the skills and finding jobs. And we're always talking about trying to help military veterans find jobs in the civilian world after serving their country. Although ones equipped with security clearance, and individuals who have those security clearances, are much more marketable and can find jobs easier. Right? So when you have a security clearance and you're coming out into the civilian sector, working for a Lockheed Martin maybe some other federal contractor, you're more marketable. Chad: So the thing is, if you're asking why, one of the reasons why is because for all of our veterans that are out there, it actually helps them get jobs much faster if they have the clearance. And security clearances aren't lifetime guys, they're renewable. So that means that you have to go through a vetting process again and again and again. So this isn't something that you just get handed to you. Chad: And to give you an example, so I mean a certification to work in the intelligence community. Let's just look at it like that. So if I ripped a security clearance away from you after you left the federal government or military or what have you, it would be like if a developer leaves an organization and they lose all their certifications. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Right? It also ... Or maybe like a mechanic. Should they lose their ASE certification when they leave their employer and have to reestablish it again? Joel: No. Chad: The cleared community, they depend on this. And it just makes damn good sense. We're looking at this the wrong way. We're looking it as why does this person have a security clearance? It should be more of America needs these individuals to have these clearances so that they can be read in, in certain circumstances, and be able to provide us with network, intelligence, and background. If they can't do that because they don't have a clearance, then guess what? They're not worth anything to us. And they are an asset. So just to let you know, it's good for our military and it's also good for individuals who have that knowledge to continue to get that clearance. So this just makes sense. Chad: And for all of you out there in social media land, do your research, ask more probing and smart questions, and then you won't look like dumb asses when guys like me have to actually school you. Joel: And you don't want to be schooled by Chad, believe me. Chad: No. It's hard not to call you a fucking idiot on Facebook, let me tell ya. I don't, but it's hard not to. Joel: We talk about DHI a lot and that's usually tied to dice, but we sometimes forget clearance jobs is one of their properties. And one of the only growing properties in their arsenal. So it's clear that this is a definite need, and it's an important topic. It's not necessarily my lane, but you go to town man if you need to rant on that. Chad: It's a workforce thing, dude. And that's what we have to take a look at. We don't look at how things impact our work ad our people. This impacts our work and our people and our intelligence community overall. So rant over. Joel: Nice. Can we talk about iCIMS? Chad: Please! Joel: iCIMS get paid this week. Announced on Wednesday I believe. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Joel: They ... Okay so iCIMS has raised roughly $92 million to date, which is not chump change. Now they've been around a long time. They've had one major investor in that time. They have a new one now. What's interesting about this, and your opinions are welcome, is they did an undisclosed amount of raise. Which is kind of odd when we're talking VC and equity type folks. They usually wanna let people know. So I'm not sure exactly what to read into that. Although I'm sure it wasn't in the £50,000 range, I'm sure it was a pretty significant amount of money. Joel: But good for them. I mean my take aways are when you raise that kind of money there's usually an IPO in the future, there's a sale or something in the future to cash out that investment. I know that we talked to Colin Day and if you haven't listened to that interview you should do so. But taking money means investors that want cash out. So to me, am I gonna be shocked if we see an iCIMS IPO in the next two or three years? No. Or maybe an acquisition potentially, although I don't know who's going to acquire them. I would argue that ATS's are sort of becoming commoditized, although I'm sure every ATS would disagree with me on that. Chad: I think we are in a place where we're continuing to see companies, not just start-ups, companies like iCims who have been around for well over a decade. Who, need to stay in front of the competition, or morph into something entirely different. The only way that they can do that, in the time that they see feasible, is to be able to take cash. It's the only way to do it. Chad: They've been able to, obviously, evolve just with their own revenues, which I think is awesome. But again, to be able to spark that kind of growth and perspective development, it takes more money, it definitely takes more money. Joel: Yeah. It almost feels like an arms race at this point. Chad: It does. Joel: There's so much money going into this industry. I think a lot of it too is being inspired by Google, Facebook, and Microsoft getting into it big time. Like, investors that see that say, "Wow. There's gold in them thar hills." They want to get a piece of that. Whether it's through acquisition by those companies, or retail investors getting excited because that space is heating up. Joel: So yeah, the time is right. iCims, very smart people. I'm sure they wouldn't do this stupidly. I suspect that it will be a smart investment in the next few years. Chad: Well remember, during the interview with Colin he called Google the savior of our industry. So, you know ... And, iCims is working very closely with Google on the enterprise API side of the house. So think of this, they are already starting to institute, or they already have, instituted Google search API into their job search. Now there's the candidate API search, that you've gotta know right now that iCims has been working hard with Google to be able to integrate that API, that candidate API job search in there. Chad: So, the savior of our industry, putting all those APIs and things together. I think you can see where this is going. Joel: Yeah. And I think we're going to see more acquisitions. Of course, we talked about the texture crude acquisition. Those guys have hired some nice C-Suite executives. They're moving up to next level stuff. So, it's fun to watch, and ups to them out there in New Jersey iCims. Chad: It's pretty awesome. Joel: Well, SmashFly is a company we don't talk about too much. Although we're doing an interview with them soon, their Head of Marketing, is that correct? Chad: Yeah. JayZ. Joel: For The Uncommon, the exclusive this month, JZ, yeah. So, we won't touch on this for too long, because I'm sure we'll talk about it in the interview. But, SmashFly introduced us to Emerson. Chad: Right. Joel: Their Chatbot, their AllyO competitor, I guess. Fortunately, there's finally a male name in the Chatbot world, which is refreshing. Because, there's just too much sexism in the Chatbot industry. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Any thoughts on the introduction of Emerson? Chad: No. I think it's awesome, because we actually had ... this is a major part of one of our Podcasts months ago. Where we talked about Paradox, Olivia, and HiringSoft. So, a couple of different organizations who were starting to partner with SmashFly. Now what we're starting to see is the fruits of that labor. I'm really looking forward to having the discussion with Josh, and really pressing them on what the Hell they're going to be doing to ... This is a very crowded space, what are they going to be doing to really push themselves ahead of everybody else? Joel: My input on all this is, I've always thought that Chatbots were going to be commoditized. And, this was going to be a feature, instead of a separate product. To me, SmashFly plugging in a Chatbot into their solution, putting those conversations within their CRM. Putting in all the information. To me, it's just the fact that Chatbots are a feature, to make them an actual product, stand alone, is going to be really challenging. Joel: I think companies like Olivia, where it's sort of a mobile only kind of thing, where it replaces text recruiting or text messaging, then it could work. But, I think we're going to start seeing Chatbots on every CRM, every ATS, this is just going to be something that everybody has, at some point. Chad: Yeah, but here's the thing. You have to have companies like the Alios and The Canvas, and Olivia, and Paradox. To be able to do this right, and to really focus all of their cash in this area. And then, find ways to be able to monetize it. It might be a feature, but it's a feature that could perspectively sell a much bigger contract. And, for SmashFly to be able to say, "Look, we're not going to spend a lot of cash on this and try to develop this. Because all these other guys are doing it really well." Find somebody who marries up very well with them. Chad: I'd like to see ... It's more than just a feature. It's something that will, and could, and I would assume right now, probably is helping sell big contracts. Joel: Yeah. I see it more being one of those check box things. Right? 10/15 years ago it was, "Is your site SEO friendly? Are your URLs okay? Can Google find your stuff?" That used to be a product. And now, everyone has to have URLs that can be read by Google. Joel: And then it was, "Is your site mobile?" And you had companies like Jive. "We're going to mobilize your website," right? And then all the ATSs said, "Okay, well we've got to be mobile optimized." And then, all those companies went away. Joel: To me, this is the next feature that every ATS and what not is going to have. And, all these little players that do it exclusively are going to go by the wayside. Chad: This is so much bigger than that. You're thinking very shallow on this. Joel: No it's not. Chad: It is totally. Because, this is also a process methodology piece, and engagement piece. So, it's so much bigger, because they're going to be able to collect more data than ... SEO, was just to be able to make sure that you were there to compete. This is actually focusing on gathering data and being able to do it in a much better way. Chad: On the application side of the house, or also helping, in this case, as a recruiting assistant. So, it's bigger than those types of features. Was SEO big? Yeah it was big. Did it help companies? Yeah, not really, in most cases. Yeah, they checked a box. But in this case, and I think it will. Joel: I'll edit, if you didn't benefit from SEO, it's your fault. Chad: Yeah, I agree, I agree. Joel: Alright? Chad: I agree. Joel: Well speaking of a company that definitely benefited from SEO, Recruit Holdings, Indeed's sugar daddy, reported earning recently. They ain't afraid of no jobs from Google, apparently. They saw an 8.2% over year growth with the company. They called out Google specifically in the report. Which I thought was very interesting. Joel: They said, "Even though the pundits, the Podcasters are talking about our death by Google. We're not seeing that." They claim 200 million unique visitors per month at Indeed. And Indeed is now claiming 120 million resumes. They're putting on a brave face. And keep in mind, Google for Jobs, I don't think has even been live for a year. Joel: So, to talk about year over year growth is a little bit disingenuous. Because Google for Jobs hasn't been around that long. So, we'll see what their growth next year is, year over year. But yeah, they're keeping a brave face. Good for you Indeed. Chad: Well, and Google for Jobs isn't even world wide yet. They're rolling out. Hell, they just hit Europe for God's sake, what, about a month ago? So yeah, Google for Jobs is in its infancy. This is all bluster and bullshit. Chad: Okay Indeed, I totally get that you guys are making cash. We've talked about this, good for you, continue to make hay while you can. I'm going to beat a dead horse here. I remember when Monster was kicking everybody's ass. Yeah, that's not happening today. That didn't happen, because a little bitty site like Indeed came and whipped their ass. Chad: This is an entirely different dynamic. We're talking about a brand that is in everybody's hand, and/or browser, and/or house. So, if you want to just try to push this off like it's, "Oh, Google for Jobs really is not impacting us right now." Yeah, no shit asshole. That's how it starts. Chad: But if you want to continue with this brave face, I would assume you should probably continue to do that. But, make hay while you can. Because this day, my friend, will end. Joel: By the way, we reported some sightings in the wild of Google putting related searches on their homepage for job searches. Which, I have actually seen quite frequently when I go to Google these days. I wrote a little story about an ARE that should come out soon. Joel: But yeah, if Google starts pimping job search on their homepage, watch the numbers go up. Because, that is some very valuable real estate. Chad: Yeah. Not to mention once again, Indeed is spending a shit ton of cash, and they have to, outside of the organic SEO that they used to be able to enjoy, because that's not there as much anymore. Joel: You mean they don't have a homepage that billions of people visit? Chad: No, yeah, yeah. And again, they're not a part of everybody's every day routines. So, this is the long game, there's no question. Joel: Well if you're a recruiter, JobAdX should be a destination site for you every day. Let's hear from those cats, and we'll talk Upwork and PerkSpot. Say that real fast a bunch of times. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of," or, "It's the PayPal of," maybe, "They're the Facebook of." In many, many cases these comparisons fall short of being close to reality. Or, even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. JobAdX: In the of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google ad sense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, persistent, and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs, and staffing firms. Real time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. JobAdX: All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, quick application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regret. JobAdX: For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficiency, and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishers and job boards. Higher rev share than other partners for a smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30-40 percent greater, and more through our scalable model. JobAdX: To partner with us, you can visit or search JobAdX.com, or email us at joinusatjobadx.com to get estimates, or begin working together. JobAdX: JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. JobAdX: Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent. JobAdX has just launched in the UK too. Chad: Instead of, I would say, yes definitely, recruiters should be checking out JobAdX. But I mean, more on the agency side of the house, RPOs. To be quite frank, Talent Acquisition, they can't spell programmatic right now. They are way too busy doing too much other shit. Joel: Come on now. Chad: No. Joel: That's not nice. Chad: No, I'm just saying they're way too busy doing too much other shit. It's not that they're not smart, it's that they do a lot of stuff. And, the RPOs, the agency staffing firms, those guys have a handle on this shit. And, that's one of the reasons why, it's their business to do it. Chad: So definitely, if you're an RPO, you're an agency, you're a staffing company, you should definitely be checking these guys out. Joel: Yeah, and if you run a job board, or some sort of publishing site, you should give them a call. They can help put some money in your pocket. Chad: Good point. Joel: Upwork- Chad: We've been talking about- Joel: One of my faves, I think. Chad: Yeah. Joel: This is an under reported story in our industry. Chad: Yeah, I agree. Joel: We talked about them going IPO. I don't have an update on that. But, they released an enterprise solution this past week. Which, I think is just a natural extension of what big companies, small companies, IT departments, and other departments are going to do. They're going to out-source contract projects, and it's probably going to be Upwork that manages that whole thing. Joel: In their press release for the announcement, they mentioned that of Fortune 500 companies, only 28% of Fortune 500 companies and notable companies utilize Upwork to find and engage free lancers. Chad: Yep. Joel: So, they have a long way to go, and a long road to snag up some of the Fortune 500 companies. I think they're going to see a ton of growth. I'm not recommending stocks, but depending on the valuation, it might be a pretty good company to get behind, going into the future. Chad: Yeah. I agree. You said in earlier Podcasts that you could actually see ... Because again, you gotta take a look at the workforce today, and how hard it is to find people. Being able to take some of these full time jobs and chunk them into projects, makes more sense, in many cases. And having a person manage your Upwork work force, that could be something that would be happening in the near future. It might be happening right now. And if it is, definitely reach out to us and let us know. We'd like to hear the story. Chad: But, it just makes good sense. You can reach out. It's on demand, it's on demand talent to be able to help you fill a specific voids. One of the things that I think we have a problem with Intown Acquisition HR is that, we've been doing things the same way for so long, we can't do them differently. Chad: So, this job has always been a full time job. Well bullshit, why does it have to be a full time job? How can you perspectively create projects out of that, and start a rolling free lancers in and out of that. And then having a person, maybe a part timer, maybe a full timer, who knows to pick up some of the responsibilities to manage that. Because, it's all about getting the project done. It's not getting the project done with a full timer or a part timer, right? Joel: Yeah. And as companies have a harder time finding talent to fill these roles, contracting globally is going to be a natural progression of how companies grow. A marketing department that says, "Hey, you know, we should maybe be doing something with Snapchat, right?" This is timely because Chad just dropped off a kid at college who only has conversations through Snapchat. Joel: So a company says, "Who knows anything about Snapchat?" Well I don't. Go to Upwork, find a Snapchat marketing expert, hire them for an hourly fee, and get them to get you up to speed or handle it for you. And when you're done with that, then they're done. You only pay them for the time. You don't pay them health benefits. It's a very natural thing that I think is gonna happen. Joel: I think you're going to see job postings for Upwork manager, if there aren't already job postings like that, but yeah, I think keep your eye on Upwork and where this is going. I'm surprised there aren't more freelance marketplaces like this. They kind of almost have a monopoly on what they're doing, so I'd be surprised if more companies don't get into it, but Upwork is really one to watch. I applaud their enterprise solution that they launched last week. Chad: Well, the only way companies are going to start using it is if they start thinking differently about work. That's it. These startups that are out there today that are incredibly nimble and they know that they have to get things out quickly, they use freelancers. It just makes sense because they are building from ground zero talent acquisition, HR, you've got to start thinking the exact same way. The market has changed, will continue to change, and it's going in this direction. So change with it. Joel: Yup. Next story. So we talked about iCims getting cash for an undisclosed sum. There were two companies this week that did disclose how much they got. And I just wanna play a new game I don't think we've ever played, and I'm just doing this on the fly. Chad: Sure. Joel: Let's play, who would you rather? This is usually played with two members of the opposite sex, and pick which one is more favorable. I won't go any deeper than that, but let's play who would you rather? Okay. Our two contestants are PerkSpot, who recently got $50 million in funding. Now this is interesting because they started as an at home business in 2006. They grew organically. This is the first money that they've taken. They essentially offer companies a way to get perks for their employees, right? Joel: So they partner with merchants like AMC Theaters or Walmart or whatever, Kohls, and they provide discounts and freebies to employees. This is pretty smart from a retention recruiting perspective. Come here and we'll give you a free whatever. It's good for merchants because they can get in front of an audience of buyers. And it's good for companies because they're offering these things to their employees. It's a pretty hot market. You see a few players in this space. Joel: So PerkSpot is our first contestant on who would you rather. Our second is ClearCompany, which got $10 million more at $60 million. ClearCompany, I know a little less about, but they're essentially an end to end CRM onboarding benefits like all in one solution. Chad: Yes. Joel: So I guess putting those two players in front of you, who would you rather? Chad: Easy, PerkSpot. And the reason being is that the all in one companies, the big gas systems, they don't generally fair well, I guess you can say, especially when it comes through to getting your money back out of that bad boy. You can take a look at applicant tracking systems like iCims that are really focused on one thing, and they're trying to do that great, but they also have a hub to be able to allow other organizations to tap into their client base in their system. Chad: That's something that I think that has legs versus Clear. On the PerkSpot side of the house though, those guys, it's not a really crowded, I would say, sector, first and foremost. Second, this is like I was talking about like with chatbots. I mean, this is something that you can be incredibly good at and you can really make it an incredibly robust set of perks, per say, sell it off. And I think that, in itself, to me, I'd put my money on that side. Joel: I'm going to agree with you in most of the points that you made, but I'm going to go with PerkSpot for one thing. Yeah, the baby's back. I'm going to go with millennials as my reason for choosing PerkSpot because this business is made for these whiny entitled millennials who think they can just go to work and get free movie tickets and free food and discounts on whatever. This business is made for millennials and God love them. They're taking over. They're making everything their bitch and PerkSpot is custom made for a generation that wants free stuff. Chad: Get off my lawn. Joel: All right, man. Let's take a quick break and hear from America's Job Exchange and we'll talk Google, I guess. Imagine that. Chad: I love it. AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women, and minorities, and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community based organizations. Want to learn more?Call us at 866-926-6284 or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com. Joel: You missed the crying baby. Admit it. Chad: Yeah. I like it better when it's only once a show versus like 16 times a show. For God's sake. Joel: All right. We'll declare a moratorium on baby crying sound effects. Chad: Thank you. Joel: Millennials or Gen Z have to be attached to the baby crying. Chad: I like that. Joel: Well G suite meeting rooms, this is something that you got excited about. What's up? Chad: Being able to take a look at what Google's doing ... So we're talking about the flank that Indeed's trying to battle against with Google for Jobs, but then we also have the APIs, which we're talking about with iCims. I mean Google is like everywhere. So they've got the candidate API, they've got the job search API. But then, what's the other arm? It's the Hire by Google, right? Chad: So Google comes out with these new tools for meeting rooms. And that was funny because Tarquin, who is now heading up, he took over, I believe, [Bogomil. Actually, he reshared this, he shared this on LinkedIn, and it just automatically made me think, this is another step toward enterprise for Hire by Google to be able to not just manage meeting rooms, but to also in this case, to be able to take a look at the meeting rooms that are going unbooked and release them so that they're available for other people. Chad: They actually have a study that shows that up to 40 percent of rooms that have been booked go unused. So now, they're putting this out there. I'm starting to kind of connect the dots. Tarquin shares it and I'm thinking, okay, how long is it going to take four G suites to start pulling this meeting rooms piece in and integrating it into Hire by Google, going more toward enterprise? Joel: So this will be a virtual meeting room, right? Because what you're talking about is a literal meeting room. Chad: I'm talking about a literal meeting room because you have to ... Obviously when you have a big company, you only have so many meeting rooms, and you have to reserve them for interviews and things of that nature. Right? So this is a management system. I mean, Outlook has one, Google has one, but being able to utilize this for interviews, individuals who were coming onsite. Joel: These could be conference rooms as well. Correct? Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: That's pretty interesting because I don't think we've ever talked about it, but Google acquired a whiteboard company awhile back where everything you wrote on the whiteboard was digitalized and archived and recorded. So it would be interesting to have meeting rooms that had these smart white boards in them and companies could take notes and whatever and have that automatically populate the content of your G suite management system or whatever. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So that's interesting. I was thinking it was digital when you first mentioned it. I don't know if you've seen Facebook's watch parties? Chad: No. What the hell is that? Joel: So for groups, I think it's all in groups right now, but groups, you can put everything like put a poll up or put a video or whatever. So they're now having where you have watch parties where you can watch with the group a video, I'm assuming a Facebook video, but I don't know if you can do YouTube or Netflix or any of those, but it's basically a way ... Joel: So let's say your group of Dungeon and Dragons friends circle this. You guys want to have a watch party of whatever. You can watch it on Facebook and chat and comment, et cetera. I saw that and I thought, how long is it going to be before company pages have watch parties and people who like a company can watch a video about working at the company or certain jobs at the company? I think that's coming. So that's what that made me think about, but totally different products. Chad: That sounds boring as hell, I think. Joel: Really? If you wanted to work ... Oh, you're full of shit. Chad: Getting together with friends and watching a video about a conference- Joel: That's totally sad, but to say I really like X company and they're going to do a watch party about what it's like to be a developer there or what it's like to be a marketer- Chad: I dig that. Joel: That makes sense in a sense. But yeah, the D&D fans watching Game of Thrones is sorta sad. Chad: You know that shit happens. All right. Joel: So do we want to do a Google search homepage updates, or we want to save that for next week? Chad: Let's go ahead and do that real quick. Joel: All right, so real quick, we talked about Google searches sort of populating Google's homepage. I personally am seeing that very frequently when I go to google.com on Chrome, if some of you're out there seeing it, we'd love to hear from you and get your opinion. I can tell you that once you click the button for a search, it goes to a Google page that's a search for that job query, right? So you see Google For Jobs, they're definitely pimping that. Any company that has great placement on Google For Jobs is definitely seeing a spike if this is a widespread tests. Joel: They're saying on the search that it's generated by your search activity on Google, which I find really hard to believe because ... So the four searches that I got, I won't remember all of them, but one was like jobs in Peoria, Illinois, accounting jobs in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I've never even been to those two cities. And the other one was totally unrelated, like entry level construction worker or something. Joel: So if Google is legitimately putting these up in front of me because of my search behavior, like it totally sucks. Either they have a long way to go on that or they just want to get those buttons up there to see if people click them. And if people click them, they'll get better at making them more relatable. But Google infamous for sort of testing these things on their site. So we may see it go widespread. We may see it gone in a couple of weeks, but it definitely is happening because I see it pretty regularly. Chad: Well, you're seeing it and I'm not. So it makes me think that it's in some sort of beta. And it's interesting because, I mean, they have your geo location. So I can't imagine why they wouldn't be focusing on Indianapolis. But yeah, again, these things are thrown out there to really test and see if there is any engagement. If there is, then I would say that you'd probably, there's more of a mature product that starts to roll out. Joel: Yeah. And I'm surprised that it's just jobs, right? It's not other stuff I search like maybe local restaurants, or movie times, or even I'm searching sport stuff all the time. Why there isn't Buckeyes first game review or something that I see. But anyway, Google has long way to go, but they're definitely doing this, and it's definitely got to be driving a decent amount of traffic to their job search component. And if they're serious about it, then just the warm up the printing press machine because the cash is kind pretty nuts around enterprise employment shit. Chad: Well, I have to say this episode was a ton more Google than I would've thought it would've been, but it actually worked out pretty well. Joel: Yeah, I think so. Are we out? Chad: We out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, The Chad, and his goofy friend, Cheese. You've been listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive shiny gold pair that are extra because, well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #GoogleforJobs #Indeed #ClearCompany #PerkSpot #Upwork #Smashfly #Emerson #chatbots #iCims

He's the grandfather of all things SEO + Marketing and platformy... It's Doug Berg people! Yea, the guy behind Techies.com, Jobs2Web and now a startup called ZAPinfo. Doug is bringing his suave and technical abilities back to the recruiting industry and hoping to disrupt the sourcing scene. What do Chad & Cheese think? Gotta listen to this Talroo exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps employers identify and source candidates with disabilities. Chad: Hey Joel. Joel: What up? Chad: Would you say that companies find it hard to attract the right candidates to apply for their jobs? Joel: Well, Jobs2Careers thought so. Chad: Jobs2Careers? You mean, Talroo. Joel: Talroo? Chad: Yeah, Talroo. T-A-L-R-O-O. Joel: What is that, like a cross between talent and a kangaroo? Chad: No, it's a cross between talent and recruiting. But Talroo was focused on predicting, optimizing, and delivering talent directly to your email or ATS. Joel: Okay, so it's totally data-driven talent attraction, which means the Talroo platform enables recruiters to reach the right talent at the right time and at the right price. Chad: Okay, so that was weirdly intuitive, but yes. Guess what the best part is? Joel: Let me take a shot here. You only pay for the candidates Talroo delivers? Chad: Holy shit. Okay, so you've heard this before. If you're out there listening in podcast land and you are attracting the wrong candidates, and we know you are, or you feel like you're in a recruiting hamster wheel and there's just nowhere to go, right? You can go to Talroo.com/attract. Again, that's Talroo.com/attract and learn how Talroo can get you better candidates for less cash. Joel: Or just go to ChadCheese.com and click on the Talroo logo. I'm all about the simple. Chad: You are a simple man. Chad: Yes, me precious, yes me precious candidate, we wants it so sweet precious, yes. Announcer: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids, the Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Hey, what's up boys and girls? We have a special treat on Firing Squad this month. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Doug Berg, welcome to the show. If I can find the applause button. Chad: There you go. Joel: Doug, as many industry experts, professionals, long timers know, the guy behind Techies, the guy behind Jobs2Web, is sitting on a pile of money as we speak because he sold those companies. Doug, welcome to the show. We're going to talk about your new company, ZAPinfo today. Doug: Love to be here guys. Thanks for having me back. I feel like a throwback to the mid-90s. This is awesome. Chad: Yeah, no. Dude, this is totally a high school reunion. You know that right? All three of us half drunk off our ass at the bar. Joel: We're all sober, by the way. I'll add that to the show. Chad, you want to read the rules and we'll dive right into it? Chad: Yeah. Okay, Doug. You're going to have a two minute pitch for ZAPinfo. At the end of two minutes, you'll hear the bell. Then Joel and I are going to hit you with rapid fire questions. If your answers aren't concise, Joel's going to hit you with crickets, which means you need to tighten your game up [crosstalk 00:03:16]. We're getting bored around here. At the end of Q&A, you're going to get judged, either with big applause, which means you have exceeded expectations. Joel: Well on your way. Chad: Golf clap, you're on your way but you've got some work to do. Or the firing squad, take your shit and go home because that's not what you want to hear. That's the firing squad. It's time to buckle up and pitch. Joel, start that timer big boy. Joel: You ready Doug? Doug: I'm ready. Joel: Let's do it. You're on. Doug: Awesome guys. Well, I'm excited to tell you about ZAPinfo, which is a tool that we've created that is instead of an artificial intelligent tool, we're an information automation tool. Instead of AI, we're IA. The reason we built this thing is because recruiters are bogged down with still too much busy shit every single day. They're burning cycles either posting jobs or trying to grab resumes and contact information. They're using 87 tools to try to get the information they need. They're bundling that crap up, they're sending it in demand. All of these tools are going crazy right now and everyone's got a career site, and an ATS, and a CRM, and a recruitment marketing platform, of which I founded part of the business, but none of these systems really at the end of the day talk to each other. Doug: We wanted to build a single tool that would really help bring true productivity to the recruiters, right? They can use ZAPinfo to instantly zap contacts and profile information, put it into any of their applications, basically share that data across all of their applications, and then instantly find the direct contact information. It actually has a huge enrichment capability that instantly finds the LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter identify information. Kind of like what Connectifier used to do, but it's in a very simple and easy to use tool that any recruiter can instantly start using right away. Doug: We're being rapidly adopted by hundreds of companies and thousands of recruiters to literally give them hours of their time back every day and to also help track and measure their sourcing cost, because no one seems to know exactly how much productivity your recruiters should generate on a daily basis, or how many hires they're getting out of their expensive sourcing tools. We actually close that loop, as the recruiters using the tool, marry the source data with the spend data, and finally at the end of the day can help companies maximize and measure how they're sourcing teams are operating on any given day. Joel: Boom. Now, where can I find out more Doug? Doug: The can go to ZAPinfo.io or ZAPinfo.app and be able to ... You may us it for free. They can come down and download the tool and give it a whirl to be able to see if it's going to be something that can work for them and their application. Joel: All right. He's all yours, Chad. Chad: That's good shit. Who at the end of the day has become your target market? Is it the staff agencies, RPOs, or are you really going straight at TA with this? Doug: We're going to anyone that's doing recruiting, mostly going after larger sourcing teams, right? A lot of our earlier customers are big companies like the Best Buys, and United Health Groups, and those folks, but we also work with a lot of these RPO groups like Titus, and Paired Sourcing, and a lot of those guys that are really doing that deep sourcing contract and lead generation and qualification capabilities, where our tool can take literally hours of work and make it just a few clicks. They're really good users, as well as a lot of the big staffing firms and agencies. Chad: At this point, I mean, it's like anybody. Anybody who wants to use ZAPinfo, come at us. But from your standpoint, and I know and I understand, if money's coming in, who cares where it's coming from? But from your standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, from an outreach standpoint, from a sales standpoint, who are you targeting as priority? Doug: Yeah. I mean, those ... From an inside/out go to market, we are targeting kind of the larger corporate, larger staffing and the RPO groups. Chad: Gotcha. Doug: The other thing is, we're partnering. We're actually working as a companion application for almost all of the ATS systems, as well as recruitment marketing and CRM applications who may be used to have an application that could do a lot of this stuff, but for whatever reason they haven't been able to continue utilizing those, or they didn't have the facility that we have. In a lot of cases, they're actually bundling us together with their tools because we kind of act like a MuleSoft or Zapier-type of an application, right? Doug: We mitigate the need for you to have this six month $100,000 integration between your CRM and ATS, because we literally make it two click easy for people to share the information between those systems. It's an instant on thing. We actually can either work, partner strategic with those firms, or we can just work without them. Because I don't know if you guys remember how hard it was to get the Taleos and the other guys to actually- Chad: Oh yeah. Doug: Do integrations and stuff. Chad: Yep. Doug: I just finally got to the point, "I can't believe these systems don't talk to each other." We actually built instead of an API, we built what we called a BPI, which is a browser protocol interface that allows people to instantly and automatically fill in using the, sometimes horrible and crappy interfaces that are on these systems. The ZAPinfo tool can learn it and instantly automate it so in one mouse click you're filling this data point out. Sometimes saving the recruiter 20 to 30 minutes of time, which we've talked to so many talent leaders, you guys, and they literally, their biggest problem is not having users using the systems that they're working with. Doug: They're literally back to using spreadsheets, using Google Sheets, sending emails, and doing everything except using the very applications that were supposed to bring productivity. By solving that, we actually can help their investments in these applications become fruitful again because we actually take them from crappy to what we call zappy, where they can- Crowd: Boo. Chad: Oh, that was ... Yeah. Oh, you had me until that one Doug. Oh, you had me until that one. Oh, Jesus. Doug: All right, man. I'm a marketing guy. Joel: Doug, I want to talk about some news items that came through recently. You are officially now the artist formerly known as WebClipDrop. I don't know if it's something in the water in Minneapolis where Prince is from, but this is something that you guys have done recently. Talk about the name change. Why ZAPinfo? Why the dot io at the end, as opposed to a dot com? You also got a little bit of money to the tune of $1.25 million. Talk about what you guys have done. You're now the CEO. Update us on what's going on. Doug: Yep. Every single company I've started, you guys may know this, I've always started with one name and changed it. JobKeys became Techies. HotGigs became Jobs2Web. TrackIt became MyAlerts and we really are doing the same thing here. WebClipDrop, you kind of got to start a business with one name and let it take on its personality and character and let customers tell you what they think the name should be. I'm a big winner ... I love descriptive names of things. Where we started with WebClickDrop thinking, "Hey, this is easy. It's a web clipboard. People can clip things and then drop things," right? That was pretty easy, but man, people would just mutilate the word, you guys. I mean, some of our best customers were calling it WebClickDrop and Click, all kinds of stuff. Doug: We needed a faster easier name and one that was a little bit more fun and suited for the bigger story that we were going after. That's really where we landed on ZAPinfo, right? People want speed, they want productivity. They just want to zap things and have them work and we felt like the name really embraced what we're after, which is this ability to, "I want to drop my application in. I want to have it be zapping productivity and results to my teams and to the people." That's really what drove most of the name change. Yes, I came over. I'm effectively here as of August 1st running and building the business full-time. I would love to say this is my last startup, but I said that about the last business. Doug: But I'll tell you, it's great to come back to the recruiting and talent and even ... We do a lot with sales and marketing as well, but it's really fun to come back to the talent industry and kind of act like the distribution cap, if you will, because we really get interesting visibility guys on the backend. Just like Uber kind of has what they call their God view. I kind of get something like that, because as we have thousands of users every day zapping talent off the boards, and off of search engines, and off directories, and uploading lists, and all that other stuff, and watching that data kind of flow like the Matrix in and out of all these applications to see where are people getting use, where is information traveling to as it goes through the recruiting process, and understanding and analyzing the intelligence. Doug: We've got a big kind of AI tool that's studying all these profiles and looking at the types of talent, the categories, the geographies, the experience levels, where are those things getting sourced from? At some point, it'll be really fun for us to be able to provide that data intelligence back to the talent acquisition communities to help them understand really what does the time to fill look like, and what sources are the best sources for talent, and what types of companies and things are you best going to be focusing after. Beyond just being a fun little application that makes it easy for me to zap a resume in and out, right? Behind that is a tremendous amount of intelligence that we can garner over time as we get to critical mass. Joel: The money, who wrote you a check and what are you going to do with it? Doug: Yeah. I've been fortunate enough to raise a little over $125 million so far in my businesses, and so I've got some street cred with the venture world and was really fortunate to get a- Doug: ... Venture World and was really fortunate to get a company called Rally Ventures, which is Minneapolis based, but also San Francisco based, so they're the only firm I believe that has those two connecting points, which is important. But they're very big in the technology space. They were some of the early investors in Jigsaw, and a couple of business models that were really close to what we're doing. Seven Peaks Ventures is out of the Oregon marketplace, and they're also very deep in the technology and data space, and then lastly it's a group called Great North Labs, which is one of these venture firms that's right up here in Minneapolis, just getting started, and we wanted to make sure they were involved to try and give them some love. And of course, myself and a couple that are Angels have funded it to this point and we're also participants in this round as well. Joel: And what are you gonna do with the money? Doug: Yeah, so the money is really largely helping us scale very quickly. So we picked up Susan Dunham, who was my VP, one of my big sales leaders at Jobs2Web, and was a rock star. She's with me now. She's already leading the group. We've also picked up a sales account manager. Peter's doing more with partners and channels. Lynette Berg, my wife, is actually our Chief Happiness Officer, and her expertise is knowledge bases, and onboarding customers, and supporting web applications. So she's already built out our whole training library and our knowledge base. Chad: So you're putting the band back together is what I'm hearing. Doug: We got some of the band back together, and of course you know, I've gotten calls from every event manager from HR Tech to Source Cloud to whoever, is all lining up here and we're certainly gonna be participants in a lot of the shows and events. But really, we wanna do a lot of these local events, guys. Not always just the big show stuff, like we're sponsoring the I think it's called the S7 event up in Seattle, right? And those are our people, right? Those really deep, hardcore, Jerry Langhans kinds, Marvin Smiths kinds of people that are using the tool every day, constantly emailing us saying make it do this and that and I think you guys know I'm kind of a relentless innovator I love to hear from customers what feature they want next and put it live within 7 days or less because I think that's what wins at the end of the day, right? Getting in these 2 year product cycles with crap, I mean you gotta almost have an F5 button in your development team. So I'm really fortunate, I've got some of the best developers I've ever worked with behind me on this one. Chad: So within the system itself can I go and, talk about the enrichment property, right, so can I go into my Apple contracting system and then look at individuals who are like 6 months maybe even older and can I enrich that data or maybe even new contacts that are pushing to my ATS, can I enrich out of my ATS? Doug: Yeah, sometimes the very first place a person sees a person is when they've applied, right? And because application processes can be really shitty, they might've only given you their name, their business card, and their current employers so what you can do is highlight the name of the person, right click on them, and Zap Info will instantly take you to their LinkedIn, their Twitter, their Facebook, their GitHub. Whatever social properties you want and you just hit enrich and it'll literally just go and pull all that information and then you can just literally hit edit on the guy and paste and it'll refill out all of the information. So everything people were doing manually around that right, cause you would just do those things and copy and paste and all that other stuff, that's everything that we've automated with the tool. Chad: So can I just set that to do it automatically as I go in so that I don't- because again we're here to- these are still tasks that recruiters have to do before they actually make the call. So can I just set up to do it automatically as soon as I get into a system or maybe somebody applies to my Rex, can I get the system to automatically enrich the contacts as they get into the system so that I don't even have to do that one step? Doug: Alright, so you just passed your interview for product manager. You've been peaking at our 2019 whiteboard. So this year we're really working on what I'll call the outside-in method of enriching data, right? So it's a lot of that kind of stuff and we already have built the API frameworks that we're building data bridges that are API friendly to a lot of the bigger platforms, the SATs, the IBMs, all that kind of stuff. And as we do that, right, we are gonna build what I'll call a punch-out or an embedded system so that, maybe if even somebody joins my talent community and all I have is their email address, the Zap Info tool will take that data and fill in all the rest of the information. Almost real time, so those are things that we're gonna be putting into the 2019 roadmap. Chad: Doug, we talk a lot about on the legal challenges of scraping LinkedIn, you're probably familiar with the Hiq legal case. Talk about that, Microsoft owns GitHub now as well, so I assume that GitHub will be a little tougher to start- to stop sort of grabbing information. Is that a threat to your business, does it keep you at night? Give us your thoughts. Doug: Yeah, so look, the good news is we didn't build a big scraping thing, right, that can help us to harvest all the public profiles and then basically try to get people to come to us and search for data so they don't have to go to LinkedIn, that's not what this is at all. I mean, I think you guys would agree for especially people who have bought LinkedIn recruiter licenses, there's a legitimate business need for that recruiter once they've found somebody and built a relationship and that relationship evolves into the candidate applying or wanting to move forward. You gotta get the data off of the social network and into your internal application. So that's a legitimate business need and, if anything, what we've done is just made that kind of person by person record by record data movement a little bit easier, right. Doug: Cause today people are dropping the PDF file and then reparsing it into their application system which is also a violation of the terms of service, or their copying and pasting data field by field into their ATS which takes thirty minutes and it's a total pain in the butt. And at the end of the day, we're closer to the MAC operating or Windows operating system where you're just copying and pasting data over into those applications. I don't think that LinkedIn's gonna sue MAC or Microsoft and say shut down the copy-paste feature because that breaks our terms of service and so at the end of the day, it's really on the users themselves to not violate the terms of service, right? We follow that, we actually have controls in place in the Zap Info System that even if a company said look we don't any of our users to able to even clip a profile, we can prevent that. So we actually, by being in the browser, can help companies to deploy whatever policy they want around when, how people contact folks. Doug: Actually some of the biggest problems we're seeing, today, is 8 recruiters from the same company might all recruit the same guy on LinkedIn and it's spamming their users, right. LinkedIn is not doing a lot to help prevent this, where as this Zap Info System will easily be able to do that, right. So they can deploy business rules that says, whether their on the LinkedIn or the same guy is on Monster or the other, you know, somewhere, Facebook, I can literally help the recruiters of a company to say whoa, hold on, maybe 3 of us have already been in touch with this person let's have you not reach out to them so that we can make sure we've got a better candidate experience with the universe, if you will, from the outside in of our company instead of just everyone going crazy and firing stuff up. Chad: And you should be able to know that out of the applicant tracking system, right? So you should be able to use a primary signal out of the ATS. Doug: Yeah, but you know what that's a- it's a difficult thing because one recruiters aren't checking into the ATS before they go off and start rifling, you know connecting requests out to everybody so you have to be a black box inside of where they're doing their outreach and everyday living, right? So we have to be able to right in their dashboard, if you will, of communication which is the browser. And then secondly, you know, one of the biggest things is, I don't know about you guys, but some companies are spending a lot of money on LinkedIn and other big networks. If I asked them what's your RY or how you measuring the effectiveness, they have no idea. And so, but the beauty is, when people are zapping someone out of LinkedIn recruiter and putting them into their smart recruiters we, just like in the old applicant days remember Chad, we stopped asking applicants where they came from? We're doing the same thing here, we basically hard-tag the source of those candidates into the system and putting attribution around who the recruiter was and what the source was and then marry that data together. Doug: At the end of the day, LinkedIn should be super jacked because their companies are gonna get way more hires out of the system, they're gonna get much more credit for it, and therefore be able to drive even more and higher subscription rates in the future. Chad: I can actually take a look at all of my recruiters and I can take a look at activity and also productivity because of the attribution of the candidates who are coming through the pipelines and who is actually getting hired into those positions? Doug: Exactly. Today, if you do a sourcing report, even in like your greenhouse or your lever, the data fields are typically never filled in. So you get like 1 guy on the report cause a recruiter was feeling generous and put the source code in, whereas all of a sudden after the first 3 days because it's automatically being done as a part of the automation process, the reports come to life. So they're coming to life inside of their core system where we've built these great dashboards that can also marry up the data and help them get visibility to them on our side as well. Chad: Doug, there's a ton of competition in this arena, not just with start-ups and players like you, but we look at, you know, Google, Facebook, LinkedIn which we talk about a lot on this show with matching, just post your job and it'll magically go into our database and deliver you candidates that match your requirements on a silver platter. How do you differentiate yourselves in a very competitive market, to cut through the clutter and really get to the customer? Doug: You're right. You know, there is eighty little micro-competitors in this space. And at the end of the day, we never want to be an application guys, we always just want to make other applications better so that's what's kind of interesting about being a productivity or companion application, our job is actually to just help these things all work together better. But we've also combined a lot of stuff, right. So I mean a lot of people were using Data Miner and a bunch of these tools to try to capture data and there's a whole bunch of tools that help you to find email addresses and phone numbers, like Ushes and all these other guys and we actually work with a lot of them. So, literally behind the scenes, we will take and use almost every API we can get our hands on; from full contact, to pit bull, to clear bit those are the data engines behind how we're doing the enrichment. But a recruiter that used to have to do those one at a time and then compare the fields and see which one got the email right; that's hours of work. Our thing does it all in one blink of the eye. There's a lot of other folks that will say then take this data and try to integrate it into you Taleo, your ATS or whatever. Again that whole thing is kind of what we've smashed together here and put into a single application. Doug: Chad, your point, while we're doing these data transactions and doing source mapping, that's great, but we're also gonna be adding kind of a Fitbit for recruiting kind of a thing. So because we're in the browser, I can, beyond, you know, the hard action of clipping and transferring profile data, I'll be able to actually say hey this recruiter over here, he's the guy that's on LinkedIn, he viewing this many profiles, he's doing this many searches, he's connected with this many people, he's had this many interactions cause all of that data just lives on those networks and none of it actually gets analyzed and looked at for those key performance indicators about what makes a great recruiter or what justifies a LinkedIn recruiter seat or even, as you guys know, you might buy a hundred thousand dollar job board subscription and find out 9 months in no one's even logged into the goddamn thing. So, you know, we want to be the tool that as people are making these investments, we're literally giving you a weekly report as that leader and as individual actors within those systems to say, you know, your company bought you this tool and this access and here's how much you're using it. Here's how much you're using it against other people in the company to try to gamify and actually bring productivity enhancements to those investments that they're making. Chad: So how do you cut through the actual clutter and say hey look Zap you need- everybody needs to use Zap and here's why? I understand that you're looking at all these different AI solutions that do waking the dead and enrichment and all this other fun stuff, but this is the 1 reason why we stand above everybody else. Doug: Yeah, look I mean, I'm an investor in a lot of the AI businesses, but I think, I think they serve a very different function, right. What they can do to automate the recruiting process is fantastic, right. But at the end of the day, all of that interaction and activity still has to be translated and come into my internal systems and recruiters are Doug: ... to be translated and come into my internal systems. And recruiters are still gonna be doing business around information, whether it be profiles and contact information, and setting up interviews, and debriefing interviews, and onboarding people. And all of those data transactions are things that AI and bots are many years away from being able to just automatically do. And if anything, we'll work in conjunction with them. We've actually got some really neat partnering things coming up where ZAPinfo, our IA tool, our information automation tool can actually work with an artificial intelligence tool to really get you close to what might be a full cycle recruiting solution that is something we might mitigate a lot of these platforms to be in real trouble here in about two to four years. Joel: Doug, what does sourcing look like in five to seven years? Doug: You know, Joel, I think we're finally gonna get back to relationships are gonna count a lot. The whole promise of the social network was that when I link to you and you link to me or if I friend you and you friend me, that there's aa relationship that happens there and I can maintain it, I can update it through my ambient awareness of everything that's happening and manage a bigger group of people without losing connections to them. And I'm astonished, even when we work with some recruiting teams today and we show them how they can use ZAPinfo to not only find, connect, and capture and start stuff, they still want to kind of stay behind this wall. They still don't want to hit the connect button on LinkedIn, they just want to hit the in mail button on LinkedIn, because they don't really want ... They want to get feedback on a transaction or a requisition, but they don't really want to have a relationship with people. Doug: And I think that's gotta change. I really think that if you get rid of all the noise of a recruiter and they really can build kind of their own personal community as an extension of the corporate brand and maintain relationships with people as they go through their entire career process, I just think that that's gonna be where we've reached the apex of what's possible in a socially connected world where it's super relevant and super rich, and feedback is real and full, and we get away from this black box nobody ever hears anything to a super white glove kind of a service where recruiters are valued based upon ... Imagine interviewing a recruiter and literally there's, you're bringing literally this portfolio of all these relationships that you have that you could help bring to a company. I think that's gonna be kind of where the big value of who a source and who a recruiter is in the future. Chad: That sounds like the end game. I mean, from my side. But when you look at humans, we're lazy, right? So, this makes it easier for them not to be so lazy 'cause they can get that data, but still they have to go through that manual process in some cases. But what you're saying is endgame, that's gonna be something that's plugged into their process. Is that what I'm hearing? Doug: I would challenge you to say I've not met many lazy recruiters. I have met a lot of intolerant recruiters. You know what I mean? I think we can confuse laziness with intolerance because we have forced them to work with shitty applications and bad processes, and waiting around and putting limitations on them and all these other things. In a world where everyone's got access to the same people, everyone's got access to everybody, then people that know how to use those platforms and can put rocket boots on and can run faster and do more, and get rid of the friction points, are gonna be the ones that really have a competitive advantage. Doug: And that's where I saw, for our ability to run across, if you will. It's kind of like have you ever seen that ... what's that game show where the big balls ... run across all these big balls. Wipe Out, right? That's in essence, it's in essence- Chad: I was hoping you were talking about Wipe Out and not some foreign game show that Joel watches. Joel: Hey. Doug: But I think that the people that can navigate those things and really drive results, people love to get shit done and their frustration level and absolute anger ... anger level, disgust with their application and their stack and the technologies that get thrust on them are everything that we're trying to eliminate as we bring the platform to bear. Joel: Doug, Chad asked about one endgame. I'm gonna ask about another. What is the endgame for the company? Are you gonna flip this baby like your other companies? Are you in this thing for the long haul? And after that, breakdown pricing for me. Doug: Yeah, look. I mean, we're just getting started here. And we even just got our funding and all of our developers on full time, so I'm always a put your head down and build value in the business and get it to scale, so we've got a good couple of years of just open field running right now. And it's awesome. I'm literally on eight to ten demos a day, and these are big companies. And when we show them, it's always fun as you guys know to show a technology where people didn't know they needed it and in the minute they see it ... Like our demos last 18 minutes. And people hang up the phone and say, "Goddammit, send me a proposal." Doug: We've even had one gal, dead silent on the phone after we showed her some of the functionality. I'm like, "Hello, did I lose you?" And she's like, "No, I hate to admit it, I just peed my pants." Joel: What? Doug: So, I was just like, "I'll tell our developer. He'll love that." But it's really fun to bring that kind of very simple technology, it's an instant on thing, instant ROI thing, but we still, like I said, are just getting started, Joel, and for the foreseeable future, we're gonna just keep building this. As you guys know, I got a lot of folks I know in the business. We can help scale it pretty quickly. And yet we do well. Even with pricing, you mentioned, Joel, we're less than a cup of coffee a day. We charge $40 a month for unlimited utilization of the tool at a user level. That's fantastic, right? And we have some companies that literally save 30, $40,000 per user per year in just either productivity or direct contact costs, and then can help them get visibility to stuff they've just never seen before. So, it's a very affordable solution. Doug: It may not be that cheap this time next year, but in our first year here, it's a great time to get your company on board and get everybody trained up and utilizing the technology. Joel: Beautiful. That's the bell, Doug, and you know what that means. It's time to face the firing squad, and we're gonna give it to Chad. Chad: All right, Doug. I've got to say that I have a soft spot in my heart for Doug Berg, just so everybody knows. I think, dude, the integrations, the BPI piece is legit. Focusing on information automation, the IA piece, because AI really isn't there yet, so being able to create that bridge is a great story, and that is incredibly smart. Focusing on the staffing and RPO side of the house, really focusing your sales efforts there, I can't say that enough, right out of the gate, because they're looking for efficiencies and that's exactly what you can provide. Along with, here's the big thing for them, and you probably already know this. Recruiter attribution, source attribution, and then being able to show them, almost like their own very own god mode within their ecosystem. Chad: The only thing that I need to be able to see this thing just explode, and I know that if anybody can do it, you can do it, is the automated enrichment piece. So, at that point, when you guys get there, I need to know that. Right now you guys are getting a huge golf clap, because I think you're definitely on your way. As soon as you hit that automated enrichment piece, it's gonna be like a sky rocket, dude. Doug: Couldn't agree more. Joel: All right. I'm up. Little story about Doug and his last company, Jobs2Web. Jobs2Web launched shortly after I launched a company called HRSEO, which both sought to capitalize on the SEO trend at the time, and I always felt like I knew SEO better than you guys, Doug, but you guys executed your asses off. You had the contacts, the wherewithal, the money. Execution was key in that business. I don't know the Techies company as well as Jobs2Web, but I really love companies in our space that understand the market, that have contacts existing already, that understand the money game, that you don't want to go raise $50 million tomorrow, that raising $1.25 to get us to our next milestone makes sense. Joel: So, for those reasons alone, I'm a big fan of what you're doing. I think that as a business, this is an incredibly competitive space, but I trust that you'll have the team, and the knowledge, and the historical sort of perspective to say, "Here's the pivot that we need to do. Here's the direction we need to go. Here's what we need to build." And for those reasons alone, I'm gonna give you a big applause. Chad: Woo-hoo. Joel: Now, what do you have to say for yourself? Doug: I couldn't be more happy that you guys had me on the show today. I feel like I've avoided the shark bite in my ass, which is always a good thing. But all due credit back to you, Joel. Hearing your early SEO talks and what you were doing there was a huge thing that kept inspiring us to keep going, and what you were doing down the consulting thread we were doing from a platform thread, and I think that's the only difference between kind of what ended up being where we went. Frankly, the Jobs2Web business, while it started with SEO, very quickly pivoted and went into a full platform play to become the first recruitment marketing platform. And look at what's happened. Doug: There's all these guys now. Smash Fly and Phenom and Jobe. I just love it. I love watching that continued innovation happen and I think the biggest thing that's interesting from my point of view is you guys remember, industries used to love enterprise software where everything was integrated. We're all sitting and waiting and Oracle bought Taleo and we all thought every ... I think that's the thing I see most on the top level is that a lot of these executive leaders are still waiting for a single platform that's fully integrated. Joel: Nope. Doug: It's not gonna happen. If anything, there's a proliferation of applications that's happening, and the very smart people are the ones that are gonna learn how to synthesize, not integrate these systems and be able to buy applications that can seamlessly take friction out and add value to each other. And that, to me, I think is where the smarter strategy plays are gonna happen in the future, and we're excited to be a part of it. Chad: Yeah. How does it feel to be the grandfather of recruitment marketing platforms? Doug: How did I go to being a grandfather, dude? Jesus, man. Founder, innovator. Stay with the baby stuff, none of this grandpa stuff. Grandpa. Godfather. Joel: Yeah. Hey, Doug. Tell us again where we can find out more about ZAPinfo. Doug: Hey, we'd love to have everybody come and give it a whirl at ZAPinfo.io, which is ... stands for input/output. Come on, Joel. You know this. IO, man. Chad: I thought it was Indian Oceans for the country code, right? No? Joel: Good lord. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Announcer: This has been the firing squad. Be sure to subscribe to The Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys at ChadCheese.com today. That's www.ChadCheese.com. #FiringSquad #Talroo #ZAPinfo #Jobs2Web #Techiescom

Note: In this podcast, Joel misspoke. After looking back at Todd Raphael's reaction, turns out he did not say "fuck." Just wanted to clear that up. It's been a BUSY... BUSY... BUSY WEEK... and the boys are talkin': - Rumors Google is adding job searches to an unusual place - Dice earnings aren't great - Companies really ARE BIASED AGAINST hiring people with disabilities - Titanic shifts with immigration and corp movement - CareerBuilder is abandoning its posh downtown Chicago - NFL starts equality in cheerleading? - Oh, and Slack is raising (again) Enjoy, and support our awesome sponsors, America's Job Exchange, Sovren and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Yo, yo, yo peeps. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Striking fear in the hearts of shitty vendors since 2017. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, Google is feeding, Dice is losing, and Career Builder is shrinking. Yes, career Builder shrinkage, I said it. Don't go anywhere, we'll be right back after a word from JobAdX. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of, or it's the PayPal of, maybe we're the Facebook of," in many, many cases these comparisons fall short to being close to reality, or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google Adsense for jobs. That's means we're an efficient, consistent, and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offer recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs, and staffing firms, real-time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. JobAdX: All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click, or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We are not set in regret. For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of pragmatic efficiency and premium page ad position. We also provide publishers and job boards, higher rev share than other partners through our smarter pragmatic platform. JobAdX: In many cases, 30 to 40% greater and all through our scalable model. To partner with us, you can visit or search JobAdX.com or email us at, joinus@JobAdX.com to get estimates or begin working together. JobAdX: JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter pragmatic for your needs. Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK too. Joel: I got a rant to start off the show if that's all right. Chad: Oh, no. That's probably the best way to start it. Joel: It probably is. I'm a little feisty today. So, I've been blogging for a long time. People may know my work, they may not. But I've been doing this for a while, and I've come across some level of respect, I think, with my work. We've been podcasting for over a year, we have a great following. People who matter are sitting down and interviewing with us, right? Like we have CEOs, CMOs, owners, founders, and I think there's an impression or an assumption on the part of vendors that you and I will be at HR Tech this year. For the mere fact that vendors go to shows to show their wears, to talk to customers and prospects, they also go to these shows to talk to the press. Joel: And for whatever reason, HR Tech in its wisdom deemed you and I unworthy of a press pass. Both in my capacity as a podcaster and my capacity as a writer for ERE, which I would think is a very well respected organization, in terms of content, right? Chad: Yes. Joel: My rant is simply that I think HR Tech is really dumb in not letting press people like you and me into a show. And for the vendors that are reaching out to me almost on a daily basis just assuming that I'm gonna be there and saying, "Hey, let's grab a drink at Hr Tech," or, "Hey, we'd love to show you our new stuff, can we set up a time to meet?" Like I tell those people no, I'm not gonna do that because I'm not gonna be there because HR Tech is kind of being a dick about letting press into it's show. So, that's my rant. I apologize to the vendors that would like to talk to me and chat. And anyone else that's been dissed by HR Tech, but that's the reality and that's why we're not there. Chad: Yeah, so I actually got a text last night and said, "Hey, we'll talk about it an HR Tech." And I was like, "Yeah, well HR Tech said that they're not providing Joel and I media passes." And he responded back with, "What the fuck? Are you fucking kidding me?" That was the response. Joel: Yeah, I mean my editor at ERE, Todd Raphael, who is very well respected, been doing this for a long time, he assumed that I was going as well. And when I told him no, I got denied a press pass, his response was pretty much the same, "What the fuck? Like I thought you'd be a shoo-in." But that's not the case so fuck it, HR Tech, I don't need your show. Fuck off. I feel so much better. Joel: Let's go to shout-outs. Chad: Yeah, shout-outs. I'm gonna start them off with our favorite URL, goCANVAS.io, AKA, Canvas, love those guys. Joel: We do love Canvas. Chad: We've gotta get a new URL, a new brand or something. I love the CANVAs brand but the URL, it's horrible guys. New t-shirts and beer koozies for Chad. Joel: Yes Chad: Yes, for Chad. No, after this whole bullshit ZipRecruiter sending you alcohol and I don't get any? No. It's all for me now. I'm playing the Joel Chessman game here. Joel: Oh, really? I've got some new Beemer-y shwag that maybe you won't be getting the next time. Chad: Okay, maybe we can do a barter. Yeah, Canvas, we love you man. You meet those guys regularly for like drinks and updates and stuff, and I'm stuck here with a one year old. Joel: Yeah, and it's beer and it's food and it's Indianapolis, so it's awesome. Chad: Also, a big shout-out to Hung Lee for obviously putting some love for Chad And Cheese out in the Recruiting Brain Food, if you aren't subscribed to Recruiting Brain Food, I don't know what your fucking problem is. Go out there, check it out. It's good stuff. He purees just a bunch of stuff and feeds it to you, brain food, once a week. Joel: I think Hung might be a good guest. Hung, if you're listening and you wanna come on and chime in about stuff, let us know. Go to Chad Cheese or hit us up on social media. Chad: Yup. Joel: I've never heard him speak or give interviews, so he may be one of these like reclusive guys that never talks, which is fine. But if you'd like to come on, let us know. Joel: I'm gonna give a shout-out to a webinar that we're giving next week, the 15th. 2 p.m. Eastern, with NAS, sponsored by Talroo. Chad: Talroo. Joel: One of our sponsors. Love those guys. Again, talking about great swag, Talroo. But if you are interested in high frequency hiring, and who isn't these days? We're gonna do a webinar with Chad, NAS and me. And talking about all that good stuff. You can sign up at Chadcheese.com if you haven't already. Otherwise, you'll probably get an email at some point if you're subscribed to nay degree to our show. Chad: Yes, and actually just drinking beer out of my Talroo glass that is laser etched with Chad on it. That laser etching on the Talroo logo and Chad, that's good shwag. Chad: Shout out to Chase Wilson, and this is his tweet, "Listening to Chad and Cheese is always entertaining, but listening to them talk baby bathrobes at half speed, has to be one of the more entertaining podcast moments I've had in a while, #HalfBaked." Joel: What kind of sicko gets pleasure out of listening to us speak in super slow motion? I'm thinking maybe some meds are in store for this guy. Chad: Yeah, well, I mean Chase isn't that quick in the first place. So everything that he does is really ... he's gotta take it in slow and I appreciate that. So you listen Chase, you listen any way you like. Joel: Fair enough, fair enough. If you're headed to TAtech next month and you're a vendor and you'd like to be interviewed by Chad and Cheese, we're doing something with Peter Clayton in video. There's nothing on the site yet, so if you're interested in being interviewed by us on video, really cool thing that we're doing, hit you sup on chadcheese.com. Or social media and we'll get you guys more details. Chad: Yeah, I think it's gonna be kind of like a between two ferns kind of thing. Or between the ferns. Joel: In between two idiots, I think is what we're gonna call it. Between two beers. Chad: That's a good one. Joel: Between two kegs. Yeah. Chad: Yeah, so JobOrDoctor, big shout out because he's always in a tweeting frenzy, so I gotta give him love. Rothberg, even Rothberg had a Shaker call out, this wasn't a shout out, this was a call out. He said, "You're team over at Shaker does great work including job board, you build, manage, you do all this stuff. But during your podcast interview, you said you pretty much gotta stay in your lane, people should be staying in your lane, and being an advertising agency, that's kind of out of your lane, right?" So that was a pretty cool call out by Steven. And him and Joe got on some kind of tweet back and forth online. So good stuff, man. Chad: #ChadCheese, if you guys aren't, use it. Check it out and get in the conversation. Joel: So Joe Shaker and Steven Rothberg in the octagon, who you taking? Chad: That's a hard one. It depends if Joe brings all his kids. Joel: But if Rothberg brings Faith, his wife, it could be an even fight. Chad: No, that's not even a question. If you said Faith, right? I don't care who we throw in, she's a fiery redhead, she will kick anybody's ass. Joel: Fair enough. Chad: That's all there is to it. Joel: Fair enough. Chad: Yes. Joel: Shout out to John Cristoff Shanard, I hope I'm saying that correctly, in Quebec, Canada. John Cristoff let me know that our email's going to a spam filter. I have to say to that, "Welcome to email marketing in 2018." I'm sure a lot of people are getting marketing messages in spam. I don't know what the solution is, maybe we need a text Chad Cheese to a short code and we'll text updates to people, I don't know? But marketing is hard and email marketing is even harder. Chad: Yeah, yeah. I totally get that. The best thing to do is just subscribe to the podcast so you don't have to actually click on anything, it just automatic. Your notifications, it's all there. That's the best way to do it. But yeah- Joel: And then they'll get The Shred too. Chad: And they'll get The Shred, yeah. And everybody loved The Shred. Joel: I love The Shred. Chad: That being said, Gordon Burns, the CMO over at Bullhorn was on the latest interview for our Nexxt exclusive. Just dropped earlier this week, Gordon shared some marketing survey knowledge, dropped some knowledge on us. If you haven't checked out that podcast, and you're into marketing, definitely Gordon Burns, CMO over at Bullhorn, he's a good time. Joel: Gordo. Chad: Yup. Joel: Not to be surprised with the Scottish Gordon, right? That's another Gordon. Chad: Yes, yes. That's Adam Gordon by the way. And last but not least for me, Thelma and Louise Triance, no actually it's just Louise Triance, over at UK Recruiter. She and I will be talking Google for Jobs and talking questions from all of commerce. It'll be on the sight, so if you wanna go to Chad Cheese, register, definitely be a part of that. We'll be talking about Google for Jobs and other Googly stuff, they've got so much shit to talk about right now. It's pretty fun. Joel: Yup. Oh, and shout outs saying if you haven't voted for us on the TA Tech awards for best podcast, blogging, whatever, do it. Head on over to Chad Cheese, click on the link, give us a vote. We'd much appreciate it. Chad: Do it. Joel: And with that, let's get totally he news, shall we? Chad: Bring it. Joel: Shrinkage at Career Builder. All right. Crain's Chicago, last week reported that Career Builder is trading and it's plush downtown Chicago digs for something further west of the city. I'm not that attuned to Chicago's geography, but they're basically downsizing their office from roughly 160,000 square feet to about 100,000 square feet. So if you're doing math at home, I'm thinking that's like a 40% decrease, something like that. Joel: Yeah, a lot of layoffs there, they're pulling back. They had a really nice office there in Chicago, downtown Chicago. Chad: Oh, God yeah. Joel: So the dumpster fire for Career Builder continues. Chad: So in Broadbean style, they're going straight to the ghetto. Joel: Ghetto time, without the beach. Chad: Yeah, so for all the listeners who didn't listen a couple episodes ago, you should've, and if you haven't, go back because it was good shit. Broadbean has also moved. So this is kind of the MO of what's happening. It's all about cost-cutting at this point, guys. I mean, they are focusing on cutting the fat wherever there is fat. So if you're at Career Builder right now, you are pretty God damn shaky if you come in the morning looking for your desk and hoping that it's still fucking there. Joel: Yeah, I heard some of my contacts, I think, mentioned that they're down to one help desk person at the company. Chad: Oh jeez. Joel: Which is pretty, yeah, pretty amazing. So this to me, there has always been the question of is this just a chop shop deal, where they're just cutting the pieces and moving on? Or is this a copy and paste kind of thing, or cut and paste, where they're getting rid of the old executives and bring in new ones. I mean, to me, this feels more and more like chop shop territory than it does "We're just replacing the bad apples with fresh fruit." Chad: Yeah, yeah. How long do you think it's gonna take before they oust Ferguson and their COO becomes CEO? Because I see that move happening, because she's already hardwired into the system, right, the Apollo. Joel: Maybe by the end of the show, we'll get some feedback. But yeah, I think Ferguson is probably contractually obligated to stick around, but I think once that's over he'll either leave by his own discretion, or he'll be out. But I think he's just a figurehead at this point. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they'll do it in a more smooth kind of manner, rather than just kicking him out with a box. Joel: Smooth, because everything they've done up to this point has been so smooth. Chad: It's gotta at least be one thing, so anyway, yeah, they're cutting the fat everywhere, guys. So whew, more to be had there! Joel: Well, going to the next store, Dice, another old timey, crusty, cobwebby job board, we mentioned that they had a new CEO a couple weeks back. Chad: Art! Joel: Art Zeile, or Zeile, I don't know how to pronounce it [crosstalk 00:15:36]. He had his first earnings call- Chad: Ouch. Joel: This past week. Chad: Ouch. Joel: And it was, I don't know, a tale of two stories I guess. So they, they, on analyst's six expectations of earnings per share, they hit on that, but they were down revenue. They missed revenue in their reports. So specifically, they had earnings per share, five cents, that were in line with estimates. The revenue number of 39.7 million was a 2.3 decrease, 3% decrease from last year, notably Dice, they have three job boards, as most of our listeners know. They have Dice, Clearance Jobs, and eFinancialCareers. Dice was down 8% year over year, and brought in 23.5 million. So it's still bringing in the lion's share of revenue, but it had the biggest decrease of the three businesses. Clearance Jobs seems like it's doing pretty well, although it's the smallest of the three businesses. Joel: Now what was notable to me was that Art was very, he was very transparent about what was going on, what was wrong with the company. And he mentioned a few things, like the design of the site kinda sucks, we need to fix that. We need to retain our current clients in a much better fashion than we currently do, apparently they're bleeding clients, which is bad. And they spent too much time fixing what's broken, as opposed to building new feature sets and new cool products. So it was great to see him sort of outline the problems I think we both have seen or at least expected for a while, and hopefully they are fixing those problems and can move forward. Chad: Yeah, I mean this is his time to be able to do that, because it's not his baby, so he can call this baby ugly, right? But that's gonna change. I mean there's gonna be a time when he's been there long enough, from a leadership standpoint, to be able to make these moves, make these changes. We always talk about technical debt and things like that, these companies have, and they have a ton of because they've been around for so goddamned long. Joel: Yep. Chad: The biggest question is how do you remake yourself? Do you continue to try to play that maintenance game and build something on top of this old, technical debt shit that you have? Or do you start anew, and go in parallel. That's the big question, and that's gonna be an answer that he has to come up with, and in a couple more earnings calls, there's not gonna be, it's gonna be his baby. It's not gonna be Mike's baby, it's gonna be his baby, and he better get his shit straight. Joel: Yeah, it's easy to be transparent when it's someone else's dirty laundry, right? But harder otherwise. You know, I think ... personally I think one of Dice's biggest hurdles is the Dice brand. In that, I think tech people think of Dice as a job board, and the best of the best developers aren't on job boards, they would never sink so low as to sort of hang out at a job board. They'd want to hang out at GitHub and these cool sites for programmers. So to me that's an issue I'm not sure he'll ever be able to fix. Chad: Here's what it comes down to, okay. You have customers and revenues that are happening right now so you can't shut that system down. You have to continue to maintain and play that technical debt game. One of the things that Monster didn't do, and they were fucking stupid because they didn't do this, is they didn't run a parallel line of business which had an entirely new brand, right, could be a sister company or what have you, that was going to be the Indeed, or the next version of what Monster should be. Instead of trying to fix it with bailing wire and duct tape and zip ties and shit like that, run parallel, it's not like you don't have the money to be able to do something like this, right? You're not gonna be able to do what you want on this old ass system. Chad: Now, all the data that you have, all that data from the company standpoint and from the job seeker's standpoint, you should be able to siphon that off and use it in these new platforms. Joel: I think Dice should go buy a brand that's cool, Code Signal, Overflow, something that's not a job board, but appeals to developers. And then slowly start putting Dice's jobs on that site. That would be my strategy, but again he's not writing me any checks anyway, that's free advice, do with it what you will, but to me I think Dice will always be associated with job boards. Chad: Yes. Joel: And job postings. And the best developers don't want anything to do with that. Chad: No. Not in the least. Joel: So let's talk about a new, hip, exciting, progressive, awesome company. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I won't saw awesome, but in the news, trending, Slack is raising more frickin' money. Chad: Dude. Joel: I think they're like, round G at this point. Chad: It is fucking ridiculous. Joel: They're looking for $400 million to put them at a $7 billion valuation. Which, by the way, let me remind you that we just talked about Dice's revenues at 25, 30. 40 billion, or 40 million in a quarter, like this is a messaging app! Or at least it is today. Looking for more money, which seems mind boggling to some degree, but Microsoft has finally admitted, publicly, that Slack is a competitor, so I gotta think maybe, although I think you pooh-poohed it a while back in a podcast, that Slack is maybe looking to take on the big boys, the Microsofts, the Googles, and why else would they be raising so much money? Chad: First and foremost, never use "pooh-poohed", okay? Second, looking on Crunch Base, so they've had 11 rounds of funding at $1.2 billion, so yes, they are going to have to do something. One of two things. If they're going to try to take the big guys head to head, they're definitely going to have to continue to raise a shit ton of money. On the second side, where I still see that they could do well, not if they continue raising money though, is that exit. Actually being able to sell into a bigger ecosystem. Obviously it's not gonna be Microsoft, because Microsoft sees Slack as a competitor, which we said a few weeks ago. But who else out there can actually afford, after all this fucking funding, how could they afford it? Joel: Yeah, they have to go public. I mean, I agree, I don't think anyone's gonna buy them at this valuation- Chad: No! Joel: We could be shocked, right? I mean LinkedIn was bought for 26 billion, so there is a chance that Slack could be acquired, and I still hold out that Amazon may come in and buy them at some point. But yeah, they've got, they've got definitely bigger aspirations than just being a messaging app. Chad: Dude. Joel: I don't know what that is, maybe it's communication in multiple ways, or office stuff, or recruiting stuff, like I'm not really sure, but it's interesting to watch, if nothing else. They're reporting that they have 500 thousand users of Slack, now a lot of those are like one, two people companies that don't matter, but it's a decent number. Chad: Yeah. How many are paid, though? I mean those aren't all paid clients, are they? Joel: The small guys for sure are free. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And the bigger companies do. And they have an app store, assuming they're making some money off of anything that's paid off of that, but I mean they're building an ecosystem, they're building a platform, it's just a matter of what do they want to provide, and who do they want to compete against with this 1.whatever billion dollars that they've got in investment money. Chad: No clue, but we're watching, and we're salivating as they either play the Titanic or they get saved. Joel: This is either gonna be like a Groupon thing, where they just, they go public and fade, they don't make money, and you know ... I mean, Groupon makes money, I'm just saying like, it's like a hot company with a lot of money and a lot of attention, and if they just say no to everyone and go public, it'll be interesting to see what happens. But yeah, Slack, and by the way, Facebook is full bore into this messaging thing. Like they're not fooling around with their at-work product to compete with these guys for messaging, so we'll see. Joel: Well, when we get back, let's take a quick break, we'll talk Google and Textio. But Sovren first! Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market. Because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them, and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching, visit sovereign.com. That's s-o-v-r-e-n.com. Joel: Time to talk Google, which we never do. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: So this is in my SEO, geeky wheelhouse, I'm kind of excited about this rumor/screenshot that we got last week. So, in one of the messaging groups that I'm in, someone shared a screenshot of Google's homepage with ... so Google on Chrome, you see the search box, and then you see you know, screenshots of websites that you visit a lot. In between the search box and the frequently visited websites were recommended or related job searches for this user to click on. The related searches that came up for this particular user were editorial assistant jobs, resident assistant jobs, artist assistant jobs, and accounting assistant jobs. So what can we guess from that information? Chad: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's all about history, and they're just serving up where that individual's been and the searches that they've done, obviously, and we know that most of the job searches that land anywhere start on Google. So I mean, it just makes sense to be able to serve that up. Now this individual also, I believe, by, if I remember the screenshot, also went to one of the favorited or the most trafficked sites was Indeed, and it looks like this individual's actually in maybe a recruiting or staffing kind of function. So they're there always. So yeah, just the opportunity to be able to serve up relevant information, and in this case, it was specifically jobs on that Chrome homepage, that was pretty awesome. Joel: Yes, so Google is very conservative with their homepage. I mean, over the years, they've lived on simplicity, they've thrived on simplicity, so for them to do anything on the homepage is sort of a big deal. Yes, this user's most visited sites included Indeed, I'm guessing that if Google is tracking their search behavior, they're searching for jobs a lot, potentially, or looking at job content a lot. I assume if you're looking for Mexican restaurants a lot in your hometown, maybe they're serving up Mexican restaurants- Chad: How did you know? Joel: Preemptively before you go on and search, yeah. So Google's getting really smart, but I'd be curious to know if they're doing it for other things beside job listings on their site. Like are they doing it for restaurants or doing it for concerts and sporting events around town, but it clearly, if it's job specific it shows a extreme level of importance that Google currently has for getting people to their job postings. Chad: So if you're a listener out there and you just, you use Chrome, and you go to just open a browser and you can see the, pretty much it's the most visited websites, and they have them already set up there for you, nice screenshots, let us know if you see more than that. If you see jobs, or you see food, or you see something that's more than just those sites that you normally go to, it'd be cool. And send some screenshots to us. Joel: Yeah, for sure. And it's probably a good time to mention Bogomil, our good friend and head of the Google For Hire, whatever we're calling it today, initiative is leaving the company. Chad: He is. Joel: And handing the reins over to someone else. So I don't know if you want to read anything into that, but I don't know that I do. I don't think Google For Hire is crap, I don't think, I think it's just- Joel: He's gonna be on sabbatical right? So who knows what he's doing, but Bogomil, I assume you're not coming back to our space any time soon. It was a pleasure meeting you, working with you, interviewing you, good luck. Chad: Very good guy. Very transparent, as much as somebody from Google can be, and from my understanding Tarquin Clark is actually going to be taking over. We'll find out. We'll get more information. Tarquin is a go-to market guy on the API side so all that we've been talking about with the job search API, with Johnson & Johnson, Careerbuilder and all those different Jibe and whatnot, he was the guy who spearheaded that. It's definitely in good hands. Tarquin's a great guy and he's going to have his hands full. There's a new API that's open for candidate search and obviously now wondering if it's gonna be under his purview as well, Hire by Google, because that would be awesome in signaling that perspectively all of those come under one umbrella. Joel: Yep, yep. Tarquin has big shoes to fill for sure. Chad: Yep. Joel: But we hope he keeps the channels of communication open. Bogomil presented at TA Tech in Dublin. They've been really transparent in letting us know what's going on so hopefully the spirit of that continues and I assume that it will. Chad: I'm pretty confident that he will. He's a good guy, a good guy and he definitely wants to get the message out there. Joel: Well moving on to our Make America Great Again portion of the show. Chad: Jesus. Joel: Textio, who we don't really talk about I don't think ever on this show, but they do some pretty cool stuff with key words and job postings and helping companies put the right language in copy and shoot ... comparing it to other job postings they have in the system and which ones are most successful and whatever, so anyway, they sent out a report this week that talked about the amount of relocation language in job postings versus a year ago, and there's been a 25%, I believe, in language on job postings about relocating to the U.S. So the Trump effect I guess is either scaring companies about wanting to get immigrants to come over or they think there's regulation that's gonna take place that makes it harder to hire immigrants, but yeah, that was an interesting news tidbit for me for sure. Chad: I think it's, and take it how you will, I think it's an immigration and a tariff issue. We see companies who are actually moving overseas, Harley Davidson, just because, just from a tariff standpoint they have to be able to do that to grow globally and to sell globally. What I took out of the article, which I thought was pretty interesting, was just that. The larger global corporate presence where HubSpot is opening a Berlin office, Microsoft opening in Dublin, and so on and so forth, and this has implications not on the immigration patterns overall, but for the global economy. Chad: To be able to speed that up, and I'll give you a great example, to be able to speed that up, let's say in bourbon. Bourbon is big globally and it's growing in many different areas throughout the world, but these tariffs could make it much easier for another alcohol beverage, alcoholic beverage, to fill that gap, and we're not just talking about short term, we're talking about long term, the same thing happens. So what does that actually mean for jobs? Now, will some companies have to actually move to be able to sell? To be able to keep that market share? To be able to grow that market share? So yeah, I think this is an indication from Textio, which is interesting that it's coming from them, that there's a sharp decrease, I mean very sharp, 25% decrease. Joel: Your thesis, let me get this right, is that companies are opening up overseas locations which excludes the need to relocate to the U.S. Instead, the companies are relocating to other countries and hiring in those areas. Is that your thesis? Chad: I think it's both from an immigration standpoint that we need people, first off, we need people so we can't ... we've got to get rid of some of the things that we're looking for as barriers to actually getting warm bodies to do the job, that's number one. Then number two, yes, the actual movement, and again, our government is doing ... they're making these decisions and there are ramifications for every decision. Yes, there are positives, what are the negatives? These are some of the negatives that I am seeing. Joel: Between the wall, if you will. Build the wall, baby. Keep everyone out. We don't want you. Chad: Yeah, we don't want you so that we can't have people actually doing jobs and our companies fail because we can't put out product. Yeah, that's probably the dumbest shit ever. Joel: Yeah. We could go on about free trade for a long time. Chad: Whoo. Joel: But we both have followers in the ultra Trump wing that would go off in a big way. Disability story. This is your wheelhouse. What's going on? Chad: Yeah. So as most of our listeners know, my wife is ... she's in this space and she focuses on building retiring programs for big brands for individuals with disabilities. These are companies who really care about trying to inject other talent pools into their jobs, because again, we take a look at the unemployment rate today, it's incredibly low. We've got to look at other pools. Chad: A new study actually identified that the hiring bias against individuals with disabilities and, go figure, the individuals with disabilities are like 2.6% more likely to be unemployed in the general population, and companies are just taking their bias and saying, "Well, individuals with disabilities can't do this job." They don't know that, they just have their own bias and this study is actually demonstrating that the bias is real. Not only are the unemployment numbers demonstrating that the bias is real, but the study did as well. Joel: We hear a lot about programmatic ad buying and AI solving these issues, how do you feel about that? Do you think that the machines will fix a lot of these biases, or do you think that it will accentuate them or not solve them at all? Chad: Yeah, I think in some cases they might, so that an individual can actually get through the interview and they can come on site possibly for a face to face interview or something of that nature, but when that happens in some cases, if they show up in a wheelchair, even though it might be a desk job, there's still that inherent bias that happens. That's the problem. That's one of the big problems that we see. Joel: Yeah, I don't know if there's an easy solution to this problem. Chad: Another thing is that the studied showed is that low expectations is the curse of people with disabilities. Again, my wife getting hundreds and hundreds of individuals with disabilities into jobs, I mean, that's her focus and that's what Disability Solutions, who actually sponsors the transcriptions for this podcast, that's what they do, and they have to get through those myths and biases everyday. They actually have training specific to that, because they know this is real, and to have a system, to have a program to actually do hiring that is unbiased, you've got to spend money. If you just think that you can do it off of free resources, then you're kidding yourself. Don't say that you want to hire individuals with disabilities unless you get people in there who can help you do that. The studies constantly show this, but yet we're not changing our behavior. Joel: Do you think the gig economy is an overall plus for people with disabilities, so the Upworks, the Fiverrs, where it's not an interview, it's just a meritocracy. If you can do the job and get good reviews, you get more work and the wheel goes around. What are your thoughts on the gig economy and disability and what would Julie's sort of commentary be? Chad: I would say yeah, if they can be plugged into it and they can do jobs from home, depending on what the actual jobs are, yeah. Just being able to provide the opportunity out there and say, "Hey, here's a project. Who can do this project? Bid on the project. Boom, you get the project, you do the project." That's what it comes down to. That's what we should be focused on every single day as opposed to looking at somebody who comes into an organization who might be deaf. Well, they can't do the job. Well why? Why can't they do the job? What accommodations, which probably aren't gonna cost you very much, what types of accommodations would you have to put in place that wouldn't just be better for this person, but would be better for the entire organization? Joel: Do you know the numbers of people with disabilities and how long they typically stay at a company? Chad: Okay, so, and this is probably where we should do like an interview with Julie or somebody over there, but some of the data that she's actually shown me is that the retention for individuals with disabilities of the projects that she's working, in very big brands right now, is like so much higher. I would say just from trying to remember 20% higher if not more than just your regular employee. They stay longer. The retention ... and again, you've got to remember. It's one of those situations where when you've never been given a chance, never been given a chance before, now you're given a chance. That really means something to you. There's a loyalty, there's a bond that's there that we don't see in the workforce anymore. These guys are actually demonstrating that through hiring individuals with disabilities and seeing the retention. Joel: Well on that note, let's hear ... if you have compliance issues hiring people with disabilities, American's Job Exchange might be able to help you out. Let's hear from them and when we come back, we'll talk cheerleaders, believe it or not. Chad: Oh god. AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment, designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women, and minorities, and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community based organizations. Want to learn more? Call us at 866-926-6284, or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com. Joel: Football is right around the corner, Chad. Chad: Can't wait, dude. I am so stoked. Joel: Can't wait. Preseason starts tonight. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So disabilities, equality, it hits football as well. We had a story this week. The New Orleans Saints and the LA Rams for the first time will have male dancers/cheerleaders. Chad: Yeah. Why not. The thing that I never really even pondered or understood was why didn't they in the first place? If you see cheerleaders in college- Joel: They have men. Chad: Yeah. Male, female. I never really understood that. Not to mention from a demographic standpoint, I understand football for a very long time was a very focused demographic on the male side of the house. You want to have hot females doing the cheerleader stuff. Totally get that. But if you want to broaden that up, if you want to be able to once again make more money, NFL, which I would have thought they would have thought this through a long time ago, you'd have males. It just makes sense, not to mention, again, looking for equality all the way around. Joel: Yeah, I agree. I will note that real football teams don't even have female cheerleaders. As a Browns fan, it's a point of pride that we're so old school, we have no logo, no cheerleaders, and we usually have no wins, but that's a different subject. Chad: Entirely. Joel: Steelers don't have cheerleaders, Packers don't have cheerleaders. There are a lot of old, traditional franchises that don't have cheerleaders, male or female, so I will do a little hat tip to those old school football teams. Chad: Yeah. Again, if that's a part of the culture and that's a part of their culture. But obviously the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, that's been a marketing scheme for them for a very long time. They've gotten shit tons of cash because of having cheerleaders on the sideline and calendars and videos and you name it. Joel: Yeah. Will they be the last team to have male cheerleaders that have cheerleaders? Chad: I would say yeah, because Jerry Jones is way too old school to change anything that he's doing. Joel: I agree, I agree. Well, anyway, that's all we got on male cheerleaders. I'm kinda out of gas this week. If you're ready, I say we out. Chad: We out. Ema: Hi. I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy, Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors, because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Careerbuilder #Dice #DisabilityHiring #DisabilitySolutions #Slack #Google #Textio #NFL #Immigration

NEXXT EXCLUSIVE: this month the boys have a chat with Bullhorn's CMO Gordon Burnes about the current state of marketing in the recruitment space on the heels of their annual survey. Notably, the guys dig into the most popular (and unpopular) strategies being deployed by firms around the world. Spoiler alert: Job boards are in trouble. Enjoy, and be sure to visit Nexxt ... there's no show without sponsors like them. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps employers identify and source candidates with disabilities. Chad: This, The Chad & Cheese Podcast, brought to you in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit TATech.org. Chad: Okay, Joel. Quick question. Joel: Yeah? Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates or your texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah. I know. I call it our Pavlovian dog reflex to text messaging. Joel: That's probably why text messaging has a frickin' 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: We had a crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why The Chad & Cheese Podcast love Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: Love it. Chad: That's right. Nexxt, with a double X, not the triple X. Joel: Bow chicka bow wow. So, if you're in talent acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI ... That stands for return on investment, folks. Because this is The Chad & Cheese Podcast, you can try your first text-to-hire campaign for just 25% off. Boom. Wow. Chad: How do you get this discount? You're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell them, Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You go to ChadCheese.com and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long URL to remember. Just go where you know. ChadCheese.com and Nexxt, with two Xs. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Hey, boys and girls. It's your boy, Cheese, here with another monthly exclusive sponsored by Nexxt. This month, we're honored to be joined by Gordon Burns, CMO, that's chief marketing officer, at Bullhorn. Gordon, welcome to podcast. Gordon: Hey. Thanks so much. Good to be here. Joel: Give us the elevator pitch on you and tell us about Bullhorn, for those who don't know. Gordon: Yeah, great. I've been at Bullhorn about four years. Came from IBM, where I ran marketing for part of the information management group there. Really excited to be at Bullhorn. We've been growing incredibly quickly over the last four years. We do CRM software plus operations capabilities for staffing firms of all sizes. We like to think that we help companies do everything from candidates all the way through to cash. We operate worldwide. But, most importantly, we're focused on delivering a great customer experience. We've been able to ... had the opportunity to work with a lot of wonderful people and a lot of wonderful companies. It's been a great ride so far. Joel: What does a typical client look like? Are we talking global? What size? Company names that people might know? Gordon: It's interesting. We have about 8,000 customers right now, close to 100,000 users. It really spans the entire spectrum, from entrepreneur just starting out, gets out of college and wants to dive into the business, all the way through to Adecco and Manpower and Kelly, some of the largest firms. And we sort of organize our company around these segments because, obviously, larger companies operate very differently and have very different needs from smaller ones. So we really try to meet the needs of our customers, whatever size they are. Chad: So, Gordon, you would actually put out a marketing survey. Now, coming from Bullhorn. So, first off, I think it's awesome. We get more information with regard to marketing, especially in the staffing arena, but why did you do it? What was the impetus for actually wanting to put together research or a survey like this? Gordon: Yeah, it's interesting. I think that the marketing in the staffing industry is going through a really big change, and we're sort of at the front end of a big wave that we believe is really going to sweep the industry. And that's going to happen at the organizational level, it's going to happen with technology, it's going to happen with tactics, and it's pretty exciting. Gordon: If you look around at the evolution of how staffing firms arise, a lot of owner operated businesses grew up super strong on the sales side, but they get to a point where they're really trying to scale programmatically. Like, how do we scale without just knocking on doors, right? And then they say, well, there's this thing called marketing, so they go hire somebody that they knew in college, and this person does a little advertising, and it doesn't really work, and so they're sort of stuck, right? Gordon: So I think a lot of owners, owner operators are saying, hey, what do I really need to do to scale this business, and marketing's probably a really important component of growing the business in the long run, so what do I need to do? Chad: Right. Right, right, right. So in the actual survey itself, and just going top line, it actually said "87% of global staffing and recruiting firms do not have a CMO." No love. Gordon: Yeah. Chad: So who is in charge of marketing, or are they just not doing marketing at all? I mean, that doesn't make any sense to me. Gordon: Yeah, no, it's really interesting. I think all firms are doing marketing for sure, and I think what that statistic points out is the relative importance that most firms put on marketing. Marketing is sort of like an afterthought, and so the chief marketing officer, or the person who is in charge of marketing at the firm typically does not have a seat at the executive table. Gordon: In terms of how do we really grow and expand, and how do we manage our customers, the marketing voice is sort of secondary, and I think, in a lot of cases, it's really relegated to, "Hey, can you go place some ads on that job board over there" versus what is the strategic way we can deploy our marketing dollars to grow fastest?" Those are two totally different things. One is just really tactically ... You just go and hire your friend out of college to go place ads on a job board. The other is a really complicated question to answer. Where do I put my marginal dollar of investment to grow the firm? Gordon: To answer that question is very hard. You've got to have a lot of data. You've got to have a lot of information. You have to have done a lot of tests around different channels, but if you want to spend your money correctly, you've got to make the investment to answer that question. Chad: Well, for staffing firms, it's really two sided though, right? Because you're trying to grow the business line, so you're trying to gain more clients, but also you have a marketing aspect where you're trying to help focus on the candidate side, too, right? Or is that something you guys really don't touch on? Gordon: No, absolutely. Totally, and that just sort of increases the complexity. But, you know, in this environment, the challenges are really weighted on the candidate side, right? We're essentially a full employment. We've got the job mix that a lot of the clients is changing, so you need to find different kinds of skill sets. I think, for the most part, the 60% to 70% of the challenge on the marketing side is really about figuring out the candidate side of the equation versus the client side. Joel: Gordon, I'm curious about some historical perspective from the survey, which doesn't quite come out in the executive summary. Assuming that you've done this survey a few times over the years, 80% is a very bad number in terms of embracing marketing, but what, historically, do you see ... Are staffing companies embracing marketing more, or is this number going down over time? Gordon: Yeah. So this is the first year we did a formal survey. We have, over time, started to notice that more and more companies are placing VPs of Marketing in CMOs, and so this year we said, hey, look, we really have to go get some real quantifiable data to understand how this is changing. Going forward, we'll definitely measure it, but as we interact with our customers and our prospects, we're starting to see the CMO be a larger voice in the conversation about how to run the business, and it's because of this question of scale and allocating dollars more effectively. Gordon: And it's also, I think ... There's another component, which is there's a lot more technology out there to allow you to do different things that companies are sort of questioning, and do you really need somebody to say, hey, look, we want to put in a chat bot, or we want to put in marketing automation, or we want to put in dialogue management or whatever it is, and to have someone who can really do that effectively. Joel: So a few of the metrics really stuck out to me, but I think the one that really sort of surprised me in going back historically ... Job boards talk a lot about "We're not dead," "We're as good as we've ever been," or "We're healthy," and the fact that your survey had that only 50% use job boards really shocked me. What do you think about that number? Gordon: Well, I think what's happened is that there is a whole new set of channels to get to the candidate that didn't exist ten years ago, that you now have the whole email channel. You have social channels. You have pay-per-click. A lot of people are doing texting now, right? So I think it's more that there's just a proliferation of tactics that are available to go reach candidates, and also clients as well. And so I think in the old world, you probably had single channel marketing really, and now it's really about multichannel marketing. Chad: Well, and often those channels, I mean, one of the channels that looks like it's gone down dramatically is pay per click job ads, only 34%. Gordon: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and I think what's happened there is that it's a little bit like the gold rush. People, when new channels become effective, you just have a whole bunch of money flowing into that channel, and it drives down the return. Right? And so this is another reason why the marketing function is so important, is that it's really about figuring out: What is the most effective way to generate your candidate sourcing and candidate engagement? And I would say that's another big piece of the puzzle here, is that a lot of these firms are figuring out that they're sitting on a gold mine, which is their own candidate database. Chad: Right. Gordon: And so as opposed to just spending money on job boards, they're saying, "Hey. How can I reactive the people that I've already talked to? Maybe I haven't talked to them in a while. But how do I activate that relationship and then start building on it?" Chad: A couple of things, because that last part is something that we get onto a lot on the podcast. But first off, do you believe ... Because most of your clients, they're staffing firms, and Indeed is kicking staffing firms off of their platform. They're putting them in "Indeed jail." Do you think that might be a part of the impact as well, because they were spending a lion's share of their pay per click on Indeed? And now they're kicked off, so they're looking for other ways. Gordon: Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think there's a mass exodus in the job board world towards very specific boards that are really targeted at the talent pools that you're looking for. And I think these sort of mass market forums are becoming the return on your dollar in these mass market forums is just dropping dramatically. Chad: Right. Gordon: And I think that's what you're seeing, really. And that's driving other changes as well. Chad: I guess what it comes down to, the second part of what we were talking about was the resume database. Right? Companies have spent millions of dollars to actually create these resume databases, but they never use them. They're always looking outward instead of inward. So are you guys looking to, there at BullHorn, are you looking to partner with companies that actually help rejuvenate those databases and also market to those databases, versus going outside, going inside first? Gordon: Yeah. For sure. Absolutely. I think putting in place the right technology to be able to programmatically go after the resume database is really important. I mean, there are all sorts of generic marketing technologies like Marketo and HubSpot that help you manage emails that you might send into your candidate database. And then there's more specific technologies that you could use around sort of putting out surveys or developing new content that you use to activate these relationships that have sort of gone dormant. I mean, there's also a whole content angle here, which is- Chad: The nurturing type of angle. Right? Gordon: Yeah, exactly. And if you think about the whole inbound marketing world, that HubSpot in particular championed, that's another, I think, source of candidate activation. I know we have one customer that has generated 30% of their fills through really awesome content that they post on their web, and then on their website. And then propagate through social media, so they have a very, very active social media presence that the candidates will follow. And then they get engaged with the content. And then as they get more engaged, then they start to see some of the opportunities that the company's working on. Joel: Gordon, I'm curious about your thoughts on LinkedIn. It wasn't mentioned in the survey. Curious about its impact today versus maybe in the past or where you think the impact is going, as well as your opinion on sort of Microsoft's recent acquisition of GitHub and how that'll play into the whole sort of staffing, marketing world. Gordon: Yeah. Really, really interesting dynamic there. LinkedIn is pretty interesting in the sense that they have, at least in the professional space, virtually 100% market share. And the challenge, I think, that any staffing agency will have with LinkedIn is: How much money are you going to spend there? Because you're already, assuming you have LinkedIn recruiter licenses, you're already spending a ton of money. Right? Chad: Yeah. Gordon: And then to the extent that you're using it for paid job ads, you've just got to figure out. You've got to make sure that you're getting the return that you want, versus the other channels. And I think this is really the crux of the issue here, which is that you've got to put in place the right information systems in your marketing departments, so that you can understand where you're getting the best return on your dollar because there are so many different channels. And to do that, you've got to invest in technology and you've got to invest in people, the right people that can actually make those decisions based on the data that you're collecting. With regard to LinkedIn, I think that we use it here, BullHorn of course. Gordon: I think any staffing firm you talk to will use it. I think the question is making sure that you get the right return on those dollars. I think with regard to GitHub, what's interesting is that's obviously a portal into an incredibly important talent pool. And so the real question is: How is Microsoft going to allow staffing firms to get access to that talent pool? Now they have some cultural challenges around that. I think most of the GitHub folks are not necessarily anti Microsoft. Joel: Yeah, they are. Gordon: But they're doing their own thing. Right? It's a lot of ... And so I think Microsoft's going to have to tread pretty lightly there in terms of how they expose that world to the broader commercial world that LinkedIn is really trying to unlock for staffing firms. Chad: We talk about Microsoft obviously and LinkedIn because they're one and the same now. But what about being able to utilize a company like Google to really boost your brand like we've seen with Jibe and some of the other orgs that are out there the plug into their job search API. And now Google has a candidate API, so that obviously the search, the job search is happening from the candidate's side of the house, and then also from the recruiter's side of the house, you're having the candidate search, having those come to together with their beautiful, magic black box of machine learning and AI. Is that something that you think, not just from a technical standpoint, but from a marketing standpoint, that gives an organization like BullHorn possibly an edge? Gordon: Well, it's interesting. I think we're still in the early, early, early stages with that. When we talk to firms about how they're handling this, sort of the ones that are really on the cutting edge, what they're doing is, they're starting to experiment. And there are definitely some wobbles in terms of how that algorithm works. It could be on a region basis. It could be on a job basis. Could be on a pay basis. You really have to go and sort of experiment and see what's working. I think where we're headed here is that each firm is going to get more and more specialized around very specific candidate pools. And the channels that line up to access those talent pools will start to become clear because, as we talked about earlier, sort of the move away from Indeed by some firms is largely driven by this notion of, I need to get access to a richer and more specific talent pool. Right? Chad: Right. Right. Gordon: And I think that's where it's going to go. Now where I think Google has an advantage is on the matching algorithms. Obviously, they're one of the leading AI companies. But they're going to open those algorithms up, and so we'll be advantage of them. Other staffing industry software vendors will be able to take advantage of them. There will probably be third party services that do matching across job openings and talent pools. I think the key thing for a staffing firm right now is to start experimenting because this is going to evolve very quickly here. Chad: Yeah. But don't you see that really giving a marketing boost as you're trying to, obviously, go out and pitch clients? And saying, "Look. We've got the best tech in the world. We know what we can do great. We know what we can't do great." Do you think that actually provides an advantage? Or do you think it's really just kind of smoke and mirrors? Gordon: No, it absolutely provides an advantage. There's no doubt. There is no doubt because you're going to be shut out of either, most probably the talent side, on the talent side of the equation if you're not trying to figure it out. Now in the end, you have to have that relationship with the candidate. Right? You've got to get that candidate to actually make the emotional connection to the job. Chad: Yeah. Gordon: Algorithms still have not been able to figure out: Does the candidate have an emotional affinity for saying yes? Right? People are still better at that than anything else. And so the question is: Can you use the algorithms to filter through the candidates that aren't going to be applicable to a particular job? And then use your personal skill, if you're a recruiter, use your personal skill and understanding of human nature to actually persuade the candidate to take the job. Right? Chad: Right. Right. Gordon: We've seen or heard the recordings of the Google bot calling up the hair salon and making a- Chad: Duplex. Joel: -Duplex. Gordon: It's absolutely insane right? Very, very cool, but it'll be interesting to see that, see Duplex trying to figure out "Okay, how am I gonna persuade them to create an opening when they don't have an opening?" Right? Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Gordon: That's something the machines aren't doing yet. Joel: I'm curious Gordon, social media was listed as the most popular medium by which you would find candidates in market. How exactly are customers and folks you surveyed using social media? Are they advertising? Are they just using it as a sourcing tool? Is it both? Talk about that. Gordon: Yeah, I think it's really born out of this notion of inbound marketing, where you're sort of getting your brand, your content, your point of view out in the market and creating a relationship with the candidate through that point of view. Clearly, there's also a bunch of advertising that's going on through social media as well. And that can actually be done on a Geo-located basis. So, we've talked to some firms that are pretty successful doing that as well. But, I think fundamentally and structurally, that's what's going on, is that firms are realizing to build their brand and to build their presence, they really have to have a point of view in the market with the candidate pool that they're pursuing. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Gordon: I would note that social media was the number one choice for companies that do not have a VP of marketing or a CMO. The number one choice for companies that do have a CMO or VP of marketing is email marketing followed by marketing automation, which is really about candidate nurture. Joel: Right. Gordon: So, social media sort of becomes an important part of the equation, but it's really, I would say, the top of the funnel. And then you start building the relationship with the candidate relationship tool. Chad: So, where do you see texting coming in? Because texting is starting ... We're starting to see a wave- Joel: You read my mind. Chad: Of companies who want to be able to engage candidates where they're at. And, they're not in email because they're not answering email. So, yeah, it is effective but it's not as effective as text. So, as a CMO, this is probably something ... You wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat. Do you engage on the text side of the house? And, are you starting to implement that in BullHorn? Gordon: Yes, absolutely, I would say that we have a bunch of partners that offer full texting capabilities. It's probably one of our fastest growing categories within the BullHorn marketplace for sure. I think everyone's seen the data on what the response rates are when you send a text versus when you send an email and there's no doubt. It's like ... order of magnitude higher if you're sending a text versus an email. So, companies are definitely gravitating that way. I do think that their ... If you think about spheres of intimacy with the candidate ... Sorry, it's like a little marketing jargon for you. Chad: Let me write that down real quick, sphere of intimacy. Gordon just invited me into the sphere of intimacy. Chad: Of intimacy. Gordon: Exactly. Joel: He's never known that octagon before. Gordon: That's in the marketing 201 class. Joel: Now we know what they teach at Harvard. Gordon: No, they don't actually teach that. No, I think that ... you know, look, you're on a email relationship with some of your acquaintances and then some people text you. But, there are certain people that if they texted you, you'd be like “What's this guy texting me for? I don't even know him” Right? Chad: Right. Gordon: You know? So, I think that that's really the challenge from a marketing standpoint about how to handle texting right? When have you gotten to a point in the relationship with your candidate where you can actually text someone and they'll text you back? So, I would say it's if you think about the life-cycle of how you develop a candidate relationship, it's not at the top, right? But, as soon as you can develop that relationship, texting is gonna be the best. Joel: Gordon, so that's the best way, and we've talked about texting, email, social media. I want to know your opinion on just the good old-fashioned phone and where that comes into play with this marketing perspective. And, I'd also like to know, Chad and I discussed on this weeks show, LinkedIn launching a voice mail component on their native app chat. So, I'd like to know your opinion on LinkedIn's new feature as well as kind of where we are with just the old-fashioned phone. Gordon: Yeah that's really interesting. I mean, I think on the old-fashioned phone front, it really comes down to what generation you're in. I'm an Xer and I still will answer my phone. We have actually gone to soft phones here at BullHorn and we get very few calls these days. I think that the world is really migrating away from voice messaging, and I think it's directly a result of generational communication preferences just shifting. So, it depends on who you're going after. If you're going after somebody with 30 years of engineering experience, building bridges, phone's probably the way to go. If you're looking for a web developer who's great on Rails, You can try the phone but there's probably 90% chance you're not gonna get a call back, right? Gordon: So, I really think it depends on where you're going. And so, this LinkedIn thing I think is pretty interesting. I think one thing that's definitely happening is that Alexa and these sort of smart home devices have really changed the way people are interfacing with computers. And my sense it that they're experimenting with that because I think if you take the analogy of having Alexa turn on your radio and activate different parts of your home, if you've got a smart home. Or build a shopping list, as you take that paradigm into the working world, you start to have the question of “So, how are you really gonna interface through voice?” Gordon: The real question is whether that's just gonna be on a command basis or is it also gonna be on a communication basis. And I would bet on the former and not the latter. So, I'm not super bullish on this. Chad: Yeah, and I think sales people are just gonna screw it up for everybody. Joel: And marketers by the way. Marketers and sales fuck up everything. Gordon: Exactly, well just pull up your LinkedIn feed now. We are just getting absolutely crushed by companies just filling the feed up with videos. Chad: Junk, damn. Gordon: Junk, some guy walking to work telling you about why XYZ is so great. And you're like “Dude, why don't you just get out and try to enunciate a little bit better and cut out the horn in the background." Joel: Yeah, alright Gordon, we appreciate your time today in joining us. For those who wanna know about the survey, wanna know about BullHorn, where would they go? Gordon: So, hop on BullHorn.com and type into ... We have a little chat bot there, and type in “CMO survey” and we'll pop it off to you. Joel: Very nice. From Chad and myself I say “We out." Chad: We out. Gordon: Cool guys, thanks a lot. Chad: Okay, before we go, remember when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing? Joel: Yeah, you know all about reflexes. Joel: And then I brilliantly tied it to text message's 97% open rate, then I elegantly, elegantly tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh Chad, I can be elegant, can't I? Chad: Whatever man, I know it's redundant, you already heard about Text2Hire, but you're still not using Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: What???? Chad: I know man. Joel: Come on man. Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again this was all by elegant design. It's all about text to hire and it's all about Nexxt. Joel: And elegant design. So go to Chadcheese.com, click on the Nexxt logo and get 25, yeah, I said 25% off your first Text2Hire campaign. Engage better, use Text2Hire from Nexxt, two X's. Chad: Booyah. Chad: Thanks to our partners at TA tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Remember to visit TAtech.org. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema, thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit ChadCheese.com. #Bullhorn #Nexxt #TATech #ATS #AI #Google #Marketing #EmployerBrand

Searching is so hard. I man seriously you have to type words to search, push ENTER, and then search again. Nobody has time for that, which must be the reason why Facebook and Google are making life more tolerable for recruiters by just serving up perfect candidates without all that searching stuff. The boys discuss. - Google Job Search API, NEW Candidate Search API and New product names? - LinkedIn adds voicemail to messenger - Uber drops autonomous trucking - McDonald's reinforces their drive to the kiosk - Upwork is down wit IPO - Yean you know me... - Canvas loves Bitmoji AND YES -- Indeed baby bathrobes.. WTF? I know right, that's why you gotta listen ... and show our sponsors - America's Job Exchange, Sovren and JobAdX - some big love! PODCAST TRANSCRIPT Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Yeah, and we're back bitches. Chad: Ha, ha. Joel: You're listening to the Chad & Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous. I am Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I am Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, Google and Facebook are playing the matching game. We're leaving a voicemail for LinkedIn, and baby bathrobes are coming to a trade show near you. Dogs and cats living together everybody. We'll be right back. Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them, and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching, visit Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Joel: We're back. Chad: We are back, so how was Nashville man? I love Nashville, it's such a great town. Joel: It's great, but I'm not sure I get the whole appeal of it. Chad: Really? Joel: It's sort of like boots, and rednecks, and fried food. Now, fried food is probably my favorite part of the town. Chad: Yes. Joel: I mean it's a small, little, intimate city. It's not like a Chicago or a New York, so it's really manageable. People there are friendly for sure. It's sort of a community of folks. It's a growing tech scene I believe. Obviously the music scene is cool there. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: It's all good, but I don't want to move there any time soon. It's a nice place to visit I guess. It was great. Jobg8 was last week. I went down for a couple days. Job boards talked about how they're dying, I mean how they're not dying. A lot of folks who want to partner with Job Board. I mean, there are probably more not job boards at the job board conference than there were job boards, which is sort of a testament to the business. It's always great to see old friends, meet new folks. There are people that are startups and trying to get into the business. It's all good. I enjoy getting out and networking, as I know you do as well. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You weren't able to join me, so I wasn't held back by the albatross that is Chad Sowash. I was able to blaze my own trail, which is always nice. Chad: You were taking naps in the corner, is what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing. Joel: I just put my AirPods in and don't talk to anybody basically. It's a good time. Chad: When you say that about the job boards dying, or not dying, or what have you, I always think of the Monty Python skit, where it's the black plague and they're like pulling dead bodies out and they're throwing on the cart and they're saying, “Bring out your dead.” The one guy's like, “I'm not dead yet.” It's like the job board industry, “I'm not dead yet." Joel: Yeah, or if we're keeping with Monty Python, the knight who gets in a fight and his opponent cuts off his legs and his arms, and he's like, “It's but a flesh wound.” Chad: “Merely a flesh wound.” Joel: “Merely a flesh wound.” Yeah. They're not dying according to the show. Their stock is rising. They're a strong buy at this point. It's fun. Yes, everyone will always have a help wanted sign in the window, but is it something you want to like get on board with? Chad: Yeah. It's all about evolving away from being a job board, that's what it is. You've got a shit ton of data. If you're not looking to do something with it, with some of these new technologies, yeah, you're going to be that guy who gets thrown in the plague cart. Joel: Yeah. Right now it's all about technology, AI, chat bots. It's everyone at the show was trying to partner with, integrate with all the job boards that were there. Chad: Right. I know. Totally dig that. Joel: For people who love us during the week, they didn't get their weekly show, so we have a lot to cover today. Chad: Yes. Joel: Lot of good stuff. Yeah, let's get to shout outs. What you got? Chad: First off, Kyle Hager over at Hireology, who we haven't heard from in a while. Apparently work sometimes gets in the way of listening to the podcast, which I want to personally go on the record and say, that is horrible and wrong people. Do not allow work to get in the way of the great things in life, like the Chad & Cheese Podcast, and family, and happiness, but mainly the podcast. Chad: It was really cool, because Kyle has this new hire starting, and she was starting like a week later or something like that, and she says, “Hey, is there anything that I can do to get ready for the job in the meantime?” He said, “Yeah, you need to listen to the Chad & Cheese Podcast.” Big ups Kyle, big ups. Joel: Thanks Kyle. Mason Wong, long time listener of the show, long time fan of stuff that we've done over the years. He loves THE SHRED. If you haven't listened to THE SHRED, you've got to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, et cetera. It's a snippet of news that's hot during the week, which we usually cover later in the week, with more opinion. If you love sort of your quick bites of news, THE SHRED is great, and Mason loves it. Joel: I'll also add that his tweet was liked by Jobvite CEO Dan Finnigan, so I guess I could probably say that Finnigan is a fan of THE SHRED, so big ups and shout outs to them. Chad: This is Mason's tweet, “Thoroughly enjoying THE SHRED. Nano episodes of #ChadCheese. Timely, bite seized tight news focused for subscribers.” That last part is key people. If you're not subscribing on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, you might be missing THE SHRED. It's breaking news. It's happening at that time, so you need to subscribe. Joel: Dude, Mason should be our hype man. Chad: He is our hype man. Joel: Really that's some really good copy there Mason. Chad: That's good shit Mason. We've got Dinah Ribarski at TMP. Quick story. Yesterday I call Grasso because I need some Grasso time, and everybody needs some Chris Grasso time, right? Over at TMP. Anyway, Chris introduces me to Dinah, who I find out is a huge Chad and Cheese fan, and apparently she's the reason half of TMP listens to Chad & Cheese. Joel: Wow. Chad: Yeah. Joel: TMP is no little mom-and-pop shop on the corner. Chad: No, but Gross, you've got to step up your game brother. We love you to death, you're the man. Get the rest of TMP to be listening to Chad & Cheese, and subscribe so that they can get THE SHRED as well. Joel: Yeah, no doubt. Let's educate the world on recruiting news and opinion. I got a shout out to Melissa Patterson of Roan Resources in Oklahoma City. Melissa is an HR professional, so yes, many of them listen. They're not as vocal. They're sort of the silent majority, but we do have a high degree of HR folks listening to the podcast. She's a huge fan. Says everyone in her office makes fun of her because she's such a geek on Chad Cheese. Melissa, we appreciate you and thanks for listening. Chad: Love some Melissa. Andrew Harris over at ULoop loves the show and wants to hear more about recruiting industry future state. Luckily Andrew today we're going to be talking about Google Talent Solution and Google recruitment tech future state. Today is your day my friend. Joel: Nice. I'm going to give a shout out to Lindsay Lohan. Yes, that Lindsay Lohan, who does not listen to the show ever, but apparently there was a new story recently that Lindsay Lohan will fire her staff for wearing shoes that do not match. Lindsay is apparently a savage boss. The fact that she's in any sort of employment news is entertaining to me. Lindsay, you're not listening, but if you are, thanks for listening. Chad: Oh my god, so last one from me. Nancy from Philly loved the interview with Skill Scout CEO Elena Valentine. A couple of points that I loved was we talked about how job postings suck. Again, these are no bullshit conversations, and how she thinks storytelling is dope. Joel: Storytelling is dope. All right, my last and final shout out is going to make you really upset. Chad: Oh god. Joel: Typically, vendors will send along swag, particularly sponsors. Like we love the swag that we've gotten from Talroo, JobAdX, Uncommon, Next. Chad: Uncommon. Yup. Next. Joel: Good stuff, like my kids are at school right now, their first day of school wearing like Job Board and HR Tech swag. I don't need to go to Old Navy anymore for clothes, so that's great. Anyway, this past week ZipRecruiter from Israel. Chad: What? Joel: Sent me a care package, I guess you'd call it. There were the typical t-shirts, but there was Israeli candy, which my wife is a total sweet tooth, so she loved that. There was a bottle of booze in my FedEx package. I get this, and I'm thinking, oh Chad got it too, so as we were talking I was like, "Yeah, did you get your booze from ZipRecruiter?" He goes, "What are you talking about?" Zip in Israel, thanks for the booze, and thanks especially for not letting Chad get in on it and get booze as well. Chad: What a bunch of assholes. How do they not know that I love booze just as much, if not more, than you do? I mean the t-shirts I definitely would love the t-shirts, but the booze. I mean seriously guys? Israel ZipRecruiter, you guys are listening all the time, what the fuck? Joel: To them I say, [applause]. Very good. Chad: Bullshit. Joel: Expect many selfies this weekend, because Chad won't be able to, you know. Anyway, all right, let's get to the news. Chad: Yes. Joel: What do you say to that? Chad: We should do that. Joel: Holy shit, Google's not slowing down. Chad: No, and they shouldn't. They are dropping bombs dude, and I love it. I love it. Joel: What did they do last week while I was at Jobg8? Chad: They opened up Job Search, it's pretty much a job search API buffet right now, which is fricking awesome. Because all these job boards that are out there who we know guys, and you know this too, you know this in your heart of hearts, your job search sucks, right? It's all fricking keyword, and maybe you've got a little algorithm here and there, but it still sucks compared to Google, and they're making it open for everybody, so you can tap into it. It's not for free, but still, you can tap into it and you can get rid of your sad job search shit that you've had for years. Joel: Yeah. If you're still serving jobs in date order, and you don't know someone misspells nurse with a Z or something that you don't know what that means, then Google does, and can save your search. Chad: Oh dude. J&J, they're using Jibe and whatnot, but they've seen a 41% increase in candidates for hard to find positions. We're talking about like scientist, oncologist, those types of positions. 41% increase in candidates for those positions. That's number one, right? Companies who are out there, it's pretty important. We know that iCIMS, and there are other applicant tracking systems, I would assume, that are out there that are tapping into this job search API. If your ATS isn't, get their asses to do it ASAP, because this is ridiculous. These are crazy types of positions, 41% increase. Joel: If you have an Indeed company page, call your Indeed rep and ask if they're implementing the Google Search API. Joel: Now to me the biggest news, the second biggest news, was they may have actually come up with a name for all this stuff. Which at this point I think is the fourth name, but the name that they've come on as of last week is Cloud Talent Solution. Chad: Yes. Joel: How do we feel about that? Chad: It's fucking horrible. I mean, there's no reason, I mean come on guys. Cloud Jobs Discovery. You've got to get jobs out of there, because you've just opened up a new candidate API, which we'll talk about here in a second. Jobs, yeah, it's fricking horrible. Chad: I'm going to jump back real quick to talk about this jobs API, and how impactful it is. CareerBuilder, which we've talked about, has seen 40% increase in job views on their talent networks. These little landing pages, types of CRM types of platforms that they create for their clients, huge increase. 41% in actions taken off the search results, because the search results sucked, so nobody was actually clicking through and taking action on them. 15% on email alerts, which is big because obviously that's where a good amount of their traffic's coming from. 18% in qualified applicants in specifically top categories. Trying to get that top talent back in using CareerBuilder. Chad: Once again, CareerBuilder, who has developed recruitment technology, job search technology, for over a decade said, "Guess what? Screw this. Google does it better, we're going to use their shit, which is now called Cloud Talent Solution." Joel: Cloud Talent Solution. You know Chad, you and I once ran for president of Monster. Chad: Yes. Joel: Maybe we should do a little commercial on brainstorming a new name for Google hire with cloud API jobs talent solution, or whatever they're calling it today. Chad: Yeah. Well here's the thing though, Google Hire, or I'm sorry, Hire by Google, which again has switched around and changed since the inception, isn't a part of Cloud Talent Solution. This is an entirely different segment. This is their API enterprise segment. Then the ATS, Hire by Google, is entirely different. Joel: Hey Google, people want to use your shit, but HR people need things sort of clearly spelled out for them. Chad: Easy. Joel: Go down to marketing, which I'm sure has a few people at Google. Chad: Yes. Joel: Figure out a name for all this stuff and stick with it. Chad: Tie it together. I mean seriously, because Google Hire, I'm sorry, Hire by Google, see this shit's all fucked up. Hire by Google uses these APIs, so it really in a sense is a product of. They should all be together. I mean, they want to split shit up, but man, keep it simple, stupid. Joel: Chad and I talk about this shit every week, and we're confused. What do you think about the average person out there? Joel: The most exciting thing, I think we agree, is the matching solution that Google's come out with, yes? Chad: Yeah. I mean it's, so the matching solution right now is only available in Hire by Google. What they've come out with is this new candidate search API. What's happening, much like Job Search, on the candidate search side what can happen is that your candidate search is going to be much better than what it's been. Your recruiters, who are using your database to actually search your resume database in your applicant tracking system, you'll be able to actually find qualified candidates. Chad: Because in most cases, applicant tracking job search sucks, that's just the way it is. Yellow, who after only seven weeks of using Google's candidate search, they reported that, to their clients, "Quest Diagnostics is seeing a 58% increase in candidate search quality." Bloomberg is seeing a 73% increase in candidate search quality. This technology is helping to surface great talent that you already have, that you've already paid for. Joel: Yup. Launching private beta enables recruiters and sources to, “Easily discover top talent in their existing candidate databases." Chad: Crazy. Joel: You and I think it's only a matter of time before it helps you source and easily discover top talent in other people's databases. Chad: Yes. Joel: And other databases around the internet. Coming to a Google product near you. Chad: As you start to take a look at these two APIs, so you talk about matching, so now you have a job API and you've got a candidate API. You have those two things, now you can start the conversation around machine learning and matching through this. That was actually a part of the presentation as kind of like future state of where Google's going. They need you to have both of those APIs locked in. Definitely if you're an applicant tracking system, you should be hard on this one. Getting these locked in so that the machines can start doing their learning, and they can start the matching process. Joel: Sourcers, if you're not sharpening up your resume and CV, you might want to do that. However, don't send it to Mcdonalds, because a story out this week by Mcdonalds, or a study on Mcdonalds, says that they're going to be kiosking in the very near future. You won't have to talk to a human to order your big macs and your fries. Chad's recently been to Europe and says basically everyone's out of work there because everything is koisked when you go to Mcdonalds. Tell us about that Chad. Chad: Yeah. It was pretty interesting, because here in the Midwest I actually jumped into a Mcdonalds, and I noticed the kiosk. I think we talked about this on several other pods. The UI sucks, yada, yada, yada, but they've got like liaison people that are there to kind of shepherd you to these new touch boards where you order on the touch boards, because it's new. Well the family and I, we were in Europe for three weeks this summer. It was funny going through France we stopped, and it was interesting because there were none of these liaisons because guess what? It was standard. Chad: This is something that they've had in place for a while. Yeah, this is where it's going. MacDonald's, you would have thought possibly would have used the US for this type of test. But apparently, they're doing this in Europe for a while. Joel: We're way too stupid to be the test market for this. I will add that I think mobile ordering will also be huge in the coming years. I know that at my local McDonald's, which I rarely go to as you know, you can order on your phone, you pull up, they have slots in the parking lot for mobile ordering. You go there and it knows that you're at the McDonald's and it says, "Are you here?" You say, "Yes," and then within five minutes your order comes out nice and hot in a bag and you say, "Good-bye." There's no going into the store, there's no sitting in line at the drive-thru. It's a pretty nice system. Yes, food is quickly and probably will be the first to be automated and get people acclimated to how this stuff works. Chad: Like shopping at Walmart, dude. Right now, the way that Julie grocery shops is, she goes online, puts all the stuff in her cart, sends it, takes the cart, opens up the trunk, signs something on a pad, they load it up and she comes back. There is some job creation that's happening there because you've got actual personal shoppers doing that work instead of the cashiers who now generally just go through the self-serve. So there is some swapping that's happening there in the job creation, or actually not really job creation, just the migration of where the jobs are within that ecosystem. It's really cool to watch. Joel: How far is she from wanting at-front-door service for that stuff? Chad: If she could get that done, it would be done because she hates grocery shopping. Joel: Because I think that's where eventually a lot of that stuff will go and they'll probably be delivered by a drone created by Jeff Bezos and come from Whole Foods. But I digress. Joel: However, there's also a story, although we're high on automation and see this thing happening in real time, Uber is in the news. Tell us about that. Chad: It's weird because there's a ton of opportunity in the trucking environment for autonomous trucking delivery because obviously we don't have enough truck drivers. We talk about it all the time. There's a great opportunity to make a shit ton of cash in autonomous driving. We've seen companies embark in Waymo and all these different companies who were doing this because they see cash is there. But Uber said, "You know what? We're getting out of this and we're shifting all of our resources to the car portion of our autonomous driving." It just doesn't make sense to me from a business standpoint. Joel: Now, to you, is this a testament to Uber, to self-driving trucks? Like, to me, I think trucking is in such a tight labor market that, to me, that has to happen. Trucking has to become autonomous. Maybe Uber just thinks, "We're not the one to do it, let's focus our resources on the consumer-based car stuff." I think Waymo, although we rarely hear much about it or talk about it, because they're really quiet, I think Waymo is kicking ass on the self-driving consumer cars. I also think, it was in the news recently that Apple has like five thousand people working on autonomous vehicles, which is not insignificant. To me, maybe it was Uber saying, "Look, trucking is great, but we've got these consumer things. We've got Apple, Google breathing down our neck, right here at home. Let's focus resources on that." Or, do you think it is, "We're getting out of autonomous altogether and we're just starting with trucks?" Chad: No, they won't, they will not get out of autonomous. The thing is, and you think of this in building a business, that you go where the money is first. And you know the money ... and where it's easier to actually get to that money. So, it's the path of least resistance, "There's cash, boom, go get it." And then, what I can do, and that's trucking. Because trucking is much easier, believe it or not, traveling thousands of miles in a truck on highway is much easier than navigating in New York City or Indianapolis or anything like that. The opportunity to arrive at scale will be at the trucking industry when it comes to autonomous. That will be number one because it is easier. That's the hard part for me because if it's easier, you go there, you obviously sell and boom, the next thing you know, you're making cash which funnels back into the harder portion of your business which will be the cars. That's just my thinking and obviously they're incredibly smart people, but they're ejecting out of trucks which is the path of least resistance to cash. Joel: Yeah, it's much easier to do a deal with Peterbilt or whoever, for trucking and get a bunch of trucks on the road quickly as opposed to doing a deal with GM or creating your own whatever. You and I have both seen these Waymo cars out in California, look like little bubble cars. I agree that the path of least resistance is trucking. And it makes me think we should get someone on a podcast to talk about automation driverless cars and trucks to really better understand what's going on in trucking and automation for cars in general to see where all the players are. Because I don't think I have a good sense of all the players and who's going to strike the right balance for what companies. So maybe it's something we dig into on an exclusive. Chad: That might be a little fun. That might be fun. Joel: I agree. Speaking of fun, Facebook is also rumored to be getting into the matching game. We just talked about Google getting into the candidate matching game, we talked a little bit about LinkedIn recently, I think, with their small business solution where you post a job and then LinkedIn magically gives you candidates that they think fit the job. While I was at JobG8 this week, Matt Charney, industry expert, longtime blogger, was the keynote and talked about ... he's under embargo actually, but still revealed it anyway, that Facebook is in the near term, coming soon with a similar matching solution where you post your job on Facebook, Facebook scours its three billion users and provides you with the candidates or users that it thinks match your job the best. Joel: To me, this is really huge just for the fact that Facebook has the most people, they don't have as much data, for sure, as a LinkedIn does. We don't know much about the algorithm of how it matches. I'm assuming that it's people that are close to you as opposed to far from you, it's maybe education or where they went to school, maybe it's whatever work stuff they have, maybe it's stuff that they like. If they have an engineering degree and they're liking a bunch of engineering stories, maybe that's part of the algorithm. But it's pretty interesting to me that the big three didn't take very long to leverage their power of database technology to start matching folks with job postings that you're putting on there. Chad: I have to say that Facebook has already proven their matching skills with matching Russians with political candidates. They already have this thing down so why not bring it to the employment space. Seriously, content in itself in a social platform, we have so much time that's spent on social platforms and there's so much behavior that's sucked up into the platform, they have plenty of data to be able to target on. Yeah, this makes a hell of a lot of sense. The question is, where do you think LinkedIn, being a social professional whatever network aligned with Microsoft is at to be able to do the same types of things? Joel: I think that, in terms of AI, automation matching, relevant searches, related searches, those three companies have a big leg up on anybody else in our space. I think, to me, it's partly the data. We know that LinkedIn is heavy on professional, we're not quite sure that they have the small business environment or the profiles to help small businesses although I think they've got to go after it. They're seeing ZipRecruiter growing, they're seeing Facebook getting into this, Google's going to get into this. Small businesses don't have HR departments, they don't have recruiting teams. So for them to be able to post a job and have magically, "Here's 25 candidates and oh, by the way, do you want to send them an I message, do you want to send them a message on LinkedIn and start prescreening these folks and maybe scheduling interviews?" That's a godsend for small businesses. Joel: So to me, that totally makes sense. And both of those have the platforms with messaging and with prescreening and automation chatbot type stuff to really make that a reality. And it's happening really fast. All these guys are full speed ahead on the Enterprise Workforce Solutions and it's really exciting. I think the next couple years are going to be really amazing in terms of the things that we're just talking about like prescreening, setting up scheduled interviews, maybe hiring people through these platforms if they fit the bill on high frequency stuff. By the way, quick shout-out, we're doing a webinar with Talroo about high frequency hiring with NAS. Hopefully, part of the topic will be this automation piece and how that fits into high frequency hiring. But, to me, that's all very exciting. I think they'll all be part winners. I think at some point, LinkedIn has to spend some money, ZipRecruiter style and Deeds style, to talk about how they are a small business solution. Chad: They are right now, on XM radio. Joel: Oh, are they? Chad: On XM radio. That's what I was going to say is that now LinkedIn is starting to do the ZipRecruiter thing which is spend a bunch of money on XM radio. And it's specific to SMB as well which is incredible. Joel: Yeah, ZipRecruiter set the playbook a few years ago, like be everywhere, radio, television- Chad: Podcasts. Joel: ... to get in front of these business owners, podcasts. Yeah, I think that's great. I think at some point Facebook has to advertise too, like either find a job on Facebook or hire people on Facebook because once they start advertising, I think it really starts to take off. Chad: Very nice, very nice. Joel: By the way, interesting point. Facebook recent quarterly reports, I don't know if you saw this, we didn't talk about it before, but they're kind of sucking right now. It looks like growth is stalled or plateaued in North American and parts of Europe. In looking at that, Facebook has to be saying, "Everyone who can be on Facebook is almost on Facebook, particularly in developed countries. So how do we start twisting that revenue dial higher and higher?" Video, obviously, I think is where they're going to go in part of that. But I think part of it, as we've seen with their messaging, their Slack competitor and what they're doing on the jobsite is, "Let's get into Enterprise Workforce hiring shit and help us recover some of the money that we're losing on advertising due to a lack of growth." Just my two cents. Joel: Let's take a quick break and hear from our buddies and budettes at America's Job Exchange. When we come back, we'll talk about, whoa, LinkedIn and Indeed, two companies- Chad: What? Joel: ... we never talk about. I know, odd. AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our tenth year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women and minorities. And empower employers to pursue and track active outrage with their local community-based organizations. AJE: Want to learn more? Call us at 866-926-6284 or visit us at: www.americasjobexchange.com. Chad: Get your compliance on people! Chad: Okay, so I sent a message over to Avi in Israel before we got on the podcast. I said, "Come on, man, what's going on?" This is what he sent. Just so you guys know, whenever Chad gets something- Joel: Tell people who Avi is. Chad: I will, give me a second. Whenever Chad gets something, I always make sure that I take some to Joel whether it's a Talroo or it's a ZipRecruiter. That's doesn't matter. So this is Avi, who's pretty much in charge of all the cool ass tech that ZipRecruiters has over in Israel, says, "Was supposed to get to both of you. Ask Cheese to save you some of the alcohol," since he sent two bottles. Joel: There's one bottle. No. Chad: Aha. Joel: That's crap. Chad: Just so everybody knows, if you send schwag and you just want to send one box, send it to me because I'll make sure that Joel gets some. You can't send it to Joel because he fricking bogart's the entire thing. Joel: I got one bottle. That's total bullshit. Total bullshit. Chad: I don't know man. Joel: Yeah, that's crap. And you're more than welcome to partake if you come and visit me at some point this summer. Yes, you may have some. But for Avi to say that there were two bottles in that box is bullshit. Throw me under the bus. Joel: Anyway, while Facebook is having shitty revenues, you have some news that says LinkedIn isn't suffering from the same problem. Chad: Yeah, dude. Up 37%, what's that say? That's no small doing. They're already pulling a shit ton of revenue as it is, but up 37%. This is what Microsoft obviously wanted to see. This is one of the reasons why they spent 26.2 billion dollars for LinkedIn. And this is just a start, I believe, because as we just talked about the small business side of the house and they start to go after a market they have never touched before, really, they really haven't penetrated. They get into that market and then they start doing bigger, better Enterprise solutions, this is a great opportunity for Microsoft and LinkedIn. And hopefully, not screwing the talent acquisition market with high crazy prices. Joel: You accuse me all the time of slurping on LinkedIn and drinking the Kool-Aid and maybe you're finally understanding where I'm coming from. When they start turning the dials on the Enterprise stuff, the integration with Microsoft product and services, they start rocking the AI, they start Insights, becomes big thing, their video product is becoming popular, I think they have yet to turn the dial on advertising in any significant way. I think people forget the fact that they're a social network that's actually in China. LinkedIn is poised to be a juggernaut even more than it is. I've been talking about it for years and maybe you're finally coming to the light that I've been seeing for a long time. Chad: No, I was just giving you shit because you got a LinkedIn tattoo. That's the only reason. Joel: I have a LinkedIn tramp stamp, I don't even know what the hell ... yeah, anyway, back to the '90s. Joel: They've got to be careful not to get comfortable. They've got to be careful not to become douchebags like so many companies have in our space, but they are, yeah, they're going to be a major big three player in employment. But they also, in addition to revenues, they continually add new features and they're adding new products. They added voice mails this past week, I believe, and it's getting mixed reviews. Essentially what happens is, it's a native application. When you send someone a message, as opposed to texting out your message in an email or whatever, you can leave a voice mail. Joel: You first heard about this and gave me a big ... however, I kind of like it. Hung Lee, recruiting Brainfood guy, who loves and watches the show ... shout-out to him. I don't know if we give him enough shout-out love, but shout-out to him. He's a big fan of this. Are you still bearish on it? Are you coming around? Is it just going to be something no one cares about? Chad: I would say that no one is going to care about this, much like the Facebook voice recording messaging, whatever the hell you want to call it, that they have on Messenger. I don't know anybody ... nobody sends me voice messages on Facebook, not to mention, you've got to remember, this is a professional network. Now, guess what. Not only do I get these messages from sales people who are trying to pitch me via the text version, I'm going to get these fricking long voice mail bullshit ... Dude, I don't want that. Joel: All right. So time out. All right. And I agree, sales people will eventually fuck this up and marketers will fuck this up. But right now, if I want to get to an HR person to sell a product, I have to call them over and over, leave multiple voice mails. When they listen to the voice mail, they don't know who I am, they probably don't know who the company is, they just probably erase voice mails altogether. So this is at least a unique way that I can get a voice mail, I can hear what they have to say, I can see the person on LinkedIn, I can go to their profile to see who they work for, I can go look at the company. I can dig a little deeper than I can just picking up the phone and hearing a voice mail that says, "Hey, this is Bobby Joe with such-and-such company. You've never heard of us before or heard of me, but buy our product and call me back." Joel: At least this is a way to cut through the clutter of a regular voice mail and give some sort of information about who I am and who I work for that didn't exist before. Hung Lee's thing is, he thinks voice mail, traditional voice mail, is going to die and that this is the way that we will leave messages for people in a b2b type environment. Only time will tell. Chad: If I don't listen to voicemails on my phone, this is still on my phone, okay? It's in an app on my phone, it's the same damn thing that I don't want right now. And you're just putting it in a messenger that I use and I like. So no, I don't- Joel: A lot of people won't even answer the phone if they don't know ... like they'll just deny the call, send a text like, "Hey, can't talk right now," or, "I don't know who you are, leave alone." This could be a way to get LinkedIn push notification, like you have a voicemail or a message to communicate with people and get through to them where you didn't before. Joel: Now, again, this will work for about a year and then people will be like, "I hate these things. I get 10 LinkedIn voicemails a day." And LinkedIn will eventually allow you to turn it off. And people will turn off and then will go to something else. But for at least a year, I think, marketers have an opportunity to do this and cut through the clutter and actually get to people that they didn't get to before. Chad: Yeah. I think it sucks. Joel: Well, what doesn't suck, depending on your perception or perspective- Chad: What the fuck? Joel: Are baby bathrobes. Yes, I said baby bathrobes. I'm scrolling through Instagram recently and I follow Indeed, they're a fun company, right? They got t-shirts, they're in different parts of the world, they're always doing stuff. Well, anyway, I saw one pic the other day that made me do a double take. It was a baby in an Indeed bathrobe. And not an adult bathrobe, a baby bathrobe, like it fit a baby. So, I'm thinking to myself, if this isn't a jump the shark moment, I don't know what it. If your company is so comfortable that they're spending money to put babe sin bathrobes, it might be time to reconsider your marketing project. Chad: Yeah, and what they should be sending out are prison jumpsuits to all these companies that they're throwing in Indeed jail. That's what they should be doing. Joel: Oh, that's awesome. I'm thinking like action figures, like, "Congratulations, welcome to Indeed jail." Chad: Right, no shit. Right? Joel: They could have a little shank, they could have- Chad: I mean, that's more real to life. Really, Indeed is not this warm, fuzzy, terry cloth kind of feel. They are a prison jumpsuit kind of company. Joel: They are barbed wire, sand paper pair of underwear people. Chad: Except, I think, for the Canadians. You think the Indie Canadian group, I think they're a lot softer. Joel: I don't know if Workopolis folks would say the same thing. Joel: Tim Sackett is wearing sand paper underwear. Chad: Tim Sackett has an Indeed jumpsuit on right now. Joel: Okay, so also, Indeed launched four new ads this week. The sunny ads. If you haven't heard that episode, go listen. But they maybe listen to us 'cause we like the new ads a little more. Thoughts? Chad: Yeah, no. The new ads are much better. They are 30 second ads, 15 second ads, they're tighter. I think they're smarter. They are very much more akin to what Monster is doing right now. So I think they're almost taking in some of the mOnster recipe on what Monster's doing well. Which is not that stupid purple monster thing, it's the little 15 second ads, are you half in, half out kind of thing. Chad: So I think they're being smart about it and they've gotten away from the ... I love that song Sunny, but now they screwed it up for me. Joel: Yeah, I agree with the short sort of, the snippet of ads, the 15 second, great for social media, great for YouTube viewers, et cetera. Now, Monster takes a much more comedic approach to their ads, which historically, has been really popular. Joel: These Indeed ads look like they're ready for the red carpet at the Oscar's. They are high level HD, pretty people are in them, the visuals are great. The long one where the guy's on the elevator, looks like he's quitting his job, and he's starting anew job, that looks like a Scorsese piece. Si agree the shorter time set is very Monster-like and very common. But these guys really very touchy feely, they're not like Zip Recruiter where, "Oh, post your job, candidates come, they fill positions." They're very warm and feely, touchy, Oscar, Emmy nominated, wanna-be type ads that we like. I don't know if they'll do the trick and save them from the big G. But for the time being. Chad: Yeah, the big question is, what are they gonna do with all the stuff that's going on with Google? The new candidate API and whatnot. Are they gonna finally join in somehow with Google to try and win back some of that traffic that they lost? You think they are just way too far down the path? Joel: What they will do is they will put their ads on Glass Door, which they bought a while back. .and Glass Door will still be playing nicely with Google, and that's the way that they will Trojan Horse Google by leveraging Glass Door. Although, I am looking closely to see if Glass Door disappears from Google search results, because that would be a clear message that's says, "We're totally pulling everything off of Google and we're totally on our own." But until that case, we'll see what happens. Chad: We'll see. We'll see. Joel: Let's take a quick break. We're running long as we knew we would because we have a lot of stuff to cover. But let's hear a quick word from our buddies at JobAdX, who by the way, were at Nashville at Job Gate. It was great to see them. Chad: Love them. Joel: Let's see what they're up too. Be right back. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of ... or it's the PayPal of ... maybe they're the Facebook of ... " In many, many cases, these comparisons fall short to being close to reality or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on, that's it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google AdSense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, consistent, and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs, and staffing firms, real time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. JobAdX: All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click, or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regrets. For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best in pragmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. JobAdX: We also provide publishes and job boards, higher ad share than other partners. We are a smarter pragmatic platform. In many cases, 30 to 40% greater and more through our scalable model. To partner with us, you can visit or search JobAdX.com or email us at, join us at JobAdX.com to get estimates or begin working together. JobAdX: JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter pragmatic for your needs. Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX has just launched in the UK too. Chad: I think it's brilliant that they say, "and you've been wondering about the British accent." It's like no, I really wasn't but oh, now you're in the UK! That's pretty awesome. Joel: Yeah, I'm waiting for the German accent and the French accent. Canadian accents, but yeah. Met with those folks out in Nashville, and according to them, a majority of their inbound leads come from the Chad and Cheese podcast. So the sponsorships working which is great for everybody. Chad: Kick ass, baby. Kick ass. Joel: Cashing checks and snapping necks. Well- Chad: Yes. Joel: Upwork, which we rarely talk about, if at all, and we probably should, has apparently filed for an IPO, quietly. Upwork is born out of E-Lance and freelancer or something like that. One of the sites I actually use regularly, whether it's with Ratedly, or other projects. Like it's great, it's a market place. So you can hire everything from developers to marketers to sales people to designers, they're reviewed of course. You're reviewed on their end, payment is processed through Upwork. If you look at the gig economy and where things are going, people working on contract, people working on project basis, Upwork to me is the major player in all of that. And if I were looking at a company ... you know, if you told me would I rather invest in Upwork or Glass Door going public, I think I'd pick Upwork all day because that's where the growth ... and they're more or less a monopoly in this space. Joel: You have someone like Fiber and a few others that are niche with certain skill sets, but Upwork to me, I'm really interested to see them go public because I think they are a sleeping giant with a growing gig economy around the world. Chad: That bears no question. And I mean, they're growth, I think they're like in over 150 countries and they have over a billion in revenues. Dude, they are, I believe, a success story. And a model for how we should be looking at really this new market. It's how people are going to be getting jobs, kind of Uber-ish. But I think it's incredibly cool, it's easy to use on both sides. Whether you are trying to find talent or you are talent, in payment or receiving payment. And that's what it all comes down too, it's all about the ease of use. And being able to find who you want quickly and make sure that they get paid and you get your work done. Joel: Yeah, and I think they're just starting to scratch the surface of the enterprise opportunity. Because I see more and more bigger companies have managers who don't manage internal work forces, and they manage Upwork contractors and Upwork freelancers and their goal is they're on Upwork and they're managing their team, via Upwork as opposed to their own slack, their internal system, or email, or whatever trail that they're using. Joel: So to me, a great skill set to have is being able to manage an Upwork work force. Because I think that's where, both by necessity and by just by costs, because you don't have to pay health insurance for these folks, they work all the time, around the clock, around the world. It's a great business, so I'm really excited actually to see how Upwork does. What kind of numbers they report, what kind of growth they're seeing because I think that'll be a really great news story. Chad: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and we should talk more about Upwork because they're doing a damn good job. Joel: Yup. And we'll really know how good once they go public, 'cause they'll have to record that shit. Chad: Which is probably why Snag, old Fabioian, he was the CEO over at Upwork, wasn't he? Joel: He was. I think he was the founder of E-Lance, or one of those companies. And when they merged together or whatever and became Upwork, he was the CEO. And then eventually, moved over on the board of Snag. So yeah, I expect to see good things from Snag under his leadership. Chad: Yeah, no kidding, no kidding. Having a guy of that caliber stepping into a leadership position is nothing but good for a brand and a company like Snag. Because again, there is so much opportunity that's there, he has the background at Upwork. This just makes a hell of a lot of sense and is incredibly smart for Snag. Joel: Yeah, I think we both agree that Snag's new model of sort of Uber for hourly workers is a great one. It looks like Peter, the former CEO wasn't the guy to do it. His Glass Door rating, his CEO rating was 41%, which is not good. Chad: Sucked. Joel: So apparently, internally there were some issues. He wasn't getting it done, but I think we both like the idea, we like the brand. So hopefully they can make that work because they're getting a lot of competition from Parrot and others. Joel: Canvas, I guess we can talk about whoever closed this bad boy up. But our buddies at Canvas, here in Indianapolis, unveiled a new, what I would call millennial inspired, unfortunately millennials ar inspiring everything but they're adding Bitmojis to their messaging platform. Joel: I don't use Bitmojis, do you? Chad: I don't use Bitmojis, I use GIFS. Joel: Yeah, you and I have entire conversations with GIFS. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chad: So I mean, I could see ... and it makes a hell of a lot of sense because the millennial work force, I think now, bigger than the boomer work fore, which obviously is falling off the implement cliff at this point because they're retiring and they're doing what they do, good for them. So yeah, they're gonna be the targets. How do you they actually communicate? Is it through Bitmojis, to me doesn't make sense, but again, I'm not a millennial. So, I don't know man. Joel: Yeah, I think it just promotes personality, a face, some emotion to the conversation, some humor maybe. So those for who don't know, we have a lot of old people like us listening, so Bitmojis are basically animated caricatures of yourself that you create. Chad: Avatars. Joel: From messaging, avatars I guess. And these Bitmojis are animations that look like you. We'll have certain situations where like maybe they're at a water cooler saying, "Great job." Or they're at a fax machine, I guess they don't use that anymore, whatever it is. Whatever business people do, they're in a cubicle, maybe they're in an office setting somewhere, doing something fun, that's a Bitmoji. Like to me, that is pointless. And I will admit that my father, whose much older than a millennial, my sister turned history on to these and he loves them. So maybe it's just boomers and millennials alike are using this. Joel: I do think it shows some personality to Canvas as well. So if I were choosing between Canvas and a competitor, if Canvas has this fun little animated thing, like I would think, "Okay, that's kind of cool. It's a differentiator. Maybe it would sway me to use Canvas over a competitor." Chad: And Canvas has had two big announcements lately. The Jobvite integration with Jobvite and then this one. And again, if you're looking for organizations, and this isn't a Canvas commercial for goodness sakes, but if you're an organization and you're trying to get out there and have good PR and obviously have a story to tell, these are the types of things that you want, man. You want that big name integration and you want little kind of silly things like just to talk about. That perspectively, really impacts a huge portion of the work force. Joel: Yeah, and I think the whole messaging thing is just getting started. I mean, TextRecruit laid the groundwork and continues to innovate. Canvas, Emissary we've talked about, Talk Push is one that I think we'll be talking about going to the future. Of course, Facebook with their messaging. Does Slat get into messaging candidates at some point? It's a big deal. Joel: So we'll stay on top of it, but until then, I have nothing to add. We're close to an hour on podcast. So I'm ready to say, "we out," if you are. Chad: We out. Stella: Hi, this is Stella Cheesman. Thanks for listening to the Cheese and Chad podcast, or at least that's what I call it. Anyway, make sure you subscribe on iTunes, that silly Android phone thingy, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to give buckets of money to our sponsors. Otherwise, I may be forced to take that coal mining job I saw on Monsters.com. Stella: We out. #Google #GoogleHire #CloudTalentSolution #Careerbuilder #JohnsonJohnson #McDonalds #Upwork #Indeed #UberFreight #Canvas

It took over a year to convince Joe Shaker, Jr., president of Shaker Recruitment Marketing to be a guest on The Chad & Cheese Podcast, but he acquiesced. The state of the recruitment ad agency is as interesting as it's ever been. From newspapers to job boards to branding to tech, and even their newest acquisition of The Arland Group. We cover all the bases. Enjoy this Nexxt exclusive interview. PODCAST TRANSCRIPT Announcer: This, the Chad and Cheese podcast, brought to you in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit TATECH.org. Chad: Okay Joel, quick question. Joel: Yup. Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates or you're texting or it goes off. Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah, I know. I call it our "Pavlovian dog reflex" of messaging. Joel: Yeah, that's probably why text messaging has a fricking 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: Crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why the Chad and Cheese podcast love.. Joel: Yeah. Chad: ..Text2hire from NEXXT. Joel: Love it. Chad: Yup, that's right. NEXXT, with the double X. Not the triple x. Joel: Boom chica bow wow. So if you're in town acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI, that stands for "return on investment" folks. And because this is the Chad and Cheese podcast, you can try your first text to hire campaign for just 25% off. Boom. Chad: So how do you get this discount you're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell them Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You go to chadcheese.com and you click on the NEXXT logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long URL to remember. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Just go where you know. Chadcheese.com and NEXXT. With two x's. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR'S most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Welcome to another episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Today we have an interview with.. Joel: Yeah, that's right. Chad: Joe Shaker Jr. Chad: Welcome Joe. President of Shaker Recruitment Marketing and you guys, I mean, Shaker has been around for a hot minute, right? How long have you guys..tell us, give us a little background on Shaker. Joe: I'd be happy to Chad. We have been around for a little bit. 1951 actually was when our agency started, so we're going on six decades now of recruitment marketing. Started by my grandfather. So very proud of the fact that I am third generation leading the organization. But you know, always helping organizations recruit new talent so I will believe we are one of the longest running recruitment ad agencies out there and there's early stories go back in time to, you know, Bernie Hodes and my grandfather actually having many good times touring the US helping organizations through talent acquisition or back then, recruiting. So yeah, it's been a long family history. A long tenure that we're proud to be part of the Shaker family legacy. Joel: So third generation. Was this a voluntary job for you? Or was this sort of at gun point that you decided to be in the business? Joe: 100% voluntary Joel. I mean I am one of 24 in the third gen. Some of the third gen obviously are joined the ranks, and have joined the agency. There's six of us actually in the third generation that are working currently at the business. Joel: Wow. Joe: Second gen, which is obviously my father who grew the business and his siblings are also still here. So there's a good amount of our family but we're up over a 100 employees now. So it's not just Shaker employees. With Shaker family as well as our employees, that makes up the whole entire organization. Chad: So, there's been a lot of ups and downs over the last 60 years for goodness sakes. How in the hell has Shaker been able to hold it together for so long? We've seen so many big names go by the wayside. How have you guys been able to do it? Joe: You know, I will say it's our founding principle that my grandfather, when he created the business, it's customer service. I know it's easy to say that but I do believe that's really how this agency was founded around his motto and my father's motto, "make a friend, make a deal". And in doing so, we do what I think it's two for. We've built strong relationships with our clients. Many of which we've had decades with. Some organizations have been with us 20, 30 years. Joe: But we also hold those relationships I believe very strong with the media. Because that is really, at the end of the day, where the bridge between the media and our clients. And having those strong relationships both with our media friends and partners as well as their clients is what has allowed us, I believe, to not only, you know, continue to grow but stay relevant in the industry. Joel: Historically, is you can go back to your grandfather if they were all in a room, was 2008 the hardest time? Was it 2000? I mean, what period for agencies was indeed the toughest? Joe: Sure, I mean Joel, you hit it. I think it was your last podcast. I mean, when you blast reception right, you had a couple of things I think that kind of hit the industry, it was obviously a recession which we all know our industry is tied to. Jobs are going to go up, jobs are going to go down. And our business is going to go along with it. But I believe from an agency perspective right, you also had this change in business, right? Going from print and obviously going to online. Also changed our business at the same time at which many organizations stopped recruiting. Joe: And so you had to figure out both, right? How do you stay relevant in the new era of talent acquisition and recruitment marketing as well as manage to do that in a time when not many employers were obviously hiring. And so that was probably, I would say, the most difficult but it was also, you know, in all fairness, probably really the first one I've had to lead through. And my father, who's done this longer than I have obviously, has led me through how he's done it in the past. And it's really staying true to the core and building those relationships and keeping our business in tact. Joe: Because we all know it's going to come around, no venture organizations, like working out today are out there aggressivley recruiting and right now I believe, out of the recession, this is when the hardest times. I mean, it's so competitive out there. And I use the lines of one of my clients at Mcdonald's, David Fairhurst says "It's not a war for talent, it's like a workforce cliff and how difficult it's getting". So I think this is either a trying of a time to help organizations sustain, you know, effectively recruit the talent acquisition out there. Chad: So other than the workforce cliff, which is, I mean that's big enough as it is. What has been the biggest change in the last five years? Has it been technology? Has it been the relationships? I mean, what's really been the driving force of not just Shaker but you've seen the industry overall. Joe: Mm-hmm (affirmative). You know it's funny Chad, because a lot has changed, right? Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joe: A lot hasn't in terms of, I believe, recruiting when you look back in confusion that exists out there. The difficulty in finding right talent, right, is what is, what's making it difficult right now. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Joe: And so if you go in time, you know, it might have seemed easier, right? Because ultimately, there was just print. But even when it was just print, and Joel no offense, I'll have to disagree kind of with the statement on the last podcast. That wasn't easy, even when we were running newspaper across the US. You had to research, you had to find those newspapers. Both the nationals as well as the locals. What's the best data to run? What's the right circulation? The trade journals. You know, what's the creative in the ad? It was a difficult job and it was a time consuming job. Joe: And much like it is now, is it the aggregators? Is it the job boards? In some cases, it's still running ads in local newspapers. It's still a difficult task to put together the right media mix? But I believe the biggest thing to answer the question "What has changed the most?". Is around, you know, it's a buzz word but it's one of the most important parts, "Employment branding". Historically, we used to just create pretty ads. It was aspirational. Wasn't tied to anything. That was in the 70's and the 80's. Now, we all realize the importance of messaging. You can't do false advertising because all it's going to do is lead applicants and they're going to balance and you're not going to retain any of them. Joe: And that's what led to the explosion of employment branding. You get to that employment value proposition. And that is also, obviously, and opportunity that opened the doors for many agencies because it's obviously a service that we all provide. And I believe it's one of the most important things that our organizations have to do. As you can put together the right media mix, but if we're saying the wrong thing, what's having the right media plan going to do? Joe: Ultimately, they're just all going to bounce and the key to this whole thing is retention. Joel: I want to talk about talent for a second. You just made an acquisition, which we've talked about on the show.. Joe: Sure, yeah. Joel: .. and for our listeners who haven't heard that episode, I encourage you to do so. You've gone from about a 100 to a 110ish, according to the news that I've written and read, I assume a lot of that was the hires that you've made from the Arland group. So my question is, saying that it was difficult to, you know, what publications are we in? What is creative look like? Etc. How has talent changed from the newspaper days til now, or has it at all? Joe: No, it's definitely, I mean, it's a lot harder of a business in terms of being able having the minds to look at the traditional ways to recruit as well as look at the new emerging media. And I think having that balance right of the historic as well as the emerging is what's important. And it's a hard task. I mean, some of our, obviously for all our account directors and account managers to be able to dance the media planning that goes into that as well as looking at your creative as well as looking at the candidate experience, right? Joe: And the whole website of the house. And so, having that balance across that is, it's a hard talent to find. And you are correct, I mean one of the things obviously that definitely interests us in the Arland acquisition was the talent obviously, with their leader Deb, who I have the utmost respect for and her whole team, who are talented individuals from account directors, account executives and creative individuals. They'll be joining the ranks of Shaker's, I believe, best in class executive team and full team of employees already. I mean, when I look at my leadership team now, which excites me the most, I have Ellen and Mike Temkin, who have been with me for over 30 years. Joe: I have the likes of Dan Shaker and my cousin who came to us three years ago. What previous to that had his own creative branding shop. And so bringing his creative mind and genius into our recruiting agency has obviously propelled our creative. And then before the Arland acquisition, we also hired Peter Carr, who's got 20 years business in the industry to our executive team. Coupled with Derek Briggs, who's my COO, who used to be an actuary at Price Waterhouse. Joe: And it's those minds, right? The mathematical, the creative, the account services as well as obviously to where the industry is going I believe is going to obviously propel Shaker into the next wave. Chad: So the next wave you see is going to be really attached to the EDP and employment branding. No matter what you're doing.. Joe: Yup. Chad: ..employment brand has some kind of shape in that formula, I guess you can say. Joe: 100%. But it's just, I mean, it's that with the media, with the experience. Chad: When you talk about media and employment brand and emerging media, what is the emerging media right now that you're starting to attach employment brand to? Joe: So, I mean, the media is itself, I mean, obviously one of the buzz words in brand in terms as being thrown out there right as programmatic job distribution, right? But how does that fit in, how does that also take into consideration, I do believe some of the ways where you have to traditionally role up your sleeves and recruit. So it's not just being so, putting all your budget into programmatic or put all your budget for that matter even into sourcing. Diversification is key. I think it's glass doors that it's like media now it cans are touching 16 different sources. So how are you being in 16 different sources, especially right now where organizations are still working with limited budgets that they might have had. Joe: ... especially right now, when organizations are still working with limited budgets, that they might've had from historical years, or trying to fight for more budget. How do we make that money go further across more sources? That's what I mean by using the past, as well as looking at some of the emerging, in order to be effective. Also, we look at candidates, they're everywhere. You have to be everywhere, yet, we're still working with some pretty tight budgets right now. Joe: I would say it's not just the media. I mean, it's also ... Right? It's that message and then it goes into that, the whole candidate experience side of the house. It's those areas that are important. Chad: And trying not to dilute the overall spend, right? You're trying to get a good base, a strong base, but not trying to dilute at the same time. Joe: 100%, I mean, a lot of times clients will say, "Well, let's take all our money, and put it into, put out branding, because we have to invest in it." Well, if we spend all that money in the employment brand, then there's nothing left over to go find those candidates, or address the experience, what's the point? So it's leveraging spreading them across those three bucket as well as of course putting diversification within each of those. Because developing employment brand, you're developing one, no in many cases, right? It's one EVP, but it's been segmented out across a variety of different industries. So, how was it like to work in IT versus how it's like to work in marketing. We have to take that EVP, and segment it down so it's even, you know, diversifying the spend within the appropriate buckets there as well. Joel: You mentioned a few new technologies you said programmatic, and obviously the SHRM confrence just sort of finished up last month, and I know that you guys, there in your own backyard in Chicago, were attendees in the vendor space. I know that you personally got to a lot of conferences, as well as have exhibited in a lot of them over the years. How would you sort of explain this year's SHRM confrence, particularly the exhibit hall, what kind of trends are you seeing, or what sort of things do you expect to become hotter in the coming months and years? Joe: Sure, I think it was exciting, I know you guy, I thought you were there as well. Looking at the SHRM show, even just last week, we're at the NCHRS Show up in Scottsdale, I mean the exhibit halls are packed. Every show that we go to there's more, and more and most important I think what's most exciting to, and there's more, and more new people coming to the space, right. Joe: I think you guys do a fabulous job, obviously on the start ups, as well as covering the investment in our space. I've never seen it in the years, I'm not going to say how long I've been doing this, because I know I'll age myself, but I've never seen more investment being thrown in the talent acquisition space specific on the technology side more in recent times, talking with my father he would agree. Joe: That's exciting especially for organization such as ourselves, as the advisors to our clients, to be able to look at those solutions, and I believe finally attentions being put on to the importance of talent acquisition, and you know we're not just standing by, and saying, "Well, it's the ATS's problem, there's nothing we can do about it." People are finding, smart people are coming in, and solving those business issues that are making it easier to effectively recruit. So I think it's been the most exciting times in our industry. Chad: It's exciting, but it's also confusing as hell, right? Because we have so many start ups that are out there. Then we have all these companies, these vendors, who are trying to reinvent themselves. I mean, what is your team doing? Because there's so much that's happening out there. Joel and I try to cover as much as we possibly can, but how can you get into this, really all of this excitement, and also play off the confusing piece. Most talent acquisition professionals have no clue what programmatic means, and that's just programmatic, not talking about everything else that's happening. So, how are you guys actually going after that business with this huge explosion of not just dollars, but start ups. Joe: Sure. Well, I mean the biggest thing is, I'll say and I think from an agencies, it's being a trusted advisor, right? Being that clients partner, and so as we approach it from an unbiased perspective, and the media we're doing the same thing from a technology perspective, and making sure that obviously it's our, at the end of the day it's what our clients need. It's in their best interest, and then that's when we bring in those solutions. In some cases it might be provider A, in other cases it might be Provider B. I think it's important that everyone stays in those lanes. I think as we move through this, you can call it complicated, confusing industry, I think where a lot of companies might stray one way or the other, you know, it's important that we all stay in our lanes. Joe: Medias can't be an ad agency, I don't believe an ad agency can be a media, or be a technology provider. So, that's kind of I believe we're navigating through it, and I think that's where our clients can see the most value, is that they realize that we're going in their best interest. Chad: So, and this goes to one of the questions I was going to ask, with regard to staying in your lane. There are so many vendors that out there, who want to try to go direct, and go away from the agency, but also you're starting, I mean we've seen agencies do the exact same thing. Where instead of trying to be that unbiased, really third party, who's trying to help a company, they develop there own technology, and it's like, "Hey you don't have to go any where else, come straight to us." Chad: So, do you believe that with this new explosion of start ups, that a lot of these different agencies will be able to say that there is no way that they can keep up with the technology, number one, and number two, what would you say to all those vendors that are out there. I'm going to give you a platform here. What would you say to all those vendors that are out there that feel like they can just go direct, and try to go around the agency? Joe: Sure, so obviously I can only speak to my agency right, and to Shaker, you know when others do, and I think it's made sense, and you know, that's their decisions. I can just tell you how we're approaching it. I think when you look at it, there's enough business honestly for everybody. But really it is about partnerships, like I said at the beginning. That's how Shaker, how its always been. I mean I remember as a youngster going to, and Joel you'll appreciate this, old Chicago Bulls Championships when they won six of them. Joe: You know I had to get the sports angle in. Lucky for Ron, I do think LeBron has one six, but Jordan has. But anyway, I mean, I would go to those championship games with my father, with the likes of the Sun Times, and the Tribune. These were some of my father's best friends, still are to this day. Those partnerships with the media, ultimately, when you get that partnership with that agency, as well as the media, wins the client. Then obviously the agency, and of course the media partners too. Joe: So, it's been proven, we got 60 years of success on when that partnerships, how they can be effective, and how they can be beneficial for all parties. I think the media needs to understand, and the partners need to understand out there, is that's why obviously organizations go to ad agencies like myself, and to many of my peers, is they're looking for the advice, they look those recommendations. That's what we provide them. So, when you do this in cooperation, they're going to benefit. Where you get competitive, that's where obviously I believe issues come up and no one wins. The agencies don't win, the media doesn't win. Most importantly our clients don't win. Joel: Joe, what products, and services are employers asking about the most? Also which products, and services do you see sort of fading currently? Joe: Yeah, I would say probably the biggest product running that many organizations are out there actively looking for, and seeking is around programmatic job distribution, you know obviously, the importance of it I believe in. We're strong opponents of it. I believe that this is something that obviously isn't going to stop. It's going to continue to expand in this industry, just like where how job postings should go. They went from newspapers via Ad send, to job postings via the job distributors like eQuest and Broadbean and Job Target, and obviously now job postings being done through programmatic job distribution, but really giving clients the capabilities now to base there media buying off of metrics in real time, being flexible not locking in to set contracts amount hoping that the right amount of postings was purchased at the start of the year, and putting rules in and sponsoring jobs that need to be sponsored, and unsponsoring jobs that don't need it. I mean that's something that I believe that isn't going to stop, it's going to continue to evolve. It's done it in the traditional marketing world, and so it just makes sense obviously that it transfers over into the recruitment marketing arena as well. Joe: You're right we didn't talk about much today around AI. I do believe obviously that's another area that's going to of course continue to evolve. The way artificial intelligence is being utilized from a sourcing perspective and helping people proactively got out there and find those right candidates. To I believe AI provides a great resource in helping find that needle in a hay stack. In addition the likes of a Hiring Solveds and Entelos, accessing individuals that didn't even put their resumes into a data base, right. It's finding that passive impulsive candidate who's going to be even easier utilizing those technologies. Joe: Then you got the candidate experience side is so hard for organizations to say, "Well we can't talk to every single candidate that comes to a career site." They don't have the teams in place to be able to address every single one of them, so how so we respond to candidates in a quick manner and give them updates, and I believe the chat bots like Olivia or Paradox or Recruiting.ai are addressing some of those business challenges, and I believe are going to continue to evolving, and make it even more easier for organizations to improve their candidate experience using technology. Joe: On the same hand, I don't see computers taking over the whole talent acquisition process. This is a people business, organizations are going to need to sell people on why they should come work for their organization. Individuals aren't going to make life changing decisions without feeling for the organization, and talking to someone in the industry. So I don't believe, you know, or there's some schools of thought where, you know, AI and robots are going to take over the whole talent acquisition space. I think it's a balance between the two. Chad: Okay, Joe, so you talk about the impact of AI, and chat bots, but what about the 800 pound gorilla in the room. I mean, what impact is Google having on recruiting today, and your prediction of Google's recruiting industry impact in the future? So, how's it hitting us today, and what do you see in the future for Google? Joe: So, I would definitely would say it's probably one of the most exciting announcements, right, in involvements in our industry, and probably in recent time, and if not, if you go over the history of Shaker, I mean as someone, like at Google I believe taking notice right of the talent acquisition recruitment marketing. Chad: It's legit. Joe: It is legit. Honestly, there's no denying their involvement, as we all know it's not just one area, right. They're looking into three, whether it be ATS, very entry level obvious, with there search API, and obviously in the connection between the job postings, and the candidates, and then of course Google for jobs, obviously right there in driving traffic to the job boards, as well as directing to company career sites. So, they're covering it in three areas, and I already gone right, internationally as they launched in obviously Chad: The UK, yeah. Joe: Yeah, just this week, so, they're not joking around like they never do. I believe you know, the excitement I see outside of Google for jobs, I think is obviously a great distribution point for job boards, and for clients direct. So, I mean for our clients, it's important, it's essential we make sure whatever technology platform recruitment marketing platform they're on, is distributing their jobs right into Google for jobs. It's driving awareness, I believe, in our industry to search engine marketing. I mean doing search engine marketing is not new to recruitment, but it's got a lot of attention now, because obviously individuals are looking at, "Well, how... Joe: Marketing. But it's got a lot of attention now, because obviously individuals are looking like- Well, how do I sponsor my jobs? I don't believe, for jobs, you got to be a paid per post mono, they're just gonna say, "you wanna sponsor? Use ad words." So, it's driving, I think, more involvement and awareness around SEM. But the exciting part is, I think, what they're trying to tackle, just like they tackled across the web. Matching candidates to jobs and jobs to candidates. And for so long we were relying, hoping, that the candidates wrote the right key words, and hoping that recruiters wrote the right job descriptions. And now, right, Google is using AI, is making sense of what candidates are typing and obviously what companies are putting postings to do a better job matching. And I believe no one can do it better than of course Google. Chad: So, here's the big question, how stupid is Indeed for not playing in this game? Because right now what we're seeing, or at least what we think we're seeing with analytics and talking to many of these analytic companies, is that really there's a redistribution of Indeeds' organic traffic going out to everybody else right now. Because Indeed's not playing the game. So, how dumb is Indeed for not playing the Google game? Joe: I wouldn't call it dumb, Chad. I mean right, contents king and so in theory, right, in all intensive purposes, Indeed still is the largest job board on the web. Now, we all know, even before Google for jobs announced, technically Google was the largest job board right, 87 percent- Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joe: Of all searches start there. Chad: Right. Joe: So, but in theory, right, Indeed is the largest. So, if I was Indeed, I don't know if I would just overnight all of a sudden say, "Hey, here's all my content." I think they're trying to figure it out. And obviously you see what Indeed's done, I think it was a smart move, right. The acquisition of Glassdoor- Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joe: By Recruit, not Indeed, right. We all keep saying Indeed, but it was really Recruit. Chad: Right. Joe: Well it's driving, it's gonna eventually drive more traffic, but in theory, they're getting into the branding [space 00:25:54]. And so it's not just becoming a job board and being the largest job board. I think they're obviously trying to become that largest recruitment platform. As job listing, databases, and it's branding. So, I believe there's some smart people there. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joe: We all know that. They're evolving and moving with the times, and I think, until they figure it out, just quickly saying, "Here's all our content," I think obviously would've been a mistake on Indeed. So I agree with their move. Chad: But it's not their content, though. Most of that is not their content. And Google is going to be getting that content anyway, so the piece that Indeed's going to have that's only their stuff, whatever that might be, is of small percentage of what Google's already gonna have in the first place. Joe: True. But, in terms of the ecosystem, right, would you just.. as long as, let's put it this way. Is Indeed's traffic the same as it was last year? No. Right. Their traffic obviously is decreasing. But that's across all job boards, and you can say that for any job board, because there's not as many job seekers there. So as long as they're still producing the quality traffic, and I think that's growing their reach. I mean, just sending their jobs to Google for jobs, in reality, I mean look at when we look at Google for jobs now, they're moving job boards out of it anyway. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joe: Right, they went direct to companies. Joel: So Joe, we've talked a lot about the future of the vendor space, and what kind of products and services will be in the future, and what they'll look like. I'm curious about when a little Shaker graduates from Wisconsin in 15 years, and she takes over the family business in 20 years, what kind of business is she gonna be taking over? What's it look like? Joe: Sure. In 15 years, I hope it's a little bit longer than that, but I enjoy and I appreciate, Joel, the Wisconsin mention and not the Ohio State. Joel: I don't know exactly how old your daughter is, but you get the- Joe: I'm more around for seeing the Wisconsin, not the Ohio, so that is correct. Chad: Go Bucks. Joe: I am optimistic, obviously, in terms of where the agency is going. And I believe this isn't just for Shaker, it's for all my agency friends out there. It's tough out there, right. This isn't just, as we said earlier, the right media strategy. You need an organization. I think clients out there is just getting harder and harder to find people, and we know that that's not gonna stop anytime soon. Having that right message and applying branding, and having the right strategy, and the right experience is a complicated formula. And there's a lot of parts to it. So, having that trusted advisor and that trusted partner along side of them to help navigate through that, I believe, is what's gonna be essential. And so I think that's why its very optimistic for all agencies out there. It's not just a simple as putting a job on one of the job boards anymore. And so, it also is, it's complicated. Joe: And so I have to- my goal and my job right obviously, as we move into the future, just like my father and his siblings.. It was easy for me to walk through the forest when someone's already cut down the trees. And it's my job to continue to carve that path so hopefully when that fourth generation does decide to come and join the Shaker family, and join the Shaker company, that they can continue with my grandfathers mission in helping organizations recruit [or change 00:29:06] out. Joel: Well that's a very heartwarming answer, but I'll ask it more specifically. So, bots, automation, AI, you know, the day of talking to a voice assistant where you say, "Find me a PHP developer in Seattle." And having the machines do it. Does nothing keep you up at night in terms of thinking that technology may take away our feasibility with employers in the future? Or do you rest pretty soundly? Joe: I think technology is gonna make it efficient, Joel. Right. And we're already seeing that with the Google search API and obviously with the likes of right sourcing solutions out there, and chat bots, right, that we've talked about today. But this is recruiting and choosing the job. It's a life changing decision. And so ultimately there still has to be, I believe, that personal connection, that personal touch. And so no, I'm not in the school that I believe technology and bots and AI is gonna completely replace recruiters and replace agencies, for that matter. It's gonna make us more efficient, it's gonna make us more accountable, it's gonna make us smarter. It's gonna make it easier for us to find that needle in a haystack, that passive impulsive candidate. But I do not believe it's gonna completely replace us. Just because of the decision to quit one company and move to another. Individuals are gonna want to talk to, feel, that organization before making that decision I believe. Joel: Well what does keep Joe Shaker awake at night? Joe: My four year old, my two year old, and my soon to be newborn. Chad: Oh my god. Do you know how that thing works? I mean seriously man. Joel: Good one Chad. Joe thanks for your time man. I know we've been bugging you for a while to get on the show and we finally became big enough that you could spend time with us. Chad: We appreciate it. Joel: We appreciate it man. Joe: Hey I've enjoyed listening to you all and obviously you have a great partnership and friendship, and so I wish you all the best. And I have to go. Thank you for your time, but I also do applaud that I hope you vote for, obviously, Shaker, for myself, and of course Chad and Joel. Joe: So, cast your votes out there everybody. Chad: Go to chadcheese.com and hit the vote button and you're gonna see some Shaker stuff in there. So give Joe some love. Joel: Yeah, and by the way, if you wanna know more about Joe and his agency, where should they go? Joe: Go to www.Shaker.com. Joel: Fair enough. Thanks Joe. Chad: Sweetness. Joel: Thanks guys. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Chad: Go Bucks. Chad: Okay, okay, okay. Before we go, remember when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing? Joel: Yeah you know all about reflexes. And then I brilliantly tied it to text messages. 97 percent open rate, then I elegantly, elegantly, tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh Chad, I can be elegant. Can't I? Chad: Whatever man. I know it's redundant. You already heard about text to hire, but you're still not using Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: What? Chad: I know man. Joel: Come on man. Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again, this was all by Elegant Design, it's all about text to hire, and its all about Nexxt. Joel: And Elegant Design. So go to chad cheese dot com, click on the Nexxt logo, and get 25, yeah I said 25, percent off your first text to hire campaign. Chad: Woo. Joel: Engage better, use text to hire from Nexxt. Two x's. Chad: Boo-yah. Thanks to our partners at TA tech. The association for talent acquisition solutions. Remember to visit TA tech dot org. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, google play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit Chad cheese dot com. Oh yeah. You're welcome. #Shaker #Agenciy #Google #AI #Chatbots #Nexxt #TATech

It's all about technology, partnerships, shortages and MONEY in this week's episode of Chad and Cheese Podcast! What to expect? - Text Recruiting WAR!!! (okay maybe not war) - Jobvite meets Canvas maybe shades of iCims and TextRecruit? - TextRecruit launches TextTalent - Google handles IT labor - American Airlines create a cadet academy and acquisitions by Ultimate Software and Slack, and, of course, what episode would be complete without CareerBuilder's continuous fall into the abyss. Enjoy, and visit our sponsors America's Job Exchange, Sovren and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Hiddie-ho, boys and girls. Welcome to another episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: Is it football season yet? Joel: 52 days, Chad. Joel: On this week's show, the text recruiter wars are warming up. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: There's a whole new batch of acquisitions and Chad wants to talk about shortage. I can only wonder what that's all about. It's another show full of NSFW goodness, but first a word from JobAdX. Chad: You're going to find out. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We're the Uber of ..." or, "It's the PayPal of ..." Maybe they're the Facebook of. In many, many cases, these comparisons fall short of being close to reality or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. In the case of JobAdX, our example is so accurate, so spot on that it's synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google Ad Sense for jobs. That means we're an efficient, consistent and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies, RPOs, and staffing firms real time dynamic bidding and delivery for client postings through the industry's first truly responsive tool. All this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click, or application, we offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regret. JobAdX: For direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficiency and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishers and job boards, higher rev shed than other partners through our smarter programmatic platform. In many cases, 30%-40% greater and more for our scalable model. JobAdX: To partner with us, you can visit or search JobAdX.com or email us at joinus@jobadx.com to get estimates or begin working together. JobAdX: JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. JobAdX: Oh, and you've been wondering why the British accent? JobAdX is just launched in the UK too. Joel: Is baseball season not doing it for you, Chad? Chad: It never does. It's boring as shit. My god. Joel: The problem is we don't get any games on any regular basis in Indianapolis. Like when I lived in Cleveland, all the games were on. You were into it. You could go to games. It was like, "Oh, the Yankees are in town. The Sox are in town." But there's none of that here. I totally understand why no one cares about baseball in this town. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. So football season, come on, baby. It's about time. I need to watch some Buckeyes. Joel: The Talking Heads are predicting Browns to be most improved team, which is pretty much going to be the death mail and guarantees their second 0-6 season. Chad: Dude, how are they going to get any worse? I mean, seriously. I don't know that they can go any deeper into the well. Joel: You know we're talking about Cleveland, right? Chad: God. It's ridiculous. Joel: So JobAdX, our first shout out, for me anyway. I'm headed down to Job Gate this coming week in Nashville. If you're there, say hi. But I know for sure JobAdX will be there. So I think they're actually presenting on the startup stage or something. So be sure to say hi to them and then write them a check while you're down there if you're attending. Chad: Big fat check. I won't be in Nashville. I'm going to be up in Indianapolis watching Foo Fighters. So I'll be getting my music on. Chad: First shout out goes to Nancy from Philly who broke radio silence. Joel: Yes, Nancy's back. Chad: Stuck here head out on Twitter to say hi. Also to Steven Rothburg who right now is probably trolling Allyo on Twitter. He heard the firing squad that we had with Alio and he had a ton of questions. So he's probably out there trolling right now. Joel: I heard Steve was on a corner somewhere arguing about the validity of Paired and Snag's new job seeker on demand platform for restaurants. We'll see about that. Joel: I'm going to shout out to Vote Chad and Cheese. If you haven't gone and voted for your favorite vendors, podcasters, bloggers, etc., go to ChadCheese.com, click on the link, and give your boys some love, give us a vote. Chad: Love the love. I'm going to give a big shout out to Talroo. I don't think that you've actually gotten the gear yet, have you? Joel: I have. I have. Chad: Oh, you did. Okay. Joel: Yeah. News to you. As usual, the t-shirts too small for me. I need to lose some l's I guess. But the glass I can use and in addition to the Talroo logo, I got a big cheese and the back. I'm sure yours said Chad, right? Chad: Yup. Yup. It looks like the laser etching on the glass or whatever kind of etching. But on one side as the Talroo logo, other side has Chad. This is going to be perfect to drink beer. So thanks to Sam and the team over there Talroo for some pretty cool swag. Joel: Rumor has it that Thad himself, the CEO, does the insignia on every glass that customers get. So that's above and beyond for any CEO. Way to go, Thad. Joel: I'm going to give a shout out to Joe Shaker Junior who we just finished up an interview with today on the agency business. Great interview. We've been trying to get Joe on for a long time. He finally acquiesced and we got him on. So, Joe, thanks for the time, buddy. We'll be publishing that soon, and we enjoyed it. Chad: Yep. Should be next Wednesday and it will be a next exclusive, huh? Saw what I did there. Chad: Shout out to Broadbean. So on last week's pod, we talked about Broadbean moving to the ghetto. Remember? Joel: Rumors. Chad: Yeah, rumors that Broadbean was moving to the ghetto. Well, luckily, we actually received confirmation. Broadbean is moving out of their current lush office in Newport Beach. Yeah. So their new digs might not be as great of a location but it has a gym, deli, putting green. I mean, I took a look at this place online. I mean, come on, guys. Broadbean, come on. Is this really the ghetto? Joel: Maybe it's just ghetto by Newport Beach standards, but by everyone else, it's like moving on up George Jefferson style. Chad: Oh, man. It's got your dry cleaners there, all that stuff. It definitely does not look like the ghetto, guys. A bunch of millennials work in there. Joel: And speaking of George Jefferson, I'm going to give shout out to George Laroque. We found out that is not his porn name that we thought it might be. George Laroque, another exclusive for uncommon. We appreciate that. We talk about venture capital, the flow ... What'd you call it? The gusher of money that's going into the industry, and we sort of sorted that out and talked in length about what's going on with the money question in the HR tech industry. Chad: Yeah, cash isn't flowing into our industry. It's freaking gushing. Joel: If Facebook is correct, George has a birthday this coming week. So if that's true, George, Happy Birthday from the Chad and Cheese Podcast Chad: Happy 80th Birthday, George. That's awesome. Great to here it, man. Joel: We'll see you on next month's show. Chad: Two more for me. Thanks to disability solutions for sponsoring the transcription, obviously, for the hard of hearing and the deaf. They still need to have a little Chad and Cheese in their lives. So there's the transcription. Chad: And last but not least, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast because if you subscribe, you can catch late breaking news with our new podcast called The Shred. You can go to iTunes, Google Play, CastBox, wherever you get your podcast or you'd like to get your podcast. You can subscribe and you can get late breaking news. Joel: The Shred about three or four episodes into it. The response has been warm and positive. These are two to five minute little bites of news that's going on with a little bit of opinion. But we usually do most of the opinion on this show. The only way you can get those is if you subscribe. So if you're not subscribed to the show, go to iTunes, Google Play, wherever you listen, and subscribe. Joel: My last shout out ... Chad: Get it. Joel: Might be more of an RIP, but rumor has it that the Career Builder Empower Conference, I guess, not even sure what this is. It's apparently a big deal. I'm sure clients come in and sort of a user meeting thing. Rumor has it it has been postponed this year. I don't know if that means canceled for good or what, but the dumpster fire continues to warm us nicely into the summer months. I'm expecting it to keep us toasty in fall and winter and the rest of next year. So Career Builder, keep dropping bombs so we can keep talking about it. Chad: Cost cutting at it's best. Joel: You ready to get to the show? Chad: Let's do this. Joel: All right. You want to talk about shortage, and I'll let you talk about your shortage issues. Chad: Yeah. The shortage issue, I'm not having shortage issues. The country is having shortage issues. Mainly, first of all, we're going to talk about IT in Google. So Google has announced that they're collaborating with a bunch of different colleges, but this article talked about North Texas Community College to bring its professional certificate course to students in an attempt to develop more qualified IT labor pools. Chad: So Google, I mean, they actually started this in the Silicon Valley where they were pulling people into the GooglePlex and doing these classes to be able to create this talent, which is one of the things that we've talked about. This is more organic and it makes a helluva lot more since. Now it's been announced about 25 community colleges across the country will be providing eight month courses that are these Google courses, which is freaking awesome and I don't know why this isn't just a staple in all of these IT companies recruiting and pipelining. It makes no damn sense why they're not doing it. Joel: There's a great scene in the movie The Untouchables, which I know you've seen and probably most of our listeners have, where Sean Connery takes Kevin Cosner to the police training facility and says, "If you want to make sure your apple is fresh, don't get it from the barrel, get it from the tree." There's a lot of insight to that in terms of business where these companies are saying, "Look, a lot of the colleges aren't churning out people with the skills that we need," and granted, the skillsets that people need are changing so quickly that it's hard for colleges to keep up. So hey, why don't we just grow our own apples, so the speak, create our own funnel of talent, create our own brand loyalty, and improve our employment brand before these people are even in the job market. I think it's a tremendous strategy. I suspect that you'll see this go form the tech sector and people like Google to healthcare industries, growing your own nurses, helping grow just about anything accountants, engineering. Joel: I also think it's interesting we didn't talk about this last week, but there's a new story about colleges that were basically investing in students, or allowing people to pay for college based on your salary when you graduate of getting a certain percentage, I think 5% of your annual salaries. So you're bypassing payment and the colleges are funding it. They're turning their students into investments, which I think is also an interesting and creative way to get more people into college. Joel: So I love this out of the box companies paying for it, colleges getting creative. I think I'm a big fan of it, and I hope it takes off in a mass scale. Chad: Oh yeah. Well, just here locally, so I was talking to local heating and air conditioning, what they've gone through when they've acquired and become these big, massive HVAC companies. And I talked to one of the techs, I asked him, I was like, "Dude, so how did you get to become a tech," and he said, "Hey, they put me through school. I'm on a three year contract." We've talked about this on the show. "I'm on a three year contract. I have to stay with this company for three years, but to be quite frank, the benefits and how they treat me, I don't know why I'd want to leave." So even heating and air, I mean, so smart because it's so hard to find skill trades, IT, I mean, it doesn't matte.r the labor market is short. Period. So if you're not growing your on, you're screwed. Joel: I think I'm interested in this. The local high school nearby, the workshop school is sponsored by O'Reilly. You go by the school, there's a big O'Reily Auto Parts and they're teaching teenagers how to fix cars and bringing them right into the workforce directly from high school in a trade that's going to make them money. So I think that's great as well. Chad: Yeah. So ... Joel: ... from high school and a trade that is going to make them money. I think that's great as well. Chad: Yeah. Next story is pilots. As I said, we have a shortage everywhere, and it looks like also on the side of airlines. We're traveling more as human beings, and we're not doing it in cars as much or trains or automobiles. Cost of flying is lower, and there's a huge need for pilots. Joel: Yeah. I mean, Millennials aren't buying homes. They're just traveling the world like Kung Fu Grasshopper. Yeah. The news that came out was that Delta expects to hire 8,000 pilots over the next decade, and they're actually giving conditional job offers to college students. So, they're going to the tree as well as opposed to waiting for them to come out. American Airlines has started offering loans to students as well. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And they've got a academy as well. Joel: Oh, do they? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Some experts from the article wonder if automation can ease some of the burden. They're kind of skeptical that that could happen, but I think at some point, automation is going to catch up and we'll have ... Of course, with regulations you have to have two pilots, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: That's kind of the rule. I don't see that changing anytime soon. I don't see people getting on planes that are automated anytime soon. Although, you could argue that almost every plane is automated. The people just kind of sit there, and if something goes wrong, they pull a Denzel Washington and flip the plane upside down and land it or whatever. But, yeah, pilot issues, man. If you have kids that like to fly, man, put them in pilot school. Chad: Yeah. In the '80s, pretty much two-thirds of all pilots were ex-military. Problem is the military is having issues right now, and they're predicting shortages with pilots. Not to mention we're moving toward drones on the military side of the house. If the airline industry was really just being fed by the military, the military is having shortages and we know that it's already hard to get people in the military as it is. If you're using that as your sole feeder system or one of your biggest feeder systems, you're going to have an issue. Chad: Yeah. American Airlines actually announced that they have a Cadet Academy, with the intent of really training and recruiting the next generation of pilots. As we're seeing it with Google, as we're seeing it with local HVAC and then now with pilots, this is a trend, and if you're not getting into this trend, then you're going to be the one that is going to have to fully automate because there are going to be no human beings to do your damn job. Joel: Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way. Right, sergeant? Chad: No shit. Joel: All right, man, let's take a quick break. Let's hear from our favorite, I don't know, compliance providers. That's your lane, but let's hear from AJE and we'll talk about texting, of all things. Chad: AJE! AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our thousand-plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women, and minorities and empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with their local community-based organizations. Want to learn more? Call us at 866-926-6284, or visit us at www.americasjobexchange.com. Joel: Text wars, nothing but text wars. Chad: There's so much business out there on the texting side of the house because nobody's fricking ... They're not adopting it. I just think this is totally just Blue Ocean for any of these companies and for Canvas and Jobvite in this case. This feels like shade of iCIMS and TextRecruit, but still, who else is doing this? Joel: Yeah. So for those that don't know or don't remember, iCIMS acquired TextRecruit earlier this year. Chad: Geez Joel: They had actually partnered in a similar fashion in 2015 with TextRecruit. It almost looks like Jobvite is taking a page out of the blueprint of what iCIMS did. So, announced this week, Jobvite is launching Jobvite Text powered by Canvas, which will be their own tech solution. Now I wrote a post on ERE, and you know that we disagree on whether or not iCIMS will close shop and just make TextRecruit an iCIMS product. I don't know if you've changed on that. Probably not. But I believe that Jobvite looked at TextRecruit tapping into its data via API, got a little nervous, and decided getting in bed with Canvas was probably a good idea, a good insurance policy. Joel: I wrote about my opinion on that. And on the article on ERE, we had Eric from TextRecruit leave a comment, which I thought that I would read- Chad: Go ahead. Joel: ... real quick. "Hey, Joel, it's great to see the category continue to grow. I'm a big fan of Dan, who's the CEO of Jobvite. I wanted to know, we still love all our Jobvite prospects and customers and are completely agnostic when it comes to HCM, ATS, or CRM that we work with. I believe that choices are important for all customers, and there is zero incentives for iCIMS to have us work only with their CRM ATS. We are seeing some of our large TextRecruit enterprise clients using diversified tech stacks that include Aperture, LinkedIn, iCIMS, and Workday. We will continue to build candidate and employee engagement solutions that cross over the entire stack. ATSs are not building their own email or phone systems. They won't be building their own text automation system." Yeah, because they bought you. Chad: Yeah, but think about it. What I led off with is the opportunity is huge out there. Right now, there is no reason to be able to lock down TextRecruit, iCIMS locking down TextRecruit, or even Jobvite. If they do end up buying Canvas, there's no reason to have any exclusivity out there because there's so much opportunity to gain more revenue. at least right now. Maybe not five years from now, but right now there is so much opportunity for revenue in this space, it would be dumb to actually lock them down from an exclusivity standpoint. Joel: I agree that there's no reason for Eric or iCIMS to want to stop the growth, whether it's revenue or growth of the product, amongst people that use those services. Chad: Correct. Joel: But I think you can probably agree why Dan Finnigan at Jobvite would be a little nervous that iCIMS owns that property and that maybe he wants to hedge his bets and get in bed with a competitor in case something does go wrong. Do you at least agree that most ATSs should be a little bit weary of TextRecruit having access to so much data of your ATS? Chad: Well, first off, if I go to iCIMS and I tell iCIMS that I want to use Canvas, they're not going to tell me No. Joel: Yeah, I agree. Chad: They're not going to tell me No. So, that just totally defeats the entire argument whatsoever. If I go to Dan Finnigan, Dan Finnigan's not going to tell me that I can't use TextRecruit. There could be some great advantages, there is no question, to be able to integrate with specific vendors, but there's no way in hell either one of those CEOs are going to cut off cash. Joel: Are you agreeing that Dan should be nervous or not? Chad: I think they should all be nervous. If they don't- Joel: I agree with that. Chad: ... if they don't have a text partner, which is one of the reasons why I think Jobvite was incredibly smart in getting into this. It made just so much sense. Joel: We agree on that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I agree that Eric wants this thing to grow as much as possible. I agree that Aman at Canvas wants it to grow as much as possible. I'm sure Euan at Emissary wants it to grow as much as possible. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: But if you're an ATS and iCIMS owns this property and it's integrated into your system, you should be a little bit Trojan horse worried. Even if nothing happens, it's in your favor to at least be cautious about it. And I also think that neither one of us would be shocked if we get a headline that says, "Jobvite acquires Canvas" six months from now. Right? Chad: Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised about that at all. As a matter of fact, I'd be looking to that for that to happen. But we've got to remember, we talk about getting data. Right? It's not like they're getting the fucking launch codes for God's sakes. It's not that big of a deal from a data standpoint. We want to be able to think that this is a Russian hacking-type of scheme. It's not that. It's not that big of a deal. Joel: We can investigate further as to what exactly data they're getting access to. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I guarantee it's not Social Security numbers, blood type, or anything. Joel: No. I agree it's not either. Chad: So, none of it matters. Joel: If it's traffic numbers, if it's page views, if it's user calls, which even that simple kind of data, or just even knowing what clients that ATS has. Yeah, I wouldn't put it ... I don't know. I just think that you should be cautious as an ATS owner if ATSs start buying up these tech solutions and they start super integrating with your stuff, whether it's from, "Oh, they could cut it off tomorrow or they could be getting intel on my stuff." I would be cautious about it. Chad: I think anybody who is at a tech startup right now, could be chatbot texting, whatever it is, messaging, period. We'll just call it that. You are in a wonderful position. No question. Joel: Yes. Yes. If you need an idea for a business to start, this might be a good one to like, because there are a lot more ATSs than there are text messaging solutions for recruitment? Chad: Yeah. Well, that being said, TextRecruit launched a new, I guess you could say kind of a feature to their platform called TextTalent- Joel: Yeah. Chad: ... which is pretty freaking cool. Joel: It's really cool. As I read it, basically it's sort of sourcing meets text recruiting. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. When you're creating a actual TextRecruit campaign against a requisition, you can search third-party resume databases. So, you can start pulling candidates in from third-party resume databases. Your reach continues to grow past your applicant tracking systems database. So, yeah, no. I think that is pretty fricking cool. Joel: Very cool. And they've also ... I think we mentioned this a little bit back, that TextRecruit launched drip campaigns, so they are more and more becoming a marketing platform than just a texting communication platform. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So, knowing Eric as we do, that doesn't surprise us and knowing iCIMS like we do, that doesn't surprise us. I think that's really, really cool, that TextRecruit is really pushing the envelope, because they are ahead of the competition right now and I think will continue to be in the near future. So, kudos for the solutions they're churning out. Chad: Here's the big message. No matter Canvas, TextRecruit, Emissary, whatever the other options are, if you're leading talent acquisition and your recruiters don't have a formalized texting platform to engage candidates, get one now because you know your recruiters are already texting candidates. But if it's not saved in the centralized database and you could be audited, not to mention you can't use machine learning or AI against data that you don't have, so there are so many reasons why you need to have text. Not to mention, I don't know if we, we didn't say this, but 90% of SMS are actually read within the first three seconds. Email sucks, guys. Emails for shit compared to text. If you're not doing text, you're out, dude. Joel: No, that we can agree on. I think the next argument will be text versus automation, chatbots, AI, et cetera. Chad: See, I see chatbots and I see messaging as messaging, so I see texting becoming now part of that. These are just different channels that the chatbots get to be able to connect with you. So, whether it's on text, whether it's on Facebook Messenger, I see all that as an integrated solution very, very shortly. Joel: I think ultimately, the text recruiting folks will start implementing AI and automation more than I do a chatbot integrating text messaging. Chad: Right. Joel: I think those will be a feature of text platforms as opposed to the other way around. Would you agree with that? Chad: Yeah. It's a hard one, but I would say yeah. I think that it's just more of the focus and where they're already going. So, yeah, I would definitely agree. I think if you started out with texting and you started to move toward messaging, that, to me, is more exciting than trying to move from messaging and then backing up into text. Joel: All right. You ready to take a quick break and then talk about acquisitions? Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: All right, a word from Sovren, gang. Sovren: Sovren AI Matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches. It tells you how and why it produced them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI Matching, visit sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Chad: We talk about AI machine learning, and you want some AI to actually power- Chad: ... that text platform, you might want to call Sovren. Joel: Dude, Sovren is a unknown beast in this industry like ... Yeah, everybody uses them. It's amazing. It's amazing. By the way, quick interjection before we talk about acquisition, so I was messaging back and forth with an Indeed employee. Chad: Okay. Joel: One of the ground troops, and frankly, you probably agree with this, talking to the ground troops is the best, because the front line and the people making the calls- Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Know so much more than the management and executives. Joel: So anyway, I love talking to sales people; so what this sales person told me was, that the three other solutions aside from Indeed, the three that he hears more than any other are ZipRecruiter- Chad: Yes. Joel: Facebook. Chad: Okay. Joel: Which I thought was interesting. Chad: Yes. Joel: And LinkedIn. CareerBuilder never, Monster never, Dice never, Craigslist never, because I asked; so just a little tidbit from the front lines of the job posting battle ground. The three ... Of course Indeed is going to say it's talked about, but Indeed and then those other three says are really hot. Joel: The biggest surprise to me was Facebook. I didn't expect Facebook to be on the minds of employers so much. Chad: Yeah. I would think SMB side of the house, maybe that's who this sales person deals with, I don't know. Joel: Yes. Joel: Yes, it was SMB, I'll put that out there. Yeah, and he was like LinkedIn getting more into SMBs, I told him like, “Yeah, you know, you should be hearing more LinkedIn, a little bit as you go forward,” and he promised to keep me abreast if he hears more and more LinkedIn; but LinkedIn is still number three in SMBs. Joel: So off to acquisitions. Joel: Acquisitions, man. Ultimate Software dropped 300 mil on PeopleDoc. Chad: PeopleDoc. Joel: From your favorite country, France. Chad: Yeah, well they did pretty well in that World Cup thingy. Joel: They did pretty well. They were good. They're lucky they didn't play the three lions, but that's a talk for another day. Chad: They didn't even show up for their freaking ... their last match. Joel: No, no, no. There's too much ... There's beer at the pub, man. You don't want to play a nothing match; so anyway, the news, 300 million. Acquired PeopleDoc for 300 in cash and stock. It expected to close next quarter this year. Both make HR solutions. Joel: Ultimate Software went public in '98, they've been around forever as we know. PeopleDoc, kind of they've raised somewhere around 30 million dollars up to this point; so yeah, it just seemed like similar solutions, to me just a little bit like Shaker buying the Arland Group, right? Joel: You got some talent, you got some customers, maybe you got some duplicitous technology that you can wrap in, or new technology, and so that's what that seemed like to me. Any takeaways for you? Chad: Yeah, I think, no question being able to increase footprints internationally, makes a heck of a lot of sense; but also it sounded like, from what I've read, you know, I've never used PeopleDoc; but it sounded like PeopleDoc was really more focused on the employee e-engagement side of the house, which makes a hell of a lot of sense because we just talked about labor shortages, right? Chad: The smartest thing for employers to do, for companies to do today, is to focus on retention; so being to have that outreach, have that smooth onboarding, to be able to continue to interact with your employees; so it sounded like this is more of an employee engagement, kind of UI and outreach-kind of scenario; which I thought was incredibly smart. Joel: This is also interesting to me because in talking to Georges Laroque, in our upcoming podcast, he mentioned France as being the number two country in terms of venture capital. Did I hear that right? Or was the coffee a little strong for me that morning? Chad: Yeah, coffee was a little strong. He said France was the fastest growing because they really focused on growing startups, so you know, this does make sense obviously. Joel: Yeah, Macron, they have a new leader who's really pushing some commercial interests and startup engagement there, so yeah, I think it's great. Most of the French startups we're not big fans of, but hey, you know? You got to take some swings to get some hits, so hopefully we'll be seeing some more out of France that impresses us; but we're surely impressed by at least the money that Slack has raised, 790 million dollars. Chad: That's a lot of cash. Joel: We're freaking out when someone raises 50 million, and these guys are like just dwarfing all that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But, they made an acquisition for Missions. What do you know about them? Chad: Slack is really a foundational-kind of a platform, right? And, if you want to do something different with Slack, you build on the foundation, and you do that with apps; so they're different, kind of like almost like a modular-kind of scenario. The interesting thing is 65% of Slack users, the actual companies, build their own apps; so that means the balance of those companies have to hope that there's something in the App Store that they can kind of plug in. Chad: Missions is more of a workflow-kind of an app, that can be indigenous to Slack overall; so if you do have a company who is onboarding, which is actually what TechCrunch said, and I thought it was interesting, after talking about PeopleDoc for 300 million. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Being able to have better employee engagement using Slack, which is a great way to engage employees, because they're on Slack all damn day, and using Missions to be able to do that, to be able to process a much better workflow; so I thought it was really cool. Joel: You know, one of the great things about having an App Store is you find out which apps are the most popular, and then you go buy them. Chad: Yeah. Joel: iCIMS buying TextRecruit probably had a little bit to do with iCIMS seeing the growth- Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Of TextRecruit users, we see this with Facebook apps, I think Apple ... Apple, one of their original apps was like sort of a tracking or statistics app that I think they acquired way back in the day, so it's a real benefit to have that, and this is just Slack saying, “You know, look, these are pieces that are incredibly popular. Why don't we roll these into our main offering and go native with it?” Joel: And, to me, this was a smart move. There was no ... The financials weren't disclosed, which usually means it wasn't enough to really talk about, so this Missions team was probably a pretty small company, Slack found some money in the cushions, gave it to them and got the app suite, so I'm in favor of this move, for sure. Chad: Oh, yeah, and there's nothing worse than getting into a platform, especially when you're new, and there's no easy-to-understand workflow. I mean, it just, it's, “Okay, what's my workflow? How do I do? Where do I go?,” and from this standpoint there's no question, from Slack's standpoint you can create your own workflows with Missions; and, again, it just makes a powerful platform that much more powerful. Joel: I agree. Do you want to talk about Canada or not? Chad: Oh, why not? Joel: Why not? All right, so there's a lawsuit by a former CareerBuilder employee that I wrote about for ERE that should be published soon if you want to check that out, but, basically, sales guy in Toronto whose boss was demeaning to him, made sort of derogatory remarks, allegedly. Joel: This is what the claim says, that he was sick. His boss said, “Oh, this seems to be a trend on Mondays,” kind-of thing. He had his commission structure changed, he had the ability to work at home sort of negated or lessened, according to the lawsuit. According to the lawsuit he went to HR, filed a complaint. Joel: HR out of Chicago, I believe said, “Yeah, we'll look into it and let you know,” they didn't get back to the plaintiff. He told his boss he had filed a complaint with HR, shortly thereafter was fired, and so he's basically suing CareerBuilder in Canada, or CareerBuilder for wrongful termination and harassment. Joel: Now, we talked about this a little bit before the show; if you're a salesperson in America, you're probably thinking, “Well, Jesus, I get shit all the time when I'm sick, or if I take lunch for five minutes longer. Like, why is that a big deal?,” or you know, “Hey, I get my commissions structure changed every six months, like why is that a big deal?,” or, “Hey, yeah, if they tell me I got to come in the office, I got to come in the office.” Joel: However, if you're in Canada, there's this little thing called “Poisoned work environment” where you can't do stuff like say derogatory things like, “Oh, it seems like you're always sick on Monday,” or, “Oh, that's a trend, huh?”, so you got to be really nice in Canada, apparently; and people, employees, will sue you if you're not, which is what we're looking at here. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I will also add that the limits on what you can get from these kind of lawsuits are really low relative to what Americans can get. Chad: Got you. Joel: The cap on this, I think, is 75,000 that you can get as a worker for this stuff. He's also asking for like back-pay, and some severance, and blah, blah, blah, but it totals about 150,000; which, if he's paying legal fees, he's probably going to get like 500 dollars from doing all this with lawyers; whereas the lawsuit by our buddy at Shiftgig, Lori McInerney, hopefully I said that right, is seven-figure area; so God bless America, sue everybody. Chad: Yeah, not so much. I can understand if you're being treated differently than anybody else, and I mean, the derogatory remarks, they just ... Doesn't make any sense for that, I mean if you're in management you have to be a step above that; if somebody is off a lot on Mondays, well then, in the review you bring that up. I mean you actually show facts. “Here are the facts, this is what we've seen”. Chad: Just being stupid and kind of throwing things out there, I mean, it happens, but it's one of those things where we have to be more disciplined and it shouldn't. Commission structures change all the damn time. Now, was his commission structure changed? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Verus everybody else's? I mean, that's a big question, and then also, the work-from-home segment, right? If you're being punished from working from home because you're not hitting goal, not because you're missing Mondays, because you're not hitting goal, that's not an issue. You need to hit goal. Joel: Yeah, I don't think this is a frivolous lawsuit. I really feel like the plaintiff probably feels like, “I got crappy ... I got shit on at work”. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I just think, for Americans, particularly people in sales, to hear this would be like, “Gee, that's just Tuesday”, I think that, that's maybe a little different, but I also would say that there seems to be a trend at CareerBuilder of like an old boy ... like untraditional culture that's different than other places, and as the world changes, it looks like CareerBuilder's having a hard time changing with that reality. Chad: Well, I don't know. I mean, their President of Sales and two VPs of Sales are not there anymore. That to me signals some change. Joel: Well, let's see if they bring on new ones, because we don't know if that's just a straight up, “chop this baby up and monetize, and sell”, or whatever, or if it's a literal like Monster, “Let's get rid of everybody of old, and let's bring in new people”. Joel: I would agree with you if they start bringing in new SVPs and new Vice Presidents in Sales, but if they don't, then to me this is just a chop job to bring out as much profit as possible, and probably sell this sucker at some point. Chad: Yeah, which we've seen they're doing pretty often. Joel: Anyway, love the Canadian reference because my wife's Canadian, she'll appreciate that, other than that, I'm going to probably go to the porch and have a beer, in my new Talroo pint glass. Chad: Yeah, I was going to say, just don't wear that Talroo half-shirt that you have now. Joel: That's for the next bet I lose against you. Chad: Oh, that'll be soon. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my step dad, “The Chad” and his goofy friend “Cheese”. You've been listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. Tristen: They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors, because I need new track spikes, you know, the expensive shiny, gold pair that are extra because, well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Jobvite #Canvas #iCims #TextRecruit #Google #AmericanAirlines #UltimateSoftware #Slack #Careerbuilder

CA$H is GUSHING into the Recruitment Industry, which is why George Laroque from HRWins.com joins Chad and Cheese to break down the first two quarters of VC spending in 2018 (spoiler - '18 is already bigger than '17) Are AI, Block Chain, and Machine Learning taking all the VC cash? It's a breakdown of who, what, why and how of all the investment money flowing into recruitment technology startups. George shares insights and data specific to Recruitment Industry VC CA$H! Many props to Uncommon for this EXCLUSIVE look into the ca$h that's being pushed into the Recruitment Industry. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Chad: This, The Chad & Cheese Podcast, brought to you in partnership with TAtech. TAtech, the association for Talent Acquisition Solutions. Visit tatech.org Joel: Chad, why do recruiters spend money on unqualified, or uninterested candidates? Chad: Dude, I don't know, because they're recruiters. What in the hell are you talking about, in the first place? Joel: All right, stay with me here. PPC campaigns mean you're paying for click, and the person who clicks could be qualified, or unqualified. You don't know, and you're still going to pay for that click. Chad: Hell, man a subscription model is even worse, because you're paying for all of the candidates, not necessarily qualified ones. Joel: Bingo. So the answer is current pricing models suck, duh. So, what if you handed over cash for only interested, and qualified candidates. I'm talking about candidates that are actually qualified. The ones that meet all of your job requirements from years in industry to specific skills. Chad: I gotcha, now you're talking about Uncommon. Joel: Bingo, Uncommon is where the model does not suck. Right now, Uncommon only charges $14.95, that's 14 dollars and 95 cents per interested, and qualified candidate. If you do volume hiring you'll get bigger discounts. Chad: Man, that's cheap. So, yeah Uncommon is simple, you set your monthly budget, and Uncommon only charges you when you get an interested applicant that meets, or exceeds your job requirements. Joel: And to sweeten the deal just create your free account, and get your first five qualified, and interested candidates for free. Just go to uncommon.co to create your free account. That's U-N-C-O-M-M-O-N dot C-O and get those fresh five free peeps with mega skills. Chad: Hey, this is Chad from the Chad, and Cheese Podcast, today on the Uncommon exclusive we have George Larocque. Joel: George Larocque, the rock. Chad: La rock, not the porn star by the way. This is George Larocque, George you've been in the recruiting industry for a good amount of time. Give us a little bit of your background, and tell the listeners why they need to know a little bit about George. George: It has been a good amount of time. It's been like almost thirty years now. So, I spent ten years, I came out of the staffing world, moved on to the employers side, came out of recruiting into HR, and really ran it all. Spent 10 years on the vendor side, launched a couple of bigger brands in talent acquisition, and worked in talent management, there as well. Now it's been about nine years as this analyst, and advisor. George: So, what I do is publish reports on HRwins.com. Outside of the reports, what I do is, I help employers, and vendors understand each other. One of the things that I do as a part of that is track innovation, and all of the start ups, what's coming up, and share a quarterly report on the VC that's been invested in those start ups globally for HR tech in all of the segments. Joel: So, George what piqued my interest there was saying 30 years in the industry. So, let's start with an historical perspective from you in regards to, I guess the VC space. What are your take-aways from the last, 10, 20 years of money flowing in, and out of the industry? George: The last 10 it's been just, you know, We've had maybe a couple of lulls here, you know 2008, 2009, everybody tapped their brakes, right, with the financial collapse, but generally speaking it is just been a, it's been salad days as far as the money flowing into the business, right, into the industry. Deals that in 2000, 18 years ago, you know somebody got $5 million. We were like, "Wow, that's a lot of money." George: Last week, Greenhouse got $50 million and I saw Daniel, the CEO there, and I said, "That's a lot of money." And he said, "It is." It's, we had earlier in the quarter, we had a $100 million round to Checker, right. So, it's just vastly different, and that's not just an HR tech things. It's everywhere, the money is, it's incredible how much money is out there for start-ups. Chad: So why do you think this much money is actually going out to, I mean, $50 million is a good clip of cash. So, what does a Greenhouse, or what does a Checker, what do they actually need with this kind of cash? George: Well, $50 million at Greenhouse, and I knew them a little better that I do Checker, but it's a later stage round. They've raised over $100 million. So, when you look at what a company's doing with a big later stage round like this, these aren't, this isn't like back when Zenefits came out of nowhere, and raised 500 right? That was just inexplicable, and where are they now, right? Chad: Yeah. George: So, this is more of a growth funding, they've received validation. Now, I'm not saying it's a foregone conclusion that they will be the leader they are trying to become, or seem to be emerging as, in either one of their cases. But they've had to demonstrate a certain amount of revenue traction, a certain amount of you know product market fit, that they've got to have the right team. So, at the same time investors like to double down, it's a safer bet when others have done before and these, these firms have demonstrated more results. So, they're rather put more money into a more established vendor. That's why it's so hard to raise the early money, because it's you know you don't have the product you don't have the market acceptance yet. Joel: George, you see a lot of companies now sort of forego the public space. You know, going IPO, in the early days, you know Monster Dice, going public was sort the way that people would cash out. Today, you're seeing someone like Glassdoor that gets two hundred some million in investment money go for the sale to recruiting, you know recruiting in the space, recruiting in this instance as opposed to going IPO. Is it your sense that these companies are getting a lot of money? Is the goal essentially to sell or to go IPO in your opinion? George: You know back in the day, when I was on a vendor site. I was employee number 10 at BrassRing, we raised a crap ton of money, you know largely from the newspaper industry. You know, and it came from their corporate funds. If you asked me when I was running sales for BrassRing, I would have said, "Well, what we have to do in order to exit, whether we're acquired, or whether we go public is exactly the same. We've got to build value, yes." It's the sound bite that you're told to give when your asked that question. Now, I think there's more of an assumption that, obviously the VCs looking to get their money back times five. George: I don't know that there's a preference. I think they want, I think there's less of a glow around going public to your point. I think there's, if they get acquired, and they get a sick multiple, that's a hell of a lot easier, you know, staying private not going through that process. But you know I think that really has to do with the culture of the organization, and sort of the founders, right. How, you know, what's their vision for what they want to build, and what success means to them, and then depending on how much they're leveraged, what that means to the VC they took their money from. You know, it means more what the VC thinks if you're highly leveraged to them. Joel: Yeah, so it sounds like strategy is changing when it comes to start ups. That being said, obviously funding has changed as well from comparing last year to this year. Can you give us can of like an idea of how much money's been spent in 2018 versus 17, and what that looks like possibly moving out through the end of Q4. George: We're basically at the mid point of 2018, and we've already surpassed 2017. So, with 1.33 billion in 2018, that's a couple hundred K, I'm sorry a couple hundred million more than we did, we did about 1.09 billion in 2017. So, that's a break neck pace. It's hard to predict where we'll be end of the year, because you know I look at, you know Q1 this year was huge. It was almost 800 million, just in Q1. So we have about 533 million in Q2, so you know that's dip from Q1, yet Q2 was bigger than any quarter in 2017. So, does that mean, will we spike up again? It's really hard to predict, because you know I don't know that, you know, the same indicators you'd look at for just general corporate growth, or how the job markets doing, or how the stock markets doing, necessarily relate to the investments that are in the works today. It's hard to predict for me, anyhow. Chad: So most, I mean, most VC and correct me if I'm wrong, they don't even understand our industry in the first place. So are they just anxious to just throw cash at anything that sounds good? I mean even just a concept versus what's actually there. It was funny the other day we were talking about vaporware, and how that was big term back in the late 90s. It almost seems like what's going on today as well. George: You have a couple of questions there. You know, to Joel's point earlier, I think the VC sees these exits, they see the Glassdoor acquisition, they see Indeed being acquired, they see Linkedin being acquired, they see all of these things. And you know there's some big, these are some mammoth acquisitions, big exits for these guys. So, it draws a lot of attention to the space. You know, on the other side of things they saw success factors years ago, and you know which was another giant acquisition by SAP. You could argue whether that was way over valued or not. So, that gets a lot of attention. Then you start to look at the issues, like a macro level that everybody is aware of, right. In the news you hear about the pay gap, you hear about the skills gaps, you hear about, you know, the job market having issues, you know talent hard to find. So the VC is aware of this and I think it attracts them to the space. George: I don't know if it's vaporware that they're investing in, because it's really hard to raise, you know, I talk to so many start ups that have, they have a product they have a good idea, but they don't have the traction they need to track that early round of venture capital. It used to be a million dollar run rate, you know, less than ten years ago, a million dollar run rate in recurring revenue would drive some investment, but that's clearly not cutting it any longer. They're looking for more traction, more success, but there's still like that old. There's still that old boys network. You look at the big rounds that go really early, and you can see the ties, whether it's through their educational background, maybe they worked at an investment bank, worked in the same corporate corporation at some point. I still see a lot of that for the really big ones that happen early on. Chad: You're saying D, actually your C rounds, at least within your report, is where a lot of the money's going. So what you're saying is, there has to be that proven model that's in place. Even though 120 million went to A, most of the money over all went to more later round funds. George: Yeah, that's yeah. That's a good point. Now, it's impossible to track all of the seed rounds, and this is something that I think vendors really need to get their head around when they want to raise some money, and get to that A round. The reasons it's so hard to track, I get a lot of calls form vendors and they're looking for introductions to venture capitalist that make super early, you know, investments. That money tends to come more from angels and independent investors, and there's a full time job there, which is networking and pitching your company to these networks of independent investors. George: If you don't them already you've got to get to know them and you got to get them really believing in what you're doing. If you were to get a few hundred thousand dollars to leave their hands for you to go build your business and get to that A round. It's a whole different game than the folks that are pitching for an A round on the backs of you know five, ten, million dollars of run rate. Joel: George, I want to ask you about red flags. Historically, anyone who watched the Jobster train wreck [crosstalk 00:14:22] taking as much money as they did, this was bound to end badly. Erik, the CEO, and founder of TextRecruit spoke at TAtech last year, and said something along the lines of, you know, how much does a chat bot like Maya, really need? I think Maya's raised somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 or 40 million. I'm sure that you probably know better than I. Whereas, TextRecruit took a fairly modest three million, as they had already found some success. So, I'm curious, anyone out there that you can look at both historically, and just sort of the checks, that have been written that you can say fairly well that this is probably not going to end well? George: Well, I think, we just watched, I mentioned Zenefits on the HDM, and benefits side. That was a public implosion for a lot of reasons. They raised a ton of money, over 500 million in one round, and you could just see that that was, that the original founders were arrogant, they were coming into the market smarter, perceiving themselves to be smarter, than every multi-billion dollar pay roll company that came before them. So, it was, you could see that one. That's a historical record. George: Right now, I don't know that I would out any specific vendors, but I would say that I do see a lot of features that are billed as products right now. Chat bots are a really good example. And you know that funding question, how much is too much? You see a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with that, because you don't want to over leverage yourself. But at the same time, you know, it's- One of the things you can do with money is create a lot of noise, and get a lot of attention, right. You can invest in marketing, you can invest in branding, you can invest in sale people. That's where it isn't necessarily the best product that starts winning in the market with more feet on the street, and more attention. George: So, you know the draw to that is, it's pretty intense. You could almost look at another vendor that's raised a ton of money in, I wouldn't call them a feature, but if you look at SmashFly in the recruitment marketing space. They've raised a lot of money, and you know there's been, we haven't really heard anything officially, but we know that there's been some shake ups from a management perspective. George: You know I look at them and I know they've got a lot of Fortune 500 customers. They're the perceived market leader in recruitment marketing, but at some point, depending on how much money you've raised, it can never be enough, because you can't be on as healthy a clip from a revenue perspective to satisfy those investors. So, it's, again I'm not predicting their demise, but I think that's one that I'm watching to see. I wonder how they're going to fare in the next few years. Chad: Yeah it's almost like you're drowning, right? I mean there's just so much that you can take, and then you've just taken too much. Then to be able to get that five x, or who knows what they're asking for, to be able to actually pay that back against that quote, unquote unicorn type of status isn't easy. Obviously, if it was then everybody would be doing it. George: No, you're right. I think the whole unicorn thing is, it's just a silly conversation you know, unicorn by definition is supposed to be rare, right. Chad: Right. George: It's mythical, so the idea now that the conversation, and the broad B2B tech market is one where, you know sort of getting to unicorn status is the goal. It's just not feasible. It just isn't realistic that they're going to get to- especially in our space. I just don't see that happening. Chad: Yeah, let's switch gears real quick, and let's talk geography. So, where's the money being spent? The start ups where are they at, and I guess you could probably see on both sides, where's the money coming from, and then where's it being spent. What companies, where are they actually located, geography wise? George: Well, not surprising to anybody would be that the US leads, from a VC perspective, both in where the moneys coming from, as well as where the start ups are located. Silicone Valley, is still the, they like to call themselves the cradle of innovation. But you're seeing some other areas like New York, Boston's emerging a little bit, again. Then there's start ups that are located across the country. The world is getting flatter. So, you can attract talent that isn't quite as expensive. They get better quality of life, and your cost of living, and cost of doing business is a little more feasible in the middle of the country. Atlanta's got some interesting things happening there as well but it's still a US and Silicone Valley. George: Internationally speaking, you know. So, in Q2 the US had 21 deals. Number 2 was France with seven. So there's a big gap between number one and number two, and the UK was number three with six. Then everybody else was like one or two deals here or there. France is something interesting, they may never catch up to the US, just given the way we roll here, but and then the UK may never cath up for all I know. But when I look at France, they sort of game out in the last couple quarters. I've said it, I've written about it. I don't know whether, it's something political, or you know what's happening ultraly there. They seem to be developing start ups. They seem to be investing in their people, and even from a governmental perspective, creating ways for folks to start companies and get some early traction. George: I've been contacted by a branch of the French government about a start up coming to the US, and they were helping them find analyst, and advisors. So that's kind of interesting. I'm not aware that we do that for any start ups. Chad: Seeing that in Ireland too. George: Oh really? Okay that's cool. You guys were over there. I listened to your, at least one of your shows from like the Guinness Brewery maybe. Chad: Throughout Dublin, wherever there's beer. Joel: George, I'm curious, you see, obviously we talk a lot about Google, Linkedin, Microsoft, et cetera. Do you see that having a significant impact on the types of companies being funded, and how much they're being funded? George: I think those are good examples again, of activity in the market that draws a lot of attention. But in the talent acquisition space, consistently quarter to quarter, job boards lead as the subcategory, right under, I sort of group it by talent acquisition, and then within that I look at job board slash market places, because I've only seen a couple market places that just look like every job board I've seen. So, by far the job boards lead. I think, you know, while Google has released with in the G Suite, you know, a process management, you know air quotes, ATS like capabilities. George: You know a lot of what they've done, and you know deeper, you have deeper insights into their product stuff, but a lot of what they've done is around the job advertising. Where we're anticipating that build go, is further in that, and getting companies exposure, and dry talent. So, that's a job board like marketplace, and I think that probably has something to do with a sustained investment in job boards, and market places. Chad: Yeah, I mean the job boards already have revenue streams coming in. They're looking to pivot to, I would assume, to evolve past just being a job board. So I guess, and just from my opinion, it makes sense for a company to be able to provide funding to a company who already has solid revenue streams first, and foremost, and they're looking to evolve into different technology. Doesn't that, I mean from my stand point, when I'm seeing this from the outside, that's kind of the feeling I get. Is that what you're feeling as well? George: Yeah, that's one big part of it. The other, I think, is more so than any other solution in our space. It is a two sided, job board by definition is a marketplace. I've got a consumer, and I have the corporation. Right, I've got the consumer, and the business side of it, and I'm bringing them together. George: So, if I'm investing in an applicant tracking solution, it's a one sided sale. I'm selling into the business. So, you've got a really, that sort of high volume transactional environment that a job board can be, is really attractive to an investor, because I can sell, I can sell via eCommerce, I can sell single ads, and I can sell big subscriptions, and other services that I can tack on to your point, and grow this business, because I've got a captive B2B market as well. Joel: George, I'm curious about, I asked about red flags earlier, I'm interested in green flags. Of the start ups that are getting money maybe in multiple rounds. What are some of the ones that you look at and go, "Oh yeah these guys are a home run"? George: I'm not giving anyone, any investment advice, let me say that up front. That's the million dollar question, no pun intended, right. It's I think, you know, let's look at the big sexy trends. So, all of the bots, and the AI, and the machine learning. There are a couple, one that jumps out, I think you might have spoken to them, is AllyO, who goes really deep into the process. Now, how much of that, you know, I haven't gone deep with them. So, I don't know how much of that is like pseudo AI, I don't know how much, I'm not questioning their credibility at all, but that model of doing something innovative, you know, and really changing the game for the recruiters, and talent leaders is something that I would pay close attention to. George: I also see their customer list, and that looks pretty impressive as well. I think, we are going to see some, you know, I don't know whether it's going to be a like a Beamery, or I picked on SmashFly a little bit, it cold be a SmashFly, it could be a Telemetry. I think the folks who can bring the employers something that helps them with that, sort of getting the brand to, out to the audience is going to be interesting as well. I think your, there seems to be room to me for, either a big brand job board to reinvent themselves, or somebody else to come in form the outside, and maybe that's Google. Maybe that's what Google is, the void Google will ultimately fit is the finder of talent, because the Monsters and the Career Builders just didn't get where we thought they were going. Joel: George, man thanks for all your time. We really, really appreciate it. We know you're a busy guy. Thanks and any last words parting wisdom. George: No, I'm just really excited to do this with you guys on a monthly basis. Thanks for having me this is- I am looking forward to it. Chad: That was a good hard sale I love that, that was good stuff. Joel: We are a huge deal apparently, if George wants to be on our monthly show. Chad: No shit. Joel: Thanks George. Chad: Thanks George. George: Thanks guys. Joel: Remember to visit Uncommon.co Chad: Where the candidate model doesn't suck. Right now Uncommon on charges $14.95 per interested, and qualified candidate. Plus if you're into volume, and I know you're into volume, there are bigger discounts. Joel: To sweeten the deal Uncommon allows you to create a few account, and get your first five qualified, and interested candidates absolutely free. Chad: Uncommon.co... Do it. Chad: Thanks to our partners at TAtech the association for talent acquisition solutions, remember to visit TAtech.org. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen, thanks for listening to my stepdad, Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping' that's happening' up in here. Tristen: They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes, you know, the expensive shiny gold pair, that are extra, because well I'm extra. For more visit chadcheese.com #VC #Money #HRwins #Smashfly #Beamery #Jobster #Uncommon #Greenhouse #Checker #Zenefits #TATech

The boys are back after a July 4th break and there's a lot to cover. - Listener comments spark discussion - Thanks! - Shaker expands through acquisition - Beware Google prepares to plant it's colors on UK soil - Google Duplex -- Again?? - Careerbuilder keeps the home fires burning - not in a good way - What the Hell is Apollo doing? - Broadbean moves to "The Ghetto" Enjoy, and give our sponsors a big hug. America's Job Exchange, JobAdX and Sovren love the warm-and-fuzzy. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous broadcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Yo yo yo, it's your favorite podcast. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese show, HR's most dangerous. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: Sowash, Chad Sowash. Joel: You're still Chad, aren't you? On this week's show, Google says, "Good Day, Gov'na!" Shaker shakes things up. You see what I did there? And the dumpster fire rages on at Career Builder. Chad: Jesus. Joel: Yes, it's actually getting worse. Grab some marshmallows, we're making s'mores, right after this word from Sovren. Sovren: Sovren AI Matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching, visit sovereign.com. That's sovren.com. Chad: So smart. Joel: How was your 4th of July? Chad: It was amazing. Joel: Yeah, we took a little break. Chad: Yeah, now, I took a break myself. Being pretty much on the road for a month solid, I binge watched with my lovely wife Julie, Luke Cage. And that's exactly what I was looking for. Joel: It was sort of bleepin' hot where we were for the 4th. So I pretty much stayed in. Now, the benefit that I get is being married to a Canadian, I get to celebrate Canada Day. Which I didn't even know existed before I married a Canadian. Chad: Who would? Joel: But it's kind of a fun little, Let's drink beer and we go up to her sister's in London, Ontario. We have a good ol' time. So, I had a nice little end to end, two country birthday celebration last week but I am ready to get back on the horse and do some podcasting. Chad: Damn straight, its about time. Joel: Shout outs! Chad: Shout out! Chad: Okay, first shout out. Shout out to The Shred. Joel: The Shred. Chad: What the hell is The Shred? It's a new breaking new segment from your favorite podcasters, The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Here's the thing about The Shred, you've got to subscribe because here is why guys, We're not going to put all of this breaking news on the website. Reason being is, it happens all the damn time. So, if you subscribe using iTunes, Google Play, SoundCloud, whatever it is that you use for your podcasts, it will automatically notify you. And guess what? You will be apart of the breaking news. So, go check out The Shred on the website, you can subscribe and you are off and running with breaking news. Joel: Look, we know a lot of these addicts out there, They can't wait until Friday for the skinny. They gotta have it immediately. Which is why we did The Shred. These little bite size snippets of news. So, you need to subscribe in order to get it but we think it will be really really cool. I'd say this first week with the Career Builder news which we will talk about and the Google news that you broke will be, we will make well worth your while to push subscribe on your latest podcast solution. Chad: Yeah, numbers are already sky rocketing by the way and we haven't even talked about it yet. Joel: It's the bomb! Speaking of, With all of these new listeners, lets make sure that we remind them to vote Chad and Cheese on the upcoming TA Tech nominations for Best of Everything in Recruiting. That's right! If you get up to chadcheese.com, there is a big ole' image that Chad made, it says 'Vote Chad and Cheese' or something. Just chick that, find us on the ballot and click the radio button. Chad: Vote it up. Vote it up. chadcheese.com. So, Angelo over at RoboRecruiter was listening and he loved the Down Goes Slack podcast. He called it 'juicy'. I don't know if we've ever been called juicy before. Joel: Juicy, I've had my booty called juicy before but never a podcast. Chad: What I was thinking is that I could actually go out and get you some of those Juicy Couture sweatpants that say 'juicy' across the back and you can wear those to all our live events moving forward. Thank you, Angelo! Joel: Those would look great with my yoga pants by the way. Wow, the show can only go down from here. Shout out to Ally O, our latest Firing Squad victim. If you have not listened to the latest Firing Squad, check that out. It was a great interview. I won't tell the audience how we voted, but it was favorable for the most part. Chad: Yeah, Ally O, literally are looking to replace recruiters with their technology, their AI, their machine there, whatever the hell you want to call it. I really don't care, it's a platform and I mean they are up front about it. So, yeah it's pretty cool. Joel: Yeah, I think one of the quotes was, "We have companies that are using us, we are their recruiter." Chad: Yeah. Joel: Period. Right? Did I remember that quote correctly? Yeah so, if you are worried about the future of your job as a recruiter, you might want to go check out the interview with Ally O. Chad: And last but least from my side of the house, Joanne De La Rosa, She is and avid listener. She's not even in our space. She's not even in the recruiting space, which is funny because we are hearing more stories of people who aren't even in recruiting and they listen to out podcast. Joel: What's wrong with you people? Chad: I love 'em. I love 'em. We are obviously one of the only pods that she listens to. But here's the thing, Joanne, she is suffering with some medical issues right now and she is recovering. We thought that we would give you a big, get well shout out from Chad and Cheese. Thanks for listening but again the feedback that we receive the engagement that we get from our listeners is huge. Which is very important to us but it is very important that you get well soon, Joanne. Joel: The feedback is our oxygen and a quick note to say hey. If you haven't reviewed us on iTunes, Google Play, wherever you listen please take a few seconds to give us some feedback, we would really appreciate it. Joel: My final shout out for the week goes to Judge.com. Chad: Woo Hoo! Joel: I'm book ending with The Shred at the beginning. Judge is our exclusive Shred sponsor. I'd never even heard of them until we did the podcast because one of our most fanatical listeners, husband works for them and they became a sponsor. So, Judge, big shout out. Thanks for supporting us. We love you. That's judge.com. Chad: That's a hell of a URL. I mean who gets that domain. They have been around longer than you and I have. So, they are not a new group right? Joel: 1958, I think that they have been around. Almost as long as Shaker. Which is a great segway. I know that we want to talk about The Cheap Seats first but yeah, talking about old organizations, Judge is one of them. Chad: Yeah, no shit. So, we are going to set up The Cheap Seats. Why don't you go ahead and set up The Cheap Seats. Joel: You want me to, it's your idea. Chad: I know but you know. Joel: Okay so, we have great listeners and they all have opinions. Many of them like to share their opinions with us. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And have conversations outside of the podcast. And in some cases, we believe like, "Hey this is kinda worthy of more publicity, more exposure." So we thought lets have a little segment called The Cheap Seats. Where we sort of discuss and elaborate on topics that we discuss in private in some cases with our listeners. Chad: Yeas, Yeah. So, Danielle Kluge over at Pontoon, sent us a message, she said that she listened to the Down Goes Slap podcast and she agrees that with more of the simplified positions. We are talking about AI and machine learning and what not. That CDL drivers and warehouse workers can be taken over by AI. Although, she does think that for niche positions, it's going to be a hell of a lot more difficult. So, your thoughts on that Joel? Joel: Define a niche position for me and the audience. Chad: Yeah, a niche position being, lets say for instance, a rocket scientist. That would be a hell of a niche position. Joel: Brain surgeon. Chad: Yeah, yeah. So anything that is not just you have to have a pulse, to be able to work here kind of thing. So, they are more than just the simplified jobs. Joel: I would side on agreeing with that. I think that when you have high turn over, a lot of churn organizations, lower educated folks. We are talking restaurants, hourly, seasonal stuff, I think AI and automation makes perfect sense for that. I think that you as well love the platforms, the Uber type platforms for those folks, where they can turn on themselves and match them with an opportunity for the day to go do that that day. Joel: When we are looking at people who hello, have jobs like scientists, surgeons, doctors, nurses, that becomes much more challenging. Those are the recruiters that have relationships locally, that go to meet up, that go to colleges and build relationships with these folks in order to get into where they live at work and what they do locally and socially. So, I totally agree that automation with start with the lowest common denominator. I would be a little careful to say a 100 years from now, is it not going to penetrate into higher level folks. You and I won't be around probably, we might just be two talking heads in a fish bowl. But I think in the short term, yes. I think that we are a long way from attracting and retaining and recruiting high level folks through automation and AI. Chad: Hey that's why we are feeding the machines right? I mean the machine learning piece of it. So yeah, you gotta start somewhere. So you start at the base. So, machine learning is training the machine to understand more complex problems. We have seen that. I mean we take a look at the IBM debater project that we just talked about a couple of weeks ago. I mean, we are debating, we are playing chess, we are doing all of these things. These are complex problems right? So, the niche positions, yeah they are going to start going after those niche positions as the machine learns. That's what it comes down to. So feeding the machine, those niche positions are also going to be taken by these algorithms. There is no question. Joel: And let's not forget that advertising is going to get better. Right? If you have seen Minority Report, there is nothing saying in the future that a doctor, rocket scientist, will be known as a rocket scientist and as they go to the store to buy groceries and ad pops up about a job as a rocket scientist. Like, advertising will get more, will get smarter as well. Chad: Yup, yup. So thank Danielle for your take on it. Love it. Keep it coming. Joel: Thanks Danielle, good take. Chad: Hot take. OK the next on is from Steven Rothberg, college recruiter. (Booing) Joel: Steven knows us, he will appreciate that. Chad: He loves it. So, Steven tweeted us. So this is out in the public. Chad: Chad and Cheese, love the idea that all hourly workers will be hired through on demand gig apps. Like we have been talking about the Ubers and the Lyfts. But I don't see it. I get that a restraunt can hire a dish washer for a shift at the last minute but would you want your server to have almost no training? Chad: So what do you think about that? Joel: So, I think that the apps that we've talked about will, you know a lot of these services have badges or they tag people as pros for certain positions. So, I think what these apps are hoping to achieve is, okay if you are a server at Olive Garden, You can be a server at any Olive Garden in town. You could probably be a server at Chili's and probably be a server at Logan's Steakhouse or something right? Chad: Yep. Joel: So, this case, this person could have badge that says I could work at any Olive Garden, any Boca Di Beppo, whatever restaurants those are and then if I am the employer, I can say I only want my opportunity to show up for people who have badges for Olive Garden, or whatever the restaurant is and that can be a match up. I don't think that you can just have a random dude come in to Olive Garden and say okay what's the menu and what do we do, and train them. I don't think that's going to be the future but I do think you can have a badge system where people can automatically can fit into positions. Whether it's a server, a cook, anything. Chad: Right and well, think of it and just now from a driver's stand point and Uber and Lyft. They've done a ton of the heavy lifting right? You can see who the person who is picking you up, the color of the car, but just think of that from the stand point of being able to see the person and their experience within this platform. Where else have they worked? What is their rating? Right? What is their show rate? Those types of things, I think, it makes it much easier to be able to really work within the gig economy itself. To be quite frank, I really think that this is a stop gap solution until automation takes those gigs away. We see McDonald's implementing kiosks, Chili's has a table side electronic menu that you can actually pay your bill through. Go to Kroger and most of the people are actually going through the self service lines. I mean, we are teaching ourselves to get away from actually using human beings and this is going to be another one of the areas where that happens. Chad: One of the examples I used was, I've been in a lot of airports lately. You go up to the counter, and especially in these international airports, to be able to order food, there is an iPad that's there. You use the iPad to order your food, somebody brings you your food, that will probably change in the future. But where is the waiter, where is the waitress? They are gone. Joel: I think that we are a ways away from that, maybe not in the fast food segment but the food service. I mean, the trend is that millennials apparently don't like to cook. They want to go out to eat where it's fast casual or whatever, right? So, you have more demand for these restaurants but there is less talent to sort of take care of these folks. How many times have you gone to a restaurant and there are just tables just sitting there and they tell you it's a thirty minute wait. And you are like there are like eight tables over there. Well, they don't have people to support that. Joel: I think that the magic of the platform, lets back up. So, in Steven's world, I post a job on Craigslist or Zip Recruiter right? I get ten folks that are interesting, I talk to them. Three come in. One doesn't show up. The other one leaves after the first week and I get one person who stays on and I train them, I train everybody but that's huge headache. If I know that there is a conference in town or there's an event, or hey I know that I am going to be short staffed, to be able to win-win open up an app and there's eight people ready to work tonight. Chad: On Demand. Joel: On Demand. They are in there and I know that they can do the job. That's a huge win-win, not only for the restaurant but for the worker because they work on their terms as opposed to the boss's terms. Chad: Yup, and in a perfect world, that person would post their job on Collegerecruiter.com, right Steven? Joel: Which lets be honest, Steven doesn't like that model because it's not his model. Chad: Well not yet. Last person from the Cheap Seats is Johnathan Mills. He had some great questions in clarifying what's going on with Google for Jobs. We've been talking about this and we are going to talk more about it. From my stand point, I've actually talked to a ton of people around what Google for Jobs actually means. They get is confused with the actual API, the job discovery API, in higher and there is a lot of crossing of the streams when you have these conversations. So, my advise, not just to Johnathan but to everybody that's out there, is that you can listen to our show because we talk about it all of the time. We actually have contacts at Google and we try to definitely work hard to get this right, but do your research. Find out what is going on out there. Whether you are in town acquisition, you should definitely be doing your research or if you are a vendor who could prospectively be competing with this, you better know your shit guys. This is very important. So, just to be able to kind of take it laissez faire. You are not going to be able to do that. There are big names in this industry now and its time to bone up and get ready. Joel: Yeah, you know, Google is historically really bad at this whole branding thing. They have always been sort of a branded house as opposed to a house of brands. Which has it's own benefits. I mean, YouTube was kept YouTube. Do you remember Google Video? I do, right? But YouTube is a brand and people in the brain, branded is really nice. So, like I agree that this is your life, this is your profession. You should know the difference between Google, Google for Jobs, the Cloud API and Google Hire. But at the same time Google could do a better job instead of just tagging on these words behind Google to help people understand. Now they got to worry about Google Calendar, Google Chrome, Google is everywhere and it's hard for consumers to keep everything in line. Chad: Big props to Johnathan because in most cases you just kind of take the information that's coming to you and just go on and reverberate that shit, right? He was actually looking for it. He was researching and he wanted an opinion on what's going on. So, big ups to Johnathan and thanks for reaching out to us. Thanks for all of our Cheap Seats listeners. We might do this again, who knows. Joel: Yeah. Let us know, if you hate the Cheap Seats, if there's a topic that you want to discuss on Cheap Seats reach out to one of us or go to ChadCheese.com but let's take a quick break. Right? And then we are gonna come back and talk about a recent acquisition. JobAdX: How many times has someone said to you, "We are the Uber of. Or It's the Paypal of." Maybe they are the Facebook of. In many many cases these cases fall short of being close to reality or even a useful illustration of what organizations actually do. In the case of JobAdX our example is so accurate, so spot on that it is synonymous with our work. JobAdX is Google Ad for jobs, that means that we are efficient, consistent and smarter ad unit for job related advertising. As the best ad tool in the industry, JobAdX offers recruitment marketing agencies RPOs and staffing firms real time dynamic bidding an delivery for client postings through the industries first truly responsive tool. All of this is done with the flexibility of JobAdX's cost per impression, click, or application. We offer unique budget conservation options to effectively eliminate spending waste. We're not set in regret, for direct clients, JobAdX delivers superior candidates with the best of programmatic efficacy and premium page ad positioning. We also provide publishes on job boards, higher rev share and other partners through our smart programmatic platform. In many cases, thirty to forty percent greater through our scalable model. JobAdX: To partner with us, you can visit or search JobAdx.com or email us at joinus@jobAdx.com to get estimates or begin working together. JobAdX, the best ad tool providing smarter programmatic for your needs. Oh and if you've been wondering about the British accent? JobAdX just launched in the UK too. Joel: You know Job Gate, coming up for our listeners that are going. I am pretty sure that JobAdX is going to be there, so if you are interested, find Isabelle or Tim or whoever and learn more. Chad: Oh yeah. And I believe that they are also up for one of the innovator awards. So again, when you go to Chadcheese.com and you click on the vote, they will be up for one of those awards too. So, vote for JobAdX. Joel: Do that thing. Because if they are successful, we keep getting paid, that's what I am talking about. Chad: Amen Brother. Joel: Yep. Shaker! Chad: Acquiring the Arland Group? So, didn't see that coming did you? Joel: We don't see a lot of agency on agency crime. In the industry, where they buy each other. It's usually private equity firms or they just downsize to the point where they are just skeleton crews. But yeah, this was a rare acquisition. Newspapers for sure have been probably the most demolished industry since the dawning of Craigslist and Job boards and everything that has happened. But agencies thrived as newspapers thrived. So, as the decline of newspapers has happened, agencies have gone through an incredible evolution of going from getting 15% on a $5,000 display ad, and just basically picking up the phone to actually having sales staffs that are consultants and have to know a lot of different technologies and job boards. To me, we are at this time in the agency business where there is going to be some consolidation. There is going to be some smaller firms merge into bigger firms. And this is just this sort of happening. Joel: Shaker has been around for a long time. I think they are third generation now. It really is family owned business. You talk to a lot of people there and their name is Shaker. The people that have been there for a long time. So, its nice to see them consolidate some other brands that have a lot of consistencies with theirs. I know Arland Group, it's like a ten person shop but they are really in line with what Shakers culture is. So, it was a perfect fit. What are you thoughts? Chad: Its all about footprint at this point right? There is money to be made in the recruitment industry. I mean money is being thrown around left and right. So, not to mention that you have clients who have no clue how to spell programmatic, let alone how to go out and buy it. You've got employer brand. You've got all of these things that employers just suck at. I mean, they just really do. A lot of it has to do with they do not have the time to become good at it. They have other things that they need to do, so they need experts in this space. So, I think that it's great from the stand point of Shaker, really increasing footprint. You know they are in Chicago. The Arland Group is in St. Louis and just really starting to grow to be able to also get that Book of Business that the Arland Group had. You are talking about two leaders, Deb Andrychuk and Joe Shaker who I think really compliment each other well. Joel: You know, the talent that these agencies have had. Hey have gone from sort of people who can pick up a phone or shmooze a client. You know a three martini lunch, lets be honest, it doesn't take a lot to call a newspaper and say, "I'm placing an ad, I am going to fax it over and run it." Right? To have a sales person or an account executive that understands programmatic and automation and chatbots and what job boards are still relevant, all of these Google products. That takes someone with a brain and the agencies with the most brains are going to win. So I think a lot of the moves by Shaker, who frankly has done a really good job of retaining the best talent at their company, the people who talk about these things, merging with the Arland Group to like ad to your sales force of more people who understand that language, is only going to make them stronger. So, I think that this was an acqui-hire if you will, as much as it was getting the clients that Arland Group has, etc. It probably wasn't a huge acquisition but it was a strategic and a really smart acquisition from a talent and customer stand point. Chad: Yeah, I agree. I agree and you take a look at the TMPs of the world who really are differentiating themselves with tack, like Talentbrew. I think five years ago, ten years ago, that was a good move, but today? I don't think that it is sustainable. I think it's about the people because we have so much tech that's happening from a start up stand point. Hell, we were talking about Ally O earlier. How can TMP focus on all of these different areas, employer brand and programmatic and so on and so forth and still continue to be an "agency/tech company". I think that is incredibly hard and not sustainable, where a Shaker and Arland Group, they are smaller there is no question but there is just more focus there which makes it much nicer. The KRTs of the world who really focus on programmatics. So, I think that we are starting to see a shift. Joel: Yeah, they have gone from like okay we are getting 15% of a display in the newspaper, now we are getting 15% of a $99 job posting. So, the evolutions says, "Okay, why don't we just make our own job board, why don't we make our own ATS, Why don't we make all of our own stuff and then we get 100% of the profit." You know the sort of wear with all to compete with the people who actually do that specifically. So, I think that they have learned, "Okay, we just need to be really really good at being consultants and helping our clients make the best decisions." And in the course of job postings sort of going away or becoming commoditized, the real value is in the technology that is being created today. Customers need to make sense of all the noise that's out there and agencies can fill hat void. Chad: Yeah, and it's noisy as hell. Joel: Speaking of noisy, if you watched the World Cup yesterday, England losing. Unfortunately for me. Chad's a frenchie, we won't get into that but the noise coming from the UK is a nice segway into Google for Jobs opening shop in England, in the UK. Chad: In the UK. Joel: No one is shocked right? Chad: They shouldn't be. It's interesting, Patrick Walch over at AIA Worldwide, who was a sister company of TMP. He started to see pretty much the signs, the patterns of testing within the UK. Which is what he's seen in Canada, kind of duplicating the things that he has seen in Canada and in India when Google was actually launching there. So, we have been talking about Google for Jobs coming to the UK and it looks like it is on it's way. Joel: Do you think that, the Uk is sort of a unique environment because its so staffing heavy as opposed to the US. Do you think that is why, because to me the UK that seems like a really natural progression. The fact that they went Canada, India and even South America in a few places. Do you think that was the reason that the UK was sort of slow, or just Google being Google? Chad: I think that is some of it, but there is also a huge lawsuit against Google right now and the billions of dollars. When it comes to Google, it used to be froogle but anyway when they were starting to aggregate all of the different sites to be able to create a buyers site and that was infringing on business. That's what the UK was finding so they have that monopoly kind of bad word thing happening. So, I think that it made sense for Google to better understand a way or create and better way for users to experience and utilize other sites. So, like Google aggregates from the same job from Zip Recruiter, College Recruiter and the advertising agency and so on and so forth. The user can actually pick who to apply through. So there is that choice that is in there and it's not that monopoly kind of thing. So, we have watched the evolution happen through the actual user, the UI itself for Google for Jobs. I think that was one of the big pieces of it. Joel: Sometimes having you on the show really pays off and I think that your comment about the GDPR stuff and the privacy and the lawsuits probably is the reason Google has waited to open up in the UK. Chad: It's a lot of money. Joel: It is a lot of money. So, yeah Google is going to be everywhere at some point. Unless, you know like China, where you can't get into but Google for Jobs will be everywhere. You don't have to worry about it, you better start thinking about it. Something else to start thinking about, voice assistance on a commercial level. Chad: Duplex maybe? Joel: Duplex. Dude, this thing is happening much faster than I imagined. I thought we were like three to five years from this, but a story came out last week that Duplex is starting to test commercial applications for call centers. So, yeah, you call a call center now and it's, "Hello, press number 1 for blah, blah, blah." So, Duplex is going to start acting like you are talking to a real person and it will feel much more organic. Also, it came out that Alexa, Amazon's Alexa is test commercial applications as well. So, Mr. Mrs. Recruiter, you know this might be coming sooner than you think. So, if you are too concerned about understanding Google for Hire from Google for Jobs, you might get run over at some point by this thing called Duplex while you are sitting around figuring out the difference between an ATS and a job search. Chad: Yeah, well and this just goes back to earlier from the Cheap Seats, will AI be able to catch up? Here is a great example guys. I mean if you watch the Duplex demonstration, it is amazing and then think of all the other applications that you can plug into this. The thing that really gets me and I think that it is funny is all of these people saying, "Well it's a computer and they are talking to me on the phone, shouldn't they identify themselves as a machine?" Why? Seriously, what's the purpose? Joel: By the way, I am going to flip this a little bit because stories of like job seeker robots and bots are coming out. Imagine a world employer where a job seeker can instruct Duplex to call 100 companies on their behalf in a day to try and set up interviews with that company and reference that persons resume to answer questions that you might have about that candidate. Like that could be a real thing. Everyone could start having to worry about phone calls coming into the HR department about jobs and that is something to think about. Right now, they don't they just get emails and digital stuff. Chad: Machines will be talking with machines. Joel: The phone might come back with machines. Chad: Machines are going to be talking too. And That's what happened with Facebook, if you remember. One of the reasons why the big blow up happened with Facebook's AI is because Facebook was working on really their machines negotiating against themselves and to be able to do it more efficiently. So, as the Facebook system, the machine learning started to see that the English language was really inefficient, so it created it's own English language and it just morphed from there. So, I mean, we already have apps, machines that are already doing these things, these negotiations, these outreach pieces. It's already happening today guys. So, to think that it's not going to happen especially with the Duplex interface. Man, don't put your head in the sand. Joel: Amen. Lets take a quick break. Chad: Yeah, AJE. Joel: Yeah, we will talk about CareerBuilder, one of our favorite topics. So, stay tuned and buckle up. Oh shit. AJE: America's Job Exchange is celebrating our 10th year as an industry leader in diversity recruitment and OFCCP compliance. We've been helping our 1,000 plus customers comply with OFCCP regulations that directly support positive and effective diversity recruitment. Designed to attract and convert veterans, individuals with disabilities, women and minorities. And empower employers to pursue and track active outreach with local community based organizations. Want to learn more? AJE: Call us at 866-926-6284 or visit us at www.americasjobexcange.com Joel: Well, lets get to what everybody was waiting for, CareerBuilder. Holy cow, what a mess. Chad: Crazy. Joel: So, my first Shred was that we got some word that three folks, executive level folks had been a combination of fired and just left the Titanic I guess. Let's go through these real quick. Douglas H, VP of Sales apparently fired. Now he is unique because he was names in the recent sexual harassment lawsuit but our buddy Lori McInerney. We don't know if he was terminated because of the lawsuit or if there was some internal investigation but the word is that he is gone. Everything that I have heard about this guy from at least two or three folks is that he was just not a good dude. Like he was not a good person, I guess he could sell his ass off but most of the people that I talked to are pretty glad that he is gone. Michael Zellner is gone, another VP of Sales is gone. The word that I have gotten on him is he was the last ethical VP at the company. So, apparently its just Caligula now and Thunder dome at CareerBuilder. The last one that you knew, that you got wind of was Mark Landwer, President of Enterprise Field Sales. Do you know where he ended up? Chad: I don't. Joel: Okay, and from what we know, he was just getting the hell out of Dodge. Chad: And Dude, I am telling you right now. People are scared at CareerBuilder, and this is just my personal experience. I have contacts at CareerBuilder who won't connect with me unless it's in person. I feel like I am apart of spy games or something. Joel: What do you mean, like you are meeting people in garages? Like cover of darkness before they will talk to you? Chad: You know, it's in person, wherever that might be but it's got to be in person, it can't be something that I guess is traceable, I don't know dude. But there is paranoia that is going on around that place that I am not sure that can be duplicated. Joel: Are you surprised? Chad: No. Shit I am not surprised. Joel: I'd be horrified to go into that place to work everyday. Chad: Well, you have heard a little about Apollo and Broadbean, tell me about that. Joel: Yeah, so, whenever this stuff happens at CareerBuilder, inevitably more people come out of the woodwork and go, "Yeah, did you know about A, B and C." The harassment lawsuit, apparently there is another sexual harassment lawsuit that is brewing out of Canada that was in response to the Chicago, Laurie's lawsuit. That has not come to fruition yet. That may happen. So, that's happening apparently but we got word after The Shred update that Apollo is closing the Broadbean Newport Beach office. Which you have actually been to right? Chad: No, I haven't but I have seen pictures and from my understanding, it's an awesome office. Joel: I mean, Newport Beach is awesome as itself. Anyway, they are apparently moving to a "ghetto place right next to the John Wayne Airport." I have flown into the John Wayne Airport which was pretty nice. The luggage place is outside, which is nice but yeah I don't know if the area around is that good. So if it is bad Broadbean employees are. I'm sure really happy to leave Newport Beach to go to a ghetto outside of John Wayne Airport. So, that's happening as well as, word is that there is large CareerBuilder telasales operation out of Chicago. It's being shuttered and reestablished in the Philippines. Chad: You gotta be shittin' me. Wow, if they wait about six months, they could do it with Duplex. Joel: Wow, that's a whole other topic telasales and the job space getting shuttered for Dulplex. But yes, my question is are they going, like okay, either all these executives are dirtbags and scum and Apollo is being smart and getting rid of everyone who is a cancer and they are eventually going to bring on rockstars who turn this thing around or they are just cutting everything and creating super efficiencies and they are just going to milk this cash cow until it dies. I don't know what they are doing, what are your thoughts? Chad: It's basic acquisition 101 right? You go in, you assess which is what they did for a few months. And then you start looking for costs that you can get rid of. You got to look at your margins. You got to look at that cost that you can get rid of. Now I do not know either one of these guys, they could be stellar, they could not be stellar. I have no clue at all but if you take a look at the high side of the salary spectrum, I am sure that they are on the high side of the salary spectrum. So, being able to perspectively get rid of some of these VPs, that's cost, that's overhead and then you take a look at this other piece where they over telasales? I don't know, but these are all cost measures. Plus, hell, If you was actually named in the lawsuit, not saying that he was actually terminated because of the lawsuit, but that's a lot of noise and there is a lot of shit going on. So, I mean anybody who is there today at CareerBuilder, dude I am sorry that all of this noise is happening. Hopefully, you can gain some focus or a new position somewhere else. Joel: So, Randstad buys Monster. They get rid of everyone on executive level, but then they bring in a whole new team. It changes the culture, the direction and try to revive a dying monster. Pun intended. So, CareerBuilder feels like an absolute Gordon Gecko style, rip it up, sell the pieces, monetize as much as you can and then at some point sell the whole thing down the road. Like that's what this feels like because I haven't seen any indication besides a new COO who is from Apollo, that they are interested in turning this thing around. It's like a total chop shop at this point. Chad: If you had seen this over the next three years as they ramp up to try to get acquired by somebody else who knows. That would make more sense. It's like it's they are really trying to flip this thing quick and the waves that come out of this, I don't think that they are doing anybody any good. Joel: They are doing us some good because we have a lot of stuff to talk about every week. So, from our stand point, keep burning shit CareerBuilder because it's fun to talk about. Chad: Fill the dumpster and keep it on fire. Joel: Are we out? Chad: We out. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, The Chad and his buddy Cheese. This has been The Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get you podcast, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit ChadCheese.com. #GoogleforJobs #Google #Shaker #ArlandGroup #GoogleDuplex #Broadbean #Careerbuilder

This is Part II of a two-part podcast LIVE from Tempe Arizona and the TAtech AI Summit. It’s a hype-free discussion around “AI and Automation” Aaron Matos – CEO of Paradox Olivia Yongue – Director of Client Strategy at KRT Marketing Sahil Sahni – Co-Founder of AllyO. Enjoy, and support our sponsors: Sovren, JobAdX and Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. (music) Chad: Hey it's Chad and this is part two of a two-part podcast, we're just finishing up in Tempe, Arizona at the TA Tech AI Summit. It's a hype free discussion around AI and automation with Aaron Matos, CEO of Paradox, Olivia Youngue, Director of Client Strategy at KRT Marketing and Sahil Sahni, Co-Founder of AllyO. And, of course, some snark and opinion from Chad and Cheese. Enjoy. Joel: It's commercial time. Sovren: Sovren is known for providing the world's best and most accurate parsing products. And now, based on that technology comes Sovren's artificial intelligence matching and scoring software. In fractions of a second, receive match results that provide candidate score by fit to job. And, just as importantly, the job's fit to the candidate. Make faster and better placements. Find out more about our suite of products today, by visiting sovren.com, that's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Sovren: We provide technology that thinks, communicates and collaborates, like a human. Sovren, software so human you'll want to take it to dinner. Chad: It's show time. Joel: One of the things I loved early on, Aaron, when we spoke about Olivia and ... It's not necessarily a question for him, that's fine ... Is, you're trying to solve the mobile apply issue, which was the heart of the whole movement. For you, anyway. And as anyone in this audience knows, we've been trying to figure out the mobile apply thing for a long, long time. Just pushing apply through LinkedIn and then going to LinkedIn and then coming back, it just didn't work. And you created this mobile chat bot, or whatever you want to call it, to create an apply system through- Chad: Assistant. Joel: Yeah. Through a conversation- Aaron: He's getting it. Joel: ... and I thought that was fantastic, so a year or so since launching, talk about the mobile activity versus desk top. Maybe what's next for this, are we going to see voice assistants? Walk someone through an apply process. Aaron: We got to the concept of this behind two things, one was, yes we were trying to solve mobile. We had made it not pinch and zoom ugly, but there was still crazy forms, and so this has been an obsession. How do you fix mobile apply, where candidates want to raise their hand in a mobile environment. The other piece that was driving us was we saw the problem that when I walked in to large TA teams, where they were all staring at their computers. Aaron: And I just did not believe that the value of recruiting is in us playing with software. And so, it kind of got to be a pebble in my shoe of like, I think there's the 80/20 problem of, we're spending 80% of our time on admin stuff and 20% on people stuff and we should flip that. So, those two things juxtaposed to drive. Today, mobile on the candidate experience side is utterly amazing. Conversion rates in the hundreds of percents better because the process is easier. Aaron: And that piece, I think, will just continue. The computer of the future is a mobile device. And that's still working it's way through the enterprise. I joke about this all the time, go take a Millennial and put him in front of [Toyo 00:03:46]. No offense to Toyo, but they look at it and they're like, "Where the hell do I Skype?" Like it's the most confusing stuff in the world and so, our enterprise software also has to take a transition from the last 20 years we built software purely for the enterprise. Aaron: For the recruiters, for the HR departments, and we have to change that. We have to start building software first and foremost for the candidates, because if you build great candidate experiences, you'll actually have a great experience for the company. Joel: Kyle, for the record, he drew first blood on Millennials, just for the record. Aaron: I love Millennials. They're our favorite. Joel: How are you working with ATS's, are integrations that paramount? Do you care? Aaron: oh absolutely, I think it's ... We have a huge network of partners on the ATS and the CRM side for ... All the enterprises have these. We have to plug into this, there is a system of record and we have to help facilitate communications in a different way. We view that as our strength, our strength is to help facilitate communications, be able to talk to candidates in a new way, do that through different channels; through the mobile, mobile web, whether that's their Facebook, WhatsApp. Any kind of channel. Aaron: But the ATS is still core, that's not changing. The CRM systems have a different layer, someone talked earlier about the CRM penetration, and the enterprise, I think, is pretty high. And that idea is, how do we get more candidates into the CRM to actually start doing work? Chad: On the data side, some of the data that we have to work with is garbage. I mean, take a look at job descriptions. They haven't changed for five years, or even Plus, right? So, if you're trying to build algorithms off of data that's garbage ... We've always heard, garbage in, garbage out. How do you get ... And not only that, from a resume standpoint, when I have an asshole who puts frickin' 'ninja' on their resume, right? How does that even correlate to what I'm looking for? Chad: Wizard. Something of that nature, right? So if you're working on ... Yeah ... If you're working with garbage data, I mean, how do you get passed that? How do you build ontologies that gets passed garbage? Sahil: Well that is the challenge, and that's the IP. You cannot take the Google AI and assume that it applies to recruiting. We, Google as a customer and a partner for us, you just can't do that. You have to build it. And even recruiting as a generalization is very broad. Different kinds of skills, different kinds of challenges you're solving. So when you say "role" even the world "role" could mean very different in the usual Google sense, which is very broad, versus what you're looking in recruiting. Sahil: To your point, we built the whole ontology to parse all the jobs recs. You guys know of how LinkedIn and Indeed scrape every job rec an ATS and just show the job recs. We took that a step forward and we said, "Hey, can you parse the information in there to extract the job title? The location? And the requirements?" And it's- Chad: The requirements in many cases are still junk. Sahil: Oh 100%. Chad: You'll see, you'll see, you'll see "needs a bachelor's degree," and it's like, "Oh yeah we haven't needed that for two years, because it's a tight job market." So it's like, yeah we haven't needed that for a couple years now. What the hell do you do? Sahil: Well, this is what you do. A, you use technology to parse that and surface what's on there, because the recruiters are not looking at it. Right? The hiring managers posted it, and no one's looking at it. That's number one. Chad: Because they're too busy scheduling shit. Sahil: Right, they're too busy doing other stuff. Who has the time to go change the years of experience from three to two? When you've got 80 candidates to schedule? Second, what we push for is rapid deployment. When you deploy and you're scheduling interviews with McDonald's in San Jose, and they're getting candidates who have one year of experience, within a week or two weeks, they will text or email AllyO and say, "Hey this needs to be two years." Sahil: So you've taken what they have, you deploy, you let them review it. They need to sign off, we don't take liability for that, but you deploy because it's publicly out there. And then they, over time, optimize. That's the way you do it. You could spend all your time doing material, what's the perfect job description? But the reality is, a job description should vary by region because the label market changes. Chad: So, Olivia, is this a major point that you talk to your clients about constantly? We were talking about this for decades, have we not? We've been talking for at least 20 years, as long as we've been doing goddamn job postings, right? Before Monster was Monster. Why hasn't it changed? And will it? And will these types of platforms start to surface the need to be able to do that? Olivia: Absolutely. I mean, job descriptions are stale. All of my clients are like, when we talk about low-converting jobs and why they're not converting, we take a look at the job title, the description, maybe there's something in there that we could change and tweak to increase SEO, to increase traffic. And so, those are conversations we're having with them daily that, ultimately, impacts larger discussion of going back and updating all job descriptions. Olivia: But just thinking about ATS integrations and, I want to talk about programmatic a little bit, we've been doing a lot of work of integrating with ATS's. Chad: That's gotta be hard, though, from a programmatic standpoint, if you've got garbage, right? To be able to target. Olivia: And the reason why it's important is right now in current state, we, essentially, get a live feed of completed applications feeding back to our system. So we can optimize programmatic campaigns, based off how many completed applications are coming through per job. However, we'd like to take this a step further and optimize per qualified applicant. Olivia: And so, having that live feeding integration set up with ATS's is so important. I mean, not only driving the cost-per-application down for our customers, but just having that real-time data that we're not getting today. So, it's just something difficult that we're working towards to, essentially, offer in the near future. Chad: Yeah, this is the bane of your existence right now. The job description. Aaron: I mean, the job description's always going to be a challenge. I think that's part of the challenge in matching. We're trying to take incomplete job descriptions and match them with incomplete resumes. People and jobs are complicated. They're very, very complicated. I mean, there's companies they're doing incredibly interesting, innovative stuff. Companies like Intel that have kind have gone reckless, not reckless, but "reckless". And are managing talent pipelines and looking more at how do I ... look at people and instead of them applying for our jobs, we look at what they can do and match them to jobs in our company. Aaron: So it's a lot of innovation that's happening around this. There's no perfect answer for that. Joel: Olivia, quickly, what percentage of your clients are using an AI tool, currently? Olivia: I'd say, probably, it's grown over the past year. There's definitely more awareness, some people just getting buy-in from leadership, but it's probably 30, 40%. So definitely room to increase that. Joel: How big do you think it will get? Do you think it will be 100% at some point? And if so, how long is it going to take us to get there? Olivia: I'd hope it'd be 100%. I mean, I want my clients to be using technology to make smarter decisions, to just work on areas of challenges; whether it's bandwidth or cost savings. A lot of the points I think Eric talked about today on one of the, I think four or five factors that you focus on, but I think it's going to take a little while. I think as awareness continues to grow and customers learning and understanding how it can help, probably in the next three years we'd see that adoption increase. Joel: It's commercial time. JobAdX: This is the sound of job search. This is the sound of job search defeat. Job search can be frustrating. Job seekers run into the same, irrelevant ads. Page after page before they find a match. When job seekers aren't engaged, conversions are low, budgets are wasted, jobs go unfilled. No one wins. But job search doesn't have to be defeating. JobAdX's smart search exchange references 400 data points to select the most targeted jobs, and deliver what job seekers really want to premium ad units across our network. JobAdX: Score! JobAdX: That's the sound of JobAdX's relevant results attracting a qualified candidate and filling your job faster. Find out how to improve your job advertising campaigns and increase candidate attraction and engagement by emailing us at: joinus@jobadx.com. JobAdX, together we can save job search. Chad: It's showtime. Joel: So let's talk, I'm going to talk about the great consolidation, if you will. So, recent news, TextRecruit was gobbled up by iCIMS a year or two ago. Canvas was in the news recently, these are text ... I guess text recruiting tools. We see Mya getting 30, 40-million. We see AllyO getting 18-million-ish, 19? Okay. I'm pretty good. Pretty close. Wade & Wendy are in the news this week, 7.6-million. So I'm assuming we're not going to see a flux of IPO's from chat bots and these kind of tools. Joel: What happens with the consolidation of these? Is this going to be something in the next 12 months that we're going to see? Is it further out? And if so, who will be the companies most likely to buy up the chat bots and the automation tools? I would assume ATS's, but I could be incorrect. Chad: So that's a good question. Sahil: So when you look at, when you look at new categories in an industry, so let's take talent acquisition here, typically consolidation gets pretty rampant when you have only one or two, or say one major player. So, consider the case of video interviewing, HireVue went off and others got consolidated. And then that one vendor ... That one vendor grows to a size where they become the plateau. HireVue, Hire.com, a lot of the CRM's are that category. Sahil: What's interesting about the space that Aaron and I are in, is that there are at least three or four very dominant players who are all feeding off each other's growth here. They're really feeding off each other's growth. And that is very unique- Sahil: What's that? Joel: Who are those three? Sahil: I won't name them, but one is AllyO. AllyO and, sorry, there are two dominant players. AllyO and Olivia. But you know, everyone focuses ... Mike's looking at me with a sad face. Please... and Mya. I'm sorry. But, my point is ... Chad: Go get a beer, Mike. You deserve a beer. Sahil: The reason why 40% of the customers are into this, is not because AllyO just went in, went crazy. It was contribution from all three of us, and we're feeding off that. That is unique. And that uniqueness creates opportunity to actually have some major exits here. Some major exits meaning either going public or exits that are not a 500-million but you rarely see in the talent acquisition space. So that's point number one. Sahil: Point number two, in terms of who will acquire, I think consolidation will happen. Customers are asking for AI, vendors want to just demo ... Again, it's a pre-sale thing, it's not a post-sale thing. So customers just want to show something. You acquire ... I'll take a name ... You acquire Canvas and you can show, "Hey, I have texting feature in my tool kit," and then you can make the sale. Or you can retain the customer. Sahil: So that kind of acquisition is going to happen. For the larger acquisitions, where there is Olivia, AllyO, it really comes down to the most strategic partnerships here. And the way at least AllyO is growing, when we don't think we belong to, as an add-on on an ATS, or enhancing the staffing company or CRM, we actually, when we say it, we mean it. Sahil: We want to go end-to-end because customers really benefit, and the AI from the end-to-end is super powerful. And that puts us in a weird situation where we necessarily don't have a very solid acquisition strategy. We're not saying we built a feature of video interviewing, which would be bought out by an ATS. So, I hope that gives some color- Joel: I'm hearing AllyO IPO 2022. Sahil: You're close. You're close but you're a little further out. You need to be more optimistic. Joel: See, Aaron, if you don't ask the questions, you don't get the answers. Olivia: I would just add that one of the biggest pain points that I hear from customers is just all the different integrations that they have to even consider. So when vetting new technology, that is the absolute. One of the first questions that we ask is, who do you integrate with? What do you offer? What is the process like? Timelines? It's just so important that whatever technology and the tech-stack that comes under that, integrates with their current resources so it's not just this isolated resource that they're using. Olivia: So, I would hope that there are more acquisitions happening in the near future. And I have heard, also from clients, that it does make the decision easier on their end if they're looking at a new career site vendor. If they're already working with a chat bot vendor, that it's just easier to just bundle everything together instead of going with a career site vendor, and then vetting out different chat bots. So, just thinking ahead, with where the industry's going, I would definitely ... would like to see, maybe, job cases in the running with the 100-million-dollars that they just got. Aaron: Can I answer that one? Chad: Yeah. Aaron: I want to throw one out. Chad: Go right ahead. Have at it. Joel: Are you really going to answer it, though? Aaron: Yeah, I mean. He's going public in.. Joel: Yeah, so 2023? Aaron: I mean, I think the whole idea that there's consolidation in the industry might be over-stating it. This is an incredibly fragmented industry. The large ERP systems, the large ATS systems are ... This isn't like someone's got 40% market share. K1 did a cool thing with Jobvite and- Joel: You just said those three dominant players. Aaron: Well I think he meant in the ... Joel: In the room? Aaron: In the assistant chat bot space. I appreciate being put in the category, I also think that we are all really small. None of us are a 100-million-dollar company, unless there's something I don't know. Joel: Paul? Aaron: We're all small. We're all growing, and I think that's the opportunity. The space is getting ... The challenge is, you get to big system of records and then everyone wants innovation and the innovation's going to happen in point solutions. And so, if you're a big enterprise that needs to be cutting edge on candidate experience, you've got to go find a point solution that integrates them with your system of record. And that process is just ever continuing. Chad: So we're talking about tech stack earlier, right? Many hiring companies have a tech stack in place, and they're not even leveraging half. Maybe 25% of the power of that current stack. How do you get past years of companies saying I hate my ATS, even though they use 10% of it. And really start to understand, and imbed, your product into their process. Because, again, we heard earlier that process over tech. If their process is all jacked up, what are you doing other than putting tech on top of it and then them being able to point at you later and saying it's your fault. Aaron: I think the ATS is always at the challenge of ... have you ever met anyone who's like, "Oh my God, I love my ATS." That doesn't exist, really. I think trying to get adoption is something that we probably think of differently. We're trying to build tools that don't need adoption because they actually do work. Chad: So you're saying the ATS doesn't work? Aaron: No, not 'do work' that way, but they actually do work. Chad: Do work, gotcha. Aaron: But there's actually automation that's happening and functionality of ... So it doesn't need, per say, recruiter adoption, the tools actually start running in the background. So I think that piece, we see happening. I'm sure others do as well. Chad: Okay. Olivia: From what I see with my clients, whenever they're responsible for reporting back any KPI's that are related directly to their business or making a change, that's where they're more invested. So, I would say, talking to the stakeholders, our companies and trying to educate them more, if they're being tasked to come back and change, move the dial in one area, whether that's candidate engagement- Chad: What's the cornerstone KPI? What is the cornerstone KPI? 'Cause there's so many. Olivia: Depends on what product you're using. So, I mean, chat bot, could be engagement, it could be looking at scheduling software, how to improve rates there. It really depends what you're using. Chad: We're looking, and I think Xor was talking about time to fill? So, time to fill being ... I mean, that's something that's not as subjective, per say. 'Cause it is hard where the higher ratio, I mean you have to work with humans, and that's fairly subjective because you get hiring managers who make different decisions. So I mean, what do you see from your clients that is the KPI for them that just makes sense. Or the one that you guys are trying to push to them. Olivia: It's that 98% that I mentioned earlier that it's the percentage of candidates that aren't getting hired. Looking at the candidate funnel. And so, if they're going back to their team and, I mean, they're spending so much money recruiting for talent and recruitment marketing and trying to make sure they have a strategy in place if they're reaching the right talent. Chad: With a huge candidate data base, by the way. Olivia: Yeah. Chad: Go ahead. Olivia: Exactly. So it's waste. There's a lot of waste coming in, going out. And so, it's just a missed opportunity for these companies not to figure out a way to engage with that 98% that are not getting hired. Joel: How are you guys integrating your product with Second Life? Chad: Oh Jesus. Okay, we're going to skip that one. Joel: Just making sure everyone's awake. Okay. Chad: Who's doing virtual reality? Joel: I would say ... Let's give that back. Let's talk about ghosting. Ghosting is a real problem for employers. And a story I recently did someone ... Akin to you guys said, "Messaging, automation, chat bots are anti-ghosting magic." Talk about that. Sahil: One needs to go deeper as to what's the problem with ghosting. So the problem with ghosting is not somebody not showing up for an interview, the problem with ghosting is them not knowing that they're not going to show up. So let me just synthesize that down. If you knew they're not going to show up, then you don't need to wait for them. Chad: Yeah, give me a second, I got to take this, man. Okay, go ahead. Sahil: You got it? Chad: Yeah, I got it now. Sahil: Assistant. Okay. So- Chad: Tell him. Sahil: So, it's the ability to either have enough of an indication to be able to go back to the hiring manager and say, "Hey Sahil has less than a 25% chance that they're going to show up, because in the last two days, every interaction I've sent with them, they've just been very low." Plus with some macro data, which is ... In this market, X% of people are just applying for welfare or whatever, especially in their hourly or whatever it might be. Sahil: So ghosting is a problem. In fact, in the hourly world, if you guys don't know, seven out of 10 people who are scheduled for an interview don't show up. Seven out of 10. The value is not to make all seven show up, really, because they may not show up in the next interview. The value is being able to tell that hey, of the 10 people who are scheduled next week, here are the three that are most likely to show up and here are the six who may not show up. Or however that might be. Chad: Last question. Google. How is Google impact [crosstalk 00:23:09] client standpoint. Hired by Google, hired by Google, the API, Google for Jobs. I mean, not so much in Microsoft, the big names landing in this industry. How's that helped the other products to be able to really rise up? Because, again, Peter's first message to us is, you know, it rises all the boats. Olivia: So, with all of our clients, we absolutely talk about innovation when we think about their ... Let's pretend, 2019 recruitment media strategy. We always include a line item in our media plans for innovation and put a bucket of dollars there. We are just waiting for Google for Jobs to have an advertising product, because we know it's coming. So hopefully it's within this year. Olivia: So, that's something that we're paying very close attention to and we have, not a shameless plug, like on [KaraT's 00:23:57] website we have a whole Google for Jobs hub that we keep up with the latest and greatest trends. But second to that I think Google Cloud and layering that technology on top of a customers career site has been making a big impact on the way that candidates are searching for jobs. Olivia: And then also impacting once they are finding the right job, completing the application and then, ultimately, going in the hands of a recruiter. They're not getting so much waste and non-qualified talent because that does increase the jobs that they're looking for and what's coming up in the search results. Chad: Thank you all. We appreciate- Joel: Let's hear it for our panelists. Thank you guys. Chad: Give it up. Give it up for Hireology and JobAdX for the beer, we really appreciate it. Joel: Do you have any post questions, just on Twitter hashtag ChadCheese and we'll try to get answers. Chad: Thanks guys. Joel: Thanks guys. Joel: It's commercial time. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent tech space interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text. And so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas Bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off the Bitmoji. Canvas: We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: Thanks again to the team from TA Tech who always run a great event. Aaron from Paradox, Olivia from KRT and Sahil from AllyO. Joel and I will be at TA Tech events all over the world, so go to TAtech.org, heck out events, register and then grab a beer at our show. Sowash out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my step-dad, Chad, and his goofy friend, Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors, because I need new Trax bikes. You know, the expensive, shiny gold pair that are extra because ... Well ... I'm extra. Tristen: For more, visit ChadCheese.com. #TAtech #Paradox #AllyO #KRT #AI #Automation #MachineLearning

This is part one of a two-part podcast LIVE from Tempe Arizona and the TAtech AI Summit. It's a hype-free discussion around “AI and Automation" Aaron Matos - CEO of Paradox Olivia Yongue - Director of Client Strategy at KRT Marketing Sahil Sahni - Co-Founder of AllyO Topics: - Standard AI definition - AI Transparency vs. Explainability - Recruiter adoption for RPA or AI. WHY?!? - Is chatbot a dirty word? Enjoy, and support our sponsors: Sovren, JobAdX and Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash, and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Hey it's Chad, this is part one of a two part podcast we just finished in Tempe, Arizona, at the TAtech AI summit. It's a hype free discussion around AI and automation. Again, this is part one of a two part podcast, with Aaron Matos, CEO of Paradox, Olivia Yongue, director of client strategy at KRT Marketing, and Sahil Sani, co founder of AllyO, and of course, some snark and opinion from yours truly Chad and Cheese. Joel: It's commercial time. JobAdX: This is the sound of job search (computer mouse clicking). This is the sound of job search defeat (computer mouse clicking and a groan). JobAdX: Job search can be frustrating. Job seekers run into the same irrelevant ads, page after page before they find a match. When job seekers aren't engaged, conversions are low, budgets are wasted, jobs go unfilled. No one wins. But job search doesn't have to be defeating. JobAdx's smart search exchange references 400 data points to select the most targeted jobs, and delivers what job seekers really want, to premium add units across our network (computer mouse clicking, a man saying “score”). That's the sound of JobAdx's relevant results, attracting a qualified candidate and filling your job faster. Find out how to improve your job advertising campaigns, and increase candidate attraction and engagement by emailing us at; joinus@jobadx.com. JobAdx. Together we can save job search Chad: It's show time. Joel: I don't know how I feel about this reclining set up here. Like two old men. Where's the cigars and the smoking jacket. Chad: Just do your job. Joel: Hello everyone, I am Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: And we are the Chad and Cheese podcast. I feel safe saying if this room doesn't listen to our show, they probably should, raise a hand so you know who we are, anyone. Outstanding. Well I guess my intro's over. You can find out more about us at chadcheese.com, if you have any questions or comments about our little panel here, you can hashtag chadcheese, and we'll get to questions or try to reply at some point, and you're doing the intro here right? Everyone's doing sort of the 140 characters or less who you are and why you're here? And then we'll get to the Q and A. Aaron, would you like to start us off? Chad: Aaron starts. Aaron: Hey I'm Aaron Matos, I'm the founder and CEO of Paradox. Joel: Just a heads up, we're recording this Aaron, so choose your words wisely. Chad: You said 140 characters. Joel: I mean after the 140 characters. Olivia: Hello, I'm Olivia Yongue, and I am director of client strategy at KRT Marketing. Joel: Did you make those pants yourself or did you buy them like that? Chad: He wants to know cause he wants a pair. Joel: I do want a pair. Do they have jackets like that? Chad: Oh Jesus. Sahil: Are you guys done? Okay good. My name is Sahil, I'm the founder of AllyO, just wanted to take my 140 characters and thank both Aaron and Peter for having us here. I think we've been in this space for four years, completely illiterate, still about the talent acquisition space, it's great to come here and get to know people, so thank you so much. Joel: By the way, we like our shows to be interactive, if you have questions, shout out something, Chad loves exercise, unlike me, so he'll run out and give you the mike to ask questions if necessary. Chad, you wanna start us off? Chad: So the AI issue, that was shut down, the Amazon algorithm, that was shut down because of bias, right, has that helped? Has it brought awareness or is it a pain in the ass, because now everybody's asking about Amazon, it's like, no we don't wanna do that AI thing because it's biased, Aaron. Aaron: I think Athena tackled this a bit, you know I think it was good that Amazon was transparent, and they admitted it, and they said, “hey this is what happened”, I think it is kind of a cautionary tale, to the question of, "are clients bringing this up?" I think they brought it up in the first. We have a really short attention span news cycle today, so, those ten days afterwards, people brought it up, today, I think if you're on the sourcing and matching side, you care about this stuff, for us, we're really trying to focus on BFOQ kinda very clear criteria as an assistant, so we don't plan that matching game as much, so for us it's not as big of an issue. Chad: Okay Olivia, I mean, clients, are they asking about this whole AI slash Amazon thing, or did it just go away real quick. Olivia: You know there is limited conversation about it, I mean, at KRT our job is to bring these types of articles and updates to our clients, so we really brought it to their attention, and I think there's no such thing as bad press, so as bringing it to light, it starts a conversation, it gets them talking about what happened, what can we do, what should we be thinking about to fix it if we are to go this route. Sahil: I think in my opinion, what we saw, coincidentally just before the news came out I was at a conference where I'd taken a poll asking the audience how many of you had considering an AI solution in the next one year. And the response was six percent. When the interest is so low- Chad: Six percent? Sahil: Six percent was the response. This was a hospitality conference, so take that filter. When the interest is so low, and Amazon comes out and does whatever it does and openly says it, it actually causes everyone to consider that, “hey, if Amazon, which is really the largest staffing company in the world, has been working so much into it, and is open about it, there must be something in it.” I understand the negativity around it, the negativity helps in differentiating vendors who are actually solving it, if it's a problem. It does, it surfaces that. But at the same time I think it, in a weird way, amplifies the hype, and so now if you go and ask, you'll have somewhere like seventeen to eighteen percent of the market is interested in exploring an AI solution in the next twelve months. Chad: What you're looking at, you're looking at major enterprise organizations, right? So, most of them are federal contractors, and they're scared shitless, in most cases, because there are hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions of dollars, that they're getting contracted by the US government, are you building platforms, to be as Athena would say, explainable or transparent, knowing that at the end of the day, the US government could regulate this and say you have to be transparent. Sahil: Yeah, I'll give you examples, amongst like major defense contractors, customers that we have include Walmart, or Allied Universal, G4S, and if you go and apply on their website, or did a year or two ago, you might know this when you apply for a job and it's a defense contractor, you're required to give ten years of employment and residential history and they would include that in the application. Awful. Sahil: What we've seen at a high level is the adoption in AI has been for reasons to improve their candidate experience, more from a conversion standpoint because end of the day they need to hire. I mean, how good is a defense contractor who can't sell the defense. Right, and so, we've seen them adopt it for that reason, from a concerned standpoint, absolutely, when we play mostly in the larger enterprise space, and we're going through all the scrutiny, whether it's your IT security check ins, and whatever it might be sometimes it takes a couple of weeks, sometimes it takes months and with defense contractors, it's much more severe. Sahil: But having said that, at the back, you've got a very core need, it's not like they're saying, "hey if this passes, I will use it." They want this, and they want it to pass. And so they are making sure, that whatever is happening is not only compliant, but it's also moving efficiently to get to that point where it can start creating value. Chad: You guys don't want to weigh in on it? Not really, it's just I don't like that compliant shit. I don't like that compliant shit. Go ahead. Joel: Eric Kostelnik earlier from TextRecruit said there were only about a handful of AI companies in the world. Google, Microsoft, et cetera. Is he right? And if so, are all these AI solutions just using all these other big companies AI to power their stuff, is there any homemade AI out there in our industry, because I think if everyone's just using Google or Amazon, or whatever AI solution that there should be some transparency. Discuss. Chad: Is Eric still in here? Aaron: No, he jetted, so he left. Joel: Are we gonna refute whether he said it or not? Aaron: No he said it, I mean I think that, what's your definition of AI? Joel: This isn't about questioning me, Aaron. This is me asking you questions. And I love that you're trying to dodge the question, but I'm not gonna let you do that. Aaron: I'm not, do you think this whole room would agree with the definition of AI? Chad: Well okay so question, because you use AI right, in defining what you guys do. Aaron: Sort of. Chad: Okay, well I mean if you use it, then that means your company's defining it. Aaron: We actually call it assistive intelligence. Because we're trying to make a very clear separation that the goal of what we do is help assist, and get work done, that's our goal. To the question of what AI is, people talked about this before, the original Dartmouth conference was in 1956, and John McCarthy, they talked about what AI was originally, which was “how do we do work that humans are doing, how do we understand language, how do we understand messaging, how do we do translation.” Aaron: Today AI is a bigger category where that's full machine learning and deep learning, includes things like NLP, partly I always joked that a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet, these companies are doing amazing work, that's changing recruiting, and people honestly sometimes just get too hung up on, “that's not AI.” John Sumser, who we all love, he's been around and his first report on AI said, that he kind of defined AI as having sentience. We're not there. This is not Westworld. Google built Alpha Go, it can play Go really, really well, it can't play checkers. It depends on what you define as real AI. Joel: So AI is not AI is not AI. So Googles doing AI, and you're doing AI, but it's just a little different AI. Aaron: I think Eric's point was there's a few big companies, and look China's even leading the way on just really great ML, and great power that is used in machines to see insights that we have never seen before, and Google's open sourcing some of this stuff, and those big tech companies are clearly leading the way. But, same point, there's companies in our space that are using amazing ML to source to match, there's NLP that's mincing conversations from all of the players in the space, that are ten, fifteen minute conversations, that pass quote, the Turing test. So again, a rose by any other name, would smell as sweet. Joel: Olivia, when a customer says, what's AI, what do you tell them. Olivia: You know I think there's so much noise out in this space, of just partners throwing out the word artificial intelligence, and so I strongly believe that there is, I know there's a lot of my vendors out there, but a lot of the tools are really smart, intelligent, I don't think they are truly doing artificial intelligence if you break down what AI is, but I think they are doing excellent work, and they're providing a ton of value when it comes to machine learning and augmenting, and providing that value, I just think when you go back and really define what AI is, in having that artificial intelligence come into play, it's not truly doing what it should be doing. Chad: So the AI End-to-End Recruiter doesn't that make HR numb when they hear AI, AI, AI, and then you come in- Joel: It just means nothing right. Chad: Yeah and then you come in and you're like “Hey, I've got this End-to-End Recruiter Recruiter, we're using AI.” And they're like, “Bullshit.” So, how do you differentiate yourself, how do you actually prove beyond that. Is it because, is it RPA, or is it beyond that. Sahil: So firstly I feel like when you think about where AI is going and the buzz around it, who's to be blamed for it is the market. Because vendors are searching for AI, so when vendors are searching for AI, sorry, buyers are searching for AI, and when buyers are searching for AI, vendors will use that. That's keywords under caption or whatever. First and foremost. Chad: So you're blaming the buyers? Because that's what they're looking for? Sahil: No, no, I'm blaming the [crosstalk 00:13:18]. Joel: The markets. Sahil: Wherever it might come, but end of the day, the goal of a for profit business is to sell and make a profit. Chad: It's not to lie though. Sahil: So that's point number one. That's point number one, I think point number two, I'll take my definition of the AI the way we think about it, it's not automation only, you need to have a objective which comes down to either the process and what you're trying to improve, and then you need to have the math behind, which automatically learns and maximizes that objective. That's what the human mind does, when you grow up at the age of two you touch the hot stove, you learn that it burns, and over time you learn not do that, that objective is solving for not getting burnt. Sahil: That's AI, we as a company have our NLP framework, we have our own ontology, we have patterns around it, we've taken AI in a very different way and we've patented that specially for the recruiting world. Having said that, I will confess that eighty, eighty five percent of the value to Aaron's point comes from automation, it's not that the industry needs AI, an AI is just a tool there and sadly so it tends to create more value in the presale process than wholesale. It might change later, I'm not saying it won't change, Google's the first company to come and say, “we'll be AI first.” You type in sentence in Gmail there's a one in five chance that it'll complete it for you. Right, it's pretty awesome. That is cool stuff. Sahil: But today, in the recruiting world, AI is being done, I think it's being done by a few companies, it's been advertised by all, but that's because most of the value exists in the automation, not in the AI. Joel: It's commercial time. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligence text based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvas Bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technologies, and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy, and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in twenty minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: It's show time Joel: Should there be standards around AI? Cause I'm sure you guys just grit your teeth when you see companies you know aren't doing AI, but their site is dot AI, they have AI on their website, they're promoting it, I mean should there be a standard with which consumers can tell whether it's real AI or not? So like the old job board association? Sahil: Well I think it is. So the buyer in the market is super smart. They're super smart, I think they gravitate with starting with AI as, “I'm interested in AI, but the sale process, or the selection process is all around what value I'm gonna solve and how I'm gonna track that.” And soon AI just becomes a minor ingredient in that. It just becomes a minor ingredient. Whether you solve that problem with AI or automation or you have humans doing it, if you are solving it efficiently, you are solving it. So as a result I think that standardization could happen, it might get some marketing buzz, but it will not make no difference in practice, because no one is buying a solution saying, “hey, I just want AI,” without knowing what the hell it's gonna do. And even if they bought it, at some point six months down, they'll realize, “hey, it's not doing anything.” And so they'll stop. Chad: Olivia, earlier we saw some McKinsey data that showed fifty percent of jobs are automatable, right?. Tasks versus the actual jobs themselves. What the hell are companies waiting for? I mean if there is tasks that you can actually see, and even Fred showed it very nicely with the O net data right, and he highlighted some of the tasks that can be automated. What the hell are companies waiting for, I mean you're talking to companies, multiple companies every day. What the hell are they waiting for? Olivia: It's change. It's being uncomfortable with change, I mean I study my client's funnel, their [phonetic candidate funnel, so studying how many applications are getting to generate a hire, and a lot of them are Fortune 500, and they're converting literally one to three percent of applications into hires, which is so low. And knowing that information and there are tools out there to help them, to shrink, or grow that percentage or you're looking at that ninety percent of talent that isn't even getting touched, there's never engagement, I mean trying to get them to think about different ways to get ahold of them, I mean it's difficult bringing new technology, adapting to change, going up the ranks talking to leadership, I mean there's so many layers that a company has to think about before even implementing anything like this, so it is pretty difficult, I think it's gonna take awhile to get there. Chad: So Aaron what I'm hearing is Change management is a bitch, how do you get by that, is that like one of the biggest obstacles that you have to actually deal with? Aaron: Change management is a huge issue, especially on the global enterprise. I mean you're in enterprises, these are not one workflow, this is not one recruiting process. You have to first and foremost solve business problems and then you gotta figure out how you're gonna make change. And if you change technology, then you have to also change people and processes, and what the work that gets done, the technology helps enable that. But large organizations that have huge departments, huge recruiting departments, huge hiring neural nets, it's a task. Chad: So from a recruiter’s standpoint, and a recruiter adoption standpoint, who's trying to get recruiter adoption. So the question is why, why isn't this a part of the process methodology already, and it's taken away, just like from a scheduling standpoint, sourcing can be done automatically, there can be QA/QC, scheduling can be done automatically, there can be QA/QC. Why in the hell are we trying to get recruiter adoption? I don't understand. Why don't we, as leaders, actually adopt. Joel: Because you're turning around the Titanic in most cases. It's not easy. Chad: Yeah but if you're taking it off the table for your recruiters and you know it'll make them more effective because they're doing all this admin shit. Aaron: I mean I think that is happening in some companies, I think the large organizations are trying to figure out how do you eat a whale, I mean it's a bite at a time, this is hard work. But in smaller midsize companies I think you can kind of dictate, “hey, all scheduling's gonna now happen through this technology.” And it is happening. We're still, and I mentioned this last night, I feel like, and for those of you who have been around and watched the internet grow, this feels to me I think there's this very large very large shift on how software is going to work for people in the future. That we're going through this transition, that the software is going to be intelligent, it's gonna have automation built into its core. And it feels a lot to me like the web in 2000 or 1998, where it's still so early, in 2000, everyone thought the web was done, or in 2001 it was like, “hey, the webs done.” I think we've had a lot of innovation since then, to me we're in that early stages of a lot of transition. Chad: So you have recruiters? Olivia: Yeah. Chad: So talk to me about that. Olivia: We don't like to have the hard conversation. You have to say yes for things to go your way. Chad: It's not a hard conversation though. Olivia: Then it slides. But that slide is, people think jobs and all the hype is jobs, those are the headlines- Chad: It's a task. You don't have to take the garbage out. Yay, I don't have to take the garbage out. Olivia: If you don't articulate that, in your plan, “here are the tasks for automating, and here's what you're going to do instead.” If you don't have that second part, you can tell them till you're blue in the face their job's not impacted, they're still not gonna believe you. Cause layoffs happen all the time. Somebody had a layoff somewhere. Chad: If you stop taking, if you started having somebody else take out the garbage for them, okay, and they didn't even know they're like, “holy shit, the garbage is taken out.” What's the- Olivia: So I say, “you don't have to take out the garbage”, but if you're taking out the garbage ten times a day, they're going, “hmm, what else am I gonna do?” And if I don't come and say, “now you're gonna mow the lawn, and you're gonna wash the windows." Chad: Now you're gonna do more of the brand ambassador things that we should be doing in the first place, to actually ensure we have a hell of a brand. Olivia: Yeah so now you're gonna do something else, but companies don't articulate that, they don't say, "here's what you're gonna do-" Chad: Is it that hard? Olivia: It's not that hard but it's a hard conversation. Cause they're scared. Joel: Fear, yeah. We're human beings, we're trained to stay away from change. Someone said recently that this whole thing feels a lot like search in the early days. You do searches and the results were sorta kooky, but you knew eventually it'd be worked out, and to me that's to your point of early days, that's kinda how it feels. Is chat bot a dirty word, and I ask that, because it seems like all the chat bot folks are running away from being labeled a chat bot. Am I wrong on that? Is it a dirty word? From the agency, it feels like companies are getting away from that, and I wanna know why. Chad: Well we actually did an interview with Quincy from AMS, and she said when she throws out chat bot in a conversation- Joel: Platform automation. Automation platform. Chad: The company pukes a little bit on themselves, and they're like, "no, we're not a chat bot." So is it that labeling thing that's a problem or is it not a problem? Aaron: I mean first of all, I think Quincy's right, we've always called the concept an assistant. No one ever called Siri a chat thing... We don't do that. Joel: Voice assistant is not a dirty word. Aaron: The whole idea for me of what we're trying to do is, and yeah, it started with chat bot, and to me it was like, “hey there's a website.” Well is SAP a website? I mean come on, it's a lot more than that. And I think the whole idea, if you Google bot, chat bot, and say define chat bot, it will say a computer program designed to have a game of basically talk reply. And I don't think that's what we're trying to do. I think the market has moved past that very quickly. For us, it's a dirty word, but it's also a frame of reference, because people do understand chat bots today, so they understand the concept. So we think of it as fine as a frame, I think we all have to go past that, and the people in this room, we are going past that. Joel: Do you feel like part of it is the risk of commoditization of chat bots? And if you're labeled a chat bot then you become a commodity, so we need to be more than just a chat bot. Is that part of why it's a dirty word? Aaron: To me I don't know that that's the reason, I think that that it focuses on the wrong thing. To the point of buyers aren't trying to buy AI, they're trying to solve recruiting problems, and business problems. No one's ever came and said, "hey I wanna buy a bot." They don't do that. They come in and say, "hey-" Joel: I've heard agencies say people call them and say we need a chat bot. We don't know what a chat bot is, but we know that we need one. Am I wrong on that or? So it is happening. Chad: Olivia, what are you doing to stop this chat bot madness, this chat bot fucking madness. Olivia: Oh, it gets my clients talking which is important, it talks about when they bring it up, what kind of challenge are you trying to solve here. And how can a chat bot help you. So, having these conversations is really important, if they want to call it a chat bot, if they wanna call it a virtual assistant, that's fine with me personally. I think my job is to help and this is with Laura's point earlier being a translator. Every single vendor out there calls their product different names, it's very, very confusing, so if I can help translate what does that mean to them for their business and how can it help them, then I'm doing my job. So if they wanna call it a chat bot, and I can communicate what they're trying to solve, then it's a win. Chad: Okay so, on the AllyO side, is that incredibly hard because what we're saying is that hybridization of platforms and processes, right? So it's like you have a platform that does all of this, and it's really a hybrid of different point solutions. They're all different to Olivia's point, right? They're all different in their message, different... How do you get by that? What's the major... If you're talking to Olivia who is incredibly powerful from the standpoint of being able to touch and educate clients, how do you get past that? Because again, there's a lot of noise, and it's really muddy. Joel: By the way, Olivia is Paradox's [crosstalk 00:26:14], and it's also her name. So just don't get too confused. I was a little bit confused. Sahil: I'll confess, I've only known two Olivia's in my life and I have both on the stage. Joel: Olivia Newton John? Sahil: Don't ask me to pick who I'd prefer. I think, I'll speak a little bit to the previous one and then try to answer to Joel, to your point. My intuition, it's the opposite. Will chat bots commoditize by 2020 or 2021, yes. If we had to put money I'll put it on the yes bucket. But they haven't commoditized yet. What that means is when you say chat bot, you could mean something very different than what you say chat bot. As a result, if I'm doing something very different than what you think, but maybe more aligned with that, then why would I call myself a chat bot. So I don't think it's gotten to the ATSCRM world. But it's really a difference of ten percent, you're talking like eighty, ninety percent difference between products. And so I feel that's the key point. Sahil: To your point on how do you deal with the challenge. If I'm talking with Olivia or her clients, it really all comes down to showing the value that you've created for customers. It's just the case studies. You go into a customer, they had a certain problem that hopefully resonates with who you're talking about, and then you show what you did, and then you show how that improved, and hey, talk with them, or see what they said in Forbes, or see what they said wherever. It comes down to that, and who cares whether it was a chat bot, whether it was an ATS, whether it was Joel and Chad sitting at the back and making it happen. It happened. And if Joel and Chad did it they should be paid for it. Chad: Could be a Chad bot. Joel: You heard it here first. Sahil: So I think the honest truth just lies in- Joel: Snark on demand. Sahil: The honest truth just lies not on the website, it lies not in these presentations here, it just with when you are working with a customer, or folks who are sending that message out, you're not trying to create a ill formed category out there called chat bots because it's not reached that stage, but you're trying to just say, “hey, if you have these categories or problems, this is something that might work.” I'm guessing that's how you guess. Joel: It's commercial time. Sovren: Sovren Parser is the most accurate resume and job order intake technology intake technology in the industry. The more accurate your data, the better decisions you can make. Find out more about our suite of products today by visiting Sovren.com. We provide technology that thinks, communicates, and collaborates, like a human. Sovren. Software so human, you'll wanna take it to dinner. Chad: And that's the end of part one. Check out part two for the rest of the story. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema, thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This had been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Itunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts. So you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors, because their money goes to my college fund, for more, visit chadcheese.com. #TAtech #Paradox #AllyO #KRT #AI #Automation

Lots going on at Talroo these days. So the boys hit-up the HQ to have a chat with CEO Thad Price. A wide variety of topics are discussed, including how they differentiate themselves from Indeed when hiring in Austin, Texas. Enjoy. Disclosure: Talroo paid for our trip and time to help out with a separate initiative. We just weren't going to leave without talking to Thad. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Hello, Austin! Joel: What's up, Austin. Chad: Austin. We've got beer. Joel: Beautiful people here in Austin. Chad: We've got beer. I've got to say, they've got a wonderful assortment of beer right out of the gate. Joel: Local beer. Chad: Local. Shiner Bock. Joel: Local. Thad: And how does it compare to some of the other cities that you've been to as far as the beer culture? Chad: This is ... This is much ... Joel: Shiner's solid. Chad: Yeah, this is much better for sure. Joel: There are other brands in there. Who's the beer guy? Like who's the aficionado of beer? Chad: Nobody. Joel: Nobody. Nobody drinks here at Talroo. It's a drug free environment apparently. Joseph- Joseph: Yeah. Joel: ... what's the best beer in the fridge right now? Chad: How are you not drinking a beer? Joseph: Oh, I like Fireman's Core. Fireman's Core is pretty solid. Thad: Oh, okay. That's in there. Yeah, it's in there. Joel: Fireman's Core. So I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: And we are the Chad & Cheese podcasts if you haven't heard of us before. Chad: HR's most dangerous. Joel: We are more or less a weekly roundup of news, opinion, from the recruiting world. We also do some monthly shows. Talroo is a sponsor of our show called Firing Squad. Chad: Ooh, everybody loves Firing Squad. Joel: It's a bit of a Shark Tank for the recruiting industry. Hopefully guys have tuned into that, if you haven't, you should. Chad: Who doesn't love listening to a startup just get their ass ripped? Joel: So when there's an audience with their CEO at the front, they act very weird. They don't quite know what to do. Is this the first podcast that's ever presented here at the ...? Thad: Yes, it is. Joel: Yeah, it's okay. So they don't know what the hell how to react, so we'll have to loosen them up. So keep drinking and we'll tell more dad jokes and we'll get this going. Joel: So we're joined here today by Thad Price. Fairly newly minted CEO of the organization. Chad: CEO. Joel: You're almost a year now ish. Thad: Yeah, almost a year. Yeah, about 10 months. Joel: Okay. So the last time we spoke to you, you had made the transition from Jobs2Careers to Talroo. Chad: New brand. Joel: How has the new brand gone, better than you thought, about what you thought? Give us a state of Talroo a year later since last time we spoke. Thad: It's been phenomenal. I mean, the move to Talroo from the perspective of what we're driving for customers, how the individual partners see us, it's really changed, right? In so many ways. In a lot of ways, there's a fixation that occurs with having a brand like Jobs2Careers, what products are you building? What products are you building to bring Jobs2Careers to people, right? And so by redefining a brand, we can restart the story, and redefining our brand has been great for us. And more importantly, restarting the story has been really focused on this kind of B2B product and the B2B service that we provide to recruitment professionals. Chad: So tell us a little bit about that, because I mean, starting a new brand and getting into a new segment, entirely, right? Tell us about that journey. First and foremost, what made say we really have to change everything that's going on, and then jumping into that a nice cold water. How'd that feel? Thad: Yeah. Well, at first it was ... whenever you make a decision like this, you have to weigh the risk and benefit, right? And so it was chilly when we really looked at it originally, it was like, okay, we've got a lot of brand equity built into Jobs2Careers. It's a job search engine. There are people that understand the idea of searching for jobs, how do people find jobs effectively? And from our perspective, it was what are we really investing in? And of course, this idea of talent attraction and creating a talent attraction platform that's more efficient at helping employers reach talent was really what drove us to this juncture. And so it's been great, and we continue to drive success for customers. Thad: I think the big change that's happened in the industry in the last few years is that the right talent is out there, it's all around you, and it's up to us to help companies find that talent. And I think that's really important in driving everything that we do here. Joel: And speaking of talent, you guys made a commitment about a year ago to bring on some, I guess I would call them heavy hitters in the recruiting industry. So talk about what that's meant to the business as well as sort of overall headcount and where you're growing and where you're looking at being say a year from now. Thad: Yeah. We brought some amazing talent to the Talroo team, rounding out our executive team. We build our team members internally as well. A lot of investment here for our current team members. A number of our team members have been here over four years, over three years. They continually grow in their different roles. So that's been great for us. Cindy is heading up sales and service for us with years of experience, years of experience with the agencies, relationships,- Joel: Cheap seats. Thad: ... agencies with .... What'd you say? Joel: She's back there in the cheap seats. She kinda watches everybody like she's the mom and makes everyone behaves themselves. Chad: She like snuck in. Thad: So as we engage with recruitment advertising agents, it becomes very important for us to ensure that we're driving their value and then driving the customer's value. So that's been phenomenal for us to be able to provide that success. And of course, Keith's been leading up our Talroo brand and building that brand and doing some really cool stuff like having you guys here today. Joel: The coolest thing you've ever done, right? Obviously. Chad: Super secret meeting people. Super secret meeting. Joel: So what departments have you sort of ramped up? A year from now, what is headcount going to look like and what departments will see the most growth? Thad: Yeah. We probably ramped up ... engineering is where we really invested heavily. So Tony leads our engineering team really focused around data and how to extract value from data. How do we scale our services and infrastructure? So last year, one of the things that was so different for us is we were growing so fast, we really needed to invest in our infrastructure. And so we did that in the last 12 months and that's proven to be very successful for us in so many different ways. Thad: So, it's great to have, to be in a situation where you have to invest in your infrastructure to catch up with demand, and that's exactly what we did last year, and it's been great to be in a situation ... I mean, today we're powering over a billion job searches per month and it all leads to that idea of how do we find the talent wherever they are, and make it more efficient for employers. Chad: That's big, but there's so much noise in this industry, right? How do you differentiate yourself? And coming out with a new brand, I think that makes it a little bit easier because you're not going in as the same old brand and trying to say, "No, we're not that anymore." So I get that, but how do you differentiate yourself now from all that noise that's out there? How do you cut through it? Thad: Yeah. So I like to think of it like this, right? Years ago, there was this idea of ... and we've all heard it so many times, this idea of posting and praying, right? So people would post and pray that you receive the right applicant or the right hire. We like to think of it as post and produce, right? When someone invests with us and they engage in job advertising, our goal is to deliver a hire, right? It may be hard if you're looking for a doctor in Anchorage, that's hard, right? Or in some cases it may be hard if you're looking for a pizza delivery driver in Poughkeepsie, hard markets, right? But we give it a shot and we make sure that everything's working and everything is as efficient as possible. Thad: So, I think the big thing to think about is that for years, job advertising has been this idea of a portal or a destination or brands, I said, a post and pray. So, you post a job on a destination. That is very, very different as it stands today, right? Indeed is the world's largest job search, right? The world's largest job search engine, and when you post, you're there, right? And people, that feels good, right? Joel: But it depends on how much you're paying. But yeah. Thad: Right. That's a good point. Cost is always one of those really interesting things. So in our world it's how do we find the unique audiences wherever they may be, because the idea of finding a job or attracting the right talent is bigger than a single destination or bigger than a single site. And I think that's the value that our platform brings and helps people find and mines those audiences where they may have never looked, right? And think of probably 10 years ago, 20 years, 25 years ago, it was monster job board, you Super Bowl ad, you know that kind of thought process, right? Chad: Oh yeah. Thad: Then you kind of had Indeed. Well, probably in the middle there you had Niche, right? So you had kind of dice and in niche networks. And so today, people feel good that they're posting on a niche site, right? And that it's going to provide a great candidate for them. And so our thought processes is if we could take all of these audiences in one platform and bring a niche approach to talent attraction wherever that actual candidate is, we can provide a lot of value. And that's exactly how we look at Talroo and how we look at this idea of a talent attraction platform and how all the audiences are in one system, and our goal is to target those. Joel: Post and produce, Chad. Chad: Post and produce. Joel: I'll have to remember that one. Question about the branding piece maybe internally. So Jobs2Careers, well known as I guess, a job posting, job board kind of brand, and then moving over to Talroo, I think more of a technology, you mentioned, platform service. How was that handled internally? It's obvious a different sales person who can sell job postings and can sell technology. So, how was that handled here internally and was it difficult? Thad: At the end of the day when customers engage with us, they provide a budget. So, with that level of engagement, that level in investment, they want hires. That's why you invest. Joel: Outcomes. Thad: They want outcomes, right? Chad: Yeah, not clicks, outcomes. Thad: That's right. And in our business, if someone invests $3,000 or $5,000 a month or $10,000 a month, we should be able to provide them that outcome, right? For that level of investment. So whether it's clicks or whether it's cost per application or whatever it may be, there's the budget and the outcome is a hire, right? And I think that's why you see a lot of investment and a lot of companies that are going after this idea of a hire because that becomes very, very interesting and important as well. Thad: So from your point, Joel, it really hasn't changed anything that we do today because it's still an outcome based business, and largely what happens is when customers find value, they end up investing even more. So we'll have customers that start with two or $3,000 a month, and by month six they increase to 10 to $12,000 a month. That happens a lot, right? When you find the right customer and you focus accordingly and you provide great service. Chad: Well, that being said, taking a look at the advertising industry, right? And then the recruiting industry, two entirely different segments. Advertising, you go out and you say, "I want you to target," whether it's Facebook or Google or whatever it is, I don't know where it goes, I don't care where it goes, I just want you to be able to target these types of individuals and provide outcomes, qualified leads, right? Are you finding that it's hard from an education standpoint, to be able to talk to employers because they're going to say, where's my job going? Where's it going? Where can I see it? Where's it at? Versus a, don't worry about that. This is the magic of how the systems work. How do you get past that? Thad: Yeah, good question. So we were chatting about this earlier today. The number one programmatic advertising platform today as Google, Facebook's number two, number three is Amazon. People don't really think of Google, unless you're in the advertising business, Google, Facebook, Amazon as programmatic systems, right? But there programmatic, and in our world, programmatic really just means being efficient, right? Are you efficiently investing my money and are you targeting the right people? Thad: So in the advertising world, what happens is Google has signals, Facebook has signals, and from those signals, people say, "I'm looking to buy a house," and in Keller Williams or other real estate companies say, "I want to advertise to all those people looking to buy a house because I know the audience. I know the audience of these are the people that are looking to buy a house because of signals and everything that's happening behind the scenes." So in our world, we have a billion queries a month. Well, we know the people that are actually looking for a certain type of job. We know people that are looking for retail jobs. We know there are people that are looking for cashier jobs. We know people are looking for transportation jobs. So our goal should be to target to those people that are specific to them. Chad: Is it also frequency though too because you know really how aggressive they're going after it? Thad: Yeah, that's a good point. Frequency is very interesting, it is a very interesting topic. So from our standpoint, the industry is changing. We're seeing the change happen. In a lot of different roles, they've actually created talent attraction roles. So in a lot of talent acquisition and HR departments today, you actually will see talent attraction roles that are being created, and in some cases, those people have a lot of experience in traditional advertising. So is it happening? Could it be happening faster? Yes. But is it happening? Yes, it's happening. And I think that you're going to see more and more of this thought process because our job should be, there's a commitment to produce, there's a commitment to provide outcomes, and our job should be to invest and spend wisely where it makes sense, where we're producing those outcomes. Joel: You mentioned Google, Facebook and Amazon which leads me to my next question. At least two of those made impact in the jobs world in a big way about two, three years ago. Google for Jobs came out, Facebook launched the ability to post jobs on their side as well, and we're even seeing little glimpses of Amazon getting into the job posting game. Talk about how those big Goliath companies have affected your business either for good or bad. Thad: I haven't seen any impact as it stands today. I think Google has created a great opportunity where folks can advertise. I think that the biggest opportunity and kind of the Trojan horse for Google is probably Google Hire, right? If you think about it, that's very unique content, all of these applicant tracking systems they have. I think the last thing I remember seeing is there is, it three million businesses use G Suite? So these are three million people that you don't have to spend marketing dollars to, mostly small businesses, so that's very different. Today, we handle mid market enterprise and the conversations that we have with mid market enterprise is definitely different than what Google is providing. We're watching it, but I think that as I think of Google, Google does everything in scale, at scale, at scale. Like we advertise with Google, we have account representation at Google, but would an enterprise company have account representation at Google? I'm not sure. But I can tell you that we provide account representation and we provide great service. It's one of the things that provides a lot of value to our customers. Thad: So I think that it'll be interesting to see the shift. Facebook is really looking for probably small businesses, right? Their entire business is really built on small businesses. Joel: Trying to a kind of Craigslist. Thad: Exactly. And Craigslist, right? Craigslist is a billion dollars, right? Joel: Billion dollars, yeah. Thad: There was a recent report saying it was a billion and mostly small businesses. Joel: I put it on our show too. Chad: Has anybody seen their site lately, because it's the same as it was like in the 90s. Thad: I mean, they're the smartest of them all, right? 40, 50 people, right? It's pretty amazing. Joel: No investment capital, 50 employees, a billion dollar company. Pretty good. Thad: Yeah, it's pretty good. Chad: Back to Google real quick. We've seen many different job sites or are vendors actually tap into Google for Jobs to be able to really rejuvenate, in some cases, traffic. Have you guys been able to see traffic out of that? Do you work with Google? How does that work? Thad: We work with Google as we advertise our brands in Google. We do not work with Google for Jobs today and one of the reasons why is we think there's a lot of strength in having a unique talent pool that we can provide to employers. So, from our perspective, that talent pool becomes very important for us long term. So where we think there's a lot of opportunity is that people are changing, there's a lot of focus around behavior, people are finding jobs in lots of different ways, and they're finding jobs beyond a site, they are interacting in so many different ways. So we're looking at how do we find and how do we attract talent in other areas. Thad: A lot of companies in the past have been very dependent on sources, and so I think that it's up to us to find out how do we focus on other sources. Joel: So, speaking of some news items, piggybacking on the Craigslist announcement. There's been some news in our industry lately about sort of consolidation, acquisition. You recently probably heard that Jobvite sort of backed up the brinks truck and bought Canvas. You see Workday getting in bed with Beamery with a five million dollar investment. Do you watch these consolidations and acquisitions? Does it impact what you do or not? Or do you have a general sort of commentary on what's going on in the industry with consolidation? Thad: I think you're going to see more, I definitely think so. I think that as you walk the halls of HR tech, there are a lot of point solutions, right? A lot of point solutions that are heavily invested in a lot of ways, and I think that one of the investing philosophies is you either start at the top or you either start at the bottom, and what you're seeing is companies like iCIMS that have gained a lot of traction, raised a lot of money, they are at the bottom of the funnel. And as you look at iCIMS, I think you're going to see a focus around moving up, that's my prediction. As you look at other companies that are at the top of the funnel, I think you may see those companies move down, but I think it's hard otherwise because you either have to be the sourcing product and the sourcing solution or you have to be the compliance and applicant tracking solution. Joel: Do you guys actively look at companies to acquire? I can't think of any acquisitions that you've made in your history. Thad: We haven't made any acquisitions. Joel: Are you looking to make some of those or is that something that you don't typically visit? Thad: As we look at our strategy, our overall strategy, I think it could make sense in the future. Joel: But no announcements you want to make today? Thad: No announcements. Chad: Dammit. Okay. So just the first part of this year, a major player, Indeed, actually kicked Staffing in the nuts and said, "Hey, look, you're no more free. You're going to start paying for stuff." You're reaching out, I would assume, you're reaching out to Staffing. What's your message to Staffing today? It doesn't have to be anti Indeed, that would be my message. But what's your message to Staffing because you know they're looking for ways to get the hell out, they are looking for exit strategies. Thad: Yeah. And to your point, Indeed is a great product. It has provided value to the ecosystem. Chad: I didn't say that but go ahead. Thad: I'm saying that because they're a great product, they provide value to the ecosystem. Any company that provides value to the ecosystem deserves a seat at the table. So, I want to make that clear. From our standpoint, we think that there's a huge opportunity to deliver unique candidates and maybe unearthing these audiences that they're not currently attracting, right? So we think of how staffing firms generally provide value. The first way they provide value is I have to find candidates that the employer hasn't already seen. Without that, why do I need a staffing firm? Right? That's the key. I have to unearth these people. I have to find this opportunity and somebody else will find these candidates, and we provide that, right? We can provide that way for them to reach candidates that they may not have ever seen before because they're spending their time investing in resume databases, let's say, right? And so resume database is what we hear from our customers time and time again is, "I'm seeing the same candidates over and over." So we can provide unique candidates, that provides a lot of value for staffing firms. Thad: The other thing is the idea of providing value around performance, this whole idea of post and produce, right? The ability to just provide a performance based product for them is something that's very different. So I think that becomes a way to provide additional value. Chad: Now, do you feel like everybody needs to move down that road, because not everybody is right now on the performance side of the house? Thad: I think it's based on the customer type. I think that there are customers, mid market customers, enterprise customers, staffing customers, good customers that we do a lot of work with, right? Because there's a whole new movement around customer acquisition and gigs, they understand it. They understand performance, they have goals, they're metrics driven. It's more like customer acquisition. Talent acquisition is more like customer acquisition that's very different. But for small businesses, craigslist is a billion dollars. Is it performance based? It actually is performance based, right? Because people are getting outcomes off of craigslist for $30, $50, $100. Chad: But they won't be paying it again, right? Thad: But they wouldn't be paying for it. I think as you look at this, we try to shoehorn performance based advertising into different customer types, but really, our job is to be a fulfillment engine. And I think if you actually look at some of the international players in job advertising, they understand that. They understand their job is to be a fulfillment engine. Whether it's performance based, it is performance based at the end of the day, right? Just not the delivery mechanism or the method of payment. So I think you're seeing that and you're going to constantly see more movement around that. Thad: The international players that are very, very savvy and understand that they're a fulfillment engine are the ones that are still doing very well. Joel: Let's stick with Indeed for a second, and you have a very unique piece of real estate here in Austin, and a lot of our- Chad: It's gorgeous by the way. Thad: Thank you. Joel: ... listeners won't realize that you could actually throw a rock from your front door and hit Indeed's Austin headquarters. Chad: Joel did. Joel: And to me, that would pose a ton of really interesting employment branding questions because I assume almost anyone here could walk out the door, go to Indeed and get a job because they have experienced at Talroo. I'm sure Indeed has the same situation. I'm sure you guys see them walking around with their, I help people get jobs, tee shirts and it's very aware that you guys are both here. Thad: Sure. Joel: Has that been a recruiting ... like have you had to have a brand separate from their work environment to recruit? Is this a different work environment than theirs? And I guess just how did you guys strategize around how are we different as an employer from the guy who is right across the street and our competitor? Thad: Yeah. We haven't had any recruiting issues or any items like that. I think that- Joel: So no one has said, "Fuck this place," walked out and gone to Indeed? Thad: That's right. We haven't had that- Joel: Okay. Chad: No ideas are been given, okay? Thad: ... or the other way. Joel: He's writing it down, look. Thad: As I look at the faces in the audiences here and I have conversations, we have a very different culture in that we're a small business, growing business, doing good work. And I'm not trying to simplify the message, right? And I think when you have a large company, it's a very different thought process, right? Austin, actually if you go to the airport and you'd fly into the airport, you won't see a franchise in Austin's airport. They're all, in most cases, locally owned Austin businesses. Thad: It's because people in Austin, they believe in the Little Guy, right? They believe in kind of this idea of Austin, and focused on companies, and you'll see success stories like Torchy's Tacos and all these other businesses that have been very successful in Austin. And I like to think culturally, that's where we fit, right? We're the company that's growing, we're investing heavily in our people, we've had a lot of success, we're 100 strong, but we constantly provide a lot of value, and a lot of career opportunities, and everyone can make an impact. When we interview engineers, and we've been able to recruit engineers from large companies like IBM as an example, the number one thing we hear is, "I want to make an impact. I want to make an impact." When you're talking about a billion queries, you can make an impact, right? Every person matters. When you're talking about the number of clients that we have, every person matters so much. And that's so different. Joel: So when can we expect the keep Talroo weird tee shirts? Thad: I think we can have one sent to you maybe for the next show. Joel: Okay, sounds great. Chad: Can I take [crosstalk 00:25:27], medium XX0. Thanks. So industry wise, there's a lot going ... I mean, this is probably one of the most exciting times I believe in our industry. Thad: I would agree. Chad: So with all the startups and with everything that's going on, your vision, where do you see this industry actually going from here? There's so much noise, once again, right? Thad: Yep. Chad: How do we cut through the clutter and say that's where it's going? Thad: Well, the number one thing you hear is automation. Chad: Yes. Thad: Automation becomes so important, right? Our automation that we provide customers is, "Hey, we scale up what works and we scale down what doesn't work for you automatically." Automation becomes very, very important, and they have other things to do. Recruiters should be recruiting not working on tasks that ... Chad: Manual tasks. Thad: Exactly. That should be automated. I think that's where you're going to see a lot of value with AI, right? In those tasks. Recruiting, we always say, "Don't take the human out of human resources," right? You see a lot of focus around AI and chatbots and things like that, you can't take the human out of human resources. And so from a recruiting standpoint, that probably should be, I think, that's where recruiters should spend their time, that human connection. These are the people that you're recruiting that are going to define your future. These people you're recruiting, they're going to define your company's future. Great people grow great companies. If you can't recruit the great people, you can't grow a great company. And I think that as you look at the industry, when you focus on automation and making it easier for people to find great people, you can build some great companies. Chad: So you haven't read Circa 2118 yet, have you? Thad: No. Chad: Peter Weddle's book. Thad: No, I haven't read that. No. Joel: I haven't either. Thad: Yeah, I haven't read that. Chad: Joel doesn't read. Joel: I was curious from what you're saying from a macro level of what's going on in the US economy if you pin it on the global growth scene and where you see opportunities, any chinks in the armor maybe that you're seeing in terms of slowing growth? What sort of just your macro view on the economy in the US as well as outside of that? Chad: That's a big question, literally macro. Joel: I ask questions to produce. Chad: Instead of pray. Joel: Exactly. Thad: So that is a big question. At the macro level, we're headed for softness at some point, right? We're repeating a business cycle. That's just how it goes. Now, I think what will happen in the labor market is there are headwinds in a labor market that we haven't seen before. A great example is the gig economy. There are people working today in the gig economy that would probably have to have a traditional job three years ago. So if the economy, from a labor market perspective as the economy slows, and inventories increase and the economy slows, from a labor market, I think from what I can tell, the labor market is isolated because people are always going to need good people, right? Then you think of the hiring of high volume, right? You think of high volume hire. Thad: Companies like Uber, Lyft and others, Instacart, they're filling a huge void right now. So even if the labor market, let's say that the economy slows, there's less hiring at the retail level, cashier level, well, people still need people and there's a certain type of talent there. I will tell you, we did a little bit of research, we produced a book last year around ... our first published book about high volume hiring, right? And we were thinking about this as we were working with the team on it and we said, "What's really changed?" And I gave a little story of how at my local Home Depot, I walked into my home depot and I said, "How's the automation of checkout going to change how many people Home Depot hires?" Right? I'm like, "Is this really going to change?" Joel: Is it Home Depot that has the automated janitors that sweep the store? Chad: I believe so. Joel: I think so. So they're seeing automation in their stores. Thad: However, they still have to hire people because now what they're doing is they're providing better customer service and they're having to do that because of companies like Amazon, because of the online threat. So whether it's Talroo providing great service to our customers or Home Depot providing great service to our customers, I think what happens is as we focus on the tasks that could be robotic in nature or could be automated, there's more human connection. And whether it's a Home Depot cashier or whether it's a recruiter connecting with talent, I think the human connection is what's so important in all these areas. Joel: So I noticed in your solutions, you have gig economy. What do you guys do and can we expect you to be like a platform to bring employees, gig workers and employers together in the near future? Thad: Yeah. So today what happens is we have a number of relationships with gig economy advertisers, right? And they advertise like a customer acquisition scenario, right? So they're saying, "Okay, I want to find someone looking to drive for Uber." And so they contract with us and we provide them a driver, and at the end of the day, they're looking for that driver to actually start and actually drive for Uber in certain areas. And so what they do is they target different segments. So they're saying, "I'm looking for drivers in San Francisco, I'm looking for drivers in Austin, I'm looking for drivers in Phoenix," let's say, and we drive them people that are looking to drive for Uber. So today, the platform that we provide provides them those drivers and we're finding those drivers and mining those audiences within the Talroo platform to provide value for them. Chad: So, what didn't we ask you today that you'd like to actually push out? Thad: I think you guys are rock solid. Chad: Yep, that's us. Joel: Well, let's end with this. For those listening that don't know much about Talroo that want to learn more about the organization or even you, where would they connect? Thad: They could go to talroo.com. Joel: T-A-L-R-O-O.com. Chad: Give it up. Joel: Thank you, Thad. Thad: Thank you. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad at the Chad and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad & Cheese podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes, you know the expensive shiny gold pair that are extra hard because, well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Talroo #Programmatic #Jobs2Careers #Indeed #Interview #Google #GoogleforJobs #Craigslist

It's another NEXXT EXCLUSIVE! There's only one way to end your time at The Gathering the conference Forbes calls the best "Marketing Conference To Check Out In 2019". You talk to the guy who helped start the whole thing, of course. Here's Ryan Gill! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Chad: Okay, Joel. Quick question. Joel: Yep. Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates or your texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah, I know. I call it our Pavlovian dog reflex to text messaging. Joel: Yeah. That's probably why text messaging has a frickin' 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: Crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which, are all great reasons why the Chad and Cheese Podcast love Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: Love it! Chad: Yeah. That's right. Nexxt, with the double x, not the triple x. Joel: So, if you're in talent acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI, that stands for return on investment, folks, and because this is the Chad and Cheese Podcast, you can try your first Text2Hire campaign for just 25% off. Boom! Chad: How do you get this discount? You're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell them Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You go to chadcheese.com and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long URL to remember. Just go where you know. Chadcheese.com and Nexxt, with two x's. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: My mike is on. Can you hear me? Is everybody in? Joel: There you go. Chad: The movie is about to begin. Joel: I've got to turn my down, because Ryan's going to be like off-the-fucking charts, I love it. Chad: Hot mic. Joel: Okay. Chad: Here we go. Bring it. Joel: This isn't the weekly, this is the Ryan Gills Chad: I might do something with this, I might splice this into the weekly, and then do like, by itself. Joel: So we're just spittin. Chad: We're riffin. Joel: All right, cool. All right guys, so this is Day Three in Banff, Alberta, Canada. Chad: It's fuckin beautiful dude. This shit is amazing. Joel: At the backdrop are the Rocky Mountains in Canada. Chad: With an IPA. Joel: We've got beer in front of us. We've got Bloody Marys. Chad: Grizzly Paul. Joel: Caesars, wings, pita bread and whatever else, so we're having a great time. Chad: And Ryan Gill, the mother fuckin founder and idea guy behind The Gathering. Say Hi. Ryan Gill: Hello everybody. Joel: Most people don't know that listen to us, what The Gathering is. Chad: Not at all. Chad: Which is ridiculous. Joel: Ryan, tell us what it is for someone who doesn't know what in the world The Gathering is. Ryan Gill: Yeah, first of all I've been listening to you guys podcast for a while and there's a lot of content out there and I love the depth of the content, the smarts I get from it. But I think when it comes to podcasts, you gotta like the people and relate to them. So I love your guys podcast and getting to know you guys and flying out here Joel: It's weird how our fans are like us, and maybe that's why. Ryan Gill: That's a great way to segue into The Gathering. I don't believe in metaphysics or putting stuff out there, but we just attract amazing people so that's the first thing. That's very broad, but if you like amazing people, you wanna come to The Gathering. But The Gathering, for those listening, and if anyone's been to South by Southwest, or they know TED Talks, I believe if TED Talks and TEDx, and South by Southwest, had sex and had a baby, it would be The Gathering. I'm not joking. Sometimes TED Talks are too cerebral, and a bit boring, but they're amazing and soulful. And sometimes South by Southwest is too much a party. Even though it's very inspirational, and so I think it's both. You guys, is that a good ... it's cerebral, but- Joel: I explain it as sort of Davos meets South by Southwest. Similar to your description I guess. Chad: Yes, and you're in Banff. I mean, Jesus man, this is picturesque. I mean, you come here- Joel: I didn't know this place existed until six months ago. Chad: You don't want to leave- Joel: I thought it was Branff, and I still kind of do. Ryan Gill: Part of that is because we do not ... This is a public service announcement. We're not inviting Americans to be on the show. I'm just joking, we love you guys. Joel: He's not joking. Chad: But seriously, it's an hour and a half drive. You've gotta be committed to come to something like this, and we saw huge brands. And not just huge brands, but we're talking about high level individuals. VP of Operations from the LA Lakers. Joel: Not just big brands, but movers and shakers at those organizations. Chad: How do you get these guys? Ryan Gill: Yeah, it's a commitment to excellence from Year One. We're in our sixth year. It's those cliches that are true. They really suck, but it's like, take care of people. And so our first year, we begged people to come, and crossed our fingers. I think we said we sold 200 tickets. We didn't. We gave away a hundred and fifty. We sold fifty. But we knew we had something good. And we wanted to tell stories about brands, yes, but more about the leaders behind them. You guys are parents and business people. Business is an art, and it takes sacrifice. Like working long hours, being away from your kids, they're not great things to do, but when you believe in something enough and it makes a difference in the world, it's worth it. And I think business people behind these brands need more attention for the sacrifices they make. So we celebrate the Lakers, but we celebrated Tim Harris, because he's a bold, honest, no bullshit guy. Joel: I think you're hiding a secret, because Tim let it slip that you impressed him so much with your invite. Sort of alluded that there was a video of some sort. So how do you really get people to come to the show? What's the big sell? Ryan Gill: It's direct mail, baby. You think I'm joking. Did you wanna hear the story or not? Okay. This for sure is gonna be the best podcast you've ever had, like most views. I'm just kidding. Maybe it will be. Ryan Gill: So early years, no one knew about us. But everything ... you think about all these things that start, no one knew about them at start. 'Cause you wanna create just unique cult brands, and there's not lots of them. There's tens of millions of brands, there's probably only 500 brands. So we write them all down, we do some research, Google them. And we write them this letter about what I just said, we want to honor brands and lifetime achievement, not just ... People don't just buy from them, they buy into them. They tattoo Harley-Davidson on there, or Red Bull. So we find their email, address to their head office, find their CMO or CEO. We sent one to Dana White, UFC, he was here one year. We send them out. They're so well designed. I'm not joking with direct mail. So well designed. Joel: Were these FedEx deliveries? Ryan Gill: I'm getting to it. Don't jump ahead. Joel: Sorry. Ryan Gill: 'Cause I'm in advertising, we get our best writer to write the thing. If you got it, you're like, "I'm going to read this, it's beautiful." And it's their name, and their logo, and then we put it in an envelope that's handmade. Then we put a wax seal on it. It's black, it's so cultish. Then we put it in FedEx. FedEx is a beautiful thing. Powerful people want to get their FedExs. They're getting contracts people, they're getting subpoenas through FedEx. So if you want to get through, spend the extra $15, or $20, and then make sure what's inside. So they open them, and it's sincere, and they literally have no fucking clue what they just read. Then they email us because they're curious. Joel: Do you tell them what you want, or do you tease them to say- Ryan Gill: No, they say they have to call Gatekeeper or they have to email back Gatekeeper at The Gathering.com. No name. Now we have more power to it though, because when people come here, they're like, "Yeah, it's Cheetos." They might not be the biggest, but I feel something with Cheetos. Joel: They're the biggest in my home. Ryan Gill: Yes, exactly. I can tell, I'm sure. Joel: Ouch. Ryan Gill: I'm just kidding. Joel: Damn. Ryan Gill: Where was I? What were we talking about? Joel: You were talking about the invite. Ryan Gill: The first year, I think we only sent out a hundred. We got 64 emails back. 64% open rate, read rate and respond rate. Joel: Well you had a 100% open rate I bet. Ryan Gill: So they got back to us and we went through them all. We get it down to like 20, 15 or 20. 'Cause they have to be relevant, they need to be making money. What their staff say about them, is a massive ... they're all weighted scores. Staff not liking working there, we've had to phone the biggest brands in the world and say, "No one likes working at your company." Off the list. They don't come to The Gathering. Chad: So these people open these up, right, direct mail. And they're some of the biggest brands, and what Ryan just said was, you can't fucking come. Joel: You're not good enough for our conference. Chad: So what does that ... Oh wait a minute, why can't I come? Joel: It's like the pretty girl who gets denied, and like, "What? No one denies me." Chad: Are you shitting me? Ryan Gill: It's a phone call, and then if they get through that then they have to go through half an hour with Chris, going through our rules. It sounds like an amazing pitch, but we're sincere. And you guys experience the content. So you go back all the way to your very first question. How do you do it, why do you do it? It's amazing content because they're amazing people. And they're curious of this black envelope that shows up. To Oprah Winfrey. So Harriet, her CMO gets it, and she didn't ... we picked Tony Hawk, and Oprah, she didn't score as high as Tony this year on relevancy with people under fifteen, one of our things. Are you really ... to be a real cult brand. And he's been around 30 years. Fifteen year olds still love him and like him. So they all get the envelope, and they get back to us. That's crazy. Joel: Talk about that a real quick, because you had Oprah, Tony Hawk, and Kim Kardashian. Ryan Gill: Gordon Ramsey. Joel: As the three finalists. Ryan Gill: Gordon Ramsey was deep in that too. But Kim got erased early. She's great too, powerful but not around long ... you get extra points, 20, 30 years, the longer you're a legend. And it's not always gonna be celebrities or sports people. I talked with Gordon Ramsey. He's a brand, he's not a chef anymore. He's beyond that. It's hard for them to believe it. Like Tony struggled with that yesterday. [crosstalk 00:10:21] He's much above a billion dollar brand, and he's shocked by it. Joel: He's so humble. How does this year stack up to previous years? Do you feel like you're getting better, do you feel like we're so big, we need to pull back? Are you gonna continue to grow? Someone commented- Ryan Gill: That's a good question. Joel: I overheard someone say, look I remember when it was like 400 people here. You could easily walk the halls. Now you're kind of crammed, and it feels really busy. Are you scared of getting so big that no one comes? You know, the old adage like it's a great place but it's too crowded, I don't go anymore. Ryan Gill: Two things I'm terrified of that. And I'm not terrified. And what I mean by that is, if I think it's shitty, or if it gets too big and it gets out of hand, where you're not connecting, I'll stop it. But I think growth is good too. I love the early years too. They were my favorite years. Year 1 and 2, like I remember the after party was in the pub. Have you guys been to the Waldhaus down there? Joel: No. Ryan Gill: It's out of a movie. It's an 1865 pub, you walk down there. It's called the Waldhaus. Joel: We gotta go. Ryan Gill: We had our first after party there. 'Cause only like 17 people stayed. But I love those beginnings and people think, they wanna grow too fast. So my answer to that is, I promise for posterity it's on here, we won't grow too fast but I wanna grow because more people need to experience it. Joel: For the record, I never want it to be not here. I never want you to move it to Calgary. Ryan Gill: For the record, I hope the Fairmont isn't listening to this, 'cause we're going to major negotiations, so please strike that from the record. This will not weigh on them. We are the prize. Not you. Chad: So that being said, every brand it seemed, talked about their people. Talked about employees. I mean, that was the base of everything in brand. But yet, there's nobody here other than us knuckleheads, that have like employment or HR background. Joel: And Chad and I rarely go to marketing. Ryan Gill: Working Not Working's here as well. It was amazing. Despite what other media companies might say, Working Not Working Gignac's the man. Joel: We were surprised that employment was such a focal point of so many of the presentations being a quote marketing, cult branding kind of conference. Ryan Gill: You think it should be more general? Joel: No, I thought most of the companies would talk about the marketing side of it. The consumer branding, how we built a product that everyone wants to buy, and where ... and not so much, success is built from the inside out, as opposed from the outside in. Ryan Gill: I wrote a book called Fix, with Chris Kneeland my co-founder, and we have a chapter in it about built from the inside out. We studied, as much as I like to have fun and stuff, I am a true geek and I love research and studying, and I pride what we've done here with cult on amazing curiosity of just researching. So the biggest thing that stuck out to us, and we studied them 5 or 6 years before we came out with real understanding of it. But the greatest cult brands, they treat their people so well, that when they go through hard times, guess who stays around? Them. 'Cause they're their first consumer. Joel: Agreed. Which of the presentation stood out to you as really exceptional? 'Cause you're seen a lot of these, which ones really stood out? Ryan Gill: That is super hard. Douglas Atkin kicked the whole thing off. Were you guys here for that? Joel: Yes. Ryan Gill: Yeah, Airbnb ex-CMO. I'm chewing ice.... Chad: You're good. This is the after party. Ryan Gill: Oh, this is good. He was amazing. He set the table. 'Cause I didn't know what he was going to talk about. I gave the opening speech. I said, "Last year was about vulnerability, brand purpose, that kind of stuff. But this year's about intentionality." And then he comes up and talks about that, about like just be specific about what you want your brand to be, and be intentional, so that was my favorite one. I heard I missed ... I think her name's Jennifer. Did you go to the Cheetos one? Chad: No. Ryan Gill: So I heard the Cheetos one. But the great thing is we record all these. And maybe you guys even in your show notes can... Ryan Gill: But I missed Cheetos and I heard it was the best one. That's what I heard, so. Again, you miss shit. Chad: Well that's the hardest part, right? We're definitely gonna need to check these out, because I was in sessions that I loved, but then I heard other sessions were going on at the exact same time. So we're definitely going to have to share ... do you share those videos? Ryan Gill: Yes, so it's mid-April that they come out. Joel: They'll be made available to the public. Ryan Gill: They're highly produced, and then they'll be snack sized. So we'll do the 45 minute thing, and then we'll have 14 clips. Joel: The Dabbs version, all cut up and sexy. Ryan Gill: @Ryangillshares. Follow me. Joel: Let's talk about our session. It started out as, you caught wind of our show, you interviewed us for your thing, you wanted us here. I'm assuming it was something unusual for the people that were here to see recruitment, employment. What was the catalyst for you to say, we need to have this content at the show? And now that we've done it, are you glad you did it? Ryan Gill: You're invited back, we already told you guys, for good. Just for one year, we'll see how next year goes. But you're invited back. The reason why you're here, it goes back, I like honesty. That's a stupid thing to say, of course everyone does, but in the face of when people might not like you, or it's critical feedback, I was raised to like that. That's how you get better. You're in the Army, you need critical feedback, you need to know it's true. Joel: Embrace your critics. Ryan Gill: You get better. Your whole podcast was about that. I know people don't like you. Those are people I like. I mean it, you have a point of view and it's not nice to have people not like you. I just resonated with you guys, I listen to it all the time, and I think your other listeners will agree that because Human Resources is so important, we're all starting to understand that now. People are standing up for themselves. We need honest conversations to make workplace better for everyone. Maybe your podcast will teach people how to operate. I gotta go to the spa. I'm getting my first mani and pedi ever. Don't judge me out there. You're coming back next year. These guys will be back, and we'll curate some stuff. Thanks guys. Thanks for listening everyone. Cheers. High fives are happening. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been The Chad and Cheese podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors, because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Cheetos #TheGathering #Banff #Branding #Airbnb #MarvelStudios #RyanGill #Communo #Nexxt #CultBrands #Marketing

To say this week's episode is a bit disjointed would be an understatement. But hey, we just comment on what we see happening in the world of recruitment. So, here's a taste: - CareerBuilder throws a few logs on the dumpster fire - RUMORS! - IBM uses ethnic slurs - "Uber for EVERYTHING" jumps the shark - Robot baristas - OpenAI withholds "dangerous algo" - Thumbtack offers giggers benefits? - Jobcase brings in the MUTHALOAD! Enjoy, and give our sponsors some love: Sovren, Canvas and JobAdX. There is no show without them. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it works. Complete with breaking news, rash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Here we go. Joel: Let's do this. We just got back from Austin, and boy, are our arms tired. Hi-dy ho, kids, and welcome to Chad and Cheese, HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad "Foosball" Sowash. Joel: On this week's extremely disjointed and random roundup, the dumpster fire at Career Builder rages on. Stop me if you've heard that one before. Robot baristas, Uber for humans- Chad: What? Joel: And the greatest advancement in desk technology ever. Strap an iPad to your head and get geeked. We'll be right back after a word from JobAdX. JobAdX: This is the sound of job search. This is the sound of job search defeat. Job search can be frustrating. Job seekers run into the same irrelevant ads, page after page, before they find a match. When job seekers aren't engaged, conversations are low. Budgets are wasted. Jobs go unfilled. No one wins. But job search doesn't have to be defeating. JobAdX's smart search exchange references 400 data points to select the most targeted jobs and delivers what job seekers really want to premium ad units across our network. JobAdX: Score! JobAdX: That's the sound of JobAdX's relevant results, attracting a qualified candidate and filling your job faster. Find out how to improve your job advertising campaigns and increase candidate attraction and engagement by emailing us at joinusatjobadex.com. JobAdX, today we can save job search. Chad: Yeah, I still think the guy should be saying, "Fuck yeah," instead of score. We need to get that edited. Joel: The first "ugh" sounds a little bit like you, when you get frustrated with me. Ugh. Chad: I think I'm gonna talk to our buddies over at JobAdX and see if they don't mind if I actually cut out "score" and then I'll just say, "Fuck yeah," and then I'll just go ahead and insert that in there. I think it'll be great. It's awesome. Joel: Aren't we gonna see them in Phoenix next week? Chad: Yeah, we are. I think over a few drinks we can probably get that done. Joel: Yeah, get them all lubricated and agree to a totally not safe for work ad. Chad: We just got back from Austin and I can't remember the last time I've done a podcast without looking your ugly mug right beside me. This is interesting. This is pretty refreshing. Joel: I'm going to enjoy a weekend free from Chad Sowash, because I have to turn around and see you again in Phoenix and hope to God, unlike Austin, it doesn't rain in Phoenix with fairly, moderately neutralized cold-ish weather. I say that because we came from Canada, so it did feel warm, but it would have been nice to see a little more sunshine. Chad: Yes. But as in Austin, and thanks to the amazing hospitality from Talroo. We had great opportunity for amazing food. Joel: Franklin's Barbecue. Chad: Yeah, they brought Franklin's Barbecue in. We worked our ass off while we were there. We were playing Foosball, we were racing down the hallways on scooters. Joel: Corn hole. Chad: Ping pong. Joel: I showed you how to hover board. Good god. Chad: If you're not following myself or Joel on Twitter, you need to. Go to Twitter, just ... I mean, I'm the only Chad Sowash on Twitter. Obviously probably the only Joel Cheeseman. Follow us, there's some hilarious fucking videos, I think I might have put them on Linkedin, too, of Joel trying to hover board. That was awesome. That was worth the entire trip. Joel: I don't know how kids can just zoom around on these things. They're like death traps. Chad: It's practice, man. It just takes practice. Joel: Yeah, I guess so. Chad: I gotta say, the Talroo team was awesome, treated us like a couple of podcasting kings. Joel: How many cases of beer did they buy for us? Chad: Yeah, yeah, if you go on Twitter or LinkedIn, probably or Facebook, we might have put it on our Facebook too. Joel: Yeah. Chad: You will see the pile of beer cases ... Joel: Stacks. Stacks. Chad: It was awesome, dude. Yeah, so there's gonna be some great content coming from Thad. Probably next week we're gonna drop an interview with Thad Price. Joel: CEO. Chad: Yep, CEO over at Talroo, and then we've got some super-secret stuff that's gonna happen in the weeks upcoming, and that's all we can say about that. Joel: Gotta wait for it. Get 'em all hot and bothered, baby. Chad: Lube 'em up. Joel: Got some super-secret detention coming up, coming your way. Chad: Oh, shit. Okay, shout outs. Joel: Another shout out to Neuvoo, I still don't know if I pronounced that correctly. Chad: I think it is, yeah. Joel: Some French Canadian thing. Sent me a pair of socks, I think sent you also a pair of socks. Chad: Yes. Joel: And with all the swag I'm getting, I'll never have to buy clothes ever again. Except for maybe pants. I have not gotten a pair of swag pants yet, but I'm sure it's coming. Get me some nice daisy dukes, somebody, for the summer. And I will ... Chad: I hope nobody ever does that. Joel: And I will rock those bitches. Chad: Yeah, so thanks for thinking of us Michael Odell and the team over there at Neuvoo. John Headland, so John fired off a message to me. He watched our, the Gathering panel intro. We did it on video, and he provided some solid feedback on what Chad and Cheese actually means to him. I had said something random ... Joel: What are we, Santa Claus now? What Chad and Cheese means to him? Like, God. Chad: Hey. Joel: They're fans now, right? I love it. Chad: You've gotta allow them. Joel: What we mean to you, that's great. Okay. Chad: We've gotta allow them to bear their soul to us, Joel, come on. Joel: I guess. Chad: But yeah, gave us some great feedback. So thanks, John, appreciate it. Joel: Fantastic. So I got a package from FedEx today. Chad: Oh, nice. Joel: And it had our travel sponsors' swag in it, at least delivery one, Shaker Advertising. For those of you who don't know, they're sponsoring some of our travels and are equipping us with some of the highest tech gadgets on the planet, including trucker hats, new carry-on luggage, polos. Chad: Backpacks. Joel: Backpacks, yeah. They're gonna outfit us like a couple of middle schoolers as we venture around the world. And so my luggage and shirts were delivered today. Chad: Nice. Joel: So not as exciting as the trucker hats, which are stuck in China, I guess, being made. But the luggage is really nice, so Shaker man, thank you guys. The polos are great, I think they're Nikes. I'll be looking great on the green this summer. Much appreciated, big shout out. Chad: Yes. Joel: And by green, I mean Top Golf. Chad: Yes. Traveling with Chad and Cheese. You'll be seeing more videos and all that fun stuff, brought to you by Shaker Recruitment Advertising. Joel: Shaker Recruitment Advertising. Chad: Shaker Recruitment Advertising. Joel: Chicago owned, Chicago based. Chad: Hung Lee, he loved the iCIMS throat punches Indeed line, and he gave us some love on Recruiting Brain Food. So that was pretty awesome, thanks, Hung. Joel: The Brits is like the violent nature of us Americans, so they always love that. They're way too proper to have a headline like iCIMS throat punches Indeed. Chad: Yeah, but they can share that shit, though. Joel: Which by the way, shout out to Indeed, who is right next door to Talroo, which is kind of an interesting dynamic. We went by, gave 'em a big cheers, waved to them, we didn't get past security, of course. But we did see the building and said hi, so shout out to our friends at Indeed. Chad: Yeah, fuck them. Allen Fleur, hey, man. Joel: Such an asshole. Chad: Allen wants more virtual beer toasts, which brings me to we need to do more Demo-pocolypse. We need more Demo-pocolypse. So if you're out there in your company and you want to highlight new features, new platforms, products, whatever it is, and you want to do that via Chad and Cheese Video, then reach out to us. Go to the website, hit the little contact us area, and let's talk about Demo-pocolypse. Joel: Demo-pocolypse. I just made that up, it's great. Shout out to Lily Valentin. There's no E at the end of it, so I don't know if it's Valentin or Valentine. So I'm not sure. Lily Valentin works for Adzuna. Chad: Oh, okay. Joel: Big fan. She says the whole office listens, the company's a big supporter of the show, so Lily and the group at Adzuna, shout out to you guys. Thanks for listening. Chad: Well, you guys, you need to have a listener party that's kind of like a book club. You get together and you bear your soul and you talk about the Chad and Cheese podcast that really moved you. Joel: We're bringing together companies like never before. Chad: That's exactly right. Joel: It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Chad: Yeah. My last shout out to Holland Dombeck and James Ellis, both branding lovers. You are going to love, enjoy some of the Gathering pods we're going to be dropping in the next week. So once again, we were in Banff for about a week or so, probably the best branding, awesome conference, and we're going to have some really cool interviews that we're going to be dropping, so stay tuned. Joel: Did you know Forbes rated the Gathering the number one conference to attend for business professionals? Chad: Well I know why now, because I actually attended. And I have to say that at the end of conferences, I am fucking conferenced out because of talking with people. They're just so much, right? But at this one- Joel: Dealing with me. Chad: Yeah, being with you. This time, I was total, I was fucking fanboy. It was ridiculous how cool it was and the type of content that was brought to stage. We go to great conferences throughout the year in the recruitment industry, but this was something entirely different and new, so it was really cool. Joel: For sure. And we're gonna be spitting out some great content from that show here in the coming weeks. And speaking of the show, shout out to Laten Davison who was a volunteer from the show. He was there for our segment, he became a fan during the segment, wanted to connect on LinkedIn. We were like yeah, sure, dude, and he thought, "Wow, that's really, really cool." College student, just getting a start, nice, Canadian kid. Laten, this shout out's for you, and I will end my shout outs with a company in Japan called Piala, which I'm probably misspelling, but it's spelled P-I-A-L-A. As a non-smoker, I've always complained when I was in the workforce about how much time smokers got extra by smoking. I mean, it's literally like an hour a day- Chad: It is, it is. Joel: That they get not working. So anyway, Piala is giving non-smokers six extra days off for vacation, because they have I guess so many smokers and they want to reward the non-smokers who have been complaining. Apparently there are a lot more smokers in Japan than there are in the U.S., so it's a little more culturally different, but I applaud them for taking a stand for non-smokers and giving them a little extra perk, which they've been deserving for a long time. Joel: And with that ... Chad: Really quick, on the event side, go to chadcheese.com, click on the events link all the way in the upper right, and you're going to see that we're gonna be at TA Tech next week, we're also going to be at TA Tech in Chicago in April, in Lisbon in May, in Austin in September. We have a discount code there for you. We're going to be at SmashFly in June, Transform, then Recfest, which is going to be in London and about 3,000 fucking attendees strong, and Unleash in Paris. So go to chadcheese, click on events, and there's some discounts that are there for you, not to mention it's where we're gonna be, you should be there, too. Joel: We're saving you hundreds on your conference traveling this year. Chad: Easily. Easily. Joel: Love us. Chad: So there's some gossip out there. We got some gossip. Joel: Big gossip. We love gossip. And our sources are pretty solid. Like ... Chad: Oh, they are. Joel: We have a trusted group of anonymous people who trust us to keep their names out of it, but are more than willing to let us know what's going on. So we got some new gossip out of Career Builder this past week. Apparently some more big names in the C-Suite are getting axed. They gotta be running out of C-Suite executives to fire. I don't know, there must be so many, because every month, there's gonna be a firing. So anyway, the gossip is Pete Janson, who was VP of the New Biz Group, was axed. We got Megan Moobach, hopefully I'm saying that right, who was VP of sales, and we got Alex Madison who was a manger of enterprise sales. So the heads keep rolling at Career Builder, and thank you guys, our anonymous sources out there. Hopefully you don't get fired any time soon because we love the info that you're giving us. Joel: Which clearly states that our sources aren't necessarily VPs. They're like in the trenches, and I kind of like that. Chad: No, totally dig that. So it's like adding more logs to the dumpster fire. Joel: I want to add, 'cause we're having a running list of companies that won't talk to us ... Chad: Uh-huh. Joel: Should we add Irena, CEO Career Builder to this list? Chad: Oh, yeah. There's no question. I mean, you reached out to them through PR, right, to be able to see if she would be on a panel or even do an interview with us, and it was a big fucking no, right? Joel: It was a no, but it was a no like oh, she's busy. And we'll send somebody else. So it wasn't like we're not gonna talk to you. But yeah, I think Irena, if you're listening, and obviously the title of this will be like, "Heads Roll at Career Builder" or something, so we know that you guys are listening. Irena, we want to get you on the show, we want to find out what's going on, the Tex Colonel acquisition, what's going on there, what's going on at Career Builder. So if you're out there, Irena, give us some time, come on the show. We'll be nice, we promise. We will be tough as usual. Chad: Tough but fair. I mean, the only opportunity you're going to get to be able to actually get your message out there on this show is to be on the fucking show, so there it is. Joel: Yep, yep. So all those people who won't be on the show ... It's back, baby. Chad: Fuck. Okay. So that should be, I think that was actually IBM for apologizing for using ethnic labels like yellow and mulato in their applicant tracking system. So this goes under the what the actual fuck happened here? IBM apologized Tuesday after one of its recruitment web pages powered by Brass Ring, who they own, gave applicants the option of using racially insensitive terms to identify themselves. The process took job seekers to a dropdown menu that included, among Caucasian, black, and other options, yellow and mulato. Joel: This is almost a joke. I hope somebody in technology copied and pasted a list of nationalities from the 1940s. Chad: Oh, fuck. Joel: And then jokingly copied and pasted it as the new code for the dropdown, 'cause this is totally ridiculous. Like yellow, seriously? Chad: Yes. Joel: Seriously? Mulato? Chad: They said it was copied over from an area of the world where those are used commonly, I'm paraphrasing, but still. This is what happens when you don't give a shit about QA and QC and the process, right? They're a global organization that has downsized considerably over the years and I know the guy who would have been in charge of ensuring that this did not happen. Needless to say, he doesn't work at IBM anymore, but dude. Joel: Pretty sure I know who you're talking about. Chad: Yeah, no, dude, he would have been 100% QA, QC behind this entire fucking thing and he got axed and laid off like over a year ago or something like that. So dude, all I have to say is, what the fuck? Not just to IBM, but you and I were talking about, you know, on the Brass Ring side. Do you not have triggers to be able to say, "Oh, wait a minute, you're a dumbass. Don't do this." Joel: Well, and it's a word of warning to anybody. IBM is a big-ass company with a lot of committees and fail safes, allegedly. It's probably a good time, if you haven't, go check your ATS, go to the dropdown menu for nationality if you ask it or whatever, and make sure that everything is PC and not gonna piss anybody off. Because literally a job seeker recorded this on video and put it on Twitter and totally called them out, and so everybody embedded this video so it's there forever, which is great. But yeah, don't put yourself in a place where somebody like IBM can be embarrassed and really quite offensive, actually. Joel: Yellow is nuts. Chad: If you're a company and you're not doing quarterly audits on the actual process, especially before you do any type of rollout, first off, that's when audits should happen. But still, if you continue to do the audits not just on content, but on process ... Joel: Well, it doesn't help that IBM's brand is kind of crusty and old anyway, right? So now when I apply, I see references from the 1950s of yellow and ... Are you ... Yellow? Was red on there, too? Chad: As we talk about the 1950s, then we're going to slam this podcast into like, 2118 really quick with this new telepresence human Uber thing that you posted that just totally freaked me the fuck out. So where did you find this thing? Joel: Like, I had to check the calendar to make sure it wasn't April Fools. But apparently there's a company that you can hire someone to go to things for you. So a literal person will go somewhere, in this case it's an office. Let's say you're traveling and you want to be at a meeting, maybe an all hands thing or something, and you can't be there. So you hire someone to go for you, and they strap a tablet/iPad to their face. Chad: To their face. Joel: And then your face is on the tablet, so like you're actually there, and you can see the event, or basically you see what they're seeing, and your face is basically replaced on their body. And it looks ... It's almost like slave labor that you strap a tablet to these people and they're walking around and being there for you. I guess it's Uber for humans. But I think we're sliding so far down the wormhole that we're just struggling to find startups and businesses that aren't just totally ridiculous, and this is one of those. Uber for humans. Joel: I'm waiting for this to intersect with Tinder- Chad: Oh, god. Joel: Where you go on multiple dates with multiple people at the same time and other people strapping tablets to their face or maybe it's like you can go on dates but not be on dates and then- Chad: Oh, that's too far. Joel: Someone else dresses up for you and it's like two tablets speaking to each other on a date. Chad: Yeah, but does the person who's wearing the actual iPad face get lucky if it's a good ... I don't understand. See, that just to me doesn't make any sense. Joel: Do they have to have sex with the tablet on? Chad: I would say yes. I mean, I don't know. I think you've gone a little bit too far there, so I'm gonna take a step back. Joel: That's where we're going, dude. We're going so far. We're talking about yellow on a dropdown for nationality and now we're talking about sex between people with iPads on their face. Chad: Yeah, yeah. So probably everybody out there has seen those little robots, those rolling robots who have the iPad attached to the top of it. You see them in commercials and that kind of shit. This is like that next step. I thought it was creepy before, but now they're calling it a chameleon mask and the surrogate humans are actually really the vehicle versus this rolling bot thing. The actual creator in Japan, go figure, said it provides a way to attend events remotely using another person's body. It's surprisingly natural. What? It's surprisingly fucking creepy is what it is. Joel: Yeah. If I start walking around the world and I see people with tablets on their face, I'm gonna lose it. You're gonna start seeing this in school, like college kids are gonna send these people to tests and shit. Fucking absurd. Chad: We should get these guys on Firing Squad. Joel: Yes, oh hell, yes. And it's gotta be some video component to it, 'cause they have to have somebody else's body with their face doing the interview. We have to do TA Tech in Japan, and we'll get these guys to do some employment angle and we'll get them onstage. Chad: We'll talk to Peter about that next week. Joel: Oh, god. It just gets weirder when we come back. But let's take a break, listen to a word from Canvas, and we'll talk some silly automation stuff. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvas bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy, and are laser-focused on recruiters' success. Canvas: Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: Dig it, Canvas. A little teaser, we're scheduling a face-to-face interview with Aman Brar, CEO and founder- Chad: Spoiler. Joel: Of Canvas to get to the bottom of this whole acquisition thing and what's in store for that company as well as text messaging automation AI for his business and the industry as a whole. Chad: Yeah. It's always fun to sit down with the cool cat and have a cool conversation about the industry. And Aman is definitely a cool cat. Joel: Totally cool, and I want to see how many shrimp cocktails at St. Elmo's he can down, because if you've had those, you know they're pretty spicy. Chad: Horseradish extraordinaire. Joel: The automation apocalypse is real. Chad: Yeah, but you know what they won't do? They won't be making St. Elmo's shrimp cocktail, but they will be making coffee. Joel: So we're in Austin and totally freaked out when we saw this. Chad: In the airport, yeah. So last week, we talked about Pepsi, and they're spending b-b-billions to re-org and aggressively automate, right? And that's get rid of fucking humans, right? Now Joel and I go into the Austin airport and we see, guess what? A robot barista. So it is this big machine, really cool looking, and you have this app on your phone, and all you do is go to the app, pick what you want, pay for it right there, and it makes whatever you ordered right in front of you. Joel: Whatever you want, man. Whatever you want. Chad: Whatever you want. Joel: Now you say really big, I'd say it's about the size of a 60s Volkswagen van. Chad: Yeah, one of those love vans. Joel: Yeah. And it had really nice, looked like a big tablet screen, pick your shit, had windows to see, you could see you making your coffee. But this is the future. I could see this for anything. I think food courts could eventually become these screen touch, tell me what you want, here's service, you're good, bye, and you're good. Chad: Yeah, we're already seeing that from McDonald's to an extent, where you're walking up ... Joel: McDonald's is a nightmare. Chad: Right now it is, but when we were in France, and we were on our way to Normandy, we had to have a quick bathroom break and we're familiar with the McDonald's, so we just jumped in there, and they've obviously had them around for forever because it was very fluid for them. Now it takes longer, it's not fast food in Europe. Don't get me wrong. But it seemed fairly fluid. You didn't have somebody there that was like a liaison saying, "Oh, have you used our touch screens?" It was all just happening. And it's been happening there for a while. So yeah, I think right now it is a mess, but it'll be something that is fairly fluid for everybody who's probably not a boomer. Joel: It feels like coffee is specific enough that automating that is pretty easy. Automating chicken nuggets versus Big Mac versus so many menu items ... I will say I like the mobile app for McDonald's where you order on your phone and then you pull up into a designated numbered spot at the restaurant and then you check in, and then five minutes later, your food comes out and you go on your way. I do think that works. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But being in an airport, dealing with a screen of so many items was a total nightmare. Chad: That works for Walmart, too. Like I said before, that's how we grocery shop. We grocery shop on the couch, we fill our cart up, and then we go to Walmart, we open up the trunk, they load it into the trunk, you just sign, and boom, you're gone, right? So this is how Walmart is combating Amazon, and I think this is how some of these different coffee companies and fast food companies are really battling their number one cost, which is overhead. All right, what's next? Joel: We're putting journalists out of work. Open AI, baby. Chad: Open AI but a text generator that's so good, it's considered too dangerous to release. And there are a bunch of people that are pissed off about that, because Open AI is a not-for-profit that's open-sourced and they're not going to release this. They said its new natural language model GPT2 or something like that, it was trained to predict the next word in a sample of 40 gigabits of internal text. The end result was the system generating text that adapts to the style and context of the conditioning text, allowing the user to generate realistic and coherent continuations about a topic of their choosing. Chad: So this is pretty much AI that you gave a topic to and they would create contextual articles, or even just smaller than articles, around this premise. Joel: Yeah, and in many ways, it may not be this software, but at least being tested in terms of journalistic writing and reporting. We sort of joked before the show that this wasn't going to put journalists out of work, but I enlightened you and said a lot of journalism is just regurgitation of press releases. And by the way, most press releases could probably be automated, aside from quotes from the CEO and whatnot. But there's no reason that publishers, newspapers, etc. couldn't use something like this to just spit out news based on press releases that are submitted to a numerous number of sites that are out there already and just make it slightly original. Joel: And by the way, it's also potentially a great SCO tool to just spit out original content that's made by an AI and create tons and tons of pages of original content. That doesn't mean people are going to like it or share it or link to it, but it could obviously create a lot of pages that Google would have to deal with. Chad: Yes, and Watson is doing this already on the sports side of the house, and they've done this with tennis. So they will just feed in information about the score and Watson will go out on the web, obviously pull in data from the individuals who are playing, and they'll create a recap about what happened. So they'll have all the information, and then push it out and it was done by Watson. Joel: Was it Watson recently that did a debate with a professional debater? Chad: I think you're right. I think it has Watson in it, but I don't think it's full Watson. But it's called the Debater Project and it's beaten humans, but I think it just took its first loss from a human. Joel: Yay, humans. Way to go. Chad: Do, humans. Joel: Way to go. I'm going to add to the AI conversation here. I saw a post this week about artwork that was created by AI, and I haven't seen artwork more horrifically creepy and scary as artwork created by this AI. It was sort of like the Fly, where Jeff Goldblum, he just was off, right? He was human kind of sort of but he was a fly, ears were falling off, stuff was melting. And so- Chad: Very Picasso. Joel: Really creepy stuff. So AI has a long way to go to replace artists for dominance, so that's a good bit of news for the artists out there. Chad: So anyway, Open AI, they said they're going to revisit this whole allowing this new open source algorithm to possibly be pushed out later, but they did warn governments they should consider expanding or starting initiatives to monitor the societal impact of AI technologies, especially when it comes to fake news. Because you can actually have an algorithm like this and spit out a ton of fake shit easy. Just automatically give it subjects and make it tainted toward the fake side of things, deniers or whatever the fuck it is, and boom, let it go. And then the machine just does it and obviously, you can plug that into some type of sharing software and then it's just pumping that shit out. Joel: The potential for evil in making that much more efficient goes up exponentially when AI is brought into the mix. Chad: Sons of bitches. Joel: Let's hear from Sovren a bit of AI that is good- Chad: I love the good AI. Joel: ... for humanity and recruiting, and then we'll talk about benefits for contract workers. Chad: Hmm. That sounds fun. Sovren: Sovren AI Matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI Matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them, and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. Sovren: To learn more about Sovren AI Matching, visit sovereign.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N .com. Joel: So topic with the whole gig economy is what are these people going to do for benefits? And it's a very real issue because I know a lot of people who are stuck at their job because benefits. They can't leave because I got kids and I got healthcare and I've been there and you have too, I think. A family of four, you're talking about 500 a month for healthcare, and that's not really great healthcare as it is. It's just making sure that if you get really hurt, you're not really bankrupt. Chad: Yeah, that's what you wanna safeguard against, right? You don't want to have to get sick and then go bankrupt. That's the thing. Joel: Imagine universal healthcare in this country, what would happen to the workplace. How many people would leave? I mean, we talk a lot about the gig economy is overrated and it's not, but if corporate America lost five to 10% of its workforce because those people would now have healthcare, that's going to be a big hit on corporate America. Chad: Yeah, well, I think corporate America needs to think differently about work anyway. I mean, if that did happen, they would evolve. The thing that got me was, about this, was Thumbtack getting out in front of all the other platforms, because how many other platforms are out there now that are gig-type platforms? And if I'm a gig worker, and I fit within the Thumbtack realm of types of jobs, then that's going to ... I'm gonna go there first, and I'm probably going to work that platform much harder than any other platform. So I thought that was smart for them to be able to focus on okay, how do we not only get people to register, but also retain them and get more activity out of them? Joel: So they're sort of tiptoeing into this. They're partnering with somebody to do it. They're only offering it currently for I believe house cleaners in New York and California, which excludes a lot of people on Thumbtack. I don't know if you've used Thumbtack or know about it, but it's all kinds of handy people, do it yourself-ers, repairmen and women, obviously cleaning houses and whatnot is part of that. But what I thought was interesting about the model partially was that when you hire a contract worker, you have the ability to voluntarily give them a tip basically that will go towards their healthcare. So to rethink about when I hire someone to fix my deck or plumbing or whatever if hiring them on a contract basis says, hey, do you want to add five bucks for their healthcare? Do you want to add 10 bucks for their healthcare? That's something that I would probably do. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: So to put it in the hands of the consumers is pretty cool, and I like that idea a lot. Chad: Yeah, we've been using Uber and Lyft a lot lately, and that little tip functionality that Lyft had first, I mean yeah, of course I'm going to give my driver a tip, right? But if you do something like this, would you tip for healthcare? Fuck yeah. I think this is kind of the evolution hopefully that we'll see more platforms start to play with this and adopt it, because it just makes sense, because that is, you're 100% correct, that is the void of why some people don't get into gig work, because of that benefits piece. And if it allows more flexibility, even better work conditions, why not? Joel: Yeah, I agree, and in this case Thumbtack will match if you donate. So it incentivizes donation because you know that okay, I'm going to be able to double this because of Thumbtack. And obviously there's a limit to that, but I think both the platform and the consumer teaming up to provide some healthcare component to the contract worker is great, and I think you could throw in even hey, donations made to your contractor's healthcare are tax deductible. Why not? And then that incentivizes you to give more, because you're deducting it from your taxes. I think that's a really cool system that I hope takes hold. I'd like to see that. Chad: Do you think you could get more gig workers if they had an opportunity to have benefits? Well, fuck yeah, you could. Joel: Sure. Put it in a health savings account. You could potentially have so many contractors that ... I mean, Thumbtack could, I think, negotiate cheaper rates because all their contractors are on a central healthcare system. I'm sure that gets difficult when you look at different states and who's in certain states and whatnot, but it could potentially be done, I guess. Chad: Yep, yep. Joel: All right, moving on to money, money, money. Chad: People got money. Joel: People got big money. Let's start with the least amount of money and work our way up to the crazy money. Chad: Threads. Joel: Threads, well, they're not the least. Sapling is the least. Chad: Oh, little bitty Sapling. Joel: Yeah, Sapling, onboarding company. We don't talk a lot about onboarding, but it is important. Enboarder is one that's doing some cool things out of Australia that I think was recognized recently and/or got money. But yeah, onboarding is a big thing, creating efficiencies and technology and automation around onboarding are cool. I guess Sapling is tackling some of those challenges, so congrats to them. We'll be watching. Threads is next on our list, with 10.5 million. Chad: A cooler platform I would say. Sapling, yes. The onboarding thing is a must and you have to have a good onboarding process and hopefully you have a good onboarding tool, but Threads is more of kind of the cooler platform design to work, to be more inclusive by empowering teams to discuss and make decisions at scale. What the fuck does that mean? It's a messaging platform. Joel: It's a Slack impersonator. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's a slack competitor, basically. Chad: For the work [crosstalk 00:39:08] Joel: We're going to see these things come out of the fucking woodwork, dude. Chad: Yes, we will. Joel: Once Slack goes IPO, man, you're going to see all kinds of competition around that. Chad: Yeah, well think about it just for a ... All of these, we'll hit Landit next, but they all are great acquisition targets if they can execute on their plan from a technology standpoint and revenue generation standpoint. Joel: And what better startup to get money for than one that can be acquired? Crazy. Chad: Makes sense. Joel: We've got Landit, 13 million for the warm and fuzzy soft skills of executive coaching, career advancement. Chad: Blah, blah, blah. Joel: Furthering education, etc. Always boring, but always people will pay for that shit. Sapling by far is the worst name of the three. Threads is kind of cool I guess. I don't really think of corporate messaging or enterprise messaging system when I think of Threads, but yeah, let's go with that. Chad: Sapling's one word though. So that's kind of easy, right? I don't like the connotation of ooh, Sapling, but it is easy, right? So I don't know. Joel: Landit. Landit sounds like a space startup. Landit on the moon. Okay, so the big daddy, 100 million dollar investment. Chad: Million. Joel: Yes, Job Case, I don't think we've had 100 million dollar investment since Scout got it last year. It was actually one of the bigger news stories, but they're never anywhere. Scout is never at a show. Scout never calls us. Scout never is out there. Job case is more so out there. You know a little bit more about them than I do, but they're basically a blue collar job platform marketplace. There's a ton of blue collar workers and Job Case is now going to have 100 million dollars to figure out how to employ those folks. Chad: Yeah, like over 70% of the workforce, right, is on the blue collar skill trade side of things, however you want to categorize them. Yeah, I worked with Fred over a decade ago when he was at Precipio, and I believe this is really what was spawned off of Precipio. Job Case employs about 200 data analysts, scientists, software engineer, and they're really close to MIT. They're actually an affiliate of MIT's computer science and artificial intelligence laboratory. I believe that's probably a nice selling point when you're trying to get 100 million dollars. Joel: And by the way, when you look at the professions that are gonna be harder to automate, plumbing, construction, building shit, those kinds of jobs, although some of that is very automatable, a lot of those things are gonna be really hard to automate. So I think to take a bet on a blue collar sort of marketplace makes a little more sense than some of the others. They have some hot competition obviously with Snag and some of the others that are out there trying to solve this blue collar hourly contract kind of work. But yeah, there could be worse spots for sure. A lot of these folks aren't on LinkedIn. Chad: Well, and that's the thing, is that I think what they're trying to do, and I think this is a hard objective to achieve, is become the LinkedIn for blue collar skills-based workers, just trying to reach out to them and draw them into a platform. Not that they don't have a mobile phone or what have you, it's just do they generally, from a lifestyle standpoint, use these types of platforms to find jobs? Big question. So I think it'd be great to get Fred on he show, so I'm gonna reach out to Fred and see if we can get him on and talk a little bit more about it. Joel: Yeah, we got a lot of companies that have gotten money, whether acquisition or investment, that would be great to get on the show, so yeah, let's get him. Let's get him. And I think that we'll be seeing a lot more from Job Case thanks to this money. I think we'll probably see them more at conferences and events and advertising. Not quite ZipRecruiter exposure, but maybe we'll see much more of them in the future. So our show just tipped the scales at an hour, I know you're going to edit that down, which is great. I think this is a great segue to our last story, which is the greatest invention since maybe plumbing, we just talked about that. Maybe the printing press. Maybe compares to the computer, maybe the car. Chad: Gutenberg is rolling over in his grave right now. Joel: It's called the Nap Desk. A lot of us have probably seen the Seinfeld episode where George has a bed built under his desk, complete with alarm clock shelf, a little magazine rack for reading materials. But a company has finally made this thing commercial, the Nap Desk is a regular desk on top and it's a sweet dream on the bottom, baby. You've got a bed, mattress, pillow, your stuffy that you love to sleep with. Whatever you need, the Nap Desk will provide, and frankly I think it's maybe the greatest invention of all time. Chad: I can't see, and this is just me, I can't see wanting to actually get under my desk where I work and take a nap, 'cause I don't think that I could sleep knowing that I have work to do. I've got to separate myself from my work environment. I don't take a nap in my office. I have a couch in my office. I have a TV in my office. But I don't take a nap in my office. I would need to get the fuck out. Joel: Some of us can't be as mentally strong as me when it comes to the discipline that it takes to nap anywhere, including under your desk or in your office. Hey, it takes mental strength to shut down and take a break. Chad: I'll give you that one. That's awesome. Joel: We out? Chad: We out. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Make sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors, because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Careerbuilder #IBM #Uber #Robots #OpenAI #Thumbtack #Jobcase #Benefits

The boys invaded Banff in Canada last week and not only evaded arrest, but were able to record a damned good weekly show full of news, surprise guests and lots of Canadian strange brew. Enjoy and give our sponsors some love, eh? Sovren, Canvas and JobAdX make us all warm and fuzzy ... even in the Canadian Rockies. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies find talent in the largest minority community in the world – people with disabilities. Sovren: Google, Lever, Entelo, Monster, Jibe. What do these companies and hundreds of others have in common? They all use Sovren technology. Some use our software to help people find the perfect job, while others use our technology to help companies find the perfect candidate. Sovren has been the global leader in recruitment intelligence software since 1996, and we can help improve your hiring process too. We'd love to help you make a perfect match. Visit Sovren.com, S-O-V-R-E-N.com, for a free demo. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinions, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: What's up, boys and girls? We're going to do the weekly Chad and Cheese Podcast slightly differently this week. Chad and I are coming to you on day three. Let's call it the hungover edition of the Gathering in beautiful Banff, Alberta, Canada. Chad: Dude, we're sitting here in the beautiful Rundle Room in Fairmont. If you've ever been to this place- Joel: Think of the Shining. Chad: ... you know exactly what I'm talking about. It is incredibly beautiful. We've got snow-capped mountains- Joel: Here's Johnny. Chad: Dude, you can't beat that shit. This is amazing and [crosstalk 00:01:41]. Joel: It's great. So we're day three. We're a little bit slaphappy. We're on two or three beers at this point. So yeah, we figured- Chad: What the fuck? Joel: ... our audience, our listeners will not care if we don't do the show in a typical fashion. Joel: So let's get to shoutouts. Shoutout to the show the Gathering, cultgathering.com. It's primarily a marketing, branding, cult brand show. They had us on sort of a leap of faith for them to have two HR recruiting guys come on the show. We did a panel with Paul Darcy, CMO at Indeed. Chad: Yeah, Justin. Joel: Founder of Working Not Working- Chad: Yeah, Justin Gignac. Joel: ... a platform for creative folks to find work. Think of it as Upwork for creatives. And Ryan Gill, who is the guy behind the Gathering, has a startup called Communo, was on the panel. Full house. Really engaged audience. It was so exciting to be the recruiting guys at a marketing show. Chad: Yeah, I have to say we are the only ones. So Marvel Studios and Airbnb and all these big keynotes, they had their own videos that were produced for them. Joel: They had their own hype videos. Chad: Their own hype videos. Joel: So Chad and I need a hype video. Chad: We need a hype video, but we were the only ones with walk-in music. Joel: Also the only ones that gave beer out to people because when you're in Canada, you better show up with beer. Chad: Beer, and you always bribe the audience. There's no reason- Joel: It's more like our show is much better if people are drinking and drunk. Particularly if you're drunk, it's really good. Chad: I mean, it's better if we're a little drunk as well. Joel: More shoutouts to Canada. I married one, a Canadian, and I love coming back. She's probably skiing the slopes as we speak. She's enjoying herself. So shoutout to Canada, the city of Banff. Chad: I have to say that Julie ... So my wife, she came along, go figure, because Banff is fucking beautiful, but it's cold as hell and she hates cold. She actually said to me- Joel: It doesn't help when she wears heels with no socks. Chad: And I agree. Joel: Get that girl some heels with socks. Chad: You don't wear heels with socks. But I agree. This is the best conference I've been to in years. It is ridiculous. Joel: Chad morphed into a 13 year old girl at a Justin Bieber concert. Chad: I was a total fanboy. Joel: Assuming Justin Bieber is still cool. Chad: Yes, it's fucking ridiculous. But anyway, we'll talk about this a little bit later in the pod, get a little deeper into it. Let's go into some news. Joel: All right. Short shoutouts. Let's go to news. Chad: Yeah, fuck the shoutouts. I don't have time for that. Joel: Primarily, it was a slow news week. Even though we were traveling, it was a slow news week. Notably this week, some friends of ours, HiringSolved and ZipRecruiter, were recognized by Fast Company magazine. Chad: HiringSolved, number two. Joel: Assuming they still have a magazine, but they are still a great brand. Chad: Yeah, yeah. HiringSolved, number two in the AI category. We're talking about overall AI, right? Joel: Only Nvidia, a big ass public company- Chad: Holy fuck. Joel: ... ranked ahead of them. So that's a huge win for HiringSolved. Chad: Yeah. We'll get to Zip here in a second, but I want to break this down. Joel: Break it down. Chad: We're talking about a crew ... How big is HiringSolved? It's not a huge organization, but they are- Joel: I don't know. If it's over 30 people, I'd be surprised. Chad: It is incredibly focused on one mission, and that is to be able to help recruiters and then also dig that AI into applicant tracking system databases to be able to help recruiters find great fucking talent. It's focused. Joel: Minimally funded, particularly with their peers and Entelo and other sourcing tools. But yeah, for them to be recognized ... And we know Shon, the CEO. We love Jeremy and the whole team over there. Chad: Oh yeah. Jackie. Joel: We've done their show. Full disclosure. But this was a big win for them, and I think that if investors aren't going to start looking at them really hard, I'd be really surprised. I think for those at Entelo, Mya, the other AI, this really ups the game to say, "Get on par with HiringSolved at this point because they've been recognized as a major player in the market." Chad: Yeah. Well, to me, it goes further than that because we keep hearing HR people saying, "What is AI?" Well, Fast Company just said, "Guess what? Nvidia, Hiring-fucking-Solved." I mean, it's fucking simple. So when we're talking about, "There is no AI in recruiting," guess what? There is AI in recruiting. I mean, we'll talk about Zip, but to be number two, it's ridiculous. Joel: Another thing that stood out for me is Fast Company highlighted HiringSolved's sort of voice command system- Chad: Yeah, Ray. Joel: ... as well as their mobile features that they have. I think we've both been talking a little bit about voice and voice assistants and where that's going, and this sort of highlighted that voice is getting recognized as a feasible feature in technology. I think HiringSolved has done a good job, obviously, of adding that to their portfolio. Chad: Yeah. I mean, you have to get into the NLP area, and they're really focusing on ... Again, it's focus. That's one fucking word. They don't have any distractions. They are focused, and I have to give them huge fucking props because it is very hard in this industry in this time with all the noise that's going on to say, "Oh God, our investors want this. Wait a minute, a recruiter said this. Wait, a podcaster said this." They said, "Fuck all of that." Joel: Chad and Cheese said this. Chad: Well, no, I didn't say that because we know what the fuck we're talking about. But they really focused, and I've got to give them props for that. Joel: I think it wasn't really highlighted in the Fast Company article because it's so new is their, I guess, version two of Prophet. Chad: Yep. Joel: Prophet, highly used by probably every recruiter out there. Let's be honest. Every sourcer is using Prophet Chrome extension. It's free now as far as I know. Chad: Prophet 2. Joel: Prophet 2. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Electric boogaloo. I think there's a hundred testers right now. I'm not sure that it's been released to the masses yet. But HiringSolved is doing great things out in little bitty Phoenix, not Silicon Valley. They're doing it in the desert, so kudos to them. We'll be looking at what you're doing in the future for sure. Chad: Yes. This Grizzly IPA is for you. Joel: Unavailable in pretty much everywhere that you're listening. Chad: That's exactly right, unless you're in sunny Banff. Joel: Sunny two below Banff. Chad: So Zip. So Zip. Joel: So Zip. No surprise. In the enterprise category. Chad: Yes. Joel: ZipRecruiter, number nine in terms of most innovative. Slack was also mentioned, but Slack is sort of dancing in the workforce thing. ZipRecruiter's clearly employment focused. Fast Company liked their mobile operations, what they're doing mobilely. We've talked about them ramping up in Israel for their AI staff. They're not fucking around. So Zip, kudos to you. You definitely deserve to be on Fast Company's top 10 innovators in the enterprise category. Chad: Yes, and this says a lot for recruitment tech because we've always said that recruitment tech is behind the curve. I mean, we have, and there are two in the top 10. That's awesome. I mean, that's awesome. Not to mention, I mean, just kudos from a startup standpoint and a money standpoint and an investing standpoint on the focus. Joel: When you think about AI, I mean, robotics, self-driving cars, all these things that are going on in AI, and it's a little bitty recruiting solution that gets recognized as the number two AI innovator by Fast Company. Chad: Yeah, number two. Number nine, I wouldn't say is little bitty because I can't fucking listen to a podcast without hearing ZipRecruiter other than our podcast. Joel: Actually, Fast Company poked fun at the ubiquity of airwaves that ZipRecruiter has. If you've listened to a podcast, any podcast except ours because they don't sponsor us- Chad: Sons of bitches. Joel: Yeah, what's up with that? Yeah, if you've listened to a podcast other than ours, you've heard a ZipRecruiter ad. Chad: I need to take a step back and take a drink. Joel: I'm a little low. Let's take a beer break. Chad: Let's take a beer break. Joel: Let's hear from Canvas, someone who should've been on the most innovative list from Fast Company- Chad: Good call. Joel: ... and we'll be right back with some news out of Beamery and Workday. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas Spot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas: Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser-focused on recruiter success. Canvas: Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Chad: And we're back. Joel: We're back. Chad: We're back. Wait, I'm going on Facebook Live. Joel: Full beers. Chad: Beers and- Joel: Does this microphone make me look fat? No, your belly makes you look fat. Chad: So we're going to talk about freaking Beamery. Workday. What's going on here? Joel: I love this. On the heels on iCIMS acquires TextRecruit, Jobvite backs up the Brinks truck with $200 million and buys a trifecta of companies. Chad: That was fucking ridiculous. Joel: Now we have word that Workday is a, I don't know, special partner relationship and have given some money. The whisper number on the investment was five million, I guess we're saying at this point. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So you see this evolution of the ATS, the talent management solution, becoming more of a marketing platform. I think Workday getting in bed with Beamery is just another step towards all these ATSes, all these companies, need to be more than just 'manage people and let them apply' and compliance. We need our users to be able to actually market to these folks. So they're getting in bed and acquiring and investing in companies like Beamery, Canvas, etc. Chad: This is ridiculous, folks. So much fucking money in this industry, and the next thing ... I mean, we were talking about Canvas last week, weren't we? Canvas, RolePoint, Telemetry getting all rolled up. So, I mean, this is ridiculous, but we're at a branding/marketing event, and I guarantee you none of these motherfuckers know any of those names. Joel: You're probably right. Yeah, they know the Marketos. They know the HubSpots. But more and more as recruiting bleeds into marketing, this is going to happen. I think the Candidate.IDs of the world, those marketing kind of people platforms, if they're not on your radar as an ATS to bring into the fold as a more marketing-centric platform, you're going to be left behind because apparently none of these companies can build it themselves. Workday is a big-ass company and had to get in bed with Beamery to have the solutions that they have. Chad: Yes. Over at Candidate.ID- Joel: Scotch is on you, buddy. Chad: Scotch is on you. Yeah, and so are kilts. We're going to see you. Death Match. Be ready. Joel: You will not take our freedom. I can't wait to see him in Lisbon. I can't wait for Lisbon, man. Chad: I cannot wait. Joel: We got a recruiting robot. Chad: Adam Gordon. Joel: We got a mad Scot. Chad: Adam Gordon, yeah. Joel: Who else do we got for ... We got someone else, don't we? Chad: At Death Match? Joel: At Lisbon in Death Match. Yeah. Chad: Oh yeah. We've got Tengai, the TNG. Joel: Yeah, I mentioned them. We've got somebody else, don't we? Chad: Oh, we've got Opening.io. Joel: Oh yeah. That's them. Chad: Andrea. Joel: Dude, it's going down in Lisbon. It's on in Lisbon. Chad: It's not until May, right? Is it May? It's May. Joel: Yeah. If you're in Europe and you're a startup and you want to bring your shit to the Death Match, you think you've got the juice, bring it. Chad: There you go. Joel: There's got to be a good German company that wants to bring it, or maybe a Russian. Chad: Oh, Wolfgang. Joel: Maybe a Russian company. Somebody. Iceland has to have some sick startup that wants to come on Death Match. Chad: So anybody who doesn't know, I mean, we're going to be Portugal. We're going to be in Lisbon in May, dude, and it's going to fucking kick ass. Joel: And we're going to be in Paris. Chad: We've got Death Match in Portugal. We're in Paris in October for Unleash. That's going to be off the fucking chain. Joel: That's going to be lit. We're going to be in London. Chad: So let's talk about London real quick. Joel: I love London. Chad: We're going to be in London. Joel: Great fish and chips. Chad: We have some things that we're going to keep under the covers right now because we don't want to let that out yet. But yeah, we're going to be at RecFest drinking their beer and enjoying the London skyline, pretty much. Joel: We're going to give Charney a wedgie on stage. I think that's going to be a highlight. Chad: Charney walks around with a fucking wedgie. Joel: That might be true. He's a little tight. He's making diamonds up there. Chad: He's a t-back kind of guy. So last but not least- Joel: He and I are going to find a good Oasis cover band while we're out there, I think. Chad: Oh, you guys are both- Joel: That's what I'm talking about. Chad: Yeah, you're made for each other. Chad: So, Pepsi. Did you hear about this Pepsi thing? Joel: Yeah, that's your lane. Tell us about Pepsi. Chad: Dude, so we keep talking about how automation is going to kill humans. They're not going to kill humans. Well, they could Terminator-wise, but- Joel: I'll be back. Chad: We see Pepsi spending billions of dollars to reorganize. Joel: That's with a B. Chad: With a fucking B, dude. Joel: A fucking B. Chad: So to reorganize, and guess what? Joel: What? Chad: Automation. Robots. Fucking no more people. Fucking guess what? People take sick days. People need benefits, that kind of shit. Pepsi, dude, they're all in, and they say they are aggressively going after automation. Joel: Do they know robots don't drink Pepsi or eat Cheetos? Chad: I don't think they know that. Joel: Just saying. Chad: I don't think they know that, and to be a cult brand, you've got to have people that actually drink your shit. Joel: Yeah, that's important. Chad: Isn't that important? Does it piss people off when you tell them to get the fuck out and that you're going to replace them by robots? Joel: Hell no. If I got fired by Pepsi, I might not drink Pepsi anymore. Chad: It's a possibility. You might go Coke. Joel: I might Coke it up. Chad: Or you might just ... a good water. I don't know. Some shit like that. Joel: I can't stop eating these pretzels. Chad: Well. Okay, so go ahead, Joel. You continue to eat. Good God. Joel: So we'll take a quick pretzel break. Chad: Pretzel break. I'm going to drink some more IPA. Joel: We're going to hear a word from JobAdX, and we'll come back to talk about some more shit to end the show. Chad: I love JobAdX. JobAdX: This is the sound of job search. This is the sound of job search defeat. JobAdX: Ugh. JobAdX: Job search can be frustrating. Job seekers run into the same irrelevant ads, page after page before they find a match. When job seekers aren't engaged, conversions are low. Budgets are wasted. Jobs go unfilled. No one wins. JobAdX: But job search doesn't have to be defeating. JobAdX's smart search exchange references 400 data points to select the most targeted jobs and delivers what job seekers really want to premium ad units across our network. JobAdX: Score. JobAdX: That's the sound of JobAdX's relevant results attracting a qualified candidate and filling your job faster. Find out how to improve your job advertising campaigns and increase candidate attraction and engagement by emailing us at joinus@J-O-B-A-D-X.com. JobAdX: JobAdX. Together, we can save job search. Chad: Where's our server at? Because we need another beer. Tess. Where's Tess at? Joel: [inaudible 00:18:43] final and stuff. Chad: So once again, we are in what Joel would call Brampf. It is Banff. Joel: Were you livecasting there for a second? Chad: Banff. Huh? Joel: Were you livecasting the show? Chad: Yeah, I was. Joel: Was anybody watching? Chad: I don't know, but they might later. Joel: Thank God LinkedIn now has livestreaming. People might actually watch that are recruiters on LinkedIn. Chad: Yeah, so we're going to end the show with some highlights of the Gathering. So we were actually found by Ryan Gill, who is the co-founder kind of like idea guy behind what the Gathering has become. Joel: The heart and soul, I would say, of the event. Chad: Definitely. I mean, yeah. Chris is the execution 'go get shit fucking done' guy. I mean, Chris is awesome, and we have a podcast that we're going to release with him. This is an amazing conference, and what I want to do is just from my standpoint, between you and me, kind of break down some of these speakers. Joel: The highlights, what stood out kind of thing? Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, the first thing that I got right out of the gate was when I go to ... and this is a little thing. You're still wearing yours. When I go to a conference, I always take the name-tag off because it's some cheap-ass fucking paper printed bullshit. Joel: You're not naming any names. Chad: No, I'm not because they all do it. It's a paper printed bullshit kind of thing. Chad: The Colt brand, what they did was they created a music VIP plastic pass with an RFID in it to be able to log who came into what session. I wore that thing. I didn't realize it. The first day, Julie said ... when we were at dinner that night, she was like, "You're still wearing your fucking name badge." And generally as soon as I get it, I put it in my pocket. I pull it out of my pocket just to show them that I'm there, and I put it back in my pocket because it looks fucking horrible. Joel: And everyone knows who you are anyway. Chad: I wouldn't go that far. But still, I think it looks dumb. This, I was like, "It's fucking cool." So what was the coolness factor of this thing? Joel: Oh, it was very high, particularly when you compare it to recruitment, and that's okay. Recruitment is not Lakers, Airbnb, Cheetos- Chad: Avian Awards. Joel: ... Marvel. This was clearly cool just from the fact that really well-known brands that you equate to being cool were here. Joel: I think two of the things that stood out to me was the fact that they allowed us to come and speak is sort of a testament to how marketing is starting to embrace recruiting, HR, the people side of the business. Joel: I guess the second thing I took from this conference aside from the leap of faith with going with a couple of recruitment podcasters was you had almost every brand that got up on stage talked about people, talked about employees, talked about the importance of- Chad: The core. Joel: ... who you are and how brands are built from the inside in as opposed to the outside in, and that started with employees. But to counteract that, when we talked and interviewed a lot of the people who were on stage- Chad: Big names. Joel: ... there was a disconnect between okay, people are number one, but how are you partnering with HR recruiting to make sure that that relationship with marketing and HR and recruiting is strong? There's a total disconnect between HR and marketing almost to the point where marketing looks down on HR. I think HR is a little bit intimidated by marketing. Clearly, HR is not at the table when branding big questions are being asked. Most telling was our interview with the Airbnb- Chad: Douglas. Joel: ... sort of brand guy, and this unfortunately was off-mic. Chad: We'll get it. Joel: He told a story about he, in a conversation with the co-founder and I think CEO currently- Chad: Airbnb. Joel: His comment was, "The brand is toast as soon as you get an HR person or HR department." Chad: As soon you create HR. Yeah. Joel: That is incredibly telling, that the opinion of the C-suite is HR is a brand-killer when I think you and I are on the side of, "People and recruiting is the lifeblood of brand." If you and I can be a little piece of bridge between those two and maybe build that conversation or ignite that conversation, that's a really good thing, and maybe this is step one to do that. Chad: I am committed to go to Tuscany where Douglas Atkin actually- Joel: You really sacrifice. Chad: ... where he lives today because he ejected out of Airbnb to be able to partner with him. Chad: No, but seriously, guys, Joel's right. I mean, the thing that really bothered me the most was that I've always thought a huge problem with employment brand was employment brand. I always believed that the brand itself should carry no matter what. Don't fracture it. If it works, it fucking works. The LA Lakers, Tim Harris, he had a presentation that just nailed it that said that yeah, you don't need an employment brand, for God's sakes. The brand is the brand. Airbnb, Marvel Studios, I mean, big fucking cult brands. Chad: So from our standpoint, I believe next year, our charge is to bring leaders, actually employment brand leaders, to the conversation so that we can start to make these bridges because- Joel: We want to start cross-pollinating marketing people at HR shows, recruiting shows, and more recruiting people at these marketing shows. Chad: If you're not at this brand show- Joel: One thing, if I could interject. The Lakers, Tim Harris, I think the VP of business operations, we really wanted to get him on the show, but he's a busy guy. Chad: He's a little busy. Joel: But he gave a story in his presentation where they give their employees these little business cards that say, "Caught you being a Laker." They give them out to employees, and employees, when they see people out in the public wearing Kobe jerseys or Lakers shirts or hats- Chad: Have an awkward intervention. Joel: They have carte blanche to go up to them and say, "Hey, I'm an employee with the Lakers. I caught you being a Laker. Thanks for being a fan. Here you go." Then on the back of the card are instructions to get two free tickets to a Lakers basketball game. Joel: I know most people listening are not the Lakers. You don't have that sort of fanatical- Chad: Cult brand. Joel: ... following, but is there something in your organization where you can empower employees to go out in public and really reward folks that are carrying the brand or championing it? Because I think that Lakers story was really, really powerful. Chad: If we can kind of figure this out on the HR side ... As we talk to Chris Kneeland who is, I mean, really one of the driving forces behind the Gathering, and we're going to post that podcast as well, there is a huge divide. I mean, we're talking about marketing who has probably tenfold, probably more, the cash to spend versus HR, and we're seeing that the symptom is employer brand. Joel: Well, maybe deeper than that. I asked Chris. I said, "Do you think marketing looks down on HR?" His answer was, "I think everyone looks down on HR." Chad: Doesn't everybody? Yeah. Joel: Until we solve that, it's never going to get better. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Don't give too much up of the podcast. Joel: Well, it's a teaser. You've got to listen to the podcast. Chad: It's a damned good teaser. Chris, probably one of the smartest guys that actually took the stage. Chad: Yeah, so we had Douglas Atkin from Airbnb. Mindy Hamilton from Marvel Studios. Dude, I mean, and they went bankrupt, but yet they still created a brand. Joel: 1996, Marvel was almost done. Chad: They created a brand, dude. Joel: And look at where they are today. Talk about passion employees. Chad: Oh, dude. Joel: You would think it's not going to be hard to get someone to get excited to work for Hulk and Iron Man, but- Chad: Especially now. Joel: Yeah, especially now. Chad: Right now. Yeah. Chad: Tim Harris from the LA Lakers. We had Vans. That was here. Lush. Yeti. And then the thing that got me was sitting back and listening to Tony Hawk because we're talking about a guy who is- Joel: He's our generation. Chad: He's our generation. Joel: I mean, we grew up with Tony Hawk. I'm not a skater. Chad: Yeah, me either. Joel: But he was a Gen X poster boy. Chad: Who is a brand. Chad: Indeed was here, just so that you know. Joel: Yeah, let's talk about Indeed real quick. Chad: Let's do it. Joel: So we unfortunately have to add Indeed to the growing list of companies who won't talk to us on the record. Chad: We had a good off the record conversation. Yeah. Joel: Dice. Our boy at Dice who won't apparently come on the show. We added the Ladders, formerly known as the Ladders. They're not going to come on the show, and we have to add Indeed, in my opinion unfortunately, to the list. Joel: However, Paul D’Arcy, who was here, CMO at Indeed, sat down with us for drinks, meaning non-alcoholic drinks. Was pretty open and transparent and the organization. His comms team won't let us record anything that we do with him. He gave a presentation at the show, which was great. It was more or less data around what employees or candidates are looking for and things like that. They wouldn't let us record his session, which was really ridiculous in my opinion. Now he was on our panel, which they couldn't say, "No, you can't record that," because we're actually on the panel. Chad: That's our panel. Joel: That's our shit. Chad: Yeah, that's our shit. Joel: So you will see and/or hear from Paul in the future. I like Paul, personally. I don't know about you. Chad: Yeah, no. Joel: I think he was very open and honest about what was going on. We sort of drilled him about the latest iCIMS 60% decrease in terms of traffic from their users. Chad: And he was behind it. Joel: He was very sort of honest about that, like, "Hey, I think you guys have covered that a lot. I think the two pane solution that we have with searching for jobs may be sort of skewing the numbers a little bit on that." But he didn't shy away from it. He didn't dodge the question. It's unfortunate that he wasn't willing to have a mic in front of him during that session. Chad: It wasn't his fault. It was a babysitter thing. Joel: Yeah. Apparently, in a side conversation, he had said, "Look, I'm cool with it, but my comms teams doesn't want these idiots to make me say something stupid or make me look bad." Chad: Yeah, risk mitigation. Joel: I understand that as a big company with a lot of shareholders. Hopefully they'll reconsider at some point because I do think it was a great interview. Indeed has a new CEO. We're actually going to be in Austin soon right next door to them. So if you're listening, Indeed, and we know you are, hopefully you'll change your mind. We've been very respectful, I think, to companies in the past when we interview them. We haven't been stupid or idiotic to anyone. Chad: We ask hard questions. That's what we do. Joel: We try to be tough but fair. But yeah, hopefully you'll reconsider and we can talk to Paul or the new CEO in the near future. Chad: Yes, yes, yes. So look for all of those. We have a series of podcasts that are going to be able to drop from the Gathering. One of those is that panel discussion. We had some amazing conversations with Justin from Working Not Working. We had Fiasco Gelato. Joel: James. Chad: Which is big here in Canada. Joel: We've had great interviews. Ryan, the founder. Chris called marketing. Airbnb. We're rolling in the content. We're very blessed. Chad: I'm telling you right now, guys. I really appreciate your listening. Joel: We toast to you, the Chadbots and Cheeseheads of the world. I need another beer, and I'm out. Chad: And I'm out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad the Chad and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. Tristen: The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive, shiny, gold pair that are extra because, well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #TheGathering #Banff #MarvelStudios #Airbnb #Vans #HiringSolved #ZipRecruiter #Pepsi #Beamery #Workday #Marketing

What happens when you put together two meatheads with public school educations and a chief economist with degrees from Yale and Harvard? God help us, we're about to find out. The boys have a nice chat with Josh Wright of iCIMS about the gig economy and the future of work. Enjoy this Nexxt exclusive. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Announcer: This, the Chad and Cheese Podcast, brought to you in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit TATech.org. Chad: Okay, Joel. Quick question. Joel: Yeah? Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates, or your texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah, I know. I call it our Pavlovian dog reflex to text messaging. Joel: Yeah, that's probably why text messaging has a frickin 97% open rate. Crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why the Chad and Cheese Podcast love Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: Love it. Chad: Yup. That's right. Nexxt, with the double X. Not the triple X. Joel: Bow chicka bow wow. So if you're in talent acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI ... That stands for Return on Investment, folks ... and because this is the Chad and Cheese Podcast, you can try your first Text2Hire campaign for just 25% off. Boom. Chad: Wow. Joel: Wow. Chad: So, "How do you get this discount?" You're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell 'em, Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You go to ChadCheese.com and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long URL to remember. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Just go where you know, ChadCheese.com and Nexxt, with two Xs. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: All right, all right, all right. What's up, everybody? The IQ of this show is going to get to all-time highs today. We're talking to Josh Wright, Chief Economist with iCIMS. My man worked at Bloomberg, the Federal Reserve. He's got degrees from Harvard, Yale. Chad: He's got chops. He's got chops, dude. Joel: He's probably very embarrassed to be on this podcast. Josh, welcome to the show. How are you? Josh: It's great to be with you. I make it a policy not to believe any of my own press or hype. Joel: So, what did I miss about you that our audience should know? Josh: Gee, you covered a lot of the highlights. One interesting thing is, before I got into economics, I actually used to work in international peacekeeping missions. Chad: Oh. That's pretty cool. Josh: So, a fun fact about me. Joel: Way to make me feel even worse about myself, Josh. Thanks. Chad: That's awesome. Josh: There's a metaphor in there. You know, putting out fires, dealing with chaos, rapid change. Joel: In my spare time, I save the rhinoceros population of Uganda. Chad: Ran into a burning building, saved children, many children. Josh: Okay, yeah. Chad: No, that's awesome. that's awesome. So Josh, I'm gonna throw this right out to you, right off the bat. iCIMS has a chief economist on staff. Why does iCIMS need a chief economist on staff? We don't really see chief economists really in our industry, so why was it so important for iCIMS to do that? Josh: Well, one thing you're pointing out is that it's a great point of differentiation. It makes us different from other companies. But also, as the company has grown very rapidly in the last five or 10 years, we have accumulated a large amount of data, but they need domain knowledge. They needed an expert to help them interpret that data. We've got a lot of great technologists here, but not people who have spent the amount of time that I have in trying to understand the macro economy and the labor market from a really high level, and can connect the dots from the trends within the industry, and the trends within the clients' activity and their hiring operations to broader trends in the macro economy, the unemployment rate, that kind of stuff. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). We have the BLS for that. Do you work with the BLS? Are you providing BLS data, kind of like gap data that they're really not seeing in the market? Josh: Funny you should ask about that. We actually are in conversation with the BLS about possibly providing them supplementary data, to increase the geographic granularity of some of their reports, or doing some kind of study on ... It could be a running supplement or it could be a one-off study, to help them understand what's going on out there. Because like a lot of areas of the government, the Bureau of Labor and Statistics is under a lot of funding constraints, and they know that they're not likely to see ... Their needs are growing, but they're not likely to see their funds rise commensurate with that. Joel: Right. We know iCIMS as an applicant tracking solution. They're certainly getting into other things. What we're gonna talk about today is your recent survey on the myths and realities of, I guess the gig economy, or the contingent workforce. Why is iCIMS sort of positioned to talk about this as an ATS, and why did you guys pick this topic to cover? Josh: Well, without getting too much into the marketing of it, iCIMS has really been expanding the last couple of years from just an applicant tracking system, to being a whole platform for all things talent acquisition. Hiring an economist was part of that, to take a broader view of what are the needs of organizations that are really large, and have really thorny hiring problems. One of the problems out there is how do you understand your total labor expense, your total labor spend, your total human capital acquisition? And understanding what's going on in the gig economy is a key part of that. Joel: And based on the survey, you guys are gonna get more into providing services for hiring and managing contingent workforces, although you're probably not prepared to talk about that. Josh: Like I said, I've gone about as far as I can go in the marketing for the product road map. I've got some wonderful colleagues that I can point you towards. Joel: Fair enough, Josh. Chad: Cool. Well, let's jump into the report. I mean, we're talking myths versus realities of the gig economy. So, myth number one. Let's have some conversation around this. People usually start taking gigs or contingent work as a short-term solution, to get a foot in the door while they're looking for a full-time job. So, it's not really something they want to do. They're just trying to get their foot in the door. What's the reality behind that? Josh: Well, the reality is that a lot of people prefer contingent work and gigs. They prefer the flexibility of that kind of job, and in fact, a lot of them have been doing it for years. We found that 40% have been doing it for more than five years, in fact. When you look at the other 60%, it breaks up about 20% each for one to three years and three to five years, and less than that. So, there are a lot of experienced workers out there who actually value having this kind of arrangement, and it works to their advantage. Josh: We kind of think of the gig economy as being it's all about Uber, and people getting jobs from apps. And a lot of them are blue collar, maybe they're down on their luck, or they've got some special need that they're trying to fill in the short term. But actually, we found that there are a lot of people for whom this is a viable career option. Chad: Well, I found it interesting that only 15% said they wanted to land a full-time job. Josh: That's right. Chad: They weren't even looking for a full-time job. Josh: No. Now, it's important to remember that there's a lot of fragmentation in this market. You know, these people, there's a lot of diversity in the people who take gig work. In the world of finance, we call this sometimes a barbell structure. You've got people at the top end of the gig economy, and people at the lower end of the gig economy. So, there are these advantaged individuals who've got the knowledge and they've got the skills. They've got the networks and the experience to be able to basically, maybe not write their own check, but arrange their work life around their overall life. Those are the people at the top end. Chad: Right. Josh: They're the ones who are not looking for any change. They're saying, "This is suiting me. Great." But then there are the people at the lower end, where they are kind of holding on by their fingertips, and it is more of a precarious position. That's one of the things that gets glossed over in the popular media discussions. Initially, there was a lot of hype about, "The gig economy's so great. Silicon Valley is ... " You know, "It's another big win for revolutionizing our lifestyle." And now we're in the backlash period, where you've got ... The California Supreme Court has come out with a case talking about worker's rights. People are concerned about a whole lot of things, at some of these companies. Josh: But what's getting obscured there is that there's this other, underlying trend, this underlying portion of the labor market, where things have been humming right along. It has been doing that for a while, actually. For some of these people, it's a very stable situation. They've been pursuing it, like I said, for more than five years. Chad: Okay. Okay. Joel: Let's dig in a little bit to the segmentation of this. You talk about educated females in their mid-career being really apt to be in the gig economy. You talk about millennials in the survey. Break down sort of ages and geographic regions, maybe. Break this down into, who exactly is the gig economy? Josh: Yeah. The gig economy tends to be either older workers, who in some sense have made it, have arrived. They may not have some kind of golden parachute situation, but they're able to set themselves up for something that they like. Those people tend to be mid-40s or older. And then you've got the younger people, who are in their 20s and even younger, and they're just trying to find something to get by on, basically. Those older people tend to be knowledge workers. They're doing white collar kind of work that tends to be creative. They're doing technology and professional services. A pretty wide variety of work, but distinctly white collar. And then you've got the people who are doing transportation and blue collar kind of work. Joel: So, would it be your contention that women in their mid-career are high because of pregnancy, or would it be something else? Josh: It's not so much people in their 30s. That's there, but it's more like women and men who are further along in their career. Kind of past that hump stage, you might say. Yeah, it's more middle-aged and up. Joel: Okay. Because I would have guessed, women get pregnant, they look for alternative work options, and join the gig economy. But you're saying that's not the case. Chad: Joel is all about stereotypes. Let's just throw that out there real quick. Go ahead. Josh: First of all, it happens, but second of all, this is the beauty of research. This is why we conduct this kind of study, is to find out whether or not our preconceptions are right or not. And here, we find that the story is a little bit more complex. The other thing is, we have to think carefully about the different kinds of arrangements. So contingent work and gig work, it's not only a great variety of different people and a great variety of different kinds of occupations, but also a great variety of different kinds of contract structures. Josh: If you look at the Bureau of Labor and Statistics ... Without boring you all with too many definitions here ... they break it out into independent workers, on-call workers, temps, subcontractors. And you find a lot of variety within that. So the independent contractors, the people who are kind of masters of their own destiny, those actually tend to be men. So, overall you've got women in this space, but they are not necessarily in the positions that are as privileged and as advantaged as these middle-aged and older men. Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Joel: I also noticed that the highest number of gig workers tend to have some college. Without having stereotypical comments to follow that, why would most of the workers be some college as opposed to none, or Bachelor's degree or higher? Josh: Well, when you add it all up, if you've got some college or more ... You know, you've completed college, or you get an advanced degree ... that's over two-thirds of the people who have some kind of gig work as their primary job. That's 76%, versus 60% for the U.S. population as a whole. So these people are more educated, and that correlates with doing the knowledge work. You've gotta have the education. You've gotta have the knowledge, in order to be able to access that kind of work. Joel: But with some college, are they dropping out to do gig work? Josh: Some of the younger people might. A lot of the younger people are actually still enrolled in school. So, maybe they dropped out. Maybe they're switching over to an Associate's degree. Maybe they're getting some kind of vocational certification. But, they're up-skilling themselves. Chad: The contingent work is another myth. Contingent work is stressful, because gig workers never know whether their next paycheck is coming from. Right? So, what is the big reason why people actually choose contingent work? The myth says it's stressful, because you don't know where your next paycheck's coming from. But what's the reality there? Josh: Well, the reality, in terms of the upside, is that it's very clear that flexibility was the number one attribute. We asked people, you know, "What's your top reason for taking a gig job?" And more flexible work hours was cited by 64% of respondents. For every other answer that was given to them as an option, it was less than 30%. So, by more than two times the amount ... You know, the two times higher rate ... flexibility of work hours was cited as the upside. Josh: On the downside, yes, there were people who were concerned about less job stability, but that was still less than half, and actually 60%, a little bit more than half, they focused more on the issue of benefits. So, a lack of ... You don't necessarily get the retirement benefits. You don't necessarily get the healthcare benefits. Unemployment, disability, vacation, paid sick leave, all the rest. Joel: Are those issues changing, and do you see government taking a greater role in helping contingent workers with those issues like healthcare? Josh: Well, I think we ... For the federal government, I don't see a lot happening in D.C. right now in these areas. We've got gridlock over the argument of what should be happening with healthcare, who should provide that. We do have this theory that maybe the states will be laboratories, and to some extent that's happening. But that's very much up in the air, what the government is going to do. I think for employers as well as for workers, the question is, what are you going to work out as an arrangement, purely within the private sector? Josh: And I think if you're going out there and you're trying to get the top talent, one of the things that you can do, in looking at this report, is think about, "Okay. Some people really like these arrangements. Who are those people, and how do they compare to the people I'm trying to bring into my workforce? Who are the people that I want to hire? If I can replicate some of these aspects, because flexibility is one of the top ones. If I can provide more flexibility to the workers to whom that appeals, and the workers that I care about, then that's gonna be a win. That's an extra value proposition. That gives me a competitive edge." Chad: Now, is this showing that the workforce is really evolving though, and they're really focusing on that flexibility option? And that if companies would get out of the time clock punching 1950s, that they might actually look more toward FTE positions, as opposed to these more flexible jobs that they're in now, these contingent jobs that they're in now? Josh: Well, I don't think it's changing in terms of what people want. I think most people tend to want to work to live, rather than live to work, although you do have those high-end grinders and achievers who are gonna always be striving. The question is, what are the norms in our workplaces, and what's the relative power of the workers, in order to kind of get better arrangements for themselves? When you look back at the late '90s, we had a very tight labor market. You had the tech boom. And suddenly you had all these young people graduating with degrees in computer science, and developing coding skills through other means. They were in the position to demand more from employers. That had to do with money, but it also had to do with the things that just made their life at work a little bit better. That's where business casual comes from, and how it spread to many different workplaces, outside of just the tech industry. Josh: I think one of the things that we're going to see now, in this tight labor market ... I mean, the continued strains and pulls towards people with hard programming, and tech and data science skills, is ... They're gonna want to accommodate those workers with more flexible work schedules. The question is how much that diffuses out to affect the rest of us, those of us who don't have as strong of a bargaining position, kind of one by one. Joel: Josh, I've talked about on the show how I think a downturn in the economy will be a good thing for sites like Upwork or Uber, sites that are platforms to have gig work. Would you agree with that contention? If another great recession happens, are we gonna see a flood of people flock to the contingent workforce, and assuming that we do, will they stay there when the economy gets better? Josh: I'd say yes to the first question, and probably not to the second question. The reality is that we don't have ... Despite the great work that we've done in this survey, we don't have a complete picture of how the gig economy works. But the current belief amongst the experts in the field, is that this is more cyclical than we believed just a couple of years ago. What we do know ... We've got a long history of this ... is that part-time work is a very cyclical phenomenon. By which I mean, if we go into a recession, then yes. Employers don't hire people full-time as much, because they're more uncertain about the outlook, so they hire them for just part-time positions. Following that logic, they're very likely to go out and hire people more on a contingent basis, in addition to a part-time basis, when we get into a recession and in the aftermath. Josh: However, because we don't have a complete time series, we don't have a full history of data looking at just contingent work, we don't actually have the proof to support that. That's why it's important for places like iCIMS to go out and fund studies, promote the conversation, so that we can all learn more about this issue, and keep it top of mind as we go through the economic cycle. And whatever else the years may bring, we know to keep our eye on this. Because you're right. It's going to be very interesting, what happens when we have a slowdown, if and when we have a slowdown, how employers will respond. Chad: Let's take a look at the economy now. I mean, yeah. When it slows down, I can definitely see it's much easier, because you can pay as you go. But right now, it's hard to get people in the first place. It's hard to get people to actually finish the projects you have going on. Doesn't it make sense for employers now, to be able to change their scheme, and stop looking for FTEs? Because they're not out there, number one. And number two, there is talent that's out there. Finding a marketing professional, I know I can go to Communo. It's a marketplace for marketing individuals. I can get my projects done. And from your research, it actually shows that many of these positions are indefinite contracts, anyway. So I can have them on pretty much as an FTE, without the benefits, and they can still be on indefinitely. Josh: Yeah. In a tight labor market, it's all about getting creative. You know, can you find the pockets of talent that other people haven't found, and can you appeal to them? Chad: Yeah. Josh: So, I definitely think that it makes sense to go to all kinds of alternative sources. Whether they are different websites, whether they are different apps, and other kinds of providers that specialize in different fields, or specialize just in contract labor in general, even if it's not within a specific profession or domain. Those are definitely important tools. Josh: Also, taking a look at different populations. The reality is that there continue to be a lot of disparities amongst different social groups in our society. It's very clear. You just take a look at the unemployment rate. There was a story in the Wall Street Journal, just a week ago, talking about how this tight labor market has led to lower unemployment for people with disabilities. They had a couple of really interesting stories about people on the autism spectrum. Who, employers were so desperate, they had found ways to accommodate the needs of this population, and were able to exploit the strengths of this population. Joel: Josh, I'm gonna try to get sort of geeky here on you a bit. I know you're an economist, so I think I can ask it in a way that you'll have a good answer. As the world becomes a single marketplace, right? Some are like Upwork. You have developers from all over the world, competing for work all over the world. What do you think that does to the standard of living, for one, in the third order developing countries, as well as the standard of living for developed countries like our own? And particularly in our country, will people gradually have to take less money, because the number of people who do that job worldwide are accessible? Or do you think the lower economies come up to our standard of living? Josh: It's a great question, and in many ways it's one of the great questions of our time. Chad: Yes. Josh: Yes. Way to go. Score. One of the things that we have to think about here is, yes. There's a simple logic of, when you've got more people in the talent pool, then you're going to have more competition. The question is, how do you respond to that? Really, it's about differentiation. I don't think it's a question of simply accepting passively some fate of, there's a larger labor pool, and now you're going to get paid less. The question is, what are you going to do in that environment to differentiate yourself? That's you as an individual worker, and that's us as a society. Josh: It's not impossible to see the writing on the wall all the time. You can't know it all the time, but you certainly can see some trends, and make some educated guesses. And when you see where the trend lines head, what are you going to do to support the people around you, in developing what I refer to as labor market literacy? You know, you don't want to be in a position of trying to compete with garment workers in Bangladesh. That's not a great career move right now, to take an extreme example. Josh: Moving into the area of data science, whether or not you're actually a data scientist, that's not necessarily the game, because that might not be your greatest strong suit. But if you're really good at ... Well, I'll give you a great example, my sister. She's got a degree in photography and fine arts. Doesn't sound very technical, but she figured out that if she just added a little bit of cognitive psychology, and a little bit of tech savvy, and a little bit of data science ... And she's certainly not a data scientist, by any stretch of the imagination ... But with combining those skills, she's been able to reinvent herself with a great career in user experience design, the way humans interact with visual information, and the way they interact with computers. So, that's a really smart move. Taking the strength that she has in creativity and the arts, and the way humans respond to different kinds of visuals, and combining it with just enough technical know-how to really engage with where the economy is headed. Chad: So, let's take that question, and kind of compound it a little bit. Andela is an organization that's funded by Al Gore's foundation, and they're actually training developers in Africa right now, because of the lack of developers that we have here. They're actually paying them a much larger wage than normal in that population, which is great, obviously, for that community. But once again, once the cycle turns, we have more competition that we've actually created, outside the United States. Why aren't we taking these same types of programs and actually instituting them into our current workforce, to be able to skill them up, to ensure that we do have the labor market literacy that we need? Josh: It's a really great question. The reality is that we ... Our best understanding is that the private sector is starting to step up and do that. I continue to hear about anecdotal evidence, to suggest that employers are reaching to find those alternative pools of labor, provide extra training to up-skill the workers, and create the workforce that they need. That's a very positive development. And to the extent that the government is not stepping up to do this kind of work, it's really important that the private sector do that. And if you want to compete for talent, and if you want to get your products and your services out to market faster than the other person, then it's really important to think about that as part of your strategy, for not only how you manage people and manage talent, but how you actually develop what you're offering to your customers and clients. Chad: Now, is this really on the government to do, though? I mean, because the people are actually going to work for these organizations in the first place, and the organizations are making the money off the people's backs. So why do we always look to the government to actually solve this, when in most cases, corporate America knows what they need? They know the skills, and they know how to actually train those skills. Why are we always looking to give them a handout? Josh: Well, we're getting a little bit abreast of economics here, and into political science. It's a question for us as citizens, whether or not we want the government to provide that. As an economist, I can tell you about what the market forces tend towards, and what that's gonna drive, and also something about what the role of the government could be. But ultimately, it's a kind of ethical, political choice, what we want to demand as voters. Joel: Automation is a topic on our show all the time. Who's gonna be out, who's gonna be replaced by robots and bots, et cetera. I'm curious. In the gig economy, are there any gigs that are safe from being automated? Or, are there any current full-time jobs that can't be gig jobs or contingent jobs? Teachers, doctors, et cetera, do you see those safe from becoming gigs? Josh: Okay. For the first question, what can and can't be automated, I feel like that is a trap. Because someone's gonna play this clip back in 20 years and say, "We figured it out." Chad: It's all a trap. Josh: You know, my basic thought is to not underestimate human ingenuity, and not underestimating human ingenuity means not underestimating what the robots that we build will someday be able to do. But we do have a good sense of what kinds of things are tough for robots. Manual dexterity is really tough for them. Creativity and empathy are really tough for them. We do see the rise of chat bots, and all kinds of actual physical robots, who are doing increasingly sophisticated things. But those are areas where you can think about, there's a human advantage. Josh: In terms of what can't be made contingent, in principle, there's nothing that couldn't be made contingent. I think the reality though, is that there's a lot of value in having a long-term relationship. Whether you are a teacher, like you mentioned, who needs to have some kind of continuity with a student, in order to judge the progress and figure out, "What does this person need to achieve their learning goals?" Or for an organization. You can get by with a lot of people on the periphery of an organization, potentially, but you're always going to need some people in the core, who have some institutional memory, who've got the relationships, and know how to drive the change, rather than just contract out for some of the tasks. Chad: Well, I'd like to point to one of the parts of your research that actually demonstrates that Gen X ... Go figure ... are the ones who are doing all the goddamn work. 35 hours a week, Gen X. Boomers are obviously on their way out. They're doing just as much hours-wise as the millennials. Lazy asses. And Gen Z's, you're looking at 23 hours. I mean, they're really just getting started. They should be doing more, though. Is there any more depth that you can provide us, when it comes to really just looking at the different segments of the population from an age standpoint? And what should we see, especially with the millennials being such a large population, what do you think we'll see in the gig era? Will they grow, or will they just turn into boomers? Joel: I'm guessing Josh is a millennial. Am I right on that? Josh: Yeah. I'm cusp-y, just in context. Chad: He's cusp-y. Josh: I think there's a lot of power in numbers, and as the millennials move through the workforce, they're going to change it. They've come of age with different expectations from prior generations. We might not see the economy itself get gig-ified, or the workforce get gig-ified, but I think that the full-time jobs that millennials want will be more gig-like. And so, it's more like the full-time positions are going to end up looking a little bit more like gigs, than actually as much of the work being transformed into gigs. That's my current view. Joel: This was a pretty extensive survey. You guys surveyed 1,000 Americans who held at least one contingent job as their primary or secondary income, from also the companies that you guys work with. What stood out to you, or what surprised you most from the survey that you did? Josh: That is a tough question, because there was a lot that was surprising in here. I think probably just how strong that top end of the market was. 69% to 81%, depending on how you measure it, focused in knowledge work, and how many of these contracts were open-ended. You know, 59% had totally open-ended contracts. 69% were six months or longer. So, that means less than a third were working on contracts that were less than six months. And for me, one of the big takeaways of this report is that there's an alternative brass ring out there. I mentioned this idea of labor market literacy before, and I don't think that people realize that this is something to aim for. It's not just about the corner office. It's about the home office, too. Josh: And I think if more people understood that that was a possible and attractive option, they could make better decisions, to set themselves up for that someday. It's not for everyone, but it's gonna be out there for some people, and probably more people than we realize. And the takeaway is that you've got to invest in your skills and your network, and take a long range, long-term view on how that's going to set you up for it, if you are attracted to that kind of lifestyle and that kind of work/life situation. What are the ingredients, and how are you going to acquire them over time? Josh: Because, as the old saying goes, I may be cusp-y towards the millennial, but I still remember the old ad that said, "You, too, can be a winner at the game of life." And if you want to win at this particular game, this survey tells you something about what it's going to take. You need to have the people who are going to be your sources of projects in the future, because so many of these jobs are found through referrals. We found that it was usually three or more contracts for jobs being held at a time, and you've gotta have someone else in the hopper, in case one of those contracts finally comes to a conclusion. Someone else to give you your next job. Chad: That was more than double of a rate. I mean, referrals were 65%. Job boards was number two, at only 32%. So referrals, more than double that of job boards, which I thought was pretty amazing. Joel: It's not what you know, it's who you know. Josh: Exactly. That truth hasn't changed. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Another point of comparison there is finding this kind of contingent work through online apps, or just apps on your phone, only 17%. So, really isn't about Uber. Chad: Well, I know, but Uber is coming out with an expanded app called Uber Works, which is going to do more than just drivers. Then there's Tiller that's out there, Wonolo, Communo for marketing, 99 Designs, Freelancer, Fiverr, Upwork. I mean, it's growing. And from our standpoint, Josh ... I mean, we are constantly looking at tech, but also the workforce as well, to be able to see which tech actually makes sense. And most of these platforms, we are very bullish on. Would you be, as well? Joel: That was Chad's final attempt to sound smarter than the guy with the Harvard degree, by the way. Chad: It never works. Josh: Very good attempt. Let me see if I can wriggle free here. As an economist, I'm not an equity analyst. I don't take positions on particular companies. But I can say that with the long term trends, as I see it, clearly we're going through a technological shift here. There's a distinction between how much of the work is changing, versus the way that work is found. It's hard to imagine that we're not gonna see a continued shift towards using these applications, because so many things are moving online. They've already been moving online for two decades now. So, there's no reason not to expect that this is going to continue. This shift is going to continue here, as well. The question is, from an economist's perspective, what's the natural end state, or what's the end game here? Is it going to be a market that's going to have two or three top providers, and you've got to figure out who those are? Or is it going to be a lot of different specialists, and you'll actually have a dozen or two dozen really successful apps? Josh: But certainly, it seems like a really attractive space to go and try and solve that problem. You know, if you can come up with a better answer to that, then you can make a better investment decision, and you're the one who's gonna make the money. Chad: There it is. Joel: And with that, Josh, we thank you for your time. Josh, if someone wants to know more about you, your organization, or find the survey, where should they go? Josh: You can go to www.iCIMS.com. If you add a slash, hiring dash insights, you'll find my blog and a lot of other great material. We've also got a monthly hiring indicator that you can check out that's found there, that gives you the latest job trends according to our data, based on over 4,000 customers, four million jobs, and over 75 million job applications a year. And you can find me on Twitter @jwrightstuff. That's Wright like the brothers, @jwrightstuff. Joel: You are a great marketer. Susan Vitale would be proud. Chad: There it is. Joel: Chad, we out. Chad: We out. Stella: Hi. This is Stella Cheesman. Thanks for listening to the Cheese and Chad Podcast, or at least that's what I call it. Anyway, make sure you subscribe on iTunes. that sill Android thingy or wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to give buckets of money to our sponsors, otherwise I may be forced to take that coal mining job I saw on Monster.com. We out. Chad: Okay, okay, okay, okay. Before we go, remember when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing? Joel: Yeah, you know all about reflexes. And then I brilliantly tied it to text messages, 97% open rate. Then I elegantly, elegantly tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh, Chad. I can be elegant. Can't I? Chad: Whatever, man. I know it's redundant. You already heard about Text2Hire, but you're still not using Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: What? Chad: I know, man. Joel: Come on, man. Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again, this is all by elegant design. It's all about Text2Hire, and it's all about Nexxt. Joel: And elegant design. So go to ChadCheese.com, click on the Nexxt logo, and get 25 ... Yeah, I said 25 percent off your first Text2Hire campaign. Chad: Woo. Joel: Engage better. Use Text2Hire from Nexxt. 2 Xs. Chad: Boo yah. #Economy #GigEconomy #Economist #Research #iCims

Feel the love on this Valentine's Day episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Let the boys buy you a drink and weave tales of... - iCIMS data showing Indeed getting throat-punched by Google for Jobs - Jobvite backing up the Brinks to compete in the arms race for HR tech supremacy - GM's Toledo plant, nooses, swastikas, racism and lawsuits - and how LinkedIn's hip-to-be-square strategy is failing with Millennials. We love ya' long time, just like our sponsors, Sovren, Canvas and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Happy Valentine’s day all you lovers out there. Get ready to get all warm and fuzzy. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's most romantic and devilishly sexy if I do say so myself. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: I'm Joel Cupid Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Barry White Sowash. Joel: Oh, Jesus. This week Chad gets to give George LaRocque a big FU. Jobvite backs up the Brink's truck and millennials are showing no love to LinkedIn. Chad: Fuck. Joel: Fucking millennials. Grab your overpriced roses, a bottle of Merlot, and get cozy lovebirds. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas spot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas: Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off the Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiters' success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: Chad Barry White Sowash. Good Lord. Chad: Oh yeah baby. Joel: Yeah, dude. Happy Valentine's Day. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Any big plans? Chad: Oh, yeah. A little love with my wife. But yeah, I already have the roses, the chocolate dip, strawberries, all that stuff has been done this morning. I'll make sure to keep it real and keep it romantic the entire weekend because that's how we do things here in the Sowash residence. Joel: That's very troubling, very troubling. I'm having my mom, all three kids and I think Tacos tonight is our Valentine's Day. Tomorrow is date night, however. We're getting the babysitter. We're going to do one of those rooms where you get locked in and you got to a ... What's it called? Chad: Escape room or something. Joel: Escape room, yeah. We're doing escape room some dinner and drinks. Yeah, just chilling out a little bit. When you have a two-year-old, those lovely moments are few and far between. So, we'll take advantage of it as best we can. But we're traveling next week, so there's nothing too crazy. Chad: Traveling next week to Banff to go to The Gathering, bitches. Joel: Most of our audience is saying, "What the hell is Banff and what the hell's The Gathering?" Chad: Yeah, most people know what Banff is because it is this picturesque postcard. Wherever you turn, it looks like a postcard. It's just fucking gorgeous. It's in the Canadian Rockies. It's interesting that in talking to recruitment marketers and telling them about The Gathering, and then them checking out the website that none of them had heard of it, number one because it is about brand. We're talking about cult brands right, but none of these guys knew of it and they won't be there. I know you're jelly mother fuckers. That's right. Joel: It's mostly a vacation, I think, at this point, although Indeed is going to be there. So Indeed Canada, maybe. Maybe some Workopolis folks. I don't know. We'll have to get all like Geraldo on them and try and get them in an interview while we're there. Chad: It's interesting too because we're going to Banff this coming week and Indeed Canada I mean they pretty much love us. It's the people in Austin that I think don't like us as much. We're going to Austin the last week for a super-secret project that we can't tell anybody about. Joel: Our rest of the month is an Indeed sandwich basically. We've got Canada up top and Austin at the bottom, which could be interesting. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Happy Valentine's Day to us. Chad: No shit, man. Joel: All right, dude. I got one main shout out I got to get it out there. Shout out to El Chapo baby. Chad: Yeah. Joel: My man was found guilty on all 10 counts, drug trafficking, coercion, cocaine, everything. El Chapo, as many know who're integral to the show for one thing and really frankly I just wanted to play this soundbite from CareerBuilder as most people know. Please enjoy. CB Dude: Lastly, trip. Yes, there will be a trip. I just don't know when and where yet. As soon as I will know, you will know, and know this, we're not sleeping on this. It's not like we're not focused. Chad: We're not sleeping on this. CB Dude: We actually had a trip done and sold out three weeks ago. We had a great hotel in Cabo. We had dates confirmed. Chad: What happened? CB Dude: The problem is Cabo has become completely destabilized. Chad: Oh, shit. CB Dude: Literally, this holiday season, they've had over 50,000 reservations canceled. Evidently, when El Chapo was incarcerated, the code of ethics that he instilled in Cabo, Mexico has gone away. Chad: This code of ethic. CB Dude: There's no code of ethics. There's no code of honor. All of a sudden, there's a war for power. You're seeing things happen that you haven't seen in the past where people, where gangs, drug dealers were actually going to restaurants and shoot up the place. That never happened before. Bottom line is this. Chad: Oh, jet. CB Dude: I wish I could sit here and tell you we have- Joel: I'm out. Drop the mic. Chad: Everybody just in case you forgot, that was actually ... What was his name? John Smith or Anderson or- Joel: John Smith. Yeah. Chad: Yeah. He was like VP of sales or some shit like that. He was talking to the sales people about why they're not going to Cabo. The reason was El Chapo is not in power anymore and now guess what, they're really fucked because El Chapo, 10 counts, his ass is going to be in a prison. Joel: He has escaped twice from prison. However, those were Mexican prisons and I can't vouch for them. He is going to be in Colorado I think. So yeah. He should be locked up for life. We should have heard the last of El Chapo. Chad: Nice. Joel: But we have no heard the last of that soundbite. Joel: It will come back. Yes. It will come back. Chad: Thank you CareerBuilder. Thank you. Joel: The gift that keeps on giving this Valentine's Day. Chad: Let's keep this going. I don't know if it's Keca Ward or Kish. It's spelled K-E-C-A, but anyway she's a first-time listener. Thanks for listening. Keep listening and get your peers to listen and subscribe, your family, people in the supermarket. I mean, that's your mission. Go get more Chad and Cheese loving listeners people. That's what we need. Joel: Spread the love I think is what you're saying on this Valentine's Day. Chad: All right. Audra Knight, thanks for bringing ZipRecruiter's ugly Facebook ad to our attention. Then I went on to LinkedIn and there it fucking was on LinkedIn. It looks like this like- Joel: It looks like a bad '70s album cover. Chad: Well, it looks like a Christmas card that you would find in a clearance bin at- Joel: I can see that. Chad: ... a dollar store. So, it would be like a 25 cent card. It was ugly as shit. ZipRecruiter, I know you've got cash to do better. So my God, dude. Make that shit work. Joel: Tidy it up, Zip. Go to 99designs where by the way, we will be announcing the new T-shirt winner- Chad: Yes. Joel: ... Monday. Yes, we're very excited. Chad: I'm pretty excited about that shit. Also, Hireology tweeted a pic of their Chad and Cheese discussion group. Joel: Loved it. Loved it. Chad: I think we should actually take it further than that. I would like to do a special discussion group for these guys since they have one and maybe try to schedule that around that the TAtech our recruitment summit in Chicago. What do you think? Joel: I love this listen party. My only problem is they said what's missing is the wine. If you're trying to enjoy our show with wine, I think you're doing it wrong. Chad: Actually, Kyle brought beer to one of our shows before. So, I can guarantee you, especially if it's offsite, they will be bringing the beer. But that being said, if you're not yet going to the TAtech Recruitment Marketing summit, go to TAtech.org and get your fucking tickets for God sakes. We're going to be there. Obviously, it's going to be a hit. So, let's do this. Joel: It's going to be epic as the kids say. What else? You got tons of shout outs, man. All I wanted was the El Chapo soundbite. So you go to town on these shout outs. Chad: Okay. Jobpal.ai tweeted some love to us out there. They are in the UK and we don't have a chat bot yet in death match for Lisbon. So, I think we might try to get these guys on as the number four bot because right now right we've got Tin guy and TNG, the creepy interviewing robot. We've got Candidate.ID, The Scotsman, the Kilts and the Braveheart shit. We've got Opening.io who just signed on and we've got one more left. So, maybe it will be Jobpal. Maybe we'll get a chat bot in that bitch. Joel: Well if it's any incentive, our very first death match winner just had a very profitable exit. I'm not saying they're connected, but I'm not saying they're not connected. So, it's not a bad thing to be on our death match apparently. Chad: Well, the funny thing is though TNG started talking smack to Candidate.ID on Twitter this week. So, they're already getting into like death match kind of competition mode which I love. Joel: We're like four months away and the trash talking has already started. I love it. Chad: I love that shit. Last but not least, yeah, Ed from Philly, hey buddy. He's in for doing some soundbites for us, so I'll be reaching out. Joel: I better get his deepest Philly accent possible. I want to feel like Ed is non on a cheesesteak when he's doing soundbites for us. Chad: He's got his Eagles jersey on. Joel: Yes. Chad: He's watching Rocky and he's eating a cheesesteak yeah. Joel: I want a Mike Schmidt jersey. I want him to grow out a Mike Schmidt mustache, eat a cheesesteak, and do soundbite thrusts. That's what I want. Maybe some youngling. Chad: That would be sweet. That would be very sweet. Last but not least, events. Joe he said obviously, we're going to roll out the T-shirt. We're going to be at events throughout this year. We're going to add some more events here soon to be quite frank, but go to chadcheese.com checkouts. Just click on events and checkout where we're going to be. Buy your tickets, registers, get your asses there. Then also check out the new Chad and Cheese logo, sport and the shaker trucker hat. That's fucking classic. That's all I got. Joel: Awesome dude. Let's get to the big FU to George LaRocque. I know you're excited to get to that. Chad: What? Oh no. George is a sweetheart. Joel: Data over people. Chad: What did you get and where did you get it because this is all about the ice and just traffic data? Joel: You know I'm plugged into the dark web of recruiting news, so I was on the receiving end of an iCIMS update. iCIMS is a friend of the show obviously. They're basically a bunch of news, what they're doing, stuff that's going on. The thing that obviously stuck out to me like a sore thumb was data that they've been able to garner from their 4,000 clients. Data showing that their clients are seeing a whopping 60, that's, 6-0% drop in referrals or traffic from Indeed, but also showing a 150% increase from Google traffic. Joel: So, this is in stark contrast to our George LaRocque survey that we've discussed. I actually have a podcast out today, which will be yesterday for the people listening tomorrow. But anyway, George was very critical of Google. They're not all that. That's not raw job search for stats. iCIMS has real data 4000 companies. George had 500 SurveyMonkey out there telling him information for his survey. From my standpoint as much as it makes pain and hurt, Sowash wins with data on this topic. Chad: How do you not win with data, I mean, seriously? That was my whole reason for the conversation. If you haven't listened to the podcast this week with George, guy's awesome. I mean, he's just looking for signals, but sometimes I believe in our industry, we look in the wrong places for signals in some cases. He did get some action and some love from Todd Maycunich at resident Tech Stud over at TMP. Joel: Tech Stud. Chad: I think that's on his card, but he did say worth mentioning we've seen the same gain, and that's TMP seeing the same gain in traction from Google for job across all clients. Mostly likely a byproduct of Google biasing jobs on integrated employer sites rather than jobs on integrated job boards, which I think is interesting because we've talked about this before, will Google bias that contents? Chad: I guess the big question is how are they biasing it because generally, there's a job posting on Google that you go to. There are ways that you can actually go in apply for the job. They give you the career site. They give you all these different job board opportunities. So, how are they fucking biasing? I don't understand. That's number one. Joel: This is you talking or TMP talking? Chad: Me. I mean, Todd is saying you're biasing it. I understand how it's biased if the options are provided. Joel: I can't speak for Google, but I think if they were here, they would save it algorithmically, they're learning that people are choosing to click on the direct link to an employer site as opposed to a job board site. So, we're going to continue to show that to the users because well they're showing us that that's what they want. Chad: But if you use, if you actually use Google for jobs and you land on the job posting on Google, it gives you options on how to apply. So, therefore if the career site is like in the number one position, it still gives you those options, I guess is that with the bias is possibly that they are offering the career site like first? I'm going to have dig a little bit deeper with Todd, but I'm going to go to tweet number two because three-part tweet. Joel: Jesus. Chad: But the Indeed story is misleading, in January of 2018 they moved to a two pain experience, which included a hosted job description. Ultimately, employers are likely seeing significantly less traffic from Indeed, but not a negligible decrease in applicants. I still have a problem with this whole two pain bullshit that Indeed is doing because you have to pay on that first click, but you're not actually getting the job seeker to your site on that click. And in prospectively not just getting them to apply for that job because maybe they're not ready for that job, and that's great, but that is my candidate right now or my user right now. Chad: If I can afford them an opportunity to look for another job on my site, that's what I'm fucking paying for, but guess what, Indeed is taking that away. To be able to say it misleading because of this new two pain, well that's fucking Indeed's fault. They're not actually delivering the eyeballs to the site and allowing the brand to do the work. They're saying, "No, we're going to the pay for that, but once they click again, then you'll get them." Joel: In most cases that have seen, they make you register for Indeed before you go much further anywhere else. Chad: Dude, I'll be going fucking ape shit. That's literally holding a candidate hostage that you fucking paid for. Joel: Well, everybody does it. Chad: It doesn't make it right. That's bullshit. Joel: I know it doesn't make it right, but I'm saying maybe that's why they're saying screw going to a job site because they been fucking with me for so long. I'm just going to write to the company site. Chad: Tweet three, our data suggests only a 2% decrease in conversions, but a 75% decrease in conversion rate. My point I don't believe the extent to which Indeed's traffic is down is a consequence of Google for jobs, rather it's a result of a conscientious and value driven decision by Indeed. TMP's an agency and they want to pander a little bit. Joel: Well, agencies aren't going to make a lot of money if any on Google stuff versus Indeed stuff. That's an easy sell to make, but yeah. Of course, we've seen this forever. Agencies came out in favor of Monster back in the day, CareerBuilder dies. They're going to defend where their bread is buttered, in this case Indeed. They make a lot of money on Indeed I bet. Chad: So hopefully, we can get some love from Todd and maybe we can even get him on the show and talk through these points because he has a shit ton of data. Once again, this isn't survey data. These are analytics. That was the big, I mean really the big differentiation between George's survey and what I was looking for is actual hard data. That's it. Joel: Also, announced from iCIMS. They're now developing or have launched Facebook Messenger, WeChat and WhatsApp as solutions or platforms as well. We've seen this with Talkpush, and now we're going to start seeing it with the iCIMS platform. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: And if I had to guess the Jobvite in the near future, which bring us maybe to our next story unless you have comments about that. Chad: Yeah. No. This next segment is dedicated to Mason Wong who tweeted he is eagerly awaiting Chad and Cheese perspective on this next topic. Thanks Mason. This one is for you buddy. Joel: You're bound to be disappointed, Mason, but we'll give our best shot. Do you want to go first, Chad? Chad: K1 pushes money to Jobvite by 200 million. Joel: A little bit of cash, a little bit of chatter. Chad: Then they turn around, I'm sure this was obviously all dealt out and buy Canvas, RolePoint and Talemetry. Fuck. Joel: That's a three player deal that would definitely make the headlines on sports center for sure. Canvas sponsor the show. I don't even know if they're two years old. I guess they're over two years old, but what a great story. We were one of the first ... We went to their offices and interviewed them early on. They've been a friend of the show. They've been on death match. They're sponsor. I know you and I can't be happier or couldn't be happier for Aman Brar and his team because they're just good people. They're here locally where we live. So great for them. Joel: Talemetry and RolePoint, I don't know as much about or much about. I know there's an opponent of referrals particularly internally that's big there I think. My take on all this and the news is great, but I think the bigger question, I guess my opinion on this is Microsoft dropped a big asteroid on our whole industry two, three years ago when I when they pay $26 billion for LinkedIn. Then everyone knew that LinkedIn was going to be like the platform of choice for a lot of people or that's what they were aiming for. Joel: Google came in the game and that was like a double asteroid that hit our industry. Facebook came in although they've they been a little bit less aggressive maybe recently because of the role privacy shit. So, Indeed panics, ZipRecruiter panics, every job board panics. We've the dysfunction flow down into the job board market at first, and then now I think we're seeing the reaction with the ATS market. Now, everyone is like, "We can just survive on being this ugly duct tape people management system." Joel: I think inevitably, LinkedIn and Google are going to be our Coke and Pepsi. Now, it's like choosing to be Dr Pepper or who's going to be Sprite, who's going to be Red Bull? Those things are being decided right in front of our eyes and will probably be decided over the next two, three, five years. Chad: I do feel a shade of iCIMS and then also trying to catch up and in trying to catch up to an iCIMS and get the fuck out of an SND market that Google is starting to gain ground in, we're going to talk about, invading different countries. I think iCIMS overall believes that's whether right or wrong and we saw this when we were in New Jersey and Colin was talking about it that Google from an ATS standpoint is really going to have their hands full in the SMB market, right. Chad: Jobvite is in the SMB mid-market. So, it's almost like okay, what do we do? If we want to get away from Google or get away from this market to an extent and become an enterprise player, how do we do that? Well we sure the fuck can't go out and go out and develop all this stuff, so we're going to have to acquire and/or partner. In this case, obviously it was acquisition. Chad: So Talemetry, a CRM, career site, source analytics, deeply integrated to other ATS platforms. RolePoint employee referral system, which you just don't see any of those works are good for them, RolePoint, because now they're rolled up into a much larger system and they don't have to be out there on their own, and then Canvas. I mean, that one I thought was just too damn dizzy especially after we saw the iCIMS acquisition of TextRecruit because the ability to get response out of text versus email, not to mention they've got cool Bitmojis and shit, it just made sense. You knew it was going to happen. You just didn't know how long it was going to take, so that was pretty quick. Chad: My question will these companies be blended into one brand or will they continue to work as separate brands? You and I have had disagreements on TextRecruit and iCIMS and how I believe they're going to stay as separate brands just from a market standpoint. I think it's smarter. I mean, these are three additional platforms. What do you think about that? I mean, do you think some of them will roll up, they'll all keep their own, or they'll all roll up? Joel: This would be a guess at this point, but I would have to believe that eventually it'll all be under the Jobvite brand. I think in the near future, they'll all remain separate. They'll all do business as usual. I'm sure there'll be cross-selling. There'll be maybe greater promotion on Jobvite to use those services or maybe discounts or incentives to use all of them. Joel: But ultimately I think the technology, the folks working there will all become Jobvite employees. It will Jobvite messaging or Jobvite communications instead of Canvas. I think iCIMS will be the same as well. I think even we're seeing less and less TextRecruit branding. Then it's just iCIMS rolling out WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger. I mean, ultimately TextRecruit is the brainpower behind that, but it's not coming out as a TextRecruit product. Chad: I really believe that the way that iCIMS and TextRecruit have continued to move forward as separate brands, and not in all cases with this. I think RolePoint to an extent could prospectively roll up under Jobvite, but I think there is better revenue opportunities with that separate brand to be able to sell into other applicant tracking systems. So, you're not just focused on being able to provide a text and/or a messaging opportunity with in the Jobvite platform. Dude, you've got a much larger market, and you can pretty much sell to anybody. Joel: Yeah. I mean, there's wrong answer between a branded house or a house of brands. Chad: I just think they have a better opportunity going in under a separate name that's not a pure competitor. Joel: We just need to get Aman and Finnigan on the show and ask them. I don't know what they're going to say, but we'll try to read between the lines and see what's really going on. Speaking of a product and brand that doesn't suck, let's get a quick word from JobAdX, and we'll talk about Indeed and LinkedIn. Chad: Do it. JobAdX: This is the sound of job search. This is the sound of job search defeat, "Ugh." Job search can be frustrating. Job seekers run into the same irrelevant ads. Page after page, before they find a match. When job seekers aren't engaged, conversions are low. Budgets are wasted, jobs go unfilled. No one wins. But job search doesn't have to be defeating. JobAdX's smart search exchange references 400 data points to select the most targeted jobs, and delivers what job seekers really want to premium ad units across our network. JobAdX: "Score." That's the sound of JobAdX's relevant results, attracting a qualified candidate and filling your job faster. Find out how to improve your job advertising campaigns, and increase candidate attraction and engagement by emailing us at, joinus@jobadx.com. JobAdX. Together, we can save job search. Chad: Together, we can save job search. Joel: Not a bold promise at all. Good on you JobAdX. Let those balls hang low. I love it. Chad: Make it happen. Joel: Speaking of balls hanging low, Indeed. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Two items in the news, they have a new CEO and they continue to crush it from a revenue perspective. I'm happy to talk about either one first. I'll leave it up to you lover boy. Chad: Go ahead and hit the revenue piece. Joel: Okay. Q3 revenue rise is 6% across the entire business of recruit. By the way, I had no idea how much money these fuckers make. It's ridiculous. It's billions. They make a ton of money. These job board things are just little side projects to their bigger revenue stuff, but anyway 6% growth over the quarter within HR technology, which is where we talk. Joel: Revenue growth was mainly due to increased sponsored job advertising revenue from new and existing clients at Indeed, and the inclusion of Glassdoor, which was acquired last year in Q1. The group added that Glassdoor attracted approximately 64 million monthly unique visitors and traffic grew double digits year on year in Q3 of 18. As of the end of Q3 of last year, Glassdoor had approximately, and you had a jaw-dropping moment on this one, 800 employees. Chad: What the fuck! 800. What are those people doing? 800 employees? Jesus. Can't they find some robots for some of that shit? Joel: 800 dude. gotta sell shit, man. You got to call people and whatever. Yeah, but yeah. Chad: You know where that revenue, that Indeed revenue is coming from, right? Joel: Was it staffing? Is that where you're going with that? Chad: Oh yeah. You kick staffing to the curb and say, "Fuck you. You're paying for it or you're not getting it at all because you're not getting it for free anymore." Then staffing comes in with their head hanging low like a whipped fucking puppy, and they pay a shit ton of cash. It's like okay, that's how Indeed starts to like bleed you dry. That's just slowly they're bleeding you dry, they're bleeding you dry, and then guess what, they cut it and then the blood just starts fucking flowing. That, I would say from my standpoint I could be wrong, is definitely one of reasons why they could have seen a bump is because staffing companies, all staffing companies said, "Fuck, now we have to open up the checkbook." Joel: Yeah. Well, that's exactly right. I don't remember when Indeed cut off job boards, and it was like, "Holy shit, we got to pay money at least until we figure out where we get the rest of our traffic." Chad: Yes. Joel: So I'm sure there was a huge spike in Indeed when they turned off ... reduced the spigot if you will on job boards. But dude, this is almost a $21 billion company. It's huge. I had no idea. Chad: Yeah. It is fucking crazy. Staffing, there's some cash in staffing. Joel: We're in the wrong business, man. We need to get out of this podcasting shit. They have a new CEO. Chad: Yeah. I thought that was interesting. I mean, when you're seeing numbers like this from Indeed, and they're seeing the growth, and they're going through the plan, and they bled job boards dry, kicked them to the curb. Now, they're bleeding staffing companies dry. Who knows when they're going to them kick them to curb, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Why would you change CEO? Joel: I have an answer. Chad: Okay. Joel: It's a guess more than answer, but here's my guess. Chad: Okay. I like that. Joel: So, the new CEO, Chris Hyams is an Indeed veteran, primarily on the tech side. Not primarily- Chad: Product guy. He was product guy. Joel: Pretty much product, hiring technology, he's got a tech background et cetera. He's replacing Deko as Hisayuki Idekoba. Yeah. So, Deko is his nickname. Chad: He was a recruit guy. He's a recruit guy. Joel: He was, yeah, total like management executive board of director guy, Wharton School of Business kind of guy. My guess is they said, "Look, we're not just posting jobs and using existing tech to grow. We need to grow products, services. We need to compete with the resources of the LinkedIn, Microsoft, Google et cetera. This is the new game." Joel: So, to put a guy in charge that has a tech background and has, I'm assuming, very deep knowledge of Indeed's platform and what they do and what they can do. So, to me, it was a changing of the guard like, "Look, we need a tech specific CEO. Deko, nice guy. We've grown rapidly under his watch, but it's a new day where tech rules and we need a guy that can facilitate that." But I think it's sort of what we saw with Dice with bringing in a tech guy and getting rid of the financial sort of business guy. Chad: So Chris was the president before, so they're moving him from president to CEO. I reached out to a pretty big brand to ask them this morning. I'm like, "Hey, what do you think of this change?" They said, even though it pains them to say, it was a smart move because he knows the market, he knows the product, and his mindset on those roles are really future forward. So, it's a good move. I hate to say that, but it was a good move for the evil empire. Joel: You can give props if props are due. Chad: Yeah. No. I think this is smart, dude. Did you put a product guy? I mean, to like at what Smashfly with Tom. He was the CTO, and they knew that they had to do things much differently. I think that was a good move for them to put Tom into that position. Joel: This could be a new Indeed, man. They could be a more friendly, transparent, open. Chad: Kinder, gentler. Joel: Kinder, gentler, fuzzier and warmer. Indeed, I mean I put out a tweet about this new CEO and the official Indeed account on Twitter says, "Thanks, Joel" or whatever it was. I'm like either that's just some intern work in Hootsuite and doesn't know any better, or maybe they're actually like, "Let's talk. We'll talk to you and we'll open up the doors." We're going to be in Austin soon. Maybe we should walk in ask for Mr. Hyams and see if he can talk to us. Chad: Yeah. I think we should probably prep the area before we go down there and say, "Yeah. If you guys are open, let's have a conversation." If they are, they are. If they're not, they'll play an Art Zeile from Dice and they'll get in the corner and start sucking their thumb. Joel: Well, we know they listen to this show. So if you're out there Indeed, reach out to us and schedule a little time with your new CEO while we're at Austin. Chad: Yeah, and Indeed Canada. We're going to be in Canada next week. Come see us. Joel: There you go. I hope they have Indeed business cards by now and not Workopolis. Chad: Next story. Joel: Next story. This is all you. This is your lane, dude. Chad: Yeah. I was producing the Crazy and The King Podcast. Dude, if you haven't subscribed, make sure you do so. Joel: Plug. Chad: Yeah, plug there. I heard Torin and Julie talking about this GM story that I hadn't even fucking heard about and it set me off, dude. So employees are suing GM for "underlying atmosphere of violent, racial hate, and bullying." In a GM plant in Toledo, two black supervisors stood up to racism. We're talking about nooses being displayed in several areas, whites only written on the bathroom wall, swastikas. Chad: One of the supervisor subordinate said, "Back in the day, a person like you would already be in the ground buried with a shovel." Then the supervisor was told, when he took it to his supervisor said, "Hey, if you want to build relationships here, you got to let things go." So, just as we believe we are starting to evolve as a people and we can get past this whole color of the skin or religion, this shit happens. It just fucking set me off that I can't believe a major brand like GM is allowing and has allowed this shit to happen. Joel: My two thoughts on this are one is, you and I know Ohio and we know Toledo. It's near Detroit. It's very diverse. Chad: Yes. Joel: So when this came out of Toledo, I was pretty surprised. The second thing led me to like we're just in a political environment now that our leader, like our head of state, doesn't necessarily champion this or condone it directly. But I feel like if you're racist, you feel empowered because of who is in the White House and what's been said. Joel: It goes back to the Robert E. Lee statue in the south and getting rid of that and comments around that. I just think there's an empowerment where if you're racist, you feel like, "Oh shit, it's okay to be racist. I'm going to do this shit." It's very, very unfortunate that we're pushing the rewind on culture and society in our country at least when you see shit like that. It's disgusting and disgraceful and sad. Chad: And it goes beyond that for the brand of GM. I mean, during a plant meeting ... This was a problem and obviously, it's a problem. We've got nooses showing up for God sakes. So, during a plant meeting, a white supervisor said, "Too big of a deal was being made of these nooses. After all, there was never a black person who was lynched who didn't deserve it." That motherfucker was never disciplined, yet GM says they are an inclusive culture. This has to happen. I get the whole from the top the bullshit that fucking Trump puts out there. To be quite frank, it is fairly blatant when he says Mexicans are rapists and they're criminals and shit like that. That's blatant racism. Joel: Sure. Chad: Number one. Number two, GM they're the ones in control of this and they need to fix this shit. Joel: Totally agree. Totally agree. I mean, dude we have the governor of Virginia which is not a backward state by any means, I mean may be part of it, but like- Chad: A Democrat. Joel: ... a Democrat who in the '80s, not the 1880s, the 1980s was filmed far left and blackface and a Ku Klux Klan outfit. He won't say which one is him. Like there's a bad answer on both ways, but he's still in office. He still feels that that's okay or that ... His defense is like, "No, that maybe isn't me, but I went in blackface as Michael Jackson." So your defense is that it's still a blackface, but it was Michael Jackson and not like ... So the whole thing is bizarre. We live in bizarro times. Joel: I hope to a higher power that in two years this whole thing goes away. I fear that it won't, but these are weird times we live in. It's sad that it's spilling into corporate America with reputable companies that are old and traditional in our society and just shit flows downhill, man. It's sad. Chad: Yeah. From our standpoint, I think it's on us to be able to continue to shine light on this shit because that is the best disinfectant, right. I didn't even know about this. It's like fuck this. Our listeners are going to know about this. This is bullshit. This is a huge brand. From my standpoint, that definitely makes me not want to buy any type of a GM product. Joel: And that's the best way to send them a message. Chad: Along with our podcast. Joel: You're really bringing down the Valentine's Day show. Come on, man. Chad: Hey, I'm giving love to all those people out there that deserve equity, inclusion, and real diverse cultures. That's who I'm fucking bringing love to. Joel: The only thing that can make this better is our favorite voiceover, Sovren. Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produces them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching, visit Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Chad: So are we meeting up with Sovren. What's going on? We're going to Austin in two weeks. We need to get this nail down. Come on, Sovren. If Joel hasn't reached out to you, just reach out to me. I'll get shit set up. Joel: Dude, there's been too much news. I can't coordinate- Chad: Whatever. Joel: ... a social schedule in my spare time anymore. Chad: What you're saying to Sovren is they're not important to you, but they are important to me. Joel: They're important to us. Technically, they're our longest standing sponsor. Chad: Yeah, they're pretty awesome. They're pretty fucking awesome. Joel: All right, dude. Let's go little rapid fire. I guess we got Google Hire news, we got LinkedIn and we got TMP. Go. Chad: Okay. Hire by Google they've been around since 2017, but guess what, they're spreading out. They're branching. They're invading Canada and the UK. Joel: Meaning they're growing into those markets. They're not literally invading with weapons of mass destruction. Chad: I'm telling you right now the AI is being weaponized and it all comes down to one thing. Their competitors are feeling like this is an invasion, I guaranfuckingtee you. Joel: By the way this goes back to our Jobvite, iCIMS shit. All these companies are seeing or they better see that Google is progressively moving into your backyard. They're coming in Canada, UK. They'll be in Japan soon. They'll be in France, Germany, et cetera, Australia. I mean, they're coming for you and if you're not preparing for it, they're going to burn your house down so to speak. Chad: Jobvite is obviously preparing for that shit. Joel: Obviously, yeah. They needed 200 million to help do that and a lot companies can't do that. So, good on them for having the ability to raise the money, but yeah. Google is coming to town. Is your castle going to be strong enough to withstand it? Chad: LinkedIn. Joel: LinkedIn, dude. This isn't good I guess. So you came across a story that said only 13% of millennials- Chad: Yeah. I think this is really interesting because you take a look at it from a demographic standpoint, as the boomers move out and you've got the millennials that are moving in to really just into that vacuum per se in the workforce, this is a big loss for LinkedIn if they can't get that new segment, that new demographic to start using their system. Chad: I can only imagine after this research that they had a hard one and said fuck. Then saying okay, how do we go after these types of individuals to get them to start using the platform, to understand the professional network is where they need to be? Maybe the whole new video thing that they're doing is one of the reasons. I [crosstalk 00:41:48]. Joel: Yeah. I mean, partly it's shocking because these 15 to 34-year-olds. I believe 15-year-olds don't know should of about LinkedIn or care, but if you're over 21 and in college or educated, if you're not on LinkedIn, something is wrong. 13% is nothing. I can launch a site and get 13% of millennials to use it. It might not be a social network, but that's really bad. This is from their own demographics. Joel: Granted from this report, this was a source kind of story. 39 million students and recent grads are on LinkedIn, which is not a ton. If that's globally, that's not a huge number. 44% make 75,000 a year or more. More than 70% are outside the U.S., which is interesting. Even if it's 25% of millennials using LinkedIn, that's not a good sign for LinkedIn. Chad: No. There's a really good data in this survey that LinkedIn pulled together, but you're always looking for gaps. I mean, this is a huge weak spot, right? Joel: Yeah. I think they realize that which maybe brings us to our next story from LinkedIn. They're launching a live video this week, which apparently is in beta. Not everyone has it, but they're slowly rolling it out. Our friend Audra who we mentioned earlier in the shout outs had a good comment that basically like 2013 call, they want their technology back. Joel: I remember Facebook in particular pushed live video hard. They really wanted people to be a sporting event or concert or whatever, like live stream your participation in that. I mean, I tried it a little bit, but it was a pain in the ass because you got to be interesting on live video. It's not just that interesting to be at the mall and talking about going to Justice and buying a new unicorn leotard. So, LinkedIn's brand is like old people. I think they're going to continue to have a hard time appealing to younger people on any big way. Chad: Yeah, I don't think this is the answer. That's for damn sure. Joel: Yeah. Ultimately, LinkedIn is going to be an add-on to Microsoft's dynasty. Chad: Yeah. Joel: LinkedIn will be utility to have your professional presence, to network with people and share stories, but it will cease being like a cool place to hang out. I think young people are already tell you like, "I'm going to hang out on LinkedIn." Chad: Yeah. I think Microsoft and their suite of products if they can start to somehow spin that to be able to try to encompass and pull more people in. If you have Microsoft suite license or something of that nature, obviously you're going to have a profile or whatever it is. That automatically sucks you in the LinkedIn, who knows right, but there's got to be some ways to really pull in that humongous fucking audience that Microsoft already has using suite. Joel: Just get Kylie Jenner or whatever her name is to be a spokesperson for LinkedIn and make it cool to millennials. Chad: Or you can do something like a Fyre Festival. Joel: Yes, I was going to say that or have a concern on a desert island and really be cool to the millennials. All right, dude. Last on the news briefs here in the end, TMP big ass recruitment ad agency acquires CKR Interactive this week. This is the consolidation of the agency industry. We saw this was Shaker buying the Arland Group. Give us your clients, give us your talent, your sales people who are good and the professionals thought leaders over there, but ultimately, it's very hard to survive as a niche or boutique agency in today's world. Chad: Yeah. I think unless you have a KRT that they focus really heavily on programmatic and companies don't even how to spell fucking programmatic at this point just, so they have to go to somebody. It's like, "That's where we specialize." So, I think in that vein, if you can ride that wave, fucking ride it. But yeah, I think you're right with regard too it's kind of acquihire, as also you're taking another player off the table. So if again you are showing up to these presentations, and you've got one less player in the room because they're now a part of your team, that doesn't hurt either. Joel: The days of answering the phone and placing newspaper ads and display ads in the local newspaper and being able to go to your local recruiter and take them to lunch at Applebee's and be nice and keep their business are gone. That's where those little agencies thrive in sort of that human connection and people just don't care about people as much anymore. Happy Valentine's Day. People hate people. Chad: Here come the robots. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Ema: Hi. I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #iCims #Indeed #data #TMP #Jobvite #Canvas #Talemetry #RolePoint #GM #GeneralMotors #Racism #HirebyGoogle #LinkedIn

George LaRocque with HRwins.com recently published a job seeker survey. Chad had a lot of problems with it. So we did a podcast. Here it goes ... enjoy this Uncommon EXCLUSIVE. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Chad: I'm going to be over the top. Say hello to the easiest way to find interested and qualified candidates. Joel: Dude you need to tone it down, I was just napping. You mean Uncommon's automated sourcing that turns passive candidates into interested and qualified applications? Chad: Yep. Uncommon automation helps recruiters cut their sourcing time by 75%. Joel: Wow. How much coffee did you have today? Chad: A lot. Joel: Anyway, dude. 75%? That sounds like black magic or something. Chad: Close, it's called automation. It's simple, actually. You just feed or post your jobs into Uncommon. The platform identifies your job requirements and in seconds Uncommon uses those requirements to search over 150 million candidate profiles, and then it pulls back only the qualified candidates. Joel: And don't forget, you can connect your email and Uncommon will provide automated outreach with your customized messages to activate those passive candidates, those pesky passive candidates. Chad: Even better. I'm going to one-up you. Uncommon shows exactly how the candidate meets all the job requirements with a side-by-side comparison view against the job requirements. Joel: Which means you won't be asking yourself, "What in the hell is this candidate doing here?" Chad: No, but you will be asking yourself, "Where has Uncommon been all my life?" Joel: Seriously? Joel: Uncommon is the easiest way to find qualified candidates, active or passive. Chad: Visit Uncommon.co and use discount code ChadCheese for 20% off. Joel: Uncommon.co. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: It's George. Joel: Let's get ready to rumble. Everybody, welcome to the Chad Cheese podcast. I'm Joel Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On today's show, we're talking to George LaRocque. George: Yes. Joel: George, hello, and tell us a little bit about yourself before we rip into you? George: Hey guys, well I think it's good to be here. I'm George LaRocque, I'm the analyst, I publish everything over at HR Wins, and so I cover the HR technology marketplace pretty much full-spectrum. Joel: Thanks for being here George. Now, you're here for a specific reason. On last week's show Chad and I, specifically Chad, had some issues with your recent survey. So, before we get into the issues, defend your survey. Tell us what you did, why you did it, some of the findings that you had, and then we'll just discuss it like gentlemen. Chad: Well, no, no, no. Before we go there, I would like to specifically thank George for coming on the show. To have balls enough to come on the show. In most cases, what happens? You hear a little whining, bullshit here and there, and then nobody ever comes on the show. Joel: Or silence. Chad: They're hiding in the fetal position like fucking art from the CEO of DICE. So, George says, "Fuck that, I'm going to go smack those guys in the face." And that's what I'm talking about. Joel: Big balls, George. Thanks for all that. Now, let's get it on. George: Is this where you play the outro? Because that all sounds good to me, let's just end it right there. That's good. Joel: Not getting off that easy, George. Chad: Asshole. George: So yeah, the way this came about, it's independent work. There's no sponsor, no clients in the work, and that's important to say right up front. What was happening is I was hearing some things a lot, which, I saw that ... The last straw was when a vendor sent something out and it said, "73% of job searches start on Google." And I went, "Really? Is that a thing? Is that real? Is that real, 73-" Chad: Did he source it at all? George: No, of course not. But, there is this ... I'm not saying everybody thinks 73% of job searches start on Google, and I have a lot of respect for Google and what they're doing in the industry right now, but I was just looking at it and saying, "I'm not sure that Google, at this point, has had that kind of impact on where people start, or what people are using." So, I wanted to test it. George: I put together a really simple survey and I asked, "What do you use? Where do you start? What gave you the most relevant results, and the most irrelevant results? And, here's the thing: I was very thoughtful with all of my surveys around the kind of sample that I use. Now, it's independent work, which means I paid for it. So, would I have liked to have had a bigger sample size? Of course. And a lot of my work has a bigger sample size, but it also has a sponsor or an underwriter. But in this case, statistically speaking, I'm far above the minimum sample size to shine a light on this topic, and that's really what I'm doing. This isn't a verdict, I'm shining a light on this issue and saying, "Let's talk about this." George: So, it's a provocative headline, yes, and that's to get us to read it. Chad: Shame, and it got us to talk about it. Joel: You paid a company to do the survey, is that what you're saying? George: Yeah. In this case, well, I wrote the survey and in this case I used a Survey Monkey's audience product, so I paid for the panel, and I set up the demographic as 18 years old to 65 years old, which is generally considered the working ages. We throttled it against census data, so I have geographically and generationally what looks like the US market in that age group, and then in order to ... the screening question is, "Have you conducted an online job search in the last 12 months?" So, all of the responses are complete. Meaning, the 540 answered all of the questions, and they all conducted a search in the last 12 months. Joel: Do you know how many went out before you got to that 500 or so? George: Yeah, I want to say it was like 800. It was just under 800 or just over. It was about 800. Joel: So a blast of 800, over half of those folks have done a job search in the last 12 months? George: In this case, yeah. Joel: Okay. George: Yep. Chad: That's a hell of a target, by Survey Monkey. My big question was, I didn't really have a problem with survey size, from the standpoint. My big problem was, analytics platforms are everywhere. Real data is everywhere. Why are we surveying stupid fucking humans? Joel: By the way, George, are you done talking about the survey? Because I wanted to give you ... I wanted to give you like a full platform to go through the whole thing. If you're done, we can go at it, but I want to make sure you feel like you've had time to talk about it. George: I'm starting to understand who the good cop is and who the bad cop is on this. Chad: Asshole. George: So, I appreciate that. I appreciate that, Joel. So, just to reinforce my point, I'm not sure if you got past the headline and the charts, but if you got down to the analyst insights- Joel: Yes. George: The first sentence is, "For employers, these data points shouldn't cause a knee jerk reaction on your ad spend." Chad: But they're going to. George: And I talk about what they should be looking for. Chad: But George, they're going to because- Joel: I mean, they're humans anyway. So, my big question is, and I totally get it, and it's like having the attorney sentence that's in there, "You can't sue me because I said this." At the end of the day, I totally get it, but this is a survey. I mean, come on man, there are plenty of people that you can tap in to who have aggregate data, source data. I mean, I can call probably four or five right now and start talking about putting together an awesome survey that is backed by data, not by stupid humans. George: Well we can disagree on whether surveys are valuable or not, but sharing aggregate data and publishing, it is not as easy as that. Like, that sounds good and I certainly have clients, and there are vendors that aren't clients, that are happy to share a view to their data. Now, will they let me go publish that data? Not usually. But, I would say this: I think you don't like the answer that I gave, which is generally that Indeed wasn't impacted as greatly as we thought it was. That's generally what the survey says. Now there's also the Talent Board just put out and they say this ... And they saw you guys, or heard you, beat up on me. And they said, "Hey," they said, "Hey George, we've got like 100,000 folks who just answered what are they using in their job search, it looks a lot like my chart." And it looks, in fact it's worse for Google because they lump Google in with other search engines, and they're further down on the list. George: So I think it ... what this says is that, yeah, they've had an impact, they can have a much bigger impact. I'd love a bigger sample size, but I think we all kind of know, like if you, anecdotally, if you go ask everybody that you bump into for the next month that's conducting a job search, just asking whether they use Google or not, they're going to say ... I bet most of them will say, "I didn't even know Google did that. I didn't know Google had a jobs interface." People are unaware of it. They haven't marketed it to the consumer. Joel: Aside from that Superbowl ad they just ran. Chad: For veterans. George: That's a good point. That's a good point. Joel: That might change. George: It could, yeah. I would say on the veterans side, it was a good start, to roll into it, right? Joel: But how many families have a veteran in the family? I thought it was a pretty genius marketing move because you look like you care about veterans, and I'm sure they do, but people who watched it like, "Wow, they have something cool for vets. I bet I could do a search on Google now for jobs," or, "Hey, someone's a vet in family. I'm going to tell them about this thing at Google that helps them search for jobs." Like, I thought it was a really good marketing strategy, from that standpoint. George: I agree, and so Joel, you don't ... You clearly don't think that people are stupid like Chad does. Chad has established that all humans- Chad: Not all. George: Are dumb. You think they would make the leap from veterans to jobs. And I agree with you, I think it was a beautiful branding. Joel: I'm pretty sure Chad's a cyborg. So, the fact that he's so anti-people makes a lot of sense. But, I wasn't as angry about the survey as he was. He has some very passionate opinions. I have some questions about the survey, for insight from you. Which, I guess we'll take a little break from angry Chad. I was curious why there was no Facebook or Craigslist in the survey. Was that an "other," or was it even included in the options? Was the question an open-ended answer, or did they have options? You know, "Choose A for Indeed. Choose B for Google. Choose C for ... " Joel: I'm like, how did that happen? Because I was kind of surprised Craigslist and/or Facebook weren't represented. George: The options are what you see in the results. So, "Other," was an open text field, and ... I want to go back and look, but I think Craigslist came up a couple of times under "Other." I got a lot ... There wasn't anything statistically that I could hang a hat on. There were some niche job boards, like maybe one or two people use plumber jobs and things that are super niche. A few people were like, "I used Indeed and nothing else." A few people said, "I used LinkedIn and nothing else." Things like that, but nothing that was overwhelming, but those were the options. Now, I don't consider Facebook a job board, or a job search site, but I get why they may- Joel: I mean- George: Be valuable here, and Craigslist though, yeah. I put ZipRecruiter in, and I think the segment that Zip goes after ... I will be carrying this forward, and I think it's a good point. I think Craigslist is a great ad and- Joel: Mark Zuckerberg came out pretty recently saying that one out of five users use their marketplace, which includes jobs. It includes buying and selling stuff as well, but with as many people as use Facebook, one out of five is a lot of people, so I would have been curious in maybe future surveys you can add Facebook because I'd be interested to see if that's on the list. And, I hear a lot of sales people, from vendors, a lot of companies are talking about posting jobs on Facebook, or how to get on Facebook, so that's just my two cents on future surveys that you might do. George: Yeah, that's good input. And just for the sake of the conversation, the Talent Board data included Facebook. They called out Facebook on its own, and it was ... It didn't perform ... It came below what is it? One, two, four, six ... Seventh on the list, seventh or eighth, underneath CareerBuilder and Monster. But it's up there at 16.8%, so it's definitely viable. Joel: Yeah, that's no slouch, right? George: Yeah. Chad: So we just, actually earlier today, got off a pod with Josh Wright who is an economist at iCIMS. So iCIMS is actually looking at leveraging their data in a much better way to, in some cases help the BLS, but also to help their clients. So I think when you were talking about, "Yeah there's aggregate data and it's hard to get around," I think ... Times are changing and we need to take a look at being able to create market differentiators for many of these platforms. And the data is available and it's there. So yes. I don't believe ... and this comes back from my days in working with RecruitSoft. Before it was Taleo, and we actually were testing some of our clients at direct employers. Most of the drop downs information that they received, which is pretty much like a survey when you're going through the application process versus the actual referral codes that we received; Totally off. Totally bullshit. So, it's just like, I don't trust human beings to be able to do the drop down, the pick, and even remember where they ate last, for goodness sakes. Chad: Give me hard data. And, I believe ... I believe that there are companies that are out there that are RPOs, that are stacking companies, there are obviously the iCIMS of the world, the CRMs and whatnot, that want to really differentiate in the market. You could prospectively help them do that, and to it with hard, real, data. Joel: Chad, do you think George's survey is just totally worthless? Chad: I am not a fan of using human engagement when it comes to this type of thing, when you know you have hard data. I mean, that's the big difference. If you want to poll people on their favorite pizza, yes, because I can't find that information anywhere unless I go ahead and mine their Facebook or some shit like that. But, at the end of the day, if you can go get the data, go get the fucking data. George: Yeah, but you're ... You're awfully emotional about this, so let me just calm you down a little bit. That data's really valuable- Chad: I like being able to provide good, solid evidence when people are making the choice, because companies don't do that now, they do it off of what the recruiters are telling them feels good, and it's all bullshit. George: But ... Let me point out two things. First off, I agree. I come out of the industry, and you know my history, both on the practitioner side and the vendor side. I've seen a lot of this data; I can validate that when candidates go through the hiring process, they usually get their source wrong. I don't know, it's some very large percentage of the time. Now, but here's the deal. I'm not asking them, "What did you use to get that job?" George: The way our market works, let's ... You like Google. I go to Google, I run a search, Google gives me the job on every, single place it's located in the results, and then I pick one to drill in, and I identify ... a lot of times I go right back to Indeed, that's not in the Google interface but it's down in the top results, so I could end up on Indeed. And then, if I apply through Indeed, or Monster, or whoever, I think I found the job on Indeed because I don't associate that to Google. But I'm asking, what did you use and where did you start? It's a little different. George: The other thing is, how is that aggregate data if it's based on those humans identifying their source? I know you're saying there's also the passively collected data now. It's ... I just don't think ... I hear you, and I would love to pull together some aggregate data and really do some of that work, but I'm not sure that ... in my experience, most of these platforms, they also have a hard time getting it right. I don't think it's all pristine. Chad: There is nothing that's perfect, I agree 100%. But, I would say the data on those platforms is much better than asking any monkey on the street. George: Yeah, okay. Joel: I'm going to put Chad in time out for a second. I'm going to ask a couple of questions about the survey that I hope are insightful and not aggressive at all. You mention in the survey that you were surprised that ZipRecruiter was so low, and I would agree with that particularly with all the advertisement that they do. What are your thoughts on why they came up so short this survey? George: Well, I'd be curious to know your thoughts, because you've spent a lot more time in the job board ecosystem/industry out there than I do. It was a reaction of surprise based on the fact that they've spent so much on advertising, and anecdotally, as I'm out doing ... and this was not a big enough sample size, but I've done these ... No, I'm talking about these round tables that I do where anecdotally employers are saying, "You know, ZipRecruiter is actually doing a good job for me lately." And so I expected that to be reflected in the results. I thought that may be the surprise, like, "Look at them." And maybe this is them trending. Continuing this work would start to show a trend line, and I'm curious about that. So, in my gut I feel like based on what I've heard, they're probably doing a little better than the numbers suggest, but you know, I wouldn't ... I didn't write that because I, this will make Chad happy, I didn't have data. I just had some feelings. Joel: I mean, my only guess would be that they brand themselves as, sort of, an hourly retail, restaurant service, and maybe the people that were surveyed that weren't in that demographic that would think about going to ZipRecruiter, but I know they're getting more into enterprise and more into jobs that we think about, so as this thing goes on I assume Zip will improve in terms of the number. Chad: I just see the model being different, don't you guys? George: Maybe. I don't know if, in the ... outside of our bubble where we know so much about these brands, and so much about what they do, when I've, again, anecdotally as I ask people what they're using, Indeed comes up a lot. Indeed comes up a lot. And these aren't active job seekers, these are people who, "Yeah, I went and looked on Indeed. I was curious, so I went and looked on Indeed." That's the definition of a passive job seeker, if there is one. If there is a passive job seeker is what I'm saying. George: I think Indeed has a hell of a brand, that Google helped them build. Chad: Yeah. George: And I think Zip- Joel: He's being generous. Or conservative. George: Yeah, on their backs, on their backs. Yeah, I get it. But Zip is, my sense is they're improving. When I hear their ads now, on satellite radio every 10 minutes, it's about employers and about technology, and about matching, and I've got to think that's going to break through to, potentially, a more sophisticated buyer. Joel: So last question, we'll get into some of the money news and what's going on there. You were, partly for click bait, and getting attention, but you were fairly tough on Google as a job resource. And, I would throw in there as Devil's advocate, Indeed's been around for 15 years, Google Jobs less than two. Or, let's just call it two? George: Yeah. Joel: They have the least relevant job results. I tend to think it's going to get a lot better pretty quickly because they're Google. Although you were sort of rough on them in the survey, would you at least admit, "Yeah, for a two year old solution, they're pretty good." Or no? George: They have the Google brand, which is not a job search brand. And I think, so they, by doing anything focused on this space, they have had a ... The impact they've had, even if you were to say the survey was gospel, which, I say it's a point in time I'm shining a light on, a data point right now, but that being said, if they focus and are committed to improving their experience, and if they spend money on marketing this thing beyond the brand piece we saw in the Superbowl, but really, really consistent marketing; Yeah. There's a question that the tables will tilt, because they're Google. Yes. No question. Joel: I mean, for me, and I've been a Google guy for a long time, and doing SEO and whatnot, and their MO is not really to advertise unless it's something huge, like Android phone or something really significant. So, to me, for them to drop a Superbowl ad on searching a job says that they're serious. It says that, to me, too, in five, six, seven, ten years, in this survey, they're going to come out a lot better than they are today. Chad: Yeah. Well, they also have to take a look at their brand because it's getting demolished in Europe, and then the actual lawsuits that are happening here, I think one was just dropped by the federal government. So, there's that whole brand rejuvenation that has to happen, not to mention kind of reaching down and making everybody feel good. I mean, helping veterans get jobs, who's not going to be happy about that? Obviously the veterans are, but everybody's going to be happy about that, so I mean it's a good play from a PR standpoint. Not to mention, as you'd said before, to try to lightly roll out Google for jobs. "Hey, you can find a job here, too." George: Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that, and I love what they did for veterans, and the message overall. They've got a big brand issue right now, and so many ... They had the employee walkout that happened, there's all sorts of ... The privacy stuff, all of that. Testifying in front of congress, all that stuff. They need people believing that Google cares, and jobs is, overall, is a good way, if they can be more effective in connecting people to jobs, for both the people who do advertise on Google, the employers, and the consumers. That's a great thing. I hope they do more. I hope they do more. But, there have been some of these bigger companies, like Salesforce has been rattling their saber all around our space for years, have little impacts, nothing happens. They disappoint me. Joel: George, you got kind of mad there for a second. Disappointment in Salesforce. I can't wait til Slack introduces job postings and you can get excited. George: Yeah, Slack's ... they're going to go public now. I'm ... They've got like tens of millions of active users. They're really interesting and one of the ecosystems HR tech needs to be more tied in to. There's a lot that's tied in there now, but that's where people work. A lot of people. Joel: And Chad and I would agree with you on that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Hey, we agree on something, everybody. That's cool. George: Yeah, all right. Chad: Sweet. Joel: Let's talk about money. George: Okay. Joel: So, a billion dollars you said? More money flowing in. Is it going to continue? When's the recession going to hit so I can sell all my shares in Slack after they go public? What are you seeing, and what do you have to report? George: So, money. In 2018, we saw just over four billion in VC in 2018. That's almost four times as much as we saw in 2017. Or, that I saw. That I'm able to track, and I don't know the better list. It's an incredible amount of money, and the big standout, just like it was last year, but even more so this year, are the job boards. Job boards, marketplaces. They saw, it was like 960 million, which is almost as much as we did in 2017 across all the categories in HR tech. Joel: Wow. George: Yeah, just crazy. Crazy. And, it's everything. It's the niche boards, it's small investments in niche boards, and it's big investments in, like, contingent workforces place, and providing additional services. So, that's the standout. The others are kind of predictable, like around the payroll market, and in other areas, platforms and such, but the job board stuff is nuts. And, Zip was one of them. 156 million went to Zip, and then there's a Chinese job board, who, they call themselves the LinkedIn of China, in my mind, 200 million. Joel: What niches are you seeing that are heating up? We've talked about, obviously, marijuana heating up in the job board space, but what other segments or locations, industries, are you seeing getting a lot of attention? George: You had an opportunity there to talked about like firing up, the cannabis market firing up, and you just ... You blew that. Joel: You see what I did there? Yeah. George: So, I'm seeing stuff across the board. A lot of focus though on, I don't know if it's a niche, but the what we used to call blue collar, 'non-white collar' is the term now. So I've seen a lot of that. I continue to see any freelancer, or gig, or contingent play gets ... seems like if you can hit one of those buzz words, and call yourself a marketplace, somebody's going to write you a check and see how far you can go. Joel: Throw some AI and data in there. Chad: Bot chain them. Joel: Bot chain, crypto. Yeah. Hey, Ultimate Software, you saw I'm sure, just went ... was public, went private, and sold for $11 billion. What do you think that means for the HR tech competitors out there? George: I was on their analyst call yesterday, and they can't say much. It's, "business as usual," and in a lot of ways it will be. The one thing they said that struck me, though, is their motivation for doing this was to get out of the quarterly microscope that Wall Street brings, and to be able to make investments in their R and D, and in their go to market that were better for customers long term, and might not appease Wall Street with a short term lens. So, that would say, if that's accurate, if ... I would say that it means you'll start to see them come out with more innovative stuff faster. So, they're doing a lot with AI, and predictive analytics, and things in that whole space; and I think you'd see more of that hit the roadmap faster. I think you'll see them get into the global market, potentially, more aggressively. Nothing about the deal smells bad to me. This private equity firm also has Chronos in their portfolio, and Chronos also went from public to private, years ago. George: Chronos continues to execute, and the founder's still there, and they're ... It seems, from the outside looking in, it looks like to have been a good move for them, so I would guess it's a patient source of capital, and we'll probably see ultimate ... be a little bit more competitive in the enterprise against Work Day, which is where they've been headed for a while. Chad: So, much different than the Apollo acquisition that we saw with CareerBuilder, because they've obviously been working much differently. Joel: Any other IPOs on the horizon that might surprise us, George? George: I don't have any IPOs, but I will tell you- Joel: Any guesses? George: Any guesses? Nope. But, here's what I do have for you. Watch your PR feed for about five or six new acquisitions and private equity deals, I would say, happening rapid fire, in our space very soon. I can't get into who, but you're going to see a- Joel: We want data here, George. Chad: Damn it George. George: I know, but I can't ... I've been sworn to secrecy, and- Joel: You could have at least thrown out an iCIMS or Entelo, with a guess of who'd go public, but you've got nothing, huh? George: On the public front? Well, iCIMS just got, they just had their PE deal last year. Joel: Was is ZipRecruiter? They're going to go public soon, right? George: Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I'm not seeing this. Joel: With the amount of money they've got, what else are they going to do? George: I mean, they just got it. They just got it. Chad: So you've got to give them time, Joel. You've got to give them time. Joel: I didn't say in the next 30 days. I was just kind of like, "Hey." Chad: You and your instant gratification, Joel. George: Oh, you want- Joel: I'm just going to have to nail my predictions, again, for another year. Basically. George: When you asked me about predictions about who's going to go public, I thought you meant, watch like, in the next, what, like 12 to 24 months? Sure, I think you hit on a couple of good players that could end up ... Who else is there that isn't already public that's got a platform play, that's 100 million in revenue or more? Is there ... You might see some of these middle-market vendors like on the HR side like the Namelys or someone, get from where they are today, in the next two years, and make a play like a Gusto, or someone like Gusto or Namely or some like that, but yeah, I don't see anybody imminent. Sorry. Joel: That's okay. I ask the questions, you give the answers. That's how this show works. Any thoughts on Dice? They weren't in your survey, either. Were they in the "Other" category? George: They didn't come up. Chad: Imagine that. Dice not coming up anymore. Joel: Shocking, because they suck. Joel: Sorry, that was live look at their innovation lab. Some new tech they've come up with. Feffer: Asshole. Joel: I think that's all we've got, George. We appreciate your time, man. Thanks for defending your shit, coming on the show like a big boy, and putting up with us. George: Well, hey, thanks for having me here. It's always fun, and I'm always happy to stand next to my work and talk about it. Joel: So, if listeners want to know more about you, where should they go? What should they read? George: Go to HRWins.com and you'll see all the latest reports right there, and an easy way to jump in by category and get to anything that interests you about HR tech, or investment in HR tech. Chad: We love you George. Joel: Thanks, George. Chad: We out. George: Love you guys. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my step-dad, the Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcast, so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. Tristen: The most important part is to check out our sponsors, because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive, shiny, gold pair that are extra because ... Well, I'm extra. For more, visit ChadCheese.com. #Survey #Uncommon #Indeed #GoogleforJobs #HRwins

Are employers gaming Glassdoor? Why is the TAtech Recruitment Marketing Summit going to be so kick ass? WTF is going on out there? Smashfly CEO Thom Kenney has an opinion that you have to hear. Oh, and he covers a lot more than that with the boys on this Nexxt exclusive. Enjoy. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:Disability Solutions helps businesses find qualified candidates with disabilities for their job postings. Announcer: This The Chad and Cheese brought to you in partnership with TATech. TATech, the Association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit tatech.org. Chad: Okay. Joel, quick question. Joel: Yeap. Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates or you're texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. And I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah, I know. I call it our Pavlovian dog reflex to text messaging. Joel: Yeah, that's probably why text messaging has a fricking 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: And a crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why The Chad and Cheese Podcast love Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: Love it. Chad: Yep. That's right. Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. Joel: If you're in talent acquisition, you want true engagement and Great ROI, that stands for return on investment folks, and because this is The Chad and Cheese Podcast, you can try your first Text2Hire campaign for just 25% off. Wow. Chad: Boom. So how do you get this discount? You're asking yourself right now. Joel: Tell them Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You go to chadcheese.com and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long URL to remember. Just go where you know, chadcheese.com and Nexxt with two Xs. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: We have 2/3s of the show being military men today. Real treat. We've got Thom Kenney, CEO of SmashFly . Thom, welcome to the show. Thom: Thanks Joel. Good to be here. Joel: Before that you were a CTO, right, of SmashFly? Thom: I was. Joel: You're an army guy and you're a Notre Dame grad. What else should we know about you? Thom: I actually sing opera. Joel: Really? Thom: I do. Yeah, I've sang with the Boston symphony for a little over a decade or so before I became CEO. Chad: How do we not know this? How did we not get some type of operatic with Guinness in Ireland? Last time we had you on the show, oh, that would've been fucking perfect. Joel: He's a very humble man. Although you can get him to stay up later for drinks if you say something like only marines stay out till 3:00 AM or something like ... He can be badgered in that way. Thom: I can. And I can be lured in by pizza. I like what. Joel: It's a little sucker. Chad: Oh dude. Yeah. Yeah, and that's good stuff. So speaking of conferences because that was during a TATech Conference. We've got another marketing, was it recruitment marketing summit coming up in Chicago, right? Joel: Chicago. Thom: Yeah. In just a few weeks. Joel: Chicago. Chad: Yeah, it is just a few weeks isn't it? I mean it's in April. So SmashFly is like the headliner on this bitch. So why'd you guys want to get involved? Tell us a little bit more about how this all came to be. Thom: Well I tell you the experience that we've had with TATech just in general. Well the TATech team has been really, really positive. And when we look at some of the conferences that we've been to, some of the insights that we've gained and also that we've been able to give, it's a really good audience for us to talk to. And when we looked around the landscape, you've got conferences that are in Europe, you've got conferences here in the US, you've got the AI conference that's coming up in Arizona in just a couple of weeks. Thom: We looked at this from the perspective of where is SmashFly really in this whole ecosystem? And part of that recruitment marketing platform, part of what recruitment marketing is, as we look to the future, especially as we look to push this idea of how we're leveraging automation and personalization to really create great candidate experiences. We thought what a perfect platform for us to be able to share with the industry where we think things are going and invite some really great folks working with the TATech Team to really put on a great conference specifically focused on the recruitment marketing side. Joel: And just as a side note, the show really took off once they started featuring Chad and Cheese at the conferences, but that's neither here nor there. Chad: He's being humble. He's being humble. Joel: Thom the last time you spoke, it's almost been about a year since we were in Dublin together. You've been CEO for almost roughly a year now. Tell me about what you've seen, what kind of changes have really stood out to you in the last year in recruiting technology? Thom: I think one of the biggest things that we've seen, especially in the last year, is you look to all of the small point solutions that are really coming about to help build that automation or that personalization, whether it's conversational AI, chat bots, whether it's sourcing, whether it's intelligent interviewing, psychometric analysis. There's been a lot of movement in the industry. And what I think is most interesting about it, because like you said, I was a CTO before I was a CEO, to geek out on some of this tech is phenomenal. The challenge that we have is that it's not getting easier to talk about the tech and to talk about the value of the tech. Thom: It's almost getting a little bit harder because the tech is becoming more advanced. There's more that you can do with it and demonstrating a business proposition to the economic buyer has been one of those things that we and a lot of our friends that we're partners with had been spending a lot of time with to really demonstrate, this isn't just a really cool, neat little trick of technology. It actually moves the needle for the business because at the end of the day, that's what everybody wants. Chad: That's one of the things that really kind of pisses me off because I geek out over this tech that's coming out. But the thing is it's not being positioned appropriately. It's like, look at all this cool stuff? Look at this glitter? Look at this glam? But we're not seeing business solutions and there are business solutions that are actually baked into them, but it seems like there are way too many product people that are like trying to shape message and not sales and marketing people who are trying to shape message. Thom: Well, what do you want there to shape the message? Do you want somebody that's willing just to sell you anything just because it happens to be a feature? Or do you want a real deep dive from a product marketing team? When you talk about a SWOT analysis, when you're talking about a market analysis, when you talk about a growth opportunity, the tools that are being built with only a sales and marketing focus are going to be vaporware. They're going to be gone. The tools that are being built in partnership with some of the best companies in the world, those are the ones that are actually going to have staying power because they're being built to a business need that's being articulated by the business, not by the neat little shiny object that somebody is going to grab and look out for a little while and then toss in the trash. Joel: Yeah, one of the things that stood out to me in Dublin was you saying that companies were calling you saying we need a chatbot, but not really knowing why they needed a chatbot. So have we at least evolved to a point where companies know why they need a chatbot? Thom: A lot of our customers are, and the interesting thing is that they're articulating a business case that really helps them move that needle. Because if you think about the history of the industry has really looked at how do we optimize what the recruiter and the sourcer are doing? How do we decrease expenses? How do we decrease our time to hire? And these metrics that are important. But the reality is, what you're really trying to do is grab the talent and the hiring managers and bring them together more quickly and the right talent to the right hiring managers at the right time is one of the most important things. Thom: What we've started to see, especially in the past six months in some of our sales cycles is customers are asking us very, very specific details about how will this chatbot, this conversational AI transform the experience for the candidates? And when we talk to those customers about what they're looking for, we had a variety of different pieces of feedback. Either people just have too much volume and they need people to get engaged without always talking to the recruiter on the phone and other folks are well, we deal with almost all passive candidates who never want to pick up the phone to talk to a recurrence. So it's a great way just to create that initial interest in the organization. Thom: Because when we think about recruitment marketing and to some extent the ATS and through the process of discovery all the way through to higher, there's really those three top tiers of that bucket. You've got to discover the talent or discover the company, that's on both sides of the equation. You've got to generate some awareness of what the value proposition is, whether that's for an opportunity or whether that's for a mission statement for a company. And then finally you get the interest and the interest is where the call to action is to actually apply and get into that process. Thom: We talked to our customers a lot about where do you need to tweak your model? Do people know who you are? Great. Do they know anything about you? They don't. Okay, that's an area that we can help you with. And when you link all these pieces together between social engagement, email campaigns, the way we do career marketing sites and chatbots, you bring that together in a holistic view. You demonstrate a value proposition that really is both measurable and actionable that makes a difference for a company. Chad: We've been talking about this new survey that came out that says 75% of recruiters have no confidence in most of the technology that's out there today, which means the new AI, the chatbots, so on and so forth, which means it's going to be hard from an adoption standpoint, which is exactly what a company like yours needs. You need that adoption. Just from your standpoint, how is Emerson helping defeat that no competence kind of feeling from a recruiter? How does a chatbot like Emerson do that? Thom: It is hard to overcome that because you have a lot of solutions out there that regardless of the industry that are just bad. I mean I remember the early days of Verizon trying to use the chat bot that they had onboard. I mean, literally wanting to throw my laptop across the room because it was so stupid. I mean no intelligence in it whatsoever. And so a lot of that experience for the recruiters, they see chatbots, they see conversational AI across the industries and it isn't just recruiting. So when we talk to these folks, the way Emerson interfaces with a CRM, I think is one of the most important aspects of what it is that we're delivering. Thom: You're not talking about two completely separate systems. You're talking about an integrated platform where the conversations flow into the candidate relationship management system in a way that's seamless. Now the interesting thing about it is when we get the pushback from folks about, well, this isn't worthwhile and this isn't something that we can really rely on. Then we get into a scenario where we can actually show them in real world examples where this is actually making a difference and we're pretty transparent too about this is what it can do and this is what it can't do. If you want it to be able to answer any question in the world, it's not going to happen. Natural language processing, semantic analysis, it's really, really good. But most of our customers don't have a million or a million and a half dollars that they want to spend to create the perfect chatbot that's going to answer every question on the planet. Thom: The question to them becomes, what are the biggest pain points that you have? We're the mundane tasks that you do every day and what are those tactical touchpoints that really make a difference for the talent. And if you hone in on what that messaging is and each company is different, but you hone in on what that messaging is and it can actually be impactful. One of the other things that I think is important about the way that we've implemented Emerson is it's not just a plug and play kind of chatbot. It's one that has the ability to interface with a human on the back end without ever knowing that there's a human there interfacing with that person on the front line. And an interesting stat that we have is a vast majority of people that interface with Emerson say thank you or some other version of thanks at the end of the conversation. Chad: People are polite. Thom: That shows an empathetic connections. They're very polite to the chatbot. Because I can tell you which ... Right. With chatbots that don't work, I can probably show you some of the ending comments of those. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Fuck you, you saw. Thom: Exactly. Joel: Hey Thom, we've talked about chatbots here in the early minutes of the show, which is fun. But you guys offer quite an array of services and solutions. What else is hot on your menu list? What are companies really interested in and maybe what's on the future development map for you guys going into 2019 here? Thom: There's really two things I think that fall into those categories of what you're talking about. The first is what we call Pipeline Intelligence. A lot of companies are looking to identify what are those metrics, what are those KPIs that tell me whether or not my recruiting teams are actually achieving the goals we want them to achieve? And time to hire isn't necessarily the only KPI. Thom: As we look to build out the Pipeline Intelligence that digs a little bit deeper in all the data points we have, that's something we want to help fuel the decision making process both for the recruiters that are on the ground and then for the economic buyers that are trying to move their talent acquisition organizations into the next generation. Thom: The second thing that I think is really interesting and we're hearing a lot about and that we're formulating in 2019, is Internal Mobility. It is an entirely untapped pool of talent that most companies just don't pay any attention to. And if you think about those stats that we've been talking about in 2018, 12% of candidates are active and 88% are passive. The passive candidates, guess what? A lot of them are already in your organization, especially if you've got 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 employees. Thom: That marketing manager that's ready for that promotion to director, that engineer that's ready for that senior engineer position, or even that person who is looking to get a step up into the VP or higher, if they don't know about the internal opportunities that are there, it's hard to mine the internal employees that are already engaged with your company that already know your value proposition, that are already committed to your strategic growth. Identify those folks, show them the opportunities that are there, engage and nurture them just like you do outside talent and you'll have a great uptick in the ability to reduce some of the costs that you have first because you don't have to retrain these people. You don't have to onboard these people and you're keeping them engaged in the business and giving them great working opportunities. Joel: I didn't hear any virtual reality in that answer, so I'm not sure what kind of future SmashFly has. Chad: All right. Just go ahead. Let's go onto the next part. Last thing we need is a sex robots coming up next. Joel has this thing. Thom: Joel does works at home. Chad: Are you taking your, your current tool sets that you which have been focused outwardly on really active candidates, or trying to pull active candidates and then turning them inward is that what it is that you have all these product sets in place already and you're just turning them onto the employee base versus external? Thom: Absolutely. It's a little bit different of a marketing techniques. Your messaging is a little bit different because these are already employees in your organization. But think of talent, network pools. We all talk about this. SmashFly is always bragging. We've got recruiters from 69 countries in our system and we've got people from 180 countries. I mean billions and billions of data points in our system. It's pretty much just another talent network pool that exists inside the company. Thom: You've got talent pools for say advanced technology people and you've got talent pools for marketing people and for salespeople, this is another talent pool that you can leverage inside of the SmashFly platform that says, here's an audience that I want to message to about some really great opportunities that we have. It's not a huge technological or fundamental shift for a company to think about things that way. Joel: Thom, we've been talking about marketing is recruiting and recruiting is marketing for a long time and as I look at your site, it looks like Marketo, it looks like HubSpot. So is the rate at which recruiters are becoming marketers on pace with what you would hope it would be? Is a little slower than you thought or is it even faster maybe than what the market would perceive? Thom: I think it's a little faster than the way the market would perceive. And the reason I say that is because I believe that the folks who are doing the recruiting are picking up the skills for marketing as they're using tools like ours. It's one of those things that just your experiential knowledge of doing a task builds a core competency and a skill set. So for me, people may not know that they're becoming marketers, but as they use our tools and as they get better at using our tools or any tools that are in recruitment marketing, it's helping build that experiential skill set. Thom: But I think interestingly if we go back to your comment about virtual reality and what we would do with that and maybe we're going to go down without know. Virtual reality for like interviewing is awesome. But look at where we've come as a society, right? You've got virtual reality and people who are wearing the goggles and then that damn Pokémon thing where people were walking out in the middle of cars because they were chasing the ... That's augmented reality, right? Chad: Yep. Thom: If you think about the augmentation of technology, we can think about that exactly inside of recruitment marketing and the interviewing process and the hiring process exactly the same way. We're not trying to eliminate the human touch, which is so important in engaging talent. What we're trying to do is we're augmenting the work that these folks do every day and we're helping them do it better in a way that actually delivers better results for them, for their group, but then also for their companies. It's that augmented technology and the intelligence in that augmentation that I think really moves the needle. Thom: Do you need to go back to the 1950s in Mad Men and make sure all of the recruiters know exactly how to advertise a product? I don't think so. The augmentation of the technology is going to empower the recruiters to do that recruiting so they will become marketers in a way specific to their area of expertise without actually having to go back and like do a master's degree in recruitment marketing or do some crazy training segment. It's going to come as a natural evolution of the technology and a natural evolution of the industry. Chad: Okay, so candidates are saying thank you to chatbots, right? They feel like they're getting a great experience with chat bots. There's no human interaction there. And from my standpoint, I love that because we've given candidates just shitty experiences and black holes over the last 20 years. Asshole. Bastards. So do we really need that human touch? Because to be quite frank, the humans are the ones who fucked a lot of this up in the first place. And with platforms like yours, you can get into drip campaigns. You can get into very smart, sequenced types of events to make it so much easier, so much more efficient to be able to have a great candidate experience and also draw in those very highly touted candidates and have them, I guess nurtured by the time they get to the application process or the interview process. Thom: Well look at it this way, dating apps, right? The dating app is something- Chad: No. No. We're not talking about Tinder. Thom: Yes. Yes. We're talking about dating apps. Look if you're in a dating app- Joel: Tinder for jobs. Thom: The dating app is using AI and machine learning. The dating app is engaging you at a level where you don't have to actually interface with someone. Chad: Yeah. Thom: Now, most people other than Joel, are going to want to actually meet a person face to face and have that conversation. If you're dating and you're looking for that companionship. When we look at chatbots, conversational AI, email campaigns, social campaigns, whatever it is, there is a point in time where you want to cross that threshold and you want that human engagement. Thom: The idea behind the technology of creating these connections between talent and companies and hiring managers isn't about just doing it in some very detached or semi realistic way. It's about a way to create a level of engagement so that the relationship that you're developing becomes stronger at each step in the path. So you create a really good engagement with a conversational AI tool like Emerson and that takes the next level to create a really good human to human engagement with a recruiting manager, which then creates an even better experience when you sit down for that interview with a hiring manager. Thom: Because think about it. If you walk into an organization and you're ready for an interview and you're thinking about this opportunity and maybe three or four other opportunities. If you're a company that's leveraging this technology, what do you want? Do you want somebody who's just coming in there and sitting down and wants to learn more about you and your company and what the jobs are? No, because that's a waste of everybody's time. If you can do it in a way where somebody sits down across from you at that table or that desk or at that coffee shop and they're already engaged with that company because of the experiences that they've had and they're already excited about that company, then the hiring manager's job becomes much easier because now you've got a scenario where you can truly look for fit. You can truly look for, is this the right person for the organization and then what do I do to continue this very positive experience all the way through their onboarding into their first six, nine months, one year, three year of employment. Thom: When you see these statistics that come out and say it's just great, great feedback from companies. I say when you've got that level of engagement is very, very positive for the company and for the employee. So it's just a matter of where you start doesn't mean where you have to end up. It just means that where you start as it leads to a progression of deepening relationships and deepening experiences, the better the outcomes are going to be for the companies and for the people that are coming on board. Joel: And speaking about positives for a company. Wall Street Journal recently reported that certain companies were potentially gaming their Glassdoor reviews. Chad and I were kind of torn on where we fell on whether this was really happening or not. Do you have any opinions on gaming Glassdoor? Whether you think it's happening? You guys sort of sit at the, sort of the corner of branding and technology. Where do you sort of side on that issue and how does Glassdoor and reviews play into sort of your business if at all? Thom: It's absolutely happening. Firsthand knowledge. Absolutely happening. Chad: Told You. Thom: Yeah, it's one of those things that Glassdoor ... Glassdoor, it's a great company. It's doing a great service in many ways because people otherwise don't have a way to look at a reputation of a company, right? And SmashFly, we pay attention to what people are saying. And quite honestly we had an interview candidate that didn't have a good experience and we reached out to that candidate after seeing the Glassdoor review and I posted something on Glassdoor to apologize and to say we would love to talk to you about your experience so that we can make this better for everyone. Thom: I think it's a tool for people looking for opportunities and for companies to address that. Joel: Do you have real world ... So you said you know firsthand people doing this. How are they doing it exactly? Are they just saying, "Hey, leave good reviews." Or incentivizing it somehow? Thom: I don't believe, at least in my experience, it hasn't been true that there's an incentive to actually go out and do it. But the strong power of persuasion and suggestion is it's out there in the market with different industries as well. Just having seen it from where I've been in the past. Joel: Fair enough. Also the news recently, Ultimate Software just sold for $11 billion. Thom: That is the machine of a combat. Joel: We have LinkedIn at 26, so people are still more valuable than the technology. But clearly the technology is worth quite a bit of money. I assume you thought about your own business and where you guys fit in the ATS marketplace. But what do you think the $11 billion buyout means for the ATS market as well as your business? Thom: When we think about the types of deals that folks are doing today and everyone's talking about whether or not there's going to be consolidation and growth and what the PEs are during and leveraging debt. There's a whole lot of action that seems to be going on right now in this was just ... I mean it blew out of the water what the numbers are. But I think what it says is there's a future to where these technologies are going. Because if you're a PE or a VC, you're not buying what the technology is today. You're buying what the potential is. Whether that's the potential of a leadership team, a potential of a technology or a potential of a market. You're not buying for today. Thom: It's the Gretzky quote, right? "You don't skate to where the puck is, you skate to where the puck is going." So when we think about what that means for our industry, there's so much going on with recruitment marketing and how recruitment marketing is bleeding over into the ATS. The ATS is in the RM Tools are getting closer and closer and closer because companies are recognizing the value of that engagement across the board all the way to that point of hire. So when we look at Ultimate and what Ultimate is doing, and then some of the other ways that companies like Greenhouse are starting as a recruitment marketing tool with an ATS kind of working together from the get go. Folks are seeing where talent engagement 2.0 is really coming. It's getting to a point where your entire engagement experience is going to transcend the ATS, and I think in a few years beyond that even transcend into the employee experience as well. Thom: A lot of these technologies are going to be leveraged across the board from the moment you discover a particular person to the moment you're interfacing with someone who's been at the company for five years and you're letting them know about a great opportunity they have about a senior marketing position in California. So this is, I think, indicative of people with money saying this industry is still growing. This industry still has so much potential. And when we were doing some recent studies last year about what our market is and what our market cap is, we look at like IDC and like what is it the $8 billion or $9 billion of total addressable market that exists for not just the job boards and the point solutions, but also for the CRMs and the ATSs. That's huge. Thom: We'll get about a $2 billion market point for companies like ours to be able to go to. And then you look at what we've actually been addressing in the market. The feedback that we're getting both from studies and then some anecdotal that we've been doing on our own is we're really only about a quarter at penetration. So 23% to 24% penetration in the market today. That's a huge amount of room for all of us to grow. And when we think about it at SmashFly, we're less concerned about this just craziness of like war time stance, we're going to kill everybody. The reality is we've got so much opportunity just to make this pie bigger. And if we're making the pie bigger, everybody's slices get bigger, so there's plenty of room a lot of companies to do really well in this space. Chad: And we're going to close up with a TAtech going to close up with TATech. If you're a TA leader or a TATech leader, somebody who's a vendor that's out there, you're a founder, a CEO or what have you. What should they expect out of TATech leadership summit on recruitment marketing? What should they expect and what do you really want to personally, not to mention as the summit address to that audience? Thom: The potential. I still believe there's a lot of untapped potential in recruitment marketing and the way that it interfaces across the entire talent pipeline. And if you think about the way the technology is invigorating a lot of these talent engagement and talent acquisition teams, that takeaway I think could be huge from focusing on recruitment marketing. It's not just about putting a technology in place to optimize and save costs. It's about putting a technology in place to move the needle through your entire business. Where do you need to hire? Where are you not getting the right types of people? How are you losing people to your competition? How are you tracking folks? How are you measuring your success? How are you demonstrating your value proposition to the business owners in your own organization? Thom: It's those types of things that when we think about the huge potential of recruitment marketing across the landscape, when you take some of the feedback that you'll get from this conference, whether it's some of the working studies that we do, whether it's some of the talks that we do, the case studies, there's so much information that you can leverage back in your own organization to really move the needle. Joel: Good answer, Thom. Chad: That's good. TATech Leadership Summit on recruitment marketing, and again, every time we look at these lists of what's top of the list for talent acquisition leaders. Recruitment marketing is there because they understand their candidate experience, their handling of the process has sucked over the years and this one of the big, at least I'd say top three or top two that we always see. So in April, April 17th and 18th, you'll have an opportunity in Chicago to check it out, to be a part of a summit. Go to tatech.org. Just click on events and register to see Thom's smiley face talk about recruitment, marketing and a bunch of TA leaders as well. Chad: Thom Kenney everybody. Thom thanks for joining us. For those who want to know more about you or SmashFly, where should they go? Thom: Smashfly.com. Chad: Too easy. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Stella: Hi, this is Stella Cheesman. Thanks for listening to the Cheese and Chad Podcast, or at least that's what I call it. Anyway, make sure you subscribe on iTunes, that that silly Android thingy or wherever you listen to podcasts. Be sure to give buckets of money to our sponsors. Otherwise I may have to take that coal mining job I saw on monster.com. We out. Chad: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Before we go, remember when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing? Joel: Yeah. You know all about reflexes. And then I brilliantly tied it to text messages, 97% open rate. Then I elegantly tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh Chad. I can be elegant. Can't I? Chad: Whatever, man. I know it's redundant. You already heard about Text2Hire, but you're still not using Text2Hire from Nexxt. I know man. Joel: Come on man. Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again, this was all by Elegant Design. It's all about Text2Hire and it's all about Nexxt. Joel: And Elegant Design. So go to chadcheese.com. Click on the Nexxt logo and get 25, yeah, I said 25% off your first Text2Hire campaign. Engage better, use Text2Hire from Nexxt. Two Xs. Announcer: Thanks to our partners at TATech. The Association for talent acquisition solutions. Remember to visit tatech.org. #Smashfly #CEO #TAtech #chatbots #Nexxt #Marketing #Engagement #ATS #CRM #RMP

Damn my head still hurts... It was Super Bowl hangover week, so the boys discuss takeaways from advertising's biggest day, including winners and losers, but not the game because it totally sucked. - Microsoft goes right for the heart strings - Google talks job search - Monster Layoffs - Will Video kill the Job Board Star? - Craigslist is now a billion dollar money-making machine - Mattermost is looking to squeeze Slack's market - Is Walmart saving middle America? Buckle up and visit our sponsors, Sovren, JobAdX and Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions is your sourcing and recruiting partner for people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Give it to me. Joel: Hidey-ho, boys and girls. Welcome to HR's most dangerous podcast, aka the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm Joel Cheeseman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, layoffs. Layoffs. Layoffs. Layoffs at Monster. Craig and that list of his, well, he's one rich son of a gun. And we review shit from the Super Bowl. The podcast, by the way, is guaranteed to be more entertaining than the Super Bowl, by the way. Chad: Easily. Joel: Stay tuned, we'll be right back after a word from JobAdX JobAdX: This is the sound of job search. This is the sound of job search defeat. JobAdX: Ah. JobAdX: Job search can be frustrating. Job seekers run into the same irrelevant ads. Page after page, before they find a match. When job seekers aren't engaged, conversions are low. Budgets are wasted, jobs go unfilled. No one wins. But job search doesn't have to be defeating. JobAdX's smart search exchange references 400 data points to select the most targeted jobs, and delivers what job seekers really want to premium ad units across our network. JobAdX: Score. JobAdX: That's the sound of JobAdX's relevant results, attracting a qualified candidate and filling your job faster. Find out how to improve your job advertising campaigns, and increase candidate attraction and engagement by emailing us at, joinus@jobadx.com. JobAdX. Together, we can save job search. Joel: Score. Chad: I really think that when they talk about job search defeat, they have to remember they're on the Chad and Cheese podcast. The dude should go, "Fuck." Joel: Oh man. It's a rainy, crappy day in Indiana. Chad: It is. Yeah, you're gonna have to get your frickin' boat out, dude. Joel: What's your favorite rain inspired song? Chad: Rain inspired? I have- Joel: Song about rain. Chad: Song about rainy days and Mondays always get me down? Joel: The Carpenters. Chad: The Carpenters. Joel: Wow. Chad: There you go, baby. Joel: I'm gonna go Purple Rain, little purple madness for Thursday morning. Anyway, the level might be low on energy, with all this rain and nastiness. But let's get to shout outs. Chad: Do it. Roy Mauer over at SHRM, hey buddy. Thanks for suggesting the topic of recruiter ethics. That actually gave Joel and me an opportunity to reach out to Jim Stroud, bring him on, and if you haven't listened to the podcast, we talk about recruiter ethics. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Automation, and Jim's paranoia. I think he says "Duck, duck, go" about 37 fucking times. Joel: Yeah, and aluminum headgear. Four or five references to that. You know, Roy is jockeying for the position of number one fanboy. And speaking of number one, we're looking for new t-shirts. Chad: Yes. Joel: Sponsored by Emissary.ai. We've got four pretty good designs that users, viewers, listeners can vote for. Chad: Go to chadcheese.com, click on our logo, and it takes you right to the voting area. Joel: I guess we're gonna run that voting for about another half week or week. Chad: Yeah, as long as we feel good about it. Joel: Yeah. If there's clear winner, we'll close it down and get those shirts made. Chad: Yeah. And if it's not the one I like, we're gonna keep it open for fucking ever. Joel: Exactly. Chad: Shout out to Tris Revill, who said he was dead impressed after getting finally getting around to listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Thanks, Tris. Joel: And you might need some therapy, but that's a different discussion. I'm gonna go rapid fire here, George Laroque, Jim Stroud, and Thom- Chad: Kenney. Joel: Spacing on his name, yeah Tom Kenny, who we interviewed, and also Josh Wright from [Cims, their head economist. We've just been cranking out quality podcasts, and this week was really great, so be on the lookout for those coming up soon, but some great topics and some really smart people come on our show for some reason. Chad: Yeah. Well, it's nice because we're knuckleheads. Shout outs, and this will probably, probably be the only one ever, so ... get ready. To the recruiting animal. He actually dug up, like in the web archives, our first podcasting gold moment, back in 2008, when we did our very first podcast. When you had to listen to it on your PC, because you didn't have podcasts on your phone back then. Joel: Did it actually have the old embed code, on that site? Chad: It didn't. The hipster, the hipster [crosstalk 00:05:16] like dumped all that shit, yeah. Joel: So you couldn't listen to it, it was just there? Chad: He was just proving that ... that we had actually, I think at one time, compared our show, our first shows, to recruiting animal, and saying that it was less WWE style. Joel: I'd agree with that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So was he, was he dissing us, or like, giving us props? Chad: No, I think he's giving us props. I mean, it doesn't matter, I'm gonna say he was giving us props anyway, so. Joel: I mean, he's very angry, so I never expect to hear anything complimentary from him, so. Chad: And he's Canadian, right? I mean, how the fuck is he, I mean, he's like the only angry Canadian. Joel: They can get angry, trust me. I won't go any further than that. But they, some of them do have tempers. Chad: Noted. Noted. Joel: Some of them hold grudges, too. But that's a different story. Chad: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So thanks also to Josh Vesley, for letting us know that Indeed does, in fact, have pot jobs. Or pot job listings, rather. Joel: Yes. As does Monster, as does Zip Recruiter, as does most of them. So, so this is strange. So I did a little bit of investigation, because it's still illegal, right. It's still a federal law that pot is not legal, right? So I went to Zip Recruiter, I went to Indeed, although they didn't reply. Shocker. And then Monster. And yes, they all post pot jobs, and they don't have a policy against it, but then I asked, okay well, if I'm in Nevada, and want to advertise, you know, my brothel for like escort positions ... no, I'm being serious, right? Like it's legal in Nevada- Chad: Yeah, it is. Joel: But it's federally illegal. So technically I should be able to post my prostitution job wherever it's legal, based on what their reply was. But they do not, they do not advertise prostitution jobs on these job sites. So it's a little bit of a double standard, where, you know, they're having their cake on the weed side, but then protecting their ass, pun intended, on the prostitution side. So I'm gonna try to, I'm gonna, I'm interested in this. I'm gonna try to call the feds or somebody, and say like, why is it legal for them to post pot jobs on their websites? And see if I can get an answer. But they all do it. Chad: Dude. Joel: And they all have legal teams that say it's okay, so something in the law makes it okay, although I think it's a little bit of a double standard. Things that make you go, hmm. Chad: Yeah, you're digging deep there, man. So did you see this Fortnite like concert that happened, like last week or what have you? There like, over a million people showed up for a concert at Fortnite. Did you see this? Joel: I saw the story. I'm not on Fortnite. My son is addicted, so I see him today, I'm gonna ask him, like did he go or did he hear about it. Fortnite is genius. Chad: Yeah. Joel: My son's spending his allowance on stupid shit, virtual stuff, but this concert was genius, right? Like so, you're selling, I guess they sold sponsorships to the concert, people attended. Chad: Yes. Joel: And then they fought each other after the concert was over or something, but like this whole virtual second life, version 2.0 or whatever, is pretty cool. So I don't, I saw the story, I think it's cool, but I don't know a ton about it. Chad: It's very Ready Player One-ish, right. Which is really cool, but so I threw out there, was like, cool, we should do something on Fortnite with Chad and Cheese, and Birch, over at TextRecruit, he said he wants us to have a Fortnite battle royale. Which would be really cool, because we could have startups literally fight each other, in Fortnite. Joel: Considering our audience, the number of people who would actually understand that, and get it, would be pretty low. Chad: We are branching out, my friend. Joel: However, virtual battles against startups in our industry is a pretty cool idea. Chad: I do like it. Joel: Yeah. And by the way, Ready Player One was virtual reality, which you hate on, so the fact that you said that means you secretly love virtual reality. Chad: I secretly love virtual reality. I just don't love the thought of putting on goggles and looking like an idiot while doing it. Joel: Hey, we're all gonna look like idiots. It's all good. Chad: It's okay. Are you done with shout outs? Joel: I'm done with shout outs, and it was nice [segue 00:09:42] actually, to talk about video games, because we're gonna go into the Super Bowl and talk about some of the ads that we liked, around employment, kinda sorta. Chad: Kinda sorta. Joel: So, so I give you props, your prediction on the score was closer than mine. But yeah, congratulations, I think your prediction of 14 to 28 was closer than my 31 to 35 prediction. Chad: Yeah, I thought 14 to 28 was just, I was trying to go lower than yours. Joel: Yeah, you were playing the Price Is Right game. Chad: Yeah. And that was just, it was fucking horrible. And the ads, for the most part, were horrible as well. We do have a couple that we wanted to talk about that, you know, that are from companies that are now in our industry. But yeah, the ads, that was horrible. That was literally horrible. It made me not want to watch football for a while. Joel: I don't believe that. But yes, I would agree that the ads were pretty forgettable. I did like the Tom Brady handing Baker Mayfield his rings, and saying, "Hold these for me", was pretty good. But there were a few ads that were on the line of sort of employment related-ish, and some that were definitely directly employment related-ish. Joel: Let's start with Microsoft. You have some strong feelings about that one. Chad: Well, I mean, we're seeing more of these pull at your heartstrings commercials lately, and Microsoft, in this commercial, grabs those strings, yanks them out of your, your heart out of your chest with the we all win commercial, which stars kids with disabilities. Really cool. One of the dads, right out of the gate, says, you know, playing video games is his son's way of interacting with his friends, because he can't physically interact. Go out and play Frisbee, or football, or what have you. But playing video games with their friends makes kids happy. I mean, I remember when I had my, the Atari, or hell, back in Pong days. Dude, friends would come over, we would fucking love it, dude. Chad: But these kids, the regular controllers just didn't work for them. So one of the kids actually said, you know, I never thought it was unfair that these controllers really didn't work for us, I just thought that it's the way that it was, and that it would never change. Then, here comes the heartstrings moment. Then, they start unboxing the Microsoft adaptive controllers, and all the kids are like, wait. You mean, you actually thought of us? Like they're not outsiders anymore. Chad: And from that standpoint, you know, as we take a look at this as human beings, and as we take a look at this as human resources, you know, this is a strong message that accommodations should be universal for everybody. And to make it easier for individuals with disabilities to actually get jobs, to be able to do whatever we do, just makes a whole hell of a lot of sense. And they did this with kids, which obviously just pulls at you pretty hard. Joel: Yeah, of course, my snarky ass thought, you know, every level of ability should be able to sit on the couch and get fat. But. Chad: We already have enough of that. Joel: Because my kid plays nonstop. And it destroys me. Anyway, I love these commercials, although they weren't employment related specifically. I think that obviously people like working for companies that do good. Chad: Yes. Joel: And we'll talk a little bit about that in another segment on the show, but you talk about millennials, and we do a lot on the show, and how much they want to make a difference, they want to work for something that means something bigger than themselves. And these ads aren't directly recruiting related, but people want to work for companies that are doing good things. And indirectly- Chad: You can get behind that. Joel: It's gonna be a great recruiting video, for sure. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. You can get behind that brand. I mean, who's looking at it and saying, oh they're doing stuff for individuals with disabilities, I mean nobody's doing that. They're like, oh, that's cool as shit. Joel: Yeah, like I want to be a part of that. Chad: Yeah, exactly. So that, I agree. And that, from my standpoint, your brand is your employment brand. I don't believe that there is an quote unquote employment brand, per se. Your brand, this, that what you saw in that video, that was your fucking employment brand. Joel: Yeah. A little bit like, it reminded me of the Audi commercial a couple years ago where the guy's- Chad: Oh, dude. Joel: Daughter is doing the soap box race. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Like, what am I supposed to tell my daughter, you know. And you and I both have daughters, I'm choking up here as I'm thinking about it, but like, yeah. I want to do some good for the world, and my employer should be a vessel to do that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The other ad that we wanted to talk about was, it was great because my neighbor across the street was in the navy, and he came over for some beers and food, and to watch the game. And this is the Google vet jobs ad that came on. They start showing these numbers, these sequences of numbers, and I, as a not military guy, have no idea what these numbers mean. Chad: Yep. Joel: And my neighbor's like, oh yeah, that's navy. Like, oh yeah, that's such and such. And he gets it. So anyone, I assume anyone that's in the military automatically saw that, and said military. And they connected with it. So as he's saying that, I'm thinking, oh shit, I bet this is the Google vet job search ad. So sure enough, it is. And I thought it was brilliant, in that it connected with military people, and not like the outsider, so it was sort of that, you know, we speak that secret language that only military people speak. Chad: Yep. Joel: And then obviously, most people have a military person in their life, so it connected on that level. Again, Google's doing good, they're helping vets get jobs, so you have that sort of emotional good theme as well. And by the way, they also advertised in that segment, like, you can search for jobs on Google. Chad: Yes. Yes. Two points carried very far on that. Number one, this is great fucking PR. Who doesn't love freedom, and our veterans, right? Hell yeah, Google. Hell yeah. Right. Fuck yeah. And then number two, they're slow rolling promotion that Google now does job search, right? So they're not just getting into it and saying find a job on Google. They're like, they're doing it behind a brand that everybody's like, oh yeah, that's kick ass. That is frickin' awesome. Oh wait a minute, you can look for jobs on Google? Chad: So they're starting, it looks like they're starting to kinda slow roll this thing, which is really cool. We could have a whole segment on, you know, the military occupation code crossover and how that actually works, and if it's worth a shit, whatnot. But we're not gonna get into that. Joel: Yeah. And I also think anyone who is suspicious that Google isn't serious about this whole jobs thing, you know, dropping two and a half [mill 00:16:33] or whatever it is for a 30 second spot in the Super Bowl should convince you otherwise. And by the way, Google doesn't advertise, historically, that much, unless it's Android or some big sort of projects. Or, so the fact that they did it for jobs, part of their search functionality, is pretty special for people that are watching Google. Chad: Amazing PR, and amazing way to start to slow roll a promotion of, hey guess what mother fuckers? Yeah, we're doing job search. Joel: So another ad that was very subtly employment related, you might not have even remembered seeing it, was for Bumble, the dating app, staring Serena Williams. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It was a pretty good ad, and then at the end, it showed all the different Bumble ... I don't know, services? So Bumble, the dating app, is obviously the most well known. But they have Bumble BFF, where you can just make friends with people, and not have sex with them, I guess, or try to have sex with them. And then they have Bumble Bizz, which has been promoted as a LinkedIn competitor, although it hasn't gotten a lot of ... it hasn't gotten a lot of buzz, see what I did there. It was advertised. So very, very quickly and subtly, Bumble Bizz, a LinkedIn competitor, was advertised on the Super Bowl. Chad: Yeah. So, I mean, Bumble trying to push all these different, kind of like, systems of women's networking, and kind of controlling who they actually connect with, which I think is pretty cool. But yeah, we'll see what happens on the actual job side of the house. I'm not very bullish on that. Joel: Well, the problem with Bumble Bizz is, like, the number of married, or men in a relationship, who will join this site is, there's a ceiling. Because I'm not gonna get caught, with my wife, with Bumble on my phone, even if it is Bizz, I'm gonna be in deep trouble. And I'm sure I'm not alone on that. Chad: Yeah, no. I never even thought of that, because I never thought of even joining it. Joel: However, something I won't get in trouble being on is Sovren.com. Let's hear a quick word from them, and we'll talk about layoffs. Layoffs. Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market. Because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them, and offers tips to improve the results. Sovren: Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching, visit sovereign.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Chad: Although I think your wife, at this point, would probably be pretty suspicious, because you keep listening to this ... commercial over and over. Joel: Oh, Sovren? Yeah, yeah. The sexy voice at Sovren. We're gonna be in Austin soon, are we gonna try to meet the mysterious voice behind the Sovren ads? Chad: That's not, that's not the whole intent. I'd love to be able to get with, obviously, the entire, the Sovren crew- Joel: Oh, the whole team, for sure. Chad: And have some bourbon. God, you gotta get better at this. Joel: I am awesome at this. I'm really awesome at reporting layoffs in our industry, so yesterday word started to sprinkle in the morning that Monster was laying off some folks. We here in Indianapolis have a Monster office, so it hit ears pretty quickly and word spread from there. I reached out to the company, to our friend Kate Rambo, over at PR there. So she was really accommodating with information, basically on a global level, Monster is laying off approximately 5% of their workforce. It's pretty typical that, you know, new CEO, new executives come in, you know, they sort of get a lay of the land. And then they figure out who can we fire, who do we need to fire, you know, how do we cut some fat, how do we refocus. Joel: So I think on one end, you could say that's what Monster's doing, I mean, 5% isn't a draconian cut in the company. But some people are pointing to a lack of innovation, a lack of moving fast enough, or having maybe mismanaged expectations from the executive side, versus the employee side. In other words, the executives are talking about redefining resumes and videos, you know, Instagram for jobs. And the people in the trenches, it's like sell, sell, sell. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Sell the job postings, sell the products, and there's sort of a disconnect. So this may be more epidemic to a bigger problem, I guess we'll wait and see. Chad: Monster was acquired by Randstad in August of 2016, then executive heads rolled. They have new fresh faces in, including a new CEO, and you know, the cool thing for them is they have inherited a major recruitment industry brand, right? Joel: Yep. Chad: Not to mention there's a ton of technology that's in the closet from positions over the years, like Trovix, Jobr, Goziak, Talentbin, and there's even more. And that sounds like a perfect opportunity, on its face, right? But a good amount of that, I would assume, actually comes with a shit ton of technical debt. And actually trying to get products rolled out. And from my standpoint, you know, from the outside looking in, all we've seen is we've seen kind of like a refresh of the search, and a de-NASCARizing of the platform. Chad: That's one thing, right? Oh yeah, we kicked our ads out, which means revenue, number one, let's put that out there. That means revenue. But it's a better UI, better UX, but still they're kicking revenue out. Then, really the only big thing that we've heard is this, the video partnership with VideoMyJobs, which I think is cool, but this is an added value. So they are sinking time and money into something that's going to be an added value. Once again, that's revenue that they have to get back on retention, creating a stickier product, and hoping, I mean, this is ... what I see here is a gamble. Hoping that people use this, because adoption is a bitch. Joel: Yep. Chad: They're getting their jobs fed into the system via XML feed, in most cases. Now somebody's gonna have to go in, create a video, and plunk it into the job that's already into the system. Right? So there's an extra step that has to happen in a system outside of what they're already touching anyway. That's hard, man. So will video kill the job boards star? Joel: Boo. Chad: That's a good Buggles. Joel: I've thought for a long time that Monster has a knife in a gun fight. And that they're trying to, you know, leverage the brand that they still kind of enjoy, the traffic, and I'm sure the resumes and email blasts that they still send out on a regular basis. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But from an innovation standpoint, to compete against Google, LinkedIn, Indeed, et cetera, I just think it's a losing battle, and I think, you know, partnering with folks to provide technology is probably just, again it's just not enough. Too little, too late, if you will. You know, we talked to them at HR Tech, and they talked about having an app store similar to the iPhone, or the iTunes store, where people can make apps on top of Monster. And that's all very cool stuff, and I think that would be very good for their brand, and very good for their, you know, engagement and traffic, and all kinds of stuff. But we haven't seen it. Granted, HR Tech was in October. Chad: Yes. Joel: So less than six months ago, so you gotta give them some time. But yeah, I would certainly like to see more innovation rolled out more quickly. The studios product was beta since October, I guess- Chad: No, this week. This week. It just rolled out- Joel: But it started in beta, right? So it's been in beta for a while. Chad: No, it hasn't. It just launched, they made the announcement in October. It went beta this week with 120 companies. Joel: Because when we interviewed them, didn't they say they had 100 companies using it? Chad: It went beta this week with the [crosstalk 00:24:50]. The very first video going into a job, on the Monster platform, this week. And it was for a Monster compliance job. So, I mean, that's the thing, is that, you know, that's a pretty long window. Joel: Yep. Chad: And from an anticipation standpoint, a market anticipation standpoint, it's like, okay, great. What's it gonna cost, how can I buy it? And it's like, well it's free, it's gonna be added value. Okay, how do I use it? Well, guess what. It's months later. Chad: But back to layoffs piece, I mean, if you think of it, just from a timing standpoint, budgeting happens latter part of the year, everything's kind of shored up the first part of the year, and last year, I have to check my numbers, but I don't think Monster hit their 2018 numbers. I think this is, these hundred plus individuals are affording Monster a little more runway, but the problem is, the problem is for me, the only product that I see that they have out there is this new Monster studios product. And ... that's for 2019. What else are they gonna launch in 2019? Joel: Well, we'll have to see. Chad: Product wise? Dude, I don't think they have anything. Joel: I think your skepticism is certainly well warranted. If it took them that long to launch a video product that they've actually partnered with someone that's actually already done it- Chad: Yeah, they didn't even have to build it. Joel: It's more or less an integration play than an actual building play. You know, to roll out an app store seems really, really aggressive. Chad: You've got tech like Trovix that's matching, right? Either that is like old, semantic search that's shit, and they just scrapped it, or what have you, but they have all these different things, and if they can't use what's in the closet, they still have to partner to be able to innovate. Because it has to happen, and they don't have the cash that they used to. And Randstad, very focused on the ebida, right? Joel: Yeah, as you know. Chad: They're looking at frickin' margins, dude, so right now, here's my only thing. They've gotta generate revenue. The only way they can generate revenue is to be able to put products out there that will excite the market, right? And this added value, to a product that they already have, I don't know if that's it. But to be quite frank, I think that's the only horse they have in the race right now. Joel: Yeah, I mean, you know Randstad better than I do, because you work there, but I'm guessing that, you know, like big, bold acquisitions aren't ... aren't on the playbook at this time. Chad: Not for Monster. Joel: Yeah. So it's not like they can go innovate by buying innovation. Chad: Exactly. I mean, it would have to be a pretty big play. And a side note, I mean, Linda Galipeau, who's the CEO of Randstad North America, she is a power player. And she just left a few months ago. So, I mean, I don't know if that has anything to do with it, it's more coincidence, but it's really ... it's an interesting story that's starting to be pieced together from that side. Joel: And we'll be here to continue reporting on it. Chad: Amen, brother. Joel: Well, someone not hurting for money ... Chad: Craig. Joel: Yeah, Craig. So this story just ... it impresses me as much as it baffles me. So Craigslist, everyone knows, listening to this. Started in the mid-90s, I think they're 28 years old or some shit like that now. Started as an email list for Craig Newmark, a nerdy kind of dude from San Francisco, or in San Francisco, and it grew into this just crazy successful classified site. They charge between like $5 and $75 for job postings, and listing your rental, or asking for services at home. Anyway, [AIM Group 00:28:40], who has been reporting on Craigslist forever, talks about the revenue that they make, and AIM Group basically goes in and looks at how many listings, and they probably conservatively get to a number for annual revenue that Craigslist comes to, and- Chad: Right. Joel: This is the first year that Craigslist surpassed the one billion dollar mark in their history. So you know, that's a ton of money for a 50 person company. They're not a non-profit, even though they have a .org at the end of their name. They've taken no venture capital. I mean, like I don't know what they're doing with all this money, but it's a ton of money that they're just stashing away between Craig and their, I think Buckmaster is the COO. Basically Craig got sick of managing it, so he gave a big chunk of the company to this guy. Joel: So between those two, like you think of the money that they're making, it's just ridiculous. If they spend a hundred million dollars a year in servers and legal shit, employees, I mean, they're still banking 900 million dollars a year, it's crazy. Chad: I tell you what's crazy, go to Craigslist, it hasn't changed. Joel: Not much. Chad: It hasn't changed, dude. It is, it looks like a site, literally, from the late 90s. It hasn't changed. And it's just simple. Joel: Yeah. Chad: And just really easy to use, you put your stuff out there, people use it. I mean, it baffles me that Facebook hasn't engulfed all this revenue. Joel: Well they're going to try, and they will get a piece of it. You know, I talked to Peter Zollman over at AIM, and you know, the report that they did, it's really good. Really well done. But Craigslist traffic continues to go down. Like year over year, the traffic gets lower, but the revenues get higher, because they can charge for stuff that they didn't before. Or the traffic is more quality than it was before, the listings are more real because you're charging more money. Like people won't spam as much if it's paid, or if you pay to put listings on, so the traffic continues to go down, but the money continues to go up. So it's a very, it's just an interesting story, because it's literally just, it's like 50 people in a, you know, a low rent San Francisco place. Joel: I think Craig, what Peter told me is, he has a home in New York and a home in San Francisco. So it's not like he's living, you know, the thug life with yachts in Fiji or anything. So, man. Chad: I would attribute a lot of their traffic fall from them actually wiping out the personal ads on the site. Joel: That's very true. Chad: I mean, those are gone. Those are gone, right? Joel: In 2010, like every escort, prostitution, whatever ad was gone. And I think part of back to why weed is okay but prostitution isn't, is there was a law passed that you couldn't advertise online for services like escorts. Chad: It's not just that they're not allowed to advertise in the personals, the whole personals is gone. Joel: Yep. Chad: I mean they just wiped it out. They said, well fuck this, we're not messing with it. And some of it actually had to do with human trafficking and things that were happening on Craigslist, so. Joel: Yeah, and I'm sure that's a ton of traffic as well as money, but if you get rid of that, you know, that aspect of your site, people feel more comfortable going to it, they feel more comfortable spending money on it. Chad: Yep. Joel: So they're a huge winner. I mean, when we talk about Dice, and CareerBuilder, and Monster, and these guys, like Craigslist has just chugged along, grown organically, done it right. And by the way, the site being almost all text, aside from photos selling stuff, like it's super fast, search engines love it. Like going mobile was a big innovation at Craigslist. Chad: It's interesting because going from Craigslist to something entirely different, and ... we don't think is being incredibly innovative, but it seems to be because it's drawn a lot of users- Joel: Yeah. And money. Chad: Slack. And now they have, yeah, and money. And they have a new competitor, which is called Mattermost. Now you posted about this, tell us about, who is Mattermost? Joel: Yep. So you and I have always, I think, talked about how ridiculous Slack is, because it's messaging. I mean, it's fancy messaging, you have groups, and teams, and however they want to play it, but it's essentially just text going back and forth between people. I've been doing that on chats, and texting, and stuff for a long time, so I look at this industry a little bit like blogging 15, 20 years ago. So if you wanted to blog or publish stuff online back in the early 2000s, you had to use a service like Typepad, Blogger, et cetera, and you usually paid, you know, 10, 20 bucks a month to put your stuff out there and publish it. And then WordPress came along and said, we're open source, we're free, just download us and you're good to go. Joel: So then it was like, okay, so what is Typepad's real differentiator, there really wasn't one. So people migrated to WordPress because it was free. Chad: Yep. Joel: And you had, like, apps, and plugins, and people were developing stuff for it for free. So it was only a matter of time before Slack, we're gonna start seeing free options, Mattermost, who got 20 million dollars this month, it's a free open source messaging app. Just like Slack. And companies like Uber are using it, they mention a few other big names, but ultimately I think this is bad for Slack, because it becomes a commodity. And what really separates you from anything else, maybe they're banking on it being, you know, their app store and developing on Slack. Maybe they're gonna be more and more competitive with Microsoft, and have, you know, office products or maybe they'll have job postings, or a way to hire through Slack, or do HR benefits and stuff like that. Joel: But yeah, it's gonna be a tough market for Slack. They need to innovate, they're gonna go public, so they'll have money. But we're gonna see a lot more free options to plug in a messaging app for your workforce. Smaller companies will adopt this stuff. And it'll be interesting to see how it plays out for Slack, but I tend to think it won't be a good thing. Chad: Yeah. So Teams, obviously, is kicking ass and taking names, because it's a part of Microsoft Suite. Joel: And Facebook, too. Chad: Yeah. So it, just waiting for somebody to gobble these fuckers up. Joel: We've been waiting for two years, and it hasn't happened. Unless, unless- Chad: Nope. Joel: The eleventh hour somebody's gonna back up the Brinks truck, these guys are gonna go public, and we'll see how it shakes out. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: And speaking of messaging, let's hear a quick word from Canvas, and we'll talk about ... jeez, all kinds of good stuff about employee retention and recruiting. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent, text based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center, while Canvas Bot is at your side, adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Canvas: Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy, and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: Dude, you need to chill on the Bitmojis in business type emails. It's cute when you send it to me one to one, but man, when you ... have just a big list of professional people, and you throw off Bitmojis, it's really embarrassing. I ... it's hard for me to associate with someone like that. Chad: They love it. They love every, dude, our logo is like a couple of Charlie Brown figures, for God's sakes. Jesus. I mean, come on. Joel: Dude, you remember when Walmart was like the Death Star, destroying Middle America and destroying the mom and pop businesses? Thankfully Amazon came along to take that mantra from them, I guess, and Walmart is like ... saving Middle America. With our first story today, we talked about them recently with truckers and paying them more, and giving them all love. So now Walmart is loving on their current employees with paid time off, paid sick days. Walmart just may save Middle America. Chad: Yeah. So 48 hours of paid time. I mean, we're talking about, you know, obviously, a lot of part timers. 25% on quarterly bonuses for spotless attendance, I mean, so what they're saying is, hey look, if you don't have to take the time, then obviously that goes toward bonuses and those types of things. So they have incentives that are on there. But yeah, take a look at the job market. Yes, is Walmart doing this out of the goodness of their heart? Probably not, I mean, they're paying truckers more because they want to ... they want to suck all the oxygen out of the actual market. They want all the truckers, you know, fuck you Amazon. Get your drones ready, right? Joel: Yeah. That's exactly what it is. Chad: And what they're doing here is they know that they have to do more to be able to retain in a very, very, very tight labor market. So yes, is this smart for them? I agree 100%. I don't know if they're doing it out of the goodness of their heart. Joel: Well, goodness is good recruiting. 20 minutes from here is a town called Greenwood, Indiana. Greenwood, Indiana is a building a ... literally almost a Death Star looking warehouse for Amazon. Where do you think they're gonna try to get employees? Walmart, right. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Like Amazon is gonna hire a bunch of people and Walmart needs to fight that by keeping these folks at Walmart. Chad: Competition's good, man. There's no question. And I've said on several podcasts that we shop at Walmart for groceries, because they have that whole pickup thing. You do your shopping online, you roll up, they put the food in, and you don't have to actually go shopping. Right? I mean, and that's amazing. And that was, obviously, a direct response to Amazon, being able to deliver food to your front door. Chad: So yeah, no, I see that happening. The thing that gets me, though, is the whole economics of the wage thing. You know, it's almost like companies like Walmart are starting to understand to, just starting, that more money in the economy gives the US more spending power. Which means we can buy more shit. And in this case, if you buy more shit at Walmart, right? So I mean, it just, from my standpoint, I have never understood we don't need to raise wages, because those raising of the wages actually does great for the economy overall. It bolsters the economy. Joel: And this is, this is not government forced, right. This is a company saying we're gonna pay more to keep our best talent in the door- Chad: And we'll see how they act when the economy and the actual job market starts to loosen up. That is when you will see the real character of these organizations. Joel: You'll see the yellow smiley face turn [frowny 00:40:06] all of a sudden. With a shank in its hands. Well, speaking of bad PR, Facebook has had its bout with government and privacy, and all kinds of good stuff. So they're trying to, they're taking a little different tact with their employees, in that it was announced, or reported, this week that they're giving bonuses based on doing social good. Chad: There are employees who have left, and I'm sure right now actually contemplating leaving, because of the stupid shit that Facebook has done. They've covered up, they've deflected, and they don't want to be a part of a brand like that, right? We're talking about Microsoft earlier, we're talking about Google earlier, actually trying to get that brand moving forward. I think this is an attempt to be able to do that. Hey, go out, do your thing, you know, social good, we're all about it. You know? I think, again, this is just a PR play, but if it helps them, then good for them. Joel: Previous bonuses and whatnot were tied to, you know, performance. Like it usually is. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Such as user growth, right? Are we adding users, et cetera. I'm not sure how they're gonna measure how many Facebook employees and Facebook t-shirts were out building Habitat for Humanity houses. Hopefully for Facebook, this whole like do good and make commissions and bonuses will work out, but I don't know. It sounds kinda like black magic to me. Chad: We take a look at their actions moving forward, especially in things that matter. Some of these governmental processes and being able to kick quote unquote fake news, or disinformation campaigns to the curb ... that's one piece. Not to mention also kick out all these fake accounts, you know. If they were getting bonuses on all these fucking fake accounts that were being created, then that means no wonder they stopped that shit. Joel: Yeah, like make some new filters for fake news. Or make, like, yeah, do some good tech around that stuff, and we'd be a lot happier than social good. Whatever that means. Chad: That's a good point. Social good. Joel: Social good. So our third story of employee retention and recruitment goes to UNUM. Chad: UNUM. Joel: They're betting that their workforce will pass on time off, or vacation days, for payment towards student loans. Chad: They afford 28 days a year, which is ... is more- Joel: Very generous. Chad: Yeah, which is more than the usual, right? So it's up to five days that they'll allow cash in. And yeah, I mean, if, if you really don't need those days, and you're the type of person who has days left over, then yeah. And as a matter of fact, if you do, and you don't have college debt, or you don't have a kid who has college debt, then shit, they should allow you to actually push that to somebody else, you know? Joel: So apparently the average debt, student debt right now is around 32 thousand dollars. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The max that you can get from this UNUM benefit is 1200 dollars per year, so if my math is right, you just have to work at UNUM for about 33 years to pay off that student debt, so get tucked in, boys and girls, because you're gonna be in for the long haul. Chad: Yeah. I think companies ... the ones that are actually looking at paying off debt, or actually paying for school, to be able to help their employees really close that skills gap, that's going to be incredibly important. This is kinda like nickel and diming, but shit, I mean it's better than nothing. But, but corporate America, I mean, we really need to focus on these skills gaps issues that we've had for over a decade. Whether it's in the blue collar side, whether it's on the white collar development, or whatever it might be, we can't wait for government to actually come up with programs to do this shit. We, and not to mention, these employees are the ones that are making profit for you. So why the fuck is the government doing this in the first place, right? Chad: You should be focused on that. And that should be job one, because if you don't have the right talent, you're not gonna be able to get the product out the door, or the code launched, or what have you. That should be the focus. Joel: We agree. I will add that UNUM should increase the number, the longer time you're at the company. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I think that's all we got, man. We out. Chad: We out. Cole: I'm Cole Cheeseman, and rhymes with Joel, so my dad can easily remember who I am. Thank you for listening to my dad and his follically challenged friend Chad. Make sure you subscribe to this show on iTunes, Google, eight track cassette tapes, or wherever you enjoy podcasts. And be sure to support our sponsors, because if you don't, I'll get angry, and you don't like when I'm angry. Feffer: Such an asshole. #VideoMyJob #Monster #Microsoft #Google #GoogleforJobs #Veterans #Craigslist #Mattermost #Slack

It's THE recruiting and sourcing legend Jimmy Stroud. He's seen it and done it all people. On this UNCOMMON exclusive, the boys cover everything from automation, the future of sourcing and why he doesn't want Google to know what he's up to... Wait did someone say DuckDuckGo? And we tackle the question of "Recruiter Ethics" posed to us by our main man Roy Mauer over at SHRM. Grab a tinfoil hat and enjoy this most excellent episode. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Chad: I gonna be over at the top. Say hello to the easiest way to find interested and qualified candidates. Joel: Dude, you need to tone it down. I was just napping. You mean Uncommon's automated sourcing that turns passive candidates into interested and qualified applications? Chad: Yep. Uncommon automation helps recruiters cut their sourcing time by 75%. Joel: Wow, how much coffee did you have today? Chad: A lot. Joel: Anyway, dude, 75%. That sounds like black magic or something. Chad: Close, it's called automation. It's simple, actually. You just feed or post your jobs in Uncommon. The platform identifies your job requirements and in seconds, Uncommon uses those requirements to search over 150 million candidate profiles, and then it pulls back only the qualified candidates. Joel: Don't forget, you can connect your email and Uncommon will provide automated outreach with your customized messages to activate those passive candidates, those pesky, passive candidates. Chad: Even better. I'm gonna one up you. Uncommon shows exactly how the candidate meets all the job requirements with a side by side comparison view against the job requirements. Joel: Which means you won't be asking yourself, what in the hell is this candidate doing here? Chad: No, but you will be asking yourself, where has Uncommon been all my life? Joel: Seriously? Uncommon is the easiest way to find qualified candidates, active or passive. Chad: Visit uncommon.co, and use discount code CHADCHEESE for 20% off. Joel: Uncommon.co. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Chad: It's Jim Stroud. Jim: Hello. Joel: It's the tinfoil hat edition of The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Chad: Yeah. Joel: As we were talking before the show, our good buddy Jim Stroud. I don't even know what title you like now, Jim, but everyone probably knows you that's listening, or they should. Jim: You have a small audience. Joel: Give us just a quick intro of you and we'll get into the paranoia that we've talked about before the show. Jim: Yes, you can call me a consultant these days. I have been in sourcing and recruiting for two decades working for such companies as Google, Microsoft, Siemens, and a host of startup companies. Until quite recently, I was the head of sourcing and recruiting strategy for Randstad Sourceright, now consulting for my favorite clients. Joel: Your Twitter handle and your new podcast. Jim: Sure, my Twitter handle, I have two. One is @jimstroud. There I tweet about, excuse me, HR and job search issues. There is my other Twitter which is @jimstroudshow, where I talk about my podcast, which is The Jim Stroud Podcast, because I couldn't think of anything else to call it. There, I talk about future issues, like my latest show was on barcoding the homeless. Chad: What? Joel: What was that about? Was that like the microchipping of employees that we talk about? Jim: No, no, no. It's not as insidious. Okay, so there's this company in the UK. They're dealing with the homeless problem in a very unique way. They are giving QR codes to homeless people. They are wearables. They are not tattoos, which is coming out. Chad: Not yet, yes, yes. Jim: Not yet. Joel: Yeah. Jim: So they're getting these barcodes, and if someone says, "Hey, brother, can you spare a dime?" You can say, "Oh, dude, I don't have any money." They can say, "Well, you know what? Download this app and scan this QR code and you can send me a dollar or $5 or $10. Whatever you so desire, and when you look me up on this app, it will show you not only my face and name to verify if you're talking to the right person but also will give you a brief history of how I became homeless." Joel: See, I think this would be a great recruiting strategy for salespeople. So you can see ... You take the best homeless people that getting the most money, and you turn them into salespeople. Genius. Chad: Now, panhandling's not easy, that's for damn sure, right? Joel: Hell, yeah. You gotta sell your ass off if you're gonna make some money on the streets. Jim: It is true. It is true. When I was researching this, what was more interesting to me was not only the fact of what it was happening, but all the comments people were giving in response to it. I thought some of the comments were like, they went from, gosh. They went from rude to snarky to just mildly sympathetic. Some, and they reminded me so much of The Chad & Cheese Show. Chad: Mildly sympathetic. Joel: Mildly sympathetic. That's good. Jim: One person said, "It's a trap. If you try to scan it with your phone, then the homeless person will just snatch your phone and run." Chad: It's a trap. Jim: That's a Chad comment. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a trap. They're gonna take your shit. Joel: So then, can they use that QR code to go into Starbucks or wherever and get a muffin? Is that how that works? Jim: No, how it works is, okay. Once you're in the program, there are a few things you can do with the money, right? They have a good Samaritan or somebody on the backend who's actually monitoring how the money is used. So you can use it, and these are some of the uses that they cited. They don't cite all of them. They only cited a couple of them in articles I read. One was for a passport, because if you're homeless, you need a passport. Chad: What the fuck. Jim: Obviously. Joel: What? Get out of our country, homeless person. Chad: On the Euro side, right? Jim: Yeah, and then the other example they gave was to collect money for a deposit on a rental space. So if you collect enough money through panhandling, you can have enough money to rent your own apartment, which gives the question of how you pay for it the rest of the year once you have your first and second month down. Joel: Those sound like serious milestones. Jim: Yeah. Joel: Can I just get a cup of coffee? Like damn. Jim: It was kind of weird. Kind of weird. Joel: I gotta save up for an apartment? Jim: So I gave, out of my pocket, I said, you know what? It did not address a problem to me. Kind of like, okay, so you're enabling someone to give money to stay on the street another day, since you're not really helping them. So I cited this site called Kiva. Chad: Nope. Jim: Have you heard of it? K-I-V-A? All right, it's, yeah, K-I-V-A.org. What it does is it allows you to do microlending. So let's say you have a lemonade stand and you want some money to buy some lemons. Well, someone can loan you as low as $25, and then once you make your lemonade money, you give back, I think $25.75 or something like that. You get a little kickback. Jim: So I said, why don't you have the app do something like that where you help somebody to start a business. Even something small, like shining shoes in the subway station. You buy them shoe polish, or maybe you donate business advice or you donate clothes or if they're trustworthy enough, maybe give them temporary office space somewhere. So you can help them get on their feet, start a business to get them off the street, and then eventually hire other people. So that was my input into that whole thing on my podcast. Joel: Well, these are all problems way too big for us to handle, I think, on this show. So why don't we rotate to recruiting. Chad: I sent over a little piece that we talked about last week revolving around. It was Entelo's recruiting automation trends reports focusing on recruiters, what they're doing, what they're not doing, and then also, you can talk about the paranoia that's baked in, too. Maybe why they're not doing some of this shit. Jim: I did not read, let me see. I know I seen that, because I saw it. I added it to my Twitter queue. I didn't read that specifically. Give me a couple of examples from that. Joel: Well, the thing that struck me was phone, or email, sorry, is still the number one way that recruiters contact people. Phone and text were number two. Now, they didn't separate phone or text. I tend to think phone is probably lower than we think or at least trending lower. Then you get into InMail, which is like 13%, which is pretty low. So I guess, what are your thoughts on best ways for a recruiter to contact a person? What are your most successful ways? What do you think of the findings? Jim: I think email is probably the most successful way. When I speak with sources, recruiters, that seems to work for them. Also look at it from a consumer side. People who always, when they're surveyed about what platform they want to be contacted by when speaking to companies, email is always at the top. I'm noticing though, from our previous conversation, you asked me about robocalls. Maybe that is factored in the Entelo report. I don't know. I haven't read it just yet, but I know that some companies will use robocalls to reach out to talk to people. I haven't experienced a recruitment robocall yet that I know of, which is really, really good. Basically when I get robocalls, it's some kind of political speech or something like that. Joel: Let me give you some numbers about robocalls that came out recently from MarketWatch. Okay, so "US phones are inundated," this is from the story, "with 26.3 billion robocalls last year, which was a 46% increase over the 18 billion spam calls placed in 2017. The tech to make such calls has become easy and cheap to access, so more robocallers are jumping into the fray. The junk calls are driving people to avoid the phone altogether. With 52% of cell phone calls going unanswered. Mobile carriers AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile and Sprint have pledged to implement a security protocol within the next year to help weed out some of this spam." But it definitely is a problem and I gotta think it's affecting recruiters' abilities to call people. Jim: I'd imagine so, and I also imagine it would damage a company's brand. If someone's calling me all the time that's a robocall, I'm gonna start thinking negative about that company. Chad: Well, many times, they don't say what the company- Joel: They don't reveal who they are. Chad: Yeah, they don't reveal who they are. They're just calling in saying, "Hey, we have this great offer." Joel: "Manage your student loan." Chad: "Great offer," or whatever it is, and so from my standpoint as Joel was talking about earlier, I'll notice that calls are coming in from a local area code and they're just- Joel: Spoofing. Chad: Yeah, spoofing the area code, so I mean, I don't answer any call anymore unless it's already in my phone and it can pop up a name. Jim: You know what I see on my phone? Maybe it's just part of that, because I don't answer the phone, but if I get a spam call, presumably a spam call on my phone, I see scam likely. So it lets me think that Apple is monitoring or someone is monitoring all of the scam or spam calls and put them into a system so that even when someone calls my phone, it says scam likely, or sorry. Do you guys see that on your phones? Joel: No. Chad: Nuh uh. No, I don't. Joel: Are you an Android- Jim: No, I have an iPhone. Joel: Yeah, I have an iPhone too. My wife has an app that will basically filter robocalls so she doesn't get them, and the service answers the calls and tries to keep them on the line as long as possible and annoys them. So there are incredible business opportunities with this problem, but it definitely is a problem. She was getting robocalled a lot. Chad: Now, is she paying for the service? Joel: Yep. Yep. It's like 3.99 a month and it's well worth it. Chad: Dude, that's like, yeah, no shit. That's almost like McAfee, right? You have to get McAfee or Norton, obviously, and it had always been said that they were the ones creating a lot of these viruses to ensure that you had to have some type of protection. So it's almost like- Jim: Protection racket. Chad: Exactly, it's a protection racket, man. You fell for the protection racket. Jim: Wow. You know what a cheaper way to get around that might've been to go to the site, this other site's lacking. But one is called whocalledme.com. If you do a search on DuckDuckGo which is my preferred search engine. Joel: I wonder why. Privacy. Jim: Privacy, man. So you put in who called me on DuckDuckGo, and you'll see a bunch of these kind of sites where you can do reverse lookups on these robocallers- Joel: Does it work with spoof numbers? Jim: I don't know. I don't know. I just know that when people get a number, they won't be able to use the same number on you twice. They're using these IP things, I forget what they're called, but at least if they used the same number in the past, you'll be able to see who they are and leave a comment saying, "This guy's a spammer" or whatever. Joel: Mark my words, SMS is next. Chad: Yeah, no shit. Well that being said, 39% of recruiters rank emails as their preferred outreach method, and knowing that text and maybe in some cases, you have their email address, but you don't have their phone number. But text works so much better. Why aren't we kind of starting to gravitate toward text in this case? Jim: I think, isn't that when someone sends you a text, there's a charge on your phone depending on what kind of service plan you're on? Joel: I mean, that's pretty rare these days. Jim: Is it? Joel: Yeah. Jim: I always thought that in the beginning when texts first started catching on, I always thought that was the reason why recruiters hadn't done texting en masse like they do email. When you send an email, it doesn't cost anything to the end user. But if you send a text to someone and it affects their bill, they're really not gonna like you. So I thought that was the reason why recruiters sort of stay away from it in the beginning, but they're doing it more so now because you're not charged so much now. Joel: Do you use text in your recruiting? Jim: Yes, but people have opted in to receive those. So different systems that they use, when you gather their information, they join a talent community and you have a little box there say, hey, would you like to be contacted by text for opportunities? And they hit a little checkbox, then you're gold. But if you don't have that and you see their phone number and you decide to try a text anyway, then no. Jim: Then I think for some recruiters, it may backfire on them, because they don't have a system that allows people to opt in to receive texts, and you decide that they come from your phone, that can backfire you back and they could tell all their friends, "Hey, everybody, this person's spamming me. Why don't we all get together and spam him as one." Chad: Well that's, I think that's why it's incredibly important why you use a canvas platform or text recruit or something like that where it is happening through a formalized platform where you can gather all of the information, number one, and you can have kind of like those opt ins in place automatically. Again, it'd be much easier to do a blast, let's say, for individuals with Java background as opposed to just everybody on your list, and then throwing a bunch of irrelevant bullshit at them. Joel: Chad and Cheese sponsor Nexxt, with two Xs was really smart back in the day to ask resumes being posted if they wanted to receive texts or were they open to that, so they have like 10 years head start on most people with getting permission to send texts to candidates. Chad: I have 8 million or something like that. Joel: It's a lot, yeah. Chad: Yeah. I have a shit ton. Jim: I saw in real life, spotted in the wild, I saw this process that I thought made a lot of sense. Hardee's, there's a Hardee's down the street from my house, and they have on their sign, text 1123 to Hardee's if you want to work here. Chad: Yeah, shortcut- Jim: I'm paraphrasing their sign, but that's what it was. So when you text that number, it'll send you back a message saying, hey, would you like to receive notifications of new jobs here at Hardee's? Yes or no? So I'm giving them permission, and then they are texting, presumably, people within a certain geographic area. So a new job comes up, there's an opening, it's gonna text all those people in that area. They respond. It's a wonderful thing. So I see that being awesome for people who work in retail, who work in fast food restaurants, and they want people who are close because based on past experience, if someone works near the mall or near these fast food places, then they stay longer, because it's convenient for them to work. Joel: Where are you with chatbots right now, Jim? Jim: Oh, I like chatbots. I do. I do. Chad: I like me a chatbot. Jim: Chatbots are wonderful. Joel: I like chatbots. Jim: I want to be a chatbot when I grow up. I like it because if nothing else, it gives job seekers a feeling of connection or a feeling of closure depending on how the chatbot comes into play. A lot of times, job seekers, they snip their resume into a black hole, never to be heard of again, but at least with a chatbot, you have the illusion that you are getting somewhere in the process. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Because to me, the Hardee's example is great, but I think where it would be better as opposed to just saying, hey, I'm opting in for sort of messages about openings that texting in actually started a conversation. Like what's your name? Do you have a driver's license? Are you over 18? You can start screening people and having a conversation through chatbots, or in this case, sort of an SMS chat. Then you really get engaged candidate as well as you're building a solid brand, because people are like, holy crap. They really care. They're really asking me questions. Joel: Then you could potentially even take that to, if they pass the prescreening, that you could actually set up interviews and get those people in front of a human being. Chad: They have platforms that are doing that now on the high volume side of the house, right? Joel: Yep. Yeah. Chad: So Jobalign, Talentify, I mean, there are platforms that are doing that now, so I agree. Take it past just the collection of the information and start the engagement right there. Jim: And take it even a step further. If I am talking to a chatbot right now about an opportunity, and I'm going through the screening questions and I'm hitting every button for them, then why not just send a message to a recruiter in real time, saying, "Hey, I got a live one right now who's doing all the screening questions, and would you like to talk to them because I'm talking to them right now," the robot says. "They're hitting all of your requirements." Then the chatbot, then I tell the chatbot yeah, then the chatbot tells the job seeker, "Hey, you want to talk to a recruiter? Here's the link. Schedule something." Chad: So how do we get recruiters to engage and embrace these new types of technologies? I mean to be able to really be confident, because again, the survey actually said 75% of recruiters lack confidence in their ability to leverage these new recruiting tools? Jim: Adapt or die. Chad: Adapt. Jim: That's all I can say on that, because that is the future. It's not even the future. It's more like 15 minutes into the future. More like five minutes into the future. It is quickly becoming the standard. You will have to become Tony Stark. I don't think it's a situation where the robots are gonna take over and kick you out because there's some things that humans will always do, but you're gonna have to be Tony Stark to know how to talk to your Jarvis to do things, because all your competitors will be doing the same thing. If you can't- War Games: Shall we play a game? Jim: If you can't keep up, you gonna fall behind. Chad: That's right. Joel: Jim, you have a, I think one of our first interviews with you, you talked about the two kinds of recruiters, sort of the farmers and the hunters. Jim: Yeah. Joel: I think it was the phone answerers. Whatever it was, and you have an interesting perspective on that. Talk about that again and how having a chatbot that prescreens people is going to expedite the people who have manually picked up a phone and said, are you over 18? Do you have a driver's license? They become pretty obsolete in that new world. Jim: To an extent, yes. Just basic questions. I can see chatbots doing that for sure. I don't see them replacing recruiters though, because recruiters can hear the different nuances in somebody's voice. They can ask more probing questions. They can say, why do you say that? Or their spidey sense could kick in. They can ask additional questions or probe deeper, and you can't get that with a chatbot. You can get those basic prescreening questions though that'll make the recruiter's life easier. So I do like that. Jim: I think a lot of these tools will make recruiters, for better or worse, better on the phone, because if you have these chatbots who can say, prescreen people and you're talking to your desired audience, then all I really need to do is just focus on building relationships with the candidate and then further on with the hiring manager. It gives me more time to talk to the hiring manager and get that warm and fuzzy with them. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So what kind of recruiters are in most jeopardy? Jim: The ones that are not really strong with maybe emotional intelligence. I think sometimes people prefer email, not just because it's more efficient, but because they don't want to talk with people if they don't have to. If you do a search on DuckDuckGo for ... for millennials losing interpersonal skills, you'll see a lot of research and articles about how the machines have taken over and how they prefer spending time with machines and games rather than engaging people, losing the art of looking somebody in the face and talking to them straight in their eye, or building up a conversation. So I think that that's one reason that email is so preferred by a lot of recruiters, not just for the efficiency], but also because they don't want to actually pick up the phone and talk to someone. Jim: So someone who can be empathetic, someone who has all of the emotional intelligence soft skills, someone who can problem solve. That kind of thing. Those people will be in high demand. Chad: So here's the thing, especially the people being in high demand because there's already a lot of pressure in recruiting as it is. Roy Maurer actually reached out from SHRM, the famed journalist over at SHRM, and he wanted us to actually talk about do recruiters need a code of ethics? We're talking about right now, right, as pressure starts to mount. So Steve Bates wrote this article, and he started off with "Low level recruiting jobs can be among the toughest in HR. Practitioners are under extreme pressure to fill client positions. That pressure can tempt recruiters to make some less than ethical choices." As we start to see the market squeeze even more, do we see that we need a code of ethics even more now, or maybe in the next five minutes as you were saying than we did in the past? Feffer: Asshole. Jim: You know what? Okay, this is a little bit of a rant for me, because I wrote this article, no I reposted it in 2014. I think I originally wrote it in 2012. Joel: We love rants. Rant away. Jim: The first article I wrote was called Resumes Are People Too, where I talk about ethics from a job seeker perspective. Then I wrote one called, A Great Idea That Never Happened, which was licensed recruiters, how it would be great if recruiters had licenses, but it won't happen. Chad: Oh, SHRM would love that, man. They could certify recruiters and make a shit ton of cash. Joel: Money, money, money. Jim: Some people who see this issue and have actually taken actual steps in trying to make it happen, like ATAP, the Association of- Chad: Talent Acquisition Professionals. Joel: Talent Acquisition Professionals, yeah. Jim: Yeah, okay. So they have a professional code of recruiting integrity, which is really cool. I think there area a couple of other people out there who was doing it. Even if SHRM decided to do it, there'll be something, but the problem with it I think is that you can't really penalize someone if they don't subscribe to the code of ethics, right? Chad: Yep. Jim: So if you have a Better Business Bureau thing on your business, then you can get some kind of penalty for not abiding by that seal of approval. You can't have the seal of approval on your business so people don't think you are as legit as somebody who does have it, right? If you are licensed by ATAP, for example, or maybe even SHRM and you decide not to abide by those ethics, then what's gonna happen? Joel: Slap on the wrist. Jim: You get a slap on the wrist. You might get a ding on your employment brand, but you're not gonna have any fines, and if you hit somebody in the pocketbook or the wallet, that's when change will happen. So I'll go, I don't want government taking over everything. If there was a government agency that watched over licenses for recruiting the same way it does for hairstylists or the same way it does with pharmacists, whatever like that, right? You get reported and investigated and it shows that you're not following those processes, then the government entity can say, you know what? We're gonna hit you with $1,000 fine for every time this happens, or a $10,000 fine. Once it gets out that you can get actual financial repercussions for not abiding by the rules, then the change will happen. Until then, it's just talk. Joel: Do you have any horror stories in your pocket, Jim? Jim: Yeah. Well, one of the horror stories that I could go to was what these military recruiters would do. So I read an article once about how military recruiters who were desperate to get their numbers up, how they would tell people how to get around drug testing so that ... Joel: That's how Chad got in. Jim: You know, I didn't want to say that. Chad: Hey, just because you have a ton of testosterone in your body does not mean you're taking drugs, okay? Feffer: Asshole. Jim: So also they were giving out information about how to get fake diplomas, which is a booming market, by the way, on the dark web. Chad: Wow. Joel: Wow. Jim: Yeah, I did a show on that too, fake diplomas. Make a lot of money that way. So those are a couple instances in that regard too. So when those recruiters were found out, they got some mandatory retraining. They got a little slap on the wrist and got in trouble for that, but there was no penalties, no financial penalties for doing that kind of thing, so that kind of thing still happens, not just with recruiters. You see it in corporate too. There's some companies that may post jobs that don't exist. It's just so that they can get an influx of candidates, and they may say, "Oh, you know what? We're gonna have a job like this again eventually." Chad: It's evergreen. It's evergreen. Jim: it's evergreen. Yeah. So they'll still post the jobs and get candidates, but you're basically wasting the candidates' time. It would've been better to have a talent community and say hey, we had a talent community, and sometimes we have jobs like this. Why don't you join our community and stay in touch with us? That would be so much better and ethical than just saying, hey, here's a job. Apply for this job. It doesn't exist. But again, there's no financial repercussions, so it's not gonna stop. Chad: So what about Glassdoor? I mean, knowing that there's no financial repercussions now, but what about candidates going to Glassdoor or companies working with prospectively these different staffing groups going to Glassdoor, getting their anonymous bitch on? Jim: Sure, I think it'll slow it down if it is done en masse. Usually when I look through Glassdoor, I see people complaining about a particular company, about the working conditions or the work life balance, stuff like that. I don't see, maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see as many people complaining about specific recruiters on Glassdoor, per se. I always see them complaining about the company. Am I missing it? Are you guys seeing that more? Joel: There are some new site, they don't come to mind immediately, but there's at least one or two sites that are just recruiters, and we've talked about on the show. We don't think there's much of a market in there for people to go bitch about the recruiter that they had, so I don't think there's much future in there, but yeah, some sort of a review system would be nice. I like your licensing idea, because you're more employable if you have a license or maybe if you have an ethical background and have a secured license, you're more marketable, more employable. So I like that idea on its face. Chad: What about these staffing companies, though? What about these staffing companies actually coming up with their own code of ethics and holding recruiters to those code of ethics, and if they step outside of those lines, it's not a slap on the wrist. It is you're out the door. Joel: You're fired. Jim: You're fired, yeah. I like that as well, but I don't know how many enforce it and I also don't know how many people are thinking, well, if we're on the straight and narrow and our competitors are not, then we're missing out. Chad: Could be a competitive advantage to be able to go on and say, "Hey. We're straight. We're transparent. We've got a code of ethics, and here are the shitbags that we've kicked out to the curb." Jim: That would be a ballsy move. That would be pretty good. I would actually applaud that. Joel: My post-Super Bowl hangover made that really hard to listen to. Chad: Especially after a shitty Super Bowl like that. Joel: Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna pivot to something Jim, and you mentioned DuckDuckGo two or three times in this podcast. We're not sponsored by DuckDuckGo, but- Chad: We should be. Joel: Yeah, we should be, which is for privacy reasons. They don't track you, et cetera. You mentioned before the show that if you use Google, you're in a different browser, secret browser that isn't Chrome or Safari or whatever. I'm curious about you because you've been a sourcer recruiter for so long, and we talk about the show about the death of sourcing. We've had many guests come on and say, automation is going to make sourcing irrelevant. What are your thoughts on the current state of sourcing and where it will be in, let's say, five years from now. Jim: I don't think sourcing will ever go away because there will always be new tools, new sites, new tech advances, new ways to hack, so there always will be a need for sourcers in that perspective. It's almost like saying, will we ever need to stop cybersecurity because once we've fixed all the cybersecurity of the day, it means no more new stuff will come out which isn't true, of course. Joel: Well, you always need cobblers, right? Jim: Yeah. Joel: But how many are there these days? Jim: Yeah, you always need some new stuff. So I don't see sourcing going away. I do see some of it being, a lot of it being automated. I see a lot of new tools coming out, as always. I see that there always will be those purple squirrels. I see that the sourcer will be need more so for those purple squirrel kind of things and less so for, I don't know, retail worker or fast food or things like that. Joel: Will there be fewer or more sourcers in five years? Jim: I think there will be fewer, but I think they will be better, and I say fewer because there will be some who will not evolve. Chad: It's the thinning of the herd. Jim: Yes. Chad: Yeah. Jim: But back in my day, a lot of sourcers, they went to Monster and CareerBuilder and that was quote unquote, "sourcing." That is not sourcing, young lady, young man, and as new things come about, there will be more stuff unearthed, so it won't go away. You'll just be finding people that are harder and harder to find. Chad: So cream of the crop, the people who are just rounded out in skills, that's what we're looking for. Joel: Basically finding Jim is gonna be really hard because he's not gonna be on any browser that isn't secure. He's not gonna be searching on anything. He's not gonna have a barcode or a microchip in him, and he's always gonna have his tinfoil hat on. Jim: But the way they still give me after all of that will probably be some kind of programmatic recruiting, getting you with that advertising- Joel: Automation. Jim: The advertising that I can't resist. That's gonna be the way to get me. Joel: And on that note. Chad: Thank you, Jim. Joel: Jim, we love you. It's always good to have you on this show, man. We appreciate you. Any last words, people where they should go, what they should read, what they should not do, maybe? Jim: Sure. Go to jimstroud.com, J-I-M S-T-R-O-U-D.com and subscribe to my blog, listen to my podcast. Chad: Oh yeah. Jim: I give away a lot of free stuff on my podcast. Please download it because I get a kickback, just to be honest. Chad: Love it. Excellent Jim. We out. Joel: We out. Tristen: Hi. I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. The most important part is to check out our sponsors, because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive, shiny, gold pair that are extra because ... well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. Links cited: A Great Idea That Will Never Happen: Licensed Recruiters | LinkedIn Resumes are people too – Jim Stroud This is why you hate recruiters! Institute of Recruitment Professionals ATAP Ethics Recruiter License Example Do Recruiters Need a Code of Ethics? #Automation #Sourcing #recruiting #JimStroud #SHRM #Ethics #Uncommon #Privacy #DuckDuckGo #ATAP #chatbots

The end of January is supposed to be boring. Nay, say Chad & Cheese. The boys dig into: - Listeners are lining up to punch Joel in the throat - We don't need no stinkin' surveys - only the data ma'am - Chad finally sees Indeed's assault on staffing agencies - Amazon employs robots in their war on Walmart - Vangst receives $10m further embraces weed's legality - Ghost proof interviews with Canvas, Mya and messaging Just throat punch Joel on your way to spending bucket loads of money with Chad & Cheese our sponsors Sovren, JobAdX and Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: I got your polar vortex right here, mother nature. Welcome to The Chad & Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, we pull some anti-ghosting magic out of our hat, we learn why Indeed gave the AA staffing industry a big FU, and we get a little contact high from the growing pot jobs industry. Smoke up Johnny. We'll be right back after a word from Sovern. Sovren: Sovren AI Matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each, individual transaction. They will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI Matching, visit sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Chad: Hopefully be seeing those guys sometime soon, right? Joel: Yeah, we're headed to Austin. We'll see if they got any more vodka or bourbon from HR Tech still around. Chad: Bourbon. Joel: We were taking some of that. Yeah, I think it was bourbon. It was bourbon. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Well, dude, happy Super Bowl weekend. Chad: No shit, right? It's here. Joel: Yeah, I tried to do a little, a New York accent at the beginning, but it sounded a little bit more New England maybe because there's been so many Bostonians on TV lately. Chad: Bastards. Joel: They're gonna win, though. Chad: I don't know that, yeah. Joel: Quick prediction? I'm gonna go New England 35, LA 31. Chad: I'm gonna go LA 28, New England 14. Joel: Okay. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Only 14 points. Chad: Yeah, LA had one hell of a defense this year, and I think they're gonna lock it down, and they can. If they can lock down those receivers, not to mention they have a hell of a pass rush. Joel: Well, for the sake of the viewing audience, I hope it's not just 28-14. I hope it's a little more high scoring than that. Chad: It can still be a good game. Joel: Oh, sure. But these aren't massive defenses. If New England's not scoring much, it's because they're sucking. It's not because they're playing the 2000 Ravens or the 75 Steelers. Chad: The Rams had a good defense this year. They had a very good defense this year. Take a look at their line, what is it, Donaldson? Take a look at their backs, man. Joel: And Suh. A boy called Suh. Chad: Those guys, they're legit. I'm waiting for the AFC to finally fucking put together some teams in the late season who don't just fucking fold like cheap card tables. Joel: Well, thank god we have the Browns then, who are destined for Super Bowl greatness. Chad: Once again. Joel: Interestingly, I haven't heard a lot about the commercials this year. Chad: I know it's gonna be incredibly expensive to get a fucking, it always is, but it goes up every year. So we'll see. We'll see who actually has the cash to play in this game. Joel: We'll see, and we'll probably discuss it on next week's show. Chad: More than likely. Joel: Now, for the non-sports fans, they'll be happy to know that we're gonna tighten up our shout outs a little bit, so we're limiting it to people, exceptional people, not just anyone, events, and maybe like really special items for the show. Okay, so we're tightening up. I'm gonna start with Adam Gordon, candidateid.com or candidate.id, whichever one. Go check him out. The crazy Scotchman, Scotsman, that we love so much did a Braveheart inspired death match video taunting us. I shoot fire out of my ass or lightening out of my ass, and you shoot fire out of your eyes or something. Chad: Yes. Joel: But it was very well done. Love Adam, can't wait to see him in Lisbon on the death match stage. Chad: Yes, and I have to say that TNG and the 10 guy creepy ass robot is the one who actually started this, so their video acceptance pushed Adam. But yeah, you can check it out. You can go to chadcheese.com, click on podcasts and video or death match, whatever, and they're gonna be right there. Check them out. They're funny as hell. Joel: They must not have as much of a litigious society there in Scotland, because I would be scared to death to do a parody of Braveheart by risk of getting sued by everyone in Hollywood. But hey Adam, good for you man. Stick it to the movie studios. Chad: I would've thought you would've started out with the Joel throat punch. Joel: I don't know, to me that feels like the fourth hitter. That seems like the clean up to me, but yeah, if you want to bring that up, go ahead. Chad: Yeah, so you had a post on LinkedIn that kind of, I would say, exploded to an effect. You posted, "If you ever hear me say," and I quote, "I need to story this," end quote, "Permission to punch me in the throat." So apparently, people don't have a problem, and as a matter of fact, they're kind of overjoyed at the thought of punching you in the throat. Joel: Yeah, there's a number machine in the corner of my office here, if you want to take a number. Apparently, there's a lot of energy around punching me in the throat. Now, I will say that the odds of me saying, in public, "I need to story this," or "I want to story this," is pretty low, and it was driven by either millennial or a Gen Z are saying it. Similar to like, "I need to tweet this," or "I'm gonna Facebook this." So this is the whole story phenomenon of stories on Snapchat and Instagram. "I need to story this." So I hope to god I never say it. If I do, carte blanche to punch me in the throat. Chad: Just so that you know, we do have this already set up as an event. It's gonna be a sponsored event by JobAdX. We already have t-shirts being designed, throat punch Joel t-shirts, those types of things. So when it does happen because it'll happen, we will have an event pulled together to make sure that everybody can enjoy the Joel throat punching. Joel: Multiple video sponsors have lined up to video record this and push it out there. Now, to underscore the idiocy of mankind, my throat punch post has received almost 15,000 views from the comments, and people talk a lot about, why don't you write or talk about more thoughtful, intellectual pieces? The point is, we give the people what they want, and apparently, they want throat punches and Braveheart videos and everything else. So if you don't like our content, blame it on humanity, because we're just giving the people what they want. Chad: That's right. Ed from Philly, he loves what we're saying, because he really liked the Weekend at Bernie's comment about Wilbur Ross]. Joel: That was pretty good. Chad: Ang over at JobElephant's officially sent us a strongly worded letter and took exception to your job site farming comment, because JobElephant's obviously is their product. He took exception to that. Joel: Yeah, so those that didn't listen, Textkernel being acquired by CareerBuilder, I think Textkernel's an awful name. Chad: Yes. Joel: It reminds me of farming and corn kernels, and the whole animal thing is played. So JobElephant, what I got for you is ... a big elephant gun. Chad: Oh, god. Killing it. Okay, so Toby Culshaw- Joel: Loves us. Chad: Well, and he's created a TA podcast list for TA professionals, so if you're out there, you're a TA professional, maybe you're a vendor in this space and you want to listen to a top notch podcast, obviously you're already listening to one. He's actually created a list for this, so check it out. It's on LinkedIn, Toby Culshaw, C-U-L shaw, and there you go. Joel: I don't think they were numbered, but we're clearly number one if he had numbered that list, I think. Canada, here we come, eh? Chad: Yeah. Joel: The event's February 19 through the 22-ish. Chad: It's gonna be awesome. Joel: We're gonna be in Banff near Calgary, Canada. More CEOs than we can shake a stick at, more thought leaders. I'm not sure how they let us into the event, but sure enough, we're gonna be there and aspire to interview a lot of people and get a lot of content for everybody. Chad: So this is a cult branding event, names like Yeti, LA Lakers, Marvel Comics, Cheetos- Joel: Cinnabon. Chad: Yeah, Cinnabon. Joel: Cinnabon, Cheetos, yeah. Chad: Converse, M&Ms, Porsche- Joel: Miller. Chad: I mean, dude. Joel: Budweiser. Chad: This is like the brand event of the year, so we're pretty fucking stoked, not to mention after that, there is a concert event, which I'm going to go to as well. So it should be fun. Joel: It feels like Davos meets South By Southwest for Canada, is basically what we're going to. Chad: They let us meatheads in. Joel: Yep. Chad: Soon, you will be able to check out the new Chad Cheese first limited edition Chad Cheese t-shirt- Joel: Original. Chad: Original design. Joel: Exclusive. Chad: Exclusive, what else do we want to put on it? Joel: Earth shattering, orgasmic- Chad: We're gonna have three or four different designs you can vote on. This is all sponsored by our friends at Emissary.ai. They are going to be promoting, they're the sponsor of this first, limited edition Chad and Cheese shirt, which we're going to be giving away at events this year. Joel: We're excited. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You're excited. This is your baby, man. You've been talking about a t-shirt sponsorship for a long time, and I have poo pooed it since you started, so I'm giving you full credit. If this thing takes off, Chad is the guy behind it. Chad: First and foremost, you get throat punched for saying "poo pooed", and second, it's gonna take off. People love fucking t-shirts and Chad and Cheese t-shirt. Give me a break. Come on. Joel: Especially when they're limited and orgasmic. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: People love those kinds of t-shirts. Chad: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Joel: Holy shit. Are we done with shout outs? Chad: One more, Mark Feffer is providing us with sound effects. I'm working with Mark on another project. I thought, fuck it. I'm gonna pull in some of these sound effects for Chad & Cheese too. He'll love it, so go ahead and play one. Feffer: Asshole. Joel: Did we get a signature to do this? Are we gonna have to pay him every time we use "asshole" on the show? Chad: No, don't even put that out there in the universe for god's sakes. Now we're gonna have to think about it. I'm working with him. He writes all the content for HCMtechreport.com, and we're doing some podcasting roundups and whatnot. We're trying to liven some of the stuff up, so I thought you'd just kinda cross-pollinate some of the stuff that we're using over there and it'd be fun. Feffer: Asshole. Asshole. Asshole. Joel: Now everybody's gonna want sound bites on the show, nice. Chad: Yeah, well, and that is awesome. We should do that. Where's my Ed from Philly fucking sound bite? Joel: Yeah, you gotta have some Philly. What would Ed say? Chad: I don't know. We need a sound bite. Joel: All right. All right, Ed. Through the guns. All right, George Larocque is starting off the show. Dude did a poll. He has larocqueinc.com is his blog. Larocque, L-A-R-O-C-Q-U-E inc.com. Chad: Larocque, yeah. Joel: I'm guessing that's French. Larocque. Chad: Le ROCK. Joel: Something. So the title is Everything on the Internet Starts with Google. Sure, but what about online job search? They say no. You have a few comments about the results. I have a little bit of a commentary about the sample size, but essentially, it's a big hand stroke to Indeed, which lands number one. Although I'm a little, I'm confused, because the headline is basically like, Google sucks, but Google is number two in terms of search site used. Where does this job search start? Google's number two, and they're like five or six points behind Indeed, and then you go down to LinkedIn, Monster, ZipRecruiter, Glassdoor, et cetera. Joel: So what are your thoughts about the results? I don't think this is a huge blow to Google, but the headline would say otherwise. Chad: Yeah, I take issue mainly in the methodology. So it was a survey. I think it's cute when you're asking dumb humans where they start anything, because they can't fucking remember. Seriously. It doesn't look like the survey is any better, has any better information than the ATS drop down question. Where did you find this job, right? Joel: Yeah, and there are a certain number of people, and let's agree that Indeed still has some nice search rankings on a lot of things. People are still going to Google and then going to Indeed and then finding the job from there or applying through that. So you really get into some confusing issues of, do they really remember, or what exactly is the process by which they're telling you what they're going for? Joel: This is why analytics exist, right? So you put a piece of code on websites, and you don't leave it up to human beings. You leave it up to what actually happens, which obviously wasn't what this survey gauged as far as I know. In fact, my big problem with it is that they surveyed a whopping, in the job search area, 540 individuals. If this was 540 employers, I'd say, home run. That's a great sample size, because it's hard to get employers to answer anything. But dude, 540 job seekers is not a ton of people. Joel: I think the rule of thumb, and I'm not a survey expert, but I think the rule of thumb is you look at the potential universe, and then getting as close to 10% of that as possible. So at 10%, 500 would be 5,000. Chad: Not even close. Joel: So a lot more than 5,000 job seekers in the country, so I would've loved to have seen a lot larger sample size. George could've partnered with any job board of significance on the planet and emailed a number of their people, or he could've just put an ad on Facebook and target people. There are probably different ways that he could get a lot of people to answer this question, but 540 is a fairly small sample size. I wouldn't put the gospel around what the results were. Chad: I don't want fucking human beings answering anything. Joel: Well, that's never gonna happen. Chad: We have data. We have fucking data, okay? So it's funny, because this kind of string blew up on social, and there were a few people that were saying, "Oh, that's a fine sample size," and I thought, you know what? It's pretty fucking simple. You can aggregate, many of the people who are in this conversation can actually aggregate the data from their clients, and they can come out with a real number, right? Because this, I don't think is a real number. It's a human survey. Who gives a fuck, right? Give me data. This is not data. This is the problem that I see within our industry today. We are focused too much on noise instead of the actual fucking data, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this. Chad: This survey, quit doing fucking surveys like this. Stop it. Give me fucking data. Don't do stupid surveys when you can get data that will actually give us concrete information. Joel: So I guess you don't have a SurveyMonkey subscription then, right? Chad: So for SurveyMonkey, I mean, SurveyMonkey can be used for many different things, right? You can ask, but not this. You should be able to find data that supports this. Joel: So for the record, if a company wants to survey the employees about where they want to go for dinner on Christmas or the holidays, you're okay with that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Just not big, kind of topic stuff. Or if you want to survey someone about their interview or their exits, that's okay. You're not totally anti-survey. Chad: No. Joel: Just with stuff like this, you want just hard data. Chad: If there is hard data, right? Unless you're polling all of the Yelp information from all your employees or Google reviews for restaurants and whatnot. If you have that data, fucking A. Big brother, have at it, plan your party. In most cases, you don't. In this case, you can get the fucking data. If you don't have the data, then guess what? Don't fucking talk about it. Joel: Because we're getting ready to survey our listeners for their favorite t-shirt, so I just want to make sure that when we do that, they can't come back and say, "We did the survey and you guys hate surveys." Some surveys are okay, just for the record. Chad: Can we actually pull data together that will tell us which t-shirt our listeners like before we actually put those out there? No, we don't. If we had it, we wouldn't be asking the fucking humans, right? But we don't, so we're gonna poll them. Joel: Fair enough, man. We like George. Let's put that out there. Chad: Love George. Joel: Love George. We've interviewed him. Hopefully he'll come back on the show at some point. Chad: He will. Joel: Maybe we'll talk about this survey and he can tell us how we're full of shit and how it's an awesome data set. Chad: Well, there's a couple of things. We could ask him onto the show and we could talk about this. We could also ask the Shane Grays of the world who have companies like Clinch who actually aggregate this data, so it wouldn't just be like a certain client, and could prospectively give us data points on what they're seeing through a litany of different companies, right? That, to me, is a better conversation. Joel: Yeah, and we're interviewing ICIMS about a whole bunch of data here this month, I believe, and maybe we'll talk about what sources are driving the most traffic to their customers. I think that's a much better data point than asking people. Chad: Yes. Joel: I agree. I agree. All right, man, let's move on to Indeed, and you found this story. What's up? Chad: No, actually, one of our listeners hit me up on LinkedIn messenger and really said, "Hey, have you seen a big movement with Indeed hire?" I was like, "No, why?" He's like, "Man, they're calling us left and right." So they're seeing more of a sales push, not to mention he gave me a link to the website which has a video that focuses obviously on the product. It just seems like it's more polished than I've ever seen it before, and that's where I thought it was interesting and it would bring up the interesting discussion around, as you had said before, that you really believe that Indeed is going after the staffing industry and this in itself could be evidence. Joel: Which, I wish we had a sound guy in a booth, but we're just two idiots at desks. I'm pretty sure there's a sound bite somewhere where you think, I'm full of shit thinking that Indeed is getting into staffing. They're getting into staffing. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The video, Google, Indeed Hire. Google Hire. Indeed Hire, they screwed the staffing industry a few weeks ago, kicked them off the site unless they're paying. This is why. They're getting into staffing, and they're getting serious because these videos, the site, it's just very well made. This is where they're going. They're gonna compete with staffing companies for sure. Chad: What I said was, I don't see them going against the Adeccos or the Randstads of the world. They were already in staffing. Do I think that they're going to be a behemoth and, no, I don't. Are they gonna try? Fuck, they just might. I think this is interesting though because back in the day for Monster and CareerBuilder, dude, they were taking their bucks as they were killing them, right? They were taking their dollars. They were sending them traffic as they were slowly bleeding them and killing them, but they just kicked staffing off. We've talked about it before. Some staffing companies are actually spending more money because of that, so- Feffer: Asshole. Chad: Maybe this is part of the grand plan. We're going to get more money out of staffing, and this is how we're going to bleed staffing by kicking them off, because they're already hooked on the crack, and then guess what? We're gonna take their business from them. Joel: I'm clapping because yes, you have encapsulated the whole strategy, and it's a repeat from what they did to job boards. Kick them off, get them to pay, and then slowly bleed them with their own product. Boom, rinse and repeat. Chad: It's worked before. The thing is, I don't know that it'll work on the big ones that are out there, right? The ones who have enormous databases as it is. Joel: To me, it's clearly sold as a, if you don't have the infrastructure currently to place people or find people, we will do that for you. But yes, the large enterprise, folks, I don't know. But this is a clear strike against the staffing industry. Chad: How do you think this is going to impact Europe? Because they're so, I mean, obviously the staffing companies in Europe, that's a part of a company's DNA. Joel: Sure. Well, we've been wondering the buildup in Ireland, the buildup in the UK, whether that's with real estate or people. Maybe this is a big part of it. Let's really take on staffing in a big way, and Europe could be ripe for that. Chad: Could be. Could be, could be. Look out Europe, here comes Indeed. Joel: Look out, yeah. If you've used the Indeed Hire product, like it, love it, hate it, whatever, hit us up at chadcheese.com. We'd love to hear your take on the product. Chad: You know it. Joel: And speaking of products that we know are awesome, let's hear from JobAdX. This is their new ad. Chad: Yes. Joel: I feel like a DJ or a VJ announcing the new Thriller video. Here's the new one from JobAdX, boys and girls. JobAdX: This is sound of job search. ... This is the sound of job search defeat. ... Job search can be frustrating. Job seekers run into the same irrelevant ads, page after page before they find a match. When job seekers aren't engaged, conversions are low. Budgets are wasted. Jobs go unfilled. No one wins. But job search doesn't have to be defeating. JobAdX's smart search exchange references 400 data points to select the most target jobs and delivers what job seekers really want to premium ad units across our network. JobAdX: Score! That's the sound of JobAdX's relevant results attracting a qualified candidates and filling your job faster. Find out how to improve your job advertising campaigns and increase candidate attraction and engagement by emailing us at ... Join us at jobadx.com. JobAdX. Together, we can save job search. Chad: Save it. Joel: I'm in a really good mood after that background soundtrack. I feel like it's from the Brady Bunch or some sort of 70s or 80s sitcom. I like it. I like it. Chad: They were happy the entire time. Yes, I love it. Joel: Yeah. Much improved, JobAdX. Way to go. Shout out to Isabelle, who we know is sort of doing the marketing there now. Chad: Nice. Nice. Joel: At the company. So a topic we never discuss, automation. There's a ton of stuff out there. What do you want to start with? Chad: Let's start with the Brookings Institute report. Joel: Okay. Chad: Talking about the jobs that are going to go away. Where they're at, all that other happy horseshit, and it's pretty simple that many of these jobs, like food prep, production operations like manufacturing, office administration support, farming. This kind of blew my mind. Farming, fishing, and forestry, transportation, construction, and extraction. Those were all above 50%, so they had this index. Food prep was like 81%, so as you go into your McDonald's today and you start to see these boards that you're doing kind of these touch boards where you're ordering your food now, and then you just go to the front and the food's waiting for you there. That's kind of like another step on the food prep piece. Chad: Then we also saw, god, it was a robot called Flippy. It was in California, right? And it would flip the burgers. It would get the burgers right, put it on the bun, have a full burger done for you the way that you ordered it, and a person didn't touch it until they delivered it. Joel: What I find interesting was sort of demographically where, the types of folks that are gonna be impacted the most, and the Brookings Institute study really targeted men, young folks, and minorities for a variety of reasons. I also found it interesting that the rust belt would be particularly harder hit, because a lot of the jobs are boring, repetitive stuff, right? It's- Chad: Production. Joel: Yeah, so it's no mistake that our politics, in large part, are being driven by fear, and there's a ton of fear employment wise. Am I gonna have a job? Particularly in the Midwest and the rust belt where folks are getting displaced by robots, and there's a real fear there of what's going on. What I'm finding is we did the Walmart story last week about Walmart needing drivers. So I kind of went a little bit of maybe we're getting too ahead of ourselves with the whole automation thing, and then this week sort of slapped me in the face, saying like no. We're actually not. Joel: Amazon employs over 100,000 robots in its warehouses, and they employ 125,000 humans. So that gives you an idea of it's almost 50/50 at some place like Amazon. We'll talk about self-driving cars, et cetera. So for me, it's like a lot of this isn't 20, 30, 50, 100 years in the future. This is sooner than maybe we think, and Brookings talked about the automation of by 2040, food preparation, 91% automatable. That's a huge segment of the workforce that 20 years isn't that far away, is gonna be gone, basically. There'll be a manager per store, and that's it. It's all automated at restaurants. Chad: What got me was healthcare support was at 40%. Healthcare practitioners was at 33, and we're starting to see where AI is detecting cancer. Robots can do surgery more efficiently. So there's a lot of this, even in these very difficult types of jobs, being a practitioner, a healthcare practitioner, is pretty amazing, but yeah. You talk about the Walmart piece, and we were talking about Walmart is sucking the air out of the trucking industry, because they're pretty much close to doubling the salary that their truckers to like $90,000, so therefore they're driving retention, not to mention they're sucking the air out of the market by pulling all those drivers in. What can Amazon do? I mean, what can they do? Chad: So we also shared a report about Embark, self-driving trucks delivering a payload from LA to Jacksonville last year, and now Embark, go figure, is partnered up with Amazon. Joel: Shocking. Chad: Yeah. But those gaps, dude. It's all about the gaps. So Amazon says yeah, I have to automate. I have to. I can't do business because I don't have people. I don't have people. When the market flips and there are more people than there are jobs, it's too fucking late, guys. Robots are already in. Joel: Yeah, the efficiency, the cost savings is already in the recipe. It's over. Chad: No sick days. Joel: Yeah, and again, this was another slap in my face to be like, wow. Yeah, I forgot about, was it Budweiser who had a truck load of beer delivered across the country? And then the Amazon thing. We talked a little bit about the little Amazon drones that could be rolling around the sidewalks in a neighborhood near you soon. This stuff is happening, and we report on it. Joel: I also think, to go back to the original, the demographics of it. Young people, you and I both have young kids. Yours are older than mine, but that first job that you get that builds pride and responsibility and all that, and the story on the Brookings Institute talked about half of employment opportunities for 18-24 year olds will be gone within ten years, or will be automated. So imagine all the young people that aren't getting that first foot in the door because of automation. We talk a lot about the old folks that are doing the old manufacturing jobs, but it's young people that are gonna be highly impacted by automation. That's something to worry about as well. Chad: Yes. But again, you take a look at all the gaps that we're experiencing right now, people, and this is one of the things that I think Peter [Weddle 00:29:24] outlined very well on circuit 2118 is that there's opportunity there to get rid of the human friction, and the opportunity happens when there aren't enough humans to go around, which is right now. You can fill those positions with efficiencies and robots and those jobs won't come back. Chad: So we're talking about jobs going to Mexico and that kind of shit. That's nothing guys, those jobs, ah, in some cases, might come back. The ones that go to the robots, that shit's not coming back. Joel: Amen. So Entelo, let's talk about automation recruiting. This was some interesting data. They had a survey come out. What piqued your interest on that from an automation standpoint? Chad: I thought it was funny, because the very first point was 60% of recruiters say finding the right candidate is their top challenge, and 40% say that it's engaging candidates. But then it goes on to say that 37% of recruiters rank email as the preferred outreach mechanism. Joel: Did you say email? Chad: Email. Joel: But you know, it's true. That number did not surprise you. Chad: No, it didn't surprise me because we've got all these old timey fucking recruiters that are out there that aren't, they're not up with texting, with messaging, with actually quick and easy ways to first and foremost, identify candidates. So if you're going to LinkedIn today, and you're trying to source candidates just manually through LinkedIn? Dude, fuck. There are platforms that can do that in seconds, and then you can turn around and start messaging. We've even see, and I'm talking to the guys at Cielo about what they're doing to increase efficiencies for all of their clients and RPO, and it's all around automation. Joel: Isn't it funny how, we talk about email or messaging for a second, the survey as you mentioned, 39% email, 33% phone and text, LinkedIn InMails 13%. That's, LinkedIn was really small. That kind of surprised me, and I don't know exactly what kind of recruiters they were talking to. But if only 13% are using InMails, that doesn't bode well for LinkedIn. So to me, putting in phone with text should totally be separate. If it was phone, I much rather would like to know what phone is versus text than putting those two together. So in next year's survey, let's make sure, Entelo, that we separate phone and text because I think those are very different, and I would also put chat with text as well. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Then taking that next step, 47, almost 50% of recruiters don't track open rates. Over 50% don't track click through rates. So they don't even know how all of this shit is performing. They could have the worst emails in the world, 39% of them, right? Could have the worst emails in the world, and they don't even know how they're performing. They don't know. And again, this is one of the reasons why we have automation and platforms out there, is one of the reasons why obviously Entelo created this automation trends report. But yeah, it's like, guys, get with the fucking times and start looking at the way that you're engaging candidates before you throw them into the fucking black hole. Joel: Yep. Also, I think it underscores the role that drip campaigns may have in the future, because if it's this sort of these one and done emails, you're just scratching the surface of what you could get. All is not lost, now. 75% say technology will play a larger role in their hiring processes next year, this year. 22% planned to increase their spend on AI powered recruiting software. So it's not all lost. There are some innovators, some first movers in this group, so hopefully the next year's survey will reflect that. Joel: Now, I will also underscore from our first story the Entelo survey, 625 talent acquisition professionals, which is more than Larocque surveyed from job seeker data. So good on Entelo for getting a good data set versus Larocque's job seekers, which was even less than what Entelo was able to get for responses for a recruitment survey. Chad: Give me some applause. I'm going to my last point is also 75% of recruiters lack confidence in their ability to leverage AI tools to recruit. Joel: Which is why more and more marketers will need to be recruiters. Chad: Talking to the vendors that are out there, right? So vendors, listen up. The easier you make it for recruiters to actually not even have to use your platform. It just works, making it less human friction will increase adoption. Joel: We're both still waiting for that voice assistant where you say, "Get me a Ruby on Rails developer with 5+ years experience in Seattle. Go." And it just does it, and your schedule gets filled with interviews. Well, this is a fantastic segue to our next sponsor, Canvas. Let's hear from them and their automated service and text messaging. Then we're gonna talk about anti-ghosting magic. Be right back, kids. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvasbot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video, or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io, and in 20 minutes, we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: You've seen the movie Tropic Thunder, haven't you? Chad: Oh god, yes. Joel: So the final scene, like in the credits where Tom Cruise is dancing. Chad: Yes. Joel: I always see that when I hear the Canvas music for some reason. Du du du du du. Chad: G5 player. Joel: I'm the dude playing the dude. Oh man. Chad: So this wasn't planned, but we actually are going to start to talk a little bit about Canvas and ghosting when it comes to employees, right? And candidates. Joel: So I wrote my first story about Mia or Mya. I don't know what we're calling it today, but Mya, sort of the first chatbot that got any kind of decent play. This was in 2016, so they sent out a little PR saying hey, here's some data. Here's what's new with us, et cetera. So I thought three years into this, what's the data showing? What's going on? Joel: The chatbot phenomenon is going strong, and granted, I talked to people who are actually selling this product, so take that with a grain of salt. But the metrics around it are really favorable in terms of reply rate are 90%+, engagement rates are very high, particularly in comparison to email and telephone. Time to hire is being decreased significantly for a lot of these companies that are using chatbots and automation in that standpoint. Interestingly, what I thought, and this was great. Aman Brar, who's the CEO and founder over at Canvas, he's always good for a sound bite. His was messaging or chatbots are, quote, "anti-ghosting magic." Joel: So we talk a lot about ghosting on this show, about millennials and anyone just sort of disappearing from the interview process or even not showing up at work or just leaving after a couple hours. For whatever reason, if you have a ghosting problem, getting on the chatbot train will remedy a lot of that because for whatever reason if people are chatting on an ongoing basis, there's less likelihood of just ghosting you in the recruiting process. Chad: Yes. We did a podcast with Adam Godson from Cielo, one of our badass podcasts, and I think he actually, he was talking about, it might have been an off conversation that we had as well. But Cielo, I know, has automation put in place, much like the Canvas automation that you're talking about, and they have seen dramatic dips in ghosting, because the system actually texts out to the candidates. That kind of ties the candidate in. It was like, are you going to be there today at whatever? Chad: So it's that, first, it's that reminder, because not everybody goes by a calendar, but it's that reminder. And it's that email, or that message that goes out to them making them feel like they're not in a black hole, and it could be just a system, just a process that's actually firing, not an actual human being. But that's not what the person cares about. They just know that you're reaching out to them to remind them that today at 1:00 or what have you, you have an interview. We're looking forward to seeing you or something like that. That means something to a candidate. Joel: And interestingly, so two vendors actually talked about ghosting. Aman talked about it as well as Aaron Matos, our friend at Olivia. His quote was, "Hiring managers and teleprofessionals waste hours of time each week with candidates who ghost or no show to interviews. Thanks to assistance automating both the scheduling and the follow up for interviews, we have clients reporting interview attendance at 98%." A couple of the Mya highlights as well, they talked about 90% of contacts having conversations compared with claims of the industry talking about 37% connect only when relying on human recruiters. Joel: Each completed Mya conversation saved a recruiter 20 minutes and triple the number of candidates that move through the process from application to securing interest of hiring and qualified candidates were scheduled for an interview within 72 hours of submitting their application, which was a 79% reduction in typical time that applications usually turn into interviews. Chad: Adam over at Candidate.ID, who's gonna be in a death match in Lisbon, he's always talking about nurturing candidates, right? And nurturing them with content that's relevant in many cases, but also sending out those little pings, right? Just those little things just to touch base. That means so much to a candidate, and that's what the system is doing that human beings are not. Chad: Real quick, I want to put in a plug for our DEMOpocalypse with Talkpush, because these guys are ... obviously big in the chatbot space, chatbot layered with CRM. So just go to the site. You can click on podcasts and then videos and look for the DEMOpocalypse. But check it out, man. I mean, this is all about process and being able to be more efficient and ensuring that you are nurturing those applicants, those candidates, and even those employees with these different platforms. It's really, really fucking cool. Joel: Yeah. I think this really will be the year that if you're not at least testing out chatbots, you're really gonna be behind on the eight ball, because there are so many vendors, so many companies that are providing this. If you're not using it, you're screwing yourself, because the numbers are pointing to a lot better experience for everybody when chatbots and automation are being used. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chatbots, texting, I mean, just look at everything and blow up your process and focus on efficiencies, because these platforms are made for that. Joel: Which, by the way, a little side note from the sports fans here on the podcast. Nick Saban, as anyone in, at least in the US will know, is the head coach of the Alabama Crimson Tide. There was a story on Deadspin this week about one of his coaches actually just leaving and becoming head coach at some other university. So even Nick Saban is dealing with being ghosted. Chad: I can't believe that. So I guarantee you, Nick forgot several conversations. Dude came to him and said, "Hey look. This is what I'm looking at." I can't believe a dude just cleaned out his office and fucking left without telling Nick Saban. I can't believe it. Joel: Are you accusing Nick Saban of pandering to the media? Chad: Imagine that. Joel: Or heaven forbid, lying to the media? Chad: Yes. Joel: Miami Dolphins. Maybe he's smoking something, which leads us to our next and final story. Chad: Nice segue. Joel: Vangst, I assume I'm saying that right. It's angst with a V in the news this week raised $10 million- Chad: Crazy. Joel: In venture money. I think that brings their total to about $12.5 million. I find it interesting because we rarely find job boards interesting, but the pot industry lives in a bubble from a job board perspective. No traditional job board will touch pot jobs because they're illegal. It's still federal law that you can't smoke pot, so none of the national job boards will post pot jobs because it's the same as posting casino gambling where it's illegal jobs or whatever it is, right? I'm sure there are regulations. Joel: So if you want to get in the job board industry, get into pot, because you live in a bubble. It's like 1999. It's the wild west, and so this company started a couple years ago. It was started out of this woman's dorm, let's say girl because she was in college. It was born out of, she emailed a consumer list that she had. She was selling something out of her dorm. She polled, here we go back to surveys, she polled her fellow college students and said, "What kind of job would you most love to have coming out of college?" Overwhelmingly, a job in the pot industry was really favorable. Joel: So she said, "Holy shit. I gotta start a job board and get all these students that want pot jobs with employers who need to hire them." So she founded this company. It was more or less a job board/staffing company at the beginning. It has since become what we love, one of the on demand employment platforms, so similar to Uber or fill in the blank with whatever, Plated, Snag, et cetera. Students can go out to California, Colorado, wherever it's legal. On their phone, what jobs are available, what hours do I want to work? I assume they're getting high in the hours that they're not working, although they're working in pot. I don't know if that's. Anyway. Joel: So this is, it's just kind of cool to side story in the job board space which is relatively boring in most cases. This is where the action is, and if you believe that pot is gonna be legal in the US, if not most of the world at some point. Chad: Information from a SHRM article that I though was interesting. It's called the ABCs of THC. About 60%, 62% of US respondents to a 2018 Pew research survey said marijuana should be legal. 62%. Now, back in 2000, that was only 31%, so it's doubled. State laws reflect that changing attitude to where about 33 states, there are a shit ton of states today that have legalized medical marijuana, and ten states approved both its medical and recreational use, right? Chad: So the global legal marijuana market is expected to reach 146, over 146 billion by the end of 2025. Joel: Yeah, and I've seen estimates as high as 500 billion- Chad: Fuck. Joel: At it's height. I mean, if you agree that it's gonna be 25% of the tobacco industry, then you're just looking at ridiculous numbers. Chad: Here's something else. So marijuana possession cases, regardless of quantity or a person's criminal record will no longer be prosecuted in Baltimore as the State's Attorney General actually said that. I see more of that happening as well, where it's like look. We've over the years have incarcerated way too many fucking people over weed. Joel: By the way, isn't it strange that former House Speaker John Boehner is like leading the charge. Have you seen these commercials? Chad: Yes. Joel: Like John Boehner pot conferences and pot summits. It's totally bizarre, particularly for guys like us who grew up in the just say no era that the former Speaker of the House that's a Republican is leading the charge about legalized pot. Chad: Always told us gateway drug, man. That's all we heard. Oh, dude, marijuana's the gateway drug. Don't do it man. Joel: Being Gen X sucks, man. Sex was gonna kill you, drugs were gonna kill you, the Russians were gonna kill you. Everyone was gonna kill us growing up. Chad: Pretty much. Joel: So yeah. The kids now have it much easier. I'm getting the munchies with all this high talk. It's time for lunch. I'm out if you are. Chad: I am out. Joel: We out. Chad: We out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad & Cheese Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. Tristen: The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive, shiny, gold pairs that are extra because ... well, I'm extra. For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Marijuana #Ghosting #Texting #Messaging #Indeed #Canvas #Mya #Amazon #Walmart

CareerBuilder acquired a company with a funny name, companies are gaming Glassdoor to make themselves look better (or are they?), and Africa is the next hub for tech talent, compliments of Al Gore, Walmart is looking to corner the trucker talent market. And much more, including weed, porn and hangovers. Enjoy and visit our sponsors, Sovren, JobAdX and Canvas. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions provides training and development to help your workplace leaders and employees integrate with and value people with disabilities. Announcer: Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Chad: Oh yeah! Joel: It's frickin' freezing in here, Mr. Bigglesworth. Welcome to The Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's Most Dangerous and Most Degenerate ... I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: I'm Chad Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, CareerBuilder acquires a company with a kooky name. The Wall Street Journal says Glassdoor employers are behaving badly, for shame, and we pull a podcast hat trick with porn, weed, and hangovers. Chad: Whoo-hoo! Joel: And somehow find a way to tie it all with employment. If there's something below rock bottom. We're certainly shooting for it. Stay tuned after this word from Canvas. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent, text-based interviewing platform empowering recruiters to engage, screen and coordinate logistics via text and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas spot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a bit emoji. We make compliance easy and are laser-focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at goCanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's goCanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: I think you just found a new sponsorship opportunity. Chad: What's that? Joel: The show bloopers. Chad: That's a good one, yeah. That's pretty cool. Joel: There's always the best part of the show anyway, and no one ever gets to hear the way we screw up the show. Because you're so good with that editing pen. Chad: Yeah, it doesn't happen that often. I mean, I don't have to cut out too much. Just some of the stupid rambling that I do in most cases. Joel: Well, hey if there's money involved we can make up some bloopers. Chad: When it gets warmer out, we need to spend some time in Indianapolis with the Canvas crew, go out for drinks or something. I haven't seen those guys in a while. Joel: Now why does weather have to be a reason to go see them? They're still there in winter. Chad: Yeah, I don't know that Aman comes out. Joel: I want to know if the bottle of Jergens is still on the conference room table. Chad: It wasn't just Jergens, dude. It was Jergens and Kleenex right next to it. Joel: Yes. I had forgotten that. My brain had conveniently filtered that information out. Yeah. Chad: Don't worry, I'll help, I'll help. Joel: The Canvas crew works really hard. Let's put it that way. Chad: Yes. Yes. And that being said, let's go on to shout out since we're talking about the up in Indianapolis, big indie shout out to Eli Lilly. You actually shared some stuff. What did you find out about Eli Lilly? Joel: Okay, Eli Lilly and company began a concentrated effort four years ago to recruit, mentor, encourage and support women in senior leadership positions. And today's six of 14 Executive Committee members are women. The company was recently recognized for the Catalyst Award for these efforts. So shout out to Eli, a local company. They've been doing good stuff for a long time. So it's good that they're getting some recognition for it. Chad: Yeah, big shout out Eli Lilly. That is awesome. If you want to be able to actually impact your ranks, this is how you do it. You put programs in place and you execute and big shout out to Eli Lilly. So I'm sure there's some other companies that are out there that are doing it. Joel: Maybe- Chad: Throw them our way. We'd love to talk about. Joel: And maybe we should send that news out to Oracle who's had some issues lately, right? Chad: Oracle's totally fucked up, man. That being said, let's talk about a genius company. KFC. Joel: KFC. Chad: Remember the fireplace logs they had that smelled like chicken? Joel: I'm burning one right now. What are you talking about? Chad: Dude! They fucking came out with candles that smell like gravy. Genius people. Joel: What's next? Taco Bell with candles that smell like chalupas? Can life get any better? Do we not live in the best time in human history? Good lord, KFC. Chad: Yes. Genius. Joel: Shout out to Hireology, company that actually from what I understand has like company sanctioned, scheduled meetings to listen to our show. Chad: It's kind of like a book club. So they get together, they have this monthly Chad and Cheese podcast club. So it's like a book club, right? We're gonna have to get some more intel. I think you listen to the pods right? And then you all come together and you talk about it. It sounds like every company should have one of these. Joel: It sounds like a harassment case waiting to happen, but I certainly appreciate if you're out there listening Hireology and apparently you are because you have sanctioned meetings or book clubs or whatever, just take a couple pictures hashtag it #ChadCheese and show us exactly what the hell is going on over there at Hireology. Chad: Yeah, and do you have to sign like a waiver or something like that? Joel: I will not sue the company for harassment for making me listen to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: Shout out to Glenn Martin over at the Digital Works Group who posted on LinkedIn about the #SocialRecruiting show last Friday. Remember, you couldn't understand why Katrina and Audra would have me on to the show. [crosstalk 00:05:54] Joel: Still can't. Chad: Well, let me read this post. Essential watching/listening as the recruitment whirlwind that is Chad Sowash talks to the wonderful Katrina Collier and the hard rocking Audra Knight. Whirlwind says Glenn, whirlwind. Joel: Yeah, one man's whirlwind is another man's airbag, so you know, take that however you want to hear that. Speaking of airbags and whirlwinds, Indeed's annual meeting this year is bringing in SNL veteran Amy Poehler into to keynote. That's an odd one to me, but it should be funny, I guess, right? Like she can at least make a little bit of the Google pain go away for a while with jokes. Chad: Indeed needs to make their clients and partners laugh somehow because they're fucking them the other way, right? So it's like here's a whole 40 minutes or so of laughter while you forget all the pain that we're causing everywhere else. Joel: I like it. It's not a bad strategy. Laughter is the best medicine. Chad: I agree. I agree. A shout out to Jim Stroud, thanks for all the social love, my man. And if you guys aren't listening to The New Jim Stroud podcast, take a listen. Just go to JimStroud.com. Our man over there put together some really cool stuff. He's doing this short podcast that is kind of like on the freaky side of recruiting. So almost like a Black Mirror kind of style of thing. So it's kind of out there, but it's fun to listen to. Joel: Black Mirror kind of podcasts? Interesting. Chad: Uh huh. Yeah. Joel: Jim's an interesting cat. Go check that shit out. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: I have a little bit of a side rant/just insightful shout out, I guess, to a couple of college kids that I had lunch with yesterday. Chad: Oh, Jesus. Joel: Who are launching a job board. They didn't really like what I had to say. But much like young kids are going to do it anyway 'cause mom and dad don't know shit. So they're gonna launch this job board. Anyway, what I found interesting in my discussion with them is I was expecting to hear some really cool information and context around how college kids are hustling, right? Are they on Upwork? Are they selling shit on eBay? Are they driving Ubers in their spare time? What are college kids doing? And I was incredibly disheartened to hear the answer that no one's doing shit. So I don't know if it's this particular school or particular whatever, but I was really bummed to hear that college kids aren't hustling with all of the online opportunities that are out there. Joel: So I don't know if that's on the college, on the students, on the whole system. But man, if I had had just eBay in college, I would have been hustling my ass off. Chad: My daughter who is in college now, she has a hustle where she is an online stylist and she's been doing this since she was in high school. She was a high schooler hustling. And she was styling 40 year old women. They didn't know she was in high school. But they loved the styles that she put together. Now she's a college kid. So it's much cooler, but she is hustling her ass off. Joel: I don't know what a designer is. Maybe we can take that one offline because I don't really care that much. Chad: But she's hustling. That's all it matters, dude. Joel: People now have more opportunity to hustle than ever before. Like, you can say like yeah, GenX and Baby ... Like technology has made hustling so easy and so efficient and so cheap that I'm just surprised not everybody's doing it. I thought they'd all be like competing with each other on what they could do, and how much they're making and everything else. But at least in this situation, everyone's just going to school to get a job for 40 years and die. Chad: They don't realize that's how it works today. Or I don't get it. Okay. Joel: I don't know, dude. I'm old. I don't know. Let's get some kids on the line and figure out why aren't they hustling? What the fuck is going on with these people? Chad: Yeah, I don't know that I could put up with that. Shout out to HCMTechReport.com. I'm voicing and ad libbing some news roundups for them for Mark and the crew. They put a shit ton of content together. And I reached out to Mark and he does interviews every now and again. And he interviewed me. And I said "Dude, I'll do some voice for some of the things that you guys put out." And they're starting to do more of that. And as we see, like from our standpoint, we do a show and then we get it transcribed. They're working at the other angle. He's still writing his ass off, much like you do. Writing his ass off, but then there's going to be that audio angle as well. And I think that's really cool to be able to see some of these old timey, text driven articles turn into something that's more portable. Joel: So anytime that you want to badger me for napping, I want people to remember that you just said "I write my ass off." Chad: Text and Twitter characters. And then Talk Push Demopocalypse. Did you see the new video that they just popped out, promoting Demopocalypse? Joel: Yeah, it's a professional video. It's great. Chad: Yeah. So this is the thing that I keep telling companies is that so when you do a demo with us, or you do a demo at all, right? You have so much content to be able to play off of to be able to do these awesome short videos, so on and so forth. These guys put one together that just kicks ass. And hopefully they'll be able to put out more because again, there's like half an hour of content. But I don't believe that recruiting and branding professionals are taking all the content that's thrown into their lap and using it like this. That's a missed opportunity, man. Joel: Yeah, video's great because you do one video and you've got multiple videos, you've got text. You've got probably audio for a podcast. Yeah, video's great. Definitely leverage it and use it. And I think I'm hearing a little bit of a promotion for our demopocalypse product, am I? Chad: Oh yeah. I mean, if you're a company that's out there and you are looking to launch, you're looking to push out new features or you just want people to see your shit, you can do that with Chad and Cheese. We're only doing two a model. Joel: Only two. Chad: We're only doing two a month because we don't want to be frickin' avalanched with this shit. But yeah it's awesome and if you take a look at what Talk Push did, I think one of many videos that they're actually going to put out, it's a great way to really get your brand and your message out to people that you want to get in front of. Joel: It's also a great reason for Chad and I to have a beer, which we always need excuses to do that, right? Chad: Yes. That's always a good excuse. Joel: Well you have, speaking of great video, you love a recent commercial by Aeroméxico. Tell me about that. Chad: Dude, this is the funniest fucking thing. So Aeroméxico is definitely trolling Americans. They go down to the border states, which has a good amount of bland of Mexican heritage, obviously, DNA crossover, right? Joel: Sure. Chad: And they ask these Americans "Hey, would you like to come over and visit Mexico?" You know, tour Mexico. There's great tourism spots and the people that they're talking about are "No, no. You guys stay over there, we'll stay over here." And then, they do a DNA test with them. Tell the listeners why it was so fucking funny. Joel: Well, so a little context, the demographic of who they're interviewing are Texans where their signs in town that say we don't need 911 because they have guns basically. So this is the audience they're talking to. They tell one guy who I don't know, he looks like he's out of a '50 sitcom. They tell him he is 22% Mexican. And he just says "Bullshit." And then they asked one guy who wouldn't go to Mexico like "Do you like burritos?" "Yeah." "Do you like tequila?" "Yeah." And he gets a discount to go and says "Well, I guess I'd go if you know there's a Taco Bell on every corner." Just little things like that remind me how great America is and how progressive our attitudes are. Chad: Well, and it's just hilarious that Aeroméxico they're doing this whole trolling thing and saying "Look guys, you have this opinion of Mexico, but it's in your DNA. It is in your goddamn DNA, people. And guess what? You get a discount. Come on over and see us." And some of their faces when they saw that they actually had 15, 16, 22% discounts, they're like "Oh, okay." Yeah, their whole attitude changed when they thought oh, I could go and it would be cheaper. Joel: When are you gonna do your DNA, dude? Chad: I don't know. That's a good question. I should probably get that done. Joel: Do you want to? You want to, right? Chad: Julie won't have it down. Oh, I don't see why not. I mean- Joel: Julie won't do it? Chad: The government already has my DNA, right? I served 20 years in the military. So it's not like it's not out there everywhere. So yeah, I would definitely like to do it. Julie, she's totally paranoid. She does not want to have anything to- Joel: Why? That's weird. Why? Chad: It's like the Big Brother stuff, man. It's all the DNA thing. And I don't know, I think she would. Joel: Yeah, no, I think it was great. I did it and it was really cool. I think knowing where you came from is what everyone should sort of know a little bit about. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: Shout out to The Gathering. Most Americans, speaking of smart fun, Americans won't know The Gathering. But it's an event in Canada, in beautiful Banff. I said it correctly, I think, near Calgary. Very scenic ski resort kind of town. We're going to get together with a bunch of branding experts, CEOs, a lot of forward thinking companies. Hopefully we'll get some great content and interviews while we're there. In addition to having probably pretty good time. Chad: This is real, high powered branding. And they're talking about cult brands and it's funny when we think about cult brands, we think about the Apples of the world, right? People who stand in line for the product and really for the brand or Marvel who stand in line for the movies. Airbnb, Porsche, I mean all these really big brands are going to be there talking about branding. Joel: Don't forget Cinnabon when we're talking about standing in line because I've been in that line more than once. Chad: That's a good call. That's a good call. So I think it's going to be awesome from our standpoint to be able to bring kind of like the employment angle into that conversation as we get an opportunity, cross my fingers, to interview some of these high powered branding moguls from huge brands. Joel: Yup, absolutely. Absolutely. Could I give a shout out to Talroo for their secret project? Would that be kind of a nice teaser? Chad: I think you just did it. So yeah. Joel: Okay, we did it. We did it. We're gonna to be going down to Austin for little secret marketing thing. So not giving too much away. That should be really fun. We're pretty excited about what they're up to down there. Chad: We are. We're also excited about RecFest. We're going to RecFest that's in July. Tickets are on sale. So go to RecFest. Check it out. It's going to be in London. TA Tech, their AI event, which is in Phoenix, Scottsdale, something like that. Go to TAtech.org. Check that out. And last but not least, right now we're going to many more, but these are the ones that I know are open for registration, SmashFly’s Transform Live event, which is going to be in Boston this year. Chad: We will be there and I believe they are now open for registration. So get your ass out there. Register. Buy your tickets, whatever the hell it is and learn some shit people. Not to mention buy us a beer. We'd love it. Joel: Let's get to the news. Chad: Boom. Joel: Good god, our shout outs were 20 minutes long. We got to put a moratorium on that. Chad: It's less than that because you fucked up the- Joel: Oh, that's true. That's true. It's still too long. All right. CareerBuilder, our buddies, officially acquired Textkernel this week. The company took a 60% stake in Textkernel back in 2015. For those who listen to the show know that couple years after that, CareerBuilder jumped into bed with Google to run their search which was kind of what Textkernel does. So it kind of look like they were going to move away from Textkernel. Well, guess again. This week they got full in on Textkernel and acquired the company. This however does not mean that they're dumping Google Search technology. A spokesperson told me that they'll be combining the two technologies for some cool and innovative stuff. Joel: A couple takeaways for me on this is they're bringing in 120 Textkernel employees, many of whom I believe were engineers. Thinking about how much talent CareerBuilder has bled throughout the last couple years it's kind of interesting that they'll just add another 120 to the bottom line. Also a little bit skeptical that they'll keep Google long term, by buying and making the investment in Textkernel. But we'll see about that, I guess. Chad: Yeah, there are so many different types of search. Obviously there's the job search that the candidate does when they get on to your site. There's a ton of matching that happens behind the scenes, which they're not using Google API for right now. So there's that which Textkernel could obviously plug into. So I mean- Joel: Searching resumes. Chad: Yeah, definitely searching resumes. I think there are so many different things that they could use this technology for. And I mean, I've heard for years that Textkernel is amazing semantic search. So we'll see. I know that Google is eyeing the opportunity to launch an API that will be a candidate search type of AI matching API. Will Career Builder go full Google with that, I think this says no. They'll stick with the job search piece and the job search obviously different than the candidate search and some of the other products that could prospectively have. Chad: But this is nice for them because they know the Google job search is working and it's working better than anything they had before. So they can focus on other areas where they could actually provide product for employers. That's worth a shit. Joel: Let's add some automation stuff to that and it gets kind of interesting. You know, I've been always pretty critical of their innovation over there at CareerBuilder last few years, augmented reality. So hopefully bringing in some new blood on the tech side will help develop some cool products going forward. I also think if they do move away from Google, like I'm not mad at him for that. I think that, you know, we talked to Monster CEO and kind of owning that and not giving that to Google, although we agree as a cost efficiency and probably Google searches better than anything else. Also, seeing Google evolve into a competitor would make anyone a little bit wary. So maybe that's what we're seeing Career Builder do with the Textkernel acquisition. Chad: Right. Well, I mean we're seeing Google do the candidate matching inside of Hired by Google. So we know that's happening and they're doing all the wonderful testing behind that. And they have partners like the ISEMs and Jives of the world that they can work with to be able to finally tune those things. So yeah, I mean I think it's a good opportunity for CareerBuilder to get some fucking engineers in that place for goodness sakes, and hopefully focus on employer products that just kick ass which is different than the actual job search itself, which is working well. Chad: So if they can get focused, they can get priorities in place I think that's a good thing. And it's funny I was text messaging some internal people at CareerBuilder and people who just left not too long ago and they're all positive about it. And one of the guys said "Yeah, I'm really interested to see how you guys spin this into how it's all fucked up." I'm like "Dude, I don't see it yet, but maybe it will." Joel: Well, what's fucked up is the name. So hopefully they'll either dump it or change it to something else because I'm really tired of these like hokey, farmy, Corn Kernel, Text Rooster, Job Rooster, Recruiting Rooster, Horse Job. Let's ditch the whole farm-like theme. And I know Kernel is like a kernel of information, but I think of a corn kernel. And maybe that's because we live in the Midwest but Textkernel in general is just a dumb name and it says nothing really about the technology that they have. So hopefully they'll dump it or change it or something. So that's my criticism of the deal. Get rid of the name Textkernel. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also got another text from somebody else say "Everybody pretty much thought that CareerBuilder owned TextKernel anyway." When I saw the story pop out, I had to check the date. It was like oh, yeah, that's right. They had a majority stake, they just didn't own the entire company. But this individual who just texted me said "Those Textkernel guys probably want to kill themselves right now." Joel: Why? Chad: Being pulled into a dumpster fire. I don't know. Joel: Okay. Yeah, yeah. They're nice little happy Amsterdam existence or wherever they're from has been postponed till further notice. I'd say get on CareerBuilder, like innovate by acquisition, get talent. You know, if this is what you want to do, do it. That's all I have to say about that. I'd say we have on to the Glassdoor Wall Street Journal story. Chad: Yeah, your favorite, talking about those reviews. Joel: Yeah, this was interesting. Wall Street Journal who is typically known for pretty hard hitting journalism did I guess a study where they looked at companies and review spikes during certain times of their existence and you know when an excessive amount of five star reviews happened during certain times. And I mean basically kind of called companies guilty of sort of stacking the deck on their reviews and getting employees to write good reviews and whatnot. They did have maybe one or two actual quotes from employees who said that they were told or asked to write good reviews. The companies they had employees from weren't really big companies. They talked about Tesla, a few other big ones. Joel: But I find it a little disingenuous. I won't go into the fake news territory, but I mean, companies really ... Like to me there's nothing wrong if a company wants to make a concerted effort to try to get more reviews. That doesn't mean that they're saying give us five star reviews or you're fired. It just means like hey, let's strategically target our happy employees and invite them to write reviews. That's still anonymous. We still don't know who did it. I'm just saying like there are things that companies do to improve their rankings or get more involvement by employees and it doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to stack the deck or get five star reviews. I know that stuff goes on. I know stuff. People buy reviews, et cetera. But for the most part, I do think that companies aren't trying to game the system. Joel: Additionally if you're telling employees to do that, ultimately one or two employees are going to go to Glassdoor and say "Hey, I was told to write a five star review. Fuck my company like they suck." Right? Like that's probably going to happen if you do that. So I'm a little skeptical of The Wall Street Journal article. What do you think? Chad: I kind of side with Hung Lee. We just did an interview with them and he felt much like I do that the anonymous side of reviews. You know you've got to be skeptical about that. And also the buying reviews and whatnot, which we've seen in big platforms like Amazon. So you have to take it with a grain of salt. I know that I was in a company at one time and I've also heard of other companies where it felt like they were being strong-armed almost into doing these reviews. It was part of weekly team conversations and those types of things. Right before their annual reviews. So it didn't happen all the time. It was right before annual reviews, right? So it's almost felt like they were being strong-armed and doing these things. Chad: You know, it was interesting. Some employers on Facebook were taking the side that you were saying look. You know they were defending Glassdoor and what it felt like to me was back in the days of Monster when Monster was being like total shit heads and assholes, but companies were spending money with them. And they felt like they had to defend because they were spending money there. And if anything was coming bad out of the money that was actually being spent it could prospectively impact them. That was the feeling that I got out of it. "Well, I've been working with Glassdoor forever and there's no way that this could happen in a large scale." It's like "Okay. You say that, but do not realize the shit that's happened at Facebook, the shit that's been happening in Amazon. I mean, come on guys. You've got to open your eyes to this shit." Joel: Yeah. I mean happens to what degree. I mean not one size fits all. What I would've found interesting from the Wall Street Journal story is if they had also gone to Indeed's reviews, maybe looked at Twitter, maybe looked at like multiple different platforms to see if the same trend happened on all of those other platforms because it's pretty hard to like have a concerted strategy around we're going to bump our Glassdoor, we're going to bump our Indeed, we're going to bump our Comparably, we going to bump our InHerSight. That would take a lot of work and that's very hard to do. So if Wall Street Journal would have done multiple platforms, they could have said this only happened on Glassdoor and not the other ones, so maybe there's something fishy there. Chad: And you would have thought that they could have cross reference with many of those other review sites, but shit they probably don't even know they fucking exist. Joel: They should have talked to Ratedly. Chad: Yeah, they could have. If they just had the Ratedly app. Joel: Yeah. I kind of hooked him up with some data for that shit. Joel: All right, well before this turns into a Ratedly commercial, let's hear an actual commercial from Sovren, with a little Walmart and Al Gore. Chad: Nice. Sovren: Sovren AI matching is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why they produce them. And offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. To learn more about Sovren AI matching, visit Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Chad: We're gonna have to make sure that we get ahold of our Sovren peeps as we head down to Austin here pretty soon. Joel: That's a good call. That's a good call. We're also Xor, one of our favorite firing squad company just down there in Austin. Maybe we can drink some Russian vodka while we're there to see them as well. Chad: I'll do it. Joel: Twist my arm. Vodka with Russians. Love it. Chad: Hope I wake up with both my kidneys. Joel: God. All right. Speaking of transporting illegal items, Walmart wants to hire 900 drivers this year with average salaries of am I hearing this right? 90K to drive a truck? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Damn. Chad: Yeah, I mean, so take a look at the market. So in 2018, the turnover for truckers was 96% just because obviously, the landscape is so competitive. And there's a shortfall, I believe it is like 50,000 drivers. So the 8,000 truckers working for Walmart today are getting a raise. And that raise equates to around $90,000. They the way that they did the math, it was like 87,500, but that's comparing to do DOLs numbers in 2018 for the median annual pay for a trucker was $53,000. Chad: So that's one hell of a boost. And I think that will help obviously Walmart in a couple of ways. Number one, retention, right? We're going to pay you a hell of a lot more money, not to mention, we're also going to look at doing work schedules that are routine work schedules. So, you know when you're going to be home, you know when you're going to be with the family, so on and so forth. So there's some things that they're trying to do to ensure that they have retention. Number two, there are also some things that they're doing, I would say, to be able to disrupt Amazon and they're shipping because Amazon's already having issues and having to raise prices from a shipping standpoint. So I see this not only from a retention standpoint, but from a competitive landscape standpoint. Yeah, there's a big, big war that's going to be waged here. Joel: Is it starting to feel like we're farther and farther away from self driving cars, or is that just my imagination? Chad: No, dude, I see this happening right now. This is just a part of the battle, right? This is the human piece of the battle. Behind us they, I guarantee you, are pushing money into autonomous vehicles and then the individuals who have to be in the cab at first, obviously they're not going to make $90,000, right? But there's going to be this slow kind of push of humans out of the cab of the truck because at the end of the day, Amazon and Walmart, everybody, they want to be able to raise those margins. The way that they do that is the cut overhead. This is all overhead. Joel: Have you seen Amazon's scout drone thingy? Chad: Yes. Joel: It's like this little four wheel dump truck thing that rolls down the sidewalk. The commercial, I don't know the intricacies. I'm sure a lot of people saw this. The little car, the little Tonka truck drives up to your house. I'm sure it'll alert you on your phone. You go out. I'm sure your phone unlocks the truck and then you get your item and then it goes off and delivers more stuff. And I'm not sure what to think about that. Like I know if I were a teenager that would be so ripe for graffiti destruction. Louisville Slugger to the back end. Like just a world where like drones and these little cars are delivering items to people, do you have a hard time envisioning that or is it just me? Chad: No. We're already seeing that like the scooters that you just walk up to and you like- Joel: Yeah. Chad: We're already seeing those being demolished and thrown into dumpster, shit like that right? So yeah, I could definitely see that. I think those types of delivery systems will definitely have cameras on them so they will be able to identify who's doing this. So there'll be a lot of hoodies and masks to ensure that they can't identify. But yeah, that's just going to happen, there's no question human beings are fucking stupid and they like to destroy. It's true. Joel: All right. I have no other comment for that. But I just think, yeah, it'd be a great world if drones were delivering pizzas and these little trucks are delivering, you know, whatever. But it just seems really hard, especially in big cities. Chad: We heard reports that I think it was Lyft or no, it was Waymo. So Waymo, it's marked that it's an autonomous vehicle, even though it has somebody in the seat, right? Joel: Oh yeah. Chad: That other cars were trying to run ... Uber's we're trying to run these Waymo cars off the road. So we already have reports that this shit ... It's like the whole kind of Luddite uprising shit where it's like "Oh, look, there's not a person." Well, there was a person in there, but we're just going to run this bitch off the road. Same shit like you're talking about with these delivery systems. Or kids shooting BB guns or whatever the hell they have at these drones. Yes, that shit's gonna happen. Humans are fucking stupid. Joel: Doing this podcast has not enriched my impression of mankind unfortunately. Okay, well there's hope in Africa. Chad: Yes. Joel: Al Gore is back in the news here. His fund invested I guess $100 million in training, educating Africans in high tech jobs and then outsource contracting them that talent across the globe, which I think is wonderful. It's basically India 10 years ago, 15 years ago. You know, Africa was bound to be the hub for like cheap engineering talent. And we're seeing signs of that now. Chad: Yeah, the big difference here is that they're going after quality and not cheap dev. The company's names Andela. They now operate in Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda. They have about 1,100 developers on staff working for more than 200 companies, nearly 90% of which are in the US. So yeah, I mean, the big piece here is they want to focus on being able to ensure that we're getting the tech talent that we need, especially in an age where unemployment so high and it's investors say remote work can also help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, right? Chad: So I mean there's kind of like [crosstalk 00:35:20] flavor to it because obviously Al Gore's involved, but from my standpoint, I think we've talked about it on the show for, shit I think since the show has started that Andela is actually doing a contract, train and then pipeline program, which means they're getting these individuals on contract, then they're teaching them up, right? They're learning them up. They're giving them the skills in which to do the job. But they're on contract for two years, three years, whatever that might be. Chad: Now you have a pipeline of developers and they have crazy amounts of analytics to see what types of code is actually being put out. Is it good code? Is it failing? Is it successful? So they're doing this with an eye toward the future and actually pipelining talent. I've been saying this forever. This is the actual process, this the actual type of program we should be putting together in this country. These least 200 companies that are actually using them today, they should be doing this shit themselves. They should be doing it here, obviously, but also abroad. It makes no sense why this isn't a standard. Joel: Can I get socially conscious for a second? Chad: I don't know. Joel: So there are a few things that bug me, like chopping off rhinoceros horns for medicine in China and like elephant tusks for shit around the world- Chad: That's bullshit. Joel: That really stupid and it happens because people in Africa in this case don't have opportunity. You know, don't have education, don't have like hope that there's something better than I have to go chop a horn off of a rhinoceros to make money to feed my family. So when I see stories like this, it gives me hope that technology, capitalism, progress will in some weird way save the old world, or like nature and educate people. And so to me, obviously, yes, from a commercial standpoint, this is very interesting. It's great. I think the more talent that's out there doing this stuff is fantastic. But from a social perspective, I love seeing that these things are happening in parts of the world where bad things are happening to the environment and to animals that are just minding their own business and have no reason and no benefit at all for doing what we do to them. Joel: Slicing fins off of sharks for soup is another thing that really bothers me, but you get the point. Just a little bit of a rant for social consciousness. We'll move on to weed porn and alcohol here in a little bit. Chad: Well, it just makes good damn sense that we focus in a global economy and to try to go back, World War II's isolationism, Lindbergh's America first bullshit. You can't do that. It didn't work. It won't work. Our community is much larger because of the internet because of technology. We just have to think in with more broader scope and these types of programs I think are amazing, but they can also be implemented here in the US along with abroad. Joel: I agree and we talk about automation a lot and losing jobs. To me the thing that will save it is if we give education and the tools to the world to create new businesses, to create new products, to create new innovations, like to me that's probably going to save us from circa 2118. If we put the power of education and innovation in more people's hands, that'll create the jobs and the opportunity that will sort of combat the automation of so many industries. Chad: Done. Joel: I won't be alive to see it, but damn it, maybe that'll happen. Chad: Yeah, we'll be living through the second version of the Dark Ages. Joel: All right, let's get a quick word from JobAdX. Chad: Is this a new one? Joel: No, they're not letting us run the new ad yet. They're still pimping the birthday ad. So you have to wait till February to hear the new JobAdX, which is appropriate because Super Bowl new JobAdX, maybe it all ties together really well with Tom Brady's next Super Bowl appearance. Here it is, JobAdX. JobAdX: With JobAdX's first birthday almost here, we are proud of all we've accomplished with advertising clients, publisher job sites, recruitment marketing agencies and staffing firms. Thank you for all the support and trust you've placed in us. Since 2017, JobAdX has used the best of consumer ad-text bidding and ad delivery to build an incredible programmatic job advertising exchange, and continue to rapidly grow our network of partners sites. We've also launched a feed inventory management platform called Switchboard, effectively offering our dynamic technologies to all job board partners. And we've developed our revolutionary LiveAlert which eliminate latency and expired job ads via email. No more dead clicks or overages from job links whether open today, next month or next year. For more information about our solutions, please reach us at joinus@jobadx.com. Chad: Now that is a JobAdX commercial, but stop teasing us guys. So government shutdown. 800,000 people are impacted. Joel: It's a lot of folks. They got a lot of time on their hands. Chad: They do have a lot of time on their hands. So you saw that PornHub saw a bump in traffic over this timeframe. Joel: Sure. Well, we reported last week I think that Upwork and Fiverr and some of the gig sites are getting a spike in activity. Well, shocker. All these government workers with extra time on their hands are going to porn sites and reported by Mashable, PornHub saw a spike, no pun intended, in its traffic. Saw an average daily increase of almost 6% during the week of January 7th, which was the shutdown's third week over traffic from the previous year's traffic. I'm looking at a bar graph now and there's a nice steady uptick. It is erecting quite nicely in terms of traffic to porn sites. So I'm wondering if job boards are seeing a similar spike in their traffic as well. Chad: Yeah, I bet. And they also showed that in Washington DC, it was higher than 6%. So yes, they did see it like an average overall, but in DC specifically, it was over 6%. I don't know. I would assume that these individuals who are sitting at home, they're furloughed or what have you, they're not just sitting and waiting. I actually the hell wouldn't. Obviously the gig site thing is going on. They're driving Uber. They're watching PornHub. What's next? You look for another fucking job because I'm telling you right now this shit could happen again and what the fuck are they going to do, right? They can't survive this way. Joel: Of course they can't. I'm waiting for the story to hear how many people are being poached to the private sector because of the ongoing shutdown. Chad: FBI was talking about this. Many of their agents could get three times the amount that the government pays them and why put up with this bullshit with somebody who's you know saying that the FBI is fucking deep state and all this other bullshit? Why put up with this when I could go make some big cash and not have to worry about this shit happening anymore. Joel: Agreed. And we've got the Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross, I don't know if you saw this today, the today being Thursday, said ... You know, someone asked the question "Hey, people are in soup kitchens. They're really hurting. They're sacrificing, et cetera." And his comment was "I do read that and I don't understand it. They can all go to a bank and get a loan because all this money is federally backed, that they will get paid." I'm sure that's true, but how many people are actually going to go to the bank and get a loan for a month's worth of salary because their money is federally funded. It sounds really sort of tone deaf to me that the Commerce Secretary said just go get a bank loan. The money is federally backed. Chad: Yeah, it's not kind of tone deaf. It is fucking tone deaf. Every time I see Wilbur, I always think of Weekend at Bernie's and think that that fucker's not really alive and somebody just kind of moving him around like a fucking Muppet. Yeah, dude, I don't get it. We're hearing so many things that really are contrary to understanding that I think it was 40% of Americans live somewhat paycheck to paycheck. Those individuals don't understand what that means. So they can't even come close to trying to comment on it. The only thing that can make this right is to be able to ensure that they get back to their jobs or they might already be at their jobs, they get fucking paid. That's it. Joel: It almost makes you want to smoke weed and drink alcohol, which leads us to our last two stories. A company in the US here is giving out what they're calling donations of weed to government workers. Company called Bud Trader, gotta love that donating medical marijuana, I guess that's one of the workarounds there for illegal weed, giving them to furloughed workers if they're willing to ask for it. So we've got free weed and we've got hangover cures. Wanted to be a shout out, but I think it's an actual story. Joel: Company called Morning Recovery is pushing ads saying that American companies lose $4 billion every year because of hangovers and employees drinking too much. Now I'm wondering if Morning Recovery is on next to the coffee, tea that that get people ... Maybe some companies are out there doing it because hangovers are a real problem, people. So we've got weed smoking furloughed workers that are at least going to be rejuvenated when they go back to work after drinking for nights on end. Chad: Yeah, I don't know that they can afford the liquor right now, but this should be a part of like corporate practice is what it sounds like. So most of those people won't make it in, in the first place. So make sure that they have like their own kit, their own like emergency hangover kits that they have right beside their nightstand or what have you. So it's like hey, when you get up in the morning you feel like shit, guess what? Take this, get in the shower, and then get your ass to work. Joel: That's like the recovery kits that companies gave out at HR Tech that one year. Also, if companies put out a hangover relief sort of drink, are they encouraging drinking? I could see that being an issue. Chad: No, no. They're not encouraging drinking. It's like saying you want to ensure that people have protected sex. Are you promoting that they have sex? No, they're gonna have sex. I mean, it's what they're going to do, right? Joel: Yeah, but companies aren't putting out bowls of condoms in the break room. Chad: That's because having sex doesn't stop people from actually coming to work. But prospectively drinking obviously does, right? If it did, then they would. If it was a problem and they were losing money, then they would. But that's not the case. In this case, it's the people who are getting drunk. So yeah, I mean, make it a standard. Hey, here you go. Here's your kit. We know that there's the Christmas parties coming up, or the holidays party is coming up, shift it out to those guys and say "Can't wait to see you Monday morning." Joel: I think they're a lot for Pedialyte and Red Bull instead of something like Morning Recovery, but that's just me. Joel: Dude. I'm at a gas. We out. Chad: We out. Tristen: Hi, I'm Tristen. Thanks for listening to my stepdad, the Chad, and his goofy friend Cheese. You've been listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss out on all the knowledge dropping that's happening up in here. They made me say that. Tristen: The most important part is to check out our sponsors because I need new track spikes. You know, the expensive, shiny gold pair that are extra because, well ... I'm extra. Tristen: For more, visit chadcheese.com. #Careerbuilder #Glassdoor #TextKernal #Andela #Training #Workforce #Walmart #Amazon #Pornhub #BudTradercom #Shutdown #Government #Trucking

Over 11,000 subscribers tune into Hung Lee's Recruiting Brainfood every week. To say the dude knows his shit is an understatement, and Chad & Cheese explore a wide variety of topics with this snarky Brit. Enjoy this Nexxt EXCLUSIVE. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community.​ Announcer: This the Chad and Cheese Podcast brought to you in partnership with TAtech. TAtech, the associate for talent, acquisition, solutions. Visit tatech.org. Chad: Okay, Joel. Quick question. What happens when your phone vibrates or you're texting alert goes off? Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. And I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now. Chad: Yeah, I know. I call it our Pavlovian dog reflect in text messaging. Joel: Yeah, that's probably why text messaging has a freaking 97% open rate. Chad: What? Joel: Crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone. Chad: Which are all great reasons why the Chad and Cheese Podcast love Text2Hire from Nexxt. Joel: Love it. Chad: Yeah, that's right. Nexxt with the double X, not the triple X. Joel: Bomb chicka bow wow. So if you're in talent acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI, that stands for return on investment, folks, and because this is the Chad and Cheese Podcast, you can try your first text to hire campaign for just 25% off. Boom. Chad: Wow! Joel: So how do you get this discount, you're asking yourself right now. Tell them Chad. Chad: It's very simple. You go to chadcheese.com and you click on the Nexxt logo in the sponsor area. Joel: Easy. Chad: No long URL to remember. Just go where you know, chadcheese.com and Nexxt with two X's. Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: I don't know why it took us so long, but believe it or not, Hung Lee, ladies and gentlemen is- Chad: Hung Lee! Joel: ... is finally a guest on the show. Chad: Yeah! Joel: Hung Lee, welcome man. Some of our listeners do not know you. Hung Lee: What? Joel: I'm going to quickly introduce you as the CEO of Workshape.io or as Chad likes to say, "Workshapio," and probably more well-known by our listeners for your curation of Recruiting Brainfood, the weekly email that goes out. Hung, welcome. Good to have you here. Hung Lee: Finally. Guys, let me just say it's a massive honor for me to attend this show. It feels like it's a milestone. And it's definitely on my calendar. It's something that I'm going to frame. This is a big moment for me. Thank you very much for having me. Chad: You can tell that he's a Brit, because he's saying all this stuff and you can hear behind he's like, "I can't wait to get over this fucking podcast for god's sake." Joel: Yeah, we have a bad habit of getting guests that sound way smarter than us. We need to ... Chad: Which is not hard. Joel: We need to downgrade our audience or our guests for sure. We couldn't downgrade our audience anymore. But our guests need to be taken down a notch or two. So Hung, what did we miss in the intro? What do we need to know about you that we don't already? Hung Lee: You know what? I'm so focused these days on doing those two projects. It's hard for me to fill in the gaps really. I mean maybe you guys are probably very familiar with it yourself when you do something media related you give so much out, it can be a bit consuming. So when people say, "What do you do in your spare time?" I'm thinking, "I have some fish. What else do I do? I like hanging out now and again if I see my friends." But yeah, it's an all-consuming thing to be one of these people that is trying to support the community and push the marble forward for one, you know? Chad: Yeah, but he's HR's most eligible bachelor. That's one of the things that he's leaving out there. Yes, he is working hard. Joel: And as we've determined before the show, with a name like Hung, if you don't bring it, there's going to be a lot of disappointment, so maybe there's a reason he's still single. Hung Lee: Can I just credit you guys? It's like two minutes, less than three minutes in and you already got that one in. So I just want to say well done. Chad: Joel has been waiting at least a year. When he first came out with that joke, he's like, "Holy shit." He's had that thing holstered, man. Joel: It took a long time to get our schedules to sync to have you on the show. So yes, I have been waiting for a while. Joel: Let's talk about Recruiting Brainfood for a second. Why did you do it? What's the process? You have advertisers. Just sort of give us the lay of the land and what you do with the Brainfood product. Hung Lee: So I mean the genesis of Recruiting Brainfood is really ... I mean I personally found it very difficult to find great content online. I mean there's a lot of stuff out there, a lot of quality content. But there's also so much that's trash. Chad: Junk, yeah. Hung Lee: That is was very difficult for me to really ... Where is the good stuff? Where is the consistent good stuff? And I just started collecting links as people do. You bookmark them. You put them into pockets or whatever it might be to consume it at a later date. And it just occurred to me, "You know what? If I started sharing this list to people, maybe other people can get piggyback off the work I'm doing and they can get some of the good stuff that way as well." So Brainfood really started off as a way for me to try and improve the signal to noise ratio if you like, using startup speak, and to make the internet a little smaller for myself. The internet got so big that it was unmanageable. So I wanted to try and shrink it down into a more manageable size. And that's what Recruitment Brainfood, that was the start of the newsletter. It's basically an attempt to make it smaller. Joel: So that sounds really warm and fuzzy. But there is certainly some interest where you're building your personal brand and you're also getting the Workshape.io product out there. That certainly had something to do with it, right? Hung Lee: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean there's another ... What I find is that most things that you do tend to have value in multiple areas, right? So when you do anything public, I wasn't unaware of the fact that, hey, listen, if it does turn into something then maybe this will be a nice in balance strategy for me in some way. We of course in Europe have the GDPR thing happening. Last year I think it was. And Brainfood started two years ago. So I had a little bit, a look around the corner in thinking maybe I need to really get consent from the people I'm emailing. And one of the ideas was, hey, if I was able to launch a newsletter then maybe I'll be able to email these folks without needing to bother too much or be too worried about the GDPR side of things. Hung Lee: So for sure there was multiple reasons for doing it, but primarily it was for personal consumption was the first thing. And all of those later things just started coming in as the newsletter got a big more popular. Chad: Well, then it started to snowball, right? And now you have a series of lists that you have available to the public as well. So talk a little bit about that. Joel: So how big is your list, Hung? Hung Lee: So I think Joel has this size thing going on, doesn't he? Joel: I have issues. Hung Lee: Yeah. That's okay. We can talk about that later. Chad: He's overcompensating as usual. Joel: Because size does matter when we're talking about email lists. Hung Lee: That's it. So the email list in terms of subscribers I think it's something like 10,600 or so right now. So not mega massive. I think lots of people are into the hundreds of thousands and so on. But I think we've got a good bunch of people who seem to be reading it, who seem to be very into the idea of the Brainfood. And yeah, they seem to be engaged. So that's growing and growing well, so I'm very happy with that. Chad: You have lists around conferences and other lists too, right, that you guys ... I mean it's like a crowdsourcing type of curation that's happening right now. That I mean has really grown and exploded lately as well, right? Hung Lee: You know one thing that I really learned value on is if you've got a network, you've got to put the network to use. I think a lot of people don't really ask for help in a public way. I mean today's a great example. I got an email from a subscriber who said ... who had a problem about, hey, listen, Hung. What are the things that employers are looking for when they're recruiting for a head of talent. She was going for a job there. And I twas thinking, "You know what? I could give this person advice, unqualified advice, I may add because I'm just one guy. I'm giving her one perspective." What she should have done and what I recommended her to do was to publicly ask for that information, get multiple inputs, multiple sources of opinion, which I think she's going to do. Hung Lee: So for me I default to asking a lot of people. I rarely ask one person for advice because that person's only going to give me their angle and even though I might respect them in terms of what they know, it's only going to be one narrow view of the world. But if I stick it out more broadly, then I'm going to get multiple perspectives. And then hopefully you'll be able to make a better decision as a result of that. Joel: So we talked about some of the positives for your business, but I'm sure taking time away from the startup is challenging as well. Talk about some of the things that ... the challenge that you have balancing Brainfood versus Workshape.io and how you kind of maneuver that obstacle course. Hung Lee: Yeah. I think realistically you have to change your business plan. You have to change acquisition strategy. You have to do all of those things when you try to ride both of these horses. So to put this into plain language, basically with Workshape one of the big things that costs time was obviously a customer acquisition. You've got a go in and sell to customers. You've got to go and pitch to them and demo and do all of those things. Labor intensive work which I found you could not do that with Brainfood running alongside. Hung Lee: So what I've done with Brainfood is basically always put a link back to Workshape so that as the audience on the newsletter grows, I'm actually getting in bound customers signing into the product and they're converting through that means. So the discovery of customers has changed. I had to change the pricing on it, so obviously I have to drop that down because I'm no longer doing the high touch sales but I'm hoping that that will compensate by higher volume and lower customer acquisition cost. Joel: Interesting. So let's talk about Workshape.io. A lot of people I think just know you for the Brainfood newsletter. Tell you about your start up. Hung Lee: So Workshape is basically a matching product that helps companies recruit software engineers. Our main idea behind this was that we felt that the problem in hiring tech people wasn't the discovery issue. People are getting easier to find these days. Lots of data out there. Lots of great tooling out there to help you identify the person. But the person has stopped listening to us, right? They don't want to talk to recruiters, especially if you're a technical person with a high demand skillset. The last person you want to interact with seems to be someone who's pitching you by email or whatever it might be. Hung Lee: So what we wanted to do with Workshape is basically to create an environment where engineers could discover a new job opportunities but be insulated from all of that over-recruitment messaging that they're getting from more public places. We knew that Linkedin was problematic for software people. We knew any place that really had an open database where you could search for candidates was going to be noisy for those guys. So we wanted to create a low noise, high signal environment for software engineers to conduct job discovery. Hung Lee: And basically what this means, guys, is there's no search and no ads on Workshape. It's a matching product. We basically take information about what the engineer wants. We visualize that in terms of time or the tasks which we then display as a work shape and we match that directly with an organization that has a compatible job. And the idea is if we're going to remove a lot of that ad and apply mechanic, hopefully we can just connect people together that should naturally have a conversation and then we as a platform will get out of the way and let those two folks have a conversation. Chad: So I watched a video that you put together. I mean it was a really short video and it was cool, because it showed just how easily somebody could come in, create their own work shape. Hung Lee: Sixty seconds, man. That was our target. We wanted to get someone through the flow in 60 seconds. Chad: That's awesome. Hung Lee: Yeah, an engineer's not going to spend time filling out forms, right? So one of the main things that's problematic when you're doing a matching product is the amount of information you collect is directly associated with how accurate your match can be. But then you have another problem because the more you ask for that information the less people are going to complete it, particularly if you're highly skilled, in demand. So what we wanted to do was really find a way in which we could get the engineer to give the information that we wanted which is how do you want to focus your time as a software engineer and do it in 60 seconds or less. And that's where the work shape idea came from. The idea of not doing it text based at all. We're kind of anti-text generally. We think that the description of what someone wants to do can be done visually with a kind of focused distribution. And yeah, that's one of the probably the best innovations of the product I would say. Chad: Let's take a look at, backing up a little bit, and the bigger picture, because you talk about matching ... This is a way cool way to actually match. It's really creating, as you call it and you named it work shape, against the actually work shape that company's looking for for a specific job. Now backing up and matching, who else is doing matching in a very interesting or cool way out in the industry today? Hung Lee: You know what? I think we're all trying to do ... There's a lot of companies trying to do this type of play. I think that most of them are trying to do it algorithmically in the sense of they're trying to pass a lot of text. So this is one thing that I think we did very well to avoid where you're trying to interpret what this person is meaning when they've put together these words on this resume. And then try and figure out whether that matches to a job description which again is a lot of text that you need to figure out what this person means. And this is why text-based matching services have generally never been successful because of course words are naturally ambiguous. If I say product manager to you, that may mean one thing to one company. It may mean something very different to another company. Chad: Well, I mean what you're saying really is job descriptions such. So and they're all text-based. So trying to work off of data that such, garbage in, garbage out. Is that what I'm getting? Hung Lee: That's exactly where it is. And it's not garbage, man, because we need ambiguity to have conversation. I mean if I knew everything about you 100% transparently, probably we would not be friends, Chad. Chad: Somebody's been looking at my Facebook profile or something. I don't know. Hung Lee: Yeah. I mean the reason why we have relationships is because we need a little bit of doubt to say, "Oh, maybe he didn't really mean that. I'll give this person a little bit of slack, because maybe my interpretation is wrong." And that ambiguity is the fluidity which gives society the ability to succeed. But when it comes to being, to matching people to opportunities, text is problematic because we're using text words in different ways. And for us one of our solutions was simply trying to dodge the words completely. We're not going to try to get smarter at NLP or whatever and have a huge teams of data scientists trying to figure out what people mean when they write in things. We're just going to say, "You know what? You've got your text-based document there. You keep it where it is. We're going to get you into our system and you're going to tell us with the focus distribution what it is you prefer to do. Here are the 10 things that are more or less universal software engineering activities. What would you prefer to do more of or less than?" And they simply with a drag and drop interface, they'd tell us that. And that gives us some quantified data which we can then accurately match to an employer that has designed a job along exactly the same parameters. Joel: As you know, last year Microsoft dropped a good chunk of change on GitHub. GitHub is kind of your sweet spot. What are your thoughts on GitHub, Linkedin, Microsoft, where that whole thing is going and how impactful will it be on the industry? Hung Lee: I think it's absolutely seismic. I mean Microsoft obviously want to own the workspace I think. And one of the things I'm very impressed by with Microsoft is the sort of recovery from a point where they were ... I wouldn't say they were never [inaudible 00:18:07] because they've always made a huge of money. But there was a period of time where they were kind of ... People stopped talking about Microsoft as being irrelevant as a shape of the future when all you were doing was using their documentation software, the OfficeSuite and what have you. But they've really understood I think that work is changing. And the purchases they've made I think are all about trying to position themselves to be the infrastructure provider for the future of work. Joel: So I'm predicting that they'll acquire Upwork this year. Will you agree or disagree with that prediction? Hung Lee: I'm not going to stake my sort of hat on it. But I think that would be a smart purchase. And I agree with you in terms of that's where they're going. They understand that the shape of the company will change which is why they're moving strategically away from the desktop. You look at Linkedin for instance, that's providing a social layer of data on top of the OfficeSuite. You're looking at Microsoft Azure. That's providing cloud services. Again, take it out of the company. It's sort of facility. You're looking at GitHub which is opensource collaboration across companies. They've even had attempts to buy ... Not attempts. They bought it. They just haven't executed properly. And there's stuff like Skype, Yammer, and those types of collaboration tools. And it's all about I think trying to understand, you know what? Human beings will work together in future. But they may not work together in the same company in the same way. And Microsoft want to be the player to be the organization that you have to interface with at least one of their products to get anything done. So yeah, I'm very impressed by what they're doing for sure. Chad: They haven't been able to really make some of those big acquisitions happen. What makes you think that they're going to be able to take these other big acquisitions and make them become fluid within kind of like a workspace ecosystem. Hung Lee: I think the leadership has a lot to do with it. Chad: The execution. Hung Lee: Yeah, well, the ... I mean this is not me to hammer down on Steve Ballmer and those type of folks. But Steve Ballmer basically was a sales guy. Joel: He still is. Hung Lee: Yeah. He wanted to hammer out sales, what was making money at the time. It was the OfficeSuite. That type of stuff. And he didn't really have the technical DNA I think to handle a rapidly changing environment. You want a sales guy CEO when you've got a mature market and the market's going to basically stay similar for a period of time, because then he can optimize your business and he can make you super efficient. But right now you've got Satya Nadella there. He's a tech guy. He's aggressively repositioned the business. And I think he is exactly the right sort of set of hands really on the wheel right now for this type of company. Chad: Let's do a hard pivot and then as we're talking about Microsoft and the leadership in I believe some amazing acquisitions. And I believe that the prospect of the acquisition of Upwork or what have you and then now let's look at Google, because they're doing business in an entirely different way just like Google does, right? As you see what they're doing with Cloud Talent Solution, with Google for Jobs, obviously the Hire by Google I think is what they're calling it now. The Hire by Google product. What do you see happening there from the standpoint ... because it seems much more elementary. I mean not that they're doing it wrong. But it seems much more elementary on the Google side than it does the Microsoft side. Am I missing something? Hung Lee: No, that's expected though. That's how they make products. I mean if you look at Google's most successful products, they were all little side products that different engineers decided, "Hey, listen. Let's go and do it." Gmail was probably one of their main products that are widely used. That was definitely emerged out of a hack bot. So I think now Google Hire by Google emerged from that as well. So this is how Google does product development. And I think that they'll test it as a startup and then they're obviously not a startup they're DNA is still startup I think. They'll test it in terms of what the users do. And then they'll double down if it works. Joel: What are your thoughts on Google for Jobs initiative? Hung Lee: Well, I think because Google controls sort of the access to the internet to a large degree it's going to have a huge impact on how we advertise jobs. It's a clean shot at Indeed. It's pretty clear that ... Let's pull back just a little bit. But if you think that Google's original mission was to organize the world's information and make it the one-stop shop where you would find what you were looking for, you'd recognize that of the last five years or so that stopped happening. You've found many aggregators doing what Google did because Google didn't do it anymore. Example, Indeed for jobs. You would not go on Google and start searching for jobs necessarily because you'd know that Indeed actually had a much better, a much more organized inventory there. You're looking at booking a flight. You don't go on Google necessarily. You go on something like Skyscanner or a product like that. Again another aggregator that focus on an industry and basically said, "We're going to deliver you more accurate information than Google can." And there's all kinds of examples where that's occurred. Hung Lee: So I think what Google has done with Google for Jobs and Indeed with their new travel service and all the rest of it is really think, "Okay. We need to take back some of this mind share about us being the one place that is the start and finish of discovery." And I think they've looked at Indeed and thought, "Right, we're going to try and kill them." And that's what Google for Jobs is. Joel: So this is a great segue. So let's talk about Indeed and their sort of place in this new world. And I'll throw in ZipRecruiter if you want to talk about sort of what I think is satire of what the big boys in the job search space. Where do they fall into this new era? Hung Lee: Firstly I love Indeed because they're one of the most aggressive companies I've ever seen, right? Chad: If you say aggressive equals assholes, then yes, I agree 100%. Hung Lee: No, no. They weren't assholes. They're actually very nice people. And- Chad: Have you seen some of these policies they've rolled out and how they're crunching the market? I mean yeah, is it bad business, we'll find out, right? Are they making a shit ton of cash? Yeah, they're making a shit ton of cash. But is this short term, longterm, man, I don't know, man. I just don't ... I believe relationships build things and these guys aren't building relationships. Hung Lee: No, but Chad there's no rule book when it comes to business, man. It's not about playing nice. And Indeed came in with an offering. And the job boards, it was very clear I think really from the beginning that Indeed at one point was going to kill them. Chad: They didn't see it though. That was the fun part. Hung Lee: I think they were in willful denial, because they saw the short term traffic. They got the big dopamine hit from all of that and they weren't able to do anything about it. So basically I've no problem with Indeed's aggressive, some might say, anti-competitive policies. I think that's how you run the business so you make the money they have. They've also doubled down I think with a lot of purchasing themselves these days, buying interesting bits of software. They've hired a lot of ... Joel: Glassdoor. Hung Lee: Yeah, they've hired a lot of people as well to work on their own internal products. And in fact in the last 12 months or so they've just been rolling out new innovative products into recruiting marketplace almost every month it seems. So I think they're really looking for what's going to happen if Google for Jobs does succeed in becoming, retaking the spot as the aggregator for job discovery. But I think Indeed will do it. They'll find a way to do it. Whether they stay as an aggregated type of business, I don't know. Whether they move into more of a potentially as an ATS type product, why not? Chad: Do you see that more as an acquisition versus build? Do you think they actually have time to build what they need to get away from the big business of ... And also the dopamine that they're hitting themselves with every day versus that next level pivot? Hung Lee: Okay. I'm going to give you an answer that you as a podcast hosts don't like. But the answer is I don't know. The answer is I don't know. I really don't know how they would do it. But I think they will because they've got ... Again you look at the DNA of the business. They spotted an opportunity that no one else saw. But they went ahead and did it in about 10 years. Ridiculous how quickly they became the sizes that they are. And right now they're diversifying with lots of different product developments. Joel: What are your thoughts on the Glassdoor acquisition? Hung Lee: So I've got a problem generally with review sites. And this is not specific to Glassdoor. It's just that I don't believe that you can trust the data, right? In the sense that we are in the fake news era, folks. We understand that people say things that aren't true. So when you have the review site that's anonymized, that people are given rankings and all the rest of it, I feel a little bit uncomfortable with it because I do wonder whether who appears top may not be necessarily right. It's simply the organization that's managed to gain that system a little bit to get there. And you're saying quite profound things into the market to say, "You know what? That's ranked number one. And that's ranked number 50." When in fact it's that natural justice, so to speak, but hey, Glassdoor themselves have been great as a business because they've managed to parlay the review concept into a major business and a major player in recruitment space. Hung Lee: I don't really have a strong opinion what it means for them to be part of a bigger company to be honest to you. But yeah, like I say, I'm not sure review sites ... Whenever I see someone trying to pitch me a review site or say, "Hey, what you think of this," I have to say I'm against it. I think it's potentially libelous. And not a great way for the buyer to do due diligence I would say. Chad: Yeah. And we are in the era of data and anonymized data. GDPR are making sure that everything is transparent, making sure that the user can control their own data on the candidate side. I mean how's that going to happen on the review side? Anyway I totally get where you're coming from what about Zip? So we threw Zip in there. Where do you think their line is versus kind of like the rest of the field, because they're doing business differently. Don't you think? Hung Lee: Yeah, I mean they've really been an up and coming ... I think Zip have actually been one of the sponsors of Brainfood recently as well. So yeah, they're a really interesting- Chad: Sons of bitches! Hung Lee: Does that mean I can't say things about them? Chad: Oh, no, go ahead, please. Go ahead. That's awesome. Hung Lee: But again the ad space is super interesting because it's obviously still a place where companies spend most of their money. It's quite amazing that that's the case, right? Because the rhetoric at the operational level is, oh, we don't advertise the jobs. We do all of this innovative stuff and et cetera, et cetera. Chad: Matching. Hung Lee: Well, they do matching. They do direct sourcing. They do all kinds of amazing wiz bang stuff. Chad: But I mean they've hired a shit ton of developers to do R&D and pretty much in Israel a good amount of it's around the matching piece, the AI trying to understand what the hell, just like we're talking about earlier on the text side of that house, what does that resume mean against this requisition? Hung Lee: And a company like Zip and in fact all of these aggregated type of businesses do have just an enormous dataset from which they should be able to develop a much more efficient algorithms to do that matching. So it really depends on how deep they can pull that information out. I mean again in Europe you're going to have all kinds of consent issues you've got to worry about and all those types of things. So I think what might be the case is that you'll end up having very different technology products in different legislative environments and they'll emerge and they may in fact be quite separate. So in the US for instance you might see these matching products that are based on non-consent driven data collection. But I don't think you can make that product in Europe anymore. And you can't sell that product in Europe any more. So Europe will do something else and it will service its market in a different way. And we're kind of moving now towards they call it the splinternet, the idea that ... Have you heard of this term? Joel: No. Hung Lee: Okay. The splinternet, it's splintering. It's no longer a case where we can think of a global, a unified system where you'll have these titanic organizations that just go smoothly across all of these countries. But in fact you'll start getting loyal players will be maybe as big as you're going to get, because it's going to be local laws to say, "Hey, listen. You can't do that here. Or if you do do it from elsewhere, you can't sell it here." And that even goes all the way to the top. Chad: We're at HireConf late last year, and I mean just because of GDPR I mean they killed 29 million profiles. Joel: HiringSolved. HireConf, the conference for HiringSolved. Yes. Chad: That's it, my bad. Hung Lee: No doubt. It's difficult because as an individual I've got one view of it and obviously as a vendor and as someone who thinks data is obviously important, I've got another view of it. So I'm very conflicted about where all of this lies. What is important to realize I think is on the spectrum of who cares about data, these probably going to be three major players in terms of where the legislature boundaries are. On the one side you're going to have ... On the one extreme you're going to have the EU which is going to be super protective of the consumer rights and super protective of data privacy. On the other extreme you've got China who literally don't give a fuck. They're just going to take every single thing by default they're going to have your information. And then in the middle, you're going to have the US which probably has a sort of a looser idea behind it. They're going to try and do the right thing, but hey, listen, we're running a business. You'll probably find different products in different technology companies emerging from those three sides and they won't be able to sell to each other. Joel: So if the internet is splintering and we're sort of seeing these, I don't know, little fiefdoms per country, do you think that recruiting is on a similar track? Is a recruiter in the US going to be vastly different than a recruiter in the UK or Germany and will they use different services and different skillsets? What do you see with that? Hung Lee: Yeah, it already is, Joel. And I think that that's simply going to be exacerbated by the drift of these technology ecosystems. I mean I had a friend of mine, I'm meeting them later tonight actually. These guys I wouldn't ... They're high volume email messages, right? So I wouldn't call them spammers per say. But I think they're good dudes that know how to send a good email. But they said, "Hey, listen. We stopped doing that in Germany because every time we do that we get a response not from the person we send it to. We get a response from their legal team. Right?" Chad: It's a new day my friend. It is a new day. Hung Lee: And they said another thing. They said, "Hey, listen. We also stopped doing it in the Netherlands because we don't get the response from the legal team, but we get the response from the person we emailed, but they're very irate and we have to spend the next half hour explaining why we're going to delete their data and never ever email them again. But we do send it to the UK guys, because you know what? You guys are okay dealing with spam." Hung Lee: So I think that was kind a very local example of, "Okay, you're going to have to have really localized strategies to do business and localized strategies to do recruiting." But I think that's always been the case, right? I mean you can't ... It's not the same dog that we're trying to ... Dog that you skin? You don't skin dogs. You skin cats. What I'm trying to ... Chad: I don't know that I'd skin any of them. So when you take a look at the landscape just in the UK, let's just say your side of the pond. What startups out there are really interesting to you? Hung Lee: I think that we have had a wave of innovation that is now starting to go mainstream. And actually the most interesting thing for me is not necessarily the new shiny toys, but actually which toys are getting implemented. And one thing I think is is definitely happening is gone into the mainstream already is the deployment of chatbots into corporate businesses. I'd be very surprised if by the end of this year, companies haven't employed something of this type and already using it. I think this type of technology where you're trying to change one of the very persistent problems in recruiting which is this information gap that candidates have. Chatbots have proven I think the business case that this is the technology you should be using and that to deal with that particular problem. And then you're going to see that adoption I think will radically change how companies think about things like candidate experience and onboarding and all those types of things. Chad: So do you think a lot of that has to do with really process though? Because I mean chatbots can help really candidates. They can help recruiters. And they can be a part of like kind of almost like RPA to an extent, right? Hung Lee: Right. Chad: I mean that's really I would say baseline. You're looking at RPA. And then there might be some learning in there, what have you. Do you think it's because chatbots are easier to understand when you break it down to the process and say, "Look, from all these different tasks that you're currently doing, this technology, this chatbot, quote unquote chatbot, will actually take all that away and you won't have to deal with it unless somebody wants to talk to an actual human being." Hung Lee: Yeah, I mean ultimately I'm a big fan of single use products anyway, man. I think the idea of having a single system does everything for you has always been kind of a fool's vision of innovation and a lazy person's vision of innovation really. It's like some robot butler's going to take care of your life. That doesn't happen. Chad: Joel is waiting for that right now. Joel: Right after the sex robots. Hung Lee: I'm not even going to comment on that. The sort of what I see as practical as basically single use tools that can help you get faster at one thing that you have to do. And what chatbots I think can definitely do is do things like candidate updates and respond 24 by 7 and not leave the candidate when they're asking for questions that are easily answered by ... because the information is, what's the word, objective, right? So you're not making judgment calls necessarily and getting that to data out there. So I guess the ... Hung Lee: One of the really interesting things is that we thought initially that individuals might want to speak to a human being over a chatbot. But the evidence increasingly suggests that's not the case and in fact it's the opposite, that people would prefer to deal with a chatbot in the first instance, particularly when they're just about discovering the job or discovering that company. Because you're just in information collection mode there, and you just need factual information right here and now. How much are you paying? Can you sponsor a visa? Do you need a degree for me to apply? All of that information can be provided because it's objective. No bot is making a judgment call there. And as a candidate, I can absolutely understand why I would like to extract that information through a bot rather than a human being simply because it's more efficient. Like I don't have to invest any social capital to get that information. Joel: So let's talk about automation for a little bit and maybe the future of sourcing because I think a lot of the things automation brings are supportive of the end of sourcing or many parts of sourcing. Chad and I talk a lot about HiQ's legal battle with Linkedin and GDPR. I mean at some point the trend seems to be that the people are going to win and that their data is going to be protected and that sort of thing. So what does sourcing look like in five years? What are sort of your thoughts on the death of sourcing? Hung Lee: I think it's going to die, yeah. I think if you studied the history of sourcing. It started off as being a subset of recruiting, right? Everyone did a bit of sourcing. But you also did client relationship management. You did BD. You did admin. You did all of that stuff. But then when the social web started to emerge and all of this data started to explode around us, you started to get figures that called themselves sourcers and not recruiters whose primary activity was basically to go into the internet and extra human capital information as a specialist skill. And typically they might hand that information off to someone else who would do the out ... or they would be kind of providing a list building type service to say, "Hey, listen. I've just mapped the candidate, the candidate landscape that you're looking for. Here are the people you need to speak to." So sourcing kind of split from recruitment, but I think it needs to now go back into recruitment. Chad: Do you see it happening in a market like this though? I mean I think these types of markets, so in the US I mean we're under 4% unemployment. So one of the reasons why that happens is because it is so hard to find individuals in the first place. You have to really double down and really have a team that's focused on something like that. But when the market flips, then you can kind of go back to how you did business before. Do you think the market really chooses what happens? Or do you just think it was just a natural evolution because humans are lazy as shit? Hung Lee: Well, I don't know if humans are lazy. But I think efficiency's another word for laziness, right? Like we want to do more with less. That's the nature of what we are as a species. And it's what we are as a business as well. So I think when I say sourcing dead, of course, it isn't. But is it going to be the most important skill that a recruiter has? I think probably not going forward. If you think of what the primary skills of what the sourcer has, it is a person that is able to interact with an inefficient system to pull out information from it. Joel: And on that note, Hung, thanks for joining us today. For those who want to connect with you or learn more, where should they go? Hung Lee: So I'm kind of, probably Twitter's a good place or @HungLee would be a good place to do some messaging to me if you want to do that. Linkedin I think I'm maxed out on connections, so no longer the right place to do. Sign up for the newsletter. You know recruitingbrainfood.com. I email out every day, sort of every week should I say. And I'm on it as an email. So if you want to get in touch with me that way, you can do it through that channel as well. Chad: Since we didn't have you on in 2018, we need to double up in 2019. So here in a few months, maybe six months or so, I think we should start to reach out to listeners and ask them what they want to know from Hung Lee. So we're going to get stupid Joel and Chad questions. Joel: Screw the listeners. Hey, we're going to be in London this year, Hung. Hopefully, you're there as well and we can have a pint or two and really do it right. Hung Lee: When are you guys in town so I can make sure I'm not here? Joel: July. Chad: RecFest Hung Lee: RecFest? Unfortunately I am here because I'm hosting one of the stages. So yeah, I'd love to see you guys and it'd be great to have a pint with you for sure. Chad: Excellent. Joel: Awesome. Maybe a little live podcast is in the future. Chad: Oh, that could be it. Hung Lee: Great idea, man. Great idea. Joel: Chad, I'm out. We out. Hung Lee: See you later. Chad: Okay. Okay. Okay. Before we go, remember when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing? Joel: Yeah. You know all about reflexes. And then I brilliantly tied it to text messages, 97% open rate. Then I elegantly, elegantly tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh, Chad. I can be elegant, can't I? Chad: Whatever, man. I know it's redundant. You already heard about Text to Hire, but you're still not using Text to Hire from Nexxt. Joel: What? Chad: I know, man. Joel: Come on, man. Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again, this was all by elegant design. It's all about Text to Hire and it's all about Nexxt. Joel: And elegant design. So go to chadcheese.com, click on the Nexxt logo and get 25, yeah, I said 25% off your first Text to Hire campaign. Engage better, use Text to Hire from Nexxt, two X's. Chad: Boo yah. Announcer: Thanks to our partners at TAtech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Remember to visit tatech.org. Ema: Hi, I'm Ema. Thanks for listening to my dad, the Chad, and his buddy Cheese. This has been the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss a single show. Be sure to check out our sponsors because their money goes to my college fund. For more visit chadcheese.com. #HungLee #Brainfood #Indeed #ZipRecruiter #RecFest #Nexxt #WorkShapeio #Matching

This episode is NSFW... So ut the kids away for this one and cozy up with that fire. The boys are discussing: - Slack's new Penis Swastika logo - Accenture screws over CBP and taxpayers - Ladders sucks at innovation - Glassdoor expands to New Zealand, Singapore and Hong Kong - Gillette's new toxic masculinity ad campaign - China's military problem: masturbation and video games Your eardrums are going to need a thorough cleaning. Enjoy, and give our sponsors some love: Sovren, Canvas and JobAdX. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast, Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's on for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: This episode is definitely not safe for work. Let's get that out of the way right now. Welcome to the weekly episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous duo. I'm Joel Cheesman. Chad: And I'm Chad not safe for work Sowash. Joel: On this week's show, Ladders, the artist formerly known as The Ladders, takes innovation down to the bottom rung, Gillette shows off its softer side, and swastika penises. Chad: What? Joel: Yeah. You heard that right. You'll need to stay tuned to find out exactly what the hell we're talking about, but first, a word from our advertiser Sovren. Sovren: Sovren is the most sophisticated matching engine on the market because it acts just like a human. You decide exactly how our AI matching engine thinks about each individual transaction. It will find, rank, and sort the best matches according to your criteria. Sovren: Not only does it deliver the best matches, it tells you how and why it produced them, and offers tips to improve the results. Our engine thinks like you, so you don't have to learn how to think like the engine. Sovren: To learn more about Sovren AI matching, visit Sovren.com. That's S-O-V-R-E-N.com. Joel: Boom. Yeah. It's about to get real up in this piece. Let's go to shout outs. Chad: There it is. Michael B. Clegg. Joel: Michael B. Shore Clegg, friend of Al B. Sure, I'm sure. Damn. See, I'm so fired up I'm jumping the gun. Chad: Uh huh. Joel: All right. Michael Clegg, longtime vet, stumbled upon the show, loves it. Michael, this shout out's for you. Chad: Yes. Shout out for you. He actually tweeted back to us as we said thanks for listening. He's like, "Hey, dude. I meant that I love your show." Someone that's been in the industry for 20 years, like he has, he's now a business owner. He needs this type of content more than ever. Then, he actually said, "We dumped CareerBuilder last year." Chad: So, I don't know that it was us who was responsible for him dumping CareerBuilder, if it was just CareerBuilder's antics and shit that they did, but thanks for listening, Michael. We really appreciate it. Joel: Pretty sure if CareerBuilder was working for them they wouldn't dump them because of idiots like us with a podcast. All right. I'm going to to Ryan Gill, then Chad: There it is. Joel: I don't know even what to say. Dude has mad video interviewing skills. He's got a guy with a camera who's got mad skills. Chad: Dabs. Yeah. Joel: Anyway, I don't know. You and I did a video interview with Ryan talking about a variety of things, from starting companies and podcasts and success and kids and sex, and who knows what else we talked about. Chad: Yep. Joel: If you haven't checked that out, do a beeline to at least one of our social medias and check that out. Did he post it somewhere on their site? Chad: Yeah. Well, they posted it on social media. It's called Linked Up. I don't know if it's weekly, but they do a ton of content, which is awesome. Chad: I have to say this, it is a cinematic experience that everybody needs to see. These guys really pull together good video. Ryan's the founder of the gathering which we're actually going to go to here at ... In a few weeks in Banff, and also the CEO and founder of a new talent marketplace called Communo. Joel: You know it's pronounced Branff, right? All right. Shout out to a Tengai. Did I pronounce that right for you? Chad: Good job. Joel: Tengai, and it's Elin not Ellen. Tengai unbiased video. Another video if you haven't seen this. They are coming to Death Match in Lisbon this year. They have this creepy-ass robot that I refer to as a cross between a Barbie hairstyle bus thingy. Chad: Yes. Yep. Joel: And the I-Robot robots from the Will Smith movie. Chad: Yes. Joel: Anyway, they're going to come. They did a video of the robot trash talking us, and it's fantastic. Chad: Dude, it's awesome. TNG and their unbiased robot recruiter, they call, they named Tengai, yeah, it's definitely creepy. They created this acceptance video, which is fucking hilarious. Reposted it on Linkedin. Chad: If you're not following The Chad & Cheese Facebook page, go follow that. It's on there. Also, Ryan's video's on there. Go and check it out. It is freaking hilarious. Joel: I'm starting to get the sense that as more video gets produced we need to just embed this on the site and send people to the site to see these videos. Chad: Yeah, that's probably a good idea. When I find some time I'll see if I can get that done. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Roll the dice, come to ChadCheese.com, and see if these videos are up on the site. Chad: Something like that. Joel: Shout out to [Roy Mower 00:05:17], our buddy at SHRM. Chad: Yeah, Roy. Joel: He wrote a story on recruiting ethics and asked us for our ... Thought we should cover it. My thought was, "Us give criticism or insight on ethics? How about how to be a asshole podcaster? We'll give opinion on that, but ethics for recruiting? I don't know. Go to Steve Levy for that." Chad: We might pull a recruiter on maybe and interview them around that and give them shit around it, and that's how we podcast, but I don't know if we should actually be doing the story on that. That's awesome. Joel: Vendor ethics, maybe. Chad: Oh, that's a good call, yeah. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Audra Knight and Katrina Collier, thank you so much for having me on The Social Recruiting Show. Joel: Did they have a head injury or something? Maybe have some bad pizza? Chad: They called this the 2019 bitch fest, so they thought I might be able to add into the bitch session, I guess, so who knows. I guess we'll check it out. Joel: Well, if anyone's a little bitch that can bitch, it's you, bitch. Shout out for me to Jobiak, right? Chad: Ya. Joel: The site we've had on for Firing Squad. They put your jobs on Google for jobs. Anyway, they reached out to me for a quote about where recruiting was going to go in 2019. I gave them a quote. Joel: They put me in this thing called 20 Recruiting Experts, or 20 Experts Giving Their Insight into 2019. Double shout out for not including you in the top 20 experts, because they know what they're talking about. Chad: Yeah. No. They just know that you're a sucker and hat was easy to be able to say, "Hey, we want you to share our shit." You got Cheesman. He's a sucker. Good job. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Sugarcoat it however you want, Sowash. Chad: Big shout out to Michael Strahan for pulling together a lobster dinner for the NCAA national champs, Clemson, since they had to eat burgers and chicken nuggets and shit at the White House. Joel: Yeah. More on that later in the show, but, yeah, Strahan stepped up and bought lobster dinners for them, I guess. Chad: Yep. Joel: A nice PR for him as well doing that. Chad: Very much, very much. Joel: I'm surprised. How did Ruth's Chris or Morton's or somebody not come out and be like, "Oh, we'll do dinner?" Why no restaurant took advantage of that? Chad: Dude, I guarantee you they had no fucking clue. He likes what he likes, and he likes fast food. He's like, "Fuck it. That's what I'm going to eat, that's what they're going to eat." There was no invitation out. Joel: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying why didn't every nice restaurant in the country see that he bought them burgers and say ... Chad: Ah, I see. Afterward, yeah. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Gotcha. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Why didn't Ruth's Chris come out and say, "Hey, we'll invite the Clemson Tigers down to wherever and feed them a nice Ruth's Chris steak dinner?" Nobody jumped on that. I was kind of surprised. Chad: Probably because they'll take the sanctions they just dropped on Russia and then put them on Ruth's Chris. That's why. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: Anyway ... Joel: They're all employing immigrant workers that will all be put on furlough, or something. Jesus. Chad: Shout out to Monster for their new ads. I think they're still the 15 second versions. They are fucking hilarious. I don't know if you've seen these or not. Have you seen these? Joel: Yeah. It's the basic same premise, like I'm going to get a job, no you're not, and then they're gone basically getting a job really fast. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: It's all mobile, which is good. Chad: The copy's the same for every single experience, right? You've got a coder that's working right next to another coder. He's like, "Yeah, I found a job on Monster. I won't be here long." Guy's like, "Yeah, right." Looks back over and it's an entirely different person. Joel: Yep. Chad: Then you take it into an entirely different workspace. It's the exact same copy over and over and over in these different situations. It's fucking genius. Joel: Chad likes comedy where he doesn't have to think too much. Chad: Everybody does. Joel: Yeah, I guess so. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Seinfeld. I'm done with shout outs. You done with shout outs? Chad: Couple more I'm going to throw in [crosstalk 00:09:16]. Chad: Just opened ticket sales, so you definitely want to go to RecFest in London. Don't know. We might be there. TATech. Shit. We're going to be all over the place. We're going to be [crosstalk 00:09:27]. Joel: Yeah, we are. Chad: [crosstalk 00:09:28] in Europe, and not to mention we're going to do a couple of TA Tech's here. One in Chicago for recruitment marketing, so all you recruitment marketers out there think about that one, and then Austin later this year for the big show for TATech. Check those out. Go to TATech.org, go to RecFest, and buy some fucking tickets. Joel: The world is going to get very sick of us this year undoubtedly. Chad: Sick of you [crosstalk 00:09:51]. Joel: [crosstalk 00:09:51]. Yeah. Okay. I love how RecFest tickets now available, like they're selling Woodstock or tickets to The Who like it's a big ... Chad: Dude, it is a big fucking field right outside of London. It's supposed to be like a Lollapalooza kind of event. They start ... Even the bar's going to open at noon. It's going to be fucking crazy. I can't wait, man. Joel: It's the Coachella of recruiting. That should be their little mantra. Chad: Are we ready? Joel: All right. Can we get to the damn show already? Chad: Okay. Joel: All right. Ladders. The artist formerly known as Ladders. By the way, don't go to Ladders.com because you'll actually go to a site about ladders. Chad: Makes sense. Joel: Even though they've changed their name, the URL doesn't work that way. You still have to go to The Ladders. Chad: Yeah. From a marketing standpoint does that make any fucking sense? Why do I change my name to Ladders if my domain is The Ladders, knowing that people are going to search on Ladders and find ladders companies? Joel: Well, Facebook used to be The Facebook and then they actually went out and bought Facebook.com to just be Facebook dot ... Just be Facebook. Chad: Yeah. Right. Joel: Now, if Facebook went to the Harvard students' directory we'd say that's the dumbest move in marketing history. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Ladders is no different. It's not as obviously big or influential as Facebook, but, yes. If you're going to change your name, go to the ladder guy who's got the URL and offer him some money, because you're so successful that you can actually own Ladders.com. Chad: Okay. I digress. Joel: There's a high price for ladders eCommerce, apparently. Chad: Yeah, I'm sure. Joel: Anyway, Ladders comes out with a press release this week. I get a lot of press releases and this one really stood out. Sometimes spammers will sort of regurgitate press releases from days gone by. I thought, "An announcement about [pay per click 00:11:51], maybe I missed that." Okay? Joel: They announced that they're adding a pay per click solution to their job site. I go to the site and I'm like, "Maybe the date is from 2008, maybe I just missed this." No. It's a new announcement. Okay? Chad: For pay per click? Joel: For pay per click. Okay. From the release, this is a quote, "With cost per click Ladders continues to innovate to provide high-level talent acquisition in recruiting professionals with the right tools that attract the best and most active candidates." Is PPC innovation? Discuss. Chad: No. There's no discussion behind it. I can't believe that they actually put together a press release. Joel: Yeah, like an agency and everything. Chad: Oh, so they had an agency. This wasn't just some intern that they said, "Hey, write something up about pay per click. We're going to put this shit out to see to see if it catches anybody." Joel: Yeah. This is a tweet. This is like a, hey, head's up, we should've done this 10 years ago, but we're doing it now. We got pay per click. Thanks. No. Their agency got behind it, press release, everything, so it was a big deal. Joel: Then I thought, "Well, maybe they're innovating in other ways," right? Given fresh eye. So, I go to the site. They have advertising options, so their advertising options are basically email blasts, sponsored posts, and everyone's favorite, banner ads. Remember leader boards and skyscrapers? Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: They still got those at the Ladders. Nothing about AI, big data, [crosstalk 00:13:26], programmatic advertising. Chad: Oh my god. Joel: This was a really hilarious post for me to write and a news report that really, really made me laugh. Maybe we're missing something. Maybe we're not being fair, so let's just put it out there. Ladders, if you want to come on the show, tell us how you're innovating, tell us how you're kicking ass and taking names, you're more than welcome to come on and talk to us. Chad: We'd love to have you, as a matter of fact. There's something beyond this press release. It probably should've been on the fucking press release, but if there is some insights beyond the press release we'd love to be able to hear it because that shit does not sound innovative at all in 2019. 2006, I could give you that, but today? Not even close. Joel: Yeah. You and I, we had a good time reviewing the site for the show today. Things like there is no do it yourself job posting eCommerce functionality. Chad: Yeah. Joel: You can't just go on and post a job, which we're going back to the 90s for that kind of stuff. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: You actually have to put in your email and have someone contact you, which I'm sure is a nice little funnel for leads for them, but, anyway, yeah, the site doesn't scream innovation. If we're missing something, let us know, but otherwise this is just 2007 back to the future, making money the old way job site. Chad: In the meantime, quit putting out stupid fucking press releases. Joel: Yeah. The money that you're giving to your agency, hire some developers and make some real stuff. When you make some real stuff, people like us will talk about it and go, "Hey, that's pretty cool." Chad: Yeah. You know what I would think is pretty cool? Joel: Go check out the Ladders. Chad: I think it would be pretty cool if ... Tell us how you go through the matching process of, or the courting process or being able to help from a negotiation standpoint, navigation, give us something new. This is old shit, right? Joel: Sure. The business model is challenged. Let's be honest. When Ladders came out in 2003, whatever it was, if you put on 100K job every Tom, Dick and idiot applied to it. There weren't filtering functions, there was no way to pre-screen people and filter those folks out. Chad: Well, you had to subscribe. Remember that, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: That was the only filtering that you had is if you wanted to have a 100K job and above you had to subscribe. Joel: Pay to play. Chad: You had to pay to actually gain access to those jobs, which, to be quite frank, you could find them anywhere else on the web. Joel: Yep. Chad: It just made people feel special. You go in, you pay your little thing, and then, yeah, you're right, you can just hammer the shit out of anybody who's in the database. Joel: Sure. 2008 happened and every job site went to hell for a while. In that meantime, profiles started getting put on websites like Linkedin. Everyone had information, and Github happened. Joel: Now, if you need a high-level executive making six figures, my guess is most companies are going straight to the source and going to Linkedin or wherever. They're not probably even posting a lot of these jobs. Chad: No. Joel: To me, I don't even know how the business model works today with everything that has changed since when they first launched. Chad: Yeah. You don't have to post those jobs. That's the big key, right? Joel: Yeah, and if you do it's programmatic. The machines do it and find out where the best sources are. You can screen these folks and you can chat bot them up and find out if they're really qualified. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Chad: You let executive search take care of that shit. Joel: Or there's that. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. That's expensive, but, yeah, you could do that. Chad: Yeah. Well, it's expensive to get someone who's good and vetted, right? Joel: Quality ain't cheap, Chad. Chad: No. Exactly. Joel: But, bad, bad podcasters are a dime a dozen. Chad: We're everywhere. Joel: Exactly. Chad: What about- Joel: Well, I've said all I want to say about the Ladders. Chad: Okay, well, what about good advertising campaigns as we flow and segue into the next one? Joel: Okay. Well, we can debate whether this is a good ad strategy. You paint the picture. You're a big fan of this ad. You like it. Some people haven't seen it, I'm sure, particularly people overseas. Gillette, who historically has been a very machismo product, Gillette, the best a man can get. It's power suits and chiseled jaws in the shower. Chad: Yep. Joel: This is what we're used to. They did a 180 on their latest ad campaign. Chad: Yeah. It's still behind the best a man can get, right? It just revitalized for 2019. The internet just lit up. People really ... Okay, so, men, really, they're going apeshit because this ad broaches toxic masculinity. Chad: The ad in itself really it goes through mansplaining, bullying, dads saying the boys will be boys making everything all right, catcalling, aggressive types of behavior toward women. Then, it actually shows, which is interesting, Terry Tate, I can't remember his real name, but [Terry Tate 00:18:45] the actor who is testifying in Congress, saying that men need to hold other men accountable. Chad: Then, the commercial shifts gears. Buddies and dads step into role models and show that that behavior isn't acceptable. The boys watching today will be the men of tomorrow. That was one of the big kind of role model lines in the ad. Chad: From my standpoint I thought it was gold, especially that after Gillette did the Shakeem Griffin ad, the dude who has a disability, doesn't have one of his hands. He made it into the NFL, and telling that story. They're really getting behind storytelling and trying to change what their brand looks like. Joel: I'm totally for the message and the movement that's happening in our world. Chad: Yeah, me too. Joel: Because we're the same age, you'll remember some of this stuff. A lot of it isn't new. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I remember growing up being told it's okay to cry. I remember growing up, and this is the 70s. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Turning the other cheek, right? There was actually a Kenny Rogers song about turning the other cheek and looking the other way, right? The message to me ... I think ... I don't want to say it's recycled and it's refurbished for a new era, but men being sensitive is not a new thing, at least from my memory growing up and this thing. Joel: Now, where it's new is is when companies that are historically macho and they've built their brand on that men masculinity, that they're changing their brand. While I agree with the message, I'm really skeptical as to the brand pivot for Gillette. Chad: Yeah. Joel: To go from man's man, macho, power suits, hot women rubbing your cheeks, going from that to what they've gone to it's just a real risk with brand. For me, the bigger thing that ... The bigger problem they have is the trend of beards, as well as Dollar Shave Club. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Because I have to imagine those two things are a bigger blow to their business. I would've preferred from a marketing standpoint to try to tackle those issues than make a political statement. Chad: Yeah. I think you're really shortsighted on this issue because I don't think that this ad was only focused on men. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Gillette also makes products for women, right? Yeah, they do, so therefore if you take a look at ... Joel: No clue. Chad: Well, I have a wife, and she shaves, so I kind of know these things. Joel: Let's assume Gillette makes women products. Okay, gotcha. Chad: No, they do. It's pretty simple. This is not just an ad that is focused on one segment just being men. Yes, it is speaking to men, but it's speaking to everybody. All those people could perspectively buy their products. Chad: I did have somebody on Facebook actually say, "Great message, wrong messenger. Gillette is just doing this to look good." It's like, yeah, no shit. That's what advertising and marketing and PR is about, right? Chad: I think when it comes down to the brand, not just from buying something but also working there, so we also talk about employer branding, and wanting to be able to go to a company that's ... Really represents your values, right? It's not just about the product, it's about working for a company as well. Chad: Being able to set this brand up overall I think is incredibly smart and real business. I understand that we're all in talent acquisition, HR, or whatever, but are we so divorced from real business that we can't understand the actual basics of brand? Because that's what this is. Chad: Now, here's the problem, right? If Gillette is not focusing on equity then there's a serious problem. If their ranks and their positions are not flushed with equity with women, people of color, if the pay scale is not equitable, yeah, there's a huge problem. Chad: That could actually create damage for that brand, but for everybody to be able to see a message like this, not just men, but everybody, I think it's awesome for their brand. Not just their product brand, but also their employer brand. Joel: I certainly agree that for ... They're going to sell a lot more women's products because of the message, and I agree that from a recruiting standpoint this is going to open up a whole new sort of awareness of the company through a much broader spectrum of candidates. I think you've turned me on that. I think time will tell in terms of the numbers of what this does. Chad: Okay. Joel: They're probably letting their ... They're ignoring their position of being the masculine product. Someone will probably come along and try to take that from them and hold that brand, because there is some value in that, right? There is. Men are still men. Chad: They are. Joel: [crosstalk 00:24:05]. Chad: I don't think that they're saying that men aren't. I think what they're trying to say is that we have a responsibility as men. Boys will be boys, right? We don't treat each other like that. Chad: That was the big difference in the message. Where there are guys at grills, there's two boys are fighting. When the gears shift, one of the dads actually walk over. It goes from boys will be boys, which was an excuse to allow that kind of aggressive behavior, number one, to, two, hey, we don't treat each other that way. Joel: Sure. Chad: It's not masculinity. You're trying to throw this away as, well, they don't care about masculinity. That's total bullshit. What they're saying is we've evolved as a people, which we should, not all of us, and we should understand that we shouldn't treat other human beings like this, whether it's another guy or another female, right? It's a pure definition of what they believe masculinity should be. Joel: Okay. Chad: That's a great employment brand, by the way. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I think brand is what your customers say masculinity is, not what you say it is. So, we'll see. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. This is coming from a guy who likes to fight, right? I enjoy it as a sport, but I see that. Joel: Sure. Chad: And I agree with it. Joel: Yeah. You don't ... Yeah. Being a meathead does not automatically make you a catcaller and an idiot. Chad: Yeah. Joel: To me, masculinity is you're the opposite of that, right? Like, you're strong enough to honor people and be respectful and not hit people. Chad: And don't get me wrong, I've mansplained shit before, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: I've been put in my place. I've also ... I've been that dumb quote unquote masculine kid slash man. We all change, so I think this is a great opportunity to see a brand actually change and evolve and say, "You know what? You know what? That probably wasn't good when we did that shit back there." That's fine. Change your behavior and move on. Look forward. Joel: Fair enough. Let's hear from JobAdX and talk about swastika penises. Chad: It's a great segue. Joel: We'll be right back. JobAdX: With JobAdX's first birthday almost here we are proud of all we've accomplished with advertising clients, publisher job sites, recruitment marketing agencies, and staffing firms. Thank you for all the support and trust you placed in us. JobAdX: Since 2017, JobAdX has used the best of consumer ad text bidding and ad delivery to build an incredible programmatic job advertising exchange, and continue to rapidly grow our network of partner sites. JobAdX: We've also launched a feed inventory management platform called Switchboard, effectively offering our dynamic technologies to all job board partners, and we've developed our revolutionary live alert which eliminate latency and expired job ads via email. No more dead clicks or overages from job links whether open today, next month, or next year. JobAdX: For more information about our solutions please reach us and join us at JobAdX.com. Chad: Penises? Really? That's what we're going from? Joel: Swastika penises. Chad: Oh, okay. Joel: You got to throw that one in there, too. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Joel: You know what? I'm feeling older and older with so many of the societal changes and cultural and age and everything. It kind of sucks. I was looking at the lineup for Coachella this year. I knew and wanted to see maybe two of the bands that were there. I thought, "Man, I'm old." Chad: Yeah, but I think this is a great opportunity for you to actually get out, see those bands, and experience some of these new bands. You might find a new band to follow. Joel: Yeah. I used to have time to do that, listen to new bands. Anyway ... Chad: Yes. Joel: All right. Slack unveiled a new logo this week. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That it looks a little bit like a swastika with little I guess scrotums underneath, would you say? Chad: I'd say it looks like kind of like a Microsoft ... Like, their little square where they have four different colors. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Now, this has four different colors, but it looks like four different penises on top of each other. Joel: Yeah. Chad: I don't know that I see a swastika as much, but I do see that this ... Kind of like this stacked penis logo thing that ... Joel: Oh, that's funny because when I looked at it I immediately saw swastika. I was like, "Okay, penises, look for those. Okay. Scrotum, phallic symbol. Okay, got it." Yeah. The internet is blowing up with talk about the swastika penises that Slack has unveiled. Their old logo, as many know, was a hashtag sign. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Which to me works perfectly well. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I don't know why you need to change that. Companies get really overzealous with logo changes. Uber's changed it a few times, and Airbnb changed it to some weird V, upside-down V, thing. I don't know. It's very big now for agencies to want to push for logo changes for some reason. Chad: Well, it's a good way to get cash from a company. From the reports that we've seen, back in October of last year Slack had $900 million cash in hand, right? Joel: Oh good god. Yes. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yes. A report this week as well, Slack had apparently $640 million revenue predicted for next year. They had $900 million on hand. Now, they've gotten a ton of money, but nowhere near what we're talking about. It blows my mind to start talking about those kinds of numbers for a messaging platform. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joel: It's kind of crazy, dude. Chad: Well, I'm going to fault JZ for sending this podcast down the wrong road, because it's going to get worse, my friend, I promise. Joel: By the way, that's not the rapper JayZ in case anyone is wondering if Chad is actually that cool. He's really not. Chad: No, I'm not. Joel: No. Chad: Really not. Let's go ahead and transition into the next non-penis, or at least it starts out that way. Joel: Yeah. You've got some spare time on your hands, go look at Slack logos. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And have a good laugh. Chad: It's ridiculous. Last week we were actually talking about the Army's recruiting woes and how it was really hard for them to recruit, and how they were doing some really cool and innovative things with eSports. Joel: Yeah. Chad: This week, [Task and Purpose 00:30:19] had some more data on that. Actually, they were talking about an estimated 72% of individuals in North Carolina are ineligible to join the military due to being overweight, lacking the adequate education, or having a history of crime or drug use. 71% of people living in North Carolina are ineligible for military service. Joel: Okay, so you were in the military. Chad: Yeah. Joel: All right. I was not, which you can't tell by looking at me, but I wasn't in the military. Paint the scene for me. I'm a kid, I'm an 18 year old. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I go into the recruiting office. Do they look at you and go, "You're too fat?" Do they give you an IQ test? What is screening these kids out of the military exactly? What's the process? Chad: Yeah. Generally ... Okay. Depends on whether we're at war and we need to beef up military or not, because this will change, right? It always does. You go in, you take an ASVAB test, which is a test across all military branches. It gives you a score. They do some physical testing. They also do some medical history background things that kick a lot of people out. Chad: To be quite frank, as being a drill sergeant, an infantry drill sergeant, down in Fort Benning, Georgia, I had many an Army recruiter who I hate send me down range kids that are 40 pounds easy overweight, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: It's my job in 14 weeks to do one of two things, to hopefully knock 40 pounds off that kid's ass or he's going to break because of all the weight on ... Obviously gravity does things. Joel: If I'm just a high school graduate I couldn't ... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Would that be passing the intelligence test or do I still have to take the test of the ... From the Army? Chad: Yeah. You have to take ... No, you have to take the ASVAB, which, again, it's just one test for all military. Joel: Okay. Then, how hard is this thing? Chad: It's not hard, but it's not incredibly easy. A lot of it what it is today is it actually focuses on how you troubleshoot and how you think about solving the questions that they ask. To be quite frank, it wasn't a breeze, but it wasn't incredibly hard. Joel: With the Commander in Chief serving Big Macs and Filet-O-Fishes in the White House, it's no mystery why it all goes downhill, right? Kids see that. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Joel: Fast food, our president does it. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The world's just falling apart pretty much. Chad: Well, that, and then we're talking about not being able to have enough individuals in our military ranks in the first place for our national defense. Then, The Wall Street Journal comes out with a fucking op-ed or something like that that says women don't belong in combat units. Chad: It's like we can't find enough people as it is, but yet women don't belong in combat units. Again, me being a guy who's been in the infantry, if you can do the job I don't care who you are, right? If you can do the job, if you can physically do the job, then you should be there. Joel: Yeah. Chad: My whole thought process was am I healthy enough to pick up the person next to me if they're injured, put them on my back, and get the hell out of the AO, right? That was ... Joel: Yeah. Chad: Now, the next question I was asking is looking to things person next to me and say, "Are they healthy enough to do that for me?" Right? It's fucking ridiculous. Then, transition to the next piece, border patrol, they're having issues as well. There's no question. Joel: Yeah. Chad: But, there's this ... Thanks for sharing Tim Hawk's story from NPR, border patrol had paid Accenture approximately $13.6 million of a close to $300 million contract to recruit and hire 7,500 individuals into custom and border patrol. Joel: Yeah. That seems about right. Chad: Yeah. No, it does not. That's $40,000 per hire, number one. Number two, that's like a fucking $500 hammer, right? Within 10 months into this first year of this five year contract, Accenture had only two accepted job offers. Oh, god. It's fucking ridiculous. Chad: There's serious problems and they're having performance issues. There's no question whatsoever. Accenture was doing this with $300 million, right? A contract for $300 million. They had already been fronted $13.6. Chad: Then, they actually had to use the government agency's applicant tracking system when Accenture failed to deploy its own. With that kind of money, man, I can pull together a great team, a great process, and I guarantee you you'll have more than two fucking hires. Joel: Well, the good news is, according to a New York Post article, the Chinese Red Army is in no better shape than our Army. According to the article, the People's Liberation Army ... Chad: Yes. Joel: I guess they're not the Red Army anymore is now dishing out advice after one city saw more than half its candidates fail their physicals. More troubling than that is a masturbation problem. Chad: The Chinese military says excessive. Joel: Excessive. Chad: And too many video games are among the reasons its physical test failure rates have been ... You can't make this shit up. Dude, think of it. Joel: No, you can't. Chad: China's girl to guy ratio is totally out of whack. It's like five to one, or seven to one, or whatever the hell it is. What the hell did they expect? They'd better get their sex robot industry up and running quick. Robot: Shall we play a game? Joel: Yeah, well, eventually the robots are going to fight each other, anyway. All the fat, dumb people in the world can have sex with the sex robots. Chad: Oh, this is ridiculous. Can we go to an ad? Joel: Sure. We can go to an ad. Let's hear from ... Who we got now? Canvas. Yeah. Canvas will love being put on after that one. Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text, and so much more. We keep the human, that's you, at the center while Canvas Bot is at your side adding automation to your workflow. Canvas: Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. Canvas: We make compliance easy and are laser-focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at Gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's Gocanvas.io. Get ready to text at the speed of talent. Joel: Please tell me the Russian Army has similar issues. Chad: I have no clue. I don't even want to do any research on that right now at all. Joel: Let's talk about Glassdoor. Chad: Okay. Joel: Glassdoor opened shop in three markets internationally this week. They opened Hong Kong, Singapore, and New Zealand. Hobbits need jobs, too, apparently. My point on this is I've predicted that the Glassdoor brand will go away eventually. It'll just get sucked up by Indeed who's ... They're both owned by the same parent company. Joel: If anything, this move of growth says maybe they're not going to go away anytime soon. They're actually opening up new markets. The word is they're going to be opening up more places, more cities and countries this year. Yeah, little bit of news tip there. If you're doing business in Hong Kong, Singapore, and New Zealand your employees have a new place to go talk shit about you. Chad: Isn't that like Kununu? Are they trying to squeeze Kununu, do you think? Joel: It is interesting. Kununu a little bit more European. Chad: Okay. Joel: Indeed is most definitely in those areas and I'm sure have the reviews sections as well. Yeah. They're not huge markets. From a population perspective, you're looking at probably 15 million people with those three markets, so it's not super huge. Chad: Yeah. Joel: New markets aren't super hard to open, right? Chad: Yeah. Joel: A little bit of language thing, a little bit of whatever, a new URL, and you're off and running. It's not like a huge herculean effort to open up in some of these places. Chad: A little language thing. That's easy. That's not a big deal. Joel: Translation. Chad: Yeah. That is interesting because, as you have talked about, kind of Glassdoor coming under the Indeed umbrella, I agree that I see that happening, but I don't see it happening from a brand standpoint. We've talked about this before. Chad: I think this actually kind of bodes to what I've been talking about. I think they really want two brands that can try to own more wallet share. If they continue to go down this path they have a good opportunity to do that. Joel: If they continue on this path they will have proven Chad Sowash right for the first time on this podcast. Chad: Lies. Lies. Joel: All right. Gig economy, our final story in this painful episode. Chad: Okay. Joel: Many people probably know, at least in this country, that there's a government shutdown. 27 days at this point. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The longest in history. National parks are being flooded with fecal matter and trash. It's just a mess. It's horrible. Chad: [crosstalk 00:40:44]. Joel: So, no surprise, we've talked about this before, when people get unemployed or don't have something to do it's ... I think both of us agree that they're going to start gravitating toward the gig economy. Chad: Yeah. Joel: How can I make money? How can I on the side drive an Uber, develop shit, make a graphic? Whatever it is. We have some proof and a story this week abut the gig economy really might explode if more and more people get knocked out of work. Chad: Yeah, yeah. There's no question. Oh, man. 800,000 people. Those people, obviously they contribute to the economy every single day by spending money, and not everybody has a huge bank account that they can just draw from. All these 800,000 people are not millionaires, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: They've got to find ways. I actually saw a story last night where a guy was saying, "Hey, look. I had to go pull weeds for one of my neighbors. They gave me 20 bucks so that I could have gas money to get to ... To take my kid to his appointment." Joel: Yeah. Chad: Those types of things. They're looking for any way to survive during this bullshit that's happening. Joel: Yeah. I heard a number today that a very high percentage of Americans don't have more than $400 in a savings account for moments like this. With the federal workforce, you're looking at I think 16% of the population. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's a huge number of people. The story talked about Fiverr, another popular ... We talk about Upwork quite a bit, but Fiverr is another sort of place for people to pick up contract work, or gigs if you will, experienced 350% increase since the government shutdown. Joel: Yeah. We both think that a lot of good things growth-wise are going to happen with Upwork and Fiverr. We've talked about Microsoft potentially buying Upwork, or somebody. I think Fiverr's on the table as well because once the economy goes south these sites are going to explode. Chad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that was one area in Maryland, the Lexington Park area, that holds a very large percentage of the population there is obviously government workers. They experienced the 350% increase in gigs. Joel: Buy your Upwork stock today, kids. Don't take financial advice from me, and we out. Chad: We out. Stella: Hi, this is Stella Cheesman. Thanks for listening to The Cheese & Chad Podcast, or at least that's what I call it. Anyway, make sure you subscribe on iTunes that silly Android thingy or wherever you listen to podcasts. Be sure to give buckets of money to our sponsors. Otherwise, I may be forced to take that coal mining job I saw on Monster.com. We out. #Gillette #Slack #TheLadders #Branding #EmployerBrand #PPC #innovation #design #BorderPatrol #Accenture